# Staircase spindle movement



## RJ Joiner (1 Oct 2020)

Hi everyone - this is my first post , and i start with a bit of a problem....
I fitted a set of oak turned spindles to a cut string staircase around four years ago , and the client has just informed me that they have come loose in places from the tread . They have sent me pictures and there is a gap underneath some of the spindles where they meet the tread. When I installed the spindles I glued in a 12 mm dowel using pu glue and also pinned at an angle. This has always worked and I have done quite a few of these jobs without problems .
My question is - 1 - do I try to remedy the problem ( i thought maybe screw / glue down through every other spindle into the tread and then pellet the hole )
Or 2 - tell them that it looks like misuse by the client and that I'm not prepared to get involved . Four years seems a long time to me for there to be no problems , and then all of a sudden there is one ...
I remember this was a particularly difficult , demanding and unreasonable customer who took an age to pay when the job was completed, so if I didn't have to go back , I would be quite happy .
What would you do ? .


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## bjm (1 Oct 2020)

I'm going to start this by saying take every reply with a pinch of salt, including this. I wouldn't air a customer dispute on an open forum as it's difficult to offer impartial advice based on one side of a dispute - not taking sides here but there are two sides to every dispute and the only two parties that count are you and your customer. This turns it into a side-show. 

My advice would be to start a dialogue - it might turn out to be easier than you think and goodwill goes a long way?


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## mynamehere (1 Oct 2020)

Are you asking for advice how to fix the problem or are you asking for approval on here for not going back?

Cheers!

Ferenc


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## doctor Bob (1 Oct 2020)

I'd fix it under your terms i.e. not under guarantee anymore, but fixed as best as possible, as a good will gesture when convienient to you.


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## RJ Joiner (1 Oct 2020)

Thanks for the response . Its not that I'm trying to avoid going back to the job , it's more that I am interested in how long is a reasonable amount of time before you have to carry out remedial work ? . Four years is a long time in my opinion .
Also , if I did offer to repair it and I couldn't get it back to the same solid job that I originally completed , what would happen then ? .


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## Daniel2 (1 Oct 2020)

Can you post some pictures of the problem.
It would help a lot for people to advise.


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## Trevanion (1 Oct 2020)

If you had any sense of craftsmanship and value for your own reputation and honour you'd go back and sort it as best you can, you wouldn't even be asking the question. If you had done it properly in the first place you wouldn't have this issue, butting spindles straight onto the tread, dowel or not is just asking for trouble when timber moves.

Don't go down the "misuse" road for the love of god, that's probably the most feeble excuse I've heard for shonky craftsmanship, unless they've taken a sledgehammer to it there's no way you can "misuse" a staircase.

In my opinion, just grow a spine and sort it.




RJ Joiner said:


> Four years is a long time in my opinion



I know someone who made a pair of garage doors in their late teens/early twenties and *forty* years later the customer came back to them complaining it had rotted away.

I'm not even joking!


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## Doug71 (1 Oct 2020)

I would definitely go back to look at the job so that you can see exactly what has happened, it might not be what you think, maybe a handrail or newel or something has moved making the spindles lift. Handrails and spindles are there for safety reasons, imagine if something has failed and there is an accident where would that leave you.

Four years might sound a long time but for something like a staircase which has no moving parts or exposure to the elements I would expect it to not need any attention for it's lifetime apart from maybe initially the odd crack opening up from things acclimatising.

If you do visit you might see signs if they have abused or misused the staircase, you can then point this out and charge accordingly for any work done to rectify it.

Good luck.


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## LBCarpentry (2 Oct 2020)

“Juuuuust pretend I didn’t see that email there....oh... what’s this...another sale on a blacks how pleasant!”

Probs best be a man And go sort out that staircase dude. Although there’s nothing worse than the return of that bar steward customer you we’re glad to see the back of....


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## Mcdemon (3 Oct 2020)

Potentially classed as a latent defect unless you can prove misuse. You have your good name to protect here so a visit to establish the cause would be probably more beneficial to yourself. After all it may be an easy fix?
A bad reputation spreads quicker than a good one.


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## Peter Sefton (3 Oct 2020)

I am not a joiner but the few staircases I have worked on are constructed to avoid these issues. The handrail and the wide string can shrink, I guess this is what has happened here. They both usually have a wide shallow grooves the spindles sit into, on the underneath of the handrail and within the string capping. The spindles are cut to length to fit and small fillets are cut between each spindle pinned or glued in place. This keeps the spindle from turning and when the timber shrinks the spindles are still captive in the grooves. The images below shows the principle but on a landing rather than a string.







Cheers Peter


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## owen (3 Oct 2020)

Four years is not a long time, fourty years yes, but four years is nothing, I wouldn't expect my staircase joinery to fail in that time. Go fix it otherwise prepare for that customer to tarnish your reputation.


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## owen (3 Oct 2020)

Peter Sefton said:


> I am not a joiner but the few staircases I have worked on are constructed to avoid these issues. The handrail and the wide string can shrink, I guess this is what has happened here. They both usually have a wide shallow grooves the spindles sit into, on the underneath of the handrail and within the string capping. The spindles are cut to length to fit and small fillets are cut between each spindle pinned or glued in place. This keeps the spindle from turning and when the timber shrinks the spindles are still captive in the grooves. The images below shows the principle but on a landing rather than a string.
> 
> View attachment 93543
> 
> ...



A cut string staircase is different to that, the spindles sit directly onto the tread of the stairs. They're normally fixed with dowels or a mortice and tenon into the tread. It will be interesting to see pics of what has actually failed on this staircase?


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## Mike Jordan (3 Oct 2020)

The proper joint between the treads and spindles on a cut string flight is a dovetail joint. Your method has the spindle hanging on just the glue on the dowel.


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## johnnyb (3 Oct 2020)

Mike Jordan said:


> The proper joint between the treads and spindles on a cut string flight is a dovetail joint. Your method has the spindle hanging on just the glue on the dowel.


ditto with a nail


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## Cabinetman (3 Oct 2020)

Yes I agree, to be correct a dovetail should be used, but in today’s world, niceties like that sort of go by the board, this is from the Richard Burbridge staircase site and they supply an awful lot of staircases.


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## Mike Jordan (3 Oct 2020)

When the photos appear I think they will show that the cut string is deflecting under load and causing the gap to appear. I can't think of anything that would make the handrail rear up and pull the joints open. Even the nail method shown by Cabinetman wouldn't show a gap under the balusters.


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## Daniel2 (3 Oct 2020)

Come on RJ, let's see the photos.


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## Geoff_S (3 Oct 2020)

I've just "restored" our staircase and have attached a photo. The spindles are recessed in a square rebate and a nosing then over the top, not my design, that's what it originally was. They all had to be adjusted as over time they had all moved/shrunk but it wasn't that obvious because of the rebate. It's the same thing as Cabinetman has described in his diagram, but without that many nails (don't know why).

I wouldn't be at all surprised that a spindle had dislodged itself from an open string if it was just nailed & glued to the surface. All those years of people running up and down the stairs & maybe shrinkage. I guess that's why a rebate is involved to disguise any movement.

I'm not a professional joiner, the problem was that I couldn't, for love nor money, get any professional trade to take this job on. Many statements with mention of "open string" and shaking of heads. I think I now know why having done it myself.

So I think your problem is no rebate and maybe a glue & screw will solve it. Not sure it's ideal though.


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## Max Power (3 Oct 2020)

Mike Jordan said:


> When the photos appear I think they will show that the cut string is deflecting under load and causing the gap to appear. I can't think of anything that would make the handrail rear up and pull the joints open. Even the nail method shown by Cabinetman wouldn't show a gap under the balusters.


I'm with Mike, definitely the string moving when the staircase is used. Given that the spindles are butted onto the treads your options are limited and your idea of screwing through the spindle into the tread is probably as good as any. Make sure your counterbore for the plug is flat bottomed and get some panhead screws of a decent length and you will be able to get some good purchase into the string without splitting the spindles.
As regards the customer tell them it's outside of guarantee but you are prepared to do it as a gesture of goodwill


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## Trevanion (3 Oct 2020)

As Mike Jordan said, a dovetail and return is the proper and traditional way of doing it such as below:







You can do it with a straight mortice but I would also house the full width of the spindle 1/4” deep into the tread. Alternatively morticed caps can be made that can be screwed and glued to the tread to positively and securely house the spindle without housing the tread itself.


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## Cabinetman (3 Oct 2020)

Hi Trevanian what are mortised caps, haven’t come across those unless I call them something different. Ian
Sorry got it now.


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## Trevanion (3 Oct 2020)

Cabinetman said:


> Sorry got it now.



Just for clarity, say you've got a 30mm square spindle, you would make a 50mm square cap with a 20-25mm or so thickness that has a 30mm square hole morticed into it about half it's thickness and this is screwed down to the tread and the spindle sits in the mortice securely. Typically the caps are decorated with a moulding or chamfer all round depending on the style.

Also, MikeG has a very excellent thread on building his own staircase with the dovetailed spindle construction for anyone interested.


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## Jackbequick (4 Oct 2020)

RJ Joiner said:


> Thanks for the response . Its not that I'm trying to avoid going back to the job , it's more that I am interested in how long is a reasonable amount of time before you have to carry out remedial work ? . Four years is a long time in my opinion .
> Also , if I did offer to repair it and I couldn't get it back to the same solid job that I originally completed , what would happen then ? .




There may be a warranty period by law...check that. That aside is it an OHS matter in which you could find yourself in expensive proceedings? if a person is injured or some kid crals through dislodging the spindles and then falls ..If not covered by warranty , claim or law then it's the balancing act. Was the timber you used certified as seasoned and fit for purpose...Have the 'doweled/turned ends come out so far that they can actually slip out of the assembly? 

Could there be any thing, realistic, of their actions as 'contributory? 

Did you make any claims at the times like 'good for the next 20 years mate'. Have you called around to see the situation and assess the reality as opposed to the claim? At least by seeing it, photographing and assessing you can show you took an interest in the problem and the safety aspect. even if you say..''no I am not going to fix that problem as some kind of a warranty'.....but then if you fix it anyway it's unlikely you'll be paid so better see it as a tax deduction or a charitable act possibly earning an earlier release from purgatory...

To fix...would it be possible to drop the banister enough to take up the shrinkage?...Obviously I have no idea whether it is a straight run or curved but another suggestion is to make a batten which is adequate to take up the space...cut to suit the least visible part then cramp and drill to match the spindles so as to fit and screw together essentially as a buffer.


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## RJ Joiner (4 Oct 2020)

Thanks for all your feedback . I have told the customer that I will go back and attempt a repair.
Attached is the picture they sent me .


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## Doug71 (4 Oct 2020)

It looks like it's just the spindles at the front of the treads that are the problem, maybe they were cut short?

Might be possible to remove some of the infill strip from the handrail and pack the problem spindles back down on to the treads?


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## Daniel2 (4 Oct 2020)

Is it possible that the string is flexing or sagging, when weight is applied
to the front of the step ?


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## Sheffield Tony (4 Oct 2020)

My thought - having never made a staircase in my life - is that there doesn't look to be much meat left where the string is cut, maybe the whole thing is moving.


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## Cabinetman (4 Oct 2020)

As trevaniom said.
Just for clarity, say you've got a 30mm square spindle, you would make a 50mm square cap with a 20-25mm or so thickness that has a 30mm square hole morticed into it about half it's thickness and this is screwed down to the tread and the spindle sits in the mortice securely. Typically the caps are decorated with a moulding or chamfer all round depending on the style.

I think this is about the only way to easily fix it with the clients permission, they would have to be made slightly differently as a letter E with another straight piece to make it into a cap as Trevanian has described. Ian


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## Cabinetman (4 Oct 2020)

Sheffield Tony, you’re right, I hadn’t noticed that. We can only hope there is at least another 2or 3 inches underneath that rail and plasterboard?


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## Mike Jordan (4 Oct 2020)

No wonder it's moving in use, as already pointed out there is very little of the string depth left. You need at least 150mm at the narrowest point. Have a look at Mike G ,s post " a cut string staircase blow by blow" posted about six months ago. If you have done others like this the customers should be forming a queue by now.

Cabinetman - it isn't standing on that wall if you look at the full size photo.


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## Cabinetman (4 Oct 2020)

No, I knew that I was just hoping there was some more string/wood behind that. Perhaps I should have said behind rather than under


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## Doug71 (4 Oct 2020)

I was only looking at photo on my phone (small screen) and also thought the stair was carried by the wall underneath but now I see it's not, yeah that string is a bit on the narrow side to say the least.......Think I'd be bolting a bit of 6x2 underneath before it snaps.


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## Trevanion (4 Oct 2020)

Holy jumping Jesus on a pogo-stick! 

As has already been said multiple times, that cut string is not structurally sound enough to be carrying its own weight, let alone a person going up and down daily! There must be what, only an inch and a half to two inches left of timber? Unless there's a hidden piece of 2x2 angle iron bolted on the inside to help prevent the flexing it's no wonder the spindles have come loose!

I've seen some shonky work but that really takes the cake, it is *NOT* safe!


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## HOJ (4 Oct 2020)

As Trevanion has quite clearly stated, that is not fit for purpose, it's a liability claim waiting to happen.


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## Mike Jordan (4 Oct 2020)

I think the gaps beneath the balusters must be caused by the cantilever action of the treads and risers easing the wall string fixings out a little or, in the worst case, the treads and risers easing out of the sinkings. Either way that outer string needs support now! Long term an apron rail ot spandrel frame would be a solution.
I'm amazed its lasted four years.


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## That would work (4 Oct 2020)

Go back and dress it up along the lines of.... "after doing a few like this we have developed a modification to prevent the movement". 
Now design in a way of widening that string, shouldn't be too difficult and it would probably look better as well.
I recon a couple of heavy people running down that could actually cause that string to start breaking in two.


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## Cabinetman (4 Oct 2020)

Oh hell, I just had another look at the photo and I had misread it completely, (Probably couldn’t believe my eyes) that really is appallingly thin. It just screams at you that it’s totally unsafe. It must bounce if you go down the outer side where it is unsupported by the wall. 
If I was called in to do remedial action I think I would run a mile, adding a piece at this stage would be downright dodgy, I’m sure only a complete rebuild with the correct size stringer fitted will cure it. Several props are the only other way but they would be bloody ugly, and an admission of it’s original unfitness for purpose. Ian


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## Max Power (4 Oct 2020)

RJ Joiner said:


> Hi everyone - this is my first post , and i start with a bit of a problem....
> I fitted a set of oak turned spindles to a cut string staircase around four years ago ,


Does this read as the op fitted the spindles or he installed the staircase as well ?


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## Jackbequick (5 Oct 2020)

RJ, The general consensus is make an effort to resolve the matter even if it 'costs'. You wrote " _When I installed the spindles I glued in a 12 mm dowel using pu glue and also pinned at an angle. This has always worked and I have done quite a few of these jobs without problem"_. It's peculiar unless the dowels have broken, if not broken by your pinning, for a gap to appear. 

All things being equal it sounds like timber shrinkage. Illustrations would assist. I dislike angle-pinning although common practice these days with nail-gun fiends. If the spindles are notched-in (as in Cabinetman's illustration) it would seem to me to be not good practice. I think I'd use two dowels to spread the load. I was just thinking, my father a brilliant cabinet maker used pv glue on some jobs and hot melted horses' hoof glue on others. Maybe the horse-hoof has better binding qualities...I must look into that....

Amongst the suggestions, Max....a truly bad habit has become par-for-the-course since the battery drill was widely introduced...turning a screw through all the timber to be connected without drilling a clearance hole (similarly masonry drill bit used to drill through timber then into brick/concrete and timber to metal using HSS drill bit). While I am going...noggins no longer notched into studs even when most pacific timber is not fully seasoned and, commonly, split ....often we see expose nails or 'misses' so bad are some tradesman and so time conscious their bosses. 

Another bad procedure is using the screw itself to 'hopefully' pull its head into the timber; sometimes the head shears-off. 

Some tapered heads on straight-shank screws have a small extrusion supposedly to cut a countersink. It's not as good as 'the real thing'. I do think tork-head screws are an improvement, but I haven't seen any in the 'traditional' tapered wood-screw. 

The result of 'no' clearance hole in a short end of timber can be/may be a split or vulnerability to a split. If doing as has been suggested or screwed or nailed as in Cabinetman's illustration a tight-clearance hole should be drilled for a screw and a slightly tighter one for the nail. I might dry-soap the nail before driving it. 

The emerging of the problem at hand seems to have a general consensus of the forces and stress and strain by people in staircase use. In Cabinetman's illustration it _may_ be possible, with access below the staircase of course, to prepare glue locate and then while glue wet, screw preferably a good quality slotted tapered screw ( i.e. not a straight-shank screw generally weak by virtue of what they are ) up from below using correct (professionally tradesman-like) clearance for the screw land. Penetration into the spindle might well be say half an inch or an inch higher than the nosing. The nosing should then keep the spindle located without splitting being a problem. 

A reflection on screws, nails and eccentricity....so many stories (chuckles)

I keep very old tapered wood screws when I find them or can buy them, for use in old renovation works .....not though to the extent of (also crooked) builder 'second hand Harry' as known by his workers. I did some work at Milsons Point NSW I suppose 40 years ago. Some cottages in that highly desirable area were owned by a North Sydney school and Harry had some deal going with the school. He was not cheap...but he was a cheapskate, using sometimes good old demolition site timber which gathered 'somewhere' and would charge 'new' price.

Harry would also pick up bent nails (clean or rusty) and straighten them...unconcerned of any weakening...and use them on renovations. If Harry or one of his genius' drove a nail through or drilled through my concrete-encased conduit or inside-wall plasterboard it could take half a day to locate and more to fix. and pull-in new wiring ..back then about $600-1000 easily lost ....back then a lot of money. 

Harry's view was 'these things happen...not my problem, you'd have built it into your price ....not so of course, Harry was a con-man ....I didn't go the whole hog the first time ...but It happened twice. 

I refused to give up my claim the second time and was determined to 'nail' him, this old bent builder (irony) but 'conveniently' for Harry and unfortunately for me, Harry, who lived with his shrewish wife in a nice Kirribilli NSW home, looking over the Bay (so he had a 'quid') died of heart failure a few weeks after I dropped around with the invoice and told him I'd keep at him until he paid. I'm sure I have a guardian angel...but I think she'd subbie'd to a poltergeist.


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## Mike Jordan (5 Oct 2020)

To be constructive, a possible solution would be an apron rail as I suggested above. If we step back a few decades and consult the FOC on line copy of Riley's Manual of Carpentry and Joinery, figure 848 on page 438 shows a rail in use. Sketch 839 on page431 may also help.
It's no good trying to repair the joints showing a gap, the handrail won't support the sagging string!
I don't think any insurer providing public liability cover will pay out on injury caused by a failure of the staircase.


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## Cabinetman (5 Oct 2020)

I did as you suggested Mike and I have screenshot it it for on here but I don’t really think it’s going to be usably large enough, I had to get a magnifying glass to my iPad screen.
I’m sure Mr Riley is an expert but his cut strings look too meagre as well and the apron rail the way he does it really isn’t structural, I think it’s more decorative.
As was mentioned recently did the OP just fit the balustrades? If so he is in the clear.
Oh they haven’t come out too bad.


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## Cabinetman (5 Oct 2020)

It appears that it is still being published, came across a 2018 copy of the original 1905 version. I think I shall have to buy a copy, not for this problem staircase, just a different/traditional perspective on how things used to be done, or in other words done properly.


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## Mike Jordan (5 Oct 2020)

I had in mind a beefed up section to support the string.
JW Riley's book was the standard text book when I went to the Tech in 1959
I still refer to it occasionally. My copy is dated 1952, I bought a second hand one for my son more than 20 years back after being told it was out of print,


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## Max Power (5 Oct 2020)

Jackbequick said:


> Amongst the suggestions, Max....a truly bad habit has become par-for-the-course since the battery drill was widely introduced...turning a screw through all the timber to be connected without drilling a clearance hole



My intention was a pocket screw of decent length in a properly formed hole, not ideal but if it was angled so there was a decent amount of timber left under it to pull against would definitly pull everything together


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## luke burgess (5 Oct 2020)

Sorry for gatecrashing this thread, i joined this forum to resolve another issue and happened on this subject.
seeing the photo of cut the string staircase i'm hoping you were employed to fit handrail and spindles ect
and not the maker of the staircase?
Theres not anything like enough meat under those treads on the cut string and its no surprise its flexing and opening up under the spindles which ought to be dovetailed into the treads.
i"m thinking you need to persuade the client they need some storage space,fit a structural spandrel panel to transfer the load down to the floor and if you"r ever making this type of staircase in the future make sure you have at least 150 mm at the narrowest point of the cut string and don:t be shy about over egging the thickness of this component if its unsupported. i hope you manage to resolve the issue..


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## luke burgess (5 Oct 2020)

Also for aesthetics sake if possible place the first spindle on each tread in line with the face of the riser bellow.


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