# Dado cutters..



## Anonymous (15 Aug 2003)

I watch the New Yankee workshop avidly, and dream of having a workshop the size of Norm Abrams with similar tools.

One tool he uses with startling regularity is the Dado saw mounted in either his table saw, or radial arm saw.

Now I can't find one of these for love nor money in the UK, I've heard a rumour that they are illegal in Germany, but if thats the case, is that the situation here as well?

I guess once I get my router table built, it won't be such an issue as I can do similar cuts in that when it comes to cutting tenons and lap joints, but now I need to have my curiosity sated.

Regards

Paul.


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## johnelliott (15 Aug 2003)

I'm virtually certain that no power saw that CAN be fitted with a dado blade would qualify for an 'E' mark, and as such could not be sold in the UK or anywhere else in the EU.
Americans are very fond of their dado blades but it seems like a daft idea to me. A half inch router can be bought for less than £100, and is far more versatile. For instance, stopped housings which are impossible using the saw/dado blade method
John


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## Newbie_Neil (16 Aug 2003)

Hi Paul

I too was dazzled by Norm and his Dado cutters. I spent a lot of time trying to find a way to cut dadoes without buying a radial arm saw. The cuts that Norm makes with the dado cutter in his table saw cannot be made with the safety guards in place.

All new UK table saws must meet EU legislation and a dado cutter can only be physically attached to a few NEW tablesaws in the UK. Because of the European braking systems using dado cutters become a big safety issue and it is not recommended.

You can buy a radial arm saw to use with a dado cutter. Fitting the Freud dado set to the DeWalt RAS DW720 requires modifactions to the saw. (Courtesy of the Freud technical department)

A dado set will cost the best part of 100 pounds and I think the DeWalt set is nearer 200. For no more money, and probably a lot less, you can buy a cheap router and have it set up just to use in a jig to cut your dadoes.

If you type in "router dado jig" on Google you will get pages of jigs. They are basically very simple to make. There are two types of jigs, one which requires a guide fitted to the router and, my favourite, is the one that has the router tight between two pieces of hardwood. You must ALWAYS remember to use the same router and the same bit.

I didn't use exactly this jig but I found them on Google.

Look at this one to get an idea of how the jig works.

Now look at this one to make it.

The only difference is that I used a 6mm mdf base so that I lose very little in terms of depth of plunge. The first cut you make will take out the 1/2" width of your cutter from the mdf, from then on setting the width is very simple.

I think Jester started me off on this route. I had a quick look at her site but couldn't find anything about the jig.

Cheers
Neil

Edited 25/7/11 in the light of further information.


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## Anonymous (16 Aug 2003)

Cimares,

You can buy a dado cutter set, from Machine Mart, for around £80, I think.
As long as your table saw or RAS has a long enough shaft you can fit them, but it is as John has mentioned, TS's made now will not take them, and if fitted with a brake, they say you should not use them at all, with the large revolving mass stopping in a hurry!.
If your saw will take them, like everything else, they can be very useful, when used properly, I use mine regularly on my TS and RAS, great for ploughing out a lot of grooves and wide rebates.
Check you machine/s to see if you have a long enough shaft, as the dado set when used to maximum width is over 3/4" wide.
Hope this helps.


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## Newbie_Neil (16 Aug 2003)

Hi Paul

I should make clear that I was referring to new saws bought today.

Woodtek is quite correct in saying that older table saws might well have the facility of adding a dado cutter.

Cheers
Neil


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## Anonymous (16 Aug 2003)

Newbie_Neil":3rutbkqq said:


> I think Jester started me off on this route. I had a quick look at her site but couldn't find anything about the jig.



Sorry Neil, I was _going_ to put up a page on the site, but you know how these things slip down the "Tuit" list...  There's this thread which has some details if that helps anyone.

Cheers, Jester


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## Anonymous (17 Aug 2003)

Many thanks all for the replies.. My table saw is only about 6 months old so I imagine its not going to be suitable for the Dado head.

I've been using a router for dado's and stopped dado's but the key thing that Norm is always using them for is the fast cutting of tenons and half-lap joints.

I'll take a look at the jigs and see if I can develop an adjustable jig that lets me cut tenons and half-laps quickly too.

Cheers. Paul.


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## DaveL (17 Aug 2003)

Hi cimares,

I have found some useful looking jigs for cuttiing Tenons with a router here:-

http://www.dewalt.com/us/articles/article.asp?Site=woodworking&ID=244

Looks like you could cut half lap joints with one  

I have not made one yet, but it is quite high on the list of things to make :!:


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## Anonymous (17 Aug 2003)

Cimares,

Having read your last posting, as you say your saw is only 6 months old, it will not take a dado set, which is a pity, as they can be very useful, as you noticed on the NYW. Yes I too like watching Norm, I know he's not everyone's cup of tea, but each to their own, I have learnt a lot for him, I have to say and his show is better than any UK show that I have seen!.
Right back to dado cutters and making tennons, as your saw will not take the cutters, it might take the 2 outside cutters, but no chippers, so its not worth spending £80 odd just for that. There is another way of cutting tennons on your saw with a very simple jig and as long as you have a decent fence and a good blade of 60 teeth, it works a treat. I have been using my jig that I thought up, today as I don't always want to set the dado set up and I can't fit the entire set any way.
I will put some photos up so you can see how I done it, it will be easier than trying to explain it. All you need is a few scrap bits of plywood a toggle clamp and a little time to make it, you can then cut tennons to your hearts content.


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## Anonymous (17 Aug 2003)

Cimares,

I have as promised put some photos up for the jig I made to make tennons, in the Gallery section under workshop jigs. The photos should show you how I did it, no doubt someone else has done something similar, but it works and you can cut equal tennons and off set ones as well.

To make the jig, you will see that it fits over the fence and as long as your fence is sturdy you will get straight tennons and that the fence is parallel with the blade. When making it to fit over the fence, make sure it is a snug fit with no side play, if its a bit tight, try putting some wax polish on it first before trying to ease it and then having it to loose.
As Norm says, make the shoulder cut first, then using the jig which must have an up right piece at the back, I am not sure if this shows in the photos. This will support the piece as you push it through the blade and it must be square with the table of the saw. When you have the piece of wood to be cut up against the support/stop, clamp it with the toggle clamp, this will make sure it will not move as you make the cut. If your fence has fine adjustment, this will make it easier to fine tune how much of the tennon is removed. When the first cut is done, turn the piece of wood around and make the second cut, if an equal tennon is required. Try the tennon in the mortice, if to tight, move the fence nearer the blade a fraction and use the jig to re-cut the tennon and then try it again in the mortice and so on. Once you have it just right, you can run all the wood through that you need and bobs your uncle. If anything is not quite clear let me know.
I have used this jig many times, making about 20 new kitchen cupboard doors and its worked a treat, but the tennons I cut were all off set, but it worked just the same. Just make sure you put a toggle or similar clamp on the jig, it will not only hold the wood to be cut OK, but also keep you fingers out the way of the blade. One final point, when pushing the jig to cut the tennon, make sure it is pushed up against the fence all the time and not allowed to move away, at the bottom of the fence at table height, as this will mess up the tennon and cut it undersize.
Hope this helps.


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## Anonymous (18 Aug 2003)

Many thanks woodtek, those pictures are nice and clear and a good example for me to work from.

I'll have a play next weekend and see how they work for me.


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## paultnl (25 Jul 2011)

I know this is an old thread but it came to the top of Google when searching for dado cutters UK. Although I understand the comments about the legality of using these, the Health and Safty page of greatbritishwoodshop would suggest that they 
are wrong. Sorry I cant post a direct link.


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## 9fingers (25 Jul 2011)

It is also incorrect to say that all saws sold in the UK will not take a dado blade.
There are several members here who have a modern table saw which is still available today which can take a dado blade.
And yes is comes to a halt in less than 10 seconds with a fully loaded 8" set. However, in order to avoid the wrath of the anti dado faction - I will not mention where to get one of these saws.

Bob


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## Karl (25 Jul 2011)

Or you could use a grooving cutter in place of a dado blade - safer as the sections of the cutter are "pinned" together 







Cheers

Karl

(with the same brand of saw as Bob.....)


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## paultnl (25 Jul 2011)

9fingers":276q8hus said:


> However, in order to avoid the wrath of the anti dado faction - I will not mention where to get one of these saws.
> 
> Bob



I don't need to worry about the saw, I got mine in the States and the manual even tells me how to fit them. What I am looking for is a source of a good dado set without breaking the bank.


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## Karl (25 Jul 2011)

I've got a set which is surplus (because i've got the cutter photo'd above) - i've sent you a PM.

Cheers

Karl


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## 9fingers (25 Jul 2011)

Does that mean you need a 5/8" bore dado set? 

Machine Mart part no 060620495 does not appear on their website at the moment
It is in my catalogue 2009/10 but may have been dropped. It is made by Freud so try their agents

http://woodfordwm.co.uk/ stock their own brand 8" set with either bore.

I can't link to the product but look under new semi pro machinery and then accessories under the table saw section. £50 plus vat

I have one of these set as well as a freud and am happy with both.

hth

Bob


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## Tusses (25 Jul 2011)

I had my set from the states (maybe canada) of thier ebay site.

Shipping to here is cheap and fast compared to the UK !

For the record, the Wadkin AGS 10 will take Dado sets and cutter blocks.

IMHO they are nicer and quicker to use than noisy dusty routers ! :mrgreen:


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## brianhabby (25 Jul 2011)

Always seems a hot topic, dado sets. I don't know about the law - I'm not a lawyer - but if a saw can be sold in the UK together with a dado set, then surely they cannot be illegal as some have indicated above, the firm would not be allowed to continue trading.

If anyone wants to know where to buy a saw that can take a dado set in the UK then look no further than the xcaliber saws under the semi-professional range at Woodford Woodworking Machines

regards

Brian


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## johnf (25 Jul 2011)

Or you could look at one of these witch will also take a dado
http://www.ukhammer.co.uk/gb-en/product ... lders.html


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## seaco (25 Jul 2011)

As far as I'm aware it is perfectly legal to use a dado head in the UK as long as it's for private use and not commercially other wise companies selling them would be in trouble, I have a Delta Unisaw and use a Freud dado set and it works really well but it does take a little time to set up probably as long as a router table but what I will say is it's a lot quicker than a router if you have a fair bit of trenching to do I can do a 2" trench in oak 1/2" wide in one pass try that with a router!

A dado is only as dangerous as the operator using it!

Look here: http://woodfordwm.co.uk/acatalog/Table_Saws1.html


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## paultnl (25 Jul 2011)

Now I am able to make the link
http://www.greatbritishwoodshop.co.uk/T ... fault.aspx


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## Alf (26 Jul 2011)

So ancient is this thread that I don't think either Woodford of the Great British Woodshop even existed at the time; fairly sure there were more recent discussions that are probably a bit more accurate in their information. At one time we used to have them just about daily.


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## Steve Maskery (26 Jul 2011)

Alf":2pjq45hl said:


> At one time we used to have them just about daily.



Ah, yes, I remember them fondly. But nostalgia isn't what it used to be, eh?
S


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## tomatwark (26 Jul 2011)

This conversation does seem to come up alot, it is legal to sell dado heads in the UK because they can be fitted to radial arm saws as well as a saw bench.

Scheppach sell trenching heads to fit their saws.

If you are using it in a saw bench you are susposed to guard it properly, which makes most of the things Norm does illegal with in industry.

Most commercial workshops have other ways of doing things which is easier to set up

If you want to copy Norm in your home workshop it is your business, but I suspect that one day someone who saw Norm do this will cut something off and try to sue Sky and the s**t will hit the fan.

Remember the Americans will not look at this issue too closely as they seem to think Saw Stop will solve all their safety problems.

Being in business I don't use a dado in a saw bench, although I do have one for my RAS.

Tom


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## Steve Maskery (26 Jul 2011)

FWIW I have shot a few sequences which discuss the problems of using dado sets. I'm not advertising it as I shall be lucky if it is ready for christmas let alone any sooner, but in brief:
Dados heads are a not illegal.
The problems are their guarding and breaking times, so if their use in a commercial workshop means that these other rules are broken, then that's what makes their use illegal, not the tools themselves.
I got the HSE to endorse my dado head guarding arrangements, and on a saw like mine (I, too, have the Woodford Xcalibur) then the weight of the blade is such a small percentage of the weight of the whole rotating mass of motor that the thing stops inside 10 secs even fully loaded. That would not necessarily be the case with a less massive saw.
Given the time it takes to set up the head, make the cuts and revert the saw to its initial mode, there is almost always an easier, quicker and safer way of achieving the same end result, usually involving a router and a jig. This is especially true in the home workshop where we are not doing production runs and so the setup time is high compared to the time spent actually cutting housings.

S


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## tomatwark (26 Jul 2011)

As this seems to come up every now and then, normally I guess when there is a rerun of the Great British Workshop or The New Yankee Workshop.

If you are willing Steve maybe locked thread is in order with the in's and out's of using one.

As I have said before I amazed that no one has had a nasty accident copying some of things Norm does on the NYW.

Just a thought

Tom


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## seaco (27 Jul 2011)

Steve Maskery":effmw475 said:


> Given the time it takes to set up the head, make the cuts and revert the saw to its initial mode, there is almost always an easier, quicker and safer way of achieving the same end result.
> S



Agreed if your doing small runs but for removing large amounts of wood quickly on a larger run you won't beat a dado I'm afraid four runs on a router can be done in one pass!


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## Alf Beharie (22 Apr 2015)

I found this thread when searching for dado cutters. I have just rang Scheppach and was told that whilst stacked dado cutters are legal for use within the entire EU (which includes the UK of course) they no longer make saws that can use them because they all have reduced length arbours. However they told me that "wobble" dado cutters are definitely illegal within the EU. Wobble cutters are where you have two blades that can be splayed at an angle to each other on a common arbour (Their teeth are close together at one point and 180 degrees away they are spread apart) and the cutting width can be varied via a variable dial in the centre which alters the splay angle...Norm Abrams showed one on his 2 part table saw guide for his New Yankee Workshop show. You can find both parts on youtube. Why one type is legal and the other is not?...I have no idea.


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## custard (22 Apr 2015)

Alf Beharie":ywui737u said:


> Why one type is legal and the other is not?...I have no idea.



I've heard that wobble saws have a greater risk of kick back, I've only used them a few times so don't have much practical experience. I see them used regularly on spindle moulders for grooving.

Incidentally I use a Felder saw which is as European as Weiner Schnitzel, and that takes a dado blade as standard with no alterations. Indeed Felder were happy to provide me with both a dado blade and a table insert to match, and I doubt they're the kind of company that goes in for reckless law breaking!


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## Steve Maskery (22 Apr 2015)

I don't know why a wobble blade is illegal, I didn't know it was, but the issue with dado blades is twofold.

First, they are more difficult to guard. Not impossible, a SUVA guard does the job, but most saws do not come with a SUVA guard. What usually happens is that the guard and RK are removed and the saw is used unguarded. That is not illegal (stupid, but not illegal) in a home workshop, but it is illegal in a professional workspace.

The second is blade braking. The blade must stop within 10 seconds. On a small saw, the extra mass of a full dado stack means that the increased momentum takes the braking time over this. On a more substantial saw, like my Xcalibur, the increased mass is a small proportion of the total rotating mass, so my saw still stops in less than 7 seconds, even with a full stack.

HTH
Steve


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## brianhabby (22 Apr 2015)

Dado sets are still sold with the Excalibur saws that Steve mentioned and are are available from Woodford in Stockport.

regards 

Brian


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## heimlaga (22 Apr 2015)

Maybe this is a similar case as the inspector who demanded CE- approval on my machines even though they are manufactured before the EU was invented and all guards are modernized to fullfill every modern requirement. By reading the law in a way that makes every kind of work illegal they make sure no accidents can do any harm to their own carreers. Being efficient in finding and stopping allegedly illegal work also helps them on their way up the carreer ladder.

Be it legal or not I like my fingers too much to ever own a table saw with the guard mounted on the riving knife. If there isn't a proper overarm guard I make one. Be it legal or not I would never own a table saw where the riving knife protrudes above the top of the blade just because it would be removed too often. A removed riving knife does not prewent kickbacks. 
I could imagine owning and using a dado blade if the braking mechanism is strong enough to stop it within 10 seconds. I assume that would be legal if the riving knife and overarm guard are in place the way I want them. I have just never needed a dado head. So far I don't make many enough carcasses with dadoes for the shelves to make it worth the cost of a dado head. When grooving along the grain my spindle moulder does the job.


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## Alf Beharie (23 Apr 2015)

heimlaga":uvugijj7 said:


> Maybe this is a similar case as the inspector who demanded CE- approval on my machines even though they are manufactured before the EU was invented and all guards are modernized to fullfill every modern requirement. By reading the law in a way that makes every kind of work illegal they make sure no accidents can do any harm to their own carreers. Being efficient in finding and stopping allegedly illegal work also helps them on their way up the carreer ladder.
> 
> Be it legal or not I like my fingers too much to ever own a table saw with the guard mounted on the riving knife. If there isn't a proper overarm guard I make one. Be it legal or not I would never own a table saw where the riving knife protrudes above the top of the blade just because it would be removed too often. A removed riving knife does not prewent kickbacks.
> I could imagine owning and using a dado blade if the braking mechanism is strong enough to stop it within 10 seconds. I assume that would be legal if the riving knife and overarm guard are in place the way I want them. I have just never needed a dado head. So far I don't make many enough carcasses with dadoes for the shelves to make it worth the cost of a dado head. When grooving along the grain my spindle moulder does the job.



I agree, why use a dado cutter when I have a perfectly good router table that can do the same thing only more safely.


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