# First Hollow Forms



## RogerB (19 Feb 2009)

These are my first attempt at hollow forms how can I improve. 
Comments Please.


















Roger


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## miles_hot (19 Feb 2009)

I like the taller one the most - I think the profile works better than the other which has a sort of slumped look to it.

Damn good for a first attempt though! Wish I had the skills to do it 

You might want to move this to the turning forum for a faster response...

Miles


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## CHJ (19 Feb 2009)

Roger it looks like you are doing well, I personally prefer the first taller item.



RogerB":1yknuomt said:


> These are my first attempt at hollow forms how can I improve.



As for how you can improve, I'm afraid I have not a clue, artistic interpretation is not my forte'.

I would say as long as you can achieve a good consistent finish then it is down to your personal preference for form. 

As I see it you either develope themes that you can envisage or you base your forms on existing gallery trends until such time as you develope a better understanding or preference.

No doubt the more accomplished members in this field will be along to give you pointers.


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## RogerB (19 Feb 2009)

Miles 

How do I move it to the correct forum.

Roger


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## CHJ (19 Feb 2009)

Roger, drop a PM to DaveL or another of the mods, they will do it for you.


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## miles_hot (19 Feb 2009)

RogerB":2ijgo7ei said:


> how can I improve...Comments Please.Roger



On these forms where you have a wide top and people can easily see and touch the internal surface you need to have finished it to the same standard as you have achieved on the outside.

On the shorter one, it might be the angle of the picture etc however, the foot looks a little rectangular - almost as if the tenon used to hold the form inthe chuck has been left on...

The exterior finish on the tall vessel is lovely and as I said earlier the profile is really nice.

Frankly I'd be technically chuffed to have done either and artistically very very chuffed to have done the tall one - looking forward to the next ones ")

Miles


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## Soulfly (19 Feb 2009)

The general shape and style is a little anodyne and lacklustre. If you can get some understanding of shape, design and form etc into your work you will reap the rewards. Also hollow forms....why? Totally unpractical things. Make something useful that people want.


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## miles_hot (19 Feb 2009)

Soulfly":2wvuym67 said:


> The general shape and style is a little anodyne and lacklustre. If you can get some understanding of shape, design and form etc into your work you will reap the rewards. Also hollow forms....why? Totally unpractical things. Make something useful that people want.



Roger, have a look at some of the other stuff which has not reached Soulfly's high standards :roll: and judge if you like them 

As for "hollow forms, why bother" - I have to say that they have a practical purpose - they can look and feel bloody fantastic. Art, what's the point!  One day I will be good enough to be doing hollow stuff just to show off the beauty of wood as well as the other more functional stuff

Miles


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## wizer (19 Feb 2009)

Fantastic first attempt. I like both actually. What tools did you use and what are the timbers?

Ignore that Soulfly moron, he's just some nerd who trawls the internet getting kicks out of insulting people with nothing to back it up.


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## RogerB (19 Feb 2009)

Thanks Wizer and Miles 

I realise what Soulfly is like after looking at his other comments to forum members. 

Am of to the lathe now to have another go now Hollow forms and maybe a Goblet or two!! 

Wizer 

I used a Rob Sorb Hollow master for the inside after drilling out the centre with a 57 dia Dewalt self feeding bit with the feed screw removed. What a drill bit. 

Both are splatted Beech and are finished in soft wax. 

The tall one is 4" dia x 61/4" ht 
The other is 5 1/4 Dia x 2 3/4" ht 


Roger


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## CHJ (19 Feb 2009)

Roger, don't put yourself under too much pressure to produce complex shapes, good simple forms in a variety of woods can be very beneficial in establishing good tool control and familiarity and can lead to a better understanding of the benefits of different bevel angles etc.


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## boysie39 (19 Feb 2009)

Maybe I missed it , But I dont recall the Fly telling Cornucopia or Mark Sanger that hollow forms were a waste of time and of no use. Maybe he missed their postings when he blinked. REgards Boysie.


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## mark sanger (19 Feb 2009)

Soulfly":doks6dep said:


> The general shape and style is a little anodyne and lacklustre. If you can get some understanding of shape, design and form etc into your work you will reap the rewards. Also hollow forms....why? Totally unpractical things. Make something useful that people want.


 
This is an interesting post and one which I find a magnet to me. 

The reason I say this and why I am replying is not to disregard what you have said but to explain from my experience as a professional turner whose income is made mainly from items that have no use, as to why, as it were I do what I do. 

Turning firstly if you are doing it as a hobby/interest/love of working with wood or full time job should be just that. A love of working with wood. 

You should always make what you desire to make after all, we all live very hectic lives running on the treadmill that is ever present in our lives. Mortgage, work, family commitments, bills and more bills, oh yes and work. So when we step into the workshop do we really want to be making something that others can use or not. 

Now if we are looking at it from a purely commercial business point of view which unfortunately involves that pain in the rear substance called money there are two sides to the coin. This is a rarely talked about subject in forums as most make what they do through enjoyment. 

Painting at the galleries I sell my work in have no use. I can't put pea nuts in them, salad or drink my favourite local beer. I can not wedge my door open with them nor can I place a candle in the top to add light to my room when I am relaxing. 

Yet they sell for several thousands of pounds. 

The sculptures sit below them and the perfectly sculpted wooden teddy bear and other amazingly creative items all around the gallery too have no other purpose, but to add to the aesthetic appeal to the environment into which they are placed. Yet they too sell for hundreds if not thousands of pounds. 

Then there is my work which also sells, regularly, (hollow forms, bowls with holes in the side, lidded forms, wall hangings) just for the appeal of being able to look at it. 

There are salad bowls, pea nut bowls, jigsaws, games, rocking horses, watches, pens, items of use, items of no practical use other than bringing enjoyment to those that look. 

All have the same thing in common. Quality of design, quality of craftsman ship with a uniqueness that people now want in their homes. 

Why own a Aston Martin over my 306.? They only go in the same direction. Backwards, forwards left and right. Why because those that can afford the design and luxury can because they appreciate and have the money to do so. Why buy a picasso ? because those who can, can. 

It is the same with artistic or aesthetic turning/wood work. 

I do not want to get into how much I sell my work for as I make my work because I love making it and because it fulfils my life to be able to make a living by such a wonderful craft. 

The things people (want) or rather (need) these days are made in the thousands and every one has one. 

I have a friend who is a well known pen maker who sells his pens for over £100. But why as I can buy a bic for 20p. Why because people appreciate quality. 

Now I do not say there is not value in making usable items. Far from it after all there are well know turners making thousands upon thousands of bowls or spindles a year which have a purely practical use. But you ask these turners why they make thousands and thousands of bowls or spindles and they will reply, because they enjoy doing it. 

And that is why we should make what we do and for no other reason. whether it be, pens, bowls, hollow forms or door wedges. 

If you are going to make a door wedge. Make the best door wedge that has ever been made and because you want to make it. Or don't make one at all. 

take care 

Mark


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## wizer (19 Feb 2009)

Mark there is label for people like Soulfly on internet forums. Troll. Trolling is where someone posts something deliberately controversial to get a reaction from other posters. Soulfly has put down people's work in 98% of all his posts since he joined. He never responds to question directly put to him and he never posts his work. Which is why I now resort to just insulting him back at every opportunity. The internet is full of these sad types who have nothing in their life but to get off on insulting people behind a shield of anonymity. You'd do best to just ignore his comments as they really don't mean anything. Most of the times he contradicts himself or makes a bizarre claims which can't be backed up.


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## mark sanger (19 Feb 2009)

wizer":2hpmpxlo said:


> Mark there is label for people like Soulfly on internet forums. Troll. Trolling is where someone posts something deliberately controversial to get a reaction from other posters. Soulfly has put down people's work in 98% of all his posts since he joined. He never responds to question directly put to him and he never posts his work. Which is why I now resort to just insulting him back at every opportunity. The internet is full of these sad types who have nothing in their life but to get off on insulting people behind a shield of anonymity. You'd do best to just ignore his comments as they really don't mean anything. Most of the times he contradicts himself or makes a bizarre claims which can't be backed up.



ah 

I see. Thanks for heads up, and I just thought he was someone who didn't have a clue about design or quality. 



I wish I was computer savey. At least I did not waste the time with my reply as it benefits my typing skills.

M


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## Anonymous (19 Feb 2009)

Soulfly":22009umz said:


> Also hollow forms....why?



Check my signature.... it's the only justification necessary (...as 
if justification were needed... and it isn't!) 

Keep the snotty comments coming soulfly... you're putting some life into this somewhat 'comfort zone ' forum :wink: 

Don't ya just luv the typos (I'm being generous :lol: ) who's or whose?


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## mark sanger (19 Feb 2009)

Roger

Hi

If this is your first attempt then have a cigar.

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 

To be able to make this sort of work involves an amount of skill with the gouge. 

Your forms are great.

As to how you can improve them is a subjective question.

For me a form should be viewed as a whole. So if I look at a piece I like to look at it and not have my eye drawn to any one place but to view it as one form. 

I do not know if you are aware of workingin thirds but this may help. It is not always correct but most often is.

IE if you turn a bowl then if the foot is one third of the diameter it will look in proportion.

If you turn a hollow form then if the height is one third of the dia or visa versa it will give the piece more balance.

With your large form the curve is fairly gradual down the side and then curves in quite sharply in the last eigth of the form. This makes it look slightly heavy.

So you could try this. next time start the curve a third of the way down the side from the top. Then finish it so that the base is a third of the diameter of the whole piece. This will give a lighter form.

Now I am not saying that what you have done is not good as it is. And I can tell you know my first attempts ended up in the bin.


On the smaller form next time reduce the height of the base again to one third of the dia and make the height of it only a few millimetres. This will give the appearance that the piece is floating as the shadow from the form will cover the base as in the picture I have inset.







This piece has a foot but it can not be seen so it does not draw the eye.

What you have made is very good and I hope you don't mind my suggestions. 

Keep up the great work

Take care 

Mark


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2009)

Having set soulfly to rights I'm happy to opine your hollow forms...
,
as has been noted by previous respondents your skills are evident ... that leaves the 'form' for consideration....

my (self important) view is that if you like them they're good'uns!!

You may wish to consider appealing to a wider audience in which case draw upon examples posted here and elsewhere for guidance. hth


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## Jenx (20 Feb 2009)

Good Lad, Roger ! 
Looks like you're doing wonderfully well there,

The H/F holds the biggest fear for me and I guess for a lot of learners like me.

Your efforts look great.

And as everyone has advised - ignore that buffoon.
Everyone else does,
The only reason folk have dignified 'said buffoon' with anything resembling a response here, is just to make sure you wouldn't be put off and think that 'buffoonspeak' was typical of the forum in general.
-- It isn't. But you've sussed that out already :wink: 

Your stuff's great, Your enjoying the learning, you'll enjoy the 'virtual' company with some lovely people here .. ( bar one, of course ),
And I'm sure everyone else is delighted to see your turnings.. I know I am.  8) 

* * * * * * * * 

Buffoon : .. can't you take up rambling or underwater origami or something ? Jeeze man, ye give my er5e the toothache with yer idiotic comments. :evil:


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## cornucopia (20 Feb 2009)

hello roger

great first effort  as others have said hollowing can be very daunting- 

as for form improvement it has already been said but just to add.... the 1/3 to 2/3rds is a good start but also smooth flowing curvers without facets and make things which please you.

just for future ref- strictly speaking these are not hollow forms- hollow forms have very small hollowing holes (normally 1 1/2" or smaller) if you can see inside or get your hand in its a closed form or vase/vessel

best wish's 
george


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## johnny.t. (20 Feb 2009)

Good stuff Roger, with all the above suggestions taken into account the only way to improve is keep making more  You've made some good stuff there, keep it up  

JT


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## TEP (20 Feb 2009)

Very nice *Roger*, as with most I prefer the tall vessel. Just sits better on the eye for me.

I think the short one may have benefited by not having the neck section quite so high on the reverse curve, giving it a more rounded shape. Again though all these design things are in the eye of the beholder.

Lot better than I did at first, I was glad I had a coal fire when I started hollowing, there was a lot of fodder for it. :lol:


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## mark sanger (20 Feb 2009)

Hi

Roger. George has made a valid clarification which when I started turning confused the hell out of me. 

There are various names given to different forms and there is a grey area from trasition of one to the other.

Hopefully this helps for the future. ( please anyone else put me straight if I have misled as different people may have a different idea)

1/ Open Form/ Bowl/platter where by the form opens outwards from the base and has a continuous curve without closing back in towards the top.

2/ Closed Form/vase etc is where by the form opens and then closes back in towards the top as in your large piece here. Vases etc. 

3/ Hollow form as George describes. Now where the line is drawn between a closed form and a hollow form is confusing. But I once heard it clarified as a hollow form being something that you need to pick and move around to be able to look in through the hole.

I hope this helps with the description. 

But as the others have said it does not change the fact that what you have made is very good.

Take care 

Mark


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## mikec (20 Feb 2009)

Well done Roger,

I have yet to produce my first hollow form though it is my No 1 priority when I get time on the lathe.

I hope my first efforts turn out as well. I like the first item best, the shape of the second is not quite right to my eyes. I do think that the shape is of less importance than mastering the techniques at this stage. 

Once the skills are honed then you can aim for the small holes and beautiful form of George's work and the flowing artistic interpretation of Marks work. There are many others here whose work is an inspiration, look back through the past postings for an amazing catalogue of achievement.

Thanks Mark for attempting to put into words why we get so drawn into the world of spinny things  

Regards,

Mike C


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## loz (20 Feb 2009)

Very nice Roger,

Love the tall one, nLooks like soemthing i just have to pick up and have a feel of.

The short one - I would lose the foot. I think the rest of the shape is cool.

First attempt ? - keep them coming !!!!


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## Mark Hancock (20 Feb 2009)

Roger

Great first attempt. Well done. As to comments both Mark S. and George have given great constructive advice.


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## miles_hot (20 Feb 2009)

mark sanger":fkgsayi9 said:


> I have a friend who is a well known pen maker who sells his pens for over £100. But why as I can buy a bic for 20p. Why because people appreciate quality. Mark



without wishing to name names etc can you show an example of that sort of pen? 

Miles


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## mark sanger (20 Feb 2009)

Mike I will ask my friend and get back to you on that. 

Take care 

Mark


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## RogerB (20 Feb 2009)

Thank you 

To you all I am quite overwhelmed with the response that I have received. 

It has given me the incentive to try more. 

Will use the 1/3 2/3 rule 

The tall one did start of with a smaller hole, but I removed the tool while the lathe was still turning and caught the lip. 

Again thanks a lot for your comments and support. 



Roger


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## cornucopia (20 Feb 2009)

RogerB":p2c6tsq1 said:


> Thank you
> 
> To you all I am quite overwhelmed with the response that I have received.
> 
> ...




if you are intrested in pursuing hollow forms further then a foot switch is brillant as it can be difficult to remove the tool sometimes.
best wish's 
george


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## Happy amateur (20 Feb 2009)

Mark

I have been reading this forum for some time now and very rarely post, but If there is one good reason for soulfly to be on this forum, it is your response. It is probably one of the best justifications that I have read as to why we are Woodturners. For the joy of it and the feel good factor when something we do pleases us and more so if it pleases somebody else.

Fred


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## boysie39 (20 Feb 2009)

Mark, in my opinion you wasted no ones time ,you gave some of us an insight into the life of a Pro. woodturner who has to make his crust from what to most of us is a hobby for our enjoyment. So the piece did not turn out as we wanted it hell sure i'll give it another shot tomorrow.
You dont have that luxury you cant have the time or the waste we have, 
and yet you can still enjoy your work, It's a rare trait these days and long may it be with you. REgards Boysie
PS what Hobby do wood turners take up when they retire :lol: :lol: .


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## mark sanger (20 Feb 2009)

Boysie and Fred.

Thank you for that. 

I enjoy very much what I do. And trust me some days it goes horribly wrong and I just close the workshop door, walk away and go for a walk with the dogs. I know I am loosing money but now I have managed to change my lifestyle and am able to do something that I love, I know that I am truly lucky/privileged and the money does not seem so important. 

For this reason though I have had to learn to turn fairly fast to make up for it the next day. 

Thank you again. It is good to know I can in even a small way help others by what I write/add to the forum.

Mark


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## Bodrighy (20 Feb 2009)

mark sanger":1kpzhmdh said:


> Boysie and Fred.
> 
> And trust me some days it goes horribly wrong and I just close the workshop door, walk away and go for a walk with the dogs.
> Mark



That rings bells :!: :!:   

After the 4th 'accident' and banging my head in the shed I came to the conclusion that today was not for turning. Fortunately I am not a pro. so it is only frustrating and annoying. 

Pete


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## cornucopia (21 Feb 2009)

Bodrighy":36actq8f said:


> mark sanger":36actq8f said:
> 
> 
> > Boysie and Fred.
> ...



I think we all have them, in the early days of my turning they were very frequent luckily now a days there fewer.


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## mark sanger (21 Feb 2009)

cornucopia":1kzfg5wm said:


> Bodrighy":1kzfg5wm said:
> 
> 
> > mark sanger":1kzfg5wm said:
> ...



Hi Pete/George

Yes you are right but I want to add to this as some people may want one day to look at turning as a full time job but may feel that due to cost it is not viable.

Yes if I mess a piece up then I may have just lost potentially anything from £10 upwards. 

But as I sell thought galleries as long as I have a large stock in the outlets then pieces may still be being sold on the days that I mess things up. So although yes potentially if you look at it as a business then I will have diluted this profit if not lost it. But I do not look at it in that way. As long as I learn from what has happened ( then I put it into the research and development box :lol: :lol: :lol: ) Every business has one. :wink:

I also include a loss cost within my work to allow for a few losses. Thank fully it does not happen often but it has to be included. Every business does it from veg shops to car manufacturers. 

But to have a business in turning comes down to the rest of our economic conditions. Over heads and ultimately how much money we need to live with.

If we leave a £100,000 job expecting to earn the same through turning it just ain't going to happen. At least not without major investment. 

Also most businesses take 2-3years to really get going so I ran my turning along side other work until it became viable, then went full time.

IE I am very fortunate and I make no bones about it. But when I was looking at turning full time I decided that the best way to go for me ( and I am very much in the early stages of my career), 

Was to keep my over heads low and to become involved with galleries and other outlets such as an interior shop as a way of selling my work. which allows me to dedicate my time to making while they sell and market my work for me ( if they are a good gallery).

Also I knew it was going to be hard as any business is to start with, as I know you are aware!!. But due to my circumstance I had to have a life change or something was going to give.

So I stripped down as much as possible my out goings by working my socks off before I went full time. 

Also for me a multi faceted approach I find is the best way.

I have little interest in spindle turning not that there is not value in it, it is just I want to make what I want to make and want to look forward to going to work and not thinking I would rather be doing something else. others may love spindle work, it's horses for courses and all that.

I know several spindle turners who make a very good wage at what they do, but it just isn't me.

So I looked at the galleries, commissions demonstrating and teaching (which I have only done a small amount of but am currently writing up course notes to push it more within the next few months) 

No that's not a sales pitch folks, I just want to let people know how I am going about it so it may help you.

With all these different areas the money trickles in nicely. Don;t get me wrong I can not afford to go abroad for my holidays and I drive a ten year old 306. but hell life is good.

Also there are the options of furniture repairs and if you tap into furniture/antique restorers in the area you can also get work like this. 

Builders and other similar businesses are a good way of getting work also. 

The thing is if a building needs a new roof finial many larger companies just won't get involved. 

I have done work for people as the turning company they normally use will not raise work unless the minimum is £500. So in comes us, ready to do the one off's.

You will be surprised how useful we are especially if you get to know some local builders who specialise in house renovation. ( I will make spindles if asked) But just choose not to push it. I don't do it if I don't want to, even if I need the money at times. 

With someone with your knowledge and skill within green hollow form work you could demonstrate this and I bet there are clubs out there that would love to watch you make and explain how to make your work up close, and to be able to ask you questions.

Going to local shows and demonstrating is a good way to push your business for commissions, demonstrating and teaching. ( health and safety being covered of course with full insurance) But mine cost me around £68 a year for teaching and demonstrating.

It is though a dedicated craft insurance company. If any one needs the details let me know.

There are many ways and one of the biggest hurdles I found to start with was having the self belief to be able to go and do it.

There are many ways. But what I would say and this worked for me and it was the best thing I ever did. Is that I looked at my way of life and the stress involve and thought " there has to be more to life then this, I want to be a turner, I am going to do it and nothing will stop me"

Yes I have knocks and in the first few months I really thought I would have to get back onto the tread mill. But with sheer bloody mindedness and the help of a great many other turners both professional and part time/leisure turners as well as family and other people, I have made a good go at it. 

I am always at the end of a phone if anyone wants to pick my brains. I do not know everything far from it but will try to get you the answer or find some one that does know.

As long as we come from a good place in life and genuinely want to be turning full time, why not. No one on this earth controls my destiny but me. 

yet again I have waffled enough. 

Mark


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## CHJ (21 Feb 2009)

Waffle all you like Mark as far as I'm concerned, if it brings a bit of reality or inspiration just to one other person it has been worthwhile. I'm sure there are many that read these forums that are interested in the motivation behind such an enterprise, so often people in business just don't share and treat their expertise as a 'need to know' subject in case someone gains an advantage. Knowing how it's done or what it takes can save someone from making mistakes but it still takes effort on their part to achieve similar aims and rarely impacts on the established venture.


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## Bodrighy (21 Feb 2009)

I concur with Chas. I am one of those that would love to turn for a living but have a long way to go before I am that good. Having a few pieces in a couple of galleries and shops is a real ego boost and hopefully covers the cost of my addiction but for me the hard part is the selling. Every time a gallery or shop has a look at my work I am thinking 'hope they don't notice that slight sanding mark, they won't like the design and so on. Any tips you havefor us who sell the odd bit is qwelcome from any of you who have dived in and done it

Pete


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## mark sanger (21 Feb 2009)

Chas

I have to agree to a certain extent and do understand why people want to keep their business to themselves and I too would want to protect my business as after all without it I can not put food on the table., etc.

But giving a few ideas of how to look at the business side I do not feel gives away anything that will harm. 

I obviously would not post a list of local people that need me to do work for them and add to it how much I charge. 

But we have to be mindful that people will take ideas and try to grab work from others. This is also a part of business that people need to be aware of.

But being involved in artistic work means that yes I am in competition as it were with other turners but less so than a purely commercial business as we all have our own style.

It may be that a person likes another's work over mine and therefore buy theirs as it appeals to their taste. Or it may fit in better within the interior they are choosing it for.

Trust me if someone copied my work tried selling it as theirs I would not be so charitable. But again this is something that is hard to combat and if trying to run a business is also something to be mindful of. 

But at the end of the day we all have to get on and and I believe there is enough room for many of us as long as we respect each other. This is the way I work.

IE If I was looking for antique restorers for a possible place to get work from. I became aware that a turner who lives near to me already does work for them. So I politely declined to do any work for them. It wasn't that his work was not any good I just found out that he was doing it and I do not do business that way.

Some may think " this guy is crackers" and I know of people that would undercut and take the work. 

I just decide not to work or live in that way. And I know that I will loose work to others but I just accept it. 

I have enough ideas rattling around to keep me busy for the rest of my days.

Again though if I found one of my wall hangings which I designed being mass produced and sold in high street shops I would adopt a different approach. But I will cross that bridge if it happens and I do not loose too much sleep over it.



Take care 

Mark


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## mark sanger (21 Feb 2009)

Hi all 

I am concious that my input on this thread has hijacked the subject it was initially started for which was for RogerB to show his hollow forms.

My apologies Roger. I will continue this by starting another thread.

so will answer you there Pete.

Mark


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## RogerB (21 Feb 2009)

mark sanger":1qc1eypv said:


> Hi all
> 
> I am concious that my input on this thread has hijacked the subject it was initially started for which was for RogerB to show his hollow forms.
> 
> ...


 
No need for the apology Mark I have found this most informative as I am self employed 20 + years now Bespoke Bathrooms and Kitchen mainly but almost anything else if I feel I can. 

I found to start, that selling myself came hard but as you progress and gain self confidence it becomes easier. But it isn't every bodys cup of tea. 

As you said you have got to have that drive and determination to succeed. 


Regards Roger


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## big soft moose (27 Feb 2009)

wizer":ohn7njep said:


> Soulfly has put down people's work in 98% of all his posts since he joined. He never responds to question directly put to him and he never posts his work. Which is why I now resort to just insulting him back at every opportunity. .



tom - the reason he never posts his work is because he doesnt have any  given that he thinks the best way to dry green wood is to strip all the bark off to encourage it to dry as quickly as possible :roll: , I think it is fair to say that he is not in fact any sort of wood turner. I really think the powers that be ought to ban this moron

Mark - unlike the'fly you are an inspiration - you can "waffle" on as much as you like as far as i'm concerned , its always good to hear the thoughts of those whove been there, done that and have the work to prove it.


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## mark sanger (27 Feb 2009)

big soft moose":2tanubje said:


> wizer":2tanubje said:
> 
> 
> > Soulfly has put down people's work in 98% of all his posts since he joined. He never responds to question directly put to him and he never posts his work. Which is why I now resort to just insulting him back at every opportunity. .
> ...



big soft moose

Thank you. 

I do find it hard to understand why some people try their best to undermine others but I guess it is human nature. As they say no one kicks a dead dog. 

Thanks again. I would love to say that I have all the answers but like all of us I have lots to learn but just like to help out if I can .

Take care 

Mark


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## Jenx (27 Feb 2009)

:wink: I think we _all _struggle to understand that fella, Mark...
Its certainly a little 'off the wall and out there' by most people's measure.

As the Moose and others say.... your stuff, and from the other top guys, speaks for itself. 
Its beautiful. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)


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## mark sanger (27 Feb 2009)

Jenx":2ql77y3r said:


> :wink: I think we _all _struggle to understand that fella, Mark...
> Its certainly a little 'off the wall and out there' by most people's measure.
> 
> As the Moose and others say.... your stuff, and from the other top guys, speaks for itself.
> Its beautiful. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)



Thanks a lot Jenx

I am hoping to post some more work soon but am a bit busy at the moment trying to get items finished for re stocking and as usual things never go to plan, especially when I am behind.

M


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## big soft moose (27 Feb 2009)

mark sanger":2jvo48bl said:


> Trust me if someone copied my work tried selling it as theirs I would not be so charitable.



I think its basically about respect - I've been trying to emulate mark hancock's swirly vase things (without a lot of success) for as long as ive been turning , but even if i could succesfully do them I'd only do one for personal pleasure and to demonstrate to myself that i could - It would be a cold day in hell before i tried to shoe horn into his market.

I totally respect that if i'm ever going to make myself a name turner (flying pigs etc) like mark (and you) It needs to be with a style that is my own - not a pale imitation of someone elses work.

Likewise this http://www.marksanger.co.uk/mark_sanger ... isdom.html is beautiful and something i'd take some inspiration from - but it would definitely be inspiration not imitation. Incidentally is that ball fixed as part of the bowl or is it jus sitting in it ?


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## Bodrighy (27 Feb 2009)

I also emulate certain turners and I don't think that many turners mind. The point is when a design is copied and sold as original. I too would love to be able to not so much do what the 2 Marks and otherd do but think of the ideas. All the turning skill in the world won't substitue for being able to think up a certain style. I love Cindy Drozda's work but though lots of others do the same sort of thing there is a definite difference, not necessarily in quality but in style etc. Often a little thing that becomes a trade mark. Something I may aim for whilst remaining individually 'my work'

Pete


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## Anonymous (28 Feb 2009)

Is 'emulation' the new form of 'sincerest flattery'?

To give one perspective:

_IMITATION IS THE SINCEREST FORM OF FLATTERY - "Usually said ironically when someone tries to gain attention by copying someone else's original ideas. Coined by Charles Caleb Colton in 1820 in his 'Lacon.' First attested in the United States in 'Malice' (1940) by E. Cameron. The adage is found in varying forms." From "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings" by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996)._
(courtesy of http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_boar ... s/203.html)

When does 'inspired by' become plagiarism?

another source to factor into your thinking: 
http://www.plagiarism.org/learning_cent ... arism.html

and to add a little specificity: _What is Plagiarism

Many people think of plagiarism as copying another's work, or borrowing someone else's original ideas. But terms like "copying" and "borrowing" can disguise the seriousness of the offense: _
NB I haven't bothered to translate from the original American :wink: 

I'm so glad that we don't have any rip-off characters on this forum  

Be inspired, emulate to your heart's content and if perchance you copy another's work have the decency to acknowledge it.....


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## Bodrighy (28 Feb 2009)

Back on form Graham :lol: 

Just to make the point you inspired me to try to miniatures. Watching you do them so quickly and easily made me want to do them. That is emulation. Sadly I have yet to achievve your skill level as I have also to achieve Chas's technical quality or either Mark's originality but each of you starts a journey for me along which I hope to find my own style and originality (if there truly is such a thing. For me perhaps making something out of wood that others throw away and my so called 'rustic pieces' are some kind of trade mark though I have seen others doing it and doing it better. 

Emulation is defined as follows

1obsolete : ambitious or envious rivalry :twisted: 
2: ambition or endeavor to equal or excel others (as in achievement) \/ 

I hope not to be obsolete, perhaps I am too late  

I console myself in remembering that you have all been turning for a good number of years, I for a mere two. 

Good to hear from you again. Missed our little diatribes and double entendres

Pete


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## Anonymous (28 Feb 2009)

Nuff with the self deprecation ...

*Pete* you've already established a _Bodrighy_ identity and presence ...and in turn, inspired others! Add to that the joy of seeing something a little different on here and I have to say, you're doing alright me old chukkabutty :wink: 

*Roger*
Is it not time we saw the latest hollow forms from you?


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## mark sanger (28 Feb 2009)

big soft moose":1u91dg0z said:


> mark sanger":1u91dg0z said:
> 
> 
> > Trust me if someone copied my work tried selling it as theirs I would not be so charitable.
> ...



Hi 

I had written a lengthy response to this and just as I went to send my internet connection went down and that was several hours ago. At least when I ruin a piece I just get grazed knuckles and I know how to sort it, flaming computers :x 

I am with Roger about emulation being flattery.

I too when I started looked every where for inspiration and still do. It is important to me to keep up with what is going on within current trends, say within interiors. 

I use to try to emulate the finials of Cindy Drozda but was never happy as I always returned to what I liked doing and what made me happy which was making simple forms. I found that unless I was making what " I really wanted to make" then my work seem superficial in it's appearance and the connection I had with it.

Once I stopped trying to find my " signature" type work I found that things just evolved slowly and all of a sudden I ended up with something that I was happy with and felt was individual.

It is very difficult as everything that we see has probably been made in some variation at some time through history, especially if we go back through Chinese ceramics and similar which have thousands of years of heritage.

What for me is the most important point within work is that I truly believe that what a person makes should be what makes them happy and what comes from within. 

Basically the essence of who they are as a person. For this to happen I need to connect deeply with my work but can not do this all of the time. Reality dictates that I have to make lots of bowls, platters candle holders and other utility items that people buy regularly. This though allows me time to let an idea evolve and develop in my mind until it comes out. And I also input some of these into my regular work. Such as a arbotech carved rim platter. 

I am glad you like the "Unmovable Wisdom" piece which itself evolved from my thoughts and feelings.

The black bowl represents the mind. The circle cut out represents a pure thought of calm and depth. The curved cut out represents a conflicting thought full of energy. The sphere represents a centred mind/thought of wisdom which is not being distracted by what is happening around it.

The idea came originally from a interest in Zen and how people meditate and various related ideas coupled with my own life on the tread mill before I gave it all up. 

Yep it's deep but I like my turning ( when I do the artistic work) to be a form of mechanism for a way in which I can express my thoughts as opposed to being the end in itself. I just chose turning to be my hobby years ago and did not know at that time where it would go.

Before I forget the ball is not fixed but does have a flat base of around 15mm. I did this as it is important that the ball stays in the middle and if it was out onto a sideboard that was not level it may move.


The way I sometimes like to work is this, and may be you could try it as it is a good way of getting ideas. 

I think of a situation or subject that I want to explore. IE with my wall hangings I thought of a child and parent "Nurture" 

I then try drew my thoughts about this as quickly as I could so that it was spontaneous and not restricted. I want to put my thoughts into a descriptive medium say a wall hanging, or as in "Natures Bounty" which I think I also posted. 

Once I am happy I evolve this into my turning. It some times does not work but some times does. 

When I am turning the piece I will also change it at any point that another idea comes into my head. This way the work is free and truly the essence of who we are. 

There is nothing wrong with taking inspiration from another's work and evolving it into your own interpretation and idea as long as in my view the work is credited. 

But you soon find that this does not give true satisfaction and your own style evolves ( as long as in my opinion we become connected to what we do) otherwise we are just making items and not creating.

There I go again.
  

Thank you 

Mark


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## boysie39 (28 Feb 2009)

Is it possible to write and not be able to read????

The reason I ask is that there is a post for THE FLY on the forum about some messages in his mail box which he is neglecting and the Mods are after him.

Probley the best way to contact him ,would be to post some Hollow forms and give a discription and atthe bottom of the picture write,ANSWER YOUR MAIL YOU SILLY MOO. :lol: :lol: :lol: Maybe he's waiting for one of mine!! I am learning I promise. REgards Boysie.


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## Anonymous (1 Mar 2009)

boysie39":31b4951i said:


> Is it possible to write and not be able to read????



There's none so deaf as those that don't want to see :lol: 

(Slainte Mhath E)


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## big soft moose (1 Mar 2009)

miles_hot":27lmiis9 said:


> As for "hollow forms, why bother" - I have to say that they have a practical purpose - they can look and feel bloody fantastic.



in addition as swimbo has pointed out they are essentially vases  and you can stand pretty flowers in them apparently 

(Note to self - must make the neck wide enough to put a glass insert in the next one i make)


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