# MFT - wossit all about?



## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Still trying to find a demo of somebody doing something useful on one of these very expensive tables with holes in things.
Total failure so far.
Is it just about buying attractive gadgets?
What can they do which can't be done on a normal bench, or even a B&D workmate (£44 B&Q) and a lot easier too?
Mystified.
This seems typical, he doesn't rate it much himself even though he's some sort of enthusiast:


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## Daniel2 (1 Dec 2021)

I also fail to understand what all the fuss is about.
I do have the Festool tracks, but never have any problem
clamping them how I want, either on my bench or using
my pair of traditional trestles.
Just something to spend loads of time and money on, IMO.

Grumpy of Tunbridge Wells.


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## Adam W. (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Still trying to find a demo of somebody doing something useful on one of these very expensive tables with holes in things.
> Total failure so far.
> Is it just about buying attractive gadgets?
> What can they do which can't be done on a normal bench, or even a B&D workmate (£44 B&Q) and a lot easier too?
> ...




I asked this a while back and got no answer.

I guess it's something for those who like to have a system to buy into. I'm not going to venture an opinion as to whether it's good or bad, but if it flicks your switch that's fine by me.


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## DBT85 (1 Dec 2021)

Have you tried watching a video from someone who actually knows what they are doing with one? Mr Millard perhaps?

I mean it's clear you don't like them and I'm not sure that you want to like them and that's fine. I just tend to focus my efforts on things I actually am interested in rather than cotinuing to expose myself to things that I don't like 

There are plenty here who have one, use it, and are happy using it in different ways for different things. As for very expensive, which bit are we talking about here? an MDF sheet with holes in is about £40. The horror.

Mine is mostly used with a fence and 2 dogs to get fast repeatable square cuts, but its also been used to use a few holes to clamp something down when routing, or using a domino.

As always there are many ways of skinning a dog. Just do what works for you and if you see something that you think might be better for you, do it that way instead.


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## RobinBHM (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> What can they do which can't be done on a normal bench, or even a B&D workmate (£44 B&Q) and a lot easier too?



Jacob, its about using a festool track saw -if you dont have one or have not used one, you probably wont see the benefit

the MFT system enables quick and simple parallel cuts


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## city17 (1 Dec 2021)

It's a great way to get fast, accurate, and repeatable cuts in a small space. There are more ways to get the same results, but it's a very convenient way to get started. If you purchase a pre-drilled MDF sheet as @DBT85 suggests, and a few benchdogs and a decent track saw, you can make very accurate and repeatable cuts that would be hard to make on any other equipment for the same price.

Of course there's many accessories and you can make it as expensive as you want, and at that higher price point there may be better options out there. But that doesn't mean it's not useful.


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## Sporky McGuffin (1 Dec 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> the MFT system enables quick and simple parallel cuts



Ah!

I'd also been wondering what the whole MFT thing was about. Not from a position of cynicism, just confusion. Thank you.


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

I think it all comes down to what types of materials you are regularly cutting/clamping and working with .....If those materials are sheet material, then the MFT is, in my opinion, the best option ( If you haven't got a Panel saw with a scribing blade that is..!..)

Man made boards, especially the pre finished type ( such as MFC or MFMDF) can be a b u g g e r to cut and machine cleanly and repetitively square.....The MFT, a track saw with the correct good quality blade in it and a few dogs, allows you to do this.

Clamping small sections of material by means of the dog holes is also so useful.....

Yes, you could measure every panel and cut / rout each one individually, but it would be far slower and far less accurate. 

I wouldn't want to be without my two....

Edit. Coincidentally, I've just used my 2440 x1220 MFT this morning in the process of making and edging 4 cabinet doors ......They were all the same size, so once everything was set up, it was straightforward. If I'd had to make them all by means of manual measurements, I'd still be out there now....


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Have you tried watching a video from someone who actually knows what they are doing with one? Mr Millard perhaps?


No but I've been looking for one! They seem a bit thin on the ground, which is my point. They seem to be all about the gadgets and the expensive £100 squares which you also have to have. 
I'll have a look at Mr Millard's.


> ..... As for very expensive, which bit are we talking about here? an MDF sheet with holes in is about £40. The horror......


Er - well that is rather expensive yes, especially as they seem to be sacrificial - or is the chap in the vid doing it wrong somehow?


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> I think it all comes down to what types of materials you are regularly cutting/clamping and working with .....If those materials are sheet material, then the MFT is, in my opinion, the best option.
> 
> Man made boards, especially the pre finished type ( such as MFC or MFMDF) can be a b u g g e r to cut and machine cleanly and repetitively square.....The MFT, a track saw with the correct good blade in it and a few dogs, allows you to do this.
> 
> ...


OK so it's for fast repeat cuts in MDF MFC etc. Thanks for that, now I know!
I'd do them on my TS, or if on the bench by extemporising with a straight edge and clamps. Lengths of MFC shelving make good straight edges - and excellent saw boards if you wanted to get technical.




__





Sawboard - DIYWiki







wiki.diyfaq.org.uk





It looks like all the other stuff is about dubious add-ons in an attempt to make it more useful.


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## LBCarpentry (1 Dec 2021)

We don't have the festool one but we do have the Axminster 1700 benches in our workshop and they incredibly handy. They have dog holes as well as 2 x nice big timber vices - Being able to clamp from any point on the bench makes things much easier. The vices combined with the dog holes are very handy for sanding as well as clamping. They have, without doubt sped up our process of finishing windows and now we wouldn't be without them. Obviously with festool you get the mobility and reputation which in turn comes with a bigger price tag.


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> ....I'd do them on my TS,....



Sorry Jacob,....But that's just not good enough!! The finish achieved by a normal table saw when cutting this type of material is nowhere near the quality that can be achieved by a tracksaw or router.
A panel saw with a scribing blade, Yes.....But not a standard table saw!


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Sorry Jacob,....But that's just not good enough!! The finish achieved by a normal table saw when cutting this type of material is nowhere near the quality that can be achieved by a tracksaw or router.
> A panel saw with a scribing blade, Yes.....But not a standard table saw!


I have cut MFC and MDF on my TS with a finer blade. No problem. It's a good quality machine with a sliding table, which makes a big difference.


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> ....well that is rather expensive yes, especially as they seem to be sacrificial....



My Festool MFT is 8 years old....







My 2440 x 1220 top is about 3 years old






Both are used extensively......How many more years use out of them do you think I will get before they need to be replaced...?
Bear in mind, once the top side is "worn out", you just flip it over and you use the other side...


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I have cut MFC and MDF on my TS with a finer blade. No problem. It's a good quality machine with a sliding table, which makes a big difference.



You will not get as good a cut on a table saw as you would with a tracksaw on this type of material, as pictured below....front & back.!!!


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> My Festool MFT is 8 years old....
> 
> View attachment 123042
> 
> ...


OK I've got the picture! 
I thought there might be more to it than that - If I get around to regularly doing a lot of repeat cuts in MDF I might consider it, though more likely I'd bodge something up equivalent, without buying expensive extra gadgets.


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> .....I thought there might be more to it than that....



Cutting and machining this type of material is far more of a challenge than cutting bare MDF or plywood......

If I was cutting real timber, more often than not, I would use my table saw or bandsaw but manmade pre finished materials require better quality cuts.

The clamping & dog options are only limited by lack of imagination ......the possibilities are almost endless.


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## Jameshow (1 Dec 2021)

I'm guessing it depends on your style of woodworking. 

If you a big sheet material user then great....

If your a real wood worker then no so much.

I tend to use ply for backs of cabinets / drawer bases. 

Cheers James


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## Jameshow (1 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Cutting and machining this type of material is far more of a challenge than cutting bare MDF or plywood......
> 
> If I was cutting real timber, more often than not, I would use my table saw or bandsaw but manmade pre finished materials require better quality cuts.
> 
> The clamping & dog options are only limited by lack of imagination ......the possibilities are almost endless.


Does the track saw stop chipping splintering the board / wood. Never used one so don't know?? 

Cheers James


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> I'm guessing it depends on your style of woodworking.
> 
> If you a big sheet material user then great....
> 
> ...


Some of the vids I looked at show people trying to do things to bits of real wood but very unconvincingly.


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Does the track saw stop chipping splintering the board / wood. ....
> 
> Cheers James



Yes, that's one of the main advantages that you have cutting this type of material. You get clean chip free cuts top & bottom....as you can see from my photos.

I use my Festool MFT for holding real timber whilst Dominoing the mortices and for sanding. Because the 20mm holes are all bang on square, you can also use it as a clamping aid with dogs etc during a glue up. A couple of examples may be ...A picture frame, a face frame for a cabinet or a 5 piece door can all be clamped up easily and guaranteed square.


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## Adam W. (1 Dec 2021)

That sounds interesting. I wonder if I can get a top for the Festool table that I have, it would be great to have something exactly square to speed up smaller picture frame assembly.


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## Ollie78 (1 Dec 2021)

I find mine very useful. It's not fancy in any way but it has many little features that can be handy for all sorts of things. I used to do a great deal of sash window restoration which would involve setting up a mini workshop in people's homes. I initially had a couple of black and decker workmates and various other clamps and stands etc. The workmates were too low and gave me backache.
The MFT seemed good so I got one and it's brilliant (must be 10 years old now).
Its taller so no backache, you can use the dogs and holes to clamp things square, cut things square quickly, clamp stuff to the sides for machining, do glazing on it as its a decent size etc etc.
It's very good for stuff like wood or laminate flooring as you set the saw and dogs up once and can quickly trim the boards without getting out a big mitre saw.

For me it's positioned between a black and decker workmate and a proper bench. Now I do a lot less site work but I still use the mft all the time when I need an extra table for whatever.
It's just a useful tool.

Ollie


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> ....I wonder if I can get a top for the Festool table that I have.....



Festool do offer a replacement top to fit their MFT table,....but you can also get aftermarket replacements that are quite a bit cheaper...!
I think plywood options are also readily available.


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

If I were chopping out mortices or regularly hand cutting dovetails, hand sawing & hand planning timber for example, then the MFT wouldn't be my first choice.
The metal frame doesn't really have enough rigidity for that type of work. They do offer additional diagonal braces for it which do add to its overall stiffness, but as with anything Festool,.....they ain't cheap.
A proper wood working bench would certainly be better in this respect.

The portability is a factor though......The Festool MFT type bench isn't the lightest but it's really not too difficult to just pick it up, stick it in your van and take it to site.


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## DBT85 (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Er - well that is rather expensive yes, especially as they seem to be sacrificial - or is the chap in the vid doing it wrong somehow?


It doubles as a workbench top for anything else you are doing, be that finishing or painting or whatever and as you've now seen, they are sacrificial but we're talking years of use on one side and then just flip it over. If you were making say, an outfeed table for your table saw, you could instead of just using a regular MDF top, make it a holey top and have a few more options at your disposal. It doesn't have to be (and I think rarely is) just for cutting things square or clamping stuff usefully. I don't think, in that instance that £40 or whatever it is now is that bad but again, each to their own.

You are predominantly making cuts in one section of the board, so you can just route a slot and put in a sacrificial strip there that you can replace if needed later.

But there's little doubt they offer greater benefits for sheet materials than for unmolested wood.



Adam W. said:


> That sounds interesting. I wonder if I can get a top for the Festool table that I have, it would be great to have something exactly square to speed up smaller picture frame assembly.



Plenty of CNC suppliers on ebay will make you one to whatever size you want, whatever hole pattern you want. Failing that, someone here with one of the jigs could probably do it for you.


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## PerryGunn (1 Dec 2021)

There's also a space-saving benefit when using a tracksaw to break down sheet materials, this is very useful when you are constrained by the available space. 

Although you can easily break down a full sheet with a table saw, you tend to need lots of space around the table saw to manoeuvre the whole sheet and slide it through the saw. With a tracksaw, the sheet remains static so you don't need much more space than the sheet itself. While you don't 'need' an MFT for this, it certainly makes the job simpler/faster.



Distinterior said:


> If I were chopping out mortices or regularly hand cutting dovetails, hand sawing & hand planning timber for example, then the MFT wouldn't be my first choice.
> The metal frame doesn't really have enough rigidity for that type of work. They do offer additional diagonal braces for it which do add to its overall stiffness, but as with anything Festool,.....they ain't cheap.
> A proper wood working bench would certainly be better in this respect.


I agree that the 'standard' MFT can lack rigidity,but a lot of people have either put an MFT-style top on a frame they've built themselves or incorporated a grid of holes into a larger 'proper' woodworking bench - whatever helps them work the way they want to


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## martin.pearson (1 Dec 2021)

I'm not a proper woodworker, I don't possess those skills plus I don't have a proper woodworking bench or a decent tablesaw, I built my own MFT style top to work with a track saw & it works very well for me, no I am sure it is not the only way to achieve accurate cuts in any wood. It gets used for all sorts of jobs that yes could be done other ways but they work for me & that's really what it's all about for me. being fairly new to all this I haven't spent years working a different way so this is pretty much all I know.


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## paulrbarnard (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I have cut MFC and MDF on my TS with a finer blade. No problem. It's a good quality machine with a sliding table, which makes a big difference.


And how expensive was that?


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## Adam W. (1 Dec 2021)

More than 40 quid.


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## JJ1 (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob,

I'm not sure what all these expensive gadgets are that you're going on about. I've been using the MFT top extensively for about seven years on virtually every project. The top was £40 and will last for many, many years and I've never felt the need for ANY expensive gadgets. The cuts are 100% accurate and clean. Should I need the set up away from home. I can grab the top and the B & D workmate it sits on (£5 from a car boot sale) and move it easily and to any location with minimal effort and hassle. Can you do that with your table saw? I thought not. The MFT top also makes a fantastic worktop with excellent clamping versatility. Another thing you can't do on your table saw.

You can't have looked very well for the video's showing the benefits of using the MFT system. YouTube has plenty of them.

Perhaps try one and gain a little experience before adopting the negative attitude.


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

My table saw is a combi (saw, PT, Spindle, sliding table) essential workshop kit and does many more things than a track saw and I wasn't comparing them on that basis.
The comparison is more with the B&D work mate and hand held circular saw, though I'd take 2 saw horses and a board on site - much more versatile, workmates are rubbish really.
The gadgets and the first vid I saw are here 20% OFF Bench Dogs


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> ....The comparison is more with the B&D work mate and hand held circular saw, though I'd take 2 saw horses and a board on site - much more versatile....



It has to be said Jacob,....I would suggest you give up now....."A Black & Decker workmate and hand held circular saw"...!!?!?? Perhaps in the 1970's..!
How can you even think this would be a remotely modern comparison to what is now available...?

Your comments clearly show your lack of willingness to consider options other than your own outdated methods.


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> It has to be said Jacob,....I would suggest you give up now....."A Black & Decker workmate and hand held circular saw"...!!?!?? Perhaps in the 1970's..!
> How can you even think this would be a remotely modern comparison to what is now available...?


The Festool MFT thing IS a flimsy table and a hand held circular saw is it not? Plus a sheet of MDF.


> Your comments clearly show your lack of willingness to consider options other than your own outdated methods.


Are you a school teacher?  I wouldn't be asking if I wasn't considering options would I?
I'm suspicious of the gadget trend - it was the bench dog sale 20% OFF Bench Dogs which set me off - all those expensive add-ons and shiny bits n bobs!


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## Daniel2 (1 Dec 2021)

I'll concede that this thread has me looking at the MFT concept
with fresh eyes.


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## Distinterior (1 Dec 2021)

But why do you try to poo poo methods that you haven't tried Jacob...??

The general consensus of this thread is that the MFT system is useful, accurate, repetitive and adaptable.
Just because you dont see that, doesn't make it pointless or extravagant.....


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## MikeK (1 Dec 2021)

I divided my workshop into two areas. The original 5x4.5 meter area has all of the large chip producing equipment that connects to the fixed dust collection system, such as the table saw, bandsaw, router table, and miter saw. The newer 5x4.5 meter area has my woodworking bench, MFT-style workbench, and all of my Festool equipment that connect to the portable dust collection system. 

I use everything on some projects and would never consider eliminating one in favor of another. I could live without the Minimax SC2 Classic sliding saw now, but before I built the MFT-style workbench, it was my primary saw for lumber and sheet goods. I would have loved a combination slider like Jacob has, but it would never fit down the stairs into my basement. I had to disassemble the SC2C, and it barely fit around the corners.

The new section of my shop is in a bit of a mess now, as I am in the middle of a major rebuild of my P/T, but here is an image that shows peaceful co-existence of the Sjöbergs workbench and my MFT-style workbench. 









I can easily and quickly transition the MFT workbench from a tracksaw station to an assembly or work surface by removing the FS 1400/2 track and lowering the track guides. I have a storage area above my clamp rack to store a FS 3000/2, FS 1400/2LR-32, and two FS 800/2 tracks. The FS 1400/2 and fence that goes with the MFT workbench stows in the space under the worktop when not being used.


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> But why do you try to poo poo methods that you haven't tried Jacob...??
> 
> The general consensus of this thread is that the MFT system is useful, accurate, repetitive and adaptable.
> Just because you dont see that, doesn't make it pointless....


It's the adaptable bit that's missing. OK good for repetitive cuts in boards but the promos all hint at some sort of universal system, which it clearly isn't, which is why I was asking, thats all.
PS I do do something similar for holding pieces sometimes - nails or screws into the bench itself as extra stops, or a piece of mdf on top of the bench with laths pinned on for planing odd shapes difficult to hold. Nearly all my hand planing is in the vice, or against my one bench dog, sometimes with a lath against the dog held G clamped at the other end


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## Adam W. (1 Dec 2021)

Ye gads


MikeK said:


> I divided my workshop into two areas. The original 5x4.5 meter area has all of the large chip producing equipment that connects to the fixed dust collection system, such as the table saw, bandsaw, router table, and miter saw. The newer 5x4.5 meter area has my woodworking bench, MFT-style workbench, and all of my Festool equipment that connect to the portable dust collection system.
> 
> I use everything on some projects and would never consider eliminating one in favor of another. I could live without the Minimax SC2 Classic sliding saw now, but before I built the MFT-style workbench, it was my primary saw for lumber and sheet goods. I would have loved a combination slider like Jacob has, but it would never fit down the stairs into my basement. I had to disassemble the SC2C, and it barely fit around the corners.
> 
> ...


Ye gads that's tidy !


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## Sporky McGuffin (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> The Festool MFT thing IS a flimsy table and a hand held circular saw is it not? Plus a sheet of MDF.



That's a bit reductionist. Your tablesaw is just a table with a slidey bit and a circular saw - it doesn't even have the bit of MDF...


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## Spectric (1 Dec 2021)

Yes I can see where Jacob and Daniel are coming from as I have been there and like them could not see where having lots of holes in my workbench would help, but could forsee crawling around under the bench gathering items that had fallen through.

It took some time but looking at the Hooked on wood site made a difference, just holes was not for me but holes and microjig slots is another ball game, the holes allow for alignment and slots for clamping but not directly in my workbench, I use tops that sit on my workbench. I now have a good solution for aligning and clamping but do not use my tracksaw on the system, just as easy standalone.


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## Lonsdale73 (1 Dec 2021)




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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> That's a bit reductionist. Your tablesaw is just a table with a slidey bit and a circular saw - it doesn't even have the bit of MDF...


No - one of the vids shows the table being really wobbly like a paste table. You couldn't plane or saw on it.


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## Spectric (1 Dec 2021)

@MikeK very neat and tidy workshop, see you have the Woodpecker one time dial gauge sitting there which is a nice solid tool.

That shop is so clean and tidy you could live in it , do you have a bed tucked away in there!


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## Adam W. (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> No - one of the vids shows the table being really wobbly like a paste table. *You couldn't plane or saw on it.*


 My bold.
That's not the point dude. Where's the facepalm emoji ?


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## Sporky McGuffin (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> No - one of the vids shows the table being really wobbly like a paste table. You couldn't plane or saw on it.



Why would you? You don't fry eggs on your tablesaw.


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## Adam W. (1 Dec 2021)




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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Lonsdale73 said:


>


Thanks for that. Says it all really. Not for me. Some expensive kit there!


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Why would you? You don't fry eggs on your tablesaw.


Frying eggs isn't woodwork.


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## Sporky McGuffin (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Frying eggs isn't woodwork.



Planing and handsawing aren't what an MFT is for.


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> My bold.
> That's not the point dude. Where's the facepalm emoji ?


2 of the vids showed people planing bits and bobs, with difficulty! Dropped in dogs, cam levers , packing pieces etc. And there are general hints about other uses.
It's OK I've got it it's for repeated cuts of man-made board.


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## MikeK (1 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> @MikeK very neat and tidy workshop, see you have the Woodpecker one time dial gauge sitting there which is a nice solid tool.



The gauge is the Multi-Gauge by Oneway. The frame is cast iron and is one of the two dial gauges I use in my shop for alignment. The other gauge is an inexpensive dial gauge on a magnetic base.



Spectric said:


> That shop is so clean and tidy you could live in it , do you have a bed tucked away in there!



Thank you. This comes from a life-long habit of cleaning up and storing tools at the end of every shift. This was a requirement in the military to make sure all tools were accounted for and not left in a piece of equipment. There used to be a full-size couch, but I moved that into my wife's music room next door to make room for the computer table.


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## Adam W. (1 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> 2 of the vids showed people planing bits and bobs, with difficulty! Dropped in dogs, cam levers , packing pieces etc. And there are general hints about other uses.
> It's OK I've got it it's for repeated cuts of man-made board.


I didn't bother to watch the videos.


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## Jacob (1 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I didn't bother to watch the videos.


I couldn't tear myself away.


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## Terry - Somerset (1 Dec 2021)

I hadn't seen an MFT in action before. Lots of food for thought - even though I only do sheet work occassionally, the time saved and accuracy (square and dimensions) improvement with a tracksaw or router would be worthwhile.

At £40 for a sheet + possibly the same again for a few dogs and clamps it may be worthwhile even for occassional use. Due to space constraints would need to be mountable/demountable from the top of my existing workbench - probably an easy fix.


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## DBT85 (1 Dec 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> At £40 for a sheet + possibly the same again for a few dogs and clamps it may be worthwhile even for occassional use. Due to space constraints would need to be mountable/demountable from the top of my existing workbench - probably an easy fix.


Terry, this is why many of us have it in some kind of assembly table or outfield table or whatever, it's just there when you need it and when you don't, it's still fine for many other tasks. One might say it was multifunctional.


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## Droogs (1 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> I divided my workshop into two areas. The original 5x4.5 meter area has all of the large chip producing equipment that connects to the fixed dust collection system, such as the table saw, bandsaw, router table, and miter saw. The newer 5x4.5 meter area has my woodworking bench, MFT-style workbench, and all of my Festool equipment that connect to the portable dust collection system.
> 
> I use everything on some projects and would never consider eliminating one in favor of another. I could live without the Minimax SC2 Classic sliding saw now, but before I built the MFT-style workbench, it was my primary saw for lumber and sheet goods. I would have loved a combination slider like Jacob has, but it would never fit down the stairs into my basement. I had to disassemble the SC2C, and it barely fit around the corners.
> 
> ...




You got to love German Dungeons. I miss my Kellar


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## Hornbeam (2 Dec 2021)

I'm a bit with Jacob on this one. I totally get the tracksaw for cutting sheet materials and particularly faced boards but for most people doing non repetitive cuts I cant see it. If I need to cut something at 90 degrees I can set the rail at 90', My biggest use of a track saw is to break down 8 X 4 sheets. Once in half for repetitive \I would use the TS even for laminates, If I want to use an MFT to cut a board up the outer row odf dog holes has to be outside the dimensions of the sheet being cut. I just couldnt justify the space


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## TRITON (2 Dec 2021)

II always thought those wee holes were too ideal for the countersink to fall through.


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## pgrbff (2 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Sorry Jacob,....But that's just not good enough!! The finish achieved by a normal table saw when cutting this type of material is nowhere near the quality that can be achieved by a tracksaw or router.
> A panel saw with a scribing blade, Yes.....But not a standard table saw!


I dont understand. Why does the panel saw need a scribing blade and the MFT doesn't to achieve the same finish? I have always been under the impression a scribing blade produced cleaner cuts where laminate was involved.


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## keithy1959 (2 Dec 2021)

My thoughts :
A MFT table is designed to complement a track saw, and additional fences, dogs etc can speed up repetitive work.
A Track saw is perfect for us mere mortals who don't have the space or kit to cut down 8x4 sheets on a table saw.
If you don't work with a Tracksaw, or seldom use man made boards you are unlikely to see the benefit of an MFT Dog system
A MFT is not a replacement for a work bench, but rather a versatile assembly table
There are better ways to support work for hand sawing and planing. MFTs work better with power tools

Clearly, the OP has an opinion, and it would seem that he has raised this post simply to defend that opinion in as many ways as he can, but for other interested parties out there, they can be extrememly useful in the home workshop. If you use a MDF top for general assembly, drill some holes in it and have a play !!

There is a hidden benefit too - after you've dropped your screws, drills, bits, pencils etc. through the holes for the first few hours, you get much better at keeping things tidy !


----------



## RobinBHM (2 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> I divided my workshop into two areas. The original 5x4.5 meter area has all of the large chip producing equipment that connects to the fixed dust collection system, such as the table saw, bandsaw, router table, and miter saw. The newer 5x4.5 meter area has my woodworking bench, MFT-style workbench, and all of my Festool equipment that connect to the portable dust collection system.
> 
> I use everything on some projects and would never consider eliminating one in favor of another. I could live without the Minimax SC2 Classic sliding saw now, but before I built the MFT-style workbench, it was my primary saw for lumber and sheet goods. I would have loved a combination slider like Jacob has, but it would never fit down the stairs into my basement. I had to disassemble the SC2C, and it barely fit around the corners.
> 
> ...


Wow, that’s really impressive….more operating theatre than wood bashing shop.


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## Distinterior (2 Dec 2021)

pgrbff said:


> I dont understand. Why does the panel saw need a scribing blade and the MFT doesn't to achieve the same finish? I have always been under the impression a scribing blade produced cleaner cuts where laminate was involved.



A table saw blade cuts down into the material and tends to chip out the underside. If the saw has a scribing blade, it pre cuts into the underside by a couple of mm preventing the chip out before the material passes through the main blade.

A tracksaw cuts up from the underside and the track has a sacrificial strip on it that prevents chip out on the upper surface. 
Used in conjunction with a sacrificial sheet below, such as an MFT top, it acts as a zero clearance insert and you get a clean cut on both faces of the board.


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## RobinBHM (2 Dec 2021)

keithy1959 said:


> Clearly, the OP has an opinion, and it would seem that he has raised this post simply to defend that opinion in as many ways as he can



I think Jacob has started a great thread:

I’m looking at getting an MFT for my new professional workshop and I’ve been in 2 minds whether it would be a benefit or not.

I have a panel,saw so won’t be using it for sheet material sawing, I was thinking more for bench work - the MFT seems a quick easy way to clamp stuff for sanding and routing - instead of trestles I’d normally use


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## Adam W. (2 Dec 2021)

For me it has a limited apeal, but that's due to the nature of the things I make and my general aversion to working with panel products, routers and other dust generating power tools.


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## Sporky McGuffin (2 Dec 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I think Jacob has started a great thread:



I agree. I also think he's right that there is a fair bit of "ooh shiny" around MFTs (or, more accurately, the accessories), but I think I see the usefulness of them more than he does, even though I'm not sure I want/need one.


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2021)

keithy1959 said:


> ....
> A Track saw is perfect for us mere mortals who don't have the space or kit to cut down 8x4 sheets on a table saw.


I reduce them to size with a hand held circ saw and straightedge, over 2 saw horses. Have been known to do it with a hand saw.


> ...
> 
> Clearly, the OP has an opinion,


No I didn't at first. I was just intrigued by all that glittering and expensive kit on offer Bench Dogs, Woodworker bench fittings and Fence Dogs and wondered what the fuss and extravagance was about.
Got a bit confused and found myself looking at different things - Festool wotsits, P Parfit gizmos, bench dogs on normal benches and extra gadgets and so on, but with demo of practical use of these things a bit elusive.

I found this vid vaguely comical - a touch of Star Trek, like some sort of uniformed Swat team beamed in to deal with a woodwork emergency, but with a rickety paste table and stuff in over designed boxes - I'd get the props dept to have another look at them!  


Interesting!


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## John Brown (2 Dec 2021)

I'm not sure I'd have the space, but I will look for a Peter Millard YouTube to see what all the fuss is about.


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm not sure I'd have the space, but I will look for a Peter Millard YouTube to see what all the fuss is about.


Me too. I spent yesterday evening looking at old episodes of "Dinner Ladies".


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## Padster (2 Dec 2021)

I think it's all down to what you do, and how you work. I don't have a Festool MFT table that is portable and could be used on site.

I'm only a hobbyist, but do have a bench with an MFT style top made by myself for me, it is invaluable for how I work.

I don't really have enough room for a proper table saw, I used to have a combo machine that had that function but to use on full sheets (rarely admittedly) meant wheeling out onto my drive, my new bench means I can use it with a track saw in-situ.

It also functions as an assembly bench, the holes and set-up give all sorts of additional clamping and jig options I don't have on my standard 'non-holey' bench, in my small workshop in the way that I work it has given me so much extra scope. I use some of the Benchdogs kit you mention and yes it can be a little pricey but again I like it and again the way I work means they add value but I could have made my own variants, and they way I use some of those things means my top (25mm MRMDF) is not sacrificial, but if it was I can replace.

As others have said Jacob it may not be for you or the way you work - but for many it can evolve how you work and what you can do, and could be worth looking at.

BTW the vids by our very own @petermillard are very good and can give more idea of how to leverage.

Regards

Padster


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## John Brown (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I reduce them to size with a hand held circ saw and straightedge, over 2 saw horses. Have been known to do it with a hand saw.No I didn't at first. I was just intrigued by all that glittering and expensive kit on offer Bench Dogs, Woodworker bench fittings and Fence Dogs and wondered what the fuss and extravagance was about.
> Got a bit confused and found myself looking at different things - Festool wotsits, P Parfit gizmos, bench dogs on normal benches and extra gadgets and so on, but with demo of practical use of these things a bit elusive.
> 
> I found this vid vaguely comical - a touch of Star Trek, like some sort of Swat team beamed in to deal with a woodwork emergency, but with a rickety paste table and stuff in over designed boxes - I'd get the props dept to have another look at them!
> ...



Great! Now all I need is an empty aircraft hangar!


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## Doug71 (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I found this vid vaguely comical - a touch of Star Trek, like some sort of Swat team beamed in to deal with a woodwork emergency, but with a rickety paste table and stuff in over designed boxes - I'd get the props dept to have another look at them!




That's Timothy Wilmot, very talented chap, Festool used that design of his to create their MW 1000 workbench.






Festool Mobile workshop MW 1000 online







www.festool.co.uk


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## Distinterior (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob,
Just to repeat what I said back in my post 36....

"The general consensus of this thread is that the MFT system is useful, accurate, repetitive and adaptable.
Just because you dont see that, doesn't make it pointless or extravagant....."


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## Doug71 (2 Dec 2021)

My workbench is three MFT style tops joined together, I wouldn't be without it.

If you are using it as a cutting table it's mainly for sheet goods but it also gives you unlimited work holding options which works well with solid wood when routing, sanding etc. Great for squaring frames up too.

Back in the day I used to be nailing bits of wood to the bench for stops etc, not had to do that since making my MFT.

It has really improved my work flow.


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Jacob,
> Just to repeat what I said back in my post 36....
> 
> "The general consensus of this thread is that the MFT system is useful, accurate, repetitive and adaptable.
> Just because you dont see that, doesn't make it pointless or extravagant....."


Some of the add-ons are ludicrously extreme in my opinion: Aluminium Dog Holder - MK2 Fence Edition


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## Distinterior (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Some of the add-ons are ludicrously extreme in my opinion: Aluminium Dog Holder - MK2 Fence Edition



If someone decides to buy an aluminium rack to store their dogs in, that's up to them, it's their money...!
But it has no bearing on the usefulness of the MFT & dog system.

I have this set and it gets used on nearly all my projects in one way or another....I certainly dont think of it as an extravagance, even when you look at how much they charge for it.


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## stuart little (2 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> I divided my workshop into two areas. The original 5x4.5 meter area has all of the large chip producing equipment that connects to the fixed dust collection system, such as the table saw, bandsaw, router table, and miter saw. The newer 5x4.5 meter area has my woodworking bench, MFT-style workbench, and all of my Festool equipment that connect to the portable dust collection system.
> 
> I use everything on some projects and would never consider eliminating one in favor of another. I could live without the Minimax SC2 Classic sliding saw now, but before I built the MFT-style workbench, it was my primary saw for lumber and sheet goods. I would have loved a combination slider like Jacob has, but it would never fit down the stairs into my basement. I had to disassemble the SC2C, and it barely fit around the corners.
> 
> ...


What's the machine with the red 'air scoop'?


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## stuart little (2 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> If someone decides to buy an aluminium rack to store their dogs in, that's up to them, it's their money...!
> But it has no bearing on the usefulness of the MFT & dog system.
> 
> I have this set and it gets used on nearly all my projects in one way or another....
> View attachment 123115


Should that be 'kennel' to store dogs in?


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## Peter Sefton (2 Dec 2021)

I don't currently have an MFT as I am lucky enough space for my panel saw, but if I downsized or worked on site doing panel work I am sure the MFT, tracksaw and bench dog system would get lots of use and soon pay for it's self.

Cheers

Peter


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## Just4Fun (2 Dec 2021)

As a hand tool woodworker who doesn't own a tracksaw or circular saw and never uses sheet goods it seems I would gain little from an MFT but I am intrigued about one possible use. Would it help with clamping things for glue-ups?


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## Tazmat43 (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Still trying to find a demo of somebody doing something useful on one of these very expensive tables with holes in things.
> Total failure so far.
> Is it just about buying attractive gadgets?
> What can they do which can't be done on a normal bench, or even a B&D workmate (£44 B&Q) and a lot easier too?
> ...



I'd just buy the Parf Guide System from Axminster Tools £200 for it and you can build as many tops as you like and put Dog holes in legs etc with it, although I have found his pricing system questionable, comes out with a Parf reamer and says he doesn't want it to cost the earth, he wanted it to be under £10, I think it was £7 something on release, and he did a video on YT for it 3 or so weeks later he'd pulled the video, completely and it was then about £14. 
I lost all respect for the man with that trick tbh and I brought the ruddy System last year but still haven't used it yet, but the results are undeniable, just won't buy anything else of his now, having done a video on his site waxing lyrical about pricing it for the ordinary Woodworker, then doubling the price, just speaks volumes to me to be honest, but it will say you a grand and you can use it as many times as you like, and you can buy other add on's for repeatable cuts etc and spacing cuts etc. Hope this helps  it's all amazing stuff, just doing that with the pricing that turned me right off buying anything else of that, I just call it as I see it, even my other half actually paid attention to me when I showed it to her at the time, which never happens when talking Woodworking lol, so I must morally be in the right haha, as she was going to buy me one with it being so cheap and I showed her the original vid on the day he released it lol, but as I said it is a brilliant system and you can reuse it time and time again when you're looking at £150 to £200 quid for 1 pre drilled 1200x600 top I think size wise, so the second thing you ever use it for and it's already paid for itself haha again hope the idea helps


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## Lonsdale73 (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Thanks for that. Says it all really. Not for me. Some expensive kit there!


I think we all knew that from your initial post.


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2021)

Lonsdale73 said:


> I think we all knew that from your initial post.


I thought there might be more to it. I sometimes use the same/similar system but just drilling holes as and when needed; marked out with a tape measure - you don't need a special ruler. 
I don't see the point of pre-drilling though I recognise it could suit some operators. 
You don't need special things to drop in the holes either - a bit of dowel will do.
Can't see the need for the rickety paste table either.
Nor the expensive clamps - I often use "gravity clamps"; basically heavy weights - one is a trad 5kg cast iron with a loop handle, others are tins with lead melted in 3 to 4 kg, and other odds and sods - a 12" length of railway line is good, and doubles as a mini anvil.


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## Distinterior (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I don't see the point of pre-drilling though I recognise it could suit some operators.
> You don't need special things to drop in the holes either - a bit of dowel will do.
> Can't see the need for the rickety paste table either.
> Nor the expensive clamps - I often use "gravity clamps"; basically heavy weights - one is a trad 5kg cast iron with a loop handle, others are tins with lead melted in 3 to 4 kg, and other odds and sods - a 12" length of railway line is good, and doubles as a mini anvil.



......All good and useful ideas Jacob and would appear to be quite innovative back in 1921, ....but this is 2021 and times & technology have moved on.

It is clear that you think the system isn't for you and of course, that's fine.

But, the majority of the other posters on this thread of yours, happen to think it is good and fits in with the type of work and projects that some of us make.


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## Sporky McGuffin (2 Dec 2021)

Tazmat43 said:


> I lost all respect for the man with that trick tbh and I brought the ruddy System last year but still haven't used it yet, but the results are undeniable, just won't buy anything else of his now, having done a video on his site waxing lyrical about pricing it for the ordinary Woodworker, then doubling the price, just speaks volumes to me to be honest,



That seems a little harsh - manufacturing and metal costs could well have increased by that much (last 6 months in particular have been ridiculous).


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## MikeK (2 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> What's the machine with the red 'air scoop'?



It is a partially disassembled Holzmann HOB260NL Planer/Thicknesser. The HOB260NL appears to be similar to the Axminster AC250PT and the Bernardo ADH 250P machines and I would not be surprised if they are built at the same factory.

This is the only shop tool I regret buying. It is a poor design, crudely made, difficult to align, and the planer tables do not remain coplanar very long. In my opinion, the HOB260NL would be better suited as a boat anchor than a P/T.


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## Spectric (2 Dec 2021)

It is also very very similar to the Record PT107, the drive train with the belt from the motor, chain for the rollers and clutch lever next to your E stop is too much of a coincidence, must come out of the same factory. Agree that it is somewhat crude and has alignment issues that seem to laugh at your attempts to correct, but fitting the Esta blade system does at least give you three aligned blades and so you only have to fight the tables. ESTA Knife System .

Not sure how long it would last as a boat anchor, maybe better in freshwater rather than the sea so it corrodes slower.


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## Droogs (2 Dec 2021)

From the few German woodies I know the reputation of Holzmannn is that they are the FRG's version of Fox and Charnwood


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## Jameshow (2 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> That's Timothy Wilmot, very talented chap, Festool used that design of his to create their MW 1000 workbench.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow that's one expensive shopping trolley!!


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## Recky33 (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob, consider it as a 700mm chop saw with clamping options and an exact cut line


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## MikeK (2 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is also very very similar to the Record PT107, the drive train with the belt from the motor, chain for the rollers and clutch lever next to your E stop is too much of a coincidence, must come out of the same factory. Agree that it is somewhat crude and has alignment issues that seem to laugh at your attempts to correct, but fitting the Esta blade system does at least give you three aligned blades and so you only have to fight the tables. ESTA Knife System .
> 
> Not sure how long it would last as a boat anchor, maybe better in freshwater rather than the sea so it corrodes slower.



If I can find a solution to the table alignment, I'll invest in the ESTA system. As it is now, the knives are the least of the problems with this machine.



Droogs said:


> From the few German woodies I know the reputation of Holzmannn is that they are the FRG's version of Fox and Charnwood



The Charnwood W583 appears to be the twin of the HOB260NL.


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## Droogs (2 Dec 2021)

Wht do companies keep rebadging and churning out these badly designed and flawed machines. If they listened to the feedback about all the problems and corrected them (and it wouldn't cost much) they would have people lining up to buy their stuff


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Wow that's one expensive shopping trolley!!


New technology - it'll do as a paste table too!


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## DBT85 (2 Dec 2021)

Droogs said:


> Wht do companies keep rebadging and churning out these badly designed and flawed machines. If they listened to the feedback about all the problems and corrected them (and it wouldn't cost much) they would have people lining up to buy their stuff


The problem is that they are all trying to compete with everyone else selling the same rebadged churned out rubbish at the same price point. Nobody wants to charge 5-10% more to make improvements as they will be worried people won't pay the extra. In addition, if you're the only one asking for those changes on the production line, its going to cost more than just 5 or 10%. People, largely, don't want to pay more. Look at how many people are fine with and Indesit washing machine rather than a Miele one that is often at least double the price. They don't care that its got a cast iron counterweight or a stainless steel drum and a myriad other improvements, they just want to get a new machine and pay as little as possible.


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> If I can find a solution to the table alignment, ....


Table alignment on my Minimax Combi was down to fine shims in appropriate places - in other words carefully set up before sale. I guess they'd have lasers etc to say what size shim in which places, otherwise it'd have to be a very tedious trial and error job, lifting and replacing heavy bits of metal several times.


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## Lonsdale73 (2 Dec 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> As a hand tool woodworker who doesn't own a tracksaw or circular saw and never uses sheet goods it seems I would gain little from an MFT but I am intrigued about one possible use. Would it help with clamping things for glue-ups?



Yes


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## WoodYewToo (2 Dec 2021)

DBT85 said:


> The problem is that they are all trying to compete with everyone else selling the same rebadged churned out rubbish at the same price point. Nobody wants to charge 5-10% more to make improvements as they will be worried people won't pay the extra. In addition, if you're the only one asking for those changes on the production line, its going to cost more than just 5 or 10%. People, largely, don't want to pay more. Look at how many people are fine with and Indesit washing machine rather than a Miele one that is often at least double the price. They don't care that its got a cast iron counterweight or a stainless steel drum and a myriad other improvements, *they just want to get a new machine and pay as little as possible.*



For many people, it's easier to see the immediate saving (of buying cheap)... than the long-term saving of buying 'wise'. 
(That said, if one hasn't got sufficient cash/credit to buy a decent machine... that can be an insurmountable issue).

Our Miele washing machine is nearly 23 years old - and it's had a hard working life. 
In all those years, I've replaced one drive belt and two shock absorbers... total cost of parts: £50.


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## shed9 (2 Dec 2021)

Been watching this with some interest, even the FOG members will argue against them, albeit in smaller numbers. I've had three MFT/3's in the past 7-8 years, kept two and still regret selling the first. They are expensive comparative to other off-the-shelf options and DIY equivalents but once you use them and find that niche that works for you it will all make sense. Yes there are more cost efficient solutions but equally there are significantly more expensive options as well, it's a tool that fits a certain user and use. As others have said, you get what you pay for.


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## Spectric (2 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> If I can find a solution to the table alignment,


I have some issues with my PT107 that needs to be addressed, something must move or change once the tables have been lifted for thicknesser mode so be interesting to see how you solve your problems. You have heavy pivots on one side and then the tables sit on 6mm bolts the other, just seems to small and the locking levers exert a reasonable force to hold them down, do you notice much of a change between unlocked and locked.


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## MikeK (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Table alignment on my Minimax Combi was down to fine shims in appropriate places - in other words carefully set up before sale. I guess they'd have lasers etc to say what size shim in which places, otherwise it'd have to be a very tedious trial and error job, lifting and replacing heavy bits of metal several times.



I don't have any problem aligning the slider table on my Minimax SC2C. I imagine the combo version is tedious, but can be done with success. I aligned my slider table twice since it was commissioned because I moved it around in my shop. The first time, it took me about eight hours to adjust the sliding table for the correct toe out and height above the fixed table as well as the toe out for the rip fence. The second time, I removed the slider to check the bearing surfaces because I thought there was a problem (there wasn't a problem), and had it back and ready for use in four hours. Since adding the parallel positioner on the sliding table, I haven't used the rip fence.

I learned to hover, autorotate, and was ready to solo in a Robinson R44 helicopter in less time than I've spent fiddling with just the thicknesser table on the HOB260NL. After three days, it still isn't usable and I haven't even started on the planer tables. It is such a poor design with too much movement as the thicknesser table height is changed. I lowered the table to 17cm and was going to adjust the pedestal grub screws to make the table parallel with the cutter block, but the grub screws were missing. A quick trip to the hardware store for four M4 grub screws. Then I raised the table to 15cm and the right side is lower than the left side by 0.008-inch. At 10cm, the right side is lower than the left by 0.020-inch. 

As if this could not be worse, all of these measurements were taken without using the pedestal lock. When I lock the pedestal at the 10cm height, the left side drops 0.007-inch and the right side changes from 0.020 to 0.006-inch. At the 17cm height, the left side drops 0.006-inch and the right side raises by 0.007-inch. After disassembling the pedestal and lift mechanism, I discovered one of the problems with the lock and was able to make a slight improvement, but the table angle still changes when locked. I can make a new friction lock that works on the height adjustment shaft and won't touch the pedestal, but since the pedestal level is inconsistent at different heights, this would be a waste of time.

I think I am done with this machine and will look for a Hammer A3-31or SCM FS30. I would consider the DeWalt DW735, but it is not available in 230V 50Hz except in Australia and Russia.


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## MikeK (2 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> I have some issues with my PT107 that needs to be addressed, something must move or change once the tables have been lifted for thicknesser mode so be interesting to see how you solve your problems. You have heavy pivots on one side and then the tables sit on 6mm bolts the other, just seems to small and the locking levers exert a reasonable force to hold them down, do you notice much of a change between unlocked and locked.



Yes, there is a lot of change when the pedestal is locked. It is a horrible design, and I'll start another thread later tonight that documents my descent into the Tenth Circle of Hell created specifically for the designers of this family of P/T.


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## Spectric (2 Dec 2021)

That will be interesting, looks like the holzmann is a cost reduced version based on the Axi / Record brands, the sellers say this

Holzmann is *a leading manufacturer of high-quality machinery*. Though they have been around for centuries, they remain global players in the field of machinery and workshop equipment today. 

whilst the owners say


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## MikeK (2 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> That will be interesting, looks like the holzmann is a cost reduced version based on the Axi / Record brands, the sellers say this
> 
> Holzmann is *a leading manufacturer of high-quality machinery*. Though they have been around for centuries, they remain global players in the field of machinery and workshop equipment today.
> 
> whilst the owners say



Holzmann _might_ have been a manufacturer of high quality machinery at one time, but I don't think this is true now. I saw Andrea'a video last year, and his P/T has some of the same faults mine has. I think the only thing on these machines that came from Austria might be the label.

Two years ago I contacted Holzmann to ask about changing the motor from single-phase to three-phase. The technician's recommendation was to sell my machine and buy a new machine that has the three-phase motor because they did not stock any parts and had to order everything from the factory in China. Even something as simple as replacement knives had to be ordered from China. However, he was helpful and the next day sent me an interior photo of a three-phase model so I could see the difference between the two models. He also found a spare three-phase motor that would fit. He initially told me it would cost €90 plus shipping, but the sales team wanted €450 for it and I would still have to buy a contactor and start/stop switch. I thanked him, but passed on the offer since I paid €900 for the machine and didn't want to toss that much money down that pit.


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## Spectric (2 Dec 2021)

I think Scheppach have also gone down the same plug hole, and looks like Holzmann are now nothing more than a reseller of asian produce but as the customer they should be maintaining at least a spares stock unless they consider their products as disposable.


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## Oakay (2 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Does the track saw stop chipping splintering the board / wood. Never used one so don't know??
> 
> Cheers James


Shallow cut first so yes


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## paulrbarnard (2 Dec 2021)

WoodYewToo said:


> For many people, it's easier to see the immediate saving (of buying cheap)... than the long-term saving of buying 'wise'.
> (That said, if one hasn't got sufficient cash/credit to buy a decent machine... that can be an insurmountable issue).
> 
> Our Miele washing machine is nearly 23 years old - and it's had a hard working life.
> In all those years, I've replaced one drive belt and two shock absorbers... total cost of parts: £50.


Wow you bought a lemon! Ours is about the same age and has never missed a beat.


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## Hornbeam (2 Dec 2021)

keithy1959 said:


> A MFT is not a replacement for a work bench, but rather a versatile assembly table
> There are better ways to support work for hand sawing and planing. MFTs work better with power tools


This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,


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## PerryGunn (2 Dec 2021)

Hornbeam said:


> This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,


I had a similar dilemma when I wanted an MFT so I built a really solid one that folded up against the wall when I didn't need it 








Finally built a fold-down MFT


As I've a relatively small workshop - the main section is approx. 2.5m by 3.5m - space has always been at a premium and I've had to ensure that everything is stored neatly and put back in place at the end of a session or it would quickly turn into chaos. In my latest effort to make best use of...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2021)

Hornbeam said:


> This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,


Best assembly table I saw was basically a low table with the top made of 2x2" hardwood with 2" gaps. It was framed up stiff enough to stay dead flat, the slats were varnished and wax polished to easily clean glue off even after it had set, the gaps meant you could pop in g clamps or sash clamps anywhere you wanted, either to hold down the workpiece or to hold laths etc for alignment. It was only for assembly - not an actual woodworking bench.


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## MikeK (2 Dec 2021)

Hornbeam said:


> This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,



The initial goal with my project was to build an assembly and work table that I can move around as required, is large enough for the upcoming projects I know about, is sturdy enough to hold my projects during fabrication and glue up, and had storage for what I thought would be commonly used tools. Adding the MFT-style feature with the 20mm holes came later while I was still in the concept phase. Up until then, I was content with using my table saw for all lumber and sheet good cuts, with full sheet ripping in the garage using the track saw. I can maneuver a full sheet (2500 x 1250mm) of 19mm plywood or MDF into the basement, but could not rip a full sheet on my table saw. I can easily crosscut full sheets, but the five meter wall to wall distance along the blade's path will not allow a full sheet to start before the blade or end after the blade. Until I can buy a sliding saw that uses a LASER instead of a circular blade, the longest rip cut I can make on the table saw is 2350mm without the scoring blade or 2240mm with the scoring blade.

I'm using the table saw less and using the new table for almost all cutting. I use the table saw when cutting lumber, but use the new table and track saw for nearly everything else. I can also rip full sheets on the new table with my track saw and produce splinter-free cuts on both sides of the blade. In my experience, the guide rail splinter guard eliminates splinters and tear out on the piece under the rail, and the TS55 and TS75 have splinter guards that slide down on the outer side of the blade to keep the other edge splinter free.

The inspiration for my work table came from a member on the Festool Owners Group who built a MFT-style work table using a full 8x4 foot sheet of 18mm MDF as the work surface and extruded aluminum for the frame. This was too big for my basement, but the 2000mm x 1000mm size proved to be perfect for me. The hole pattern in the top allows me to place dogs anywhere, and the accuracy of the hole placement ensures square cuts. I didn't realize this until later, but the two coats of hard wax oil on the work surface allows glue spills to pop off when they are dry without leaving any marks on the surface.

The horizontal and vertical channels in the extrusion accommodate the Festool clamps, T-track nuts, and M8 carriage bolts. The heads of the bolts fit nicely in the slot and the square shank on the bolt fits in the 8mm channel. My table has over 25 meters of available T-track on its four sides.


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## Hornbeam (2 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Best assembly table I saw was basically a low table with the top made of 2x2" hardwood with 2" gaps. It was framed up stiff enough to stay dead flat, the slats were varnished and wax polished to easily clean glue off even after it had set, the gaps meant you could pop in g clamps or sash clamps anywhere you wanted, either to hold down the workpiece or to hold laths etc for alignment. It was only for assembly - not an actual woodworking bench.


Thankyou Jacob. I think I have very clearly got your views. What I am trying to get is some wider views so that I can make the best of both worlds


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## TomGW (3 Dec 2021)

There have been various references to the sacrificial nature of the MFT top with suggestions of routing out a strip along the cut line etc. My solution was to cover the entire top with a piece of 6mm MDF with a grid of holes sufficiently large to not foul the dogs. This way the MFT top remains intact. Easy to drill the holes as they are large enough to avoid the need for precision. A hand full of screws hold it in place.


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## Chip shop (3 Dec 2021)

I have an MFT and wouldn't be without it. For building cabs in a small workshop or on site they're brill.


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## MikeK (3 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> Yes, there is a lot of change when the pedestal is locked. It is a horrible design, and I'll start another thread later tonight that documents my descent into the Tenth Circle of Hell created specifically for the designers of this family of P/T.



I started a new thread about my P/T:









Holzmann HOB260NL P/T Issues


This will be the first in a series of posts where I attempt to document the problems with my Holzmann HOB260NL Planer/Thicknesser (Jointer/Planer on the other side of the Atlantic), as well as any solutions or improvements. Of all the shop equipment or tools that I have purchased in the last 50...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## ian33a (3 Dec 2021)

Tazmat43 said:


> I'd just buy the Parf Guide System from Axminster Tools £200 for it and you can build as many tops as you like and put Dog holes in legs etc with it, although I have found his pricing system questionable, comes out with a Parf reamer and says he doesn't want it to cost the earth, he wanted it to be under £10, I think it was £7 something on release, and he did a video on YT for it 3 or so weeks later he'd pulled the video, completely and it was then about £14.
> I lost all respect for the man with that trick tbh and I brought the ruddy System last year but still haven't used it yet, but the results are undeniable, just won't buy anything else of his now, having done a video on his site waxing lyrical about pricing it for the ordinary Woodworker, then doubling the price, just speaks volumes to me to be honest,



Having spent time with Peter and him explaining the system I'd like to offer my input:

Peter is the inventor of the system and the associated guides but he isn't the manufacturer. For that he works with Axminster Tools and they handle all of that as well as the pricing. Peter takes a royalty for units sold. 

In my humble opinion Peter is a confident inventor who is happy to promote as well as defend the product. He is also a very genuine person and is just as nice in real life as he is in the videos that he produces. 

As a user of the Parf II guide system I can honestly say that the system is very good. None of the messing around with aluminium foil and other such nonsense and very decent MFT inserts can be built very quickly provided the instructions are properly followed.

These two inserts were drilled in a couple of hours and the accuracy across the whole table with a five point cut was far better than I ever expected it to be. 







I haven't owned the Festool MFT and decided against buying one as all of my work is done at home and the Festool unit wasn't sturdy enough for what I wanted. I think I paid about £100 for the black Valchromat and have enough capacity to make three inserts from it. 

While the Parf II is expensive it just works so well and, having invested in it, you can build whatever sized and shaped inserts you wish as often as you wish and any decent quality MDF can be used. With a suitable clamp system you can even make something and clamp it to a woodworking vice and have it on top of an existing bench. 

As for the dogs - you don't have to spend hundreds at Benchdogs or Axminster, you can buy cheap plastic dogs for little more than the cost of a beer and then adapt them as you wish, should you prefer.

Perhaps a purist and very capable woodworker may see the system as inferior. For hobbyist users or those who value an easy clamp accurate cutting system I think it offers great benefits.


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## ian33a (3 Dec 2021)

TomGW said:


> There have been various references to the sacrificial nature of the MFT top with suggestions of routing out a strip along the cut line etc. My solution was to cover the entire top with a piece of 6mm MDF with a grid of holes sufficiently large to not foul the dogs. This way the MFT top remains intact. Easy to drill the holes as they are large enough to avoid the need for precision. A hand full of screws hold it in place.



Totally agree Tom - that's how I use mine too.


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## martin.pearson (3 Dec 2021)

Hornbeam said:


> This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,



What would you require from an assembly table? Sorry but being fairly new to this I am not really sure. I don't have a traditional bench but then I don't do a lot with hand tools & was very limited on space so the MFT style top that I could put away after use seemed like the best way for me, obviously doesn't suit everyone lol. I built it when I purchased a track saw but it gets used whenever I need a flat surface to work on. I probably use it for some of the things that you would do on your traditional bench. It doesn't have a vice but I don't use one on a regular basis & if I do need one then I have one on another small makeshift bench.


Just to add that I agree with what ian33a has said, I haven't used the parf guide system myself but know a couple of people who have one & they think it was a great investment. Having a CNC there was no need for me to invest in it. I've only met Peter once but he seemed to be a genuine guy, I was under the impression that he came up with the ideas but the manufacture, pricing & selling was done by Axminster


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## Adam W. (3 Dec 2021)

ian33a said:


> Having spent time with Peter and him explaining the system I'd like to offer my input:
> 
> Peter is the inventor of the system and the associated guides but he isn't the manufacturer. For that he works with Axminster Tools and they handle all of that as well as the pricing. Peter takes a royalty for units sold.
> 
> ...



That looks nicely built.


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## pgrbff (3 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> A table saw blade cuts down into the material and tends to chip out the underside. If the saw has a scribing blade, it pre cuts into the underside by a couple of mm preventing the chip out before the material passes through the main blade.
> 
> A tracksaw cuts up from the underside and the track has a sacrificial strip on it that prevents chip out on the upper surface.
> Used in conjunction with a sacrificial sheet below, such as an MFT top, it acts as a zero clearance insert and you get a clean cut on both faces of the board.


But the table below needs to be in good condition for that to work. For a moment there I thought the TS 55 had a scribing blade.


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## Doug71 (3 Dec 2021)

pgrbff said:


> But the table below needs to be in good condition for that to work. For a moment there I thought the TS 55 had a scribing blade.



You still get a chip free cut on the underside without a sacrificial sheet below because the teeth are cutting upwards in to the material, it's like a jigsaw, clean cut underneath breakout on the top.

If there was any chipping it would be on the top face where the teeth exit the cut but the plastic zero clearance strip on the track stops this.

People often put a board under because it improves dust extraction.


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> You still get a chip free cut on the underside without a sacrificial sheet below because the teeth are cutting upwards in to the material, it's like a jigsaw, clean cut underneath breakout on the top.
> 
> If there was any chipping it would be on the top face where the teeth exit the cut but the plastic zero clearance strip on the track stops this.
> 
> People often put a board under because it improves dust extraction.


The DIY sawboard is good for top side clean cuts as it is effectively a zero clearance fence Sawboard - DIYWiki
They are actually very good - much better than you might expect.


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> If there was any chipping it would be on the top face where the teeth exit the cut but the plastic zero clearance strip on the track stops this.



On my Makita there's a thumb-operated button that restricts the first cut to 3mm or so so that the top doesn't chip either. It means two runs along the track but the edges are nice top and bottom.


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## Doug71 (3 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> On my Makita there's a thumb-operated button that restricts the first cut to 3mm or so so that the top doesn't chip either. It means two runs along the track but the edges are nice top and bottom.



The little trick which some people do is set the TS55 to 2 or 3mm and run the saw backwards along the rail first, it acts like a scribing blade cutting down in to the face, gives you a really clean cut on both edges then.


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> The DIY sawboard is good for top side clean cuts as it is effectively a zero clearance fence Sawboard - DIYWiki
> They are actually very good - much better than you might expect.


Useful thread - gone full circle for me! If I felt the need for an assembly table and a sheet cutting facility I think I'd go for a trad assembly table as per earlier post, and a sawboard (or track saw if I had one). Save a fortune, no extra gear required at all, except some bits of wood. And very versatile.








MFT - wossit all about?


I have some issues with my PT107 that needs to be addressed, something must move or change once the tables have been lifted for thicknesser mode so be interesting to see how you solve your problems. You have heavy pivots on one side and then the tables sit on 6mm bolts the other, just seems...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## Hornbeam (3 Dec 2021)

martin.pearson said:


> What would you require from an assembly table? Sorry but being fairly new to this I am not really sure.


At present of my glue up on the bench which isnt ideal as it ties my bench up and can be messy, plus my bench is against the all so cant get all round.
What I want is something big enough for typical cabinets etc to be glued up on, perfectly flat, easy clean surface An ability to clamp down on to it, Something a bit lighter and more moveable than my current bench. So thinking of a torsion box type structure, with a laminate or similar finish on one face and if I see the benefits an mft type face on the other. While I would never purchase the festool assembly in the video it does show some good design features.
On the question of traditional benches I cannot understand how anybody can handsaw or plane without a decent bench and vice


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## Alpha-Dave (3 Dec 2021)

Hornbeam said:


> On the question of traditional benches I cannot understand how anybody can handsaw or plane without a decent bench and vice


Easy with an electric planer.


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## baldkev (3 Dec 2021)

127 posts and counting! 

Im 'on the fence '
I dont use a tracksaw. Yet. When everyone else was out spending 600 quid on them when they 'arrived', i got the offcut of a 9mm sheet of ply and glued and screwed a thin batten to it, using a 6 foot level to make sure it was dead straight. I then ran the saw against the batten fence and had a diy track. I used it for a few days and then stopped.

Ive got 2 makita 18v circ saws ( in my defence, the new 1 was '2nd hand' but basically new and cost 65 quid with a battery ), 2 table saws and a radial arm saw, so no real shortage of options. The workshop tablesaw is a 12" multico and the site tablesaw is a dw745. I could really sell the multico and build the dw into a solid bench and keep moving it around, but im lazy. I sometimes cut down 3" oak, so tracksaw isnt the right tool.

I could replace the r.a.s with a tracksaw and that swish drop down track peter millard has 

I could get a tracksaw for site use and leave the dw in the workshop. Makitas 18v is appealing. If i did, i would get an mft top for site use and it would probably pay for itself, although more kit to carry around from job to job.

I think im an inbetweener. Just older with no hair


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## baldkev (3 Dec 2021)

I should just explain, when they came out and the others were all buying new kit, we were all subcontracting to a bigger company, so essentially they were buying kit at their expense, to make the job quicker, which only really benefitted the contractor....


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> ....i got the offcut of a 9mm sheet of ply and glued and screwed a thin batten to it, using a 6 foot level to make sure it was dead straight. I then ran the saw against the batten fence and had a diy track......


a.k.a.'Sawboard'. An old and very useful idea Sawboard - DIYWiki I've often used one.


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## baldkev (3 Dec 2021)

I can see how a tracksaw is good though jacob..... personally i keep my blades very good and use the right amount of teeth for the job, which makes my circ saw cut very well. But it doesnt plunge.... and a tracksaw is more accurate/ quick to set the depth. The idea of just laying the track edge up to the cut marks and get on with it is quicker than clamping on a straight edge each time. So for site use in the long run i guess its worth it

And largely if you dont buy into the tracksaw setup, mft probably isnt worth looking at.


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## johnnyb (3 Dec 2021)

I'm loath to be involved in this tbh. but if you want square cabinets and wardrobes and don't posess an aligned 2600 stroke panel saw this is your best chance. the other stuff I can take or leave I've just got 3 deep dogs and a track.and an 8ft by 4ft. table. 
more tech goes into a large sliding table panelsaw than ever has gone into tracks and dogs and tables. Peter has applied a simple principle in a very low tech practical way.


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## Doug71 (3 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> I can see how a tracksaw is good though jacob..... personally i keep my blades very good and use the right amount of teeth for the job, which makes my circ saw cut very well. But it doesnt plunge.... and a tracksaw is more accurate/ quick to set the depth. The idea of just laying the track edge up to the cut marks and get on with it is quicker than clamping on a straight edge each time. So for site use in the long run i guess its worth it



Ask Santa to bring you one for Christmas, you will wonder how you ever managed without it


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## baldkev (3 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> Ask Santa to bring you one for Christmas, you will wonder how you ever managed without it


 Ive been a good boy this year but i dont think santa does makita power tools


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> Ive been a good boy this year but i dont think santa does makita power tools


Drop him a line and post it to the north pole. Thats what I do.


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## baldkev (3 Dec 2021)

have you been good though?


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> I can see how a tracksaw is good though jacob..... personally i keep my blades very good and use the right amount of teeth for the job, which makes my circ saw cut very well. But it doesnt plunge.... and a tracksaw is more accurate/ quick to set the depth. The idea of just laying the track edge up to the cut marks and get on with it is quicker than clamping on a straight edge each time. So for site use in the long run i guess its worth it
> 
> And largely if you dont buy into the tracksaw setup, mft probably isnt worth looking at.


Yes track saw a good idea. A bit pricey though. The sawboard is a good idea too - you put it up to the marks just the same but have to clamp it. Poor man's track saw. Or track saw for someone who just needs one occasionally.


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## MikeK (3 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes track saw a good idea. A bit pricey though. The sawboard is a good idea too - you put it up to the marks just the same but have to clamp it. Poor man's track saw. Or track saw for someone who just needs one occasionally.



For years, I did the same thing with a circular saw and homemade sawboard. If the accuracy of the cut wasn't important, then I struck a line with a chalk line and cut free hand. It works, but it is an outside tool, I have to clean the garage when I'm done (according to my wife), and I have to observe the German mandatory quiet times for my area (1200 - 1400 during the day every day, after 2200 - 0700 Monday through Thursday, 0000 - 0700 Friday and Saturday, and all day Sunday). The resulting cut is straight, as long as I pay attention to keeping the saw pressed firmly against the sawboard and don't let it wander. If I haven't used the saw in a while, I have to calculate the kerf distance from sawboard and remember which side is the offcut. However, there is always tear out on the edge unless I remember to make the shallow reverse cut first. 

The last circular saws I bought before buying the track saws were Bosch saws that were designed to work with the FSN tracks. Aside from the plume of dust and chips that went everywhere, these saws had the accuracy and ease of a track but the mess and noise limitations of the circular saws. I thought it would be a good idea to use the saw to cut a window in an interior wooden door instead of lifting the door off the hinge and make the cuts outside. I spent about 30 minutes sweeping and vacuuming the dust from that small project.

By contrast, the track saw is an inside tool, is nearly foolproof (and I know some ingenious fools who have used mine), not bound by any noise rules, the guide strip is the kerf line, and the cuts are always crisp and free from tear out.


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## Sporky McGuffin (4 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> By contrast, the track saw is an inside tool, is nearly foolproof (and I know some ingenious fools who have used mine), not bound by any noise rules, the guide strip is the kerf line, and the cuts are always crisp and free from tear out.



A tracksaw is very much a step up in every way compared to a normal circular saw and a straight bit of plank.


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> A tracksaw is very much a step up in every way compared to a normal circular saw and a straight bit of plank.


Well yes but a "sawboard" is much more than a straight bit of plank. Not obvious until you try one. Not quite as convenient as a track saw but very precise.


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## Distinterior (4 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> ...... Not obvious until you try one......





Does the irony of that statement not strike you in any way...?


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Does the irony of that statement not strike you in any way...?


No? Explain yourself.


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## Distinterior (4 Dec 2021)

Jacob,....If you genuinely dont see the irony then I'm afraid I cant explain it to you as I would just be wasting my time.


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Jacob,....If you genuinely dont see the irony then I'm afraid I cant explain it to you as I would just be wasting my time.


Perhaps you don't know what 'irony' means?
I wrote earlier: _"Yes track saw a good idea. A bit pricey though. The sawboard is a good idea too - you put it up to the marks just the same but have to clamp it. Poor man's track saw. Or track saw for someone who just needs one occasionally."_
Does that help?


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## Distinterior (4 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Perhaps you don't know what 'irony' means?



 Oh dear Jacob!

Perhaps you are correct,...perhaps not! 
Perhaps some of the other commenters on this thread can see the irony and they also perhaps dont know what it means...?

I think I've contributed enough to this thread of yours as I clearly feel no amount of experience or advice that you've been offered is going to enlighten you.


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## Sporky McGuffin (4 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Well yes but a "sawboard" is much more than a straight bit of plank.



Fair point - it's two straight bits of plank and some screws. Still not a patch on a tracksaw.


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> ..... I clearly feel no amount of experience or advice that you've been offered is going to enlighten you.


Not at all. You have all answered my question. Thanks for that.
Simple answer; MFT is for people who regularly cut sheet material and being predrilled saves a bit of time in aligning your track saw. Which I'd realised by post 10, if you can be bothered to scroll back. Is this really post 146? How time flies!
Somebody muttered about "endless possibilities" but nobody has expanded on that.
Not for woodwork more generally, and not clear that you'd need the vast array of expensive add-on gadgets being promoted - unless there really are hidden "endless possibilities" 

OK, as you were, carry on chaps!


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## Southdownswolf (4 Dec 2021)

In a previous job I made a sawboard for when we occasionally needed to make a crate to transport our larger systems. It was either myself or a colleague that built the crate, but I noticed that he sometimes had trouble keeping the circular saw running along the straight edge (combination of things, including going too quick and not paying enough attention).
After a while we stumped up for a cheap tracksaw... This was a revelation for him. Straight every time, perfectly lined up and so easy to set up.
The cost wasnt much more than the circular saw we had previously used, we should have got that to begin with.
I'm sure most people on here would take more care and attention than my colleague did, but it certainly showed how easy and accurate they are to use.


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## Jameshow (4 Dec 2021)

Do the short track lengths not give compound inaccuracies? 

Cheers James


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2021)

I still haven't quite got it.  
Another question; why not align the track saw with a large T square, then you wouldn't need any of the gubbins at all? 
You could make your own with size/angles to suit.


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## Adam W. (4 Dec 2021)

I think it's more of a personal preference Jacob, than an absolute necessity. 

Strokes for blokes and all that.


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## MikeK (4 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Do the short track lengths not give compound inaccuracies?
> 
> Cheers James



Not that I've noticed. The Bosch FSN rails simply butted up to each other and the wide connecting bar was snugged up. 

Festool doesn't recommend using this method because apparently it won't guarantee the ends of the rail are 90 degrees from the long edge. Instead, they recommend leaving a small gap between the guide rails and using a straight edge along the back of the rail before snugging up the two connector rails. I eventually got tired of doing this and bought the FS 3000/2 rail since I don't load my tools in a van and travel to a site.


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## Sporky McGuffin (4 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I still haven't quite got it.
> Another question; why not align the track saw with a large T square, then you wouldn't need any of the gubbins at all?
> You could make your own with size/angles to suit.



I don't think that'd be quite as accurate. It might not matter though.


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I don't think that'd be quite as accurate. It might not matter though.


You could make one up as per the Peter Parfit video - with his special rulers if you have them or with a tape otherwise. Would be just as accurate if you follow the same procedure.
Basically 3 laths in ratio 3:4:5 marked up and/or notched, pointed etc to lay it out.
Or just buy one, and a big set square while you are at it.


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## DBT85 (4 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> 1200 - 1400 during the day every day,


This is madness.



MikeK said:


> I eventually got tired of doing this and bought the FS 3000/2 rail since I don't load my tools in a van and travel to a site.


That's exactly why I just took the pain and bought the 3m rail too.


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## Flynnwood (4 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I still haven't quite got it.


The basic by Peter Millard (one of many produced on tracksaws)


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2021)

Flynnwood said:


> The basic by Peter Millard (one of many produced on tracksaws)



I've got the tracksaw idea OK it was never in doubt. Good idea! I haven't got one so instead I'd either do it carefully against a straight edge (e.g. length of MFC shelving) or rough cut and trim on the TS.
What I haven't got is the need for the dogs and all the kit, boards with holes in, bandoliers full of assorted dogs etc Bench Dogs, Woodworker bench fittings and Fence Dogs expensive clamps, £100 squares and similar as shown on other vids.
It's OK I'm not very interested anyway, I thought I might be missing something but I got the answer to my question.


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## Hornbeam (4 Dec 2021)

Jacob. Like you I have a bit of sceptisism and wanted to try and understand what this was all about. For years I have used an aluminium U channel and a standard hand held circular saw. I have made gauge blocks to set the channel the right distance from the line 2 for cutting and leaving the line and 2 for cutting on the other side of teh line/ Understanding the MFT table and guide dogs takes a bit of getting your hear round as even without a tracksaw the potential seems almost unlimited. Have a look at this video and hopefully will answer your questions. I am also sure with some thought you could home make almost everything for minimal cost


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## HamsterJam (4 Dec 2021)

Wow - been catching up on this thread as I have been considering an MFT style top for my workbench and there’s lot to absorb here. I have a sturdy work bench with a good thick top plus a track saw.
Have been considering a £40 MFT style top for…
1. Accurate 90 (and 45) degree cuts using dogs
2. Sacrificial top (don’t want to cut into my bench top.)
3. Low profile work holding for carving, routing, sanding, etc

One question though, if I place an MFT style top directly onto my bench will the blind holes be a problem? - I appreciate I won’t be able to put a clamp through the holes to act as a hold down clamp but will there be any other limitations? - at least the screws and drill bits won’t fall through


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## martin.pearson (5 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Wow - been catching up on this thread as I have been considering an MFT style top for my workbench and there’s lot to absorb here. I have a sturdy work bench with a good thick top plus a track saw.
> Have been considering a £40 MFT style top for…
> 1. Accurate 90 (and 45) degree cuts using dogs
> 2. Sacrificial top (don’t want to cut into my bench top.)
> ...



You won't be able to use clamps as you have said & you won't be able to lock the dogs in place from the underside of the table but I think that is about all, all the dogs that I have seen fit in the holes but don't poke out the bottom of the table so you should be good there.


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## martin.pearson (5 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I've got the tracksaw idea OK it was never in doubt. Good idea! I haven't got one so instead I'd either do it carefully against a straight edge (e.g. length of MFC shelving) or rough cut and trim on the TS.
> What I haven't got is the need for the dogs and all the kit, boards with holes in, bandoliers full of assorted dogs etc Bench Dogs, Woodworker bench fittings and Fence Dogs expensive clamps, £100 squares and similar as shown on other vids.
> It's OK I'm not very interested anyway, I thought I might be missing something but I got the answer to my question.



You are only missing something if you have a need for one & as you have determined you don't then you are not missing anything at all lol. Before I buy any new tools I ask myself if it will allow me to do something that I can't currently do, if it will save me time or it it will make the process easier for me. 
I buy hardwood slices from a local sawmill, I could get them to machine it for me but that's an additional cost plus I don't get all the off cuts & since I make a lot of small items including pens then those off cuts get used. I was cutting it with a straight edge & circular saw but found it could be a bit tricky sometimes clamping it correctly, the circular saw can be difficult to get started because it doesn't plunge cut & I personally found it a bit awkward when starting the cut as it was basically unsupported as I was starting. As a couple of other people have said you have to concentrate a bit to ensure the saw stays tight against the straight edge.
So a track saw ticked 2 of the boxes for me as it makes the process much quicker & it also makes it easier for me. I do this on a regular basis so have saved a lot of time. I didn't have the space for a decent table saw, unfortunately you need quite a bit of room to be able to use one & they are not easily packed away when not in use lol
I have an MFT style top which gets used for everything because I don't think a traditional work bench is something that would be a lot of use to me although I could be completely wrong about that lol. I don't do much with hand tools, because of an injury to my right shoulder using something like a hand plane or hand saw is not something that I can easily do, I also have a problem with my right leg which means that any operation that involves shifting my body weight from one side to the other is out of the question. I have a few bits for the MFT top, some I bought & some I made. The dogs to me are not that expensive, they are stainless steel & will last longer that I expect I will live, other bits that are sold don't fit in with the sort of things I do so I haven't bought them.


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2021)

martin.pearson said:


> .... I don't do much with hand tools, because of an injury to my right shoulder using something like a hand plane or hand saw is not something that I can easily do, I also have a problem with my right leg which means that any operation that involves shifting my body weight from one side to the other is out of the question. ...


OK if you have special needs - I have too, deaf, eyesight going, can't pick things up from the floor (arthritis) , so I sympathise! If this kit helps then of course it's a good idea.
But in general:
I never queried the usefulness of a track saw and the plunge cut is a smart bit of design.
But I don't see the point of all the other gubbins. Parfman even demonstrates (8.30 minutes in) how easy it is to use a straight edge with a couple of clamps, without even the track. He doesn't seem to show how you align the second cut (I might have missed it) which presumably you do in the old fashioned way with a tape measure and pencil marks.
Anyway it's clear that it's only about cutting sheet and not some sort of universal woodwork system - which is implied by all the promos and expensive add on gadgets - and unconvincingly demonstrated on some of the vids. So I got the answer to my original question!


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## porker (5 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> One question though, if I place an MFT style top directly onto my bench will the blind holes be a problem? - I appreciate I won’t be able to put a clamp through the holes to act as a hold down clamp but will there be any other limitations? - at least the screws and drill bits won’t fall through


One way to get around this is to lift the top off the bench with short feet. David Stanton on YouTube does this with his system. You just need to raise it enough to give clearance for the clamps.


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## HamsterJam (5 Dec 2021)

porker said:


> One way to get around this is to lift the top off the bench with short feet. David Stanton on YouTube does this with his system. You just need to raise it enough to give clearance for the clamps.


Thanks , I had considered whether a gap between the MFT style top and the bench could work. Just worried the height increase might be awkward - I find the bench an ideal height for me as it is. It will also need some type of structure or frame under it for support.


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## Hornbeam (5 Dec 2021)

I think there is more to it than cutting sheet goods. It can also be used as a radial arm type saw set up, with pre sets at [email protected] and 45'. I think you could just proove the concept with a piece of MDF, sove large dowels and some carefully positioned holes. Then use a standard circular and a batten


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2021)

One question left! How do you cut the second parallel line, after having achieved the first perpendicular cut? Do you measure/mark with a pencil or is there an MFT way?


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## Doug B (5 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> One question left! How do you cut the second parallel line, after having achieved the first perpendicular cut? Do you measure/mark with a pencil or is there an MFT way?


More add ons is what you need Jacob, parallel track guides or a fence on your MFT table with a fence stops or just mark it with a pencil.


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## MikeK (5 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> One question left! How do you cut the second parallel line, after having achieved the first perpendicular cut? Do you measure/mark with a pencil or is there an MFT way?



Depends...if I am making a several identical pieces, I'll use the parallel guides on the rail or the flip stop on the fence. If I'm making one piece, I measure and mark with a pencil.


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## Recky33 (5 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> One question left! How do you cut the second parallel line, after having achieved the first perpendicular cut? Do you measure/mark with a pencil or is there an MFT way?


I take it that even after 5 days you still have not bothered to have a look at Mr Millards site ?


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2021)

Recky33 said:


> I take it that even after 5 days you still have not bothered to have a look at Mr Millards site ?


Yes I have. He does a very neat job, woodwork and youtube.
Which one would you particularly recommend?
n.b. If he's promoting £100 set squares or £40 dog holders I'm not interested, but I don't suppose he is.


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## stuart little (6 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Thanks , I had considered whether a gap between the MFT style top and the bench could work. Just worried the height increase might be awkward - I find the bench an ideal height for me as it is. It will also need some type of structure or frame under it for support.


Stand on a pallet!


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## HamsterJam (6 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> Stand on a pallet!



Oooh no - that would be work at height and surely I’d need a harness and fall-arrest?


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Thanks , I had considered whether a gap between the MFT style top and the bench could work. Just worried the height increase might be awkward - I find the bench an ideal height for me as it is. It will also need some type of structure or frame under it for support.


Have you tried New Products ? If there's a need they'll come up with something. Probably not cheap though.


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## stuart little (6 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Oooh no - that would be work at height and surely I’d need a harness and fall-arrest?


And trip over it!


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## HamsterJam (6 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes I have. He does a very neat job, woodwork and youtube.
> Which one would you particularly recommend?
> n.b. If he's promoting £100 set squares or £40 dog holders I'm not interested, but I don't suppose he is.


He does review £100 rail squares but he also shows how to make one from a few offcuts too.


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> He does review £100 rail squares but he also shows how to make one from a few offcuts too.


Had a look 

Looks insane to me - the system that is, not Mr Millard, nothing personal!

And if you were going to make your own square from ply, why not instead make a large T square; a lot simpler to do and you wouldn't need any of the other gubbins at all. Dog free world!
T square potentially more precise in that it would involve far fewer components butting up to each other, each one with a slight error, increasing with use and wear


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## HamsterJam (6 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Had a look
> 
> Looks insane to me - the system that is, not Mr Millard, nothing personal!




Agreed, that sort of kit is well outside my budget but a £40 MFT type top and a few dogs probably are not.
One advantage of the rail square vs T-square is it connects to the rail so the whole assembly becomes one unit to move about. Must admit at the moment I use an old (imperial and apparently quite accurate) roofing square to line up the guide rail which mostly works well but can be a faff at times. 

Did you see this….


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Agreed, that sort of kit is well outside my budget but a £40 MFT type top and a few dogs probably are not.
> One advantage of the rail square vs T-square is it connects to the rail so the whole assembly becomes one unit to move about. Must admit at the moment I use an old (imperial and apparently quite accurate) roofing square to line up the guide rail which mostly works well but can be a faff at times.
> 
> Did you see this….



If it was me I'd look at making a large set square from ply, with a rail tacked on the bottom edge to engage with the starter straight edge on the board to be cut, so it'd align tight with just one hand. Big knob in the middle to hold it with.
No reason why it shouldn't be even more accurate than the fussy MFT/dog set up, as there would be fewer components needing to be close fitting, resulting in fewer random/systematic errors.
The term "multi function table" seems to be misleading - it's clearly a "single function table" - namely cutting sheet material.


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## nosuchhounds (8 Dec 2021)

Im transferring over to Festool finally as I want to take cabinet making more seriously. There's a lot of haters out there but I will be going with the MFT 3. For me its all there, out of the box with the exception of calibration. I'm a huge fan of Mr Millard and his approach. I love the ability of repeat, consistent and efficient cuts and its an investment 2nd hand prices of Festool aren't far off the original prices.

I maybe be a sucker, 'saw me coming' etc but hey ho


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## JobandKnock (8 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Oooh no - that would be work at height and surely I’d need a harness and fall-arrest?


No, just a podium and a padded hard hat with chinstrap! And what about the rescue plan you'd need for the harness


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## JobandKnock (8 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Another question; why not align the track saw with a large T square, then you wouldn't need any of the gubbins at all?
> You could make your own with size/angles to suit.


Last year into this we laid probably 30,000+ square feet of plywood sub-floor. A big mill conversion with loads of cuts around pillars, stair openings, odd angle walls, etc. A plunge saw with rails and an Insta Square was just so much faster than any other way of doing things (very important when working on price and to tight deadlines), so those "bells and whistles" are far from a waste of money _in that environment_. Similarly on lots of interior fit-out jobs having a plunge saw/rail set-up saves time and the effort of cleaning up edges - especially when you are doing stuff like installing wall panelling, etc. But that is intensive trade usage - which is what these things were designed for. I've never had much use for an MFT, mainly because I have almost always had access to a panel saw, but if I were making a lot of, say, kitchen cabinets and had no sliding carraige panel saw I'd certainly consider an MFT. It's just the price...


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## jonn (9 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Still trying to find a demo of somebody doing something useful on one of these very expensive tables with holes in things.
> Total failure so far.
> Is it just about buying attractive gadgets?
> What can they do which can't be done on a normal bench, or even a B&D workmate (£44 B&Q) and a lot easier too?
> ...



MTF = £300 Festool badge = £700 (here in Norway)?


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## martin.pearson (9 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> If it was me I'd look at making a large set square from ply, with a rail tacked on the bottom edge to engage with the starter straight edge on the board to be cut, so it'd align tight with just one hand. Big knob in the middle to hold it with.
> No reason why it shouldn't be even more accurate than the fussy MFT/dog set up, as there would be fewer components needing to be close fitting, resulting in fewer random/systematic errors.
> The term "multi function table" seems to be misleading - it's clearly a "single function table" - namely cutting sheet material.



Your square idea would work but not sure how it would be more accurate as the MFT top & dogs are 100% accurate. Not sure where fussy set up comes from either, maybe it's not to your liking but I don't find it fussy at all. Had my table for about 18 months, not used every day but often enough, the dogs fit as snuggly today as they did the day I first machined it, the dogs are stainless steel so not much chance they are going to wear being pushed into a bit of wood & when I go my Son can either carry on using them or sell them lol. 
Maybe generally Multi function is a bit misleading but now days lots of things are, for me it is multi function as I use it for everything, not having a woodworking bench it gets used for a lot of things you might use that for, I can't do some of the things a vice would be needed for but I do clamp a lot of different things on my table. I don't have a decent tablesaw so the MFT top & rail set up gets used for a lot of the things that you might use a tablesaw for. I use mainly hardwoods so I am not cutting sheet goods most of the time lol. It doesn't suit everyone, as with most things it depends what you do & how you like to work. 
As with most things there is normally another way to work, you have to decide how you want to work & what might be best to help you do that efficiently & easily. The set up saves me time & makes things fairly easy for me although I don't have anything to compare that against, in the future things might change, always happy to look at new ways of working lol


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## mikej460 (9 Dec 2021)

martin.pearson said:


> You won't be able to use clamps as you have said & you won't be able to lock the dogs in place from the underside of the table but I think that is about all, all the dogs that I have seen fit in the holes but don't poke out the bottom of the table so you should be good there.


I have 4 mft tops from CNC Designs screwed into a 2x4 frame to give me a very large assembly and sheet dimensioning table using a Triton tracksaw and a 1500mm Triton rail for cross cuts and smaller cuts then two joined 1400mm Evolution rails for ripping full sheets. It works very well and I have dimensioned sheets of 18mm birch ply and mdf on it for a number of projects. I've also assembled our new 4.5m x 2.5m greenhouse frames on it, cutting out enough mortice and tenons than I care to remember then gluing, screwing, clamping and sanding on the same table. I use Quad Dogs that screw tight into the hole without protruding through the bottom, likewise you can buy various clamps that you can use in blind holes. The only issue you may face is with tracksaw rail clamps but I use Axminster rail clips to hold my rail against 2 tall Quad Dogs.

I've been following this thread and I understand Jacob's frustration with the cost of mft gear, it can be a very expensive rabbit hole that requires strong discipline and self challenging to avoid the 'ooo shiny shiny' temptation, although I doubt Jacob would ever be sucked in .

The bottom line, iterated by others, is it's a horses for courses solution. If it doesn't appeal then don't buy it. Likewise if you see the benefit of a tracksaw but not all the gizmos then there are plenty of tracksaw saw board type solutions on Youtube. I'm a fan of the hybrid bench designs that use the best of mft functionality with a solid bench. HookedOnWood is a good example as is the one made by @billw in his post here Workbench Design | UKworkshop.co.uk. and @ian33a in his post Custom MFT top

For me the mft is another tool which I use for dimensioning, quickly and accurately; it is also an excellent assembly table but I still have my old solid beech school bench for planing or malleting the hell out of something. One day I plan to build a new bench that incorporates both concepts along the lines of the two above but maybe with a hinged extension similar to that used by @petermillard


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2021)

mikej460 said:


> .....
> 
> I've been following this thread and I understand Jacob's frustration with the cost of mft gear, it can be a very expensive rabbit hole that requires strong discipline and self challenging to avoid the 'ooo shiny shiny' temptation, although I doubt Jacob would ever be sucked in .
> ......


The only frustration was trying to find out what it was for - which wasn't easy! It's the "Multi function" in the title which was misleading, and one or two unconvincing youtube demos.
Turns out it isn't multi function at all but is a single function system for cutting sheet materials and barely essential IMHO whether you have a track saw or not, which I'd worked out by post #10 which seems like weeks ago now!
Track saw looks handy and that soft start plunge cut is a good idea but I don't cut enough sheet to need one.
The sacrificial board under a track saw or circ saw with straightedge, is also a good idea but not exactly a new one - I've done it in the past - not a whole dedicated board just whatever I've got in the scrap heap to slip under a cut. Similar for occasional routing jobs
I don't see the point of all the predrilled holes you could rapidly drill just the ones you need for a job, or tack on a few laths as stops, bung in a few nails, screws, clamp on your track/straightedge, whatever. And anyway I don't have room for another massive bench in my workshop.
I do think it's a bit oversold but don't mind me just carry on!


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## Jake (10 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> The only frustration was trying to find out what it was for - which wasn't easy! It's the "Multi function" in the title which was misleading, and one or two unconvincing youtube demos. Turns out it isn't multi function at all but is a single function system



I haven't got one but if I didn't have a table saw I would probably buy one. It doesn't claim to be a Universal Function Table. Smashing in deep mortices by hand? No. Using a router to mortice? I imagine so. Seems aimed to me at the site market, picked up hobbyists because there are similar convenience reasons.


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## John Brown (10 Dec 2021)

It is easy, in my opinion, to convince yourself that you need something like this. Personally, I don't have the room for an MFT, but I have to admit to having various items that looked to be indispensable, if not life changing, that are gathering cobwebs. 
I can see how an MFT would be useful if I did that sort of stuff for a living, but as a semi-retired firmware writer I can still feel those must-have rays burning into me...
I think I'll stop reading this thread now...


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## jonn (10 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> It is easy, in my opinion, to convince yourself that you need something like this. Personally, I don't have the room for an MFT, but I have to admit to having various items that looked to be indispensable, if not life changing, that are gathering cobwebs.
> I can see how an MFT would be useful if I did that sort of stuff for a living, but as a semi-retired firmware writer I can still feel those must-have rays burning into me...
> I think I'll stop reading this thread now...


Do like I do: Go to AliExpress and look up all the small useful things you can get. Few things as exciting as small parcels in the mail


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## HamsterJam (10 Dec 2021)

Sooo what can we do on an MFT?

1. Accurately cut sheet material using a tracksaw - this seems to be the No1 use
2. Clamp work pieces at 90degrees (eg mitred frames) during glue ups
3. Clamp flat workpieces for sanding, routing and carving
4. Hold pieces still for machining biscuit joints/domino jointing, etc
5. Quickly clamp down a small bench machine (mitre saw, bench grinder, etc,)

….what else?


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2021)

Jake said:


> I haven't got one but if I didn't have a table saw I would probably buy one. It doesn't claim to be a Universal Function Table.


Multi function Table


> .......... Using a router to mortice? I imagine so.


But why?


> Seems aimed to me at the site market, picked up hobbyists because there are similar convenience reasons.


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## JobandKnock (10 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> ….what else?


Impress your mates? (although I doubt it would work with my mates)



Jake said:


> Using a router to mortice? I imagine so.


I'm similarly non-plussed. Why? For housings I tend to just use the mitre saw and a chisel



Jake said:


> Seems aimed to me at the site market, picked up hobbyists because there are similar convenience reasons.


Maybe in Germany. It's a handy crosscutting/cut to length device, but I can't see there being many site jobs that would justify either the expense or the pain of dragging such a big piece of kit around - unless you want to make bookcases or kitchen cabinets in situ (not a common need, surely?). I once bought a Workmate 2000, designed and built in Germany. Nicely made piece of kit but BIG a PIA to move around a site or get in the van - either too big or not big enough - so mine spent at least a decade at the back of the garage until I had a clear out and sold it in the Small Ads.

German carpenters must do things differently. The most obvious use is the one @petermillard puts his to - as a small workshop piece of kit for which it seems to be very appropriate. On site I use a rail square, which has the advantage of being considerably smaller, if a bit more basic


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## ian33a (10 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Sooo what can we do on an MFT?
> 
> 1. Accurately cut sheet material using a tracksaw - this seems to be the No1 use
> 2. Clamp work pieces at 90degrees (eg mitred frames) during glue ups
> ...



.... it also brings sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, fresh water systems, public health - oh, and peace. But aside from that, what else have the Romans MFT tables brought for us? 

{apologies in advance - this is probably lost on rather too many people}


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## HamsterJam (10 Dec 2021)

ian33a said:


> . it also brings sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, fresh water systems, public health - oh, and peace. But aside from that, what else have the Romans MFT tables brought for us?



Are you a cheesmaker?


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## Distinterior (10 Dec 2021)

Me and two of my mates were sitting in the Amphitheatre in Pompeii about 15 years ago......It was a scorching hot day and as interesting as it was, we couldn't help partially enacting the Judean Peoples Front..(or it may have been the Popular Front of Judea..) scene...When my mate shouted across the Amphitheatre....."Splitters" at the top of his voice..We got told off and asked to be quiet..!


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## Sporky McGuffin (10 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I don't see the point of all the predrilled holes you could rapidly drill just the ones you need for a job



I think the point of them is that they're already there and in guaranteed positions, so (overstating the faff element) no need to find a drill, find a charged battery for it (or a mains point), find the right bit for whatever you're doing, measure the position to the required degree of accuracy, find your drill stand thing, and then drill the hole hoping you've done it accurately enough for the job at hand.

Bit like using Technic Lego for making yourself toys instead of just some strips of ABS and hot glue and a drill or two and a ruler and a protractor and a lathe and mill to make whatever connectors and brackets and stuff you need. The former is fast, accurate, easy, and - importantly for a lot of things - is a COTS (commercial-off-the-shelf) solution so you can easily acquire more of anything.


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## DBT85 (10 Dec 2021)

cor this one is still rumbling on eh?


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## Beanwood (10 Dec 2021)

HamsterJam said:


> Sooo what can we do on an MFT?
> 
> 1. Accurately cut sheet material using a tracksaw - this seems to be the No1 use
> 2. Clamp work pieces at 90degrees (eg mitred frames) during glue ups
> ...



This pretty much covers what I use mine for.

It really does make 90 degree (Or 45 for that matter) joins for boxes etc very quick and easy. Yes, I'm sure it could be done with a workbench, some screws, some batten, a square.... but for me - an occasional user - at £40 for a top which is guaranteed square, life is just too short!!


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## Bojam (10 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Turns out it isn't multi function at all but is a single function system for cutting sheet materials and barely essential IMHO whether you have a track saw or not, which I'd worked out by post #10 which seems like weeks ago now!



It clearly is multi-function as many has gone to great pains to explain. I think you are being willfully obtuse. The fact it doesn't appeal to you is neither here nor there. Clearly it works for many people for the reasons outlined at length in this thread. 

You can use it with a tracksaw to make perfect 90 and 45 degree cuts. Not only on sheet materials but solid wood as well. I do the latter frequently and it works very well. I don't have room for a sliding table saw and have found this solution to work for me. 

IN ADDITION to this core function, an MFT style bench also allows varied clamping/work holding solutions for hand planing (yes, this is possible as long as the MFT top is mounted onto solid heavy duty bases - which mine is), joinery, sanding/scraping and assembly. I also have a router plate installed into my large homemade MFT top and with a couple of different fences I can use a table mounted router to do a whole range of tasks. 

I have a small workshop (in fact two small spaces - one inside with just enough room for a PT and bandsaw and the other shown below in the photos which is a covered space outside). Since space is at a premium I need multi-functional solutions to maximise what I can do. This bench fulfills my needs as a hybrid woodworker.


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## TomGW (10 Dec 2021)

Initially I bought a Lidl/Parkside tracksaw, fitted it with a Freud blade and got an Evolution 1.5m track - no major cost involved. Before I had ever heard of an MFT I set up a part sheet of MDF fitted with a straight edge and two permanent stops to register the track at precisely 90 degrees. This delivered the cross-cutting accuracy of a MFT for very little cost. I’ve got an MFT top now but still use the original setup as well.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2021)

Bojam said:


> It clearly is multi-function as many has gone to great pains to explain. I think you are being willfully obtuse. The fact it doesn't appeal to you is neither here nor there. Clearly it works for many people for the reasons outlined at length in this thread.
> 
> You can use it with a tracksaw to make perfect 90 and 45 degree cuts. Not only on sheet materials but solid wood as well. I do the latter frequently and it works very well. I don't have room for a sliding table saw and have found this solution to work for me.
> 
> IN ADDITION to this core function, an MFT style bench also allows varied clamping/work holding solutions for hand planing (yes, this is possible as long as the MFT top is mounted onto solid heavy duty bases - which mine is), joinery, sanding/scraping and assembly. I also have a router plate installed into my large homemade MFT top and with a couple of different fences I can use a table mounted router to do a whole range of tasks.


Obviously you can extend its usefulness if you really have to but the question is why bother if you have anything resembling an ordinary work bench. 
Difficult anyway with the expensive but lightweight paste-table version and I doubt that steel pegs in MDF would stay precisely positioned if used as stops for typical planing operations; possibly the most energetic hand tool activity of all.


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## Bojam (10 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Obviously you can extend its usefulness if you really have to but the question is why bother if you have anything resembling an ordinary work bench.



I and many don't. If you are primarily a hand tool woodworker or have a tablesaw (not a tracksaw) and need a dedicated bench for hand tool work then sure, a traditional bench is a sensible option. An MFT style bench might still be a worthwhile addition to complement your set up for use in assembly etc.

If on the other hand you have limited space and/or need a bench to use with a tracksaw and for all the other functions outlined at length above then an MFT style bench seems the way to go. I would also dispute the idea of "extending its usefulness'; all the uses described are built into the system as all they depend on is having a grid of bang-on accurate dog holes across the worktop. Sure, buying clamps and a fence system etc. involves a cost but so does e.g. buying a tablesaw or vices for a traditional bench.



Jacob said:


> Difficult anyway with the expensive but lightweight paste-table version and I doubt that steel pegs in MDF would stay precisely positioned if used as stops for typical planing operations; possibly the most energetic hand tool activity of all.



I don't have a lightweight version and again this illustrates the point that this is in fact a very versatile setup - you can build an MFT style top into whatever kind of bench you want. I could mount a top into a traditional (M&T) frame for maximum strength if I wanted (e.g. like this). I don't use long dogs as planing stops. I have low profile dogs or better still use strips of valchromat with dog holes that align with the holes in the top that can be fixed in place with low profile dogs. Rock solid and in two years of use I have observed no change in the state of the holes (no slop developing from use). I don't hand plane stock flat and square anymore but use handplanes for cleaning up joints, smoothing, etc.

Horses for courses. I get the strong impression that you're just arguing for the sake of it, which is fine I guess but gets pretty tedious after a while.


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## gcusick (10 Dec 2021)

I’ve encountered numerous people who, offered a stick, will deliberately grab the wrong end and steadfastly refuse to give it up, no matter what anyone says.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2021)

Bojam said:


> ....
> 
> Horses for courses. I get the strong impression that you're just arguing for the sake of it, which is fine I guess but gets pretty tedious after a while.


No not really - I asked a question and got the answer by about post #10 as I've said several times. Everybody has been chipping in about it since, including yourself!


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## Spectric (10 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> and I have to observe the German mandatory quiet times for my area (1200 - 1400 during the day every day, after 2200 - 0700 Monday through Thursday, 0000 - 0700 Friday and Saturday, and all day Sunday).



So what are the Germans upto between 12 and 2, I can get the 10 at night to 7 in the morning and maybe Sunday? Is it a retirement village or ?


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## ian33a (10 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> So what are the Germans upto between 12 and 2, I can get the 10 at night to 7 in the morning and maybe Sunday? Is it a retirement village or ?



They are all having a nap. Having a nap and doing nothing at the weekend makes them much more productive than us Brits  .


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## Spectric (10 Dec 2021)

It is all really simple if you boil it down a bit, tracksaw is great with or without an MFT and a very portable solution to cutting sheet goods but once upon a time they would have been cut by a carpenter with big arm muscles just as easily but may never have heard of MDF! Then if you have large workshop the tracksaw is no match for the panel / table saw in any way, it is fast and repetative so the tracksaw is just one solution for those with smaller spaces and or need portability but not an absolute essential tool.


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## paulrbarnard (10 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is all really simple if you boil it down a bit, tracksaw is great with or without an MFT and a very portable solution to cutting sheet goods but once upon a time they would have been cut by a carpenter with big arm muscles just as easily but may never have heard of MDF! Then if you have large workshop the tracksaw is no match for the panel / table saw in any way, it is fast and repetative so the tracksaw is just one solution for those with smaller spaces and or need portability but not an absolute essential tool.


Yeah but an 8x4 laser CNC is a step up again for repeatability. It all depends on where your personal requirements and costs coincides.


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## MikeK (10 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> So what are the Germans upto between 12 and 2, I can get the 10 at night to 7 in the morning and maybe Sunday? Is it a retirement village or ?



The exact time varies from state to state, but this is nap time for toddlers. The exception to the midday period appears to be any noise associated with education activities, such as band practice.



ian33a said:


> They are all having a nap. Having a nap and doing nothing at the weekend makes them much more productive than us Brits  .



From what I can understand, the church still has a strangle hold on Sunday activities and encourages families to spend quality time together by going to the park long family walks instead of shopping for that new Porsche. This doesn't work well if you work for public transportation or the food industry. Since all of the retail stores are closed on Sunday, Saturday becomes interesting since it is the only day of the week some people have to take care of the weekly shopping.


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## ian33a (10 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> The exact time varies from state to state, but this is nap time for toddlers. The exception to the midday period appears to be any noise associated with education activities, such as band practice.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I can understand, the church still has a strangle hold on Sunday activities and encourages families to spend quality time together by going to the park long family walks instead of shopping for that new Porsche. This doesn't work well if you work for public transportation or the food industry. Since all of the retail stores are closed on Sunday, Saturday becomes interesting since it is the only day of the week some people have to take care of the weekly shopping.



It brings back memories of "Long Saturday" when, as a resident in Munich, the centre of the city was literally heaving with shoppers on a mission to buy everything before the shops closed because there was no retail opportunities available on Sunday.

It also brings to mind (and I was single and in my late twenties at that time) a trashy semi strip show on German TV called Tutti Fruity. (If I recall correctly, it was actually produced in Italy and shown on European TV). Anyway, there was a special screening where you could get a 3-D effect provided you had the special Tutti Fruity 3D glasses. So, several of us British ex-pats asked our German colleagues where we could buy these glasses. "At the opticians, where else would you buy glasses?" was the straight laced reply. ... I loved many of the aspects of my time living in Germany and have always been amused at how some cultures can be so prim. Contrast that with the 18 months I spent working in Hamburg where the people there loved the British humour and were always up for a Monty Python sketch or three. 

I expect foreign nationals in Britain have similar thoughts about the various differences in cultures around the UK.


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## MikeK (10 Dec 2021)

ian33a said:


> It brings back memories of "Long Saturday" when, as a resident in Munich, the centre of the city was literally heaving with shoppers on a mission to buy everything before the shops closed because there was no retail opportunities available on Sunday.



When I was stationed here in the mid-70's, I can remembers stores closing for the weekend around noon on Friday. In the past 20 years, store closing hours have changed to noon on Saturday to 2200 on Saturday. In rural areas, the small shops still close early on Saturday, but the large stores are expanding hours. I predict it will take less than another 50 years before the German government comprehends the lost revenue by Sunday restrictions.



ian33a said:


> It also brings to mind (and I was single and in my late twenties at that time) a trashy semi strip show on German TV called Tutti Fruity. (If I recall correctly, it was actually produced in Italy and shown on European TV). Anyway, there was a special screening where you could get a 3-D effect provided you had the special Tutti Fruity 3D glasses. So, several of us British ex-pats asked our German colleagues where we could buy these glasses. "At the opticians, where else would you buy glasses?" was the straight laced reply. ... I loved many of the aspects of my time living in Germany and have always been amused at how some cultures can be so prim. Contrast that with the 18 months I spent working in Hamburg where the people there loved the British humour and were always up for a Monty Python sketch or three.
> 
> I expect foreign nationals in Britain have similar thoughts about the various differences in cultures around the UK.



I never watched Tutti Frutti, but my wife used to watch and enjoy it. She doesn't appreciate "Morty Python" or the Goodies, but she tolerates me watching them. However, she does like Fawlty Towers and Auf Wiedersehen, Pet.


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## Spectric (10 Dec 2021)

Having Sundays as a break from retail sounds like a good idea, and I can remember the days when in the UK most shops closed on Wednesday afternoons and Sunday was very quiet.


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## Spectric (10 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Yeah but an 8x4 laser CNC is a step up again for repeatability.


Never got involved with CNC and wood but they were fantastic in metal work fabrication and a much cleaner process than the gas cutters of old. Would never have thought of cutting wood with a laser though althoughagain ion metal you can both cut and weld with laser.


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## JobandKnock (10 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Bit like using Technic Lego for making yourself toys instead of just some strips of ABS and hot glue and a drill or two and a ruler and a protractor and a lathe and mill to make whatever connectors and brackets and stuff you need.


Luxury! You kids! In my day it were lump o' coal and dollops of dripping! None o' this fancy Lego stuff


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## JobandKnock (10 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> Since all of the retail stores are closed on Sunday, Saturday becomes interesting since it is the only day of the week some people have to take care of the weekly shopping.


I thought there was one evening a week (often Thursdays in next door Netherlands) when the shops are open late. Or am I getting the two countries confused?

When I was working in Germany (late 1970s) I recall "shopping Saturdays" (first Saturday in the month) when the town used to go mad busy


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## MikeK (10 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> I thought there was one evening a week (often Thursdays in next door Netherlands) when the shops are open late. Or am I getting the two countries confused?
> 
> When I was working in Germany (late 1970s) I recall "shopping Saturdays" (first Saturday in the month) when the town used to go mad busy



The German Ladenschlussgesetz (store closing law) was mostly unchanged here since it was created in the 50's. Sometime in 2006, the federal government allowed each of the 16 states to regulate their own store opening hours, which included 24 hours a day, six days a week, and four Sundays a year for six hours a day. A couple of the states, including Bavaria, did not make any changes to the hours, so the towns still close early during the week and roll up their sidewalks early Saturday afternoon. Exceptions to the law are stores in airports, train stations, and petrol stations.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Luxury! You kids! In my day it were lump o' coal and dollops of dripping! None o' this fancy Lego stuff


Coal? Luxury! In our house it were slack all week wi coke on Sunday (if you were lucky).
Lego hadn't been invented but we did have Meccano and Bayko.


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## mikej460 (10 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Coal? Luxury! In our house it were slack all week wi coke on Sunday (if you were lucky).
> Lego hadn't been invented but we did have Meccano and Bayko.


there are still people who live like that

..oh sorry I misread it as crack all week and coke on Sunday


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## Chippyjoe (10 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Coal? Luxury! In our house it were slack all week wi coke on Sunday (if you were lucky).
> Lego hadn't been invented but we did have Meccano and Bayko.



Cripes, didn't think you were that old Jacob. I think you will find Lego first came out in 1932.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> Having Sundays as a break from retail sounds like a good idea, and I can remember the days when in the UK most shops closed on Wednesday afternoons and Sunday was very quiet.


Every town around here had a different half day. Sunday was closed and shops had different lunchtime closing - we had to plan the itinerary if we went out to pick goods up otherwise we would get to them all as they closed. The three we used most shut 12pm - 12.30pm, 12.30pm - 1.00pm, and 1.00pm - 1.30pm.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2021)

Chippyjoe said:


> Cripes, didn't think you were that old Jacob. I think you will find Lego first came out in 1932.


it sez ere: _A patent application for the modern Lego brick design was filed in Denmark on 28 January 1958 _
We never saw them, they came along when we were into fags, booze, rock n roll and birds








Lego - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Keith Cocker (11 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> Me and two of my mates were sitting in the Amphitheatre in Pompeii about 15 years ago......It was a scorching hot day and as interesting as it was, we couldn't help partially enacting the Judean Peoples Front..(or it may have been the Popular Front of Judea..) scene...When my mate shouted across the Amphitheatre....."Splitters" at the top of his voice..We got told off and asked to be quiet..!



Just like the Labour Party Annual Conference but held in the Sun.


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## Jake (12 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> I'm similarly non-plussed. Why? For housings I tend to just use the mitre saw and a chisel



Should have said Domino I suppose. You took my point a bit more literally than it was meant, which was more that they look more suited to power tool use than hand tool use.


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## transatlantic (12 Dec 2021)

Jacob, I think the problem is that you don't have 3.


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## Spectric (12 Dec 2021)

There is way to much green bits and propaganda, you can have a decent MFT without the cost of getting festool involved, what is missing are the microjig slots which festool don't like because then you don't need expensive green clamps that do not deliver the most flexable solution.


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## transatlantic (12 Dec 2021)

Yes, because the Micro jig clamps are cheap


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## mikej460 (14 Dec 2021)

@Jacob you might be interested watching this
Track saw Crosscut sled Precision for Cut large and Small wood - YouTube


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