# Fancy a new bowl gouge



## wizer (15 Sep 2009)

I quite fancy a new bowl gouge. However, I'm rather confused by the immense choice out there. I thought I'd settled on one of Henry Taylor's Mastercut ASP2060 gouges but then it occured to me that I'm attending the Cressing Temple show this weekend and could treat myself there. But only Robert Sorby will be there selling tools. Their equivalent shape gouge is cheaper but isn't made with the fancy tool steel that the HT Mastercut is.

So question is: Is the fancy tool steel worth the extra money? Will I see a difference in performance? Will it turn me into Jimmy Clewes?

PS: I considered going to town on a Doug Thompson gouge but that's somewhat costly


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## Bodrighy (15 Sep 2009)

I must confess all my tools have been bought cheap on Ebay so are all sorts of makes, Record, Sorby, Henry Taylor, etc etc.and apart from regrinding one or two to a different shape when I get them I haven't found much difference apart from the handles. I prefer a longer heavier handle than some makes have and am too lazy to make my own. I can't personally see the advantage of one make over the other apart from that and of course price which can vary a lot.

Pete


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## CHJ (15 Sep 2009)

wizer":1k125u5x said:


> I quite fancy a new bowl gouge.


 Whatever floats your boat, but why other than just for the hell of spending money.



wizer":1k125u5x said:


> So question is: Is the fancy tool steel worth the extra money?


 Possibly to a production or fine gallery turner.



wizer":1k125u5x said:


> Will I see a difference in performance?


How good a turner are you? will you just be judging the tool on it's ability to hold an edge longer?



wizer":1k125u5x said:


> Will it turn me into Jimmy Clewes?


 :duno: you probably have a better feel for that than me.

I personally think it will be several hundred items down the road, or some spectacular breakthrough in my turning ability and technique, before I could expect to be able to gain any improvement from spending pocket money on more so called exotic tools.

Sorry if this sounds brutal *Tom* but I'm of the same school of thinking as *Tam's* by-line:

trying to let the beauty of wood live on. (still trying!) 
Practice and technique are far more important than dreaming of, and spending money on new and bigger tools.


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## wizer (15 Sep 2009)

Fair points Chas. The only bowl gouge I have is a 3/8 inch long grind crown. I do like it and get on fairly well with it, but been thinking about trying a larger size as I am turning bigger stuff lately. Also I wanted to experiment with slightly differing tool profiles but didn't want to muck about with the one gouge that I can use fairly well. I'd also like to try a bigger standard grind bowl gouge, as I only have a carbon steel version.

A lot of my post was tongue in cheek and I certainly didn't think that a gouge was going to make me into a professional turner. I guess the crux of what I was getting at is what the main differences between the many many variations are. Lots of pro's seem to have their own signature lines and, indeed, I was tempted by Eli Avisera's double bevel jobby but I might experiment with my own first. Pete's comments about them all being roughly the same is useful and I think the handle is personal, I'm not experienced enough to know what I want from either end of the tool tbh.


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## CHJ (15 Sep 2009)

wizer":3t2czlb4 said:


> Fair points Chas. The only bowl gouge I have is a 3/8 inch long grind crown. I do like it and get on fairly well with it, but been thinking about trying a larger size as I am turning bigger stuff lately. .....



Then I would say just get hold of a 'reasonable' brand/quality larger diameter item.

Play with that, I bought a 1/2"- 3/4" bowl gouge a couple of years ago on the basis that I thought it was going to make life easier on larger pieces, I thought wrong, yes it has extra weight but all it does is fight back harder if I get the presentation wrong.

Every time I pick it up it is with the hope that I can make it work better for me but it soon gets put back on the rack in favour of my 3/8-1/2" versions.

I would say don't go bigger than 1/2-5/8", did you note which size George was using at the bash, they were not overly large diameter but he was operating with more handle leverage for better control of the forces reacting from the larger diameters.

One way if you are still unsure of grinding angles that suit you might be a good idea to get hold of some of those short grinding angle sample steels and make yourself a handle/holder to hold them whilst you try them out. That way you will get 6 different grinds to compare.


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## Paul.J (15 Sep 2009)

Can't you try the different ones out at the club :?:


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## wizer (15 Sep 2009)

CHJ":2839l5ou said:


> One way if you are still unsure of grinding angles that suit you might be a good idea to get hold of some of those short grinding angle sample steels and make yourself a handle/holder to hold them whilst you try them out. That way you will get 6 different grinds to compare.



Not sure I know what you mean there Chas?

You're advice makes complete sense. Maybe I just need to buy a HSS standard grind bowl gouge and get my technique with that tool and then work out if I need bigger tools. My tool control still sucks big time and I still take about 3hrs to complete an 8 inch bowl.

Paul, I haven't been to a hands on session for a couple of months and probably won't for a while.


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## BMac (15 Sep 2009)

I agree with Chas, I gave my 3/4" bowl gouge away and instead do most of my work with a 1/2" or 3/8". I use Hamlet but I've also used other makes and I really didn't notice any difference. Maybe in time I'll have enough experience to notice different steel performances but getting a good sharp edge is my priority now.

Brendan


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## Bodrighy (15 Sep 2009)

When I am turning at the club I find I spend the first few minutes adjusting as their tools are ground differnetly to mine. The best way to get good tool control is to have a go. You have a great lathe and from what I can tell plenty of wood so jst getting yourself comfortable, that I understand is a major consideration if you have back problems, and trying different approaches. In some ways I was lucky, I started 2 1/2 years ago on a Perform CCL with carbon steel tools in an attic with no-one except people like Chas and Old Soke giving me advice and critiques so I just got on. I wasn't confused by different styles and experts telling me what was right and wrong. Whilst in no way think of myself as an expert, I have developed my own style and have learnt what makes the tool catch, and dig in by experience. I look at the things I was turning out a year ago and can't believe that I was happy with it. Chuck some wood on the lathe, grab a tool and see what you can do with it is the best advice I can give.

Pete


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## wizer (15 Sep 2009)

Thanks Pete. I think sometimes people assume that I think buying a big expensive lathe will make me a better turner. The reason I like to buy the best I can afford is I hate to buy twice (or thrice). Like you say, my time at the lathe is limited to what I can physically manage. For example, I started a platter on Saturday morning and spent an hour on it. I did an hour this morning and if I am lucky I'll finish it within an hour tomorrow sometime (if I can get some time away from the birthday well wishers). So practise is always broken up and segmented. Halfway through I always think "I just want to get this done" and so I revert back to 'cheating' (80 grit gouge, etc). So if the lathe or the tools are substandard then I'm loosing even more time.

Anyway I am going off track. I'll try a standard grind bowl gouge and see how it goes. 

Cheers all.


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## CHJ (15 Sep 2009)

wizer":3sjcqprv said:


> Not sure I know what you mean there Chas?



http://www.henrytaylortools.co.uk/profi ... tools.html


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## wizer (15 Sep 2009)

Interesting, Thanks Chas.


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## Paul.J (15 Sep 2009)

*Wizer wrote*


> Paul, I haven't been to a hands on session for a couple of months and probably won't for a while.


In that case than.
I have a HT 1/2" and a 5/8" Woodcut replaceable tip which i both like for doing the larger pieces.
A 3/8 Record and Sorby for the smaller pieces.
I first had the Record which when i got used to it i loved it and thought i'd never use anything else.But doing the bigger stuff you do feel the difference just by going a size up.
The HT i do like as it feels just right,but i am also now getting used to the Woodcut,which again is a very nice tool.
You just need to use them/it as much as you can,and keep sharpening regularly when turning.
If you fancy another trip up you can try mine out :?:


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## wizer (15 Sep 2009)

Thanks for that Paul, I'll keep it in mind. I'll see what offers are going on at the show this weekend, I feel like treating myself so I'll get something whatever happens.


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## TobyB (15 Sep 2009)

By slowly collecting, and messing about trying to learn, I now have five ... two 1/2" and two 3/4", one of each with a long/shallow grind and another pair with a steeper/shallower grind (wings/bevel) ... and more recently acquired the fifth to try out a very steep/shallow grind for doing the bottoms/corners of deep/steep-profiled bowls ... have found the choice of the bigger/smaller tool and different angle grinds helpful for different profiles ... but no inclination to try for more ... perhaps if I was any good I wouldn't be using all of these ...


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## gasmansteve (15 Sep 2009)

Hi Tom
I quite fancy some Ashley Isles gouges after reading the article in this months Goodwoodworking but I`m a bit of a sucker for old companies that make stuff `the old ways`. I must think deep down it makes me a better turner (it doesn`t) :lol: 
Steve
Ps like the 30yr Woodworkers article :lol:


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## Bodrighy (15 Sep 2009)

I've got an old 1/4" carbon steel spindle gouge that I use for doing my crochet hooks. Gets a really sharp edge and because I am doing fine work doesn't lose it very quickly. Cost me 50p at a boot sale. 

Pete


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## BMac (16 Sep 2009)

Wizer, I forgot about the back issues. I should have added that I found the 3/4" bowl gouge required more effort to control and that affected my condition. However, taking lighter cuts with a smaller gouge was much easier on me and I abandoned the idea of 'hogging out wood' like I see on some videos.

Brendan


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## tekno.mage (16 Sep 2009)

Like Bodrighy, I have a collection of bowl gouges I picked up cheap second-hand on ebay, so have got examples by Sorby, Henry Taylor & Crown - along with the two Record Power ones I started off with. I can't see much difference in the edge-holding abilities of the steel - but there is a difference in the shapes of the flutes. The Record Power ones are quite narrow at the bottom of the flute, whereas the Henry Taylor ones are quite wide at the bottom of the flute. The Crown and Sorby ones fall somewhere in between.

The Record Power & Henry Taylor ones have good long handles, the Crown one has a heavy handle that's a bit shorter, and the Sorby one has a handle that I find just a bit too short (must get around to making it a longer one).

I find it's useful to have bowl gouges with different grinds - especially a short steep one for getting into the bottoms of bowls, but I'm no expert!

I mainly use 3/8" and 1/2" bowl gouges - the 1/2" ones more for roughing and the 3/8" ones more for finishing. I also have a 1/4" one someone gave me which I rarely if ever use - it just seems far too slender & light for the job.

tekno.mage


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## CHJ (16 Sep 2009)

tekno.mage":1zpip89r said:


> I find it's useful to have bowl gouges with different grinds - especially a short steep one for getting into the bottoms of bowls, but I'm no expert!



Much the same here, just my favourite (3/8 hamlet) & one (3/8 crown)for the inside bottoms of deeper bowls and the like. plus one other long grind which gets occasional use.



tekno.mage":1zpip89r said:


> I also have a 1/4" one someone gave me which I rarely if ever use - it just seems far too slender & light for the job.
> tekno.mage


 Likewise I have a couple I picked up secondhand but they do get used for little clean up jobs in tight places, say in the bottom of my egg cup saucer wells or jewelry bits.


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## duncanh (16 Sep 2009)

I have 6 bowl gouges (I think) ranging from 1/4" up to 1/2" manufactured by Sorby, Ashley Iles, Crown and Record. All are HSS and one of the Crowns is their PM brand. I'd say the PM one keeps it's edge marginally longer but it's not really worth the extra cost. I was lucky to find them on sale at Harrogate show for about the same price as standard HSS.

As other's have said, I would go for standard HSS (although theres probably no standard across the manufacturers) and put the money towards more gouges as this allows you to have several with different grinds.

Last year I bought a Record 1/2" gouge and really like it. It's quite a bit cheaper than most manufacturers but has a deep V flute which, with a swept back grind gives a large cutting edge that can really shift timber. Of course, you need to be careful with it as such a large edge can make for large catches.

Duncan


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## SVB (16 Sep 2009)

Tom,

After experimenting with nearly all makes out there and all the flute profiles that are milled into them (it the flute, not the grind on the end) I keep coming back to the HT super-flute gouges (HS1 is the code for the larger size you are after).

It takes the long grind very well and the steel holds an edge really well.

My 2p worth anyway.

Simon


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## wizer (16 Sep 2009)

Thanks again all.  Simon, from the research that I have done, the superflute is what I favour most -I think. Even from this thread it's hard to work out which gouge to go for. There is such a massive selection out there. I think to save time and money, I'm just going to buy a couple of cheap gouges at Cressing Temple (if they are discounted enough). One HSS 3/8" square grind bowl gouge and one 1/2" fingernail grind. That'll do me for now.


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## lurker (16 Sep 2009)

Wizer,

Assuming they are there at the show, I'd urge you to look at Ashley Isles stuff. I have his deep fluted gouge and it is a fine tool. It was a very good price from I show I went to. 

The web site does not do his tools justice - you really need to see & handle them.

I too want to experiment with gouges & grinds, so like you I wanted a few more. 
By being extremely cheeky (if you don't ask you don't get) I aquired two really nice ones (& a smashing scraper!) that were cast offs :roll: from a forum member. I managed to catch him whilst he was drunk ( its the only explanation :duno: ) and he sold them to me for a stupid price - I nearly ripped his arm off!!


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## wizer (16 Sep 2009)

ooo Jim I nearly didn't read your post and just posted "Shut up Jim" :lol: 

So basically you're saying I should buy 2 of each type of bowl gouge on the market? Ok.


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## lurker (16 Sep 2009)

wizer":3i6j76r8 said:


> ooo Jim I nearly didn't read your post and just posted "Shut up Jim" :lol:
> 
> So basically you're saying I should buy 2 of each type of bowl gouge on the market? Ok.



I'm saying look at (in the flesh) Ashley Isles stuff before you buy any.


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## cornucopia (16 Sep 2009)

what are you incinerating about me Jim!!! :lol: 

tom- you've used both the ashley isles and the superflute on that oak bowl you and richard did with me. the superflute was in the oneway handle.
out of the two i prefer the ashley isles and find that the superflute can be slightly twitchy with fine cuts, i find both gouge hold an edge for a similar amount of time.


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## colin macdiarmid (16 Sep 2009)

I use the Ashley isles deep fluted gouge and find it great


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## robo hippy (17 Sep 2009)

I am one of those who have to experiment a lot. I have a number of the Thompson gouges, and prefer them. I have found his prices to be great as you can only buy direct from him, he does not whole sale his tools. You do have to make your own handles, or use a manufactured one, but I prefer wood. I do like the standard high speed steel, and it does take a bit finer edge that you can notice if you go from the powder metals after a few months of heavy turning, and then switch back to the HSS. The difference isn't much, and as the powder metal technology advances, this difference will get to be considerably less. The biggest difference with the harder steels is that they don't keep a fresh off the grinder edge any better than the HSS. About one minute at high speed finish cut speed will be like about a half mile of wood shavings. The harder steel gouges and scrapers do keep a workable edge a lot longer than the HSS. This means you can do a lot more roughing with them than you can the HSS. I always use a freshly sharpened gouge for the finish cut, and some times even hone it a bit. If you are a real penny pincher, the powder metal tools will last a lot longer, because you don't grind off nearly as much each time you sharpen.

robo hippy


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## wizer (17 Sep 2009)

Thanks Reed, I do like the look of the Thompson tools but the postage pushes the price up a bit and then the risk of customs charges. I think it'll work out £10-15 dearer than the HT 2060 gouges, bought in the UK. Maybe in the future when I feel like experimenting some more.
I think it's between Ashley Iles & the superflute. I'm a fan of AI's woodworking chisels, but I don't think they will be at the show this weekend, so I'll have to go mail order.


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