# Method of joining simple bookcase



## James555

I'm making a simple bookcase out of 22mm MDF.
I would like to avoid screwing into the sides, for aesthetics, and wonder if dominoes and glue would suffice. 
If going in an alcove i'd screw for sure, but this is freestanding.
Cheers.


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## robgul

I would suggest that it depends on the size (especially width of the shelves) and whether there is a back in the bookcase to keep it together and square - and subject to the finish (paint?) could you cut rebates for the shelves to sit in rather than dominoes? - if the material is 22mm that should work.


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## James555

Hi.
Will be a painted finish. 
900mm wide, 300mm deep. 
No back.
Did think about rebates but keen to avoid if possible.


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## johnnyb

it will be very saggy when its full of books.


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## TheTiddles

There’s no way that’ll work well unless you have significant drop edges on the shelves or make them as torsion boxes or also fasten into a backboard whatever fastening you use into the sides you’ll have sagging shelves and they will pull the joints apart. If you’re painting you should be able hide any fastenings used
Aidan


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## Droogs

i would suggest you watch Peter Millards current video series on 10 minute workshop


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## petermillard

Yes, dominos will be fine for that, well glued and clamped. But as others have said, 22mm MR at that span with no back support - I wouldn’t personally. Step it up to 25mm shelves, and add a solid timber lipping front and back, and you should be OK, but I’d test it first. Any particular reason why there’s no back?


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## robgul

. . . as an alternative to an overall back panel what might look quite good is for each shelf to have a low back, say 1/3 of the height of the shelf space, which would a) stop books falling through the shelves, and b) if fixed to the shelves and the sides afford some strength and stability. The public library (remember them?!) where I used to live had free-standing shelving like that - although it was made in oak!


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## Sandb1g

Droogs said:


> i would suggest you watch Peter Millards current video series on 10 minute workshop


.


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## James555

Thanks all.
I did run the dimensions through the sagulator website, but you cant beat 'real world' experience. 
There's no back as it will be in front of a 'feature wall'.
Beefing it up to 25mm + lipping might be prudent. 
I like the idea of the low back, but going for very clean lines......and ideally no sag!


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## johnnyb

why not use real wood as its only 300mm deep. mdf is a truly dreadful product tbh. wood is a delight to be used at every opportunity.


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## johnnyb

mdf is just a cheap and nasty fill material. use 18mm birch ply but wood... real honest to goodness timber is best.


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## robgul

johnnyb said:


> mdf is just a cheap and nasty fill material. use 18mm birch ply but wood... real honest to goodness timber is best.



Agreed - but @petermillard may have some comments! - it's horses for courses . . . if it's painted then the saving on cost for MDF against Birch ply is worthy of consideration (having tested other ply qualities anything less than Birch is not great for furniture in my view)


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## johnnyb

I even find the flat lifeless surface of mdf to be unpleasant to look at. if im painting i like Ash veneered mdf. but as a woodworker I'm interested in working wood. but as an amateur I wouldn't use it unless there were no alternatives. It raises as many issues as it solves


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## Droogs

For us in the UK where we don't have particularly large humidity swings through the year and nearly all homes have central heating of some sort, the practical reality is that MDF/Ply are the best option for making most of the furniture items we need. Also the fact that we are increasingly aware of our ecological impact on our environment MDF faced with veneer gives us the best use of resources.
As many of the things I normally make (when I am fit enough to work properly) also involve housing internal components that can and do generate a lot of very dry heat when being used, as much as I would love to make things "properly" with deal and as much solid wood and accents with veneer as I could, availability, cost, practicality and a desire for a livable profit mean that is just not possible. So the solution is to use MDF for the lower cost items and properly decent furniture grade ply for the top end.
As I put a final veneer surface on nearly everything I make (either a solid field or a marquetry image) I just buy un-veneered MRMDF and if possible create a lipping of the wood the final veneer will be, usually 20mm deep, on each component part that is applied to the edge before the final finish veneer is put on and take the time to get the join as invisible as possible to prevent telegraphing of any kind and then once done, any edge detailing is put on. For ply I still buy the highest grade I can with the best face surface even though it won't be seen but makes a massive difference once the final veneer is applied. Each component made out of a man-made material is cut to size taking the lippings application into consideration and only becomes a completed part after the lipping is applied and worked. By this I mean the edge lipped part is treated as if it is a solid timber once the lip is on. This gives me the best stability factor and allows the use of traditional tools without too much wear on them that is normally caused when working sheet goods etc.

So MDF and Ply do not need to be featureless characterless material if used with a bit of aforethought. Of course my way of working means you need to do a lot of veneering yourself but hey the core material is much cheaper and you get the exact final effect you want by putting on your own veneer.

edit typos


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## robgul

I'm in an "exposed plywood edge" phase of furniture making . . . so far a dining table, a matching console table and a storage unit to sit beside our coffee machine - a 4 drawer chest is in the design stage.


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## TheUnicorn

i don't like mdf much, but that aside, I'd run a rebate side to side across the width of the shelves (underside) , into which I'd glue a batten of wood, side on so the thickest side of the wood is running vertically, essentially making a t cross section, that should do something to minimise the inevitable sag on the shelves. as far as joints I'd be looking to dowels or domnoes if you don't like the idea of rebates on the side


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## johnnyb

its going to be painted so use wood or ply and screw it together then fill.totally invisible. use biscuits as locators if you want. I've made bookcases with wedged through tenoned housing joints in solid.


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## hedgelayer

Droogs said:


> For us in the UK where we don't have particularly large humidity swings through the year and nearly all homes have central heating of some sort, the practical reality is that MDF/Ply are the best option for making most of the furniture items we need. Also the fact that we are increasingly aware of our ecological impact on our environment MDF faced with veneer gives us the best use of resources.
> As many of the things I normally make (when I am fit enough to work properly) also involve housing internal components that can and do generate a lot of very dry heat when being used, as much as I would love to make things "properly" with deal and as much solid wood and accents with veneer as I could, availability, cost, practicality and a desire for a livable profit mean that is just not possible. So the solution is to use MDF for the lower cost items and properly decent furniture grade ply for the top end.
> As I put a final veneer surface on nearly everything I make (either a solid field or a marquetry image) I just buy un-veneered MRMDF and if possible create a lipping of the wood the final veneer will be, usually 20mm deep, on each component part that is applied to the edge before the final finish veneer is put on and take the time to get the join as invisible as possible to prevent telegraphing of any kind and then once done, any edge detailing is put on. For ply I still buy the highest grade I can with the best face surface even though it won't be seen but makes a massive difference once the final veneer is applied. Each component made out of a man-made material is cut to size taking the lippings application into consideration and only becomes a completed part after the lipping is applied and worked. By this I mean the edge lipped part is treated as if it is a solid timber once the lip is on. This gives me the best stability factor and allows the use of traditional tools without too much wear on them that is normally caused when working sheet goods etc.
> 
> So MDF and Ply do not need to be featureless characterless material if used with a bit of aforethought. Of course my way of working means you need to do a lot of veneering yourself but hey the core material is much cheaper and you get the exact final effect you want by putting on your own veneer.
> 
> edit typos


I like what you say Droogs but I've never done any veneering. Have you got any tips/pointers as to how to get started on that ? (eg Veneer suppliers, method, tools, veneer press etc)


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## Jacob

Droogs said:


> ....... Also the fact that we are increasingly aware of our ecological impact on our environment MDF faced with veneer gives us the best use of resources.
> ........


Not really. MDF and Ply are not durable - things made with them are likely to end up as landfill or firewood quite quickly and hence increase our carbon footprint. Also energy is taken up manufacturing them. Burning or landfill degradation release CO2, formaldehydes from the glue, dust and ash into the atmosphere. IKEA worst in this respect - the lifespan of their products can be very short.
Whereas solid timber items last indefinitely, given good design/construction, reasonable care and maintenance, and they effectively sequester carbon for the duration.
A climate change policy should include something like the wartime utility standards where furniture was made to a high standard, to lengthen the life cycle and reduce material consumption. Now we have the added imperative; to sequester carbon.


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## Droogs

As do IKEA products @Jacob, it is human hubris that causes them to have a short lifespan. A bookcase made of a modern man-made material will outlive any wooden version in a modern home with central heating on in winter and off in summer. The massive difference in humidity (caused by this unnatural cycle) will cause stresses that will over a relatively short time-span cause the "true" wooden furntiture to fail. The amount and speed of cell shrinkage caused by CH is never fully negated in the natural material upon re-expansion when the CH is turned of thus leading to structural failure. Been there done that., had a beautiful bedroom suite hand made in the early 30's very high end Art Deco, moved from a house with 2 coal fires to one with central air CH and within 6 months the suite was quite literally only good for firewood. Yeah Yeah Jacob - I could have fixed it but the avaerage person can't. The chipboard and the mdf pieces of furniture coped with the move far more successfully. the production of mdf is not a massive producer of carbon as it uses plantation and recycled wood and is part of a cycle in which as wood is cut down it is replaced. the whole process uses atmospheric carbon or can do depending on who supplies the power. It need not use any newly release carbon in the system at all and actively has measures that help captre excess carbon by planting more trees than they take.

As to durability, my MIL is still using the bookcases and side tables she proudly bought in a certain blue and grey shop (the first in the country) in Warrington 33 years ago.


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## Jacob

Droogs said:


> As do IKEA products @Jacob, it is human hubris that causes them to have a short lifespan. A bookcase make of a modern man-made material will outlive any wooden version in a modern home with central heating on in winter and off in summer. The massive difference in humidity will cause stresses that will over a relatively short timespan cause the "true" wooden furntiture to fail. ......


Couldn't be wronger!
Trad furniture is largely designed with humidity/temperature variations in mind, which is why it lasts so well. 
Had to be in the old days of draughty rooms, steamy kitchens, open fires, icy rooms, single glazing, much wider extremes than modern interiors.
Every detail designed to take into account grain direction and potential movement, including joints left loose to allow movement; drawer runners loose fitted in solid sided cabinets, table tops fixed with buttons in slots, breadboard ends with just one fixed point and slotted holes for dowels, panels in frames loose, or glued on one long grain edge only, pegs through M&Ts fitted close to the stile to keep the joint tight, and so on.
I've got bits of my grandparents stuff over 100 years old including items which have never even needed repair or maintenance.
It can go wrong if some eagle eyed amateur decides to glue or screw in the drawer runners or drawer bottoms and then blame the furniture for the splits which follow.
Bin there dunnit - I split a 4' diameter round Georgian mahogany table top by 'cleverly' fixing the sub frame and taking no notice of the careful design details. It went off with a loud crack weeks later. Got it back together again and did it properly and its been OK for a few years now.


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## Droogs

Yes Jacob for a slow gradually changing cycle through the year where the average humidity in the UK through the year is 87%. Not for a modern cycle where the house can drop from a rough internal average of 60-70% to less than 30% in the coarse of 3 days and stay there for 5 months before rocketing back up. Cellular degredation and deminishing elacsticity of the woods cell wall due to such rapid changes means solid wood in the long term can not adapt fast enough or cope with those rapid extremes. The process is too fast in a modern home and just like in a kiln running too fast will lead to shakes and other failures.


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## Droogs

hedgelayer said:


> I like what you say Droogs but I've never done any veneering. Have you got any tips/pointers as to how to get started on that ? (eg Veneer suppliers, method, tools, veneer press etc)


I will try to put a small resource article together and get it up in the next couple of days


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## Jacob

Droogs said:


> Yes Jacob for a slow gradually changing cycle through the year where the average humidity in the UK through the year is 87%. Not for a modern cycle where the house can drop from a rough internal average of 60-70% to less than 30% in the coarse of 3 days and stay there for 5 months before rocketing back up. Cellular degredation and deminishing elacsticity of the woods cell wall due to such rapid changes means solid wood in the long term can not adapt fast enough or cope with those rapid extremes. The process is too fast in a modern home and just like in a kiln running too fast will lead to shakes and other failures.


You obviously don't remember the bad old days where you could wake up with thick ice on the windows which didn't melt until you had a roaring fire going for an hour or so, driven by a draught from under the door! Levels were much more extreme and rapidly changing back then, otherwise what would be the point of modern gently controlled heating, ventilation and insulation.


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## Droogs

Jacob those are the current good days for me. My house has half a floor and no CH only a woodstove as heating. The floor collapsed it all had to be replaced but worked stopped due to first lockdown and me being put into shielding. I wake up to beautiful Ice leaf grain crystals on my windows every morning at the moment and they only go once the woodstove heats ups. *Yes I have very quick temperature changes but not humidity changes*

rapid humidity changes are what kills wooden furniture not temperature changes (unless they reach 451F)


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## Jacob

Your _relative_ humidity is what counts and will be changing as fast as the room heats or cools.
Trad woodwork _is designed_ to cope with your environment! Short of actually being rained upon!
If it _kills_ wooden furniture how come so much of it survives?
Incidentally the loose drawer runner thing is something which puzzled me at first but was reminded of it in a thread a bit back where somebody had glued them in and split the sides of his chest of drawers. Can't find it now I'll have a search.
PS found it 1840's Scottish chest


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## Spectric

Hi all

Yes as much as I dislike MDF it has its uses, it is as cheap as chips and suits our modern way of living where people value cost and looks more than underlying quality and don't need it to last long enough to become a family heirloom. We all remember MFI, wall units that had to be proped up and doors that fell off and once in place could not be moved otherwise you just ended up with a mess.

The one big advantage of MDF furniture is that once you have had enough of it then with a simple push it returns to its flatpack state and is easily transported to the nearest recycling centre. MDF is ok for our workbench tops and jigs where it gets abused and then is easily replaced. 

Having used Birch ply it's only downside is cost, plus you need to edge it unless you like the exposed look. How many people here would continue to use MDF if Birch ply was only say 20% more expensive?


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## JBaz

Coming back to the 900mm wide bookcase, for a painted finish MDF (Moisture Resistant preferably) will do a good job provided the shelves are braced. 

For me 22mm is overkill. If it is yet to be bought, 18mm will be fine.

To cover the edges I use Tulip/Poplar fixed with biscuits or a loose tongue. Tulip has very few knots, works easily and has almost no visible grain when sanded. It takes paint very well too. If you make the edging slightly wider than the thickness of the MDF it can be sanded back flush. If you need to, fill the join with P38 car filler and sand that back. You _can_ use P38 to fill the edges, but an edging strip is better.

MDF has has very little resistance to sagging and books are heavy, so the shelves will need some help. I tend to make the front edge strip 30mm deep (still with Tulip, but any hard wood will work) and put a 50mm strip at the back protruding 32mm (for 18mm MDF) above the shelf. This will stop things on the shelf falling off the back as well.

To join the shelves to the sides I use biscuits. I'm sure dowels will work as well, but not screws as MDF will just split if you try to screw into the edge. It might be worth considering only permanently fixing some of the shelves and leaving others adjustable in height. 

For painting, spray it if you can. If not, thin the paint (I use Farrow and Ball Estate Eggshell, which is water based and gives an excellent finish) and apply more coats. Also, a good brush (I use Purdy) makes a world of difference and if you wash it with soap and water after each use* it will last a long time.

*Even if you use oil based paint, wash with soap and water after getting the paint off with solvent

Hope this helps.


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## recipio

If there is no back to the bookcase then you need absolutely rigid joints. If you are not into cutting dados then consider screwing the whole thing together using _confirmat _screws. They use a dedicated drill bit with a 10 mm head so can be plugged and painted over. They make unbreakable joints imo. Personally I hate painting over good solid wood so I would consider using blockboard which is the most rigid sheet board of all. It costs almost as much as 18 mm baltic ply but you are good for a few more projects out of one sheet.


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## TheTiddles

Anyone who considers MDF as only for disposable cheap furniture has been living under a considerable misunderstanding.

We used to have a desk in the show-room/office and people would occasionally come in and demand pieces “in solid wood... like this” gesturing at the desk, made from MDF.

Aidan


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## TheTiddles

I recently made a run of built in units, used turbo gold #8 screws into the side of cheap and nasty 19mm veneered MDF with no pilots driven in by impact driver. Not one single split.

Yes, I did several tests first.

Aidan


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## johnnyb

this post seems to have turned into a mdf v solid wood argument. v


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## robgul

johnnyb said:


> this post seems to have turned into a mdf v solid wood argument. v



... whatever happened to chipboard (and blockboard for that matter) ?


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## johnnyb

I used to use loads of blockboard when I could get it. is it still available.


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## boggy

Remenber that Jesus, a carpenter, did not use MDF, nor ply though I suppose he would have if it had been available


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## Droogs

i would love to do everything in solid but it is just not practical, economical nor ethical.

For the man in sandals ply was old hat even in his day having been invented at least 1500 years before he came along.


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## TheTiddles

Droogs said:


> i would love to do everything in solid but it is just not practical, economical nor ethical.
> 
> For the man in sandals ply was old hat even in his day having been invented at least 1500 years before he came along.



50 shekels if you can do a 4-way match in solid


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## James555

I appear to have started a debate....
FWIW I do like the stability of MDF, no knots, no breakout.
I'm sticking with 22mm MDF as I'm committed now.
A snag is that Festool domino 500's seem to be widely out of stock (I was about to buy one for this and future projects).
In light of this and comments above, I'm thinking of lipping the shelves front _and_ back with redwood (glue and biscuits) and fixing to the uprights with biscuits, glue and screws through the sides. I can fill the holes with with two-part filler. 
The shelf spans are actually 856mm after accounting for the 2x22mm uprights, so a little less.


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## robgul

johnnyb said:


> I used to use loads of blockboard when I could get it. is it still available.



It appears that it is Blockboard | 18mm - Builders Marketplace or Blockboard | Furniture Boards | Wood Panels | Hanson Plywood - of several suppliers I'm aware of. BUT the problem like most large sheet materials is delivery feasibility and cost thereof unless you can collect it.


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## Jacob

Droogs said:


> i would love to do everything in solid but it is just not practical, economical


Plenty of people use solid wood and find it practical and economical - from redwood through to exotics. It's a simple matter of choice.
I've used mdf (often found in skips) for bodging around the workshop but never for a client or item to sell. Confess to buying IKEA kitchen stuff too - feel guilty about that.


> nor ethical.


er - quite the opposite, and a very big subject - too early in the day for me!


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## Wood_womble

Perhaps consider a laminated pine stair stringer for the shelves, much stiffer than MDF.


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## Wood_womble

Wood_womble said:


> Perhaps consider a laminated pine stair stringer for the shelves, much stiffer than MDF, supplied planed & sanded.


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