# Help with a bit of a dilemma



## dm65 (3 Sep 2014)

Evening chaps and chapesses

I am in an old house with old walls whose plaster is mainly held on with wallpaper

As my chimney breast is particularly manky, I decided to have a bit of a nose - see below for resulting slight damage when giving a loose bit of plasterboard a tug






Ok, so now I am in this mess, I thought I'd remove the rest with a view to clearing out the original opening which I would then get plastered etc which could perhaps have a stove type fire of some sort





Thankfully, I managed to retain the original cornice but now I am swinging towards redoing the brickwork on the infill (which I think my mum may have done one weekend) and then having a flat front again and perhaps a wall hung or inset fire with telly above

So, who's for open and who's for flat ??

I can't decide myself and am rubbish with designy type stuff so thought I'd see what you lot think


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## RossJarvis (3 Sep 2014)

I'd definitely go for open, so much more character.

You could just plasterboard over everything and have a clean box-like hole into which a large vase of flowers or some such, could be stuffed. Maybe with a tasteful spotlight above it. You just want to be careful about draughts etc, so possibly stick a wedge of Celotex into the chimney hole if there is one.


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## dm65 (3 Sep 2014)

Cheers Ross

So that's one vote for open (don't know about the flowers tho)

I was thinking I'd just use some cement board to block the chimney though it currently still has the original opening which has had a liner dropped in at some point (you can just see it where I removed the bricks (all done by hand btw, no hammer involved !)




Still has the gas line as well for that matter


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2014)

Don't forget if you block the chimney at the bottom, it needs blocking at the top as well otherwise your walls will get damp.


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## dm65 (3 Sep 2014)

Well pointed out Phil but does that still matter if there is a liner is in the chimney ?


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## Ghengis (3 Sep 2014)

YES


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## RossJarvis (4 Sep 2014)

Ah then, that means he needs a very long, round bit of Celotex that goes round corners........or a ladder :lol: 

But seriously, does it need blocking, or a kind of "hat", stopping rain etc, but still allowing air to circulate?


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## dm65 (4 Sep 2014)

Ok, so a vent will be added but Phil and Ghengis, you didn't say which way you would swing :wink: , open or closed ?


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Sep 2014)

You're fine as long as no water can get in - all kinds of weird and wonderful things have been done with liners and chimneys (what the eye doesn't see, and all that).


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## manxman (4 Sep 2014)

Open for me, with a free standing log burner, replastered and a bit of reclaimed oak made to look like a lintel, but it does depend on the look of the rest of the house I suppose.


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## RogerS (4 Sep 2014)

Do you still have gas to the house? Is that gas pipe 'live'? I'd be concerned about that.

Also, why did the plaster fall off in the first place? Have you got any damp in the wall? Old houses = no damp-proof course (usually) 

Oh, yes.....open! How about a log fire?


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## RogerS (4 Sep 2014)

Here's one I did earlier

BEFORE





AFTER





And this one from another room



 

log store underneath


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## stevebuk (4 Sep 2014)

Open, filled with logs stacked end on...


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## Sheffield Tony (4 Sep 2014)

Doesn't it all rather depend on whether you want to have fires, what the condition of the rest of the flue is in, and what best suits your taste and the rest of the house ?

If you put a stove in, the gas liner needs to be removed and probably replaced with a flex liner suitable for solid fuel - unless the house is more recent than it looks and already has a flue constriuction that will be impervious to condensate. It is hard to gauge age of house and size of opening, but it looks to me like a free standing stove might look best ? But it depends on the look you want - to my mind free standing is best if you like the "ye olde" look, but contemporary insets can look good if that is what you want. Oh, and whatever stove you put in, the clearance to combustibles needed above it _may_ preclude putting the TV over it. 

I have two fireplaces in my 1939-ish house, one I have an inset stove, the other I was going to put a free standing stove in; I knocked it out to the builder's opening, put down a new slate hearth, lime plastered it out (gypsum plaster will fall off, and ordinary plasterboard is not up to it), painted it with limewash, made and fitted a suitable closure plate for the chimney, and an oak mantle piece ... then has a change of plan as that room got taken over as a playroom, so a stove no longer seemed like a good idea. The hole now houses the son's fishtank !


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## dm65 (4 Sep 2014)

Thanks everyone - the consensus so far seems to be OPEN - I just wish I could make my mind up which is why I posted

Roger, yes the gas line is still live but I am going to get someone to cap it off if a gas fire isn't going to be fitted - got a number for someone yesterday and I think i'll ask him if he can advise about the chimney and liner. Sorry though Roger, that firegrate looks a bit odd to my simple mind being off the ground and all (just my opinion, don't shoot me)

So, if its going to be open and needs plastering with lime plaster, does that include the front of the chimney breast as well ?

I assume the original plaster was so loose due to damp/neglect and age (bit like me) and while it didn't actually fall off without intervention, it didn't need any tools to remove - I used the little nail bar in the first image and probably swore at it a bit as well - just used a hammer and bolster to cut a line under the coving but that scared me as well so I think i'll be more careful knocking the sides back and use a knife instead


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## mind_the_goat (4 Sep 2014)

@Tony, Have you built that as a self extinguishing log fire ?


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## doorframe (4 Sep 2014)

Sheffield Tony's fish tank is a great idea (as long as you don't want a fire).


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## manxman (5 Sep 2014)

You could always try just cleaning up the original brick work and repointing to see if you were happy with the look...


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## sammy.se (5 Sep 2014)

Open. I had problems with damp in my old house and i would strongly recommend taking the time opportunity to do the right thing damp-wise. Definitely cap the chimney.


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## dc_ni (5 Sep 2014)

Open, but cap the chimney so you don't wake up to a dead pigeon on the floor. Luckily it was a fresh one :roll:


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## dm65 (5 Sep 2014)

Manxman, the brickwork is a bit rough and I don't particularly think much of exposed brickwork but I am thinking about leaving the lintel exposed even if it is just punch dressed (seemingly )

Definitely seems that open is favoured by you lot and I guess it will be easy enough to close up again later if needs be

Someone mentioned lime plastering the brickwork - is this something I could expect a decent plasterer to be able to do and should I say no if said plasterer offers gypsum - I don't want it dot & dabbing !!


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## Sheffield Tony (5 Sep 2014)

As far as I understand it, the things to avoid are anything technically combustible -that includes standard plasterboard - or regular gypsum plaster which will come off if it is subjected to stove temperatures for long. I used traditional lime plaster (because I am a taditionalist at heart!) made with lime putty and sand - sharp sand for the first coat, silver sand for the top coat. I had not done it before, and what a game it is ! I don't imagine most builders would rush to do it. A sand and cement render would do too, and there are some heat resistant boards you might use too. Regular matte emulsion will be ok if ypu need to paint it.


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## dm65 (21 Sep 2014)

Bit of an update

Despite the overwhelming vote for open, it's now gonna be closed (ever the rebel) with a 'hole in the wall' type fire about a foot off the ground, so no hearth

Will no doubt need advice for rebuilding  

To aid with the job and make it feel like santa's been, I just popped out and bought this






I do feel like a kiddie at Christmas as well - always wanted one but didn't really need one

Time for a brew, then it's hammer time (hammer)


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## dm65 (21 Sep 2014)

Ok, I bottled it - couldn't bring myself to disturb the Sunday tranquillity so will start in the morning instead

But look what a little prod revealed -




You're looking at about 20mm of concrete render over the original plaster there. Am I glad the old plaster is still there as it should separate from the wall pretty easy !


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## Eric The Viking (21 Sep 2014)

Slightly off topic, but relevant, I bought one of these about three weeks ago. They're brilliant for getting off old lime plaster. The wide blade means everything vibrates a lot less (we have black lime mortar and if you're not careful lots of bricks get loose). 

It's not clear from the picture but the shaft is cranked over, which makes it easier to go at the wall at a quite shallow angle, and get behind the plaster, rather than cutting straight into it.

I had a fairly wide chisel for my SDS before, but this was a great deal quicker. It's 75mm wide. Yours in the picture looked narrower, which is why I mentioned it.


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## dm65 (21 Sep 2014)

I do hope this isn't a 'mine's bigger than yours' response ?

But it is, mines only 40mm  

Don't forget, it's not what you've got, it's how you use it

Now, where's my catalogue ...

PS thanks for the tip


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## dm65 (21 Sep 2014)

Like this ? http://www.screwfix.com/p/armeg-sds-plu ... isel/89391

I didn't realise you could get some of the other stuff, channelling chisels sound good


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## Eric The Viking (21 Sep 2014)

It certainly looks extraordinarily similar to the Heller one, but feel free to pay more than 3x the price... :-o

That said, I've got an Armeg square hole cutter for electrical boxes. I've had it for about 14 years, and although my use is only DIY, it's been well borrowed - a bit worn now but still going strong, and our brick is engineering, not Thermalite block. So they're definitely not cheap'n'nasty, but then neither is the Heller stuff usually, either.


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## dm65 (21 Sep 2014)

Just checked prices - thanks for the tip


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## Sheffield Tony (22 Sep 2014)

Eric The Viking":1qzvcsfq said:


> Slightly off topic, but relevant, I bought one of these about three weeks ago. They're brilliant for getting off old lime plaster. The wide blade means everything vibrates a lot less (we have black lime mortar and if you're not careful lots of bricks get loose).
> 
> It's not clear from the picture but the shaft is cranked over, which makes it easier to go at the wall at a quite shallow angle, and get behind the plaster, rather than cutting straight into it.
> 
> I had a fairly wide chisel for my SDS before, but this was a great deal quicker. It's 75mm wide. Yours in the picture looked narrower, which is why I mentioned it.



Ahh. I used one of those with my 4kg Bosch SDS drill to get the tiles of the bathroom, and very nearly made it a walk in ensuite from the bedroom next door. Had to replaster the other side of the wall. Go steady !

Incidentally, of you go for the inset stove "hole in the wall" type fire, I don't think it removes the need for a hearth as specified in Part J (?) It is always nice to have a hearth as wde as the fully open stove door, IMHO. You will see brochure photos of stoves fitted in unacceptable ways - no hearth, with logs piled too close, etc - because it looks good. Your other issue is what to do with the wall around it - some stoves can be connected to a flex liner through the top of the stove without access to the outside of the top, others need access which you later need to board up. With a non-combustible material, that won't crack in the heat. 

Big plus point of inset stoves is that you can get a great fire "picture" - nice big window to get the best enjoyment from the flames. I'm sure it is at least 50% the view that makes you feel warm !


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## DiscoStu (22 Sep 2014)

Open it up and leave the exposed brick work. My FIL did this and it looks fab


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## dm65 (22 Sep 2014)

Sheffield Tony":1ji2x4pb said:


> Ahh. I used one of those with my 4kg Bosch SDS drill to get the tiles of the bathroom, and very nearly made it a walk in ensuite from the bedroom next door. Had to replaster the other side of the wall. Go steady !


Plaster has gone. I am going to remove the infill by hand (I don't forsee needing tools to do this :-()

I lurve my new toy !



Sheffield Tony":1ji2x4pb said:


> Incidentally, of you go for the inset stove "hole in the wall" type fire, I don't think it removes the need for a hearth as specified in Part J (?) It is always nice to have a hearth as wde as the fully open stove door, IMHO. You will see brochure photos of stoves fitted in unacceptable ways - no hearth, with logs piled too close, etc - because it looks good. Your other issue is what to do with the wall around it - some stoves can be connected to a flex liner through the top of the stove without access to the outside of the top, others need access which you later need to board up. With a non-combustible material, that won't crack in the heat.


Fire is decided and have read the instructions for it - it states opening dimensions and that's all that's required though I'm hoping to speak to a fitter before removing anything which has meant another delay



Sheffield Tony":1ji2x4pb said:


> Big plus point of inset stoves is that you can get a great fire "picture" - nice big window to get the best enjoyment from the flames. I'm sure it is at least 50% the view that makes you feel warm !


You are right on both points 

I've sat with an open fire on my tv from youtube and I SWEAR I could feel the heat


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## Sheffield Tony (22 Sep 2014)

Whatcha going for then Den ? I have a Stovax. Lit it for the first time this year last night. Need something to watch while DW is watching Downton Abbey


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## dm65 (22 Sep 2014)

Sheffield Tony":38ng5211 said:


> Whatcha going for then Den ? I have a Stovax. Lit it for the first time this year last night. Need something to watch while DW is watching Downton Abbey


I'm going for this http://www.direct-fireplaces.com/wall-m ... e/853.html and want the same look - small room so I think/hope it will look great


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## Sheffield Tony (23 Sep 2014)

I see - I was thinking solid fuel (hence part J) rather than gas - forget what I said about hearths  No need to open doors or any risk of things falling out. Hope your install goes well.


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## Michael7 (23 Sep 2014)

If you are going to put a stove in I wouldn't put the telly above it. We have an Aarrow inset and it belts out some heat. 
Michael


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## dm65 (23 Sep 2014)

Sheffield Tony":1bvxns7g said:


> I see - I was thinking solid fuel (hence part J) rather than gas - forget what I said about hearths  No need to open doors or any risk of things falling out. Hope your install goes well.


No problem Tony

Install is currently not being installed as I need a gas man to move a pipe for me before I start and that looks like Thursday now

Shall I keep posting pictures ? Anybody interested ?


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## Sheffield Tony (23 Sep 2014)

It's getting towards the time of year when pictures of flames are welcome  I wouldn't mind seeing the end result.


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## John15 (23 Sep 2014)

I had my sitting room fireplace blocked up last year. I'm chuffed with the result - one less thing to attend to, I don't miss it, and the plain wall looks fine. I didn't realise you had to seal the chimney pot - no sign of damp yet though.

John


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## dm65 (23 Sep 2014)

John15":3ih7hnpq said:


> I had my sitting room fireplace blocked up last year. I'm chuffed with the result - one less thing to attend to, I don't miss it, and the plain wall looks fine. I didn't realise you had to seal the chimney pot - no sign of damp yet though.
> 
> John


I think I was finally swayed by the clean look of a plain chimney and as my room is small, I don't think that can be a bad thing

Reason I originally asked for folks opinions is that I just couldn't make my mind for more than a day at a time !!


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## dm65 (23 Sep 2014)

I wonder if this is one of the plasterers having a recce ?


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## dm65 (25 Sep 2014)

Bit of an update

Plumber came round today and capped off my gas pipe then popped a smoke pellet in the existing opening but we didn't see any (plumber thought he saw a tiny bit) smoke out of the chimney

I went upstairs and I swear I could smell the smoke (can you smell those pellets?) in the attic

Upshot is, more delay and now need someone to check my existing liner/chimney

Does anyone know anybody in Leeds that does this ?

PS I was hoping to have had the fireplace rebuilt by end of play tomorrow


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## Eric The Viking (26 Sep 2014)

You probably want a good chimney sweep as a start. In my limited experience, they're very good at assessing chimney condition, and they're usually pretty "frank."

Also, don't expect a smoke pellet to work if: the air on the roof is significantly warmer than the air in the room, or there's no way for air to enter the room at low level either. 

Chimneys aren't magic - air is heated and rises, sucking more with it as it goes. If it can't flow properly it can't rise. That's how you get CO2 and CO buildup - in the first case combustion happens properly but the exhaust gases can't rise fast enough. In the second case airflow is so poor that the build-up of CO2 impedes combustion too so that it's incomplete (and you get CO instead of CO2). Both are poisons, but CO is really dangerous as it's more chemically active in the body.

Check there's a permanent route for quite a large volume of air to reach the fireplace. 

If you need to do a test before any necessary vents are done (modern windows stop the draughts that used to help in the C19th!), do the test with the room door open, on a cooler day.

Most brick chimneys are 1/2-brick where they go through the attic and the chimney breast brickwork, and between houses in back-to-back chimneys (often a cause of noise complaints - effectively the two properties are connected through missing pointing in the chimneys). The only practical solution if you can't repoint them effectively is a liner. Bear in mind that, if back-to-back, you may fix your problem with repointing but create one for the other party (and some danger too, as both CO and CO2 are heavier than air so sink through the house as they cool.

I am NOT a builder, nor a heating specialist. You should get proper advice. I've only posted the above to give you some idea of the issues. FIrst off, you probably need it cleaned anyway, so find a sweep and make the chap a big mug of tea...


[edit] got CO and CO2 the wrong way round - CO comes from poor combustion, CO2 when things burn properly.[/]


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## dm65 (26 Sep 2014)

Good reply Eric, thanks

I'm currently online now looking around - seem to be plenty of companies offering sweeps etc so will start calling


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## dm65 (26 Sep 2014)

Sweep (I didn't know a liner needed sweeping !) arranged for the 15th so will update this once done

Another simple job turning into an epic !!!

This is one of those typical scenarios in an old house where removing some wallpaper has progressed to a plastering job etc - from my distant past, I sort of half expected this but ...


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## dm65 (15 Oct 2014)

Chimney inspected today by the cleanest looking chimney sweep !! I was actually surprised at how clean he looked 

Anyway, all good news, he says the liner is fine and from his smoke test, there was plenty coming out of the chimney and I saw it being pulled up the liner quite strongly

He left behind a lovely little certificate to say it's been tested and is functional so I can now crack on and rebuild that infill - well, I can in 3 weeks when I've stopped taxing/working/visiting etc :-(

There will be questions, stand by your keyboard ...


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