# The Chop, Sky History (Sky 123)Thuesday 15th 9:00



## Racers (11 Oct 2020)

Are we going to be watching it?





__





All Shows | Sky HISTORY UK TV Channel







www.history.co.uk





Pete


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## Doug B (11 Oct 2020)

Racers said:


> Are we going to be watching it?
> 
> Pete



What time do you want us to turn up Pete? Do we need to bring cake


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## Lazurus (11 Oct 2020)

I will give it a try methinks!


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## Racers (11 Oct 2020)

Doug B said:


> What time do you want us to turn up Pete? Do we need to bring cake


Of course you bring cake

Pete


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## Steliz (11 Oct 2020)

I don't have Sky TV so, you guys watch it and I'll tune in here for the forensic analysis. One of the celebrity presenters is dressed as a lumberjack and I'm going to let that fact cloud my judgement.


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## Fitzroy (11 Oct 2020)

Having watched the trailer I decided to avoid it until someone tells me it’s not something that I’m going to end up shouting at the TV over every 5 minutes.


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## bjm (11 Oct 2020)

Fitzroy said:


> Having watched the trailer I decided to avoid it until someone tells me it’s not something that I’m going to end up shouting at the TV over every 5 minutes.


I too saw the trailer and don't hold out any hope for this!!


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## Alpha-Dave (11 Oct 2020)

From the trailer, Lee Mack said that ‘the winner would be crowned Britain’s best woodworker’. Now, I suspect that this is an opportunistic cash-in on popular hobbies given how successful Master Chef, Bake Off are, and Sewing Bee is quite popular, but there weren’t guilds for those activities, mostly village & county fairs. So I would have to assume that they are aiming for amateurs rather than professionals, but that wasn’t clear from the trailer. 

It could be interesting; I have found that the early series of this sort of ‘competitive’ TV are better in the early seasons where the challenges are somewhat relatable, rather than later series where the competition get ridiculous. 

*I mostly wish that they would bring back Scrap Heap Challenge and Robot Wars. *


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## Cabinetman (11 Oct 2020)

The scary thought is that the people who make it have probably been on here reading everything we write and trying to understand what makes us tick, because sure as eggs is eggs they won’t have a chuffing clue. A load of airy fairy liberal do gooders that haven’t done a days hard work in their lives, who don’t know one end of a plane from the other. It’s like on that restoration program where they have dressed them all up in leather aprons, I’ve never worn an apron in my life – I imagine the people that have to wear them are embarrassed.
It will probably be successful but we will all be horse from screaming at the television if we are suckered into watching it (yeah I know I’ll give it a whizz the same as all the rest of us). Ian
The winner will be crowned Britain Britain’s best woodworker? No, just the best of the rest.


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## Doug B (12 Oct 2020)

You boys aren’t selling it very well to me, it’s a long walk to Pete’s especially when carrying cake tins.


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## Linwoodjoinery (12 Oct 2020)

As I said to the mrs, the show is already floored. How can they be crowned Britain’s best woodworker when I’m still waiting for my invite!


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## HamsterJam (12 Oct 2020)

No Sky here, so that’ll be a nope.


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## Racers (12 Oct 2020)

Screeming at the television and eating cake, sounds like a good night in!

Pete


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## Shavings (13 Oct 2020)

Next exiting series... Britain's best stamp collector..watch them glue hinges on...


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## AndyT (13 Oct 2020)

I'm reminded of the time when a production company popped up on here asking for people to join in and appear in a TV series - the responses from the "cynical bunch of miserable curmudgeons " can be seen here 









Creative Craftsmen Need For A New TV Show.


Hi There, Hope you all don't mind me posting on here out of the blue. I am posting from a TV Production Company called Thoroughly Modern Media. We are currently working on a brand new show and are looking for Amazing, talented and creative: Furniture Makers Upholsterers Carpenters Kitchen...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk





The production company went rather quiet...


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## Cabinetman (13 Oct 2020)

Did anybody ever work out what the program was that they eventually made – presumably, or maybe not if they couldn’t find anybody more willing than us curmudgeons.


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## Droogs (13 Oct 2020)

Probably that repair show


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## rafezetter (13 Oct 2020)

Considering that they can't even get one of the presenters names right - have a look in the synposis....  production values can't be all that great.

Will Hardie on his own, maybe, but the other two? No thanks.


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## Racers (14 Oct 2020)

Only one more sleep to go lads!

Pete


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## Ollie78 (14 Oct 2020)

I wonder if this is the show Felder were selling the slightly used machines from the other day?


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## Droogs (14 Oct 2020)

more than likely. Probably says it all really. Felder may have had a preview and obviously don't think they will be needed for a a 2nd season


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## Terry - Somerset (15 Oct 2020)

Woodworking covers a wide range of skills.

Do you expect TV to work best for demonstrations of cutting fine dovetails, optimal plane sharpening, using a veneer press etc.

Or is it more likely to be who can operate the loudest chain saw and come up with the quickest 5 bar gate from a pile of CLS.

Not prejudging it of course!


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## Nelsun (15 Oct 2020)

I'll be tracking the first episode down... if only to play "Spot the *Tool". There's also some payback to be had with the better half; for all the knitting and cooking videos she makes my eyes bleed with.

*humans included


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## Chippyjoe (15 Oct 2020)

Ollie78 said:


> I wonder if this is the show Felder were selling the slightly used machines from the other day?



Don't think it is, as I thought that show was done in Wales could be wrong.


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## MARK.B. (15 Oct 2020)

Going to give it a look and if not my cup of tea then i will rewatch an episode of Norm


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## space.dandy (15 Oct 2020)

Hi all,

I've just had an email advert from Triton who are sponsoring this TV show The Chop. I just thought I'd share it here for those who are interested in that sort of thing.

Chris


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## bourbon (15 Oct 2020)

I've got it recorded. I think it may be a bit like 'bake off' but less edible


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## toolsntat (15 Oct 2020)

AndyT said:


> I'm reminded of the time when a production company popped up on here asking for people to join in and appear in a TV series - the responses from the "cynical bunch of miserable curmudgeons " can be seen here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The production company went rather quiet...

Was it a silent movie ?........


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## Droogs (15 Oct 2020)

Must have been hand tool only alla Fidgen


See this chop has the handy guy from Restoman and the shed building program


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## Trainee neophyte (15 Oct 2020)

Will there be push sticks? PPE and hi-vi jackets coming out of their ears, obviously, but will there be push sticks?


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## Racers (15 Oct 2020)

Are we shouting yet? And where's my cake!

Pete


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## AJB Temple (15 Oct 2020)

It would be greatly improved if Lee Mack was not constantly making snide remarks.


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## Racers (16 Oct 2020)

I thought he was funny. 

Pete


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## Racers (16 Oct 2020)

Well it seemed to focus on the people more than the woodworking, which is usual for TV shows.
Theu havd picked out a disparate bunch to try and cause some tension, but the bloke with the face tattoos seems a nice guy.
A couple of flaky ones as well.

The stool from a log was a simple task but most made a right hash of it, only the boke who did the carving had the right idea.

The chap who did the chest in the individual task has some skills.

Pete


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## Distinterior (16 Oct 2020)

Racers said:


> I thought he was funny.
> 
> Pete



I also think he is funny,.......But not on this program. To be honest, I dont know why he is even on the show as he has no interest in Woodwork, as he freely admitted yesterday morning on the Radio 2 breakfast show......and it's not as if he is floating around the workshop making the contestants laugh.

After the first episode, you can see there are some capable woodworkers taking part and good luck to all of them, but I think it's quite a stretch to suggest the winner is going to be voted "Britains Best Woodworker ".......


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## bjm (16 Oct 2020)

A question for those that watched it - I don't have sky - is the program likely to encourage or discourage people from trying this woodworking malarkey? Or is it too early to tell?


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## AJB Temple (16 Oct 2020)

It's difficult to know what the target audience is. My wife, who has never partaken in any wood work except helping me lift beans, pronounced it interesting. She also spotted a Festool case so she must be paying attention. 

The bloke with his entire head covered in tattoos, including his eyelids, she noted has very big biceps. He also appears to have the most woodworking skills so far, but does not listen to or properly interpret the brief.


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## Dave Brookes (16 Oct 2020)

Watched it .......another one that will not be watched again.
Rubbish presenters and that supposed comedian Lee Mack, not for me.

dave


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## Tazmat43 (18 Oct 2020)

I don't get why any other series like Masterchef, Bake Off, have a bunch of judge's who don't knock the contestants skill or ability, yet a series in which the knowledge you need to enter takes years that, you have someone constantly cracking jokes at contestants expense and taking the p£&& out of then openly. 
I wasn't impressed at all if someone was to do that on other shows people would jump right off the deep end, I know I wouldn't be happy applying for a show then upon see it, found out a B list comic was constantly taking the p*£# out of everyone, I'd be embarrassed as hell. Only one person who actually knows the right end of a chisel, I had an idea it would be like this, and I was utterly right, I know we're all poke fun at our self with the odd cock up here and there but to have several time spent adults showing their talent to constantly be popped at is just wrong to be honest, as I said if you did this on Bake Off WW3 would ensue, a good show and idea put so badly produced I fell so sorry for all the contestants to be honest, sorry for the small novella but I had to say something


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## galleywood (18 Oct 2020)

For those of us that don't have Sky, 'The Chop' can be seen on Youtube.


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## bjm (18 Oct 2020)

galleywood said:


> For those of us that don't have Sky, 'The Chop' can be seen on Youtube.


I've just had to watch that on fast-forward as the annoying commentary from Lee Mack was getting unbearable. It might be watchable without him?


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## Nelsun (18 Oct 2020)

galleywood said:


> For those of us that don't have Sky, 'The Chop' can be seen on Youtube.


Brilliant, thanks for pointing that out. The Better Half was quite distraught at not having to suffer her way through it. Not. Any. More.


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## Lons (18 Oct 2020)

AndyT said:


> I'm reminded of the time when a production company popped up on here asking for people to join in and appear in a TV series - the responses from the "cynical bunch of miserable curmudgeons " can be seen here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  That made my night, was before my time so hadn't seen it.

I'd have been cynical as well. When the guy from DeWalt contacted me to ask if I wanted to test and keep a new cordless nail gun my initial reaction was "yeah pull the other one whats the scam"


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## Trevanion (18 Oct 2020)

Just gave it a watch, if these are Britain's "top woodworkers" the craft is truly doomed! 

The frontier table was an interesting project but I do think each team was a little overstaffed which probably caused it to be more time inefficient than it should've been. In six hours, a particularly skilled craftsman more than likely could bang out one of those tables without too much issue to a similar standard by one's self. I particularly liked Glyn's wedges though, that was a nice touch I thought, and quite well done with just standard bench chisels!

The log stools were a bit of a farce but to be fair they were given rubbish gear to get the job done, you would have a hell of a time trying to rive a straight piece out of a log with a wood grenade as a splitting wedge!   It seemed a little that the 'tool acquisition' side of the program didn't really know much about what they were sourcing.

The "Creative task" where each had to build their own project from their own design was quite interesting. Not sure if Tattooy McTattooface (Darren, who actually seems very competent to be fair) actually understood the aim of the task but what he made was an excellent bit of furniture but not exactly in keeping with the specified brief at all! Otherwise, there were some interesting pieces made in ten hours.

I didn't think it was a terrible program actually. Yes, the constant remarks every other second from Lee Mack did get a little irritating after a while but on the whole, I've watched worse! I imagine woodworking is a very difficult thing to record and keep your average punter interested in the content, whereas something like blacksmithing has all the drama of the hot metal, sparks, and hammering whilst woodworking is rather slow and meticulous by comparison (Although blacksmithing can be very meticulous!). Of course, it's not "proper" woodworking as such but I'd watch another episode.


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## mynamehere (19 Oct 2020)

There's a whole series of documentaries on youtube from german tv, it's called "SWR Handwerkskunst" where allsorts gets built from violins to huge yard gates, tables, boats etc., no drama or annoying commentary and background music and put together really really well to show the craftsman and the process of the build.
The only drawback that it's all in german...

Cheers!

Ferenc


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## Nelsun (19 Oct 2020)

We watched it last night and it was better than expected. I'm sure they said in the intro that they'd gathered some of the UK's top woodworkers... hmmm... not so sure about that. All in all I enjoyed it and, when asked for a brief summary, the Better Half described it as "entertaining and I'd watch it again". She can, and does, watch anything whilst knitting so that's not especially high praise!


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## Droogs (19 Oct 2020)

mynamehere said:


> There's a whole series of documentaries on youtube from german tv, it's called "SWR Handwerkskunst" where allsorts gets built from violins to huge yard gates, tables, boats etc., no drama or annoying commentary and background music and put together really really well to show the craftsman and the process of the build.
> The only drawback that it's all in german...
> 
> Cheers!
> ...


Ausgezeichnet, keine probleme fur mich Hoffentlich ein unterhaltsamer Abend


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## mynamehere (19 Oct 2020)

Droogs said:


> Ausgezeichnet, keine probleme fur mich Hoffentlich ein unterhaltsamer Abend


Schau es mal an, gibt ein paar ganz schöne Sachen...


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## Cabinetman (19 Oct 2020)

Yes what he said! Or maybe not.
My go to program at the moment is Combat Dealers on Quest (Freeview) the guy pulls wonderful girning faces as he buys and sells old Second World War tanks and trucks and basically anything else he can get his hands on, good stuff going on in the workshop as well. Ian


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## Benchwayze (19 Oct 2020)

Saw Lee Mack. 'Nuff said. Plenty of ideas though, so I will stay with this. Thanks for the heads up.

John


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## lurker (19 Oct 2020)

Benchwayze said:


> Saw Lee Mack. 'Nuff said. Plenty of ideas though, so I will stay with this. Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> John


Good to see you back, John


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## Benchwayze (19 Oct 2020)

Many thanks Lurker. Good to be back. Just need to re educate certain muscles! Cheers.

John


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## TJC (20 Oct 2020)

Everyone is OK with the Nazi they decided to allow on then?


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## Droogs (20 Oct 2020)

did I miss something - Nazi?


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## samhay (20 Oct 2020)

Watched it on YouTube.
Was pleasantly surprised I didn't have to waid through loads of adds.
Found the commentary and editing both deeply annoying. Watched most of it on 2x speed just to see the final products. Some of the contestants are quite handy, but there's not much time spent watching them do anything and far too much time with the hosts prattling on and largely demeaning everyone else. I found it bizarre, and not in a good way. Won't be watching any more.


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## TJC (20 Oct 2020)

The guy with the tattoos, half of them are white supremacy symbols.
I assumed these were more common knowledge these days, but perhaps not. They were originally supposed to be a code I guess. 

88 - heil hitler
23/16 - white power

There are others..


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## Trevanion (20 Oct 2020)

Ahah! I just *knew* somebody would bring up the Nazis! Ah, wait... wrong thread


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## Steliz (20 Oct 2020)

TJC said:


> The guy with the tattoos, half of them are white supremacy symbols.
> I assumed these were more common knowledge these days, but perhaps not. They were originally supposed to be a code I guess.
> 
> 88 - heil hitler
> ...



Apparently the number tattoos are all just an unfortunate coincidence! To commemorate the death of his father in 1988 he decided to have 88 tattood on his face so that whenever he looks in the mirror he'll be reminded, not of his father, but of the year he died! Makes perfect sense.


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## TJC (20 Oct 2020)

Steliz said:


> Apparently the number tattoos are all just an unfortunate coincidence!



Yeah, and I've got a bridge to sell you... 

Also, he claims to be 28, so unless his father froze his sperm, it doesn't really stack up...


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## Droogs (20 Oct 2020)

how is 23/16 white power is it some sort of text speak?

and isn't 88 two fat ladies


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## AJB Temple (20 Oct 2020)

It would appear Sky history has taken the show off air whilst they investigate the numerous symbols he is sporting. You learn something every day as I had never heard of these white supremacy symbols.


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## bjm (20 Oct 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> It would appear Sky history has taken the show off air whilst they investigate the numerous symbols he is sporting. You learn something every day as I had never heard of these white supremacy symbols.


So someone else could get the chop!!!


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## Peter Sefton (20 Oct 2020)

Let's hope it's an innocent mistake and they haven't given a nutter airtime. I thought the show was ok, but shame the projects are not based on english furniture design rather than taking an American theme.

Cheers Peter


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## Droogs (20 Oct 2020)

i believe Peter they would have had a different era/theme each week


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## craigs (20 Oct 2020)

So i just flicked through this show on YT and the "nutter" in question seems like a decent bloke, giving the coloured guy a hug, that isn't something a white supremacist would dream of. but what do i know...........burn the witches?


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## doctor Bob (20 Oct 2020)

Droogs said:


> how is 23/16 white power is it some sort of text speak?
> 
> and isn't 88 two fat ladies



substitute letters as number values of alphabet.
23/16 = WP = white power

I don't think you can say fat ladies these days.....................


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## Droogs (20 Oct 2020)

Why what's wrong with using ladies?

Thanks for the number explanation I had no clue at all about that


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## Andy Kev. (21 Oct 2020)

craigsalisbury said:


> So i just flicked through this show on YT and the "nutter" in question seems like a decent bloke, giving the coloured guy a hug, that isn't something a white supremacist would dream of. but what do i know...........burn the witches?


I think you're right and he did come across as a friendly enough sort of bloke.

In any event, with all those tattoos, he's surely a blue supremacist.

As for the prog: the actual woodworking was quite interesting (as you would expect) and I was impressed that the contenders could produce work under time pressure without any of them going to pieces.

The only annoying bit was the format of the show. Media types seem to be generally uncreative and conformist. I think I would have preferred something a bit more intelligent. Does it really need a commentator (although he was (very) mildly amusing)? And what was the bloke who accompanied the bloke in the hat in the workshop supposed to be contributing?


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## thetyreman (21 Oct 2020)

the bald tattooed guy cracks me up, the master carver man seems to know what he's doing and he's pretending he doesn't. I'm not sure I'll watch any other episodes but it wasn't as bad as I was expecting.


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## MarkDennehy (21 Oct 2020)

Steliz said:


> Apparently the number tattoos are all just an unfortunate coincidence! To commemorate the death of his father in 1988 he decided to have 88 tattood on his face so that whenever he looks in the mirror he'll be reminded, not of his father, but of the year he died! Makes perfect sense.


This'd be the same father quoted in the Daily Mail today as saying _"I'm not dead..."_


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## Essex Barn Workshop (21 Oct 2020)

Chop is axed!


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## Alpha-Dave (21 Oct 2020)

So it is now ‘officially’ pulled due to the tattoos potentially being racist. The Chop: Sky pulls TV woodwork show over contestant's tattoos

I wish that before it aired we had run a sweepstake on why we thought the program would have been pulled/not renewed for a 2nd season.

My money would have been poor format or Lee Mack, I doubt we would have got to ‘white supremacy facial tattoos’.


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## Racers (21 Oct 2020)

Seems they have cocked up big time, I guess no one will be voted white, sorry best wood worker.

Pete


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## thetyreman (21 Oct 2020)

Essex Barn Workshop said:


> Chop is axed


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## Droogs (21 Oct 2020)

I AM GETTING A LITTLE cheesed OFF AT HAVING MY POSTS DELETED


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## Trevanion (21 Oct 2020)

I miss when steam was the only power


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## doctor Bob (21 Oct 2020)

Droogs said:


> I AM GETTING A LITTLE cheesed OFF AT HAVING MY POSTS DELETED


Indeed Droogs, life is quite dull and a little bit depressing when you realise how "woke" everyone is these days. I have been informed that "b-----r m------r is inappropriate language, quite possibly it is, so we are back to two fat ladies, I stand corrected as your terminology still stands undeleted.


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## craigs (21 Oct 2020)

I got a message saying my post was deleted but i still see it? am i missing something? can we have a list of banned words on this forum now..or would that thread get too long and crash the forum?


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## --Tom-- (21 Oct 2020)

Anyone got a link to an ep on YouTube, quick search only revealed trailers


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## Droogs (21 Oct 2020)

--Tom-- said:


> Anyone got a link to an ep on YouTube, quick search only revealed trailers


They have been taken down due to controversy about neo-nazis celebrating when their dad died 4 years before they were born and stuff like that pl;astered all over their face


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## Droogs (21 Oct 2020)

doctor Bob said:


> Indeed Droogs, life is quite dull and a little bit depressing when you realise how "woke" everyone is these days. I have been informed that "b-----r m------r is inappropriate language, quite possibly it is, so we are back to two fat ladies, I stand corrected as your terminology still stands undeleted.


But I have already got next door's 8 year old to update MS Word to replace fat and ladies and he's gone off to bed now


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## Daniel2 (21 Oct 2020)

I had to look up "woke"

And, yes, @doctor Bob I have to agree with you there.


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## Trevanion (21 Oct 2020)

What is the world coming to when you can't say the _timeless_ description of "blubber Ladies" as a joke anymore...







Cmon...


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## doctor Bob (21 Oct 2020)




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## Deadeye (21 Oct 2020)

craigsalisbury said:


> I got a message saying my post was deleted but i still see it? am i missing something? can we have a list of banned words on this forum now..or would that thread get too long and crash the forum?


Try place names:
Wastwater, Lake District
Scunthorpe
C0cks, Cornwall
Bell End, Worcestershire
Twatt, Shetland


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## doctor Bob (21 Oct 2020)

I think it's just a case of someone reading too much Daily Mail and taking offense that a member may be offended by a non directed statement.
I'd get it if I had actually called a mod it, or an over-sensitive jumped up wally for example, but I'd never do that.


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## Droogs (21 Oct 2020)

Oh dear ....  
After attempting to restore MS Word's dictionary, the WI have just told me that "I will never be asked to do the bingo calling for the Leith weight watchers club again"

Apparently "Twa Fat M******s" is a bit gauche


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## Terrytpot (22 Oct 2020)

my post got ditched too and all it had was a link to another tv show...go figure


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## Daniel2 (22 Oct 2020)

The Germans might well wonder what all the fuss is about.


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## AJB Temple (22 Oct 2020)

You can't say Jesus Chris Trev...it breaks the rule on religion.


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## DBT85 (22 Oct 2020)

The first time woodwork gets new TV airtime in who knows how long and they've ballsed it up already.


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## Blackswanwood (22 Oct 2020)

DBT85 said:


> The first time woodwork gets new TV airtime in who knows how long and they've ballsed it up already.


Bring back Norm Abraham and The New Yankee Workshop


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## DBT85 (22 Oct 2020)

Blackswanwood said:


> Bring back Norm Abraham and The New Yankee Workshop


As yes. An old favourite and probably what spawned much of my interest when I was younger. "blade guard removed for filming purposes". OK Norm. We totally believe you.


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## Stanleymonkey (22 Oct 2020)

The contestant's dad has been found and said he's alive and well! His carer says son hasn't visited for many years.


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## DBT85 (22 Oct 2020)

Father of The Chop contestant still alive - after he said 88 Nazi symbol was tribute to year he died


‘I’m here aren’t I? I’m alive and kicking so I’m not dead yet,’ says 66-year-old Trevor Lumsden




www.independent.co.uk






Stanleymonkey said:


> The contestant's dad has been found and said he's alive and well! His carer says son hasn't visited for many years.


If that's true maybe we shouldn't be entirely shocked that a skinhead with face tattoos that just happen to have links to nazis is in fact a nazi.


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## artie (22 Oct 2020)

Anyone remember Hometime, with Dean Johnston and Joanne Liebeler.

I used to watch it at lunchtime, seems a long time ago.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Oct 2020)

Bring back Barry Bucknell!


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## AJB Temple (22 Oct 2020)

Stanleymonkey said:


> The contestant's dad has been found and said he's alive and well! His carer says son hasn't visited for many years.


The farther has short term memory loss. Hence he would only remember visits from many years ago. 

The whole thing is a farce. And I have no idea who Barry Bucknell is or Norm for that matter.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Oct 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> The farther has short term memory loss. Hence he would only remember visits from many years ago.


But it wasn't he who said it, it was his carer.

Barry Bucknell - Wikipedia He was responsible for the wholesale internal destruction of a huge number of first class Victorian and Edwardian houses.


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## AJB Temple (22 Oct 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> But it wasn't he who said it, it was his carer.


I know, But that doesn't work for the joke.

I am finding it hard to take this whole thing seriously now. It will soon be part of Lee Mack's stand up routine. You couldn't make it up. At least I can now recognise a white supremacist when I see one. I am guessing he doesn't fully buy in to BLM.


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## Andy Kev. (22 Oct 2020)

I had a bit of a think about this last night and it occured to me that the bloke's choice in tattoos is his business. What can reasonably be of interest to others is how he conducts himself and as far as I can see he was perfectly pleasant to the black bloke, so for me that means that he is capable of keeping his suspected politics to himself and behaving in a civilised manner and that means case closed.

The second thing that occurred to me is that there must be some right saddos out there who have nothing better to do than analyse other people's tattoos. Each to his own of course and I suppose it is of massive significance to those obsessed with body art. It seems to me, however, to be on a par with dogs sniffing each other's behinds: clearly of central importance to your average canine but not something that any sensible human being would take an interest in.

Or am I being too easy going?


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## bjm (22 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> ...
> 
> Or am I being too easy going?


There are no rights or wrongs, only cancel!


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## DBT85 (22 Oct 2020)

If you paint a swastika on your house is that OK too?


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## Andy Kev. (22 Oct 2020)

DBT85 said:


> If you paint a swastika on your house is that OK too?


I suppose that theoretically it must be OK. Yep, a lot of people are going to be offended, especially anybody Jewish.

The question is: to what extent are you prepared to alienate everybody else? Were parliament to outlaw the displaying of the swastika (as is the case in Germany) then the matter would be quite clear. If it's not illegal in the UK, then it must be OK. If your swastika were absolutely massive, then it would be aesthetically out of order, like e.g. having a Banksy mural on the wall or like that shark that somebody built into his roof but if it's discreet ...

I'm skating around this for the simple reason that if you ban one form of political expression, then you have to ban them all. At the moment we are seeing a lot of so-called "cancel culture" and people who like to ban things which IMO is itself pretty fascist. The best thing is to keep politics for election time. If you don't like nazis (and I certainly don't) then you don't have to have anything to do with them and if they break the law - which they surely sooner or later will - then you've got them bang to rights anyway.

For the Mods: I'm aware that that last paragraph is perilously close to the ban on matters political being discussed and should you feel it necessary to delete it, then fair enough.


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## DBT85 (22 Oct 2020)

You are absolutely free to paint "Hitler was a Saint" on your forehead if it's what takes your fancy. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. No sensible TV channel or presenter will want to be linked in any way to someone displaying nazi symbols for very clear and obvious reasons and it's no shock at all that this was pulled when they eventually had it pointed out.

If someone wants to paint their face, calling people saddos for looking at it (where else are we supposed to look?) and noticing that there are these symbols of hate etched on there seems rather pathetic.


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## Andy Kev. (22 Oct 2020)

You're slightly misrepresenting what I posted: most folk wouldn't have recognised anything on his face just by normal "looking" - witness the general reaction on here to the allegations and I know I certainly didn't - therefore the people who recognised what they did must be obsessive saddos to conduct what must have been an almost forensic examination of the bloke's face, hence my canine comparison. It would have been better to have kept quiet about it, given that he seemed to be acting in a perfectly normal way. All that's happened is that publicity has been generated and a possible martyr has been created for RW extremists. What we seem to have ended up with is LW extremists having collected a RW extremist scalp. And that's about on the level of mutually sniffing dogs. And a woodworking prog has been given the chop.

Now if he'd actually done or said anything unpleasant, that would have been a different kettle of fish entirely.


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## Droogs (22 Oct 2020)

Perhaps the people who pointed it out may be those who have suffered at the hands of racists. Who knows there may have been a black viewer whose sibling, parent, grand parent was lynched by this sort of group at some time in the past or who has had their family terrorized by them that reported it. I would definitely think if I were a member of a community that has had a history of persecution from people such as these, I would be very aware of their symbols and codes, don't you?


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## TJC (22 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> I know I certainly didn't - therefore the people who recognised what they did must be obsessive saddos to conduct what must have been an almost forensic examination of the bloke's face



I'll assume this is aimed at me. 

You shouldn't use your own ignorance to criticise others, however rich a vein it may be. 

He has a large 88 on his face, it's commonly known that 88 is shorthand for Heil Hitler. If you'd be happy to watch a TV show with someone wearing Heil Hitler t-shirt as a guest that's your prerogative, but thankfully no UK production company would touch that with a bargepole. 

White supremacy isn't a political opinion, and isn't a stance I consider worthy of respect.


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## Nelsun (22 Oct 2020)

Calling folk who recognise details in things "obsessive saddos" does not hold up in this case. Nazi symbolism is not exactly a niche topic - so I'm not surprised some folk had a "hang-on-a-minute" moment at all.


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## Nelly111s (22 Oct 2020)

I feel sorry for the other contestants. One of them has already won this (it must have been filmed pre-lockdown) and can claim to be “Britain’s Best Woodworker”. If you were trying to use the opportunity of being on the programme to springboard your career, it’s now been dashed. 
Whatever the rights or wrongs of the programme, if you were just starting a woodwork career, a massive amount of publicity wouldn’t hurt a bit.


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## AJB Temple (22 Oct 2020)

I think to be fair, not many everyday people would make white supremacist associations from these number groupings. I had no idea that people used 88 to signify HH, had never heard of the 14 words and so on. To me, when I first saw him, I just saw a man covered in tattoos and was surprised that he had been able to endure having his eyelids done. I regard facial tattoos as really quite a daft thing to do, but them focussed on his woodwork. I would have been none the wiser had it not been for the press articles. 

Although I regard practically all of the woke stuff currently as nonsense promulgated by people who like to spout off and be professionally offended but largely ignore real poverty and oppression elsewhere in the world, I don't think this is in the woke or even politically correct category. There is no way that Sky or any TV network in the Western world can show this now that the racist connotations have been made, as he is a walking billboard. I would imagine he is now a pariah where he lives too, and I pity his children. 

It would seem that the story about his father being deceased was a very foolish step as it was bound to be checked. The Sky production team have been gullible, but to be frank I would not have made these associations either. The lie destroys his credibility about everything else.


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## bjm (22 Oct 2020)

Nelly111s said:


> .. One of them has already won this.....


What if he was the winner?


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## Blackswanwood (22 Oct 2020)

bjm said:


> What if he was the winner?


If he's not I bet the person who was is pretty hacked off!


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Oct 2020)

I keep reading everywhere that everyone knows 88 = Heil Hitler. Neither I nor my my wife neither of us illiterate or stupid had ever heard it before.


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## doctor Bob (22 Oct 2020)

I think these days, most younger generations would know the symbols from certain well know box sets.
Would I have spotted it, don't know, but I knew what the symbols represented.
Am I an obsessive saddo, yes maybe.


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## bjm (22 Oct 2020)

I wonder if there is a section later in the series where Lee Mack is going 'So, tell us more about some of your tats then...'


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## Andy Kev. (22 Oct 2020)

Droogs,

what you suggest may indeed have been the case but if we are to discuss this dispassionately - probably the best way to discuss any potentially worrying set of circumstances - I suggest that as a rule it is best to stick to what is known fact as opposed to what might be, although I do of course understand your point.

TJC,

that's a bit paranoid! I was making a general point and I assure you that if I had wanted to direct it at you, I would have done so. You appear to have not hoiked on board the fact that I hadn't identified a single detail of his tattoos (I just thought his face was a dismal mess and wondered why any human being would want to do that to themselves) and so was happy to watch the prog in my innocence.

Nelsun,

with the exception of the universally known swastika, I doubt very much that most people would know a Nazi symbol if they fell over it and it said "Sieg Heil!" to them. That sort of esoterica is not widely known although I'll cough to having read an explanation of where Combat 18 got its name from. So my obsessive saddos remark stands.

Come to think of it, the TV company missed a chance here. All they had to do was excise all of his contributions from the programme (assuming that he is guilty as charged, although we seem to have abandoned "innocent until proven guilty" and he does not appear to have committed a civil or criminal offence, irrespective of how offensive we may find his alleged views*) and say something along the lines of, "One contestant was asked to leave the programme due to the displaying of political symbols which is against our house policy" and then - and this is surely the most important thing - the prog could have been shown to the end. Mind you, if he did win it, as BJM suggests, they could have just blacked out his face, or superimposed a portrait of Malcom X on it, which would have constituted an amusing dig at him.

*Edit: from what AJB says, he does appear to be guilty as charged.


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## doctor Bob (22 Oct 2020)

pretend it doesn't exist?


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## Daniel2 (22 Oct 2020)

Detriment & punishment for all, from the actions of one.
That rings a faint bell somewhere....

...Just saying


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## bjm (22 Oct 2020)

Daniel2 said:


> Detriment & punishment for all, from the actions of one.
> That rings a faint bell somewhere....
> 
> ...Just saying


The sins of the father....


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## pcb1962 (22 Oct 2020)

TJC said:


> He has a large 88 on his face, it's commonly known that 88 is shorthand for Heil Hitler.


Judging from everything I've read on this forum and the other that I frequent, it is not commonly known at all.


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## Daniel2 (22 Oct 2020)

pcb1962 said:


> Judging from everything I've read on this forum and the other that I frequent, it is not commonly known at all.



I certainly didn't know it before, either.
However, that cannot excuse it. I think we can safely assume that
the guy (LGBT++ et al), knew it's meaning full well whilst choosing 
to have it indelibly marked in a very visible place.
Therefore, for his part, it is a very clear statement to the outside
world. In itself that is reprehensible. The statement represents a 
very dangerous road to be on.


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## Nelsun (22 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> Nelsun,
> 
> with the exception of the universally known swastika, I doubt very much that most people would know a Nazi symbol if they fell over it and it said "Sieg Heil!" to them. That sort of esoterica is not widely known although I'll cough to having read an explanation of where Combat 18 got its name from. So my obsessive saddos remark stands.


That doesn't address those that can and will know what the symbols mean: those at the suffering end and those inducing the suffering. I wouldn't call either "obsessive saddos".


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## TJC (22 Oct 2020)

pcb1962 said:


> Judging from everything I've read on this forum and the other that I frequent, it is not commonly known at all.


Perhaps you're right. I think there's certainly a generational component.

However, searching Google for just '88' and every result on the first page refers to this code, so pretty poor for it to have got through. 

*edit* and a London bus route.....!


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## Cabinetman (22 Oct 2020)

Also a type of German artillery gun. "Don’t mention the war I did once but I think I got away with it all right" – classic 
Cleese. Ian


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## TheUnicorn (22 Oct 2020)

Nelly111s said:


> I feel sorry for the other contestants. One of them has already won this (it must have been filmed pre-lockdown) and can claim to be “Britain’s Best Woodworker”. If you were trying to use the opportunity of being on the programme to springboard your career, it’s now been dashed.
> Whatever the rights or wrongs of the programme, if you were just starting a woodwork career, a massive amount of publicity wouldn’t hurt a bit.


I agree, I assume as it has cost sky history a couple of million, that they will put together some edited version, easy to do if 'the woodsman' went out at an early round, less easy if he got quite far through. i assume he didn't win as that would have been in the headlines.


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## Steliz (22 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> ..so for me that means that he is capable of keeping his suspected politics to himself..


He has them tattooed all over his face, in what way is he keeping it to himself?



Andy Kev. said:


> The best thing is to keep politics for election time.


The Nazis are not a political party, they are a hate group.



Andy Kev. said:


> ..most folk wouldn't have recognised anything on his face..
> ..a possible martyr has been created for RW extremists.
> Now if he'd actually done or said anything unpleasant, that would have been a different kettle of fish entirely.


It doesn't matter whether anyone recognises them or not, the fact that he has Nazi and White Supremacist symbols tattooed on his face is enough.
He won't be made a martyr because he isn't dead, or likely to be just from this exposure. He would more likely be made a hero by the right wing extremists.
He has done something unpleasant - he has Nazi and White Supremacist symbols tattooed on his face and then gone on TV to promote it.

It seems to me that you are being wilfully blind with a motive to either take fence sitting to the absolute extreme or just standard internet trolling.


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## pcb1962 (22 Oct 2020)

Steliz said:


> he has Nazi and White Supremacist symbols tattooed on his face and then gone on TV to promote it.


I think he went on TV to showcase his woodworking skills, just the same as the other contestants did. 
I very much doubt that he thought "Here's an opportunity to promote white supremacy".


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## artie (22 Oct 2020)

Did he have 73 as well?

He just might be a CB Radio fan.

73 & 88

ten ten we're gone.


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## Steliz (22 Oct 2020)

pcb1962 said:


> I think he went on TV to showcase his woodworking skills, just the same as the other contestants did.
> I very much doubt that he thought "Here's an opportunity to promote white supremacy".


You're right, I didn't mean 'actively' promote but anyone looking at his face is subjected to the 'advertising'.


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## Trevanion (22 Oct 2020)

UKW confuses me sometimes...

The discussion of whether a Neo-Nazi/White Supremacist is entitled to be on TV provided he doesn't mention any politics and whether people should be allowed to paint swastikas on their homes - Fine by us 

Remotely questioning a moderator action about a light-hearted joke - *HOW VERY WELL DARE YOU! DELETED POST AND A SLAP ON THE WRIST FOR YOU! READ RULE 11! 





*


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## craigs (22 Oct 2020)

I'm gonna need more poporn.


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## Droogs (22 Oct 2020)

Have some of mine


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## Ttrees (22 Oct 2020)

Aye I feel sorry for the folks who might have got some exposure from the show,
Hopefully they get some kind of payoff somehow.

Maybe it was just a coincidence though
These things happen you know


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## Lazurus (22 Oct 2020)

Points To ProveI was wondering if there were any offences under the public order act however each shows that there needs to be an intention to stir up hatred, I think that would be very difficult to prove combined with his friendly nature towards the other crafts people on the show.

date and location
displayed written material which was threatening
*intending* to stir up religious hatred or hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation


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## Racers (22 Oct 2020)

craigsalisbury said:


> I'm gonna need more poporn.



I'm still waiting for my cake!

Pete


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## RogerS (22 Oct 2020)

Steliz said:


> You're right, I didn't mean 'actively' promote but anyone looking at his face is subjected to the 'advertising'.


Not really. Given the fast editing these days, I suspect that most of the camera angles will be on what he's actually doing with his hands. SIATC. IMO.


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## DBT85 (22 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> You're slightly misrepresenting what I posted: most folk wouldn't have recognised anything on his face just by normal "looking" - witness the general reaction on here to the allegations and I know I certainly didn't - therefore the people who recognised what they did must be obsessive saddos to conduct what must have been an almost forensic examination of the bloke's face, hence my canine comparison.



I'm not misrepresenting anything. Because you and some other people don't know that a thing is something used by bigots, racists, homophobes etc to hide in plain sight doesn't make people that DO know these things saddos. The whole point of these symbols is to hide their true feelings and wave them in the faces of minorities, jews, etc etc without some of them knowing that they think Hitler was actually a really nice bloke, had great ideas in murdering millions, torturing thousands and generally being "a bit of a nob".

Not knowing that these symbols are embedded in the ideals of utter scum is not a problem. That is their very purpose. To be insidious, to live and breath and HIDE among normal sensible people. If they wanted to be "out" they would write Sieg Heil on their heads, have swasticas etc. They don't.

As for innocent until proven guilty, he has committed no crime. He is free to cover himself in anything he wants to. The rest of the world doesn't have to tolerate it, be associated with it etc.

I imagine Sky will just re edit everything and remove him entirely from the show where possible.


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## Jake (22 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> - therefore the people who recognised what they did must be obsessive saddos to conduct what must have been an almost forensic examination of the bloke's face,



You got tatts Andy?


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## Andy Kev. (23 Oct 2020)

Steliz said:


> He has them tattooed all over his face, in what way is he keeping it to himself?
> 
> 
> The Nazis are not a political party, they are a hate group.
> ...


FWIW I've read a fair bit about Naziism in an attempt to understand how such a political movement could emerge, thrive and nearly come out on top and surprisingly it is very difficult to come up with a brief summary of what defines how monstrous it was. To brand it a "hate group" won't do, if you're talking about the original Nazis. As you get nearer to an understanding of the historical truth, it becomes clear that it was far more complex and far more disturbing than that. But that said, it's clear that your comment refers to a grouping in modern Britain and when dealing with the ill-educated, rather moronic people involved, it's an unsuitable tag which nonetheless serves a purpose.

I tend to think that wearing a couple of pro-Nazi tattoos (cryptic or clear) is more an indicator of inarticulate cluelessness than anything else. I doubt very much if the average "Nazi" in the UK would be able to tell you anything about what Hitler stood for or the horrors which his regime involved. I suspect that for them Hitler is little more than a convenient symbol or brand which carries the added attraction (for them) that any hint of support for him and his movement is regarded as being very naughty indeed and we all know that a lot of young, agressive men love being thought of as bad boys. 

Ultimately in poltical terms, they are a bit of a joke and I cannot imagine the circumstances in which the general public will ever come to take them seriously. Although clearly it is no joke if you are a black bloke who is unfortunate enough to get a kicking from them. What they probably need is resocialising as opposed to ostracising. 

The bloke in question seems to be a good example. He came across as being decent enough, assuming you could get past the dubious aesthetic effect of his facial artwork and assuming that you failed to recognise any of the symbology. The fact that he was friendly to the black bloke makes me think that he may be a little "confused" (to put it kindly). How does he reconcile his instincts as a human being with the ideology which he apparently embraces? It is of course highly unlikely that he understands anything about Nazi ideology (see above).

The whole thing is compounded by the kind of people who froth at the mouth in their "anti-Naziism". It seems to me that at best they are well-meaning but as historically clueless as the people they oppose. At worst they are the equal but opposite of the original Nazis - think SWP.

The conclusion I've come to over the years is that both ends of political extremism are incompatible with a liberal democratic society which spans centre left to centre right. Both extremist roads lead ultimately to death camps or gulags. It really doesn't make much difference if its far right cyanide in your lungs or a far left bullet in the back of your neck that helps you shrug of this mortal coil because they are two sides of the same coin. In moral and ethical terms I can't see any difference between the cancel culture types who prevent academics from speaking and the book-burning brownshirt hordes. 

"A plague on both your houses" seems to catch it for me and I suspect for most of the British public. At the moment the hard left is the bigger threat to western democracy than is the hard right because it is in the ascendancy but I've no doubt that the hard right will re-emerge one day but it won't be in the guise of overly tattood, ill-educated young men.


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## Andy Kev. (23 Oct 2020)

Jake said:


> You got tatts Andy?


Nah, I had always intended to get the crest of Lancashire done on one shoulder and my old regimental badge on the other but never got around to it. Then tattoos became fashionable and who wants to end up in the same camp as the likes of David Beckham? If the day comes when the masses start getting their tattoos removed, I might reactivate the plan.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Oct 2020)

I suspect the only thing the facial tattoos actually prove is that the guy is a bit of a dick.


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## Andy Kev. (23 Oct 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> i suspect the only thing the facial tattoos actually prove is that the guy is a bit of a dick.


I suspect you're right. Unfortunately he has a lot of company.


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## doctor Bob (23 Oct 2020)

I'm quite proud to say that I really have no opinion on facial tattoos, I would like to think it wouldn't stop me employing someone with them or alter my judgement on who to send to site.
Maybe that's due to 35 years ago travelling round Aus for 2 years with a mate covered in Tats. We worked on a sheep station and the boss was visibly horrified by my mates tattoos ................ 35 years later they are still good mates, my friend travels over and visits him every year (the boss is now 90), my mate at 20 could have bought and sold the sheep station half a dozen times as he inherited 6000 acres of prime norfolk land at 19 and Aus was his last horrah before settling into running the farm.


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## Nelly111s (23 Oct 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I suspect the only thing the facial tattoos actually prove is that the guy is a bit of a dick.


Do you know Ben From Crimson Guitars? He’s an excellent woodworker. Look him up on YouTube.


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## Trevanion (23 Oct 2020)

Nelly111s said:


> Do you know Ben From Crimson Guitars? He’s an excellent woodworker. Look him up on YouTube.



Having met Ben a couple of times I can also verify that he is a true gentleman and craftsman.


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## Essex Barn Workshop (23 Oct 2020)

Just to change the drift of this thread a little, this forum and site must contain 100s if not 1,000s of woodworkers from across the country.
Has anyone heard of/met/know any of the contestants?


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## Tom K (23 Oct 2020)

An interesting read can't decide what's sadder though? The fact that a chap with at least some redeeming qualities was in a mental state some years ago (the tats don't appear very fresh) to firstly tattoo his face and even worse with neo-nazi symbols or the fact that there are those would never forgive him for his troubled past?


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## Nelly111s (23 Oct 2020)

Essex Barn Workshop said:


> Just to change the drift of this thread a little, this forum and site must contain 100s if not 1,000s of woodworkers from across the country.
> Has anyone heard of/met/know any of the contestants?


I’ve met / know Sean Evelegh. He’s also mentioned on this weeks Chestnut Products newsletter. Check out his YouTube channel. I believe he’s got a bright future.


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## Just4Fun (23 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> ... there must be some right saddos out there who have nothing better to do than analyse other people's tattoos.


I am late to this thread but this is the phrase that stuck out to me. I have not seen the programme so I don't know how prominent the tattoos were. To spot the 88 would someone interested in tattoos have had to examine his face any more closely than we would have examined his joinery looking for gaps? If not, does that make us all saddos?


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## Droogs (23 Oct 2020)

i do remember the young lad and the video he made about making his inlaid table a few years ago. He did remarkably well for a 15 year old. Didn't click it was him straight away. Just a pity the way he has so far been portrayed does not reflect his actual level of knowledge


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## craigs (23 Oct 2020)

Tom K said:


> An interesting read can't decide what's sadder though? The fact that a chap with at least some redeeming qualities was in a mental state some years ago (the tats don't appear very fresh) to firstly tattoo his face and even worse with neo-nazi symbols or the fact that there are those would never forgive him for his troubled past?


There is no forgiveness, there is only cancel and doxxing, do not think outside of the collective or you are a homophobic. racist, nazi, transphobic, bigoted misogynist......did i miss anything? ugh now i'm offended for the people that doesnt know this show even existed.


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## transatlantic (23 Oct 2020)

Well I just watched the first episode and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think Lee Mack is great.

As for the tattoos ... I didn't notice it as I didn't know about the symbols off hand. However, ... I do find it odd that such a large production company wouldn't have noticed it.

Personally, I couldn't care less if someone has facial tattoos, and anyone that does really needs to get out more. But the symbols, ...yeah .. not the best thing to show on family television.


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## TheUnicorn (23 Oct 2020)

Tom K said:


> An interesting read can't decide what's sadder though? The fact that a chap with at least some redeeming qualities was in a mental state some years ago (the tats don't appear very fresh) to firstly tattoo his face and even worse with neo-nazi symbols or the fact that there are those would never forgive him for his troubled past?


that assumes it is in his past, there is no sign that he has attempted to cover or remove them at all


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## Andy Kev. (23 Oct 2020)

TheUnicorn said:


> that assumes it is in his past, there is no sign that he has attempted to cover or remove them at all


Out of interest, if you tried to have tattoos removed from your face, wouldn't you end up looking like you'd been in a car crash?


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## Ttrees (23 Oct 2020)

Have a look on youtube for gang related tattoo removals on the American documentary channel Vice.


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## Andy Kev. (23 Oct 2020)

Ttrees said:


> Have a look on youtube for gang related tattoo removals on the American documentary channel Vice.


Thanks for the tip. I didn't realise that it could be done non-invasively. I suspect that will be a boom industry about a decade from now.


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## TheUnicorn (23 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> Out of interest, if you tried to have tattoos removed from your face, wouldn't you end up looking like you'd been in a car crash?


I have to admit to having no knowledge of tattoo removal, I kind of assumed it was possible.


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## thetyreman (23 Oct 2020)

I don't think he should have to remove the tattoo's, you should watch some documentaries on american high security (category A) prisons if you genuinely think this guy is a white supremacist, you've seen nothing.


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## artie (23 Oct 2020)

If you're a white supremacist, wouldn't it be better to have pure white skin rather than covered in ink?


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## craigs (23 Oct 2020)

A buddy of mine went through having a tattoo removed from his shoulder, it's something like 8 sessions and not only does it hurt like hell, it looks like a mess when done.


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## Chris70 (24 Oct 2020)

RogerS said:


> Not really. Given the fast editing these days, I suspect that most of the camera angles will be on what he's actually doing with his hands. SIATC. IMO.


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## R1chard (24 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> FWIW I've read a fair bit about Naziism in an attempt to understand how such a political movement could emerge, thrive and nearly come out on top and surprisingly it is very difficult to come up with a brief summary of what defines how monstrous it was. To brand it a "hate group" won't do, if you're talking about the original Nazis. As you get nearer to an understanding of the historical truth, it becomes clear that it was far more complex and far more disturbing than that. But that said, it's clear that your comment refers to a grouping in modern Britain and when dealing with the ill-educated, rather moronic people involved, it's an unsuitable tag which nonetheless serves a purpose.
> 
> I tend to think that wearing a couple of pro-Nazi tattoos (cryptic or clear) is more an indicator of inarticulate cluelessness than anything else. I doubt very much if the average "Nazi" in the UK would be able to tell you anything about what Hitler stood for or the horrors which his regime involved. I suspect that for them Hitler is little more than a convenient symbol or brand which carries the added attraction (for them) that any hint of support for him and his movement is regarded as being very naughty indeed and we all know that a lot of young, agressive men love being thought of as bad boys.
> 
> ...




WOW. That is about the most comprehensive and reasoned response I have read.. profound respect!


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## Mead Camans (24 Oct 2020)

Just watched it on YT and I can say I was pleasantly surprised! Funnily enough I recognised Emma. She did a few weeks helping out at my old work and was evidently a very skilled and driven individual. I was impressed that most of the contestants got through pretty ambitious projects in such tight time frames as well. I won't pass judgement on Darren because others have summed up the important points better than I could. Leaving that aside, I'm actually now a bit disappointed that we won't get to see more! It certainly wasn't as cringe-inducing as other reality woodworking programmes I've seen. Ah well.


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## Andy Kev. (25 Oct 2020)

R1chard said:


> WOW. That is about the most comprehensive and reasoned response I have read.. profound respect!


That's very kind of you.

Mind you, my half lap dovetails still have a tendency to be gappy which puts me back in my place.


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## Trevanion (30 Oct 2020)

They’ve officially cancelled it now as the tattoos “could be linked to far right ideology”

The Chop: Sky cancels TV carpentry show over contestant's tattoos


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## Mead Camans (30 Oct 2020)

Ah jeez. Could they not just have blurred out the offending tattoos? If one of the contestants was a staunch nudist, they'd have done it then.


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## Alpha-Dave (30 Oct 2020)

I’m not surprised how this played out; as a business (Sky TV) that relies on advertising revenue, then they can’t even slightly be associated with ‘bad things’ that would cause the advertisers to pull their funding. 

What I am surprised at is that none of the producers, writers, casting crew etc. Picked up on this, or if they did then they decided that it was worth the risk? If so, then that’s completely on them. 

From the episode that I watched, Darren came across as ok, if a little misogynistic (saying women often need a push to get thing done). I wonder if he’s not a far-right, white supremacist, but just not very bright (culturally aware), and chose those tattoos because they were cool and ‘edgy’ rather than his actual life philosophy. I expect more ‘news’ on this, particularly his regret and reformation. The tabloids would eat that up.


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## Essex Barn Workshop (30 Oct 2020)

Now totally cancelled:








The Chop: Sky TV carpentry show cancelled over contestant's tattoos


An investigation into a contestant's tattoos says they "could be connected to far-right ideologies".



www.bbc.co.uk




Sky will not be showing any more of the series.


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## billw (30 Oct 2020)

Wonder if they'll shoot another series?


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## Alpha-Dave (30 Oct 2020)

billw said:


> Wonder if they'll shoot another series?


And if they do, will any of the original group come back. Would that give them an unfair advantage?


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## bjm (30 Oct 2020)

billw said:


> Wonder if they'll shoot another series?


Can you imagine the screening process they'll put potential contestants through now - 'Yes, yes, that's a lovely tatoo of a rose but my great, great,,,,,,,,,,,,,,grandfather was a Plantagenet and we've been caught out once already, NEXT....'


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## AJB Temple (30 Oct 2020)

This is not so fanciful ^^. We can have all kinds of stuff in our history and be unaware. Who knows what the next woke trend will be? I used to think the French were a bit rude, overly fond of female body hair in the armpit region and a tad garlic fragrant. Then some enthusiast relation started researching our history a bit deeper than hitherto and discovered I am descended from Normans and the family eventually landed in Ireland in or around 1066 when we had a bit of trouble over here. Thus I now have an identity crisis of Viking/French/Irish before finally becoming English. This has all kinds of historical risks attached. Luckily I have no tattoos. And I am now a Francophile obviously.


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## bjm (30 Oct 2020)

I feel sorry for the youth of today who grew up with 'online'. Everything they have ever had an opinion on will have been recorded and will always be there for someone to dredge up later in life. Never allowed to grow up and develop!


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## TJC (30 Oct 2020)

Mead Camans said:


> If one of the contestants was a staunch nudist, they'd have done it then.



I'd love to see the risk assessment for that....


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## Trevanion (30 Oct 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> I used to think the French were a bit rude, overly fond of female body hair in the armpit region and a tad garlic fragrant.



Hmm, going by that perhaps I’m closer to being French than I originally thought 

It’s an interesting topic though, should we be held accountable for previous opinions (perhaps not actions) even though they may be a totally reformed character? Having known very staunch racists and homophobes in the past who have totally changed and shed their hate I don’t think it’s totally impossible but if you got it plastered all over your face it’s a bit harder to hide from your past.


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## Blackswanwood (30 Oct 2020)

I am left wondering if this is the programme Felder/Hammer had supplied machines for. There was no sign of them in the first episode so hopefully not and there is another woodworking offering in the wings.


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## AJB Temple (30 Oct 2020)

Blackswanwood said:


> I am left wondering if this is the programme Felder/Hammer had supplied machines for. There was no sign of them in the first episode so hopefully not and there is another woodworking offering in the wings.


Bet you a pound it was this show


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## sploo (30 Oct 2020)

bjm said:


> What if he was the winner?


Yea he did; it was a lovely scene - he must have spotted someone he knew in the crowd as he raised one hand up to give them a wave.

Ahem. I'll get my coat.


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## AJB Temple (30 Oct 2020)

Felder Hammer in the background behind spiderman.


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## Blackswanwood (30 Oct 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Bet you a pound it was this show


I pick my machine up from them in a couple of weeks so will ask!


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## Trevanion (30 Oct 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Felder Hammer in the background behind spiderman.
> 
> View attachment 95432


 
I thought they were Axminster Trade machines?


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Oct 2020)

Mead Camans said:


> Ah jeez. Could they not just have blurred out the offending tattoos? If one of the contestants was a staunch nudist, they'd have done it then.


It'd depend on whether his push stick was tattooed.


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## Blackswanwood (30 Oct 2020)

Trevanion said:


> I thought they were Axminster Trade machines?


That's what I thought ... living in Yorkshire I can assure you I won't be relinquishing my quid to Adrian too quickly!


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## TJC (30 Oct 2020)

Trevanion said:


> It’s an interesting topic though, should we be held accountable for previous opinions (perhaps not actions) even though they may be a totally reformed character? Having known very staunch racists and homophobes in the past who have totally changed and shed their hate I don’t think it’s totally impossible but if you got it plastered all over your face it’s a bit harder to hide from your past.



On a slightly more serious note, I know a couple of tattoo artists, and I know that a lot of them offer to do cover up work on any hate/gang/offensive tattoos for free - it's obviously beneficial to them to get this stuff out of the public eye, but also they see it as a service worth providing.

The guy on this program may not have many options for new designs, but I know he could have had them covered or altered if he so decided. That's why I think it's more likely he was playing nice for the camera than is reformed and full of remorse. Anyway, we'll never know.


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## Andy Kev. (30 Oct 2020)

Trevanion said:


> Hmm, going by that perhaps I’m closer to being French than I originally thought
> 
> It’s an interesting topic though, should we be held accountable for previous opinions (perhaps not actions) even though they may be a totally reformed character? Having known very staunch racists and homophobes in the past who have totally changed and shed their hate I don’t think it’s totally impossible but if you got it plastered all over your face it’s a bit harder to hide from your past.


That is a very good point. According to two American friends of mine (one a confirmed Republican, the other a confirmed Democrat) the reason that a country the size of the USA cannot produce a half decent candidate for President is that most people are not prepared to have their past lives combed through second by second to see if they ever said, did or wrote anything indiscreet or currently unfashionable.

Most of us become wiser as we go through life and that used to be generally accepted. It was understood that in your youth you would do daft and unadvisable things. 

There is a weird puritanism abroad at the moment and it seems to draw fanatics who have nothing better to do than live their sorry little lives out in the internet (hence my mildly controversial "saddos" comment earlier). FWIW I'm not too bothered about what somebody _was_ - unless they committed heinous crimes - and am far more bothered about what they are now.

The root problem IMO is that in the form of the internet, we have unleashed a very powerful thing and we have not yet as a society allocated it its proper place. Thus we find ourselves tolerating frequent witch hunts, something which we were generally glad to have seen the back of, until recently at least. This seems to me to not represent progress.


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## Andy Kev. (30 Oct 2020)

TJC said:


> The guy on this program may not have many options for new designs, but I know he could have had them covered or altered if he so decided. That's why I think it's more likely he was playing nice for the camera than is reformed and full of remorse. Anyway, we'll never know.



Isn't that the point? None of us actually know if he was "playing nice" or if he is a genuinely decent bloke. He's been hung, drawn and quartered by a virtual mob which is accountable to no-one. 

That is not a desirable state of affairs.


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## sploo (30 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> Most of us become wiser as we go through life and that used to be generally accepted. It was understood that in your youth you would do daft and unadvisable things.


It's a good point. I remember a few years back when one of the UK police forces tried to "get down with the kids" by employing a young lady (who had an online presence) as a youth ambassador for the cops. It then turned out she'd made questionably homophobic and racist comments (online) some years prior, as a teenager.

Amongst all the furore that led to her being dropped I read a really good opinion piece (in The Independent if I recall correctly) from a journalist who was grateful that the Internet and social media didn't exist when he was younger; given all the really dumb things we say as youths.

Now that said - in the case of Mr Tattoo... he clearly lied about the meaning of the 88; so he must have known it had a less than pleasant significance. In terms of benefit of the doubt, how would any of us feel if a major TV channel broadcast a program including someone with ink that effectively said "I'd like to exterminate you and all like you". I guess we'd probably not be too happy.


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## TJC (30 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> Isn't that the point? None of us actually know if he was "playing nice" or if he is a genuinely decent bloke. He's been hung, drawn and quartered by a virtual mob which is accountable to no-one.
> 
> That is not a desirable state of affairs.



It's a part of the point, but this isn't an offhand tweet, or an ill advised comment in the pub after a few drinks. To have the strength of feeling to commit to the social messaging of having that statement tattooed on your face is concerning. I think it's fair to say it should be removed or altered before I'm prepared to give the benefit of the doubt. Even a cross over the top would show willing.


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## billw (30 Oct 2020)

I hope nobody thinks all tattoos are symbolic, but then again so far nobody's accused me of satanism, vampirism, or witchcraft so I'm good.


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## Ttrees (30 Oct 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Felder Hammer in the background behind spiderman.



Not sure who spiderman is, the cameraman?
Take it in the background, you may be referring to Feder/Himmler,
I can see no Felder or Hammer stuff, as all I can see is Axi behind the Nazi 

Sorry, suppose I'll get me coat aswell


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## Garno (30 Oct 2020)

Food for thought here, he may be a member on here.


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## Ttrees (30 Oct 2020)

I think we all deserve another round of light entertainment.


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## DBT85 (30 Oct 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> Isn't that the point? None of us actually know if he was "playing nice" or if he is a genuinely decent bloke. He's been hung, drawn and quartered by a virtual mob which is accountable to no-one.
> 
> That is not a desirable state of affairs.


No he hasn't, he's been removed from a TV show because his body is covered in Nazi hate symbols. The poor lamb.


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## Peri (30 Oct 2020)

> If one of the contestants was a staunch nudist, they'd have done it then.



Careful with that axe Eugene


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## Mead Camans (30 Oct 2020)

All this being said and done, if it were me who'd won the whole thing, I'd be pretty cheesed off that I now (assumedly) won't get my exhibition in the William Morris Gallery. I didn't mishear that in the show did I? That was the grand prize or part of it?


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## DBT85 (30 Oct 2020)

Mead Camans said:


> All this being said and done, if it were me who'd won the whole thing, I'd be pretty cheesed off that I now (assumedly) won't get my exhibition in the William Morris Gallery. I didn't mishear that in the show did I? That was the grand prize or part of it?


I don't see why that wouldn't still happen assuming the winner wasn't the bloke in question.


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## Trevanion (30 Oct 2020)

DBT85 said:


> I don't see why that wouldn't still happen assuming the winner wasn't the bloke in question.



"And here's the exhibition piece by the bloke that won that TV show..."


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## sploo (30 Oct 2020)

Trevanion said:


> "And here's the exhibition piece by the bloke that won that TV show..."


I did Nazi that joke coming.


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## J-G (30 Oct 2020)

Trevanion said:


> "And here's the exhibition piece by the bloke that won that TV show..."


I'm not sure if this is a correct statement or just an attempt at humour, but that table ISN'T a Nazi swastika symbol, it's a Left-Facing version often now referred to as a sauwastika which is a symbol of divinity & spirituality in Indian Religions.


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## Mead Camans (30 Oct 2020)

DBT85 said:


> I don't see why that wouldn't still happen assuming the winner wasn't the bloke in question.


Faire point, although I know that TV contest contacts often have pretty insane T's&C's, so Sky may very well use this as an excuse to cut their losses and not have to shell out for an exhibition.


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## Trevanion (30 Oct 2020)

J-G said:


> I'm not sure if this is a correct statement or just an attempt at humour, but that table ISN'T a Nazi swastika symbol, it's a Left-Facing version often now referred to as a sauwastika which is a symbol of divinity & spirituality in Indian Religions.



Just a joke, although I didn't know that, quite interesting.

I've got a small veneered box with some parquetry/marquetry somewhere which I inherited from a family member which has some Swastikas on it amongst some other symbols, although I think it may pre-date the National Socialist Party that they became synonymous with. I don't really know anything about it and I've only kept it because it looked interesting, I wonder whether the ones on the box are left-facing. I'll see if I can find it.


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## doctor Bob (30 Oct 2020)

Trevanion said:


> I've got a small veneered box with some parquetry/marquetry somewhere which I inherited from a family member which has some Swastikas on it amongst some other symbols,



Is you last name Goring, Goebbels, Mengele .......................


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## Trevanion (30 Oct 2020)

doctor Bob said:


> Is you last name Goring, Goebbels, Mengele .......................



Nei- No no no, I'm just a humble Argentinian resident! My surname is Mitler...


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Oct 2020)

I remember a Flemish lady in Portugal in the '70s, she was a highly decorated war hero. Joking one day I said something was evil - she looked at me for a moment and said you don't know evil is. I have met evil ........... I met Mengele. Killed that conversation stone dead.


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## Trevanion (30 Oct 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I remember a Flemish lady in Portugal in the '70s, she was a highly decorated war hero. Joking one day I said something was evil - she looked at me for a moment and said you don't know evil is. I have met evil ........... I met Mengele. Killed that conversation stone dead.



Interesting, was she a Partisan?


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## Trainee neophyte (31 Oct 2020)

I have a 1920s edition of Kipling's Jungle Book, which has a very prominent swastika on the cover. Although being Rudyard Kipling, it will probably have been declared racist and needs burning urgently.

Here's a photo of someone else's copy, brazenly stolen from the internet:






I seem to remember hearing that young Adolf was enamoured of the swastikas on his local church that he walked past on the way to school, which is why he used them later. That one is from my fuzzy memory, and may be apocryphal.


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## DBT85 (31 Oct 2020)

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/facts_swastik.htm


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## john1215 (31 Oct 2020)

Great show and I was enjoying it, to be fair I didn't give a second to his tatoos or his remarks. The low point for me was the need to have a comedian(name escapes me) making stupid wise cracks. The show didn't need him


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## Just4Fun (31 Oct 2020)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I have a 1920s edition of Kipling's Jungle Book, which has a very prominent swastika on the cover.


Oh, that's interesting. I have some old Kipling books that were my father's. I had never noticed a swastika on them, so I just went and checked. My 1925 copy of Captain Courageous and my 1917 copy of Barrack Room Ballads both have a swastika on the cover and I had never noticed, or at least not remembered. Perhaps I am just not very observant. Other titles do not have a swastika, at least not in the editions I have.


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## Setch (31 Oct 2020)

I used to go to a holiday home in Wales, which was an old farmhouse on a working farm. The chest of drawers/dressing table in my bedroom had swastikas (or more precisely, reverse Swastikas) carved into the section below the mirror.

I remember looking up the likely provenance of these, and funding they were a quite widely used decoration before becoming associated with Nazism. Looked at without the unpleasant historical baggage they are an attractive, yet relatively simple decorative form, so it's unsurprising they are found all over the place.


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## Trevanion (31 Oct 2020)

J-G said:


> I'm not sure if this is a correct statement or just an attempt at humour, but that table ISN'T a Nazi swastika symbol, it's a Left-Facing version often now referred to as a sauwastika which is a symbol of divinity & spirituality in Indian Religions.



Dug up the box, turns out there's both left and right facing swastikas!






More photos on this thread: My Strange Box


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## Andy Kev. (31 Oct 2020)

The swastika is an ancient symbol, mostly associated with India and Buddhism. As far as I am aware the Nazis adopted it principally as a snappy logo.


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## sploo (31 Oct 2020)

Trevanion said:


> Nei- No no no, I'm just a humble Argentinian resident! My surname is Mitler...


Remember: never ask a woman her age, a man his salary... and a German why his grandpa is from Argentina.


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## DBT85 (31 Oct 2020)

john1215 said:


> Great show and I was enjoying it, to be fair I didn't give a second to his tatoos or his remarks. The low point for me was the need to have a comedian(name escapes me) making stupid wise cracks. The show didn't need him


It would have been following int he format of bake off which has similar and is mildly popular. They get to be the regular joe that can't dream of doing that kind of work.


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## Gant (1 Nov 2020)

The swastika goes back a long way in Europe, not just India. On Ilkley Moor there is a carved stone from the late Neolithic / early Bronze age (~2000BC) bearing a swastika. 


https://www.wyjs.org.uk/media/1359/swastika-stone.pdf


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## Doug B (1 Nov 2020)

Racers said:


> I'm still waiting for my cake!
> 
> Pete


Sorry Pete  3 weeks to the day I contacted Covid, I doubt very much you’d have wanted to eat anything I’d baked in the last 21 days  not that I could have☠


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## Shaggy (1 Nov 2020)

I thought the 88 tattoo was for his love of larger ladies and bingo.


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## Racers (1 Nov 2020)

Doug B said:


> Sorry Pete  3 weeks to the day I contacted Covid, I doubt very much you’d have wanted to eat anything I’d baked in the last 21 days  not that I could have☠



No problem, make me one for the second episode...

Pete

Hope you are feeling better.


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## Droogs (1 Nov 2020)

Shaggy said:


> I thought the 88 tattoo was for his love of larger ladies and bingo.


careful - we had our knuckles wrapped for going down that path previously in this thread


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## Daniel2 (1 Nov 2020)

Droogs said:


> careful - we had our knuckles wrapped for going down that path previously in this thread


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