# Cheap Japanese Chisels?



## Ed Bray (18 Mar 2015)

In a mad state of mind, I decided to try a Japanese Chisel to see what all the fuss is about, now my intention was to buy a single mid range chisel circa 10mm just to try out, god knows why as I only have 3 sets of western chisels that rarely (like never) get used, I tend to use my old plastic handled Stanley set from the 80s.

So I started looking around and then I saw a cheap set of Japanese chisels from Dictum, Hattori 10 piece set for just under £100, so I took the plunge and bought them, they arrived yesterday.

Today, I spent a couple of hours setting the hoops, flattening the backs a little and sharpening them, well not all of them, I only did from 3mm up to 24mm (7 of them), they seem to take a nice edge, but they all seemed to have had their bevels set to 35 degrees which I wasn't used to.

So, has anyone any experience of these chisels? I did a search but not much seemed to come up about them.


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## CStanford (18 Mar 2015)

35 degrees? That's a shank, not a chisel. I hope you sort it all out and that they will perform for you at a bit of a lower angle. It's good to hear you aren't used to a chisel ground that high.


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## matthewwh (18 Mar 2015)

Japanese chisels tend to have steeper bevels, around 35ish for chopping chisels and 30ish for paring chisels. 

The manufacturer will have set the bevel at an appropriate angle for their steel / heat treatment etc. The hagane (cutting layer) is usually harder than western chisel blades, so regrinding them to western chisel geometry will yield the same result as an over-hardened western chisel - chipping.

Also worth remembering that they are designed for use with a single bevel, so the whole thing is at the same angle we would normally use on a secondary bevel. For A2 chisels that would be 35 so you're not in uncharted territory.


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## CStanford (18 Mar 2015)

...will never understand the appeal of chisels that require these sorts of angles to prevent chipping...

It doesn't make sense to me to substitute steel that rolls a little for steel that chips. I can fix the former on a fine honing stone. The latter requires a trip back to the grinder and possibly a lengthy one at that. And the steel that rolls a little rolls a lot less, if at all, at the high angles of the other chisels. 35*+ is a great equalizer IMO.

Guess I'm not one of the cool kids, though long and thinly ground Western paring chisels of yore seem pretty darned cool to me.


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## matthewwh (18 Mar 2015)

You're not alone by any stretch Charles, we are just blessed to live in a time of such diversity.

Perhaps you should give a Japanese paring chisel a try - I think you might be pleasantly surprised!


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## CStanford (19 Mar 2015)

You never know Matthew, I just might!

Most of my woodworking habits were formed when the Japanese tools available in the US were of very uneven quality which is putting it charitably. One had a better than even chance of beingt scammed, outright. I know this has changed but I mostly have not.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (19 Mar 2015)

matthewwh":14320v6g said:


> Japanese chisels tend to have steeper bevels, around 35ish for chopping chisels and 30ish for paring chisels.
> 
> The manufacturer will have set the bevel at an appropriate angle for their steel / heat treatment etc. The hagane (cutting layer) is usually harder than western chisel blades, so regrinding them to western chisel geometry will yield the same result as an over-hardened western chisel - chipping.
> 
> Also worth remembering that they are designed for use with a single bevel, so the whole thing is at the same angle we would normally use on a secondary bevel. For A2 chisels that would be 35 so you're not in uncharted territory.



Matthew, that does not accord with my experience. All the bench Japanese bench chisels I have owned or used (Iyoroi, Matsumura, Koyamaichi) have a bevel angle of 30 degrees. They take and hold a terrific edge at 30 degrees, and I have rarely experienced any chipping when chopping into hardwoods, and I have used these over a period of 20 years.

My set of Kiyohisa paring chisels came, and continued to be used with a bevel angle of 25 degrees. That is typical for Japanese paring chisels (slicks).

Ed, I would check the bevel angles. If they are indeed 35 degrees, I would just grind them to 30. Even cheap Japanese chisels offer excellent performance.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Ed Bray (19 Mar 2015)

Thanks all for your comments/advise, much appreciated.

Yep, definitely 35 degrees, I will have a go with them at that and then change them all to 30 afterwards.


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## David C (19 Mar 2015)

I don't remember chipping any of my Japanese chisels in the last 35 years, but they are not cheap ones.

I do heretical things.

Paring. Grind at 25 degrees, get wire edge at 30 degrees, polish 32 degrees, three strokes only.
Chopping. Grind 27 degrees, get wire edge 33 degrees, polish 35 degrees.

Wonderful tools.

David Charlesworth


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## Andy Kev. (19 Mar 2015)

David C":3nhz67bk said:


> I don't remember chipping any of my Japanese chisels in the last 35 years, but they are not cheap ones.
> 
> I do heretical things.
> 
> ...


David,

two questions: 

What is the rationale for the 2 deg difference when you polish? (3 strokes of 2 deg difference sound as though they would hardly make a difference.)
How do you consistently achieve that degree of accuracy (I assume you use some kind of device)?

Andy.


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## David C (19 Mar 2015)

Andy,

I use an Eclipse guide.

When moving from 800 waterstone (where I get small wire edge) the projection from guide is simply reduced by approximately 2mm (no great precision here! )

The slight raise of angle means polishing is very quick as I am only polishing the tip. i e the part that does the cutting. The 800 scratches are replaced at the edge. This is why my polishing is only 3 strokes (for carbon steel).

David


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## ali27 (19 Mar 2015)

David C":p22u8597 said:


> Andy,
> 
> I use an Eclipse guide.
> 
> ...



Hi David,

Are the 800 scratches completely replaced by 8000 scratches in just 3 strokes? You must have very good results this way, but I wonder if you would have even better result if you did a few strokes more?

Ali


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## Andy Kev. (19 Mar 2015)

David,

thanks for the reply. Do you apply that to European chisels too?

Andy.


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## David C (19 Mar 2015)

More or less, If I worked softwood I would probably lower those angles.

Ali,
The 800 scratches are replaced at the tip. The tip does the cutting why spend time polishing more metal?

David


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## CStanford (19 Mar 2015)

I've always been under the impression the Japanese set their chisels up with one, flat bevel and of course honed on that bevel. What exactly is the rationale behind straying from this strategy?


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## bugbear (19 Mar 2015)

CStanford":216jnun3 said:


> I've always been under the impression the Japanese set their chisels up with one, flat bevel and of course honed on that bevel.



According to Jacob, they use convex bevels, like any sensible person ought to. 

According to Jacob.

BugBear


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## CStanford (19 Mar 2015)

Wouldn't be surprised if they ended up with some degree of convexity. 

Concavity is an impossibility if grinding wheels are out. 

It's pretty impossible for the honing angle to increase from the starting point if the cutter is pushed down the stone -- it would be a very unnatural movement to push while simultaneously manipulating one's hands to raise the angle. So, in the end no harm in it.


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## G S Haydon (19 Mar 2015)

A pleasure to see you today in our workshop David and I'm still feeling embarrassed that my enclave of the workshop was a little untidy. Having a cup of tea and a chat face to face made a very pleasant change to the text format of the online world. I look forward to calling in and seeing your workshop in Hartland soon.


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## David C (19 Mar 2015)

Charles,

You are quite right. I am sure there is nothing wrong with the single polished bevel but it must be more time consuming.

My method is nearer English tradition with one tiny extra microbevel, it is also very quick, and has worked very well for many years. (No need to strop if done with fine Japanese polishing stone).

David


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## CStanford (19 Mar 2015)

David, are you hollow grinding?


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## David C (19 Mar 2015)

Yes, no limits to the heresy. 10" Tormek wheel now.

It is clear that the Japanese aim for a single flat bevel. I have seen many chisels and they seemed to have minute convexity, but nothing of the Paul Sellers ilk. Just a very slight deviation from perfect flatness.

Graham,

I enjoyed my visit, thank you. Will look forward to seeing you soon.

David


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## CStanford (19 Mar 2015)

Is it fair to say that it would all seem to come down to the steel since you're otherwise setting these up completely in the Western tradition? You're looking for particular attributes in the steel and have yet to find them in anything but Japanese chisels?


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## David C (19 Mar 2015)

Yes. Generally hardness is much higher than trad western tools. Some modern ones get close.

I remember feeling that I could see my Stanley 5001 edges folding when paring dense exotics.

David


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## CStanford (20 Mar 2015)

Thanks.

Do you view laminated steel as a positive, negative, or with ambivalence?


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## David C (20 Mar 2015)

Much steel was laminated in England in the past. Crucible steel being expensive.

I have always understood that an unlaminated steel chisel of Japanese hardness would be too brittle to use, so the lamination is providing a considerable benefit.

David


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## CStanford (20 Mar 2015)

What Rc range, David?


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## David C (20 Mar 2015)

Rc 62 to 64 usually quoted but sometimes higher.


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## CStanford (20 Mar 2015)

My Arkansas stones would run and hide in the corner...


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