# Anyone want to do a weight loss challenge?



## D_W (7 Jan 2022)

I'm probably a little more than halfway through my lifespan this year, and tip the scales at 212 pounds. If you think I'm fat, I don't care.

I'm in for about 40 pounds by June -I doubt that will happen, but that's what I'm going for. 

Ultimately, I'd like to be 150-160 (the low side of that may be a bit idealistic and is probably below where I should be - 160 would be good). 

Here's the kicker - I eat so much garbage that I think I can hit the goal without much exercise, and I would go so far as to say that if you're going to drop 10 pounds a month, lots of exercise isn't a great idea. I'm going to do nothing more than eat healthy. And then if successful, have to buy a bunch of clothes (not that excited about that). 

Anyone else in?


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## baldkev (7 Jan 2022)

No, i like cider too much  

Good luck though! A friend if mine is currently being a vegetarian to loose weight. I need to get back into weights, its been years.


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## artie (7 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> I'm probably a little more than halfway through my lifespan this year, and tip the scales at 212 pounds. If you think I'm fat, I don't care.
> 
> I'm in for about 40 pounds by June -I doubt that will happen, but that's what I'm going for.
> 
> ...


You know what James Gregory says.

People will do anything to lose weight, Except stop eating. 

I have been blessed with a metabolism which keeps me slim, too slim some say, but I have a sister who has been dieting for 50+ years. Yoyo, Yoyo.
I have various friends the same.

It appears to me that almost anyone can lose weight even quite a bit, but not many (any in my experience) can keep it off.


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## kinverkid (7 Jan 2022)

I'm considering it. I'm 102kg/225lbs. When I ran ultra distances I was 88kg/194lb. My last ultra was five years ago but was only 50K/31 mile? Last year I lost my mojo when my two running buddies moved away and for some reason I couldn't get it back running on my own. So, I think this year I will need to get it back. I'll come back here when I decide to join the challenge.


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## Jameshow (7 Jan 2022)

kinverkid said:


> I'm considering it. I'm 102kg/225lbs. When I ran ultra distances I was 88kg/194lb. My last ultra was five years ago but was only 50K/31 mile? Last year I lost my mojo when my two running buddies moved away and for some reason I couldn't get it back running on my own. So, I think this year I will need to get it back. I'll come back here when I decide to join the challenge.


Go for it - find yourself a challenge and start training....

It's easier said than done....

I failed to finish the Leeds Liverpool canal race and have struggled with motivation since. A challenge would probably get me going but not sure which one....?

Cheers James


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## D_W (7 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> You know what James Gregory says.
> 
> People will do anything to lose weight, Except stop eating.
> 
> ...



I don't have any bad measures at the doc (not even mild HBP, bloodwork is fine). so the doc doesn't get too excited about the weight. At one point, a prior doc said "do you want to talk about your weight?" I said "I'm fat , maybe not TV show fat, but fat for me. The reason I'm fat is because I eat a lot and at this point, I like eating more than I like not being fat, and I guess when I want to not be fat more than I like to eat, then I'll not be fat. As much as I eat, I should probably be fatter".

He laughed and said "you'd be surprised how many people show up here and admit that they're fat because they eat too much".

I said "really? How else would they explain it?".

(apparently it's popular to claim that you have great eating habits but high weight and terrible blood work - for most people, charting what they eat during the day would show that the 9 cookies and half pound of bread that they weren't remembering, along with the sugar with coffee flavor....not so good, and total to something that's pretty easy to chart to pounds per day - like literally 1 pound's worth of junk calories per three or four days)

I had a coworker who would dress you up and down (older lady, she was an attorney) if you ever said you wanted to do something that you weren't doing, and I learned a lot from her about saying "I want to ___". No, you f_____ don't!! If you wanted to do something, you'd be doing it now. If you're not, you don't want to. Don't f _____ say you want to do something if you're not interested in actually doing it!!"

Strangely enough, she was sort of a bleeding heart liberal type, but I guess she must've had a come to Jesus moment with her own self earlier in life to get out of a rank and file job struggling to be an attorney, and she beat me with the stick that she carved for her own behavioral correction. And I'm thankful for it. She would only hit you with the stick if you crossed over into being someone she liked vs. someone she wanted to just feel sorry for.


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## Sporky McGuffin (7 Jan 2022)

I do agree with your cow-orker - people do the things they want to do, and don't do the things they don't want to. That doesn't mean no-one ever does anything unpleasant, but they only do unpleasant things if they want to. Motivation is, therefore, a myth - or, at best, an excuse.


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## artie (7 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> I had a coworker


I had a guy worked for me, way back.
Not a bad worker, but way over weight, and the more money he made, the heavier he got.
But He had an under active thyroid.
That was his excuse.


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## Terry - Somerset (8 Jan 2022)

Running for 30 minutes burns about the same calories as a McD burger. Not eating a burger is easier than running for 30 minutes.

Genetics may be associated an equilibrium weight and shape - but simple physics suggests that:

_energy (food in) minus energy out (keeping warm and exercise) = weight gain or loss _

The solution, as you say, is stop eating rubbish, stop eating as much (eat when hungry, not when you don't feel full), exercise if really motivated (but see first para). 

Change behaviours to to make sensible consumption the norm - cut out cakes, sweets, biscuits, desserts, late night snacks. Make pizza and takeaway a treat not routine. Convince yourself to pay for quality over volume (a bit like tools - by cheap, buy twice). 

If you deviate - feel guilty and chastise yourself. Don't justify it as deserved "because you have worked so hard". Self delusion is seductive. 

40 pounds in 6 months would be impressive - good luck.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> I had a guy worked for me, way back.
> Not a bad worker, but way over weight, and the more money he made, the heavier he got.
> But He had an under active thyroid.
> That was his excuse.



That's what the doctor was pretty much leaning toward. Everyone who went in there "had an undiagnosed medical condition". 

I laughed a little - people are weird about conflict and standing up with a spine. I have a spine, which was why my coworker liked me. She was overridden with excessive empathy and for some reason was drawn to people who were witty with a spine. I'm no longer witty, I guess - too old and too many responsibilities. 

Her husband was an old school Englishman - one who would probably be muzzled in England now - but wildly liberal and wildly unapologetic about having no empathy for people who didn't have a reason beyond their control that they should get it. 

(I told my doc that I"m an applied mathematician and not really into telling fibs about things that are spectacularly unlikely).


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## niemeyjt (8 Jan 2022)

Well, for weight loss, if nothing else, the Covid diet works wonders. After an infection in April I lost 25Kg / 4 stones / 56lbs - which to be honest I did need to lose as my BMI was over 30. I have kept it off (the second issue - it is not just a case of losing it and reverting to previous habits - it is a lifestyle change) even whilst taking steroids and other meds that can lead to weight gain. 

The problem is Covid also took out muscles and nerve myelin sheath (in my case) - so now I am on a high protein / low carb diet to give my body the materials to rebuild - plus loads of physiotherapy and exercise (I walk 10kms walk a day if I can) - both of which are recommended lifestyle changes to control weight in any case. I hope to get back to near pre-covid fitness by 2023 and have little sympathy for anti-vaxers.

Other hints for anyone wanting to do a proper diet:

Get a blood test done first with a doctor to check for underlying issues.

Get a set of scales - no - not bathroom scales, kitchen scales and weigh out what you eat. You will be surprised at just how little food you need.

Eat off side plates not dinner plates - the brain sees a full plate and thinks you are getting more food than if you have a part-filled dinner plate.

A diet is for life, not just quick weight loss then revert to normal - so whatever you do has to be sustainable.

Get a blood pressure meter - and maybe a blood sugar meter - and take daily readings to keep an eye on your body and what it does. Early warnings.


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## Cabinetman (8 Jan 2022)

@D_W How's your consumption of fizzy drinks David?


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## eribaMotters (8 Jan 2022)

Some excellent advice from niemeyjt.
Nov 2020 I had a call from the doctor as my blood sugar reading had crept into pre-diabetes territory at 43. When I checked my weight I was 89kg, which at 5'8" is to heavy. I'm 60 years old and had put on 10/12kg since my early 20's.
Over the following few months I dropped to 85/86kg and after a year was down to 82kg. I've put 1kg on over X-Mas.
I've always eaten healthily, no junk food, 95% home cooked. I just eat to much. I've one nothing radical, I'm not on a diet, you have to think of it as a new lifestyle.
- No booze on Mon,Tue,Wed. 
- I walk to the shops each day and paly crown green bowls weather permitting. Does not sound much but about 13K steps.
- Always eat breakfast, two Weetabix as it's a healthy cereal, or porridge
- Cycle locally instead of car
- No fizzy drinks
- Ration snacks/biscuits to no more than one a day
- Puddings are a weekend treat
- PORTION size, weigh the carbs
- Cut down on cheese
- more veg and less meat
- Do not eat through habit, if not doing physical work and are not hungry why eat lunch [careful on this one]
- Move more
-THINK, DO I NEED IT or is it DO I WANT IT.

Best of luck - Colin


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## doctor Bob (8 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I failed to finish the Leeds Liverpool canal race and have struggled with motivation since. A challenge would probably get me going but not sure which one....?
> 
> Cheers James



I did this with a half marathon many years ago, once done lost motivation. So now pick longer term multiple goals. So one of mine is a set time for 5k at 60, 3 years time. Another is to actually do something every day, even if it's just a 20 min fast dog walk. with mini challenges in between, so the 5k's, half marathons are not the important part but just part of the big picture.
I also mix it up, so run, row, stretch, lift, skip ............
There is something about feeling fit that can't be beaten, the ease of breathing, the fit of clothes, great sleep.


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## johnny (8 Jan 2022)

good luck with this ambition.

There is a lot of incorrect and misleading information on the net especially from Government Nutrition and Health advisory services. We have been told for 40 years to stop eating Fat and Protein and instead eat more Carbohydrate .
Look where that has got us !...Type 2 Diabetes, Arthritis, Dementia, Parkinsons, Hypothyroidism and a host of other chronic health conditions around the World.

You'll not lose any significant weight by exercising, although exercise does have other benefits . Any weight loss is likely to be from dietary changes and eating less.

If you want to lose weight and keep it off without being continually hungry then you need to understand what actually happens to the food that you eat, how your body processes the food and where your energy actually comes from . You'll be amazed when you find out, everything about your weight and health will finally makes sense.

The simple answer to losing weight and being healthy is a Low Carb High Fat and Protein diet.

1.Eat less Carbohydrates and sugars ,especially refined foods, takeaways etc (that includes fruit, below ground vegetables and honey and all the things we are told are healthy for us but are loaded with sugar)

2. Eat more unprocessed 'Real Food' like Eggs, Meat, Fish, and Dairy, Milk, Cream, Cheese, Eggs which are full of the 13 essential Vitamins and 16 essential minerals that we must eat and cannot be found in a Vegetarian or Vegan diet.

Whatever you choose to do it needs to be a lifestyle change .........or you'll simply go back to your old eating habits and start piling on weight again. (Yo-Yo dieting ).


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## Garden Shed Projects (8 Jan 2022)

When working on big sites I was involved in a few fat clubs. Usually starting at the beginning of January and ending the Thursday before good Friday. On 2 occasions I managed to loose 3 stone which is good however it’s the keeping it off that’s that’s the issue. I tend to revert back to my normal weight of 110 kg (17st 4lb) or so after about 12 months.
The one thing I did do which was an eye opener though was to keep a food diary, it’s surprising how much carp you eat with out thinking.


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## Sporky McGuffin (8 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> the 13 essential Vitamins and 16 essential minerals that we must eat and cannot be found in a Vegetarian or Vegan diet.



You can get every nutrient you need from a balanced vegetarian diet, without any supplements.


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## artie (8 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> You can get every nutrient you need from a balanced vegetarian diet, without any supplements.


What about the B12?, my doctor said it only comes from meat and recommended I eat meat once every 7 - 14 days


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## Doug71 (8 Jan 2022)

I am one of those people who never seem to put weight on despite having a terrible diet. I don't do fruit and veg and don't really cook so most meals come out of a packet, probably drink too much also (single man lifestyle). I am on my feet working all day though which I think helps I also play a bit of tennis to a decent level.

Eating does nothing for me, I only eat because I have to and regularly skip meals because I am too busy or just can't be bothered.

A few months ago a friend introduced me to Huel, it's basically nutritionally complete, convenient affordable food, perfect for someone like me. It's not classed as a diet food but you can use it as part of a diet as each meal is 400 calories. They do a few different styles of food like shakes or pot noodle style where you just add hot water. 

It's probably not for everyone but great for me, I do feel to have more energy since using it, I have one of their shakes and and one of their hot and savoury meals most days. Think my body is getting more goodness than it has ever had!

I know this sounds like an advert for the stuff but I am just a happy customer, a friend always asks me if I'm still eating that spaceman food  









Huel | Complete Food


Huel is nutritionally complete food, providing you with all 26 essential vitamins and minerals, protein, essential fats, carbs, fibre and phytonutrients.




uk.huel.com


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## Mark Karacsonyi (8 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> What about the B12?, my doctor said it only comes from meat and recommended I eat meat once every 7 - 14 days



Marmite. Love it cheese and marmite on toast


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## Mark Karacsonyi (8 Jan 2022)

I am in the middle of a weight challenge right now. Am at the age of 57. So far I have gone from 33% body fat, to 26. My goal is 22%. I eat more steamed veg, keep portions low, and fish and chicken. I must say being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, does put another perspective in life. As my personal trainer says, it’s 90% diet. 10% exercise. Starting to love the kettle bells and TRX trainer. Take it slow, take it easy and record your workout progress along with your weight and body fat % readings, it’s good to reflect back on later. Swap beer for red wine too


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## Just4Fun (8 Jan 2022)

I am confused by the terminology.
What is the difference between "do a weight loss challenge" and "lose weight"?


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## Dibs-h (8 Jan 2022)

Mark Karacsonyi said:


> Marmite. Love it cheese and marmite on toast



If like me you hate Marmite - you'll definitely lose weight if you have that on toast.


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## Sporky McGuffin (8 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> What about the B12?, my doctor said it only comes from meat and recommended I eat meat once every 7 - 14 days



Marmite, eggs, and dairy. Harder, but certainly not impossible, for vegans. Quite a few cereals have B12 added. 

I'm not veggie BTW, but I was for about a decade.


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## niemeyjt (8 Jan 2022)

I am broadly following a high proteins - low carbs diet as described by johnny above. I had started in that direction before getting hit by Covid having been recommended to watch "That Sugar Film" (have a hunt around and you will find it on the Internet). It runs contrary to the advice of many - and hence why I said get a proper blood test done before you start just to make sure it won't have a detrimental effect on a pre-existing condition (a friend put his cholesterol through the roof by following the Atkins diet).

It turned out that I am pre-diabetic like others on here - hence why I said to do daily blood sugar tests - home test kits are readily available. I am determined to avoid Metformin with dietary control - and a high protein diet is a way to do this. 

But as I said in my earlier post - measure your food and use a smaller plate - eat less to lose weight if that is your sole objective.

Exercise - maybe it won't help lose a lot of weight - but it will improve your heart and overall health - my blood pressure has dropped from 150/120 to 110/80 - and you can get home test machines for this as well. Yes - I have an added issue that I am trying to rebuild muscles destroyed by Covid - and exercise does seem to help that (as does walking up and downstairs) - so I walk for this even if it does not lead to weight loss.

And I do take extra vitamins and minerals - partly to counter the steroids and partly to speed repair of nerves - B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D3 plus selenium, magnesium, calcium and zinc. This was advised by a pharmacist friend - and no, she was not selling them to me - it was her free advice. Whether a "normal" person needs them is up for debate as Sporky says - but I think I will always now take a multi-vitamin pill when everything else is sorted.

Actually my weight is now stable, even after a "bad" Christmas - and my BMI is around 27 - so I could afford to lose a bit more - but that is now very much a secondary concern for me.

So to summarise, my two top recommendations would be 1) weighing portions and controlling food intake and 2) measure your weight, blood sugars and blood pressure and maintain a daily log to track what food affects you in what ways and identify trends and provide incentives as well as an early warning of any adverse reactions.

I like Marmite.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> @D_W How's your consumption of fizzy drinks David?



Zero. I eat my calories. So, the only thing I really need to do is change the food composition, and that's all I'm doing. More bulk, less carb dense (especially carb dense dry) food.

Not temporary - the diet part is fun to see numbers, but i'm getting older and I want to change things so as not to have problems later. I'm carrying about 50 extra pounds, which doesn't cause any problems right now, but I think it will cause problems later. 

I don't have great genetics in terms of appetite (I eat too much), but am lucky with a lot of other things (no sugar issues, no blood pressure issues, etc - no metabolic or blood panel issues at all). I think for a lot of folks, making a change after problems start is an improvement, but it'd be better not to have to recover from them and one thing that sticks in my mind is that the later you go in life, the more cutting out lipids causes cognitive issues (losing weight late in life and cutting fat out of a diet is highly correlated with dementia).


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## Sporky McGuffin (8 Jan 2022)

niemeyjt said:


> And I do take extra vitamins and minerals - partly to counter the steroids and partly to speed repair of nerves - B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D3 plus selenium, magnesium, calcium and zinc. This was advised by a pharmacist friend - and no, she was not selling them to me - it was her free advice. Whether a "normal" person needs them is up for debate as Sporky says - but I think I will always now take a multi-vitamin pill when everything else is sorted.



I reckon mostly most people don't need supplements, but they're not ruinously expensive and I doubt they do harm.

I have potassium (for leg/foot cramps at night) and chromium (seems to reduce my otherwise Godzilla level hangriness).


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## Cabinetman (8 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> Zero. I eat my calories. So, the only thing I really need to do is change the food composition, and that's all I'm doing. More bulk, less carb dense (especially carb dense dry) food.


 Glad to hear it! Next time you’re in the supermarket and you see somebody with about half a trolley full of the stuff you can guarantee they are a chubkins.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I reckon mostly most people don't need supplements, but they're not ruinously expensive and I doubt they do harm.
> 
> I have potassium (for leg/foot cramps at night) and chromium (seems to reduce my otherwise Godzilla level hangriness).



if supplements aren't addressing something, they're generally associated with higher mortality (as in, people who take supplements regularly for no reason have slightly lower life expectancy. 

I doubt it's the supplements so much causing the problems, but rather eating whatever they're delivered with (impure bits with the supplement and fillers that come with them). 

I do take vit D, though, as I don't get out much. That's it for me. I'd love to have a great story about how it pepped me up, but I can't tell any difference since starting to take it about a year ago.


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## Cabinetman (8 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I reckon mostly most people don't need supplements, but they're not ruinously expensive and I doubt they do harm.
> 
> I have potassium (for leg/foot cramps at night) and chromium (seems to reduce my otherwise Godzilla level hangriness).


Magnesium is very good for leg and foot cramps as well, the sort that’s easy for the body to use is a relatively new one from the MIT clever people in the states. MagnesiumLthreonate Ian


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Glad to hear it! Next time you’re in the supermarket and you see somebody with about half a trolley full of the stuff you can guarantee they are a chubkins.



You're headed over here soon, right? I think there's more "people of bigness", but also more people into fitness - so it's like a big divide between the two. I remember when I was a kid, people around age 45 pretty much packed it in and got baggy jeans and let their upper bodies rot. Not necessarily that they got fat, they just started acting like old people.


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## Cabinetman (8 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> if supplements aren't addressing something, they're generally associated with higher mortality (as in, people who take supplements regularly for no reason have slightly lower life expectancy.
> 
> I doubt it's the supplements so much causing the problems, but rather eating whatever they're delivered with (impure bits with the supplement and fillers that come with them).
> 
> I do take vit D, though, as I don't get out much. That's it for me. I'd love to have a great story about how it pepped me up, but I can't tell any difference since starting to take it about a year ago.


 Maybe not, but there is a recent study from Germany that pretty conclusively shows low vitamin D with a very bad outcome from Covid.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Actually, I should mention above with waiting until late in life to lose weight - no change in life expectancy. There was a multi-thousand person study of *outcomes* in a community called "leisure world" over decades here. 

I used to go bonkers over the fact that everyone was getting statins here because the research for statins was based on supposition (as in, not on a controlled study, and where there was one, the only mention was "reduction in minor events" on groups of about 45 people). 

Then, your island did a solid - one of the death charting groups actually compiled mortality with and without statins, and more or less, if you're not 65-70 or older or have already had a serious event at a younger age, statins do not increase life expectancy. For older folks, they increase life expectancy somewhat. 

Point I'm slowly making is a small population study of outcomes is far better than small study stuff funded by someone selling things. And the study was compiled by p-docs, not college freshmen. 

If a reasonable sample size doesn't find something in actual outcomes, the odds are not in your favor to worry about it.


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## Jameshow (8 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> You're headed over here soon, right? I think there's more "people of bigness", but also more people into fitness - so it's like a big divide between the two. I remember when I was a kid, people around age 45 pretty much packed it in and got baggy jeans and let their upper bodies rot. Not necessarily that they got fat, they just started acting like old people.


When I was there 2 years ago we got the impression that Americans were bigger overall whilst UK were more likely to be either slim or very over weight....?

But perhaps we like in an area of depravation and have jobs which means we meet people who are obese.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Maybe not, but there is a recent study from Germany that pretty conclusively shows low vitamin D with a very bad outcome from Covid.



Many of those studies do - what they don't do is necessarily tell you whether or not you can use supplemental vit D to change your outcome. 

Immune function is the reason that I take it, though - across the board. Mine wasn't low on my blood panel, but I have had asthma all my life (it just rarely actually appears - a few days a year - and it's more of the nuisance type than the person flopping down on the road because they can't breathe).


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> When I was there 2 years ago we got the impression that Americans were bigger overall whilst UK were more likely to be either slim or very over weight....?
> 
> But perhaps we like in an area of depravation and have jobs which means we meet people who are obesity.



it depends on where you are - things are different in various regions. If you go to suburbs, you're likely to find less obesity than you will in rural areas, and more people doing serious regular exercise. And then by region beyond that (as in, philadelphia is likely to have a higher % of people overweight than san francisco, and probably higher than chicago).

(I just looked at the CDC map - I would've guessed above that income is the differentiator - higher income, lower obesity. It is. But the CDC also maps it to level of education - which obviously is tied to income. Life expectancy is also highly tied to income to a point, too -but also by profession. I tease my parents because they groan about all of their years being teachers, but they saved their money and retired at 54. Life expectancy for teachers is higher than it is for white collar workers in general, and white collar workers much longer than blue collar on average. 

And having seen a lot of folks talk about how dangerous their jobs are and how their life expectancy is so short because of it, some occupational information has become available in the last couple of decades (?) - and jobs like police and fire overall have no shorter life expectancy than the general population - whatever hazards there may be are balanced out by generous retirement benefits avoiding poverty in retirement. 

I had a broadcast engineer tell me once that the job was so hazardous that everyone makes it to retirement and dies within two years. He saw it in a newsletter for the group, therefore it was fact. 

I asked him "so, this job is so hazardous that it kills everyone within two years after they stop it, but it doesn't cause anyone to die while they're doing it?" His answer was "yes". I don't actually know what a broadcast engineer is, but I'm guessing it's not the same thing as like an electrical or mechanical engineer - though I know a few engineers in my neighborhood who won't be swayed from their irrational fears by actual odds and outcome data.


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## Droogs (8 Jan 2022)

Since They discovered that I have Haemochromatosis and at the same time as having Lymphoma at the start of the current lurgy pandemic, I have put on ~20Kg. Partly due to having a year of steroids that raised my metabilism by around 400% and being locked in my flat not even allowed to go into the garden. During that time I was constantly ravenous, even while I felt like dung. For me it was also complicated by the fact that my Haemo could not be treated while I was getting Chemo/Radiotherapy. These complications included the fact that I had to avoid eating most veg due to iron and vitiman C content. Vit C can increase the bodies absorption of iron by as much as 3 times. During this time my liver function fell to around 40% and caused my pancreas to fail giving me secondary type 2 diabetes. Until all this happened I had been around 100 - 103KG in weight @ 185cm with a pinch test fat % of around 10 - 15%, even into my 40s due to being fairly active with climbing, cycling (~400mi per week), hiking and the crazy sport of endurance marching (Yomping) picked up as a young 'un in the army. 

Now after having to basically sit on my arsecheeks for 2 years I've gained that 20Kg and put on 6" in waist size. I now have 2 perpetually conflicting conditions that need to be balanced in terms of diet as what is good for the diabetes is very bad for the Haemochromatosis and vice versa. I now make nearly all my food from scratch, including having to make my sausages, pasta and bread etc from raw ingredients. No ready made packet or tinned food nor cereals or most veg for me. It is a pain but also quite enjoyable. Over the last 5 months I have gradually been able to bring my weight down to around 115Kg and hope to get the last 15KG off over the course of this year. As the dietician, haemotologist and diabetologists have told me. the secret is not to just stop all the bad "treats", starve yourself and have rapid weight loss. You have to take the weight of gradually in order for it to stay off. Choose ingredients that are very tasty but take a long time for your body to digest and this will reduce how much you eat far more effectively and only gradually introduce more intensive excrcise as your weight comes down. This way it becomes part of your lifstyle and you are less likely to stop paying attention to your food and exercise regimen once you reach your target weight.


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## Dibs-h (8 Jan 2022)

For the last few months I've been slowly altering my diet to something slightly higher in protein and lower in (refined) carbs.

I love bread, so have switched to dark rye bread (something I discovered in the Baltics some years ago).

Weighing food is a good idea imo - although I think you may need to work out the macro composition so as to keep it balanced or how you need it.

I'm hoping to get back to lifting heavy weights this month - something I used to do before, not only did it help with fat loss, improved tone\musculature but vastly improved my posture and rid me of muscle twinges in my back.


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## artie (8 Jan 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> I am confused by the terminology.
> What is the difference between "do a weight loss challenge" and "lose weight"?


I think losing weight, is when you lose weight.

a weight loss challenge, is when you lose weight with others and keep tabs on how each is getting on.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Droogs said:


> You have to take the weight of gradually in order for it to stay off. Choose ingredients that are very tasty but take a long time for your body to digest and this will reduce how much you eat far more effectively and only gradually introduce more intensive excrcise as your weight comes down. This way it becomes part of your lifstyle and you are less likely to stop paying attention to your food and exercise regimen once you reach your target weight.



this is sort of true (the rate of weight loss), but less of a clinical thing (dieticians will always argue about causes, but I don't know that they're necessarily rigorous - more of a belief kind of thing from one to the next) and more of a continuance thing. A diet that is in place with no plan at the end is destined to fail unless the person in it is the rare type who will continue to weigh and just cut back on food (but I guess that's an unexpected plan). 

The trick with about everything (your situation is more complicated) is to find something you'll do and not find excuses not to. I haven't really had a longer term goal because I don't actually feel bad when I'm overweight - i feel the same. And when I lose weight, I don't actually feel different, so I don't have this kind of youtube video thing of "wow, I've never felt better in my life"

100% agree on not eating stuff that's bland for no reason - it just leaves a further urge. Sugar is a problem for me, too - if I eat sweet stuff, then I will want to eat more sweet stuff - same with refined carbs. If I don't eat them, then I don't have an urge for them. Inertia, I guess.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

artie said:


> I think losing weight, is when you lose weight.
> 
> a weight loss challenge, is when you lose weight with others and keep tabs on how each is getting on.



Yeah, it's a little too loosely defined - a challenge is that - when you don't just lose it on your own, but you rope a bunch of other people into it and people compare results so that they get a reminder from their group about what they're doing and what their goals are.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

ABC's spot on the leisure world (which changed its name since that's very 70s sounding)....data collection. One hopes the producers didn't massage the message enough to make it misleading.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

Here's a starting point in the video about alcohol, vitamins, etc.



(social activity and moderate exercise before this were noted to have a strong effect on increasing life expectancy, but this is well known. Strenuous long duration exercise offers no benefit.

Anyone want to use hand tools? You can get a very pleasant moderate 45 minutes a day if you can find something to do with about 1400 board feet of dimensioned lumber a year).


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## Trainee neophyte (8 Jan 2022)

If I didn't regulate my eating I would look like Mr Creosote - I have no limit to my ability to eat all of the things, all the time.

Things I have found help my personal way of life: eat once a day, and no snacking. Eat a stupendous amount at one sitting, but it still is difficult to overeat at just one meal. 3 course meals because a day without pud is a day without sunshine. It works for me.

Eat potatoes rather than flour, pasta or rice. The good new is that if you subscribe to the Glycaemic Index theory, chips are better than mashed, boiled or baked. It's my theory, and I'm sticking to it because I eat chips (french fries for our colonial chums) 5 times a week.

Load your plate with veg - eat the veg and there is less room for the chips.

Weigh your carbohydrate and restrict that - fats and proteins are good for you, so eat lots. Grow your own meat because that way you can afford to eat a lot more of it. If you are not losing weight, restrict your carbs more, but have more of other stuff on your plate (mmm...broccoli).

Finally, Saturday is Faturday: no restrictions, no rules - go nuts (within reason). Eat what you want, when you want once a week otherwise you will slowly go back to grazing on Mars bars and big macs.

Ymmv


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

What you're mentioning is part of my changes - but it's never really been bread or pasta or any of that stuff that keeps my weight up. It's bored eating at night or between meals. 

But I never found much favor in the nonsense that "potatoes are bad" or this or that type of food based on a specific statistic (presumably, white potatoes are a simple carbohydrate, but ever try to eat 500 calories of them with salt and pepper five days in a row? It's not like pasta, bread and cookies where you'll start to get the urge to do it). 

So the late night eating goes to fruit and vegetables, bulk added the day with things like a bag of cooked vegetables - not as an obligation, just when there's an urge to eat, and care taken not to eat enormous amounts of bulk and almost no calories (not looking to have days with fewer than 1800 calories). If I could have a littel robot that popped out baked potatoes, they'd be a bigger part of the whole plan - as it is, though, they're not that convenient (takes an hour to bake them, or a little less to boil then transition to bake, and then reheating them is a bit of a nuisance if you're not standing around for five minutes while the bulk finally heats). 

One thing I never liked about certain diets (like drink 2 gallons of water or whatever the fad is at a given time) is that adding things on is an obligation. I'm going to do less of things and swap some. it's less effort -and less effort is important. There's a little planning on the front end (veggies don't store as well if they're fresh, and they take up a lot of space, but that's not that big of a deal). 

The rest of this stuff I think differs by individual. My spouse gets pineappled all the time because she thinks that you just continue doing whatever you were doing but eat smaller portions. There are certain things that I don't enjoy doing that with (most junk food, etc) - I'd rather swap the entire class of foods for something else instead and have none of it. So no cheat days, etc, I don't have the bone that needs that, but recognize that it's needed for some folks who do. Once on to something, it's like being on a bee line and I don't like purposely place bumps in the middle of the bee line (part of it is not getting tired of food, either - e.g., if late night chips are replaced with a container of cooked broccoli, I could eat broccoli 25 days in a row and not care (actually kind of like that). 

My spouse is more like:

"we can't have pizza, we had it tuesday last week for lunch". 

??


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## Wildman (8 Jan 2022)

what and burn off all my offcuts, ha ha


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## johnny (8 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> You can get every nutrient you need from a balanced vegetarian diet, without any supplements.



sorry sporky but I have to take issue with that statement ....it is factually incorrect and misleading. its the sort of unsubstantiated nonsense that has caused most of the Worlds chronic illness in the past 40 years.

I would strongly recommend that you do a little basic research into 'essential minerals and Vitamins' find out what they are,...how many there are, ... why we need them and where we need to get them from.


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## Sporky McGuffin (8 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> sorry sporky but I have to take issue with that statement ....it is factually incorrect and misleading. its the sort of unsubstantiated nonsense that has caused most of the Worlds chronic illness in the past 40 years.



There are billions of vegetarians who've proved you wrong every day of the last several hundred (if not thousand) years.

Perhaps you could list the nutrients you think aren't included in a vegetarian diet, and I'll list where they can be had.


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## doctor Bob (8 Jan 2022)

I'm vegan, never take any suppliments.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2022)

b12?


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## Sporky McGuffin (8 Jan 2022)

Marmite and soya products from memory. Also some mushrooms but in smaller concentrations.


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## doctor Bob (8 Jan 2022)

I do have soya milk, may have added supplements.
But I've never felt I had to take anything, feel fit as a fiddle, run most days.


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## Terry - Somerset (8 Jan 2022)

We all have individual food likes and dislikes. For me protein works, vegetables only in sauces and soups, carbohydrates are fine.

Controlling weight rather than letting appetite control you, needs behaviour change. Crash diets fail most of the time.

There are lots of different techniques - you need to find the one that works for you - weighing ingredients, calorie counting, splurge on Saturday and salad the rest of the week, cut out individual food groups etc.

For me - cut out all cake, sweets, biscuits, cut out sugar in drinks. Moderate carbohydrate intake - bread normally only for breakfast, measure rice, pasta, potatoes before cooking. If I get the urge to snack, eat an apple or banana. Accept that Xmas or going out is an acceptable excuse for gluttony and revert to "normal" afterwards. Lost 6kg in 3 months.


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## johnny (9 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> There are billions of vegetarians who've proved you wrong every day of the last several hundred (if not thousand) years.
> 
> Perhaps you could list the nutrients you think aren't included in a vegetarian diet, and I'll list where they can be had.



Watch the video I gave a link to and your questions will be answered 

Alternatively do a google search on 'essential vitamins and minerals' if you genuinely wish to be informed . 
, you might learn something about nutrition to your benefit although somehow I doubt it .


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## johnny (9 Jan 2022)

for anyone interested in Nutrition here is Zoe Harcombe's full submission to The National Food Strategy for England ....a Government led initiative to to devise a National Food Strategy for England . Zoe Harcombe is a PhD and one of the Countrys leading nutritionists 
It includes a complete chart of the 3x macronutrients and all essential vitamins and minerals and the best sources for those nutrients . National Food Strategy – call for evidence – Zoë Harcombe


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## DavidConnelly (9 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> I'm probably a little more than halfway through my lifespan this year, and tip the scales at 212 pounds. If you think I'm fat, I don't care.
> 
> I'm in for about 40 pounds by June -I doubt that will happen, but that's what I'm going for.
> 
> ...


I used a free app called myfitnespal and lost quite a few kilos over a few months. You out in your age height and weight. Then what weight you want to be and how soon you want to achieve it. It tells you how many calories you can eat in a day. It works (if you are honest about what you are eating), by basically pointing out the rubbish. I realised that zi could have a big bowl of vegetable soup rather than 2cbags if crisps. Or gammon steak, potatoes and carrots was around the same as a large bag of dry salted peanuts. You scan the bar codes of what you eat. Or search for the food on the app. At the end of each day it tells you what weight you will be in 5 weeks.


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## Dave Moore (9 Jan 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Running for 30 minutes burns about the same calories as a McD burger. Not eating a burger is easier than running for 30 minutes.
> 
> Genetics may be associated an equilibrium weight and shape - but simple physics suggests that:
> 
> ...


I lost 36 pounds in 10 weeks on Ketogenic diet.


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## Sporky McGuffin (9 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> Watch the video I gave a link to and your questions will be answered
> 
> Alternatively do a google search on 'essential vitamins and minerals' if you genuinely wish to be informed .
> , you might learn something about nutrition to your benefit although somehow I doubt it .



Give me the list of nutrients you think you can't get from a vegetarian diet, and I'll tell you how you can.


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## Doug B (9 Jan 2022)

It always makes me smile when I read carnivores informing non meat eaters they aren't getting essential nutrients & yet study after study has shown non meat eaters have a longer life span


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## Sporky McGuffin (9 Jan 2022)

I do remember from my time as a veggie that there was a particular sort of non-veggie who seemed to take it as a personal slight, and would spout (but refuse to substantiate) all sorts of untrue claims. There was something of a correlation between that group and people who bang on about militant vegetarians - my experience (and having asked my never-was-a-vegetarian wife hers is the same) is that there are many, many more militant anti-veggies than there are militant veggies.

There are, of course, plenty of reliable sources and studies demonstrating that it is not difficult to get every nutrient required from a veggie diet.


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## Daniel2 (9 Jan 2022)

So, @Sporky McGuffin , if I may ask, and it's a genuine question, why
did you stop being vegetarian ?


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## Sporky McGuffin (9 Jan 2022)

I became veggie because - quite suddenly - it seemed really odd for me to be eating bits of animals. Initially I carried on eating fish, but that was a couple of months. I was ovo-lacto veggie for about 10 years, then had occasional fish again (eating fish stopped seeming weird), then eating meat didn't seem weird any more. I don't eat huge amounts of meat, and still have probably as many veggie meals as not.


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## MikeJhn (9 Jan 2022)

Quinine is best for foot and leg cramps, best taken in Tonic with Gin  and of course the essential Lemon, does that count as a vegetable it grows on trees.


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## Sporky McGuffin (9 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> for anyone interested in Nutrition here is Zoe Harcombe's full submission to The National Food Strategy for England ....a Government led initiative to to devise a National Food Strategy for England . Zoe Harcombe is a PhD and one of the Countrys leading nutritionists
> It includes a complete chart of the 3x macronutrients and all essential vitamins and minerals and the best sources for those nutrients . National Food Strategy – call for evidence – Zoë Harcombe



And for anyone interested in exploring a little deeper, here's the Rational Wiki page on her, her fad diet book, her discredited research, and her funding. 





__





Zoë Harcombe


Zoë Harcombe is an author, nutritionist and cholesterol denialist from Wales. Harcombe disagrees with mainstream medical advice on dieting. She has been criticized for promoting misleading health advice that is not based on scientific evidence.[2] She sells a fad diet known as the "Harcombe...




rationalwiki.org





She also got a mention in Bad Science





__





How to read a paper – Bad Science







www.badscience.net





She is very, very far from being "one of the Countrys leading nutritionists" and her advice is bunkum.


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## D_W (10 Jan 2022)

-4 lbs after week 1 (first week always cuts more weight than one would expect just from backing off consumption and dropping carb water)


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## artie (10 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> -4 lbs after week 1 (first week always cuts more weight than one would expect just from backing off consumption and dropping carb water)


Whatever you did this week. Can you sustain it?


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## D_W (10 Jan 2022)

Should be able to. If I charted out the junk that I ate this week, it's about double the earlier list (including dinner with friends Saturday night, and dessert). 

But overall, much of the rest of the food was carbs and sugar (in dry form) replaced by fruit, vegetables, cheese and meat. 

That should be doable as long as food boredom doesn't set in (which results in too little eating which isn't sustainable).


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## Mike.R (10 Jan 2022)

Shedding weight is very straight forward. Eat less and move more.

Unfortunately most of us are not fit enough to burn sufficient calories to lose any appreciable amount of fat... as anyone with an exercise bike will testify. To offset just one Mars Bar will take a couple of hours of sustained exercise.

Much more effective is stopping eating. Moseley's 5 and 2 plan works well. Hunger pangs can feel uncomfortable at first but it's not a bad experience.


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## D_W (17 Jan 2022)

week 2 - just one pound further down - so total 5 in weeks 1 and 2. IME, week two is always flattish - week 1, or really the first two or three days if you cut back food, you get a big water loss (as in, the first four pounds, half real, half water) and then things bounce back so if you hold or lose a little in week 2, things are generally good.


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## Jameshow (17 Jan 2022)

Mike.R said:


> Shedding weight is very straight forward. Eat less and move more.
> 
> Unfortunately most of us are not fit enough to burn sufficient calories to lose any appreciable amount of fat... as anyone with an exercise bike will testify. To offset just one Mars Bar will take a couple of hours of sustained exercise.
> 
> Much more effective is stopping eating. Moseley's 5 and 2 plan works well. Hunger pangs can feel uncomfortable at first but it's not a bad experience.


I do both, if I'm in all evening I'll eat, but if I run/cycle for 2 hours I'm not eating - 6 points!!


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## kinverkid (21 Jan 2022)

Did my first run this frosty morning. 5K at a steady pace. I'll do this for a couple of weeks until I'm back into it before increasing it by two or three kilometres per week. I probably won't go the long distances any more. If I can run the occasional 15K and enter one or two half marathon races a year I'll be happy. I don't have a food problem. We've always eaten sensibly. My problem since retiring six years ago has been an increase in beer intake and a decrease in exercise. So, I need to flip that around. My weight loss goal is 14 kilos so a lot of work ahead.

Gary


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## woodieallen (22 Jan 2022)

Mmmmm...where I live the general population are lard-buttocks to be frank. I needed some attention to my leg and the nurse offered me a tubular bandage automatically. It immediately fell to the floor. "Sorry" she said .."I forgot. You need the normal size"

You are what you eat. And how much.


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

-1.5 last week (1.5 lost- lbs, not kilos)

Definitely room to be more compliant, which isn't a complaint - it's a comfortable margin. My long term trend line to July is supposed to be 0.4 pounds less than where I am. Not going to try to stray from it too much as too much or too little success wouldn't be good in the longer term. 

I have a feeling (from past experience) that once I get closer to about 15 pounds loss, then the margin for compliance will be less.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2022)

Losing weight is dead easy. Basically the ELF regime. ELF stands for eat less food. 50% is an easy target.
Eat your normal diet but half the quantities except drink more water.
Has some nice perks, instead of 1lb cheap steak you have 1/2lb expensive much nicer steak for same price, and so on.
Everybody knows what they are supposed to cut down on - add total ban on sugar itself and sugary treats only very rarely and you're off!
Takes just a few days to get into the habit and it becomes normal.
If you fancy fish n chips have small portion and either share it with somebody or throw half away, ditto pub meals.
What makes it easy is that it's easy to remember and quite enjoyable, especially if you substitute quality for quantity.


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

That's all I'm doing - eating less. 
'
what was fun in the past was going bonkers and dropping 15 or 20 pounds at a half pound a day rate, but that doesn't leave anything for the long term (following the atkins diet and actually keeping the foods on it healthy is a good way to do that - it's too limiting). It's not practical without a follow-out (after the diet is over) plan to eat, though. It's more or less shock entertainment. 

Eating less and not doing much else is kind of boring, but it's easier. I already drink a boatload (but never anything with calories in drink) - upping the vegetable intake is enough to put me off eating more, but it can be so much that I skip eating then, which is a poor long term plan. Weighing in to a trend line (and hopefully eventually a target weight) each day and just staying on the line will be easier.


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## doctor Bob (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Losing weight is dead easy. Basically the ELF regime. ELF stands for eat less food. 50% is an easy target.
> Eat your normal diet but half the quantities except drink more water.
> Has some nice perks, instead of 1lb cheap steak you have 1/2lb expensive much nicer steak for same price, and so on.
> Everybody knows what they are supposed to cut down on - add total ban on sugar itself and sugary treats only very rarely and you're off!
> ...



Jacob you never cease to amaze me at what you are an expert in, duly noted that you are a dietician as well. 
Maybe the gov't could implement this policy, for example all the poor people could be told to only spend half of what they currently spend, drug addicts, only inject half the amount, tax evaders only evade half of what you currently evade, amazing no one has though of this before.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Jacob you never cease to amaze me at what you are an expert in, duly noted that you are a dietician as well.
> Maybe the gov't could implement this policy, for example all the poor people could be told to only spend half of what they currently spend, drug addicts, only inject half the amount, tax evaders only evade half of what you currently evade, amazing no one has though of this before.


You don't need to be an expert to lose weight. Look at all those slim Africans in Somalia and other places!
But our weight watchers want to lose weight, food isn't addictive, weight loss saves money and isn't even unpleasant once you've got the habit.
It's easy but there's a huge industry devoted to telling people it's difficult - a bit like woodwork come to think!


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## doctor Bob (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> You don't need to be an expert to lose weight. Look at all those slim Africans in Somalia and other places!
> But our weight watchers want to lose weight, food isn't addictive, weight loss saves money and isn't even unpleasant once you've got the habit.
> It's easy but there's a huge industry devoted to telling people it's difficult - a bit like woodwork come to think!


I find it easy to lose weight as well, but doubt just because me and you find it easy others do as well. I think you are being naive in your thinking. Sort of kiddie thinking as there are many studies to show sugar has addictive qualities.


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> You don't need to be an expert to lose weight. Look at all those slim Africans in Somalia and other places!
> But our weight watchers want to lose weight, food isn't addictive, weight loss saves money and isn't even unpleasant once you've got the habit.
> It's easy but there's a huge industry devoted to telling people it's difficult - a bit like woodwork come to think!



This works well for people who are poor, too. They need to take more responsibility, work more and at a job that's more valuable (Which may involve a little bit of self sacrifice for self benefit) and pay off their debt instead of spending money on anything expensive. 

I find that part pretty easy, at least to this point. Almost fully funded for retirement at 45 and no debt of any kind for 10 years. 

What was the secret? I wanted no debt and to be in a good position to not work too long - I got there by working an enormous amount my first 12-14 years out of college. 

See how that works?


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> I find it easy to lose weight as well, but doubt just because me and you find it easy others do as well. I think you are being naive in your thinking. Sort of kiddie thinking as there are many studies to show sugar has addictive qualities.


You are telling yourself it's not easy for everybody. That's what they want you to think!  Both the industry selling the books and remedies, and the fat people looking for excuses to carry on with the hob nobs!
The ELF diet is free of charge BTW but contributions gratefully accepted!
Yes food is often habit forming but generally a very long way from drug/alcohol addiction where withdrawal can even be lethal. Ditto food course if you went on a 100% diet - not recommended, but the occasional day on it wouldn't do most people any harm


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> I find it easy to lose weight as well, but doubt just because me and you find it easy others do as well. I think you are being naive in your thinking. Sort of kiddie thinking as there are many studies to show sugar has addictive qualities.



The sort of naive bit of Jacob's post is that it doesn't address the fact that many people don't want to lose weight more than they want to do whatever it is that prevents them from losing weight. The magic is in geting people to take ownership and do it no matter what. The doing isn't that hard. The wanting to do is the part. I want to do now, not because I care that much about losing weight, but because I don't want to have to do it later. I also want to get a few new suits and my cheap bone doesn't want to get them twice. My cheap bone also kind of likes the idea that it costs less to lose weight than it does to keep it the same.


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> You are telling yourself it's not easy for everybody. That's what they want you to think!
> Yes food is often habit forming but generally a very long way from drug/alcohol addiction where withdrawal can even be lethal. Ditto food course if you went on a 100% diet!



It's also just as easy to increase work and decrease spending. There's a few people who eat because they have serious mental issues (not because they're eating victims, but because of some kind of biological issue or because of emotional turmoil from the past or present). Those are the small group that gives people the excuse that it's not as easy as just wanting to lose weight more than wanting to keep it. 

A lot like your idea that someone else is to blame for economic problems at an individual level. That's true for about 10% of people with the problem. Maybe you should use this as an opportunity to let people know that entitlement and personal inaction with a bag of excuses about why it's someone else's fault is a poor way to go about securing your own finances.


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## doctor Bob (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yes food is often habit forming but generally a very long way from drug/alcohol addiction where withdrawal can even be lethal.



Addiction expert as well, well done.
Your lack of empathy, over inflated sense of self importance, excessive attention seeking, enjoyment of others difficulties, is classic narcissistic behaviour.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Addiction expert as well, well done.
> Your lack of empathy, over inflated sense of self importance, excessive attention seeking, enjoyment of others difficulties, is classic narcissistic behaviour.


Calory burning exercise is good too. Does that make me a narcissist? Do I have to be a qualified expert to say that?


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

There's a lot of human nature on display - when something isn't difficult for someone, they believe it's difficult for noone. When their wants aren't met and they can't find an easy way for them to be without self-sacrifice, then that's something very difficult. 

I totally don't get why anyone would be an alcoholic (I like a sip of brandy before bed, but never anything any other time - don't like the feeling). But saying that isn't an honest assessment - I totally get why I like nothing more than a shot before bed - because I don't feel the same thing from alcohol that other people do. 

I have money anxiety - so for me to say that it's senseless that someone wouldn't work harder to get out of debt and stay out of debt and get as far away from it as possible is just as disingenuous - the reason I am relatively comfortable is an outcome of various factors (one being that I was more comfortable working more and more when younger rather than staying idle and talking nonsense about life balance that might be right for someone else). 

Reality is measured in outcomes. If someone can't stand back and say "this is the outcome at this point, let's figure out why if we're going to solve it", then that's super naive. If the answer to all of these things (drug addiction, addictive spening, laziness, crippling worry, overeating, etc) were something simple, it would be in play. Jacob has an extreme aversion to cutting off the narrative of economic victimhood and encouraging people to be more responsible and less entitled at a personal sense, but it would help the vast majority of people with stupid personal finance habits. I wonder if he'll be able to see the connection between that and people who overeat.


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Calory burning exercise is good too. Does that make me a narcissist? Do I have to be a qualified expert to say that?



Exercise is for the brain, decrease in consumption is for the body.


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## doctor Bob (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Calory burning exercise is good too. Does that make me a narcissist? Do I have to be a qualified expert to say that?



to answer the above, no.

deflection is a great strategy. It's irrelevant to me whether you want to take heed of the info I've imparted. Another trait is to say it's other peoples fault (questioning their opinions), as you believe implicitly that your opinion is correct.
The post was really for other peoples benefit rather than yours, hopefully they might understand your neediness a little bit more, and why you do it.
It's an internet forum, you have no influence over me so it doesn't particularly bother me but thought it may be useful to you and others, again it's a forum, ignore or dismiss if you wish, as others can if they believe me wrong.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2022)

I used to smoke a lot and giving up was difficult - until I read the Alan Parker Carr book. Well not even the book just an article about it.
His message was basically just give it up 100%, now, or on a day of your choosing and bear with the discomfort as long as it lasts, which won't be that long.
It worked! Actually kept getting twinges for quite a long time - it felt like being in mourning for a lost one somehow, fading with time
Losing weight the same but a lot easier by far and only 50%! Perhaps some just need the nudge.


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## doctor Bob (24 Jan 2022)

Do you mean Allen Carr, never heard of Alan Parker when it comes to stopping smoking.


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> I used to smoke a lot and giving up was difficult - until I read the Alan Parker book. Well not even the book just an article about it.
> His message was basically just give it up 100%, now, or on a day of your choosing and bear with the discomfort as long as it lasts, which won't be that long.
> It worked! Actually kept getting twinges for quite a long time - it felt like being in mourning for a lost one somehow, fading with time
> Losing weight the same but a lot easier by far and only 50%! Perhaps some just need the nudge.



There are probably some people who like the feel of certain foods more than you liked the feel of cigarettes. 

I smoked in college and high school while working at restaurants. It did nothing for me at all other than give me something to do in a situation of pure boredom. All the old ladies working at the restaurant encouraged kids to smoke, too "you need a cigarette?". They assumed that anyone sitting on break without smoking was just short on money or something.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Do you mean Allen Carr, never heard of Alan Parker when it comes to stopping smoking.


Yes that's the chap! Not the comedian - got confused.
One thing about the Alan Carr short sharp shock is that you do feel the benefit (as well as the loss) quite quickly, rather than waiting patiently for things to improve over time, and lapsing in between. You can feel it working from day one , or day 3 at the latest!


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

*6. Think about smoking*
*Don’t try to “not to think” about smoking – it doesn’t work*


From the carr list - this is kind of the thing for any behavior change. You can't think "I won't ___". That will work for some minority, but that's literally a positive (negative statement, but a positive action). I'm going to sit around and think about not smoking, or not eating or whatever. You're not thinking about what you will do and thinking about whatever it is without doing it is what you've committed to - it's literally on your mind constantly. 

An acquaintance of mine spends most of his money online on music equipment. His house is filling. I absolutely cannot convince him that he has no clue what he's doing because he's committed to buying less. He's got more than 100 guitars and his plan is to not buy more (which he fails at) and any time I suggest he start with a plan that's more like "I will sell two for every one that I buy indefinitely" he has tons of excuses, and then a day later "I am a slave to the guitars and overwhelmed if I get any out to decide what to sell". 

No, you're a slave to yourself and your lack of desire to do anything about it. How many cases do you have to open to list one guitar? one. 

How did I meet this guy? I sold him a pair of guitars not knowing that he was a straight up addict and when he found out I was a woodworker, it's like a separate avenue for him to get advice about what's in the guitars. Now I always respond "no, you need to sell one made of that wood rather than buy one". 

It wouldn't be annoying if people who act like that complain about their inaction to others.


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## Jameshow (24 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> *6. Think about smoking*
> *Don’t try to “not to think” about smoking – it doesn’t work*
> 
> 
> ...


Just ask him how many guitars (substitute planes, bikes, saws etc) can he play at once?!!!


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## D_W (24 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Just ask him how many guitars (substitute planes, bikes, saws etc) can he play at once?!!!



let's shorten that long diatribe!!..

he did say about a week ago "I have a new plan, I'm going to play my guitars and then I won't buy more". OK. that'll work for the time you're playing a couple. 

He sent me a message yesterday that he bought something (parts that he doesn't need or a neck or something), so that whole idea didn't last for long. 

I may try a new way thing with him - every time he asks about advice for a part (especially in regard to if it's worth having part #20 of the same type in another wood), I'm going to say "yeah, maybe two! You need them!!". Eventually, he'll realize that I just tell him to buy everything because telling him he probably doesn't need something from my point of view doesn't work.


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## Droogs (24 Jan 2022)

charge him a guitar each time you give him advice. He'll either stop buying or at least stop asking


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## kinverkid (25 Jan 2022)

Third 5K run this morning. Had two pints in my local with a friend celebrating his driving test pass last night. No other beer for six days. I'm down just over two kilos in a week but that will slow down to something more sensible over the next week or so.


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## johnny (25 Jan 2022)

exercise is a very inefficient way of losing weight...... . This has been proven beyond any doubt countless times by extensive Scientific and medical studies and tests . Meta analysis , peer reviewed and published extensively around the World in leading Medical Journals and yet still this silly ignorant myth persists because folk refuse to do some basic online research and inform themselves.!.

Sorry if this seems harsh but I believe it is important that we all do what we can to prevent the spread of misinformation and potentially harmful advice wherever we find it. The majority of Nutritionists and Doctors still believe that Fat and protein can cause Coronary Heart Disease and strokes ! ..its difficult for them to admit that they have been giving out the wrong advice for the past 40 years. Advice that has doubtless caused many premature deaths due to strokes , CHD and T2 Diabetes over the past 4x decades.

If we want to lose weight ...eating less food and being continually hungry is definitely not the right way to go.....The weight simply goes straight back on the moment we start to eat normally again .

The key to losing weight and being healthy is to eat the RIGHT food and ensure that whether we are a veggie or meat eater that we consume the right amount of essential minerals and Vitamins for optimum health.

Here is a little known fact that most are unaware of......There is no essential Carbohydrate !.....not one ...if we never eat another carbohydrate we will be healthy and fine provided we consume sufficient Fat and Protein and essential minerals and Vitamins

Here is another fact ...every cell in our body uses Glucose for energy .....BUT ....if we eat no sugar or Carbohydrate whatsoever ,our bodies are designed to break down Fat and Protein to make the Glucose we need to survive . Amazing eh ?!.. the process is called Autophagy its the basis of various diets like Atkins , Keto, Low Carb etc

Our bodies treat fat protein and carbohydrate differently If we eat lots of carbs and sugars, our bodies will store the excess glucose as fat and we pile on weight
If we eat less carbs and eat more Fat & protein instead ,our bodies will burn the fat stores, converting it to glucose for energy and we will lose weight . We have around 10x pints of blood in our bodies and in all that blood our bodies maintain just one half of a tea spoonful of sugar . Any more than that and our bodies extract it and store it around our bodies in the Liver ,muscles and as fat around our organs. When this metabolic mechanism breaks down we become carbohydrate intolerant, hyperinsulinemic & Type 2 Diabetic.

Another very successful way of losing weight and maintaining it as a continuing lifestyle is to fast for one day every week . Just eat something light that day like an omelette Alternatively fast in the mornings . I eat no breakfast and if I am occupied I frequently don't feel the need to eat until 2-3pm in the afternoon . We frequently eat not because we are necessarily hungry but because we are conditioned to think we should eat because its breakfast time or lunch time or dinner time etc . The moment I eat something i then want to snack continuously .

Talking of snacking a healthy way to snack is to eat cheese , eggs, meat and fish. These foods contain fat so they fill you up and keep you feeling full for longer. I keep boiled eggs, hard cheese , cream , burgers, l and sausages in the fridge at all times and If I feel peckish I'll eat half a sausage or half a boiled egg or a slice of cheese or some sardines or mackerel. I make my own healthy burgers , Half a sausage or a quarter of a burger zapped in the microwave is a great healthy tasty snack to keep you going for a few hours . When I do eat lunch i'll maybe have a fried egg bacon and mushrooms or a burger with cheese and spinach or a tin of sardines (in brine) with some field mushrooms . I lost 30 lbs in 5 weeks on this diet but importantly did not feel hungry .

If anyone is interested in any of this I've added a link which will explain it much better than I can in just a few sentences.


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## Jacob (25 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> ....
> 
> If we want to lose weight ...eating less food and being continually hungry is definitely not the right way to go.....The weight simply goes straight back on the moment we start to eat normally again ....


You've missed the point - it was eating "normally" which caused the excess weight - you have to work up a new "normal" and take control.
_"eating less food and being continually hungry is definitely not the right way to go"_ ? But if you eat less food your appetite diminishes; you get used to a different regime.
_"exercise is a very inefficient way of losing weight"_ true, but it can be really helpful in terms of making you fitter and feel healthier, along with more direct weight reducing measures. All part of taking control.

Keep it simple, eat less food and get used to it! 
After bit you don't even think about your new normal until when you get offered a huge supposedly "normal" sized portion of something and feel it's too much - you know then that you are winning!
PS A good example of the new normal for me and her indoors was discovering that when we treat ourselves to a takeaway fish and chips one normal helping does for both of us, and neatly fills two plates! Half the price and you don't feel hungry afterwards either.


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## JobandKnock (25 Jan 2022)

--


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## Sporky McGuffin (25 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> If anyone is interested in any of this I've added a link which will explain it much better than I can in just a few sentences.



Zoe Harcombe is (again) not a valid authority. Her primary concern is shilling her own fad diet ,which has been roundly criticised by the scientific community, and she has been proven to have lied about studying for a PhD. She is not an authority on nutrition and her advice should be regarded as suspect at best. See the links I posted earlier - reposted here for everyone's convenience.





__





Zoë Harcombe


Zoë Harcombe is an author, nutritionist and cholesterol denialist from Wales. Harcombe disagrees with mainstream medical advice on dieting. She has been criticized for promoting misleading health advice that is not based on scientific evidence.[2] She sells a fad diet known as the "Harcombe...




rationalwiki.org









__





How to read a paper – Bad Science







www.badscience.net


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## Jacob (25 Jan 2022)

My wife worked for one of the big slimming businesses - run by a very fat lady who drives around in a Rolls Royce. We tried some of the dismal recipes and systems and got put right off!
Not that we have a prob but we like food and drink and could happily overdo it, without a bit of forethought!


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## Jacob (25 Jan 2022)

MikeJhn said:


> Quinine is best for foot and leg cramps, best taken in Tonic with Gin  and of course the essential Lemon, does that count as a vegetable it grows on trees.


Yes perfect but you need 5 a day, with ice.


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## D_W (25 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> You've missed the point - it was eating "normally" which caused the excess weight - you have to work up a new "normal" and take control.
> _"eating less food and being continually hungry is definitely not the right way to go"_ ? But if you eat less food your appetite diminishes; you get used to a different regime.
> _"exercise is a very inefficient way of losing weight"_ true, but it can be really helpful in terms of making you fitter and feel healthier, along with more direct weight reducing measures. All part of taking control.



Point made above - exercise is good for cognition. If it weren't for the brain, most peoples' bodies would be relatively indifferent if no intentional exercise occurs. 

In the event that someone had a weakness (like back stability, core instability, etc), the regime needed to strengthen that is a couple of minutes a day. 

The density of food calories and the ease in getting them is, in my opinion, at the bottom of the problem. 

I used to ride road bike often (this is 60 pounds ago - at 205 now, I couldn't ride my road bike because any belly at all is leg interference). I liked riding the road bike but never lost weight doing it (despite generally riding about 100 miles a week and timing while riding - boring otherwise). I do recall that riding led to sort of a depressed appetite for a few hours, and then the next day, a huge increase (didn't usually ride in the morning as if you really push the pace, you're rubbish for a large part of the middle of the day - would rather have that at the end of the day). What I liked about riding was the feel - run off frustrations, wear yourself out, totally calm afterwards - like someone opened a tap in your foot and drained all of the annoyance from the day out. Great for the brain. 

I can tell at 45 that I'm going to need to start some type of light exercise - not for diet, but to maintain flexibility. 

Thinking back about riding and the ravenous follow-up appetite, that was probably about a net zero (based on the fact that my weight never changed). To cut 500 calories out from normal takes very little effort and the appetite drops rather than going up. 

Saw a lot of big bodied folks at the county park here going around the 5 mile path loop working themselves to bright pink (flush) and they never seemed to change in size.


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## Sporky McGuffin (25 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> Here is a little known fact that most are unaware of......There is no essential Carbohydrate !.....not one ...if we never eat another carbohydrate we will be healthy and fine provided we consume sufficient Fat and Protein and essential minerals and Vitamins



I missed this bit. Might I suggest you google the phrase "fat burns in a carbohydrate flame" and look up the Krebs cycle?

You are posting factually incorrect and potentially dangerous advice relating to peoples' health.


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## Jacob (25 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I missed this bit. Might I suggest you google the phrase "fat burns in a carbohydrate flame" and look up the Krebs cycle?
> 
> You are posting factually incorrect and potentially dangerous advice relating to peoples' health.


And recommending a masochistic and complicated diet of dubious value and exactly the sort of thing which people give up on and give up hope of losing weight. It's what keeps the diet industry so profitable!


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## D_W (25 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> And recommending a masochistic and complicated diet of dubious value and exactly the sort of thing which people give up on and give up hope of losing weight. It's what keeps the diet industry so profitable!



Well, a lot of that is free. If someone wants to drop 15 pounds fast and that's it, the atkins diet is quick, easy, you're done in a month. Many a meathead has tried to cut carbs and eat a lot of meat to "gain lean mass" and found themselves accidentally dropping weight. 

Where things go sideways is when someone can't explain the diet they're giving you without doing it in some simple text and without requiring you to use proprietary foods or proprietary measurement devices. It's the green new deal (gimmick) version of dieting - wealth transfer included, and probably regressive.


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## Sporky McGuffin (25 Jan 2022)

I think there's some merit in a well considered reduction of carb intake, because it will reduce your calorie intake. For me - and I'm not suggesting this is the right or only approach - my weight loss was down to changing breakfast and lunch to things that I liked, but which kept me full for longer, adding snacks (but knowing what my calorie intake was), and forming sustainable habits. I was careful not to make myself miserable. I've kept it all off for several years now - I'm pretty much bang in the middle of healthy BMI.


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## D_W (25 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I think there's some merit in a well considered reduction of carb intake, because it will reduce your calorie intake. For me - and I'm not suggesting this is the right or only approach - my weight loss was down to changing breakfast and lunch to things that I liked, but which kept me full for longer, adding snacks (but knowing what my calorie intake was), and forming sustainable habits. I was careful not to make myself miserable. I've kept it all off for several years now - I'm pretty much bang in the middle of healthy BMI.



you went the direction I'm looking to go. 

In the past (when I was younger), if I wanted to knock back 10 pounds because I was at the top of my variance range, something like atkins was fun for a little bit, but it becomes arduous to keep enough prepared meat around, and to try to keep the fat profile relatively healthy (translation, the one or two times I've had bloodwork done near a short shift on it, the bloodwork was a bit worse solely because it wasn't that practical to find enough calorie/fat/meat intake to keep the fat profile on the healthy side - that being 20% saturated, 80% unsaturated. That requires certain plant fats, etc - kind of gross). 

The point of dropping 10 pounds here or there (or maybe 15 at one point, I can't recall - which would make my comment about the weight range not quite wide enough) was solely to prevent buying new clothes or when it was time to buy them ,not locking them in at the top of the weight range. 

What's not great about those things (atkins, etc) is that in the long term, what will you (not you specifically) do for maintenance? It's hard to follow the maintenance part and _keep weight on. _ And it's a pain while you're traveling and sooner or later food boredom leads to fatigue (from underconsumption). 

I've hit that wall at 10 or 15 or whatever when you run out of a gas and you do get hungry - I'm looking to avoid two things - the fat man's urge (eat a whole bunch, three or four hours later you have ravenous hunger and the urge to eat more) - and the shutdown (losing too much too fast early on, which leads to coming out of the diet and not changing long term habits). 

Landing in the middle somewhere (around 2 pounds a week) eliminates the hunger spike that comes after overeating, and the malaise from undereating. Carb cutback is almost a mandatory part of any diet because it's the calories that make the spike, and it's the ones that you eat when you're bored (because they're easy to eat without any food prep effort).


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## Sporky McGuffin (25 Jan 2022)

I held off a bit because I'm not sure it's useful to say "this worked for me", but possibly the thought processes (rather than the outcomes) will help someone.

I had a 38-inch waist, and wasn't happy about it. I looked at what I ate and saw a few places I could modify things. Breakfirst was first; I'd been having two pain au Chocolat and a coffee - an aeropress, little dash of milk, two sugars. I can't drink coffee without sugar, so that wasn't changing. Instead I swapped the p-a-c for a thin bagel, two slices of grilled bacon, and a little bit of ketchup. That worked well - knocked a few hundred calories out in one fell swoop, was delicious, and kept me full for longer. More on that later.

The other thing I did was swap most of my snacks for a maoam. Sweet hit, far fewer calories than one biscuit.

Next was lunch. I was mostly working from home. I loved pies. Higgidy or Pie Minister type pies. Switched to having half a Higgidy quiche; still hot, still something I actually liked, about a hundred calories less.

It dawned on me that eating bacon every day probably wasn't a great long-term solution. So I did some thinking and some sums - I'm a professional engineer, the only thing I love more than sums is putting a lot of sums into a spreadsheet - and came up with a thin bagel, full fat philadelphia, munchy seeds, some baby plum tomatoes, and a slice of parma ham. No nitrates in parma ham. And another hundred calories dropped.

Then I just got on with it. Weighed myself every few days but didn't stress about it. Over a couple of months I started to lose weight noticeably; after about a year I was wearing 32-inch trousers, and controlling my weight with cake and biscuits. I have added a mid-morning snack of some mixed nuts (because that's better than a biscuit or cake) and sometimes/often an afternoon yoghurt.

Erm. Long Post, sorry. What worked for me was finding out how many calories I was consuming, and then swapping things around, but always having food I liked. No hardship at any point.


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## johnny (27 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I missed this bit. Might I suggest you google the phrase "fat burns in a carbohydrate flame" and look up the Krebs cycle?
> 
> You are posting factually incorrect and potentially dangerous advice relating to peoples' health.



I think perhaps you are getting confused with the various energy producing cycles in the body 

Krebs cycle is not relevant on a low or zero carb diet

On a low or zero Carb diet, ... the body has no Carbs to break down using the Krebs cycle , think about it ....

Instead our bodies utiise two processes called GLUCONEOGENESIS...and GLYCOLYSIS to create glucose from the Fat and Protein that we consume. Think of the Icelandic Inuit who until recent times had almost zero Carbs apart from sa few seasonal berries and lived entirely on Fat and Protein from Whale , Seal and fish .

If a low or non Carbohydrate diet is followed consistently for an extended period our bodies go into a state called Ketosis .This is when in the absence of any Carbohydrate Glucose source from Glycolysis or Gluconeogenesis our bodies use a process called Ketogenesis . In ketogenesis the body produces Ketones from burning Fat, both from the fat we consume and from the fat stored around our body.

There is no Glucose or Krebs Cycle involved in the Ketogenesis process and this is the basis of the Atkins Diet and other Low or zero Carbohydrate diets .


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## RobinBHM (27 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> I think perhaps you are getting confused with the various energy producing cycles in the body
> 
> Krebs cycle is not relevant on a low or zero carb diet
> 
> ...



the initial weight loss on a keto diet is mostly water

the long term effects of ketosis aren’t particularly healthy.


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## Sporky McGuffin (27 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> I think perhaps you are getting confused with the various energy producing cycles in the body



Nope. Nor am I relying on quacks as references. Your advice is incorrect and borderline dangerous.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jan 2022)

I'm afraid I'm a bit old school and just go along the lines, it's OK to be hungry. Don't graze, don't skip meals, 3 average meals per day, nothing after 8pm. I'm vegan but don't think that's an advantage.

Stick to this 90% of the time, but I certainly understand cravings, sometimes I crack and end up eating (gorging) on dung for 2-3 days and it's a real mental effort to break it. My line of though is normally thinking about all the running and rowing etc I've done and it would be a shame to waste all that effort.


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## shed9 (27 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> I'm afraid I'm a bit old school and just go along the lines, it's OK to be hungry. Don't graze, don't skip meals, 3 average meals per day, nothing after 8pm. I'm vegan but don't think that's an advantage.
> 
> Stick to this 90% of the time, but I certainly understand cravings, sometimes I crack and end up eating (gorging) on dung for 2-3 days and it's a real mental effort to break it. My line of though is normally thinking about all the running and rowing etc I've done and it would be a shame to waste all that effort.


This is pretty much me. I'm also vegan but again not a deciding factor in my opinion. The one take away from this post that I would reiterate is that it's okay to be hungry, in fact it's normal and natural.


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## Sporky McGuffin (27 Jan 2022)

I’m no good with being hungry - I go very quickly from mildly peckish to hangry and then full fight-or-flight, so I made my meals smaller and have regular snacks - I eat five times a day. 

If you can learn to be comfortable with being hungry it is a huge advantage. When the world is a bit more sane I’ll see if the GP can solve my hunger issues!


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## kinverkid (27 Jan 2022)

So this mornings 5km run was along the canal (520 calories measured). Very scenic but no undulations so can be a little monotonous on the legs. Mainly hills from now on and canal for the odd speed training. Lunchtime we both went for a 12km round walk to the next village, pint, ham cob and back. The walk will probably be around 800 calories. Something else that I noticed after several months of not exercising is my resting heart rate has now risen to 62 bpm instead of 50bpm. I'm hoping that will come down.


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## D_W (27 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> it's OK to be hungry..



ditto this, though I recognize, like sporky said, some people will find the urge distracting at the very least.

the hunger part on a diet ("hi, your stomach is empty, just letting you know") is an easier thing for me to get by than the large carb meal and the surge that happens a few hours later when your brain is telling you "we're at full steam, you can put more fuel in now without snuffing the fire". 

There's inertia with overeating, and then the other way if you stop. 

The thing that's tougher for me in dieting is the judgement of when to eat if you're going to ignore the hunger signal. Because, for me, and probably for most people, the initial hunger is transient. 

Then three hours later you forget what you were doing and think "God, I'm so tired! what's going on!!".


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## Fitzroy (27 Jan 2022)

Fascinating article on the Inuit who have a very low/zero carb diet. However they also eat a very specific set of fats and proteins in a very specify way, much of it raw. You can live on just fat and protein but not if it's butter and grilled steak, and much of the items that support the Inuit Paradox are protected by the United States Marine Mammal Protection Act, so aren't available in Lidl or Waitrose.








The Inuit Paradox


How can people who gorge on fat and rarely see a vegetable be so healthy?




www.discovermagazine.com


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## Doug B (27 Jan 2022)

Fitzroy said:


> Fascinating article on the Inuit who have a very low/zero carb diet. However they also eat a very specific set of fats and proteins in a very specify way, much of it raw. You can live on just fat and protein but not if it's butter and grilled steak, and much of the items that support the Inuit Paradox are protected by the United States Marine Mammal Protection Act, so aren't available in Lidl or Waitrose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting read thanks, a quick google after reading that suggests the average life span of an Inuit is 64-67 compared to 79 years of the general population of Canada. So whilst I’m sure there are other factors involved it clearly isn’t a diet if you are looking to live to a good age.


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## D_W (27 Jan 2022)

Doug B said:


> Very interesting read thanks, a quick google after reading that suggests the average life span of an Inuit is 64-67 compared to 79 years of the general population of Canada. So whilst I’m sure there are other factors involved it clearly isn’t a diet if you are looking to live to a good age.



I'm not sure there's any good information to say that the diet has much effect either way. The only information that I can find shows very high mortality rates for young ages (relatively - 4-5 times higher than the rest of the population), including a lot of respiratory diseases (like TB).

A lot of diabetes, too. I recall seeing a special on CBC (or something presented by CBC) a few years ago about the fact that consumption of food includes a lot of unhealthy garbage shipped to FN settlements. I vaguely recall that it was obesity and diabetes related and outreach and education was a problem (not sure why - lack of effort, lack of interest, etc).


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## TRITON (27 Jan 2022)

I need to shed a couple of stone I've picked up from being housebound from the pandemic over the last two years. Needs to go.
My cholesterol is spot on, never had issue in that department, but a build up of fat isnt good, especially if sitting around watching tv, eating cheese.

So being a long term cyclist, and having the new fangled modern Ebike, I'm going to embark on a cycling regime thats going to get me out and hopefully putting in about 150 miles a week.
When i did cycle daily before I had a pretty high sugar diet, always nibbling at sweeties on the bike, but you burn it off due to the nature of always being in exercise mode.
Keeps the tummy flat too. Something I could do with these days 

Its not just the going from 35" waist to 38", it's the Sedentary lifestyle I really need to break. That has more of an affect on the body than my cheese fetish.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jan 2022)

kinverkid said:


> So this mornings 5km run was along the canal (520 calories measured). Very scenic but no undulations so can be a little monotonous on the legs. Mainly hills from now on and canal for the odd speed training. Lunchtime we both went for a 12km round walk to the next village, pint, ham cob and back. The walk will probably be around 800 calories. Something else that I noticed after several months of not exercising is my resting heart rate has now risen to 62 bpm instead of 50bpm. I'm hoping that will come down.


No way are you burning 520 calories on a 5k run, 350 -375 max. But sounds like a good run and walk. Yes my HR fluctuates with lack of exercise, 50ish if i'm mad for it 60 odd if stagnant for a month.


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## kinverkid (27 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> No way are you burning 520 calories on a 5k run, 350 -375 max. But sounds like a good run and walk. Yes my HR fluctuates with lack of exercise, 50ish if i'm mad for it 60 odd if stagnant for a month.


I know there are several ways calories can be calculated. I just chose one a minute ago on the Keisan site that gave me 470. My Garmin fenix watch and the Connect site gives me 516 which gives me a close approximation. To me it's not too important for it to be all that accurate and the difference of 100 calories is probably a small bag of crisps. I don't look at them to see what I might be able to get away with eating/drinking because I've burned them off either. Of course when I have lost all the extra kilos I've gained it will be less of an exertion to drag this mass along a tow path or up hills and I expect the calorie loss figure to change slightly over the same distance, speed and time. You're right about the run and walk. We're lucky to live somewhere we can run, walk and cycle in any direction and be in nice countryside surroundings. It is an added incentive.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jan 2022)

kinverkid said:


> I know there are several ways calories can be calculated. I just chose one a minute ago on the Keisan site that gave me 470. My Garmin fenix watch and the Connect site gives me 516 which gives me a close approximation. To me it's not too important for it to be all that accurate and the difference of 100 calories is probably a small bag of crisps. I don't look at them to see what I might be able to get away with eating/drinking because I've burned them off either. Of course when I have lost all the extra kilos I've gained it will be less of an exertion to drag this mass along a tow path or up hills and I expect the calorie loss figure to change slightly over the same distance, speed and time. You're right about the run and walk. We're lucky to live somewhere we can run, walk and cycle in any direction and be in nice countryside surroundings. It is an added incentive.



Cool, I'm pretty lucky as well, I find just 7lb in weight can reduce my times significantly. But I reckon a fast time only burns about 25calories more than a moderate run.


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## Richard Ellis (28 Jan 2022)

Mark Karacsonyi said:


> I am in the middle of a weight challenge right now. Am at the age of 57. So far I have gone from 33% body fat, to 26. My goal is 22%. I eat more steamed veg, keep portions low, and fish and chicken. I must say being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, does put another perspective in life. As my personal trainer says, it’s 90% diet. 10% exercise. Starting to love the kettle bells and TRX trainer. Take it slow, take it easy and record your workout progress along with your weight and body fat % readings, it’s good to reflect back on later. Swap beer for red wine too





Mark Karacsonyi said:


> I am in the middle of a weight challenge right now. Am at the age of 57. So far I have gone from 33% body fat, to 26. My goal is 22%. I eat more steamed veg, keep portions low, and fish and chicken. I must say being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, does put another perspective in life. As my personal trainer says, it’s 90% diet. 10% exercise. Starting to love the kettle bells and TRX trainer. Take it slow, take it easy and record your workout progress along with your weight and body fat % readings, it’s good to reflect back on later. Swap beer for red wine too


Hi how do I add on to the general conversation? I find that when I have a challenge with someone it is much easier to lose weight. I Do a variance on the 5/2 diet. That is 2 days of 600 calories so maybe only protein and veg no carbs and 5 days as you like. Because you are so careful on the 2 days the other days seem to reduce. I am 12 stone it seems that is clinically obese,I want to get back to 11 stone as a starter. A good way as a challenge is once a week you show your weights and see who can lose faster. I do lots of light exercise cycle rather than drive, in reasonable weather, play tennis pickleball croquet and starting to wood turn....does that count.
and I love cooking so the problem is it is always to delicious and i cook too much and eat to much. Happy to start another challenge


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## D_W (28 Jan 2022)

well, if you want to add on to the group, my pace is basically a kilo a week. 

Am I getting the calculations right here? 12 stone calculates to 168 pounds (roughly).


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## kinverkid (28 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> well, if you want to add on to the group, my pace is basically a kilo a week.
> 
> Am I getting the calculations right here? 12 stone calculates to 168 pounds (roughly).


Correct 14lb to the stone.


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## Just4Fun (28 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> 12 stone calculates to 168 pounds (roughly).


Not roughly. Exactly.


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## D_W (28 Jan 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> Not roughly. Exactly.



Thanks, as an american, you never know here if "14 pounds" is exact or if it's just close. Now, i know.


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## Jameshow (28 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> No way are you burning 520 calories on a 5k run, 350 -375 max. But sounds like a good run and walk. Yes my HR fluctuates with lack of exercise, 50ish if i'm mad for it 60 odd if stagnant for a month.


I go by 100 calories a mile not sure where I got it from! So 310cal for 5k.....


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## johnny (31 Jan 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> the long term effects of ketosis aren’t particularly healthy.



nor is being overweight or obese


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## johnny (31 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Nope. Nor am I relying on quacks as references. Your advice is incorrect and borderline dangerous.



you cannot call peer reviewed published Medical and Scientific control studies and Meta-Analysis quackery ..... its the basis of everything we know about everything.

if you have any specific issues with anything that I have said I invite you to tell me what it is and supply a link or links to the published Scientific or medical studies that supports your issue otherwise you are just spouting an uninformed personal opinion which certainly could be described as dangerous


----------



## johnny (31 Jan 2022)

Doug B said:


> Very interesting read thanks, a quick google after reading that suggests the average life span of an Inuit is 64-67 compared to 79 years of the general population of Canada. So whilst I’m sure there are other factors involved it clearly isn’t a diet if you are looking to live to a good age.


I guess we would have to factor in Geographical location , and work lifestyle factors too which would surely contribute.
The Inuit are now as unhealthy as the rest of the Western World since they were introduced to an unhealthy diet high in carbs during some extensive research done back in the early 1900's .I'll have to try and find the article it was very interesting as the Inuit were found to have almost zero Type 2 Diabetes and Cardio Vascular Disease risk due to the almost exclusive Fat and protein diet


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## johnny (31 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I missed this bit. Might I suggest you google the phrase "fat burns in a carbohydrate flame" and look up the Krebs cycle?
> 
> You are posting factually incorrect and potentially dangerous advice relating to peoples' health.



lets settle this nonsense once and for all shall we

I stated quote ' There is no essential Carbohydrate !.....not one '

If you can post any proven and substantiated Scientific evidence to support your rude and inflamatory opinion I will add that link to my post to show a complete picture so that readers can form their own opinions based on facts .
..fair enough ? 




__





Why Humans Don’t Need Dietary Carbohydrates to Thrive


Learn why the brain and body can function well on a diet with little or no dietary carbohydrate.




www.virtahealth.com








__





There’s no such thing as an essential carbohydrate – High Steaks






highsteaks.com








__





Carbohydrate is NOT essential for your health


Carbohydrate is not essential. It can be made in your body from protein.



know-facts.com


----------



## John Brown (31 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> Thanks, as an american, you never know here if "14 pounds" is exact or if it's just close. Now, i know.


They're both units of the same system, so a stone is defined as 14lb. Not like converting pounds to kilograms, for example, where one might use an approximation.
Maybe you don't use stone in America. We have 16 ounces to a pound, 14 pounds to a stone, 8 stone to a hundredweight.
Only us oldies, though. Young people use that foreign metric nonsense that uses powers of ten.


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## D_W (31 Jan 2022)

-1 pound last week - I was a good boy, but I guess good enough. My spreadsheet pace is looking for something more like 2 which might be too tall of an order (actually about 2.2) for relatively moderate changes. 

Or it could just be one week and water. Time will tell.


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## D_W (31 Jan 2022)

John Brown said:


> They're both units of the same system, so a stone is defined as 14lb. Not like converting pounds to kilograms, for example, where one might use an approximation.
> Maybe you don't use stone in America. We have 16 ounces to a pound, 14 pounds to a stone, 8 stone to a hundredweight.
> Only us oldies, though. Young people use that foreign metric nonsense that uses powers of ten.



If you ever see an american use the word "stone" for weight on a TV show over there, it's because they've been told to. It's not used here at all. I've seen americans on the "fat shows" broadcast there using the word "stone" for their weight gain or loss - they probably don't know what the word means, but if they're getting paid, I'm sure they don't care.


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## Droogs (31 Jan 2022)

I've always found it weird that the Americans use all the old English imperial weights and measures but stones. They only describe their weight in lbs and ounces have a smaller ton 200lbs as opposed to 2240lbs for British. Though on previous research I did find this tit-bit of info:

*English units of measurement: Differences between American and British Systems*



Many American units of weights and measures are based on units in use in Great Britain before 1824, when the British Imperial System was established. Since the Mendenhall Order of 1893, the U.S. yard and pound and all other units derived from them have been defined in terms of the metric units of length and mass, the meter and the kilogram; thus, there is no longer any direct relationship between American units and British units of the same name. In 1959 an international agreement was reached among English-speaking nations to use the same metric equivalents for the yard and pound for purposes of science and technology; these values are 1 yd=0.9144 meter (m) and 1 lb=0.45359237 kilogram (kg). In the United States, the older definition of the yard as 3,600/3,937 m is still used for surveying, the corresponding foot (1,200/3,937 m) being known as the survey foot.
The English units of measurement have many drawbacks: the complexity of converting from one unit to another, the differences between American and British units, the use of the same name for different units (e.g., _ounce_ for both weight and liquid capacity, _quart_ and _pint_ for both liquid and dry capacity), and the existence of three different systems of weights (avoirdupois, troy, and apothecaries'). Because of these disadvantages and because of the wide use of the much simpler metric system in most other parts of the world, there have been proposals to do away with the U.S. Customary System and replace it with the metric system.


source:




__





English units of measurement:


Many American units of weights and measures are based on units in use in Great Britain before 1824, when the British Imperial System was established. Since the Mendenhall Order of 1893, the U.S. yard and pound and all other units derived from them have




www.infoplease.com


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## Sporky McGuffin (31 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> lets settle this nonsense once and for all shall we



Already done.

You've claimed that it's impossible to get every required nutrient in a vegetarian diet, which is obvious bunkum.
You've repeatedly cited Zoe Harcombe as a reference; she is a quack selling a fad diet, and has been proven to have lied about studying for a PhD.





__





How to read a paper – Bad Science







www.badscience.net





At this stage it's clear to everyone that your advice is not to be taken seriously, and I am happy to leave it at that.


----------



## Doug B (31 Jan 2022)

johnny said:


> nor is being overweight or obese


But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem it’s the amount of food people put in their mouth.
I’d not heard of the keto diet until I read this thread, from what I’ve read it certainly isn’t a healthy long term diet with constipation a particular problem, this is no surprise as there is no fiber in meat or dairy.
I really don’t understand why carbohydrates get such a bad name, unrefined they can be a fantastic source of fiber who’s health benefits are well documented, increasing your fiber intake to 30g a day is possibly the best thing you can do to not only reducing a whole host of diseases but also increasing your life span.


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## D_W (31 Jan 2022)

Doug B said:


> But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem it’s the amount of food people put in their mouth.
> I’d not heard of the keto diet until I read this thread, from what I’ve read it certainly isn’t a healthy long term diet with constipation a particular problem, this is no surprise as there is no fiber in meat or dairy.
> I really don’t understand why carbohydrates get such a bad name, unrefined they can be a fantastic source of fiber who’s health benefits are well documented, increasing your fiber intake to 30g a day is possibly the best thing you can do to not only reducing a whole host of diseases but also increasing your life span.



I think it's probably important more to "do" than it is to assume with the atkins diet. I can tell you from experience:
1) eliminating processed carbs will probably reduce poo issues for some people
2) not everyone sees increased blood numbers, but the answer is probably two part -1) genetics, 2) what people are eating (and for how long). 

There are a lot of epileptic patients on a modified diet similar to atkins in the long run as eliminating (or nearly) carbs cuts seizures (that is a medical fact). They make a deep pool of outcomes data rather than supposition, but I guess we don't look to their outcomes for some reason. The fact that a modified diet of the type is useful for epilepsy also makes it so that there are docs involved (and not bloggers) in administering and measuring outcomes. No clue if they have any interest in mining the data to look for heart issues. 

There is at least one study showing that blood numbers on the modified diet get worse in the short term, but not in the long term. 

I do think it's not likely to be a lifetime diet for people, though - it's boring and with such a limited menu, it becomes difficult to keep enough food around - especially if you're the only one doing it. I thought it worked well, but as soon as you bounce out of it cheating on eating something, you feel rotten for a couple of days, and in a house with kids, keeping the balance of fats relatively healthy was just too much work. 

The reason I mention outcomes, though, is that associating conclusions to measures that "could or may" when actual outcomes are observable often leads to errors. For a long time, statins were assumed to be better for most (and in some cases, proposed for all) because bloodwork correlated to cardio and stroke risk. That was seemingly enough. 

It turns out, using statins to get bloodwork to look good before about age 65 or 70 has no correlation with better mortality or morbidity, but with significant side effect profiles. 

Thankfully, someone finally measured mortality and morbidity instead of bloodwork for a small group. 









Statins: figures on the pulse


Lisanne Gitsels and Elena Kulinskaya quantify the impact of statins on longevity




www.theactuary.com





Separately, I don't think most people will be on the atkins diet long enough to prove out long term numbers - aside possibly from diabetics and epileptics. It's novel, but not for me. If the overall effect was as bad as vegans think it is, though, there would be definitive data - outcomes based - pretty quickly. 

(I also don't believe a vegan diet is unhealthy - though my pdoc likes to talk about the worst bloodwork he sees being from vegans......I can't imagine making it healthy is any more difficult than studying where to get a healthier fat balance in a modified atkins diet (even though it results in eating stuff that just doesn't taste very good in the case of the atkins))


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## Doug B (31 Jan 2022)

Personally I don’t think a Vegan diet is that healthy certainly from what I’ve read it has no advantage with regard to longevity of life over a vegetarian diet.
I am neither vegetarian or Vegan though I don’t eat meat but that’s more to do with the risks attributed to meat proven through medical experimentation. I try to follow a Mediterranean style diet as much as possbile with an emphasis on high fiber intake, over the years I’ve found it has served my well in keeping my weight fairly stable.
My failing is alcohol & the hollow calories it contains but I know from past experience that simply laying off the bottle will see any weight gained being lost without altering my food intake.


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## Jameshow (31 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> I think it's probably important more to "do" than it is to assume with the atkins diet. I can tell you from experience:
> 1) eliminating processed carbs will probably reduce poo issues for some people
> 2) not everyone sees increased blood numbers, but the answer is probably two part -1) genetics, 2) what people are eating (and for how long).
> 
> ...


Is processed carbs about like chipboard, MDF, and OSB to woodworkers! 

Useful but not good in large measures!!!


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## D_W (31 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Is processed carbs about like chipboard, MDF, and OSB to woodworkers!
> 
> Useful but not good in large measures!!!



I should've referred to that as refined carbs like white flour, etc. I'd bet white flour has a lot to do. Plus, dudes don't have much trouble with that, anyway - I know that's not universal, but saw a lady PCP once mention that in decades, it was a daily issue with the ladies and three men ever had issues big enough to speak up about.

that said, I don't think simple carbs that don't come in a whole food are particular great for folks - like MDF - the uniformity and density don't seem to be common in nature.

(Maybe they decrease our ability to hold screws, too!)


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## johnny (1 Feb 2022)

Doug B said:


> But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem it’s the amount of food people put in their mouth.


Doug there is probably less than one tenth of 1% of the Worlds population are Vegan ......its an absolute miniscule percentage
By your argument 10% of 0.1% is nothing ...its not representative and of absolutely no relevance .
If you buy 100 oranges and take just one orange and cut it into 10 pieces and take one of those 10 pieces and say this one little piece of an orange is a significant indicator about the other 99.9 oranges 

Think of it another way ......99.9% of the World are meat eaters therefore by your argument 33% of the Worlds population are overweight ! ( its actually far higher than that)

I think most of us are aware now that Carbohydrates are the source of all the Worlds Chronic Health conditions .You cannot pick up a newspaper or switch on the TV without being bombarded with it .It never ceases to amaze me how the vast majority of folk refuse to open their minds and become informed about anything but would rather stick their heads in the sand and refuse to consider anything but their own uninformed opinions ..... its why we are in a Worldwide Health crisis .


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## Doug B (1 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> Doug there is probably less than one tenth of 1% of the Worlds population are Vegan ......its an absolute miniscule percentage


I think you’ll find it’s almost 1% which equates to 79 million people, that’s an awful lot of people.



johnny said:


> Think of it another way ......99.9% of the World are meat eaters therefore by your argument 33% of the Worlds population are overweight ! ( its actually far higher than that)



Do you just make these figures up? It’s estimated 22% of the worlds population is vegetarian & 39% of the worlds population of adults meat eaters & non meat eaters are over weight.


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## Sporky McGuffin (1 Feb 2022)

Doug B said:


> Do you just make these figures up?



Yes, he does - or posts references to junk sites. I'd suggest you put him on ignore, he has nothing of value to contribute.

His primary reference is a woman selling a fad diet book, who has been proven to have lied about studying for a PhD. See (again) Zoë Harcombe - RationalWiki


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## Jacob (3 Feb 2022)

Just been reminded of top tip for those who try the ELF diet (acronym for "Eat Less Food"). 
3 days in hospital - food is very normal ( a bit like school dinners) but easily half the quantities of typical pub trade etc. But served on half sized plates! A cunning move! Plates about 8" dia.


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## johnny (3 Feb 2022)

Doug B said:


> I think you’ll find it’s almost 1% which equates to 79 million people, that’s an awful lot of people.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you just make these figures up? It’s estimated 22% of the worlds population is vegetarian & 39% of the worlds population of adults meat eaters & non meat eaters are over weight.


Doug
I was responding to your statement about Veganism representing 10% of the Worlds diet . Here is your statement .
quote_*' *But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under *10% of vegans* so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem '_ I pass your comment straight back at you.!

Quote ' _It’s estimated *22% of the worlds population is vegetarian*'_

Where did you read that 1/5th of the Worlds population are Vegetarian ? 
please show us your reference source .
I am not trying to start an argument with you ...As an academic and a Type 2 Diabetic I have a genuine interest in all things related to diet and health.


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## Jacob (3 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> Doug
> I was responding to your statement about Veganism representing 10% of the Worlds diet . Here is your statement .
> quote_*' *But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under *10% of vegans* so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem '_ I pass your comment straight back at you.!
> 
> ...


"As an academic" perhaps you could show us your reference sources for the most reliable figures?


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## D_W (3 Feb 2022)

Jacob said:


> Just been reminded of top tip for those who try the ELF diet (acronym for "Eat Less Food").
> 3 days in hospital - food is very normal ( a bit like school dinners) but easily half the quantities of typical pub trade etc. But served on half sized plates! A cunning move! Plates about 8" dia.



That's different than here - plates are normal size, and interestingly, you're in the hospital here and dessert is offered with meals. 

But maybe it's me (picky, like plain food and prefer it to be palatable and not have funny textures), it was still easy to eat relatively little of it. 

ELF with a bunch of tricks is a fine thing to offer, but people tend to focus on the tricks and not what they're trying to do with them. There's nothing wrong with measuring things and quantifying them - and then come up with the bag of tricks to meet them. My spouse is one of those people who constantly has ever rotating "tricks" suggestions and she's not that excited if you do something that she didn't advise. As in, in this case (probably said it already), she wants me to eat smaller portions all the time, then not sugary food, then not too much of this or that (fat, whatever else), but if it's something like "well, I don't have any specific thoughts other than eating less rubbish to eat less overall, but it's not really a diet at this point, it's an age related change and a permanent one". 

If smaller plates is one of the tricks, that's fine. If eating twice a day instead of three is one of the tricks, fine. If making one of the meals or even two all whole foods, great - whatever it takes. It's all measurable. One of my tricks is that the weighing has to be every day. If it takes longer than expected (I'd like to drop 55 pounds from January to July, but that's probably a bit too much and it may take losing more than just fat to do it), no problem. If I step away from weighing on a regular basis, then I automatically start seeing a cheat here or there (not even a purposeful one, like an event, business dinner, etc) as fine "catch up by the end of the week". 

Weighing every day "not having it, will be on the scale tomorrow morning and will see the extra water retention and get annoyed".


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## johnny (3 Feb 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Yes, he does - or posts references to junk sites. I'd suggest you put him on ignore, he has nothing of value to contribute.
> 
> His primary reference is a woman selling a fad diet book, who lied for years that she had a PhD. See (again) Zoë Harcombe - RationalWiki



Zoe Harcombe does have a PHD which anyone can check that here .

To falsely accuse someone of lying is Libelous

Unless you can provide definitive proof of your accusation .....such as a copy of something that Zoe has either said or written prior to obtaining her PhD in March 2016 I would very strongly suggest that you remove your Defamatory accusation before you find yourself and this Forum facing a very costly and embarrassing Court Action.

Zoe has achieved a BA and MA in Mathematics and Economics and a PhD in Public Health Nutrition and was Vice President for Human Resources for Europe, Middle East and Africa .She has also written many books and published many peer reviewed research papers in numerous leading Medical and Scientific Journals .She is widely recognised as one of the Worlds most distinguished and knowledgeable experts on Public Health and Nutrition and is regularly invited to speak on Health and Nutrition at events around the World. 

That incredible achievement is something to admire and respect ........not something to try to belittle or ridicule as you have done... ..............

it just shows every member on this Forum what kind of character you have








About Zoë Harcombe, PhD


Independent author, researcher and speaker in the field of diet, health and nutrition Dr. Zoë Harcombe, PhD is a Cambridge University graduate with a BA and MA in economics/maths. Zoë enjoyed a successful career in blue




denversdietdoctor.com


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## John Brown (3 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> Zoe Harcombe does have a PHD which anyone can check that here .
> 
> To falsely accuse someone of lying is Libelous
> 
> ...





johnny said:


> Zoe Harcombe does have a PHD which anyone can check that here .
> 
> To falsely accuse someone of lying is Libelous
> 
> ...


I knew I'd seen that name before.




__





How to read a paper – Bad Science







www.badscience.net





She may well have a PHD now, but that doesn't preclude her from having lied about it in the past.
As for being vice president, at somewhere like JP Morgan, about half the staff have that title. My wife was a VP there. If she has a PHD, she's keeping it secret.
Not that I have a dog in this fight...


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## johnny (3 Feb 2022)

John Brown said:


> I knew I'd seen that name before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well as I have already said John unless you can show indisputable evidence of Zoe Harcombe not having been awarded a PhD.... I would suggest that you do not add fuel to the fire in ignorance....... 

Nothing you or anyone else can say can take away her prodigeous Academic achievements and anyone attempting to belittle another persons academic achievements is nothing short of contemptuous in my opinion


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Feb 2022)

John Brown said:


> I knew I'd seen that name before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is he still banging on about that lying, fad-diet-book-shilling quack?


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## D_W (3 Feb 2022)

John Brown said:


> I knew I'd seen that name before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All investment banks have thousands of VP - let's be realistic about what they do for most higher net worth clients - they try to make sure the client thinks they're prestigious and do whatever it takes for the client to figure out that they'd have a lot more money if they went elsewhere to have their assets trusteed. 

Not just investment banks. And it's apparently not well liked to say "who are the real VPs...like the C-suite people". 

Or when people talk about having a phD, saying "actually, I was looking for a real doctor, not a humanities phD".


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## Jameshow (3 Feb 2022)

D_W said:


> All investment banks have thousands of VP - let's be realistic about what they do for most higher net worth clients - they try to make sure the client thinks they're prestigious and do whatever it takes for the client to figure out that they'd have a lot more money if they went elsewhere to have their assets trusteed.
> 
> Not just investment banks. And it's apparently not well liked to say "who are the real VPs...like the C-suite people".
> 
> Or when people talk about having a phD, saying "actually, I was looking for a real doctor, not a humanities phD".


My sister is a director of a multinational toy company specialising in bricks... When she got her job she found out there are 4 levels of directors...


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## Doug B (3 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> Doug
> I was responding to your statement about Veganism representing 10% of the Worlds diet . Here is your statement .
> quote_*' *But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under *10% of vegans* so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem '_ I pass your comment straight back at you.!



I don’t know how you construed what I wrote as to be saying veganism represents 10% of the worlds diet. I was talking about the amount of overweight folks in each group 33% of meat eaters are over weight as opposed to only 10% of vegans being over weight.
When you consider vegans are cutting out all meat, fish & dairy their diet will be higher in carbohydrates yet less of them are fat so clearly a higher carbohydrate diet doesn’t automatically mean you’ll be over weight far from it, it’s about how much you eat.



johnny said:


> Quote ' _It’s estimated *22% of the worlds population is vegetarian*'_
> 
> Where did you read that 1/5th of the Worlds population are Vegetarian ?
> please show us your reference source .
> I am not trying to start an argument with you ...As an academic and a Type 2 Diabetic I have a genuine interest in all things related to diet and health.


Try Googling it, but here’s a start it’s estimated in India alone that over 40% of the population are vegetarian due to religious convictions, so that equates to nearly half a billion people around 1/16th or just over 6% of the worlds population & that’s just in one country.


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## kinverkid (3 Feb 2022)

Jameshow said:


> My sister is a director of a multinational toy company specialising in bricks... When she got her job she found out there are 4 levels of directors...


Did she have to go on a brick course?


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## John Brown (3 Feb 2022)

D_W said:


> All investment banks have thousands of VP - let's be realistic about what they do for most higher net worth clients - they try to make sure the client thinks they're prestigious and do whatever it takes for the client to figure out that they'd have a lot more money if they went elsewhere to have their assets trusteed.
> 
> Not just investment banks. And it's apparently not well liked to say "who are the real VPs...like the C-suite people".
> 
> Or when people talk about having a phD, saying "actually, I was looking for a real doctor, not a humanities phD".


 That's exactly the point I was making.
At JPM the next level up after VP was executive director.


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## John Brown (3 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> well as I have already said John unless you can show indisputable evidence of Zoe Harcombe not having been awarded a PhD.... I would suggest that you do not add fuel to the fire in ignorance.......
> 
> Nothing you or anyone else can say can take away her prodigeous Academic achievements and anyone attempting to belittle another persons academic achievements is nothing short of contemptuous in my opinion


I was merely posting a link to a piece by Ben Goldacre, in which he mentions that she claimed to be studying for a PHD, but was apparently not. It was a while ago. She may have more degrees than a hot thermometer by now, I neither know nor care.


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Feb 2022)

Let's be clear - Zoe Harcombe has been proven to have lied that she was studying for a PhD.





__





How to read a paper – Bad Science







www.badscience.net





Her main source of income is fad diet books.

She is not a respected nutritionist, she is a widely-derided quack and her advice should be disregarded, as should anyone relying on her as an authority on the subject.


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## Dave Moore (4 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> Zoe Harcombe does have a PHD which anyone can check that here .
> 
> To falsely accuse someone of lying is Libelous
> 
> ...


Zoe Harcombe was a major witness in South Africa for professor Tim Noakes when the dietetic society tried to destroy his career for promoting the Bantam diet(Ketogenic) diet to his patients. They lost the case twice as he had all the evidence to prove to worth. Dr Jason Fung promotes fasting which is proven to reduce weight and cure Type 2 diabetes.


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## Sporky McGuffin (4 Feb 2022)

Zoe Harcombe does indeed have a PhD (in public health nutrition) _now -_ I have never claimed otherwise. Prior to getting it, she had claimed - and this is well documented, and I have posted links several times - to have been studying for one, when she was not. She is a proven liar about her credentials. I will go back and add the citation to each of my posts where I have pointed this out.





__





Zoë Harcombe


Zoë Harcombe is an author, nutritionist and cholesterol denialist from Wales. Harcombe disagrees with mainstream medical advice on dieting. She has been criticized for promoting misleading health advice that is not based on scientific evidence.[2] She sells a fad diet known as the "Harcombe...




rationalwiki.org












Zoe Harcombe Credentials II


Low carb diets, uses & limitations; nutritional science; Gary Taubes critic; debunking LC & paleo / primal science; carbohydrate phobia; ELMM




carbsanity.blogspot.com





Here are some more critiques of her nutritional claims:





__





Is Zoe Harcombe’s advice based on solid scientific evidence? - World Cancer Research Fund


Zoe Harcombe's advice about obesity is not supported by scientific evidence and is at odds with credible sources of health information.




www.wcrf-uk.org





I'm going to leave it at this point - Johnny is getting even more personal and insulting than when I first challenged his nonsense (specifically his unfounded and patently ridiculous claim that it is impossible to get all the required nutrients on a vegetarian diet), and I'm happy that I've shown that his advice, and the authority he relies on, are daft. That he's now resorting to actual threats is pathetic and laughable, so I've stuck him on ignore and will bow out of the thread.

Good luck to all of you on your weight loss journeys; stay away from the fad diets and quacks and you've got a much better chance of reaching your goals.


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## D_W (4 Feb 2022)

It'd be super awesome if you guys didn't get a running diet thread locked up in a way that I open another one and it gets locked up, too. 

Think about the outcomes - if you're arguing with someone who thinks you aren't right, and the more you prove things, the more they think you're in the tank for something, what's the likelihood anything happens other than frustration?

It's pretty low. 

I've tested this theory too many times before realizing that I was testing it.


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## kinverkid (4 Feb 2022)

Now confident that I have my running mojo back. I'm now mixing it up with hills and towpaths on alternate days. The beer drinking has gone back down to pre-pandemic level. I entered some races the beginning of 2020 which I would normally do the start of each year. Two of them were cancelled for 2020 and 2021 but I'm automatically entered for both of them this year. The first is not until May and is a 10K so I'll be more than ready for that by then. Might find one to run before that. Weight loss is around three kilos so far so still quite a way to go.


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## Jameshow (4 Feb 2022)

D_W said:


> It'd be super awesome if you guys didn't get a running diet thread locked up in a way that I open another one and it gets locked up, too.
> 
> Think about the outcomes - if you're arguing with someone who thinks you aren't right, and the more you prove things, the more they think you're in the tank for something, what's the likelihood anything happens other than frustration?
> 
> ...


Agreed let's keep this to practical weight loss rather than ins and outs of academic diets / qualifications!


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## johnny (5 Feb 2022)

well hopefully this thread is now back on track with the initial topic of weight loss.

For me the challenge has always been my lifelong addiction to food, especially Carbs . I am blessed/cursed with a heightened sense of taste and smell and have always enjoyed my food immensely .

The first and most important step I have found is to be helpful in losing weight is to remove from the house any foodstuffs that are not real food ie refined, packaged,microwave foods which are always loaded with hidden sugars and contain little in the way of essential minerals and Vitamins I need..... 

If it isn't in the house then you can't be tempted to eat it


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## Doug B (5 Feb 2022)

As DW has asked to keep his thread on topic I’ll not continue down this seemingly pointless rabbit hole,


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## doctor Bob (5 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> I am blessed/cursed with a heightened sense of taste and smell and have always enjoyed my food immensely .



I'm the total opposite, take cheese for example, I think of cheese as red or yellow or soft, but it all tastes the same. I can but on weight but I really have to shift to total rubbish for a couple of months.


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## johnny (5 Feb 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> I'm the total opposite, take cheese for example, I think of cheese as red or yellow or soft, but it all tastes the same. I can but on weight but I really have to shift to total rubbish for a couple of months.


I can't imagine not being able to distinquish the taste and smell of different foods. My Stepson also has minimal taste and smell after falling off a horse during a race 20+ years ago and hitting his head . Apparently his sensitivity could return at any time ....

Looking on the bright side at least you cannot smell dog poo and Farmers muck spreading as keenly as many of the rest of us do


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## D_W (5 Feb 2022)

Doug B said:


> As DW has asked to keep his thread on topic I’ll not continue down this seemingly pointless rabbit hole,



I think it's actually an interesting topic, and would be even better if put in the controversial topic forum so you could have a more free discussion. but I don't want it to lock my thread and cause a follow-lock to any new thread i create to continue this one.


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## D_W (7 Feb 2022)

1 more pound again this week. Maybe that's more realistic than two pounds a week for such a lazy diet.


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## Sandyn (7 Feb 2022)

At the start of this thread you said you think you can lose weight without much exercise. Just my personal opinion, and you will know all this, but I think you should be starting to do a regular exercise routine, not to lose weight, but to lay the foundations for a healthier old age to make sure you are just about half way through your life and not 3/4 through it. Someone else said that exercise is an inefficient way of losing weight, that may be so, but exercise is very very good for you for a host of other reasons. It's good for your heart, circulation, strengthens your joints and really good for your mindset. In all the years I have exercised, in all weather. There has never been a time where I came back feeling worse than when I went out. Excluding picking up injuries, but I am a bit extreme in how I push myself. 
I know I am lucky and have thin genes but a couple of years ago, I started putting on a bit of weight. the scale is different, but the fight is the same. I cut out alcohol completely and all the biscuits/snacks I was eating since retiring. That got my weight back to usual. 
Get some exercise technology on your self to track what you do, then see how you compare to others. Everyone who exercises can find the level of exercise that suits them. I cycle outdoors and use Strava, which records my all my rides. I can 'compete' against others on segments. It is a huge motivation for me to see how I compare to others of all ages. I don't take it too seriously, but it's great fun.
40lbs by June. You will do that easily just by cutting out the junk, but keep posting your progress (weekly weight loss and total since start) on here for everyone to see. That will put pressure on you to keep it up. Take advantage of the new slim self with more exercise. Good luck!!


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## D_W (7 Feb 2022)

At this point, trading "making" time in the shop for an exercise routine isn't something I'll do, but I have started to do bodyweight exercises and light resistance with dumbbells. When I was younger, I did a fair amount of gym time - not excessive, but 3-4 times a week and a 45 minute circuit of freeweights - high weight, low repetition. 

I think folks who like to exercise, it's a good complement, but for me (when I was younger and biking a lot, and before that, spending time in the gym with resistance exercise), it wasn't to lose weight (though I didn't gain any, either) - it was because I liked to do it. As I get older, an increase of 1 calorie of exercise seems to come with 2 of appetite. 

The 1 pound a week instead of 2 is just due to not being that strict on the diet (as in, there are things that I could eliminate that I've cut back on instead). I'm on the fence about it. a kilo a week instead of a pound is more like 1000 calorie in deficit per day. If you add moderate or heavy exercise, that's a hard deficit to live with and not be zonked (I haven't felt tired or hungry other than passing hunger here or there). 

when summer comes around again, I'll probably add more exercise, but not as a rule (just because there will be more opportunity for it). The flexibility and not yet giving up on the strength of not-past youth is something I don't want to leave behind, though - I gather it's not hard to prevent loss of flexbility, but not that easy to get it back if you allow it to happen.


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## D_W (7 Feb 2022)

(I view the studies with interest when they talk about exercise, though - everyone wants black and white. For me, exercise works better for maintaining a weight - the appetite increase is ridiculous after the suppressant period wears off. But that's not the case for everyone, and I'm sure for some, it's a benefit - even if it's just an investment that you make that discourages bad eating so as not to 'waste' the exercise effort). 

But it's never been very effective by itself in terms of effort in size reduction (diet can be very effective without exercise) and for years was pushed as the way to get fit and lose weight. 









Does exercise help you lose weight?


Your first instinct may be to work out to lose weight. Learn why this may not produce the results you want and what’s effective.




www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org













Why You Shouldn't Exercise to Lose Weight


If you're aiming to lose weight, exercise isn't really going to help you




time.com





(some of the less objective stories try to make claims that it's not associated with weight loss at all, which is a strange thing - the medical and quasi medical articles seem to swing around all over the place. 30 years ago when I was younger "sweating it out" was the only way to go with articles about "burning like a fireplace" and the promise of calories burned while sitting due to a much higher metabolism "as much or more than those burned while exercising").


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## Jameshow (7 Feb 2022)

kinverkid said:


> Now confident that I have my running mojo back. I'm now mixing it up with hills and towpaths on alternate days. The beer drinking has gone back down to pre-pandemic level. I entered some races the beginning of 2020 which I would normally do the start of each year. Two of them were cancelled for 2020 and 2021 but I'm automatically entered for both of them this year. The first is not until May and is a 10K so I'll be more than ready for that by then. Might find one to run before that. Weight loss is around three kilos so far so still quite a way to go.


Did a 19.45 pb for 5k! 2 sec faster than 5 years ago... 

Flater course though!!


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## D_W (7 Feb 2022)

I'll bet I could triple that time!


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## kinverkid (7 Feb 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Did a 19.45 pb for 5k! 2 sec faster than 5 years ago...
> 
> Flater course though!!


That's impressive. I've never done that at my best.


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## kinverkid (12 Feb 2022)




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## D_W (14 Feb 2022)

-1.5 pounds last week. Still slow and steady and the habits are not feeling like a diet at this point and my tastes have at least temporarily changed (seeking healthier food as a matter of habit rather than obligation). 

Developing a moderate case of plumber's disease, though.


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## kinverkid (14 Feb 2022)

Same here. It's now at a respectful loss rate. I've been laying a floor and now have a knee injury that is hindering rather than stopping me running. Still got the beer down to a pre-weight-gain level only having a couple of Belgian beers while visiting Worcester Saturday my first for almost two weeks.


D_W said:


> -1.5 pounds last week. Still slow and steady and the habits are not feeling like a diet at this point and my tastes have at least temporarily changed (seeking healthier food as a matter of habit rather than obligation).
> 
> Developing a moderate case of plumber's disease, though.


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## D_W (14 Feb 2022)

I had a discussion with someone - wait, it was raffo - about not wanting to rely on exercise to lose weight. If it's added on later, that's fine (or in flexibility exercises now, that's fine), but it's nice to be able to lose weight comfortably. 

When I was younger and lived near a park (probably said this already), I would bike and run a lot. I'd get a bit anxious when I'd have knee or shin problems from too much running (never had anything that prevented biking, I guess) - and my eating just matched the exercise and I didn't lose weight. Something has change as I've gotten older, though, and I don't have a jones for the junk food - previously, that would start to make a comeback around a month. 

That said, I know there are other people who consume less once they're exercising - I'm just not one of them - it causes ravenous hunger. though it does provide a way to run off frustrations. 

Starting at about 55 pounds over, though, I don't want to exercise and get banged up (I would get banged up at 160 pounds). Exercise makes me impatient to see results, too. Doing nothing doesn't so much.


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## kinverkid (14 Feb 2022)

Really I'm relying on the lack of beer drinking. My food diet is fine, always has been healthy and balanced. I just want to get back to being able to run as regularly as I did before I started to lose interest during 2020 and completely stopping in September 2021. I won't rely on the running to lose the weight, it will go anyway. But, this mornings run was a few hundred calories burned and tomorrows run will be a few hundred more. It can't hurt diet or health wise but the main thing for me is it will get me back to doing something I know I enjoy and once I'm back to my normal weight those hills won't be such a struggle.


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## D_W (14 Feb 2022)

I like your thought pattern - it's a lot like mine. There's a minor change to be made and that's enough to make the difference, so it's fine to get on with it rather than trying to crack the earth with a gimmick that will make you feel terrible and that you can't keep up (same with me, I can lose weight faster - I've done it a bunch of times), but it's 10-15 off in a month and then a year later, they're back (thankfully, they come off that fast and back on that fast and not the other way around!!)


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## Jameshow (14 Feb 2022)

D_W said:


> I had a discussion with someone - wait, it was raffo - about not wanting to rely on exercise to lose weight. If it's added on later, that's fine (or in flexibility exercises now, that's fine), but it's nice to be able to lose weight comfortably.
> 
> When I was younger and lived near a park (probably said this already), I would bike and run a lot. I'd get a bit anxious when I'd have knee or shin problems from too much running (never had anything that prevented biking, I guess) - and my eating just matched the exercise and I didn't lose weight. Something has change as I've gotten older, though, and I don't have a jones for the junk food - previously, that would start to make a comeback around a month.
> 
> ...


I know that feeling of being ravenous!! 

I decided to eat just two small slices of raisin bread only to find myself eating chocolate this morning!


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## johnny (19 Feb 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Already done.
> 
> You've claimed that it's impossible to get every required nutrient in a , vegetarian diet *which is obvious bunkum**.*
> Y



I challenge you to show us all the evidence to support your claim .....
if you cannot then I respectfully suggest that you retract your inflammatory statement with an apology 

I stand by everything I have said and can post the published peer reviewed Meta Analysis and scientific and medical research papers to support my statement .


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## jcassidy (19 Feb 2022)

Well I'm late to the party, but just back from our first foreign holiday since 2019 (unless you count Co. Kerry) and is a good time to get going.

Currently 81.5kg (175lb) which is as heavy as I've ever been. I'm gonna track my waistline more than my weight, currently 102cm (40"), height 176cm (5'7").

My major malfunction is a sugar addiction and going from a solid 13 hours of intensive exercise every week, to basically zero. Self defence classes have started up again so I need to get back into shape. So I'm gonna focus on cutting sugar, hitting the gym, and training.

At my fittest, age 30, I weighed 10 stone (63kg, 139lbs) with 6% body fat. I suppose that's out or reach now that I'm 46! My goal is to get the waistline down and knock out the class warmup without being visibly piffed at the end!!


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## D_W (21 Feb 2022)

I was a bad boy this week and came up with a zero. 

Rather than get all fluffed up about it an frustrated, though, I will make up for it this week with strict eating rather than mildly relaxed. 

No junk food of any kind and no unnecessary carb snacks or dry carbs. 

(we had a couple of social things and one of them was a large diner with mucho drinking). Interestingly, though a zero is not a good week, it's not a regular occurrence and this is the kind of thing where I would've eaten unlimited in the past. It's not like I showed great discretion, but everything is bumped down a notch, so I didn't overindulge like I would've in the past (the lack of losing what's become the standard pound could very well just be "in the poo yet", for lack of a better way to put it). 

we'll see. strict is fine for a week, but past trials suggest I won't stick to it even if I have good intentions, so unless next week pegs another zero, it's only strict for a week and then back to normal. At the outset, I wanted to lose 55 or 60 pounds in 6 months, but I'm realizing at this point I want to stay on the negative weight trend no matter if it's slow or not so as not to ever go back to my "pre age 45" mentality that I can go for periods with zero discretion with food.


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## kinverkid (21 Feb 2022)

D_W said:


> I was a bad boy this week and came up with a zero.


On the plus side. You socialised, ate and drank and didn't put any weight on.


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## D_W (21 Feb 2022)

kinverkid said:


> On the plus side. You socialised, ate and drank and didn't put any weight on.



That's sort of the hidden benefit of a change in behavior, I guess. I'd have gorged on the dinner plus the leftovers. I still overate, but the "over" was smaller and there's some room in the diet to make up for it this week without starving (no work dinners or social dinners, etc, planned vs. the two last week).


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## D_W (22 Feb 2022)

One strange thought and then I'll go to reporting weight monthly. 

So, yesterday, I ate nothing that isn't healthy and no dry carbs. It wasn't that hard to get through the day, except expelling water everywhere knowing that I was going to drop a few pounds by this morning. 

I didn't forgo eating anything, there was just less incentive with no dry carbs. Even so, it's too drastic. 

This morning, I woke up 3 1/2 pounds lighter (I've been down this road before - it's a one-day reaction to not having a bunch of grainy carbs or refined sugar in the system). Today, I'm exhausted. 

At the outset, a kilo a week seemed a nice rate, because it would get me to my goal in 6 months. I've pretty much halved that and having read around, I guess have come to the conclusion that maybe a kilo a week isn't a healthy rate in the first place. a pound a week is easy. I feel the same. but I have to eat some junk to not lose weight faster than that, and no amount of potatoes, bananas, grapes, other fruit, beef, carrots, berries, protein shakes with extra PB protein added...will be enough not to shed weight too fast and feel terrible. 

So, I'll report monthly as I think it's a little more reasonable to target 5 pounds a month and not go too fast and fall off the wagon later. The "strict week" will just be no refined sugar and no unneeded refined dry carbs as snacks (but bread, etc, fine with meals). 

I don't know how people who eat only healthy foods manage to keep weight on.


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## kinverkid (13 Mar 2022)

My update. I'm down around 4.5 kilos/10ish lbs. Just back from a 8km run which is my first since Monday due to pulling a muscle in my upper back moving wood about. So it has slowed down but is still going in the right direction. The beer is still at a respectable pre 2020 level and as I said before I don't need to change my food diet. A couple of local 10K races are booked which helps keep me focused and I'll look for some Snicks to do later in the summer.


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## Jameshow (13 Mar 2022)

kinverkid said:


> My update. I'm down around 4.5 kilos/10ish lbs. Just back from a 8km run which is my first since Monday due to pulling a muscle in my upper back moving wood about. So it has slowed down but is still going in the right direction. The beer is still at a respectable pre 2020 level and as I said before I don't need to change my food diet. A couple of local 10K races are booked which helps keep me focused and I'll look for some Snicks to do later in the summer.


Well done!
I've reduced my 5k pb to 19.25 would like to do below 19 soon!

Need to book up some longer races in....


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## kinverkid (13 Mar 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Well done!
> I've reduced my 5k pb to 19.25 would like to do below 19 soon!
> 
> Need to book up some longer races in....


I just had a look through my old logs (running). I was in my mid fifties when I last ran a sub 30 minute hilly 5K on a training day. I don't think I ever ran a sub 20 though.


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## D_W (14 Mar 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Well done!
> I've reduced my 5k pb to 19.25 would like to do below 19 soon!
> 
> Need to book up some longer races in....



That's a sizzling time for an amateur runner. Friend's dad used to tell us that running and triathlons were the sports of old white wealthy men. (He was all of those...addicted marathoner.) I'm not actually sure what his point was, I guess just noting the lack of amateur diversity in what he thought would've been good for everyone.


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