# First import from the EU



## Rorschach (25 Feb 2021)

I know there were some who wanted updating on making big purchases from the EU so here is mine. The package is currently on it's way. I had to provide a EORI number which took just a few minutes to obtain from the gov.uk website. No problems in making my payment. The dealer is in Greece, the price I have been charged does not specify whether it includes any sales tax, I expect it to be no and have taken that into consideration when negotiating the price so I am expecting to pay at least 20% VAT/Duty when it arrives, we shall see how it goes.

Please don't bring in any Brexit arguments pro or against into this thread, I would like this to be useful information of the process of importing a 4 figure purchase from an EU country.


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## Sachakins (25 Feb 2021)

Likely will be 20% vat, plus the duty import charge, so I would budget for 30% extra.
My first post brexit purchase (from China) over £140 had 20% vat plus £9 customs charge, which had to be paid before goods released to me.


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## Rorschach (25 Feb 2021)

What I am ordering is zero rated for duty so that shouldn't be an issue.


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## Peterm1000 (25 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Please don't bring in any Brexit arguments pro or against into this thread, I would like this to be useful information of the process of importing a 4 figure purchase from an EU country.



100% agree. A sensible and useful thread.


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## Noel (25 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> What I am ordering is zero rated for duty so that shouldn't be an issue.



What are the goods?


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## Rorschach (25 Feb 2021)

Noel said:


> What are the goods?



I'd rather not say.


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## Garno (25 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I'd rather not say.



Olives?


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## artie (25 Feb 2021)

I've just ordered, from China, two replacement air filters with housings for my old compressor .

£5.64 + vat and free delivery.

I don't know how much they would have been before Brexit.


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## EddyCurrent (25 Feb 2021)

This is the part that caught me out with an item from China.

From gov.uk website.

Changes to VAT treatment of overseas goods sold to customers from 1 January 2021 

"The new arrangements will also involve the abolition of Low Value Consignment Relief, which relieves import VAT on consignments of goods valued at £15 or less."
"Online marketplaces (OMPs), where they are involved in facilitating the sale, will be responsible for collecting and accounting for the VAT. "


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## profchris (25 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> Olives?



I was imagining a mechanical item with rechargeable batteries, "Aphrodite" brand, satisfaction guaranteed ...


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## doctor Bob (25 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I'd rather not say.



arrhhh, drugs ........... sssshhhhh enough said.


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## Distinterior (25 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I'd rather not say.



I've got it!.......A £1000 slice of Humble Pie...?


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## PetePontoValentino (26 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I know there were some who wanted updating on making big purchases from the EU so here is mine. The package is currently on it's way. I had to provide a EORI number which took just a few minutes to obtain from the gov.uk website. No problems in making my payment. The dealer is in Greece, the price I have been charged does not specify whether it includes any sales tax, I expect it to be no and have taken that into consideration when negotiating the price so I am expecting to pay at least 20% VAT/Duty when it arrives, we shall see how it goes.
> 
> Please don't bring in any Brexit arguments pro or against into this thread, I would like this to be useful information of the process of importing a 4 figure purchase from an EU country.



You should find out about the VAT, if it is already paid you should not have to pay again (the principle of VAT is that the end consumer is left with the largest bill). You will, of course, need to prove it.

As the product is being exported from the EU, you may find you can claim the Greek VAT back and pay the UK one. Depending on the size of the order it may or may not be worth the effort


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

PetePontoValentino said:


> You should find out about the VAT, if it is already paid you should not have to pay again (the principle of VAT is that the end consumer is left with the largest bill). You will, of course, need to prove it.
> 
> As the product is being exported from the EU, you may find you can claim the Greek VAT back and pay the UK one. Depending on the size of the order it may or may not be worth the effort



I'm dealing with Greeks so.............


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

Distinterior said:


> I've got it!.......A £1000 slice of Humble Pie...?



Ewww no, awful stuff.


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## pgrbff (26 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> What I am ordering is zero rated for duty so that shouldn't be an issue.


I just shipped a box of 0 rated stuff to myself in Italy from the UK. They do what they want here. £164 worth of bitsnbobs cost me best part of 36 vat, 18 duty and 2% of value for paying it. £70


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I just shipped a box of 0 rated stuff to myself in Italy from the UK. They do what they want here. £164 worth of bitsnbobs cost me best part of 36 vat, 18 duty and 2% of value for paying it. £70



That's Italy for you, I have had lots of trouble shipping to/from Italy and all my Italian customers ask me to use special measures because of the corruption.


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## pgrbff (26 Feb 2021)

It is a sad fact that it is virtually impossible to survive in Italy without playing them, and I have Italian blood, at their own game. The entire system is set up on the basis that everyone cheats and unless you cheat as well you will be worse off.


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

pgrbff said:


> It is a sad fact that it is virtually impossible to survive in Italy without playing them, and I have Italian blood, at their own game. The entire system is set up on the basis that everyone cheats and unless you cheat as well you will be worse off.



Yes that seems to be the case sadly. For me it's just one of those things I have to take into account. As soon as I see where the person is contacting me from I have to change my whole attitude to doing business with them and the supply chain in between. For instance when dealing with the Chinese I have to immediately up my prices by 10-20% when giving a quote, reason being the Chinese absolutely love to haggle and get a bargain, they simply will not be happy and sometimes will not buy unless they get a discount. I have to factor this in before giving a quote then I can pretend they have forced my hand into a discount, they are over the moon and come back again and again, not realising they have paid pretty much the same price as everyone else. Dealing with Brits on the other hand, they feel bad if you offer a discount and sometimes actually pay higher than the asking price out of politeness or send a bottle of Whisky as a thank you! lol.


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## pgrbff (26 Feb 2021)

I used to do the same thing when I was selling to Italy from the UK. Up the price 30% because I knew I'd have to knock something off to keep them happy.


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## Tadge (26 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I know there were some who wanted updating on making big purchases from the EU so here is mine. The package is currently on it's way. I had to provide a EORI number which took just a few minutes to obtain from the gov.uk website. No problems in making my payment. The dealer is in Greece, the price I have been charged does not specify whether it includes any sales tax, I expect it to be no and have taken that into consideration when negotiating the price so I am expecting to pay at least 20% VAT/Duty when it arrives, we shall see how it goes.
> 
> Please don't bring in any Brexit arguments pro or against into this thread, I would like this to be useful information of the process of importing a 4 figure purchase from an EU country.


The commodity code should indicate the duty payable. I was looking for a mountain bike form Andorra and the commodity code said 14% duty - plus the VAT of course.


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

Tadge said:


> The commodity code should indicate the duty payable. I was looking for a mountain bike form Andorra and the commodity code said 14% duty - plus the VAT of course.



That assumes the seller uses the correct commodity code of course.


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## Droogs (26 Feb 2021)

OK so you wont tell us what it is but will you tell us what they claim it is? Otherwise I thinking donkeys for rides when the beaches reopen


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## Tadge (26 Feb 2021)

@Rorschach, exactly. However there are different ways of importing, you could be the importer and responsible or the receiver and the seller is responsible for paperwork etc. It’s good to check but to be honest most don’t know and is confusing. Either way, if there is a duty to pay you will have to pay before its delivered. I think its suck it and see for now. I imagine some will be ok no duty and some will be caught. That’s what I’m hearing on my mountain bike forum. My wife works at a helicopter company and her team responsible for ensuring critical parts arrive with customers worldwide, civil and military customers. She has had a nightmare for past year and it’s not easing now. An absolute headache for her….:-(



Wil be interesting to see what happens with his delivery


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## pgrbff (26 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> That assumes the seller uses the correct commodity code of course.


Why, do you think they check the commodity code is correct? My son ordered 3D printer filament from London, they were told what it was but customs randomly assigned it to housewares.


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## Noel (26 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I'd rather not say.



Thread is not going to be too helpful to others if you can't even give an indication of what the goods are. The fact that they may be zero rated according to the com code still means there is a duty implication, albeit zero, but docs still have to be raised upon import in the customs declaration. The export declaration should indicate this and indicate if Greek EPA was included. Perhaps your shipper will cover both declarations along with RoO details.



artie said:


> I've just ordered, from China, two replacement air filters with housings for my old compressor .
> 
> £5.64 + vat and free delivery.
> 
> I don't know how much they would have been before Brexit.





EddyCurrent said:


> This is the part that caught me out with an item from China.
> 
> From gov.uk website.
> 
> ...




Brexit has nothing to do with imports from outside the EU 27. The extra effort into collecting VAT and abolition of Low Value Parcels is an HMRC effort as they need the dosh.....



PetePontoValentino said:


> You should find out about the VAT, if it is already paid you should not have to pay again (the principle of VAT is that the end consumer is left with the largest bill). You will, of course, need to prove it.
> 
> As the product is being exported from the EU, you may find you can claim the Greek VAT back and pay the UK one. Depending on the size of the order it may or may not be worth the effort



Indeed, pre Jan 1st it was in the CU, now GB are a 3rd country (and customs has nothing to do with the TCA deal). If VAT/GST was paid at source outside GB nobody in HMRC/BF is going to care two hoots and UK VAT will be applied as per normal. Greek EPA is 23% odd and, if it was charged, can be reclaimed once shipping and import declarations are made and goods are with the purchaser but as the OP is not VAT registered it'll have to be on "Tourist terms" rather than any Incoterms/8th Directive and there is no compulsion upon the vendor state to receive or issue documentation in English.

I imagine all with go smoothly although there have been instances of the GB authorities not quite being up to task on many import issues - "how much can we levy on these goods" type of attitude.


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## Lefley (26 Feb 2021)

Noel said:


> Thread is not going to be too helpful to others if you can't even give an indication of what the goods are. The fact that they may be zero rated according to the com code still means there is a duty implication, albeit zero, but docs still have to be raised upon import in the customs declaration. The export declaration should indicate this and indicate if Greek EPA was included. Perhaps your shipper will cover both declarations along with RoO details.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I totally agree. How can this be helpful if we don’t know what is being imported. Even if we knew a specific commodity classification without knowing actual goods would help.


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

Lefley said:


> I totally agree. How can this be helpful if we don’t know what is being imported. Even if we knew a specific commodity classification without knowing actual goods would help.



How would the commodity code help?


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## Noel (26 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> How would the commodity code help?



What is the com code and will explain.


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## artie (26 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I'd rather not say.



Take the fifth. lol.

Seriously the actual item makes no difference. it's the process we're interested in.


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Take the fifth. lol.
> 
> Seriously the actual item makes no difference. it's the process we're interested in.



That's what I thought, some people are never satisfied though lol.


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## Noel (26 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Take the fifth. lol.
> 
> Seriously the actual item makes no difference. it's the process we're interested in.



Of course it makes a difference. The actual item, or at least the com code category, is important as the procedure can and often does differ in many instances.


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## Rorschach (26 Feb 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Did you check to see if you are liable for "Third Country Duty" in addition to VAT...??
> 
> This varies depending on what the imported item is.



Doesn't that only apply if the item originated outside the EU? If so, that won't be an issue, the product is manufactured within the EU.


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## Jake (26 Feb 2021)

Manufactured from what though?


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## MarkAW (26 Feb 2021)

How does Brexit change costs of shipping goods from China? (As per page 1)


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## D_W (26 Feb 2021)

Without admission, we can only suspect the filthiest explanation


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## eribaMotters (26 Feb 2021)

MarkAW said:


> How does Brexit change costs of shipping goods from China? (As per page 1)



I'm guessing, but your individual little packet will not be sent separately directly to the UK. It will be bulked up with a container full of stuff to somewhere in Europe, possibly Switzerland. Here the bulk delivery will be opened up and the individual packages forwarded on. I will then now be coming from the EU.

Colin


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## artie (26 Feb 2021)

MarkAW said:


> How does Brexit change costs of shipping goods from China? (As per page 1)



I didn't see any post about shipping charges from China on page one.

I got a bit confused with brexit and hmrc rule changes but nothing to do with shipping cost.


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## artie (26 Feb 2021)

Best ever laugh from Delboy was the time he tried to offload a few early Victorian video cabinets.


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## Handyoneill (27 Feb 2021)

PetePontoValentino said:


> You should find out about the VAT, if it is already paid you should not have to pay again (the principle of VAT is that the end consumer is left with the largest bill). You will, of course, need to prove it.
> 
> As the product is being exported from the EU, you may find you can claim the Greek VAT back and pay the UK one. Depending on the size of the order it may or may not be worth the effort



Uk has left the EU. You will pay duty and VAT if duty is due. I bought something from Australia cost me duty, vat and clearance. 

You will not get any Greek vat back. Uk is now a third world country as regards EU. 
Its a nightmare.


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## niemeyjt (27 Feb 2021)

No - the UK is a third country. A third-world country is something different.

And you are correct - the Greeks should not charge VAT in the first place - but maybe that is a 23% sweetener for them.

And as I understand the same will happen pan EU from July - VAT will be due in purchaser's country not seller's country - the UK is just affected earlier.


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## Jonm (27 Feb 2021)

niemeyjt said:


> And as I understand the same will happen pan EU from July - VAT will be due in purchaser's country not seller's country - the UK is just affected earlier.


That looks like an internal EU arrangement for countries in the SM/CU, which country gets the vat, where the purchaser is located or the seller. As for “the UK is just affected earlier” I do not understand, we are affected because we left the EU.

But please let us not develop this in to another Brexit slanging match, dealing with the practical issues of where we are is very useful.


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## PetePontoValentino (28 Feb 2021)

Handyoneill said:


> Uk has left the EU. You will pay duty and VAT if duty is due. I bought something from Australia cost me duty, vat and clearance.
> 
> You will not get any Greek vat back. Uk is now a third world country as regards EU.
> Its a nightmare.



I didn't realise the UK had left the EU... 

As the UK is now a third party country the goods are being exported so the seller should export ex vat. I ran a small trading company in about 15 years ago and would do this on a regular basis.


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## Flartybarty (28 Feb 2021)

Agreed - worst decision the UK ever made.


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## Rorschach (28 Feb 2021)

Flartybarty said:


> Agreed - worst decision the UK ever made.



This is not a thread for those kinds of opinions.


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## RobinBHM (28 Feb 2021)

niemeyjt said:


> A third-world country is something different


In the UKs case I'm not so sure.


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## Rorschach (8 Mar 2021)

Well my parcel arrived at the end of last week. No hold up's in the shipping process.

I haven't had to pay any fee's up front, we will see if I get a retrospective bill for VAT or anything. The paperwork shows the cost of the goods and my EORI number but no indication of VAT, gotta love the Greeks.


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## Distinterior (8 Mar 2021)

So,...Are you saying you haven't paid or been asked to pay any VAT either in Greece or here in the UK?

Did you have to do the Customs Clearance yourself or did you use an Agent or not at all?

If no VAT is or is going to be applicable and you have not had to have your Humble Pie cleared through Customs,....then I'm totally confused!!??


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## Rorschach (8 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> So,...Are you saying you haven't paid or been asked to pay any VAT either in Greece or here in the UK?
> 
> Did you have to do the Customs Clearance yourself or did you use an Agent or not at all?



So far no VAT charge here, it wasn't specified if I was paying VAT in Greece or not, as I said, "Greeks" lol.

The courier just delivered it right to my door.


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## Distinterior (8 Mar 2021)

And Customs Clearance...?


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## Rorschach (8 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> And Customs Clearance...?



As I said, delivered directly to my door, didn't have to do anything with customs.


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## Distinterior (8 Mar 2021)

The reason why I'm confused Rorschach, for more than the last 10 years, I have been importing some goods for my business from suppliers in Germany.
Obviously, from 1st January this year, that process was made far more "challenging" than before.

Back at the beginning of December, I ordered €155 Euros worth of cabinet handles from my usual main supplier. Unfortunately, they were out of stock and I was advised that they wouldn't come until late Jan/ early Feb. Normally, prior to 1st Jan 2021, there would be no VAT charged on the goods as it is a business to business transaction within the Single Market & Customs Union.
I am a VAT registered business and have had my EORI number for way over a year now.

When the order confirmation from my supplier arrived, there was still no VAT shown on the paperwork even though the delivery was expected after 1st Jan but I had to arrange for Customs Clearance/ Import Declaration of the goods through an approved Agent.

The handles were dispatched 3rd week of January and I was advised by the Agent when the package was due to arrive.
I also had to pay the Agent their fee for the clearance/ declaration BEFORE the handles would be delivered.
Their fee was £35 Pounds........

Without knowing what it was you have actually purchased & imported into the UK, you can perhaps understand my confusion as to why you haven't had to jump through any inconvenient hoops and yet I have??


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## Rorschach (8 Mar 2021)

I have no idea why you had the trouble.

My order was pretty much like ordering anything from the UK, I contacted the seller, placed my order, paid the money, courier picked it up and delivered it to my door. Delivery was somewhat slower than it was in the past but otherwise all smooth.


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## Distinterior (8 Mar 2021)

Well, it would seem you have found the sunlit uplands that you were promised.....the best of both worlds.
The rest of us will just have to suck it up and get on with it.....
Enjoy!


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## Rorschach (8 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Well, it would seem you have found the sunlit uplands that you were promised.....the best of both worlds.
> The rest of us will just have to suck it up and get on with it.....
> Enjoy!



I suspect it is more luck that I was dealing with Greeks rather than Germans.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Mar 2021)

I bought exhausts for my bike from a firm in California (ironically they were illegal there) and thought myself lucky not to have been walloped with VAT when they arrived ............ then a few weeks later got a bill for the VAT and the handling charge.


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## Distinterior (8 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I suspect it is more luck that I was dealing with Greeks rather than Germans.



Well, as long as we all only trade with the Greeks and not the other 26 member countries of the EU, we should all be golden.
I can only assume that the reason for your easy transaction has something to do with the mysterious and secretive item you imported that you are not willing to divulge.......
I dont think your personal experience of importing from the EU is a typical example.
I would be interested to hear from anyone else as to their experiences.


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## Rorschach (8 Mar 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I bought exhausts for my bike from a firm in California (ironically they were illegal there) and thought myself lucky not to have been walloped with VAT when they arrived ............ then a few weeks later got a bill for the VAT and the handling charge.



I am fully expecting a bill in the post and will update if I do.


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## Rorschach (8 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Well, as long as we all only trade with the Greeks and not the other 26 member countries of the EU, we should all be golden.
> I can only assume that the reason for your easy transaction has something to do with the mysterious and secretive item you imported that you are not willing to divulge.......
> I dont think your personal experience of importing from the EU is a typical example.
> I would be interested to hear from anyone else as to their experiences.



No it probably isn't, but I thought it worth sharing.


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## Jake (8 Mar 2021)

I tried to do my first yesterday, wine from from a Languedoc vinyard I've bought from for a few years. No go, they no longer ship to the UK, closest they get is to deliver to an agent near Calais for collection.


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## Doug B (9 Mar 2021)

That’s interesting @Jake i read a report recently the french wine producers bemoaning Brexit for a large drop in demand for their wine but if they are not willing to ship to the uk it’s hardly surprising.


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## Rorschach (9 Mar 2021)

Doug B said:


> That’s interesting @Jake i read a report recently the french wine producers bemoaning Brexit for a large drop in demand for their wine but if they are not willing to ship to the uk it’s hardly surprising.



Well that's interesting!

I can certainly understand a temporary restriction in shipping if there are new bureaucratic processes to deal with, but you would think they would get on top of this as quickly as possible, within a few weeks, in order to get back to selling again. 
To complain of a drop in sales from countries that you refuse to sell to seems madness.


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## sploo (9 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Well, it would seem you have found the sunlit uplands that you were promised.....the best of both worlds.
> The rest of us will just have to suck it up and get on with it.....
> Enjoy!


Without wishing to engage in lazy national stereotypes, I think it's fair to say that in terms of strict adherence to "the rules" the Greeks and Germans are somewhat at the opposite end of the spectrum. Same thing as when that $50 electronics package you order from China turns up with a $2.99 customs value and is listed as "pencils". Order the same sort of stuff from Japan and the paperwork will be at the opposite end of the truth scale.


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## Doug B (9 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> To complain of a drop in sales from countries that you refuse to sell to seems madness.


That’s what I thought after reading Jake’s post but it wasn’t mentioned as a reason in the piece I read.


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## Distinterior (9 Mar 2021)

Doug B said:


> That’s what I thought after reading Jake’s post but it wasn’t mentioned as a reason in the piece I read.



Try asking this question of a French wine producer & a wine importer here in the UK.....perhaps they will have better insight as to the reason as it would be a business to business transaction.


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## sploo (9 Mar 2021)

Doug B said:


> That’s what I thought after reading Jake’s post but it wasn’t mentioned as a reason in the piece I read.


The problem is that if each individual sale would result in a level of paperwork (and cost) that means it wouldn't be commercially viable (either loss-making if you absorb the costs, or not attractive to buyers if you pass on the costs) then there's no point in doing those sales - but it would still be valid to complain about the drop in sales to that country; given that the additional burden wasn't their fault.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Mar 2021)

I asked my friend who was an HMRC officer for many years what he thought. His opinion - if EU Countries are insisting on your paying their VAT, they are money grabbing barstewards. They do not have to charge it on exports, they are under no obligation to the UK government to charge it. They manage perfectly well to export to the rest of the world without either charging it or imposing other Countries taxes by proxy. If the UK government want something taxed, it's up to the UK government to tax it.


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## JohnPW (9 Mar 2021)

A few years ago, the EU changed the law on VAT on purchases of under £135/150 euro per consignment from outside the EU.

The new rule is the non-EU retailer charges VAT then sends it to the buyer's goverment. The buyer doesn't pay VAT on import. The rule comes into effect on 1 July 2021, delayed from 1 Jan 2021.

The UK has kept this rule and applied it from 1 Jan 2021, ie the non-UK retailer charges VAT then sends it to the UK goverment. The buyer doesn't pay VAT when they get the goods. 

For consignment over £135, there's no change, the non-UK retailer should not charge VAT, but the buyer pays VAT when they get the goods.

No doubt the rules are different business to business purchases.


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## Noel (9 Mar 2021)

Jake said:


> I tried to do my first yesterday, wine from from a Languedoc vinyard I've bought from for a few years. No go, they no longer ship to the UK, closest they get is to deliver to an agent near Calais for collection.





Doug B said:


> That’s interesting @Jake i read a report recently the french wine producers bemoaning Brexit for a large drop in demand for their wine but if they are not willing to ship to the uk it’s hardly surprising.





Rorschach said:


> Well that's interesting!
> 
> I can certainly understand a temporary restriction in shipping if there are new bureaucratic processes to deal with, but you would think they would get on top of this as quickly as possible, within a few weeks, in order to get back to selling again.
> To complain of a drop in sales from countries that you refuse to sell to seems madness.



How hard is it to import wine into GB? Here's the experience of Daniel Lambert, a Welsh wine importer/merchant who has been writing about his difficulties and problems since Brexit:

Jan 16th








Thread by @DanielLambert29 on Thread Reader App


@DanielLambert29: Over the past 15 days I have not only been running my company as normal but I have been faced with largest threat to its future since it began in 1992. This is #Brexit &...




threadreaderapp.com





Jan 30th








Thread by @DanielLambert29 on Thread Reader App


Thread by @DanielLambert29: I am now at the end of January 2021 and still no new stock. I can see clearly what #Brexit really means for my industry & how I will have to fundamentally change...




threadreaderapp.com





Feb 13th








Thread by @DanielLambert29 on Thread Reader App


Thread by @DanielLambert29: It’s now February 13th, a full month since my 1st thread where I highlighted just how bad brexit was turning out to be for the wine industry. Let’s see if it really is...




threadreaderapp.com





Mar 6th








Thread by @DanielLambert29 on Thread Reader App


Thread by @DanielLambert29: We have now entered March on our #Brexit journey & as each day passes I get a clearer view of just how badly the Government have let down the U.K. with their shoddy...




threadreaderapp.com


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## sploo (9 Mar 2021)

Noel said:


> How hard is it to import wine into GB? Here's the experience of Daniel Lambert, a Welsh wine importer/merchant who has been writing about his difficulties and problems since Brexit:
> 
> Jan 16th
> 
> ...


Whilst not remotely surprising to read, it enforces the belief that very few of the people campaigning on either side of the leave/remain debate really knew much about trade legalities; but only one side was pushing for huge changes whilst claiming there would be no problems with those changes - and here are the consequences.


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## Distinterior (9 Mar 2021)

I've never really cared much for Greek Retsina wine....but it appears it may be all we are going to be able to afford.


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## Droogs (9 Mar 2021)

Found this to be very interesting especially from 4 mins in


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## Ollie78 (9 Mar 2021)

Gove, would be funny if he wasn't in government. My favourite thing about him is his mysteriously missing Scottish accent. There are some videos of his earlier speeches where he has a broad scottish accent.
Was he lying then or is he lying now.

Oh wait ! he is always lying.

Ollie


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## Jake (9 Mar 2021)

I'm going to email them and see what's up. They may have an issue with their shipper, maybe they can't be arised with the hassle for retail sales.


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## doctor Bob (9 Mar 2021)

Jake, sounds devastating, well done for carrying on. I've experienced some terrible stuff but the horror story described is just beyond belief ..............
Remember you're a survivor not a victim ............. on a side note have you tried "thunderbird (red label)" used to do the trick for me.


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## Jake (9 Mar 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Jake, sounds devastating, well done for carrying on. I've experienced some terrible stuff but the horror story described is just beyond belief ..............
> Remember you're a survivor not a victim ............. on a side note have you tried "thunderbird (red label)" used to do the trick for me.



You sound super tense Bobster.


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## Jelly (10 Mar 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Gove, would be funny if he wasn't in government. My favourite thing about him is his mysteriously missing Scottish accent. There are some videos of his earlier speeches where he has a broad scottish accent.
> Was he lying then or is he lying now.
> 
> Oh wait ! he is always lying.
> ...



What irritates me most about Gove is that when he ran DEFRA, for a brief moment we got to see him earnestly and competenyly working on non-partisan policy that was both actually workable, and something he believed in.

It just makes the return to form that much more galling, knowing we could reasonably expect so much more from the man than what we get.


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## pgrbff (10 Mar 2021)

I received documentation yesterday regarding a box I shipped to myself from UK to Italy. It contained a dozen or so items, I listed the tariff code and value of each item separately. When the agent cleared it they chose 3 items upped the values and net weight so that totals matched those on the invoice, and charged me VAT, duty and 2% in charges based on the items they chose rather than what was in the box. This is the second time this has happened this year.


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## Rorschach (10 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I received documentation yesterday regarding a box I shipped to myself from UK to Italy. It contained a dozen or so items, I listed the tariff code and value of each item separately. When the agent cleared it they chose 3 items upped the values and net weight so that totals matched those on the invoice, and charged me VAT, duty and 2% in charges based on the items they chose rather than what was in the box. This is the second time this has happened this year.



Begs the question really, why were you honest on the documentation when you knew they weren't going to be honest in their assessment?


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## pgrbff (10 Mar 2021)

The system in Italy appears to be based on the knowledge that people will cheat. The people argue that they cheat because it is the only way to survive/prosper. It's a vicious circle that I suspect will never be broken.


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## Rorschach (10 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> The system in Italy appears to be based on the knowledge that people will cheat. The people argue that they cheat because it is the only way to survive/prosper. It's a vicious circle that I suspect will never be broken.



Probably not and clearly if you don't play the game you will be the one that loses.


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## RobinBHM (10 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> My order was pretty much like ordering anything from the UK, I contacted the seller, placed my order, paid the money, courier picked it up and delivered it to my door



A mysterious parcel whose contents are secret arrived with no problems.....maybe this thread is part of the govts £250million propaganda programme


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## JoeS (10 Mar 2021)

Laughable. Really laughable. The whole damn thing. There need to be criminal convictions in the future.


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## Rorschach (10 Mar 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> A mysterious parcel whose contents are secret arrived with no problems.....maybe this thread is part of the govts £250million propaganda programme



4 boxes total actually, weighing in at over 200lbs.

No problem's so far but as Phil said, might get a letter in the post soon, we'll see


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## Distinterior (10 Mar 2021)

Noel said:


> How hard is it to import wine into GB? Here's the experience of Daniel Lambert, a Welsh wine importer/merchant who has been writing about his difficulties and problems since Brexit:
> 
> Jan 16th
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting that Mike (Edit - Noel).....It rather proves the point I was looking to make.


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## Noel (10 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Thanks for posting that Mike .....It rather proves the point I was looking to make.



No problem Ralph.


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## Droogs (10 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Begs the question really, *why were you honest* on the documentation when you knew they weren't going to be honest in their assessment?


No wonder you so zealously guard your identity, if people were able to link what you write here and your business you would be destitute in a week. You do not realise most people are not on the griff. Statements like that really do make me and I would think others (the majority) consider to be rather too dodgy to do business with


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## Distinterior (10 Mar 2021)

Noel said:


> No problem Ralph.



Sorry Noel!....I've no idea why I typed Mike


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## Distinterior (10 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> No wonder you so zealously guard your identity, if people were able to link what you write here and your business you would be destitute in a week. You do not realise most people are not on the griff. Statements like that really do make me and I would think others (the majority) consider to be rather too dodgy to do business with



Well said Droogs.


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## Rorschach (10 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> No wonder you so zealously guard your identity, if people were able to link what you write here and your business you would be destitute in a week. You do not realise most people are not on the griff. Statements like that really do make me and I would think others (the majority) consider to be rather too dodgy to do business with



He is dealing with a corrupt system where his honesty will penalise him. You can only deal honestly and fairly if both parties act in unison.


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## Droogs (10 Mar 2021)




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## Rorschach (10 Mar 2021)

Ahh @Droogs , you have obviously never had the fun of dealing with international customers. It would be wonderful if everyone in the world was honest and fair and we could all trust each other. Sadly that is not the case and the Italian postal service is a prime example. If you ever have the good fortune to deal with Italians you will learn this.


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## Jonm (10 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> No wonder you so zealously guard your identity, if people were able to link what you write here and your business you would be destitute in a week. You do not realise most people are not on the griff. Statements like that really do make me and I would think others (the majority) consider to be rather too dodgy to do business with


Actually I can understand why Rorschach wants to protect his identity and what he has bought. This post is open to anyone in the world with an internet connection. If he has bought a fancy expensive bit of kit for his workshop then that is where he wants it to stay. These thieves can be very resourceful.


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## TominDales (10 Mar 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I asked my friend who was an HMRC officer for many years what he thought. His opinion - if EU Countries are insisting on your paying their VAT, they are money grabbing barstewards. They do not have to charge it on exports, they are under no obligation to the UK government to charge it. They manage perfectly well to export to the rest of the world without either charging it or imposing other Countries taxes by proxy. If the UK government want something taxed, it's up to the UK government to tax it.


Your HMRC friend is a it misleading. He is correct to say if EU countries insisting on you paying THEIR vat that would be money grabbing. But he omitted to say that the way most EU traders sell to consumers in the UK is they charge the UK VAT on goods at the point of sale if below £135 or E150 and then forward the VAT to the UK government. This is the UK process. If they fail to do that, then the courier will come knocking on your door for the tax and vat and get the EU exporter a bad reputation. The same happens in reveres for UK exports. @JohnPW is correct in how it operates.
Above £135 there is import duty to pay as well as VAT, this should be collected at point of delivery, which is why a lot of retailers have temporarily stopped exporting to the UK as retail customers are not used to paying tax to the delivery courier /postman. For this reason most UK exporters are having to set up distribution centres in the EU and vice versa or make an arrangement with a 3rd party to handle the import and export duties so that the consumer does not feel the pain. 
Most of us have run into this when buy form Amazon of ebay form US companies and then found they had to pay import tax at the customs depot in the past. Although its less of an issue now as US retailers have started to apply these charges up front.
Many Chinese traders got round these rules by disappearing and prearranging under a new trading name to keep one step ahead of HMRC. The latest round of this cat and mouse game saw HMCR require Amazon and ebay to apply 20% vat on all imports and collect the tax on HMRC's behalf which is why prices rose 20% in January. I've noticed that prices are coming down again so I guess the mice have found another way to avoid paying the import duty /vat.
Its quite involeved and confusing for us consumers.


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## Jonm (10 Mar 2021)

TominDales said:


> Your HMRC friend is a it misleading. He is correct to say if EU countries insisting on you paying THEIR vat that would be money grabbing. But he omitted to say that the way most EU traders sell to consumers in the UK is they charge the UK VAT on goods at the point of sale if below £135 or E150 and then forward the VAT to the UK government. This is the UK process. If they fail to do that, then the courier will come knocking on your door for the tax and vat and get the EU exporter a bad reputation. The same happens in reveres for UK exports. @JohnPW is correct in how it operates.
> Above £135 there is import duty to pay as well as VAT, this should be collected at point of delivery, which is why a lot of retailers have temporarily stopped exporting to the UK as retail customers are not used to paying tax to the delivery courier /postman. For this reason most UK exporters are having to set up distribution centres in the EU and vice versa or make an arrangement with a 3rd party to handle the import and export duties so that the consumer does not feel the pain.
> Most of us have run into this when buy form Amazon of ebay form US companies and then found they had to pay import tax at the customs depot in the past. Although its less of an issue now as US retailers have started to apply these charges up front.
> Many Chinese traders got round these rules by disappearing and prearranging under a new trading name to keep one step ahead of HMRC. The latest round of this cat and mouse game saw HMCR require Amazon and ebay to apply 20% vat on all imports and collect the tax on HMRC's behalf which is why prices rose 20% in January. I've noticed that prices are coming down again so I guess the mice have found another way to avoid paying the import duty /vat.
> Its quite involeved and confusing for us consumers.


I understand that pre jan 2021, imports less than about £15 incl postage from China (or any other country outside the eu) we’re exempt from vat. This was an optional exemption permitted by the eu to reduce unnecessary paperwork and costs exceeding amount collected. In Jan 2021, uk removed this exemption. As it was an EU option this was nothing to do with eu membership or not.


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## JohnPW (10 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> I understand that pre jan 2021, imports less than about £15 incl postage from China (or any other country outside the eu) we’re exempt from vat. This was an optional exemption permitted by the eu to reduce unnecessary paperwork and costs exceeding amount collected. In Jan 2021, uk removed this exemption. As it was an EU option this was nothing to do with eu membership or not.



It has been abolished in the EU as well, starting in July 2021, delayed from Jan 2021.


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## JohnPW (10 Mar 2021)

TominDales said:


> [snip]
> Above £135 there is import duty to pay as well as VAT, this should be collected at point of delivery, which is why a lot of retailers have temporarily stopped exporting to the UK as retail customers are not used to paying tax to the delivery courier /postman.
> [snip]


But people have always had to pay VAT to the courier /postman for orders over £135, before it was to sellers outside the EU, now it's sellers outside the UK.

From what I've read, the reason why some non-UK sellers are not selling to the UK is because they have to register, collect and pay the UK's VAT (for under £135 orders), and the extra paperwork is not worthwhile.

Whereas it might be worthwhile for the non-EU seller using the same arrangement to sell to the EU because it's a much bigger market.


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## Jonm (10 Mar 2021)

JoeS said:


> Laughable. Really laughable. The whole damn thing. There need to be criminal convictions in the future.


If you mean criminal convictions for people evading taxes then fair enough. If you mean it for the problems being created by leaving the EU, single market and customs union, then no. The referendum was legal, the result was leave and the subsequent two general elections have resulted in pro leave governments. Nothing illegal there and the will of the people has been actioned, eventually.

As for the difficulties expressed on this post, they were entirely foreseeable as a result of the leave vote. We just have to do our best and work with the procedures now in place. Rorschach has, so far found no real difficulties importing from Greece. It is difficult separating whether coronavirus or leaving the EU is the cause of problems, the EU countries were/are concerned about drivers either from uk or returning from uk are bringing the uk strain with them, and who can blame them given what has happened here.


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## Rorschach (10 Mar 2021)

@Jonm thanks for the post. There was a lot of speculation in previous threads about ordering from the EU and I just wanted to post something giving an example of what happened to me. Unless anything changes in the next few days the only real difference for me pre and post Brexit is that I had to get the EORI number.


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## TominDales (10 Mar 2021)

JohnPW said:


> But people have always had to pay VAT to the courier /postman for orders over £135, before it was to sellers outside the EU, now it's sellers outside the UK.
> 
> From what I've read, the reason why some non-UK sellers are not selling to the UK is because they have to register, collect and pay the UK's VAT (for under £135 orders), and the extra paperwork is not worthwhile.
> 
> Whereas it might be worthwhile for the non-EU seller using the same arrangement to sell to the EU because it's a much bigger market.


Actually the effect is working both ways as exporting to the EU without an EU distribution base can mean separate rules and registrations for different countries. Your overlll point is probalby how the market will settle down, ie the costs size of a transaction is probably going to determine the final outcome once the 'teething problems' have been dealt with. It does effect UK exports for many sectors some of which will effect us. There are a lot of UK based distributor companies, which the media tends to call pharmaceutical or chemicals companies, whose business is importing goods into the UK from outside the EU (Japan, US, etc) breaking them into smaller batches and distributing across the EU. Most of that business is no longer viable as each EU country is a separate market with its own import requirements. Some will relocate to a hub in the EU others are just stopping or reducing the range of goods distributed. This will be increasingly the case if the UK implements UK Reach as that would had a huge regulatory burden of chemicals sold in the UK. UK reach will lead to the choice of varnishes and coating materials will narrow, as suppliers consolidate to main product lines.


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## PeteHB (11 Mar 2021)

I now buy almost exclusively from within the EU because delivery times and charges are so variable. It tends to be a little more expensive and I need to shop around but I have got used to it. The only exception is router bits as it is virtually impossible to get half inch or quarter inch bits in France and also the quality tends to be poor so I will continue to source them via the UK. Axminster have already lost over £1000 worth of business from me since January 1st.


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## alanpo68 (11 Mar 2021)

PeteHB said:


> I now buy almost exclusively from within the EU because delivery times and charges are so variable. It tends to be a little more expensive and I need to shop around but I have got used to it. The only exception is router bits as it is virtually impossible to get half inch or quarter inch bits in France and also the quality tends to be poor so I will continue to source them via the UK. Axminster have already lost over £1000 worth of business from me since January 1st.


Axminster may no longer get your money but they now have their sovereignty.


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## pgrbff (24 Mar 2021)

Two bandsaw blades purchased from Ian tuff saws before Christmas shipped to my sister-in-law in Felixstowe, I just had them picked up by DPD for delivery to me in Italy. £30 declared value. £20 to ship them and DPD charged me €18 to calculate I owe €7 VAT.
How is this good for the UK economy?
TNT who do the customs paperwork must be over the moon.


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## pgrbff (24 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> If you mean criminal convictions for people evading taxes then fair enough. If you mean it for the problems being created by leaving the EU, single market and customs union, then no. The referendum was legal, the result was leave and the subsequent two general elections have resulted in pro leave governments. Nothing illegal there and the will of the people has been actioned, eventually.
> 
> As for the difficulties expressed on this post, they were entirely foreseeable as a result of the leave vote. We just have to do our best and work with the procedures now in place. Rorschach has, so far found no real difficulties importing from Greece. It is difficult separating whether coronavirus or leaving the EU is the cause of problems, the EU countries were/are concerned about drivers either from uk or returning from uk are bringing the uk strain with them, and who can blame them given what has happened here.


I'm not very academic, but I have some common sense. 
The leave vote may be legal but I'm not sure the lies that led to the people voting to leave should be ignored.
I'm happy for anyone to explain to me why I am wrong.


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## Rorschach (24 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> Two bandsaw blades purchased from Ian tuff saws before Christmas shipped to my sister-in-law in Felixstowe, I just had them picked up by DPD for delivery to me in Italy. £30 declared value. £20 to ship them and DPD charged me €18 to calculate I owe €7 VAT.
> How is this good for the UK economy?
> TNT who do the customs paperwork must be over the moon.



Well you made several mistakes there. You paid VAT twice for a start.


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## pgrbff (24 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Well you made several mistakes there. You paid VAT twice for a start.


I had no alternative, tuff saws no longer ship outside the UK. Rightly or wrongly they have always been helpful and I have faith in, and appreciate the wide range of blades available and the info to help you chose.


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## Jonm (24 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I'm not very academic, but I have some common sense.
> The leave vote may be legal but I'm not sure the lies that led to the people voting to leave should be ignored.
> I'm happy for anyone to explain to me why I am wrong.


Well Brexiteers would argue that there were many lies on the remain side. The main one being at the time of the first referendum In 1975 we were told that the European Economic Community was a trading organisation, nothing about common currency, ever closer union, etc. In this, to my recollection they are correct.

The other issue is that there is no mechanism for proceeding against those who told lies and no political will. We just have to get on with life and hope that it works out Ok. It will take probably10 Years before we will begin to see the overall effect of brexit. Maybe the UK will want to rejoin, maybe not, who knows. It was and still is incredibly devicive. Best to put it behind us and look forward.

Really we should not be discussing this here. This post is about practical issues relating to purchases from the eu, or vice versa.


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## pgrbff (25 Mar 2021)

PeteHB said:


> I now buy almost exclusively from within the EU because delivery times and charges are so variable. It tends to be a little more expensive and I need to shop around but I have got used to it. The only exception is router bits as it is virtually impossible to get half inch or quarter inch bits in France and also the quality tends to be poor so I will continue to source them via the UK. Axminster have already lost over £1000 worth of business from me since January 1st.


Ebay Italy has well priced CMT, you can also try mobiltecnica website in Italy, again CMT


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## Rorschach (25 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I had no alternative, tuff saws no longer ship outside the UK. Rightly or wrongly they have always been helpful and I have faith in, and appreciate the wide range of blades available and the info to help you chose.


 
Ok, if you are willing to pay those prices then that is your choice.


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## RobinBHM (25 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> The main one being at the time of the first referendum In 1975 we were told that the European Economic Community was a trading organisation, nothing about common currency, ever closer union, etc. In this, to my recollection they are correct


I can't understand the point you are making, a common currency didn't exist in 1975.


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## Droogs (25 Mar 2021)

@Jonm , no your recollection is infact faulty. As has been posted of several times on this site (unfortunately in the deleted forums) even the Daily Fail in 1975 explained in many many articles, that the whole purpose of the EEC was for an initial trading block and then had the goal of ever closer political and legal homogenisation of Europe. So no lies by the pro side along those lines then nor now. Lots of very big ones by the leave side.

As for " Best to put it behind us and look forward. ". With the level of feeling and commitment over this issue that is exactly _like asking a rape victim to be roomies with their rapist_ and that is exactly how it will remain, especially as most of those who voted leave will be dead before any real tangible benefits could be seen. Those who voted to remain will always consider themselves to be much worse off regardless of what occurs.

Edit
OK, I am in no way trying to belittle anyone who has had that sort of experience (I in fact know several people who have had this terrible ordeal). I am merely trying to point out how deep the emotional conviction runs in a lot of people. Other examples I could have used are Conferate citizens after their defeat, they (many whites in the South) still harbour resentment over this and it is displayed 4 generations later in the discrimination in the South. There are also the feelings of indigenous peoples who are still fighting in many places for their property and rights and even taking to terrorist action because the emotive feelings are still running very high (ETA, IRA, Serb troops in the 90s, Bosnians Croats, Morocans etc). Some of these are 10 of generations removed from the events and yet we still see conflict because of it. 

There is no way in Hades that remainers will support Brexit as a good or the right thing, they may begrudginly accept the current situation and their inability to change things just now but will always harbour a desire/need/want/work towards regaining the rights and privelages they have lost. In fact many would be quite willing for the UK to go down in flames economically (That is not an exageration) if it meant the whole thing failed and the UK had to rejoin the EU and even hope that the people responsible suffer very much. That is how much the divide is between Leavers and Remainers. Remainers feel they have had their futures and opportunities ripped from them by a bunch of narrow minded biggots who wont be around to suffer the consequences of the their jingoistic hubris. that situation is not going to change and no amount of discussion on here about it will make any impact at all. 

This thread is about how the new normal is affecting how we trade with our new situation and how it is either easier and more profitable or it is not. So far, I don't see any eveidence that is is a positive thing, except for those who do not trade outside the UKs borders or are involved in playing with large volumes of money where you can make a profit on all the misery and problems this little adventure has caused.

Feel free to remove/change your reactions if you disagree


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## Blackswanwood (25 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> @Jonm , no your recollection is infact faulty. As has been posted of several times on this site (unfortunately in the deleted forums) even the Daily Fail in 1975 explained in many many articles, that the whole purpose of the EEC was for an initial trading block and then had the goal of ever closer political and legal homogenisation of Europe. So no lies by the pro side along those lines then nor now. Lots of very big ones by the leave side.
> 
> As for " Best to put it behind us and look forward. ". With the level of feeling and commitment over this issue that is exactly like asking a rape victim to be roomies with their rapist and that is exactly how it will remain, especially as most of those who voted leave will be dead before any real tangible benefits could be seen. Those who voted to remain will always consider themselves to be much worse off regardless of what occurs.



Hmmm Droogs (and I agree with you that there are wounds that will never heal) ... your analogy is massively disrespectful to rape victims. The two things are massively different.


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## Droogs (25 Mar 2021)

For many from a clinical psychological perspective, they are emmotionaly the same.


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## Rorschach (25 Mar 2021)

C'mon chaps, comparing people who voted for Brexit to rapists is pretty insulting.


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## JohnPW (25 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> For many from a clinical psychological perspective, they are emmotionaly the same.



This probably needs to be in its own thread, but this is an interesting read:









Britain’s middle-class Brexit Anxiety Disorder


POLITICO puts Remainers on the couch — it’s not pretty.




www.politico.eu




Article intro:


> Britain’s middle-class Brexit Anxiety Disorder
> By Tom McTague
> August 17, 2018
> 
> ...


----------



## sploo (25 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> C'mon chaps, calling people who voted for Brexit rapists is pretty insulting.


That isn't what Droogs said, but, granted, the use of sexual assault as an analogy is a pretty extreme one.


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## sploo (25 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> Two bandsaw blades purchased from Ian tuff saws before Christmas shipped to my sister-in-law in Felixstowe, I just had them picked up by DPD for delivery to me in Italy. £30 declared value. £20 to ship them and DPD charged me €18 to calculate I owe €7 VAT.
> How is this good for the UK economy?
> TNT who do the customs paperwork must be over the moon.View attachment 106687


I've always "loved" how (on small value items) the charge to calculate the charge is usually bigger than the charge. Obviously you then pay VAT on the charge, and the charge they charged you to calculate the charge 

Would it not have been appropriate for the DPD package to have been declared as a gift (or with some low nominal value) - due to that transaction not being a commercial one?


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## Rorschach (25 Mar 2021)

sploo said:


> I've always "loved" how (on small value items) the charge to calculate the charge is usually bigger than the charge. Obviously you then pay VAT on the charge, and the charge they charged you to calculate the charge
> 
> Would it not have been appropriate for the DPD package to have been declared as a gift (or with some low nominal value) - due to that transaction not being a commercial one?



I got told off for suggesting breaking the law earlier in this thread.


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## JohnPW (25 Mar 2021)

The sister-in-law in Felixstowe sending it to Italy should have been correctly declared as a gift, I would have thought.


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## Rorschach (25 Mar 2021)

JohnPW said:


> The sister-in-law in Felixstowe sending it to Italy should have been correctly declared as a gift, I would have thought.



Declaring as a gift wouldn't affect the VAT charge.


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## sploo (25 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I got told off for suggesting breaking the law earlier in this thread.


I'm assuming that if there's no commercial transaction it wouldn't be dishonest to mark the package as a gift. I could be wrong though.


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## Rorschach (25 Mar 2021)

sploo said:


> I'm assuming that if there's no commercial transaction it wouldn't be dishonest to mark the package as a gift. I could be wrong though.



But marking as a gift won't affect the VAT charge.


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## sploo (25 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> But marking as a gift won't affect the VAT charge.


Ah. That sucks then.

Is there actually a legal route whereby that shipping could have been done without incurring extra charges? Obviously if it'd gone straight from the vendor to the end seller then the VAT could have been sorted, but understandably Ian isn't shipping outside of the UK due to the extra bureaucratic hassle.


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## Jonm (25 Mar 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I can't understand the point you are making, a common currency didn't exist in 1975.


Of course a common currency did not exist in 1975, that is the point I am making. The Treaty of Rome had two basic aims
1. It created a common market based on the free movement of, goods, people, services, capital.
2. Serve as a step towards the closer political unification of Europe.

In 1975 there was obviously no internet and getting hold of a copy of the treaty of Rome to read would not be easy Let alone understand. Basically we were reliant on getting information from BBC tv, ITV tv, BBC radio, newspapers and anyone we knew. You listened/watched Tv/radio when it was broadcast, if you missed it that was it.

As I recall, all of the media information was about Item 1 above, although there must have been something about item 2 but it did not seem to be a factor in the discussion. A lot of people voting had lived through the war years, close political ties to Germany let alone France would not have gone down well so that aspect was suppressed. Brexiteers would claim this was lies by omission.

When Maastricht and Lisbon treaties came along that is when we should have had the referendum and debate. To sign up without a referendum and then have one later was/is bad government.


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## Droogs (25 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> C'mon chaps, comparing people who voted for Brexit to rapists is pretty insulting.


@Rorschach, I have in no way done that. I have merely pointed out that for many that is the way they feel. I have had some one who was raped and is a remainer say she feels the same way in the aftermath of both events.


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## Rorschach (25 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> @Rorschach, I have in no way done that. I have merely pointed out that for many that is the way they feel. I have had some one who was raped and is a remainer say she feels the same way in the aftermath of both events.



I really hope she can get the help she clearly needs then because that is a seriously worrying mental illness she has.


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## Droogs (25 Mar 2021)

Thanks @Rorschach you have very elequently made the argument for me. I rest my case and fervently hope you nor yours ever have to experience it just to see how facile and despicably cruel your mindset is shown by you to the rest of humanity.


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## MarkDennehy (25 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I had no alternative, tuff saws no longer ship outside the UK. Rightly or wrongly they have always been helpful and I have faith in, and appreciate the wide range of blades available and the info to help you chose.


That has been the most personally annoying thing about all this. I've had to resort to... lesser bandsaw blades. Pretty sure a suspect weld on one was a contributing factor to the whole finger whoopsie thing as well. 
I need a "Stupid Brexit Injury" t-shirt with that picture of the cut with the googly eyes.


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## Jonm (25 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> @Jonm , no your recollection is infact faulty. As has been posted of several times on this site (unfortunately in the deleted forums) even the Daily Fail in 1975 explained in many many articles, that the whole purpose of the EEC was for an initial trading block and then had the goal of ever closer political and legal homogenisation of Europe. So no lies by the pro side along those lines then nor now. Lots of very big ones by the leave side.
> 
> As for " Best to put it behind us and look forward. ". With the level of feeling and commitment over this issue that is exactly _like asking a rape victim to be roomies with their rapist_ and that is exactly how it will remain, especially as most of those who voted leave will be dead before any real tangible benefits could be seen. Those who voted to remain will always consider themselves to be much worse off regardless of what occurs.
> 
> ...


[
Droogs, for the record, I voted to remain in the EEC in 1975 and voted to remain in the EU in 2016. (Note, we joined in 1973, the 1975 referendum was about leaving).

I think we have made a big error in leaving the EU but there is nothing that can be done about it for now. I was just trying to make the point that lying about the EU was not the sole preserve of the Brexiteers and in 1975 most people had been led to believe by the pro EEC lobby and government that we should stay in the EEC, European Economic Community, nothing about political union etc. There were no doubt articles about the political side but they were put forward by the leave supporters and did not get much airing. In 1975 we had BBC, ITV and perhaps one daily newspaper, not the deluge of information we get now. The government did not explain fully about the political side of staying in the EEC.

As for “most of those who voted leave will be dead before any real tangible benefits could be seen” I suggest you look again at the statistics. In the 25 to 49 age group it was 46% leave so nearly half. Or you could blame education, look at qualifications, A level 50% leave, GCSE or lower 70% leave. I know a lot of older people who voted remain and was very surprised by how many friends of my children, in their thirties, mostly professional people, who voted leave, one was a London Banker who voted leave. I have attached an extract from the yougov website giving the stats.

Most people do not talk about brexit. It is time to move on and stop winding ourselves up about something which cannot be changed at the moment. The EU will evolve and the common currency may force the eurozone in to something which would not suit us, who knows. We have to get on with life and wait till the next general election to see if there is a viable alternative to the buffoon.

As for the analogue with rape victims, it would have to be a very extreme remainer who feels like that.


----------



## Jonm (25 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> C'mon chaps, comparing people who voted for Brexit to rapists is pretty insulting.


Rorschach, what is going on, we are agreeing on something. Is this a short term truce or a lasting peace?

On a more serious note, sorry that I have been posting about Brexit, really this should be about the practical aspects of buying/selling with EU.


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## Rorschach (25 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> Rorschach, what is going on, we are agreeing on something. Is this a short term truce or a lasting peace?
> 
> On a more serious note, sorry that I have been posting about Brexit, really this should be about the practical aspects of buying/selling with EU.



Did we disagree on something before?  
I suspect there are plenty of things we agree on, plenty of things we disagree on and probably a large number of grey areas as well. I always enjoy the discussion though and never hold a grudge (unlike some unfortunately)

Don't worry though, normal service will resume I expect and you can go back to thinking less of me 

Oh and for the record, no contact from Customs so I think I am home and dry and I did indeed pay my VAT in Greece as assumed.


----------



## powertools (25 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> Of course a common currency did not exist in 1975, that is the point I am making. The Treaty of Rome had two basic aims
> 1. It created a common market based on the free movement of, goods, people, services, capital.
> 2. Serve as a step towards the closer political unification of Europe.
> 
> ...




The treaty of Rome did not go as far as you say.









From the Second World War to the Treaty of Rome


The European Economic Community (EEC) was created against the backdrop of post World War II Europe, with the aim of never again allowing human rights atrocities such as those committed by Germany




www.parliament.uk


----------



## pidgeonpost (25 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Thanks for posting that Mike (Edit - Noel).....It rather proves the point I was looking to make.


I followed Daniel Lambert's sorry experiences on Twitter. Poor fella. How he didn't cut his wrists is beyond me.


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## RobinBHM (25 Mar 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> I followed Daniel Lambert's sorry experiences on Twitter. Poor fella. How he didn't cut his wrists is beyond me.


He is fighting the government to try and stop them going ahead with VI-1 forms from July.

I don't know much about it other than the EU are scrapping it themselves.


----------



## Jonm (25 Mar 2021)

powertools said:


> The treaty of Rome did not go as far as you say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I did not make it up. Your link is a very short five line summary of the treaty of Rome.

I obtained my information from EUR-Lex, and I quote from their website

What is EUR-Lex?
EUR-Lex is your online gateway to EU Law. It provides the official and most comprehensive access to EU legal documents. It is available in all of the EU’s 24 official languages and is updated daily.

Who runs EUR-Lex?
EUR-Lex is run by the Publications Office of the European Union .

Here is a link to the document I used and you will see 
under “Aims” it states 
“serve as a step towards the closer political unification of Europe”

Under “Specific goals“ it states 
“lay the foundations of an ‘ever closer union’ among the peoples of Europe“




__





EUR-Lex - xy0023 - EN - EUR-Lex







eur-lex.europa.eu





I think the above clarifies what your link meant by “secondly, to take a step closer to a unified Europe”.


----------



## Jonm (25 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Oh and for the record, no contact from Customs so I think I am home and dry and I did indeed pay my VAT in Greece as assumed.


If you paid VAT in Greece but not uk, does that mean 
a. your supplier in greece is registered for uk Vat, but I thought that procedure only applied to goods under £135 in value.
b. you paid Greek vat and got lucky regarding payment of uk vat.
c. Uk is behind in collecting their vat but have three years to catch up with you
d. Something else.


----------



## Jonm (26 Mar 2021)

JohnPW said:


> This probably needs to be in its own thread, but this is an interesting read:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting article but it is dated August 2018 and a lot has changed since then. At the end of the article it says
_“In that case, what I'd try to do is help the person become more flexible — in short, to learn how to live with the anxiety, tolerate the uncertainty, and work out how they can continue to engage with what truly matters to them in life, rather than getting caught up trying to change things they can't change.” 
In other words, Remainers may just need to relax and get over it._

And that is what I have been saying on here. “It is time to move on and stop winding ourselves up about something which cannot be changed at the moment.“


----------



## silentsam (26 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> As for " Best to put it behind us and look forward. ". With the level of feeling and commitment over this issue that is exactly _like asking a rape victim to be roomies with their rapist_ and that is exactly how it will remain, especially as most of those who voted leave will be dead before any real tangible benefits could be seen. Those who voted to remain will always consider themselves to be much worse off regardless of what occurs.


This is the most disgusting analogy I've ever heard. You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## Rorschach (26 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> If you paid VAT in Greece but not uk, does that mean
> a. your supplier in greece is registered for uk Vat, but I thought that procedure only applied to goods under £135 in value.
> b. you paid Greek vat and got lucky regarding payment of uk vat.
> c. Uk is behind in collecting their vat but have three years to catch up with you
> d. Something else.



Pass, I'll take a question on Sport.


----------



## Droogs (26 Mar 2021)

silentsam said:


> This is the most disgusting analogy I've ever heard. You should be ashamed of yourself.


GOOD! Then it imparts the feelings of a lot of people in a way you can understand and appreciate. If after having to dig up the victims of mass murder and geonocide by hand for 5 months and then you can tell me the EU is a bad thing and jingoistic xenophobia is far better, I might listen.


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## Rorschach (26 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> GOOD! Then it imparts the feelings of a lot of people in a way you can understand and appreciate. If you're offended, tough. If after having to dig up the victims of mass murder and geonocide by hand for 5 months and then you can tell me the EU is a bad thing and jingoistic xenophobia is far better, I might listen and be concerned about your whinging until then, grow up learn about the real bad excrement that goes on and stop being a n 8" bit of grissle


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## Jonm (26 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> GOOD! Then it imparts the feelings of a lot of people in a way you can understand and appreciate. If you're offended, tough. If after having to dig up the victims of mass murder and geonocide by hand for 5 months and then you can tell me the EU is a bad thing and jingoistic xenophobia is far better, I might listen and be concerned about your whinging until then, grow up learn about the real bad excrement that goes on and stop being a n 8" bit of grissle


Droogs, I will not be replying to any of your future posts.


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## Jonm (26 Mar 2021)

silentsam said:


> This is the most disgusting analogy I've ever heard. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Looking at Droogs response to you, you could consider reporting him.


----------



## fixit45 (26 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> @Jonm , no your recollection is infact faulty. As has been posted of several times on this site (unfortunately in the deleted forums) even the Daily Fail in 1975 explained in many many articles, that the whole purpose of the EEC was for an initial trading block and then had the goal of ever closer political and legal homogenisation of Europe. So no lies by the pro side along those lines then nor now. Lots of very big ones by the leave side.
> 
> As for " Best to put it behind us and look forward. ". With the level of feeling and commitment over this issue that is exactly _like asking a rape victim to be roomies with their rapist_ and that is exactly how it will remain, especially as most of those who voted leave will be dead before any real tangible benefits could be seen. Those who voted to remain will always consider themselves to be much worse off regardless of what occurs.
> 
> ...


If you look long and hard you will always find something to back your argument!!!!


----------



## Jonm (26 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Pass, I'll take a question on Sport.


Ok, what is the diameter of a basketball hoop measured in barleycorns.

More seriously, getting back to your post. For businesses in EU selling to consumers in UK, referred to as B2C. It seems that the vat rules for Goods coming in to UK from the EU are:
1. Gifts valued under £39 are free 
2. Gifts valued over £39, vat is due and collected, presumably by the courier and will no doubt incur admin charges as well.
3. Goods under £135
- direct from seller then seller should register with UK VAT office and collect the VAT ( large sellers may do this but smaller ones probably not)
- Via online marketplace such as eBay or Amazon then the auction house collects the VAT. Not sure how seller does not pay EU vat. I suspect that larger vat registered sellers claim it back. Small EU non vat registered companies will have paid vat on what they buy so part of the sale price will include vat and we will pay that plus our 20% vat on top.
- direct from EU seller, not registered to pay UK vat. Then uk vat is due and is collected presumably by the courier and will no doubt incur admin charges as well.
4. Goods over £135, vat is due at time/point of entry and is collected, presumably by the courier and will no doubt incur admin charges as well.

The above bands I believe, are values excluding the transport costs but uk vat is due on the transport costs as well. And who knows what happens to eu vat on transport costs.

There is also the issue of “import vat”. Here is an extract from the guardian, “HMRC spokesperson said: “The value of the import VAT is calculated based on the value of the goods for customs purposes plus any customs duty, therefore it may appear to be higher than 20% of the original sales price.”” So if you get a real bargain then UK customs can charge VAT on what they think you should have paid!

Any Informed comments on the above would be appreciated because I am no expert in this and am just trying to understand the rules. And please let’s keep to the subject, we are where we are, let’s not go off on a pointless brexit rant about red tape.

answer is 54 barleycorns (3 barleycorns to the inch)


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## Droogs (26 Mar 2021)

@Jonm, why do real life events scare you too much? I have written from personal experience at those particular coalfaces, who are you and silentsam to belittle or denegrate by being offended my actual real world experience. Just because you have been shielded from having to deal with those things doesn't mean others have too. Because of people being to spineless to even talk about these things, they are allowed to happen when they could easily be prevented. think on that in you ivory tower


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## silentsam (26 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> @Jonm, why do real life events scare you too much? I have written from personal experience at those particular coalfaces, who are you and silentsam to belittle or denegrate by being offended my actual real world experience. Just because you have been shielded from having to deal with those things doesn't mean others have too. Because of people being to spineless to even talk about these things, they are allowed to happen when they could easily be prevented. think on that in you ivory tower


Because you are comparing things that are in no way comparable. The biggest complaint I've seen of Brexit on this thread from most people is delays in buying tools and a few misunderstanding around the rules. Having to pay a few pounds more for bandsaw blades is no way comparable to domestic abuse or genocide.


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## pgrbff (26 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> Ok, what is the diameter of a basketball hoop measured in barleycorns.
> 
> More seriously, getting back to your post. For businesses in EU selling to consumers in UK, referred to as B2C. It seems that the vat rules for Goods coming in to UK from the EU are:
> 1. Gifts valued under £39 are free
> ...


I have a feeling each European country has a separate rule.


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## Trainee neophyte (26 Mar 2021)

To get back to the original point, I ordered three bandsaw blades on 5 February, from Thebandsawshop.com . I would have used Tuff Saws, but they don't post to us Johnny Foreigner types, and I would have used Axminster but they wanted £25 for postage, which seemed a bit steep. This may have been a mistake, and time will tell. The total bill, including postage was £35 for the blades, £10 for VAT and £10 for postage. Total bill £56 and change.

Anyway, my blades arrived this morning, fully labeled with vat amount paid and all the info required, but I still had to pay €25 duty on £35 worth of blades. Rumour has it that if you receive a parcel via DHL they charge a random amount as an administration fee in addition to the duty, which can be anything from €50 to over €100, but I haven't seen that in person.

So, does anyone know who to buy bandsaw blades from in the euro zone? I can't seem to find anyone, not even when searching in German.


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## Distinterior (26 Mar 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> So, does anyone know who to buy bandsaw blades from in the euro zone? I can't seem to find anyone, not even when searching in German.



How about this company...?? They are in Trier in South West Germany....






Bandsägeblätter / Sägebänder


Sägebänder kaufen beim Fachhändler - spezielle Bandsägeblätter für Holz / Metall / Kunststoff - viele Artikel direkt ab Lager - Expressproduktion möglich




www.saegeblatt-shop.de





They appear to have a pretty comprehensive selection of sizes & type.


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## Trainee neophyte (26 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> How about this company...?? They are in Trier in South West Germany....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Duly noted and bookmarked - many thanks. A quick rummage suggests they do the right length, and I get a discount for buying 10 at a time. All I need to do now is learn German - how hard could it be?

Actually, that looks great - if only I had found it 3 months ago. Just need to make sure I don't buy Bandsägeblätter für Fleisch by mistake - purely for safety reasons, you understand.


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## pgrbff (26 Mar 2021)

Dakin Feathers suggested LD Dario | Importazione e distribuzione di lame a nastro per tutti gli usi to me in Italy.
I simply can't find any European supplier who can offer the range and advice I get from the UK. For instance, I wanted to try a bi-metal saw for resawing, I found out the expensive way that most bi-metal bandsaw blades have a tooth profile designed for metal.
Either Dictum or Dieter Schmidt keep Axminster, can't remember which. I just have no confidence in Axminster anymore.


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## Distinterior (26 Mar 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Duly noted and bookmarked - many thanks. A quick rummage suggests they do the right length, and I get a discount for buying 10 at a time. All I need to do now is learn German - how hard could it be?
> 
> Actually, that looks great - if only I had found it 3 months ago. Just need to make sure I don't buy Bandsägeblätter für Fleisch by mistake - purely for safety reasons, you understand.



Yes,....You dont want to be cutting your meat...!!!


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## Jonm (26 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I have a feeling each European country has a separate rule.


For exports from uk to eu countries you could well be correct. What I have posted is uk rules for imports from eu countries, I do not think it varies for each country, but I could be wrong.

What I find very odd is uk expecting eu companies to register for UK Vat and collect the vat, then to say it only covers items under £135. I think that is something to do with import tariffs which may then become applicable. Yes I know there are meant to be no tariffs but it is not that simple and there are things like rules of origin to consider. An extract from the guardian 
“_The UK government says European companies supplying goods valued at up to £135 direct to British buyers are supposed to collect VAT at the item’s prevailing rate – in most cases 20% – at the point of purchase. The move was branded “ludicrous” by Assen-based Dutch Bike Bits, which is among the firms that has halted all sales to the UK._

For Dutch Bike Bits, having to deal with the Dutch vat people is probably bad enough but having to register and deal with uk vat people as well, and then it only applies to sales under £135 when different rules apply seems, as they say “ludicrous”.


----------



## pgrbff (26 Mar 2021)

Just to complicate matters, a drive belt I bought on ebay for £25 plus VAT arrived today in Italy. 
For some reason, the vendor put the value at £50 or €57.50 according to the Italian post office and I had to pay €20 in VAT and charges.


----------



## sploo (26 Mar 2021)

silentsam said:


> Because you are comparing things that are in no way comparable. The biggest complaint I've seen of Brexit on this thread from most people is delays in buying tools and a few misunderstanding around the rules. Having to pay a few pounds more for bandsaw blades is no way comparable to domestic abuse or genocide.


Probably because that's the context of this thread. There are _one or two_ other little problems caused by Brexit; e.g. removal of significant freedoms and opportunities for our children, but yes: domestic abuse and genocide > all Brexit issues > increased costs on deliveries.


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## Droogs (26 Mar 2021)

Exactly @sploo, the person I was referring to has now found out that her entire school efforts have been for nothing as due to brexit and the loss of ERASMUS by the time they sort it all out she will no longer be elligible to go to the place of study she was on track to go to. she feels her future has been ripped from her just like her childhood was. She was due to go to the Max Plank institute in Leipzig and now can't. She achieve over 95% in all 9 of her subjects and was on course for funding to study Evolutionary Anthropology and genetics. Now she is stuffed.


----------



## JohnPW (26 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> For exports from uk to eu countries you could well be correct. What I have posted is uk rules for imports from eu countries, I do not think it varies for each country, but I could be wrong.
> 
> *What I find very odd is uk expecting eu companies to register for UK Vat and collect the vat, then to say it only covers items under £135.* I think that is something to do with import tariffs which may then become applicable. Yes I know there are meant to be no tariffs but it is not that simple and there are things like rules of origin to consider. An extract from the guardian
> “_The UK government says European companies supplying goods valued at up to £135 direct to British buyers are supposed to collect VAT at the item’s prevailing rate – in most cases 20% – at the point of purchase. The move was branded “ludicrous” by Assen-based Dutch Bike Bits, which is among the firms that has halted all sales to the UK._
> ...



That is actually EU law that UK has decided or had to keep, came into effect on 1 Jan 2021. From 1 July 2021 (delayed from 1 Jan 2021) EU countries will have the same rule, non-EU sellers will have to collect VAT and send it to the EU buyer's goverment for orders of under 150 Euro.


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## doctor Bob (26 Mar 2021)

We all have times where the things happens, and other avenues open up, different roads taken, sometimes it's for the better sometimes for the worst. 
This is life, I have had many set backs and often I look back and realise that if X hadn't happened then such and such would not have happened.
I understand disappointment, I've had plenty, as we all have.
The comparision you gave, would fill me with concern for that persons behaviour. I'd put that first.
Other things will happen in their life, irrelevant to brexit. What makes someone is the support and how they deal with it.
Once you can overcome disappointment, devastation, destruction it's amazing how you can bounce back from anything.
I wish her well.
The main goal in life should be happiness, pure and simple, the trimmings are a bonus but far from essential.


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## Jonm (26 Mar 2021)

JohnPW said:


> That is actually EU law that UK has decided or had to keep, came into effect on 1 Jan 2021. From 1 July 2021 (delayed from 1 Jan 2021) EU countries will have the same rule, non-EU sellers will have to collect VAT and send it to the EU buyer's goverment for orders of under 150 Euro.


Thank you for the info, very interesting. So a seller in say China, selling directly to EU customers has to register for vat with the eu or possibly each individual country, collect the vat and send it to the relevant EU country. Seems like a non tariff barrier to trade with the added bonus of collecting the vat. Very Clever. I wonder how the eu will police this, VAT officers undertaking an unannounced raid on offices in China! VAT inspectors travelling to China?

I wonder if this regulation in uk applies to just the eu countries or all overseas sellers.


----------



## RobinBHM (26 Mar 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> To get back to the original point, I ordered three bandsaw blades on 5 February, from Thebandsawshop.com . I would have used Tuff Saws, but they don't post to us Johnny Foreigner types, and I would have used Axminster but they wanted £25 for postage, which seemed a bit steep. This may have been a mistake, and time will tell. The total bill, including postage was £35 for the blades, £10 for VAT and £10 for postage. Total bill £56 and change.
> 
> Anyway, my blades arrived this morning, fully labeled with vat amount paid and all the info required, but I still had to pay €25 duty on £35 worth of blades. Rumour has it that if you receive a parcel via DHL they charge a random amount as an administration fee in addition to the duty, which can be anything from €50 to over €100, but I haven't seen that in person.
> 
> So, does anyone know who to buy bandsaw blades from in the euro zone? I can't seem to find anyone, not even when searching in German.



Since bandsaw blades are often Swedish manufacture, one would like to think you should have more choice, not less......


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## RobinBHM (26 Mar 2021)

silentsam said:


> Having to pay a few pounds more for bandsaw blades is no way comparable to domestic abuse or genocide



You seem to have forgotten....this is a forum for woodworking enthusiasts.

Not being able to buy Tuffsaws bandsaw blades is far worse than genocide.


----------



## JohnPW (26 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> Thank you for the info, very interesting. So a seller in say China, selling directly to EU customers has to register for vat with the eu or possibly each individual country, collect the vat and send it to the relevant EU country. Seems like a non tariff barrier to trade with the added bonus of collecting the vat. Very Clever. I wonder how the eu will police this, VAT officers undertaking an unannounced raid on offices in China! VAT inspectors travelling to China?
> 
> I wonder if this regulation in uk applies to just the eu countries or all overseas sellers.











IOSS







ec.europa.eu


----------



## sploo (26 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> Thank you for the info, very interesting. So a seller in say China, selling directly to EU customers has to register for vat with the eu or possibly each individual country, collect the vat and send it to the relevant EU country. Seems like a non tariff barrier to trade with the added bonus of collecting the vat. Very Clever. I wonder how the eu will police this, VAT officers undertaking an unannounced raid on offices in China! VAT inspectors travelling to China?
> 
> I wonder if this regulation in uk applies to just the eu countries or all overseas sellers.


The likes of eBay have already started adding VAT at the checkout for such sellers (who aren't VAT registered); though obviously this doesn't cover purely Chinese based sites selling direct (or rather, I guess they are _supposed_ to do it, but may not).

I've seen reports from a few sellers (e.g. US based) say that they'll have to stop shipping to the UK because it's not worth the cost of the added bureaucracy to collect VAT on behalf of HMRC. I suppose it might be more acceptable if you had to do it for one larger bloc (e.g. the whole of the EU); due to the size of the market making the added costs tolerable - but for a smaller seller, the idea of having to get yourself registered with the tax authorities of multiple countries is just daft.


----------



## powertools (26 Mar 2021)

For many reasons we are going through a period of massive change that will take a while for things to settle down.
All I can say is that with all that has happened over the last few months I am happy to live in the UK outside of the EU.


----------



## Rorschach (26 Mar 2021)

sploo said:


> the idea of having to get yourself registered with the tax authorities of multiple countries is just daft.



I agree, it is daft. But I would add, this isn't a Brexit issue, the government are not forced to have this policy, they chose it. Imports and exports could be made much simpler if they wanted to. So by all means criticise the government for these policies, I am with you on that, but don't blame Brexit or Brexiteers for the policy.


----------



## silentsam (26 Mar 2021)

powertools said:


> For many reasons we are going through a period of massive change that will take a while for things to settle down.
> All I can say is that with all that has happened over the last few months I am happy to live in the UK outside of the EU.


Interestingly the issues with importing things, especially in small quantities, might have the future advantage of things actually being made in the UK. That is depending on how the government (and future governments) approach it.


----------



## Jonm (26 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I agree, it is daft. But I would add, this isn't a Brexit issue, the government are not forced to have this policy, they chose it. Imports and exports could be made much simpler if they wanted to. So by all means criticise the government for these policies, I am with you on that, but don't blame Brexit or Brexiteers for the policy.











VAT and overseas goods sold directly to customers in the UK


How sellers deal with VAT for goods from overseas that they sell direct to customers in the UK.




www.gov.uk





See “Overview” looks like it applies to all imports 

_From 11pm on 31 December 2020, consignments of goods with a value of £135 or less that are outside:
_

_the UK and sold directly to customers (not through an online marketplace) in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) will have UK supply VAT charged at the point of sale_
I can see that for buyers it is better, the total price is known at time of purchase, no nasty surprises when goods arrive having to pay uk vat plus admin charges by the courier so total price likely to be less.

I suppose if EU is adding bureaucracy to our exporters then we have to do it to their exporters. I suspect that us consumers will end up with less choice and higher prices in some cases. As for us applying these rules to non eu countries it hardly sits well with “global britain” but perhaps WTO rules means we have to apply the same rules to all. To expect companies in China and Outer Mongolia to correctly collect uk vat And send it to us seems far fetched and how it is monitored for fraud I have no idea.


----------



## sploo (26 Mar 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I agree, it is daft. But I would add, this isn't a Brexit issue, the government are not forced to have this policy, they chose it. Imports and exports could be made much simpler if they wanted to. So by all means criticise the government for these policies, I am with you on that, but don't blame Brexit or Brexiteers for the policy.


Absolutely - the VAT collection thing is nothing to do with Brexit (and I never claimed it was); it's just happened to come around the same time so has added an extra layer of hassle.

The issue of larger blocs is relevant though (and related to Brexit). I assume (though could well be wrong- so someone shout if I've misunderstood) that a non-EU seller shipping to an EU nation would only need to register for VAT with a single (EU wide) body, rather than having to make arrangements with all the individual tax authorities of the member nations to which they wish to ship. If that is the case then it's less off-putting, due to the huge market size vs the amount of extra bureaucracy. The question then would be whether such a seller would consider it worthwhile to register separately with the UK; something which would obviously have been unnecessary if we hadn't left.


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## doctor Bob (27 Mar 2021)

When it became compulsory to set up pensions for employee's it was a right pain in the arris. Lots of paperwork, mistakes made, wrong amounts. Drove me nuts. everybody moaned.
A few guys I know said it was the last straw and either got rid of staff to go under the limit or just shut up shop.
Madness, it now takes me an additional 5 mins every 2 weeks to sort pension payments.
I look at the guys who downsized or closed and think, maybe they should have just tried it.

I hate additional paperwork, but I have never encountered anything which hasn't got easier and more refined with experience. Moaning and whinging about it never made it any easier.

Trouble is after 4 years it's now become a hobby for some,
what do you do to relax "I build model railways"
and you "I moan about brexit on a woodworkforum",
"Oh how interesting tell me more, you must have changed loads of peoples opinions"


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## Jonm (27 Mar 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> When it became compulsory to set up pensions for employee's it was a right pain in the arris. Lots of paperwork, mistakes made, wrong amounts. Drove me nuts. everybody moaned.
> A few guys I know said it was the last straw and either got rid of staff to go under the limit or just shut up shop.
> Madness, it now takes me an additional 5 mins every 2 weeks to sort pension payments.
> I look at the guys who downsized or closed and think, maybe they should have just tried it.
> ...


Very interesting comment about new pension regulations and how with time and familiarity it gets easier. I could say the same about quality assurance and the much ridiculed but sensible health and safety regulations, when applied properly.

This post is meant to be about the practical difficulties of bringing goods in from the EU and by and large it has been. We are only 3 months in to using these new procedures not four years. 

The discussion about who collects the vat, when and where is actually very relevant to this discussion. Lies told during the referendum process is not relevant and I got drawn in to that one. I actually put the Leave viewpoint which is not my opinion. It is time to stop defining ourselves as Remainers or Leavers, we have a Virus to defeat and an economy to get back on its feet and lives to live.

I have actually learnt a lot about the new procedures from this post and it is helpful.


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## RobinBHM (27 Mar 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> When it became compulsory to set up pensions for employee's it was a right pain in the arris


I never had much of an issue with the workplace pensions, although I did moan a bit about forking out over £500 for the Sage module to do it.

I must admit when my bookkeeper was away and I had to do the submission, I really cocked it up once and had to ring up sage and NEST to sort it out.


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## MarkDennehy (27 Mar 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Yes,....You dont want to be cutting your meat...!!!


No, no you don't, it makes it very sad.


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## Sandyn (27 Mar 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> no you don't, it makes it very sad


  just a scratch!!!


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## Zedgeezer (27 Mar 2021)

Jonm said:


> Droogs, I will not be replying to any of your future posts.


As a woodworker, who was looking for woodworking information on this site, I have reported this guy, no animosity, just completely off topic & irrelevant. I understand things can get heated but "mass murder & genocide" do not seem relevant terms to workshop.co.uk!


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## MarkDennehy (28 Mar 2021)

Sandyn said:


> just a scratch!!!


Just a flesh wound!


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## artie (28 Mar 2021)

Zedgeezer said:


> As a woodworker, who was looking for woodworking information on this site, I have reported this guy, no animosity, just completely off topic & irrelevant. I understand things can get heated but "mass murder & genocide" do not seem relevant terms to workshop.co.uk!


If you were looking for woodwork information, why look in the off topic section?


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## Droogs (28 Mar 2021)

Zedgeezer said:


> As a woodworker, who was looking for woodworking information on this site, I have reported this guy, no animosity, just completely off topic & irrelevant. I understand things can get heated but "mass murder & genocide" do not seem relevant terms to workshop.co.uk!


Oh my reportedf for being off topic on an off topic thread, how dreadful.


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## sploo (28 Mar 2021)

Droogs said:


> Oh my reportedf for being off topic on an off topic thread, how dreadful.


Ah, but was your topic off-topic with regard to the topic of this off-topic thread in the off-topic topic of the forum?

(I'll get my coat)


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## pgrbff (30 Mar 2021)

Man


sploo said:


> I've always "loved" how (on small value items) the charge to calculate the charge is usually bigger than the charge. Obviously you then pay VAT on the charge, and the charge they charged you to calculate the charge
> 
> Would it not have been appropriate for the DPD package to have been declared as a gift (or with some low nominal value) - due to that transaction not being a commercial one?


I didn't think that would work. I described them as personal belongings but still had to put a value on them. I'd paid the VAT on them in the UK and in theory at least I shouldn't have to pay VAT twice. Many of the items are used and mine.
I have tried to find out what the current situation is when importing from UK into Italy but if the major companies and many of the couriers are still struggling what chance do I have?


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## sploo (30 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I have tried to find out what the current situation is when importing from UK into Italy but if the major companies and many of the couriers are still struggling what chance do I have?


Indeed. It's a mess.


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## Trainee neophyte (31 Mar 2021)

I reread the paperwork on my bandsaw blades, and the breakdown was €10 for the duty, and €15 for the greek post office admin charge, on my £53ish purchase

Via the other half's Facebook, I heard a salutary tale of a box of household goods, all personal belongings, attracted a hefty tax charge over €100, but also a €650 fee from DHL. Emails back and forth with the head office (in brussels?) and this was reduced to €20. It would seem that DHL in particular should be avoided, but this is just from info gleaned from the internet - I don't have any personal experience, so Ymmv.


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## sploo (31 Mar 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> ...It would seem that DHL in particular should be avoided, but this is just from info gleaned from the internet - I don't have any personal experience, so Ymmv.


Following an 18 month customs-related debacle with Dropit Hideit Loseit some years ago I avoid them like the plague.


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## pgrbff (31 Mar 2021)

sploo said:


> Following an 18 month customs-related debacle with Dropit Hideit Loseit some years ago I avoid them like the plague.


DHL here are one of the better. Having said that my last driver disappeared and I'm told he was fired for drug dealing on his rounds.
UPS are the worst. They leave parcels randomly at different villages/bars/hotels and send me a msg to go collect them.


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## sploo (31 Mar 2021)

pgrbff said:


> DHL here are one of the better. Having said that my last driver disappeared and I'm told he was fired for drug dealing on his rounds.
> UPS are the worst. They leave parcels randomly at different villages/bars/hotels and send me a msg to go collect them.


I get the impression that couriers are like Internet Service Providers; ask 10 people and you'll get 10 horror stories about 10 different companies (and good experiences with the companies the others hate).

Case in point; I had a really good experience with UPS when I imported some machinery from the US


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## Handyoneill (1 Apr 2021)

pgrbff said:


> Man
> 
> I didn't think that would work. I described them as personal belongings but still had to put a value on them. I'd paid the VAT on them in the UK and in theory at least I shouldn't have to pay VAT twice. Many of the items are used and mine.
> I have tried to find out what the current situation is when importing from UK into Italy but if the major companies and many of the couriers are still struggling what chance do I have?


You don't pay vat on personal items. I brought some stuff into Ireland from UK. But it was useful to have this in writing before I went as customs on arrival did want to charge me as no one knew. The rules. Pulled out the email, then no problem


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## Droogs (1 Apr 2021)

I see from the news that Spain is having no problems at all in exporting a large shipment of expat gammons to the UK. Nice to see someone is getting a Brexit benefit


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## Rorschach (1 Apr 2021)

Droogs said:


> I see from the news that Spain is having no problems at all in exporting a large shipment of expat gammons to the UK. Nice to see someone is getting a Brexit benefit



In terms of an export it's pretty poor, just 0.16%.


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## Droogs (1 Apr 2021)

I didn't say it was a big benefit but it is a benefit, well for Spanish waiters anyway.


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## Rorschach (1 Apr 2021)

Droogs said:


> I didn't say it was a big benefit but it is a benefit, well for Spanish waiters anyway.



You said large shipment, 0.16% of expats is not a large shipment.

I'm interested, how does it benefit Spanish waiters?


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## Droogs (1 Apr 2021)

I'm not actually talking about meat but all the rather stuffed expats that couldn't be arrsed to fill in the forms either properly or at all, cos they are Brits and don't have to, even though they voted for Brexit and besides Boris and the Govester say that they can still live in the EU full time cos thier rules dont apply. Benefit for spanish waiters is they don't have to put up with derogatory insults from these knobs anymore.


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## sploo (1 Apr 2021)

Droogs said:


> I'm not actually talking about meat but all the rather stuffed expats that couldn't be arrsed to fill in the forms either properly or at all, cos they are Brits and don't have to, even though they voted for Brexit and besides Boris and the Govester say that they can still live in the EU full time cos thier rules dont apply. Benefit for spanish waiters is they don't have to put up with derogatory insults from these knobs anymore.


Part of me wants to gloat and call them idiots; but in reality, they're victims too. They wouldn't have voted the way they did if they had any idea it could lead to what's happened to them, but then those that pushed the Brexit vote broadly fall into the camps of the conmen who glossed over any negatives, and the imbeciles who were just as ignorant as those they were misleading. No winners; at least in the general population anyway.


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## Trainee neophyte (2 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Part of me wants to gloat and call them idiots; but in reality, they're victims too. They wouldn't have voted the way they did if they had any idea it could lead to what's happened to them, but then those that pushed the Brexit vote broadly fall into the camps of the conmen who glossed over any negatives, and the imbeciles who were just as ignorant as those they were misleading. No winners; at least in the general population anyway.


There is is a third possibility :







If you are not in the south east, and not middle class, what's in it for you? Is being a member of Europe making you richer, happier, more successful? As for the racist haters of everything immigrant (also known as brexiteers) - if you are middle - class and comfortable, you don't get to compete directly with immigrants for work and housing, so you think it delightful and liberal and worthy to have a nice diverse population - and besides, who else would pick the daffodils you buy for peanuts at the garage? If, on the other hand, you live hand - to mouth on a zero hours contract and choose not to live 15 to a room in a derilict squat as many immigrants are happy to do, competition is rife. If the status quo has failed you, why not turn the apple cart over, just to see what happens?

I know it is hard to believe, but some people actually had logical reasons for voting Brexit that weren't racist, thieving or just a personal attack on you. Me - I didn't get a chance to vote one way or the other, so not my fault.


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## silentsam (2 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> There is is a third possibility :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This seems to sum up Brexit perfectly.


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## sploo (2 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> There is is a third possibility :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem is, the above issue is not really related to EU membership (or absence thereof). I.e. how come other many other EU member states don't have the same level of inequality?

The irony is that the societal inequality we have in the UK is far more likely to be supported (and increased) by those from the political end of the spectrum that pushed Brexit the hardest. Frankly it even works in their favour; given they can convince a disadvantaged underclass that the reason for their misery is the fault of others (specifically others that they want the people to vote against).

While the EU as a body is hardly a lefty utopia, they have greater support for the rights of the individual than our current government would like, so really, the diagram you posted is a good advert _against_ Brexit, rather than for it.


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## doctor Bob (2 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> The problem is, the above issue is not really related to EU membership (or absence thereof). I.e. how come other many other EU member states don't have the same level of inequality?
> 
> The irony is that the societal inequality we have in the UK is far more likely to be supported (and increased) by those from the political end of the spectrum that pushed Brexit the hardest. Frankly it even works in their favour; given they can convince a disadvantaged underclass that the reason for their misery is the fault of others (specifically others that they want the people to vote against).
> 
> While the EU as a body is hardly a lefty utopia, they have greater support for the rights of the individual than our current government would like, so really, the diagram you posted is a good advert _against_ Brexit, rather than for it.



................... summary, "they are too thick to know what's good for them".
Very easy to post this when you're doing alright. Typical middle class patronising statement........... "look your life is the pits but don't rock the boat, just stick with it being rubbish because my life is quite nice and it would be awfully troublesome if you affected it. I promise if we remain in, your life will be just as crrap" ..............


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## sploo (2 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Very easy to post this when you're doing alright. Typical middle class patronising statement..........


Middle class? I come from a line of blacksmiths and brickies... but do I try to stick my pinkie out when drinking a cuppa so maybe you're right. Though... I've never played golf, so call it a score draw.



doctor Bob said:


> ................... summary, "they are too thick to know what's good for them".











Brexiteer living in Spain made to return to UK over deportation fears and people have little sympathy


Brits living in Spain are being forced to temporarily return to the UK to avoid being deported from the EU country as illegals and yes, it’s because of something that many of them voted for. Thanks to Brexit, as many as 500 ex-pats are expected to leave Spain in the coming weeks otherwise they...




www.indy100.com





_"...a tearful Cromber said: “Yes I voted out, but I didn’t realise it would come to this, my application has been rejected and we are on our way home – the wife is in tears, she’s distraught if I’m honest and I’m not too happy at the prospect of returning back to the UK.”_



doctor Bob said:


> "look your life is the pits but don't rock the boat, just stick with it being rubbish because my life is quite nice and it would be awfully troublesome if you affected it. I promise if we remain in, your life will be just as crrap" ..............



I suppose that, as they didn't fall for the trap of voting to remain in they avoided their lives being just as rubbish. They ended up with it being worse.


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## doctor Bob (2 Apr 2021)

Thanks for that example, sort of proves my point. Just tar us all with the same brush and it makes it very simple.


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## sploo (2 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> arrh just tar everyone with the same brush....... shame on you.
> Really what are you working class, pull the other one, if you live in a council house and have grubby hands I'll stick a cucu...... up my pineapple and parade around the village green this evening. My lineage is rivetters on the ships but I'm middle class and accept it, no porkies here.............. every tom dick and harry wants to be working class, it genuinely is becoming a real issue in society, lots of lies and people being found out, actors are the worst.
> Nothing wrong with being middle class and comfortable, just not great telling people to be happy with their lot when they aren't.


Jayzus Bob... make your mind up on what you're actually criticising.

TN pointed out that many of the poorest areas in northern Europe are in the UK. I pointed out that's got little do with the EU, and far more to do with our own inequalities in the UK.

Somehow that goes back to the victim trope about people being too daft to know what's good for them, and now we're on to the class system. I guess at least it diverts from actually talking about the real issues.

PS The claim that some were basically telling people to be happy with their lot is just daft; you have a group of people who (if not directly responsible for) are certainly pretty comfortable with the huge inequality in the UK, and those same people encouraged the population to essentially choose to further harm themselves. The idea of then trying to shift blame onto the people who warned against it is bonkers. Especially when those individuals are often also criticised as the sort of lefty Guardian-reading "elite"... who would generally vote in favour of measures to reduce inequality; so they're both stinking lefties _and_ haters of the poor. Schrödinger's liberal, perhaps.


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## silentsam (2 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> PS The claim that some were basically telling people to be happy with their lot is just daft; you have a group of people who (if not directly responsible for) are certainly pretty comfortable with the huge inequality in the UK, and those same people encouraged the population to essentially choose to further harm themselves. The idea of then trying to shift blame onto the people who warned against it is bonkers. Especially when those individuals are often also criticised as the sort of lefty Guardian-reading "elite"... who would generally vote in favour of measures to reduce inequality; so they're both stinking lefties _and_ haters of the poor. Schrödinger's liberal, perhaps.



That's what an election is for. Both sides show their arguments then the people decide who they believe and what direction they want the country to go. It was on remainers to show an argument why remaining in the EU was best, which they failed to do, especially considering most MSM, politicians and big businesses were on the remain side. The argument was basically "remain and everything stays the same" which wasn't something most people wanted.


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## doctor Bob (3 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> That's what an election is for. Both sides show their arguments then the people decide who they believe and what direction they want the country to go. It was on remainers to show an argument why remaining in the EU was best, which they failed to do, especially considering most MSM, politicians and big businesses were on the remain side. The argument was basically "remain and everything stays the same" which wasn't something most people wanted.



You would think so ....................
However if this was cricket, Sploo bowled middle wicket, would still be at the crease arguing with the umpire that it never hit the stumps and threatening to take the bat and ball home.
Cricket is a bad example, sploo sounds more working class, bar billiards or pidgeon fancier.
My mental image of Sploo used to be David Mitchell, from now on it will be Brian Glover.


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

I doubt there are any gentleman woodworkers (what most people on this forum are) that are working class. Just because you worked for a living doesn't make you working class.


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## sploo (3 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> That's what an election is for. Both sides show their arguments then the people decide who they believe and what direction they want the country to go. It was on remainers to show an argument why remaining in the EU was best, which they failed to do, especially considering most MSM, politicians and big businesses were on the remain side. The argument was basically "remain and everything stays the same" which wasn't something most people wanted.


And the Leave argument was basically "leave and you'll get absolutely everything". It was a great (and successful) pitch; but it doesn't mean it wasn't a deception. Just ask the folks being kicked out of Spain (as one of a great many examples).


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## sploo (3 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> You would think so ....................
> However if this was cricket, Sploo bowled middle wicket, would still be at the crease arguing with the umpire that it never hit the stumps and threatening to take the bat and ball home.
> Cricket is a bad example, sploo sounds more working class, bar billiards or pidgeon fancier.
> My mental image of Sploo used to be David Mitchell, from now on it will be Brian Glover.


This whole class thing seems to have triggered you a bit Bob, so why bring it up in the first place?

Daft thing is; I don't really care (or even tend to think) of "working" class vs "middle" class - it's a really outdated and backwards concept. People are just people.


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## Jester129 (3 Apr 2021)

I'm saying nowt, especially after my major rant that got deleted last time...


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## silentsam (3 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> And the Leave argument was basically "leave and you'll get absolutely everything". It was a great (and successful) pitch; but it doesn't mean it wasn't a deception. Just ask the folks being kicked out of Spain (as one of a great many examples).


I'm not on either side but let's not play that game. Remain's side was pretty much "leave and we'll all be poor and dead in a week". Both sides argued their case and people decided who to believe.


----------



## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> If you are not in the south east, and not middle class, what's in it for you? Is being a member of Europe making you richer, happier, more successful



Which is totally dishonest of course.

What it should say is: "has 4 decades of UK neo liberalism causing decline in the industrial regions whilst concentrating wealth in the South East, made people in the poorest regions happier."

Its been rather handy for our politicians to blame domestic policy failures on EU membership. 

Sadly Brexit means more money going to the South East and more decline in the industrial regions.


----------



## doctor Bob (3 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> This whole class thing seems to have triggered you a bit Bob, so why bring it up in the first place?
> 
> Daft thing is; I don't really care (or even tend to think) of "working" class vs "middle" class - it's a really outdated and backwards concept. People are just people.



That's why you lost though, you blended the haves and have nots together. Pretend there is no class system, we are all in the same boat.
The gulf in classes is enormous, today it could be broken down into, welfare state and poor workers / middle income bracket / well to do.
All very modern and woke to say it doesn't exist, for offending people but it's there big time, if you can't see it you are in a bubble. Do you really think the guy getting £63 a week benifit feels similar (same bracket) to you.


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## Trainee neophyte (3 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Which is totally dishonest of course.
> 
> What it should say is: "has 4 decades of UK neo liberalism causing decline in the industrial regions whilst concentrating wealth in the South East, made people in the poorest regions happier."
> 
> ...


Am I being dishonest, or is it the people doing the voting being dishonest? The point and thrust of my post is that people didn't vote Brexit because they are vindictive, racist and evil. As has already been said, the status quo has failed a significant number, so the vote to overturn the status quo won the majority. 

I absolutely agree with you about the neoliberalism, but it may also have to do with North Sea Oil - an overly strong exchange rate meant manufacturing couldn't compete. Financialisation took up the slack, and now the bankers own everything "in fee simple", I think the quote goes. Good news is that the pound won't be considered a reserve currency for much longer, so after the hyperinflation shock, there should be some scope for manufacturing again. The tricky part will be keeping body and soul together during the transition.


----------



## silentsam (3 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> This whole class thing seems to have triggered you a bit Bob, so why bring it up in the first place?
> 
> Daft thing is; I don't really care (or even tend to think) of "working" class vs "middle" class - it's a really outdated and backwards concept. People are just people.


Didn't the recent race report say that the biggest impact on peoples outcomes in life isn't race but class?

I didn't want to quote the report really as I know it's controversial but if they are quoting class as the biggest impact in peoples lives it is obviously somewhat significant and to pretend the divide isn't significant and getting bigger is foolish.


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## silentsam (3 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Sadly Brexit means more money going to the South East and more decline in the industrial regions.



The theory I've heard from some people who voted Brexit seems to be along the lines that the remain side suggest it'll make them poorer but how can you lose something when you have nothing? Someone above mentioned £63 a week in benefits... how can that get much worse really? If you have nothing you'll take a risk to try and improve things, if you are already financially secure you don't want to rock the boat.


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## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Am I being dishonest, or is it the people doing the voting being dishonest? The point and thrust of my post is that people didn't vote Brexit because they are vindictive, racist and evil. As has already been said, the status quo has failed a significant number, so the vote to overturn the status quo won the majority.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you about the neoliberalism, but it may also have to do with North Sea Oil - an overly strong exchange rate meant manufacturing couldn't compete. Financialisation took up the slack, and now the bankers own everything "in fee simple", I think the quote goes. Good news is that the pound won't be considered a reserve currency for much longer, so after the hyperinflation shock, there should be some scope for manufacturing again. The tricky part will be keeping body and soul together during the transition.


my apologies I wasnt claiming you were being dishonest.

Im not sure its the people doing the voting being dishonest -they were told EU and immigrants were the faults and that brexit would solve them....which of course is untrue.

Im not sure either what you mean the vote was to overturn the status quo -this country and its media has been run by neo liberal policies for decades, brexit wont change that.

Its untrue to claim strong exchange rate has meant manufacturing cant compete -UK manufacturers buy parts from abroad, so a weaker pound increases the cost of their supplies. Since 2016 a weaker pound has not meant any benefits for UK industry as far as I can see.


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## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The theory I've heard from some people who voted Brexit seems to be along the lines that the remain side suggest it'll make them poorer but how can you lose something when you have nothing? Someone above mentioned £63 a week in benefits... how can that get much worse really? If you have nothing you'll take a risk to try and improve things, if you are already financially secure you don't want to rock the boat.



That is true -my brother in law is a senior manager in the salvation army and he has been visiting the poor regions for years and has said the high leave voting in these constituencies was entirely reasonable.

You can certainly be worse off when you have nothing -look at the introduction of Universal credit and the savage PIPs assessments. Voting for more of the same can absolutely make things worse. But I agree, when you have nothing, you will vote for change, even if it isnt what it seems


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## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

In returning to the thread topic, what it would be interesting to know exactly what is teething troubles and what is permanent.


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## sploo (3 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> That's why you lost though, you blended the haves and have nots together. Pretend there is no class system, we are all in the same boat.
> The gulf in classes is enormous, today it could be broken down into, welfare state and poor workers / middle income bracket / well to do.
> All very modern and woke to say it doesn't exist, for offending people but it's there big time, if you can't see it you are in a bubble. Do you really think the guy getting £63 a week benifit feels similar (same bracket) to you.


Dammit Bob - every time I'm ready to dismiss your posts as trolling you go and make a very good point like the above.

I wasn't meaning being "modern and woke" with a lack of interest in class - more than I don't personally try to discriminate in that area; but yes, it definitely exists in society, and I have no doubt it does colour people's world outlook.

The problem is that the guy getting £63 a week on benefits is an easy target for the manipulative. His life isn't great, and he'll readily accept an offer of change. Along come people promising great things, when in reality any changes they have in mind (e.g. working conditions, personal rights, food standards) would be negative for him, and indeed they're also likely proponents of an economic view that - if not putting the guy there in the first place - certainly aren't in favour of doing anything to help him.

As Robin noted above, "_You can certainly be worse off when you have nothing_"; and I suspect in at least the medium term many of those at the bottom are sadly going to find that out.


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## silentsam (3 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> The problem is that the guy getting £63 a week on benefits is an easy target for the manipulative. His life isn't great, and he'll readily accept an offer of change. Along come people promising great things, when in reality any changes they have in mind (e.g. working conditions, personal rights, food standards) would be negative for him, and indeed they're also likely proponents of an economic view that - if not putting the guy there in the first place - certainly aren't in favour of doing anything to help him.



"the people" are now able to directly vote for the changes they want through elections. Sure it's not a direct vote but if working conditions are negatively changed by one party the party that oppose them will be able to use that to get elected next time. The only issue with this is that Labour have turned their back on the working class and will need huge changes to bring them back on side. The tories are winning in areas that were unthinkable even 10 years ago. With time they'll either move back towards the people or be replaced by another party, UKIP/Brexit Party did show that new parties are possible and can get huge number of votes so there is nothing stopping a similar party setting up on the centre-left.


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## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> UKIP/Brexit Party did show that new parties are possible and can get huge number of votes


Although neither have ever had any representation to speak of in Westminster.
New parties will never succeed until FPTP ends

Labour can't win because it is effectively 2 parties: socialist and moderate left.


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## sploo (3 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> "the people" are now able to directly vote for the changes they want through elections. Sure it's not a direct vote but if working conditions are negatively changed by one party the party that oppose them will be able to use that to get elected next time. The only issue with this is that Labour have turned their back on the working class and will need huge changes to bring them back on side. The tories are winning in areas that were unthinkable even 10 years ago. With time they'll either move back towards the people or be replaced by another party, UKIP/Brexit Party did show that new parties are possible and can get huge number of votes so there is nothing stopping a similar party setting up on the centre-left.


Whilst no fan of Labour, I'm not sure they've turned their backs on the working class - more that the Tories have recently been more successful in connecting with the things that matter to them (or rather, the things they've been told should matter to them). The problem I have with it is the dishonesty; I've no problem with a political party having policies that favour cuts to social services and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor (it's a free country and all that) - just don't have those policies and then pretend (for example) to be big supporters of the NHS.

Same issue with the Leave campaign; tell the downtrodden that you support them, when in fact their personal politics (and desired outcomes should the country leave) were specifically harmful to "the common man".

As for UKIP showing that a new party can gain votes - they managed a sum total of one MP, once; and Farage was beaten by a bloke dressed as a dolphin. They certainly did however manage to gain significant influence; but mostly by drawing hardline Tory voters away, and scaring the Tories into becoming UKIP-lite.


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## doctor Bob (4 Apr 2021)

sploo are you Kier Starmer? .............. you seem to be wiffle waffling, re stating your stated position and changing your opinion regularly.


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## TFrench (4 Apr 2021)

Just in the interest of dragging this away from an argument, I'm trying to buy something in greece and struggling to find a shipper - I'll be one euro pallet. Value is very low (cabinet for a milling machine I have) If @Rorschach or @Trainee neophyte (or anyone else) have any bright ideas for who to contact please PM me!


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## Rorschach (4 Apr 2021)

TFrench said:


> Just in the interest of dragging this away from an argument, I'm trying to buy something in greece and struggling to find a shipper - I'll be one euro pallet. Value is very low (cabinet for a milling machine I have) If @Rorschach or @Trainee neophyte (or anyone else) have any bright ideas for who to contact please PM me!



My item came using TNT, the price was ok but they were very slow, 3 weeks I think it took in total. It was only one of that mini pallets though so their prices for a full size could be a lot more, different companies have weird pricing schedules.

I had a domestic pallet delivered a few months back via DPD and that was a good price, I know it's only a UK rate but I thought it was good value and worth asking their european rate, it was £40 for a 1 ton pallet, flat rate 2 days delivery. Mine only weighed 1/2 ton, I was still happy at that price though. 

Definitely worth asking who the locals use and TN might have an idea here.


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## Trainee neophyte (4 Apr 2021)

I have sent Mr French a message but might as well put it in the thread, too.

Firstly, don't use a Greek shipping company - they have have a closed shop arrangement, and charge the earth.

We use a company called Nomad International - they are are bit slow, in that they only do a run once or twice a month, but they take olive oil, unlike almost everyone else, and they don't need a pallet - they are actually a house removals company. Removals to Greece, Italy & the Mediterranean - Nomad International . They charge by volume, and will take anything "two men can lift".

If that doesn't work, I can also get you a Polish man-with-a-van, but that uses the wife's Facebook account, so marginally more tricky. Let me know if I can help. BTW, where is the cabinet? It may make a difference.


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## Blackswanwood (4 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> , I can also get you a Polish man-with-a-van, but that uses the wife's Facebook account, so marginally more tricky.



That sounds like the makings of a Guy Ritchie film


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## clogs (4 Apr 2021)

thanks for that......
just gonna say the same as T/neophyte.......
also, I have a guy who does make reg trips to the UK in a truck...he's based in Athens.....
he's just bringing our last parcel from the UK.....
He transports animals (dog's n horses) and open to oppertunities....so far all reports that he charges a fair rate.....
Nomad run from Crete ( Vamos, my next village) then via Athens to Peterborough........they use 40ft artics and occ luton transits....


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## TFrench (4 Apr 2021)

The cabinet is in Patras which I think is a little off the truck route for the UK - assuming they run up through the Balkans, if they ferry to Italy and then up it would be perfect. I'll try Nomad again, the guy said he thought it sounded too big, I'll try to persuade them!


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## sploo (6 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> sploo are you Kier Starmer? .............. you seem to be wiffle waffling, re stating your stated position and changing your opinion regularly.


Back to content-free trolling then I see


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## doctor Bob (6 Apr 2021)

Guys, love your company, however, Dad needs to go into a nursing home asap, Mum can't cope, need to get power of attourney sorted, first day of Garden studio build, up to my neck in work, second business going mental.
I'm dropping out as this thread is irrelevant in the big picture. May be back in a week or two.
Good luck to all of you, Jacob, sploo, Robin and Noel, honestly, I like you all, I'm quietly confident that I really don't get to any of you, and the reverse is true as well


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## Blackswanwood (6 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Guys, love your company, however, Dad needs to go into a nursing home asap, Mum can't cope, need to get power of attourney sorted, first day of Garden studio build, up to my neck in work, second business going mental.
> I'm dropping out as this thread is irrelevant in the big picture. May be back in a week or two.
> Good luck to all of you, Jacob, sploo, Robin and Noel, honestly, I like you all, I'm quietly confident that I really don't get to any of you, and the reverse is true as well


Sorry to hear that about your Mum and Dad - hope you get them settled and sorted quickly.


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## Nick Laguna UK (6 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Guys, love your company, however, Dad needs to go into a nursing home asap, Mum can't cope, need to get power of attourney sorted, first day of Garden studio build, up to my neck in work, second business going mental.
> I'm dropping out as this thread is irrelevant in the big picture. May be back in a week or two.
> Good luck to all of you, Jacob, sploo, Robin and Noel, honestly, I like you all, I'm quietly confident that I really don't get to any of you, and the reverse is true as well


doctor Bob - I wish you all the best - we are in similar situation except Spanish father in law is in Spain & power of attorney gone - we need to get over there asap to sort things as we didn't realise how bad it all was after not being able to visit for a long time etc. He also needs 24hr care asap whilst we are both still stuck here working flat out and trying to sort it remotely..
I haven't contributed to this thread but have enjoyed reading yours and others differing opinions - and the to and fro-ing has been just what an open forum was created for.
I hope you get things sorted.
Nick.


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## francovendee (6 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> That's what an election is for. Both sides show their arguments then the people decide who they believe and what direction they want the country to go. It was on remainers to show an argument why remaining in the EU was best, which they failed to do, especially considering most MSM, politicians and big businesses were on the remain side. The argument was basically "remain and everything stays the same" which wasn't something most people wanted.


Unfortunately elections rarely reflect the majority view. I wish it were otherwise but until some form of PR is in place you can't know for sure .


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## artie (8 Apr 2021)

Posted for humour value only. please don't get you y fronts in a wad..


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## Trainee neophyte (8 Apr 2021)

Another parcel arrived from the UK yesterday. Value just over £100, UK VAT paid (albeit hardly anything because it contains herbs and spices etc).

€40 required on collection: 25% duty plus €15 admin fee for the post office. Last week we received €100 worth of clothes and other tat from China, and as usual no additional fees were required. 

My understanding is that, although Ms Merkel forced forced an agreement through before Christmas, there is no EU trade deal with China in place yet, so why do Chinese goods not attract punitive duty when UK goods do? It's not as if Europe collectively is vindictive and protectionist and trying to make a point, so what could the reason be? Anyone know?


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Europe collectively is vindictive and protectionist and trying to make a point


I see you up to your dishonest tricks as usual. 
Are you unable to debate honestly, ever?

Tell me, does the EU run every courier business, does it have a special directive telling exporters they must be vindictive? 

Or is it that imports exports between EU and UK have been gloriously frictionless for many decades and now the couriers, customs agents, hauliers are now having to deal with masses of Brexit red tape.

10,000 trucks going through Dover every day......I can't imagine why putting a heap of Brexit red tape on each lorry would cause a load of grief


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Guys, love your company, however, Dad needs to go into a nursing home asap, Mum can't cope, need to get power of attourney sorted


Sadly that's been happening to me over the past 3 years or so. My Dad stayed at home but got too frail to cope, my FIL got Lewy body dementia and had to go into a care home. Just at the start of the 1st lockdown last year. The home cost £1300 a week and we couldn't even go and visit.

It's all horrible really, my best regards to you with dealing with all that. 
Be careful with care homes, many are owned by the big corporates like careUK. Fancy receptions but operate with skeleton care staff on minimum wage.


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I see you up to your dishonest tricks as usual.
> Are you unable to debate honestly, ever?
> 
> Tell me, does the EU run every courier business, does it have a special directive telling exporters they must be vindictive?
> ...



I don't think he's being dishonest, just making a point.

The rules on tariffs, tax and so on within the EU are set by the EU, given their single market and customs union, not by the couriers and postal services. Whatever your point of view of the EU, it does have a history of being rather protectionist, and it does have a vested interest in making life for the UK as tricky as possible to dissuade other countries from leaving.


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## Trainee neophyte (8 Apr 2021)

@RobinBHM - please explain to me, because I don't understand, why i must pay punitive duty on goods imported from the UK, but not from goods imported from China. I can probably import from other countries too, without duty being charged - last time I bought something from the USA I didn't pay duty, but it was a couple of years ago, and things may have changed.

BTW, I don't go out of my way to write things purely to make you seethe - it is not intentional. I really am sorry if you get upset by what I write, or the way I write.


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

artie said:


> Posted for humour value only. please don't get you y fronts in a wad..


The icing on the cake is the misspelling of "Benefits"


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> @RobinBHM - please explain to me, because I don't understand, why i must pay punitive duty on goods imported from the UK, but not from goods imported from China. I can probably import from other countries too, without duty being charged - last time I bought something from the USA I didn't pay duty, but it was a couple of years ago, and things may have changed.
> 
> BTW, I don't go out of my way to write things purely to make you seethe - it is not intentional. I really am sorry if you get upset by what I write, or the way I write.


Genuine question: Is that not more likely because the UK<->EU deliveries are done "by the book", but the Chinese deliveries have a tendency to be listed as "pencils" and valued at $1.27? I.e. you/I/we _should_ also be paying the same duty on goods from China?


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## selectortone (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> @RobinBHM - please explain to me, because I don't understand, why i must pay punitive duty on goods imported from the UK, but not from goods imported from China. I can probably import from other countries too, without duty being charged - last time I bought something from the USA I didn't pay duty, but it was a couple of years ago, and things may have changed.
> 
> BTW, I don't go out of my way to write things purely to make you seethe - it is not intentional. I really am sorry if you get upset by what I write, or the way I write.


It's because China is still considered a 'developing nation' by the UN. The UN Universal Postal Union allows China to ship small parcels at massively subsidised rates and also avoid VAT in many cases. To add insult to injury the subsidies are paid by the destination nations - in the UK's case by the Post Office. 

If you google "UN UPU China subsidies" there's pages and pages of stuff on it.

Quite why the UN classes on of the most poweful countries in the world as a 'developing nation' is a good question.


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## Noel (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Another parcel arrived from the UK yesterday. Value just over £100, UK VAT paid (albeit hardly anything because it contains herbs and spices etc).
> 
> €40 required on collection: 25% duty plus €15 admin fee for the post office. Last week we received €100 worth of clothes and other tat from China, and as usual no additional fees were required.
> 
> My understanding is that, although Ms Merkel forced forced an agreement through before Christmas, there is no EU trade deal with China in place yet, so why do Chinese goods not attract punitive duty when UK goods do? It's not as if Europe collectively is vindictive and protectionist and trying to make a point, so what could the reason be? Anyone know?



You and others are conflating trade agreements with customs. Two separate entities - trade agreements help with the flow of goods, customs protect that flow of goods.


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## alexalexander (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> The rules on tariffs, tax and so on within the EU are set by the EU, given their single market and customs union, not by the couriers and postal services. Whatever your point of view of the EU, it does have a history of being rather protectionist, and it does have a vested interest in making life for the UK as tricky as possible to dissuade other countries from leaving.



Not true. the rules are not set by the EU - they are set by each country independently. For example, VAT is not the same across the EU. and import taxes and tarifs are defined by each country.


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## Spectric (8 Apr 2021)

But the EU is not going to give the Uk a bed of roses and lots of perks because these are for it's members, if we get an easy time and plain sailing then it could open the floodgates for other members to leave. 

The question is that whilst the Eu and the Uk are having issues the real players like China and others are just becoming bigger and bigger economic powerhouses that I think both the Uk and the Eu rely on a lot more than than realise and the real trade will become the chinese silk road as they drive it right through Europe.


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Apr 2021)

alexalexander said:


> Not true. the rules are not set by the EU - they are set by each country independently. For example, VAT is not the same across the EU. and import taxes and tarifs are defined by each country.




The countries of the EU do indeed set their own rules on VAT and tariffs, but can only do so within the stipulations of the EU directives governing the single market and customs union.

When the UK was part of the EU, we had to follow those rules too. Remember the hoo-ha about 'tampon tax'? The UK could not unilaterally reduce the VAT rate on sanitary products despite public pressure, because we would be in contravention of the EU VAT directives.


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## alexalexander (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> The countries of the EU do indeed set their own rules on VAT and tariffs, but can only do so within the stipulations of the EU directives governing the single market and customs union.
> 
> When the UK was part of the EU, we had to follow those rules too. Remember the hoo-ha about 'tampon tax'? The UK could not unilaterally reduce the VAT rate on sanitary products despite public pressure, because we would be in contravention of the EU VAT directives.



Regarding the 'tampon tax'. EU countries have historically not been allowed to create zero rated items but there has been a minimum rate of 5% which any country could have applied to sanitary products if it so wished. The UK didn't do this when it was able to and waited until it became politically expedient to completely remove the tax post brexit. A zero rate has been agreed by the EU parliament but for some reason or other seems not to be enacted till next year. If the countries who have pushed for the zero rate had tried harder maybe it could have been earlier. Notwithstanding, Ireland has already a zero rate on tampons despite the rules.


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Apr 2021)

There you go then - the EU do set the rules, albeit indirectly, at the moment. The principle of 'ever closer union' will mean increasing tax harmonisation across the EU, to the point where individual countries have no, or virtually no, ability to set or vary their own tax rates.

Same with tariffs. Same with virtually everything else.


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## Cooper (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> why i must pay punitive duty on goods imported from the UK, but not from goods imported from China.


I send stuff to my daughter and grandchildren in Munich, anything unless its marked as a gift seems to be considered a commercial transaction and the courier starts charging extra adding handling fees, even when there is no duty. I sent a batch of 10 amateur paintings and photographs from my parents home on Tuesday, all over 70 years old and not in brilliant condition of no value, other than sentimental. They charged Amy 10 Euros to deliver and it had to be paid within 12 hours or they would send it back to UK . The cynic in me thinks its the courier taking us all for a ride.


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## TominDales (9 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> That's what an election is for. Both sides show their arguments then the people decide who they believe and what direction they want the country to go. It was on remainers to show an argument why remaining in the EU was best, which they failed to do, especially considering most MSM, politicians and big businesses ere on the remain side. The argument was basically "remain and everything stays the same" which wasn't something most people wanted.


Absolutely correct. We have elections every 4 years or so. If people don't like Brexit, or the government they can vote to change it. In the 1960s and 70s the country couldn't make up its mind on economic policy, so it voted one way then the other and back until in the end it settled on a way forward for a bit. I suspect we will go through a few of these changes voting in a governments that sign up to a lot of treaties bringing the UK in close alignment with the EU (cf Switzerland) and then out again for a while until the population gets a groove they like. In the meantime problems in society cant be blamed on anyone but our own institutions.


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## alexalexander (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> There you go then - the EU do set the rules, albeit indirectly, at the moment. The principle of 'ever closer union' will mean increasing tax harmonisation across the EU, to the point where individual countries have no, or virtually no, ability to set or vary their own tax rates.
> 
> Same with tariffs. Same with virtually everything else.



That's only true if you believe that 'ever closer union' will occur. It's a principle that's expounded by a few politicians in the EU and the right wing EU bashing UK press, but it's not the majority view in Europe. The cultural and political differences within the 27 make it difficult so see how it could actually happen - it can't be something imposed EU wide as they all have a veto - and politicians in the countries are not campaigning for it.


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Apr 2021)

alexalexander said:


> That's only true if you believe that 'ever closer union' will occur. It's a principle that's expounded by a few politicians in the EU and the right wing EU bashing UK press, but it's not the majority view in Europe. The cultural and political differences within the 27 make it difficult so see how it could actually happen - it can't be something imposed EU wide as they all have a veto - and politicians in the countries are not campaigning for it.


If you believe that, you'll believe anything. 'Ever closer union' has been the sole intention ever since the days of Jean Monnet and the European Coal and Steel Community. Each succeeding treaty has brought it one step closer.


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## alexalexander (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> If you believe that, you'll believe anything. 'Ever closer union' has been the sole intention ever since the days of Jean Monnet and the European Coal and Steel Community. Each succeeding treaty has brought it one step closer.


Not a great example to quote. Monet is credited with ideas bringing the European nations together post war and was a strong link between Europe and the United States at that time. But the Schuman plan based on Monet's ideas and the ECSC model were both rejected by the statesmen who organised the EEC in 1957. And as for 'believing anything' - I certainly don't believe you are correct.


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Apr 2021)

We'll have to agree to disagree, then.


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## JohnPW (9 Apr 2021)

The EU itself has diplomatic missions and ambassadors all over the world, all enjoying full diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations!

Make of that what you will.


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