# Why use cascamite?



## Monkey Mark (9 Nov 2015)

This may be a really silly question, sorry.  

I've seen cascamite referred to quite a few times on here. As a newbie I've never come across this. Can anyone tell me what the advantages are over the likes of Titebond? Or is it more a case of it being used for a different purpose/result?

Assuming you mix up just what is needed for your particular job, is it easy enough to mix? How much does a tub usually make up? Any recommended brands?

Thanks in advance from someone eager to learn.


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## mseries (9 Nov 2015)

I have never used Titebond so can't compare it. Cascamite is water resistant, we used to use it for model boat building back in the 80s. I was recommended it for laminating to minimise spring back recently and it worked well. I now have rather a lot left so will use it on my current project. Easy to mix, just get the proportions right, mix the powder with water.

EDIT: I use the brand that Axminster have though I got mine from the local indy DIY shop (via eBay, I did BIN then arranged to collect it in their shop having paid using Paypal. I don't know if they stock it normally, suspect they do, at least they'd order it in I'm sure)


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## AJB Temple (9 Nov 2015)

Cascamite resin is very good for complicated assembly that needs a lot of adjustment, as you usually have a good hour or so for adjustment. You can also mix it with saw dust and colour it if necessary to do a bit of gap filling...As it is a powder, mixed as needed, it is economical in use. Waterproof for outdoor joinery. cI have used it to laminate a dagger board for a dinghy used in the sea - this was years ago and it is still fine. And it is cheap and readily available. What's not to like (in the right circumstances). 

Don't buy big tubs unless you plan to use a lot soon, as I believe it goes off over time after the tub is opened.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Nov 2015)

Cascamite (Resintite, other trade names) is a useful addition to the usual PVA as it is waterproof and has a much longer open time for complex glue ups. It lasts quite well so long as kept air tight. An upside is that it doesn't creep (for laminations and postblocking), a downside is that it tends to crumble if kept very dry as in centrally heated houses - e.g. if used in stressed joints such as a chair.


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## scholar (9 Nov 2015)

As said above, the great advantage is that the open time is so much longer than any other glue I have used, so I favour Cascamite for any large glue up. 

Use (the wife's) digital kitchen scales to measure precisely by weight two parts powder to one part water helps to add a gram or two of water as you always lose a bit in transferring between vessels. Transfer 2/3rds of the water to a clean pot/tub and stir in all of the powder until the lumps are dispersed - then add the remaining water and stir to a nice creamy consistency - leave for a minute or two to settle then stir to ensure no lumps. You can apply the glue with a stiff old paint brush.

If you buy in bulk, it will keep for a reasonable time so long as you keep it sealed - I buy a 20[?]KG bag and transfer some into a sealed storage tub for use, then immediately reseal the bag - that way its exposure to the atmosphere (ie humidity) is very brief.

I tried using some PVA D3 from AirPress recently, when I bought my AirPress kit - the kit is great, but I really did not like the PVA - it did not allow enough open time and was very hard to spread. I reverted to Cascamite for the next laminating job which was much better to use.

For smaller jobs still requiring a bit of adjustment time, I favour Titebond III; for sundry everyday interior glue ups, I usually use Titebond I.

Horses for courses.

Hope that helps

Cheers


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Nov 2015)

You can use an acid hardener which will set it in minutes.


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## CHJ (9 Nov 2015)

I use it for laminations/segments prior to turning.

Reasons as mentioned above.

1. It does not creep at joints as even the reduced creep PVA's do.
2. Has reasonable working life unless in very hot locations.
3. Easy to mix. *

Downside, plays havoc with cutting edges so keep excess squeeze-out to a minimum if machining assembly.


* I mix by volume for my small mixes, using a spoon (3-1/2 to 1 with water) so to make it easier 7 level spoons of powder to 2 spoons of water.

I decant tubs into smaller sealed jars as soon as opened to reduce air moisture exposure, some folks seal pre-measured amounts in plastic bags.


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## Newbie_Neil (9 Nov 2015)

CHJ":1bbw4hru said:


> I decant tubs into smaller sealed jars as soon as opened to reduce air moisture exposure.



+1


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## custard (9 Nov 2015)

Cascamite (or indeed any other UF glue) has three main advantages,

1. Very waterproof
2. Long open time for laminations or complex glue ups. In fact the industrial UF glues have a range of different hardeners so you can adjust the open time still further, plus you can add other additives to perform specific functions like reducing bleed through on veneers.
3. Gap filling. The gap filling properties of Cascamite are mid way between PVA and epoxy, but if your mortices are a bit loose then it delivers all the gap filling qualities you'll ever need!

Like most things in life it also has some disadvantages,

1. The glue lines, especially with paler timbers, aren't quite as discreet as with PVA. 99.99% of the population would never notice, but if you're aiming for a Guild Mark then it's relevant.
2. It's a bit more of a faff to mix up.
3. It dries glass hard, so unless you clean up any squeeze out before it sets then it's a right old struggle to get rid of it. This is more of an issue when you need complex clamping blocks that deny access to the joint, for normal work I find UF glues like Cascamite are actually _easier_ to clean up than PVA because you've got loads of time to deal with it. Two or three vigorous scrubs with hot water and an old toothbrush will _totally_ remove UF squeeze out, where as with PVA it's often well on the way to curing before I've finished adjusting cramps etc, so it no longer dissolves as readily in hot water and often leaves an annoying smudge that doesn't reveal itself until the first coat of finish has gone on!

On balance I think Cascamite has a huge amount to offer the woodworker, and I'm surprised it isn't much more widely used by hobbyists who aren't under professional time pressures and would really benefit form the specific advantages that Cascamite offers.


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## Monkey Mark (9 Nov 2015)

Thanks everyoneeveryone. You have all made some very good points, enough so that I'll be purchasing some soon I think. 

Any recommendations on brands to go for/avoid?


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## RobinBHM (9 Nov 2015)

Ones of its biggest benefits for cabinetmaking is how easily it can be cleaned off as mentioned by custard. PVA, great as it is, can leave invisible patches that appear as horrible white marks during finishing.

Also excellent for veneering and laminates in a press, used a lot commercially for this, usually uf with resin.

UF is temperature dependant so curing at 70 degrees in a heated press can be just a few minutes.

Im not so keen on UF for joinery gluing, it sets hard like glass so wont move with the timber.

Brands? Cascamite, extramite, polymite are all the same, different names, I dont know what the current name for it is! Probably the only brands you will get retail. I doubt if there are many manufacturers of uf. Bordens used to have technical info on their site.


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## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2015)

I still think Polyvine Cascamite is the best or for a long cure time Borden UPX7

http://www.polyvine.com/index.php?optio ... 84&lang=en

http://www.hallmarkfraulo.co.uk/product ... n_adhesive

We still use Cascamite within our workshops, gluing up laminates today with it and using UF powder/resin mix this morning for veneer work.

Cheers Peter


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## custard (9 Nov 2015)

I forgot another important advantage of Cascamite and other UF glues, they're not "grabby" like Titebond and other PVA glues.

I suspect PVA glues are _pressure sensitive_, and if you apply too much pressure they'll grab or set even though they're still within their theoretical open time. To give a practical example, imagine you're gluing up a set of table legs and apron rails with PVA, the joints are mortice and tenons (or Dominos), but some are a bit on the tight side. You tap them partially home and then move over to the other side to locate the tenons in the mortices before getting the sash clamps on to draw the joints up tight. There's bit of a delay sorting out the sash cramps so by the time you come to screw them tight the first set of M&T's has been sat there for ten minutes, not quite closed up. They were tight to begin with and adding glue has made the tenons swell a bit more, so even though there's been no clamping pressure there has still been a lot of pressure between the tenon cheeks and the mortice walls. You tighten the sash clamps...but the joint refuses to close up, so you're left with an unsightly 1mm gap between the leg and the apron rail. This problem wouldn't occur with Cascamite, even after twenty or thirty minutes sorting out the sash clamps and adjusting them for square you can still tighten them down and close up the joints.


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## xy mosian (9 Nov 2015)

I recently used Cascamite, and cleaned up as suggested by custard, above. If you use an old bristle toothbrush you will lose it, however a Nylon, or other plastic, bristle brush will clean under hot water.
I have also used Cascamite to glue up a laminated birch ply canoe, with Formic acid as hardener. It works very well. Go and milk a few Ants. On second thoughts the adhesive was not Cascamite it was Aerolite 306, virtually the same stuff.

On the air tight container. Just providing an air tight container will only partially work as the adhesive will absorb any moisture in whatever air is in there with it. This of course is re moisturised every time the lid is taken off. Better in a plastic bag where the air can be squeezed out before sealing.
xy


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## rafezetter (10 Nov 2015)

xy mosian":zj1q4z8g said:


> On the air tight container. Just providing an air tight container will only partially work as the adhesive will absorb any moisture in whatever air is in there with it. This of course is re moisturised every time the lid is taken off. Better in a plastic bag where the air can be squeezed out before sealing.
> xy



I have decanted mine into baby food jars, and put those jars into a sealable tub with wood shavings and the freebie silica gel drier packets you get in new shoes, both dried indoors beforehand ofc.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Nov 2015)

Xy - the hardener for Cascamite is phosphoric acid iirc. although I tried interchanging formic and phosphoric and they both worked (obviously stress tests etc. might say differently).


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## xy mosian (10 Nov 2015)

phil.p":2595l6no said:


> Xy - the hardener for Cascamite is phosphoric acid iirc. although I tried interchanging formic and phosphoric and they both worked (obviously stress tests etc. might say differently).


Phil,
Thanks for clearing that up. I hope I can find it, information and phosphoric acid, when I need it.

I tend to use Cascamite for its long handling time as much as strength. Glue-ups being late in the day for all night drying.
The canoe building I mentioned was a school project and remember the Aerolite was used for its waterproof nature.

Thanks again.

xy


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## Peter Sefton (10 Nov 2015)

K10 Hardener may be what you are looking for.

http://www.hallmarkfraulo.co.uk/assets/pdf/K10.pdf

We have it but rarely use it.

Cheers Peter


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## Phill joiner (10 Nov 2015)

I only use cascamite like others on large projects but have recently started to use polyurethane glue. Basically it cures in 15 minutes and is totally waterproof. You can even make it go off quicker by spraying fine water on the joint and it cures in about 5 minutes. It also foams up for incredible gap filling and is very good on the tooling. I'm finding that I'm using it more and more tbh. Defo worth a try.


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## CHJ (10 Nov 2015)

Phill joiner":1gq9uen6 said:


> ... but have recently started to use polyurethane glue. Basically it cures in 15 minutes and is totally waterproof. You can even make it go off quicker by spraying fine water on the joint and it cures in about 5 minutes. It also foams up for incredible gap filling and is very good on the tooling.....


 Diving off topic a bit but I'm curious, does the foaming gap filling have any bond and support strength?


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## Paddy Roxburgh (10 Nov 2015)

Be careful with the idea that PU glue is good for gap filling. Sure the foam fills the gap but not with any strength. Check out https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/gorilla_glue.html
Paddy


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## custard (10 Nov 2015)

Phill joiner":2enfuqrc said:


> It also foams up for incredible gap filling



PU glues have zero gap filling properties, you can prove this for yourself very easily, let some of the foam dry out and set on a piece of scrap, then see how much strength the dried foam has. The answer is absolutely none at all!

But this idea that PU glue is gap filling, is one of those myths that refuse to die. I guess people see the foam and just assume it'll foam up in a cavity and be incredibly strong, when it's actually like asking soap bubbles to be load bearing.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Nov 2015)

Sure, But for external joinery if a gap is full of expanded polyurethane, it can't be full of water as well.


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## Phill joiner (11 Nov 2015)

custard":7h08quu1 said:


> Phill joiner":7h08quu1 said:
> 
> 
> > It also foams up for incredible gap filling
> ...


It depends on the size of the gap. A one or two mm gap you wont pull apart. Anything bigger than that would have to be wood filled . The beauty of the foaming is that filler has something to grip to also.
I've been using it on all my segmented bowls and it works a treat. I can have a bowl cured and ready to turn in four hours.....That's cutting all the blocks as well.


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## custard (11 Nov 2015)

Phill joiner":n5sshiw1 said:


> custard":n5sshiw1 said:
> 
> 
> > Phill joiner":n5sshiw1 said:
> ...



Phill, I'm not having a go at you, but I am having a go at this idea that PU glue is gap filling. It isn't. However it still might be a good choice for segmented bowl turning because it delivers at least some end grain glue strength, not as much as UF glues like Cascamite, which in turn are not as good with end grain as epoxy, but way, way more than PVA which has zero end grain strength when used normally, and low end grain strength if the end grain is first sized with dilute PVA.

Here's a useful glue property summary chart from Marc Fish,

http://www.marcfish.co.uk/docs/F&C167P3 ... cutsah.pdf


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## dickm (11 Nov 2015)

phil.p":3mb9zdn4 said:


> Xy - the hardener for Cascamite is phosphoric acid iirc. although I tried interchanging formic and phosphoric and they both worked (obviously stress tests etc. might say differently).


Not clear why additional hardener would be needed. Isn't the hardener already incorporated into Cascamite, and activated (or at least brought into solution where it can work) when water is added? IIRC, the old CascoPHEN used a separate hardener. 
Seeking knowledge!


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Nov 2015)

Speed - it sets it in minutes.


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## dickm (11 Nov 2015)

Thanks, Phil. Must try it sometime. Just wish it was easier to get any UF adhesive up here!


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## iNewbie (11 Nov 2015)

dickm":3rvq8i66 said:



> Thanks, Phil. Must try it sometime. Just wish it was easier to get any UF adhesive up here!



There a retail locator page on their website:

http://www.polyvine.com/index.php?optio ... 15&lang=en


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## mindthatwhatouch (11 Nov 2015)

cascamite-semforite-supplier-t92701.html


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## jim_hanna (11 Nov 2015)

dickm":2o9iip1a said:


> Thanks, Phil. Must try it sometime. Just wish it was easier to get any UF adhesive up here!



I've just ordered some on ebay (item number 361014322145) with free delivery to my local Argos store. Might be an option if you have an Argos branch convenient.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Nov 2015)

I'm using Everbuild Resintite atm. Loads of builder's merchants sell Everbuild stuff - I've not found a bad product yet. Their epoxy is excellent.


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## kinverkid (3 Nov 2017)

One more use for Cascamite is as an MDF sealer. I was advised this a few years back but only just had a reason to use it this way. I agree that it is an excellent adhesive that I've used for many years. But, recently I made my own roller/thickness sander and made the 500mm roller from several 125mm x 18mm MDF disks glued together in sets of four (and a three). Once these were all sanded level on the spindle, I sealed them with Cascamite. I used just a tiny drop more water than normal to give me a slightly thinner mixture then coated the roller. Once dried I lightly sanded the roller then apply another but a final watery mix. With a light sand to remove any nibs I could then affix the hook side of a self-adhesive hook and loop strip before attaching the loop backed sandpaper. The sealed surface helps to stabilise the MDF and gives a good surface for the strip to adhere to.


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## Yojevol (3 Nov 2017)

Buy from www.restexpress.co.uk £12.95 + £3.95pp for 1.5Kg. Remember for storage over a lengthy period, water vapour can get through plastic so I put a tub of silica gel in with it.
I always use cascamite when making curved laminations as PVA will creep under stress.


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## MusicMan (4 Nov 2017)

Yes PVA is pressure sensitive as Custard says. 

As xy mosaic says, Aerolite 306 is very similar, and was used to glue Mosquito bombers together, so I don't think there'll be any problem with brittleness of the joints. The main difference is that Aerolite is certified for aircraft construction for wooden parts, the only adhesive that is, I believe.

Keith


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