# carving tools what you think?



## selly (27 Sep 2011)

http://www.lidl.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/lidl ... _24590.htm


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## Dodge (27 Sep 2011)

in a word - Rubbish!

I was given a set of the Machine Mart version of the same as a gift by a relative - The steel is attrocious, they are as thick as a girder and lay in the bottom of my bench.

Save your money and buy some decent ones - You dont have to spend stupid money and you can get some excellent carving tools as cheap as chips at the car boot sales.

My opinion anyway

Rog


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## Melinda_dd (2 Oct 2011)

Any recommendations? I've seen a few sets for around £40-£50 but not sure if that's good or not
One of the sets is by record power


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## condeesteso (2 Oct 2011)

I fairly agree - I never manage to get to boot fairs, but ebay is next best. There are plenty of good ones at bargain prices. Look for names like Henry Taylor, Sorby and many others. But you will likely need to know how to sharpen them! Just checked ebay, there are loads, as usual. e.g.:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Twenty-Victor ... 803wt_1337

If you want new you will need to spend quite a bit. I have some Pfiell and they are very good but quite pricey, the rest of mine are vintage and wonderful!!


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## Melinda_dd (2 Oct 2011)

is there different angles for different tools or are they at the same angle?
I do have a grinder to do my turning tools on so I'm hoping I'll be alright
Any advice would be helpful


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## condeesteso (2 Oct 2011)

I'm no great expert on carving tools, but according to Henry Taylor (and others) an internal bevel is often beneficial. Generally what you do for the turning tools will be good for carving tools too, but you will need some slipstones or similar to hone internal edges. I tend to use fine wet'n'dry + spit, wrapped round any item to hand (screwdriver, drill bit, gimlet... anything).
Also I have found polishing is important - some leather bonded to a block of flat stock, plus Autosol metal polish. The back-bevel burnishes the cut as it makes it, but also the polishing process makes a super-keen edge but take care not to round the bevel (pay close attention to angles when polishing). But you are used to sharpening turning tools so you are close to there already. I urge you to look at the nice older ones on ebay!


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## Melinda_dd (2 Oct 2011)

Aleady in my watch list!!! just got ages to go... I'm not good at waiting!!!


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## jimi43 (2 Oct 2011)

Addis is the name to look out for on the carving chisel front...he was a Ward and Payne employee back in time long gone...you can find them at bootfairs if you are lucky....

The steel is just out of this world...expect to pay about a fiver each on FleaBay...but worth every penny.

Jim


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## yetloh (3 Oct 2011)

+1 for Addis, Jim. I've got a stack of them bought over a few years. Don't use them much but when I do need them they are ace.

Jim


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2011)

Cheapo are OK (you get what you pay for) but may need a lot of shaping and honing - but as a beginner you need the practice so that's good.


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## Harbo (3 Oct 2011)

Yes J B Addis - fantastic steel - I inherited a set:







They each have a No. and "Prize Medal" or something stamped on them?


Rod


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## bugbear (4 Oct 2011)

Jacob":390mn4zi said:


> Cheapo are OK (you get what you pay for) but may need a lot of shaping and honing - but as a beginner you need the practice so that's good.






Jacob":390mn4zi said:


> I'm beginning to think that the UK tradition of supplying unfinished tools is quite insane. Why do they do it?



BugBear


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

Trolling again


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## jimi43 (4 Oct 2011)

Jacob":3m7nsixr said:



> Cheapo are OK (you get what you pay for) but may need a lot of shaping and honing - but as a beginner you need the practice so that's good.



The issue is not with the lack of finish...although this is bad enough....it is the steel. 

Cheap steel...probably recycled washing machines mixed with mouldy Cheddar...can never be shaped and honed to produce a useful tool...ever...even by you using bits of rock mixed with diesel....

Tools made of cheap "cutting" steel are not "OK"....they are one of the main reasons potential craftsmen and women are put off the art forever and encouraging new members by saying that they are useable is downright irresponsible.

If someone setting out in this fine subject are going to spend time learning to care for and modify tools, they are better served practicing this on old Sheffield steel where the result will be fulfilling rather than being put off for life by trying to fettle supermarket rubbish.


Jim


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

jimi43":h2tulj1i said:


> Jacob":h2tulj1i said:
> 
> 
> > Cheapo are OK (you get what you pay for) but may need a lot of shaping and honing - but as a beginner you need the practice so that's good.
> ...


I got a Faithful set (probably the same as the Lidl offering). The steel was OK but they weren't very well shaped to say the least. But not so bad that anybody should be discouraged from attempting to use them. Have a go with anything IMHO!
Really "good" tools can be just as discouraging as they don't turn anybody into a craftsman overnight.


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## jimi43 (4 Oct 2011)

I rest my case......


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

jimi43":7h4m44ok said:


> I rest my case......


Do you do much carving yourself?


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## jimi43 (4 Oct 2011)

Jacob":3r7s000l said:


> jimi43":3r7s000l said:
> 
> 
> > I rest my case......
> ...



I haven't made a Koi or that beautiful girl and boy in the library but I have whittled the odd woggle or two... :mrgreen: 

Enough to know between a good and a bad tool and ALL the Faithful tools I have encountered are dross.

I will get one though...and prove this to you...seeing as you are hell bent on destroying another perfectly good thread. :roll: 

Jim


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

They aren't very good this is true. But "carving" can mean anything from chainsaw and axe down to fine engraving tools. If anybody wants to attack a piece of wood with some Lidl cheapies I think they should be encouraged. Good sharpening practice too.
I realise that this point of view does not coincide with the very strict orthodoxy of the toolies (only the best and most expensive will do etc) but it is perfectly valid. Maybe there should be a separate closed forum for tool fetishists.
Very many people would never have even begun to do their thing were it not for the availability of cheap kit. I had a Black & Decker drill plus stupid attachments for quite a long time.
If you see this as "destroying another perfectly good thread" that's your problem. I'm all for it!


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## yetloh (4 Oct 2011)

Jacob":2y5yv0qk said:


> Really "good" tools can be just as discouraging as they don't turn anybody into a craftsman overnight.



I have yet to meet someone new to woodworking (and I have met many) who thought that expensive tools would magically turn them into skilled crafts people. but I have seen people put off by rubbish tools - not least myself in my younger years when presented with a brand new Stanley No 4 which despite my best efforts I could not persuade to works. I, quite naturally in my view, thought the fault was with me. 

The point surely is that highly skilled people can get excellent results from mediocre tools but those who are acquiring skills find it much easier to get good results with really good tools. I have seen this enough times to know that it is true, so I don't buy the argument that really good tools can put people off. Yes, mediocre tools can be fettled and modified by the amateur to work well, but the beginner is unlikely to have the knowledge, skills and inclination to attempt this. I remain convinced that the best advice to those on a restricted budget is to buy few tools but buy high quality. This does not necessarily mean hideously expensive, because good quality is out there at reasonable prices e.g. Quangsheng planes. 

Jim


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

yetloh":3u5btgrd said:


> ...... a brand new Stanley No 4 which despite my best efforts I could not persuade to works. I, quite naturally in my view, thought the fault was with me.


But you can't be protected from these risks. The only way forwards is to have a go with whatever you have to hand.


> .........I don't buy the argument that really good tools can put people off. .....


Can be a disappointment to a beginner in that they don't quite do what is expected. But that's OK as long as they keep at it.
Most people who have learned anything, even to a high level, began with duff kit. First bike, guitar, cricket bat, woodwork tools and so on. It's normal.
Buy Lidl chisels - have a bash with them - just get stuck in! If you think you might like it then think of getting some better ones.


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## bugbear (4 Oct 2011)

Jacob":204psoso said:


> Buy Lidl chisels - have a bash with them - just get stuck in! If you think you might like it then think of getting some better ones.



With a set of (say) Ashley Iles carving chisels, supplied sharp and ready to use, cutting sweetly and leaving a good surface, yeah, a beginner might plausibly "like it".

If the tools perform poorly, or require tuning that a beginner either cannot do, or doesn't even know needs to be done, the results will be poor, and the beginner most unlikely to persist.

BugBear


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## LuptonM (4 Oct 2011)

I think you should just buy the best for the money your willing to spend i.e try and get the best deal as possible. Vintage chisels in good condition represent good value so I'd go with them. Also they will retain alot if value if trying to sell in the future whereas wih the lidl chisels you'd probably have to give them away

Sharpening carving chisels (which I have no idea about) is probably more important than the quality of steel for beginners. A beginner will have to sharpen the chisels eventually so it doesn't matter if they come sharp or not. Though I expect carving chisels to be tricky to regrind (is this done free hand?)

TBH the LIDL chisels don't look too bad. My dad bought some cheap ones some time ago and they look much worse (though he would never pay £20!)


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## yetloh (4 Oct 2011)

bugbear":kyeat8jo said:


> Jacob":kyeat8jo said:
> 
> 
> > Buy Lidl chisels - have a bash with them - just get stuck in! If you think you might like it then think of getting some better ones.
> ...




Exactly.

Jim


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## powertools (4 Oct 2011)

Jacob":36hk5rqx said:


> yetloh":36hk5rqx said:
> 
> 
> > ...... a brand new Stanley No 4 which despite my best efforts I could not persuade to works. I, quite naturally in my view, thought the fault was with me.
> ...



Iv'e got to say that I agree with Jacob. 
I almost anything any of us have ever done we have started with the basics and if we have enjoyed it we progress.
I started my woodworking with a Stanley Bridges drill and all the kit that went with it far from put me off it sparked my interest.
If I had felt that to be able to have good results from the start I would need to spend a fortune on tools I may well not have started.
There is a thread running at the moment were a member needs a pyrography tool to write their name on 2 items and the best advice is to spend around £150 that is madness they could do it for less than a tenner but if they think having done it that they like to do far more then that is the time to spend out on better kit.
As for the Faithfull tools comment being of poor quality as posted above is beyond belief


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## bugbear (4 Oct 2011)

powertools":17w1fm49 said:


> .
> There is a thread running at the moment were a member needs a pyrography tool to write their name on 2 items and the best advice is to spend around £150



If you check the thread, I recommended a marker pen.

BugBear


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## powertools (4 Oct 2011)

bugbear":2bmctm19 said:


> powertools":2bmctm19 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...




Maybe you did and as you did you will see my point


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

yetloh":a8img6zn said:


> ......
> I have yet to meet someone new to woodworking (and I have met many) who thought that expensive tools would magically turn them into skilled crafts people.


I've met several. One persistent notion is that a router (electric) is the first and most essential purchase. Or they have been drawn towards brass knobbery and spent a lot of dosh on LV, LN etc only to find that they still can't do woodwork. :roll:


> I have seen people put off by rubbish tools - not least myself in my younger years when presented with a brand new Stanley No 4 which despite my best efforts I could not persuade to works. I, quite naturally in my view, thought the fault was with me.


So you didn't do any woodwork after that?


> ...... I remain convinced that the best advice to those on a restricted budget is to buy few tools but buy high quality. .....


I think the most important purchase is wood. It tends to get overlooked. I think a lot of people spend more on tools than wood. Speaks for itself.


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## Lons (4 Oct 2011)

Just to put in my twopennerth.

A beginner to carving (the assumption being shaping a reasonably sized piece of wood - not a tree trunk with a chainsaw or a tiny netsuke), is easily tempted by the tool kits of 6, 12 or 18 different profile chisels. After all, most of us are easily seduced by nice shiny tools.  

However, it is an absolute certainty that the vast majority of those tools will rarely if ever be used and someone starting out needs only 2 or 3 decent quality chisels to produce acceptable first results and thereby learn whether carving is something to be further pursued or not.
(My golfer first attempt, inspired by a Peter Berry article was with a 1/2" bevel edge chisel and an old 3/4" std gouge plus a scapel and penknife for the fine detail. Not easy with rubbish stringy mahogany but enough to know I had an interest.)

If carving is not for you, then those tools are not wasted as they can still be usefull in general woodworking occasionally. If the craft becomes a passion then you buy tools individually to suit your perceived needs.

It is definately possible to carve with cheap (and homemade) chisels, you just need to spend more of your time sharpening and even more touching up the edge whilst working (that's the secret whatever you use anyway), but surely the reason to carve should be enjoyment and with good steel it is a much more pleasant experience.

I have a sizeable range including Addis, Pfeil, Henry Taylor, Ashley Isles and several others and in common with the other carvers I know, the majority of the work is done with no more than half a dozen chisels.

More important is sharpening equipment and the skill to use it as well as a reliable method of workholding.

The only othe thing I would add is that despit me saying try any piece of wood which looks promising, it is better for a beghinner to start with lime, basswood, fruitwood or even a decent bit of pine as very difficult wood can give a wrong impression. The mahogany I used could easily have put me off and my next attempt with lime was a revelation.

Bob


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## jimi43 (4 Oct 2011)

All my carving chisels have been bought from bootfairs at no more than 50p a go.

They all needed sharpening and shaping which had the additional benefit of my having to learn how to do this on tiny gouges etc....something which I am glad that I had to learn and benefit from the experience.

So quality tools do not have to have prohibitive prices.

It is my opinion that "Faithful" tools are not of a quality that I would give house room...others may have a different view...fine...

I don't happen to like A2 steel either but that is a personal choice having tried the stuff and including the maintenance of the steel. I was impressed by T10 which seems to have the quality and hardness of A2 but with the pleasure of sharpening of 01.

In any field I find that the enjoyment of the subject is the ease at which the tool used performs and the pleasure of the finish....of course you can hack away at wood with a tent peg...I would just rather not!

I'm sure the original poster has now enough data to make an informed choice....which is the idea of the thread in the first place...

But one clear point that must be made...quality tools do not have to cost huge prices...a common mistake.....secondhand is a great way to go for beginners....always will be. 8) 

Jim


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## Jacob (5 Oct 2011)

Yes 2nd hand is good and cheap. I like Bobs 2 chisels and a penknife idea. Yes a good set of top class Ashley Iles would be good. By all means have a go with Lidl cheapies. Main thing is to get stuck in even if it's with a sharpened up old file and a lump hammer. Holding device important, bench plus vice a good start.
It's also OK to accumulate a collection of lovely tools in a leather roll, all anointed with camellia oil - and never use them, if that's what turns you on!


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## bugbear (5 Oct 2011)

Lons":e2oxuqmg said:


> However, it is an absolute certainty that the vast majority of those tools will rarely if ever be used and someone starting out needs only 2 or 3 decent quality chisels to produce acceptable first results and thereby learn whether carving is something to be further pursued or not.



In the 80's Woodworker ran a series on carving, and they sold the chisels the author was demonstrating. It was a very small number of chisels, with coded handles for ease of selection.

I forget (it's in my filing system somwhere) how many chisels were in it, either 4 or 6. The course covered gothic, bas relief, linen fold, and figurative.

All with 4 (or 6!) chisels.

About the only thing carving forums seem to agree on is - don't buy a set! Choose your style of carving, and buy (decent) induividual chisels as needed.

BugBear


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## condeesteso (5 Oct 2011)

I haven't seen a decent argument here against buying second-hand. There are plenty of Isles, Sorby, H Taylor etc available and many bargains to be had. I know they will probably need sharpening / tuning, but the cheap new ones will too and at least the steel of the good old ones will beat the cheap new, hands down.
I accept the argument against sets if buying new, but if I can get say 10 older carving chisels for say £20 (it has been done) I'll find out which I use a lot by having the choice... otherwise how will I ever discover the ones I use the most?
And on sharpening, we all need to learn to do it anyway (whether a plane, a chisel, whatever... we cut wood) so there's no real escape from that. And I admit I find sharpening carvers well to be quite difficult... but that is the nature of the tool.


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## GazPal (5 Oct 2011)

I agree with Jacob and think the set being sold by Lidl doesn't look too bad and - even if in need of re-grinding - should serve well for anyone interested in learning to carve on an amateur basis. The degree of work necessary to make them serviceable isn't that great (A basic touch-up grind and whetting) and the steel holds a reasonable enough edge. For less than £20 a beginner will find him/herself with a basic set of carving chisels, without needing to invest too heavily or needing to trawl car boot sales/ebay for "better" chisels - that he may not even recognise - are very probably in need of just as much fettling. Searching for bargains tends to accompany an element of knowledge concerning the pieces you're searching for.

Another aspect to consider is whether or not a novice is capable of recognising the chisel for the job. At least buying a set of this nature amounts to having a reasonable selection from which to chose and a particular chisel can easily be replaced if it isn't up to scratch. The original chisel only cost £1.66 and may have failed, but at least the learner has been able to test drive his interest in carving and tool preparation, as well as come to know which chisel/chisels he may need when/if he chooses to invest in higher end tools or specialise in a particular area of carving.

A set may prove unnecessary, but learning from a basic selection does pay dividends when tutoring yourself around basic and more complex carving exercises. The point is learning which chisel is capable of doing the work, as well as the manipulation of tools and materials.

The surest means of quenching a beginner's interest is to tell him he needs to sell off major bodily organs in order to raise funds to invest in the best tools or trawl car boot sales when his interest isn't all that great. Especially when there's a high likelihood of his interest faltering early, without him advancing to a stage anywhere near carving a statue of "David" or "Venus" from exotic woods. The same stands for the approach to hand planes (There's nothing wrong with new Stanley/Record planes) where you don't need a selection from LN/Veritas, as well as the topic of pyrography which is essentially based around the use of a heated iron/basic soldering iron to burn patterns into wood/leather.


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## Jacob (5 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":bjtwg8dz said:


> I haven't seen a decent argument here against buying second-hand. ,,,,,.


Only that they aren't always there just when you want them. And it's a bit of a gamble especially if you aren't sure of what you want/need


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## Melinda_dd (5 Oct 2011)

ok, so after watching this thread with interest I have been watching the ones on fleabay. They have already got up to 51 pound, and they still have 5 days to go. Unfortunately however good they maybe which is probably very good, I don't want to spend loads on my first chisels not knowing if i'm gonna get on with it.

The lidls set has been purchased! They look ok... Needs sharpening but expected that. ..... We'll see!


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## Jacob (5 Oct 2011)

Good luck!
I had a look on ebay but it looks like a minefield. Many of the groups are not "sets" but are just a random selection of odds and ends. Lot of stuff overpriced too.


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## bugbear (5 Oct 2011)

Here's a slightly better eBay search

Tricky area if you don't know your stuff, and they're not always cheap.

Tit-bit of information; In the era when there were lots of carvers (East end of London was a centre) a retiring or deceased carvers tools would sell at a premium over new ones, since he would have already done the work of fettling them.

BugBear


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## powertools (5 Oct 2011)

I'm sure that these tools won't be of the highest quality but I along with many others would be interested to know if they have kept your interest in woodwork or have put you off for life.


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## LuptonM (5 Oct 2011)

I found my dad's carving tools (at least they look identical) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-2502 ... B001C7NE7Q . These ones are definitely a waste of time since I've handled them in person.The lidl ones have to be better!


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## Lons (5 Oct 2011)

The problem for a beginner is that given too large a selection of chisels can be difficult to choose the correct one and despite what the books and experts say, with few exceptions, it is not an exact science which needs a specific profile for a specific cut. When starting out, I know I was impatient to produce something that at least resembled what I was trying to do and the vast majority of hobby carvers will never get to a stage of needing numerous tools. I have a friend who was a semi pro carver and artist and he produced some amazing work, especially fine details in faces and hands and his collection of chisels was around a dozen.
I had the pleasure of watching an old walking stick maker from Northumberland about 20 years ago when he was helping my mate with his carving nightclasses. To my eternal shame I can't remember his name now and he was about 80 then, I do know he published a booklet and made sticks for the royal family. Anyway he produced some rather "dead" carvings of shooting scenes etc but the detail in them was astonishing - he used 4 chisels and a couple of files!

I haven't counted my chisels lately but many of them are there because I love to own tools and they were too good to turn down. e.g. I got 22 of them by a wanted add in the local paper. Guy who sold the was in his eighties and had never used what were his fathers tools. Some sadly too rusted but the remainder - well worth having.

My favourite chisel is a Pfeil 1/2" fishtail and I recon I do 60% + of my cutting with that alone.

Bob

_edit: Blimey - just realised I've written another bloody essay - must get out more :? _


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## bugbear (6 Oct 2011)

Lons":3939mhmx said:


> _edit: Blimey - just realised I've written another bloody essay - must get out more :? _



Your essay was a pleasure to read.

BugBear


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## Lons (6 Oct 2011)

bugbear":1jc23xxt said:


> Lons":1jc23xxt said:
> 
> 
> > _edit: Blimey - just realised I've written another bloody essay - must get out more :? _
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol: Guess I'm not the only one who needs to get out more then :roll:


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## condeesteso (6 Oct 2011)

A couple of thoughts: BBs search - very impressive!
And which ones to get? - it's the eternal problem. Isn't every workshop populated with tools, many of which are rarely if ever used. That happens because it takes time (probably years) to discover which are best for what you do. And as time goes by I think you use fewer of them. BUT to discover which those great ones are, you need to get them first and that involves getting some you won't use much.
Bob's story about the guy with 4 chisels and 2 files makes the point because they were the ones he USED (what's in the shed??). And many great makers are in part famous for how few tools they use, or how dodgy their workbench is... etc.
So my point is - you find the best tools for you over time, but in the process you acquire a load that you won't end up using.
Then, one day you start acquiring tools you know you won't use - but that is another story, for another day.


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## powertools (6 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":2u57rwhd said:


> A couple of thoughts: BBs search - very impressive!
> And which ones to get? - it's the eternal problem. Isn't every workshop populated with tools, many of which are rarely if ever used. That happens because it takes time (probably years) to discover which are best for what you do. And as time goes by I think you use fewer of them. BUT to discover which those great ones are, you need to get them first and that involves getting some you won't use much.
> Bob's story about the guy with 4 chisels and 2 files makes the point because they were the ones he USED (what's in the shed??). And many great makers are in part famous for how few tools they use, or how dodgy their workbench is... etc.
> So my point is - you find the best tools for you over time, but in the process you acquire a load that you won't end up using.
> Then, one day you start acquiring tools you know you won't use - but that is another story, for another day.




That is so true.


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## bosshogg (6 Oct 2011)

Just bought the set of fostner bits from this weeks Lidl Monday madness £2.99, not sharp enough for using out of the box, but a quick lic with my diamond (also Lidl) honing tool and wow brilliant. Don't knock something just cause it's cheap, a good tradesmen can just about work with any tool...bosshogg  


> Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
> Albert Einstein (hammer)


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## condeesteso (6 Oct 2011)

GazPal":1uvmlrtm said:


> (There's nothing wrong with new Stanley/Record planes).



This thread is about carving tools and I do like to stay on-thread :lol: but I regard that as bad advice. They are dreadful. The old ones are massively better, and less than half the price at the VERY most.


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## GazPal (6 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":1otoqcbf said:


> GazPal":1otoqcbf said:
> 
> 
> > (There's nothing wrong with new Stanley/Record planes).
> ...




Bad advice. On which basis? Whilst I respect your point of view regarding Stanley and Record hand planes I expect the same in return, but please let's not pluck quotes and resort to using them out of context (I'd mentioned new hand planes as an example of how new, useable tools needn't break the bank). The basis of my perspective rests upon professional experience as a cabinetmaker : luthier using carving and carpentry tools daily for in excess of 40 years and yours is? My son is presently apprenticing as a cabinetmaker and hasn't suffered any problems using his set of Stanley hand planes. My hand plane maker of choice is Record and my everyday working hand planes range in age from 1860 - 2007, but most pre-date 1975. I don't have a problem advocating the use of new tools manufactured by the above makers and few of those I know in the trade would steer away from them. Such tools fit well within the budget of those who can't afford / justify purchasing LN / Veritas tools, nor have the energy or time to expend upon potentially restoring / fettling older pieces of kit.

In terms of carving chisels, I work using a selection from in excess of 33 chisels of various types and sizes. I began with a very basic set of six and added to/replaced them over the years. Choice of chisel ultimately depends upon the detail I'm carving, but I make no bones about the fact that there's nothing wrong with buying a full set of chisels, nor singles if one wishes to and there certainly isn't anything wrong in someone casually spending their pennies on a cheap chisel set if he / she wishes to gain a feel for carving BEFORE going on a treasure hunt or spending more than they paid for their cheap set on one chisel. 

Yes, SOME old timers made do with a small number of tools, but the number doing so was minimal, whilst others worked from multiple tool chests and cabinets (My grandfather, gr grandfather and gr gr grandfather worked from multiple tool chests). Which was the better option? I'm not a romantic and the answer tends to be neither, because both approaches have merit and ones approach depends upon working style and preferences.


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## GazPal (6 Oct 2011)

bosshogg":3krgvisx said:


> Just bought the set of fostner bits from this weeks Lidl Monday madness £2.99, not sharp enough for using out of the box, but a quick lic with my diamond (also Lidl) honing tool and wow brilliant. Don't knock something just cause it's cheap, a good tradesmen can just about work with any tool...bosshogg
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more. :wink:


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## Melinda_dd (6 Oct 2011)

powertools":2idbzyxw said:


> I'm sure that these tools won't be of the highest quality but I along with many others would be interested to know if they have kept your interest in woodwork or have put you off for life.



I will let you know how I get on..... if I have any fingers left!
Nothing would put me off my woodwork!!! even when I have the worst time in my workshop/tiny shed! I still have that itch to do more, read more, learn more about anything wood!!

Kind of still on thread...... vices? I don't want to spend a fortune tho, as this will be the first carving I have ever done.
Or is there a homemade something i could use whilst playing?


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## bosshogg (6 Oct 2011)

As a postscript, I recently offered to regrind a set of Chinese chisels for a neighbour, you know the kind plastic wallet of four, one each 1/4" 1/2" 3/4" and 1", wooden handle with flimsy ferule at the end of the handles for hammer to strike, well I brought up new edges with a honing guide and a course diamond plate, then polished the edge on my Escher stone. Following a good bit of mixed work the edge was still capable of sharpening a pencil (not so easy with a blunt edge) The moral is, don't judge a book by it's cover as the saying goes , sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised. The honing guide was a Faithful brand, something like £3.49 which I have re shaped all my irons with, no apparent deterioration, diamond plates Lidl's, set of three £2.99, was using the fine one today, terrific performer. All done on a bench made from scrap pallets and a reclaimed solid core door blank £0.00
you don't need money just a good imagination and try try and try again mentality...bosshogg  


> "There are always two choices. Two paths to take.
> One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy." (hammer)


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## Lons (7 Oct 2011)

Melinda_dd":gxhlnj2u said:


> Kind of still on thread...... vices? I don't want to spend a fortune tho, as this will be the first carving I have ever done.
> Or is there a homemade something i could use whilst playing?



:lol: How long is a piece of string? :lol: :lol: 

A multitude of ways to hold a carving but it very much depends on what type e. in the round, relief, miniature, huge.

very easy to use an existing vice whether machine or woodworking or a B&D workmate, G clamps, carvers screw etc. There are also many home made devices - just do a search on Google to get inspiration.

I made the one in the pis, more than 20 years ago, cribbed from a woodworking Mag. It was supposed to be a prototype but worked well for lightweight carving and I never replaced it.

I suspect you'll already have something to try out with even if somewhat restrictive initially.

PS that simple rabbit has been sitting there for 10 years  the intended recipient is too old for it now :lol: :lol: 

cheers

Bob

.






.


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2011)

Melinda_dd":vogou0we said:


> Kind of still on thread...... vices? I don't want to spend a fortune tho, as this will be the first carving I have ever done.
> Or is there a homemade something i could use whilst playing?



Tricky question. Sort of.

(minor sidebar; whilst hand tool woodworking can be cheap, one of the key requirements
when doing lots of stock prep with hand planes is a very heavy/rigid bench. This will
be a good deal more expensive than the bench needed for power tool work)

What sort of carving are you going to try? I'm guessing chip carving is out, since you've
bought chisels (not knives), but that still leaves bad-relief, gothic, linen fold panels,
acanthus leaves for furniture, claw and ball feet for tables, or figurative "in the round"
carving, abstract, to name but some...

Most of these have distinct work holding requirments.

I would also suggest finding a slightly more specialised forum; I don't think
we have many carvers here, although some things from general
woodwork are applicable. 

BugBear


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## condeesteso (7 Oct 2011)

Gary ! (I know this is about carving chisels but this warrants a response.)
I seem to have annoyed you.
I simply said that new Stanleys and Records were not good, and that the old ones are far better and far cheaper.
I am absolutely convinced that a new Stanley plane isn't worth tuning as it will take far too long and never work well. And for a beginner it's near useless as it will never work straight out of the box.
We do seem to agree on the old Records and Stanleys and your planes are pre 1975? (Some of the best I have are Record SSs, and pre-1920 Stanleys). 

So if you want to explain why a new Stanley No4 at say £65 is better than an old Record No4 for say £30... do so, but just stick to facts.
The rest of your long response seems irrelevant to the point I made.


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## jimi43 (7 Oct 2011)

I don't think that you have to be a professional to see instantly the difference between turn-of-the-century cast steel (1900 not 2000!).....20s steel...pre-WWII steel and pre-shed steel.

There has been a progressive cheapening of the raw materials and processes to the point where most tools available for "the trade" are made from recycled George Formby grills in some Far Eastern factory..... :mrgreen: 

I accidentally saw a "Record" by Irwin (ha...ha...) spokeshave in BBQ the other day and I was astounded how far down the road to cheap tat they have gone....

I won't be swayed but if anyone wants to pick up their tools next to the dog food...please go ahead....have fun....it's all part of the learning process.

I might be accused of sounding snobbish...far from it....just because I won't buy my tools in a supermarket until Waitrose starts selling them...... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :twisted: :twisted: 

Jim


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## powertools (7 Oct 2011)

Now you have upset me, there is nothing wrong with George Formby grills


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## dunbarhamlin (7 Oct 2011)

bugbear":2t2vjfy4 said:


> (minor sidebar; whilst hand tool woodworking can be cheap, one of the key requirements
> when doing lots of stock prep with hand planes is a very heavy/rigid bench. This will
> be a *good deal more expensive* than the bench needed for power tool work)


Sorry, I can't agree with that. A very sturdy bench can be made in a long morning out of a few fence posts. Doesn't even need fancy joinery, and cost probably comparable to one of the better workmate knockoffs.
And from a safety point of view, a bench for portable power tools wants to be no less sturdy.


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## Jacob (7 Oct 2011)

dunbarhamlin":k6fbf7qa said:


> bugbear":k6fbf7qa said:
> 
> 
> > (minor sidebar; whilst hand tool woodworking can be cheap, one of the key requirements
> ...


Agree. The green woodworkers have tuned it into an art form with shave horses and other gadgets


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2011)

dunbarhamlin":2ppcjqt2 said:


> bugbear":2ppcjqt2 said:
> 
> 
> > (minor sidebar; whilst hand tool woodworking can be cheap, one of the key requirements
> ...



I exert a damn sight more force on bench when using a jack plane for stock prep than anybody
cutting joints (etc) with a router ever will.

My bench, designed for handwork, has 4" legs and a 3" top. If I was going to be a power tooly, I'd probably
have used 2" legs and a (single layer) 3/4" top.

BugBear


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## flounder (7 Oct 2011)

I now have images in my head of George Formby boxing and George Foreman playing a Ukelele!


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## bosshogg (7 Oct 2011)

powertools":240nxch0 said:


> Now you have upset me, there is nothing wrong with George Formby grills



Tried playing mine just to see...plink-a plink-a-plink...I'm leaning on a lamp post at the corner of the street.
in case a certain little lady goes by..._ damn, there goes another piece of bacon and all my sausages _ :lol: :lol: :lol: 

...bosshogg


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## jimi43 (7 Oct 2011)

flounder":3c3tzq5d said:


> I now have images in my head of George Formby boxing and George Foreman playing a Ukelele!



There are two types...the George Forman grill and the George Formby grill....the latter is a second and doesn't come with a box!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

I'll get me coat.....  

Jim


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## GazPal (7 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":9rry316k said:


> Gary ! (I know this is about carving chisels but this warrants a response.)
> I seem to have annoyed you.
> I simply said that new Stanleys and Records were not good, and that the old ones are far better and far cheaper.
> I am absolutely convinced that a new Stanley plane isn't worth tuning as it will take far too long and never work well. And for a beginner it's near useless as it will never work straight out of the box.
> ...



You used an exclamation mark and not I. If I'd been annoyed I would have said so, but I do find your perspective a tad blinkered in favour of old tools over new. 

Facts. My son's Stanley hand planes (#'s 4, 4.5, 5, 6 & 7, 90, 92, 93) were bought for him (By me) last year and needed no fettling in order to work and produce decent shavings once the frogs were adjusted and blades whetted (Approx. 15 mins each). Yes, of course my Record/Stanley/Union, etc. planes and tools are predominantly pre-1975. This is because I began woodworking and buying tools back in 70-71, plus inherited cabinetry tools from my forebears.

However, whilst buying old tools in need of minimal work is perfectly possible, most are in need of work and this can lead to greater cost if/when replacing or repairing parts. 

I'd not said new Stanley planes were better than old Record planes, as they're pretty much equal when tuned (Frog adjusted & blade sharpened), but - as touched upon earlier - buying an old hand plane (Any make) brings with it the risk of inheriting an earlier owner's mistakes. Whereas you may be keen on tool renovation, not everyone wishes to have to revitalise a piece of kit before using it. Especially if a beginner.


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## powertools (7 Oct 2011)

jimi43":nmrgh3s9 said:


> flounder":nmrgh3s9 said:
> 
> 
> > I now have images in my head of George Formby boxing and George Foreman playing a Ukelele!
> ...




Mine came with a boxer


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## powertools (7 Oct 2011)

I have to say that I have until today never been into a Lidl store only because there has not been one near me until a new one opened in Luton a couple of weeks ago.
Needing some amber fluid for the weekend I called in and I looked at the carving set and it looks good for the money but as hand tools are not my thing I passed however 4 things from the tool section next to the dog food did fall into my basket I will tell more on the bargain tool thread over the weekend.
The selection of beers is very poor but as a supply of useful kit at silly money it looks promising.


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## condeesteso (7 Oct 2011)

Hello Gary. I'll leave the last word to you (after this):
"I'd not said new Stanley planes were better than old Record planes, as they're pretty much equal when tuned (Frog adjusted & blade sharpened)"
Now I don't actually believe you have any old Records (with the crucible cast blade), because that statement is so profoundly untrue.
I was given a new Stanley No4 by a neighbour a few years ago, still in its box. I checked the sole, concave at least 6 thou. Put it back in the box where it remains to this day. Plastic knob and tote, poorly bedded frog, cheesy cap-iron...


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## Jacob (7 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":3b0vzsea said:


> ...
> I was given a new Stanley No4 by a neighbour a few years ago, still in its box. I checked the sole, concave at least 6 thou. Put it back in the box where it remains to this day. Plastic knob and tote, poorly bedded frog, cheesy cap-iron...


Yebbut did you try planing with it? To be realistic 6 thou is nothing. Plastic knob and tote - you get what you pay for, they have no bearing on the utility of the plane. 
What does "cheesy cap-iron" mean?
They all need "commissioning", after which they are OK.


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## GazPal (7 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":3k0tfe41 said:


> Hello Gary. I'll leave the last word to you (after this):
> "I'd not said new Stanley planes were better than old Record planes, as they're pretty much equal when tuned (Frog adjusted & blade sharpened)"
> Now I don't actually believe you have any old Records (with the crucible cast blade), because that statement is so profoundly untrue.
> I was given a new Stanley No4 by a neighbour a few years ago, still in its box. I checked the sole, concave at least 6 thou. Put it back in the box where it remains to this day. Plastic knob and tote, poorly bedded frog, cheesy cap-iron...


 
Believe what you will, but which aspect of hand plane tuning can't you understand? Frog adjustment includes seat adjustment if necessary and they tend not to take long to re-seat. 

I'll ignore your comment regarding my supposedly not owning planes with crucible cast steel irons. :lol: 

The argument is endless in terms of plane blades and the many alloy steel variations they're made from. Whether you wish to consider Record's crucible cast steel, tungsten steel, or tungsten vanadium steel (Depending upon era/production period) I have a good selection of their irons with normal and stay-set cap irons and find all (Including their new irons) are capable of taking and holding a good edge, but they're easily swapped out for other irons in differing alloys of steel or forms of lamination. The steel alloy used obviously affects cutting, but not necessarily handling characteristics which stem from the combination of iron and iron holder (Complete hand plane body). Hence the number of Frankenplanes in existence.

Regarding your friends problem plane and tool selection in general. Quite possibly the best approach toward tool selection is to choose from a number of samples and cherry pick the best for oneself in the way the majority of craftsmen used to (Carpentry and masonry being two crafts with which I'm particularly familiar) and I have done since before being apprenticed as a cabinetmaker all those years ago. This approach to hand tool selection is not necessarily possible now due to the rise of internet trading and distance sales/mail order, but it was the normal approach when craftsmen purchased tools via brick and mortar shops retailing professional tools. The principle reason for this preference is that hand tools differ from sample to sample and none are identical in heft (Potentially toe/heel heavy or well balanced or even bent, twisted like a corkscrew, or straight). Pick up a potential dud like the one your friend fobbed off on you and the best approach is to discard it if you feel there's a problem that can't be easily addressed. 

I've three new/boxed Stanley hand planes (#'s 4.5, 5 & 6) waiting to be commissioned for my son's second set of planes and none have the problems you've alluded to, but I do tend to deliberately choose each from a selection instead of accepting the first sample that's handed to me. I inspect everything before paying for a hand tool, as it's easier to return something across a counter top than later find there's a problem and have to return to the shop in order to exchange for another or request a refund. Yes, newer bench planes tend to have plastic handles, but varnished timber and painted metal handles can prove just as tacky during use unless their annealed finish is rubbed out and you keep your hands dry. I don't have a problem with whether or not a hand plane has a timber or plastic handle as handles are soon adjusted (Carved,scraped & sanded) to suit my hands and seldom remain in "factory finish/form".


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## jimi43 (7 Oct 2011)

GazPal":2bhxcwcb said:


> .......... I have a good selection of their irons with normal and _*stay-set cap irons*_



How are your toes Gazza....if you have survived this makes you a true master of the falling cap iron...you are aware of this aren't you?! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink: 

Jim


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## GazPal (8 Oct 2011)

jimi43":gkpynvat said:


> GazPal":gkpynvat said:
> 
> 
> > .......... I have a good selection of their irons with normal and _*stay-set cap irons*_
> ...



Through habit, I tend to wear steel toe capped shoes/boots in the shop Jim, although I've heard of exocet S-S nose pieces hitting their target toes on more than a few occasions. :wink: 40+ years in the trade and I still haven't reached true Jedi status yet. :lol: 

It's funny you should mention the debilitating effects of falling stay-set nose pieces, but can't recall ever having one drop on my tootsies or disappear among shavings on the floor, although I did used to fumble a little before growing used to them. It'll now probably happen later today or sometime soon.  I think it's just a case of being well used to working with stay-set cap irons and sticking to a given routine when touching up irons with them fitted. All I do is remove the nose piece as I lift the blade from it's seat and replace it as I re-seat the freshly whetted iron. One of my younger brothers uses Clifton hand planes and their new version of the stay-set, combined with their irons and the overall feel and heft of their planes makes them a lovely piece of kit. If setting out again I'd personally invest in Clifton planes, but I'm nicely settled into using my selection of Records and will leave that sort of buying decison to my sons.


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## jimi43 (8 Oct 2011)

That's good to hear Gary....because I do hear tell there are type that were made just after the war from melted down Messerschmitts that have a homing action. They have been known to come out of the sun and are particularly adept at evading bench tops. :mrgreen: 

I am considering fixing rare earth magnets to the side of my bench to deflect their trajectory on the way down but I feel this adds to the cost of the plane, money which could be better spent buying dog food in Aldi..... :wink: 

Stay safe...enjoy your woodworking and most importantly...keep wearing the steel toecap boots.... 8) 

Jim


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## GazPal (8 Oct 2011)

jimi43":2c2obywc said:


> That's good to hear Gary....because I do hear tell there are type that were made just after the war from melted down Messerschmitts that have a homing action. They have been known to come out of the sun and are particularly adept at evading bench tops. :mrgreen:
> 
> I am considering fixing rare earth magnets to the side of my bench to deflect their trajectory on the way down but I feel this adds to the cost of the plane, money which could be better spent buying dog food in Aldi..... :wink:
> 
> ...



A couple of strategically placed speaker magnets should foil escape attempts and deflect inertia and trajectory. :wink: 

Back to hiding in the workshop with my "it's about time I made a" new tool chest project


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2011)

Jogge Sundqvist at it again
And you can see the tools he used.


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