# Core tool kit



## Jacob (5 Nov 2014)

Just having a look at Rob's efforts over there.
All arguable of course but the one thing conspicuously wrong is the choice of _wheel_ marking gauge. These are inferior to the trad wooden gauge, and 10 to 20 times the price. :shock: And you need to have several on hand eventually. 
Just another modern fashion from Veritas, popular with tool sellers but best ignored.


----------



## Noggsy (5 Nov 2014)

Unless you're infallible Jacob, I would argue that very little is inarguable. I've got a wheel marking gauge and, for me, it gives far better (more consistent) results than my wooden ones. That's not to say that the wooden ones aren't excellent tools, they just suit me less.


----------



## Newbie_Neil (5 Nov 2014)

Hi Noggsy,



Noggsy":3ki88k2n said:


> I've got a wheel marking gauge and, for me, it gives far better (more consistent) results than my wooden ones.



How do you find it in oak?

Thanks,
Neil


----------



## RogerBoyle (5 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2o79jymx said:


> Just having a look at Rob's efforts over there.
> All arguable of course but the one thing conspicuously wrong is the choice of _wheel_ marking gauge. These are inferior to the trad wooden gauge, and 10 to 20 times the price. :shock: And you need to have several on hand eventually.
> Just another modern fashion from Veritas, popular with tool sellers but best ignored.



Who really cares what is posted on another forum :duno: 
If you care that much why not reply on the other forum :twisted:


----------



## Jacob (5 Nov 2014)

Newbie_Neil":323pobfn said:


> Hi Noggsy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The old woodies are infallible on oak or anything else. 
The selling point of the metal ones seems to be around trivial problems with the wooden sort which anybody might encounter on first use. Given half an hour of practice and these problems disappear forever. But you would never know that if you have gone for an expensive steel one instead, or spent several hours pointlessly modifying one, as is suggested in some quarters.


----------



## Noggsy (5 Nov 2014)

Neil, I find it crisp and easy to use in oak.


----------



## Jacob (5 Nov 2014)

RogerBoyle":27z3tf3u said:


> ....
> Who really cares what is posted on another forum :duno:
> If you care that much why not reply on the other forum :twisted:


I think you have to be a mod over there, before you can post. Seems to be all chiefs (including Axminster tool reps :roll: ) and no indians.


----------



## Jacob (5 Nov 2014)

:lol: And he has forgotten the double sided oilstone!
Perhaps instead he will include an Axminster brochure listing all the crazy sharpening options. Get them young and you've got them for life.


----------



## Doug B (5 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2j16qexg said:


> I think you have to be a mod over there, before you can post. Seems to be all chiefs (including Axminster tool reps :roll: ) and no indians.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

You noticed that as well :roll:


----------



## Cheshirechappie (5 Nov 2014)

The question of a what should be in a core tool kit, if it's addressed in the right spirit, is quite a good talking point. In common with many open questions, there's no 'right' answer, of course, but batting ideas around could be fun!

I suspect for most of us, the question was rather bypassed by circumstance. We had a few tools, added a few more because we found by experience that we needed them or because we came across them on our travels, and worked from there. My semi-starting point was the list Charles Hayward put together in 'Teach Yourself Carpentry', about the only woodwork book which resided on my father's bookshelves, but with modifications because technology had moved on since the book was written, or because Texas Homecare had never heard of some of them! Discovering the finer tool sellers came later, with the purchase of my first woodwork mag in W H Smith's.

Most of us, I suspect, have accumulated tools we thought we might need, but eventually found we didn't. I've got a lovely little small scraper plane bought in a fit of enthusiasm when Lie-Nielsen first produced them. It sits virtually unused to this day. If a card scraper won't do it, the number 80 does. Then there's the urge that overtakes some to have 'one of everything' - every Bailey bench plane from 2 to 8, including the halves. A number 1 too, if possible! Some of us stop at a couple of smoothers, a jointer and a jack. Mind you, I'm not saying how many chisels have found me!

Eventually, we find we have the tools we need, and subsequent acquisitions are for interest or because we just couldn't pass up opportunities. So, whilst I can see the point of apprentice tool lists for Tech. Colleges or similar formal courses, for most of us amateurs they're something we find out rather late in the day, after we assembled the beginnings of a kit!


----------



## woodbrains (5 Nov 2014)

Hello,

Wheel marking gauges are inferior to traditional wooden ones, eh? Wheel gauges hold their settings well, mark with, across and in end grain equally crisply, are not affected by seasonal movement (heads don't become wobbly on the shaft, or too stiff to move when it's raining out!) and as mentioned above, _by their detractor _were devised to solve the issues encounterd with wooden gauges, which they succeed in doing. Where does the inferiority lie exactly? If by inferior, it is meant price, then there are many cheap wheel gauges and expensive wooden ones, if one shops around. Pin type gauges can be a PITA and knife gauges are superior in any event, made of wood or whatever. A line marked with a pin gauge is double bevelled and for accurate work, a no no. They need modification by making the pin effectively into a knife edge, which is fine, but pin gauges without modification can be useless.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (5 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":1l52v18r said:


> ,,, Wheel gauges hold their settings well, mark with, across and in end grain equally crisply,


so do pin gauges if you use them properly


> are not affected by seasonal movement (heads don't become wobbly on the shaft, or too stiff to move when it's raining out!)


One usually adjusts them more frequently than the rate of change of seasons! If loose - tighten the screw (surprised you didn't know that Mike - what did you think the screw was for?). If tight, sand off the shaft as necessary. Only needs doing once and it'll work for life.


> ...Pin type gauges can be a PITA and knife gauges are superior in any event, ....


PITA if you don't know how to use them, which is my point. 
Knife gauges aren't "superior" particularly but are suited for when a cut line is needed. The "double" bevel is so tiny that it it only matters to those who talk in "thous" i.e. not woodworkers


> ..pin gauges without modification can be useless..


nonsense, or at least, only in unpracticed hands. How _did_ people manage before the new woodwork came along? :lol: :lol:


----------



## John15 (5 Nov 2014)

I don't think a tape and a couple of steel rules are on the list

John


----------



## Newbie_Neil (5 Nov 2014)

Noggsy":3vk962tg said:


> Neil, I find it crisp and easy to use in oak.



I'd been told that they didn't work well in oak. :lol: 

Thanks,
Neil


----------



## woodbrains (5 Nov 2014)

Jacob":1dirwus3 said:


> woodbrains":1dirwus3 said:
> 
> 
> > ,,, Wheel gauges hold their settings well, mark with, across and in end grain equally crisply,
> ...



This is all very interesting, I don't think. The question I asked is where are, as you contend, wheel gauges inferior? They work, don't produce double bevels and don't need their shafts sandpapering when they get tight in the humid months, only to have them become over loose when dry again. You can't say you have never had a wooden gauge get loose so the head, no matter how tight you crank the screw, wobbles and won't remain square to the shaft. In other words, won't hold a setting due to lack of parallelism. Wooden gauges also invariably have pins that protrude way too much. Of course they can be remedied, but of course, by the time the shaft is sandpapered, the pins are shortened and sharpened, (you might as well stone them into a knife edge whilst you're at it, so they actually cut across the grain rather than tear the heck out of it) then you can hardly claim the trad wooden ones are better than the wheel gauges, where none of this
Is has to be done. I repeat, wheel gauges work, where are they inferior to wooden pin gauges?

Mike.


----------



## matt_southward (5 Nov 2014)

I have to admit that I like my wheel gauges, and have never really liked ordinary wooden ones. That's possibly a question of quality as the only wooden ones I've used have been cheap and a bit coarse. My experience was that they did wobble a bit (no matter how tight you tightened them), and as soon as I tried a wheel gauge I was sold - I find them much more intuitive (for me) to use.

However, Paul Sellers (who is a wooden gauge fan as I'm sure you know) did give a valid criticism of them a while back as he determined that the wheels are pretty fragile and prone to edge fracture, though I think I remember him saying that the fracture didn't impact on the use that much. A slightly thicker wheel might remedy that fault. Overall, I'm happy with mine, though they are quite pricey.


----------



## Vann (5 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":3q6hxr58 said:


> I repeat, wheel gauges work, where are they inferior to wooden pin gauges?


No point in arguing with the OP. He will NEVER admit it when he is wrong.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (5 Nov 2014)

Odd. The subject of the thread is 'Core Tool Kit', but it seems to be mostly an argument about marking gauges. I'm sure most tool kits have other tools in them, as well.

Oh Well. Whatever...

**Shuffles off, shaking head and muttering incoherently under breath.**


----------



## Jacob (5 Nov 2014)

> I repeat, wheel gauges work, where are they inferior to wooden pin gauges?


They don't do anything which the wooden gauges don't do, but cost 10 times as much, which makes them 10 times inferior.
PS and they aren't as convenient to use , which makes them even more inferior, say 20 times?


----------



## Jacob (5 Nov 2014)

Cheshirechappie":3my2gg5p said:


> Odd. The subject of the thread is 'Core Tool Kit', but it seems to be mostly an argument about marking gauges. I'm sure most tool kits have other tools in them, as well.
> 
> Oh Well. Whatever...
> 
> **Shuffles off, shaking head and muttering incoherently under breath.**


Well yes. What about the sharpening? :lol: 
Poor old Rob won't be able to commit himself to anything as it's too controversial. Not here it isn't in my part of the wood - its's dead simple, but out there its very contentious. :roll: 
I think Rob will sit on the fence and pretend it's not there and might go away.
If he's scratching his head and wondering - the answer is a double sided oil stone.
Same thing on the Axminster site where it says (oddly) "designed for carpenter's and mechanics" but in fact this should be the basic first bit of sharpening kit for all novice woodworkers and it would be a long time before they would need anything more.
Some so-called woodwork tool suppliers don't even stock them. :roll:


----------



## RogerM (6 Nov 2014)

I think if you're waiting for Rob to comment you'll have a long wait as he tells me that he doesn't frequent these parts any more. Probably best to ask any questions requiring his input "over there".


----------



## woodbrains (6 Nov 2014)

Hello,

The point of the thread over there, was to ascertain a core tool kit, which will be such a vital part of the tool kit, the best available should be bought. Not a 'it works with lots of fettling' or 'will do in a pinch till something more suitable is available' tool kit. A once only buy, forever kit, that will last and never disappoint. It was also aimed at a furniture making student, the likes that attend Barnsley or Parnham. Fine furniture done to a high level of precision in very expensive timber, where close is not good enough. The best tools will allow that student to reliably do this, wihthout worrying that the tools might be letting the side down a bit. So, someone who pays to go to these colleges will not be worried about a plane that cost £300 or a marking gauge for £30. Or chisels that have thick lands so dovetailing will be difficult (overcuts and brused corners totally out of the question) sharpening will be done to much higher levels of fineness that double sided India stones, and squares will be the best Moore and Wright or Starrett combination sets, not a bit of wood with a blade jammed into it. It is a 'best of' tool kit, not a DIY's under the stairs for emergency kit. It has to be contextualised; a core kit for a desert island survival would probably include an axe. A fine furniture makers kit definitely would not.

Incidentally, Stanley made wheel marking gauges with Sweetheart branding, ie pre war. Is that not trad enough? 

Mike.


----------



## Harbo (6 Nov 2014)

Well he can't cause he's not a member and if he keeps trying to ridicule them I cannot think he will be very welcome - he was banned from the original WH for causing trouble (and WUK and this one under another avatar). Sadly he cannot help himself?

Rod


----------



## Chip shop (6 Nov 2014)

This is an Ace thread. Here's my door hanging kit:


----------



## Jacob (6 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":vzb6fdkw said:


> .... It was also aimed at a furniture making student, the likes that attend Barnsley or Parnham. Fine furniture done to a high level of precision in very expensive timber, where close is not good enough. .....


It didn't say that at all. No mention of fantasy tools for fantasy woodwork.


----------



## Fat ferret (6 Nov 2014)

Never had wheel marking gauge cause I suspect it's an expensive gimmick and the cheap wooden ones work fine never had any problems with my shaft shrinking! :shock: 

Ok core tool kit for working on site cause I've come to get on with job and I will bring whatever other power tools once I know I need them.

Big claw hammer
Wee pin hammer
Hachet for skirting on uneven floor, stud work, making offcuts into kindling for customers wood burner...
Cross cut saw 7tpi spear and jackson with spare in car incase I run into a nail
Panel saw with a curve at the end to use as a floorboard saw, (shop mod)
Tenon saw.
Coping saw.
Chisels 1/4 to 1 1/4 firmers plus two bevel edged paring chisels with hoop handles fitted for cutting hinge mortices.
No 5 1/2 plane.
No 4 plane, all planes old records.
Block plane with choice of blade positions
Combi square (bacho)
Tape measure, stanley.
Pencils,
Dividers,
Levels 2' 4' and 6' stabila
Marking gauges.
Bevel.
Sparky screwdriver,
Rachet screw driver that takes cordless drill bit heads.
Cordless drill 10v bosch plus spare batery and charger
Drill bits with built in countersink, screwdriver bits all in baccy tin.
Flat bits with auger bits for special occasions.
Nail punch.
Round rasp,
Half round rasp.
File
Oiltone
WD40
G cramps.
Stapler.
Silicon gun.

All of which lives in a plywood chest 27" long which is a joy to carry upstairs! All common sizes of screw and nail plus glue and other bits and bobs in box with sds drill. Plus leather pinny, specks and lug protectors. Ready to go.


----------



## Chip shop (6 Nov 2014)

Fat ferret":wzpnnu8a said:


> Never had wheel marking gauge cause I suspect it's an expensive gimmick and the cheap wooden ones work fine never had any problems with my shaft shrinking! :shock:
> 
> Ok core tool kit for working on site cause I've come to get on with job and I will bring whatever other power tools once I know I need them.
> 
> ...



Can't really argue with much of that apart from the rasps.


----------



## Jacob (6 Nov 2014)

My starter kit was as per this thread from some time ago. tops-course-basic-kit-1982-t54291.html
It's not exactly a new topic, which is no reason to stop going over it again!


----------



## Fat ferret (6 Nov 2014)

What no rasps? More rasps? Different rasps?

Forgot nail pullers and of course four and six foot spirit levels don't live in box :wink: .


----------



## woodbrains (7 Nov 2014)

Jacob":30yrqw0h said:


> woodbrains":30yrqw0h said:
> 
> 
> > .... It was also aimed at a furniture making student, the likes that attend Barnsley or Parnham. Fine furniture done to a high level of precision in very expensive timber, where close is not good enough. .....
> ...



Hello,

Yes, it did, absolutely. You should actually read the threads that you are (errantly) pulling to bits. But then this has always been your problem.

Mike.


----------



## n0legs (7 Nov 2014)

I've got a bike you can ride it if you like it's got a basket and a bell on it.


----------



## Jacob (7 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":1z7me851 said:


> Jacob":1z7me851 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":1z7me851 said:
> ...


In fact it goes round the houses. And why not? 
I wasn't pulling it to bits but merely adding suggestions of my own - proper wooden gauges being one and a double sided oil stone the other. Is this a problem? I can see it would be for the fantasy woodworkers , who tend to have strict ideas about how things should be done - the "correct" tools, crazy sharpening and all that polishing and flattening etc. :lol: Steam punk.
"Last a lifetime" seems to be a theme. In fact most things do anyway except obvious consumables, which can include hammers and mallets in my case. 
A lot of people are working with tools which may be 50 to 100 years old, or more.


----------



## iNewbie (7 Nov 2014)

Time for a musical interlude...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPNHc-W_Js


----------



## Jacob (7 Nov 2014)

Sorry if I sound know-it-all but the "new woodworkers" are so assertive about how things should be done and with what tools, that you have to be fairly emphatic in disagreement. I don't think they do us any favours - particularly beginners who get persuaded to buy unnecessary expensive kit (wheel gauge) and indulge in difficult and often pointless procedures (polishing and flattening). 
Mike - Parnham house folded, Barnsley et al is a quirky English backwater. There are many other influences worth taking note of.


----------



## RogerBoyle (7 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":k7yypqw1 said:


> Hello,
> 
> The point of the thread over there, was to ascertain a core tool kit, which will be such a vital part of the tool kit, the best available should be bought. Not a 'it works with lots of fettling' or 'will do in a pinch till something more suitable is available' tool kit. A once only buy, forever kit, that will last and never disappoint. It was also aimed at a furniture making student, the likes that attend Barnsley or Parnham. Fine furniture done to a high level of precision in very expensive timber, where close is not good enough. The best tools will allow that student to reliably do this, wihthout worrying that the tools might be letting the side down a bit. So, someone who pays to go to these colleges will not be worried about a plane that cost £300 or a marking gauge for £30. Or chisels that have thick lands so dovetailing will be difficult (overcuts and brused corners totally out of the question) sharpening will be done to much higher levels of fineness that double sided India stones, and squares will be the best Moore and Wright or Starrett combination sets, not a bit of wood with a blade jammed into it. It is a 'best of' tool kit, not a DIY's under the stairs for emergency kit. It has to be contextualised; a core kit for a desert island survival would probably include an axe. A fine furniture makers kit definitely would not.
> 
> ...


 
Seriously Since when was fettling any tool not part and parcel of any furniture making course. 

Sorry But as much as I completely disagree with Jacob on just about everything I find where you state "So, someone who pays to go to these colleges will not be worried about a plane that cost £300 or a marking gauge for £30. " rather elitist and old boy network rubbish.... I can guarantee that some of the students back in the days when Parnham was a going concern would have been very worried about the costs (Unfortunately though most wouldn't) and even in this day and age I would contend that the vast majority of folks that make their earning from wood will not have the very best of everything in their kit... 
Most kit will have been bought within a budget to get the best value for their needs and styles.. 
Needs and styles evolve over time 
From what I have seen the list seems to encompass top of the range kit where middle of the road kit would work just as well and give the student the chance to make his own mind up about what kit he or she may like to get as top of the range 
To put it in a very simple manner I cannot help but think that the post is advising students to get a Rolls Royce to start with rather than BMW


----------



## woodbrains (7 Nov 2014)

Hello,

The point of the thread WAS discussing the higer end tools, though. if you want to start a thread of tools that are best on a budget, or best second hand purchases, then fair enough. but the other thread wasnt asking these questions, and the only reason it was brought over here was so that Jacob could do his usual moaning, because he was banned from there. If a tool works superbly well, then it cannot ever be called inferior to another, no matter how much cheaper or traditional that other tool may be. We have a choice, dont we?

Whether you like it or not, Parnham and its ilk was elitist, I'm afraid. those who can afford the fees are not bothered about the prices of tools. But then again I still dont think £300 pounds for a plane is exhoritant. I think Lie Nielsen et al are BMW's and not anywhere near Rolls Royces, for that we have Holtey and other hand made confections, and no one is advocating anone get thesea s a core tool kit. 

Im not sure what fantasy woodwork actually is! 5 axis CNC router as a core tool, maybe that qualifies, but planes and marking gauges that cost a bit more for super performance, definitely doesnt qualify as fantasy woodwork. And as for tool fettling, aside from sharpening them, I think fettling has only become expected of a new tool because their quality fell to abysmal levels of medeocrity. And when they were good, back in trad times I suppose, they were BLOODY EXPENSIVE! Relative to the premium tools of today, in fact often more expensive.

Mike.


----------



## iNewbie (7 Nov 2014)

Jacob":1svjakcs said:


> Sorry if I sound know-it-all but the "new woodworkers" are so assertive about how things should be done and with what tools, that you have to be fairly emphatic in disagreement. I don't think they do us any favours - particularly beginners who get persuaded to buy unnecessary expensive kit (wheel gauge) and indulge in difficult and often pointless procedures (polishing and flattening).
> Mike - Parnham house folded, Barnsley et al is a quirky English backwater. There are many other influences worth taking note of.



Who are these "new woodworkers" because I don't see any on here. 

No beginner can buy expensive kit he can't afford so I wouldn't lose sleep over it if I were you. Its not about the tools.


----------



## J_SAMa (8 Nov 2014)

Wheel gauges are fine for marking out joints but are beveled on the wrong side for dimensioning stock by hand. I use a pin gauge sharpened with only one bevel on the side away from the stock.
But I suppose just about everyone dimensions stock by machine nowadays so...


----------



## woodbrains (8 Nov 2014)

Hello,

The wheels can be reversed.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (8 Nov 2014)

J_SAMa":1ki8gipu said:


> Wheel gauges are fine for marking out joints but are beveled on the wrong side for dimensioning stock by hand. I use a pin gauge sharpened with only one bevel on the side away from the stock.
> But I suppose just about everyone dimensions stock by machine nowadays so...


I think the "double" bevel is so insignificant that flattening it is not worth the bother. Also it'd make it wrong if you marked up from the other side for any reason. With a normal pin it's the middle of the line which counts either way.


----------



## lurker (8 Nov 2014)

Most inhabitants of this forum are what a 100 years ago would be called gentlemen carpenters, we do not actually do it to earn a living.
We have two hobbies, accumulating tools and making stuff. 
I really enjoy fixing and using old kit. I get, but resist gear acquisition syndrome.
Firms like LV cater for those with GAS and I suspect there was a market like this in the past.

I probably possess ten fold the hand tools I need or use.
I have read Jacobs ,brad nailer etc etc posts for many years and have to say the woodworker in me tends to agree with him more and more.

Neither Jacob nor those who get upset by him are wrong, just their motives and targets are not the same.


----------



## bridger (8 Nov 2014)

I'd say Jacob performs an important role here: the contrarian outlier. someone has to be there to resist the ever present pull of the trendy gadget-du-jour. of course, as a kneejerk responder, he'll totally miss out on genuine innovation, but given the ratio of innovation to gadget in the real world, he'll be right a not insignificant percentage of the time.


Jacob- do you have somewhere a gallery of your work? I suspect that you are in fact someone who produces actual woodwork. and that at least some of it is quite good.

Edit: on your profile is a link to: http://www.owdman./co.uk. as I suspected, some good work there.


----------



## bugbear (8 Nov 2014)

bridger":3c7qcv9u said:


> Of course, as a kneejerk responder, he'll totally miss out on genuine innovation, but given the ratio of innovation to gadget in the real world, he'll be right a not insignificant percentage of the time.



He's as accurate as a stopped clock?

In the last thread that mentioned wheel/cutting gauges he sent much verbiage decrying them, then moved on to decrying marking knives.

Of course, 6 months later he was praising marking knives highly ("trad", a term of high praise in Jacob speak), but saying that everyone else was using them wrong. :roll: 

I don't think the _actual_ utility of cutting gauges or marking knives changed at any point during all this.

BugBear


----------



## lurker (8 Nov 2014)

But how much genuine innovation is there. Not much that I can see.
The fact, as I see it, is that a deep pocket is no substitute for craftsmanship.

That not to say playing with tools is an unworthy bloke thing. All bloke hobbies comprise of buying fancy kit.

Lets face it there are only a handful of contributors here who are not just playing.
And there is nothing wrong with that


----------



## iNewbie (8 Nov 2014)

lurker":2qmwsb73 said:


> I really enjoy fixing and using old kit. I get, but resist gear acquisition syndrome.
> Firms like LV cater for those with GAS and I suspect there was a market like this in the past.



Jacob's _fixation_ is on newb's being coshed over the back-of-the-head to buy any new fangled item LV/LN come up with only, its all a bit, Daily Mail hysteria...

They can't afford too. Older people with more financial spends, can.


----------



## Jacob (8 Nov 2014)

bugbear":1305sq4h said:


> bridger":1305sq4h said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, as a kneejerk responder, he'll totally miss out on genuine innovation, but given the ratio of innovation to gadget in the real world, he'll be right a not insignificant percentage of the time.
> ...


I think you have misunderstood what I said BB, as ever :roll: 
Can you point me to the thread with praise of marking knives? I know you take more notice of what I say than I do myself.


----------



## J_SAMa (8 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":1xwni55t said:


> Hello,
> 
> The wheels can be reversed.
> 
> Mike.



Yes I tried that. With mine The screw loud loosen quite easily . Also the wheel's bevel pushed the fence away from the stock. A pin gauge doesn't do that as there is less contact at any given point.
Don't get me wrong I still love my wheel gauge for marking housings, rebates and such. I'm just saying different tools are for different jobs. You can't replace a pin gauge with a wheel gauge just as you can't a smoothing plane with a jointer.


----------



## lurker (8 Nov 2014)

iNewbie":2fbq2qnm said:


> lurker":2fbq2qnm said:
> 
> 
> > I really enjoy fixing and using old kit. I get, but resist gear acquisition syndrome.
> ...




Every bloke hobby is the same. I am into photography and clearly the camera companies only thrive because folks are convinced the latest machine will make them better photographers. LN etc are the same.

I have a camera and lens that 8 years ago was the best pro kit available it would have cost near 4 k. I bought it for £300. It's way beyond my abilities but still takes decent photos and is a joy to use. Never again will I buy new and that pretty much goes for my tools too.

If you have the dosh indulge yourself but its not essential to have all this kit to make decent stuff.


----------



## bridger (8 Nov 2014)

lurker":31mabvek said:


> Never again will I buy new and that pretty much goes for my tools too.




buying new tools is pretty much reserved for things needed to get the current job out the door. since I have way too many tools already, it doesn't happen much. used tools are a different matter. those I buy opportunistically. yard sales, etc., and only if the price is so cheap I cannot in good conscience walk away.


----------



## bugbear (9 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2g5pdnq5 said:


> Can you point me to the thread with praise of marking knives?



You can google it yourself, if you like.

BugBear


----------



## Rhossydd (9 Nov 2014)

lurker":1aglji0u said:


> I have a camera and lens that 8 years ago was the best pro kit available it would have cost near 4 k. I bought it for £300.


Not a very helpful example. Digital cameras were still a very new technology then and major improvements were, and still are, being made, that in turns leads to high prices to develop the new technology with high rates of depreciation as newer, better cameras are released.
The same isn't true for wood working tools as they are a very mature technology. In turn that means that if you buy a good brand now it has very little depreciation.


----------



## lurker (9 Nov 2014)

Rhossydd":2qq3l5dk said:


> lurker":2qq3l5dk said:
> 
> 
> > I have a camera and lens that 8 years ago was the best pro kit available it would have cost near 4 k. I bought it for £300.
> ...




Fair comment but what I was talking about was blokes compulsion to buy kit 
WW tools is so mature there is rarely anything new.
Jacob, I think,is just trying to reset a balance between what we really need and GAS, for the benefit of new starters


----------



## Jacob (9 Nov 2014)

lurker":tstofjbx said:


> Rhossydd":tstofjbx said:
> 
> 
> > lurker":tstofjbx said:
> ...


Not only that but also to point out what brilliant bits of kit things like wooden marking gauges are. It seems such a pity that people are being so discouraged about stuff which has served generations perfectly well. All the objections to wooden gauges seems to be nonsense (not least all that waffling about bevels) and the metal ones are not as easy to use. It's that simple.
I blame the tool sellers!


----------



## iNewbie (9 Nov 2014)

lurker":tbe7crbt said:


> Rhossydd":tbe7crbt said:
> 
> 
> > Fair comment but what I was talking about was blokes compulsion to buy kit
> ...



If you don't have the funds the compulsion to buy is more a wish...


I'm still awaiting from Jacob to be told who exactly these "Guru's" are, who keep telling people to spend on only the finest made tools....


----------



## matt_southward (9 Nov 2014)

FWIW - I am essentially a 'new starter' or a 'new woodworker' and so I have firsthand experience of the frustrations a new woodworker encounters, and the temptation this leads into buying new kit.

Someone commented earlier about furniture students needing to 'fettle kit' and so should be prepared to do it - certainly to save money, and yet somebody else said that new furniture students wouldn't worry about dropping £300 on a new plane! Quite the disparity there - and I bridge that gap as I did start a furniture course last September (though I had to stop after a few months because I lost my job - but that's another story). My experience was that 50% of the students didn't give a rat's wotsit for the tools they were using and would use the college's crappy and much abused tools (these were generally the under 25s - though that's not hard and fast); the other 50% who were like me, shall we say more...ahem... mature DID care about the tools they were using and were in the process of sourcing their own 'core kit'.

Now I did try to get old planes and other tools from ebay for fettling (and I like to do it and enjoy it), but the rub is that it all takes time and crucially _experience._ But you are in the process of gaining experience and don't really know what you are looking for or how to adjust things (College staff do not have the time to help much - however willing). Plus there are deadlines for making stuff at college and for many of us, jobs to go to. So enter the wonderful and expensive world of Shiny New Kit. I did drop £200+ pounds on a Clifton No 5 as after the 3rd ebay failure I simply didn't have the time to mess about any more - though I would have loved to have found a half decent pre-war Stanley. I think the problem is that a lot of new stuff at the cheaper end is utter junk, and to avoid more hassle one ends up looking to pay more, and more and more!

I really do wish I'd come across some of the advice on here earlier - and I personally appreciate Jacob's attempts to debunk some of the mystique of the new stuff - people really are susceptible for newer=better, when in woodwork, there really is nothing new under the sun. Though I don't think it's always that clear cut, and we must make allowance for genuine technical improvements (but wary of techno-bling). The industrial system has always made things with a close eye on cost/benefit analysis - whether old or new, and for us newbies - a way for discerning the difference between need vs want is vital.


----------



## morfa (9 Nov 2014)

matt_southward":365cdqpd said:


> Now I did try to get old planes and other tools from ebay for fettling (and I like to do it and enjoy it), but the rub is that it all takes time and crucially _experience._ But you are in the process of gaining experience and don't really know what you are looking for or how to adjust things (College staff do not have the time to help much - however willing). Plus there are deadlines for making stuff at college and for many of us, jobs to go to. So enter the wonderful and expensive world of Shiny New Kit. I did drop £200+ pounds on a Clifton No 5 as after the 3rd ebay failure I simply didn't have the time to mess about any more - though I would have loved to have found a half decent pre-war Stanley. I think the problem is that a lot of new stuff at the cheaper end is utter junk, and to avoid more hassle one ends up looking to pay more, and more and more!l.



Next time you need a plane, give Ray Iles a ring. Apart from my no 4s, I've bought all my planes from him. He re-grinds the soles and generally tidies the plane up before it's sold. No fettling needed, just decent second hand planes at good (often cheaper than ebay) prices. Highly recommended. In case you're wondering, Ray is (I think) Ashley Iles brother. 

http://www.oldtools.free-online.co.uk/shop/index.html


----------



## matt_southward (9 Nov 2014)

Hi Morfa, thanks for the info on Ray Iles, I didn't know he sold on refurbed bench planes - though he's well known in the green woodworking community. I shall definitely try him next time as still have a few on the list to get!


----------



## woodbrains (9 Nov 2014)

Hello,

Context please!

Is said students attending the likes of Parnham wouldn't worry about the price of tools. Missing out the context changes things entirely. Parnham dealt with very high end fine furniture and was attended by the likes of multi millionaire mark Boddington. Studen site joiners would be a different matter. 

Look, the point of the original thread was asking if there is a core of tools in a kit which, being essential, often used and reliability deepened on, should the higher end tools be bought for this need. Not a whole tool kit or unnecessary flamboyance, but a tool so essential that it would be worth buying better initially, in the long run. I have such a kit, I suppose, wher many cheaper tools that weren't the best quality have been replaced with better performing ones. If I had have known back then, should I just have gone straight for the better ones and saved a lot of faffing about.

A person is not very helpful by saying silly things like X is inferior to what we have, when often he just means more expensive . A LN plane is no way inferior to a modern Stanley, Record et al. If someone wants the better performance then that is fine. If not needed then also fine. But inferior or a stupid argument. Jacob does not make fine furniture. I made a living at doing so for a couple of decades. I needed better performance from my tools than bog standard ones. But note that I never say something is inferior to something else. My Record planes did need improving for the work I do. Jacob telling me or anyone that those improvements were unnecessary, or expecting better performance from a tool is unnecessary is silly. I have never failed to improve a tool and get better, more satisfying result.s from using them. If I bought a better performing tool initially, would I be being foolish. I would have saved hours of my precious time. Perhaps buying one or two choice premium tools for my core tool kit would have been sensible.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (9 Nov 2014)

Those metal gauges are inferior to the wooden ones. In fact they are pointless. Stanley had a go at them but they are rare now, as nobody wanted them much. 
That's the LV/LN dilemma - they re-introduce stuff from the back catalogue but ignoring the fact that they are in the back catalogue because nobody wanted them.
I expect there is some specialist user out there who need a special metal gauge for some reason (can't think what) but they too are very rare.
Parnham (et al) was mostly about expensive giftware for very rich people and is best ignored - there was nothing there for the likes of us!.


----------



## woodbrains (9 Nov 2014)

Hello,

Is no one allowed to make high end stuff for people who appreciate it? Parnham is used as an example of the level that might be expected by students wishing to make fine stuff. But there are many others and none are cheap to attend and none expect anything but a very high specification of work to be done. We should hope there are some willing to make the finer stuff, there are enough people here who complain that nothing has been done as well as furniture in Georgian times. Well it has and is, if you look for it and stop telling us how unnecessary high levels of accuracy and high levels of finish are, in your opinion.

Mike.


----------



## Kalimna (9 Nov 2014)

Technically, Jacob, you are correct inasmuch as the metal gauges are pointless. Their cutting part is a wheel, which has an edge not a point. Therefore they are, indeed, pointless.
However I find mine very useful, and not at all pointless in the manner you describe them.
They also take up less space than a traditional wooden gauge. Surely an advantage in any toolbox?

Cheers,
Adam


----------



## iNewbie (9 Nov 2014)

its not about the tool - or maybe the thread is.


----------



## Jacob (9 Nov 2014)

Kalimna":1gnje7r8 said:


> ....
> They also take up less space than a traditional wooden gauge. Surely an advantage in any toolbox?
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam


OK so they are not entirely useless if that's what you have to use. 
Fitting in a tool box - that's the first positive thing anybody has said about them! 
Mind you if space really is an issue you can cut down a wooden gauge to fit. Or throw out something else. Or saw the handles of something. Inflatable handles? Bigger toolbox?


----------



## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2014)

On the matter of marking gauges my personal favourites are Marples wooden ones with a little fettling.

My experience of working with those new to woodworking is that most beginners find it easier to use the wheel style. It would be great if new woodworkers could master the use of marking gauges in half an hour, but old craftsmen would spend many years apprenticed to master craftsmen to learn their craft. 

Time served makers are that (time severed) learning their craft over a number of years. The majority of tradesmen have good hand skills but do most of their work on machines and buy as few tools as possible. Every tool needs to pay it's way to earn the maker his living.

We also have a lot of weekend woodworkers who can afford better tools than tradesmen can pay for. This is very healthy for woodworking but to two groups of woodworkers are very different. These guys possibly have the disposable income or just enjoy working with beautiful well engineered tools (and why not). We also have those who are occasional woodworkers who have the time and skill to fettle old tools, but these are skills in their own right. 

The merits of traditional marking gauges are the point can be adapted (filed and honed) if required to suit the work application and users needs. Angled to suit a puller or pusher, these adaptations may not be required for those using them for general joinery or those with experience of how to handle tools. The point can be used to mark out hinges and joints with definite start and stop positions a little more tricky with a round disc marker.

The new wheel style markers are better for not following the grain, and can be easier to set to depth against the timber or against mortice chisel for dual marking gauges. They also act as a cutting gauge for across the grain, but I feel they are not as good as a good quality sharp cutting gauge for this cross grain work.

The Vertias marking gauges can be a little small in the hand for some so they may prefer the WoodRiver style with a larger stock to grip.

There are a lot of reasons people buy particular brands or styles of tools and this is one of the reasons I didn't get too involved in the original post on The a different place. I like my students and customers to try out different makes of tools after we have discussed and demonstrated the differences.

What they buy is their choice and as long as they are happy with the tool and can use it I feel my job has been done.

I do get frustrated when students have been sold tools that ultimately don't suit them. But buy cheap and buy twice comes to mind but only spend to your own budget.

Cheers Peter


----------



## woodbrains (9 Nov 2014)

Hello,

The best beech pin gauge ever made was made by Stanley and for some reason dropped from production. It is not always about what is useful or not, that means some tools are no longer produced. No doubt the wheel gauge made by Stanley was very effective, as they are now, just not well enough subscribed to. I'm glad that there are new makers of tools that continue to reintroduce older tools that are no longer made by their original manufacturers.

The wooden gauge I'm talking about, incidentally, had logically enough, the clamping screw act across the diagonal of the shaft, so it never suffered from seasonal movement problems,, the head always looked without any wobble and always square to the shaft, and consequently, the pin was also set into the diagonal, so it could easily be seen in use. It was such a simple and effective arrangement I cannot imagine why it was discontinued, other than Stanleys self destructive policy on making poorer and poorer tools. I saw a used one the other day on auction for 26 pounds with a couple of days still to go! Clearly some will pay for effective tools, even simple wooden ones. I think I might make a couple of nice ones like these, as sadly the one I owned went walkies. I'll sharpen the pins elliptically with a flat, though, so they cut across the grain. No one can convince me that a conical pin shape is a good one for cutting lines timber. 

Mike.


----------



## G S Haydon (9 Nov 2014)

I think Peter has this nicely rounded up. If anyone finding this thread now or in the future and is buying a gauge I can confirm a conical pin wooden gauge works very well with the grain and it's bro the cutting gauge works very well across it. If they didn't they would never of come into being and still be with us. Also the wheel versions must also work well otherwise folks would not report their success. The bigger issue is practice, practice, practice. Sadly that can't be purchased.


----------



## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2014)

G S Haydon":2qq4wifz said:


> I think Peter has this nicely rounded up. If anyone finding this thread now or in the future and is buying a gauge I can confirm a conical pin wooden gauge works very well with the grain and it's bro the cutting gauge works very well across it. If they didn't they would never of come into being and still be with us. Also the wheel versions must also work well otherwise folks would not report their success. The bigger issue is practice, practice, practice. Sadly that can't be purchased.



But doing a short course with a maker can be bought :wink: This may pay dividends either with helping you to choose the best tools for *YOU* or show you how to use those already purchased. This can enhance your knowledge and techniques on in leaps and bounds. 

Practice is the best way to improve your skills (but only if your practising good techniques) try things out get them wrong and do them again!

Cheers Peter


----------



## Phil Pascoe (9 Nov 2014)

The old chippie I used to work with maintained that the best thing to use when making a gauge was a gramophone needle - although I don't know where you'd get one now.


----------



## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2014)

phil.p":1olv55w9 said:


> The old chippie I used to work with maintained that the best thing to use when making a gauge was a gramophone needle - although I don't know where you'd get one now.



I have been working on some marking gauges and was given the same advice by Ray Iles.

Cheers Peter


----------



## AndyT (9 Nov 2014)

phil.p":cac61dh7 said:


> The old chippie I used to work with maintained that the best thing to use when making a gauge was a gramophone needle - although I don't know where you'd get one now.



EBay!

Newly made, £5 to £6 per 100.


----------



## Jacob (9 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":3mb8tfdq said:


> Hello,
> 
> The best beech pin gauge ever made was made by Stanley and for some reason dropped from production. It is not always about what is useful or not, that means some tools are no longer produced. No doubt the wheel gauge made by Stanley was very effective, as they are now, just not well enough subscribed to. I'm glad that there are new makers of tools that continue to reintroduce older tools that are no longer made by their original manufacturers.
> 
> ...


I don't know, but I guess it was discontinued because the problems it solved were imaginary and nobody could see the point (no pun intended). I've got dozens* of gauges and non of them have these problems.
* well a dozen perhaps. I might take some photos, they are quite interesting.
"seasonal movement"? :lol:


----------



## G S Haydon (9 Nov 2014)

Very much so Peter. I'm just about to start a new project and I'm likely to seek help to prevent too many mistakes.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (9 Nov 2014)

Seasonal movement? I've a Marples, made from danta (which I believe was used because of its stability) that is very loose in the summer and jams solid in the winter.


----------



## bugbear (9 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":3jpvc8tn said:


> The wooden gauge I'm talking about, incidentally, had logically enough, the clamping screw act across the diagonal of the shaft, so it never suffered from seasonal movement problems,, the head always looked without any wobble and always square to the shaft, and consequently, the pin was also set into the diagonal, so it could easily be seen in use. It was such a simple and effective arrangement I cannot imagine why it was discontinued, other than Stanleys self destructive policy on making poorer and poorer tools. I saw a used one the other day on auction for 26 pounds with a couple of days still to go!



I assume you mean the Stanley 5061, as recommended by DC. 

I got around 5-10 of these for DC a while back, quid a piece at car boots, sent down in a box.

I've got one with a knife fitted - best of all worlds IMHO. Allows a proper "walled" cut (to use Seller's jargon) to be made.

Heh! I was googing for a 5061 image, and it turns out that Sellers like this "new fangled" gauge just as much as me and DC!

https://paulsellers.com/2011/10/3478/

BugBear


----------



## bugbear (9 Nov 2014)

phil.p":totsnt0y said:


> Seasonal movement? I've a Marples, made from danta (which I believe was used because of its stability) that is very loose in the summer and jams solid in the winter.



I've bought many s/h marking gauges, some slack, some stuck solid, very few are truly "tight", and cannot remain so since the grain directions are perpendicular. 

The 5061 design avoids all this.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (9 Nov 2014)

phil.p":379o0p9n said:


> Seasonal movement? I've a Marples, made from danta (which I believe was used because of its stability) that is very loose in the summer and jams solid in the winter.


If you sand it a touch in the winter it will be loose enough. If you tighten the screw in summer it will be tight enough. Simple really. Easily fixed once and for all time! Why have you left it so long?
Non of mine stick or rock. They all have that common rounded D section shaft - non of it is flat so when tightened they press tight and won't rock. Problems could be with flat sided shafts perhaps?
I can see the logic of that Stanley but it solves a problem which doesn't actually exist in practice.


----------



## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2014)

If I was suffering that much seasonal movement in my workshop on an 18mm gauge stock I wouldn't make anything and send it out to customers homes.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (9 Nov 2014)

Humidity low - about 55%, high about 90% - same as indoors.  Yes, it's easily fixed - two or three years of relieving it in the winter makes it looser again in the summer.


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

phil.p":1xz3zs4h said:


> Humidity low - about 55%, high about 90% - same as indoors.  Yes, it's easily fixed - two or three years of relieving it in the winter makes it looser again in the summer.


Phew sounds like a big job! Couldn't you get a local woodworker to do it for you? :lol:


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

phil.p":25f1kc6c said:


> Humidity low - about 55%, high about 90% - same as indoors.  Yes, it's easily fixed - two or three years of relieving it in the winter makes it looser again in the summer.



Yes - there's obviously no issue in the screw direction (as Jacob "Helpfully" points out) but the other direction will obviously end up loose in summer.

It probably doesn't matter, but it's annoying, and an argument in favour of the cheap 5061. At least it was cheap until Seller's acolytes pitched in.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Stanl ... 2598450d70

56 quid!!

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

bugbear":2tvorais said:


> phil.p":2tvorais said:
> 
> 
> > Humidity low - about 55%, high about 90% - same as indoors.  Yes, it's easily fixed - two or three years of relieving it in the winter makes it looser again in the summer.
> ...


Sorry I don't follow that. What is annoying - that you have to tighten the screw more in summer? Even if you leave it set all year round I don't think it will come loose in summer. Perhaps check seasonally - at the equinoxes and the solstices perhaps? Or perhaps just stop being silly boys?


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

bugbear":pffktmpc said:


> ....
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Stanl ... 2598450d70
> 
> 56 quid!!
> ...


Yes but you don't need it. Let the collectors have them. You can get them in boxes of twenty just as good for the same price.
Although looking at that photo - I wonder if Marples have lost the plot. It looks like a square shaft. These _are_ prone to being slack. The conventional rounded D section is self aligning/tightening rather in the same way as the Stanley but less exaggeratedly.


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2s1oh401 said:


> bugbear":2s1oh401 said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":2s1oh401 said:
> ...



No, I specifically (and clearly, I thought) said there's no issue in that direction :roll: . There might be more of a useful _discussion_ if you didn't deliberately pretend to misunderstand for rhetorical effect.

But in the perpendicular direction, you've got a cross grain situation w.r.t. the head, since the stem grain is not parallel to the grain in the head. 

BugBear


----------



## Racers (10 Nov 2014)

I am surprised that people buy marking gauges, its only 2 bits of wood and a pin, are you woodworkers or tool buyers?

:wink:  

Pete


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

bugbear":2fflz522 said:


> Jacob":2fflz522 said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":2fflz522 said:
> ...


Oh right. Er - so, what is the problem exactly? :roll:


----------



## David C (10 Nov 2014)

Since the demise of the 5061, wobble in the second dimension, can be eliminated by planing the stick face, opposite the screw, out of square. The screw then twists the stick in the hole to make it firm.

I learned this very useful technique from Colen Clenton. My gauge pins are ground and honed to small crescent shaped knives. Just like his pins. These work very well both long and cross grain. Cutting gauges are reserved for veneer work.

David Charlesworth.


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

David C":23pxcpaa said:


> Since the demise of the 5061, wobble in the second dimension, can be eliminated by planing the stick face, opposite the screw, out of square. The screw then twists the stick in the hole to make it firm.
> 
> I learned this very useful technique from Colen Clenton. My gauge pins are ground and honed to small crescent shaped knives. Just like his pins. These work very well both long and cross grain. Cutting gauges are reserved for veneer work.
> 
> David Charlesworth.


As a rule they are (were) actually made out of square to start with so this problem rarely arises, but is easy to fix if necessary.
I've got a couple of old gauges with pins filed (not by me) as you describe. Looks like a good idea.


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":b3ci7k5k said:


> As a rule they are (were) actually made out of square to start with



Most old marking and cutting gauges have stems so far "out of square", they're actually a distinctive 'U' cross section. Even the upper face of the 'U' tends to be slightly rounded, so Clenton's (clever) parallogram idea doesn't apply.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

bugbear":1rx0hyat said:


> Jacob":1rx0hyat said:
> 
> 
> > As a rule they are (were) actually made out of square to start with
> ...


It's the same idea.


----------



## David C (10 Nov 2014)

The stems I buy from Marples have two parallel faces and two slightly curved ones.

I change the orientation of the pin, slope it and make it visible while I'm at it.

Visible pin very useful for tidy dovetail shoulders.

David


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":3f4pteb4 said:


> bugbear":3f4pteb4 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3f4pteb4 said:
> ...



post165644.html?hilit=%20Clenton%20design%20work%20#p165644

I don't think so at all, but you're welcome to your assertion. Free speech and all that.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

bugbear":1h1vg6d9 said:


> Jacob":1h1vg6d9 said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":1h1vg6d9 said:
> ...


Same principle, different shape.
In any case there must have been millions of woodworkers who have quite independently hit on the idea of making a loose shaft fit better by trimming it. It's not rocket science. In fact I did it myself with no help from anybody! No claim to fame in my opinion.
Interesting that old thread - many long winded attempts to re-design the wheel.


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":29rp1ofs said:


> Same principle, different shape.



Perhaps a simple diagram would help the credibility of your (repeated) assertion - I did one for Colin Clenton's clever paralleogram, you can show _your_ version for the normal rounded 'U' stem of most old gauges.

BugBear


----------



## Racers (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2kugeugc said:


> The old woodies are infallible on oak or anything else.
> The selling point of the metal ones seems to be around trivial problems with the wooden sort which anybody might encounter on first use. Given half an hour of practice and these problems disappear forever. But you would never know that if you have gone for an expensive steel one instead, or spent several hours pointlessly modifying one, as is suggested in some quarters.





Jacob":2kugeugc said:


> Same principle, different shape.
> In any case there must have been millions of woodworkers who have quite independently hit on the idea of making a loose shaft fit better by trimming it. It's not rocket science. In fact I did it myself with no help from anybody! No claim to fame in my opinion.
> Interesting that old thread - many long winded attempts to re-design the wheel.



So infallible you had to modify it, really Jacob do try and keep up with your own propaganda.

Pete


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

Racers":amkglr7f said:


> Jacob":amkglr7f said:
> 
> 
> > The old woodies are infallible on oak or anything else.
> ...


Making them work nicely is part and parcel of any tool operation. 
The woodies are easy to modify as you wish. I've got several which have been radiussed to go round curves, or shortened to go into rebates, extra pins added to make into a fixed mortice gauge, etc.


----------



## Rhossydd (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":3h3dd0j9 said:


> Making them work nicely is part and parcel of any tool operation.


Not necessarily. It's quite possible to buy good tools that work straight out of the box, then you can just get on with making things.


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

Rhossydd":xfzg6oy3 said:


> Jacob":xfzg6oy3 said:
> 
> 
> > Making them work nicely is part and parcel of any tool operation.
> ...


They don't stay in outa the box condition forever unfortunately. There aren't many tools which won't need attention at some point in their lives. Even a hammer has to have it's face freshened up now and then.


----------



## iNewbie (10 Nov 2014)

Rhossydd":1n1e3exe said:


> Jacob":1n1e3exe said:
> 
> 
> > Making them work nicely is part and parcel of any tool operation.
> ...



Don't worry about Jacob's contradictions, they're 'part and parcel' of his schtick...

Posted: 17 Jul 2013, 07:33

"The trouble is there is so much misinformation out there - especially on the sharpening and fettling front - you have to be totally sceptical and work it all out for yourself.* Even the humble marking gauge gets a regular knocking - you are supposed to buy a stupidly expensive american novelty version which doesn't work very well or waste hours modifying the one you have got for no apparent reason; to go faster perhaps?* Just add stripes - same effect for less effort"

hand-plane-t71915-15.html


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

One does have to explain things very carefully on here!
It's like this:
1 The humble wooden marking gauge for all normal purposes will work perfectly outa the box and not need any modification, i.e. exactly what I am saying above.
BUT
2 After years of use it may need fettling - as with all tools
AND
3 Being made of wood it is also very suited to modification for special purposes such as curved work.

Hope that helps - please feel free to ask questions - it may seem a stupid one, but somebody out there will be grateful!


----------



## bridger (10 Nov 2014)

I guess the game of Jacob-baiting is sort of an official game here at UKW... and played by none quite so well as Jacob himself.


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

bridger":22plmhwt said:


> I guess the game of Jacob-baiting is sort of an official game here at UKW... and played by none quite so well as Jacob himself.


Not sure whether to be flattered or insulted!


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

bridger":37tizn9t said:


> I guess the game of Jacob-baiting is sort of an official game here at UKW... and played by none quite so well as Jacob himself.



He is the master.

BugBear


----------



## G S Haydon (10 Nov 2014)

David C":zl03kccn said:


> Since the demise of the 5061, wobble in the second dimension, can be eliminated by planing the stick face, opposite the screw, out of square. The screw then twists the stick in the hole to make it firm.
> 
> I learned this very useful technique from Colen Clenton. My gauge pins are ground and honed to small crescent shaped knives. Just like his pins. These work very well both long and cross grain. Cutting gauges are reserved for veneer work.
> 
> David Charlesworth.



While I agree that cutting gauges are of course perfect for veneer work they are also used to great effect across the grain. Frank Strazza demonstrates how he uses a cutting gauge in a way I also find useful http://www.sustainlife.org/blogs/woodwo ... ing-gauge/ 

Not unusual to see it written about too http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=70fa ... in&f=false and http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=W2Sv ... in&f=false are just a couple.

Hope that did not come across a pedantic, just good to know it does not have to be reserved for veneers unless the owner of the gauge prefers it.


----------



## G S Haydon (10 Nov 2014)

I know Jacob won't want to hear it as I'm sure praise is the last thing he's looking for but I know I feel lucky to read his thoughts. He can be provocative but he is experienced and wants to promote simple methods. His is not the only road and others are equally valid but sometimes keeping things simple is the hardest thing to do.


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Bling!







(note the narrow elliptical, nearly pointed, end of the cutter, better for marking than cutting)

BugBear


----------



## Ed Bray (10 Nov 2014)

Just to bring this subject back on topic, how would you go about sharpening the core tool set?


----------



## G S Haydon (10 Nov 2014)

:lol: Ed!!!!!!!!! :lol:


----------



## Sgian Dubh (10 Nov 2014)

I never know whether to simply laugh or become exasperated at threads like this. To be honest I never knew that marking gauges were tools of such fiendish complexity ... until now. I always thought they were pretty simple bits of kit readily tweaked if required. Oh well, live and learn. I shall look upon those two little bits of wood, a knob with its threaded rod, and a spike (or spikes, or knife thingy) with renewed respect for their devilish complexity, their never-ending need for challenging physical upgrading, and the difficulty of their operation.

Never again will I simply set a dimension and scribe (or score) a line or lines with insouciant impunity as I've been doing for the last forty or so years without wondering how I've been getting away with it so untraumatised for so long. Slainte.


----------



## JimF. (10 Nov 2014)

What I like about the humble marking gauge is its humble simplicity and the way that it works because it is simply bound to. 

A sharp point on a stick and a fixed distance. What could be easier or more elegant?


----------



## bridger (10 Nov 2014)

Julian":3nw3yc2q said:


> What I like about the humble marking gauge is its humble simplicity and the way that it works because it is simply bound to.
> 
> A sharp point on a stick and a fixed distance. What could be easier or more elegant?





Pointy stick!


----------



## lurker (10 Nov 2014)

=D> =D>


Ed Bray":2rep18je said:


> Just to bring this subject back on topic, how would you go about sharpening the core tool set?


 =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

Julian":1wlspeps said:


> What I like about the humble marking gauge is its humble simplicity and the way that it works because it is simply bound to.
> 
> A sharp point on a stick and a fixed distance. What could be easier or more elegant?


Well yes. 
Mind you I have a beautiful cast iron bottle opener on my key ring - this sort of thing.
It's not affected by seasonal movement in the slightest!


----------



## woodbrains (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":dokhd19n said:


> Mind you I have a beautiful cast iron bottle opener on my key ring - this sort of thing.
> It's not affected by seasonal movement in the slightest!



Hello,

At last, a definite contender for inclusion in anyone's core tool kit!

Mike.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (10 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":3c3fjlbk said:


> Jacob":3c3fjlbk said:
> 
> 
> > Mind you I have a beautiful cast iron bottle opener on my key ring - this sort of thing.
> ...



May I humbly suggest a pair of ear defenders, as well?


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Julian":1oa7ipte said:


> What I like about the humble marking gauge is its humble simplicity and the way that it works because it is simply bound to.
> 
> A sharp point on a stick and a fixed distance. What could be easier or more elegant?



Just like its cousin, the surface gauge...

surface-gauges-for-woodworkers-t22873.html

BugBear


----------



## John15 (10 Nov 2014)

Having followed both sides of this discussion so far, I have to come down in favour of Jacob's point of view. I enjoy using my three gauges made of wood - the single pin, the mortice gauge and the cutting gauge and get good results from them all. The inaccuracies in my work are due more to my woodworking ability rather than the tools. I do have a wheel gauge in its box up on the shelf but so far it hasn't been used.

John


----------



## woodbrains (10 Nov 2014)

Hello,

I think things get a bit carried away here. I only argued that wheel gauges work very well indeed, and saying they are inferior to wooden ones is nonesense. I never said wooden ones are poor tools, though some fettling is often required to get them to work effectively. I use wooden ones and wheel gauges, and fully understand the merits and pitfalls. The main benefit of the wheel gauge is, they work and you can get going without fuss. It is daft to say anyone having used pin gauges, one has never experienced the pin follow the grain and make an errant mark. It looks ugly on something that matters and a pound to a pinch, that is exactly where it happens, never under something that doesn't show. It is somehow implied here that it is lack of skill that allows this to happen, but it is just a characteristic of wood, sometimes it happens despite everything. If a gauge takes away the error, then use it and get on.

Surface gauges work well, but metal doesn't have grain direction like wood. Try marking wood with one and either the pin deflects, or the base lifts from the surface plate. Skill, whatever form that may be, will not compensate for the eccentricities of grain run out. Wood is a funny material and anything that reduces the unexpected is welcomed by me.

Mike.


----------



## David C (10 Nov 2014)

The modifications I have described will produce a gauge that works as well or better than a Titemark.

These take some care and time.

The pin is visible and cuts deeper than any disk/wheel. One side of the line is square to the surface, which greatly assists accuracy, just like a knife line.

Starting and stopping are more precise.

All this on a wooden gauge costing less than £5.

I can see no possible advantage in a tapered pin, except possibly for carpentry?

David

David


----------



## matt_southward (10 Nov 2014)

Well I've followed the discussion with great interest and I too, on balance and after reflection, would agree with Jacob's view - though not necessarily with how he expresses it :lol: 

So much so, that I've decided to revisit the ordinary wooden gauge and work through the issues I've previously had with them - working with the various fettling options suggested here. I do still like my wheel gauge and don't know whether I'll switch or not, but being informed is what it's about (especially for those of us with less experience) and you have all done an excellent job of that! So bearing in mind the original topic - core marking...er...tool kits for newbies - on behalf of the newbies out here, thanks!


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

David C":fiw4xeva said:


> The modifications I have described will produce a gauge that works as well or better than a Titemark.
> 
> These take some care and time.
> 
> ...


Tapered pin keeps things simple. 
If you have a flat side then there is a 50% chance it'll be on the wrong side, so you'll need 2 gauges, or if it's a wheel you'll have to keep turning it. There'll be a lot of confusion. With a tapered pin it's the centre of the line every time. The tiny bevel is insignificant and unlikely to be seen in the finished work
Have encountered a lot of gauges old and new but never seen one with a flat sided pin except for cutting gauges which is a different thing altogether.
I see the point (ho ho) of the trailing pin alteration but can't say I've ever felt the need.

PS at £80 almost anything is better than a Titemark! Madness!


----------



## Cheshirechappie (10 Nov 2014)

Right - summarizing the thread so far:

1) Some people like wooden marking gauges.

2) Some people like wheel marking gauges.

3) Some poor, misguided souls (including me) saw the thread title 'Core Tool Kit' and thought it was a thread about core tool kits. Silly people.

Both wheel and wooden marking gauges are readily available, with all sorts of minor variants of both, including user-made modifications. Thus, both schools of thought can easily be satisfied.

Good. That's that sorted then. Can we get back to arguing about sharpening, now?


----------



## woodbrains (10 Nov 2014)

Hello,

CC, why don't you start a core tool kit thread? Right from the off, This one was never about core tool kit, but about a cretain moaning about what he sees as unnecessarily efficient tools. Or put it another way, what he sees as an unnecessary expense. Why he won't let alone those who have decided that thier level of expectation is higher than something Noah might have had, defats me. For me, woodwork is still advancing and perfecting skills and methods. I'm not going to fetter myself with some antiquated methods, just because it was done 200 years ago, _without question_. There has never been a perfect device made, there is always room for improvement and development and as someone who designs things for a living, I have to question what has gone before as well as what we see today, and evaluate and improve. It would be remiss of me as a designer to accept 2 bits of wood with a nail stuck into it, as the best solution to marking a line. Woodwork isn't dead, it is evolving and improving and it must unless we want it to be some museum show for the curious historian.

Mike.


----------



## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2m080fh3 said:


> Tapered pin keeps things simple.
> If you have a flat side then there is a 50% chance it'll be on the wrong side, so you'll need 2 gauges, or if it's a wheel you'll have to keep turning it. There'll be a lot of confusion. With a tapered pin it's the centre of the line every time. The tiny bevel is insignificant and unlikely to be seen in the finished work



You have a choice - either accept "half an error" all the time (the taper) or use a flat to get the error down to zero. Having multiple gauges is not a problem - someone in this thread (presumably a collector) claimed to have a dozen anyway...

In both cases the error can be reduced by using a thinner blade/pin.

The superiority of a knife/wheel when marking cross grain is a separate issue.

BugBear


----------



## Harbo (10 Nov 2014)

This was a thread brought across from another forum in order for a certain person to express his vitriol towards certain people over there!
It was taken completely out of context as Woodbrains and others have tried to point out.
If you don't answer him he'll soon get bored but I'm afraid you do.

Rod


----------



## bridger (10 Nov 2014)

bugbear":15cwav4x said:


> You have a choice - either accept "half an error" all the time (the taper) or use a flat to get the error down to zero. Having multiple gauges is not a problem - someone in this thread (presumably a collector) claimed to have a dozen anyway...
> 
> In both cases the error can be reduced by using a thinner blade/pin.
> 
> ...




if the pin is thin and you don't dig it in deep the line is plenty fine. the displaced wood is very little and is compressed to the side anyway, where it is still available for burnishing back or will likely swell back up with the moisture from glue.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

bridger":pqfio9ek said:


> bugbear":pqfio9ek said:
> 
> 
> > You have a choice - either accept "half an error" all the time (the taper) or use a flat to get the error down to zero. Having multiple gauges is not a problem - someone in this thread (presumably a collector) claimed to have a dozen anyway...
> ...


Yes. Or in other words - if you don't think about it it won't be a problem.

They won't give up will they, all these people desperately anxious to prove that woodwork is really difficult and almost impossible!


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2014)

bridger":2mrb6ipm said:


> the displaced wood is very little and is _*compressed*_ to the side anyway, where it is still available for burnishing back or will likely *swell back up* with the moisture from glue.



Excellent point - thank you.

BugBear


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2014)

After all the enthusiasm for basic pin-gauges, I thought I might have missed something.

Being unable to pass up gorgeous box-wood screwed gauges priced at 50p when they come up at car boots
(which they do, often) I have "some" in a Tesco 6-bottle wine box.

Pieces of scrap timber to hand. I worked my way through, and herewith my observations:

Two of them had stems that stuck.

Most of them had stems that were loose in the non-screw direction.

Two had stems that slid with no sideways motion at all.

I found no evidence of Clenton-style "camming" in any of them

More interesting was their performance in use. In the more recent examples, with a long, narrow, sharp pin, much
more care was needed (including the "running on the edge of the stem" technique") to prevent the pin digging in,
following the grain, or juddering. The gauges were still usable, just more work to use.

The easiest gauges were those with a well worn, short pin - just a nub, really. These were easy to use,
and left a clearer mark.

In hindsight, this is fairly obvious; a fine, long pin is likely to penetrate deeply, which serves no practical purpose;
the visibility of a mark is mainly determined by its *width* not its depth.

So we may have found that most unusual of tools, one which which works better when blunt. Should
save some arguments.  

I found the fact that the working point is hidden by the stem slightly disconcerting, since I'm used to being able
to see the point. However, I acknowledge that (in practice) the gauges are perfectly usable,
just not quite as easy to use (since the pin comes out the back of the stem, its position is "obvious" if
not actually visible). I'd probably get used to it, I suppose.

In short - as carpenters since the Mary Rose have known - the classic marking gauge works OK. What a surprise.

Here's a marking gauge from the Mary Rose (the museum was dark, so the picture is not great)







However, this does not mean it cannot be improved on.

The across the diagonal screw feature of the 5061
make the stem slide _perfectly_, without wobble, and is even tolerant of seasonal movement and inaccurate manufacture.
However, since it requires a little adapter piece, its invention probably had to wait on injection moulded
plastic (which is how Stanley make the little piece).

I also prefer the diagonal fixing of the pin; this not only makes it visible, but it builds
a high degree of "trail" into the design, making it far less prone to catching and juddering.

It is of note that the 5061 was not sold as a "premium" gauge, it was just Stanley's normal
offering, at a normal price. I have NO IDEA why they stopped making it.  

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

bugbear":2c8qplu9 said:


> ......
> It is of note that the 5061 was not sold as a "premium" gauge, it was just Stanley's normal
> offering, at a normal price. I have NO IDEA why they stopped making it.
> 
> BugBear


Lots of firms made them, I guess probably cheaper than the Stanley.

Re you prob with "juddering" and "following the grain" you just need a bit more practice, not a radical re-design! These problems are normal with absolute beginners but you will soon get the hang of it

What are you making BTW?


----------



## AndyT (11 Nov 2014)

Here's a better picture of the Mary Rose skantyllion:






and a line drawing






Both from: http://thomasguild.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-medieval-toolchest-marking-gauge-or.html

It's not possible to see whether the pin was round or filed to a knife shape. After five hundred years under water, it needs a little fettling.


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2014)

Jacob":21cxs0kx said:


> Re you prob with "juddering" and "following the grain"





BugBear":21cxs0kx said:


> The gauges were still usable, just more work to use.



No problem, just commenting on their performance.


BugBear


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2014)

AndyT":1wc07zrk said:


> Both from: http://thomasguild.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-medieval-toolchest-marking-gauge-or.html



Oh, that's very good; the way they've got it displayed now, you can't really see that it uses a stem-parallel wedge.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

AndyT":1658xki3 said:


> Here's a better picture of the Mary Rose skantyllion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's got the D section shaft which makes it self aligning when tightening, as well as being easier to hold. Or if not you just take off a gnats - a minutes work.
These very simple tools are often much more developed and sophisticated than they look. In fact good design in many areas is often not obvious, hence the novice tendency towards bells, whistles, shine and brass knobs. And frills


----------



## Sheffield Tony (11 Nov 2014)

bugbear":3fy8m6ut said:


> The across the diagonal screw feature of the 5061
> make the stem slide _perfectly_, without wobble, and is even tolerant of seasonal movement and inaccurate manufacture.
> However, since it requires a little adapter piece, its invention probably had to wait on injection moulded
> plastic (which is how Stanley make the little piece).



Does it _need_ the plastic adaptor piece ? the stem need not be square in section. The key is clamping into a corner by setting it on the diagonal; a big chamfer on the top edge of the sliding stem for the screw to clamp on to, and a hole in the stock shaped to match, with a nice fat boxwood screw ought to work reasonably ? You could even use the little captive wedge type clamping mechanism onto a chamfer.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

Sheffield Tony":1zyu69z5 said:


> bugbear":1zyu69z5 said:
> 
> 
> > The across the diagonal screw feature of the 5061
> ...


I haven't looked at it but it sounds over designed to me.


----------



## Racers (11 Nov 2014)

5601 clone.





You don't need a shoe if you plane a big flat on the edge used for clamping, but you will get problems with it moving when tightening, most gauges have a pad to stop this happening.

Oval with wedge.





Pin close up.





All home made, the oval one is the easiest to get the shaft at 90 degrees to the head the 5601 needs careful paring of the hole opposite to the screw.

Pete


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2014)

Racers":1mmnshyr said:


> 5601 clone.



I bet Stanley could injection mould those faster than you can solder 'em !!

Here's an image of the (over designed  ) 5061 components, courtesy Sellers.






BugBear


----------



## David C (11 Nov 2014)

Nice work Pete.

I find that old thick belts make very useful pads, to stop the wooden shaft from getting scored by plastic thumbscrew.

Rotating a squarish shaft does require less components, which I like.

David


----------



## paulm (11 Nov 2014)

Here's another homemade approach, if making again would try and use a bit more finesse on proportions, finish, and the pin !





















Cheers, Paul


----------



## Woodchips2 (11 Nov 2014)

That looks nice Paul albeit chunky =D> 

What's the advantage of having the pin at an angle rather than 90 degrees?

Regards Keith


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2014)

Woodchips2":5af7lj4h said:


> What's the advantage of having the pin at an angle rather than 90 degrees?



That was one of the main points of "discussion" in the rest of this thread!!

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

Woodchips2":1ortzubz said:


> That looks nice Paul albeit chunky =D>
> 
> What's the advantage of having the pin at an angle rather than 90 degrees?
> 
> Regards Keith


There isn't one really. The "improved" version is a bit notional. There are millions of them out there which nobody has felt the need to improve in this way.
Square shaft is a disadvantage as it could seat less well, as compared to the various rounded forms common, and also is less comfortable in the hand. This is important if you are doing a big batch - you could be marking up for several days.
The flat sided pin is problematic as it is quite common to want to make the same mark on different components e.g. a half housing, where the waste will be on opposite sides of the pin, so you would need two gauges. Endless confusion would ensue! Simpler to have a normal pin and see the centre of the line as the mark.
If you must have a pad of some sort then the mortice gauge type metal button would be good. Something about the size of a half-farthing** set into a recess. It'd stay in place until the shaft was pulled right out. But with a fat plastic or wooden screw this is not necessary as long as the end is nicely flattened off.
The wedge pattern is common with home-made ones as wood-screw taps/dies are not that common, but the wood/plastic screw is much superior in operation - coarse thread for rapid action and easy adjustment and wide flat end for grip. 
These tools are highly sophisticated having been developed in the hands of their users for many generations. So it's fairly ambitious to imagine that you can spirit up major improvements like these proposed*. And it's fatuous to blame the tool design for the difficulties of a beginner.

*PS but don't let that put you off tool fiddlers everywhere - it seems a harmless enough pastime!

PPS


Racers":1ortzubz said:


> ....
> You don't need a shoe if you plane a big flat on the edge used for clamping, but you will get problems with it moving when tightening, most gauges have a pad to stop this happening.....


No they don't. Many mortice gauges have a button (if it's not been lost which is often the case) but this is to protect the brass slide from the screw end. The screw has two function on a mortice gauge - to hold the body _and_ the second pin in place, so a finer thread giving greater pressure is needed.

**PPPS I'll change that to quarter farthing - they are bigger than I remember them!


----------



## David C (11 Nov 2014)

The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
Sight of the pin is a clear advantage to some workers.
The flatsided pin which is like the knife in a cutting gauge improves accuracy in fine work. A couple of extra gauges are not going to break the bank.
It has already been explained how a squareish shaft can be made to lock perfectly.
Removing a few arrisses is not difficult.
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.
I once talked with Peter Marples and he made it quite clear, that as long as he was selling x thousand a year he had no interest whatsoever in change.
The basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.

David


----------



## Ed Bray (11 Nov 2014)

Other than the cost £69 what do people think of this gauge from David Barron:

http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk/d ... pg=2&id=18


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

David C":3pa7dg0p said:


> ....
> The basic marking gauge is cheap and crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.
> 
> David


The basic marking gauge is a highly developed item - which is why it has barely changed from the Mary Rose example above, to the modern day. Millions of earlier woodworkers weren't all mad you know Dave, waiting for the new woodworkers to put things right! :lol:


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 Nov 2014)

If anybody would like to make a few wooden gauges but is scratching around for something to make the pin from, try masonry nails. 

They can be bought in small quantities from the sheds-on-the-bypass, and in larger quantities from almost any builder's merchants or interweb supplier, in several different sizes. If you buy galvanised ones by mistake (as I did!), pop a few in half a cupfull of vinegar overnight, and scrub off the resulting dark grey coating with a scrap of fine wet-and-dry - it comes off very easily. A good flush in clean water and a dry off, and you'll have enough for life. They'll make good trammel pins, too. 

They're hard, but not so hard that they can't be filed to the shape you prefer (like screwdrivers and saw blades), and if finished with a small slipstone take a nice edge and hold it a good while in service. To install in the end of a marking gauge shaft, drill a pilot hole a little smaller than the nail (you may need to try a couple in a piece of scrap to find the right drill size), then just tap the pin through to the desired projection with a small hammer. It's probably wise to do the final shaping after installation in the gauge stem, just in case it twists a bit on being driven through.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

Ed Bray":1pgq75aa said:


> Other than the cost £69 what do people think of this gauge from David Barron:
> 
> http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk/d ... pg=2&id=18


Expensive. Looks pointless. Looks uncomfortable to use. Would you want to mark up a huge stack of timber with it? I think not. Why bother when there's nothing wrong with the ordinary (cheap) pattern?
This thing about "seeing where you are marking" (seems to bother Dave too) is a bit of a non issue as you can usually see where you have been marking, from the position of the mark. If not then something has gone terribly wrong. :roll: Maybe a diagram would help?


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2c4v43t4 said:


> This thing about "seeing where you are marking" (seems to bother Dave too) is a bit of a non issue as you can usually see where you have been marking, from the position of the mark. If not then something has gone terribly wrong. :roll: Maybe a diagram would help?



It is a help to see what you're doing, though, especially on finer work. A bit like only sawing to lines you can see. It's one of those little tricks that assist in accurate work. If you're only working to plus-or-minus a clog tip, then it probably doesn't matter so much.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

David C":21wcwfmk said:


> T....
> The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.....


No it doesn't. I've got one which has been in regular use for 40 years (it's the one I use most often and I do do a lot of marking up). The screw has left a bit of a furrow down the side of the shaft*, but this has no bearing on the use of the tool, which would be good for another 40 years. A very good £2 worth of tool.

* both sides actually as I turned it around some time ago.


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2014)

Jacob":38q5tf0c said:


> David C":38q5tf0c said:
> 
> 
> > T....
> ...



If it was so un-damaged, why did you need to turn it around ... ?

Perhaps you could find a woodworker to make you a new one. :lol: 

BugBear


----------



## David C (11 Nov 2014)

Beech varies in density, and I have several stems which exhibit damage.

This interferes with smooth action and is a bad thing.

Leather washer solves problem, which exists in the real world, if not in Jacob's rarefied sphere.

David


----------



## lurker (11 Nov 2014)

Ed Bray":3sohc04h said:


> Other than the cost £69 what do people think of this gauge from David Barron:
> 
> http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk/d ... pg=2&id=18




The woodworker in me says its pointless 
The tool fiddler has put a couple on his project list (hammer)

But why on earth would any self respecting woodworker buy one


----------



## Woodchips2 (11 Nov 2014)

bugbear":10lypvsz said:


> Woodchips2":10lypvsz said:
> 
> 
> > What's the advantage of having the pin at an angle rather than 90 degrees?
> ...


Sorry I lost the will to live after the first half dozen pages :roll: I just liked the look of Paul's creation, it looks a man-tool.
Regards Keith


----------



## lurker (11 Nov 2014)

bugbear":2ueurbvz said:


> Jacob":2ueurbvz said:
> 
> 
> > David C":2ueurbvz said:
> ...




This is just childish points scoring


----------



## Noel (11 Nov 2014)

David C":2qihz2hc said:


> The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
> Sight of the pin is a clear advantage to some workers.
> The flatsided pin which is like the knife in a cutting gauge improves accuracy in fine work. A couple of extra gauges are not going to break the bank.
> It has already been explained how a squareish shaft can be made to lock perfectly.
> ...



David, speaking as a woodworker but, with respect, you do little to dispel the notion that there is some degree of snobbery or superiority amongst some woodworkers. Sure, you're very welcome to your opinion and that's something that'll never change for members on this forum, but your last sentence shows poor judgement. Are site workers some type of lower caste? I know many that take great care and pride in their work. They are no different from you or perhaps many of your students in how they approach and execute their work. Indeed there is one I know who would put many to shame with his level of craftsmanship.

On a general note I fail to see why some feel using "cheap" tools automatically means less skill and poor workmanship. When I first started this WW lark I was swayed by all the posts and magazine articles about buying the latest this and the newest that. Then I happened to meet a very well regarded bespoke furniture maker. I saw him making a chest of drawers for a client and I was surprised to see he was using a square with a plastic stock. He had plenty of other inexpensive tools too. To cut a long story short he told me- "they work, they do the job I want, to the accuracy I need and the wood doesn't ******** care, so why should I?" 

PS- he had a few cheap marking gauges too.....


----------



## iNewbie (11 Nov 2014)

Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 Nov 2014)

Noel":1agkxcv0 said:


> David C":1agkxcv0 said:
> 
> 
> > The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
> ...



Noel - far be it from me to criticise the mods, but in this instance I feel you're being a little unfair to David Charlesworth. He has had to endure a lot of needling from Jacob (constantly being called 'Dave', for example), and not just on this thread. The needling, sneering and veiled insult (phrases like 'crazy sharpeners', 'tool polishers' etc, used in a rather perjorative sense) been fairly constant for as long as I've been a member of this forum, and probably longer.

A couple of posts above these, another member suggested that there was some childish point-scoring going on. I rather feel that the whole thread has had that general tone. It was started (despite the title) purely to sneer at one particular tool - the wheel marking gauge.

I think the ideas that Jacob puts forward have validity, and certainly should not be censored. However, other ideas have equal validity, too. I feel it's unfortunate that Jacob feels he has to make his points by sneering and taking side-swipes at others; his message would carry more weight with me (and , I think, many others) if it were delivered in a rather more neutral manner.

Some time ago, on a similarly rambling thread, I posted something like this:

"Here is my method, it is effective and time-honoured, and I commend it to all." - great; we're all a bit wiser.

"Here is my method, it is effective and time-honoured, and you're crazy to do it any other way." - Hmm. Not so good.

I think Jacob has a lot to contribute, and the forum would be the poorer without his knowledge and experience. However, I'm sure we can all put forward our thoughts without the need to insult and demean others, or their different ideas about working wood. The reader can decide which approach suits their aspirations, needs and inclinations. I also feel that Jacob's needling tends to bring out the worst in some other contributors (though I can understand their irritation).

Noel - perhaps I might ask you to consider both sides of the argument? More generally, could we all try to respect different points of view and different approaches to working wood?


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2014)

iNewbie":34k7rwth said:


> Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.


Actually it's the other way round. If you bother to read the thread you'll find that I am criticising ideas and methods but not being offensive to anybody personally (except answering back - I'm no angel!). But a whole mob including yourself start getting on their high horses and being downright offensive even when, like you, they have got absolutely nothing interesting to say about anything much.
I wasn't rude to Dave at any point until he started on "The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking" etc etc.
Some people just can't handle being disagreed with. Some people need to grow up.

I was going to post some snaps of my gauges tomorrow, if the thread hasn't come to any harm overnight!

PS and it's not about "purely to sneer at one particular tool" ("sneer" is an odd term re criticising a tool!) it's about trying to reassert the value of the alternative - a simple and under-appreciated tool, and by implication, many other "ordinary" tools which tend to get dismissed by the new boys.


----------



## bugbear (12 Nov 2014)

Noel":1jakh78z said:


> David C":1jakh78z said:
> 
> 
> > The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
> ...



I think you're over reacting.There have been many posts (presuambly from tradesman) over the years stating very clearly that they choose to use cheaper, rougher tools on site than in their workshop.

BugBear


----------



## Noel (12 Nov 2014)

Cheshirechappie":2ulo3cjf said:


> Noel":2ulo3cjf said:
> 
> 
> > David C":2ulo3cjf said:
> ...



Hi CC. As mentioned in my post I was speaking as a woodworker, not as a mod. My post had nothing to do with Jacob, it was what I saw as a lack of judgement in David writing "the basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers".


----------



## David C (12 Nov 2014)

Noel,

I am very sorry if my comment appeared to be arrogant. It was not intended. I have the greatest respect for all trades, but was implying that different tolerances might apply.

The constant bellittling of people's worthwile efforts to improve a very crudely made tool, is thoroughly objectionable. 

David


----------



## RogerS (12 Nov 2014)

iNewbie":37n43wtp said:


> Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.



Was it ever thus.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (12 Nov 2014)

Noel - thank you for your reply. However, whether you type as a woodwoker or as a mod, on reflection I think my comment stands.

Jacob - the last sentence of my comment asked everybody to respect different points of view and different approaches to working wood. To be clear, that 'everyone' includes you, too. You have a valid point of view in your support of the wooden marking gauge, but it would have carried more weight if put forward in a more positive tone - you can extoll it's virtues without resort to the sneery (and I stand by the use of the word 'sneery') tone your original post took towards the wheel gauge. Others use and like wheel marking gauges, and they're perfectly entitled to their opinion, too.

I also think that since the thread has descended into 'discussion' not really related to marking gauges (or 'Core Tool Kits'!), it's maybe time it was locked, and we can all move on to other matters.


----------



## bugbear (12 Nov 2014)

In a bid to add actual information, I've photographed the (bottom of the) 5061 head.







Although hard to see, there's a 1/8" chamfer on all the corners of the stem,
which means that it can easily sit fully "home" in the corner.

This system means that the stem need only be sized to a couple of
mm accuracy, as long as the sides that engages the head mortise are near to perpendicular;
they have designed out the need for precision.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2014)

On the wheel gauge - Doug showed his Veritas this morning. Very pretty little tool in the Veritas "steam punk" house style - shiny steel, brass, black enamel, celtic lettering, very ornamental.
One glaring design fault - it's round and will roll off a bench. Result in this case - chipped wheel. Easy fix however - just file a flat on the fence. 
The actual cut it makes is very tiny and wouldn't do for many applications. Also the wheel is bevelled so the cut is to one side. You could turn the wheel to cut the other side but I guess it'd then tend to push away - I think others have confirmed this. A fix for this would be a central cutting wheel. Or drill a hole and insert a pin instead.
The adjustment is fiddly - the ordinary wooden gauge is quicker and easier (tapping the end for fine adjustment). You couldn't tap the end of the Veritas as one end has the wheel and in any case you wouldn't have the friction grip of a wooden shaft.
It's quite comfortable to hold but a bit tiny so I suspect with prolonged use you'd get cramped fingers. Maybe not.
Verdict: Doesn't do anything which an ordinary gauge won't do and more easily. Somewhat pointless but very ornamental.


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2014)

bugbear":gg3qapf8 said:


> In a bid to add actual information, I've photographed the (bottom of the) 5061 head.
> 
> View attachment 5061
> 
> ...


You could say much the same of the normal D section, which also doesn't need the clamping piece and so is simpler.


----------



## AndyT (12 Nov 2014)

Here's some more thoughts / info on some wooden marking gauges.

A while back I bought a box of about a dozen gauges on eBay for a fiver. As well as a nice mortice gauge it included these three:






They are all clearly marked by the previous owner:






They may well have been made by him - they use a wedge, which (as has been pointed out) needs no special thread cutting tools. (I've replaced the wedge on one.)

One of the benefits of buying old tools is that you can learn how someone else solved a problem. Mr Galloway clearly did not bother finding anything more exotic than a panel pin to make his gauges, but on all three of these, he did bother filing the pin into a knife shape:
















And they work well. This is across the grain on some ash - just right for marking the limit of dovetails






And this is with the grain - but not being deviated by it - on a piece of wavy oak:


----------



## Racers (12 Nov 2014)

Jacob":1swkw318 said:


> bugbear":1swkw318 said:
> 
> 
> > In a bid to add actual information, I've photographed the (bottom of the) 5061 head.
> ...




Mmm not sure I can agree with that Jacob, the screw can only clamp in one direction the other direction is limited by the fit of the shaft and hole.
Whereas the Stanley clamps in two directions, shame they stopped making it.

Pete


----------



## iNewbie (12 Nov 2014)

Jacob":341v1l36 said:


> iNewbie":341v1l36 said:
> 
> 
> > Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.
> ...



Um, no you are looking to be offensive and its your M.O. This forums littered with your other, side... 

Its not the disagreement on here its your written tone, you come across as a santimoanious knob. Your schick is basically nothing more than your own "Guru's" Paul Sellers mutterings, only, he does it with some class so he gets taken more seriously. At least he isn't suffering from Blinkered Vision on new tools or certain companies... 

Recommends a Clifton 4/4.5, and uses Veritas - silly man... :roll: 

https://paulsellers.com/2012/12/questio ... and-4-12s/






> On the wheel gauge - Doug showed his Veritas this morning. Very pretty little tool in the Veritas "steam punk" house style - shiny steel, brass, black enamel, celtic lettering, very ornamental.
> One glaring design fault - it's round and will roll off a bench. Result in this case - chipped wheel. Easy fix however - just file a flat on the fence.



The Mortice one won't and the SS Ltd Ed won't either - keep up! But then there are ways to stop it rolling off a bench if thats an issue for you...

http://www.billyslittlebench.com/blog/v ... ool-review 

Carry on...


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2014)

Racers":3m3725k6 said:


> Jacob":3m3725k6 said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":3m3725k6 said:
> ...


The screw pushes the shaft over until it's "cupped" in the side of the D. It's then very fixed and won't wobble even if it's a very loose fit to start with. I've got a dozen or so here - non of them wobble. They _could_ do if worn out of shape or wrong components put together, but then it'd be an easy fix with quick pass of the plane. It's sort of the same but different from your Stanley design.


----------



## bugbear (12 Nov 2014)

Jacob":13485xuj said:


> On the wheel gauge - Doug showed his Veritas this morning. Very pretty little tool in the Veritas "steam punk" house style - shiny steel, brass, black enamel, celtic lettering, very ornamental.
> One glaring design fault - it's round and will roll off a bench. Result in this case - chipped wheel. Easy fix however - just file a flat on the fence.
> The actual cut it makes is very tiny and wouldn't do for many applications. Also the wheel is bevelled so the cut is to one side. You could turn the wheel to cut the other side but I guess it'd then tend to push away - I think others have confirmed this. A fix for this would be a central cutting wheel. Or drill a hole and insert a pin instead.
> The adjustment is fiddly - the ordinary wooden gauge is quicker and easier (tapping the end for fine adjustment). You couldn't tap the end of the Veritas as one end has the wheel and in any case you wouldn't have the friction grip of a wooden shaft.
> ...



Agreed on most points, and especially the rolling body; it's very odd since their small 3-in-1 gauge has a round body with an offcentre stem
position which neatly solves the issue.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.a ... at=1,42936

BugBear


----------



## Kalimna (12 Nov 2014)

I would suggest that there is one thing the wheel gauge does that a 'standard' wooden gauge doesn't - acting as a depth gauge for simply transferring the thickness or depth of a piece of wood or mortise to another piece. For instance I have used it following the creation of a neck mortise in a guitar body for transfer to the neck tenon and also transferring whilst marking up dovetails. I know there are other methods, but I find using the wheel gauge very quick and easy for this.

Cheers,
Adam


----------



## bugbear (12 Nov 2014)

Jacob":l09945nf said:


> The screw pushes the shaft over until it's "cupped" in the side of the D. It's then very fixed and won't wobble even if it's a very loose fit to start with. I've got a dozen or so here - non of them wobble. They _could_ do if worn out of shape or wrong components put together, but then it'd be an easy fix with quick pass of the plane. It's sort of the same but different from your Stanley design.



This start to be interesting;

The relationship between the height and radius of the curve in both the stem and the mortice need to have quite a particular (and unobvious) mismatch in size and shape for the cupping to happen nicely; IMHO the 5061 system is simpler, but the 'D' can be made to work in this way.






So - upper picture is a simple, well fitted stem, which certainly won't wobble.

The lower picture is the rather more complex 5061-a-like scenario. Note where the stem does (and doesn't) touch the mortice.

I would welcome comment (votes?) from people as to how their D stem gauges are (in fact) behaving; the symptom to look for is the gap, labelled red in the lower diagram. (My box of gauges doesn't show any of the lower diagram cases; some of them aren't the upper case either :-( ).

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2014)

Exactly that. You've got it but there are variations!
The sides of some of my gauges have become grooved over the years from pressure of the screw. Paradoxically this makes them a better fit as the cupping impacts on the high points and can be more positive.


----------



## Noel (12 Nov 2014)

David C":61ublc8u said:


> Noel,
> 
> I am very sorry if my comment appeared to be arrogant. It was not intended. I have the greatest respect for all trades, but was implying that different tolerances might apply.
> 
> ...



No worries David.


----------



## bugbear (12 Nov 2014)

Jacob":3gxajzzl said:


> Exactly that. You've got it but there are variations!



What I've got i just a diagram - I'm not sure how well my diagram reflects reality; I certainly can't find any gauges that
work that way in my "collection".

I'd be interested to see diagrams (use mine as a start point?) of the other variations you have in mind.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2014)

I'll take a few photos when I have a spare moment.


----------



## John15 (12 Nov 2014)

Regarding wheel gauges rolling off the bench, there is one manufacturer, maybe Wood River, who puts a flat on the fence.

John


----------



## woodbrains (12 Nov 2014)

Hello,

It could be knocked off the bench, but in the 10 years I've enjoyed my wheel gauge, it has never rolled off, ever. To be fair, I'm not on board ship, so cannot comment in other situations than my LEVEL bench. I think Newton might have something to say about the likelyhood anything rolling off a level bench. 

The Stanley wooden gauge, 5061, is easily the best design of its type and any argument against it is rather purile. It is distilled to the simplest form it could be, always locks up tight and square, without any fettling or unnecessary tight tolerances, in fact it compensates for variation in tolerance for the tools life, which is likely to be extremely long as it also incorporates a device to combat wear. This device should be celebrated as a design icon IMHO as there are few tools that are as near a perfect device as this. With a bit of common sense, the pin, which protrudes at the back could be ground to a knife edge, on either end, but bevels on opposite sides. This would give us a gauge with the ability to scribe lines with the bevel in the waste, whether marking for dovetails (bevel towards fence) or gauging for thickness (bevel away from fence). This is a great gauge and Stanley should be urged to reintroduce it!

Surely the gauge with a D shaped stem would perform better with the screw opposite the D?

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":d0c0ul6f said:


> .... think Newton might have something to say about the likelyhood anything rolling off a level bench.


He'd patiently explain to you that they could get nudged. I've only seen one, and that had a chipped wheel. 100% failure rate!


> The Stanley wooden gauge, 5061, is easily the best design of its type and any argument against it is rather purile. It is distilled to the simplest form it could be, ....


No it's not as simple as the standard model - it has one more component with no particular gain that I can see. I'm sure it works perfectly but so do the others.

Why are so many on here so desperate to traduce the ordinary marking gauge, as used happily by millions over many generations - back to the Mary Rose (see above) and no doubt much older? "Cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers" according to one poster! It's a phenomenon in it's own right, which accounts for the length of this thread I guess.


----------



## iNewbie (12 Nov 2014)

Jacob":gaa4l8cb said:


> woodbrains":gaa4l8cb said:
> 
> 
> > .... think Newton might have something to say about the likelyhood anything rolling off a level bench.
> ...


*

I rest my case - on a sloping bench...*


----------



## Doug B (12 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":syks38h4 said:


> Hello,
> 
> It could be knocked off the bench, but in the 10 years I've enjoyed my wheel gauge, it has never rolled off, ever. To be fair, I'm not on board ship, so cannot comment in other situations than my LEVEL bench.



My bench is also level, unfortunately it also tends to get a little crowded & tools can & do occasionally get knocked from it, round tools being more prone to rolling off than the more not so round tools.




woodbrains":syks38h4 said:


> I think Newton might have something to say about the likelyhood anything rolling off a level bench.



Like "anything rolling off a bench will land heaviest end downhill & if that end has a hardened cutting wheel on it it will get chipped" or was his 4th law that of sod, either way I can confirm the marking wheel chips very nicely, thanks Mr Newton!!


----------



## Ed Bray (12 Nov 2014)

God knows what Jacob would think of one of my marking gauges?

http://www.igagingstore.com/AccuMarking ... 205149.htm

Like any item it could get accidently knocked off a bench, but it certainly isn't going to roll off :lol:


----------



## undergroundhunter (12 Nov 2014)

Ed Bray":2jihnrgt said:


> God knows what Jacob would think of one of my marking gauges?
> 
> http://www.igagingstore.com/AccuMarking ... 205149.htm
> 
> Like any item it could get accidently knocked off a bench, but it certainly isn't going to roll off :lol:



Wow igaging have gone barking mad, why would anyone need a digital marking gauge :?: :?: :?: 
I'm not sure about anyone else but one of the reasons I like hand tool woodworking is because I work with computers and technology all day every day and to have a few hours a week without anything electrical frying my brain (except the radio and a light) is very relaxing.


Matt


----------



## Racers (12 Nov 2014)

People with poor eye sight (like me as I get older) find digital gauges easier to read, plus the ability to zero the reading is useful.

Can't say I would buy one at the moment but some time in the future I might.

Pete


----------



## undergroundhunter (12 Nov 2014)

Racers":11bmjapb said:


> People with poor eye sight (like me as I get older) find digital gauges easier to read, plus the ability to zero the reading is useful.
> 
> Can't say I would buy one at the moment but some time in the future I might.
> 
> Pete



I can understand the need on something like a micrometer or a vernier caliper where good eyesight is a must for accuracy but why on a marking gauge. Does anyone ever need to mark anything in wood that accurately with a gauge? If you have I would be interested to hear what the situation was.

Matt


----------



## woodbrains (12 Nov 2014)

Hello,

A crowded bench is not the fault of the gauge, and if the cause of accidental droppage through knocking off, not restricted to one gauge over another. Knocking gauges off Crowded benches should be avoided, anyway, their settings become a nonsense once bashed. Tidy up!

IIRC the earlier incarnation of the Stanley 5061 had a D shaped shaft opposite the screw. The addition of the pad does have a good use; it protects the shaft from bruising and increases accuracy. A very bruised shaft is often difficult to set accurately, due to the screw 'finding' an existing hollow and moving into it, rather than following your intention. It also means the shaft does not need to very accurately match the mortice, variations in manufacture, seasonal changes abuse, are all mitigated and accuracy always ensured with a very humble plastic pad. 

Mike.


----------



## Racers (12 Nov 2014)

undergroundhunter":b85wqr62 said:


> Racers":b85wqr62 said:
> 
> 
> > People with poor eye sight (like me as I get older) find digital gauges easier to read, plus the ability to zero the reading is useful.
> ...



Like I said its easier to read, that to me is the main advantage.

Pete


----------



## Ed Bray (12 Nov 2014)

The digital gauge was cheaper than the Quangsheng gauge I got and you don't actually have to use the display if you don't want. It works well, and does have a nice shoulder to ride against the wood.


----------



## Chip shop (12 Nov 2014)

Fat ferret":1fbih4yz said:


> What no rasps? More rasps? Different rasps?
> 
> Forgot nail pullers and of course four and six foot spirit levels don't live in box :wink: .




No rasps in my core kit. Maybe I've missed a trick. Interesting thread though. My need to have tools are (and I'm sure I'll miss some out):

Chisels; 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" & 1"

Planes: No 4 & 5 Record + Chinese block.

Hammers: pin hammer, chisel hammer & claw hammer (shuttering hammer)

Sharpening: Oilstone in it's quaint little box

Screw drivers: Loads of 'em, plus one big pineappled unit for opening paint cans

Marking & measuring: 12" rule, a couple of Stanley tapes. Bahco combi square and a combi marking guage.

Other stuff would include a slate ripper, slate cutter and a drum of Acrypol.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (13 Nov 2014)

It might be interesting to for people to list what they've actually done without? I've managed 45yrs without a combination square, a bradawl, a No.5, or a block plane.


----------



## bridger (13 Nov 2014)

phil.p":2qgrctx4 said:


> It might be interesting to for people to list what they've actually done without? I've managed 45yrs without a combination square, a bradawl, a No.5, or a block plane.




As soon as I can figure out what tools I'm missing out on I'm going to go get one...


----------



## Doug B (13 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":3s878s82 said:


> A crowded bench is not the fault of the gauge



This is true, mainly the fault of a busy woodworker trying to earn a living.  



woodbrains":3s878s82 said:


> and if the cause of accidental droppage through knocking off, not restricted to one gauge over another.



It's more the roundness of this gauge only needing the slightest movement to get it rolling that's the problem, I don't think I've ever knocked a wooden gauge off the bench. :| 




woodbrains":3s878s82 said:


> Knocking gauges off Crowded benches should be avoided, anyway, their settings become a nonsense once bashed. Tidy up!



I will have to try harder or just not use round gauges or better still just get Jacob to clean up for me as I go along :?


----------



## Corneel (13 Nov 2014)

A tool I've never owned is an axe. 

Should remedy that sooner then later.


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2014)

So on the whole (not expecting to have the last word) I'd say this thread has gone some way to rescuing the reputation of the humble marking gauge and putting the wheel gauge in it's proper place i.e. steam punk fashion accessory but too heavy for ear rings.
Where do you wear yours, or do you just keep it in a sock?


----------



## iNewbie (13 Nov 2014)

_It's not about the tools..._


----------



## bugbear (13 Nov 2014)

woodbrains":38m7qa6x said:


> IIRC the earlier incarnation of the Stanley 5061 had a D shaped shaft opposite the screw.



No; at the risk of introducing more facts into this threa, here's the patent

http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPa ... 541&type=D

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2014)

There you go - 1950, just at the point of most rapid change from hand to machine work, too late!
Neat design (brass face set in?) but not enough of an improvement on the older patterns to generate big sales.


----------



## bugbear (13 Nov 2014)

Jacob":gfvjihg9 said:


> There you go - 1950, just at the point of most rapid change from hand to machine work, too late!
> Neat design (brass face set in?) but not enough of an improvement on the older patterns to generate big sales.



I don't like brass insets on things; they normally end up standing proud when the wood shrinks. I'd go for either a full brass face, or none.

How are those "variation" photos coming along? I'm still interested. (The more tool designs, the better IMHO).

BugBear


----------



## PAC1 (13 Nov 2014)

The cure for them rolling off the bench is a very old device called a tool well. The modern approach is to up end the gauge and place the pointy end in a dog hole. If you have Veritas round dog holes they are perfect. I fail to see how Veritas are responsible for you knocking the gauge off your bench and you can knock wooden ones off your bench just as easy


----------



## Peter Sefton (13 Nov 2014)

I tend to put mine in the well if possible, one of my students left his standing up in a dog hole and I almost took my eye out on it when looking in detail at a piece of work on his bench. OUCH! a dam good bruise on my temple.


----------



## iNewbie (13 Nov 2014)

I always buy slip-ons as laces are known to come loose.


----------



## PAC1 (13 Nov 2014)

Peter Sefton":36fngrxg said:


> I tend to put mine in the well if possible, one of my students left his standing up in a dog hole and I almost took my eye out on it when looking in detail at a piece of work on his bench. OUCH! a dam good bruise on my temple.


Ouch. I might re think that. Although I do tend to put things like that at the back of the bench rather than front..


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2014)

Ouch will this thread never end? 
As a matter of interest, I wonder whereabouts on their benches people put their tea cups (or mugs)? I used to put mine on a shelf until a cup of cocoa fell on my head. No warning on the tin!

BB I can't be bothered to take photos. It's getting seriously bonkers having to argue about and show how the screw will tighten a marking gauge. Think "wedge" if you are still worrying about it.


----------



## Doug B (13 Nov 2014)

iNewbie":3a8b0av7 said:


> I always buy slip-ons as laces are known to come loose.



If you tie a double bow your laces won't come loose.


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2014)

Doug B":33hxhdgf said:


> iNewbie":33hxhdgf said:
> 
> 
> > I always buy slip-ons as laces are known to come loose.
> ...


But don't tie them together or you might trip over.


----------



## Peter Sefton (13 Nov 2014)

Jacob":1zhlib5d said:


> Doug B":1zhlib5d said:
> 
> 
> > iNewbie":1zhlib5d said:
> ...



Thanks for the warning Jacob, they really should write that on the shoe box or give us some kind of instructions!


----------



## iNewbie (13 Nov 2014)

Doug B":2z2ki1r8 said:


> iNewbie":2z2ki1r8 said:
> 
> 
> > I always buy slip-ons as laces are known to come loose.
> ...



Actually they will - I Riverdance like a devil.


----------



## bugbear (14 Nov 2014)

Jacob":2b4yjpdl said:


> BB I can't be bothered to take photos.



That's a shame - I was hoping to explore the pros and con of various designs.

Still, if you can't be bothered, fair enough.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (14 Nov 2014)

bugbear":2nmhj7lm said:


> Jacob":2nmhj7lm said:
> 
> 
> > BB I can't be bothered to take photos.
> ...


'e's eggin me on!
Basically two points of contact (screw and one point on the body) and the thing can move. Three points (screw and two points ditto) and it's fixed. 
But to _design in _three points could lead one up the garden path - hence the popularity of things which can be _seen_ to have a rationale (1001 gadgets; wheel gauges, sharpening jigs, you name it) but which aren't necessarily any good. 
But the ordinary marking gauge prioritises user convenience and value for money (simple construction, rounded profiles, coarse screw for fast action, overall geometry etc) and the essential three point fit is almost an accident due to the right level of mismatch of components. Not obvious at all _except that it works_ - but that's not good enough for some!


----------



## bugbear (14 Nov 2014)

Jacob":3kvr9nm3 said:


> But the ordinary marking gauge... and the essential three point fit is almost an accident due to the right level of mismatch of components.









As I said, (but I'll repeat for emphasis) while my lower diagram shows a theoretical possibility, I can't find an actual
real-life example; the upper diagram shows a much simpler, practical system for a locking fit, and I have
a whole boxful of gauges that lock this way (although some don't lock at all).

This theoretical locking model requires far closer tolerances that the simple 'V' of the 5061 approach.

Further, it would be simple to make quite minor changes to the 'D' design to ensure that it did indeed
definitely lock in a "wedged" fashion, and that doesn't need close tolerances, but they don't exist "in the wild".






So, on the balance of present evidence I believe the upper digram to represent
the real world truth.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (14 Nov 2014)

bugbear":13sr2xij said:


> ...
> So, on the balance of present evidence I believe the upper digram to represent
> the real world truth.
> 
> BugBear


No it's a diagram. Look at your gauges instead.


----------



## Noel (14 Nov 2014)

Jacob, go and get your camera and do the picture thing.


----------



## bugbear (14 Nov 2014)

Jacob":1lu5bxxx said:


> bugbear":1lu5bxxx said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



I _did_ (and I thought I'd made that clear :roll: ); they match the upper diagram.

If you have something different in mind, a description, photograph, sketch or diagram
would help further the discussion.

BugBear


----------



## Doug B (14 Nov 2014)

Noel":2qz3cnjr said:


> Jacob, go and get your camera and do the picture thing.



No forget the camera get the bloody stairs made


----------



## Jacob (14 Nov 2014)

Doug B":1f1wv6y3 said:


> Noel":1f1wv6y3 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, go and get your camera and do the picture thing.
> ...


Yep. And it's banjo night tonite! Steamboat hornpipe and Turkey in the Straw.
Practice practice!


----------



## Phil Pascoe (14 Nov 2014)

Definition of perfect pitch - a banjo in a skip from 30yds.


----------

