# wax question for custard and others



## sunnybob (21 Jun 2019)

I have been trying find an alternative finish for my wood. 
Memzey kindly gave me some of his home brewed patented eye of toad and ear of bat wax, assuring me sliced bread had no hope of competing. :lol: 

I have had major problems with it and after talking to memzey at length about procedures and times, and at his suggestion, I'm throwing this question open to all who use wax as a final coating.
Have you ever noticed that temperature affects the finish?

After following the instructions very carefully (several times! :shock: :shock: ), I cant get a shine of any quality and this wax will not dry. After 2 days it still marks from handling. This is on Bubinga, sanded to 220 grit.
Bear in mind I am now getting into summer proper, 35c is a normal day, 40c will be arriving shortly. Peaking as high as 43 in august 8) ,
Is this enough to make the wax unusable for me?

I have also used shellac for the first time (as per memzey's instructions) and that went quite well, drying very quickly and leaving a reasonable finish. I'm considering using that as a final finsh?


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## CHJ (21 Jun 2019)

If your wax blend has Bees Wax in it then it (the bees wax) will melt in the low 60's C, at your temperatures I would expect it to soften enough to hand mark, Bees Wax finished items often dull if regularly handled with just hand temperatures.

Carnauba wax is in the low to mid 80's.

Microcrystalline wax's are usually in the 80's or above and resist handling and water marks.


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## sunnybob (21 Jun 2019)

My security clearance isnt high enough to know the content, so I will have to wait and see if Memzey can confirm or deny that allegation. :shock: :roll:


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## custard (21 Jun 2019)

Chas has pretty much nailed it.

The problem with beeswax (or petroleum wax) based finishes is that, even if they don't melt, they certainly soften at hand temperatures. Consequently they can be a little unpleasant for surfaces that you'll frequently touch.

Carnauba wax fixes that problem, at least in the UK, because its higher melting point means it doesn't really begin to soften at hand temperature. The downside is that it's a lot harder to apply and buff up a genuine carnauba based hard wax (which is what memsey's wax will almost certainly be).

However, mediterranean summer temperatures mean all bets are off.

Personally I think one of the nicest finishes from a tactile point of view is shellac, I don't know why but it never seems to get sticky and even when it's super glossy it's not as slippy as you'd expect. Consequently I generally finish tool handles, boxes, and drawer pulls with shellac.


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## sunnybob (21 Jun 2019)

The shellac thing is good to know. I had to order 2 litres of meths because no local stores had ever heard of it :roll: 
So now at least I can use that up.


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## profchris (21 Jun 2019)

This ukulele back is finished in pure shellac, and I'm far from the world's best finisher so much shinier is achievable.

My process is to wet sand, then buff up with automotive rubbing compound.


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## sunnybob (21 Jun 2019)

By the same token, I was looking at Osmo polyx wax oil.
Is that also affected by my weather?


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## CHJ (21 Jun 2019)

I would expect hard wax oils to be stable, as they polymerize to form longer chains and should not break down once the reaction has taken place.

The Hard Wax Oil I use certainly stands up to the friction heat of Mop Burnishing to a high gloss once left to 'cure'.


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## memzey (27 Jun 2019)

Sorry just seen this. 
The recipe for the wax I gave to bob is one part carnauba, three parts bees wax and four parts turps. I’m not the most experienced in making this stuff but from the experiments I did, I found that much more carnauba than that makes it impossible to apply. I still have a block from the same batch and it’s great when used in Hertfordshire. Seems to me that the issue is with that blasted Cypriot heat!


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## woodbloke66 (27 Jun 2019)

sunnybob":1cf97lek said:


> By the same token, I was looking at Osmo polyx wax oil.
> Is that also affected by my weather?


I wouldn't have thought so as from my experience the heat doesn't appear to affect it, except to make it cure more quickly. I was applying the final brush coat (so reasonably thickish) to my bookcase this morning and it was bone dry when I got back to the workshop late in the afternoon. All it then needs is a final light de-nib with some 0000grade wire wool and a *very* thin smear of Alfie Shine over the top to finish off - Rob


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2019)

I use carnauba and/or microcrystalline with pure turps (only because I like the smell) and don't tend to use beeswax any more as it is soft. There doesn't appear to be any difference in use, only in the final polish. They do need higher percentage of turps than beeswax, though.
I got my m/c on ebay - the guy doesn't sell through ebay any more, but he (still, afaik) sells direct. If anyone fancies a go, PM and I'll give you his email address.


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## sunnybob (28 Jun 2019)

Woodbloke... fair enough heat doesnt affect your osmo wax, but I dont think wiltshire has ever had 6 months of 40c :shock: :shock: 

Where I live you have to re write the rule book, as that icicle loving memzey knows only too well. :roll: :roll: :roll: 
The In-car thermometer went to 47 yesterday. Even the plastic switches can burn your fingers at that temp, and whatever you do DONT touch the metal seat belt tang :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 8) 8) 
I love the heat, but dont envy those poor people in europe who have this at the moment, but no air con to enable them to sleep properly.


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## woodbloke66 (28 Jun 2019)

sunnybob":2z534exn said:


> Woodbloke... fair enough heat doesnt affect your osmo wax, but I dont think wiltshire has ever had 6 months of 40c :shock: :shock:
> 
> .... to enable them to sleep properly.


Just a trifling 28 degrees C here today which must get you reaching for the thermal underwear Sunnybob :lol: :lol: I don't sleep really well either as I had an adverse reaction to statins that gave me insomnia which, thankfully, seems to be passing - Rob


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## memzey (28 Jun 2019)

phil.p":39x9qz2o said:


> I use carnauba and/or microcrystalline with pure turps (only because I like the smell) and don't tend to use beeswax any more as it is soft. There doesn't appear to be any difference in use, only in the final polish. They do need higher percentage of turps than beeswax, though.
> I got my m/c on ebay - the guy doesn't sell through ebay any more, but he (still, afaik) sells direct. If anyone fancies a go, PM and I'll give you his email address.


I find this interesting and more than a little surprising. With my limited experimentation I would have concluded that the only way to get this to work with carnauba would be to flood it with the solvent (turps in this case) which then has its own issues as that solvent dries away on the piece. How did you manage to get a useable, pure carnauba wax polish Philip?


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Jun 2019)

I just melt the m/c or carnauba with the turps. It takes more turps and a longer heating than beeswax takes, but the end product is much the same.
... the only way to get this to work with carnauba would be to flood it with the solvent (turps in this case) which then has its own issues as that solvent dries away on the piece...
That's much the same whatever the wax, surely?


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## memzey (28 Jun 2019)

I guess so but I was cautious about using too much solvent in case the finish was compromised by it drying out and causing the wax to shrink after application. In uk temperatures this isn’t an issue as I get a really nice gloss finish without finger prints and the like but at the cost of being much harder to apply and buff. In the insane heat of Cyprus though I guess that recipe just doesn’t cut the mustard. I do have some m/c wax as well so perhaps my next attempt might be something along the lines of 50/50 that and the carnauba plus turps. Won’t be at all easy to apply here but bob might find a use for it!


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## sunnybob (28 Jun 2019)

Just a trifling 28 degrees C here today which must get you reaching for the thermal underwear Sunnybob :lol: :lol: I don't sleep really well either as I had an adverse reaction to statins that gave me insomnia which, thankfully, seems to be passing - Rob[/quote]

If the wind drops, we can get 28c in february  I wont get in the pool untill its 30 because i truly am what my name is. =D> =D> =D> At the moment the pool is 32, so I'm doing my aquarobics every day. =D> =D> 

Interesting to hear about the reaction to statins, I have a friend who's doctor is constantly trying to get her to take them, but she is resisting due to the stories about side effects.


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## woodbloke66 (28 Jun 2019)

sunnybob":12bliq56 said:


> Interesting to hear about the reaction to statins, I have a friend who's doctor is constantly trying to get her to take them, but she is resisting due to the stories about side effects.


Just to go off topic for a moment, I voluntarily put myself on a 3 month NHS healthy eating plan to lower cholesterol by diet rather than statins. The nurse took an armful of the red stuff  this morning for a test and I get the results next week. Please mention to your friend that she definitely doesn't want insomnia...four nights on the trot (on several occasions) without a wink of sleep is no fun. 
Profuse apologies for the slight hijack of this interesting thread - Rob


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Jun 2019)

I take the maximum dose of statins with no side effects at all (along with aspirin, allopurinol, metformin, dapagliflozin,lisinopril, gliclazide, meloxicam, linagliptin and levothyroxine).


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## sunnybob (28 Jun 2019)

At least two of them arent real words =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## memzey (8 Jul 2019)

Well bob Sera’s put her foot down and we are going to Cyprus again. My suggestion of Reykjavík garnered zero support. Let’s see if there is an alternative formulation we can come up with for me to bring you this year. I can try a batch of 50/50 carnauba and MC wax as mentioned above but instinct suggests that will be bloody hard to apply. I’m open to other recipes that might be Cyprus-proof!


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2019)

I've turps/ beeswax, turps/ m/c, turps/canauba, turps carnauba and m/c and there is no noticeable difference in their use. The harder wax takes longer and more turps, that's all. Maybe I make mine a lot thinner than you make yours.


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## CHJ (8 Jul 2019)

sunnybob":3ghj6p9b said:


> …….
> I have had major problems with it and after talking to memzey at length about procedures and times, and at his suggestion, I'm throwing this question open to all who use wax as a final coating.
> ….




Why don't you try applying Carnauba or Microcrystalline wax via a buffing wheel.

The wheel friction does the melting and deposits an evenly distributed wax coating.

The gloss level achievable is high with the minimum of personal physical effort.

Here's a link to a demonstration pamphlet (Formatted for double sided printing on A4) just read in page order if you can't print double sided.

If you don't have a lathe perhaps you can rig up a Mop Spindle using a spare motor and suitable support.


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## sunnybob (8 Jul 2019)

chas, dont have a lathe, buffing wheel or anything else in that line. The problem with my boxes is that they arent round,or even flat. I have to get wax into tight odd shaped corners, even square corners, where any kind of mop is very difficult to use. But we still come back to the question... Once that micro crystaline wax is applied, will it stay hard when the piece is kept at 36c for 6 months?

I've just had to adjust the thermostatic shower tap, the cold water in to the house is now 32c :shock: and the stat cant regulate the hot water low enough to give me anything less than 38c. Sometimes you just need a cold shower :shock: :shock: :lol: 

Memzey, good news that youre coming back. You know hot is good really, dont you? Think of all that vitamin D you'll be soaking up.
To be honest, dont load your case down with more wax, I'm convinced it wont work here. Remember that wood work shop in Girne? when I asked him what else he used apart from polyeurethane he gave me a blank look. Now I realise the locals know what works and what doesnt. 8) 8)


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## memzey (8 Jul 2019)

Ah the locals. Don’t you just love em? Why bother with investigating what else might work when there are kebabs to eat, coffees to drink and fags to smoke? I’m going to try another recipe, this time with MC instead of beeswax and a splash more turps to see if that helps. It would bug me something terrible if I didn’t give it a go.


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## sunnybob (8 Jul 2019)

If you consider poly is a relatively new product, what did the locals use before?
If what they used before was rubbish and they grabbed poly eagerly, then who am I to try to reinvent the wheel? (hammer) (hammer) :roll: .

My poly does work as long as I put it all in the fridge overnight and do it first thing before the temp gets too high, so I shall stick with that. But i think its my turn to buy the efes anyway. 8) 8)


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## memzey (8 Jul 2019)

Sounds good. We nearly took a place in Famagusta this year but in the end went for something in Girne again. 

Lots of old furniture in Cyprus seems to be finished with varnish of some sort or other but I question how much of it was actually made here. Anything from the past 100 years or so is as likely to come the UK as anywhere and locally made furniture before that may not of had any kind of finish at all. I’ll do some digging when I’m over to try and find out - this has piqued my interest!


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## sunnybob (8 Jul 2019)

as you know, I have struggled to find any finishing materials here. BLO, shellac, all get the blank stare and Cyprus shrug.

Only one large superstore in my area stocks the Liberon danish and finishing oil and black bison wax (which is always melted when I open the tin).
I only know of 1 Cypriot woodworking craftsman but he is in Limassol and I'm not due to go back there till winter, and his english is not good enough for a telephone inquiry (of course, my greek ends after "2 beers and a packet of crisps please"). 
:roll: :roll: 8) 8)


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## Trainee neophyte (8 Jul 2019)

I feel for you - I have the same problem here in sunny Greece: hardware shops are a strange and complicated experience, full of foreign products and peculiar customs. Nothing is on display,and you have to ask for the right thing, in the local vernacular. It's all very "Four candles, please".

For example - I bought some rope today. The nice man didn't ask me how long a length of rope I wanted - he asked me how many kilos of rope I wanted. I said two lengths of 15 metres; how much will it be? The answer " I don't know - how heavy is 15 metres?". And so it goes on. I once asked for half a kilo of finger-nails (Greek has a different word for finger-nail, as opposed to iron nail - who knew?). Same shop, I got confused with the word for screws, and asked for a box of goats instead. We don't go in to that shop any more - it's just easier that way.

I have used a polyurethane "varnish" that comes in two cans; one is the goop, and the other is a hardener, so it is some kind of of hard, clear epoxy. Comes as either satin or "shiny". The manufacturer name is "Vernilac". Of course, their website doesn't have any info on the product I'm talking about - just lots of paint. https://www.vernilac.gr

Will investigate further if required, as I am going into town tomorrow - I don't know if Greece and Cyprus have the same products - most of the stuff here is Durostick (https://www.durostick.gr/en).

I hope some of this has helped - how is your Greek? I am tolerably fluent, if you need any assistance. Only 37 degrees today -wooly pully weather ;-)


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## Trevanion (8 Jul 2019)

Ever thought about buying some shellac flakes whilst you're over here Bob or get someone to send them out for you? The flakes would last indefinitely instead of having the pre-made polish go off in the container as I would imagine it would in the Cypriot heat. All you would have to do is mix up some flakes with a bit of methylated spirit and you've got a very good, usable finish. It takes a lot of practice to get good at shellac finishing but the results are outstanding on even rudimentary pieces.

I've always said; A good finish will make a bad piece look good, a bad finish will make a good piece look bad, a good finish will make a good piece into art.


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## sunnybob (9 Jul 2019)

I have (at Memzey's insistence) just tried shellac and am very impressed with it.
Of course I had to order it from the UK and it took 4 shop assistants blank looks before I found a girl who had "heard" of meths (this in the DULUX paint shop). She had to make phone calls and order 2 litres minimum from the main distributor 60 miles away. 
But the good news is that the shellac doesnt dry out! Mixed in a sealed jam jar and I used every last drop over a month with no wastage.

My Greek is non existant, but not due to lack of trying. I worked here for 6 years for a Cypriot company, and everyone spoke english to me because it was easier than them trying to teach me Greek. We went to government night school, and the class folded because there was a room full of English old people, trying to learn conversation greek, from a Higher education examination book. By happenstance, even the greeks who live nearby are all refugees or children of refugees from the 70's who went to England and most of them have higher English qualifications than I do. 
You do realise that Greek, and Cypriot are two languages dont you? Many times when I was working with the locals I would ask my assistant what someone had said and the reply would be "I dont understand him, he's a greek silly person" :roll: 

In normal day to day life here there is no language barrier. English is the second language and you need to go to small villages or very poor areas to NOT find someone who speaks English. Even the road signs are in both languages and we drive on the correct side of the road too.

I did pick up the numbers though, I can count all the way up to 1,000 but the word for that seems to be different every time I ask someone to pronounce it slowly.
Never heard of those two makes, there is a big paint company on island called Pelletico and thats whats in most shops.
We're running at 32-38c this month, but humidity is much higher than normal making any job indoors unpleasant.

But with all this seeming moaning about certain products, I'm still here for the long haul 8) 8) , only major illness would make me return to the UK, and even that worry is receeding as Cyprus is just implementing a UK style NHS. =D> =D>


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## Trainee neophyte (9 Jul 2019)

Greece and Cyprus have an interesting not-quite-joined-up history - the assumption over here is that Cyprus is completely Greek, but there was an administrative error with the paperwork. 

I have never been to Cyprus, so I don't know how Greek it is in terms of products available and who sells what, and where. However, if by "meths" you mean methylated spirits, you should be able to buy that in a chemist. They do cheap "alcohol", which is blue meths, and an expensive clear, 99% version, which is probably ethyl alcohol as opposed to methyl alcohol (and won't make you go blind if you drink it). At least, that is in my local pharmakio, anyway. It also has one of the more unpronounceable names: oinopnevma. As in oinos (pronounced eenoss=wine) and pnevma =spirit. They also do a mineral oil (white oil - lefko ladthi), which can be used as a finish, or drink it to clear out your pipes, if you prefer )

I have no option but to speak Greek - we live in the Greek equivalent of Bodmin moor, and no one here speaks English. Getting intelligible Greek is tricky enough. 20 years on, and it's still a bloody silly language. I lived in Spain for 3 months, and by the end of it I was able to converse reasonably well, if only in a basic way, but Greek? How many 8 syllable words do you need? I sometimes get the feeling they are doing it on purpose - being willfully difficult, just because they can. There are two different ways to pronounce the number seven, and I once asked someone why they used both variants in the same sentence. The answer? "Because I can". 
God bless their little cotton socks.

Final thought - there is a YouTube chappie from Zakinthos who does a lot of turning - some of his videos are in English, or have English subtitles - he is very keen to tell you what he uses, which might help regarding finishes: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sGGx5cL5NGA


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## memzey (9 Jul 2019)

Trevanion":11ar7mi5 said:


> Ever thought about buying some shellac flakes whilst you're over here Bob or get someone to send them out for you? The flakes would last indefinitely instead of having the pre-made polish go off in the container as I would imagine it would in the Cypriot heat. All you would have to do is mix up some flakes with a bit of methylated spirit and you've got a very good, usable finish.


That sounds like a smashing idea bob. Why didn’t anyone suggest that to you years ago?


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## sunnybob (9 Jul 2019)

Leaning against an open door here. =D> 
I lost the will to live when I discovered they have FIVE different ways of spelling E. :roll: :roll: 
Some of them involving two separate letters that are NOT E! :shock:
And to spell the most basic word in the English language (BEER) you have to write MPIRA. :roll: :roll: 

I can read capitals and most lower case. I can read shop and road signs and understand them, and even make a very bad job of reading adverts, but I have no idea what I'm saying.
I worked with an English man (from London) who came here with his first wife (Cypriot), got divorced, married another Cypriot and lived with her family. He understands all Greek (Cypriot) no matter how fast they talk but will never speak it, because no matter how he pronounces any word, he is told he said it wrong and then has to be told the correct way (again).
I will check out that greek turner, thanks


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## sunnybob (9 Jul 2019)

memzey":e1zx28ht said:


> Trevanion":e1zx28ht said:
> 
> 
> > Ever thought about buying some shellac flakes whilst you're over here Bob or get someone to send them out for you? The flakes would last indefinitely instead of having the pre-made polish go off in the container as I would imagine it would in the Cypriot heat. All you would have to do is mix up some flakes with a bit of methylated spirit and you've got a very good, usable finish.
> ...



Alright, dont go on, I suppose I'll have to buy you TWO beers now (hammer) (hammer) (hammer)


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## memzey (9 Jul 2019)




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## CHJ (9 Jul 2019)

sunnybob":ul0rl6yq said:


> …..
> I lost the will to live when I discovered they have FIVE different ways of spelling E. :roll: :roll:
> Some of them involving two separate letters that are NOT E! :shock:
> …..



Seems a good enough explanation for the regular saying used by my immediate peers, "It's all Greek to me!!"


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## sunnybob (9 Jul 2019)

Just for clarity's sake. one of those five E's (actually the true english E) is pronounced EH.

There, explains everything dont it? :roll:


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