# saw sharpening - files from Axminster



## bugbear (1 Dec 2005)

Since I purchased these files from Axminster, I though I'd put my initial results up, in case they help anyone.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html

BugBear


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## MikeW (1 Dec 2005)

Hi BB,

Just a fwiw, the files from LN are Grobet, the files from Pete Taran are Bahco. Great sizes and small gullet radius.

I haven't measured the difference, if there is any it is small.

The Nicholsons I get are from a local hardware store. They too are good, but the local store only stocks down to a 5" X-slim.

Here's a graphic at LN site. They sell all the files for what I consider a good price considering they are Grobet.







Pete also has the same sizes in the Bahco brand. I heartily recommend either.

It is a pity decent files (of any kind) have gotten so difficult to obtain. But the point here is that maybe the vendors who are selling LN tools there in the UK could be encouraged to stock some saw files?

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (1 Dec 2005)

MikeW":2yhimm96 said:


> But the point here is that maybe the vendors who are selling LN tools there in the UK could be encouraged to stock some saw files?


I think Mike Hancock might be the best bet. :-k

Thanks for the info, BB. Bit disappointing though. :? 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (2 Dec 2005)

> Just a fwiw, the files from LN are Grobet



Searchy, searchy.

The world just keeps getting interesting:

http://www.fine-tools.com/feile2.htm



> The precicion files made by VALLORBE GROBET



http://www.patienceandnicholson.co.nz/files.html



> VALLORBE SWISS
> An imported range of Engineers files from Vallorbe. Vallorbe is an industrial region in Switzerland famous for iron foundries and tool producers since the 16th century. Vallorbe is also the world renowned brand name for files produced by Usines Metallurgiques de Vallorbe.
> 
> This company, made up of Grobet, Glardon and Borloz, the three principal manufacturers in the region at that time, was formed in 1899 to expand their sales of files well beyond the Swiss border. The new company zealously guarded their technology, trademarks and traditions.



So it appears that Vallorbe and Grobet (as companies) merged a long time ago, and perhaps use "Grobet" and "Vallorbe" as brands, in the same way that upmarket Fords are called Jaguar and Volvo.

And indeed upmarket Falcon bicycles are called "Claud Butler".

BugBear (who owns a Claud Butler made the Claud Butler company)


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## bugbear (2 Dec 2005)

tippety- tappety:

http://grobetusa.com/Products/tapersawsinglecut.html

BugBear (searching)


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## MikeW (2 Dec 2005)

Hi BB,

And perhaps another interesting tidbit is, does Grobet make the files sold in the US at their Wyoming plant?

Well, maybe not interesting. And then, where do they source the steel for the files. Too much thinking on my part. Whoever/whereever they are made, decent files.

Of course, if you are very careful, you could always use 3-square files for the ultimate in small gullets. Only drawback I've heard is the lack of a radius possibly can result in cracks--a radiused corner being more likely to relieve the stress on the metal.

But I don't know. Seems the problem can be resolved by using a smaller file than one would otherwise use. The corner radius on the smaller file being, well, smaller.

Take care, Mike


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2005)

MikeW":2fgby446 said:


> Hi BB,
> 
> And perhaps another interesting tidbit is, does Grobet make the files sold in the US at their Wyoming plant?
> 
> Well, maybe not interesting. And then, where do they source the steel for the files.



With modern metallurgical analysis, I wouldn't worry about the "where". This mattered in the old days, since ores from various countries had various chemicals which affected matters. We control steel production a little differently now ;-)



> But I don't know. Seems the problem can be resolved by using a smaller file than one would otherwise use. The corner radius on the smaller file being, well, smaller.
> 
> Take care, Mike



That would trade one problem for another. To get economic use from your files, it is desirable that the edge of the file be a little more than twice the side of a tooth.

Nicely illustrated by the Norse Woodsmith:

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbas ... wfiles.gif

BugBear


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## Scrit (5 Dec 2005)

Bugbear

Any comments about the other American saw file makes, Simmonds?

Scrit


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2005)

Scrit":39bu8xol said:


> Bugbear
> 
> Any comments about the other American saw file makes, Simmonds?
> 
> Scrit



I have used neither Nicholsons, Simonds, nor Grobet. Indeed, the Axminster Vallorbes were the first new files I've bought.

Saw files (all be it slightly worn) come up at at boot sales... Most of mine are either Tyzack or Stubs.

BugBear


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## MikeW (5 Dec 2005)

> With modern metallurgical analysis, I wouldn't worry about the "where".


What? Me worry?

Wasn't the point. Not that I was overly trying to make one. If there was a point it would be the issue of differing manufacturing plant, hence perhaps different tolerances on the radii of the varius files sizes.

There are times to not worry about the size of the file (going smaller that is). For instance, when one wants a smaller gullet :lol: 

And the whole issue might not be a real issue anyway.

The portion of a file that wears the fastest--indeed to the point of uselessness--is the corner. I would reackon to say I have never really wore out the face of a saw file. Ever. Not filing a saw. (There was a couple I used for other filing purposes, but that don't count :wink: )

The files do need a cleaning, as any file. But the corners will wear to the point of being too large, dull, or have broken teeth before the faces. The broken file teeth at the corner are easy to do with too much pressure on a 3xx. A file gets progressively stronger teeth with larger files.

Well, that's my experience anyway.

Take care, Mike


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## engineer one (5 Dec 2005)

for those who use mail order, the london company of Shesto 
sell good quality files, and keep many small sizes in stock.
paul :lol: 
ps Mike W, are you sure you are not spending too much time
sharpening your saws??? :lol:


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## MikeW (5 Dec 2005)

engineer one":2h20m2aq said:


> ...ps Mike W, are you sure you are not spending too much time sharpening your saws??? :lol:


Hey Paul,

:lol: My saws? Well, I did sharpen two of my own last night...does that count? Other people's...now that's a different story.

Take care, Mike


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## engineer one (6 Dec 2005)

hey mike w. i must not make too many comments, i just spent a 
while sharpening six really beaten up marples and stanley chisels
(with plastic handles) tonight.

daft what you do for clients isn't it???

at least with the chisels, i can't file holes in my hands 
(tormek rules KO) :lol: at least for retail sales!!!!!! :lol: :lol: 

all the best
paul


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## bugbear (6 Dec 2005)

MikeW":mftbyyjc said:


> > With modern metallurgical analysis, I wouldn't worry about the "where".
> 
> 
> What? Me worry?
> ...



Well, you _did_ say:



> And then, where do they source the steel for the files.



Which _is_ a question, so I tried to address it.

BugBear


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## Alf (2 May 2006)

Resurrecting this thread from the past 'cos I've been busily trying to track down a UK stockist for double extra slim taper files and I thought it would be best to keep similar info all together.

First up, having tracked down Vallorbe's catalogue, can anyone tell me how exactly three square files differ from saw files? Here's the PDF of the relevant bit of their catalogue and the only likely "saw files" I can find are described on page 17. Now they use the term "saw" for the chain saw files a few pages later, so why not here? Maybe because they're not? I dunno, it just struck me that maybe the reason they're not very good saw files is 'cos they're not saw files...

Secondly, I emailed both Bahco and the Nicholson folks (Coopers?) about sourcing their respective XX slims in the UK, having first assertained product numbers from their catalogues so I sounded like I knew what I was talking about. Haven't heard from Nicholson yet but from Jo at Bahco Tools Ltd gave me "Mr Dennis Wells of DWServices, he runs a mail-order service in conjunction with us and im sure he will be able to help you, his contact details are as follows;Tel: 07715 377 548". I haven't called yet - mobile number and no address? Erm... :? But of course Bahco apparently only do 5" and 6" anyway, and really I want 4"  So I'm hanging on with finger's crossed for Nicholson. :roll:

Anyway, fwiw. I'll be paying for Swiss files to be shipped back across the Atlantic over my dead body... :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (2 May 2006)

Three square files come to a sharper edge. Unless one buys cheap made in China ones [there are good made in China ones though] and in that case there is not a lot of difference.

A 6" three square will possibly leave a large enough gullet radius to avoid creating a stress point which can crack the saw plate, but a good quality 4" three square may not as it is that much smaller an edge.

Take care, Mike


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## MikeW (2 May 2006)

Alf":2yzl04iy said:


> ...Anyway, fwiw. I'll be paying for Swiss files to be shipped back across the Atlantic over my dead body... :wink:
> 
> Cheers, Alf


I could always go down to my corner hardware store and pick up some Nicholsons for you. That way they at least originated here :lol: 

Take care, Mike
running very fast...


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## Alf (3 May 2006)

Thanks, Mike  and also Thanks, Mike :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (3 May 2006)

Alf,
If prepared to import, don't forget Japanese saw files - http://tinyurl.com/z6pcd


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## PeterEvans (3 May 2006)

I have collected a large number of unused NOS saw files from a number of brands, and just use them without getting obsessive.

3 Square files are double cut (saw files are single cut) machinist files. These files are used in saw sharpening machines and Ulmia recommend their use for their frame saws. They have a sharp edge and cut aggressively and rougher than saw taper files.

A friend uses nothing else, he/we have a source for very cheap - $A4 - larger size Austrian files (forget brand for the moment). He did relent and used a 4" x slim taper file for a dovetail saw, but it was touch and go. He usually uses a 12" 3 square for everything.


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## Newbie_Neil (3 May 2006)

Hi Peter

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (3 May 2006)

PeterEvans":5b9rziwp said:


> I have collected a large number of unused NOS saw files from a number of brands, and just use them without getting obsessive.


Now don't let BB hear you say that... :lol: Welcome to the forum, Peter.

Anyway, I've now heard from "Moira" at Cooper Tools:

"Thanks for you recent email regarding nicholson files. Plse note 0011120500 is now obsolete <5" - see page 17 of the catalogue PDF>, however, there is still stock of 48 available.

Unfortunately we do not deal direct. Plse contact the following toolbank call centre number and they will be able to advise you of a local supplier:

Tel: 0845 658 0357"

Now every one of the local stockists that "Jo" at Bahco sent me are Toolbank too. Nowhere on the Toolbank site do any double extra taper saw files get listed though, so how do I get hold of them? It's no good trying my local stockist - it's hard enough to get them to order something _in_ the catalogue. DAMHIKT... So next step is to email Toolbank ('cos I hate telephones). Isn't this fun? :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## engineer one (3 May 2006)

ok alf, after all my talk, i finally checked out the SHESTO site.

they only do Vallorbe, but their triangular normal range products are
from about £12.00-15.00 plus shipping.

their phone number is 02084516188
email [email protected]

they have a decent website, and you should look under the hobby part,
although you could also check their jewellery products too. some of the tools there are VERY nice.

better than trying to get a tb responce.  
paul :wink:


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## Alf (3 May 2006)

Paul,

Yep, I already checked out Shesto's site - no saw files at all. At least Toolbank do stock them, just not XX slim. Heck, TB may surprise us all, who knows? I've not yet reached the point of despair by any means; still plenty of options to try. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (3 May 2006)

Thanks BB. Will order these files as just getting into saw sharpening


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## Alf (3 May 2006)

Hah! Humble pie all round for those who doubted Toolbank - "Stuart" has got back to me already:



Stuart":1rhjd294 said:


> Dear Sir, (I signed my enquiry with my full name - would it be _very_ bad to email back thanks starting "Dear Madam" to "Stuart"? :twisted: )
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry.
> 
> ...


Spot the drawback? Yes, the *outrageous prices*. Well they reckon they've got me over a barrel, haven't they? B****y Toolbank. You may spit out the humble pie. :evil: On the other hand it wouldn't take many files to go over the £45 point and get free delivery... :roll: :lol: I think'd probably work out cheaper going to LV ( and finally placing an order with them  ) and get an auger bit file while I'm at it.

Ah, bother it, I'll just use the extra slim from Axminster and stop trying to do the thing properly - I don't have the capital to support a saw file habit in this country... But there you are, if _you_ have, now you know where to go. :roll:

Cheers, Alf


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## Matt1245 (4 May 2006)

Only just caught up with this thread. Alf - as your local toolbank stockist (360 ish miles away) let me know what you need and i'll sort you out a better price and some nice e-bay style packaging.

Matt.


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## Alf (4 May 2006)

Matt1245":2ads46mb said:


> Only just caught up with this thread. Alf - as your local toolbank stockist (360 ish miles away) let me know what you need and i'll sort you out a better price and some nice e-bay style packaging.


Matt, I'll PM you - if I can get this internet connection to stay on long enough... :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (23 Oct 2006)

bugbear":ovse3d7o said:


> Since I purchased these files from Axminster, I thought I'd put my initial results up, in case they help anyone.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html
> 
> BugBear



Moving on, I bought the smallest Grobet (LN) files from Classic Handtools (pricy...) But nice and small and good.

Returning to my workshop, I find I'm an silly person.

The APTC Swiss/Vallorbe files are (in fact) branded as Grobet.

In fact they are the same as the LN files.

So - APTC clearly have the "right" supply lines in place, from the right source.

All we have to do is HASSLE them to get the smaller sizes. Cause big 'ol APTC is a lot cheaper than a hand-tool boutique (sorry Mr Hancock).

BugBear


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## David C (23 Oct 2006)

The precision swiss files from Dick & Shesto are remarkable things.

There are about four grades finer than a UK Fine or Smooth grade, though Swiss & German grading seem to be different.

Their ordinary very fine files have wonderful much sharper square cutting edges, making tidy rightangled corners feasible which is not really possible with UK standard files. I keep an extra fine grade for tidying the corners of plane throats.

Know less than nothing about saw filing, and a fair bit about stoning off excessive set and evening up uneven set. This was necessary with most UK dovetail saws over the last 30 years. Finally I think manufacturers are paying more attention?

Has anyone used the £85 dovetail saw from Thomas Flynn please?
David C


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## Ian Dalziel (23 Oct 2006)

> Has anyone used the £85 dovetail saw from Thomas Flynn please



wish that was all it was when i bought mine  it did however come in a nice black case but not worth the extra £50.

only used it for a test cut so far but your welcome to give it a workout if you can sharpen when you return it.

I


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## bugbear (24 Oct 2006)

bugbear":39llv7nn said:


> bugbear":39llv7nn said:
> 
> 
> > Since I purchased these files from Axminster, I thought I'd put my initial results up, in case they help anyone.
> ...



Blech;
the idiocy continues!

I bought the 5" and 6" - I bought the smallest they had (unlabelled in a carrier bag!), but the assistant didn't know which was which.

The 5" has a 4" long cutting surface, which is how the assistant and I convinced ourselves it was a 4" file.

But comparing the 2 new files to my APTC files, my 2 APTC 4" are an inch shorter than the smallest file from Classic Hand Tools.

This does confirm however, that the C H T files are indeed much narrower, size for size.

BugBear


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## Good Surname or what ? (24 Oct 2006)

Just to add confusion about what LN actually supply....

I recently got some files direct from LN. (shipped to my office in the states and a kindly friend brought them back along with other goodies - a very nice saving over buying in UK  - but thats another story)

I have 2 full sets; one with handles and one without. Both sets contain both Grobet and Nicholson files. 

Of the unhandled files ;all were Grobet except the smallest (4inch double-extra-slim,) which was Nicholson.

Of the handled files; both the largest and smallest were Nicholson.


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## Alf (24 Oct 2006)

Sheesh, that's really annoying about the Nicholsons - I was hoping they were a one off, 'cos frankly I haven't been impressed with them at all. Too aggressive.

Not a happy bunny, Alf


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## David C (24 Oct 2006)

The skilled art of "Fitting" having virtually ceased to exist, I wonder who cares much about files anymore except for trad clockmakers and saw filers?

Not many of either species left?

David C

I think fitters might have been very skilled at fettling.....


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## engineer one (25 Oct 2006)

actually david it is interesting that many of the fitters tools are
similar to those of the cabinet maker.

i was trained to use files, for the woodworker these would be rasps.
and finally we would use various kinds of scrapers, including the 
3 sided ones, and not quite a cabinet scraper, but a flat one which 
allowed for more sane use.

as a trainee i had to cut and file a cube of metal with only a hacksaw
and a "turnip" file about 12 inches long, plus of course a micrometer,
and square. amazing what you can do to make a 1 inch cube square
in all directions. :twisted: :roll: :lol: 

actually one of the areas where files and scrapers are used quite a lot
in modelling, railways in particular, for bearings, solder removal
and metal removal.

paul :wink:


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