# Help needed - sticky situation



## memzey (13 Mar 2018)

Hi gang,

So I’m making slow and painful progress on a coffee table for SWMBO and am essentially in the home straight. I’ve cut all the joinery for the base, glued up the top and fixed the breadboard ends. When I fixed those ends on, I glued about 2” of the tongue at the centre while leaving the rest to float and here is where my problem arises. When I fixed the breadboard ends, one had a bit of squeeze out at the shoulder. I cleaned this up with wet shop towels and went on my merry way. Now I’m sanding the top down and I have found that some of the towel appears to have become stuck in the shoulder and is casting a visible blue line:






Not good. 

Any clever tips for sorting this out? I doubt anyone else has committed this particular act of oafishness before but perhaps someone might be able to offer a neat solution?


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## sunnybob (14 Mar 2018)

The answer has to involve a table saw!

(sorry memzey, no sensible suggestion 'cos its well above my pay grade)


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## AndyT (14 Mar 2018)

My only idea is sympathy and more sanding.  
(And cloth rags not paper next time!)


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## MikeG. (14 Mar 2018)

I think I would probably take a sharp broader chisel (1" to 1'-1/2"), and use it as a scraper across the grain, gently. Very gently. You obviously need to control the edge nearest the breadboard end very carefully indeed. You might try finishing off with the grain, but starting the scraping on the face of the board takes some skill. Once you have cleared the offending stuff away, you'll need to determine whether the breadboard end needs adjusting, and a quick plane, scrape or, for some, sanding, will clean that up nicely.

The other approach is to leave well alone, knowing that you'll probably make things worse and that no-one will notice anyway. Or flip the table top over and use the underside as the top. They're both as good, aren't they?  *

* They shouldn't be, if you're being authentic.


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## MatthewRedStars (14 Mar 2018)

Rout a V groove along the join?


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## Geoff_S (14 Mar 2018)

Mild bleach solution?


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## Marineboy (14 Mar 2018)

Following on from the router suggestion, how about routing a shallow groove along the join and inserting some stringing in a contrasting wood?


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## Racers (14 Mar 2018)

Some times the only cure is not to look to closely, 99% of people won't notice it.

But it looks like you could sand it more and remove most of it, I would scrape rather than sand.

What is the other side like? can you turn it over?

Pete


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## ED65 (14 Mar 2018)

Geoff_S":2lk8pxgj said:


> Mild bleach solution?


I was going to suggest scraping too but this is brilliant!

memzey, test the bleach on a scrap of shop towel and if it removes the colour (as I suspect it will, the paper is likely dyed not pigmented) you're in luck.


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## MikeG. (14 Mar 2018)

ED65":vnt96cku said:


> Geoff_S":vnt96cku said:
> 
> 
> > Mild bleach solution?
> ...



Never mind what it does to the towel.......test it on some oak first, and see what it does to that. Oak is very reactive, and this could possibly be making a minor nuisance into something worse.


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## memzey (14 Mar 2018)

Thanks everyone - both for the suggestions and not taking the mickey! I’ve a bit more sanding to do on the top but the bulk removal has been done already so I don’t think that will help too much. I did try gently prying away at it with a knife but no joy. Bleach sounds like a smashing idea though. Would that be the normal bleach as used by Mrs. memzey diluted 50:50 or something else? As Mike suggests I’ll test it on some scraps of oak first.


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## custard (14 Mar 2018)

You have my sympathy Memzey, you've put your heart and soul into a project and any tiny flaw is just awful. One the other hand, it's exactly those sky high standards that will propel you up the craftsmanship ladder.

You don't mention what glue you used. If it had been hide glue (or even one of the liquid hide glues like the ones from Titebond or Old Brown Glue) then a scrub with boiling water would have removed all trace of the squeeze out _and_ the scraps of blue towel. 

However, I guess you've used PVA, which means the blue paper fibres are now effectively encapsulated within dried, moisture resistant, PVA. So I doubt bleach will touch them. What bleach will do however is affect the Oak. Bleached Oak is a very fashionable finish at the moment, but it needs multiple applications to even out the colour shift and prevent patchiness; that or a two-pack bleach which is a huge faff. In other words I think bleaching will involve you in a lot of work for negligible benefit.

Looking closely at the photos it's clear that the cross cut is quite ragged, and it's those minute chips that have left pockets for the glue and the paper fibres to reside. So one option that will both remove the blue paper fibres and tidy up the breadboard joint, is to sand, plane, or scrape down the entire surface by about 0.5mm. If you find yourself in my neck of the woods we could whack it through the drum sander and three or four passes would see the job done. Alternatively (unless you've got a decent random orbital disc sander) you're looking at an hour or so's careful work with hand tools. But that's what I'd do.

Good luck!


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## custard (14 Mar 2018)

Incidentally, I'd never use a cloth of any description for cleaning up PVA squeeze out, all it does is force the excess glue into the grain where it'll bite you when you come to apply your finish. 

Personally I prefer to wipe up the excess with a plastic scraper and then set to with boiling water and an old toothbrush. I repeat the scrubbing process three times, changing the water if it becomes cloudy. That might sound like a lot of faff, but all the experienced furniture makers I know do something similar, having found out from hard experience that a bit of extra effort at this stage saves a great deal of extra effort later on!


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## Newbie_Neil (14 Mar 2018)

Hi Custard,

Thank you for another excellent tip.

Neil


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## peter-harrison (14 Mar 2018)

If the timber is oak, and you used water for the clean-up, the blue is more likely to be iron staining which can happen very easily with oak, just from little specks of iron floating around in the air or on a not very clean rag. If it is, the marks should come out with oxalic acid, which is sold as wood-bleacher.


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## ED65 (15 Mar 2018)

memzey":1wtjzwuq said:


> Bleach sounds like a smashing idea though. Would that be the normal bleach as used by Mrs. memzey diluted 50:50 or something else?


Yes regular household bleach, a sodium hypochlorite solution. Ideal dilution will depend on the concentration, the old standard was for ~5% solution but some are more concentrated than that. With standard bleach 1:1 could work perfectly.

You need to clean the wood off afterwards. Some sources suggest using vinegar to neutralise after bleaching with standard bleach, the idea being a weak acid neutralises the alkali of the bleach. But it's completely not necessary as bleach breaks down upon drying to leave just common salt! You only need to flush or wipe down with plenty of clean water afterwards to get rid of it.

If it is iron staining as peter-harrison suggests then oxalic acid will treat it. Even jet-black old stains from rust can be brought down so it should have no trouble at all with this. Again you just need to flush with water after the surface has dried (three times minimum).

BTW unless you can meticulously paint along the line with a fine brush it's generally advised to coat the entire surface, not just spot-treat the problem.


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## memzey (15 Mar 2018)

Thanks for the tips everyone. Someone even used the words “memzey”, “high standards” and “craftsmanship” in the same paragraph! “Oafish wood butcher” in that order is probably more accurate. 

Anyway before I get on to progress - thank you Custard for your very kind offer. I have absolutely no doubt you would have followed through with it, if requested to do so, as such generosity is your established M.O. on these boards. 

To all those that suggested “sanding” as the answer - gold star duly awarded. I do have a decent ROS (Makita) and attacked the top with a bit more 80g. 45 minutes or so later things were looking much better:




A further going over with 120g followed which helped a bit more. I’ll probably go through the grits now to 240g with my finishing sander to get things ready for finishing (wash coat or two of de waxed blonde shellac followed by Matt Osmo PolyX). 

I’ve had so much help on this little project from people on these boards I feel I owe it to the community to finish it off with a wip thread. I was reluctant to do so at first as I knew I’d have to complete this project in little bites which would not make for good reading but I think I’ll bite the bullet and see if I can post up my progress to date and document the ending. 

Thanks again.


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## custard (15 Mar 2018)

Well done Memzey, that just looks _so_ much better. 

Incidentally, some years ago I made myself a dining table from Oak with breadboard ends.






I can see no difference in the quality of the edge jointing or the fit of the breadboard ends, between your work and mine. So I guess we're both "oafish wood butchers"!

On a more serious note, might be a good idea to investigate why your original cross cut was slightly ragged, and remedy the problem. I appreciate that Oak can be quite brittle and prone to chipping out, but if you don't cure this it'll plague all your future projects.

Once again, kudos for going the extra mile, and I look forward to your WIP.


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## Eric The Viking (19 Mar 2018)

I've got caught in the same way myself in the past - that blue paper roll from Toolstation. So thanks to Memzey for bringing it up and Custard for sharing a Really Good Tip. 

There are two differences though (a) I haven't dared attempt breadboard ends yet, and (b) if I did, bits of blue paper stuck to the joint (almost invisibly!) would be the least of my worries!

Seriously, and possibly one for Custard, I think I'd have grabbed my #80, given it a biggish camber (but little projection), and attacked on a diagonal (so it's paring both the main boards and the end). The idea being to reduce the amount of any necessary sanding to a minimum. 

Assuming I wasn't totally ham-fisted about it (big assumption, incidentally), am I missing some big gotcha?

E.


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## memzey (2 Apr 2018)

Hi everyone,

Apologies are due to all who contributed to this thread as I’m afraid I’ve gone and finished the table without opening a wip. I did intend to post my progress as I took several pictures along the way but what with one thing or another I couldn’t find the the time to both make and publish . 

Sorry gang. I promise to share my oafishness more freely next time. 

In terms of what next, I wonder whether a post showing the steps along the way would be preferable to a couple of shots of the finished article? Please let me know and I’ll find the time to post it up tomorrow. 

Thanks again to all that helped.


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## rafezetter (3 Apr 2018)

MatthewRedStars":rbheewqk said:


> Rout a V groove along the join?



This was going to be my reply - "celebrate" the joint, at least that's what I've heard this technique called - can't remember where I heard it, but it was suggested that celebrating a joint that isn't quite perfect will help to distract the eye from said imperfection - the joint itself looks fine with yours, but a very minor v groove should remove the glue issue, and won't look terrible either.

Wouldn't adding stringing along such a join after the fact negatively impact the issue of wood movement in the main slats? It might be nigh on impossible to make sure the glue only remained on the breadbaord side.

Edit NVM - I should have read the rest of the thread.

I'd hardly call you "oafish" either - you cut quite a striking visage I thought when we met at Richard A's last do.

Come to think of it - after the cabinet I'd wouldn't call you a "wood butcher " either....

PS - just to take the edge off that "love in" - Memzey I noticed that the grain direction of the dowels aren't all facing the same way..... lol just a thought *grin*.


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## memzey (3 Apr 2018)

Hello Rafe - how are you keeping mate? Looking forward to Richard’s do again this year I must say. I put it in the calendar as soon as he announced the date. 

I’d be careful around the shop if I were you though pal as you clearly must need specs these days; there are at least 8 oafish “gotchas” in these pics and you only managed to find one! I’ll be a mate - here you go -> www.specsavers.co.uk


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## memzey (4 Apr 2018)

Here are a couple of pics of the finished item anyway:











Mrs. memzey is quite pleased which is the ultimate passmark in our house anyway!


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## AndyT (4 Apr 2018)

That looks excellent. Very flat!

Strong enough for years of family use without being too heavy and chunky. Nice details with the wedged through tenons too.

=D> =D>


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## Geoff_S (4 Apr 2018)

That is very, very nice


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## thick_mike (4 Apr 2018)

I love a wedged tenon 

Well done.


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## custard (4 Apr 2018)

Smashing job Memzey!

=D> 

In particular well done on getting the two wedges the same size. When doing wedged tenons plenty of people just whack the first wedge fully home, which then closes up the gap for the second wedge so they can only get a tiny bit inserted, consequently they end up with Laurel and Hardy wedges, one fat one and one thin one!

Yours on the other hand are all perfectly even, which suggests you were smart enough to tap them home together with alternate gentle taps, or that you used a spacer to ensure both wedges were inserted to the same extent.


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## Sheffield Tony (4 Apr 2018)

I like that. 

Is the contrast in the wedged tenons just down to grain orientation ?  Looks good. And I like the stopped chamfers.


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## memzey (4 Apr 2018)

Thanks for the kind words everyone. It is rather embarrassing that it took me nearly 5 months to spend the 30 odd hours it took to build this but I suppose that's what a full time job, wife and three kids will do to anyone's woodworking!

Tony - the wedges are end grain on and are actually bright white rippled sycamore that a kind and generous gent on this site sent me to use for that purpose. There is a thread about it if you scroll down the joinery & cabinet making board a little bit. I wanted a distinct contrast between the end grain of the ABW through tenon and the wedge end grain. The sycamore is definitely several shades lighter than any oak end grain could be.

Custard - I actually measured the required lengths and angles of the wedges so that, when they were hammered home, they would match the width of the part of the tenon that is moved by the wedge (if that garbled collection of words makes any sense). I got this pretty close actually but perhaps I shouldn't have bothered as the contrast in shades makes the light coloured wedges appear bigger or at least more eye catching than dark tenon part. I'll have to allow for that optical effect next time I think. And yes - I did tap the wedges home in such a way as to keep them even in size - light taps on alternating wedges if I recall correctly.

I have a 4 hour train journey back from Edinburgh on Friday evening, during which I will post up a retrospective/wip thread in case any of my buffoonery might prove helpful to others in future. 

Thank you everyone who commented and helped me along the way.


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## memzey (6 Apr 2018)

So I did eventually post a wip thread in the projects sections for all those keen on seeing how the oafishness played out -> topic111674.html
Hope it makes sense but all feedback welcomed.


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