# Record plane iron



## jaspr (4 Jul 2007)

Hi everyone

I have an old iron in my Record plane (no. 5) - it is labelled "Record Best Crucible Cast Tungsten Steel".

It seems very hard. Can anyone tell me what type of steel it is. I mean how does it relate to what I'm used to seeing labelled as O1, A2, D2, etc?

It seems to sharpen up ok, but it takes a lot of work. Is it worth using? Should I give some more money to Mr Hock?

Appreciate your help.

jas


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## bugbear (4 Jul 2007)

jaspr":3cez284g said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I have an old iron in my Record plane (no. 5) - it is labelled "Record Best Crucible Cast Tungsten Steel".
> 
> ...



Those blades are pretty good, but not as good as Hock. The after market blades are a little thicker, and the thickness makes a big difference.

The steel in your blade is probably closest to O1, in terms of current nomenclature.

But your blade sounds good - unless you're feeling flush, I'd spend your Hock money somewhere that needs it.

BugBear


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## jaspr (5 Jul 2007)

Thanks BugBear.

I think I'll stick with it a while. I have a Hock blade in another plane and if I can't bear the difference, then I might upgrade this one.

Cheers

jaspr


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## Jarviser (7 Jul 2007)

That blade marking is pre 1960 and they take a nice edge. Need to do a lot of work on the plane and cap iron to fit a thicker blade properly. I would stick with the old one.


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## Smudger (7 Jul 2007)

I agree. I bought a couple of Records and refurbed them, and Andy my Guru properly sharpened the irons (called 'cutters' on Records, I believe) - I was very impressed.
If you can, get hold of a Stay-Set back iron. They fit directly into the plane without modification and make a huge difference, as the iron is held very firmly at three points along its length. They are also slightly thicker with a shallower chip breaker. As Mr C. W. Hampton says, they eliminate the possibility of chatter entirely. On the Bay SS planes go for a premium but IMHO are worth it (on the basis of using a total of one!)

When you have finished the longish process of regrinding and honing the cutter don't, whatever you do, try it out on a piece of wood held in a poorly tightened engineering vice. DAMHIK.


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## Paul Chapman (7 Jul 2007)

Smudger":1nv34ebb said:


> If you can, get hold of a Stay-Set back iron. They fit directly into the plane without modification and make a huge difference, as the iron is held very firmly at three points along its length. They are also slightly thicker with a shallower chip breaker. As Mr C. W. Hampton says, they eliminate the possibility of chatter entirely. On the Bay SS planes go for a premium but IMHO are worth it (on the basis of using a total of one!)



Smudger, 

If you get a second-hand Record from the 60s or earlier with a frog like the one on the right in this picture







and add a Clifton two-piece cap iron, you will in effect have a Stay-set version of a Record (and much cheaper than paying the premium price just to get "SS" stamped on the lever cap). The Record and Clifton Stay-Set cap irons are identical. I agree with you, they are excellent - I have them on all my planes  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Smudger (7 Jul 2007)

Ah, you see in the 40s/50s our school bought LOADS of SS cap irons...

They are still in a cupboard somewhere, and I think I might know where it is!


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## Paul Chapman (7 Jul 2007)

Smudger":3afvy6zx said:


> Ah, you see in the 40s/50s our school bought LOADS of SS cap irons...
> 
> They are still in a cupboard somewhere, and I think I might know where it is!



That's not fair  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Smudger (7 Jul 2007)

That's not half of it! Imagine a small room, 10' x 4', full of planes aqnd plane parts. About 100 #4s, mostly records, boxes of knobs, irons, cap irons, lever caps. Imagine a place where you can go and say 'I've lost the depth stop off my #50 - oh, thanks." Or, "Can I compare a well fettled Stanley, a LN and a Mathieson infill back to back, please? Ta."

The depth comes from the fact that in the 30s and 40s our school was 'technical' - lots of woodwork, metalwork and technical drawing. We have 2 excellent wood teachers and a head of technology who is a very competent hobbyist, and we still teach carpentry and joinery, usually get an Arkwright Award finalist most years. A lot of the equipment was bought up when other schools ditched woodwork altogether.

It is interesting that someone is selling a lot of ex-school stuff on the Bay, especially Record T5s (we've still got a few unused in their boxes...) and #4s, which were by far the most common planes in schools. My copy of Planecraft is ex-college, as it was the standard book used with 'technical' students. For a retirement present I'm thinking of asking for 10 minutes in the stock cupboard...

The wood workshops are a lovely place to go to escape stress! And its very nice to have conversations about tools and techniques with 14 year-olds who are learning the 'old-fashioned' way - hands on and oily!


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## Paul Chapman (7 Jul 2007)

So that's where all the school stuff went  My Record #05 Stay Set, which I picked up for £20 in a second-hand shop, was an ex-school plane. It's engraved "LCC" for London County Council. Very nice condition (after I cleaned it up). Let's know if they ever want to sell off one of those unopened T5s - I remember learning to plane with one of those at school back in the 1950s  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Smudger (7 Jul 2007)

Ha! I think they are thoroughly spoken for!

We learned with #4s, IIRC, but I stopped doing Wood in the third year (went to new school that only did metal) so perhaps I never got to 'big' planes.

I looked up the Clifton 2-part cap irons - looks like a good idea for not much money - why doesn't everybody do it?


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## Paul Chapman (7 Jul 2007)

Smudger":1p0nkqhj said:


> I looked up the Clifton 2-part cap irons - looks like a good idea for not much money - why doesn't everybody do it?



Many people don't like them. I think they're great  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Smudger (8 Jul 2007)

Some people obviously still like 'em - a 4 1/2 SS has just made $202 on the Bay...


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## Benchwayze (8 Jul 2007)

My Luckiest find was a Record No 4, which was my first SS. Found it in a box, under a stall-holder's table at an antique fair. (I have even heard of people thinking that the removable 'cap' means the plane is broken! ) 


The body was rusty, so after haggling it cost £8.00. It's now my favourite smoother. Better even than my Spiers infill 'coffin-shaped' plane. (I adjust that with 3 lb ball-pein hammer.) :wink: 

eBay is fairly well-stocked with Bedrocks and compass planes at the moment btw. 

Happy Bidding folks 
John


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## Smudger (8 Jul 2007)

Best place to find them - they are going for silly prices on eBay at the moment. I paid £20 for a 4 and 4 1/2, both a bit battered but refurbable, and the 4 is sweet.

I found a #5 at a boot sale today, but the sole was so rusted that it was scrap. A great pity. I haven't started buying planes for spare parts yet - should I? Is that a steeper slope?

I also found a Stanley USA #5 with a Stanley frog, Record lever cap and Y-piece, anonymous iron. No tote and rather odd knob. Again, so rusted it wasn't worth the bother, unless anyone knows where I can get spooge in the UK.


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## Hokie (10 Jul 2007)

Did you see the condition of that $202 record? It was mint with the box.


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## Benchwayze (12 Jul 2007)

Paul Chapman":2667xlat said:


> Smudger":2667xlat said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, you see in the 40s/50s our school bought LOADS of SS cap irons...
> ...



All is fair in love and woodwork.
John


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## Benchwayze (12 Jul 2007)

I agree with Paul. Find a plane with a full-face frog, and fit a Clifton 'stay-set' chip-breaker' and better blade, and you have the same effect as a SS cap-iron.

John


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## Smudger (12 Jul 2007)

I've picked up some SS irons and some Cliftons. They seem pretty much the same at first sight. They do seem to clamp the iron pretty well.


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## Benchwayze (12 Jul 2007)

Smudger,

YES.... 

At the right price, buy planes for 'scrappers'. For instance:

It is surprising when the handle of your favourite smoother will break. OK you can make another, but having spare handle lying around will keep you going. I have a nice stock of irons from old wooden planes. I keep the blades sharp against the time when I get around to making that 'Krenov' inspired wooden smother!

Seriously, buy any reasonable plane at the right price, especially if it's from pre-1940. If only because it might well be older than me! 

(An Acorn cap iron might not look so good, but if it works, it will keep a Stanley or Record doing its job, until you find a proper replacement part. ) 

All the best .
John


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## Smudger (12 Jul 2007)

You make great sense. After a chat today I had decided to start a parts box - actually I've already got one, but I'm in denial! Refurbing planes is also a hobby, my wife tells me!


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## Scrit (12 Jul 2007)

jaspr":1ehnv4jy said:


> It seems very hard. Can anyone tell me what type of steel it is. I mean how does it relate to what I'm used to seeing labelled as O1, A2, D2, etc?


Just a quick note about the steel types (from my notes on steel made in the early 1980s):

O-1 is an oil-hardening, non-deforming tool steel which can be hardened at relatively low temperatures. It has good wearing qualities since the tungsten and higher chromium content gives improved wear resistance over the straight manganese steels. Machinability and grindability are both excellent.

W-1 is a water-hardening steel similar to O1 except for the fact that it is hardened in water. It is often supplied in dimension ground rod form for use making twist drills, etc.

A-2 is an air hardening tool steel containing five percent chromium. It is used as a replacement for O-1 by some manufacturers as it requires less skill to harden successfully without distortion and it does have better wear and edge holding characterstics, but at the cost of more difficulty when hand sharpening. It provides an intermediate grade between the oil hardening and the high carbon, high chromium (D-2) types. 

D-2 is a high carbon, high chromium heat treatable tool steel intended for applications requiring high wear resistance such as dies, punches, mould components. It is more difficult to machine and grind than O1 or W1 due to the added hardness making it far less suitable for hand sharpening.

Older Sheffield blades are typically a high carbon steel tip heat welded onto a low-carbon back, however the inconsistency of the Sheffield cast crucible method of steel production means that the carbon content of blades varies tremendously as does their hardness

Scrit


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## jaspr (13 Jul 2007)

Thanks for the further information, Scrit.

The blade I described in the opening post doesn't show any signs of a join between two types of metal. Not like the old tapered Henry Boker blades I have that came out of old wooden planes.

From what you say it sounds like it is O1 steel, though. This is also what bugbear thought.

It's a nice tough blade, though. It sharpens up well and holds it's edge. That's what made me think it might have been hardened more than the norm.

As for stay set cap irons, I've never seen one; but they sound interesting. I'm newly converted to the Hock cap irons - full length support for the blade and a sharp slippery chip breaker. They are great.


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