# timber price



## boschboy (30 Aug 2021)

why are timber prices so high at the moment can not believe they have doubled


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## TRITON (30 Aug 2021)

Lorry drivers, as in a lack of to transport them about.
Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving*

* Sorry to bring it to the fore again, but what can you do.

I got some 19x100x8'(4 of) off saw cheapo pine boards for a job and it was nearly 30 quid. Cheaper though than par. Thank god for owning a planer/thicknesser


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## mikej460 (30 Aug 2021)

I had a chat with a guy from a local joinery firm last week and he said that the industry is expecting it to return to normal next year. As I've moaned about on a previous thread, I've had to delay my workshop build until next year as my budget was blown. I've also had to accept a labour only quote from a builder due to the ever increasing timber prices.


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## Doug B (31 Aug 2021)

Shortage of supply & higher than usual demand, that said I was told the price increases have worked & theres been a fall in demand so the increases are calming down.
Hopefully Mike is right & next year will see things returning to normal but I doubt the prices will get back to anywhere near 2019 prices


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## Kimbo (31 Aug 2021)

Did a job this summer, sourcing cement was a problem and timber was very expensive, boards have also increased in price. 
Obviously the pandemic hasn't helped but the big issue is a shortage of HGV qualified drivers, many EU drivers have returned to their homes. I'm afraid this is due to Brexit, and I think things are going to get a lot worse. Unfortunately supply chains are a thing and ours are not robust enough.
What annoys me is this was foreseeable and people were warned.


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## Adam W. (31 Aug 2021)

Well. Yes and no.

At home in Denmark, we have also seen significant price rises and shortages for materials and as they don't have to worry about the Brexit, luckily, it must initially have been due to something else.
However, the UK is experiencing a supply chain crisis as pointed out above, so Brexit may also be pushing prices up too.


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## thetyreman (31 Aug 2021)

like farmers, the companies who pay these truckers aren't paying enough, so it only appeals to eastern europeans, and then they wonder why UK workers won't even apply for the jobs.

I am sceptical about prices returning to how it was before, but well see, it would be very welcome.


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## Richard_C (31 Aug 2021)

There are global supply issues affecting all, but the UK is likely to face more difficulty for EU sourced products.

If you are a producer in the EU and can't make enough to meet demand, who are you going to prioritise? The 27 countries where you can sell free of any tariffs, VAT complexities or import formalities, or the one country where you have to jump through hoops? The only reason you would deal with the odd one out is if you could generate a higher gross margin by putting your prices up.

It might change as production meets demand and producers look for volume sales wherever they can, but for now, why would any EU producer see the UK as a priority? Add to that the fact that our press and politicians have been rude about, and to, the EU, why will they bother?

So yes, Denmark will have seen shortages and price rises just like we have but they are likely to see a faster return to normal. 

We are beginning to reap what we have sown.


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## Droogs (31 Aug 2021)

It's about to get worse for most imported goods as so far the UK has not been applying any of the checks we are required to by law and international agreement. That will change in October when we must start applying these checks etc. Most industry bodies have been telling the government about this for a long long time who have just stuck their head in the sand as usual. The driver shortage has 2 main causes, the first is yes Brexit when most of the foreign drivers here left but also the bigger problem that on average UK national drivers are leaving the industry as they can get more money working for Lidl in-store per hour than driving (where the average rate is less than £10/h) without any of the associated drawbacks such as dungy hours and being away from home. Also The fact that if you are doing international routes then there is a good risk you will be robbed/assaulted and as happened 2 months ago murdered by crooks trying to get your cargo or by people traffickers trying to get clients into the back of your lorry.









39-year-old trucker killed after stabbing in French rest area


A 39-year-old Romanian lorry driver was found dead in the early hours of Sunday morning at a rest area on the A28 motorway in France’s Somme region. Th...




trans.info


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## Sandyn (31 Aug 2021)

I cycled past one of the timber yards (International Timber) in Grangemouth this evening. There were more bundles of wood than you could shake a stick at!!! So much of the stuff, you would think it grew on trees!


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## Felipe (1 Sep 2021)

The people of the wrong side of the pond are saying that prices are to fall soon since “timber futures” are dumping.
Assuming futures will match real economy and assuming yards and mills will ease on prices without being forced (by oversupply or regulation, ie)


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## Kimbo (1 Sep 2021)

Felipe, very interesting and I do hope you're right.


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## clogs (1 Sep 2021)

Can't understand it...as most soft wood comes from NON EU countries anyway....ie Russia and Finland....
practically all is shipped by boat.....
So this blaming Brexit is all bxxxxks.....
it's just the greedy middle men again....
If u think wood is expensive, try buying it here.....
Just found a guy who takes his big truck from Crete to the mainland and just loads it to the max.....apprently wood is about 5 times cheaper on the mailand....


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## RobinBHM (1 Sep 2021)

clogs said:


> Just found a guy who takes his big truck from Crete to the mainland and just loads it to the max.....apprently wood is about 5 times cheaper on the mailand...


you live on an idyllic island with 9 months+ a year of sunshine....do you think you are gonna get much sympathy about timber being a bit dear


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## RobinBHM (1 Sep 2021)

I would say timber pricing is more to do with closures of sawmills due to covid and a logisitics nightmare of ships, materials, containers all being in the wrong place.

brexit is an extra UK gift though....


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## sploo (1 Sep 2021)

clogs said:


> Can't understand it...as most soft wood comes from NON EU countries anyway....ie Russia and Finland....
> practically all is shipped by boat.....
> So this blaming Brexit is all bxxxxks.....
> it's just the greedy middle men again....
> ...


I guess it depends on the routes and bureaucracy involved in the selling/shipping; if (for example) Russia and Finland are set up to sell large quantities of softwood into the EU (i.e. all paperwork and trade rules in place) then the fact the UK is no longer an EU member would likely mean additional red tape in getting those deliveries into the UK (either via the EU or direct).


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## Adam W. (1 Sep 2021)

clogs said:


> Can't understand it...as most soft wood comes from NON EU countries anyway....ie Russia and Finland....
> practically all is shipped by boat.....
> So this blaming Brexit is all bxxxxks.....
> it's just the greedy middle men again....
> ...


Errrr.....

Finland uses the Euro as their currency. So it must be in the EU, no? And anyway, most of the redwood I have bought in the UK comes from Latvia and other Baltic states, which are also in the EU,


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## Droogs (1 Sep 2021)

Doesn't most of the timber destined for the UK usually get off-loaded at Rotterdam and then to the UK by lorry?


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## Blackswanwood (1 Sep 2021)

Droogs said:


> Doesn't most of the timber destined for the UK usually get off-loaded at Rotterdam and then to the UK by lorry?



There are quite a few ports in the Uk that handle high volumes of timber imports - Liverpool, Hull, Shoreham (handles a lot of Scandinavian softwoods) and one of the Peel Ports empire that they operate on the Medway. I don't know how it breaks down in terms of share but would be surprised if Rotterdam accounted for most.

It's not been uncommon over the last year for ships to dock in the Uk and not offload timber as intended as the price being offered by the good old USA had increased so much since they set sail that it made sense to keep on sailing across the Atlantic.

Brexit, Covid and increased demand all came together and created a perfect storm.

As someone has mentioned Lumber Future prices have fallen but according to Bloomberg this has sparked a lot of shelved building projects in the US to come back to life (increasing demand further) which may mean the roller coaster starts going up again.


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## RobinBHM (1 Sep 2021)

clogs said:


> Can't understand it...as most soft wood comes from NON EU countries anyway....ie Russia and Finland


our biggest source of softwood is 

Sweden 42%
Latvia 16%
Finland 14%

around 90% comes from EU

about 6% from Russia.


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## ikoz (2 Sep 2021)

very easy to blame brexit, but haulages knew the possibility that EU drivers could return home, and they would have had plenty of time to train drivers, to replace them, covid may have speeded up the exodus but there was still enough time to train drivers before covid hit


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## Blackswanwood (2 Sep 2021)

ikoz said:


> very easy to blame brexit, but haulages knew the possibility that EU drivers could return home, and they would have had plenty of time to train drivers, to replace them, covid may have speeded up the exodus but there was still enough time to train drivers before covid hit



I have a bit more empathy perhaps with hauliers. My recollection is that it was very difficult to predict what was going to happen and indeed the official line was that EU workers would stay. 

Interestingly it seems that there is an EU wide shortage of drivers which leaves me wondering where all our drivers went.


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## John Brown (2 Sep 2021)

ikoz said:


> very easy to blame brexit, but haulages knew the possibility that EU drivers could return home, and they would have had plenty of time to train drivers, to replace them, covid may have speeded up the exodus but there was still enough time to train drivers before covid hit


Isn't it similar to the fruit picking situation? UK residents aren't interested in being HGV drivers?


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## Adam W. (2 Sep 2021)

It seems the bigger companies with their own lorries are doing ok and the smaller outfits are having to put their prices up further to cover the cost of freight.

Lathams have 2x12 Southern yellow pine at £17/m delivered and Moss want nearly double plus £30 for delivery. 

Moss are expensive, but they let you select your own and will sell a short length. Plus they carry bits and bobs of bijou timber species for the lignin connoisseur.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Sep 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> ... the official line was that EU workers would stay.
> 
> Interestingly it seems that there is an EU wide shortage of drivers which leaves me wondering where all our drivers went.



Six million EU nationals applied for residency - there were only thought to be two million here.
And yes, if they're all at home why have their homes have shortages?
On the radio the other day a driver went to a large depot where they had major hold ups because 63 drivers had been pinged. This, strikes and the general incompetence at the DVLA have a lot to do with the problem.


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## Adam W. (2 Sep 2021)

Not all of those 6 million applications were from people currently in the UK, this was well reported at the time.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

clogs said:


> Can't understand it...as most soft wood comes from NON EU countries anyway....ie Russia and Finland....
> practically all is shipped by boat.....
> So this blaming Brexit is all bxxxxks.....
> it's just the greedy middle men again....
> ...


Well, all trade agreements were made by EU for all EU member to benefit. Now UK must secure deal, but.. no one is talking about green tickets adding value to Pound starting from now, as Honda stop selling diesel/petrol cars next year, trade with UK will be more competitive than with EU, while going throw World Bank.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Sep 2021)

Fair point - but it would still lead me to think there were way more here than was thought.
There really should be a system for counting people in and out - no work permit system could work without it.

Actually, it is Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) so if people who weren't here were applying for it the application was fraudulent. You can't remain somewhere you aren't.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Six million EU nationals applied for residency - there were only thought to be two million here.
> And yes, if they're all at home why have their homes have shortages?
> On the radio the other day a driver went to a large depot where they had major hold ups because 63 drivers had been pinged. This, strikes and the general incompetence at the DVLA have a lot to do with the problem.


The 2 million (1.6 + 0.37) number, is the number of skilled workers and benefit takers leaving UK due economical shift…
Well, it did happened before, and capitalism worked


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## Adam W. (2 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Fair point - but it would still lead me to think there were way more here than was thought.
> There really should be a system for counting people in and out - no work permit system could work without it.
> 
> Actually, it is Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) so if people who weren't here were applying for it the application was fraudulent. You can't remain somewhere you aren't.


I can apply for Danish residency from the UK if I wish, because I fulfill the criteria. And my family can do the same from Denmark, there's nothing fraudulent about it at all.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I can apply for Danish residency from the UK if I wish, because I fulfill the criteria. And my family can do the same from Denmark, there's nothing fraudulent about it at all.


All you need to do is to pay 15-30k annually for full time degree, own house/flat, or simply fill get hold of this forever-waiting work place British complain about taking their benefits


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Errrr.....
> 
> Finland uses the Euro as their currency. So it must be in the EU, no? And anyway, most of the redwood I have bought in the UK comes from Latvia and other Baltic states, which are also in the EU,











Difference Between the European Union and the Schengen Area


What’s the difference between the EU and the Schengen Area? Differences and similarities between the European Union and the Schengen Area Countries.




www.etiasvisa.com


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I can apply for Danish residency from the UK if I wish, because I fulfill the criteria. And my family can do the same from Denmark, there's nothing fraudulent about it at all.


Residency. Not right to remain.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

boschboy said:


> why are timber prices so high at the moment can not believe they have doubled



free market - no one mention that demand is high due to market was shut for year to finish all ~700.000 new houses, which no one will be able to buy, so ultra rich going to take it for half price into their housing association investments, than rent it out in times of inflation, and when they pump prices up after drying market, become even more ultra rich….


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## Adam W. (2 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Residency. Not right to remain.


Same thing, different name.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

do you also mean council tax, income tax, and vat are the same but just different name ??
You just pay it, why to care for details, right ?


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## Adam W. (2 Sep 2021)

I'm not getting your drift I'm afraid.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I'm not getting your drift I'm afraid.


Residency acts of law comes from EU and are permanent as per “you live here and like to stay that way”;
UK “Right to remain” you have right to stay as long as you keep RIGHTS to do so, if not, you are hunted down by HM Home Office and HM Borger Agency to be expelled from UK on your cost.
One of them is to not be in employment status over 24 months…. Regardless of Limited or Indefinite. 

Rights are given and taken as admin power see it fit.

PS. UK Passport and British second citizenship can be taken away too 

so my analogy to taxes: ALL DIFFERENCES ARE IN DETAILS….


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## John Brown (2 Sep 2021)

GregW said:


> Residency acts of law comes from EU and are permanent as per “you live here and like to stay that way”;
> UK “Right to remain” you have right to stay as long as you keep RIGHTS to do so, if not, you are hunted down by HM Home Office and HM Borger Agency to be expelled from UK on your cost.
> One of them is to not be in employment status over 24 months…. Regardless of Limited or Indefinite.
> 
> ...


One of my stepdaughters has indefinite leave to remain, and as I understand it, she is entitled to "be in employment status over 24 months", so I would be interested to see where you read that.
She's not EU, but US, maybe that's different...


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Same thing, different name.


Of course it isn't - you can't "remain" somewhere you aren't.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

John Brown said:


> One of my stepdaughters has indefinite leave to remain, and as I understand it, she is entitled to "be in employment status over 24 months", so I would be interested to see where you read that.


You misread what I wrote.

to KEEP RIGHTS you have rules that’s apply.

PS. I checked, for for Limited is 2 years “activity”, and for Indefinite is 5 years “activity”in UK. Of one of them is being in “employment status” that include job seeking for example.

All information are available on GOV.UK. When I finish all work I have to do, I might have tone to find documentation from Hone Office what is needed to successfully keep hold of this given right.


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## John Brown (2 Sep 2021)

GregW said:


> You misread what I wrote.


Fair enough. In my defence, it wasn't very clear. I still don't really understand what you're saying.
Still, whatever it is, it's probably not going to bring timber prices down.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

GregW said:


> You misread what I wrote.
> 
> to KEEP RIGHTS you have rules that’s apply.
> 
> ...



example is the Dutch ex-residents Jamaican family, father convicted drug dealer had permanent residency for him and his children, however not able to have Settlement Status, so whole family was deported or waiting to be…




John Brown said:


> Fair enough. In my defence, it wasn't very clear. I still don't really understand what you're saying.
> Still, whatever it is, it's probably not going to bring timber prices down.



hehe probably, You’re right on that one 
And apologise for off topic


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## Adam W. (2 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Of course it isn't - you can't "remain" somewhere you aren't.


Oh dear.

Both convey permission to reside in the country either temporarily or permanently. It was perfectly legal to apply for either temporary or indefinate leave to remain from outside the UK, and they were awarded depending on your status and if you fulfilled the criteria.

Upon brexit, all EU citizens who had been granted a UK resident permit beforehand were required to re-apply for leave to remain and this could be done legally from outside the UK, hence the high number of applications from outside the UK. 

I think that's enough to explain it clearly and I rest my case 'yer honour!


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## mikeprevette (2 Sep 2021)

Lumber merchants I've talked to mainly blamed the lack of staff and lorry drivers. All the ports are clogged up, even if supply has bounced back they can't get enough product. Compounded with a spike in demand due to everyone working from home and kicking off DIY.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> Both convey permission to reside in the country either temporarily or permanently. It was perfectly legal to apply for either temporary or indefinate leave to remain from outside the UK, and they were awarded depending on your status and if you fulfilled the criteria.
> 
> ...


If they do not have “activities” in UK, fir more than 2 years on Limited Rights, and over 5 years on Indefinite, they going to loose all Rights, and status ifs to everyone terminated.

The reason is the “permanent residency” based on EU laws, which is now terminated by Brexit.
All together there is no rights to PENSION CREDITS, which was given based on that rights. DWP savings


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

mikeprevette said:


> Lumber merchants I've talked too mainly blamed the lack of staff and lorry drivers. All the Ports are clogged up, even if supply has bounced back they can't get enough product. Compounded with a spike in demand due to everyone working from home and kicking off DIY.


Remember that whole building industry completing roofs the same time after lockdown…. And fitting PCV double glazing windows - all at once.


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## Blackswanwood (2 Sep 2021)

GregW said:


> Remember that whole building industry completing roofs the same time after lockdown…. And fitting PCV double glazing windows - all at once.


I’m a bit confused by this claim and how PCV double glazed Windows impact the price of timber? My wife is a director of a small regional housebuilder and they were doing a lot of other stuff rather than just completing roofs or fitting PCV (or PVC) windows after lockdown.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> I’m a bit confused by this claim and how PCV double glazed Windows impact the price of timber? My wife is a director of a small regional housebuilder and they were doing a lot of other stuff rather than just completing roofs or fitting PCV (or PVC) windows after lockdown.



I don’t know what to say 
Yes, a timber goes for roofing, glass goes into windows 

edit: but I can see the point. Domestic use, or small business, is nothing when comparing it to whole of building industry making/finishing houses the same time after lockdown.


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## Terry - Somerset (2 Sep 2021)

We are not alone in timber shortages and price increases. A very quick search shows the same is happening in Germany, France, US to name but 3.

UK will also have suffered from Brexit, but Covid is a common issue. Processes going from tree, to sawn and planed is complex - cut down tree, transport to sawmill, kiln dry, resaw to required sizes, transport to ports, then to constructon site, builders merchant and stores.

This needs people who are not locked down, ill etc. Building projects planned and in progress in March 2020 have all been delayed and need completion. Even if timber processors could have processed more lumber, they would have had neither the confidence nor cash flow to do so.

I suspect the demand spike will be resolved over the coming 6-9 months as supply catches up with a return to some stability. That major projects are impacting prices is no surprise - why delay projects worth millions for the sake of a timber price hike of thousands.


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## recipio (2 Sep 2021)

clogs said:


> Can't understand it...as most soft wood comes from NON EU countries anyway....ie Russia and Finland.



Ummm......... Finland has been a member of the EU since 1995. Being in the EU doesn't protect you from greed. Here in Ireland I paid €34 each for some polycarbonate roof panels last April, now they are €125 ☹ I refuse to pay the barstewarts and will postpone the job until the prices come back down.


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## GregW (2 Sep 2021)

recipio said:


> Ummm......... Finland has been a member of the EU since 1995. Being in the EU doesn't protect you from greed. Here in Ireland I paid €34 each for some polycarbonate roof panels last April, now they are €125 ☹ I refuse to pay the barstewarts and will postpone the job until the prices come back down.



Free market & capitalism  customer wants, customer pays.
Big have special discounts, small pay for that special discounts in hike prices.


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## D_W (2 Sep 2021)

Felipe said:


> The people of the wrong side of the pond are saying that prices are to fall soon since “timber futures” are dumping.
> Assuming futures will match real economy and assuming yards and mills will ease on prices without being forced (by oversupply or regulation, ie)


Yes on the futures - they dropped through the floor long ago. After that occurs, it's just a matter of the spot market catching up again (of course, the spot is very good at tracking the futures early when the futures price goes up) "we have to be able to pay for the next load!"

And slow on the other side "we have to pay for the expensive inventory" 

Wait, you just accounted for the expensive load twice and forgot the cheap one.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I think that's enough to explain it clearly and I rest my case 'yer honour!



In which case being law it should have been written differently. It shouldn't be ambiguous. I'd like to remain in The Seychelles. I've never been there, but by the bye.


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## D_W (2 Sep 2021)

I'd like to have residence in a house that's so large and owned by someone so wealthy that they wouldn't know or care that spouse, kids and I live there, or that I use the tooling and maintenance shop for a hobby. 

AT no cost to me, of course, and perhaps I could lift some petty cash here and there to put in my own retirement account and pay for my things.


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## Terrytpot (3 Sep 2021)

D_W said:


> I'd like to have residence in a house that's so large and owned by someone so wealthy that they wouldn't know or care that spouse, kids and I live there, or that I use the tooling and maintenance shop for a hobby.
> 
> AT no cost to me, of course, and perhaps I could lift some petty cash here and there to put in my own retirement account and pay for my things.


Oh,thinking of going into politics are we?


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## Adam W. (3 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> In which case being law it should have been written differently. It shouldn't be ambiguous. I'd like to remain in The Seychelles. I've never been there, but by the bye.


I'm sure you could do that if you fit their residency criteria of being a gazillionaire.


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## Val (3 Sep 2021)

Regarding timber prices: I've been in Italy this summer and price of timber (sheet goods or construction grade timber) is only marginally higher than before. 
In general, shops and supermarkets are full to the brim with all sorts of goods, local and imported, so no shortage of hauliers or products.
I assume in 6-9 months timber prices here will go down too, but in general I assume low stock of imported goods will persists as UK customs are going to be swamped for a long time because of inefficiencies and new red tape added by brexit.

P.S.: I think the brexit issue (and to be fair politics in general) has become too polarised as the voters are deeply divided - a bit like à la USA - so I think there's not much to discuss in a constructive way, especially in forums or social media. However, I would like to invite everyone taking part in this debate to please _please_ get informed as much as you can, through official and trustworthy channels. The issue may be polarised, but it still deserves to be fully understood because of its importance.


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## D_W (3 Sep 2021)

Terrytpot said:


> Oh,thinking of going into politics are we?



I hadn't even been thinking about that, but maybe I'm under-aiming. 

I could up the price of the food then, and get all kinds of free stuff and maybe let my kids sell some half million dollar "art".


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