# Hand Plane vs Electric <grin>



## Adam (11 Jan 2004)

Now, I am aware of which forum I'm in but as its a free for all, well, I couldn't resist.

I got a second hand elcetric plane (hitachi) and due to some damage, and having to order some new parts, and it being christmas I only got it going this evening.

It's got brand new blades on it and all I can say is wow! the finish is absolutely fantastic. So that got me thinking - how much better is the best hand plane, over an electric plane?

Or in tearout situations, would an electric plane be better than a handplane?

I open to the floor (or ALF) for comments?

Adam


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## Jeff (11 Jan 2004)

Well if what most people say is true I think a LieNielsen will win hands down every time. Don't think I'll ever know I can only dream of a LieNielsen. I would probably only wreck it anyway.
:lol: :lol:


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## Gill (11 Jan 2004)

Hi Adam

In tearout situations I've yet to find anything to compare with a Stanley #80, unless it's a scraper. Both have succeeded in polishing wildgrain yew for me after electric machines and conventional planes have exacerbated the problem.

Yours

Gill


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## Midnight (12 Jan 2004)

Adam
I'd agree with Gill. Only difference is that I use a 112 scraper. That said, the York pitch frog fitted in the 4 1/2 has virtually eliminated the tear out I was getting in highly figured Elm.

As for how much better... well (I'm probably gonna get fragged for this but) a tuned Stanley will give a far better finish than any electric planer ever could. The difference is in how they make the cut. Any rotary action plane will leave minute scallop shaped intentations in a board. They're probably too fine to feel but if you angle the board in the right light you'll see them as a series of horrizontal parralel lines. A hand plane should leave a smooth and perfectly even finish. Better quality planes (apparently) give a far better finish.


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## Alf (12 Jan 2004)

Mike has put his finger on it. That's why it's a mistake to use a piece of timber straight from the P/T too. In our house there's an RSJ clad with pine straight from the planer and everytime I see it I grind my teeth at the ridges that catch the light all along it. Tricky to hand plane a ceiling though... Having said which, you can get ridges parallel with the track of the plane from the camber or corners of the blade, so <gasp> even hand planes aren't perfect. :shock: 

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Electric? Wassatden? :lol:


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## gidon (12 Jan 2004)

Aren't those ridges you're seeing from having your planer blades set fractionally too high - the wood then bounces over the blades? This setting also depends on whether you're planing hard or softwood.

I'm really enjoying getting more into hand tools - I think a well tuned hand plane does get a nicer finish than my Scheppach p/t (don't have a hand electric planer) - but to be honest there's not an awful lot in it. It depends very much on what your standards are and what you're making. And how much time you have! I've been very pleased with furniture I've made without any hand planing or scraping - just sanding to 240 grit. Of course it could be a lot better! But then it would probably still be sitting in my shed unassembled! As it is it gets used everyday.

Cheers

Gidon


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## Adam (12 Jan 2004)

Out of a P/T yes, I know and can see the "ridges" that are caused by the blades, but last night, taking the cut very slowly and with the hand-electric planer with new blades, after finishing a cut, and holding it up against the light I couldn't see any ridges at all - and that surprised me.

So, presuming you can take a pass with an electric plane, slowly, and at that point the ridges are invisible to the human eye - does that still make them worse than a hand-plane?

I think I need to do another test tonight and plane a piece of rough stock, from one end with a hand-plane and the other with the electric plane. And yes, my hand plane is super sharp at the moment, so it is a like-for-like test.

Will report back!!

A_L


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## Gill (12 Jan 2004)

asleitch":3vqmrtcr said:


> I think I need to do another test tonight and plane a piece of rough stock, from one end with a hand-plane and the other with the electric plane.



Hi Adam

At the risk of being accused of trying to teach my granny how to suck eggs, I hope you make sure that you plane with the grain with _both _planes! I'd also suggest that you use a nice, figured piece of stock :twisted: .

Yours

Gill (who's a happy bunny now that Screwfix have just delivered a new 1850w Erbauer router and is off to play in the workshop  )


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## Adam (12 Jan 2004)

OK, my fault, I never even thought someone would presume otherwise  so .....yes I will be going with the grain. :roll:


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## Adam (12 Jan 2004)

http://www.geocities.com/asleitch/wood/ ... laning.htm

Answers please on a post card, or in here will do......

Left or Right? (with reasons).....

Adam

Apoligies for the website - if you can call it that - it's the best I could manage between getting home late, conducting the experiment, taking photos, eating, having a pint :lol: (after I was back in the house), transferring the pictures to the PC, creating a website, finding a random site to put it on, and uploading it. Then remembering unix doesn't recognise capital letters, so editing all my HTML code manually to fix the filenames. Yawn. And taking some pictures to put with my review of the Scheppach TS2500 on SawDustAlley site......


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## Gill (12 Jan 2004)

Hi Adam

I'm guessing that the machine planed the left hand side. There seems to be some scalloping and rather more tear-out than the timber on the right hand side.

That said, I am grossly overdue a visit to the optician  !

Now, all you need to do is run another test, this time with a scraper plane or hand scraper thrown into the mix :wink: .

Yours

Gill


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## Adam (13 Jan 2004)

>That said, I am grossly overdue a visit to the optician ! 

That's cheating, choosing one then adding a statement which covers you in the event of it being the other. Although blurry, the giveaway is at the bottom of the pictures. Go have another look!

A_L


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## Anonymous (13 Jan 2004)

Adam,

My understanding is that the power plane was designed for jobbing carpenters as a fast way of removing stock to leave a reasonable finish. I've never heard of them used for anything remotely resembling fine furniture work.

When I see an article in FWW or F&C about the use of tailed planes to achieve a final finish on a cabinet, I'll reconsider my decision to not buy one yet. But by then all my hand planes will be worthless as everybody will be getting rid of them in the race to the nearest Bosch/Makita/etc stockist...

Interesting test too - I'm not sure that the photo is enough to tell the difference with. I tested my LN LA smoother on some cat's paw oak (lots of small knots and swirly grain) against a decently setup old Stanley #5 and a sharp Clifton #3 over Christmas. There's no way that a photo could tell the difference, but a quick brush over with my fingertips told a very different story. The finish from all of them was pretty good, but from the low angle LN was very nearly good enough to finish, and I couldn't make out anything you could call tearout. Considering the number of knots and a complete grain reversal around them, this was quite an achievement.

Cheers,

AG


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## Philly (13 Jan 2004)

Hey All,
Just to add another opinion-if you sand through the grades after the timber comes out of the planer/thicknesser you remove the mill marks. Mind you, if the wood is friendly, i.e. not some crazy grained hardwood, a swipe with a finely set plane is way cleaner, more satisfying and leaves a beautiful surface.
Bottom line, whatever your working methods there is no excuse for leaving mill marks on your "fine furniture"!
regards,
Philly


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## Anonymous (13 Jan 2004)

Probably the easiest way to show up the difference between a hand plane finish and a machine planed one, whether a dedicated table type or hand held, is to apply a high gloss finish to it. No matter how fine the ripples, they may defeat the naked eye and even touch in the raw, but with light bouncing of the peaks and troughs left by the cutter block once it has been polished, you will soon wish you had put a hand plane, scraper or sanding block over it!

Andy


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## Gill (13 Jan 2004)

Hi Adam

If you reserve the right to embarrass me in public then I reserve the right to cheat  ! I'm quite capable of embarrassing myself without anyone's help, thank you very much :? .

Looking at the piccies again, you've aroused my suspicions that there might be some snipe on the right hand photo, which is very difficult to produce with a hand plane. As AG says, it's difficult to tell from photographs.

To be honest, both finishes appear to be of a similarly high standard and either would be acceptable to most woodworkers. It's just that I think anyone who is seeking the finest finish of all really ought to look at hand scrapers or scraper planes.

Yours

Gill


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## Adam (13 Jan 2004)

I will apply some oil, to try and emphasise the surface.

Nontheless, I think I stand by by original assertion that, an electric plane, with new blades, at low forward speed provides a superb finish. I mean honestly, if I have to oil it, to see the difference, it's getting pretty close? If nothing else, could it mean you could go straight from electric plane to scraper and cut out the hand plane altogether? I say this partly in jest, as I did try to indicate in the photographs that the safety gear, and the hassle of the electric plane means for small areas the setup doesn't outweigh the benefit of fast stock removal.

However, given the majority of manufacturers are no longer actively developing hand tools, or perhaps to say it another say, the most active area of R&D seems to be in power tools, we have manufacturers offering TS blades which offer "glue" ready finishes, - my test shows a power plane is pretty smooth - I know in the trade, the use of hand tools has dwindled as they find a power version to do every task they need - but surely this will creep into professional cabinet makers and enthusiasts as the difference in finish gets less and less?

Good news for collectors (cough cough ALF) as more stuff becomes redundent?

Adam


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## Adam (13 Jan 2004)

>If you reserve the right to embarrass me in public then I reserve the right to cheat 

Ahh, well, I haven't actually yet said which side is machined and which is hand planed, I'd like to see what other folks say. You need to look closely!

A_L


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## CYC (13 Jan 2004)

A tenner on the left is hand planed :lol:


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## Adam (13 Jan 2004)

So thats 1-1, ..... come on everyone else.....!

A_L


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## Alf (13 Jan 2004)

Oh 'eck, I hate these ones. If I get this wrong I'll never hear the end of it... :? I agree 100% with AG that it's nigh on impossible to tell from a picture, although it's fun to try and I appreciate the effort. And a nice glossy finish and a raking light would have been nice... However, now I've waited a week for the pics to download  , I'll plump for the right hand one being the machined one. Seems to me I can detect some parallel lines in it that the left hand one doesn't have, although I could have been drinking, eating magic mushrooms or be just plain delusional of course. I await humiliation at your leisure :lol: 

I bet you wish you'd closed those drawers before you let the planer run amok, eh? :lol: 

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Nice gloat on the vice, btw.


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## Adam (13 Jan 2004)

Blimey, you must have been studying carefully - the drawers were open, but fortunately all empty. So I just have had to vac them out. They were free from work as they were being thrown out. I've used the top few rows so far for stuff like needle files, taps and dies, scalpel blades that type of stuff. The rest are empty. Waiting for me to accumulate more "stuff".

I'll try and get some better pictures tonight.

Adam


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## Alf (13 Jan 2004)

Hmm, empty drawers. I had some of those once... :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## CYC (13 Jan 2004)

I think the left is the hand planed one because it appears that less material has been removed, the grooves are deeper. So I am thinking that you would have had to spend of lot of time to remove as much material as the electric planer with a hand plane, and seeing how much a mess you left the workbench!! you must have taken enough with the electric one hehe :wink:

Awaiting in line to be proven wrong :shock:


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## Noel (13 Jan 2004)

LEFT......for lots of obvious reasons.

Rgds

Noel


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## Signal (13 Jan 2004)

The left
No Right

aww I dont know the middle one bugrit!

Signal


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## frank (13 Jan 2004)

the left  now thats what a workshop should loot like :shock: knee deep in shavings


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## Adam (14 Jan 2004)

http://www.geocities.com/asleitch/wood/DSCN1551.jpg

Gill, gets it correct!

Signal gets runners up as he couldn't decide!!

Adam!

PS:

I know I know, the hand plane probably wasn't setup properly, I should have used a LN, the wood was bad, the picture wasn't good enough, a bright light was needed to really tell, it wasn't oiled, you need to feel it to really know, the focus was poor, I'm not competent etc. Well the last might be true......

If it makes you feel better, once I got a dab of oil on them the hand plane did look better, I was going to take a photo but got distracted photo- cataloging the contents of the workshop should it ever burn down or broken into..... and clearing out old hand planes, but ALF seems to have "offered" a new caring home for them......


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## Adam (14 Jan 2004)

Give me a few minutes and I'll edit the HTML code

Adam


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## Signal (14 Jan 2004)

WOHOO!

I have been thinking about this, yes I can do it  

If the plane where to have a helical blade surely the ripples 
would be far less apparent.

Signal


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## Adam (14 Jan 2004)

http://www.geocities.com/asleitch/wood/ ... laning.htm

Well, it seems to have squashed the image but it'll do.

Sorry, you have to download the page again, which is slow.

Adam


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## CYC (14 Jan 2004)

Well spotted Gill.
My theory about the mess goes out the window hahahahhahahaha :roll:


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## Alf (14 Jan 2004)

Urgh. I said I hated these kinds of questions.  

Right, Adam. Stop taking gloating pictures of your workshop contents and feeding my c*ll*ct*r alter-ego and get that pic of it oiled up PDQ!

Anyhow, how come Signal gets glory for indecision? Surely Frank and Noel should get some for picking left but not actually saying whether they meant the left was hand planed or machine  

Cheers, Alf


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## Noel (14 Jan 2004)

Well, so Frank and my goodself were spot on.....What's the prize then????

Rgds

Noel


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## Gill (14 Jan 2004)

Sorry guys, but the prize has already been delivered to the undisputed winner :twisted: .

Thank you Adam - most generous  !

Yours

Gill


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## frank (14 Jan 2004)

gill wot you gonner do wif all dem shavings then


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## Gill (14 Jan 2004)

Oak smoked sausages and chicken..... mmmmmm  ! Actually, I do have a smoker: it cost me £60 from one of the DIY sheds but you could easily make your own out of a metal dustbin. Mine comes into its own in barbecue season, especially with the woodshavings we've collected 8)  .

Yours

Gill


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