# Holtzapffel Chisel



## jimi43 (6 Oct 2010)

Some of you may remember I started out on the Holtzapffel journey with a beautiful old London Pattern screwdriver...

Well this week I carried on down that road with the acquisition of this...

First...a tiny little turning chisel and secondly some Cocobolo which had been stored for 25 years (should be nearly dry now!)







Now this little chisel is something special....

a) it is "new old stock" having been stored in a tool shop for Lord knows how long....

b) the name on it is the wonderful HOLTZAPFFEL....which regular readers of my BLOG will realise is a newly found interest of mine...the London makers of those beautiful old lathes!






I love these rare tools and this one is a virgin...having never had a handle...so this beautiful Cocobolo is going to be that first handle...and my first attempt at turning this fascinating "rosewood".

A bit of research on the Holtzapffel website indicates this would possibly be the handle design....






...I think #364 being the profile....

So using this as a plan...tomorrow or maybe this week at least...I am off to try out my skills on the lathe with this rather hard wood!

Just to practice and the more observant amongst you will already have noticed...I have been practicing on some lovely box wood stock...my second most favourite wood to date...






A bit more work on this octagonal handle....turning back a little more and thinning out the curves but I just love this wood...just got to find some old chisel to fit into it now!!! (oh and ALF...YOU started this!!! :wink: )

I also got some sonokeling, laurel and larger box....should be some fun there!

More later....

Jim

P.S.

I was going to post in the whiz around forum but I think this is broader than just turning wood...I want to continue this journey and see where it leads....not as far as a lathe I hope!!! That slope is WAY too slippery!


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## mtt.tr (6 Oct 2010)

What the link to your blog 

and interesting chisel


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2010)

mtt.tr":3hz7zgnf said:


> What the link to your blog
> 
> and interesting chisel



Just inserted it in my signature for you sir!

It is interesting indeed! 

Needs a nice new handle!

Jim


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## bugbear (6 Oct 2010)

jimi43":2e2xbp79 said:


> A bit of research on the Holtzapffel website



There is one? Wow.

BugBear


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## AndyT (6 Oct 2010)

I think Jimi must mean the online versions of the marvellous multi-volume "Turning and Mechanical manipulation" by Holtzapffel father and son. The scope was much wider than the title suggests - volume 2 for example has lots on planes, saws and files.

You can find it on Google Books and elsewhere - Internet Archive possibly, or the Edenfalls library - I don't have access to bookmarks from here at the moment.


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2010)

bugbear":26ja97bg said:


> jimi43":26ja97bg said:
> 
> 
> > A bit of research on the Holtzapffel website
> ...



Actually you are partially right...during my research of the Holtzapffel Site I trundled around Google and espied that picture on the More Woodturning Site....and I think now it may not be a Holtzapffel pattern!  

I did find this picture from the Science museum which shows a different handle shape altogether :






LINK TO CLEARER BUT COPYRIGHTED PICTURE

I prefer the second shape....and it will lend itself to the Cocobolo I think....

Off to fiddle this afternoon!

Jim


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2010)

I have 4 volumes of the Holtzapfel bibles if anyone requires references checking.


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2010)

Modernist":16rdjubc said:


> I have 4 volumes of the Holtzapfel bibles if anyone requires references checking.



Any chance of a scan of a chisel handle?

Many thanks in advance.

Jim


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2010)

jimi43":2awfcrlk said:


> Modernist":2awfcrlk said:
> 
> 
> > I have 4 volumes of the Holtzapfel bibles if anyone requires references checking.
> ...



I'll have a look


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2010)

Sorry the only ones I can see are already in this thread


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2010)

Modernist":1uolobni said:


> Sorry the only ones I can see are already in this thread



That's perfect info...at least I am on the right track

Are they the drawing shape or the beautiful colour pics shape?

Jim


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2010)

The drawing is from the book


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2010)

Modernist":2yb4ji95 said:


> The drawing is from the book



Darn it!  

Guess which one I am half way through turning!?

 

Oh well...I have plenty Cocobolo...and this stuff is um...challenging to say the least but beeeeeautiful to finish...it is like silk...and the grain is astounding....

I think I will make something else with this handle and get back to the drawing design for this little chisel...

Do you know much about Holtzapffel lathes?

I think that they must me a hell of a lot smaller than they look in pictures as this chisel is tiny....

Jim


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## AndyT (6 Oct 2010)

Modernist":pnqoayba said:


> The drawing is from the book



Indeed it is - vol2 - as visible to read on-line here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/turningmechanica02holtuoft#page/512/mode/2up

or download from the links already mentioned.

If you want to see a Holtzapffel lathe close up, I know for sure that the Museum of London has one, which I've seen on display in their basement gallery. However, they are in the midst of revising their displays and their on-line resources at the present. This page:

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/English/Collections/OnlineResources/ 
will soon let you search across their display collections - or you could phone and ask. (Their selection of Roman tools is quite good too.)


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2010)

Andy...some great links there mate!

I really love the Holtzapffel book on flipper...I can see I shall be reading that for a while!

I am starting to form the handle as per the book...it is a little chunky yet and I need to get the ferrule part down and the far end knob smaller and more acute but it's getting there...






A bit of UV and this will go nearly black but with that amazing grain as a background...

I love this stuff!






It is so tactile and really smoothes easily with abrasives and 3M MicroMesh...

Now...what did I do with my UV lamp!

More tomorrow when I refine the shape.....

Jim


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## mtt.tr (7 Oct 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-HOLTZAPF...ltDomain_0&hash=item5640015a1c#ht_1874wt_1137

From the bay might be off interest for the handle


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## jimi43 (7 Oct 2010)

mtt.tr":1ez48lrq said:


> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-HOLTZAPF...ltDomain_0&hash=item5640015a1c#ht_1874wt_1137
> 
> From the bay might be off interest for the handle



Ever feel that you should wait until other research is in!  

That is like the other handle...the one I just changed....um....

Ok...looks like two handles are in the offing...and we'll have to see what looks the best...

Thanks for the link mtt.tr...I somehow missed that one!

Jim


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## mtt.tr (7 Oct 2010)

They also have rulers on the bay £95 so far bargain


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## jimi43 (7 Oct 2010)

mtt.tr":3n74s15l said:


> They also have rulers on the bay £95 so far bargain



These things go for a bomb don't they!?

I might even dig into my prize Rio stock later! 8) 

Jim


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2010)

AndyT":2zgnr3ri said:


> If you want to see a Holtzapffel lathe close up, I know for sure that the Museum of London has one, which I've seen on display in their basement gallery.



If anyone is interested in ornamental lathes in general, this is a "key" site:

http://www.turners.org/default.htm

There's a rather fine ornamental lathe by Hines (of Norwich) in the Bridewell museum (in Norwich...)

Oh yeah - in general the lathes are quite small, since the workpieces are quite often in ivory!

BugBear


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## AndyT (7 Oct 2010)

Jimi, I feel a new slope calling you...here's the one from the bay with some of its brothers and sisters...

http://www.jimbodetools.com/cart.php?m=search_results&search=holtzapffel&sort=0&asc=asc&viewAll=1


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2010)

AndyT":a48bkrfq said:


> Jimi, I feel a new slope calling you...here's the one from the bay with some of its brothers and sisters...
> 
> http://www.jimbodetools.com/cart.php?m=search_results&search=holtzapffel&sort=0&asc=asc&viewAll=1



Goniostats! AKA sharpening jig from hell...

BugBear


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## jimi43 (8 Oct 2010)

I think I may be ok on this slope as long as I keep to tools only and don't start going down the lathe piste! Mind you...I espied a wrecked Holtzapffel lathe on fleaBay the other week and it went for hundreds even though most of the wood had perished by storing it under water in a barn!!!

Ok....those of you that are used to me by now will realise I tend to drift off at major tangents and weird techniques....it is part of my brain that I want to know why about everything that happens...

This time it was the comment on the Net that Cocobolo darkens with age to beautiful near black/brown rosewood colour...tracing back its roots (pun intended!)

SO...I think...what element is causing this darkening...some say over a short time.

I wanted to get dark dark...near rosewood colour and I wasn't about to wait years for it to happen...

So...how can it darken...what causes it? Is it air...oxidation? Is it perhaps tannin and oil in the wood darkening over time...or is it (as I suspected) light...sunlight...as the stock piece I had was near black where it had been in the sun.

Then...sitting here pondering this last night...I figured it must be sunlight...or more precisely...UV in the light..so what about a bit of suntanning for this handle?

My wife was immediately dispatched to get her sunlamp...which was turned on and laid over the rough first turn handle...

1hr full power...then another...then another...and guess what....

BEFORE THE TANNING SESSION:







..and after a few hours in the "sun"....






....amazing isn't it!!!

Don'tcha just love it when a plan comes together!!! 8) 

More turning tomorrow! (and more tanning sessions!)

Jim


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## Evergreen (9 Oct 2010)

Brilliant bit of logic to use a UV lamp, Jimi.

But now you'll need a small device to rotate the handle slowly so that it tans evenly. Something powered by clockwork maybe? Or a hampster in a treadmill?


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## bugbear (11 Oct 2010)

Evergreen":26n46rb9 said:


> Brilliant bit of logic to use a UV lamp, Jimi.
> 
> But now you'll need a small device to rotate the handle slowly so that it tans evenly. Something powered by clockwork maybe? Or a hampster in a treadmill?



Powered barbeque spit?

BugBear


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## jimi43 (11 Oct 2010)

bugbear":1v20gsvm said:


> Evergreen":1v20gsvm said:
> 
> 
> > Brilliant bit of logic to use a UV lamp, Jimi.
> ...



Nah....I'll just get the missus to turn it over when she does!

   

Well...after the success of the UV theory...I had to destroy all the hard work and continue whittling the stock to the finished product. The sun came out today and unusually for me I was off work...I hit the lathe..

I think I have got it about right but I am not an expert turner...I enjoy it but I need more practice...so excuse the amateur work but here ya go....






The backdrop is the original Cocobolo blank stock...I have loads left...the ML1 was even fired up in anger too so I could make the ferrule...that came out really well....






The shape needed to be sleeker...I think that bit was the most fun...






I even worked out how to round off the end to get rid of the tailstock centre hole...






Of course....this will need to get the UV treatment but I really love this wood...  

Why are all the species I love so expensive!!  

Now to expand the hole and mount the steel....should be a laugh!!

Cheers guys and gals

Jim


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## Evergreen (11 Oct 2010)

That grain pattern is indeed beautiful, Jimi, but do you think that it might warp in time because you've turned it to such a slender shape?

The reason I ask is that I've a vintage chisel with a best London pattern boxwood handle and over the years, it's developed a gentle curve down its length. I suspect this was because the chisel is a small size and the handle is relatively slim.


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## jimi43 (11 Oct 2010)

Evergreen":1l3n3yml said:


> That grain pattern is indeed beautiful, Jimi, but do you think that it might warp in time because you've turned it to such a slender shape?
> 
> The reason I ask is that I've a vintage chisel with a best London pattern boxwood handle and over the years, it's developed a gentle curve down its length. I suspect this was because the chisel is a small size and the handle is relatively slim.



Hi EG

I had thought that but the wood has been stored for 25 years by a guy whose father was a turner...so I think it is stable enough. The wood is rock hard....

I guess it might...we shall have to see and then I guess I will have to make anouther one.

I wanted to follow the pattern in the diagram. I may make a lozenge shaped one too ....the one in the photos of sets at the Science Museum

Cheers

Jim


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## jimi43 (11 Oct 2010)

After opening the hole up a bit I fitted the chisel to the handle and it sat really snugly in the recess....






These are quite small turning chisels for delicate work and I think it will fit in fine in my workshop...






I'm really pleased with the result....this is one lovely chisel that after many decades in a drawer...will finally get to make some shavings...

Will try it out this week and let you all know how it goes...






I think I will try it out on my box wood octagon handle which is half way through...it is going to be a nice little turnscrew.

I also fired up the kiln and hardened the Spiers plane replacement iron this afternoon....more on that thread....

Cheers

Jimi


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## Evergreen (12 Oct 2010)

Hi Jimi

That really looks the business.

Did you fit the blade with just a friction fit or did you use epoxy as well?

I'll be interested to hear how the blade holds an edge. My experience of vintage chisels is that they usually sharpen easily but edge retention can be a bit variable.


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## jimi43 (12 Oct 2010)

> Did you fit the blade with just a friction fit or did you use epoxy as well?



It's just a friction fit. I could add "for now"....but I think "for good" is more likely...I can't see it coming out.  

I thought the shape was strange...but there is a method in their design...

Will let you know how it cuts!

Jim


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## Eric The Viking (13 Oct 2010)

Jimi,

Your UV technique made me smile: 

As a kid I knew a couple who made 'Victorian' pub mirrors. They'd take an ordinary bevelled mirror, cut out the lettering using a mounted razor blade fragment as a scraper and carefully paint-in the colours. Once tidy it was buried in the garden for three months. 

They sold loads :shock: 

Having said that, your chisel (er, turning tool) is a different matter - it's not pretending to be anything it isn't, and what it _is_, is simple and beautiful. 

I'm tempted to try UV on a few things myself, as I've got an old EPROM eraser that won't get much use otherwise! I'm wondering if it would work to get ornament marks off yellow pine, for example.


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