# Self centering dowel jig?



## transatlantic (4 Jan 2017)

I've been trying to find a self centering dowel jig like below for sale in the UK. Has anyone come across one?







I already have one like this, but I'm not a fan of it. I like the idea of being able to drill more than one hole at a time as it would make alignment much easier. The closet I have come across is the "Axminster No 1 Dowelling Jig", or the "Double Dowel Jig" from Rutlands, but they're not quite the same thing.

This looks promising, but I'd rather something that could be clamp securely.


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## Bodgers (4 Jan 2017)

I battled with a Wolfcraft one and then a Dowel Jointer. They all have their draw backs.

I settled on the dowel centre points in the end. Cheap as well.

I now have a Festool Domino though


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## custard (4 Jan 2017)

Are you sure about the self centering requirement? 

Unless you spend a great deal of money on some serious engineering then any self centering dowel jig would be better described as _approximately_ self centering. In other words any stile and rail you connect with it won't be flush, it might be _roughly _flush, but it'll still have a small step that you can feel with your fingers and that will be noticeable to the eye once a finish is applied.

I don't know about you, but I'd take no satisfaction or pleasure from building to those kind of crude standards.

However, if you mark up reference faces and edges to all the components, then you can use a regular dowelling jig, working from matching reference faces, and get a far superior result. Plus you can joint a thinner rail to a thicker leg or stile and have the rail a bit closer to the show face, which is very common furniture design requirement because it both looks better and allows you to have longer dowels for a stronger joint. 

Seriously, self centering doweling jigs are just hobbyist click bait. Dowels are a perfectly legitimate method of joinery, even in first class work, but do the job with a proper jig.

Good luck!


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## transatlantic (4 Jan 2017)

custard":3ewywxw2 said:


> Are you sure about the self centering requirement?
> 
> Unless you spend a great deal of money on some serious engineering then any self centering dowel jig would be better described as _approximately_ self centering. In other words any stile and rail you connect with it won't be flush, it might be _roughly _flush, but it'll still have a small step that you can feel with your fingers and that will be noticeable to the eye once a finish is applied.
> 
> ...



The centering aspect isn't required at all, I just used that name as that is what the more sturdier ones with multiple same size holes look like. What do you mean by proper jig? can you link to something you'd recommend?


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## deema (4 Jan 2017)

Get yourself a Record 148, these are good, robust and accurate jigs. They are very inexpensive on eBay. Just check that you are getting inserts for the diameter of dowels you will use. Plenty of jigs around, I bought a couple or three to get more drill holes and then some silver rod to make them as long as I want.


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## Steve Maskery (4 Jan 2017)

You know you really would be better off making a decent router mortising jig, one that you can do end mortices with as well as regular ones.
It isn't very often I disagree with custard, but I'm getting very close to it here. Dowels are inferior to a M&T in almost every single case, mainly because of the relatively small amount of face-grain-to-face-grain gluing area, and large amount of end-grain gluing, which is virtually strengthless.
With a mortising jig you can use loose tenons like a domino and get a far superior joint. The only restriction on rail length is how far you can work above the floor, and if you build your jig as a horizontal mortiser, even that limitation is overcome.
Now let's get back to agreeing with custard , dowelling jigs are click-bait for beginners. You will soon get fed up with the mediocre results and be looking for a better setup.


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## custard (4 Jan 2017)

Yes the Record is a good jig at a good price, that's what I used for many years and it delivers accurate and repeatable results. Look out for the extension bars, they're a useful accessory if you're making cabinets from sheet goods or solid wood in panel format.

If your budget's a bit larger then you could look at these,

http://www.dowelmax.co.uk

http://www.joint-genie.com/shop/index.p ... ommon/home

The Joint Genie I particularly like as you can screw it to the workpiece (the screw holes are hidden between the dowels) which makes it particularly accurate. In fact I often make up my own dowel jigs for a particular job and they always get screwed or pinned to the workpiece, but my workshop made plywood dowel jigs will only last for a couple of jobs before the holes get enlarged by the drill, where as the Joint Genie lasts a lifetime.

Incidentally, the main issue with dowelling isn't the jigs, a proper jig, even a workshop made one, is capable of better than one thou accuracy, the main issue is the dowels which can can go out of round. If your workshop's damp it may be worth storing your dowel stock indoors.

Good luck!


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## custard (4 Jan 2017)

Steve Maskery":1csu36p8 said:


> You know you really would be better off making a decent router mortising jig, one that you can do end mortices with as well as regular ones.
> It isn't very often I disagree with custard, but I'm getting very close to it here. Dowels are inferior to a M&T in almost every single case, mainly because of the relatively small amount of face-grain-to-face-grain gluing area, and large amount of end-grain gluing, which is virtually strengthless.
> With a mortising jig you can use loose tenons like a domino and get a far superior joint. The only restriction on rail length is how far you can work above the floor, and if you build your jig as a horizontal mortiser, even that limitation is overcome.
> Now let's get back to agreeing with custard , dowelling jigs are click-bait for beginners. You will soon get fed up with the mediocre results and be looking for a better setup.



Steve, you're welcome to try and pull apart some of my dowelled joinery. I guarantee you'll get a hernia before the joint gives way! 

I agree that a M&T delivers more long grain to grain glue surface, but a well made dowel joint is plenty strong enough, certainly for most modestly sized items of domestic furniture. It's like saying only a Porsche is fast enough to go shopping in, when a Golf is actually plenty fast enough.

Plus, there are applications where a dowel is stronger than traditional joinery, what about jointing a shelf into a cabinet for example? A few dowels at 50mm centres gives way more long grain to long grain glue surface than a traditional housing joint. Or there are specialised applications in chair making where a dowel allied to a very shallow stub tenon is by far the most workmanlike solution to a joinery problem.

I'm convinced that dowels should form part of all furniture makers range of joinery options.


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Yes, dowels definitely have their place in fine furniture. I often dowel carcases together, tops and bottoms with overhangs, to the sides. It is a great way of doing so and plenty strong. I always make a 'jig' for the job though, it is nothing more than a baton with holes drilled into it and a fence glued on. Once the job is done the jig gets thrown away. Fluted dowels make up for the lack of side to side grain contact by the mechanical fit in their holes, once glue gets in touch with them. And putting the odd dowel in edge joints is a great help with alignment during glue up, provided the jig is accurate.

Mike.


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## Steve Maskery (4 Jan 2017)

I did say I was only coming close, custard... 
The two examples you give, however are not substitutes for a M&T. The first is a sub for a housing joint, and I agree, in that situation it is a perfectly acceptable solution.
And yes, in some difficult bits of fancy chairmaking, a dowel can save the day. If it is good enough for Savage and Makepeace, I'm hardly in a position to argue. But the examples I have seen are not really substitutes for a M&T.

For anything structural a M&T is far superior.

For me personally the benefit is also practical, as I am well set-up for doing good M&Ts, whereas I'm not for dowels.


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

Hello, 

Transatlantic, have you considered these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... essem+8350


I've not tried one, but the principle looks sound and the quality of the product is certainly there.

Mike.

Currently listening to Transatlantic.


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## transatlantic (4 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":w0yjny1t said:


> Hello,
> 
> Transatlantic, have you considered these:
> 
> ...



That's a fair bit out of my price range unfortunately. I was thinking under £50




woodbrains":w0yjny1t said:


> Currently listening to Transatlantic.



Awesome!


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## Moonsafari69 (4 Jan 2017)

custard":131650ab said:


> I often make up my own dowel jigs for a particular job and they always get screwed or pinned to the workpiece, but my workshop made plywood dowel jigs will only last for a couple of jobs before the holes get enlarged



What size of dowel do you normally make your wooden jigs for? For general furniture is there a rule of thumb or is it just a case of say a 6mm dowel will do most jobs?


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## Bodgers (4 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":2xqq3cjt said:


> Hello,
> 
> Transatlantic, have you considered these:
> 
> ...



At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

Bodgers":2jeb6oo1 said:


> woodbrains":2jeb6oo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Hello,

And make what in the meantime?

A more optimistic person might have that attitude that for a mere 140 you can do all the things a domino can do and with all the accuracy and speed! And for a hobbyist, that would be the correct attitude, a domino would be immense overkill.

I have looked around for UK available dowelling jigs and unfortunately for the essential accuracy needed, and for dowelling this cannot be overstated, I can find nothing much on a lower budget. The Axminster number one is about the best I can see for about 50 pounds.

Transatlantic, what sort of joints do you envisage doing. For carcase construction I can show you the method I have used for many years, which is free, accurate and quick to do. I make one for one job only, and chuck it, making a new one each time, but they take little time to do and remain accurate for that job. You will need some sort of drill press, though for making the jig with perpendicular holes. I have never used this method for M and T substitutes, but there is no reason it shouldn't work. 

Mike.


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## custard (4 Jan 2017)

Moonsafari69":1aw7ldgo said:


> custard":1aw7ldgo said:
> 
> 
> > I often make up my own dowel jigs for a particular job and they always get screwed or pinned to the workpiece, but my workshop made plywood dowel jigs will only last for a couple of jobs before the holes get enlarged
> ...



6 or 8mm would be the two dowels most used for small to medium sized furniture. Krenov seemed to mainly use 5/16" dowels for his cabinets, AFAIK he always made his own jigs!


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## custard (4 Jan 2017)

Bodgers":2ws4vapm said:


> At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...



Your money, your choice.

I suspect that Dominos only make sense for a relatively small number of users, mainly sheet goods makers or small scale professionals looking to speed up production. For most hobbyists a Domino is more like a Rolex, high status but carp at telling the time! When I think of the furniture projects that are ideal for a hobbyist to tackle, things like this for example, 

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-co ... 4-Seg2.pdf

then it's plain that a Domino is pretty useless for this project, it's either totally unsuitable for the joinery involved or if you could shoe horn a Domino in it would result in a markedly inferior joint or a badly compromised design.

But hey, I guess most woodworkers are far more motivated by kit than furniture, so I've no doubt that Dominos will remain top of most people's lust list!


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## Moonsafari69 (4 Jan 2017)

custard":7io8ur98 said:


> 6 or 8mm would be the two dowels most used for small to medium sized furniture. Krenov seemed to mainly use 5/16" dowels for his cabinets, AFAIK he always made his own jigs!


Thanks, assume a board-end jig would be sized to screw into the end grain? 
For a mid panel T-joint would you use the same design or make one up a with a fence like a T-square?
Now this may be a dumb question but here goes, should the hole and dowel size match and be the same diameter or should the dowel be slightly smaller to allow for the glue up?
Dave.


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## custard (4 Jan 2017)

Moonsafari69":21ybf9s1 said:


> assume a board-end jig would be sized to screw into the end grain?
> 
> _Yes, screwed or attached with a brad, it's on end grain that the jig is most likely to rock about so benefits most from being secured._
> 
> ...


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## Moonsafari69 (4 Jan 2017)

custard":111n775h said:


> However, save all that fancy stuff until later in your woodworking career, keep it simple and use a good quality 8mm drill for both sides of the joint along with a good quality 8mm dowel.[/i]


Brilliant that helps a lot. My next project will be a tv stand and I plan to use dowels to fix down the top so i'll go for the shop-made jig approach. I'm trying to use a new technique on each build, so far it's given me some good learning. Cheers.
Dave.


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

custard":7c9g9zmt said:


> Moonsafari69":7c9g9zmt said:
> 
> 
> > assume a board-end jig would be sized to screw into the end grain?
> ...



Hello,

Krenov actually ground his own drills at one time, something akin to a modern split point drill. Perhaps at the time he could not get good quality lip and spur drills. I know number and letter drills were available at the College of the Redwoods, where he taught, but I suspect when better quality lip and spur drills became available and fluted dowels, which are slightly undersize but expand when water in glue is applied, he used those. He would drill end grain on a horizontal drill, to help with registration, but I'm not sure about using an oversize drill. I should have thought, if he would make any change to drill size for end grain, it would have been undersize, though, as holes in end grain tend to become enlarged. In any case, the College teach dowel resizing to make sure they fit the holes you drill, so the point is moot.

Mike.


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## custard (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":188y81wj said:


> Krenov actually ground his own drills at one time, something akin to a modern split point drill. Perhaps at the time he could not get good quality lip and spur drills. I know number and letter drills were available at the College of the Redwoods, where he taught, but I suspect when better quality lip and spur drills became available and fluted dowels, which are slightly undersize but expand when water in glue is applied, he used those. He would drill end grain on a horizontal drill, to help with registration, but I'm not sure about using an oversize drill. I should have thought, if he would make any change to drill size for end grain, it would have been undersize, though, as holes in end grain tend to become enlarged. In any case, the College teach dowel resizing to make sure they fit the holes you drill, so the point is moot.
> 
> Mike.



Interesting, I never met Krenov but I've met several furniture makers who trained under him, and they all tend to be active users of dowel joinery. It might be that his use of a horizontal drill was a legacy from his Swedish years, most of the continental makers I've met seem a bit unhappy around hollow square chisel morticing as I believe they're more used to slot morticers.


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## RogerP (5 Jan 2017)

Years ago I used dowels then I had a period of trying loose tenons (sort of Dominoes I suppose) and now just cut old fashioned M/T joints which is by far the best method and no special kit needed.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

custard":22y0uvvc said:


> woodbrains":22y0uvvc said:
> 
> 
> > Krenov actually ground his own drills at one time, something akin to a modern split point drill. Perhaps at the time he could not get good quality lip and spur drills. I know number and letter drills were available at the College of the Redwoods, where he taught, but I suspect when better quality lip and spur drills became available and fluted dowels, which are slightly undersize but expand when water in glue is applied, he used those. He would drill end grain on a horizontal drill, to help with registration, but I'm not sure about using an oversize drill. I should have thought, if he would make any change to drill size for end grain, it would have been undersize, though, as holes in end grain tend to become enlarged. In any case, the College teach dowel resizing to make sure they fit the holes you drill, so the point is moot.
> ...



Hello,

I did some training at the Redwoods. Strictly speaking Krenov had retired a year before, but was always around. I was also lucky enough to visit his home and workshop and examined some of his furniture. His horizontal drill/slot morticer was originally an add on to his tablesaw. The college has horizontal drilling machines which were used for slot morticing by hand, there were no XY tables. Horizontal drills were useful for making his planes too. I still have a liking for slot mortices, though use them rarely, I have an XY table fitted to the back of my swivel head lathe and a collet chuck to take the bits/drills, so a lot like the original Krenov set up. Though not as quick as a Domino, loose tenons are easy to do with this set up, accurate, convenient and cheap. I'd like to see someone turn table legs on Domino, and then make the mortice in them. Already having a lathe it was 50 quid to turn the thing into a morticer, horizontal drill, disc sander....

Mike.


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## Steve Maskery (5 Jan 2017)

Funnily enough I've just been given a horizontal mortiser.

Sort of.

It's actually a B&D accessory for a router, c1970, I'd say. There is no router with it, but from the picture on the box it looks like the one my dad had. This kit looks like it has never been assembled, let alone used.

I'm not sure what to do with it, it's a toy, really and I don't have a spare router to mackle it up to.


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## transatlantic (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":2bckqzbp said:


> Transatlantic, what sort of joints do you envisage doing. For carcase construction I can show you the method I have used for many years, which is free, accurate and quick to do. I make one for one job only, and chuck it, making a new one each time, but they take little time to do and remain accurate for that job. You will need some sort of drill press, though for making the jig with perpendicular holes. I have never used this method for M and T substitutes, but there is no reason it shouldn't work.
> 
> Mike.



I'm wanting to construct a simple frame like this for a bandsaw stand (BS300), but have it be very strong with slightly thicker stock, about 40x40mm. I always struggle with stuff like this as making one side is easy, but then trying to attach it to one of the other sides is tricky as you're short of space for more dowels, unless you are very careful placing them or end up drilling into existing dowels.

As the glue is supposed to be stronger than the wood itself, is it acceptable to drill into existing dowels? or would that weaken things?


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## Bodgers (5 Jan 2017)

custard":3rtdygv0 said:


> Bodgers":3rtdygv0 said:
> 
> 
> > At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...
> ...


Maybe.

All I know is that I told myself it was crazy to spend that kind of money for a long time. Then one day, in a moment of madness I bought one.

It is great. I was using dowel joinery quite a bit before and it was ok. With the Domino it is great. Repeatable, accurate, and strong joints.

All I am saying is that 140 is a lot of cash to sink into a dowel jig when centre pins, for me work great for dowels. And they are very cheap. If we are moving up to over 100 then I would put that in a piggy bank towards a Domino. But that's just me.



Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk


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## transatlantic (5 Jan 2017)

Bodgers":12ybggym said:


> custard":12ybggym said:
> 
> 
> > Bodgers":12ybggym said:
> ...



While center pins help to align things, they don't really help with keeping the cuts perpendicular, so unless you're using a drill press, don't you still need something to keep your drilling square? The look like a bit of a headache to me.


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## deema (5 Jan 2017)

That kind of piece is easy with a Record 148. The guides keep the drill perpendicular to the surface. A little practice is advised at first, and for less than £20 the hardened inserts are worth more than that alone. I have used the inserts on a number of occasions to make up my own wooden jigs such as pocket hole, mutlti layered hole patterns when required. The inserts allow repeated use with the concern of inaccuracies building up as the hope gets wider through repeated use. A wooden jig on its own is ok for a couple of drillings, any more and I have found that inaccuracy builds up quickly.

If you get one and don't like it you can simply eBay it again and have lost nothing!


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

transatlantic":2re2fzy6 said:


> woodbrains":2re2fzy6 said:
> 
> 
> > Transatlantic, what sort of joints do you envisage doing. For carcase construction I can show you the method I have used for many years, which is free, accurate and quick to do. I make one for one job only, and chuck it, making a new one each time, but they take little time to do and remain accurate for that job. You will need some sort of drill press, though for making the jig with perpendicular holes. I have never used this method for M and T substitutes, but there is no reason it shouldn't work.
> ...



Hello,. 

I would make two frames with half laps at the corners and then dowel the 4 rails into those to make the 'box'. The dowels will reinforce the lap joints and there will be no clashing holes. The half lapped frames should be the top and bottom with the doweled members being vertical, that way something placed on top will not be able to break the joints. The frame you show has unsupported cross members, which is a weakness.

Unless you are making this as a leaning excesize for joinery, it would be easier and strong just to screw gussets on to hold the frame together. You might want to add gussets anyway to prevent the frame racking.

I gather you do not have a drill press?

Mike.


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## transatlantic (5 Jan 2017)

deema":2nou2fai said:


> That kind of piece is easy with a Record 148. The guides keep the drill perpendicular to the surface. A little practice is advised at first, and for less than £20 the hardened inserts are worth more than that alone. I have used the inserts on a number of occasions to make up my own wooden jigs such as pocket hole, mutlti layered hole patterns when required. The inserts allow repeated use with the concern of inaccuracies building up as the hope gets wider through repeated use. A wooden jig on its own is ok for a couple of drillings, any more and I have found that inaccuracy builds up quickly.
> 
> If you get one and don't like it you can simply eBay it again and have lost nothing!



Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. There are two on ebay atm. Looks like the one will go for more than £20 though.



woodbrains":2nou2fai said:


> Hello
> 
> I would make two frames with half laps at the corners and then dowel the 4 rails into those to make the 'box'. The dowels will reinforce the lap joints and there will be no clashing holes.
> 
> ...



Ah, good idea, thanks. I do have a drill press, yes, so can make up my own jig.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Did you read my edit about gussets?

Mike.


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## transatlantic (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":2g7ibz34 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Did you read my edit about gussets?
> 
> Mike.



Hmmm, well the idea was that it would have draws at some point, so gussets would get in the way. To stop it from racking, I was going to add some 9mm sheet material to each face except the front (which will have draws). The sheet material would be dadoed in. As the sheet material is to stop the racking, and provide more support, I'd need to secure it in place though, which I assume is ok as it is not solid wood, so no movement.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

transatlantic":369bixu3 said:


> woodbrains":369bixu3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Hello,

Ply sides are in effect big gussets, if you forgive the parlance!

If you are adding ply, you need no dowel joints at all, though. Half lap two frames and glue and screw the remaning frame members together through the plywood. It will hold everything together very strongly and will save you money on doweling jigs.

Mike.


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## transatlantic (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":30yl2jor said:


> If you are adding ply, you need no dowel joints at all, though. Half lap two frames and glue and screw the remaning frame members together through the plywood. It will hold everything together very strongly and will save you money on doweling jigs.
> 
> Mike.



Not sure I follow


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Hello,

I'm on child minding duty today, so a bit preoccupied, but when I get a minute I'll do a drawing.

Mike.


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## SteveF (5 Jan 2017)

I know that it is a woodwork forum
but money spent on jig and timber...really?
would you not be better off just buying some aluminum extrusion and fittings to make a bandsaw stand?

just a thought

Steve


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## custard (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":ob9moiqv said:


> I did some training at the Redwoods. Strictly speaking Krenov had retired a year before, but was always around.



How cool is that! I heard he was a grumpy old so and so, what was your experience?


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## Bodgers (5 Jan 2017)

transatlantic":x99utusl said:


> While center pins help to align things, they don't really help with keeping the cuts perpendicular, so unless you're using a drill press, don't you still need something to keep your drilling square? The look like a bit of a headache to me.



Yep, I used a drill press with mine. In combination with a hand drill for longer peices. Last year I built a fairly substantial oak integrated L shaped desk using this method and all the legs, aprons and stretchers are all square.

There are ways to drill a straight hole with a hand drill with good repeatable results. Cut a V channel in a piece of wood as a guide, or get one of those hand drill guide attachments.


Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

custard":39rv4ruu said:


> woodbrains":39rv4ruu said:
> 
> 
> > I did some training at the Redwoods. Strictly speaking Krenov had retired a year before, but was always around.
> ...



Hello,

It was very cool, the college was in an idillyc location and I regret not being able to stay for the second year, but funds would not allow. I had actually been making for a living for quite a few years before I went; it was not my primary source of training, but it was a great experience.

Strictly speaking, Krenov had not retired, he was asked to go as he had upset some students the year before and they had complained to the dean! Yes, he was very opinionated and did not have a filter. He would say as he felt and it was often scathing. I think the rather innofensive Americans could not understand this, but being English and appreciating more eccentric behaviour, I thought he was fabulous. He would pass through the bench room each day, on the way to the machine room as he did most of his machine work in the college workshop, so he could do mainly handwork in his little home workshop. My bench was right by the door, and we would exchange nods as he passed and then he would glance at another students work on the opposite side. This particular student was a second year, whom Krenov had taken exception too a few years before as he had made a set of drums which Krenov was totally opposed to. He was making a rather unusual shaped desk with glued laminated curvy legs and feet. It was all rather American studio furniture without the due reverence for the materials, as Krenov would have seen it, so he was always making nasty glances as he passed. One particular day he passed by and said in a whisper, loud enough for everyone to hear, ' you could put strings on it, but it won't make music!' That just inflamed that poor student so much, but hell, it was funny.

Another student came running in one day in a right lather, took 'Fine Art of Cabinetmaking' book from under his bench and tore it apart in a rage. 'What is up with him' I thought and then Krenov arrived mumbling about something being 'ugly, ugly, UGLY!' it didn't take much to work out that that student, having both arms in full sleeve tattoo's was getting his art appraised! He was made to make a public apology before he was allowed to use the college facilities again.

But he was also very patient, generous and inspirational. Once he just started talking very poetically about wood grain and some coloured flecks in a particular piece of wood, reminding him of orange flashes of flame in the night sky, when he was a boy, from the hot rivets being thrown by ship builders repairing klinker built ships while still at sea. Wonderful.

He was also a bit of a wood theif. I was making a cabinet and had found a rather nice piece of spalted, rippled, ambrosia maple from the wood store, which I purchased. When I visited his workshop, he was coincidentally making a cabinet from the same timber, the next sequential plank from mine. That kind of explained some of the approving nods he gave me as he passed my bench. However, it turns out that a student the previous year had put her initials in chalk on that plank after buying it, only to find her initials rubbed out and JK written there instead. He was unbelievable.

Mike.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Hello Transatlantic.

Is this any clearer?







You need no joinery on the upright legs, there is enough stregth with glue and screws to the plywood.

Mike.


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## transatlantic (5 Jan 2017)

ah, I see what you mean. I wanted to dado it because I think it looks cleaner and hides the end grain of the ply wood.

...I know it's only a shop stand, but it's all practise


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

transatlantic":ysq9lcy1 said:


> ah, I see what you mean. I wanted to dado it because I think it looks cleaner and hides the end grain of the ply wood.
> 
> ...I know it's only a shop stand, but it's all practise



Hello,

I don't think you mean dado, I think you want to put the ply in a groove, or a rebate. Incidentally dado is usually called housing in Britain, though we know what you mean. 



Mike.


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## lurker (5 Jan 2017)

This being a UK forum I'd really like the term dado banned :evil: :evil: :evil: 

Its a housing old chap !

edit: Mike beat me to it


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## transatlantic (5 Jan 2017)

Righto! 

Must admit though, never heard it called housing.


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## Racers (5 Jan 2017)

So a dado rail is a housing rail...


:wink: 


Pete


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## memzey (5 Jan 2017)

I understand a housing to be cut across the grain and a groove to be cut along it. Could be well wrong though!


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## Steve Maskery (5 Jan 2017)

memzey":neizfhyh said:


> I understand a housing to be cut across the grain and a groove to be cut along it. Could be well wrong though!



That is quite correct.


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## wildebed (10 Feb 2017)

Like the OP, I am also looking for a self-centering dowel jig. Despite its limited application and the shortage of "extras" - in comparison to the Woodpecker jig, I think the self-centering jig available from Banggood is worth a punt (I can't post a link sorry) Just google: "banggood dowelling jig". - it's only £47.

I've had a lot of electronic components from these folks and I've always found them to be good value.
The construction seems robust enough and the materials used are (apparently) solid enough. I am particularly interested because it's got the three sets of bushings. 
As I said, I'm aware of the drawbacks - but it does seem reasonable eh?

There's the Woodpecker version in action to be seen on Youtube.


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## transatlantic (11 Feb 2017)

Thats pretty much the same thing I posted from ebay :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Self-Centerin ... 2699741867

Although it looks good, it still doesnt really help with the following kind of scenario :






Where you're building a frame from small, say 2x2 pieces, which I find I'm wanting to do most of (like attaching rails to legs for a table). It'll be good with the left most piece, but awkward with the right most piece as there is very little area for the jig to reference. I guess you could bunch more than one piece togeather to give you more surface, but it's not ideal.


It looks like it's only good for these kinds of joints where you have more width :


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## AndyT (11 Feb 2017)

Transatlantic, if the discussion is still about a utilitarian workshop stand, there's a simple option for your first picture - clamp the parts together and drill holes through both pieces, from the outside. Glue some dowels and knock them in. Flush off the ends when the glue is dry.

This way you can even deliberately angle the dowels, like skew nailing, which you can't do with any commercial jig.


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## transatlantic (11 Feb 2017)

AndyT":1tvkmh7u said:


> Transatlantic, if the discussion is still about a utilitarian workshop stand, there's a simple option for your first picture - clamp the parts together and drill holes through both pieces, from the outside. Glue some dowels and knock them in. Flush off the ends when the glue is dry.
> 
> This way you can even deliberately angle the dowels, like skew nailing, which you can't do with any commercial jig.



Thanks Andy. I had thought of that, but was also looking for ways to make it hidden


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