# Tool chest challenge - layout tools



## Alf (10 Feb 2005)

Okay folks, we'll take a trial run at this and see if it'll work. Click on the thumbnail below to take you to pics of all my layout tools.





If something strikes you as missing please yell loudly! Then enjoy yourselves deciding what out of that lot _you'd_ make room for.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

d'you do any turning? in which case, calipers would be useful.

(edit - that's calipers as in bow-legged dividers, rather than measuring ones...in case you hadn't sussed that already, which I'm sure you had)


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

Marking knife and protractor?

I also find a cheap aluminium 24" rule is pretty useful


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## Chris Knight (10 Feb 2005)

Tony":3vhv2km5 said:


> Marking knife and protractor?



Tony - click on the picture like the lady says! :lol:


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

Espedair Street":2gr3j4hq said:


> d'you do any turning? in which case, calipers would be useful.
> 
> (edit - that's calipers as in bow-legged dividers, rather than measuring ones...in case you hadn't sussed that already, which I'm sure you had)



OK, I'm quoting meself here, but it brings us to another potential rule...

Some stuff would be specific to a single application, like these bow-legged dividers - you'd use them at a lathe, but probably not elsewhere. So, are we talking tools that you'd use predominantly at a work bench, and avoid things that would be better located near the tailed-beast machinery where you mainly use them?


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

waterhead37":22h81z6l said:


> Tony":22h81z6l said:
> 
> 
> > Marking knife and protractor?
> ...



Ohhh. Ta Chris. Rushing and didn't see that


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## Alf (10 Feb 2005)

Turning is not an issue, so no centre finders and such needed either. All strictly benchwork. Also sharpening kit won't be included because I'm not planning on changing my sharpening habits, bad though they probably are. :wink:

So which out of that lot would you choose? Can't take 'em all, don't need 'em all.

Cheers, Alf


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## Noel (10 Feb 2005)

Alf, sorry to go off on a tandem...but where'd you get the bevel rule, something "...land Tool" on it?

Cheers

Noel


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

Oh, you want a choice? sheesh, ok, here comes:

*squares:* throw away the wooden stocked ones. Keep 3" and 6" engineers. Keep combination. Keep Jap mitre. Framing square is of limited use, I'd have thought - could probably make do with various geometry rules (3:4:5 for marking or measuring diagonals when glueing up). Dunno what a pinch rod is  

*angle measuring tools*: I'd get rid of bevel boss, and probably the wooden bevel. Might consider replacing hardwood dovetail markers with brass ones

*measuring tools*: lose the 18" rule. Lose the vernier, keep the digital caliper. You're a metric gal, so lose the wooden folder. Consider replacing the alu folder with a 1m non-folder (more accurate)

*gauges*: Can never have enough of these. These days, I tend to prefer cutting gauge along the grain as well as across, over the normal marking gauges, so you could possible bin the marking, and replace with more cutting. This is a personal thing though, I think - I just find the cutting ones stay truer. Having said that, I have no wheel gauges, so mebbe just loads of those. OK, you got me, I have no real idea on this subject!

*knives, pencils and such*: Marking knife - you've got left, right and 'v' ones - the 'v' should be enough. Ditch the others. (ok, the 'v' isn't on the picture, but I know you've made your own - i've seen the pics). 1 carpenter's pencil (not sure on this, actually - i never use mine any more - always knife or propelling), 1 propelling one, pref 0.3 mm rather than 0.5 mm - Staedtler do good ones. Centre point good. 2 sizes of compasses? why? bigger size keep, smaller one ditch. Possilby same for dividers, though I can see the attraction of keeping 2 sizes there. Possibly replace the compasses with the type that has a screw-thread to control the span - more accurate. Craft knife always handy. Swiss army doesn't belong in tool chest. Marker pens - keep a couple, different colours.

*levels etc*: keep em all. Although look to replace wooden levels with metallic or plastic ones in the long term....i know they look 'orrid, but more accurate, less prone to movement due to humidity or temperature. And some modern ones can look quite nice too. (ducks galootish tantrum)
[*edit*; actually, ditch all the bubbles - they rely on the surface you're working on being level - these are best put somewhere they can be used when you're fixing stuff to walls, or whatever]


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## Alf (10 Feb 2005)

Noely":14abjmr1 said:


> Alf, sorry to go off on a tandem...but where'd you get the bevel rule, something "...land Tool" on it?


Courtesy of Chris; my prize for being a smart-a*** about ways to cut a dado.  Actually come in handy an amazing amount - thanks, Chris. Here's the site. Go off on a tandem, or even a tangent if the weather's not so good for cycling; finding out about things you didn't even know exist is half the point. 

Esp, good stuff. I won't comment generally now except to say 1. Bad phrasing on my part - only one pair of compasses. 2. Nope, no double bevel marking knife here. Keep thinking about pulling the trigger on the Veritas, but it's just that bit too pricy.  Oh, and there's a 1m alu rule in the workshop. Forgot about that. Wouldn't fit in the chest anyway. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

Alf":8wd6t9cq said:


> Nope, no double bevel marking knife here. Keep thinking about pulling the trigger on the Veritas



Hmm, ok, I'll believe you. I just have a very insistent memory of a Jester Toolworks 'v' style marking knife, with the blade made from a spare/bust/blunt beyond repair HSS planer/thicknesser blade. If I could be pineappled, I'd look for the thread - it's either here, or on the msn group.


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## Alf (10 Feb 2005)

Espedair Street":6ruqusda said:


> I just have a very insistent memory of a Jester Toolworks 'v' style marking knife, with the blade made from a spare/bust/blunt beyond repair HSS planer/thicknesser blade. If I could be pineappled, I'd look for the thread - it's either here, or on the msn group.


Yep, that's the Left handed one to the right of the Sloyd. Never a V type though, 'cos it wouldn't have worked with the HSS area of the blade. Here we are.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

well, there ya go, can never trust insistent memories. I only have a RH knife, but as a genuine ambidextrous type, am often cursing the lack of a LH one - ditch RH and LH, and get a couple of Vs, I reckon


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## Midnight (10 Feb 2005)

> ditch RH and LH, and get a couple of Vs, I reckon



and end up with the worst of both worlds..??

<tutt tuttin....


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

interesting comment Mike - I've never used a 'v', so don't know shortcomings - enlightenment please?


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## Frank D. (10 Feb 2005)

I have a V Japanese knife which I do use for marking shoulders of tenons and the like. The ability to work in any direction and have the flat surface against the straight edge is a big adavantage. I don't use it for dovetails though, because I have often ended up shaving the tails when laying out the pins. I made a single-edged type knife but that has a bevel on both sides and I like it better for dovetails:





Frank D.


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2005)

bloomin eck Frank, that's even more interesting - so you're using a knife with a 'v' cutting edge (which is different to a 'v' style marking knife), a la any bog standard stanley knife, for your DT markouts? no problems with the offset of the sharp bit of the blade against the straight edge? I guess you'd end up with DT joints too tight if you did this, and a paring chisel would sort you out?

Heck, this is interesting, even if we are hijacking Alf's thread.


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## Chris Knight (10 Feb 2005)

Frank,
That is a nice knife - well done.

Ian Kirby ("The Complete Dovetail") recommends the use of a simple penknife with a double bevel and I have started using a small key-chain sized Swiss army knife following my reading of his approach and I must say I find it the best of the knives I have used for marking out.


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## Noel (10 Feb 2005)

Thanks Alf, back from me tandem ride...

Noel


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## Midnight (10 Feb 2005)

> interesting comment Mike - I've never used a 'v', so don't know shortcomings - enlightenment please?



I canna remember if it was Kirby (tho given Chris's post.. I have my doubts) or DC who recommends a single bevel, necessitating having both left and right handed varients. The logiv being that you mark the line with the bevel facing into the waste. That way you're not crushing the shoulder of the face you want to keep; you can place a tool right on the line with confidence that you're not slightly over it...

The highlighted drawback of the double bevel was that it places the cut away from the intended mark by the width of the bevel.. the single bevel by definitin ending up exactly where ya want it..

<shrugs..>

I remember it making sense enough at the time to give it a try... yet to find fault in the logic...

Apologies for the lousy memory tho I remember the author had a liking for a Kiridashi..


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## Frank D. (11 Feb 2005)

Sorry to continue the hijack  . I don't have a problem with the offset cutting edge. I hold it tilted, oh maybe 3 or 4°, and I also aim the cutting part of the blade slightly toward my tails. This keeps the knife from wandering, the cut pushes it against the tail, but the extra bevel keeps the cutting edge from digging in. I get good results, but I admit that my sawing leaves much to be desired since I don't get as much practice as I should, so paring before assembly is a necessity. But still, I pare right down to the line and everything usually fits...


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## Alf (11 Feb 2005)

Espedair Street":17d74rtg said:


> Heck, this is interesting, even if we are hijacking Alf's thread.


As long as it's on topic, which it is, hijacking is virtually impossible in these threads. The whole idea is to promote discussion.  BTW, beautiful knife handle, Frank. 

The reason for including all the range of knives I did was because, at one time or another, _all_ of them have been recommended as marking knives. Jeff Gorman has some in depth discussion on marking knife bevels and use here; he seems to favour Frank's method. I still don't feel I've found _the_ knife myself, to be honest. It's very frustrating. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (11 Feb 2005)

Midnight":85w6a8z4 said:


> I canna remember if it was Kirby (tho given Chris's post.. I have my doubts) or DC who recommends a single bevel, necessitating having both left and right handed varients. The logiv being that you mark the line with the bevel facing into the waste. That way you're not crushing the shoulder of the face you want to keep; you can place a tool right on the line with confidence that you're not slightly over it...
> 
> The highlighted drawback of the double bevel was that it places the cut away from the intended mark by the width of the bevel.. the single bevel by definitin ending up exactly where ya want it..



It was DC definitely, though Kirby could have said it too. But that's not what I mean by a 'v' type knife. What I mean is one of these: V knife

Single bevel, but V shaped so both left & right hand use.


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## Midnight (11 Feb 2005)

> Single bevel, but V shaped so both left & right hand use.



Ahhhh... nuff said... damn good knives them... speaking as one using the right handed variant...

I guess the bottom line is (as Frank's post bears out), it really doesn't matter which type of knife you use so long as _*you*_ understand its limitations and adjust technique to compensate... I gotta be careful not to overload the braincell.. hence the dedicated single bevel.. 

ummmmm.... am I the only guy who winces when someone quotes ya, typo's n all...????


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## Alf (11 Feb 2005)

Espedair Street":1x5u15f2 said:


> Dunno what a pinch rod is


Sorry, Esp, I meant to answer this one earlier. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (11 Feb 2005)

Ahh, I see. Bunch of smarty-pants, these Lee Valley bods, eh?


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## Alf (11 Feb 2005)

Well it's an old trick; they just took it a step further by making a simple clamping arrangement so the laths don't slip. So yes, they're a bunch of smarty pants for building on historical precedent. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## kygaloot (11 Feb 2005)

Yes, this is an old system. I seem to recall Krenov illustrating their use in one of his books. Confession: I even saw Norm use them on a carcase once. He must have left his tape measure on his toolbelt at the _This Old House_ building site. 

LV, as usual, improved on the original concept.

Jeff


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## Shady (11 Feb 2005)

To get back to the original question ( :wink: ) - 

Beam trammels Alf - don't see any - essential for those 'big' circles you need to mark out.


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## Alf (12 Feb 2005)

Shady":1kiue49j said:


> To get back to the original question ( :wink: ) -
> 
> Beam trammels Alf - don't see any - essential for those 'big' circles you need to mark out.


Shady, you're right. I don't have any, and I have felt the lack of them. Trouble is they command high prices both old and new (well too high for me at the minute anyway) and the tuit to make my own has yet to surface. So yep, definitely "beam trammel futures" on the list.

So folks, no one but Esp brave enough to make their selection known? For shame. The silence on the subject suggests you all have a use for everything too. I'm impressed, 'cos I'm not sure I do. Pop quiz on why you need one of everything on Monday then...?  

Cheers, Alf


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## kygaloot (12 Feb 2005)

Alf,

The only items that I would add to your “setting out” kit is 

1.Trammel points (or beam compass), as mentioned

2.Centre-finding gauge – easily made.

I would suggest eliminating

1.Three of the smaller steel engineer's squares. Keep the largest one (6”?) as it seems to fall between the two Sorby's.

2.Both combination squares. You have the Japanese square/mitre for 45°. The smaller adjustable precision square will meet any need for an adjustable square.

3.Three bevel gauges seem a bit excessive. The wooden gauge seems to be a size duplication and it does not have the “sliding” feature. However, perhaps it is the product of your own hands, and if you are like me, cold rational thinking does not always guide these decisions. If that is the case, keep it.

4.Digital caliper. Nothing with a digital readout, (or a laser) belong in a galoot's toolkit. It is simply a philosophical case of oil and water. 

5.The metal folding ruler. It is a duplication, and further, it uses the culture destroying, utopian metric system. Come on, you are English!  I would prefer the older style folding rule as they can lay flat. As far as measuring larger dimensions (over 24”), I expect that the tape measure is most often the choice. So on second thought, eliminate both folding rules.

6.Pare the marking gauges down to two marking gauges (one metal point, one pencil), one cutting gauge, and one mortice gauge.

7.Swiss army knife. No need for MacGyver-esque exploits in the wood shop. You can grab a chisel and slice off a nice a sliver of wood if you need a toothpick, and you have no need for the corkscrew since you would never “drink and saw”. With this style of striking knife, most of the items could be eliminated.

8. Two of the levels. I very rarely have had need for a level in building furniture. Just in case keep the middle sized one.

Jeff
the mimimalist


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## kygaloot (12 Feb 2005)

I don't know what a "mimimalist" is but it might be someone who lacks the ability to spell "minimalist" 

Jeff


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## Midnight (12 Feb 2005)

> It is a duplication, and further, it uses the culture destroying, utopian metric system. Come on, you are English



ummm... Jeff... I hate to say this but in the UK, we abandoned the Stone Age system over 30 years ago... y'all need t get with the program dude..


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## Chris Knight (12 Feb 2005)

Midnight":el07mibn said:


> > we abandoned the Stone Age system over 30 years ago.



Mike, It's a tragedy but we had to. You see, after my generation, all the kids that were born subsequently seem to have been mentally deficient, or do I mean deficient in mental arithmetic? Either way, they just couldn't handle the far more versatile duodecimal system. The result is that Englishmen are being brought down to the level of the French.

Unfortunately, the dumbing down of our system of counting notwithstanding, the average checkout person still seems to need a calculator to make change when I proffer a pound for a newspaper.


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## Anonymous (12 Feb 2005)

I believe it's been mentioned in another thread that Alf is of the metric generation, which is why I advised ditching the imperial folder for the metric one. 

If you, or she, were of the imperial, I would have ditched t'other. For me, it's metric all the time, if you don't mind.

And is this necessarily a gallootish tool chest? We already know it's not entirerly neander, after all!


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## kygaloot (12 Feb 2005)

Yes....we colonists do feel the heavy burden of conserving Anglo-Saxon culture against the assimilation of the global industrial Borg. We have fought bravely, sometimes against our own Presidents. Resist we do, yet not in futility. And particularly as galoots, we know there is more to life than the cold, sterile efficiency of the metricist. We value tradition, for though it may be clumsy, it is not boring. Nay, we enjoy the rich tapestry of history that lay behind the foot, furlong, and farthingdale.

To that, I think I will raise a pint!

Jeff

**************************

METRIC MADNESS
Volodimir Barabash

Pipe the newest tune of madness,
For this country's citizens,
Who are struck by metric madness...
Poor and helpless denizens.

Watch those drivers on the highways,
Ringed with frowns and without smiles,
As they labour how to render
Kilometers into miles.

On hour housewives show your pity,
As they ply their daily rounds.
To grams all must be converted.
No more ounces...no more pounds.

Voice your feelings for the farmers.
For their daughters and their sons.
They must tabulate in kilos.
No more bushels...no more tons.

And what about all those tradesmen,
Carpenters and engineers.
Draughtsmen, chemists and all others.
For them we should shed our tears.

Teachers, preachers, politicians.
Printers, newsmen...victims all.
Let us hope this metric fever
Will not drive us up the wall.


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## Alf (12 Feb 2005)

I may be of the metric generation, but I've been turned into a raving imperialist* by necessity. (*That's a pun, btw. Gettit?) 

Now this is interesting, I expected universal cries of "dump the wooden stocked squares", "use the combination square and lose the bevels" and other such rational thinking. Does a carpenter's pencil really have a place in a furnituremaker's tool chest? Here's my go then:

*Angle measuring tools*
Big and little sliding bevels
Bevel Boss (makes things a little quicker than changing heads on a combination square). Also acts as a rule and straight edge, albeit in inches...
Dovetail gauge - just 'cos it's a little quicker than using the little bevel and a square seperately

*Gauges*
I've realised I forgot the butt gauge, but no matter 'cos I'm not picking it.
Wheel gauge
3 in 1 gauge
"BugBeared" cutting gauge
Combination mortise gauge (pin as well - second one in. No one wondered what the subtle difference between the two was then? )
Pencil gauge

Repeat after me - you can never have enough gauges. :wink:

*Knives, pencils and such*
C'mon folks, no-one needs that many knives! This was an obvious place for elimination.
Pencil compasses
Both dividers - at least the big ones maybe only until I can get some trammel heads. I probably ought to knock the rust off them though.
Mechanical and 2B pencil
R/H marking knife and craft knife. Oh, and the Sloyd for sharpening the pencil...

The marker pens were a bit of a red herring - I use them mainly for sharpening to see where I'm removing metal. What do others use them for? The penknife has never been in the workshop before, it was just there because they've been suggested as a marking knife before now.

*Rules etc*
I know it's not galootish, but the digital caliper stays - I can actually read it for a start.
24", 12" & 6" steel rules
Tape measure

I love folding rules to bits, but I can't use the blooming things. If they get voted in, so be it and I'll have to learn for the duration. If not I'll have to curb my enthusiasm for them and sell all six I have...  

*Squares*
12" combination square
4" double square
6" engineer's square
Japanese mitre square
pinch rods

I probably should have mentioned the 8" engineer's square which acts as the workshop "standard" to check the rest with. Sorry. The 4" double square has rendered most of the smaller engineer's squares usefullness obsolete. As long as it _stays_ square of course...

*Levels etc*
Winding sticks
12" level

If someone can tell me what they use a plumb bob for in furnituremaking, please do. I haven't in 20 years, but it was in the list in _Choosing and using hand tools_, so in it went. The chalk line probably ought to be in there for marking boards for ripping, but I can't honestly remember the last time I used it. And levels? Heck folks, there's a level on the combination square! :roll: The one that gets the nod does so for sentimental reasons - it came in the chest.

Okay, so tell me the glaring ommission I haven't spotted...

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (12 Feb 2005)

*Chris wrote...*


> You see, after my generation, all the kids that were born subsequently seem to have been mentally deficient, or do I mean deficient in mental arithmetic? Either way, they just couldn't handle the far more versatile duodecimal system.



Being from the first class to be educated from the ground up in metric, you can imagine the consternation at the sudden exposure to this new system, pre-school exposure being entirely imperial.. however, cope we did despite the instant alienation of any non teaching adult... they simply didn't speak "our" language... 
In, through, and out the other side of the education system, metric through and through... dropped into the deep end of industrial apprenticeships, fightin' fit... itchin t kick some azz... to be met with ye aulde methods.. say wha...? get with the program... that chit's obsolete dontchya know...
*Oh REALLY...????*
So rather than demonstrate a mental deficiency... we've had to prove a super proficiency in mental arithmetic, forced to become conversant with a system we'd never been educated in... chastised if we _*dared *_revert back into ways that we've more conversant with...
Fortunately, them days are long gone... the need for conversance being limited to the occasional stone age drill bit size... that is, until you try to work with ply and routers... a half inch bit does *not * a decent dado make for 12mm ply... anyone ever see a 12mm template bit..??? Ridiculous situation...

As for the current generation... I can honestly claim that I've had no part in it... raise kids with a game pad in one hand, coke tins in the other... an chit happens...


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## Anonymous (12 Feb 2005)

kygaloot":3ngmqean said:


> To that, I think I will raise a pint!



Would that be an *imperial* pint, or the short measure that passes for a pint in the US? <innocent look>


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## Midnight (12 Feb 2005)

*Jeff wrote...*


> We value tradition, for though it may be clumsy, it is not boring.



Tradition..??

well.. I'll grant you, you're safe enough while wood working... for a while at least... industry though.. that's a different beastie alltogether...

case in point... a wee sketch for ya... typical exerpt from my working day...

"Hey Mike... I canna get a screw t fit these holes... do you ha'e ony the right size...??"

"Fit holes...?? far are ye...??... Ohhh THEM..??? Och.. yon's some stupid Septic BS... #8/24's or somethin... ye've mare chance o findin blue hens' teeth than findin them..."

"Ohh.. so how do I bolt this on then...??"

"Nae bother... rin a 4.2mm drill through the bush.. tap it oot t M5... help yersel t the screws... *sorted*...!!"


this is efficient..???

given that the rest of the planet is metric... y'all need to figure where your markets are... and change accordingly... move with us or be left behind... your choice...


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## kygaloot (12 Feb 2005)

Espedair Street wrote,



> Would that be an imperial pint, or the short measure that passes for a pint in the US?



As a colonist, I only know a system based on the original English wine gallon and its fractions thereof (quart, pint). We remained steadfast to that heritage, whilst our recently departed English brethren couldn't decide between the wine gallon and ale gallon, and therefore chose the new fangled imperial gallon. So when I raise a pint, I am being true to the original English measure. But I tell you what, I would happily adopt gills, nips, noggins, flagons, firkins, kilderkins,hogsheads, or puncheons with all of their colorful heritage, than the bland, clinical litre and its related "age of reason" decimal equivalents. 

Jeff


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## kygaloot (13 Feb 2005)

Mike wrote,



> given that the rest of the planet is metric...



Yes, I work in heavy industry as a rude mechanikal. The industrialists have forced us to use the metric fasteners. I bow and obey as a submissive servant so as to receive my tuppence. Plate, structural beams, and pipe on the other hand will remain steadfastly English for my remaining years on this good earth. Would you care to guess what type of pipe and related fittings predominate in China?



> y'all need to figure where your markets are... and change accordingly... move with us or be left behind... your choice...



Spoken in true Maastricht fashion. Oh....please leave us behind kind sir! We don't want our village shopkeepers to end up in gaol for using historically meaningful measures. 

Jeff

who chuckles whenever he hears his Euro friends describe the weight of something in kilograms which of course is no weight at all, but mass......as if they were living and breathing outside the earth's atmosphere.


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## Aragorn (13 Feb 2005)

Alf
I've also gone for a more minimal approach.
Sorry for the delay, but here's my shot:

*Squares*
Large wooden handled square
12" combination
Oh and, go on, have that new little one as well
6" engineers

*Angle Measuring Tools*
Large and/or small sliding bevel
Bevel Boss

*Rules and measuring*
Tape measure
Digital calipers
6" and 12" rules

*Gauges*
Wheel gauge
3 in 1
Bugbear
Pencil

*Knives & Pencils*
Mechanical pencil (& leads)
Add in a red pencil
Add in chalks
Pencil compasses
One of those knives! Don't mind which

*Levels & Straight edges*
Couple of levels
Winding Sticks

What you can't layout or measure with that lot deserves to be cut freehand anyway!


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## Alf (13 Feb 2005)

By gum, Aragorn's on topic... :shock: :roll: 

Okay, why the 12" wooden stocked one? I was pretty sure that one was going to get the boot, but it keeps getting the vote. :? No dovetail gauge eh? Boo hiss.  Erm, no mortise gauge either? That's going to cause me some unnecessary grief isn't it? No mortiser here, remember. Chalks, damn. Knew I'd forgotten something vital. Good call. Now do tell; what d'you use a red pencil _for_? And a couple of levels? You'd have liked the original owner of the chest; he had three. :wink: 

Well this all helpful stuff, 'cos it's certainly getting me thinking about what I really need, as opposed to what I just like. Even if I'm not getting enough input to reach a consensus... :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## kygaloot (13 Feb 2005)

Alf,

Sorry for the detour.

I have a 4", 6", and 12" square. I tend to reach for my 4" square for almost all my joinery needs. When I am setting out to crosscut, it is usually a board greater than 6" in width, so the 12" is used. Hence, I rarely use the 6" square for much of anything. As to why one would keep the 12" square over the combination square? Well, who really enjoys fiddling with those things?

In all of these catagories, my inclination is to use the smallest size available that is fit for the job barring some tools which are too small for my hands.

Jeff


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## Aragorn (13 Feb 2005)

I'm with Jeff on the wooden stocked one. I don't like combination squares for actually marking square! I use them all the time, but more as a marking gauge when I want a pencil line, as a depth gauge, or to find the centre of a board by measuring in from both sides.
In't other words, I use the wooden stocked for square, and I _just like them_. 8) 
No dovetail gauge was deliberate, but have one if you must :roll: 
Lack of mortice gauge was _not _deliberate. Add this to the list, of course.  
I use a red pencil (crayon actually sharpened to a fine point) for marking up on woods that do not show a pencil line very well. I don't like making great big pencil marks on everything because the lead really gets into the grain. When you're using just light lines, a pencil mark quickly gets lost on black walnut.
2 levels? Yes, I like levels too! :lol: 

Yes, sorry for veering back on topic. Unusual for me, I know.


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## Midnight (17 Feb 2005)

Alf... did you ever settle on mortice gauges...?? Just curious if you're an 1 or 2 gauge kinda person...


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## Alf (18 Feb 2005)

Midnight":1q3wsr33 said:


> Alf... did you ever settle on mortice gauges...?? Just curious if you're an 1 or 2 gauge kinda person...


2 gauge kinda person? Is this just an accurate judgement on my inability to choose one or the other?  Or a technique using two gauges?

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (18 Feb 2005)

inability...???? sheesh.... an here's me thinkin you'd read DC too...

both guages are handed... kinda sorta... innies n outies.. pins filed to give vertical faces on either their inner face (marking tennons) or their outer face (marking mortices)... single bevel theory as per marking knives applies...

I'm guessing the same goes for a marking gauge... cutting guage blades can be reversed for the same effect..


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## Alf (19 Feb 2005)

Well that's what I guessed, but I thought I'd see what _you_ meant. :wink: Now I have to ask the question; just how vital is it to have "handed" bevels for marking a tenon? Really? if you saw to the line then it doesn't appear to make a heap of difference which side your bevel is, and when you come to tweak it with chisel or plane, how many of us are going to plane exactly to the line and _then_ check the fit? And if you _do_ do that, how often are you spot on? :twisted:

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (19 Feb 2005)

> And if you do do that, how often are you spot on?



herrumph...

in short... every time... isn't that what it's 'sposed to be..???

Ahem...

and if you buy that I've a bridge I'd like t show ya... :wink: 

I thought DC's argument held water though; the deeper the line is scribed, the wider it becomes, making the potential error all the greater. Use the same method on the mating half of the joint and you've doubled the error.

Another point he had was that once a guage is set for a size, it shouldn't be changed till all the joints using that size have been cut, checked and passed as good enough. That has the potential to justify having a fair few guages, each set to it's own particular size..

Admittedly, that's not what I have currently, I've no idea where the line should be drawn... but trying to cover everything with just the one guage struck me as having lots of potential for errors creeping in... I've enough of that mess as it is...


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## Alf (19 Feb 2005)

Midnight":31rqa7w9 said:


> I thought DC's argument held water though; the deeper the line is scribed, the wider it becomes, making the potential error all the greater. Use the same method on the mating half of the joint and you've doubled the error.


Can't argue with that. But it comes down to the whole idea of whether you shoot for tenons straight to your gauged lines without physically checking the fit as you go. I don't. Okay, I _can't_ would be more accurate; not if I want them to fit anyway. So the infinitesimal benefit of a handed gauge is pointless as far as I can see (unintended pun). Not that I'm not willing to be persuaded otherwise, but at the moment I'm not convinced. 



Midnight":31rqa7w9 said:


> Another point he had was that once a guage is set for a size, it shouldn't be changed till all the joints using that size have been cut, checked and passed as good enough. That has the potential to justify having a fair few guages, each set to it's own particular size..


Now that's a reason I'm more than happy to embrace - in fact I already have... If you think you've seen all my gauges you're sadly deluded.  

Cheers, Alf


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## kygaloot (19 Feb 2005)

Well, I see we need mortise gauges like Norm needs routers. 

I think that this depends on one's technique. If one is using mortise chisels, the gauge is set from the mortise chisel itself. The lines for the mortise are really only providing boundaries for centering the chisel. The “hugging” effect advantage of filed pins in terms of controlling the marks with reference to the gauge fence, can be easily duplicated with a traditional gauge pin by simply applying the needed pressure to the fence during use. 

Combined with the tenon approach described by Alf, all the fussing about with multiple gauges, filing innies and outies can be avoided.

Jeff


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