# Brown trouser moment



## Karl (18 Apr 2010)

I knew the guard on my new Xcalibur table saw was rubbish, but I now know how rubbish






















I was cutting some 6mm mdf and somehow the guard has worked loose and fell onto the blade. This in turn pulled the riving knife onto the blade, and resulted in sparks and schrapnel flying everywhere.

The guard flew off and hit me on the arm






And I ended up with some bits of blade schrapnel in my neck!

Must get to work on a new guard and riving knife!

Cheers

Karl


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## wizer (18 Apr 2010)

Oopsy Daisy! Good job it missed your eyes! What was the gaurd made from? Looks like asbestos :lol:


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## jasonB (18 Apr 2010)

Is that another of your modified riving knives? with an open notch at the top its not surprising the crown guard came off. The crown guard should also not be able to tilt down to a point where it contacts the blade.

Jason


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## Digit (18 Apr 2010)

Very nasty indeed. But I would have to agree with Jason's comment on that.

Roy.


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## OPJ (18 Apr 2010)

...Is the blade alright? 

Seriously, glad to hear that your injuries weren't any worse!

I used to work with a guy who had a scar on his neck from where the riving knife had come lose and contacted the up-rising teeth! :? Though, to be fair, he was working with the crown guard removed and, from the few months I spent with him, I can only say that safe working practices weren't his speciality!! 

Are you certain the riving knife didn't work lose and contact the blade _before_ the crappy guard?


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## Karl (18 Apr 2010)

No, it's not my knife. It's the factory fitted one.


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## jasonB (18 Apr 2010)

Karl":1s5094de said:


> No, it's not my knife. It's the factory fitted one.



Now I know why they atre not CE marked :shock: 

Jason


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## Digit (18 Apr 2010)

Well if that slot is for the guard they need shooting!

Roy.


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## dannykaye (18 Apr 2010)

at this point I might be writing to the maker and complaining...


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## woodbloke (18 Apr 2010)

Karl - glad everything's good. A hot wash at 60deg C with a non-bio powder should sort out the trousers :lol: and maybe fit one those Axminster guards with the cantilever arm to the saw?..'bout £100, but might sort your problem - Rob


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## Mr Ed (18 Apr 2010)

Glad your injuries are not too bad Karl, that is a frightening experience I imagine.

Just so I understand, did the guard and riving knife stay together, but the knife pulled out of its mounting on the saw?

Ed


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## Mike.C (18 Apr 2010)

Jasonb wrote,



> Is that another of your modified riving knives? with an open notch at the top its not surprising the crown guard came off. The crown guard should also not be able to tilt down to a point where it contacts the blade.



Jasonb wrote,



> Now I know why they are not CE marked
> 
> Jason








To stop the crown guard coming off, riving knives are supposed to have this hook cut into them, so I cannot understand why Karl's saw does not have one.

Mind you Xcalibur's also have a extra long arbor which health and safety do not like. :roll: 

Karl did you keep the (£30 bargain) Axminster extended arm and crown guard that Rob mention's?






Cheers

Mike


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## jasonB (18 Apr 2010)

Looks like the guard came off the knife

That type of guard fixing MUST have a horizontal slot or enclosed hole. The plastic screw is tightened to give sufficient friction for the guard to be flipped upright for blade changing etc, it can then be pushed down until the nut/bolt nearer the front touches the top of the knife. This will keep the gaurd above the blade.

In your case any pressure on the front of the guard or vibration will make it pivot on the nut/bolt and make the rear fixing lift until it comes out of the open slot.

It's probably been covered before but how do they get away without CE marking?

Jason


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## Streepips (18 Apr 2010)

Seems more likely to me that the riving knife was loose in the first place and the weight of the guard plus vibrations caused it to fall on the blade.
As someone mentioned previously, the guard should have a generous overhang anyway so if it did swivel on the riving knife all it would contact with is the table top.


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## Karl (18 Apr 2010)

OPJ":1ga268mv said:


> ...Is the blade alright?
> 
> Are you certain the riving knife didn't work lose and contact the blade _before_ the crappy guard?



Blade is what is technically known as "fuc**d" :lol: Half the teeth are missing, and the other half have all been damaged. 

I don't think it was the riving knife coming loose first. There was a loud bang (guard hitting the blade, then hitting me!) and then a fountain of sparks - just like a Catherine Wheel. But I don't really know.



jasonB":1ga268mv said:


> Now I know why they atre not CE marked



In fairness, I was warned by various peeps on here about the standard riving knife and guard. It was on "the list" of things to be sorted out - I was trying to get this job done, and next week i've got some free time and was hoping to get it done. That'll teach me.



dannykaye":1ga268mv said:


> at this point I might be writing to the maker and complaining...



I bought the saw second hand, so don't think the manufacturer will be too interested in my problem.



woodbloke":1ga268mv said:


> Karl - glad everything's good. A hot wash at 60deg C with a non-bio powder should sort out the trousers Laughing and maybe fit one those Axminster guards with the cantilever arm to the saw?..'bout £100, but might sort your problem - Rob



Rob - i've given the Y fronts to the missus  

I've tried one of those Axminster guards, but it is too tight a fit in my small 'shop. I'm going to make the SUVA guard which Steve M has done. 



Mr Ed":1ga268mv said:


> Just so I understand, did the guard and riving knife stay together, but the knife pulled out of its mounting on the saw?



No, the guard detached (and hit me on the arm) and the knife stayed attached but had been dragged into contact with the blade (as shown in the pics). 

Now i've got to buy a new rip blade too. 

Cheers

Karl


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## Mr Ed (18 Apr 2010)

I just had a look at my saw to see if the same could happen, which I am pleased to say it could not.

The knife has the L shaped slot, as it should.

The other thing I notice though, is that even with the blade fully up, the front of the guard hits the table miles before it could contact the top of the blade. I had been finding the length of the guard a bit of a visual obstruction but I can now see its shape probably helps it be a safer tool.

Ed


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## jimi43 (18 Apr 2010)

All I can say Karl is that you are one VERY lucky guy!

Those teeth coming off at thousands of revs/minute could have done anything...you got away lightly IMHO and I hope the injuries you did get heal quickly.

I checked my Scheppach and as you can see...it too is L shaped:






I don't like the crown guard anyway and a Steve or SUVA one is the next project I think....

This is a bit of a wake-up call for me (us all?) so thanks for the pictures.

Something I won't be putting off now.

Jim


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## BradNaylor (18 Apr 2010)

I'd be having a quiet word with Mr Arrowsmith if I was you, Karl.

His policy of ignoring CE rules is going to bite him on the ass one day


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## MickCheese (18 Apr 2010)

I hope I am not going to regret asking this, maybe it is really obvious but I just cannot see it.

Is SUVA an acronym for something or a manufacturers name like hoover is to vacuum cleaners?

If it's an acronym I cannot work it out. :? 

Help

Mick


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## matt (18 Apr 2010)

Ooooh.... One day someone will invent a tablesaw where, somehow, the user is not working against the direction of the blade. Out of interest, why did you have the blade protruding so high for a 6mm thick cut?


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## Karl (18 Apr 2010)

matt":3t71aw2r said:


> Out of interest, why did you have the blade protruding so high for a 6mm thick cut?



Another fault of the guard and riving knife set-up. If you have the blade protruding 10mm, the riving knife is below the level of the table. So you have to increase the blade height to get the riving knife above the table. Then keep increasing until you can attach the guard. Then keep increasing until the 6mm piece passes under the guard.

In summary, the knife/guard system is a pile of [email protected]



Mike.C":3t71aw2r said:


> Karl did you keep the (£30 bargain) Axminster extended arm and crown guard that Rob mention's?



No - I sold it on to Trim The King. It's too big for my 'shop. Hence the reason that I need to make a better guarding system.



jasonB":3t71aw2r said:


> In your case any pressure on the front of the guard or vibration will make it pivot on the nut/bolt and make the rear fixing lift until it comes out of the open slot.
> 
> It's probably been covered before but how do they get away without CE marking?



I think that vibration has caused the guard to work loose and fall forward onto the blade.

No idea on the CE system. My understanding is that you can use a non-CE machine in a personal capacity but not in a commercial environment. But not sure why a manufacturer would release a machine onto the market which isn't CE certified.




BradNaylor":3t71aw2r said:


> I'd be having a quiet word with Mr Arrowsmith if I was you, Karl.
> 
> His policy of ignoring CE rules is going to bite him on the ass one day



I reckon he'd laugh his cock off and rattle on about "amateurs". 

If i'd bought the machine off him from new then it'd be a different matter. But I don't think he'd give a rats pineapple, seeing as I didn't buy it off him.


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## jimi43 (18 Apr 2010)

MickCheese":2418oha2 said:


> I hope I am not going to regret asking this, maybe it is really obvious but I just cannot see it.
> 
> Is SUVA an acronym for something or a manufacturers name like hoover is to vacuum cleaners?
> 
> ...



I believe it to be a company....

HERE is a reference

AND HERE

I first found one on my INCA table saw...it has SUVA written on it....I think it is a Swiss safety organisation.....







That one is beautifully designed!

Jim


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## matt (18 Apr 2010)

The guard seems to have two bolts - the one with the black handle and a nut and bolt. Yet the riving knife has 1 slot. Which fixing do you use in the slot?

Also, you say the riving knife is comes up after the blade but in the picture it looks much higher than the blade. Is the rise and fall not at the same rate as the blade?


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## TheTiddles (18 Apr 2010)

If somebody's selling anything without a CE mark in this country I'd be suprised, if they are, Trading Standards should be informed as it's illegal and dangerous

Aidan


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## Paul Chapman (18 Apr 2010)

Blimey, that was nasty, Karl :shock: Glad you weren't too badly hurt.

Take care.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Mike.C (18 Apr 2010)

TheTiddles":2uonnsbp said:


> If somebody's selling anything without a CE mark in this country I'd be suprised, if they are, Trading Standards should be informed as it's illegal and dangerous
> 
> Aidan



Re the dado/arbor part of their saw haven't Woodfords been doing it for years? http://www.woodfordwm.co.uk/acatalog/Table_Saws1.html
I maybe wrong but I am sure that I have read about this on the forum

Cheers

Mike


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## Jake (18 Apr 2010)

TheTiddles":2j0uktpt said:


> If somebody's selling anything without a CE mark in this country I'd be suprised, if they are, Trading Standards should be informed as it's illegal and dangerous



It was pretty clear a few years ago, I can't be bothered to check now, but their website had a section for these saws and then a different range of saws for professional use which boasted of their CE rating roll.

At the time, it was very h&s nancy boy police to give a rubbish about things like that on here. Probably still is.


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## chingerspy (18 Apr 2010)

Glad to hear you survived that one Karl. Could have been nastier than it was. It is definately worth considering a letter to the manufacturer (its still all their parts that caused the problem) and one to the goverment mentioning the unstamped sale - assuming new ones are still unstamped. With machinery this dangerous they may be interested and get someone onto it quickly.

I hope you can get it up and running again with better guard and knife soon and be able to carry on your work. Grab yourself a whiskey and have a sit down for now though!

Man I'm having second thoughts about using a tablesaw at all. I have the one I got from Bloonose but have only fired it up for 5 seconds. It made a racket and to be honest was a bit scarey seeing that blade whizz round. I love my SCMS and circular saws when I use them but I might shelve it and make room for a decent bandsaw instead.

I like handsawing stuff anyway, good exercise and I'm getting a lot better at it  The slope's expensive though!


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## andy king (18 Apr 2010)

Hi Karl,

glad you're OK!
As The Tiddles states, selling stuff in the UK without a CE certificate is illegal.
I spoke with someone from HSE a few years back regarding the CE regulations, and apparently, some smaller powertools can be self certificated, but tablesaws and other potentially hazardous machinery has to be regulated by an independant authority, and anything coming into, or made in the UK has to have a CE mark. I'm very surprised that they haven't been pulled up for it by now.
They may be hoping for the best because of the work needed and the time scale to get it legal if any big alterations are needed as there is a lot of work involved for a CE mark.
I remember speaking to Record Power when they were introducing a small table saw about that.
The amount of time and effort put in to ensure the saw was meeting the regulations for CE is massive.
I saw the paperwork and documentation for it and that was a good 2 inches or more thick.
Factor in the time schedule in getting the saw to meet the regulations when its an imported machine and a lot of work is needed to get things where they should be - and where it should be is a machine that is safe for anyone to use, not just professional woodworkers.
A major accident from a machine that doesn't conform, whether a hobby of pro user would have HSE looking for a prosecution from what I was told.

cheers,
Andy


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## Mike.C (18 Apr 2010)

I may have got things wrong, because when Philly first got his Woodword 10" Xcalibur he did a mini review in the Woodworker, and after just re-reading it he mentions that they are CE approved. Which is strange when you think that the lenght of arbor lets you fit dado head cutters.

Cheers

Mike


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## andy king (18 Apr 2010)

Mike.C":3sivthpu said:


> I may have got things wrong, because when Philly first got his Woodword 10" Xcalibur he did a mini review in the Woodworker, and after just re-reading it he mentions that they are CE approved. Which is strange when you think that the lenght of arbor lets you fit dado head cutters.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike



Hi Mike,

a friend of mine owns one and I looked at it for him when he had a problem. The only thing on it that bore a CE mark was the switchbox, the machine itself, including the documentation had no mark at all.
I looked at a bigger model back in issue 146, and as Jake has said, that one, aimed for the pro market (it was around £2000 back then) was CE marked.
I commented on it in my original review, including my own concerns on how they got around the legislation for extended arbors etc, but that was cut from the review by Pete Martin as he thought it irrelevant... :roll:

cheers,
Andy


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## Mike.C (18 Apr 2010)

andy king":jvglmo9z said:


> Mike.C":jvglmo9z said:
> 
> 
> > I may have got things wrong, because when Philly first got his Woodword 10" Xcalibur he did a mini review in the Woodworker, and after just re-reading it he mentions that they are CE approved. Which is strange when you think that the lenght of arbor lets you fit dado head cutters.
> ...



Hi Andy,

Excuse my french but that is utter rubbish. How can an editor (he was an editor wasn't he?) call the safety of his readers irrelevant??? :evil: And for the company to try and con it's customers by just having the switch box covered by the CE mark is down right scandalous :evil: Think about it if someone like me who knows pipper all about CE marks or health and safety bought a saw that had a CE mark on one thing, I would automatically think that the whole saw was covered. And I would not think it unreasonable for others to think the same.

Cheers

Mike


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## andy king (18 Apr 2010)

> Excuse my french but that is utter rubbish. How can an editor (he was an editor wasn't he?) call the safety of his readers irrelevant??? :evil: And for the company to try and con it's customers by just having the switch box covered by the CE mark is down right scandalous :evil: Think about it if someone like me who knows pipper all about CE marks or health and safety bought a saw that had a CE mark on one thing, I would automatically think that the whole saw was covered. And I would not think it unreasonable for others to think the same.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike


Hi Mike,

I wasn't happy with it myself when I read it...
Pete was the Deputy Editor and he subbed all my work, but I never got to read the final subbed versions of any of my reviews until they were in print :evil: 
Still, that was back then... 
With regards to the CE on the switchbox, I believe that was because the box used was one from a manufacturer or importer in the UK who did the right thing and had their stuff regulated.
I'm assuming that the saws are brought in and the NVR's fitted here, hence the box having the CE mark.


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## Ironballs (18 Apr 2010)

Blimey, glad you're alright Karl. At least it proved one thing, your guard would take a bit of abuse before disintegrating, giving you that split second should you slip and fall on your blade.

Guess that blade is destined for a place on the shop wall :shock:


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## ByronBlack (19 Apr 2010)

Glad you got away without any serious injury. This kind of thing sums up my reasoning for going galoot - I was getting more and more fed up with working on/maintaining/making safe machinery. For me personally, it's just not worth it. Commercial work is obviously a different matter, but as a hobbyist I feel the extra work with hand-tools is worth the peace of mind.


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## Harbo (19 Apr 2010)

I have just checked on my Deft (which has an unusual crown guard design) - the guard is fastened by a bolt going through a hole in the riving knife and not a slot.

Glad you were not badly hurt.

Rod


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## BradNaylor (19 Apr 2010)

Karl":13htrb7s said:


> In summary, the knife/guard system is a pile of [email protected]
> 
> Hence the reason that I need to make a better guarding system.



I'd just buy a decent guard as a spare part from a reputable machinery importer (the make doesn't matter) and then get a new riving knife made to fit your saw by a local metalworker. Drill/machine the knife to accept and hold the guard safely and Bob's your uncle.


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## Einari Rystykaemmen (19 Apr 2010)

Wow! I'm glad you get away from it without serious injury! You're lucky guy... :shock: 

I'm surprised that it's leagal to sell anything without CE approvement in EU area... Especially power tools or anything electric powered machines.

Personally I would contact manufacturer/reseller about this issue and make some serious accusitions... There is no excuse about this kind of serious safety issue.


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## devonwoody (19 Apr 2010)

I suppose you put your underwear in the dust sack and didn't take them indoors. :wink: 

Serious, pleased to hear that injuries were no worse.

I've noticed the riving knife on my Axminster T/S has sometimes crept up on the blade, anyone ever had a riving knife not made of steel?


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## Philly (19 Apr 2010)

Just been looking at my riving knife - it seems like Karl has chopped his down, which is why the accident took place.
Glad you weren't hurt - hope your underpants are salvageable.
Best regards
Philly


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## BradNaylor (19 Apr 2010)

andy king":d77pxep9 said:


> Hi Karl,
> 
> glad you're OK!
> *As The Tiddles states, selling stuff in the UK without a CE certificate is illegal.*
> ...



Woodford has taken the stance for years that as their machines are sold for hobby use only they do not need to be CE marked. This did not stop Roy Arrowsmith selling me a drum sander some years ago in the full knowledge that I ran a professional workshop. Unquestionably he'd have sold me a table saw too if I had wanted one.

There was a CE sticker on the switch box. It is only when I sold the machine to a dealer that I found out that this related to the switch only!

If I had had an accident like this I would be reporting it to HSE.

Cheers
Brad

PS The drum sander was a piece of dung, too!


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## devonwoody (19 Apr 2010)

However I assume the riving knife can drift on to a blade even with a notch?


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## Karl (19 Apr 2010)

Philly":e31osgkp said:


> Just been looking at my riving knife - it seems like Karl has chopped his down, which is why the accident took place.
> Glad you weren't hurt - hope your underpants are salvageable.
> Best regards
> Philly



I haven't touched the riving knife, but that doesn't mean that the guy I bought it from hadn't. I don't have an original manual, so don't know whether it has been modified by the previous user. 

I'll have a look at your review of the 10" on your site and compare it to mine.

Cheers

Karl


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## Steve Maskery (19 Apr 2010)

Karl
Really sorry to hear of your woes. Whilst I love the build quality of the X, the riving knife and guard arrangement are, well, it's all been said.

I have no regrets about modifying mine to take a following riving knife. I occasionally have to alter the height, as it is not a parallel movement, but I only have to do it for very shallow or very deep cuts. Anything mid-range is fine. And my SUVA-style guard is easy to use and gives me good protection.

I'm thinking of making another version, where the cover is pivoted in two places rather than just a the back, that way it will stay level, even with thick workpieces.

BTW, MickCheese was asking about the SUVA acronym, it is the Swiss safety insurance organisation. If a machine is approved by SUVA, then insurance companies will insure its use. What we call a SUVA guard is one such approved piece of kit.
More here.

Cheers
Steve


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## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2010)

Streepips":2194o0p1 said:


> Seems more likely to me that the riving knife was loose in the first place and the weight of the guard plus vibrations caused it to fall on the blade.
> As someone mentioned previously, the guard should have a generous overhang anyway so if it did swivel on the riving knife all it would contact with is the table top.



Karl, 

I'm not suggesting any of this was your fault. My old Coronet has a similar system knife and guard. The guard and/or knife could work loose, so I have gotten into the habit of making sure everything is tight and right before I use the saw. The Coronet guard couldn't fly off as it's in a closed slot. To change blades I remove the lot, but of course, I unplug the machine first! 

Karl, I am sincerely relieved to know you got away with this one. It could easily have been horrific. Do I sense the purchase of a full-face shield coming on? 

All the best
John


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## Philly (19 Apr 2010)

Karl
Here's the original knife and guard - the knife is slotted to allow you to alter the guard for height, but the slot is blind so the guard cannot come off. It is mounted at the rear so would be knock up (away) from the blade if the knife slipped - still a pant-filler, but no bruise on the shoulder.
There should be two bolts with split washers to hold the knife in place.
Hope this helps,
Philly


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## Karl (19 Apr 2010)

Thanks Phil. It is clear that the knife which came with my saw had been chopped down by the previous owner. 

How do you find the original knife/guard in use?

Cheers

Karl


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## chingerspy (19 Apr 2010)

Jesus that knife is very different from the modded one you showed. I'd have a quiet word in the sellers shell-like now too.


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## Philly (19 Apr 2010)

Karl
Its fine for ripping, etc, but stinks when it comes to dust extraction.
Best regards
Philly


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## Dibs-h (19 Apr 2010)

Saw the pictures and thought Sh*t man! But you've already had that moment :wink:

Thankfully all's well except for the odd bruise.


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## TrimTheKing (19 Apr 2010)

Christ on a bike!!!

Glad you're okay mate, bet that one had the nerves tingling for a little while after... :shock:


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## Mike.C (19 Apr 2010)

Karl if I remember correctly you bought the machine from a business that was closing down? If this is the case, and this _*professional*_ purchased the saw new, then even under Roy Arrowsmith's dubious Pro/Diy thinking, Woodfords have sold it illegally to a professional.

I'm glad that your ok, because that could have ended up very, very differently.

EDIT I have just looked at the Woodford website and it appears that they do not sell Professional Xcalibur's (Sicar is their Pro range). But I am sure they did at one time didn't they?

Cheers

Mike


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## porker (19 Apr 2010)

Hi, this is my first post although I have been lurking for a few months and got some great advice from this forum. 

My comments are about the whole CE marking debate on this thread. I used to be involved in the whole CE marking thing when it came in in the early '90's when I was an engineer designing industrial pumps. Now I will bow to someone who is more up to date than me and worked on saws (because I know there are special rules for this type of equipment) but these are the aspects that I remember.

No machinery can be sold in the EU without the CE mark after I think around 1993. To do so is illegal. I think the whole hobby/ professional debate is a red herring. As far as I know there is no distinction in the legislation that I have ever seen.

CE marking is usually a self certification exercise. Manufacturers (or importers) may choose to get their products tested by an external body but I know this is not required on most stuff I have worked on (pumps and now mobile phones). Essentially the onus is on the manufacturer to make sure the product meets all the legislation and directives. 

I know when it all came in there were some manufacturers that simply marked their products without doing anything because they felt that the legislation would have no teeth (and my experience is that they are reactive only after a problem).

Of course nobody can legislate over someone modifying a component as looks the case this time.

Interested if anyone knows more on this than me as its been a long time...


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## andy king (19 Apr 2010)

porker":2ina7g3m said:


> No machinery can be sold in the EU without the CE mark after I think around 1993. To do so is illegal. I think the whole hobby/ professional debate is a red herring. As far as I know there is no distinction in the legislation that I have ever seen.
> 
> CE marking is usually a self certification exercise. Manufacturers (or importers) may choose to get their products tested by an external body but I know this is not required on most stuff I have worked on (pumps and now mobile phones). Essentially the onus is on the manufacturer to make sure the product meets all the legislation and directives.
> 
> Interested if anyone knows more on this than me as its been a long time...



Hi Porker,

welcome to the forum!
Although I'm no authority on this, the HSE guy I spoke with a few years back told me that there is some self certification allowed, normally for smaller hand held powertools (other hand tools as well as stuff outside the woodworking industry as well I would imagine) but in the case of machinery where there is a high risk factor such as table saws, spindle moulders etc, they have to be tested by a recognised external testing facility.
Unless things have changed since then, I would say it's still the case.

cheers,
Andy


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## porker (19 Apr 2010)

Hi Andy,

Of course you are right.....

Circular saws are covered in the Machinery Directive and must have a conformity assessment by an independent notified body (INB).


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## wcndave (27 Oct 2011)

Sorry to waken an old post, but this has got me thinking.

On my TS as the OP said, to cut 5mm you have to raise the blade enough that the piece passes under the mounting for the guard. Also if you cut anything narrower than the guard it gets in the way, and finally if you hold pieces in jigs to cut them the guard gets in the way.

For these reasons it was such a PITA that I removed my guard and left it off. Is this a really bad idea? I have had no problems for 3 yrs and most used piece of kit, but it only takes once... Of course I leave the Irving knife on.

Apart from dust extraction and "putting your hand down on the blade", what is the purpose of the guard?

If it were to stop the bland flying off and into your face, I would be worried about why the blade could come off!

Accidentally getting your fingers into the blade from the side seems to increase with a guard as it reduces visibility.

I may be being naive here, however I always work alone, and very carefully, but should I put my guard back? Even thoug I sometimes feel it makes it more dangerous...


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## heimlaga (27 Oct 2011)

My personal opinion is that a blade guard fits on a riving knife like eye glasses on a moose.

I find the blade guard worth the fuss involved since it has already saved me a finger or two and I am only 30. However I prefere the guard to be suspended from above from some kind of arch bolted to the back of the saw table.


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## Steve Maskery (27 Oct 2011)

wcndave":9s3fr374 said:


> if you cut anything narrower than the guard it gets in the way, and finally if you hold pieces in jigs to cut them the guard gets in the way.


Then you are using the wrong sort of guard. The guard that comes with the saw is almost certainly intended for ripping and only for ripping. You need a range of different guards for different applications.




wcndave":9s3fr374 said:


> For these reasons it was such a PITA that I removed my guard and left it off. Is this a really bad idea? I have had no problems for 3 yrs and most used piece of kit, but it only takes once... Of course I leave the Irving knife on.


In the USA alone there are 100 admission to A&E for TS-related accident every single day. most of them lacerations and amputations. Watch the testimonials on the SawStop site. Theya re experienced guys who had been doing that with no problems for years and years. But then that once happened.
I think you have answered your own question.



wcndave":9s3fr374 said:


> Accidentally getting your fingers into the blade from the side seems to increase with a guard as it reduces visibility.


Your fingers should never get to the side of the blade!



wcndave":9s3fr374 said:


> I may be being naive here, however I always work alone, and very carefully, but should I put my guard back? Even though I sometimes feel it makes it more dangerous...


Please put it back. Make some push-sticks. Make a kick-stop. Make a range of different guards so that you can see what's happening, you keep in control, you are not prevented from making the cut, you are protected from injury and you don't spend months in physio instead of your workshop.

There are good design for all sorts of safety accessories on my DVD WE8. 
Sorry to sound harsh, but you really are taking unnecessary risks.
Regards
Steve


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## Benchwayze (27 Oct 2011)

Dave, 

Do yourself a favour and Google; Malcolm Pipes. 

Read what a professional cabinetmaker has to say about safety. (Malcolm served his 'time' with Robert Thompson, ('The Mouse-Man'), before setting up in business himself, so I would say he was experienced. 
Regards
John


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## wcndave (27 Oct 2011)

Not at all Steve, I want it as candid as it gets ;-)

I am aware that the TS can be dangerous, and I treat it with great respect. I am sure there are lots of TS accidents, however I am interested in what accident the guard actually prevents. Other than leaning on a still running blade whilst chatting with my mates, I struggle to see what situation. I am curious as i'd like to know what to watch out for when not using, as well as seeing the reasons for using...

Not sure how your fingers can not be to the side, when you cross cut, holding a workpiece your hands pass by each side, and the smaller the piece the close they get. I was making a model recently and had ripped about 4m of 6mm ply to 2" strips. then needed to crosscut to width, varying from 2" to 12" and for the small cuts i had a jig, and for others i guess my fingers were up to 2" from the blade, however i was extremely careful and had the blade ad low as possible. with the guard i still need to push the piece past, however need the blade about 30mm above table, instead of 6mm!

I do use push sticks, not sure what a kick stop is, sure there is a DVD set somewhere that will tell me ;-)
If i have to make a guard for every different cut i would spend my life doing that, and I need a TS to make the guards...

perhaps Pros tend to get blasé as they do it all day?

Here is a jig i use for cutting tenons, although I do tenons another way now, i still use this for making similar cuts. I cannot see how i can use my guard with this for example.






As you can see i have built it to keep my hands away from blade, and workpiece steady, so i am fairly safety minded.

I suppose if I had it on some kind of spring above, so i could pull down when needed, and simply let go when it's in the way, however my shop won't allow for that.... problem with fixing to back of table is that the fixing get's in the way...

I have long been considering your DVDs so maybe they would give me some inspiration as to how the guard can not get in the way, let's see what santa brings ;-)


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## Steve Maskery (27 Oct 2011)

Dave
I'm glade you have taken it in the spirit in which is was intended.
Re your tenon jig. You can't use your existing guard with a jig like that. I also have a tenon jig that rides on my fence (but mine's better than your-ors, na, na, na-na, na) and it is guarded before the cut, during the cut and at the end of the cut, when my hand is furthest forward and most vulnerable.
You don't needs lots of different guards, just two or three. I have a SUVA-style guard and a stand-alone guard that I use for 99% of my work. You could make them both in a morning.
As regards cross-cutting. Yes, I agree that in that case your hands will be alongside the blade - I had ripping in mind. But in that case, it is even more important that you hands cannot accidentally contact the blade. Remeber, all TS cuts are accidental, no-one ever did it deliberately.
If I were you I'd be a Very Good Boy for the next few weeks 
S


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## wcndave (27 Oct 2011)

Benchwayze":2igir2tf said:


> Dave,
> Read what a professional cabinetmaker has to say about safety. (Malcolm served his 'time' with Robert Thompson, ('The Mouse-Man'), before setting up in business himself, so I would say he was experienced.



Oh, don't get me wrong I am very much in favour of safety, and i want to keep all my appendages, even those not used any more!

I would never remove my riving knife, i would never not wear my safety goggles (and earphones), I never stand behind the line of the blade etc.... however your link shows that EVEN a professional, who must have actually had a guard on (to comply as a business) had an accident. so I am curious about what the guard prevents against... I am not denying it does protect you...

One other thing i do, is lock my door when using machinery, and i have told all my family / friends that if they hear something running, they should not attempt to enter. I think distraction along with not thinking about safety are probably the two biggest causes of accidents.

On the other hand if i was in the states where riving knives are not standard, I may not have been aware of the risks, so if there is something similar, like "it's possible for a tooth to fly off the blade, and the guard stops this passing through you", then i would be all ears!

BTW: have you ever seen "country folk" chopping branches on a big crude table saw, here there is one in every household, no riving knife, the pieces are left on the table to vibrate back in the back of the blade, the wood held "in the air" as it goes through... makes me shiver every time, however 500 people doing it here and no problems for 50 years... I did try doing it properly one time, however had got through about 1 cubic meter in a day, and everyone else was finished with their 10m3, so i left 'em to do it their way - so feel like i am the H&S evangelist here...


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## Steve Maskery (27 Oct 2011)




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## wcndave (27 Oct 2011)

(Here being the mountains of Italy...)


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## heimlaga (27 Oct 2011)

If yuor table saw stands in one place all the way you could suspend the guard from the ceiling or from some suitable beam or you could make an vererhead arm fastened to a wall. If you need an easy way to move the fastening point you could make a telescopic arm from two square section pipes inside each other.


The possibilities are endeless if you have an angle grinder and a welder. If you aren't familar with metalworking maybe you know somebody who would do the metalwork and barter with some woodwork.


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## wcndave (27 Oct 2011)

Love to... however i have some challenges...























However I am trying to build a house, and it is planned so far to have a 50 sq m workshop. I would have that framed inside with 2x4 to allow behind wall / under floor wiring / DX and to enable me to fix things to walls / ceiling / floor better... so I think then i could manage it.

I have been looking at metalwork, as I go to a knife hammering weekend annually (my avatar to left is me on an anvil), and I made a Damascus blade, which worked out really really nicely, and I finished the handle in wood of course ;-)

However i didn't get the hang of the welder, couldn't see what i was doing, and then when you touch, it was always in wrong place and got stuck, so i had a very very hot rod attached to something completely random (but metal and grounded). If there's an easier way of welding, i am up for it, or will just bite the bullet and get some practice. There's too much to DO in this life!!!!


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## Allylearm (27 Oct 2011)

Accidents like the poor chap losing his hand seem to fall in to the following categories of lack of attention/distraction, doing something your machine is not designed to do, lack of maintenance/upkeep or over familiarity so becoming unsafe in operation. In this case it seems the purchased saw was bought faulty and not to spec of CE regs.

Guards are there to prevent appendages getting trapped or lacerated or tell you keep fingers/hands away from cutting surface if setup correctly. One of the greatest errors is speed of operator and not letting the tool/machine work at its pace or taking time ot adjust guards. I have also come across accidents not caused by the user but more often than not someone has changed the machine from doing or not operating in a manner it is designed for. To prevent cutting injuries, if your appendages ain't in the vicinity of the blade you do not get cut. Better a push stick or scrap piece of wood to clear debris than your finger. I watch Norm going on about glasses for safety and quite happy remove riving knife and crown guard/nose guard for photographic reasons, do we need to see the blade cut or is it more to do with his machine will not do what he wants with them fitted like that tenon jig of his, handy as it is the blade is uncovered then he proceed's to go over the unguarded blade. I also despair watching people push over planer cutters, I always step over so no slip can occur and hand digits go into open cutter. 

As I work in a volume production I like my machinery to suit what I am doing as I have a duty of care for myself and for all who work with me, I want to manufacture quickly but also safely. If I tenon I have a Single End Tenoner/Crosscut/Bandsaw to choose from. If I cut panels I have a Beam Saw/Panel or dimesion Saw/CNC Router nesting/Rip saw and guide by hand, what I mean is you can plan production with varied machinery that will do the job you want both speedily and safely without retorting to removing safety devices, yes it is also dependant on what you have available. You then must have to be more constructive and better planning in operation and operate that your safety is paramount. You also need some very good jigs and this is a art that I have seen of varied hues from damn clever to damn am glad I aint doing it. Watching TV does not help also when you see unsafe practices and must give the hobbyist/amateur the wrong end of the stick as they take this is acceptable. In the end it is the operator experience or ability that gets them by and even then a slight drop in concentration or ill timed act and you loose a finger tip no matter the experience so vigilance is "never let it slip".


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## wcndave (27 Oct 2011)

So I had a quick play this evening, and found a few things that contributed to removing the guard. Again I am not saying there are not good reasons for having it there, however if you are careful I still can't quite see what it really does... I am of course, not happy to be proven wrong, unless it's after I have put it on ;-)

I guess I would be interested in any practical tips to overcome these difficulties.

Here is a cut ready to go. I want to get this very accurate, so will cut, then use the micro adjuster to go .1 of a mm closer until happy.

With guard on, I really feel I cannot see where I am cutting.






When I take the guard off, you see how high the blade has to be to fit the guard.






Now with no guard for the cut, I can put the blade much lower, and really see what I am doing.






Another example, I use this quick made up fence to cut pieces too small to go on mitre guage and where I want no break out.






This is quick to replace and effective. However won't work with guard. I feel I'd have to make a serious jig to achieve the same thing with guard in place.

Also, I know the lighting is not great, however even with more from left, you cannot see where the cut is.
I suppose a clear guard helps, however Perspex still tends to distort the view.

I feel I may need to call on those Santa services after all. Steve, do you dress up and everything?


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## Steve Maskery (27 Oct 2011)

Dressing up is extra.
S


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## Benchwayze (27 Oct 2011)

Dave, 

If you want to make repeated accurate cross-cuts to length, use the fence in conjunction with the blade. Set your measurement with the blade stationary. Use a block on the fence to measure from, so offcuts don't get trapped between blade and fence, and won't get thrown back at you. Put a stop on the other end of your mitre guide, and you can then cut away, happy in the knowledge that every piece will be cut dead-on, and to the right length. No need to remove the guard, or even see a line. If you want to work housings, tenons, use the router instead. Then you don't need an unguarded saw. 

Please heed the warnings. I can't emphasise it any more. Now I will leave it to your own imagination. 
Regards
John


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## wcndave (27 Oct 2011)

My imagination is bad enough. For repeated cuts I agree, however here I had to make about 200 cuts, none were the same and all had to be within 0.1mm precision.

I can't really see how in this case having the guard removed is dangerous. If I am doing cabinets or something then my hands are miles away anyway. 

I am just curious that no one has given a specific danger.

It seems my biggest risk is that I might see Steve in a Santa outfit!

Kick back is bad, so use a riving knife. Trapping is bad so don't use a long fence for a short piece. Use jigs to keep fingers away for small pieces. Don't rip wood that is too thick from top then bottom as blade can get stuck in the middle. ( I use bs for that now). Be careful, be respectful, be aware, don't be afraid... Can't see why with all is a missing guard is so bad. 

I am happy to see the light, however all I am getting is flamethrowers...to be frank I get fingers much closer in a router table and that makes me far more nervous then the table saw, as it pulls things across table, whereas TS pulls the wood down onto the table.

I am not short on emphasis, just short on the science / empirical evidence.

Again I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong, I just can't see the wood for the guard...


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## Allylearm (28 Oct 2011)

Benchwayze":19i23rbw said:


> Dave,
> 
> If you want to make repeated accurate cross-cuts to length, use the fence in conjunction with the blade. Set your measurement with the blade stationary. Use a block on the fence to measure from, so offcuts don't get trapped between blade and fence, and won't get thrown back at you. Put a stop on the other end of your mitre guide, and you can then cut away, happy in the knowledge that every piece will be cut dead-on, and to the right length. No need to remove the guard, or even see a line. If you want to work housings, tenons, use the router instead. Then you don't need an unguarded saw.
> 
> ...



To support John good advice I do not need to see the cut after setting up the machine correctly. Take Crosscutting on a pull over crosscut. You cannot see the cut, in my case as I am right handed and the cut is masked with the motor body, you would need to cant your head or go lower to see this as my stops are on the left of saw. So when setup to depth and length of stop after measuring sample cut, why do you need to see the cut progression plus my left hand is on the timber (supporting keeping it against back fence) in full view and away from blade, and I let the blade operate at a safe speed to let the blade do its work not be speedy gonzalas and try to get the saw to choke, I have witnessed operators do this and Joiners at that. Same principle with Dimension/rip saw, the only occasion I would like to see my cut is on scribes or stopped cut. On scribing with practice I did know where my cut was through practice with your saw (in some cases use two push sticks) as seeing the rip through nose guard was impossible at safe working height which prevents fingers going past guard. To remedy this manufacturers started putting in place see through guards. For stop cutting a mark or tape on table bed showing where the cut is to stop, suffices with the circumference of blade allowed for.

The riving knife is to stop the timber closing on the blade and happens when timber grain twists it is also a fixing point for Crown guard unless you have the more modern suspended guard with rollover (limted function) abilty (good kit have it on a small panel saw my assemblers use), the closing of saw kerf causes the kickback. A way to prevent this is to wedge the gap open after it passes the riving knife. On cuts the kickback can be so severe to throw the timber back on the operator feeding the saw, the person tailing cannot keep it on the table top and the person pushing has it riving up so to speak, scary first time it happens (brown trousers). Again the Crown and nose guard should prevent full throw back if correctly setup when the person pushes eases back and stops pushing, correct setup to explain is that the nose guard should not be no more than would let your finger under so is a barrier, if I remember right from H&S it is 4/5mm, but a good rule is not to let your digit through as with all guarding. I am lucky that I do not rip cuts anymore in the shop and have a resaw with motorised feed or Beam saw it, due to its different method of cutting and operation I have never seen kickback plus you have smaller saw kerfs depending on blade in operation (Resaw) while rip saws have larger kerfs on average reaching 6mm in some blades, get more out your timber split from a resaw/bandsaw and its quicker/accurate with a motorised feed. My latest Beam saw comes with a laser light so makes straight edging a dawdle before this I used chalk lines and good guess work where the blade was popping through on the beam as you have no line up marks due to saw carraige (again constant operation you get to know where to position it). I never operated a straight line edger in any of the workshops I worked at. But hydraulic clamping (Beamsaw) makes this a very safe machine to operate and with modern CNC is a big evolution from my first Gibens I operated back in mid 80's. I was demonstrated a Martins Panel saw that came with hydraulics on the sliding table and was to keep the materials firmly in position as you pushed, our sister comany bought one and damn fine piece of kit it is. Manual handling is a issue (I get lower back probs myself) and can now be assisted in industrial environments with Pneumatic suction cups/lifters, great kit and lets one of my oldest operators use the Beam without heavy lifting on his own and I save on labour as a single man can still operate. 

In a nutshell while managing Joinery workshops since 1989 keeping guards in place and setup I have never had a accident on my saws ecept for skelves and dust getting in operators eye. I class the following equipment my most dangerous and no particular order and must be handled correctly. 

1. Bandsaw
2. Crosscut/Chop
3. Spindle (very unforgiven if not setup even blades projection and bolting in can be dangerous if done sloppy)


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## sometimewoodworker (28 Oct 2011)

wcndave":1sfck51w said:


> My imagination is bad enough. For repeated cuts I agree, however here I had to make about 200 cuts, none were the same and all had to be within 0.1mm precision.
> 
> I can't really see how in this case having the guard removed is dangerous. If I am doing cabinets or something then my hands are miles away anyway.
> 
> ...


I think that the problem is that you want to justify a choice to remove a guard. Guards are in their to prevent accidents causing injury and many accidents happen through a sequence of actions that are specific to that one accident.

ie. a rabid/wild cat wanders into your shop, you tread on it, it yaols and scratches you, throws you off ballance and to steady yourself you put out a hand that hits the guard on your spinning blade ( or cut your hand off because you had no guard). the possibilites are endless.

Should you have a guard to protect against rabid/wild cats, *no*. should you have a guard to protect you against accidents? *Too bl***y true you should*. Can it be in place 100% of the time, probably not. Is that any possible justification for not having a guard whenever possible, *hell no*.

If you find you are making many cuts without a guard in place then you need to find a better way. If you can't find a better way, find a better tool.

The cuts you showed could have easly been guarded on a crosscut sled.

Think "how can I guard" not "why should I guard"


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## studders (28 Oct 2011)

sometimewoodworker":1o7x6hfd said:


> should you have a guard to protect you against accidents? *Too bl***y true you should*. Can it be in place 100% of the time, probably not. Is that any possible justification for not having a guard whenever possible, *hell no*.



Exactly right. I can only think of one occasion where I had no choice, that I could think of at the time, but to remove the guard in order to make the cut I wanted to; seeing the unguarded blade whizzing around made me nervous as hell just doing that one cut. No way would I not have a guard as a matter of course, in fact I've gone further and built an overhead guard separate from the riving knife, there are few cuts I can think of that I cannot now do with the guard in place.
Accidents are just that, you cannot generally forsee when or how you might make contact with the blade, you might not even be using the saw yet still get a very nasty cut on an exposed, stationary blade.


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## Benchwayze (28 Oct 2011)

Dave, 
You say your fingers come close to a router cutter, when using a router table. This is true, but I didn't mention a router table. I don't have one. Routers were not really designed to be used upside down. Any really big shop has overhead routers and hand-held routers. I don't have room for a proper O/H router, so I use my routers only by hand with the occasional (very occasional) jig. I can always cut housings by hand of course. 

As others have said, you shouldn't try to justify removing the guard. Set up properly, there is no need, nor any requirement to see a line. Studders is right too. I cut myself changing blades. I dropped the blade, and instinctively tried to catch it. That was when I bought a pair of leather gloves!

I think we are all trying to get you to appreciate the risk you are taking. But the words ' horses, water and drink' come to mind. There's also an old song called - 'It Can Happen to You'

I hope it doesn't. 
Regards
John


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## devonwoody (28 Oct 2011)

My sled has a perspex guard front to back and a trap on the back end of the fence.

Twice in five years there as been a small chip of timber fly on to the guard and I was glad it was there. (the timber must have had some deformity) so I would say eyes are even more important than fingers.


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## Sawyer (28 Oct 2011)

Benchwayze":zx1rm55e said:


> Dave,
> 
> Do yourself a favour and Google; Malcolm Pipes.
> 
> ...


Just done so. Urghh! A salutary lesson that even the most experienced (48 years) can have a serious accident from a split second's inattention. No matter how experienced and confident you feel, never, ever be complacent with wood machines.

Anybody still wondering what good a crown guard does? Once heard of a bloke working late at night, who had a blackout and fell on to his saw table. First thing to touch the unguarded blade was his forehead. Found the next morning still in that position (dead of course) with the saw still running and a stripe of blood along wall, floor and ceiling in line with the saw blade.
The most horrible accident I've ever heard of.

If you can't do a job with guards in place - time to think of another method of doing it.


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## wcndave (28 Oct 2011)

Interesting conversation so far, although you may all just think I am being a muppet..

I am happy to be led/shown and to drink/change, however I do like to see what the context is. For example putting “contents hot” on a coffee to prevent being sued is, I’m sure we all agree, OTT.

I have seen demos of kickback, and know that a riving knife is definitely not OTT.

I don’t think I am looking for a reason to “not put the guard there”, I am considering the cost in terms of hours, vs risk / impact.

In my job (IT) we do a risk analysis, looking at the likelihood, impact and cost to mitigate together.

Now, the impact in this case, losing a finger, or painting the wall with a red stripe, means that the likelihood has to only be quite low, and the cost to mitigate can be quite high, before you say it’s not worth it – I am on board with that.

However the cases that I have so far from the thread are:
-	Wild cat
-	Distraction (M Pipes)
-	Blackout
-	Timber chips flying
-	Dropping the blade and catching it

We also have one case where the guard itself was the cause of the accident. (OP)

So Wild cat, well low likelihood ;-) however it’s the same as distraction. Distraction is very high likelihood so in my opinion requires addressing, however cost of mitigation is very low: lock the door.

Blackout… well I could do that holding a CC, or using Router Table, so likelihood is very low, and cost to mitigate is very high, so I think I leave that one for now

Chips flying, cost to mitigate low, wear goggles

Dropping the blade, not helped by a guard. I have got quite good at not catching things, even with my foot!

Look at what I do most, which is almost all marked (not measured) cuts, of non-repeated lengths. The impact of the guard (the cost) is quite high.

I suppose I sound like I am looking for good reasons to put it on again, when i shouldn't be....which most of you pointed out… hmm…

However I guess my main queries, which perhaps were not clearly stated were:

1.	Is there something that will happen eventually, like for example “a blade tooth will come off one time in every 100 hours use”. A bit like the kick back/riving knife, some danger I just don’t know about, that if I did would make me put it on in a flash.

2.	What clever methods can I use so the guard does NOT impact my ability to work effectively.

For point 2, the example was given of using a sled, however with a max guard clearance of about 4cm, I cannot see what kind of sled would work with the guard….

Ok, ok, Steve’s DVD will have to be my starting point I guess.

Also forgive my style, I am only 2 years into doing woodwork as a hobby seriously, and I am not resistant at all to change / learning / being wrong, and definitely not resistant to safety. I am however the type of person who always wants to know why, and how…. Perhaps some of the traits that got me in to this fine mess in the first place!

At the very least it has got me thinking each time I set up, if I can use the guard, so that’s a step forward. If I am doing a set of 6 kitchen cabinets with lots of repeatable cuts, then I can see that it's no effort at all to leave the guard on.

I also saw some new law (could have been misinformation) being proposed in the states that all machines will have to have flesh sensing technology, and that the sawstop already has this? Comes to complete stop in 1/8 of a second when senses flesh. I am really curious how the sensor works, and how it can stop so quickly…

thanks guys!


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## sometimewoodworker (28 Oct 2011)

wcndave":8qc6af2u said:


> Interesting conversation so far, although you may all just think I am being a muppet..
> !


Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings


> I don’t think I am looking for a reason to “not put the guard there”, I am considering the cost in terms of hours, vs risk / impact..!


totally wrong headed analysis. 


> However the cases that I have so far from the thread are:
> -	Wild cat
> -	Distraction (M Pipes)
> -	Blackout
> ...


You are totally missing the point. 

Accidents happen, many are unpredictable. 
Guards make the result of an accident less bad
QED 


> For point 2, the example was given of using a sled, however with a max guard clearance of about 4cm, I cannot see what kind of sled would work with the guard….!



you miss understand. The sled has its own guard. 


> I also saw some new law (could have been misinformation) being proposed in the states that all machines will have to have flesh sensing technology, and that the sawstop already has this? Comes to complete stop in 1/8 of a second when senses flesh. I am really curious how the sensor works, and how it can stop so quickly…
> 
> thanks guys!


 there is a lot of information on their site and google


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## wcndave (28 Oct 2011)

Yer, the SawStop actually looks like a really nice saw table as well. shame they don't do them over here.

regarding the Sled comment, I am sure i misunderstand, however I have not seen examples etc, so rather than just saying I am wrong, I am looking for examples!


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## wcndave (28 Oct 2011)

wow, the inventor actually puts his finger in the blade to demonstrate it....

http://youtu.be/E3mzhvMgrLE

Awesome!


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## Benchwayze (28 Oct 2011)

I don't care how many repeated tests with sausages stop the machine. There is no way I would put my finger to the blade to test it! Plus the fact that it's a new saw every time the thing operates. So you would have to be very careful about eating hot dogs in the shop! :mrgreen: 

John


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## wcndave (28 Oct 2011)

Yer, that's what i mean, he's pretty confident in it... still he did go in very slowly, not like the sausage, don't blame him!

Some people actually moaned on US forums that every time it activates you need a new saw! like it's a choice between finger and saw... shouldn't be an issue unless you bought it for your hot dog factory.


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## hammer n nails (30 Oct 2011)

glad you are ok the saw can be replaced but you cant


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