# Protecting oil tank from falling trees



## Mark A (13 Feb 2017)

Hi chaps,

Our house is in a valley with tall trees up either side. The weekend before last a tree came down in high winds, blocking the farmer's lane running along the boundary and crushing a section of hedge. Fortunately, this particular tree was about 40 yards away from our heating oil tank, but next time we may not be so lucky.

A local steel fabricator is popping round tomorrow to take a look, but I'd like a bit of advice beforehand.

I am envisioning four steel columns bolted to concrete footings, supporting beams on top. I may fix a sheet of corrugated steel on top at a later date.

Would bolts be adequate to join the components together, or would welding be best?

With regards to attaching the columns to the footings; should studs be set into the concrete while it is being poured, or can studs be adhered in place with chemical fasteners after the concrete has cured?

















Cheers,
Mark


----------



## novocaine (13 Feb 2017)

talk with your supplier first, you may find they won't fill a tank that's been surrounded like that. I could be wrong obviously, but it doesn't hurt to ask.


----------



## Mark A (13 Feb 2017)

I contacted our supplier when we first considered moving the tank to it's current location and they were confident their hoses could reach. Otherwise the tanker could park on the farmer's lane behind and pass the hose over. 

To conform with building regs I believe there can be nothing combustible surrounding the tank (the hedge behind is a safe distance away).

Although the tank's base is strong, I still wouldn't like to fix a steel frame to it - if a tree came down and the frame shifted it could potentially compromise the concrete base. 



Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark A (13 Feb 2017)

novocaine":nmb7dyna said:


> talk with your supplier first, you may find they won't fill a tank that's been surrounded like that. I could be wrong obviously, but it doesn't hurt to ask.


Hi,

I just contacted a local oil supplier to confirm how much clearance they would need above a tank for filling (and to conform to any regulations) and apparently there are no hard and fast rules - as long as the lid can be opened we are okay. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## Fitzroy (13 Feb 2017)

There would be a lot of energy in a falling tree, especially one falling from up the bank above. Not sure how you'd work out the potential forces involved and what size of frame you'd need to adequately take the impact from one. If the tree impacts the frame and snaps at the point of impact you could still end up with the main bulk of the tree going down behind the frame and impacting the rear of the tank. I'd be tempted to consider an A frame behind the tank to deflect the tree to one side. Looks fraught with difficulties to build something you could hand on heart think will save the tank. 

Hard to tell from the photos but looks like only one of the trees is actually close enough to impact the tank with the main trunk. If so get that one felled and then you're only worried about the crown of the tree impacting, which would be a much more dispersed force. 

Sorry if none of that is actually very helpful but my brain start's to fizzle on these kinds of problems and have to get it out or it'll set me off.

Fitz.


----------



## transatlantic (13 Feb 2017)

I was thinking it would be easier to shorten the offending trees too, but I am sure you have already thought of that and there is a reason you can't.


----------



## Mark A (13 Feb 2017)

Fitzroy":cidrbc13 said:


> There would be a lot of energy in a falling tree, especially one falling from up the bank above. Not sure how you'd work out the potential forces involved and what size of frame you'd need to adequately take the impact from one. If the tree impacts the frame and snaps at the point of impact you could still end up with the main bulk of the tree going down behind the frame and impacting the rear of the tank. I'd be tempted to consider an A frame behind the tank to deflect the tree to one side. Looks fraught with difficulties to build something you could hand on heart think will save the tank.
> 
> Hard to tell from the photos but looks like only one of the trees is actually close enough to impact the tank with the main trunk. If so get that one felled and then you're only worried about the crown of the tree impacting, which would be a much more dispersed force.
> 
> ...



Hi,

You may be onto something there. 

The woodland behind is owned by the local farmer and after the tree came down he mentioned he will have to fell some more further down his lane. I could approach him with an offer to share costs, though farmers tend to work to a different time scale to the rest of us - when they say soon they could mean now, or in five years time!

Here's another picture of the tank from further down the hill:





And some more from a good vantage point:










And another:





And some from the farmer's lane:











The nearest tree is small enough to not pose a threat to a good solid frame; though I'm more worried about the trees further up the hill. Two in particular are concerning as they have become entwined, and if they were to give they could potentially bring down one or both of the trees in front.

Mark


----------



## Mark A (13 Feb 2017)

Another photo before the light fades:


----------



## lurker (13 Feb 2017)

If the trees belong to the farmer, it's in his interests to take out the tops.
Otherwise he is going to get a big bill if they fall onto your property and onto that tank.
Unless the trees were mine I would not be paying for any work to prevent the accident but I would point out to the owner this risk to his bank balance of doing nothing.


----------



## jimmy_s (13 Feb 2017)

You might be better with a below ground tank rather than trying to sort out steel and foundations to protect the tank you have at the moment.


----------



## Mark A (13 Feb 2017)

Lurker - I don't know if I could, even if I wanted to. Things work a bit differently here and if we, as people new to the area (been in and around Gower for nine years this November, but just over 13 months in this house) start "exercising our rights" it wouldn't go down well. Besides, it was our decision to move the tank to its current location - the old tank was a single-skin monstrosity placed in front of a window under the garage's eaves an next to a drain which connects directly to a stream. 

Jimmy - I'm sorry, but no chance! We bought the tank in the pictures from Gumtree for a bargain price, but it had one caveat - the owners had 800l of oil delivered literally days before selling the tank and it took a lot of Cucumbering about to sort out.


----------



## geoffshep (13 Feb 2017)

Would an A-frame, or pyramid-style structure, be better to deflect a falling trunk rather than trying to have a horizontal structure take the impact?


----------



## Phil Pascoe (13 Feb 2017)

'zackly what I was just thinking ...


----------



## dickm (13 Feb 2017)

Really think you'd be best talking nicely to the farmer, even Welsh farmers can be reasonable (I can say that, coming from a Welsh farming family!). Especially if you offer to share costs or even pay entirely for removing the trees that might be a danger! 
No need to get all heavy and legalistic about it; say to the guy that you are worried about your tank after seeing what the one that fell did, and would he be happy to have the threatening ones felled, or shortened.
Any structure that is guaranteed to catch a falling tree will cost a bomb, and as others have said, there's no certainty it'd work anyway. A good tree surgeon won't cost nearly as much.


----------



## Mark A (13 Feb 2017)

I've taken on board what you all have said regarding the trees, and ideally, removing the problem at source will certainly be better than trying to protect the tank.

The fabricator is due tomorrow so I'll listen to what he says, then make a decision from there.

Out of interest, can anyone give examples of what tree surgeons charge, based on work you've had done? Obviously, every job is different, but since we've never needed their services I begin couldn't fathom a guess.

Cheers,
Mark

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## RogerP (14 Feb 2017)

A few years ago I paid 500 quid for a couple of days work for two men to remove huge limbs from a 60 foot weeping willow.


----------



## Mark A (15 Feb 2017)

RogerP":ew0duc46 said:


> A few years ago I paid 500 quid for a couple of days work for two men to remove huge limbs from a 60 foot weeping willow.


Thanks, that quite encouraging.


----------



## AJB Temple (15 Feb 2017)

Just insure the risk? It seems a tad OTT to build a frame on the off-chance that another tree might fall, and do so in your direction, and hit your tank, and wreck it.


----------



## nev (15 Feb 2017)

Seems 500 quid is the going rate. Its what we paid to fell a very large spruce about fifteen feet from the house. Given that it had to fall in one direction only avoid house, greenhouse and sheds it was not something I was going to tackle myself with the chainsaw.


----------



## geoffshep (15 Feb 2017)

Depends where you are I guess. We had a tall silver birch and a large cherry tree removed, and the stumps ground out, for £280 - which I thought was pretty reasonable.


----------



## Neil S (22 Feb 2017)

Better be quick about it if you are going to fell any trees this year. I believe It is against the law to fell a tree during bird nesting season if birds have started to nest in it. And the bird nesting season is just starting. You can of course fell a tree with no nesting birds in it but you might have to be licensed to certify that there were no birds in it. Your tree surgeon might be able to advise and also certify it is ok.

Neil

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark A (5 Mar 2017)

Neil S":2warwdjr said:


> Better be quick about it if you are going to fell any trees this year. I believe It is against the law to fell a tree during bird nesting season if birds have started to nest in it. And the bird nesting season is just starting. You can of course fell a tree with no nesting birds in it but you might have to be licensed to certify that there were no birds in it. Your tree surgeon might be able to advise and also certify it is ok.k



You're absolutely right. I talked to the farmer about the trees and he confirmed what you said - it's too late now for thinning out the trees immediately behind the tank because of nesting birds. Maybe next year?


----------



## Mark A (5 Mar 2017)

Thanks for the advice, chaps.

We decided that a frame over the tank would give us peace of mind, at least until we can thin out the trees next year. I received quotes from six local firms and the prices ranged from £300 to £1190!

The cheapest price is also the easiest option - the guy will build the front and back sections of the frame, and once they're concreted in place he'll bring his welder out to the house and attach cross pieces to join them both together. The other quotes were to design and build a frame which could be bolted together in situ, which involved welding pre-drilled plates on every joint - much more complicated.

Several firms wanted a rough design to quote from, so below is a drawing I made on Sketchup. It's since changed a bit: the frame will be 0.4m wider and an extra upright positioned halfway along the front.

Over the last few days I've been digging big holes in incredibly gooey clay for the footings. The fabricator is intending to build the frame tomorrow, but because the weather has been so wet I haven't been able to finish digging the holes and pouring the concrete yet.

Once it's up I'll post a photo.

Cheers,
Mark


----------



## MARK.B. (16 Mar 2017)

Would a slightly arched top be more useful in deflecting a falling tree ? plus it could look a lot nicer with a few clematis of similar . As nothing has been built yet it should not cost a lot more .

opps i could be a little late


----------



## Mark.C (17 Mar 2017)

MARK.B.":2t8vqw1m said:


> Would a slightly arched top be more useful in deflecting a falling tree ? plus it could look a lot nicer with a few clematis of similar . As nothing has been built yet it should not cost a lot more .
> 
> opps i could be a little late



I was thinking the same thing!


----------



## Mark A (17 Mar 2017)

Hello Mark B & C

You're a bit late...






I picked up the frame this morning from the fabricator. 

I was still finishing off the footings at 9.45 last night - 9 1/2 mixer loads carried to the top of a hill with a bad back and damaged knee ligament hurts the next day. 

Your point regarding the shape of the frame is something I did consider; though I didn't want to overcomplicated the design. Anyway, it only has to see us through to next winter when we can trim the trees.

The concrete is still a bit soft from last night so I'll try to move the frame into position sometime over the weekend, if the rain holds off.

Cheers,

Mark A


----------



## RobinBHM (17 Mar 2017)

What does Mark D think about it


----------



## novocaine (23 Mar 2017)

RobinBHM":1zay0iiq said:


> What does Mark D think about it



he agrees. 

they are all the same person you know? split personality, lucky they all like wood.


----------

