# Lie-Nielsen Straight Handled Saw



## Philly (21 Feb 2005)

Hi All
Had a delivery from Maine the other day-number one goody was this....





It is a stright handled crosscut saw. I have the L-N dovetail saw which I really like but was intrigued by this one as to how it would compare and perform.




Here's a comparison photo to give you some idea of it's scale.
The blade is narrower than the D-S and is cut with 14ppi crosscut teeth. It has minimal set and the brass back is pretty narrow and thin. In use I had to check that it wasn't set up like a Japanese saw! The blade being so thin had the tendancy to bend if you give it too much welly. The 14ppi is quite coarse (compared to my Pax dovetail saw) but it is much easier to start the cut than my D-S. It cuts a finer kerf and tracks like a beauty.





Here is a (bad) pic of the kerf it leaves. The ones on the right are the crosscut, the fatter ones on the left are the L-N dovetail saw. I was amazed how easy it was to use and how true it cut. As you can see it is perfect for cutting "skinny pins"! 
I was amazed by how well this saw works-it cuts quickly and accurately. It also lets the user know when it is happy-if you try and force the cut it chatters! Overall, this is the saw I recommend for fine work. It is a gem and reasonably priced ($80) This is definitely a well kept secret. 
If you're in the market for a great saw get your hands on one of these!
cheers
Philly


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## Chris Knight (21 Feb 2005)

Give me strength! :lol: 

Now you can trade in your redundant DS saw for something useful?


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## Alf (21 Feb 2005)

Oi vey. :roll: I thought too much time had elapsed since the last one...

Them's thin kerfs. Impressive. All you need to do is hacksaw off that silly handle and put on a decent one and you're set. :wink: 

Hang on a cotton-pickin'... _Number one goody_?! If you're gonna stretch 'em out, it'll go hard with you, chum...  

Cheers, Alf

P.S. C*ll*ct*r :twisted:


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## Philly (21 Feb 2005)

Ho, ho!
Now you gettin' Nasty! :lol: 
The Philster


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## Aragorn (21 Feb 2005)

Ooooo that looks nice!
Did you actually request the saw, or have you set up some kind of standing order? :wink:


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## Midnight (21 Feb 2005)

<wonderin if Mystic Meg can see coathooks an hyper-extended knicker elastic in Philly's near future...

Philly... yoo _*do *_realise that with such a vast collection of "right tools for the job" your excuses for nae comin up wi the goods are gettin thin on the ground...


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## Keith Smith (21 Feb 2005)

Philly have a heart, I've just bought a van and the tool budget is gone for the next year  

please stop tormenting me :lol: 

Keith


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## Frank D. (21 Feb 2005)

Philly,
Nice saw, you're almost set to cut some dovetails. All you need now is a REAL Japanese saw, not an American imitation, and your kerfs will be as thin as a piece of paper. Don't give up now, true success is just a saw away! :wink: :lol: 
Frank D.


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## kygaloot (21 Feb 2005)

For fine work, I find that a straight handle saw, with index finger on top, gives me better control. 

As to Frank's comment, I would be interested in hearing from someone who has both Philly's new gem and a Dozuki and how they compare. Further, does anyone with a Dozuki actually have the ability to sharpen it?

Jeff


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## Anonymous (21 Feb 2005)

Now that didn't take very long until you got your broadband (and gloat) sorted 

Very beautiful saw and I am NOT jealous :twisted:


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## Frank D. (22 Feb 2005)

Hi Kygaloot,
I don't have both so don't really know. I have the LN dovetail though, which I use for hard woods, and a few dozukis which I use for soft woods. I find the western-style saws cut too fast in pine and don't give me as much control as the slower-cutting Japanese saws. However, in hardwoods I get a lot of chatter from the Japanese saws, at least from the ones that I have, although I hear some are better than others for hardwoods, so it might just be my saws. Most people don't sharpen their own Japanese saws and very few professionals do it in the States (perhaps less than ten). Usually you have to send your saw back to a metate (saw sharpener) in Japan, and he sends it back when it's done--sometimes six months later. That's why you need a spare saw when you buy a high-end Japanese saw that can be resharpened. I buy the kind that have disposable blades. They still last quite long (manufacturers can temper them a lot harder when they are disposable), they cut well, and they are not too expensive to replace.
Frank


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## Philly (22 Feb 2005)

Frank/Jeff
This saw surprised me big time-I spent all weekend tingling!! :shock: 
I like Japanese saws and have a few. Whilst I enjoy tinkering with them they never totally win me over for accurate work in hardwoods.
I have a Spehar tenon saw as well as the L-N's and these really are the business.
The crosscut was a revelation though-it was such a joy to use and so EASY! No steep learning curve like the dovetail saw.
If you get a chance try one out-I'm sure it will be the "Next Big Thing"!
Cheers
In love,
Philly


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Mar 2005)

Philly, your review is interesting. My understanding is/was that the LN gent saw was a rip 15 tpi, but I see on the LN website that it is now available in 14 tpi crosscut and 10 tpi rip. I, too, have the LN Independence dovetail saw, which is 15 tpi rip. I find this saw quite difficult to use (hard to start) and much prefer my vintage John Cotterill 8", which is also set 15 tpi rip. The LN has a more aggressive rip angle (teeth are more vertical) than the John Cotterill, and this makes a big difference. In fact, the angle is getting closer to that of a crosscut, and it is probably this that accounts for what appears (from your description) to be such a similarity between the LN Gent and the John Cotterill. I have toyed with the idea of refiling the teeth of the LN but just could not bring myself to do so, argung that I will learn to cut with it (and that I probably just was not skilled enough to use it yet). 

By contrast, I find my Japanese saws just so easy to use - hardly any learning curve at all. Unfortunately these do not stand up to the tough Aussie hardwoods I use, so some years ago I decided to reserve their use to softwoods.

The other dovetail saw I enjoy is a Crown 8" Gent, which is 17 tpi rip. This cut straight lines right out of the box and is a bargain at its price. I use it for fine cuts in hardwood.

Now that you have raised my awareness to this LN, it looks like I will just be forced to get one. For research purposes, you understand!

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Charley (2 Mar 2005)

Welcome to UKW Derek


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## Philly (2 Mar 2005)

Ha! Nice one Derek!  
You certainly won't regret it-I have been cutting some practise skinny pin joint recently and the saw is just so easy to use (makes me look good :lol: )
regards
Philly


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## Aragorn (4 Mar 2005)

Philly
Just to follow up on Derek's comment - please can I ask, what made you decide on the crosscut 14tpi instead of the 15tpi rip?
Do you plan to use this saw for DTs? If so, would it be less suitable than the 15tpi?
If not for DTs, then what will be the saw's main use (_apart _from, er, _enhancing _the odd photo or two! :wink


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## Philly (4 Mar 2005)

Aragorn
I have the L-N dovetail saw (15tpi rip) and saw (no pun intended) the crosscut-it intrigued me :roll: 
I have been using it a fair bit recently and in reasonably thin stock it rules for dovetails!
Cheers
Philly  
(you know you want one....)


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## Aragorn (4 Mar 2005)

Noooo Stop it!!! :lol: 
I really like the look of this saw, and would love to have a really decent dovetail saw.
Can anyone advice on better options, and one whether to go with the 15tpi rip or risk the 14tpi crosscut??


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## Chris Knight (4 Mar 2005)

Aragorn,
It really is hard to beat one of the small Japanese back saws (about 7 inches blade length) for dovetails and they cost about £10.

Of course if what you really want is a gorgeous looking thing that you can also use for dovetails, then that is another question!

Seriously, sawing can be such a personal thing, I suggest you try three or four different saws before deciding.


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## J.A.S (4 Mar 2005)

Given Philly's impressive photo, and Derek's positive experience with a neo-xcut DT saw, it begs the question of whether the current vogue of using rip-cut dovetail saws is helpful.

Whilst, of course, dovetailing is logically a ripping operation, generations of craftsman have used cross-cut saws to make the joint. That, surely, can't be an accident.

The fineness of the cuts in Philly's photo is enough for me to hold fire on having some old saws filed in a rip profile. 

Does anyone else have similar thoughts?

Jeremy


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## Chris Knight (4 Mar 2005)

Jeremy,

Yes, I have reservations about a rip profile for dovetailing. In dovetailing, the saw is held pretty well at right angles to the face of the timber, whereas in a ripping operation (on sawhorses with one knee on the board) the saw is at a significant angle to the face of the wood.

You only have to tilt the saw whilst cutting to know that there is a sort of "sweet spot" - an angle at which the saw cuts most happily and this is not 90 degrees in my experience.

I have a LN dovetail saw and use it but if I were honest I guess I would say I am actually more accurate with a cheap Japanese back saw (crosscut). At 90 degrees the Japanese saw just cuts with less vibration and seems much happier. Both track straight and I can saw to a marked line with either but if there were dovetail cutting competitions, I'd enter with the Japanese saw.


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## Alf (4 Mar 2005)

J.A.S":3sj6k4yn said:


> Whilst, of course, dovetailing is logically a ripping operation, generations of craftsman have used cross-cut saws to make the joint. That, surely, can't be an accident.


Ah... Lots and lots of theories can be rolled out on this one. From "if you go far enough back _all_ saws were filed rip actually" (see Adam Cherubini's argument at the bottom of this page f'rinstance. Unfortunately "The Tool Chest of Benjamin Seaton" doesn't mention if his saws were filed rip or X-cut but just as a fyi, as I have the book out, his DT saw was 19ppi which is pretty damn fine - wouldn't like to have to have filed that... :shock through to "X-cut is more flexible so later craftsman, who maybe had only one back saw, would opt for that configuration". Personally I would be willing to bet a large percentage of users probably didn't even know there was a difference between rip and X-cut. It just got filed like it always had; maybe a hybrid X-cut/rip to take Adam's theorising a little further? I really don't know, but personally if I'm going to be sharpening 15ppi I'd sooner it was rip; X-cut is much tougher to do. :wink: 



J.A.S":3sj6k4yn said:


> The fineness of the cuts in Philly's photo is enough for me to hold fire on having some old saws filed in a rip profile.


Nothing to do with rip or X-cut and everything to do with set and blade thickness I believe. I have the most bootiful brass-backed Sorby (IIRC) which has an incredibly thin "plate" and it has a kerf to rival a Japanese saw. 15ppi rip. Unfortunately the very thinness has meant it's got a curve to it after the neglect of previous years, so it's limited to thinner stock.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (4 Mar 2005)

Just to add to what I said above.

When you think about it, the saw tips in dovetailing are "planing end grain". In a true ripping operation, The saw is really "planing long grain". A huge difference in actual planing operations.


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## J.A.S (4 Mar 2005)

Alf,

you've clearly put me in my place :lol: !

However, my comment that,


> The fineness of the cuts in Philly's photo is enough for me to hold fire on having some old saws filed in a rip profile


was not meant to imply that I thought the x-cut was _responsible_ for the kerf's fineness. Rather, my point was that such results can be achieved with a cross-cut configuration, despite the current view that only a rip profile will do. Thus, why bother with a rip-cut DT?

Does that make sense?

Jeremy


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## Philly (4 Mar 2005)

Just to add some thoughts...
When I first got the saw I had to REALLY check that it was the cross-cut and not the regular rip. There is minimal set and the teeth are VERY close in profile and angle to the rip dovetail saw.
The biggest difference to me was the ease of starting the cut-you have to learn the knack for starting the rip saw, whilst the cross-cut just goes from the off.
I wish I could get you lot round my workshop and give you a go-I'm very excited about this saw, and am sure that it will become a very popular saw in years to come. For the money (roughly £40) the saw is cheap-compare other "quality" saws at this price range and you'll see what I mean. 
Looks like you'll have to wait until Tools 2005 otherwise  
cheers
Philly


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## Alf (5 Mar 2005)

J.A.S":3qxrnk7n said:


> Alf, you've clearly put me in my place :lol: !


Sorry. Not the intention; just a brain (for want of a betterword) dump.



J.A.S":3qxrnk7n said:


> However, my comment that,
> 
> 
> > The fineness of the cuts in Philly's photo is enough for me to hold fire on having some old saws filed in a rip profile
> ...


Yep, it does. It's simply back to the best tool for the job argument. It's a rip cut, so use a rip saw. Heck, you can cut DTs with a hacksaw if you want, but it's not the "optimised tool" for the job. Alas I can't find Pete Taran and Patrick Leach's original announcement of the IT saw on the Old Tools List which set the whole rip saw thing going, or indeed any explanation of why _they_ went for a rip configuration. But I would bet it's the rip tooth for rip cut reason. And like I said, we may be looking at this all wrong anyway. Perhaps the question should be "why bother with a X-cut?".

Philly, the ease of starting the cut is all in the rake angle of the teeth, as I'm sure you're aware. X-cut always have a more friendly angle (about 15 degs) while rip can even be as low as 0 degs, which is very hard to start but very quick cutting. Don't know what angle LN use, but if it's very low that'd explain why there are so many reports of the rip ones being hard to start. So take a file to it... :wink: Although maybe you're going to sell it now?  :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Mar 2005)

It may be interest to read the very latest edition (Issue 46, March 2005) of the _Australian Wood Review_, a monthly woodworking magazine (pretty good one I might add). There is an article in which 10 dovetail saws are reviewed. These include the Lie Nielsen Independence, Adria, Pax 1776 and Pax D8 in one group, the LN Gents (15 tpi rip) and Pax 8" (20 tpi rip) in another group, and 4 japanese style saws in the last group (Ikeda, Bridge City, Gyokucho, and Veritas).

In group one, LN, Adria and Pax 1776 rated identically - all excellent to hold and use, but also all were equally difficult to start. 

Of particular imprtance to our discussion were the comments about the two gent saws. Briefly, the Pax outpointed the LN, both on feel (the long, thin handle of the LN came in for criticism) and start (clearly this LN was no easier to start than the pistol grip version). I do suspect that the review was written before the new LN gent saw options became available. Note was made of the aggressive rake of the LN teeth (11 degrees) verses the greater number of teeth (20 tpi) and less aggressive rake (17.5 degrees) of the Pax. (I suspect that the Pax, here, and my own Crown are likely to be very similar saws). 

In the final count, the most user friendly saws were the Ikeda and Bridge City (with warnings given about using them in softer woods only). With the pistol grips saws, preference was given to the Adria and the Pax over the LN since they were significantly cheaper. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Chris Knight (5 Mar 2005)

Apropos starting a cut with the LN and saws like it, I find quite the best way is NOT to start on the far side and draw the saw backwards but to be bold and make a decisive forward cut across the whole width of the workpiece. This way there are enough teeth in contact with the wood for a smooth motion, the blade doesn't bounce (off the cut line) and all proceeds in sweetness and light so to speak.

Just do this when you haven't had too much coffee!


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## Frank D. (5 Mar 2005)

I follow Tom Law's advice and start the cut at 60°, which is almost pointing to the ceiling when the board is upright. I also use my thumbnail as a stop. A rip saw is more difficult to start, and maybe takes more practice and warming up to control, but I like the way it just slices through tough woods like butter.
The advantage of a rip over a crosscut is that, while more difficult to start, the rip saw cuts faster and thus should track straighter because it can't wander as much. My Japanese crosscut saws have trouble ripping through hard woods and, while the kerf is thin, they wander quite a bit so the kerf ends up much wider than on crosscuts.
Frank


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## Philly (5 Mar 2005)

Starting the cut with the rip saw isn't too difficult-just a bit of a knack to get it right! I find that the saw rubs out the line before the cut is fully started sometimes-a bit annoying!
Cheers
Philly


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## Alf (5 Mar 2005)

Derek, thanks for the heads up on AWR - looks pretty good and I'm tempted to get an antipodean view of the woodworking world. (Works out about £23 for a year's sub, UK folks.)

Fwiw, half my saw starting troubles disappeared when I started taking virtually all the weight of the saw at the start of the cut. Like all things, it seems to be largely a matter of practice though. Wish I could just remember that _before_ starting on a proper DT and warm up on a practice cut or two... :roll:  

Cheers, Alf

Who really needs to acquire a nail or two for this sort of thing... :lol:


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