# English Workbench Build



## nabs (15 Jul 2017)

oh no! Another workbench build thread!

I am having a go at what has become known as an 'English' style bench - I'm not sure why this term became popular, possibly it is down to Chris Schwartz in his (rather good) Workbench book where he identifies three broad traditions in bench design: French (oblong table with a heavy top); English (thin planks on top, one or more aprons); Continental (French + gizmos).

He is a bit snooty about the English design and, despite the fact that he makes it clear the traditions he identifies are very broad generalizations and cover a complex mongrel history, my patriotism was awakened and I resolved to make one myself. That'll show him, I thought!

Actually he does provide a lot of examples from English literature showing this type of design - most famously the one shown in Nicholson's _Mechanical Exercises_ (1812) - and many of us in the UK will have used something similar at school.







The advantage of the design is it is relatively straightforward and you can make it with inexpensive and easily available timber (and you don't need a lot of it). Finally if, like me, you are prepared to stump up £26 you get to follow along with the brilliant Richard Maquire as he tells you how to make it in his top video series:
http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/new ... workbench/

Having got access to a small pick-up for the near future I was able to get over to the St Albans wood recycling centre last week where they had three boards of 8 1/2'' x 1 3/4'' pine. They were just under 12' ft long - perfect as I only have room for a bench just under 6' (you need 6 lengths - 3 for the top, 2 for the apron and 1 for the top rails). The rest of the bench can be built with 2x4, but I am using a scaffold board I already had.

The pine boards are stamped TR26, which according to the t'internet is some kind of strength grade (>c24). I got a couple of very rough looking 4x4 fence posts also. The total cost was £58 which I thought was good value, at least compared to B&Q prices (is it!?)

I do already have a bench made from plywood in the days when I was still labouring under the false belief that the only way to make things from wood was with machines. It has some limitations that I hope to remedy in the new hand-tool-only bench, the most significant of which is it's location, which is in the darkest corner of the workshop. 

It is attached to the wall on two sides, which is both a blessing (very rigid) and a curse (tricky to work with big or awkwardly sized items). it has a small planing stop which I find very useful and will reproduce on the new bench. Perversely, I have also found the absence of an apron very convenient - I had not realized how much I relied on clamps attached to the front lip until I started making the new bench - so using one with an apron should be interesting...

I have nearly finished the legs - only a couple of cock-ups so far, so good progress as far as I'm concerned! will post more pics later.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2017)

The pine boards are stamped TR26 ... so they were stolen from St. Ives?


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## memzey (16 Jul 2017)

Nice start nabs! I love a good bench build thread. I made my bench around the turn of the year and love it. It has made such a difference to my woodworking I wish I'd done it ages ago. Great to have another local member as well. I know the recycling place you speak of in St. Albans as I live about 10 minutes away from it across town. There's another one in Hemel too.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2017)

Very misleading calling that THE english workbench, it's just one of many variations. 

Schwarze, and Landis, both omit any reference at all to the very best and most common UK bench design; like this but with many variations:






It also happens to be very easy to construct.

Paul Sellers does an excellent version.

https://paulsellers.com/2012/06/making-your-workbench/

I wouldn't bother with the Maguire version - it's a bit OTT and nowhere near as basic or as useful as the above.


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

In Schwarz's defence, he does say there are many variations, but the key shared features are the apron(s) and use of relatively thin timber for the top.

I did watch the Paul Sellers video series on his bench build and he does a very good job of explaining it, and it does indeed look straightforward, but one of the attractions of Maquire's version is that it does not need a laminated top - it is just 3 planks nailed to a series of bearers. I have no idea if this is a better or worse design, but it seems easier to make (particularly as I only have two long clamps!).

In terms of how basic the design is, If I can build it with my very limited abilities then you can rest assured that Maquire's bench is basic enough - we shall see how I get on shortly!


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2017)

As with all bench build threads you'll get a 101 opinions from 100 people. I for one wouldn't want a bench with either a well or aprons. 
That does not make them wrong, of course.


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## sundaytrucker (16 Jul 2017)

I am also building an 'English' style work bench as per Richard's video series. It is taking forever due to laziness and a lack of time. I chose this style of bench for similar reasons to yourself. 

I have had a long break from the bench build, a few mistakes knocked my confidence and my current work space makes a depressing place to spend time. However I aim to get back to it soon as I am fed up looking at the pile of timber in the 'garage'. 

Good luck.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2017)

phil.p":fnvve86f said:


> As with all bench build threads you'll get a 101 opinions from 100 people. I for one wouldn't want a bench with either a well or aprons.
> That does not make them wrong, of course.


Depends what you are used to and what you are making but if it's the usual rectangular frame and or box shape of most joinery and furniture, then the well becomes really useful - the workpiece sits across the well, and tools, screws, shavings, pies etc drop out of the way. 
Also having a front 'beam' and a back rail as per the pic above, makes it very easy to level one against the other, whereas a complete single boarded top may be difficult to level. The front beam also gives mass where it is most needed - this is where most of the work gets done, it's the most important bit of the bench. Some Japanese woodwork is done on just a planing beam alone, either on the floor or propped up one way or another.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2017)

nabs":3ptu1qkw said:


> ....but one of the attractions of Maquire's version is that it does not need a laminated top - it is just 3 planks nailed to a series of bearers. ....


Seller's version doesn't need a laminated top either but it's an easier way to get a result, especially if you haven't got a bench to work on.


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

good luck Sundaytrucker - hopefully my hapless efforts will encourage you to get on with yours!

I prepared the wood needed for the legs - the fence posts were very ropey, and this contributed to my first major cock up. I am gradually getting more confident using a plane to get a board square and straight and this part went okay. Maquire is good at explaining which surfaces need to be accurately done, and why some can be left in their rough sawn state and this saved a bit of time.

All the joinery is half lap dovetail joints, which are quick to do particularly if you use a chisel to wack out most of the waste - this is much more fun than sawing, but as I found out you have to be careful looking for knots and defects in the wood that might cause it to split outside your lines . 

My inexperience showed itself early on where - despite having noticed one of the fence posts contained a large fissure - it did not occur to me that this would be immediately split the moment I hit it with a chisel. With hindsight this could have been easily avoided by orienting the post to avoid the crack - you live and learn! Sadly I did not have enough fence post left to make a new one, so I glued the broken bit back on (luckily the majority of the broken part will be removed again when I cut the recess for the apron).

The legs are kept square by two rails - I used a bit of the 1 3/4'' timber purchased for the top to make the top rails and an old scaffold board to make the bottom rails.

I got to use my saw bench to rip the scaffold board into two 4'' strips and the split in the top was very handy.


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## Eric The Viking (16 Jul 2017)

Jacob has a lifetime of experience I can't come close to matching. But on one point I'm definitely with Schwarz: the drawer is a nuisance. You drop the shafts of holdfasts through the top, and it's in the way. It's also in the way for any tasks that make use of the front apron. 

I hesitate to disagree with Phil P. too, but mine has a sort-of apron, which I find very useful, especially for planing operations and anythign that involves working on the edges of frames and on long stock.. 

Mine is my own design and I didn't get it right. It's been good enough for 32 years, but it's definitely on the "Go back and do it again list."





Seriously, if you can get your hands on either of Schwarz's two books on workbenches they are excellent. I've got the blue one, and it's been very helpful (for the eventual v.2).

E.

PS: Nick- it looks like it's coming along fine. You'll probably be surprised how strong those fence posts are. I used one thinner one to make a garden frame a few years back (it keeps a tomato growbag off the ground). All four corner posts (that I cut out of it) are really manky, but they've stood up just fine in all weathers.


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

I have the 2nd edition (blue) Schwarz book too and I agree it is good. His writing style (American Journalistic? Is that a thing?) is not really my cup of tea, but I admire him for his painstaking approach to research. 

As an aside, I also think we owe him a debt of gratitude for work he did getting the Woodworker articles republished in book form, and for his part in getting Roubo translated and published in English.

Re legs - Schwartz recommends laminating two clear boards (as does Sellers) to avoid the issues created by the crappy quality that is commonly available as 4x4 - quite good advice I think.

Regarding tool wells, my bench will be up against a long alcove where I can put a small shelf with a lip at bench height - this means I can get some of the benefits of easy access to tools while still having a narrow bench and not so much bother from shavings burying my tools (I actually nicked this idea from Derek Cohen who has the same arrangement in his workshop)

Other than distant memories from school, I don't have any experience using a bench with an apron so I am interested to see what it is like

toodles


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## Droogs (16 Jul 2017)

you can get sxhwarz's 2nd bench book for free as part of the kindle unlimited subscription. It is quite a good read and has a good few designs in it with a write of user experience with each bench type.


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

All bar one of the joints can be best described as mediocre - reasonably tight fits but no where near the level of precision as Mr Maquire. Still they are the best I could do. All the small inaccuracies are not really going to effect the end result I think - as Maguire is keen to remind us, it is only a workbench after all.

The only problematic error was a bit of careless sawing on the mortice for the diagonal brace going between the leg and the apron (this is an optional feature to reduce the amount the bench wracks when planing). Annoyingly this bit is intended to make the bench more rigid so presumably it is not a good idea to have a loose fit here - I created a small shim to fill the gap and hopefully this will keep it rigid.







gap and shim:


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2017)

nabs":pqkpvfcw said:


> ........crappy quality that is commonly available as 4x4 - quite good advice I think.....


Top quality 4x4" redwood is available from good timber yards. It's kept for newel posts mainly - in very long striaght lengths with no shakes.pith or heartwood - it's split first and then sawn to remove the heart


> ....
> Other than distant memories from school, I don't have any experience using a bench with an apron so I am interested to see what it is like
> 
> toodles








This bench is single sided and could be put up against the wall. The typical school bench is much the same but is double sided with a beam on both sides.
The point of an apron is to add mass and rigidity - you don't need braces - the legs are housed into the back of the apron. It's also very good for cramping against with the vice and you can add G cramps or drill holes for pegs, for holding big pieces.

The odd thing about bench threads nowadays is that it's fashion dominated, wood screw vices, end vices, etc - everybody has picked up the same bits of misinformation from just a few same sources - Schwarz, Landis, MacGuire, magazines, all have their own ideas and have talked the traditional bench quite out of the picture, so it's good to see Sellers putting it back in!


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

A bit harsh on Richard Maguire, I think - despite (at the time) running a business making baroque workbenches (which is presumably what his customers wanted), according to Schwarz - who attended a show with him - he spent much of his time trying to dissuade potential customers from buying them, recommending they built their own simple 'English' bench instead! Probably a bit harsh on Mr Schwarz too, since he seems to prefer a 'Roubo' bench, which effectively is a table with a heavy top and a 'crotchet' on the side.

PS Maguire does say that the brace is overkill - I only added it as I thought it would be good practice.

toodles


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2017)

It's a bit harsh on the poor old trad bench to write it out of history and have it replaced by various fashion trends.
And it's not helpful to anyone who just wants a practical woodwork bench!


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## El Barto (16 Jul 2017)

I too love a bench build and I haven't yet followed along with this style so I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

I built mine earlier this year (the kind Jacob has been championing and instructed by Paul Sellers) and like others have said, it's made such a difference. Just the fact that you have this amazing tool that you built and that looks great is really motivating, and then of course there's all the practicality that comes with it. I think probably for most of us on here, a bench is a bench and no matter which style you choose; it's going to work and you're going to love it.


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

Jacob":14ge05cz said:


> It's a bit harsh on the poor old trad bench to write it out of history and have it replaced by various fashion trends.
> And it's not helpful to anyone who just wants a practical woodwork bench!



for others considering buying the Schwartzmeister's book, don't be deterred by Jacob's comments - in fact he does devote a couple of chapters to discussing the dear old trad English bench. He even builds a couple of them! Admittedly his historical revisionist tendencies get the better of him and he can't stop himself adding a leg vice and a waggon vice. No doubt the kind of mindless frippery that makes Jacob's blood boil!

Mine is just going to have a splendid Record quick release. Made in Sheffield!

Here are the legs dry fitted - including the unnecessary leg brace. Unfortunately it turns out I don't have any nails, so they will be staying like this until I go shopping.

toodles


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## El Barto (16 Jul 2017)

Jacob":4i76chgo said:


> It's a bit harsh on the poor old trad bench to write it out of history and have it replaced by various fashion trends.
> And it's not helpful to anyone who just wants a practical woodwork bench!



I don't think it's going anywhere


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## richarnold (16 Jul 2017)

I have recently made a new bench for myself, and to be honest I wish I had done it years ago. I made it along the lines of a couple of 19th century benches I found in an abandoned workshop.
I have always been used to a tool well, but this time I decided to stick to the traditional flat topped plank design and I have not missed the well at all, and prefer it without. my old bench had a hardwood top. tail vice, and bench dogs. Again I have not missed these at all. One thing I could not forsake is my record quick release vice, but I have an aversion to large lumps of cast iron that always seem to find the freshly sharpened edge of a saw or chisel! , so I have clad it in a 2ft horizontal oak jaw. I consider the work surface to be sacrificial and have no qualms about nailing or screwing into it, or driving a bench knife into it.
After about 8 months it has stayed pretty flat, and only takes a few swipes with a try plane now and then to correct anything. This is a hard working bench in a very busy joiners work shop, and possibly would not be to everyone's taste, but they are simple to build, and reasonably inexpensive.
Good luck with your build
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO ... 1zz_jeNBFc
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM ... IXixCyPXWr
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN ... zwaGlPBl0Z
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM ... fqZQxpO7uB


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2017)

If you use a Record vice and you worry about hitting it you only need to set the thing down 1/2" - 1" and cap the top edges with wood. It's a good way of getting the top of the vice dead level with the worktop as well - just plane it flat.


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

thanks Richard - that is encouraging to hear. Unfortunately photobucket changed the rules and your pics no longer show up, but I do remember seeing your ingenious adaption to the QR vice in a previous post.

El Barto - just read your thread - great job on the bench! also it was good to see Custard's tip of including a slot in the middle of the bench top to hold F clamps. I had seen a similar idea with a friction fitted bit of wood that could be raised to make a lengthways planing stop, but had forgotten all about it until now.

Memzey unfortunately the pics on your build thread have been photobuggered also


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2017)

I have a 2" slot down the middle of mine which is useful for clamping things down. I've a reversible infill which is flat with the top one way up and 1/2" proud the other way up which is useful as a stop to plane against. I did it partly because I had to rebuild the base of the bench narrower, and partly to get rid of the well.


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## nabs (16 Jul 2017)

thanks Phil - does the slot run the full length of the bench? Do you have a pic?


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2017)

I'll get a couple in the morning.


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## richarnold (16 Jul 2017)

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO ... 1zz_jeNBFc


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## memzey (17 Jul 2017)

Richard's efforts at linking to images are drawing a blank but as someone who has seen his bench in the flesh (wood?) and tried it out, I can attest to everything he has said. Including I might add, his complete lack of aversion to screwing or nailing stops into the top! It looks great and works even better. Richard also cleverly added turn buttons on each corner which act as planing stops - a brilliant idea I hadn't thought of that might come in useful for you Nick (hopefully Richard sorts the pictures out as I'll have a terrible time explaining them).


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## richarnold (17 Jul 2017)

memzey":3u084ij9 said:


> Richard's efforts at linking to images are drawing a blank but as someone who has seen his bench in the flesh (wood?) and tried it out, I can attest to everything he has said. Including I might add, his complete lack of aversion to screwing or nailing stops into the top! It looks great and works even better. Richard also cleverly added turn buttons on each corner which act as planing stops - a brilliant idea I hadn't thought of that might come in useful for you Nick (hopefully Richard sorts the pictures out as I'll have a terrible time explaining them).


Thanks for your kind comments.
Having a real struggle to find a new way of adding images. The google link works for me, but not for anyone else apparently!
Photobucket now want hundreds of dollars a year for me to be able to have 3rd party sharing, so that's not going to happen!!!!.
Anyone got any other ideas for someone who isn't very computer savvy?


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## richarnold (17 Jul 2017)

memzey":3n0sx6do said:


> Richard's efforts at linking to images are drawing a blank but as someone who has seen his bench in the flesh (wood?) and tried it out, I can attest to everything he has said. Including I might add, his complete lack of aversion to screwing or nailing stops into the top! It looks great and works even better. Richard also cleverly added turn buttons on each corner which act as planing stops - a brilliant idea I hadn't thought of that might come in useful for you Nick (hopefully Richard sorts the pictures out as I'll have a terrible time explaining them).


Thanks for your kind comments.
Having a real struggle to find a new way of adding images. The google link works for me, but not for anyone else apparently!
Photobucket now want hundreds of dollars a year for me to be able to have 3rd party sharing, so that's not going to happen!!!!.
Anyone got any other ideas for someone who isn't very computer savvy?


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## Jacob (17 Jul 2017)

nabs":351eod7i said:


> Jacob":351eod7i said:
> 
> 
> > It's a bit harsh on the poor old trad bench to write it out of history and have it replaced by various fashion trends.
> ...


Not in my book. There is a picture bottom of page 21 of the "English" bench - an untypical version with unnecessarily splayed back legs, which he expands upon on page 66 - very oddly referring to this as the "Ian Kirkby" bench. There is an Ian Kirkby bench in the Landis book but it's very individualistic, not practical and nothing like the familiar UK bench
He says on page 67 that the old English bench (whatever that is, he obviously doesn't know) "disappeared during the 20C and was replaced by the continental bench as the bench of choice". This is not true. Bench of choice in amateur woodwork mags perhaps.
His 'modern english' bench (Chapter 5) is pure fantasy woodwork and has no resemblance to the actual most common and well used UK pattern of bench, of which he seems to be completely unaware.
As I say - these hack writers are re-writing our own history and not always doing anybody any favours!

PS the UK bench is a refinement of the Japanese planing beam - the essential feature being the single front timber like a planing beam, but framed up, plus an apron for added utility. Very practical, as compared to many of the other designs which are more like modified tables.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Jul 2017)

Nabs, here goes -










One with it flat, one with it turned over. I graduated its height so one end (the end nearest the camera) is lower, so if working say the sides of a jewelry box the plane will clear it but for anything bigger the stop is higher. It flips end to end, obviously as well as upside down and lifts out if the gap is needed.

If you worry about clipping the top of the vice with a saw, clad it -





This how I support large stuff - with a short shelf bracket.





I don't pretend that the ideas are mine, or that they are best - but they suit me.
Excuse clutter, btw -I can't get there to do much til I get a leg.


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## memzey (17 Jul 2017)

richarnold":rv0sgr20 said:


> memzey":rv0sgr20 said:
> 
> 
> > Richard's efforts at linking to images are drawing a blank but as someone who has seen his bench in the flesh (wood?) and tried it out, I can attest to everything he has said. Including I might add, his complete lack of aversion to screwing or nailing stops into the top! It looks great and works even better. Richard also cleverly added turn buttons on each corner which act as planing stops - a brilliant idea I hadn't thought of that might come in useful for you Nick (hopefully Richard sorts the pictures out as I'll have a terrible time explaining them).
> ...


Can't help with the pictures I'm afraid Richard as I'm in the same boat myself. Just to say I'm looking forward to your article in the next F & C. I was reading this month's on the train when I saw it previewed. I pointed at your name and blurted out "I know him"! Funny looks from fellow commuters followed


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## El Barto (17 Jul 2017)

richarnold":2r2yo8l3 said:


> memzey":2r2yo8l3 said:
> 
> 
> > Richard's efforts at linking to images are drawing a blank but as someone who has seen his bench in the flesh (wood?) and tried it out, I can attest to everything he has said. Including I might add, his complete lack of aversion to screwing or nailing stops into the top! It looks great and works even better. Richard also cleverly added turn buttons on each corner which act as planing stops - a brilliant idea I hadn't thought of that might come in useful for you Nick (hopefully Richard sorts the pictures out as I'll have a terrible time explaining them).
> ...



Try imgur.com. You just drag and drop images and it uploads them automatically. Once the images are uploaded if you hover your cursor over it a little drop down menu will appear that gives you sharing links, such as the type this forum uses. I've attached a couple of screenshots of what I mean. It's very quick and simple to use.


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## paulrockliffe (17 Jul 2017)

Phil, I like the spur shelving idea, cheap, easy, effective. It ties in well with my thinking on bench design; there are lots of things you can do with a bench now that didn't exist hundreds of years ago, so just copying those old designs might be perfectly good, but it won't necessarily be the best.

I built a bench recently and did quite a few things that contradict historic design but work really well for me:

* Top too deep at over a metre, but I can move all around the bench and have space to setup my belt sander, morticer, sharpening station, thicknesser etc on the back edge for an efficient work flow.

* No tool well as it interferes with power tools being used on the bench, but some shelves behind where all the clutter can gather away from the work.

* Bottom and sides paneled out with MDF boards to add weight and stiffness; done right the joints then do very little and you can use very light timber and cut cost dramatically. 

* Space for 20 drawers within the structure, so the bench space isn't wasted, all tools, fixings, sand paper etc will be to hand, it'll be easy to keep tidy and it'll free up loads of storage space elsewhere. Just need to find the time to build them all now!

* When I make the top, which is likely to be along the lines of 2" of MDF with a 10mm hardwood veneer I'm going to experiment with using an M16 tap to cut threads into the MDF so I can bolt things down as bolts and threaded bar are miles cheaper than holdfasts. This is the bit I'm less confident about, but I like to experiment sometimes.

There's lots to learn from older designs of course, but it's important to put them into a modern context, how use has changed, how space costs more now, what stuff exists now etc when you're designing a bench for now, for you and for your work.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Jul 2017)

Its surprising how useful the deadman has been - I had the support in leg on my last bench, but this one is the first with the deadman. I can clamp large pieces to the mid rail as the top timbers, shelf supports and the vice jaws are flush with the front.
You wouldn't need to thread the wood, just inset inset nuts on the underside. This would probably give you a better scope of bar size wise.
You last comment of course is perfectly correct - it's what suits you that matters, not how someone else thinks it should be built, no matter how good or clever.


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## nabs (17 Jul 2017)

thanks Phil - I like the slot idea, until now I have my bench has been up against a wall so I can simply place a board against the wall to get roughly the same effect, but I will not be able to do this in the future. Good to see how you have mounted your vice also - I was thinking of asking about whether people prefer having their's flush to the apron vs sticking out a bit, but did not do so yet for fear of starting world war III.

Jacob - glad to see you are spending some quality time with old Schwartzy again! I agree on the splayed legs, but note that In the latest edition he includes a drawing of the very same splayed leg bench affair and attributes it to none other than Charles Hayward - crazy stuff! The only way we can counter the historical revisionists is to live a bit more history of the correct type - I will try and do my bit with the trad English bench I'm building!


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Jul 2017)

To my way of thinking it's easy to pack a workpiece off the front - it just takes a piece of scrap - but you can't get anything flush if your vice is mounted proud.


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## Jacob (17 Jul 2017)

phil.p":tr58ef1w said:


> ....
> You wouldn't need to thread the wood, just inset inset nuts on the underside. .....


You don't even need to do that. Just find a piece from the scrap pile* which you can prop under the end of the workpiece. If necessary clamp it to the apron or leg.
These things get over thought and make life more difficult!

*PS if too long - saw a bit off. Hope that helps.


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## Jacob (17 Jul 2017)

phil.p":uhob4joe said:


> To my way of thinking it's easy to pack a workpiece off the front - it just takes a piece of scrap - but you can't get anything flush if your vice is mounted proud.


My vice is flush. If necessary (e.g. long bendy piece) I can drop in a bit of packing to clamp something away from the apron.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Jul 2017)

Jacob":11mdqp7y said:


> phil.p":11mdqp7y said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



He's talking of bolting something down as a cheaper alternative to buying holdfasts. Where does the piece of scrap come into it?


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## richarnold (17 Jul 2017)

El Barto":1murjf9h said:


> richarnold":1murjf9h said:
> 
> 
> > memzey":1murjf9h said:
> ...


hope this works!
http://imgur.com/F2Yi6r9
http://imgur.com/IsI5Tc9
http://imgur.com/oNh2Aqr
http://imgur.com/ZwDSZbU


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## Jacob (17 Jul 2017)

phil.p":2dl7h4q8 said:


> Jacob":2dl7h4q8 said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":2dl7h4q8 said:
> ...


oo ar I thought it was about a deadman! People do like over-fancy solutions!


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## Steve Maskery (17 Jul 2017)

Nice plane, Rich!

I grew up with a bench that has an apron. It's still at mum's bungalow, not a hard edge left on it, it's so worn. But I have a Roubo-style bench and really like it. It's the Fortune bench from Landis' book. I find the apron idea just gets in the way. I like to be able to clamp stuff down along the front edge.

I've lost over an inch in height in the last few years and now my bench feels a tad high for comfort, and as it has sled feet it is not easy just to chop off an inch or two.. It also has some woodworm, and although I've treated it, I not happy having it. So I think a new bench build is on the Tuit list.

I think the bottom line is, build what suits your style. If you are used to working with an apron, and have the gadgets to make use of it, then that is the right solution for you. But when I remake mine I shall change very little. There certainly won't be an apron.

And as for "English" bench? I've never seen one with splayed legs in the flesh. And I tend to be of the mind that if something dies out, there is usually a good reason for it.


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## nabs (17 Jul 2017)

right, I'm afraid I need to return our enjoyable discussion on bench design to the far less entertaining real world and report a minor catastrophe on my bench build. Remembering I had some cut brads left over from when I did the floorboards in the spare room I nipped out earlier this evening to do the glue up on the legs. 

No doubt exacerbated by the daft choice of nails, existing cracks in the top of two of the legs widened significantly - the one at the back in the pic (on the left) is the least bad: the crack pushed the inside corner towards the rail so that the shoulder of the half lap no longer connects with the face of the leg, and that the leg is pushed out of square. Sadly I did not notice until I had driven the first nail completely home, at which point I decided I had little choice but to continue.

The one at the front looked okay until I banged in the last nail when the crack suddenly opened up. At first sight this one looked correctable in as far as the outside edge was pushed away from the rail and could be chiseled/planed back to where it should be, but the split is very wide and presumably the joint is no longer any good as the nails have nothing solid to hold on to in the rail part. Also, this bit of leg has to receive nails from the apron and bearer which I fear might cause it to shatter all together.

I have a horrible feeling these are 'start again' errors, but any advice gratefully received.

I am so despondent that I can't even muster the energy to reply to Jacob's latest grumbles


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## Bm101 (17 Jul 2017)

Richard, use BBCode box. When you add your link. click on it then right click on here to add the link. will display your pics. You can reduce/edit the pic size in imgur before you share. This helps on here because imjur displays regular size pictures. Umlike Nabs ones lol  

Regards
Chris


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## Bm101 (17 Jul 2017)

Nabs. You're doing great mate. Don't get knocked back. Onwards and upwards fella! Have to add, in my tiny opinion at least, if youre using wood classed as fencing it will have been treated like fencing during drying etc. I could well be wrong but i'm not sure I would put in the effort on that. By the time you have paid a bit more multiplied buy your labour multiplied by your time.... evalauations on a piece of paper....


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## nabs (17 Jul 2017)

ha ha! out of curiosity BM, do my pics look huge _before_ you click them? In my browser they shrink to fit the window and the open up big when clicked.


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## Bm101 (17 Jul 2017)

no. pics are normal size mate. lol. im very guilty of it myself. 
But it makes some ppls view spaz out. :-" :-"


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## Brian18741 (17 Jul 2017)

Can you not just drive a few screws in perpendicular to the cracks to tighten them up? 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


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## richarnold (17 Jul 2017)

Bm101":33h9sbl5 said:


> Richard, use BBCode box. When you add your link. click on it then right click on here to add the link. will display your pics. You can reduce/edit the pic size in imgur before you share. This helps on here because imjur displays regular size pictures. Umlike Nabs ones lol
> 
> Regards
> Chris


Is this any better.


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## Jacob (18 Jul 2017)

nabs":36r71xpt said:


> right, I'm afraid I need to return our enjoyable discussion on bench design to the far less entertaining real world and report a minor catastrophe on my bench build. Remembering I had some cut brads left over from when I did the floorboards in the spare room I nipped out earlier this evening to do the glue up on the legs.
> 
> No doubt exacerbated by the daft choice of nails, existing cracks in the top of two of the legs widened significantly - the one at the back in the pic (on the left) is the least bad: the crack pushed the inside corner towards the rail so that the shoulder of the half lap no longer connects with the face of the leg, and that the leg is pushed out of square. Sadly I did not notice until I had driven the first nail completely home, at which point I decided I had little choice but to continue.
> 
> ...


Start again. 
You are on a learning curve. What you have learned is that cr&p wood is cr&p and you can't make a silk purse with a sow's ear, which is a valuable lesson! :lol: 
Further to that - if you value your time at all, and adding the value of the finished product (zero so far and going nowhere), you would save a fortune by buying some good timber. 
Very good quality 4x4" redwood is available from any good timber yard - it's specially selected and kept for newel posts.


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## nabs (18 Jul 2017)

thanks Jacob - good advice, put with oodles of tact and sensitivity as usual! I do agree, mind you, and will start again. 

It was indeed a false economy to try and use those terrible old fence posts. Although they are not completely to blame, I can see now that just getting the hang of the basic techniques is enough of a challenge without having to work around the additional problems caused by poor materials. 

I think I have learned a bit about how wood behaves in the process. For instance I now see, with the benefit of hindsight, that both the spits happened where I had borrowed the original cut ends - although I did this to avoid cutting into the bits of the posts that had been in concrete, it meant I was using the part with the most cracks and checks in it.

Re. time vs money, obviously I'd prefer to waste neither, but once I got over the initial disappointment I realized this cock-up was not an complete waste of time since I learned a bit in the process and hopefully will go quicker on the 2nd attempt as a result. 

I will report back once I get some better quality wood for the legs and rails - I may be some time since in a further galling turn of events my car has broken down.

toodles


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## nabs (18 Jul 2017)

PS Richard - yes your pics show up now


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jul 2017)

Richard's bench is incredibly beautiful ... but unless you're building a bench to support giant redwood logs while you hollow out canoes it's far heavier and larger than the vast majority of us would ever need.


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## paulrockliffe (18 Jul 2017)

Jacob":1ksjcgt5 said:


> oo ar I thought it was about a deadman! People do like over-fancy solutions!



Well yes, it's mostly fun and entertainment and a bit of being able to do stuff around the house without getting a man in for me. 

I hadn't thought about tapping the legs for a deadman though, thanks for that!

It's the work of a few seconds to move a bolted down component with the impact driver, it would take me quite a bit longer to find a suitable off-cut as I run a tidy ship, not that that's a consideration really.

When I designed my bench I tool Sellers advice about the apron and didn't bother with one; you can use a spacer, a deadman or a sash cramp in the tail vice to support a long piece and not having the apron makes it easier to clamp to the bench top on the over-hang as well as easier to clamp bowed timber. 

That said, as a lover of overly complicated solutions, a bolt-on apron would give the best of both worlds. Or the otherway around, if oyu have an apron, you just need to add a spacer inside the vice to move the work piece away from the apron if you wanted to do that.

I think that split post is recoverable with some glue and the right joint with the next stretcher; you want to bolt the two perpendicular stretchers to each other such that they hold the post in compression. If you fix the top to the stretchers such that the top is providing the stiffness the joint there can be made to have no load on it fairly easily.


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## Jacob (18 Jul 2017)

phil.p":3qk2e1cq said:


> Richard's bench is incredibly beautiful ... but unless you're building a bench to support giant redwood logs while you hollow out canoes it's far heavier and larger than the vast majority of us would ever need.


Actually you wouldn't need a bench at all.











In any case a beautiful bench could be a distraction - some people polish them up and worry about scratches! :lol: :lol:


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jul 2017)

Thanks for the pics. ... but I was actually aware of that.


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## Jacob (18 Jul 2017)

paulrockliffe":q9dby0rd said:


> ..........That said, as a lover of overly complicated solutions, a bolt-on apron would give the best of both worlds. ........


The main point of the apron is that it braces the whole structure, stiffens and adds mass to the front beam. You could think of the beam plus apron as a unit and the essential part of the bench. It's usually fairly hefty - ex 1 1/2" and housed to the legs. Then it doubles as a vertical work surface - dog holes, G clamps, deadman clamped on, etc etc
The trad bench is very cleverly and purposefully designed (by tradition). The others are just over-weight tables :roll:


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## paulrockliffe (18 Jul 2017)

That's true, but if you preferred to work without an apron all of the structural strength provided by the apron can easily be designed in in other ways. 

If you've not got an apron you would only need two 90 degree brackets between leg and stretcher to give the same bracing. I think the extra mass is irrelevant as if you were designing for mass you would want the mass as low as possible so you wouldn't add it at the apron unless you wanted an apron. And if it was really important you'd bolt the bench to the concrete floor anyway and incorporate all that mass.

There are so many ways to skin a cat that it's always design following use and preference rather than the other way around.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jul 2017)

It is entirely up to the user's needs - there is no best. For what I do MY bench is infinitely better without an apron.


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## Jacob (18 Jul 2017)

phil.p":3e7bdlht said:


> It is entirely up to the user's needs - there is no best. For what I do MY bench is infinitely better without an apron.


Yebbut mine's bigger than yours.


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## DTR (18 Jul 2017)

Watching with interest..... in the hope that this thread doesn't turn into an argument about aprons, vices or tool wells....


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## Bm101 (18 Jul 2017)

richarnold":g1zphw7u said:


> Bm101":g1zphw7u said:
> 
> 
> > Richard, use BBCode box. When you add your link. click on it then right click on here to add the link. will display your pics. You can reduce/edit the pic size in imgur before you share. This helps on here because imjur displays regular size pictures. Umlike Nabs ones lol
> ...


Is this any better.


Perfect. Although that bench does _still_ look fairly big.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXypyrutq_M

(I STILL can't work out how to embed youtube links :| )


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## El Barto (18 Jul 2017)

Nabs, sorry to hear about your setback. If it's any consolation I made countless pineapple ups with my bench. The biggest of which was timber choice - started with CLS, realised it was utter dung and started again with PAR. It was worth it in the end but an annoying conclusion to come to.

And you're right, you haven't really wasted much time because you've gained invaluable experience in the process.


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## nabs (18 Jul 2017)

cheers El Barto, no doubt further cock-ups await my next attempt, but I will plug on regardless! BM you can use this to embed youtube:


```
[youtube]GiH1-4C0-h4[/youtube]
```


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## nabs (19 Jul 2017)

attempt 2 is underway! I took Jacob's advice and got some decent 4x4 redwood, it is 3 times the price of crappy fence posts but has very few knots and no splits or cracks. I prepared all the bits for the legs this evening and it was much quicker than my first attempt - some of this down to the fact that the posts were already planed, but surely some of the time saving was down to my new 'Paul Sellers' rag-in-a-can-oiler! Highly recommended!


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## Steve Maskery (19 Jul 2017)

Good move, Nick, and I assume that you have already found that it is more satisfying, probably 3x as satisfying , to work with!


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## nabs (19 Jul 2017)

it is indeed Steve - I was astonished by how hard the knots were in the wood I used before, they were almost glass-like - horrible!


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## El Barto (20 Jul 2017)

It really amazed me how much nicer it was to work with too. And feels nicer all round.


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## Jacob (20 Jul 2017)

El Barto":3qo1rleu said:


> It really amazed me how much nicer it was to work with too. And feels nicer all round.


Pleased to hear it!
Good quality redwood is a pleasure to work with. 
In spite of all the moanings and groanings top quality redwood is available (Swedish 'unsorted' and others) but not from B&Q! 
The only thing you can't (often) get is very wide boards from old growth - it's nearly all farmed.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Jul 2017)

I read many years ago that Sweden sorted out their timber industry iirc in the '50s, whereby the forest owner could only collect a certain% of the timber sale price until the land was cleared, then only a certain % til it was replanted. At that time they could build a timber built house every 22 minutes without depleting timber stock.


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## nabs (21 Jul 2017)

well my newly purchased wood for the legs is 'scandinavian' unsorted and I think up to scratch.

I am now more or less back to where I was before messing up the first set of legs, and the redwood is indeed a lot nicer to work with. It is even easier to markup as the knife/gauge leaves a clear line compared to the squishy stuff, however, this did not stop me from marking up the wrong end of a (clearly labeled) leg, thus placing all the joints on the few knots I was trying to avoid. Luckily I noticed before I started sawing.

Talking of which, my sawing has improved and although I realize I may have been banging on a bit about the joys of the Rag In A Can Oiler recently, I think it really has helped my technique. For the first time I was able to do what the books say and let the weight of my tenon saw do the work, whereas before I'd have to sort of shove it forward. The result was that I began sawing straight - quite a revelation!

I won't have much time in the next couple of weeks so will try and get the unnecessary leg brace done and the legs glued up this weekend and then come back to do the aprons in early August.

In other news I realized that I had measured the dovetails that receive the aprons wrong on my first attempt, so had I carried on I would have eventually found the aprons did not fit. Thus it appears I was lucky to have a catastrophic cock-up when i did rather than find out later on.

My only lingering worry about the new legs is I have had to use 1 1/2 inch timber for the rails, rather than the chunky 1 3/4'' I had before. I hope this will not make a difference - we shall see!

toodles

nabs

The joys of good quality wood - in the v1 legs this type of chiselling tended to cause large lumps to chip out no matter how careful I was:






one of the good things about being so hopeless at woodwork that you have to do most things twice is that you get a lot of practice! The joints fit better this time round:






deja vu:


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## El Barto (21 Jul 2017)

Clean!


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## sundaytrucker (22 Jul 2017)

Sorry to hear about your balls up but it looks like you have come out it with something you will be happier with. Those joints look nice and snug. 

I made a few errors and considered starting again, it is probably why the bench went on hold while I improved my skill level. I still might yet.


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## nabs (22 Jul 2017)

I finished the unnecessary leg brace, and the result is a rather complex looking set of recesses on the front RHS leg - it is not as complex as it looks to do, since you are just doing a series of simple half lap dovetails.






I managed to avoid any major cock-ups today, but to make up for it I discovered one that I made earlier. 

Mr Maquire says at one point in his video instruction that you need to reduce the width of the top rail so it does not stick out below the bottom of the apron. Although I did cut them down, apparently my measurements were out by 1/2'' resulting in the ridiculous situation below. I decided it would look less awful to leave the little dangly bits that will be below the apron (rather than having a gap). Having said that, I will almost certainly snap one or more of the dangly bits off during the forthcoming work, so it is probably irrelevant!






Since the top part of my half laps are quite thin, I drilled pilot holes for the nails - this was an opportunity to try out my Millers Falls no 2 drill, which from my tool fiddling records (I know, I kept records!) I see that I bought for £25 in March 2016 (this is the first time I have used it since then). It is a good drill, and handily it came with all the original drill bits, one of which I used to make my holes. I probably need to do a few more holes to justify the 25 quid!






remembering my previous major cock-up occurred at this very stage, I bottled it and postponed the glue up until tomorrow.

toodles


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## Jacob (22 Jul 2017)

I'm sure it'll work out but if you do have to start again (again) there are better designs.


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## nabs (22 Jul 2017)

don't be daft Jacob, this is the best trad English bench design ever! A big, beautiful bench that will make your head spin!


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Jul 2017)

Jacob":2tbjv8t8 said:


> I'm sure it'll work out but if you do have to start again (again) there are better designs.




How do you know? He's not building it for you.


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## nabs (23 Jul 2017)

Jacob":1bd5erex said:


> I'm sure it'll work out but if you do have to start again (again) there are better designs.



I know I shouldn't encourage you, but I am curious about what you see as better in the other design?

Assuming you are still refering to the Paul Sellers bench mentioned earlier, they are basically the same, aren't they - two leg assemblies, two aprons and a top. The main differences are optional (tool well, leg brace, thin top and bearers vs thick laminated top). Why do you see one as better than the other?

PS I am genuinely interested to know!


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## Jacob (23 Jul 2017)

nabs":1r0q05hu said:


> Jacob":1r0q05hu said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure it'll work out but if you do have to start again (again) there are better designs.
> ...


Those strange dovetailed housed half lap joints are very quirky. Can't see them having any purpose or being any better than a straightforward mortice and tenon. Or a straight lap joint without DTs.
Don't want to put you off though - I'm sure it'll come out fine.


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## custard (23 Jul 2017)

Well done Nabs!

Congratulations on your bench build, you're overcoming the inevitable set backs, avoiding the temptation to rush through the job, and generally doing a very fine job. 

=D>


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## nabs (23 Jul 2017)

many thanks for the encouragement Custard 

Jacob, if it is an consolation, RM says that half lap dovetails are common on old English benches - so even if they are strange/quirky at least they are trad. Here are some of them for you to enjoy!







the glue up and nailing was uneventful, although the front set are very slightly out of square and a gap appeared on the rear legs, neither of issues which were apparent during the trial fits (I did several!), so I guess I went wrong during the nailing. I only managed to miss the nail and bash the wood once during proceedings, which was not bad going I thought.

They seem very sturdy - no doubt thanks to those weird half-lap dovetails!


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## nabs (24 Jul 2017)

Jacob":3mwqa14q said:


> Those strange dovetailed housed half lap joints are very quirky. Can't see them having any purpose or being any better than a straightforward mortice and tenon. Or a straight lap joint without DTs.
> Don't want to put you off though - I'm sure it'll come out fine.



given your line of work, I rather suspect you are well aware of the relative merits of these joints, but in case you were having a senior moment and need a reminder (don't worry, it happens to all of us!) here is a refresher on the dovetailed half laps (aka _dovetail halvings_, apparently). Even if it is old news to you, hopefully other beginners like me may find it interesting:










Thanks to AndyT who shared the link to this book in another unrelated post:
https://www.archive.org/stream/modernca ... 7/mode/1up


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Jul 2017)

To be fair to Jacob, he didn't so much say they were unknown to him or pointless just that they were overkill in this instance. I'd think he was right. It's not as if it's a huge timber framed barn or something. If a dovetail there was actually needed, the construction and design would be suspect - which it isn't.


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## Jacob (24 Jul 2017)

I meant its an odd joint to use like that, for this project. 
It'll work but a wedged M&T would be better and probably easier. Or a straight housing joint without the tapers.
Tip; gluing up - flood _both_ meeting surfaces all over with glue. You can't have too much (though you may waste a bit) but you can have too little.


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## nabs (24 Jul 2017)

ah I see - in that case, apologies for my sarky response! 

Don't the dovetails help prevent the legs racking/pulling apart e.g when shoving the bench round your workshop?

thanks for the tip on gluing - as it happens I did notice that RM applied the glue to both surfaces, so I did the same - I wasn't really sure how much was needed so just tied to create a sort of fattish film.

The final two things I did over the weekend were to attach the top bearers and also to clean up my vice, which I bought last April. Once I removed all the crud, paint, dried oil etc and applied some lubricant it works very well and there does not seem to be any serious wear to the nut or screw.
A tip I got from this forum was to use teflon lube for this type of job as it forms a dry coating and does not attract shavings/dust/dirt as much as light oil or grease (apparently it is popular for bicycle chains for the same reason)

One reason for taking it apart, other than to clean it, was to see how practical it would be to reassemble it when the rear carriage was attached to the bench. The answer is that it would be awkward but not impossible.

The reason I'm interested - and apologies in advance to sticky-out vice fans - is I am thinking about mounting it flush to the apron, and I thought one way to do this was to mount the rear carriage (separated from the rest of the vice) on the inside of the bench (using coach screws to attach it to the top and apron) and then to create a slot in the apron so the screw and rails can be pushed through into the rear carriage

The downside is that you lose an inch or so from full extent the vice opens, but it does mean you can screw in all 4 bolts on the rear carriage to the bench top (if you face mount it then 2 of the holes are obscured by the apron) and this might be useful in my case as I will have a thin top (~1 1'2 '' after flattening) to receive the screws.

The alternative seems to be to create a recess in the apron to receive the rear metal jaw, which I am not sure has any particular advantage over the above (other than not having to dismantle the vice), does it?.

c.f Richard Arnold's bench for an example - Richard if you are reading, how did you do to fit yours?


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## richarnold (24 Jul 2017)

Hi, I fitted the vice in the same way as I always have. I cut out an aperture in the apron that the whole vice can fit through, then screw a board back over the top section that is flush with the apron ( this is obscured by the leather facing, but you can just see the outline.)
Just out of interest , here's a shot of the Victorian bench that inspired my own build.


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## nabs (24 Jul 2017)

thanks for the explanation, and also for the pic of the old bench leg (good to know I'm not alone!)


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## bugbear (24 Jul 2017)

nabs":3rjor4to said:


> many thanks for the encouragement Custard
> 
> Jacob, if it is an consolation, RM says that half lap dovetails are common on old English benches - so even if they are strange/quirky at least they are trad.


Half lap dovetails are _very_ common in house/barn timber framing (which are not glued), less common in joinery/cabinet framing (which are glued); perhaps larger benches leant towards timber framing design practice.

BugBear


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## Jacob (25 Jul 2017)

bugbear":1qefprl3 said:


> nabs":1qefprl3 said:
> 
> 
> > many thanks for the encouragement Custard
> ...


Well yes.
Perhaps larger benches leant towards timber framing design practice when designed/made by timber frame practitioners. Joiners/ cabinet makers would go for the much superior mortice and tenon.


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## bugbear (25 Jul 2017)

Jacob":3g45fn1t said:


> bugbear":3g45fn1t said:
> 
> 
> > nabs":3g45fn1t said:
> ...



I'm _fairly sure_ timber framers use M&T where they find it to be superior; they're the market place for the wonderful old "boring machines" and the modern portable chain mortiser death machine.










BugBear


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## nabs (25 Jul 2017)

thanks all (and for the boring machine pic - never seen such a thing);

Assuming half lap dovetails are 'good enough' for a workbench (and at least one has held up for around 100 years - see the victorian bench in the earlier post) then I suppose the other factors in choosing them is the amount of time needed to make them and aesthetics. 

As it happens I like how the dovetails look (and the unnecessary leg brace, with doubly unnecessary dovetail added to the top side of it, adds a further bit of glamour!), but I am afraid I have never done a mortice and tenon joint so can't compare the effort or difficulty involved.

*Aprons!*

I was reading thetyreman's workbench build thread and there is an interesting discussion on a the potential weakness of this type of design:

#p1102608

and a suggested improvement - via Paul Sellers - by the addition of wedges. To quote the man himself:
https://paulsellers.com/2012/06/making- ... kbench-11/


> When I have made benches in the past, I found that even with glue and screws or bolts, shoving them across uneven floors carelessly or regularly can rack the joints, break the glue line and weaken the rigidity of the bench. Including the joint around the leg area is quick and simple with a handful of basic tools and eliminates this problem.



the context for this comment is in a discussion on his knock-down bench design, but the same logic would seem to to apply to a fixed bench (and indeed in the workbench build thread above, Custard recalls seeing similarly problems with - admittedly very well used - benches in the past).

My question is that, given the addition of wedges looks like it will add only a small amount of effort to the overall build, can anyone see a reason _not_ to do it?


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## Jacob (25 Jul 2017)

Yes, spot on BB!
That DT half lap was often a joist to beam joint in floors with just one taper the other edge being straight through but the housing wide enough for folding wedges, keeping the thing tightly wedged in place.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Jul 2017)

If you think your bench will rack dragging it across the floor once in a blue moon, I suggest you don't start making chairs.


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## AndyT (25 Jul 2017)

There's an alternative solution, which is to fix your bench to the floor. This is what I have done, but my bench is nothing like as elegant as yours and doesn't even have proper joints, bar a few crude half laps. 
Wedges look useful to me. The only downside would be if they are not needed, but if you look on the bench as a fun project to extend your experience, go for it.


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## nabs (25 Jul 2017)

phil.p":2cpzggx4 said:


> ..., I suggest you don't start making chairs.



not much chance of that (unless they can be made solely with half lap dovetails, as that is the only joint I know how to do!).

Andy has got the gist of this endeavour right - it is for fun and learning (and hopefully something useful will come out the other end) and on that basis it seems the wedges are a go-go!


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## El Barto (25 Jul 2017)

I was under the impression that Paul Sellers only added wedges because he planned on transporting the bench to shows/workshops etc so wanted to be able to dismantle it. 

But like you said, adding them is pretty straightforward so why the hell not.


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## sundaytrucker (25 Jul 2017)

I like the look of the lapped dovetails and it was one of the reasons I wanted to build Maguire's English Workbench. 

There is a guy on Instagram making an English workbench, he is a former student at Tom Fidgen's school in Canada and it looks pretty dman good. I think he has used dowels rather than nails.

https://www.instagram.com/filippoxt/


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## nabs (25 Jul 2017)

the instagram chap did a brilliant job - I wish I hadn't looked now


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## sundaytrucker (25 Jul 2017)

nabs":26mfv76n said:


> the instagram chap did a brilliant job - I wish I hadn't looked now



I know sickening isn't it?! 

However your trestles are looking great too, I am really looking forward to seeing the next stage of your build when it all starts to look like a bench.


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## nabs (8 Aug 2017)

back to the bench at the weekend - I was feeling a bit under the weather and made more gaffs than really necessary, but the end result is at least starting to look like a bench.

I am glad I did the wedges - it has added an hour or so (most of which was spent making the wedges - a top tip is to make the the recess for your legs the same depth as your wedge material to avoid some work preparing the wedges. I didn't do this, naturally!). 







One benefit of the wedges that I see for fellow learners who are worried about creating the odd sloppy joint is that the wedges make the leg joints (which have to be a tight fit) a bit less worrisome as it only takes a couple of strokes with a plane to adjust the wedge to a good fit and it is a small job to make a replacement if you go wrong.

Blunders:
1. When cutting the first notch in the bottom of the apron to fit over the half dovetail on the leg I forgot that the recess I made for the leg was wider than the leg (to accommodate the wedge) and measured the notch wrong as a result. sigh. Luckily I had the forethought to make this mistake on the rearmost leg so it will not be on view.






As far as I can tell these notches are basically decorative and I found they added a fair bit of work since there isn't a way to mark the notches from the respective legs - measuring and adjustment are needed to get them to fit. I think you can dispense with them if you are in a hurry. 

2. The brace did not fit the apron properly - I spent an hour of hapless fiddling with the joints to get them to fit only to realise that the source of my problem was I had used material for the brace that was thinner than the aprons. The brace is attached by two lap joints, one on the outside of the leg and the other on the inside of the apron and - because I did not allow for the thinner brace timber - it was seated at a skewed angle to the face of the bench. I suppose the correct fix is to deepen the recess on the inside of the apron so that the brace goes in flush to the leg, but I am worried all my previous fiddling will result in worse problems down the road if I try to do this now.

3. Although I flattened the inside bits of the apron where the legs would go to make it easier to mark out, I did not check to see if there was any twist between the two surfaces. It turned out that one of the boards is quite twisted and the result was that it would not fit to the legs without large gaps. I managed to get rid of most of the problem by adjusting the joints (and the rest I hope will be resolved when I glue the legs) but I think it would have been much quicker to have got out the winding sticks and a plane to get the two parts of the board where the legs go out of twist before cutting the joints. 

Anyhow, here is where I am now - the aprons are only held by wedges and it is very solid - I have been moving it around my (tiny) workshop and it has not fallen apart, so hopefully that bodes well for the final result!


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## custard (8 Aug 2017)

> "the aprons are only held by wedges and it is very solid"



That's the key thing, you're guaranteed that solidity for the full life of the bench, because you're not relying on glue, bolts, or the fit of the legs in the housing joint. I guess in this day and age it's unlikely you'll do hours of heavy planing at your bench, so it's all a bit hypothetical. But if you did, and subjected the bench to rhythmic racking for hour after hour then you'd know that,

1. The leg will shrink more than the (long grain) housing, so that will open up a minute amount of play
2. The glue will fail, glue always fails eventually
3. At this point the hard metal bolts will start wearing the softer wooden round bolt holes into ovals.

Once 1 to 3 have happened then the continued racking will make things worse, the harder end grain of the apron housing will begin crushing the softer long grain fibres of the leg, any remaining glue will let go, and the ovalled holes will become ever more oval!

Smashing job by the way, very well done!


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## nabs (10 Aug 2017)

thanks Custard!

Not very interesting, but I cut the housings for the braces - I also made the housing for the unnecessary leg brace deeper so it fits properly. Next step is to glue and nail it all together. erk! 

I have been giving some thought to fitting the vice - although apparently not enough thought. Inspired by richardarnold's extended QR vice (see pic above) I had decided to try similar, and I was going to use a bit of remaining 4x4' to make a big chunky guide which would have been a thrilling opportunity to do my first M&T (double!) joint. 

as a result I place the front legs quite far forward to make room for the guide to go on the right of the vice only to realize while fitting the unnecessary leg brace that I am host by own pertard: the guide would interfere with the housing for this part. I then had the much better idea to put the guide on the left of the vice only to realise that (having moved the legs forward to make room for the other design) there was no longer enough room at the end of the bench to do this. <sigh>

never mind - as a wise man once said, you live and learn and then you die and forget it all.

onwards and upwards!


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Aug 2017)

A really nice piece of work ... but I can't help thinking you've done whole load of work for no return.


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## nabs (10 Aug 2017)

quite possibly, although you might have to eat your words in 100 years time when it is still in one piece . 

The benefit in my case is that I am learning the basics so the more opportunities to practice on something real, the better. For instance, I have done enough housings now to get my O level in housings (borderline C/D grade!)


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## nabs (10 Aug 2017)

glued and nailed - not a complicated job, but I rehearsed it just in case. What could go wrong I hear you ask? Well, nothing major but my nails were slightly too long and poked out the other side of the legs. I suppose only I will know (and whoever reads this thread) but they lurk there nonetheless, waiting to impale me while I fit the vice.

A lot of flattening lies ahead so that should make for some thrilling updates! To liven things up I will be comparing my little used wooden jack plane with my Record #5 when flattening the top. Exciting times indeed!


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## DTR (11 Aug 2017)

nabs":1uvco96z said:


> nothing major but my nails were slightly too long and poked out the other side of the legs. I suppose only I will know (and whoever reads this thread) but they lurk there nonetheless, waiting to impale me while I fit the vice.



Bend the pointy ends of the nails over and hammer them back into the wood. Then tell everyone that you clenched them deliberately for extra strength 

Good work so far


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## El Barto (11 Aug 2017)

nabs":3vl6puz4 said:


> The benefit in my case is that I am learning the basics so the more opportunities to practice on something real, the better.



Totally agree. 

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the flattening. Mine took FOREVER. I started off with a No. 4 and quickly realised it wasn't going to work for me so got a 5 1/2 which was ideal. I've used it for pretty much everything since then.

The bench is looking brilliant!


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## nabs (11 Aug 2017)

well since you ask, here is my first flattening update. I really had no excuses since over the past couple of years I have bought and refurbished a number of planes including a no5 and no 7 which ought to be a good combination for this type of job and I made sure the irons were very sharp.

First step is to bring the aprons down in line with the top of the leg assemblies - ideally you should undercut the inside edge slightly so that when the top goes on it makes a tight fit. Using the jack plane to get the bulk of was uneventful (and quick). After I clattered the inside of the bench with the back of the no 7 for the fifth time it occurred to me that flailing around like a mad gibbon was probably not the required approach - I slowed down and things improved markedly - I then remembered my fabulous rag-in-a-can-oiler (baked beans) [copyright P. Sellers] and things improved further.

I still managed to drag out a job that took Mr R Maquire 10 mins to around an hour (and his bench is more than twice the length of mine :shock: )

I do not have a long straight edge so tried to do it all by eye, which is what RM encourages - we will have to wait until the top goes on to see if there are any unsightly gaps between the top and the apron.

Next you fit the bearers, the housings for which were measured to the top of the unflattened apron tops, and thus need planing down too. This was a bit more efficient, partly because they are short, but also because I realised you can get much closer to the finish point with the jack plane than I had first thought, and this means the amount of finessing is much reduced.

On inspecting my work thus far, I think it is best described as erratic - for instance, if I look at the way the aprons and legs are joined at the front of the bench, I think it is not a bad effort, if I say so myself. Then towards the back there is a horror of a gap - admittedly I did all my first attempts at new techniques on this end as it will be furthest away from me when I use the bench (a dubious strategy with hindsight, as all your major first-attempt errors end up in one place!) and actually it is not quite as bad as it looks - the leg is a tight fit, I just did a sloppy job cutting the top bearer. Not sure what I was thinking then, although I vaguely remember doing those joints around the time Trump first tweeted his intention to fire nuclear bombs at North Korea, so possibly our intemperate orange friend is to blame. I wouldn't be surprised!

A bearer:





not bad:





oh dear:





oh no!:


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## nabs (13 Aug 2017)

earlier today I flattened the undersides of the 3 boards that will make up the top. El Barto, I did time it and it took 45 minutes in total - much quicker than I expected. However, I suspect this is an advantage of the planked top design, since you only have to worry about getting the boards reasonably flat, the idea being that any twist or bowing/cupping along the length will be removed when you nail it down. 

I did test this to be sure and the straightest board went down without gaps under its own weight, the worst one could still be pressed down with just hand pressure.






No doubt I will need a lot longer on the top surface!

It was a good opportunity to experiment too - I did the faces of two board with a wooden jack and one with a Record #5. I had cambererd the irons in both and this leaves a sort of rippled surface so I finished them with my #7 jointer. I preferred using the wooden jack, mainly because it is a lot lighter, but also because it has a wider iron and takes more off in one go (I may have overdone the cambers a bit, and the #5 takes quite narrow savings, albeit they can be very fat).






I spent another half an hour squaring and flattening the edges - I much preferred using a metal plane for this as I found the top heavy wooden jointer a bit unwieldy and harder to balance.

I did have a quick go with a #4 for flattening the face ala Paul Sellers, and my conclusion was that the £20 needed to get a wooden jack plane is money well spent for this type of job!

Richard Maquire's bench build video series contains a short episode discussing bench height - his preference when doing a lot of timber preparation is to have a low bench as it means you can get your whole body into the work. As an experiment I planed the tops on my new frame which (without the top) this is 33'' high vs my current bench which is 35'' - I was surprised at the difference - particularly with the wooden plane which of course you hold higher than a metal plane due to its shape - it was noticeably less tiring on the lower bench. 

the final job for today was to rip the middle board down by 1'' so the three boards together fit my 24'' wide frame - with hindsight it would have been far more sensible to just make the frame 25'' and avoid this task, but for some reason I got it into my head that a 24'' bench was what I needed. I was not really looking forward to this and it was sorely tempting to dig out my track saw, but I stuck to my goal to do everything with hand tools. 

It took 13 minutes, which I suppose is not much longer than it would have taken me to set up the rail and saw, find the extention lead, do the cut, tidy up etc , however, the hand saw did involve having a near heart-attack which needs to be weighed in the balance. What I learned is that my saw, which when I got it, never having had a proper rip saw before - I believed had huge teeth (6 ppi) could really have done with far fewer (e.g 4 ppi or less?).

I also ordered the coach screws for the vice, which I hope to fit next week.


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## Bm101 (13 Aug 2017)

Crack on Nabs. Enjoying the build as always mate.


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## nabs (14 Aug 2017)

thanks BM, I appreciate the encouragement. Only a few more of my vapid warblings to go before the end (I hope!)

Today's update consists entirely of making holes - hole 1 is for the bench stop, hole 2 (more of a trench really) is to accommodate the top of the rear jaws of the vice.

My brilliant plan for the vice is to fit it on the inside of the apron and, so it will sit slightly lower than the top, it is necessary to create a trench (housing - is that the right term?) in the underside of the top. I chopped the trench so it ended 1/4'' under the top surface and I hope this is enough to allow for an initial few flattenings before the top of the trench is exposed and I have to fit a hardwood insert. An insert is probably not a bad idea in the long run as it would be less liable to being dented etc , but I do not have any suitable timber at the moment so I am hoping the top of the vice does not make an unwelcome appearance during the first flattening attempt...

Obviously fitting the vice like this means the apron will form the rear face of the vice. Those who have read Paul Sellers' views on this matter will know one of his reasons for preferring a sticky-out vice is that it makes placing large pieces in the vice easier, because you can use a natural grip for heavy work (e.g putting it under your right arm) without the apron getting in the way. I confess I found exactly this problem when when planing the edges of the planks for the top in my old vice (which is also flush fitted), often resorting to holding the wood in a pinch grip from the top which is far from ideal.

Nonetheless I am persisting with my flush fitting vice as I am intrigued to see what can be done when using the apron as a working surface, my thought being I can always add an a bit of timber on the apron if I don't like it.

One other job I forgot to mention is to check the frame for twist. I was lucky in my case as it was not twisted (apparently longer benches tend to twist in line with any unevenness of the floor as they are not fully stiffened until the top is on - in this case you can use wedges under the legs to get rid of the twist before fixing on the top)

toodles!

hole for the bench stop - it will be just behind the vice






morice/trench/housing/whatever it is called in the underside of the top to accomodate the the rear jaw of the vice - I made it bigger than the rear jaw to allow some wriggle room when fitting:


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## nabs (16 Aug 2017)

top glued and nailed on. With a bit of judicious clamping there are no gaps where the top and the aprons joint (at least for now!).

You need a decent hammer for this type of bench - I counted over 100 nails - mine's made by Plumb and I like it a lot.

'only' flattening, vice, bench stop and finishing to go!

toodles


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## Bm101 (16 Aug 2017)

Christ on a bike these guys look like the life and soul though don't they! :shock: 

Looking good Nabs.


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## nabs (16 Aug 2017)

that reminds me, when I lived in London as a yoof I used to go to Speakers Corner on a regular basis, and without fail would see the same elderly chap in a french beret shuffling around - no soap box, but he had a sandwich board saying 'its going to get worse'

Eventually my mate Neil plucked up the courage to ask him what, exactly, was going to get worse and the answer was ....'the weather'. Another elderly attendee claimed the chap had been coming with the same board for at least 50 years!


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## nabs (17 Aug 2017)

flattening

I did the initial flattening of the top in about 40 minutes - I used my wooden planes, the jack to take off the high points and then the jointer to work across the grain. The result is not pretty but is reasonably flat, and I will clean it up on another day.

The apron took just over an hour. I used the metal planes for this, which I find a lot more tiring but easier to do more accurate work with than the woodies.

I got it as flat as I could and made sure it was square to the top - as with previous flattening jobs I stopped too early with the rough set plane and therefore spent more (knackering) time lugging the no 7 about than necessary. I suppose this is just a question of confidence as I stopped early just in case I went too far with the rough plane and do something that can't be fixed, but in practice I could have got much closer to the end result without any issues.

I was pleased that with how the joint between the apron and the top turned out (no gaps!)

next job is to install the vice but this will have to wait until next week as I am out of time this week. Talking about vices I must finish my riveting thread about the history of Record QR vices - contain your excitement if you can!

toodles


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## AndyT (17 Aug 2017)

Is the bench in the place where it will stay, with all that lovely natural light?
If so, I expect lots more arty photos of future projects!


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## nabs (17 Aug 2017)

I am going to turn it 45 degrees so it goes under the far window - one of the reasons for making it was I put the last one (which is not portable!) against the rear wall where the light is poor, and when the sun shines the shadows pay havoc with my increasingly blurry eyesight.

I am afraid all the credit for the arty photos goes entirely to the engineering team who made the camera in my iPhone - I just point it in the right direction and the software does all the rest


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## Bm101 (18 Aug 2017)

Don't get a big head Nabs they are not even black and white photos mate. Pssshhhh.


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## nabs (18 Aug 2017)

in this one I attempt to convey the spirit of the nail and its eternal struggle with the timber etc.


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## Bm101 (18 Aug 2017)

Alright. I owe you a pint for that lol. Guinness only.


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## memzey (19 Aug 2017)

nabs":2088fi4o said:


> in this one I attempt to convey the spirit of the nail and its eternal struggle with the timber etc.


Lol! 

Whereabouts in Herts are you guys? Anywhere near my neck of the woods?


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## nabs (21 Aug 2017)

a few miles from St Albans - of course I can't give specific details in case BM finds out and tries to force that Guinness on me!.

I have now flattened the top and rear apron - it took about an hour and forty five minutes (for the rear I just took off the grungy surface but made no effort to flatten it). This is in addition tof the time I spent previously removing the high spots on the top and doing the front apron, so all together I have spent a several hours flattening. 

I followed the formula specified by Mr Maguire (remove obvious high spots, go across the grain until you get full shavings; go diagonal in one direction then return in the other; finally a few full length shavings). I did check regularly that it was getting flatter but it seems that this technique does not require a lot of skill and the top came out flat despite my inexperience. Mind you, I am pretty sure having a long plane helped.

I did go over the top with a smoother, forgetting that I will have to turn the bench upside down to install the vice thus scratching and marking it all over again.











I then cut off the end of the bench to level it up.






Finally, I drilled 4 holes for the vice, thinking this would save time compared with chopping out a larger single mortice (this step actually added loads of unnecessary faffing around, so don't copy me!).

I have a 1 1/4 auger bit that was included in a mixed bag of bits and this is just the right size to accommodate the screw, rods and QR mechanism with a bit of wiggle room.

I sharpened the bit first - a task I had been nervous of doing before getting this mixed bunch of bits to practice on, however it turns out there is not a lot to know :

1. you can sharpen the 'spurs' (the spurs score the circumference of the hole to create a neat cut), but you should only file them on the inside edge. Otherwise you will reduce the diameter of the circle that is scored so the entrance to the hole is more likely to torn by the cutting lips as they enter the wood.
2. sharpening the cutting lips can be done with a saw file - a few gentle strokes is normally enough, and then a very light pass underneath to remove any burr (note that you don't need to get them particularly sharp for them to cut).

The only thing I have found that actually stops them working is when the feed screw is knackered or when there is an insufficient relief angle on the underside of the cutting edges (in which case the shavings push the bit out of the hole and stop the lead screw from getting a purchase). It is easy to fix the latter by making the underside of the cutting lips a bit steeper - not sure if a dodgy feed screw can be fixed though.

anyhow, I digress. I'll do another update tomorrow - nearly done!


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## custard (21 Aug 2017)

nabs":20noc5zx said:


> in this one I attempt to convey the spirit of the nail and its eternal struggle with the timber etc.



Very good!

And the bench is none too shabby either.


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## El Barto (22 Aug 2017)

Looking great


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## DTR (22 Aug 2017)

Looking good =D>


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## sundaytrucker (22 Aug 2017)

This is looking great Nabs.


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## nabs (23 Aug 2017)

thanks all!

As I mentioned earlier, my brilliant plan of drilling separate holes for the bars/screw/QR mechanism for the vice was not a success. The holes have to be positioned exactly right and, although I had the holes in the right place, it seems I had not drilled them completely square and both the rods were binding on the walls of the holes. I wasted some time trying to adjust the undercarriage position (turn bench over, remove all the screws, reposition, find it flip bench, find it did not work etc) before concluding the only way to do fix it was to gouge out the edges of my previously perfectly neat holes.

Several bench flips later and I go it to work properly. Matters were made worse when it turned out some buffoon (me) and removed my ratchet-spanner and hidden it in the boot of the car, only for it to be rediscovered a day after it was needed. Thus I turned a 30 minute job into 3 hours of fannying around - if I were doing it again I would just cut out a large single mortice (with plenty of wriggle room) to allow all the components through the apron.

Not a lot to say about fixing the vice - you need to make up a wooden spacer or two and then you can either bolt it through the top or use coach screws from underneath 











I used 70mm M10 coach screws for the undercarriage and M6s for the jaws*.

The wooden insert on the front jaw is a maple and salvaged from the vice on my old bench.

I also made the bench stop - not a lot to say really, you just plane it a fraction bigger than the mortice and then take a few savings off until it is a tight fit. Apparently it is possible to split the top along the long grain if you make that dimension too tight, so be careful.

I may have to replace it with harder wood in the future (i used a bit of old fence post, which is all I had).

* for those after doing a proper job, the rear jaws of old record vices have a screw threaded hole (1/4'' BSW)


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## nabs (24 Aug 2017)

*finishes*

Tradition has it that you should either use a 50/50 mix of boiled linseed oil* and turpentine or not bother with a finish at all. I still like to do a bit of tool fiddling now and then - which often involves some grubby metalworking - so I decided to put a finish on mine to stop the worst of the dirt getting embedded in the top.

I don't like the dog wee yellow colour of BLO on pine so I decided to make my own concoction. The look I was going for was muddy orange with blotches, and bingo! This is exactly what I got!

Quite probably Farrow and Ball will be along with their own version soon but in the unlikely event you can't wait then you can make your own by simply mixing some miscellaneous brown varnish with BLO and turps in roughly equal proportions. I added that little extra touch of class by using a jar from some Waitrose sun-dried plum tomatoes (the label fell off, so you will have to take my word for it).






I didn't try to remove the various bumps and scratches caused by my vice fitting shenanigans on the basis that the bench is going to get a battering over the coming months and years regardless.

the finish actually doesn't look too bad from certain angles:






.. but you get the full orange/blotch experience when the light is behind you:





so that's it, the bench is basically done. The only remaining task is to drill some holes for my new holdfasts, and a handful of other jobs I _might_ do at in the future:

* add a hardwood insert for the inside face of the vice
* add a shelf at either end 
* add a bench stop that goes length ways (see phil.p's bench above) - tbh I forgot about this, but I will wait now and see how I fair with the holdfasts before going ahead

I'll do a couple of post on the holdfasts + tools I used, vs the tools I actually needed, and that will be it. Thanks for watching!

_* PS It doesn't hurt to repeat the warning that BLO can spontaneously combust, particularly when left to dry on crumpled rags/tissues - lay them flat outside to dry_


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## DTR (24 Aug 2017)

=D> =D> =D>


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## John15 (24 Aug 2017)

Congratulations Nick. A job well done. Good luck with making some nice projects on it.

John


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## Bm101 (24 Aug 2017)

Great job Nabs and an entertaining read too. Job'sagoodun.


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## sundaytrucker (24 Aug 2017)

Nice job. The lapped dovetails are really quite cool and look so much better than a more traditional lap joint.


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## AndyT (24 Aug 2017)

Proper job!


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## nabs (26 Aug 2017)

finished! I am very pleased with the holdfasts - they are by Simon James and I got mine from Classic Hand Tools, delivered next day at the very reasonable price of £49 for the pair including delivery.


After flattening the front apron is just over 40mm and the holdfast need only a light tap to grip tight. I tried them in the top of my old bench which is 38mm and they worked there too, but it sometimes took a couple of firm taps to get them to hold (they have seem very well made and have a rough finish which I think must help them to work even if the top is a bit thinner than optimal).

One of the things about the new bench that I am really looking forward to is the holdfasts - I have never used them before but after a quick play with them I am sure they will be very useful.

I will put some holes in the top too, but haven't decided where to put them yet. Any recommendations?


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## AndyT (26 Aug 2017)

Lovely job. Years of fun ahead!

Re holes, I waited until I was making something and bored holes where I needed them. No big deal to whip out the brace and an auger bit each time you decide you need another one.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2017)

And think before you bore them about whether you might want to bolt down a drill stand, pillar drill, morticer or whatever. Kill two birds with one stone.


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## sundaytrucker (26 Aug 2017)

Shannon Rogers recently did a video on dog hole placement on his renaissance woodworker blog. I hope this helps. 

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/guide-to-workbench-dog-hole-placement/


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## jim1950 (30 Aug 2017)

like the idea of the english workbench got two old vices in good nic just need to make the space now, workshop full of wood and tools it trying to make up my mind what goes.


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## nabs (3 Sep 2017)

I know the bench is finished but I still have a couple of vaguely bench related topics to get off my chest. While I was researching woodworking vices (yes, I know) I came across this entry in the 1905 Melhuish catalogue (pic below).

Of course it was heartening to see they had used half-lap dovetail joints (although for some reason they have left off the unnecessary leg brace - I expect it was available as an optional extra!) but I also notice what appears to be a mortice behind the insert used to form the rear jaw of the vice. Does anyone know what this is for?







https://archive.org/stream/MelhuishCata ... 7/mode/2up

PS sundaytrucker, thanks for the link above - it was useful, in particular it had not occurred to me to space the holes out so that they are separated by roughly the diameter that the the holdy bit of the hold-fast travels (thus maximizing coverage per hole).


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## Bm101 (3 Sep 2017)

Wild guess... Pulling stuff apart?


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## AndyT (3 Sep 2017)

I reckon it might be the dark iron rear jaw, exposed flush with the bench rather than covered over by wood. It seems to be the right width for that.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2017)

That's what I thought - but why? That would make the metal front the same height as the surface of the woodwork as well, assuming the vice is the design as a Record. Anyone let alone a commercial manufacturer with any sense would lower it.


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## nabs (3 Sep 2017)

ah, of course - this also explains another mystery - I could not understand why Record went to the effort of putting a removable metal cover above the half nut on their quick-release vices. Bizarrely they patented this idea and the patent claims that tradesmen who make a sloppy mortice for the rear jaw are plagued by shavings falling in the gap and clogging up the mechanism - perhaps the above illustrates a common way to fit these vices?)


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## nabs (3 Sep 2017)

PS the vice shown is a one of these post1166725.html#p1166725 (made by Entwistle and Kenyon) - it does not work the same way as the Record, but I don't think there is anything about it that would mean you had to fit it flush with the top. Perhaps they are just easier to fit this way?


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## MusicMan (3 Sep 2017)

Congrats on the bench, lovely job.

I use the Simon James holdfasts almost daily, on a 75 mm beech top. No problem with them holding, I just give them a satisfying thump with a big mallet!

Always use a piece of scrap between the holdfast and the work, or it will damage the surface. Sometimes this can be used as a saw stop, for example this stopped slot being cut for a carving knife:






Personally I like the holes drilled in a regular grid.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2017)

And if you run a rounding over cutter around the holes it saves any tearing up of the bench top.


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## AndyT (3 Sep 2017)

Ok, having looked at the Melhuish bench on a bigger screen, here's Theory no 2.

The black rectangle is a thin piece of hardwood covering the rear jaw of the vice which is slightly lower than the rest of the surface. 

The difference is only about 1/4", judging from the height of the front jaw, and allowing for my guesswork. Cutting a stopped mortice into the desktop and leaving a bit of wood that thin would be difficult - you couldn't drill out the waste without the auger lead screw or centre-bit spike poking through the surface. Chiselling to depth by hand would be possible with care but it would be slow and risky. 

Instead, they sawed a big stepped notch from the front edge of the top board. The rear of this notch is the width of the iron vice jaw. The front is wider, the width of the wooden false jaw. Quick and easy to saw and chisel square. The only problem is the shallow depression above the top of the rear jaw. This gets filled in with a slip of hardwood, glued in. It's hardwood to make sure it doesn't flex and come out, so the engraver has shown it as dark in colour.

How's that for an explanation?


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## nabs (3 Sep 2017)

I think your original theory was right - these vices have a thick rear jaw (3/4-1''?) compared with the front and I think it is shown mounted flush with the top. 

I cut a stopped mortice to fit my own vice and the method you describe sounds a _lot_ faster (particularly if you remembered to do it before nailing the top and the apron together!)

Possibly the explanation for not inserting it a bit lower on the apron is that they could cut the notches only in the top board and simply drill a hole in the apron to fit the screw - as per Phil above, this does seem a bit short sighted though.









(pic from a lumberjocks thread: http://lumberjocks.com/gawthrrw/blog/93858)

edit: clearer pic here:


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## nabs (6 Sep 2017)

tools.
Paul Sellers and Richard Maguire go to admirable lengths to show how to build a workbench with a minimal set of tools, and without an existing bench. I was lucky to have a bench already, but they both go through their instructional videos using a couple of sawhorses and some basic tools: a hand saw, a chisel, a combination square, a marking gauge, a mallet and a marking knife. 

PS gets by with a single bench plane (a #4 smoother) - RM uses a couple of longer planes during his build, but argues that a no 4 or 5 could be used quite satisfactorily for the whole job, only pointing out that if you have access to a longer plane you'd be daft not to use it.

I am in the fortunate position of having collected a good selection of decent quality 'vintage' tools and thus had an opportunity to experiment - below are the tools I actually used.






*Bench planes: *
I used a wooden jack plane & a wooden jointer on some boards and a Record #5 & #7 on others. Generally I preferred the woodies for the rough prep work and the metal planes when I was trying to be more accurate. 

_Must haves_: 
Richard Maguire has a short video on which plane he would use if he had to chose a single plane and his conclusion is that a no 5 equipped with two irons (one cambered) would be ideal. Having experimented with cambered vs straight irons it is hard to overstate how much energy/time a cambered iron saves when doing the rough prep stages. Paul Seller’s shows what can be done with a humble no 4 if you know what you are doing, but as a learner I found longer planes really did help by removing some of the judgment from the process of flattening the boards. 

_Nice to have_:

#4 - I did use a smoother to do a final pass on the top but it really is not necessary (in fact I soon bumped and dented my pristine smoothed surface). BTW, my favourite smoother is a Miller Falls 209 which those of you who waded through my review of the same will know is one of the best smoothers in the world EVER!
#7/wooden jointer - If I were doing another bench and had to start my tool collection again I would still get a cheap 22' wooden jointer even if I only used it for this job. Having said that, of all my planes my Record #7 is the one I enjoyed using the most (they really don't make 'em like that any more!).

*Other planes*


* A block plane (A Veritas low angle block plane as it happened, but I am sure any other kind would do!). I suppose this was something of a luxury plane for the job at hand, but there were a few times where it was convenient to use the plane one-handed (for instance where the part is already installed on the bench and awkward to get to) and the block plane is ideal for this. A no 4 would have done the same at a stretch but would be unwieldy in comparison.
* Record shoulder plane - completely frivolous (good at cleaning up shoulders though!)

*Saws*
_Must-have:_ any old panel or hand saw (R Magurie makes do with a bog standard B&Q hardpoint for his whole bench). I used my Spearior 88 panel saw for most of mine.

_Nice to have_: I was glad to have a decent rip saw (Disston) when I had to reduce the width of one of the top boards, but you can easily avoid the need by adjusting your design to use full width boards so this cut is not needed. I used my 14’’ carcase saw (Drabble and Sanderson) for most to the cross cuts - it has 10 TPI so cuts reasonably quickly and I found the stiff blade and extra weight made it easier to saw straight.

One observation about my saws is that despite the fairly pedestrian desing of the Disston and Spearior handles they are very comfortable to use.

Compare my carcase saw which has a nice hand-made handle but was not nearly as nice to use. The reason is that - as is common with old saws - part of the top horn (the bit that fits over the web of your hand betwixt thumb and finger) has broken off at some point in the past. I have fixed the broken horns on couple of other saws and it is surprising how much difference this tiny bit of wood makes when using the saw (I probably should fix this one too!)

*Squares and hammers *
Everyone seems to agree it is worth splashing out on decent combination square. Mine is a 2nd hand Starrett. Incidentally, when I built my workshop I used a cheapo Bacho square for the whole thing - these can’t be relied upon to be square but can easily be made so by carefully filling the brass fitting that holds the blade in place. However I found that it only took the slightest knock to make it go out of square again - I guess that is why it is worth getting a decent one.

Hammers - everyone should own at least one Plumb hammer (ideally several!) and a Thor mallet. The internet seems to be reaching a consensus that Thor hammers are the bees knees for hitting chisels and bits of wood with (its true - try it!). 






*Chisels and drills*
I mainly used a 1 1’2 marbles bevel edge firmer and could have used it for the whole bench, bar one (optional) part when I created a blind mortice for the rear vice jaw which required a 1/2 '' chisel. I did use my W&P Aristocrat chisels for refining some of the joints, but I had no reason to do other than justifying my posh chisels.

You need a brace and 3/4'' auger bit for your holdfast holes. A millers falls no 2 drill is cool but entirely optional!

That’s it - what did I miss?


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## AndyT (6 Sep 2017)

Nail punch?


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## nabs (7 Sep 2017)

oh yes - that's an important one - your nail punch will get a lot of action if you do a nailed down plank top.

skills.

The good news for fellow newbies is you need hardly any! 

You can practice the basic skills needed as you go, just so long as you are prepared to make a few mistakes and accept you will have to work rather slowly. 

Although this was not my first project (I made a saw horse first), I'd still say a workbench is a good starter project because it can be done with relatively cheap materials and the scale you are working at means you can get away with some inaccuracy without the end product falling to bits or looking awful.

Having said that, there is one pre-requisite skill: sharpening - you need to be able to keep your chisels and planes sharp. Although it is relatively easy to learn how to do this, you may find you need a fair amount of practice to get the knack (I certainly did) and this is not something I'd recommend trying to learn on the job. It would be incredibly frustrating to try and do even the basic techniques needed for the bench using blunt tools, so do a bit of practice sharpening first!

There is a lot of bewildering - and sometimes contradictory - advice on sharpening. My advice, for what it is worth, is just to watch what Paul Sellers has to say on it and do that, or if you are feeling flush spend £24 on Richard Maquire's brilliant video series on the same, it is by far the most comprehensive and clear account I have come accross. Try and avoid trawling the internet for advice or your head may explode. You have been warned! 

Talking of Richard Maquire - the few quid I have spent on his workbench and sharpening video are easily the best woodworking investment I have made to date. He and his other half, Helen, clearly put in a huge amount of effort into their videos and it shows - they are beautifully filmed and produced and very easy to follow. 

Richard is a natural teacher and has an entertaining and very watchable approach - the videos are carefully thought out and there are a lot of really helpful close ups showing how he goes about each technique (frequently he shows more than one approach to accomplishing a task so you can experiment too). Highly recommended (I have no affiliation with their business, btw!)

that's it from me. Good luck to those of you about to embark on your own benches, I am sure you will enjoy it and learn a lot - don't forget to post your progress!


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## sundaytrucker (8 Sep 2017)

nabs":1541a9oo said:


> There is a lot of bewildering - and sometimes contradictory - advice on sharpening. My advice, for what it is worth, is just to watch what Paul Sellers has to say on it and do that, or if you are feeling flush spend £24 on Richard Maquire's brilliant video series on the same, it is by far the most comprehensive and clear account I have come accross. Try and avoid trawling the internet for advice or your head may explode. You have been warned!
> 
> Talking of Richard Maquire - the few quid I have spent on his workbench and sharpening video are easily the best woodworking investment I have made to date. He and his other half, Helen, clearly put in a huge amount of effort into their videos and it shows - they are beautifully filmed and produced and very easy to follow.
> 
> Richard is a natural teacher and has an entertaining and very watchable approach - the videos are carefully thought out and there are a lot of really helpful close ups showing how he goes about each technique (frequently he shows more than one approach to accomplishing a task so you can experiment too). Highly recommended (I have no affiliation with their business, btw!)



I am a huge fan of Richard Maguire and have bought everything he has released to date. The sharpening video series has made me reevaluate my tools and consider using older tools such as vintage Record and Stanley planes and plain Jane O1 steel.

Out of interest which method do you use, Maguire or Sellers?


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## nabs (9 Sep 2017)

I learned a lot of new things from the Maquire sharpening videos and this made me go and look again at what Paul Sellers demonstrates. Having done that I concluded that they are doing essentially thing, namely combining the grinding and honing steps at each sharpen resulting in a gently rounded bevel. 

The only subtle difference is that Maquire does nearly all the grinding and honing work at a lowish angle and then does a final few strokes on his fine stone at a steeper angle to hone the cutting edge, whereas Sellers does it all in one motion.

That's how I understood it anyway! 

Having watched the RM videos I did adopt the 2-step way he shows because I noticed that, before then, my bevels were tending to get steeper at each sharpen. This was just down to sloppy practice on my part - it is tempting to skip removing the material at the heel of the bevel in order to get to the bit where you hone the edge sooner - and I found keeping the iron lower for all but the last few strokes stopped me doing it.

sorry, probably a longer answer than you wanted!
cheers


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2017)

nabs":26csod5b said:


> .... my bevels were tending to get steeper at each sharpen. ....


I haven't watched either vid (life's too short!) but it sounds like they are doing the rounded bevel trick. 
The whole point of this is that to avoid rounding _over_ you deliberately round _under_ by dipping the blade as you thrust it forwards over the stone. The angle only hits 30º at the cutting edge at the start of the pass.
It's very simple and easy to do once you've got the idea. Also it's fast - most of the time you are working on the back of the bevel at less than 30º and can put as much force into it as you can muster.


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## nabs (9 Sep 2017)

yes that is a good description of what they do - and what I was not doing (not enough 'rounding under'). It is easy/fast once you get the hang of it.


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2017)

nabs":1i32u13a said:


> yes that is a good description of what they do - and what I was not doing (not enough 'rounding under'). It is easy/fast once you get the hang of it.


If a burr doesn't come up quickly you move on to a coarser stone until a burr appears _across the whole width especially the middle where it will appear last_. People tend to give up too soon and end up working with an only partially sharpened edge.


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## sundaytrucker (11 Sep 2017)

nabs":5w0hfxu9 said:


> I learned a lot of new things from the Maquire sharpening videos and this made me go and look again at what Paul Sellers demonstrates. Having done that I concluded that they are doing essentially thing, namely combining the grinding and honing steps at each sharpen resulting in a gently rounded bevel.
> 
> The only subtle difference is that Maquire does nearly all the grinding and honing work at a lowish angle and then does a final few strokes on his fine stone at a steeper angle to hone the cutting edge, whereas Sellers does it all in one motion.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. I am considering giving up my Veritas planes with their thick irons moving over to older planes and adopting Maguire's method as it seems faff free which is one of my reasons why I enjoy his content so much.


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## Halo Jones (11 Sep 2017)

Does anybody know what Richard is up to? I haven't seen him update his website or any of his other social media channels for ages. 

I have been tempted by his videos for ages and these reviews might finally make me hit the spend button!


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## nabs (11 Sep 2017)

this came up on another thread - apparently they are busy with building works and will be back shortly:
richard-maguire-t107443.html


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## DrDerrick (30 Sep 2017)

Keep it simple - the key to a good workbench are that it's solid, simple, and flat, with a good vice.


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## DBT85 (22 Nov 2017)

A great read, thanks for sharing!

I'm hopefully not far from starting my own build based on Sellers new workbench series, just got to finish clearing my new workspace indoors!


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## Paul200 (22 Nov 2017)

Just finished reading through this post Nick - a stonking good read and a very nice outcome. About to build my first 'real' workbench having had fun doing loads of research and trying to remember how I like to work - having not been able to make anything of any note for over 3 years. (Retired and moved to a semi-wreck in Scotland so building work has taken all my time).

Your post has been inspirational - I've picked up all sorts of tips and ideas from others' comments and been able to refine and finalise my fledgling plans as a result. Ordered the timber today - excited!

Paul


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