# dining table in oak



## stef (1 Jun 2009)

yes, another one.
Been gathering info on this project for a while now, and yesterday, i started playing around with the oak i was going to use for the project.
time to finalise the plan.

so it's got to be fairly big. is there any standard traditional dimensions for dining table ?
I was going to go for 2100mmx900mm. and here is a quick sketch of how i plan to assemble the top.
Am i way off the mark ?


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## Paul Chapman (1 Jun 2009)

Wood expands and contracts across its width, so the two end pieces and the centre piece will expand and contract one way and the remaining pieces will expand and contract the other way. This will cause you problems.........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (1 Jun 2009)

Can't see the pic at the moment, but it sounds like 'breadboard ends'... - Rob


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## Russ (1 Jun 2009)

It may look good when finished but after a couple of seasons the joints will crack open. Have you thought of a simple plank-top?


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## stef (1 Jun 2009)

all farmhouse tables i have seen have those two end pieces, so i would think that this is the way to do this.
why do you think the contration/expension will give me problems ? 
I am not sure about the middle section (parallel to the end pieces), but this being a large table it sorts of make sense to me.
it's got to have a rustic/ farmhouse feel to it, so i dont mind the open joints.


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## stef (1 Jun 2009)

http://www.french-oak-furniture.com/new%20tables.htm
Ah !
found a good example, with dimensions !
it's 2100mm x 900m..
Is there any rules to stop me making mine 2100x100 ?


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## motownmartin (1 Jun 2009)

What people are trying to tell you is to watch out for movement when you have grain going in opposite directions, I think you will have to make sure the moisture content is correct, don't ask me what it should be but I have 2 pieces of furniture in the same room, both with breadboard ends, one an expensive Oak table and the other a cheapdisplay cabinet from ebay, the table has not moved in 5 years the display cabinet has moved a great deal in just 2 years.


Here are some pics to show you











Just imagine what your table could end up like with the centre rail after a couple of years.

I hope it works out for you


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## jlawrence (1 Jun 2009)

Being a beginner correct me if I'm miles off the mark here:
Surely the amount of movement you'll get will depend on how well the wood was adjusted to the temperatures before working it and on how well the surface has been sealed ?


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## newt (1 Jun 2009)

Its moisture not temperature that causes wood movement. It can be minimised by making sure the wood has acclimatized to the environment it is going to remain in before machining (this time depends on several factors mainley the starting moisture content and the thinkness of wood ). You cannot seal wood completely from the effects of moisture with normal finishes.


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## Paul Chapman (1 Jun 2009)

Stef,

Wood *never* stops moving, so the centre rail will give you problems eventually. If you want to go with the breadboard ends, however, they would be OK provided the construction method you use to attach them will allow for movement (ie don't glue it).

Just because the picture in that link you posted shows a centre piece, doesn't mean it's the right way to do it :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## stef (1 Jun 2009)

Paul Chapman":21pvkwj9 said:


> Stef,
> 
> Wood *never* stops moving, so the centre rail will give you problems eventually. If you want to go with the breadboard ends, however, they would be OK provided the construction method you use to attach them will allow for movement (ie don't glue it).
> 
> ...


so, basically, the table will shrink length wise, apart from the center piece, which would force the middle to be in line with teh end boards.
this means gaps will eventually appear between the inner boards.

You say breadboards are ok at the end, provided movement is allowed. This mean the breadboards will eventually be (relatively) shorter (or longer) than the combined width of the "filler" boards. some gaps will, of course appear here too. either between the "filler" boards, or an obvious step, as in one of the picture above.


so how is this different with a center piece ?
can i just see the center piece as the end breadboard of another table attached to the first one ? (this would mean the sketch i initially drew is not correct. the middle piece should go all the way accross.)


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## Dave S (1 Jun 2009)

stef":drsietjj said:


> it's got to have a rustic/ farmhouse feel to it, so i dont mind the open joints.


In that case, could you not build it as a frame and panel? Instead of making the frame to accommodate expansion of the panel as others are suggesting, you would _fix_ the frame and make the panel so that expansion/contraction does not break the frame.

In effect it becomes like a horizontal door. You then need an expansion gap around the panel or between the components but you could make a feature of this, and it could have that rustic look that you are aiming for.

cheers
Dave


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## Paul Chapman (1 Jun 2009)

stef":1mfsko3p said:


> so how is this different with a center piece ?



As it's drawn, the centre piece is not the same as the breadboard ends. The centre piece is trapped by the two, long outer pieces. As the lenthways pieces either side of the centre piece try to expand and contract across their width, something has to give.

If it were me, I'd forget about the centre piece as I think it makes the whole thing too complicated from a sound construction point of view.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## stef (1 Jun 2009)

http://www.alexanderpaulantiques.com/st ... 245-09.htm
http://www.alexanderpaulantiques.com/st ... 095-07.htm
http://www.alexanderpaulantiques.com/st ... 205-09.htm
From these, it looks like i am going to drop the middle section !
i might struggle with the stock i've got though.. a trip to the workshop is in order !


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## Richard Findley (2 Jun 2009)

Dave S":3w3ipd5q said:


> In effect it becomes like a horizontal door.



Hi Stef,

Dave has the key here. There's not much up with your plan except that when it's all glued up with tongues/biscuits etc, it has nowhere to go so is likely to bend/twist/warp/split (in no particular order).

Stick with the plan but use a tongue and groove for the panel (like a door) this allows for movement (no glue between the T&G) and everyone is happy!!!

HTH

Richard


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## BradNaylor (5 Jun 2009)

Richard Findley":1zn2hqln said:


> Dave S":1zn2hqln said:
> 
> 
> > In effect it becomes like a horizontal door.
> ...



Indeed he does.

This is exactly how I would think of this table top - as a horizontal door with frame and panel constuction.

The individual planks making up each panel can be glued together so long as the panel as a whole is floating in a snug but over-depth groove in the frame without glue.

The only way in which the table top would differ from a 'horizontal door' is that the end rails would extend to the full width of the table, giving the breadboard effect.

You should be able to use all the componant parts you have already prepared. The only difference is the way they are put together.

Cheers
Brad


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## Karl (5 Jun 2009)

Isn't there a problem with having the two central floating panels - what happens to crumbs/spillages etc. Surely they will just work their way into the rebates in which the panels sit :? 

Cheers

Karl


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## stef (5 Jun 2009)

Karl":1gxx62pl said:


> Isn't there a problem with having the two central floating panels - what happens to crumbs/spillages etc. Surely they will just work their way into the rebates in which the panels sit :?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Karl



yes, this is what bothers me a bit too.
I dont mind a little gap showing, but there is a risk of a larger gap apearing, if i make it frame and panel.
I think i am going to go the simpler root of longer planks and 2 breadboards.
I still havent been able to check the stock i have left, especially the longer boards. but if i have enough, i'll go the traditional root of 2 breadboards only at each end.
if not, it will be panel and frame.
I'll keep you posted on the progress.
today, i managed to get one of the long side more or less trued and cut to size.


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## Richard Findley (6 Jun 2009)

To minimise gaps you could glue up the insert panel and leave it floating, more like a door with a raised and fielded panel than T&G.

Richard


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## MikeG. (6 Jun 2009)

You can of course glue the "floating" panels in place.

That may sound silly, but..........

........if you glue only the middle of them into the rebates, say 3 or 4 inches of glue-length in the middle at either end, then you will have retained the panels in place, yet still enabled the wood to expand and contract.

All of this is a question of how stable the internal environment in your house is. If you have a house that doesn't change temperature or humidity very much, then make it all fit tight and glue it all up.........so long as you have stabilised the wood by a period of acclimatisation in the house.

If your house varies in temeperature and humidity, particularly if this is seasonal, then follow all the advice you have been given.

Mike


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## Mailman14 (6 Jun 2009)

Hi Stef, I'm a newbie here, please don't take offense at the info below - quoted (almost verbatim) from 'Collins complete wood workers manual': -

Quote:
*Elbow room*
_600mm (2 ft)_
This is sufficient space for an adult to wield a knife and fork without obstructing his or her neighbour.
End Quote.

They also allow (at the end of the table) 250mm (10in) for knee movement, so:-
1000mm wide should be fine;
2100mm long = enough space for two people along the length each side, and one at each end. NOT enough to seat 3 comfortably IMHO.

So, so long as you're not regularly seating more than 6, the size planned seems fine, bit of a stretch for short armed people (I did say armed  ).

Hope that helps?


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## stef (7 Jun 2009)

Mailman14":j4kd93zw said:


> Hi Stef, I'm a newbie here, please don't take offense at the info below - quoted (almost verbatim) from 'Collins complete wood workers manual': -
> 
> Quote:
> *Elbow room*
> ...



thanks for this.
however, the stock i am playing with will not give me that much option.
I will try to make it as big as possible with what i've got, and that's slighly smaller than the original plan.
I should end up at 1970mmx850mm...
here is what i could use:







and this is how i finally set it up.


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## Mailman14 (7 Jun 2009)

Hi there Stef, even at the slightly smaller size you quoted, there's enough space to get 6 round the table comfortably. I know it comes down to maximising the use of your available wood, and reducing offcuts etc (the bane of a "treehugger" - me!)

I've spent hours over figuring out the best use of wood, leaving it to one side, moving it round, drawing / cutting bits of paper to 'nest' them best.

In the end, offcuts do come in handy for splits / models, oh, and the coal fire in the living room!

Seriously though, if you get anything left over, I find making dowels out of them quite satisfying! (I saw down pallet chunks, use a steel tube 10mm i/d, and hammer the dowels out, then drill a 10mm hole in the framework - hey presto - less scrap!). Look at my projects thread for a piccy.

Good luck, looks like some nice wood there!


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## stef (27 Jun 2009)

I made reasonable progress on this project:
I have most planks for the top ready to assemble.
i measured the whole width so far, i am at 840mm.. which is a little narrow to my taste.
So..here is a question:
I could keep it as it is: top sketch.
or, i could insert 50mm boards either around the middle plank (bottom sketch) or around the 3 middle planks, not shown.







what would you do ?


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## OPJ (27 Jun 2009)

I like the graduation in the board widths (120, 180, 240mm) and I think that, for the sake of aesthetics, it would probably be better for a 1900mm long top to be a bit wider than 840mm...

Not sure about the 50mm idea though - what about inserting 25mm widths in between each wide board?


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## stef (27 Jun 2009)

OPJ":2l72ds14 said:


> I like the graduation in the board widths (120, 180, 240mm) and I think that, for the sake of aesthetics, it would probably be better for a 1900mm long top to be a bit wider than 840mm...
> 
> Not sure about the 50mm idea though - what about inserting 25mm widths in between each wide board?



umm..
i share your view on the width..940 would definitely be nicer.
but the 50mm planks would look odd.
i'll do a sketch with the 25mm, as suggested.
4x25mm planks... thats a bit of extra work unplanned for. oh well..


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## stef (30 Jun 2009)

I decided to go for the 4x25mm strips.
I glued 2 around the center plank this afternoon. Bscuit joined.
They are currently 35mm as i plan to rabbet them back by 10mm to form the tongue that will fit in the next plank.













The 2 outer beams have a bit of a bow (1 or 2%), so i cramped them to the bench in order to try to straighten them. They are flexible enough to take it, and more.
How long should i leave them jigged like this to see a difference ?
they are the 3 bigger pieces on the RHS.


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## stef (12 Jul 2009)

Good progress on this this week end.
I did all the TG joints for the 5 boards and 4 strips. i assembled, and glued the lot.
fairly happy with it.
one thing worries me a little though is that my joins are fairly small in comparison to the weight of the top.
i doubt the board will stay in place if i lifted the top carelessly. regardless of the glue. i normal use, the top wont be moved, so i am not too worried. i am just a little concerned when i will be handlling it to finish it.


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## stef (16 Jul 2009)

breadboards morticed, tenons cut...














just need a little adjustement (or a heavy hammer) to drive them fully home.
then it's glue and dowels (only on the middle plank, of course)


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## LarryS. (16 Jul 2009)

how the **** are you going to finish off the top ? Will you be sanding the lot down by hand ? :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## big soft moose (16 Jul 2009)

LarryS":2nvfyxqe said:


> how the **** are you going to finish off the top ? Will you be sanding the lot down by hand ? :shock: :shock: :shock:



If it were me i'd use a belt sander with 80G , then follow up with a random orbital with 120 and 240 - doing something that big by hand will take ages.


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## stef (17 Jul 2009)

LarryS":wwz6th5c said:


> how the **** are you going to finish off the top ? Will you be sanding the lot down by hand ? :shock: :shock: :shock:



It still need some work with the 7 plane, then the jack plane, and followed by the belt sander and then the orbital sander...
plenty of work left to do !
I still havent settled on a finish. it's most likely going to be "fond dur" (some sort of pore filler, protecter) followed by shellac and wax.


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## studders (17 Jul 2009)

stef":1vct4axv said:


> LarryS":1vct4axv said:
> 
> 
> > how the **** are you going to finish off the top ? Will you be sanding the lot down by hand ? :shock: :shock: :shock:
> ...


If it were me and assuming you're going for a rustic look then I wouldn't bother with the plane. I'd just hit it with a belt sander, across then along the grain, going from 40g to 120g.


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## stef (17 Jul 2009)

studders":2m8h245u said:


> stef":2m8h245u said:
> 
> 
> > LarryS":2m8h245u said:
> ...



i would too, but there are still a few high spots i need to sort out. i like the rustic look, but i am not too keen on wobbly plates !


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## studders (17 Jul 2009)

stef":1prysthc said:


> i would too, but there are still a few high spots i need to sort out. i like the rustic look, but i am not too keen on wobbly plates !



Nowt wrong with wobbly plates, makes dinner time more fun. Seriously tho, using a straight edge to find the high spots you could still knock them back with the belt sander. Not sure a No7, unless used as a scrub, is going to be the right tool for this.


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## stef (17 Jul 2009)

studders":321cj5q5 said:


> stef":321cj5q5 said:
> 
> 
> > i would too, but there are still a few high spots i need to sort out. i like the rustic look, but i am not too keen on wobbly plates !
> ...



why is that ? (naive question from a beginner) i have been at it for about 90mins this evening, on the n7, and it's slowly getting flat. i dont use it with the grain, but diagonally to the grain, in a criss-cross way, across the table. it seems to work out, and really flattening it out... (it may be more hills and valleys than it looks in the picture). Some of the middle board had a slight cupping.
I still have maybe a couple of hours or work left with the 7, to get it flat everywhere, and then its belt sander.


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## OPJ (17 Jul 2009)

One advantage in using a scrub plane is that you can remove 'high spots' very quickly, due to the heavily-cambered blade. I recently noticed Paul Chapman has a blade like this specifically for his no.6 or no.7 plane (I forget which), he says this suits him better. You'd still require a standard square-edged blade for final finishing once you get close to flat. Perhaps something to bear in mind for a future project?

Cutting diagonally across the grain first is also the best way to go. I admire your approach to building this table, I've never seen anyone take sawn timber this far through a build before.


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## studders (17 Jul 2009)

stef":1kcpljjm said:


> why is that ? (naive question from a beginner) i have been at it for about 90mins this evening, on the n7, and it's slowly getting flat. i dont use it with the grain, but diagonally to the grain, in a criss-cross way, across the table. it seems to work out, and really flattening it out... (it may be more hills and valleys than it looks in the picture). Some of the middle board had a slight cupping.
> I still have maybe a couple of hours or work left with the 7, to get it flat everywhere, and then its belt sander.



Maybe its just me, I'm not 'that' experienced myself but, imagine you have a hollow surrounded by level wood, surely the long plane is going to ride on the high, level part until you get down to the level of the hollow? This may be what is needed to get an absolutely flat surface but is that necessary here? My suggestion of the belt sander was that, being shorter, you could blend the two to an acceptable degree without taking off so much wood as planing would need.


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## stef (18 Jul 2009)

studders":1gw33fa6 said:


> stef":1gw33fa6 said:
> 
> 
> > why is that ? (naive question from a beginner) i have been at it for about 90mins this evening, on the n7, and it's slowly getting flat. i dont use it with the grain, but diagonally to the grain, in a criss-cross way, across the table. it seems to work out, and really flattening it out... (it may be more hills and valleys than it looks in the picture). Some of the middle board had a slight cupping.
> ...



you are right.
however, i also have parts of the table which are above the average level (due to the cupping of some boards). those, i need to get flat. i am sure there will be hollows left in there, but those, as you suggest, i will reach with the belt sander.


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## stef (25 Jul 2009)

planned, and the sanding has started.
started shaping the legs too..


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## stef (26 Jul 2009)

Cut loads of dowels, drilled some holes in the legs, prepared the frame, and assembled.
I used the technique where you drill the leg first, then mark the tenons, inside de mortice, pull the tenon out again, and drill but closer to the shoulder than should be. this way, the dowel sorts of zigzag through the tenon, pulling it tight against the mortices shoulders.
works a threat !


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## DaveL (26 Jul 2009)

I like the look of the table, its coming together nicely.  


stef":3a91ypsf said:


> I used the technique where you drill the leg first, then mark the tenons, inside de mortice, pull the tenon out again, and drill but closer to the shoulder than should be. this way, the dowel sorts of zigzag through the tenon, pulling it tight against the mortices shoulders.
> works a threat !


This is called draw boring, the dowel does indeed tighten the joint, they are very secure.


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## OPJ (26 Jul 2009)

Ah, yes, good old draw-boring!  It does work very well, although you have to be a bit 'brave' and offset the holes by at least 2-3mm otherwise, the shoulders may not pull up far enough. Yours look very good though. The other advantage is that you can free up your sash cramps.


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## stef (28 Jul 2009)

today, after a little more sanding, i gave the top a big wash of insect/worm destroying liquid..this give a good idea of what it will look like when finished. It should take 48h to dry. i'll give it a week.


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## Tierney (28 Jul 2009)

Looks good, a nice solid piece of furniture. Looking at the reflection you seem to have done a good job flattening the top.

DT


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## fyall (31 Jul 2009)

stef":9ce1f77c said:


> breadboards morticed, tenons cut...
> 
> just need a little adjustement (or a heavy hammer) to drive them fully home.
> then it's glue and dowels (only on the middle plank, of course)



Stef

I missed a step when you fitted the breadboard ends. Did you only mortice and tenon the two outside boards onto the ends? Why did you just dowel the middle board?

Sorry if I'm asking a stupid question.


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## DaveL (31 Jul 2009)

fyall":1f91w74l said:


> Why did you just dowel the middle board?


Bread board ends need to float as the cross grain long grain expansions will be different. The usual practise is to have one 'master' fixing on the centre line, any thing else must allow for the different amounts of movement.


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## stef (31 Jul 2009)

fyall":3vqjmczf said:


> stef":3vqjmczf said:
> 
> 
> > breadboards morticed, tenons cut...
> ...



I routed a 1.5inch tenon across the whole width of the table. then a mortice on the breadboards being carefull not to go right to the end.
After a bit of adjusting, the breadboard end went on tight. i removed it. I drilled 4 dowel holes on the underside of the breadboard: 2 close to each other in the middle, and 1 on each end of the breadboard. I was carefull not to go right through the other side. i fitted the breadboard again, and marked where the holes land on the tenon. I then removed the breadboard once more, and drilled the 4 holes on the tenon, 1mm closer to the shoulder. I also transformed the 2 outside holes in the breadboard into slots. fitted the bread board on again (gluing only 2-3 inches in the middle), and drove the dowels home.
This way, the top can expand and contract, it will not break. And the fit is pretty tight !


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## LarryS. (1 Aug 2009)

just had a eureaka moment, i think !

I've never quite understood breadboard ends / how they allow for movement but prevent a gap opening up, 

from what you've said Stef it sounds to me like you have a set-up which keep the ends of the table tight to the breadboard, but there could be the possibility of the long edges of the table not quite aligning to the ends of the breadboards (if the table expands sideways either out or in) ?

is this right ?


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## OPJ (1 Aug 2009)

Paul, what you have described sounds correct. Again, as I have just done in Bloonose's thread, I'll advise you to check out John Lloyd's article in the new issue of _British Woodworking_ :roll:, where he goes in to a bit more detail. :wink:



DaveL":v3ym0xum said:


> Bread board ends need to float as the cross grain long grain expansions will be different. The usual practise is to have one 'master' fixing on the centre line, any thing else must allow for the different amounts of movement.



I've always believed this as well... But, in that aforementioned article, you can clearly see John not only glues his 'loose tenon' but he's applying glue along the edge of the 'cleat'... :shock: I'll have to e-mail Nick about this one! :-k


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## stef (10 Aug 2009)

Right, the finish is now going on.
fist, the surface is sanded, checked and rechecked, and then wiped quickly with white spirit.




then a coat of "fond dur" is applied (it's some sort of grain filler/protector)
and after a day or so, it was rubbed with fine steelwool.




ready for the last coat.





now:

what do you reckon...
should i give it a couple of coat of shellac, or should i go straight to the wax ?
(apparently, the fonddur is good enough to wax straight on.. i think i'll skip the shellac)


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## stef (11 Aug 2009)

Finished !
at last !


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## TrimTheKing (11 Aug 2009)

Very nice Stef, I like that a lot. Really works well with the chairs and the other furiture in the room.

Will be interested in how the breadboard ends hold up over time with movement, if you are brave enough to post...


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## Paul Chapman (11 Aug 2009)

Looks good, Stef 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (11 Aug 2009)

stef":2uqa82x0 said:


> ... rubbed with fine steelwool.



If it's oak you're using, avoid steel wool like the plague :x as minute particles can break off which will eventually go black. I generally use the Webrax pads which both cut back the finish and allow a coat of wax to be applied as well - Rob


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## OPJ (11 Aug 2009)

That's come up very well indeed. Nice one!


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## Weirwolf (11 Aug 2009)

I'm a big fan of oak and I like this table a lot. 
The reclaimed wood you have used is full of character. I like the way you have finished it too. If it's over finished I think it starts to look false. 

I think you have done a grand job and one to which I aspire.


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## chris_d (11 Aug 2009)

Solid, chunky and honest carpentry - I love it and you should feel very proud!


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## stef (11 Aug 2009)

well, thank you guys.
It's probably my most accomplished work to date.
i'll keep you updated if the breadboard goes wrong.
Thanks again for the tips, especially the 4 strips of 25mm instead of the 2x50mm i was planning to use ! this was inspired !
One "mistake" thing i will not do again though: The two dowels i used on each leg join are not supposed to line up with the grain.. i read recently in a book that this was a big no no...too late for this project though.


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