# Is there a market for infill plane kits? Upd8 - setback No1



## Aled Dafis (7 Mar 2009)

Further to some comments posted following my dovetailed shoulder plane build, I've been thinking long and hard about putting a few kits together for you guys to have a go at making them yourselves.

I'm currently only considering the idea, but would welcome any comments, be they positive or otherwise as to whether you believe that there's a potential market out there. I know that similar ventures have failed in the past, so I'm a little wary as to whether there's a market at all.

The planes I've made so far are a small smoother and the shoulder plane.

















I also plan to make a full sized smoother in the near future, loosely based on a Norris 13 (but probably without the adjuster), and would also consider offering that as a kit; that is if my build turns out OK in the first place. In the longer term, I'd also like to put together a full size shoulder plane.

Cheers

Aled


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## Mr Ed (7 Mar 2009)

An interesting idea Aled. I'd potentially be up for having a go at one.

I don't think its an easy sector though; Legacy planeworks in the US had a nice shoulder plane kit and they couldn't make a go of it commercially. With the market there is out there it makes you wonder.

http://legacyplanes.com/

I know Ron Brese does kits as well, don't know what percentage of his business they account for though.

Best of luck if you decide to give it a go

Cheers, Ed


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## xraymtb (7 Mar 2009)

In some ways, I like the idea of a kit - at the same time, I can't help but think if I have the skills to do some of the work, then why not do it all?

I would need more specifics - I presume the dovetails would be cut but not fitted together and peened? 

As an intro to making infill planes it may be a good thing but I don't personally think there would be a large enough market to really make a go of it.


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## Aled Dafis (7 Mar 2009)

Thanks for your comments guys. I only intend to run the venture as a hobby, so my overheads would be less than if I were to make it my sole income provider. In reality, if things don't work out, then I won't loose out that much.

Mike,

That's pretty much what I had in mind, cutting the dovetails, but letting you do the peining. What about heat treating the iron? Would you be comfortable having a go at that? It's not brain surgery, but may be outside some people's comfort zone.

The smoother I have planned, uses the Holtey/Ron Brese method of screwing the sole to the sides, as opposed to dovetailing, thus making the assembly even more straightforward.

The Legacy kits look nice, it's a shame they couldn't make it work. I was quite tempted initially, but decided that I had the skills, and would have a go myself.

Cheers

Aled

P.S. It's 66% in favour at the mo, so it looks promising. However, the sample size is pretty small, so I'll not read too much into it.


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## pedder (8 Mar 2009)

Hi Aled,

it was me who voted no.

Not because I don't like your plan what I do.

Not because there is no market for Infills in general. Ron Breese and Gerd Fritsche sell infill kits.

But I think there is no market for infill shoulder plane kits. There are many tutorials in the fora. It seems to be easy to make your own plane from stock. 

If you had asked if there is a market for infill shoulder planes, I'd voted yes. One of the big players sells them. If you could do better (or cheaper) there would be a market. 

Cheers 
Pedder


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## xraymtb (8 Mar 2009)

Aled,

I would imagine heat treated the iron to be outside the comfort zone of the type of buyer you would be looking for.

Personally, if I had the equipment, skills and courage to heat treat my own irons, I would probably want to have a go at the whole thing, start to finish.

I'm not saying the idea is a complete non-starter - as you have said this is a hobby, and if you are not relying on these kits to make any serious money then why not have a go?

For me, I have very little metal work skills other than high school screw driver making!! If I was to buy a kit now, with my limited experience and tools, I would expect the sides/sole cut to size and dovetailed, the iron to be 'ready to use' (barring a quick sharpening), and the hardware required for anything else to be included (i.e. any adjusters or knobs for lever caps and the crosspin. This would leave me to do the fitting and peening, create the hardwood infill and put it all together - well within my comfort zone.

For those with more metal experience however, they may be comfortable doing more with the iron and the brass sides, but not as comfortable to work the hardwoods and shape the infill.

From the looks of the poll, there may be a market however so you can take my NO as a YES!!


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## SammyQ (8 Mar 2009)

Colour me interested in a shoulder plane kit.

Sam


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## beech1948 (8 Mar 2009)

The Old Tool Shop in Leics ( I've forgotten the chaps name...Somebody Ray Iles) has a complete infill smoother based on a Norris for sale ready built for £400 ish I think...perhaps indicates that there might be a market.

The real problem is to persuade enough folks that there is real monetary value in the bits bthat make up the kit.

regards
Alan


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## Mr Ed (8 Mar 2009)

Personally I think you would need to supply a finished blade, including heat treatment done. I would consider doing a kit, but I wouldn't want to start messing about with heat treatment.

Cheers, Ed


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## Anonymous (8 Mar 2009)

I think there might be a very small market and the price will have to be pretty low to capture a slice of that market.

If i were voting, it would be no unless you just want to sell the occasional kit. Your planes are beautiful though.

But then, I don't see any need for infills these days except as expensive toys (I have used 3 infilis from a brand new one to old Norris smoother and none were any better in use than a LN or LV)


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## Paul Chapman (8 Mar 2009)

I think the market would be very limited and you would have to charge quite a lot to make a profit.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (8 Mar 2009)

Tony":18p65zvn said:


> I think there might be a very small market and the price will have to be pretty low to capture a slice of that market.
> 
> If i were voting, it would be no unless you just want to sell the occasional kit. Your planes are beautiful though.
> 
> But then, I don't see any need for infills these days except as expensive toys (I have used 3 infilis from a brand new one to old Norris smoother and none were any better in use than a LN or LV)


I'm in agreement here with Tony. I've used S&S infills and I have a Norris A1 panel plane. Whilst very pleasant to look and to use, they in no way perform any better than my LV/LN planes or my Record Calvert-Stevens BD smoother - Rob


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## TrimTheKing (8 Mar 2009)

If the price was right I would be willing to take one, just for the fun of doing it, and giving me the confidence to go further and have a bash at doing my own from scratch.

Cheers

Mark


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## cambournepete (8 Mar 2009)

If the price was right I'd have a go.

I don't do any metalwork, so a kit with all the meatl parts ready cut and drilled and heat treated or whatever would be ideal.

I was thinking of getting a kit from Shepherd Tool in the US, but never found the time and now they're no more...


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## Woody Alan (8 Mar 2009)

> was thinking of getting a kit from Shepherd Tool in the US, but never found the time and now they're no more


Well consider yourself lucky, because they were pretty rubbish, speaking as an silly person who bought a couple, and don't let anyone tell you different I had endless trouble with missing parts, parts that didn't fit, non delivery etc etcs.

Alan


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## Aled Dafis (8 Mar 2009)

Thanks again for your comments guys.

I totally agree that the likes of LN, LV and of course Clifton, all perform to a very high standard, but I must add that using infill planes gives a little more. I'm not talking actual planing performance here - although I firmly believe that infills can be made to perform at least as well as their production line counterparts - but infills also make you feel a little better inside, and especially so if you're using a tool that you've made yourself. 

I also believe that using a tool that works superbly, and that you're proud of, can elevate the standard of your work to another level. So, in which case, infill planes make perfect sense, they work well, they look good, they make you feel good, and can even spur you on to produce even better work.

Sorry if this sounds like some sort of sales pitch, it's not intended as that at all, I have LV, LN and Clifton tools, and they also have a similar effect on me. I guess that I just like nice tools. :lol: (and that I'm a little sad  )

For the brave guys that have expressed some interest in the kits, thank you very much. I'm doing some research on the costing at the moment, and should have something a little firmer in mind by next weekend.

Cheers

Aled


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## TrimTheKing (8 Mar 2009)

Excellent, bring it on. Maybe we can have a little competition to see who can best 'pimp' one of your kits Aled 

Cheers

Mark


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## Benchwayze (9 Mar 2009)

I voted 'No' too. 

Mainly because if I was considering a kit, I would have to go for Ron Brese. He seems to have that market well sewn-up. I couldn't afford a Karl Holtey of any type! 

In the UK I think Philly is high on the 'makers' list, and what I might pay for a kit, would probably get me a ready-made 'Philly'. (I can't swear to this of course!) There's also a fellow somewhere in the Leics/Northants area whom I read about in Good Woodworking. I'd have to dig it out, but the stuff he was doing looked good. 

Aled, please don't let me deter you from trying, but I believe in something you said. If you have the skills, make it yourself! 

Best o'luck with it.


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## bugbear (9 Mar 2009)

EdSutton":2al2edau said:


> An interesting idea Aled. I'd potentially be up for having a go at one.
> 
> I don't think its an easy sector though; Legacy planeworks in the US had a nice shoulder plane kit and they couldn't make a go of it commercially. With the market there is out there it makes you wonder.



Don't forget the sad fate of shephard tools.

BugBear


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## Mikey R (9 Mar 2009)

I really like the idea of making my own infill plane, Ive been thinking about how I would go about it with the minimum of metal working tools. It would be tricky though without a permanent workspace.

If I was looking for a new plane, I would definitely consider a kit or a completed plane - so I voted yes, if I had the budget!

I do agree a kit of parts would be competing with a completed production Stanley type plane, so it may need need to be priced similar to something like a new Clifton. 


What would be interesting is a kit of just the tricky parts - the Norris style adjuster, a polished brass lever cap, iron and breaker, those kinds of things.


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## Pekka Huhta (9 Mar 2009)

I really _hope_ that there's a market for infill plane kits, as I have been toying with the idea of starting to make kits as well  (in case anyone missed it, https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=30410 )

Nothing is difficult after you've done it once, not even tempering the iron. The biggest thing is to make starting look so easy that the potential customer is not afraid of getting started. 

When I started my project, I had all sorts of doubts for differrent "difficult" workphases. I pushed the project for more than a year just because I thought it would be soo very difficult and laborious. At the end most of the things I was afraid of were easy and many of the things which I did not take as difficult at all took a lot of time and effort. 

What I'm saying is that good instructions and probably videos etc. would definitely be something that would make starting easier. Of course someone would start building those planes from scratch from the same instructions, but that probably can't be avoided. 

By the way, I think that the Legacy planes was not a huge success if they had only one plane to offer. You would have to have several different models to get it working. 

Mikey's idea of offering also just components is good - or then you could offer semi-completed kits just as well. If someone is afraid of the peening process, the plane could be semi-assembled, but fitting the infills could for example be left to the customer. 

Pekka


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## Aled Dafis (13 Mar 2009)

Hi, I've been doing a bit of research as regards costing a kit this week, and have decided that if I have some takers, I'll dip my toe in the water.

The first kit that I'm going to offer is the small shoulder plane kit. The specs of the finished plane are as follows.

- 95mm (3.75") long by 12mm (1/2"ish) wide.
- 25 degree pitch.
- O1 Tool Steel Iron tempered to Rc 60-62.
- Brass sides.
- Sole also O1 Tool steel.

In true Blue Peter style, here's one I made earlier.







All parts will be precision cut (and before you ask, no they won't be cut on the school's machine), that's all that there will be left for you to do is to file the dovetail angles in the sole plate, pein/rivet the whole assembly together and cut the mouth. Cleaning and lapping of the metalwork can be achieved on a belt sander or linisher platen quite easily, but take care, as the brass is considerably softer than the steel sole, and therefore it's quite easy to clean your plane into a nice wedge shape. :roll: :roll: 

I'll also include a small piece of African Blackwood for you to make the wedge, but of course, you're quite welcome to use any wood of your choice.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the price on the forum as it may be seen as advertising, so It's probably better if you PM me for pricing. 

Cheers

Aled


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## Aled Dafis (14 Mar 2009)

I've just edited the name of the thread to show that I'm offering kits. 

As this is a hobby venture, am I allowed to post prices? To be honest I'm never going to get rich doing this, but at least a few people can have a go at making their own tools, and gain some new skills at the same time.

I'll look into pricing the small smoother this week, and I'll let you know how I get on within the week.

Cheers

Aled


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## Aled Dafis (14 Mar 2009)

I've now had the OK from a Moderator to post prices.

The price for a shoulder plane kit will be 65 pounds including postage. This includes all parts and materials to build the plane, a small piece of African Blackwood for the wedge, full instructions of how to go about building the plane, and of course any assistance that you might need from myself.

Please feel free to ask any questions either on the open forum, or via PM.

Cheers

Aled


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## Aled Dafis (21 Apr 2009)

It's been a while since I posted that I'd offer kits to forum members, so I thought it may be time to give you all an update on how things are going.

To be honest I've had a bit of a disaster with the laser profiling.

The parts came back cut to the specified dimensions and within tolerance, but the company failed to warn me that the process of laser profiling O1 tool steel actually hardens it's edges to the point that files and scribes fail to even mark the edges - I've already ruined two brand new files.

My plan was then to anneal the parts so that they could be worked -I'm not sure how much you know about metallurgy, but very basically, annealing softens the metal. I found the annealing process quite hit and miss, but eventually managed to evenly anneal the sole of the plane to the point that it could be worked with files (or at least I thought I did).

I then went on to actually build a plane, so that I would have a full set of WIP pics to go with the instructions, but the steel just didn't want to play ball, as I was about half way through peining the dovetails, I noticed that the sole had cracked just behind the mouth of the plane - I obviously didn't fully anneal it, and there must have been a hard/brittle area still present - making the whole plane completely unuseasble!!!! AAARRHHHHHH! At this point I became quite annoyed, hurled the plane across the workshop and went home!!

I did also get a few smoother plane kits profiled at the same time, but I haven't yet had time to experiment with them.

The good news however is that I'm in the process of ordering a new batch of plane soles, this time water jet cut, so the hardening issue should not pose a problem!!!

I've also asked a mate to sort me out a website, but he's yet to get off his fat buttocks and do anything about it. (let's hope he reads that bit!!)

Cheers

Aled


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## Ironballs (21 Apr 2009)

Sorry to hear about that Aled, I was going to suggest water jet cutting until I saw you'd already done it


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## Aled Dafis (21 Apr 2009)

I had originally planned to get everything water jet cut, but laser cutting turned out to be slightly cheaper. #-o #-o #-o #-o


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## jasonB (22 Apr 2009)

You really need a heat treating oven to anneal the plates without distortion and to do it evenly, blow torch is not the way to go on this one.

Water jet cutting will give a slightly tapered edge, make sure you allow for this in your sizing. CNC milling will give a usable edge but not as cheap.

Jason


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## Pekka Huhta (22 Apr 2009)

jasonB":csb4slzn said:


> You really need a heat treating oven to anneal the plates without distortion and to do it evenly, blow torch is not the way to go on this one.



Not necessarily though. I have succesfully annealed lots and lots of steel parts "the traditional way", in my fireplace. I just toss the parts to the fireplace when the wood has turned to charcoal and still glowing a bit, stir them into the ashes and let cool slowly in the ashes till the next morning. It isn't that difficult to find out the right time to do this - provided that you do have a fireplace  

It's not completely foolproof, not measurable and definitely not very scientifical, but it works. For me, at least 

Pekka


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## mahking51 (22 Apr 2009)

Hi All,
Slightly OT, sorry!
Can anyone pleasegive me a brief expalnation of how this water cutting is acheived?
Regards,
Martin


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## wizer (22 Apr 2009)

here you go Martin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter


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## Ironballs (22 Apr 2009)

You do not want to get any part of your body near a water jet cutter, this is what they use to cut out bits of titanium plate on bikes!


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## jasonB (22 Apr 2009)

Pekka Huhta":3ki3c3dl said:


> jasonB":3ki3c3dl said:
> 
> 
> > You really need a heat treating oven to anneal the plates without distortion and to do it evenly, blow torch is not the way to go on this one.
> ...



I have also done it that way a number of times, the reason I suggested an oven was to get an even annealing, avoid introducing any more carbon into the surface (case hardening) and to avoid any distortion in the plates which you don't want on a plane.

Jason


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## Aled Dafis (22 Apr 2009)

jasonB":3rw99p9m said:


> Pekka Huhta":3rw99p9m said:
> 
> 
> > jasonB":3rw99p9m said:
> ...



Yes, I was a little concerned with the case hardening issue by introducing more carbon into the steel. As I mentioned, I tried the blowtorch approach with very mixed results.

This time round I'll just have to swallow my pride, and shell out for a new batch of plates.

Cheers

Aled


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## Pekka Huhta (23 Apr 2009)

jasonB":1zi4rvaa said:


> I have also done it that way a number of times, the reason I suggested an oven was to get an even annealing, avoid introducing any more carbon into the surface (case hardening) and to avoid any distortion in the plates which you don't want on a plane.



You are perfectly right. On the other hand I was thinking that peening will probably distort the parts much more and that such a small sole is easy to lap even if it's a bit distorted. 

Pekka


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