# Thewlis pincers - and a bit of Thewlis history.



## Cheshirechappie (26 Mar 2017)

During a spell of vintage tool acquisition a couple of years ago, a pair of pincers by Thewlis & Co came my way. 

I own two other pairs of pincers; both 6" pairs, one bought new in the 1980s, and one older, which I may have inherited. Neither pair are much to write home about. The inherited pair are rather lightweight, and stamped "British Made". The 1980s pair have plastic covered handles, and the jaws are ground such that they grip in the middle of the forging rather than at the outside edge; they are all but useless.

The Thewlis pair on the other hand are 8" long, and about twice as heavy. The jaws grip at the outside edge, and the handles have a nice curve to them that makes them quite comfortable in the hand, even when being used hard. One handle ends in a flattened split making a sort of tack-lifter, the other in a strange cone-like 'thing'. The finish is 'workmanlike' - not very polished, but no burrs or lumps where they'd hurt the hands, and the jaws meet nicely. I was using them not long ago whilst dismantling some old fence panels, and they worked very effectively.

From somewhere, I knew that Thewlis were a Warrington firm, but I knew nothing more about them, except that the name crops up from time to time on vintage tools - the solid old-type dividers being one example. Last night, I whiled away a couple of hours seeing what Google could unearth about them.

Well - not very much. Apparently, the firm was founded in 1813, and at some point (maybe from the start) was known as Thewlis and Griffith. 

There seems to be some info about a chap called Shaw Thewlis, born 1814 in Huddersfield, who became a significant figure in the public life of Warrington - he was Mayor in 1865-66, and there's a Thewlis Street near Bank Quay. In the 1881 census, Shaw Thewlis is stated as age 57 (I think that should be 67 - read on!), occupation "Alderman and Magistrate, File and Tool Manufacturer employing 65 men, 5 boys and 2 girls". A report from the Warrington Guardian about the sale of his sideboard tells that he died in 1885 in his early 70s, and in his will left a legacy of £500 for 'the aged poor of Warrington'. He was remembered as a very kind man, apparently.

A 'Useful Registered Design' of 1848 gives the firm's address as 'Phoenix Iron and Tool Works, Warrington, Cheshire' [sic - Warrington was in Lancashire at the time, and many people say it still is!] but frustratingly, no street name. The application was for a Churn, as in dairy equipment. I've also seen Ebay listings for railway carriage keys by the firm, too - so their product range was eclectic.

The trail then goes cold, until a Grace's Guide entry for Herbert Plumpton (including George Plumpton, Thewlis Griffith and Edelsten Ltd, and the Lancashire Tool Company), becoming incorporated into Sheffield Steel Products in 1920.

Thus - two questions. (Well - more than two, really!)

1) What is the cone thing for on pincer handles?

2) Can anybody offer any more information about Thewlis? They were clearly a long-established firm, of medium size, with a varied product range. They couldn't have been formed by Shaw Thewlis - maybe his father? When did the firm become defunt, or their trademark cease to be used? Who were Griffith and Edelsten?


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## Bod (26 Mar 2017)

Gas pliers?
Like this...http://www.spear-and-jackson.com/produc ... /gas-plier

Bod


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## Cheshirechappie (26 Mar 2017)

Bod":2spnbu22 said:


> Gas pliers?
> Like this...http://www.spear-and-jackson.com/produc ... /gas-plier
> 
> Bod



No - carpenter's pincers. A bit like these, only slightly older-looking. And by Thewlis, not Marples.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-Vinta ... SwJ7RYYYpu

The cone 'thing' on mine is much more cone-shaped than blob-shaped, about 1/2" diameter at it's broadest, and about 5/16" from 'flange' to 'tip'.


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## Bm101 (26 Mar 2017)

I always assumed the ball was a kind of general peening/punch feature. Nip off a nail head turn it round and tap the nail with a hammer type of thing. I'm probably wrong though. :|


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## Cheshirechappie (27 Mar 2017)

Bm101":xxhb8eps said:


> I always assumed the ball was a kind of general peening/punch feature. Nip off a nail head turn it round and tap the nail with a hammer type of thing. I'm probably wrong though. :|



Well, it's as good a theory as we've got at the moment! 

Viewing a few pictures of pincers on the internet (I live a full and exciting life, as you can no doubt tell), most examples seem to have plain-ended handles, with a fair few having one handle ending in a tack-lifter, and the other in a blob. My Thewlis pair have a tack-lifter on one and a sort of bell shape or cone on the end of the other.

So it seems that one can have pincer handles with a plain end, a knob on the end, or a bell on the end. :shock:


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## woodbrains (27 Mar 2017)

Hello,

And a cleavage on the other. :shock: 

Mike.


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## Cheshirechappie (27 Mar 2017)

=D>


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## woodbrains (27 Mar 2017)

Hello,

Does anyone know the difference between Tower pattern and Lancashire pattern pincers? I assume the Thewliss ones you have would be Lancashire? 

I thought it was differences in Shoulder design but am just guessing. Any type seem to have the ball and claw or plain ends, so it is not that. Kingshott shows two patterns in his book, but the photos are not referenced distinctly. It alludes to Tower having rounded shoulders and Lancashire having pointed or winged shoulders. However an internet search does not clarify this, though trends towards it verifying what I assume kingshott shows. However, I found a reference in Casells which show Lancashire pattern having no shoulders at all, but closer to the rounded shoulders than the winged ones! Am i barking up the wrong tree and there is something else that differentiated the patterns? Should I get out more? 

CC what are the Thewliss ones like, and would they be an exemplar example of Lancashire pattern? The Marples ones you reference _seem_ to be Tower pattern, _if _it has anything to do with the shoulders.

Mike.


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## Harbo (27 Mar 2017)

I've got several pairs of old pincers and have always wondered what the round ball at the end was for. Unless it was a safety feature.
Anybody know?

Rod


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## kwigly (27 Mar 2017)

Tower pincers with claw and ball ends, and Lancashire pincers (with claw and cone ends), as shown in the S Tyzack & Son catalogue No 640 (c1938)
I've no idea of the manufacturer's purpose of the ball or cone, but I've assumed Owner's choice; and the ball is for bonking, and the cone is for poking.


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## woodbrains (27 Mar 2017)

Hello,

OK, that seems clear, it just gets confusing when more modern pincers have plain ends an still get called tower pattern. 

The example in the lower picture has winged shoulders. The terminal is not a sharp cone nor is as fully round as the ball type. Which pattern would we say that is. The examples in Kingshott had indistinct terminals too, which is why I thought the pattern had to do with the shoulders. I think this catalogue illustration makes things clearer, though not necessarily what the shapes are for.

Mike.


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## sunnybob (27 Mar 2017)

Mine are made by WILKINSON G, with a circle underneath and a letter inside I havent deciphered yet.





The round end serves the same purpose as a ball ended handlebar lever.
When levering a nail out with the claw end, your hand is fully on the other lever and the ball is a safety stop to prevent your hand slipping off..


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## sunnybob (27 Mar 2017)

Just had a zoom look at mine. its WILKINSONS, and there a T in the circle.


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## Rorschach (27 Mar 2017)

If the ball was to stop your hand slipping off, why are there models without balls or with cones instead? There must be a purpose to the ball/cone since there is a purpose to the claw.


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## sunnybob (27 Mar 2017)

Theres good pincers, and theres cheap pincers.

My daddy told me that when I was still in primary school. Nobody has ever disproved him.


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## Cheshirechappie (27 Mar 2017)

I've been doing a bit more rummaging.

R.A.Salaman in his 'Dictionary of Woodworking Tools' lists four types of pincer; Tower pincers (Sunnybob's are a classic example), Shouldered or French pattern pincers (the square shoulders or wings shown as the lower pair in Kwigley's catalogue extract), Lancashire pattern, and Boxed pincers - which are rather like a 'refined' Lancashire pattern with plain handle ends, very rounded jaws and a box joint like best quality pliers have.

My Thewlis pincers are classic Lancashire pattern.

An old catalogue from RCF Tools (summer 1976) lists 'Carpenter's Ball and Claw Pincers' in three sizes (6", 7" and 8") by two different makers (Elliott Lucas and Taurus). The illustration is of Tower pattern, and the description states, "Designed for removing nails with a 'rolling' action. Incorporates tough gripping jaws, a well formed claw for tack lifting and ball ends for swaging."

So there we have it - the ball end is for swaging. Now, I can't think of a woodworking operation or task that involves swaging, so maybe it's for another trade? One thing I associate swaging with (apart from blacksmithing) is working the end of a piece of pipe or tube to increase or reduce its diameter, perhaps to allow one piece of pipe to slip into another; so, plumbing, perhaps, in the old days of lead pipes; or gas-fitting in the days of gas lighting? Mind you, I'm not quite sure exactly how you'd accomplish that with the ball-end of a pincer handle. Any gas fitters or plumbers present?

-------

I've also discovered that Thewlis also made handcuffs; http://handcuffs.org/g/index.php?mode=7 - scroll about three-quarters of the way down. Apparently, there's an internet forum solely devoted to handcuffs - http://handcuffs.org/ :shock: 

--------

So now we've had a knob on the end, a bell on the end, cleavage, ball ends, bonking, poking and handcuffs. You'll never look at a pair of pincers in quite the same way again, will you! :lol:


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## woodbrains (27 Mar 2017)

Hello,

Cobblers!

I mean old style shoe cobblers used pincers an awful lot more than woodworkers, I would suggest, so might have had a large influence on their design. Could swaging be associated with leather work in shoes?

Mike.


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## Rorschach (27 Mar 2017)

woodbrains":3n532x6m said:


> Hello,
> 
> Cobblers!
> 
> ...



Could be for working on eyelets.


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## sunnybob (28 Mar 2017)

Certainly not for lead piping. I worked lead piping as an apprentice and never saw any small enough to open up bigger using that ball end.
The end on mine is spherical, and barely 10 mm in diameter. Completely useless as a swaging tool.

I'm still with it being a ball ended lever for nail removal.


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Mar 2017)

sunnybob":1bn6ghs1 said:


> Certainly not for lead piping. I worked lead piping as an apprentice and never saw any small enough to open up bigger using that ball end.
> The end on mine is spherical, and barely 10 mm in diameter. Completely useless as a swaging tool.
> 
> I'm still with it being a ball ended lever for nail removal.



Right - in that case, we can cross off plumbing as a possible use, though we've still got cobblers to eliminate....

One thing that does occur is that it might just be a decoration, a visual balance to the tack-lifter on the other handle. Rather like the nib at the toe-end of saws (OK - I know that one's a bit controversial - no thread diversions about it, please!) or the rings turned on some chisel handles. Thus, you have a cleavage on the one hand, and a ball on the other - and you thought the Victorians were so straight-laced, didn't you!


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## ED65 (28 Mar 2017)

Cheshirechappie":2la5rv7j said:


> One thing that does occur is that it might just be a decoration...


Bingo. That's what I've always taken it to be. Wouldn't be the first feather that survived for a long while merely because of tradition or convention!



Cheshirechappie":2la5rv7j said:


> ...no thread diversions about [the saw nib] please!


Oh can we, pleeeease?


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## bourbon (28 Mar 2017)

If you look closely
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTop ... penter.jpg


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Mar 2017)

ED65":xtlxrzm7 said:


> Cheshirechappie":xtlxrzm7 said:
> 
> 
> > ...no thread diversions about [the saw nib] please!
> ...



No. NO!
.
.
.
.
.
.
Oh, all right then - but only if you promise to start a new thread about it.....


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Mar 2017)

bourbon":2761pu6c said:


> If you look closely
> http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTop ... penter.jpg



Erm - not quite sure what to make of this. There's a pair of pincers on the wall rack - about third tool from the right - but not enough detail to tell anything else about them.

Am I missing something?


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## AndyT (28 Mar 2017)

Picking up on the thought of gas piping, I thought at first that sounded a likely place for swaging, on lead pipes which were quite slim, much smaller than lead water pipes. Unsurprisingly, books are often aimed at amateurs, and amateur gas fitters don't survive long enough to explain their methods. Even "Every Man His Own Mechanic" warns that it's really a job for the professionals. It does give a brief description of enlarging one end of a pipe so you could fit another end into it, but says that this was done with boxwood cones (just like water pipe). It doesn't suggest that the amateur could swage the end with the knob or cone on the end of his pliers. 

I've not found any written description of a purpose for the knob, or the cone, which looks harder to make. I'm leaning towards the suggestion that it was just traditional. 

I thought this picture was interesting. It's from a 1950s catalogue issued by the Hardware Trades Journal. It's a useful one, as it doesn't just list one vendor's products. It's aimed at people running hardware shops, explaining what tools exist, so they could decide what to stock for their customers. 
It seems to be saying that there were entrenched ideas of what pincers ought to look like, varying by country:







I expect someone will be wondering how old pincers are. The answer seems to be at least as old as the Romans, as shown in Henry Mercer's book on "Ancient Carpenters' Tools" available here https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b4494310 which has this picture. Exhibit (C) seems to have a cone on the end of one handle! (Rather a long time before gas lighting.)


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Mar 2017)

Hmm. Maybe the cone is helpful in repairing one's armour if you're a legionary. Not sure why Thewlis were still making that design 1800 years later - maybe they didn't know either!


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## sunnybob (28 Mar 2017)

As said, i was trained to make joints in lead piping back in the early 60's. We used boxwood cones (looked just like childrens spinning tops) and hammers to expand the pipe to allow joints to be soldered.
the smallest lead pipe I saw used was a 1/2" bore.
Early gas light piping was smaller, but i have never seen it small enough to need a 10 mm swager.


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## bourbon (29 Mar 2017)

Cheshirechappie":291n40h2 said:


> bourbon":291n40h2 said:
> 
> 
> > If you look closely
> ...


 no, your not missing anything. I just posted it to show that pincers are an early invention


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## Cheshirechappie (30 Mar 2017)

bourbon":2ea8433d said:


> Cheshirechappie":2ea8433d said:
> 
> 
> > bourbon":2ea8433d said:
> ...



Ah! I see - fair point, reinforced by Andy's post with the Roman pincers. I've no idea when pincers were invented, but my guess would be very shortly after the invention of nails. I know the Romans used nails in vast quantities, but as far as I can tell, the Egyptians didn't, so maybe the nail is a Greek or Assyrian idea?

Edit to add - Ooops, wrong! Apparently, the Egyptians were using bronze nails as long ago as 3,400BC. I don't think Thewlis were making pincers then, though!


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Apr 2017)

An update just to add a small piece of information I found online in a trade catalogue for Warrington dated 1871. The address for Thewlis and Griffith is Phoenix Works, 55 Mersey Street, Warrington. Shaw Thewlis' home address was given as Bank Quay (I think his residence was on what is now Old Liverpool Road). I do know that later, he moved to Latchford House on Knutsford Road, which even today is quite 'leafy'.

They were still there in 1895. So far, I haven't found any later directories online.

Mersey Street is very much part of old Warrington, so from this finding, I don't think the works was large. It probably had a street frontage about the length of not much more than 40 feet or so, but stretched back a good bit further. If it followed the pattern of other Lancashire tool, clock and watch premises, it may have been a two-storey affair, with blacksmiths on the ground floor, and finishing trades on the first.


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## AndyT (8 Apr 2017)

I don't know if it was still the case in the late Victorian period, but in the early 19th century when the likes of Peter Stubs were doing rather well in the Lancashire tool trade, there was a strong pattern of tools being made by small scale outworkers, known as "country hands." Tools were made in cottage workshops then gathered in to a named "manufacturer" who inspected them, marked them with his brand and sold them.

If Thewlis was using this system, their works could be far smaller than would have been needed for all the tools sold with their name on.

With Stubs, whose fame rested on files, only saw files and clock hands were made in their own workshops. All the rest of their range - other files, clock parts and general tools (including pincers) were made by country hands.


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## Cheshirechappie (10 Apr 2017)

AndyT":1kni95g1 said:


> I don't know if it was still the case in the late Victorian period, but in the early 19th century when the likes of Peter Stubs were doing rather well in the Lancashire tool trade, there was a strong pattern of tools being made by small scale outworkers, known as "country hands." Tools were made in cottage workshops then gathered in to a named "manufacturer" who inspected them, marked them with his brand and sold them.
> 
> If Thewlis was using this system, their works could be far smaller than would have been needed for all the tools sold with their name on.
> 
> With Stubs, whose fame rested on files, only saw files and clock hands were made in their own workshops. All the rest of their range - other files, clock parts and general tools (including pincers) were made by country hands.



Ah - now, I'm glad you mentioned Peter Stubs and saw files, because I've got a whole new thread coming up on them, once I've done a bit more reading. There's also the wider question of Lancashire pattern tools in general....


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## AndyT (10 Apr 2017)

CC, I think I might have been reading the same book!


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## Cheshirechappie (10 Apr 2017)

AndyT":lr3pmrde said:


> CC, I think I might have been reading the same book!



'Peter Stubs and the Lancashire Hand Tool Industry' by E. Surrey Dane. Very good on watch and clock tools and saw files, but not so much on other Lancashire tools. Mind you, I've not finished reading it yet.....


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## AndyT (10 Apr 2017)

That's the one. Rather dry, isn't it?


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## Cheshirechappie (10 Apr 2017)

More than somewhat ..... which is one reason why I haven't quite finished it.


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