# Chisel primary bevel sharpening.



## Bluekingfisher (3 Nov 2015)

while perusing the Tube last evening I ended up watching several vidoes by accomplished woodworkers on 'how to sharpen a chisel'

What was apparent was most sharpened free hand ( not surprising) however, several of them sharpened the chisel only on the primary bevel i.e no micro or secondary bevel created.

Are there advantages/disadvantages to this. The main advantage I suspect is not having to regrind as the primary as it will remain constant.

Anything else I am missing? and does anyone else sharpen this way?

David


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## YorkshireMartin (3 Nov 2015)

I only have a primary bevel on mine, but I'm very new to this so I can't give a particular reason. It's just how they came and I sharpened them at their original bevel angle of 25deg.

They are extremely sharp, so I've not felt the need to explore a secondary bevel or micro bevel yet.


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## DTR (3 Nov 2015)

A coarse abrasive removes material quickly but doesn't leave a good edge.
A fine abrasive leaves a good edge but removes material slowly.
Using a small secondary bevel is the best of both worlds. Because it is a small area, the secondary bevel can be honed quickly with a fine abrasive. Trying to hone the entire bevel with the fine abrasive would take far longer* (and is also a bit of a waste, as the the finish on the area behind the bevel is irrelevant).

I can't see much advantage to using a single bevel, unless it is Jacob's rounded bevel where only the tip needs to be honed. But then, that's just the same theory as a secondary bevel, just without a clear boundary between the two bevels.

* of course, if the entire bevel is only a small bevel anyway, say on a 1/4" chisel, then you don't waste any time by honing the entire bevel.


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## matthewwh (3 Nov 2015)

Hi David,

Two different techniques, with plusses and minuses for each.

Freehanding on diamond or oilstones you work the full bevel and the natural curvature of your stroke produces a slightly steeper angle at the edge. Ideal for situations where you travel to the job, less stuff to lose / find etc. If possible always try to have the stone at the same height and distance from your body, .

Guided honing on waterstones or films, you isolate very small surfaces and polish them very precisely with a small number of deliberate strokes. Ideal for workshop based situations, finer work and more challenging timbers, where very sharp edges are sometimes required.

The problems and frustrations usually arise when people try to mix the materials and methods inappropriately.


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## bugbear (3 Nov 2015)

DTR":1jxkekwy said:


> I can't see much advantage to using a single bevel, unless it is Jacob's rounded bevel where only the tip needs to be honed. But then, that's just the same theory as a secondary bevel, just without a clear boundary between the two bevels.



No. As I understand it, Jacob works the whole of his rounded bevel, not just the tip. It really is a single bevel (or infinite  )

BugBear


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## DTR (3 Nov 2015)

bugbear":2ww6gq25 said:


> DTR":2ww6gq25 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't see much advantage to using a single bevel, unless it is Jacob's rounded bevel where only the tip needs to be honed. But then, that's just the same theory as a secondary bevel, just without a clear boundary between the two bevels.
> ...



Ok, I'll duck out now before this turns into one of "those" threads :shock:


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## matthewwh (3 Nov 2015)

Pass the popcorn Dave!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (3 Nov 2015)

Bluekingfisher":2t6otard said:


> while perusing the Tube last evening I ended up watching several vidoes by accomplished woodworkers on 'how to sharpen a chisel'
> 
> What was apparent was most sharpened free hand ( not surprising) however, several of them sharpened the chisel only on the primary bevel i.e no micro or secondary bevel created.
> 
> ...



Hi David

A sharpening question?! You are a naughty boy! Now Charles will disagree with me, and Jacob will disagree with everyone ... :lol: 

I grind a full hollow - right to the edge of the blade. Then I freehand hone on the hollow, using it as a jig. 

This method is not advisable for many and only works under certain conditions. It is risky, because without the right gear you will burn the edge of the blade, or wear away the steel more quickly. On the other hand, _if_ you can grind the hollow to the edge without heating the steel, _and_ the hollow is smooth(ish) and leaves behind a straight (unrough) edge, _then_ you can be onto a really fast sharpening system.

There are only two ways to grind like this: either use a Tormek wet grinder (220 grit) or a CBN wheel on a dry grinder (mine is 180 grit). These grinders are so controllable that you can work to the edge and stop just as you begin to feel the merest wire edge - which actually uses the same mount of steel as honing. But the real benefit comes from the ease of honing after this.

The advantage of this type of grinding is that you do very little grinding thereafter. The resulting microbevel from honing starts off so small that it takes a long time to be large enough to grind again. So lots of money spent on a system that gets relatively little use! But you did not ask about cost.

System here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... SetUp.html







Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Corneel (3 Nov 2015)

An advantage of a flat primary and honing on the same angle is that it looks nice. On Japanese tools that is a factor of some importance.


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## Bluekingfisher (3 Nov 2015)

Thanks everyone for their response, very useful as always.

I know sharpening is a contentious subject although I promise I was not intending to provoke

I have been experiencing fantastic results with diamond plates achieving a consistent edge enough to shave my arm. However, I was honing the edge on a Veritas MKII guide, which despite being accurate and consistent seemed to be taking a fair amount of metal off each time I honed. So, Derek your timely input has been invaluable at this point. I recently invested in Tormek T7. I have been using it to create the primary (using the 220 grit only) Then trying my hand at free hand honing of the micro bevel purely 1. To experience how to free hand hone consistently and 2. To reduce the extra little time fiddling with the MKII. I have been acheiving decent results, though perhaps not so keen an edge when using the guide, practice makes perfect I am hoping.

I have a question regards your technique, do you create the edge by simply placing thehollowed bevel on the sharpening plate/stone and use the top and bottom of the bevel as the 'guide' to create the edge or do you lift the bevel slightly so only the leading edge contacts the stone?

I'll check out your link for further investigation.

Thanks again all.

David


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## JonnyW (3 Nov 2015)

I remember seeing either the same videos or similar David, when I was researching sharpening methods. I was still trying to get my head around grinding the primary, then using my MKII to hone the micro bevel. I thought at one point that I was to hone the primary.

I have noticed the MKII does take a fair bit of steel off when set to micro bevel.

I too hollow grind on my Record WG250 - a Tormek rip off basically, but really good machine. I may try Derek's idea as I sounds obvious and you can see from his photos that it works (thanks Derek).

Jonny


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (3 Nov 2015)

> I have a question regards your technique, do you create the edge by simply placing thehollowed bevel on the sharpening plate/stone and use the top and bottom of the bevel as the 'guide' to create the edge or do you lift the bevel slightly so only the leading edge contacts the stone?



Hi David

Depending on the width of the blade, I will either move the blade sideways, or pull it back towards myself, sometimes both.

What is common to both is that the hollow is placed flat on the medium, so that both sides of the hollow are touching the medium. You can tell when it is flat when the chisel can be held to the medium by a finger pressing down behind the bevel.

Narrow chisels are not stable, and so place the flat down and pull the bevel back straight back towards yourself.

Wide blades may be done the same way, alternatively move them in a side-to-side motion. This is particularly stable with wider blades.

This is side sharpening ...






I avoid back-and-forth movements as they encourage rocking.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Bluekingfisher (3 Nov 2015)

Much appreciated Derek, noted & fully understood you addressed the issue regards narrow blades too. I'll try out the theory this evening if I get home from work early enough.

Good luck with yours too Jonny.

David


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## Paddy Roxburgh (3 Nov 2015)

I sharpen most of my tools freehand with a single bevel. I aim for flat but probably they are slightly rounded ala Jacob and Paul Sellers. People often say that a micro bevel is quicker but I don't find it takes long to sharpen with a single bevel. I used to use a honing guide and a secondary bevel and still do for the high angle iron in my block plane and the 35 degree bevel on my mortice chisels, to be honest I find that it is slower than freehand and that's not counting the time spent looking for the guide and setting it. 
Paddy


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## David C (4 Nov 2015)

Now I am planning to put some clips on you tube to show how slow honing guides are !

Looking for guide 5 seconds.

Setting guide maybe 10 to 15 seconds.

David Charlesworth


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## Corneel (4 Nov 2015)

Please add the video where you sharpen a gouge in the jig too.


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## David C (4 Nov 2015)

Don't use gouges much. Generally in cannel.

Many people make fancy ones for woodturning gouges though, like Tormek.

David


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## bugbear (4 Nov 2015)

Corneel":1t17g26x said:


> Please add the video where you sharpen a gouge in the jig too.



If I'm planing a flat board I use a big, flat soled plane.

If I were making a long moulding, I'd use a moulding plane.

If I'm working a curved edge I use a spokeshave.

If I were making a violin scroll I'd carve it.

But it would be dumb to carve a large flat surface, but I have the skills and tools to do it.

Today's phrase is "task appropriate technique"  

BugBear


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## Corneel (4 Nov 2015)

We had the same discussion some time ago when I came up with a long list of tools that didn't fit a jig. Gouges and moulding plane irons of course. But also the drawknife, the axe and broadaxe, mortise chisel, deey cambered scrubplane iron, knife, spokeshave, routerplane etc. In the meantime there have been some tremendous developments in the field of sharpening jigs. We have the drawsharp at something like 80 euro. LV came with the narrow chisel jaws for their MK2. LN of course with the new jig, forgot the price, plus separate jaws at an additional price. IF I remember correctly they even have mortise chisel jaws that are too small for pig stickers ( but oh well, just throw them oldfashioned things in the bin). When you want to sharpen your LN mortise chisel you unscrew the standard jaws and replace them with the mortise ones, recalculate the projection ratio and of you go. After first flattening your stones of course. And oiling the small wheel. Oh, and now we need a Tormek too. With all the jigs of course. 

In the meantime nothing happened on the freehand front. It's still the same old routine. When the chisel is dull, turn around to the stones, plop the edge ontk them and move it back and forth. Strop a bit and return to work. Couldn't they think up something more exiting?


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## Beau (4 Nov 2015)

DTR":1kymvyzv said:


> A coarse abrasive removes material quickly but doesn't leave a good edge.
> A fine abrasive leaves a good edge but removes material slowly.
> Using a small secondary bevel is the best of both worlds. Because it is a small area, the secondary bevel can be honed quickly with a fine abrasive. Trying to hone the entire bevel with the fine abrasive would take far longer* (and is also a bit of a waste, as the the finish on the area behind the bevel is irrelevant).
> 
> ...




This =D>


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## D_W (4 Nov 2015)

David C":3ryjrwhl said:


> Don't use gouges much. Generally in cannel.
> 
> Many people make fancy ones for woodturning gouges though, like Tormek.
> 
> David



I had that tormek jig at one point. It is slow, tedious and generally too coarse working for really sharpening carving tools. It takes seconds on each grit to do them freehand, or following an old text just sharpening on a single washita stone and if needed, touching up the very edge with a burnisher or "a strop with emery" as the book suggests. 

People who refuse to sharpen freehand are just making things infinitely harder and more onerous for themselves, and at the same time, limiting what they can sharpen to what they can buy for. if they sharpen freehand, within months, they can quickly figure out how to sharpen anything. 

of course, that requires someone to buy a reasonable and more practical sharpening stone for gouges than soft waterstones, which some people are averse to because they "need fast cutting sharpening stones", as they have trouble separating honing from grinding.


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## Jacob (4 Nov 2015)

Corneel":28xiw0up said:


> We had the same discussion some time ago when I came up with a long list of tools that didn't fit a jig. Gouges and moulding plane irons of course. But also the drawknife, the axe and broadaxe, mortise chisel, deey cambered scrubplane iron, knife, spokeshave, routerplane etc. In the meantime there have been some tremendous developments in the field of sharpening jigs. We have the drawsharp at something like 80 euro. LV came with the narrow chisel jaws for their MK2. LN of course with the new jig, forgot the price, plus separate jaws at an additional price. IF I remember correctly they even have mortise chisel jaws that are too small for pig stickers ( but oh well, just throw them oldfashioned things in the bin). When you want to sharpen your LN mortise chisel you unscrew the standard jaws and replace them with the mortise ones, recalculate the projection ratio and of you go. After first flattening your stones of course. And oiling the small wheel. Oh, and now we need a Tormek too. With all the jigs of course. .......


Don't forget the 12 year old single malt Honerite 1, matured in old sherry barrels to impart the colour and bouquet. Only £65 a litre.


Corneel":28xiw0up said:


> ....
> In the meantime nothing happened on the freehand front. It's still the same old routine. When the chisel is dull, turn around to the stones, plop the edge ontk them and move it back and forth. Strop a bit and return to work. Couldn't they think up something more exciting?


I tend to look out of the window when I'm sharpening. Hope that helps.


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## David C (4 Nov 2015)

Do people who don't use guides specialize in sarcasm?

Seems like it.

Some tools fit, some don't.

David


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## David C (4 Nov 2015)

Do they also try to mislead?

Mortice chisels fit, spokeshave blades fit with the same simple piece of wood that many hand sharpeners use.

Router plane blades can also be done with a bit of wood and some wit. (spelling?)

Scrub plane blades work fine and some knives.

David C


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## Jacob (4 Nov 2015)

David C":2l4ba0ih said:


> ....
> Scrub plane blades work fine and some knives.
> 
> David C


Scrub planes (steeply cambered blade) are one of the easiest things to sharpen freehand but a major challenge to jiggers. Freehand it's a bit like spooning the cream off a bowl of trifle or something - a scoop and twist as you go. Have a go Dave - I know you can do it. Practice on a trifle?


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## David C (4 Nov 2015)

So do I. (know it)

I have used both methods, but prefer one.

David


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## Paddy Roxburgh (4 Nov 2015)

David, I wish I was organised enough to find anything in 5 seconds, particularly the thing I just had. 
Corneel, mortice chisels fit just fine in my honing guide, including pigstickers, indeed they are one of the few tools I use them for as I hone them at 35 degrees. 
Whenever these arguments happen here I feel like I'm just not committed enough to one camp or the other. Basically I find high angles easier with the guide and 30 degrees or lower easier freehand. I'll never be a true craftsman until I decide which side I'm on in the sharpening war.
I hope these fence posts were well hammered in to the ground as I'm gonna stay sitting on it


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## woodbrains (4 Nov 2015)

Jacob":1dcght8m said:


> David C":1dcght8m said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...




Hello,

Funny this, a few years ago there was a thread about scrub planes, and Jacob did not know what they were for! When he was put straight about their use, he began to repeat the correct usage as if he'd invented the damn things and when queried as to why he was doing so, replied. "I changed my mind"

How is he now, does one suppose, suddenly giving 'expert' guidance on the subject and correcting everyone on their techniques! Yes, definitely misleading information.

Mike.


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## D_W (4 Nov 2015)

Regardless, he's correct. They're sharpened nearly the same motion as you'd use on a gouge, and quickly. It's foolish to do them any way other than freehand. 

Of course, he may not have known what a scrub plane was because they are generally a fashion tool sold by premium makers these days with appeal to a group of people who never dimension wood by hand, and wouldn't really have any use for them. 

A rank set jack does the job as quickly and leaves a little bit flatter troughs. (of course, it's sharpened in a similar side to side or diagonal way in a matter of seconds). 

Have you ever seen a vintage stanley scrub plane with a really short iron? I haven't. 

If the premium makers made a plane with an iron shaped like an upside down Christmas tree and told beginners that it was the deepest digging plane ever, they could sell tons of them. 

I have done quite a bit of rough to finished work on woods with planes only and I haven't used a scrub plane in years. When I did use them on ugly wood that had some twist and unruly grain, they created a huge mess, and their action (friction) was worse than a wooden plane with a rank set blade. 

I'll bet they'll continue to be bought (new and used) and sold in a condition that suggests little use, while inexpensive jack planes will continue to be described as a "poor substitute for a scrub because the iron isn't as heavy".


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## Woody2Shoes (4 Nov 2015)

I don't think anyone's mentioned the option of bringing the "stone" to the "edge" - rather that vice versa - I use diamond paddles, or wet/dry paper on dowels/profiles for otherwise difficult shaped/sized edges. Cheers W2S

PS I recently bought a Veritas scrub plane and I really like it - allows me to straighten/clean up riven timbers (split with wedges) with less waste before either putting them through the jointer/planer or bandsaw and/or using a jack plane on them. I could have doctored an old Stanley No.4 as Paul Sellers shows us how to do, but I chose to spend a bit of extra cash and haven't regretted it yet.


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## bugbear (4 Nov 2015)

Woody2Shoes":253k5i84 said:


> I don't think anyone's mentioned the option of bringing the "stone" to the "edge" - rather that vice versa - I use diamond paddles, or wet/dry paper on dowels/profiles for otherwise difficult shaped/sized edges. Cheers W2S



Funny you should say that - the "old way" (Moxon 1703) is indeed to bring the stone to the edge, for those that know a little about the history of the craft.

I guess Jacob's recommending a new fangled way. Must be a fashion thing.

:lol: :lol: :lol: 
:lol: :lol: :lol: 
:lol: :lol: :lol: 

BugBear

PS NB etc. My website shows a scrub blade being rather sharpened with a jig, easily, quickly and (if I say myself) rather well.


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## D_W (4 Nov 2015)

Woody2Shoes":193baj6z said:


> I don't think anyone's mentioned the option of bringing the "stone" to the "edge" - rather that vice versa - I use diamond paddles, or wet/dry paper on dowels/profiles for otherwise difficult shaped/sized edges. Cheers W2S
> 
> PS I recently bought a Veritas scrub plane and I really like it - allows me to straighten/clean up riven timbers (split with wedges) with less waste before either putting them through the jointer/planer or bandsaw and/or using a jack plane on them. I could have doctored an old Stanley No.4 as Paul Sellers shows us how to do, but I chose to spend a bit of extra cash and haven't regretted it yet.



It's the no 5 set as a jack, or even better, an old wooden jack that you want for that work. I could never understand the virtue in setting up a 4 for that. It's too short.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Nov 2015)

woodbrains":kgqjon75 said:


> Jacob":kgqjon75 said:
> 
> 
> > David C":kgqjon75 said:
> ...



That is funny! :lol: 

Jacob, I am curious, do you use machines to dimension the majority of your boards? If so, do you use a scrub or jack plane, and why? 

David (DW), a question for you too (in case you feel left out  ): I know you have purchased and used enough stones (water, oil, etc) to recreate the Taj Mahal ... possibly with a little left over to build a shed at the rear for your non-machines. I am curious to know, when you were emptying all the quarries, whether you listened to the advice of others (except your wife - I know you were hiding these wares from her by pretending they were for a boundary wall), who told you that your search was fruitless and that you should instead just concentrate on one stone .. or return to scary sharp? 

It strikes me that there is no woodworking forum quite like a handtool forum, and no thread like a sharpening topic to bring out the extreme views in everyone. What would be interesting to do is revisit this thread in 5 years and see what is the same or different. (How any sharpening systems have you had in the past 5 years? I have had at least two).

Regards from Perth

Derek 
(who believes there is a place for a honing guide and has nearly every one under the sun - not as many as DW has stones  - but mainly hones freehand).


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## DennisCA (5 Nov 2015)

Small belt sanders are starting to look good as a method for removing a lot of material for a primary bevel. But also for finer grinding and honing. I see the method is realized commercially in the form of a sorby pro edge. How fine a finish can you get on such a machine, does it need any honing on a water or oil stone afterwards, or perhaps just a strop?

Also does it matter if you grind and hone the bevel sideways rather back and forth as is the norm? There was some old guy from america who talked with a thick accent who did it sideways I remember.

That seems to me could work well on a small belt grinder if you can't afford a sorby which uses a 2" wide belt, then yo wouldn't be limited by a narrow belt and could grind very wide irons, and it would be easy to get the right angle, just draw some lines on the table for future reference.


For reference I have two stones, one diamond plate that is just labeled "fine" and one cheap 3 euro aluminum oxide thingy from the hardware store. I also have a jig, it's mainly used to get a straight and even primary bevel.


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## RogerP (5 Nov 2015)

DennisCA":ct2e3men said:


> Small belt sanders are starting to look good as a method for removing a lot of material for a primary bevel. But also for finer grinding and honing. I see the method is realized commercially in the form of a sorby pro edge. How fine a finish can you get on such a machine, does it need any honing on a water or oil stone afterwards, or perhaps just a strop?
> 
> Also does it matter if you grind and hone the bevel sideways rather back and forth as is the norm? There was some old guy from america who talked with a thick accent who did it sideways I remember. ...................


For some years I've used a 100mm x 915mm bench belt/disk sander with Zirconia sanding belt for metal.
http://www.abtec4abrasives.com/100mm-x-915mm-zirconia-sanding-belt-price-per-3-belts-532-p.asp
120 grit removes metal quite fast enough and gives a very nice almost polished finish.





The belt can be used horizontally or vertically (as photo)


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

woodbrains":3h6hkfg8 said:


> Jacob":3h6hkfg8 said:
> 
> 
> > David C":3h6hkfg8 said:
> ...


This is true. I wasn't so interested in trad tools and a "scrub" plane was virtually unknown in the UK, though Record had a go at making one which is a very rare collectors piece. Recently reintroduced from the wild by our old retro tool friends. Since then they have been over promoted as being an essential first plane in the process.
Interestingly I found an original user made example in a box of old tools and in the meantime bought an Ulmia.


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> [.....
> 
> Jacob, I am curious, do you use machines to dimension the majority of your boards? If so, do you use a scrub or jack plane, and why? ......


I use a machine for work. Before I had one I did a lot of work by hand with my one plane a Record 5 1/2, for everything. I've always been using them as necessary, but I got more interested in hand tools a lot later.


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

DennisCA":1ayyjhw1 said:


> Small belt sanders are starting to look good as a method for removing a lot of material for a primary bevel. But also for finer grinding and honing. I see the method is realized commercially in the form of a sorby pro edge. How fine a finish can you get on such a machine, does it need any honing on a water or oil stone afterwards, or perhaps just a strop?.....


I use the Pro edge for coarse grinding but finish by hand on an oil stone. There are fine belts available for honing and polishing but more trouble than they are worth IMHO


DennisCA":1ayyjhw1 said:


> ......
> That seems to me could work well on a small belt grinder if you can't afford a sorby which uses a 2" wide belt, then yo wouldn't be limited by a narrow belt and could grind very wide irons, and it would be easy to get the right angle, just draw some lines on the table for future reference.......


Yes definitely - it works really well. I've done it a lot and you can do it easily freehand without any special kit. The proedge is overkill really


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

Woody2Shoes":2npipfiu said:


> .....
> PS I recently bought a Veritas scrub plane and I really like it - allows me to straighten/clean up riven timbers (split with wedges) with less waste before either putting them through the jointer/planer or bandsaw and/or using a jack plane on them. I could have doctored an old Stanley No.4 as Paul Sellers shows us how to do, but I chose to spend a bit of extra cash and haven't regretted it yet.


That's the sort of job for a scrub, though a lot easier with the very light Ulmia or any similar woody. The steel ones never caught on in a big way as most people just used an old plane for rough work - or an axe even. Adze would have been the even more trad way.
I found the scrub really good for cleaning up old reclaimed timber - the deep cut is mostly into clean wood underneath and avoids most of the grit and stuff on the surface


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Nov 2015)

Dennis and Roger raise the topic of small belt sanders. This open us to an interesting question.

Belt sanders can do an excellent job of preparing a primary bevel. _FWW_ mag posted an jig I built 10 years ago (although I have not used it much over the past several years) ...






http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... erMkI.html

One now has three choices: (1) freehand on the resulting flat primary bevel, which is very inefficient (unless you are honing a laminated blade) (2) add a secondary bevel with a guide, or (3) add a secondary bevel freehand.

Now the question is, _which produces the *better *edge - one freehanded or one via a honing guide?_

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Dennis and Roger raise the topic of small belt sanders. This open us to an interesting question.
> 
> Belt sanders can do an excellent job of preparing a primary bevel. _FWW_ mag posted an jig I built 10 years ago (although I have not used it much over the past several years) ...
> 
> ...


The best way to use a belt sander is to use it freehand to grind and then finish on an oil stone. No jigs needed in either case.
You've gone to an enormous amount of trouble there Derek - I can't quite see the point. What is stopping you just _holding_ the chisel at that angle, in one hand even?


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## RogerP (5 Nov 2015)

Jacob":x7jzxl1p said:


> You've gone to an enormous amount of trouble there Derek - I can't quite see the point. What is stopping you just _holding_ the chisel at that angle, in one hand even?


I did make a guide but it was soon discarded and from then I've just held the iron or chisel freehand.


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## DTR (5 Nov 2015)

David C":fvp761ze said:


> Do people who don't use guides specialize in sarcasm?
> 
> Seems like it.





David C":fvp761ze said:


> Do they also try to mislead?



Rather unfair to tar us all with the same brush :roll:


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Nov 2015)

"You've gone to an enormous amount of trouble there Derek - I can't quite see the point." - Jacob

I'm sure it doesn't matter jot to Derek whether you do or don't - he obviously did.


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## DennisCA (5 Nov 2015)

What about speeds on these grinders? I am halfway done building my strip sander (I enjoy building tools when possible) and using an induction motor I have, I will get 2850rpm with direct drive.

I read the sorby pro edge is a slow system (900rpm or such) so I'm thinking of adding step pulleys to change speeds and get more versatility out of this little machine. Already worked out the proper sizes to get speeds of 890-1600-2850.

It's a bit confusing to know what works best, when it comes to the big 2x72" belt grinders all the people using them for knife making and general metalwork, seem to say more speed is better for metalworking. But the sorby pro edge is a slow grinder in contrast. I assume grinding and sharpening aren't equivalent processes and require different speeds.


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## David C (5 Nov 2015)

Sorry Dave. (DTR)

Very true. Just a vocal few....

David


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## Corneel (5 Nov 2015)

Irony, not sarcasm.


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

Are all jig users irritable and dogmatic?


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## iNewbie (5 Nov 2015)

Grinding irony, here....


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

bugbear":19ue53z9 said:


> DTR":19ue53z9 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't see much advantage to using a single bevel, unless it is Jacob's rounded bevel where only the tip needs to be honed. But then, that's just the same theory as a secondary bevel, just without a clear boundary between the two bevels.
> ...


It is in fact an infinite series of micro bevels. More bevels than you can shake a stick at!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Nov 2015)

An infinity of microbevels.

Honing must be exhausting!  

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## D_W (5 Nov 2015)

This is starting to sound like calculus. What's the tangent line intersecting the microbevel at 1/3rd of the distance from the edge? 

Way too much to think about!!


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## David C (5 Nov 2015)

Inaccuracy and condescension,

What's not to get irritated about? ~;-)#

David


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## Corneel (5 Nov 2015)

Humour is rarely 100% accurate, other wise it wouldn't be funny.

But the message was clear: Design a jig and I'll find you a tool that doesn't fit.


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## D_W (5 Nov 2015)

Condescention. There's no inaccuracy in freehand sharpening done by someone with experience - especially if they grind the primary bevel. 

David, I learned to sharpen from your video. Eventually someone who has to get something done with more tools than straight chisels and planes will realize that it is a starting point, but not a long term sensible method unless the actual use of chisels and planes is minimal. 

It's just reality. At least sensible reality. You do it while you have to to get a decent result, but eventually you develop a skill and progress instead of being trapped in a cage of "I need to come up with another set of contraptions to sharpen a new tool". 

I'd be willing to bet that my freehand honed irons are within two degrees final bevel of each other. Maybe less. But why would anyone who has any woodworking sense care? I care (as most should) not about some prescriptive set of angles and stops, I care that the iron cuts well, has the clearance it needs and does not chip. I care about the same with the chisel. 

What am I going to do if I find that I want to hone something at a different angle? Rebuild a bunch of stops and measurements? Please. People who use stops aren't even getting a consistent angle with a guide unless every iron or chisel is the same thickness. 

Let's get real here at some point and stop suggesting that someone who has the skill to hone freehand is somehow "better off" or "more accurate" if they use a jig. It's rubbish. 

You know what a real prescription is for accuracy and quickness? Grind tools at a primary angle, lift the handle by an amount that you develop the feel to do - same every time - to hone, and when using something that works well with a shallow angle - like a paring chisel, hone right on the hollow. Done. No gadgets, no ridiculously priced "narrow chisel" holders or any other screwing around. Those things are good for beginners, but they take something that's easy for an experienced person to do and create a bunch of restrictions around it. Most things (like outcannel gouges and narrow chisels) are sharpened with an extremely simple motion, and setting up contraptions either keeps people from learning to use those tools in the first place, or it mentally makes them delay sharpening until they can no longer stand working with the tool.


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## MIGNAL (5 Nov 2015)

Did Jesus use a honing guide?


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## Racers (5 Nov 2015)

D_W we are all different and have different abilitys, some older people with physical problems need or want to use a jig others just like to use them, why try and stop them?
Lets let the jig users use them if they want to, not ridicule them, may be they will sharpen freehand one day or not, it's up to them.
Don't be a dictator, its just sharpening, as long as its sharp who cares how it got there.

Pete


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Nov 2015)

MIGNAL":3ti9j5ue said:


> Did Jesus use a honing guide?




Ask Jacob..............he was there! :lol:


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## D_W (5 Nov 2015)

Racers":1xdrlnjd said:


> D_W we are all different and have different abilitys, some older people with physical problems need or want to use a jig others just like to use them, why try and stop them?
> Lets let the jig users use them if they want to, not ridicule them, may be they will sharpen freehand one day or not, it's up to them.
> Don't be a dictator, its just sharpening, as long as its sharp who cares how it got there.
> 
> Pete



Ahh, but pete, you'll see what I wrote is that if you can't get the results you want freehand, then you're forced to use a guide. Those people using guides because they have hand problems or poor eyesight, that's just part of the game. 

What sets me off is the implication that there is some shortcoming in sharpness due to "lack of precision" if you're not using a guide. The vast majority of people won't fall into a category of folks who lack the physical agility or eyesight or craftsman's sense in general to sharpen very well by hand, especially if they set the primary bevel by machine (grinding a precise primary bevel by hand is a different issue entirely, honing is much easier). 

It's important not to search for the exception in every rule, it blocks progress. You use the exception only when you know it applies - in the cases you're discussing, it applies. But such people shouldn't point fingers and say goofy things like "there's a lack of precision". 

That kind of notion comes up when someone works with too many beginners and starts to apply shortcomings of beginners to everyone.


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## MIGNAL (5 Nov 2015)

Cheshirechappie":2trxmdc1 said:


> MIGNAL":2trxmdc1 said:
> 
> 
> > Did Jesus use a honing guide?
> ...



Actually it was rhetorical question. I was there too. Jesus became very angry when he saw some of them using guides, so incensed that he drove them out of the workshop.


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## Zeddedhed (5 Nov 2015)

Racers":2vd0mxwt said:


> D_W we are all different and have different abilitys, some older people with physical problems need or want to use a jig others just like to use them, why try and stop them?
> Lets let the jig users use them if they want to, not ridicule them, may be they will sharpen freehand one day or not, it's up to them.
> Don't be a dictator, its just sharpening, as long as its sharp who cares how it got there.
> 
> Pete



Well said. I use jigs (sometimes) and don't really care if anyone else thinks I shouldn't. What I do care about is that it becomes a bit nerve racking when you want to ask a jig related question. It's highly likely that if I asked whether people who use one could recommend for example the Veritas Camber Roller for the MkII I'd get no useful answers, just a load of evangelists (or utter pineapples) telling me to go freehand.

So I don't ask. Surely thats not the way this forum is meant to be?


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## D_W (5 Nov 2015)

Zeddedhed":20wh2gd2 said:


> Racers":20wh2gd2 said:
> 
> 
> > D_W we are all different and have different abilitys, some older people with physical problems need or want to use a jig others just like to use them, why try and stop them?
> ...



I think it's perfectly fine to ask a question and state that you'd like not to have responses to anything other than the question. If someone tells me that they only use a jig because they absolutely can't do freehand (or in some cases, i"ve had people tell me they have physical limitations ...or that they use a plane only to smooth stuff and they are primarily power tool - it'll never matter). 

But if someone says "I want to build furniture, and learn to carve, and use moulding planes...but I can't sharpen free hand". 

Uh, you might want to rethink that and stick with table saws and routers and such, because life will be difficult with the gadgetry.

Something like "I'm never going to sharpen enough to warrant the time savings of freehand" should keep the questioners at bay.

(and even I tried the cambered wheel veritas once a long while ago...perhaps when it first came out and I was still using some power tools and bought into the "accuracy of a guide" nonsense).


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

Zeddedhed":btaeerxy said:


> ... just a load of evangelists (or utter pineapples) telling me to go freehand.
> 
> So I don't ask. Surely thats not the way this forum is meant to be?


Unfortunately the solution to many jig problems is stop using the jig. 
It's as if someone asks how to cure a headache but doesn't like the simple obvious answer i.e. stop banging your head against the wall


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2015)

MIGNAL":1r2j9nd0 said:


> Did Jesus use a honing guide?


It'd be a miracle if you could use that as a jig, my boy:







I told him - should have been using a push stick:


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## mouppe (5 Nov 2015)

Zeddedhed":3ob18e40 said:


> Racers":3ob18e40 said:
> 
> 
> > D_W we are all different and have different abilitys, some older people with physical problems need or want to use a jig others just like to use them, why try and stop them?
> ...



Sadly, this is increasingly the case. The forum should be about asking questions, offering advice, posting photos of ideas and work, but it's recently become more about harassing and belittling people with different work methods. This happened on another forum I used to visit, and the result was that in a short space of time there was a massive drop-off in forum activity. What can you do? Not much. Typically after someone posts a question, there are a few genuinely helpful responses, then the bullies pile in with their "my way is the only way" posts, drive all the other posters away, until the discussion ends. Gradually the questions stop as people tire of the repeated arguments, leaving the forum poorer as a result.


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## Bluekingfisher (5 Nov 2015)

Well thanks for answering my initial question folks.

I conclude The answer is - D_W and Jacob are wholly right, everyone else is wrong.

Thanks gents, much appreciated.

David


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## iNewbie (5 Nov 2015)

Jacob":2loaxmlj said:


> Zeddedhed":2loaxmlj said:
> 
> 
> > ... just a load of evangelists (or utter pineapples) telling me to go freehand.
> ...



I don't see many (rare as hens teeth on here) threads about Jig issues/problems. I see plenty of tripe on how they shouldn't be using one - maybe the tripe-ers shouldn't bang their heads...


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## Zeddedhed (5 Nov 2015)

Jacob,
if I ask for help using a jig and your reply is to stop using it you're not being helpful. You're being arrogant in assuming that I haven't considered my options and chosen to use a jig for whatever reason. The reason is none of your business. If you don't have an answer that would help me using a jig then don't post. You have nothing of value to say.

Sometimes you do have something of value to say and this has been said before, but I think you believe that all of your opinions and utterances are of value. They're not. Sometimes they are just arrogant boll*cks.

So if you don't want to help people who have chosen not to go freehand I suggest you shut up and p|ss off.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (5 Nov 2015)

Jacob":28x1vivl said:


> MIGNAL":28x1vivl said:
> 
> 
> > Did Jesus use a honing guide?


It'd be a miracle if you could use that as a jig, my boy:







Of course there's always the possibility that if he had sharpened differently he might have stuck with the carpentry. Maybe that final bit of tearout on the Cedar of Lebanon drove him to take up the whole son of god thing


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