# Can you really make a decent living at woodworking?



## mrbmcg (24 Oct 2004)

Hi Guys

I'm wondering what peeps think of the above question?

About 18 months ago (~February 2003) I gave up a pretty good career in Electronic/Software Engineering to build myself a workshop and take up an HNC course in Furniture construction and design in the Autumn of that year. (Before you ask, I had a lot of savings due to a wee windfall)

The reason behind the rash move was that I really really love woodworking and had become somewhat bored with my current career. Anyway, I proudly built my 5m x 5m workshop.

The course turned out to be hopeless and I binned it after the first three months simply because I was learning more from reading and making sawdust of my own, and to be honest I had no intention of working for anybody but myself so the qualification was really incidental.

To cut what is becoming a long story a little short, for the last 10 months or so I have really struggled to make ends meet with the woodworking side of things, so much so, that I am back working 3 days a week as an electronic design engineer in order to pay the bills.  

What I am finding is that although I get plenty of interest (mostly through friends of friends who I have done pieces for) people in general seem pretty scared of the price. I don't know how the pros on here charge, but basically I worked out and hourly rate of £10.00 per hour (picked out of the air based on the fact that I figured £20k per annum is what I needed to make ends meet wrt overheads etc)

£10 per hour for skilled (matter of opinion I guess  ) labour doesn't seem too high, especially considering what other tradesmen get :shock: 

People also seem absolutely astonished at the price of wood :shock:

Can anybody give any recommendations or the benefit of their experience? Am I overpricing or underpricing? What advertising do others do and do you find it effective? i.e. Yellow Pages, local press, Radio? Does anybody do any market research or do they fly by the seat of their pants? Do you make most money from private orders or for commercial? How wide and varied do you spread your net both in terms of catchment area and the type of work you take on?

I realise that this is probably a whole can of worms and everybodies situation is different but I'd appreciate folks points of view. :?


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## johnelliott (25 Oct 2004)

This has cropped up before, and will again. Each time it does, I am one of the pessimists. My position is that it is virtually impossible to make a living from the type of woodworking that you are describing. The reasons are many- here are some-

People select furniture for themselves by going to a furniture shop where they can choose from many examples that they can see, touch, sit in, on, at, etc etc. The vast majority of people are not able to visualise finished pieces from sketches or even CAD drawings. Why would they want to order a piece from a maker? 

The price issue. Consider what you would need to charge for a bookcase, for instance. Then go to a pine shop and check out the prices. This exercise is correct because most people don't differentiate between pine and hardwood. (Or even hardwood and veneered board!)

The costs of running any kind of business in this (and every other developed country) are considerable. Councils see businesses as cash cows that can be milked for the funds they need. Even if you don't pay rent you certainly ought to be paying business rates, which are quite a bit more than the council tax on private properties. 

I reckon the best way to make a living from woodwork is to make kitchens. Kitchens are the only area where people are sometimes prepared to spend the kind of money needed to support a small business. Even so, you will need to be turning over just under the VAT limit (just over £1000 a week) to make a go of it. Making at that speed is perfectly possible, but selling at that speed is difficult.
John


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## Sgian Dubh (25 Oct 2004)

It can be done, but it takes years of training, practice and experience to build up the necessary expertise, just like any other trade, skill, profession or business. It's not something you can easily learn as you go, just like an inexperienced electrician is more likely to electrocute themselves than wire a house successfully without suitable training.

It's a pity you gave up your HNC course so quickly for if it is decently run you would have learnt many basics, such as timber technology, an essential subject that you were asking about here a few days ago-- I'd guess it would have been an essay project delivered as a series of lectures requiring additional research on your part. It becomes second nature to know about wood and the problems you're likely to encounter with it, and basic timber tech is a step in the right direction of understanding the subject.

Probably the worst error you are making is charging far too little. £10 an hour (for a nominal 40 hour week) is probably not even covering your overhead which include workshop costs, advertising, holiday pay, illness, insurance, heating, machinery purchase, servicing and replacement, vehicle maintenance and purchase, depreciation, etc.. That's just an abbreviated list.

How is it that people know what you are charging for your wood and board materials? Are you breaking out your estimates and revealing every line item? It's none of the customers' business what you resell your materials for. How much are you marking up your material costs? It should be a minimum of 25%, and it would be better at 50% or perhaps even 100%, but you need a business model to establish your mark-up. Wood and materials don't get from the supplier to your workshop for free, and then there's the cost of storage, etc.. I imagine The business studies element of a HNC should cover at least some of these essentials.

For the moment you've done the right thing-- going back to part-time work to cover your day to day living. What do you earn per hour doing that, and what is the company you work for charging their customers per hour for your time? That should give you a clue of what to charge as a woodworker because your wages to them are either just part of overhead-- the ones I mentioned earlier, or a direct cost that they charge for.

This is all sounding like a slam, but it's not meant to be. Going into business as a woodworker is just that-- it's business. It's not romantic, with besmocked artisans lovingly crafting wood in idyllic rustic locations with cows chewing cud contentedly in lush meadows in the background.

Business is cruel, it's mean, it doesn't suffer fools gladly, it's all about profit and cashflow. Business needs both profit and cashflow like lungs need oxygen. You need to think hard about if you really want to be in business and if you do, you need a strategy, a business plan. What are you good at? What aren't you good at? You need to be able to understand a profit and loss sheet, a balance sheet, overhead, direct and indirect expenses, etc.. Slainte.


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## Steve Maskery (25 Oct 2004)

Morning Bob
I would echo everything that has been said above.
In particular, £10 per hour is totally inadequate to run a business on. We pay our window cleaner that for about 15mins work. His overheads are a bucket and squeegeee, as far as I can see.

As a rule of thumb, charge per hour the number of 10Ks you want to earn in a year, as there are approx 1000 billable hours in a year. The rest of the time you are working and not getting paid. So at £10 per hour you can expect to earn 10k. If you are happy with that, fair enough.

This is why so much comes in from abroad. A Little Man in China earning 2K per year can live with the same lifestyle and standard of living as everyone else he knows. That, however, would not support my nice comfortable middle-class lifestyle in suburban Nottingham.

I think John is right. People see kitchens with different-coloured specs to "proper furniture". If you can stand the tedium of multiple boxes, and can develop a style which is efficient, marketable and quick, then maybe, just maybe you can make a living. But if, like most of us, you wnat to be a designer-maker, then you must either
a) treat it as a hobby and earn your crust elsewhere, or
b) get a good busines model (taking into account ALL your costs) and work on getting the right sort of customers (friends and family, no matter how dear, are the WORST kind of customers).

Sorry if all that seems depressing on a Monday morning, it just happens to be true.

Ah, if only I heeded that advice myself! I have very few customers, precisely because I do try to cost things properly, and most people just laugh. Those who are prepared to put heir hand in their pocket get somethng special, and value it.

Regards
Steve Maskery, MBA.


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## Anonymous (25 Oct 2004)

This is a subject dear to my heart, as I've tried twice to do the same thing.

My own experiences are, the average person is just not willing to pay for qualaty, the people who are willing to pay already know of someone. 

The jobs I did manage to get were for people that I was doing other work for anyway eg. fitting their kitchen and was asked to make bedroom furniture.

As mentioned kitchens could be a direction to go in, maybe more now than ever, a lot of people are getting fed up with the sameness of the high street shops.

I was lucky in that I had the kitchen fitting to fall back on, this may be the reason I could not make a go of making furniture, compared the fitting was easy money (and more of it).

At the moment I am making 3 solid pine kitchen units for a friend of a friend, she had already rejected a quote for £600 as being too dear, I am doing it for a lot less. After materials I am proberly on about £5 per hour but I am doing it in my spare time and have loved every minute of it.

Best of luck, do have a go you could be lucky.

Dan


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## devonwoody (25 Oct 2004)

Most of the words above are the basics, 
Many successful business men in the past have also used a technique which is allied to exhibitionism. Think of Virgin, RB is an exhibitionist of sought. He gets free publicity by some of his actions. I can think of other businessmen who created a name for themselves by clashing with authorities and again gaining free publicity.
You could build the largest garden bench in the world and perhaps get free publicity and customers might come flocking to your door wanting your work (hopefully not more gigantic benches)
Anyway another source of obtaining your goal (you might enjoy that on the way to success)


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## mrbmcg (25 Oct 2004)

SD

I am sorry to say that the HNC course *was* hopeless. There was a section on the nature and behavior of wood and it was pretty interesting, however I simply hadn't seen *that* extreme a movement when resawing a board before. Lack of experience I guess is my crime. The guy who took the course said that he had never seen case hardening in the flesh and we shouldn't really worry about it - gives you an idea of the standard  

There was no content on running a small business unless you took the second year HND course and I simply couldn't afford another wageless year unfortunately.

I _know_ that I lack experience, what I am possibly trying to avoid is developing the experience required over a number of years then finding disappointment anyway.  

I have done the courses with the local authorities on starting a business and whilst the administration etc. is a bit scary I am more than willing to learn. I agree that I am not charging enough, the problem I have is one of getting started. I cannot charge too much because I won't get any business (it seems) yet I cannot charge too little because I can't afford to.  

I have thought about the kitchen business but it already seems pretty competitive in my area from the research I have done. It it generally true that the guys on here who do this for a living all do kitchen work?

For the three days I work as an electronic engineer I get about £20k per annum, pretty good yes, and enough to cover my living expenses comfortably, but no good for my spirit I'm afraid. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday I'm a grumpy pain in the backside whilst Thursday and Friday I'm an amiable happy go lucky chap  

My wife said much the same as johnelliot in that you have to try and break the mould of how your average person chooses their furniture. It's not an easy task by any means and one I'm just not sure I'm up to, which is a problem when you are trying to earn a crust from it eh?


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## Aragorn (25 Oct 2004)

I don't tend to do kitchens (though I am doing one at the moment :roll: ). My line of woodwork is what I call custom-fitted furniture. Stuff like making cupboards, wardrobes, storage solutions such as window seats, home office, bars and fitted dining tables etc.

The advantage for customers is that they get to use all the storage space available rather than having to compromise with an off-the-shelf product. Of course it costs a lot more, but these are the type of customers who place a high value on the space available to them in perhaps a small flat or unusual shaped area.

For me, most of the time I get to build stuff that is enjoyable to do. It's often hardwoods, but mostly pine to be painted. There's always something interesting to tackle, such as how to best use the space. I enjoy the design part and working with the customer to realise their ideas. My preference is for making free-standing furniture in the workshop, and often this kind of work comes off the back of a fitted-furniture project. I'll sell it that way as well! Such as suggesting a coffee table to match, or a bookcase to follow at a later date...

I don't do woodwork full-time any more, but not because of the money side. As for what you charge - it's too cheap, BUT you have to weigh it out against how fast you can work. I haven't charged by the hour for years. I price up the job, based on what it will cost me to finish the project vs what is a reasonable price to ask for such a thing. It works out around £20 - £30 per hour, but I can make a pine fitted double wardrobe in 2 days. Can you work at that speed? If not it may not be reasonable to charge this kind of price.

I think everyone above has given sound advice. There's nothing wrong with having two jobs, and if at least one of them is what you really really want to do, then it doesn't matter if you don't make a fortune by it!

Very best of luck


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## mrbmcg (25 Oct 2004)

I'd like to thank the guys who have replied with their sage advice. 

I guess there are a lot of things to consider and it is the preverbial can of worms like I said at the start. Of course luck has it's part to play too.  

Aragorn, your job description sounds just like what I would be looking to do. I don't really want to commission really complicated designs day in day out. For a start I don't think the "arty" side of my brain is developed enough to be good enough at it to succeed  

What I am good at is problem solving and seeing a project through to the end, which is probably why I became an engineer in the first place. I have in a shortish space of time developed decent enough (I hope  ) woodworking skills which I hope to improve given time. My background has meant that my computer skills (CAD and 3D modelling etc) are pretty good and that comes in handy too.

I just need somebody to pay me to do it eh?  

It's a hard life!


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## Shady (25 Oct 2004)

Lots of good advice. I think John Elliot is closest to summing up the situation. One of the biggest problems in the 'Peoples' Socialist Soviet Republic of the United Kingdom' is the sheer tax/ business stifling red-tape problem. It'll be even worse in Scotland, because you've now effectively got an additional layer of pigs with their snouts in the trough.

It is fascinating to compare this with the US based boards: the American legislation/tax burden is sufficiently sensible that entrepreneurs are rewarded, rather than regarded as a bottomless pit of money: their answer to the same question is basically 'yes, if you are willing to put the hours in'. In addition, their cost of living is less terrifying (a Canadian friend reckons that any given salary allows about twice as much 'living quality' there as here.)

The whole attitude here reminds me of the parable about geese and golden eggs: Gordon Brown and his minions ain't classicists: to them, any business is their re-election fighting fund, to be consumed as necessary in order that he's still in power after the next round..... :x


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## Chris Knight (25 Oct 2004)

Bob, 

I have seen this question asked and answered many times in various electronic fora over several years. The answer is always the same. 

You say the arty side side of your brain is relatively undeveloped and as a fellow engineer who has the same problem, I have felt that this as much as anything would be a limiting factor if I ever wanted to turn professional (as I have retired already, there is not much likelihood of this but I have thought about it nonetheless!). 

For furniture to be distinctive and desirable it has to have "sex appeal" and this depends almost 100% on the arty stuff I find difficult. I once worked with a car manufacturer and despite it being a technical product, all our research showed that - believe it or not! - the most important selling factor across the industry worldwide was colour. Of course there are other factors that influence people but I realise it ain't going to be how well my drawers slide in or out. It is more likely to be the way in which a bit of moulding catches the light - which I personally cannot see very well at the design stage.

I guess Aragorn's approach would suit me best but even then I rather fear that the pressure of meeting deadlines and earning a crust would take much of the pleasure out of my woodworking


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## Keith Smith (25 Oct 2004)

I too agree with everything that has been said; especially you are not charging enough.

Bob, one option would be if you could find some niche product that you could make and market? but that involves batch production which rather takes the pleasure out of the job.

I recognise several of the posters here also write for magazines, it doesn't bring in much money but every little helps and it does your credibity (and price you can charge) no harm.

3 days electronics and 2 days woodworking sounds pretty good to me, if it means you have no money worries.

Keith


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## Sgian Dubh (25 Oct 2004)

I'm truly surprised that your tutor had never seen case hardening "in the flesh." I could demonstrate it to him or her probably three times a week. Going on that comment I'd wonder what such an inexperienced teacher could teach.

Timber seasoning faults can be a major pain in the pants, and we as furniture makers need to know all about it. We shouldn't be fobbed off with, "Oh, that's the way wood is." It isn't. Poorly seasoned timber is mostly a dryers/kiln operators fault. Within reason skilled kiln operators should get it right 80- 90% of the time, but there are always fair cases where things go wrong as in every operation.

It's difficult to charge the full rate for work if you're not experienced and still learning. You can't expect the customer to pay for your learning experience with no discount. It's a difficult bind to be in. You need to make money, but you can only work at about a third of the speed of a skilled worker so charging full whack for something that will take you three times longer means you're overcharging.

The custom furniture makers clients don't buy at IKEA or the Conran Shop. Nor do they buy at department stores. They buy 'art' from artists in wood from galleries and directly from the 'artiste', sic. This means adopting something of an artistic persona, exhibiting at art galleries, your work being seen at invitational exhibitions, etc., and generally getting your name about. 

In your area you should look for the website of Woodschool in the Borders, and the Scottish Society of Furniture Makers-- I think it's called that. The name Tim Stead comes readily to mind. Departed now, but the moniker Stonehenge Stead still sticks and you can see his influence in contemporary Scottish craft furniture. They had a group show during the last Edinburgh Festival opposite the Caley hotel in St. Johns Church at the end of Princes Street-- I'm not a church-goer so never remember church names.

Anyway, if 'art' furniture is not your style you'll need to service a need that people are willing to pay for. Kitchens and built in wardrobes are often less demanding stylistically but technically challenging, and this might be an area to explore. So too are items found at craft fairs and the like, but the work is much more mundane and less intellectually interesting if I can put it that way. That end of the market is more about economy of production and competing on price, but not entirely so.

I'd keep your part-time day job going until you find your true money making furniture niche, if there is such a thing for you, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a contented furniture making amateur without deadlines and creditors to worry about. Slainte.


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## Midnight (25 Oct 2004)

> It's not romantic, with besmocked artisans lovingly crafting wood in idyllic rustic locations with cows chewing cud contentedly in lush meadows in the background.



Gotta keep burstin that bubble huh..??

:wink: 

welcome aboard Richard...


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## Shady (25 Oct 2004)

> It's not romantic, with besmocked artisans lovingly crafting wood in idyllic rustic locations with cows chewing cud contentedly in lush meadows in the background.
> 
> 
> Gotta keep burstin that bubble huh..??



They were all quietly killed by the government during the foot and mouth crisis: might have spoilt the NHS statistics...
:wink:


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## Alf (25 Oct 2004)

Shady, _please_, no more politics... :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## mrbmcg (25 Oct 2004)

Sgian Dubh":3b0gbww3 said:


> I'm truly surprised that your tutor had never seen case hardening "in the flesh." I could demonstrate it to him or her probably three times a week. Going on that comment I'd wonder what such an inexperienced teacher could teach.



Honestly, SD that is an almost verbatim quote. His notes for the course were about 20 years old (not that the concepts are any different). The lady lecturing on "Design" was clearly on prescription medication and often fell asleep in the class. Workshop time was less than one day a week continually interrupted by the teacher taking time out to gather us round to laugh and joke at the classes mistakes and mishaps. The upholstery lecturer preferred to racont to the class about his time spent as the man inside the "Broxy Bear" suit. (The Glasgow Rangers FC match day mascot) instead of how to operate the sewing machine.

The only real subject of real value was the wood finishing class which I really enjoyed. So much so I now take it as an evening class (free materials and expert advice, you can't beat it  )



> Timber seasoning faults can be a major pain in the pants, and we as furniture makers need to know all about it. We shouldn't be fobbed off with, "Oh, that's the way wood is." It isn't. Poorly seasoned timber is mostly a dryers/kiln operators fault. Within reason skilled kiln operators should get it right 80- 90% of the time, but there are always fair cases where things go wrong as in every operation.


As a newbie, even armed with the facts it's quite intimidating returning to the timber yard with wood. I tend to try to work around it rather than confront them with it. Up in this kneck of the woods it's hard enough trying to get them to give them two minutes of their time never mind listen to you complain about their timber  



> It's difficult to charge the full rate for work if you're not experienced and still learning. You can't expect the customer to pay for your learning experience with no discount. It's a difficult bind to be in. You need to make money, but you can only work at about a third of the speed of a skilled worker so charging full whack for something that will take you three times longer means you're overcharging.



I agree wholeheartedly. It's part of the reason my hourly rate is so low currently. I feel as if I have to try to attract people who might not normally commission apiece and the easiest way to do it is via price I guess. As my experience grows I hope to increase both my speed and hourly rate as I try to gravitate to a position where I (almost) make a living out of it.



> The custom furniture makers clients don't buy at IKEA or the Conran Shop. Nor do they buy at department stores. They buy 'art' from artists in wood from galleries and directly from the 'artiste', sic. This means adopting something of an artistic persona, exhibiting at art galleries, your work being seen at invitational exhibitions, etc., and generally getting your name about.



I agree completely. Getting noticed is the only way IMHO to give yourself the edge. There are probably several approaches and I guess different things work for different folks.



> In your area you should look for the website of Woodschool in the Borders, and the Scottish Society of Furniture Makers-- I think it's called that. The name Tim Stead comes readily to mind. Departed now, but the moniker Stonehenge Stead still sticks and you can see his influence in contemporary Scottish craft furniture. They had a group show during the last Edinburgh Festival opposite the Caley hotel in St. Johns Church at the end of Princes Street-- I'm not a church-goer so never remember church names.



Yep, in the few moments of coherent conversation with the Design lecturer in between naps Tims work always seemed to crop up. It's really not my cup of tea though.....



> Anyway, if 'art' furniture is not your style you'll need to service a need that people are willing to pay for. Kitchens and built in wardrobes are often less demanding stylistically but technically challenging, and this might be an area to explore. So too are items found at craft fairs and the like, but the work is much more mundane and less intellectually interesting if I can put it that way. That end of the market is more about economy of production and competing on price, but not entirely so.
> 
> I'd keep your part-time day job going until you find your true money making furniture niche, if there is such a thing for you, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a contented furniture making amateur without deadlines and creditors to worry about. Slainte.



I've no choice at the minute, but I am going to try to get a bit more creative with trying to get myself known a bit more locally. Might not come off but I'm determined to give it my best shot. Faint heart and all that....


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## Anonymous (25 Oct 2004)

Bob

I only know one person who makes kitchens and I can't remember the last ime he made any money as he is too nice and won't charge what they are worth.

I think this is the secret to business - charge what you can.

Good luck with your adventure

Cheers

Tony

Who makes furniture for fun, not profit


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## Guest (25 Oct 2004)

Having run my own business for thirty years (not woodworking) I agree that charging enough to pay the bills is the main reason so many fail.If you can work half your time to buy your bread and spend half doing what you enjoy you will be envied by a large number on this forum. Keep gaining skills and expertise but don't undersell yourself, you can always do a "special deal" if you build one in to the initial price.


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## Adam (25 Oct 2004)

Tony":va4q4wbp said:


> I think this is the secret to business - charge what you can.
> 
> Tony



Self-employed chappie I know had a "visit" from the bank. Bascially, they advised, if your clients eyeballs don't pop when you give them the first qoute, after they ask for some modifications to the intial design (which they invariably do!), raise the price between 25% - 100% depending on how brave you are. The guy telling him this was deadly serious, if they don't rupture an eyeball when they read the written qoute, take a seriously sharp intake of breath, wince, back away quickly, you are NOT charging enough. It simply doesn't matter about hourly rates, you charge clients at the price they are prepared to pay, not what you suggest.

I talked to him recently, and it really his working. He's managed to double some of his initial qoutes this way, when the client asks for change X, Y & Z he loads up the bill. Says it works great. Covers him for the jobs that go wrong/clients that won't pay etc. This is commercial work for companies, so isn't quite the same, many companies are lax on prices/qoutes etc - but it does make you think!

Adam


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## PitBull (25 Oct 2004)

One of the things *many* small businesses fail in the early days is due to lack of advertising - you have to tell people you are out there ready for them.

Once you've built up a good client base then you might be lucky and word of mouth might be enough, but until then, send out flyers, put ads in the local "XXXXshire Country Life" mag and in the local papers, school mags etc.

Sell your self, because nobody else will.


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## Anonymous (25 Oct 2004)

I have been self employed for 10 months now and have just reached a record £2000.00 in orders in ONE WEEK.
How ?? Well I dont advertise as such but just take a few items along to my local BOOTFAIR and give out business cards to those that require customised items. ie. Cabinets to fit in alcoves.
My "bread & butter" money comes from Made to Measure Radiator covers.
As from next year ALL Care homes NATIONWIDE must have all radiators covered by law and I am struggling to produce enough quick enough. 

I base my charges on 200% markup and keep getting told I am too cheap. Alot of my customers order just 1 at first because of this ( in case I do `cowboy` work but then they always seem to come back for the rest of the house to be done.

I think I have been lucky and found a Niche Market but I will never go back to work for someone else doing something I don`t like.

Koolwabbit


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## devonwoody (26 Oct 2004)

You lot are making me wish I was young again. I Was self employed for 32 years, but never had a paid holiday in that time.( Or many holidays, I was always too busy.)


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## Shady (26 Oct 2004)

Alf - sorry, didn't mean to go off on a rant: but it would be nice if all these hardworking people could actually keep more than 50% of what they actually earn...


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## cambournepete (26 Oct 2004)

koolwabbit":1zhdk8a1 said:


> My "bread & butter" money comes from Made to Measure Radiator covers.
> As from next year ALL Care homes NATIONWIDE must have all radiators covered by law and I am struggling to produce enough quick enough.



A lot off topic (sorry) but I've never understood how they don't stop a lot of the heat from the radiator doing anything useful. Don't you just heat the cover and not the room ?


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## Rattie (26 Oct 2004)

cambournepete":3ipuuje3 said:


> A lot off topic (sorry) but I've never understood how they don't stop a lot of the heat from the radiator doing anything useful. Don't you just heat the cover and not the room ?



Now I used to think that, but it's not really true of well designed covers. Most houshold radiators are pretty much purely convection heaters. Air in contact with them rises, and mixes with the room air, and cold air on the floor is drawn in to replace it. If a cover has a reasonable gap at the bottom and onother at the top, just below the shelf, then it doesn affect this too much.

You will end up with the transfer of heat into the room being slowed down a bit, so that it takes a little longer for the room to heat up from cold, but conversely you'll store some heat in the MDF which will keep the room from cooling down as fast once the heating goes off.

I myself don't much care for radiator covers, but the sense of putting them into care homes and I guess homes with toddlers is pretty obvious.

BTW if you want a radiator to radiate, you'd need to supply it with water just off the boil, and paint it matt black. Very goth :twisted: 

Martyn


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## Alf (26 Oct 2004)

Shady":1ascyf5k said:


> Alf - sorry, didn't mean to go off on a rant: but it would be nice if all these hardworking people could actually keep more than 50% of what they actually earn...


Yeah, I know. It's just a can o' worms, that's all.  

One suggestion I heard to get yourself known was to contact the local paper. Provide them with all the info they need for an article and they, poor saps, will probably write you a full page advert, er, article, for free, gratis and for nothing - with a picture in all probability. Makes a change from the latest WI cake sale I suppose. FWIW. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Shady (26 Oct 2004)

Good point on the papers Alf: I seem to remember that Kevin Ley also went around local 'bigger' stores, and got them to put some of his stuff in the window in return for a slice of the price - specifically to increase his visibility in the market. Note however, that even as a fairly successful and established maker, he's writing articles and books, which is presumably to help cover the bills, at least in part.


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## devonwoody (26 Oct 2004)

Thats what I said earlier in this thread , free publicity/exhibitionism.

Why not build a big wardrobe (rotten one) and let it fall off your roof rack and close the road for a day, you should get a free write up in the press or even worse. 
But make sure something happens every week.
Wife has quads is another good one.


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## dedee (26 Oct 2004)

devonwoody":3oved9ty said:


> Wife has quads is another good one.



If that happens there will be no time for woodwork and if there was you will be so tired that using any sort of edge tool or tailed apprentice could cause serious injury.

Andy
(who has contemplated sleeping in the workshop since twins arrived)


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## Anonymous (26 Oct 2004)

With a well designed Rad cover one would loose about 15% of heat but what has happenned in the past is old folks touching the rad and falling back with the shock resulting in broken bones. A rad I covered last week was at the top of a steep stairway 3in from the top bannister.

As far as I am concerned, I prefer to let a potential customer see the finished product rather than a photo and a few words. Also, I work from home and after trying advertising in the local press was inundated with callers as late as 9pm asking to see an example of my work. NEVER AGAIN !!!

Koolwabbit


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## Sgian Dubh (27 Oct 2004)

I find your analysis of your lecturers strength and weaknesses, well, er, bloody fascinating. It's hard to credit that such people teach. Of course I've not heard their side of the story either.

With timber drying faults I'd suggest taking in with you incontrovertible proof of the problem. The fork/prong test is that incontrovertible proof. Only an eejit would attempt an argument against such evidence, and any such argument can be shot down in flames. 

It's always possible to ask them to repeat the test on their bandsaw in front of yours and their eyes. There's nothing like making yourself look like the compleat pillock in front of a customer to get recompense, as long as you, the customer, knows exactly what you are talking about-- devour Hoadley and don't miss a trick in that book is the best advice I can offer-- it's the all-round users definitive text on the subject really.

If you're ambitious enough to make a living as a woodworker you'll get there through thick or thin. It'll mean hours of study, experimentation and getting it wrong, but if you persist it will work. You'll need an understanding wife, or you ought to be single, along with being single and/or bloody minded, or both, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Sgian Dubh (27 Oct 2004)

I think we know each other in a different forum Mike?

Yep. Bubbles are for bursting. It's all just hard-nosed business in the end, and furniture making for a living is just another way of being in business. Slainte.


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## johnelliott (27 Oct 2004)

Sgian Dubh":20jniewg said:


> If you're ambitious enough to make a living as a woodworker you'll get there through thick or thin.


I'm happy to agree with most of what you say, but cannot agree with the statement above. "Making a living" might mean different things to different people, but without the co-operation of the customers, ambition will NOT make you a living
John


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## Midnight (27 Oct 2004)

> I think we know each other in a different forum Mike?



Indeed...!!

your explanation of drawer runners is still obligatory reading...

I can more than understand the desire to go into cabinet-making for a living... building something to last, doing something you're both good at and enjoy... the sticky part always being to turn that skill into a marketable commodity...

I remember in one of your posts, you explained that to win a client over, both you (the maker) and the client have to understand that the transaction is about making / buying a piece of functional art, not merely a piece of furniture....


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## Sgian Dubh (27 Oct 2004)

> "without the co-operation of the customers, ambition will NOT make you a living"


True, John. Customers can be difficult to find, and when you've found them they can still end up being awkward.

Unfocused ambition alone probably won't make anyone a living. But I'm assuming someone that's ambitious to make a living of some sort in their chosen profession will do the best they can to properly analyse their strengths and weaknesses, do whatever they can to improve the weaknesses (such as training, advice, studying, etc.) find out what the customer wants, or find a gap of some sort in the market, and then provide a service designed to suit. 

It doesn't always work of course as the number of failed start-up businesses can testify. I don't have figures to hand as start-up business statistics are not my line, but I've heard anecdotally that many a successful businessman or woman has a false start or two in the background. Slainte.


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## Sgian Dubh (27 Oct 2004)

Okay Mike. Now I'm pretty sure of which forum we've exchanged a few words in before. Obligatory reading, huh? Nah. More like verbal diarrheoa on my part, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## tx2man (28 Oct 2004)

Hey DW,

you're not Max Clifford in disguise, are you? :shock:  

TX


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## SimonA (28 Oct 2004)

I don't suppose either of you would care to share with us the WWW address of this other forum?

SimonA


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## Alf (28 Oct 2004)

I'm guessing FWW's Knots forum. At least I've seen both Mike and Richard on there frequently.

Cheers, Alf


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## mudman (28 Oct 2004)

Alf":34v54lje said:


> I'm guessing FWW's Knots forum.



Which my work's filtering software considers to be unsuitable. :evil: 
Perhaps it thinks the 'knots' reference is to some sort of BDSM?


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## Sgian Dubh (28 Oct 2004)

Alf":2j0kfzho said:


> I'm guessing FWW's Knots forum. At least I've seen both Mike and Richard on there frequently.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



That's the one I think Alf. Slainte.


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## Midnight (28 Oct 2004)

> More like verbal diarrheoa on my part, ha, ha. Slainte.



well.....maybe for an auld hand like yersel who's proficient at hand cutting double blind twisted dovetails, blindfolded, using nothing more than false teeth... but to a rookie like me.... trust me.. I need all the help I can get...


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## norman (1 Nov 2004)

Are there any Antique Furniture Restorer’s among our membership?




Hi to you all

I had hoped to find some other antique furniture restorer `s amongst the members of this Forum.

It would seem, that what has been discussed in another thread, that there is a niche to be had if this is to your taste and style of work. I still get regular work from insurance companies for items that have been damaged on removal etc, they do not seem to have many of us restorer `s on their books so offer top money with almost no quibbles just as long as it is under the cost of replacement.
As I am getting on a bit now, and have been retired for many years. This is okay as somthing to do but I really do not want to do the amount that is on offer and often say no or quote a very long waiting time, but they still keep coming back to me.
It would appear that anyone who has an interest could contract the insurance companies and offer their services. It would appear from my experience that they would be pleased to have some alternatives on their books.
Regards
Norman


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## tx2man (2 Nov 2004)

Hi Norman,

That's very kind of you to make this known to all,
if you could just remind me in five years time, i would
have had enough practice to have the slightest idea
what i was doing.  

TX

ps What range of pieces do you get?


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## norman (2 Nov 2004)

Hi TX

anything from a small box---breakfront bookcase. if its made of wood and antique it can come in the door only thing I don`t do is upholstery. again chairs are sometime ok, but not full upholstery not my side of trade.

this gives you a wide range to work on and you will never ever be doing the same thing again so no chance to get bored with the work.
you also get to do all the things that you can do from start to finish.

it can be great fun.

norman


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## tx2man (3 Nov 2004)

Hi Norman,

just wondering, does it get a bit nerve racking if the
piece is of great value?
Also, was this always your trade, or something that 
grew out of a hobby?

TX


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## norman (3 Nov 2004)

TX

started like you all as hobby, like most could make things had trouble with the finish. helped a chap with some furniture into a furniture van and go talking, as you do! he told me that he had just lost his helper and was short handed so I offered to help if he would show me how to finish. 5 yrs later when he retired i went self employed 1970 been at it ever since.
yes it can pull you up short if you start to wory about what its worth. but after a time it`s not something you think about (except it helps with the job price)if it`s worth a lot then the repair cost % is not such a shock and well worth repairing to the customer. 

regards
norman


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## Sgian Dubh (3 Nov 2004)

I'll help out when I can Mike if I know a (the ) solution to a question.

I just need the time, will and energy to respond, and it's not always easy to find all three of those at the same time, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## tim (5 Nov 2004)

Just picked up this thread. I was in a similar position to bob (who started this post) of working 3 days a week to cover the biz development and fund living (in reality existing). I have just stopped doing that simply because it was never going to get off the ground. I was so bored by the other work and tired that the remaining two days were spent recovering not putting all the energy into developing the business.

So I worked out my survival income and remortgaged the house to cover that for a year (about 15k) and took out a small business loan to cover capital invstement - that way I don't have to swallow all the hit for a new piece of machinery in one job and make no money. I wrote a 5 year plan with the first year detailed and I reckon on a breakeven point in year 3. I don't intend to live off my survival income fund continuously for a year but its there if I need it. If i get work in then I use that to pay my wage. It means that I can start to properly manage my pricing rather than drop to whatever the customer will be willing to pay just to cover my costs.

I know that not everyone will be able to remortgage but there are a lot of funds and grants out there plus get a good accountant - he will save you a fortune - did you know you can offset tax against earlier years where you earned more?

I just had a blinding flash that what I was doing was perpetuating a hobby. Now I am in business doing something I love. They are not the same. I know its still going to be very tough indeed but I think for the first time I've given myself the best chance in succeeding. If it doesn't work out I at least know I gave it my best rather than hedging my bets. As an old boss of mine used to say: "Its time to sh*t or get off the pot!"

Cheers

T


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## Chris Knight (5 Nov 2004)

Tim,

Welcome to the forum. You are a brave man - I wish you every success.

It will be great to hear how you progress - what sort of stuff are you making and for whom?


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## tim (5 Nov 2004)

Don't scare me - :shock: doesn't everyone who makes the leap go through the same?

Making a combination of things - some freestanding pieces which I find challenging, interesting and not particularly profitable and some built in work which I find less challenging but actually enjoy making 'useful' stuff and its much more profitable. I'd like to move away from built in over time because I'd rather not have work on site but needs must. I've done a couple of commercial projects for some shops as well.

The biggest challenge is finding the customers rather than the usual starting point of 'will you make me something.... how much!!!!!....but I can get that in Ikea for..........(by this point I have stopped listening). No longer do I explain that its one off work not one of a million long run and also that I am neither based in Malaysia nor 9 years old. :roll: 

Thanks for the welcome. I'm pulling together a website - will look forward to your opinions and criticism.

Cheers

T


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## woodshavings (5 Nov 2004)

Hi Tim, great that you have joined the Forum  - Look forward to seeing your website - Good luck with your venture - there is no doubt that a realistic business plan gives you the best shot.
John


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## houtslager (7 Nov 2004)

welcome Bob to the nuthouse.Just caught up here from flying back from a warm Florida  and boy is it cold in Amsterdam now 
Ok back to the topic, of going it alone.
I started in a simerler way to Norman, but after so many years restoring and refinishing antiques and hierloom furniture - I wanted to make future antique furniture.Now after 15 years in three countries I have come to the conclusion that people in general Do NOT want to pay the COST of handmade furniture in a quality timber! They want to pay peanuts - in return I say ask a monkey to make it  .
The last 71/2 years here in Amsterdam I have had to work on site doing built ins and wooden flooring in order to meet the bills :? and I am now working on my LAST piece. It is meant for TOOLS 2004, but with a delayed return here I do not think I can finish it to the required standerd of the show.  But thats another story.Back to topic - if you can hack the 2 job scenario one for money 2nd for the love and sanity DO IT !
I as a professional designer/maker have rarely made a good profit [ over a whole year] on the occasional pieces I have managed to turn a small profit, but the year ! no ! I have , like many other D/Mkers got into debt.How , machines/tools/toys cost a LOT of money, then there is the materials too and then the workshop and finally rates/taxes and if married and with kids - FORGET IT - as others have said think PS 10 per 1000 and double ALL COSTS to EVEN break even. Business no matter in what market is HARD and does not suffer fools gladly.
I wish you all the best - but be warned IT WILL BE DIFFICULT !

all the best from a cold HS in Amsterdam


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## johnelliott (7 Nov 2004)

The marvellous thing about doing built-in furniture, be it kitchens, wardrobes, home offices whatever, is that the building-in part can't be made in China or Eastern Europe and then imported here to be sold in specialist retailers. It has to be done on the spot. Either by the home owner or by someone that he/she pays to do the work.
If a woodworker can get enough business doing build-ins then he most certainly can make money, and do a bit of woodwork in the process. Having developed a relationship with a customer he might even be able to sell them a free-standing piece!
I would advise anyone starting in woodwork as a business to concentrate on build ins to start with, and take it from there.
Most of the houses that I have been in doing kitchen stuff have had some scope for built-in storage, people have so much stuff these days and the storage in many houses, especially the newer ones, is inadequate.
My latest kitchen customer has asked me to quote for redoing an entire wall of their bedroom. I'm not sure I fancy it due to the doors in bedrooms being bigger than in kitchens, but I might give it a go. I've asked them to draw me a sketch of what they want, so I'll quote a little bit high and see what happens
John


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## Keith Smith (7 Nov 2004)

I had thought that a lot of the problems I have were because I live out in the wilds of Shropshire and people round here won't pay for hand made pieces. I did think that if I moved into a city I would get more work but from reading this thread looks like I am wrong.

And to make any money you not only have to be good, you also have to be quick; and that often means big outlay on tools (Paslode for instance) and plenty of compromises.

Keith


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## johnelliott (7 Nov 2004)

KeithS":17pyh9hg said:


> And to make any money you not only have to be good, you also have to be quick; and that often means big outlay on tools (Paslode for instance) and plenty of compromises.



You don't necessarily need to be 'good' by which I asume you mean talented, or good with your hands, I am neither of these. Quick, yes, definitely. The price of some of the tools which I use on site, e.g Fein Multimaster, Festool saw and guide, etc, seems trivial compared with the time they save. 
I think an important part of doing built-in stuff is knowing when it is good enough. Customers will often assume that what you've done is correct and what they should be expecting, especially if you do it with a confident and professional attitude. 
John


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## Keith Smith (8 Nov 2004)

John Elliott wrote



> You don't necessarily need to be 'good' by which I asume you mean talented, or good with your hands, I am neither of these



Hmmm, John, somehow I find that hard to believe. 

It is all relative I know, and we can all find someone who is far more skillful than ourselves; I can anyway.

And I do agree that a confident approach with customers is vital.

Keith


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## dedee (8 Nov 2004)

To all those people who do make a living from woodwork. What do you do for a hobby?

Andy (in slightly cynical mode)


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## norman (8 Nov 2004)

Hi Andy

in my case its always been both. now i have more time free i`m trying to make my hierloom furniture and also giving some tips to no 3 son who is showing some interest as a hobby. would be nice to know that my toys will still be played with within the family.

norman


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2004)

john wrote



> I'll quote a little bit high and see what happens



and hope that your customer doesn't know about this forum 

Regards

Roy


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## Sgian Dubh (8 Nov 2004)

Well, rugby of course Andy. I play it--still, well just about. I watch it and devour it. Tri-Nations, Super Twelve, Currie Cup, Celtic League, Zurich Premiership, Heineken Cup, French Championshipship, and most importantly of all, The Six Nations and The World Cup.

It's all encompassing and I don't even hang a shelf at weekends or nights for the nagging queen, ha, ha-- unless I really have to.

Mind you, she reciprocates by refusing to show me how to use a computer when she's not working, and that's what she's been doing for years. 

It's far too boring to take your work home at the weekend. You need a break from what stresses you out during the week, and for me weekends mean rugby, not furniture making. Slainte.


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## Anonymous (3 Dec 2006)

Like the sad *** that I am I have been surfing round old threads on a Sunday morning and have come across this really interesting one from a couple of years ago (before I got involved).

I have to say that I have found most of the posts depressingly pessimistic as regards making a living out of woodworking. I set up as a cabinetmaker 18 months ago and while I have not yet got to the point where I'm drawing a really good salary (fortunately my wife does) I have not found any difficulty in filling my order book months in advance with interesting and profitable work.

I started out with the intention of concentrating on individual freestanding pieces of furniture, but like many before me have been shunted in the direction of kitchens and fitted furniture. For some reason the perceived value of these in the public's eye is far greater than that of individual pieces.

My advice to anyone thinking of setting up professionally would be as follows;


1. Even before you start out make yourself a website using a program such as Web Plus (£40 at PC World last time I looked) 

2. Take out a semi-display ad in Yellow Pages ('Cabinet Makers' is a good category)and time your start-up to coincide with the publication of the next book. Highlight your website address in the ad. Also sign up with Yell.com.

3. Keep your overheads LOW!!!! If you can work from home - great. If you need to rent a workshop make it as cheap as possible - don't worry about how it looks, or having a showroom - nearly all your business will come from you visiting potential clients at home. The only thing I would make sure of is that you have 3-phase power. This makes buying second hand machinery *much* cheaper.

4. The going rate for a site joiner is around £150 per day. For a kitchen fitter around £200. Their overheads are a van and a bunch of tools. You need to charge MORE than this because you also have a workshop which is costing you money even when you out on site or quoting for a job. £30 an hour would be a starting point! The work is out there - you just have to attract it - hence my emphasis on marketing even before you start out.

I could go on and on...


... however, Sunday is my one day off a week, SWMBO is at work, and if I haven't installed new skirtings and architraves in the hall by the time she gets home she'll have my plums on a skewer!

My one day off...


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## Anonymous (3 Dec 2006)

I forgot one thing...

If you are going to be fitting furniture then buy yourself a Fein Multimaster now - without delay. 

Hang the expense, it will pay for itself on the first job!


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## Anonymous (3 Dec 2006)

Big Dunk":3lu9vz47 said:


> If you don't have any photos of work you have done then 'borrow' some! :lol:



Big Dunc i am truely disappointed, I would be so ****** off if someone borrowed my work and pretended it was their work.

The big kitchen companies would have you in the courts as quick as possible.


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## JFC (3 Dec 2006)

I think id be pretty annoyed if someone was showing my work as their own aswell . As for what market to aim at don't forget replacement windows and doors , most of the bigger companies just want to replace the whole thing but if you offer a new opener at a fraction of the cost your name will get around very fast . Also matching old mouldings is a nice earner , almost every victorian house has a bit of skirting board missing or the like that they cant get hold of .


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## Anonymous (3 Dec 2006)

You're quite right, Senior. 

What was meant light heartedly this morning doesn't look so clever now.

Duely admonished.

Dunk


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## Dave S (3 Dec 2006)

Big Dunk":2e5cmv8t said:


> 1. Even before you start out make yourself a website using a program such as Web Plus (£40 at PC World last time I looked)



I disagree. A text editor/Web Plus/Dreamweaver, will no more make a web designer out of furniture maker than a hardpoint saw/cheap Chinese import/Wadkin will make a furniture maker out of a web designer. 

I find it surprising when someone has worked hard and learnt to make good quality furniture (for example) and then chooses to showcase it on what it the equivalent of a flat-pack from Argos. 

Of course, you are right that minimising costs is important when starting out. But whilst cash might be in short supply, time is often not. What I would do is try to find a local web designer who needs the services of someone skilled with wood and do a deal.

IMO, good craftsmanship deserves to be showcased well. More to the point, as a potential customer, I am put off companies with poor quality websites. I have to say, Dunc, that I admire your work, but I don't think your own website comes close to doing it justice. 

All that said, you are the one successfully making a living from making furniture. To give some context to my thoughts, working with wood is a hobby for me, and it's IT/e-commerce that pays the bills.

cheers
David


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## Scrums (3 Dec 2006)

Thanks dunk for getting this thread going again - or I'd never have noticed it.

You've edited your post so I can't see your grave misdemeanour, though I don't think you were talking so much about plagiarising peoples work, rather using a certain amount of licence to show what your business is capable of.

I opened a small 'gallery' area in my workshop a couple of months ago, and I've found life in professional woodworking a very steep learning curve. I too thought I could knock out a few examples of nice furniture and use them to demonstrate my skills and type of design and the commisions woul slowly come in based on that. But it ain't working.

The 'bits and pieces', ie: Turned bowls, clocks and giftware are moving slowly, but as yet no furniture. In the New Year I shall have to have a rethink and get some web design done, some advertising and all that. I have a web site but it's not cutting it for me, I had the Yell.com guy in a couple of weeks back but their charges are frightening.

On a final note - I know a Furniture maker who faced with having to expand his business and take on a couple more bench joiners to cope decided to cut out altogether - now all he does is resell machinery from bankrupt furniture makers and joinery firms! - and he's doing well.

Chris.


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## gardenshed (3 Dec 2006)

senior":2h16ys9l said:


> Big Dunk":2h16ys9l said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't have any photos of work you have done then 'borrow' some! :lol:
> ...



And I now have no idea if the photo's on Big Dunk's web site are borrowed or ........................... :?:


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## Losos (3 Dec 2006)

I would say Duncan was being light hearted. In the sales & marketing game big corporations do much worse :wink: 

If you're just starting out you need something to show people. If they ask "Did you make that" you have to reply honestly.

Still, what do I know, I chucked the day job long ago


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