# Handcutting Dovetails - A Question.



## Philly (23 Jan 2007)

HI Folks
I re-watched Rob Cosmans DVD "The Alan Peters Approach" on the weekend (and very interesting it is too) Rob was explaining how Alan taught him how to use the caliper method of laying out dovetails and then he said "shall I cut them or you?" Mr Peter's then take's Rob's dovetail saw and proceeds to cut the tails. All very exciting you say......
Watching Alan cut the dovetails was interesting. He first started the cut along the top (end grain edge) of the board and as soon as the line was established dipped the saw down to cut down the marked line on the front face of the board. I was watching him cut and noticed that he never took a stroke longer than about 60mm, using only the middle part of the saw. (You could tell this because wax had been rubbed along the side of the saw to lubricate it and only a small section was removed when sawing was complete).
I was quite relieved (but shocked) to see him cut like this. Remember - this is the chap who taught Rob C to cut dovetails, saw cut to saw cut.
I find when cutting joinery that if I take full strokes with a saw my accuracy goes out the window. I put this down to to me being out of practise (or "rubbish" :lol: ) I find it difficult to get the "locomotive" action going and keeping a dead flat forward/back motion. With my shoulder, elbow and wrist involved a certain amount of sideways rotation always happens.
So is it just me? Is this a waste of teeth on a saw? Should I get Mike W to make me a 4 inch long dovetail saw?? :wink: 
Cheers
Philly  
P.s. Is it just me or is Alan Peters furniture awesome (in a 70's manner)


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## David C (23 Jan 2007)

Philly,

Divider method I think! Described in my third book, brilliant wheeze and much simpler and quicker than any other, IMO.

It is worth remembering that Alan is now sadly very ill. It is not certain that that is how he used to cut dovetails when younger.

Amazing maker, immaculate work and what a volume of work. Some of the early seventies design is somewhat dated but I think his best stuff ages very well.

David Charlesworth


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## Paul Chapman (23 Jan 2007)

Philly":1xfh0a94 said:


> Rob was explaining how Alan taught him how to use the caliper method of laying out dovetails



Hi Phil,

I was with Rob (the Woodbloke one :wink: ) the other day and he showed me that method of laying out dovetails. Really great - and so simple 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (23 Jan 2007)

Philly":hqh46lxq said:


> He first started the cut along the top (end grain edge) of the board and as soon as the line was established dipped the saw down to cut down the marked line on the front face of the board.


That's interesting. I found my dovetails came on leaps and bounds once I stopped trying to do that and cut across the corner to establish both angles straight off.



Philly":hqh46lxq said:


> I was watching him cut and noticed that he never took a stroke longer than about 60mm, using only the middle part of the saw...
> I was quite relieved (but shocked) to see him cut like this....
> I find when cutting joinery that if I take full stroked with a saw my accuracy goes out the window.


Well I often do short strokes too, but often because a full stroke would take me to, and maybe beyond, the full depth of cut with no opportunity to wriggle a bit (not that I do that, obviously. Nope, right on the line every time... 8-[] )



Philly":hqh46lxq said:


> Is this a waste of teeth on a saw? Should I get Mike W to make me a 4 inch long dovetail saw?? :wink:


Would it not depend on the thickness of stock you were cutting? I mean a 4" saw might be great for single drawer sides, but what about cutting both sides of a 3/4" thick carcass? Perhaps what you're really finding is you need different sizes of dovetail saw for maximum efficiency? Is this, in fact, simply seeking justification for a bulk order to Mike? :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (23 Jan 2007)

Philly":3qn5099c said:


> Watching Alan cut the dovetails was interesting. He first started the cut along the top (end grain edge) of the board and as soon as the line was established dipped the saw down to cut down the marked line on the front face of the board.



Yep, this is exactly what I do most times. I find I need a sort of reference point at the front of the cut



> I was watching him cut and noticed that he never took a stroke longer than about 60mm, using only the middle part of the saw.



Does RC do this too?

Interesting. I tend to actually try and use the full length of the blade in an effort to cut through with as few strokes as possible as I hope this increases accuracy. This 60mm approach sounds like it might be worth a try - any excuse to cut some dovetails will do :wink: 



> So is it just me? Is this a waste of teeth on a saw? Should I get Mike W to make me a 4 inch long dovetail saw?? :wink:



Yeah, a speciality saw specifically for the forum :lol:


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## Lord Nibbo (23 Jan 2007)

Tony":2akzgdjn said:


> Yeah, a speciality saw specifically for the forum :lol:



Ummm... I wonder what it would be called? A Gloater perhaps? and how big? "mines bigger than yours" and it's got more teeth :lol: should we not do a poll we might get a discount off Mike for a bulk order :lol:


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## George_N (23 Jan 2007)

I don't want to do Mr. C out of a book sale (it is on my wish list) but how does the caliper method work for setting out dovetails?


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## woodbloke (23 Jan 2007)

Philly - cutting dovetails depends on many factors IMO and the quality of the saw is paramount and something you don't have to worry about :lol: . The grip on the handle should be firm but not fierce and the body stance should be such that your elbow and arm need to move in one 'plane', this is best achieved by standing slightly sideways to the bench front, left foot closest if right handed. Your eyes need to be ideally directly over the top of the blade and the line that you saw to should be dead vertical....and use _all_ the saw blade in a smooth light stroke. All you have to do then is saw vertically which ain't too hard. Use the divider method as advocated by DC as its just _so_ simple. Joints _should_ fit straight from the saw, but sometimes a little very careful tweaking is required ont the sockets _only_. This is how I taught kids to saw D/T's for 20 odd years and with some practice is does work.


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## bugbear (23 Jan 2007)

Philly":yg4h6j29 said:


> I find when cutting joinery that if I take full strokes with a saw my accuracy goes out the window. I put this down to to me being out of practise (or "rubbish" :lol: ) I find it difficult to get the "locomotive" action going and keeping a dead flat forward/back motion.



Small motions reduce the circular motions that pivoted elements (e.g. arms and legs) tend to generate, making them more straight line.

The smaller the segment of an arc, the more closely it approximates a straight line.

Of course, long strokes achieve more work 

BugBear


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## woodbloke (23 Jan 2007)

George_N":2gthzjka said:


> I don't want to do Mr. C out of a book sale (it is on my wish list) but how does the caliper method work for setting out dovetails?



Easier done with pics, will go out to the 'shop directly (Alf word) and take a sequence - Rob


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## woodbloke (23 Jan 2007)

Timber should of course be shot square and the shoulder knife marked in all round. Measure along the line from each side about half the thickness of the timber plus a couple of mm, mark and construct one large dovetail as shown in first pic below:






Decide how many tails are needed (3 narrow ones in this case) and set the caliper to roughly space off the distance needed across the end of the wood to obtain a narrow gap at the top of each pin. Place one point at one line and step off twice to make 2 dots as in the second pic starting at the _right_ hand side:






Keeping the setting the same, do the same from the _left_ hand side so that you will end up with two pairs of narrowly spaced dots in the centre of the timber, the first pair of dots have been made into a line in the third pic below:






Now simply mark out the dovetails from the two pairs of lines on the end of the wood as shown:











Clear as mud...easy peasy - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (23 Jan 2007)

A Master Class from the Master 8) 8) =D> 

Very helpful, Rob.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (23 Jan 2007)

While I have on occasion also used the callipers to mark off the tails, last night I was watching an interview of Krenov on Woodworks and was reminded of the opposing view he takes. He said that he found uniform placement of tails sterile. As we all are aware, Krenov has championed the placement of tails as reflecting in part art and in part improving strength. Not for him the Cosman/Peters approach.

Incidentally, I bought and watched the Alan Peters DVD when it first came out (about a year ago?). I was struck with how frail and ill Alan looked (although I had not seen him ever before). Alan barely made it through the presentation. Rob showed a very caring and protective manner. I must say that I was quite moved.

Rgards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (23 Jan 2007)

woodbloke":33fxbk5z said:


> Timber should of course be shot square and the shoulder knife marked in all round. Measure along the line from each side about half the thickness of the timber plus a couple of mm, mark and construct one large dovetail as shown in first pic below:



Do my eyes behold a Robert Wearing dovetail marking gauge?

BugBear


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## dedee (23 Jan 2007)

Derek, 
I rather cheekily agree. 
Of course the chances of me producing a DT that looks even a fraction similar to a machine made one are non-existant so I'll stick with the "uniform placement looks sterile" excuse.

Andy


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## woodbloke (23 Jan 2007)

Derek of Oz wrote:


> He said that he found uniform placement of tails sterile.


I agree and its quite easy with the dividers to amend the process as you proceed across the board so that the tails gradually get wider but the pin distance remains the same....this only looks effective on boards of over say 200mm wide IMO
BugBear wrote: 


> Do my eyes behold a Robert Wearing dovetail marking gauge?


Yup, about the best D/T marker that's not on the market...well worth the time and little effort needed to make it ...this one made to 1:7 slope - Rob


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## David C (23 Jan 2007)

Rob,

Splendid photos of the divider method!

Wish someone had showed me 30 years ago.

I learnt it from Rob Cosman, who got it from Alan Peters who got it from Edward Barnsley, (presumably).

How come Joyce who was a contemporary of Barnsley did not put it in his book?

The other methods available are far more cumbersome IMO.

David Charlesworth


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## David C (23 Jan 2007)

George,

Why not insist your local library get a copy? That's a sale of sorts.....

Alternatively cheap on Amazon.

best wishes,
David


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## mambo (23 Jan 2007)

woodbloke":3ftl8o8l said:


> Yup, about the best D/T marker that's not on the market...well worth the time and little effort needed to make it ...this one made to 1:7 slope - Rob



can we see it please with dimensions would be nice


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## Philly (23 Jan 2007)

Mambo
You need Robert Wearing's book "The Resourceful Woodworker" - page 53 has the plans. A great book with more jigs than you can shake a stick at. Get "The Essential Woodworker" at the same time, wonderful stuff.
Cheers
Philly


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## mambo (23 Jan 2007)

ok thanks philly  got them coming from amazon now


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## Routermonster (23 Jan 2007)

Hi All

A parcel from Amazon arrived today (SWMBO: "What's this, haven't you got enough books already?") ... 

In it were David C's third book on Furniture-making Techniques and Robert Wearing's "Making Woodwork Aids & Devices" (ISBN-10 1861081294 ... currently £5.93). This book has a description of Woodbloke's dovetail marker on Pages 49 and 50! 

And what with David's article on marking out dovetails using dividers and Woodbloke's excellent pictures above, I've got no excuse for not having a go!   

Thanks Guys.

Les


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## George_N (24 Jan 2007)

Rob, Thanks for the very clear tutorial. Deceptively simple but very effective. Like all really good ideas you're left thinking...now why didn't I think of that?...And thanks all for the book/DVD advice. I feel a bookcase project coming on (with dovetails, of course).


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## bugbear (24 Jan 2007)

mambo":3ms0fi7o said:


> woodbloke":3ms0fi7o said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, about the best D/T marker that's not on the market...well worth the time and little effort needed to make it ...this one made to 1:7 slope - Rob
> ...



Here's a "version" ...

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9690

BugBear :wink:


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## woodbloke (24 Jan 2007)

mambo":3i4gp2g8 said:


> woodbloke":3i4gp2g8 said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, about the best D/T marker that's not on the market...well worth the time and little effort needed to make it ...this one made to 1:7 slope - Rob
> ...









The marker is shown against a 150mm rule for comparison. Made from 3mm acrylic plastic (perspex), slots milled with a 6mm router cutter, couple of small coach bolts and wing nuts with an oddment of rosewood as the stock, though any half respectable timber would do...some care needed to file out the 1:7 slope of the triangle
Hope of some help

David - I have both the Alan Peter's book and Joyce's book and the divider method appears in neither of them as you say, which is odd to say the least - Rob


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## Alf (24 Jan 2007)

Okie-dokie, chillun', _why_ is it the best dovetail marker not on the market? Sure I could read why Bob Wearing thinks so, but user testimonials are preferable. At the moment I'm pretty convinced the one I use is the best, but my mind is open to persuasion otherwise.

Cheers, Alf


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## woodbloke (24 Jan 2007)

Alf wrote:


> why is it the best dovetail marker not on the market?


.....ooooerr, got to justify it now :-k . First and foremost, being a parsimonious sort of chap I resent slightly having to pay for one of these even though its a nice little trinket to own and probably works beautifully...Bob Wearing's excellent design cost about 20p to make. Second and foremost, its quite big to use, not fiddly. Third and foremost, if you ever needed to produce skewed dovetails (where the sides of the box, if that's whats being made, slope) then all that's required is to alter the stock to the correct angle. Fourth and finally, if you ever need to make _big_ dovetails, as on my bench, this little tool will mark them out.....Having said all that, a sliding bevel will do the same job :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (24 Jan 2007)

Rob showed me his dovetail marker when I visited him last week and he demonstrated his method of marking out dovetails. I must say, I was impressed with his marker. It felt very comfortable to use and I think the fact that it is made of transparent material and therefore doesn't obscure the work is an advantage. I was sufficiently impressed that I intend to make one like Rob's rather than buy one of the commercially available markers.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (24 Jan 2007)

Paul Chapman":1hctn8yj said:


> Rob showed me his dovetail marker when I visited him last week and he demonstrated his method of marking out dovetails. I must say, I was impressed with his marker. It felt very comfortable to use and I think the fact that it is made of transparent material and therefore doesn't obscure the work is an advantage. I was sufficiently impressed that I intend to make one like Rob's rather than buy one of the commercially available markers.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



Got your material for that Paul? :wink: :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (24 Jan 2007)

woodbloke":5dpbfato said:


> Got your material for that Paul? :wink: :lol:



Yes thanks :wink: :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## David C (24 Jan 2007)

Dividers and the thing Rob showed are surely the most efficient way.

Only you make the thing yourself as shown in my third book, or Joyce come to that.

Much as I like the Wearing device it relys on centre lines and the use of a square, and a ruler and a means of projecting all those parallel lines.

The thing marks square and sloped line from one device and with dividers you need no measuring.

David


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## mambo (24 Jan 2007)

did i mention i got a cnc router


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## Mittlefehldt (24 Jan 2007)

Just to add some more fuel to the fire, I use the divider method as advocated by Rob Cosman, and I have both angles of the LV dovetail gauges, plus a shopmade marking gauge similar to the Lie Nielson shown in the above link.

Where I do it different is, after I have marked the lines across the end grain I simply tilt the stuff using the guide to indicate the angle of tilt. Once that is done I simply align the dovetail saw with the cross lines and saw straight down, to the scribe line. Tilt the board the other way again aligning it with the same gauge and do the same to the rest of the lines.

In short I don't bother marking the sides, only the cross lines, and it works fine.


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## Philly (25 Jan 2007)

M
You are nearly at the Frank Klausz "eyeball-and-go" method by the sounds of it! :lol: 
Philly


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## bugbear (25 Jan 2007)

Alf":1gg085tw said:


> Okie-dokie, chillun', _why_ is it the best dovetail marker not on the market? Sure I could read why Bob Wearing thinks so, but user testimonials are preferable. At the moment I'm pretty convinced the one I use is the best, but my mind is open to persuasion otherwise.
> Cheers, Alf



Because it marks both sides of the tail at one placement. The size of the DT is adjusted by moving the stock up and down. (my version has a centre line marked on the stock).

So you mark the CENTRES of your DT's, place the centre line of the template on each mark, and inscribe both DT lines at one setting.

Hmm. (googling) This ones's interesting,. and related...

http://www.fine-tools.com/schmie.htm





I'm sure there used to be an expensive and higly gizmoid little template with movable (and interchangeable) pins, but I can't find it.

BugBear


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## Alf (25 Jan 2007)

Right, so it's mainly down to preference for whether you want your slope and 90° lines to be done "in one" or want the width of your tails done "in one" and on centres. I have a nagging feeling in a F&C (iirc?) article on it that the benefit of sizing the socket to the chisel size was touted, but no-one seems to think that a feature? Wasn't sure about it myself, and indeed I may be seriously mis-remembering the whole thing.

FWIW, I favour the Cosmanesque/'Spensive LN design 'cos I like removing that extra possibility of error creeping in when squaring across the lines with a separate square. I started out with a wooden version that works very well, but couldn't resist making a fancier one in acrylic:





Okay, truth be told I thought it'd be cool to use a dovetail to make a dovetail marker. 





For skews, this cheat seems to make life pretty easy - although I'm forced to slum it with a mini sliding bevel (a memento of the Good Woodworking Show at Ally Pally in, ooo, '97. Anyone else go? Sorry, I'm digressing again...)





Yeah, I can see the Wearing design has points in its favour, if they're the features you prefer. Best though? Nah, not convinced, gents. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (25 Jan 2007)

Alf":p63hc562 said:


> Okay, truth be told I thought it'd be cool to use a dovetail to make a dovetail marker.



Now that is cool, Alf, and nicely done 8) 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## David C (25 Jan 2007)

Bugbear,

I have the gizmo and never use it...

David


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## Wendell (26 Jan 2007)

bugbear":14tdovsz said:


> I'm sure there used to be an expensive and higly gizmoid little template with movable (and interchangeable) pins, but I can't find it.
> 
> BugBear



Are thinking of the one Kingshott shows in his dovetail video? It has two sets of pins ( 1:6 & 1:8 ) and cool looking brass knobs. He states that it was made by Richard Kell but I can't seem to find it anymore. I know I found it on the web like five years ago when I first saw the video. It looks like Kell is now producing a much simpler dovetail marker design instead.

Wendell


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## bugbear (26 Jan 2007)

Alf":2hdnie35 said:


> Right, so it's mainly down to preference for whether you want your slope and 90° lines to be done "in one" or want the width of your tails done "in one" and on centres.



Yeah - in truth, I think that DT marking is (actually) easy enough that all these solutions are probably over kill, and come down (as you say) to preferance, since there's no strong neccessity for them.

BugBear


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## Alf (26 Jan 2007)

bugbear":zh0z7aqk said:


> ... all these solutions are probably over kill...


And this has been an argument against since when? Did I miss a memo? :wink: :lol:


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## George_N (26 Jan 2007)

Alf, does your perspex template have the same angle on both edges ie both at 1:6 or 1:8 or whatever? I have some spare perspex that I might have a go with and I was wondering whether to make two or just one but with different angles on each edge.


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## Alf (26 Jan 2007)

George, I went with the same angle on both sides - 1:7 in my case. I think it might be too easy to make an error otherwise. 

Cheers, Alf


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## George_N (26 Jan 2007)

Alf":1k98rstb said:


> George, I went with the same angle on both sides - 1:7 in my case. I think it might be too easy to make an error otherwise.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I can certainly see the possibility of Mr Cockup coming to visit if I have two different angles. Do you use 1:7 for all your dovetails?


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## Alf (26 Jan 2007)

George_N":1u1np0y7 said:


> I can certainly see the possibility of Mr Cockup coming to visit if I have two different angles.


Sheesh, he's a permanent resident here... :lol:

Yeah, I kinda decided if 1:7 was okay for the 'Rat, it might conceivably be advantageous to stick to it for hand cut too, plus it looks okay to my eye. I'm not a big fan of the more obvious DT angle.

Cheers, Alf


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## woodbloke (26 Jan 2007)

I've used 1:7 for a while now....strictly speaking the finest work in hardwood _should_ be 1:8 but I can't see that the slightly steeper slope of a 1:7 makes allot of difference....might do when you're on the other sort tho' :wink: :lol: ....not that I am 






yet  - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (26 Jan 2007)

woodbloke":1sfbe64f said:


> ....might do when you're on the other sort tho' :wink: :lol: ....not that I am
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That one's about 1:1 I think :lol: :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (26 Jan 2007)

Alf":danj2i3m said:


> George, I went with the same angle on both sides - 1:7 in my case. I think it might be too easy to make an error otherwise.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Alf - I don't want and will _not_ have cock ups in my workshop at _any_ time :^o ....this is my drawer numbering system by the way #-o #-o - Rob


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## pidgeonpost (26 Jan 2007)

Woodbloke - the dovetails in your photo look great. Wish mine looked like that. I don't get to cut many, as most of the things I make simply don't strictly speaking have to have them (though dovetails could be used to good structural and decorative effect). This means that when I do need them, the first few are pretty poor, getting progressively better, culminating with being passable by the time I'm doing the last one.
Maybe I should prepare a bunch of practice drawer sides and get practicing.
Are there any magical tips for cutting the sockets? I tend to clamp the drawer front vertically in the vice, square the drawer side with it (keep it in place with another clamp or summat heavy) then mark with a small pointy Stanley knife.


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## Alf (26 Jan 2007)

Could have been worse, Rob. Could have been vee, aye, aye, aye, aye, aye... #-o What's the Latin for "bother"?  

Cheers, Alf


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## David C (26 Jan 2007)

I feel that 1:8 looks nice for single lap dovetails on thick drawerfronts in hardwood.

1:8 in thin hardwood at the back corner looks nearly parallel, so I use 1:6 there.

I deduce that thickness of work has a significant impact on the apparent slope angle.

Just my personal theory,

David

PS It has occurred to me that the Wearing jig would cope with canted hopper type boxes rather well. Not sure that the fixed type would cope and one might need two adjustable bevel settings.


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## syntec4 (26 Jan 2007)

> Alf - I don't want and will _not_ have cock ups in my workshop at _any_ time :^o ....this is my drawer numbering system by the way #-o #-o - Rob


[/quote]

Oh you think that's bad  

This will make anyone feel better. Go on, it's al right, laugh all you want






It didn't break off either  I cut it off..... 

Stupid &^(*&*^


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## Philly (26 Jan 2007)

What timber did you use for your doverails ,Syn? :lol: 
Just joking, we've all been there. Some of us have a season ticket.........
Philly


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## Alf (26 Jan 2007)

Ooo, I bet you swore. #-o


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## syntec4 (26 Jan 2007)

And it was all going so well.... 

God job I bought a few extra boards .. just in case :wink: 

On another note, what's to best method of cleaning up the bottom of the tails. My narrowest chisel is 6mm, and the bevel is not steep enough to push it through flat. I have to push the chisel in at an angle but this has a tendancy to undercut.
I think i might have to do a little sketch to explain what I'm on about? 

Cheers
Lee.


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## Alf (27 Jan 2007)

syntec4":12i72577 said:


> I think i might have to do a little sketch to explain what I'm on about?


I think you might :lol:


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## Mittlefehldt (27 Jan 2007)

pidgeonpost":1nq6srzm said:


> Woodbloke - the dovetails in your photo look great. Wish mine looked like that. I don't get to cut many, as most of the things I make simply don't strictly speaking have to have them (though dovetails could be used to good structural and decorative effect). This means that when I do need them, the first few are pretty poor, getting progressively better, culminating with being passable by the time I'm doing the last one.
> Maybe I should prepare a bunch of practice drawer sides and get practicing.
> Are there any magical tips for cutting the sockets? I tend to clamp the drawer front vertically in the vice, square the drawer side with it (keep it in place with another clamp or summat heavy) then mark with a small pointy Stanley knife.



What I do is what I saw Rob Cosman do at several woodshows. You put the pin board in a vice and line it up with a woodplane on its side. Once you have done that lay the board on the plane and align it with the pin board, or drawer front, mark your pins from the tail board and you have it, sounds funny now that I write it, or rather type it, but it works well.

The first Dovetails I did were for a box to store a Stanley Router Plane, and I discovered from that project that one must pay close attention to the orientation of the pins and tails as insted of a rectangle, when I tried to match up the four sides I had a Z instead. I recut and made it work but I still have that ugly bit of stuff around to remind me to pay attention to the orientation of the parts. It was in very nice Butternut to, SIGH.

James


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## Anonymous (27 Jan 2007)

Regarding dimensions, I was taught that the wide side of the pin is usually equal to 3/4 the width of the wood it is cut on.

I wonder if it was this formula that was found too sterile.

This is only my own opinion... I prefer not to see dovetails used as a "decorative feature" as I think they can distract the eye from the overall design.


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## woodbloke (27 Jan 2007)

Hazewood":1trfxms7 said:


> I was taught that the wide side of the pin is usually equal to 3/4 the width of the wood it is cut on.



.....about half the thickness plus about 2 or 3mm....roughly 3/4? - Rob


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