# Cabinet saw



## Marcjwebb (6 May 2015)

Hi guys. 

Just joined after a great read on someone else's post. 

As like a lot of people I am looking for a table saw in the UK that has the characteristics of a U.S. Cabinet saw. 

Also as like of people the budget isn't quit as big as it could be hence the search for the second hand market. 

Does anyone on here currently have anything for sale or know of anything. 

Initially I was looking at the Charnwood w619 but then after reading the description I realised just how small the top actually is. Basically a bit small for my needs 


If anyone has dealt with import before I would very much like to picks there brains as I am also considering that option 


Kind regards

Marc


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## heimlaga (6 May 2015)

There are plenty of good cabinet saws on the secondhand market but they aren't quite similar to the American ones. I don't think they need to be. Some of those American cabinet saws are rather underpowered and flimsy affairs and the American style fence and lack of overarm guard and riving knife make them pretty dangerous too.

-Rapid is a German maker of good quality cabinet saws. Very expensive when new but often affordable secondhand. They are a bit more solid and powerful than their American counterparts and have slightly larger tables than the Americans. DennisCA on this forum recently bought one.
-If you want something even more solid and have room for it the smaller kinds of Wadkin-Bursgreen saws will provide you with a lot of saw for little money on the British secondhand market. There were other British maker as well in the past but I don't know much about their products. 
-Ejca is a fairly good Swedish brand. They are very small but fairly fell built. Pretty expensive when new but affordable secondhand. 
-Stenberg defined a top quality cabinet saw forever though they are no longer made. If you can find a Stenberg secondhand you have a heirloom which is totally in a class of it's own.


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## Marcjwebb (6 May 2015)

Wow that's a fantastic response. Thank you. 

Do you know if this forum has a for sale sections at all ?


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## RogerP (6 May 2015)

Marcjwebb":2zz4oke3 said:


> Wow that's a fantastic response. Thank you.
> 
> Do you know if this forum has a for sale sections at all ?


Click on "Board index" in "User Tools" - top of right-hand side panel.


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## Marcjwebb (6 May 2015)

are there any specific places that advertise secondhand machines other than ebay as ebay doesnt seem to be much help tbh.


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## whiskywill (6 May 2015)

Just Google "Used woodwork machinery" and a lot of choices pop up.


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## Steve Maskery (6 May 2015)

The nearest thing to an American cabinet saw in the UK will probably be the Xcalibur from Woodford. Not exactly cheap but you'll never need to buy another.Older models, like mine are the trad right tilt and switch on the right. The newer, current model, has a left tilt and IIRC you can put the switch wherever you like.
I admit that I've never seen one for sale S/H, but that just goes to show how well they are regarded by their owners, I think.


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## Adam9453 (6 May 2015)

After a lot of research I went for a startrite 12 inch tablesaw as they're quite readily available on ebay and more accurate than more expensive new models. I'd avoid the American style saws as they are more dangerous than European style saws. If you advise what your budget is then we can make some suggestions for good quality saws within your budget.


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## Steve Maskery (6 May 2015)

Oh Adam! Why do you say that they are more dangerous? I don't see how. They are very well-built. Sure, it is possible to use one in an unsafe manner, but that is true of any saw, not just US models. I'd say that there are far more poor-quality Euro saws on the market than US clones.

There are good and bad on both sides of the pond.

S


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## Wizard9999 (6 May 2015)

Steve Maskery":qkjd4ow0 said:


> The nearest thing to an American cabinet saw in the UK will probably be the Xcalibur from Woodford. Not exactly cheap but you'll never need to buy another.Older models, like mine are the trad right tilt and switch on the right. The newer, current model, has a left tilt and IIRC you can put the switch wherever you like.
> I admit that I've never seen one for sale S/H, but that just goes to show how well they are regarded by their owners, I think.



I bought a secondhand Xcalibur (old model) from the for sale section of this forum, so they do come up occassionally. Guess it depends on if you want to 'scratch the itch' urgently or if you have the luxury of time.

Terry.


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## woodbrains (6 May 2015)

Steve Maskery":1xi8j52v said:


> Oh Adam! Why do you say that they are more dangerous? I don't see how. They are very well-built. Sure, it is possible to use one in an unsafe manner, but that is true of any saw, not just US models. I'd say that there are far more poor-quality Euro saws on the market than US clones.
> 
> There are good and bad on both sides of the pond.
> 
> S



Indeed! The only dubious thing about US table saws is the lack of a riving knife, and this has been recently adressed, so it is law for all new TS's in the states to have one like we have been used to in Europe for decades. I've used General, powermatic, delta uni saw, and he larger Jet all with beseymeir fences, and uni fences, as well as some American old iron and they are all superb, rock solid and accurate. It is some American techniques on the saws which are unsafe and should be avoided! Something like a used Wadkin 10AGS would be my vote for something of that ilk. It is the saw I would go for if I was out to get another saw. My Kity 1619 keeps on going, though, and will not give me a reason to change. It does have an American fence on it though, which is a vast improvement over the standard effort.

Mike.


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## heimlaga (6 May 2015)

The Americans have produced plenty of good woodworking machinery over the years and deserve credit for that. They still produce a few good machines and they still have some good craftsmen over there. 
I just don't like certain not so good machines that are massively promoted on youtube and certain unsafe American practises also massively promoted on youtube.


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## Adam9453 (6 May 2015)

Steve Maskery":2zog6see said:


> Oh Adam! Why do you say that they are more dangerous? I don't see how. They are very well-built. Sure, it is possible to use one in an unsafe manner, but that is true of any saw, not just US models. I'd say that there are far more poor-quality Euro saws on the market than US clones.
> 
> There are good and bad on both sides of the pond.
> 
> S


The second hand American style versions such as the ones sold by woodfords come with a splitter with anti-kickback pawls instead of a riving knife. Unfortunately because the splitter is fitted to leave quite a large gap behind the blade, it significantly increases the risk of kickback. As the op is after a second hand saw for roughly Charnwood money I'd be concerned they'd get a 'more' dangerous saw than an equivalently priced startrite machine which has a proper riving knife and crown guard. From reading the op's post I got the impression they haven't used a table saw before and decided they like an American style from watching NYW. As you quite rightly say, any saw is dangerous but I was trying to recommend the least dangerous in my opinion. It also is a very fresh topic for me as after lots of research and testing different saws I settled on a secondhand startrite 275DS.


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## pcb1962 (6 May 2015)

Marcjwebb":193fn12z said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> Just joined after a great read on someone else's post.
> 
> ...



There's a Kity 619 on eBay (item 281683413101) which will likely go for somewhere over 500 pounds. It's an excellent saw (I have one), nice big cast iron top, decent fence, good motor and mechanicals. You can ignore the 16 amp requirement in the description, you can run it on a 13 amp plug as long as you don't mind replacing the fuse occasionally - twice in the year or so I've had mine.


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## woodbrains (6 May 2015)

Hello,

That Kity (all French origin ones) has an alloy table, in fact. I would not highly recommend it, TBH, but with big reservations, it is just OK. I've had my 1619 for yonks, and I love it and hate it in equal measure. It's light weight is a boon in a small workshop, where it might be shifted about, and it does go on working without complaint. But the fence system leaves a lot to be desired, which is why I changed mine for a rock solid biesemeyer clone. It would have been OK if they hadn't have ruined it by making the RHS extension table collapsible, so the flipping fence rails would never stay straight enough. Also, the rise and fall and tilt mechanism is not on cast iron trunnions or anything like, so adjustments take more turns of the handle than whisking a bowl of cream. Not too much of an issue with rise/fall, but tilt!!! And this causes another issue; I do believe the saw tilt mechanism (is all fixed to folded steel housings, which are quite substantial, but pivots on pins connected to the table) never quite runs true, so the sawblade set parallel to the fence for vertical cuts is not quite so when tilted. I don't do much bevel cutting, so not too big an issue for me, but I don't think the saw is one I would recommend. As for 16 amp supply, the machine is fused at 20 amps (slo-blo) so there is a clue that it will draw a fair bit more than 13 on start up. The 1619 in the link is larger motored than the standard.

I have made some very high end furniture on mine, that said, but I still wish I hade something else. Don't get me started on the cross cut slide!

Mike.


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## pcb1962 (6 May 2015)

woodbrains":3edhqmcb said:


> Hello,
> That Kity (all French origin ones) has an alloy table, in fact.



Hmm, you're right. It never occurred to me that it wasn't cast iron, but I just tested it with a magnet and it's definitely not ferrous.



> I would not highly recommend it, TBH, but with big reservations, it is just OK. I've had my 1619 for yonks, and I love it and hate it in equal measure. It's light weight is a boon in a small workshop, where it might be shifted about, and it does go on working without complaint. But the fence system leaves a lot to be desired, which is why I changed mine for a rock solid biesemeyer clone. It would have been OK if they hadn't have ruined it by making the RHS extension table collapsible, so the flipping fence rails would never stay straight enough. Also, the rise and fall and tilt mechanism is not on cast iron trunnions or anything like, so adjustments take more turns of the handle than whisking a bowl of cream. Not too much of an issue with rise/fall, but tilt!!! And this causes another issue; I do believe the saw tilt mechanism (is all fixed to folded steel housings, which are quite substantial, but pivots on pins connected to the table) never quite runs true, so the sawblade set parallel to the fence for vertical cuts is not quite so when tilted. I don't do much bevel cutting, so not too big an issue for me, but I don't think the saw is one I would recommend. As for 16 amp supply, the machine is fused at 20 amps (slo-blo) so there is a clue that it will draw a fair bit more than 13 on start up. The 1619 in the link is larger motored than the standard.
> .



Thanks for that detail. I haven't had any trouble with the fence, I did spend quite a while setting up the extension table and fence rails perfectly when I got it and I don't put the table down often. I like how solid the fence is with the clamp at the rear, though it's a nuisance having the extra step each time you adjust it. I'll look out for the other issues, haven't noticed any problems yet but I rarely do any bevel cutting and I mostly use a crosscut sled. Mine is the larger motored 1619 and it really is quite ok on a 13 amp plug, only blown a couple of fuses in a year or so. I have a 16 amp socket ready to fit cos I could do with one for my welder too, but haven't got around to it yet.
Although it's not perfect I'm sure that it's a much better saw for the money than any you would buy from Axminster or Charnwood for the same money.


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## Steve Maskery (6 May 2015)

Adam
My saw came with a riving knife and guard. I'm the first to admit that they could both be improved, which I most certainly did and have documented.
But it was never just a splitter and it didn't have anti-kick-back pawls. And the RK fitted the blade properly.

Yes it is a bit of work to put all its flaws right, and in an ideal world they should not need to be put right, I agree, but I would rather have a robust machine that needs a bit of fettling than a tinpot that is basically poorly built.

I am not suggesting that all other saws are tinpot and poorly built!

And yes, a second-hand Startrite is almost certainly an asset to one's workshop. Indeed, we are looking out for one right now for our Community Workshop.


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## woodbrains (6 May 2015)

pcb1962":ahc2hfiq said:


> woodbrains":ahc2hfiq said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Hello,

I've stuck with mine because it does have its good points and not so terrible to be changed for something better. But watch those fence rails, they will go out, even if you don't drop the table, watch for the fence going out of parallel to the blade, every now and then. It is a solid fence, otherwise, but if it should skew in towards the blade at the back, beware! Also, spares are impossible to get since Kity folded some years ago. 

Mike.


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## Marcjwebb (7 May 2015)

To be fair I a long as it's got a good solid top decent fence that's accurate and safe that's the three main points for me ticked. 

I keep seeing some names like wadkin? Anyone know of them ?


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## Marcjwebb (7 May 2015)

Pcb1962, I actually have that on my watch list atm. Could you shed anymore light with regards to using it reliability and how good is the fence ?


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## DennisCA (7 May 2015)

Even a heavy saw like a Wadkin AGS-10 can be moved with the right lifting mechanism. I'm something of a woodgears shill I feel, but the mobile base system he designed works excellently on my Rapid saw which is nearly 300kg. And the best thing is, it stands on it's own legs, only goes onto castors when actually being moved!

Some old pictures from when I had completed it, just construction lumber and angle iron to beef things up










So a heavy saw doesn't have to be immobile, this way I get lots of saw for my little shop.


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## Marcjwebb (7 May 2015)

Does anyone know of any other places for used other than eBay ?


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## Marcjwebb (7 May 2015)

either that anything slightly cheaper with regards to european stuff and getting to the UK?


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## pcb1962 (8 May 2015)

Marcjwebb":dp7emfii said:


> Pcb1962, I actually have that on my watch list atm. Could you shed anymore light with regards to using it reliability and how good is the fence ?



Every 619 / 1619 I see seems to have a different fence. There are 2 on eBay now, both with different fences, and neither with a fence like mine. Mine has an additional Bristol lever at the front of the fence with a rod through to a clamp at the rear. This extra clamping makes the fence rock solid, but adds a little annoyance every time you try to move the fence without undoing it. Mike has said far more than I can about the reliability and the shortcomings of the saw. Mine has only light hobby use but I see no reason for it not to be very reliable. Before I bought the Kity I had a good look at the AW10BSB2. IMO the Kity is a much better quality machine and given the choice I would buy the same again.


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## heimlaga (8 May 2015)

Marcjwebb":3qfk6iul said:


> To be fair I a long as it's got a good solid top decent fence that's accurate and safe that's the three main points for me ticked.
> 
> I keep seeing some names like wadkin? Anyone know of them ?



Everybody know Wadkin. A very big company making very high quality machines back in the days. They later merged with a company called Bursgreen which was a maker of smaller "lightweight" machines which is not what the word "lightweight" implies today but some pretty solid stuff. Towards the end Wadkin-Bursgreen made a few inferrior models but they weren't too many so with 95% probability a Wadkin or Wadkin-Bursgreen will be a good machine if it hasn't been abused by previous owners.
Robinson and Sagar are also well known names on high end British machines from that era. There were many more British makers that did'nt export to Finland and hence are unknown to me.


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