# Morse tapers.



## caveman (21 Oct 2017)

I have a small woodworking lathe (and I mean small) and I want to put a slightly larger chuck on it as the one on there only goes to 6mm.

The spindle from the motor is (I believe) a Morse Taper being just 18mm long and 10mm diameter at the big end and 9.2mm diameter at the small, outer end. Is this a #1 morse?

I have a slightly larger radial drill and that has a chuck that goes out to 12mm, exactly what I want.
The taper on the drill is 24mm long, 15.75mm at the large diameter and 14.6mm at the small diameter. A #2 morse?

I just want to confirm that the tapers are what I think they are so I can get an adapter sleeve.


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## marcros (21 Oct 2017)

measurements in inches https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php 

what make is the lathe- sometimes easier to look it up and check that way.


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## Robbo3 (21 Oct 2017)

Sorry, I can't confirm your tapers.
Do you mean Jacobs type drill chucks.? If so it's probably easiest to just buy a new chuck with a 1MT arbor. Even though you can get keyless chucks there is often not enough body length to get a good grip, so the keyed type may be better. I'm talking about the small chuck that fits on an electric or battery drill rather than the larger type used in engineering.
Also, if you buy the chuck & arbour separately, they have to match. Some chucks are threaded & some have a taper in the rear for the arbor to mate with.


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## caveman (21 Oct 2017)

marcros":1y80faj5 said:


> measurements in inches https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php
> 
> what make is the lathe- sometimes easier to look it up and check that way.



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-24V-Mi...var=451896267709&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

I don't think I'll get much info on this although I have asked the seller the question!


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## chaoticbob (21 Oct 2017)

Hi caveman - I'm assuming that what you have on both machines is a male taper machined on the end of the spindle, so an arbour isn't what you're after - more a sleeve to bring the spindle taper on the lathe up to a larger size.
Taper fitting drill chucks usually come in one of two flavours - Jacobs taper (JT) or B-series. B-series are sort of cut-off sections of a full Morse taper.
From the Wikipedia page it looks like the closest match to your lathe taper is JT1, which would make sense as it's commonly used for 1/4" capacity chucks. The radial drill is probably JT33 or B16.
Have you examined the existing lathe chuck for any markings? Normally they have the taper type stamped on them somwhere.
Rob.


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## CHJ (21 Oct 2017)

Can we have a picture of your lathe spindle nose please.

It is not normal to have Lathe headstock chucks fitted to a taper.

Lathe chucks normally thread on to the spindle against a locating and alignment collar.
Most lathes with hollow spindles have a No1 or No2 Morse taper in them that can take a drive centre or a Jacobs style chuck which in itself is usually but not always fitted to a short chuck taper on the end of the appropriate Morse taper.

Jacobs type chucks fitted in a headstock need either a draw bar to hold them in or if not fitted, the tailstock must be brought up to provide positive pressure to stop it coming adrift in use.

Morse Taper dimensions


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## chaoticbob (21 Oct 2017)

CHJ":4ccootu4 said:


> Can we have a picture of your lathe spindle nose please.
> 
> It is not normal to have Lathe headstock chucks fitted to a taper.



Looking at caveman's eBay link to the machine, it's not a normal lathe! Seems it's supplied with a drill chuck on the headstock driven directly from the motor spindle. So quite possibly a male taper on the spindle, odd as it seems.
Rob


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## CHJ (21 Oct 2017)

OK my laziness, had not opened up the link.

Is there a makers name on the chuck, it might help determine what chuck taper standard it's likely to be.
Chuck mounting Tapers by brand

Fitting a larger chuck with its increased mass may compromise the working power available slightly.


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## Robbo3 (22 Oct 2017)

The standard threads for Jacobs type chucks are 3/8" x 24 TPI & 1/2" x 20TPI. They probably supply a small chuck to save money & because the machine doesn't have enough power to cope with larger items.

If the threads on the motor are different to above then I suspect you will have a job to find a suitable chuck. 6mm capacity is quite small. 10mm & 13mm capacity are much more common.

One point in your favour is that it is dispatched from a UK warehouse therefore the seller has to abide by UK laws.


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## caveman (22 Oct 2017)

Fantastic! Many thanks for the interest - all very helpful and I have the answer!

As I said, it is a very small lathe designed for making beads I believe. I only need to make very small shafts and fits for the wooden clock but would like to go out to a 12mm chuck.

Here's a picture of the taper on the motor shaft - looks like brass???

Having looked at the chuck, it is made in China (no surprise there then!) by SAN OU and I've found their website and the chuck has B10 on it which would appear to be the taper fit according to the website!

My drill chuck is a Jacobs with a B16 taper so I guess I need an adapter from the B10 to B16!

Yes, possibly compromise the available power with the extra weight but then the larger chuck will have more kinetic energy stored so should work out OK. I,m only turning 12mm wood down to between 6-10mm and taking it slowly should work ok!

http://en.sanouchuck.com/english/product0.asp?type=2


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## Rorschach (22 Oct 2017)

Given the size you could consider modifying the spindle into an M14x1mm thread, then you have a large range of lathe chucks and accessories to choose from.


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## caveman (22 Oct 2017)

Rorschach":1gfq5gfz said:


> Given the size you could consider modifying the spindle into an M14x1mm thread, then you have a large range of lathe chucks and accessories to choose from.


Yikes! Bit outside my capability me thinks but will have a closer look at the shaft. Maybe that taper unscrews and there's a thread on the main shaft of some sort? We'll see.


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## chaoticbob (22 Oct 2017)

caveman":1kyqntii said:


> Fantastic! Many thanks for the interest - all very helpful and I have the answer!
> 
> .....
> 
> My drill chuck is a Jacobs with a B16 taper so I guess I need an adapter from the B10 to B16!


Excellent that you have found definite info on the tapers.

Out of interest (because I've never come across such things) I had a cursory look for adaptor sleeves, but didn't come across any. If they're not commercially available it may be possible to exploit the fact that B10 is the small end of MT1 and B16 the small end of MT2. So in principle I guess you could make your own by slicing the small end off a full length MT adaptor sleeve such as can be found here.
Rob


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## caveman (22 Oct 2017)

chaoticbob":2honcodf said:


> caveman":2honcodf said:
> 
> 
> > Fantastic! Many thanks for the interest - all very helpful and I have the answer!
> ...


Yes I've thought of that and am looking into it as one option. I have also asked several morse suppliers if they have such a sleeve off the shelf. No hurry!!


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## caveman (26 Oct 2017)

Going back to your idea chaoticbob, I guess I need to buy two sleeves, an MT1 and an MT2 to achieve my desired result, then cut them to give me the two bits needed. Am I right? They're not expensive so quite happy to try it!


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## chaoticbob (26 Oct 2017)

caveman":25j83h0h said:


> Going back to your idea chaoticbob, I guess I need to buy two sleeves, an MT1 and an MT2 to achieve my desired result, then cut them to give me the two bits needed. Am I right? They're not expensive so quite happy to try it!



Hi, the sleeves I linked to have an MT1 female taper on the inside and an MT2 male taper on the outside, so if I've understood your problem correctly you just need one - the narrow end of the sleeve should match the B10 male taper on your spindle on the inside, and the B16 female taper of your chuck on the outside.
I've never actually tried this, just an idea! Although I use the full length sleeves a lot, I've never had cause to try cutting one down - I imagine the steel is hardened so you'll probably either have to go at it with an angle grinder or something, or try tempering it.
Rob.


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## CHJ (26 Oct 2017)

caveman":2gsz87lc said:


> Going back to your idea chaoticbob, I guess I need to buy two sleeves, an MT1 and an MT2 to achieve my desired result, then cut them to give me the two bits needed. Am I right? They're not expensive so quite happy to try it!



I would forget the references to Morse Tapers, what you need is a thin sleeve with the two differing *Chuck Tapers*, not something you are likely to find on a shelf.
I'm pretty sure you will have to get one turned up for you as a one-off, not a cheap option unless you have a very good friend with the facilities.





(relevant tapers may be different to sketch)

To make one with the required accuracy is not a quick task and involves having to turn up a dummy male taper the same as you lathe spindle to test the fit of the inner taper, a mandrel to match your spindle to hold it whilst the outer taper is cut to match your new chuck.

Even using a sawn off portion of a mandrel off the correct standard to suit your bigger chuck will still require the making of a matching taper socket to mount it in whilst boring the inner taper and a dummy male taper the same as you lathe spindle to test the fit of the inner taper.


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## caveman (26 Oct 2017)

Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to find CHJ, but as you say, probably very expensive to produce as a one off! However, if the tapers on the M1/M2 adapter are as chaoticbob suggests, then it becomes a very cheap option - just a £5 - so worth trying!

I do have an angle grinder so the cutting, although time consuming, should be within my capability!

Thanks for the interest and help guys.


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## CHJ (26 Oct 2017)

Afraid you are not understanding Morse Taper adaptor sleeves are a different Taper "MORSE"

The chuck tapers on the end of such adaptors to take a chuck are a different standard and angle, hence chaoticbobs reference to *B10 taper *on your spindle on the inside, and the *B16 taper *. They are not the same angle as the Morse Taper sleeves that fit in a Headstock. Tailstock or Pillar drill.


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## chaoticbob (26 Oct 2017)

CHJ":upgmdrye said:


> Afraid you are not understanding Morse Taper adaptor sleeves are a different Taper "MORSE"
> 
> The chuck tapers on the end of such adaptors to take a chuck are a different standard and angle, hence chaoticbobs reference to *B10 taper *on your spindle on the inside, and the *B16 taper *. They are not the same angle as the Morse Taper sleeves that fit in a Headstock. Tailstock or Pillar drill.



Well, you'd think so (that was my assumption too at first) , but it turns out B-series tapers are sections of full Morse tapers - see the Wiki link in my first reply to this thread for a table of correspondences. 

To check this out I've just tried 'reversing' an MT2/B16 arbour in a B16 chuck, ie sticking the MT end which normally goes in the drill press, tailstock or whatever into the chuck and it fits perfectly. 
Rob.


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## CHJ (26 Oct 2017)

Well that's news to me, I've only ever seen the dimensions (Min dia. - Max dia. and length of taper.) and never bothered to compute or check the angles. Guess the wall thickness of the sleeve will determine how much projection you will get.
Stand corrected.


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## J-G (26 Oct 2017)

CHJ":h3nk116s said:


> Well that's news to me ...


And to me CHJ. When I saw the original suggestion I started to write a response just like yours but before posting did check out the reference to 'B' tapers and was surprised to see the equivalence with 'short MORSE'. I would have expected the chuck to have a 'JACOBS' taper which is very different from a Morse taper. And were that the case your caution would be spot on.

I suspect that you and I are 'old school' and 'B' tapers are new-fangled aberrations    - - - devised to trip us up !


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## CHJ (26 Oct 2017)

Must admit all my chucks (of various pedigree Jacobs and otherwise) have JT Tapers.

Yes, definitely old school, spent an hour this afternoon loading the car for a trip to the recycle centre in the morning, not the first trip this week, today's seen several 10's of kilos of assorted odd ball bits of metalwork, nuts bolts, screws brackets etc. that once met the 'might be useful' criteria, several hundred 5-1/4" and 3-1/2" floppies, including full sets of Windows and office original software. their respective drives closeted away should they be useful some time, old Amstrad gear and software. Several years worth of PCPlus magazine CD's. All started last week with a draw that was overloaded in my old 'Den' and in need of some TLC. Of coarse it was full of stuff not really needed as were all the other draws, and of course it would be better replaced with a matching unit to the others!!! we've now got about four sq. mtrs of storage floor space empty, a couple of sq. mtrs. of shed space as a result of re-housing the old draw units, and still a few days of refining the needed pile to go. Must keep the shed door secured as much as possible for a while, there's still a smidgen of 'surplus' in there.


Sorry for going off on an off-topic ramble *caveman* I feel better for it anyway.


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## caveman (26 Oct 2017)

Cheeeee! And you still had room to live in the house


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