# Careful who you let teach you (table saws again)



## BucksDad (11 Jan 2022)

Bears Workshop - Ash standing lamp build || Part One of Three - YouTube

This guy offers woodworking lessons. I was potentially thinking of getting some but no longer.

Commercial workshop, no guarding on his table saw and the wrong type of push sticks... (timestamps 2:00 and 11:00)


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## Cabinetman (11 Jan 2022)

Yes, probably not the best advert and he’s going to lose the end of his thumb using his Planer the way he does at about 11 minutes 20. What really surprised me was how ham-fisted he was with a hand plane fairly early on in the vid, he had an action that was a result of always putting wood in the vice to plane it, he wasn’t getting any feedback.


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## BucksDad (11 Jan 2022)

Ah I didn't notice him using his planer guard incorrectly. Good spot. 

Planing with a very expensive Bridge City Tools plane as well!


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## Doug71 (11 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Yes, probably not the best advert and he’s going to lose the end of his thumb using his Planer the way he does at about 11 minutes 20. What really surprised me was how ham-fisted he was with a hand plane fairly early on in the vid.



Lol, I was just linking the video at the right time as an example of how not to use a planer, he does look awkward using it and pushing the stock with the thumb dangling down the back is a definite no.

I don't think I will start the debate on wearing rings in a workshop 

Should start at the right point for how not to use a planer.


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## doctor Bob (11 Jan 2022)

Doug71 said:


> I don't think I will start the debate on wearing rings in a workshop



Took mine off years ago, decided after a few close calls, my finger was more important than an upset wife for a few days. Not seen the wedding ring for years......... it'll turn up one day.


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## Daniel2 (11 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Took mine off years ago, decided after a few close calls, my finger was more important than an upset wife for a few days. Not seen the wedding ring for years......... it'll turn up one day.



My wife responded to this action by removing hers as well.


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## artie (11 Jan 2022)

Not long after I was married, I jumped down from a lorry and found myself hanging by my wedding ring.

Luckily my toes were just touching the ground, so apart from a little bruising I was ok. I took it off as soon as the swelling went down, Her indoors was not happy but I like my fingers.

The one thing that gets me about these videos is the wasted time.

We are all very busy and there's more info available than could be absorbed in 10 lifetimes.

I watched one the other day where a guy sat and faffed around for almost 2 mins before he got started. Would it have improved the vid had he edited that out? I think so.

Do we need to watch a table saw blade turning for x seconds while the star fetches a piece of wood?

Do we need to see him cut 36 pieces exactly the same, etc, etc.

My attention span is getting so short I find myself moving on unless it's something that I have deliberately sought out.


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## Spectric (11 Jan 2022)

Having worked in electrical for many years I am well and truly in the habit of not wearing anything like rings or watches.



artie said:


> Do we need to watch a table saw blade turning for x seconds while the star fetches a piece of wood?


That is why I find so many videos hard to watch, some are so silly and show you the machine being turned on and then a big pause, many use fifty words to say something that could have been said in far fewer and others just promotional but I find you need to look around the person and see what else is of interest in the background and then research anything of interest.


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## Cabinetman (11 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> Not long after I was married, I jumped down from a lorry and found myself hanging by my wedding ring.
> 
> Luckily my toes were just touching the ground, so apart from a little bruising I was ok. I took it off as soon as the swelling went down, Her indoors was not happy but I like my fingers.
> 
> ...


 Yes absolutely right, at least this guy shut up! In fact I don’t think he said much at all, a lot of them particularly Americans just waffle on and on and on.


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## Grantx (11 Jan 2022)

All videos are watched at the maximum 2x speed until it gets to the good part. Also the double tap which skips ahead 10 seconds is useful. 4 quick taps in succession is a nice 40 second jump. 

Can't really watch anything at single speed anymore. Takes too long.


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## artie (11 Jan 2022)

Grantx said:


> All videos are watched at the maximum 2x speed until it gets to the good part. Also the double tap which skips ahead 10 seconds is useful. 4 quick taps in succession is a nice 40 second jump.


Learning every day.


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## paulrbarnard (11 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> Not long after I was married, I jumped down from a lorry and found myself hanging by my wedding ring.
> 
> Luckily my toes were just touching the ground, so apart from a little bruising I was ok. I took it off as soon as the swelling went down, Her indoors was not happy but I like my fingers.
> 
> ...


I’m the same. So much waffle and needless preamble. I’ve taken to hitting don’t recommend channel if the promised content has not arrived in the first 30 seconds. As you say there is more information available than you could watch in a lifetime.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jan 2022)

I cut the back of my wedding rings and filed the ends round and smooth. I have lost a couple catching them on things, but I still have the finger.


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## Jameshow (11 Jan 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I cut the back of my wedding rings and filed the ends round and smooth. I have lost a couple catching them on things, but I still have the finger.


Mine fell off while on "honeymoon" in Nepal should never have replaced it....!


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## LJM (11 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Yes absolutely right, at least this guy shut up! In fact I don’t think he said much at all, a lot of them particularly Americans just waffle on and on and on.



Absolutely! He let his work do the talking; the elegant beauty of human toil, symphonies of man, master of his craft, master of the tools and so the material, the sound track…


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## Daniel2 (11 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> Not long after I was married, I jumped down from a lorry and found myself hanging by my wedding ring.
> 
> Luckily my toes were just touching the ground, so apart from a little bruising I was ok. I took it off as soon as the swelling went down, Her indoors was not happy but I like my fingers.
> 
> ...



I agree with you Artie.
This is what sorts the wheat from the chaff, in terms of video watchability.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> Not long after I was married, I jumped down from a lorry and found myself hanging by my wedding ring.
> Luckily my toes were just touching the ground, so apart from a little bruising I was ok. I took it off as soon as the swelling went down, Her indoors was not happy but I like my fingers.


At 19 I worked with a crane driver who when working as a banksman for another driver held a bundle of steel while signalling the driver to wind it up quickly as it was in danger of swinging into something. The bundles used to be tied with binding wire that was probably three or four mm diameter. As the driver wound the load up the end of a tie lifted my mate skywards by the wedding ring, ripping his finger out at the joint. That's why I never wore a ring that wasn't split.


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## D_W (11 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Yes absolutely right, at least this guy shut up! In fact I don’t think he said much at all, a lot of them particularly Americans just waffle on and on and on.



There must be an emoji of a guy waving as there are hundreds of them, but i can't find it.


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## D_W (11 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Took mine off years ago, decided after a few close calls, my finger was more important than an upset wife for a few days. Not seen the wedding ring for years......... it'll turn up one day.



A couple of guys I used to work with seemed to think that if they went to the bar, there was something there that would catch their ring and take their fingers off, too. 

(I still wear one, but not many power tools and not much work inside of cars where I could touch something live)


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## D_W (11 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Yes, probably not the best advert and he’s going to lose the end of his thumb using his Planer the way he does at about 11 minutes 20. What really surprised me was how ham-fisted he was with a hand plane fairly early on in the vid, he had an action that was a result of always putting wood in the vice to plane it, he wasn’t getting any feedback.



He does have one of those Beetlejuice skeleton planes, though. But the action through the wood was pretty harsh. We could all talk about how he's a bit deliberate and inefficient, but he may be good at finding customers who don't care, and having never seen him before, we'll see what he makes of the wood.


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## D_W (11 Jan 2022)

Separately - this guy doesn't look like he curated the video to show him zipping a few pieces through machinery and looking like a guy who did it 1000 times either. But, I'll bet a lot of the guys making videos like that have set up each little bit and vainly taken out every single thing they do that doesn't make them look like Babe Ruth of the woodworking world. 

Props to the guy for putting it up. What we're anticipating is more important than any of it (supposing he doesn't get hurt). What will he make, is it well made and does it please the eyes and function......

....from another guy (with far different ultimate goals, though) who just posts working without taking out anything.


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## doctor Bob (11 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> (I still wear one, but not many power tools and not much work inside of cars where I could touch something live)



For me it was hooking it on things and feeling the finger was going to be ripped off.


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## mr rusty (11 Jan 2022)

Way before I was married back in the 70's when I was in the merchant navy, was warned of the dangers of rings and handling steel wire rope. When I married I never bothered with a ring for this reason - people do ask me about it sometimes. If you need to know why, google finger degloving injuries, but only if you have a strong stomach.


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## D_W (11 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> For me it was hooking it on things and feeling the finger was going to be ripped off.



That's my thought, and I won't make a definitive statement about no such thing existing here. Because I do still have grinders and a drill press, and a hang on the wall saw. 

I have met someone who claims to have been lit up by a watch or ring on a car battery or wiring (long ago enough that I don't remember which, but being a big chicken, if I'm doing something under a hood, I take metal things off of my hands and wrists.


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## johnnyb (11 Jan 2022)

another reason not to wear a ring aapparentlyits better surgery wise to cut your finger off than rip it off.


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## JobandKnock (11 Jan 2022)

And he offers wood machinery training, you say? 

Think I'd need some heavy duty underwear


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## baldkev (11 Jan 2022)

The video has gone..... removed by uploader. I missed it!


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## Cabinetman (12 Jan 2022)

baldkev said:


> The video has gone..... removed by uploader. I missed it!


I’m sorry to hear that, apart from a couple of health and safety issues I’m sure he does a good job promoting our hobby and getting people proficient in it. I suppose the problem is that as soon as you put a video up, (or even photos on here (as I found out trying to show anybody how to do something) you do get judged. I actually do wish him all the best for the future. He’s still young and learning himself, but he really should go on a machine training course before he injures himself. Ian


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> ... apart from a couple of health and safety issues...


 I must belong to the Nanny State, then, because I counted more than a few lapses - I gave up at 12 and that wasn't the end of the video. But I'm also a site First Aider, so I've dealt with the results of ignorance, corner-cutting and gung-ho behaviour far too many times to be blase about safety


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## Cabinetman (12 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> I must belong to the Nanny State, then, because I counted more than a few lapses - in fact I gave up at 12 and that wasn't the end of the video.


I’m sure you’re right, and as I said he needs to go on a course, but give him a chance he’s young and he is trying to help get people started.
Ps Victor Meldrew never belonged to the nanny state! - " don’t get me started "


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

I don't believe it!


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## LJM (12 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> I’m sorry to hear that, apart from a couple of health and safety issues I’m sure he does a good job promoting our hobby and getting people proficient in it. I suppose the problem is that as soon as you put a video up, (or even photos on here (as I found out trying to show anybody how to do something) you do get judged. I actually do wish him all the best for the future. He’s still young and learning himself, but he really should go on a machine training course before he injures himself. Ian



The problem is that when someone states

“We are small independently owned fine furniture shop in Hertfordshire. Our main goal is to design and create beautifully functional pieces that will last a life time. We want to show people that there is beauty in the simplicity of furniture.” Www.bearsworkshop.co.uk

it does tend to invite judgment of your output, be that your furniture or videos.


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## Keith 66 (12 Jan 2022)

I very rarely watch woodworking videos with the exception of Rebuilding Tally ho! As a D&T technician i had to do 5 yearly Design & technology assoc training courses on all machines we had in the workshop, Circ saw, Bandsaw, planer thicknesser, bench drill, grinder, heat processes, wood lathe, metal lathe, milling machine, mortiser then possibly welding as well. 
When i started in 96 metal lathe alone was a two day course. Just before i retired all of this lot including hand power tools was skimmed over in just two days & consisted of everyone standing round each machine & ticking a box to show you had heard the trainer say "this is the on off switch, this is the emergency stop, this bit with teeth can chop off your fingers" etc. There was no time for any skills training or practice. What this meant was that guys like me who had spent years in woodworking or engineering trades were fine but newbies got a bit of paper to say they were competent. This meant very often they were completely out of their depth often dangerously so. But they gots a bit of paper so someones ass is covered!


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## Adam W. (12 Jan 2022)

baldkev said:


> The video has gone..... removed by uploader. I missed it!


I'm wondering if he's been on a visit to this parish and seen all the encouraging responses to his video. At least he put his plane on the bench the right way up.


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> This meant very often they were completely out of their depth often dangerously so. But they gots a bit of paper so someones ass is covered!


Sounds a lot like the guys we get coming to us these days. "Do you know how to use xxxxx?", "Yes" - then half an hour later you find them doing something stupid like pulling a router towards themselves (i.e. climb cutting). Some days....


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## Doug71 (12 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> I’m sure you’re right, and as I said he needs to go on a course, but give him a chance he’s young and he is trying to help get people started.




He's charging £550 for a one day course, in that one day he claims he will teach you all about wood and it's characteristics, how to use hand tools (Japanese and Western), how to use machinery (including Table saw and Planer thicknesser) and you will make a table using what you have learnt! All in one day  

I think you would be as well watching a few random Youtube videos as that is where he has obviously learnt his craft.

Just had a quick look at the Peter Sefton Furniture School as a comparison, he charges £720 for a 5 day course, I know which one I would choose.


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## BucksDad (12 Jan 2022)

I think the reason he took it down is he's rebranding the name of his business - the video is now backup for anyone who wants to see it. Ash Standing Lamp || Part one - YouTube

This is now a slightly abridged version. Table saw with no guard still shown. Bad use of P/T removed.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jan 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> There was no time for any skills training or practice. What this meant was that guys like me who had spent years in woodworking or engineering trades were fine but newbies got a bit of paper to say they were competent. This meant very often they were completely out of their depth often dangerously so. But they gots a bit of paper so someones ass is covered!



An acquaintance, a brilliant lifelong builder was approached and offered a lecturing job at the local college. He said he couldn't as he didn't have any qualifications. The chap told him that didn't matter as they would ensure he got the teaching qualifications. He replied he wasn't talking about teaching qualifications, he was talking about building qualifications. What? None? No, he replied, none. You must have safety training tickets etc. surely? No, he said, I've never had a qualification in my life.

I had a change of job in the same place. One day a chap I worked with previously came and said he had a problem he couldn't trace, and could I help. I went and found the problem, and when I got back the person I was working with asked if had any qualifications to do my previous job. No, I said, apart from being very good at it, why do you ask? Oh, he said, I just wondered - I suspected you didn't have any qualifications and the chap whose problem you solved is an NVQ assessor.


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## mr rusty (12 Jan 2022)

@Phil Pascoe Not saying I am a brilliant lifelong builder, but that does sound a bit like me. The only "tickets" I have date back to my merchant navy career that ended in 1982. Since then "university of life" and "self-education" all the way. I'm glad I'm nearing the end of my working career though because it's becoming harder and harder without those bits of paper.


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

Doug71 said:


> He's charging £550 for a one day course, in that one day he claims he will teach you all about wood and it's characteristics, how to use hand tools (Japanese and Western), how to use machinery (including Table saw and Planer thicknesser) and you will make a table using what you have learnt! All in one day


So are you saying that when i was going to college to do wood machining they were diddling me?


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## D_W (12 Jan 2022)

Doug71 said:


> He's charging £550 for a one day course, in that one day he claims he will teach you all about wood and it's characteristics, how to use hand tools (Japanese and Western), how to use machinery (including Table saw and Planer thicknesser) and you will make a table using what you have learnt! All in one day
> 
> I think you would be as well watching a few random Youtube videos as that is where he has obviously learnt his craft.
> 
> Just had a quick look at the Peter Sefton Furniture School as a comparison, he charges £720 for a 5 day course, I know which one I would choose.



It might burst some bubbles, but other than learning to sharpen and then confirming that you have tools that are operable, everything is readable for free and most of the free information that's older is better than the newer paid information. Does anyone think paul sellers can give you better information about planing than older texts? 

Most of the folks attending classes get kind of stuck doing that when what they really need is time at the bench and some curiosity to get better. 

That's not aimed at Mr. Sefton, who I find to be quite pleasant, but rather the constant pop-up of folks who have a lack of success in making and finding clients and immediately turn around and look to social media and beginners. 

That said, for later on bits if someone wants to learn to make a specific type of chair or chest in a week and it's their vacation, by all means.


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> It might burst some bubbles, but other than learning to sharpen and then confirming that you have tools that are operable, everything is readable for free and most of the free information that's older is better than the newer paid information.


Maybe for hand tool work, but for wood machining there are far more terrible and downright dangerous examples on YouTube than there are good ones.

One of the difficulties with the Internet is sorting the wheat from the chaff - and there's way more chaff than there is wheat


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## dannyr (12 Jan 2022)

Friend of mine went to woodworking evening classes at college - well-respected teacher had lifetime's trade experience and all the papers plus teaching and safety quals and no wounds.

Was teaching them safe planer use, distracted, took off the top of his thumb. Recovered and the following year was asked how he lost the end of his thumb, in demonstrating how he did it again.

Don't know what that proves, but take care friends.


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

My missus would say that it's proof that men cannot multitask...


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## D_W (12 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> Maybe for hand tool work, but for wood machining there are far more terrible and downright dangerous examples on YouTube than there are good ones.



That's not the free material I'm referring to. I don't think youtube is a great place to learn to work wood. I'd bet if you have H&S in the US, you could call them and be directed to materials published for the safe and productive use of power tools. Social media is where the same folks who aren't making it actually woodworking end up - they get their early out of financial need, try to build an audience, and immediately sell as much "at them" as they can. 

Or ala sellers, sell some false narrative. Sellers went to teaching, and his accounts of his past work often include or exclude different things - what's missing is how much real work he did that was maker work, and not just craft show work (my mother did the craft show circuit for 40 years and made half a full time salary doing it part time - it's trinket selling more or less).

Someone mentioned yesterday that PS was a peace officer for a while:





A Response - Paul Sellers' Blog







paulsellers.com





So, I looked it up. What I didn't see much of was talk about being a police officer - it was full on sales pitch "if you're depressed, come to my classes, I'll teach you a way to be happier and then provide some escapist narrative" (that's my paraphrase of what he's providing). I think legitimate instruction probably can be had by rule without reading anything published after 1993 (which is chosen because it's the first time I ever saw someone download something off of the internet). 

The social media world of woodworking is personalities. It doesn't turn out capable workers as far as I can find - not that you can't become one, but you won't become one unless you get involved in something that will make you one (either self driven or something like barnsley or an apprenticeship), and then maybe you'll make a living doing something (as a maker) that isn't what you expect. 

That's how my mother ended up on the craft circuit - it paid when she found the fine work market too competitive and hit or miss.


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## LJM (12 Jan 2022)

Doug71 said:


> He's charging £550 for a one day course, in that one day he claims he will teach you all about wood and it's characteristics, how to use hand tools (Japanese and Western), how to use machinery (including Table saw and Planer thicknesser) and you will make a table using what you have learnt! All in one day
> 
> I think you would be as well watching a few random Youtube videos as that is where he has obviously learnt his craft.
> 
> Just had a quick look at the Peter Sefton Furniture School as a comparison, he charges £720 for a 5 day course, I know which one I would choose.



Yeah but he wears an artisanal leather apron!


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## Adam W. (12 Jan 2022)

mr rusty said:


> @Phil Pascoe Not saying I am a brilliant lifelong builder, but that does sound a bit like me. The only "tickets" I have date back to my merchant navy career that ended in 1982. Since then "university of life" and "self-education" all the way. I'm glad I'm nearing the end of my working career though because it's becoming harder and harder without those bits of paper.


I've got loads of qualifications and I still feel like a beginner.


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## Cabinetman (12 Jan 2022)

LJM said:


> Yeah but he wears an artisanal leather apron!


Oh damn, I forgot that, reserved for the seventh level in Hell definitely. Can’t imagine trying to actually work in one of those things.


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## D_W (12 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I've got loads of qualifications and I still feel like a beginner.



I'm sure you feel like you're far better at this whole thing than I am - I have mathematics qualifications.

But you and I are both beginners.

This is what a master looks like.



George Wilson, Luthier



You or I would not be able to carve the lute rose at the top of the page let alone design it, and he's "not a carver" (though he carves). He's able to do a half dozen things at the level that he makes musical instruments (including refurbishing machine tools and jewelry die making).

Youtube is an alternate reality. I am a hobbyist, even if i think I can make as good of chisels as are available commercially anywhere (I think that's true).

(I don't know that george has any paper credentials, either).


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## LJM (12 Jan 2022)

I don’t have a problem with Paul Seller, as others seem to. I don’t give a toss about his patter; from what I’ve seen, he does have skills and knowledge to impart, much of which is freely available. I do have a problem with those who are in effect demonstrating, when they’ve put themselves forward as expert, when they’re demonstrably lacking in knowledge and basic techniques... But just don’t get me started on the new wave of “artisans”! 



PS: yes, I know these guys are taking the p**s


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## Cabinetman (12 Jan 2022)

Loved that! And the circular saw Blades made out of wood on the back wall ha ha


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## TheTiddles (12 Jan 2022)

Seeing them load that in the back of a car reminds me of the time I got asked to do a customer carry-out at a garden centre for a 25l bag of compost, husband, wife, 3 teenage boys, not one of them could lift it out the trolley into their Mercedes


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## Adam W. (12 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> I'm sure you feel like you're far better at this whole thing than I am - I have mathematics qualifications.
> 
> But you and I are both beginners.
> 
> ...


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## Sporky McGuffin (12 Jan 2022)

LJM said:


> I don’t have a problem with Paul Seller, as others seem to.



He's fine, apart from the endless sepia-tinted anecdotes, the constant humble-bragging, the long-winded presentation of the bloody obvious as hard-won arcane knowledge, and the tedious dismissiveness of anything modern. 

Marginally less odious in text than in video.


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## artie (12 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> the long-winded presentation of the bloody obvious as hard-won arcane knowledge,


I don't know if there is a name for this. 

When I watch a tutorial video, I sit there thinking. Yes obviously, of course, anyone would know that.

But I wouldn't have put it together nearly as quickly without the video.


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## nosuchhounds (12 Jan 2022)

Ive followed this guy for a while. Shop full of Bridge City and Woodpeckers tools. 

I prefer the rebranded name though


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## Sporky McGuffin (12 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> I don't know if there is a name for this.
> 
> When I watch a tutorial video, I sit there thinking. Yes obviously, of course, anyone would know that.
> 
> But I wouldn't have put it together nearly as quickly without the video.


The one that springs to mine is how to hand-saw square. The answer is to look at the reflection of the workpiece in the saw blade, and make sure it looks like a continuation of the workpiece. Maybe include two photos - one right, one wrong. It doesn't need a tedious anecdote about some gruff old woodworker with an impenetrable dialect making it hard to learn. One sentence, two photos. Pass on the knowledge, not the history.

It certainly doesn't need a twenty minute video.


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## Alpha-Dave (12 Jan 2022)

LJM said:


> ... But just don’t get me started on the new wave of “artisans”!
> 
> 
> 
> PS: yes, I know these guys are taking the p**s




Excellent! Very close to reality.


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

All these years I've been living in an alternative reality....


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## Adam W. (12 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> The one that springs to mine is how to hand-saw square. The answer is to look at the reflection of the workpiece in the saw blade, and make sure it looks like a continuation of the workpiece. Maybe include two photos - one right, one wrong. It doesn't need a tedious anecdote about some gruff old woodworker with an impenetrable dialect making it hard to learn. One sentence, two photos. Pass on the knowledge, not the history.
> 
> It certainly doesn't need a twenty minute video.


It's like the how to plane wood twerps, who don't set the iron before they start to pretend that they know how to plane a bit of wood.


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## JobandKnock (12 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> That's not the free material I'm referring to. I don't think youtube is a great place to learn to work wood. I'd bet if you have H&S in the US, you could call them and be directed to materials published for the safe and productive use of power tools.


I naturally assumed as this was a thread primarily about wood machining, that we'd got back on topic. On the subject of the HSE (in the UK) they not only publish leaflets, but they also put them up on line - WIS16 is the one for table saws, but the relevant list for WW machinery is here. Some of these are burned in my brain I've had to repeat the stuff in them so often to the "sprogs"



D_W said:


> The social media world of woodworking is personalities. It doesn't turn out capable workers as far as I can find - not that you can't become one, but you won't become one unless you get involved in something that will make you one (either self driven or something like barnsley or an apprenticeship), and then maybe you'll make a living doing something (as a maker) that isn't what you expect.


I hope you are aware how depressing that sounds. Glad I'm at the other end of my working life TBH



D_W said:


> That's how my mother ended up on the craft circuit - it paid when she found the fine work market too competitive and hit or miss.


Surely that's how everyone ends up on the craft circuit


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## D_W (12 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> I hope you are aware how depressing that sounds. Glad I'm at the other end of my working life TBH
> 
> ....
> Surely that's how everyone ends up on the craft circuit



I guess it does sound depressing. Maybe things are different in the UK. There is at least one joiner here in my local area that does work on "regular peoples'" houses, though. It has to be kind of quick and bland based on what people will pay, but he's doing it for a living - especially when someone needs something built into a house where there's no drop in solution. 

I've known a few people who set up commercial shops to make furniture and cabinets. They ended up making things like bulky tables for restaurants for a while and then closing their businesses to install cabinets instead of making them. 

What's changed? I guess how much people want and how fast they can go find RTA stuff at Ikea. 

...

You're probably right about the craft circuit - people either end up there because they find they can sell what they're making, or they find they can't and they find out what sells at craft markets and then do it. That's how my mother ended up there. I don't know what she'd have made if she was allowed to indulge "getting better" at fine work. The reality is in a lot of cases here, the folks who have otherworldly talent develop it very quickly. The craft circuit was very profitable and I doubt my mother ever made less than the national average wage in her spare time work. The customer level is one where people are less critical and more happy - it turned out to be better than maybe she thought it would be when giving up on finer painting and pencil drawings.


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## Gary_S (13 Jan 2022)

The reason that there is a lot of preamble in some of these videos is to get the duration to the point where an advert drops. Then they monetise the effort that they put in making the video.

You all need to get over Paul Sellers. He is happy doing what he does. That shouldn't upset you it should make you glad because it adds to the world's happiness. 

Jack Hargreaves used to provide hours of anecdote while showing how to snare rabbits, tickle trout and all the rest. It is what makes the passing of knowledge on to others easy to listen to and remember.

They guy in the original video did not ask for your critique. Why bash his business?


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## BucksDad (13 Jan 2022)

I don't believe I bashed his business - I didn't attack him personally and think I was polite with it. I was only pointing out that someone with a business who was offering paid woodworking lessons (who I was considering purchasing them with) was demonstrating bad safety practices which contravene UK H&S regulations and highlighting this to others.


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## artie (13 Jan 2022)

Gary_S said:


> The reason that there is a lot of preamble in some of these videos is to get the duration to the point where an advert drops. Then they monetise the effort that they put in making the video.


Maybe.
But how much do they monetise when the goldfish move on.


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## Sgian Dubh (13 Jan 2022)

Gary_S said:


> They guy in the original video did not ask for your critique. Why bash his business?


I agree. He didn't specifically ask any one person to critique his video in which he demonstrates his woodworking techniques. On the other hand, he did put it out there, presumably in the hope that people would watch and be inspired to copy his methods, or at least learn something. In a sense, it's very similar to releasing a book, film, record album, having an art exhibition or opening a stage play and so on, all of which attract comment and criticism.

Therefore, if what he demonstrates is good, as judged by those that have some sort of standing in the field, that's positive. If he demonstrates dangerous, poor or less than optimally safe techniques (he does) and receives unfavourable criticism and reviews for his efforts, I'd say that's fair. Slainte.


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## LJM (13 Jan 2022)

Gary_S said:


> The reason that there is a lot of preamble in some of these videos is to get the duration to the point where an advert drops. Then they monetise the effort that they put in making the video.
> 
> You all need to get over Paul Sellers. He is happy doing what he does. That shouldn't upset you it should make you glad because it adds to the world's happiness.
> 
> ...



I agree! Paul Sellers is happy doing what he does, and why should that not be what wood working be about, for some people?

Fundamentally, he has sound knowledge to share. As for the waffle, try going on a taught course in any subject; by the time you get through the “housekeeping”, waiting for a straggler, coffee breaks etc, you’ll be in despair.

And as pointed out, there’s often a need for people to monetise somehow! If you don’t like someone’s style, to a point where it detracts from what you gain from their content, move on. But beware the constant regurgitation of questionable knowledge and techniques, by utube-taught “makers”, “homesteaders”, “crafters” etc


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## LJM (13 Jan 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I agree. He didn't specifically ask any one person to critique his video in which he demonstrates his woodworking techniques. On the other hand, he did put it out there, presumably in the hope that people would watch and be inspired to copy his methods, or at least learn something. In a sense, it's very similar to releasing a book, film, record album, having an art exhibition or opening a stage play and so on, all of which attract comment and criticism.
> 
> Therefore, if what he demonstrates is good, as judged by those that have some sort of standing in the field, that's positive. If he demonstrates dangerous, poor or less than optimally safe techniques (he does) and receives unfavourable criticism and reviews for his efforts, I'd say that's fair. Slainte.



Exactly. He’s a professional furniture maker, so comment or criticism is entirely legitimate.


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## Sporky McGuffin (13 Jan 2022)

Gary_S said:


> You all need to get over Paul Sellers. He is happy doing what he does. That shouldn't upset you it should make you glad because it adds to the world's happiness.



That's something of a mischaracterisation. I'm not upset by him, I don't for a moment begrudge him his happiness or success, and he's a better and more productive woodworker than I am. I just don't like the content he produces.

I think this thread was the first time I've made any such criticism and I don't plan on repeating myself.


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## Adam W. (13 Jan 2022)

That's a fair comment.


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## JDW (13 Jan 2022)

There was a guy who worked at my school who had been in the army. One day he jumped down from a tank but his wedding ring and ring finger decided they liked the view up there and stayed put. I have no idea but I guess soldiers are told they can wear a wedding ring but are advised not to?


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## Gary_S (13 Jan 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I agree. He didn't specifically ask any one person to critique his video in which he demonstrates his woodworking techniques. On the other hand, he did put it out there, presumably in the hope that people would watch and be inspired to copy his methods, or at least learn something. In a sense, it's very similar to releasing a book, film, record album, having an art exhibition or opening a stage play and so on, all of which attract comment and criticism.
> 
> Therefore, if what he demonstrates is good, *as judged by those that have some sort of standing *in the field, that's positive. If he demonstrates dangerous, poor or less than optimally safe techniques (he does) and receives unfavourable criticism and reviews for his efforts, I'd say that's fair. Slainte.




How many on here have demonstrated that standing?


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jan 2022)

LJM said:


> Exactly. He’s a professional furniture maker, so comment or criticism is entirely legitimate.


I would expand on that - He’s a professional furniture maker who professes to instruct others and presumes therefore that people will copy him, so comment or criticism is entirely legitimate. What people do do in their own 'shops is up to them.


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## oconaj (13 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> Sounds a lot like the guys we get coming to us these days. "Do you know how to use xxxxx?", "Yes" - then half an hour later you find them doing something stupid like pulling a router towards themselves (i.e. climb cutting). Some days....


Pulling a router toward you is not wrong if it is an internal cut.


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## JobandKnock (13 Jan 2022)

oconaj said:


> Pulling a router toward you is not wrong if it is an internal cut.


I was taught that you should _almost_ always push the router away from you - pull it towards you and have a slip and you risk getting a chest or groin full of spinning cutter, which really makes it a questionable approach. Even internal cuts are safest done pushing the router in front of and away from you. I think you may possibly be confusing the internal cuts anti-clockwise/external cuts clockwise "rule".

As it happens the guy I was thinking about when I wrote that was working the edges of a stack of boards to put a deep chamfer on them that the workshop had missed off, the way he held the router the material was to the left side of the router cutter, therefore pulling the tool towards him meant he was performing a climb cut. Had it gone wrong, had the router climbed out of the cut, had he overbalanced (a restaurant fit-out is a lot less tidy environment than most people are used to working in) he'd have possibly put a not so neat set of perforations up his front.


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## Sgian Dubh (13 Jan 2022)

Gary_S said:


> How many on here have demonstrated that standing?


I can't give you a number. But I can tell within very few posts if a new contributor here generally knows what they're talking about with something useful or helpful to pass on somewhere within this broad subject field to those who are seemingly (to me anyway) relatively inexperienced and want to learn.

As to where I think I might have developed enough standing, if that's the right term, to be able to make such a statement as that above, I'd put that down to massive and unwarranted self belief, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## jcassidy (13 Jan 2022)

I think Paul Sellers is great, mostly. His book sits on the 'display' shelf in the living room (along with 'Art and Architecture of Ireland Vol 1', 'Mestieri, arti e gente del mio paese', and the 'Anthology of American Folk Music'). 

Regardless of what one thinks of him, he doesn't demonstrate unsafe working practises, unless the requirements of filming dictate it, and when that happens he always points it out. e.g. using a chisel in an unsafe manner or whatever.

I think a lot of noses are put out of joint by some of this my-way-or-the-highway statements, some of which I agree with and some I don't. But you get those from experts in any field.

I loved the firewood video, showed it to the missus and she found it funny too. $1,200 for a log sounds about right....


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## BucksDad (14 Jan 2022)

Part two now out for anyone interested

Ash standing lamp build part Two. - YouTube


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## JobandKnock (14 Jan 2022)

And the saga continues....

Nice safe bandsaw usage (not!) and then back to the exposed blade on the circular saw (and as a lowly carpenter why is it that people insist on using sleds when a miter saw is safer?) At least he isn't climb cutting with the router. I often wondered why you needed a chisel plane when a bullnose plane or a chisel might do the job - I still do. Still, he has lots of nice tools. If he were a DIYer I wouldn't snipe as much, but he projects himself as a professional woodworker which sets the bar somewhat higher, I'd have thought. We have a saying for this in construction, _"all the gear and no idea"_


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## Doug71 (14 Jan 2022)

Why use a bandsaw like that, it takes about 2 seconds to drop the guard down


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## jcassidy (14 Jan 2022)

Well I thought we all might be a being a bit, you know, overly critical, so I made my wife watch the first part.

Her reaction was "Arg! He put his hand in the machine??!! (wince)" (2.15 in the first video...)

So even a civilian can spot the poor safety...phew, we're good, people!


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## Gary_S (14 Jan 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I can't give you a number. But I can tell within very few posts if a new contributor here generally knows what they're talking about with something useful or helpful to pass on somewhere within this broad subject field to those who are seemingly (to me anyway) relatively inexperienced and want to learn.
> 
> As to where I think I might have developed enough standing, if that's the right term, to be able to make such a statement as that above, I'd put that down to massive and unwarranted self belief, ha, ha. Slainte.


Slainte


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## Gary_S (14 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> And the saga continues....
> 
> Nice safe bandsaw usage (not!) and then back to the exposed blade on the circular saw (and as a lowly carpenter *why is it that people insist on using sleds when a miter saw is safer?)* At least he isn't climb cutting with the router. I often wondered why you needed a chisel plane when a bullnose plane or a chisel might do the job - I still do. Still, he has lots of nice tools. If he were a DIYer I wouldn't snipe as much, but he projects himself as a professional woodworker which sets the bar somewhat higher, I'd have thought. We have a saying for this in construction, _"all the gear and no idea"_


Width of the piece being cut. Mitre saw does not extend far enough. Some people don't have a mitre saw station or even a mitre saw. Radial Arm saws are considered the devil. There are many tools that do a similar job but generally we use the tools we have.


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## Cabinetman (14 Jan 2022)

Yes that bandsaw was just looking to take his thumb off, a moments inattention and it’s gone.
And then his actual woodworking isn’t that good either, he was sinking a square piece of ash into the round base so he drew round it with a sharp knife and then proceeded to put his chisel into the cut line, predictably this made the hole too big, always does if you don’t creep up to the line, would have been a much better idea to have formed a large square tenon on the end of the upright. You have to think of peoples viewpoint, looking down at that joint from a height any gap is much less noticeable with a shoulder. And again he planes his wood in the vice, his planing action just isn’t good, he’s just not getting any feedback from the wood which would help train him how to hold his plane. Ian


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## Doug71 (14 Jan 2022)

And the irony is because of us his videos are getting more views than ever so he's probably thinking people are loving what he is doing?

No such thing as bad publicity


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## doctor Bob (14 Jan 2022)

Gary_S said:


> How many on here have demonstrated that standing?



5, maybe 4, I don't like 2 of those and the other one is a bit of a ...... so 1 and he may have died


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## BucksDad (14 Jan 2022)

Who's the 1 who may have died? (sad news)


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## doctor Bob (14 Jan 2022)

BucksDad said:


> Who's the 1 who may have died? (sad news)


Sorry I was being a bitFacetious, just trying to show that who knows who has standing. In all honesty there are some very good people on here who can do it and do it safely. 
I think Richard has a high reputation and is qualified to comment as he has.


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## Adam W. (14 Jan 2022)

And @Cabinetman, he's no slouch


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## BucksDad (14 Jan 2022)

Right. I agree that people would need standing to comment on actual woodworking.

I would argue that basic unsafe practices such as using an unguarded table saw... well anyone can point that out


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## Sporky McGuffin (14 Jan 2022)

I'm interested in how we'd establish who is fit to comment. First we'd need to decide who is fit to deem anyone else fit. 

Also we need to decide what topics require what level of fitness, from guards on machines through to dovetail angles and on to aesthetics. 

I look forward to that debate, and plan on interjecting unhelpfully whenever I think it might be funny, assuming I'm deemed fit to post in the discussion.


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## Droogs (14 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> 5, maybe 4, I don't like 2 of those and the other one is a bit of a ...... so 1 and he may have died


@doctor Bob I hope not, I was hoping to maybe be able to invite him to come on a trip to capital crispen this year and advise on getting some veneers in exchange for a nice dinner in the big town. 🕯


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## Droogs (14 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I'm interested in how we'd establish who is fit to comment. First we'd need to decide who is fit to deem anyone else fit.
> 
> Also we need to decide what topics require what level of fitness, from guards on machines through to dovetail angles and on to aesthetics.
> 
> I look forward to that debate, and plan on interjecting unhelpfully whenever I think it might be funny, assuming I'm deemed fit to post in the discussion.


I heard a rumour that somm'it the like was going on in the neo loony leave yer coat outside thread and aparrently you were the main topic or was it that it's a marathon disscussion but you are in the lead


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## Sporky McGuffin (14 Jan 2022)

Better to be talked about than shouted at.


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## Droogs (14 Jan 2022)

sorry didn't realise I was shouting oops


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## Droogs (14 Jan 2022)

I do wonder at times if, you join the loony tunes thread - does it automatically block all the bad things people have said about you in there before you joined, just so no one gets a flashy bang type parcel for SS?


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## Freddyjersey2016 (14 Jan 2022)

BucksDad said:


> Part two now out for anyone interested
> 
> Ash standing lamp build part Two. - YouTube


Hmmm - not the greatest woodworking video I have ever seen - no commentary at all, and no explanation in the text about the processes - so of little use to a beginner. 
I don't like to be critical, but I didn't understand why he sanded the top of the base before cutting the mortise rather than after (and agree the tenon did need shoulders). Why cut the cable groove on the underside across the grain (rather than along the grain) making it more difficult to clean up using a chisel plane? Drilling holes with a large forstner bit usually better done in a pillar drill in high quality work? Bandsaw blade guides should have been down.


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## Adam W. (14 Jan 2022)

Droogs said:


> I do wonder at times if, you join the loony tunes thread - does it automatically block all the bad things people have said about you in there before you joined, just so no one gets a flashy bang type parcel for SS?


No.


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## D_W (14 Jan 2022)

Freddyjersey2016 said:


> Hmmm - not the greatest woodworking video I have ever seen - no commentary at all, and no explanation in the text about the processes - so of little use to a beginner.



The internet has now been demonstrated (from the beginning where there was appreciation and lack of commentary (freddy, this isn't any critique of your post - I like it because if someone will tell me something that they're doing and they're experienced, I want to know what they're thinking. It's not usually what we're thinking they may be thinking). So at the start of this thread, we find favor because the guy doesn't talk, and probably not just you and I sat on that thinking, I sure wish he'd give us at least some brief talk about the objective else it's just entertainment more or less. And we end at you, and now me agreeing with you. 

The more I want to know about something, the more I'd like to hear from the presenter, even if I can't digest all of what they're showing in one sitting - I'll come back and review and repeat. I think before the internet, we all did that - it was on us a little bit more to stimulate our own brains, and not just on someone to entertain us. 

In this case, though, I sense from another video that autoplayed, the guy is finding out that he needs to add a social media component to the business to make it viable. Like a million other folks struggling, he's turned from looking at customers to finding someone else who might want to do what he's doing. But drawing those people in is more about making them feel a certain way. 

Sort of like why most of my resentment for Paul Seller's schtick is that the underlying theme is that you can maybe have the carrot that you could learn from him to be a woodworker and make money at it. 

What he doesn't tell you is that he doesn't really know that - his expertise is at drawing in beginners - that's his business. If he were making things and living the lifestyle that he sort of floats out there like a tent revival preacher, we wouldn't have heard of him - his customers would.


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## doctor Bob (14 Jan 2022)

Droogs said:


> I do wonder at times if, you join the loony tunes thread - does it automatically block all the bad things people have said about you in there before you joined, just so no one gets a flashy bang type parcel for SS?


I like to think that the chaps in the loony forum sing my praises and are telling each other that Bobby knew best. Of course outside of the loony forum they will never admit it, probably the opposite.


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## Droogs (14 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> No.


OH! So who did you try to blow up for SS


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## Adam W. (14 Jan 2022)

Don't know what you mean.


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## Cabinetman (14 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> And @Cabinetman, he's no slouch


 Sorry Adam, I’ve lost your bank details or shall I post you a cheque? Ian


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## Adam W. (14 Jan 2022)

Shhh, you're not supposed to tell what our little arrangement was.


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## sawdust1 (16 Jan 2022)

Working last week for a customer who's husband went out a brought a sawbench ( don't know from where) assembled it
and only after 10 minutes of use took off one finger and severed the tendons in his thumb.
Eight months off work with no driving.
He had no training, no guarding and no push sticks, he's not even a wood worker.
Its so easy to go out and buy a machine that can do a lot of damage without any training, apart from viewing something
on youtube.


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## Allen Quay (16 Jan 2022)

sawdust1 said:


> Working last week for a customer who's husband went out a brought a sawbench ( don't know from where) assembled it
> and only after 10 minutes of use took off one finger and severed the tendons in his thumb.
> Eight months off work with no driving.
> He had no training, no guarding and no push sticks, he's not even a wood worker.
> ...



Crikey, that's a scary thought!
There are some good safety videos on youtube about how to use a table saw. But there are also lots of people on youtube who use their saw without a blade guard.


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## TheTiddles (16 Jan 2022)

Allen Quay said:


> Crikey, that's a scary thought!
> There are some good safety videos on youtube about how to use a table saw. But there are also lots of people on youtube who use their saw without a blade guard.


A decent bit of advice would be to read the HSE guidance and treat that as your reference, anything else if for amusement value only.


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## Peter Sefton (16 Jan 2022)

The HSE has its own videos, not perfect but a good starting point.





__





Woodworking videos


Health and safety executive advice for the woodworking industry and allied trades occupational health and safety advice




www.hse.gov.uk





Cheers

Peter


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## Adam W. (16 Jan 2022)

How about facial injuries from chainsaws for beginners. You just need to be over 18 to be able to walk away with a 125cc saw with a three foot bar.

They produce quite distinctive injuries, as they remove material and don't just cut.

I won't post any pictures, as it might put you off your dinner.

Youtube is awash with chainsaw users in shorts and t shirts, even woodworkers like Ashley Harwood don't protect their ankles and partial foot amputations are a common one.


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## Jacob (16 Jan 2022)

I missed those entertaining sounding vids from bears workshop! 
Apparently he does "Bridal joints" - is that where they hang out before the wedding?
PS no they are still there https://www.youtube.com/c/BearsWorkshopUK
I don't think he knows what he's doing at all Terms — Bears Workshop Woodworking Co.


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## D_W (16 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Apparently he does "Bridal joints" - is that where they hang out before the wedding?



That's what the brides and the bridesmaids smoke to chill out before a wedding.


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## Setch (16 Jan 2022)

It seems churlish to pile on further, but look at the chatter/tear out on the edge of the base when he's cleaning up his mortice with the router plane.

If it looks like that now, is going to look 10 times worse with finish applied.


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## TheTiddles (16 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> How about facial injuries from chainsaws for beginners. You just need to be over 18 to be able to walk away with a 125cc saw with a three foot bar.
> 
> They produce quite distinctive injuries, as they remove material and don't just cut.
> 
> ...


I’ll raise you… people mowing the lawn wearing flip-flops, I’ll never forget the guy in the chronic wound clinic who’d had an accident a decade ago, still waiting for it to heal


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## JDW (19 Jan 2022)

sawdust1 said:


> Working last week for a customer who's husband went out a brought a sawbench ( don't know from where) assembled it
> and only after 10 minutes of use took off one finger and severed the tendons in his thumb.
> Eight months off work with no driving.
> He had no training, no guarding and no push sticks, he's not even a wood worker.
> ...



I bought my first table saw a couple of years back, I can't believe they don't come with push blocks or at the very least a push stick.


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## artie (19 Jan 2022)

JBD007 said:


> I can't believe they don't come with push blocks or at the very least a push stick.


It's maybe 15 years since I bought a new one but it came with a plastic push stick.


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## JobandKnock (19 Jan 2022)

JBD007 said:


> I bought my first table saw a couple of years back, I can't believe they don't come with push blocks or at the very least a push stick.


It shouldn't have come with a push block (in the UK, at least) - those stupid things are dangerous. As to no push sticks, even my crummy deWalt DW745 site saw came with a push stick


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## powertools (19 Jan 2022)

TheTiddles said:


> I’ll raise you… people mowing the lawn wearing flip-flops, I’ll never forget the guy in the chronic wound clinic who’d had an accident a decade ago, still waiting for it to heal




Perhaps all lawn mowers should come with a pair of safety boots.

It is for people to do their own research about the things they choose to buy.


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## baldkev (19 Jan 2022)

sawdust1 said:


> Working last week for a customer who's husband went out a brought a sawbench ( don't know from where) assembled it
> and only after 10 minutes of use took off one finger and severed the tendons in his thumb.


Maybe 21ish years ago I finished my apprenticeship and started doing jobs. I did a decking job for an older chap. A month later i saw him at the doctors, he was all bandaged up...... he liked my chopsaw, so went and bought one for cutting firewood. It cost him 2 fingers



JobandKnock said:


> even my crummy deWalt DW745



 what dont you like? Ive got one about 18 months old. Apart from the noise i think its a good site saw. I built a knock down table for mine which extends the table surface and with the saw screwed down its pretty good. But my god, the noise


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## JobandKnock (19 Jan 2022)

baldkev said:


> A month later i saw him at the doctors, he was all bandaged up...... he liked my chopsaw, so went and bought one for cutting firewood. It cost him 2 fingers


From a posting elsewhere on the 'net last year:





Spot the deliberate(?) error. Guy complained that he was struggling to cut the diagonals for a ledged and braced gate on his chop saw. He does own a cordless circular saw as well...



baldkev said:


> what dont you like? Ive got one about 18 months old. Apart from the noise i think its a good site saw. I built a knock down table for mine which extends the table surface and with the saw screwed down its pretty good. But my god, the noise


Other than the noise and the fact that it needs a good clean power supply that isn't being shared with anyone else, nothing at all actually. I was just trying to point out that even a relatively low-cost piece of kit _should _come with a push stick. Mine's about 5-1/2 years old and has been good value other than the need to rebuild the fence locking linkage (twice to date - but that's down to ripping-down loads of larger timbers far too often). Having it on the mobile base makes it a doddle to move around site if/when needs be. I still wish it had an induction motor like the old Elu flip-over saws, though


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## baldkev (19 Jan 2022)

Yep actually, mine is a good way to test the electrics!
How much did the fence linkage cost?? 
I really like the rack and pinion setup. But annoyingly the dust does get in those runners a lot


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## JobandKnock (19 Jan 2022)

It wasn't expensive. Last time I did it I think it needed about £30 worth of parts (bit difficult to be exact as I was repairing 3 or 4 other tools at the same time). The fence lock is a bit of a so and so to get at as you end up taking the fence off and flipping the saw on its' top to do the job. TBH I don't think that dragging it around the countryside hither and thither to fit-outs for a while (supermarket work, two nights here, three there) did it any favours, but at least it gives me a reasonable saw for when I retire


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## TRITON (20 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> I missed those entertaining sounding vids from bears workshop!
> Apparently he does "Bridal joints" - is that where they hang out before the wedding?
> PS no they are still there https://www.youtube.com/c/BearsWorkshopUK
> I don't think he knows what he's doing at all Terms — Bears Workshop Woodworking Co.


I hate seeing people working machinery with sleeves rolled down. They should be up above the elbows.

Funny thing. When he did the dry fit for the oak tray, you could see the mitres werent exactly 45deg This is why I love my mitre trimmer.


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## JDW (20 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> It shouldn't have come with a push block (in the UK, at least) - those stupid things are dangerous. As to no push sticks, even my crummy deWalt DW745 site saw came with a push stick



Yeah I brain farted. It did come with a thin plastic push stick which wasn't all that so I bought a set of
these which help me keep control of the board and keep my fingers away from the blade.


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## JobandKnock (20 Jan 2022)

Oh dear, there is only one of those which keeps your hand anywhere away from the blade, and even that looks too short (should be 450mm or longer like the HSE design below it):










The rest of them just don't work well on a table saw or planer. The one from the HSE site I've illustrated is similar to the one I was introduced to in wood machining training decades ago. Takes about 5 minutes to run one up on a bandsaw or even with a jigsaw, and another few minutes to round the edges. I make mine in pairs from any timber to hand (generally knot-free pine as we tend to have a lot of it about). If I cream cracker one I just cut another from an offcut


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## Jacob (20 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> Oh dear, there is only one of those which keeps your hand anywhere away from the blade, and even that looks too short (should be 450mm or longer like the HSE design below it):
> 
> View attachment 127451
> 
> ...


I agree bin them all except one.
Except IMHO the standard pattern is a better shape than the HSE design which has only a tiny birdsmouth. The bigger birdsmouth gives more control - pressing down at the tip, or in at the bottom lip, or both and anywhere in between


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## JDW (20 Jan 2022)

No, I definitely do not put my hands near the blade, ever. Which is why I still have all my fingers and thumbs. I'm comfortable using these blocks, it's about using the right ones for the right piece of timber.


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## Doug71 (20 Jan 2022)

I have recently added a slightly different style of push stick to my collection which I have found quite useful, it doesn't replace a normal push stick but is handy to have alongside it. 

It's just basically a push stick with a spike at the end instead of a birds mouth (hammer in nail, cut off, grind to a point). Obviously you don't want it anywhere near the blade but I find it works well in some situations having the spiked version in your left hand with a normal one in your right, the spiked version does seem to give you more control, also really handy for moving off cuts out of the way.

It was Trevanion (once of this parish) who suggested I try one and glad I did


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## pe2dave (21 Jan 2022)

JBD007 said:


> No, I definitely do not put my hands near the blade, ever. Which is why I still have all my fingers and thumbs. I'm comfortable using these blocks, it's about using the right ones for the right piece of timber.


Quite agree. My brother in law is missing three 'half fingers' from that trick.


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## doctor Bob (21 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> I hate seeing people working machinery with sleeves rolled down. They should be up above the elbows.



No way, I'd be frozen for 6 months of the year, get Guarding sorted and forget the sleeves (I'd say no baggy sleeves)


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## Doug71 (21 Jan 2022)

Same as Dr Bob I have no problem with long sleeves as long as they are tight fitting. 

The hoodie seems to be standard workwear these days, I'm not that keen on them in the workshop, especially the ones with the drawstrings hanging down  

I remember someone quoting from an old Sedgwick manual that it was recommended you wore a clip on tie, how our standards have dropped


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## doctor Bob (21 Jan 2022)

Doug71 said:


> I remember someone quoting from an old Sedgwick manual that it was recommended you wore a clip on tie, how our standards have dropped



Bow ties only here.


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## Droogs (21 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Bow ties only here.


Something like this Bob


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## JDW (21 Jan 2022)

I wouldn't wear a hoodie, way too baggy and as mentioned there's the draw strings hanging down. It's a polo shirt and well fitted fleece for me, cargo work trousers and my dewalt work boots.

If it's hot I might switch into my lederhosen...


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## TheTiddles (21 Jan 2022)

Everyone should wear hoodies, they’re multi-purpose, keeping you warm and making you cool, both at the same time.


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## Sporky McGuffin (21 Jan 2022)

Also they scare off the boomers.


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## TRITON (21 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> No way, I'd be frozen for 6 months of the year, get Guarding sorted and forget the sleeves (I'd say no baggy sleeves)


For me it comes from working in a butchers for years. Supermarkets were the worst really as the prep room is held at a constant 2c degrees and all you have is a short sleeved shirt. But most shops if you complain about being cold the answer is WORK HARDER.
I think the worst was one winter when it was about -5c in the shop, and butchers shops dont have heating. Hands so cold small cuts didnt bleed,and it was warmer in the chill. Come wash up was the joy of the day.


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