# Dust extraction



## Robbo60 (3 Dec 2020)

I have been on the forum for a couple of months and read some really interesting stuff about extraction but still not sure about blast gates, cyclones, shop vacs etc. I have a small workshop, 3m X 3.6M (2/3 of what was my garage) I have a mitre saw at one side, a mobile bench and mobile table saw mostly at other side. I occasionally use a palm router, circular saw, jig saw, orbital sander. Can anyone point me to a design of an extraction system for such a set up please? What type of suction?
Thanks in advance


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## Doug B (3 Dec 2020)

Realistically in such a small place with the tools you have I would just use a vac HPLV with a cyclone on some sort of mobile base which could be moved to the tool in use when needed.
My own shop isn’t a great deal bigger than yours & when I first started off put 2 lots of ducting in one for LPHV & one for HPLV with blast gates. What I soon realised was not only did this take up a lot room in relation to the space I had, but also with a small workshop flexibility is key & quite often when working on bigger projects the outlets were in the wrong location for the job in hand.


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## Robbo60 (3 Dec 2020)

Thanks Doug but what is HPLV and LPHV


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## smackie (3 Dec 2020)

What @Doug B said - you’d be fine with a good quality mobile extractor. HPLV is High Pressure, Low Volume and LPHV is Low Pressure, High Volume. This is a good intro article about the differences.

A guide to dust extraction by member siggy_7

Good dust extraction makes a huge difference. It’s one of the reasons I ended up using Festool stuff as I work in a _very_ small space and excellent dust/chip extraction makes working with saws, routers and sanders far more pleasant.


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## Bigbadmarky (3 Dec 2020)

I have a stationary shop vac with cyclone and some ducting under one of my benches ( I have a single car garage workshop ~5m x 3m). I have fixed extraction to my sliding mitre saw and a small 'kick' where I sweep all my man glitter. I also have an open port where I can connect hoses and such. My vac is a little Titan 16l jobbie from Screwfix and the cyclone is a cheap one from ebay. I use 68mm drain pipe for the ducting and made some blast gates out of 12mm mdf. The drain pipe isn't ideal as I do get static build up from time to time but I've not exploded yet! If you want any pics let me know. 
Dust extraction is a great addition to the garage and I wouldn't be without it but, to be honest, my current set up is a bit limiting. I need to add dust collection to my router table but I don't really have the capacity in its current configuration. I need to have a rethink. 

Have a think about how you use your space and what dust collection system would work best for you. I try and keep all my dusty activities around the bench with the ducting and keep finishing and less dusty jobs to the other side of the garage.


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## Robbo60 (3 Dec 2020)

Thanks again Doug. Read the article and think I might do both. Have a LPHV for my mitre was (which doesn't move) and some ducting and hose for my table saw (which is roughly in the same place when in use but moved to the side when not) Haven't decided on cyclone yet. need to read that article
Then buy a shop vac for the router/sander etc.
Every day is a school day - for me, at least


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## DBT85 (5 Dec 2020)

Robbo60 said:


> Thanks again Doug. Read the article and think I might do both. Have a LPHV for my mitre was (which doesn't move) and some ducting and hose for my table saw (which is roughly in the same place when in use but moved to the side when not) Haven't decided on cyclone yet. need to read that article
> Then buy a shop vac for the router/sander etc.
> Every day is a school day - for me, at least


What size is the duct going to your mitre saw? LPHV is pants if you drop down much below 75mm and really wants to be 100mm at least.


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## Blackswanwood (5 Dec 2020)

I have found this to be a really good video on dust collection

watch


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## Robbo60 (7 Dec 2020)

DBT85 said:


> What size is the duct going to your mitre saw? LPHV is pants if you drop down much below 75mm and really wants to be 100mm at least.


It's only 40mm. I've got an old Dyson attached to it which does OK but there's still lots of dust from around the blade


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## DBT85 (7 Dec 2020)

Robbo60 said:


> It's only 40mm. I've got an old Dyson attached to it which does OK but there's still lots of dust from around the blade


Ahh OK. Dyson is HPLV. 

Mitre saws are often bad for DX but I don't think it helps that often they are connected to HPLV, so all the stray bits don't get scooped up. Mostly because everyone just used the built in dust port which is small and useless for LPHV.


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## Robbo60 (8 Dec 2020)

Is there anything after market to pick up the saw dust from the back of the blade?


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## DBT85 (8 Dec 2020)

Robbo60 said:


> Is there anything after market to pick up the saw dust from the back of the blade?


Not really. If you want to improve it it's either get a saw with better collection (which still is often bot great) or try to make something that can help. There are lots of attempts online with varying degrees of success.


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## Fanous (17 Dec 2020)

Not to steal the thunder, but...

I already have a shop vac with cyclone, it's great for table saw, and other small stuff. I'm gonna buy the axminster jointer/thicknesser they have for a grand. Now I want to get chip extractor and hook up a bigger cyclone to it. Axminster has everything I need, but it would end up a bit pricey... Extractor Cyclone planner and probably two of those hoses and it's nearly as expensive as the big machine!!! (£627) And I'm trying to find a cheaper solution, if there is any? Aiming for airflow 1,000 m³/hr

Suggestion?

Edit: I should add - wanted the motor wall mounted, as I have a high ceiling shop, small footprint shop. Have the barrel and cyclone on ground under the motor.


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## DBT85 (17 Dec 2020)

You'd not get 1000m3 on that as soon as you put a hose on it. I'd really love to have all the stuff to measure this stuff as frankly the information given out by manufacturers is bordering on fraudulent.

The 3hp motor on mine (one of the ridiculously large 2 bag 2 filter ones) could be mounted to a wall easily enough and most are the same. So one option is getting a used unit and nailing it up yourself rather than buying one "designed" for it at such a high price.


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## Terrytpot (18 Dec 2020)

Fanous said:


> two of those hoses and it's ...expensive ...I'm trying to find a cheaper solution, if there is any?


 Axi currently asking £57 for 2m of 100mm  try £42 for 5m heavy duty inc postage 100mm @ these guys:
Heavy Duty Blue Spiral 
got some myself this week and very happy with it


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## Fanous (18 Dec 2020)

DBT85 said:


> You'd not get 1000m3 on that as soon as you put a hose on it. I'd really love to have all the stuff to measure this stuff as frankly the information given out by manufacturers is bordering on fraudulent.
> 
> The 3hp motor on mine (one of the ridiculously large 2 bag 2 filter ones) could be mounted to a wall easily enough and most are the same. So one option is getting a used unit and nailing it up yourself rather than buying one "designed" for it at such a high price.



Thanks for the note. I was a bit sceptical about the flow rate on 1HP motor, where others were having lower flowrate with 1HP motor... Good suggestion to look for 2nd hand. don't know why I haven't checked it already.


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## Fanous (18 Dec 2020)

Thanks for the tip. Price to value is now MUCH BETTER for the hose!!!


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## Inspector (18 Dec 2020)

Fanous, DBT85 is correct. Under optimum conditions the most air you can pull through a 100mm/4" pipe by any DC, even a 5 hp one, is 680 cubic meters per hour/400CFM. It is a limit of the diameter. A one hp dc will never pull that and with a cyclone like the one linked you will add about 3 inches of static pressure loss to it. That would be about half of what it could pull right off the bat. Adding hoses, ductwork and fittings will take away even more. Read Bill Pentz's site and you'll understand. Dust Collection Research - Home If you want to put a cyclone on a DC and get good flow you need a 3HP one and ducts of 150mm/6". Ducts of 150mm/6" can flow close to 2040 cubic meters per hour/1200CFM.

Pete


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## DBT85 (18 Dec 2020)

With all that said, a 1hp machine on 4" duct is still going to be better than a Shopvac, provided you aren't trying to squeeze it through a 50mm port on 4m of bendy hose.

As for the price. I won an unused but "used" 3hp 2 bag jobbie for £200. It needs a proper filter on it rather than those daft bags, but for now I use my mask.

In an ideal world we'd all have 5hp 200mm systems ducted in. Since we don't live there we have to make use of what we can as best we can, while being aware of what the limitations are.


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## sed9888 (18 Dec 2020)

This is my mobile extractor it all works beautifully and can be moved around or in my case the hose is long enough to reach just about everywhere


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## Keith 66 (18 Dec 2020)

I just finished installing extraction in my workshop, this is for laser cutter & welding fumes. Centrifugal fan off ebay that says 1200 m3 per hr, I decided on 150mm pipe as there was room for it & it drops the velocity & noise by a large amount, result is a very quiet system that works really well, So well that if the workshop door is open less than 4" the draw sucks it shut. Noise level is such that 15ft away from the outlet on the pavement you can barely hear it.


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## TRITON (18 Dec 2020)

> What size is the duct going to your mitre saw? LPHV is pants if you drop down much below 75mm and really wants to be 100mm at least.



Once you get up to 200mm you really need keep an eye on the cat.


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## Fanous (18 Dec 2020)

Thanks for the responses!

I was working with the assumption that the jointer has 100mm dust outlet, so keeping things 100mm seemed like a good idea. I wonder if I go with the suggested 150mm piping, then there is going to be the choke at the machine down to 100mm, if it still going to be beneficial..?

I'd want those 1 microne filters. I would imagine they would last fairly long if cyclone also fitted? I plan to really only use it on the jointer/thicknesser, so I'm hoping the shavings would be decent size, cloging the filter a bit less then, let's say, MDF on a table saw..?

Did anyone found any decent value (performance to £££) if I was to buy a new system? Blower and filters.


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## DBT85 (18 Dec 2020)

If the machines are limited in outlets then you are similarly limited and have to work around it. On a TS its easy enough to open the hole up on the cabinet and/or use a 100mm on the back and something substantial over the guard rather than the piddly options that usually come with them. This is obviously less easy to modify on things like a P/T. All you can do is do what you can to reduce losses as much as possible. Short runs, limited tight bends, limited amount of flex.


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## Fanous (18 Dec 2020)

Just spent quite a bit of time on ebay. Majority of the blowers are 1HP which I get the feeling is not enough. 2HP usually still coming with 100mm port, still. 3HP seems rare, and often 3 phase, which I don't have. 

I'm getting lost in it all, might just bite the bullet and go with this puppy. It seems to have it all, 2HP, 125mm port, cyclone, good filter. It's just pricey, and not meant to be on the wall. But maybe I would find the space for it on the ground. But damn! ...it's a lot of ££ for the planer and this.


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## DBT85 (18 Dec 2020)

3hp single phase is available, its just finding one used if that's what you want. Mine has clearly just been fitted with the exact same blower as the 1hp models so its got some headroom to use if I want to make an impeller. 

Sadly this stuff is expensive! A 500x1000mm fine filter is listed at something like £200, a larger cyclone is even more. But it should be a cost that is largely a one time thing.


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## MikeK (18 Dec 2020)

Fanous said:


> Just spent quite a bit of time on ebay. Majority of the blowers are 1HP which I get the feeling is not enough. 2HP usually still coming with 100mm port, still. 3HP seems rare, and often 3 phase, which I don't have.



We have 3-phase as standard in our houses, but you might have some success if you consider adding a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) to provide the 3-phase output from your 230V single phase input. I picked one at random, but here is a 4.4kW VFD:






4.4 kW VFD Drive Inverter, 220V AC Single-Phase Variable Frequency Drive Inverter, Walfront VFD Speed Controller Inverter for 3-Phase Motor: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools


Shop 4.4 kW VFD Drive Inverter, 220V AC Single-Phase Variable Frequency Drive Inverter, Walfront VFD Speed Controller Inverter for 3-Phase Motor. Free delivery on eligible orders of £20 or more.



www.amazon.co.uk









Fanous said:


> I'm getting lost in it all, might just bite the bullet and go with this puppy. It seems to have it all, 2HP, 125mm port, cyclone, good filter. It's just pricey, and not meant to be on the wall. But maybe I would find the space for it on the ground. But damn! ...it's a lot of ££ for the planer and this.



Maybe it's me, but the airflow for the inlet to the cyclone appears to be the opposite of the airflow to the filters. Everything I've read suggests the inlet and outlet airflow should match the vortex direction of rotation in the cyclone. According to the photos, the rotation of the vortex reverses direction somewhere in the cyclone.


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## Inspector (19 Dec 2020)

Just to add a consideration to what Mike said about the VFD. You can increase the frequency of the current to 60 hertz like we have from the 50 hertz you have and gain almost 20% increase in airflow providing the ducting is large enough to handle it.
Pete


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## tradesman (19 Dec 2020)

ok so my shop 3.3x3.3 has a 100mm extractor - whats the best plan to offer outlets for machines- thinking of running it across the high ceiling and havinga couple of drop downs that I can add to various machines? what adaptors should i use 100mm to 50mm for example?

any good places to shop for these


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## Fanous (19 Dec 2020)

Thanks for the comments, appreciate the help.

I have time to think about this, as both the jointer, and extractor are still out of stock. I was in the store recently, they reckon it might be in stock for January. It's true it's one time cost, and it would probably hold good value if I was to sell. So that gives me some comfort. Warranty is also a benefit of sorts.

I've heard about VFD's, but didn't really know what they were. You learn something every day, thanks for that. It could work as a package with used 3 phaseblower, and the VFD as an on-cost, and still possibly be cheaper than the new one. But I would likely need to spend another £200 on the good filter. That would just about make it even, or slightly cheaper then new solution.

*One last question* about the air flow... Lets say I buy the new stuff, which is capable of 2x100mm or 1x125mm at the cyclone inlet. From previous comments, there is a significant benefit of bigger diameter. So I would run single hose of 125mm diameter all the way to the jointer, where I would have to choke it down to 100mm. I've studied the pictures, I won't be able to open it up more. Also due to the nature of the jointer, where the ducting is flipped left to right depending on the mode you have set up, I would be running flex hose. So I know that will kill performance once more. So maybe that on it's own is better larger. And the question: is this choke at the jointer going to kill the performance to a degree, where it's going to be as bad as having full run in 100mm? Or is there still going to be a benefit to the 125mm pipe?


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## Misterdog (19 Dec 2020)

Slightly off topic but I have an Axminster 2 bag extractor. The steel used is as thick as a soup can and 'I think' greatly contributes to the noise, has anyone applied say car noise deadening material with any good effect ?


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## Grantx (12 Apr 2021)

How is the makita working out for you? I'm currently trying to source a good shopvac (Already have the cyclone and drum). 



sed9888 said:


> This is my mobile extractor it all works beautifully and can be moved around or in my case the hose is long enough to reach just about everywhere


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## Spectric (12 Apr 2021)

Be careful in a small workshop otherwise you will end up with all extraction and no room for anything to make dust!


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## sed9888 (19 Apr 2021)

Grantx said:


> How is the makita working out for you? I'm currently trying to source a good shopvac (Already have the cyclone and drum).


Hi im sorry if this is late I've been poorly the vac in question works very well and the cyclone, I would recommend both 
Regards 
Peter


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