# looking for a chisel set, what should i get



## tobytools (30 Jul 2013)

I'm in the market for new gear, I have a huge amount of old chisels from various makers, but am looking to get a quality few, I've been told that a few good quality ones is my best bet. Such as, 3mm, 6mm, 19mm and 25mm.
Any opinions or help would be great, 
Toby


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## longinthetooth (30 Jul 2013)

Old is often by far the best with chisels. Don't let shopping hunger overtake that fact.


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## Hardwood66 (30 Jul 2013)

How much are you looking to spend


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## tobytools (30 Jul 2013)

longinthetooth":14504e07 said:


> Old is often by far the best with chisels. Don't let shopping hunger overtake that fact.


I do totally agree. They are superior in most ways many I should just clean them up and change there broken ugly handles and put them to work, im by no means a rich man but those LN are winking at me


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## AndyT (30 Jul 2013)

Are you the same Toby who buys up mixed lots of old tools? You must have had dozens of good chisels by now!

Most of mine are old and made in Sheffield. The ones I bought new have plastic handles; the old ones have wooden handles. There is no need to re-handle any of them.

















If you only have matched sets it's harder to find the chisel you want.


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## Reggie (30 Jul 2013)

I will 2nd (or 3rd) getting old chisels, as long as they're not curved then they should be just fine. I've also read that it's not entirely that important to spend money on quality brands if buying new either, paul sellers is happy using a £7.95 set from aldi.

I get the feeling that with a chisel, it's not so much about who made it and more about who's using it and how well they can keep it sharpened.


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## woodbrains (30 Jul 2013)

Reggie":1yq1l5g0 said:


> paul sellers is happy using a £7.95 set from aldi.



I'll bet he's not!

Mike.


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## AndyT (30 Jul 2013)

woodbrains":1wm1qjpl said:


> Reggie":1wm1qjpl said:
> 
> 
> > paul sellers is happy using a £7.95 set from aldi.
> ...



http://paulsellers.com/2011/03/ally-pally-show-questions/ !!


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## Graham Orm (30 Jul 2013)

I enjoy a spot of fishing when work/wife/workshop allows. There's a name for fishermen who obsessively buy new gear in the hope of catching that elusive whopper.... 'Tackle tart' .
I think we all have some tackle tart in us, especially when it comes to a shiny new set of something or other. I bet if any one of the members of this forum won the lottery Lie Nielsen would be the first stop for a brand new everything that they sell! I'm sure I would!


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## fluffflinger (30 Jul 2013)

Set of old Blue Handled Stanley 5002 or better still Black Handled 5001 from ebay or a boot sale. They were made of good steel and are cheap and plentiful. I keep saying I'll get something better I actually am very happy with my lot. Like Andy I also have quite a few older trays for various makes.

I'll bet if you buy a set whatever else you purchase later you'll hang on to them. Great for re-grinding to different profiles etc.


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## tobytools (30 Jul 2013)

AndyT":2hd8iifx said:


> Are you the same Toby who buys up mixed lots of old tools? You must have had dozens of good chisels by now!
> 
> Most of mine are old and made in Sheffield. The ones I bought new have plastic handles; the old ones have wooden handles. There is no need to re-handle any of them.
> 
> ...



Hi, Andy.
I'm the same Toby that used to buy job lots of old tools, but sort of lost way and collected more than any thing. Some one told be it better Otto have a few top quality tools than shed loads of dung. So im selling all my rubbish and keeping the best and investing in top tools. I have some great chisels with loads of life that are flat and ready. Some handles are shot tho, but im a tackle tart I like the London pattern handles. But uts nit important I guess. I now have a coupe LN both spoke shaves and a Veritas shoulder plane and a super tunes no6. 
On a topic change I start a restoration of fine wood work course in Sep. Next year im going my joinery course so want to be ready


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## Mr_P (30 Jul 2013)

IT'S ONLY A CHISEL

What will a shiny new expensive one do that an old one won't ? 

Never used a new chisel so can't really comment but unless they sharpen themselves and keep an edge for an eternity think I'll find better things to spend my meagre budget on.


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## tobytools (30 Jul 2013)

Hardwood66":2ictd81a said:


> How much are you looking to spend



not much more than a set of LN but, I'll hang tight for a but and sort sone of my old one out


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## undergroundhunter (30 Jul 2013)

I have a set to Nerex Premium chisels from ClassicHandtools.co.uk, and I think they are fantastic. There was a bit of a faze on here about a year ago which is when I bought them along with 5 metric mortice chisels (which I now regret as I tend to work in old money despite being only 24). They hold their edge well and were easy to prep, the only thing I have done out of the ordinary is wax the handles. I would recommend Narex to anyone. Why do you need a set? I only really use 6mm, 12mm and 25mm the other just stay in their box. If I were doing it again I would buy them individually as I needed them.

Matt


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## tobytools (30 Jul 2013)

undergroundhunter":nk8dkbdx said:


> I have a set to Nerex Premium chisels from ClassicHandtools.co.uk, and I think they are fantastic. There was a bit of a faze on here about a year ago which is when I bought them along with 5 metric mortice chisels (which I now regret as I tend to work in old money despite being only 24). They hold their edge well and were easy to prep, the only thing I have done out of the ordinary is wax the handles. I would recommend Narex to anyone. Why do you need a set? I only really use 6mm, 12mm and 25mm the other just stay in their box. If I were doing it again I would buy them individually as I needed them.
> 
> Matt


I've seen them never used ot heard anyone talk about their performance, alot of people say a set is unnecessary and that to buy as needed, as I've said earlier I will just go through my load of chisels and select a few keeper and sell the rest. I have to say even tho a few in the set are used ut nice to have the set 
I'm gona check those that mentioned out, thanks for the advice


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## grandad211 (30 Jul 2013)

I bought some MHG chisels from Dick in Germany recently, very pleased with them, consistent quality. I have a set of old splitproof Marples and a set of recently acquired Footprint mortice chisels that are old but hold there edge and sharpen up well.


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## woodbrains (30 Jul 2013)

AndyT":tjdzy2zk said:


> woodbrains":tjdzy2zk said:
> 
> 
> > Reggie":tjdzy2zk said:
> ...



Yep, in the same way that Marco Pierre White really used Knorr stock cubes and Cheryl Cole dyes her hair with her head in the kitchen sink cause she's worth it. :wink: 

Mike.


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## longinthetooth (30 Jul 2013)

Reggie":mumpv9lz said:


> I get the feeling that with a chisel, it's not so much about who made it and more about who's using it and how well they can keep it sharpened.



You're wrong there, steel itself varies as do its forging and tempering. It won't keep an edge if it's poor stuff.



fluffflinger":mumpv9lz said:


> Set of old Blue Handled Stanley 5002 or better still Black Handled 5001 from ebay or a boot sale. They were made of good steel and are cheap and plentiful.



Seconded.


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## clivethecarpenter (30 Jul 2013)

I'll bet he's not!

Mike.[/quote]

http://paulsellers.com/2011/03/ally-pally-show-questions/ !![/quote]

Yep, in the same way that Marco Pierre White really used Knorr stock cubes and Cheryl Cole dyes her hair with her head in the kitchen sink cause she's worth it. :wink: 

Mike.[/quote]


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Reggie (30 Jul 2013)

wow, he quickly you lot mock  I've seen the blog, I've seen the videos, he doesn't seem to care much what the tool is as long as it's sharp, I'm sure he'd throw away anything that was complete garbage as would we all, he advocates grabbing 2nd hand chisels as much as anything else, I'm pretty sure that if it can hold an edge then it's very usable, whether it comes from aldi, stanley or sorby.


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## James C (30 Jul 2013)

This is quite interesting as I have been using the Narex Cabinet Makers chisels for quite a while now and have been very happy with them compared to some of my older more vintage ones they are not that bad. 

The edge retention is fine and so is the profile. I do find them a bit lacking when chopping larger dovetails in hardwood. I recently took the plunge and ordered a Lie Nielsen Bevel Edged Chisel from classic hand tools. Just the one, a 1/2" as its the one size I reach for when tackling most tasks. That and my Hooped Unnamed Sheffield 1 1/2" Guage line deepener.


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## Vann (31 Jul 2013)

tobytools":1u7uad2y said:


> ...im by no means a rich man but those LN are winking at me


C'mon guys, Toby wants to splash out on some new ones (we all like a bit of bling in the shed), and it's our job to help grease the slope 8) :tool:

Ashley Iles chisels - some e-retailer in the States was even selling them with London pattern handles - but I think you'll have to fit your own.
:idea: I think you can even buy AI chisels without the handles if you buy them direct from the manufacturer (could be wrong)

Lie-Nielsen's socket chisels just wouldn't look right with London pattern handles  

Cheers, Vann.


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## tobytools (31 Jul 2013)

Vann":razababk said:


> tobytools":razababk said:
> 
> 
> > ...im by no means a rich man but those LN are winking at me
> ...



I agree socket chisels wouldn't look good or work with London pattern chisels lol, as has been recommended I'll probably just buy a coupe new ones .LN, but not a fan of the socket handles but i could live with them. I like blue spruce but cost way to much 
, ive posted im looking for a LA Block plane as well, dout i could affort block and chisel set, so just gona have to use my money smartly untill i sell some more stuff on flebay, its amazing what people will but ,(i would know )

Ps. That thread on new no4 hand plane gave me chuckles


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## bugbear (31 Jul 2013)

Paul Sellers liked Robert Sorby chisels (after he'd lapped 'em flat):

http://paulsellers.com/2012/12/robert-s ... -the-best/

Doesn't like modern Irwin;

http://paulsellers.com/2012/10/irwin-ch ... es-of-old/

He also like Narex, but feels they need more brass...

http://paulsellers.com/2012/01/narex-ch ... all-round/

I'm not sure wether Narex varies from retailer to retailer, in the Quangsheng (and variants) manner.

BugBear


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## bobbybirds (31 Jul 2013)

If the fellow has already said he has vintage chisels but wants to try new chisels, who is anyone here to argue that? It is his money to spend and he has asked opinions on NEW chisels! Holy this place has a hate on anything not cheap and used...

How much budget are you looking at? What sizes are best for you will always depend on your specific area of work. The Veritas chisels are very nice and come in either O1 or the new PMV11 steel. I do not own them but have had the chance to handle them a bit and they are second to none. I do own Blue Spruce chisels and they are not only beautiful, but perform flawlessly! Now as every know, a premium chisel does not make a premium woodworker, but they are a real pleasure to handle no matter the skill level, so long as you are not suffering from the price tag...

Buy what you want sir, and don't let the pooh pooh'ers bother you!


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## Graham Orm (31 Jul 2013)

bobbybirds":1nqjam0q said:


> If the fellow has already said he has vintage chisels but wants to try new chisels, who is anyone here to argue that? It is his money to spend and he has asked opinions on NEW chisels! Holy this place has a hate on anything not cheap and used...
> 
> How much budget are you looking at? What sizes are best for you will always depend on your specific area of work. The Veritas chisels are very nice and come in either O1 or the new PMV11 steel. I do not own them but have had the chance to handle them a bit and they are second to none. I do own Blue Spruce chisels and they are not only beautiful, but perform flawlessly! Now as every know, a premium chisel does not make a premium woodworker, but they are a real pleasure to handle no matter the skill level, so long as you are not suffering from the price tag...
> 
> Buy what you want sir, and don't let the pooh pooh'ers bother you!



=D> =D>


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## Graham Orm (31 Jul 2013)

Personally I think these are delicious and would love to own a set, to use.....and to look at. Hrdened to RC 59....just right http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NAREX-810...0892444238143&pid=100034&prg=7839&rk=3&rkt=3&


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## dunbarhamlin (31 Jul 2013)

If after AIs with London pattern handles, I always assumed Ray Iles' London pattern handled bench chisels use the same sharp end as his younger siblings' http://www.oldtoolstore.co.uk/


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## tobytools (31 Jul 2013)

bobbybirds":1ez4klhq said:


> If the fellow has already said he has vintage chisels but wants to try new chisels, who is anyone here to argue that? It is his money to spend and he has asked opinions on NEW chisels! Holy this place has a hate on anything not cheap and used...
> 
> How much budget are you looking at? What sizes are best for you will always depend on your specific area of work. The Veritas chisels are very nice and come in either O1 or the new PMV11 steel. I do not own them but have had the chance to handle them a bit and they are second to none. I do own Blue Spruce chisels and they are not only beautiful, but perform flawlessly! Now as every know, a premium chisel does not make a premium woodworker, but they are a real pleasure to handle no matter the skill level, so long as you are not suffering from the price tag...
> 
> Buy what you want sir, and don't let the pooh pooh'ers bother you!



 well said, every one like diffrent chisels. I've been told by a friend that the Barnsley workshop use 3mm, 6mm 19mm and 25mm chisels so I will only get these as I have plenty of diffrent sizes from as small as they get to 2" plus but want to refine to just a select few great workers. My partner have said she will donate to me £80 to go towards some new stuff, I've looked at the Ashley iles chisels. But im gona speek to a friend and c what he thinks and I regard his opinion above all others. but my budget is say about £200 but will go a but more for a set, hopefully 4 chisels don't cost that much. there are so many to choose from don't know what to do. Is this how woman feel when shopping for cloths lol


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## Reggie (31 Jul 2013)

I think we've all been through the phase with each and every hobby where we assume we need to spend money, personally, if you already have a large amount of chisels, I was wondering why you really needed any more and why you necessarily needed to spend a lot of money on some? I'm certainly no expert but I'm genuinely curious


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## tobytools (31 Jul 2013)

Reggie":2b1h4p8h said:


> I think we've all been through the phase with each and every hobby where we assume we need to spend money, personally, if you already have a large amount of chisels, I was wondering why you really needed any more and why you necessarily needed to spend a lot of money on some? I'm certainly no expert but I'm genuinely curious



Good question, I'll explain. I used to buy old tools and use them or try to as im a learner, im starting courses and then next year going to do joinery, and want a few very good chisels to be proud of, and not a mash of miscellaneous chisels, its me being silly because if they work who gives a damm, I've made up my mind tho on this subject and just going to but 4 nice once for good work and have a few for ruff work (as they say) gona have to flattern and sharpen them all  owell give me a chance to try out my many stones and Veritas mk2 should be a fun (long) day 

Going with Ashley iles chisels just to clarify


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## Sheffield Tony (31 Jul 2013)

Ashley Iles chisels will serve you well I'm sure. I have some of their pole lathe turning tools, and they are fine.

Just in a last ditch attempt to muddy the waters, I see that Toolpost have a great price (~£35+VAT) on Hamlet Craft tools 
set of 4 bevel edged chisels. Hamlet are owned by Henry Taylor, made in Sheffield (  ) and quite respectable.


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## MIGNAL (31 Jul 2013)

That's a very respectable price for a set of Chisels made in Sheffield - £10 a pop. Anyone seen one of these Hamlets? 
BTW I have a set of 4 Ashley Iles Mk II's and you certainly can't complain about their finish/accuracy. What exactly would a LN chisel do that an AI's can't? Just asking.


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## Sheffield Tony (31 Jul 2013)

Correction, actually £39.28+VAT, just checked. I have one, 1/8". Quite a chunky handle in a dark stained beech. Seems good steel.


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## Reggie (1 Aug 2013)

Thanks TT, so it's aesthetic more than anything else, it's not unreasonable  I'm buying a real mallet this week for the same reason because the lump of soft white wood I've been using looks like a lump of wood and not a hammer.


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## tobytools (1 Aug 2013)

Reggie":167i04ok said:


> Thanks TT, so it's aesthetic more than anything else, it's not unreasonable  I'm buying a real mallet this week for the same reason because the lump of soft white wood I've been using looks like a lump of wood and not a hammer.



That's the one, I've emailed who I think is the wife because if I order from factory they are cheaper or so I read in a post on this forum from 2004/07 so were c what happens if not then I'll order then next week 
Mallet, mine looks a bit beaten up 2 :/


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## Jacob (1 Aug 2013)

tobytools":1p8vdv3r said:


> Reggie":1p8vdv3r said:
> 
> 
> > I think we've all been through the phase with each and every hobby where we assume we need to spend money, personally, if you already have a large amount of chisels, I was wondering why you really needed any more and why you necessarily needed to spend a lot of money on some? I'm certainly no expert but I'm genuinely curious
> ...


You don't need to flatten chisels, it's just a weird fad on the amateur woodwork scene - some . somewhere has said it has to be done and everybody follows suit with their brains off! If you do flatten them this actually makes them harder to sharpen in the future as they tend to be ground slightly hollow on the faces which makes sharpening easier, a bit like Jap chisels but less obvious.
If you can't sharpen them ready for use in just a few minutes they are faulty and should be sent back. What's the point of paying all that money for chisels which aren't finished?


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## bugbear (1 Aug 2013)

Jacob":35mohy7d said:


> You don't need to flatten chisels, it's just a weird fad on the amateur woodwork scene - some . somewhere has said it has to be done and everybody follows suit with their brains off!



Prats like Paul Sellers:

"The reverse, (large flat surface) of my edge tools such as chisels, planes, spokeshaves and so on are lapped flat and then polished through refining stages to a mirror finish."

BugBear


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## Reggie (1 Aug 2013)

Cue link to manuscript from 1437 showing pictures of english craftsmen flattening the backs of their plane blades.....


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## AndyT (1 Aug 2013)

It's like déjà vu all over again!

Shall we just stop now while we are all still friends?


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## tobytools (1 Aug 2013)

Sorry Jacob U may of misunderstood me I will flatten the old chisels and hone them! The new ones when I get them I will still do a few passes on the backs and bevel of them just to make sure they are at 100%, im no pro but im sure that an edge is made from two straights meeting (still learning terminology) 
I may be wrong but it the backs arnt straight the chisel should either be sorted or uses to open tins lol.
Any help on this would be great. 

Ps. I'm sure I've even seen people flatter LN irons fresh from the box


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## Cheshirechappie (1 Aug 2013)

tobytools":2iegybae said:


> Sorry Jacob U may of misunderstood me I will flatten the old chisels and hone them! The new ones when I get them I will still do a few passes on the backs and bevel of them just to make sure they are at 100%, im no pro but im sure that an edge is made from two straights meeting (still learning terminology)
> I may be wrong but it the backs arnt straight the chisel should either be sorted or uses to open tins lol.
> Any help on this would be great.
> 
> Ps. I'm sure I've even seen people flatter LN irons fresh from the box



Toby, you've got the general idea spot on. A sharp edge is the meeting of two smooth and polished surfaces.

About 18 months ago, the family bought me a selection of Ashley Isles b/e chisels for a 'significant' birthday (following my dropping a broad hint or three and directing them to the Workshop Heaven website). They are absolutely superb, and I wouldn't part with them for a big gold clock. Flattening the backs (well, more just polishing the back right behind the cutting edge) using the finest sharpening stone you have, and a similar lick of two on the bevel, was very quick and easy. The set of eight took me about half-an-hour to prepare in total. As Jacob says, good chisels are made with a very slight hollow in length (about 3 thousands of an inch, so very slight indeed), so it's easy to just polish right by the edge. 

The technique I used was to place the back of the chisel on the edge of the sharpening stone, with the edge up in the air and the handle below the stone, then bring the handle up so that the back laid on the stone, then with finger pressure directly downwards on the chisel blade, draw it back. Repeat several times, and check for a polish across the whole cutting edge for about a milimetre or two behind the edge. Once you've got that, polish the bevel as in normal sharpening, turn over again and put the flat side to the stone, and draw back to turn the wire-edge. You may need to go bevel-back-bevel-back a few times to completely remove the wire edge, or draw the edge through the endgrain of a piece of softwood. Once that's done, your chisel as about as sharp as you will ever get it from that stone.

Be careful with narrower chisels when preparing and sharpening them. Keep finger pressure directly down - it's quite easy for a narrow chisel to tilt and allow you to dub off a corner if you aren't careful enough.

Once the flat side has it's initial polish, you never need to repeat. The act of removing the wire edge during normal sharpening will maintain (and gradually improve) the polish on the flat. Just be sure NEVER to allow the cutting edge on the flat side to contact the stone before the rest of the back does - get into the habit of lowering the handle before putting the flat side to the stone so that a point a couple of inches back from the edge contacts the stone first. That way, you'll never dub over the cutting edge on the flat side.

Enjoy you new AI chisels. Keep them for 'best' work, and they'll serve you well for the rest of your woodworking days!

Edit to add - with the older chisels, if you keep a few for 'rough' work, it isn't essential that the flat sides are absolutely dead flat. Chisels used for heavy chopping and removal of 'bulk' waste just need a sharpish edge, and provided you can 'draw off' the wire edge when sharpening them, a few minor hollows or bumps won't hurt much. Dead flat chisels are only really needed for very fine work, fitting tight cabinetmaking joints and the like.


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## tobytools (1 Aug 2013)

Thanks Cheshirechappie for the tip they should serve me well if I apply myself and do it properly. Thanks every one also for help and advice. When I've recieved these bad boys I'll give a full review.
Cheers everyone 
TT


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## G S Haydon (1 Aug 2013)

AndyT":kxhm9z3i said:


> woodbrains":kxhm9z3i said:
> 
> 
> > Reggie":kxhm9z3i said:
> ...



What I very much like about the Aldi chisels and someone who is willing to say they are a decent tool, is that it removes the potential inferiority complex about cheaper but still appropriate tools. I have no view I wish to ram down peoples thoughts on budget vs premium, how much of a difference they make, most people can work this out for themselves. But it's a really valid contribution when people say how pleased they are with a cheaper tool.
Could be worth a new thread (unless I have missed one) on great cheap tools.

Tobytools, enjoy the Ashley Isles, they look to be wonderful tools.


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## Reggie (2 Aug 2013)

I think you have to be curious enough to find out whether there is a real difference between good enough, good and exceptional to want to spend money on the expensive kit. Personally, all I've ever known is the hand me downs my Dad gave me a few weeks ago, 2 are definitely stanley, not entirely sure about the other 5, I'm still at the stage where I'm learning technique and how wood behaves, so right now I have no interest in expensive chisels myself.


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## bugbear (2 Aug 2013)

Reggie":1yatflhp said:


> I...a real difference between good enough, good and exceptional to want to spend money on the expensive kit.



The difficulties for a beginner are knowing which is which (because price is not a truly completely reliable guide to quality) and knowing wether the difficulties you're having are down to inadequate kit or inadequate skills (or, for the truly unfortunate) both.

One advantage of buying definitely-good-or-better kit is that it eliminates that quandry. And they tend to be beautiful, which is always a bonus.

BugBear


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## Jacob (2 Aug 2013)

bugbear":1l6p1wdj said:


> ...
> 
> One advantage of buying definitely-good-or-better kit is that it eliminates that quandry......


Yes that's the answer! 
BTW how do you identify "definitely-good-or-better kit"?
If you don't know I'd suggest buying cheapest. It's probably OK (all chisels are OK all of them are usable) but if not you won't have wasted too much money and it's all part of the learning curve. Might as well learn how to sharpen by spoiling some cheapos rather than an expensive matching set.


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## Grahamshed (2 Aug 2013)

I went to Workshop Heaven yesterday ( Matthew is a great bloke ) with the probable intension of getting some Narex chisels but wanting to get a good look at the Ashley Iles as well.
The AIs were beautiful. A perfectly balanced work of art. Matthew told me they are still ground by hand but they gave me the impression the were rolled on a dusky maidens thigh like a good cigar. 
They would have been totally wasted on me so I came away well pleased with a lot of Narex.

Incidently, Matthew was showing me the Scary sharp method. He actually wacked a good chisel with a hammer to show me how to get nicks out.


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## AndyT (2 Aug 2013)

I wish it was the case that all cheap chisels are ok. May I offer an example of what to avoid?

I bought these about 15 years ago when I was getting into woodturning. They came from a shop selling cheap tat imported from China, which was a novelty at the time. I can't remember the price but they were probably about £3 for a set of 4 sizes.







I don't think anyone should try and use these as chisels.

This shot shows the curve:






You can see for yourselves the random shaping of the blade and handle and the fresh-from-the-belt-sander finish. You'll have to trust me that the blades are not in line with the handles and that the steel is very soft - "mild" is probably about right.

(I actually bought them to re-shape into scrapers; one is a hook shape for doing the insides of captive rings. This is very gentle work and did not put any scary forces on the steel. I did have to re-sharpen them each time I used them.)

They would also be suitable for opening tins of paint.


Oh, and if anyone wants to swap them for a set of Ashley Iles or Lie-Nielsen, that's fine by me! ;-)


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## bugbear (2 Aug 2013)

Jacob":331o0bb9 said:


> bugbear":331o0bb9 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Recommendations from people who's skill and judgement you trust would seem the obvious answer.

BugBear


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## iNewbie (2 Aug 2013)

That top one has some E A Berg-ness about it... :shock: 



AndyT":10cpz342 said:


> I wish it was the case that all cheap chisels are ok. May I offer an example of what to avoid?
> 
> I bought these about 15 years ago when I was getting into woodturning. They came from a shop selling cheap tat imported from China, which was a novelty at the time.


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## t8hants (2 Aug 2013)

That's an insult to A.E. Berg. Oh for a set of those, I've only got one, paid a whole 10p for it!

G


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## toolmaniac (2 Aug 2013)

I bough a secondhand set of Marples splitproof chisels in 1987 - the ones with the red and yellow handles.
I earned my living with them for 25 years, and still have them. I appreciate the old makes, and the box handles and brass ferrules, but if you want a good practical chisel, you can't beat Marples.

I know it's fashionable to turn your nose up at plastic handles, but they are practical, don't split, and east to clean.


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## bench_monkey (3 Aug 2013)

I'll go with tool maniac on this one, simply for prolonged use in trade. Myself and the majority of chaps in our workshop use the blue/yellow handled Irwin/marples chisels with metal ends. They hold a good edge, don't cost the earth and get pummelled day in, day out, and still come back for more. If I were at home I'd consider a more 'prestige' chisel based on having time to find my wooden mallet!


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2013)

AndyT":3p3wcp0l said:


> I wish it was the case that all cheap chisels are ok. May I offer an example of what to avoid?
> 
> I bought these about 15 years ago when I was getting into woodturning. They came from a shop selling cheap tat imported from China, which was a novelty at the time. I can't remember the price but they were probably about £3 for a set of 4 sizes.
> 
> ...


Why not? Getting them working, finding out the strengths and weaknesses, a lot of sharpening - all good exercise. And the simple fact is - for most purposes they will be good enough, once sharpened. These obviously haven't been used a lot - actually _using_ them would improve them no end, as they are sharpened and face flattened a bit every time to take the burr off.
Something tells me these are not as bad as you think!


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## James C (3 Aug 2013)

Sometimes a beginners time would be better spent not having to mess around with lots of fettling of chisels and jump straight into learning how to use them well. After all it's not about the tools.


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## Reggie (4 Aug 2013)

Sure but you're going to have to learn to sharpen them sooner or later, you can limit it to one at a time as you use them if necessary.


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2013)

James C":121rt95q said:


> Sometimes a beginners time would be better spent not having to mess around with lots of fettling of chisels and jump straight into learning how to use them well. After all it's not about the tools.


Beginners shouldn't be discouraged from having a go with whatever tools they have. It's just too easy to blame the tools and it's doubly discouraging when expensive and supposedly perfect new tools don't instantly transform performance. "Outa the box" is all very well but its a very short lived advantage and no use at all to the unskilled.
I think getting started with cheap wood, average tools and simple sharpening regimes (oil stones) is an extremely good idea.
The opposite view is all about selling stuff. 
It's not about the tools, it's not about shopping either!


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## James C (4 Aug 2013)

Hey as long as they get used to create things in wood! 

As far as sets go I have been taking mental note of the ones that I use the most often and outside of the 1/2" and 1 1/2" chisels that I use quite often I tend to find myself reaching for 1/4" and 3/8" every now and again. 

I think that if I went back to the beginning I wouldn't buy a cheap set or expensive set but just the best chisels I could afford or find at the car boot as and when I needed them. Which Is pretty much what I did anyway being limited in funds.


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## AndyT (4 Aug 2013)

Jacob, let me reassure you that I did once hang a door using a chisel just like that, as a favour for a friend. I had no tools with me but she had bought a brand new chisel for the purpose, not knowing that it would not be ready for use. Fortunately we were in Yorkshire so I was able to hone the chisel on the stone doorstep!


The edge lasted just long enough to cut one hinge mortise before it needed to be resharpened for the next. Yes, it was an educational experience - I learned not to rely on cheap Chinese chisels!


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## woodbrains (4 Aug 2013)

Hello,

Surely the point in these fora, is for those who have travelled the learning cure, to pass on what they have learned and make the same unnecessary for the uninitiated. What is so wrong with buying a tool just once; the right one first time. I bought all kinds of tools throughout my time woodworking, without the benefit of the Internet and through the nadir of Western tool quality. Others do not have to suffer the expense and waste of time I did, because new tools are better than they have been for years, and there are many who have experienceand can offer good advice on the best of the vintage. The notion that you just buy any tool and practice with it is flawed, when there is so many who know and understand what makes a good tool from a bad one and can give the best advice. Buy a good tool and have it work correctly from the get go and you will shave money and confusion and get working wood sooner. It is a fallacy that you need to practice on a junk tool before you get the good ones. Skip the pain and confusion and get working wood with tools that will reward your efforts, not stifle them.

Mike.


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":34au2xh4 said:


> ..... What is so wrong with buying a tool just once; the right one first time. .....


Nothing at all if that was possible but as a beginner; you might not be able to afford it, you need several, you don't really know what you need, you don't really know what is good value, you have a whole raft of "experts" telling you that everything you have already got is garbage and you need to spend a lot of money. Even worse when you start picking up on crazy sharpening, tuning, flattening and all the other modern fashionable stuff. Or some lunatic talks you into going Japanese, etc. etc.
It's a wonder anybody gets started! In fact many don't - there are too many obstacles set up for them by the "experts". :roll:


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## G S Haydon (4 Aug 2013)

I wonder if people are as confused as you think Jacob. I think forum member Reggie is a prime example of a level headed guy who can make up his own mind on tools based on his budget and his aspirations. 
Why would you be a lunatic to go Japanese?


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## Reggie (4 Aug 2013)

For sure and I own a Japanese flush saw :-D

Best advice I can ever give is listen to what everyone has to say about a subject, empirical answers are great and so are differences of opinion and if something doesn't seem right, ask questions  Watch as many videos as you can of craftsmen demonstrating what you want to attempt, then make your own mind up, cheap and cheerful is great and so is expensive, learning to sharpen, whichever method you use, is going to be unavoidable and it'll be the same method for cheap or expensive chisels.

I notice that the images on the previous page show some really cruddy chisels, we're obviously not talking about buying a set like that when we advocate cheap, there comes a point where you will have to make a decision based on overall quality of the tools yourself which is the same as anything in life.


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## bugbear (4 Aug 2013)

Jacob":gqp74qb3 said:


> AndyT":gqp74qb3 said:
> 
> 
> > I wish it was the case that all cheap chisels are ok. May I offer an example of what to avoid?
> ...



Something tells me Andy knows more about these chisels than you do, given that he owns them, and may well have had the misfourtune to use them,

First hand experience, which you keep telling us trumps all else.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Aug 2013)

G S Haydon":1uyepudz said:


> I wonder if people are as confused as you think Jacob. I think forum member Reggie is a prime example of a level headed guy who can make up his own mind on tools based on his budget and his aspirations.
> Why would you be a lunatic to go Japanese?


You would be a lunatic to go Japanese because Jacob doesn't like Japanese. The same as you would be lunatic to use anything other than an oilstone - Jacob doesn't like things other than oilstones. :?


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## AndyT (4 Aug 2013)

If anyone wants to buy one of these Diamond brand chisels I've been watching one on eBay which failed to sell - despite the low opening price of £2.49 - http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=141023913874


Maybe customers could not see the quality of the steel in a simple photo.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Aug 2013)

Is that address correct? I can't get a picture - not that I need one. :lol:


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Aug 2013)

AndyT":24b3188f said:


> If anyone wants to buy one of these Diamond brand chisels I've been watching one on eBay which failed to sell - despite the low opening price of £2.49 - http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=141023913874
> 
> 
> Maybe customers could not see the quality of the steel in a simple photo.



"A bevel edged firmer carving mortice chisel".

No wonder nobody bid for it - it's suffering a chronic identity crisis!


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2013)

phil.p":3jwnn25a said:


> G S Haydon":3jwnn25a said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if people are as confused as you think Jacob. I think forum member Reggie is a prime example of a level headed guy who can make up his own mind on tools based on his budget and his aspirations.
> ...


Nonsense. I love Japanese things and have been there - only a week in Tokyo but hope to go again some time for longer. Possibly a bike tour.
But you would be making a mistake if you found sawing with a western saw difficult and believed a Jap saw would be a magical solution to your problems. They are regularly touted as a sensible alternative to western saws, which I don't think they are at all - not least because of the expense (not sharpenable).
I recommend oilstones because they are cheap, simple, traditional and work well.

PS yes I have had experience of Diamond brand - a spokeshave and a chisel. They were OK, solidly made but simple, perfectly usable with good steel etc. Found in a box of left-over jumble - I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one but they were OK as freebies. Good chisels are cheap anyway.


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2013)

AndyT":1xiyignb said:


> Jacob, let me reassure you that I did once hang a door using a chisel just like that, as a favour for a friend. I had no tools with me but she had bought a brand new chisel for the purpose, not knowing that it would not be ready for use. Fortunately we were in Yorkshire so I was able to hone the chisel on the stone doorstep!
> 
> 
> The edge lasted just long enough to cut one hinge mortise before it needed to be resharpened for the next. Yes, it was an educational experience - I learned not to rely on cheap Chinese chisels!


Er, have I misunderstood? It seems you did rely on a Chinese chisel and got the job done. Not bad considering you didn't even have an oilstone! What else did you expect it to do, make you a cup of tea or something?


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## AndyT (4 Aug 2013)

Jacob":2pb27ccj said:


> AndyT":2pb27ccj said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, let me reassure you that I did once hang a door using a chisel just like that, as a favour for a friend. I had no tools with me but she had bought a brand new chisel for the purpose, not knowing that it would not be ready for use. Fortunately we were in Yorkshire so I was able to hone the chisel on the stone doorstep!
> ...



Yes, I got the job done. 

Was it done neatly? No. 
Quickly? No. 
Did I enjoy doing it and feel pride in the work? No.

My late father used to swear that he had managed to repair a perished valve rubber on his bike by using the stalk of a dandelion. Would he have recommended it as being just as good as piece of valve rubber? No. 

The OP was asking about upgrading from his current chisels to a small number of good quality newly made ones. I don't think any of us would suggest that he go out and buy a set of "Diamond Brand" chisels even if one specimen can allegedly cover all possible types!


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2013)

AndyT":3pdcj4ra said:


> Jacob":3pdcj4ra said:
> 
> 
> > AndyT":3pdcj4ra said:
> ...


No.You can't fault the chisel though can you, it was you that left your kit at home. Brand new, only a doorstep to sharpen it on but the job still got done! I see that as a recommendation. :lol: CHINESE CHISEL SAVES THE DAY!!


> My late father used to swear that he had managed to repair a perished valve rubber on his bike by using the stalk of a dandelion. Would he have recommended it as being just as good as piece of valve rubber? No.


 No one is saying "just as good" - what I'm saying (and what your experience demonstrates) is "not as bad as they say" (and I don't believe your old dad!)


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## woodbrains (4 Aug 2013)

Hello,
Re. Japanese tools:

You can get a first class Japanese saw for no more than a first class Western one, sometimes less. Replaceable blades mean sharpening is never going to be a problem, though some Japanese saws are resharpenable. Sharpening a 20 ppi dovetail saw is no fun and not free, a good file costs money, if you can even get one, and a sawset with a narrow anvil. My Japanese saw cost me less than any good quality Western saw that was available at the time, the blade is hardened to Rc 62 so will not need replacing for ages, (western saws are about Rc 52) and cuts so well you would not believe it. I have a Pax dovetail saw, which is a bloody good saw and I would heartily recommend, but my Japanese saw leaves it for dead. And was cheaper, with it's replacement blade, which I haven't used yet with no sign of having to any time soon. Japanese tools are just another way, there is no lunacy about it. And waterstones are no more expensive than oilstones, have you seen the price of a translucent Arkansas stone recently? But an artificial Japanese waterstone which will sharpen to a similar level would be about 30 pounds, and get the edge quicker. It is just different ways. And since I have actually used both Western and Japanese tools, I think I have a bit more basis on which to comment than dismissing things off hand as being lunacy.

Regarding cheap tools, of any variety, you have to ask the question, what is missing, that is inherent in the dearer tool. Assuming that we are not being robbed, there must, logically, be something lacking in the cheaper tool that is present in the dearer one. If that thing is something you can live without, then they are worth considering, but if it is something you need that is lacking, you have to rethink. A beginner may not realise that something is lacking in a tool that someone with more experience (and who actually cares) will find glaringly obvious. It is cruelly misleading to just advise they practice with them, as if practicing will ever make up for a tool that inherently can not work. Practice will not magically make a high carbon steel tool out of junk metal, nor improve the hardening and tempering and give the tool a sharp edge the steel will not allow. You can chop ten billion dovetails, but never improve over mediocre, if the chisels cross section won't allow access to the acute corners. The difference between a good tool and a poor one is often very subtle, but makes a lot of difference to the user. A good craftsman cannot do good work with poor tools, a beginner will be hamstrung from the outset and be sucked into the myth that woodwork is hard. It is not and shouldn't take hour upon hour of tedious practice and disappointing results after disappointing result. This is the real fallacy that abounds, not that expensive tools and unnatural sharpening practices are the way. I guarantee that a beginner, with the right tool, sharp, will get great results from the outset. It really is that easy.

Mike.


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":2hg10gsr said:


> Hello,


Hello


> ....... Assuming that we are not being robbed, there must, logically, be something lacking in the cheaper tool that is present in the dearer one.


Better materials, better made (shape) better finish - machining ,polishing etc


> .....a tool that inherently can not work.


Won't work, I agree. But this is a self evident truth and doesn't of itself exclude cheap, even poorly made, tools. You get a lot of self evident truths masking as arguments in these threads


> Practice will not magically make a high carbon steel tool out of junk metal, nor improve the hardening and tempering and give the tool a sharp edge the steel will not allow.


Part self evident truth- but you can get a sharp edge on less than ideal steel, probably easier in fact, but it won't last as long


> . You can chop ten billion dovetails, but never improve over mediocre, if the chisels cross section won't allow access to the acute corners.


So you alter the cross section with a file or a grindstone. You have to use your brain a bit. Quality has nothing to do with it - it's about shape. There are other wheezes of course - the most common being to over cut - then you can get the waste out with a narrow firmer, if this is all you have


> ..... A good craftsman cannot do good work with poor tools,


Except for the self evident truth component ("poor tools" defined as unable to do good work) this is not true. The main issue being more frequent sharpening


> ........ I guarantee that a beginner, with the right tool, sharp, will get great results from the outset. It really is that easy.
> 
> Mike.


You can 't guarantee this and it isn't that easy. A big delusion. These forums abound with tales of woe from beginners who have all the right kit but still can't make it work. Mainly because the know FA about methods and techniques - it's about practice, not the tools. Even worse - beginners who have set about flattening and "tuning" expensive top quality tools and making them worse in the process.


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## woodbrains (4 Aug 2013)

Hello,

Better steel, machining, polishing, better profile. Yes, these are all things we want in a tool, spend a bit more money and have it from the outset. You can regrind profiles, but a beginner doesn't know what that is or how. And assuming the steel is any good, easy to draw the temper and ruin it completely.Sometimes poor steel isn't easier to sharpen either, some cheap tools have a lot of chrome in them, a puppy to sharpen and a mediocre cutting edge anyway. They look shiney though. And a beginner who knows FA about technique will know none of this and be even less likely to own grinding equipment and that know how to reshape tools either.

And with some good advice from these fora, beginners can fill holes in their knowledge about techniques and get great results from their great tools. Good knowledge from here will be scattered on stones ground, if that person has garbage tools.

I do not advise expensive tools, I do not waste my money, or want to waste anyone else's, but there is a lower limit to a tools price, where it can not perform as we want, as you simply cannot get something for next to nothing. I certainly wouldn't advise buying a poor tool and taking to the grindstone to try and get it to work. The craftsmen at, let us say, Ashley Iles, are better at doing that than we will ever likely be, since they have done millions of tools. It can be done, and I have done it, but it would have been better if I knew someone who could have told me which tool would have been a better buy first time, so I would not have had to do so.

Unfortunately, woodwork requires some tools, that cost some money. Anyone who wants to do woodwork as a great hobby, or a profession has to understand this sooner or later. If they think they can do woodwork well, enjoy it and improve for the price of cheap tat, we would do them a greater service disabusing them of that notion from the beginning. High end, boutique tools are unnecessary, but will work very well and last a lifetime, so I wold never put anyone off getting some if they fancy them. But I am ferociously against encouraging beginners to buy poor tools or waste their time trying to use them, if they I'll never get the results I know is possible and could not get with those poor tools myself. The middle ground of workable tools at a good price, sensible advice on how to fettle minor, but fixable problems and good technique (not dodges, they can find these out for themselves if they need them) is all I try to give.

Mike.


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## AndyT (4 Aug 2013)

Hi Toby,

Have you decided what to get yet?


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## GazPal (4 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":24ur6uee said:


> Hello,
> 
> And with some good advice from these fora, beginners can fill holes in their knowledge about techniques and get great results from their great tools. Good knowledge from here will be scattered on stones ground, if that person has garbage tools.
> 
> ...



This is where listening to and receiving tuition (One to one or online) from proven craftsmen:teachers pays dividends, rather than being influenced via DIY writers or tool sales technicians who's taste/preferences vary depending on their employment or the need to write/publish articles. Being published doesn't qualify the writer as being any good as a craftsman:teacher, whereas a proven track record of consistently high quality work and successful teaching does.

IMHO the ones to avoid are those who teach, yet find pupils consistently falling short of completing their projects by the course's end.

------------

Tool quality is mighty variable, but choice needs to suit the user's pocket/budget. Professional level tooling isn't necessary for someone to participate on an amateur/DIY level, but identifying tools of reasonable quality can be extremely difficult. Nobody wants to find themselves lumbered with rubbish tools, but we're all guilty of buying cheaply at some point or another.

All I can recommend is to buy from among the better known toolmakers. Tools branded/stamped with the maker's mark tend to be of at least reasonable quality, as a maker will seldom place their name on poor quality tools. Buy from among established tool lines, but try not to be hoodwinked into buying old tools due to "assumed" tool steel quality. Crucible cast/choice tool steel can be just as variable in quality as any other steel and you'll tend to find the good old tools were worn out - because they were damned good - rather than shelved for re-sale at a later date in next to pristine condition.


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## tobytools (4 Aug 2013)

AndyT":pg1rpcnh said:


> Hi Toby,
> 
> Have you decided what to get yet?



hey Andy, ye im gona go with the:
3mm
6mm
19mm
was gona get 25mm but i have a few to play with so ill buy as i need.
Ashely iles 
im gona order them in next few days.
when i get them i let u know what i think


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## Harbo (4 Aug 2013)

Ashley Iles - good choice.


Rod


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## Reggie (4 Aug 2013)

I've now done about 7 practice mortices, first one was junk, same as the 2nd (really dreadful bent chisel), didn't bother doing any more until I'd been given 7 random-ish be chisels by my dad and sharpened them. The next 5 mortices have gotten progressively better, with my technique getting better as I go along, I'm recognising how to hold the chisel correctly, staying within my lines and getting faster as I'm doing it. The only money I have spent on this is £11, for a honing guide, stone and oil kit. I still have a couple of things to pay attention to but overall I am happy with my progress so far, at this rate I can only see me buying expensive chisels out of desire rather than necessity. only 2 of the chisels are branded but 5.

I've also been messing around with the record no.4 smoothing plane, took it apart, got to grips with all the parts, learnt how to adjust it and have no issues with using it at all now, getting nice wide shavings, I'm able to know which way the grain goes, how to use that to my advantage and have managed to true up a couple of lengths of 3x3 pine that didn't have a 90degree angle between them.

Out of everything that I've learnt, I'd say the technique of using them has been learnt from video tutorials, everything else has been learnt from forum members. I basically decided that I would try and borrow as many tools as I could to try out first, along with asking as many relevant/stupid questions as possible, every single opinion is valid, even those with vested interests/obvious bias, it's down to you to filter the information from the motive. 

Once I'd had some experience of using *any* tools then I had a basis to start making purchasing decisions on. My current purchasing decisions with regards to chisels is to buy a mallet and nothing else, for planes, I like the idea of a number 5 jack but I have proved that I don't necessarily need one just yet, so I will hold fire on that until absolutely necessary.


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## tobytools (4 Aug 2013)

Reggie":2cfsxau0 said:


> I've now done about 7 practice mortices, first one was junk, same as the 2nd (really dreadful bent chisel), didn't bother doing any more until I'd been given 7 random-ish be chisels by my dad and sharpened them. The next 5 mortices have gotten progressively better, with my technique getting better as I go along, I'm recognising how to hold the chisel correctly, staying within my lines and getting faster as I'm doing it. The only money I have spent on this is £11, for a honing guide, stone and oil kit. I still have a couple of things to pay attention to but overall I am happy with my progress so far, at this rate I can only see me buying expensive chisels out of desire rather than necessity. only 2 of the chisels are branded but 5.
> 
> I've also been messing around with the record no.4 smoothing plane, took it apart, got to grips with all the parts, learnt how to adjust it and have no issues with using it at all now, getting nice wide shavings, I'm able to know which way the grain goes, how to use that to my advantage and have managed to true up a couple of lengths of 3x3 pine that didn't have a 90degree angle between them.
> 
> ...



smart idea, i should do same but i want it all, if i think ill need it i get it or if i see something i could use or try out ect ect i do so as, its better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. good luck with your work
TT


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## G S Haydon (4 Aug 2013)

Reggie, I would really like to see you set up a blog. You write very well indeed and I'm sure Reggie's Woodwork Diary could prove to be a valuable recourse to people picking up tools for the first time.


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## Reggie (5 Aug 2013)

I think we all want everything we'll need Toby  It's just identifying what's necessary and what is fluff. I'm not for one second suggesting that your chisel choices are fluff, chisels are good and necessary.

G S Haydon, http://randmfu.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/i ... rking.html

It's a bit long but I think it pretty much sums up the last few months for me, no bench yet but I've learnt a lot, how the basic tools are used, marking up, sharpening, grain, mortices, tenons, power tools, fettling smoothing planes, sketchup, tons of stuff about routers and jigs, so much that I once I do get my bench built and the router table/fence setup that there really will be no stopping me


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## dj. (5 Aug 2013)

Reggie":rxkcu2ha said:


> My current purchasing decisions with regards to chisels is to buy a mallet and nothing else,




Just get yourself some hardwood Reggie, Beech is good but most hardwoods will do, you can cut a mortise & use a No4 that covers most of what you need to know to make your own mallet. It`s so much more satisfying to work wood with tools you`ve made yourself & it`s all good practice.

Regards.


dj.


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## G S Haydon (5 Aug 2013)

Great stuff Reggie


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## Reggie (5 Aug 2013)

Too late Dj, I ordered the mallet on friday. I might still go ahead and make one though at some point in the future.

GS, thanks, I'll be writing up chisels and other stuff over time too, just thought I'd get my blog up to speed on what I've been doing to get where I'm at with the first post.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2013)

Make sure you soak your mallet in linseed for a few days before you use it.


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## Reggie (5 Aug 2013)

Awwww, come on, linseed oil, days....... The one bit of chisel research that eluded me was about hammers, typical, I knew I should've gone with the thor 710/712 or one of their deadblow hammers instead of a traditional mallet.

Phil, is the soaking process to add weight or protection or both?


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## G S Haydon (5 Aug 2013)

On mallets, I have often (nearly always) been a very bad man and used a claw hammer on my chisels. I used a mallet recently but I missed the sharp blow of a metal hammer. I have seen brass hammers but decided to buy a rawhide & copper headed hammer to try. I appreciate it's an automotive tool (at least I think it is) but it seems nicely weighted and offers that sharp blow I'm used to.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2013)

Reggie":sbtcz4ut said:


> Awwww, come on, linseed oil, days....... The one bit of chisel research that eluded me was about hammers, typical, I knew I should've gone with the thor 710/712 or one of their deadblow hammers instead of a traditional mallet.
> 
> Phil, is the soaking process to add weight or protection or both?


 Protection mainly, although it probably adds a little weight. It's probably insignificant, though. It soaks in quicker if warmed up (not over a flame!). I was lucky, I bought eight litres of good linseed at a car boot for £4, so if I know I'm not using wooden (handled) tools for a week or two for some reason, I tip it in a bucket with the tools and leave it.


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## Reggie (5 Aug 2013)

GS Haydon,I wasn't entirely convinced about buying a mallet, the thought of prepping a hammer for a few days seems wrong somehow :-D I caved in to parental pressure on that purchase 

Phil, how much linseed oil is this hammer going to take do you think? Clearly I need it in a container large enough to take the mallet, I wonder if I could do something genius like put it all in a sealable food bag or something?


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2013)

I suppose you could use a bag, but if you find a container that the head of the mallet fits in quite closely, you shouldn't need much oil - it's an upfront expense, but you'll find other things to use the oil for afterwards. There's very little waste.


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## Jacob (5 Aug 2013)

A quick wipe over with linseed is enough?

Mallet - I made this one the other day , my bought beech one having split (but I've stuck it back together).
It's hedgerow ash. I cut a few bits a couple of years ago. It doesn't split if small enough diameter, left full length and dried slowly. Brilliant for tool handles of all sorts, long and short, from chisel to scythe. Comes in all sizes, usually straight grained, it even has a central hole (the pith) already in place.







No time to pull apart another of woodbrains' dense texts above but one thing stands out: the notion that a craftsman can't work with inferior tools. 
This is nonsense and the complete opposite of the truth. A competent craftsman will not be fazed by a Chinese chisel or a second-rate plane. They would not hold up the job - except for the extra fiddling/sharpening time required at the start - but this usually does not need repeating and is an investment in itself. 

It's the beginner who (is encouraged to believe he edit) needs the perfection outa the box; can't freehand at 30º but needs a jig and a flat plate, can't do a quick hone and needs expensive steel which will hold and edge longer, can't eyeball a line and needs a guide, can't sharpen a saw and needs disposable blades, can't do "the ruler trick" without a ruler (which ruler to buy? Starrett? What about getting a bit of steel machined to the "correct" thickness? etc) and so on (and on).

Incidentally if no-sharpen disposable blades are the point of Jap saws what is wrong with western hardpoint saws? They are a lot cheaper and work very well. Is it just a fashion thing?

The major selling point of the posh planes is not that "craftsmen" need them - it's that they are silly person proof (as near as you can get). Someone who can't mitre with an old 5 1/2 might just be able to do it with two opposite handed skew mitre panes (if he can afford them or can raise a mortgage). Someone who can't work an old 4 might be OK with an LV LA smoother, and so on.
This isn't a value judgement, just an observation. By all means buy the best you can afford.


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## G S Haydon (5 Aug 2013)

+1 on hardpoint disposable saws, super value and so sharp. Would not be without one


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## Reggie (5 Aug 2013)

That's a nice looking harry potter mallet Jacob, do you wave it around shouting 'fitogetherous' before you hit stuff with it?  As for beginners needing perfection, I disagree, we just need a decent starting point to be able to judge whether its us or the tools.

I chose a guide because I don't have the time and energy to learn to do it by hand/eye quickly enough, I needed to use the chisels and getting them done by eye will be something for the future. I didn't chose expensive steel though, just borrowed some tools, I do see your point on craftsmen and tools though, once you know how to handle a tool, as long as the chisel isn't made of jelly, you should be able to knock a hole through wood, you might need to hit it harder or sharpen it more often but it shouldn't stop you making a hole. I think though that that is the crux for a lot of people, the time spent overcoming a tools weakness vs money spent buying a tool that is without deficiency in the first place. 

As for saws, you seem stuck in your ways Jacob, which works for you and that's absolutely fine, however, for someone like myself who really doesn't care what the tool is as long as it does the job then the japanese saws are intriguing enough to give them a try. I don't know much about saws but I do know that the japanese flush saw gives a nice fine cut that requires little finishing, as opposed to the tenon saw I bought first, that was all I cared about. 

I'm put off the hardpoint saws over here simply because of the poor marketing, far too many corny names like 'laser shark chubby cleaver saw', far too many garish colours and they seem more interested in making distinctive shaped handles to make them stand out, they're the wood working equivalent of toothpaste or washing powder.

With japanese saws the internet plays a big part, you can find out about products from all over the planet, see videos of how to use them and then order one, dropped straight to your doorstep, it's easy to try stuff out, so people do. 

I think it's great myself, I love the idea of people like Jacob who are passing on old skills and tools to people like me, who are also gathering tools and knowledge from different cultures, a tradition that I'm sure has been going on for thousands of years, whenever those cultures have met, the difference is these days we don't have to jump on a ship and sail for 3 years to find that culture, we can access it in the blink of an eye.


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## lanemaux (5 Aug 2013)

Hi Reggie , just an aside on the subject of pull type saws. They need be neither Japanese nor expensive. I have an Irwin version which works well and cost me about 20 dollars Canuckian. It is filed rip on one side and crosscut on the other and while not a "traditional" model , it cuts beautifully. Easy to control , straight as can be and for me at least cutting pull stroke is very easy and relaxing. Re: chisels , got some plastic handled jobs from a yard sale , no name , no clue as to manufacturer and adequate for my needs 5 bucks for 8 of them . The steel looked good to my eye and I carry a small stone with me most of the time so a tryout told me they would do. A quick hone tells you a lot in a short time ,trust me. For me it is all about having fun... a "hobby" as it were. Not advice , just how I see things.


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## MIGNAL (5 Aug 2013)

I remember the time when Japanese saws suddenly became all the rage. You had to hide your western Saws out of fear of being ridiculed. :shock: Folk would ps. themselves if they caught you with an oil stone. :?


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## G S Haydon (5 Aug 2013)

This one was called jack http://www.wickes.co.uk/fine-cut-hand-s ... vt/167586/ very cheap and awfully good. You are right though reggie, some of the names make me smile, my favorite right now is the "predator"


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## riclepp (5 Aug 2013)

Vann":2ha8vlrb said:


> tobytools":2ha8vlrb said:
> 
> 
> > ...im by no means a rich man but those LN are winking at me
> ...




+1 for what Vann has said about the Asley Iles. I have just bought the Mk2 BE set of 11 cabinet Makers chisels. I am still polishing the backs, but boy they are sharp and hold thier edge for a while too, in addition the cut really nicely. I have also been to the foundary, really interesting place and yes you can just buy the metal parts and put your own handles on, or for extra they will put on the LP handles for you.

HTH


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## Reggie (6 Aug 2013)

Oddly 1/2 of the Irwin pull saws bear some remarkable resemblance to Japanese saws.

Thanks G, I'll keep that jack in mind when I get around to needing one


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## Jacob (6 Aug 2013)

riclepp":240odv6n said:


> ....... I have just bought the Mk2 BE set of 11 cabinet Makers chisels. *I am still polishing the backs, .*...


What for? It doesn't do anything useful it's just a fad. Seems a pity to buzz about unnecessarily with nice new expensive chisels.


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## iNewbie (6 Aug 2013)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## riclepp (6 Aug 2013)

Jacob":3ofq3mfy said:


> riclepp":3ofq3mfy said:
> 
> 
> > ....... I have just bought the Mk2 BE set of 11 cabinet Makers chisels. *I am still polishing the backs, .*...
> ...




Because that is how I have been taught and also my father taught me. Jacob, get yer head out of the clouds. Lets not go around in circles again, everyone has their own way and with this is mind, please respect it. I havent yet critisied how you prep or not your tools. Please, for once in you sad little life, add something useful to the forum, if not sod off. This may be the reason why you was kicked from one of the other forums as you just keep antagonising other forum members


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## Jacob (6 Aug 2013)

riclepp":2p6g07zq said:


> Jacob":2p6g07zq said:
> 
> 
> > riclepp":2p6g07zq said:
> ...


OK so you don't really know why you do it? :lol: :lol:


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## riclepp (6 Aug 2013)

OK so you don't really know why you do it? :lol: :lol:[/quote]


Errr, yes I do thank you vey much. It helps with visulisation of a knife mark or pencil mark. Gets rid of the fine grinding marks that are left after the factoy has finished with it and allows a closer attachment between the wood and chisel. But then again, you know everything and that us mere mortals should bow to your superior knowledge should'nt we.


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## Jacob (6 Aug 2013)

riclepp":34d8194n said:


> > OK so you don't really know why you do it? :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's just that I'm interested in these ritualistic belief systems and how they intrude into even the simple world of woodwork. I didn't realise they were there until I started enquiring into how things should be done, and why, for my own information.


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## bugbear (6 Aug 2013)

Jacob":18njhemg said:


> By all means buy the best you can afford.



Paul on the way to Damascus or what.

BugBear


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## riclepp (6 Aug 2013)

So then who taught you, who taught the person who taught him/her. This can and has gone around in circles on this and other forums. My Father was taught this method in his 7 year apprentiship back in the 40s after WW2., and he showed me and then I was retaught this again last year with Peter Sefton,. As I am used to this method and is easy for me to do I am happy to use it and will do for a long time. But the important point here is that it works for me, but it might not work for others and it is their choice as to what method they use. As you have yours and you stand by it. The same would go for sharpening saws a other issues we could get bogged down in. Another important point is to advise new starters to this wonderful world of cabinet Making or joinery or whatever they want to do with wood on what way that they can sharpen thier tools by and the pro's and con's, but hopefully not ramming a particular method down their throats and say this is the only way to do it. For them to reach a balanced and well informed decision they need facts and not speculation or opinon is what is important. Each and every method will have pros and cons, but thats life. As man's knowledge increases (some may say decreases) ways of doing things change some for good and some for the worse. Some old methods will stand the test of time and some won't. I have used oil stones and proberly will in the future I suspect, but that is my choice and not some dictate by someone else.

I am sure Jacob, you have a valuable wealth of knowledge and wisdom, but please just stop telling people that method x is the only way of doing it and all the rest are pants and should'nt be touched with a bargepole. Let people make their own mind up, give knowldge yes, dictate no.


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## MIGNAL (6 Aug 2013)

Riclepp. I bought 4 AI MkII chisels not long after they were first produced. I don't understand your comment 'I'm still polishing the backs'. All I had to do was sharpen them. The Backs just needed a quick few swipes on the finest stone, more to remove the burr than actually polishing them. That was the whole point of the MKII's - so accurately made (with the backs slightly hollow) that all you really need to do is a quick few swipes. It's only the last 0.5 mm's (or less) that matters anyway. In time the mirror finish has crept further up the back of the chisels but that's just with repeated sharpening.


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## riclepp (6 Aug 2013)

MIGNAL":2b0hcoeu said:


> Riclepp. I bought 4 AI MkII chisels not long after they were first produced. I don't understand your comment 'I'm still polishing the backs'. All I had to do was sharpen them. The Backs just needed a quick few swipes on the finest stone, more to remove the burr than actually polishing them. That was the whole point of the MKII's - so accurately made (with the backs slightly hollow) that all you really need to do is a quick few swipes. It's only the last 0.5 mm's (or less) that matters anyway. In time the mirror finish has crept further up the back of the chisels but that's just with repeated sharpening.




I got 11 to do, not still polishing one back of one chisel. And yes I agree it dose'nt take long, but work and what the wife wants me to do, it is taking a long time.


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## Jacob (6 Aug 2013)

riclepp":3eoxp4ze said:


> .......
> I am sure Jacob, you have a valuable wealth of knowledge and wisdom, but please just stop telling people that method x is the only way of doing it and all the rest are pants and should'nt be touched with a bargepole. Let people make their own mind up, give knowldge yes, dictate no.


Not telling, just asking and discussing. 
I agree with Mignal. 12 new good quality chisels = 12 minutes enough for the first honing, if that. Only an opinion - I could be wrong!


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## James C (6 Aug 2013)

You missed the part where he said that be hasnt had the time yet to finish what he started as he had other things to do. 

I'm the same sometimes I can only get in a few minutes here and there with everything else that goes on.


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## G S Haydon (6 Aug 2013)

Riclep, your a lucky man, I have a severe case of chisel envy! And of course prep as you wish, they are your chisels after all. Mignal has made the point I was going to, that these ones are made with a slight hollow I think too avoid the need to lap. But of course prepare as you wish.


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## riclepp (6 Aug 2013)

Jacob":ezi61qgo said:


> riclepp":ezi61qgo said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...




Not too sure where you got the twelve from Jacob, there is only eleven in the set. Unloess you know something that I dont :wink: 

http://www.ashleyilestoolstore.co.uk/in ... Path=50_51


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## Kalimna (6 Aug 2013)

I think that, in all the discussion in this thread so far, that something else has been missed. And I also think it boils down to what 'kind' of woodworker you are, and your reasons for putting a sharp edge to a piece of wood.
If you are someone who earns their living from producing as many joints/holes etc as quickly and efficiently as they can, then perhaps the cheaper end of the market is ideal, as quickly sharpening an edge is unlikely to add too much time to your work (unless it is truly dreadful steel that blunts when it looks at wood), and a tool that 'just does the job' is all you may require.
However, if, like me, you are purely a hobbyist with no aspiration of efficiency of time (and with the good fortune to be able to finance said hobby), then there is pleasure itself in the use of fine tools, and the preparation thereof. I am supremely fortunate to have a range of Blue Spruce chisels, both DT and bench, and a couple of Wenzloffs. I know I am at the lower end of the skill slope, and may invite ridicule from certain corners for my collection of tools, but I get pleasure from using these tools, which were my version of a diamond ring when my wife and I got engaged. (I think I got the better deal, by the way). I get pleasure from knowing that they are approaching the pinnacle of toolmakers craft and that I am using them. I will be 40 in a couple of years, and am hankering after a Conrad Sauer plane to celebrate this milestone . These tools inspire the user to do finer and finer work, in the way that Aldi tools, however perfectly usable they may be, do not.
I think a good analogy is the drinking of wine. A nice crystal glass changes not one iota the flavour of the wine contained within, but it feels so much nicer to drink a fine Bordeaux from such a glass than a pottery mug. If there is no other container available, then so be it. But why settle for 'good enough'? Why not aim for 'as good as can be'?

Apologies for the rambling nonsense above,
Adam 
Criticising people


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Aug 2013)

=D> =D> I enjoy working with beautiful tools, just as I enjoy cooking using beautiful knives, and riding beautiful motorcycles. It encourages me to do better. I do not need to justify this to anyone.   
Find what floats your boat and sod everyone else!


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## tobytools (6 Aug 2013)

Kalimna":1sssgsvp said:


> I think that, in all the discussion in this thread so far, that something else has been missed. And I also think it boils down to what 'kind' of woodworker you are, and your reasons for putting a sharp edge to a piece of wood.
> If you are someone who earns their living from producing as many joints/holes etc as quickly and efficiently as they can, then perhaps the cheaper end of the market is ideal, as quickly sharpening an edge is unlikely to add too much time to your work (unless it is truly dreadful steel that blunts when it looks at wood), and a tool that 'just does the job' is all you may require.
> However, if, like me, you are purely a hobbyist with no aspiration of efficiency of time (and with the good fortune to be able to finance said hobby), then there is pleasure itself in the use of fine tools, and the preparation thereof. I am supremely fortunate to have a range of Blue Spruce chisels, both DT and bench, and a couple of Wenzloffs. I know I am at the lower end of the skill slope, and may invite ridicule from certain corners for my collection of tools, but I get pleasure from using these tools, which were my version of a diamond ring when my wife and I got engaged. (I think I got the better deal, by the way). I get pleasure from knowing that they are approaching the pinnacle of toolmakers craft and that I am using them. I will be 40 in a couple of years, and am hankering after a Conrad Sauer plane to celebrate this milestone . These tools inspire the user to do finer and finer work, in the way that Aldi tools, however perfectly usable they may be, do not.
> I think a good analogy is the drinking of wine. A nice crystal glass changes not one iota the flavour of the wine contained within, but it feels so much nicer to drink a fine Bordeaux from such a glass than a pottery mug. If there is no other container available, then so be it. But why settle for 'good enough'? Why not aim for 'as good as can be'?
> ...



Well said Adam,


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## Vann (6 Aug 2013)

Kalimna":1sxu0p8x said:


> ...but I get pleasure from using these tools, which were my version of a diamond ring when my wife and I got engaged. (*I think I got the better deal*, by the way).


What? The wife or the tools... (you mean she got the lesser deal in marrying you?) :mrgreen: 

I'll get me coat...

Cheers, Vann.


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## bugbear (7 Aug 2013)

Kalimna":3pw3t0m1 said:


> .. but I get pleasure from using these tools...



Sufficient in and of itself.

BugBear


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## tobytools (12 Aug 2013)

I've ordered the Ashley iles mk2 bevel chisels sizes 3,6,19mm  just now also I've been banging on about a block plane so i got the quangsheng LA. Should be here is the next week. Wanted all LN just so i could name drop but i couldn't afford owell kept it British with the chisels. Why isn't there a good British block out there? 
TT


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## Vann (12 Aug 2013)

tobytools":2tseaii0 said:


> Why isn't there *a* good British block out there?


There is :!:




Unfortunately there's only the one - that's the prototype. It's never gone into production  

Cheers, Vann.


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## tobytools (13 Aug 2013)

Hi Vann, 
. will I go onto production and when? I was looking at Clifton tools last night an as I browsed there planes I did think ok, bullnose, shoulder, ect ect where's the block plane, strange they don't sell one as its a very Handy tool. O well QS will have to do. 
seeing your post last night Vann, I brought two lots of tools, one is a box full of bits and bobs with a few Jens init  and a box of wooden profile planes and bow saw, I couldn't halo my self I still love old job lots and the price was throw away. I'll keep you posted van only because I think there is a 711/2 on there like your lot
TT


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## Vann (13 Aug 2013)

tobytools":2pkntyr1 said:


> will I go onto production and when?


I don't know when, or even if.... I was sent that photo several years ago by someone on here (I don't know if I should say who - don't want to get anyone into trouble).

I've tried a Veritas LABP and their DX60. I find them both too heavy, and the LABP too bulky. I still use an English Stanley 110 - horrible though it is to adjust, I like it's weight. If the Clifton blockplane isn't too heavy I could well be in the market for one.

Cheers, Vann.


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## tobytools (13 Aug 2013)

Vann":d7jdslsi said:


> tobytools":d7jdslsi said:
> 
> 
> > will I go onto production and when?
> ...


hi Vann, I might email Clifton and see what's going on and if they will bring one out, 
I'm the opposite I like the Veritas's weight feels good in my hand and that's what its about. 
I've been looming and the "new" Stanley sweetheart tools what can you tell me about them? Any good? And why have they continued to use the SW logo ect?
Thanks
TT


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## riclepp (13 Aug 2013)

Hi TT

I have both Veritas and QS Planes, Oh and a few Cliftons, and to be honest I like them all. All the weight is similar bar a few ounces here and there. Once set up and sharp they will do anything you ask them to do (within reason of course). Treat them right you wil get many, many years loyal service from them. I was goining to go LN, for the simple reason is that I could, but the tight pineappled side of me said no.

So have fun with them, but don' drop them


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## Vann (13 Aug 2013)

tobytools":1msq9t12 said:


> I've been looming and the "new" Stanley sweetheart tools what can you tell me about them? Any good? And why have they continued to use the SW logo ect?


Stanley have revived the SW logo as a marketting ploy for their "premium" range of handtools. From the little I've read their SW chisels are fine.

I post comments on the planes your "blockplane" thread.

Cheers, Vann.


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## tobytools (13 Aug 2013)

vann your needed on another thread, and i need your help to 
thanks TT


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## marcros (13 Aug 2013)

Vann":2puauqky said:


> tobytools":2puauqky said:
> 
> 
> > I've been looming and the "new" Stanley sweetheart tools what can you tell me about them? Any good? And why have they continued to use the SW logo ect?
> ...



A good marketing exercise at that. Revive a brand name that was valued for quality and apply it to the new premium range. Too bad that they dont live up to the name, or at least dont consistently live up to it. The good ones appear to be very good- IIRC Jacob was singing the praises of one, a no 4 I think.


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