# interested in your experiences paying for tradespeople



## [email protected] (13 Feb 2018)

as per title! as in for work in your own home ie plumbing, heating, electrics, building, carpentry etc etc

how do you guys find it engaging trades?

I find it a nightmare, that said I have had no major horror stories but OMG its such hard work getting the right ones in and making sure it goes right.

I don't want the cheapest, dont like paying cash, happy to pay the VAT, am nice to them, am not demanding, pay on the dot, BUT I do want it done properly, not to be taken advantage of and good communication would be nice but I've given up on that one!

The people I find I work best with are bigger companies that have loads of blokes. The worst are the one man band with the van.

I'm a trade myself so I know what turns these guys off, yet still I struggle and have to bite my lip most of the time.

How is it for you


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## MattRoberts (13 Feb 2018)

I come at it from a similar but different angle: I've not really engaged with any trades people yet but will need to in the near future, and I'm worried that I'll struggle to find the quality that I would now expect.

Before getting into DIY / woodworking, I didn't really understand the difference between quality work and 'get the job done'. Since then I've developed an appreciation for trades people that do high quality work. The trouble is, I have no idea how you find them. Do you get a tiler in for a quote and then start grilling them about ensuring that all the tiles are flush with no lipping, and that there is the right amount of waterproof membrane overlap behind the tiles in a shower enclosure etc?!

I'm guessing not, as I'm definitely no expert, so there would be a thousand things I don't know to ask, plus of course I'd come across as a complete nightmare client...


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## Keith 66 (13 Feb 2018)

Im the opposite, i dont like big companies as you are liable to have just as many problems & will pay far more.
I built a big extension & did a lot of it with a small builder & employed various trades as required, turned out far cheaper & me working on it as well kept them on their toes & kept the quality right.
Paying pound notes dont half keep the price down too.


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

MattRoberts":3jxcw6a4 said:


> I come at it from a similar but different angle: I've not really engaged with any trades people yet but will need to in the near future, and I'm worried that I'll struggle to find the quality that I would now expect.
> 
> Before getting into DIY / woodworking, I didn't really understand the difference between quality work and 'get the job done'. Since then I've developed an appreciation for trades people that do high quality work. The trouble is, I have no idea how you find them. Do you get a tiler in for a quote and then start grilling them about ensuring that all the tiles are flush with no lipping, and that there is the right amount of waterproof membrane overlap behind the tiles in a shower enclosure etc?!
> 
> I'm guessing not, as I'm definitely no expert, so there would be a thousand things I don't know to ask, plus of course I'd come across as a complete nightmare client...



I do think you kind of get a nose for whats right or not, based on previous experiences so coming new into getting people must be an utter nightmare! Heres an interesting example of what we had done 3 yrs ago. We bought a 100yr old rental property. On purchase we had to have the lead lined parapet gutter repaired as rainwater was feeding back into the walls. hmmm where to start then  so I got 3 separate roofers to have a look and their prices ranged from about £700 to £2000 to do this job. In the end I went with the £2000 and got property vendor prior to purchase to split cost 50/50 but it was still a £2K job. The firm we had, specialised in lead work on churches, stately homes etc. It was obviously worth their while doing this and we got a mint job. I can almost guarantee that had we gone with any of the random roofers/ leadworkers we would have paid less money but likely would have issues in the future and roof work is not something I can do. 

BUT paying more does NOT guarantee a good job as lots of firms out there like the "get what you pay for" "pay cheap pay twice' brigade play on peoples fears and dont do any more of a good job than a cheap quote.

Unambiguous recommendation has to be the way to go but not recommends from friends IMO


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Feb 2018)

A rule of thumb was always not to employ firms who advertised in Yellow Pages - as you were paying for the advert.


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## rafezetter (14 Feb 2018)

MattRoberts":2b7r4xj0 said:


> I come at it from a similar but different angle: I've not really engaged with any trades people yet but will need to in the near future, and I'm worried that I'll struggle to find the quality that I would now expect.
> 
> Before getting into DIY / woodworking, I didn't really understand the difference between quality work and 'get the job done'. Since then I've developed an appreciation for trades people that do high quality work. The trouble is, I have no idea how you find them. Do you get a tiler in for a quote and then start grilling them about ensuring that all the tiles are flush with no lipping, and that there is the right amount of waterproof membrane overlap behind the tiles in a shower enclosure etc?!
> 
> I'm guessing not, as I'm definitely no expert, so there would be a thousand things I don't know to ask, plus of course I'd come across as a complete nightmare client...



As a person relatively new to selling my services for this sort of thing I would absolutely expect to be grilled in some form or other - it's thier money and they have the right.

With so many horror stories of tradespeople of the "bodgit and scarper" variety, any decent person who stands by thier quality of work shouldn't have an issue with the customer asking for references, and now with digital devices making it easy, reference photos of your work. 

If they are proud of thier work you won't even have to ask, they will understand you need reassurance, and provide all the necessary without being asked, including details of thier insurances. To them it might be "just another tiling job", but to you, it's money, hassle, and not least you'll be the one looking at it on a daily basis.

The flipside of course is to make sure you as the customer do your part as well, deposit up front for any materials outlay (and don't be shy about asking to see the receipts), pay promptly and understand any changes to the work will have to be paid for on top.

Of course I'm new to the game and things might seem different over time, but I don't see why they should - I learned something from a very successful contractor that had a simple mantra "do the work as if it was your own house, and your mother in law was watching".

One of the reasons so many of the, frankly crooked, tradespeople are around is because customers don't grill them ENOUGH, and put up with BS. I know tradespeople get this too, but as long as the details are in writing, and it's clear any additionals are charged extra - everyone knows where they stand and it should be simple.

he says naively.....

Edit: I guess the other thing is to find out what thier stock in trade is - I've shared a house with a builder for 13 years - I'd be more than happy for him to build me the house, and lay out a driveway, but I would never ask him to do any more than give the walls a basecoat of paint. I think the "Oh I can do everything, me" tradesman is obviously the kind to cut corners and have the "that'll do" attitude and my housemate is no exception, I've worked with him a few times and the level of what he calls "finished" has made me cringe - but he still gets paid, so who's fault is that?


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## julianf (14 Feb 2018)

Last time I had someone round was when some slates moved on the roof after a storm.

£40 quote was cheaper than a roof ladder. He did three separate areas.
I mentioned that both my neighbours also had issues, so he did both of their houses too. Then charged us each £20, instead of the original £40.

We would have all been happy to pay £40 each, I'm sure!

One man band with sign written van. Easy to communicate with. No issues.


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## sunnybob (14 Feb 2018)

a sign of a good tradesman is that he cant get to you for three weeks.
if he can come round in a half hour.....pass.


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## Roxie (14 Feb 2018)

When I have needed a specialist tradesperson I have used "trust a trader", looked at the feedback from previous customers. Used this system several times and have not been disappointed with the resultant workforce.


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

sunnybob":38ewtrhq said:


> a sign of a good tradesman is that he cant get to you for three weeks.
> if he can come round in a half hour.....pass.



Not always true as gaps in schedules due to unexpected events, especially the weather in the UK can and does happen however it is a good indicator. 

In the 20 years I was in business as a small builder I always had a waiting list, sometimes a very long one and customers made the choice to wait or go elsewhere, most waited. I was never the cheapest and didn't try to be, what I did was price work realistically and fairly, would never rip anyone off or overprice a job because I didn't want it, better to say no in the first place! 
What I did do was ensure that all my costs were covered, I made a profit, and estimates were detailed in writing. Anyone who doesn't do that might find themselves losing money and will cut corners imo.

BTW it was suggested that materials receipts should be asked for, if anyone had asked me that they would have been told to go elsewhere as I would see that as an immediate lack of trust which works both ways so either accept the price or not. A tradesman after all has to trust his customer to play fair as well and many of them don't.

I built up an excellent reputation and was probably more of a perfectionist than was good for my pocket but it meant I never advertised, apart from a signwritten van and all my work was via personal recommendation.
This ensured that my customers got the value for money they wanted and I got paid, promptly. The two occasions when payment was slow resulted in me refusing later work for those people and I told them the reasons.

It worked for me and 2 years after retiring I'm still being begged by previous customers to work for them. I'm too busy enjoying the rest of my life to do that. Don't know how I ever found time to work. 

cheers
Bob


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

Rafazetter I think you have newcomers enthusiasm :wink:

I think for many long established trades it works like this - with every enquiry they are looking at....

1. profitablity of the job in question
2. hassle factor of the job (job and customer)

so to start with if a firm is really busy they likely dont want the work unless its profitable. If its not that profitable, they'll still consider it but will look at the hassle factor. What they dont want is a job that doesnt make good money that has hassle as at that point you are likely to be palmed off.

So what is hassle factor for a busy firm? well, I would say a customer that doesnt trust them to do a good job and is too questioning. I think thats the reality for alot of busy firms who can take or leave the work. And if they are that busy it means they are good.

So the best combo is someone new with bags of enthusiasm and eager to please not some jaundiced individual who picks and chooses.

edit
The above applies alot less to bigger firms as theres no personal agendas and sometimes these firms have so many people on the road that they need all the work they can get


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## Brandlin (14 Feb 2018)

Keith 66":j3xqf1dm said:


> Im the opposite, i dont like big companies as you are liable to have just as many problems & will pay far more.
> I built a big extension & did a lot of it with a small builder & employed various trades as required, turned out far cheaper & me working on it as well kept them on their toes & kept the quality right.
> Paying pound notes dont half keep the price down too.



So, you had to be there and work on the job to keep your cheaper small builders up to scratch then? 
And you advocate the paying of cash ... presumably to illegally avoid VAT?


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## Doug71 (14 Feb 2018)

I have been a self employed joiner for years and could write an essay on this!

It must be a nightmare having to look in the Yellow pages to find a plumber, electrician etc. I know some good ones but they are generally too busy with their good regular customers to take on new ones unless it is an interesting job. 

I know some good big firms but they do know how to charge, the smaller ones are often better value.

I don't do cash discounts and would avoid anybody who does.

I would generally not be happy showing people receipts for materials, I add a bit on to most things, that is just how it works. 

If a tradesman doesn't get back to you with a quote its because he didn't want the job, it would be better if they told you at the time but unfortunately they rarely do. 

All I can suggest is go on recommendations, it works both ways, if someone has got my number from one of my good customers chances are they will turn out to be a good customer also.

Doug


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

julianf":37615dvx said:


> Last time I had someone round was when some slates moved on the roof after a storm.
> 
> £40 quote was cheaper than a roof ladder. He did three separate areas.
> I mentioned that both my neighbours also had issues, so he did both of their houses too. Then charged us each £20, instead of the original £40.
> ...


He was ridiculously cheap and probably won't be at it for long.


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

Jacob":38hgp2yu said:


> julianf":38hgp2yu said:
> 
> 
> > Last time I had someone round was when some slates moved on the roof after a storm.
> ...


What Jacob said !

I would throw the question back at you Julian. Would you go up a ladder and work on a roof with the potential of risk injury or death for £20 or £40? - I doubt it. - I certainly would not!


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## Sheffield Tony (14 Feb 2018)

Hate it, so don't use many. 

Dislike the evasiveness over VAT. Can't understand why it is so hard to get correct paperwork out of them - Hetas stove installers, FENSA window fitters, gas installers - all either no paperwork, needed reminding, or not properly filled out.

The best of them have been nice chaps, done a decent job, but unreliable. I suspect just doing enough work to pay the bills.

The worst of them have been borderline aggressive at the mention of paperwork, contracts or VAT.


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## Halo Jones (14 Feb 2018)

I also hate getting in trades. Renovating our house I see all the bodges that previous plumbers, electricians and joiners have made (I know it was the trades that did this as the previous owners were allergic to tools!). The only trade we have had to get in was an electrician and despite getting good references for him he was terrible and did unsafe work. Had to make him re do work twice and he grumbled that was how any one else would have done it. He is not coming back to finish the work off!


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## Geoff_S (14 Feb 2018)

Isn't this why so many of us are so called DIY'ers?

I still have to get trades in from time to time with the big jobs and things I am not allowed to do, gas for example. But I have to grit my teeth almost on every occasion. Especially where I can't do a job on my own, not because I don't know how but because it is just too big.

I've just got over an extension. Usual b*ll**ks about extras and "that's the way it's done guv". Really? "Well don't do it that way, do it my way 'cos I'm flipping well paying and you're talking b*ll**ks!" We end up having an understanding that I am not an imbecile and I am watching every detail of their work.

Anyway, the extension is now finished and would be a good job but for the leaking roof! I've found where it's leaking, are they coming back to fix it? Of course they are ....... are they f**k! Fortunately I know what to do to fix it, even though I'm just an amateur DIY'er!

This is by no means a scientifically measured assessment, but from my experience most of them, even those with letters after their
name are a bunch of chancers. Never assume anything else and be prepared to be disappointed. It's a bonus then if you're not.

My apologies to those trades here that are expert and honest, I know you must exist I just don't know where.


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

I learned very early on that being beaten down on price and quality of work can be a disaster - if it fails you are expected to return and lose even more time and money by putting it right.
Don't let the b*sterds beat you down!
Had some very shity clients over the years. The worst are the know-it-alls who think they know exactly how it should be done and exactly how much it should cost. 
Those looking for competitive quotes are to be avoided - if they know no better than to go by price alone then let them employ some cheapskate twerp who knows as little about it as they do.
You price a job up then some ask for your 'best price' - to which the answer is a polite f.o.
Some want you to break a price down and will the argue about each item, or will spot something cheaper on Amazon - as if you base your pricing on cheapest Amazon offer!
There's a sort of syndrome which you grow to recognise from their attitudes; "R sole clients to be avoided" - and sometimes get the chance to warn other tradesmen away from the too, or advise them to stick 25% on to the estimate to cover contingencies!
Had a sh*thead farmer who said he only paid his bills on lady day or something - once a year.
But have had many happy clients, usually by word of mouth, who are helpful, considerate, appreciative and pay the bills immediately and recognise a job well done.


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":2t2f5q5h said:


> ....... I got 3 separate roofers to have a look and their prices ranged from about £700 to £2000 to do this job. In the end I went with the £2000 and got property vendor prior to purchase to split cost 50/50 but it was still a £2K job. The firm we had, specialised in lead work on churches, stately homes etc. It was obviously worth their while doing this and we got a mint job. I can almost guarantee that had we gone with any of the random roofers/ leadworkers we would have paid less money but likely would have issues in the future and roof work is not something I can do......


Funnily enough my early learning experience (see post above) was similar to this. I said a leaking valley gutter between two large roof pitches needed taking back and completely re-building. Covering with new lead would be no good if the structure below was not solid. £2k plus. and internal work extra. This was some years ago it would be a lot more now.
They said they were skint and no way could afford it so I offered cheapo alternative of painting with bitumastic and covering joints with sticky tape etc. £150 . Very difficult to identify the precise points of leakage so it might have done the job.
I told them no guarantee and it failed a year later. They got somebody else in to do a proper job at a proper price! All I got was reputation as a bodger!


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

try being an english landlord with a welsh rental property that you live 90 miles a way from :shock: . Theres only one way to get things done and thats to get your wallet out lol.

Aside from Wales, never beat a trade down in price IMO

99% of them are in it for the money (and why not) thus they will only want to do whats most profitable. If its not profitable , its down to their goodwill even to talk to you. Trying to get a job done at a reasonable price quickly and well is nigh on impossible IMO

Times have changed from when trades were subservient "and knew their place" and customer is king to having gone full circle where they will pick and choose and work for you if you are lucky  

Cynicism and jaundice sets in after 20 years which means they work slower and no price is ever enough (you dont want one of these guys  )

So its not only me then lol - this thread has made me feel a whole lot better  

PS great respect to those trades that do the right thing..I'm being slightly tongue in cheek here


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

Geoff_S":9b6t9vok said:


> .....
> Anyway, the extension is now finished and would be a good job but for the leaking roof! ....


 Probably because you insisted on them doing it your way! :lol: :lol:


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":2djoxf6r said:


> try being an english landlord with a welsh rental property that you live 90 miles a way from :shock: . Theres only one way to get things done and thats to get your wallet out lol.
> 
> Aside from Wales, never beat a trade down in price IMO
> 
> ...



I expect local Welsh tradesmen would have a lot of sympathy for an absentee English landlord looking to get work done on the cheap! :lol: :lol:
Not least because of the inflated rents and house prices they would be paying, due to holiday lets, 2nd homes, absentee landlords etc etc


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

Jacob, yes exactly! got to tread very carefully and just pay!!


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

Jacob":10n8zl7i said:


> I learned very early on that being beaten down on price and quality of work can be a disaster - if it fails you are expected to return and lose even more time and money by putting it right.
> Don't let the b*sterds beat you down!
> Had some very shity clients over the years. The worst are the know-it-alls who think they know exactly how it should be done and exactly how much it should cost.
> Those looking for competitive quotes are to be avoided - if they know no better than to go by price alone then let them employ some cheapskate twerp who knows as little about it as they do.
> ...



That's exactly how I approached it Jacob although I was very polite.
I guess I was lucky to always have more than enough work so was never tempted to accept work via a phone call from unknowns who spotted me in the advertising lists I never subscribed to or insurance work where I knew they just wanted a few estimates.

Many of my former customers became and have remained friends.

Bob


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":1gi0r9ju said:


> Jacob, yes exactly! got to tread very carefully and just pay!! one benefit I think is the welsh don't like spending money so I think in a way the trades there like the English as they pay more..


If you think the Welsh are somehow different from the English then that attitude won't do you much good, not least because you are horribly wrong. 
I lived in Wales for a long time and loved it - and the people I lived and worked with.


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## transatlantic (14 Feb 2018)

I've had three different companies come to service my boiler and don't want to use any of them again. All of them were well recommened with reviews online (I think that is where I am going wrong)

- The first seemed to know what he was doing but was openly bad mouthing the company he worked for and was explaining how they overcharge and don't give proper training, and was going to leave as soon as he could.

- The second introduced leaking issues after he corrected a radiator. He came back to repair the first leak, but it leaked again and then he stopped replying to my calls

- The last guy. Well. I have no confidence he knew what he was doing. He asked to look at the previous service document to see how to configure the flue.


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

@ jacob you dont know what I think of the welsh. I actually like wales and like the welsh. It is a fact that areas of wales are impoverished therefore by definition the homeowners will not be paying the kind of rates people pay round where I live.


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":3sndbjn0 said:


> 99% of them are in it for the money (and why not) thus they will only want to do whats most profitable. If its not profitable , its down to their goodwill even to talk to you.
> 
> Times have changed from when trades were subservient "and knew their place" and customer is king to having gone full circle where they will pick and choose and work for you if you are lucky
> 
> ...


Tongue in cheek accepted why should a skilled tradesman be subservient Matt? 
Assuming they are truly skilled and take pride in their work you are paying for that knowledge and expertise in the same way as you would a dentist, financial advisor or anyone else who makes a living from their talent.

I seriously doubt your "99%" statistic, there are a lot of genuine guys out there doing their best with increasingly difficult customers with unrealistic expectations. It's the unqualified, unscrupulous chancers who cause the problem.

I often did small favour jobs for people foc and at unsociable hours and always willing to give advice when asked as my view was that what goes around comes around and I know I got the bigger paying work because of that.

I didn't make a fortune just a reasonable living away from the previous stressful occupation where you were only as good as yesterdays results.



> Trying to get a job done at a reasonable price quickly and well is nigh on impossible IMO


Because the good ones usually have a waiting list.

Bob


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

no I didnt say they should be subservient its that they used to be or moreso back then than now. Attitudes have changed and trades can earn alot of money and call the shots, obviously as a trade myself this is all good. Maybe 99% a bit high then  but why do people go to work?


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":3aw0f6l0 said:


> no I didnt say they should be subservient its that they used to be or moreso back then than now. Attitudes have changed and trades can earn alot of money and call the shots, obviously as a trade myself this is all good. Maybe 99% a bit high then  but why do people go to work?


Fair enough.


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

Lons":3b51tvah said:


> [email protected]":3b51tvah said:
> 
> 
> > no I didnt say they should be subservient its that they used to be or moreso back then than now. Attitudes have changed and trades can earn alot of money and call the shots, obviously as a trade myself this is all good. Maybe 99% a bit high then  but why do people go to work?
> ...



Lons do you think I'm right saying this? I do find it interesting this shift that seems (to me) to have happened where trades are the new proffessionals rather than the guys that got their hands dirty "working for others" The problem alot of householders have I think is that they havnt moved with the times in recognising this hence possibly the frictions that can occur between the two parties. Trades have woken up to the fact that they have skills that people need and why shouldnt they earn as much as the others for providing these skills. Where it goes slightly wrong IMO is that they now have the earning power but dont pay attention to the detail


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

> Trying to get a job done at a reasonable price quickly and well is nigh on impossible IMO


Because many people seem to think a reasonable price is much less then they themselves would be happy to earn.
Most tradesmen don't charge anything like enough.


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":qsnbof0l said:


> .... Where it goes slightly wrong IMO is that they now have the earning power but dont pay attention to the detail


Whereas your typical solicitor will do a perfect job, charge peanuts and be off the case in a flash.
We spent an hour with a barrister. That alone cost £1k and we still lost £50k (would have been 100k) over a bad deal with another solicitor over a legacy. That was after 3 years of wrangling. They all got paid, the solicitor who cause the problem was covered by insurance, the only losers were ourselves.
Local chap serviced our boiler. Took him an hour, charged £60.


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## Halo Jones (14 Feb 2018)

This is an interesting thread. All the would be "customers" are saying they don't know how to get good trades folks in to do work and on the whole have had a lot of bad experiences. Then those in the trades are saying there are a lot of a-hole customers who should be avoided at all costs :lol: 

As a "customer" could someone in the trades write a list of the things I should and should not ask to determine whether someone has a higher than average chance of doing a decent job?


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## julianf (14 Feb 2018)

Jacob":35q3y96v said:


> julianf":35q3y96v said:
> 
> 
> > Last time I had someone round was when some slates moved on the roof after a storm.
> ...


 

I don't know - he did some slates on our roof about 5 years back, so it's not like he's gone out of business yet.

His day rate is 150. I was able to present him with a job that he could do on his way back from a days work. So on that day, he would have earned £210, but obviously got home a bit later than normal.

Seems to me like he is probably doing ok.


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## rafezetter (14 Feb 2018)

Wow....

I don't know whether to just take myself out the back and hang myself now, or just decide to ignore what most of you have said.

I'm not in it for the money, I'm here for the same reason Lons was - I rise or fall on my own merits, rather than some corporate targets for fat cats already with more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime.

I'm going to still do the best work I can, at prices my conscience can live with, because at the end of the day it'll be the only legacy I leave behind.

Maybe that makes me stupid, or naive, but at least it'll be MY choices, mostly.

I'll still be happy if people ask me for receipts, because "adding a little extra because that's just how it is" is the reason why so many customers think they have to keep an eye on you. I've had a trades person say "I want a new festool vac, I'll just roll it into my next customers price" - and with a totally straight face as though it was the most natural thing - I think that's immoral, especially considering it's a deductable anyway.

When companies like Ikea, Lidl and Aldi offer good value because thier buying power means thier overheads are lower and they can pass that on to the customer, the customers appreciate it, and in turn the company thrives, because they get more custom. 

As far as the "displays lack of trust" - unless you have done work for this person before, and there's an anomaly they want to check (it's thier money.. remember?) then most work is for new people who don't know you from Adam, getting huffy because they want to check you are not chiselling is completely understandable, and checking the receipts on the first occasion might be the only time they feel the need to, if it all looks kosher, they relax and you can crack on.

You work out the costs, add your margin and that's it. Folding in "personal extras" under the guise of something else is obviously not above board, otherwise you'd not be hiding it; and the truth is when you have your car serviced and they add all those "extras" that you didn't ask for or they said you needed, you are rightly suspicious and annoyed, same goes for those "all inclusive" holidays, that have surcharges for everyday things.

Some might call it karma.


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## Just4Fun (14 Feb 2018)

rafezetter":klybwynw said:


> I'll still be happy if people ask me for receipts, because "adding a little extra because that's just how it is" is the reason why so many customers think they have to keep an eye on you. I've had a trades person say "I want a new festool vac, I'll just roll it into my next customers price" - and with a totally straight face as though it was the most natural thing - I think that's immoral, especially considering it's a deductable anyway.


Over here in Finland I have had a few people operate quite differently to the way the trades do in the UK. What they do is just go to the supplier (builders merchants or wherever), get what they need, and have the bill sent directly to me. This helps their cash flow and means I get the itemised bills directly from the source. It removes any chance of them adding a mark-up on the materials, which is good for me but maybe bad for them. It also means I can be billed by a supplier I have no direct contract with and the supplier is left billing someone they may have never seen or heard of, but they seem to do it so the system works. I don't know what would happen if I refused to pay, or disputed a bill.


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

Don't hang yourself just yet Rafezetta, life is too short already! #-o 

I got a lot out of doing the best job I possibly could - pride! If someone wanted a cheap bodge job I said thanks but no thanks!

Why should I show a customer, new or not, receipts for materials? I repeat, if a customer ever asked me to show those I would politely refuse the job. They are at liberty to give the work to whoever they choose and if I have given them a detailed quote or estimate then take it or leave it. As a small business I had to trust that customer would pay me promptly so trust works both ways. Should a tradesman be saying " show me your bank statement to prove you have the means to pay?

I bought at trade prices and sometimes passed on part of the discount but that is imo honest legitimate profit and the customer if buying himself wouldn't get that trade discount. I factored some of that profit into paying my overheads and yes that included a small % for vehicle running costs, replacement of tools which is fair as you need to replace due to wear and tear, loss and breakage. The remainder was used to grow my business. Yes they can be written off in your accounts against tax but that's only true if you're making money in the first place.
The full cost of tools or machinery to a job isn't on unless specifically needed and made clear on the estimate. 
I did a few times allow a customer to provide the materials, BIG MISTAKE, every time there were problems with those or delayed delivery then left for me to sort which cost me time and money.
Where businesses get it wrong is forgetting to cover the little costs like running around to pick up materials, time chasing on the 'phone, using all those fixings out of stock and not including in the costs, I could go on, they all have to be paid for in the end do they not!

Get tradesmen via recommendation, ask to see examples of past work and if possible view a couple in person and ask those customers what their experience was like. I wouldn't trust on line reviews as far as I could throw them and am highly suspicious of some of the organisations who have few checks and sign almost anyone who will pay the fee to join. The number of sales calls I got from these organisations became a nuisance.

As an aside I'll give you an example of an a***le customer, not my job but a close friend who took on a bathroom project for a wealthy customer. They made a beautiful job including a number of add on extras.
The job was originally priced at around £16000 excluding extra work and at the end when he was given an invoice this guy said " right let's talk about price". My mate walked away with £3000 less than the quote so in total was almost £4000 out of pocket as it was that or take the guy through the courts and he needed to pay for the expensive fittings. It broke his spirit and he packed in 6 months later.

I would have ripped the bathroom out had it been me.


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

Halo Jones":vvhq9scl said:


> As a "customer" could someone in the trades write a list of the things I should and should not ask to determine whether someone has a higher than average chance of doing a decent job?


I think I answered some of that in my response to Rafezetter.

I firmly believe there is no substitute for recommendations from people you know, family, friends, neighbours, colleagues, the postie, shopkeeper we all know lots of people so ask around then ask for examples of past work similar to yours and visit some of those in person to ask those customers how it went.
Make sure they have liability insurance and get everything in writing, a simple contract with time schedules is easy enough. Objections to any of this should set the alarm bells ringing and you should get several estimates to compare not just prices but details.

Once the job is underway, be reasonable but firm if necessary, pay agreed deposit or justifiable costs up front but don't be pressured into paying more as a genuine business won't ask that of you.
Lastly, if happy at the end then pay up immediately and pass the guys name on to others.

Bob


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## Lons (14 Feb 2018)

Just an aside in case it applies to anyone reading this thread.

Very small jobs are a pita to most small businesses and prices are normally way out of proportion due to overheads, travel costs and disruption to the days work which is often why it's hard to find anyone who'll even quote.
If you have small jobs then save them up to at least a full days work and tradesmen will be much more likely to accept and charge a reasonable rate.


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## [email protected] (14 Feb 2018)

in terms of due diligence I'd go a step further if I was looking at paying someone an appreciable sum ie building work . Look up company names on CompanyCheck website for financial status and check out directors etc. If I were looking to get a £30K extension built I may well baulk at using a company thats been going 3 years and is about to be struck off with lots of debt however well they have been recommended. A service provider is only as good as the people behind it whether one man band or LTD company and it pays to check the people themselves out.


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## Doug71 (14 Feb 2018)

I can't see why a customer would want to see any of my receipts? We agree a price for the job which includes all materials and labour and I do the job for that price, it is no concern of theirs what I pay for things.

It is normal practice to add a percentage to materials, most of my suppliers will not deal with the public, even with a bit added on it is still cheaper for them then they would buy elsewhere.

Doug


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## Doug71 (14 Feb 2018)

Just4Fun":1se4p5d2 said:


> rafezetter":1se4p5d2 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll still be happy if people ask me for receipts, because "adding a little extra because that's just how it is" is the reason why so many customers think they have to keep an eye on you. I've had a trades person say "I want a new festool vac, I'll just roll it into my next customers price" - and with a totally straight face as though it was the most natural thing - I think that's immoral, especially considering it's a deductable anyway.
> ...



There are suppliers in this country who will invoice the trades customer directly but it is not as good as it seems. 

For example customer wants kitchen, builder says go look at kitchens at XXXXXXX I have an account there you can use. The kitchen supplier tells the builder the cost of the kitchen and asks him how much he wants them to bill his customer for. Kitchen might cost £3000, he says bill customer for £3750. Customer thinks they are getting kitchen at builders trade price but they are paying over the odds, the kitchen supplier then credits the builders account with the £750 knowing he will spend it with them. 

Happens all the time and is just so wrong.

So be warned the builder is not always doing you a favour by getting you billed directly from his supplier.

Doug


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## DrPhill (14 Feb 2018)

A recent experience - our bathroom refit.

Asked 5 people around who they would recommend. Three independently recommended the same chap. Lets call him Bruce. It was October, so there was a quiet window coming up - no-one wants a major job in the house going on near crimbo, so Bruce reckons it will be done before the festivities start.

Bruce came twice to discuss the job, as it was complex (to my mind) involving tidying up ch runs, walk-in shower with big glass sheet, outside tap (spurred off bathroom) roof vent for the fan, false ceiling, coving, all pipes buried in the wall, electrics back to the box. He was making sure that we both knew what was happening. He was obstinate about some things - he is a perfectionist. As I could appreciate his arguments I deferred on most points.

He gave a quote and we winced, checked with other folk that this was within range, gritted our teeth and agreed. His quote included a schedule of payments.
He turned up when he said, did exactly what he said, finished when he said, and charged what he said. He organised the sparks as a sub-contractor and took responsibility for that. His work is immaculate, and we are happy.

Key point for us was that he was willing to really engage with us to explain/discuss the job. His obstinacy was a plus as he could be argued round on some points, but I felt others were a principle for him. (And a 65-ish he knows a dam sight more than I ever will about the job). His creativity and positive attitude were a big plus in discussions.
His clear payment schedule gave us confidence, and I payed on the dot by electronic transfer. 

When I need another job done he will be my first call. He or whoever he recommends will get first opportunity. 

Does that help any?


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## Chip shop (14 Feb 2018)

One thing that has occurred to me while reading this thread is what trades are we talking about? It might sound like a daft question, but I can turn my hand to most disciplines in the building trade. 

I can plaster (after a fashion), I can lay blocks somewhere near plumb, I can point brickwork but some of the mortar will fall on the floor, I can do electrical work but I only have a vague understanding of regs, I can wipe a joint but they sometimes weep.

However if you want a door made, hung in a new casing that I guarantee will be square and plumb , or you need a sash (or any other window for that matter) window replacing or repaired, or you need a fitted unit or even a piece of furniture I can and will do it.

My point (finally) is that I've always been very wary of people who drive vans with stickers all over them that claim that they undertake plastering, plumbing, electrical work, brick work, civil engineering, gutter cleaning, joinery, ground works, roofing blah blah blah and usually all aspects of building work undertaken.

If you need a chippie employ a chippie. Plumbing get a plumber. I guess you get the point.

If a customer rang me and asked me to skim a ceiling, I'd say let me ring Steve to see if he's free...obviously Steve is a plasterer


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## Geoff_S (14 Feb 2018)

Jacob":3uhsdtmh said:


> Geoff_S":3uhsdtmh said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Bloody hell Jacob, you could have something there. My fault, because I only explained that I wanted a flat roof but hadn't made it clear that it needed to keep the rain out. Yep, what a fool I've been :roll:


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2018)

Geoff_S":kbrep53b said:


> ......Really? "Well don't do it that way, do it my way 'cos I'm flipping well paying and you're talking b*ll**ks!" We end up having an understanding that I am not an imbecile and I am watching every detail of their work......



Looks like the buck stops here! :lol:

I bet they were glad to get off the job. If they read this thread they'll be laughing their heads off!


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## Bm101 (15 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":xm5kqi0j said:


> Jacob, yes exactly! got to tread very carefully and just pay!! one benefit I think is the welsh don't like spending money so I think in a way the trades there like the English as they pay more..


 
Replace Welsh with Indian or Nigerian or Pakistani Matt. Now read it back and think if you'd post that on a forum and expect people from those countries not to to take exception to your statement. I suppose I'm misunderstanding your comments. Some of your best friends are even Welsh eh? 
#-o


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## Brandlin (15 Feb 2018)

Bm101":vxybqqgu said:


> [email protected]":vxybqqgu said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, yes exactly! got to tread very carefully and just pay!! one benefit I think is the welsh don't like spending money so I think in a way the trades there like the English as they pay more..
> ...



Couldn't agree more. General judgemental stereotypes don't help anyone.


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2018)

Chip shop":1csio4u7 said:


> One thing that has occurred to me while reading this thread is what trades are we talking about? It might sound like a daft question, but I can turn my hand to most disciplines in the building trade.
> 
> I can plaster (after a fashion), I can lay blocks somewhere near plumb, I can point brickwork but some of the mortar will fall on the floor, I can do electrical work but I only have a vague understanding of regs, I can wipe a joint but they sometimes weep.
> 
> ...


Agree.
When I started I had a go at everything and realised it meant that I did a lot of it not very well. So I decided to specialise in joinery and just do that not very well.


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## [email protected] (15 Feb 2018)

Bm101":2s6zhmar said:


> [email protected]":2s6zhmar said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, yes exactly! got to tread very carefully and just pay!! one benefit I think is the welsh don't like spending money so I think in a way the trades there like the English as they pay more..
> ...



thank for pointing out my post, I've edited it accordingly...


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## Lons (15 Feb 2018)

Phill

Your bathroom project could easily have been one of my jobs as it describes exactly how I tried to run my business and why I never needed to look for work.
Make no mistake, the guy was checking you out as much as the reverse and I'm sure that had you insisted you wanted corners cut he would have walked away.
Comes back to my point that responsibility and trust works both ways and now he has a satisfied long term customer while you have someone you can rely on. Until he retires that is! I had wailing and complaining from some saying "who can we go to now? You can't retire!"


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Feb 2018)

rafezetter":314qzspy said:


> I've had a trades person say "I want a new festool vac, I'll just roll it into my next customers price" - and with a totally straight face as though it was the most natural thing - I think that's immoral, especially considering it's a deductable anyway ...


 Funny enough, my neighbour said exactly that. What really amuses me is the "Icthys" symbol on his van. :lol:


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2018)

One thing clear about this thread - people seem to get the tradespeople they deserve. :lol:


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## Brandlin (15 Feb 2018)

Jacob":1sv69qao said:


> One thing clear about this thread - people seem to get the tradespeople they deserve. :lol:


Agreed,


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## powertools (15 Feb 2018)

In my experience having had a new house built in the garden of our previous house the people most likely to over charge and under perform are the ones who you have to employ to be able to get the project passed by building control.
In order of the most problems I had.

Hetas approved stove fitter.
Architect.
Structural engineer.
Plumber.
Electrician.
All other people involved in our project delivered what was expected at an acceptable price.


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## Lons (15 Feb 2018)

Brandlin":3hifadh8 said:


> Jacob":3hifadh8 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing clear about this thread - people seem to get the tradespeople they deserve. :lol:
> ...


+1


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## [email protected] (15 Feb 2018)

powertools":3sqfiil8 said:


> In my experience having had a new house built in the garden of our previous house the people most likely to over charge and under perform are the ones who you have to employ to be able to get the project passed by building control.
> In order of the most problems I had.
> 
> Hetas approved stove fitter.
> ...



its the ones that hold most accreditation then! how I wish I had been a central heating boiler engineer, thats all I can say :?


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## Geoff_S (15 Feb 2018)

I guess with some tradespeople it's like having to see a surgeon.

You have to but you don't really want to, there's going to be at least some pain and you'll be scarred for life, possibly better, possibly dead.


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## stuartpaul (15 Feb 2018)

Lons":1vgazvgq said:



> Brandlin":1vgazvgq said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1vgazvgq said:
> ...


What utter cobblers! I fail to see how you can draw such a conclusion from such limited information.

Jacob, - you are as usual just a wind up merchant.


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## DrPhill (15 Feb 2018)

Lons":zjv0v0al said:


> ........Make no mistake, the guy was checking you out as much as the reverse.......


You know I had never thought of it from that angle, but it makes sense. The initial meetings were actually quite fun because there were a couple of challenges needing solutions and we went back-and-forth until we found acceptable answers. I learned a lot just from that.


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## Geoff_S (15 Feb 2018)

The job - 14 x 50w down lighters, 2 dimmer switches rated at 400w max, 7 down lighters per switch.

Me : Mr Electrician, can you install these 14 down lighters with these 2 dimmer switches, 7 down lighters per switch? Will that be OK?

Mr E : Of course, no problem.

Some time later all installed.

Mr E : All done

Me : Great, but tell me why is this switch so hot?

Mr E : That's normal.

Me : Could it be that you've wired up 9 of the 50w down lighters to this hot switch and only 5 to the other?

Mr E : Why do you think that?

Me : Because when I turn this hot switch off, 9 of the lights go out.

Mr E : Oh yeh, but that's OK.

Me : So, I can leave this switch on that gets hot, and my house is in no danger of burning down?

Mr E : Of course you can, the fuse would trip on the board before that happens.

Roars of laughter from the audience =D> =D> =D> Unfortunately this is a true story. There are many more.


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2018)

Well nobody is perfect! How did he resolve it?


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## Geoff_S (15 Feb 2018)

Jacob":127cshw9 said:


> Well nobody is perfect! How did he resolve it?



Well, I suggested that he rewire it. Apparently that was a problem because of the positioning of the RSJ that had been installed where the wall had been taken down. When I asked him where he thought the RSJ should have been placed, he got a bit lost.

OK, I then suggested that he replace the 50w GU10 bulbs with 7w GU10 LED. Apparently there is no such thing.

So, I went down to the electric shop and bought some of these non existent 7w GU10 LED bulbs.

And I put them in, that much I can do, and the switch didn't heat up.


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## Lons (15 Feb 2018)

stuartpaul":3siwuagq said:


> Jacob":3siwuagq said:
> 
> 
> > One thing clear about this thread - people seem to get the tradespeople they deserve. :lol:
> ...


Hi Stuartpaul

The reason I agreed with Jacob was because he didn't suggest that forum members got what they deserve but rather the public in general, at least that's the way I read it, and I have personally seen many examples during the 20 years in business where that applied. 

I have had several potential customers whos' jobs I turned down come to me later for help and advice on how to put right the work they got done on the cheap or where they wouldn't accept original advice against specific materials or methods. A couple of these were pretty serious as well.

Although I rarely agree with Jacob I find myself in that position on this issue and I stand by that as my experience certainly isn't limited.

cheers
Bob


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2018)

Lons":35awdzp2 said:


> ... jobs I turned down come to me later for help and advice on how to put right the work they got done on the cheap or where they wouldn't accept original advice against specific materials or methods. A couple of these were pretty serious as well.....


Me too. Has happened several times. Last time I offered to visit, survey, take photos, write report etc - days work plus travel £200. They'd spent £15k on windows and other stuff, all rubbish. They thought my survey was too expensive. 
From quoting for the job I already had detailed info about the original stuff they were replacing, which now meant only I knew how it should have been done (period restoration etc.)
Soddem!


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## RobinBHM (15 Feb 2018)

I get that sinking feeling when I go round to visit a potential customer and their first words are 'we are on a really tight budget, so we want your cheapest quote'.

I have no issue with enquiries where people dont know if their budget is in the somewhere close to the cost of the job or not. What I dont like is the expectation I will drop my price to suit their budget. 

Or the dreamers, that want 17 different options quoting, or the job keeps expanding, but is way beyond the budget. These sort of issues are perhaps less likely with builders as usually the planning, building regs, structural calcs ptocess usually weeds these out.


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## [email protected] (15 Feb 2018)

so back on subject  

I find gas safe guys the most tricky to handle. Have dealt with some lovely people but also some horrors. Dealing with these people can be truly expensive but I have come to the conclusion that its better to pay a higher price in return for a fast and efficient service.


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## RobinBHM (15 Feb 2018)

Increasing regulations, building regs, testing etc etc, has meant that the cost of electrics and plumbing has increased significantly.

Electrics for example, any work means one or more circuits need testing. That could take up quite a bit of time.


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## [email protected] (15 Feb 2018)

I got no issue with regulation but if someone is going to be regulated and charge a premium price as a result of that then make sure we consumers get what we pay for. I had an aged combi break down 4 yrs ago. Got a gas safe guy out, he said boiler was scrap and quoted me £1K (all in) to replace with an Ideal so I snapped his hand off then had a think, postponed and got someone else in for a second opinion who put in new expansion vessel for £200 and the boiler lasted another 4 yrs. Well £1K to replace a combi is stupidity itself so dont know what was going through the guys head at all :? We've just had another one done which cost £1900 and the guys were in and out within 4 hrs so a good earner for them but although I winced at the quote didnt mind as they quoted and installed within 48 hrs in the middle of winter which kind of cemented in my mind that its better to pay good money to someone who runs their business efficiently, communicates and does a great job.


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## Robbo3 (16 Feb 2018)

phil.p":vpplpgec said:


> What really amuses me is the "Icthys" symbol on his van. :lol:


Put your glasses on Phil. That was the guys selling rotten wet fish.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Feb 2018)

[email protected]":1bocnyll said:


> ... how I wish I had been a central heating boiler engineer, thats all I can say :?



I was in hospital with guy four years ago who charged £80 a boiler service .......... he could do eight on a good day. £640 per day ain't bad money in my book.


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## Geoff_S (16 Feb 2018)

phil.p":85bw3dzm said:


> [email protected]":85bw3dzm said:
> 
> 
> > ... how I wish I had been a central heating boiler engineer, thats all I can say :?
> ...



It's not bad is it. Mind you, at that rate he'd have been VAT registered, a 40% tax payer and if employed by his own limited company he might have actually taken home £267 of that.

Then there is the matter of professional fees for his accountant, his certification fees and the cost of his van, diesel, tax, insurance, oh and public liability insurance and then regular course fees to keep his certification current and then of course his tools.

Then there is also the probability that he might like to take 4 weeks holiday a year like normal people, and the 8 days bank holiday and maybe he might need to go sick now and again.

Then there is of course the issue of him having to keep himself fully employed all of the time.

So that's going to hit that £267 per day as well.

As a general rule of thumb, if you run your business legally and you hit VAT registration levels, which is easier than some think, assume that you are going to lose at least 67% of the labour rate you charge for a ball park working figure, the bulk of which goes to the Treasury.

Unless it's all cash then there are other calculations that could be made.


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## Jacob (16 Feb 2018)

phil.p":yn8aody6 said:


> [email protected]":yn8aody6 said:
> 
> 
> > ... how I wish I had been a central heating boiler engineer, thats all I can say :?
> ...


But would it make up for the bad days?
A lot of cosily salaried people do this same calculation and conveniently forgot all the benefits of a "proper job".


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Feb 2018)

Two or three bad days aweek and he'd still earn way more than most people.


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## Jacob (16 Feb 2018)

But probably not if projected over a lifetime, compared to a steady salaried job with all the benefits and security.


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## Lons (16 Feb 2018)

Jacob":24f1tzs6 said:


> But probably not if projected over a lifetime, compared to a steady salaried job with all the benefits and security.


Especially if unlucky enough to have an accident, lengthy illness or your major tools or vehicle stolen where in a decent salaried job you'd be ok but self employed likely to be disastrous.

When I started on my own I really missed the guaranteed good salary, expense allowances, company car, business trips abroad and 8 weeks holiday not to mention the 40 hour working week with no weekends. All that goes out of the window.


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## mr edd (18 Feb 2018)

Some of my strangest interactions with customers.

Customer (tweed jacket and blowing pipe smoke all over me) ''do you think your capable of taking the door off and getting it to fit back properly again, it was a very expensive door don't cha know, i suppose you charge the earth as well, next door had the window and door surgeon chappie round, perhaps i ought to give him a call?? he got surgeon written on his van, your van looks very clean, got too much free time on your hands i should think, well don't keep me here all day, do you thinks you can manage to do the job or not? ''
Me '' to tell you the truth i'm not a very good joiner, would you like me to google the surgeons number for you and save you the trouble''
Customer ''wait there i'll get a pen''
I got in the van and drove off 

Joinery repair job
Customer ''you are going to use tanalised (pressure treated) timber for the repairs and replacement sashes aren't you?''
Me ''no i'm afraid not, it will be Douglas fir for the sashes and oak for the cills''
Customer ''oh well i always used to use it at my other houses, i think you should be using it here''
Me ''well if you want me to use a non joinery grade timber stored outside, covered in grit which will ruin the machine blades, sopping wet and god knows what effect the preservative leaking out of it will have on the glue joints and finish then i will not be offended if you would like to find someone else''

Standard outside job
Customer ''your not coming because its raining''
Me ''sorry i can't paint or repair in the rain''
Customer ''Well its going to be dry until 10am''

and the best one, a job 25 miles from where i live
Customer'' i would like you to do the job, but i only want you in the house when i'm there, i have important documents''
1st day, on the job, 
Customer ''Right so today you can work from 8 am until 10 am as i'm going out so you have to leave before 10 am but i'll be back at 4.30 pm so you can carry on then until 5.30 pm''


Customer just back from holiday abroad ''I'm very happy with the work that you have done but i'm not paying you''
Me ''why?''
Customer ''I cant afford it at the moment, you will have to wait a few months i have bills coming out''

Customer '' my husband would have done it if he had the time''
Me ''what spend 15 years as joiner and machinist and study for a degree in building survey as well?''

I have had so many good clients who are understanding, trust me to do the very best job i possible can or that can be done, be clear in what they require, pay on time, do not mind waiting for me complete someone else's work before i get to them,
but it only takes a few rude, insulting, undermining or just downright daft clients to make you a lot more cautious and maybe i'm too sensitive but it ruins my day having dealt with one of the above.


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## dzj (18 Feb 2018)

A recent interaction.

Customer "Why didn't you make the display/ checkout counter split level?"
Me "Because the drawings you gave me were all single level"
Customer "I don't have time to look at drawings"

Such a boring place the world would be without the nouveau riche.


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## davin (24 Feb 2018)

Sitting here at 8.30am waiting for the plasterer to turn up.


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## RobinBHM (24 Feb 2018)

He might text you in a mo to say the world has run out of plaster


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