# New saw advice



## Stooby (13 Mar 2014)

Hi I am new to the forum. I am thinking of getting a new scroll saw and wonder if there is any advice here on what is a good machine. I have seen lots about the Hegners but can't go as high as their variable speed models are.
I am on my first scroll saw, the Dremel moto saw. Things I like about it are the easy blade change, auto tensioner and vary speed. Things I don't like are the pin blades making detailed work impossible, lack blower, dust port that won't fit anything and limited to a few blades.
All advice welcome, thanks.


----------



## Chippygeoff (14 Mar 2014)

It is the most asked question on the forum, what scroll saw should I get. There are a lot of bad scroll saws out there and a few good ones. It;s down to what you can afford. If you go for one of the cheap imported ones from the far east your scrolling experience will be filled with frustrations and probably disappointments. The ultimate scroll saw has to be the Hegner and if you cant afford a new one then scan the ads and e-bay for a secondhand one, even a 20 year old single speed Hegner would be preferable to a new imported chiwanese saw.


----------



## Bryan Bennett (14 Mar 2014)

A very warm welcome to the forum Stooby, I totally agree with Geoff .I bought the baby of the Hegner family,the Multicut 1 single speed.When I bought it a very long time ago I didn't realize that there were different ones around.
I was very fortunate to have made the right choice without knowing it,it is a wonderful hobby to have.

Bryan


----------



## toesy (14 Mar 2014)

Welcome to the forum fella

What's a good saw? = What you can afford.

DONT do what I did and buy a brand new one for around £100, (these all look the same, and come more than likely out of the same factory) 

Buy a used one from eHay for a quarter of the price, this will have been used and tested by it's previous owner, you may also get some freebies with the machine.

Best thing to do is try and collect it, this way you will get to see it work and get some free advice.

Use that until you feel you want to invest more money to get better results, and then SAVE up, and get a second hand Hegner on eHay usually circa £175.00 plus, then do it.

Then you will be a happy chappy


----------



## Stooby (14 Mar 2014)

Thanks everyone. I made the mistake of reading up on this question on American forums. They really rate the Excalibur. Is the Hegner consider better in the UK?


----------



## Chippygeoff (14 Mar 2014)

The excalibur that is available in America is not the same as the ones available here in the Uk. The Uk versions are rubbish whereas the ones in America are a decent saw. There are several saws available in America that I would rate very highly but sadly here in the UK there is only one decent saw available as a new purchase but having said that there are saws that come up from time to time on e-bay etc that are older models no longer made but still a very good machine, like Deltas. The reason Hegners are rated so highly is that it is the only decent saw that is available here at a vastly inflated price. I have no regrets buying mine and in all the time I have had it I have not had a single problem, they just go on forever with a little TLC.


----------



## jonluv (14 Mar 2014)

Hi 
Just to echo what Gippygeoff says , you can pick up some older quality saws on ebay or gumtree. I got an unused Delta 40-540 for £30 an old Hegner multi 1 for £65 which I did'nt get on with but sold it for £140 and it got a Delta Q3 for £60.
If it wasn't for the Hegner getting such a good price I could not have bought my current saw.
I would like the USA Excalibur but the are rare in UK (I think)

John


----------



## finneyb (14 Mar 2014)

Axminster's Trade AWFS18 at £400 with variable speed and a 3 yr guarantee is half the price of the equivalent Hegner . Looks identical to the Hegners and performs just fine.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tr ... scroll-saw

Brian


----------



## ChrisR (14 Mar 2014)

Chippygeoff":36609lq4 said:


> It is the most asked question on the forum, what scroll saw should I get. There are a lot of bad scroll saws out there and a few good ones. It;s down to what you can afford. If you go for one of the cheap imported ones from the far east your scrolling experience will be filled with frustrations and probably disappointments. The ultimate scroll saw has to be the Hegner and if you cant afford a new one then scan the ads and e-bay for a secondhand one, even a 20 year old single speed Hegner would be preferable to a new imported chiwanese saw.



Welcome to the forum.

I second Geoff’s post.

Take care.

Chris R.


----------



## Stooby (15 Mar 2014)

Given the extremism price variation between the Axminster and similar Hegner are their any known issues about either that I should be aware of?


----------



## Stooby (15 Mar 2014)

Hello all, sorry for that lazy question. I have spent some time looking over old posts and the AWFS18 does look good to me. I see there are a lot of recommendations to fit the hegner quick release clamps to the AWFS18, is that easy to do? Also what is it best to stand it on, the Axminster stand suggest I would need to add an mdf sheet on top to accommodate the larger machine? And something to dampen vibrations?


----------



## Chippygeoff (15 Mar 2014)

When you see the AWFS18 first thoughts are that it is firstly a bargain when compared to the real thing, you read the spec and realise to get the equivalent Hegner you would need to spend three times the money, ot there a bouts. If you were to buy yhis machine from Axy then make sure you wear thick gloves when unpacking it as the underside of the table and the base can have very sharp and jagged edges that could rip your hand open. Secondly, it would have to be very firmly bolted down on a solid bench or stand. To all intents and purposes it is a Hegner in disguise but it is a long way from being Hegner quality. It is made in the far east like most other saws and is only a Hegner clone in appearance. The quality of the materials leaves a lot to be desired. Having said all that I know some people who have bought this machine and then got rid of it while there are others who have bought one and have stuck with it. At the end of the day it's what you can afford and if I were in your shoes I would want to see it in the flesh and try it out before I parted with my hard earned cash.


----------



## Farmer Giles (15 Mar 2014)

I bought this Proxxon scroll saw, about 150 quid including postage from Germany, its a cut above the 100 quid clones quality wise but I must admit I am not a scroll saw aficionado so there may be issues I don't know about, I couldn't say if these are better or worse for blade fitment etc. as I have had little to compare it with except a mates cheap clone. It takes both pinned and pinless blades and the blower works well as does the extraction. There is one second hand on fleabay now for 90 quid, pick up only though.

BTW, nice and heavy and doesn't vibrate across the bench.


----------



## Roughcut (15 Mar 2014)

Farmer Giles":3qwdfzx8 said:


> I bought this Proxxon scroll saw, about 150 quid including postage from Germany, its a cut above the 100 quid clones quality wise but I must admit I am not a scroll saw aficionado so there may be issues I don't know about, I couldn't say if these are better or worse for blade fitment etc. as I have had little to compare it with except a mates cheap clone. It takes both pinned and pinless blades and the blower works well as does the extraction. There is one second hand on fleabay now for 90 quid, pick up only though.
> 
> BTW, nice and heavy and doesn't vibrate across the bench.



It's good to hear that someone has another brand of scroll saw not often mentioned here.
I believe Proxxon have a decent reputation.
The only thing I have heard is that some Proxxon machinery is only really suited to short duty periods of use as the machine motors get hot.
That was from a Proxxon Band saw review I read somewhere.
I personally have no experience of Proxxon gear so this could be false information that I read.
How do you find the saw Farmer Giles?


----------



## Samfire (15 Mar 2014)

[*]I am not sure why so many people think the UK Excalibur is a poor saw, I have one and it works great for me. I wonder if other Excalibur owners are happy with theirs. It would be interesting to get a balanced opinion.
George


----------



## Farmer Giles (15 Mar 2014)

Roughcut":aelheakt said:


> It's good to hear that someone has another brand of scroll saw not often mentioned here.
> I believe Proxxon have a decent reputation.
> The only thing I have heard is that some Proxxon machinery is only really suited to short duty periods of use as the machine motors get hot.
> That was from a Proxxon Band saw review I read somewhere.
> ...



The motor seems fine and it generally has a quality feel about it for the cash. Presently I feel the saw is not being pushed by my skill level so is better than I am  There are some sensible and useful reviews on Amazon too, including a Hegner user.


----------



## Roughcut (15 Mar 2014)

Thanks for your reply Farmer Giles.
It's good to hear of people's experiences of other (not so much mentioned) brands of scroll saws to help give people more options when looking to purchase a scroll saw.
The amazon reviews look good.


----------



## finneyb (15 Mar 2014)

Stooby":1b7t7k5x said:


> Given the extremism price variation between the Axminster and similar Hegner are their any known issues about either that I should be aware of?



I have the Axi Trade AWFS18 - perfectly happy with it. I went thro the same decision making process as you are doing.

Personally, I can't see significant differences in the spec between the equivalent Hegner and the AWFS18, except the Axi is heavier at 29kg and doesn't have a split table ( I consider the Hegner split table to be a weakness). 

Suggest the main difference in price is due to the higher German wages cf to Far East and a poor sterling to euro exchange rate.

Does the Hegner quick release clamp fit? I don't know but would expect it would. Alternatively you can make your own using 4mm threaded bar with a couple of nuts and lever turn it - I use a small mole grip as the lever and it works fine.

Axi gives a 3 years guarantee on Trade kit and they do provide excellent customer service should it be needed. 

Brian


----------



## martinka (15 Mar 2014)

finneyb":16p1rino said:


> Does the Hegner quick release clamp fit? I don't know but would expect it would. Alternatively you can make your own using 4mm threaded bar with a couple of nuts and lever turn it - I use a small mole grip as the lever and it works fine.
> Brian



Yes it does fit, but it's not as simple as that to make your own. The Hegner quick clamp has a rotating piece at the inner end of the 4mm thread which stops the tendency of the blade to twist as you tighten it.


----------



## finneyb (15 Mar 2014)

martinka":2uxhfuwl said:


> finneyb":2uxhfuwl said:
> 
> 
> > Does the Hegner quick release clamp fit? I don't know but would expect it would. Alternatively you can make your own using 4mm threaded bar with a couple of nuts and lever turn it - I use a small mole grip as the lever and it works fine.
> ...



Martin,

I accept that Hegner Quick clamp has rotating piece as you say and I can see what they are saying about the blade's potential to twist. I've never noticed problems with the blade twisting using my method above. Mike's workshop has a lever that's been mentioned on here before and so far as I can see there is no rotating piece on that either ie its just like the method I use. Mike does make it clear that his lever is not a Hegner product.

Brian


----------



## scrimper (15 Mar 2014)

finneyb":2u6lxnn7 said:


> martinka":2u6lxnn7 said:
> 
> 
> > finneyb":2u6lxnn7 said:
> ...



My Hegner quick clamp does not have the rotating piece in it but I have never found it's absence cause any problems. I bought my Hegner in 1999 so it may be an earlier design quick clamp.


----------



## martinka (16 Mar 2014)

finneyb":2ge2or31 said:


> Martin,
> 
> I accept that Hegner Quick clamp has rotating piece as you say and I can see what they are saying about the blade's potential to twist. I've never noticed problems with the blade twisting using my method above. Mike's workshop has a lever that's been mentioned on here before and so far as I can see there is no rotating piece on that either ie its just like the method I use. Mike does make it clear that his lever is not a Hegner product.
> 
> Brian



Hi Brian, the ones Mike sells, as far as I can see, are just standard Bristol/indexable handles that he makes available to those who may not know about them, and it's a cheap alternative that does work. They ought to be especially good for people who have problems with grip, although I remember one of our forum members bought one but didn't like it. I've used one myself on a Jet saw (I pinched it off my mill  although on that one the screw is used to close the clamp and doesn't bear on the blade.



scrimper":2ge2or31 said:


> My Hegner quick clamp does not have the rotating piece in it but I have never found it's absence cause any problems. I bought my Hegner in 1999 so it may be an earlier design quick clamp.



I didn't know they made one like that, John, though it's not surprising I didn't know as mine is the only one I have seen.  It'd work the same as the old Draper setup I used which clamps between two allen screws. The one I used did twist the blade until I squared up the ends of the screws in the lathe. No doubt Hegner would square the ends of the screws during manufacture. The correct pressure helps as well, and as an experienced scroller that's something you would get right, so I am not surprised you never had a problem.


----------



## Bryan Bennett (16 Mar 2014)

The blade clamp that Mike sells for the Hegner seemed alright when I first started using it,it then started to bend the top of the blade.The problem might have been of my making by over tightening,I modified the Hegner quick clamp by drilling the edges and putting small steel dowels in.It now works very well.If has Martin says the end of the clamp screw does't rotate the screw will bend the top of the bend.
When I bought my Hegner,the quick clamp was a black steel plate,that you put under the screw on the top arm,when held in place you released the blade then put the hole,tighten the blade and release the steel plate. Tension the blade and carry on.

Bryan


----------



## finneyb (16 Mar 2014)

Martin,

Assuming we are talking about http://www.hegner.co.uk/Quick-Clamp-for-Piercework and we are not at cross purposes. I'm having difficulty understanding and visualising the rotating bearing surfaces within the quick clamp to prevent the blade twisting when tightening up. Can you help?

Another method may be to mod a push bike wheel quick release - subject to dia being suitable and length being adjustable. The shaft would need to pass through the thread and bear on the outside of the blade clamp. Then there would be no torque on the blade when tightening the force would be along the axis of the QR.

Brian


----------



## martinka (16 Mar 2014)

finneyb":3aoj098w said:


> Martin,
> 
> Assuming we are talking about http://www.hegner.co.uk/Quick-Clamp-for-Piercework and we are not at cross purposes. I'm having difficulty understanding and visualising the rotating bearing surfaces within the quick clamp to prevent the blade twisting when tightening up. Can you help?
> 
> ...



Here y'go Brian. I pulled it out a bit so you can see it better. It is held in place with a tiny o-ring.

The Delta blade clamps work on a similar principle to the bike quick release, although it closes the two sides of the clamp together instead of having a rod through


----------



## finneyb (16 Mar 2014)

Martin,

Thanks for the photo.
I need to think about it - I can't see the use/need of the rotating piece.

Brian


----------



## scrimper (16 Mar 2014)

finneyb":jw1xuo06 said:


> Martin,
> 
> Thanks for the photo.
> I need to think about it - I can't see the use/need of the rotating piece.
> ...



As I mentioned my clamp does not have it and works well without but I do see the point of it. The best saws have a true parallel action which is not 100% possible with the blade fixed in the top arm so with the normal Hegner clamp the knife edge allows the blade and clamp to pivot slightly and correct any see-sawing motion that the moving arms exhibit by design! this is why the top knurled knob is not normally tightened down on the clamp. 

With the piece work clamp the idea is that the knurled knob *IS* tightened on the the clamp to hold it in place for quick piercing changes, the rotating part that Martins clamp has allows the blade to pivot inside the clamp thereby ensuring a truly parallel motion.

With my clamp without the rotating part I just leave the top knurled knob slightly loose allowing the pierce clamp to pivot slightly but not enough to let the clamp fall out, this then gives me a almost perfect parallel motion but the one Martin has is better.


----------



## finneyb (17 Mar 2014)

scrimper":djf0ynog said:


> The best saws have a true parallel action which is not 100% possible with the blade fixed in the top arm so with the normal Hegner clamp the knife edge allows the blade and clamp to pivot slightly and correct any see-sawing motion that the moving arms exhibit by design! this is why the top knurled knob is not normally tightened down on the clamp.
> 
> With the piece work clamp the idea is that the knurled knob *IS* tightened on the the clamp to hold it in place for quick piercing changes, the rotating part that Martins clamp has allows the blade to pivot inside the clamp thereby ensuring a truly parallel motion.



Sorry guys still can't see it.
I agree with Scrimper about parallel action, pivoting etc. But I don't see how the rotating piece allows the blade to rotate.

In a 'knife edge' blade clamp the blade is held in place by compressing the two legs together. This is the case with both the standard method and the pierce work clamp. I don't see how the blade can rotate within the p/w clamp when it is sufficiently compressed between the legs to retain the blade. 

Looking at Martin's photo - the clean thread on the right must be in the threaded right hand clamp leg and the knob screwed hard against the other leg to pull them together and retain the blade. The rotating piece must be a smaller diameter than the clamp thread otherwise it won't pass through; so how does the rotating piece that is not in contact with the blade clamp allow the blade to rotate?

Brian


----------



## scrimper (17 Mar 2014)

finneyb":1gvxppt3 said:


> scrimper":1gvxppt3 said:
> 
> 
> > The best saws have a true parallel action which is not 100% possible with the blade fixed in the top arm so with the normal Hegner clamp the knife edge allows the blade and clamp to pivot slightly and correct any see-sawing motion that the moving arms exhibit by design! this is why the top knurled knob is not normally tightened down on the clamp.
> ...



Actually, thinking about it, I would say that the rotating part is more to do with stopping the blade moving out of line in the clamp as you tighten it!


----------



## jonluv (17 Mar 2014)

One superb Delta on Ebay up for grabs--- could not do better-- read reviews

John


----------



## finneyb (17 Mar 2014)

scrimper":1y9y1utu said:


> Actually, thinking about it, I would say that the rotating part is more to do with stopping the blade moving out of line in the clamp as you tighten it!



Scrimper thanks - I've seen the light

Brian


----------



## martinka (17 Mar 2014)

scrimper":gugyux6z said:


> Actually, thinking about it, I would say that the rotating part is more to do with stopping the blade moving out of line in the clamp as you tighten it!



Which is what I said in my first post in this thread.


----------



## scrimper (17 Mar 2014)

martinka":2eax1jrm said:


> scrimper":2eax1jrm said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, thinking about it, I would say that the rotating part is more to do with stopping the blade moving out of line in the clamp as you tighten it!
> ...



And looking back at said post I can confirm that you did. (hammer)

In which case considering that mine does not have said rotating part and that I have never had any problems with twisted blades when tightening perhaps Hegner make too much of this 'rotating wonder'! :mrgreen:


----------



## Stooby (18 Mar 2014)

Just a follow on question about the AWFS18. On the axminster site there is a section with a review of the Excalibur saying it is an excellent machine, better than the AWFS18 for fretwork as the arm lifts. They compare the AWFS18 to a machine with a difficult to remove blade. Sorry I closed the page and can't find it again, I got there by following the link sometimes at the top of this forum to a woodturning event. That type of small fine work is one of the reasons I want to move away from my current saw.


----------



## martinka (18 Mar 2014)

The advantage of the Excalibur (and, I think, the DeWalt) is that you can feed the blade through from the top. There's no denying the Hegner/AWFS18 can be a pain to feed the blade from the bottom once the job gets above a certain size or if the cut is in the middle of the job. In fact I ground some of the top arm stop away from the back of the frame so that the top arm would lift a bit further to give more room. A down side to this is that the louder bang when a blade breaks has turned me into a nervous wreck.


----------



## finneyb (18 Mar 2014)

scrimper":21r18k3c said:


> In which case considering that mine does not have said rotating part and that I have never had any problems with twisted blades when tightening perhaps Hegner make too much of this 'rotating wonder'!



Also, I feel that the Hegner pierce work clamp is poor design in that it will tend to spread the legs of the knife edge clamp, causing them to prematurely fail. If I understand correctly how it is used.

The standard use of the knife edge clamp compresses the legs together so it cannot be over stressed by tightening.

Brian


----------



## Stooby (18 Mar 2014)

The Excalibur seems to get bad reviews but is this not a big advantage?


----------



## martinka (18 Mar 2014)

finneyb":8oe5s9a2 said:


> Also, I feel that the Hegner pierce work clamp is poor design in that it will tend to spread the legs of the knife edge clamp, causing them to prematurely fail. If I understand correctly how it is used.
> Brian



I believe John (Scrimper) has had his since 1999, so if it's going to fail prematurely, it better hurry up. :mrgreen: 
Given the small amount of pressure needed to hold a blade, I really don't think it is going to happen.


----------



## Philip n (19 Mar 2014)

A youtube video from an Australian scroller pointing out the issues with the excalibur saw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfEg7uL2SVM


----------

