# Japanese Saws vs. Western Saws



## Scrit (16 Jul 2007)

I am reviewing my hand tool kit and one question which has popped-up in my mind yet again is whether or not to make the switch from European saws to Japanese saws. I currently use a good selection of (mainly) vintage quality European-pattern saws including dovetail saws, tenon saws, panel saws, crosscus and a couple of rippers. Almost all of them are filed and set for hardwood. I do carry a couple of cheapo Japanese saws (with induction-hardened teeth) in my site kit for use on softwoods, but I wondered exactly how good Japanese saws are on hardwoods and what advantages there are to buying quality blades over cheaper ones (and for that matter what makes were the best and which to avoid). Ideally if I'm going to make the change I'd like to replace my dovetail and carcass (back/tenon) saws first (that's 4 saws in total), followed later by the panel and rip saws. The work I envisage is mainly hardwoods, so, who has experience of these and what do you think?

Scrit


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## dchenard (16 Jul 2007)

Scrit":e9j0t91p said:


> I am reviewing my hand tool kit and one question which has popped-up in my mind yet again is whether or not to make the switch from European saws to Japanese saws. I currently use a good selection of (mainly) vintage quality European-pattern saws including dovetail saws, tenon saws, panel saws, crosscus and a couple of rippers. Almost all of them are filed and set for hardwood. I do carry a couple of cheapo Japanese saws (with induction-hardened teeth) in my site kit for use on softwoods, but I wondered exactly how good Japanese saws are on hardwoods and what advantages there are to buying quality blades over cheaper ones (and for that matter what makes were the best and which to avoid). Ideally if I'm going to make the change I'd like to replace my dovetail and carcass (back/tenon) saws first (that's 4 saws in total), followed later by the panel and rip saws. The work I envisage is mainly hardwoods, so, who has experience of these and what do you think?
> 
> Scrit



My limited experience...

I've been attracted to Japanese saws for quite a while, because of their thin kerf (less effort) and the finish quality of the cut. But like anything else, cheap ones will put you off.

I had a LN dovetail saw. I speak in the past, because that saw has been sold. I thought it was fussy to start in a cut, did not cut that fast, and the blade became quite a bit warm after a cut. As far as western dovetail saws go, the LN is among the better ones, so there was no point for me in trying another brand.

Then I tried the rip dozuki sold here by Lee Valley. Man oh man, what a saw... It truly cuts like the wind, tracks straight and true, a pure joy to use. It's more than worth its $90 price tag. I don't know if you can get it on your side of the pond, I sure hope so. Everyone who tried that saw wants one, at one point I met with a guy who had something like 20 Japanese saws, and he was blown away. 

One of his saws that fared well was one by Gyokucho, I believe this is that one: 

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=19.371.0&dept_id=13085

For crosscutting tasks, I'm still debating... I bought a Z Saw crosscut dozuki, and while it does smooth and fast cuts, for some reason it feels less natural than western saws. Maybe it's just a question of getting used to it, but I haven't sold my western back saw yet...

When it comes to large scale work, I'm not sure that Japanese saws have an edge. For one, these saws have no backs so the blades need to be thicker, negating in my view one main advantage. But for smaller, precision work, Japanese saws are the cat's meow...

I hope Wiley chimes in, he knows a whole lot about all these saws.

DC


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## mr.nfla (16 Jul 2007)

For my experience of seller and user, I always advice japanese saws.
The real secret is using the right Japanese saws depending on the job you're doing. In my lab I've got 15 Jap saws, and after long years of work, I've learned choosing the right saw depending on the piece I'm working on.
They have a minimum price compared toan european quality saw, like Pax or Flinn.
A crown, which has a minor price, must be prepared accurately for obtaining good results. This takes time and requires technical knowledge.

Regards to all UK forum!

Federico


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## whybob71 (16 Jul 2007)

Actually I use both type of saws:

1) European saws
pro: the cut is fast and precise, especially if you are dealing with thick timber. For most of DT work I prefer an Adria saw.
con: the surface of the cut is often rough (this is not a priority if you are dealing with most of the joints); the start of the cut is often difficult (especially for some DT saws sharpened with an aggressive profile).

2) Japanese saws
pro: some saws have affordable prices and good quality; the surface of the cut is clean (these saws are perfect for exposed joints). If you are working with thin timber and veneers these saws are often the best.
con: the cut is slow, often not precise in deep cuts. The handle is not comfortable for all-day work.


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## ByronBlack (16 Jul 2007)

The best dovetail/tenon saw I've used is a sunchild dozuki - the blade is designed to work well with hardwoods, as most dozuki are only good for softwood. The sunchild is available from thanet tools - and is very cheap (about £25 I think, and takes replaceable blades).

For ripping and some large cross-cuts I use a Ryoba which seems to be ok.

Personally, I think I prefer the pulling action of japanese saws, and the thinner kerfs make joints a little easier to get first time around. IMVHO.


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## David C (16 Jul 2007)

Scrit,

I find that the Sunchild is the only Japanese saw (that I have tried) which does a good job of dovetailing in thin (8mm approx) hardwood.

Many Japanese saws sold in UK are for crosscutting softwood.

David Charlesworth

More like £32 or so from Thanet. Replacement blades approx £14.


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## dchenard (16 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":3s8u4rgh said:


> as most dozuki are only good for softwood.



I would dispute that assertion. While it is true that the Japanese use mainly soft woods, the saws themselves are usually of the "universal" type, made for both softwoods and hardwoods. This, at least in the saws available commercially. 

When it comes to very high end saws, done by hand, then the teeth are formed and set according to the type of wood used. I am trying to get Yataiki (reputed as being the best saw maker ever) to make me two dozuki (crosscut and rip), and I did specify hardwood teeth.

On "consumer grade" saws, you can get either rip, crosscut, or "combination" teeth. From what I've heard, the latter type are not that good apparently.

The sunchild is indeed a good saw, BTW.

DC


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## Anonymous (16 Jul 2007)

I have a few Japanese saws, I like them a lot, mainly used for fine cuts on beads, or trimming off overhangs, dowels, pegs etc. but I have found that a Japanese saw is fantastic at swatting flys/wasps in mid air, once you get your eye in a quick manic flailing action and you usually down the little bug**rs. :lol:


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## woodbloke (16 Jul 2007)

senior":27rp52uq said:


> I have a few Japanese saws, I like them a lot, mainly used for fine cuts on beads, or trimming off overhangs, dowels, pegs etc. but I have found that a Japanese saw is fantastic at swatting flys/wasps in mid air, once you get your eye in a quick manic flailing action and you usually down the little bug**rs. :lol:



Senior's defo cracked it this time :lol: I went down the Jap saw route a few years ago and was disappointed, they work very well on a decent bit of softwood (for which they are primarily designed and used in Japan as I understand) but don't seem to work nearly as well in hardwoods used in Europe and 'Murica so I've sold all mine and now use only LN or similar bench saws and have a couple of Disston cross-cut and panel saws - Rob


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## pam niedermayer (17 Jul 2007)

I prefer Japanese saws, much easier to use and gain excellent results, very fast in operation; but I've also used western saws to very good effect, they were just a little harder to use. I've noticed no significant difference in using them on hardwood or softwood, but I've not ripped a 6' long board lately either. I think the LN straight handled dovetail saw is just about perfect for that job. So my attitude is to pick what you like and get back to work.

Pam


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## sparky (17 Jul 2007)

well here is my thought

i started with some japanese saws and the more i used them for joinery the less i liked them. now i use a ryoba for basic triming and i especially like the speed of these saws for crosscutting.

however: for dovetails i tried a nice dozuki and was very dissapointed. so i went with a DT saw from mike wenzloff (bit of a gloat :wink: ) and i knew that i had found what i was looking for. 

for me i started with japanese saws and now i am in the middle of the switch to western saws almost exclusively. 
i can't say enought about the quality of wenzloff's saws. especially when i compaired it to a LN DT saw. the LN seemed to be much lower quality (don't mean to start trouble 8-[ )

im leaving now :-# 

sparky


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## Alf (17 Jul 2007)

Can only speak for myself, but the fact I can sharpen and maintain Western saws myself makes it a "no brainer". I dunno, Scrit, but if you do decide to change first dibs on your unwanted old ones, eh? 

Cheers, Alf


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## Scrit (17 Jul 2007)

This has proven to be an interesting discussion, so far. As I said I have little experience of Jap. saws but they seem to be praised and reviled in equal measure. The main part of my work is in hardwoods and it seems that Jap saws are really better suited to softwoods. Perhaps I should be lusting after an Adria, Wenzloff or LN, then? :lol: 



Alf":2r6ip2hw said:


> I dunno, Scrit, but if you do decide to change first dibs on your unwanted old ones, eh?


Don't ring me, I'll ring you...... :wink: 

Scrit


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

Scrit, I think DC (Charlseworth) might be able to give you good advice on which saws are good on which hardwoods. I had a long disucssion with B.Luckhurst on this very subject, and along with the research that i've read from DC and Luckhurst; i've concluded from their results, that most Jap saws available aren't suited for hardwood in this country, so you have to either talk to a really good dealer who knows the origins of the saw, or go by recommendations. The only dovetail/dozuki I have read/told is good for hardwoods is the aforementioned Sunchild.

Personally, if i were in your situation with a good selection of western saws, I would slowly add a mid-range japanese saw for a particular task and see if you prefer it over the western. These things have mystical value to them so you can almost always recoup what you paid via evilBay.


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## Philipp (17 Jul 2007)

Only my impression: the reason for Japanese saws being preferred more and more by western woodworkers is because they are the only affordable saws that can be successfully used directly from the packaging. Thus, they are ideal industrial products (and, by the way, they are being marketed superbly as well).
Ok, never owned (and probably never will) a Wentzloff or similar hand saw, but all western saws that I had in my hands needed preparation like sharpening or reducing the set etc. before they became usable tools. Since probably only a few hobby-woodworkers know that these saws need preparation they will never have an idea about the good results that can be achieved with such a tool when put into correct working condition. The same applies to other tools, like chisels and planes. Being used “from the shelf” without sharpening etc. they will lead to frustration.

I also started with JS and praised them for their great performance, the slim sawing kerf and the smoothness of the cut, yes, I was so impressed that I didn’t realise that the planes after the cut indeed where smooth – but not flat. And flat planes are the goal, not smooth and shiny but bumby ones. It took a while for me to understand this. And despite growing experience I even today hardly manage to make a deeper and longer cut in hardwood with a JS not deflecting from the line.
So I began to look for old European and American hand saws and at the same time started to deal with saw sharpening. And I must say, this was a glance into a new world! My first attempts of saw filing were rather poor, but I am learning step by step what is essential and what is not. And with regard to deep cuts in hardwood my western saws clearly outperform my JS. They track the line much better, do not cut more slowly and I have to spend much less effort refinishing of the workpiece.
And they are much more beautiful!

I won’t give away my collection of JS but I will not invest much more money into these saws. New ones will be western ones – and old ones!

Regards

Philipp (off for lunch-break and reworking a handle of a – western – dovetail saw.


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## engineer one (17 Jul 2007)

scrit, very personal thought on the other side of the coin.

as has just been said, japanese saws basically come ready to use out of the box, but the down side is getting them sharpened, do you really want to send them back to japan :twisted: 

many people start out with them because after trying "normal" saws at woodworking lessons many years ago, they feel there must be a better way. it is only when you use a properly sharpened european saw that you understand how they can be. but jet saws etc are still difficult to use from the get go without practice.

you have a long time in practising with european saws, thus it will be basically learning a new skill where as your time might be better spent in getting one or more of the modern limited edition saws that suit your long established style.

the kerf and finish of japanese saws is definately better than that of a western style cut, however it does take practice to get them to cut straight and true. the action although is valuable, especially if you have any problems with your wrists or elbows( poor auld s*d) where the action is somewhat more comfortable. since it is in more of a straight line.

however for hard wood my feeling is that experience is what counts, and you cannot overnight get the experience with a japanese saw that replaces that of your european saw usage. do you have the time to learn in a production setting.

a quick poll would i think suggest that in most cases for most jobs, those promoting japanese saws do not use them day in day out in production work, rather like me more in the "hobby" with occassional madness mode.

however for certain things like thin kerfed joints ie dovetails they are definately the bees knees. :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2007)

Hi Srit

i used Jap saws for several years as i found them a little easier to use then european saws and also the fact hat theyare different appealed to me.

However, now that I have some decent european saws and a little more skill, i find the japaneses saws hardly ever get used........


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## dchenard (17 Jul 2007)

OK... Few things here...

BB, you keep mentioning that commonly available Japanese saws aren't suitable for "hardwoods in this country". As far as I know UK timber isn't much different than what we have on my side of the pond, so what is the issue?

Looking at LV's saw offerings (of which many if not all, are sold in the UK by various retailers), I haven't seen a mention that a given saw is to be used only in softwoods, actually it is mentioned for many of these saws that they work with both softwoods and hardwoods. And my experience (I've had four of their Japanese saws) supports that. You might want to put this down to "retailer's hype", but I know LV enough to tell you that it's not the case. So I'm asking again, why are these saws unsuitable for hardwoods? The very high end Japanese saws, those that are hand-made and must be sent back for re-sharpening, are filed specifically for the type of wood used, but the mainstream saws are not.

Philipp, you raise one good point, Japanese saws are ready to use right out of the box. Western saw manufacturers are not, except for the high-end ones. Actually, not to put down the high-end makers, the quality of the sharpening is often what distinguishes their saws from more mundane ones (neglecting beauty and material quality for the moment). More on that later. As far as "unflat" cuts go, Rob Cosman told me something similar when I mentioned to him that I preferred my rip dozuki by far compared to the LN DT saw he had sold me. In practice this hasn't been an issue, even in thick stock (I made tests). One thing to remember about Japanese saws, one can't correct a cut once started, the blade is too thin.

Sparky, you said that you tried a dozuki for dovetails and were disappointed. Did you use a rip dozuki? It makes a world of difference... FWW did a review of dozukis a year or two ago, and the crosscut dozuki saws took up to five times more strokes to do the same endgrain cut as the rip dozukis. If you didn't use the proper saw no wonder you were disappointed.

A few months ago, one of our local association members purchased a DT saw made by Ed Paik, an up-and-coming Canadian saw maker, and wanted our (the other association members') opinion. It did well, somewhat better than the LN another member brought for comparison. Another member brought a Pax, and was quickly convinced to return it because it performed so poorly (I think sharpening was an issue here). But the best cutting saw was a cheap gent's saw sharpened by Tom Law (of sharpening video fame). I didn't want to kill the party so I didn't bring my rip dozuki. Maybe I should have, because it would have blown all these western saws in a New York minute...


In the end, coming back to Scrit's intended plans, if we look at dovetail and carcass saws, here's the lowdown:

- Western saws are sturdy, and can be used by a ham-fisted gorilla without too many dire consequences. They can be resharpened by the user (if proficient, and willing to spend the time), and their blade thickness allows them to correct a cut without too much deflection.

- Japanese saws are the opposite. They are fragile, and demand more proficiency from the user (on top of getting used to the pull stroke, I ruined my first dozuki by not handling it properly, good thing it was an inexpensive one). One important point is to _let the saw do the work_, i.e. not force it into the cut. I think that's what leads to unflat cuts. They also can't be sharpened (except the very high end ones), which is not necessarily a problem. Western saws blades have been hardened traditionally to Rc 38-42 (LN claims 50-51 on their DT saw); Japanese saws are much harder, my rip dozuki is Rc 61, and my Z Saw is quoted at Rc 70 (which honestly I find hard to believe). The bottom line is that Japanese blades last much longer between sharpenings than western saws, at that point replacing the blade isn't more expensive than having a western saw done a few times, unless you don't value your time.

The reward for using Japanese saws is speed, precision, and smoothness. But they are used differently from western saws, in my view the learning curve is more than worth it.

DC


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

DC - as mentioned, my opinion is based on the two people that i've spoken to and read from mentioned in my previous post, so i'm quite happy to take a second opinion as you sound well informed on the subject. The one's i've used have mostly been from the Ice Bear range from Axminster - they're great for small jobs, and i've used them for dovetails but they weren't anywhere near as good as the sunchild one.

DC - since you seem to be somewhat of an expert on this subject, atleast more expert than I, could you recommend a couple of saws (and makers) and if you know: a place to buy them in the UK? I personally, would like a good Ryoba, and something to give me a good crosscut in 1" to 1.5" hardwood. I think part of the problem with the high-end saws is that there is simply a massive choice, and it's hard to distinguish what is good and what is not. Which leads back to the problem that most dozuki's in this country - and I would guess are at the budget end of the scale are only suitable for softwoods.

And finally, do you know of a good website, that perhaps reviews and compares the various makers of this saws?


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## Alf (17 Jul 2007)

Ooo, "ham-fisted gorillas" eh? Ooo, that's good. Anyone going to play the "wrapped up in a yak hide on top of a mountain listening to the sound of one hand sawing" card in retaliation? I've brought popcorn...







Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2007)

Just a few idle thoughts as I'm not particularly interested in japanese saws 'though I'd have a go if I had one:
Isn't the quality of the sharpening the most important thing whatever variety of saw you use? Makes comparisons a bit meaningless?
What would happen if you sharpened a normal saw with a japanese pattern of tooth?
Is there any particular advantage in a pull instead of push saw? Seems unlikely to me - how do you control the cut?

cheers
Jacob


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## engineer one (17 Jul 2007)

interesting comments jacob, but why do you think a push saw is better able to cut a straight line than pulling???

as i have said earlier, it is always easier to use what you are used to, and learning a new skill has to be an obvious advantage.

by its very nature, a push saw must be thicker and by definition therefore stronger. and thus will give a wider kerf and not necessarily a decent finish to the cut unless you are very proficient. in addition, most european saws are too general in their sharpening. 

interestingly rather like your idea about sharpening chisels, the most effective way to use a european saw is in a kind of dipping movement
which in one way is quite difficult to learn, and probably bad for your joints.
the pull saw being in a more straight line and at a lower angle offers the chance to cut more of the line in one go. offering with skill a better chance of getting a straight line. the down side is of course the sawdust collects on the line :? :lol: and of course the thinner blade bends, and can more easily go off line.

but as i have said before since few of us learn with well sharpened saws, it is easier to get used to a japanese saw when returning. it is only when you discover that a european saw can be sharp and accurate that you renew your interest in them. :roll: 

it is though different strokes for different folks :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## pam niedermayer (17 Jul 2007)

dchenard":1yzrnv9t said:


> ... One thing to remember about Japanese saws, one can't correct a cut once started, the blade is too thin....



DC, I think this is more due to the very narrow sets. Other than that, very good post.

Pam


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2007)

engineer one":30jv4prb said:


> interesting comments jacob, but why do you think a push saw is better able to cut a straight line than pulling???


You tell me :roll: I guess mainly because with a push saw you can see where the saw is going in and adjust it to the line.


> as i have said earlier, it is always easier to use what you are used to, and learning a new skill has to be an obvious advantage.
> by its very nature, a push saw must be thicker and by definition therefore stronger. and thus will give a wider kerf and not necessarily a decent finish to the cut unless you are very proficient. in addition, most european saws are too general in their sharpening.


Right - so it's the sharpening, not the design of the saw, that's what I wondered


> interestingly rather like your idea about sharpening chisels, the most effective way to use a european saw is in a kind of dipping movement
> which in one way is quite difficult to learn, and probably bad for your joints.


First I've heard of this joint prob! It's probably a question of getting in the right position - saw horses, bench heights etc


> the pull saw being in a more straight line and at a lower angle offers the chance to cut more of the line in one go. offering with skill a better chance of getting a straight line. the down side is of course the sawdust collects on the line :? :lol: and of course the thinner blade bends, and can more easily go off line.


Whole saw in the kerf absolutely not a prob with normal back saw - recently covered in the threads on housings and dovetails. Why would jap saw be easier?


> but as i have said before since few of us learn with well sharpened saws, it is easier to get used to a japanese saw when returning. it is only when you discover that a european saw can be sharp and accurate that you renew your interest in them. :roll:
> 
> it is though different strokes for different folks :lol:
> 
> paul :wink:


Sounds like it's basically down to the sharpening. Do I understand that jap saws can't be re-sharpened? We have our own excellent disposable equivalents here in the form of cheap hardpoint saws.

cheers
Jacob


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## dchenard (17 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":375ve06o said:


> DC - as mentioned, my opinion is based on the two people that i've spoken to and read from mentioned in my previous post, so i'm quite happy to take a second opinion as you sound well informed on the subject. The one's i've used have mostly been from the Ice Bear range from Axminster - they're great for small jobs, and i've used them for dovetails but they weren't anywhere near as good as the sunchild one.
> 
> DC - since you seem to be somewhat of an expert on this subject, atleast more expert than I, could you recommend a couple of saws (and makers) and if you know: a place to buy them in the UK? I personally, would like a good Ryoba, and something to give me a good crosscut in 1" to 1.5" hardwood. I think part of the problem with the high-end saws is that there is simply a massive choice, and it's hard to distinguish what is good and what is not. Which leads back to the problem that most dozuki's in this country - and I would guess are at the budget end of the scale are only suitable for softwoods.
> 
> And finally, do you know of a good website, that perhaps reviews and compares the various makers of this saws?



Expert, ho hum... :roll: You've already read most of what I know...

For a crosscut saw, Axminster carries the Z-saw I was talking about. Check for item 110 050. That saw was voted the best crosscut saw in the FWW review. And Axminster sells it at a good price, I had to pay more than that over here. 240 mm, 26 TPI, that's the one with the red sticker (don't buy the blue sticker one in the same size, item 110 039, not nearly as nice, thick kerf, and doesn't cut any faster despite the lower TPI count).

As far as ryoba saws go, I've always thought they were a goofy idea, if you'll pardon the disrespect. True, they don't have a spine to get in the way, but the teeth on the other side do, so depth of cut is limited anyway. Convenient for site jobs, I guess...

Instead of a Ryoba I would go with a kataba (teeth on one side only, also spelled kataha), one rip and one crosscut. Again, Axminster carries those in the Z-Saw line, items 110039 (crosscut) and 110041 (rip). Haven't tried them myself, but I've tried three different Z-Saws so far and they all worked well, or better. Keep in mind that the tooth count on Japanese saws is usually dependent upon length of the blade, on 10" or so saws like these two the rip one should have something like 10 TPI, and the crosscut could be something like 17 to 20. You'd have to check with Axminster, as they don't quote the "dentition". Gyokucho (the makers of the sunchild) also make decent saws at reasonable prices, not sure where you can get them, though.

If you still want a ryoba, good ones start at about $100 apparently. In increasing price (and quality?) order, Nakaya, Chuyemon, Mitsukawa are reputed to be very good. Mitsukawa also makes machine-made saws for less than $100. Then there's Kaneharu, Yataiki...

You are right about the massive choice available, especially in the low price category, with all kinds of makers, to which we add "private label" brands, it's enough to get lost quickly (haven't found your "Ice Bear" saws on Axminster's site, BTW). Unfortunately many of those saws are rubbish, and people try them, find them unsatisfactory, and then dismiss all Japanese saws based on that experience.

The best resource I've found on Japanese tools is the forum at www.japanesetools.com. There you have some of the most experienced Japanese tool users in the western world, and they are extremely helpful. I know I learned a whole lot there. Discussions are often centered around "top rung of the ladder" tools, but they will discuss anything.

In the end, though, I'm not sure that I will dwelve much into large Japanese saws. Maybe it's my lack of experience, but between ripping a board with a western saw and a ryoba/kataba, I would choose the bandsaw :wink: Seriously though, having 26" of teeth on a western saw vs. 10-12" on a Japanese one, I would go with the long stroke saw... I'll have to buy a kataba to find out  

HTH,

DC


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## dchenard (17 Jul 2007)

Alf":1co12luo said:


> Ooo, "ham-fisted gorillas" eh? Ooo, that's good. Anyone going to play the "wrapped up in a yak hide on top of a mountain listening to the sound of one hand sawing" card in retaliation? I've brought popcorn...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Alf, I wasn't targeting anyone by that comment, before someone gets out the tar and feathers :shock: 

DC ccasion5:


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## engineer one (17 Jul 2007)

jacob, couple more thoughts.

certainly when i got my first pull saw, it was a shark, and they were modern designed to take advantage of the idea by using more modern and productionised techniques. but specifically the promotion involved using the saw at a very low angle to the wood, between 10 and 15 degrees was suggested. my understanding of the way in which euro saws are designed, plus the larger teeth, means that it is much more difficult to work initially at such a low angle with those.

and indeed it does seem that in the majority of instances those japanese or pull saws available in this country are not meant to be resharpened. 
the tooth shape makes a difference, whilst the use of up to three profiles makes it difficult too. maybe that's why they are sold with the ability to replace the blades. :? 

anyway the important thing is that if you have the time to practice then they have certain advantages, but if you are used to a euro saw it is a more difficult transition. again i would say that most of us who tried them,
even we then used euro's later had been put off by blunt saws, and the need to sharpen properly.

having said that, i seem to remember that the late lamented jim kingshott used to say that all japanese tools needed fettling before using. things like the shark were a design to overcome that problem.

paul :wink:


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## javali (18 Jul 2007)

Eight months ago my daughter gave me a Gyokucho ryoba. An impressive tool. The cuts are as smooth as a baby's bum, and just as straight. After two months of trying to get straight cuts out of the thing, it now hangs in my tools-nice-to-look-at corner of the shed, a.k.a. the not-so-useful-tools corner. 

Japanese saws may be good for some people. I like my Disstons and Sorbys. Warranted Superiors are not bad either.


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## Anonymous (18 Jul 2007)

javali":27sx4kf6 said:


> Eight months ago my daughter gave me a Gyokucho ryoba. An impressive tool. The cuts are as smooth as a baby's bum, and just as straight. After two months of trying to get straight cuts out of the thing, it now hangs in my tools-nice-to-look-at corner of the shed, a.k.a. the not-so-useful-tools corner.
> 
> Japanese saws may be good for some people. I like my Disstons and Sorbys. Warranted Superiors are not bad either.


Right :lol: 
Mine are a set of Sanderson & Kayser "The British Saw" plus various Spear & Jackson and old Tyzack and a very ordinary Disston. Non of them special but I like them all, including a plastic handled cheapo which I've had for years which sharpens up really well. I regard it as disposable and use it where there may be nails but so far have not had to chuck it.
So if I wanted to find out for myself what is the point of a Japanese saw which single one (not too pricey :roll: ) would the team suggest I should buy?

cheers
Jacob


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## engineer one (18 Jul 2007)

wait for the next offer at lidl/aldi and try one of those,
generally less than ten quid and a useful starting point

paul :wink:


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## dchenard (18 Jul 2007)

Jacob, what kind of work do you intend to use your "test Japanese saw" for? That would help in determining the right saw for you :wink: 

DC


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## ByronBlack (18 Jul 2007)

Jacob - Axminster do a range of budget saws for you to try out.


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## Anonymous (18 Jul 2007)

dchenard":2e2ade0b said:


> Jacob, what kind of work do you intend to use your "test Japanese saw" for? That would help in determining the right saw for you :wink:
> 
> DC


At the moment window frames from 2 1/2" redwood, 1/2" m&tenons, but have several hardwood restoration jobs on the side. I'd want 12" tenon saw equivalent I suppose, or "general purpose".
Needless to say I do the bulk with machines but a fair bit of hand work nevertheless.

cheers
Jacob


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## Paul Kierstead (18 Jul 2007)

dchenard":p2yxbtnf said:


> A few months ago, one of our local association members purchased a DT saw made by Ed Paik, an up-and-coming Canadian saw maker, and wanted our (the other association members') opinion. It did well, somewhat better than the LN another member brought for comparison. Another member brought a Pax, and was quickly convinced to return it because it performed so poorly (I think sharpening was an issue here). But the best cutting saw was a cheap gent's saw sharpened by Tom Law (of sharpening video fame). I didn't want to kill the party so I didn't bring my rip dozuki. Maybe I should have, because it would have blown all these western saws in a New York minute...



Well I was there; you state your conclusions as if they were fact or consensus, but they are no such thing. The Paik saw was good, but not "somewhat better" then the LN in my opinion; about equal. Also in my opinion, the cheap gents saw was *worse* then both the LN and Paik (it was a great sharpening job, but that alone does not make a great saw). I'll give you the Pax on though  I also own the LV Rip Dozuki (actually, I have a few Dozuki's); I know you are a fan, but "blown away"? Get real, you are engaging in way too much hype here. All three (i.e. not the Pax) are fine saws that will get the job done quite competently with a little practice.


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## dchenard (18 Jul 2007)

Paul Kierstead":18iqxar1 said:


> dchenard":18iqxar1 said:
> 
> 
> > A few months ago, one of our local association members purchased a DT saw made by Ed Paik, an up-and-coming Canadian saw maker, and wanted our (the other association members') opinion. It did well, somewhat better than the LN another member brought for comparison. Another member brought a Pax, and was quickly convinced to return it because it performed so poorly (I think sharpening was an issue here). But the best cutting saw was a cheap gent's saw sharpened by Tom Law (of sharpening video fame). I didn't want to kill the party so I didn't bring my rip dozuki. Maybe I should have, because it would have blown all these western saws in a New York minute...
> ...



True, it should have been mentioned that this was my opinion of the saws, but many of the people who tried the saws and with whom I chatted afterwards shared my opinions. Not all of them, but many. Doesn't make for a consensus, I'll give you that, there was at least one dissenting voice :mrgreen:



Paul Kierstead":18iqxar1 said:


> The Paik saw was good, but not "somewhat better" then the LN in my opinion; about equal.



Matter of opinion for sure, I stand by what I've said. But I didn't want to be accused of "hyping" the Paik saw :evil: :lol:



Paul Kierstead":18iqxar1 said:


> Also in my opinion, the cheap gents saw was *worse* then both the LN and Paik (it was a great sharpening job, but that alone does not make a great saw). I'll give you the Pax on though



I mentioned "the best cutting saw", should have said "best sharpening job" #-o Oh well, that was clear in my head at least...



Paul Kierstead":18iqxar1 said:


> I also own the LV Rip Dozuki (actually, I have a few Dozuki's); I know you are a fan, but "blown away"? Get real, you are engaging in way too much hype here. All three (i.e. not the Pax) are fine saws that will get the job done quite competently with a little practice.



Which rip dozuki are you referring to? This one (item a)?

Or this one (the one I'm talking about)? . If that's the one you have, I would suggest you try using it again, what I and LV say about it is definitely no hype, and I am real, not complex :roll: 

All saws are fine, even the Pax would be too if it spent some time in the hands of a competent sharpener (but it would still be ugly). But apart from the couple clarifications above, I stand by what I said.

DC, 44 + 0i


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## Anonymous (18 Jul 2007)

Praps ought to keep out of these or it could end up like the 7 Samurai :shock: 
Had a look at APTC but: presumably non sharpenable, do I want these? In any case the 2 little saws only do what I already do OK with a very sharpenable long life dovetail saw, so not a good alternative OTFOI ("on the face of it" incase you thought that was the name of a Japanese sawmaker).
Perhaps I'll wait until one falls off the back of a lorry.

cheers
Jacob


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## Paul Kierstead (19 Jul 2007)

dchenard":1f15yu1l said:


> Or this one (the one I'm talking about)? . If that's the one you have, I would suggest you try using it again, what I and LV say about it is definitely no hype, and I am real, not complex :roll:



That one. I bought it when it first came out, and use it regularly; probably close to every session in the shop. I like it quite a bit for certain jobs, including quite a few crosscut ones like sawing shoulders of tenons, which it does extremely well in spite of being "rip". I use about 5 saws very very regularly (I do about 80% of all sawing by hand). It is a very good saw, but "blow away" the others? I can't agree; it has its positive points and negative points.

Since I tend to vector off in odd directions, I can only conclude I have a complex part


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## jaspr (19 Jul 2007)

I have very limited experience with japanese saws - I only own one - a Gyokucho crosscut. Never used one to dovetail.

I find I like it quite a lot. It's easy to start and cuts quickly.

But I do have one comment. Someone pointed out that they are tempered to a relatively high level, thus making them stronger. I would posit that this is essential because of the thinness of the blade. Without it, they would be too brittle.

Why do I say this? Well ... Someone (who shall remain nameless) borrowed mine - and returned it with a couple of bent teeth. It was probably just a soft knock (and I know that no-one on this forum would do such a thing to a saw blade!), but because the teeth are so thin and quite long, they bent over alarmingly. I was able to puish them back into position, but I think it has still affected the kerf width.

So - yes, hardened, but still fragile. Beware.

Scit - sounds like rather than change over altogether, you should first get yourself a good one - Sunchild dozuki is the one recommended by people who's opinion I value - and try it out along side your existing saws.


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## Philipp (19 Jul 2007)

> Ideally if I'm going to make the change I'd like to replace my dovetail and carcass (back/tenon) saws first (that's 4 saws in total), followed later by the panel and rip saws. The work I envisage is mainly hardwoods, so, who has experience of these and what do you think?



Scrit, in order to speak for the JS (I know, a bit contrary to my former post) I would recommend these ones:

Dovetails: http://www.fine-tools.com/G312180.htm#zield182
Great little ripping dozuki which does a very good job but needs careful handling due to very thin blade. 22 Eur.

Fine crosscuts: http://www.fine-tools.com/G312180.htm#zield184
In my view better suited for fine cross-cuts than the much larger, but also very fine-toothed http://www.fine-tools.com/G309320.htm.

For quicker cross-cuts I like this Kataba best:

http://www.dick.biz
Search for item 712471 (my link doesn't work).
I prefer the "European" handle much over the - in my point of view - unergonomic long and straight handles of most JS.
This saw is good in price (20 Eur), other blades for different materials are being offered. Cuts very quickly and flat/true when combined with the saw guide
http://www.dick.biz
Search for item 712460 (my link doesn't work).

Best regards

Philipp


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## Sgian Dubh (19 Jul 2007)

Scrit, in answer to your original post, away back in the mists of time now, and having reviewed comments in this thread, here's my take.

I've tried a few of the Japanese saws over the years, and not a darned one has really worked for me. Don't get me wrong, Japanese saws are fine tools and in the hands of an accomplished user I know they work beautifully.

The first time I came across them back in the 1970's I think it was, I was very impressed by how fast they cut. So I purchased one and tried it. I hated the floppy blade that couldn't be re-directed if it went off line. I disliked my line getting hidden by sawdust. I couldn't stand the way the handle kept whacking my elbow on every pull stroke. I was irritated that I couldn't get a coping saw blade into the kerf to nip off the waste of dovetails.

It didn't take long before I abandoned the saw to nipping off dowels and other bits and bobs. I lost it eventually and didn't miss it. Actually I think I chucked it away- I don't recall.

Then, fifteen or so years later in the nineties I gave them another go. I have no idea why really. It just seemed I ought to check out the hoopla that all the Americans around me were going on about. I didn't want to be closed to new ideas. Same results, only this time I also noticed the blasted teeth broke off easy-peasy. $20 of wasted money. Tossed in the dumpster.

I still come across Japanese saw users, ie, my students when they bring them in and can't cut to a line. I have to show them how it's done. So I grab their saws and away to go. For me, they're still awkward and uncomfortable to use, and the thing I hate most is that handle whacking my elbow on every pull stroke. It knocks the tool off-line all the time.

I suppose I should change my grip. I can't get out of the habit of gripping a saw right up by the blade, western style. I've tried holding those Japanese things further away from the blade, and it just doesn't work that way either.

So, after several efforts at using Japanese saws, unsuccessfully each time, I'm sticking with my western saws. They work, they're fast and they're accurate. Most importantly, they suit me, and that's all I need to know. Slainte.


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## Mittlefehldt (19 Jul 2007)

Okay stepping up to the microphone the infamous ham fisted gorilla, albiet a light weight gorilla.

I was not going to reply to this thread unti Sgian Dubh did and confirmed what I thought. I have tried them never a high end one to be sure, but I did try them, and found them lacking. The saw I used the longest was the LV dovetail saw which worked okay in white pine but as soon as I tried it on red oak, white ash or walnut it started losing teeth, they seemed inordinatly brittle. 

After replacing three blades in a year I replaced it with a Pax, yes a Pax, rip cut dovetail saw and have been content ever since.

MY objection like Alf, is that I cannot sharpen a Japanese saw myself, and I object to the throw away blades on principal, reduce, reuse, recycle.

James


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## ByronBlack (19 Jul 2007)

James, the theory is; because the blades are so hard, they'll very rarely need sharpening, hence why most blades aren't made to be easily sharpened. Instead, after a long period of use you'll send the blade away to be done properly - this apparently only needs to be done on the rare occasion.

I also had some broken teeth on my first dozuki - this was because my model wich was a cheap basic one was for softwood only, hence when used on harder wood, the teeth break.

Since the thread, i've done a bit more research and have found that the higher-end saws are actually suitable for hardwoods and less likely to break.

I guess like most tools, the budget range is what most have for their first experience of and are ultimately disapointed after not getting the results that others say they get from their saw which almost always is one of the higher-end better made saws. 

It's exactly the same as western saws. I can go and buy a cheap gentlemans saw and get frustrated with it, or I can buy a lie Nielsen saw and have out of the box performance.

To judge any tool on the budget range offering isn't a true representation of the tool as a whole. It would be like judging an LN bench plane on a new cheap Stanley performance.


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## Paul Chapman (19 Jul 2007)

I've never really understood the Japanese way of woodworking :? :? Whether it's sawing, planing, chiseling, sharpening, work holding, or even whether to stand up or sit on the floor, they seem to go out of their way to find the most cack-handed way of doing everything. Some people seem to love it and produce good results, but it's not for me.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2007)

Some snaps here I took in Japan during brief visit last year. I saw a lot of architectural woodwork but no tools or workshops - will do that next time.
Anyway there's nothing here below which could not be done with budget tools :lol: 














cheers
Jacob
PS same trip went to Tasmania where there is a whole lot of "fine woodwork" of the type so admired on this group i.e. mostly immaculate small cabinets


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## promhandicam (19 Jul 2007)

senior":1xsx4pf7 said:


> . . .I have found that a Japanese saw is fantastic at swatting flys/wasps in mid air, once you get your eye in a quick manic flailing action and you usually down the little bug**rs. :lol:



Senior - We seem to have a lot of flies at the moment and so I'm very interested in your technique and choice of saw. Do you whack them with the side of the saw or on the edge, thus impaling them on the teeth? If the later, then presumably a Ryoba style with teeth on both sides would be an advantage. If you are getting them side on do you recommend a saw with a Dozuki (with a back) which is a bit more rigid or a Kabota (no back) which would give a bit more of a whipping action. 

Decisions decisions :wink: 

One place to look for reasonable priced Japanese saws (and chisels) at the moment is here where a 300mm 12Tpi ZED Speed Kabata Nokogiri is on offer for £12.50 plus postage. I think that ZED are a reasonable make. The seller is reputable and people here have been very happy with the Japanese tools he sells.

Steve
(no connection with Peter (thegoodtoolguy) Veal other than being a satisfied customer)


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## dchenard (19 Jul 2007)

Paul Kierstead":3iwl354u said:


> That one. I bought it when it first came out, and use it regularly; probably close to every session in the shop. I like it quite a bit for certain jobs, including quite a few crosscut ones like sawing shoulders of tenons, which it does extremely well in spite of being "rip". I use about 5 saws very very regularly (I do about 80% of all sawing by hand). It is a very good saw, but "blow away" the others? I can't agree; it has its positive points and negative points.



OK, entertain me... What are its negative points?

DC


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## dchenard (19 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":a4svwesa said:


> dchenard":a4svwesa said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, what kind of work do you intend to use your "test Japanese saw" for? That would help in determining the right saw for you :wink:
> ...



For a general purpose saw, the Z Saw dozuki that I referred to earlier in this thread would be a good all around saw. It's filed crosscut, but will rip in a pinch, albeit more slowly than a rip saw. And it's inexpensive. I have it and it works very well.

However, the spine might get in your way if sawing 2 1/2" thick stock, in which case a ryoba or kataba would be preferable. Axminster has a selection at affordable prices.

DC


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## dchenard (19 Jul 2007)

Mittlefehldt":1a6h1iuz said:


> Okay stepping up to the microphone the infamous ham fisted gorilla, albiet a light weight gorilla.
> 
> I was not going to reply to this thread unti Sgian Dubh did and confirmed what I thought. I have tried them never a high end one to be sure, but I did try them, and found them lacking. The saw I used the longest was the LV dovetail saw which worked okay in white pine but as soon as I tried it on red oak, white ash or walnut it started losing teeth, they seemed inordinatly brittle.
> 
> ...



Was it this one?

That's the first one I bought, and it is indeed fragile. I think the steel is hardened beyond its capabilities, making the teeth brittle. For the record I have not broken teeth on the other dozuki I own or owned. I would suggest you try again with that Z Saw I mentioned, Langevin & Forest sells it, and other outlets I'm sure.

DC


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## ike (19 Jul 2007)

Byron wrote,



> James, the theory is; because the blades are so hard, they'll very rarely need sharpening, hence why most blades aren't made to be easily sharpened. Instead, after a long period of use you'll send the blade away to be done properly - this apparently only needs to be done on the rare occasion.



I'd love to get my saws sharpened. How does one sharpen the really hard teeth? A saw file wouldn't work would it?. Can you give me your contact where I can get this done. Would be great to get more life out of the saws.

cheers,

Ike


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## ByronBlack (19 Jul 2007)

Hi Ike,

I really wouldn't know where you send the saw blades, I didn't get that far in my research, mearly that was the theory behind it. If anyone does know, could you please tell us, as i'm sure it would be very handy!


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## Paul Kierstead (19 Jul 2007)

dchenard":shyfsw12 said:


> OK, entertain me... What are its negative points?



I'm not in the business of entertainment. I'd suggest that if you have found no negative points, you have used it very very narrowly, purpose wise. I'll hit just the high points:

- The set is too fine for some purposes. Very fine set means very little steering ability (Japanese or Western.) This is not a bit problem in shallow cuts, but is a big problem in deeper ones, like actual ripping.

- In general, the pull action is problematic in seeing a line. Partly this is a problem with our methods I expect, but combining western fixtures and methods with Japanese tools works sometimes, is a pain others. If you are sawing down a dovetail in thin stock, this doesn't matter at all. For actual rip, or on wider stock, not so good.

- Contrary to its stated purpose, it is terrible for all but the smallest tenon cheeks. It can't be steered, it is too fine, it is much to shallow, and in general performs poorly making cuts where the blade is in more then 1/2" of material, IMO. For thin dovetails, I find it fabulous. For thicker ones, I don't care for it so much.

- The ergonomics are sub-optimal for western sawing set-ups. For example, on a sawbench, the material tends to vibrate more since the forces are upwards, flexing the material. I will saw a reversed saw-hook works better then expected.

Those are just a few. I still use it plenty; it has its place. Most good saws can find purposes well suited to them.


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## ByronBlack (19 Jul 2007)

Just a small point. I find stock in a vice moves less against the tension of the saw when pulling than it does when being pushed and I feel I have more control of the cut on the pull stroke than the push stroke.


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":1d3dygtj said:


> Just a small point. I find stock in a vice moves less against the tension of the saw when pulling than it does when being pushed and I feel I have more control of the cut on the pull stroke than the push stroke.


No prob with ordinary bench hooks for crosscutting or saw horses for ripping.
How would you rip boards or crosscut bigger timbers as one would with western saw and saw horses i.e. fast, easy but energetic? 
Wouldn't the workpiece be lifting off with a pull saw? 
Can you give it max power on the pull stroke? 
Somehow visualise cutting ones knee on a regular basis. :roll: 
Only just recovering from falling off me bike!

cheers
Jacob


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## engineer one (19 Jul 2007)

you have to see a japanese master at work to understand what is needed, but.

the japanese have traditionally had small workshops and because amongst other things of earthquakes and typhoons and sunamis' tended not to have too many possessions that could be thrown about and through their paper screens. thus they have different style of bench. in addition at home they tend to sit more than we,so are more used to sitting to work.

like all things it is practice :twisted: 

i say it comes back to one thing, if you have learnt on sharp decent euro saw, then in general you will find japanese/pull saws more difficult to use.
if however you are starting out, or have only used blunt euor saws, then it is more easy to use the japanese saws. you get used to the rythym, and also holding it away from the blade. however they are more difficult to saw in a straight line if you are not used to it, but their back saws have spines, so make it a little easier.

since i can't saw properly yet, because of lack of practice, then i find now i am using both types. depending on what i am doing. mind you i have only two euro saws an ln dovetail, and an old toga that colin c sharpened for me, before that, i had major problems using euro saws. 

so i must look for a longer euro rip, and see how i can work with it.
but for down and dirty work out of the shop, shark saws get the bits made smaller quickly :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## dchenard (19 Jul 2007)

Paul Kierstead":3gangjz6 said:


> dchenard":3gangjz6 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, entertain me... What are its negative points?
> ...



Well... Taking your points in order:

- The narrow set is _a good thing_. True, it makes the saw less "steerable", and that forces the user to nail the cut. A saw with lots of set is like a car with loose steering, it will swerve all over the road. The downside of being able to steer a saw is that you need to cut very precisely otherwise the saw will steer itself off course and/or make a ragged cut. 

- pull action is problematic in seeing a line: I'm not sure what you are talking about here, sawdust obscuring the line or the saw itself blocking the view, I sometimes blow the dust off the line, but western saws are not immune to this problem either. But in any case this is a general issue and not something specific to the particular saw that is the object of this discussion. 

- terrible for all but the smallest tenon cheeks: I won't argue here until I cut more tenons with mine, but what I said above regarding set applies here too.

- ergonomics are sub-optimal for western sawing set-ups: again, this is a general issue, not specific to the specific model. One can't assume that using pull-stroke saws on push-stroke jigs and fixtures will work seamlessly. I made myself a "reverse" bench hook that works pretty well.

I'll do more tests and report back.

DC


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## Paul Kierstead (19 Jul 2007)

dchenard":3a9yar9p said:


> - The narrow set is _a good thing_. True, it makes the saw less "steerable", and that forces the user to nail the cut. A saw with lots of set is like a car with loose steering, it will swerve all over the road. The downside of being able to steer a saw is that you need to cut very precisely otherwise the saw will steer itself off course and/or make a ragged cut.



No, it is a good thing _sometimes_. Other times it is a massive PITA. More set doesn't cause the saw to wander exactly; more like the user has to steer more accurately throughout the cut. So with little set you have to start out right, but are ok once you get going. With more set you have more leeway starting, but have to be more careful as you go. In practice with something like dovetails, your first cut (lets say tails) a small set is great since it is very important to get a straight cut (especially if you don't pare, and you don't need to using such a fine saw) and not really all that important if it is at 7 degrees or 7.5 degrees. When you cut the second piece (lets say pins), you really need to follow the line in order to match the first; then you'll tend to find some steer-ability good, since it is really hard to nail the direction right at the outset. So a good dovetail saw will try to balance these two things, having less set then your typical saw but still enough to give some steering. This saw does not strike a good balance in my opinion.

Yes, quite a few of my comments are not specific to that saw, but it doesn't matter; it is an issue with the saw anyway. I could also provide a good list of failings of the LN dovetail saw (very notably, I find it an inch or two too short, one of the strengths of the Dozuki under discussion) as well. Again, I like the Dozuki, I just object to it's characterization of "blowing away" the others. And as I said, I use mine very regularly (though not often for dovetails, unless in very thin stock, then I love it much more then the LN)


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## Scrit (19 Jul 2007)

Paul Kierstead":1rvbktid said:


> I'm finding this a fascinating discussion, gents. Thank you for such a lively debate. I feel I've learned a bit here. If I might make a few (probably inappropriate points):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is one of the points which does concern me. I've seen Japanese-American woodworkers in San Francisco more or less sitting on the floor, or a very low bench, to do work and holding the material with a combination of things - including feet. I'm not sure I'm ready for that! Richard's comments about whacking his elbow seem to me to be indicative of a mismatch between the western bench and the Japanese style of saw/usage and I think I may need to experiment a bit to see if I can co-exist with this potential "cultural difference"

Scrit


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## engineer one (19 Jul 2007)

glad you find this can of worms interesting scrit :lol: :twisted: 

to me it is true that you get more sawdust on the line with a japanese saw rather than a euro one. obvious really the saw is pulling the sawdust back in the action. in principle the push saw sends it away.

however recently in one of the popular woodworking acticles by chris swartz, he was talking about making a circular kind of motion with a push saw would make sawing easier, and also move sawdust more easily.

what is perhaps more interesting is why so many of the cheaper japanese saws have westernised handles. and i think this kind of defeats some of the design capabilities. don't think that you can properly combine both technologies. :roll: 

paul :wink:


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## Scrit (19 Jul 2007)

engineer one":9o12hhil said:


> ...he was talking about making a circular kind of motion with a push saw would make sawing easier, and also move sawdust more easily......


Oddly enough I was quickly cutting-up some stickers this afternoon and realised that I was using the kind of motion you were ytalking about - only because the labourer I had working for me commented on it. I'd never thought it before.

And I don't think it's a can of worms, either, Paul. I find the differences of opinion on the subject very enlightening. As a result I find that my thoughts on the subject have become much more sharply defined.

Scrit


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## ByronBlack (19 Jul 2007)

It has been a great thread. And one that has made me research more into japanese tools and the theory behind their design, so much so i'm thinking of trying a better quality Dozuki for cutting the tenons on my workbench project.

Its also refreshing to see Scrit asking some questions for a change, instead of being the all-knowing and all-seeing omnipresent dictionary of everything that we have all grown to enjoy  (And I mean all that in a good way - not sure how it sounds typed out..)


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## Mittlefehldt (19 Jul 2007)

dchenard":32k9p5y9 said:


> [quote
> Was it this one?
> 
> That's the first one I bought, and it is indeed fragile. I think the steel is hardened beyond its capabilities, making the teeth brittle. For the record I have not broken teeth on the other dozuki I own or owned. I would suggest you try again with that Z Saw I mentioned, Langevin & Forest sells it, and other outlets I'm sure.
> ...



No it was not, I do have that one though used it to frame a basement room worked okay in construction grade spruce, ie soft, but wobbled all over the place and I couldn't cut a straight line with that thing to save my life.

The one I am referring to was called Japanese Dovetail saw, and it now has a black handle rather than the light coloured wood one mine did. As I said earlier it was fine in white pine dovetails but as soon as it got to anything with some weight it started losing teeth, and I would be the first to admit that my technique or lack thereof may have been responsible.

However I have as a result of reading Adam Cherubini and others discovered that western saws do the job handily, if you sharpen them, which I do, again maybe not flawlessly but I notice an improvement before and after. So I will stick with my little Pax and my R. H. Smith or Shurley & Dietrich made in Canada saws.

I should add that the first saws I bought for woodworking were the LV Japanese saws and I can say I prefer the western ones I use. You cannot beat the price when you see them regularily for less than $20 Canadian, and they do the job handily.


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## dchenard (20 Jul 2007)

Paul Kierstead":26q8hmsx said:


> Again, I like the Dozuki, I just object to it's characterization of "blowing away" the others. And as I said, I use mine very regularly (though not often for dovetails, unless in very thin stock, then I love it much more then the LN)



OK, let's backtrack for a minute here. The "characterization" that irks you stems from my observations from that association meeting, where the LN and Paik (and the other saws) were used to do dovetail-type cuts. 

So I did a "collaborative test" today. I asked a friend, who owns both the LN and the Paik saws to do a test for me. Ten cuts straight through in endgrain hard maple, 3/4" thick stock, and cuts 3/4" deep. I asked him to give me the average number of strokes (defined as a back and forth motion) required to do the cut.

He came back with these results: LN, 8, Paik, 7. He did the same test in cherry, with the same results.

Backgrounder: the latest FWW Tools and Shops issue has a review of Japanese dozuki saws, where the author (Charles Durfee) measured the number of strokes needed to do the same kind of cut as mentioned above. His results were quite a bit higher than what my friend got, which got me baffled. Fortunately, my friend also has the small rip dozuki from LV, and did the same test. The result was between 8 and 9 strokes. Not bad for a small inexpensive saw.

I own the same saw, and set up to repeat my friend's results in a piece of hard maple. At first I couldn't get close to his results. Two possibilities here, either he did put downwards pressure on the saw (maybe without noticing), or his maple sample is softer than mine. In any case, I started adding a bit of pressure on the saw, and reached the same results as he did.

Now "properly calibrated", I tested the other two saws in my possession. The Z Saw mentioned abundantly in this thread (and the Editor's choice in the FWW article) took an average of 18 strokes to do the test cut. The LV Rip Dozuki? *5!* :shock:

Coming back to my friend, based on the results he reached, the Paik takes 40% more strokes than the LV saw, and the LN 60%. In my book I call that "blow away", if you don't agree, well, don't agree :roll:

I would not call this a "scientific experiment" in any way, but I did it honestly. To be fair, my friend mentioned that he used full strokes, the full length of the saw, and in order to keep comparability I did the same. In practice, I don't put weight on the saw when I cut, and I use less than full strokes in order not to have the saw "jump out" of the kerf. That translates into doubling the number of strokes for all three saws when used "my way".

I rest my case.

DC

Regarding tenons, I did cut a test tenon on a 4", 4/4 maple board, 1 1/4" deep, with the LV saw. Didn't go very well, in all fairness I don't think this saw was designed to cut cheeks this wide, although I won't rule out operator error in this case, I don't cut lots of tenons by hand.


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## Anonymous (20 Jul 2007)

Interesting thread. 
Perhaps there is clue to the issue in that there is huge variety of JSs and also of _opinions about_ JSs. 
To me this means that it's an open issue and that so many options means that non of them are convincing. 
Whereas with a western saw there is very strong agreement about what's best; the trio of tenon, panel and rip/cross-cut being capable of almost everything, and all the others being useful but increasingly marginal or specialised, depending on what you are actually doing.
Phew glad I've made my mind up :lol: 
cheers
Jacob


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## ByronBlack (20 Jul 2007)

DC, is the metric of number of strokes to cut a joint really the right metric to use to measure the quality of the cut? IMO I don't think it does, it mearly suggests which saw cuts the most aggresively. It doesn't take into consideration the finish of the cut, the straightness of the cut, and ease of tracking a straight line.

The best way to measure the quality of a saw is with a combination of all the factors mentioned above. For example, it wouldn't bother me one bit if I have to use 5 strokes for a cut or 10 strokes, aslong as the cut was straight and true and with a nice finish.


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## dchenard (20 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":g1pbj7j3 said:


> DC, is the metric of number of strokes to cut a joint really the right metric to use to measure the quality of the cut? IMO I don't think it does, it mearly suggests which saw cuts the most aggresively. It doesn't take into consideration the finish of the cut, the straightness of the cut, and ease of tracking a straight line.
> 
> The best way to measure the quality of a saw is with a combination of all the factors mentioned above. For example, it wouldn't bother me one bit if I have to use 5 strokes for a cut or 10 strokes, aslong as the cut was straight and true and with a nice finish.



Agree wholeheartedly. Since my last post (and this thread!) was getting long, I did not dwelve on these points, so I'll do it now.

If you remember, I mentioned a couple eons ago, when this thread started, that I used to have a LN DT saw. I sold it because I liked my dozuki much better. Here's a few reasons:

- speed, as mentioned before
- setting in: the dozuki sets itself in the wood right away, whereas with the LN you have to take weight off the saw otherwise it refuses to start the cut.
- quality/finish of cut: I seem to remember that the dozuki left a somewhat cleaner cut, but let's call it a tie, as it wasn't a factor with either saw.
- ease of tracking/straightness of cut: neither saw has a lot of set, so one has to nail the cut from the start. Whenever I had cuts go off track was usually my fault, and trying to correct them can't be done easily by steering the saw (in either case). The small amount of set I actually do prefer, as it forces me to be careful when starting a cut, eventually making me better (hopefully!) at sawing.

So, on my scale (subjective, before someone takes me to task :lol: ), in the aspects described here, the LN saw can't beat the dozuki. 

One last point about the LN: the saw always gets quite warm after making a cut. Not to the point where the steel would lose its temper, but annoying nonetheless, to me it's a sign that the saw is struggling to do its job (insufficient set?). My rip dozuki on the other hand always stays cool. Little intangible detail, I know, but it kind of matters to me.

DC


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## ByronBlack (20 Jul 2007)

DC - Thanks for the futher detail, much appreciated!


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## Harbo (31 Jul 2007)

Before this lengthy debate on saws took place, I had ordered a Crown dovetail saw which came out as "Best value" in FWW's saw test. 
It has just arrived and I am a bit disappointed with it in that it cuts very slowly with quite a wide kerf. I tried it out on some oak and it was beaten hands down by my cheapo Axminster Dozuki. 
I might try filing down the set to see if that improves things?

I see that Sunchild JS's have been mentioned - are Thanet the only suppliers - they do not seem to have a web page?

Workshop Heaven have a white steel Dozuki for hard woods but it is not the cheapest at £59

Rod


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## engineer one (31 Jul 2007)

rod as has been mentioned before the zona saws have come out wellin tests, particularly fww. i think axminster have them in stock too and not too expensive.

paul :wink:


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## ByronBlack (31 Jul 2007)

Rod,

Workshop heaven also do a dozuki for £33 which I believe to be similar to the sunchild. Linky

I have had two dozuki's from axminster, and after first being pleased with them, over time i've come to realise they aren't all that great - espeically in hardwoods.

[/url]


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## dchenard (1 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":20q7l03l said:


> Rod,
> 
> Workshop heaven also do a dozuki for £33 which I believe to be similar to the sunchild. Linky
> 
> ...



Looks like a good saw, the only question is whether it has rip or crosscut teeth, from the count (about 17 TPI) it should be a rip saw, but I would ask before buying, so that you get what you were expecting...

DC


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## Frank D. (1 Aug 2007)

I have the Sun Child and the another dozuki by Gyokucho; they don't have the same teeth (Sun Child has combination teeth which help it rip more aggressively yet cut smoothly). I'm not sure about the one in the pic; it would surprise me if the teeth were rip, but I have no idea. At first I wasn't crazy about Japanese saws in hardwood, but ease (efficiency) comes with practice. Now I have little or no trouble cutting through all kinds of domestic and tropical hardwoods. I switch back and forth between Japanese and Western saws depending on my mood (I like both).
2¢


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## dchenard (1 Aug 2007)

Hey Frank, did you buy the LV rip dozuki? You seemed to like it when you test-drove it :wink: 

DC


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## Frank D. (1 Aug 2007)

Yes Denis,
It's still on my list, but I'm doing a ton of carpentry work these days, and trying to set up a forge, so the saw will have to wait. Not to mention my speeding ticket I got on vacation... :evil:


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## David C (1 Aug 2007)

Harbo,

Many UK dovetail saws are massively overset,

Remove excess set carefully with a fine slipstone. This will improve things enormously.

Don't remove it all or the saw will stick and need a trip to a sawdoctor.

for Sunchild, (which no longer has the name on the blade but;

*Razorsaw 0.3-240 No. S-311*

*Thanet tools, phone Sean on 01233 501010*

David Charlesworth


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## Keefaz (1 Aug 2007)

I'm still very much a beginner and use virtually nothing but fairly cheap Jap saws. For the novice who has very little idea about how to sharpen and set-up a Western saw, they're perfect: razor-sharp, can be used without set-up, and leave a thin, clean cut. They do have drawbacks--teeth break, they can be occasionally wayward and impossible to correct--but the alternative seems too frightening for the novice: saw sets?! Tooth angles?! Kerf?!


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## David C (2 Aug 2007)

I have never broken a tooth off a sunchild, nor have any of my students.

However we keep them for dovetailing in relatively thin hardwood, perhaps 8mm -15mm, and other delicate cuts.

Breakage is usually caused by using softwood crosscut teeth in hardwoods. 

David C


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## Harbo (6 Aug 2007)

As David C suggested, I have removed some of the set from my Crown saw and it has made a difference - but unfortunately I forgot to take some measurements before I started  
However the blade is 0.55mm thick and the set thickness is now 0.89mm. 
Reading the article on saw setting on the Vintagesaw site, it recommends an increase in blade thickness of 20% to 30% depending on the type of wood used. This would mean a set thickness of 0.65mm to 0.72mm - so I still have a way to go? However, as the blade does not appear to be taper ground, it also states that it should require more set - any recommendations?


Rod


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## David C (6 Aug 2007)

Three thousandth's of an inch on either side is more than adequate for a dovetail saw.

Don't know about other saws, but the bigger they are the more set they will require.

0.1mm is almost exactly 4 thou"

David Charlesworth


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## Harbo (7 Aug 2007)

I have just received Vols 1 & 2 of David C's books where lots of my queries have been covered. 
I have yet to try the paper thickness set test but have been using a dial micrometer instead. 
On another matter I got quite excited about David's query about the sources of curve templates for as a Civil Engineer I have a box of Railway Curves which were used for drawing road alignments as well as railway track layouts. 
Then I realised that I have had mine for about 30 years and a search on Google did not reveal any suppliers - another aid replaced by the computer! 

Rod


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## engineer one (7 Aug 2007)

at scrit's request, i have re-read Joyce, and noticed his mentioning
drawing squares, t squares etc. can't get those in the large sizes easily any more.
:roll: 
paul :wink:


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## David C (7 Aug 2007)

Rod,

Nice old Railway curves very exciting.

I was sent an excellent set of ship's curves by a knife maker in south africa.

best wishes,
David

PS The answers (or to be more precise my answers) to many questions asked on this forum are in my books, but I'm not clear how often I can say this without becoming too boring & repetetive!

www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk


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## engineer one (7 Aug 2007)

it may well be true that the answers are in your books and dvds david, and we are all pleased about that :lol: 

however woodwork can be a lonely job and without this kind of communication who knows how nutty we might all get.

in addition some of your answers may be contentious to some, and more demanding than others of us want to be :roll: :? 

if one is relearning late in life, the questions you have to ask are often ones which may be when viewed in the cold light of day simply answered, but when it is late at night and you don't know where to go, this forum offers the friendly arm around the shoulder and a helping hand.

your own contribution is always useful and aposite, so i am certainly grateful that you take the time and trouble to check in and answer things which may be covered elsewhere.

i do the occassional beta testing on a couple of computer programmes, and inevitably what i find goes wrong is the simple things which are often modified to make the programme bigger better etc are stuffed up without thought. i think the same happens here in woodworking. :roll: 

whilst all our problems might be easily solved, rather like my shooting board one, until you air it and then get an explanation, mere words on a page may not be enough to clear your mind.

when working on a project it is often easy to get overwhelmed by the problems that you seem to miss the obvious, which is where this forum really does help.

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (7 Aug 2007)

David C":3uccp69o said:


> snip
> PS The answers (or to be more precise my answers) to many questions asked on this forum are in my books,


Rather a bold claim David :lol: are we all wasting our time?


> but I'm not clear how often I can say this without becoming too boring & repetetive!


 No comment :shock:
cheers
Jacob
PS is there an advertising policy of any sort on this forum?


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## Javier (8 Aug 2007)

David C":2u3j9bqv said:


> Rod,
> 
> PS The answers (or to be more precise my answers) to many questions asked on this forum are in my books, but I'm not clear how often I can say this without becoming too boring & repetetive!
> 
> www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk



I recently bought two of Dave's books. They're mostly articles from a British Woodworking mag.
Great tips on hand tool use. If I win the lottery I'm gonna fly across the pond and take a few of his
courses.


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## Frank D. (8 Aug 2007)

Javier":3t1m0neo said:


> Great tips on hand tool use. If I win the lottery I'm gonna fly across the pond and take a few of his courses.


Ditto. David's first two books probably had a greater influence on my woodworking than all other books I've read combined.


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## David C (8 Aug 2007)

Jacob,

I suspect you would not like them because they provide methods for solving problems and difficulties which you do not seem to have.

Yes it is a bold statement which I am quite happy to stand by and the only way you would find out is to try them.

As they say, "why not suck it and see"

best wishes as always,

David Charlesworth


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## Anonymous (8 Aug 2007)

I've read your "Furniture-Making techniques". 
Quirky and interesting yes, but comprehensive most definitely not. Very little use to a beginner I'd have to say, and covers very little ground, and in an idiosyncratic way. Hardly any basics at all but a lot of top-end or obscure tool stuff, and unusual joints.
Basically a rag bag of magazine articles. Interesting and worth having nonetheless. 
Compare and contrast Joyces similarly titled "The Technique of Furniture Making".

cheers
Jacob


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## bugbear (8 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":3aics5kp said:


> and in an *idiosyncratic* way



Is that similar to opinionated?

BugBear


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## Anonymous (8 Aug 2007)

bugbear":1ol7wta5 said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":1ol7wta5 said:
> 
> 
> > and in an *idiosyncratic* way
> ...


Fairly close I suppose :lol: 
In general I wouldn't use either word pejoratively

cheers
Jacob


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## Harbo (8 Aug 2007)

Wow - I sadly did not intend to trigger off a flurry here about David's books. 

I found them to be quite interesting especially as they cover quite a number of topics that have been raised recently on this Forum - and at £7/copy inc. postage, a bargain IMHO?" I do not think they are meant to be a Woodworker's "Bible" though? 
Sadly Ernest Joyce's "The Technique of Furniture Making" is only available used at £30 - though I have read that his Encyclopedia has the same content? 

One thing that did concern me though was a photo of David wearing sandals in his workshop - I am sure they were steel toed versions? Chisels and other tools falling on bare toes - Ouch!! 8-[ 

Rod


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## ByronBlack (8 Aug 2007)

Jacob":1cn45h4c said:


> Very little use to a beginner I'd have to say, and covers very little ground



I'm a beginner, and Davids books have helped me in many many ways. I agree that a lot of the questions on this forum (particularly the hand tools sub-forum) are indeed answered in his books. As usual, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about David and hisbooks - which is a shame because i'm sure you could learn a thing or two from his books like all of us who read them.


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## woodbloke (8 Aug 2007)

Harbo wrote:


> David wearing sandals in his workshop


Rod- flop-flops now summers here :lol: Paul Chapman lent me one of Davids books which I found good. Some of it was reprints from F&C (of which I have every copy) and some was new stuff (iIrc) that I hadn't seen before. Presentation was excellent in it, tho' as Mr Grim has said, not comprehensive. I was sufficiently impressed to want to put it, and others, on my book/tool list of things that Father Christmas might want to leave in my stocking on Christmas Eve, 'specially if I leave a finger or three of malt out and a mince pie just before the wooden hill :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (8 Aug 2007)

Harbo":269rs2mk said:


> Sadly Ernest Joyce's "The Technique of Furniture Making" is only available used at £30



Excellent book - covers virtually everything and very nicely written and illustrated. Not sure where you are looking, Rod, but keep a lookout elsewhere - I picked up a copy from Pennyfarthing Tools for £12-50 recently. Probably the best £12-50 I've ever spent  

I think David Charlesworth's books are excellent as well. He only covers the sort of stuff that he does, but sometimes one particular tip can be worth the price of the book :wink: I find his stuff on scrapers, tearout and things like that particularly useful. It's the sort of thing that's not covered in any great depth by other people, yet can be very important because it has such a big effect on the final look of the piece.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## engineer one (8 Aug 2007)

rod, think you will need to leave a larger finger than that out :lol: :twisted: 

were you nearer you could borrow my copy of joyce which i have just gone through again. :roll: 

i think that the differences are that david makes his living in the furniture and cabinet business which tends to be more involved with care being taken, and indoor working. jacob seems to spend more time on site, and many consider such work does not need the same accuracy :? 

the other real consideration is when and how you learnt. us old pippers tended to have been taught some basic techiniques by either a teacher, or during an apprenticeship. or even by dad, and we learnt most forms of diy skills as well as mechanical skills on cars available in the 60's maestros anyone??? :twisted: sadly fewer kids get to learn early enough. thus the need to ask simple questions, and not be too sure about taking advice from acknowledged experts because it seems too complicated.

i find david's advice useful and interesting to follow, whilst jacob's pithy comments often show a lack of understanding for the aim to improve the craftsmanship.

my 2 p :roll: 
paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (8 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":1ccx79uv said:


> snip
> As usual, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about David and hisbooks - which is a shame because i'm sure you could learn a thing or two from his books like all of us who read them.


Hey Byron this is becoming a habit. First its "feeling bitter" about Krenov - completely wrong, I'm even buying the old twerp's book (not come yet). 
Now its having "a bit of a chip" about the aforementioned. Not true, no chips here - I've bought the book even*, and read it :shock: Anyway he's fairly assertive about his self promotional activities which is OK by me, but does entitle me (and you) to have different points of view.
The thing is that people arrive at woodwork by many different routes, and some of us haven't followed the usual path as found on this group (magazines, catalogues, personalities etc) and we all have something to learnand to contribute.

cheers
Jacob
* £2.50 + pp on Abebooks


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## ByronBlack (8 Aug 2007)

But Jacob - you seem to berate your opinions about the head of anyone who has a different technique or experience (usually a modern non-joyce slant) and generally show a great deal lack of respect e.g. 'twerp'.

And David is usually quite forthright and concise in his contributions to this forum with very little in the way of advertising unlike some others that I shall not name, so to accuse of this is a little unfair. We are lucky to have such a wide range of esteemed members (and I have to include you in that as well).

I'm all for different points of view Jacob as long as it doesn't always have to antagonise, disrespect or generally try to lower the standing of an individual as so often happens.


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## Anonymous (8 Aug 2007)

engineer one":27mae3w2 said:


> snip
> jacob seems to spend more time on site, and many consider such work does not need the same accuracy :? snip


Hey Paul - you obviously haven't noticed that accuracy is one thing I go on about a lot in many posts; extolling the virtues of the "rod system" which is about accuracy above all. Accuracy is something I really bother about and is essential for the sort of work I do.
You are confusing accuracy with "precision". Have to be careful here the dictionary** boys may be lurking!
OK so an ET* can produce a shaving precisely 1 micron thin, but this could be at the same time be innaccurate by 5 inches if he has cut stuff to the wrong length. It's a very common confusion. "Precision" is as appropriate to the job in hand.
Incidentally the rod system is quite free and you can't buy it, which may dismay many, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody somewhere is working on a brass knob encrusted "rod" device :lol:

cheers
Jacob
*ET = those of the "Engineering Tendency"
** "Long Words for Woodworkers" Batsford 1872


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## engineer one (8 Aug 2007)

jacob, that works for me. 
i agree with the difference between accuracy, and precision.

but my analogy is that one is to do with making something work in an existing situation, whilst the other is being made from scratch so needs a different view.

however the old maxim, measure twice cut once is very valid :lol: 

and your knowledge of restoration is really valuable

paul :wink:


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## Harbo (8 Aug 2007)

Getting back to the original thread, my Sunchild arrived this afternoon from Thanet tools - £28.50 inc. postage.
It's made by Gyokucho and has "Razorsaw" printed on the blade but "Sunchild" on the packaging - 20TPI and looks like crosscut teeth?

The Gyokuchos from Workshopheavan are similar but 17 TPI.

Rod


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## David C (8 Aug 2007)

Harbo,

Hope you like it.

Please let us know what you think.

David C

Somewhat bemused to see that Amazon currently do not have Joyce.
Indispensible encyclopaedia for the serious furniture maker. I would not dream of pretending to compete with this mighty tome. Paperback version ought to be available somewhere for less than £30, and I would expect it to be reprinted soon.


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