# More price increases



## Spectric (10 Jul 2021)

Price increases have been a topic recently but with my current energy deal ending I have found that Uk energy prices have increased, for me £20 month best deal and blamed on wholesale energy cost and they will be even more for those on std tarrifs. When will we see some kind of leveling out because now we could be using more expensive materials and spending more to keep the shop warm and illuminated, not to mention our homes.


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## Misterdog (10 Jul 2021)

I was talking to my metal fabricator today and complaining that timber prices have risen 20/30 %.

He said some of his steel prices have doubled since last year. 

Used car prices up 20%, energy costs up 25% labour costs up 8%.

We could blame Brexit if we were that way inclined.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jul 2021)

So could the rest of the world if they were that way inclined.


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## Adam W. (11 Jul 2021)

There may be something in that though, as I was comparing the m3 price of walnut in Denmark, not the cheapest part of the world, to prices in the UK.

Denmark £3500/m3 to UK £4500/m3 at Lathams


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## Cabinetman (11 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> There may be something in that though, as I was comparing the m3 price of walnut in Denmark, not the cheapest part of the world, to prices in the UK.
> 
> Denmark £3500/m3 to UK £4500/m3 at Lathams


 £3583 inc vat at my local yard for Prime American black walnut, But yes things have gone up. Ian


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## sploo (11 Jul 2021)

Probably 90% Covid, 5% backlog from Suez canal blockage, 5% Brexit. I could point out that two of the three will eventually go away, but that's risks getting people grumpy


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## Rorschach (11 Jul 2021)

25% increase for us on our energy bills


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## Rorschach (11 Jul 2021)

sploo said:


> Probably 90% Covid, 5% backlog from Suez canal blockage, 5% Brexit. I could point out that two of the three will eventually go away, but that's risks getting people grumpy



quiet, you will awaken the Jacob if you aren't careful


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## Terry - Somerset (11 Jul 2021)

For the last 5 years crude oil prices have been in the range of $50-70 per barrel. 

However for a brief period at the start of the Covid pandemic prices fell to negative levels - suppliers paid customers to take it away! More generally the price fell to ~$20 per barrel for Feb - May 2020.

I suspect that these low oil prices were embedded in energy contracts signed up about a year ago which are now ending. And before anyone says "oil is not a major component of UK energy generation" a similar trend occurred in natural gas markets.

It may just be that prices are rebounding to levels last seen two or more years ago!


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## D_W (12 Jul 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> £3583 inc vat at my local yard for Prime American black walnut, But yes things have gone up. Ian



"american walnut" is exorbitantly expensive here in America. Walnut's not really an issue of inflation - I guess it's a problem of blight here. What's around for $10 a board foot here is like cabinet sticking. 2x4 lumber here (due to futures) had gone from about $2.50 to $8 per at one point - not sure where it is now. It was just construction lumber and plywood that was way up, but exotics and such (that don't have wide appeal) are unchanged. The walnut issue has crept up over the last decade or so - which is strange, as I haven't seen much demand for it here in finished use (it's just a decline in supply without that being due to absurd demand). 

Cherry on the stump here is almost worthless. White oak is relatively high (though that might be slipping) due to distillery disasters making for big demand to replace barrels. Red oak is and always was worth almost nothing, and there's no no organized small market or beech here (it's usually burned).


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## highwood122 (12 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> "american walnut" is exorbitantly expensive here in America. Walnut's not really an issue of inflation - I guess it's a problem of blight here. What's around for $10 a board foot here is like cabinet sticking. 2x4 lumber here (due to futures) had gone from about $2.50 to $8 per at one point - not sure where it is now. It was just construction lumber and plywood that was way up, but exotics and such (that don't have wide appeal) are unchanged. The walnut issue has crept up over the last decade or so - which is strange, as I haven't seen much demand for it here in finished use (it's just a decline in supply without that being due to absurd demand).
> 
> Cherry on the stump here is almost worthless. White oak is relatively high (though that might be slipping) due to distillery disasters making for big demand to replace barrels. Red oak is and always was worth almost nothing, and there's no no organized small market or beech here (it's usually burned).


 on


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## Blackswanwood (12 Jul 2021)

As I understand it there are three key reasons that household energy bills are rising.

First the wholesale cost of energy has increased driven by demand as economic activity in Asia has picked back up post pandemic.

Second, the move towards greener sources of energy.

Third, the regulator making a concession to suppliers that has added £23 per household to bills to cover the costs of dealing with loss of revenue during the pandemic.

For me the first two fall into the category of "fair enough" but less so the third one where I feel perhaps the regulator should have held firm and helped the energy suppliers to shoulder a bit of the cost of the pandemic.


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## highwood122 (12 Jul 2021)

on the timbercut website uk. american cherry is the same price as black walnut. how do you account for that. some people might suggest it is a case of "catch as catch can"


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## hairy (12 Jul 2021)

I was told the price of getting a shipping container to the UK from China has gone from 3_4£K to 10K.
Cement was about £6 a waterproof bag last year for me to almost twice that now. Nearest B&Q to me is limiting them to two per customer so I'm told. A strainer fence post was about £23 last year to £40 now.


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## CatIII (12 Jul 2021)

VAT...value added tax. I was a kid at school when this was introduced as we joined the common market as it was called then. I remeber asking teach why we had to pay it and not receiving a suitable reply. Now we've left, can we stop paying it now?
Regards from a old hard liner who remembers thing like this!


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## Spectric (12 Jul 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Third, the regulator making a concession to suppliers that has added £23 per household to bills to cover the costs of dealing with loss of revenue during the pandemic.


Why should customers have to make donations to a business, running any business involves uncertainty and risk and you have to take the bad times as well as good and just let some fail, no point in proping up a dying one. So they lose revenue due to the pandemic, why because people must still be using gas and electricity but many other businesses will have lost out due to the pandemic but my local timber supplier or garage are not asking for donations and both lost revenue due to the pandemic.


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## Misterdog (12 Jul 2021)

Just spoken to Arnold Lavers.

MDF has risen 25% and going up a further 40% next month.
Quoted £ 68 plus VAT for 1 x 22mm MR sheet.   

OSB has risen 60%.


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## Misterdog (12 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Why should customers have to make donations to a business, running any business involves uncertainty and risk and you have to take the bad times as well as good and just let some fail, no point in proping up a dying one. So they lose revenue due to the pandemic, why because people must still be using gas and electricity but many other businesses will have lost out due to the pandemic but my local timber supplier or garage are not asking for donations and both lost revenue due to the pandemic.




With everyone in lockdown the gas/electric use increased dramatically.
People used to the heating provided free at work, thought it ok to have the same at home.
Then the bills come in and many cannot afford it.

Look at all the material cost increases, should all the merchants be allowed to go out of business.

Hopefully supply and demand will return some level of sanity, but all these businesses have lost a years revenue (merchants). they are all blaming their suppliers but the rises are cumulative, raw materials up 30% merchants profit margin adds 100% then VAT adds 20%.
All adds up to a 60/100% 'retail' increase.

Wages are also rising rapidly to a shortage of workers, isolating/Brexit.


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## Spectric (12 Jul 2021)

Looks like the interest rate needs to rise to put the brakes on inflation. With an economy so heavily relient on finance this could get that going and then drop VAT to say 10% for two years to get the consumer spending.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2021)

My wife works for a (an upmarket) bank - they've been warned to expect negative interest rates.


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## J-G (12 Jul 2021)

CatIII said:


> VAT...value added tax. I was a kid at school when this was introduced as we joined the common market as it was called then. I remeber asking teach why we had to pay it and not receiving a suitable reply. Now we've left, can we stop paying it now?
> Regards from a old hard liner who remembers thing like this!


You obviously don't remember Purchase Tax and have no concept of a 'Sales Tax'. VAT simply replaced Purchase Tax and was/is vastly easier to manage -- I certainly wouldn't want to go back to Purchase Tax which was levied on the WHOLESALE price of the material but charged out depending upon the use to which the material was converted (what 'Value' was 'Added'). I destictly remember having to charge 16-5/8% of the wholesale cost of card if I used it to make Business cards with space to make notes but 0% if they were fully printed !!

Oh, before you say get rid of 'Sales Tax' altogether --- would you be happier with a 50% increase (a guestimate) in Income tax ?


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## Misterdog (12 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> drop VAT to say 10% for two years to get the consumer spending.



Though as Covid has cost 100's of billions and the government is broke then VAT is more likely to rise IMO.


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## Woody2Shoes (12 Jul 2021)

hairy said:


> ....
> Cement was about £6 a waterproof bag last year for me to almost twice that now. Nearest B&Q to me is limiting them to two per customer so I'm told
> .....


Lawks! Down south, B&Q are still doing cement at about £4.80 a bag - with a limit of 5 bags per customer.

Cement is an interesting example.

The main cost inputs are gas (basically burning limestone) and diesel (trucking the stuff round the country). The cost of both these inputs has gone up markedly over recent months as the price of oil, which crashed with Covid, has "recovered" to the low $70's (although this is now not so different from the pre-Covid price).

There is also the question of supply and demand (and availability of alternative products/suppliers):
- Because it's very bulky, there's little commercial incentive to ship it in from overseas, so we generally rely on domestic production. There are no real alternative for many applications. It also has a short shelf-life, so can't really be "stockpiled".
- Large economies of scale exist in producing what is in effect a commodity, so new plants require large investment and long-ish timescales. Ownership of existing plants has consolidated over the years (I made some cash when the Mexicans bought out Rugby cement a decade or more ago). So there are big reasons why production capacity has an effectively fixed upper limit.

So the problem is basically that supply is constrained. Demand changes recently include:
1 - A backlog of works that have been delayed due to Covid (it's difficult to judge the actual extent of this, because Brexit and Covid are still creating labour shortages which are probably constraining construction activity levels overall).
2 - My theory (based on no real information) - is that a significant part of domestic production capacity has also been diverted to supplying contracts for big infrastructure projects like Sizewell C and HS2

I think it will be interesting to see the annual reports of the cement companies in 6-9 months or so.

Cheers, W2S


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## Jonm (13 Jul 2021)

CatIII said:


> VAT...value added tax. I was a kid at school when this was introduced as we joined the common market as it was called then. I remeber asking teach why we had to pay it and not receiving a suitable reply. Now we've left, can we stop paying it now?
> Regards from a old hard liner who remembers thing like this!


. We used to have purchase tax, levied once by the retailer. Only businesses selling to the public got involved in the tax and it applied just to sales, no claiming back tax on purchases. Nice and simple. I can remember going in to a shop and buying a dormer twist drill and being charged vat, it was my first experience of this new, all encompassing tax. Purchase tax was only applied to luxury items such as cars, washing machines etc. There was no purchase tax on tools, wood, metal, clothes, food, sweets, telephone bills, house extensions, grass seed, repairs to luxury items, garage bills, tyres, solicitors fees and much more.

Now we have virtually every business in the country involved in charging vat and claiming it back. Including those who do not sell to the public. What a ridiculous way of collecting tax, it must cost the businesses and hence us a fortune In administration. Then there is the complexity, a builder friend of mine had one job where he had to charge three different vat rates, so materials, plant and labour all had to be split in to the different vat bands. Pre vat days his involvement in tax would be limited to Income tax, which of course he still has.

No doubt someone on here will tell be why Vat is so much better than purchase tax.


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## J-G (13 Jul 2021)

Jonm said:


> No doubt someone on here will tell be why Vat is so much better than purchase tax.


I thought I already had !

The biggest difference between VAT & Purchase Tax - as far as Joe Public is concerned - is the fact that you were never told how much PT you paid, it was just included in the price - or not if the rate was zero (seldom). Incidentally, any manufacturer did claim back the amount of PT he paid. That's another point - PT was dealt with by *manufacturers* rather than traders.

It's too long ago so I no longer have the details at my fingertips but I was registered for Purchase Tax and even though my turnover was never going to mean that I MUST register for VAT, I knew that I would be wise to self register and am still completing my quarterly return which takes me 5 minutes whereas Purchase Tax reporting would take a number of days. Even then, an inspector could well decide that in his/her opinion it had been incorrectly charged and issue a fine.,

AFAIAA, Materials, Plant & Labour are all charged at 'Standard' Rate so I think your builder friend is mistaken. There are very few anomalies in VAT, though naturally there are some, such as children's clothes (charged at zero rate) being large enough for small people but that sort of thing is normal in any kind of law drafting.

Most (if not all) oddities are the province of specific industries such as Energy where the 5% rate stands. The majority of goods are either 'Standard' or 'Zero', the other two categories being 'Outside Scope' and 'Exempt' the later mostly to do with financial transactions and the former deals with low volume trade between non-registered small businesses - both on the extremes of the 'Normal' business spectrum.

Another 'benefit' of VAT is that it can be used as a crude method of controlling the economy -- by reducing the standard rate in an effort to promote spending -- whereas Purchase Tax was far too complex to be used in this way.


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## JobandKnock (13 Jul 2021)

--


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## bushwhaker (13 Jul 2021)

I think that reason is pouring the money from FED and ECB for stimulating the economy. All raw materials and energy are up.


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## fhsa (13 Jul 2021)

CatIII said:


> VAT...value added tax. I was a kid at school when this was introduced as we joined the common market as it was called then. I remeber asking teach why we had to pay it and not receiving a suitable reply. Now we've left, can we stop paying it now?
> Regards from a old hard liner who remembers thing like this!


Surely you remember the purchase tax that VAT replaced? All it was in effect was a change of name.
Also an old-timer who had to do sums in £sd


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2021)

VAT? I used to get caught out doing my books quite regularly - the figures would almost tie up, but not quite. Everything I sold carried VAT except lighter gas and nuts and raisins, which were VAT free. Lighter petrol carried VAT, as did peanuts.
I always remember purchase tax. I remember getting licensed trade freebies, two dishes with shaped rims so they fitted together as a box. One of the sherry companies, iirc. The rep. said of course they were ash trays not boxes - the tax was 33% on ash trays but only 15% on boxes.

No it wasn't just a name change, it was a very different system.


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## Keith Cocker (13 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> We could blame Brexit if we were that way inclined.



I am and I do!!!


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## AlanY (13 Jul 2021)

Remember when the price of crude skyrocketed to $120 per barrel, causing fuel at the pump to hit £1.30 per litre? Well, crude is now $74 per barrel with pump prices being around the £1.34 per litre mark.

Somebody is taking the 'pee'.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> I am and I do!!!


Funny how the price increases are worldwide, then, isn't?


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## Paul555 (13 Jul 2021)

Not so much a whinge about rising prices...more an issue with how they are passed on. Very recently I called at a local timber yard needing a single length of 3m decking board for a particular job for someone. It had to be 150mm x 32mm to match the existing stuff and this was the only place I could find it within a reasonable distance. This company publish their prices on their web site and I had a printed price sheet just a few weeks old. It should have cost £.6.60. I asked the guy if he could cut in half so I could fit it in the car. The cut took 2 secs on a RAS. Came to pay...£11.40, + 50p for the cut!!! His reply when a queeried the price... "You should have asked how much" I paid because I needed the board, but took great delight in telling him that 50p cutting charge had just cost him the profit on 80 square metres of the same stuff for replacing the decking at the back of my own house the following week. I appreciate he's running a small business but there's a way to keep customers coming back and he's yet to learn it.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2021)

Ah, but did you ask for 2 x 1.5m pieces? He might have been able to cut them from a damaged/badly flawed piece. Always better to have them in your tent peeing out ...


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## Jonm (13 Jul 2021)

J-G said:


> I thought I already had !
> 
> The biggest difference between VAT & Purchase Tax - as far as Joe Public is concerned - is the fact that you were never told how much PT you paid, it was just included in the price - or not if the rate was zero (seldom). Incidentally, any manufacturer did claim back the amount of PT he paid. That's another point - PT was dealt with by *manufacturers* rather than traders.
> 
> ...


Interesting. With regard to my builder friend, it was a few years ago and I did not go in to details. I imagine he was charging his customer for new build (0%), extension (20%) and probably conversion from non residential to residential (5%). Not sure what AFAIAA has to do with it.

Clearly from what you say, purchase tax, as it was implemented was very cumbersome. But it seems to me that getting all businesses to charge vat on what they sell and claim it back on what they buy is also incredibly bureaucratic.

When vat was introduced, it coincided with hand operated calculators becoming available but was still a lot of extra work for many businesses. Perhaps computerised accounts now makes the collection comparatively simple.

I have never liked VAT, mainly because it was charged on everyday things, not luxuries, got us used to paying it then steadily increased it. Purchase tax encouraged repair rather than replace, vat as implemented in uk does not do that.

Anyway, changing VAT to another system would be very disruptive, expensive and no political will so I cannot see it happening. My understanding of collection costs are that having different rates considerably increases them, and the chancellor has just introduced a temporary reduction for some sectors of the economy. It would be interesting to know what the collection cost are.

I can recall being charged 25% vat for a towing ball, the justification at the time was that “it could be used to tow a boat trailer“ and boats were 25% vat rated.


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## hairy (13 Jul 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> I am and I do!!!


You've got that the wrong way round.
If it wasn't for Brexit everything would be much more expensive


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## Paul555 (13 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Ah, but did you ask for 2 x 1.5m pieces? He might have been able to cut them from a damaged/badly flawed piece. Always better to have them in your tent peeing out ...


He'd probably have charged me a stock search & handling fee!!!


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## Jonm (13 Jul 2021)

hairy said:


> You've got that the wrong way round.
> If it wasn't for Brexit everything would be much more expensive


Not sure if you are serious. At the moment brexit has not increased the value of the pound which would make things cheaper and it may have decreased the value of the pound, difficult to tell. As for other effects we will have to wait and see as we emerge from coronavirus and as the years (decades) unfold.


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> My wife works for a (an upmarket) bank - they've been warned to expect negative interest rates.


So they would pay us interest on the money we borrow from them, cannot imagine anyone doing that and if you have savings you would be better spending now rather than later as your buying power will be falling.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> ... if you have savings you would be better spending now rather than later as your buying power will be falling.



Precisely.


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## Terry - Somerset (13 Jul 2021)

*Wikipedia:

Purchase Tax was a tax levied between 1940[1] and 1973[1] on the wholesale value of luxury goods sold in the UK. Introduced on 21 October 1940, with the stated aim of reducing the wastage of raw materials during WWII, it was initially set at a rate of 33⅓%.* 

Rates proliferated and it became increasingly complex which rates applied to which products. VAT by comparison is fairly simple and with accounting largely based on IT systems, should now be fairly straightforward to maintain and report.


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## Jonm (13 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> With everyone in lockdown the gas/electric use increased dramatically.
> People used to the heating provided free at work, thought it ok to have the same at home.
> Then the bills come in and many cannot afford it.
> 
> ...


I think you are triple counting here. Using your figures

retailerer buys for £100
sells for £200 plus vat (100% markup)
total £240

prices go up 30%
retailer buys for £130
sells for £260 plus vat (100% markup)
total £312

£240 plus 30% (£72) is £312.

The above assumes that all the retailers other costs have gone up by 30%, his markup has gone from £100 to £130.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2021)

His % mark up hasn't changed.


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## sploo (13 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> So they would pay us interest on the money we borrow from them, cannot imagine anyone doing that and if you have savings you would be better spending now rather than later as your buying power will be falling.


Nah, they won't pay _you_, or me, interest on money we borrow. There's usually small print that clamps things at 0% if rates drop negative. At a larger (business to business) scale it might work like that, but not for us plebs


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2021)

But who is daft enough to lend money for zero gains, in fact they will be losing so maybe this will put the brakes on house prices and help make people think of them as their home and not an investment.


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## Jonm (13 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> His % mark up hasn't changed.


I was replying to 


Misterdog said:


> the rises are cumulative, raw materials up 30% merchants profit margin adds 100% then VAT adds 20%.
> All adds up to a 60/100% 'retail' increase.
> 
> Wages are also rising rapidly to a shortage of workers, isolating/Brexit.


The suggestion being that 30% increase in raw materials translates to 60/100% increase in retail cost.

If buying price goes up by 30% and markup markup remains at 100% then the retail price goes up by 30%.
If buying price goes up by 30% and selling price goes up by 100% then markup has increased from 100% to over 200%.


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## kevinlightfoot (13 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Just spoken to Arnold Lavers.
> 
> MDF has risen 25% and going up a further 40% next month.
> Quoted £ 68 plus VAT for 1 x 22mm MR sheet.
> ...


Arnold Lavers tried to rip me off for some oak only a couple ow weeks ago,their prices are ridiculous.


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## D_W (13 Jul 2021)

Jonm said:


> I was replying to
> 
> The suggestion being that 30% increase in raw materials translates to 60/100% increase in retail cost.
> 
> ...



They may be matching prices to futures under the assumption that doing otherwise would leave them unable to buy replacement stock. 

Interestingly, gas stations here often do this, but they tend to lower prices based on the spot market making curious claims that illuminate that they "won't be able to refill tanks based on spot market prices", but they're not concerned with the fact that they're collecting enough to do it several times on spot market prices when futures drop.


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## D_W (13 Jul 2021)

(or translated, I think pricing strategies are generally gamed so that volatility and associated confusion creates temporary high profits with a supposed rational excuse - some of the box stores here have gotten a little exposed as lumber futures went up and 2x4s tripled in price. As in, attempting to snag customers on the back side of the price hike after futures and spot have already gone down makes one retailer look bad when another one halves their prices literally weeks or a month earlier). 

In the US, the idea of creating repeat customers through some kind of loyalty is long gone, though, and it's not like you can call and get an honest answer (sometimes you will get a refund because the return policies allow no-reason returns and all you have to do is say "I'll just return it, then, and go buy at retailer B". This isn't offered, though, you have to say what you're going to do and make it unrewarding for the retailer).


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> In the US, the idea of creating repeat customers through some kind of loyalty is long gone


Same in the Uk, but we do have some that get a following because they are customer focused and do care about delivering quality but many DGAS and others only if you spend at least a certain amount regular, like Travisty Perkins and the other big merchants who get plenty of sales through big buyers so the average joe is not important to them.


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## D_W (13 Jul 2021)

The key to finding good service is a retailer looking to increase market share. Once they are established and start looking at their data, they all default to finding uneducated customers that make up 90% of the market. Data analysis has killed the idea that customer continuity is really profitable and the few seemingly dedicated types here (LV and LN are good examples - but there are examples across the board re: woodturning supply places here that have super awesome prices for exotics and such and are very knowledgeable). 

In the US at least, not all of the mom and pop stores were really that great, either. Many were entitled - feeling, because distributors protected them unless people were willing to drive, they wouldn't refund for poor items, and they paid their employees horribly. They were an easy target for early iterations of box stores (which had better goods and better prices here - they were in the growth phase).


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## J-G (13 Jul 2021)

Jonm said:


> Interesting. With regard to my builder friend, it was a few years ago and I did not go in to details. I imagine he was charging his customer for new build (0%), extension (20%) and probably conversion from non residential to residential (5%). Not sure what AFAIAA has to do with it.


AFAIAA = As far as I am aware -- I had forgotten about the 'New Build' zero rate & didn't know about the residential conversion issue - I don't have contacts in the building trade 

Purchase Tax was eventually also charged on non luxury goods, I was involved because I ran a small printing business and you could hardly consider order books or business cards to be 'luxury'. 

On the 25% for boats - I have never needed to enquire though I did at one time avidly read all the 'news' published by HMRC as far as VAT was concerned and don't recall a 'luxury' rate being introduced but I do know that the VAT status of yachts is something that needs scrutiny and good documentation. After all we really are talking 'luxury' items now.


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## Doug71 (13 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Just spoken to Arnold Lavers.
> 
> MDF has risen 25% and going up a further 40% next month.
> Quoted £ 68 plus VAT for 1 x 22mm MR sheet.
> ...



Last week I got 20 sheets of 15mm Medite MR MDF from Lavers for £22.95 plus vat per sheet delivered, thought that was fine, seems like prices are all over the place at the moment.


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## doctor Bob (13 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Quoted £ 68 plus VAT for 1 x 22mm MR sheet.



  someone is yanking your chain, even with price rises that is truely ridiculous.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2021)

Maybe 22mm is a size they don't stock?


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## D_W (13 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> someone is yanking your chain, even with price rises that is truely ridiculous.



"if this keeps up, I'm going to get my own termites and glue their poop together myself!"


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## Jonm (13 Jul 2021)

J-G said:


> AFAIAA = As far as I am aware -- I had forgotten about the 'New Build' zero rate & didn't know about the residential conversion issue - I don't have contacts in the building trade
> 
> Purchase Tax was eventually also charged on non luxury goods, I was involved because I ran a small printing business and you could hardly consider order books or business cards to be 'luxury'.
> 
> On the 25% for boats - I have never needed to enquire though I did at one time avidly read all the 'news' published by HMRC as far as VAT was concerned and don't recall a 'luxury' rate being introduced but I do know that the VAT status of yachts is something that needs scrutiny and good documentation. After all we really are talking 'luxury' items now.


I looked up the 25% vat rate. Initially Vat was set at 10%, Dennis Healey introduced two rates. Between 1974 and 1976 the rates were 8% and 25%.
“Higher rate introduced in November 1974 to apply to petrol (but not derv). In May 1975 this was extended to apply to a range of other consumer goods, for example domestic electrical appliances, radios, TVs and hi-fi equipment, furs and jewellery.“ 

I have remembered, it was the towing hitch (not ball) that I paid 25% vat on, it was for an ordinary small trailer but because I “could” use it on a boat trailer I was charged the higher rate. Shows the difficulty of two rates. I still have the trailer and hitch.

I found your comments on purchase tax interesting, it obviously needed simplifying. I can now see a problem with a simple sales tax. How to tell who is a final customer and who is trade and is going to charge their customer sales tax. 

For example, I go in to say screwfix and buy some glue, screws and paint. I then go in to the builders merchant and buy some wood. I pay sales tax on both transactions.

A furniture maker goes in to the same shops and buys the same items. He or she should not pay sales tax. They then use the items to make some furniture which they then sell and charge the sales tax.

The problem is that screwfix and the builders merchants have to sometimes charge tax and sometimes not, depending on the customer. I can see that being very difficult and open to tax fraud. So maybe VAT is not as bad as I think, it is difficult to avoid.


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## TRITON (14 Jul 2021)

Will this lead to the stealth theft of entire trees. A coule of furniture makers hatching a plan on whatsapp and slinking off into the forest, saws in hand.... :?


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## J-G (14 Jul 2021)

Jonm said:


> ...Dennis Healey introduced two rates. Between 1974 and 1976 the rates were 8% and 25%. ...


Nearly correct - it was between July '74 & June *'79 *- I was having difficulty remembering there ever being a 25% rate but now I've done the research I ought to have done earlier  !! (All my past comments are from memory) I recall that the STANDARD rate was never 25%, this was the 'Higher rate' which existed for the 5 years when the Standard Rate was 8% -- and even that was cut to 12½% -- I've never sold petrol or 'luxury goods' so the fact had not been retained, though undoubtedly I was aware of it at the time -- it was 40+ years ago after-all 

During that 5 year period I was selling DIY goods from 2 high street shops in Coventry.


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## hairy (14 Jul 2021)

Hi

I wasn't being serious because I think no-one could have any sort of definitive opinion for a generation or two yet.
But, the pound has indeed risen since we left at the beginning of this year which your graph does show but not very clearly because of the timescale you've shown. The big peak prior to the Brexit vote was certainly a blip over the period since 2008 at least.

Most anti Brexit commentry in the press talking about how the pound has plummeted usually pick a start date of just before the Brexit vote within that blip because that shows pretty much the worst scenario.

No point worrying about it though 



Jonm said:


> Not sure if you are serious. At the moment brexit has not increased the value of the pound which would make things cheaper and it may have decreased the value of the pound, difficult to tell. As for other effects we will have to wait and see as we emerge from coronavirus and as the years (decades) unfold.


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## NormanB (14 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> I was talking to my metal fabricator today and complaining that timber prices have risen 20/30 %.
> 
> He said some of his steel prices have doubled since last year.
> 
> ...


The USA are blaming their logistics issues and price rises in materials on Brexit too. Go figure.


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## NormanB (14 Jul 2021)

In other news, in the USA construction lumber has seen recent price adjustment downwards.


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## fhsa (14 Jul 2021)

Just looked up the receipt for when my Dad bought his mini in 1960. List price ex-works £378 10/- and purchase tax an eye-watering £158 16/8
I guess the Treasury really needed the 8d


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## Doug71 (14 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Just spoken to Arnold Lavers.
> 
> MDF has risen 25% and going up a further 40% next month.
> Quoted £ 68 plus VAT for 1 x 22mm MR sheet.
> ...



I mentioned earlier in the thread that last week I paid £22.95 plus vat per sheet for 15mm MR MDF from Lavers, well seems a week makes a big difference! Today it was £22 plus vat for 6mm and just over £30 plus vat for 9mm! Out of curiosity I enquired about 22mm, that would be £61.50 plus vat but waiting for stock


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## D_W (14 Jul 2021)

NormanB said:


> In other news, in the USA construction lumber has seen recent price adjustment downwards.



this is predictable. The futures market here influences current spot price. When distribution of lumber and mill capacity caused a shortage of construction lumber (relatively - it was never really short, just a matter of adjusting the price upward to make sure it stayed in stock), the futures shot up assuming the mills wouldn't catch up. Timbermen in the woods saw nothing from it from what I heard - rather backwards. The mills were running reduced and they had nowhere to take logs and get paid. 

When some slack comes back to the system, then the futures gradually decline. Spot prices always go up quickly when futures go up, but they decline more slowly when futures drop and the bottom doesn't usually come out of the futures market right away unless there's suddenly a huge surplus. 

Some of the pressure treated deck parts here (neighbor is repairing parts of his deck) halved in the last month or so. Except they halved in one local box store and not the other (neighbor flips houses and has a commercial account at the store that didn't drop - he was not happy).


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## D_W (14 Jul 2021)

(OSB was extremely high here, too - approaching good quality domestic hardwood ply prices in some cases. Not sure where it is now, but $22 sheets became $56 over a short span).


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## mikej460 (14 Jul 2021)

So, not a good time to be building a new workshop then...


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## D_W (14 Jul 2021)

Probably be great in a year. Especially if interest rates rise and you're buying cash.


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## mikej460 (14 Jul 2021)

Makes me wonder how much timber and OSB is on the Evergreen. I've just checked prices of 4.8m lengths of 100mm x 47mm treated (studwork) against my budget and it's gone from £11.35 to £24.91 but 11mm OSB is only £2 a sheet dearer, unless for some reason I budgeted for 18mm


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## Jonm (14 Jul 2021)

fhsa said:


> Just looked up the receipt for when my Dad bought his mini in 1960. List price ex-works £378 10/- and purchase tax an eye-watering £158 16/8
> I guess the Treasury really needed the 8d


Very interesting information.

That is 42% Tax, but there was no tax on servicing or repairs or insurance. In 1960 cars were very much a luxury item and attracted a high rate of purchase tax. 

The current situation, (as I understand it) is that 20% vat is paid on new cars, car repairs and car servicing. If the car is sold through a dealer then 20% vat on dealer markup is paid. There is also a tax on insurance (IPT) of 12%.

Difficult to compare the two Systems and total tax take per vehicle. I suspect that overall there is not much difference.


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## Adam W. (14 Jul 2021)

100% tax on cars here in Denmark and you lot think you're over taxed. It's the land where you can buy a house cheaper than a car !

The health service is very good though, so it's worth it.


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## Jonm (14 Jul 2021)

J-G said:


> Nearly correct - it was between July '74 & June *'79 *- I was having difficulty remembering there ever being a 25% rate but now I've done the research I ought to have done earlier  !! (All my past comments are from memory) I recall that the STANDARD rate was never 25%, this was the 'Higher rate' which existed for the 5 years when the Standard Rate was 8% -- and even that was cut to 12½% -- I've never sold petrol or 'luxury goods' so the fact had not been retained, though undoubtedly I was aware of it at the time -- it was 40+ years ago after-all
> 
> During that 5 year period I was selling DIY goods from 2 high street shops in Coventry.


True there were two rates between July 74 and June 79. An 8% lower rate and a higher rate which varied between 12.5% and 25%.

Between Nov 74 and April 76 the rate was 25%, for the other periods it was 12.5%. So I cannot see much wrong with my statement “Between 1974 and 1976 the rates were 8% and 25%”.


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## J-G (15 Jul 2021)

Jonm said:


> True there were two rates between July 74 and June 79. An 8% lower rate and a higher rate which varied between 12.5% and 25%.
> 
> Between Nov 74 and April 76 the rate was 25%, for the other periods it was 12.5%. So I cannot see much wrong with my statement “Between 1974 and 1976 the rates were 8% and 25%”.


I need another slice of humble pie! - even though I did some research it wasn't enough 

I have now found a definitive source and of course you are correct.

What is also interesting to discover is that the threshold turnover demanding VAT Registration is nearly 60% higher than it ought to be. According to on-line inflation calculators, the £5,000 threshold that was the initial figure (1973) is now worth £53,582 whereas today's registration threshold is £85k. I have to presume that this is down to the cost of administration. 

In 2000 I had a turnover of £185k so well above the threshold but, being semi-retired, last year's T/O was sub £6k - but I still retain my registration getting a rebate about every other quarter


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2021)

mikej460 said:


> So, not a good time to be building a new workshop then...


No. Mine's knocked on the head til next year.


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## Jonm (15 Jul 2021)

J-G said:


> I need another slice of humble pie! - even though I did some research it wasn't enough
> 
> I have now found a definitive source and of course you are correct.
> 
> ...


I think we are both being a bit nit picky, I suppose it comes from being practical where details matter. I this case, “there was a dual Vat rate of 8% and 25% sometime in the 1970,s” would be near enough. 

At the time I thought that the 25% rate was excessive. Looking back, with our current standard 20% vat on virtually everything, it seems that 25% on luxury items was very moderate, given that most things were 8% rated.


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## Thingybob (16 Jul 2021)

Son just rang he was buying his 18mm mdf from b n q two weeks ago at £26 this week £37 antique furniture can now be bought from ikea imagine what an investment that will be in 100 years from now


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## Jameshow (16 Jul 2021)

Cls 3x2 £5.50 at Wickes today! 

I was hoping we might build a men's shed but looking at the prices a portakabin would be much cheaper. 

Cheers James


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## deema (16 Jul 2021)

Average Beer. Price. £6.57 / litre 
Starbucks vente latte £4.75 / litre
unleaded petrol £1.32 / litre
Coke Cola £1 / litre (Sainsbury’)


Makes you think!


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Cls 3x2 £5.50 at Wickes today!
> 
> I was hoping we might build a men's shed but looking at the prices a portakabin would be much cheaper.
> 
> Cheers James


I bought 2 x 2.4m a few weeks ago - just short of £25. My new shed is on hold.


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## hairy (17 Jul 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Cls 3x2 £5.50 at Wickes today!
> 
> I was hoping we might build a men's shed but looking at the prices a portakabin would be much cheaper.
> 
> Cheers James


 Further from what I said earlier about shipping costs from China, that also means that the cost of buying a shipping ontainer has almost doubled too.


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## Jonm (17 Jul 2021)

deema said:


> Average Beer. Price. £6.57 / litre
> Starbucks vente latte £4.75 / litre
> unleaded petrol £1.32 / litre
> Coke Cola £1 / litre (Sainsbury’)
> ...


Very good point. If the tax is taken out, using your original figures, that becomes 
Average Beer. Price. £4..67/ litre (80p duty plus vat)
Starbucks vente latte £3.96/ litre (VAT)
unleaded petrol £0.53/ litre (RAC figures, 60% tax take)
Coke Cola £0.83 / litre (Sainsbury’) (vat)

With coke, not sure about sugar tax, some places say none because sugar is not added or none if it is diet.

Of course pubs and cafes provide a service, somewhere to sit, heating etc. There are also other non vat taxes like rates to pay.

Coca Cola has all that marketing, advertising and packaging to pay.

Petrol is different, exploration in difficult and remote areas, like under the sea or Alaska, extraction and transport from these areas, refining etc, all with a dangerous and explosive product.

Water is less than 1p per litre, or free if you collect it off your roof.

So price is more or less in inverse proportion to importance. We have just survived with pubs and cafes shut, Impossible without water and currently virtually impossible without fossil fuels.

A bit like paying top footballers and actors a fortune and little to essential workers, nurses, shop assistants, sewage maintenance etc. As a shop assistant said during lock down “ I did not know I was an essential worker”.


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## RobinBHM (17 Jul 2021)

I spoke to a sheet material supplier yesterday.

he said Medite are increasing their MDF prices by 40% in August.

and he quoted my £78+vat for 18mm birch ply ( up from £49+vat a few months back.


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## Distinterior (17 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> ....he said Medite are increasing their MDF prices by 40% in August.....



I spoke to a mate of mine yesterday who has a CNC business, and he told me his supplier of Medite had told him that exact percentage as well....!!


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## isaac3d (17 Jul 2021)

highwood122 said:


> on the timbercut website uk. american cherry is the same price as black walnut. how do you account for that. some people might suggest it is a case of "catch as catch can"


I just checked the timbercut4u uk website and american cherry is about half the price of american black walnut


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## RobinBHM (17 Jul 2021)

Distinterior said:


> I spoke to a mate of mine yesterday who has a CNC business, and he told me his supplier of Medite had told him that exact percentage as well....!!



I had wondered if it was BS, but as you’ve heard the same figure its sounding more like the truth.


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## hairy (18 Jul 2021)

Looking in the local Tescos and Coop you cannot buy a cordial or soft drink that doesn't have either sucralose or aspartane.
Wikipedia says aspartane is one of the most tested foods, and that it and sucralose are totally safe. Yet there are plenty of people badly affected by both.
Low or no sugar just means you will have chemicals instead. 
They may actually be worse for you though? My wife suffered badly with aspartane until discovering how widespread bad effects can be, and has just recently found the same with sucralose.
I'll stick to sugar even if it does cost more, just not a lot of it.
I've never tried MDF in my tea though so can't comment on that.


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## Noel (18 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I had wondered if it was BS, but as you’ve heard the same figure its sounding more like the truth.



Told last month by the two yards I use that all sheet products (OSB, ply, MDF etc) up by 40% In July. Imagine solid wood will follow suit.


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## Jake (18 Jul 2021)




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## Jake (18 Jul 2021)

/\ It can't catch a bid at the moment. 

I know different market, and sheet materials have other issues etc. But still.


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## Rorschach (18 Jul 2021)

The houses prices here have increased so much that not only have our savings efforts this last year been pointless, we are actually worse off than we were 18 months ago.


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## Thingybob (18 Jul 2021)

deema said:


> Average Beer. Price. £6.57 / litre
> Starbucks vente latte £4.75 / litre
> unleaded petrol £1.32 / litre
> Coke Cola £1 / litre (Sainsbury’)
> ...


So if i can put coke cola in a battery case i could be on to cheap clean fuel


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## gog64 (18 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I spoke to a sheet material supplier yesterday.
> 
> he said Medite are increasing their MDF prices by 40% in August.
> 
> and he quoted my £78+vat for 18mm birch ply ( up from £49+vat a few months back.



Thanks for the heads up, time to stock up next week I think!


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## ivan (19 Jul 2021)

Get your Coke in Aldi, currently 42p for 2 litres, tastes better than Sainsbury and as good as the real thing. Lidl's coke is not so good at all. All Aldi own brand is very good, often better than the brand - Which? tested. SAves us around 30 quid a week!


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## D_W (19 Jul 2021)

hairy said:


> Further from what I said earlier about shipping costs from China, that also means that the cost of buying a shipping ontainer has almost doubled too.



Hopefully that's temporary, unless you're talking about buying the ones that are no longer fit for seagoing service. 

There are lots of folks here in the states using old containers as storage, and they got spoiled being able to buy the ones that were worn out. When the port slowdown occurred due to covid (ships backing up, filled with tied up containers), the ability to get excess containers went away all at once. There should be a bounce back when everything loosens up again.


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## Nick Laguna UK (19 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> Told last month by the two yards I use that all sheet products (OSB, ply, MDF etc) up by 40% In July. Imagine solid wood will follow suit.


Hi Noel, I hope you and yours are well over there fella.
One of my customers in Norn Iron will now only guarantee quotes on materials for 7 days....
I wouldn't like to be a builder costing/quoting up a job that's for sure.
Shipping prices are still crazy - $18,000 for a 40ft last week - 20ft no longer viable for some companies either as what used to cost 50% of a 40ft in a 20 footer is now closer to 80%
When the cost of shipping exceed the cost of stock inside it's game over - people will only pay so much - companies know this & I know people have cancelled.
Stay well mate.
Nick


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## Noel (19 Jul 2021)

Nick Laguna UK said:


> Hi Noel, I hope you and yours are well over there fella.
> One of my customers in Norn Iron will now only guarantee quotes on materials for 7 days....
> I wouldn't like to be a builder costing/quoting up a job that's for sure.
> Shipping prices are still crazy - $18,000 for a 40ft last week - 20ft no longer viable for some companies either as what used to cost 50% of a 40ft in a 20 footer is now closer to 80%
> ...



Yep, all good Nick.
All a bit mad ATM. What used to cost me £2,200 to ship to NZ is now nearer 4 grand and that's on deck, no box. No real reason other than profiteering: boxes have tripled/quadrupled (or more) so folk will expect all prices to have increased.......
Feel sorry for the consolidated customers, £5k of goods stuffed in the back of a box that used to cost 7/800 in now nearly half the cost of the load. Add that to the increased customs/stevedore/dockside charges it's hardly worth it, as you say.

You set up for the UK/NI make mark replacing CE?


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## Nick Laguna UK (19 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> You set up for the UK/NI make mark replacing CE?



Glad all is good Noel - we all fully agree with your view of a big element of 'profiteering' from the shipping companies who are almost a cartel.

Yeah, to be honest they are not making it easy with UKNI certification, I will chat with directors tomorrow to double check, but they are normally pretty spot on the ball with issues like this. Thanks for heads up anyway.

Cheers & enjoy the sun,
Nick


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## Concizat (20 Jul 2021)

ivan said:


> Get your Coke in Aldi, currently 42p for 2 litres, tastes better than Sainsbury and as good as the real thing. Lidl's coke is not so good at all. All Aldi own brand is very good, often better than the brand - Which? tested. SAves us around 30 quid a week!


That's a lot of Coke


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## doctor Bob (20 Jul 2021)

I've just ordered £5000 of MDF, mental. 
I think lots are stocking up, causing shortages.


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## clogs (20 Jul 2021)

my ol dad said when prices get to high stop buying......
if we all stopped buying ply etc for 6 months the prices would come down.....??
slightlydif.....
our last summer in France we noted that small toms were almost €12 per kilo and not even vine grown ones....
Most didn't buy and they got binned.....
luckily for us home grown toms are avail from April....now we actually bin toms as wqe have to many and can't give em away as EVERYBODY has too many....what a mad world.....

Last time I checked here, 1/2 ply no better than shuttering was over €65 per sheet + Tax....


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## D_W (20 Jul 2021)

clogs said:


> my ol dad said when prices get to high stop buying......
> if we all stopped buying ply etc for 6 months the prices would come down.....??
> slightlydif.....
> our last summer in France we noted that small toms were almost €12 per kilo and not even vine grown ones....
> ...



This is a case where ceasing buying would cause them to come down very quickly as the futures for supply here are way down, but the spot market isn't following them yet (spot wholesale is, i'm sure, but retailers are harvesting the margin for now while they can get away with it). 

Businesses here will generally increase the spot goods to match futures prices, but they will cling to the spot market any time it's higher even if they have no need to, and then hold on yet a bit longer when spot and futures are both down on the claim that they have to recover inventory cost. They'll say this about goods that they have that are low turnover that weren't changed or refreshed during an entire cycle, too, which is interesting (e.g., a bin of specialty or millwork wood parts that turns over once a year or two but is high margin). 

The trip back down leads to interesting things - especially if the timing of the price declines isn't matched. For example, rough construction lumber here is more expensive than some finished or treated products of the same type. I suspect the retailers choose which items they think they can snag you on (OSB/plywood/2x4s here) vs. others that don't sell well when bought for cash projects (outdoor wood bits). Or to be more clear, the interior supplies are more often being used on something where someone is taking a loan - renovations, etc, contractor work.


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## D_W (20 Jul 2021)

Speaking of taking advantage - and the loan thing. It's always fun to burst the bubble of people who come over and talk of the cost of adding "the soft close option" to stuff in the kitchen (I built my cabinets).

That's another good example of things that are expensive when they can just be rolled into a loan, but people would look a little harder if they were paying cash.

"yeah, it's almost $4 a cabinet more for the soft close hinges if the hinges are made in western europe and not just whatever cheap junk home depot is carrying at the time"


"WWHHHHAATTT? we paid $3k extra for soft close!!!"

"do you have 100 heavy soft close drawers? that could be close to $3k extra for the soft close slides". 

"NO!! we don't!"


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## doctor Bob (20 Jul 2021)

clogs said:


> my ol dad said when prices get to high stop buying......
> if we all stopped buying ply etc for 6 months the prices would come down.....??



Problem is business can't stop and they far out buy the hobby people.


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## sploo (20 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I've just ordered £5000 of MDF, mental.


Just the two sheets then?


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## Spectric (20 Jul 2021)

But at what point will the price rises start to make customers wait and delay having things on their wish list. Yes many businesses can swallow some of the increase but that just eats into your profit margins, but then I suppose so long as you make something so you are keeping the company going along with the workforce and their skills then it is just a case of riding the storm until things settle down.


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## andys wood shed (20 Jul 2021)

I’m now more concerned about being broken into and having my timber stock stolen than my tools


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## D_W (20 Jul 2021)

andys wood shed said:


> I’m now more concerned about being broken into and having my timber stock stolen than my tools



It would definitely be a bad time to leave a nicely stickered pile outside just waiting to be stored in the next several days. 

And it wouldn't be the average citizen snagging the goods, but rather a roving contractor. 

Something similar became common here with lawn service folks (stealing leaf blowers and string trimmers off of service trucks with keys left in them and not stealing the trucks). It's now uncommon to see a lawn service truck that doesn't have locking holders for ancillary equipment.


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## D_W (20 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> But at what point will the price rises start to make customers wait and delay having things on their wish list. Yes many businesses can swallow some of the increase but that just eats into your profit margins, but then I suppose so long as you make something so you are keeping the company going along with the workforce and their skills then it is just a case of riding the storm until things settle down.



It's already happening here, but with the low interest rates, house prices have gone bonkers. My house's value has gone up 25% in the last two years, which may sound like nothing to someone in England, but there are no zoning restrictions here and my house is no prize. When I bought it, it was 2x my income. I have "leveled up" at work three times and now it's still 2x my income, which is horrifying. 

Point of that being while contractors have jacked up their estimates sometimes 50% to slow down calls (but they're still fully subscribed), the increase in home equity and cheap rates has people taking additional loans to have their houses modified. They only care about their monthly payment so the cost of the work goes up further. 

Example - BIL has a very nice house, but the person who had it built left the garage option standard. It literally allows one foot in front and one behind a minivan, and about 10 inches of room for each mirror when backing out. He's got three kids and wants room for more than just two cars, so he got a quote two years ago to have the garage extended and the top finished out into an additional bedroom. His bid (this is just frame and siding) two years ago was about $60k. He knows nothing about building, but insisted it should be under 50k. Through misunderstanding of the birds and the bees, his mrs. just had another baby. Now it's go-time - space needed. Three bids this year. All well over $100k. The contractors are just too busy. If the equity can almost double the bids for relatively routine work in two years, there's still plenty of room to buy wood.


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## Jameshow (20 Jul 2021)

Yeap with builders booked up over a year in advance timber prices will remain high as the clients will simply have to pay the prices that the builders demand or they loose their build slot.... 

Cheers James


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## RobinBHM (20 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Problem is business can't stop and they far out buy the hobby people.


Sheet material in a kitchen probably only amounts to £1k on a £30k kitchen….so paying another £30 a sheet is of no consequence really.


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## D_W (20 Jul 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Yeap with builders booked up over a year in advance timber prices will remain high as the clients will simply have to pay the prices that the builders demand or they loose their build slot....
> 
> Cheers James



An interest rate rise would probably solve it all at once, because the entire market cohort relying on increased house prices would drop out at once. At least in the states, that's the case. 

If the banks are less savvy there about offering to roll an old loan, other debt and more bits added onto the house into one, I'd be surprised (especially with the appreciation in value that's occurred there in the last 20 years).


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Jul 2021)

An interest rate rise would probably solve it all at once ...

The bank my wife works for (an upmarket one - few of their customers are only £millionaires) has been warned to expect negative interest rates.


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## doctor Bob (20 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Sheet material in a kitchen probably only amounts to £1k on a £30k kitchen….so paying another £30 a sheet is of no consequence really.



It's not £30 a sheet, it's an increase of up to £60 a sheet, plus timber increase, hardware, it's proper mental, overall probably averaging 50% more on material costs and still rising.


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## Spectric (20 Jul 2021)

Having spent five grand on MDF and probably being a known customer with a record for spending did you not get a good deal or special price, or would it be a case of you did and it was still 50% up even to you? Also was it bog standard or medite / moisture resistant.


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## D_W (20 Jul 2021)

When the price is futures and wholesale contracts, and the underlying wholesale prices triple, there's no deals to be had. 2x4s here went from $3 to $8. The market for whitewood went up something like 4 to 6 fold at one point because there was supply constriction and then traders got in on it. 

the positive thing about the futures market is that when a supply constriction is seen coming, producers can lock in a counterparty and invest and try to increase supply. The negative thing about it is that it's subject to speculators who will be unreasonable counterparties. I'm sure some traders have lost a ton trying to get in on the run up (the futures here are now lower than they were before the runup)


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## D_W (20 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Sheet material in a kitchen probably only amounts to £1k on a £30k kitchen….so paying another £30 a sheet is of no consequence really.



to make cabinets for a relatively small kitchen, I used 2A faced cherry ply and used 13 sheets. that's for 10 cabinets. I'd consider 20 cabinets to be a large kitchen or a medium large kitchen with an island. 10 years ago, the ply cost was $1400 ($100 a sheet - ended up with an extra one). 

While those sheets may not go along with the install, they're in the cabinets (and the cabinets will be marked up for the sheet cost plus margin. Nobody is going to add $1000 to the cost, tie up capital, customer support, etc, and increase the price of something by that. It probably increased the cost of kitchen cabinets on the spot market by several thousand dollars for a kitchen. 

But counter to that is the crazy run up - a 2 floor house here with three rooms downstairs and four up and only about 1600 square feet total is $400k now. 10 years ago, the same house would've been $230k or so. So the folks who live on loans their whole life will be glad to see the opportunity to borrow against appraisal and if a $30k kitchen job goes to $40k, they will probably still do it. 

if they're working from home and think they need another room and the house equity is up +$100k, a builder and bank will tell them that the equity will go up another $70k for a $100k room add on project, and they'll do that, too.


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## doctor Bob (20 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Having spent five grand on MDF and probably being a known customer with a record for spending did you not get a good deal or special price, or would it be a case of you did and it was still 50% up even to you? Also was it bog standard or medite / moisture resistant.



Yes I get good prices but still mental compared with a year ago. close double on all boards and still a 40% rise on aug 1st.


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## Spectric (20 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> But counter to that is the crazy run up - a 2 floor house here with three rooms downstairs and four up and only about 1600 square feet total is $400k now. 10 years ago, the same house would've been $230k or so.


But who is benefitting, the only people really affected are those trying to get onto the property ladder, or gaining a property through inheritance. If you class the property as your home then does it really mater what it is worth. In the UK many who live a distance from, find London strange. Here you can pay 500K for an ex council flat, you live in a dirty overcrowded city with plenty of congestion and some earn good money but many don't so why suffer it when you could live in a nicer area, earn less but less mortage and potentially live longer. There has recently been a court case where pollution in London was attributed to a young girls death Air pollution: Coroner calls for law change after Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah's death.


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## RobinBHM (21 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> It's not £30 a sheet, it's an increase of up to £60 a sheet, plus timber increase, hardware, it's proper mental, overall probably averaging 50% more on material costs and still rising.


That’s a fair point - Insuppose all materials are going up in price.

if it was mostly just sheets, £60 increase is £1200 extra on a kitchen - it’s a fair amount but its not enough to kill a job


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## Keith Cocker (21 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> When the price is futures and wholesale contracts, and the underlying wholesale prices triple, there's no deals to be had. 2x4s here went from $3 to $8. The market for whitewood went up something like 4 to 6 fold at one point because there was supply constriction and then traders got in on it.
> 
> the positive thing about the futures market is that when a supply constriction is seen coming, producers can lock in a counterparty and invest and try to increase supply. The negative thing about it is that it's subject to speculators who will be unreasonable counterparties. I'm sure some traders have lost a ton trying to get in on the run up (the futures here are now lower than they were before the runup)



Isn’t modern Capitalism a hoot!!!


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jul 2021)

A better hoot than modern communism.


----------



## ScottandSargeant (21 Jul 2021)

hairy said:


> I was told the price of getting a shipping container to the UK from China has gone from 3_4£K to 10K.
> Cement was about £6 a waterproof bag last year for me to almost twice that now. Nearest B&Q to me is limiting them to two per customer so I'm told. A strainer fence post was about £23 last year to £40 now.


SCM increased prices on some of their Minimax mobile dust extractors by 25% yesterday. Sedgwick have just reprised all their machines … up 10-15% from June. Another one of our suppliers tells us that steel is up 102%, aluminium 70% copper 78% and container costs through the roof. One of our clients in Essex told me mdf has increased 145% since lockdown 1. I think Inflation is going to be more than 2.5% the government reports.


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## Jameshow (21 Jul 2021)

Now we have outsourced every thing apart from a service and hospitality sector apart from high end engineering and Motorsport we are now at the mercy of China and the shipping companies all of whom are rubbing thier hands at the monopoly of supply they have over us. Simplistic I know but we made the bed and now we sleep in it. 

Cheers James


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jul 2021)

We would be at their mercy regardless - they ship the raw materials.


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## highwood122 (21 Jul 2021)

isaac3d said:


> I just checked the timbercut4u uk website and american cherry is about half the price of american black walnut


sorry my mistake just read the "from" price


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## Rorschach (21 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Sheet material in a kitchen probably only amounts to £1k on a £30k kitchen….so paying another £30 a sheet is of no consequence really.



30k kitchen


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## Terry - Somerset (21 Jul 2021)

Abutting one side of a path from my house into town are the gardens of about 8 houses. 2 years ago their boundaries were a mixture of hedges and somewhat decrepit fences.

Last night as I wandered down to a meeting I noticed they had all been replaced by new fencing - all of which I would describe as upper-mid range (not top) quality.

I have also had some work done around the house over the last year - UPVC fascias, bathroom, drains, (and a fence). Tradespeople I talk to are booked for months ahead and will not take on new large jobs for up to a year.

Lockdown seems to have massively increased demand for both materials and labour as a lot (not all) folk confined at home have (a) realised the work that needs doing, and (b) saved significant amounts through being unable to spend as normal

It is no surprise that increased demand for home improvements, increased savings through lockdown, and covid disrupted supply chains has lead to major price increases. The real question is whether (and when) prices will soften and return to more "normal" proportions. 

Having replaced all those fences, bathrooms, home office conversions etc etc which should last 10+ years, I may expect demand to fall for the next few.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> Isn’t modern Capitalism a hoot!!!


well, without it, we have empty racks instead, or supply being diverted to friends of government cronies.


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## Lonsdale73 (21 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> With everyone in lockdown the gas/electric use increased dramatically.
> People used to the heating provided free at work, thought it ok to have the same at home.
> Then the bills come in and many cannot afford it.



Didn't the start of the pan(dem)ic coincide with unseasonably high temperatures? I know my facebook feed was flooded with photos of people taking advantage of the furlough to soak up the sun and drink copious amounts of alcohol as if they were on a club 18-30+ holiday. Any extra drain to electricity would have been from running hot tubs.


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## MadMental (21 Jul 2021)

Whats a tom?


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## doctor Bob (21 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> 30k kitchen



Starting from


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## Rorschach (21 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Starting from



That's about a 3rd of the value of the flat I live in.


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## doctor Bob (21 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> That's about a 3rd of the value of the flat I live in.


We have done a few over the value of your flat then.


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## Rorschach (21 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> We have done a few over the value of your flat then.



Quite possibly, I think you mentioned the size of a kitchen on here once and it was bigger than my flat and possibly it's small garden too.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> 30k kitchen



convert to dollars and that's probably typical here. Imagine you have appliances (those will look out of place, must change for new kitchen), countertops (even if they're granite from 20 years ago now, that's out of date -quartz is the thing and it's been the in thing now for a strong fraction of the decade, so it's only got another 5 or 10 years before it's not the in thing. Cabinets, if they're actually wood, figure $8k at wholesale (they'll be marked at a whole lot more than that in the bill, but the contractor does get to deal with them if something isn't right, and they probably have office staff to cover with the markups, or at least one office person who does estimates and orders most of the time). 

Add other hardware, lighting, floors, wall (backsplash, etc) electrical upgrades. 

$60k to $100k in larger houses isn't uncommon, especially if they level up on the materials and start going for things like viking or thermador appliances (the appliances can hit $30k on their own - and they'll be less reliable than most of the low end consumer stuff, which is something manufacturers can't afford to screw up or they'll go out of business). 

I did my own kitchen, no real remodeling, just new cabinets, wall tin, floor, lights (I made the cabinets) and countertops (I fabricated them) and I think it was still close to $8k, just for materials - my cost. It's not that large, either. 

That's where the magic of increased equity and rolling it into the loan comes in. "I can't afford $50k, but I can afford $300 a month".


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## Rorschach (21 Jul 2021)

Our kitchen cost about a grand, no appliances, we couldn't afford new ones. I did a good bit of the fitting myself but had to pay someone to do various tricky bits like mitre joints on the counters etc.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

There's a garage guy I listen to from time to time (he's a good proxy for the lumber market, because he's making freestanding garages in a rural area where you can't just charge the moon). Materials can make a job of his unprofitable at once. 

He showed a chart a few days ago (I just got the video recommended today - i wonder if google's ad algorithms are keylogging me! probably). white wood was around $400 for a thousand board feet before the run up. It went as high as $1700 (and a $2.75 2x4 for him was as high as $8.25), and is now somewhere around $400 again for futures. So, there's no drive at this point in the US for materials costs to stay high - it's just a matter of how long retailers and wholesalers and try to keep the spot and retail market high without any real support (and they're expert at doing it for a while without answering the question why). 

That fellow is what folks here would call an old timer - he stores a large lead value in inventory instead of operating with short leads to "maximize capital productivity".


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Our kitchen cost about a grand, no appliances, we couldn't afford new ones. I did a good bit of the fitting myself but had to pay someone to do various tricky bits like mitre joints on the counters etc.



I didn't replace appliances, either. Mine were 15 years old with the exception of a dishwasher purchased a year prior to match the others. Even with modest appliances, it would've been another $4-$5k just to have new things. I asked my wife who she wanted to buy appliances for - her, or for her friends to see. that didn't go over well, but I just didn't buy new appliances in the end and got away with it.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

(separate - if you're someone who doesn't care that much what other people think, when you get into $100k plus kitchens, you're dealing with people who are pretty fragile, or perhaps they're so big on themselves that they think it's a positive thing and they're going to win the contest of whose kitchen looks best if we take pictures. 

An example of this - an acquaintance is a partner attorney here. Her husband worked a rank and file job. She became embarrassed about it so they strategized that he would run a small business. The business operates at a loss that she has to supplement so that it can stay open, but it's OK to her because she doesn't have to cavort with other attorneys and then admit that her husband is an unskilled hourly worker. I told her she'd have been better off making it like a dirty fetish thing - liking certain types of guys and not the attorney or white collar type, but she wasn't brave enough to do that. She can now just say that her husband owns and runs a business.


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## Trainee neophyte (21 Jul 2021)

I bought some wood today. I may not do it again.

4 metre length of 75mm x150mm pine €35. It was €18 a couple of months ago. I'm off to the forest with a chainsaw, before everyone else catches on.


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## doctor Bob (21 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> if you're someone who doesn't care that much what other people think, when you get into $100k plus kitchens, you're dealing with people who are pretty fragile, or perhaps they're so big on themselves that they think it's a positive thing and they're going to win the contest of whose kitchen looks best if we take pictures.



utter tosh.
Just because your a miser doesn't mean others have to be.

I have a nice house, I like my house, I don't want a small house, I like a big house. I have 7 toilets for 2 people, I don't care what people think of me, I walk around like a tramp, so I'm not showing off my house or me, I just like a big house. Some people like a nice kitchen.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jul 2021)

I like a big house. I have 7 toilets for 2 people, I don't care what people think of me ...

You are Prince Harry and I claim my £5.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> utter tosh.
> Just because your a miser doesn't mean others have to be.
> 
> I have a nice house, I like my house, I don't want a small house, I like a big house. I have 7 toilets for 2 people, I don't care what people think of me, I walk around like a tramp, so I'm not showing off my house or me, I just like a big house. Some people like a nice kitchen.



No statement is all-inclusive, you could be the exception. But many would have drastically different houses if nobody could ever see what they live in and they couldn't share pictures of it or talk about it. 

My mother's got a large house (she and my dad are of means even though they think they're not) and 5 acres of landscaped property. They spend mid 4 figures every year for arborists to faff with the trees (not ornamentals, but 100 foot tall widow makers), and add to that pretty much anything else that needs care. they would be at the low end of concern with what other people think about them, but their parents drove into them when they were young that people who made it have large houses. 

You may be the exception. Most others wouldn't be. I even once in a while catch my parents getting overly proud about their property because they think other people like it more than they do (except if someone doesn't care, then they aren't bothered).


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## Jameshow (21 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> (separate - if you're someone who doesn't care that much what other people think, when you get into $100k plus kitchens, you're dealing with people who are pretty fragile, or perhaps they're so big on themselves that they think it's a positive thing and they're going to win the contest of whose kitchen looks best if we take pictures.
> 
> An example of this - an acquaintance is a partner attorney here. Her husband worked a rank and file job. She became embarrassed about it so they strategized that he would run a small business. The business operates at a loss that she has to supplement so that it can stay open, but it's OK to her because she doesn't have to cavort with other attorneys and then admit that her husband is an unskilled hourly worker. I told her she'd have been better off making it like a dirty fetish thing - liking certain types of guys and not the attorney or white collar type, but she wasn't brave enough to do that. She can now just say that her husband owns and runs a business.



Talking about me on a public forum is a bit rude D_W...!

My chaps have got sussed - the groups I run are for my personal therapy! 

One chap commented how many hours community service did I have left! 

Cheers James


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## dangles (21 Jul 2021)

What does a " toilet for 2 people" look like?


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## Jameshow (21 Jul 2021)

I often say money cannot bring happiness but it can prevent hardship. 

Cheers James


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

dangles said:


> What does a " toilet for 2 people" look like?



Most of us have no such things (they sound awkward - especially if there's no divider or noise cancellation headphones), but the good doctor's got 7 of them!

(which sounds like 14 bowls total).


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## Droogs (21 Jul 2021)

dangles said:


> What does a " toilet for 2 people" look like?


His and hers, guess which is which


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## Trainee neophyte (21 Jul 2021)

dangles said:


> What does a " toilet for 2 people" look like?


Well, the farmhouse I grew up in had indoor plumbing put in in the late 60's, and it still had the original thunderbox in the outdoor shed. Said thunderbox had a bench with two drop shot holes with lids - his and hers, obviously. It's always nice to have company for those moving experiences. 

Underneath the bench was an open ditch that drained out through the walled garden, and across a field, so everyone could admire your work after the event. It's my theory that this is the origin of the game "Battleships". Also pooh sticks.


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## dangles (21 Jul 2021)

Would it be a bigger version of this


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## Chippyjoe (21 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> There's a garage guy I listen to from time to time (he's a good proxy for the lumber market, because he's making freestanding garages in a rural area where you can't just charge the moon). Materials can make a job of his unprofitable at once.
> 
> He showed a chart a few days ago (I just got the video recommended today - i wonder if google's ad algorithms are keylogging me! probably). white wood was around $400 for a thousand board feet before the run up. It went as high as $1700 (and a $2.75 2x4 for him was as high as $8.25), and is now somewhere around $400 again for futures. So, there's no drive at this point in the US for materials costs to stay high - it's just a matter of how long retailers and wholesalers and try to keep the spot and retail market high without any real support (and they're expert at doing it for a while without answering the question why).
> 
> That fellow is what folks here would call an old timer - he stores a large lead value in inventory instead of operating with short leads to "maximize capital productivity".




Must be Ken, I subscribe to his You Tube channel. Very nice guy and builds some really nice garages.
He said yesterday that plywood was on its way down as is some lumber.
Hopefully it will follow on here................................

Mark.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

Chippyjoe said:


> Must be Ken, I subscribe to his You Tube channel. Very nice guy and builds some really nice garages.
> He said yesterday that plywood was on its way down as is some lumber.
> Hopefully it will follow on here................................
> 
> Mark.



That's the guy. Living where I live, I think his builds would be quoted for at least double of what he charges. He's a refreshing change from most youtubers - he builds garages, knows his stuff and has a youtube channel vs. knowing his stuff about youtube's algorithm and pretending to build garages.


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## Rorschach (21 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> utter tosh.
> Just because your a miser doesn't mean others have to be.
> 
> I have a nice house, I like my house, I don't want a small house, I like a big house. I have 7 toilets for 2 people, I don't care what people think of me, I walk around like a tramp, so I'm not showing off my house or me, I just like a big house. Some people like a nice kitchen.



I'd probably be the same if I could afford it, but I also like an easy life when it comes to maintenance etc so I wouldn't have too big a house/garden etc.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I'd probably be the same if I could afford it, but I also like an easy life when it comes to maintenance etc so I wouldn't have too big a house/garden etc.



I don't have the means for a 7 toilet house, but a 5 toilet house (but only the single kind) wouldn't be out of my means. I don't like assuming things for the future and want to retire early and leave enough behind for my kids to afford the toilets of their choice, too, though...

...but more importantly, not much happens in a house with 1500 SF above ground and another 800 dry and heated/cooled below that an average person can't fix (vs. getting stuck arranging to have someone else do it because the hassle is just too large). My father spends about 10 hours a week in the fall in his yard. That's icepick in the eye stuff to me (and the yard equipment is five figures of cost to deal with cleaning up after what the trees drop)


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## Chippyjoe (21 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> That's the guy. Living where I live, I think his builds would be quoted for at least double of what he charges. He's a refreshing change from most youtubers - he builds garages, knows his stuff and has a youtube channel vs. knowing his stuff about youtube's algorithm and pretending to build garages.



Agree completely. I must admit to being surprised at the cost of his garages, he does a first class job and correctly from what you can see from his videos but does seem cheap. That is not decrying his work because as I said it looks first class and done properly.
Also another thing that surprised me was his openness on his prices.
A refreshing change in this day and age.


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## D_W (21 Jul 2021)

Chippyjoe said:


> Agree completely. I must admit to being surprised at the cost of his garages, he does a first class job and correctly from what you can see from his videos but does seem cheap. That is not decrying his work because as I said it looks first class and done properly.
> Also another thing that surprised me was his openness on his prices.
> A refreshing change in this day and age.



He's just about as low drama as you'll ever see from someone. knows his trade, does it, doesn't act like anyone owes him anything, and speaks facts. 

Where he lives in the states is a rural area that's not close to urban sprawl (even though it's geographically in the northeast), and there's not a lot of income opportunity (population is in decline up there, etc). I checked the median household income there vs. median US and it's a little above half. Maine and VT both have areas like that - very relaxed, but shedding population each generation.


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## sploo (21 Jul 2021)

Despite all this interesting and valid discussion about rising material prices, all I can now think of is whether Bob takes a dump in a different toilet for each day of the week. Or maybe he's a spontaneous random risk taking sort of guy that always tries to make it to the one furthest away. These are important questions, and we need answers.


----------



## akirk (21 Jul 2021)

hairy said:


> Looking in the local Tescos and Coop you cannot buy a cordial or soft drink that doesn't have either sucralose or aspartane.
> Wikipedia says aspartane is one of the most tested foods, and that it and sucralose are totally safe. Yet there are plenty of people badly affected by both.
> Low or no sugar just means you will have chemicals instead.
> They may actually be worse for you though? My wife suffered badly with aspartane until discovering how widespread bad effects can be, and has just recently found the same with sucralose.
> ...


Try Cawston Press - Apple juice based fizzy drinks (also with ginger / elderflower/ rhubarb) just fruit juice and spring water…
Available in Waitrose / Asda bulk buy and possibly elsewhere…


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## doctor Bob (21 Jul 2021)

sploo said:


> Despite all this interesting and valid discussion about rising material prices, all I can now think of is whether Bob takes a dump in a different toilet for each day of the week. Or maybe he's a spontaneous random risk taking sort of guy that always tries to make it to the one furthest away. These are important questions, and we need answers.



Sploo I'm delighted you are taking an interest, strangely not a question I contemplate, however now you have made me think.
So here is the order (most used to least)

Garage/ original gym
Main bedroom ensuite
Down stairs
Guest bedroom ensuite
Main bathroom
Sons room (rarely if ever)
Garden office / gym, still a virgin toilet.


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## Spectric (21 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I have 7 toilets for 2 people,


Do you eat a lot of Indian and need a toilet close by?

When we moved up north and was looking for property we did look at a very large bungalow, big garden with stream and nicely laid out but the kitchen was a closset, good for making tea and sandwiches but not enough room to swing a dog and it's small size was just so silly in comparison to the rest of the property. Well turns out the person who built it was a property developer, and would travel to eat out or get a restaurant to deliver and did not want a big kitchen.

If you look back then once upon a time the toilet was down the garden, some trip in the middle of a dark winter, then they got nearer the house until they came inside, then they multiplied so one up and one down and now because an ensuite is fashionable it is ok to shiette in the bedroom, so next step must be rubber pants with extraction hose so you do not even have to get out of bed.


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## Jonm (21 Jul 2021)

dangles said:


> What does a " toilet for 2 people" look like?


You have jogged my memory. I recall seeing one in an outhouse. I did not use it and cannot remember the circumstances. It was almost certainly in 1961/2 when I was in Australia. It was something like the attached photograph.


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## sploo (22 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> ...so next step must be rubber pants with extraction hose so you do not even have to get out of bed.


Nah, the next step was already shown in the excellent film "Idiocracy"


----------



## Trainee neophyte (22 Jul 2021)

Given that prices are increasing across the board, better get one of these asap:

https://www.toto.com/en/neorestcollections/concept/neorest_nx/index.htm









This $11,000 Luxury Japanese Toilet Might Be the Fanciest Bathroom Gadget EVER


Want to visit the bathroom in style? This high-end Japanese toilet has you covered.




ourcommunitynow.com





Nothing like a bit of conspicuous consumption to show you are flush with success.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> ... but the kitchen was a closset, good for making tea and sandwiches but not enough room to swing a dog and it's small size was just so silly in comparison to the rest of the property. Well turns out the person who built it was a property developer, and would travel to eat out or get a restaurant to deliver and did not want a big kitchen.



A property developer who didn't have the foresight to realise he might need to sell the place.


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## NormanB (22 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> 30k kitchen


Quite.
The funny thing is as the price of the kitchen goes up to that sort of level it’s actual usage probably goes down. If you look at the average U.K. kitchen in the 1950s (which was largely before processed and convenience foods) and was actually used for cooking on devices that did not go ‘ping’ compared to these ‘£30K ‘ kitchens - which at the peak of their usage - tend to go ping.


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## Rorschach (22 Jul 2021)

NormanB said:


> Quite.
> The funny thing is as the price of the kitchen goes up to that sort of level it’s actual usage probably goes down. If you look at the average U.K. kitchen in the 1950s (which was largely before processed and convenience foods) and was actually used for cooking on devices that did not go ‘ping’ compared to these ‘£30K ‘ kitchens - which at the peak of their usage - tend to go ping.



Haha, I wonder how true that is today? My kitchen, vey cheap but gets used a lot. I wonder how much more or less a 5 or 6 figure kitchen gets used?


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## Spectric (22 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A property developer who didn't have the foresight to realise he might need to sell the place.


I think that once you have too much money and in a position where building a house is like us buying a tablesaw then you do what you want and don't care about resale, probably not a good place to be although everyone wishes it was for them, in reality it can be a bad thing.

@NormanB "The funny thing is as the price of the kitchen goes up to that sort of level it’s actual usage probably goes down. " Yes this is probably very true in some circumstances, it can become just a decorative object to admire but not use much, just some sort of status symbol to show off to your circle of colleagues. For us mere mortals the kitchen is more essential and is a functional part of the house, it may be small but it earns it's keep.


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## doctor Bob (22 Jul 2021)

NormanB said:


> Quite.
> The funny thing is as the price of the kitchen goes up to that sort of level it’s actual usage probably goes down. If you look at the average U.K. kitchen in the 1950s (which was largely before processed and convenience foods) and was actually used for cooking on devices that did not go ‘ping’ compared to these ‘£30K ‘ kitchens - which at the peak of their usage - tend to go ping.



Pure speculation and wrong. The wealthier the client the better they eat. Read it in the papers every day.
The wealthy do not buy micro meals.
As a general rule wealthy clients tend to be very fit and healthy and love cooking good food. Who do you think buys microwaveable ready burgers in buns?


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## akirk (22 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Pure speculation and wrong. The wealthier the client the better they eat. Read it in the papers every day.
> The wealthy do not buy micro meals.
> As a general rule wealthy clients tend to be very fit and healthy and love cooking good food. Who do you think buys microwaveable ready burgers in buns?


I think the implication is that wealthier folks are more likely to eat out / go to parties or events / etc. thus using their kitchens less than the poor who have no choice but to cook at home... of course the flip side is that when they are entertaining at home the kitchen is intensively used... I do know a number of families with very expensive kitchens who wouldn't dream of cooking in them - they eat out the whole time, and if they entertain they bring in caterers - definitely a London pattern though...

but while we don't fit the profile you are suggesting - I do remember those microwaveable burgers from Uni 30+ years ago - mmmm yummy


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## Blackswanwood (22 Jul 2021)

I had never really considered toilets as a measure of wealth ...

russia-police-gold-toilet-investigation-b1888537.html


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## D_W (22 Jul 2021)

akirk said:


> but while we don't fit the profile you are suggesting - I do remember those microwaveable burgers from Uni 30+ years ago - mmmm yummy



That's my recollection -that kind of stuff is for college kids and young professionals. I don't eat ramen at this point, but I remember it tasting good! When I was in college, it was about $8 for a dollar at the grocery store (this was mid 1990s) and when the meal card dollars got thin (for the college dining hall), it was a good way to stretch the card to the end of the semester. 

As far as wealthy kitchens go, I'm not sure which is a better measure of wealth - number of kitchens, or number of toilets. Probably the latter as you can get a whole lot of toilets in a pretty mundane house. I've got three in a fairly small house (which is nice when two people want to line up the Norden sight at the same time). 

Most of our friends have two kitchens (We have one - we are poor compared to them - we use it - it's a thing of mine that if you spend money on something, you must use it or you're a poser. Not my rule for other people, it's just a personal thing). Some have three and an outdoor (three fully functional with water, fridge, cooking facilities, etc). How do you easily get four total? Well, if you build one outside, you have one main kitchen in the house, one in the basement near the theater room for food prep and one usually in a section of the house that's potentially the inlaw area down the road - a living room, bathroom, kitchen and small dining room area with separate access to the walk/drive with no steps, but most of these are pretty shrewdly designed now so that they don't look like a separate walled off area unless you close them off - they just look like connected rooms). 

I don't know anyone with an inlaw suite that has its own theater room and separate basement kitchen, though - that'd be flexing. 

here's my chuckle - most of these friends have mortgages (we're in our mid 40s). We would refer to this as posing, also. Not to have a mortgage, but to be able to not have one and not be able to control yourself ("i'd rather have a mortgage than have a house only with two kitchens"). The high dollar kitchens here generally have all kinds of accessories to make sure you don't actually prep food on counters, etc (you have to pull out a hidden prep board, etc, to prevent there being any dirt at all). I find this humorous. Often seen in combination with a spouse who is too busy to take care of her own kids, but doesn't work, and too busy to clean the house (so someone else does it).


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## doctor Bob (22 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> Most of our friends have two kitchens



you're pulling my plonker now, trying to tell me some people only have one kitchen.................. not falling for that one.


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## D_W (22 Jul 2021)

If i can count the wash tub and hot plate in the basement, then I've got two!


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## akirk (22 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> Most of our friends have two kitchens (We have one - we are poor compared to them - we use it - it's a thing of mine that if you spend money on something, you must use it or you're a poser. Not my rule for other people, it's just a personal thing). Some have three and an outdoor (three fully functional with water, fridge, cooking facilities, etc). How do you easily get four total? Well, if you build one outside, you have one main kitchen in the house, one in the basement near the theater room for food prep and one usually in a section of the house that's potentially the inlaw area down the road - a living room, bathroom, kitchen and small dining room area with separate access to the walk/drive with no steps, but most of these are pretty shrewdly designed now so that they don't look like a separate walled off area unless you close them off - they just look like connected rooms).



I would say that is quite American - not very British... our over-crowded island means that houses tend to be smaller, and so most people slum it with just one kitchen - the wealthy go to Doctor Bob  the poor to Ikea... There are some exceptions - outdoor kitchens are becoming more common, and we have just plumbed in an outdoor sink with hot and cold - to use by the BBQ / for gardening etc. - but it is not an outdoor kitchen per se... I do also have friends with an estate in Scotland where the house was designed in the 1920s to run as a 5 bed house with a standard kitchen - or open up the basement / attics to give a 22 bedroom house with a full catering kitchen in the basement (on a hill, so not under-ground). However that is unusual, and while a few have prep kitchens, the majority of people would I think have just one kitchen.


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## D_W (22 Jul 2021)

Actually, I could make fun of our friends (which they could turn around and roundly beat me for making less money than them and being relatively cheaper with it on top of that...not a good way to fit in). 

But what do i mean? I grew up in a house that only had one kitchen, but it was set up with swinging doors and slide-through built in doors (chest height) so that the help could pass your food to you without you having to come in full contact with them. I guess swinging doors would've been used instead of pocket type to make sure that they were always closed (we took them out). 

It wasn't exceptionally large (just under 4k square feet) by wealthy person's standards, but it was a stone house built as a summer house for wealthy folks (picture a giant rocky hill and you can build your summer house with 16 inch thick stone walls on the south side of the hill so that it doesn't get too much sun in the summer, and when it does, the rocks moderate how fast the interior warms (it doesn't much)

Point of that setup, whoever built the house had no intention of having more than one kitchen, because if you're separating the help from the household, why in the world would they need more than one kitchen to make food for you?  

My parents weren't wealthy - more like comfortable. A summer house for wealthy people becomes a permanent house for people who are only "comfortable".


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## akirk (22 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> It wasn't exceptionally large (just under 4k square feet) by wealthy person's standards...


That is a large house - in the UK the average house size is c. 1,000sqft - and for houses built in the last c. 10 years the average size is only 80% of that at c. 800sqft
might manage two microwaves!


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## D_W (22 Jul 2021)

akirk said:


> That is a large house - in the UK the average house size is c. 1,000sqft - and for houses built in the last c. 10 years the average size is only 80% of that at c. 800sqft
> might manage two microwaves!



I also consider it large. google monster claims the median house size in the US built new and sold last year was 2,333 square feet. The average means (in my opinion) don't match that unless someone considers having a mortgage their entire working life desirable. 

Because of the distorted housing situation here, something like 3k square feet is considered nothing unusual, and often has the basement mostly finished to add more space (this makes no sense to me - that's valuable real estate for a woodworker - too valuable to be made to carpeted rooms that have nothing more than a couch and television). 

I don't know when largesse became the norm here, but it wasn't that long ago (my house was built in the 1950s and would've been more typical for median - about 1400SF before we added a little to it (the last owner had the basement made dry and semi finished).


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## StraightOffTheArk (22 Jul 2021)

sploo said:


> Probably 90% Covid, 5% backlog from Suez canal blockage, 5% Brexit. I could point out that two of the three will eventually go away, but that's risks getting people grumpy


At the risk of making people 'grumpy', I think you've under-estimated the last percentage...


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## RobinBHM (22 Jul 2021)

StraightOffTheArk said:


> At the risk of making people 'grumpy', I think you've under-estimated the last percentage...


we are all grumpy on here anyway


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## Spectric (22 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> The wealthier the client the better they eat.


Not sure that is correct in the correct sense of eating better. They will certainly eat at better restuarants, be more willing to travel to find a decent restuarant and probably do not set foot in places that sell rubbish where the packaging contains more nutrition than what has been classed as edible but when you look at how they cook al carte it may taste great but it is not healty, just watch the chefs prepare these dishes and it is large quantities of butter and lots of seasoning, read salt so maybe smaller portions that cost a lot more but not always healthy. I suppose in comparison to the very poor then yes the more money you have the more you can spend on food but maybe not always home prepared but not microwaved dishes either.


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## Spectric (22 Jul 2021)

Went out today to look at getting some landscaping materials to finish some pathways in the garden, went to a supplier who has been around years and sells the real stuff, not the cast in concrete and was suprised how empty his yard was. Well looks like MDF and wood may have been hit, but so has landscaping materials and for several reasons, some common to other products. First issue is the cost of shipping and shortage of materials in asia. The cost of a full container inc shipping has more than doubled but this could be covered by adding a tenner to each square metre, a bigger issue is that there are no containers due to a worldwide shortage and lots of empty ones that just have not be picked up as it is not cost effectice to just ship empty ones. Then there has been a very high death rate of Indians that has resulted in many quarries being closed, others were washed out in the typhoons. In the UK large amounts of aggregate are being consumed by HS2, including products that were aimed at landscaping but are being crushed to be added to concrete. As for cement, both HS2 and Hinkley are just taking everything, so much for carbon neutral.


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## doctor Bob (22 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Not sure that is correct in the correct sense of eating better. They will certainly eat at better restuarants, be more willing to travel to find a decent restuarant and probably do not set foot in places that sell rubbish where the packaging contains more nutrition than what has been classed as edible but when you look at how they cook al carte it may taste great but it is not healty, just watch the chefs prepare these dishes and it is large quantities of butter and lots of seasoning, read salt so maybe smaller portions that cost a lot more but not always healthy. I suppose in comparison to the very poor then yes the more money you have the more you can spend on food but maybe not always home prepared but not microwaved dishes either.



The wealthy are healthy these days, it's the poor who are out of shape and fat, as an average.


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## D_W (22 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> The wealthy are healthy these days, it's the poor who are out of shape and fat, as an average.



The reason for this isn't solely income, though, or means. A "poverty diet" as my grandparents would've eaten (limited meat, more beans, more vegetables, etc. - but not lots of fresh delivered leafy vegetables, more like peas/corn, etc, that are higher calorie) isn't terribly unhealthy. 

What is unhealthy is a lack of discipline and drifting toward processed carb foods and fried stuff, sweet or salty. 

It's not generally acceptable to be wealthy and tubby in the US - it looks bad. If you get so wealthy that you don't care what other people think at all, then that's different (see our last president, as well as some tycoons who love food and alcohol). 

took a vacation this year in the same place as usual ( a beach where new construction averages about $6MM). We go a little off season and much of the foot traffic at that point is residents (very small limited area is hotels - 95% is residential ). the residents are *very* well kept and keeping appearance in line is obviously important. Plenty of plastic surgery among the young ladies, too, if natural proportions aren't as kind to them as their parents' budget is.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Jul 2021)

I've been on Perranporth beach early in the morning three days this week (stunning) - I've never seen so many grossly obese people. I mean grossly obese as being probably 50% over their proper weight, not a bit on the plump side, and a disturbing amount of children.


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## Doug B (22 Jul 2021)

It’s well known that obesity is at much higher rates in poorer areas particularly in children


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## TRITON (22 Jul 2021)

Doug B said:


> It’s well known that obesity is at much higher rates in poorer areas particularly in children


This is primarily to do with cheap food being stuffed with the main preservatives, namely salt and sugar. Food manufacturers seem to be able to dictate thier ingredients away from health towards profit.


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## doctor Bob (22 Jul 2021)

I put it down to grazing and glutteny, people seem to be like cows these days. They need to learn a little bit of hunger between 2-3 main meals is not going to kill you.
The fella opposit my workshop once eat 4 papa johns pizza's on his own because they had a deal and it was better value, WTF.
Having said that I have addiction issues so maybe food is just another addiction.


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## D_W (22 Jul 2021)

Doug B said:


> I put it down to grazing and glutteny, people seem to be like cows these days. They need to learn a little bit of hunger between 2-3 main meals is not going to kill you.
> The fella opposit my workshop once eat 4 papa johns pizza's on his own because they had a deal and it was better value, WTF.
> Having said that I have addiction issues so maybe food is just another addiction.


100% accurate for here. My parents had us convinced that we were poor, but we weren't allowed to get fat (I'm a bit fat now, and my mother lives 4 hours away but when I see her, she blows her cheeks up to let me know what she thinks I look like at 5'9" and 200 pounds).

the friends of mine who were poor had no limits on what they could eat (everything in the house that was edible came in a box and was dry), and the couple of wealthy friends had no personal possession of anything bad -it was metered to them in very small amounts by the parents. On the way to a particular friend's house, I walked past a drug store on the way there and bought a small bag of 10 cent candies. When I walked through the door eating some, his mother caught me and confiscated the bag "you've probably had enough". 

The difference at that time is that I wasn't at all fat, but she wasn't having any of it. 

We were not allowed to eat between meals in general - getting candy on the run was a rare treat but my parents allowed it (eating between meals was disallowed both for fear of making fat kids and for fear that we'd waste food. This would've been 35-40 years ago. in terms of portions, four people for dinner and we never had more than a pound of meat. My wife cooks two (I'm the only tub in the house, though).


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Jul 2021)

Fundamental change in attitude over the last few decades - people now eat when they are not full, previously they ate when they were hungry.

A bit of a generality but probably true - the wealthier bits of society:

probably eat out more frequently simply because they can afford it. When they do they will tend to eat quality not cheap junk
if eating at home will tend towards quality not low price
are likely to be more informed about diet and exercise, belong to gyms and clubs, access to dieticians, doctors, trainers etc.
can afford to pay someone else to take care of the chores 
Processed food is much cheaper than buy the ingredients and cook it yourself. A little like furniture - cheaper to buy a completed kitchen (or most other furniture) from a shed than buy the wood and components and process.

Without much cash most will go for the processed option - I say"most" as it is possible to eat cheaply and well providing you have the knowledge and desire for a largely veggie existence. Fillet steak, sea bass and lobster won't play a major part in your diet despite being high quality low fat protein!

As an aside - more than one kitchen (+ basic kit in a garage/home office etc) is a pointless extravagance, largely the preserve of those more interested in status and statement. It simply creates hassle - more things to breakdown or fail, more effort to refurbish and renew at regular intervals to stay up to date with latest colour supplement trends.


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## doctor Bob (22 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Fillet steak, sea bass and lobster won't play a major part in your diet despite being high quality low fat protein!



Chicken, cheap as chips, yet tends to be eaten deep fried from KFC rather than grilled.


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## D_W (22 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Chicken, cheap as chips, yet tends to be eaten deep fried from KFC rather than grilled.


Milk and chicken are both cheap here, but they wouldn't satisfy someone who has grown used to the dopamine hit from fried or sugary foods. Frozen vegetables, beans and rice are also very inexpensive.

I checked the cdc stats and poor, but not absolute poverty makes for fat men and women. Absolute poverty makes for less fat men but high level of fat women. The income brackets stop at 350% of federal poverty line, which doesn't come close to being "affluent ", but obesity rates above that line are much lower, as are they if you sort on college graduates. None of these are surprising. Obesity in Avalon nj on the island is probably below 3%, but you can exclude areas of the town that are off the island to get only truly wealthy.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jul 2021)

TRITON said:


> This is primarily to do with cheap food being stuffed with the main preservatives, namely salt and sugar. Food manufacturers seem to be able to dictate their ingredients away from health towards profit.


If it's advertised as low fat it'll be high sugar and salt, low sugar will be high fat and salt and low salt will be high sugar and fat. They have to make cheap ingredients taste of something.


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## doctor Bob (23 Jul 2021)

people over estimate required calories and under estimate consumption.


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## Doug B (23 Jul 2021)

It doesn’t help that there are 5 times the amount of fast food outlets in poor areas than in wealthy, I guess some will say they are filling a demand but it certainly isn’t helping the situaction.


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## doctor Bob (23 Jul 2021)

Doug B said:


> It doesn’t help that there are 5 times the amount of fast food outlets in poor areas than in wealthy, I guess some will say they are filling a demand but it certainly isn’t helping the situaction.


Maybe in the city, but if you take a typical small town then we all have access to the same takeaways. Some choose to eat there 7 days a week others choose not to.

The free food at the beginning of the pandemic was a typical reaction "we got a loaf of bread and some potatoes, how is chardonnay supposed to eat that"............ well the answer is the family eats it and you buy a few treats but unfortunately some families dont want to eat bread and potatoes............


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## NormanB (23 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Pure speculation and wrong. The wealthier the client the better they eat. Read it in the papers every day.
> The wealthy do not buy micro meals.
> As a general rule wealthy clients tend to be very fit and healthy and love cooking good food. Who do you think buys microwaveable ready burgers in buns?


Thank you for your opinion.
1. I did not equate to ‘wealthy people’.
2. Don’t believe what you read in the papers.
3. In the U.K. at least the sale of processed, ready to eat meals (heated by pings) continues to grow as the ’food‘ industry claws it’s way up the value chain. This is not confined solely to a habit of the lower socio economic groups. This can be witnessed by the proportion of floor space given over to this sort of food in the UK‘ higher end supermarkets. Supermarkets are about profit/per square metre - this stuff is shifted in volume - it is not window dressing.
4. Even when you move away from ‘food’ and talk about ‘real food’ it is increasingly prepared (salad and vegetables - convenience and value chain.
5. I have witnessed what I described in family members and work colleagues (ostentatious impressive kitchens that are a triumph of form over function - well they could function - but are not used so much and the freezer (huge) and the microwave are the engine room.
6. I cannot believe the USA is that much different in this specific regard but I do of course bow to your native insight.


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## RobinBHM (23 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> people over estimate required calories and under estimate consumption.


Theres a big difference between how much processed food we consume in the UK compared to say Italy.

this country has lost its ability to cook and prepare from raw ingredients.

my wife and I do a menu for the week and order all the ingredients as needed, we waste almost nothing, it Takes more effort than ordering takeaway but it’s so much better cooking from scratch.


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## Spectric (23 Jul 2021)

TRITON said:


> This is primarily to do with cheap food being stuffed with the main preservatives, namely salt and sugar.


Not to mention god knows what other products, a lot of people don't eat the rubbish from fast food outlets because they want to, it is an addiction just like smoking, alcohol and drugs and carries it's own set of long term risk.

But like many things that are not right they eventually become the acceptable normal, those fat wobblies on the beach think they are normal, and hence why they have fat obese children. When you see documentaries showing the past you cannot but notice that the people are much lighter build, no space hoppers amongst them and if you were at school in the sixties & seventies then being honest you must remember that any kid that was remotely overweight got a very rough time, now in this modern society you cannot say boo to a goose without offending someone or some thing. Why is honesty now thought of as offensive, a statement is just that so politely mentioning that someone has gained a bit to much weight that could be unhealthy is really doing them a favour, if all they get is compiments saying how great they look then eventually they it.

Then you don't have reality, how many images of people on social media are a true image of themselves, most have been doctored so the person looks like what they think or want to be, even on our Tv's we are seeing people that have been through a bodyshop to make them to a standard that is deemed presentable. 



doctor Bob said:


> Chicken, cheap as chips, yet tends to be eaten deep fried from KFC rather than grilled.


Thats such a good point, even the most healthy food can become unhealthy due to the method of cooking, but for some reason unhealthy is addictive, people seem to like the bad rather than the good otherwise so many addictions just would not happen. To fix fat kids you need to start educating them when thy are in junior school about food, once they know the facts they may steer clear, show them what fat does to the bodies organs and take them to an abatoir at least they will have the facts.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> those fat wobblies on the beach think they are normal, and hence why they have fat obese children.



I suspect part of it is they think their fat children make them look normal - it's a genetic thing, it runs in the family - it's a glandular disorder etc. As an acquaintance, a PT instructor used to say - no one over came out of Belsen fat because of a glandular disorder.


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## thetyreman (23 Jul 2021)

most fat people are lazy, I know that's not very PC but it's true in most cases, I don't even buy stock I make my own from scratch, so much better than the rubbish you can buy in cubes.


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## D_W (23 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I suspect part of it is they think their fat children make them look normal - it's a genetic thing, it runs in the family - it's a glandular disorder etc. As an acquaintance, a PT instructor used to say - no one over came out of Belsen fat because of a glandular disorder.



"Glands" is what my tubby poorer friends would say when I was young 35 years ago. The difference between them and my wealthy friend's candy confiscating mother is when I went to their house, we'd ride atvs and play Nintendo and eat bags of cookies. It was an issue of habit there. Back then, eating mostly processed food was uncommon, but that's what they did in the house. All of the kids were fat. The mother was thin, I didn't see her eating much.


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## D_W (23 Jul 2021)

thetyreman said:


> most fat people are lazy, I know that's not very PC but it's true in most cases, I don't even buy stock I make my own from scratch, so much better than the rubbish you can buy in cubes.



I'm tubby, but also lazy. I do love stock prep, though..by hand.


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## thetyreman (23 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> I'm tubby, but also lazy. I do love stock prep, though..by hand.



ha well I meant stock for cooking  you aren't lazy at all from what I've seen.


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## Jameshow (23 Jul 2021)

I think it mainly comes down to taste, knowledge and hidden calories....

Many people are attracted to processed food because they know what it tastes like. Despite the massive calories it contains. 

Then there is the issue knowing how to cook many people don't know how to cook anymore and so Greg's for lunch ready meals for tea are the norm..

Finally there is the issue of excess sugar. We looked at cereals a while back and the number of cereals with 20% sugar is crazy. Same goes for bread most pre packed bread has high sugar content. 

Cheers James


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## D_W (23 Jul 2021)

thetyreman said:


> ha well I meant stock for cooking  you aren't lazy at all from what I've seen.



Just tubby, then! There's merit to the notion you're bringing up, though. Even though society is more sedentary in general, if we all had to prep the food we're making, we'd eat less of it. I think most of the problem is convenience and where it crosses discipline.


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## Spectric (23 Jul 2021)

Fat people put themselves at risk because they are more difficult to manage when needing medical help, they fall and you would think they bounce but they break hips and bones. Then medics may have to get them out the house into the meat wagon so hard work often requiring two medic teams and then if they have a heart attack it cannot be easy to give CPR, and as for the defib do they have a fat or obese mode as there is a lot more fat to get a current to flow through. 



Jameshow said:


> Finally there is the issue of excess sugar. We looked at cereals a while back and the number of cereals with 20% sugar is crazy. Same goes for bread most pre packed bread has high sugar content.



If you look at the cereal aisle in a supermarket it is easy to see that it is deliberately targeting kids with these high sugar products, children are now just another commodity that marketing targets to get money out of the parents with no interest in their health or wellbeing. All these problems if taken down to basics will show it is greed and money that cause them, making money is now more important than most things as was demonstrated by old bumbling Borris when he let the virus flood the country because he acted to late because he wanted to protect the economy at all cost.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jul 2021)

Jameshow said:


> I think it mainly comes down to taste, knowledge and hidden calories....
> Finally there is the issue of excess sugar. We looked at cereals a while back and the number of cereals with 20% sugar is crazy. Same goes for bread most pre packed bread has high sugar content.
> Cheers James



Being diabetic, I have looked at the sugar content of foods for a long time. The worst I find are things like as you say bread - one reason why I bake my own - and things you wouldn't think to contain sugar, like Heinz tomato soup which contains 19.4 g per can. Even supposed healthy cereals like All Bran contain quite a lot of sugar. 
A friend, a GP, said years ago that the medical profession was barking up the wrong tree blaming fats for everything when it should have been blaming excess refined sugar.


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## D_W (23 Jul 2021)

Everything processed contains some kind of flavor enhancer (be it salt, MSG, etc - or some kind of hidden name like an extract or something that's just salt or concentrated flavoring) and often sugar. 

The sugar thing is maddening, but I'm sure it improves the taste a little. I think sugary tomato soup is gross, but I'll bet it's easier to get it through kids and old people. 

Whole wheat breads, etc, will almost always contain sugar to get past the bitterness (which, as you know, doesn't really bother you that much if the bread has a fresh *texture*). Take the texture away, and then something has to be done to cover up the fact that the base food doesn't stand on its own well. 

heavy salad dressing comes to mind, too (I don't like any of it). If the vegetables and whatever else is in the salad is fresh, it will have flavor on its own. If it's a wilty pile of rubbish with unripe tomatoes, etc, then I guess people will cover it up. I'll skip the whole thing instead. 

(have to admit that I love the enhancement that a small amount of MSG makes in chinese food and sausage, though. And hate sugar in foods that should be not sweet. Ketchup is just about the foulest invention ever - take something that's lovely - tomatoes - and cover it up with vinegar, garlic and sugar. Just foul.).


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## Cabinetman (23 Jul 2021)

Very rarely buy anything preprocessed, A decent breakfast usually skip lunch and a home-cooked evening meal, all the bones go in a bag in the freezer and then make my own stock so then all the food made with the stock back into it tastes wonderful - pimps.
When the stock has cooled in the fridge you can almost turn it upside down it’s that gelatinous, I started to make it for my Osteo arthritis finger joint pain and it seems to work. I’m 67 but people think I’m late 50s, fit and active without any extra exercise it’s all down to what you stuff in your mouth. Ian


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## clogs (23 Jul 2021)

D_W
most people can't cook let alone prepare food.....
then add growing ur own.....
I'm lucky my wife and I both cook and have a small but well stocked veggy patch.....
I dont eat the norm apples and oranges but love red skinned fruits....
so for breky some honey sweetened musili and at least 2 peaches, plums or necterines.....this is every day...
when in season we scoff cherries etc by the kilo.....
Still a very active 72 year old.....
plus lucky enough to have a proper baker in the next village....the bread is so good I never have butter...u just taste the bread....
plus the home cooked Souvolaki, mmmmmm as the odd treat.....it's a good life.....

mind nothing harder than having to prep and cook food after a hard days work.....
but thats what organisation and a slow-cooker is for......a batchelors best friend...hahaha.....
most just take the easy way out.....


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## TRITON (23 Jul 2021)

Doug B said:


> It doesn’t help that there are 5 times the amount of fast food outlets in poor areas than in wealthy, I guess some will say they are filling a demand but it certainly isn’t helping the situation.


I was visiting a friend once, in his area,which is not one I would normally frequent.
I popped down to the shops to buy him some supplies and went into a corner grocer.

It immediately struck me, Where were all the food stuffs ?. The shop wasn't tiny, it had 3 rows of shelving and fridges along the sides. All the shelves were filled with biscuits, crisps and sweets, the fridges had milk,bread, but the vast majority of the products were canned and bottled soft drinks.

I was pretty shocked.
Sure there were other food shops, but this was a mainstay type establishment, and I would have at least expected tinned goods. I even remarked in a rhetorical way to the shopkeeper the lack of staple foods.


> and take them to an abattoir at least they will have the facts.


You have to be 18 to enter an abattoir, or 16 if you are on a trade apprenticeship. We certainly can't be introducing children to that type of thing.


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## mikej460 (23 Jul 2021)

hairy said:


> I've never tried MDF in my tea though so can't comment on that.


Don't - it's sheet


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## Terry - Somerset (23 Jul 2021)

We almost always prepare food from base ingredients - the reasons:

I prefer to know what I am eating and largely minimise sugar and fats
generally cheaper than premium quality processed food - although per calorie costs a lot more than most "value" brands
I enjoy cooking
The highly mechanised and automated methods used to produce cheap processed food frankly horrify me. "Real" ingredients are often imperfect but selected for their taste - processed food seeks to balance product consistency, appearance and low cost whilst maximising sales revenue.


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## NormanB (24 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Being diabetic, I have looked at the sugar content of foods for a long time. The worst I find are things like as you say bread - one reason why I bake my own - and things you wouldn't think to contain sugar, like Heinz tomato soup which contains 19.4 g per can. Even supposed healthy cereals like All Bran contain quite a lot of sugar.
> A friend, a GP, said years ago that the medical profession was barking up the wrong tree blaming fats for everything when it should have been blaming excess refined sugar.


Leaving aside Type 1 Diabetes, most of the general public just do not understand how the blood sugars are regulated in the bloodstream and the role of insulin. Nor do they understand that over time with high and frequent intake (snacking throughout the day) the body becomes increasing ‘insulin resistant’ and higher levels of insulin are required to have the same control effects on blood sugar until the pancreas reaches its production limit - and that this is the path to Type 2 Diabetes. Alongside that there is a conception about sugar - white sparkly stuff and think the problem is confined to processed food - but that is not even 10% of the problem. The problem is total sugar or ’all sugars’ and we eat those to excess in the form of carbohydrates which are converted to glucose by the digestive tract. Carbohydrates are ubiquitous in the British and American diet. There is no need for anyone to become Type2 diabetic, it is a reversible disease if action taken when you are you ‘young’ - you may also escape if you have the right genes or die from another cause by the time you are 50.


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## D_W (24 Jul 2021)

The difference between us and my grandparents (and many grandparents) is that my grandparents generally at carbs. They had dessert with meals at least once a day. But they were outside doing work and at some point, exhausted the readily available fuel on a regular basis. They definitely at less meat and on a given day, probably had 2-3 servings of vegetables (usually way overcooked unless they were in season).


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## Jacob (24 Jul 2021)

dangles said:


> What does a " toilet for 2 people" look like?


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## Misterdog (24 Jul 2021)

Needs Izal 'loo paper' for the period effect  

Or the Daily Mail...


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## porker (24 Jul 2021)

NormanB said:


> Leaving aside Type 1 Diabetes, most of the general public just do not understand how the blood sugars are regulated in the bloodstream and the role of insulin. Nor do they understand that over time with high and frequent intake (snacking throughout the day) the body becomes increasing ‘insulin resistance’ and higher levels of insulin are required to have the same control effects on blood sugar until the pancreas reaches its production limit - and that this is the path to Type 2 Diabetes. Alongside that there is a conception about sugar - white sparkly stuff and think the problem is confined to processed food - but that is not even 10% of the problem. The problem is total sugar or ’all sugars’ and we eat those to excess in the form of carbohydrates which are converted to glucose by the digestive tract. Carbohydrates are ubiquitous in the British and American diet. There is no need for anyone to become Type2 diabetic, it is a reversible disease if action taken when you are you ‘young’ - you may also escape if you have the right genes or die from another cause b the time you are 50.


This is so true. I have Type 2 diabetes diagnosed almost a year ago and since reading up extensively on the condition and talking to other family members (I have a genetic disposition towards diabetes), I follow a very low carb (keto) diet. GPs are mixed in attitude to this but lucklily mine was supportive when I declined the tablets and my last blood test showed I effectively put the diabetes into remission. She was amazed with the result and I see there is a change in attitude in some medical quarters in this area. As @NormanB states, a lot of people who are overweight (I was, but not massively so) are actually insulin resistant and no starvation low calorie diet will work for them over the long term. I now eat a high fat / protein diet have lost 3 stone in weight and feel better than I did in my thirties (I am 53 now). 

This thread has drifted around a few subjects but on kitchens, I was refitting mine and to date have spent around £30k doing it myself but that includes building work etc. It has massively improved our house and stopped my wife (who does most of the cooking) being locked away almost in isolation, it represents less than 3% of the value of the house and as a long term but slow 'house flipper' has always been the best investment towards improving a property and getting good resale value. Never quite understood peoples attitude towards having to justify everything. If you can afford it and you want it, why not have it.


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## JobandKnock (24 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Needs Izal 'loo paper' for the period effect
> 
> Or the Daily Mail...


I've finally learned what use the Daily Mail is. Thank you.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> I've finally learned what use the Daily Mail is. Thank you.


News of the World in my day.


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## Droogs (24 Jul 2021)

NormanB said:


> Leaving aside Type 1 Diabetes, most of the general public just do not understand how the blood sugars are regulated in the bloodstream and the role of insulin. Nor do they understand that over time with high and frequent intake (snacking throughout the day) the body becomes increasing ‘insulin resistance’ and higher levels of insulin are required to have the same control effects on blood sugar until the pancreas reaches its production limit - and that this is the path to Type 2 Diabetes. Alongside that there is a conception about sugar - white sparkly stuff and think the problem is confined to processed food - but that is not even 10% of the problem. The problem is total sugar or ’all sugars’ and we eat those to excess in the form of carbohydrates which are converted to glucose by the digestive tract. Carbohydrates are ubiquitous in the British and American diet. There is no need for anyone to become Type2 diabetic, it is a reversible disease if action taken when you are you ‘young’ - you may also escape if you have the right genes or die from another cause b the time you are 50.


You stated there is no need for anyone to become type 2 diabetic, well I am living proof you are wrong. i have just proven to be Type 2 Diabetic and this is entirely nothing to do with diet or how much sugar I have in my diet but due to my pancreas failing due to other illness. So not as simple as you paint it but yes by and large for most due to an excess of sugar that they are mostly unaware of actually being in the foods they eat. Especially in light of the inability of the majority in the UK to actually cook a nutritious meal from scratch.


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## selectortone (24 Jul 2021)

I have been able to reverse a type 2 diabetes diagnosis by reducing the amount of sugar in my diet. 

I was diagnosed as borderline after a blood test for an unrelated condition 3 years ago and my doctor sent me to a workshop run by the local health authority that explained the workings of the pancreas and diet regimes to mitigate the condition.

I have home urine test strips I use weekly and a test at the docs every 6 months and have been diabetes-free so far (touch wood). No more biscuits or cake for me!


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## sometimewoodworker (25 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> As an aside - more than one kitchen (+ basic kit in a garage/home office etc) is a pointless extravagance, largely the preserve of those more interested in status and statement. It simply creates hassle - more things to breakdown or fail, more effort to refurbish and renew at regular intervals to stay up to date with latest colour supplement trends.


That rather depends on the cooking. We have 2.5 kitchens for 2 people, when you get chilli and other aromatic spices being cooked it’s as bad as mustard gas even with extraction fans so is never done in the house


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## NormanB (25 Jul 2021)

Droogs said:


> You stated there is no need for anyone to become type 2 diabetic, well I am living proof you are wrong. i have just proven to be Type 2 Diabetic and this is entirely nothing to do with diet or how much sugar I have in my diet but due to my pancreas failing due to other illness. So not as simple as you paint it but yes by and large for most due to an excess of sugar that they are mostly unaware of actually being in the foods they eat. Especially in light of the inability of the majority in the UK to actually cook a nutritious meal from scratch.


It’s a grey area. If the pancreas is disabled from producing insulin by other disease then it could also be classified as type 1.


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## NormanB (25 Jul 2021)

porker said:


> This is so true. I have Type 2 diabetes diagnosed almost a year ago and since reading up extensively on the condition and talking to other family members (I have a genetic disposition towards diabetes), I follow a very low carb (keto) diet. GPs are mixed in attitude to this but lucklily mine was supportive when I declined the tablets and my last blood test showed I effectively put the diabetes into remission. She was amazed with the result and I see there is a change in attitude in some medical quarters in this area. As @NormanB states, a lot of people who are overweight (I was, but not massively so) are actually insulin resistant and no starvation low calorie diet will work for them over the long term. I now eat a high fat / protein diet have lost 3 stone in weight and feel better than I did in my thirties (I am 53 now).
> 
> This thread has drifted around a few subjects but on kitchens, I was refitting mine and to date have spent around £30k doing it myself but that includes building work etc. It has massively improved our house and stopped my wife (who does most of the cooking) being locked away almost in isolation, it represents less than 3% of the value of the house and as a long term but slow 'house flipper' has always been the best investment towards improving a property and getting good resale value. Never quite understood peoples attitude towards having to justify everything. If you can afford it and you want it, why not have it.


Thank you for that. The NHS/PHE nutritional advice is in a mess. Dr David Unwin was awarded an NHS Gold medal for his work in this area which produced remarkable results for his patients. The monolith that is the NHS has not really grasped the significance and changed nutritional advice as a result (the influence of big food?) Daily Mail Article (I do not like quoting the Daily Mail but this is a good overview article.

One of the best You Tube channels for information and guidance on the
is subject is run by Dr Ken Berry in the USA. He has produced hundreds of useful videos, but this 12 minute video is a powerful introduction - Dr Ken Berry Keto Intro

BTW I never mentioned people being overweight. In fact it is less relevant than visceral and belly fat, although generally, but not always, leads to people being overweight too. As an example, Asians in particular have a classification known as ‘TOFI’ (Thin Outside Fat Inside) where they have high levels of visceral fat which impacts on the liver (fatty liver disease) and the pancreas (diabetes).


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## Misterdog (25 Jul 2021)

Droogs said:


> Especially in light of the inability of the majority in the UK to actually cook a nutritious meal from scratch.



Is it inability though ? or just less exciting than posting selfies and opinions on Facebook.


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## Daniel2 (25 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Is it inability though ? or just less exciting than posting selfies and opinions on Facebook.



I think, sadly, that these days it has developed into an inability.


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## Doug B (25 Jul 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Is it inability though ? or just less exciting than posting selfies and opinions on Facebook.


Personally I think it’s more down to time & ease of access, interesting that during the first lock down baking products were in very short supply as more people had time to cook.
These days both parents tend to work, certainly when I was a child there were far more housewives who had the time to cook, so it’s hardly surprising that today’s parents turn to processed meals & take aways.
I’m not saying it’s right but it’s all too easy to decry the next generation I personally wouldn’t want to be growing up these days


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## Misterdog (25 Jul 2021)

Less time on Facebook is more time to cook.
Your choice as to which is more important, many seem to choose the Facebook/fast food option.


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## dangles (25 Jul 2021)

What an unusual topic this has turned out to be,
it's gone from mdf to shitehouses to diabetes
and still no falling out!


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## Misterdog (25 Jul 2021)

Yet


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## Trainee neophyte (25 Jul 2021)

Not mentioned yet regarding type II diabetes is fasting: it doesn't mean nil by mouth for weeks, or living in a cave and having weird religious visions; just not grazing _all_ day. Weirdly, people seem to have a huge fear of being hungry, but it really isn't anything to worry about. 

If you eat less often (but eat the same amount), you will lower your insensitivity to insulin. The results tend to be dramatic, and very fast (excuse the pun). Most people report blood sugar levels reverting to normal within two to three weeks, apparently. Obviously it doesn't work for _everyone_, but it does seem to work for the vast majority of people who can manage it. There is a huge amount of info all over the internet, and this is a random example: 









How fasting reverses type 2 diabetes - Diet Doctor


While many consider type 2 diabetes (T2D) irreversible, fasting has been long known to reverse diabetes. In a previous post, we considered bariatric surgery. While extreme, these surgeries have proven the point that the metabolic abnormalities that underlie T2D (hyperinsulinemia, insulin...




www.dietdoctor.com





I eat once a day, with zero food in between. I do this not because of diabetes, but because I have no mechanism to tell me I have eaten enough - pain from an extended belly is a good indication, but just because it hurts doesn't mean I can't eat more. I can eat my body weight in food three or four times a day if given the chance, so I put on weight like a 6 month old baby unless I actively restrict myself. Its easier for me not to eat at all than to eat a small amount and stop. One meal a day seems to be the best way for me. It just happens to have a huge raft of health benefits to go along with not looking like a beached whale. Depsite my escetic lifestyle, I still eat between two and three thousand calories a day in one gigantic food frenzy. Life is good and nothing is forbidden, just delayed slightly.


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## doctor Bob (25 Jul 2021)

dangles said:


> What an unusual topic this has turned out to be,
> it's gone from mdf to shitehouses to diabetes
> and still no falling out!



Only needs one person to post to change it ....................................


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## Jameshow (25 Jul 2021)

Scrub planes, track Vs table saws or sharpening anyone..


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## Oraclebhoy (25 Jul 2021)

Went into Wickes this afternoon to pick up some more wood screws.
As I walked past the 3x2 CLS 2.4M I near had a heart attack. £5.50 each
They were £3.25 not that long ago.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Jul 2021)

Only £5.50? A few weeks ago I paid just short of £25 for two.


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## topchippyles (25 Jul 2021)

£27.50 for 1 length 4.8m 4x2 in my local merchants at the moment nuts  I buy 4 Big larch logs for £90 which is around a ton and 20/25 lengths of 4x2


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## sometimewoodworker (25 Jul 2021)

topchippyles said:


> £27.50 for 1 length 4.8m 4x2 in my local merchants at the moment nuts  I buy 4 Big larch logs for £90 which is around a ton and 20/25 lengths of 4x2


Logs to 4x2 is never a sensible translation.
any time you look at the cost of logs, which will be green, compared to sawn, dry timber there is a huge differential. The time and process adds vastly to the costs.


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## MARK.B. (25 Jul 2021)




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## thetyreman (26 Jul 2021)

I paid about £15 for just two pieces of 4 x 3 par redwood a few months ago, only two one metre long pieces, it's probably gone up a lot since then.


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## Spectric (26 Jul 2021)

At this rate there will be an increase in tree thefts, sawdust could become a valuable commodity when there is a shortage of MDF and we may be able to sell the contents of our hoovers and extractors for good money!


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## rafezetter (26 Jul 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> That rather depends on the cooking. We have 2.5 kitchens for 2 people, when you get chilli and other aromatic spices being cooked it’s as bad as mustard gas even with extraction fans so is never done in the house



I can vouch for that living on a shared house with largely indian and asian residents, and don't get me started on walking into the kichen one day to find out what the stench was and saw one of our muslims dropping a cleaver into a boiled goats head, I was very nearly sick.

Separate kitchen sounds like a necessity, not a luxury.


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## topchippyles (29 Jul 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Logs to 4x2 is never a sensible translation.
> any time you look at the cost of logs, which will be green, compared to sawn, dry timber there is a huge differential. The time and process adds vastly to the costs.


I milled up 120 4x2 lengths 12 days ago and after the hot weather over the last 10 days they are now at 10% moisture perfect for internal or external joinery. All douglas fir and larch


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## sometimewoodworker (29 Jul 2021)

topchippyles said:


> I milled up 120 4x2 lengths 12 days ago and after the hot weather over the last 10 days they are now at 10% moisture perfect for internal or external joinery. All douglas fir and larch


And that proves exactly what? Apart from your having material you have taken from log to sawn wood.

There are vanishing few people who have the land, raw materials, machines, time or usage to do that.

That you do/can means you have chosen that course, it has little to no bearing on the costs involved from log to sawn dry product,


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## thetyreman (29 Jul 2021)

I was genuinely thinking about stealing a public bench the other day lol had to stop myself.


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## Jake (1 Aug 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Only needs one person to post to change it ....................................



Dr Sourbob in for the kill.


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## Doug B (1 Aug 2021)

Made a large wardrobe last week which included CLS for the stud work & 5ths redwood 4x1 1/2 PAR for the door frames, the cls was more expensive than the PAR, crazy


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## benandez (1 Aug 2021)

It's just not a good time to be buying anything...


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Aug 2021)

Five months since the last box of gravy bones for the dog - £24.99 to £35.08.


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## pgrbff (4 Aug 2021)

I need some "as knot free as possible" softwood for making large but simple Shoji panels for a wardrobe. Cabinet grade "fir", Austrian, is over £1000 m(3) here in Italy.


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## brocher (5 Aug 2021)

Government published the construction cost invoices today


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## Blackswanwood (5 Aug 2021)

This was covered on the BBC TV News yesterday

Timber shortage due to 'unprecedented' post-lockdown demand


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## MARK.B. (5 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Five months since the last box of gravy bones for the dog - £24.99 to £35.08.


Blimey Phil that's some price hike, don't worry though i will send you a couple of slab's of the gravy my good lady make's  you can carve some bones out of it


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2021)

Back down again now from at least one supplier. That was Amazon - I got them again from an Ebay seller for just over £25. I wonder what they'll cost in five months time when I need the next box.


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## Terry - Somerset (5 Aug 2021)

12 months from the depths of lockdown to now is hardly a meaningful trend.

June 2020 activity was largely stalled. Businesses were no doubt carrying high stocks of all goods and wanted to offload them. Prices would have been discounted.

Fast forward a year. Much of the first world getting vaccinated and emerging from constraints. Production of materials over the preceding 6-12 months reduced due to covid restrictions so stocks are at a low level. No surprise that prices have risen hugely. 









New data highlights the materials that have risen in price | Construction News


The cost of building materials in the UK has risen sharply over the past few months, latest figures show. Data released by the Department for Business,




www.constructionnews.co.uk





Prices from 2016 to 2019 rose by ~5% pa - not wholly surprising as the value of ££ fell sharply following the Brexit referendum. From May 2019 to Sept 2020 prices remained fairly stable. 

The real outcome will not be evident for another 6 months as things return closer to normality.


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