# Spindle moulder or router table?



## countrybumpkin

Hi knowledgeable folk
Still loving this forum, so much knowledge out there. 
a question.
I intend on making some basic looking oak windows, will be double glazed (no special profiles just chamfers to look like puttied windows) 
What would you guys and gals recommend I could get a way with to machine the main body of the frames and casements? Looking to purchase a spindle moulder or router table less than a grand. 
I am a chippy by trade, worked in a few joiners shops so no how to use machinery safely. 
any help and suggestions much appreciated 
thanks


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## Doug B

Definitely a spindle moulder if you’re doing a lot of rebating, it’s much fast & leaves a cleaner finish on the timber with far less breakout, don’t get me wrong you can use a router table for windows I have in the long distance past but the spindle makes it so much easier.


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## countrybumpkin

Doug B said:


> Definitely a spindle moulder if you’re doing a lot of rebating, it’s much fast & leaves a cleaner finish on the timber with far less breakout, don’t get me wrong you can use a router table for windows I have in the long distance past but the spindle makes it so much easier.


Thank you for your reply. 
that was the way I was leaning. Would you recommend any particular brand below £1k? I have looked at secondhand, but the moving of it would be an issue. 
thanks


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## Doug71

I had one of these for a while, bought it used off Gumtree for about £200 and sold it on for the same a couple of years later.

Performed much better than I expected and light enough to chuck in the back of a car. Look a bit dated now but worth watching out for one.



ELECTRA BECKUM SPINDLE MOULDER - TF 100


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## baldkev

Ive got an old axminster spindle i bought last year. The main thing to consider is actually tooling.... mine came with nothing. I now have a euro block, some cutters. I want a rebate block, vari angle block and wobble saw..... but it all costs  so aim for a 30mm bore and if possible get something with tooling


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## countrybumpkin

Doug71 said:


> I had one of these for a while, bought it used off Gumtree for about £200 and sold it on for the same a couple of years later.
> 
> Performed much better than I expected and light enough to chuck in the back of a car. Look a bit dated now but worth watching out for one.
> 
> 
> 
> ELECTRA BECKUM SPINDLE MOULDER - TF 100


Definitely will keep a look out as I picked up a elektra beckum plainer thicknesser. Amazing bit of kit.


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## countrybumpkin

baldkev said:


> Ive got an old axminster spindle i bought last year. The main thing to consider is actually tooling.... mine came with nothing. I now have a euro block, some cutters. I want a rebate block, vari angle block and wobble saw..... but it all costs  so aim for a 30mm bore and if possible get something with tooling


Thanks for the advice


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## Devmeister

The shaper or spindle molder. As said the 30 mm is the way go. Get a cutter block that will take a variety of steel knives. Many of these heads or blocks come with a variety of knives with most likely the ones you need. Router tables are the fad but I think the English term is “a bit of a bodge”. Shapers cut differently and once you see how, you will never go back. Many smaller shapers also have collet spindles to run the occasional router bit. I run a router bit to cut blind dado grooves every once on a while.


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## TRITON

Spindle moulders are by far the most dangerous machine any of us can operate. Anything goes wrong it happens fast and violently. So shaw guards, or any such guarding that prevents you from getting close to the cutter block is paramount. This is not a machine to take lightly, no matter who confident or experienced you are. 
Small cuts in multiple passes are very important. Too big a cut can result in a total disaster, not only to the component, but to yourself. So limiters are the order of the day, and modern tooling, not some giant block you found on ebay.

Stay safe out there ladies


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## Spectric

I can understand how a big industrial spindle moulder is better because having seen one at work in a local timber mill they are impressive but for the home woodworker will a smaller version be any where near as good? I had always thought they came into their own when you wanted to produce say skirting in a large batch, but if they are better and can take router bits then why does anyone buy a router table?


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## Mrs C

Spectric said:


> I can understand how a big industrial spindle moulder is better because having seen one at work in a local timber mill they are impressive but for the home woodworker will a smaller version be any where near as good? I had always thought they came into their own when you wanted to produce say skirting in a large batch, but if they are better and can take router bits then why does anyone buy a router table?



Cost, size, weight and power supplies are why people buy router tables. And like anything, once you have used a spindle you wouldn’t want to go back to a router table, except for small work.

The cast iron bed of a spindle and the additional power makes it a lot easier to get good consistent cuts over longer lengths of timber.

Also, as per the above post, the spindle requires a huge amount of respect and quite rightly should frighten the average hobby woodworker.


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## Devmeister

The spindle molder is the queen of the shop but I can understand why some think it’s dangerous.

The split fence was designed to do a jointed cut. The infeed fence is set back a bit from the out feed fence like on a jointer. The issue in doing a jointed cut is the gap in which the cutter rests. A small work piece can get sucked into the gap and thrown about. You will need to check your diapers when this happens.

Most cuts especially with beginners do not need to be jointed so you you would use a slab of day 6 or 12 mm MDF as a fence cover. Move the fence back to let the cutter peak out. This gets you the advantage of both safety and a zero clearance fence.

shaper cutters differ from router bits by having way different hook and relief angles. They run slower and can take much deeper cuts and don’t burn the wood like router bits can.

smaller shapers often use collet spindles allowing them to use router bits. Here you have a machine that works like a router table.


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## Devmeister

Router tables are a fad in modern woodworking. Their principle is that of a shaper. It allows the occasional woodworker to do simple small shaper operations without having to resort to a shaper.

I just read the MCLS router table lift advertisement. You can now raise and lower your router bit using an app on your smart phone.

Personally I have issues with the modern arms race on the industry especially the hobby market.

You get lured into this false belief that a router can do anything. Then you bolt one to a table. Now you need a box full of expensive cutters. Oh but you need a special fence. But now you need a precision lift. But it’s still a pain so now you need a digital lift that runs off your iPhone. Etc etc etc

At the end of the day ask yourself what you wish to make and how deep you want to go into this world.

On some drawers I make, I actually use a wood bodied grooving plane to cut my bottom dados.

Not because I am old fashioned but because the groove width and depth and location are preset in the tool. Grab the plane, a few strokes and I am done. No messing with cityets, shims, fence positions etc. Judy grab and go.


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## Devmeister

Are shapers dangerous? I saw one fellow cutting veneer for musical instruments but didn’t have a bandsaw.

so he took the fence off the shaper and installed a 12 inch circular saw blade. He would run the board thru the shaper, flip the board and run it again as he lifted the veneer sheet free.

no fence…. No guards… nothing! Clearly this is an accident looking to happen. It’s not the shapers fault. It’s the judgement of the operator!


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## recipio

A spindle moulder excels at machining joints - and you will need a sliding table for that. I would also suggest a power feeder which actually makes the machine a lot safer to use. I bought a cheapo' Deft' machine based purely on price ( £600 ) which has neither and now regret it .
You should find a machine on the secondhand market with these features ?


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## Spectric

Devmeister said:


> I just read the MCLS router table lift advertisement. You can now raise and lower your router bit using an app on your smart phone.


The design team have lost their way, they are just doing something because they can and not because it is a functional requirement.


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## TRITON

I'd the fence move when doing deep moulding in oak. Completely my own fault, didnt crank it down hard enough, 3 phase minimax.
Was about 1/2 way along an 8' section when it spat it back out. Left the machine at a high rate of knots. Took out a small cheapo bandsaw, knocking it clean off the bench some 5' away and embedded itself about 12" into a wall about 12' away.
The bandsaw wasnt repairable. It was terminally injured.
Because i've been trained in college i feed from the front, and therefore wasnt standing it the firing line as more unfamiliar with the dangers might well have been.

My boss in that shop isnt trained, he's a designer but not trained in a machine shop. Panel raising a long section he machined off the top of three of his fingers beyond the first knuckle.


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## clogs

there are other makes and some even bench mounted.....
I have a little Kitty for working away.....
single phase, 30mm shaft.....
it's not industrial but is OK for the odd shop fitting jobs....
u can buy a good mixed blade kit for not a lot.....and semi specials can be had for £20 a pair or less.....loads on line......
I have a 4-5HP shaper at home....


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## Ollie78

Spindle, definitely for Windows and stuff.
I have made windows with a router table and it was annoying.
Get a power feed as well.

Ollie


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## TRITON

+1 for power feeds.
Not only for safety but for a consistently clean cut.


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## countrybumpkin

Spectric said:


> The design team have lost their way, they are just doing something because they can and not because it is a functional requirement.


Same as the new bloody pressure washer that you can change the pressure using an app, just a gimmick. Ridiculous. And EE’s new broadband connect 100 devices, when will this silliness end. Sorry rant over.


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## Spectric

It all started when Tv's got a remote, from then on a lot of people wanted to remain stationary whilst controling everything and it will not be long before we have fart sensors that automatically turn on the extractor!


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## baldkev

TRITON said:


> Because i've been trained in college i feed from the front, and therefore wasnt standing it the firing line as more unfamiliar with the dangers might well have been.


Do you mean the cutter was spinning away from you? So for instance, if you are in front of the machine, feeding it in ( fence on the right ) was the cutter rotating towards you and into the fence, or cutter spinning backwards / away from the fence?


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## Devmeister

For me the shaper is the queen of the shop. The jointer is about accuracy. It sets the tone for all other machines. The planer does well planing to thickness.

No other machine is as capable and versatile as a shaper with the possible exception of my Wadkin PK table saw.

My current shaper is a 1968 Oliver 287. The spindle does not tilt and I am using a home made fence from the previous owner. While it’s a nice fence made of wood I am slowly replacing it with a reproduction of an original fence. That will be a series on YouTube.

Shapers are great for joints but you don’t need a sliding table. You will need a shop made sled however that rides the fence. Doing a coping cut on the end of a rail is to risky without one! That applies to router tables as well.

Pattern shaping is shaping using a guide bearing. Often with a fence removed. It’s not only an art form but an advanced technique I don’t recommend to a new shaper user. Often you need to make pattern jigs with hold downs for this. This is when you see the true power of what a shaper can do. But take baby steps to get comfortable first.

A power feeder is nice. Set up correctly the feeder moves the work item thru the shaper but also forces it into the fence. It gets you a consistent finish but also aides in blocking the cutter from your fingers. I use an old festo feeder about a third of the time.

There are some operations where a router table excels. For example cutting blind dados. That is because you need an end mill style cutter like an up cut or down cut straight router bit. But a collet spindle on the shaper takes care of this so it’s a waste to have both a shaper and a router table.

Tiny pattern router bits are useful in doing small repetitive tasks. Again solved with the collet spindle.

while all machines are loud the router is the worst. While routers have their use I don’t like the extremely loud whining noise. Shapers are much quieter but still loud,


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## Devmeister

Shapers often can run forwards or backwards. This is an advanced topic!

Conventional milling versus climb milling. If you have ever had a router run away from you then you know what climb milling is!

The problem is that climb milling often yields cleaner cuts. But you need to control the cut. In climb milling you often use cutters that spin the “wrong” direction with power feeders. Don’t try this without a power feeder. And for gods sake don’t run a cutter backwards! Climb milling is awsome but as I said it’s an advanced topic. Get comfortable with the shaper first using conventional milling.


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## TRITON

baldkev said:


> Do you mean the cutter was spinning away from you? So for instance, if you are in front of the machine, feeding it in ( fence on the right ) was the cutter rotating towards you and into the fence, or cutter spinning backwards / away from the fence?


Im standing in front to the right hand side feeding in right to left. Moulder is spinning anti clockwise.

What happened is the left side of the fence wasn't tightened down on that side, so pivoted backwards exposing the entire cutter block.
Bit of a brown trouser moment I can tell you 
Plus I was alone in the workshop at the time and there's no phone. Workshop is on an old farm(ex Chicken shed) So finding someone to get me to hospital could have been tricky.
But you learn the lessons the hard way and with luck don't lose fingers.

I approach every machine like its a bomb waiting to go off, check everything,stance,nothing to tangle the feet. infeed clearance, outfeed clearance as in will as the length goes through is it clear to pass right out. and I thought i had torqued the fence clamp enough, clearly though I hadn't.

The one that really scares the willies out of me is the ring fence. I've been about boats too long and to me its what a propeller would look like. I know everything is screwed down, and its a jig set up but the though of it not being there(like in a router table) scares me silly. So much so I try to design straight square furniture


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## Devmeister

Respect and Fear are two differing concepts. If your afraid to use the machine you have no dominance over the machine. Respect means you understand what it can do. I NEVER let anyone loose if I detect fear! I will not work for a boss who shortcuts common sense and has no respect for the machine.

Accidents don’t just happen. They are always preceded by a sequence of events leading up to them. If you find yourself taking short cuts to finish faster, it’s time to stop!


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## Devmeister

The one that got me lifting my eye brow was the over arm support.

In older shapers, you often had huge cutter blocks. Sometimes 12 in to 16 in. These needed an over arm support bearing from above.

Boxes with box joints would be done by stacking up 20 or more groovers with spacers. You load a side in the sled and run it thru.

it’s like facing a monster with lots of shiny teeth!


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## Devmeister

countrybumpkin said:


> Same as the new bloody pressure washer that you can change the pressure using an app, just a gimmick. Ridiculous. And EE’s new broadband connect 100 devices, when will this silliness end. Sorry rant over.



The industry caters to the newbies who are bright eyed and hungry to learn. They would go casters up with us old farts. What burns me is the suggestive need for an arms race in woodworking especially in the small shop space and hobby space.

For every modern development there are a few old school ways to do the same job. But they don’t tell us about them do they!

The strange thing about COVID is that it had forced many to slow down and think for themselves. Many have delved into vintage woodworking also called renascence woodworking.

The side effect here is that vintage tool makers like Lie Nielsen can’t keep their tools on the shelf! Everything is sold before each batch is finished. So I see this as a golden awakening.

I even have begun a new batch of molding planes as a result.

In the hobby space, you work on a single piece. Work at creating something while expanding your skills. For those of us who have worked in the commercial world, it’s totally different and often anything than enjoyable.

so while a LN plane is expensive, it is a quality tool that will outlast you! A digital router table will be junk in less than ten years. No software updates and computer chips that are not available.

When my 1968 planer needed bearings, I went to a bearing supplier who had them on the shelf cheap.

So I feel we all need to slow down and think about what we’re doing. The internet has brought tons of old school techniques out of hiding and many folks on forums are always willing to assist those who want to learn.

The Covid years will go down as the golden age of renaissance woodworking.


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## TRITON

Devmeister said:


> Respect and Fear are two differing concepts. If your afraid to use the machine you have no dominance over the machine. Respect means you understand what it can do. I NEVER let anyone loose if I detect fear! I will not work for a boss who shortcuts common sense and has no respect for the machine.
> 
> Accidents don’t just happen. They are always preceded by a sequence of events leading up to them. If you find yourself taking short cuts to finish faster, it’s time to stop!


Calm yourself mate, im a trained and qualified professional furnituremaker. I know exactly what im doing.


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## Devmeister

TRITON said:


> Calm yourself mate, im a trained and qualified professional furnituremaker. I know exactly what im doing.


in the first commercial shop I worked in, we had an SLR. Straight Line Rip saw. The owners son got hit my s kick back right in the golden marbles. Blood everywhere. From that day on we had to wear Kevlar aprons when using the SLR. Still don’t understand how that one happened


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## TRITON

Devmeister said:


> The owners son got hit my s kick back right in the golden marbles.


That is a good example. and clearly there he must have been standing in entirely the wrong place to feed a saw.
He should have been standing at the corner, loading in, not directly behind and in line with the blade.



Devmeister said:


> Respect and Fear are two differing concepts


Indeed, but you missed out the third and most important, and one to be very aware of and to treat like its a puckered up leper aiming for a big slobbery kiss.
OVERCONFIDENCE.
You can be overconfident in many things, driving is one of the biggest. We even have sayings related to this affliction - Biting off more than you can chew.
Overconfidence has been called the most "pervasive and potentially catastrophic" of all the cognitive biases to which human beings fall victim

What you need is to be aware of what you are doing. When you are scared of it, and i dont mean 'Fooked' if im going near that' type of scared you take note of what you have to do, where the dangers lie, how to avoid and that is an automatic way of thinking.


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## Devmeister

The problem with a single blade SLR is there lack of a fence. The blade is mounted from above with a tractor from below. You have a laser that aligns your cut line. So you wind up standing where you shouldn’t as you line up the laser. The tractor grabs the board and away you go. Sometimes you move the board to deal with defects also. But once the tractor had the board it won’t let go. Like I said I don’t understand how it happened.

The only cure for overconfidence is experience. I will not touch jobs today that I jumped on when O was 20!


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## TRITON

Sure you're not thinking about something else. I've yet to see any saw without a fence, and in fact googling it brings up every straight line saw as having one.


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## Devmeister

The older SLR saws had a stumpy little fence not very useful and often not used. It is assumed that the edge of a rough cut board would not have an accurate edge. So the tractor grabs the board and insures the cut is straight.

The stumpy fence will set the tone of the cut but if your standing ten feet behind a 4 inch fence, do you really think it’s going to be accurate?

SLRs are used to cut rough boards into billets for moulders.A moulder having 4 to 6 heads


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## TRITON

We call them planers.

Pretty much being replaced by this type of thing now
Very nice, but well outside my humble budget.
Starting price about $13,500(£10K)
They pretty much make spindle moulders 19th century antiques


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## Devmeister

This is a typical SLR with one blade



This is a typical moulder having 6 heads.



This is a shaper also called a spindle molder.



This is a jointer also called buzz planer.




And this is called a planer also known as a thickneser.




The logosol is unique in that it is a planer equipped with an edger saw having the ability to accept molding heads. Logosool builds machines used to saw boards from logs so edgers are important in that they cut the live edge of fresh lumber.

The problem is jointing. In a molder, your first head is the lower jointing head followed by your left and right side cutters followed by your upper planer head. The other heads are auxiliary profile heads.

The logosol has no jointing head from what I can see. Do your bed rollers are set for rough timber instead of accurate timber.

One of the coolest combo machines I have seen isn’t new. The Wadkin RM. it’s a jointer planer with the ability to accept molding heads. First built around the 1920s. I think some were made into the 70s but don’t quote me.

The spindle shaper still stands as one of the most versatile machines. Check out the options from Wadkin and Robinson!


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## Spectric

An interesting topic and having looked at a lot of other info it still raises the question of if the shaper (spindle moulder) is such a good tool then why does anyone use a router table. Looking at the obvious differences then the router table is a lighter machine using smaller cutters and requiring multiple passes to make a profile wheras the shaper can often do it in one pass so the shaper must have a much more powerful motor than just the 2400 watts found on a router. Looking at the more entry level machines they do not have more powerful motors so is this advantage now lost? We know that router cutters are not cheap but tooling for the shaper appears to be of similar cost, but with replaceable cutters becomes more cost effective than the one piece router cutter. I can see the advantage of a large cutter head because with a greater mass it should produce cleaner cuts at lower speeds and offer more flexabilty providing the machine has the power so is it a case of a decent router table can meet the needs of most home woodworkers on a single phase supply because although the shaper may be a better option it is more expensive and may need the three phase supply. 

Looking at Wealdons range of tooling it does seem a much cheaper option if you are a heavy user because a head for £80 and pairs of cutters range £13 to £26 which is cheaper than buying some router cutters once you have outlayed for the head and a much wider choice of profiles. So maybe a cheaper entry level shaper with less power may not have the advantage of single pass cuts but with such a choice of lower cost profiles whilst still retaining the ability to use existing router cutters it is a great option but still does not answer my initial question, if anything it could appear a lot of people could have made the wrong choice because of insufficient knowledge.

You can also fit a sanding drum, may not be a bobbin sander but could replace one to save space so yet another bonus.





__





Sanding Drum







www.wealdentool.com





Maybe not all is lost, Wealdons do a range of arbours and heads that imitate the shaper, still not as cheap though and I don't like the amount of cutter height above the table.





__





About Mini Mould







www.wealdentool.com


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## Devmeister

The shaper is an induction motor. The router is a universal motor.


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## peter-harrison

Spectric said:


> I can understand how a big industrial spindle moulder is better because having seen one at work in a local timber mill they are impressive but for the home woodworker will a smaller version be any where near as good? I had always thought they came into their own when you wanted to produce say skirting in a large batch, but if they are better and can take router bits then why does anyone buy a router table?


Hi Roy, they don't usually take router cutters unless you have a special spindle to take them (usually only available for Felder etc)
It's all about scale really. You ca


TRITON said:


> We call them planers.
> 
> Pretty much being replaced by this type of thing now
> Very nice, but well outside my humble budget.
> Starting price about $13,500(£10K)
> They pretty much make spindle moulders 19th century antiques



I have a Logosol spindle/shaper. I would like one of those four cutter things but no way would it replace the spindle. No ring fence, no sliding table, no tilt.. I could go on but you get the gist I hope.


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## Doug71

Even though some of the spindle moulders can take router bits they often don't spin fast enough for the smaller bits, a spindle moulder can spin about 10,000rpm max but a router will be about 20,000rpm.


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## clogs

if that Logosol was 13 grand ...? I think it needs to have another spindle for a spiral planer head...(not those straight line cutters)....that way I could see where the money went....
to me it does seem a lot of money for a well made tin box...
I may be wrong.....
I still miss my Wadkin EQ........


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## Spectric

clogs said:


> if that Logosol was 13 grand .


It should have at least Tersa knives or some fit and forget knives and not the potential issues with setup using some lump of ali.


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## Jar944

Used spindle moulders are usually less expensive or very similar than well setup router tables (at least over here)


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## Jar944

Spectric said:


> An interesting topic and having looked at a lot of other info it still raises the question of if the shaper (spindle moulder) is such a good tool then why does anyone use a router table.



Hobbyists tend to shy away from spindles. That thought tends to be backed by "youtube professionals" and other forum contributors talking about things they have no experience with. It seems every time the router vs spindle topic comes up (on most hobby targeted forums), They always say they are:
1. Scary
2. For production only
3. Expensive to buy and tool up.
4. Slow to setup
5. Eat fingers/arms/hands or your first born child.



Ask a cabinet maker and you will get a different answer.


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## guineafowl21

I’ve never had a router table, but I do like a spindle moulder. Probably the most used machine in my shop. For example, in building a simple chairside table recently, it got used for:

Template shaping of the leg curves
Apron tenons, their haunches and bevels
Apron arches, again with template
T&G for the top
Roundover of the top.

Once the cutting list is produced, it’s pretty much the mortiser and the spindle that do everything.

It’s a 4hp Cooksley that I picked up for £370 inc. power feed. No sliding table, but a simple plywood jig replaces that. It’s quiet enough to use without ear protection, and produces shavings, rather than dust like a router would.

Best advice against mishaps is to go through a quick ‘cockpit drill’ as per Roy Sutton - briefly check everything’s locked off, spindle/cutter free to move, speed setting correct. It takes about 5 seconds and is now second nature.


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## countrybumpkin

Spectric said:


> It all started when Tv's got a remote, from then on a lot of people wanted to remain stationary whilst controling everything and it will not be long before we have fart sensors that automatically turn on the extractor!


Patent pending


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## countrybumpkin

Devmeister said:


> For me the shaper is the queen of the shop. The jointer is about accuracy. It sets the tone for all other machines. The planer does well planing to thickness.
> 
> No other machine is as capable and versatile as a shaper with the possible exception of my Wadkin PK table saw.
> 
> My current shaper is a 1968 Oliver 287. The spindle does not tilt and I am using a home made fence from the previous owner. While it’s a nice fence made of wood I am slowly replacing it with a reproduction of an original fence. That will be a series on YouTube.
> 
> Shapers are great for joints but you don’t need a sliding table. You will need a shop made sled however that rides the fence. Doing a coping cut on the end of a rail is to risky without one! That applies to router tables as well.
> 
> Pattern shaping is shaping using a guide bearing. Often with a fence removed. It’s not only an art form but an advanced technique I don’t recommend to a new shaper user. Often you need to make pattern jigs with hold downs for this. This is when you see the true power of what a shaper can do. But take baby steps to get comfortable first.
> 
> A power feeder is nice. Set up correctly the feeder moves the work item thru the shaper but also forces it into the fence. It gets you a consistent finish but also aides in blocking the cutter from your fingers. I use an old festo feeder about a third of the time.
> 
> There are some operations where a router table excels. For example cutting blind dados. That is because you need an end mill style cutter like an up cut or down cut straight router bit. But a collet spindle on the shaper takes care of this so it’s a waste to have both a shaper and a router table.
> 
> Tiny pattern router bits are useful in doing small repetitive tasks. Again solved with the collet spindle.
> 
> while all machines are loud the router is the worst. While routers have their use I don’t like the extremely loud whining noise. Shapers are much quieter but still loud,


Thank you


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## countrybumpkin

Devmeister said:


> The industry caters to the newbies who are bright eyed and hungry to learn. They would go casters up with us old farts. What burns me is the suggestive need for an arms race in woodworking especially in the small shop space and hobby space.
> 
> For every modern development there are a few old school ways to do the same job. But they don’t tell us about them do they!
> 
> The strange thing about COVID is that it had forced many to slow down and think for themselves. Many have delved into vintage woodworking also called renascence woodworking.
> 
> The side effect here is that vintage tool makers like Lie Nielsen can’t keep their tools on the shelf! Everything is sold before each batch is finished. So I see this as a golden awakening.
> 
> I even have begun a new batch of molding planes as a result.
> 
> In the hobby space, you work on a single piece. Work at creating something while expanding your skills. For those of us who have worked in the commercial world, it’s totally different and often anything than enjoyable.
> 
> so while a LN plane is expensive, it is a quality tool that will outlast you! A digital router table will be junk in less than ten years. No software updates and computer chips that are not available.
> 
> When my 1968 planer needed bearings, I went to a bearing supplier who had them on the shelf cheap.
> 
> So I feel we all need to slow down and think about what we’re doing. The internet has brought tons of old school techniques out of hiding and many folks on forums are always willing to assist those who want to learn.
> 
> The Covid years will go down as the golden age of renaissance woodworking.


Definitely agree with slowing down


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## woodieallen

Meanwhile, back on topic....if you have never used a spindle moulder before then please...go on a course. Remember...routers rip off fingers, spindle moulders a hand.


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## baldkev

As doug says, cutter speed is important. My little ( old ) axminster spindle has the router collet spindle ( lots of machines have these including wadkin, jet etc ), but i haven't tried it yet due to the speed difference. It might be ok. Ive got a lock mitre bit which i recently used ( in my router ) which would be easier to adjust in the spindle moulder



TRITON said:


> OVERCONFIDENCE



Which leads to complacency 



Spectric said:


> wheras the shaper can often do it in one pass so the shaper must have a much more powerful motor than just the 2400 watts found on a router.



I think the mass of the block makes the difference. Like using a half inch touter over a quarter, the half inch bits carry more mass. My axminster is i think 2000w? And i think my router ( hitachi m12 ) is 2200w? But the spindle can remove material quicker


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## deema

woodieallen said:


> Meanwhile, back on topic....if you have never used a spindle moulder before then please...go on a course. Remember...routers rip off fingers, spindle moulders a hand.



Modern spindle moulder tooling has exactly the same amount of cutting blade projection as any router bit ie beyond the limiters. The ability to cut off flesh is the same for either machine. Routers are seen as ‘user’ friendly, and spindles gave a reputation from the old blocks and cutters that were used……and by accidents caused by using cutters without limiters.


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## Spectric

I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the router table has gained popularity not because it is the better tool but because the plunge router has been around a long time and at some point someone put one under a workbench with a fence and it all progressed from here, but was that the right path of progression? 

Having thought about this and thinking about differences between these two machines then once a router table becomes a motor in a lift then it is more spindle moulder than router apart from the different tooling. I have never looked inside a spindle moulder but would assume the spindle is belt driven from the motor and that it works along similar principles to an upside down pillar drill that allows height adjustment, and if you want a tilt facility then the whole motor / spindle assemby tilts. If someone was looking at buying a router table setup then given all the info about a spindle moulder and both demonstrated would they still buy the router table? Perhaps someone like @Peter Sefton who has taught woodworking might have some thoughts about such a choice and whether spindle moulders were used in his workshop.


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## guineafowl21

baldkev said:


> I think the mass of the block makes the difference. Like using a half inch touter over a quarter, the half inch bits carry more mass. My axminster is i think 2000w? And i think my router ( hitachi m12 ) is 2200w? But the spindle can remove material quicker


Routers are generally powered by brushed universal motors, whose high wattage comes from high speed, but low torque. Induction motors on spindles are the other way around, and they give you much more cutting power.

For example, I have a cheapo 180W (1/4hp!) induction powered drill press that wipes the floor with my 750W (1hp) screeching brushed handheld drill, when it comes to drilling large holes in steel.


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## guineafowl21

Spectric said:


> I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the router table has gained popularity not because it is the better tool but because the plunge router has been around a long time and at some point someone put one under a workbench with a fence and it all progressed from here, but was that the right path of progression?
> 
> Having thought about this and thinking about differences between these two machines then once a router table becomes a motor in a lift then it is more spindle moulder than router apart from the different tooling. I have never looked inside a spindle moulder but would assume the spindle is belt driven from the motor and that it works along similar principles to an upside down pillar drill that allows height adjustment, and if you want a tilt facility then the whole motor / spindle assemby tilts. If someone was looking at buying a router table setup then given all the info about a spindle moulder and both demonstrated would they still buy the router table? Perhaps someone like @Peter Sefton who has taught woodworking might have some thoughts about such a choice and whether spindle moulders were used in his workshop.


Some years ago I was looking for a router table, but was put off by the amount of money you had to spend on ‘added extras’, which were really essential. Many are supplied unpowered, and without a decent lift mechanism or fence/dust extraction, and lacking a good cast iron top. By the time you’ve built your own table, you could have got a fairly decent spindle.


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## Spectric

guineafowl21 said:


> Some years ago I was looking for a router table, but was put off by the amount of money you had to spend on ‘added extras’, which were really essential. Many are supplied unpowered, and without a decent lift mechanism or fence/dust extraction, and lacking a good cast iron top. By the time you’ve built your own table, you could have got a fairly decent spindle.



The cost of a decent router table can be some investment but looking back to when I first got one I only paid a quick glance at spindle moulders because I thought they were for production workshops and making skirting and such in quantity but basicaly lack of knowledge and taken away by the wave of router table users. It also becomes more expensive because often your first router table is just to get you into that market but then you realise that it needs upgrading to deliver better. If / when the next woodworking show happens it is something that I will take a closer look at.


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## deema

A router table is just a baby spindle moulder, some of the benefits and a lot of downside IMO. A router has a tiny spindle compared to a spindle moulder (SM) a SM will typically have at least a 30mm spindle which is located in very sturdy and stiff housing usually with big beefy bearings. A routers bearing can best be described as tiny and are not designed for accurate spindles, being usually just common garden bearings I.e. no preloading etc.
A SM can and should be used to take big bites out of the wood, so moulding is done in one pass. A router can’t handle the forces and the cutters have limited waste capacity so multiple cuts are required to achieve the same result. SM cutter blocks are big, carry mass as does the whole system which produces a far better result than a router cutter held in a router body, you get less chatter.
SM blocks are relatively cheap, especially if bought secondhand. They also hold their value, so I look on them as putting money in the bank…..they earn about the same interest! SM Cutters (HSS) are cheap, far cheaper than a router cutter doing the same job. I can get a custom set of cutters made for around £50. That’s any moulding I want. Standard 40mm Euro cutters are around £10 with an initial investment of a further £10 for the limiters. 
SM are solid, and old machines with cast iron tops, heavy duty fences that don’t move or wear like some flimsy aluminium extrusion fences for routers budget new SM reduce the likelihood of kickback. Add a powerfeed and you probably have one of the safest machines in the work shop. Routers in the other hand are seen as less dangerous and operators hands are often seen mm from the cutters. 
You can buy a secondhand say a Sedgwick SM3 with a decent powerfeed for less than a typical router table setup. It takes about the same room and is far more versatile. It will also hold its value, and probably increase in value over time. There are larger machines, which dont sell for much more, and I would also advocate getting the largest you can accommodate. Wadkin, Sagar, Sedgwick, SCM, as examples, don’t be put off by 1”1/4 (31.25mm) spindles, the tooling is readily available, and secondhand is far cheaper than 30mm. To start off, a rebate block and a profile cutting block will do 95% of most things, secondhand can usually get these and more with the machine. If buying a machine secondhand try to ensure you get a machine that comes with the shaw guards and a circular work fences.


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## Sporky McGuffin

guineafowl21 said:


> Some years ago I was looking for a router table, but was put off by the amount of money you had to spend on ‘added extras’, which were really essential. Many are supplied unpowered, and without a decent lift mechanism or fence/dust extraction, and lacking a good cast iron top. By the time you’ve built your own table, you could have got a fairly decent spindle.



I'm not disagreeing with most of this, but I'm not sure I could get a 200kg+ spindle moulder into my workshop without hiring a couple of scaffolders - it's up 2 1/2 flights of steps. The router table came in bits I could carry on my own.


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## dzj

It's true what deema says about the cutters. They can be inexpensive.
If you get in the heavier coping/tenoning stuff, or door and window sets, you'll
be paying for such tooling as much as a decent used SM costs.
Even if you don't do such work, over the years you accumulate a bunch of different cutters usually
worth more than machine itself. Then there's the powerfeed... 
All in all, it's worth it.
(it doesn't mean a RT doesn't have its place in shop.)


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## Doug71

I paid £350 for my Wadkin spindle moulder including tooling (although you wouldn't want to use some of it ) in an auction about 3 years ago, absolute bargain


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## Avery

Router tables are fine but spindle moulders are better. If i just want to chamfer an edge id rather set up the router table then a spindle moulder. The answer is both really. Im in a shared workshop , until recently we had a spindle moulder (Felder) and also we all had our own router tables.
Set up time and tooling costs...If you do the same large operations over and over the answer is spindle moulder, if you find yourself doing detailed work ( we are all cabinet makers) and constantly changing operations and cutters like i do i tend to stick to the router. Quick set up time let alone the cost of all the initial tooling. 
Get a spindle with a tilting shaft.
All the crapola for a decent router table can run to a grand , mine did. In which case a spindle starts to look good. 
I wouldnt settle for less than a felder. can be pricey.
Tough call. Im 15 years with both and i still cant answer that question.
for windows and doors , spindle
fine furnitue router table


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## guineafowl21

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I'm not disagreeing with most of this, but I'm not sure I could get a 200kg+ spindle moulder into my workshop without hiring a couple of scaffolders - it's up 2 1/2 flights of steps. The router table came in bits I could carry on my own.


 I didn’t consider that! You’d be alright with my first spindle, a cheapie Charnwood W030 - no more than washing machine in weight. A little rough round the edges but did me proud, and a gentle introduction to the machine.


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## Jar944

Avery said:


> Router tables are fine but spindle moulders are better. If i just want to chamfer an edge id rather set up the router table then a spindle moulder. The answer is both really. Im in a shared workshop , until recently we had a spindle moulder (Felder) and also we all had our own router tables.
> Set up time and tooling costs...If you do the same large operations over and over the answer is spindle moulder, if you find yourself doing detailed work ( we are all cabinet makers) and constantly changing operations and cutters like i do i tend to stick to the router. Quick set up time let alone the cost of all the initial tooling.
> Get a spindle with a tilting shaft.
> All the crapola for a decent router table can run to a grand , mine did. In which case a spindle starts to look good.
> I wouldnt settle for less than a felder. can be pricey.
> Tough call. Im 15 years with both and i still cant answer that question.
> for windows and doors , spindle
> fine furnitue router table



I wouldn't limit myself to Felder, My smallest spindle is a model 511 (same as all the other east asia 511s) that is a decent little machine (3.7KW, 330kg) it's not as nice as the Italian, German or even Polish machines. However it is very capable within its capacity and was relatively inexpensive.


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## heimlaga

In my oppinion (small scale part-timer) a good full size spindle moulder is a machine worth having for anyone who for one reason or another must count his hours or put some sort of value on his time.

Spindle moulder tooling tends to be expensive and the justification of that cost defines the point at which it becomes viable to get one. A mayority of hobbyists (not all) would not run a spindle moulder enough to justify the cost of tooling. A very productive hobbyist or almost anyone who earns money working wood certainly does run it enough to justify the cost.
That is my oppinion at least.
I use my spindle moulder at least 20 times as much as I use my router table. There are some jobs that the router table cannot do properly or safely and for them I need the router table. I owned and used a spidle moulder for almost 10 years before I found it worth the cost to get a router at all. Then it took a year or two before I built the router table.

I have no statistics to back it up but at a glance it seems like those who talk down spindle moulders eiter have never learned to use one or have owned a too small and lightweight one.
In my oppinion a spindle moulder has to be large and solid and powerful enough to really be worth it's cost. I see no point in buying one that weighs under 300 kilos and has a motor of less than 2,2kW. If money is tight an old pre-war Jonsered or Robinson is a way better investment than a new lightweight spindle moulder. If money wasn't an issue I would take a new-ish professional grade machine with tilting spindle any day but in the reality where we live our lives money is always an issue in one way or another. Therefore one has to have on's list of priorities. A heavy solid frame and a large cast iron table and a powerful motor are more important in my oppinion than all the modern bells and whistles. More important than a tilting spindle. More important than guards because guards can be made for and retrofitted to almost any old spindle moulder. Two speeds are enough. Three is better. Almost any old spindle moulder can be converted fron one speed to two speed by installin a (rather expensive) two speed motor or installing a larger single speed motor and a variable frequenct converter.


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## Peter Sefton

Spectric said:


> I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the router table has gained popularity not because it is the better tool but because the plunge router has been around a long time and at some point someone put one under a workbench with a fence and it all progressed from here, but was that the right path of progression?
> 
> Having thought about this and thinking about differences between these two machines then once a router table becomes a motor in a lift then it is more spindle moulder than router apart from the different tooling. I have never looked inside a spindle moulder but would assume the spindle is belt driven from the motor and that it works along similar principles to an upside down pillar drill that allows height adjustment, and if you want a tilt facility then the whole motor / spindle assemby tilts. If someone was looking at buying a router table setup then given all the info about a spindle moulder and both demonstrated would they still buy the router table? Perhaps someone like @Peter Sefton who has taught woodworking might have some thoughts about such a choice and whether spindle moulders were used in his workshop.



I have had spindle moulders and router tables in my workshop over the years both with and without students. They both have their benefits but can be used for different things. I loved my spindle moulder and power-feed, fantastic for commercial furniture making and joinery but I sold it and now only have my router tables. The router table is much safer and easier to set up than a spindle, for the variety of smaller detail work I now do or teach the router table is perfect.

When I had full time students they would be back and forth using the router table within a few weeks of joining the workshop, they only started using the spindle moulder in the third term and under constant supervision. I have kept all my spindle tooling, a couple of grands worth just incase I get a spindle again, if I do get one it will be a decent size and quality, not underpowered or lightweight. I have used some big spindles over the years, the scariest was a small Kity so light weight-when breaking through the fence it felt very unsafe.

Just been preparing for next weeks course, the students will be grooving for a 2mm inlay on timbers less than 400mm long, perfect for a router table, it would make no sense to get home woodworkers pushing these through the spindle moulder.


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## deema

@Peter Sefton that’s exactly the sort of job I would do with say a 4mm groover on a spindle with a powerfeed. Keeps your fingers completely away from anything spinning and sharp. I’m guessing the router cutter was raise from underneath to the required depth and highly likely for most people they would push the stuff over it against the fence, no doubt passing their hand over the cutter. Kick back and it all gets ratter messy 
I really don’t understand why people consider a router table safer than a spindle. I have not seen a logical rationale for the perspective.


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## TRITON

Theres a nice Kity 626 here. £250 start with a single bid on it.
All the bits inc a sliding table set up. Looks good.








kity 626 spindle moulder with sliding table and lot of extra accessories | eBay


kity 626 spindle moulder with sliding table and lot of extra accessories and tools.<br><br>This Spindle Moulder has been used in a workshop and is in perfect working order. Only selling due to needing a larger machine.<br><br>Comes with Cutter blocks, Circle Fence, Bed Inserts, Spare sliding...



www.ebay.co.uk


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## Peter Sefton

deema said:


> @Peter Sefton that’s exactly the sort of job I would do with say a 4mm groover on a spindle with a powerfeed. Keeps your fingers completely away from anything spinning and sharp. I’m guessing the router cutter was raise from underneath to the required depth and highly likely for most people they would push the stuff over it against the fence, no doubt passing their hand over the cutter. Kick back and it all gets ratter messy
> I really don’t understand why people consider a router table safer than a spindle. I have not seen a logical rationale for the perspective.



@deema I would be interested to know how the cut you describe would cause kick back on a router table?


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## Ollie78

I think its a lot to do with the scale of the work being produced. Trying to put a 10mm square bit of wood through the spindle is a bit sketchy, but you can't really do a 55mm thick door stile through a router table in one pass either. 

Ollie


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## deema

Ollie78 said:


> I think its a lot to do with the scale of the work being produced. Trying to put a 10mm square bit of wood through the spindle is a bit sketchy, but you can't really do a 55mm thick door stile through a router table in one pass either.
> 
> Ollie


That’s interesting, both machines will produce the same cut. You would use a sacrificial fence on the spindle so only expose the cutting bit of the cutter. You would use some form of jig to hold the work. Now, on a router, you probably can’t use a sacrificial fence as the cutter is too small so more of the cutter is exposed, and in all likelihood the operator would just push it through with their hands. The SM is far safer and pushes you into best practice.


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## Ollie78

deema said:


> That’s interesting, both machines will produce the same cut. You would use a sacrificial fence on the spindle so only expose the cutting bit of the cutter. You would use some form of jig to hold the work. Now, on a router, you probably can’t use a sacrificial fence as the cutter is too small so more of the cutter is exposed, and in all likelihood the operator would just push it through with their hands. The SM is far safer and pushes you into best practice.


They could likely produce the same cut. 
My example was more to illustrate appropriate/ intended use.
In my workshop it would be quicker to set up the router table for a small ovolo mould on a thin bit of stock rather than put a sub fence on the spindle and dial it in, if you tried to run that little piece just as you would on the router table it will likely just smash it to bits.
I have no router bits that will do a 55mm moulding for a window or door and certainly wouldn't be able to do a matched scribed tennon on the router table without some serious hassle. Not saying you can't just maybe its not the best.
Also my spindle is large and cast iron but the router table is smaller and made of wood, so far less sturdy for large work.

Another thing is custom ground knives are affordable but custom router bits not so much.

Ollie


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## deema

I know I’m biased, I personally think routers are one of the most dangerous machines most people use. They seem to lull people into a false sense of security compared to other bits of kit. The most dangerous I think is a hand held power plane. Most of us curl our fingers under a hand plane to act as a fence…….you only do it once on a power plane. Anyway I digress. 

I can’t say I have done a 10mm square bit of stuff on the spindle, but 12mm for window beads I have lots of times, and can definitively say that it doesn’t break them. Apart from breaking through a sacrificial board, I can’t think what extra time is required. I can swap a block and change the knives in less time than it takes to wind up and down a router platform lift, undo the collet, change the bit, retighten the collet and wind down the platform. The fence still needs adjusting on both, depth of cut is really easy to adjust on a spindle and in fact can be done on the fly. A router, you really need to switch it off, wait for it to stop, and then get the hex key (or some other tool) to wind it up or down. 

I can see the usefulness for site work, and can understand only having a router table in those circumstances rather than a spindle. Also, if you need to store away say a desk top router table arrangement because you haven’t the floor space for a spindle. Other than that, observation and comments would suggest that router tables promote less safe working practices principle because people seem to use them without shaw guards, and run their hands close to / follow through stuff over the blade. I think we have all experienced a router bit breaking who have used a router for any period of time. I’ve never heard of a modern spindle using modern blocks loosing its cutters or the block coming off the spindle at the operator.


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## Spectric

All very interesting, but no machine with any type of cuttng ability is going to be 100% safe otherwise it would not be usable, but where the material can be fed through without getting near any cutter is as safe as you will get so from that perspective the spindle and power feed must be safer. 



Ollie78 said:


> Another thing is custom ground knives are affordable but custom router bits not so much.


I have seen Wealdon do blank inserts for their cutter heads so you can make your own profiles, a very cheap option wheras with the router table you do work with what router cutters are available but I would say this is not a major issue for most home hobby non trade woodworkers providing you can be flexable.

I made up some lengths of Sappelle moulding to top off some wall paneling, two piece construction and with one length at nearly three metres long. I have a Kreg router table and Triton router using Infinity cutters, but with Jessem clear cut guides to keep the work against the fence. I will add that this drawing does not show that I rebated the 19-130 into the top piece so as to make the join more pleasing.










I will say it was time consuming because it took five passes with a very shallow last pass but cannot fault the results, to me this shows the router tables capability but if I was needing to make a large batch of these then I dare say the moulder would come into it's own and is maybe why I have overlooked the spindle moulder.


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## Peter Sefton

deema said:


> @Peter Sefton that’s exactly the sort of job I would do with say a 4mm groover on a spindle with a powerfeed. Keeps your fingers completely away from anything spinning and sharp. I’m guessing the router cutter was raise from underneath to the required depth and highly likely for most people they would push the stuff over it against the fence, no doubt passing their hand over the cutter. Kick back and it all gets ratter messy
> I really don’t understand why people consider a router table safer than a spindle. I have not seen a logical rationale for the perspective.



@deema Just to clear up any confusion if timber was passed over the top of a router cutter there would not be any kickback, this is because one side of the cutter would be forward cutting and the other back cutting-therefore counteracting each others force, even if you fed the timber through the "wrong" direction it would not cause kickback. 

Anybody who uses saws, planers, spindles or routers tables without guards is asking for trouble, so most machines used without guards will be definition be more dangerous than one that is guarded. We do use false or sacrificial fences on the router table when required but the gap between the fences on a router table is so so much smaller than those on a spindle moulder making exposure to the cutters/block much less on router tables than spindle moulders.

The groove I am making is 2mm wide and less than 2mm deep, I do have a 2mm slotting saw for the spindle but they are not very common. I am using a 2mm groover on the router table, far more efficient than running over the top of a 2mm fluted cutter, I would only use this for stopped inlay or plunge routing-something a spindle moulder can not do.

You can see from the images the router table is fully guarded and very safe, no need for the extra expense of a powerfeed-which I do love on a spindle. 












I think it is very unwise and reckless to advise home woodworkers that spindle moulding is safe, it can be but only with experience and a full understanding of the risks involved. It's such a versatile bit of kit but with that comes the risks as every set up can be different, getting it wrong has led to many fingers being lost.

Don't get me wrong a spindle moulder is a wonderful machine, but it is renowned for being the most dangerous woodworking machine and with good reason!

I wrote this article 11 years ago and have done my bit over the years teaching spindle safety to home and professional woodworkers, I am not saying I know it all but I am saying IMO the router table is a far safer bit of kit. I would advise anyone who buys a spindle moulder to get training before having a go.

Routing is less dangerous but training is helpful to work safely and to get the best of your kit, just finished two routing courses, places available in May and June. 









Routing Course - Peter Sefton Furniture School


Peter Sefton Furniture School - Routing Course - Learn the essential skills you need to use hand-held and table-mounted routers




www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.com





Cheers

Peter


----------



## TRITON

"Squeaky bum time"
I'm trained up to a level, but curved work is always so bloody risky I just dont want to undertake it.
We used a full ring fence set up. Never totally open like this


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## clogs

I'm lucky to have a router table with a 3HP Hitachi slung underneath......
plus 2 Sp/moulders, a lightweight Kitty and a cast iron monster.....
safety is all important but there are some that still cant use a bench saw properly so there no chance u can teach em to use the above machines....
most can't even use a hand saw.....
but for those that are not sure and reading this thread.....
u *can't *make one piece skirting boards or other big stuff with either a lightweight S/M or a router table.....
If u dont have room for a biggish S/M u def wont have room to put the timber thru it.....
they need a fair bit of uncluttered acreage.....
plus without in feed and out feed tables that kinda work is a 2 man job...(even using a power feed), plus the 2 men need to work as a team.....
having made miles of skirting u find out whats really needed....
that and a huge bin for the waste....hahaha....
for the home one man shop a spindle is a luxury but a nice one.....
this is a nice post......


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## clogs

thanks Triton, just watched that vid.....
a lot of prep time for such a little mileage but def not for me.....lol.....


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## deema

@Peter Sefton all machines carry some risk, used properly which is what I have throughout advocated the risk is reduced as far as possible. However, what I don’t do is propose something that is not based upon evidence.

The original query, which is what I am responding to is for making windows, which is best. A router is not the most appropriate piece of machinery. A spindle moulder is the machine which is best suited for this type of operation. 

Spindle moulders had deservedly a fearsome reputation for removing hands when the old style tooling was used. To reduce the risk legislation was brought in to limit cutter projection (LCPT) something that is also applied to routers for the same reason. Under the legislation the cutter projection for either machine at its maximum, for compliance is the same. A lot of accidents were caused by operators not waiting for cutters to come to a stop before putting their hands in, and again legislation (PUWER regs 1998) required moving blade machines to stop within 10 seconds. Interesting they specifically mention hand fed routers, and a lot of router tables setups don’t comply when swinging large tools, where as all modern Spindle moulders do (Their specification states the maximum weight for the cutter block they can handle). I am not aware of any handheld router that is braked, as they don’t need to stop in 10 seconds. A handheld router used in a router table in a workshop employing anyone they are not I don’t believe legal to use as they don’t comply with the PUWER 98 requirements without a brake fitted. 
Best practice for a spindle is to use a powerfeed, which removes totally your hands from any where near the blade. It also almost eliminated when set properly the risk of kick back. The small amount of statistical evidence from both the UK’s HSE and across the pond that breaks down the equipment involved with an accident is that table saws create the most injuries and loss of fingers, closely followed by planers and then spindle moulders.


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## Peter Sefton

@deema @countrybumpkin I joined the post late, looking back at the original question. The windows with rebates and chamfers could be done on a table saw with tunnel guards for safety, no need for a spindle or router table. 

For joinery work or larger production furniture making a spindle moulder is a must, for home woodworkers a router table is the way to go IMO.

Cheers

Peter


----------



## Peter Sefton

deema said:


> @Peter Sefton all machines carry some risk, used properly which is what I have throughout advocated the risk is reduced as far as possible. However, what I don’t do is propose something that is not based upon evidence.
> 
> The original query, which is what I am responding to is for making windows, which is best. A router is not the most appropriate piece of machinery. A spindle moulder is the machine which is best suited for this type of operation.
> 
> Spindle moulders had deservedly a fearsome reputation for removing hands when the old style tooling was used. To reduce the risk legislation was brought in to limit cutter projection (LCPT) something that is also applied to routers for the same reason. Under the legislation the cutter projection for either machine at its maximum, for compliance is the same. A lot of accidents were caused by operators not waiting for cutters to come to a stop before putting their hands in, and again legislation (PUWER regs 1998) required moving blade machines to stop within 10 seconds. Interesting they specifically mention hand fed routers, and a lot of router tables setups don’t comply when swinging large tools, where as all modern Spindle moulders do (Their specification states the maximum weight for the cutter block they can handle). I am not aware of any handheld router that is braked, as they don’t need to stop in 10 seconds. A handheld router used in a router table in a workshop employing anyone they are not I don’t believe legal to use as they don’t comply with the PUWER 98 requirements without a brake fitted.
> Best practice for a spindle is to use a powerfeed, which removes totally your hands from any where near the blade. It also almost eliminated when set properly the risk of kick back. The small amount of statistical evidence from both the UK’s HSE and across the pond that breaks down the equipment involved with an accident is that table saws create the most injuries and loss of fingers, closely followed by planers and then spindle moulders.
> View attachment 128802
> 
> View attachment 128801



I worked if further education in the late 90's I was sent out for the day to the HSE for update training on all the new legislation and then set the task of risk assessing and writing safe systems of work for the college (I would much rather be on the tools) As part of the training the incident rates were discussed from memory although most accidents occurred on the table (the most used bit of kit) the rate of accidents per hour of use was highest on the spindle-thus the reputation.

The accident rate and extent of injuries on the spindle is much lower now than 20 years ago but I still see old Whitehill blocks being used in industry and promoted on here or sold on eBay. 

Cheers

Peter


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## TRITON

@deema
Do those percentages take into account how many have saws and how many have moulders. I think you'll find though the statistics suggest saws are more dangerous, the lack of moulders in the home worker or small diy shop is being discluded and in truth for the actual numbers involved, statistically the moulder the more dangerous.
Many small shops have a saw, many home diy'ers and occasional job homeowners might have a chop saw. very very few (if any) will own a spindle moulder)Only really find that professional and serious makers own a spindle moulder.
Furthermore. The statistics shown from the hse give other machines a high percentage. It would be interesting to know if these other machines include router tables.


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## johnnyb

the biggest issue with router tables is the cutting angles are all wrong. they can often result in breakouts as the slot cutters don't have scribes. I've found these things become more unacceptable the more you charge!also bigger mouldings are not crisp.
router tables are a lot less intimidating than spindles and so I totally get Peters perspective. but safety should be at the forefront of every job on every machine.
a broken through fence on a spindle is a great thing for safety finish.


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## TRITON

Agree. 
I have been known in the past to run the router around the other way to back cut as ive found this prevents breakout due to the lack of scribe cutters.
Im not using the router at full power. its only ever just to cut in a couple of mm., before going round the proper way.


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## Doug71

These videos from the 90's were recently posted over on The a different place 2 by Trevanion (ex member here), They demonstrate the difference between cutters with and without limiters, you can see how the spindle got it's bad reputation in the past. They use a pigs tail to emulate a human finger  

I'm sure he won't mind me posting them here for reasons of safety and education, don't watch if you are feeling squeamish.


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## philip sewell

I use Whitehill blocks if I have to but use the Euro block most of the time. I’ve got an old Robinson sm which has a split fence and reverse. I also picked up a power feed on the way.

I have to say I’m always a bit uncomfortable starting it up when I’m using a whitehill block. I put a big lump of timber on the bed, switch it on and stand back for a minute (theory being if the cutters are going to come out it will happen fairly quickly!).

It’s the same with the blades on the planer, they are also held in by friction only. Again, that uncomfortable feeling when I switch on after a blade change.

With a euro block and power feed your hands shouldn’t be anywhere near the cutter so you should be ok.

I wouldn't want to be without the sm or the router table (my router table actually was originally a sm which I've converted).

I personally think the planer is more dangerous as your hands are much closer to the blades (even with correct use of the guard).

What do others think?

Phil.

tooleypark.com

bespokehandmadeboxes.co.uk


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## Doug71

philip sewell said:


> I personally think the planer is more dangerous as your hands are much closer to the blades (even with correct use of the guard).



I have always said the planer is the one that will most likely get me, I use push sticks on the TS and always really cautious with the SM but the planer gets a lot of use and is probably the thing I get most complacent with.


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## johnnyb

it's true to get good results you have to get "intimate" with the planer unfortuneatly. I like rubber faced gloves on the planer simply to improve control and stop slipping. bare hands in winter can be really slippy tbh. I also swap to the outfield as soon as possible then I'm pushing away from the cutters.


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## isaac3d

TRITON said:


> @deema
> Do those percentages take into account how many have saws and how many have moulders. I think you'll find though the statistics suggest saws are more dangerous, the lack of moulders in the home worker or small diy shop is being discluded and in truth for the actual numbers involved, statistically the moulder the more dangerous.
> Many small shops have a saw, many home diy'ers and occasional job homeowners might have a chop saw. very very few (if any) will own a spindle moulder)Only really find that professional and serious makers own a spindle moulder.
> Furthermore. The statistics shown from the hse give other machines a high percentage. It would be interesting to know if these other machines include router tables.


You are absolutely right to point out that the chart posted by deema showing percentage of accidents is potentially very misleading.
For those without statistics training (or natural statistical savvy) an imaginary example might serve: Imagine 100 people who had an accident with power tools of which 50 used routers and only one used a spindle moulder. Lets say 10% of all the accidents were with routers and only 1% were with spindle moulders. At first glance one might say routers are 10 times more dangerous than spindle moulders. But in fact, the percentage of accidents with routers is actually 20% (10 out of 50), whereas the percentage of accidents with spindle moulders is 100% (1 out of 1). So, in this imaginary example, routers are 5 times less dangerous than spindle moulders (20% compared to 100%). This is a purely hypothetical example but it serves to show that percentages in statistics must be used with as much caution as spindle moulders!


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## countrybumpkin

deema said:


> @Peter Sefton all machines carry some risk, used properly which is what I have throughout advocated the risk is reduced as far as possible. However, what I don’t do is propose something that is not based upon evidence.
> 
> The original query, which is what I am responding to is for making windows, which is best. A router is not the most appropriate piece of machinery. A spindle moulder is the machine which is best suited for this type of operation.
> 
> Spindle moulders had deservedly a fearsome reputation for removing hands when the old style tooling was used. To reduce the risk legislation was brought in to limit cutter projection (LCPT) something that is also applied to routers for the same reason. Under the legislation the cutter projection for either machine at its maximum, for compliance is the same. A lot of accidents were caused by operators not waiting for cutters to come to a stop before putting their hands in, and again legislation (PUWER regs 1998) required moving blade machines to stop within 10 seconds. Interesting they specifically mention hand fed routers, and a lot of router tables setups don’t comply when swinging large tools, where as all modern Spindle moulders do (Their specification states the maximum weight for the cutter block they can handle). I am not aware of any handheld router that is braked, as they don’t need to stop in 10 seconds. A handheld router used in a router table in a workshop employing anyone they are not I don’t believe legal to use as they don’t comply with the PUWER 98 requirements without a brake fitted.
> Best practice for a spindle is to use a powerfeed, which removes totally your hands from any where near the blade. It also almost eliminated when set properly the risk of kick back. The small amount of statistical evidence from both the UK’s HSE and across the pond that breaks down the equipment involved with an accident is that table saws create the most injuries and loss of fingers, closely followed by planers and then spindle moulders.
> View attachment 128802
> 
> View attachment 128801


Thank you


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## countrybumpkin

Peter Sefton said:


> @deema @countrybumpkin I joined the post late, looking back at the original question. The windows with rebates and chamfers could be done on a table saw with tunnel guards for safety, no need for a spindle or router table.
> 
> For joinery work or larger production furniture making a spindle moulder is a must, for home woodworkers a router table is the way to go IMO.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


Thanks


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## Spectric

It is just as dangerous to categorise machines on a scale of " how dangerous " because all machinery can be dangerous and cause injury so it is safer to just treat all machinery with equal respect and look upon them as a potential source of injury.


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