# Smith & Sweetman



## Jokerman (27 Mar 2007)

Has anyone seen the Smith & Sweetman Workshop prog. currently being put out on Sky ?

Forgive me if I'm being over critical, but if the standard of work they churn out is that of "Master Craftsmen" it's basically cr*p.

If the prog. is meant to teach woodworkers how to go about their beloved projects the pair should be shot.

Sloppy joints the like of which you could drive a bus through, gallons of glue dripping everywhere and bits of patches stuck into or over holes put in the wrong places. Wide boards made up from stock which is badly cupped without any attempt apart from brute force to put the problem right, never mind putting the edges over a jointer, or considering ripping the boards in half to true them up, etc. etc.

A programme like this should inspire woodworkers to take the time to get things right and think things out before starting a job. This is not to say I've never made a mistake or that I won't make another but, come on, we're supposed to learn from our errors and not repeat them. 

Surely TV companies have some kind of duty to vet progs. and make sure they are representative of the efforts put in by the vast majority of us who enjoy working with wood. From what I've seen so far I wouldn't have them knock together a rabbit hutch from old pallets, let alone pay them for doing it.

Long live David Free. At least he takes the time to try to get things right without resorting to bodge to cover up afterwards. These guys have relatively unlimited budgets to work with and viewers have a right to be educated as well as entertained, not conned into thinking "Oh it'll be alright, nobody will see it."

Moan over for the moment, but probably only until the next episode!

Mike


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## andys wood shed (27 Mar 2007)

And its a repeat :x 

Andy


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## PowerTool (27 Mar 2007)

Seen it a couple of times - not impressed :x (long live Norm :norm: ,if that's the best we can offer)

Andrew


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## PaulO (27 Mar 2007)

Jokerman":2n2chx59 said:


> Long live David Free.


Except for the fact his show is one big Trend promotion, and he is an antipodean hosting the Great "British" Woodshop.


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## Colin C (27 Mar 2007)

\/ \/ 

I glad to see I was not just me that was it as a bad program :roll: 

It you see the one when they did the cabriole legs and look at the edges of the legs when it is going around at the end :shock: :shock: .

They never show you the bits they have made up close ](*,) 

I think they were one of the winners of the competion that was run to get some new programs, well if they where some of the best ( I try for it :? ), then they where not look for good woodworkers that could do a show on making some thing.

You have to remember that it is the same people that made two series of Boyz in the wood :shock: ](*,)


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## RogerS (27 Mar 2007)

Colin C":agxmhjwe said:


> \/ \/
> 
> I glad to see I was not just me that was it as a bad program :roll:
> 
> ...



Is it made by the same company that does Big Brother. Think they're called Enema or something like that.


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## woodbloke (27 Mar 2007)

Roger Sindon wrote:


> Think they're called Enema or something like that


If the programme's as bad as that, sounds about par...  - Rob


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## Loz_S (27 Mar 2007)

Well if it was made by Joop van den *Ende* and John de *Mol* better know as Endemol (although enema sounds like a reasonable translation) then that would explain everything. This company fills Dutch TV with so much cra*p it is simply unbelievable...


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## wizer (27 Mar 2007)

I thought it was total rubbish.

do you think we are over critical of these programmes?


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## Smudger (27 Mar 2007)

A bit over-critical perhaps. After all, Sweetman doesn't seem to have a clue, and Smith can't string a whole sentence (sorry, word) together, and they have a serious tendency to bodge, and that chest of drawers cost £900 for timber, and they can't even measure properly and they bathe everything in glue...

No, possibly you are right. I have set the recorder to see how they get on with the Welsh Dresser, though.


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## wizer (27 Mar 2007)

I won't bother with the programme again but....

Don't we all make mistakes? I mean how many times have you watched Norm and thought: I bet he didn't get that right first time?

I'd absolutely love to see the Norm outakes


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## Smudger (27 Mar 2007)

Apparently there aren't any Norm out-takes because he doesn't make any mistakes. It must be true, it says so on his website...


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## Vormulac (27 Mar 2007)

To be fair, I have seen a couple of episodes of NYW where Norm has mentioned ballsing up something on the prototype and so is doing it differently on the second piece.
When I saw Smith and Sweetman a couple of years ago I thought it was ok-ish purely in terms of something to watch, but for a worthwhile woodworking programme give me NYW, The Great British Woodshop or the Cutting Edge Woodworker any day.

V.


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## wizer (27 Mar 2007)

Designer DIY was OK, Australian programme along the same lines as Smith and Sweetman but better produced.


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## Colin C (27 Mar 2007)

WiZeR":11o32j2d said:


> I thought it was total rubbish.
> 
> do you think we are over critical of these programmes?



Not when it comes to this one or the Boyz ](*,) 

My wife used to laugh at me with what I would say when they where on the first time :roll:


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## wizer (27 Mar 2007)

haha good point BoyZ in the Wood was terrible.


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## Anonymous (27 Mar 2007)

Sorry, don't agree with this criticism at all. There are very few woody programs around and S&S made qite a decent job of it

Smith and Sweetman make some decent furniture in those programs despite their inflated wood prices and the odd iffy joint. In my opinion, even a moderately skilled amateur can learn a lot from these programs

How many projects do we see on here that are made to a better quality? Certainly none of mine


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## Lord Nibbo (27 Mar 2007)

I'm with you Tony, ok they might use a bit more glue. It's different and refreshing change to dross like boys in the wood and that salvager who uses junk and makes junk look like junk. :lol:


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## Colin C (27 Mar 2007)

Tony 

I understand you point but I think you put yourself down far to much on this one as I can think of one thing for a start that you do much better than them.





















Your dovetails for a start :wink:


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## curlywol (28 Mar 2007)

Ok S&S isn't perfect
and certainly doesn't match the production excellence of NYW.
But at the moment any program dedicated to making things out of wood is welcome.
Unless you are a fisherman or interested in buying/renovating a second home in some obscure region in Spain you will not find much worth watching on the telly!  

John


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## woodbloke (28 Mar 2007)

Curlywol wrote:


> program dedicated to making things out of wood is welcome


Off topic a little, whatever happened to Handy Andy from Changing Rooms.....now there's a bloke who knew how to run stuff up :roll:   - Rob


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## wizer (28 Mar 2007)

woodbloke":1ae8cv9p said:


> whatever happened to Handy Andy



Presenting Gardening programmes..... DAMHIKT


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## curlywol (28 Mar 2007)

Ah yes Handy Andy!
He was a wizard with the old mdf.
You name it - he could botch it in one fell swoop of his dewalt saw :lol: 
They don't make programs like that anymore!!! :shock: 

John


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## mack9110000 (28 Mar 2007)

Isn't handy Andy on UKTV, Bright Ideas,"Our House".I'm sure it was him who made a picture frame yesterday,with mitres you could drive a bus through.


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## curlywol (28 Mar 2007)

Was it made out of mdf?

John


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## Colin C (28 Mar 2007)

You have to also remember that Handy Andy was first class at making units from mdf, outside :roll: 

That you could not get inside :twisted:


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## Smudger (28 Mar 2007)

I'm off sick at the moment, so I've just watched Rico Daniels making a 'kitchen' from old doors (could be interesting but looks a mess) and now its 'From Junk to Funk' with 'Master Craftsman' Gavin Lowe. He's making a mobile kitchen unit...

The only good tip from either of them that I have seen so far is having a blackboard on the workshop wall.

Gavin has cut dozens of bits of 2x2 into cubes, and he's now sticking them onto an MDF base with PVA. But at least he makes up a cutting list and measures his timber!


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## wizer (28 Mar 2007)

that junk to funk programme is THE WORST. I want to strangle the guy!

:-#


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## Smudger (28 Mar 2007)

He roughcut a load of 2x2 to within 1/4" or so, stuck them down and then used a belt sander to 'smooth' them. He then used PVA and sawdust to fill the many large gaps and voids, saying that as this was to be a food preparation surface a smooth finish was necessary...
I think he was planning to use yacht varnish on it.

I shudder to think how clean that surface would be on Day 2.

Made Rico Daniels look like David Charlesworth.


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## curlywol (28 Mar 2007)

This - cheap and cheerful - let's turn a shed door into a sideboard - mentality is at the heart of UK DIY programs :x 
Ok,his Normness has had the occasional log from the bottom of a salt lake flat, but at least he manages to produce something worthwhile  

John


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## curlywol (28 Mar 2007)

slightly off topic i know but,
why is it that most of Norm's projects look fine 'till he gets them into his finishing room? :? :lol: 

John


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## Sawdust (28 Mar 2007)

curlywol":2g5xd82p said:


> slightly off topic i know but,
> why is it that most of Norm's projects look fine 'till he gets them into his finishing room? :? :lol:
> 
> John



I couldn't agree more! All his finishes are far too dark for my liking and seem to make all woods look the same. It's a shame really because I like the things he makes.

Mike


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## Smudger (28 Mar 2007)

I don't know, but he often refers to being unhappy with/experimenting with finishes. He also favours a very dark, almost French, look, which can be a bit jarring.
Apparently the only 'helper' he has is with the finishing, though I suppose that means final sanding.

Edit - just seen that you made the point about dark finishes as well, Sawdust. And hey! Now I'm a woodworker! Easiest exam I ever took...


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## woodshavings (28 Mar 2007)

Tony":2j88dkob said:


> There are very few woody programs around and S&S made qite a decent job of it ..............
> 
> .............Smith and Sweetman make some decent furniture in those programs despite their inflated wood prices and the odd iffy joint.



I agree Tony, I have not watched all their programmes but I think they do a reasonable job and I for one, learn from them. (As well as from his Normness!)

John


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## Kane (29 Mar 2007)

Sawdust":1taszi1t said:


> curlywol":1taszi1t said:
> 
> 
> > slightly off topic i know but,
> ...



Surely that's part of the reason for making your own in the first place - you get what *YOU* like - or in my case you get a big pile of sawdust and some firewood


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## Sawdust (29 Mar 2007)

Kane":17pauwcl said:


> Sawdust":17pauwcl said:
> 
> 
> > curlywol":17pauwcl said:
> ...



I totally agree, I like his program because it's well made, he presents it well and his workshop is a dream but I never copy anything he makes or work from plans. The fun of making things yourself is making them your way.

Mike


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## dave261266 (29 Mar 2007)

I have definately seen some episodes of norm where he has cocked up. One my wife noticed was when he had placed something (can't recall quite what, hinge or a recess for one or something like that) on the wrong side of the piece. When she told me I didn't believe her but with the sky+ she proceeded to prove it to me with a very smug expression. :x 

So he definately puffins up, it's just very well editied (most of the time). 

I know what you mean about the glue with smith and sweetman, are they sponsored by one of the glue manufacturers ? Another one for that is Craig whateverhisnameis from big brother who does boys in the wood. It's half a gallon of glue per project with him too.


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## Jokerman (29 Mar 2007)

Although I'm normally the first to knock them they did seem to make a good job of the double bed in today's episode. The thing looked well made, sturdy and well finished, despite 2 pints too much glue and a couple of M&T's where the shoulder was overcut and didn't mate up properly. Perhaps they improve with age. Still paid too much for their timber though and even then admitted to wrongly ordering it.
Let's just hope things continue to get better.

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

Mike


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## misterfish (29 Mar 2007)

I must admit that I'm a bit of a woodworking program 'junkie' and that Norm takes some beating. It was my seeing NYW many years ago that rekindled my interest in woodworking, an interest completely snuffed out by being 'taught' woodworking at school in the 60's.

I find many of Norm's projects too fancy for my (and SWMBO's) liking, but having seen other American house buying and decorating shows it seems that the tastes on the other side of the pond are more conservative. 

When we watch Norm we always comment on the use of 'Donkey Brown' stain often hiding the beauty of the wood. Mind you, having seen most of the 2006 series and all of the current 2007 series to date it seems that there is a good variety. We also like the fact that Norm will visit other experts to learn the basics and then use them in his projects.

As for Norm never making mistakes - he sometimes says that things have needed to be changed since the prototype, and I remember when he made the wine storage unit that one piece broke while being bent and that he had had lots of problems making the prototype.

Now as for the other shows. 

The Great British Woodshop is a close second to Norm - even to the tools. I quite like his presentation and quiet manner.

Cutting Edge Woodworker - I find this a bit annoying and don't like a lot of the designs. He seems to have Alan Herd on hand to help out but never gives him any credit.

John Revell. I find the presentation of the programs extremely annoying, especially the jingles. Also I'm not too impressed with his stuff. I seem to remeber him showing the design for his wine rack - basically a cupboard with two opening doors containing a commercial wine rack. On the plan he showed the doors with a rebate along the edge of each so that one door held the other shut (I'm sure ther's a proper name for this). Watching him build it I could see that he had forgotten the overlap necessary and ended up with two doors that met in the middle.

From Junk to Funk - SWMBO and I have always referred to this as 'From scrap to cr*p' - need I say more - the fact that there is a stupid time limit demeans the program even more.

Salvager - At least Rico doesn't pretend this is high end - interesting to watch but not what I want in my house.

Boyz in the Wood - I can't really add any more to what has already been said - the only thing to remember is that Craig is a builder rather than a carpenter!

Blizzard - A lot of people raved about his programs, but I was never impressed with his work, only a bit better than the Boyz.

Finally S & S. Yes, why don't they joint their boards, there's a P/T in the workshop. They could get their timber nice and flat and square edged. I really liked the banana shape of the dresser worktop, but when clamped into place it seemed to go flat - I just wonder if it will split. It is reassuring to see that they make mistakes and usually manage to recover from them (the mortices in the wrong place on the coffee table immediately spring to mind). It is also nice to see use of hand tools. Despite the criticisms, the projects actually look good when finished.

So realistically I don't expect details of specific projects from any of these - what I want and hope for are ideas to stimulate my thoughts and demonstrations of techniques and tools. I would like to see less use of pins and nails through the face of projects - filled holes always show. When I do things I glue and clamp and wait.

I must also mention This Old House - firstly because it's got Norm in it, but also because it is interesting to see Tom Silva using a variety of new techniques and materials and producing some decent woodwork along the way.

I used to watch Bob Vila and his builder/carpenter (another Bob I think) - who came on one week with his arm encased in bandages after an accident with an unguarded saw blade - it amazed me that he was back working within a few weeks.

Finally Hometime. I liked watching Dean and Robyn but currently he has another helper who is just not Robyn. I was watching the episode about two or three weeks ago and cringed when a piece of wood only an inch or so wide was ripped on a portable table saw by one of his team without using a saw guard or push stick - yes he pushed it by hand with his fingers next to the blade. I felt quite quesy afterwards.

MisterFish


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## Vormulac (29 Mar 2007)

misterfish":34pomx7u said:


> John Revell. I find the presentation of the programs extremely annoying,



Ah yes, John 'Oooh haven't I got a lot of money' Revell - utterly pointless programs that just show us what this random moneybags is doing with his cash (like paying tradesmen lots of money to renovate his house - amazing...)



misterfish":34pomx7u said:


> Salvager - At least Rico doesn't pretend this is high end - interesting to watch but not what I want in my house.



Yes, great fun to watch, but not necessarily a prime example of fine carpentry - but that's not the point :wink: 



misterfish":34pomx7u said:


> Blizzard - A lot of people raved about his programs, but I was never impressed with his work, only a bit better than the Boyz.


Never heard of this one.

Incidentally, I see that since Virgin rebranded TeleWest/NTL there is now a '+1' channel for Real Time, now they just need to put some ruddy woodworking programmes back on it...


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## Smudger (29 Mar 2007)

Do you remember the Furniture Guys? I liked them, a pity Sky doesn't have their programmes.

If you've never heard of them, they have a website of course:

http://www.furnitureguys.com/index.php


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## Kane (29 Mar 2007)

Was the wood for that chest REALLY £900!!!!!!!


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## misterfish (29 Mar 2007)

Blizzard - he made wooden toys and had a series or two. He also published a few books. From what I can remember his stuff had a certain roughness (like a better quality 'Boyz' production.

Misterfish


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## misterfish (29 Mar 2007)

Vormulac":27xvvudt said:


> Incidentally, I see that since Virgin rebranded TeleWest/NTL there is now a '+1' channel for Real Time, now they just need to put some ruddy woodworking programmes back on it...



Yes - on Sky there is Real Time, +1 and Extra - but they still keep showing the same old episodes of programs over and over again.

MisterFish


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## Shultzy (29 Mar 2007)

misterfish":3vnxhf4q said:


> Blizzard - he made wooden toys and had a series or two. He also published a few books. From what I can remember his stuff had a certain roughness (like a better quality 'Boyz' production.
> 
> Misterfish



I have a couple of books of Blizzars toys and "rough" is not one of the words I would use to describe them. My avatar shows his fork lift truck (bigger picture on my photo site) and they are much more complicated to build than furniture. certainly not "rough".


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## woodbloke (29 Mar 2007)

Agree with Shultzy here. I had all of off Blizzard's books at one time and 'rough' is not a word I would use to describe his work.....impressive springs immediately to mind - Rob


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## Anonymous (30 Mar 2007)

I have had to stay at home yesterday and today and so have seen two episodes of S&S. I have to say that I am impressed with the range of tools and techniques they show. Today, they cut some housing DTs and showed two ways of cutting the slot with router and chisel and with a jig for the router. For the tails, they cut one by hand only and one with a router.

Also, someone mentioned that they are a Trend advertisement? Don't agree really as they use a range of tools typical of any workshop - their handplanes are old and tatty, as are chisels etc., the machines are newer, but the router for rounding over a piece was a very old ELU with tape wrapped around the top to hold something in place. They have a typical range as far as I can see - I have more trend routers than they do :lol:


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## misterfish (30 Mar 2007)

Blizzard. I'm not talking about his books, (which are no doubt good) but about a series many years ago on BBC. Maybe due to time constraints or costs it seemed that things were rushed and poorly finished. I remember that my kids were youngish at the time (and are now in their late twenties) and thinking that if they played with the toys he made that we'd be forever pulling splinters out of their fingers etc!

Blimey - I've just checked and it seems they were made in 1983, so the kids would have been 6 and 4 - doesn't time rush by!

MisterFish


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## Kane (30 Mar 2007)

I think that Blizzard series was made with the vet (or ex-vet) that has made loads of "A Plane/Car/Chopper is Born) series shown on Sky over the years ....


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## misterfish (30 Mar 2007)

Kane":29159lxa said:


> I think that Blizzard series was made with the vet (or ex-vet) that has made loads of "A Plane/Car/Chopper is Born) series shown on Sky over the years ....



Yes - that rings a bell now you mention it - it's just that after more than 20 years the details (or should I say brain) start to fade.

Also, I was pleased to see that S & S used the jointer to get decent flat surfaces to glue for the garden table central pillar on this mornings show.

MisterFish


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## Jokerman (30 Mar 2007)

Maybe they plugged into this forum and took some of the criticism on board. Have to admit though that the last few progs have been to a better standard and even Den is now telling James off for the amount of glue he squeezes everywhere.

Onwards and upwards lads.

Mike


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## PaulO (30 Mar 2007)

Kane":zcw4tsja said:


> I think that Blizzard series was made with the vet (or ex-vet) that has made loads of "A Plane/Car/Chopper is Born) series shown on Sky over the years ....



It was called "Wood Wizard" and was truly atrocious.


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## lugo35 (30 Mar 2007)

thought it was ok prog. if it can motivate people to have a go, got to be good thing.
didnt like some of the thinks they have done. but hay norm aint perfect,


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## andys wood shed (30 Mar 2007)

I enjoy the woodwork content of Restoration Man 

but I could be on my own on this one


Andy


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## Kane (30 Mar 2007)

lugo35":11ha4wx9 said:


> but hay norm aint perfect,



PERSECUTE THE UNBELIEVER :shock: :evil: :twisted: 

:wink:


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## Colin C (30 Mar 2007)

andys wood shed":3qe2rjzn said:


> I enjoy the woodwork content of Restoration Man
> 
> but I could be on my own on this one
> 
> ...



Please *dont* get me started on that one :roll: 

It may have looked good but some of the things he did and used :shock: .

I would not have used or simply not have done the way he did it ( I am not saying there is just one way to do some jobs but there is a right and wrong way :twisted: ) .

Like when he changed some of the chair rails when it was just one that was broken or how he repaired the leg on the same chair.

A friend I use work with used to laugh at some of the things he did and so did I.
Please dont get me wrong as I think Alan Herd is a good joiner but he is no restorer [-(


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## andys wood shed (30 Mar 2007)

Colin,

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 


Andy


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## Colin C (30 Mar 2007)

Andy

If you start swearing again, I will to come a round and slap your legs :roll: :wink: 

He could not have got a job in any firm I have worked for :roll:


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## lugo35 (30 Mar 2007)

blasphemy against norm? someone got to do it


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## curlywol (31 Mar 2007)

lugo35":29rulcke said:


> blasphemy against norm? someone got to do it


How dare you!
How VERY dare you!!!!! :evil: :evil:  
john


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