# Have a look at this Jacob!



## mark w

http://www.benchcrafted.com/Drawsharp.htm I bet you are speechless Jacob, I was!


----------



## bugbear

mark w":10919kqc said:


> http://www.benchcrafted.com/Drawsharp.htm I bet you are speechless Jacob, I was!



It's beautifully made...  

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

Brilliant!
So ordinary sharpening is "skill-intensive and somewhat dangerous"? Surely actually using the draw knife is going to be even more "skill intensive" than sharpening, as with woodwork in general, whatever "skill intensive" means!
To get people to buy this sort of garbage (and jigs in general) you have to put them off early, before they discover that it's all lies and quite easy.


----------



## Cottonwood

=D> 
How ever did the colonial pioneers and the subsequent generations of American furniture makers _ever_ manage without this kit? 

Jacob is right, its all lies. The industry trend is to keep pushing the notion that sharpening is _hard_ to do, ergo you need to consider purchasing these gizmo's we sudgest, to make things _easy_ for yourself.....
Its a sad trend with the american chairmaking (apart from just about every chair looks exactly the same from each and every maker) they seem to be adopting more and more the high precision gizmo cabinet maker mentality, which means the chairs are really quite bland and increasingly characterless....


----------



## AndyT

Not only is it unnecessary, it risks spoiling the whole back to basics appeal of using a drawknife!

(I also noticed that anyone with an old knife would need the optional extra 'rehab kit' 
- I wonder if it would help cure an addiction to buying over-engineered gadgets?)


Bring back the strickle!


----------



## Sgian Dubh

A waste of $84, plus presumably P&P. I do have a lot of sympathy with Jacob regarding the 'severe difficulties' and 'extreme challenge' of sharpening across pretty much the full range of tools. I generally keep clear of the sharpening debates, but sharpening really is a basic and simple task that any self respecting woodworker can manage with no more than essential aids, i.e., a bench stone, slip or similar, and maybe a strop, all depending on the tool being sharpened. A grindstone is handy too for rough shaping, but that's all that's really needed. 

There really is no useful purpose that I can see for about 97% (plus) of all the aids and gizmos out there that a bit of freehand practice wouldn't make redundant. Even intermittent or occasional woodworkers (in my teaching experience) mostly can master the basics of sharpening if they put their mind to it, although I'm aware that a limited few are just too intimidated- probably by the flood of 'information' on the subject via a range of media outlets- to actually believe they can sharpen tools satisfactorily. Slainte.


----------



## Jacob

AndyT":2519vjoe said:


> Not only is it unnecessary, it risks spoiling the whole back to basics appeal of using a drawknife!
> 
> (I also noticed that anyone with an old knife would need the optional extra 'rehab kit'
> - I wonder if it would help cure an addiction to buying over-engineered gadgets?)
> 
> 
> Bring back the strickle!


Wossa strickle? I want one!


----------



## MIGNAL

Somewhere, out there, is a honing guide collector who is going to absolutely love that bit of kit.


----------



## AndyT

Jacob":1stg8bkt said:


> AndyT":1stg8bkt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only is it unnecessary, it risks spoiling the whole back to basics appeal of using a drawknife!
> 
> (I also noticed that anyone with an old knife would need the optional extra 'rehab kit'
> - I wonder if it would help cure an addiction to buying over-engineered gadgets?)
> 
> 
> Bring back the strickle!
> 
> 
> 
> Wossa strickle? I want one!
Click to expand...


It's a sharpening stick. 
About a foot long or a bit more, tapered and with four facets. You smear some tallow on it, then dip it in sharp sand and rub it along your billhook, scythe or sickle until it's got a nice sharp edge. 

No guides, Velcro or special accessories required!


----------



## CStanford

I assume this thing was designed by Peter Galbert, the chairmaker. Seems a little incongruent, to say the least. I do know that he uses a drawknife a lot.

Here's his website:

http://www.petergalbertchairmaker.com/index.html


----------



## bugbear

AndyT":2t88vpe0 said:


> It's a sharpening stick.
> About a foot long or a bit more, tapered and with four facets. You smear some tallow on it, then dip it in sharp sand and rub it along your billhook, scythe or sickle until it's got a nice sharp edge.



I was reading (as you do) about sharpening techniques used in Holland. Holland has almost no rocks, it's all sediments.

So the Dutch are absolute masters of various strickle and strop etc techniques, and are expert in the abrasive properties of the various sands...

BugBear


----------



## bugbear

MIGNAL":39n7578z said:


> Somewhere, out there, is a honing guide collector who is going to absolutely love that bit of kit.



I do sort of collect honing guides, but a lot of the modern ones are expensive enough that my collection will never be anywhere near complete.

There have been a remarkable number of interesting and curious designs over the years, a bit like nut crackers and saw sets; the topic seems to attract the ingenious.

BugBear


----------



## MIGNAL

:shock: :shock: :shock: I just knew it!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Someone will help you. Have you tried therapy? My names Bugbear and I collect. . .ermm. . . honing guides.


----------



## bugbear

MIGNAL":37h7b7mb said:


> :shock: :shock: :shock: I just knew it!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
> Someone will help you. Have you tried therapy? My names Bugbear and I collect. . .ermm. . . honing guides.



I collect far more things than just honing guides... tool catalogues, for one.

BugBear


----------



## Cottonwood

Of course this is just the tip of the ice berg, the thin end of the wedge.
next it'll be 
scorpsharp
axesharp
travisharp
wedgiesharp (are your cheeks correctly aligned) :lol: 
(one for every tool...?)
Order early to avoid disapointment :roll: 
looksharp (sorry couldnt resist that one) (hammer)


----------



## Graham Orm

Worth every penny! If it had a light or a laser on it I'd get one. I have a full set of these in 12 different sizes. http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... aws+jp1444


----------



## Sheffield Tony

AndyT":u3ctqbqx said:


> Not only is it unnecessary, it risks spoiling the whole back to basics appeal of using a drawknife!
> !



Absolutely. And (just to really stir the hornets' nest) if there is one tool on which I actually like a slightly rounded bevel, it is the drawknife ... (runs for cover :lol: )


----------



## AndyT

Grayorm":abhr3sb9 said:


> Worth every penny! If it had a light or a laser on it I'd get one. I have a full set of these in 12 different sizes. http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... aws+jp1444



Good grief. That seems to be a real item, offered for sale. Please tell me it's out of stock till 1 April...


----------



## Graham Orm

AndyT":239lz8zh said:


> Grayorm":239lz8zh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Worth every penny! If it had a light or a laser on it I'd get one. I have a full set of these in 12 different sizes. http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... aws+jp1444
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief. That seems to be a real item, offered for sale. Please tell me it's out of stock till 1 April...
Click to expand...


It's been there a while Andy, spotted them a few months ago.


----------



## AndyT

Sheffield Tony":24swmq2q said:


> AndyT":24swmq2q said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only is it unnecessary, it risks spoiling the whole back to basics appeal of using a drawknife!
> !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. And (just to really stir the hornets' nest) if there is one tool on which I actually like a slightly rounded bevel, it is the drawknife ... (runs for cover :lol: )
Click to expand...


I agree and I think I can see why. Used bevel down, it can be like a very wide carver's chisel. If you are cutting first down into the wood and then along it (as you might be if making a stopped chamfer) you get more control if the back of the tool, touching the wood, is a continuous curve, not one corner then a second corner.


----------



## mark w

This honing guide is one of those items someone may purchase and then upon receipt of it say, now I`d better buy a drawknife. they are well engineered state of the art tools, a complete contrast to the item they are meant to sharpen.
The lights for the Jap saws are even worse.


----------



## Corneel

This thread keeps on amazing me. What happened to our jig loving friends? It's only $84, you know.


----------



## bugbear

Corneel":mhc4rcpn said:


> This thread keeps on amazing me. What happened to our jig loving friends? It's only $84, you know.



Not all jigs are created equal...

BugBear


----------



## Scouse

A most inconsiderate, even irresponsible thread.

Accepting the trap of commercialism into which the unwary or inexperienced woodworker may fall, the associated de-skilling of using a guide and the back to basics approach which comes with hand sharpening (even rounded bevels have gained complimentary comments), there really is only one victim here.

In reviewing the above thread, by extension the implication is that Jacob has been right all along, effectively rendering any future sharpening threads irrelevant, and muting this poor soul. Is this the true meaning behind the insidious vitriol present here? Accomodation into silence? Appeasement? I say NO! EMBRACE THE HONING GUIDE!

SAVE JACOB


----------



## Corneel

Aye!


----------



## Jacob

Sheffield Tony":25o8sv6e said:


> AndyT":25o8sv6e said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only is it unnecessary, it risks spoiling the whole back to basics appeal of using a drawknife!
> !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. And (just to really stir the hornets' nest) if there is one tool on which I actually like a slightly rounded bevel, it is the drawknife ... (runs for cover :lol: )
Click to expand...

 :lol: 
More to the point - for most purposes it makes no difference rounded/flat/multi-bevelled as long as the edges are the same (usually 30º) - so can you think of a circumstance where a rounded bevel is a disadvantage? I can't!


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":3t9vpjrc said:


> - so can you think of a circumstance where a rounded bevel is a disadvantage? I can't!



They have been extensively cited, so I won't bother repeating them here. The fact that you don't accept the objections does not invalidate them.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

Please remind us. 
I know they have been raised but I can't recall anything interesting. Not that I'm bothered - if flat is necessary then so be it. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong as a rounded bevel certainly works perfectly well most of the time.

PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer


----------



## AndyT

I think it's time to leave this thread alone and think of a new topic.


----------



## RossJarvis

AndyT":2ce8pr9s said:


> I think it's time to leave this thread alone and think of a new topic.



Very sorry to ignore such sensible advice, but I've obviously missed something here. What is a rounded bevel? Is that from the side on view, or the cutting edge, from above?


----------



## Carl P

Just to put this back on track....

Does anyone know of a honing guide with lights, plays radio 4 and brews a really nice Assam tea, if only I could get one, all my 'technical issues' would be solved!


Cheerio,

Carl


----------



## Corneel

Looking from the side you'll see a rounded bevel. As opposed to the concave grind for example.

On my drawknife I even have a small rounded bevel on the "flat side". That's how I learned to use the drawknife, bevel up and using that little roundness on the bottom to steer the knife in and out of the wood.


----------



## Richard T

When viewed from the side Ross. Straight edge. 

When ever the subject is raised, it causes conflict between those who prefer to open their hard boiled eggs at the little end with hollow bevels and those open them at the big end with convex bevels. 

This pointless war has been going on for years and until a giant comes along to steal both side's navy, there is no end in sight.

When sharpening my drawknife I tend to hold the stone from above. That way my hand is in the place where the blade isn't.


----------



## RossJarvis

Thanks guys, I've got it now.


----------



## bugbear

Richard T":1h3mhh5o said:


> This pointless war has been going on for years and until a giant comes along to steal both side's navy, there is no end in sight.



:lol: :lol: :lol: =D> =D> =D> 



BugBear


----------



## Cottonwood

LOL just imagine if the "sharpening is difficult" mentality was applied to bike riding...thered be gangs of middle aged men in tight lycra suits all riding on the pavement, with little kiddie stabilisers on their bikes, "because its too difficult to ride a bike safely without them......"


----------



## chipmunk

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread but it is related to the jig in question...

What are the general opinions about the idea of grinding/sharpening parallel with the cutting edge as this over-engineered masterpiece does? 

It seems intuitively wrong to me, although I can see that for very fine abrasives and for polishing it should in theory work ok and in fact for my Hamlet Big Brother, it's the recommended way to go. 

[Incidentally the inventor obviously wasn't a fan of Thomas Edison - "An Engineer is a man who can do for a dime what any fool can do for a dollar" :wink: ]

Jon


----------



## bugbear

Cottonwood":18da5bma said:


> LOL just imagine if the "sharpening is difficult" mentality was applied to bike riding...thered be gangs of middle aged men in tight lycra suits all riding on the pavement, with little kiddie stabilisers on their bikes, "because its too difficult to ride a bike safely without them......"



It's all a mater of the right amount of stability and control; not too little, not too much.







BugBear


----------



## Cottonwood

Richard T":1jyxnowx said:


> When sharpening my drawknife I tend to hold the stone from above. That way my hand is in the place where the blade isn't.



I have the stone inset into a wooden box, it sits across the bench snugly inside the tool well, so it wont move. To do a draw knife I hold the handles-with the edge facing away from me (not towards me as it would be in normal use). I hone either side of the blade, takes less than 1 minute, quick strop on leather and jap waterstone paste, ready to go. Since either hand is busy gripping the knife there is little risk of injury. In fact "holding the draw knife like a violin" as in Mr Galbert's advert is more chancy imho....just saying,


----------



## Corneel

bugbear":2dbbctof said:


> Cottonwood":2dbbctof said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL just imagine if the "sharpening is difficult" mentality was applied to bike riding...thered be gangs of middle aged men in tight lycra suits all riding on the pavement, with little kiddie stabilisers on their bikes, "because its too difficult to ride a bike safely without them......"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's all a mater of the right amount of stability and control; not too little, not too much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


My daughter learned herself to ride one of these when she was 8.

I couldn't be bothered though, pretty happy with two wheels.


----------



## Corneel

Not everybody is negative about this sharpening device:

http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/10/peter-galbert-drawsharp-tool-review.html


----------



## mark w

Jacob":1e2uvbg4 said:


> Please remind us.
> I know they have been raised but I can't recall anything interesting. Not that I'm bothered - if flat is necessary then so be it. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong as a rounded bevel certainly works perfectly well most of the time.
> 
> PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer



That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.


----------



## Corneel

Maybe I didn't listen carefully either, but what is so wrong with a convex bevel? I use the hollow grind method myself, but don't actually see anything wrong with the convex one. Any fundamental disadvantages?


----------



## mark w

Corneel":2nttzlgp said:


> Maybe I didn't listen carefully either, but what is so wrong with a convex bevel? I use the hollow grind method myself, but don't actually see anything wrong with the convex one. Any fundamental disadvantages?




Its not concave!


----------



## Jacob

mark w":l0crgle5 said:


> Jacob":l0crgle5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.
Click to expand...

OK stop beating about the bush just give me one convincing answer! I've been waiting for several years now. :shock:


----------



## mark w

Jacob":39dfegbm said:


> mark w":39dfegbm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":39dfegbm said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK stop beating about the bush just give me one convincing answer! I've been waiting for several years now. :shock:
Click to expand...


No point, you will just ignore it.


----------



## Jacob

mark w":dgpfw5kz said:


> Jacob":dgpfw5kz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mark w":dgpfw5kz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...........
> That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.
> 
> 
> 
> OK stop beating about the bush just give me one convincing answer! I've been waiting for several years now. :shock:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No point, you will just ignore it.
Click to expand...

No I will pay close attention and if possible do a comparison in the workshop. I'm all ears. Roll up! Wossit all about?


----------



## Corneel

mark w":361zyouw said:


> Corneel":361zyouw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I didn't listen carefully either, but what is so wrong with a convex bevel? I use the hollow grind method myself, but don't actually see anything wrong with the convex one. Any fundamental disadvantages?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not concave!
Click to expand...


Euh, yes, that's pretty obvious. But what is the fundamental disadvantage of the bevel not being concave?


----------



## Jacob

Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.

Come on don't be shy.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Jacob":2s0z1nwm said:


> Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
> I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.
> 
> Come on don't be shy.




I suspect I'm going to regret bothering to reply, but - Jacob, why are you so bothered about it? Convex bevels work OK. Ground primary/honed secondary bevels work OK. Concave ground bevels honed either flat-on-stone or with a micro-bevel (or whatever anybody wants to call them) work OK.

As long as it's sharp it works OK. Why the fuss about how different people get to a sharp edge?


----------



## Jacob

Cheshirechappie":1k93fpuo said:


> Jacob":1k93fpuo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
> I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.
> 
> Come on don't be shy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect I'm going to regret bothering to reply, but - Jacob, why are you so bothered about it? Convex bevels work OK. Ground primary/honed secondary bevels work OK. Concave ground bevels honed either flat-on-stone or with a micro-bevel (or whatever anybody wants to call them) work OK.
> 
> As long as it's sharp it works OK. Why the fuss about how different people get to a sharp edge?
Click to expand...

I agree. 
I'm bothered about it because to seems to bother a lot of other people and they get quite sarky about convex bevels.
NB there's no particular virtue in a convex bevel except it makes freehand rapid sharpening a lot easier. That's the whole point.


----------



## bobbybirds

Jacob":2bgvvo0y said:


> Cheshirechappie":2bgvvo0y said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":2bgvvo0y said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
> I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.
> 
> Come on don't be shy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect I'm going to regret bothering to reply, but - Jacob, why are you so bothered about it? Convex bevels work OK. Ground primary/honed secondary bevels work OK. Concave ground bevels honed either flat-on-stone or with a micro-bevel (or whatever anybody wants to call them) work OK.
> 
> As long as it's sharp it works OK. Why the fuss about how different people get to a sharp edge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree.
> I'm bothered about it because to seems to bother a lot of other people and they get quite sarky about convex bevels.
> NB there's no particular virtue in a convex bevel except it makes freehand rapid sharpening a lot easier. That's the whole point.
Click to expand...

Earlier this year after spending too much time trying to argue with Jacob that I see nothing wrong with using a jig to sharpen if that is what makes you feel better and get a better edge for your purposes, I had publicly stated that I would spend some time trying to learn how to sharpen freehand and experiment with a convex bevel.

Move ahead to today and I have been moving closer and closer to sharpening almost exclusively freehand. I am not purposefully trying to make a convex bevel, but the end result seems to end up that way all on its own, and I can't say I am noticing any difference in useable sharpness for what I do. I was having more difficulty with the wider blades than narrower ones, but even then I am getting things down quite well now.

If I need to reset a bevel completely because of a damaged edge I still use a honing guide (I have no grinder) simply because I can just lean into it and sharpen at a faster pace while removing a lot of material quickly, but really that is it.

So in the end, while I still think that if someone likes using a jig and it works for them, that is great! But now that I am freehand sharpening more and more, I am glad I spent the time to learn as it is quite freeing to not rely on anything but the stones, and I am noticing that sharpening does take less time out of my work than it used to (not crazy different, but definitely noticeable).

So Jacob, while I don't always appreciate your preaching ways, I am definitely big enough to throw a thank you your way for being responsible for pushing me over the edge into learning something new and helpful! If I make it over the pond one day I will have to buy you a few beers...


----------



## CONGER

Yep... well said.... thanks.

Now on with the banter?

My neighbour Charlene bought a dozen of those all blingy aluminium jigs... she uses them in the swinger club she goes to. 

She says they are machine washable.

I wonder if she knows about the LED lights? Hmmm!

-g-


----------



## mark w

I`m sorry to take so long to come back with an answer, I was catching up on Emmerdale. To be clear I am talking about grinding bevels not honing bevels and to start with we must agree that any grinding bevel (concave or convex, hollow or round, pick your term) will only let us hone it a set amount of times before it becomes difficult and impractical to hone, we then (in most cases) return to the grindstone and re-grind the bevel. I have found that grinding a concave (hollow) bevel allows more "hones" before the edge becomes to thick too hone and thus I am regrinding less frequently. I have also found that a hollow ground chisel offers less resistance when cutting, the round of a convex blade needs more force to be driven in, just think about the shape of the edge of both types of grind, the hollow grind offers a thinner more delicate edge and thus offers less resistance.
I believe David Charlesworth and James Krenov both prefer (with regards to the latter, preferred) hollow grinds.

I am not really bothered which way you prefer to grind your edge tools, what does bother me is the dogmatic way Jacob puts his point of view on almost everything, "Jacob says, therefore it is right and true, amen."
Please carry out your experiment Jacob, which I am already sure will prove the opposite


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

Re. The drawknife honing jig. Whilst it is not something that I would have a use for, if someone where to use the jig and then go on to make a beautiful Windsor chair, why would anyone give a rat's behind how they got thier shave sharp? Similarly, no one is going to get any bonus points for making a lousy chair, having done all the tool sharpening freehand. I'm baffled why there is such a fixation with honing guides. Every tool (almost) a woodworker uses is a blade holding jig of some sort. Isn't a travisher just an inshave set into a jig with depth limiter, depth adjuster and low centre of gravity handles? How the bodging community must have thrown their hands up in horror, when the travisher was invented.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob

mark w":2o7nrpdh said:


> ....... To be clear I am talking about grinding bevels not honing bevels and to start with we must agree that any grinding bevel (concave or convex, hollow or round, pick your term) will only let us hone it a set amount of times before it becomes difficult and impractical to hone, we then (in most cases) return to the grindstone and re-grind the bevel.


Don't agree. With freehand rounded bevel sharpening you _never_ have to regrind, until an edge is chipped or damaged by misuse. In any case I would grind flat on a blt sander or linisher.
I can see that a hollow ground edge could be advantageous for some ops such as shaving or slicing a sunday roast, but not really for woodwork


> ....
> I am not really bothered which way you prefer to grind your edge tools, what does bother me is the dogmatic way Jacob puts his point of view on almost everything, "Jacob says, therefore it is right and true, amen."


It's just that you have to be a bit assertive against the massed orthodoxy; woodworkers often seem to be a very obedient and conservative lot, always tipping their caps to St Jim, Aunty Joyce, our Dave et al. :lol:


> Please carry out your experiment Jacob, which I am already sure will prove the opposite


Bin there dunnit. That's how I used to do it and have been getting away from. I don't like bench grinders - too easy to overheat, and I don't like hollow ground edges - too fragile, and basically my sharpening has improved enormously since I set out to make it simple.
I suggest you have a go at the counter experiment - have a look at P Sellers round bevel sharpening vids and have a go yourself.


----------



## Jacob

woodbrains":113j5oeg said:


> ....... I'm baffled why there is such a fixation with honing guides. .....
> 
> Mike.


It's because most sharpening is easier and quicker without the gadgets, that's all.
It's important because sharpening is absolutely the key thing which makes it all possible and it seems a pity that so many have been persuaded that it's difficult.


----------



## Corneel

I think the devil is in the details. When sharpening a freshly grinded edge, every method works quickly. It is over time when the differences appear in maintaining that edge. Like I wrote, I use the hollow grind method. But I find myself back at the grinder quite often and grinding isn't quick. While maintaning the edge on the stones, quite soon the 1000 stone isn't fast enough anymore to raise the wire edge, so I switch to the 400 stone. 

At the other hand I hear from people sharpening their edges without ever using a grinder. So I am curious. How do they do that? How does it work over longer time? Something to experience with, I guess.

BTW, I don't know about the resitance of a convex or concave edge in the cut, when the honing angle is the equal. It would require quite a setup to really meassure the difference.


----------



## mark w

You don`t agree Jacob, how unusual!
Hollow grinding is good for woodwork and is good for all aspects of it.
My Tormek grinder doesn`t overheat anything, must be something to do with the water. I believe a sander and linisher also heat up a tool, you are contradicting yourself now.
Assertive, no, insular is a more apt word. 
I could bore you with my work history, trust me Jacob I have been taught how to sharpen using different methods and have been proficient in all, but unlike you I am always looking and trying new and or different methods, hollow grinding, honing with a honing guide is best. (I`m just being assertive).
I won`t bother looking at Mr Sellers vids, I don`t rate him at all, another dogmatic person.
Late for work now, will catch up with your latest comments when I get home.


----------



## Jacob

One of the clearest demos is Paul Sellers' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM
I do much the same, and also with oil stones.
Basically every time you hone you are also backing off the bevel a touch, instead of periodic re-grinding. If a burr doesn't come up quickly you go to a coarser stone and then back to finer. 
You can carry on like this indefinitely, unless you need reshape or take out a chip, then you go back to the grindstone.

PS


mark w":1fmf9hch said:


> Y......but unlike you I am always looking and trying new and or different methods, .......


I take you have a had a go with the Paul Sellers set up then? Did it not work?
NB I arrived at my current method after trying many new and or different methods, including jigs, scary sharp etc. I didn't just snatch it from thin air!
In fact I discovered it by accident when working out how to put a rounded bevel on a mortice chisel. Ridiculously easy, so I then asked myself why not do this on all edges.


----------



## Sgian Dubh

Back in the dark days of my training an old cabinetmaker said to me something like, "If you cannae even shairpen your tools sonny, ye'll niver be a cabinetmaker." I've removed some of the swear words and generally softened the tone. Back then I think the only sharpening guide or jig that might have existed was a Stanley or a Record device, I can't recall which brand, but I think it had a fairly narrow wheel at the back and you were meant to fiddle about fitting the plane iron or chisel on a plate above the wheel with a clamp thing to hold it in place. All the guys in the workshop seemed to consider such an 'aid' a worthless piece of junk and sharpened their standard plane irons, straight edged chisels, gouges and the like freehand on a combination oilstone, with a slip or two for odds and ends. 

There was no fuss about it and it was a case of "Tool's blunt, better sharpen it," and that was it. They could all plane wood, chop mortices, trim shoulders, pare slivers off wood, and make joinery and furniture, some of them very well, and others not so good. It just seems so odd to me that something so basic and essential to the trade has now become so difficult, challenging and involved with people poncing around with elaborate jigs and guides and electron microscopes and the like to inspect the results of their drawn out efforts. I've always found you don't need magnifying glasses and microscopes to tell you how good a job you've done of sharpening-- the first time you put tool to wood tells you immediately if you've done a good or useless job. And isn't that usually the point? Although I suppose for some people the main hobby is tool sharpening, and not woodworking.

Anyway, I can see how a simple guide or jig might be useful to an intermittent woodworker, but in all honesty I can't really fathom out why a professional woodworker needs such a thing (or multiple types of sharpening jigs or guides) but then I'm maybe old fashioned in that I let the cutting action of the tool on the wood tell me if it's doing the job it's meant to or not, and if it's not, I'd better slop it up and down a sharpening stone a bit until it's sharper. Slainte.


----------



## Corneel

http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Articles/lesson-in-sharpen/lesson-in-sharpening.html

I have been browsing your website a bit and stumbled on this nice piece of literature. I remember that I've been fuming about that piece, some two or three years ago, when I was still firmly attached to my nice little honing jig.

Now, I wish I had such a nice grumpy old basterd watching me over my shoulders. But I have to find it out all for myself in my wooden shed back in the garden.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Richard - 100%. If my knives, chisels, planes, etc. do not perform as I expect them to, I hone and sometimes grind them. I then return to using them where they perform as expected. It's neither a science nor an art form.


----------



## Tony Spear

Jacob":zsam79e5 said:


> Please remind us.
> I know they have been raised but I can't recall anything interesting. Not that I'm bothered - if flat is necessary then so be it. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong as a rounded bevel certainly works perfectly well most of the time.
> 
> PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer



I expect Jacob that all of this is like water....duck etc.

BUT, I knew a famous angler/writer who revolutionised coarse fishing after WW2 and used to get some real aggro at times for his "opinions" in the Angling press

He once said to me that "there's no reason for picking an argument with Dickie Walker : 

Firstly, I don't ever say this is true or this is fact - I merely express a theory or opinion. 

Secondly: 

*if you can prove me wrong however,* I'm quite prepared to admit it and apologise.

And he caught what was the biggest Carp caught in Britain for years and years!


----------



## woodbrains

Jacob":xg36flsk said:


> woodbrains":xg36flsk said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....... I'm baffled why there is such a fixation with honing guides. .....
> 
> Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> It's because most sharpening is easier and quicker without the gadgets, that's all.
> It's important because sharpening is absolutely the key thing which makes it all possible and it seems a pity that so many have been persuaded that it's difficult.
Click to expand...


Hello,

It may well be quick and easy without a jig, it may be more predictable and repeatable with one. The point is, as long as the tools are sharp, it doesn't matter a jot _how_ they got sharp. I agree that sharpening is fundamental, but the method of doing so is irrelevant. It is surprising, however, how many people just don't know what truly sharp is. If a jig provides them with that epiphany, then they should not be knocked. In the world of lone craftsmen finding things out for themselves, because there is no one to provide training these days, little aids might just help people along.

Just seen Richard Jones' article on the subject. It is one aspect of achieving the result, sure, but the only way, I think not. After all, it could be argued that discounting a two penny honing guide as unnecessary, when showing a picture of a blingy infill panel plane, might just be too ironic. :wink: I bet there are CNC machines in Leeds college, though.

Mike.


----------



## mark w

It always makes me smile when people say things like, "fiddling around with a jig" or "a guide is probably OK for a beginner" and "a few swipes on an oil stone and it was sharp", well jigs or in this case a honing guide is really easy to use there is no fiddling about and yes they are good for beginners and pros alike, if it is meant that only beginners use honing guides well that`s incorrect and nothing more than pomposity on the part of the person saying it and if you can get a truly sharp edge with just a few swipes on your oil stone, well good for you but then that blade probably isn`t A2 cryogenically hardened steel.

PS Was Richard Jones` tutor South African!


----------



## mark w

Jacob":cef4qaml said:


> One of the clearest demos is Paul Sellers' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM
> I do much the same, and also with oil stones.
> Basically every time you hone you are also backing off the bevel a touch, instead of periodic re-grinding. If a burr doesn't come up quickly you go to a coarser stone and then back to finer.
> You can carry on like this indefinitely, unless you need reshape or take out a chip, then you go back to the grindstone.
> 
> PS
> 
> 
> mark w":cef4qaml said:
> 
> 
> 
> Y......but unlike you I am always looking and trying new and or different methods, .......
> 
> 
> 
> I take you have a had a go with the Paul Sellers set up then? Did it not work?
> NB I arrived at my current method after trying many new and or different methods, including jigs, scary sharp etc. I didn't just snatch it from thin air!
> In fact I discovered it by accident when working out how to put a rounded bevel on a mortice chisel. Ridiculously easy, so I then asked myself why not do this on all edges.
Click to expand...

 You have done it again Jacob picking parts of the discussion to suit your opinion, lets get an answer about grinders, you said you don`t use them because they over heat the tool, how do you get around this with your sander or linisher? Or do you agree they too overheat the tool which then makes your comment worthless.


----------



## Jacob

mark w":1ybi59m0 said:


> ........
> You have done it again Jacob picking parts of the discussion to suit your opinion, lets get an answer about grinders, you said you don`t use them because they over heat the tool, how do you get around this with your sander or linisher? Or do you agree they too overheat the tool which then makes your comment worthless.


1 They do a nice controllable flat bevel which is what I want. Not hollow ground, or horribly nibbled if you just have a small one. Also does a nicely controlled edge shaping at 90º for a camber or for an accurate straight edge
2 They cut a lot cooler than a bench grinder. OK so you can get better stones but see 1 above.

I tried it first with an ordinary Bosch sander but sparks nearly set fire to it and I thought it wise to move on to a Sorby Proedge which is slightly OTT but a very nice tool.

Freehand honing is OK with A2 steel BTW. I thought it would be difficult but it isn't.


----------



## mark w

It was the oil stone I was referring to, not the method of sharpening A2 steel, you won`t get it sharp with a few swipes on an oil stone. I agree with you free hand sharpening is easy, really really easy, just the same as sharpening with a guide.


----------



## Jacob

mark w":22nh8vnq said:


> It was the oil stone I was referring to, not the method of sharpening A2 steel, you won`t get it sharp with a few swipes on an oil stone. ....


Seems to be no prob at all. I must be doing it wrong! 
It's a brick red coloured Norton double sided and I also use a finer buff coloured synthetic stone. Both very cheap and last forever.
2 things I do to improve oilstone use: 
1 take swarf off with a magnet- makes it cleaner and saves on oil
2 freshen the surface every now and then with a 3m Diapad (which I just happened to have, other abrasives will do I expect).



> .....free hand sharpening is easy, really really easy, just the same as sharpening with a guide......


It's much easier without guide. I can freshen up an edge in less time than it takes to fit it into a guide, and the guide makes things difficult in other ways too.


----------



## MIGNAL

I've just been on a forum and I've been told that it's *impossible* to produce a square edge on Chisel/Plane blades when freehand sharpening! (but it is possible with a jig)
You see it's all to do with the way that tools are tempered (only understood by engineers and metallurgists), which results in one edge of the blade being harder than the other edge. Hence it's not possible to get it square using freehand methods and despite your best efforts!
The guide lot really do come out with some amazing theoretical beliefs. No doubt you will need a crowbar to remove the damn things from their death grip. :shock:


----------



## Cottonwood

MIGNAL":301fplxc said:


> I've just been on a forum and I've been told that it's *impossible* to produce a square edge on Chisel/Plane blades when freehand sharpening! (but it is possible with a jig)
> You see it's all to do with the way that tools are tempered (only understood by engineers and metallurgists), which results in one edge of the blade being harder than the other edge. Hence it's not possible to get it square using freehand methods and despite your best efforts!
> The guide lot really do come out with some amazing theoretical beliefs. No doubt you will need a crowbar to remove the damn things from their death grip. :shock:



:lol: :lol: :lol: =D>


----------



## Corneel

For me the epiphany came when my slowly accumulating heap of old rubish started to contain some tools I couldn't sharpen. A router plane, a scrubplane with an agressive camber, some gouges, a drawknife. Nothing very special. It was especially the scrubplane which worked like a lightbulb in my head. I had some rough, thick wood at that time, that I wanted to be a lot thinner, so I had to sharpen the thing and resharpen freehand a couple of times. These weren't the best edges ever, but it worked.

So, I started to think, why do I sharpen the easy stuff with a jig and doing the difficult stuff without? That was the first step. The next was realising how much faster, and less cumbersome free hand sharpening really is.

I still use the crutch of the hollow grind. So the next step is going to be if I can master this convex bevel thing in a daily routine. Well, after I finish my sawbuilding project of course.


----------



## mark w

> It's much easier without guide. I can freshen up an edge in less time than it takes to fit it into a guide, and the guide makes things difficult in other ways too.


 I`ll say once more, guides are easy to use, freehand sharpening is just as easy, guides don`t make it any harder.

Mignal, you visited another forum to find something misleading about the use of a honing guide or so you believe, I don`t know if that`s true or not, what I do know is, I don`t have to visit any other forums to find rubbish talked about freehand sharpening, Jacob, you and a few others are right here.


----------



## MIGNAL

Sorry mate but don't tell me what I did and did not try to 'find'. 
It's a forum that I visit and contribute to on a regular basis. I didn't try to 'find' anything. Don't start inferring things that you know nothing of.
The topic was on honing Guides, specifically the Veritas MK11.
The inevitable happened. People started taking sides, although mild mannered.
Was his theoretical assumption correct? It's quite obvious that it's complete BS. It's obvious to anyone with the most basic bit of knowledge on sharpening.
The other month I took 1/4" off a straight (beveled both sides) 5 mm carving chisel, freehand on a coarse Oil stone. 
Why didn't it turn out like a skew chisel?


----------



## Jacob

mark w":8ogj4p87 said:


> .....
> I`ll say once more, guides are easy to use, freehand sharpening is just as easy, guides don`t make it any harder......


Say it as often as you like but it won't alter my own personal experience. It was a great relief to be free of guides/jigs and finally be able to sharpen quickly and efficiently. 
Maybe I was doing something wrong with the jigs? I've still got them in a drawer somewhere - I might have another go and see if I was missing something. I must say I haven't felt the slightest inclination to dig them out over the last few years.


----------



## mark w

> Sorry mate but don't tell me what I did and did not try to 'find'.


Mate now am I? I thought I was something beginning with W according to you, you still haven`t told me what you meant by that.


> The topic was on honing Guides, specifically the Veritas MK11.


Excellent guide, simple, accurate and made by an excellent company.


> It's a forum that I visit and contribute to on a regular basis. I didn't try to 'find' anything. Don't start inferring things that you know nothing of.


I think you are quite angry, I don`t know why, its only sharpening tools we are talking about, but if you weren`t looking for it, why bother repeating it here, keep it on your other forum, it wasn`t helpfull. 


> Was his theoretical assumption correct? It's quite obvious that it's complete BS. It's obvious to anyone with the most basic bit of knowledge on sharpening.


So you struggled with it then.


----------



## Jacob

Mark the mistake you are making is in assuming that because you can't do it then neither can anyone else.

Some people struggle to sharpen pencils, which is about the same level of difficulty as freehand sharpening (for a small chisel at least).


----------



## Cottonwood

Bradlye Wiggin's manages ok without kiddie bike stabilisers :idea: 
I bet Ginger baker never used a click track to record drums either :idea: 
I'll get my coat.... :roll:


----------



## Jacob

Hmm. I practice banjo with metronome, but only when nobody is looking.

The way jigs are sold is a bit like remedies for fictitious ailments. Remember Horlicks and "night starvation"? :shock: Nobody actually died from it but a lot of people took no chances!


----------



## Corneel

The Veritas MK2 is especially troublesome. Too heavy. Too complex. And easy to skew the iron accidentally.


----------



## mark w

> Mark the mistake you are making is in assuming that because you can't do it then neither can anyone else.


I didn`t say I couldn`t do it, I can do it. Assumptions, assumptions, Jacob.


> The Veritas MK2 is especially troublesome. Too heavy. Too complex. And easy to skew the iron accidentally.


Never found it too heavy, never had any of the other problems, maybe you need to be really skilled to use a jig, now there`s a thought!


> Bradlye Wiggin's manages ok without kiddie bike stabilisers


What about when he was a kiddy?


----------



## bobbybirds

Corneel":gr9af3dk said:


> The Veritas MK2 is especially troublesome. Too heavy. Too complex. And easy to skew the iron accidentally.



See, now this is not true for all... I use this jig exclusively and find it a super easy and reliable jig. It had a slight learning curve, but in no time at all it had me making wonderfully sharp edges and accurate bevels. I never have a problem using it. Just like any method, if you take the time to understand and learn it, you will do well with it. Even though I am now sharpening almost exclusively freehand, this is my go to jig when I need to completely redo a bevel.

I am not saying your statement is false in your preference of a jig, but in general there are many more people who love this tool than dislike it. Unfortunately the nay say'rs of any product are always more vocal than the people that just happily carry on with their day content with their quality product.

Again though, I am quite content not using any jig anymore. Not for ever having issues with a jig, but not using one has become quite simple and liberating in that I can grab almost any blade and a stone a just get it done and move on...


----------



## Jacob

mark w":eo2op990 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Bradlye Wiggin's manages ok without kiddie bike stabilisers
> 
> 
> 
> What about when he was a kiddy?
Click to expand...

It's generally recognised that stabilisers don't help at all. Kids learn faster and better without them. "Balance" bikes or old fashioned scooters are a better starting point.


----------



## Cottonwood

Jacob":3aadn64j said:


> mark w":3aadn64j said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Bradlye Wiggin's manages ok without kiddie bike stabilisers
> 
> 
> 
> What about when he was a kiddy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's generally recognised that stabilisers don't help at all. Kids learn faster and better without them. "Balance" bikes or old fashioned scooters are a better starting point.
Click to expand...


Despite that possibility, there is the fact that, normally, children develop-physically, emotionally, intellectually, socially etc etc. "Developmental milestones" I think is the sociologists industry term these days. Maybe B Wiggins DID need a pair of stabilisers when he was little, its generally regarded as kinda normal at that age (5 or6?). But no one (including Mr Wiggins I suspect) would claim to have learned to ride a bike _properly_ until they get beyond the need for them-and it would also look kinda strange to watch him whizzing round France with a pair of stabilsers on his bike..... :lol:


----------



## Jacob

Cottonwood":3gfz0jc8 said:


> .... its generally regarded as kinda normal at that age (5 or6?). ....... :lol:


My grandson (5) is pedalling about on his first lightweight with 5 gears. He started at 3 ish with a balance bike. Stabilisers aren't that normal - at least, not where parents/grandparents do a bit of cycling themselves!
But you can see the logic - they are bought by people who don't know any better, a bit like sharpening jigs!

PS http://www.islabikes.co.uk/ - a bit pricey but 2nd hand you mostly likely get your money back as they grow out of them fast. Wish I'd had one when I was little. I started on me mums shopper. Huge iron thing with a basket. Couldn't sit on the seat _and_ reach the pedals. Stabiliser, like sharpening jigs, had not been invented.


----------



## nicguthrie

Sad that yet another sharpening war erupts, and actual sharpening was not even really the topic of the post! Then again, it was directed at Jacob, and about a sharpening jig, so I see what started it...

Gonna stand on my soapbox here;

The really sad part is that this whole tendancy to erupt into "My side is better than your side" stems from a part of the human psyche that we seem as a race to be completely unable to get a handle on as yet. Whether or not to use a jig when sharpening gets right under the skin of those with a "Law" based mentality, where there must be a right and a wrong (like my missus, she's right, I'm wrong, it's simple) and whips things up to the point that, if religion or politics was involved, war would break out. (And don't say calm heads would prevail, wars have been fought over far lesser things, at least as excuses)

The truth of the matter, from the point of view of one of us more chaotically minded types that prefer principles in general is simple - The correct way to sharpen a tool is until it's sharp. Use any method that takes your fancy or provides optimum efficiency to you personally.

I use a worksharp 3000 to reference my bevels, repair an edge or even to polish up a messed up bevel on one of my chisels that I really like pretty. When I'm working at a job and like to just keep my head down and stay in the zone I use a small diamond stone to touch the edge up as it blunts a bit, freehand. Neither is superior, neither is actually faster in reality, inasmuch as would make any real difference in a working day.

Accept that there's three sides to every story, there's your own, the other guys, and somewhere in the grey area between, there's the truth.

Get's off soapbox.

And yes, sharp shiny tools is a part of my hobby, not the main part, but I'd happily enjoy an hour sharpening and maintaining all my stuff occasionally - it's not all about the tools, but it pretty much all involves them 

Nic.


----------



## Corneel

Oh come on Nic. You don't need to compare a heated argument on a forum with the principles of war. Forums are made for discussions. Without discussions these forums would be utterly dull.


----------



## mark w

The whole point of directing this at Jacob was for entertainment value, its either this or sit in front of the telly during the evening.


----------



## iNewbie

Jacob":31mklm5t said:


> mark w":31mklm5t said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Bradlye Wiggin's manages ok without kiddie bike stabilisers
> 
> 
> 
> What about when he was a kiddy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's generally recognised that stabilisers don't help at all. Kids learn faster and better without them. "Balance" bikes or old fashioned scooters are a better starting point.
Click to expand...


Depends on the child - same as learning: auditory, visual and kinesthetic. 

If we go by your methods Jacob we'd not even bother with a Balance Bike because its an AID - as is a stabilizer! Throw 'em on a bike with cogs and let'em learn via trial and error, eh? :wink:


----------



## Corneel

This a good balance toy for kids who are not old enough to be able to learn bicycling. Stabilisers on a kids bike do nothing for develloping the kid's balance.


----------



## Jacob

iNewbie":2k2onb1h said:


> .....
> If we go by your methods Jacob we'd not even bother with a Balance Bike because its an AID - as is a stabilizer! Throw 'em on a bike with cogs and let'em learn via trial and error, eh? :wink:


Err, thats more or less what we did. I can remember being launched off down a hill on me mums bike. Luckily the basket broke my fall!


----------



## RossJarvis

mark w":328cgfel said:


> The whole point of directing this at Jacob was for entertainment value, its either this or sit in front of the telly during the evening.



I knew it, I knew it. If it gets out that there's a sport of "Jacob Baiting" (hammer) , the Labour Party will ban it, or else they'll have to make the telly more interesting!


----------



## iNewbie

Corneel":2hqeglqq said:


> This a good balance toy for kids who are not old enough to be able to learn bicycling. Stabilisers on a kids bike do nothing for develloping the kid's balance.



Didn't do me any harm - I didn't have a balance bike. As I said earlier: depends on the child.


----------



## Corneel

Doesn't harm indeed. Kids like to play with the bike with stabiisers. Doesn't help them to develop balance skills though. After a while it doesn't matter either way.The kid grows up, his motoring skills improves and he/she can learn to ride a real bicycle.

Just like adult man in fact. They can learn freehand sharpening skills too, if they are so inclined, or see the need. It would have been a lot less painfull if we had learn that skill at young age.


----------



## Cottonwood

Has anyone ever stopped to think about the old childhood games such as cup in a ball, hoop and stick etc, very good at developing hand/eye coordination, which is the basis of all manual skill in crafts and trades


----------



## iNewbie

Corneel":2cyw4xny said:


> Doesn't harm indeed. Kids like to play with the bike with stabiisers. Doesn't help them to develop balance skills though.



Lean over on a bike with stabilisers and you'll soon learn about balance skills...


----------



## nicguthrie

Corneel":t0hscmpw said:


> Oh come on Nic. You don't need to compare a heated argument on a forum with the principles of war. Forums are made for discussions. Without discussions these forums would be utterly dull.



True, sorry I was a bit heavy handed, started as a flippant short comment and sort of evolved, I'd had a hard week! The principle still stands, there's no wrong and right in the great Jig/no Jig, Grinder/no Grinder debate. So long as the tools end up sharp enough to be efficient. I happen to like mine both shiny and sharp 

Nic.

As for balance, mine was always terrible, but then I learned how to pedal around fast in a hand-me-down one of these


----------



## Cheshirechappie

nicguthrie":mzqzqt4e said:


> As for balance, mine was always terrible, but then I learned how to pedal around fast in a hand-me-down one of these



Ah - an eco-quadbike!

But did it help you to sharpen your drawknife?


----------



## Corneel

Ah yes, drawknifes! I am quite new to the world of drawknifes. Not an easy tool to use.


----------



## Tony Spear

nicguthrie
t then I learned how to pedal around fast in a hand-me-down one of these :)
[attachment=0:ntx6wj6b said:


> yellow_kettcar.jpg[/attachment]



Pah! Rubbish! When I've got the time I'll take and post a piccie of my new road-legal (but designed for off-road use) mobility scooter! All the bells and whistles and as it's a three-wheeler, your balance skills need to be pretty good. First time out, I took it down a local footpath, lost concentration for a few seconds and ended up in the base of a hedge with a considerable weight of machinery on top of me!!! :shock: :shock: 

Good job I had my mobile in an accessible pocket 'cos otherwise I could be there still!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Benchwayze

Just use the back-doorstep. Or the front-door one if you don't mind sharpening in public.  

And the back edge of one kitchen knife is better than a steel, when you want to liven up the edge of another knife. 8)


----------



## mark w

> I knew it, I knew it. If it gets out that there's a sport of "Jacob Baiting" (hammer) , the Labour Party will ban it, or else they'll have to make the telly more interesting!


Make the telly more interesting, David Cameron has got more chance of winning the next election!


----------



## Sgian Dubh

woodbrains":ux1y5e6d said:


> Just seen Richard Jones' article on the subject ... it could be argued that discounting a two penny honing guide as unnecessary, when showing a picture of a blingy infill panel plane, might just be too ironic. I bet there are CNC machines in Leeds college, though. Mike.


Actually Mike, that "blingy" looking plane you noticed is a bit of a diversion. It just happened to be handy when I was looking for an iron to sharpen to serve as an illustration for the text. It's actually one of my least favoured planes in terms of usability. Sadly it's a late post Second World war Norris from just before they went out of business and it's a pretty sad tool overall and even lacks the adjuster for depth and lateral setting.

There certainly is a CNC machine in the college and its capabilities are remarkable even though it's only a three axis machine, and also considered a bit old technology nowadays because it was purchased new towards the end of the 90s. Still, the CNC machine doesn't help much at the chisel and plane iron sharpening end of the business, ha, ha. Slainte.


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

That is a pity, I quite like Norris planes, though don't own one, nor ever expect to, sadly. The point really is that something that is seen as rather useful by one might be redundant for another. The thing is, woodwork is something that is seen as old fashioned, or even antediluvian by some people these days. If we do not move with the times, it will become a dead art, if it hasn't already. OK, these new jigs for sharpening spokeshaves might seem a bit OTT, but it heartens me that there is still interest enough by inventors and the end users of these devices, to keep things moving forward. There was only high carbon steel available when sharpening methods were seen merely as rubbing the tool on a bit of stone, but now we have all sorts of exotic tool steels and lots of different stones to go with them. I for one favour the progress and can take or leave the new developments as suits me and my work needs. Who'd have thought just a few years ago, that we could sharpen D2 steel plane irons on mono-crystalline diamonds set into nickel plate. It would be foolish to think that the same sharpening mantra of our grandfathers is the only thing relevant nowadays.

Mike.


----------



## mark w

Antediluvian, nice word.


----------



## Corneel

Nothing against good inovations! I am very curious how the new Lee Valley toolssteel performs for example. But not everything they make is a step forwards. There are also lots of gimmicks available, with cunning marketing techniques to loosen some money from your pocket.

When talking about sharpening jigs, they replace a skill which really isn't so hard to learn, and you can only use them for a limited amount of tools. For the tools that don't fit, you need to buy new jigs. At the same time, handtool usage is all about handskills.

Before anyone accuses me of starting WW III, I don't mind what anyone uses in his/her own shop! This is just my opinion, and the logic behind it.

BTW, Lee Valley has a new jig in the pipeline. They too finally reached the conclusion that the MK2 jig is troublesome and will bring a sideclamping jig on the market. You see, my opinions aren't always nonsence.


----------



## bugbear

Corneel":1a1aw5f3 said:


> BTW, Lee Valley has a new jig in the pipeline. They finally reached the conclusion that the MK2 jig is troublesome and will bring a sideclamping jig on the market. You see, my opinions aren't always nonsence.



I've been advocating the benefits in many circumstances of side clamping jigs (the Eclipse has been the best implemenation till now) for years, as has DC.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

Corneel":tdefifx1 said:


> ....
> BTW, Lee Valley has a new jig in the pipeline. They too finally reached the conclusion that the MK2 jig is troublesome and will bring a sideclamping jig on the market. You see, my opinions aren't always nonsence.


MK3 eh? Can't wait!
They are an interesting evolutionary phenomenon though. Jigs are invented to solve a problem which doesn't really exist. Instead _they_ become the problem. Each new jig becomes an effort to sort out the problems of the earlier models. Where will this end? 
Will they become ever more complicated and take over the universe, or will their evolution go into reverse with increasing simplicity?


----------



## mark w

Language Jcacob, I didn`t think I would ever hear you use language like that, MK3 and jig in the same paragraph, whatever next, Veritas?


----------



## Paul Chapman

Corneel":2qjgx5u3 said:


> BTW, Lee Valley has a new jig in the pipeline.



That's good news  It will give you nutters a bit more to rant about rather than doing any woodwork :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## iNewbie

Jacob":3jmgo9w5 said:


> Corneel":3jmgo9w5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> BTW, Lee Valley has a new jig in the pipeline. They too finally reached the conclusion that the MK2 jig is troublesome and will bring a sideclamping jig on the market. You see, my opinions aren't always nonsence.
> 
> 
> 
> MK3 eh? Can't wait!
> They are an interesting evolutionary phenomenon though. Jigs are invented to solve a problem which doesn't really exist. Instead _they_ become the problem. Each new jig becomes an effort to sort out the problems of the earlier models. Where will this end?
> Will they become ever more complicated and take over the universe, or will their evolution go into reverse with increasing simplicity?
Click to expand...


Allegedly its being called the Jacobnator. As you push/pull its says: _I'll be back_. In a Droning fashion, so-it-is. :wink:


----------



## MIGNAL

That's just the MKIII. Wait until the MK IV arrives and I certainly won't spoil things by telling you what the MK V can do. The MK V starts getting a bit serious! 
£3,000 later and you might end up with a jig that can actually sharpen both a 2 mm and a 25 mm chisel!! You'll have to wait for the MK MDCCC for the one that does gouges though.


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

I thoroughly agree, that not all innovation is useful. But then there were plenty of old innovation that just didn't work, either. Look at the Stanley back catalogue for instance, there is some surprisingly useles gizmos there, made at the time when Stanley's manufacturing quality was at its best. A coinsidence; I think not. Somehow these inventions got the status of being collectible curiosities and charming olde world style. It is funny how perspective changes viewpoints. Let us keep moving things forwards, it is all part of the fun. Veritas and others should not be condemned for trying to innovate and make the quality tools that have been missing from the marketplace for so long.

Mike.


----------



## Corneel

No indeed, condemnation is not right. They make some nice tools, allthough I prefer the old stuff personally. But as forum members we can give our opinion which ones are nice and which ones can be skipped. It's easy to get overwhelmed when browsing the catalogues, and starting to believe that you need it all. But you can get along with a surprisingly small kit. That's not good for the growth rate of the tool suppliers of course.

And before anyone thinks I am advocating a small toolset, I bought 6 nice early Nooitgedagt chisels today. 8)


----------



## David C

L-N also have a new side clamping jig. Should be around before too long. 

Simple honing guides are wonderfully effective.

Let no one tell you otherwise. ~;-)#

David Charlesworth


----------



## Brian Boggs

I am also one of those folks that hates to see so many unnecessary gizmos on the market, mostly targeted to take advantage of the plethora of unskilled hands that want to make furniture. I have been preaching for decades that the more we know the less we need. One of the worst impacts of this volume of gear is that it collectively takes up so much space in our browsers and fouls our attitudes such that it is easy to miss a jewel when one does come along.
I have been teaching how to sharpen drawknives for decades and have felt quite satisfied I know how to get a good edge on my knife. But when Peter contacted me to get my thoughts on his new invention, I thought it was worth a look. Having used for a couple of months, I will have to say I am impressed. Not only is the tool handsomely designed, it is well thought out and works quickly. After 31 years of mastering my old way of sharpening, I find this tool to make the job easier, faster, and actually more consistent than the best I can do without it. 
I have taught hundreds of people in five countries and three languages. Quite a variety of humans. They all have the same struggles and this tool addresses then brilliantly.
Of course you don’t need it. But if you’re anything like me you’ll likely be surprised at how it can speed up an old process.
This tool does not leave a perfect edge and this is stated in the literature supplied with it. You’ll need to follow up by light honing or stropping. But it sure gets the edge in shape for that step quickly. The stropping after that is a piece of cake.

It is a challenge to stay open minded in the face of so much unneeded gadgetry pushed on us. In fact I would have missed this tool altogether had Pete not sent me one. Well done, Peter!


----------



## Richard T

Well done Peter indeed and welcome to the madhouse Brian. Best of luck with it.


----------



## mark w

Interesting post Brian, keeping open minded is always a good thing.


----------



## Jacob

I'll have a go if Peter sends me one too - one has to be open minded! I won't be buying one though. No way. :roll:


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":1ztid58u said:


> I'll have a go if Peter sends me one too - one has to be open minded! I won't be buying one though. No way. :roll:



You could probably sell it for what you paid, if you didn't like it.

BugBear


----------



## David C

Anyone not familiar with Brian's fantastic craftsmanship, should look at his website.

His words, "easier, faster and more consistent" seem to ring a bell ?

David Charlesworth


----------



## mark w

Come on Jacob, purchase one and try it out, you could give us all your unbiased ( :wink: ) view and as bugbear said you could always sell it on.


----------



## Jacob

So many gadgets, so little time!


----------



## Jacob

David C":tawep9xo said:


> Anyone not familiar with Brian's fantastic craftsmanship, should look at his website.
> 
> His words, "easier, faster and more consistent" seem to ring a bell ?
> 
> David Charlesworth


Yes it does ring a bell. Heard it many times - it's what they all say! :lol: :lol: 
Don't be taken in by it Dave.
"New + improved" is more convincing IMHO. I always buy "New + improved" things, whatever they are.


----------



## Tony Spear

Brian Boggs":2472lmi2 said:


> Not only is the tool handsomely designed, it is well thought out and works quickly. After 31 years of mastering my old way of sharpening, I find this tool to make the job easier, faster, and actually more consistent than the best I can do without it.
> But it sure gets the edge in shape for that step quickly. The stropping after that is a piece of cake.
> 
> It is a challenge to stay open minded in the face of so much unneeded gadgetry pushed on us. In fact I would have missed this tool altogether had Pete not sent me one. Well done, Peter!



Is it configured so that you can use it on Sickles, Scythes and Billhooks?

I'll leave Kukris at this stage, because they keep emerging from unexpected situatios around the house and workshop - often in *very dangerous hands :shock: *


----------



## Jacob

This is configured for axes, sickles, scythes, billhooks, kukris, draw-knives, amongst many other things.


----------



## David C

Is that one about 50 grit, or would a concrete block be smoother?


----------



## David C

I have just plowed through much of this thread.

When presented with an ingenious draw knife sharpening jig, the freehand mob pile in, rubbishing the idea with much glee.

Then the traditional and endlessly repeated feud breaks out for many pages.

Two professional chairmakers who actually use the tool rather more than most posters, tell us that it is useful precise and quick.

What an embarrasingly pathetic thread.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Jacob

Yebbut Dave that gadget would cost twice as much as my draw knife. 
Like millions of other draw knife users (very occasional on my part) I've never felt the need for sharpening gadget. It's not at all clear why anybody would want it - you still have to hone the edge (Brian Boggs says) so what's the point? 
I presume you have bought one yourself? How did you sharpen them previously?


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

Naysayers et al; if a device does its intended job well, but you have no use for it, that does not make the device useless. This is not the same thing as a device, or tool, which does not do its job correctly, and therefore _is _useless. Please differentiate between the two as it just makes people look ridiculous. It is interesting to hear the reasons why you might not need the device, but you cannot say why others should not have it, that is for them to decide, based upon the reasons contended from all points of view. We all work in different ways and to different standards, so what is useful for some may not be for others, but if the device works, you cannot condemn someone for inventing it or using it for the purpose it was designed for.

Many of us have given reasons why a honing jig might be useful, but they are always rejected and conveniently ignored when the debate rears its ugly head over and over. Like I said before, if the craftsman makes beautiful, well constructed things, why would anyone give a rats behind, how the tools were sharpened. Nor is there added merit in doing something badly, but totally freehand. It is the results that count.

Mike.


----------



## mark w

I wouldn`t take it too seriously David, I posted the thread originally as a bit of a joke, perhaps that was lost as the posts continued.


----------



## CStanford

Jacob":i1xxinyy said:


> Yebbut Dave that gadget would cost twice as much as my draw knife.
> Like millions of other draw knife users (very occasional on my part) I've never felt the need for sharpening gadget. It's not at all clear why anybody would want it - you still have to hone the edge (Brian Boggs says) so what's the point?
> I presume you have bought one yourself? How did you sharpen them previously?



I think this post gets to the kernel of the matter -- what is it about one's current method that isn't working? Somebody completely unable to work up a freehanded, serviceable edge should probably be using a spokeshave (a tamer tool) anyway. If ever there were a tool that is 'freehanded' in use then it's the drawknife. I'm pretty sure that anybody able to USE one with any deftness at all (a requirement to forestall the utter disaster and disappointment that awaits otherwise) can also put an edge on one. A drawknife is just not a tool to be put into the hands of somebody not already shop-savvy, certainly not somebody who is flummoxed by sharpening, generally.

Peter Galbert, the inventor, is indeed a fantastic chair-maker with a couple decades long history of producing great chairs. This jig is new. The question in my mind is what did he do for the last twenty years or so -- a way more interesting question and ultimately more enlightening than simply buying his new jig.


----------



## David C

Charles,

I have watched Brian working with a draw knife, and seen how acomplished and skilled he is.

I merely pointed out that these two professional chairmakers find merit in the guide.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Corneel

I don't have really an opinion about this thing, because I've never used it and probably never will. Before it lands on my doorstep, it is at least a 100 euro, with shippingcosts, 21% Vat plus importtax. For a one trick pony, that's a lot of money. I am only an occasional drawknife user, and am getting along fine with an oilsstone and a leather strop. In fact, using the wretched thing is far more adventourous then sharpening it.


----------



## Cottonwood

David C":2cifhdf8 said:


> Charles,
> 
> I have watched Brian working with a draw knife, and seen how acomplished and skilled he is.
> 
> I merely pointed out that these two professional chairmakers find merit in the guide.
> 
> David Charlesworth


Whats wrong with criticising something that is patently really totally unecessary-except perhaps for people who love to acquire lots of gadgets? And any way, how on earth DID draw knife users manage for centuries before this piece of kit was invented? So what if "professional chairmakers " find it useful, it stands to reason they would, it seems every one these days on the industry circuit has a sideline tool range of some sort to sell, either that or books, dvd's, training courses etc. I wonder if B Bogges would of paid out of his own pocket on spec based on an online advert or something. I guess its far more difficult to be negative when you get a freebie....just saying


----------



## Cottonwood

LOL wait for it....B Boggs uses ROUNDED BEVELLS on his drawknife (at least he did so before he got this amazing gadget to do the job)


----------



## Phil Pascoe

If we spent our lives criticising things that were actually unneccessary, we'd need more than 168hrs a week.


----------



## Cottonwood

phil.p":23qkhkbd said:


> If we spent our lives cricising things that were actually unneccessary, we'd need more than 168hrs a week.



Well, theres probaly just about enough pointless dvds, gadgets, jigs and other stuff to keep someone busy if they be so inclines. But this thread is specifically about an apparently pointless (and expensive) piece of draw knife sharpening kit with limited scope of use....which I see fit to criticise (homer)


----------



## David C

At the risk of being repetetive, it seems odd that the part time users feel so free to criticize something which they have not even tried, while the two professionals like it.

David


----------



## Phil Pascoe

David, I suspect some of the people quick to criticise have never used or sharpened the tool in the first place. It's just "I'm better, cleverer, and more capable than you. So there."


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

If professional chair makers say the gadget does things better and quicker than without, all negative comments from those who haven't even tried the thing, are completely redundant anyway. If people are trying to appear stupid, they are succeeding. Getting the shave sharp without even rising from the shave horse, for a professional chair maker? I'm not sure I see the downside. Time is money; the outlay is likely to be recouped in a week.

Mike.


----------



## Cottonwood

phil.p":342lqnya said:


> David, I suspect some of the people quick to criticise have never used or sharpened the tool in the first place. It's just "I'm better, cleverer, and more capable than you. So there."


Your too suspicious mate, the last time I did _my_ draw knife was day before yesterday (rugby day yesterday) It camme up razor sharp as always does... (hammer) 



woodbrains":342lqnya said:


> Hello,
> 
> If professional chair makers say the gadget does things better and quicker than without, all negative comments from those who haven't even tried the thing, are completely redundant anyway. If people are trying to appear stupid, they are succeeding. Getting the shave sharp without even rising from the shave horse, for a professional chair maker? I'm not sure I see the downside. Time is money; the outlay is likely to be recouped in a week.
> 
> Mike.


LOL you mean-we have to accept as gospel anything a proffessional says?? :shock: 
What on earth was or is wrong with B Boggs's original nifty and efficient method (on video, no gadget except brown paper to stop grit dust getting onto shave horse) and how would this new gadget improve things bearing in mind he uses rounded bevvels to the draw knife?


----------



## Corneel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVMcFjoOL4 You mean this video?

And as a reminder for everyone. Let's try to refrain from personal attacks and degoratory remarks. For example, somebody isn't "stupid" because he questions the usefullness of something without having used it yet.


----------



## Jacob

I was about to post the same link.
More or less how I do it, though I haven't done a lot with draw knives. Hope to do more.
The main prob with sharpening draw knives is that the handles get in the way so you have to have your oilstone up high, as Boggs shows. An alternative is to have the stone on the edge of a bit of 6"x2" (depending on stone size) held in the vice so you can do it standing up away from the shave horse. 
Similar with woody spokeshave blades - the tangs get in the way so you have to raise the stone . Also needs to be a narrow stone for SS blades, so the edge of the stone is ideal.
The gadgets are for people who haven't been shown or can't work out how to do things. 
I've no objection to our various experts making a few bob on the side selling gadgets, DVDs, T shirts, tea towels, whatever, but I can't see why Dave and Mike get so self righteous about it. They don't even use them themselves. Do they want to gadgetize everything? Wossit all about? :shock:

PS Boggsy's method is a bit on the fussy side - diamond _and_ waterstone! Both ops easily done with one oil stone and easier away from the shave horse so you can leave both your workpiece and your sharpening kit set up, without having to re-arrange them.


----------



## David C

Well Jep, wrong again. Please stop inventing these ridiculous lies.

I have used a draw knife to make one of Brian Boggs' chairs.

The facets left on the surface make a pleasing change from the smooth flat surfaces of much cabinetwork.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Jacob

David C":3srwxgd7 said:


> Well Jep, wrong again. Please stop inventing these ridiculous lies.
> 
> I have used a draw knife to make one of Brian Boggs' chairs.
> 
> The facets left on the surface make a pleasing change from the smooth flat surfaces of much cabinetwork.
> 
> David Charlesworth


I meant the gadget Dave. I guessed you might have had a go with a draw knife at some point.
Have you bought the gadget? If not, why not?


----------



## David C

Well I apologise for getting that wrong.

I am simply astonished that so many people who are not full time users of draw knives, are so dismissive of this nicely made guide. 

However It is also clear that if a good enough result is being got freehand, the guide is not necessary.

If I were contemplating another country chair, I think I might well buy one !!

David


----------



## CStanford

Corneel":lj8px4ms said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVMcFjoOL4 You mean this video?
> 
> And as a reminder for everyone. Let's try to refrain from personal attacks and degoratory remarks. For example, somebody isn't "stupid" because he questions the usefullness of something without having used it yet.



I assume this new jig must be able to accommodate the slightly rounded bevels (on both sides) that Boggs says he prefers in the video link above. 

Anybody know for sure?

TIA


----------



## Cottonwood

CStanford":2rfqdp07 said:


> I assume this new jig must be able to accommodate the slightly rounded bevels (on both sides) that Boggs says he prefers in the video link above.
> 
> Anybody know for sure?
> 
> TIA


You would need to consult Mr Boggs to find out. Seeing as the device has straight and cylinderical bars for the sharpening, it seems unlikkely it would be any use to create anything but a microtome-like (scandinavian knife) type bevvel. 



David C":2rfqdp07 said:


> I am simply astonished that so many people who are not full time users of draw knives, are so dismissive of this nicely made guide.



:-s I would still be dismissive of this gadget even if it was crudely made.


----------



## woodbrains

Cottonwood":3cnpepuu said:


> LOL you mean-we have to accept as gospel anything a proffessional says?? :shock:
> What on earth was or is wrong with B Boggs's original nifty and efficient method (on video, no gadget except brown paper to stop grit dust getting onto shave horse) and how would this new gadget improve things bearing in mind he uses rounded bevvels to the draw knife?



Hello,

No one has to believe anything anyone says, professional or not. But since Brian Boggs' work is of the highest order, he makes a living at doing so and has done so successfully for a long time, anything he does say is likely to be worth accepting as a very good endorsement. Alternatively, those opinions that come from largely non chair making, very occasional drawknife using commentators, who have not seen nor tried the device in question, can be held in absolutely no regard, whatsoever. And just to clarify; I have not called anyone stupid, but contending that something is not worthwhile without any experience of the thing in question, in light of some who have experienced it and find it does have worth, can only be described as stupid. I cannot see how it could be anything else.

Mike.


----------



## Cottonwood

woodbrains":blsvxl2y said:


> Cottonwood":blsvxl2y said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL you mean-we have to accept as gospel anything a proffessional says?? :shock:
> What on earth was or is wrong with B Boggs's original nifty and efficient method (on video, no gadget except brown paper to stop grit dust getting onto shave horse) and how would this new gadget improve things bearing in mind he uses rounded bevvels to the draw knife?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> No one has to believe anything anyone says, professional or not. But since Brian Boggs' work is of the highest order, he makes a living at doing so and has done so successfully for a long time, anything he does say is likely to be worth accepting as a very good endorsement. Alternatively, those opinions that come from largely non chair making, very occasional drawknife using commentators, who have not seen nor tried the device in question, can be held in absolutely no regard, whatsoever. And just to clarify; I have not called anyone stupid, but contending that something is not worthwhile without any experience of the thing in question, in light of some who have experienced it and find it does have worth, can only be described as stupid. I cannot see how it could be anything else.
> 
> Mike.
Click to expand...


There might have been something in what you said-assuming that is that up until now there was no way to get a razor sharp draw knife using a normal stone. But many people have done so, including B Boggs himself. He demonstarates it on a video (see above) And if that method is now redundant and surpassed by the new gadget, then that video should be removed :lol: 
As I said earlier I know how to sharpen my draw knife, I do so regularly and it is razor sharp. Do you use a drawknife a lot?
LOL There is no way I am going to buy a useless gadget "on the off chance" it might be useful

BTW no one has yet commented on the fact that Mr Boggs uses rounded bevels to the draw knife (I know its frowned upon by the experts such as yourself). I use them as well, the said gadget would be NO USE AT ALL to get rounded bevels, in fact it would ruin the bevel geometry on a draw knife that had carefully set up round bevvels....although admittedly it WOULD produce an excellent flat scandi bevel, can you see that Mike? Sometimes you dont need to buy,touch, feel or use something to know it will be of no use to you.... :roll:


----------



## Jacob

The fact is he is just another woodwork media circus man trying to sell, er, anything, and supporting his fellow circus vendors. Doesn't mean it's crappe necessarily but there's a lot of it about and you have to be pretty "objective" (cynical). Especially as they endlessly repeat the message of how difficult things are unless you buy x, y, z.
Can't wait to see the LV MK4 jig!

PS rounded bevels!!! I'm surprised his union allows it!


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

Please find me one comment I made where I say it is wrong to have rounded bevels. you wont, because i never have. Also,a rounded bevel on a drawknife is not the same as rounded bevels on a plane iron. STOP making up things I never said and then arguing the opposite. I have said why I don't like rounded bevels on a plane iron, with reasons, but never said it was wrong per se.

If the jig has no use to you personally, it still has a use which others may well benefit. (The tool clearly is fit for purpose and does what it claims) This is not the same thing as being useless. It seems not having a use for a thing equates to the thing being no good, or a cynical marketing ploy to some, which is clearly wrong. Just don't buy it if you don't want it. Choice is a good thing. Ironically, the times when I and others have opposed tools which have not been fit for purpose and are badly made and will not meet expectations, the usual suspects sing out in its defence. (Re. Bevel edged chisel that had no bevels to speak of, and an unusable handle) I think there is arguing for the sake of it, to the detriment of consistency. I, at least am consistent.

Mike.


----------



## David C

"C shows an edge that is "rounded" , due to inexperienced whetting, and caused by rocking the iron on the oilstone (see whetting the iron).

Hampton is referring to plane irons. The above quote comes from my 1959 edition, which was first publishecd in 1934.

What a great word whetting is.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Jacob

David C":wl7ujz8g said:


> "C shows an edge that is "rounded" , due to inexperienced whetting, and caused by rocking the iron on the oilstone (see whetting the iron).


Rounding over is bad (increases the cutting angle) but rounding under is perfectly OK. Hampton wouldn't go in to too much detail as the book is cautiously written for amateurs - "the amateur and the younger professional" I seem to recall. Doesn't do to overload with information!

It's funny that everybody has got hung up on the rounded bevel issue - it seems mainly down to misunderstanding texts and advice for amateurs.
Time you moved on a bit Dave, instead of banging on endlessly about something you read in an old DIY book from the 30s!


----------



## woodbrains

David C":1haooyvo said:


> "C shows an edge that is "rounded" , due to inexperienced whetting, and caused by rocking the iron on the oilstone (see whetting the iron).
> 
> Hampton is referring to plane irons. The above quote comes from my 1959 edition, which was first publishecd in 1934.
> 
> What a great word whetting is.
> 
> David Charlesworth



Hello,

Did you find this reference for me, David? My post refers to a quote I might have said before, since I keep getting accused of saying they are wrong, but I don't think I ever did. It is the usual case of having words put into ones mouth and then being argued on how wrong you are ! I suppose you _could_ sharpen with rounded bevels, but the whole thing is, rounded bevels on a plane iron is NOT the same as a rounded bevel on a carving gouge, drawknife or turning gouge. It is often claimed that rounding the bevel on the latter three is acceptable, (a turning tool will have a concave bevel, of course), therefore it must be on the plane. I'm afraid that is like saying lions eat meat, therefore meat will make a good meal for a lamb; they are all mammals, after all. This is the sort of poor logic that gets us nowhere fast on these forums. The latter 3 tools use the bevel as a guide, you 'ride on the bevel' in use. It is a function of the tools use. For planes, rounding the bevel is a sharpening expedient, nothing more. The plane does not require it to function. It may well function all the same, but it is not why it is done.

Now it may not be necessary for some to know the angle of the plane irons bevel. But for some it is, so a flat bevel or a secondary bevel IS useful for those people. I like to know as I like to vary the EP of the planes I use. A guess is not good enough, but a jig will allow me to know and vary the angles by small amounts until I get the result I require. Those who don't need to know, fine, but other ways are useful to those who want to understand a bit more about the cutting edges they produce and use.

Mike.


----------



## G S Haydon

Heaven knows why I'm going to post on this but hey ho! Right, rounded bevels work, period! Secondary bevels work, period! Which one do I like, secondary. Why? Beacuse it's quicker for me. 
I bought a new Irwin Bluechip as I was interested to find out how long it takes to get a chisel ready from new. Boy it was quick, back was prepped on a hard Arkansas, the blade was as I prefer, hollow in its length so the area behind the cutting edge was where the honing was focused, the factory marks were soon removed by the fine abrasive as it was working on a small area, about 60 seconds. Flipped it over onto the factory 25 deg bevel lifted 5 deg or so and lightly honed keeping a steady hand, burr was raised and removed briskly. To me this was so quick because the fine abrasive was working on such a small area. I see this as a huge advantage, a fine abrasive on a small area. I did not need a piece of glass from the dumpster/skip and loads of abrasive sheets tearing as I wnet or any similar faffing about. I did not have to work the whole bevel to hone which would take more time. 
I think also just becuse there are hollow oilstones and convex bevels does not mean that historically that everyone was doing it, they were not. Sure, some did just not all. It is laid down in a great deal of text that a secondary bevel is an advantage, flat stones are an advantage. The people wrting this stuff were not and are not fools.
Similary please don't take that as convex bevels are wrong or those using them are fools, they work just fine, they are a valid method and it would seem essential for some tools. I just find that a secondary bevel is sooooooooooooo quick for simple edge tools like chisels. C'mon Jacob you silly sausage, it's not just DIY books from the 30's its just about all the books on the subject . One thing is for sure the quality of the work produced from a convex or secondary bevel is of the same standard, the person driving it after it's sharpened is the more important issue.


----------



## Jacob

woodbrains":2nhc57ca said:


> ..... For planes, rounding the bevel is a sharpening expedient, nothing more. The plane does not require it to function. It may well function all the same, but it is not why it is done......


Exactly what I have been saying for years. The rounded bevel is a sharpening expedient and neither aids nor detracts from the cutting action of any of the tools mentioned, as long as the edge is maintained at 30º ish.
If you want to see how expedient it is watch Sellers' sharpening vid. It's just quick and easy.
Glad we've cleared that one up!

PS not sure why _"a turning tool will have a concave bevel"_. I see no reason for this as they also work perfectly well with flat or convex bevels.

PPS re _The people writing this stuff were not and are not fools._ true but they were writing for the uninformed (almost by definition) and would be inclined to describe "correct" methods suitable for beginners. Do as a I say not as I do.


----------



## G S Haydon

JacobPPS re [i:3g6be3u7 said:


> The people writing this stuff were not and are not fools.[/i] true but they were writing for the uninformed (almost by definition) and would be inclined to describe "correct" methods suitable for beginners. Do as a I say not as I do.



You cheeky devil :lol:. I'm not sure Ellis et al were writing for the uninformed, they were documenting I would assume common practice and the text would most likely be a companion to an apprentice. I don't imagine for one second George thought "Tell you what lads, don't tell em about the old hollow oil stone trick". Please do remember that a convex bevel is just fine, Mr Sellers method is fine and appropriate too but it's not _that_quick or special really. I'm just not convinced by the body of evidence that says everyone was working on hollow stones with convex bevels.


----------



## woodbrains

Jacob":zag0qimn said:


> PS not sure why _"a turning tool will have a concave bevel"_. I see no reason for this as they also work perfectly well with flat bevel or a convex one.



Hello,

A turning tool will work with a flat bevel, though there will be control issues with a convex one, you could do it. Since the work will be round, the bevel contact is best with a concave and easiest to do on a grinding wheel. A flat will work on a drawknife also.

This is not the point I was making, though, but that a bevel is the tool's control mechanism as with drawknife and carving gouge. The bevel on a plane is not, so using the example of the former to justify rounded bevels on planes cannot be made.

G S Haydon makes a good argument for short secodary bevels, which I prefer. Jigs are optional ( as I have always said) but can be handy in some situations. If you don't need one, al well and good. But don't say they are useless, I don't think there is another way of successfully honing, for example, a 20 degree bevel and 10 degree back bevel without one. Again, you might not want to, but those who do have good reason, so dismissing all jigs as useless or unnecessary is narrow minded.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob

I'm just saying they most likely weren't that bothered and all this strict "correctness" is new. 
Ellis & co weren't "documenting" they were writing instructional books. Documenting as such is rare - Sturt etc not many of them about. I've been reading "From Tree to Sea" - _that_ is documenting. (Thanks to Bugbear for the recommendation).


----------



## Jacob

woodbrains":3b1dt48k said:


> Jacob":3b1dt48k said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS not sure why _"a turning tool will have a concave bevel"_. I see no reason for this as they also work perfectly well with flat bevel or a convex one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> A turning tool will work with a flat bevel, though there will be control issues with a convex one, you could do it. Since the work will be round, the bevel contact is best with a concave and easiest to do on a grinding wheel. ....
Click to expand...

Logical of course but not what you experience in practice. If you sharpen on the flat (e.g. Sorby Pro edge) you won't have any problem with sharpening or control issues with turning. It's all imaginary.


> This is not the point I was making, though, but that a bevel is the tool's control mechanism as with drawknife and carving gouge. The bevel on a plane is not, so using the example of the former to justify rounded bevels on planes cannot be made.


You haven't read my previous post.


> G S Haydon makes a good argument for short secodary bevels, which I prefer. Jigs are optional ( as I have always said) but can be handy in some situations. If you don't need one, al well and good. But don't say they are useless, I don't think there is another way of successfully honing, for example, a 20 degree bevel and 10 degree back bevel without one.


Depends how precise you want to be but for normal purposes this simply would not be problem freehand. 
Problems problems - it's all we hear! Everything is such a problem, you can't do this, that won't work, so-and-so wrote in 1934 such-and-such so it must be true, reference surfaces, control problems. I'm so glad I got away from the new sharpening madness and can actually do it without giving it much thought or effort. Head down brain off for me everyday!


----------



## David C

Not the NEW sharpening again.

When did it become new?


----------



## Corneel

Hi Graham,

I wonder, how do you maintain the primary bevel? I use a grinder, but I am not entirely happy with that. It seems Jacobs convex bevel technique is mostly about maintaining the main part of the bevel, while the actual edge is sharpened at a slightly higher angle (please correct me when I am wrong Jacob). Like you Graham, I kind of wonder how that is faster then keeping the primary bevel flat.

Sharpening a chisel straight from the grinder is indeed very simple and very fast, either using the hollow or with a secondairy bevel. But it gets more complicated in the long run, when the secondairy grows and you need to adress the wearbevel at the face of the chisel too. Like I said, I use the grinder for this, but really want more peace in my little workshop.


----------



## G S Haydon

Jacob":15l5zor7 said:


> I'm just saying they most likely weren't that bothered and all this strict "correctness" is new.
> Ellis & co weren't "documenting" they were writing instructional books. Documenting as such is rare - Sturt etc not many of them about. I've been reading "From Tree to Sea" - _that_ is documenting. (Thanks to Bugbear for the recommendation).



I don't see it as "correctness" at all Jacob, I see what's written as version of say Paul Sellers method, just a pro sharing how they got a good edge. there were doubtless variations on a theme like you rightly point out.


----------



## Racers

There is no right or wrong way to sharpen, as long as you get a sharp edge.

Simple isn't it :roll: 


Pete


----------



## G S Haydon

Corneel":3n0clisr said:


> Hi Graham,
> 
> I wonder, how do you maintain the primary bevel? I use a grinder, but I am not entirely happy with that. It seems Jacobs convex bevel technique is mostly about maintaining the main part of the bevel, while the actual edge is sharpened at a slightly higher angle (please correct me when I am wrong Jacob). Like you Graham, I kind of wonder how that is faster then keeping the primary bevel flat.
> 
> Sharpening a chisel straight from the grinder is indeed very simple and very fast, either using the hollow or with a secondairy bevel. But it gets more complicated in the long run, when the secondairy grows and you need to adress the wearbevel at the face of the chisel too. Like I said, I use the grinder for this, but really want more peace in my little workshop.



Corneel,

I too feel the noise of a grinder is a nuisance. I watched a quick Lee-Nielsen vid on redoing the Primary bevel which I thought looked quite time consuming with all of the sandpaper used although it is a perfectly decent way of doing it. So to avoid all that sandpaper I used the coarse side of an India stone with and Eclipse jig and I was pleased with how very quickly the primary bevel was redone. That said on an old fashioned wooden plane blade I found a grinder quicker. I can imagine the next comment which is well use the jig for honing too, which is completely valid and FWIW it's splitting hairs on time. I just like having a fine oil stone close which I can use at a moments notice a nice way to work and creates confidence. Other equally valid methods are available! :lol:


----------



## G S Haydon

Racers":7f6s2sjq said:


> There is no right or wrong way to sharpen, as long as you get a sharp edge.
> 
> Simple isn't it :roll:
> 
> 
> Pete



Agreed!


----------



## Jacob

Corneel":3ozhs3uu said:


> Hi Graham,
> 
> I wonder, how do you maintain the primary bevel? I use a grinder, but I am not entirely happy with that. It seems Jacobs convex bevel technique is mostly about maintaining the main part of the bevel, while the actual edge is sharpened at a slightly higher angle (please correct me when I am wrong Jacob). Like you Graham, I kind of wonder how that is faster then keeping the primary bevel flat.


Mainly because as you dip the handle you can thrust harder and put some force behind it, as you are only removing the bevel back from the edge and don't need to be cautious as you would have to be to maintain a flat bevel - all that stuff about locked elbows, stances etc. goes out of the window. Also you are maintaining the shape _every time_ you hone/sharpen so there is no need to ever got to the grindstone to correct it until you chip it etc. _The secondary doesn't grow_, to use a bit of new sharpening speak!


> Sharpening a chisel straight from the grinder is indeed very simple and very fast, either using the hollow or with a secondairy bevel. But it gets more complicated in the long run, when the secondairy grows and you need to adress the wearbevel at the face of the chisel too. Like I said, I use the grinder for this, but really want more peace in my little workshop.


I don't use one at all for sharpening - just for the occasional bit of metal work on damaged edges, or reshaping, if I decide I want more camber for instance.


----------



## G S Haydon

Since taking a stepping back I do now actually enjoy theses threads.


----------



## Corneel

Thanks Graham and Jacob. I'm going to experiment a bit in my shop.


----------



## bugbear

G S Haydon":dpk2lx72 said:


> You cheeky devil :lol:. I'm not sure Ellis et al were writing for the uninformed, they were documenting I would assume common practice and the text would most likely be a companion to an apprentice. I don't imagine for one second George thought "Tell you what lads, don't tell em about the old hollow oil stone trick".



No - I see it now! the scales have fallen from my eyes.

Jacob has revealed the existence of The Traditional Sharpening Cabal (TSC), who are probably connected with the Masons (who also need to sharpen their tools - cooincidence? I think not) and the Knights Templar, as well as darker groups I will not speak of here.

This organisation is dedicated to keeping the true technique of traditional sharpening secret, and they brook no back sliding, and will stop at nothing to keep their secret.

Since traditional sharpening, as revealed by Jacob (which I shall call Butler Random Rubbing, or BRR in his honour) must be kept from the masses, all authors are either members of the TSC, or are leant on by TSC heavies. In any case, the TSC have enough leverage with publishers that *no book revealing BRR has ever been published*.

The conspiracy goes back a long way; even Peter Nicholson in 1831 is starting to tell the TSC big lie - he talks of grindstones, even hollow grinding, and witters on about a steeper bevel when honing than grinding (the "double bevel" system put up as a distraction by the TSC).

Charles Holtzapffel (1843) mentions a "second bevel", further concealing BRR, but attempts to bolster credibility by putting this rubbish in a massive three volume publication that is _otherwise quite reasonable_.

Spons mechanics companion is the first book that goes so far as attempt to throw people even further off the scent of BRR by explicting stating that the hands should *not move up and down, creating a thick or rounded bevel*.

After this, the TSC moves into overdrive, since the home worker was starting up in sheds up and down the land, and they might have stumbled on the secret of BRR. Therefore, guided (perhaps unknowingly, so subtle are they) by the TSC, author after author (some with great experience of both practice and instruction) distracted readers with the TSC party line, of grinding bevels, distinct and higher honing bevels, and the difficulty (and yet desirability) of not rounding the bevel.

I can only assume the true technique of BRR was passed on by members of the TSC, possible involving rolled up trouser legs and aprons.

The continuance of the power of the TSC knows no bonds. Even Joyce as late as the seventies not only mentions that avoiding round bevels is _difficult_ (and implies that it is _desirable_). He goes so far as to say that a [jig] might be a "useful accessory". Some members of the TSC may have felt this simply went too far, since such absurdity might arouse suspicion.

And thus it might have continued, until Jacob Butler, that fearless teller of Truth Unto Power revealed all.

BugBear (at risk, now the secret is public)


----------



## mark w

Thank you Bugbear, I don`t believe they were or are hiding Jacobs method of sharpening from us, more like protecting us from it!


----------



## Jacob

A great deal of stuff is not particularly recorded but is not secret at all. The problem seems to be with those insist on seeing it in writing first instead of finding out for themselves. Bugbear is particularly weak on this as he doesn't believe anything he hasn't read about. See that stupid firewood trick thread. :lol: post813078.html?hilit=billhook#p813078
Most people neither need nor are given any instruction in sharpening because it is so bloody obvious how to do it. It's just got complicated with all the new boys wading in with minutely detailed prescriptions and remedies and dozens of unhelpful gadgets. Too many options and the baby thrown out with the bathwater!
Here are 2 questions:
how do you sharpen a rounded bevel mortice chisel? (which everybody seems to agree is how it should be done)
Why would this not work with any other chisel or edge?


----------



## Tony Spear

bugbear":2tvprhre said:


> G S Haydon":2tvprhre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob has revealed the existence of The Traditional Sharpening Cabal (TSC), who are probably connected with the Masons (who also need to sharpen their tools - cooincidence? I think not) and the Knights Templar, as well as darker groups I will not speak of here.
> 
> BugBear (at risk, now the secret is public)
Click to expand...


Now you've really done it - letting the cat out of the bag!

The "Hellfire Club" was nothing to do with Sir Francis Dashwood and their "naughty" behaviour.

They were secret meetings of all the Wycombe chairmakers arguing about sharpening drawknives and spokeshaves!


----------



## Jacob

Had a quick look at Ellis. He doesn't say much about sharpening. No mention of grindstones, hollow grinding, no reference to angles. He does warn about rounding over, quite right too, but this doesn't preclude rounding under as per Sellers etc.
It was a lot easier in the old days! People found out how to do it by doing it and seeing the results in the actual workplace. silly person stuff really, I don't why it causes so much bother nowadays.
I think the way I sharpen is roughly how anybody work it out, if they had to without instruction. It's the instructions which cause the confusion! It's as though everybody knew (or could find) the way around but some idiots have printed out maps which are wrong - and everybody has started getting lost.


----------



## Paul Chapman

Jacob":23wdc3qc said:


> how do you sharpen a rounded bevel mortice chisel? (which everybody seems to agree is how it should be done)



You speak for yourself - I don't agree that mortice chisels should have rounded bevels.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Racers

There are only two ways, Jacobs way and the wrong way :roll: :roll: :roll: 

Pete


----------



## G S Haydon

You are right Jacob, there is not a great deal of really, really in depth writing in many of the old books. From my point of view this is potentially due to many of these books acting as a companion to an apprentice? 
I can only speculate but I think P Sellers trained as a joiner? And I'm sure he learned a system from his senior tradesmen that was very effective, nothing wrong in that.
What Ellis does mention I think is the fine types of stones for honing such as Turkey, Arkansas et al. Using these to hone the whole bevel would indeed work but perhaps take longer than focusing effort on a secondary bevel. P Sellers mentions in a recent vid did use a fine india in the early days which would cut very fast and working on whole bevel would not take so long. I just like being able to focus a finer abrasive on a smaller area rather than working it on the whole bevel. There is no need to waste nice fine abrasives on metal which is a long way from the cutting edge, unless you want to of course!


----------



## Jacob

G S Haydon":1vq4vlib said:


> You are right Jacob, there is not a great deal of really, really in depth writing in many of the old books. From my point of view this is potentially due to many of these books acting as a companion to an apprentice?


Due to it being a simple subject with no need to say very much!


> ...
> What Ellis does mention I think is the fine types of stones for honing such as Turkey, Arkansas et al. ....


Brief paragraph. Before Norton India I presume.


----------



## Cottonwood

This shows why I use a convex rounded bevvel on a draw knife



On these few cuts I used a largish sloyd knife (22mm wide-about the same as my draw knife), ground scandi flat, like a microtome, a perfect flat wedge shape. Being finnish steel, it has a very durable edge retension that doesnt easiliy turn. Any way, it is fine for most cuts-but fails on small concave radiuses, it tends to produce chatter marks as in this example. A slight rounding to the bevvel (convex) elinimates this problem. My draw knife is set up convex as is one of my mora knives, specially for tight areas like on spoons and ladles where you are blending facets into a smoother form.


----------



## Paul Chapman

Jacob said:


> Due to it being a simple subject with no need to say very much!
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I can't believe you just said that, Jacob :shock: :lol:
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul
Click to expand...


----------



## G S Haydon

I think so, some books I have from the 30's mention the India, not sure exactly when they were used widely but this would suggest the uptake was between 1902>1930's 
I think many of the modern sources are actually useful for a great many, by that I mean a jig. One thing that strikes me when working on my hobby projects is the lack of time I have. For those coming to the craft very wet behind the ears a jig gives confidence and allows people to get results quickly and easily. Many like them so much they stay with them. Many experience people like them too. Yes they have limits but for many edge tools they do give a very repeatable may of working which in itself can inspire confidence. So very cheap to buy as well, an Eclipse copy is peanuts to buy.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":ncw9djun said:


> Had a quick look at Ellis. He doesn't say much about sharpening. No mention of grindstones, hollow grinding, no reference to angles. He does warn about rounding over, quite right too, but this doesn't preclude rounding under as per Sellers etc.



Hmm. Let's look at the real Ellis.



Ellis 1908":ncw9djun said:


> To Sharpen the iron - Place a few drops of sweet oil on the oilstone, and
> grasping the iron firmly in the right hand, with the palm downwards, apply it to
> the stone at an angle about halfway between that of the grinding basil and the
> pitch of the iron when in the plane. Rub it to and fro nearly the length of the
> stone, pressing the edge firmly down with the fingers of the left hand. Endeavour
> to keep the top end of the iron moving in a line parallel with the face of [the]
> stone, which will produce a flat bevel. An undulating motion must be avoided,
> as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding. After
> rubbing the back for a couple of minutes, turn it over with the face held
> quite flat on the stone, and give it a slight rub to remove the wire edge. Take care not
> to put any bevel upon this side. Wipe off the oil with shavings and buff the edge
> by drawing it across the palm of the left hand in backwards strokes, turning the
> left hand over on each side of the iron. Examine the edge; when held to the
> light it should be invisible, or it may be tested by gently applying the ball
> of the thumb in a sliding motion across the edge, when if sharp, it will be felt
> to grip the skin.



BugBear


----------



## CStanford

bugbear":14lnhhjd said:


> Jacob":14lnhhjd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had a quick look at Ellis. He doesn't say much about sharpening. No mention of grindstones, hollow grinding, no reference to angles. He does warn about rounding over, quite right too, but this doesn't preclude rounding under as per Sellers etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Let's look at the real Ellis.
> 
> 
> 
> Ellis 1908":14lnhhjd said:
> 
> 
> 
> To Sharpen the iron - Place a few drops of sweet oil on the oilstone, and
> grasping the iron firmly in the right hand, with the palm downwards, apply it to
> the stone at an angle about halfway between that of the grinding basil and the
> pitch of the iron when in the plane. Rub it to and fro nearly the length of the
> stone, pressing the edge firmly down with the fingers of the left hand. Endeavour
> to keep the top end of the iron moving in a line parallel with the face of [the]
> stone, which will produce a flat bevel. An undulating motion must be avoided,
> as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding. After
> rubbing the back for a couple of minutes, turn it over with the face held
> quite flat on the stone, and give it a slight rub to remove the wire edge. Take care not
> to put any bevel upon this side. Wipe off the oil with shavings and buff the edge
> by drawing it across the palm of the left hand in backwards strokes, turning the
> left hand over on each side of the iron. Examine the edge; when held to the
> light it should be invisible, or it may be tested by gently applying the ball
> of the thumb in a sliding motion across the edge, when if sharp, it will be felt
> to grip the skin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


That's the passage but it's important to note that an undulating movement will cause the honing angle to grow. In Jacob's method the push starts at the desired angle and steadily decreases as the cutter is pushed to the end of the stone. This keeps the angle from growing. It doesn't "undulate" which is what tends to happen by grinding at, say 25*, and attempting to lift the cutter a few degrees and move it randomly around on the stone. Jacob's is a purposeful movement designed to thwart the angle from growing.

I have to say, it works.


----------



## bugbear

CStanford":2fnfoyem said:


> bugbear":2fnfoyem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":2fnfoyem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had a quick look at Ellis. He doesn't say much about sharpening. No mention of grindstones, hollow grinding, no reference to angles. He does warn about rounding over, quite right too, but this doesn't preclude rounding under as per Sellers etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Let's look at the real Ellis.
> 
> 
> 
> Ellis 1908":2fnfoyem said:
> 
> 
> 
> To Sharpen the iron - Place a few drops of sweet oil on the oilstone, and
> grasping the iron firmly in the right hand, with the palm downwards, apply it to
> the stone at an angle about halfway between that of the grinding basil and the
> pitch of the iron when in the plane. Rub it to and fro nearly the length of the
> stone, pressing the edge firmly down with the fingers of the left hand. Endeavour
> to keep the top end of the iron moving in a line parallel with the face of [the]
> stone, which will produce a flat bevel. An undulating motion must be avoided,
> as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding. After
> rubbing the back for a couple of minutes, turn it over with the face held
> quite flat on the stone, and give it a slight rub to remove the wire edge. Take care not
> to put any bevel upon this side. Wipe off the oil with shavings and buff the edge
> by drawing it across the palm of the left hand in backwards strokes, turning the
> left hand over on each side of the iron. Examine the edge; when held to the
> light it should be invisible, or it may be tested by gently applying the ball
> of the thumb in a sliding motion across the edge, when if sharp, it will be felt
> to grip the skin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BugBear
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's the passage but it's important to note that an undulating movement will cause the honing angle to grow. In Jacob's method the push starts at the desired angle and steadily decreases as the cutter is pushed to the end of the stone. This keeps the angle from growing. It doesn't "undulate" which is what tends to happen by grinding at, say 25*, and attempting to lift the cutter a few degrees and move it randomly around on the stone. Jacob's is a purposeful movement designed to thwart the angle from growing.
> 
> I have to say, it works.
Click to expand...


I make no present comment on the efficacy of BRR (that's been copiously covered in previous threads).

The point at hand is that, effective (or not) it is not the traditional way, about which we have much evidence, due to the efforts of the TSC.  

BugBear


----------



## G S Haydon

"That's the passage but it's important to note that an undulating movement will cause the honing angle to grow. In Jacob's method the push starts at the desired angle and steadily decreases as the cutter is pushed to the end of the stone. This keeps the angle from growing. It doesn't "undulate" which is what tends to happen by grinding at, say 25*, and attempting to lift the cutter a few degrees and move it randomly around on the stone. Jacob's is a purposeful movement designed to thwart the angle from growing.

I have to say, it works."

Too true! I think it's fair to assume some might of used this method before fast cutting India stones but it was most likely easier done on a fast cutting stone like an India which are relatively new recent in terms or woodworking.
My gut, experience and written evidence is more suggestive of secondary bevels as the most common method used back in the day.


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":rsa1bs41 said:


> ......
> The point at hand is that, effective (or not) it is not the traditional way, about which we have much evidence, due to the efforts of the TSC.
> 
> BugBear


You can be certain that if it works and is simple, it would be a (the) traditional way. I really don't think that after thousands of years of edge tool use I personally have discovered a better way of sharpening. These simple processes aren't waiting to be discovered but have been forgotten (like that firewood trick post813078.html?hilit=billhook#p813078) or simply overwritten by the new sharpeners - info derived (but misunderstood) from a few scanty texts..


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Just a thought about relative speed of sharpening for the convex bevel on a stone method, and the ground primary honed secondary method.

Two identical chisels used for the same work by good craftsmen who fully use, but don't abuse their tools will require the same number of sharpenings over a given time - say a month, or so. The dull edge will the same for both chisels since they are used for the same work by similar craftsmen, so both will require the same amount of metal to be removed to restore a good working edge. One chisel is sharpened by convex bevel on honing stones, one by ground primary, honed secondary.

Grinding is a much faster process of metal removal than honing. Both chisels will require the same amount of metal to be removed over the month. It therefore follows that the chisel ground and honed will be restored to working condition in less overall time than the one abraded on hand hones. In other words, less time will be spent sharpening by using the faster metal removal technique of grinding to remove as much as possible, leaving only a little work to be done by honing. Honing all the metal off, even on a coarse stone, must take longer than grinding it off.

Why did people use convex bevel hand-only sharpening then? Well, just speculating, but what do you do if you're working somewhere without easy access to grinding equipment - on site, say; or in a small workshop in which the owner can't afford to install grinding equipment? You do the best with what you have, or can easily obtain.

I would respectfully suggest that if suitable grinding equipment is readily available, most craftsmen will use it if it saves them time and effort. They will expend as little time on sharpening as they can sensibly get away with, and will only do gross metal removal on bench stones if they have no other option. Hence the references in the literature to 'ground basils' and honing at a slightly higher angle.


----------



## G S Haydon

Yep, that's my take on it. Just to stress again convex bevels are great and work just fine. I just don't want to work the whole bevel each time on a fine abrasive, it takes a little longer.


----------



## bugbear

Cheshirechappie":1q7on6b1 said:


> Hence the references in the literature to 'ground basils' and honing at a slightly higher angle.



Indeed - the evidential rock on which Jacob's recent certainties are doomed to founder.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

> Yep, that's my take on it. Just to stress again convex bevels are great and work just fine. I just don't want to work the whole bevel each time on a fine abrasive, it takes a little longer.


So do as per Sellers - three stones coarse to fine, and stropping! A bit excessive IMHO.

And yes in fact large wet grind stones are relatively rare but no doubt would be used where available. Not essential by any means. 
But the big problem is the dry bench grindstone - we were taught that they were unsuitable for sharpening - too fast, too hot, too difficult to get a nice clean edge, too small diameter (hollow ground is weaker the smaller the diameter).
I think they should be avoided, especially by beginners.
In any case a simple system based on one double sided stone is obviously a good default fall-back and should be mastered by everybody.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":1er5tj4r said:


> You can be certain that if it works and is simple, it would be a (the) traditional way.



So it comes down to - _you_ think it's the best way, therefore other people back in time _would hav_e thought it was the best way, therefore they _would have_ adopted it, therefore they _did_ adopt it, therefore it's _traditional_.

In a way I admire that theory - it's truly remarkable.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":3r56mo48 said:


> Jacob":3r56mo48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can be certain that if it works and is simple, it would be a (the) traditional way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it comes down to - _you_ think it's the best way, therefore other people back in time _would hav_e thought it was the best way, therefore they _would have_ adopted it, therefore they _did_ adopt it, therefore it's _traditional_.
> 
> In a way I admire that theory - it's truly remarkable.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

Jeer as much as you like but I stand by what I said. People didn't have grindwheels available all over the place. Nobody at all had jigs not so long ago. How do you think they managed? You obviously have no idea. Did they just down tools and sulk?
I've been looking closely at trad work all my life and what is always impressive is the economy, simplicity and sheer practical intelligence at work, often with simple tools, intractable materials and difficult circumstances.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":3bu7st7h said:


> I've been looking closely at trad work all my life and what is always impressive is the economy, simplicity and sheer practical intelligence at work, often with simple tools, intractable materials and difficult circumstances.



(chuckle) You managed to have an entire career making sash windows with modern power tools without bothering to find out how they were made with hand tools - you didn't even know what a sash template was in 2011 (which again, is remarkable).

Your "looking closely at trad work all my life" must have been more of a fleeting glance.

BugBear


----------



## G S Haydon

I can only speak of what we had back in the day, this was perhaps the late 1970's.

More background on that here if you want to take a look http://thewoodhaven.co.uk/phpBB3/viewto ... 5&start=70


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":p755j3db said:


> Jacob":p755j3db said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been looking closely at trad work all my life and what is always impressive is the economy, simplicity and sheer practical intelligence at work, often with simple tools, intractable materials and difficult circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (chuckle) You managed to have an entire career making sash windows with modern power tools without bothering to find out how they were made with hand tools - you didn't even know what a sash template was in 2011 (which again, is remarkable).
> 
> Your "looking closely at trad work all my life" must have been more of a fleeting glance.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

Been digging in the archive again BB! 
I made the first few dozen (and a lot of other stuff) entirely by hand except for ripping with a bandsaw. Did bevels instead of mouldings as I didn't have any moulding planes. Bevels look surprisingly good and from a distance you don't miss the mouldings - this is fairly common in trad windows but doesn't always get noticed. And of course a lot of hand work throughout even after getting machines. 
Er, I'm not sure what a sash template is still - some sort of gadget no doubt, which one can do without.
Have another go BB. How is your woodwork getting on? Made anything lately? Or ever? :lol:

PS spotted a sash template, there are other ways of making a neat scribe on the glazing bar crossover:




Apologies to other readers for having this troll following me about.


----------



## G S Haydon

I must confess Jacob here in the South West it is very rare to find anything made before WW 2 that had anything but Ovlo or Lambs Tongue mouldings. Bevels can work very well indeed and I often think with single glazed windows, with the condensation issues it seems logical to throw the water off. Forgive me BB, I don't know what a sash template is!


----------



## Corneel

This is from Nicholson, Mechanic's companion...
This describes exactly my sharpening regime at the moment. And in fact, I've never read something else then similar stuff.

Not to say the convex bevel wasn't used a lot also. Trying to maintane a flat bevel freehand isn't very easy and you end up with a convexity anyhow. I do think, convex bevels are better on thin irons, becuase you don't need to remove so much steel, and the thin iron's bevel doesn't have the same stable footprint. On a thick woody plane iron you would need to remove a lot of metal on each sharpening? Well, I'm gona try it out for myself when I have a bit of time.


----------



## G S Haydon

Corneel, agreed, I think thin plane irons lend themselves well to honing the whole bevel.


----------



## Jacob

G S Haydon":24jr6t5q said:


> I must confess Jacob here in the South West it is very rare to find anything made before WW 2 that had anything but Ovlo or Lambs Tongue mouldings. ....


Not common but they are certainly there. Unless you are a window fetishist like me they are easily overlooked. In fact the last proper sash I did was on the Chatsworth estate which copied the 18C originals which had bevels instead of mouldings. Thin 14mm glazing bars so quite slender and elegant.
The 10 large chapel windows I did here are also exact copies of a bevelled design.
I first ever noticed them at Plas yn Rhiw. Can't recall if they were all bevelled or just a few.


----------



## G S Haydon

Very nice Jacob! These type of conservation projects are lovely to be part of.


----------



## Jacob

G S Haydon":1wxs919i said:


> Very nice Jacob! These type of conservation projects are lovely to be part of.


I didn't work at Plas yn Rhiw I was just a visitor! But I have done period work in a lot of very nice old houses.


----------



## G S Haydon

Ah, sorry! Still nice to see quality joinery from back in the day.


----------



## AndyT

If anyone thinks they have read enough about sharpening but quite fancies learning a bit more about sash templates... get on over to the excellent "Hackney Tools" blog here: http://hackneytools.com/2013/08/how-to-use-sash-templates-or-templets/ and look for the dowloads.

Gary asked the right people and now has a copy of an article by Jane Rees (yes, the tool historian who is working on the next edition of "British Planemakers") which explains what types there were and something of how they would have been used. The article was published in the Journals of the Construction History Society and the Early American Industries Association, but has not been available in full online before. You can download it as a pdf.

I thought I had linked to this before, but a search shows that I hadn't - I hope people will think of it as a reward for staying with this thread as far as page 14!


----------



## G S Haydon

Andy that is a great link!


----------



## bugbear

AndyT":n5w05vtm said:


> If anyone thinks they have read enough about sharpening but quite fancies learning a bit more about sash templates... get on over to the excellent "Hackney Tools" blog here: http://hackneytools.com/2013/08/how-to-use-sash-templates-or-templets/ and look for the dowloads.
> 
> Gary asked the right people and now has a copy of an article by Jane Rees (yes, the tool historian who is working on the next edition of "British Planemakers") which explains what types there were and something of how they would have been used. The article was published in the Journals of the Construction History Society and the Early American Industries Association, but has not been available in full online before. You can download it as a pdf.
> 
> I thought I had linked to this before, but a search shows that I hadn't - I hope people will think of it as a reward for staying with this thread as far as page 14!



IIRC TATHS used to haul a full set of sash making hand tools around various shows, a while ago, as part of their "join us, we know interesting stuff" pitch.

BugBear


----------



## AndyT

Well, there certainly are TATHS members with specialist knowledge of such matters - some are also members of this forum!

BB, I'm a bit surprised you were not one of the founding members back in 1983, but it's not too late to join - http://www.taths.org.uk/

There is even a Facebook page for people who like that sort of thing - where you can see an interesting little video of Jane Rees talking about historical tools, amongst other good stuff https://www.facebook.com/TATHSoc - (There's no need to sign up to Facebook to see this.)


----------



## David C

Ellis "Examine the edge; when held to the
light it should be invisible, or it may be tested by gently applying the ball
of the thumb in a sliding motion across the edge, when if sharp, it will be felt
to grip the skin".

This is a great method. I was shown it 42 years ago. It is as well to have a rather horny thumb ! It gets mentioned every year but not necessarily recommended..........

Perhaps better at revealing bluntness?

David Charlesworth


----------



## mark w

Jacob I think the point Bugbear was trying to make with regard to the sash template was, you try to make out you know a great deal on a subject to the point of knowing everything when in fact you don`t, another example is your comment on Ellis when you said he doesn`t say much about sharpening, no mention of grindstones and then Bugbear pastes Ellis`s article which is fairly long and detailed and has reference to a grindstone! You couldn`t have been more wrong.
I`m quite convinced you sit in front of your computer all day watching this forum and quickly Google the chosen subject, swat up on it for 5 minutes and then post as though you are an expert on the subject and then when someone like Bugbear catches you out you simply ignore the point they are making.
Answer this question, which is easier to push into a piece of wood, a sharp chisel with a convex bevel or one with a concave bevel?


----------



## Jacob

mark w":2p4sbov0 said:


> Jacob I think the point Bugbear was trying to make with regard to the sash template was, you try to make out you know a great deal on a subject to the point of knowing everything when in fact you don`t,


I know what I know, no more no less and I don't try to pretend otherwise. I couldn't get away with it could I with my little archivist troll trailing after me day and night! :roll: 
Sash template is not something I've encountered, but in any case would be of little use to me as no window set is quite the same as another. I guess it would have been a tool found in large workshops with a big turnover producing the same design. I've no idea how common they were but they were not in any way essential, as I know from producing 100s of windows (period copies) without finding the need! PS I'm surprised BB believes they exist at all, as they don't feature in any of the holy texts!


> another example is your comment on Ellis when you said he doesn`t say much about sharpening, no mention of grindstones and then Bugbear pastes Ellis`s article which is fairly long and detailed and has reference to a grindstone! You couldn`t have been more wrong.


It _doesn't_ mention grindstones. Can you not read? It mentions "grinding basils" but in the absence of a wheel that'd be hand done on a flat stone. So I wasn't wrong. Have another look.
It isn't long and detailed either - about half a page on plane irons that's all, as compared to whole books and hours of DVDs from the orthodox brethren of new sharpeners!


> Answer this question, which is easier to push into a piece of wood, a sharp chisel with a convex bevel or one with a concave bevel?


The chisel which you would most likely "push into a piece of wood" is the mortice chisel which has a rounded bevel for a good reason. For most chiselly purposes it isn't going to make much difference, except an overly hollow grind is going to be more fragile.


> when someone like Bugbear catches you out you simply ignore the point they are making.


Weirder and weirder! 
The chances of being "caught out" by bugbear is very low, as far as I can tell he does no woodwork himself at all and gets it all (such as it is) from cruising the net and woodwork mags. Caught out doing what, fer crissake? Example please.
Basically he is just a troll, with nothing interesting to say but always seeking attention.


----------



## mark w

I think you do pretend Jacob, you were caught out in another thread when you made some reference to guitars, a person who really new the subject tried to put you right.
In bugbears text it says this "An undulating motion must be avoided,as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding". what is he grinding on if not a stone? Yes I can read.
The chisel you are most likely to push into a piece of wood is the paring chisel, you are far more likely to strike a mortice chisel with a hammer.
Not weird at all, and Bugbear has caught you out, can you read?


----------



## Racers

I think he believes he is infallible, and because he make things he is so much better than any one else on here.
Probably small man syndrome and overlooked middle child/only child syndrome.

Pete


----------



## Jacob

mark w":2plgmwr3 said:


> I think you do pretend Jacob, you were caught out in another thread when you made some reference to guitars, a person who really new the subject tried to put you right.


FFS I knew nothing about Fenders and was quoting something I'd read and somebody who knew more than me put me right. So what? Is that it then? What on odd and uninteresting little thing to remember. Do you have link? we could all go back for a second look and get really excited. Here it is post798586.html?hilit=fender#p798586


> In bugbears text it says this "An undulating motion must be avoided,as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding". what is he grinding on if not a stone? Yes I can read.


Oh I see. By "grindstone" I meant wheel. There's no mention of "grindstones" or "grind wheels" or hollow grinding etc etc.which is the obvious but trivial point I was making, which you have chosen to misunderstand .


> The chisel you are most likely to push into a piece of wood is the paring chisel, you are far more likely to strike a mortice chisel with a hammer.....


 :roll: What chisel would you use for splitting hairs?


----------



## Jacob

Racers":2mxij6bc said:


> I think he believes he is infallible, and because he make things he is so much better than any one else on here.
> Probably small man syndrome and overlooked middle child/only child syndrome.
> 
> Pete


Deeply fascinating as usual Pete. Where would we be without your unceasing wit and wisdom? Never a dull word. :roll: 
NB As a rule people who make things know more about making things than people who don't make things. Anybody, everybody, not just me.


----------



## Kalimna

Jacob - a chisel for splitting hairs? A microtome. 

Cheers,
Adam


----------



## Jacob

Rightho. Any sharpening hints?


----------



## Racers

bye Jacob.

Pete


----------



## Corneel

Hmmm, we're back at personal attacks again for no apparent reason. Can't you guys relax a bit, and keep the discussion to the pro's and con's of convex bevels (at this point in the thread)? I certainly don't always agree with Jacob either, but the attacks I see here are just childish.


----------



## Jacob

Just picked up another box of tatty old tools (accidental ebay bid after a few pints). Includes several planes 4s and some woodies. Looking at edges of these and previous mistaken purchases (I'll count them later, must be 30 or so) it has to be said that there are all sorts of rough grinding of primary bevels followed by neater honed secondary bevels, also many distinctly convex over all. 
NON AT ALL have the classic text book hollow grind with distinct honed edge, except one which is obviously ex factory and honed perhaps once. They all look hand-held sharpened (slightly untidy), not jigged
These are a random selection of planes from different sources, mostly well used which suggests experienced user.

I think the text book advice is good for getting people started on. Once they have it (and can repeat it) they can then relax and do awful convex bevels just like me! Or rough grinds like many of these. Whatever - as long as the edge is sharp and the process isn't holding up the work.
Text books are mostly for beginners, as are text book techniques.

PS just had another look - the factory fresh ones actually have flat bevels so none of the collection have concave bevels of any sort. It wasn't done - at least not by the several dozen old chaps who last used these planes


----------



## Racers

Mmmm us insulting Jacob! that makes a change.

Well he was before I put him on the ignore list.

Pete


----------



## Jacob

FFS If I'm on your ignore list why don't you ignore me instead of chipping in with pointless comments?


----------



## Racers

Bliss

Pete


----------



## Jacob

Jacob":15y9nflc said:


> ......
> I think the text book advice is good for getting people started on. Once they have it (and can repeat it) they can then relax and do awful convex bevels just like me! Or rough grinds like many of these. Whatever - as long as the edge is sharp and the process isn't holding up the work.
> Text books are mostly for beginners, as are text book techniques.


Sorry to be replying to myself but it occurred to me that the above is also true of sash windows and joinery design in general. Thanks for bringing up the subject up BB!
There are various textbook ways of doing sashes (vary from book to book, or same book different editions). In the field you find them done differently with all sorts of intelligent wheezes and wangles. If you come across a rare "text book" example it means it was done by someone _who didn't know how to do it_ and sensibly referred to a text book, as distinct from someone who hadn't the foggiest and just went ahead and made it up as he went along. Quite a lot of those out there!
Sharpening the same - text book if you aren't sure - when you get the hang of it you go your own way. Except for the modern texts of course, which wrongly advise the use of jigs and introduce a whole new set of problems!
That's it then - the end of the road on this long debate as far as I am concerned. Nothing more to say - except to repeat myself ad infinitum!*

*Shall I start now or wait for a cue? :lol:


----------



## Tony Spear

Good Lord - all you lot arguing about tool sharpening and the "textbooks"!

You should try reading the stuff that was published in my particular area *of expertise*.

Just look up Igor J. Karassik "Pump Handbook" and try to explain that to a newcomer!


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

Not been reading this tripe for a while, but just to put Jacob right. Almost every turner uses concave grinds on their tools and never a secondary bevel. It is not only logical, it is almost universally what is done. There may be exceptions that prove the rule, and some done out of ignorance, but single bevel, hollow girind is the norm, not flat (except for skews perhaps) and convex avoided at all costs. I won't argue on your opinion on rounded bevels, though I detest them, I can't say they don't work. Your opinion on the turning tools is just plain wrong, however.

I have never found problems with sharpening and do not find it tedious or difficult, or complex. Modern methods that you often decry are not at all modem, there are just more methods available to us now. Japanese stones are rooted in acient times, diamond dust has been used for grinding and polishing for centuries. This is not difficult it is just a choice and we do not choose all of them. I have a grindstone and 2 waterstones (besides slips and stuff we all accumulate). it is hardly too much kit. I do use, but not always a honing jig for when the angle is nice to know. With this kit i can get sharper and faster than i could with oilstones. I still like oilstones and they are still a viable choice, but I found I prefer the waterstones in most instances. The method for sharpening is much the same, just substitute lubricants and everything is much the same. it would be the same with ceramic stones, diamond stones, scary sharp.... we would just choose one method and have just a small kit, just the same. Why do you continually argue that sharpening has got confusing and difficult with modern methods. No one I know has, or advises anyone to have load of kit or use every sort of sharpening media. But every time it's ' we don't need all this complicated moder stuff, what did they do in Chippendales day' blah blah. Well they sharpened with a grindstone and whetstones from the local quarry, Welsh slate or shist or whatever. it was just the same as now, except we can get stuff from further afield.

I do require more from my edges than can be done with a fine India oilstone and the pretence that I'm getting things sharp. 

Mike.


----------



## John Brown

Give the guy a break!
Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread was a deliberate poke at Jacob, obvious from the subject title, and verified by the poker somewhere in the midst of all this noise.


----------



## woodbrains

John Brown":1xx7e60r said:


> Give the guy a break!
> Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread was a deliberate poke at Jacob, obvious from the subject title, and verified by the poker somewhere in the midst of all this noise.



Hello,

If my post seems overly harsh, it was not intended. I just wish Jacob would tell people what he knows, which is often good, rather than argue with other opinions, which are also often good. Sometimes the rubbish he comes out with to try to contradict others belittles the good stuff he knows, and gets us and him nowhere. I like reasoned debate, but sometimes the will to win takes over and things get silly. It is not just him, I don't mean to pick.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob

woodbrains":rwq64qt8 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Not been reading this tripe for a while, but just to put Jacob right. Almost every turner uses concave grinds on their tools and never a secondary bevel.


No they don't. Many sharpen on Sorby Proedge for instance, or on a flat plate on the tail stock. Coarse belt sander is good as it is quick and the finish is good enough.I've done all these. In fact as far as I recall concave bevels on turning tools was advised against when I was reading about it at first many years ago. Peter Childs book perhaps, or one of those 60s turners. They all work.


> It is not only logical, it is almost universally what is done.


Neither is true. Turners use all shapes from near 90º scraper to convex/flat curved, etc etc. They all work if they have a sharp edge. In any case the diameter of the turned item is going to vary so that will FU your dubious logic


> There may be exceptions that prove the rule, and some done out of ignorance, but single bevel, hollow girind is the norm, not flat (except for skews perhaps) and convex avoided at all costs.


Complete nonsense


> I won't argue on your opinion on rounded bevels, though I detest them, I can't say they don't work.


Detest? That's really weird! You seem to be emotionally attached to some astonishing trivia. Have you considered counselling of any sort?


> Your opinion on the turning tools is just plain wrong, however.


No it isnt. You are talking total nonsense. I presume you don't do any turning or you would know better.


> I have never found problems with sharpening and do not find it tedious or difficult, or complex.


Really? I thought you had to use a jig?


> .......
> 
> I do require more from my edges than can be done with a fine India oilstone and the pretence that I'm getting things sharp.
> 
> Mike.


No pretence involved in my part. I use a finer stone where necessary.

You obviously have done little turning Mike, or if you have you have been following some pointless and nonsensical rules. Did you make them up yourself?

I keep thinking I can escape from this Alice through the Looking Glass world of crazy sharpeners but then another nutter comes out of the woodwork and starts gibbering nonsense!


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

I have been turning since I was a kid. The Sorby pro edge is hardly a universal bit of kit is it? Most turners have a dry grinding wheel. They have a lathe after all, so even the most impoverished turner will have a way of mounting a grinding wheel on the lathe and use the tool rest. But a dry grinder or even a wet one like the Tormek is an accepted part of the turners kiy.

Scrapers are usually 80 degrees ish, 90 is too steep, but the angle is immaterial, it can still and usually is done concave on a grinding wheel. But then again you are being argumentative, since scrapers are not bevel controlled tools, as are gouges etc. which was the reason turning tools were mentioned at all, as having bevels which are distinctly different in purpose to bevels on planes. 

Oh and by the way, are you really starting to believe your own rubbish now. I have never said I need a jig to sharpen. I have posted several comment saying that freehand or jig is fine as long as you get sharp. I never said oilstones are bad, I have used them for years, never said scary sharp is bad, just not for me, but you can get very sharp and I know how to do it. If someone wants to do it, I won't throw my hands up in horror and say it is newfangled and complicated. It is simple and convenient, in fact and I can explain how to do it and the pros and cons in an informed way, cause I have done it, same with diamond and ceramic and slate. I do not talk out of ignorance and I do not claim something is useless until I have evidence. I like new advances in woodworking tools etc. it keeps things interesting and without them we would still be chipping bits off with flint axes.

I was actually hoping that you might just give us some informed and useful info from now on, but it seems you prefer unfounded argument, and wont take the compliment as was given about your knowledge. So I will just have to treat everything you say as BS because sifting through the dross for the odd nugget is just too tedious. Never mind, I tried.

Mike.


----------



## Tony Spear

Oh, for God's sake! Why can't you lot give it a rest?

I sharpen my tools as my Grandad showed me - no rubbish about "concave bevels, flat bevels, hollow grinds etc. etc. and all the B****dung!

"Sorby Pro-edge" (do you actually have one of those Jacob?) wasn't around when I was a kid - so my Brothers and I had to wind up a 24" wheel when major work was required!

Just ease off - or this could become one of those "good idea at the time" Forums!!

Enough is enough! :roll:


----------



## Jacob

Tony Spear":1ypcqt62 said:


> ....
> "Sorby Pro-edge" (do you actually have one of those Jacob?) w....


Yes I got one when I seemed to be regularly setting fire to my belt sander with tool grinding. 
Nice bit of kit. A bit OTT but comes in handy. Slightly annoyed with myself because I sold an old Picador linisher which would have done the job just as well and with the same size belts.


----------



## Tony Spear

Lord above- can't you give it a rest?


----------



## Tony Spear

mark w":3e3gb20t said:


> http://www.benchcrafted.com/Drawsharp.htm I bet you are speechless Jacob, I was!



AND you should be ashamed of yourself - creating this post just to wind up poor, innocent Jacob when he's done nothing to harm you!


----------



## Cottonwood

Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll: 
Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).


----------



## Jacob

Cottonwood":14ow3t7g said:


> Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll:
> Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).


Me. Used it a bit but in the workshop perhaps a bit redundant as combination of planes , spokeshaves etc work well, with a vice and bench. I have chair making intentions however.
This is weird though this thread. It feels like some sort of computer game - I fight off an army of stick wielding midgets only to find a poisonous dwarf nibbling my ankles!


----------



## Tony Spear

I gotta draw knife - used it to use it to rough out bits of Willow for my friend Ralph who'd been a hurdle maker since 1927. Now only used to knock off the corners of square stuff prior to turning between centres.


----------



## Tony Spear

Jacob":ru8gnc62 said:


> [I fight off an army of stick wielding midgets only to find a poisonous dwarf nibbling my ankles!



I hope you're not referring to me 'cos me and the boys know where you live.

Be afraid, be very, very afraid! :evil: :evil:


----------



## thick_mike

I use a draw knife to roughly dimension wood before planing for finish...seems quicker than rip sawing or using a scrub plane to me


----------



## Corneel

Used it for some tool handles and a live edge dining table. Fun tool but difficult to use.


----------



## Jacob

Corneel":390a5vex said:


> Used it for some tool handles and a live edge dining table. Fun tool but difficult to use.


Perhaps at it's best with green wood and a shave horse.


----------



## Cottonwood

thick_mike":3013s64q said:


> I use a draw knife to roughly dimension wood before planing for finish...seems quicker than rip sawing or using a scrub plane to me


Amen to that. I sometimes use a brades axe for similar purposes, whups waste away in no time. The fantastic thing about a draw knife is it can go from rizla thin slivers to 1/4 inch or more chips, and back again, (and any thickness in between) in a split second, so versatiile, no need to constantly fiddle with adjustment knobs or even wedges as on a plane....but admittedly that sculptural style of woodwork isnt for everyone, some people are more fastidious, and that of course is fine...


----------



## mark w

Jacob":2ki7eiid said:


> mark w":2ki7eiid said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you do pretend Jacob, you were caught out in another thread when you made some reference to guitars, a person who really new the subject tried to put you right.
> 
> 
> 
> FFS I knew nothing about Fenders and was quoting something I'd read and somebody who knew more than me put me right. So what? Is that it then? What on odd and uninteresting little thing to remember. Do you have link? we could all go back for a second look and get really excited. Here it is post798586.html?hilit=fender#p798586
> 
> 
> 
> In bugbears text it says this "An undulating motion must be avoided,as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding". what is he grinding on if not a stone? Yes I can read.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh I see. By "grindstone" I meant wheel. There's no mention of "grindstones" or "grind wheels" or hollow grinding etc etc.which is the obvious but trivial point I was making, which you have chosen to misunderstand .
> 
> 
> 
> The chisel you are most likely to push into a piece of wood is the paring chisel, you are far more likely to strike a mortice chisel with a hammer.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :roll: What chisel would you use for splitting hairs?
Click to expand...

I won`t bother responding to your first comments, basically you agree with me that you get things wrong a good deal of the time, but your question about a chisel for splitting hairs, well, I would use a Blue Spruce bevel edged chisel, hollow ground, sharpened to perfection using the David Charlesworth method, I`m sure I could split a hair with it, you did mean hair not hare didn`t you?


----------



## RossJarvis

I must admit that I was most surprised to see about 6 pages added to this thread since I last looked, which didn't seem to be that long ago :shock: ! Also that there was a mix of very good and positive comment along-side what appears to be bitter and negative invective. As a relative newcomer I find the whole thing a bit bizarre as I'm used to forums where moderators are a bit more active at intercepting such feuding. (not a complaint at this site's moderators, just an observation).

My two-penneth worth is that there is actually a market for "sharpening devices", otherwise they wouldn't sell and that this market is actually a good thing. The reason it's a good thing is that it helps people work with wood, whether in a commercial setting or purely for their own pleasure. I must say that someone who works with cutting tools a lot, particularly if they're intelligent and thoughtful, who has the time, will probably be able to develop the hand-skill of sharpening free-hand to a very high degree, particularly if they are the type of person who has the capacity and is able to develop their own hand-brain co-ordination to a good or high level. However this is not the world of many people who wish to work with wood. It is also not the position most modern workers-in-wood exist in. 

Yes, being able to sharpen free-hand is a very useful skill. It is not essential for everyone, nor is it possible for everyone. There are people who don't have the time to learn, or the physical or mental capacity. Due to the many ridiculous constraints on those who teach wood-skills to modern students, it is highly unlikely much time will be given over to the current generation of "wood-workers" on sharpening, particularly by hand, so the market for sharpening "gee-gaws" is not going to diminish. In fact, the ability to hand sharpen will only diminish. To complain about the rise in sharpening aids is therefore elitist, excluding and flying in the face of the reality of modern life.

By all means encourage and inform people about developing hand skills, including those about sharpening. But trying to make out that this is the "best" or "only proper" way is frankly denying the reality of the circumstances that other people find themselves in.

I would also add that for those of us who do wish to maintain our tools in as usable a state as we can, that any way of doing this, which we are able to do is valid. In fact, experimenting free-hand may be a revelation and save time, particularly when we have the time to trial and make mistakes.

I would just like to add that after opening our mouths, maybe we need to look at what we've said and see if what we said was helpful and positive, or just hurtful, self aggrandising, mistaken or just plain stupid. I know I say stupid things fairly often, I can't un-say these things, but I can apologise afterwards.


----------



## Jacob

RossJarvis":16xupt4h said:


> I must admit that I was most surprised to see about 6 pages added to this thread since I last looked, which didn't seem to be that long ago :shock: ! Also that there was a mix of very good and positive comment along-side what appears to be bitter and negative invective. As a relative newcomer I find the whole thing a bit bizarre as I'm used to forums where moderators are a bit more active at intercepting such feuding. (not a complaint at this site's moderators, just an observation).
> 
> My two-penneth worth is that there is actually a market for "sharpening devices", otherwise they wouldn't sell and that this market is actually a good thing. The reason it's a good thing is that it helps people work with wood, whether in a commercial setting or purely for their own pleasure. I must say that someone who works with cutting tools a lot, particularly if they're intelligent and thoughtful, who has the time, will probably be able to develop the hand-skill of sharpening free-hand to a very high degree, particularly if they are the type of person who has the capacity and is able to develop their own hand-brain co-ordination to a good or high level. However this is not the world of many people who wish to work with wood. It is also not the position most modern workers-in-wood exist in.
> 
> Yes, being able to sharpen free-hand is a very useful skill. It is not essential for everyone, nor is it possible for everyone. There are people who don't have the time to learn, or the physical or mental capacity. Due to the many ridiculous constraints on those who teach wood-skills to modern students, it is highly unlikely much time will be given over to the current generation of "wood-workers" on sharpening, particularly by hand, so the market for sharpening "gee-gaws" is not going to diminish. In fact, the ability to hand sharpen will only diminish. To complain about the rise in sharpening aids is therefore elitist, excluding and flying in the face of the reality of modern life.
> 
> By all means encourage and inform people about developing hand skills, including those about sharpening. But trying to make out that this is the "best" or "only proper" way is frankly denying the reality of the circumstances that other people find themselves in.
> 
> I would also add that for those of us who do wish to maintain our tools in as usable a state as we can, that any way of doing this, which we are able to do is valid. In fact, experimenting free-hand may be a revelation and save time, particularly when we have the time to trial and make mistakes.
> 
> I would just like to add that after opening our mouths, maybe we need to look at what we've said and see if what we said was helpful and positive, or just hurtful, self aggrandising, mistaken or just plain stupid. I know I say stupid things fairly often, I can't un-say these things, but I can apologise afterwards.


Sorry mate that's too long could you do a precis say 50 words?


----------



## RossJarvis

Jacob":avuxql70 said:


> Sorry mate that's too long could you do a precis say 50 words?



No. 

If you have any friends who can read English, see if they'll do it for you :lol: 

love and kisses 

Ross

Thinking about it maybe that's unkind.

Trying to cut it short (which I do find difficult) is that there are many, equally valid ways to sharpen tools, some tools need specialised methods. It is probably very beneficial to be able to do it by hand, and the convex bevel method seems very sound and a good technique to master. However, for many people, using jigs or whatever "new" method is available is probably just as good, if not better.

I just feel that belittling others due to their particular choice is cruel and unfair.


----------



## woodbrains

Cottonwood":34qblz0e said:


> Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll:
> Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).



Hello,

Yes I have and use a drawknife. Funnily enough, I said in some previous thread about how handy they were for taking the wane etc from the edge of rough sawn boards ( as suggested by another here) but got, yes you've guessed it, contradicted. Though funnily the idea seems to have got some favour here, but not when I suggested it. Are we spotting a trend of some sort.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob

woodbrains":vxs01wn9 said:


> Cottonwood":vxs01wn9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll:
> Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Yes I have and use a drawknife. Funnily enough, I said in some previous thread about how handy they were for taking the wane etc from the edge of rough sawn boards ( as suggested by another here) but got, yes you've guessed it, contradicted. Though funnily the idea seems to have got some favour here, but not when I suggested it. Are we spotting a trend of some sort.
> 
> Mike.
Click to expand...

Congrats on having a draw knife, well done lad. It wasn't me being rude about it was it? Probably p|ssed. Sometimes is best to have a thick skin and live to fight another day.


----------



## Racers

I have a couple that get used for all sorts of stuff, knocking corners, spoon carving, tool handles.

Pete


----------



## Corneel

Now you do it again Ross! Making it sound all very difficult. :wink: In fact it isn't.

I also thought sharpening was very difficult and used a jig for years. When I finally got rid of it I was prepared for a lengthy learning curve, but it was no bother at all.


----------



## Racers

Corneel":3i4zf4kb said:


> Now you do it again Ross! Making it sound all very difficult. :wink: In fact it isn't.
> 
> I also thought sharpening was very difficult and used a jig for years. When I finally got rid of it I was prepared for a lengthy learning curve, but it was no bother at all.




You can only say *you* found it easy, not everybody is the same!

Pete


----------



## Corneel

Did you see the video from Larry Williams? Did you see the tremors in his hands? Looks a bit like parkinson (but i really don't know what ails him). Anyway, if he can do it, everyone can. BTW, kudo's to Larry to do these video's with his ailment. I am stuttering, so I prefer to keep my mouth shut when I make a youtube vid :lol: .


----------



## Jacob

If you read Nicholson, Ellis etc any of the old books they make it sound easy. That's because it _is_ easy.

If you read much of the new sharpeners stuff they make it sound difficult. They say it often. That's because if you do it their way it _is_ difficult!





.


----------



## Racers

I could say "I find talking easy why don't you?"

I would never coerce you to do anything you would find difficult, or even imply that you are a lesser person for not doing something my way.

We are all different and should be allowed to do what ever we find comfortable and works for us.

Pete


----------



## Tony Spear

Jacob":1noiylem said:


> Corneel":1noiylem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Used it for some tool handles and a live edge dining table. Fun tool but difficult to use.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps at it's best with green wood and a shave horse.
Click to expand...


That's just about the most sensible suggestion you've made on thia thread.

A lot of the old "bodgers" in the Chilters used draw knives and a shave horse to "rough out" stuff before bunging it on the old pole lathe. (seen it, dunnit!)

My friend Ralph, who I mentioned earlier on, used to work with riven green willow for "gate" hurdles.

Froe and Mallet (or Beetle and Wedge if you prefer!) shave horse, draw knife, hand brace, mortice chisel, hammer and a bag of cut nails was all he needed! He was still making hurdles as decorative garden furniture until near on his death. I've even seen hedges that grew from old green willow hurdles that he made 30 or 40 years ago!
In his later years, he had quite a productive sideline making miniature hurdles for indoor decoration in the tarted up old cottages which proliferate around here!


----------



## Corneel

Oh, I am talking a lot. On the phone, in meetings, with patients etc. It's just when you post a video which everybody on the planet can see, it takes an extra psychological step. It is very courageous of Larry Williams to take that step.


----------



## Corneel

If you have the dexterity to use the tools, you also have the dexterity to sharpen them.


----------



## Eric The Viking

@ Corneel: Not everyone does. I can grip some tools and others are impossible (my hands are deformed). 

I've finally got the sticking plaster off one finger after a rather nasty cut from a kitchen knife (probably should've got it stitched, but hey). I know how to use knives; I was careless for a split second; it was done by the very point of the knife.

I have a small-ish industrial guillotine, from the printing industry. It's got a very scary knife (two actually - I have a spare), about 18" long, incredibly sharp, 1/4" thick and 3" edge-to-back. I get it (them) professionally done and they have wooden keepers, but even so they're really scary to fit and remove. My biggest worry when doing it is dropping it at some point in the process.

We need tools to be sharp, but sharp=dangerous, too. Sharpening shouldn't be an expression of bravado. 

Obviously that drawknife tool is expensive, but it's also a cleverly designed thing that should make a difficult sharpening job both safer and more consistent. Nobody's forced to use anything like that, but whilst I do wonder about some plane iron jigs, that jig is something I'd consider to keep in a pocket if I needed to use a drawknife regularly. 

It wouldn't slip easily from my hands, and I'd be less likely to make a silly (and bloody) mistake using it.

Your mileage, etc.

E.


----------



## Corneel

Eric The Viking":2a9hecyh said:


> @ Corneel: Not everyone does. I can grip some tools and others are impossible (my hands are deformed).
> 
> 
> 
> E.



Eric, that's a completely different situation. I feel for you and apologise if my posting was in any way confrontational for you.


----------



## Jacob

Eric The Viking":2rno6cd0 said:


> @ Corneel: Not everyone does. I can grip some tools and others are impossible ....


I use blade holders sometimes - basically a bit of 2"x1" with a saw kerf for the blade. All sorts of variations are possible including shaping the handle for comfort/grip. On one I fastened a wooden door knob. They help with small blades, but also with big ones as you can put more pressure on without cramping your fingers tight.


----------



## Eric The Viking

Corneel":3ipa4tjd said:


> Eric The Viking":3ipa4tjd said:
> 
> 
> 
> @ Corneel: Not everyone does. I can grip some tools and others are impossible (my hands are deformed).
> 
> 
> 
> E.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric, that's a completely different situation. I feel for you and apologise if my posting was in any way confrontational for you.
Click to expand...


I didn't take it like that at all - no apology needed. 

It's just there was a consensus emerging of 'expensive rubbish' when actually it's quite an elegant idea, albeit pricey. Drawknives are more than a bit awkward - you can't easily even use a kitchen steel because of the handles (although that's the wrong kind of 'sharp' anyway).

You get the angles consistently, there's no setup time, and it's safer. Apart from price, that ticks all the boxes for me! Point being that I'm not too proud to know that I'm often safer or better off with a jig than freehand.

E.


----------



## PAC1

Jacob
Just to be clear you use something you have made to help hold a blade whilst sharpening?
Could we call it a JIG


----------



## Jacob

PAC1":3ndurs3y said:


> Jacob
> Just to be clear you use something you have made to help hold a blade whilst sharpening?
> Could we call it a JIG


  
Feel free to call it what you like but they are generally referred to as blade "holders" *. The idea is to make the blade easier to hold. 
Oddly enough jigs proper don't do this - they don't actually have handles and aren't easy to hold. This always strikes me as an amazingly ludicrous omission - a bit like having a plane with no handles. Blade holding devices which are difficult to hold. :roll: 

*They appear in the old books but not the new. Too simple and obvious I guess.


----------



## n0legs

This is my spoon. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. My spoon is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my spoon is useless. Without my spoon, I am useless. I must stir my spoon true. I must stir faster than my enemy, who is trying to out-stir me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my spoon and myself are makers of my coffee, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviours of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":1obt16ii said:


> PAC1":1obt16ii said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob
> Just to be clear you use something you have made to help hold a blade whilst sharpening?
> Could we call it a JIG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to call it what you like but they are generally referred to as blade "holders" *. The idea is to make the blade easier to hold.
> Oddly enough jigs proper don't do this - they don't actually have handles and aren't easy to hold. This always strikes me as an amazingly ludicrous omission - a bit like having a plane with no handles. Blade holding devices which are difficult to hold. :roll:
> 
> *They appear in the old books but not the new.
Click to expand...


They appear in many books, both old and new.

BugBear


----------



## KevM

Good point, well made.

My rifle and I know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...


----------



## Cottonwood

woodbrains":122u6gu5 said:


> Cottonwood":122u6gu5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll:
> Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Yes I have and use a drawknife. Funnily enough, I said in some previous thread about how handy they were for taking the wane etc from the edge of rough sawn boards ( as suggested by another here) but got, yes you've guessed it, contradicted. Though funnily the idea seems to have got some favour here, but not when I suggested it. Are we spotting a trend of some sort.
> 
> Mike.
Click to expand...


Oh fer gawds sake Mike loosen up. Next you'll want credit for inventing the damned thing (the draw knife) chill out mon.


----------



## Carl P

n0legs":21icvg2x said:


> This is my spoon. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. My spoon is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my spoon is useless. Without my spoon, I am useless. I must stir my spoon true. I must stir faster than my enemy, who is trying to out-stir me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my spoon and myself are makers of my coffee, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviours of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.





But are you a free as a bird stirrer, or is your world bound to the jiggly contraptions of stirring - come to that do you choose the true righteous righthand stir, or do you consort with devils and leftleaning deviants? I see from the picture that you choose coffee over tea, I think my question has been answered - God Help Us All!!!

PS When it comes to spoons I prefer woodies.

Cheerio,

Carl


----------



## Tony Spear

KevM":34hvl5xq said:


> Good point, well made.
> 
> My rifle and I know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...



The Bunnies don't even know that they're dead - until I pick them up! AND be careful with that sharp knife when you clean them out, 'cos if you penetrate the intestines, the smell can hang around for ages!


----------



## woodbrains

Cottonwood":2n1j2us8 said:


> woodbrains":2n1j2us8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cottonwood":2n1j2us8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll:
> Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Yes I have and use a drawknife. Funnily enough, I said in some previous thread about how handy they were for taking the wane etc from the edge of rough sawn boards ( as suggested by another here) but got, yes you've guessed it, contradicted. Though funnily the idea seems to have got some favour here, but not when I suggested it. Are we spotting a trend of some sort.
> 
> Mike.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh fer gawds sake Mike loosen up. Next you'll want credit for inventing the damned thing (the draw knife) chill out mon.
Click to expand...


So did you want an answer to the question, or not? I dunno how you want me to respond really, though I suspect you would prefer me not to post at all, since knowledge here is not well regarded. So well done, you've got what you wish for. Novices beware the misinformation; few of any note now remain.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob

woodbrains":3390c63a said:


> ..... Novices beware the misinformation; few of any note now remain.
> 
> Mike.


Yes it has gone a bit quiet. Only 5900 views on this thread. Obviously everybody is losing interest. I wonder where they have all gone?

I think you need to relax a bit Mike and be less assertive and bad tempered about what you think you know and you think the rest of us don't.
Where did you pick up that thing about concave bevels and turning BTW?


----------



## G S Haydon

Just to say I'm enjoying the debate and I intned not to offend or upset anyone, if that does happen it is not intneded. If I go to far without thinking let me know.

As I'm wrting my next few articles on my blog about chisels I dusted off a few of the Old tools that my Great Granddad, Granddad and Dad used. I was interested to take a look at the mortice chisles too.







Hollow ground, but hardy noticable because it was done on a grind stone, normally always a grind wheel of large diameter. To be found even in north devonian father and son set ups and used for many years (as seen in my previous photo) Like most trades people no doubt he saw the benefit of this time proven system during his apprenticeship 

http://i0.wp.com/gshaydon.co.uk/blog/wp ... enture.jpg

I think this I why I find it hard when some (this is not at all aimed at Jacob becuse he even says within an impulse purchase he found a variety of edges) more aimed at others that think history was written only with the convex bevels. This is not an agrument about what is best, that is down to the user. It is simply fact that in addtion to the examples show in books many did use the method described within them. Noboby can say otherwise although it seems some do to try to back up their poorly researched theories by saying that convex was "the dominant" way of doing things (that is not aimed at Jacob at all as I respect his skills and opinions)


----------



## Jacob

It's simple really - if anybody (including me) had access to a large wet wheel they would use it and you would see the result as above. 
Conversely many of my randomly purchased old planes have signs of being ground with an angle grinder - not because this was their chosen method but because they didn't have much choice.
But I have to say I very rarely see nicely hollow ground edges like yours and I think the reason is obvious - there weren't many large wet grind wheels around. They weren't available for the majority of users.
Nicely hollow ground edges - I say "very rarely" - but in fact "never" is nearer the mark with the abandoned old planes I seem to acquire. They are _all_ roughly convex bevelled, with one, two or more bevels. Chisels (and modern thin plane blades) similarly but there you can also find very neat convex bevels
On the other hand crudely hollow-ground (bench grindstone) crops up, but not that often.
My objection to the new sharpening is the strict orthodoxy and the insistence that freehand is nearly impossible and the need for a huge range of expensive kit. Which of course is where this thread kicked off, with a stupidly expensive unnecessary bit of kit completely alien to the whole spirit of the draw knife!

PS Personally I wouldn't be happy with _small _diameter hollow grinds as I think this could weaken the edge too much. I often see ground bevels which have been messily nibbled at with a small wheel in an attempt to flatten out the hollow.
But large is good - the larger you go the nearer you get to flat.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":11fzxgbh said:


> Just picked up another box of tatty old tools (accidental ebay bid after a few pints). Includes several planes 4s and some woodies. Looking at edges of these and previous mistaken purchases (I'll count them later, must be 30 or so) it has to be said that there are all sorts of rough grinding of primary bevels followed by neater honed secondary bevels, also many distinctly convex over all.



That's exactly what I'd expect, and reflects my experience of s/h blades in a wide variety of contexts (car boot, dealers, auction, specialist auctions etc). I'm ignoring the totally wrecked edges that have been used on concrete or similar, of course.

We almost always see a primary bevel, ground with whatever coarse process is available, and a steeper secondary where the actual sharpening takes place. Working freehand, convexity tends to emerge, wether you like it or not, which is why the texts have their admonishments.

When the secondary bevel becomes too large/steep/rounded the coarse process is applied once more. Thus any blade will be somewhere from fresh-ground to about-to-be-ground.

The neatest bevels I've seen were in a complete tool chest sold at auction that once belonged to a pattern maker. His ability and precision obviously applied to his tools as well as his work, including some beautiful self-made tools.

BugBear


----------



## Paul Chapman

Jacob":6klbhokn said:


> My objection to the new sharpening is the strict orthodoxy and the insistence that freehand is nearly impossible



Who are all these people who insist that freehand is nearly impossible? I've not come across them.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## bugbear

Paul Chapman":1kcas72b said:


> Jacob":1kcas72b said:
> 
> 
> 
> My objection to the new sharpening is the strict orthodoxy and the insistence that freehand is nearly impossible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who are all these people who insist that freehand is nearly impossible? I've not come across them.
Click to expand...


someone like this?

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":ql2e11tg said:


> Paul Chapman":ql2e11tg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":ql2e11tg said:
> 
> 
> 
> My objection to the new sharpening is the strict orthodoxy and the insistence that freehand is nearly impossible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who are all these people who insist that freehand is nearly impossible? I've not come across them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> someone like this?
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

From the archive:

"Unless you happen to have an uncanny ability to judge and hold a desired angle freehand, some kind of assistance is definitely called for. BugBear"


----------



## AndyT

A few posts ago, BugBear agreed with Jacob and I felt a little flutter of hope that this thread might be allowed to end in peace...


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":134jrzv2 said:


> _"Unless you happen to have an uncanny ability to judge and hold a desired angle freehand, some kind of assistance is definitely called for. _BugBear"



Out of context quoting again? A quick search reveals that I said that when talking about back bevels, back in 2010 (!!). Here's the post, for anyone that cares.

post480986.html

BugBear


----------



## Eric The Viking

I can open my egg easily, at whichever end I choose. 

I've tried this, and although there was a bit of thunder and lightning nothing really terrible happened. I'm actually beginning to think that it won't, either.

Do I need therapy, or just more toast for soldiers?

E.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

AndyT":3pqwivq8 said:


> A few posts ago, BugBear agreed with Jacob and I felt a little flutter of hope that this thread might be allowed to end in peace...



I'm of the opinion that it's probably time this thread was humanely put out of it's misery. 

(If the useful contributions were distilled down, I doubt they'd fill two pages.)


----------



## Carl P

Some are possibly more interested in the misery than the humanity, also, what happens if you eat the egg from one side with a spoon and from the other with toastie soldiers? A somewhat more satisfying conundrum I'm sure we'll all agree.


----------



## Eric The Viking

Carl P":3su8xa1g said:


> Some are possibly more interested in the misery than the humanity, also, what happens if you eat the egg from one side with a spoon and from the other with toastie soldiers? A somewhat more satisfying conundrum I'm sure we'll all agree.



Heretic!


----------



## Kalimna

Possibly, however, the only sensible way to eat an egg is freehand, and scrambled. Talk of soldiers and boiled is modern nonsense.

Cheers,
Adam


----------



## Tony Spear

Eric The Viking":zrriy0jj said:


> I can open my egg easily, at whichever end I choose.
> 
> I've tried this, and although there was a bit of thunder and lightning nothing really terrible happened. I'm actually beginning to think that it won't, either.
> 
> Do I need therapy, or just more toast for soldiers?
> 
> E.



What's this then? 6 eggs and only 5 soldiers?  

Anthony Hancock (RIP)


----------



## Max Power

Surprising isn't it that with so many self appointed experts on this forum there is such a lack of top end woodworking in the projects section :?


----------



## mark w

Max Power, none of us make anything, we are all to busy posting on this thread  Make something! What and get my tools dirty and blunt them, no, no, no!


----------



## Jacob

OK then what have you two been making lately?
I've been fairly busy - I'll post up some snaps later.


----------



## Benchwayze

I need furniture Max Power; not plaudits. 

When my knees have fully healed, I might get around to making some; and I doubt I'll have time to WIP or even take finished pics. :mrgreen:


----------



## G S Haydon

Max Power":d5k8fm61 said:


> Surprising isn't it that with so many self appointed experts on this forum there is such a lack of top end woodworking in the projects section :?



Just finished this in my spare time http://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/114 ... ers-bench/


----------



## Max Power

An excellent bench and thread , I shall immediately promote you to my list of approved experts (hammer) 
Seriously though Ive seen some of your excellent work before, whereas some posters of long standing will argue all day long over the merits of marking out with a 2H versus an HB pencil but never seem to actually do any woodwork :?


----------



## G S Haydon

8) Im honoured :lol: ! I was reluctant to post it here for fear of threads like this developing around it. I should probably just man up a bit :wink:


----------



## mark w

You can check up on what I have been doing on my website, http://www.markwhitefurniturecabinetmaker.com
GS Haydon, just checked out your blog, nice workbench, I like your vids and black and white photography. I have added you to my blog list.


----------



## Max Power

Some very nice pieces there Mark, but don't be shy about putting them on here, would be lovely to see some of them in the projects section. Very nicely done website as well and I liked the bedrock restoration, although I would have been inclined to finish it in the original colour


----------



## mark w

Thanks Max, I had some gold paint, so I thought why not!


----------



## Jacob

My current big number has been this staircase. Not fine furniture but very trad joinery. Bloody complicated I'd like a 2nd go. Not finished yet!


----------



## mark w

Jacob is this part of your chapel renovation? Looks like a really nice building, do you use part of it as a workshop or is it all living accomodation?


----------



## Jacob

2 top floors (what was the chapel) for living and the basement (was schoolroom) as a workshop. Seem to be taking a lifetime - have made the stairs wide enough for carrying my coffin!


----------



## mark w

I`m very envious, the ideal workshop location. My workshop is two miles from my house.


----------



## G S Haydon

mark w":3j3esrgv said:


> You can check up on what I have been doing on my website, http://www.markwhitefurniturecabinetmaker.com
> GS Haydon, just checked out your blog, nice workbench, I like your vids and black and white photography. I have added you to my blog list.



Did likewise Mark, great stuf. Seems like you cover a wide brief as we do which is fun and frustrating in equal measure! I poped an FB like on there too. Thanks for the kind words. My vids I'm trying to improve on, if I can get them better they should compliment the blog nicely. I'm a bit limited due to my camera for both video ans still being a mobile phone!


----------



## G S Haydon

Jacob the stairs are looking great. The concept of somewhere to live up top and workshop below is frankly awesome. I'd never get that past my better half! Stairs can be great fun and they do push the boundaries, once you leave straight flighs with turns and enter the world of the elipse it really does melt the brain (mine anyway).


----------



## mark w

Thanks Graham, your videos already look good to me and I think you are brave doing it, never catch me doing that.
I would like to make furniture and nothing else, but I haven`t got the customer base for that, kitchens are still my bread and butter work, not complaining it pays the bills.


----------



## yetloh

I found this thread because I have a Drawsharp and was idly looking for a UK review of it and there doesn't seem to be one, based on my limited Google search. I got about half way through the thread and almost lost the will to live (ignoring Jacob's posts and the replies helped a bit) and I was relieved and satisfied to see David Charleswoth joining in with a comment about it being a pretty pathetic thread. 

Anyway, given that, unless I missed it, no one who posted from the UK seemed to have handled, let alone used, one I thought some first hand knowledge might supply a useful postscript. I bought it because I was in the process of making four dining chairs to a very organic design - all curves, varying sections, no straight lines and very few reference points - which involved a huge amount of drawknife work. My starting point was that I had barely used a drawknife before and I must say that, though expensive, the Drawsharp is an excellent piece of kit which gives an excellent edge very quickly and with complete reliabilty. If I have a criticism it is that the two grades of abrasive provided don't go fine enough, but the device has four potential sharpening faces on each of the two posts so that is easily remedied with some 3M self adhesive abrasive. 

Do I feel guilty about not having taken the trouble to teach myself to sharpen a drawknife entirely freehand on an old dished oilstone? Not a bit. I was taught furniture making by a very wise man who has spent a lifetime making wonderful furniture and uses honing guides, for pretty much all his sharpening (not David C). If you like the repeatability of honing guides and have a lot of drawknife work to do you won't be disapppointed if you splash out for a Drawsharp. Hardly a surprising conclusion when Brian Boggs likes them, I know, but I speak as an amateur who sets himself very high standards even if I don't always achieve them.

Jim


----------



## El Barto

Hi Jim, I also found this thread a little while ago and grew tired of it pretty quickly. But thanks for posting your thoughts on the Drawsharp. I’ve been curious about it for a while but at the moment I’m getting by ok with using diamond stones (should I be using a dished oilstone? I don’t want to upset the sharpening council).

I read a Chris Schwarz review of it that was along the lines of it makes life easier, gives you repeatable results and means you spend less time trying to get a decent edge and more time actually using the drawknife. Sounds pretty good to me!!!! I really dislike this holier than thou approach taken by some when it comes to using jigs and the like. It’s pointless and counter productive. Not to mention that Peter Galbert is undoubtedly a finer chairmaker than all of the oafs decrying his jig put together. Go figure. 

Thanks again.


----------



## D_W

Not to pick at your post, but there is a notion that you can only get repeatable results with a guide or gadget. I measured my irons last year to see what the effective final angle was (on common pitch bench planes) and found that they were all within about one degree of each other. 

I am about to make and put up a video about preparing chisels. Quite often, I see people troubling with chisel preparation for two reasons:
1) they're told that it's going to be difficult and that the only way to avoid that is to buy new premium chisels
2) they're using the wrong tools because they've been advised by someone who told them point 1 above. 

Sharpening a draw knife that's in good shape is a bit easier to do freehand than it is with a gadget. Maybe not the first time, but certainly the fifth. If you are going to do something like this with any frequency, you will have a net loss of time (not to mention money) with the gadgets. This thread is old, so I don't remember what I said, but it's probably something along the lines of supplying tools to a captive audience and that audience being one that demands first-shot success, as well as the instructor wanting the same thing (so that the captive audience doesn't make them spend time instructing them on sharpening - which is certainly not a paid-for endeavor for the instructor). 

I prepared three sets of sorby chisels this weekend, all brand new and all had some minor flaws. It took less than an hour for all three sets from complete flattening to finish honing. The total cost of the sharpening kit that I used was about $70, which includes the stone, some glass, some PSA paper, etc. The video will be findable on youtube in a day or two. 

As far as boggs' comments, etc, you can't really rely on them. He can only say one thing about a tool like this, and in his demonstration of his own sharpening, no such thing is used. He's in the community of boutique instructors, and it's sort of like a fraternity or fraternal club. I have been admonished several times by members of it who believe that you can only say positive things about instructors' or tool makers' efforts. 

That said, if you enjoy the gadget and have good success with it and never want for more, it's not my business or anyone else's. Your opinion conflicting with mine doesn't make me fear the end of the world, and I don't think you should take anyone else's so seriously.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

yetloh":256bf8bf said:


> I thought some first hand knowledge might supply a useful postscript. I bought it because I was in the process of making four dining chairs to a very organic design - all curves, varying sections, no straight lines and very few reference points - which involved a huge amount of drawknife work.



Setting aside how you sharpen your drawknife, I'd very much like to see your chairs...


----------



## StraightOffTheArk

Well, I may be a completely rubbish furniture maker, but... at least I am holier than thou!! (hammer) :lol: 

I am, as Jimi Hendrix said in his well-known paean to freehand sharpening, Stone Free!! (Or does that mean I should be using diamond plates on the soles of my shoes?)

Seriously though, it is the lack of common courtesy so generally prevalent on the internet that gets me down - obviously I'm right and it's all the other idiots that are wrong - I'll just say it more politely!

Carl


----------



## El Barto

Sheffield Tony":12u7yk9i said:


> yetloh":12u7yk9i said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought some first hand knowledge might supply a useful postscript. I bought it because I was in the process of making four dining chairs to a very organic design - all curves, varying sections, no straight lines and very few reference points - which involved a huge amount of drawknife work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Setting aside how you sharpen your drawknife, I'd very much like to see your chairs...
Click to expand...


Me too!


----------



## Jacob

El Barto":1yxdinwy said:


> ...... I really dislike this holier than thou approach taken by some when it comes to using jigs and the like. ......


It's not "holier than thou" its more "cheaper and easier than what the snake-oil and gadget salesmen would sell you"; i.e. just trying to be helpful!


----------



## El Barto

Jacob":3q89cw3e said:


> El Barto":3q89cw3e said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...... I really dislike this holier than thou approach taken by some when it comes to using jigs and the like. ......
> 
> 
> 
> It's not "holier than thou" its more "cheaper and easier than what the snake-oil and gadget salesmen would sell you"; i.e. just trying to be helpful!
Click to expand...


¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## yetloh

For those who expresed an interets in my cdining chairs here are some pics












They are steam bent undried laminated ash - 3 plies for the legs and rear seat rail, two for everything else except front seat rail which is solid. Plies are cut from consecutive bandsawn boards for grain continuity. Plies were glued after cooling with Purbond, a Swiss clear PU glue with an open time of 50 minutes. The leg to rear seat rail joints are big loose tenons. The front leg to back leg joint - I call it the knee joint - is reinforced with two side-by-side Dominos, further strengthened by walnut veneered ply splines let into grooves in both legs. This has resulted in massively strong joints at the rear seat rail and knees which sre further secured by 5mm ash dowels through the loose tenons, Dominos and splines installed after assembly. All other joints are Dominos.

These pics are of the first chair, but all are different. Two have the crest rail sloping l to r and two r to l. Within those pairs one has three back slats and one has four. The whole design is tree inspired so the slats taper bottom to top and the longer ones are wider as taller trees have thicker trunks. By far the hardest part of the build was bringing in all six or eight slat to rail joints tight at the same time because of the lack of reference points and the absence of parallel faces. Slats were cut overlength and then brought in gradually using multiple biased cuts with a block plane. The four slat chairs were an order of magnitude harder than those with three!

Initial shaping was on the bandsaw (the back legs start out 3" wide) followed by, drawknife work, spokeshaves and abrasives. Quite a lot of the finer shaping and blending of joints was done after assembly.

The four chairs took four years very much part-time work. They are designed to fit around a circular table to a similarly tree inspired design. They are all comfortable but some a little more than others as a result of small variations in rearward slope. I could correct this by adjusting the length of the rear legs but I doubt it will happen because they and the table are now with the non-paying client (my daughter) 120 miles away.

Hope you like them.

Jim


----------



## memzey

Awesome work Jim! Very inspiring I must say. 

Cracking thread as well! I’d not seen it before and read it all from beginning to end. Folks with equally strong yet differing convictions expressing them freely - that’s what public fora like this are for IMHO. Shame some contributions were a bit tetchy and personal but then again, as long as no one has wafer thin skin, you might say they just added a sprinkling of salty drama. Well done all. When’s the next sharpening war? I can hardly wait


----------



## StraightOffTheArk

Thanks for posting the pictures and details - truly inspiring work, and frankly, when you're producing work of such high quality, it shows the irrelevance of the whole sharpening debate. If I thought that buying a couple of sharpening jigs would enable me to produce work of that standard, I'd be first in the queue!

Carl


----------



## CStanford

yetloh":1i0z2g2d said:


> For those who expresed an interets in my cdining chairs here are some pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are steam bent undried laminated ash - 3 plies for the legs and rear seat rail, two for everything else except front seat rail which is solid. Plies are cut from consecutive bandsawn boards for grain continuity. Plies were glued after cooling with Purbond, a Swiss clear PU glue with an open time of 50 minutes. The leg to rear seat rail joints are big loose tenons. The front leg to back leg joint - I call it the knee joint - is reinforced with two side-by-side Dominos, further strengthened by walnut veneered ply splines let into grooves in both legs. This has resulted in massively strong joints at the rear seat rail and knees which sre further secured by 5mm ash dowels through the loose tenons, Dominos and splines installed after assembly. All other joints are Dominos.
> 
> These pics are of the first chair, but all are different. Two have the crest rail sloping l to r and two r to l. Within those pairs one has three back slats and one has four. The whole design is tree inspired so the slats taper bottom to top and the longer ones are wider as taller trees have thicker trunks. By far the hardest part of the build was bringing in all six or eight slat to rail joints tight at the same time because of the lack of reference points and the absence of parallel faces. Slats were cut overlength and then brought in gradually using multiple biased cuts with a block plane. The four slat chairs were an order of magnitude harder than those with three!
> 
> Initial shaping was on the bandsaw (the back legs start out 3" wide) followed by, drawknife work, spokeshaves and abrasives. Quite a lot of the finer shaping and blending of joints was done after assembly.
> 
> The four chairs took four years very much part-time work. They are designed to fit around a circular table to a similarly tree inspired design. They are all comfortable but some a little more than others as a result of small variations in rearward slope. I could correct this by adjusting the length of the rear legs but I doubt it will happen because they and the table are now with the non-paying client (my daughter) 120 miles away.
> 
> Hope you like them.
> 
> Jim



Beautiful. Reminds me of something Robert Whitley might make.

http://www.whitleystudio.com/Gallery/Ga ... table.html


----------



## Sheffield Tony

Well I'm glad I asked, well worth a look those chairs Jim ! Very unique.



> These pics are of the first chair, but all are different.



Excellent plan. If you had said they were all identical, I would have found it harder to believe. How could get chairs with steam bent components to be the same is beyond me, and it would be a mistake - last thing you want is for them to start looking mass produced !

Your daughter did very well, I reckon.


----------



## Jacob

Interesting chairs. Organic shapes - you can grow your own: https://fullgrown.co.uk/


----------



## Rorschach

Amazing work there!


----------



## yetloh

Thank you all for the kind words everyone; they are very much appreciated

A coulpe of specific responses. Thanks for the link to Robert Whitley, Charles. I hadn't come across his work before - there are some really good pieces there. It is often said that there is nothing truly new in furniture design and, of course, we all have our influences. When I sat down to design the chairs my biggest influence was the table I had already made but thinking about it subsequently I can see something of John Makepeace's work and also David Savage https://www.finefurnituremaker.com/bespoke-furniture/, and I must give a nod to Sam Maloof.

Tony, apart from the thickness of the sections (30-35mm) required to get enough meat at the main joints, one oof the reasons for going with steamed laminations was that it is possible to get much more consistent blanks, and fewer failures using this method than with solid steaming.. This is a big consideration in a design like this where the ends of the bent sections are not constrained as in a Windsor chair. The table was made with solid steam bending and I had to make eight legs to get four that were consistent enough to support a level table top.

Jim


----------

