# Teaching woodwork to school kids



## trumpetmonkey (20 Feb 2010)

I have been asked by my local junior school to teach basic woodworking to Year 6 kids (aged 10 and 11), in groups of 2 or 3 once a week, as a volunteer.

Any tips or links to resources to help me work out an approach?

First session is this Monday! I plan to get them to draw their name or initials in bold straight lines on a plank of wood then cover the lines with rows of nails, as an exercise in marking out and using a hammer.


----------



## Smudger (20 Feb 2010)

You need to read the National Curriculum for Design & Technology here.

You will see from there that DT in schools is also (mostly) about choosing the right tools and exploring different methods and only a small part is about skills at Key Stage 2. It might be better to ask them, perhaps with a limited palette of tools, how they would complete the task, to try it and evaluate it, and then move on to a finished product.

You should also (if you haven't already) have a police check, and some sort of contract so that you, and the school, are insured. Kids can find some very inventive ways of hurting themselves, especially with hammers.

You need to discuss your plans with the class teacher, as not all kids will be capable of undertaking the same activities, some will be well in advance of others. If a kid runs through your activity very fast you need some extension ideas ready to go for them.


----------



## Mr Ed (20 Feb 2010)

trumpetmonkey":30lawqef said:


> Any tips .



run away.......



Seriously though, its great people are willing to volunteer and do things like this. I know my own limitations well enough to know I couldn't do it, so I have no advice, but best of luck.

Ed


----------



## mrfixit (20 Feb 2010)

s'How I got started. :lol: 







Seriously, check your insurance.


----------



## Mike Wingate (20 Feb 2010)

Have you got personal liability insurance. £2m should be enough. I am a tech teacher. Avoid group work,otherwise one kid will hammer nails held by a second kid. Ask before you touch, kids and tools. Aprons and safety glasses, no trainers. Hair needs tying back, no loose clothes. Submit your lesson plan to the regular teacher prior to the lesson. Have you done your H&S audit of tools, processes and other possible dangers? Enjoy


----------



## mrfixit (20 Feb 2010)

Makes you wonder how we survived? By the time I was twelve (1972), we were casting aluminum copies of action man and I made a set of forged cold chisels and G-Clamps. All in nothing more protective than school uniform.

Just make sure YOU are fully covered. The kids will love it. :wink:


----------



## woodbloke (20 Feb 2010)

trumpetmonkey":2laymjn7 said:


> I have been asked by my local junior school to teach basic woodworking to Year 6 kids (aged 10 and 11), in groups of 2 or 3 once a week, as a volunteer.
> 
> Any tips or links to resources to help me work out an approach?
> 
> First session is this Monday! I plan to get them to draw their name or initials in bold straight lines on a plank of wood then cover the lines with rows of nails, as an exercise in marking out and using a hammer.


Beware on this one...you could be stepping into a minefield here. Make sure that you've got insurance and you're up to speed on all the elfn'safety stuff. Ensure that a qualified teacher is in the room with you at *all* times, never turn your back on them, and if you do, grow eyes in the back of your head. However tempting, do *not* touch them (sometimes it's easier to place a child's hand in the correct position by physically getting hold of it)
Emphasize tool safety...one or two horror stories always help :wink: 
Teaching children at that age I found a bit disheartening. Tools are made for adults and children at that age don't have the physical strength to weild them properly, so I think you're on a bit of hiding to nothing, but the best of luck - Rob...20 years at the chalk face, last of the old woodwork teachers :wink:


----------



## eggflan (20 Feb 2010)

The really sad thing is the replies you have had already , the first thing that people come up with is , Make sure your insured and Dont touch the kids etc.

Its really a shame that it has come to this , our local comp (accross the road from my house) has done away with its woodwork department altogether :roll: 

Guess its just easier to press a few buttons on a pc and get the big machine to do all the work for you ..

The only advice i would give is count all the tools back in at the end of the lesson to make sure they are all there ...


----------



## trumpetmonkey (20 Feb 2010)

Hello all thanks for the replies. Yes I am CRB checked since already been helping out in the classroom. I raised the insurance issues with the teacher before but haven't got a clear answer. She is just very keen for me to be involved and get on with it! I do need to get this straight though.

It'll only be 2 kids at a time.

Thanks Smudger for the national curriculum link, that is helpful. They don't seem to be teaching much DT at the school at the moment, but I'm not sure.

Eggflan yes it is a bit sad all the barriers to the whole thing. Check out this really interesting article about the failings of our academic focussed/risk averse education system compared to the more holistic approach of South Africa: 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article6975610.ece Or if you don't have the time here is a telling quote:

'...In London she was judged “highly academic”. In South Africa she was designated “special needs”. Pretoria, the state capital, was teeming with the children of diplomats and NGO workers from all over the world and educationists there were used to dealing with the offspring of their international visitors. “Don’t worry,” the child psychologist told me, “we see this all the time with children from your private and public [state] schools. Your system just doesn’t develop the whole child.”

Rob, I have a couple of horror stories and scars to prove it so i may start with that! And I was wondering how much the kids will be capable of, I guess I'll have to tailor things as I go along. I hope it won't be too frustrating, for them or me!

So, apart from all the red tape stuff, back to the original question - any suggestions for simple tasks or projects to get them started on?


----------



## trumpetmonkey (20 Feb 2010)

This is weird, my posts keep showing up blank...

*You had a space at the end of the link, before the [ of the close tag 
DaveL*


----------



## trumpetmonkey (20 Feb 2010)

Hello all thanks for the replies. Yes I am CRB checked since already been helping out in the classroom. I raised the insurance issues with the teacher before but haven't got a clear answer. She is just very keen for me to be involved and get on with it! I do need to get this straight though.

It'll only be 2 kids at a time.

Thanks Smudger for the national curriculum link, that is helpful. They don't seem to be teaching much DT at the school at the moment, but I'm not sure.

Eggflan yes it is a bit sad all the barriers to the whole thing. 

Rob, I have a couple of horror stories and scars to prove it so i may start with that! And I was wondering how much the kids will be capable of, I guess I'll have to tailor things as I go along. I hope it won't be too frustrating, for them or me!

So, apart from all the red tape stuff, back to the original question - any suggestions for simple tasks or projects to get them started on?


----------



## Paul Chapman (20 Feb 2010)

trumpetmonkey":2f0qsuea said:


> back to the original question - any suggestions for simple tasks or projects to get them started on?



Well, I'd teach it the way it used to be done. How to plane a piece of wood; how to mark out; how to saw; how to chisel. Then start to put all those skills into practice and make a few joints. Then use that to make a few basic objects.

One of the excellent things we used to have in my woodworking classroom back in the 1950s was examples of all the different joints on the wall and examples of things made using those joints. It gave us all something to aspire to. And it gave the teacher something to refer to when he was explaining things - you need to make it visual so that the kids know what you are talking about.

Without teaching the kids the basics, there's not much point.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## woodbloke (20 Feb 2010)

Tea pot stand :lol: - Rob


----------



## Racers (20 Feb 2010)

Hi,

I would check your CRB, my wife is a TA she started work at agency so sge needed a CRB check, then for year in a school so she had to have a CRB check, then again for the same agency so she needed a CRB check! it seems you need one for each job even if you have no break in employment.


Pete


----------



## Smudger (20 Feb 2010)

Paul Chapman":2rgks5rs said:


> trumpetmonkey":2rgks5rs said:
> 
> 
> > back to the original question - any suggestions for simple tasks or projects to get them started on?
> ...



That's appropriate for a Carpentry and Joinery course in KS4, but these kids are 10. The school won't have the equipment or expertise to mainatin it if they have - if they had anyone half-way decent at DT they wouldn't be asking for volunteers. These kids need to learn about planning and evaluation, choosing the right tools and materials. Remember, they'll have a couple of hours and then nothing for what - half a term? 2 kids at a time, class of 25, helper sees the kids every 12 weeks or so.


----------



## Mike Wingate (20 Feb 2010)

Take care with the tools. My Grammar school kids mostly think that a marking gauge is a small hammer with a nail stuck in it.


----------



## Mike Wingate (20 Feb 2010)

You can all guess what they think a rosewood mortise gauge is for!


----------



## big soft moose (20 Feb 2010)

Smudger":166cq3k1 said:


> Paul Chapman":166cq3k1 said:
> 
> 
> > trumpetmonkey":166cq3k1 said:
> ...



personally i reckon the kids will lose interest if theres too much theory and not enough practice - they need to be making something worthwhile but simple

when I was 8 I made a teapot stand (ply backing, 4 pieces of ash mitre cut and a ceramic tile in the middle, tile glued on, ash eding nailed on with pins then varnished - job done) which my mum is still using today , and then when I was about ten I made a little stool ( softwoods and blockboard top with lipping) which again is still in use in my mums house some 27 years later.

The main thing these kids need to learn is that making things in wood is fun - everything else (except safety) is secondary to that - the theory of joints, planing, etc can come later for those that want to pursue it.


----------



## Smudger (20 Feb 2010)

In order to teach this






you have to look like this


----------



## Smudger (20 Feb 2010)

BSM - your point is sensible, but only if you bear in mind the circumstances. If this is the first experience these kids have of working with wood - or any resistant materials - and there is no real equipment, no workshop and no history of proper DT - how are they going to be engaged by making something?
Better to get them making something out of balsa and gluing it which they can enjoy than making them practice something they find difficult, but not for long enough to feel they have made progress. And at the end have something that they won't really care about.

My honest feeling is that the OP is on to a hiding to nothing, and should as someone else said, run a mile. If he continues he needs to look at the National Curriculum, some DT schemes of work for KS2 and prepare some proper plans, discuss them with the treacher/head and then set out. That isn't going to happen by Monday. DT teachers are trained for years before they are allowed to maim children professionally, and a good one is quite a find.


----------



## woodbloke (20 Feb 2010)

Smudger":15uu73lq said:


> My honest feeling is that the OP is on to a hiding to nothing, and should as someone else said, run a mile.



Agreed...as I said earlier Dick - Rob


----------



## Paul Chapman (20 Feb 2010)

Smudger":fkgp1cyv said:


> Paul Chapman":fkgp1cyv said:
> 
> 
> > trumpetmonkey":fkgp1cyv said:
> ...



All sounds a bit of a waste of time then. I suppose, eventually, some of them (when they grow up) will find this forum and then ask us how to plane a piece of wood........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## big soft moose (20 Feb 2010)

Smudger":im6rpmhh said:


> BSM - your point is sensible, but only if you bear in mind the circumstances. If this is the first experience these kids have of working with wood - or any resistant materials - and there is no real equipment, no workshop and no history of proper DT - how are they going to be engaged by making something?
> Better to get them making something out of balsa and gluing it which they can enjoy than making them practice something they find difficult, but not for long enough to feel they have made progress. And at the end have something that they won't really care about.



you are right - but if i recall correctly and it was quite a while ago, the total tools and equipment required for the teapot stand was a hammer, some sand paper,some glue, and the varnish and brush - the square backboard and the mitres were ready cut by Mr Bush, though two lucky lads got to "help" him with that ( for help read passing him the wood while he did the sawing). and we did it at the little desks in our gclassroom on some newspaper

that was our first experience of resistant materials and i can still recall being dead dead proud of myself when i took it home to give to mummy (and insisting we took it with us to show my grandad when we went to visit) - that experience, which as i said was my first of working with wood has stayed with me for 29 years and is directly linked to the culmination of setting up my own shop with saw tables, lathes and who knows what else



Smudger":im6rpmhh said:


> My honest feeling is that the OP is on to a hiding to nothing, and should as someone else said, run a mile. If he continues he needs to look at the National Curriculum, some DT schemes of work for KS2 and prepare some proper plans, discuss them with the treacher/head and then set out. That isn't going to happen by Monday. DT teachers are trained for years before they are allowed to maim children professionally, and a good one is quite a find.



I totally agree about this - mr bush was a tech teacher from the "big" school who came down to work with us one friday a week - expecting an unqualified volunteer to do this work is a different kettle of fish. I have done it in my days as a ranger doing stuff like building bird boxes to put up in the school grounds ( IIRC we ready cut all the parts and pilot drilled the holes before hand and the kids nailed them together) but again in this capacity I was a proffesional and crucially covered by my employers insurance.

The OP absolutely must get the insurance issue clarified and stated in writing by the head - the teacher just wanting you to get stuck in without this is just not good enough (especially when you consider that in the worst case an uninsured law suit could cost you your house and make your family homeless)


----------



## trumpetmonkey (20 Feb 2010)

Ha ha, thanks for the discouragement! Some fair points but we'll see how it goes. I'm not a proper teacher and not pretending to be but my teacher friend seems to think I will be a helpful influence on the kids. 

My hope is that I will see a spark of genuine interest/aptitude in a minority of the kids which we can then find ways to build on - hopefully some of the kids that are 'difficult' in the more academic context. There is no way I can give any serious training to the whole class with such limited time, I realise that.


----------



## woodsworth (21 Feb 2010)

Stack animals!

They are fun to make and because it is with a scroll saw it is difficult for them to cut themselves. I used to teach woodworking to mostly single mums and teenagers in a facility that rented out bench space and tool use by the hour or by membership. When they brought in even smaller children i amused them with stack animals. They loved sitting at the scroll saw cutting out the shapes and then gluing them together. They had an animal quick enough that it kept them interested enough. 

I can't seem to find any pictures on google but have some that I did all those years ago with my son. I'll take some pictures when i get home from work.


----------



## Aled Dafis (21 Feb 2010)

Trumpet Monkey, do you have a scroll saw? This is about as safe as it gets in a school situation. I usually show the kids that it can't hurt them by holding my finger against the (moving) blade, yes it gets a few screetch's from some kids, but most are OK with using the machine after this. I find that they can do more damage with a coping saw.

We do a nice little project with year 7 where they cut out a face from 6mm mdf/ply and then use a silple push/pull "Y" shaped mechanism to move the ears/horns/hair up and down. Mechanisms feature strongly in the KS3 curriculum, but I'm not sure how aplicable this is to KS2, lots of fun though, and at that age that's what's most important.

I'll try and sketch up how it's assembled.

Cheers

Aled


----------



## mrfixit (21 Feb 2010)

Sad thing is, the kids will be the least of your problems and see it for what it is. They'll hang on your every word and have fun making things while learning new skills at the same time.

It's the parents, teachers groups, insurance Co's and local government nabobs that will be having the vapors.


----------



## toolsntat (21 Feb 2010)

Aled Dafis":24wnj9ad said:


> Trumpet Monkey, do you have a scroll saw? This is about as safe as it gets in a school situation. I usually show the kids that it can't hurt them by holding my finger against the (moving) blade, yes it gets a few screetch's from some kids, but most are OK with using the machine after this. I find that they can do more damage with a coping saw.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Aled



Scary stuff :shock: :shock: 

Lets hope they don`t try the same with a bandsaw one day :roll: :roll: 

Andy


----------



## Aled Dafis (21 Feb 2010)

Here's a quick (and I do mean quick) sketch of the prject we do with Year 7.







You could prepare the linkages in advance, so that's all the kids need to do is to draw out the outlines of the face, cut them out on the scroll saw, drill the holes and assemble. They could even paint the faces in their "art" class.

I would advise that you cut the dowels a little longer than I've shown on the sketch in order to glue on a small retaining block so that the linkages don't fall off when they play with them.

Cheers

Aled


----------



## woodsworth (21 Feb 2010)

A bit cold for floor leveling today. So here are a few examples of stack animals that can be made on the scroll saw. 











So much fun and they can paint them in art class after.


----------



## Richard D (21 Feb 2010)

I have a horrible feeling that what is taught in schools these days as Design & Technology is a world away from the woodwork I learned at school 30 years ago. By the age of 12 we were up to our elbows in a red hot forge in metalwork classes, and had pretty free reign with all of the hand tools in woodwork. Shame, really. My woodworking skills are *nothing* to shout about, but at least I know how to saw straight, plane square and cut a halfway passable joint. None of which you can learn by writing out a set of Learning Obectives or listing design criteria. Perhaps that was why the chap who sold me a marking gauge at a car boot sale expressed surprise that anyone under 50 knew what it actually was.


----------



## jlawrence (21 Feb 2010)

Nowadays I'd start with a couple of vids of what can happen if you get it wrong with tools - there's bound to be plenty on the net. Then show them that it is possible to use them safely.
With regards to a scroll saw, I'd never show them that you can touch the blade - imagine is they then go home and try it with daddy's chop saw.
enhanced CRB, insurance, lesson plan. Then crack on. Yes, always ask before touching - but that's no different in schools to any other environment with kids. It's not difficult to ask, it just takes getting used to a different way of doing things - make it a habit and it becomes easy.


----------



## nanscombe (21 Feb 2010)

jlawrence":1e7hryyc said:


> ... enhanced CRB, insurance, lesson plan. Then crack on. Yes, always ask before touching - but that's no different in schools to any other environment with kids...



Would you need to also register with the ISA?


Registration seems to be for volunteers but it is over, and above, CRB's etc.



Aaaaaarrgghh - Just trying to post URL to the Independant Safeguarding Authority.


----------



## jimi43 (21 Feb 2010)

So I take it a tablesaw is out?

 

I remember when I was a kid going to a lecture at a local comprehensive by a guy whose name was something like "Bomber Harris" where we were shown the benefits of different types of explosive materials...

My mum's garden shed had a huge hole in it after that lecture...I made some gunpowder...took a Bunsen burner apart and made a cannon....Jetex fuses...AH! Those were the days....

I suppose times have changed a tad!

 

Jim


----------



## nanscombe (21 Feb 2010)

jimi43":wgjbhju5 said:


> ...Jetex fuses...AH! Those were the days....
> ...



Ho, ho. Jetex I haven't heard that name for a long while. I'm not old enough to have used them but my dad showed me his old motor and told me a few stories about it. :twisted:

Funny, you can't seem to have any *harmless* fun like that these days without half a dozen armed coppers breaking your door down. :?


On a previous note, I should have said that I believe that ISA registration is on a one off basis and is free for volunteers. If you work, or volunteer, with children or vulnerable adults on a regular basis you may need to register.


----------



## Modernist (21 Feb 2010)

You don't have to be at school. This was the result of my daughter throwing an "empty" can of hairspray into the rubbish in the incinerator. The can ended up concertina'd against the house wall and must have been near supersonic on the way :shock: :shock:


----------



## trumpetmonkey (22 Feb 2010)

Modernist that hairspray incident is very cool and reminds me of a reckless but memorable incident in the scouts. 

Jimi43 a favourite in my chemistry classes was to make water cannons out of the bunsen burners by filling them from the taps before turning the gas full on. I also remember a classmate covering a sink bottom with ethanol and lighting it. Our chemistry teacher pretty much turned a blind eye to these things!!

Hmm, I should probably emphasise that am a bit more mature now, honest. :roll: 

Thanks for all the comments all appreciated.

Nanscombe, looks like the ISA thing is not fully in force til July 2010. To some extent I'm relying on the school to be in charge of those things, having made my concerns about insurance etc pretty clear. And I am CRB checked for this school.



Aled Dafis":67ha5kba said:


> Trumpet Monkey, do you have a scroll saw? This is about as safe as it gets in a school situation. I usually show the kids that it can't hurt them by holding my finger against the (moving) blade



Well now, a scroll saw of that type with a very small up and down movement is about the first tool I invested in, as a school kid myself, after getting very excited about it at a woodworking show. I think it worked via some sort of magnetic vibrating plate. And I could hold my finger against it, if I wanted to give elderly relatives a heart attack. It remained in my parent's house for many years while I was on my various travels, but wanting to reclaim it again recently we cannot remember what happened to it. So I bought a cheapo Clarke one as i needed one quick, and it works in a different way with a big up and down stroke on an arm. I am assuming it would not be safe to touch?! 

Thankyouvery much Aled and Woodsworth for the visuals, they are good ideas that I may use down the line.

Today i am going with a simple hammer and nails exercise. Oops, it's getting late, need to get going...


----------



## Mr T (22 Feb 2010)

Ignore the Jeremiahs, kids of that age like making bird boxes. Have fun.

Chris


----------



## woodbloke (22 Feb 2010)

Mr T":1464pn4d said:


> Ignore the Jeremiahs, kids of that age like making bird boxes. Have fun.
> 
> Chris


Indeed Chris, but I take it you've never been in front of a class of children in a workshop environment?.. (never mind just two) Whilst the idea is for them to enjoy themselves and do something which is now clearly beyond normal expectations, in my view the OP is well advised to ensure that all bases are covered :wink:...hence the advice from someone that knows - Rob


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

Mr T":2r3zvzgl said:


> Ignore the Jeremiahs, kids of that age like making bird boxes. Have fun.
> 
> Chris



You've had about a hundred years of teaching experience applied to this thread.

Glad to see professionals written off so glibly...


----------



## BMac (22 Feb 2010)

If you want another 30 I'll endorse everything the teachers have said because it's an absolute minefield out there and you cannot be too careful. 

Brendan


----------



## trumpetmonkey (22 Feb 2010)

Just got back, it went well. 2 boys, teacher is suggesting I just focus on them for 5 weeks - not exactly fair to the others but that's the plan.

I'm told I'm covered under the insurance as long as another teacher is present. They seemed to think it was ok to interpret that as another teacher being in next classroom (sight line through glazed partition). I'm doing it in a sort of hallway area between 2 classrooms.

I gave them one of my sawhorses each to work on and had them knocking small nails along the lines of their initials drawn on pre-cut bits of wood. I had them draw their initials in a boxy way within border lines I had pre-drawn, using a square and pencil. So it was very basic marking out and hammer and nail use. Then I planed a chamfered edge around each one and had them sand it all a bit. Took about an hour, since it took them some time hammering all those nails in.

One boy took to it well but was a bit weak on the hammer (I had a variety of weights and he preferred the smallest one). I kept having to remind hm to grip it well with fingers right round it. The other boy had less of a knack, struggled with holding the square tight against the edge, and the nails were all over the place, but he knocked them in pretty well. They both understood to hold the hammer near the end.

With just the 2 of them there were no problems with discipline etc, and just one hammered thumb but not too badly!


----------



## LocalOak (22 Feb 2010)

This is possibly slightly off topic but my woodwork teacher drummed an irritating yet useful mnemonic into my head - it's FEWTEL. Stands for Face side, face Edge, Width, Thickness, one End, Length. It was the order we were taught to prepare stock. Square a face side, then a face edge, then mark up and plane to width, then thickness, then square one end and and finally cut to length. 

I only took up woodworking a short while ago after 30 years of nothing, but that stuck and was useful in preparing stock. Not sure if it's still taught or is even considered the modern way to do it. But if you are going to teach these kids (and despite all the hurdles I think it's fantastic that you look like going ahead) would something similar be useful?


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

That sounds encouraging.

However - I think they are wrong in having the teacher in another room. For your own protection, that is not enough, let alone the kids'.


----------



## big soft moose (22 Feb 2010)

Smudger":1yi2p2a1 said:


> That sounds encouraging.
> 
> However - I think they are wrong in having the teacher in another room. For your own protection, that is not enough, let alone the kids'.



yep i agree with smudger - teacher present, means just that - present not in another room with partial line of sight but distracted by what is happening in their class.

consider two scenarios

a) what happens if one of the kids hurts himself badly - will the education authorities insurance loss adjuster agree that you are covered ? - and if not do you want to be left holding a very expensive baby

and

b) what if one of the boys alledges you touched him inappropriately ( I am not saying that you would , but kids have been known to make false allegations to get back at adults who have told them off etc) - are you happy that the other teacher will be sufficient witness to state categorically that the allegation is untrue ?

I can see the schools point of view in that they probably dont have the staff to provide the required level of cover, but for your own protection you need to nail these points down


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

Precisely. And those aren't fanciful scenarios, they really happen, all the time.
Also - the teacher must be in a position to hear what you say, if that is ever contested. 'Inappropriate language' is a wide category.

If you are going to work with the same kids for 5 weeks you need to sit down with their teacher and work out what their progression needs to be.


----------



## Mr T (22 Feb 2010)

I interpreted the original post to mean that woodwork would be taught to the children as an additional activity, meaning that it was to be a fun activity for the kids, outside of their normal school activities. Everyone piled in saying you have to check the curriculum etc etc. I think the children and teachers are under the thumb of central govt. too much. Why can't they have a bit of fun doing things with wood without all the rest of the regulatory bagagge that burdens them in class?

If my interpretation was wrong and .Trumpetmonkey, whose background I do not know, has been asked to teach a formal class to a curriculum I would suggest that is the job of a "proper" teacher, not someone who is good at woodwork.

Chris


----------



## Mr T (22 Feb 2010)

Also, I have "taught" woodwork to children of just that age. I cannot imaging a junior school having a "workshop". We had a few hammers and saws and covered the desks with MDF sheets to prevent damage. 

This was as an "out of school" activity, as I described in my previous post. The children and all enjoyed the sessions.

Chris


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

This isn't, it is during lesson time.
Which doesn't matter, because the same strictures apply whenever you work with kids in a school. Or kids in groups that you aren't related to anywhere. Which is obvious, if you think about it.

What's the problem with listening to people who know what they are talking about?

Also - what excuse would you make to Ofsted for ignoring the national curriculum when they come to visit?


----------



## woodbloke (22 Feb 2010)

Smudger":xnogm3ni said:


> That sounds encouraging.
> 
> However - I think they are wrong in having the teacher in another room. For your own protection, that is not enough, let alone the kids'.


I agree with Dick. In the room means _'in the room'_ not some loose interpretation. You actually need a qualified member of staff supervising you at all times. If you don't and something _does_ happen, then it's your word against theirs and current state of play means that you lose - Rob


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

> If my interpretation was wrong and .Trumpetmonkey, whose background I do not know, has been asked to teach a formal class to a curriculum I would suggest that is the job of a "proper" teacher, not someone who is good at woodwork.



I think that has been our point all along...


----------



## Mr T (22 Feb 2010)

Are you sayig that ofsted would want additional enrichment activities as I described to be national curriculum directed. If that is the case there is no hope and we're all doomed.


----------



## woodbloke (22 Feb 2010)

Mr T":1ss3mz5i said:


> Are you sayig that ofsted would want additional enrichment activities as I described to be national curriculum directed. If that is the case there is no hope and we're all doomed.


Yup, chapter and verse - Rob


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

It may be an enrichment activity (or it may be enhancement, it depends) but if it happens on the school premises then Ofsted are interested. If it happens during lesson time it has to be justified in terms of the national curriculum. It has to be related to a programme of study - now you can do that in all sorts of ways, but I bet it hasn't been attempted in this case.

You would also have to assure Ofsted that the person in charge is suitably qualified and trained (in H&S) and that adequate supervision (of them) was in place - lesson plans checked against schemes of work and so on.

The days of showing up in the classroom and doing whatever takes your fancy are long gone.

Put it round the other way, instead of only identifying with the OP - how would you feel if you were the parent of the kid who hit his thumb? What assurances would you want from the school? How would your child make up whatever he missed whilst he was out of the class, and was a bit of woodwork an adequate substitute?

I'm sorry to rant, but teaching is a considered, planned and justified process, in order to bring about learning in the kids - which is what matters and what Ofsted judge schools on. Some people here seem to think it is just random activities done for the hell of it.


----------



## Mr T (22 Feb 2010)

We are doomed, I think I'll go away and top myself now!

Goodbye

Chris


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

No. You are in a much better place educationally, where all kids get the same entitlement to the same sort of education wherever they are, no schools are allowed to ignore science (or maths as one I knew did) or teach rubbish history, or ignore anything they find hard. 

Kids are protected from predatory abusers (which would have avoided 4 deaths that I know of if it had been brought in earlier) and where parents are given some, albeit crude, idea of how well their kids are doing compared to other kids and their school compared to other schools. 

Parents now know that their children's teachers are graduates and meet a basic (or better) level of competence and knowledge.

There's a lot in there that I disagree with, but it's about detail, not principles.

As I say, give it a moment's thought.


----------



## Mr T (22 Feb 2010)

Just before I do the deed, I have to come back on that.

We home educated two of our children, they are now graduates, one is even training to be a teacher. I think that being taught for some of their educational life away from a school envirnment has given them independent enquiring minds, something that the current regimented system, bound by national curriculum and targets does not encourage.

Our youngest daughter went through the school system and, I believe, did not achieve her full potential because of the target orientated approach of the system. She hit her targets without any effort, the school did not give a toss whether she was being "stretched" as long as she attained her uninspiring "targets".

I could go on but we are getting off the subject. 

I still think Trumpetmonkey should have a go at bird boxes with the children, I think the RSPB have plans for making one from a 48" X 6" X1" board.

I'm now going to stick my head in the thicknesser!

Chris


----------



## trumpetmonkey (22 Feb 2010)

Mr T":3ellf39e said:


> I interpreted the original post to mean that woodwork would be taught to the children as an additional activity, meaning that it was to be a fun activity for the kids, outside of their normal school activities.



Mr T you have hit the nail on the head, thankyou. I do accept and take on board the important points made from those with teaching know-how, but still, Mr T you are a ray of light please refrain from topping yourself  

Here's how things are looking to me:

- The school apparently has no teacher with expertise or interest in Design Technology.

- Whatever basic stuff is done to try and meet Nat Curriculum requirements is primarily theoretical from what I can work out.

- I am not a qualified teacher, not professing to be, not being asked to be, but as an active member of this community who cares about the future of these kids, the teacher has put a degree of trust in me to be a good influence on them, at last these 2, and I am happy to help. This teacher is taking the initiative to make use of me based on a trusting relationship with me (I know her through church and the local community too), and in my opinion that is a better test of character than CRB checks etc, though I have that too.

- Having sat through lessons as a volunteer assistant up til now, I have seen a trainee teacher making a basic spelling mistake and a stand-in supply teacher teaching that like poles of magnets attract and that Mass and Weight are exactly the same thing, and telling a pupil she was wrong when in fact she was right. I didn't want to embarrass her by correcting her in front of the class. So I don't entirely share Smudger's reservations about my competence in comparison to that of 'properly trained' teachers. I don't mean to sound self righteous, I know I have plenty of limitations and I have every respect for teachers who can manage a large class, as I know I would struggle - but still you get my point. The small thing I am doing, I am capable of it.

- I am doing my best to get the red tape side of things sorted, and I will try to persuade them to have a teaching assistant present next week. I see the sense in these worst case scenario fears and would prefer to be safeguarded in every way, however the point I want to make is that these are all side issues!! To some extent it reminds me of the anglican church fretting about buildings and administration when people are dying on the streets etc. OK, forgive me if I'm going over the top. But the point is:

Kids need role models. 
Kids benefit from practical hands-on stuff that involves a degree of risk. Kids are suffering from the culture that tells them all adults are suspect.


----------



## trumpetmonkey (22 Feb 2010)

And I am working on the birdboxes idea, since the kids suggested it too.


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

Bird boxes are good. That is what Richmond College used to do in a very successful programme with older, learning-challenged kids. It has relevance and will keep kids interested through the year.

You can also get the teacher to bring in other aspects - I don't know the KS2 science curriculum, but there'll be something there you can use to discuss and learn about birds and their habits. If nothing else it could be part of PHSE (caring for the environment).

I am distressed that the school has no-one able to do DT, as (as far as I am aware) it is a requirement that they do, as a responsibility. 

But to be clear, if you are teaching kids you are acting as a teacher, which carries responsibilities to the kids and to yourself. I'm more worried about you than the kids, and I'm more worried about parents.

Having once been a mentor to PGCE students I agree about their levels of expertise in some cases, and supply teachers are often supply teachers for a good reason. But that's no excuse to cut corners!

Will you cut the parts for birdboxes yourself, or leave some for the kids to do? I'm pretty certain that our people used to let them do some of that with hacksaws, which they reckon are hard to hurt yourself with and fairly unbreakable, or tenon saws (harder to bend in half).

You could also do some design work - given the requirements of different species.

I can feel a scheme of work coming on - what sorts of birds do we have in the local area? How many of them would use nestboxes? What sorts of nest boxes would be appropriate? Design some - would they work? Make some - could you have done better? Put them out - do birds nest in them (too late for Y6 that one)?

Nope. I've retired!


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

Sorry, the echo got me, too.


----------



## big soft moose (22 Feb 2010)

trumpetmonkey":m5s36ak2 said:


> - I am doing my best to get the red tape side of things sorted, and I will try to persuade them to have a teaching assistant present next week. I see the sense in these worst case scenario fears and would prefer to be safeguarded in every way, however the point I want to make is that these are all side issues!! To some extent it reminds me of the anglican church fretting about buildings and administration when people are dying on the streets etc. OK, forgive me if I'm going over the top. But the point is:
> 
> Kids need role models.
> Kids benefit from practical hands-on stuff that involves a degree of risk. Kids are suffering from the culture that tells them all adults are suspect.



I agree with you on the latter point , but considering issues of insurance and child protection to be an unimportant side issue is a mistake - you are putting your livelihood, you and your families house, and your reputation on the line.

Now I understand that you are engaged in the "safe" end of woodworking but even hitting nails with hammers is not truly safe.

I was once running a bird box building event where a kid hit a galvanised nail and a bit of the head snapped off and flew up and hit him square in the eye.

In this case damage was relatively minor and although the parents tried to take legal action on a no win no fee ambulance chasing basis they eventually withdrew when it was made clear that my then employers would fight the case, but the crucial point is that had they pursued the suit and won *I would have been covered by my employers insurance*

Had the same thing happened to you today there would have been a good chance you would not have been covered and "negligently hazarding" damages can run to the hundreds of thousands of pounds, potentially enough to cost you your house and bankrupt you

Another excolleague of mine was once running an event when two kids attacked each other with the tools (in this instance scissors) - my mate reacted instinctively and grabbed hold of them to pull them apart.

however this innocent action had consequences when one of the little scrotes complained that he "didnt like the way my mate had touched him" - long story short the organisation stood by him and actions were eventually dropped but not before he had been branded a paedo and his reputation irrevocably trashed - there were parents muttering about no smoke without fire etc - he eventually had to give up his proffesion and change areas of the country - had he had an adult witness this would never have got that far

In the context of those kind of risks to you and your family is it still just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic to worry about the insurance and supervision

In my opinion it is not and I would be telling the school that you want a member of staff in the room at all times, and the insurance conditions in writing* before* running any further activities.


----------



## big soft moose (22 Feb 2010)

next box plans from the rspb here

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/Nestbox%2 ... 173857.pdf

I suggest that you cut the wood before hand and pilot drill the nail holes then the kids can nail them together - a logical step on from your nailing today - and bore the front hole with a brace and bit.

I'd also note that if you are only doing a few life is easier if you get some decent quality redwood , as cheap white wood tends to split when the nails go in.


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

Agree with that BSM, especially about pre-drilling. But urge giving it some context, discussion of birds' needs etc.
How about make some for the school grounds and some for kids to take home? That goes down well.


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

Could look at:
KS2 Science - Living Things - Habitats
KS2 Science - Plants and Animals in the Local Environment
KS2 Science - Unit 5_6H: Enquiry in environmental and technological contexts
KS2 D&T - Unit 6A: Shelters (At a stretch)
KS1/2 D&T - Unit 1D: Homes (May be a bit simple)

Look at the expected outcomes for each unit, as this will give you some idea of how to direct the work. The NC documents are good, and even if you don't use their schemes of work they provide a useful template.

To be honest, the class teacher should be doing all of this for you...


----------



## trumpetmonkey (22 Feb 2010)

Big Soft Moose, these stories are good for me to hear I realise that; I will stress the importance of another classroom assistant being present as I think that should be do-able. When I talk about it all being secondary, I don't mean that it's not important. It's just not the main point and yet it has been 90% of the discussion here. So anyway I am encouraged by the link to the bird box and other nitty gritty of what i can actually try and teach. 

Smudger I'll have a look at trying to integrate some of that national curriculum stuff. But the thing is I am barely scraping a living with my proper work and I simply can't afford to devote loads of time to this, it's already a bit of a sacrifice. And the teacher is already very busy and as we've mentioned already, this is just a bit extra, a bit of fun if you like but hopefully some learning too, whatever I do it's a bonus that the kids wouldn't have had otherwise.


----------



## Smudger (22 Feb 2010)

With all due respect (and I actually mean that for once) your personal 'safety' is NOT secondary.

I once broke up a serious fight between a couple of 15-year olds. Very violent, and I had to use force to separate them. One kid was hurt (by the other kid, not me). As a result a complaint was made against me by the aggressor whom I had stopped beating the victim half to death, and I ended up in a police station, being interviewed under caution by police officers I had been working with on an abuse case a few weeks earlier. 

My career/mortgage/family was at stake. I had the services of a good union and an experienced solicitor, paid for by my union. In the end the police found there was no case to answer - but it happens, and it can easily go pear-shaped. A friend lost not only his job, but his school (a specialist unit for disturbed kids) when a child made an unsubstantiated allegation against him. There were no grounds, evidence from other adults present said it didn't happen - but it took over a year to be resolved, and he just retired as a result.

With regard to the teacher - of course he/she is busy, that's what the job is. But he/she is also supposed to be covering all aspects of the National Curriculum already, so this shouldn't be an onerous burden.


----------



## big soft moose (22 Feb 2010)

trumpetmonkey":2q2jd71d said:


> Big Soft Moose, these stories are good for me to hear I realise that; I will stress the importance of another classroom assistant being present as I think that should be do-able. When I talk about it all being secondary, I don't mean that it's not important. It's just not the main point and yet it has been 90% of the discussion here. So anyway I am encouraged by the link to the bird box and other nitty gritty of what i can actually try and teach.
> .



yeah i appreciate that - its just that we dont want to see you (or anyone) putting themselves in an untenable situation through an excess of enthusiasm.

other simple projects


clothespeg teapot stand - could use to teach glueing and clamping up

making a bird table possibly too dificult for each child to do but they could work together making different bits to make one for the school grounds (assuming it has a suitable site)

letter holder another you do the cutting they fix together project - could use to teach use of screws etc.

trivet a bit more advanced if they did it from scratch , but you could cut the mortices first and leave them to glue up and finish


----------

