# Lie-Nielsen Chisels-anyone else having problems?



## Bean (7 Dec 2006)

Hi all
I have took to the slope and bought a lie nelson bevel edge Chisel, I am reaaly pleased with it, it fits my hand a treat and the length is just right for me. 

But the edge is starting to crumble, has anyone else had this problem or will I be the only one to complain to him.


----------



## Mirboo (7 Dec 2006)

Hi Bean,

I have a few Lie-Nielsen chisels and so far I have not had the problem you describe. I sharpen the bevel edge chisels with a 30 degree primary bevel and a micro bevel of 1 to 2 degrees. 

I have read that A2 steel is unsuitable for use with the kind of sharpening angles usually applied to paring chisels (i.e. down around 20 degrees and lower) and the result of sharpening chisels with angles this low can be a crumbling edge. As I've already stated though, I haven't sharpened my chisels with this kind of bevel and I have not experienced the problems described.

What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen your chisel? What are you using the chisels for when you suffer the crumbling edge?


----------



## Alf (7 Dec 2006)

Mirboo":26ga5rok said:


> What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen your chisel? What are you using the chisels for when you suffer the crumbling edge?


Them's the vital questions. And possibly "what are you using it _on_?"  

Cheers, Alf


----------



## CONGER (7 Dec 2006)

Heads up... I have crumbling LN chisels... primary angle 25ish... secondary angle a hair more... am rather surprised.

Also surprised (suspicious) at how (VERY) fast the chisels were dealt with on my TORMEK (and later on NORTON stones / paper)... I had anticipated that the A2 steel would be a pig to deal with... but it melted away!

I have not addressed this with TLN... was waiting until I had time after Christmas... but now that Mr Bean has raised his concerns, I thought I might come public.

-gerard-


----------



## MikeW (7 Dec 2006)

I would simply steepen the bevels as Ian has.

They come with a low grind, but do need a steeper secondary, which you can elect to become a single bevel with time if you don't like two bevels. They are bench chisels if nothing else.

A small secondary bevel will still allow good paring as the chip will only deflect a short way up the bevel. Same with a heavier chip.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Handrubbed (7 Dec 2006)

This topic seems to pop up every so often on forums. I have the chisels and have had no problems with the factory grind, which I believe was 30 degrees. I know a secondary bevel is recommended.

One suggestion that has been proffered is that the heat treatment spoils the first little bit of the steel at the business end of the chisel. Many have reported that the good sound steel is there if you hone back to it. Contact LN if you have doubts about your chisels. You will be satisfied in the end.


----------



## dchenard (7 Dec 2006)

Interesting, I had a discussion elsewhere with Paul Kierstead recently about this...

Right off the bat, I was surprised and non-plussed when I read on the LN site that the chisels come with a 30 degree bevel, and that a 5 degree micro-bevel should be added. Try to chop dovetails with that...

I think Paul experienced a bit of chipping on his chisels (he'll chime in if I misquoted him). Then again, at the Ottawa Wood Show last weekend Rob Cosman was touting the virtues of the LN chisels, saying that these are the first chisels that he could put a 17 degree bevel angle on them, and hold that edge while chopping DTs. Quite contradictory if you ask me...

Maybe, that is my suspicion, that there might be a bit of QC problem at LN, and that some of the chisels come out of the factory improperly tempered.

In any case I am now into Japanese chisels (received my first Imai yesterday), and I bought one LN chisel just so that I can make direct comparisons. The LN chisel feels very good in the hand, but I haven't worked with it yet.

DC


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 Dec 2006)

Mike

Can you compare - or at least describe - your experience with the Blue Spruce dovetail chisels. These are also A2 steel. They are designed specifically for paring dovetails. I know you - and others - like them. Based on the high praise of many I have ordered (but not yet received) a set. I could have bought LN (similar price) but the high bevel angle required for the LN put me off these. 

The question I have is whether there is a difference in edge holding with these two brands, both of which use A2 steel. Is the bevel angle the Blue Spruce also recommended at 30 degrees?

The other observation is that, since traditional paring chisels are honed at 20 degrees, the concerns that a 30 degree bevel will not facilitate ease of paring is to some degree recognised as unfounded since this is the traditional angle of Japanese paring chisels. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## bugbear (7 Dec 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> The other observation is that, since traditional paring chisels are honed at 20 degrees



The lowest angle I've read of (in old sources) would be grind at 20, hone at 25, or "single bevel" at 25, for fine work.

BugBear


----------



## MikeW (7 Dec 2006)

Hey Derek--good to see you around here more...

I have honed my Blue Spruce once since receiving it. If I wasn't date challenged, I would know how long that was  

Paring for the back's mortise and squaring the hole for the bolt's square shoulder isn't exactly a challenge for a chisel, but it is similar to paring cuts for DTs and other joints.

I have cleaned up 30/40 or so DTs in some Peruvian Walnut, which isn't a demanding wood. And I typically saw the waste out of a joint with a coping saw, so they were truly paring cuts.

Would I bash this chisel? Probably not because it's got a Cocobolo handle. There also is no shoulder per se on the shaft. I do use light taps.

But I think this highlights the distinction of paring and bench chisels. I would never use any of my paring chisels--the Blue Spruce included--in place of a bench chisel. I may take some light paring cuts with the bench chisels if it was in my hand, but not the other way 'round.

I also use BB's angles for my paring chisels--the dreaded Sorbys :lol: 

Oh, one more thing. The wood one typically uses also should be taken into consideration. If all I pared was softer hardwoods or softwood, I too would lower the bevel angles. I haven't gotten so far down the slope I have two sets of paring and bench chisels for hard or soft woods...

Take care, Mike


----------



## Bean (7 Dec 2006)

In reply this chisel is ground to the factory settings with the barest seconday bevel a true mico bevel. It has been used on some air dried elm and a little paring on some ebony. 
Handrubbed suggested


> One suggestion that has been proffered is that the heat treatment spoils the first little bit of the steel at the business end of the chisel. Many have reported that the good sound steel is there if you hone back to it.


In that case I would suggest that LN have a production/quality issue, which needs to be addressed by themselves and not by their customers.

I will update you all on TLN's responce to my questions later


----------



## woodbloke (7 Dec 2006)

Have got the standard set of LN chisels, no problems with them so far, small secondary bevel at 30 deg, though am tempted to increase this to 32 deg in the light of reading this thread - Rob


----------



## Philly (7 Dec 2006)

I've had my set for rather a while. Used them a lot for most chiselly (is that a word? :wink: ) tasks and also have given them a good beating with the mallet.
I did find some of the chisels needed sharpening pretty quickly when I first got them but after a couple of sharpenings this seemed to pass and they now perform superbly. A gentle hone keeps them razor sharp and they hold an edge for a long, long time.
So perservere, Bean, and give them a good workout.
Hope this helps
Philly


----------



## Anonymous (7 Dec 2006)

I never know if you hand toolers are having a laugh, 30 deg increase to 32 deg, :shock: wouldn't have a clue what angle my chisels are. :lol: 

Also I'm a bit curious as to what chisels don't fit your hand nicely, even old stanleys fit quite nicely.


----------



## Alf (7 Dec 2006)

Bean":3mmtiyca said:


> It has been used on some air dried elm and a little paring on some ebony.


Not necessarily edge-friendly timbers then...


----------



## Colin C (7 Dec 2006)

senior":1exd6ilf said:


> Also I'm a bit curious as to what chisels don't fit your hand nicely, even old stanleys fit quite nicely.



Senior

Have you ever tried the blue handle marples with the square handles :roll:  
I am happy with my old marlpes ( boxwood handles)


----------



## Anonymous (7 Dec 2006)

senior":32zmoatn said:


> I never know if you hand toolers are having a laugh, 30 deg increase to 32 deg, :shock: wouldn't have a clue what angle my chisels are. :lol:
> 
> Also I'm a bit curious as to what chisels don't fit your hand nicely, even old stanleys fit quite nicely.


You are not alone :roll: 
I know mine are vaguely 30ish at the cutting edge but with no bevels at all :lol: just gently rounded. They are sharp though believe it or not.
I used to get visits from a keen type woodworker and he would pick tools up and wave them about and say things like "nice balance" etc. I never knew what he was talking about and I don't think he did either. All my chisels fit my hand nicely even the rubbish ones, except for the ones without handles.
Re faulty LN chisel don't worry they'll replace it just like anybody else would - but this will cause a lot of excitement in the LN enthusiasts corner if earlier threads are anything to go by :lol: 

cheers
Jacob


----------



## Anonymous (7 Dec 2006)

Colin C":3w0o4nkb said:


> senior":3w0o4nkb said:
> 
> 
> > Also I'm a bit curious as to what chisels don't fit your hand nicely, even old stanleys fit quite nicely.
> ...


Just had a quick look - yes I've got several marples with squarish blue handles :shock:. Never noticed the handle shape before. I've had em for 30 years or so. Are you saying there's something wrong with them? 

cheers
Jacob


----------



## Colin C (7 Dec 2006)

Jacob

I have use them and find them uncomfortable to use but the friend that had them was happy, by the way I dont have any LN's or any chisels like that.


I do have a set of the black handled stanley that I use for site work and like the handles on them, I just dont find the square handle comfortable.

Not saying there is any thing wrong with them  

Regards Colin


----------



## Colin C (7 Dec 2006)

Plus the ones I had the chance to use dont hold an edge for long so I go the blue stanleys which I still have some some where


----------



## Anonymous (7 Dec 2006)

Colin C":2yisyutz said:


> snip
> 
> Not saying there is any thing wrong with them
> 
> Regards Colin



Thats OK then you had me worried 8-[ don't want to have to buy any new ones I'm hoping these'll see me out.

cheers
Jacob


----------



## Colin C (7 Dec 2006)

Jacob

I glad you got some good ones as I and some of my friends I have worked with have found that they dont seem hold an edge that well.


----------



## Paul Kierstead (8 Dec 2006)

dchenard":3ae4e660 said:



> Right off the bat, I was surprised and non-plussed when I read on the LN site that the chisels come with a 30 degree bevel, and that a 5 degree micro-bevel should be added. Try to chop dovetails with that...



I find chopping dovetails to be no problem at all at 32 or so degrees that I use. I am kind of surprised that someone would consider this a steep angle for chopping?



> I think Paul experienced a bit of chipping on his chisels (he'll chime in if I misquoted him).



errr... if you'll recall I vehemently said it was *not* the LN chisels. I have had a little with A2 chipping at low angles when abused. This seems to be a general attribute of A2, but experiences seem all over the map, so there you go...


----------



## dchenard (8 Dec 2006)

Paul Kierstead":1sggsc3h said:


> dchenard":1sggsc3h said:
> 
> 
> > Right off the bat, I was surprised and non-plussed when I read on the LN site that the chisels come with a 30 degree bevel, and that a 5 degree micro-bevel should be added. Try to chop dovetails with that...
> ...



Here, I stand (actually sit) corrected  

I bought one LN chisel just so that I can compare with the Japanese chisels I'm acquiring. It's beautiful with the cocobolo handle, feels nicely balanced, I'll put a few miles on it and see how it fares (in my view) against the other chisels...

But in order to make a fair comparison, I'll bring the bevel angle down to 25 degrees, we'll se how it holds up... (hammer) 

DC


----------



## David C (8 Dec 2006)

Rob Cosman is grinding at 17 degrees but certainly not honing at that angle.

Elm is very abrasive, possibly the worst of the english timbers.

Steve Elliott has some plane blade research which suggests that about 33 degrees suits A2 best.

The chisels are much harder than UK, some Japanese harder still. I notice with my students that the way they are used has a lot to do with edge life. Straight cutting lasts well prying and levering doesn't. I would polish at 35 to 40degrees for morticing.

As ever, if not happy, talk to them and something will get sorted PDQ.

Best wishe,
David


----------



## Alf (8 Dec 2006)

Jacob, please, no, not more inverted chisel snobbery. [-o< 

As it happens, Senoir's comment diverts me into a tiny cul-de-sac - what are youse folks using to measure bevel angles down to one or two degrees? Just curious, s'all. No sub-text or nuffink.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## bugbear (8 Dec 2006)

Alf":1riihuej said:


> what are youse folks using to measure bevel angles down to one or two degrees?



Measuring the bevel angle of an extant chisel would be very hard; honing or grinding to a known angle is simple with some jigs. (*)

BugBear

(*) potential flame war


----------



## Alf (8 Dec 2006)

So how are you measuring to make sure the jigs are getting it right? You might _think_ you're honing to 32°, but how d'you _know_ without measuring the resulting bevel? You _might_ be getting slippage, dippage and all round missage and honing to <gasp> 31° or something. (Sorry to mention this horrible possibility - don't have nightmares, folks)

And yes, I concede that there is an element of sub-text creeping in here. 'Pologies. Such exactness doesn't come naturally to me and I find it uncomfortable.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous (8 Dec 2006)

Alf":3ixh84jx said:


> Jacob, please, no, not more inverted chisel snobbery. [-o<


Just trying to bring people back to reality. Sharpening just seems to be getting more difficult for everybody, for no obvious reason :shock:


> As it happens, Senoir's comment diverts me into a tiny cul-de-sac - what are youse folks using to measure bevel angles down to one or two degrees? Just curious, s'all. No sub-text or nuffink.
> 
> Cheers, Alf


Sub-texts are there like it or not - sorry you don't choose. 8) 
Good question - you'd need magnifying glass or microscope plus other lab equipment, esp if dealing with "micro" bevels :lol: 
How did they manage in the bad old days - rough oil stones, no jigs, no diamonds etc. At least the woodwork didn't suffer from this deprivation, if anything it was generally a lot better :shock: and no routers! :roll: 

cheers
Jacob
PS re LN faulty (or needing fettling) chisels - isn't "useable out of the box" their greatest USP? Hmm


----------



## George_N (8 Dec 2006)

If you use a honing guide the angle is dictated by the geometry of the jig. The height of the chisel back above the stone is fixed by the jig and the other two sides of the triangle are dictated by how far the blade projects through the guide. The angle is determined by simple trigonometry...sine x = opposite over hypotenuse, where the side opposite the angle is the height of the blade on a line perpendicular through the centre of the roller and the hypotenuse is the length of blade projection.


----------



## Anonymous (8 Dec 2006)

Oh no not trigonometry as well! Most of us don't work in a woodwork _laboratory_. :roll: 
The big weakness of all the jig designs I've ever seen is dead simple - yes they set the angle as required *BUT* to a _minimum_ which it is then easy to exceed - and worse; impossible to go below (without re-adjustment). 
This is because the wheel is in the wrong place. It should be infront, not behind. Instead of little chariot think little wheel-barrow IYSWIM.
Don't forget - you read it here first. 8)

cheers
Jacob


----------



## George_N (8 Dec 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2so4pqpb said:


> Oh no not trigonometry as well! Most of us don't work in a woodwork _laboratory_. :roll:
> The big weakness of all the jig designs I've ever seen is dead simple - yes they set the angle as required *BUT* to a _minimum_ which it is then easy to exceed - and worse; impossible to go below (without re-adjustment).
> This is because the wheel is in the wrong place. It should be infront, not behind. Instead of little chariot think little wheel-barrow IYSWIM.
> Don't forget - you read it here first. 8)
> ...



You don't need to work in a lab or to use trig, the point I was making is that you don't need to measure the actual bevel to know what the angle is. And yes, the point of a honing guide is to constrain the angle (here we go again). If the wheel of the guide stays in contact with the stone you can't get exceed the set angle and if you were able to go below that angle you wouldn't be honing the edge, would you.


----------



## Anonymous (8 Dec 2006)

Yep

I have seen this on my chisels. 

I tried a back-to-back test against my AI chisels whilst cutting some large half-blind DTs in Ash.

1) The AI chisels took a sharper edge. This was noticeable when I tried paring the DT sockets.

2) The AI chisels did not 'crumble' at the edge whilst the LN did

3) The AI stayed sharp for much longer too.

I subjectively prefer my LN chisels to my AIs (they feel and look so precise and such good quality) and get excited when my monthly chisel parcel arrives. 

However, the AIs are 'better' chisels in that they actually work better.


----------



## Paul Kierstead (8 Dec 2006)

dchenard":3nn6q01n said:


> But in order to make a fair comparison, I'll bring the bevel angle down to 25 degrees, we'll se how it holds up... (hammer)



Fair is using both as they were designed to be used. This is of course not a apples-to-apples comparsion, but that is because they are not both apples.


----------



## Anonymous (8 Dec 2006)

George_N":2zc5pufl said:


> If the wheel of the guide stays in contact with the stone you can't get exceed the set angle


But it may not, and you may.


> and if you were able to go below that angle you wouldn't be honing the edge, would you.


You can't hone an edge, however flat or micro the bevel, without removing material from behind the edge i.e. "backing off" (except for the first few molecules of steel on the first pass) can you. 
Backing off even if going below the angle is still "honing". It's an arbitrary distinction being made between honing, grinding, backing off, this bevel, that bevel etc etc. Going below the angle makes the backing off part of honing easier and quicker. 
cheers
Jacob


----------



## bugbear (8 Dec 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1zcio0mc said:


> Just trying to bring people back to reality. Sharpening just seems to be getting more difficult for everybody, for no obvious reason



It's the long threads that do it.







BugBear


----------



## dchenard (8 Dec 2006)

Paul Kierstead":3gzt6om3 said:


> dchenard":3gzt6om3 said:
> 
> 
> > But in order to make a fair comparison, I'll bring the bevel angle down to 25 degrees, we'll se how it holds up... (hammer)
> ...



We seem to have a different view as to what "fair" means...

Fair to me means that we compare two chisels , prepared the exact same way, and look at the results (sharpness and edge retention). If one chisel requires a more obtuse bevel angle to "survive", well, I rest my case...

Besides, Rob Cosman (who is the exclusive LN dealer for all of Canada, for those who didn't know) doesn't seem to care much for "the way they were designed to be used", judging by the bevel angle he uses. Granted, I've never seen him use anything harder than walnut in his demonstrations, so this is a factor we shouldn't neglect.

DC


----------



## dchenard (8 Dec 2006)

David C":1n3ho924 said:


> Rob Cosman is grinding at 17 degrees but certainly not honing at that angle.
> 
> Elm is very abrasive, possibly the worst of the english timbers.
> 
> ...



From what I know, he adds a couple degree micro-bevel (freehand), so that would put the final angle at about 20 degrees.

As for Elliott, I'm aware of his work and am thankful for it. But the dynamics of chisel vs. plane blade use is different, and I believe (without anything to back up my assertion, I'll admit) that the ideal angle for a chisel is different for that reason.

A plane blade in use is "stressed" only on one side of the blade, while a chisel makes contact with the wood on both sides, therefore "balancing" the stresses on the edge. Because of this a steeper bevel angle can be used IMHO.

But obviously one wouldn't use a 20 degree bevel for morticing and prying (ouch)...

Best,

Denis


----------



## MikeW (8 Dec 2006)

I'm going to jump in here and then disappear again...

My own madness, no matter the chisel brand or era of manufacture, is to find the lowest possible angle it will do the type of work, on the woods *I* use and more or less keep them [near] there.

That my chisels I use for moderate to heavy chopping are blunt in comparision to my paring chisels doesn't bother me. That a manufacturer grinds them at a specific angle and has a recomendation may or may not fit what I do with the woods I use--obviously Cosman feels the same way. If the hardest wood I used was Walnut, all my chisels would be at a lower angle than they are too.

If an edge crumbles like my Sorby paring chisels did when first obtained, then grind them carefully back a little. If that cures them--mine got noticibly stronger--and that's not enough, steepen the bevel a little. Also like I did. In all likelihood that will improve them.

The fact is that I see many, many vintage chisels which are used up. I have a few. I made butt chisels from them. They hold an edge still [at the bevel angles they arrived with which I merely maintained]. Point being, whether these were better chisels than those made down the road was immaterial. Someone found a bevel angle which suited their work and wood and used the heck out of them. Most likely then bought more and used them up. Making things.

Take care, Mike


----------



## CHJ (8 Dec 2006)

MikeW":1zjy3h87 said:


> ...snip.. Someone found a bevel angle which suited their work and wood and used the heck out of them. Most likely then bought more and used them up. Making things.



=D> =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Alf (8 Dec 2006)

MikeW":25ev0fkb said:


> Making things.


Steady, boy; them's fightin' words. :lol: 

As far as the precision bevel angle stuff goes, I'm assuming in the absence of alternative input that all this precision to with a degree or two is entirely dependant on what the jig settings say? Crumbs, you must have considerably more faith in these things than I do, that's all I can say. :shock:

Cheers, Alf


----------



## bugbear (8 Dec 2006)

MikeW":26v9y6uk said:


> The fact is that I see many, many vintage chisels which are used up. I have a few.



One "interesting" thing that occurs with old chisels is that they weren't hard all the way back to the tang.

(parenthesis; IIRC Marples once had a slogan on their new (at the time) oven tempered chisels - "Good to the last inch")

When such a chisel wears, it gradually becomes softer at the cutting edge, and eventually (I suspect) stops getting used much.

Of course, it's easy to find such chisels at car boot sales, and then conclude that old chisels are soft. (I don't think MikeW is making this mistake, BTW)

BugBear


----------



## dchenard (8 Dec 2006)

Alf":q3lob6te said:


> MikeW":q3lob6te said:
> 
> 
> > Making things.
> ...



Were they? :-k 

Naaa, Mike wouldn't do that... :lol:

DC

Looking for things to make :mrgreen:


----------



## Anonymous (8 Dec 2006)

bugbear":acm5ufcq said:


> BugBear


Looks like this one's a runner :lol: 

cheers
Grimsdale and the Bevelly Sisters


----------



## Alf (8 Dec 2006)

There are considerably more dead horses being beaten than runners in Netland, but I did my best. Somehow I don't anticipate us needing this one as often... :lol:






Cheers, Alf


----------



## Paul Kierstead (8 Dec 2006)

dchenard":2g3tf09a said:


> Fair to me means that we compare two chisels , prepared the exact same way, and look at the results (sharpness and edge retention). If one chisel requires a more obtuse bevel angle to "survive", well, I rest my case...



So in conclusion, the only determining factor of chisels is whether they crumble at an angle you determine, regardless of the construction or intended use of the chisel?

To summarize: You bought it, you are going to grind it at less of an angle then the manufacturer recommended, you are going to pound on it, the edge will crumble, then you will report that L-N chisels crumble.


----------



## David C (8 Dec 2006)

To answer Alf's question, a good one, I squint against a scrap of wood with some lines drawn with a children's maths protractor, while holding the chisel against a flat surface. Lots of pressure above the bevel and slight rocking motion to establish where it is sitting.

This works for my grinding angle which is slightly hollow ground from the Tormek 10" wheel. Personally not too concerned with precise grinding angles.

For polishing angle, chisel held in favorite Eclipse type guide and squint again. Probably accurate to + or - a degree or two. 

If I wished to be more precise, I would set in guide, then set small adjustable bevel and take this to the protractor.

best wishes,
David


----------



## dchenard (8 Dec 2006)

Paul Kierstead":qbs5i6q6 said:


> dchenard":qbs5i6q6 said:
> 
> 
> > Fair to me means that we compare two chisels , prepared the exact same way, and look at the results (sharpness and edge retention). If one chisel requires a more obtuse bevel angle to "survive", well, I rest my case...
> ...



No ill intentions here... I'm just planning on bringing the LN to the same bevel angle I use on my other bevel-edge chisels, and we'll see... Cosman goes beyond what I'm planning to do, and is happy...

DC


----------



## Bean (8 Dec 2006)

Paul Kierstead wrote


> To summarize: You bought it, you are going to grind it at less of an angle then the manufacturer recommended, you are going to pound on it, the edge will crumble, then you will report that L-N chisels crumble.



Wrong if you read my original post. Chisels ground to recomended angle, used by hand not pounded, and they crumble.
I have some footprint chisels used on the same timbers, there edges dont crumble. So which one is worth the money?

LN at 35 GBP or Footprint at 7 GBP


----------



## David C (9 Dec 2006)

Rob Cosman is principally using the very low honing angle to remove small end grain cuts, between dovetails in pine poplar and aspen.

These are very soft woods.

If tried in Elm the results are all too predictable.

David Charlesworth


----------



## David C (9 Dec 2006)

I have been using these chisels since the first prototypes.

We work in hard to very hard timbers.

They are excellent and there is nothing to match them in current mainstream western manufacturing, that I know of.

L-N always replace faulty tools without question.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Alf (9 Dec 2006)

Bean":2qpb4955 said:


> Chisels ground to recomended angle, used by hand not pounded, and they crumble.
> I have some footprint chisels used on the same timbers, there edges dont crumble. So which one is worth the money?
> 
> LN at 35 GBP or Footprint at 7 GBP


Putting aside the possibility of a dodgy batch slipping through the net a mo', a couple of things before we roundly condemn LN chisels as over-priced tat. First up, have you tried increasing the bevel angle and seeing if that's an improvement? I don't recall the details off-hand, but I would imagine the recommended bevel angles has pretty average timber in mind. In the same way Mr Cosman can get away with a lower angle for paring softer-than-average woods, you may need a higher angle for the harder ones. How do they fair in more average timber? Secondly, the worth of something is a debatable one, but perhaps if you want a lower angle bevel for paring then it's not wholly unreasonable to say the A2 steel LNs aren't worth the money to you (and to me, as it happens - as parers that is). Thirdly, if a reasonable increase in bevel angle _does_ achieve the goods, see how long you can go between sharpenings on the LNs compared with the Footprints - again, like me, that may not be a benefit you desire so much as a lower bevel angle, but it's something that _does_ make them worth the money to some people.

No idea why I have this urge to rush to these chisels' defence, 'cos it's not like I'm a fan of the A2, but I suppose if the boot is going to be put in it'd be nice to have it put in in a balanced way. :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

David C":36yx171x said:


> They are excellent and there is nothing to match them in current mainstream western manufacturing, that I know of.


Well I've never had a crumbly chisel from Marples, Stanley, Footprint etc etc :lol:
Actually I've got a crumbly Sorby gouge but it's ancient and rusty - bought from ebay so probably also been mistreated.


> L-N always replace faulty tools without question.


So does Screwfix, B&Q, and virtually everybody. 
But LN are supposed to be never faulty - that's why they cost so much, and they are supposed to be "useable out of the box"which I understood is (was) their strongest selling point.

cheers
Jacob


----------



## Randy (9 Dec 2006)

Hello all I am new here but I have been lurking for a great while.

Anyway, I recently purchased a LN bench and mortise chisel and had the same experience as Bean - needless to say how disappointed I was. However, I was encouraged by some of the posts here to give it another try before sending them back. So last night I went to the bench sharpened up the chisles and started chiseling away at red oak. Again, the edges crumbled but not as badly as the previous time I tried them. I went through this process a couple of more times and then success.

I proceeded to abuse these chisels chopping (pounding) red oak for around 30 minutes and they maintained their edge well. I was even able to par thin shavings from end grain pine after the pounding.

thanks all,

Randy

By the way, the BE chisel was sharpened at roughly 30 deg and the mortise chisel roughly 35 deg.


----------



## CHJ (9 Dec 2006)

Randy":1dzo78mf said:


> Hello all I am new here but I have been lurking for a great while....snip..By the way, the BE chisel was sharpened at roughly 30 deg and the mortise chisel roughly 35 deg.



Welcome to the forum Randy, nothing like picking a an un-contentious subject for your first post, brave man  

Interesting that successive sharpenings cleared the problem. Something to do with production grinding defects maybe :?:


----------



## MikeW (9 Dec 2006)

CHJ":okipitib said:


> Randy":okipitib said:
> 
> 
> > Hello all I am new here but I have been lurking for a great while....snip..By the way, the BE chisel was sharpened at roughly 30 deg and the mortise chisel roughly 35 deg.
> ...


And a welcome form me, Randy!

Hi Chas,

The chisels of modern manufacture I have bought or had experience with nearly to the last one has had problems of what I would call premature edge failure until ground or sharpened back a bit.

Two exceptions. The AI chisels I have played with didn't exhibit this, nor did the single Blue Spruce chisel. All others either had edge breakage/chipping or the edge rolled easily. All got significantly better once past the first bit.

I suspect this is an issue of the hardening and or tempering process, the very edge always at risk of getting too soft during tempering, or remaining hard.

What are called High Carbon chisels have a propensity of getting soft while tempering and A2, with its very tricky hardening/tempering cycles of remaining brittle.

I have yet to meet a retailer or company who would not take their wares back if you give their tools a test, including using them a bit and in the case of chisels, a few use/sharpening cycles.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Paul Kierstead (9 Dec 2006)

Bean":2w7h9hr5 said:


> Paul Kierstead wrote
> 
> 
> > To summarize: You bought it, you are going to grind it at less of an angle then the manufacturer recommended, you are going to pound on it, the edge will crumble, then you will report that L-N chisels crumble.
> ...



The comment was not directed at you, sorry for the confusion.


----------



## David C (9 Dec 2006)

Delighted to hear that Randy's chisels are behaving now.

I think Mike's suggestion is very pertinent. This is a view which I have heard often over the last 30 years. Although I don't have the technical knowledge to confirm, it makes good sense.

I wonder about opinions on tools from people who have not actually used them....... I am not aware of any chisels or plane blades which come ready for use without some work, back polishing and honing. The amount of work needed is highly variable.

Could some kind person please correct the spelling of the title of this thread?


----------



## CHJ (9 Dec 2006)

MikeW":17rzflel said:


> Hi Chas,
> The chisels of modern manufacture I have bought or had experience with nearly to the last one has had problems of what I would call premature edge failure until ground or sharpened back a bit.
> ...snip.. Mike



I have gathered this from various comments here, it is of interest to me because in another life I had an extensive heat treatment facility (2+ mw) with inert gas argon furnaces etc. and processed many exotic alloys, obviously something is wrong with the handling of the blades if there is this inconsistency, either incorrect heating of thinner sections or damaging of the alloy when production grinding blanks to shape.


----------



## MikeW (9 Dec 2006)

David C":3gmy8swf said:


> Could some kind person please correct the spelling of the title of this thread?


And to think I use to get paid to proof read! Shows that the mind can interpret what the eye sees and correct things.

No wonder I use to proof read both forwards and backwards...Mike


----------



## Newbie_Neil (9 Dec 2006)

Hi Randy

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil


----------



## Alf (9 Dec 2006)

MikeW":1f8bocfg said:


> David C":1f8bocfg said:
> 
> 
> > Could some kind person please correct the spelling of the title of this thread?
> ...


Whereas I was never good enough to get paid... :roll: :lol: I assumed Lie Nelson was the chap who wisely turned a blind eye to chisel criticism. :wink:

Welcome to the forum, Randy. Evidentally a man of courage; good for you.

The sharpening-to-get-to-the-good-stuff phenomenon perplexes me greatly 'cos I is mighty ignorant when it comes to heat treating and such (and to a certain extent it's ignorance I treasure  ). How come some things exhibit it and some don't? Is it solely down to variables in manufacturing, or in the steel itself? I've had blades from both LN and LV that have suffered from it but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it that this mere wood butcher can see.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Lord Nibbo (9 Dec 2006)

Now I'm really in a dilemma, I've been watching this thread avidly, mainly to see if it came to a conclusion of good or bad. 

My reason is I had planned on my brother inlaw bringing me a set of nine bench chisels over fron the states when he visits in the new year.

Now I'm not so sure, do or don't I go ahead with the purchase?


----------



## Philly (9 Dec 2006)

LN
They are a fantastic chisel and beautifully built. You will not be disappointed!
At this exchange rate you know it makes sense :lol: 
I'll buy them off you if you don't like them :wink: 
Philly


----------



## Jez (9 Dec 2006)

The edges on mine havn't had any problems but i opened my chisel roll a few days ago and there were small amounts of rust starting to form on the blades... :shock: :shock: 

I keep them in the house as i don't have a workshop yet (collage) but it was quite suprising to find as i havn't had them that long, it says to apply a small coat of oil in the "care instructions" but i don't do that, but should probably start as i think that i might have learn't the hard way....

Still havn't got it off, has anybody got any ideas ? :x 

cheers,
Jez


----------



## Bean (9 Dec 2006)

Look folks its very simple really, 

LN advertise their chisels as being of a certain hardness, not as being of two quite different hardness's, the softer being the one at the working edge. The chisel is not to the advertised specification. It may be heresy to some, but it is a 'duffer' plain and simple.

As for grinding the edge away to expose good steel, that wreaks of poor production qualities, if that extra grinding is required to produce a good edge on this tool, why is it not done in the factory. After all the reason you pay so much is that you receive a good tool from the box that works from the box. Not one that requires further work to make it a good tool. I can spend 7 and not 35 to do that. Carrying out the regrinding yourself only masks the problem. 
after all if you bought a car that was not satisfactory would you just accept it and drive away or would you complain.
Unlike some on this forum I do not receive free tools from these manufacturers, hence I do not have to defend them, by intimating that a little regrinding here or there is ok and that a bit of crumbling is just one of those quirky things you get with tools. a duffer is a duffer plain and simple. Even the best manufactures get one wrong now and then, and the only way to get them to change/clean up their act is to complain.
On that note I have received no reply from LN, which I will put down to the weekend. As and when I get a reply I will let you know.


----------



## CHJ (9 Dec 2006)

Jez, The rust is probably the result of handling them, even small amounts of unseen perspiration contain enough salt to enhance the moisture content and combined with the acids from the skin encourage rust.

If it is very light try polishing it off with stiff paper and light oil.
If this fails progressively try talcum powder with light oil and then something like CIF.

Always wipe your metal surfaces with a lightly oiled rag before stowing or leaving for any length of time.

Good practice anyway to remove any resin etc. ready for next usage.


----------



## Lord Nibbo (9 Dec 2006)

Philly":3ep3k8em said:


> LN
> They are a fantastic chisel and beautifully built. You will not be disappointed!
> At this exchange rate you know it makes sense :lol:
> I'll buy them off you if you don't like them :wink:
> Philly



Interestingly a set from John Lloyd is cheaper than buying them seperately from Axminster. John Lloyds are priced at £321 Axminster add up to £337.

Buying them direct from LN they are $450 + $18 shipping within the USA so they would cost me £236 :shock: No duty, No VAT :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I wonder if they are in stock or I would have to wait, perhaps a phone call tomorrow is in order, what do you think?


----------



## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

Yes give em a bell if you really want some crumbly chisels a bit cheaper.

cheers
Jacob


----------



## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1o63hr3w said:


> Yes give em a bell if you really want some crumbly chisels a bit cheaper.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Ah but remember Jacob they have a "lovely balance and fit the hand nicely" :lol: :lol:


----------



## Paul Kierstead (10 Dec 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2fy8m1oi said:


> Yes give em a bell if you really want some crumbly chisels a bit cheaper.



As a matter of asking, under what conditions did your LN chisels crumble?


----------



## MikeW (10 Dec 2006)

Bean":2n6j9ijd said:


> Look folks its very simple really,
> 
> LN advertise their chisels as being of a certain hardness, not as being of two quite different hardness's, the softer being the one at the working edge. The chisel is not to the advertised specification. It may be heresy to some, but it is a 'duffer' plain and simple.
> 
> ...


It's simple then. And it sounds like you have initiated the proper response--send them back.

You are wrong re the quality control issues, even if your particular chisels are of wrong temper. Soft chisels, the type you believe are better, will exhibit other types of failure, and chances are once a few sharpenings have occured, will seem better than at first. Neither type in that sense are of poor quality.


> Unlike some on this forum I do not receive free tools from these manufacturers, hence I do not have to defend them...


Seeing how only three people here on the UK Forum have received what *may* be construed as "free" tools as far as I know, I find that statement contentious and ill spoken. You are basically saying their allegiance to those makers is bought and paid for. Pity you belive that.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Anonymous (10 Dec 2006)

I think Bean is voicing an opinion that is shared by many on this forum, that LN are somewhat over promoted. That they are the best, always perfect and instantly useable, and that everything else is rubbish. Coupled with the over-enthusiastic antics of the fan base a bit of a reaction is highly desireable IMHO just to bring back a sense of reality. 
I admit to being surprised that they can be faulty - my objections were only to the aggressive promotion of this one brand and misinformation about the qualities of the cheaper stuff most of us have to use.
They have only themselves to blame for their pushy and complacent marketing.

cheers
Jacob
unpaid rep for the 2nd hand rubbish end of the market :lol:


----------



## David C (10 Dec 2006)

Thank's Mike.

My main business is teaching fine cabinetmaking to adults.

When I started the tools available were at an all time low quality, or did they get even worse for a while.

In order to do fine work it helps enormously to have good tools, so I have been systematically seeking these for the last 30 years, so that I can advise students what to buy if they ask.

I also write articles and make technique DVDs.

Over the years I have had review tools from many manufacturers, often through the magazine, and not necessarily ones I wanted. Many go back, some are paid for some are not. Some I buy for myself because I am interested to try them. Some manufacturers like their tools to be available in my workshop so that students may try them.

The advice I give is entirely subjectively based on my own experience and preferences. Although the students opinions and experience are also very helpful.

It is freely given and the audience are welcome to make what they will of it.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Alf (10 Dec 2006)

Bean":2d1ow9db said:


> As for grinding the edge away to expose good steel, that wreaks of poor production qualities, if that extra grinding is required to produce a good edge on this tool, why is it not done in the factory.


Well it kinda depends on why it's happening, which is why I asked. If it's something that happens regularly enough, then perhaps they should. Or make it clear it's a possible issue in the accompanying information. On the other hand if it's a rare occurance then yeah, you have a duffer and it should go back. I'd still like to know how big a part the abnormally hard and abrasive woods you've tried them on is playing in the results you've seen though, but I guess it's only us acquirers of "free" tools who take the trouble to try out things and report back for the benefit of others.



Mr_Grimsdale":2d1ow9db said:


> I think Bean is voicing an opinion that is shared by many on this forum, that LN are somewhat over promoted. That they are the best, always perfect and instantly useable, and that everything else is rubbish.


I think Bean is voicing a lot of opinion I'd sooner do without, but what I believe he's saying is that he expects the chisels to work on abnormal woods without making allowance for the characteristics of the tool and the method of manufacture. What the "fan base" are saying is that's possibly an unreasonable expectation. But _unless he tries the options_ we don't know if it's a legitimate argument or that he has, in fact, got a rubbish example. In which case we'll all get accused of being over-enthusiastic fans again when we say "no problem then, LN will take them back". As Bean is apparently desiring more than these chisels in their present state can provide and is unwilling to steepen the bevel to see if that's an improvement or try them on less forbidding woods, it's best all round if he gets his money back and I look forward to hearing of the out-of-the-box perfection of whatever he gets as an alternative so we all know what to recommend instead.

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Just remembered my "obligation" to a certain manufacturer - Buy Lee Valley Chisels, folks. I've never tried one but they must be good, eh? Sheesh. :roll:


----------



## Bean (10 Dec 2006)

Who would have thought a duff chisel would cause so much excitement. Firstly I am told that the crumbly edge is due to not using the manufacturers recomended and ground angle, now I am told is because I have not changed the angle, anyone else on here getting dizzy yet :wink: 

As I have said I do not have an axe to grind I have a duff chisel, plain and simple. If there are people on here who cannot bear to think that LN could possibly produce anything that is not perfect, its their problem and something they need to sort out with their psychiatrist. 

I agree with David C's comment on the need for fine tools and the alarming and appalling quality tools produced by some 'quality' toolmakers.

I agree that certain toolmakers are pushed hard on this forum, for one reason or another, and I have been pm'd by a member in the past asking me not to share my opinions, when they have informed new members to only buy a 400 gbp saw when they needed to cut a piece of skirting board when a 5 gbp hardpoint saw would have done it. Strange, unless there are undisclosed vested interests.

Alf your comment of


> I think Bean is voicing a lot of opinion I'd sooner do without


 backs up my earlier posts. If, as and when LN contact me regarding this chisel, and either replace it with a good one or refund my money I will be happy. I will however not allow my allegence to a company stop me from believing that they can, will and do produce 'duffers' from time to time.

As to the general merits of the chisel I like it, it fits my hand well, I like the length and the weight. I would have liked to see the fine side bevel extending further back along the chiels length, but it doesn't, oh well. If it could hold an edge it would be a better than good chisel. As it doesn't hold an edge, maybe it will make a good door wedge or paint can opener, I will let you know when I have explored those possibilities.


----------



## Alf (10 Dec 2006)

Bill, either you're willfully missing my point or I'm making it poorly, but either way we're evidentally not going to agree. 



Bean":1hb5nxa4 said:


> Alf your comment of
> 
> 
> > I think Bean is voicing a lot of opinion I'd sooner do without
> ...


Okay, lets' spell this one out for you. The opinion I'd sooner do without is this (now repeated) half-pineappled claim that I have some sort of allegiance to Lie-Nielsen. I do not. I never have had. All opinions I've _ever_ expressed on forums concerning LN tools have been based exclusively on tools I have either bought, been given as gifts by family or have been loaned for the short duration of a review. Even if that was not the case, I suggest you stop judging others by your own evidentally low standards.

Alf


----------



## Paul Kierstead (10 Dec 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":gp8kdhkg said:


> They have only themselves to blame for their pushy and complacent marketing.



Show me the marketing that *LN* has done. Sure some people are overly enthusiastic, but that doesn't make the product bad or the company at fault.


----------



## Philly (10 Dec 2006)

Something I forgot to mention earlier-I had the same problem with my Japanese chisels when I first got them. They chipped out real easy at first, but with a few sharpenings this passed and their edge holding ability improved considerably. So not just a problem with the L-N's (in my experience)

:!: On another note- I am becoming disheartened at the growing number of thinly veiled personal attacks on this forum. Please take a moment to read through the forum rules. In future, any similar occurances will be deleted and members warned. If you have evidence of members acting improperly please bring this to the notice of the Forum Moderators.

Let's keep our forum the friendly, sharing place it is  

Philly


----------



## Lord Nibbo (10 Dec 2006)

Bean":210n06qq said:


> Who would have thought a duff chisel would cause so much excitement. :wink:
> 
> I agree with David C's comment on the need for fine tools and the alarming and appalling quality tools produced by some 'quality' toolmakers.



So your not keen on LN, so please tell me who makes a better chisel?


----------



## CHJ (10 Dec 2006)

Philly":2f03gj9g said:


> Something I forgot to mention earlier-I had the same problem with my Japanese chisels when I first got them. They chipped out real easy at first, but with a few sharpenings this passed and their edge holding ability improved considerably. So not just a problem with the L-N's (in my experience)
> ...snip..Philly



Philly, is there any correlation visible between 'time on shelf' after manufacture and brittleness of product. (manufacture/sale dates) 
Do chisels left for an extended period between uses exhibit the same problem for instance.
I am wondering if a type of metal fatigue is taking place based on time, possibly initiated in production grinding. It is not unknown for the crystalline structure of an alloy to behave totally different when used or machined in alternate applications.


----------



## CHJ (10 Dec 2006)

Lord Nibbo":gkein9di said:


> So your not keen on LN, so please tell me who makes a better chisel?



Should the question not be: "Who makes a chisel most suited to my work pattern and requirements".

I do not think that a top of the range Rolls Royce is the most appropriate vehicle to collect the next batch of must haves from the timber yard.


----------



## Lord Nibbo (10 Dec 2006)

CHJ":a85orzu7 said:


> Should the question not be: "Who makes a chisel most suited to my work pattern and requirements".
> 
> I do not think that a top of the range Rolls Royce is the most appropriate vehicle to collect the next batch of must haves from the timber yard.



No the question is "Who makes a better chisel" :?


----------



## Anonymous (10 Dec 2006)

Alf":abfi92lv said:


> The opinion I'd sooner do without is this (now repeated) half-pineappled claim that I have some sort of allegiance to Lie-Nielsen. I do not.
> Alf



Didn't think that at all - is David C who is their principle rep I thought. We don't take any notice of anything you say anyway :lol: :lol: 

regards
Jacob


----------



## Newbie_Neil (10 Dec 2006)

OK, that's enough. Philly has asked nicely.

This thread is locked.

Neil


----------

