# workshop legalities



## neilyweely (15 May 2008)

I am hoping to move soon, and was thinking about using the garage as a workshop. However i have since found out there is no garage!

So how do I stand legally about building a wooden structure in the garden to use as a workshop. I believe there is a way I can go about this without having planning permission, does anyone know any more about this?

I have had all sorts of run-ins with the building regs guy in the last few weeks, so really could do with avoiding him if poss.

I hope to be able to make specialist kitchen units to compliment carcasses bought from magnet etc... I have run into problems with units not fitting, and having to use a towel rail, wine rack or the like to fill a gap,and am so sick of this that I am gonna do something about it!

Help please, silly person requires advice!

Thanks guys.
neil


----------



## Oryxdesign (15 May 2008)

I would think your problem is going to be more about running a business from home than from putting a shed in the garden, depends on the neighbours.
Simon


----------



## kityuser (15 May 2008)

a friend of mine was planning a garage type shed in his garden.
Looked on the web, thought that he had made all the right choices to negate needing planning approval.
I persuaded him to contact the planning office any and check, and he was basically told that there are some many "hidden" rules that he had better submit plans.
Gues what..... it needed planning for some small petty reason that I can't recall.
wasn't on the web..... strange.
It would seem the local planning office DON'T actually want you to be able to decide yourself.  just want your fee.

he got planning approval and built it, but that isn't really the point is it?
Why couldn't he find out ALL the rules?

he was told on one occasion by the planning officer that its basically impossible for "joe blogs" to decide if he needs planning permission on his own.
seems so , especially if they won't tell you all the rules.


I'd check with your local council.

Steve

ps when his plans were published on the internet (by the council) he had objections. They were over-ruled because they were along the lines of "I won't like it" or "he might start a buisiness" :evil:


----------



## skipdiver (15 May 2008)

Basically the rules are:- no more than 30sq mt floor area,no more than 4 mts to the highest point(usually the ridge) from the highest point of the surrounding land and mainly of a non combustible material i.e brick/block and tile.No nearer than 5 mts from any point of the building to any point of your house and it has to be more than 20 mts from a highway or public footpath.If you want to build in timber then it has to be at least 1mt from the boundary lines.

The other issue is running a business from home.This is a no-no in two ways.The council won't let you and it will invalidate your mortgage agreement,supposing you have a mortgage.

I built a workshop at my last house and stuck to all these rules only for an enforcement officer to come round from the council as a result of a complaint from one of my neighbours.He couldn't get me on anything except the height.I intended to put 150mm thick paths all round when finished so did the roof 4.1 mts high so it would be 3950 when finished.He wouldn't accept this so i had to lower the roof by 100mm.Luckily i hadn't yet tiled or felted so it wasn't too much grief but they can be pernickerty sods.

I am about to start a workshop at my new place but will take my chances and go ahead with it.Luckily i know most of the planning officers from my job and have done work for some of them but it can be a risky strategy to not check first.


----------



## skipdiver (15 May 2008)

Forgot to mention the electrics.They have to be signed off by a registered sparky to comply.


----------



## neilyweely (15 May 2008)

ok, thanks for that, so far!

So how about this;

I will build a workshop/shed with a timber frame and a concrete floor. It will be a hobby shed, ostensibly for messing around in, and perhaps I will experiment with some scraps and see whether or not it is a viable proposition to make units!

Or maybe I will carry on trying to find somewhere I can rent out cheap!

I got a funny feelin my neighbours-to-be are gonna take an instant dislike to me! Shame that!

I am hoping I can cram a mini-production-line into a single garage! At the moment I have crammed tools into every space available in the flat (I mean everywhere- wardrobes, down the side of the washing machine - there are a couple of routers in the dishwasher!) and you can imagine the strain it puts on my relationship. I am in desperate need of some secure space.

Maybe I'll go for a drive to some of the local farms and see what's available. One of the guys on the forum got a container, with power, for a song, and it was in my area!

Any suggestions?

Thanks folks.

neil


----------



## wizer (15 May 2008)

I don't see what the problem is? As long as you are reasonable and abide by the planning regs, you will get permission. Lots of people here have done it. Don't be put off by the council, they work for US.


----------



## neilyweely (15 May 2008)

wizer, my friend, I don't know what gave you that impression, you've been reading the rules again, haven't you?

The council here, in Bedford, are NOTORIOUSLY bad, and make life as difficult as possible for everyone. I recently had an application turned down on my own house, grade two listed cottage, built 1690, for windows.The original windows are still in, and we proposed to leave them and very, VERY carefully install sympathetic secondary double glazing. In other words we were going to get a matching rear made up for the windows. It was going to cost a small fortune, but you really could not tell the difference. The application was refused, on the grounds that the sunlight on the windows would reflect in a different pattern to the other windows on the other cottages in the terrace (of three!!!). So we were not allowed to save the environment in this case. 

Truly beaurocracy gone mad.

I had to replace every other tile with a vented tile on a job the other day to appease a rather irate building regs fella.

you can't win. got to go, have baby in hand now, typing difficult.

cheers

neil


----------



## Digit (15 May 2008)

I think you must have run into the one I knew Neil.
Pre 16C thatched cottage, Grade 11 listed and the thatch need repairs, so being a good boy, (I learnt susequently) I applied for a grant for the repair. 
NO!
But if you replace the thatch with tiles then of course we will be only too pleased to help!
A pint of beer for the local publican and I had a semi retired thatcher on the job, and cheap, within a week.
I applied for a grant here in Wales as well when we moved in.
NO!
Your house has no foundations!
8 courses of visible brick above ground level must have been invisible to them.
I loathe officialdom, they are a pain in the rectum!

Roy.


----------



## BradNaylor (16 May 2008)

Digit":8uky4zls said:


> I loathe officialdom, they are a pain in the rectum!
> 
> Roy.



There is a perversity in the psyche of anyone who would want to be a council official, a traffic warden, a 'Community Support Officer' (plastic plod), or a sunday morning football referee.





Not to mention forum moderator....

:lol: :lol: :lol:


'It was a joke' he cried, as they dragged him away in irons...


----------



## Smudger (16 May 2008)

Our local council require planning permission for raising or lowering any boundary between the house and the street.

That includes hedges, so you can see where this is going...

They also charge a fee for storing materials (even for a few minutes) on the roadway next to the skip you paid a hefty fee to leave in the road. 

They even have people who drive around checking these things.

I suppose it helps to pay for the speed humps, road markings and 'traffic calming' measures that bedevil the place...


----------



## Anonymous (16 May 2008)

_____


----------



## skipdiver (16 May 2008)

I deal with BCO's on a regular basis and find that massaging their ego works a treat.Most times i have already decided how i am going to do that roof,timber sizes and spacings etc.But i always make a point of asking their opinion so they can get their TRADA tables out and check safe span lengths.I then tell them that their way of doing it was a really good idea and something that hadn't occured to me.They lap it up and i now find that they hardly ever check what i do.

The last one i got was fresh out of college and looked about twelve.I couldn't resist bombarding him with questions and the poor lad got in a right state.It amused me for a while anyway.


----------



## Digit (16 May 2008)

What have I started? Hope none of the mods work for the Council planning dept! :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## skipdiver (16 May 2008)

Obviously hit a raw nerve Roy.I dont mind them telling me what to do at work because the customer ends up paying for it but when i do stuff at home and have to pay someone to come and check my work when i probably know more than they do.....................phew! deep breath.You get the gist.


----------



## garywayne (16 May 2008)

*Neil.*

I noticed Skipdiver listing certain regs, but forgot to mention, although you can go to 30 sqM, your shed can not be any larger than, I think it is 70 quM without planning permission, (in my area anyway). 
Also in my area, your shed can be closer than 1M to the border as long as you have at least 1/2 an hour fire retardant insulation each way.

My shed, which is 3M x 10M and over 70quM, is
1.57M from my conservatory.

I went to my local council with plans and ask them there if I would need permission. They wrote back to me within a few days saying I would need permission because my shed was larger than 70 quM. That was the only reason.

So don't get sucked into the 30 sqM thing. It didn't cost a thing to find out wether I needed permission, just to get it.

Good luck with your project.


----------



## skipdiver (16 May 2008)

Just been on the planning portal and it mentions nothing about that.Worked out the cube of my last workshop and it was 96.When the bco visited me about it he never mentioned that at all.Maybe it is just this area.I do know that 70 cube is the permitted development right afforded to anyone in a semi or detached house.Maybe this is where the confusion lies.

In fact i asked a bco about garden buildings and he told me you can have as many as you like as long as they meet the criteria and are more than 5 mts from the house.Not sure if they have to be 5 mts between buildings.

I would also point out that i am not giving advice expecting it to be slavishly followed.Merely pointing out what anyone can find out for themselves.


----------



## garywayne (16 May 2008)

My apologies  

My house is a semi detached.


----------



## Digit (16 May 2008)

As for a BCO not telling you something do what I did when I built my garage. Ask two, one said I did need planning consent 'tother said I didn't!

Roy.


----------



## skipdiver (16 May 2008)

No need for apologies Gary.The problem is in the interpretation.I suspect you needed planning because of the proximity to your conservatory.The 1mt rule comes into force if the building is of a combustible material.If it is "substantially" non combustible then it can be nearer to the boundary line.

Except of course if your neighbours complain under the party wall act.But that's a whole other can of worms.


----------



## Digit (16 May 2008)

Then of course you get planning consent for the new build next door to me! 
Large plot with mature trees all along the boundary betwixt us and none on 'tother side, so they build it up close to the trees. 
The trees are Scots Pines, notorious for shallow rooting and dropping branches. 
Two stories high and with gutters that fill with needles, seeds and cones about five times a year. 
Then for the next miracle they put the kitchen door on that side, complete along windows so they can look straight at my workshop and garden shed, wonderful view, same with the garage. 
On the other side there is thirty feet of clear space, no trees, no blocked gutters, and no windows either! 
They had trouble selling it! :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## Shadowfax (16 May 2008)

You guys are never going to come to a satisfactory conclusion all the time time you confuse "planning" with "building regs".

Some of the above has been associated with planning and permitted development and some of it has been associated with the Building Regulations. They are not related at all.
Planners will tell you how much you can build in your garden -officially.
A BCO will deal with the Building Regulations and will be concerned, for example, with the distance you can build a structure from a boundary where it is not essentially fire resistant in construction. That is covered by the Building Regulations and is not related to planning permission.
Basically, if you want the right information pick up the 'phone and dial up your local authority and ask your question of the people who have the right answers but try not to confuse planning permission with approved works under the Building Regulations.
It will be worth the price of the call and should leave no room for any doubts.
Cheers.

SF


----------



## Digit (16 May 2008)

As I pointed out earlier SF I did just that, spoke to two different people a week apart and received two totally opposite answers. 
Not encouraging. 

Roy.


----------



## Shadowfax (16 May 2008)

This is what I mean about confusion. BCO's do not deal with planning consent, Digit.
I expect you are talking about two views on a technical point concerning Building Regulations but I'm not sure.
I suppose there can always be different interpretations of the Regulations but what I am saying is that the people who can answer anybody's questions concerning planning or building regulation are the local authorities in the area concerned. That is their job and they should be there to help.
In the event of a dispute a determination will be made by the Secretary of State.
My advice is still to contact the Planning Office or the Building Control office or, indeed, both of them and ask the questions there rather than on here.
Just my attempt to help.

SF


----------



## chicken_house_man (16 May 2008)

I thought the planning portal said you could cover upto 25% of your land with outbuildings


----------



## Digit (16 May 2008)

The question I asked was 'do I need planning consent for a garage' then answered the questions they asked me.
One said yes I did need planning consent.
A week later same question and the answer was no!

Roy.


----------



## Shadowfax (16 May 2008)

The point I am trying to make is simply that planning permission and anything to do with planning is not the same thing as building control.
One is wholly to do with town planning and one set of legislation while the other is concerned with building correctly and safely in accordance with Building Regulations which are controlled by entirely different legislation.
There is no connection between the two and they should not be lumped together or played one against the other.
So when Digit says he asked a Building Control Officer about planning consent I immediately think he was asking the wrong person.
Ask a planning officer about planning and ask a building control officer about building control. The former deals with development and the control of it while the latter deals with the actual construction stages.

I know you can sometimes get different answers from different people but show me where that never happens!
Cheers.

SF


----------



## skipdiver (17 May 2008)

Yes,you're right.I do know that planning and building regs are different entities and perhaps my use of the term bco was used generically.I would also point out that if i went to the council planning department on monday morning and asked to speak to someone about planning or building regs,a nice gentleman called Barry would come and deal with my request.The same Barry who came down to a job i did recently near the council offices in his bco hat.There is some convergence of the two but "technically" you are right.


So lets put this all in a nutshell.If you stick to the criteria you do not need planning permission.The building regs don't even come into it.

If it were me(and very shortly it will be)i would/will just get on with it.


----------



## neilyweely (17 May 2008)

In bedford there is a 'little soho' area, covered in indian restaurants and the like, but it is a conservation area, and looks ok, until recently....
One of the indian restaurant owners got into trouble doing up his place as he had put up neon signs and his door opened out onto the street. Silly of him, but not a capital sin. They jumped all over the poor sod, cost him a fortune. Then, not six months later they thought it a good idea to put a 'YMCA' great big modern monstrosity over the road. It is HIDEOUS!
And now we have burglaries, muggings and sexual assualts. Now I am not saying it is all connected to the YMCA, but I tell you what, I will say what others are thinking - a GOOD portion of it is!

So, all I can say is - Bloody well done BEDFORD COUNTY COUNCIL in all your various guises! You have ruined what was a great little area. People are now leaving in droves. 

And if you know Bedford you know what I am talkin about. People do deserve a second chance - yes - but you need control, and sensible planning. Neither of these seem to be prevalent in this case.

Neil (who has had his rant- but is right anyway)


----------



## Digit (17 May 2008)

Same here in Cardigan Neil. First they knocked down part of the castle defense walls to build a Woolworths then years later they decide to replace Woolworths with a new, larger shopping complex. 
Cardigan is strictly controlled on such subjects as the shop fronts must blend, the town being predominantly Victorian/Edwardian, till the plans came forth for the Woolies replacement. It was terrible! Nobody liked the plans for an Avant Guard structure and the council were forced to reject it, so the the developer got the hump and left. 
Then of course if there are any members here from the Alesbury area we could discuss Fred's Folly! :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## Rich (17 May 2008)

Huh, you want to see Reading, no, belay that, you don't, it used to be a beautiful victorian town, now thanks to a labour controlled council it looks like a great big shopping mall with owners only stopping for a year or so, it only caters for the under 40's, the supposed big spenders, they'll learn soon enough when the dosh runs out, then you'll see another exodus of shopkeepers, all they are, are big plate glass monstrosities with no character, children from eastern Europe with cards in their hands asking for money and swearing at you when you decline to give, I know I mus'nt live in the past but when I used to help my mum with shopping on a saturday morning it was a pleasure, now we don't bother with town but go out to the superstores, which is giving in really.

dismayed,
Rich.


----------



## skipdiver (17 May 2008)

I read somewhere that the old part of York,the shambles etc was only saved from the developers flattening it by a few forward thinking councillors,who were put under intense pressure to back down but luckily held firm.Countless other town centres weren't so lucky and succumbed to the sixties craze of "modernisation".My own town being a good example.


----------



## Digit (17 May 2008)

Most of the trendy shops are closing in Cardigan as well, the youngsters are finally having to face reality money wise.
I read recently that the economy was kept afloat by the cost of housing, having been priced out of home ownership the younger generation have been spending their cash in the high streets.

Roy.


----------



## Rich (17 May 2008)

Digit":1y8xrgal said:


> Most of the trendy shops are closing in Cardigan as well, the youngsters are finally having to face reality money wise.
> I read recently that the economy was kept afloat by the cost of housing, having been priced out of home ownership the younger generation have been spending their cash in the high streets.
> 
> Roy.



And when that's gone that's another one I'll be supporting :shock:


----------



## CWatters (17 May 2008)

Some of the info posted on this thread is wrong and some confused..

*Planning Permission:*

If you want to run a business from an outbuilding you are likely to need plannng permission for "change of use" because residential and business are in different "use classes"...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/englan ... 94558.html

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/englan ... 37913.html

Assuming the workshop is just for hobby use....

Most but not all houses have "Permitted Development Rights" when they are built. These allow a certain amount of extending and new building without need for Planning Permission... 

If the workshop will be more than 5 meters from the house see this page about Outbuildings...
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/englan ... 33173.html
If closer than 5 meters it counts as an extension. See this page on Extensions...
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/englan ... 06572.html
In particular note the volume requirements for extensions...
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/englan ... 23608.html

If in doubt...most councils have a free and quick "Permitted Development Enquiry" proceedure whereby you can send in a sketch and a form and they will tell you if you need PP. I've just been through this process and have been told I need PP for a shed as I'm in a Conservation area and the shed is more than 10 cubic meters in volume.

*Building Control*

All building work has to comply with the Building Regulations but generally you won't need to get Building Control Approval for an outbuilding provided:

The floor area is less than 15 sqm.
or
The floor area is between 15 and 30 sqm but is more than 1 meter from the boundary or constructed from fire proof materials.

Having said that...individual aspects of the construction may require Building Control approval if you DIY rather than use an "competent person". For example the electrics: You will either have to use an electrician (who should give you a certificate) or if you DIY you need to involve Building Control. 

That's the short version. If in doubt ask the planning officer or your BCO.


----------



## skipdiver (18 May 2008)

Yeah,it is getting a bit confusing isn't it.If i wasn't such a numpty with 'puters i would have just posted the link from the portals as you have.

I think the best thing to do is just go to the council and talk to them.They are always friendly and helpful where i live.


----------



## neilyweely (25 May 2008)

folks, this is great!

This is why I read this forum, I now have a whole new plan of attack for my workshop, and am hoping to keep costs down even more.

It seems that some of the stipulations must vary from one area to the next so I think I shall just go ahead and worry later. Obviously I shall stick to what I believe to be the case, and if i am wrong then will have to cross that bridge when I come to it.

Garywayne, skipdiver, digit, cwatters, rich and all - thanks for your input so far, thats great.

Of course, the biggest sin in bedford for years was when the council saw fit to knock down the old cinema, a fantastic building with GREAT history (the beatles played there, all sorts..) and left it for years as an empty hardcore strewn plot that they charged 20p to park on!!! Nobody could believe it, and yet when you tried to find out who authorised it nobody knew what you were talkin about!!! And I cannot have my windows cos of the way the light reflects. ahem. muppets!

I think you need special training to be a BCO and the like!!!
I can imagine, eh?

Thankyou, and goodnight.

Neil


----------



## skipdiver (25 May 2008)

Glad i could be of some help.Knowledge is power.

I am about to embark on a major refurb of my new house.Going to build a workshop and two extensions so i will have the bco round checking up and asking for cash.I'm doing my extensions on a building notice and i know for sure they will stop me at the start and make me get a report on the drains from the water board.The water board will want their pound of flesh too.Last time it was £100 for me to dig test holes,find all the sewer pipes,draw a plan and send it to them.The £100 was for administration apparently.The building regs have just gone up again where i live for the umpteenth time.I hate red tape with a passion.

My workshop will be done without any notifying of the council from me.If anyone complains,i will take my chances.I am not advovating others to do this but that's the way i am going.

Good luck with your project Neil.


----------



## neilyweely (25 May 2008)

steve

I think this is the way I am going I'm gonna go as well, I have a very poor relationship with the building regs guy, after the last job when the people I was working for decided he was picking on them because they were indian!! So he thinks I accused him of being a racist, and now I have a hell of a time whenever we meet.

Truth is, I am sure he is not a racist, just incompetent. Which I suppose isn't so bad, he makes everyones life hell regardless of colour! Great!

I am thinking of working in a different county so I do not have to cross 
swords with him anymore!


Till then I shall feign ignorance.

cheers guys

neil


----------



## Digit (25 May 2008)

It's the people who enforce them that give me the creeps Skip, some of them seem to make them up as they go along. 
Read this, 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... do2502.xml 

My home is roofed with asbestos cement and I've done quite a lot of research on the subject and how we got into this mess; 
Asbestos cement is actually classified as a Class one carcinogen; along with the contraceptive pill and wait for it! BEER! 
Give some people a little bit of power and they lose all shred of common sense. 

Roy.


----------



## Maia28 (26 May 2008)

Steve & Neil,

you don't have to use the local authorities building control officers. When we had our extension built last year I used a company called JHA Innovation Ltd (http://www.approvedinspector.com/). The inspector was actually very helpful, but also pragmatic and flexible to site conditions. I think that the increase in volume of building regs has actually deskilled the trade and lowered standards, builders now build to meet the (minimum) regs rather than to do the job as well as possible. 

When I rebuilt my workshop last year, I didn't bother with planning or building control and don't foresee any problems although I live in an ANOB. If anyone asks, I just reclad and reroofed it. However, I'm building a field shelter for our ponies now and am not sure whether to approach the planning office as the field is quite visible and in an AONB. Tricky subject this, but I hate beaurocracy and dealing with jobsworths.

Andy


----------



## Digit (26 May 2008)

> builders now build to meet the (minimum) regs rather than to do the job as well as possible.



That's always been the case Andy.
I read a book sometime ago with the exciting title of 'The History of the Brick', well one has to doesn't one?
According to that learned tome modern day design/regs require a vertical damp course which is normally achieved with a cavity wall construction.
The cavity wall was originally an idea that permitted the use of bricks in a 'stretcher' formation, thereby decreasing the number of bricks in the building and reducing to a minimum the number of bricks that had to be cut.
The old timers considered that to be 'jerry building'.

Roy.


----------



## Maia28 (27 May 2008)

You are, of course, absolutely correct Roy. I have a problem with the 'tick box' approach to standards and measurements. We see it in schools, universities, hospitals, local authorities etc and it almost entirely fails to measure anything of worth and obscures the actual process or property that is being measured. The result is that it becomes meaningless and encourages methods of meeting the measurement, rather than the standard. In terms of building regs, this leads to lots of inspections that are irrelevent and standard approaches to getting the tick rather than the best method of doing the job. Its also removes the skill from the worker as it does not rely on their judgement and experience.
Andy


----------



## Digit (27 May 2008)

> Its also removes the skill from the worker as it does not rely on their judgement and experience.


 
The whole of society is going the same way Any. When I lost my left eye and had to register a disabled I was sent a form, (what else?) 
'Please tick Appropriate Box,' unfortunately many boxes were not appropiate therefore form cannot be filled in accurately. 
No Problem! We have another form, (what else?) that covers that, 'please explain the difficulties that you have.' 
So why not put that on the first form? 
Answer. Too many people can't answer questions or write properly! 
The other day a set of GCSE papers were sent out complete with the answers. I wonder how many people failed the exam? :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## Anonymous (27 May 2008)

_____


----------



## Digit (27 May 2008)

:lol: :lol:


----------

