# Tools and machines for my workshop?



## silz (26 Aug 2020)

I thought that instead of writing more threads on choosing A vs B I'd rather just go ahead and ask for advice on one larger single thread.

I currently have a decent single garage workshop but would like to take it a bit to next level as I'd like to be working with more sawn/dried hardwood boards but i'm not sure how much my budget will allow for this.

Early on a couple of years ago i started with the cheapest of the cheapest i could find -- Ozito and have been thoroughly disappointed at how useless most of their stuff are. I would've been better of just doing nothing as the only thing I was able to produce with these was very expensive firewood.

This year after finally getting a garage I started investing in Makita and some Axminster Craft tools which i found excellent!

This has sort of given me the mindset that I'm better of just biting the bullet and cry just once when paying a hefty price tag for a decent tool.

*Spreadsheet of tools i've already had for a while and I'm happy with*

*Spreadsheet of what I plan on getting*

*Main stuff: 

Planer/thicknesser* that doesn't sound like satanic screeching, i understand this limits me to waiting 2 months for the iTech 260s or three weeks for the AT260SPT and hoping I can get everything square myself. I could also upgrade to the JET JPT 310HH which seems significantly better than both but that would blow over half of my budget just there.

*Bandsaw* -- For this one i'm almost completely lost, apart from larger cutting capacity I have no idea what to look for. I've looked at Axminster's Trade series, Laguna, Charnwood, etc. and it didn't get any less confusing.

*Router* -- I understand that a proper router table setup will run me up to £2k easily, not counting bits. For my use case & experience though I don't expect to be using a router table too much so a custom-built one with a basic top should be sufficient as a starter. I do intend to do quite a bit of template-based finishing and based on that it seems like the Festool OF1400 1/2" with an ultimate spiral combination bit should do the job.

*Bobbin Sander - *I haven't used one in the past but it seems like this would be excellent for finishing up projects with a lot of curves. I find it a bit tricky achieving this with just the random orbit sander.

*Festool Domino 500* -- I think i'd mostly be using the smaller dominos which the 700XL can't do, from what I've seen so far even if they'd be the exact same price I'd be better off with the 500. No flexibility here unless I find a good used version.

I'll also need to upgrade my garage's sockets to add a 16A and a 32A braker as the current one is only 16A which I'm waiting for quotes on and hoping that it's not going to be terribly expensive.

Any advice around the choices/potential alternatives or just ways to bring the overall cost down is greatly appreciated as I have little practical experience with the above beyond digital research.

EDIT: Apologies for the confusion, wanted to clear things up:

I'm not looking for *<what do i need to buy to get started with woodworking>. *I'm by no means 'good' at this but I have been consistently woodworking for 2+ years now. It's just that this year was the first time I had the opportunity to get a proper home workshop.

I'm asking for advice around specific brands & models as I don't know a lot of them in the UK and it seems like there could be better options out there that I don't know about. (for example I just herd of iTech for the very first time this week)


----------



## Steve Maskery (26 Aug 2020)

Wow.
Each to his own. of course, but I'm not sure that you are approaching this in the same way that I would. IIUYC you are asking what machines you need. I think you should start with, "What do I want to achieve with my woodwork?"
I have everything on your list, and a lot more besides, but I have built my workshop up over 40-odd years. The first tools I bought were hand tools. The first machines were a Nu-tools drill press and a little dewalt bandsaw. A small (but rolls-royce quality) MOF96 came next.
I bought as I could afford. Still do, but at nowhere near the same rate.
My Dad was a cabinet maker. He told me to buy one tool a week. I didn't matter whether it was a screwdriver or a tableasw, buy a tool. In those days there were proper tool shops. Four at least in Nottingham. Mibro. Poole's Tools (later Poolwood). Black's. Hopkinson's. Dad was paid weekly, so it made semse. Get paid, buy a tool. Make it a priority. But BUY AS YOU NEED.
Only when you have an idea of what you want to make will you get an idea of what you need.
And 2k for a RT? No you don't.
S


----------



## silz (26 Aug 2020)

@Steve Maskery

Thank you for your reply -- i was perhaps not clear enough, I know what kind of tools I want and need, I was saying I haven't specifically used those models of those machines myself in person. Not that <kind> of tool although perhaps the bandsaw itself is that special one which I haven't used a proper one enough to know what to want from it.

I'm not originally from the UK and the brands/models available here are mostly new to me as there's a lot of companies rebranding variations of what are virtually chinese/taiwanese products. It seems that every other week I discover a new uk brand of tools that I could consider.

Yeah I agree you don't <need> a 2k RT and that it's overkill for most people. Based on my experience on other forums i was half expecting people to keep telling me to 'wait for more money and buy the <much more expensive version> of that and that is the reason why I mentioned that.


----------



## MikeG. (26 Aug 2020)

Steve and Trevanion have got this about right. Learn your skills with a small collection of tools, and when you reach the limits of what you can do with them you'll have a clearer idea of what you need next. Spend your money on wood, not tools. I saw a good video this afternoon by a boatbuilder giving a workshop tour. Right at the end he said something quite profound. Let's see if I can find it....



Go to 31 minutes if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

As for a router table costing £2K..........that's just nuts. Neither of mine have cost a penny, all made from scraps, and they're every bit as functional as anything you can buy. You don't seem to have any handtools at all, nor are planning to buy any. Surely that can't be right.


----------



## silz (26 Aug 2020)

@MikeG. Thank you for your message and really appreciate that you took the time! Also, apologies for the confusion, i have definitely not been super clear. 

I do have plenty of hand tools (chisels, saws, various hand planes, hand-drill, etc.) I just didn't think they were relevant to add in that context. And to be fair most of them I've grabbed as used off of gumtree/facebook marketplace before we moved into the new place with the garage. 

I'm not looking for tools to 'get started with woodworking' i'm looking to upgrade my setup to be able to work more accurately with sawn + dried (no space to dry myself) hardwood boards. I know the kind of tools that I want & need although I can't pretend I'm an expert. 

I don't plan on getting more hand-tools as speed-of-built is still a relevant factor to what I'm building. 

I didn't mean 2k for the router table itself, but a router table setup with Router + extraction + cast iron top + base + accessories. 

I will update my original post to clear things up. Thank you!


----------



## Trevanion (26 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> I didn't mean 2k for the router table itself, but a router table setup with Router + extraction + cast iron top + base + accessories.



For £2000 you could have a very decent spindle moulder set-up instead, but that really all depends on what you're actually making.


----------



## PAC1 (26 Aug 2020)

Tell us what sort of things you want to make over the next year. We can the give some advice


----------



## Hornbeam (26 Aug 2020)

Perhaps I've been doing this woodworking thing wrong. I dont see a single good quality hand tool on any of your list
It does depend upon what you want to make but I would certainly suggest you need a decent set of quality chisels, a couple of bench plane, a rebate plane, a couple of hand saws and good quality marking out tools. If buying new thats probably best part of £1k
Think very carefully about how much space you have you could end up with a garage full of tools and nowhere to work
Ian


----------



## Steve Maskery (26 Aug 2020)

OK, Sebastian, that is clearer (but I still think you are a tad bonkers  ). (That's OK I am a tad bonkers, too, just in different ways  )

This is what I have and would have again if I were starting from scratch.

RT. Buy Norm Abram's plan for his Deluxe Router table. Any Brimarc dealer. It will cost you a few quid for the plans and a sheet and a half of top-quality baltic birch plywood.. His table is The Biz. Then buy my plans for a fence (cos my fence is better than his. But Ah, I've not got round to publishing them yet. Been on the TUIT list for far too may years).

Bandsaw. I have the big Scheppach. 5-4. I don't think it is made any more. You might get a 5-2 (two-speed rather than four-speed, I've never changed the speed at all). Great machine, but serious footprint. If I were starting again I'd buy a second-hand Startrite. There is a place in Nottingham, whose name escapes me for the moment, which specialises in quality second-hand machines. Dalton's, that's them. Good outfit.

Tablesaw. I have the Xcalibur from Woodford, sadly no longer available. It's a trad Delta clone. Built like a tank, but old-fashioned design.
Today I would look at the Bosch. My brother has it and it is very good in many ways.

SCMS. I have the Bosch 12" jobbie. Superb.

Drill press. I have Lulu. A Meddings machine built in 1964 (or whatever year it was that Lulu had a hit with "Shout!"). Carp pulley technology, but the quill and the business end are a joy to use. (I see the Unacceptable Language Filter is still in operation  )

Power tools. I have a fair bit of Festool stuff, all of it excellent. But I also have cheap & cheerful stuff, which I use just as much. Katsu routers, Aldi drills, Lidl shopvac, etc.

If anything else comes to mind, I'll add.
S


----------



## topchippyles (26 Aug 2020)

I use einhell a fair bit and the 18v impact driver is excellent quality.


----------



## johnnyb (26 Aug 2020)

fundamental things are planer thicknesser saw both table and crosscut. once your timbers the right size flat and square. everything's becomes easier


----------



## AJB Temple (26 Aug 2020)

Hmmm. What you need to spend _money_ on, IMO, is good wood. Spend_ time_ on skill building. If your workshop is really a single garage then I suspect you need to cut back massively on machinery. I've been making stuff for 30 years and still find that hand tools, a good tracks, a cheap router table, can do a lot. I find a bandsaw useful but not really essential. I can afford what I want, but almost all of the Festool gear I have (Domino, planer, etc) is second hand from "tool collectors". My PT was second hand (£250), pillar drill (Fobco £200 and bomb proof + no quill movement), likewise lathe and table saw. Good tools are very tough so buying excellent brands used is generally pretty safe.


----------



## Steve Maskery (26 Aug 2020)

Ah yes, a Planer/Thicknesser. I have a Kity 637. Excellent as far as it goes and has done me sterling fo many, many years. I wish it had longer beds (mine are 600mm in and out), so that's OK for lengths up to, say, 1.6m. But if I am trying to true timber up to 2.4m then that is a bit short and I struggle.


----------



## Fitzroy (26 Aug 2020)

gosh, you made me go and do a quick tool inventory and tot up, was scared i'd spent way more than i thought. phew luckily not.

I expect our approaches are very different in some ways and similar in others. I do not buy garbage cheap tools as they are a false economy, we see eye to eye there. However I think there’s value to be had buying secondhand and that’s where most of my machines are from.

I‘be found heavy machines to be less screechy but a PT is always noisy when actively cutting, even a spiral one. There are a number of YouTube videos on them showing this. You’ll need ear defenders anyhow.

If you want to work from sawn stock then a good PT is IMHO priceless. Since getting a decent bandsaw I barely use my tablesaw and in a small shop I’d pick a bandsaw and ditch the tablesaw.

Fitz.


----------



## Steve Maskery (26 Aug 2020)

Bandsaw v. Tablesaw. 
I have both. I use both, I love both, I'm glad I have both. But if a gun was put to my head to choose just one, it would be the bandsaw.


----------



## AJB Temple (26 Aug 2020)

Steve Maskery said:


> Bandsaw v. Tablesaw.
> I have both. I use both, I love both, I'm glad I have both. But if a gun was put to my head to choose just one, it would be the bandsaw.


Me too. Tracksaw / circular saw will do most things a table saw can do. Band saw is hard to replicate without a lot of manual effort.


----------



## Steve Maskery (26 Aug 2020)

Track saw, I forgot about that. Best way to handle sheet goods, short of having an Altendorf


----------



## silz (26 Aug 2020)

@Trevanion

I use the router table setup that i have (1/4" 18v makita trimmer with the 40gbp insert plate & all else built of birch plywood by me) mostly for box joints/dovetails (using a jig)/rabbets/half-lap. I can see the appeal of a 'full blown' setup like in this list (totaling 2000+ gbp) in order to get more accurate/repeatable results without effort. But I agreed right from the get go that it isn't something I'd benefit spending so much of my budget on although I still have <some> routing needs.








@PAC1

Although not exclusively, the upgrades listed is to allow me to make nicer interior pieces such as dining tables, coffe tables, bedsides, bedframes, benches, chairs & credenza-like furniture out of hardwoods. Although out of those, my immediate focus will be towards the benches, bedsides pieces and the dining table.

I'm looking for a decent turnaround time with repeatable & accurate results although I'm trying to manage my expections around there. I've built these before but only out of pine & plywood, not out of pricier hardwoods as I wasn't confident enough to make the jump from cheap wood.

@Hornbeam

Thank you, i appreciate the advice! I do currently own the handtools you have listed and I'm happy with what I've got on that side of things. However they're not practical enough for me for what I wish to build next. Although a single garage it is somewhat larger than a standard one, I've carefully planned and built custom storage to make the most out of the little space I have and after the addition of a planer/thicknesser + bigger bandsaw I'll probably max out my space, but there's definitely space left to add those two.

@Steve Maskery

Thank you for getting back to me with such a detailed response, I guess I am a tad bit more bonkers than initially thought!

So everything in the first link is stuff I already have and used for a while and to be honest I'm quite happy with most of them for the stuff I needed done!

I seem to use the pillar drill for building jigs & workshop furniture more than anything and the Bosch PBD40 has done a great job for me so far. On the table-saw side, although only an 8" saw the Axminster Craft table saw has handled everything i've managed to throw at it, although only after I've increased its capacity with a custom mini-bench around it.

I am however not too happy about the router table I've built so far so will definitely look at those plans & guide to build a better one!

I've had some squaring issues with the Erbauer tracksaw but I suspect the main issue was with the way the sheets were pre-cut by the mill as I had used their cutting service to get them down to 1.6m to 1.m to be able to transport them myself, since then I've decided to just have them deliver full sheets. I've definitely used it enough to want a more smoother festool track saw but I can't get myself justifying the 500gbp spend!


----------



## Steve Maskery (26 Aug 2020)

If you (perhaps that should read "When you) go down the tracksaw route, you will need three things:
My setting gauge and length guage on an MFT - 
A cutting table. The Tiddles had a great idea and then a few of us played about with it a bit. Superb result.








Sore Hoarses MkII - Now with added plans!


That'll screw up the search engines! Cutting up sheet materials is something I'm doing quite a bit now and supporting it evenly and allowing access is really important so the baby Mafell can get its teeth into it. Obviously I could have a large table area set aside for this purpose but where...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


----------



## silz (26 Aug 2020)

@Fitzroy

Thank you for the message & time! I'm wearing noise-cancelling headphones and can't hear a thing most of the time, I'm mostly worried about the neighbours as they'll really be able to tell the difference even when working with the garage door closed. I'm trying to build some mobile noise-screens out of scraps to position strategically to help reduce the noise so even if it's just ~5-10db, it will make a difference as the scale is after all logarhitmic. 

If it weren't for the noise, I'd buy the AX Craft for 850 quid and call it a day!

I'm a bit put off from buying used tools as I'm not confident I'd be able to figure out if there's anything wrong with them + the hassle of the transport. The price reduction for a used item doesn't seem worth the tradeoff on items I've seen so far.

I find the table saw quite useful for cross-cuts (with a custom sled and bench around the saw) as I do not have a decent mitre saw. I feel like I'd want one with trenching and shadowlight if I were to upgrade from my 35gbp ozito and then I'd have to dedicate some part of the workshop to it.

Do you mind sharing what Bandsow and PT you have & how they worked out so far? Are you happy with them?


----------



## silz (26 Aug 2020)

@Steve Maskery 

Thanks again! So far I've made used of some cheap standley sawhorses connected by 2x4's with some loft-floor panels I had laying around on top of it as a base to support the work as I cut into it. I can definitely see the appeal of a more properly designed stand like the Sore Hoarses MKII. 

The video's also been quite helpful, i need to build myself one of those stop-block sticks! It takes me quadruple checking/measuring at every edge before making a cut and even after that I don't trust its square unless I clamp the track down!


----------



## PAC1 (27 Aug 2020)

In order to work with hardwoods you do need a planer thicknesser, however you do not need a spiral cutting head unless you work with very difficult hardwoods. I understand your noise concerns but I do think a spiral head is worth it. you could insulate the garage to reduce noise from all machines with the saving.
As for bandsaws consider something like a Record BS350
Also I simply do not know how you will get all the machines you want and have in a single garage and actually be able to make furniture. When I set up my first workshop in a single garage the only machines I had were a small combination machine, a bandsaw and chip extractor. Even then space was a premium


----------



## MikeG. (27 Aug 2020)

PAC1 said:


> In order to work with hardwoods you do need a planer thicknesser......



Apart from the above, I agree with your every word. If you don't have a planer thicknesser you'll soon get pretty good with a handplane.

Yep, the big deal here is that the OP is going to end up with a shiny collection of expensive tools, no money left to spend on wood, and no space to work in.


----------



## Fitzroy (27 Aug 2020)

I know what you mean about table saw cross cuts with a sled, it’s about the main thing I use my TS for. Although I now often do this on the bandsaw, with a shooting board to finish the end to the precise mark.

I have a DW1150PT that I have taken the tables off and now it’s just used as a thicknesser. I have a Wadkin BFT9 surface planer.

The planer is 60” long which is great and means I can process long(ish) boards. It’s a two knife cutter block but a large diameter and leaves a good finish. It’s heavy and although noisy it’s not screechy. However it’s only 9.25 inches wide and I would like to go to a 12” model as I often work with boards wider than 9” (235mm). It’s three phase and I rewired it with an VFD. Cost £250 on Gumtree and £80 for the VFD.

The thicknesser is a bit of a weak link in the chain. It’s got a short bed and the rollers are not that strong, the cutter block is a smaller diameter. As a result boards come off with noticeable scallop cuts from the knife passes. It’s a real workhorse and it’s only now after about 4 years of woodworking that I’m starting to find it’s shortfalls bothersome. Cost £200 on gumtree. 

I have a Startrite 352 bandsaw, three phase rewired with an inverter. It didn’t have a fence so I bought one second had on here. Cost £200 + £60 for VFD and £60 for the fence. Huge upgrade over my old ELU. A good machine with as much capacity as I’ll ever need. The fence is excellent and makes a positive difference on the machine over the OEM fence.

I appreciate what your saying about buying second hand. I tend to take it to extremes buying old three phase machines that are cheap, need converting and could require other works to get running smoothly, ie bearing changes etc. I’m mechanically and electrically confident and enjoy the fix up. If you don’t take it this far you can still get newer machines with few running hours on eBay, Gutree or from dealers. 

F


----------



## PAC1 (27 Aug 2020)

MikeG, I agree that hand planing is a skill all woodworkers should possess and as an apprentice I was taught to face and edge timber and dimension it. I was also required to make all assessed pieces totally by hand. However if you want to make things with hardwoods a planer thicknesser will save the most time in the process. Far more than a bandsaw, rip saw, mortiser, sander etc.
I think if I was the op, I would take stock of what is needed and eBay anything currently owned that is not absolutely necessary and taking up precious space. Then take Steve's Dad's advice (which I was also told) to buy 1 tool at a time as needed rather than wanted.


----------



## Bod (27 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> I thought that instead of writing more threads on choosing A vs B I'd rather just go ahead and ask for advice on one larger single thread.
> 
> I currently have a decent single garage workshop but would like to take it a bit to next level as I'd like to be working with more sawn/dried hardwood boards but i'm not sure how much my budget will allow for this.
> 
> ...




Are you planning on going professional?
If so, then at some time you will almost certainly employ someone, albeit "just" to sweep up a couple of times a week, soon becomes "here hold this" "can you cut 28 of these"
This then puts you into the world of H&S requirements, it will be better to buy H&S compliant machines now, rather than to have to upgrade later. Some DIY grade machines, and a lot of 2nd hand will not comply.

Bod.


----------



## wkerswell (27 Aug 2020)

Not sure why everyone is so against you buying the things you would like. I have a garage full of cheap tools and would love to upgrade them. Even yesterday I struggled for about an hour trying to get a flat face on a cheap joiner. Wasted some more time trying to set the bit height in my £20 Aldi router table. It would be great to remove that sort of grind from process and just get on with the making that I enjoy.


----------



## maznaz (27 Aug 2020)

wkerswell said:


> Not sure why everyone is so against you buying the things you would like. I have a garage full of cheap tools and would love to upgrade them. Even yesterday I struggled for about an hour trying to get a flat face on a cheap joiner. Wasted some more time trying to set the bit height in my £20 Aldi router table. It would be great to remove that sort of grind from process and just get on with the making that I enjoy.



You are right, and we all have a different personal approach to a very broad-ranging hobby. That said, there are certainly hints throughout this discussion that a little more time spent on becoming proficient at some of the techniques employed would improve results more than upgrading equipment. A lot of youtube videos with fancy equipment do gloss over the fact that even using those posh bits of kit relies on a good working knowledge of technique, application of force in specific directions, understanding of warning signs and so on.

There is obviously a risk that having tools that can't perform even adequately will ruin output and prevent the ability to learn those techniques, which sounds like where you're at. I don't think after £4200 investment in the first half of the year that one should be in that situation though, unless things are being acquired for the sake of it.


----------



## recipio (27 Aug 2020)

Well, I have built up a workshop over 30 years. Here are my thoughts.
1. Almost all gear coming out of China is junk. Focus instead on European and American made tools - they will last a lifetime.
2. People complain about underpowered/ small capacity tools but no one complains about an overpowered tool. Buy the biggest tool you can afford.
3. For a PT I have found the rubber rollers on Scheppach machines allow smooth planing and let you get down to 3 mm for small dimensioning without roller marks. They are worth buying for this alone.
4. Avoid cheap routers like the plague. I have a well known router that vibrates so badly I can't use it. I find Makita routers butter smooth and built like a brick.
5. Oscillating bobbin sanders for the DIY market are pretty useless. Consider an edge sander with access to the bobbin at one end. 
6 Power is everything with a bandsaw. The best value bandsaw IMO is the Hammer N4400 which has a single phase 4 HP motor. Not too expensive either.
7 Dust is the bane of any workshop not to mention a fire hazzard. Aim to have every machine extracted with automated blast gates.

I could go on but that's a good start.Think laterally - the internet allows you to search the world for the best tools and most outlets are happy to ship them to you. I have bought a tablesaw and drum sander from the U.S. for instance. Oh......buying a tool every week is a great idea !


----------



## MikeG. (27 Aug 2020)

recipio said:


> ...... Power is everything with a bandsaw........



I can't argue with anything else you posted, but I'm not sure this, above, is the whole story. If you stuck a 4HP motor on my bandsaw, it wouldn't improve it much. The limiting factor on mine is the weakness of the bodywork, and thus how much tension can be put on the blade. (OK, the table tilting/ leveling mechanism is useless, too.......). Admittedly there is generally some sort of link between a beefier body and a more powerful motor, but I would still say that having a strong frame and/or body construction is equally as important as power.


----------



## Coyote (27 Aug 2020)

I think the tone of the responses might have been set by your initial post which, to paraphrase, said - "I've bought lots of tools and made firewood with them, so I want to rectify that by buying lots of more expensive tools". 

As has been said, expensive tools won't make up for a lack of basic skills and experience. 

I note that you edited your first post to clarify that you aren't just starting out but this could have been missed in the thread of this conversation.

To get the guidance you're after, perhaps you could show some of what you have made successful and where, specifically, you think where what you have in the way of tools is holding you back? 

Having said all that. I wish I had your budget!


----------



## MikeG. (27 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> ...........my next couple of projects which will be a bench.....



Do you not have a bench now?


----------



## silz (27 Aug 2020)

@MikeG.

fml. my bad. so -- not a workbench. An integrated sitting bench in our kitchen alongside a wall. Which I'll then build another dining table for to match.


----------



## Doug71 (27 Aug 2020)

To answer a couple of your original questions the Festool OF1400 is an excellent router but would be wasted used in a table. If you get the OF 1400 I would also get a cheaper workhorse, maybe a 1/2" Hitachi or something and build yourself a table to put it in and leave it in so you are not taking the Festool in and out of the table.

You can buy an adapter for the Domino 700 so you can use the smaller 500 bits in it. Obviously not a cheap option but gives you the best of both worlds.






Seneca Cutter Adapter - for Domino XL DF700 – Toolovation


This adapter allows mounting Festool Domino DF 500 cutters to the Festool Domino DF 700 (XL). This enables the DF 700 to cut smaller mortises that previously could only be done with the DF 500. This ensures mortises cut with DF 500 cutters on the DF 700 are the same width as they would be if cut...




www.toolovation.co.uk


----------



## PAC1 (27 Aug 2020)

I use more oak than any other wood. You need a P/T but you do not need a spiral head. Oak is not that difficult grain


----------



## silz (27 Aug 2020)

@Doug71 

Thanks! this is exactly the kind of stuff i wanted to ask about. I had no idea there's a way to get the 700 XL to make smaller mortises. 

I'm not sure if i'll ever have a consistent use of larger mortises where the 700 will excel for. For those specific cases I'll probably be ok to just use the chisel mortiser. One factor would be the increase size & weight which would make the 700 more difficult to handle than the 500. 

On the router side -- I was feeling the same already and based on your comments and what I've seen others suggest, I'll use the OF 1400 mostly for templating work and routing outside the table as it seems the kind of thing it truly excels at. I'll see if I can get the Ozito attached to the plate to use with the router table for now as I don't want to get a 4th router if I can help it. 

I guess If I'll end up using the router table more than now, I'll probably invest in a cheaper 1/2" router like the Trend or even Dewalt/Makita seem to have nice offerings around the ~200gbp mark. Tanks for the advice!


----------



## silz (27 Aug 2020)

@PAC1 

Thanks. While i want to start with Oak, I intend to keep the PT for the next 5-10 years and It is likely I'll want to try other timbers during that time span and I wouldn't want to be limited by the PT & have to sell the one I buy now and then buy a Spiral one -- if I can help it.


----------



## AJB Temple (27 Aug 2020)

I would not get the 700 unless you are doing very large pieces. The advantage of the smaller domino is it is light, easy to locate on the cut line and easy to operate one handed. For most domestic sized work, the 700 will slow you down. I find a 500 very easy but I sold my ex eBay 700 as even though I may doors etc, it is just for me and for large pieces I prefer a mortice and tenon or a wedged M&T.


----------



## Ttrees (27 Aug 2020)

Hello
Seems like you're in a rush to make money back, or have something to show from your investment.
That's not a good place to be in, as in buying a few production machines
and finally producing quality and then fatigue kicks in or some other variable.

I had a look at your lists and fair enough, I can't really comment or give advice 
as what you're looking for is a mini production environment with no hand tools being emphasised.

The one thing I will say in jest is you should get a welder for all these machines
because even if you get half the stuff on the list, everything will need to be on wheels or you buy an overpriced add on instead.
I just think its very practical to own one.

I don't think locked castors are safe, which I presume would be in "wheel kits" or whatever on most of the stuff you'd buy.
And the same goes for small lightweight machines in general
which often have a much lesser distance between operator and the cut.

A metal design something like Carl Holmgren's drops the machine feet back on the floor.
This might not be what you want to hear since you've got a shopping list.

Anyway, instead of giving out advice I will try and be helpful now.
What youtubers are you watching that would give the best hint at the workshop you want to outfit?
Manorwood, and Mike Farrington would be big youtubers in that as little handwork as you can get away with category.
Fair enough, they're workshops are quite large, but maybe you could give other suggestions.
I would think it boils down to what material the youtuber in question is using
and if you wish to go the same route.
It might make a huge difference to your core machinery.
If you have the dough to buy timber when required, then you can buy a month or two in advance.
I would be solely concerned on three core machines, and getting the workshop sorted.
That is if you want to get quality ones, it will take some time to learn what 
pros and cons of various designs and features will suit your workshop.
Stay out of those showrooms!
All the best

Tom


----------



## silz (27 Aug 2020)

@Ttrees

Thanks for your response. You are correct about the castors bit -- all the cabinets & stuff I've built so far for my garage has been on castors and I would've wanted to keep the bandsaw & PT on castors if possible using the provided attachments. It did not occur to me that this might be dangerous so thanks for pointing that out.

What about just using these type of workbendh castors?







In this case the bench/PT/whatever would only be on castors for the time that you move it around and during use it will use its own static structure.

I don't watch a lot of youtubers in particular as it's hard to trust someone's woodworking advice when they're 'sponsored by nord vpn', 'skillshare' type of companies. I do like Jory Brigham's stuff but more from a work-inspiration perspective and he's not really a 'youtuber'. In the early days I used to watch a lot of Steve Ramsey's woodworking for mere mortals. I find youtube mostly great for specific-tool reviews and tricks/tips for using a specific tool.

I'm not really in a rush for anything, I don't intend 'making my money back' in any way shape or form and i'm not even calling it an 'investment' in a financial sense. If anything it's an investment in me & what I enjoy doing but nothing more.


----------



## recipio (27 Aug 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I can't argue with anything else you posted, but I'm not sure this, above, is the whole story. If you stuck a 4HP motor on my bandsaw, it wouldn't improve it much. The limiting factor on mine is the weakness of the bodywork, and thus how much tension can be put on the blade. (OK, the table tilting/ leveling mechanism is useless, too.......). Admittedly there is generally some sort of link between a beefier body and a more powerful motor, but I would still say that having a strong frame and/or body construction is equally as important as power.



Got to agree. Its amazing how many bandsaws have aluminium alloy castings instead of steel tube. However, its nice to use a bandsaw to its full capacity and resawing a 10" board to get veneers for instance needs all the power it can get.


----------



## Ttrees (27 Aug 2020)

Hello again
Bob (myfordman) has plans for those castors if you want to make some up for cheap, I copied his design.
I think the best design on the internet is Carl's though, and another similar design on imported machines probably thousands of years old, I made up two versions of this in metal, both could be improved, but the principal is there.

Wheels could be larger on this one, or closer to the edge on the left set,
could make a sprung latch instead of by gravity.






The same thing with a actual spring and hook to latch might be of use here,
it is kind of a safety feature though this way on steeper ground.








Handy to have a welder if space will be a concern, I make do with these small jobs now with a Lidl welder, It was 50 euros new, I could have got a better one about half the size of the big red one secondhand, if I had the space, defiantly would,
but this Lidl one in the workshop is really teeny not much bigger than a shoebox.

Used machines can be bought for half the price of new, and three phase half the price of that again.

Matt Estlea is one youtuber I forgot to mention earlier, maybe you reminded me by your comment, he might be of interest to watch.
Agreed it is difficult to get an impression of what is what by fancy edited woodworking these days,
Try getting an honest bandsaw video actually seeing how the machine actually copes with resawing, instead of the first inch and the last.

There was a thread titled your favorite youtube woodworker that might have some lesser clickbait channels trying to sell you things,
that would be helpful in sorting out your core machinery, because you can't trust a company selling the thing.

This might put a halt to any mass acquisition of tooling that might be unsuitable in the end of the day.
You seem to say you're not in a rush, but your electron powered shopping list suggests otherwise.
I've gotta still think the former, so going to suggest the youtube thread to find out what you're really after, some are really good.
That router setup is the price of a kitted out spindle moulder.
I have neither a router table nor a spindle moulder, and would think hard about
what would be best not just for the job at hand,
but for the future

One tool at a time, find the Achilles heel in each, figure out if you can make do with that compromise before you buy.

Tom


----------



## heimlaga (27 Aug 2020)

It is possible to make very good products using only the most basic tools if you have time enough to first get skilled with those tools and then apply that skill plus even more time to the product.

If you think your products turn out mediocre even with a good set of hand tools it is either down to your skill level or to a shortage of time and patience or down to too high expectations. Neither of those three possible shortcomings will be cured by spending more money on tools.

Life is a learning curve. My 83 years old uncle told me "right when you have learned to make most of the things you need to make with barely tolerable results and finally reached the stage when you can spend some time learning a few things you have always wanted to learn only because it is interesting then you will realize that you are past 80 and not psysically fit enough".
We learn every day and that is how we keep our brains from getting old prematurely. Learning is a good thing and never bash yourself or anyone else for not having learned enough yet. Only bash yourself and others for not bothering to learn.

All machine tools are essentially there just to increase productivity. Speeding up what took too much time by hand.
I think you started out with very good intentions but got sidetracked by the influence of marketing. They want us believe that we need all those things while in fact we don't.

Personally I don't think a bandsaw is that important in a hobby workshop. Most of what it does can be done with simple hand tools wihout loosing too much time. For many years I used and axe for most of the work typically done on bandsaws. Only when my woodwork became a side income and production runs started to appear I bough one to speed things up. Then I went for a suitably sized one for the work on hand. A 24" E.V.Beronius.

Personally I think a planer/thicknesser is important. Few people theese days have the time to hand plane everything accurately. Times have changed and we must change too. However one can still hand plane the odd piece with particularly difficult grain or which is just too large for the machine.
My opinion is that a planer thicknesser is a machine worth spending money on. Cast iron tables and a solid and accurate frame are important features. I have never used a spiral cutterhead and only rarely felt the need. It is easy enough to plane a bit oversize and take off a shaving with a hand plane if the grain is difficult. The timbers I use don't normally have difficult grain. If you are going to use a lot f difficult grain this will be another matter.

A good table saw saves lots of time. Once again times have changed and we must change too. I would suggest a cabinet saw like a Rapid or Wadkin-Bursgreen AGS or Ejca L18. In my humble opinion cheap benchtop models demand a lot from the user. I am unable to produce a decent result on a lightweight tablesaw and motors under 3kW burn out too easily with ordinary cuts.

An angle grinder is totally unecsessary if you aren't branching out into metal fabrication. If you are going to branch out into metalwork you need a corded one which can be used more efficiently. You also need a welder and a heavy duty drill press........ I think you got sidetracked didn't you?

Spending 2000 pounds on a router and a router table seems way overkill.
I bought my first ever router a couple of years ago. A rather small Makita secondhand for 20 euros. Mainly for fitting hinges. I had no use for a router until I started working wood for profit.
Last year I built myself a super heavy duty professional router table. A Suchner router motor mounted in a cast iron table from an old wood framed spindle moulder whose frame had disappeared decades ago. All on top of a cabinet stand made from 8mm hot rolled plate. Everthing top notch for significantlt less than 1000 euros in total. It is rarely needed but nice to have. However once again I had no need for a router table when I was a pure hobbyist. If you want one you can surely build a good enough one from plywood.

Cramps.
Yes we all need sash cramps. However there are a good supply of rather inexpensive secondhand Record and Woden sash cramps on UK e-bay. If I was living in the UK I would not spend money on anything else because they give the most quality for the money.
Some of my sash cramps are recondhand Record or Woden purchased locally at a higher cost. Some are old cramp heads purchased from the UK and fitted to 25x50x3mm rectangular tubing. I see no need for those expensive parallel cramps.


----------



## Ttrees (27 Aug 2020)

Sebastian, I tried finding that favourite youtube woodworkers thread and couldn't find it which is a shame.
There are many folks on this forum who are in the same boat as yourself, so it would be a shame to leave over taking offence over other folks comments
None of us know your work, or the work you strive to achieve, as the perfectionist is never happy.
Do you have a decent workbench to use those handtools on?
Quite a different beast to whats normally used with electron tools.
I would suggest you watch some of Phil Lowe's videos, he's not a youtuber, but some publication made a great series of him on youtube.
Its a good mixture of hand and machinery and you might change your thoughts about hand tools and powered hand tools.


Other folks whom use hand tools and machinery to make refined stuff might be
to sift through Rob Cosman, but avoid the sales pitch, 
Ishitani funriture, Doucette and wolfe, to see the emphisis is on hand tools .

If you still wish to go that more speedy route then you might like
Guys woodshop, or Jay Bates for example
I suspect if you only followed the latter then that might lead to failure without needing a jig or something else to do a critical step.

Hope you stick around
Tom


----------



## billw (27 Aug 2020)

Has he made a bench hook yet?


----------



## jpor4180 (27 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> @Ttrees
> I'm not really in a rush for anything, I don't intend 'making my money back' in any way shape or form and i'm not even calling it an 'investment' in a financial sense. If anything it's an investment in me & what I enjoy doing but nothing more.



Hey Sebastian, just quoting a post at random to reply to you.

First of all, well done for staying patient for so long I read the start of the thread this morning over breakfast and I would have snapped at that point but didn't have time. By the time I got in from golf it's just become laughable. You'd be well within your rights to not come back but please bear with it as the forum can on occassion be helpful. I personally prefer to linger now and again than ask for help.

Don't apologise so much in future for "being unclear". You were perfectly clear, it's just you got responses from people answering a question they wanted to answer, rather than the question you've asked. I'm going to deflect a bit of the fire away from you; firstly by criticizing the arrogant, unwelcoming and patronising approach of others and secondly by saying I've spent over £30k on my workshop in the last 6 years and an average of about what you've done. I'd have spent it in one year if I'd had the money, I'm 24, family not minted, all money I've earned and paid tax on and not come out of some carpentry business pre tax write-off. There's no rule that you have to spend a certain amount or that you're any less of a woodworker if you haven't chopped a mortice out with your teeth before graduating to a chisel, what a joke. You're not crazy for spending that much in a year, it's only £400 a month, people spend that on car finance. It's your money, and working to the assumption that you've earned it through legal means then it's also nobody else's business. The mistakes you've made in cheaper tools you're dissatisfied with is something the majority of people do, and only a certain number of those actually learn from it. It's all part of the education - and as I can see you've said you've learned a lot so far and are looking to keep progressing with that.

About 15 years ago, the generally accepted figure for setting up a workshop was £10k. While possible, there's lots of things even back then that were excluded from calculations. If you were wondering, the amount you've suggested you're looking at spending seems about right. Bear in mind, that this is start up, of course every now and again you'll tinker and change your mind on stuff and it'll creep up.

In between all the patronising there were some good questions asked, but you may not know the answer to it yet. What do you make and what would you like to make? If this is just a hobby (which is absolutely fine by the way) it may happen that you change every now and again in terms of what you make. As a result, a "general approach" workshop might be best.

If you perhaps attach a diagram with your garage layout dimensions please including doors, we can all work together to see how you're doing for space and what a good layout will be. For what it's worth, I also have a large single garage but I've also built an extension to house my dust extractor and wood lathe. If it helps, here is what I have:

In the garage:
Wadkin CK Radial arm saw
JET 3hp 18" bandsaw
Wadkin AGS10 Table saw
Sedgwick MB planer thicknesser

In the extension:
JET some kind of dust extractor, I don't even know what
Myford ML8 lathe

Also an entire wall of my garage is dedicated bench space. Bench tops are festool mft style (you can buy them cnc cut in 8x4 sheet sizes). These are pretty useful for tracksaws for cross cutting, makes it pretty easy to build in a router table and make fences up for a the radial arm saw. 

All the above in the main garage area I think would be good candidates for machines for you. I bought everything there second hand and I did spend a long time looking around to work out prices before pulling the trigger on any - I'm confident I'd recoup any investment if I sold them, which I won't. The radial arm saw I bought because I wanted it, that's all. I picked up a second hand Festool Kapex 120 for £450 recently. That was definitely worth the money, I was a bit dubious because I'm actually not a festool nut and even on the owner's group a lot of people do say they can take it or leave it. I prefer it to the Bosch GCM12 I've also used, but that's a good option. I've still got a dewalt 216mm mitre saw which gets used for framing whenever I do that as it's light enough to lug around. When I get round to my loft conversion, it'll be the cheap old 216 that will be used. The Kapex is accurate enough for cutting shoulders for tenons - horses for courses.

If possible, please have a think about buying second hand equipment. I am a bit of an enthusiast for old british stuff (only bought the JET stuff as it was available for a very low price, but I am delighted with the bandsaw). The main things to check for are that surfaces are flat (check using a thin straight edge across many different lines), things that move do, and things that shouldn't don't. Also, if stuff is missing it can be very expensive to get machined up as parts can be hard to come by - even then it'll still be cheaper and outlast most things that can be bought new. That said, if you want to buy new, you do you. Record Power bandsaws are well regarded I know that, and I'm sure you'll be happy enough with the axminster stuff. As for the stuff you put on your want to have list I can't really speak for much of it, as I've no experience personally. For me, the Festool router is the power I'd want in a 1/4" router. I'd like to own one for their superior dust extraction but I'd only use it for detail stuff, or things without massive power requirements. I use my router to make mortices so for that I find the Makita RP2301 ( I think it is anyway) to be dead useful. For my router table I use the Triton TRA001 (again I think, it's their most powerful one anyway). It's a weapon but I think it's too much to be used free hand and it isn't weighted or handled correctly for that. As for router tables, I've made them myself, all sorts. Once you've priced up all the MRMDF, formica, aluminium t tracks, etc etc that you'd use to make it (and your time you could use to make something you want to make) you may feel it's better off buying. If you make one built into a long bank of benches it's pretty efficient and will work well for 95% of what you want to do. I also have the Trend PRT as if I'm going off to do a job for someone, paid or a friend, or I'm renovating my house, it's so easy to move around and is also great quality, unquestionably flat. Again, I bought it second hand. The festool vacuums are worth the money - bought one second hand for £150. 

If you use your track saw a lot, it might be worth upgrading. I bought the Makita and it's okay but I've been having issues lately with blade wobble - haven't got round to checking it against a thicker blade to see if it's just that it's deflecting. When I do upgrade, it will be for the Mafell. It's made tonnes of mdf fitted furniture and paid for itself many times over so if you do use yours a lot, I think you'll reap the rewards of upgrading. Again, these do work exceptionally well when paired up with mft style tables. 

The spiral thicknesser - have a look into this and weigh up if it's definitely what you want. I bought my sedgwick mb off someone who had "upgraded" to a helical cutter, he regretted it. You can't take off as much stock with a spiral cutter at once. A good quality PT with sharp blades I would say gives you a great finish for most applications - occassionally I'll burnish the pieces with the chips on the floor, no real sanding required. Spiral thicknessers work great on stuff like figured maple. Again, if it's what you want then go for it.

Cordless angle grinders are great for quick jobs, on site or working on a car. If it's only getting used in the workshop for carving work I'd just buy a used one from a brand like Makita, Dewalt - it's not a precision tool and £30 will still get you a good condition used one I'd imagine.

I don't know if you mentioned it, but have you had your electrician out to tell you how much power you can get out to the shop? If you can do more than 32A, try to do that. Start up currents of machines can be quite tasty, and if you've got a dust extractor running at the same time, a 40A supply would be much better. I think you might be aiming a little low on your £300 for electrics. I dug my own trench to my garage, and installed all the sockets and conduit for the spark. I'd have glady wired it myself but you need an electrician sign off anyway. My electrician underpriced his labour woefully so it cost me less than £450 all in to do and £300 was materials. All dependent on number of sockets of course, but £1000 would have been perfectly reasonable in the south east, even with the amount of work I did myself.

Feel free to private message me or reply on here if you can face it if you've got any questions, I know what I've written doesn't give you much advice on everything you've suggested buying as I just can't give you personal experience.


----------



## jpor4180 (27 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> @Trevanion
> 
> I use the router table setup that i have (1/4" 18v makita trimmer with the 40gbp insert plate & all else built of birch plywood by me) mostly for box joints/dovetails (using a jig)/rabbets/half-lap. I can see the appeal of a 'full blown' setup like in this list (totaling 2000+ gbp) in order to get more accurate/repeatable results without effort. But I agreed right from the get go that it isn't something I'd benefit spending so much of my budget on although I still have <some> routing needs.
> 
> View attachment 90915


Hopefully the router set up you've attached will come through. This is fact and not my opinion: that router table is better than anything you or anyone else can make themselves. I thought about buying it myself. The only reason I didn't is because I don't have the space in my garage for a standalone router table without sacrificing some other functionality. In buying the PRT I found I could get close enough and have portability. The festool router you've attached is great, but for a router table, something like the Triton/Hikoki is a better option.

2 grand on this set up is not stupid. Again, sorry people who should have known better made you feel it was. Yes, a spindle moulder set up can be had for about this price. For this though, you need the space and power to run them. I'd have a spindle moulder if I could, they are cool. But the reason they are cheap is because there are more about than the hobbyist market can support (I think most of the older ones breach health and safety requirements without modification for a multimanned commercial outfit based on stopping speeds hence why there isn't huge commericial interest in them).

I've never spoken to anyone who regretted buying that cast iron table. I know a lot of commerical outfits who get by on a self made unit. As before, I'm a big fan of long bench integrated routers. They work so well, and you may find you can get by with this set up while you prioritise other things in the workshop. Space allowing, I wouldn't cross the cast iron unit off of your list just because of a couple of internet bullies


----------



## Sideways (27 Aug 2020)

Jump right to the end game.
Consider spending £2,000 apiece for a fully (properly) restored Wadkin / Startrite / Sedgwick table saw and another £2,000 for a similarly restored Sedgwick PT 10" planer thicknesser. Those machines are better than anything you will buy new at that price.
Hopefully those would be lifetime buys of two of the most useful tools and biggest investments. They would also hold their values if you look after them.
Then continue saving for the dust extraction (when you want to work with the doors closed / reduce the sweeping up) and whatever is your next priority.


----------



## MikeG. (27 Aug 2020)

Sideways said:


> Consider spending £2,000 apiece for a fully (properly) restored Wadkin / Startrite / Sedgwick table saw and another £2,000 for a similarly restored Sedgwick PT 10" planer thicknesser.........



Wonderful machines, but do you honestly think he's got room for them in a single garage?


----------



## Spectric (27 Aug 2020)

Hi all

Are you setting up a business or is this just a hobby and whats your end product. 

When I started I brought a few basic tools and then as I came across different problems or needs I either purchased the relevant tool or found jigs that allowed me to use existing tools. I like yourself work in a garage and so all tools need to be essential otherwise you run out of space, leaving the world of metal and trying a new interest in the scary world of wood I have realised that with wood it is the final look/finish that is important and not the final dimension, so you do not need elaborate tooling and fancy router tables to deliver good quality work. Also wood requires some odd skills that even having the best machines available will not resolve.

The one thing you will soon find is that unless you pay really good money for industrial grade machines then you will be looking at many rebranded clones that come from the far east and many will not deliver straight out of the box. Look at getting some of the videos that are out there on setting up bandsaws etc as it will ease the frustration and give you a better start.


----------



## AJB Temple (27 Aug 2020)

Re space....As I have pretty much finished my quite large (10m by 8m) kitchen that was for a while my luxury temporary workshop, and now need to fit out the adjacent utility, I have just shifted my temporary set up to an oak framed, oversized, double garage I made. In there I have my big assembly table (2440 sheet), my 12" chop saw and a small cast iron table saw. Plus a number of wheeled racks to hold all the random stuff I need and a couple of trestles to hold some of my immediate use wood stocks.

I barely have a path around the assembly / cutting table. There is no way I could operate with a PT, saws, assembly table etc in a single garage unless I was just making small things. I am handling for example 2440 x 1220 heavy (24mm) sheet BB ply and 4 metre planks of hardwood. You need space to work, whatever anyone says, or it is hazardous and slow.


----------



## Doug B (27 Aug 2020)

MikeG. said:


> Wonderful machines, but do you honestly think he's got room for them in a single garage?


Yes,


----------



## MikeG. (27 Aug 2020)

Doug B said:


> Yes,



Really? It's not like they're easily movable. With all his other kit, and a bench, and bearing in mind where they'll need to stand to be able to take longer boards, you honestly think he's got the space in 15 sq m?


----------



## Doug B (27 Aug 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Re space....As I have pretty much finished my quite large (10m by 8m) kitchen that was for a while my luxury temporary workshop, and now need to fit out the adjacent utility, I have just shifted my temporary set up to an oak framed, oversized, double garage I made. In there I have my big assembly table (2440 sheet), my 12" chop saw and a small cast iron table saw. Plus a number of wheeled racks to hold all the random stuff I need and a couple of trestles to hold some of my immediate use wood stocks.
> 
> I barely have a path around the assembly / cutting table. There is no way I could operate with a PT, saws, assembly table etc in a single garage unless I was just making small things. I am handling for example 2440 x 1220 heavy (24mm) sheet BB ply and 4 metre planks of hardwood. You need space to work, whatever anyone says, or it is hazardous and slow.



It’s just a case of being organised & it helps having machines on casters, I have far more gear than the OP was talking about & I will admit when making multiple units I have to store the made up units out of the workshop but it’s never hazardous & with a clear plan not slow.
At the minute I’m making 4 large frames from 9x4” redwood I’d like more space but I’ve managed with what I’ve got for the last 16 years so I doubt I’ll change it now.


----------



## Doug B (27 Aug 2020)

MikeG. said:


> Really? It's not like they're easily movable. With all his other kit, and a bench, and bearing in mind where they'll need to stand to be able to take longer boards, you honestly think he's got the space in 15 sq m?


Both my planer thicknesser & table saw are bigger than those mentioned by Sideways so still yes.


----------



## heimlaga (27 Aug 2020)

Sideways said:


> Jump right to the end game.
> Consider spending £2,000 apiece for a fully (properly) restored Wadkin / Startrite / Sedgwick table saw and another £2,000 for a similarly restored Sedgwick PT 10" planer thicknesser. Those machines are better than anything you will buy new at that price.
> Hopefully those would be lifetime buys of two of the most useful tools and biggest investments. They would also hold their values if you look after them.
> Then continue saving for the dust extraction (when you want to work with the doors closed / reduce the sweeping up) and whatever is your next priority.



This was pretty much my point though I didn't make it clear enough.

There are certain machines that add so much efficiency thereby allowing one man to make what three men made with hand tools in the past that they are worth spending money on. Usually rather basic machines. Tabe saw and planer and thicknesser are prime examples.

Then there are machines intended to make people believe that they can buy their way up the learning curve. Get that machine and always get good results without learning.

My oppinion is that one should always try to not spend a single penny on the second group and focus all the purchase power on the first group.


----------



## Ttrees (27 Aug 2020)

Floor smoothness (as in tamped concrete with ridges)
makes a big difference in moving machines, as does
castor size and machine shape.
I chose to make it difficult to wheel away my tablesaw with 55mm castors but both are still easily movable.
Bandsaws are easiest pushed from a low point compared to a TS, but will be easy to keep going on quality 75mm castors (I chose not to buy quality ones that might wheel out of my workshop)
More easily movable 95mm castors on the curve cutter saw, moves nearly too easy actually, and will run over chips and ridges.

Its the stacks of timber that takes the time, if moving things about.


----------



## Coyote (27 Aug 2020)

What you've said, right in the title of this post, is that you need to spend north of £9k on a workshop in a year.

Your original post contained very little information for others here to begin giving particularly helpful advice and it really did sound like you were just wanting someone to help you spend your money, perhaps unnecessarily.

If you've got that much disposable income to spend on tools then fair play. It's your money, spend it how you like. I wish I had half that much.

However this is a forum where people often look for ways to achieve what they want without dropping big money on shiny new hardware, so rolling in "flashing the cash" jars a bit with the general tone. 

I think the best way to approach advice here is tell people what you want to achieve. What is the end result you want to get to, and why can't you don't with what you've got? That way the people with a staggering depth of experience on here can actually provide some useful advice. If you've been on here a while you'll notice that "what tool shall I buy" threads appear multiple times a day, and most of them never reach a useful conclusion for the OP, because it's all just opinion. 

It's like asking the army for help in a crisis. You don't tell them you want a helicopter, you ask them how they can move 50,000 sandbags from one end of the country to the other in 12 hours, then they give you some options of the best way to achieve it. 

This forum is an amazing resource, for free. Don't junk it after a bad start.


----------



## AJB Temple (27 Aug 2020)

Doug, I salute you. I am clumsy with wood and if it is possible for me to bang a plank against something, I will.


----------



## silz (27 Aug 2020)

@DOUG

I don't know why some people are worried about the space in my garage, there's plenty of space for 4 large tools and a bench.

Even with an empty garage, how realistic is it to be dealing with full-sized sheets inside the garage itself? I always pull out the saw horses in the driveway to handle that and if a project ever gets too big I just overflow into the driveway.

I currently have about ~19sqm with a driveway that would easily fit 3 cars which is more than enough space and we plan on moving to a bigger house with a double garage or room for a dedicated workshop in ~1.5 years anyway. But even if we don't, I'm content with the curent space.


----------



## cammy9r (27 Aug 2020)

To be honest this forum is full of old fuddyduddys AND helpful folk its just your pot luck who reads and replies.
If the OP wants to buys lots of tools let him, be they powered or manual. I dont see why so many had to be so condescending, no need really. Many on here have a stick up the butt when it comes to filling your workshop FULL of tools and machines because they churn out nice work using only flint and muscle.
So he spends money on tools and has a good budget, £6K is the two uppermost drawers of my mechanics toolbox. In fact £6K would not even buy my coworker's toolbox, horses for courses I think they say. He was only asking an opinion on the brands of the machines he was looking at. I myself have about £4K of record power machines that have only just run out of warranty and they have performed well enough for me when making my kitchen, interior doors, radiator covers, office desks some nice built ins and lots of other odds and sods. I have never planned what i want to make so could not answer that question but i have the ability to make it should i need. My workshop in 30sqm and still I have plenty of room to get stuff done. However none of this is what the OP asked.
Sebastian, I believe ITech and SIP are very similar machines even with some of the axminster ones too but the internals might not be the same if the pricing is greatly differing. It is worth trying to research how these are put together if possible, if not then get one with the longer warranty (probably axy stuff).
Anyway I wish you all the best in the future with your projects.
PS can you ask the fuddyduddys about sharpening and DIY electrical Installations


----------



## AJB Temple (27 Aug 2020)

Sebastian, I try quite hard not to be rude or sucked into antagonistic threads. I think the opening post of a thread is quite crucial. My reading of your position was that you had been woodworking a couple of years, had spent quite a lot on tools, and had produced, in your own words, firewood. This signals things to people who have been doing this for a long time. There are some really expert people on here, and I have learned a lot from many of them. I can't recall ever getting into a slanging match thread. 

My advice to get the best from this place, is tell people clearly what you are trying to do and what your gear actually is and a sensible self appraisal of your skill level. No one is point scoring here: in my experience over the past few years, members have gone out of their way to help me. 

OK, I am not a novice, but there are dozens of things I am weak at or have not done before. My policy when asking for advice is to provide context. It is impossible to recommend gear without that. For example I commented on the Domino. Based on my experience of both machines. I tried to make clear what I use them for so that you can decide if that context is relevant to you. 

It is pointless on Internet forums saying "I am leaving as you are all horrible". Just take a deep breath and think if your approach is getting you want you want. There are real skills here at your disposal for free. Dump this thread and start again. Show us some of your work.


----------



## Ttrees (27 Aug 2020)

Jory Brigham does some nice work, thanks for that!
I have had only a glance yet at his stuff (not for long)

Have you studied how he makes furniture Sebastian?
A lot of it looks like all solid hardwoods at the top of the line.
I suggest you look up some forum members like Custard, Derek Cohen, or David C
and forget about anything handheld with electrons for now, unless its a router.

Just a guess by looking at Jory's stuff that he doesn't use much electron powered hand tools and relies on decent machinery, not a cheap outfit of imported aluminium stuff.
He might do now. but I get the impression that at one time he may have had only hand tools and some machinery only, and maybe a router or three.

As I was saying, its worth researching three core quality machines, but forgot to mention search for three at a time, and you might find one of those used for cheap.
You can do a lot of research if you want value, and go for suitable machines
that are easily compatable with VFD's for instance.
A lot of three phase iron can be bought for just 500 quid or even much less again, if you've got a way to make safety fixtures or fix things.
You need to move those machines and those bases you can buy look a bit flimsy.

That's why my advice about the welder was kind of in jest, but practical if you're not in a rush situation.

Tom


----------



## AJB Temple (27 Aug 2020)

Cammy. One man's fuddy daddy is another man's voice of experience. In general young men think their father knows nothing. As they get older they are amazed at how much their father has learned.


----------



## silz (27 Aug 2020)

@jpor4180 

Thank you for such a detailed & kind response, you've provided some really helpful insight there, I'll zig-zag a bit through your message, hopefully that won't be an issue.

On the electrics, I'm making the assumption that I will not need to change the wire itself. The property itself is a newbuilt and the electrics to that side of the house are supposed to handle the eventual upgrade to an electric car charger hence why I'm assuming all I'll need to upgrade is the sockets itself and the breaker.

I've already asked for quotes and have 0 intention on doing any of the work myself. Option B would be to just go all in and add a full 100amp and an electric car charger if the existing wire is not good enough for 32 amps. I would try to avoid investing too much in the electrics due to our intention to move though.

Wow that Triton router is an absolute beast! It hasn't even been on my radar at all! This is exactly why I wanted to ask here -- i think i've learnt about ~10 new brands to consider and get a better/cheaper overall setup for my money.

I've been tempted by some used Festool stuff but most of the things I've found so far look quite used & abused for a mere 20-30% discount, it might also be the COVID situation as I did notice a lot of DIY tools stocks have ran out for most companies.

That PT is quite nice but sadly quite out of my budget as well.

Which one would you choose in the context of my budget between the AT260SPT at 1.65k and AC250PT at 0.85k? 

If I could help it I'd prefer getting the cheaper one as I wouldn't have to worry about 16 AMP/electrics and i'd be able to have some budget left over for other tools.

On the other hand I feel like I don't want to skimp on the PT itself as it seems like such a core tool when it comes to working with sawn timber.


----------



## AJB Temple (27 Aug 2020)

Ah, Cammy the confidence of literalism. Older heads may say "let's check he's not asking the wrong question, in case that changes the answer".


----------



## AJB Temple (27 Aug 2020)

Sebastian. Home car chargers for the latest batteries consume a lot of juice. I have a Tesla Model X and I had to run in extra armoured to supply that in an outbuilding, opting for a dedicated supply. Typically, the home charger stations will max out at a 32amp supply. Make sure your electrician is experienced with electric car charger installations and make sure your internet also reaches that point (or software updates, which are frequent, will be a real pain).


----------



## billw (27 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> I'm not looking for *<what do i need to buy to get started with woodworking>. *I'm by no means 'good' at this but I have been consistently woodworking for 2+ years now. It's just that this year was the first time I had the opportunity to get a proper home workshop.



I confess this confuses me somewhat, and I am not sure the OP has sufficiently answered some of the subsequent questions.

If this is a hobby, then why have loads of machinery right at the beginning? I mean for a hobbyist surely it's more about working with your hands, with limited tools and building up skills? I mean I'd love some machinery sure, but I'm not going to build the Ark so a bandsaw with a 100mm capacity would probably do 95% of the work I needed, thus I can't really justify spending 3x/4x on a larger one to do the remaining 5% when I can just buy PAR or lap narrower boards.

If he's not "good" at woodworking, then is the machinery expected to simply achieve quick and accurate results rather than the age-old method of trial and error? Having a hobby is meant to start hard and get easier isn't it? Nobody starts playing golf and expects to be Tiger Woods within a week. Some people will probably spend a vast sum of money on clubs but still play like they're drunk and blindfolded.

This all just reminds me of when I used to do trackdays and occasionally you'd get someone in their 20s rock up with a track-prepped Ferrari on a trailer accompanied by all the gear and clothing, and then spend the day getting overtaken by someone with talent in a Ford Fiesta. However, they probably didn't really care and just wanted to have a day out with a very expensive toy because they could, and fair play to them. Total and utter waste of a Ferrari though in my opinion.

So the question of motive remains, unless I've missed it. I think many of the replies have essentially been well-meaning, but perhaps not come across that way.


----------



## silz (27 Aug 2020)

@AJB Temple Nice! I appreciate the advice, I'm definitely not going to cheap out on any of that. Last thing I want to do is hack things together in an unsafe matter. 

I've definitely learnt my lesson on how to ask the question. I thought I was being extra helpful/tedious by providing the spreadsheets. I literally wanted to avoid people suggesting I buy other <type> of tools or doing <something else>. But it is what it is, tomorrow's another day!


----------



## cammy9r (27 Aug 2020)

Trevanion said:


> It does matter a bit, I can't recommend a machine without knowing what it's actually going to be used for. If you want to buy a bandsaw to cut dolls house components you don't really need anything more than a benchtop jobbie but if you plan on ripping down 300mm depth boards you need something with a bit more substance and in effect, more money.


OP has already mentioned he WILL be making a seating bench and a dining table, is that not enough for you to make your recommendation, perhaps not. No point on giving recommendations based on what has already been made as, it appears it has already been made without your recommended tooling.


----------



## Trevanion (27 Aug 2020)

cammy9r said:


> OP has already mentioned he WILL be making a seating bench and a dining table, is that not enough for you to make your recommendation, perhaps not. No point on giving recommendations based on what has already been made as, it appears it has already been made without your recommended tooling.



I don't really see what else Sebastian *needs* that he hasn't already got to make his bench and dining table though. I generally work on an "I'll buy it when I need it" premise because I won't need it until I need it and in that meantime, there may be an excellent deal somewhere that's irresistible and I may pick it up at that point because it works out better.

If it were me, I'd be prioritising getting an excellent planer thicknesser more than anything else because you spend a good chunk of your time in this hobby/trade/industry just planing timber and every effort should be made to have the best results possible with the least effort and headache. I'd personally either be buying a refurbished oldie such as a Sedgwick or to refurbish myself because it will end up being a life-time machine which nothing new could compete against pound for pound. But I understand that isn't to everyone's taste.


----------



## cammy9r (27 Aug 2020)

A P/T was what he was asking about (one of the things) to upgrade. The info above is what your first post could have been as it is sound advice but i dont think he is up for the challenge of the heavy cast stuff. I would love lots of old cast machinery but the logistics of it due to weight and a wooden floor have always put me off.


----------



## Trevanion (27 Aug 2020)

cammy9r said:


> The info above is what your first post could have been as it is sound advice



It _could've_ been my first post, but I don't want to push someone down a money pit when you may not need to.

You don't buy an articulated lorry for city driving and you don't buy a Renault Clio to tow 10 tonnes, it's all about context.


----------



## Fitzroy (27 Aug 2020)

I’ve pal who’s been playing golf for 5 years and plays off low single figures. He has a good income and bought expensive clubs straight off the bat. He took lessons and practiced hard. He’s never felt any need to change his clubs, he bought a different style of putter as he outskilled his original one. He sold that on for good money second hand as it was a classy make. Yes in his first months he played like a drunk blind man, and wasted lots of expensive Callaway golf balls in the lakes and bushes! 

I’m envious of someone who is able, financially and mindfully, to go in big time like the OP. However I’m not sure I see a downside of buying top end straight away. The risk is you don’t like woodworking and loose money selling them cheap to the rest of us  

There’s I guess the risk you want to make small things, for which big tools may actually be a disadvantage, but I’d assume no one is daft enough to look at a 12” PT and a 300mm bandsaw for cutting small bits of wood. 

F


----------



## Doug B (27 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> @DOUG
> 
> I don't know why some people are worried about the space in my garage, there's plenty of space for 4 large tools and a bench.
> 
> ...


That’s not dissimilar to the space I have, the trick I found is sorting out work flow particularly with regard to prepping timber.

My bandsaw is higher than my workbench & saw/spindle which it sits between so timber can be sawn without moving anything.
My planer thicknesser & saw/spindle are on casters so they can be moved towards the centre of the shop if I need to work on long lengths.

I can process 8x4 sheets for this I use a track saw with the sheet on bearers on top of the workbench which is to one side in the centre of the shop as every thing revolves around it.
I’ve not bothered with a ducted dust extraction system I just have a 5m long 6” flexible hose that I take to each machine as it’s needed. This is the most important thing I think when working in a small workshop, dealing with shavings & dust at source, it increases productivity & maintains a safe working environment.
Personally I’ve looked to buy more industrial type machines even though there is only me working in the shop as the build quality is generally much better, that said it’s my livelihood so budget restrictions aren’t what they would be if it were my hobby.


----------



## Hornbeam (27 Aug 2020)

This thread has raised lots of questions and lots of emotions.
I have built my workshop up over 30 years. 80% of my tools are second hand but if I had to go out and replace everything new tomorrow youre probably looking a £20k (sobering thought for the insurance perspective). If someone has enough finance to buy a whole new workshop from scratch then fine. The fact is new tools can be really expensive and when you look at teh list most of the machines are not what I would call professional quality.
If you want to work with rough sawn timber then a PT is a must, 10 inches is good but what ever width you get you will always have a project that is slightly wider than capacity. I would focus your money on this key piece of kit.
Bandsaw. I agree with Steve that I would put this slightly above a table saw but it is also surprising what curved work you can do with a quality jigsaw
Bobbin sander unless you have a specific use then I would say of limited value
Domino jointer are a bit marmite. They are incredibly quick and efficient but what will it give you over mortice and tennons other than speed. M+T can also be cut quite quickly with a router and a router table
Router table set up. I dont think a cast iron top will give you anything over a home build set up. Home build also allows you to tailor the design to suit. The 2 key issues are accuracy of fence and depth adjustment. I wouldnt waste money on a very expensive router in a table. I did spend the money on a Jessem lift and dedicated motor fro Peter Sefton, The whole lot worked out including table build at about 40% of your estimate. For my type of work I find the router table better than a spindle would be.
My approach would be fewer tools/machines but best for your budget. As said previously what you want to make will dictate the tools you buy. You can almost always make smaller things on larger tools but not the other way round. The down side of this is bigger tools take up more space/power supply issues etc. The other advantage of buying less equipment is that you have time to learn how to use it properly and safely. It is surprising how versatile some machines can be with a little though and development of jigs.
Hand tool skills are the fundamental of any craft. Power tool and machines make things easier and faster but they also make mistakes much faster. Although I use machines a lot I cannot underestimate the their importance so I would also recommend a strong look in this area
These comments/pointers are made with the best of intentions and are no way meant to be patronising or critical,
We are often quite critical of our own work whereas others may be extremely positive. My advice is to select projects which will develop use of tools/new skills and deliver end results that you are proud of ( my dog still gets the odd cock up to chew while she sits in the woodshavings waiting until she can go and spread them around the house)
Good luck with your purchases and progression. Dont be put off by previous comments, I am 100% certain they were all made with genuine intentions
Ian


----------



## jpor4180 (28 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> On the electrics, I'm making the assumption that I will not need to change the wire itself. The property itself is a newbuilt and the electrics to that side of the house are supposed to handle the eventual upgrade to an electric car charger hence why I'm assuming all I'll need to upgrade is the sockets itself and the breaker.
> 
> I've already asked for quotes and have 0 intention on doing any of the work myself. Option B would be to just go all in and add a full 100amp and an electric car charger if the existing wire is not good enough for 32 amps. I would try to avoid investing too much in the electrics due to our intention to move though.


I'm no spark, but I've done my fair share of rewiring etc. So please take the following as my understanding, liable to be corrected by someone more experienced/qualified. I've had a quick google and it does look that 32A charger points for cars go on a 40A breaker and that would be really good news. A 40A breaker would be ideal as once you've got lights and some bathroom extractor fans going (I have two, bang for buck this is a great dust extraction method for fine particulates) that might be 6A, a suitably sized dust extractor might draw 7-10A, your planer thicknesser on full chat might also pull 10A. These amperages are lower than the plug they are on and I think that's to account for start up current I believe. Start up current for single phase machines can be pretty big. A 40A breaker won't (and shouldn't) trip straight away if more current than this is drawn. In fact there are many types of breakers that need to be picked by your spark based on acceptable trip time. Essentially, I think 32A breaker would be tight based on my experience, but 40A gives you good breathing space, and it looks like you should be good for 40A but of course your electrician will be able to tell you this at the quote stage.



> Wow that Triton router is an absolute beast! It hasn't even been on my radar at all! This is exactly why I wanted to ask here -- i think i've learnt about ~10 new brands to consider and get a better/cheaper overall setup for my money.


Yeah it's pretty good, it's a treat to use. I've heard good things about the Hikoki/Hitachi as well, as mentioned by someone earlier, but I've had no personal experience with it. But yes, I don't think you can go wrong with that Triton, it adjusts quite well when mounted in the table which is great.



> I've been tempted by some used Festool stuff but most of the things I've found so far look quite used & abused for a mere 20-30% discount, it might also be the COVID situation as I did notice a lot of DIY tools stocks have ran out for most companies.


I happily buy machines second hand but I really don't enjoy buying second hand power tools. They are used and abused as you say. There's no doubt Festool are better than the more general contractor brands, but the price new and used can be tough to stomach. There are also other good brands such as Mafell, Lamello, Fein and Mirka which are on the same level or higher as Festool in certain specialties. My experience with power tools, used in shop and on site is that they are limited life span, there's no doubt about that. Owning an expensive one out of warranty isn't an enjoyable experience and is best avoided - it just so happens that now and then one comes about cheap enough to absorb that risk. I definitely think you'll get good value out of the Domino you've picked however. I don't have one, but my mum's boyfriend does. He's very happy but does tell me that he's had issues with snapping bits if his dust extractor has filled up and he's not noticed. I'm weighing up getting the mafell duo doweller, that would be a similar alternative just in case you'd not seen that - domino more tried and tested realistically so possibly the better bet.



> That PT is quite nice but sadly quite out of my budget as well.
> 
> Which one would you choose in the context of my budget between the AT260SPT at 1.65k and AC250PT at 0.85k?
> 
> ...


Electrics aside for now and just comparing them side by side, I would say the 260 looks substantially beefier. If you're able to go see them in store it might help guide a decision but I've had a look and your nearest stores are both about an hour and a half away (Nuneaton and High Wycombe). Looking at photos, the cast iron surface on the 260 looks more substantial than the 250 and that's definitely a good thing. I won't lie, both seem pretty noisy from the specifications but I don't think the noise specification is correct for the SPT, because I know for a fact spiral cutters are significantly quieter and the rated 89Db is the same as on its sibling model Axminster Trade AT260PT Planer Thicknesser - this is one option budget wise. I vaguely recall looking at these as it happens. Please check with Axminster but I do believe that you could buy the standard 260PT and later upgrade the cutter head. Overall this would in all liklihood work out more expensive, but it would give you a very good PT to get working on and maybe a year or two down the line you could upgrade to a spiral block. My guess is that either 260 model is going to to be powerful enough to run smoothly with a nice hum, which might be easier on your neighbours than that Craft model. There's few sounds as grating as an overworked PT imho!

I actually didn't know much about the MB when I bought it, it just turned up for the right price and I did a quick (couple of hours) research and took the punt, turned out to be quite a good choice. I think I only paid £1400 for mine, but it is 3 phase and those do tend to turn up cheaper as to run three phase is a bit of a mission in itself, this may be a path to look at once you've moved to your next house as it requires a bit more planning for electrics, hardware to run etc, and there's perfectly good single phase options as you've found. It's older than the ones seen on the Axminster site by some margin (80s maybe?) still quite young by my standards and has been upgraded to the TERSA cutter block. Looking at the ones on the Axminster site, 6 grand or so, seems quite expensive. I doubt it's ~3x the machine of the Axminster Trade. The 260 models look decent, skipped through a couple of youtube videos just to hear them running as see different angles and I don't think you'd regret it. All I will say, is a PT thicknesser is something where you'll always want a little bit more width and it might be worth seeing what you can get on the 12" side of things before making a final decision. I am not an expert on newer machines so I don't really know what is about but there's a Startrite SD31/Record Power PT310 (the same machine as far as i can tell only looked briefly, same parent company). In non coronavirus times I believe Record Power does a few shows where discounts can be had (maybe someone else can confirm). Perhaps a deal breaker as I don't think you can get these with a helical cutter head.

I'd speak to your electrician about cost, but if you're doing it at the same time as running your 13A sockets, adding a circuit for 16A sockets shouldn't be outrageous. Maybe start another thread, and see if we can get a shop layout together for you so you put a 16A commando where you need them, but with your breaker capabilities, I think you'll unlock better quality tools if you can stomach 16A sockets over 13A. The price difference for parts for a ring of 16A commandos alongside a ring of 13A sockets will be less than £100 over just 13A sockets.


----------



## MikeG. (28 Aug 2020)

jpor4180 said:


> ...... All I will say, is a PT thicknesser is something where you'll always want a little bit more width and it might be worth seeing what you can get on the 12" side of things before making a final decision. .........



I couldn't agree more. I have a 10" PT, and keep running into its limits. Through-and-through oak boards, for instance, even after I've ripped them down from waney edge, are often 400+mm wide. If you have a 10" PT, you'll end up hand planing quite a lot, or looking for a friend with a bigger machine.


----------



## cammy9r (28 Aug 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Ah, Cammy the confidence of literalism. Older heads may say "let's check he's not asking the wrong question, in case that changes the answer".


Nothing wrong with that. However, the older heads seem to have missed that Sebastian asked clearly enough about (in bold font) about which of the 2 P/T's he was looking at was probably the better option. Then he asked what to look for in a bandsaw as there are many variants of models that all look the same. Then came the router, he could spend £2k but is it worth it. He would like to know of quality brands of routers. He would likely build his own table. Next, the bobbin sander. His choice of the axy one, is it a good bet? he has no experience with one. Now the festool domino had me slightly confused as it seemed more of a statement of choice rather than a question. So to me he had already decided on the smaller version.
Near the end of his post he wrote :
Any advice around the _*choices/potential alternatives*_ or just ways to *bring the overall cost down* is greatly appreciated as I have little practical experience with the above beyond digital research.
He did get replies about the bring overall costs down part and not so much about alternatives.
The questions seemed correct to me and no need for the older heads to check anything other than their memories of how they chose their tools and whether they found the brand of good enough quality.


----------



## Wildman (28 Aug 2020)

Steve Maskery said:


> Track saw, I forgot about that. Best way to handle sheet goods, short of having an Altendorf


I have done without a track saw or similar for 50 odd years but as I get older and the workshop fills up have started to build a wall mounted sheet saw and wonder why I never thought of it before. Perfect for handling sheet materials without the need to pull out trestles and wait for it to stop raining or having 8ft of space on all sides of a table saw. it will make life a lot easier


----------



## Droogs (28 Aug 2020)

Wildman said:


> I have done without a track saw or similar for 50 odd years but as I get older and the workshop fills up have started to build a wall mounted sheet saw and wonder why I never thought of it before. Perfect for handling sheet materials without the need to pull out trestles and wait for it to stop raining or having 8ft of space on all sides of a table saw. it will make life a lot easier


They do take up a hell of a lot of wall space though wildman.


----------



## Jonm (28 Aug 2020)

Seems to me that Sebastian’ post is about his power tools. He originally bought cheap ones and has upgraded to better quality tools both corded and cordless. He is now considering further purchases of bandsaws planers etc. He has researched this online and produced a list and budget for these tools. Some of them he has little knowledge about.He is asking for advice on these tools.

Just because he is new to this forum does not mean that he does not know what he is doing. He is going to an electrician about upgrading his supply, very sensible. Just because he has not mentioned hand tools does not mean he does not have them or know how to use them. 

There has been a lot of unnecessary acrimony. If everyone stuck to the question clearly asked in the original post then this would have been avoided. I know everyone is trying to help but I can see why Sebastian is upset.


----------



## Wildman (28 Aug 2020)

Droogs said:


> They do take up a hell of a lot of wall space though wildman.


True but if the circular saw is removable the whole thing can live on an outside wall with a porch cover to protect it from the weather or inside where machines can stand against it, after all you only need access to one end and the actual saw. close to the door makes loading easy, it will suit me and use the space twice.


----------



## siggy_7 (28 Aug 2020)

Sebastian, with regards to a router table I would like to suggest you look at the Incra LS fence system. In my opinion, it is by far and away the best system available for a router table because it completely takes the guesswork out of set-up and adjustment. No indeterminate nudges and endless trial cuts, you zero it in and then can set the fence position to exactly what you need. The micro-adjust feature is very useful for achieving very fine tolerances. I have the LS myself and to an engineer/machinist's way of thinking it is leagues ahead of basic home-made stuff.

For a router, I would recommend the large Triton router for a table (mine is the TRA001, the model numbers have changed since I think but the TR bit is the important bit - it's the largest of Triton's routers, about 2kW). It has a very good height adjustment system, making a separate lift unnecessary, plus above-table locking which makes bit changes very easy.

For an insert plate and table, I can't offer first-hand experience. The Incra plates are good from what I have heard. My own table is made from 6mm steel, including the insert plate. I had it laser cut by a local machine shop with a 3mm deep machined recess for the hole-reducing inserts - the table is custom-sized to fit as an extension table to my table saw. I then make the hole-reducing inserts to the required size out of perspex and route slots into them to provide extra dust extraction in the same manner as the "clean sweep" Incra inserts. When combined with below-table dust extraction plus that from the fence, it really makes for a very clean routing process. I chose a steel table to ensure it is flat and also magnetic for use with Magswitch accessories - I don't have t-track in the table which for me is a bonus as it limits positioning of feather boards etc compared with a fully magnetic table, plus t-track just attracts dust.

Best of luck with your woodworking endeavours, I look forward to seeing some of your work and further contributions here.


----------



## MikeK (28 Aug 2020)

I second the Incra LS system for a router table. I built my router table using the Incra system, and while it is a bit pricey, I can't think of a better system that meets my small shop requirements, but most importantly, because that is what I wanted. I had a Triton TRA001 mounted to an Incra router plate made for it, but got tired of having to open the CleanSweep housing every time to unlock and lock it for adjustments or manually turn it off to raise the router to change cutters. I replaced it with a AUKTools V3 variable speed router (with remote speed controller) mounted to the Incra Mast-R-Lift-II lift. The AUKTools V3 is rated at 2.4HP instead of the Triton's 3.25HP, but I can live with it.

The Incra CleanSweep MagnaLOCK plates are fantastic for dust and chip control. Very little remains on the table or floor, even when cutting dados when the fence extraction port is not effective. Aside from a little build up in two internal corners of the CleanSweep housing, everything is sucked up by my extraction system.


----------



## silz (28 Aug 2020)

Sorry guys -- it's getting a bit tricky replying to every single helpful person but I have read every bit of what was written here and i'm quite happy with the advice i've been given, learnt a lot and feel more confident about the choices i'll make.

A 'sparky' as you call them has been by today and checked the wires confirming i'll be able to upgrade the existing breaker to 32A and add 2x 16 Amp plugs in the garage which should be more than enough for Lights + 1.1kw extractor + 2.2 or up to 3kw PT

Based on my needs I'll prioritze getting a decent PT with as much capacity as possible. I understand the need for a 'higher capacity' as possible but it seems if I'll start venturing beyond the 265mm I'll essentailly blow all of my budget on a PT and nothing else. The AT310 seems like a decent choice but If I have to choose between 50mm more planing capacity and a bandsaw, I'd rather get the bandsaw and make do with the AT260.

On the bandsaw there doesn't seem to be any point in getting much more cutting capacity than what I'll be able to process with the jointer. My finalist is currently BS400 Premium 16" Bandsaw -- It seems to have the same power and capacity as the more expensive AT variants whilst compared to them it comes with cast iron band wheels. I can't figure out why its so much cheaper than the axminster stuff. 

On the routing side I'll hold fire as I don't need to do any templating on any particular future project. I'll be fine just with the 18v Makita for doing edges and I don't expect to use the router table much in the next few months. 

But in order to make the next couple pieces of furniture for my indoors, I'll need to: 

- Resize the oak boards into workable pieces, either with the bandsaw or table saw which I already have. 
- Resaw the boards into needed widths. (need a new proper *bandsaw* for this)
- Plane/size them (need a *Planer/Thicknesser* for this)

Now i don't necessarily need to use anything like a biscuit jointer or the domino to put the top of the dining table together but I might as well get the domino and use that since I intend to use it on a lot of future projects as well.


----------



## AJB Temple (28 Aug 2020)

Cool. How are you off for cramps? Dining table top will require plenty of cramps and a decent big and sharp hand plane for flattening. I am still collecting cramps after all these years as I never seem to have enough for big glue ups. 

Not sure what you mean by "resawing the boards into needed widths". If you mean widths across the boards (not thickness) then a bandsaw is the wrong tool for the job. Table saw, track saw or handsaw - not bandsaw. Then plane and edge rub. Bandsaw os a bad choice as you cannot get really accurate straight cuts over a long length that are good enough for edge jointing. 

Thicknessing is a lot easier with a powered thicknesser, but can be done with a hand plane, maybe aided by a good, big belt sander.


----------



## silz (28 Aug 2020)

@AJB Temple

I do not have any parallel clamps and in total I have around ~16-20 clamps now so not a sizable collection. I've just ordererd 4x 1000mm parallel clamps off of ebay (link BESSEY UK100 UniKlamp 1000mm Adjustable Parallel Jaw F Clamp & Spreader,1,2,4's | eBay) and if they're any good I'll order more. I'm a bit suspicious though as they sell 4x for 110 gbp and the one axminster sells are 60 pounds a pop, could there be something wrong with them? 

I've been looking at used domino 500's on ebay but i'm more gradually more tempted to just get a cheaper biscuit jointer to help with panel alignment and call it a day. I don't think I'll get to the point of building any chairs this year and that's the main use I'd have out of the Domino.

I did order a makita 18v brushless planer from axminster but they messed up the premium delivery and ended up cancelling as they were being dicks about it saying they got the order at 16:04 although on all my invoices, emails & every piece of data it shows up as 15:55. Even on the order itself it says premium delivery for 28th of August but they still refused to acknowledge their mistake, anyhow, different story, decided meanwhile i'd have very little use for it if I end up getting the PT in the next couple of weeks and I'm better of cancelling it anyway.

The biggest plane I own is a Stanley no4 so I'm definitely interested in getting at least 1 larger hand plane (not sure which exact size to pick though -- or brand!) for table tops and such as I wouldn't dare suggest the use of an electric planer for those tasks. 

Would you be able to suggest some decent set of chisels that don't break the bank? I do currently own a set but to be fair they're quite rubbish and I'd throw them out in a heartbeat. 

All of this leads to my next problem which is getting some sharpening gear to keep everything properly sharp, I need to look into that!


----------



## silz (28 Aug 2020)

Another thing I wanted to ask -- the sparky said that the wire to my garage is '2a' or something like that 2 + some letter that I didn't hear right, but he didn't seem too confident overall and didn't want to give a quote on the spot instead he said he's going to email me later. 

I did mention I don't want to lay a new wire as It's too much work and we don't want to keep this house for long so I'm thinking he might be bullshitting me for a some work.

I contacted him via trustatrader where he had 20+ 5 star reviews. 

Is there such thing as a 2a or whatever cable that could be enough for 32 amps? I've googled around and couldn't find anything specific about that.


----------



## billw (28 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> Would you be able to suggest some decent set of chisels that don't break the bank? I do currently own a set but to be fair they're quite rubbish and I'd throw them out in a heartbeat.



Narex


----------



## silz (28 Aug 2020)

@billw

Thanks! These look quite nice o.o Narex Chisels - 8116 Cabinetmakers Chisel Boxed Set (black) and bang for buck


----------



## billw (28 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> @billw
> 
> Thanks! These look quite nice o.o Narex Chisels - 8116 Cabinetmakers Chisel Boxed Set (black) and bang for buck



8105 series is even cheaper and decent all-round workhorses.


----------



## AJB Temple (28 Aug 2020)

Second hand chisels off the Bay. I have fancy (LN) and cheap (Footprint I had as a kid - really good). Old marples, Ward, old Stanley etc usually have great metal. You only need about 4 for furniture making. Not personally a fan of Narex as the handles don't fit me.

Sharpening is crucial. There are oodles of threads here. Everything works. Diamond plates are cheap and fine if you are inexperienced or expert. Oil stone. Water stones. 3M paper on glass plates. Or more expensive electric linisher (very quick).

Hand plane. For flattening you want a plane with a long sole plate. Look at eBay. Record or Stanley No 7 say. Modern ones generally not a patch on old ones. If you want top notch new stuff, then Veritas, Lie Nielson, Clifton. Cheaper Chinese Qunagsheng or Axminster Rider (latter of patchy quality). For hand planes used for edge jointing or flattening, a long sole is good as you iron out high spots. Must be sharp. Sole must be true.

I did not check your Bessey link, but it is a good brand. Lots of us use old Record. Rigidity helps for wide sizes.

Biscuit jointer is very different to Domino. If you are inexperienced at edge jointing or jointing generally, forget biscuits and get domino. Just about foolproof, very strong and* crucially,* easy to align. I resisted domino / festool for ages. I was wrong.


----------



## Blackswanwood (28 Aug 2020)

sebastiangug said:


> On the bandsaw there doesn't seem to be any point in getting much more cutting capacity than what I'll be able to process with the jointer. My finalist is currently BS400 Premium 16" Bandsaw -- It seems to have the same power and capacity as the more expensive AT variants whilst compared to them it comes with cast iron band wheels. I can't figure out why its so much cheaper than the axminster stuff.



If you can get to see one of the Trade Axminster bandsaws alongside the Record BS400 I think you’ll pick up on the difference in build quality. I have been mulling over a bandsaw upgrade for the past couple of months and they all look pretty much the same. The difference tends to be in things like the blade guides - I think the Record has discs whereas the Axminster Trade are ball bearing?

I’m not knocking the BS400 - it’s got decent power and capacity but imho it’s a couple of notches below the Axminster Trade machines. Startrite are also made by Record and probably more comparable. (Scott and Sargeant have cloned the Startrite machines under the Itech brand.)


----------



## PAC1 (28 Aug 2020)

That sounds like a plan. I have the BS400 it is good strong bandsaw. It will take a large blade and fully tension it. You can also fit a very narrow blade 1/8th is the smallest I have. It has bearing guides not discs. My biggest complaint with it is the dust extraction is not good enough. There is 4” at the bottom but only a 1” port under the table. 
it is worth looking around at prices as they regularly have offers. Check out Yandles prices
You will need wheels for it but i did not get the Record wheels
Edit Sorry it has a mix of bearings and fixed guides.


----------



## TheTiddles (28 Aug 2020)

What a fun thread, how did I miss it for so long?

I think the pertinent question is the one that’s been asked a fair bit, as we need to match our tools to solve the problems we have. So you want to make a bench and a table, great start... what kind of bench and table? A modern sculptural masterpiece in flowing curves with burr veneers wrapping perfectly over every surface and millimetre perfect inlays highlighting every facet? Or old scaffolding boards nailed to a shopping trolley? (Upcycling as it’s known, apparently)

A large refectory type table in English oak can be done with a few hand tools, or some monster machines to give just about the same finished item, but if you’re going to be laminating several hundred strips to make intersecting compound curves, then you’re looking at some serious kit to take the work on for that and get it right.

Maybe the thing to do it design what you want to make a bit, look how others do it and what they use for it, it may not be the perfect answer but it may save you from the disillusionment of having spent a lot of money on things that still don’t give you the result you want.

There are some people who post their work who have deep pockets and no idea, it’s comical watching them fluff up
one thing after another because they never once did a proper plan. Others have a thing for having as few tools as possible yet make some incredible things all by themselves.

From my own experience I’d say after two years’ish I wouldn’t have had nearly enough knowledge to buy a lot of equipment and get good value from it. Now I find I have just about all the tools I need or want (in fact probably too many) but never enough time to use them. Could I go out and spend what you’re planning to? Sure, would I? No, not a chance. But don’t let me stop you, it keeps people employed.

Aidan


----------



## MusicMan (29 Aug 2020)

How about a reset, guys? Seb will find it hard to realise that this is a welcoming and helpful forum. Seb, why not ask your question again but give us some idea of the things that you (a) have made (b) want to make. You'll find plenty of help on how to get there. Plenty of it contradictory of course. One of the things to learn in woodwork is that there are often many ways of achieving the same ends.


----------



## silz (29 Aug 2020)

@AJB Temple

Thanks for the advice, the record No7 seems excellent for what I'd need, I'll try to grab a decent one off of ebay and sharpen it adequately!

Although I have never used a biscuit jointer or a Domino i'm aware they're quite different tools for different purposes, i was thinking i could postpone getting the domino for a few months since my immediate needs are strictly to help with alignment and nothing more. But it is a bit of a juggle between pay 150 for a biscuit now and 500 for a domino later or just skip to the domino right now, I'll do the math after getting the <essentials> and see if I can fit it in.

@TheTiddles 

I know there's plenty of different ways to build all the things one would want to build and that there's always a way to build it by using solely cheap handtools. I am aware that some people preffer it whilst others have had it forced upon them out of financial necessity. Neither type of tools are a substitute for skill and hard work. 

I am however free to choose my own path and my own methods of building. Not a fan of purism, it's almost always rooted in childlike arrogance.

I didn't post plans & measurements as it wasn't pertinent to my question. I didn't ask 'what tools to use to build X', I asked which brands/models should I pick for these specific machines. I don't know how many times I have to clear this bit up.

I do plan absolutely everything i build down to the millimiter as in my day-to-day jobs I worked in the complex infrastructure industry.

I'm also happy to keep people employed with my spending


----------



## Ttrees (29 Aug 2020)

Sebastian, did you have a look at any of those folks I mentioned?
Might give you some insight into hand tools and machinery, vs power tool and machinery.
You might find those folks who primarily use Festool kit and powertools
don't pick up a hand plane much.
From what you mentioned before, I am still wondering what you want any Festool domino or similar kit for.
That's a tool for speed in conjunction with large machine outfits mostly or folks who actually use it to make money.
Kind of the opposite to a dressy joint that you might learn from and see in refined work like Jory.

What sort of a workbench have you got?
If you haven't got something solid and no intention to buy something heavy...
Would/should/might this be perhaps the best idea to research what machine you need, thus making fewer tools to concentrate on.

A real workbench is the most important tool in the workshop if you intend to do handwork, and much different to an MFT torsion box that you might use to try an avoid doing hand tool woodworking.
The latter bench for a first bench is a recipe for failure or even disaster when the time comes to do something that a hand power tool cannot do, or do safety.

My bench does all the surfacing that a planer would do, and I treat it as such!
Some are the opposite.
I like planes and I'm not needing to take off a half inch off something often.

The sawing machines can do so much more work for _me, _ than a planer could do.
Your timber merchants might be a very relevant consideration when choosing what the best machines for you are.
Stick with your hand tools and do more research. 
You don't need to spend that kind of money for really good machinery.

Get one machine at a time and you gain an extra machine or two with your budget.
By the time a suitable machine comes up, you should have done a few months of research and know what you want by then if you study.

Tom


----------



## siggy_7 (29 Aug 2020)

Sebastian, the Bessey Uniklamps you have ordered are fine for general assembly but being the quick-action squeeze type are relatively weak inclamping force (from memory 1500N I think). For more challenging glue-ups, such as closing small gaps in a laminated table top glue up, you'll want something like the Bessey K-Body Revo which I think is about 5 times as strong. I would buy a couple of these, you won't regret having the extra clamping power on hand when you find you need it halfway through a glue up (I own both types and speak from experience).


----------



## Doug B (29 Aug 2020)

siggy_7 said:


> Sebastian, the Bessey Uniklamps you have ordered are fine for general assembly but being the quick-action squeeze type


Uniklamp have the same action as Revos & whilst I agree they are lighter duty than revos they aren’t quick action squeeze type


----------



## siggy_7 (29 Aug 2020)

Doug B said:


> Uniklamp have the same action as Revos & whilst I agree they are lighter duty than revos they aren’t quick action squeeze type



Ah my bad, I was confusing the Uniklamp (which I actually don't have experience of) with the DuoKlamp (of which I own several).


----------



## Woody Alan (29 Aug 2020)

" 2a or whatever cable that could be enough for 32 amps "
Probably said it's only a 2.5mm twin and earth. In which case (without seeing the site) He will be obliged to bring everything to standard, he would not be adhering to guidelines if not. I suspect he would be looking at an armoured feed to a new uprated fuseboard and if the serving board in the house is not up to satndard replacing that. But I'm just guessing in the dark.


----------



## billw (29 Aug 2020)

Planes - I definitely agree with @AJB Temple - do not buy new where possible unless it's the likes of LN, Veritas, etc.

Ebay is good but be prepared to fettle or restore them in some (minor) way, however they'll be rock solid and reliable. I have a number of old Stanley planes from Ebay (5, 45, 50, 78) and they didn't take much work at all to get into a decent state, just a clean up, sharpening, and suchlike.


----------



## AJB Temple (29 Aug 2020)

As an anecdote on your table top. Some years ago I bought a big house in the country with my wife and we were mortgaged to the hilt. Zero spare cash. Actually negative spare cash as No 1 offspring was in our near future. 

I decided to fit out our utility room, and I made a mahogany worksurface 40mm thick, and oak cupboards. Big boards of mahogany as it was a longish room. Dominos had not been invented. There were no online forums and I had not heard of a biscuit jointer. I did not have a jointer plane and was not aware they existed in anything except wooden. 

I used dowels to align the boards, put in using nails to mark the facing board (sharp point). A number 4and a half Stanley (present from my dad when I was a kid) to do the edge mating. Cascamite glue up (when that stuff was easy and good). Some record T clamps, but I had to work across in stages. Glue and clamp as I went. 

Elu belt sander was my main tool for prepping the boards (still got it and still use it). 
Oodles of coats of tung oil to finish. 

It all turned out really well. I was proud of it and still am - I no longer own that house but the utility and kitchen fit out I made are still there. So you can as a young man have great aspirations, minimal kit but maximum enthusiasm and achieve really good things. Keep at it.


----------



## TheTiddles (29 Aug 2020)

A plan is also a detailed proposal for doing or achieving something, I think you’ve been stuck in front of your drafting board too long Mike!


----------



## MikeG. (29 Aug 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> A plan is also a detailed proposal for doing or achieving something, I think you’ve been stuck in front of your drafting board too long Mike!



Much too bloody long!  Knackered back.....much pain......can't get to the workshop much.......


----------



## Hornbeam (29 Aug 2020)

I think that you have missed the point. The analogy of an Aston Martin or a Landrover is not that one will make you better. it is about horses for courses. Do you want to drive off road or do you want a Grand tourer, The same is true for tools. Festool make fantastic precision tools but very expensive. Makita are more of a very solid trade tool that will suffer years of hard use. I have a mix of tools from both ends of the spectrum.
As already said you will get quite a lot of good advice but often contradictory. I would rather hand saw a board to dimensions (and not have a table saw) than have to plane and thickness boards (ie have a PT)
So rather than saying which tool is better, you have to put it in context of the work you want to do with it. If I wanted a router to cut large mouldings and use in a table, then its a half inch robust one, If you want to do fine details with small cutter then it possibly a quarter inch with finer controls.
Ian


----------



## Doug71 (29 Aug 2020)

Ttrees said:


> Jory Brigham does some nice work, thanks for that!
> I have had only a glance yet at his stuff (not for long)
> 
> Just a guess by looking at Jory's stuff that he doesn't use much electron powered hand tools



Jory has connections with Festool, I find it quite amusing that he has videos like "Making a handcrafted chair with Jory Brigham", if you watch it you see he makes all the joints with a Festool Domino


----------



## Daniel2 (29 Aug 2020)

In fairness, I think the OP is probably not on the right forum.
But, I do find the thread distractedly entertaining.
Perhaps I too can be a Ahole, because I've posted.  
Good luck with the machinery collection.
ATB,
Daniel


----------



## jpor4180 (29 Aug 2020)

I can't fault Sebastian here. This started to go in the right direction with people interacting on what was asked then it went back to where it started, TheTiddles and Droog did you not read the earlier posts? All that information is clearly known by the OP and if it weren't then he's shown he's able to use a search engine. He's not arrogant, he's just fed up of you treating this like he knows nothing. Just answer the questions he's asked or go be boring elsewhere.

AJB Temple I don't think he was snapping at you. I'd imagine it's Tiddles and Droog based on what they've posted, it would have annoyed me too

Sebastian I'll try to answer some of your questions:

It could be as has been implied earlier that your cable is 2.5mm, if so it would need to be 4mm, yes. That said, if it is indeed new build you should get in touch with your builder if other electricians independently also confirm it's 2.5mm (don't ask them). If your housebuilder has told you that it should take a 32A car charging commando, then they should also pay for the 4mm cable to be laid. The cost of this might only be £500 so I personally think it's worth doing as it's a bit of a sticky point with the machines you want. They could have also said the wire was 2ga, but I don't know if it would be, as that would be quite meaty I think and would definitely be good enough

As AJB Temple and others have suggested, chisels can be got off ebay and not the end of the world if you get the sharpening a bit wrong. Stanley 5001 (black handle) are very good and not too expensive, the blue handle 5002 are slightly cheaper and very good still

I like my Makita PJ7000 biscuit jointer, I think it's always got a place - I think it's worth getting while you wait of the domino

The BS400 I think is well regarded, no it might not be as good as some of the Axminster Trade ones, I don't know but at about £1000 it's probably the best for the money - happy for people to disagree on this though


----------



## jpor4180 (29 Aug 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> Yep, read them all, hence the “what type of bench and table?” question


But was your response actually relevant to the question. Could you not have given insight on the machines he's researched and said what machines you have in your workshop and whether you could recommend them?


----------



## Doug B (29 Aug 2020)

I wish you luck in your Woodworking journey.


----------



## Daniel2 (29 Aug 2020)

In the spirit of trying to be helpful, I noticed the discussion of planer
thicknesser capacities, earlier on.
Completely by accident, with no intentions at all, mine is 400mm.
It wasn't bought by accident, it was bundled with a particular saw
and spindle moulder I had fallen in love with. At the time, I thought 
it was a quite unnecessarily large. How wrong can one be ? So often I 
find myself working boards of 320 ish. It's just so darn useful(l).
I also grossly underestimated just what a useful machine it would
become.
ATB,
Daniel


----------



## Dovetail (29 Aug 2020)

Thread was cleaned and it's returned so most of the content is available for members to refer to. If your post is not showing, it was cleaned. This was a Noel/Angie co-operative effort.


----------

