# Reynolds Hand Morticer c 1875



## condeesteso (29 May 2012)

The question is to restore or not, or partially. Technically it is very good and had been in regular use until recently. It came from the Chevening Estate nearby and was apparently used for barn repairs and fencing. And it really does work.









The main shaft runs in bronze bearings with no apparent play and rotates 180 degrees to turn the chisel












The chisel is traditional mortice form and is angled slightly into the cut, then it deflects slightly as it enters (and I haven't worked out how yet as the shaft does not flex at all and the bit seems to have a Morse-type taper on it.




I have found someone with about 8 more chisels, and it needs a clean at least. I don't fancy making it shiny, and I'm too busy anyway. Thoughts on sympathetic 'restoration' welcome. Apparently there is one more known survivor in a museum near here. May need to go and see that, but I like this faded paint etc.

and many thanks to AndyT for the tip off, as it was only 3 miles from me - a find indeed!


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## jimi43 (29 May 2012)

So it was YOU who bought all the CORRO DIP!!! :mrgreen: 

Personally...I would do a full restore....but technically correct so that should present an amusing research problem! Since it's all the Professor's fault anyway...surely he will help! 8) 

Why not wait unil you see the other one at the Museum of Kent Life and go from there. 

I would certainly get the other chisels and if you are missing any, it shouldn't present a problem with the blacksmith skills we have here to create replacements from a sample.

It certainly cuts some lovely clean mortices...I bet you're made up!. Didn't buy any tractors while you were there did you? :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## Racers (29 May 2012)

Hi, Condo

Thats a beast! :shock: 

I would go for a full restoration, any thing else would keep you awake at night.

Pete


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## marcros (29 May 2012)

how does it work, is it a combination of leverage and brute force, or is it somehow ratcheted?


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## AndyT (29 May 2012)

I'm so glad you got it and will give it a good home!

Somewhere there has to be a good middle way between making it look brand new and leaving it looking neglected. I think if it was mine I would want it to look as if it had been stored indoors, and in continuous use. The paint would have worn away, but there would be no rust; metal surfaces would be burnished by hard use or an oily rag. 

Maybe that's all it needs - a good hard rub with a very oily rag. Possibly something like Zebrite grate polish (I used some on a lightly rusted plane in this thread.)

The page on Grace's guide leads to images of its relatives: this one is in Dover and looks good to me - some realistic dirt still on it:






Edit: I just found this nice advertorial from the Sydney Morning Herald in 1880: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page1429039 - which I think covered machine tools more thoroughly than _any_ of our present day newspapers!


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## dickm (29 May 2012)

That's a wonderful beast. 
Out of interest, what is the stand made of? It looks as if it's cast iron, but I'd have thought there would be a danger of that cracking under the repeated bashing of the chisel? Especially given that lovely splaying out of the ends of the legs; must be one heck of a lot of stress on them.


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## condeesteso (29 May 2012)

Ah yes forgot the Reynolds brochure of 1876, listing it at £12. I note the one in Dover is grey, this one is a very dull 'drab-crab' red. But mine could easily come up like that one. I think I'll start with the beds, slides, wheels and all controls. Then consider the cosmetics. Yes for Zebrite - I did a 52 1/2 vice with it - looks very good indeed on castings I think.
Does that rag have to be oily? - I don't really like oil, or getting dirty.
And Marcros - no it's just leverage but given the blade tip is (on at the moment) half-inch, and it is reasonably sharp - it cuts deep with ease... but does not clear chips, which become compacted in the mortice. I suppose through-mortices may be better, but that oak there is 6".
Re the base, cast definitely. Due to the lever action it slices rather than impacts and you can progress the cut quite smoothly. If I sharpen the bit a little it looks like it will slice cleanly - the first attempt was not bad I thought, esp for more structural work. I may be getting this to do some proper work even!. I think it can be quite fast and I just need an implement to clear chippings.


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## Richard T (29 May 2012)

If it t'were mine Douglas, (and I wish it was :mrgreen: )mineral oil it would be. Old oil is best - it sticks better but maybe for something that you are likely to get close to, clean new oil. I would brush it on lightly especially in to the relief lettering and take off excess with a rag. 
I know it sounds messy and wrong but if you just try a small area I bet you get hooked on the shine and the general healthy look. A little really does go a long way. This is how generations looked after their cast iron kit ... machinery, steam engines etc. 

If you get in trouble you can blame me. :shock:


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## Tony Spear (30 May 2012)

condeesteso":ju80lf8b said:


> this one is a very dull 'drab-crab' red.



You might want to be a bit careful with that finish.

From the colour it sounds as though somebody might have given it a coat of lead primer at some time.


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## DTR (30 May 2012)

That is an impressive chunk of iron Douglas


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## jimi43 (30 May 2012)

I'd definitely have the XY table apart and clean that up...

Boy...can I come over tomorrow (today) and have a butchers?

Also...given the other examples....is it possible that the red is a later refurb?

Cheers

Jim


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## GazPal (30 May 2012)

We used to have one in our old workshop when I was an apprentice and swan necked mortising chisels tend to work nicely regarding chip clearance when using these mortising machines :wink:


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## condeesteso (30 May 2012)

Gary - I'm trying to imagine how a swan-neck worked as the blade moves vertically down into the stock - although this blade does deflect very slightly as it cuts (due to the bevel).
I need to release the 3 large nuts on l/h side to lower the lever mechanism and get the bit closer down to the work. There is a crank at the top to do that.
There aren't that many components here, so I may strip the beds, slides etc and get cleaning. Old oil Richard - i'll give it a go, promise.
Re the red there is no evidence (yet) that it is a later coat, nothing under certainly although it could have been stripped - the dull red does look quite period.
And I need to contact the guy with 12 bits that appear to fit it. I do think this has potential to be genuinely useful.
Oh yes, and the man I got it from said 'about 60Kg'. And the rest, I'm thinking.


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## GazPal (30 May 2012)

The swan neck chisel / hook is simply used intermittently to clear the mortise as you progress and comes into play if waste becomes problematical (Bungs the hole), but another option is to bore a clearance hole prior to commencing the cut and have the waste fall into the void to cleared on completion. The major downside to these mortisers is the lack of waste clearance typically afforded by the auger found in modern mortising machine bits, but it certainly doesn't detract from their utility within any workshop.

If mortising for frames ALWAYS leave horns (Additional material) to be removed at a later point. This helps avoid blowing the end of the mortise.

The workshop in which I apprenticed had a large collection of belt driven Briggs & Stratton machinery, including such mortisers (As well as the model you have) and on through jointer/thicknessers, drill press, band and bench saws. It was akin to working in a museum, but was a fabulous - although very noisey - education in the use of centrally belt driven machinery dating from circa 1875 and onwards.


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## AndyT (30 May 2012)

condeesteso":2me2xsrg said:


> Ah yes forgot the Reynolds brochure of 1876, listing it at £12.



Just in case anyone was looking for this, and had forgotten about the Old Wood Working Machinery site, this page: http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=2696&tab=3 has links to several catalogues showing the Monarch at that price.

What's embarrassing me is that having given Douglas a push to buy it, I realise from the Sydney Morning Herald that it's actually the most basic model of the range! I hope this won't prompt a rash of old morticer envy and one-upmanship!


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## Jacob (30 May 2012)

After a bit of a clean I'd brush the whole thing everywhere with half n half raw linseed oil and turps. It'd revive the paint, such as it is, and stop rust. Then working bits would slowly get polished up with use.


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## kirkpoore1 (30 May 2012)

Jacob":t0y7eli5 said:


> After a bit of a clean I'd brush the whole thing everywhere with half n half raw linseed oil and turps. It's revive the paint, such as it is, and stop rust. Then working bits would slowly get polished up with use.




That'll work. Linseed oil was used as a machine coating, even on bare castings. The red paint may be original, too. A careful cleaning with soap and water will show traces of any other paint. Very cool machine in excellent condition.

19th century machinery had a great variety of paint, anything from none at all to elaborate pinstriping and even murals. At least on American machines, black was most common, but red and green were frequently used, raised lettering painted, and lots of gold paint used for scrollwork. 

Here's a large bandsaw, circa 1874, in original paint--brown with red & gold highlights and red wheels:










Kirk


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## AndyT (30 May 2012)

That's a handsome machine, Kirk, and no mistake, but at first glance I imagined some inattentive draughtsman sitting down at what he thought was his drawing board, getting a nasty shock!

It certainly shows how worthwhile it is to save these historic artefacts from the scrap yard.


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## gounthar (30 May 2012)

Very nice piece of machinery, well done!


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## jimi43 (30 May 2012)

I went to see Douglas' morticer this afternoon and it is a really wonderful machine...as is that bandsaw!!

The paint looks like red lead to me...probably either an original protection coating or a later addition...

It really works well and the mechanics are in tip top condition.

I wouldn't mind one of those on my patio...excellent conversation piece!

One mystery at the moment is that the chisel seems to be drifted into a taper socket and we were pondering how to get it out. I thought at first there might be a lever that you turned that pushed it out but it's not obvious. Mind you Douglas...why not use the taper drift you got with the ML7...that should sort it!

Cheers

Jim


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## condeesteso (30 May 2012)

what ML7?
I will test the linseed turps on an area. It's going to take time anyway, I have to give it low priority re other things I need to get done, but it is covered and lubricated so safe for now.
re chip clearance I imagine blind mortices likely to be tricky then. The other 12 chisel-bits I found available are all straight too.
If I ever became convinced what the original colour really was it may one day get a re-paint, but I wouldn't want it 'shiny'.


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## Racers (30 May 2012)

Hi, Condo

Check under bolt heads/covers for the orignal paint.

Pete


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## AndyT (30 May 2012)

condeesteso":2tyncy9j said:


> what ML7?




I think we have just seen a drive-by gloat by proxy!!

If you are too busy with two new toys at once, let Jim take some photos of it while it's still sunny and start a new thread for it!


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## condeesteso (31 May 2012)

Pete - the under the bolts is a good idea. I see I am going to have to spend time on this morticer sooner than planned.
O.K., I own up, a few days before, I got a 1953 Myford ML7, with an array of tools and accessories, many of which point to very precise work having been done on it, by a real toolmaker type.

I may be mentioning the ML7 later, but once it is properly installed the components for the long-awaited large (600mm) frame / bow saw are high on the need list.
On the morticer I am chasing the other 12 chisel-bits for it so will hopefully get those, and add versatility to what is already a really effective tool.


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## bugbear (31 May 2012)

Racers":66hlusqf said:


> Hi, Condo
> 
> Check under bolt heads/covers for the orignal paint.
> 
> Pete



Yes - Restorers often find area of original paint during disassembly - they look out for it.

BugBear


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## marcros (2 Jun 2012)

Douglas, your review was enough to persuade me...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 500wt_1277


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## jimi43 (2 Jun 2012)

marcros":363w6ytp said:


> Douglas, your review was enough to persuade me...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 500wt_1277



Good LORD Mark...fifteen squids! A bargain!

The X-Y table on these things is superb..no backlash nor play at all in Douglas' one after over 100 years! Amazing bargain

WIP for the restoration please!!!

Jim


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## condeesteso (5 Jun 2012)

excellent find Mark, with chisels (plural) too. I'm still trying to contact the man down here with a spare dozen for mine. Not had time to do anything with it yet, what with going to see the Queen and making vices and all.
Pics when I start cleaning it up.


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## marcros (11 Jun 2012)

Douglas,

Any ideas what your morticer might weigh?

Mark


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## custard (11 Jun 2012)

Condeesteso, what a magnificant machine. Good for you for rescuing it. Keep us posted on progress!


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## condeesteso (11 Jun 2012)

Hi Custard - yes indeed, it's in excellent shape technically. As discussed I may 'restore' it a bit some time, but just managed to track down the man with a dozen chisel bits for it, £20 plus postage, done! And the definitely came off a Reynolds as he still has the arm (for some reason unknown) and it is marked the same. I'm sure I can get this working well now.
re weight Marcros - sorry being so slow responding - my guess is 100Kg... or four bags o' taters.


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## condeesteso (17 Jun 2012)

Here's an interesting one, belt drive. I found this on display in Saltaire Mill, surrounded by the work of David Hockney. It's a chain and chisel morticer.









Apart from the belt drive and being heftier in all respects, it is very similar to the hand morticers here - xy bed etc.
It is fitted with a square chisel with boring bit down centre. As far as I could tell the left lever controls the cut, the right is presumably the clutch (could be the other and more logical way round though)... I didn't have long to examine it!




Nice to see it was made about 7 miles away, and was very likely used in the mill - one of the biggest woollen mills in the area, just down the road from Bronte's Hawarth, and all powered by the River Aire.


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## Benchwayze (17 Jun 2012)

Tony Spear":18cwm6xs said:


> condeesteso":18cwm6xs said:
> 
> 
> > this one is a very dull 'drab-crab' red.
> ...



In my youth, Zebrite was called 'Black-Lead'... Not without reason either! 8)


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## AndyT (17 Jun 2012)

Interesting post Douglas - are you thinking of expanding your collection? :wink:


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## marcros (25 Jun 2012)

Douglas

Think you got a good deal, considering this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Woodworking-M ... 500wt_1043 

Mark


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## marcros (26 Jun 2012)

Douglas,

I have had a play with my 1910 model tonight. Seems a good bit of kit. I can only use one chisel on mine, because I have no idea how to remove the thing. Any ideas- all look like they have been struck on the corners below the taper before. I only had a quick go on a lump of softwood- made a reasonable job, although those fluted chisels that you have may be tidier. If I had marked out the mortice first it would have been a better trial. Chip clearance, like you identified is a slight issue. 

Also, the chisels have been ground so that rather than triangular in cross section like a pig sticker from the side, they look more like a finger- is this what is meant by a rounded bevel. The bevel is curved like the finger tip Is either more correct than the other?

Mark


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## Cheshirechappie (26 Jun 2012)

To remove the chisel, there may be a trick adaptable from the method used to remove the taper spindle from drill chucks. 

You'll need two steel wedges, with a slot filed in each so that they look like two-pronged forks. The legs of the fork fit neatly over the root of the chisel's taper where it seats in the machine's socket - exact dimensions to suit the job, of course. Mild steel should do fine, but if you happen to have some ground flat stock or similar, even better. File the faces of the two wedges to a very slow taper. Then insert one from either side of the chisel, and tap them together to remove the chisel from the socket. Won't take much if the taper on the wedges is nice and slow, though if the chisel has been in the socket for a while, breaking the seat might take a thwack or two.


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## kirkpoore1 (27 Jun 2012)

Cheshirechappie":2bvyh7xg said:


> To remove the chisel, there may be a trick adaptable from the method used to remove the taper spindle from drill chucks.
> 
> You'll need two steel wedges, with a slot filed in each so that they look like two-pronged forks. ...



They look like this:





The problem is finding the correct size if you plan to buy them (and, really, they're pretty cheap). The "legs" are quite narrow, so the slot must be close to the chisel or it won't work. An alternative that I've seen mentioned on OWWM is to clamp onto the chisel near the top with a pair of visegrips, and then hit sideways with a hammer to twist the chisel. All you need is to get it moving in some direction, and it will be most of the battle. 

Kirk


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## marcros (27 Jun 2012)

Ah great.

I have a bit of gauge plate so could probably make a pair quite easily. Chat are they actually called if I was to search for some? I dont have any vice grips- theya re also on the long list of tools that I could do with getting- perhaps they will be promoted to the top!

It shouldnt be stuck too fast in there- I only put it in last night and chopped into some 4x2 softwood a few times. I just didnt want to go hitting everything with hammers which would either make things worse, or risk damaging them..


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## Cheshirechappie (27 Jun 2012)

www.arceurotrade.co.uk stock them, calling them 'chuck removal wedges'. They do four sizes, 12mm, 15.5mm, 19.2mm and 21.9mm between forks, at £4.85 a pair plus the dreaded p&p. I didn't see vice grips in the catalogue, but they do have a selction of diamond tooling at reasonable prices, including 0.5 micron lapping paste at £3.68 a tube.

Other possible sources would be the big engineer's merchants such as Cromwell Tools, J&L Industrial and so on, but they may be pricier.


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## condeesteso (27 Jun 2012)

Mark - I quite like yours... but it's the 'transition' version. Good for fifteen quid mind. Mine's nicer.
In my haul of chisels I found one marked Cannon St EC... need to get a pic to share.
And you have how many chisels, Mark... four, was it? And made by...?


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## marcros (27 Jun 2012)

"Transition" version! I rather like to think of them having ironed out all of the issues on yours and learned to manufacture mine more efficiently!!! I was going to give it a coat of paint, but it is so heavy I am put off slightly, I just cant fancy disassembling it. Maybe a winter project.

i have 4 chisels roughly 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" and I think it was 3/4" (may be 5/8"). No names that I could see. Usable condition though- the 1/4" I just gave a quick rub on a fine stone and it cut. I have bought a bilt hamber corrosion remover to use on them amongst other things. http://www.bilthamber.com/deox-c I think that they have forgotten to update the shipping cost- 1kg was only £2.95 to post. I will clean them up, grind and sharpen them properly and give them a workout.

I was beginning to think that the chisel taper was reasonably standard, but there is one for sale on ebay at the moment with 7 chisels- 4 that fit and 3 that don't. I will measure mine when I get back out in the workshop later in the week. There must have been an awful lot of chisels made over time if ward et al made aftermarket ones- i have spoken to a few people that remember the machines, but they don't seem to come up often for sale. I have the common sizes that I might use- I wouldnt mind a wider one, but am interested to hear how you get on with the fluted ones before I go chasing them. 

I agree that yours is nicer. What I cant understand is why manufacturers put no branding on their machines into the casting- yours you know who made it and when- mine they have gone to the effort of putting 1910 on to it, but other than "patent" I cant see any other marking cast on it at all.

My father asked me a question- when you pull the handle, what stops the bevel of the chisel from moving the wood along the x axis on its lead screw. I couldn't answer- obviously a sharp edge reduces it, but if the bevel is against uncut timber, it can actually move it slightly. Have you seen this happen on yours?

What size chisels have you got now?

They take up a fair bit of room these machines dont they....!


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## Thomas Hayman (27 Jun 2012)

condeesteso":3k76p1fd said:


> Nice to see it was made about 7 miles away, and was very likely used in the mill - one of the biggest woollen mills in the area, just down the road from Bronte's Hawarth, and all powered by the River Aire.



A small correction but worth pointing out that Salts was driven by 4 beam engines powered by 14 boilers... :-D


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## No skills (27 Jun 2012)

As a couple of members here will confirm I have spent far too much time on ebay tonight :shock: at the risk of upsetting anybody watching them there is another hand morticer listed at the moment and some chisels in another listing. Better the machine goes to a woodworker than the scrappy.


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## condeesteso (28 Jun 2012)

Mark - the 'transition' is just a wind-up as you know.
Yes, I have a 1" in at the moment and it can force the bed sideways... but my 'technique' (a bit bold calling it that) is left hand on traverse wheel, right pulling down on lever. So a cut, a shift, a cut etc. I have found that progressive cuts along the mortice, close together seems to work, then reverse the blade and go back the other way. And a poker device to remove the chips every so often. Although if I was doing through-mortices I may bore a clearance through the middle first. Haven't got to that yet.


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## marcros (28 Jun 2012)

I used the same hands on the same components. do you mark out both sides with a knife first? I only used the nastiest softwood but the finish on the far side wasn't very good because it split along the grain. that was 2" thick, done with a full depth cut- far from good practice and the chisel could have been sharper. I may try drilling a hole or two first and see how that works. It was quick though- far quicker than setting up even a handheld router and fence. the only other downside that I have found is when you get a chisel jammed in the wood, it lifts the block from the vice. I think a thicker block underneath would solve it so that it grips in a stronger place in the vice.


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## finntheshark (2 Oct 2014)

Hello,

I have a reynold Morticer in the garage. By accident.. I moved into a property and the previous owner left a lot of junks that I had to clear out. The only thing I could not move is the morticer. At first I was pretty cheesed off not knowing what it is. I had to search photos using goggle images. Finally found a photo that match to mine. Ahh a morticer !

I am attempting to make some few shutters. My question is.. am I meant to pull the handle down to "slice" a hole like a butter or bounce the handle up and down to "hammer" a hole?

I have a few chisels.. I wonder where would I find some more? or know anyone who can make some?

Thanks
Finn


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## wizard (2 Oct 2014)

Drill a hole to start off then slice a small bit at a time


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## marcros (2 Oct 2014)

finntheshark":2mhhaj0g said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a reynold Morticer in the garage. By accident.. I moved into a property and the previous owner left a lot of junks that I had to clear out. The only thing I could not move is the morticer. At first I was pretty cheesed off not knowing what it is. I had to search photos using goggle images. Finally found a photo that match to mine. Ahh a morticer !
> 
> ...



ebay. search for solid mortice chisels.


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## swb58 (2 Oct 2014)

I've got a 1/4" chisel that looks like it would fit in the OP machine, if it's of interest to anyone.


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## condeesteso (9 Nov 2014)

thanks swb, I have a fairly full set already. Sorry been away from the forum for a while but catching up.
I have found the best way to use this is the slicing method above. I've heard these called 'thumpers' but that doesn't work at all well for me. And the usual - well sharpened edge.
I am seriously considering passing mine on to a new home - only because I need the space and don't really use it. I'll have a think and post here soon (for sale I mean all official-like).


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## Jacob (10 Nov 2014)

finntheshark":2hmkdsed said:


> ....
> 
> I am attempting to make some few shutters. My question is.. am I meant to pull the handle down to "slice" a hole like a butter or bounce the handle up and down to "hammer" a hole?...


I'd guess it'd be just the same as using a hand held mortice chisel - first cut a slice as far as you can go easily, perhaps only a few mm, second cut a slice down the face of the first cut, and so on. So each cut removes more wood than the previous one. Work your way along to the end and then turn it round to work back to the other end. Does the chisel turn or do you have to turn the workpiece?


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## marcros (10 Nov 2014)

if it is the same as my similar looking one, the chisel turns.


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## swb58 (10 Nov 2014)

The one that I've got is sharpened more acutely than the one in the OP, I'd imagine that would have a bearing on on it's capabilities and how it's used. Don't know if it's the correct angle for that type of chisel though.


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## condeesteso (11 Nov 2014)

Yes, the whole quill assembly rotates 180 degrees to reverse the cut (pic 3 in first post). Jacob's method is the one that works - surprising how quickly you get down to depth, no banging the cutter down at all.
The chisel shown is the only odd one in the 'set' I got - it has shoulders each side then a far lower angle centre cutter. I don't know why it has those shoulders. The rest I have are final approx 30 degrees which is about right for a mortice chisel.


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2014)

Hand or machine - you don't need to bother about the chippings until you have finished the whole mortice. You just cut through them - they get pushed sideways and some fly out as you work. When the mortice is completely finished a lot of the chippings will drop out easily and those that don't can be loosened with a small chisel. Or if it's through you can drift them out of the far side.


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