# European Ash vs American Ash



## Chems (8 May 2010)

They are priced the same, whats the difference?


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## rileytoolworks (8 May 2010)

One's from America, one's from Europe.



Hat, coat, door.......      :wink:


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## ByronBlack (8 May 2010)

From the pieces i've worked with, american ash seems to have straighter grain and is slightly whiter than european ash which was creamier. I paid less for american ash.


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## Chems (8 May 2010)

Thanks Bryon, I'll have a good look on monday. Planning to finish with Hard Wax Oil, shouldn't yellow it should it?


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## ByronBlack (9 May 2010)

I'm not au-fait with hard wax oil, so I can't be sure. I used danish oil and had some strong yellowing. My next project just used a beeswax finish and it came up a treat.


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## bobscarle (9 May 2010)

I have just finished a couple of projects on which I used hard wax oil. It looks the same as danish oil so I presume would have the same, or very similar, colouring effect, at least it seems to on oak. I have used danish oil on ash before and I do not have a problem with it, although there does seem to be a number of people on here who do not like it.

I used the new Chestnut hard wax. This was the first time I have used wax oil so I have no idea what other makes are like. I do like the finish though.

Bob


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## wizer (9 May 2010)

I ave used Osmo on Both US an EU Ash and it very much did yellow it! I'd be very wary of using any oil on Ash. Make sure you do a test piece and leave it in the place the finished furniture will live, for at least a month. The baby walker I made for my daughter only went a lovely shade of urine about a month after I finished it. If you want to keep it light the it's got to be either Ultra Blonde Shellac or some sort of water based lacquer IMHO.


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## ByronBlack (9 May 2010)

I'm with Tom on this one - if you don't want any colouration, a spray or brush on lacquer would be good. I used a spray can Behlens nitro product that was clear white and could give either a matt or glossy finish depending on how much sanding/polishing you want to do.

Something like this (aerosol can - but other types also available)
http://www.behlen.co.uk/Merchant2/m...Product_Code=B104-1406&Category_Code=MUSICFIN


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## devonwoody (9 May 2010)

The American ash I have used (kiln dried) is not as coarse a grain, so I prefer American.


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## woodbloke (9 May 2010)

wizer":1g3zvapi said:


> I ave used Osmo on Both US an EU Ash and it very much did yellow it! I'd be very wary of using any oil on Ash. Make sure you do a test piece and leave it in the place the finished furniture will live, for at least a month. The baby walker I made for my daughter only went a lovely shade of urine about a month after I finished it. If you want to keep it light the it's got to be either Ultra Blonde Shellac or some sort of water based lacquer IMHO.


I agree with Tom here...don't on any account use oil on ash - Rob


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## BradNaylor (9 May 2010)

Not log after I started out on my own, I got a big job supplying ash door casings, skirtings, and archs for a new build house. I bought in a pack of American ash.

It was all a uniform very pale, almost white colour. The customer was so delighted that he ordered some more.

I couldn't get any more American ash however, so not knowing any better, I ordered some European. 

Big mistake! The colour raged from white to dark brown, encompassing green along the way. Half of it was almost indistinguishable from oak.

I've still got some of that batch of European ash - ten years later. Slowly it is disappearing into our wood-burner!

Cheers
Brad


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## OPJ (9 May 2010)

I've found that European ash is a little easier to work than the American species, which tends to feel a bit tougher when you're planing it by hand.

About four-years ago, I put a couple of coats of Danish oil (it was either Rustins or Liberon) on some European ash and it didn't seem to darken it much at all! :roll:

In my experience, Osmo's hardwax oil doesn't darken (English) ash as much as Danish can but I would personally try it on a couple of offcuts, first of all. If you don't fancy a lacquer finish, you could always brush on a coat of sanding sealer, denib it and then coat it with wax. :wink: A water-based sealer (such as Chestnut's Acrylic) won't darken the ash as much as some others might... Though, I wouldn't expect any sealer (spirt, cellulose, shellac etc.) to have quite the effect that Danish oil can have.


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## L Harding (9 May 2010)

Just to put my two cents in, even tho it may be repeating some thing that have already been said...

American ash is far superior to Euro, for all the reasons already stated. Also the straightness of the grain means it doesnt move much, making it ideal for drawer boxes.

In terms of finishing, hard wax or danish oil will defo yellow any ash. A lacquer (pre-cat in cans is always a handy thing to have in the home shop) will be much better, although remember you'll need to 'seal' first. White polish (sallac) would also work well.

One other thing to say about danish oil tho... Although it will yellow the ash, a well refined one will also darken the grain a fair bit compared to main body of the wood. Almost giving it the look of olive ash. I think it can look very good, so it could be worth doing a sample like this and seeing what you think.

Also the 'osmo' hard wax oil comes in a matt finish option. This one doesnt yellow anywhere near as much, and if you only put a couple of coats on it actually gives a virtually un-finished look to the wood, while still giving it some protection. Not my favorite, but some people like it.


Luke


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## Chems (9 May 2010)

Thanks guys, I'll defiantly get American ash as its the same price as European but sounds a lot better. 

I only have melamine lacquer in stock, is the morells stuff water based?


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## Mike H (9 May 2010)

European has more character and variety.

It can be white, olive, etc... but also we can obtain in Europe some srtiking ripppled Ash which I have never seen in imported american.

American is kiln dried and we can obtain air dried european Ash which will make machining and hand working much more pleasant.

European ash is easier to find to match with, say Oak, for a project.

I tend to pay nearly the same price but there is much less waste in the bland straight grained Am. Ash.

If you want to see some splendid Euro ASh, I recommend Tyler's Harwoods near Hungerford, knowledgeable and helpful people.

I hope this helps, I have used Ash for about 50 years on many projects.

Mike

8)


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## Doctor (9 May 2010)

BradNaylor":d8ngfeif said:


> Not log after I started out on my own, I got a big job supplying ash door casings, skirtings, and archs for a new build house.
> Brad



What was the bet here "how many toilet words can I accidentally post" :lol: :lol:


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## Mattty (9 May 2010)

For all the reasons already described i much prefer European Ash, it has lovely varied colour and character, it has lots of defects which make it hard to work but give it much more life than the American version.
Horses for courses i suppose.


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## Chems (9 May 2010)

Now you've confused me, I need to start a poll!


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## Mattty (9 May 2010)

Chems":13fe71d4 said:


> Now you've confused me, I need to start a poll!



Sorry. My point was i really like some of the natural charecteristics/faults which are more predominant in native timber (probably because they wouldn't bother importing anything with common faults). 
It all depends on the piece you are making, ie- if your making a slick cutting edge cabinet then you probably want pristine blemish free timber.


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## Chems (9 May 2010)

tbh I want a slick looking piece which will be accented with some ABW of the style of the famous mattty's alter piece.


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## wizer (9 May 2010)

I have just been turning a large English Ash bowl which was felled last year. It's true that there is much more 'beauty' in the local stuff. But I think if I was making furniture with it, I'd want it as uniform a possible. I guess there's no chance of mixing and matching it, but I think I'd like to use the local stuff for, say, a table top. But use the US stuff for legs, rails, seats, etc.

Against my own opinion, I've just finished it with Shellac Sanding Sealer and Acrylic Lacquer. It only yellowed a bit, but still more than I'd like. The yellowing comes from the shellac sanding sealer which, I assume, does not use the ultra blonde crystals. When I get around to it, I'm going to make up my own 'sealer' using just UB Shellac and Clear Meths.

Looks good tho. Assuming I don't cock up the last stage tomorrow, I'll post a pic.


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## wizer (10 May 2010)

Here you go, English Ash finished with a thin coat of Chestnut Shellac Sanding Sealer and then two coats of Chestnut Acrylic Lacquer.


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## Mattty (10 May 2010)

Thats lovely Tom, i love the dark streaks.


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## ByronBlack (10 May 2010)

Looks nice - some real nice grain - although from my wonky eyes, it looked like a hat


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## OPJ (10 May 2010)

That looks good, Tom.

How did you apply the acrylic lacquer? I've been trying to apply some today but the finish has loads of "bubbles" (this is using a roller). I tried spraying it some time last week but it kept clogging my gun. I then tried diluting it but I fear I went OTT with it... Plus, I bought it back in 2008 and it's been in the workshop through two cold winters...

Might have to sand it all off, chuck the rest and finish it with something else! :?


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## Chems (10 May 2010)

That looks good Tom, very nice.

Its going to be American ash for this piece for me thou. I'll make sure to start a WIP.


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## ondablade (10 May 2010)

Nifty bit of work Tom, lovely character.

For what it's worth my experience with Danish oil over oak (Rustins) is that it changes quite a bit with time. It brings the colour up very nicely from the start, but after a month or two it changes quite a lot - still nice, but the grain darkens quite a lot (gets brown) and it becomes much less clear.

Another non yellowing option that brushes well and flats easily (sprays too, although i've not tried it) is Rustins plastic coating. It's a urea formaldehyde. I did some birch ply shelving for our bathroom and its not darkened or marked at all in over a year...


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## ByronBlack (11 May 2010)

Here's another vote for rustins plastic coating (axminster sell it). I've used it for a number of guitar bodies and necks, very easy to use, and can build to either matt or glossy.


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## wizer (11 May 2010)

Thanks guys. The bowl wasn't a total success but I'm happy with it bearing in mind this is the first time I've turned in 6 months. It does look a bit hat shaped. Or my missus said it's like those sweets you used to get with the sherbet in the middle (Flying Saucers?) :roll:

Olly the lacquer was from an aerosol can. I sprayed from about 12" away using the same sort of technique suggested for HVLP spraying i.e keeping my arm straight as opposed to swinging in an arc and plunging\stopping whilst off the work. I build it up in thin coats. This will probably have another two or three until it's 'done'. 

Chems, the pic was to show the colour using the Shellac\Lacquer combo. It should hopefully remain quite light.


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## devonwoody (11 May 2010)

Tom, I like your ash bowl as well, I got some ash last week that had just been felled. 
Has that bowl been turned from a blank that was cut across the trunk or sliced off the side?


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## wizer (11 May 2010)

It's side grain DW. Cut from a log I chainsawed last summer. The log was given to me by a forum member, down in Kent.


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## bugbear (11 May 2010)

devonwoody":33dltppd said:


> The American ash I have used (kiln dried) is not as coarse a grain, so I prefer American.



In furniture, almost the whole point of (English) ash is the spectacular texture of the grain.

BugBear


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## gasman (11 May 2010)

Tom that looks lovely - really nice
Another vote here for a shellac sanding sealer followed by hardwaxoil - works every time for me and it gives an VERY hardwearing surface which you can buff up a couple of hours after application to a really great shhen


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## OPJ (11 May 2010)

wizer":238oycb1 said:


> ...the lacquer was from an aerosol can.



I don't know why I didn't think of buying that, back in 2008!! :shock:

No brushes or guns to clean. No stroke marks. Just pop the cap back on after and leave it to dry! Saying that, I e-mailed Terry Smart this morning to see if he could explain why I'm having these problems with it and he's also advised me to try a brand new bottle. It does indeed start to thicken up after a year, apparently, even inside the bottle. There's also the possibility that the one I bought could've been sat on the shelves for some time, anyway.


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## Tim Nott (11 May 2010)

Just today finished a French Ash dresser. The wood was very varied and there was a lot of rubbish (most of which they gave us) but I like the olive and brown streaks. I hope the client does but will find out on Thursday. Wish me luck.
I've used sprayed sanding sealer and satin pre-cat lacquer on ash with good results (apart from a bit of orange peel caused by my own inexpertise) but since we have to spray outside and the weather's been dung, we brushed on a water-based satin varnish. Very pleased with the finish - the coarse grain of the ash disguises the (very faint) brush marks and although it's not yellowed it has darkened a bit but in a way that evens up the colour. The 3v3 (French make) varnish dries very quickly - you can move a piece or turn a door over (Axminster painter's cones - YES) after a few minutes, and recoat after 3 hours. Photos soon.


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## aiden (12 May 2010)

It looks the same as danish oil so I presume would have the same, or very similar, colouring effect, at least it seems to on oak. I have used danish oil on ash before and I do not have a problem with it, although there does seem to be a number of people on here who do not like it.


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## AndyT (12 May 2010)

I think there's a risk of confusing two things here - the colour change from the finish and the change from exposure to light.

I've made a bookcase and a wardrobe from Ash (probably European) and finished them with Danish Oil. 

I don't much like the pale blonde colour of newly cut wood, but am really pleased how they have darkened down to a rich brown (not yellow!) colour and got more character after ten years of exposure to sunlight. 

This is how the wardrobe looks:






the whole thing:






and by contrast, the inside, not exposed to light:


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## Chems (12 May 2010)

Thanks guys, I bought 2 cubic feet of 1" ash and a bit of 1.5" for the end frames. Spent a lot of time picking out some very white boards with the nice chaps at Good Timber (they are worth driving at least 100miles to visit) and hope that it makes nice furniture.


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## OPJ (12 May 2010)

Looks forward to seeing the WIP photos, Chems. 

Did you go for European or American ash, in the end?


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## Chems (12 May 2010)

American, I asked the guy at the place and he said he liked it better for a few good reasons. 

Picked out some nice boards, and my P/T is arriving back from FedEx tomorrow after having been repaired by SIP under warranty.


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