# Shoulder plane technique



## Chris_belgium (24 Jan 2009)

Hello,
am planning to make a drive way gate later this year, and was in my shop this afternoon doing some 'testing' on how to construct the mortice & tennons.

I made a jig and used a router to rout out the waste, keeping about 0,5mm away from the marked line, the 'ragged' edge you see is actually the line from my marking knife.












Plan was to clean them up with my shoulder plane. But this did not go well at all!! Shoulder plane I'm using is the HNT gordon 1 1/4inch shoulder plane. Problem is, even with the smallest possible blade depth I still can't make a proper shaving, I get terrible chatter and have to use a lot of force to get the plane going. Best result was some dust being shaved off, nowhere near proper shavings.

I have flattened the back of the blade, sharpened the blade to 30°, I also noticed that after I tried it a couple of times, the blade edge was jagged, when I resharpened and got a nice straight edge, a couple of tries later it was the same story.

So what am I'm doing wrong? Blade not sharp enough, wood too difficult (aphselia) to plane for a novice like me, ....

Another question, is there a trick to avoid tearout at the end of the cut? Clamping a piece of scrap wood offcourse avoids this, but is 'cumbersome' is there a faster trick to avoid this?

Thank you for your time, Chirstof.


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## MikeG. (24 Jan 2009)

Christof,

I know I'll get jumped on for saying this, but I reckon you are using the wrong tool. I would clean this up by paring with a sharp chisel, working down from the outside of the wood onto the face of the tenon. 

Actually, because I use a radial arm saw to cut tenons, the whole of the cleaning up process is done by paring. In the extremely rare event that shoulders need cleaning up I would do as I have just described. The faces of the tenon, which are scored by the multiple cuts of the RAS blade, are really easy to pare very accurately with a wide chisel at a very low angle (with the worked face held vertically so that all the forces go down into the bench).

As I've said elsewhere, if I had a shoulder plane I am sure I could find some uses for it........but probably planing the shoulders of a tenon wouldn't be one of them. 

Mike


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## Vann (24 Jan 2009)

Chris_belgium":34foul23 said:


> I have flattened the back of the blade, sharpened the blade to 30°, I also noticed that after I tried it a couple of times, the blade edge was jagged, when I resharpened and got a nice straight edge, a couple of tries later it was the same story.



I'm no expert, but in lieu of any other suggestions, it's my understanding that edge breakout is the result of the iron angle being too low for the timber type/cut (I have no idea whether aphselia is hard or softwood). Maybe a microbevel at 32 or even 35 degrees will be enogh to reduce or eliminate this chipping of the cutting edge.

Is your blade O1, A2, or something else (A2 wears better but breaks out if worked too hard at low angles- O1 holds together better at low angles but wears faster).

Regards, Vann.


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## woodbloke (25 Jan 2009)

As Mike G said, a sharp chisel is the way to do this - Rob


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## Chris_belgium (25 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":3sn0jzx1 said:


> Christof,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 , wish I'd known this before I ordered the Shoulder plane 'ideally for cleaning up shoulders of tenons!'

So what exactly is the use of a shoulder plane then?


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## Chris_belgium (25 Jan 2009)

> Is your blade O1, A2, or something else (A2 wears better but breaks out if worked too hard at low angles- O1 holds together better at low angles but wears faster).



This is what the HNT website says about the blade: 'BLADE: 1¼ inch wide x 3/16 inch thick tool steel Rc 62-64' http://www.hntgordon.com.au/prodcat114sh.htm

The angle of the blade is 60°, so I think it being to low is not the issue here. I even tried flipping the blade around so it's sits at 90° but all I get is dust, no shavings.

Aphselia is a hardwood wich is very weather resistant, comparable to padouk,...


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## woodbloke (25 Jan 2009)

Chris_belgium":112mwnvm said:


> Mike Garnham":112mwnvm said:
> 
> 
> > Christof,
> ...


I use mine for cleaning up rebates etc. The problem with using it to do tenon shoulders is that the referance surface (ie the surface of the tenon) needs to be dead flat and square. If it's _not_, then there's a big danger that the shoulder will also be skewed. Much easier IMO to do shoulders with the widest chisel in your armoury...I use a 25mm LN - Rob


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## Philly (25 Jan 2009)

Chris
A shoulder plane is a perfect tool for cleaning up the shoulders of tenons - it is its main purpose.
Have you tried your plane out on long grain? Can you get full shavings this way? I have two Gordon shoulder planes and have no problems taking end grain shavings with them. To me it sounds like the blade isn't holding an edge.
If you can't take shavings with it then there is a problem with the plane - you have chosen the correct tool.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Chris_belgium (25 Jan 2009)

Philly":kuhfml6u said:


> Chris
> A shoulder plane is a perfect tool for cleaning up the shoulders of tenons - it is its main purpose.
> Have you tried your plane out on long grain? Can you get full shavings this way? I have two Gordon shoulder planes and have no problems taking end grain shavings with them. To me it sounds like the blade isn't holding an edge.
> If you can't take shavings with it then there is a problem with the plane - you have chosen the correct tool.
> ...



I quickly tried on long grain, can't get full length shavings, but the blade is jagged from my tries last night across the grain. I'll sharpen the blade again tonight and give it another try, any ideas as to why the blade becomes jagged so quickly after sharpening?

I also find it difficult to set the blade depth on this type of plane, any tricks on how to do it easier?

And last thing, are full length end grain shavings possible with this type of plane? 

cross grain





long grain, you can clearly see the marks from the jagged blade:


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## Vann (25 Jan 2009)

Chris_belgium":15r9okcr said:


> This is what the HNT website says about the blade: 'BLADE: 1¼ inch wide x 3/16 inch thick tool steel Rc 62-64' http://www.hntgordon.com.au/prodcat114sh.htm


The tool steel blade will be harder wearing, but also more brittle than O1 steel i.e. the tough steel particles at the point of the iron will break away more easily.


Chris_belgium":15r9okcr said:


> The angle of the blade is 60°, so I think it being to low is not the issue here. I even tried flipping the blade around so it's sits at 90° but all I get is dust, no shavings.


So the iron is _Bevel Down_ (I'm unfamiliar with HNT planes) and is set at 60°, but the iron itself is ground/honed at 30°. Being _Bevel Down_ the honed angle can be altered without changing the cutting angle of 60°. I suggest you play with the honed angle (try 32°, 35° or even 40°) so that the cutting edge of the iron is more substanial, and therefore more able to withstand the forces of a 60° attack on the hard Aphselia.

Cheers, Vann.


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## frugal (25 Jan 2009)

Chris_belgium":lxcj6uoh said:


> long grain, you can clearly see the marks from the jagged blade:



Just out of interest, how are you holding the wood that you are trying to plane? The photo seems to indicate that the end of the piece is not really supported by anything. The chatter could be coming from the wood flexing due to lack of support.


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## Ironballs (25 Jan 2009)

I've used both my shoulder plane and a wide chisel for cleaning up tenon shoulders, if your tenon has been cut accurately then the plane is the best tool for the job.

What I can't understand is why your plane iron is refusing to hold an edge and keeps breaking up. I assume you haven't used a higher speed dry grinder to form the bevel?


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## Philly (25 Jan 2009)

Chris
Crossgrain you will alwya get this kind of surface (unless you have a plane with a skewed iron like the #140). With the shoulderplane lying on its side onthe tenon you should be able to square up the shoulder by taking shavings (maybe clamping scrap stock at the far side to prevent it spelching). Yes, the plane should easily take end grain shavings - not dust. 
To me it sounds like the iron has been heat treated wrong and is not holding an edge. If you can take one shaving and then it stops cutting that is the definitely the problem.
The plane iron comes from Gordon ground at 30 degrees - this should be fine for your application.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Chris_belgium (25 Jan 2009)

frugal":2j7o909s said:


> Chris_belgium":2j7o909s said:
> 
> 
> > long grain, you can clearly see the marks from the jagged blade:
> ...



this is a test board wich is clamped to the 8cm x 14,5cm piece where I'm cutting the tenon on. So there is no flexing.


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## Chris_belgium (25 Jan 2009)

Ironballs":27fowxnk said:


> I've used both my shoulder plane and a wide chisel for cleaning up tenon shoulders, if your tenon has been cut accurately then the plane is the best tool for the job.
> 
> What I can't understand is why your plane iron is refusing to hold an edge and keeps breaking up. I assume you haven't used a higher speed dry grinder to form the bevel?



No only waterstones, there has been no heat involved.


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## Chris_belgium (25 Jan 2009)

Philly":18rz8w2w said:


> Chris
> Crossgrain you will alwya get this kind of surface (unless you have a plane with a skewed iron like the #140). With the shoulderplane lying on its side onthe tenon you should be able to square up the shoulder by taking shavings (maybe clamping scrap stock at the far side to prevent it spelching). Yes, the plane should easily take end grain shavings - not dust.
> To me it sounds like the iron has been heat treated wrong and is not holding an edge. If you can take one shaving and then it stops cutting that is the definitely the problem.
> The plane iron comes from Gordon ground at 30 degrees - this should be fine for your application.
> ...



Back from my shop, just spent over 45 minutes resharpening, started on 220 to get rid of the nicks in de edge then to 800, 1200 and finally 6000.

Didn't use microbevels, just sharpened/honed the entire bevel to 30°

Before sharpening:











After sharpening:






After some testing, maybe attempted (all failed offcourse  ) to make 30 or so shavings.






Immediately after sharpening, I tried some long grain planing, result was something that looked like a shaving, but still far from full length shaving.


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## Philly (25 Jan 2009)

Chris
The blade looks like it collapsing after a few shavings. I'd email these photo's to the dealer you bought the plane from and ask for a replacement iron (or plane!)
Cheers
Philly


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## Woody Alan (25 Jan 2009)

Very hard to tell from the pics and sequence but the back (face) of the blade doesn't look polished, if that hasn't been flattened in such a way as to remove the wire edge formed during honing that may explain the quick deformation. I would also want to hone a final microbevel (secondary bevel) to get the edge. It's asking a lot to do a full flatten through the grits on that amount of surface area on one bevel and unneccessary.
Without wishing to be rude (hard to avoid on a forum ) how much experience have you had sharpening plane blades? I think some local assistance could be useful certainly if nothing else other than to confirm the inadequacy of the blade.
By the way it looks as if you are planing an old piece of wood which has a finish on it (or dirty) that certainly won't help.

Alan


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## Oryxdesign (25 Jan 2009)

Is that Iroko that you are planing?


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## ivan (26 Jan 2009)

Philly, why does a shoulder plane (designed to plane end grain) have a 60 deg bed angle? When shooting end grain (a similar cut) with my No 9 I give the "bevel up" blade a 10 deg back bevel, so the bedding angle is effectively 10 deg, with the sharpening bevel at 30 deg, effectively 20 deg lower than the Gordon.


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## Karl (26 Jan 2009)

ivan":2qm94guk said:


> Philly, why does a shoulder plane (designed to plane end grain) have a 60 deg bed angle? When shooting end grain (a similar cut) with my No 9 I give the "bevel up" blade a 10 deg back bevel, so the bedding angle is effectively 10 deg, with the sharpening bevel at 30 deg, effectively 20 deg lower than the Gordon.



Ivan - I think that all HNT Gordon planes have a bed angle of 60 degrees, to avoid tearout on difficult aussie timbers. 

If you are sharpening your No9 with a 30 deg bevel, surely the effective pitch will still be 50 deg? The 10 deg back bevel is irrelevant to the EP (in a BU plane). Or am I misunderstanding something?

Cheers

Karl


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## Philly (26 Jan 2009)

Ivan
As Karl said, Terry Gordons planes are all high angle to deal with the super cranky Oz timbers. In theory, a shoulder plane would be ideally a low angle plane as its function is to cut end grain. But here I learned something - a 60 degree high angle plane works perfectly at this. Sometimes established wisdom isn't the full story.
So to your #9. The bed is 20 degrees, you are sharpenening at 30 degrees. That gives you an effective pitch of 50 degrees, higher than a regular bench plane. Again Karl is right - on bevel UP planes a back bevel has no effect on altering the effective pitch as it is on the rear of the cutting edge when planing. On a bevel down plane the back bevel would be facing upwards, lowering the effective pitch. Hope this makes sense?

As you can see, your #9 is actually a high angle plane. And it too is designed for working end grain. The benefit of having the bevel facing up in this plane is that the iron is supported by the bed right up to the sole - check a bevel down plane and you'll see that the iron can only be supported up to the start of the bevel. This gives bevel up planes an addition 3 or 4 mm of support in the most important area of the bed, directly behind the cutting edge. 
Does this make a huge difference in the "real world"? Maybe not a huge difference, but the old time planemakers like Norris, Spiers, etc, all thought it was worth doing on speciality planes designed for end grain work.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## matthewwh (26 Jan 2009)

Looking at the photo's what you have there is a very nice rebate plane, which is for cutting rebates across or along the grain. A shoulder plane is a different animal entirely and has the blade bedded at a low angle and installed with the bevel facing up. A shoulder plane needs to have a tight mouth, so inverting the blade in your rebate plane won't work as you will be left with a chasm rather than a slit. 

RC62-64 sounds a bit too hard for most carbon steels I have come across, most of which switch from tough to brittle at around RC61, A2 takes some seriously advanced hardening techniques to get it that hard. A secondary bevel at say 35 degrees may well be enough to correct the chipping problem and in a bevel down plane this will have no effect on the geometry of the cut. I wouldn't recommend re-tempering it yourself unless you know the type of steel. O1 tempers at 200 whereas EN49 tempers at 100, so if you bring EN49 up to 200 it will be too soft.

At the end of the day, if it was sold to you as a shoulder plane, it isn't one, so I'd send it back and ask for one that is.

Cheers,

Matthew


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## Karl (26 Jan 2009)

I disagree Matthew.

I own and use two Shoulder planes of this type, blade bedded at 60 degrees. They work fantastically. I also own a Veritas Medium Shoulder plane, which works equally well. 

With the blade inserted bevel down, the planes have a very tight mough. You can reverse the blade and use it as a mini scraper, but I don't think that anybody is advocating that as a means for planing tenon shoulders.

I think the problem here is the blade. If I were Chris i'd get in contact with the company from where the plane was bought and ask for either a replacement blade or a replacement plane. If that fails, contact Terry Gordon at http://www.hntgordon.com.au. I have had great service from him in the past in answering any queries I have regarding his planes.

Hope you get it sorted soon Chris.

Cheers

Karl


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## Chris_belgium (26 Jan 2009)

Hello, thank you for all the replies.

I have very little experience in sharpening blades, just starting out in the world of hand tools. That's why I sharpened/honed the entire bevel. It was advised to me to not use a micro bevel since it is kind of a shortcut, and since I'm a novice, to sharpen/hone the entire bevel and as I progress, then start using microbevels,... I have done it this way on my stanley 4 and got very good results with it, I could plane end grain effortless. A world of difference as the result I'm getting with this plane.

I have bought the plane directly from HNT, and have not contacted them about this, as I'm still suspecting it's something I'm doing wrong and not the plane. I'll give it one last try and sharpen ti with a microbevel this time. If it still get's the same result I'll contact them and ask their advice.


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## Chris_belgium (26 Jan 2009)

Woody Alan":2l34k15q said:


> By the way it looks as if you are planing an old piece of wood which has a finish on it (or dirty) that certainly won't help.
> 
> Alan



This was just piece of offcut I was using to test long grain planing. The tenon shoulder end grain I was trying to plane was freshly routed so no dirt on that.


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## Chris_belgium (26 Jan 2009)

Oryxdesign":35id2463 said:


> Is that Iroko that you are planing?



It's aphselia doussie.


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## Chris_belgium (26 Jan 2009)

karl":1g6jjtwl said:


> I disagree Matthew.
> 
> I own and use two Shoulder planes of this type, blade bedded at 60 degrees. They work fantastically.
> Karl



Would you mind telling me how and at what angles the bevel, micro bevel, back bevel are sharpened?


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## Karl (26 Jan 2009)

Chris

Your blade will probably have a primary grind of 25 degrees. I then hone a secodary bevel at 30 degrees. I don't use a back bevel. But it is important to polish the back of the blade once you have honed the sharpening angle. This will remove the burr raised at the sharpening stage. 

There is a recent thread giving excellet details on how to sharpen - I will have a look for it. 

Also, check out the HNT website for details on how to sharpen.

Cheers

Karl


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## Chris_belgium (26 Jan 2009)

karl":1dsija5v said:


> Chris
> 
> There is a recent thread giving excellet details on how to sharpen - I will have a look for it.
> 
> ...



I know, I started it


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## Karl (26 Jan 2009)

Chris_belgium":1s5osb08 said:


> karl":1s5osb08 said:
> 
> 
> > Chris
> ...



:lol:


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## Chris_belgium (26 Jan 2009)

just back from my shop, tried honing the bevel at 30 and then a secondary bevel at 35, but no luck, after a couple of 'shavings' there were already some pieces broken off from the edge. I'll mail HNT and ask their advice.


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## Mr Ed (26 Jan 2009)

Chris_belgium":u7iodg5b said:


> Oryxdesign":u7iodg5b said:
> 
> 
> > Is that Iroko that you are planing?
> ...



Although I have never used it I believe Doussie to be a bit of a nightmare to plane, so you're not giving yourself an easy ride developing technique on a timber like that.

I would try something with a nice fine grain that works easily- how about cherry?

Cheers, Ed


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## Chris_belgium (26 Jan 2009)

EdSutton":1vc3cjkr said:


> Chris_belgium":1vc3cjkr said:
> 
> 
> > Oryxdesign":1vc3cjkr said:
> ...



When I was practising sharpening with my stanley 4, I did succeed in full length end grain shavings with not that much effort on this wood, so don't think that it's the wood that's the cause of this problem.


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## JeremyM (27 Jan 2009)

Chris I have a HNT shoulder plane and have experienced similar problems of poor performance despite a sharp finely set blade. Examination showed the sole had lost flatness and the front/rear parts were not co-planar. Some careful flattening with 240 then 400g wet and dry on plate glass restored its function.
I guess our humid conditions and my unheated garage isnt ideal but strangely I have had little problem with my block plane or smoother with wood movement.

Jeremy


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## graween (28 Jan 2009)

Hi.

Well the fact that these planes soles are in metal, might also be reason. Metal moves also, and brass is known (If I remember well, not sure) to be moving. Mixed wood and brass could explain distortion. Even if when cold metal shrink, and wood grows (because low temp = higer humidity), as the revers occurs when it's hot, which should compensate each others maybe.
Don't really know.

However Gordon planes have good reputation, I'm surprised that you guys have these troubles ...


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## Chris_belgium (28 Jan 2009)

I can see how that would lead to the plane not producing fine shavings, but the broken down edge on the blade, could that also be caused by this?


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## graween (28 Jan 2009)

Hi Chris.

don't you have a spare blade, or a blade of another plane that you could swap into this one to make a test ?
That could help you find out if it comes from the blade or the plane.

Hope this help. I'm in france, but to far from belgium to bring you one (if you nick name is relevant biensur).


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## ivan (28 Jan 2009)

Ordinarily Philly et al. would be right, but the 10 deg back bevel on my No 9 allows honing at 20 deg (so blade is sharp at 10 +20 = 30) The effective bed angle is reduced to 10 deg, the shaving being lifted to 40 deg, 20 deg lower than the Gordon. The low 'angle of attack' makes end grain easy to cut, with long continuous shavings. But there, I haven't used difficult Aussie timber; all the same, I find it hard to get to grips with the idea of 60 deg for end grain; with the grain, yes, but shoulders? I shall have to have a play with a spare blade!


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## Philly (28 Jan 2009)

Ivan 
You'd be amazed - a sharp blade is the most important thing.

As for the back bevel thing - remember, the wood only "sees" the upper surface of the iron. The rear of the blade (be it the bevel of a bevel down or the "back" of a bevel up plane) is invisible to the wood and, as long as you have about 10 degrees of relief, it matters not what angle you grind it to. It's the upper surface that does the cutting.
Cheers
Philly


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## JeremyM (28 Jan 2009)

I think its the terrible chatter you describe which is causing the blade damage and its the cause of the chatter that needs understanding. Finely set and well tuned this plane needs remarkably little force to cut across the grain and HNT irons stand up pretty well to tough woods. I'm sure Terry Gordon wouldnt mind an email from you and would help resolve this quickly. 

Jeremy


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## dunbarhamlin (29 Jan 2009)

Ivan":1amqs77l said:


> the 10 deg back bevel on my No 9 allows honing at 20 deg (so blade is sharp at 10 +20 = 30) The effective bed angle is reduced to 10 deg [_and the EP_] to 40 deg


I think that's quite ingenious. With an O1 blade you could drop that EP into the realms of an unjigged bench chisel.
Unfortunately not particularly useful on a LA block (could only lower EP by 5° without making the edge more acute) but great for BU planes with higher bed angles.


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## Philly (29 Jan 2009)

D
No, it doesn't work like that on bevel up planes. As I said, its only the upper surface that the wood sees - in this instance all the back bevel is doing is increasing the amount of relief behind the cutting edge. 
Philly


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## graween (29 Jan 2009)

Hi,
On bevel up planes tuned for end grain. If you grind a bevel at 20° instead of 25 (angle at which the blade often comes from factory) it might help to grind a 5° back bevel. Because this give you as pointed by Philly a lower angle but helps having a stronger edge.
That gives you about 7° of relief, and an overall edge angle of 25°, with on a 12° bed gives a effetive angle of 32°.

Garette Hack even recommend for soft woods to lower to 15° (with 5 back bevel).
I have a plane that I want to set like this, but never had time to.


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## dunbarhamlin (29 Jan 2009)

a) relief
b) back bevel
c) bevel angle
d) edge - the backbevel thickens (ie strengthens) this.
e) effective pitch
and the one I forgot to label, the bed angle, is that between the red lines

Without the back bevel, to have an edge with the same durability would need a steeper bevel angle (c) - like dropping concord's nose.


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## Philly (29 Jan 2009)

Yes, thats about it. Been going to do a diagram, but you beat me to it :lol: 

The only thing the wood "sees" is the effective pitch. With a paring chisel you can lower the angle for a easier cut (obviously trading off edge durability) You can compare the back of a chisel with the sole of a plane and the bevel of the chisel with the upper surface of the iron in a plane. Putting a back bevel on a bevel up plane doesn't alter the effective pitch, and does not make for an easier cut like a paring chisel. 
In the diagram angle "E" is the cutting angle - altering "B" has no effect on the effective pitch.

Philly


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## dunbarhamlin (29 Jan 2009)

Philly":1tuztrtj said:


> In the diagram angle "E" is the cutting angle - altering "B" has no effect on the effective pitch.


Agree. Cutting bevel angle (and therefore EP) _can_ be reduced _if_ a back bevel is used, but the back bevel does not itself reduce the EP.

My unjigged bench chisel would have a bevel of 30°

Given a BU plane with a 20° bed and decent O1 iron:
minimum relief angle of 7°
minimum edge angle of 20°
Maximum backbevel is bed angle - relief angle = 13°
So to keep a 20° edge, the cutting bevel = 7°

So lowest EP achievable with 20° edge = bed angle + cutting bevel = 27°
That's lower than my bench chisel used flat against the surface.

(A 15° edge gives a minimum EP of 22° - which _is_ (near enough) paring territory - this'd really be using it as a BD plane - doubt it's practicable, but might be amusing to try  )


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## woodbloke (29 Jan 2009)

Philly":2ql7wtip said:


> Yes, thats about it. Been going to do a diagram, but you beat me to it :lol:
> 
> The only thing the wood "sees" is the effective pitch. With a paring chisel you can lower the angle for a easier cut (obviously trading off edge durability) You can compare the back of a chisel with the sole of a plane and the bevel of the chisel with the upper surface of the iron in a plane. Putting a back bevel on a bevel up plane doesn't alter the effective pitch, and does not make for an easier cut like a paring chisel.
> In the diagram angle "E" is the cutting angle - altering "B" has no effect on the effective pitch.
> ...


Philly is quite right. With a *BU* configuration, honing a so called 'back bevel' *on top of* the existing one increases the effective pitch, ie the angle that the timber actually sees, putting on the underside (the flat part) don't. Thus if the bed angle is 12deg and the blade is honed at 28deg, the effective pitch is 40deg. To make the EP into say 70deg (which is sometimes the EP on a BD cofiguration, where the back bevel is honed on the reverse side) an additional bevel of 30deg would need to be honed - Rob


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## Philly (30 Jan 2009)

Was reading through "Classic Hand Tools" by Garrett Hack last night - on page 112 there is a diagram labelled "bevel angles". The fourth diagram (on the bottom) displays a bevel up blade and shows a back bevel. It says "a 5 degree back bevel doesn't change the cutting dynamics but makes the edge more durable".
Hope that clears that up :wink: 
Philly


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## dunbarhamlin (30 Jan 2009)

Now I'm confused. Sounds like we all agree. The back bevel makes the edge more durable by rendering the edge "thicker" or less acute. This could alternatively be used to allow a shallower primary/upper/cutting bevel.
Just like concorde's nose. It's the same pointiness (and so similarly durable) no matter what angle it is at.


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## frugal (30 Jan 2009)

dunbarhamlin":2nwxuw26 said:


> Now I'm confused. Sounds like we all agree. The back bevel makes the edge more durable by rendering the edge "thicker" or less acute. This could alternatively be used to allow a shallower primary/upper/cutting bevel.
> Just like concorde's nose. It's the same pointiness (and so similarly durable) no matter what angle it is at.



But if concorde flies at mach 2 with the nose down it snaps off, thus making the worlds fastest convertable 

<wonders>


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## woodbloke (30 Jan 2009)

frugal":2pfz6gxw said:


> dunbarhamlin":2pfz6gxw said:
> 
> 
> > Now I'm confused. Sounds like we all agree. The back bevel makes the edge more durable by rendering the edge "thicker" or less acute. This could alternatively be used to allow a shallower primary/upper/cutting bevel.
> ...


... _used_ to fly  at Mach 2 - Rob


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## dunbarhamlin (30 Jan 2009)

woodbloke":26zm7ojp said:


> frugal":26zm7ojp said:
> 
> 
> > dunbarhamlin":26zm7ojp said:
> ...


That's why it had a backbevel and lower EP in supersonic flight  
Only had issues in high EP mode :twisted:


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## Philly (30 Jan 2009)

Apologies, D. Yes, we do agree
Philly


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## dunbarhamlin (30 Jan 2009)

Maybe my mates are right - my prose really is clearer after translation from English to Russian to Chinese and back to English using Babelfish.
(The devils even tried to prove it once)


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## Chris_belgium (13 Feb 2009)

I have contacted the people at HNT and Terry promptly send me a new blade, great service, but to my surprise the problem still wasn't solved.

I can get full lenght long grain shavings but not thinner than 0,3mm, I then checked the flatness of the sole with a straight edge and the sole in front of the blade is not level with the sole behind the blade, could this be the source of my problems or is this as it should be? 

attempted to make a picture:


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## Steve Maskery (13 Feb 2009)

Ouch! That doesn't look right to me.
S


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## Ironballs (13 Feb 2009)

That looks like a good candidate for the problem to me, go back to HNT, I'm sure they'd be happy to have a look


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## Modernist (14 Feb 2009)

There still seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings here to me.

Whilst the sole is a problem I think the sharpness of the blade is the main issue, especially looking at the shavings in and early pic.

The honing angle of 30 deg is not a "microbevel"! it is the standard honing angle. The blade should be honed to about 5 deg steeper than the grinding angle to give a stronger edge than a single bevel. This may be about 20 thou wide in old money. Before all of that the back of the blade needs to be honed to a fine polish.

This is basic stuff but it doesn't seem to have been bottomed here.

Combine that preparation with a fine cut and see where that takes us.

Brian


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## Chris_belgium (14 Feb 2009)

Modernist":2kr87d58 said:


> There still seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings here to me.
> 
> Whilst the sole is a problem I think the sharpness of the blade is the main issue, especially looking at the shavings in and early pic.
> 
> ...



I have tried both, a fully sharpened 30° bevel without microbevel, but also a 30° bevel with a 5° microbevel. Neither worked, the new blade I have recieved from HNT was sharpened by them and was razor sharp, but still no succes.

I tried to get a fine cut, but cannot get a shaving thinner than 0,3mm, if I retract the blade more (checked with feeler gauge) the blade does not touch the wood anymore.


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## Modernist (14 Feb 2009)

You've still got more than one problem then.

If the thinnest shaving you can get is 0.3mm that is at least 10 times too thick. This is why you are churning up the tenon. If the sole is not flat then this could be the cause but a run up some wet and dry should flatten it (with the blade secured but backed away from the working position. You should not have to do this on a plane of this quality so I would return it to HNT.

Separately, why is the edge breaking up. This should simply not happen irrrespective of the other problems if it is ground to 25 deg and honed to 30.

What happens if you try to use it with the grain on some easy timber like pine?

Brian


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## ivan (23 Feb 2009)

During the course of discussion there seems to have been some misunderstanding of my use of the term "back bevel". This is usually seen on the top of a (bevel down) iron to increase the effective pitch from 45 deg to say 55 deg (10 deg backbevel).

A backbevel on a bevel down iron will be underneath, and reduce the clearance angle. This allows you to sharpen the normal (bevel up, or top,) bevel 10 deg less, and so _lower_ the effective pitch by 10 deg making end grain easier to cut.

I am still a little bemused that a high effective pitch of 60 deg (however obtained) is _necessary_ for cutting _end _grain, however interlocked. With grain rebates, yes, but tenon shoulders?


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## PaulO (24 Feb 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I repeat something someone else has said.

If you cannot set less than a .3mm shaving then you are not going to successfully cut the end grain. I am going to assume you are happy with adjusting the blade position and that that isn't the problem.

You probably need to lap the bottom of the shoulder plane with the blade in place. Most shoulder planes (including LN) are ground without a blade and the geometry of the shoulder plane means that blade clamping deflects the sole. This leads to a bump behind the mouth and you will never be able to take a shaving thinner than this bump.

David Charlesworth's new DVD covers setting up and using shoulder planes (including the sole lapping). He agrees with Mike and Rob that the chisel is the right tool for trimming shoulders, as a shoulder plane will leave a step in the edge of the adjacent shoulder.

Incidentally the new DVD also covers sharpening and using a back bevel.

Doussie is a very hard and abrasive wood, which contains lots of mineral inclusions. These will rapidly dull a sharp blade in the same way Iroko will. DC has a few workbenches with Doussie tops, and he told me that he could only take 8ft of shavings before the blade needed resharpening. Sounds incredibly boring to me.

So to sum up:
- You need to do something to your shoulder plane to take about 0.03mm shavings before you can expect to trim end grain.
- Almost all shoulder planes require some sole lapping when you have set a blade tension you are happy with.
- Doussie is a pipper to work and will blunt your tools.
- Shoulder planes shouldn't be used to trim shoulders.


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## Chris_belgium (1 Mar 2009)

Victory at last  , flattened the sole on a piece of glass, first 80 grit and then 400 grit. Then sharpened the blade primary bevel 30° on a belt sander on 240 grit, then microbevel 600 1200 8000 grit on dmt dia sharp stones. 












I now also start to understand why this isn't the perfect tool for cleaning up tenon shoulders, it works ok on smaller stuff, but I bought this tool to help me making big m&t joints needed for the construction for my garden gate. The shoulder will be 2cm wide on the m&t's I'll be making so it requires a lot of force while planing, wich makes it hard for me to keep it controlled. No big deal tough, a beautifull plane like this I might even put it on display in my living room (if SWIMBO will let me  ) I guess it's time to look into paring chisels as i've been told here repeatedly that this is the tool for the job.


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## Ironballs (1 Mar 2009)

Please excuse me if this is a really dumb question, but I thought that it was common to have the bevel edge facing the other way on this type of plane?


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## Karl (1 Mar 2009)

Ironballs":3njykvax said:


> Please excuse me if this is a really dumb question, but I thought that it was common to have the bevel edge facing the other way on this type of plane?



No - bevel down (for 60 degree pitch). If it is bevel up (which you can do), and the blade is honed at 30 degrees, it will give you a 90 degree pitch, giving a scraping action.

Cheers

Karl


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## graween (2 Mar 2009)

PaulO.

It's funny that DC does not recommend using shoulder plane for trimming shoulders as the cover of the DVD shoes a tenon trimming :lol: 

For me it depends of the size of the work. Also I like my shoulder plane for that because it gives you more "sole contact", but it's more personal opinion and way of working. But chisel works fine. Especially the big problem when using should plane for trimming is the end grain on the end of the shoulder it splits. So I always put an other piece of wood to prevent this.

Best Regards.


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