# Machine Fart!



## jonny boy (16 Jul 2005)

Just taken back an EB BAS316 to machine mart due to top band wheel wobbling around like its had one too many, and the 15 mm blade wouldn't even fit on the machine due to hitting the blade guard and they tell me that they don't have the technical experience to tell if there is a problem with it so we can't authorise a refund. however when i walked into the store only 7 days previous with £350 in my hand they claimed to be the biggest tool experts in the business!


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## trevtheturner (17 Jul 2005)

Hi jonny boy,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum, and sorry to hear of your problem.

Your contract is with the supplier, nobody else. They cannot try to pass the buck onto anyone else, e.g. the manufacturer. As the machine was supplied 'not fit for purpose' you are entitled, under the Sale of Goods Act, to a full refund from your supplier. Whether they think they need authorisation from somebody else is irrelevant, and not so. There is a Statutory requirement for the supplier to refund you. This takes precedence over any so called 'warranty' that may have accompanied your saw. Take a look at it, if you have one - bet you that in the small print there will be something like: "this warranty does not affect your statutory rights", but it won't tell you what your rights are!

I would get straight back to your supplier and, if they don't offer you an immediate and full refund, just mention to them the Sale of Goods Act and your statutory entitlement.

Good luck.

If you are not familiar with it, suggest you do a search on 'Sale of Goods Act' - there is plenty of info. on it, and you never know whether it might come in handy.

Cheers,

Trev.


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## jonny boy (17 Jul 2005)

hello Trev, i appriciate your info and your spot on but they said that they are sending the machine to their own engineers to verify the problems with the saw and can't exactly say when the findings will be. i have looked into what my rights are but can't find out if the supplier is within there rights to delay the giving of a refund by going through this procedure. i believe that i will eventually get the refund but at the cost of having no machine, no money to buy a new one and no idea of when i can. cheers, jonny.


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## Losos (25 Jul 2005)

Jonny - This is really me guessing now but I would have thought that any retailer has the right to examine any returned goods to (a) see what the problem is (b) ascertain if it can be fixed to the customer staisfaction, & (c) then determine if a refund or repair is appropriate. At the end of the day you should (As Trev says) either get your money back or fully working machine. Problem is that so many retailers these days do not put a high priority on examining returned goods & probably don't have all that many engineers around who can do this properly. FWIW I would keep phoning them to make sure they get onto the inspection PDQ then both you & they will know the facts & decisons can be made.


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## jonny boy (26 Jul 2005)

Hi Losos,

Your right in what you say, the supplier does have the right to inspect the machine by their engineers. I agreed to this and thought that it was a fair and right thing to do. Their so called engineers have now looked at the machine and in their words it is a part that is adjustable. How someone is supposed to adjust a bent band wheel is beyond me and when I spoke to their engineer, he obviously had limited knowledge about the machine in question. The saw has now gone to elctra beckum for their assessment of it. I have had a look at other 316's and the top band wheel runs perfectly true on all of them so why should I be expected to pay £350 for one that doesn't. I consider myself to be a fair enough person and have never taken anything back to any shop. I will not be spending one more penny at machine mart and neither would I recommend their services to anyone else either.

cheers, jonny.


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## trevtheturner (26 Jul 2005)

jonny boy,

Machine Mart should have supplied you with goods 'fit for purpose' in exchange for your £350. For them now to introduce "assessment by E/B" is irrelevant and improper as far as their contract with you is concerned. If the defect is a part that 'is adjustable' then I would expect them to do just that. Why have to refer it elsewhere? In any case, that is their problem, not yours. The item supplied by *them *(not E/B) *to you *was clearly unfit.

Seems to me that this has gone on long enough for you and you are *entitled* - *it is your Statutory right *- to either a fit replacement or a full refund (your choice). I would be back to them now, firming up a bit, demanding my right and quoting the Sale of Goods Act. They won't want to start fighting your rights established by Act of Parliament. After all, you have given them a fair chance to rectify the situation, and what use/value are you getting from your £350 so far? Yep, I think I would by now be getting a bit fed up and I'd be taking a firm stance on this. Otherwise, it could go on for weeks, then getting a still duff machine back, only to have to start all over again with Machine Mart. The more I think about it, I feel I would demand a full refund now, accepting nothing less, and then buy elsewhere - the machine is readily available. And, after all, they could do the same to you again.

(Sorry to rant on a bit. I do get annoyed when firms see fit to treat their customers like this. But the advice stands good!).

Good luck with sorting the problem.

Cheers,

Trev.


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## jonny boy (27 Jul 2005)

Hello Trev,

Thank you for your words of support with reguards to my situation. Machine mart seem to have a way of suggesting that i'm the one who is in the wrong and on my first telephone conversation with their engineer, he thought that the reason for me returning the saw was that I had made a mistake in buying it and changed my mind so he reckoned.
The bottom line is that the machine does cut wood just like any other bandsaw and to someone who is not familiar with bandsaws it would look the same as the next one. However, when I got the machine home, I noticed that the saw was vibrating more than previous identical saws i have used. I opened te top cover and noticed the top wheel had a run out of around 5-6mm and was obviously not right. If I decide to pay a higher price for a mid size saw with supposedly higher specifications, I don't think i'm being unreasonable to expect them. Machine Mart on the other hand have said "well the saw works, so he must be wrong". If I bought a car and found the front wheel wobbling, I can still drive it down the road but it doesn't mean that it's running correctly does it?

cheers, Jonny.


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## Alf (27 Jul 2005)

jonny boy":37o5cld4 said:


> The bottom line is that the machine does cut wood just like any other bandsaw and to someone who is not familiar with bandsaws it would look the same as the next one. However, when I got the machine home, I noticed that the saw was vibrating more than previous identical saws i have used. I opened te top cover and noticed the top wheel had a run out of around 5-6mm and was obviously not right. If I decide to pay a higher price for a mid size saw with supposedly higher specifications, I don't think i'm being unreasonable to expect them. Machine Mart on the other hand have said "well the saw works, so he must be wrong".


Oh my, I'm getting horrible _deja vu_... Not an EB or Machine Mart either, and an even high spec B/S. Let fire with the Sale of Goods Act, Jonny. Just wish I had.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Gill (27 Jul 2005)

Jonny, no matter what Machine Mart or their engineers say you are legally entitled to either a replacement machine or a full refund. Go speak to your local Trading Standards Office or Citizen's Advice Bureau and get proper advice as to how to proceed.

Gill


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## woodshavings (27 Jul 2005)

Johnny, have a look at this .. it may help

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/you ... fullrefund

or the home page: www.adviceguide.org.uk and follow the menu for consumer problems.

HTH

John


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## Losos (27 Jul 2005)

Jonny - When you've taken advice as Gill suggests don't forget to write to the CEO - It should be possible to get his name from their web site. It's often not in the usual 'contacts' section, but if you go to 'Investor relations it should be there. The company secretary will definately be there and you could ring him to find out who the CEO is.


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## jonny boy (28 Jul 2005)

Hello,

Many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to offer their advice and help. The info from woodshavings has really assured me that I do have a right to a refund and don't have to accept anything else. The latest update on the situation is I spoke to the chief engineer (i think he is) from machine mart again today at 1.30pm, I called to ask if Electra Beckum had made an evaluation yet. On answering the phone he seemed to me to have just forgotton about the saw being sent to the manufacturers and said " oh, yes, i was expecting to here from them at the beggining of the week" I could tell that he'd not even bothered to find out or chase it up. It will be a month at the end of this week since I gave them my money and seen nothing for it, exept a load of phone costs and travelling to their store. I have decide to call back tommorow and ask for a final time to refund my money or the dispute will have to be reffered to trading standards. The thing that gets me the most though is the statements in their catalogues which read, "customers rely on machine mart not only for quality and value, but for the best after sales support in the business. friendly and well trained staff are always on hand to answer technical queries and solve your problems". Yeah right, and Norm can't stand woodwork either.

cheers, jonny.


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## jonny boy (3 Aug 2005)

HI,

After many requests for a refund with no luck I decided to phone E/B myself and find out what was going on. 
The so called technical fella at E/B reminded me of Machine Marts engineer and you would have had to listened to him to realise what I was up against. When I contacted trading standards they told me to ask for a new machine and not a refund as this would be a long road to go down with no guarantee of success. I have now got them to give me a credit note and had to pay £20 extra to order a scheppach Basato 3. I hope i've made the right decision. I will never go into another Machine Mart for as long as I live, The customer service is diabolical and all I wanted was my money back for a duff machine. The loss of one customer to an outfit the size of MM is niether here nor there, but I can tell the story to many other potential customers through marvelous forums like this one and I would just finally like to say,..............MACHINE MART DON'T CARE AFTER THEY'VE GOT YOUR MONEY SO DON'T GIVE IT TO THEM!

CHEERS,
JONNY.


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## PowerTool (3 Aug 2005)

Jonny - think you have been unfortunate.I have bought quite a lot of stuff from my local Machine Mart,tools have all been good,and staff have been helpful and knowledgable.Spares service has been good (although not very speedy) and the only time I've had to take anything back,it was an instant no-quibble replacement.

So they aren't all the same 8)


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## Anonymous (3 Aug 2005)

Jonny

you have clearly experienced poor service from one branch of machine mart., however, this does not make the whole company bad, nor the customer service in other brancehes. 
I have personally purchased loads form Machinemart and returned items when applicable, all without incident or problem.

One bad experience in one shop does not make the whole company bad


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## Alf (4 Aug 2005)

Ah, the reasonable arguments of folks who haven't had the runaround... You may be quite right, chaps, but I can well understand Jonny's reaction and sympathise with him. Better out than in. I don't know if you feel like taking it further, but maybe a letter to the MD detailing what happened might be in order, Jonny? Not that it'll necessarily help _you_, but if it is a problem with that particular branch it might be head office don't even know and you could improve the lot of the next poor victim. Depends; how public spirited d'you feel? :-k

Cheers, Alf


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## tim (4 Aug 2005)

I'm with Alf on this one. Maybe head office doesn't know about the bad apple and no one has complained because experience in other branches has been fine. 

IMO the only face of a business is the one in your local branch - if its bad, its a bad company. Why deal with one a hundred miles away because your local one sucks. If you can be bothered let the MD know and see what the repsonse is.

Cheers

Tim


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## Anonymous (4 Aug 2005)

Alf":1ufu9tmo said:


> Ah, the reasonable arguments of folks who haven't had the runaround... Cheers, Alf




While I don't know anything at all about Jonny's problems and my post is not aimed at him or his clearly awful experience, in my experience this is all about the way you approach the supplier.

Do you shout and aggressively complain? "this bloody tool you sold me is rubbish!!" (I have stood next to pratts taking this course of action in the past :roll: )....

or simply and politely state the problem and the corrective action you would like to see?



For instance, I recently posted about my straight edge from Axminster
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5970&highlight=straight

I sent off this email to Axminster last week: 



> Hi
> 
> I purchased a “1000SE Straight edge” from Axminster a while back and from the start was concerned that it was anything other than straight. I have had major concerns about it since purchase but until recently could not verify them.
> 
> ...



This is the response I received from Axminster the very next day:



> Thank you for your enquiry, concerning the straight edge. I notice from our records that the purchase was made some 18 months ago and technically the warranty/ guarantee is out of date. However as a valued customer we would be willing to credit you with the cost of the item if you send the straight edge back to us. I would expect that the item is barely used therefore we should, after checking, be able to accommodate you in this instance. I hope this helps in some way and if you would, could you address the goods for my attention. Kind Regards xxxxxxxx APTCM



Now, that is customer service  18 months after purchase too!! 

The edge is posted and credit heading my way :wink:


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## Alf (4 Aug 2005)

Tony":33o14uof said:


> in my experience this is all about the way you approach the supplier.


Alas, my experience suggests it's all about the luck of the draw as to who you get at the other end... 

Cheers, Alf


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## Gill (4 Aug 2005)

I'm with Tony. Your approach to someone will certainly govern their reaction to you. That's how Derren Brown makes a living. Although he can achieve outstanding results by writing or telephone, for most of us it's much easier if we can deal with an individual in person. If you can establish a rapport with the person you're talking to, it's amazing what they'll often do for you.

Gill


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## jonny boy (4 Aug 2005)

I had been buying from Machine Mart since I was 16 years old, I had never in all that time had to take anything back for any reason. My gripe is not with the branch I visited but the whole way that the company and it's service and warranty managers dealt with the whole experience. And to top it all off, they phoned me this morning to say that they want another £20 for the sheppach stand! The lad in the store who phoned could tell that I was not happy and agreed to include the stand for the £380+ it had already cost me. I can only give details on my experience and if any one else had the hastle that i've recently gone through I'm sure they would feel the same.
After all, it's certainly not me that's come up smelling of roses, over a month after paying £350, i've still got no machine, never had the use of a machine and paid another £29.30 for my trouble. Peole who enjoy woodworking go through a long term process of building up the tooling and machinery they need and machine mart should know this and act accordinly, not discourage them from future purchases.

cheers,
jonny.


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## Chris Knight (4 Aug 2005)

In my experience, a typewritten letter to the company chairman and a copy to the MD or CEO is the way to get this sort of thing dealt with. As long as you are factual and restrict the emotional content to being very disappointed, I have found it always works.

Sure, they pass the letter to someone else and sometimes you have to send a reminder but they get it dealt with because it's telling them something they need to know (and don't want to hear more of), about their business and they generally ensure an appropriate person fixes the problem.

Don't use email and by all means use registered post.


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## tim (4 Aug 2005)

Chris":28okx101 said:


> Don't use email and by all means use registered post.



And if you are really narked find out their home address and send it there. I've only done it once for a major insurance problem. Problem solved within 48 hours plus no premium to pay for the following year. I heard that there was all manner of a**e kicking at head office!

Cheers

Tim


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## jonny boy (5 Aug 2005)

Hello all,

At last, I have a bandsaw! the Basato3 was collected by me today to replace the blue thing and guess what, faulty machine! however don't worry, a minor problem that a quick call to NMA agencies where it origionated got me a chat to a REAL engineer who apart from sorting the problem with me over the phone, turned out to be a real joker and we had a good chat. So see, I do have the respect for good service and help.
A few people seem to have the impression that I went at Machine Mart like a bull in a china shop and this was certainly not the case. I also believe that if I had not taken the advice from a lot of members and pushed the issue with Machine Mart, I would still be stuck with a duff 316. I do feel a little sorry for the poor lad managing the store as he probably bore the brunt of the trouble that was totally down to managers higher up and their warranty dept. My last word on this whole sorry story would be "stand up for your rights and don't let em grind you down".

cheers,
jonny.


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