# Screws not supporting brackets



## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

I am a very new DIY'er and recently starting an alcove cupboard in my bedroom. I drilled the holes and put the wood supports in and some brackets to hold shelves and a clothes rail. All was good until the next day when the clothes rail and brackets fell down. The drilled holes seemed to have become bigger and the weight of the clothes (which was not that heavy) loosened the plugs and screws resulting in the crash! The walls are the walls inbetween us and next door so are brick and stone. Any suggestions why this happened and how i can rectify it? I tried moving the shelving brackets along but the holes just became miles bigger than the drill bit i used then the plugs would not go in despite the hole being long enough. I was totally baffled and the air was blue! Help!!!


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## clogs (15 Mar 2021)

are the wall lathe and battern....plaster got horse hair in it .....?
OR
are they plater board walls...
both types have simiar problems with fixings.......
look on Screwfix etc for plater board or hollow wall fixings.....soon sorted.....


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Mar 2021)

... the walls inbetween us and next door so are brick and stone ...


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Dont think the plaster has horse hair in it, its a 1940's build and as for lather and battern? Thats just forgeign to me We went to but plugs got plaster boards but like i say, the plugs would not go in despite the drilled holes being deep enough. Ill have a look on screwfix but i gave up on the job which im gutted about


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> ... the walls inbetween us and next door so are brick and stone ...


Well as far as i know as its the adjoining wall between our semi's


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Mar 2021)

The holes shouldn't enlarge no matter what you're drilling unless you're hitting something very hard buried in something soft. What drill and bits are you using?


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## Doug B (15 Mar 2021)

How thick were the wooden supports you used & how long were the screws you fixed them with?


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The holes shouldn't enlarge no matter what you're drilling unless you're hitting something very hard buried in something soft. What drill and bits are you using?


Im using a Triton SDS drill with masonary drill bits. The bit seems to vibrate when im using the drill which is resulting in the 6mm drill bit mving and the hole becoming larger. Ive wondered if the drill is faulty, ive just bought it so i might have to pop into screwfix and ask their advice


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## Jameshow (15 Mar 2021)

Did you use sds drill bits and not normal masonry drill bits? 

The plug say a brown one should be completely in the wall and not partially in the wood. 

Cheers James


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

Doug B said:


> How thick were the wooden supports you used & how long were the screws you fixed them with?





Doug B said:


> How thick were the wooden supports you used & how long were the screws you fixed them with?


4.8mm and the screws we tried varied in size. Like i say we even went and bought plasterboard plugs which would not go in despite the drilled hole being big enough


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Did you use sds drill bits and not normal masonry drill bits?
> 
> The plug say a brown one should be completely in the wall and not partially in the wood.
> 
> Cheers James


Yes i used the SDS drill bits, was that wrong?


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## Doug B (15 Mar 2021)

The raw plug should be knocked behind the plaster line well into the brick/stone prior to fitting the batten, if your batten was 25mm thick then you need at least a 75mm long screw but that will depend on the thickness of the plaster.


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

I only used the SDS drill to drill the wall and used a normal drill in the wood


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Did you use sds drill bits and not normal masonry drill bits?
> 
> The plug say a brown one should be completely in the wall and not partially in the wood.
> 
> Cheers James


Yeah we were trying to get the plugs into the wall before putting the wood up


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## joshvegas (15 Mar 2021)

Is your wall a brick wall with plaster directly on it like a thick layer rather than plasterboard with a gap then brickwork? Thats what i would expect on a 40s house. If its anything like my place the cupboards will be really thick layers because they just threw it on. If your plug is mainly bedded in the plaster the will make the hoke bigger.

If it is you will need plugs that are long enough to go all the way through the plaster and mainly be in the underlying brick work thats quite a long plug. Personally i find rawl plugs a bit useless for this type of wall and fischer plugs worked alot better and they are better at gripping.

The drill should vibrate thats how it gets through the masonry. If its thick plaster i set it to rotary only until i feel it dig into the brick then get the hammer action on. If I don't the hole can end up anywhere in a 50mm radius as i send plaster dust EVERYWHERE!


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## Mads911 (15 Mar 2021)

Thanks Joshvegas, thank you everybody for your help. I really want to get started but im reluctant now due to the hassle i had over the weekend


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## Jameshow (15 Mar 2021)

Mads911 said:


> Yeah we were trying to get the plugs into the wall before putting the wood up


Sounds like your doing the right thing. 

You just need to make sure the plugs go into solid masonry so perhaps longer plugs. I've used 100x8mm frame fixing which are cheap but quite solid fixings. 

Cheers James


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## joshvegas (15 Mar 2021)

Mads911 said:


> I really want to get started but im reluctant now due to the hassle i had over the weekend



This is how we learn pal. Keep at it!

Edit. This is the plastering i'm talking about. Notice no paper, hard smooth skim then a rougher base layer before you get to brick. Its a really gritty dust.

Note those holes have blow out which is what i suspect has happened to you the plug expands and weakens the plaster.


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## ptturner (15 Mar 2021)

Keep with it Mads, were all green when we started diy, its very easy to get flustered when you start something needing a completley new skillset. In your case familierising yourself with the function of the drill, the material your drilling into, not to mention the vast array of screws, plugs and other fixings available!

I ll be the first to admit there are plenty of jobs I feel out of my depth, thats where communities such as this are invaluable.


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## joshvegas (15 Mar 2021)

Turns out i struggle with photos...


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## jcassidy (16 Mar 2021)

Alternatively line your alcove; place boards against the side walls of your alcove, secured with plasterboard screws, line top & bottom with boards using angle brackets, and mount your shelves and clothes rail from there.
The top board and shelves will keep the side walls separate and the sides will support the weight.
I'd say 12mm ply would suffice? If it's a large alcove, use 18mm for strength?

Coat of water based paint for wood, will look gorgeous.
You may want to line the back to hide those horrible big holes....


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## GuitardoctorW7 (16 Mar 2021)

Turn off the hammer when drilling and see if it drills cleanly. Big rookie mistake is to go in with the hammer on and make a bigger hole than you need as the drill wanders with the percussion especially in old walls. If you're left with too large a hole, whittle some wood plugs into a rough conical shape, drive them in with a hammer and flush cut which is the old way before Rawplugs (other brands are available). 
Before anyone tells me I'm wrong, my Grandad, and my exes Dad were both skilled trades who showed me these tips and I've literally put up dozens of shelves, cupboards etc.


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## sploo (16 Mar 2021)

As guitardoctor notes; hammer action on a drill can cause the hole to be too large if the substrate is too soft. This is pretty common where you have a hard wall (brick/stone) that's been plastered. This gets even worse with "dot and dab" (whereby you have 1/2" of soft plasterboard, probably 1/4" of air, then the brick/stone. Better to start without hammer action, see how far in you get, then only engage the hammer action to get into the harder material.

If you're struggling to get a rawl/wall plug into the drilled hole then (unless the hole hasn't been drilled deep enough) it may be full of brick dust - a quick "wipe" with a vacuum cleaner will suck out any debris.

Decent plugs also make a huge difference - especially on difficult substrates. I've pretty much given up using anything other than the Fischer DuoPower plugs (Fischer Duopower Wall Plugs 6mm 100 Pack). They're not cheap, but they've saved me so much hassle over the years due to their ability to "grab" into just about any substrate.

Finally - make sure you're using an appropriately sized screw for the plug; part of the job of the screw is to cause the plug to expand into the drilled hole. Too small a screw and it won't work.

Don't be discouraged. My very first DIY drilling job was failing to put up some shelves due to having cr*p masonry drill bits, and trying to drill into the walls of a 1920s house; which felt like it must have been made of diamond.


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## Keefy. (16 Mar 2021)

Mads911, chuck some pic's up so we can see what you're prob is. We'll be in a better position to comment.


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## TheUnicorn (16 Mar 2021)

Good quality plugs and making sure the holes are vaccuumed out to get rid of all the dust and dirt. if I haven't got access to a hoover I keep a straw in my drill box, insert right to the end of the hole and blow it all out (wear googles!). Also I normally start with a small drill bit and work up in size, depending on what you are drilling into, one size down might be the right size. Your plug should push in with gentle pressure, if you have to hammer it in, your hole is too small


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## owen (16 Mar 2021)

Make sure your holes are plenty deep enough, then hammer in brown plugs then use a good fat screw such as a 5mm into them


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## Trextr7monkey (16 Mar 2021)

All useful points above, another possible cause is if the drill bit is slightly bent it will dig a bigger hole than you expect- try rolling it along edge of worktop and see if there’s anything funny about he way it moves


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## MARK.B. (16 Mar 2021)

With all the advice given here you should be feeling more confident at being able to put your shelves up the thing is with shelves etc in older buildings that require wall plugs ,you just never know the condition of the wall behind it's coat of plaster untill you start drilling and by then its often to late. Sod's Law states that if there is a void or soft spot your drill bit will find it


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## TheUnicorn (16 Mar 2021)

for some jobs, normally more functional than decorative, I use something akin to the technique here. I've secured some shelves to some old, uneven, soft, damp, cellar walls using a wide batten like this. it can be fiddly, but ultimately it works (or has done for me)


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## Woody2Shoes (16 Mar 2021)

A big clue as to the construction of the wall comes from studying the dust that comes out when you drill the hole. Red/brown - probably brick; yellow and crunchy - probably mortar (which could be quite weak lime mortar in your case); grey/fine dust - plasterboard/finishing plaster.

Are you sure you've sized the screws correctly? How long are they and how much is in the wall, how much of the length is not in the wall? A picture would be worth a thousand words.

My guess is you've hit soft mortar and undersized the fixings. Clothes are really very heavy.


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## Woody2Shoes (16 Mar 2021)

PS the fatter the plug and screw, the better - more surface area means more grip/pull-out resistance.


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## manglitter (16 Mar 2021)

When using an sds drill you sometimes need to go half to 1mm smaller in drill size than if just using a hammer drill. 

Example

For a brown plug use 7mm bit for hammer drill - 6mm bit for sds. 

Also if your screw isn't getting a good grip in your plug, it is often possible to put a plug that is the next size down INSIDE your existing plug. 

Example. 

Brown plug not gripping - insert red plug inside the brown plug.


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