# Veritas Dovetail saw



## Sheffield Tony (17 Feb 2015)

We mentioned this saw in an earlier thread.

I will admit up front that I am not the most experienced at cutting dovetails, but I have done a few, and tried pretty much all types including mitred, and have been by and large satisfied with the results. Mostly without the aid of a proper dovetail saw, but using a small tenon saw that was my Grandad's - a S&J "Cockerill", presumably 1970's, not hardpoint but with a plastic handle and steel back. 

I bought myself a Veritas saw, the 14tpi rip cut dovetail saw, in the hope it would make life easier. I kind of liked it when it arrived, but have not used it much until now. I'm making a small bookcase, of oak, with the top being joined to the sides with lapped dovetails. Pretty conspicuous, so a good chance to use my new saw. But I am finding that each time I use it, I love it a little bit less.

Years back, when I learned how to cut joints, I was told that, if you position your head directly over the cut, you can, by virtue of the separation of your eyes, see down both sides of the saw plate at the same time, and by sighting down your mark, follow the line quite nicely. A small movement of your head is reflected in the angle of the cut. Works well for me. But - if I try this with the Veritas saw - the entire saw blade, my marking out - everything is obscured by the fat composite spine ! To see where I'm cutting, I have to look down one side or the other, which I find much less easy.
This would not be so bad if it weren't for the minimal set, that means once started a tad off, there is no wriggle room to correct the mistake.

I'm struggling with the handle too. I know that dovetail saws normally have a less vertical angle than a tenon saw (though not why), but I find myself gripping this in all sorts of uncomfortable ways to make a horizontal bottom to my cut. Perhaps it is because I'm used to using the small tenon saw. 

Perhaps I'm doing it all wrong, have got into bad habits etc. Maybe I need mroe practice with it. Maybe I just bought the wrong saw for me. What do you reckon ? I'd appreciate any correction from users who do like them !


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## CStanford (17 Feb 2015)

Nothing beats classic brass-backed British dovetail saws of reasonably decent quality. I've never taken a Lee Valley saw to a piece of wood, nor would I ever. It is probably the ugliest saw I've ever laid eyes on. A design in search of a problem, unfortunately all of which Western woodworking worked out three hundred plus years ago. I've never heard an articulation of what the resin/fiberglass thingy that purports to be the spine is supposed to bring to the table. Just different for the sake of being different, apparently. I guess easier and cheaper to manufacture? Can't think of anything else. Lord, please don't have somebody come along and tell me that the wretched plastic spine/handle costs MORE than a brass spine would. 

I can't imagine that a thicker spine could ever be an advantage, more like something to be overcome, as you're finding out.


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## IHc1vtr+ (17 Feb 2015)

To me the veritas saw's are overpriced and ugly.


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## John15 (17 Feb 2015)

Hi Tony,

I'm on the brink of buying a dovetail saw so your comments and observations on the Veritas are very interesting. I'm leaning towards a 15tpi Pax which gets good reviews - it's just the price that's holding me back. I hope you overcome the difficulty with the Veritas.

John


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## Jacob (17 Feb 2015)

Sheffield Tony":2mdg31qf said:


> We mentioned this saw in an earlier thread.
> 
> I will admit up front that I am not the most experienced at cutting dovetails, but I have done a few, and tried pretty much all types including mitred, and have been by and large satisfied with the results. Mostly without the aid of a proper dovetail saw, but using a small tenon saw that was my Grandad's - a S&J "Cockerill", presumably 1970's, not hardpoint but with a plastic handle and steel back.
> 
> ...


14tpi is a bit coarse for DTs. 18 to 20 better. Thats what you find on the classic S&J types from 50 years ago. There's nothing magic about the Veritas saw but it'll improve with practice!
Not sure about that cross eyed squint down both sides of the blade - could damage your eyesight? I can't do it and gave myself a twinge of headache trying. :shock:


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## Peter Sefton (17 Feb 2015)

I think the Veritas saws are good for the price but the 14TPI is my least favourite out of the range.
The back on the Veritas is 9.5mm wide compared to 7.3mm for the Pear handled Pax 1776.
The Veritas weighs .75 LBs and the 1776 is 1.05 LBs most of this weight is where it matters in the back.

My personal favourite is the heavy weight saw, I find in the workshop once bench tested we sell around three Pax to ever one Veritas.

Cheers Peter


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## MIGNAL (17 Feb 2015)

I don't have that particular Veritas saw but I do have the Veritas 14 TPI X-cut. I also have many traditional brass backed tenon/dovetail saws.
I must admit that I prefer the traditional brass backed saw, with it's extra weight. Having said that the Veritas is a pretty good saw and probably came as sharp (out of the box) as any new saw that I've ever bought, with the exception of the odd Japanese saw. 
I don't mind the handle of the Veritas but prefer the handle on my old Groves. It's not a big deal though. With a bit of practice you should be able to make it work but what do I know about dovetails and TPI? Not a lot.


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## DannyJH (17 Feb 2015)

It may just be your natural technique, which suits your old saw but not the new.

Try a few rip cuts on a scrap piece of timber. Then change your posture slightly, elbow a little away from your body or towards and note the difference. Then notice how you stand while cutting, are you a little too front on to the bench, feet wide enough apart to be well balanced ect. You may become to notice that small changes can change the angle of a cut a fair bit.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (17 Feb 2015)

I have several dovetail saws: LN, IT, Gramercy, Wenzloff .. and both the 14 ad 20 tpi Veritas saws. Once one gets past the issue of tradition vs innovation ... of brass vs composite ... the Veritas saws cut just as well as the more expensive saws. They are well balanced and excellent value for money. The fact is that they cost half what you pay for a brass-backed saw. If money is no object, get a Gramercy or LN. If all you can justify spending is the Veritas price, be reassured that you are getting a saw that works as well, but just is not as pretty (in my eyes). I cannot say that I have ever noticed that the fibre backing impedes my vision, but then I tend to watch the blade at an angle, so perhaps it is a matter of technique.







Here is a review of the 20 tpi that compares it with the 14 tpi and other brands: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... ilSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Sheffield Tony (18 Feb 2015)

Thanks for all the comments. It was worth asking, as my techniques are based on what I learned at school, or from my dad, or from the odd book or magazine, minus what I've forgotten in the meantime, so you never can be sure that there isn't something you're doing wrong. I know from the bits of sport I have done that being aware of the posture you adopt can be surprisingly difficult - you don't tend to think about it much - when I used to row, watching a video of yourself was often quite a surprise ! I will try to think about what I'm doing and my stance a bit more next time I use it (the ones for my bookcase are all cut now).

Peter - I read your article about dovetail saws somewhere, and I think you mentioned briefly sharpening and setting them - could you remind me of what sort of saw set suits these small teeth best ? I have an old Buck Hickman one but it is a bit clumsy for teeth this small. 

Jacob - You don't have to go cross eyed to see both sides of the saw plate at the same time if your nose is directly over the back, and the saw is vertical. Well, I don't think I do ... And I have this nagging suspicion that I would have been happier with one of the "classic S&J types from 50 years ago" you mention instead of this newfangled Veritas !


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## swagman (18 Feb 2015)

Hi Tony. I am surprised Veritas dont supply a laser beam with their range of backsaws. They look a bit Darth Vader in appearance. 

Stewie;


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## Jacob (18 Feb 2015)

Sheffield Tony":2hb41ry4 said:


> ..... And I have this nagging suspicion that I would have been happier with one of the "classic S&J types from 50 years ago" you mention instead of this newfangled Veritas !


I'm sure you would! They are still around on ebay etc £10 ish upwards.


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## G S Haydon (18 Feb 2015)

Thanks for the feedback on the saw. Most likely you are so dialed in with your present set up that any change would feel awkward. I would think it's a matter of keep using it or move it on.


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## bertikus_maximus (18 Feb 2015)

Long term lurker emerging here to stand up for the Vertias saw. To be transparent, the Vertias is the first brand new 'premium' dovetail saw I've owned, so I don't have a great wealth of experience to compare it against. However, comparing it to some second hand saws I owned before, it is excellent. It's incredibly sharp, feels nice in the hand (or at least it does in my hand) and tracks well during the cut. As an example, my ability to saw to a line first time, every time was pretty awful with my older saws but the Veritas is pretty much, as Derek says on his blog, 'point and shoot'. Granted, it still requires some concentration to get right but cutting to the line is much easier with this saw.

In my opinion, for the money, this saw is well worth it. Granted, it might not be traditional in appearance and the 'premium premium' Pax saws etc might be a bit better but given the quality of this saw, I do question the need to spend £100+ when you can get the Veritas for under £70.

I also must be the only person who actually likes the bold design of the Veritas saw!  

Maybe the problem is familiarity with your regular saw when compared against the Vertias? Perhaps a bit like when you drive a different car and the biting point and gearbox is a bit different. Doesn't mean its bad, just 'different' and needs a bit of getting used to.

(hammer)


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## richarddownunder (9 Apr 2015)

John15":3cx41r0v said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> I'm on the brink of buying a dovetail saw so your comments and observations on the Veritas are very interesting. I'm leaning towards a 15tpi Pax which gets good reviews - it's just the price that's holding me back. I hope you overcome the difficulty with the Veritas.
> 
> John



Recently bought a Pax 1776. I've been cutting dovetails with it over the past few days and really like it. Nice fine cut, cuts dead straight and just seems really easy to use. My dovetails have also improved. 

Sorry OP, this isn't much help to you and hope you sort your veritas saw out.

Cheers
Richard


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## Sheffield Tony (9 Apr 2015)

I gave it a seeing to with a file and saw set. Unfortunately it is a bit fiddly both for my eyesight and my rather clumsy Buck Hickman saw set so it looks less pretty, but still cuts better than it did.


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## John15 (9 Apr 2015)

Tony,
Regarding the difficulty in seeing small teeth for sharpening, I bought one of those magnifiers that fits on your head off ebay (can't think of the correct name). It's brilliant. The teeth are clear and magnified making sharpening much easier. I bought the £10 one direct from Hong Kong and it works a treat.
John


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

The design seems more a mandate to differentiate themselves with a certain "look" than one aimed at producing a better saw per se. Classic designs are just that for a reason. It does come in at a price point and it may be the composition spine that helps get it there.


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

John15":3i24bpqy said:


> Tony,
> Regarding the difficulty in seeing small teeth for sharpening, I bought one of those magnifiers that fits on your head off ebay (can't think of the correct name). It's brilliant. The teeth are clear and magnified making sharpening much easier. I bought the £10 one direct from Hong Kong and it works a treat.
> John



Binocular magnifiers is what we call them.


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## mouppe (10 Apr 2015)

CStanford":34jjbf2a said:


> The design seems more a mandate to differentiate themselves with a certain "look" than one aimed at producing a better saw per se. Classic designs are just that for a reason. It does come in at a price point and it may be the composition spine that helps get it there.



I disagree. I can't think of any Veritas products that follow that ethos so why should the saws be different? There are reasons why the saw is designed so, and to be different for the sake of it is not one of them. 

The Veritas dovetail saw was the first saw I bought and it served me well for many years. Eventually I bought a Lie Nielsen saw which I prefer overall. But it is also 1 1/2 times the price for an identical cut quality. 

One of the reasons behind the Veritas handle design is that it makes tightening or replacing the handle very easy because it is held in place with a single brass fastener. And it is a lighter saw than traditional ones of the same size if weight is important to you (being lighter is a drawback for me).


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

You don't think that Veritas has a consistent look through their line? You must be kidding.

They make good products but I do believe in this instance producing 'the look' had primacy. You just can't beat a brass-backed joinery saw.


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## swagman (10 Apr 2015)

Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

swagman":3paqibn5 said:


> Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.



I suppose that's true but brass backed saws have certainly been mass produced before and at a far greater rate than Veritas is called on to produce its composition backed saws. Perhaps this bit of manufacturing know-how has been lost?


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## bugbear (10 Apr 2015)

A quick glance at an old (circa 1925) Melhuish catalogue reveals a Stanley #4 Bedrock at 8/9 and a Henry Disston 12" brass backed saw at 5/9

That's a ratio of 105:69 or 1.52

The cheapest #4 bedrock, presumably made with all the wonders of modern production technology is the QS, at £130 from WSH.

So the going "old price in modern currency" for a brass backed saw is £85.

(Of course, a Clifton #4 is £254 giving a "Sheffield price" for the saw of £167)

BugBear


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

swagman":19g2si94 said:


> Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.



I actually wonder if they wouldn't have produced a better saw if the spine and grip were of one piece and of the same material.


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## bugbear (10 Apr 2015)

CStanford":3ktrcyne said:


> swagman":3ktrcyne said:
> 
> 
> > Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.
> ...



I wonder if they considered it, before rejecting it.

BugBear


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## beech1948 (10 Apr 2015)

I have (had ) 4 dovetail saws including a Veritas 14tpi.

1) Veritas 14tpi. Now sold after 12 months use to a friend. It was too light in weight, the spine was too broad as I am used to 9mm or less. Cut Ok but was not the most comfortable to hold.

2) Groves 18/20 tpi. Ancient (pre WW2) Daily user. Great weight, very straight and strong back, very comfy handle, narrow back vs Veritas. Harder to sharpen and I have just bought a magnifying lamp but all round excellent. Quite hard to find for me and took 18 months searching after using a friends saw.

3) Japanese saw. Lightweight, useful for narrow timber used in boxes. Its taken nearly 12 months to be at ease with using this and it is now accurate and very precise.

4) Marples. Now sold. Was a difficult to decide as the saws size was sort of part tenon saw part dovetail saw and thus just a bit unwieldy. Saw plate a bit thick. Heavy, closed handle - which is not my favourite - poor starting cutting, 14tpi a bit coarse but cut accurately.

Japanese saw is fastest cut. Groves second. Now only have Groves and Japanese saw for dovetails.

I don't think the Veritas is the best choice for a beginner. Something like the Groves, Marples or Tyzack would be fine at 14tpi or higher.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Apr 2015)

CStanford":3jfu8pab said:


> You don't think that Veritas has a consistent look through their line? You must be kidding.
> 
> They make good products but I do believe in this instance producing 'the look' had primacy. You just can't beat a brass-backed joinery saw.
> 
> ...



The Veritas dovetail saw is sold in Canada for $69 USD. Rob Streeper, who makes saws professionally in the USA, did a cost breakdown, and calculated that brass-backed saws on average cost $82 in materials and time (basic wages).

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthrea ... ost1856109

I doubt that anyone selling in the $100 - $120 is getting rich fleecing the public, least of all LV or LN. I would argue that a fairer reflection for time expended for a custom saw is around $350, based on time. That would bring it in line with a premium handplane. Food for thought?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

The Lee Valley price point is absolutely a redeeming factor. I've always thought their pricing very fair.

A Crown brass backed 12" tenon saw sells in the US for $95 (Amazon pricing). It's not a bad saw at all and I think the pricing on it is fair as well. The grip is nothing to write home about but I've seen one recently and they're doing a much better job of rounding them out - it was actually pretty comfortable and the hang of the saw dead on for my taste. It's a traditional set up as far as I can tell from tip to tail, minus a whole lot of attention lavished on the handle which can be overdone IMO.


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## bugbear (10 Apr 2015)

http://www.amazon.com/Crown-Brass-Backe ... op?ie=UTF8

Certainly nothing "overdone" about that handle.  

BugBear


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

It's definitely not a saw for the crowd that demands a $250 grip to go along with 50 dollars' worth of other parts.


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## mouppe (10 Apr 2015)

What I was trying to get at earlier was that the Veritas saw is excellent value at $79. It is half the price of the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw, and as for saws that Lee Valley sells alongside its Veritas saw, you can buy the Pax for $115, the Wenzloff for $159, the Gramercy Tools for $219 and the Bad Axe for $289. It's fair to point out that Veritas is owned by Lee Valley, so there was not much point in them making an identical saw to what is already out there and which they already sell and trying to sell it for $10 less. 

The design may not be to your taste, and the feel of the handle or weight of the saw may feel more or less suitable than others. But the plate is the same thickness and quality as my Lie Nielsen, and the handle is very comfortable. I wouldn't hesitate at recommending this saw to people. It is easy to sharpen (I have the 14tpi), my only grip is that it is too light in the hand for me as was also said by others before. 

Aesthetics aside, you are getting an excellent saw for half the price of comparable brass-backed saws.


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## CStanford (10 Apr 2015)

It is a good value at $79 and there is nothing wrong with Rob Lee and his crew putting their spin on back saws. That said, people for whom it has no aesthetic appeal are unlikely to buy it simply because of its low price. And I'm sure this isn't lost on Rob Lee, either.


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## swagman (12 Apr 2015)

http://lumberjocks.com/JeremyPringle/blog/29675

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools ... vetail_saw


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Apr 2015)

Well Stewie, what is your take on those links you kindly provide? Do you have an opinion about the nature of the comparison made in the first link?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## swagman (12 Apr 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Well Stewie, what is your take on those links you kindly provide? Do you have an opinion about the nature of the comparison made in the first link?
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



Hi Derek. I think it was a little unfair to compare the performance of cheaper Veritas to that of the more expensive LN and Bad Axe.

I was a little surprised when I viewed the close up photo of the Veritas machine sharpened crosscut saw teeth (2nd link). They look very ordinary. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-co ... h-1637.jpg

Stewie;


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## CStanford (12 Apr 2015)

In fairness to Lee Valley there probably aren't very many less-than-$100 saws that wouldn't benefit from a refiling by a talented saw doctor/saw maker regardless of how they were filed when manufactured.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Apr 2015)

Stewie, I am not sure if the teeth of the LV are machine filed - many/most custom saws I know of have teeth punched by a machine, and then hand filed. I know that the early generation saw I received when LV were testing saw plates (prior to the release of the dovetail saw) was hand filed (in Japan as I recall). 

The only issue I have with the LV saws I have is that there is a tad too little set, as they tended to bind at about 1/2" depth (I mentioned this in my review, where a touch of wax solved the problem). This may reflect that I have only used them in very hardwood. I reset the teeth on mine, and they now cut perfectly. When new, the teeth were as sharp as any newly hand-filed teeth. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (12 Apr 2015)

One hopes the picture posted by Stewie is not of a saw filed by hand.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Apr 2015)

CStanford":2buawwmz said:


> One hopes the picture posted by Stewie is not of a saw filed by hand.



Charles, as I said, I do not know if they were hand or machine filed, and cannot find any reference - I think that image is a blow up off the LV website. How do you tell how they were filed? The only clear information (marks) on the image is that they were hammer set. 

But does it have any relevance when the teeth, per se, cut as well as any premium saw? It seems to be a picky, non-issue. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (12 Apr 2015)

I don't know either, but they're just not very well-filed teeth. I frankly can't imagine that the saw in the photo Stewie posted would saw as well as one filed by a really good saw guy. Just don't believe it. If it's true, then we can all just turn a chimpanzee loose with a saw file and not worry about a thing.

Scroll down in this thread to see what a good job looks like, and nice plate too, though admittedly on a larger saw (Daryl Weir)

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthread ... t=all&vc=1


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## swagman (12 Apr 2015)

" The website does not say, but I am thinking that the saw is machine filed and set, there are identical markings on each tooth that would suggest this to be the case, but again I am just speculating."

http://lumberjocks.com/JeremyPringle/blog/29675


The article by Chris Schwartz is discussing the new Veritas Dovetail Saw. But the close up photo of the saw teeth show them as being crudely filed with crosscut fleam.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools ... vetail_saw

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... 68511&ap=1


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## n0legs (12 Apr 2015)

CStanford":3mp4wlor said:


> Scroll down in this thread to see what a good job looks like, and nice plate too, though admittedly on a larger saw (Daryl Weir)
> 
> http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthread ... t=all&vc=1



That is impressive.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Apr 2015)

CStanford":2ninpi90 said:


> Scroll down in this thread to see what a good job looks like, and nice plate too, though admittedly on a larger saw (Daryl Weir)
> 
> http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthread ... t=all&vc=1



Charles, Daryl Weir is certainly one of the masters of saw filing. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## MIGNAL (12 Apr 2015)

I seem to remember reading that the Veritas was machine sharpened. Either way the Veritas saw that I bought was as sharp as one could wish for. The first timber it met was a piece of Ebony and it cut it with ease. It won't do that now but it has an appointment with a saw file.


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## rafezetter (13 Apr 2015)

On the subject of dovetail saws; I bought a saw from Mr_P with a view to trying my hand at / renovating saw sharpening as it's not a vintage saw or anything, but I've looked at it and the plate is not straight and it's thinner than my Marples too - I can bend it with just my thumb and finger.

I was going to cut it down to a straight section but then I got thinking about how far to go as I've noticed that some saws have deep plates and others only a couple of inches, so I was wondering if a shorter plate would help with stiffness but also make it a bit easier to handle as my marples feels "unwieldy" - but this may be due to my having used the gentlemans saw type for years in scale modelling.

I know it largely comes down to personal preference, but I'd appreciate any personal experience input from members anyway.


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## mouppe (13 Apr 2015)

Who really cares about the way in which the teeth are sharpened when you buy the saw? After using it for a short while you'll have to sharpen it yourself anyway. As a matter of fact I eventually put a progressive pitch on my Veritas saw. 

It's almost like moaning that your hand plane blade didn't come honed?!!!


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## CStanford (13 Apr 2015)

Good point Mouppe.


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## Sheffield Tony (14 May 2015)

Jacob":12j3u3nw said:


> Sheffield Tony":12j3u3nw said:
> 
> 
> > ..... And I have this nagging suspicion that I would have been happier with one of the "classic S&J types from 50 years ago" you mention instead of this newfangled Veritas !
> ...



I've picked up an E. T. Roberts and Lee 252 "Majestic" dovetail saw for a tad under a tenner including postage. A couple of hammer taps on the spine got the blade straight. Handle is a bit crude, but it cuts more smoothly than the Veritas. Look forward to cutting some joints.


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