# Sellers sharpening for woodwork newbie?



## TheWizardofOdds (18 Feb 2014)

I have decided to go down the Paul Sellers road in starting woodwork. I have purchased The Essential Woodworker and Sellers book too. My plan is to go between the two. My first task is to sharpen my plane, spokeshave and chisels. Having read Paul's book I would like to do the diamond stone and strop sharpening. The problem is one of cost. He says not to buy cheap stones and to purchase good ones. I see where he is coming from but I am spending a fair amount setting up a toolkit and cannot justify £150 for three stones. 

Can anyone recommend diamond stones and / or strop at a more reasonable ( for me) price? 

I at first looked at the Stanley/Irwin oilstone and guide kits at around £15 or so but would like to get the tools as sharp as the ones you see in Seller's book. When I looked at the Stanley kit in a store it looked a bit flimsy. 

Any thoughts on this are much appreciated. 

David


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## wizard (18 Feb 2014)

Heck! Here we go again :shock:


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## Spindle (18 Feb 2014)

Hi

I suspect you'll be deluged with helpful advice  

There are many 'sharpening' threads to read also :wink: 

Regards Mick


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## rafezetter (18 Feb 2014)

wizard":3n6ugy1c said:


> Heck! Here we go again :shock:



I've read enough sharpening threads here that that made me laugh.

However Paul does do a utube stating that 250 grit is really all you need to actually get the job done, more than that just makes it easier, in the same way a pushbike will get you there, but an Aston Martin is a nicer ride 

I had an issue with some oak not long ago (I had sharpened to 600grit) and on the back of it bought some finer scary sharpening sheets, but only up to about 4000 grit. The 600 grit did cut the oak, and it might have been easier to do if the top and bottom of the door I was planing wasn't lying sideways, but after some huffing I did manage to get where I wanted to be.

Here's the vid in question, so before you rush out and drop that kind of money, make sure you'll actually NEED to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbAo4RpM7oM


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## nev (18 Feb 2014)

We should be OK, the question from the OP is about which stones as opposed to which method, so hopefully the thread will fill with useful shopping suggestions and not degenerate into handbags


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## carlb40 (18 Feb 2014)

While i would normally suggest buying the best you can afford, in this case i would suggest the lower end. Most diamond stones will be flat enough for chisels etc. It will be doubtful there will be much if any of a hollow/ bump across the width. So something like the faithfull / axi diamond stones should be fine. One other thing to consider is until you have tried a method you might not like it or suit you. So IMO getting expensive DMT / EZE- lap stones from the start could be an expensive mistake. 

All the different methods of sharpening medium have their place and are equally as valid as another. There is no right or wrong just different. As long as the tool gets sharpened then it has done it's job.


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## MIGNAL (18 Feb 2014)

I have a number of different sharpening media: Oil, diamond, Arkansas, Waterstones, Slate. 
A couple of months ago I bought this combination diamond stone:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Class-Si ... B004VQXO84

So far it's worked perfectly well. It takes you up to 600G. The only thing I can't tell you about is how long it will last. For a cheap polishing stone see the thread on the dragon Slate stones.


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## G S Haydon (18 Feb 2014)

It's going to be tough as we all use different things. The Norton India combination stone oil stone is very good value. Combine it with a strop and you well have a decent edge for around £30.00.


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## Scouse (18 Feb 2014)

if diamond stones are the route you want to take, Trend do a reversible 300/1000 grit stone that I have seen Rob Cosman enthusing about...

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/productli ... tones.html

and Axi do a similar 8 inch stone for 22 quid, maybe worth a punt

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-do ... ench-stone

Can't advise as to the quality, but I believe Trend are pretty good and Axminster have a good customer service policy if you are not happy. Axi also do a strop with compound for around a tenner.

Seller's 'superfine' stone is 1200 grit, so you are not far off his recommendation with the 1000 grit stones above, especially if you intend to strop afterwards.

El.


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## Woodchips2 (18 Feb 2014)

Paul Sellers also sharpens with abrasive papers see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki8tt-VjwqI where he gets some cheap Aldi chisels into shape.

Regards Keith


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## SteveF (18 Feb 2014)

I have the axi diamond stone
I am more than happy with it and is the one i use...along with various grades of wet n dry
I am definitely no expert and right or wrong I don't feel the need to spend oodles on stones
I have a large collection of oil and natural stones i have collected and never really use them tbh..stuck in a pile of why did i get that

Steve


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## John15 (18 Feb 2014)

I'm using diamond stones at the moment up to 1200 grit and I'm pleased with the results. But after reading the thread on the Inigo Jones slate stone I couldn't resist buying one, but as it's rated at 8000 grit it's a big jump from my finest diamond stone. Do I need to get something in-between - do many people go beyond 1200 grit? If not I think Inigo Jones will be collecting dust on the top shelf.

Cheers,
John


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Feb 2014)

A strop should be pretty cheap to arrange. Aquire a piece of leather, say 8" x 2" or so - harder is better than softer - and glue to a piece of wood. There seems to be some debate about which way up; mine is furry side up, and seems to work OK. The leather can come from charity shop belt, scrounge from shoe repairer, or at a pinch Ebay sell leather pieces at moderate cost. The strop can be used as is, or can be dressed with a mild abrasive such as jeweller's rouge, chromium oxide paste, very fine diamond paste or Autosol metal polish. Some people dispense with the leather, and just dress a piece of MDF or similar with Autosol. They all work, the idea being to dress off the last of the wire-edge formed in honing on the stones, and polish up the cutting surfaces a bit, rather than to actually grind away metal to form a cutting edge.

The general principles of sharpening usually involve three stages - coarse (a rough stone or powered grinder) to form the basic geometry of the primary bevel, medium (honing stone) to form and maintain the secondary (working edge) bevel, and fine (polishing stone and/or strop) for when a very refined edge is needed. For some work - heavy chopping with chisels or rough jack plane work, for example - an edge from the medium honing stone is good enough. It's only really on the paring chisels and ultimate smoothing planes that the polished edge really does make a difference.

I've never used diamond stones, so unfortunately I can't help in translating 'coarse' 'medium' and 'fine' into grit numbers, but for an oilstone system, 'coarse' would be a coarse Norton India (or grinder of some sort - high speed bench, water-cooled slow speed, or hand-cranked), 'medium' would be a fine Norton India, and 'fine' would be a black or translucent Arkansas or Welsh Slate, or one of the many vintage stones such as Belgian coticules, Charnley Forest and so on.

I'm guessing now - perhaps somebody more knowledgeable could correct? - 'coarse' would be about 300 or 400 grit in diamond terms, 'medium' about 1000 grit, and 'fine' about 1200 grit or finer.


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## MIGNAL (18 Feb 2014)

Try it. If it doesn't seem to be having much effect increase the honing angle by a couple of degrees. The polishing stone only needs to do the very tip. I used to go from a 100G grindstone staright to a 8,000G waterstone, nothing between.


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Feb 2014)

John15":be71k11j said:


> I'm using diamond stones at the moment up to 1200 grit and I'm pleased with the results. But after reading the thread on the Inigo Jones slate stone I couldn't resist buying one, but as it's rated at 8000 grit it's a big jump from my finest diamond stone. Do I need to get something in-between - do many people go beyond 1200 grit? If not I think Inigo Jones will be collecting dust on the top shelf.
> 
> Cheers,
> John



I see from Axi's catalogue that DMT offer an extra-extra fine diamond stone that they rate at 8000 grit. I think the Dragon's Tongue is probably in about the same sort of range. (I don't think these grit numbers are on a linear range, frankly - bigger numbers are finer, that's about all you can say.)

Go on - give it a go! Polish the grinding fuzz off with wet-and-dry (I used 160, followed by 400 and finished with 1200, freehand with water as a lubricant, and both sides and both edges took me 15 minutes to finish) and use it only to refine edges, not form them. I have to admit I'm rather impressed with mine.


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## carlb40 (18 Feb 2014)

John15":2axdb5lz said:


> I'm using diamond stones at the moment up to 1200 grit and I'm pleased with the results. But after reading the thread on the Inigo Jones slate stone I couldn't resist buying one, but as it's rated at 8000 grit it's a big jump from my finest diamond stone. Do I need to get something in-between - do many people go beyond 1200 grit? If not I think Inigo Jones will be collecting dust on the top shelf.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


I do as i use scary sharp. Mathew used to list a rough equivelent grit on each of the 3m films, pretty sure the white one i use was around 30,000 grit.


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## Bod (18 Feb 2014)

The Eriba Turner":9dvpbgqf said:


> Paul Sellers also sharpens with abrasive papers see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki8tt-VjwqI where he gets some cheap Aldi chisels into shape.
> 
> Regards Keith



I've watched this clip, the results he gets are very good, cheap materials, easy to follow, works for most blade types.
After working with various stones over the years, I'm very tempted to go this way.

Bod


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## Mr_P (18 Feb 2014)

To quote Charlton Heston

"From my cold dead hands"

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/natural-Arkan ... 27de48f0a6


Just an example, I'm not allowed to point to a live auction. You can normally get them for that price but longer and in a box. 

Absolutely love mine, even more now I've starting using baby oil (tip from this very forum).

Should last me a life time unlike diamond stones. I've also heard great things about scary sharp but they have very high running costs compared to oilstones.


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Feb 2014)

A bit of googling brought forth this abrasive grit comparison chart. It might be informative. Or confusing.

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/grits.htm


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## TheWizardofOdds (18 Feb 2014)

Lovely stuff. Thanks to everyone for the advice and recommendations. 

As mentioned by someone earlier, I was really interested in if there was any decent diamond plates/stones about for a reasonable sum. I've read lots of threads on sharpening and thought the forum could really do with another. 

There is no way I will be spending the money on the EZE lap plates. I'd love to though. With my midlife crisis in full swing I have acquired a motorbike licence and bike and that, let me tell you is an expensive hobby too. So...I'm having to compromise in some areas of my woodwork tool kit acquisitioning. 

Cheers


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## carlb40 (18 Feb 2014)

Cheshirechappie":1hj2izow said:


> A bit of googling brought forth this abrasive grit comparison chart. It might be informative. Or confusing.
> 
> http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/grits.htm


Ahh that was posted the other day, and i closed it after it gave me a headache reading it. :mrgreen: 
After googling, this popped up.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread ... cron+chart 

This is copied from the link

Halving the size of the grit doubles it's micron number, so I use a Log-Log graph to make it look linear.

Example, 120 grit is 120 micron, 1200 grit is 12 micron, 12,000 grit is 1.2 micron (roughly right?). 

Soooo the white lapping film at 0.3 microns would according to that site be around 48,000 grit?


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## graduate_owner (18 Feb 2014)

The leather for my strop came from a discarded pair of rigger boots - I was going to throw them away when the sole came apart, but I'm glad I didn't. It's glued to a block of wood, 'furry' side up and seems to work well. I use green polishing compound in block form bought from Axminster. However, I still have difficulty in shaving hairs off my arm with wood chisels!!

K


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## rafezetter (18 Feb 2014)

MIGNAL":9c63ox5b said:


> I have a number of different sharpening media: Oil, diamond, Arkansas, Waterstones, Slate.
> A couple of months ago I bought this combination diamond stone:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Class-Si ... B004VQXO84
> ...



This was exactly the "stone" I was using on the oak.


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## G S Haydon (18 Feb 2014)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm rigger boots.


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## rafezetter (18 Feb 2014)

G S Haydon":25bdzz4l said:


> mmmmmmmmmmmmmm rigger boots.




err..ok I think we've wandered off the path a little bit...


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## bugbear (19 Feb 2014)

carlb40":wnqxd673 said:


> Cheshirechappie":wnqxd673 said:
> 
> 
> > A bit of googling brought forth this abrasive grit comparison chart. It might be informative. Or confusing.
> ...



You'll find, from the original chart posted by cheshirechappy, that different grit scales are ... well ... different. Fepa isn't CAMI isn't JIS.

That's why the chart has more than 2 columns.

The graph you link to converts microns to CAMI which is good - if you're American!

BugBear


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## morfa (19 Feb 2014)

I use oilstones. Yes they may be messy (woodworking and DIY etc is all messy anyway, so who cares) but they mean that your blades will stay nicely oiled up. Personally I've never bothered with a guide either. I might buy one eventually, but so far it's not been needed. I can always get an edge good enough to cut a few hairs on my forearm (and obviously, cut the wood well). Like most of woodworking, it's not rocket science, you just need a decent amount of practice. But generally I do roughly what Paul Sellers suggests. It works well for me. 

I have a coarse and a fine oilstone. I have the 3" ones, just cause the extra size is handy. It's perfectly suitable for hobby use (and tbh I'm sure it's fine for 'trade' use as well). I use mine on average once a week. Annoyingly they're out of stock till March:

http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... tones.html

Once you're sure you're into woodworking, then buy the diamond stones. 

For your strop, you can buy leather and chromium paste from here:

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Strops.html - or the leather from ebay (but Matt's leather is very good quality).
Also Matt sells honing guides as well - http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/ric ... uides.html

You can buy a slate hone, which is supposed to be good from here:

http://www.inigojones.co.uk/products/Honing-Stone.php

There's a guy on ebay who sells larger slate hones for only a little bit more.


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## Jacob (19 Feb 2014)

G S Haydon":1dioyxxs said:


> It's going to be tough as we all use different things. The Norton India combination stone oil stone is very good value. Combine it with a strop and you well have a decent edge for around £30.00.


Yep. All you need. I wouldn't bother about any other kit until you can sharpen quickly and easily on an oil stone such as this from Rutlands. 
Then when you have really got the hang of it perhaps buy one more finer stone. All you will ever need until you get to gouges etc.
Don't bother with jigs they just make sharpening more difficult - which is what generates nearly all the sharpening chat and extra kit people imagine they need.
Top tip - get a burr _right across the edge the full width especially the middle_ before you turn it face down. Most blades get most wear in the middle and it can take some time to take out the dip and this can get neglected, meaning the tool isn't quite 100% sharp.
Lift off swarf with a magnet and have plenty of old rags around, to keep things clean.


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## Cheshirechappie (19 Feb 2014)

bugbear":3mvc0mqx said:


> carlb40":3mvc0mqx said:
> 
> 
> > Cheshirechappie":3mvc0mqx said:
> ...



Consequently, making a direct comparison based on grit grade alone between different sharpening media will not give a direct comparison of the edge quality that will result from the use of each media. In other words, a 600 grit Japanese water stone (that's 600 grit measured to JIS standards) won't necessarily have the same abrasive particle size as a 600 grit American-made diamond stone.

The best comparison on abrasive particle size is probably made by converting all 'grit sizes' to micron sizes, and comparing those. So the fine lapping film mentioned by Carl is roughly equivalent to the polishing compounds applied to leather strops.

However, that's not necessarily the end of it. Different sharpening media behave in different ways. A 40 micron waterstone may not give the same edge quality as a 40 micron diamond stone, because the cutting mechanism differs slightly - a mobile slurry of abrasive particles and water on the waterstone, sharp particles fixed in a matrix on the diamond stone. The lapping film (fixed particles) will behave a bit differently to the charged strop (more mobile abrasive particles).

It's probably wise to regard the comparison charts as a good first-stab guide rather than an absolute and definitive comparison of sharpening media capabilities.


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## TheWizardofOdds (20 Feb 2014)

Jacob":2qmrfr2f said:


> ...Don't bother with jigs they just make sharpening more difficult...



Do you mean a Honing Guide?


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## morfa (20 Feb 2014)

TheWizardofOdds":35ohxvf1 said:


> Jacob":35ohxvf1 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Don't bother with jigs they just make sharpening more difficult...
> ...



Yup, that's what he means. They're probably useful, but I've not had any problems getting stuff sharp with out one.


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## Jacob (21 Feb 2014)

TheWizardofOdds":21uc4c1f said:


> Jacob":21uc4c1f said:
> 
> 
> > ...Don't bother with jigs they just make sharpening more difficult...
> ...


Yes. They are a PITA. Each "improved" version is worse than the one before. You also have to have dead flat stones to make them work at all, which doubles the work load quite pointlessly. Freehand you don't ever need to flatten them so they last much longer and sharpening takes much less time.


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## Carl P (22 Feb 2014)

I started sharpening with an eclipse style guide - I found it enormously helpful as I was learning on my own, ie nobody to give a good example, not even a video, so I needed that sense of security. Now I almost never use a guide and wished I'd made the transition earlier as I find sharpening is simpler and quicker without one - but using it was still a very important part of learning for me. I use oilstones now, but did use scary sharp for a while, although it is inconvenient when running out of papers and also more fiddly and time consuming, I found it very helpful in learning how smooth and sharp it's possible to get an edge. With very fine stones and a good strop I seem to be able to get the same results (now!).

Cheerio,

Carl


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## J_SAMa (22 Feb 2014)

TheWizardofOdds":1ydd3b0m said:


> I have decided to go down the Paul Sellers road in starting woodwork. I have purchased The Essential Woodworker and Sellers book too. My plan is to go between the two. My first task is to sharpen my plane, spokeshave and chisels. Having read Paul's book I would like to do the diamond stone and strop sharpening. The problem is one of cost. He says not to buy cheap stones and to purchase good ones. I see where he is coming from but I am spending a fair amount setting up a toolkit and cannot justify £150 for three stones.
> 
> Can anyone recommend diamond stones and / or strop at a more reasonable ( for me) price?
> 
> ...



Mod Edit: Paragraph deleted. Use that language again and expect to see your posts deleted.

First of all, remember, *you don't have to polish a blade to mirror shine*. Some of my bigger chisels and plane blades aren't polished (takes too long), but I have yet to notice any difference in the sharpness or wood surface smoothness produced by them and those by my smaller, polished blades.

But at any rate, I shall attempt to help you, sharpening is quite confusing for beginners, with so many stones to choose from. Now, two solutions I can think of:

a. If I were you I'd go buy a coarse-fine combination India stone, and some buffing compound. Trust me, you CAN POLISH TO MIRROR SURFACE using stropping compound after "Fine India" (which equivalent to 400-600 diamond stone). Surely stropping a blade after sharpening on the 1200 "super fine" polishes the blade up quicker, but 
Get these from *Dictum/b], so much cheaper than UK stores... You'll also need a piece of leather for the strop (I use chamois leather commonly found in auto parts shops, like the type used for buffing cars):
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/pro...a-Oilstone-Combination-Stone-Coarse--Fine.htm
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/705264/Polishing-Paste-Medium.htm
For buffing compound, anything between their "medium" and "extra fine" works.

Now I know some might say oilstones will hollow out, but the thing is you don't need inspection-grade flat stones!!. If you need to flatten a blade, do it on sandpaper on plate glass. It's a one-off job. During normal, daily sharpening you only need to slightly touch up the back of a blade on the finest stone to take off the burr, which won't take it out of flat even if the stone isn't flat.
Or if you're a purist and really worry about the flatness, get a spare fine India stone and only use it for removing burrs from blade backs.

b. If you really want cheap but good diamond stones, not a problem. If memory serves, Paul Sellers uses EZE-Lap, available here:
http://fine-tools.com/ezelap-diasharpener.html
Get the 400 grit "medium" first, a 2" by 6" is big enough, for jointer or large spokeshave blades just skew them (you are freehanding right). Get the 1200 grit later when you have saved up. Personally, I don't think you need a 250-600-1200 sequence. 400-1200 is good enough, the real rough work should be done on grinders or really coarse sandpaper.
Again also some buffing compound to use after the stone:
http://fine-tools.com/flexcut-accessories.html

Lastly, don't overthink it, it's only sharpening.

Sam*


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## JustBen (22 Feb 2014)

Scouse":18lflvf0 said:


> if diamond stones are the route you want to take, Trend do a reversible 300/1000 grit stone that I have seen Rob Cosman enthusing about...
> 
> http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/productli ... tones.html
> 
> El.



I've got that one!

It's very good. Takes seconds to sharpen.


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## TheWizardofOdds (22 Feb 2014)

Great info, thanks to everyone. I've got a lot to think about. Ditch the guide theory? Why not! What's the worst that could happen?

Also great suggestions for oilstones etc.

I would never have thought woodwork would require this research! Which tools, how to sharpen, etc its kept me busy.


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## G S Haydon (27 Feb 2014)

Sorry to awake this one again but for those that fancy Paul Seller's methods on sharpening ITS have diamond plates on offer at the mo under what I would assume to be their own brand of "ULTEX" http://www.its.co.uk/Misc/Ultex-Diamond-Stones.htm

You could do the 3 x plates grits he uses for £75.00 or go for the combo plates.

I can't say how good they are but I bought a coarse diamond plate for dressing stones from their previous range and it it seems ok. The stones on offer have a 3 year guarantee.


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## J_SAMa (27 Feb 2014)

Just a quick note... Hope it helps
Since OP is sharpening freehand, it may be beneficial to experiment with different strokes, i.e. not just pushing and pulling the blade back and forth along the stones, but also doing some figure 8, circles, or side-to side. What I've found is that pushing and pulling across the stone doesn't produce as fine an edge as figure 8 or side to side. Not sure why, but that's what happens for me. Might be because the back and forth motion creates a saw tooth-like edge, while figure 8 and side to side produce less "teeth" on the edge. A bit like pushing a rasp straight along vs pushing while also moving it across slightly.
Someone with a microscope (and a lot of free time) oughtta test my theory...
And yet another reason not to using a honing guide 
Sam


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