# Hill LATE Howel Backsaw



## jimi43 (18 Jul 2012)

I recently posted a group picture including a gorgeous little backsaw acquired from the estate of the famous taxidermist.... Roland Ward MORE INFO HERE







It is from the quite rare maker...Howel...or rather an apprentice after his death...one Joseph Vaughn Hill of Sun Street London.






I thought I would start a discussion on this old gent....for a number of reasons which will become evident.

I know that Chris...(adidat)...found a far better condition one of this maker at a bootfair last year...





Click on the image for the thread.

In this thread I said that I would dearly love one of these little saws...and it has taken a year...but success at last!

Just to repeat the research I did at the time...



> HILL, Joseph Vaughan LONDON
> 64 Cromer Street, Gray’s Inn Road [also given as Judd Street] 1834-1836
> 5 Chichester Place, Gray’s Inn Road 1839-1863
> 252 Gray’s Inn Road 1864-1909
> Saw maker and tool dealer, but also produced many planes marked J.V.Hill; a letter head from his early days describes him as a wholesale saw manufacturer. He was foreman to J.Howell (Howell’s own invariable spelling), planemaker of Chelsea (1806-1840), hence the marks. His use of a zigzag bordered mark is exceptionally late; his marks on saw backs are invariably more deeply struck than almost any other maker’s. Recent research by Jeff Warner has shown that his prosperity (considerable: he died a rich man) was based on his business being close to the piano-making area of London, The longevity of the firm was due to its continuance under the same name for several years after Hill’s death.



Subsequent to this research...and supported by the initial records...I was intrigued by the little dot above the word LATE in the group of incised and embossed stamps. Apparently it is not a dot but a SUN....and was used to indicate that it was at his shop in Sun Street...

Here he assembled saws from constituent parts already made by his old employer...J.Howel...and did so for quite some time relying on sales from the goodwill and reputation of the maker who gave him his skills.

Information about this "maker" is sketchy and rather contradictory in places...especially with regards to dating from the stamps. Clearly, this example was made after the demise of Mr Howel...so that sets a "from" date to 1840. As to the "to" date...I believe this to be relatively early. 

There are a number of reasons for this...

Firstly, the use of the antiquated "I" instead of "J" for Joseph. And secondly...later models are stamped J.V.Hill...using the later initials.

My guess at this point is this was made almost immediately after 1840....

Now for my next discussion point. What to do with this saw.

The options are to keep it totally original and with all the war wounds. The teeth preclude the use of this saw....






One can clearly see the "skip" nature of the teeth! :mrgreen: Some are good...others lower after poor sharpening and yet more...missing entirely in ones and twos or complete rows!

Then there's the issue of the handle.....






The worst damage is obviously the top horn....gone entirely. Closer inspection of the bottom horn reveals a lack of crispness...perhaps even reshaping from a small break long ago.

The second option is to have the teeth reworked and a full sharpen. I happen to know someone who would perhaps relish the challenge that this old boy would present...and judging by the last one I had done....would make a superb job of it. I could then just use it with pride and not worry about the handle.

Thirdly...get it sharpened AND fix that top horn. It is a difficult one....






The break happened many moons ago. The owner has just trimmed it down neatly and just put it back to work. I am split on this one. I like the history of the damage...and it's certainly not uncomfortable to use...but it has lost that mojo that these beautiful twin horns have...with the lamb's tongue totally undamaged below. Help me jump off the fence on this one...I know I can repair this...almost invisibly...but should I? :? 

Notice from this shot....






...that there is a distinct bias to the way the steel is fitted to this handle. I believe this is to hand the saw...and even more clearly the main owner was left handed....as am I. You can tell this because the indentation for the index finger pad is worn smooth on the upper edge (left side) in this picture...and it perfectly fits my finger.

This fascinates me....is it true or just supposition? Anyone know?






Just to finish off my first post....I have to say why I bought this saw in the first place.

I wanted a really damaged saw to break for the back so that I could make a mitre plane ala Bill Carter using the back bent to reveal the maker at the rear. I wanted a really interesting and old plane to do this with but all the above makes me think...this is not the donor. It's simply too beautiful and crying out for me to put it back to work. I think I should look for another to be that donor...perhaps one that is beyond repair...one with a little less mojo....and one that isn't left handed!!! :mrgreen: 

Oh and just one small thing...click each photo for a hi definition version.

Over to you guys...discuss! 8) 

Nite!

Jimi


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## RogerP (18 Jul 2012)

Depends whether you want a museum piece or a working tool. This saw has obviously suffered years of carelessness, abuse and neglect. Either keep it as an example of past users' indifference to a fine tool or return it to its former glory. I'd do the latter, give it a complete refurbishment, then use it.


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## Richard T (18 Jul 2012)

To have it back to being a good working saw (handle apart) it's going to have to be jointed then re cut. This is inevitably going to be more than two teeth worth of depth from the longest tooth it has at the moment. 
If you put a straight edge along the length, taking in the lowest place needed to joint to, then imagine new teeth cut from there ... I guess it will leave a very slim saw indeed. 
The alternative would be to partially joint it and leave low spots - hopefully improving with subsequent sharpening.

I know how you feel Jim, its a piece of history all right but has it done all it's going to do as a saw? 

I'd be very interested to know what Pedder thinks. If he is of the same mind as me, talk to Bill.


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## Racers (18 Jul 2012)

Hi, Jim

Its a very nice saw, but its to far gone to put back as a worker, I don't think you will have any blade depth left under the handle after a joint and sharpen.

I bought an old saw with even less blade from a car boot, it has file marks on the bottom of the handle from sharpening.
But it has a very heavy brass back just right for a Carter.

Pete


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## Teckel (18 Jul 2012)

Interesting post there jimi. I would be with rogerp and give it a full refurb.


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## Harbo (18 Jul 2012)

I can only view it on my iPhone at the mo.
I think refurbishing really depends on how bad the pitting is - you may finish up with very little steel left?
If the blade is recoverable then I think a new handle will be required but keep the old one for historic reasons?
Not an easy choice?

Rod


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## stoatyboy (18 Jul 2012)

My vote:

do the teeth leave the handle

so what if it's got a short depth of cut - use it for short depth of cut cuts!

if you can't cut with it then it's not a tool and if you've started collecting non tool tools then I am afraid you are so far down the slope then you are totally off piste!

my 2p endeth here


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## MickCheese (18 Jul 2012)

I would repair the handle, it just does not look right and to me looks are important.

I would then make it work, as that is what it was always intended for, saws for looking at are hung in pubs!

Mick


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Jul 2012)

I'd vote for refurbishment and use as well. There are better examples about for duty as 'stuffed and mounted' artifacts in museums, and anyway, tools were made for using, not as ornaments.

The blade, if it's straight, won't need much cleaning. I've got an old 14" 11tpi Drabble and Sanderson tenon saw that I recut to rip. The blade is almost black with oxidation, and has odd patches of pitting too, but it still cuts like a knife through butter.

That one might be better as a cross-cut - it hasn't the blade depth for a rip tenon saw, but would make an excellent carcase saw.

Edit to add - the untoothed stub of blade at the heel just below the handle suggests that the saw hasn't been sharpened that often. I suspect that may indicate the original blade depth. If so, it may have been made as a shallow-depth carcase or sash saw.


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## AndyT (18 Jul 2012)

Not an easy question. 

When I first saw pictures of Bill Carter's planes, my reaction was shock at someone destroying interesting old saws - then I realised how exquisite the planes were! You've shown us plenty of evidence that you could restore the handle, and get the teeth re-cut to make a good working saw. But it would be a saw with limitations - the depth of cut - and you already have a fine, historic, working saw for the same sort of tasks.

To the rest of the world, this saw was just something from "I.HITEC, BACK, HOWEN?LONDON." and not worth a tenner, even with three perfect handle screwdrivers thrown in. You saw the value differently - *but you can't save all the old saws that other people think are junk.*

Also, I'm sure you have the skills to follow Bill's instructions and make a beautiful little mitre plane. You do need another plane now, don't you? That tool chest won't fill itself!!


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## Scouse (18 Jul 2012)

jimi43":1fojjvgg said:


> It's simply too beautiful and crying out for me to put it back to work.



Is this a sign from your subconscious answering your own question for you? :wink: 

For my twopennuth, your previous handle repairs have been unqualified successes, so that's one less thing to worry about. As for the teeth, well it seems a shame not to use it...

El.

ps. as I submitted this, Andy's post popped up first and now I don't know! This tool stuff isn't easy!


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## jimi43 (18 Jul 2012)

As usual...a wide selection of very intelligent reasoning....each being logical but no "correct" definitive conclusion.

So...reading through to summarise:

RogerP - Fix it all, restore it and use it. And in answer to your question..I always want a working tool before a museum piece. If I think..."that belongs in a museum" then I don't buy things...I leave it up to curators. 8) 

RichardT - A more pragmatic approach as is your wont Richard. Mixed with underlying sentiment too! :wink: I had indeed intended to contact Pedder...in fact...I was just going to ask his view on the steel and the chances of restoration before I embarked on this journey. Then I thought...no...let our resident tool experts give their views first....add all the other elements...then link Pedder to the thread. I think this was the right approach...SO....Pedder? What do you think my friend? If anything other than "chuck the steel in the bin"...is the view...the restoration goes ahead.

Pete....you devil you! I know you want to see that mitre plane!! :mrgreen: I think that this saw has only had one sharpening....as CC says...the trailing plain steel shows the original line. Indeed I have seen a few pictures of this short depth carcass saw tapered shallow design...I find it most attractive. Don't worry mate..I will get a donor for the BC mitre...it just isn't this one (maybe!  )

Teckel - Another fix it all vote...thanks mate

Rod - The steel is as good if not better than my Sorby. The result from Pedder on that one is already been proven so I think it would be ok. Only Pedder can tell though. I'm not one for replacing handles and putting the old ones on shelves though. In a way, the history and repairs are not incompatible and a sympathetic repair would be part of the life of the tool and totally acceptable. But that's just my view. More on this later.

SB....agree totally on the "not a tool" logic...absolutely! And to a point I agree about the handle..if it were just a functional item. But for me...all tools that I use don't just have to perform beautifully...they have to have that mojo...the history...the beauty...the style. I hope you understand why I could never really leave that handle....it's not just in me to do that.  

Mick - interesting isn't it that two adjacent posts on the handle should be diametrically opposite. Not contradictory but just opposite views entirely. As you can see above from my comments, I'm with you on this one.

CC - As I mentioned above, I concur that this saw was originally made to be shallow, you noticed the flat at the rear too. I'd be interested to learn why it is that this depth is a benefit and in what circumstance. Anyone want to give us a tutorial? So...another vote for refurb and use.

AndyT - AH...yes difficult decision indeed but now not so. The excellent opinions of our fellow brethren on here once again makes up my mind. As for saw depth...see above...I think that it is quite new as far as depth is concerned. What Bill does with plane backs shocked me also...but he probably sources donor brass as I have...and reading through Bill's website...I doubt if vandalism would be one of his traits. Rather, I think he is making something marvellous from something already in twilight years. As you have since discovered...this has an interesting effect. A user of the plane is a carrier of the history of the saw! Rather like a gravestone pays homage to the life of a famous person or loved one.
As to the fact that I already have Robert...Andy...Andy...Andy...how many smoothers have you got! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 
I will enlighten you on my plans in the summary below! :wink: 

Scouse - 



> Is this a sign from your subconscious answering your own question for you? :wink:



Oooops! Busted! :mrgreen: 

And that...leads me nicely into my conclusion:

I think I will get Pedder's opinion on restorability of the steel....If that is a "hearty YES"...then I will send it for his excellent touch. Following that I will restore the horn...either before, or if I have the patience...after he does the teeth.

If the horn needs restoration, I will select a piece of beech to match (not a simple task that!)...then longitudinally slot it into the original stock in one sliding dovetail. This will leave a strong and interesting repair...hopefully the subject of comment in 2099! 8) 

If Pedder thinks (as some do here)...that the steel is not usable...because of pitting or we are totally wrong about the original depth...and the saw will be sharp but not fit for sawing...then I won't restore the handle...I will break it down and make it into a mitre plane.

I think this encompasses all the above views...my view...and my subliminal intention as Scouse so wisely observed!  

So...it's over to Pedder! Pedder!? :?: 

Jim


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## Racers (18 Jul 2012)

Hi, Jim

Here is mine,






Its had more sharpenings than yours,






Made by, mmmm difficult to make out,






Bit better,






Better still,






Drabble and Saunderson London, any one have any info on D&S?

And do you think Pedder can do any thing with it :wink: 

Pete


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## jimi43 (18 Jul 2012)

Hi Pete

Nice saw indeed and as you say...shallow steel with the same plain bit on the tail end.

There is another Hill one just like mine on Best Thing Saws

If you look further down the page you can click to a larger picture.

They only wanted $59 for it but it did have a kink in the steel so I think that one might have proven quite difficult to sort out. Mine is as straight as a die...something I think adds to the case for restoration.

I think only Pedder can say if Pedder can restore yours...as with mine.

I have PMd him to ask him to visit the thread and comment.

Just a reminder of his skills with the Sorby.....






Impressive indeed eh!? 8) 

Jim


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## richarnold (18 Jul 2012)

Hi Jim. That's a lovely saw. It has set me thinking about one of my own saws. This is about 11 inches in length from memory, so i suppose you would call it a carcass saw, but i have always wondered about it's depth. I was never sure if it had been sharpened a lot, or if it was just shallow from the word go. having seen yours it made me think about the uncut section under the handle. What do you think?. By the way the saw is a bit of a cross over like yours. It's stamped by William Squire on one side, and then his successor, John Peters on the other side.


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Jul 2012)

In 'Turning and Mechanical Manipulation' Volume II (pub. 1847), Charles Holtzappfel gives the following information in 'Table of the Dimensions of Rectilinear Saws' (uses a lot of Big Words does Mr H.) on page 699:

Parallel Saws with Backs:

Tenon Saw; length of blade, 16 to 20 inches, width of blade 3 1/4 to 4 inches.

Sash Saw; length 14 to 16 in., width 2 1/2 to 3 1/4 in.

Carcase Saw; length 10 to 14 in., width 2 to 2 1/2 in.

Dovetail Saw; length 6 to 10 in., width 1 1/2 to 2 in.


I reckon that all of Jimi's, Pete's and Richard's saws were made as Carcase Saws. It also means that the common or garden 12" tenon saw (with a blade depth of about 3 to 3 1/2 inches) is a more modern development.


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## jimi43 (18 Jul 2012)

Hi Richard

What a lovely saw you have too...I am so glad this thread is bringing the added bonus of some wonderful examples of early 19thC designs.

I was reading up about carcass saws...and I freely admit I am by no means an expert on this subject....but it seems that there are certain designs that have a very shallow blade...the Gramercy version has a similar shallow profile which if I remember correctly has a 2 1/2" usable surface.

There are simply too many examples of these saws which are virtually the same for them all to be the residual stub of many decades of sharpening...and the narrower toe examples are also easy to find...which leads me to believe they are designed like this, presumably for better balance.

I would love someone who really knows to advise.

EDIT SINCE CC's POST: That just about proves it....if Mr Holtzapffel says so...it has to be true! 8) 

Jim


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Jul 2012)

Further reading of Mr Holtzappfel's mighty tome reveals the following; Carcase saws were made with about 12 ppi, of 23 gage (Mr H's spelling) plate, and having either crosscut or rip tooth profile. Their use was to seperate the top and bottom of six-piece glued-up boxes or carcases.


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## Richard T (18 Jul 2012)

I stand educated and corrected. If these saws were designed to be so shallow - go for it. 

I don't think the pitting is too bad is it?


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## jimi43 (18 Jul 2012)

Cheshirechappie":2vlypmz4 said:


> Further reading of Mr Holtzappfel's mighty tome reveals the following; Carcase saws were made with about 12 ppi, of 23 gage (Mr H's spelling) plate, and having either crosscut or rip tooth profile. Their use was to seperate the top and bottom of six-piece glued-up boxes or carcases.



So that just about nails it then CC....12tpi (this one is 11 and a bit!)....and I need to check the dimension of steel gauge translated into inches or mm...so that I can check the thickness.

What amazes me is that one little cheap "basket case"....can lead to such research. Great stuff!! =D> 

Jimi


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## jimi43 (18 Jul 2012)

Richard T":1gttf2ns said:


> I stand educated and corrected. If these saws were designed to be so shallow - go for it.
> 
> I don't think the pitting is too bad is it?



No, its fairly ok Richard...well for the age anyway! The patina is the standard beautiful dark grey and there is the occasional pitting but not too close to the cutting edge.

Jim


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## Harbo (19 Jul 2012)

Saws have certainly got smaller over the years - Gramercy then Wenzloff Carcase saws with their D/T versions below:







Ian of Tuffsaws used to sharpen saws - here's some clean up work I did on my Grandfather's saw (Leeds is my home town)


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## Cheshirechappie (19 Jul 2012)

Rod - that is a serious battery of very fine saws! I must admit that your Grandfather's is my personal favourite of those (Tyzack Non-Pareil, I think, if the little elephant is anything to go by). There's something a bit special about using a fine quality inherited tool.

On the subject of steel gauges (or gages) - things get a bit complicated. There was no British Standard Institution until about 1900, so before that (and indeed for some time after) several trade and local standards were used. According to Machinery's Handbook, 11th edition of 1942, the Birmingham Gauge legalised in 1914 was used for iron and steel sheets and hoops, but differed from the older Birmingham Guage or Stub's Iron Wire Gauge. The figure quoted for the older 'Birmingham or Stub's Iron Wire Gauge' number of 23 is 0.025".

I think there's scope for further research on historical steel sheet 'standard' thicknesses - any other contributions gratefully received!


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## jimi43 (19 Jul 2012)

Rod...there are times when I can be so green with envy...that I could disappear against a bush!

Stunning saws indeed mate...and thanks for the education.

CC...thanks also for your research...I have to get a micrometer on the plate on the Hill....interesting indeed.

Ok....now...my patience being what it is and my confidence in Pedder's ability being very high...I decided not to wait but fix that horn...as the imbalance was doing my head in! 

So...once again a few WIP pictures.

I gave up on the idea of the dovetail. That was silly! Only one shot at it and no going back...I didn't want to hack anything more than I had to out of what was left of the old handle.

So...rule no.1 of repairing using a butt joint...flatten the stock.....






The disc sander is perfect for this as long as the saw was supported horizontally it was easy to sand the stub down....






...this left a nice flat surface to mate the new piece to....






Just a little more to come off the right side as you can see.

Ages ago when I was trading antiques...I saw on Freecycle a post offering a "commode". Thinking this would be an antique one...I asked for it...was successful and picked it up.

To my horror it was one of those beech framed ones with a plastic potty in it....but I didn't have the heart not to take it so I threw away the plastic bit in the nearest bin and chopped up the wood....some nice beech indeed was revealed. This is a leg:






Not quite as old as the saw but nice all the same...and after a quick skim with the old panel plane...perfectly flat.

I then cut a piece of with the grain going in the right direction and tested it against the handle:






A perfect mating....






I always use a lot more stock that I need...I once used a tiny bit too little and now go a bit over the top... :mrgreen: 






Titebond Original is the glue that I have always used for these joints...it really works for me and it stronger than the wood under tests that I have done on scrap stock with a hammer. It split the wood.

This applies even to a butt joint..which doesn't have any physical lock like a dovetail.

Careful clamping is a must with these old handles..I don't want to bruise the old wood...






Luckily the bottom curves join to form a nice stable lock....and add a pad with duct tape and cotton wool helps protect the wood further.

Ages ago at a bootfair I picked up what I thought was a set of very old celluloid French curves...






Digging them out of the drawer...I discovered that they matched the shapes on the handle perfectly!!!






This one has a very old No.4 stamped on it....and I wonder if these were a set actually used by a saw maker. A bit of a coincidence if not!

From a Howel template on the Net....I discovered that the other way round matched the top horn...brilliant! I can use it as a guide!






I made a couple of pencil marks to compare to the template so that I got the right one and then ran it through the Burgess with the Tuffsaw blade which made swift work of the excess...






....but tracked the line perfectly..with a little bit over to make adjustments as I finish the stock with rasps and shaves...






Not a bad profile....






The internal curve needs a bit of adjustment to line up in a nice curve with the handle...






....constantly checking against the template. Note at this stage the extreme of the old handle is taped up to protect the finish as much as possible.






That's better!

A number of layers of stain are used to try to lay a foundation that will match the original when polish is added and blended in...






This is locked in with a thin layer of button polish and this helps blend the two parts.

Once dry...000 wire wool is used to blend the finish...and a single layer of button polish is used over the whole handle.






And the other side....






Once this has hardened off...I will take the shine off the whole thing and distress it further to match...but for now...






I'm quite pleased with the outcome and a bit of my wax formula will later tone everything down to original.

Now all I need is to get the blade fixed! :wink: 

Jim


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## Racers (20 Jul 2012)

Hi, Jim

Nicly done, as usual =D> =D> =D> 


Pete


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## Harbo (20 Jul 2012)

Nice job Jim - I love those horns!

I got a bit carried away with the saws I picked them up in NYC a few years back - the Gramercys as kits.

CC - the saw is a Tyzack marketed by Frederick Willey, Corn Exchange, Leeds in the late 1800's. I also have a Willey Handsaw. My family come from Leeds and it may have belonged to my Great Grandfather who was a Wheelwright? 

Rod


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## AndyT (20 Jul 2012)

Lovely looking job again there Jim, and a useful reference for anyone else too.
What a bit of luck with those celluloid curves! Total justification for buying odd things just in case they come in useful - if anyone decided in advance that they wanted to buy a set of saw handle templates, I think they'd be looking for a very long time!

The challenge is now back on though, for you to find a saw with a nice brass back which is beyond the redemptive powers of Corrodip, Pedder and your special wax formula!


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## Teckel (20 Jul 2012)

Harbo":17pw7g2j said:


> Saws have certainly got smaller over the years - Gramercy then Wenzloff Carcase saws with their D/T versions below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have just had dry sex!!


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## Teckel (20 Jul 2012)

Jimi That will be a fine saw that you will end up with once pedder is finished. I look forward to seeing it.


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## Scouse (20 Jul 2012)

Brilliant job again Jim, superb results and a clear WIP.

Posts like that should be in a sticky thread of their own for easy future reference, IMHO. 8)


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## Cheshirechappie (20 Jul 2012)

Jimi - that looks a LOT better. The handle looks balanced and comfortable now; it looked downright uncomfortable to use with the top horn missing. Just needs a quick trip to The Dentist now. I'd try it without doing too much blade-cleaning - I don't think the current patina will affect it's performance adversely at all, if my Drabble and Sanderson is anything to go by.

Speaking of D&S, Pete was asking if anybody knew anything about them. I've not been able to find much, but from a perusal of www.backsaw.net I have learned the following; the first reference to a Benjamin Drabble of 29, Long Croft, Sheffield (saw manufacturer) is in 1822. Drabble and Sanderson of Ebenezer Works, 37 Russell Street, Sheffield (steel refiners, saw, file, and calico web manufacturers) are listed in 1841. There are several trade directory entries through the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the last being for Drabble and Sanderson Ltd, Elect Works, Savile St East (saw manufacturers) in 1925. So it seems the firm had a long life - formed before 1841 and lasting until at least 1925.

Now - reference to 'London' on Pete's saw back. I think this refers not to the geographical location, but to a saw quality grade. Reference is made in the book, 'The Tool Chest of Benjamin Seaton' to there being four (later five) grades of saw made in Sheffield, namely Common steel, German Steel, Cast steel and London Spring steel. The latter were of the best grade of crucible cast steel, tempered to a spring temper, hammered, ground and glazed (polished). The practice of grading so was fairly new in Benjamin Seaton's time, apparently; but carried currency for at least the first half of the 19th century and possibly longer. So 'London' in this case means 'premium quality', not 'made in London'.


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## adidat (20 Jul 2012)

very impressive Jim, do you own any clothes in colours other than yellow?? :lol:

strange that between us we own 4 of these beauties, that have been scattered nation wide.

how many makers would there have been in the factory that made these?

adidat


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## jimi43 (21 Jul 2012)

Cheers guys!

Rod...that Frederick Willey is lovely...and of course...the modern ones are sublime but I think I'll stick to collecting old ones...with possibly one exception! :wink: 

Yes Andy...I do now have the same problem as before...no brass back which is interesting enough to showcase as stamps but destroyed enough as a saw to be a donor...will keep searching!

I did a bit of distressing today...it is easier to do this in the sunshine as you can see what you're doing that way!

The key to distressing is to camouflage the join by emulating the wear and damage, grot and crud of the surrounding original wood.






Notice the palm grip and the front of the handle near the back join are both darkened over the centuries and other areas where contact is made by the hand are worn light....






You can clearly see the shape of the hand as it sits when in use.

To disguise the line of the join the darker you can get the wood either side (assuming the join is accurately mated)...the easier it is to make it disappear. And fortunately the join was in the area where one would expect darkened staining.

Couple with with some wear marks showing through to the lighter wood along the edge of the horn and you end up with a result which hides the repair to the best effect.

Of course...age is the best healer and soon, with use, the repair will disappear into the background.






Just a passing word about cleaning brass and particularly stamps and marks....the only real way to clean out the area with the minimum disruption to the patina is with a toothbrush and soapy water.






The original stamp was full of decades of impacted grime...but now it's beautifully legible (although there is a bit left under the I.HILL I see!)....and the patina is mostly surviving and will oxidise back to match the rest of the back in no time at all.

And now we can clearly see the little dot...is in fact a sun with little rays inside! Wonderful!

And no Chris...I only have yellow clothes...ALL Smurfs do ya know!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jimi


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## pedder (21 Jul 2012)

Hi Jim, 

I was offline for two weeks and missed this thread. Just send me the saw, I will try my best. Or replace the blade if I fail.

Great job on the repair!

Cheers 
Pedder


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## jimi43 (21 Jul 2012)

pedder":ikj7bno2 said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I was offline for two weeks and missed this thread. Just send me the saw, I will try my best. Or replace the blade if I fail.
> 
> ...



Hi Pedder...

I thought you must have been away for a while....

Thanks for the offer...I know how much you enjoyed Robert but this one "Harry" is quite cute too!

I have PMd you back and will pop it in the post at the earliest opportunity....

Cheers and thanks again

Jimi


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## jimi43 (29 Jul 2012)

Well, things have not stood still since I last posted!

Some good news and some bad news....

Harry was sent to Germany this week for some remedial surgery by the excellent hand of our friend here...Pedder of Two Lawyers Toolsworks and for those of you who don't know them....CLICK HERE

Firstly...the steel after almost 200 years has finally given up to fatigue...and is too brittle to set even if it could be resharpened.






Pedder did a fantastic job of preserving the old saw screws...which if you all remember were well embedded in the wood...a result of the over-tightening needed to secure the handle over the years after the holes in the old steel fractured and perished.






You can see in the next picture how terminal the corrosion has become...water ingression at the handle joint.....






The holes had also elongated quite extensively over the decades...






I had left Pedder free reign to do whatever he felt necessary and if he felt that a new set of teeth were needed now to preserve the great name...so be it.

I would rather one new great name be responsible many years after another great name made the saw to restore the tool to what a tool does best...work with wood and not in a museum!

It's not a rare maker in the great scheme of things....it still has its pedigree...and I now have a new tenon saw...by two of the great makers of fine saws...many many moons apart.

Let me introduce you to "HARRIETTE!"






I am sure that both the LATE Mr Hill....maker of the LATE Mr HOWELL's saws would smile a wry smile for this fine saw to preserved in such a way by probably the finest makers of saws of our time!

Enjoy.....











I would like to say a HUGE thank you to my dear friend Pedder....a wonderful tenon saw...which I can indeed use to crosscut hardwoods too!

Cheers mate!!

=D> =D> =D> 

Jimi


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## Richard T (29 Jul 2012)

Good grief Jim - and Pedder - that's fantastic. Using an old saw to make ..... a saw! Makes a nice change  It will have to wait double the time for it's Carter treatment. 
What a great resurrection. =D>


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## pedder (30 Jul 2012)

Hi Pete, 

I was a little sorry, I couldn't save the old plate, but when I test set the saw, the teeth flew away. 
This blade seems to be a little small, too, but it is only 0.5mm thick so deeper was no option.

I Like the way she cuts now. At 11 tpi she's fast and smooth. 

Why "she" in German saws are femal only handsaws are (male) part of animals (fox tails Fuchsschwanz). 
So it has become a running gag between Jim and me. 

Cheers 
Pedder


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## DTR (30 Jul 2012)

Old meets new, the best of both worlds. Fantastic =D>


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## bugbear (31 Jul 2012)

jimi43":2c2mhmeo said:


> Just a passing word about cleaning brass and particularly stamps and marks....the only real way to clean out the area with the minimum disruption to the patina is with a toothbrush and soapy water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm fairly sure that most solvents wouldn't remove patina - I'd have tried meths and/or white spirit to get the grot out of "HILL", again on a tooth brush (suede brush at the max)

BugBear


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## MickCheese (31 Jul 2012)

This looks fantastic. I think you have done the right thing, no good to man nor beast if it doesn't cut wood.

You have got me thinking now, I have an old brass back tenon saw with a bent blade, I wonder if I could replace it?

Nothing to lose I suppose.

Well done Jim and Pedder.

Mick


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## jimi43 (31 Jul 2012)

Yes Richard...rather a strange thing to do using an old saw to make a saw but if you equate old planes whose irons eventually wear out and need replacing with the concept of this saw finally needing a new bite...there is no real difference.

I do have another candidate for the "Carter" treatment...but that thread will have to wait a bit... 8) :wink: 

Pedder and I do have this running joke about naming "Old Ladies" as he calls them...it started with my Robert Sorby "Robert"....which he calls "Roberta"....

It's fairly cut and dry (oops!)....in Europe where things have gender...but with our neutral naming of inanimate objects...it really becomes a bit of a mystery! The gag continues! :mrgreen: 

Harriette is still winging its way back to England from our Teutonic Saw Surgeon.. BB but when I get it back I will certainly try meths and my toothbrush...I actually missed that little bit and it wasn't until I saw the hi-res photo that I noticed it.

It is a different solution Mick...one I am warming to by the day. Imagine...by the time the steel needs replacing the rest will be about 400 years old....and still a working tool....I wonder how many other saws will exist still sporting the ancient toolmaker's name?

More photos and tests when Harriette lands!

Jim (and Pedder!)


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## Cheshirechappie (31 Jul 2012)

That looks to be a very satisfactory solution to the problem, and one that will give the best of two worlds - 19th century handle design and a nice, heavy brass back with modern blade steel quality (and a set of very even teeth - my compliments to The Dentist!). It shows that repair of older saws is not just possible, but practical.

I'll speculate a bit about blade steel from the mid 19th century, based on what Pedder's photographs show us. Quality control was difficult in those days because the equipment we have now to measure temperatures during heat treatment was not available, and the chemical analysis of steel samples was a slower affair - no mass spectrometers available in the steelworks of the day. Maybe this blade has fractured by the sawscrew holes, and at the teeth on setting, because the metal isn't quite as tempered as it should be; in other words, it's been hardened right out, but not tempered to a full spring temper. It's entirely possible that the teeth were originally not set at all (the carcase and dovetail saws in the Seaton chest are recorded as having no measurable set); as they are intended for relatively shallow cuts, a wide kerf is not so necessary as for a full tenon saw or handsaw. Fatigue cracks will happen sooner in harder steels. Just a theory, but plausible, I think.

It will be fun to hear how you get on with Harriette, Jimi. Do please let us know!


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## Cheshirechappie (31 Jul 2012)

MickCheese":2yrgi0sg said:


> This looks fantastic. I think you have done the right thing, no good to man nor beast if it doesn't cut wood.
> 
> You have got me thinking now, I have an old brass back tenon saw with a bent blade, I wonder if I could replace it?
> 
> ...



Mick - I suspect that repair is possible. If you strip the saw down as Pedder's photos above, straightening the existing blade is a distinct possibility. There's a thread on the Hand Tools section on 'Straightening a Bent Sawblade' in which I report some success I had with a panel saw. It might be worth a shot - as you say, nothing to lose!


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## jimi43 (8 Aug 2012)

My elation today was tempered quite a bit by the recent news about Klaus' allergic reaction to wood but ALFIE and I were still proud enough to receive "HARRIETTE" back from the doctor's in one piece along with a little surprise..







Yup....a lovely little piece of the German toolmaker's art...a little ULMIA smoother...






ALFIE was most intrigued by this but he had to check out to see if anything from Alasace had snuck in through border control without him noticing!

ALFIE is not the only thing with fine new teeth either!....






"Harriette"...the fine old girl from the Hill/Howell stable is sporting some lovely new knashers! And she looks so fine with them too...






I know now that I made the right decision here...I never doubted Pedder's ability but the decision to bite the bullet and give this old gal another couple of hundred years of life was difficult.






I'm pretty sure I didn't hear any rumblings and rollings from the Hill/Howell graves....I know for sure now they are smiling!

More later on how she cuts along with a review of this lovely little pressie....






...But that's another day....and another thread!

Thanks Pedder my friend...I am "well chuffed" as they say north of Watford! :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## AndyT (8 Aug 2012)

Ahah! That's the picture I've been looking for. Way back here Jim you were showing us a lovely little smoothing plane you had made. In doing so, you accidentally invented what you called the 'camwedge' - 






At the time, I was thinking that I had seen something a bit like it on a plane somewhere, but I couldn't track down where it was. 

Does this one work in the same sort of way?






If it does, it's only proof that most of the good ideas are now centuries old, and I certainly don't mean to detract from your ingenuity or the quality of workmanship on that little smoother - I'm just interested how invention can go round in a circle like this!


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## pedder (8 Aug 2012)

Hi Jim, 

I'm glade she made it! Did you test her? Fast Old ladie!

The palnes is not a smoother, but a kind of german jack plane. Schlichthobel is the term. 
Low cutting angle, no chipbreaker, small blade for more power. Use after the scrub.

Thanks a lot for all things in the last year!

Cheers 
Pedder


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## jimi43 (8 Aug 2012)

Ah yes Andy...I have taken Pedder's present apart and you are partially correct. The bar does rotate to come level with the wooden wedge and conform exactly to the correct angle...but then again...so do some of the early infills...the cupid's bow wedges on some of these old originals also rotates on a cross-pin to match the wedge action.

On the Japanese "camwedge" system the cross-member is the wedge and locks by reverse rotation and since it is asymmetrical it locks tighter when pressure is put on the front of the iron by the cutting action. That was in fact the uniqueness....as far as I can tell I have not see a "wedge-less" mechanism.

Pedder...Harriette is beautiful...I literally received it with just enough time to photograph it with the grand master ALFIE before I needed to go out for lunch with my mother so it hasn't been christened yet!

Don't worry...once I get my glad rags off...I shall be out there in the cave sawing up half the neighbourhood!

I really must get on with that chest now...to ensure that these beauties are well protected....at the moment they are inside...away from moisture, cold, ALFIE....woodworm...or anything which may prematurely shorten their lives!

Thanks for correcting me on the plane...I will be researching this quite a bit shortly too. The iron has not seen a stone I beileve? It looks new! Fascinating tool which I will cherish believe me...and yet another notch in my "woodie" slope!

Thank you!

Jim


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## jimi43 (8 Aug 2012)

UPDATE...and a bit predictable really...how it cuts... :mrgreen: 






....brilliant!

As Pedder has said...REALLY fast!

I wasn't trying too hard to keep to the lines in this shot...so the test is a bit out...but far better than any saw I have used so far to make joints...






This is a lovely lovely saw....and now has history and utility...a magic combination indeed!

Oh...and ALFIE ate the off-cut! :mrgreen: 

Jim


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