# combination square woes



## mickthetree (8 Jan 2009)

When my father asked me what I wanted for christmas, I thought it was about time I improved my accuracy and I asked for a combination square. After some looking round for a descent English manufacturer, I came across Fisco and specifically their 58ME combination square with protractor and centre finder.

Christmas day, I was all smiles in front of my father, but I was somewhat disappointed.

Now I'm not sure this is specific to this model or generally to combination square, maybe you can let me know what yours is like:

The square, protractor and centre finder are all held on the rule by a brass pin. This pin sits in a housing and when the items are removed from the rule, the pin and spring are free to drop out on the floor and be lost forever. Nothing to retain them. Could easily get lost in a tool box.

The face of the square has a sort of ripple across the lower half. The top half is pretty flat but its not consistent and not flat.

If I set the face of the protractor to the face of the square when they are both mounted, the protractor points to somewhere between 90 and 91 degrees. Is this as accurate as they get? am I expecting too much?

The edges of the face of the square are also pretty rough. Could do with de burring.

So a combination of what to me is poor manufacture but also design.

I'm going to pop into my local hardware store at the wknd to have a look at some of theirs and see if the pins fall out. I'm sure one of the Chinese ones I saw looked better than this.

Or am I fussing over nothing?


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## thomvic (8 Jan 2009)

It looks pretty impressive on the Fisco website but perhaps too much in one tool? At £20 you are probably getting what you paid for.

Richard


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## Racers (8 Jan 2009)

Hi,

Good ones are really expensive http://uk.farnell.com/starrett/435-18-4 ... dp/1264295 You should be able to tune it up a bit, or you could take it back and see if the rest are the same.

Pete


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## thomvic (8 Jan 2009)

Wow!!!!

That is veeeeery expensive!


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## Racers (8 Jan 2009)

Hi,

Its cheaper over the pond http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002CSBNE/?ta ... nkCode=asn

Pete


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## mickthetree (8 Jan 2009)

Thanks guys WOW! that is a lot of money!

It was cheap, but I'm still amazed that something so fundamental as the brass pin not falling out was part of the "design". And I dont see the point in calling something a precision instrument when it isnt precise.

Anyway, I think I'm going to send it back and look out for a descent second hand one.


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## matthewwh (8 Jan 2009)

I picked up a 6" starret on ebay a few months back and have been chuffed to bits with it. 

Alternatively Stanley do a Rabone combination square at £28.50+VAT (just the square not the protractor and centre finder). I haven't handled one myself but most of the Rabone stuff looks to be good quality - class 1 stated accuracy, steel rules stamped with correct at 20 degrees C etc.

Cheers,


Matthew


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## speed (8 Jan 2009)

i have a fisco square for site work, its cast and very heavy, its the 53 i think, verry well made,
i think the 58 is the same as the 52, they are realy lightweight and flimsy,
if you upgrade buy the best you can aford,


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## OPJ (8 Jan 2009)

I've just bought a 12" "Empire" from Axminster (less than £12, I think). I remember Good Woodworking had a lot of good things to say about them a few years ago. Haven't had a chance to use or check mine yet. I think they are "guarenteed for accuracy" as well...


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## joiner_sim (8 Jan 2009)

Squares. A metal engineers set square is the most accurate you can get.


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## bugbear (9 Jan 2009)

mickthetree":2rhg0qub said:


> When my father asked me what I wanted for christmas, I thought it was about time I improved my accuracy and I asked for a combination square.



As has been discussed in other threads, combination squares are about versatility and convenience, not super-accuracy.

Even the good ones are less accurate than "ordinary" squares in the same price league.

"Fairly" accurate combo squares exist, but are very pricy.

BugBear


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## thomvic (9 Jan 2009)

Are we getting ripped off or what?

$192 (£126) from Amazon in the US and £308 from Farnell in UK for what seems to be the same thing. I doubt that the slight difference in part numbers (435-12-4R or 435-18-4R) is relevant so just what are Farnell up to? The Amazon one is not available for shipment to UK but Farnell add £15.95 for shipment from US.

Richard


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Jan 2009)

If you want all the flash, with accuracy (as these are adjustable or correctable), then think Colen Clenton ..







http://www.hntgordon.com.au/colenclenton.htm

The CCs are the 6" square and mitre square. That 4" square is an absolute bargain - an adjustable Crown (copy of the CC) - about $40 AUD new (the trammel is a vintage Preston, the square saddle is Bridge City, and the dovetail square is one I made).

If you just want accuracy, get a machinist square. Even the cheap ones are pretty spot on. 

I bought all my Starrett combination squares on eBay (USA). A 12" with all the fruit cost about $30. My favourite is a 6" double square.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (9 Jan 2009)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> If you want all the flash, with accuracy (as these are adjustable or correctable), then think Colen Clenton ..



Whilst his squares are adjustable for square (which is good for long term accuracy), I don't like his use of brass blades, which will surely wear.

Precision tools are made from hardened steel for a reason.

I've seen hardened steel combo square rules with getting on for 1/32" of "saddle back" (*), so the scope for wear is very real.

BugBear

(*) and corrected them via my surface plate, natch


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## dunbarhamlin (9 Jan 2009)

Speaking of adjustable squares, what's the best way to true them?
Loosen them off, cramp stock and blade to a square block and then sneak up on both screws?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Jan 2009)

Piece of blank paper taped to edge of a table.

Using the square, draw a_ thin _line square to edge of table.

Flip square and draw another _thin_ line alongside it.

Are they parallel?

Set square and repeat until that are perfectly parallel with each other.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## dunbarhamlin (9 Jan 2009)

Thanks, Derek
That's what I've been doing - just wondered if there was a better way without a trip to specsavers 
Cheers
Steve


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## woodbloke (9 Jan 2009)

dunbarhamlin":2i80hxm1 said:


> Thanks, Derek
> That's what I've been doing - just wondered if there was a better way without a trip to specsavers
> Cheers
> Steve


...advisable Steve :lol: :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## Chris Knight (9 Jan 2009)

thomvic":1k2jjbam said:


> Are we getting ripped off or what?
> 
> $192 (£126) from Amazon in the US and £308 from Farnell in UK for what seems to be the same thing. I doubt that the slight difference in part numbers (435-12-4R or 435-18-4R) is relevant so just what are Farnell up to? The Amazon one is not available for shipment to UK but Farnell add £15.95 for shipment from US.
> 
> Richard



One will be 12 inches long, the other 18 inches.


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## matthewwh (9 Jan 2009)

thomvic":3flc1l6l said:


> Are we getting ripped off or what?
> 
> $192 (£126) from Amazon in the US and £308 from Farnell in UK for what seems to be the same thing. I doubt that the slight difference in part numbers (435-12-4R or 435-18-4R) is relevant so just what are Farnell up to? The Amazon one is not available for shipment to UK but Farnell add £15.95 for shipment from US.
> 
> Richard



About £50 of the difference is going to be VAT and Duty. The 12 and the 18 are the length of the rule in inches. It's still a farly substantial discrepancy though.

Cheers,

Matthew


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## thomvic (9 Jan 2009)

Chris and Mathew

Thanks for that info on rule size. It doesn't make me feel a lot better though when a steel rule costs over £20 an inch"

Richard


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## marcus (9 Jan 2009)

> I picked up a 6" starret on ebay a few months back and have been chuffed to bits with it.



I also have a six inch starret which I bought new about five years ago. I ordered it from a local shop without asking how much it would be, having heard they are a good make. I assumed I would pay about £15. The guy in the shop looked really embarrassed when I went in to collect it and he told me the price - he hadn't expected it to be so much either. 

Still he'd ordered it specially from the states, so I coughed up, and I haven't once regretted it - it's a beauty. On the other hand I regret buying my Stanley 12" every time I use it....


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## afreegreek (8 Apr 2010)

I have Bridge City squares (2), a Bridge City mitre square, 6 engineer's squares.. 2",3",4",6",8",and 12" and a Starrett combination square with 12" and 18" blades. other than the 2" and 3" engineer's squares and the Starrett is the only one I use. the rest are drawer filler because I find set squares are pretty useless.. especially the brass bladed Bridge City ones.. if they weren't such eye candy, I'd toss them in the dumpster...


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## afreegreek (8 Apr 2010)

I have Bridge City squares (2), a Bridge City mitre square, 6 engineer's squares.. 2",3",4",6",8",and 12" and a Starrett combination square with 12" and 18" blades. other than the 2" and 3" engineer's squares and the Starrett is the only one I use. the rest are drawer filler because I find set squares are pretty useless.. especially the brass bladed Bridge City ones.. if they weren't such eye candy, I'd toss them in the dumpster...


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## dannykaye (8 Apr 2010)

years ago I bought a cheap (£2 ish) cast iron square, for years I thought I couldnt saw straight, 90 was ok but 45 for mitres no way, then I got a M&W set on ebay for about £50 and realised that the 45 was off, sad I never thought it could be anything but me  


I now havs a £20 stanley set like this one but bright yellow. I checked and it is as good as the m&w one. BTW the good ones like the M&W the bits don't fall out!

edit: I took a fine file to the 45 one the old one and it has improved my ability to saw straight


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## Steve Maskery (8 Apr 2010)

I've been looking to upgrade mine for ages. I forget the make, I've had it 20 years or more. The 90 was OK but the 45 out. Useless for proper precision.

I baulked at the price of the Starrett and eventually went for an Axi. I think it was PAC who recommended it. I was a tad disappointed when I got it. It looked OK, but a bit like a cheap copy of something very good (which I suppose it is, really).

But it appears to be spot on in accuracy, and it is fine for everyday use. Not a Starrett, no, but I don't regret buying it. It's a good compromise. The rule and the protractor are easy to read, with fine markings, so that is a boon as my arms seem to have shrunk in the last few years.

I'm happy.

(With that, anyway! I think I probably got divorced today  )


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## jimi43 (8 Apr 2010)

I would have said that combination squares are useful for most things but not a set square 90 degrees.

I have tried many options but on a smallish scale nothing can beat my old MW...







Bootfair...£20....probably the most I have ever shelled out at a bootfair but worth every penny!

Jim


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## Max Power (8 Apr 2010)

Sorry to hear about your problems Steve,it must be a very stressful time for you, but things do start to get better with time so try and stay positive


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## Ironballs (8 Apr 2010)

I had/have one of the cheapo combis but wondered why I was struggling to get accurate mitres after using it to set my tablesaw. Turns out it isn't quite 45 deg but oh so slightly off. Ended up getting the Axi boxset that I think Steve was talking about, a few more quid but not too much and you do get a lot for your cash

BTW - I see afreegreek is still having his double posting issue. Must be permanently hammered!

PS - good luck Steve


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## chingerspy (8 Apr 2010)

Useful thread to dig up for me right now  I will need a new square or set of squares after finding out why all my longer lines were wonky using the Wickes special :roll: I have my 2" engineers square from college still though and it's as straight as ever it was.

So the Axi set gets the thumbs up then? If it's good enough for Steve and Ironballs, it's good enough for me! Is this the set? Is this the set?

Steve: sorry to hear that mate. I went through one about 8 years ago (nearly to the day!)  Time will help a bit at first, then a lot, now I could give a monkeys. Here to help if I can.


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## Ironballs (8 Apr 2010)

That's the one, nice piece of equipment


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## Steve Maskery (8 Apr 2010)

That's the one.
Thanks for the support guys. I've just had a good evening with a good mate in a good pub with 1.5 pints of good beer. There was also a group of Good Mate's professional colleagues from years ago, quite by accident, and no-one else in the pub, so the landlord was happy to cut the rubbish music and we sat, drank and discussed mental health issues, Harley Davidsons, NGOs, the restrictions placed on people who have to give a reference to people who are totally inadequate for the job and several other genuinely interesting topics as well. It was a good evening. Very good.

I wished Judith "Happy Divorce". She didn't respond.

S


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## Ironballs (8 Apr 2010)

On the plus side Steve, you're not going to get delivery men asking you if you're Mrs Maskery anymore. Well, at least I hope not :shock:


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## Steve Maskery (8 Apr 2010)

Thank you IB, that has made me laugh.
S


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## chingerspy (8 Apr 2010)

Good, good, one other investment I will try to find cash for then  I was going to go for all metal engineers squares as I sort of lost faith in normal wood/metal design ones.

Steve, 1.5 beers and a sense of humour are good moves. Answers are not at the bottom of the tenth pint or that bottle of whiskey I looked


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## afreegreek (9 Apr 2010)

chingerspy":3amqy6qs said:


> Good, good, one other investment I will try to find cash for then  I was going to go for all metal engineers squares as I sort of lost faith in normal wood/metal design ones.
> 
> Steve, 1.5 beers and a sense of humour are good moves. Answers are not at the bottom of the tenth pint or that bottle of whiskey I looked


all the wood/metal type wood worker's squares I've tried have wide blades and wide stocks. they are not that comfortable to hold or as easy to control as the all steel engineer's style. they have narrower blades and stocks but thicker blades.. much better to knife a line against and to hold in position while you do it.. they are cheap too. I have a really expensive 6" Starrett master square No. 20 that I keep just to check the other ones incase I drop them or something. it's accurate to .0001" over the 6 inches.. my other squares which were much cheaper check to be square against this reference at about 1/4 the price. I have a bunch that I bought from Lee Valley and they are very nice to use and pretty cheap too..

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... at=1,42936


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## chingerspy (9 Apr 2010)

Yes I think I was looking at them. It's a real pain in the proverbial for someone like me starting the hobby to find that all along their sqaure was out of kilter  I've been using that since taking it up around new year. I'm tempted to throw this one at the Wickes MD but I fear it may come back like a boomerang!

I definately feel more comfortable with engineers squares (trained in engineering but never a career) They give me confidence as they are all metal and feel pretty sturdy.


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## Eric The Viking (9 Apr 2010)

chingerspy":3gdraa37 said:


> Yes I think I was looking at them. It's a real pain in the proverbial for someone like me starting the hobby to find that all along their sqaure was out of kilter  I've been using that since taking it up around new year. I'm tempted to throw this one at the Wickes MD but I fear it may come back like a boomerang!
> 
> I definately feel more comfortable with engineers squares (trained in engineering but never a career) They give me confidence as they are all metal and feel pretty sturdy.



I think we all learn the hard way  

Squares and spirit levels: always, always check 'em before use: I had an 8x11ft window installed three times by the firm, as twice the twits doing it used an untrue spirit level didn't check it, and couldn't work out why, eleven feet higher up the house, it didn't fit! It took their manager to explain it to them...

One of the best squares I have for day-to-day use is a plastic set square, with a block moulded on it to align with edges. It's getting a bit old and worn now, so that I have to use pressure on it in a particular way, but I'm used to it. I still check it regularly though, and don't trust it for crucial things. It's branded 'Keetosquare", circa 1983, and if I could find another I'd jump at the chance.


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## dannykaye (9 Apr 2010)

A friend of mine had a cheap combination set, borrowed my japanese marking knife and cut a sliver off the ruler  there are good reasons for hard steel


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## PeterBassett (9 Apr 2010)

I've got four (4! they breed) dirt cheap combination squares from B&Q.

I don't use them for checking square but they are dead useful for keeping a distance measurement.

Pete


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## Dibs-h (9 Apr 2010)

joiner_sim":1643f5q2 said:


> Squares. A metal engineers set square is the most accurate you can get.



I agree - anything else is bound to be comprised somehow.

MickTree - you'll find even the el-cheapo B&Poo are the same. Looking at the Starret, whilst it may be more accurate, I can't see how the pins on that wouldn't fall out. Perhaps if someone has one - they could let us know.


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## jimi43 (9 Apr 2010)

> ......untrue spirit level .........



That's what I got when I used to order rum and coke in the Caribbean!

8) 8) 8) 

Jim


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## afreegreek (9 Apr 2010)

Dibs-h":1f8yxgxu said:


> joiner_sim":1f8yxgxu said:
> 
> 
> > Squares. A metal engineers set square is the most accurate you can get.
> ...


 I have Starrett Combination squares.. the pin will not fall out because it goes in from the top through the blade slot, then there is a spring and a washer then the nut. the only way to get it out is to unscrew the nut all the way and even at that the hole is machined pretty snug and you have to try a bit to remove it. it won't just fall out.. this is true with all adjustable Starrett squares.

you can remove the blade and never worry about losing the pin and unlike most manufacturers, you can buy a replacement pin for about $5.00 should you break it.. you can also send it in to have it trued for $15.00 if you manage to wear it too much. which I doubt anyone will. mine is 25 years old, is used daily at work and shows no sign of wear against my reference square.


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## mr grimsdale (9 Apr 2010)

Mines a combi square (Rabone Chesterman?)
It's very accurate (enough) and has stayed that way for 30 years so far. The only problem is the loss of the handy scribing pin which fitted in a hole in the side. Luckily I found a dart (on a pub floor) which serves the same purpose, after removing the feathers.


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## afreegreek (9 Apr 2010)

mr grimsdale":1avx3uq0 said:


> Mines a combi square (Rabone Chesterman?)
> It's very accurate (enough) and has stayed that way for 30 years so far. The only problem is the loss of the handy scribing pin which fitted in a hole in the side. Luckily I found a dart (on a pub floor) which serves the same purpose, after removing the feathers.


 yup, those always fall out.. I still have mine only because I removed it and put it in my little whatsit box. 

BTW, it's not just a scribe pin.. the other intended use it to put the point in the 1" mark (or whatever) and bring the stock up to the pin for setting a distance of 1" (or whatever) from the end of the blade. try it and check the projection with the depth rod on your micrometer. it's perfect and repeatable as long as the edge of the pin rests flush with the face of the stock.


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