# How do we get kids to be engineers



## bracspin (17 Aug 2017)

As a retired professional engineer I love the ability to now work with wood and am grateful for the many posts in this forum that have helped me develop my skills. I do however wonder how we get young people interested in becoming engineers. Once I descibe myself as a Chartered engineer I am often labelled as an academic with no pracrtical skills which is of course far from reality as it is engineers who keep our manufacturing industry running. It is very sad that we lost the route of people being able to do apprenticerships and go through HNC & HND to gain Charter status with a high level of practical skills. Let us encourage our children, especially girls, into the wonderful world of engineering where you learn the theory and how to apply it. Do you have the same problem, or are your children put off because of bad labelling?


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## dzj (17 Aug 2017)

In the days of the old Habsburg Empire when someone was presented to the monarch, they would say "this is so and so the general or physician
or barrister...". When someone had no standing in society, they would say he was an engineer. 
The more things change...


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## NazNomad (17 Aug 2017)

Take away their X-Box & iPhones and make Lego & Meccano compulsory for both genders.

We're breeding a nation of people whose thumbs are evolving whilst their brains are devolving.


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## Mark A (17 Aug 2017)

I took a BTEC National Diploma in engineering when I was 17/18 at a local college. I left with good results, but sadly the experience sapped all enthusiasm to pursue​ the subject further.

The course was a shambles and most of the lecturers frankly didn't give a cowpat (one would often not turn up for lecturers because he preferred to go surfing) so I remember feeling disillusioned within the first few weeks.

I didn't have a particularly good time there, but that's not to say others felt the same way - I know several went on to university and apprenticeships after college.

I think the education system can do an awful lot more to incorporate engineering into the school curriculum, which would go a long way to introduce the subject to kids years before those dreaded careers advice sessions!

Mark

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2017)

I read a letter in The Times a long while ago from a guy who owned a fairly large engineering firm. He said he much prefered to take on apprentices as he himself was a time served apprentice, the main problem he had now was that as nothing practical of any value was taught in schools any more, he was expected to turn sixteen year olds who had never picked up a hammer or a file into qualified engineers in three years - it just couldn't be done. 
Just look on ebay for lathes, bandsaws, etc. - a huge amount is specified to have come from schools.


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## Mark A (17 Aug 2017)

A quick point about labelling:

People like to improve their job description by adding "engineer" onto the end of it. Most of them should be called technicians or repair men/women/persons if they don't hold a qualification which grants then the privilege​ to use the title.

How many times have you heard washing machine engineer or Sky engineer? It belittles the rightful title, so in people's minds it holds less kudos than it should.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2017)

There is an ongoing discussion on the Times Online about the wage of a particular university vice chancellor - £451,000 p.a. + £20,000 p.a. expenses + a grace and favour apartment. She is a psychologist. I wonder how many engineers earn half that as v.c.s? ... or as anything at all, actually?


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## Fitzroy (17 Aug 2017)

In the US Engineer is a protected title like doctor, lawyer etc and societally engineering is much more respected and rewarded. Calling a technician an engineer has to have resulted in confusion in children as to what an engineer does. We take a number of young adults from school for work experience into my department and many of them had a very confused idea of what we did prior to them arriving (I run an engineering department covering chemical, mechanical, electrical and control engineering in the oil industry). They expect dirty kit and overalls, not the high spec computers and 3D visualisation they encounter. 

F.

Edited for clarity, good spot Mr P that one typo undid my entire argument.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2017)

expect?


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## YorkshireMartin (17 Aug 2017)

phil.p":3mry7cak said:


> I read a letter in The Times a long while ago from a guy who owned a fairly large engineering firm. He said he much prefered to take on apprentices as he himself was a time served apprentice, the main problem he had now was that as nothing practical of any value was taught in schools any more, he was expected to turn sixteen year olds who had never picked up a hammer or a file into qualified engineers in three years - it just couldn't be done.
> Just look on ebay for lathes, bandsaws, etc. - a huge amount is specified to have come from schools.



I asked my cousins son about what they get taught at schools these days in terms of practical skills, he's 11 so in his first year at secondary school.

Theres no metalwork at his school. They do design and technology but it's on rotation, so every three weeks a bit of woodwork, then home economics (cookery) and finally industrial design and back to the start. He isn't allowed to use any machines at all. They have a plasma cutter which apparently 4th years and above are allowed to use under close supervision. Band saws, lathes and so on were out of the question and he was shocked when I asked. He said they had been told they were very dangerous, which they are, if you stick your hand in one.

I forgot to ask about chisels. I'd meant to.

Wrapped in cotton wool with very limited exposure to hands on skills. No problem, they can simply all become IT consultants because it's not as if there aren't enough already. :roll:


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## sunnybob (18 Aug 2017)

Adults (and I use the term loosely) are so frightened that children and even other adults will get hurt that no one is allowed to actually do the work anymore.
20 years ago now I went on an electronics course at a technical college, in order to do my job better.
Can you believe that class of adults was not allowed to use real components due to electrocution risk? We had to use computer simulations to fault find. But most of the adults didnt know how to work the computer. I spent most of my classes trying to teach a man older than me NOT to move the mouse before he clicked the button.
I came away from that 12 week evening class knowing almost as much as i knew before I started.

Untill people wanting to learn are again allowed to use real tools in real situations, it aint gonna get any better.
And then you need decent teachers... 40 years ago I went to evening classes to learn to be a TV engineer. The "teacher" spent most of each lesson telling us about his life on the trams. After 6 weeks he was sacked (they waited for 6 weeks because less than that and they had to refund the money to the students).
One of the students took over the class and it became just a "bring something in and work on it yourself" fiasco.

So as far as I'm concerned, its the adults who need a rocket up their sit upons, not the youngsters.


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## novocaine (18 Aug 2017)

you could start by asking the children / girls what would interest them. 

then you could stop assuming that the numbers are dwindling, it's surprising how many young engineers there are out there, but as with the man who does all the work for the evil doctor or mad scientist, you don't really see the engineers (not the good ones anyway). no we don't have as many as we once had, but then, did we once have to many? 

What are we calling engineering anyway? I'm a mechanical engineer (I have a certificate and everything), my boss is a chemical engineer, I drink with an electrical engineer and we all laugh at the aerospace engineer. which one of us is an "engineer".


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## finneyb (18 Aug 2017)

There was a move a few years back to bring in the title Eur Eng - European Engineer as a protected title for Chartered Engineers, didn't really take off; they use it in Europe and it does seem to help with status. 

There is always an alleged shortage of the right people be that engineers, doctors, nurses etc negatives sell newspapers! 

For a few years I have been a judge on the North West 'Big Bang' competition - no longer exists due to a change in the contract - there was no shortage of schools putting teams up to compete on STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering & Maths) projects. However, you could see the geographical areas that were not represented - my Local Authority got their ear bent for lack of interest every year but I cannot say that it has improved. Of course, it all depends on the ability and enthusiasm of the teachers. I've offered my time to help local teachers but got a stonewall !

My understanding is that civil engineering design can be/are passed around the world with the internet to where the labour is cheapest while still working to EU/UK Codes of Practice for the UK jobs. So perhaps we need more managerial skills than practical these days. 

Brian


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## tomatwark (18 Aug 2017)

This does not just apply to engineers.

It is the same for all industry sectors, that actually make or install things.

It is the same with wood working as well, I would much rather employ someone with no qualification but with good woodworking skills, than someone who has been on full time course and has no idea how to work at a rate that makes money and solve problems when they arise.

I am now asking anyone I interview to carry out a skills test.

As for training that is needed for health and safety that is easily solved either in house or the odd day here and there.

We do have 3 apprentices however that are really good, the issue I might have here is keeping them when they finish, but that is a problem all firms face.

The schools need to understand that sending all your pupils to uni to make their rating look goods does not help the UK economy in the long run.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Aug 2017)

The better part of twenty years ago a young girl I worked with went for an interview for a patissier's job at one of London's very top hotels.
When she got back I asked how she'd got on. Fine, she said the interview went really well. I thought they'd finished but one off them pulled a bag of groceries from under the table, said the kitchens are over there, the ovens are pre heated - go cook. What do you want me to cook? she asked. See what you've got in the bag and impress us was the reply.
The kid obviousy did - she got the job. One sensible interview.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Aug 2017)

novocaine":1t1h82q6 said:


> What are we calling engineering anyway? I'm a mechanical engineer (I have a certificate and everything), my boss is a chemical engineer, I drink with an electrical engineer and we all laugh at the aerospace engineer. which one of us is an "engineer".



Some years ago I talked to a guy with a PhD in engineering who was down for an interview for a lecturer's job at Camborne School of Mines. He came from Nottingham, and said that most of the mining engineers he worked and trained with now worked in sweet factories - the pits had closed, and the money was better anyway.


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## Chris152 (18 Aug 2017)

My son's 14 and wants to be an engineer. He loves building stuff and we do some of that together. In September he starts a Saturday club being run in affiliation with a local Ford plant, where they'll strip back and rebuild a car engine, learn computing, electrical systems and something else that I can't remember. It's a free course running for 12 weeks, and looks like a great balance between 'traditional' engineering and contemporary technologies. 
I don't know if he'll be better of going for an apprenticeship or a degree course if he's still interested in a few years, both are equally 'real' in my mind. It seems the way things are going, hands-on work will be less important. I even wonder if the stripping back and rebuilding a car engine will soon really be a bit of nostalgia. But to my mind, there still needs to be a balance between computer generated work and stuff we build with our hands. 
Written by someone who knows very little about engineering...


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Aug 2017)

Once you're on the inside of many of these large firms they will put you through a degree if they deem you need it.


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## Chris152 (18 Aug 2017)

phil.p":qg4fj79g said:


> Once you're on the inside of many of these large firms they will put you through a degree if they deem you need it.


That's an interesting possibility. He's also noticed that Aston Martin have recently moved a plant to just a few miles down the road! No idea if they do apprenticeships though.


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## AJB Temple (18 Aug 2017)

It is the wrong question in the title post. The real question should be "how do we start businesses that will generate a requirement for engineers?"


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## bracspin (18 Aug 2017)

I agree we have lost a lot of manufacturing but there is still plenty of opportunities. The car industry has been mentioned but often forgotten is that we are one of the most successful pharmaceutical manufacturers who employ a whole range of engineering disciplines. If you are considering a career in engineering contact the Institutes who provide great career packs for young people and where to seek employment. Thanks for the discussions on this post it has been interesting. We place far too much pressure on people going to a University to get a degree often in subjects that have no bearing for the skills industry requires.  Its a shame that the do gooders pushed Universities and we lost the great Polytechnics and Technical Colleges that we had. These provided hands on skills with sound qualifications that were as good as a degree.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Aug 2017)

An friend was working about 50 years ago was working in a factory that produced synthetic yarn. One day his newly employed, degree "qualified" line manager told him to load a machine with a particular material and he replied that not only would it not work, it would destroy the machine. The guy insisted it wouldn't, so my friend asked for the instruction in writing. He got it, and duly destroyed the machine. he was hauled across the coals and produced the written instruction, getting none of the blame. Some while afterwards he inquired what the bloke's degree was in - it was eclesiastical history. 
My father followed the trend in the late '60s to employ people with degrees as site managers : within six months they were all gone - replaced by chippies and masons.


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## thick_mike (18 Aug 2017)

finneyb":3eestaae said:


> There was a move a few years back to bring in the title Eur Eng - European Engineer as a protected title for Chartered Engineers, didn't really take off; they use it in Europe and it does seem to help with status.
> 
> There is always an alleged shortage of the right people be that engineers, doctors, nurses etc negatives sell newspapers!
> 
> ...



Unfortunately the teachers are all pushed to the limit delivering the curriculum. All of the nice to have and enriching activities are squeezed out of our schools by overbearing assessment and data. I would love to run a science and engineering club at my school, but I am exhausted just doing the basics. It's a very sad state of affairs.


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## Tasky (18 Aug 2017)

All terms capitalised are so on purpose, to distinguish from those who use the terms incorrectly. 

I work in Civil Engineering, alongside Chartered and Incorporated Engineers. Technically I am a Technician, based on the work I do and what I am trained to do. However, we have Generic Role Profiling and as such, our Engineers have been reclassified as Technical Advisors, while I am now an Analyst. Through this they were actually able to lower our pay... and already, not only is Civils among the lowest paid of the Engineering disciplines, but in the UK we are paid less than 70% of the rest of the world doing the same role. If there were any viable vacancies for a Technician in Germany, New Zealand or something, I'd be on a good £16k more!!



bracspin":24reu693 said:


> I do however wonder how we get young people interested in becoming engineers.


Pay them properly. 
Simple as. 

We still have apprenticeships as well as graduate programmes... but all the Engineers end up as Project Managers, because it pays much better and the Engineering degree training is vastly superior to actual PM degrees!!


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## HappyHacker (18 Aug 2017)

Unfortunately the term engineer has become totally misused in the UK to the point where it is an "engineer" who changes the oil in your car. Coupled with a school system where the success of the individual and the school is judged on the pass rate and grades at whatever the current exams are called. So the schools teach to the exam, one of my daughters ex boyfriends was doing A level english literature and boasted that he had not read a book since he was 12. Meanwhile as our children grades improve year on year we (the UK) keep going down on the international tables of academic attainment. 

When I joined secondary school the woodworking lessons from the first year included the use of chisels, saws, hammers, when a couple of years later we started metalwork we used lathes, drills, forges. Virtually all of which would be too risky for todays children. When I went to grammar school to do A levels they had no wood or metal working facilities, they learnt french and latin instead.

The son of a friend wanted to get an engineering apprenticeship, he was accepted by an aerospace factory but he would not do HND/C as part of the apprenticeship, they would only teach the apprentices who they needed to do the job. He got a mechanical engineering apprenticeship in a oil refinery where he will get qualifications. 

A old school friend now retired who was a civil engineer, with no formal qualifications but years of experience designing and building roads said he was being offered contracts at ridiculously high rates as they could not get people with trained and with experience to do the work.

I do worry about the future of the UK when our politicians keep on saying that we will be a knowledge economy when so many other countries are outstripping our levels of knowledge. 

Finally why should anyone aspire to be an engineer in the UK and earn a relatively low wage with poor career progression when they can become bankers and rake it in.


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## whiskywill (18 Aug 2017)

Tasky":3avd6zgg said:


> Engineering degree training is vastly superior to actual PM degrees!!



Can you actually do a degree in Project Management? I am both. An engineer by qualification, a project manager by experience?


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## HappyHacker (19 Aug 2017)

whiskywill":3pqk0b2m said:


> Can you actually do a degree in Project Management? I am both. An engineer by qualification, a project manager by experience?




Yes you can, I have met a few of them with varying degrees of competence from reasonable to good. From what I was told it was a general business degree with a high emphasis on project management and risk management. Some people argue that project management is all about risk management. While I agree that every activity a project manager performs is about some element of risk management I believe PMs need skills in addition to risk management to successfully perform the role.


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## Rhyolith (19 Aug 2017)

As someone who has literally just come through the education system and who originally wanted to be an engineer, thought I could add a bit to the original question of this thread.

I first got interested in engineering in high school, this was through several clubs themed around scrap heap challenge, robot wars, those kind of things. I loved those and learned a lot. Certainly was better than the borderline useless tech lessons.

People have said D&T in schools is severly limited by the rules banning students form using any powertools (and many other things you need to actaully do anything), this is so true. It means you always having to wait for a teacher to progress, which aside from making project progression tediosuly slow also prevents you learning to work independently. Don't avoid dangerous things, learn to do dangerous things safely. :roll: 

The other thing that de-railed my potential engineering career was the required high grades in maths, which I simply couldn't get. Suppose you could say that means I was never cut out to be an engineer, which is what I beleived for a long time. 

I tried to do partical subjects and find ways to learn trades like woodworking, car maintains, anything like that through GCSEs and A-levels. But in short the in school D&T remained borderline useless right thorugh till the end of my time at school... this despite being absurbly well funded. They had proper engineering laths, mills, bandsaws, laser cutters, the works! Of course I still was not aloud to use 90% of it 

With no profeessionally practical people in the family or as friends, I had not contacts in trades to learn outside school. Though I did ask a few people in local garages to teach me, they said they couldn't beceasue of Health, saftely and insurance issues :? 

So I had no practical skills to speak of by the age of 17. 

Things only changed when my parents offered to pay for me to go here for a year: http://www.ibtc.co.uk which was lifechanging, if not extremly difficult due to a complete loss of faith in myself by this point (repeatly trying and failing to achieve what I wanted). 

I have found that volunteering is the way to go if you want to learn practical skills, thought this has been alot easier with the base to build on that IBTC course provided. I have since been a conservation volunteer for 5 years at too many places to list here.

I now volunteer for the Norfolk wildlife trust and Mid-Norfolk railway. And get part time paid work with a charity wood workshop (making crates and so on for the charity to sell). 

All this practical volunteering has finally rebuilt all the confidence lost in the education system (aka school) and I feel like my practical knowledge and capabilities are now decidedly above average. 

In short I don't think lack of desire to become engineers is the problem, least not on my generation (born in early 1990s). *Its lack of meaningful opportunity and guidence with the education system for anyone other than academics. *

So sorry for the Autobiography! But I thought it was relevant.


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## finneyb (19 Aug 2017)

Rhyolith

Your point about no engineering family or friends contacts is highly pertinent.
The number of times I've seen children follow their parents careers is remarkable - or perhaps it isn't the parent's career is 'normal' to the child, so follows it.

Brian


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## Stanleymonkey (19 Aug 2017)

thick_mike":2g4es3t1 said:


> finneyb":2g4es3t1 said:
> 
> 
> > There was a move a few years back to bring in the title Eur Eng - European Engineer as a protected title for Chartered Engineers, didn't really take off; they use it in Europe and it does seem to help with status.
> ...




I think the answer to the original poster's question is to remove the current government. They have pushed the current ridiculous curriculum. Primary education needs to be opened up for starters and children need to be doing more DT so they can go to secondary school with some semblance of basic skills.


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## bracspin (19 Aug 2017)

First can I thank everyone who has responded to my original post. I have certainly got more information on peoples’ views which can only be beneficial to the debate. Rhyolith I feel for you havening your initial enthusiasm for engineering worn down. It is true though that to do a degree course you do need a good grasp of mathematics to be able to tackle such subjects as fluid mechanics and thermodynamics but this should not be the only course. Although I had the opportunity to go to University to study Chemical Engineering my cousin went a different route. He took on an apprenticeship were he could also study at a Technical College to gain an HND. He went on to be one of Fords top experts in fuel injection.

I know when I was at school I had great teachers who really knew their subjects and could pass on knowledge with enthusiasm. From what I can see modern teachers struggle to find time due to the enormous amount of bureaucracy put upon them. We also do not attract high fliers into the profession because of the poor status and relatively low pay. Of course engineering also has the same problem with status in this country. I remember when BG decided to call their gas fitters ‘Gas Engineers’, a number of leaders of engineering companies complained but they still went ahead. I have a friend who is a Chartered Gas Engineer. He builds and runs major gas plant the type that has 24” to 36” pipelines and he was incredulous. Until we stop all sundry calling themselves engineers it will not change.
So where do we go. It should be high on the agenda of politicians who use words about building our manufacturing and hi-tech companies but as many of them studied politics or humanities and have never worked in the real world they haven’t got a clue. I guess we should push more ourselves but how? The debate goes on!


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## Keith 66 (19 Aug 2017)

I work in a school as a D&T technician, i am increasingly disilusioned with the way the subject is going. It is being dumbed down year on year.
In our school we had a typical 1970's workshop set up with a lot of high quality machinery, the drive to academy status saw this scrapped & replaced with far eastern tat barely fit for purpose. THis happened & is still happening all over the country. And yet we still use tools, Kids get to do woodwork get to do woodturning & actually make stuff. They get to use the metal lathe & do some basic forge work, We do casting metal as well, much of this is done as demonstrations but i always try & get the kids involved. For most of them it is the first time they will have ever created something real & the look of pride on their faces is why i still do the job.
The teachers have a problem they have to deliver the sylabus nothing more, The kids are not there to learn they are there to pass the exams & shove the league tables up. Several times i have pulled the teacher up saying "This is plain wrong" but have then had to go along with it because the person that wrote the curriculum got it wrong but its now part of the exam so its gospel & cant be changed.
The new curriculum was aparently written by someone who has taught D&T for just three years. Think that sums it up.


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## Rhyolith (20 Aug 2017)

Keith 66, I really relate with everything you said there. 

Its an ongoing cultural, socail and political obession with acamdemia. Literally nothing that is not a "traditional" academic subject gets any serious attention in mainstream education. It seems like eveyone thinks the ultimate form of human is an academic perfectionist :? (and maybe the odd olypmic athlete) 

Bracspin I think whats needed is a cultural, social and potitical recognition of the value of practical skills, including but not just limited to engineering. How to do that is just not a simple or easy question to answer... 

Mostly I try to settle for learning and preserving practical skills from the past so they are still here when everyone once again realises we need them.


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## AES (20 Aug 2017)

Very interesting thread this, and if Keith 66 is to be believed (NO reason to doubt it), then very sad for the future of "GB Ltd" too.

There have been threads on this Forum along these lines before, and being a "boring old forz" who did a "proper" apprenticeship in the RAF starting in 1961 and now a permanent expat, I for one regret the way things seem to be going in UK.

NO commercial aircraft built in UK at all as far as I know, and only the design and build of wings (OK, they ARE important!) for Airbuses, plus a lot of aircraft components (OK also important) being made in UK today.

I remember a programme on TV where (I think) Top Gear had a line up of all the vehicles made in Britain, and at 1st sight, very impressive it was too. But apart from JCB, Morgan, some trucks, and some Formula 1 stuff (OK, all also important of course), they included stuff like Datsun, Peugeot, Toyota, etc, in that line up. I may be wrong about this, but I THINK these cars are not designed in UK but simply assembled there, being made from components made in UK but fabricated on tooling designed and built elsewhere.

And I'm often reading (on this Forum too) that those who interview for apprentice positions (for example) find that the majority of school leavers are just "not fit for purpose".

It's all very, very sad, especially when you think of all the "stuff" that came out of Birmingham (for example) and went all over the world, even as fairly recently as back when I was a lad.

So I think the 1st question is "does this matter"?

If, as it seems to me as an interested external observer, the answer from politicians of all stripes and from the educational establishment is "No, not really. There are better fish to fry these days", then I reckon us "boring old forzes" should just shut up and carry on enjoying ourselves mumbling into our beards about "fings ain't what they used ter be".

But IF, (as I happen to believe) the answer to my 1st question is "Yes, it really does matter" then to me, rightly or wrongly, "GB Ltd" needs to stop whinging about Brexit (again for example) and get on and start learning how to be competitive in ALL areas. 

As suggested by Keith and others, I also believe that this starts with education and learning in all it's aspects, for which you all "over there" (I have no voting rights in UK) ought to be doing something about by knocking some sense into the heads of politicians (IF possible!) and into the educational establishment. (And while you're about it, you can all start doing something about the "management" of many UK companies too)!

But one thing is for sure, if "GB Ltd" doesn't do something soon (and a pretty radical something too), I think it will be too late, 'cos there are plenty of other countries who are, and continue to be, competitive in many (if not all) areas.

Going back to my vehicles examples above, I drive on German, Swiss, and French motorways pretty frequently and although not a fanatical spotter, it's rare that I see a UK-built truck.

My take - perhaps I really am a "boring old forz" who's time has come and gone already. Dunno.

But thanks for an interesting thread anyway.

AES


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## AJB Temple (20 Aug 2017)

Looking at the preceding posts, my take is it is pointless bemoaning lack of skills and poor D&T teaching etc. There is no merit in training people with design and making skills, unless we have an industry to employ them, and demand for the products of that industry. We have neither, as our culture has shifted to buy cheap imported goods and accept limited longevity. 

This forum is biased in a number of ways: already full of people who have skills or aspire to, hence that is valued here. It skews attitudes. It is interesting that a lot of posts on forums such as this recommend tools that are made in, for example China, “value” being key apparently. How this helps UK industry is a mystery to me. There seems to be a desire for UK jobs and training to be supported, but no desire to shoulder the cost and behavioural burden. 

We have an education system that is driven by political objectives (left, centre and right) which incentivise universities to haul in lots of undergraduates, as they (universities) are paid most from maximising student numbers. This is great for employers like me, because it helps to drive wages down, as graduate input is constantly replenished at a rate faster than jobs can be created. Already many graduates have jobs that do not require degrees. It is not good for young people. 

High graduate numbers keeps unemployment statistics down. It is in fact delusional, but hey ho. 

Artificial intelligence and advanced CNC and 3D print production has radically changed the demand for skills. The Chinese have embraced this and, with a state supported currency, are making great global progress. Artisan skills, however desirable, will have no measurable impact on the UK economy. We are not producing graduates with the skills we will need in 5 or 10 years. In 5 or 10 years the UK risks being an economic backwater. 

Brexit is delivering higher costs and less income in real terms to many, perhaps most people. It has also materially alienated our nearest and largest market. As I am married to an EU citizen and spend a good deal of time on mainland Europe, I have seen attitudes shift, and not in our favour. There is an assumption among many here in the UK that we will find new markets somewhere, and that the materially devalued £ will make exports attractive. This is true but we need the goods to export and we need them not to have a sizeable proportion of imported (much more expensive now) components. 

We have a media and general populace with a very negative attitude to banks and financial services. Given this sector contributes vastly to taxes and the economy, and is also a major driver or influencer for pensions for our increasingly elderly population, this negativity seems irrational and often ignorant. We should now be treating it as our economic safety net and building attractiveness. Doing otherwise is shooting ourselves in the foot. 

The political instability with a slender Tory majority and impassioned “tax business / tax the rich” approach of the left, is very off putting for business people like me when it comes to investment and increasing my payroll spend. This attitude, one I am not alone in having, puts a brake on the economy. I am not a big employer - around 50 in London - but I have held back on expansion in this country because the risks are too high. I don’t care what colour government is in power as long as they deliver stability. That is not happening. 

In conclusion, it is pure fantasy to think that having more apprenticeships or vocational training will do anything at all. It puts the cart before the horse. We actually need entrepreneurial risk takers, suitably incentivised, to create the ideas, and then create the industry to drive the demand for labour.


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## Rhyolith (20 Aug 2017)

Thanks AJB, thats got me thinking some more! 

You say that more vocational training is a fantasy without demand, I think this is missing a large part of the point of education. Its meant to expand minds and allow people to be the best they can be, setting them up for life... its not just about providing the countries workforce.

Going into the current education system, naturally only a small proportion of thr population are going to be gifted or even 'useful' academics (less than 20% i reckon). Likewise there is always going to be a proportion (and i reckon a high proportion) who are naturally vocational, ingoring this and force training these people as something we deem the economey to 'need' is not making them the best they could be; nor is it a very efficent use of a worksforce.


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## AES (20 Aug 2017)

Thanks "AJB", interesting post with more than just a little "truth and logic" in it.

As per my post (above), perhaps I really am a "boring old forz" (just like my Dad was!) always bemoaning a past which it is neither possible nor desirable to try and recreate.

I just really dunno, but interesting discussion all the same, thanks all.

AES


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## Droogs (20 Aug 2017)

Finance may be the backbone of our economy, that's true but the reason that industry sector is despised as it is, is due to the core nature of it's leaders as seen by the rest of the population at large. In that they are in terms of national wealth parasitic almost vampiric in siphoning off most of it for themselves. I don't begrudge anyone success or wealth but excessive wealth held by a few people is disgusting, espescially when there are so many suffering due to the policies enacted in order to increase theirs at the suffering of others. Personally i feel they should have let the effers institutions fail in 2008 and gone after the personal wealth of those who run them in order to mitigate the damage. There are institutions among them that had a deliberate policy of forcing running successful business to collapse for their own short term profit rather than invest for everyones long tem profit. No nation can be successful when those running these institution are so shortsighted. We continue to consume at a rate that is unsustainable but don't want to do the dirty mannual work needed so palm this off parts of the world where the working practices would cause uproar here. 
The main reason we don't educate our young to think for themselves, teach them how to make things or that making anything other than money is good is that in general we are a decadent society in the last stages of it's imperial glory. Sad but true, Brexit being the prime example along with the slide of our educational standards compared to how the rest of the world is doing. We used to be admired and emulated, but no more.

well rant over


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## AJB Temple (20 Aug 2017)

Droogs. This is natural emotion but factually completely wrong. I am not supporting a few highly paid rogue bankers from a decade ago - just being rational. Many times I have heard the "should have let them collapse and make the bankers pay". It is nonsense. When RBS reached the brink of collapse, it's balance sheet and economic scale was not dissimilar to that of the rest of the UK economy. It had millions of retail clients, probably similar to you, with savings and mortgages and credit cards and loans. So, we let it collapse. Then what? Do we let all these retail customers crash and burn as well? And all the business customers too. Lets just blame the bankers, not the Treasury , government, wider regulators and Bank of England. It is so much easier to just pin the blame on a few people. 

Now let's look at the fat cats. I can't recall off hand how many employees RBS had. Tens of thousands. The vast majority of these are ordinary people with ordinary jobs and salaries, working in branches, doing administration and so on. A few dozen were earning serious money (millions) and F Goodwin was among them. A few hundred more were earning hundreds of thousands. But that is about it - the snowy cap of a very large mountain. Now, even if you could prove culpability for all these people (in a banking crisis that started rolling across the pond with the sub-prime / Lehman debacle) - which is neither likely nor likely to even be true (that they were all culpable), and even if the law allowed recovery of all personal assets (which it doesn't) - how much money do you think would be recovered? I suggest it is like comparing a bath tub to the Atlantic ocean. 

Whilst everyone talks about education - and I agree that it is a good thing - we have no real mechanism whatsoever for encouraging entrepreneurial growth. Instead we have a ludicrous "gig" economy. Our retail sector is being destroyed by US companies like Amazon. We moan that they pay no tax - but they do. They just export their profits to their home territory and tax shelters and pay it there. We celebrate the creation of 20,000 low paid jobs. Left wing politicians say they would raise taxes. Fine, kiss goodbye to global inward investment. 

There is no point educating kids and saying "the jobs will come" if we do not create fertile conditions for that. It is great that people (some) want to learn for its own sake. But in such cases we should eliminate the laughable so called "vocational" degrees in pretend subjects that I see candidates emerging from university with. To avoid causing offence I would not wish to denigate particular subjects, but honestly some of the people coming out of former polytechnics with a 2.2 in public relations, the history of media studies, or my current favourite, gender studies, are not likely to set the world of business alight. =The standard statistic is that a degree adds £250k to lifelong earnings and creates about £60k of debt. It ignores the lack of income during the degree period. As AI, lack of market post Brexit and mechanisation consumes UK jobs, the degree benefit will narrow sharply and very rapidly in my opinion. We need to address this but we do not have very clever politicians. As we want to pay them as little as possible and pay no one more than the prime minister gets, we are unlikely to attract our top thinkers to politics either. Idiotic dumbing down to the lowest common denominator is a big risk in my view. AJ


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## AJB Temple (20 Aug 2017)

I should add, whilst I do not personally think Brexit was a smart vote or founded on rationality (as opposed to sentiment), it makes very little difference to me as I have dual passports and can live in Germany or Switzerland any time I like, so this is not colouring my views. Also I am not an employee (except I employ myself) and am old enough that I am entirely relaxed about business and work. It just depresses me that we are creating such a weak future for our kids. We need to let go of past failings (banking crisis and all that) and look forward. We can't change history but we can shape a future. Just saying "we will stand on our town two feet" or words to that effect, along with "it will be tough at first but in the long run it will be fine" does not fill me with confidence that there is a plan. We need a business plan for the UK!


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## Student (20 Aug 2017)

Interesting that the next topic, at present, is all about the UK's engineering excellence in the 1930's i.e. how to build a steam engine.


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## Rhyolith (20 Aug 2017)

AJB Temple":33qlqipg said:


> I should add, whilst I do not personally think Brexit was a smart vote or founded on rationality (as opposed to sentiment), it makes very little difference to me as I have dual passports and can live in Germany or Switzerland any time I like, so this is not colouring my views. Also I am not an employee (except I employ myself) and am old enough that I am entirely relaxed about business and work. It just depresses me that we are creating such a weak future for our kids. We need to let go of past failings (banking crisis and all that) and look forward. We can't change history but we can shape a future. Just saying "we will stand on our town two feet" or words to that effect, along with "it will be tough at first but in the long run it will be fine" does not fill me with confidence that there is a plan. We need a business plan for the UK!


I don't know how you could create a business plan for a whole country... the complexity would be ludicrous. Even just thinking about it in thoery (let alone reality) is an impossible task. Then theres the case of convincing people to follow the plan, and keep following over years (and multiple elections). 

I see no realistic way it could happen...


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## AJB Temple (21 Aug 2017)

Obviously I did not mean in the same sense as a business plan for an enterprise. I mean a plan for business. If we are to create jobs in this country we need a government that actually has a credible plan. We need to identify markets - not just in a vague sense, but an actual export market for goods or services that we have established people want to buy and that we can produce competitively. We need to identify or create market advantage. This needs to be hand in hand with an economic investment and taxation policy, and couple with both short and long term skills training. Instead we seem focussed on being inward looking and public sector investing - which does not add economic wealth it just shifts it from the left hand to the right hand.


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## woodenstx (21 Aug 2017)

Mark A":1qinxhne said:


> A quick point about labelling:
> 
> People like to improve their job description by adding "engineer" onto the end of it. Most of them should be called technicians or repair men/women/persons if they don't hold a qualification which grants then the privilege​ to use the title.
> 
> ...



On the flip side, I am an engineer (granted its of wussy systems and not "real" stuff), but I seem to spend my time being the technician as we dont have any of those here and I'll happily get my hands dirty :lol:
And it appears that its getting more common for everyone 'here' to add Manager to their title.... I gave up on that plan since it doesnt achieve anything useful imho. I was at a customer site once doing some integration testing and about 15 people came up to me in dribs and drabs with a self important introduction of "Manager of xyz", in the end I asked if there was anyone about that did some useful work :lol:

As for getting kids into engineering, the Pi/Arduino thing seems to be capturing imaginations, just sadly the teachers cant keep up. I found out my daughter was doing a term on Scratch, so we got my Pi up and running with it and showed her some stuff, she then told me what they "learnt" in class and it was awful. So I voulenteeeeeeered to go in and run through the basics, they all loved it. Showed them how not to code as opposed to the right way  Most of them got it, and funnily enough the few class trouble makers actually got on with it well, poor pippers have a life of software engineering ahead of them :lol:


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2017)

Not managers, but it's odd how sales reps became "account managers" - it's nearly as irritating a description as "mixologist", "barista" and "human resources"


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## HappyHacker (21 Aug 2017)

I almost threw my cup of tea at the telly a few weeks ago. While walking through the kitchen my wife was watching The Wright Stuff on the tele. They were talking about education and and the main guy said we do not want our children growing up to do manual jobs. 

I thought that is the problem with so much of education today and who is going to do the plastering, electrics, joinery, plumbing, bricklaying, drains, roofing, glazing, landscaping, road building etc on all these millions of new houses we are supposed to be building if all our children have degrees in Politics, Philosophy and Economics and aspire to be politicians. 

I think we need some more politicians who have had proper jobs to bring some degree of reality to Westminster.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2017)

My late mother always referred to a local street sweeper - the guy obviously liked his job, had done it for decades and took pride in it. As she said - whatever we think about education, we need street cleaners - the man is happy, pay him a wage he can live on and leave him alone.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2017)

HappyHacker":y3fa4x30 said:


> I think we need some more politicians who have had proper jobs to bring some degree of reality to Westminster.



I have a friend, a retired teacher, who went into teaching from industry at 30 plus - he always says no one should be allowed to teach until they've had at least ten years working at something else. The same would be good for politics - that someone can do a PPE, take a job as a researcher or become an intern if from a wealthy family (which most are, regardless of political persuasion), and within a few years tell the PM what to do and think - when they've never actually worked for a living is just plain wrong.


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## AndyT (21 Aug 2017)

Lots of good sense in this thread.
Reading it, I remembered that George Osborne, when he was chancellor, announced a "march of the makers" to revive UK manufacturing. To check when that was, I googled it. The answer was 2011, and the first result was this BBC report trying to explain why it hasn't happened. :-(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35414075


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## Keith 66 (21 Aug 2017)

Practical skills are not valued because too many people know the price of everything & the value of nothing. Everyone wants cheap stuff then moans because it breaks or wont do the job. They want cheap tradesmen so they employ eastern europeans, then they employ someone else cos they are cheaper still. In the school i work with a great team of teachers all of whom are amazed at my skill set on a varied set of machine tools & yet i consider myself to not be an engineer just an average guy, im good at my own trade boatbuilding but im not a cabinet maker. And yert im teaching the teachers on the job because they have very litle woodwork knowledge & absolutely zero metalwork knowledge. Quite how they became d&t teachers im not sure!


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## nev (21 Aug 2017)

Nearly 5 pages and I don't think anyone mentioned the parents. Surely education in the home is as important or arguably more important than that at school. 
Even the most mechanically challenged of parents should be able to cope with a lego or meccanno set to get kids building things from a very young age. 
Maybe educational mechanical 'toys' for youngsters should be available at all libraries? (along with some guide books for the really mechanically challenged parents)


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2017)

But we now have a generation of parents that have never known meccano etc. - it's no longer tradition. Many children are lucky to find a book in their home, let alone a meccano set.


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## Cheshirechappie (21 Aug 2017)

We live in a very complex, technological world. We depend on the generation and distribution of electricity, the extraction, storage and distribution of gas, the treatment and distribution of water, the collection, treatment and disposal of sewage, broadband and telephone networks; we have houses, commercial and industrial buildings, we have transport networks by road, rail, air and sea. All of that needs to be designed, made, installed, operated, maintained and periodically replaced - needing engineers, technicians, craftsmen and others with skills by the thousands.

BUT - most of it is 'out of sight, out of mind' to most people. It's taken for granted, most of the time. The sheer number of man-hours expended on installing and maintaining (for example) the street lighting on the average city arterial road just doesn't register with most people. And yet there are many hundreds of worthwhile and reasonably well-paid jobs available just to keep the country ticking over.

Not quite sure what's happened to our education system, but something's out of whack somewhere.


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## Tasky (21 Aug 2017)

nev":3ee1yl54 said:


> Even the most mechanically challenged of parents should be able to cope with a lego or meccanno set to get kids building things from a very young age.


It's all computers now anyway, though. 
For example, what person would want to be a mechanic, when all that maintenance stuff we do today will just be downloading a software update from Tesla in the future... because "Electric Vehicles are the future... and the future is now"... and all that. 

That and, "It's all done by computers now, anyway"... 

TBH, if I'd followed my parents' teachings, I'd be an overeducated silly person who failed pilot school, didn't get into the RAF, didn't have a clue and, if I was lucky, end up driving a truck for a lifetime and myself into the dirt out the back of a pub somewhere while trying to impress someone... anyone... with my ability to spell long words, as a substitute for actual intellect. 

As is, I ignored them entirely, went for the Army instead and ended up working in Civil Engineering! 



Cheshirechappie":3ee1yl54 said:


> We depend on the treatment and distribution of water, the collection, treatment and disposal of sewage... All of that needs to be designed, made, installed, operated, maintained and periodically replaced


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Oh, you were being _serious_?  



Cheshirechappie":3ee1yl54 said:


> And yet there are many hundreds of worthwhile and reasonably well-paid jobs available just to keep the country ticking over.


But far more lower-paying jobs being given this work instead... And far more, higher-paying management roles to find the consultants to think up more red tape to hinder those doing the work, in order to justify the massive budgetary expenses. 



Cheshirechappie":3ee1yl54 said:


> Not quite sure what's happened to our education system, but something's out of whack somewhere.


It's all about teaching you to be a career student, with perhaps leanings toward business management and media studies, plus whatever else there's already too much of. You're trained for an industry of competition, not for one of any use.


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## Stanleymonkey (21 Aug 2017)

I am a primary school teacher. I have been in charge of DT in various schools for over a decade.

I recently did a staff inset after school. I asked how many teachers had had any DT training and only 1 or 2 put up their hands out of the entire teaching staff (from 1-30 years teaching experience!)

It's terrifying for an inexperienced DT person to let 30 kids loose with tools. Same as it is to teach PE for those who aren't into that. Same as it is to teach music or dance to a large group! Without proper training. It's then up to people to pick things up as they go along. Even if you know how to saw / drill. Teaching that to a 6,7,8,9 10 or 11 year old can be daunting.

I could on with a list of negatives.... might do later ; )

On a positive side - kids want to do DT, they want to use tools and make things. They would love the chance to do engineering projects. It is vitally important that they do. From life skills to developing coordination to mental health (I am being serious)

There is also opportunity in the primary sector. There are people who come in and do history days and RE days and sports coaching. Theatre workshops and music teaching. Budgets are tight for now, but I'm sure a company could get into schools and run DT days/weeks in marquees or taking over the school hall with portable benches. INSET day training for teachers after the kids have gone. Even offer an after school club that is paid for.

I'm sure there will be lots who disagree - but I'm trying to come at this from a different direction and believe me - if the problem isn't fixed at primary level, you'll have kids turning up at secondary who don't know what a drill is and are too scared to hold a saw.


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## Cheshirechappie (21 Aug 2017)

Tasky":1ak29rib said:


> Cheshirechappie":1ak29rib said:
> 
> 
> > We depend on the treatment and distribution of water, the collection, treatment and disposal of sewage... All of that needs to be designed, made, installed, operated, maintained and periodically replaced
> ...



Yes, I was being serious. Do you think the country would be better off without sewage collection, treatment an disposal?

With respect, I'd appreciate it if you read the whole comment again, instead of selectively editing it and making snarky remarks.


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## Rhyolith (21 Aug 2017)

Stanleymonkey":fh2d5m54 said:


> On a positive side - kids want to do DT, they want to use tools and make things. They would love the chance to do engineering projects. It is vitally important that they do. From life skills to developing coordination to mental health (I am being serious)


I second this! Teaching practical think streamlines the mind (certainly did for me) similar to how academia expands it and this helps with more or less every aspect of life. As well it shows those with vocational talent (who may well be struggling with academic style work) that they are talented (and not useless... which i see happening to a lot of students  ), the value of that confidence boost should not be underestimated. 

Even if we decided conclusively that practical skills are utterly useless of the the development of our careers and the country's economy, I think the above more than justifies a proper vocational education for everyone on its own.


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## Cheshirechappie (21 Aug 2017)

I wholeheartedly agree that some practical subjects should form part of a decent, rounded education, alongside academic studies, some sporting activity and a chance to participate in things like music-making and drama. The basics of literacy and numeracy are vital, along with some appreciation of world history and geography, but a narrow focus on academe won't allow everyone the chance to find out what they're good at and what they're not. The drive to send 50% of the population to university (and basically let the rest go hang) was one of the worst educational decisions this country has made in decades, I think.


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## Keith 66 (21 Aug 2017)

Quote' I'm sure there will be lots who disagree - but I'm trying to come at this from a different direction and believe me - if the problem isn't fixed at primary level, you'll have kids turning up at secondary who don't know what a drill is and are too scared to hold a saw. Unquote.

Secondary level? In my experience kids are already turning up at College to do A level never having held a file or hacksaw!
My son is at Uni doing electronics & electrical engineering, he said he was virtually the only one on his course who was already experienced in the workshop, this was not lost on the lecturers & technicians. But i have been teaching him & letting him loose on everything for years! So yes it is about the parents!


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## Rhyolith (21 Aug 2017)

Cheshirechappie":1g6c3yvj said:


> I wholeheartedly agree that some practical subjects should form part of a decent, rounded education, alongside academic studies, some sporting activity and a chance to participate in things like music-making and drama. The basics of literacy and numeracy are vital, along with some appreciation of world history and geography, but a narrow focus on academe won't allow everyone the chance to find out what they're good at and what they're not. *The drive to send 50% of the population to university (and basically let the rest go hang) was one of the worst educational decisions this country has made in decades, I think*.


I agree with this. 

I think of my generation around 40% have gone to Uni, this is double what it was in my parents day (1970-80s) at 20% (take stats with a pinch of salt, I don't know the sources). At that level I would say at least half the students at my uni were not suited to study academically (least to the the point of being useful or doing well), with many dropping out (these stats seem to be covered up by Uni's). Which is not surprising when you consider just how specialised academic work is, its for only a certain type of person. So trying to force 40% (let alone 50%!) through a system specialised in academia is stupid when you think about it... you need to diversify it according to the increased diversity of people your going to get. Not doing so is just a massive waste of resources and totally de-moralising for anyone who's not a perfect academic (aka most of us), so you end up spending a fair bit of money to get a demoralised workforce with minimal useful skill.



Keith 66":1g6c3yvj said:


> Quote' I'm sure there will be lots who disagree - but I'm trying to come at this from a different direction and believe me - if the problem isn't fixed at primary level, you'll have kids turning up at secondary who don't know what a drill is and are too scared to hold a saw. Unquote.
> 
> Secondary level? In my experience kids are already turning up at College to do A level never having held a file or hacksaw!
> My son is at Uni doing electronics & electrical engineering, he said he was virtually the only one on his course who was already experienced in the workshop, this was not lost on the lecturers & technicians. But i have been teaching him & letting him loose on everything for years! So yes it is about the parents!


I thinks its overly simplistic to blame just the parents... honestly I feel like most parents (including mine) simply don't have the tools ( literally and metaphorically ) to teach their children practical skills even if they want too. This was the case with me, i wanted to learn practical skills (openly asked to be taught... a lot!) and my parents wanted me to learn them... but they simply didn't have any to teach me. 

I believe it does fall on the education system to give children access to the vocational arts.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2017)

50% of kids go to university. 50% of kids are above average IQ, 50% of kids are below. Not all intelligent kids wish to go to university, therefore there are kids with below average IQ at university. :? Worrying, really.


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## RossJarvis (22 Aug 2017)

I'm surprised how restrained I've been on this subject so far bearing in mind how much I've ranted on about it before.

1, what do we mean by engineer? Is that a chair polishing eejit who's been through a degree course, or someone who can think through a problem and come up with a practical solution. I'm aware of the issues with calling "techies" engineers, but it's also an insult to some people who get their hands dirty and make things, just to consider them as "technicians" or something. These labels can often mean nothing. I know some "engineers" and studied engineering at university, some of my peers didn't even know which way to turn a screwdriver. (admittedly I retired early). Engineering at degree level leads to being the person who designs the securing nut on the left hand door-mirror of a Ford Cortina.

2, Training in practical hand skills has virtually vanished from the British Educational system. Before I retired early (for the second time) I also studied Design and Technology at degree level, one of the people on the course had a degree in food technology and two came from a fashion background another was qualified in glass-blowing. However several of us came from sound industrial backgrounds and a few of us were very able at making things. The concurrent PGCE course (post grads) were almost universally inept at practical tasks. About 40% of us would not move on into education as it is a most unattractive profession (all it's got going for it is the holidays and even those don't make up for the awfulness of the work days any more). D&T focusses on design and being the person who makes the best presentation of an idea. It does not look foremost at the practical ability of the individual.

3, Eventually, after retiring too often, I started teaching fitting and turning at a further education college. Occasionally I would have a student who wanted to learn the basics of making things and who was very bright. Occasionally I'd find a student who was often poor within academia but excellent at making things. A minimum of 60% of the students only got on the course because they weren't able to get on any other course. Practically no-one from school wants to do a practical engineering course because they either don't know what it is, or it is not perceived as attractive.

4, about 7 years ago the government tried to introduce an engineering diploma, for yr9 and above which had a lot going for it, after a couple of years it was dropped due to very poor implementation. The main reason being that schools and teachers had no idea at all what engineering was. The other reason being that "diplomas" did not have the cachet of GCSE's.

5, Training engineers costs money in a way that teaching history, maths, etc doesn't. Additionally to do it properly you have to select out the best and fail those who can't do it. As all state education establishments are now businesses who are not allowed to fail anyone it is impossible to teach anything where there is the risk of failing anyone or the risk of spending too much money.

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

One Solace we can have is that we had an exchange with some "practical" engineering teachers from South Korea. They had similar problems. Their main concern was that everyone there wanted to go to university and have a nice, well-paid clean job and didn't want to make anything either. At least when Britain collapses with no-one able to do a proper job, we'll be going down with everyone else in the World. We can sink into oblivion knowing the World has an overabundant supply of hairdressers, telephone sanitisers and PR personnel. Apart from the Germans maybe!!


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## Keith 66 (22 Aug 2017)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the truth of it, add on that the academy system has made the buisness side of it far worse, the costs of feeding the service provider cuckoo gobbling all the money mean less & less to be spent on pupils.
It was suggested earlierthat private firms might provide after school clubs. Its difficult to see how this can be done when budgets for such are non existent, we ran a sucessful one but we had to drop it as there was no money to buy materials at all. It was implied that i as the technician should buy them out of the goodness of my heart.
A recent article in the telegraph stated that half of all schools in England have dropped d&t as a subject completely this year already.


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## woodenstx (22 Aug 2017)

phil.p":nvya743m said:


> 50% of kids go to university. 50% of kids are above average IQ, 50% of kids are below. Not all intelligent kids wish to go to university, therefore there are kids with below average IQ at university. :? Worrying, really.




but IQ is by no means a measure of how clever or useful someone is.... 
Also, why should "below average" mean you cant carry on learning if capable of it?


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Aug 2017)

Of course it doesn't mean anyone isn't going to carry on learning - it just means there are people there who are awaiting failure at that level costing us (not them, they probably will never earn enough to pay it back) a lot of money. Would you be happy knowing your doctor, solicitor etc. had below average IQ? That of course is a redundant question - the ones with below average IQ have degrees tailored to their needs and expectations ... which ultimately are worthless.

Incidentally because it is relevant to engineering, here are some questions I saw on a GCSE maths paper a few years ago - 
1/ How many 50p pieces are there in £200?
2/ Write six thousand and eight in figures.
3/ What is 17 +14?
4/ What is 4 x 28?

This was admittedly a Foundation level paper (but still targetting sixteen year olds), but to any over a certain age a GCSE is a GCSE. I gave ten of the questions to my boy (at the time he was eight) - he got nine, I suspect he'd have got the ten if he was remotely interested, and asked why I was asking him stupid questions. It doesn't bode well for the future, does it? Why should England tremble?


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## novocaine (22 Aug 2017)

1/ How many 50p pieces are there in £200? none, they only had notes in the bank
2/ Write six thousand and eight in figures. 








3/ What is 17 +14? a sum
4/ What is 4 x 28? also a sum


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## AJB Temple (22 Aug 2017)

^^^couple of posts above
It depends on what you think the university system if for. I'm concerned that we are pushing teenagers into university on a false premise that they will have a better career later. We have a lot of young people coming out of second rate universities, with second rate degrees but first rate expectations. And significant debt. Those that accept that they will stay at the bottom of the income pile will not have to repay the debt unless government moves the goalposts again, but many are starting their working life with a large debt burden and fewer career prospects than they may realise (due to the bulge of graduates coming out of universities). 

The debate is interesting though. Before going to a highly academic school, I was at a school that did woodwork and metalwork. I loved my time in the workshop and I got exposure to making and fixing things at home. Financially it would have been foolish for me to follow a craft path, but I never lost that enthusiasm instilled in childhood. I also never forgot the kid who leant his arm against the spinning grinding wheel in metalwork class. That was my first sight of human bone!


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Aug 2017)

My nephew is a Kiwi with a First in geography from Auckland and shortly a Master's from LSE - he needs the Master's because he can't get a decent job in NZ with a first class batchelor's degree.


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## Rhyolith (22 Aug 2017)

I am very skeptical of IQ's and the idea of people being more or less intelligent than one another. Its an oversimplification of reality to the point of being an outright falsehood! People are good at different things, not simply superior or inferior to each other. 

On the subject of 'easy' GCSE papers. Why does this matter? I suck at maths and to be honest would have struggled with even an easy paper like that (& did). Yet now I have lived in the 'real world' for a while I have not found my lack of maths skill to be a problem in the slightest... indeed the only thing related to this that was a problem was the limitations imposed by my mediocre grades in maths. 

I think we have all become obessed with this prodigy culture and think every child needs to become a genius. Not just does this idea completly ingore reality, but its activity unhelpful for mainstream education.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Aug 2017)

Rhyolith":2cx3irq6 said:


> On the subject of 'easy' GCSE papers. Why does this matter? I suck at maths and to be honest would have struggled with even an easy paper like that (& did). Yet now I have lived in the 'real world' for a while I have not found my lack of maths skill to be a problem in the slightest... indeed the only thing related to this that was a problem was the limitations imposed by my mediocre grades in maths.


 Certainly - but you are not doing a STEM degree, are you?


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## Rhyolith (22 Aug 2017)

I don't know what a "STEM" degree is, so no!


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## RossJarvis (22 Aug 2017)

To get back to the original question, I'm a bit stumped as to how we'd get more engineers. There are many great flaws in the education system, which is not isolated from a lot of other things going on in society. 

As I mentioned, a fair amount of time, money and effort was put into introducing engineering at an earlier stage in education than has been done so far. Unfortunately this flopped. I think that we need a real change in education, particularly taking all the "financial-market target-reaching" nonsense out that's been pushed for far too long. Unfortunately the whole behemoth of "education" is like a supertanker at full chat and it would take a really great effort to change it's direction. Looking at yesterdays news it seems we are only just getting the standard of GCSEs to O'Level standard, how long ago was that change?

There are quite a lot of things as well as engineering, that require addressing, but the primary thing is the large amount of young people who aren't benefitting greatly from what's provided. At a wild guess I'd say roughly 25% do well through their school years and onward, maybe up to 50% are so-so and 25% are generally failed by a combination of the system, upbringing, society and everything else. Like many of my colleagues before I left teaching I felt tremendously sorry for all the kids who were being shafted by the system and treated as "Individual Income Units" rather than human beings. Particularly those who were very smart and good at practical things but not good at "getting the bits of paper".


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## finneyb (22 Aug 2017)

Rhyolith":3j3qpsji said:


> I don't know what a "STEM" degree is, so no!




STEM - Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths - Medics feel left out and have added extra M in some case which spoils the view.

Brian


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## Sawdust=manglitter (23 Aug 2017)

This thread has been an interesting read seeing everyone's opinions. 

In my industry the Institute of Civil Engineers do try hard to get school kids interested in engineering with things like an 'engineering taster day' which they will be holding at Swansea university for year 9 pupils which aims to introduce them to engineering and the variety of opportunities that engineering brings. The day involves building a paddle boat and testing it in paddling pool and building a bridge and testing it to failure. It also includes a session informing the pupils about different routes into Engineering and a tour of the Swansea University Engineering Department.

It was an event similar to this that got me interested, they came to our D+T department when i was in yr 9 where we had to build a bridge out of different pvc pipe fittings to hold as many bricks as possible over a span of 600mm. Apart from that, i personally ended up getting a summer job at a precision engineering factory when i was 16, and i learnt a lot! From there i originally applied to do mechanical engineering in uni, but ended up converting to do civil engineering during the foundation year. And talk about a massive difference in degrees, my degree was extremely difficult/intense with 25hrs of lectures a week and expected 30ish hrs a week of coursework, compared to some friends who did things like History with 4hrs a week of lectures and around 10hrs of coursework/reading!

In terms of the real world, when i was at uni what helped me massively was to get summer placements with engineering companies which taught me loads and developed my practical knowledge within the industry! Because of the practical work experience I had I was a much better engineer once I graduated compared to the geeky academic types who had never even had part time jobs. I was even told in one job interview that they would prefer to employ someone with a 3rd and life/work experience than some academic boffin with a 1st with no social skills or life experience.

My company at the moment do a kind of apprenticeship scheme where we have a couple of CAD technicians who do a part time day release degree over twice as many years as full time, but they will be infinitely better engineers (and earn more) than fresh graduates because of the practical experience they've had.

Apart from the lack of decent engineers in my industry, the other problem we have is persuading girls to pursue a career in engineering!


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Aug 2017)

Sawdust=manglitter":1yvrdxfk said:


> ... Because of the practical work experience I had I was a much better engineer once I graduated compared to the geeky academic types who had never even had part time jobs.



My friend's husband had a very successful career as a solicitor after going to to work for a solicitor as an office boy - it took him ten years to qualify, but cost him little. One of the very best bank managers my wife worked with started on a youth training scheme.


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## Tasky (23 Aug 2017)

Cheshirechappie":1ogodoc5 said:


> Yes, I was being serious. Do you think the country would be better off without sewage collection, treatment an disposal?


Given the level of customer complaints and newspaper reports, it looks like it's already getting by!! 



Cheshirechappie":1ogodoc5 said:


> With respect, I'd appreciate it if you read the whole comment again, instead of selectively editing it and making snarky remarks.


With equal respect - I work in Civil Engineering for a water utilities company. 
Our department comprising Engineers, Technicians, Asset Planners and such are the people responsible (ultimately, anyway) for the very design, construction, installation, (sometimes) operation, and in particular the inspection, maintenance and periodic replacement of sewers, pumping stations, rising mains, penstocks, flap valves, manholes, chambers, screens, dewatering plant, odour control systems and even the entire sewage treatment works of which you speak. 
That is the reason for the specifically selective editing and also the reason for the sarcastic and cynical response you interpreted as "snarky remarks". 

Yes, I'm laughing (or making "snarky remarks", if you prefer) at the idea you think we do our jobs so well, especially given our reputations and that of our regulator, let alone the layers of red tape management that prevent us from doing anything in the first place. 
Yes, I am entitled to make fun of something you seem to take so seriously, especially as I'm the one doing it. 
Yes, you should piddle off and get a sense of humour, especially since one seems to be an essential part of being an Engineer. 

Questions?


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## Cheshirechappie (23 Aug 2017)

Tasky":36jp8ak0 said:


> Questions?



Yes.

You hate your job. OK - but why take it out on me? Maybe you were just letting off steam, but it came across as you having a right go at me and my comment, which I feel is somewhat unwarranted.

I was trying to make the point that the country needs people with engineering skills, both 'theoretical' and 'practical' just to keep normal life as we now take for granted ticking over, and that our education system doesn't seem to appreciate the need to keep a supply of suitably qualified and motivated people coming through (though some people at the sharp end of education most certainly do).

Serious point - if you're that cynical about what you do for a living, it may well be time to change jobs. Trust me; I speak from bitter experience. It's also the case that the country is short of engineers, so it shouldn't be impossible to find another opportunity somewhere different. A change is often as good as a rest.


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## HappyHacker (23 Aug 2017)

I feel very lucky to have failed my 11+ and attended a good secondary modern school. The woodwork teacher canned you if you pushed your luck or if he was in a bad mood, but I learnt a good deal about woodworking. The metal work teacher came from industry and tried his best to get the better students into engineering, arranging visits to local engineering companies so that we could see what the different jobs entailed. He even got us into a steel works where we saw the blast furnace tapped, no H&S worries then so we stood next to the flow of molten steel running along a channel in the sand floor. Our blazers looked sparkley when we were under street lights later that night from the tiny globules of steel that had settled on them.

At a school reunion 50 years on the majority of us have done reasonably well despite attending a secondary modern which according to modern thinking were a dumping ground for the thick. 

While I did not follow an engineering career, I got into computers in the 60's, I have built on the skills taught at school and can turn my hand to most practical skills. In my most recent job as an electrician I see many young people who have difficulty changing a light bulb and who have a complete lack of practical skills but lots of A* A levels. I do know some youngsters who do have excellent practical skills but I think that is related to their parents interests and guidance.

On the IET forum the members are currently discussing the lack of Electrical Engineers with the practical knowledge to design installations that can be installed or even work.

I think we need a rethink of our education system but I do not believe that will happen as all the people who would drive a change see engineering as a manual dirty job which they do not want their children to get involved in. 

We'er doomed I say we'er all doooomed. (With a Scottish accent).


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## RossJarvis (23 Aug 2017)

HappyHacker":1qww0awe said:


> I feel very lucky to have failed my 11+ and attended a good secondary modern school. The woodwork teacher canned you if you pushed your luck or if he was in a bad mood, but I learnt a good deal about woodworking. The metal work teacher came from industry and tried his best to get the better students into engineering, arranging visits to local engineering companies so that we could see what the different jobs entailed. He even got us into a steel works where we saw the blast furnace tapped, no H&S worries then so we stood next to the flow of molten steel running along a channel in the sand floor. Our blazers looked sparkley when we were under street lights later that night from the tiny globules of steel that had settled on them.
> 
> At a school reunion 50 years on the majority of us have done reasonably well despite attending a secondary modern which according to modern thinking were a dumping ground for the thick.



Great point and good post. My understanding is that a lot of the ideas behind the Secondary Modern/Grammar etc system were very sound but a number of issues and British snobbishness made much of it go wrong, possibly under-investment/effort on the Secondary moderns. I've heard it compared to the still current German system where technical streaming happens earlier and technical types are appreciated. A bit like Blitzkreig, invented by the British but made to work by the Germans. Or as my German friend would say "see my nice and useful VW, here is my wife's nice and useful VW.......Oh, you have a Rover!!".


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## Tasky (24 Aug 2017)

Cheshirechappie":vx3a5kl1 said:


> You hate your job. OK - but why take it out on me? Maybe you were just letting off steam, but it came across as you having a right go at me and my comment, which I feel is somewhat unwarranted.


Yeah, I'm finding a lot of people on this board who really don't get it.... from jibes and jests, to basic, obvious wordplay and even puns, they somehow get all serious and start bleating about personal attacks, snide remarks and so on.... IT'S A FYKIN' JOKE, man... Worse still, even after I explain how it's a simple, non-personal joke directed purely at the humour in a word, they carry on thinking up ways to be all offended.... It's a pun - How does anyone expect me to believe they are personally offended and morally attacked by a pun???!!!!!
Moreover, how on EARTH was this, a disparaging and sarcastic jab at a specific area of an industry, in any way directed at YOU? Unless you are my regulator, or my manager, it has absolutely nothing to do with you....

OK, let me explain the joke, to those of you in the cheap seats... and those who are so cheap, you seem to have brought your own.
I do this for a living. I'm making fun of myself and playing on the bad reputations I and my entire industry have. No different to a postman joking about how bad the Post Office is, or a train driver complaining about how Network Rail are always late. 
Get it, now?
Do you see why this is _just _a joke, yet?

Now, if you still want to take *my* own self-deprecation as somehow being some kind of insult against you and start playing the victim over it, do it on your own time in the privacy of your own home, yeh? I have no time for special little snowflakes who sieze any opportunity to turn the spotlight onto them. 
Or you can just have a little giggle and carry on, as was the intent in the first place...



Cheshirechappie":vx3a5kl1 said:


> I was trying to make the point that the country needs people with engineering skills, both 'theoretical' and 'practical' just to keep normal life as we now take for granted ticking over, and that our education system doesn't seem to appreciate the need to keep a supply of suitably qualified and motivated people coming through (though some people at the sharp end of education most certainly do).


Yes it does, and no they don't, but since much of that is now an imported skillset (similar to nursing) it probably won't be worth focussing on until the roles they'd eventually (hope to) occupy actually pay a salary sufficient to make it a worthwhile career. 
Already they're trying to teach AI to do a lot of the inspection and assessment work. Once that's actually achieved, no Engineer will ever again need to make a decision based on Engineering Judgement. 



Cheshirechappie":vx3a5kl1 said:


> Serious point - if you're that cynical about what you do for a living, it may well be time to change jobs. Trust me; I speak from bitter experience. It's also the case that the country is short of engineers, so it shouldn't be impossible to find another opportunity somewhere different. A change is often as good as a rest.


Serious reply - I'm not an Engineer, I'm a Technician and a very specific one within a very narrow field of high specialisation. If I want to change jobs, either someone in the new position has to die, or I move to another country. As is, I'm one of less than a hundred who have ever held my specific set of qualifications, which took almost 10 years to attain, and there are only three such people in our company of about 8,500... one of whom has to be hired in. 
We are the Engineering equivalent of senior Nurse Specialists and we continue to do our jobs for the same reasons they do theirs, but just like them the mis-management and red tape is getting in the way. 

But if you really cannot stand my humour and want me to stop doing what I do for a living, just say so... 
I'd attempt another joke about how cynicism is another mandatory quality in Engineering, but I'd probably get a flippin' lynch mob chasing me for such an insult!!!!!


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## n0legs (24 Aug 2017)

Tasky":hgekyumb said:


> Yeah, I'm finding a lot of people on this board who really don't get it.... from jibes and jests, to basic, obvious wordplay and even puns, they somehow get all serious and start bleating about personal attacks, snide remarks and so on.... IT'S A FYKIN' JOKE, man... Worse still, even after I explain how it's a simple, non-personal joke directed purely at the humour in
> Get it, now?
> Do you see why this is _just _a joke, yet?
> 
> ...





Couldn't be bothered to quote your whole post.

Feeling better??
Reach in your bag for a tissue, they're there, down by your tampons. :lol: 

You'll get used to us :wink: 
Hi, by the way


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## Tasky (24 Aug 2017)

n0legs":3o4a6st7 said:


> You'll get used to us :wink:
> Hi, by the way


I'd probably be banned before you got used to me, though... decorum does not permit my usual blunt responses to such people!!

But still - Hi, how ya doin'?


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## Chris152 (24 Aug 2017)

This article's written mainly about low-skill jobs
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... tudy-warns
but it does make me wonder how long it'll be before 'hands-on' engineering is replaced by computer design and robotic realisation/ manufacture. Which could mean my son being glued to screens so much of his time is doing something right, at least with regard to his wish to become an engineer.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Aug 2017)

RossJarvis":1hg32iv2 said:


> HappyHacker":1hg32iv2 said:
> 
> 
> > I feel very lucky to have failed my 11+ and attended a good secondary modern school. The woodwork teacher canned you if you pushed your luck or if he was in a bad mood, but I learnt a good deal about woodworking. The metal work teacher came from industry and tried his best to get the better students into engineering, arranging visits to local engineering companies so that we could see what the different jobs entailed. He even got us into a steel works where we saw the blast furnace tapped, no H&S worries then so we stood next to the flow of molten steel running along a channel in the sand floor. Our blazers looked sparkley when we were under street lights later that night from the tiny globules of steel that had settled on them.
> ...



Aaannnyyywayy - enough of the hissy fits.  

A common fault (without going into the politics of the situation) was that in many areas there was no third alternative - no technical schools/colleges. 
I read a letter once from someone who was in secondary school during WW2 who maintained he was the luckiest of all with his teachers - his woodwork teacher was a retired carpenter and his metalwork teacher a retired blacksmith. Perfect.


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## Keith 66 (24 Aug 2017)

Well a bit of good news, just got sent our D&T class Gcse results, the best for years. They were a good class with some smart young people, maybe a few engineers or good tradesmen/women in the pipleine! So it looks like im still in a job for a while yet.


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## dcmguy (24 Aug 2017)

My dad was an engineer...became a planning manager ...helped with the build of manyof our nuclear power stations.
My mate's dad was an engineer...became a senior consultingpartner in a top 5 global accounting firm
Another mate's uncle was an engineer, had his own company, built some of the largest dams in the UK
Chap in our village is an engineer ..and a hydrologist ... consults to HMG on power power projects

I'm not an engineer, nor are any of the folk of my generation that I know, nor any kids.

Maybe there is a problem in the UK with engineers these days ..

So what is an engineer... the way Wiki choose to define it speaks pretty loudly ..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer

it takes the old 1960s characterisation and shifts it to today. 
Is a genetic engineer an engineer ?
Maybe Globalisation means that traditional engineers who build dams and power stations are probably going to need to build a career in large corporates and the work is global.

Taking a wide view there may not be a problem with engaging youngsters to engineering, but if we define engineers as 'industrial engineers' from the 1960s then perhaps there is a problem of reduced demand in the uk for that sort of work.

I guess if we define engineers to include research into power management and materials science to design & build 'batteries' and 'green energy' generation and then enhanced space exploration capabilities for harvesting resources from other planets (whether food or minersls) then maybe there's huge demand for engineers already or in the near future?


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## AJB Temple (24 Aug 2017)

Interesting reply from dcm. My eldest is at uni (not UK) studying aerospace engineering. The university is very focussed on materials science. Graphene etc. We are not great at this in the UK as much as we used to be perhaps.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Aug 2017)

My lad's got an "A" in physics, an "8" in maths, "B"s in biology, chemistry, geography and computing, a 5 and a "C" in English and ... Engineering - so not much danger of his becoming an engineer. He's doing "A" level physics, chemistry, geography and psychology - my wife commented that he'll know how to wind me up even more with "A" level psychology.


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## Sheffield Tony (24 Aug 2017)

I've been avoiding this thread. I'm an engineer (CEng) and get quite weary of the cyclic discussions in the IET magazine:

Why can't we attract more women into engineering ?
How can we get proper respect for our profession rather than being lumped together with Sky TV installers and City Engineers (aka binmen, in Coventry at least).
How can we get more young people to study engineering ?



Tasky":w94lkmmm said:


> bracspin":w94lkmmm said:
> 
> 
> > I do however wonder how we get young people interested in becoming engineers.
> ...



He's right you know. Engineering magazines often have articles from industry moaning about the difficulty in finding good engineers. Flick to the job section at the back, and see why.


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## Tasky (24 Aug 2017)

Sheffield Tony":1c529gzx said:


> He's right you know. Engineering magazines often have articles from industry moaning about the difficulty in finding good engineers. Flick to the job section at the back, and see why.


Our main employer recently applied Generic Role Profiling to all their staff. 
A senior chartered Engineer was reclassified as "Technical Specialist", a role that pays £12k less than what the previous title attracted!


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Aug 2017)

I don't how our local kids that wish to be engineers are getting on today ... the sixth form college's phone lines are down. :lol:


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## RossJarvis (24 Aug 2017)

Keith 66":22bgtmga said:


> Well a bit of good news, just got sent our D&T class Gcse results, the best for years. They were a good class with some smart young people, maybe a few engineers or good tradesmen/women in the pipleine! So it looks like im still in a job for a while yet.



Top job, keep up the good work and help yourself to a well deserved pint, ccasion5:


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## RossJarvis (24 Aug 2017)

Sheffield Tony":1dzkjesd said:


> He's right you know. Engineering magazines often have articles from industry moaning about the difficulty in finding good engineers. Flick to the job section at the back, and see why.



One of our local companies had a good idea (actually a fairly large multinational), they sent us 18yr + apprentices, who were paid 9 grand a year, sent to college for 1 year full time to start and then integrated into the workforce and at college over the next year. Accommodation was paid for, all PPE provided FoC. 2 out of 16 were ladies on my last year instructing them. How jealous they were of their friends who went to uni and left with staggering debts.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Aug 2017)

Different profession, but my daughter's friend went straight from A levels to work for KPMG -she's now a qualified accountant with no university debts. I felt pleased with myself - she applied for it after reading an article in The Times that I had pointed out to her.


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## roosaann (25 Aug 2017)

Engineers are kids who never stopped playing with toys. The toys just get bigger (or smaller) and a lot more expensive. The learning will come with motivation and education.


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## Keith 66 (21 Sep 2017)

Well we have started the new D&T gcse course with year 7,8 & 9, lots more theory, all the projects that we used to make to build skills with tools have gone out the window. Projects left have to incorporate learning such as electronics. Lots more demos & virtually no making.
Found out yesterday that the time allowed for the Year 11 final project is just 30 hours. That includes conception, research, planning, drawing and just 7 hours actually making a prototype. The build quality of a project is now not considered important rather the idea behind it.
So if kids want to make stuff dont do D&T!
Im not sure what to make of it only glad i havent got to teach it. I reckon the person who will have the most fun will be the technician!


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## Stanleymonkey (21 Sep 2017)

Keith 66":yefdawtu said:


> Well we have started the new D&T gcse course with year 7,8 & 9, lots more theory, all the projects that we used to make to build skills with tools have gone out the window. Projects left have to incorporate learning such as electronics. Lots more demos & virtually no making.
> Found out yesterday that the time allowed for the Year 11 final project is just 30 hours. That includes conception, research, planning, drawing and just 7 hours actually making a prototype. The build quality of a project is now not considered important rather the idea behind it.
> So if kids want to make stuff dont do D&T!
> Im not sure what to make of it only glad i havent got to teach it. I reckon the person who will have the most fun will be the technician!





That sounds ridiculous - lots of science has gone down the line of video clips and demos. But DT as well! How are they going to learn anything. That's just bizarre thinking.


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## Rhyolith (23 Sep 2017)

D&T basically = product design, which was its successor subject at A-level when I did it. Which is a more appropriate name for what it is these days... what is of course ingored is that most people doing that course actaully want to make stuff (or god forbid, actaully learn to make stuff :shock: ).


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2017)

Wasn't it C(raft)DT before that? When I did "A" level it was stiill woodwork.


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## heimlaga (23 Sep 2017)

I am 36 so I am young-ish. With a Bathelor's degree in construction egineering and know how to calculate the strenght of things. I have well over 20 years experience of building and repairing stuff. I have worked as a carpenter both building modern wooden houses and also shifting rotten logs in log buildings. I can make furniture as well as joinery. I know enough bricklaying to build a chinmey when needed. I can weld and forge and rebuild machinery. i have done some logging now and then. I usually repair my own car and tractor. I am somewhat accustomed to cirkular sawmills. I have shifted planks and frames and even taken part in shifting the keel on a wooden boat. I have repasired trhe laminate of a fiberglass boat.
Well......that sounds pretty good doesn't it......... but it makes me totally and eternally unemployable as an angineer.

They expect an engineer to be at most 24 years old. Solid upper class with a lifestyle that befits a high status job. Rich enough to not need the wage to uphold his lifestyle. Never a day on the dole nor a week ill in his entire career. The only desireable qualification is computer skills.
First and foremost he must not, that is MUST NOT have any sort of practical experience with the job he is going to plan or lead.

No wonder engineering is doing downhill and all development is focused on computers......


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## thetyreman (23 Sep 2017)

heimlaga":2euhwu7y said:


> I am 36 so I am young-ish. With a Bathelor's degree in construction egineering and know how to calculate the strenght of things. I have well over 20 years experience of building and repairing stuff. I have worked as a carpenter both building modern wooden houses and also shifting rotten logs in log buildings. I can make furniture as well as joinery. I know enough bricklaying to build a chinmey when needed. I can weld and forge and rebuild machinery. i have done some logging now and then. I usually repair my own car and tractor. I am somewhat accustomed to cirkular sawmills. I have shifted planks and frames and even taken part in shifting the keel on a wooden boat. I have repasired trhe laminate of a fiberglass boat.
> Well......that sounds pretty good doesn't it......... but it makes me totally and eternally unemployable as an angineer.
> 
> They expect an engineer to be at most 24 years old. Solid upper class with a lifestyle that befits a high status job. Rich enough to not need the wage to uphold his lifestyle. Never a day on the dole nor a week ill in his entire career. The only desireable qualification is computer skills.
> ...



it sounds like you have achieved a lot though, not many people could do all those things, no need to be so hard on yourself.


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## heimlaga (23 Sep 2017)

I am not hard on myself. I am very proud of my skills....... I just find it incredibly ironic that employers don't want an engineer with theese qualifications. Instead they want an upper class kid with no skills and qualifications whatsoever.

Isn't it ridiculous! Totally bloody damned ridiculous       

No wonder then that engineering is on a downward slope!


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## Ttrees (23 Sep 2017)

I was doing a brief turning & milling course a while back, but was unable to finish it, but I enjoyed it.
It may not have been a engineering course but it was a good start.
The only thing I couldn't understand was the mentality of the tutor...
I told him I wasn't suitable for the 9 to 5 because of various things.
He could not get his head around the fact that one might want to do their own thing.
I think he took it up that I was trying to be a wise guy, as I told him that I suffered fatigue and other stuff
and working on my own at whatever time, day or night at this profession might be suitable for me.
And maybe I might have said the steel doesn't care what time it is (hammer) 

Its a different age now where we can be who we want to be 
What's stopping anyone from learning ?
I think everyone has one good idea, that would make their lives easier if they made whatever article it be.
This in my mind is what engineering is.
I read here frequently about the folks that learned a lifetime of skills from the ol WW2 engineers who became tutors.
From looking and reading about old tools and factory's making them, plenty of firms started tool production after the war. 
These people were innovators with a necessity is the mother of invention attitude 
Its still a great day for the engineer if you ask me, things just need to be done differently than before.

I just know you have your eyes on some metal working machines Heimlaga, if you don't allready own some  

Tom


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## will1983 (12 Oct 2017)

I've just read this whole thread and I'm not surprised with some of the views aired. Most of which I agree with, the lack of female Engineers is a major concern though not as large as the lack of newly qualified Engineers with any practical knowledge.

I am also an Engineer, of the civil variety, and have been qualified for 11 years now.

I did an apprenticeship for 4 years which was mainly funded by a major civil engineering firm. This gave me a HND in Civil Engineering and lots of more valuable practical experience. The qualification is just the gateway through to the industry, the real skill is in the application of the theoretical knowledge. It is this ability to apply engineering theory to solve problems that makes a good Engineer, not a qualification.

As for how do we encourage young people to want to be Engineers, well education of what we actually do would be a good start.

When I first went to college after leaving school I chose to do A levels (this turned out to be a bad choice) the physics Tutor asked all the students in his class what they wanted to do with their futures. Everyone stated things like, Accountant, Banker, Psychologist, Criminologist with a coupe of Doctors thrown in. Finally it came to my turn, I said I wanted to become an Engineer. the Tutor responded with, "well thank god there is one person in this room that wants to do something worthwhile!" Read into that what you will but at 17 I was pretty shocked. The rest of the students in the room started asking why I was there if I wanted to be a mechanic? I think this shows that a lot of young people don't actually know what Engineers do. They assumed that Engineers should be dressed in oily overalls any rolling about underneath an old car. Funnily enough though I do actually like doing that!

As for how we go about changing that perception, I think this needs to be industry lead. We cannot rely upon the Government to do this. Experience days in real workplaces, presentations and engineering workshops conducted in schools done by Engineers working in industry I believe would be very worthwhile. The Institute of Civil Engineers organises these so to any other Engineers out there, stop moaning about the lack of Engineers and get involved!

Finally, on the subject of apprenticeships, anyone who I thinking of doing one or has a relative considering it read this. I cannot recommend this learning route highly enough but not all apprenticeships are created equal. Be careful when choosing which one to go for, some do not result in recognised formal qualification which you can take with you through the rest of your career. Do your research into the qualifications that the industry requires and which are recognised by the relevant institutions. For example, my HND which despite being a "proper" qualification is not actually fully recognised by the Institute of Civil Engineers to go straight to Incorporated Engineer level. I have got to gain accreditation at Engineering Technician level before I can move onto my Incorporated Engineer. (FYI this has now been addressed, the syllabus altered and subsequent years are now accepted, doesn't help me much though)

If anyone would like some more information on where they can get involved in promoting Civil Engineering to young people have a look here on how to become an ICE Ambassador;

https://www.ice.org.uk/about-ice/what-w ... ung-people


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## AES (12 Oct 2017)

+1 for "not all apprenticeships are equal" (or they weren't in my time anyway); and another +1 for "a good apprenticeship is a good way into professional engineering".

The stuff I learnt was actually, now I look back on it, aimed exactly at applying "basic knowledge and skills" to problem solving.

AES


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## Keith 66 (13 Oct 2017)

Now I look back on it said:


> Thats the problem, learning basic skills & problem solving have been thrown out the window. Those kids and parents that think they are going to make stuff are sadly mistaken. practical skills are no longer valued.
> Our new year 11's are full on in their project work, there are some great projects with pretty good quality products in sight at the end.
> They are mostly great kids who are an absolute pleasure to work with. They are the last ones who will do this.
> The kids doing the new course will get just one day to actually make a project. And so it will be blue peter style scissors, hot glue & duct tape.
> The sort of stuff they probably did at primary school.


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## AES (13 Oct 2017)

I presume you're a teacher Keith 66?

With all due respect to you and your many colleagues (really, truly), it's a fat lot of good all us boring old "f---s" going on bemoaning things on this Forum. No one of any importance is even going to read this thread, and I for one don't even have any kids.

Surely what's needed is for all concerned parents, and for all concerned teachers to be shouting out "it's all going wrong folks" to those that do matter

When I was a kid in school we had a board of school governors, and above them, a local education authority, including school inspectors (all part of the local county council). I guess things have changed a lot since then (I left school in 1961), but shouldn't you all be telling these people, or their current equivalents, that they making a mistake and therefore potentially ruining the country's future???

I repeat, I make the above comment with respect - I just don't know how "UK works" these days, but there must be someone who can be made to listen, surely?

AES


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## Keith 66 (13 Oct 2017)

Im just the D&T Workshop Technician. Our school is relatively small & has a pretty good set up of equipment compared to a lot of schools today. The D&T teachers i work with are the first to admit they have zero knowledge of woodwork & metalwork so rely heavily on me to teach them on the job as it were, Pity i ain't paid accordingly! Its quite normal in many schools for the technician to prepare materials do maintenance & ordering & have virtually no interaction with the pupils, he will just stay in his room. It would seem that many teachers prefer it this way. Im lucky that im accepted as a valued member of a team with knowledge the others simply do not have. So i get to do all the good bits but miss out on most of the bad, I would not be a teacher at any price!


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## DTR (13 Oct 2017)

Keith 66":2ftcl4t4 said:


> The D&T teachers i work with are the first to admit they have zero knowledge of woodwork & metalwork



How does one become a D&T teacher without any knowledge???


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## Tasky (13 Oct 2017)

DTR":1td47k9f said:


> How does one become a D&T teacher without any knowledge???


I'd guess the same way one becomes the line/project manager of a Civil Engineering department, without even knowing what an Engineer actually does...?
Woodwork is a *C*raft. This is D&T, not *C*D&T. 

Our school was pretty advanced, in that while we did get to use a couple of machines in CDT, it was mostly just an exercise in understanding machine manufacturing (and flippin' child labour!!), which then fed into Designer brands (and how they're often just overpriced tat relying on brand name) before covering the Technology side, which was exploring merely the concept of CAD and CNC type manufacturing - We had computers, but they were barely word processors. Things like the Internet and colour monitors hadn't been invented yet. 

We did have a craftsman who woodworked with the 6th Form guys, but we usually weren't allowed to touch anything sharp or hot or fun, or more expensive than MDF - We grew up thinking there was no other type of wood, and that you draw on it while someone else machines it to shape.


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## Rhyolith (14 Oct 2017)

[quote


AES":2ukh0eyy said:


> ... it's a fat lot of good all us boring old "f---s" going on bemoaning things on this Forum. No one of any importance is even going to read this thread, and I for one don't even have any kids.
> 
> Surely what's needed is for all concerned parents, and for all concerned teachers to be shouting out "it's all going wrong folks" to those that do matter...
> AES


I have often heard people saying that the leadership of the education system (in the UK) is a big part of the problem, mainly said leadership thinking everyone should be educated as they were. 

I don't really know how you change that. Obviously better leadership is required, but thats not a simple task however you look at it! Firstly you need to actually have the clout to effect change at the level, which i really don't think is doable unless you have overwhelming public support (i.e. a lot of people agree with you and are willing to say that publicly). Secondly you need to decide what "good" leadership would actually be, which is a huge debate in of itself and a big reason the first point does not (and probably will not) happen. Personally I think that all feels like a major lifetime project if I really wanted to make a difference and I have wasted enough time with the education system already. 

Something else that keeps cropping up is the perceived obsolescence of practical skills (metalwork, woodwork, etc), now I think thats debatable but lets for now assume that those skills are indeed completely obsolete. I would still say they should be taught in schools, not because you need them, but because that way of thinking (particularly problem solving) is very very very..... very useful! It does not matter if you never going to go near a tool again, what any individual gets from that kind of eduction is a life skill. I think mentally, people are healthier with a practical skill under their belt and healthier people mean healthier country (if thats more important...). 

----

Something I have assumed for is it health and safety is one of the other main reasons for the lack of practical skill taught, particularly in schools... at least its the excuse i always got. Would you tech teachers/technicians agree with that out of interest?


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## AES (14 Oct 2017)

I understand what you're saying Rhyolith, and sympathise to a degree. But I can only say that IF I had a school-age child, and IF I lived in UK, I'd be raising merry hell about the "reduced standards" that many have pointed to in this thread.

(And now I sound just like my Granny when I was a kid, 'cos every time I said "IF" she'd reply "The road to hell is paved with good intentions dear." And she was right of course. So perhaps I wouldn't be bothered to raise hell after all!)

But it does seem a pity that so many in this thread give concrete examples of current problems re raising new engineers but nothing seem to come of it. Or is that just "jaundiced me" again?

AES


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## Keith 66 (14 Oct 2017)

Health & safety is an excuse often trotted out for why something should not be done, this is something that often happens in other fields too.
In a school pupil safety is of high importance & im sure that many teachers & heads of dept have become horribly risk averse, this is often due to ignorance or lack of knowledge the other aspect has been the drive towards the academy system with hundreds of schools being demolished & rebuilt under dodgy PFI deals, of course the service providers only real interest is to maximise profit. This led to delberate wholesale scrapping of first class high quality tools, equipment & machinery in favour of substandard far eastern junk barely fit or often unfit for purpose. No matter, its on an annual maintenace contract & the schools will pay royally through the nose for the privelidge of leasing such rubbish.
Its still going on.


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