# The James Krenov Smoother – under review



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (27 Jul 2007)

Here is a link to my most recent article. It brings together a few items I recently posted.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/KrenovPlane/krenovPlane1.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Philly (27 Jul 2007)

Excellent review, Derek!
I'm very pleased with mine - it always surprises with it's performance. And people just love to pick it up - there's so much to "find"  
Cheers
Philly


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## Denis (27 Jul 2007)

A thoughtful review, Derek - like you said, it's good to put things into perspective every now and then....

I remember some responses to Philly's review of his new Krenov plane - some folks seemed to have confused form and function 

Regards,

Denis


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## Anonymous (27 Jul 2007)

Yeah, I used Phily's krenov last weekend and it is just outstanding in its use and form (fits like a glove) - just looks poorly finished.


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## ByronBlack (27 Jul 2007)

Like his books, through these planes and the people that use them, Mr Krenov's spirit and enthusiasm really shines through. If anyone wonders what all the fuss is about - please take the time to read his books, to get the full effect, take a deck chair, go and sit outside with a cool glass of beer and be inspired by his unique outlook - it certainly worked for me and my work/idea's have benefited ever since. 

Good review Derek - very respectful and a nice tribute with the table, lovely design!


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## Johnboy (28 Jul 2007)

Great review Derek, thank you.

John

ps. the table is good too.


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## woodbloke (28 Jul 2007)

The one I have is also typical of JK's style of smoother tho' the wedge is made from a different timber. I haven't yet used mine as it still has a lot of Jim's marking out details on the sides and even better has been _signed_ at the front so any use will damage these marks  so it takes pride of place on the 'Tool Wall' - Rob


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## Sgian Dubh (28 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":1jiu6vbk said:


> Mr Krenov's spirit and enthusiasm really shines through. If anyone wonders what all the fuss is about - please take the time to read his books, to get the full effect....



Unfortunately Byron, I find Mr. Krenov's writings come across as directionless twittering. Reading a whole page of any any of his books gives me the urge to slam it shut and throw it away as far as possible, preferably into a fire.

I have no idea why the man who seems to inspire so many others simply irritates the pants off me. Perhaps it's because I started my career before he became popular, and before the 'revolution' in American woodworking, particularly American amateur woodworking, that occurred in the later 1970's.

I recall that we used to simply dismiss American craft woodworking of the early 1970's as the triumph of wood over all other considerations of design, taste, function and joinery skills, ie, lumpy tree root stuff slathered over with epoxy resin and, therefore, laughable junk, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## woodbloke (28 Jul 2007)

Sgain Dubh wrote:


> I recall that we used to simply dismiss American craft woodworking of the early 1970's as the triumph of wood over all other considerations of design, taste, function and joinery skills, ie, lumpy tree root stuff slathered over with epoxy resin and, therefore, laughable junk


I agree with this viewpoint, a lot of the 'murrican stuff from this era was truly ghastly, however I do like the way that JK writes. The main point is tho' that when the early books were written he had not yet moved to the States and was living and working in Sweden, so they reflect a European viewpoint. The books really are his own individual 'take' on woodwork and cabinet making as well containing a lot of very useful practical stuff...only my view  - Rob


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## ByronBlack (28 Jul 2007)

Sgian Dubh":17f6iqgu said:


> ByronBlack":17f6iqgu said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Krenov's spirit and enthusiasm really shines through. If anyone wonders what all the fuss is about - please take the time to read his books, to get the full effect....
> ...



I approached the book not as a writing on woodworking or a 'how to' but rather a theory, an outlook and just an interesting read into a man with conviction and love for his craft - which you don't see very often in print (in an amateur way). Quite often, authors of woodoworking books/articles are very dry and technical and don't pay much regard to the actual material - I know this isn't always the case though, just a fair amount of stuff that i've read.

I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph as Krenov is partly famous for those very things that you have dismissed: design, function, skills etc.. maybe i'm missing your point, if thats the case I apologise.


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## Sgian Dubh (28 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":33eyw6s3 said:


> I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph as Krenov is partly famous for those very things that you have dismissed: design, function, skills etc.. maybe i'm missing your point, if thats the case I apologise.



Byron, if you read again what I said in the previous paragraph, it'll make sense. Krenov didn't become well known until later in the 1970's. Slainte.


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## AHoman (28 Jul 2007)

Sgian Dubh":1l7eemd4 said:


> I recall that we used to simply dismiss American craft woodworking of the early 1970's as the triumph of wood over all other considerations of design, taste, function and joinery skills, ie, lumpy tree root stuff slathered over with epoxy resin and, therefore, laughable junk, ha, ha. Slainte.



Richard,
I'm trying to picture this stuff that you are describing, but since I was born in the early 70s, I don't have memories of it -- does it live on today as "rustic" furniture? (I've seen some of that -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.) 

And I hope that you are not refering to Nakashima.

In the early 70s, the Shaker revival was picking up into full swing here.

Perhaps the epoxy-covered stuff was in Texas???
-Andy


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## Sgian Dubh (29 Jul 2007)

AHoman":14rrb1hq said:


> I'm trying to picture this stuff that you are describing, but since I was born in the early 70s, I don't have memories of it -- does it live on today as "rustic" furniture? (I've seen some of that -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.)
> 
> And I hope that you are not refering to Nakashima.
> 
> Andy



Yes Andy some of that rustic furniture popular in the south of and mid west of the US is probably the spawn of the 500 lb gorilla like clunky tree stump and 6" thick slab table top stuff made as coffee tables. The contemporary equivalent of those early 70's horrors are probably the ranges of beds, chairs and tables made largely out of cow horns and antlers-- might be okay in a rarely visited log cabin, ha, ha.

Sadly, for me, Nakashima's work also treads dangerously close to the description 'a triumph of wood over all other considerations' or that 'it doesn't matter what it looks like, but the wood is good' philosophy. Slainte.


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## ByronBlack (29 Jul 2007)

Sgian Dubh":1f9p17eo said:


> AHoman":1f9p17eo said:
> 
> 
> > I'm trying to picture this stuff that you are describing, but since I was born in the early 70s, I don't have memories of it -- does it live on today as "rustic" furniture? (I've seen some of that -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.)
> ...



You mean something like this?


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## Anonymous (29 Jul 2007)

woodbloke":8oksu3vt said:


> . I haven't yet used mine as it still has a lot of Jim's marking out details on the sides and even better has been _signed_ at the front so any use will damage these marks  so it takes pride of place on the 'Tool Wall' - Rob



it's a tool, not an ornament!


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## Sgian Dubh (29 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":gfliyhey said:


> You mean something like this?



That's the sort of stuff Byron. Compared to the huge log clunkers I'm refering to from the early American 70's Nakashima's stuff is almost, well, er, dainty. The top is only about 2" or 3" thick for a start, and there's even an underframe made of machined and joined square'ish bits instead of a tree stump. Slainte.


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## woodbloke (29 Jul 2007)

Tony":2kkqnpeo said:


> woodbloke":2kkqnpeo said:
> 
> 
> > . I haven't yet used mine as it still has a lot of Jim's marking out details on the sides and even better has been _signed_ at the front so any use will damage these marks  so it takes pride of place on the 'Tool Wall' - Rob
> ...


.....and to take a purely mercenary viewpoint, will increase _hugely_ in value as the years roll one if the original provenance isn't destroyed by my mucky fingers, or anyone else's for that matter - Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Jul 2007)

> .....and to take a purely mercenary viewpoint, will increase hugely in value as the years roll one if the original provenance isn't destroyed by my mucky fingers, or anyone else's for that matter



Rob

What if the mucky fingers were JK's?

I am sorry you feel this way about JK's smoother. I am pretty sure that he would also feel so. 

For myself, the value lies in its present symbolism and not in its future as a collector item. At the same time I am mindful of the latter but I consider that careful use and maintenance will not harm this area. Like a good violin, some instruments cannot be left on the shelf.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbloke (29 Jul 2007)

Derek - true enough, JK's plane _will_ be used on certain projects that I have in mind, but very carefully and selectively :wink: Some of the original marking out lines have been left on the plane and not removed....these I want to keep as well as his signature on the front which could well be obscured by careless handling - Rob


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## bugbear (30 Jul 2007)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Here is a link to my most recent article. It brings together a few items I recently posted.
> 
> http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/KrenovPlane/krenovPlane1.asp
> 
> ...



Krenov may have popularised and been responsible for laminated planes in the 1980's, but the concept is widely referred to in 1920-1930 books as an easier way to make a plane for home woodworkers.

The toe and heel shape are interesting; very few common (factory) plane in Britain or Europe have that amount of shaping on the heel. The toe is most interesting; it looks (to me) almost like a missing link between an English plane (no front grip) and a European "horn" (which are, of neccessity, "handed").

It might be interesting, and most inappropriate, to take these design ideas, and make a "super finished" version, combining Krenov's ergonomics with the materials and finish of an infill.

c.f. the grips on target pistols or bows.

http://dixongrips.com/index.php?main_pa ... ucts_id=71

BugBear


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## Javier (30 Jul 2007)

Sgian Dubh":15sp2xin said:


> ByronBlack":15sp2xin said:
> 
> 
> > You mean something like this?
> ...



I've read JK's books. His work was refined, not the organic type work mentioned above.


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## Sgian Dubh (30 Jul 2007)

Javier":1gxnjutq said:


> ...He work was refined, not the organic type work mentioned above.



I think that's already established Javier. Indirectly that was one of the points I made in my first post to this thread- the more refined look he promoted. It wasn't until the latter part of the 1970's that the work and writings of Krenov and others of that generation became well known and influential. They moved people forward and away from the clunky log look that was popular in the early 1970's.

Sadly, it doesn't alter the fact that I can't read Krenov's prose, try as I have many times over the last twenty five or thirty years. I suppose, therefore, his influence on my own work and philosophy must be minimal. Slainte.


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## Paul Kierstead (30 Jul 2007)

Sgian Dubh":38wbb9i5 said:


> Unfortunately Byron, I find Mr. Krenov's writings come across as directionless twittering. Reading a whole page of any any of his books gives me the urge to slam it shut and throw it away as far as possible, preferably into a fire.



Interesting. Although I have gained good information from a wide variety of woodworking books, Mr. Krenov's are the only ones I have ever actually enjoyed reading. It is kind of directionless I'll admit, but if I want to _read_, instead of having a reference, I like him.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


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## Anonymous (30 Jul 2007)

Sgian Dubh":2ma3lbxq said:


> snip
> I recall that we used to simply dismiss American craft woodworking of the early 1970's as the triumph of wood over all other considerations of design, taste, function and joinery skills, ie, lumpy tree root stuff slathered over with epoxy resin and, therefore, laughable junk, ha, ha. Slainte.


Still going strong in Scotland it seems.
I too never been drawn to Krenov or for that matter any of the popular woodwork gurus. I don't like gurus anyway but even more I don't like the worshipful uncritical audience they seem to attract - they are as bad as each other. To some extent poor old Krenov may be victim and had gurudom thrust upon him wether he wanted it or not. 
That vague mystical/naturalistic stuff is a bit of an American cultural tradition going back to Thoreau and earlier.

cheers
Jacob


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## Javier (30 Jul 2007)

I bought the Fine Art of Cabinetmaking. I thought it contained alot of practical info. Making
a handplane, cutting/selecting lumber. Handplane use, scraper use, matching grain
on doors cabinets. Dovetailing, doweling, choosing quality machinery, using Japanese chisels
(before they became popular in the West). He also goes step by step in the building of a cabinet.
The list goes on. I woulodn't consider him a guru, just an interesting instructor that makes cool
looking cabinets. Though he has made some wise, guruish quotes like the one below.


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## Anonymous (30 Jul 2007)

Javier":1hafpkij said:


> I bought the Fine Art of Cabinetmaking. I thought it contained alot of practical info. Making
> a handplane, cutting/selecting lumber. Handplane use, scraper use, matching grain
> on doors cabinets. Dovetailing, doweling, choosing quality machinery, using Japanese chisels
> (before they became popular in the West). He also goes step by step in the building of a cabinet.
> ...


Aha, so it's his fault then - all this japanese chisel mullarkey :roll: 
Anyway I've ordered the book. I ought at least to find out why I'm not interested in him! Might change my mind even.
Sorry not impressed by the quotation, I've got new-age friends who burble on endlessly like that, teetering on the edge of meaninglessness.

cheers
Jacob


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## engineer one (30 Jul 2007)

i think it is important to put jk in perspective, in the 70's as sgian dhub says american taste and style was dubious to say the least.

before the petrol crisis, the yanks had a great deal of money,but not too much taste to our eyes, and they thought that bigger was better.
along came the new post war designers who tried to play to that market. since they were such good marketers and pr people, they made it appear that that was all that was available.

along came people like jk who showed it was possible to make things slightly more subtely, although often too much wood and not enough form and function.

however it was because of this that the market grew for better hand tools, and even if we did not like the designs then at least we can be thankful for better tools, mass produced at decent prices. without jk i do not think LN and LV would have been able to be so brave.

so love him or hate him. you have to admit he helped move american design into a better place.

paul :wink:


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## Philly (30 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":4hcq9zt3 said:


> Aha, so it's his fault then - all this japanese chisel mullarkey :roll:



Nope, I think you'll find it's the fault of the Japanese.



Mr_Grimsdale":4hcq9zt3 said:


> Anyway I've ordered the book. I ought at least to find out why I'm not interested in him! Might change my mind even.



Speechless..... :shock: 

Philly


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## Sgian Dubh (30 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":1q3oi09w said:


> Still _*going strong in Scotland*_ it seems.
> Jacob



Ah Jacob, the work of Tim 'Stonehenge' Stead, now sadly departed. I knew him reasonably well, particularly some years ago when I worked for Edinburgh College of Art. We had good connections with most of the local furniture designer/ makers. Tim was quite a character, always ready to roll up a smoke on stage and spark it up half way through giving a seminar or lecture, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Javier (30 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":2i2iuiy0 said:


> I've got new-age friends who burble on endlessly like that, teetering on the edge of meaninglessness.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Your friends have become one with the universe. No but seriously, his book has alot of 
practical information, but written a generation ago you've probably heard many of the 
techniques repeated by others since.


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## Anonymous (31 Jul 2007)

Philly":1tp5xg3q said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":1tp5xg3q said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway I've ordered the book. I ought at least to find out why I'm not interested in him! Might change my mind even.
> ...


It was only £1.93 from Abebooks, I'm not getting carried away :lol: 
IMHO woodworking gurus in general seem to operate in isolation and tend to be blindly unaware of the great tradition of woodwork and the millions of anonymous artisans contributing to it. I tend to look at their work and think "so what?"
Here's a nice chair (obviously french) made by "anon" with backup from the collective genius of tradition:


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## Paul Chapman (31 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":voyu8op9 said:


> IMHO woodworking gurus in general seem to operate in isolation and tend to be blindly unaware of the great tradition of woodwork and the millions of anonymous artisans contributing to it.



When you know the background to some of these people you call gurus, that's often not true.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (31 Jul 2007)

Mr Grim wrote:


> Here's a nice chair (obviously french) made by "anon" with backup from the collective genius of tradition:


The chair is typical IMO of the countless beyond number of so called rustic, poorly made, ill proportioned, appallingly designed and badly finished artefacts that litter flea markets, boot fairs and 'antique' shops....I wouldn't give this sort of thing a second glance and if it were mine, it would be top of the pile on November 5th. Moreover, it's not even very old, note that the top rail at the front has had no wear worth speaking of. To compare this sort of utter rubbish with the furniture produced by JK ( even if you like or dislike his stuff) is frankly just a little disappointing - Rob


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## ByronBlack (31 Jul 2007)

woodbloke":b1e9w93e said:


> Mr Grim wrote:
> 
> 
> > Here's a nice chair (obviously french) made by "anon" with backup from the collective genius of tradition:
> ...



Ditto =D>


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## Anonymous (31 Jul 2007)

Predictable reaction. Nothing particular about that chair and not valuable, randomly googled "chaise paillee". Just a chirpy bit of "vernacular design" of a kind which always gives me pleasure. I'd rather have it than one of those overworked Makepeace monsters - even more so if I was sitting on it in it's home territory Provence with a glass of red wine in one hand and a Gauloise in the other!

cheers
Jacob


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## Javier (31 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":1yypg566 said:


> even more so if I was sitting on it in it's home territory Provence with a glass of red wine in one hand and a Gauloise in the other!
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Nice chair. I like the rustic style of chairs made by John Brown. He wrote some articles
for U.K.'s good woodworking magazine a couple years back. I'm thiniking of ordering his book. 
I need a good chair building guru. 8)


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## AHoman (31 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":33dxato2 said:


> IMHO woodworking gurus in general seem to operate in isolation and tend to be blindly unaware of the great tradition of woodwork and the millions of anonymous artisans contributing to it.



Are we still talking about the same James Krenov? The one who was the product of a trade school in Sweden? Or is this a kind of fantasy-whipping boy guru that you dream about? 
-Andy


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## woodbloke (31 Jul 2007)

Mr Grim wrote:


> I'd rather have it than one of those overworked Makepeace monsters - even more so if I was sitting on it in it's home territory Provence with a glass of red wine in one hand and a Gauloise in the other!


Mr Grim.....suggest you lay off the Gauloise, them foreign smokes'll do you no good. Were we talking about Krenov....I think so? So how did Makepeace sneak in? - Rob


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## Anonymous (31 Jul 2007)

woodbloke":3nalrg1b said:


> Mr Grim wrote:
> 
> 
> > I'd rather have it than one of those overworked Makepeace monsters - even more so if I was sitting on it in it's home territory Provence with a glass of red wine in one hand and a Gauloise in the other!
> ...


Given them up sadly, and so has most of France it seems - not a whiff last time I was there. It used to be next to garlic and pissoirs as the essential french pong.
Makepeace another "guru". Did JK make chairs at all? I'll find out when I get the book (if I don't throw it straight in the fire :lol: )
BTW if you keep your eyes open you can spot fascinating variations on straw bottomed chairs like the one above, all over the world. Some are very rustic and hewn like those painted by Van Gogh, greek cafes have them but different shape, lotsa french variations like this one with a bit of oo la la, common in chapels in Britain with arts n crafts prim and properness, some totally peasant made, others mass produced etc.
Often very sophisticated shapes but in an under-stated way which you only get to appreciate if you try to copy one.
I bet a JK chair would have very long spindly legs and a rather uncomfortable top so you'd bang your head on the ceiling. :lol:

cheers
Jacob


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## Anonymous (31 Jul 2007)

Javier":37oou2oz said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":37oou2oz said:
> 
> 
> > even more so if I was sitting on it in it's home territory Provence with a glass of red wine in one hand and a Gauloise in the other!
> ...


Just ordered it. Sounds interesting. 1st editions worth a bomb! Best price from toolpost. Thanks for that.

cheers
Jacob


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## DomValente (31 Jul 2007)

Had it not been for the "gurus", many many people would not have been inspired to woodwork, nor would designs have changed over the years and we would probably all still be sitting on rocks.
There are those who dislike change and in the world of design without change there would be nothing new to learn, which would be very sad, or shall we return to the 50s or 30s or.......


Dom


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## engineer one (31 Jul 2007)

yes but with all that he does seem to have made a beautiful plane that works well :lol: :twisted: :roll: 

if he gives more of us the desire to make our own woodies, and then use them then that is a thing to be happy for.
8) 
paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (31 Jul 2007)

Yes OK then if he's an inspiration that's good - but one may have to move on at some point.
Just trying to think what inspired me ("obviously nothing!" I hear you cry). Musta been Barry Bucknell.

cheers
Jacob


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## DomValente (31 Jul 2007)

Yeh me too  

Dom


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## engineer one (31 Jul 2007)

wot the man who made hardboard sexy :twisted: ??

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (31 Jul 2007)

That's the stuff. My old dad nailed it all over the place. Over our bedroom doors and windows infact. Luckily we saw it coming and had stashed away one of these but it still took us a week to get out :shock:


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## Paul Chapman (31 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":wwd7um5w said:


> Just trying to think what inspired me. Musta been Barry Bucknell.



That figures :roll: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## newt (31 Jul 2007)

I have read some of JK books and his writing is certainly different, but it did not bug me, it is just a different way of expressing his love of all things wood. As for his work, well I have not seen anything in the flesh and pictures can distort an image, but one thing that does impress me is the softness of his work. There are no sharp corners, there are gentle curves, the convex and concave doors I really like. I guess that up close things may not appeal so much as machining marks are often left, but is that not the nature of his work that makes it a bit different. The other aspect that I think is worth a mention is that a lot of his work was done in a very basic small workshop with minimal machines, that does encourage me.


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## Javier (1 Aug 2007)

He respected his high quality heavy duty machines. He didn't glorify the neanderthal approach, 
except when it came to the final touches. I should stop speaking of him in the past tense. Rumour has it 
that he's still alive. :lol:


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## dchenard (1 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":jhozs5np said:


> Makepeace another "guru". Did JK make chairs at all? I'll find out when I get the book (if I don't throw it straight in the fire :lol: )
> 
> 
> I bet a JK chair would have very long spindly legs and a rather uncomfortable top so you'd bang your head on the ceiling. :lol:
> ...



Jacob, gotta ask...

Is there *anyone* whose work was "popularized" in the last 20 years or so that you admire, or at least like? :? :shock: :roll: 

I know little of Makepeace, but what I've seen looked quite interesting. Krenov, well, I don't know where to stand... Some of his pieces are interesting, others I don't care for. I think that in his case the message he conveyed stands out from the rest of his work, and even that leaves me standing on one foot, as many who studied under him never made it out as furniture makers, as there was no emphasis in his teaching as how to make a living at it. Still, his influence can't be denied, like it or not...

Just my $0.02,

DC


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## Javier (1 Aug 2007)

dchenard":4ol5xodg said:


> as many who studied under him never made it out as furniture makers, as there was no emphasis in
> his teaching as how to make a living at it. Still, his influence can't be denied, like it or not...
> 
> Just my $0.02,
> ...



Yep, that's part of the criticism he receives from many wanna-be professional cabinet makers.
His romanticism, such as talking about enjoying the pitter patter of little feet up above his basement 
shop,etc. It was because of such criticism that he titled his next book "The Impractical Cabinetmaker".
He calls himself an amateur.


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## Anonymous (1 Aug 2007)

dchenard":2ugs75g2 said:


> snip
> Jacob, gotta ask...
> 
> Is there *anyone* whose work was "popularized" in the last 20 years or so that you admire, or at least like? :? :shock: :roll:
> ...


I like them all really. 
But what makes me uneasy is uncritical reverence. Acolytes tend to be less aware of the quality of non celebrity stuff and could be missing things - are blinded to "vernacular", the works of "anon" and dismiss the great tradition which we all fiddle about on the edge of.
No doubt JK is competent, well meaning and sincere old chap but he does burble on in a semi mystical way which is often the first sign of a charlatan.
Nevertheless I'm looking forward to reading his book. :lol: 

cheers
Jacob


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## Paul Chapman (1 Aug 2007)

Blimey, Jacob, you do make a lot of assumptions about the rest of us :roll: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (1 Aug 2007)

To be fair, Jacob does say "could" be missing things. And I find I agree with him - uncritical reverence makes me uneasy too. Actually it makes me heave, but then I'm not naturally good at lack of criticism...  I think it also does a disservice to, for want of a better word, the "guru" - gurus with adoring unquestioning fans have to be twice to three times as brilliant to get me past the initial heaving reaction. :lol: Fundamentally I find it's easiest to treat it like football. i.e. Don't confuse the football with the footballers. And don't confuse the footballers with their fans.

Jacob, quite surprised you haven't already read John Brown; think he might be right up your street. On the other hand he has fans and has been known to wax a tiny bit mystical, so maybe not.  If you do enjoy it, drop me a PM - I may have something of interest.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (1 Aug 2007)

Alf":1kwsouiy said:


> I think it also does a disservice to, for want of a better word, the "guru" - gurus with adoring unquestioning fans have to be twice to three times as brilliant to get me past the initial heaving reaction.



Perhaps if we replace the word "guru" with "master" or "teacher" or "sensei" we might do better. They all have less "mystical" connotations.

BugBear


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## Paul Chapman (1 Aug 2007)

Alf":3p911v6g said:


> To be fair, Jacob does say "could" be missing things.



Yes, but Jacob does tend to come across as if he thinks the rest of us are ignorant and know nothing. Some of us might just have spent many years studying and appreciating the arts and crafts in all their various forms :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## ByronBlack (1 Aug 2007)

just where are all these uncritical acolytes? I don't see many on this forum. You only have take the 'interesting pieces' threads to see how divided in taste we all are - especially with regards to these mythical 'guru's Jacob speaks of.

Jacob, to be honest, reading your posts on this subject, you come across sounding quite bitter about the well known makers, I wonder why that is? 

If someone really liked krenov or charlesworth, or savage, or becksvoort or whoever doesn't mean they are an acolyte blinded to other opinions, thats quite rediculous. It would be like me saying that all liverpool FC fans are uncritical acolytes - which of course there not, not matter what people like I would say the majority are balanced enough not to have a blind disregard to any negative aspects of their particular interest.

My final point ref krenov's books: so what if its mystical and whimsical? You tell me what is wrong with that? Would you also slag of japanese artists who have a very spiritual/mystical aspect about themselves? Should all books on the subject be dry with technical detail?

Jacob, i'm glad you're bothering to read the book, although I doubt it'll change your opinion, it would be nice if you could perhaps streth your undoubtedly intelligent mind to be just a little more open and accepting.


----------



## Anonymous (1 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":2ghofpd5 said:


> snip
> Jacob, to be honest, reading your posts on this subject, you come across sounding quite bitter about the well known makers, I wonder why that is?
> snip


No not bitter - think thats down to chat group misinterpretation as per often the case. Opinionated yes.

Anyway off to the sea side shortly, mrs G and dog G in the car already, getting agitated!

cheers
Jacob


----------



## mr (1 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":3c9lkgdc said:


> No not bitter - think thats down to chat group misinterpretation as per often the case. Opinionated yes.
> cheers
> Jacob



Is that a good thing? 

o·pin·ion·at·ed /əˈpɪnyəˌneɪtɪd/ Pronunciation Key 
–adjective
obstinate or conceited with regard to the merit of one's own opinions; conceitedly dogmatic.

alternately if you prefer

o·pin·ion·at·ed (ə-pĭn'yə-nā'tĭd) Pronunciation Key 
adj. Holding stubbornly and often unreasonably to one's own opinions.


----------



## AHoman (1 Aug 2007)

mr":1bgeuslm said:


> Is that a good thing?



mr,
Some people think they can use words any way they wish -- they simply lack any sense of respect for the language and the history and traditions of its use, as established over the centuries by "anon."  :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 
-Andy


----------



## ByronBlack (1 Aug 2007)

AHoman":353m6381 said:


> mr":353m6381 said:
> 
> 
> > Is that a good thing?
> ...



This is coming from an american? (my apologies if you're an expat).


----------



## Paul Chapman (1 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":1o4dw2ee said:


> Anyway off to the sea side shortly



What's more irritating than sharing a beach with someone with six kids and a transistor radio? Yes, you got it in one :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## ByronBlack (1 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":2e6uuuy5 said:


> Anyway off to the sea side shortly



Be careful of the great whites!


----------



## mr (1 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":3vn9126g said:


> Be careful of the great whites!



Praps not as far fetched as one might think 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/6920345.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/3115573.stm

I shall be off for a spot of surfing in Croyde this Sunday - cue the Jaws theme...

Cheers Mike


----------



## ByronBlack (1 Aug 2007)

Your gonna need a bigger surfboard!


----------



## David C (1 Aug 2007)

Alf,

Are John Brown's magnificent writings still available please?

David Charlesworth


----------



## Javier (2 Aug 2007)

David C":1v5seq2l said:


> Alf,
> 
> Are John Brown's magnificent writings still available please?
> 
> David Charlesworth



I should of bought his book on Welsh stick chair making when I saw it at are local bookstore a 
couple years ago. Not to change the subject but I just bought David Charlesworth's book
"A Guide to Hand Tools and Methods." Good stuff , I heartily recommend it. Gonna 
have to give that diamond paste and mdf sharpening a try.


----------



## jaspr (2 Aug 2007)

Thanks for the review of your Krenov plane, Derek. I was waiting to hear more.

One thing you didn't mention was how well it fits your hand and grip. Being personalised for Mr K, it might not work as well for you as it did for him. I'm curious. And here's the rub - would you modify it to fit your own hand/grip?

I'm struck by something Krenov once wrote: "There's no magic in any tool until you put the magic in it. The magic doesn't come with the tool."

I was interested in the way he shaped it, because generally I hold a wooden smoother with my hand over the top at the back and this doesn't leave much of my palm on the closer side. Though I don't have a lot of experience - and this is with a horned german smoother, which maybe held differently.


----------



## Alf (2 Aug 2007)

David, well his book is and the article in FWW he did a while back was certainly on their "Best Of" CD, but his GWW articles haven't ever been republished as far as I'm aware. I don't know if GWW still has copyright and whether their new owners might have the wit to see the market for them, but we live in hope. In the meantime - well, I'll email you...

Cheers, Alf


----------



## AHoman (2 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":1fg1zl0v said:


> This is coming from an american?



That's with a capital "A"! :twisted: 

-Andy


----------



## ByronBlack (2 Aug 2007)

AHoman":3hi7xdoc said:


> ByronBlack":3hi7xdoc said:
> 
> 
> > This is coming from an american?
> ...



No offense intended, but American's have butchered the english language so it's almost un-recognisable so I find your below statement abit of pot calling the kettle black: (in a good humoured way) 

Quote:
"they simply lack any sense of respect for the language and the history and traditions of its use, as established over the centuries by "anon."

While i'm on the subject, there's two phrases that i've noticed Americans using a lot and it's always baffled me as it makes no sense; I wonder if you can shed some light on:

Phrase 1. "Most everyone" - that just sounds very odd, surely it should be : "Mostly everyone"

Phrase 2. "Write him" - again, sounds very odd, it should be "write TO him"??

And what happened to the missing "i" in aluminium? :lol: :lol:


----------



## mr (2 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":1ow07ah6 said:


> Phrase 1. "Most everyone" - that just sounds very odd, surely it should be : "Mostly everyone"
> 
> Phrase 2. "Write him" - again, sounds very odd, it should be "write TO him"??
> 
> And what happened to the missing "i" in aluminium? :lol: :lol:



Shouldn't that be "almost everyone"? Mostly everyone meaning (to me) that - for the most part everyone ... - rather than a percentage of totality.

"Write him" is fine usage if intended as an imperative. Next time you hear it write "him" on the wall in large letters  

Aluminum ? Now there's just no excuse for that  

But back on topic I'm left wondering whether had I the cash I would stump up for one of Mr Krenovs planes. Their appeal to me is the provenance, The plane itself is probably no better or no worse than any other made by a (better than) competent maker. I have one of Phillys planes it works admirably, as well I would wager as one of Krenovs - though not having had the experience of the latter I couldn't say for sure. Sure I'd like to contribute to Mr Krenovs retirement fund but something stops me - other than the actual not having the cash to do so element.  


Cheers Mike


----------



## ByronBlack (2 Aug 2007)

mr":2yo5o7kq said:


> ByronBlack":2yo5o7kq said:
> 
> 
> > Phrase 1. "Most everyone" - that just sounds very odd, surely it should be : "Mostly everyone"
> ...



But Mike, they use the phrase "write him/her/me" to mean "write TO that person".. it's still wrong! :lol: :lol: 

On subject: I wouldn't buy a krenov plane. I would prefer a cabinet


----------



## dunbarhamlin (2 Aug 2007)

Many phrases and expressions considered archetypal of the American argot are either archaic British english or a consequence of America's polyglot past.

'Most everyone' could have arisen either as a simple contraction of 'Almost...' or from non-native speakers reconstructing previously heard expressions with a limited vocabulary ( 'most people' + 'almost everyone' )

'Write him' - again, either non-native speakers (compare the similar ecrivez moi) or archaic - I often heard this sort of construction when visiting my grandparents in Lincolnshire, thirty-something years ago.

I do notice a deterioration in my standard of english over the years. I do however watch very little television, and so doubt I can fairly blame this all on our American friends.


----------



## bugbear (2 Aug 2007)

dunbarhamlin":2mza8m6b said:


> I do notice a deterioration in my standard of english over the years. I do however watch very little television, and so doubt I can fairly blame this all on our American friends.



The usage I dislike is "needs <future>" as in

"that blade is blunt; it needs sharpened"

I think "it needs sharpening", or "it needs to be sharpened" are correct.

But I think this is (in fact) a regional variation and not a "youth of today" thing.

BugBear


----------



## woodbloke (2 Aug 2007)

Mr wrote:


> I the cash I would stump up for one of Mr Krenovs planes. Their appeal to me is the provenance, The plane itself is probably no better or no worse than any other made by a (better than) competent maker.


Mike - I was in the same quandary and didn't really have the cash but felt *exactly* the same way....me want toy, no dosh  . Fortunately SWIMBO saw me skulking around for a couple of weeks with a face as long as a double decker bus and dipped into her sack for the old plastic :lol:....happy now :lol: 

Incidently, why can't we have 'favourite' instead of 'favorite' on the spellchecker - Rob


----------



## MikeW (2 Aug 2007)

Wel us hilbilly bastages of the proper folk just dont no no better dang it all any way

Tracing linguistic variations, permutations and simplifications over time is a fascinating study as dunbarhamlin alludes to.

My theory? one does not need to look further than their own backyards to account for such relaxing of grammar, spelling, and usage.

Take care, Mike 'hilbilly' Wenzloff


----------



## Alf (2 Aug 2007)

Erm... is this the same Byron Black who didn't think this forum was the place for my objection to the use of "very unique"...?  :wink:

In a similar vein to Linconshire experience; a very Cornish Cornishwoman round here consistantly says "on farm" rather than "on the farm".

Cheers, Alf


----------



## mr (2 Aug 2007)

MikeW":1cfj2i7s said:


> Tracing linguistic variations, permutations and simplifications over time is a fascinating study as dunbarhamlin alludes to.



Nooooooooooooooo. I did a linguistics minor to my lit major degree course when I was a student {spits} - I can honestly say I have never found anything as tedious as the linguistics bit which is odd as I have nothing against learning languages - dead ones in my own case, and as it (the linguistics "stuff") remains with me to this day - strange.



woodbloke":1cfj2i7s said:


> Fortunately SWIMBO saw me skulking around for a couple of weeks with a face as long as a double decker bus and dipped into her sack for the old plastic :lol:....happy now :lol: - Rob



Sorely tempted but I know I must restrain myself. 

Cheers Mike


----------



## engineer one (2 Aug 2007)

so how many sharks did you catch mike :lol: 

linguistics to woodworking, and by hand, that seems to work,
no wonder your writings are so good allowing for the subbies

paul :wink:


----------



## ByronBlack (2 Aug 2007)

Alf":3833b30f said:


> Erm... is this the same Byron Black who didn't think this forum was the place for my objection to the use of "very unique"...?  :wink:
> 
> In a similar vein to Linconshire experience; a very Cornish Cornishwoman round here consistantly says "on farm" rather than "on the farm".
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Somehow I just knew this might pop up! Fair cop guv! But I thought with the American on the thread I would pick his brains on those particular phrases, I wasn't having a dig.. I just see them all the time in professional (so called) publications and think it's odd. I can understand thats how people speak, but in print, I would expect grammer/language to be better.


----------



## MikeW (2 Aug 2007)

> ...I would pick his brains on those particularly phrases...


Now, would it not be proper English to write "particular" instead of "particularly" in this instance :lol: 

I agree in the main, BB. I hold professional publications to a higher standard to the way the common person writes or speaks. In fact, I could care less about the subject in that regard.

This so-called standard I hold the professinal publications to, though, has been a moving target. I do believe I have relaxed my opinion over time.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Anonymous (2 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":219toiwq said:


> And what happened to the missing "i" in aluminium? :lol: :lol:



It was never there.

The correct and original spelling is Aluminum, we, the brits added the extra 'i' to make Aluminium


----------



## mr (2 Aug 2007)

Tony":33eojn6q said:


> ByronBlack":33eojn6q said:
> 
> 
> > And what happened to the missing "i" in aluminium? :lol: :lol:
> ...



It was originally Alumium and then amended via Aluminum to Aluminium so as to fit better with the other elements. 

Sharks this coming Sunday Paul. 

Cheers Mike


----------



## MikeW (2 Aug 2007)

mr":31pnfnyj said:


> Tony":31pnfnyj said:
> 
> 
> > ByronBlack":31pnfnyj said:
> ...


"Aluminium is the international standard in the sciences (IUPAC). The American spelling is nonetheless used by many American scientists. Davey, the element's discoverer, proposed both "alumium", and later "aluminum". The name "aluminium" was finally adopted to conform with the -ium ending of many elements.[3] Canada as U.S."

Go figure :lol: 

Take care, Mike


----------



## ByronBlack (2 Aug 2007)

MikeW":256dn8st said:


> > ...I would pick his brains on those particularly phrases...
> 
> 
> Now, would it not be proper English to write "particular" instead of "particularly" in this instance :lol:
> ...



Please don't confuse my poor ability to type with a keyboard and my ability to spill wards 

AND - you have typed another of those phrases that I can't work out.

You say : I could care less
When to make the phrase mean something, surely it should be: Couldn't care less?

It's quite interesting how these phrases have mutated over the years/atlantic


----------



## Paul Chapman (2 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":o9byguex said:


> You say : I could care less
> When to make the phrase mean something, surely it should be: Couldn't care less?



Who cares, anyway :? :? :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## AHoman (2 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":3dpdi0f3 said:


> No offense intended, but American's have butchered the english language so it's almost un-recognisable so I find your below statement abit of pot calling the kettle black: (in a good humoured way)



1. I think that you meant "Americans," not "American's." The apostrophe should only be used to indicate the possessive. Unless the English have changed that rule of thumb!
2. That would be "the English language," not "the english language."
3. "Unrecognizable" or "unrecognisable" are acceptable spellings, but the hyphen is misplaced.
4. The phrase is "the pot calling the kettle black." "A bit of pot" is something that you might buy in the back room of a nightclub.



ByronBlack":3dpdi0f3 said:


> While i'm on the subject, there's two phrases that i've noticed Americans using a lot and it's always baffled me as it makes no sense; I wonder if you can shed some light on:



5. We capitalize "I" ("I'm" and "I've") in the States -- have the British put an end to this quaint practice?
6. "There's two phrases" should be "there are two phrases." This was interesting to me. "There's two phrases" sounds like something I heard in Pennsylvania.
7. There should be a comma before "and it's always baffled me."

My point is, Americans (no apostrophe) do not have a monopoly on butchering the English (capital E) language. I may be a guest on this forum, but its no reason to insult me and millions of others who may or may not adhere to prescriptive grammar as written by an Englishman.

Perhaps my original point needs to be explained. It seems that our dear Mr. Grimsdale used the term "opinionated" to describe himself, apparently ignoring the negative definition of the term. My statement about "ignoring tradition" refered to his blanket generalization about "gurus." I did not intend this to be about which side of the Atlantic one splashes.

The irony here is that I am not a big fan of prescriptive grammar (or more generally, prescriptive linguistics). However, in my field of research, I deal with it all the time, as many Germans assume that their form of the language is superior to that which is spoken and written in Austria, rather than accepting the differences, or even understanding, from the viewpoint of historical linguistics, how many of the supposed "butcherings" are actually antiquated forms, or at the very least, regional expressions that demonstrate that these languages are alive and have not yet been killed off by grammarians. From a sociolinguistic point of view, the little phrases that sound "wrong" to your ears are actually just as logical as anything that has managed to get into the prescriptivists' books.

All of this is on an entirely different level than Jacob Grimsdale's self-assessment that he is "opinionated." I don't think that he actually meant what he said, but what he said rang very, very true!

-Andy


----------



## engineer one (2 Aug 2007)

andy, thought for the day, in england, we tend to think of capitalisation in emails as something called " shouting" whereas it is assumed over here that emails are more like conversations.

paul :wink:


----------



## mr (2 Aug 2007)

AHoman":kgnqs3o7 said:


> Perhaps my original point needs to be explained. It seems that our dear Mr. Grimsdale used the term "opinionated" to describe himself, apparently ignoring the negative definition of the term. My statement about "ignoring tradition" refered to his blanket generalization about "gurus."
> -Andy



Well if it's any consolation I appreciated your original point coming, as it did, on the heels of my own posting re Grimsdale's use of the word obstinate. Everything since has really been a bit of light hearted banter (at least I hope it has). Probably best left that way. 



AHoman":kgnqs3o7 said:


> All of this is on an entirely different level than Jacob Grimsdale's self-assessment that he is "opinionated." I don't think that he actually meant what he said, but what he said rang very, very true!



Exactly my previous point we are of one mind  

And now back to Krenovs smoothers... (ooer a coordinating conjuction with a capital A - I know its's not wrong only perceived as so .... 

No stop it 
stop it.....


Cheers Mike


----------



## Jake (2 Aug 2007)

engineer one":2vq7qrlk said:


> andy, thought for the day, in england, we tend to think of capitalisation in emails as something called " shouting" whereas it is assumed over here that emails are more like conversations.
> 
> paul :wink:



ONLY IF YOU CAPITALISE EVERYTHING. And that's a nettiquette thing, not an English thing.

Not capitalising anything is borderline txtspk.


----------



## AHoman (2 Aug 2007)

bugbear":zf95gihw said:


> The usage I dislike is "needs <future>" as in
> "that blade is blunt; it needs sharpened"
> I think "it needs sharpening", or "it needs to be sharpened" are correct.
> But I think this is (in fact) a regional variation and not a "youth of today" thing.



Hi Bugbear,
Over here, you'll here this as a regional variation, across generations, in the Mid-Atlantic Coast region where I grew up. I've heard it in Pennsylvania and Maryland, but people in New York often think that it sounds "wrong" -- whereas "needs sharpening" doesn't sound very good to my ears. It is the one remnant of my dialect that didn't get hammered out of me by years of urban life and Ivy League education! Generally, I would write "needs to be sharpened" but would say "needs sharpened." FWIW I believe that it is a ghost from the influence of the German language on English in PA and MD.
The accent in PA is another story. I have heard from more than one Irish friend that my accent (and that of others from my region) sounds very similar to what is heard in some very particular town in Ireland (I don't recall the name). And if anyone wants to hear a really unusual American dialect, they should come to Vermont!
-Andy


----------



## Javier (2 Aug 2007)

There ain't nutt'in wrong wit Murican English.hehehe

I do find myself sometimes using the English subtitle function on my DVD player when watching
certain movies from the British Isles. Someone's gotta teach dem British actors how to
speak good english. :wink: 

I bought a Kenov smoother. Couldn't resist, he's my favorite guru. Of course it holds no mysterical 
powers. Just wanted to possess something crafted by him.


----------



## pedder (2 Aug 2007)

Hi Andy, 
have I seen you posting on woodworking.de?



AHoman":nzxhcvx2 said:


> FWIW I believe that it is a ghost from the influence of the German language on English in PA and MD.



german influence?

the correct form would be "müsste geschärft werden" oder "müsste schärfer sein" :lol: 

so influence :?: :?: :?: 

Cheers Pedder


----------



## AHoman (2 Aug 2007)

pedder":ewcdlwzq said:


> Hi Andy,
> have I seen you posting on woodworking.de?



Jawohl.



pedder":ewcdlwzq said:


> german influence?
> 
> the correct form would be "müsste geschärft werden" oder "müsste schärfer sein" :lol:
> 
> so influence :?: :?: :?:



Sure, Pedder. The German in question, in Pennsylvania, is not modern "Hochdeutsch"! It's been a long time since I looked this up in a study of "Pennsylvania German," but I believe that the construct was with a form of "brauchen." Regardless, the German in PA, since it was mostly spoken by individuals living in a largely "English" culture, developed along a different path than anything that you've ever heard spoken in Germany during this century (or the last!). So any knowledge of modern German constructs is largely irrelevant to understanding the influence of obscure Allemanisch (and other) dialects on the English in Pennsylvania! It was still German, but it was not German from the Bundesrepublik (of course). At any rate, most of the syntactical peculiarities in English spoken in Pennsylvania are understood to stem from the large number of "German" speakers who acquired English as a second language over the course of PA's history.
-Andy


----------



## woodbloke (2 Aug 2007)

mr wrote:


> It was originally Alumium and then amended via Aluminum to Aluminium so as to fit better with the other elements.


....or as my old granny used to say.... 'are you aluminiumining my good man, or copperbottomining' :lol: - Rob


----------



## gidon (3 Aug 2007)

[No message]


----------



## ByronBlack (3 Aug 2007)

Ignore all I have said on the subject.

Back to Guru Krenov.


----------



## Javier (3 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":9r2696lw said:


> Edit:
> Second Edit: I want to apologise for dragging this thread off topic and for my petulant outburst above - secondly, I want to apologise to anyone I have offended. I'm officialy an ****.
> 
> Back to Guru Krenov.



I thought your good humour was obvious.


----------



## Anonymous (4 Aug 2007)

Back from seaside a bit sooner for various reasons.

I see that my use of a long word has sent several of our members scurrying off in alarm to look at their dictionaries. I take "opinionated" to mean "having and expressing opinions". The Shorter Oxford English seems to agree with me on this as the most common usage.
I see this as distinct from merely concurring (oops sorry another long word!) with the general drift. 
This can mean getting things wrong of course, and it can attract a bit of hostility as we see in this thread. 
People are so anxious to hang on to whatever ideas they have managed to grasp that they feel vaguely threatened by alternatives. That's why gurus are so popular - they mean you don't have to think for yourself.
Re; boring waffle about "correct usage"; I am more interested in what people are saying than how they say it, however "incorrectly".

It seems that the J Brown book is out of print after all and generally scarce so I'm going to have to get it from the library. Just when I was getting interested too, oh well.

cheers
Jacob


----------



## Scrit (4 Aug 2007)

An interesting thread, although I must admit to almost losing the will to live (let alone read further) around the middle of page 5..... So, having missed all the fun, can I stir the pot? :twisted: 



Sgian Dubh":25bf4kf3 said:


> I find Mr. Krenov's writings come across as directionless twittering. Reading a whole page of any any of his books gives me the urge to slam it shut and throw it away as far as possible, preferably into a fire.


Phew! The man who has launched a thousand Americans, etc........ :shock: 

I have to say that Jim Krenov's _work_ has certainly influenced my way of thinking. I have to admit that his writing, however, I can only take in small doses



Sgian Dubh":25bf4kf3 said:


> I recall that we used to simply dismiss American craft woodworking of the early 1970's as the triumph of wood over all other considerations of design, taste, function and joinery skills, ie, lumpy tree root stuff slathered over with epoxy resin and, therefore, laughable junk, ha, ha. Slainte.


And in some ways it appears not to have changed all that much, either, especially out on the West Coast



engineer one":25bf4kf3 said:


> ....along came people like jk who showed it was possible to make things slightly more subtely....


So you've not seen any of the postwar Scandiavian work of other people then? Surely the stylistic influences on Krenov's were the same as those which shaped people like say Hans Wegner (who sadly passed away at the start of this year) or Eero Saarinen? But then their work was more commercial.



Mr_Grimsdale":25bf4kf3 said:


> Just trying to think what inspired me........
> 
> Musta been Barry Bucknell.


Ye gods! We hath a heathen amongst us! (I'd have said Goth or Vandal, but didn't all the so-called Barbarians just get a bad press from the Romans?)



Mr_Grimsdale":25bf4kf3 said:


> No doubt JK is competent, well meaning and sincere old chap but he does burble on in a semi mystical way which is often the first sign of a charlatan.


Or of genius? OK, I'd suggest look at the pictures and make up your mind about what you think of his work. Then (try to) read the text.......



Mr_Grimsdale":25bf4kf3 said:


> I don't like gurus anyway but even more I don't like the worshipful uncritical audience they seem to attract - they are as bad as each other.


I don't think that JK set himself up to be a guru. It's just that in the 1970s van Nostrand-Reinhold published a book with his work in it. That work was so utterly different from the dross being cranked in the USA at the time that it struck a chord with many people. Judging from the number of slavish adherents to his style tofday, it still does. Maybe it's just a passing fad.

Scrit


----------



## Javier (4 Aug 2007)

He's just an interesting old guy that makes attractive items from interesting woods.
Noone to get too emotional about critiquing or defending. I see countless items from amateurs
and professionals which excite me. In my case I knew or cared nothing about woodworking,
was browsing at the bookstore and just happened upon his books. Their was a big wow factor.
So I jokingly refer to him as "guru" because he jumpstarted my interest in the craft. Of course
that was years ago, and I've moved moved so far above that now (tongue firmly in cheek).
Alot of American woodworkers can't stand him, for the same reasons mentioned above by
others. Some think he's too esoteric, others say he's a cranky old man that has little tolerance
for other's work. Other's because they see him as to artsy. etc.


----------



## ByronBlack (4 Aug 2007)

It's a bit unfair to keep referring to his age, as his work and writings have been produced throughout his entire adult life when he wasn't 'old'. Either way, if it wasn't for guys like JK to actually put pen to paper and be prepared to teach others - our hobby would not be as interesting.


----------



## Javier (4 Aug 2007)

Point well taken. I apologize for emphasizing his present age.


----------



## AHoman (4 Aug 2007)

Javier":36j6i5oz said:


> [...] he jumpstarted my interest in the craft. Of course
> that was years ago, and I've moved moved so far above that now (tongue firmly in cheek).



Javier,
Thanks for that post. One thing is for sure, and that is that any American woodworker who isn't leading a totally isolated existence must have some opinion about Krenov. In my case, I enjoy reading his reflections about working wood, but I am not drawn to (or repelled from) the designs of his pieces. I do enjoy his freehand treatment of edges, and the very subtle curve of almost every line. But for me, he isn't really a guru to begin with, so I don't understand why others would resent him for that status (which I don't believe he ever wanted). I don't have a woodworking guru because none of them really work in a way that I wish to -- I take bits and pieces where I can find them. I've met some good teachers, none of whom are well known beyond the region. I am planning to attend a lecture by Thomas Moser in a few days, but he is hardly a "guru" -- I do think that he will have some interesting things to say about Shaker furniture. It's somewhat of a shame that one cannot admire someone else's life and work (as Derek did) without being accused of guru worship.
-Andy


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## engineer one (4 Aug 2007)

oops scrit, i must grovel, but what i meant and obviously did not get across was that to me, although the scandinavians did have a lot of influence, in many ways you could not call it furniture to be made by craftsmen, rather as you say an industrialised design which bought clean design to the masses, and even habitat( or should we say shabitat :twisted: )

what krenov did was bring to the wider american market a better expression of design for the craftsman to make.

not sure if that's any clearer but i like to look at all forms and then see what sits properly for the item i am building.

paul :wink:


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## Javier (4 Aug 2007)

AHoman":33rnoygo said:


> I am planning to attend a lecture by Thomas Moser in a few days, but he is hardly a "guru" -- I do think that he will have some interesting things to say about Shaker furniture. -Andy



He's a very innovative guy. Been to his store in Maine and really like his stuff.


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## Javier (5 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":34eqr8ry said:


> "guru". Did JK make chairs at all? I'll find out when I get the book (I bet a JK chair
> would have very long spindly legs and a rather uncomfortable top so you'd bang your head on the ceiling. :lol:
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



He did make chairs and small student desks. Unfortunately none are shown in the book
you ordered, but in some of his later books. (not sure which ones). What I don't like about
the book you ordered is the very lousy black and white photography. Some of his other
books were reprinted in vibrant color, not this one.


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## kees (6 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":1hc37i52 said:


> Javier":1hc37i52 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr_Grimsdale":1hc37i52 said:
> ...



http://tinyurl.com/yt92fe drew langsner Here John Brown is not smoking!
http://tinyurl.com/2hyp4l mike abbott

from the NL
Kees


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## kees (6 Aug 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":r7i55ot1 said:


> Back from seaside a bit sooner for various reasons.
> It seems that the J Brown book is out of print after all and generally scarce so I'm going to have to get it from the library. Just when I was getting interested too, oh well.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



I have a sealed copie for sale. 

kees


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## ByronBlack (6 Aug 2007)

A podcast on the subject of J.Krenow - might be of interest to some:

http://woodbutcherpapers.blip.tv/


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## Javier (6 Aug 2007)

> drew langsner Here John Brown is not smoking!



Yeah, I thought it was kinda funny his mentioning of the dangers of machine-made fine
sawdust and nasal cancer. In the article that he mentioned this there was a cigarrette sticking
out of his mouth. :wink:


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## wonky (10 Aug 2007)

i hope i dont upset to many people being as im new here, but looking at the mr krenov plane and the one moderator tony made in good woodworking i know which one i would pay my money for.
everyon is making comments about his failing eyesight but i reckoon he saw a few people coming :lol:


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## Javier (10 Aug 2007)

confused.com":1gr1i2he said:


> everyon is making comments about his failing eyesight but i reckoon he saw a few people coming :lol:



I reckoon I can get my money back for it if I really want to some day. LOL


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## woodbloke (10 Aug 2007)

Javier":1591xn0k said:


> confused.com":1591xn0k said:
> 
> 
> > everyon is making comments about his failing eyesight but i reckoon he saw a few people coming :lol:
> ...



......'specially if you've got a *signed* JK plane :wink: :







......just at the front above the sole - Rob


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## ByronBlack (10 Aug 2007)

Rob, out of curiosity - do you know if he made the blade, or is it sourced from somewhere?


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## Javier (11 Aug 2007)

ByronBlack":3l7loyr9 said:


> Rob, out of curiosity - do you know if he made the blade, or is it sourced from somewhere?



He uses Ron Hock blade and chipbreaker.


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