# Plane (and sharpening) training?



## sploo (7 Oct 2015)

A long time ago I was given a Stanley No 4 hand plane, and also own a small number of (similarly budget) chisels. It's pretty rare that I use them, but on occasion they come in useful.

I think part of the problem is a lack of understanding of good planing technique, and especially the fact my attempts at sharpening are always disappointing.

Are there any training courses in the Oxfordshire/Berkshire area for this sort of thing? I suspect that a weekend course would be sufficient for the (very) basics, and may even introduce me to other types of plane.


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## AndyT (7 Oct 2015)

Sploo, there's a sticky here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post638372.html#p638372 at the top of the General Woodworking section which lists UK training courses.
You will need to travel a bit, but some of them do run short courses covering the basics that you want.

For instance, Chris Tribe in Ilkley http://www.christribefurniturecourses.com/index.php/tool-sharpening-and-fettling-weekend/.


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## sploo (7 Oct 2015)

Thanks. That looks ideal; as well as Peter Sefton's course. The problem is that with a young family it would be difficult for me to be away from home for a couple of days, so a local course would be much preferred.


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## Bigbud78 (7 Oct 2015)

sploo":116212qv said:


> Thanks. That looks ideal; as well as Peter Sefton's course. The problem is that with a young family it would be difficult for me to be away from home for a couple of days, so a local course would be much preferred.



Watch some of Paul sellers video's, I then also got a sharpening jig as I just could't get the hang of it free hand but now my planes and chisels are sharp


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## matthewwh (7 Oct 2015)

Hi Sploo,

If Banbury isn't too far away, you are welcome to pop in for a coffee and I can run you through the basics.


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## Random Orbital Bob (7 Oct 2015)

Ditto Sploo. I'm in a village near Reading and you're also welcome to spend a weekend morning round here. We can easily cover the basics in that time. The charge would be 1 x packet hob nobs (chocolate of course)


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## graduate_owner (7 Oct 2015)

On the subject of chisel sharpening, I use various grades of diamond stones in conjunction with an Axminster honing guide and I seem to get an acceptably sharp edge (well they seem sharp to me) but I never seem to get an edge that will shave hairs off my arm. Is this really achievable, and if so, is it worth achieving such a keen edge since the edge will presumably be dulled rapidly anyway once the chisel is put to work?

K


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## Zeddedhed (7 Oct 2015)

Sploo, as someone who regularly conducts business using Hob Nobs as the preferred currency, Randoms offer is one you shouldn't turn down.
Personally I'd also take Matthew up on his offer too - he doesn't even ask for something as lowly as Rich Tea let alone Hob Nobs!! You can't go wrong.


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## lanemaux (7 Oct 2015)

Hi Graduate. I cannot speak to how much needed such an edge as "shaving sharp" might be , but it is definately achievable . I use a combination of media to get to a bare forearm scenario. The very finest of media is key to getting that polished razor edge and I'm unsure as to whether diamond stones will get you that far. You might get some ultra-fine wet / dry from an auto body shop as a final grit level and try once more. Works for me , as my wife can tell when I've been sharpening by looking at my forearms. That's because the beard stays, no matter what the MIL thinks of it.


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## Paul Chapman (7 Oct 2015)

graduate_owner":sb13vtlt said:


> On the subject of chisel sharpening, I use various grades of diamond stones in conjunction with an Axminster honing guide and I seem to get an acceptably sharp edge (well they seem sharp to me) but I never seem to get an edge that will shave hairs off my arm. Is this really achievable, and if so, is it worth achieving such a keen edge since the edge will presumably be dulled rapidly anyway once the chisel is put to work?
> 
> K



Yes, it is worth achieving a super-sharp edge. The easiest way for you to do this is to use some DMT diamond paste on a block of wood after honing on your diamond stones.

I currently use the DMT extra fine stone (green), then a block of wood with 6 micron paste followed by another block of wood with 1 micron paste. Use the blocks of wood just like you would a sharpening stone.

I use 3-in-1 oil on my stones and mix a little oil with the honing paste (you need only a small bit of paste so it lasts for ages).

You'll be amazed at the difference a really sharp blade makes.

The DMT paste is available from Classic Hand Tools https://www.classichandtools.com/acatal ... mpund.html

Hope this helps.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## G S Haydon (7 Oct 2015)

It's unlikely you'd find yourself in Devon but if you send me a PM. We'd have you making shaving in no time


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## sploo (7 Oct 2015)

matthewwh":1s50cc3c said:


> Hi Sploo,
> 
> If Banbury isn't too far away, you are welcome to pop in for a coffee and I can run you through the basics.





Random Orbital Bob":1s50cc3c said:


> Ditto Sploo. I'm in a village near Reading and you're also welcome to spend a weekend morning round here. We can easily cover the basics in that time. The charge would be 1 x packet hob nobs (chocolate of course)


Matthew/Bob - huge thanks, and greatly appreciated. Banbury's about an hour away, Reading less, so both are nicely feasible.

Somewhat unusually, I find myself free on the weekend of the 24th/25th Oct and also the 31st Oct/1st Nov. Would any of those days work for either of you?




Zeddedhed":1s50cc3c said:


> Sploo, as someone who regularly conducts business using Hob Nobs as the preferred currency, Randoms offer is one you shouldn't turn down.
> Personally I'd also take Matthew up on his offer too - he doesn't even ask for something as lowly as Rich Tea let alone Hob Nobs!! You can't go wrong.


Yea, I'd like to meet Bob. His BS400 review thread is excellent. I've got one of the early BS300 units, and with some fettling it's been a decent saw.

There is a problem though; despite not being a hand tool guy, I've just taken a look at Matthew's website - it's basically a crack cocaine dealership for woodworkers. It may hurt my wallet :wink: 



G S Haydon":1s50cc3c said:


> It's unlikely you'd find yourself in Devon but if you send me a PM. We'd have you making shaving in no time


Thanks also. I don't get down that way too often, but it is an area we do visit (Paignton Zoo is a favourite).


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## sploo (7 Oct 2015)

graduate_owner":1iku6zrv said:



> On the subject of chisel sharpening, I use various grades of diamond stones in conjunction with an Axminster honing guide and I seem to get an acceptably sharp edge (well they seem sharp to me) but I never seem to get an edge that will shave hairs off my arm. Is this really achievable, and if so, is it worth achieving such a keen edge since the edge will presumably be dulled rapidly anyway once the chisel is put to work?
> 
> K


Yes - this is exactly my issue with chisels. I've also got an Axminster honing guide (this one, IRC: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-de ... ning-guide) and I use (from memory, I'm not in the garage right now) an India oil stone like this: http://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-317227/indi ... wwodARsF7w (I was given both the plane and the stone, hence the vagueness)

I can grind and smooth a chisel so that it appears sharp, and it does an ok job of cutting, but nowhere near being able to cut into the edge of a piece of paper (or hair).

In terms of the hand plane, I've never really felt I understood it enough to fettle or set it up properly. It's hardly ever been used, but I'm currently making something from some reclaimed varnished pine, and it occurred to me that I could plane off the varnish before I put it through the thickness planer, as it'd likely be easier to sharpen the old (and probably blunt) blade than replace the thicknesser's knives. The job's gone much better than I expected, and I actually really enjoyed using it, but I'm aware I've got limitations/questions that probably could be answered by someone with experience - hence starting this thread.


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## rafezetter (8 Oct 2015)

sploo":136ujz9q said:


> Yes - this is exactly my issue with chisels. I've also got an Axminster honing guide (this one, IRC: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-de ... ning-guide) and I use (from memory, I'm not in the garage right now) an India oil stone like this: http://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-317227/indi ... wwodARsF7w (I was given both the plane and the stone, hence the vagueness)
> 
> I can grind and smooth a chisel so that it appears sharp, and it does an ok job of cutting, but nowhere near being able to cut into the edge of a piece of paper (or hair).
> 
> In terms of the hand plane, I've never really felt I understood it enough to fettle or set it up properly. It's hardly ever been used, but I'm currently making something from some reclaimed varnished pine, and it occurred to me that I could plane off the varnish before I put it through the thickness planer, as it'd likely be easier to sharpen the old (and probably blunt) blade than replace the thicknesser's knives. The job's gone much better than I expected, and I actually really enjoyed using it, but I'm aware I've got limitations/questions that probably could be answered by someone with experience - hence starting this thread.



That india stone is designed for site work, sharpening a chisel just enough for basic timber needs. Hair shaving sharp for finer work can only be acheived if you go up to a minimum of 5,000 grit, and even then only if the cutting face and the back, or a micro back bevel of the plane blade or chisel have been worked on and are absolutely flat to meet each other at a razor edge. I've been honing my chisels for a while now using scary sharp method and while going up to 3,000 paper gives me an edge super sharp by normal chisel users standards and certainly sharp enough for most woods you'll come across; 3,000 just isn't hair slicing sharp. As a coincedence tonite I've just been doing a few more of my old wood handles chisels I bought from here that all need attention and have only taken them to 3,000 using a jig the same as yours (although an original Narex) and while super sharp, it won't cut the hairs on my arm.

I also agree super sharp (3k+) is worth having for ease and safety reasons - sharper = easier to remove unwanted wood = less pressure applied and thus less chance of slippage and hurting yourself. 1200 grit is plenty sharp enough to open a finger or palm with no problem, but slicing wafers off endgrain oak (for dovetails) it won't.


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## Zeddedhed (8 Oct 2015)

Not that shaving my arm is the aim of my sharpening, but I normally only bother with going to 1000 g and I can shave my arms no problem.

Either you have extremely tough arm hair or mine is super soft. Or something else.......


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## Jacob (8 Oct 2015)

sploo":1cm0dbab said:


> graduate_owner":1cm0dbab said:
> 
> 
> > On the subject of chisel sharpening, I use various grades of diamond stones in conjunction with an Axminster honing guide and I seem to get an acceptably sharp edge (well they seem sharp to me) but I never seem to get an edge that will shave hairs off my arm. Is this really achievable, and if so, is it worth achieving such a keen edge since the edge will presumably be dulled rapidly anyway once the chisel is put to work?
> ...


That india stone will do all you need for some time to come. Best to just master the one technique rather than fiddling about with lot of different kit and stuff. You will know when you need something better but this may be some years away, if ever. 
I'd dump the honing guide - they make sharpening more difficult and are the main reason for the diversity of techniques on offer - all trying to make the best of a dud idea.

Keep it simple - freehand on an oil stone,.


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## JonnyW (8 Oct 2015)

Hi Sploo. Like most mortal woodworkers, I've been looking for that 'perfect' edge for a while now too, and have slowly - after many, many, many trials - settled on a sharpening solution that suits me (and I'm sure it's still wrong or could be vastly improved upon). But as you'll already know, the internet, this forum and other forums, are absolutely jamb packed full of methods and opinions (all really really good). And so they should be, as like I said, everyone has their preferred method of sharpening. This is such a hot topic, that you are sometimes scared to give an opinion on it.

If you're looking for a really interesting read on the subject of sharpening, read Ron Hock's The Perfect Edge. A really good read. It also discusses steel, what it is etc etc, and the subject that obsesses me - rust!

For what it's worth, and if you're not done this already, build yourself a dedicated sharpening station (as the Yanks call it). For me, it was a hefty table set to the right honing height (for me), with an added platform a bit higher in height for my grinder (a Record WG250 - brilliant by the way). I unscrew the grinder from the platform and put it inside the unit under the table when I'm not using it. I also have a couple of drawers for all the accoutrements that go along with sharpening. I put 10mm float glass on part of the table top, for maintaining and renovating planes (can easily accommodate a no. 8 sliding back and fore). 

OK, I concede, it's fine if you have the room in your garage/workshop. However, it was the best thing I ever did to encrouage me to keep my tool edges keen. Having to take all the bits and pieces out of a cupboard and set them up on your bench (not to mention trying to control the mess), I found was such a palaver, I would end up using a chisel that really needed a good going over because I couldn't be bothered.

Sorry if I'm teaching you how to suck eggs here.

I'm sure you'll enjoy your one-on-one. I wish I could come along and soak up some of their wisdom.

Regards

Jonny


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## bugbear (8 Oct 2015)

Paul Chapman":105yb0oo said:


> ...then a block of wood with 6 micron paste followed by another block of wood with 1 micron paste. Use the blocks of wood just like you would a sharpening stone.



Do you sharpen on the push stroke, pull stroke, or both? I'd be worried about the blade digging in on the push stroke.

After all, sharp chisels can cut wood :wink:

Using a pull stroke, a honing guide, or both might reduce the issue.

BugBear


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## Random Orbital Bob (8 Oct 2015)

sploo":1mz61hc6 said:


> matthewwh":1mz61hc6 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Sploo,
> ...



Drop me a pm with your batphone number and we can sort something out. Cheers.


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## Paul Chapman (8 Oct 2015)

bugbear":15r7ljdb said:


> Paul Chapman":15r7ljdb said:
> 
> 
> > ...then a block of wood with 6 micron paste followed by another block of wood with 1 micron paste. Use the blocks of wood just like you would a sharpening stone.
> ...



Hi BB,

With narrow chisels, it's best to use just the pull stroke to avoid digging in but with wide chisels and plane blades I find it OK to push and pull. I use a honing guide - just bought the new Lie Nielsen, which really is the dogs whatsits 8) 

I picked up the tip about using diamond paste on wood from Garrett Hack a few years ago and his blades are really sharp. Here's a demo of how he does it http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/v ... hisel.aspx

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (8 Oct 2015)

Paul Chapman":1ruea85u said:


> With narrow chisels, it's best to use just the pull stroke to avoid digging in but with wide chisels and plane blades I find it OK to push and pull. I use a honing guide - just bought the new Lie Nielsen, which really is the dogs whatsits 8)



That sounds pretty much what I'd guessed; conversely and certainly soft sharpening media, push strokes and freehand make a poor combination.

I suspect if you ground the secondary to zero, you might still get a dig in though, but there's never a need to grind away the whole secondary.

BugBear


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## sploo (8 Oct 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":14n79bpo said:


> Drop me a pm with your batphone number and we can sort something out. Cheers.


PM sent!



JonnyW":14n79bpo said:


> Hi Sploo. Like most mortal woodworkers, I've been looking for that 'perfect' edge for a while now too...


I think part of the problem is that I don't use the hand plane or chisels very often, so it's difficult to justify the space or investment in much sharpening gear; though obviously a blunt tool is a useless tool, so if you're keeping them you do need to do some sharpening.

The scary sharpening system is new to me, and interesting - especially as a set of Japanese waterstones wouldn't really make sense given the little use they'd get.

Having see a (Robert Sorby?) chisel grinding system that's basically a sander, it occurs to me that my 12" disc sander could possibly be used for the rare grinding application. The India stone I have is indeed not really that fine so it had occurred to me it's not ideal for finishing.

I think a lot of the issue is knowing what bevel (and how much) to put on a blade, and then how much (and what) secondary, and just good technique for doing the sharpening. I do find the honing guide cumbersome, but then how do you accurately put on the secondary bevel? Or is it not always required?


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## Jacob (8 Oct 2015)

sploo":n8vf7dms said:


> .....The India stone I have is indeed not really that fine so it had occurred to me it's not ideal for finishing.


It's probably perfectly OK. It's all anybody used to use, more or less, until all this modern techno sharpening got fashionable


> I think a lot of the issue is knowing what bevel (and how much) to put on a blade, and then how much (and what) secondary, and just good technique for doing the sharpening. I do find the honing guide cumbersome, but then how do you accurately put on the secondary bevel? Or is it not always required?


30º edge for just about everything. 
This can be flat (no secondary bevel), or rounded off to a lower angle, or double bevelled with a 2nd bevel. NB 2ary bevel does not need to be accurate, it only needs to be _less_ than the edge bevel, so an edge at 30º would be fine with a 2ary bevel anything from 29º to say 20º


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## Random Orbital Bob (8 Oct 2015)

I've pm'd you back Sploo.

I agree with Jacob also about the tolerances. So much gets talked about in regard to very specific angles. My experience of talking and working with professional carpenters and wood turners is that none of them give a monkeys within about 5 degrees of tolerance. 25 to 30 degrees is the general standard for almost anything and you might need to get a bit more retentive if you're planing very tricky woods like rippled sycamore or other brittle or prone to tearout boards but for right now, 25-30 is easily good enough. What's important is the edge is sharp enough and that you keep it sharp.


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## bugbear (8 Oct 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":2md78xo4 said:


> So much gets talked about in regard to very specific angles. My experience of talking and working with professional carpenters and wood turners is that none of them give a monkeys within about 5 degrees of tolerance.


The _actual_ angle doesn't matter much, but if you can sharpen at exactly the _same_ angle every time (which almost certainly implies some "mechanical help" :wink: ) it minimises the amount of metal removal to be done.

BugBear


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## Jacob (8 Oct 2015)

bugbear":3idy62au said:


> ... if you can sharpen at exactly the _same_ angle every time (which almost certainly implies some "mechanical help" .....


No mechanical help needed. If you are too shallow you don't get a burr. If you are about right and still not getting a burr you need to back off the bevel a bit at a shallower angle and try again. It really is not a problem, but a jig turns it into one - mainly because the existing edge has to match exactly the stone . If not you will have to remove more metal to get a good fit, or flatten the stone, then do it again every time you sharpen etc. etc. and you are on the slippery slope to sharpening madness :roll:


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## Random Orbital Bob (8 Oct 2015)

The Jacob school of sharpening will be opening a branch in the back of every Starbucks from next month......don't be blunt.......stay sharp


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## bugbear (8 Oct 2015)

Jacob":8xa6pdqe said:


> bugbear":8xa6pdqe said:
> 
> 
> > ... if you can sharpen at exactly the _same_ angle every time (which almost certainly implies some "mechanical help" .....
> ...



The sharpening process with a jig which you point out the difficulties of is purely a creation of your own fevered imagination. (*)

_Actual_ sharpening with a jig is simple, quick, effective, reliable and gives excellent edges every time which is why so many people do it.

BugBear

(*)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


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## Jacob (8 Oct 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":2b3qopiw said:


> The Jacob school of sharpening will be opening a branch in the back of every Starbucks from next month......don't be blunt.......stay sharp


I claim no credit! 
It's how everybody sharpened, world wide, since the beginning of time. 
It's only recently that new woodworkers have been persuaded, a. that it's difficult, and b. they need to buy a lot of kit. Neither of these things is true.


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## D_W (8 Oct 2015)

Jacob":799fzaxz said:


> It's only recently that new woodworkers have been persuaded, a. that it's difficult, and b. they need to buy a lot of kit.



c. And that it takes 3-10 minutes to sharpen a chisel.


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Oct 2015)

Jacob":1c1r411z said:


> Random Orbital Bob":1c1r411z said:
> 
> 
> > The Jacob school of sharpening will be opening a branch in the back of every Starbucks from next month......don't be blunt.......stay sharp
> ...



Are you saying that you knap your own flints for woodworking tools, or that being a Derbyshire lad you rub your tool on a handy piece of (fairly) local Millstone Grit to get it sharp?

'Since the beginning of time' is a fair old while ago. It may be that for some people, technology has moved on a bit. Hell, some of us have even gone so modern as to adopt man-made oilstones....


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## lurker (8 Oct 2015)

Ooo goody!
Sploo's innocent request for help has turned into another sharpening slanging match.


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## sploo (8 Oct 2015)

lurker":y0j6timg said:


> Ooo goody!
> Sploo's innocent request for help has turned into another sharpening slanging match.


If there's one thing you can be sure of on the Internet: people will sling monkey poop at one another at the slightest opportunity :wink:


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## n0legs (8 Oct 2015)

sploo":35arld80 said:


> people will sling monkey poop at one another at the slightest opportunity :wink:



I miss the days of throwing punches.


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## D_W (8 Oct 2015)

n0legs":2ikzisam said:


> sploo":2ikzisam said:
> 
> 
> > people will sling monkey poop at one another at the slightest opportunity :wink:
> ...



In my youth, it was morning stars. Er wait, that's what my dad told me. 

I think it was the mace by the time I was old enough to walk.


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## bugbear (9 Oct 2015)

D_W":3d77nudz said:


> Jacob":3d77nudz said:
> 
> 
> > It's only recently that new woodworkers have been persuaded, a. that it's difficult, and b. they need to buy a lot of kit.
> ...



I'd be intrigued and surprised to see a _sharpening_ process that took 10 minutes. Fettling or renovation, yes, but not routine sharpening.

In the words of Wikipedia - citation needed.

BugBear


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## Random Orbital Bob (9 Oct 2015)

Chaps...lets not start please!!


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Oct 2015)

There are quite a few different ways to get a woodworking edge tool sharp enough for the work it's intended to do. There are electric grinders with wheels and/or abrasive belts, hand-crank grinders and wet-stone slow-speed grinders. Some people use flat coarse abrasives, and rub by hand. For honing, there are oilstones, waterstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones and abrasive papers and lapping films ('scary sharp'). There are leather strops and wooden strops which can be dressed with fine abrasives or used undressed. Sharpening can be done freehand or using jigs. All those methods work, or they wouldn't be used. All those methods have advantages and disadvantages, and different people find the methods that suit them best; the advantages that suit them, and the disadvantages they can live with. There's no single perfect method that suits everyboby all the time, or we'd all be using it.

One of the problems for the newcomer is that of finding the method that suits their particular set of circumstances; confusion about all the conflicting advice is entirely understandable. Another is a perfectly understandable lack of confidence in what they're currently doing. It does take a bit of time and effort to overcome those problems, but rest assured that there is a way for anybody to keep their tools in good working order without too much fuss. There's a bit of a learning curve, but then there is with almost all things.

Most old hands have their set ways of sharpening that suits them. The vast majority are wise enough to accept that what suits them might not suit the next person, and offer their thoughts and advice with that in mind. Sadly, there are one or two of a mindset that their way is 'right', and that any other way is therefore 'wrong', and involves 'stuff you don't need'. However much the more broad-minded have pointed out that there are more ways than one to sharpen a woodworking tool, they still persist in banging on about their way being the only one worth consideration. That doesn't help the confused newcomer at all - it just makes a confusing subject even more confusing. For the regular reader, it becomes tiresome; eventually, it just becomes ripe for lampooning.

Sploo - you are doing the right thing by having a chat with Matthew and Bob. You will also do the right thing if you comletely disregard all the daft arguments about sharpening that keep cropping up. Once you've found what works for you (and you will!) then just ignore all the noise - and especially ignore anything that tells you you're doing it all wrong!


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":jwuvjw9j said:


> .
> Most old hands have their set ways of sharpening that suits them. ...


My point is - most old hands had roughly *the same* basic way of sharpening, namely freehand on a natural or synthetic oil stone or two, with occasional (not essential) help from a grindstone. Many still do this and it is still the simplest, cheapest etc. etc.
Nothing to stop anyone going down the modern techno sharpening way if that's really what they want, but they should be under no illusions; it is by no means essential and has a considerable number of drawbacks, not least the expense.


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":12cmcfpg said:


> Cheshirechappie":12cmcfpg said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



You're using the term 'old hand' to mean someone working wood two or three generations ago or earlier, when the choices of sharpening medium were fewer than today - so of course they used oilstones, because that's all there was.

I was using the tem 'old hand' to mean someone currently working wood, in an amateur or professional capacity, for a couple of years or more. There are now more methods of sharpening available than there were several generations ago, and many current woodworkers have taken advantage of those technical developments.

I do not accept your argument that because woodworkers two or three generations ago used one method, it's the best for all of today's woodworkers. The world has moved on, there is now more choice, and today's woodworkers are perfectly entitled to exercise their right to choose.


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## CStanford (9 Oct 2015)

They're pretty much all AlOx in some binder or another, if not a natural stone. These of course by definition are essentially unchangeable, the skill is in the mining and relatively small amount of processing.


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## D_W (9 Oct 2015)

bugbear":29jaeml7 said:


> D_W":29jaeml7 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":29jaeml7 said:
> ...



I don't know that anyone who mentions 10 minutes has put their method in video. One that is often linked is videos of k. tanaka (I think because people think it looks pretty). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QrnH53tTDs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV9djHx17EQ

He's got several videos showing sharpening processes for a resharpening of a japanese plane iron that are in the range of 5-8 minutes. 

And, for what it's worth, I've been poked with barbs for suggesting that from the time to take a plane apart to having it cutting wood again, it should be about two minutes - and the folks who have barbed me have mentioned 5-10 minutes, and suggested that sharpening in two minutes is just a party trick. 

I have videoed it, though. I second what jacob says. If you do it long enough, we all pretty much end up in the same place (especially if using more than just flat blades, where you're forced to either put the jigs down or go nuclear in the level of fixtures needed to try to remove human subtle skill from sharpening things). 

I see nakaoka's videos, and hold them up as a reason that I don't sharpen japanese planes traditionally, but I've noticed that when I've said that, most of the peanut gallery sides with the 8 minute sharpening routine.


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":4cgqzw8i said:


> .....
> I do not accept your argument that because woodworkers two or three generations ago used one method, it's the best for all of today's woodworkers. The world has moved on, there is now more choice, and today's woodworkers are perfectly entitled to exercise their right to choose.


It's one generation. Jigs were not widely used only 50 years ago - I was there! Most of the other techie stuff is much later. Yes they have the right to choose - and I have the right to suggest options they might like.


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## CStanford (9 Oct 2015)

If one rubs tool steel on some product harder than the steel, and does so with a relatively small amount of skill, a serviceable edge will be the result. 

Anybody completely flummoxed by hand sharpening, even if they ultimately decide to use a jig for whatever reason, has likely found the wrong hobby. You'll need similar dexterity and attention to detail for plenty of other things. If you can't muster it at the sharpening bench, it's probably a lost cause.

And besides, everything you'll need to sharpen cannot always be jigged without ridiculous contortions or investment.


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## bugbear (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":bgndeuqa said:


> Jigs were not widely used only 50 years ago - I was there!



I thought you learnt at college, in the 80's, to the plangent strains of Duran Duran...

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3gd1z4sp said:


> Cheshirechappie":3gd1z4sp said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Hmmm - 50 years sounds nearer two generations, but whatever....

The problem is that,when it comes to sharpening, you tend not to 'suggest'. The way in which you phrase your posts often comes across as something closer to 'dictate'. You have something of a tendency to sound sneery at other people's choices because they aren't sharpening the way you do - calling them "new sharpeners" and so on. It comes across as derogatory, unhelpful and offensive to some, which isn't really the general tone most people want on the forum - and it's a tone that invites lampooning..... 

And Charles - I wasn't only thinking of jig/freehand - though that is also a matter for individual choice.

Edit to add - Sharpening is quite an important part of woodworking, and it deserves to be discussed - especially as a help to newcomers. It's hard to have sensible, informed debate about the advantages and disadvantages of the various different ways of going about it when conversations are derailed by the same very few people making derogatory comments about others' opinions and experiences. Sadly, I don't think this is the only forum suffering the malaise, and equally sadly, I don't realistically see it changing any time soon - but it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":1ocg5znl said:


> ......... it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.


It's difficult because the "normal" way of sharpening (yes it was normal) has been more or less expunged from the record. The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!
It's happened in other areas too - the "normal" bench which everybody used (and many still use) in Britain and the colonies, home, industry and schools, i.e. two beams and a well (or one beam, well and a rail) is completely overlooked - so much so that it doesn't even get a mention in several of the modern so-called work-bench books.
Or DT angles - 1/6 or 1/8 has become gospel even though in the real world nobody stuck to these rules
It's as though an unelected committee has been at work making decisions about this that and the other and is trying to coerce the rest of us into obedience.


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## iNewbie (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":37lhxz34 said:


> Cheshirechappie":37lhxz34 said:
> 
> 
> > ......... it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.
> ...



Which is exactly what you yourself do. No different. (While typing how much time is wasted using a Jig you've wasted more time on rinse & repeat on said subject...) 

You need an _The End is Nigh board_, Jacob.


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

PS the bench is coming back though; Graham has an article here promoting a similar "normal" bench (and photographing the same page) which I have been going on about for years!
Paul Sellers has been doing his version too.

Nprmality returns! I think there is in general a move against the slicked up magazine and tool dealer version of woodworking which passes for normal, in favour of more traditional real world joinery.


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## Kalimna (9 Oct 2015)

I don't buy the 'because everyone did it 50 yea s ago, so it must be the best and only sensible way' argument. There are very good reasons why methods are prominent, and it tends to be because of options available. Maybe there weren't jigs around 50 years ago. But then, maybe most woodworkers were initially apprenticed, and not hobbyists. I have no doubt that freehand sharpening is, indeed, quicker than using a jig. But as a hobbyist with limited free time, and no mentor looking over my shoulder correcting mistakes, I have found such things as jigs and out-of-the-box-ready tools invaluable. This way I can get on with the business of mangling wood safe in the knowledge that my skill, not my tools, is the limiting factor.
Jigs offer repeatability and consistency, especially for the beginner (or old hand) or part-time hobbyist. It is not a question of being flummoxed, and in need of a new hobby (itself a phrase loaded with sneer and not becoming the polite forum this tends to be), rather seeking the most efficient route to the end product. This route being different for different people, with differing experience and free time.

Adam S


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## Andy Kev. (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":6texcg9h said:


> Cheshirechappie":6texcg9h said:
> 
> 
> > ......... it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.
> ...


For what it's worth, I've come to the conclusion that you're both right and wrong, although probably a bit more right than wrong and that is for the following reasons.

To the beginner sharpening can be a daunting thing. It certainly was for me. I tried free hand and mangled chisels, the secondary bevel ending up anything but square to the longitudinal axis of the blade. What a godsend the Veritas guide was! It instantly conferred on me the ability to sharpen anything 100% bang on and repeatedly so. This relieved me of something that was starting to become dispiriting and so I could concentrate on more important things i.e. those tasks directly involved with sorting out wood e.g. planing and sawing.

However, partly influenced by your remarks, I persisted with the occasional go at hand sharpening, using a couple of cheap and nasty chisels from the local DIY market. I'm now content to hand sharpen anything 3/8" or wider by hand although I occasionally revert to the guide if I want to grind back to the primary bevel. For some reason spoke shave blades were dead easy by hand from the word go. I still do low angle plane blades with the guide.

The reason for all this is simple: had I known somebody who could take me through this in the way that say an apprentice or trainee is taught, I can imagine never having bothered with a honing guide but when you are learning everything alone with your sources of guidance being books, DVDs and the internet, a bit of mechanical help is a very beneficial thing. I will continue to use my guide where experience, common sense and ability tell me I need to while being happy to increasingly sharpen freehand and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a guide to anybody who is in the position I was in two years ago (that new Lie-Neilsen one looks like the mutt's nuts by the way).

So while I think you are right to continue your crusade in the name of a genuine craftsman's skill and while in general terms I accept your scepticism about marketing things which people can get by without, I suggest to you that there are circumstances where a honing guide is a valuable if not vital tool. I wonder if you can accept that point?


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

Andy Kev.":20o6jd65 said:


> ....I suggest to you that there are circumstances where a honing guide is a valuable if not vital tool. I wonder if you can accept that point?


yes steel rebate or shoulder planes seem to need to be spot on, but you can still get it wrong with a jig - perfect edge but 3º out of square etc. So it's still viable freehand, checking often with a square.

NB we learned to sharpen at school. It was just taken for granted like sharpening a pencil, with about the same level if difficulty.


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## D_W (9 Oct 2015)

I'll summarize what I've seen as this:
* beginners tend not to do freehand - that's understandable
* people who teach beginners often teach something much different than what a long-time amateur or a professional would do
* a group of sharpeners that is professional and that uses hand tools significantly enough to have to sharpen several times a day, *especially* if they are carving, will tend to do most or all things freehand

I can identify with what Jacob says (Charley probably says it, too). I was a beginner and a mark for jigs and fast cutting stones. Ultimately, I found it faster to go without both. I think most people will, too. 

The instructors who tend too get sunk in deep against the feel sharpener (the person who can pick up anything and put it to a stone freehand) seems to me is usually out of the context of getting much work done and needs to defend what they're teaching their students (and it's perfectly fine for students to get specific measurements and use a guide). 

If someone has been woodworking for 10 years and has aspirations to make anything decent, I agree 100% with charley that they have bigger problems than just sharpening if the have failed repeatedly at developing the touch to sharpen freehand. Sorry to break kayfabe and agree with you Charley!

The idea that there's much on the market that is a legitimate improvement in the context of woodworking is pretty silly. There is an improvement in some cases for beginners (planes that you can drop, planes where you can shut the mouth and not learn to use a cap iron, irons that wear slowly so the slow-sharpening beginner can go for a while). 

I'd mention chisels, but I'd bet a woodworker with 10 years of hand building experience can get the edge on a stanley chisel to last longer than the average newbie can get some powder metal chisel to last.


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## D_W (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":18882sp7 said:


> Andy Kev.":18882sp7 said:
> 
> 
> > ....I suggest to you that there are circumstances where a honing guide is a valuable if not vital tool. I wonder if you can accept that point?
> ...



Rebate and skew planes are the greatest case for freehand honing and not ever allowing the edge to be completely removed from one sharpening to the next. The blade as it's working in the plane tells us everything we need to know about what to do when honing the next time.

Someone using a guide is more likely to have trouble applying touch to keep the iron right on where it should be.


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

D_W":1gik95vh said:


> ..
> * beginners tend not to do freehand - that's understandable......


Only because (in recent years) they are discouraged and told that it's difficult. In fact it is the easiest way. As I said - it's been expunged from the record!


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## CStanford (9 Oct 2015)

1) There is a minutely and barely rebuttable presumption that the way "it" was done when most woodworking, or at least a whole lot of it, was still done by hand is at its essence the correct way to do it.

2) There are few reasons for an amateur not to do it as the pros suggest. What was being imparted in virtually all of the classic manuals on woodworking (the majority of which are British) is how the work was actually accomplished in a professional setting, though clearly in the introduction to these books the amateur was mentioned as the target audience. There are not 'two separate sets of rules.' Logically, why would there be? There are a few exceptions -- on the whole, not enough to worry about. The early-on use of a simple (with the emphasis on simple) jig for sharpening is perhaps one. Why? Again, because there is a whole raft of cutters than cannot be readily or easily jigged even today, much less 'back then.' The cord has to be cut at some point or flounder in your own shop with a very limited set of tools that can be kept sharp on your own.

People with an outsized penchant for tools don't need to worry about any of it. It doesn't apply.

People hell-bent on reinventing the wheel or thinking that a relatively minor innovation here or there has somehow changed the game are missing the mark in my opinion.


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## Random Orbital Bob (9 Oct 2015)

There y' go Sploo....so that's all clear then right


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## G S Haydon (9 Oct 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":2h7btju7 said:


> There y' go Sploo....so that's all clear then right


 :lol: :lol: 

Hope you have fun Sploo, a bit of one on one time will be great. Thanks for the link Jacob . I think broadly it is likely that if someone sticks at this for a while they'll go to freehand. It's not a must, it may not ever be required but straight plane irons and chisels don't take too much effort to get the hang of. 

If someone were wanting to get started a cheap eclipse guide clone for a few £/$ would be a great place to start. When starting out it will cover bench chisels and plane irons well. By the time the experience has lead someone to different projects It's likely people will migrate to freehand. 

But to each there own.


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## Bm101 (9 Oct 2015)

*Dips toe in the water.
I've been 'working with tools' my whole life. I've been a hard landscaper, drystone waller, I've worked on building sites as a labourer, I worked with lots of small building firms as a young fella where I've done everything from being on the mixer to progressing onto watching and learning whichever proper trade came in. I learnt enough in a couple of hours helping out the tiler or the chippy hanging doors that I'd be doing it the next day with the subby. Not as fast but fast enough.... 

As your man Confucius said, 'I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.' I've lived my life as far as possible with an enquiring and open mind.

For the last 15 years odd I've been hanging off big buildings as an abseiler. No relevance except that Iv'e been in a game long enough that has seen drastic changes. When I started we were few and far between. You rarely saw another rope access team. I've worked on the pyramid of 1 Canada Square (Canary Wharf), Lloyds of London doing 4 hour drops to clean the liftshafts, City Hall, the new one. You name it and I've probably done it (in London). (No not, the Shard and I don't fancy it either before you ask.) 
The point I'm making is that years back it was all fresh. Now, suddenly I'm the old fella. Ive done my Level 3, the highest qualification (you have to retest every 3 years), 3 times. I see kids coming into it that don't have a clue. I school them along the lines of, 'youve been doing this just long enought to kill yourself with complete confidence'. I remember every bloke I worked with who shared his knowledge with no jealousy and I try to do the same with these kids who I'd like to see go home safe at the end of the day.

So what am I rambling about?
When I started getting more interested in working with wood (seriously) I started going down the route of youtube videos, I bought a few tools some used and some not. I did my research. Tbh I already had a shed full of tools. My interest is primarily in getting good enough to work on the stuff for my house I'm doing up. An oak porch, a new bench to build. A roubo style bench appeals to me. Like it or not. To me it's not a bloody fashion statement it's just summat I'd like to build and own and use. I made one bad decision and bought a veritas iron for my cheap 5 1/2 record. Lesson learnt. 

I don't understand the mindset that states there is only one way to do anything.

I bought a veritas jig and I bought various wet n dry grades and a 2 waterstones. Ive honed the new tools and sharpened the old. If I had the confidence to do it by hand I would have done. But I didn't. Now I have sharp tools . Whats the issue?

Apologies to the OP who just wanted a sharpening answer.
What I don't understand though is this. Some will go out their way to help. Some seem desperate to alienate those with less experience. In the end ain't we all trying to fight the good fight? If I had the confidence and ability to sharpen by hand I would, at some point i'll learn. But sometimes it takes time and growing confidence to learn those skills. Apologies for any blather and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular just to a certain mindset.  Take Care

(edit I'm a bit hungry and tired, i dont mean to be grumpy it just seems to happen of its own accord sometimes.)


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## Random Orbital Bob (9 Oct 2015)

well said that man.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":1ym840if said:


> The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!


Steady on there Jacob.
Paddy
(trad english bench user, freehand sharpener (mostly), not really concerned what others do but I would recommend a jig for the non mentored beginner so they can find out what sharp means)


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

Oops sorry Paddy. Nothing personal!


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2015)

Jacob":i917bovh said:


> It's difficult because the "normal" way of sharpening (yes it was normal) has been more or less expunged from the record. The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!



Traditional trade sharpening was indeed freehand, but any rounded and/or "thick" bevels were a problem to be avoided, not a desirable technique, and they were removed (by grinding) when they became excessive. Traditional trade sharpening also involved a sequence of stones and strops - any car booter can tell you of the enormous number of slate intermediate and finishing stones that stilll show up.

Any number of instructional/historical books going back to 1830 attest to this.

References and evidence available.  

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2015)

bugbear":69tic412 said:


> ...
> Any number of instructional/historical books going back to 1830 attest to this......


The point I have made many times is that what the books say isn't necessarily what people do.
You can imagine the scenario - author asks old codger how he sharpens - who's never thought about it much and all his chisels have rounded bevels although sharp. He's slightly embarrassed by this but in a flash he recalls what he was taught many years ago and starts chanting on about bevels; primary, secondary, tertiary, precise angles, etc etc, and the myths get perpetuated - but more to the point - nobody record what the old codger actually does, so effectively and so quickly.

Author asks about dovetail angles - old codger dredges the back of his brain and comes up with 1/6 1/8 even though he does them freehand and has never measured them. Author completely ignore all the furniture around him - to which he could have applied his sliding bevel and actually measured the angles people actually use.*

and so on....

*nb this is an interesting thing to do - in the real world you will encounter every angle from about 45º to 0º (at which point it is no longer a dovetail)

PS in fact an old codger wouldn't go on about "primary" and "secondary" bevels as these terms only came into routine use very recently. He might mention grinding at 25 and honing at 30


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3mdicnol said:


> bugbear":3mdicnol said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



This requires _every_ author in _every_ country from 1830 - 1950 to be at worst a liar, and at best ignorant.

An alternative, simpler theory, is that the authors are indeed telling the truth.

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2015)

bugbear":1sh6i56t said:


> Jacob":1sh6i56t said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":1sh6i56t said:
> ...


No they simply trot out the official line. They aren't lying. 
The DT one is the one you can test - go and have a look at some furniture. Either millions of woodworkers didn't know how to cut DTs or the rule is just an arbitrary (but ignorable) figure for guidance for beginners.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Oct 2015)

The "official line" ... according to whom? :?


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## Kalimna (10 Oct 2015)

If it wasn't recorded in, say, books then how would you know what the majority did? As above, Occams Razor, and let's not ask how *that* one is sharpened 

Adam


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## lurker (10 Oct 2015)

The problem in the past 30 years at least, first in hobby magazines and later on the net, is every writer has been in the pay of equipment sellers (somewhere along the line). That may be going away now communications to the masses is getting cheap.
However I have to agree with Jacob that the commonly "sold" idea you need to spend a fortune on kit otherwise you don't have hope of achieving a decent edge is Mad.

If owning stone costing a hundred quid does it for you fine, but don't tell the newbie it's the only way.
The most expensive thing in my sharpening kit is a knock off eclipse holder ..... I think it was £4 I went mad and bought 2.

Unless you ding a edge and need to grind it out, how on earth can it take more than 2 mins to get a working edge?
I admit to buying rough second hand chisels and plane blades and taking up to 30 minutes to getting them decent but that's a once in a life time operation.


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## matthewwh (10 Oct 2015)

I'm very much in the pay of the equipment sellers, but I still teach people to freehand and sell them an oilstone if that is the most appropriate method for their circumstances. 

It's not about tucking as many tools into people as possible, it's all about trying to understand their requirements and equip them with the right tool and technique for the job so that they end up happy and come back.

In all but exceptional cases (dinged edges, 'new' used tools etc) I agree that 2 minutes is plenty, regardless of the technique or materials used.


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2015)

Kalimna":2awulznv said:


> If it wasn't recorded in, say, books then how would you know what the majority did? As above, Occams Razor, and let's not ask how *that* one is sharpened
> 
> Adam



Evidence with DTs is in the furniture. Did these people who presumably knew how to make stuff, follow the rule? Answer - no not very often - only the arts n crafts brigade.
Evidence for sharpening: 
1 many (most?) old tools (including Japanese ones) turn up with rounded bevels
2 Is a rounded bevel in anyway detrimental to the sharpness of a tool? Answer - no
3 Is a freehand flat bevel easier to produce than a rounded one, and would it give any advantage to a tool? Answer - no to both of these. In fact a flat bevel is quite difficult to produce freehand.
4 What do early sharpening jigs look like? Answer - nobody knows because they are extremely rare - hardly anybody used them
5 Why are old oil stones nearly always dished? Answer - because that's how they go with freehand sharpening and nobody would bother flattening them as there would be no advantage.
6 What was the quality of stuff produced in the bad old days when nobody knew how to do anything and things hadn't "moved on" technically?
Answer variable from rubbish to absolutely brilliant and virtually unrepeatable with todays limited skills

etc etc


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## lurker (10 Oct 2015)

matthewwh":1eem6ci1 said:


> I'm very much in the pay of the equipment sellers, but I still teach people to freehand and sell them an oilstone if that is the most appropriate method for their circumstances.
> 
> It's not about tucking as many tools into people as possible, it's all about trying to understand their requirements and equip them with the right tool and technique for the job so that they end up happy and come back.
> 
> In all but exceptional cases (dinged edges, 'new' used tools etc) I agree that 2 minutes is plenty, regardless of the technique or materials used.




I think we all agree you have a different business model to most.
People like You and Ian at dragon are jewels In a sea of scum


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## lurker (10 Oct 2015)

Most of the sharpening kit for sale is a solution looking for a problem, but that's the modern world all over.


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3kns0wwf said:


> 1 many (most?) old tools (including *Japanese* ones) turn up with rounded bevels



I've demolished (with actual evidence, not repeated assertions) your claim that the Japanese normally use (and aim for) rounded bevels before.

I'll just link to it, instead of repeating it.

post788026.html?hilit=%20flat%20bevels%20stick#p788026

So please do everybody the small respect of not repeating a demonstrably unsupported claim unless you have new evidence.

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2015)

bugbear":229gwuvd said:


> Jacob":229gwuvd said:
> 
> 
> > 1 many (most?) old tools (including *Japanese* ones) turn up with rounded bevels
> ...


Nobody "aims for" a rounded bevel - they just happen if you do an easy freehand technique. There's no particular point in a rounded or a flat bevel, either way it's the edge that counts.
Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos. Why would anybody go to the trouble of creating a flat bevel, freehand, when there is absolutely no point in it?


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2015)

Jacob":1dfzbki5 said:


> Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos.



Evidence, not assertions, please.

BugBear


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## Andy Kev. (10 Oct 2015)

bugbear":2ng9havu said:


> Jacob":2ng9havu said:
> 
> 
> > Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos.
> ...


That looks like evidence to me: if he's seen 'em, he's seen 'em. An assertion would be something along the lines of, "I bet Jap woodworkers use rounded chisels all the time".


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2015)

Andy Kev.":3pdrbkbj said:


> bugbear":3pdrbkbj said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3pdrbkbj said:
> ...



No, _that_ would be speculation.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Oct 2015)

Pedant. :lol: 
Correct, though.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (10 Oct 2015)

Personally I usually sharpen freehand apart from the steep bevel (50 degree) iron that came with my QS block plane, which I very rarely use, and sometimes with narrow chisels as I find them tricky to register on the stone. Against all the advice I sharpen a single bevel usually about 30 degrees. After some time I often feel that the the bevel has got steeper as I seem to increase the angle to get the edge, so I grind it back to 25-30 degrees on a sorby pro edge. Now I aim for a flat bevel but as has been pointed out on this forum before (by Matthew) there is no such thing as truly flat so it is probably a bit convex. If the edge is sharp then it really doesn't bother me if it is flat or a bit rounded. I have however read Paul Sellers specifically recommending a rounded bevel as it helps cutting concave profiles, presumably like a convex spoke shave or plane. I can follow this logic but the argument doesn't quite impress me enough to change what I do.
Paddy


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2015)

There seems to be some confusion in this discussion.

To be explicit I assert:

* Trade sharpening was done freehand
* Old stones tend to be dished, at least in length
* bevels on old tools are rarely flat

However, I don't think this points to a long-lost or suppressed secret technique of round bevels.

Let's take a reasonable hypothesis, that the instructional texts by multiple experienced and knowledgeable authors were accurate, and see where it leads us.

The recommended sharpening technique is what we now call "double bevel", where a coarse abrasive, or even grinder, is used to remove material at a "low angle", say 25 degrees. This is the "primary bevel".

Honing, on a finer abrasive is done at a slightly steeper angle (30-ish), and is thus done on a small "secondary bevel" (plenty of diagrams on line).

The small size of the secondary bevel means that honing goes quickly, even when using fine abrasives. When the secondary bevel gets large, or steep, you just rework the primary a bit.

In all this the authors recommend keeping the bevel angle constant, or the hands at the same height throughout the stroke, which amounts to the same thing.

Now, in practise, keeping the angle constant when hand sharpening is quite tricky.

In practise, both the primary and secondary bevel angles can vary a bit. This doesn't really cause a problem, as long as the primary and secondary angles are a fair bit apart, and 5 degrees is normal practise (25 and 30).

Interestingly, since the secondary bevel is small, there's no need for a flat stone, longitudinally, since any curvature would have a minimal effect in such a short distance (aside - this is true for jigs too).

And the overall bevel would appear "not flat".

Gentles all - I put it to you that there is no conflict between the books and the evidence we see on old tools and stones. It's double bevel sharpening all the way.

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2015)

bugbear":1f81jbgy said:


> Jacob":1f81jbgy said:
> 
> 
> > Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos.
> ...


I've seen the evidence. You haven't (or have failed to notice). So what?

BTW the familiar double bevel advice is good advice for a beginner and the text books are largely for beginners. But with more experience one finds one's own way - and you start to recognise it in other people's work or tools. You would too BB, if you did a little more woodwork and a little less theorising! It's never too late to start!

NB non of the old books mentions sharpening jigs. I wonder why?


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## Paddy Roxburgh (10 Oct 2015)

Had a quick google for a cartoon I once saw in a newspaper but couldn't find it so I'll paraphrase. 
Wife "Come on darling turn the computer off and come to bed"
Husband "No, but, but, there's a man on the internet and he's WRONG"


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Oct 2015)

Or - don't argue on line with idiots you don't know. The best possible outcome is that you win an argument with an silly person you don't know.


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Oct 2015)

Game set and match to Bugbear this time I'm afraid Jacob  He's tied and trussed you up in a web of evidential fact that not even you can wriggle out of. Sorry old son. Having said that, I still agree that for the OP, the repeated learning of freehand sharpening is definitely a good idea, regardless of who is right and who is wrong historically.

These sharpening threads remind me of religious debates. Since nobody can prove anything, it just becomes one belief system butting up against another.
I think we should arrange a UKW boxing match between BB and Jacob. We could all pay a tenner to watch and make a mint for charity


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## knockknock (10 Oct 2015)

Jacob":10h7xpb4 said:


> bugbear":10h7xpb4 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":10h7xpb4 said:
> ...


The viewpoint of an occasional hobby woodworker. I can register a flat bevel on a flat stone and get it sharp. This is similar to using a jig, but without the jig, plus I am matching the existing bevel.

Edit: OOPS, I was on the bottom of the previous page, oh well...


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## D_W (10 Oct 2015)

I would call it a single bevel with a bias...you cut the primary and then bias the fine stone at the edge of the bevel. The notion that it's hard to keep a consistent angle is not correct, though. It's easy to do that, but when you do it you don't know precisely what it is because it doesn't matter. You will naturally settle on an angle that results in a durable edge that isn't too hard to get through wood.


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## G S Haydon (10 Oct 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":2svasnvs said:


> Game set and match to Bugbear this time I'm afraid Jacob  He's tied and trussed you up in a web of evidential fact that not even you can wriggle out of. Sorry old son. Having said that, I still agree that for the OP, the repeated learning of freehand sharpening is definitely a good idea, regardless of who is right and who is wrong historically.
> 
> These sharpening threads remind me of religious debates. Since nobody can prove anything, it just becomes one belief system butting up against another.
> I think we should arrange a UKW boxing match between BB and Jacob. We could all pay a tenner to watch and make a mint for charity



Well I'll come off the subs bench and see what I can offer.

In Odate's book on Japanese tools he has a page showing the creation of a rounded bevel to give more support behind a tool with a brittle edge, something he mentions that could occur when a tool is new. I think he called it feathering out but I can't be sure without checking.

Lie Nielsen have a video showing the creation of a rounded bevel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo0IXn0pSic

Not all trade manuals talk about using a sequence of stones, some discuss using one. Latterly it was mainly an Washita or an India.

Planecraft by Record tools mentions how some tradesmen liked to hone a complete bevel.

Jim Kingshott mentions how some craftsmen did that as well

The guidance in books is not to round the edge over, in effect steepening to high 30's. Jacobs edges are not rounded over.

Jacob beats the freehand rounded drum pretty hard and sadly I think he might actually put some people off. However he does apply his methods and makes things to a high standard http://www.owdman.co.uk/furniture/shaker_table_1.jpg http://www.owdman.co.uk/

There is a guy called Warren Mickley in the US who maintains his tools with one bevel. I think he's studied Roubo's work and he works only with had tools. 

Personally I don't give a darn about how someone does it, whatever is consistent and reliable for them. In my opinion, more important is evidence of application of method. On a recount I think it goes to Jacob :lol: No offense BB (hammer) :lol:


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## graduate_owner (10 Oct 2015)

Wow, what a can of worms!! Interesting though.
Coming back to my post about never getting really sharp chisels, I would like to thank all those who have offered advice. I shall indeed try a finer honing medium. I will probably continue with my Axminster jig for the moment (I bought this because my old Eclipse jig wouldn't grip firmer chisels, only bevel chisels, because of a groove in the sides). 
Also I have a few really naff chisels which I intend to try to sharpen freehand and it won't matter if they end up worse than they already are if it turns out that the learning curve is longer than expected. Who knows - I may yet ditch the jig?

Just one other point, and I am not trying to create another contentious issue here but, what about honing on a polishing wheel? The reason I'm asking is I recently bought a Canning polisher. It's free standing and looks like a serious bit of kit. It's only 1 HP, 3 phase, but the motor housing is about 12" diameter and I think it will happily run all day. So would a sisal mop and some cutting compound give me a razor edge or would it be a waste of time? I have to find a use for this Canning - I bought it for £30 delivered so really couldn't turn it down.

K


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Oct 2015)

I would definitely encourage trying it with a bit of compound. I have a Tormek which I don't use very much any more but which has a leather stropping wheel for burr removal and polishing. What I've found is that once you have an edge sharp....you use it and dull it. If you bring that dull edge back to the honing wheel and give it a polish with some compound, you can tickle back the edge a few times before it needs to be reground. If you let it get really blunt that method doesn't work. So it seems to me that if the edge is already quite fine, the stropping method works, if the edge has rolled over considerably, the abrasive effect of the strop isn't coarse enough to restore it. So if you go little and often it's a super quick way of tickling back en edge.


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## Zeddedhed (10 Oct 2015)

Not sure what this adds to the discussion but here goes.

I have a variety of methods and combine the use of a Tormek, a Veritas Honing guide and freehand.

I tend to use the Tormek when things have got in bit of a state.

At the bench I flit between freehand (whilst working and trying to make money) and Jigged (when having a 'sharpening' session, usually of an evening or at the weekend - hobby time.)

The finest stone I have is a DMT 1000. I then strop onto a foot long length of leather belt glued to a block of wood. I sometimes remember to rub this with a mystery block of yellow stuff that came with a flex cut whittling knife.

The edge is always good enough to shave with and always good enough for the woodwork I do (which I do for a living).

I can never be bothered to do anything to the back of planes or chisels unless they are cratered like a pizza. Then I blast them on the edge of the Tormek wheel or give them a rub on a DMT XXX coarse stone.

I've never managed to achieve mirror like polishes on anything but can't see how it would make my life better.

Rounded, flat, primary, secondary, all just words to me. Dangerously pointy is my aim.

Maybe I could learn the way of the Jedi and go all the way to grits with loads of 00's and hone on a fossilised carrot whilst reciting some weird ju-ju but that would be for fun, not for woodwork.


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## graduate_owner (10 Oct 2015)

Ha, fossilsed carrot has never worked for me, but parsnip- now that's a different story.

K


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## Zeddedhed (10 Oct 2015)

graduate_owner":jtqwbwbm said:


> Ha, fossilsed carrot has never worked for me, but parsnip- now that's a different story.
> 
> K



I'm pretty sure that if you check with Jacob he'll confirm that parsnip stropping is a new fangled invention that's totally unnecessary.

No one did it with any other root vegetable in the past - just carrots.

But hey, if you want to 'waste' your money on parsnips and the like go ahead. It won't make your edge any better.

Huh! Next thing you know they'll be suggesting swede or turnip. Pah!!


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":3ipoicya said:


> Game set and match to Bugbear this time I'm afraid Jacob  He's tied and trussed you up in a web of evidential fact that not even you can wriggle out of. ....


Really? I must have missed something.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Oct 2015)

Thought you might have ...


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## griggs (11 Oct 2015)

Fantastic to see generous offers of helping the OP with some one on one tuition which I'm sure will help him out. 

I'm considering going to the Axminster sharpening course, has anyone been on it or recommend a better one?

Thanks


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## G S Haydon (11 Oct 2015)

Where are you based griggs?


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2015)

If you are anywhere near me you are welcome to drop in and I'll show you how to freehand on an oil stone. 10 minutes praps, doesn't take long to get the idea. By the time you've done it 10 times or so you would be an expert!


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## griggs (12 Oct 2015)

G S Haydon":2sluitgw said:


> Where are you based griggs?




I'm in Sidmouth in East Devon. You?


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## griggs (12 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3g34xtzr said:


> If you are anywhere near me you are welcome to drop in and I'll show you how to freehand on an oil stone. 10 minutes praps, doesn't take long to get the idea. By the time you've done it 10 times or so you would be an expert!




Thank you for the kind offer Jacob, if ever I find myself up that way I'll be sure to contact you, always willing to learn something.


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## lurker (12 Oct 2015)

griggs":32p7m7zw said:


> Fantastic to see generous offers of helping the OP with some one on one tuition which I'm sure will help him out.
> 
> I'm considering going to the Axminster sharpening course, has anyone been on it or recommend a better one?
> 
> Thanks



Bear in mind Axminster is not a charity, their motive is to sell you stuff, maybe stuff you don't need.


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## griggs (12 Oct 2015)

lurker":14v7ye2f said:


> griggs":14v7ye2f said:
> 
> 
> > Fantastic to see generous offers of helping the OP with some one on one tuition which I'm sure will help him out.
> ...



Indeed, I wonder how much of the course is a subtle or possibly not even subtle, sales pitch.


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## G S Haydon (12 Oct 2015)

In North Devon mate, South Molton http://gshaydon.co.uk/


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## Jacob (13 Oct 2015)

G S Haydon":1v9dira1 said:


> In North Devon mate, South Molton http://gshaydon.co.uk/


That's not far from Braunton is it.
The reason I mention it is that the latest Regional Furniture Society newsletter has pictures of a chest, in the church, with the most spectacular dovetails, which make those fashionable arts n crafts DTs look really silly! 
Not good enough to photocopy from the mag, couldn't find them by google, so I'll have to get down there with my camera - unless you get there first Graham!

http://regionalfurnituresociety.org/ is really interesting, though a bit worthy and antique dealery


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## griggs (13 Oct 2015)

G S Haydon":1ue4imyk said:


> In North Devon mate, South Molton http://gshaydon.co.uk/



Very nice website there Graham. I'm stuck at home recovering from a hernia op last week so had a fair nose through your blog and was particularly interested in the sharpening video using, no offence intended, run of the mill chisels and standard equipment to provide a good starting point for sharpening. Well presented and concise. 

In your discussion of hand planes, you eluded to doing a video on sharpening of the plane irons, is this something you got around to doing as I couldn't seem to find it?

Never been to South Molton itself, but passed by the area many times on the North Devon link road on way to Barnstaple etc.

Thanks

PS I also noted in your #4 tuning that you appeared to use the bed of your jointer / thicknesses as the base to true the sole of the plane, would you say most cast iron tool beds are suitably flat? Thanks again.


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## G S Haydon (16 Oct 2015)

Griggs, sorry for the slow reply! It a bit toe curling reading back over my blog but thanks for bearing with it. You should be bale to find my plane sharpening vid by just searching in YT. 

I did use the planer bed and it was just fine. Recently I used some melamine faced MDF on the bench top for tuning up a cheap plane and that worked ok as well. 

It's interesting for me to look at how I was interested in flattening and trying that out. To a great extent not much of that was required. 

The offer is there if you're passing, just PM me and I'm sure we could sort something. 


Jacob, sorry also to you! I will investigate that further. Braunton is a 30min drive or so. I'm very lucky to have quite a few interesting places to visit, I'll add it to the list!


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## blackrodd (17 Oct 2015)

Jacob":7t869038 said:


> G S Haydon":7t869038 said:
> 
> 
> > In North Devon mate, South Molton http://gshaydon.co.uk/
> ...



Jacob, If Graham Haydon can't get to photo you're Chest, then I would do it for you' I'm only 10 miles from Braunton.
Assuming that I can get in the church and have access to the chest and take pics that will suit you.
I am unable to send pics on the computer but if My daughter calls over then perhaps she will send them, or if you have a memory card to suit my Sony cyber shot 610, and reader,I can take as many as you like, and send the card back.
PM me if I can help and save you a trip!
Regards Rodders


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## G S Haydon (17 Oct 2015)

Wow, we are close blackrod. If you're near South Molton drop me a line.


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## blackrodd (17 Oct 2015)

G S Haydon":h42ikbz3 said:


> Wow, we are close blackrod. If you're near South Molton drop me a line.



About 7 miles, I pass you when I'm in MVF, or the coal yard when 'Er indoors send me in for some Black Gold.
I'll give you a buzz, as you say. Regards Rodders


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## Jacob (17 Oct 2015)

blackrodd":2qma50gc said:


> Jacob":2qma50gc said:
> 
> 
> > G S Haydon":2qma50gc said:
> ...


Thanks Rodders. Perhaps your daughter could just post them on here? They'd make an interesting change from those fashionable but boring DTs which everybody seems to admire nowadays.
I don't know how accessible the chest is - it didn't say in the mag
It's not urgent or anything - I'll get there sooner or later. Planning a visit to St Fagans and the American Museum some time and they are all down that way.


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## autolisp (21 Oct 2015)

I have just joined the UKWorkshop family and was reading through the forum topics when I came across yours. Have you heard of the 'Scary Sharp' method?

Look it up on YouTube. It involves the use of fine grit emery (wet and dry) paper. You can purchase this in any automotive shop. The most important part is getting a 'flat' surface to stick the emery paper to.

I have not read all the replies to your question, so apologies if it has been mentioned previously.


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## sploo (31 Oct 2015)

Despite being subscribed (to my own thread) I appear to have missed the last few pages of posts. No idea why, as I've been otherwise active on the forum recently.

Anyway... I'm back to report that I popped (ok, trekked) up to Matthew's "Workshop Heaven" site yesterday. In the end I was frankly feeling a little bit embarrassed about how much time he spent going over stuff with me as I'm sure he had better things to do! (huge thanks to him for that)

He's clearly got a lot of knowledge about the construction processes of chisels and steels, and why that results in differing levels of quality. We went through some simple oil stone sharpening (similar to what I've been doing), but I was particularly interested in the Scary Sharpening system.

I'd stress that at no point did he make any attempt to get a sale on anything, but after trying it (a Scary Sharpening kit) I was definitely going to leave with one. Lots to practice, but I have a series of notes so my addled brain can recall the details.

We also went over sharpening my plane iron, setting it back up, and some basic technique. Again, lots of useful stuff learned.

His enthusiasm for the gear resulted in him breaking out a Plough Plane. It's not something I've ever used before (or a larger... I think... No 5 1/2 plane), but they were great fun to use - very satisfying vs just pushing something though a thicknesser or over a router table. If I ever got back into making jewellery boxes I'd seriously consider the plough as a good way for making dados and groves for fitting stringing and banding.

If you're into planes, chisels, or Famag forstner bits (drool) then I'd highly recommend going for a look around his warehouse - it's somewhat pornographic for woodworkers :wink:


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## D_W (31 Oct 2015)

If you're using oilstones now, don't discard them, because you'll probably come back to them eventually.


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## iNewbie (31 Oct 2015)

I agree - it'll make a great doorstop....


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## D_W (31 Oct 2015)

iNewbie":3d19yep7 said:


> I agree - it'll make a great doorstop....



That's what several wooden planes I've bought were sold as in the US. 

One was an unused JT Brown jointer plane from the early 1800s - doorstop value was $25 as far as the seller was concerned (old unused planes aren't common here). 

Oilstones have substantially more practical value in the shop, especially if they are washita or hard arkansas.


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## sploo (31 Oct 2015)

D_W":rv2xjyk3 said:


> If you're using oilstones now, don't discard them, because you'll probably come back to them eventually.


I've only got an old Norton India stone, but I did end up using it today.

I put the kit together and started to have a go with my 1" chisel, and hit the same problem as Matthew; trying to get the middle of the back of the chisel flat-to-concave was taking ages (he spent several minutes with the 100 micron film, and I did more).

Of my three cheap chisels, only the 1/2" wasn't convex on the back. So bad were the other two that, in the absence of the grinder I haven't set up yet, I ended up using my bobbin sander to try to grind a concave back into the 3/4" and 1" chisels. It took much more effort than I expected (i.e. I certainly wasn't overdoing it).

I did however eventually manage to use the sharpening kit to get the tips of the backs to a mirror finish:







Both of those larger chisels really need the primary bevel completely reground, but instead I did the best I could with the coarse side of the oil stone, then cleaned them up a little with the films, and made a new(ish) secondary bevel, before removing the burr.

After I took the second attached shot I realised it was actually highlighting the primary, rather than secondary, bevel - but both bevels have a reasonable finish.






So, in summary: these are cheap chisels that have been abused for many years, incompetently sharpened (by me), and really need some proper grinding work. I've also realised why my Axminster sharpening guide/jig is a bit cr*p compared to the ones Matthew sells (too easy for the chisel to twist in the jig). Plus of course, it was my first time with the kit.

The next sharpening should of course be much easier, now that they're in slightly better shape.

The crucial question of course is, how do they cut? The answer is better than they ever have before. All three will cut a piece of paper from the side. All three will happily cut (reasonably) clean shavings from end grain pine with very little hand pressure (no mallet required).

Although I didn't need to do anything with my No 4 plane, I did get to try it out (Matthew sharpened the iron and set it up). It cuts like a dream - again better than it ever has done before.

Definitely more to learn (and experience to gain) but I'm very happy with the results. Oh apart from the weird round bottle for the Honerite #1 fluid: it's one of those containers that's specifically designed to pour the liquid absolutely everywhere, except where you want it!


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## Jacob (31 Oct 2015)

Hate to say it (again) but this craze for flattening chisel and plane blade faces is completely pointless. Can have no possible effect on sharpness as this is confined only to the very edge and even if double bevelled and corkscrew shape can still be made to cut paper/shave with etc. Though a bit of polishing close to the edge is good as this is the area of most friction.

Hate to say it (again) but Honerite is one of the most expensive and pointless fluids going and does no more than wd40, white spirit etc. I think the bottle is designed that way so that you waste it fast and buy some more.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Oct 2015)

D_W":1ii8cyxx said:


> If you're using oilstones now, don't discard them, because you'll probably come back to them eventually.


I wouldn't be quite so certain. I've not touched one for 35 years. I'm not about to tell other people not to, though.


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## sploo (31 Oct 2015)

Jacob":1mfngeh2 said:


> Hate to say it (again) but this craze for flattening chisel and plane blade faces is completely pointless. Can have no possible effect on sharpness as this is confined only to the very edge and even if double bevelled and corkscrew shape can still be made to cut paper/shave with etc. Though a bit of polishing close to the edge is good as this is the area of most friction.
> 
> Hate to say it (again) but Honerite is one of the most expensive and pointless fluids going and does no more than wd40, white spirit etc. I think the bottle is designed that way so that you waste it fast and buy some more.


The/a problem with the Scary Sharpening system is that as the film is stuck to a sheet of glass you'd need to have just the tip of the chisel on the glass/film in order to smooth the back of the tip (if the back isn't concave). Any more than just the tip and, as I found out, you just end up smoothing something other than the tip.

Funny you mention white spirit - I did think the Honerite smelled very familiar. I'm not going to argue about the waste, as I was cursing the bottle design.


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## blackrodd (1 Nov 2015)

Does anyone clean the residue that ends up clogging an oilstone?
I did mention a while ago, my father, who worked for Hamptons, (famous for furniture up to around the 50's).
kept his oil stones in parrafin with a squirt of oil, which came half way up the oilstones and the stones were turned weekly. 
Just take the stone out, wipe off and sit it in the usual block/holder (we made years ago), just a little 3-1 and it cuts really well! I have an oilstone in the van and when I remember to bring it in for a swap or wash off , a real transformation.
Regards Rodders


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## Jacob (1 Nov 2015)

Yep. I use a 3m Diapad because I happen to have one. About £6 on ebay but last forever. Other things will do it. 
Basically it's essential to freshen up the surface every now and then as they do get clogged up. It helps if they are always flooded with fluid in use - no honing on a dry stone or with the fluid turning to paste. Always wiped off before putting the lid back on and kept wet in the box as Rodders describes is good. Also a strong magnet will lift off the swarf.


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## Jacob (1 Nov 2015)

sploo":17kyhvtx said:


> .......
> The/a problem with the Scary Sharpening system is that as the film is stuck to a sheet of glass you'd need to have just the tip of the chisel on the glass/film in order to smooth the back of the tip (if the back isn't concave). Any more than just the tip and, as I found out, you just end up smoothing something other than the tip.


Well yes. You can't flatten the whole face every time you sharpen. Whichever method you use you end up removing more from the vicinity of the edge and over time make the face go slightly convex. But that's how you do it and it isn't a problem


> Funny you mention white spirit - I did think the Honerite smelled very familiar. I'm not going to argue about the waste, as I was cursing the bottle design.


It's a rip off. Somebody gave me a tin. Impossible to pour without spilling it. Used it up in a few days but then re-used the tin by making a pin hole in the lid so it squirts neatly. Got white spirit in it but says Honerite on the label. :lol: There's no difference except colour and smell. Maybe they use diesel?


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## bugbear (1 Nov 2015)

sploo":yd4tf3iz said:


> So, in summary: these are cheap chisels that have been abused for many years, incompetently sharpened (by me), and really need some proper grinding work. I've also realised why my Axminster sharpening guide/jig is a bit cr*p compared to the ones Matthew sells (too easy for the chisel to twist in the jig). Plus of course, it was my first time with the kit.
> 
> The next sharpening should of course be much easier, now that they're in slightly better shape.
> 
> The crucial question of course is, how do they cut? The answer is better than they ever have before. All three will cut a piece of paper from the side. All three will happily cut (reasonably) clean shavings from end grain pine with very little hand pressure (no mallet required).



Nice one.
=D> =D> =D> 

BugBear


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## sploo (1 Nov 2015)

Jacob":26ooegkq said:


> Yep. I use a 3m Diapad because I happen to have one. About £6 on ebay but last forever. Other things will do it.
> Basically it's essential to freshen up the surface every now and then as they do get clogged up. It helps if they are always flooded with fluid in use - no honing on a dry stone or with the fluid turning to paste. Always wiped off before putting the lid back on and kept wet in the box as Rodders describes is good. Also a strong magnet will lift off the swarf.


I do wipe my oil stone after use, but the idea of keeping it "wet", and also a magnet, is interesting.



Jacob":26ooegkq said:


> Well yes. You can't flatten the whole face every time you sharpen. Whichever method you use you end up removing more from the vicinity of the edge and over time make the face go slightly convex. But that's how you do it and it isn't a problem
> 
> It's a rip off. Somebody gave me a tin. Impossible to pour without spilling it. Used it up in a few days but then re-used the tin by making a pin hole in the lid so it squirts neatly. Got white spirit in it but says Honerite on the label. :lol: There's no difference except colour and smell. Maybe they use diesel?


It was hard this time because the chisels were in such a state. The 1/2" did seem to be slightly concave, so was actually pretty easy to sharpen (just a few minutes - if that). Hopefully from now on it'll be fairly simple; though having got the grinder set up I'll probably redo the primary bevels as soon as I have a problem getting an edge. It's a cheap grinder so there's no angle setting guide - that's something for me to look into on another day.

Honerite - the pin hole is a great idea. I'll do that.

I've got litres of white sprit... and a diesel car on the drive :wink:... so I guess I'll be fine if I run out. Surely derv would be a bit oily though?

When I was using the oil stone yesterday (with 3-in-1) I was very careful not to cross contaminate with the Honerite via either the chisel or wheel on the honing guide.




bugbear":26ooegkq said:


> Nice one.
> =D> =D> =D>
> 
> BugBear


Thanks. I was actually quite surprised in the end. I had that horrible expectation of failure, given the hassle of sorting out the backs. I don't tend to use the chisels (or plane) that often so if they don't hold an edge for long it's not a disaster. The important thing is of course that I can now rely on them when I do need them.


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## Jacob (1 Nov 2015)

sploo":tbs7i24y said:


> .... Honerite - the pin hole is a great idea. I'll do that.....


Then when the tin is empty just fill it with white spirit (or anything thin and oily). You will hardly notice any difference.


sploo":tbs7i24y said:


> .... Surely derv would be a bit oily though?....


Yes that's the idea. Honerite is very oily, along with wd40, 3in 1 etc. White spirit is more or less very thin oil. They all work. Doesn't matter if you mix them up - "cross contamination" doesn't come in to it!


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## D_W (1 Nov 2015)

Are you guys talking about the same stuff that says to add it to water to make water "non corrosive"?

It looks like that stuff costs about $6 per little amount to add to a liter of water over here :shock:


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## Jacob (1 Nov 2015)

Honerite 1 is about £64 a litre which makes it more expensive than a good single malt scotch. As compared to diesel at £1.20 a litre which is a very similar thin oil. Would you use scotch whiskey as a honing fluid? Why not it'd save money and any left over you could drink it.
Adding the non rust stuff to water seems a bit insane - why not just use oil in the old fashioned way? Any oil but Honerite 1 that is!


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## Cheshirechappie (1 Nov 2015)

"White spirit" (UK) is the same as "Mineral Spirits" (US), usually sold in the UK as a decorator's brush cleaner and general purpose organic solvent. It's a mixture of aliphatic and alicyclic C7 to C12 hydrocarbons, with a maximum content of 25% aromatic hydrocarbons (but, of course, everybody knew that anyway!).

Mineral oil is probably most easily obtained in the UK as baby oil - any good chemist, or (as some kind people informed me on this forum) at about half the price in most supermarkets. It's very similar to 3-in-1 household oil, but significantly cheaper. If anybody has access to thin hydraulic oils, they're much the same, as are thin lubricating oils, but they tend not to be as refined as that sold for pharmaceutical use, and have the potential to be mildly carcinogenic with frequent contact.

Not sure what's in 'Honerite'; it's a proprietary concoction sold by Norton (I think). Whether it's any more effective than mineral oil (baby oil) is moot.

I think some people have used machinist's soluble oils (which aren't really oils, but coolants). They may work, but are not intended to lubricate; the newer formulations don't suffer quite the biodegredation and stink of those familiar to engineering apprentices thirty years ago. Some people may use machinist's cutting oils, but be careful with these, as they have a reputation for being mildly carcinogenic if used frequently. Diesel is probably best avoided, too, for the same reason; it can also cause dermatitis.

All sorts of thin, slightly oily substances will work (olive oil aka 'sweet oil' used to be the oil of choice in the days of non-porous stones, but best avoided on modern man-made porous stones), but some are more pleasantto use than others, and possibly safer health-wise long term.


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## MIGNAL (1 Nov 2015)

Yeah but Honerite has a powerful dual action. Come to think of it a decent Scotch might have a powerful dual action too.


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## Cheshirechappie (1 Nov 2015)

MIGNAL":2nqghjt5 said:


> Yeah but Honerite has a powerful dual action. Come to think of it a decent Scotch might have a powerful dual action too.



I think that would depend on the distillery. You wouldn't want one of those peaty Islay malts leaving deposits on your stones. Or your sharpening equipment, come to that.


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## Jacob (1 Nov 2015)

Honerite is mixed by http://www.shieldtechnology.co.uk/ 
If you look on their site you see an industrial estate. I suspect they are in a little shed there, or an old caravan, somewhere in a corner; two blokes and a dog, mixing bought-in stuff in buckets and tin baths.


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## D_W (1 Nov 2015)

Jacob":3055hy48 said:


> Honerite 1 is about £64 a litre which makes it more expensive than a good single malt scotch. As compared to diesel at £1.20 a litre which is a very similar thin oil. Would you use scotch whiskey as a honing fluid? Why not it'd save money and any left over you could drink it.
> Adding the non rust stuff to water seems a bit insane - why not just use oil in the old fashioned way? Any oil but Honerite 1 that is!



I was going to suggest twenty dollar bills soaked in mineral oil or three in one. It would be cheaper in the long run. I gather from the reviews that the marks are concerned about rust on diamond hones, but none though of just wiping the standing water off of their hones with an old towel...for free.


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## MIGNAL (1 Nov 2015)

Jacob":2g5fgxsy said:


> Honerite is mixed by http://www.shieldtechnology.co.uk/
> If you look on their site you see an industrial estate. I suspect they are in a little shed there, or an old caravan, somewhere in a corner; two blokes and a dog, mixing bought-in stuff in buckets and tin baths.



Hey! Nowt wrong with that. Buckets and tin baths are fine example of craft or cottage industry. Let's just hope that the two blokes and the dog aren't relying on tax credits. Saved by the lords (more snake oil salesmen), for now.


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## G S Haydon (1 Nov 2015)

I think Baby Oil is my fave. Easy to pick up in the supermarket and pretty safe to use. If any type of petrochemicals is off the list Neatsfoot can still be purchased along with CC's olive oil, although I'm sure crisp & dry would do :lol: . I have some neatsfoot to try but still need to finish up the Baby oil.


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## Jacob (1 Nov 2015)

I wonder if Honerite would be OK on the baby?
I'll have to ask those two blokes in a shed.
Anybody remember Sensitol lubrication? Was that a Shield Tech product?
Can you fry chips in baby oil, or honerite for that matter?


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Nov 2015)

KY jelly?


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## iNewbie (1 Nov 2015)

Did you have to slip that one in phil?


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## sploo (5 Dec 2015)

I've just picked up an old Record #44 plough plane - complete with the extra metric cutters, so it was a pretty good deal. Unfortunately, the cutters themselves looked like they'd been used to cut that all too commonly found hardwood: loadsanailsineyre

Having gotten acquainted with my cheapo grinder, getting new chip free bevels wasn't too hard. I've come to find that a bobbin sander works best for grinding a hollow into the rear of a cutter, but I'd be interested in knowing how others do it.

I was then faced with 11 cutters to sharpen, and I couldn't face fighting with the Axminster honing guide. I've seen a couple of Paul Sellers' videos (sharpening a chisel and a plane iron) and he goes for a convex edge (by sliding the blade back and forth, changing the angle slightly). I thought I'd have a go.

Surprisingly, it went pretty well. So well in fact that I grabbed my 3/4" chisel to see if it was harder with a chisel than a plough plane blade; the opposite in fact - much easier. By that time I'd sussed out a circular motion (much more comfortable than just going back and forth). As I'm using the scary sharpening method you have to be very careful to not dig the tip in on the forward stroke, but the technique of pushing forward and down (so the tip raises) and back and up (tip down) means it works pretty well.

I'm sure my angles aren't that great, but everything I sharpened will slice paper, and the plough plane blades all work OK.

Consider me a convert to _not_ using a honing guide.

The only thing I've not attempted yet is a plane iron. I have a Stanley #4 1/2 on its way from another eBay purchase, so we'll see how that one goes :wink:


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## ED65 (6 Dec 2015)

sploo":1wizp8q9 said:


> The only thing I've not attempted yet is a plane iron. I have a Stanley #4 1/2 on its way from another eBay purchase, so we'll see how that one goes :wink:


You should find them easiest of all to sharpen freehand. The width of plane irons means they register particularly well on your sharpening media. 

With the narrowness of many chisels or some narrow cutter there's the possibility of rocking side to side as you sharpen, creating a slightly cambered or rounded profile which is not usually desirable. Perversely, on plane irons where they're unlikely to happen by accident you might actually want a camber on your edge!


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## lurker (6 Dec 2015)

G S Haydon said:


> I think Baby Oil is my fave. Easy to pick up in the supermarket and pretty safe to use. If any type of petrochemicals is off the list Neatsfoot can still be purchased along with CC's olive oil, although I'm sure crisp & dry would do :lol: . I have some neatsfoot to try but still need to finish up the Baby oil.[/quote
> 
> Baby oil is simply liquid paraffin with perfume added
> Branded food safe finishes are often little more than liquid paraffin.
> ...


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## sploo (6 Dec 2015)

ED65":1dvf4cgd said:


> You should find them easiest of all to sharpen freehand. The width of plane irons means they register particularly well on your sharpening media.
> 
> With the narrowness of many chisels or some narrow cutter there's the possibility of rocking side to side as you sharpen, creating a slightly cambered or rounded profile which is not usually desirable. Perversely, on plane irons where they're unlikely to happen by accident you might actually want a camber on your edge!


I know what you mean about the camber - the first time I sharpened my #4 plane iron I didn't put enough (well, any really) camber on the corners and it was creating steps when I planed.

Having seen Sellers' video on sharpening a plane iron it looks as though he puts way more of a round on the corners than I've done, so next time I'll be a bit more aggressive with it (and obviously I'll do that with the #4 1/2 iron when it turns up).


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## bugbear (7 Dec 2015)

sploo":3bjv23um said:


> Consider me a convert to _not_ using a honing guide.
> 
> The only thing I've not attempted yet is a plane iron. I have a Stanley #4 1/2 on its way from another eBay purchase, so we'll see how that one goes :wink:



Hand honing is easy - just after grinding.

The difficulty, mentioned in all the old texts, is that the bevel angle tends to get
a little steeper every time you do it, so you eventually need to regrind to lower it again.
The difficulty is making sure that each grit gets as far as the actual edge,
and doesn't just polish the bevel, so you tend to - just a bit - raise
the angle "to be sure". Of course, removing metal from the edge itself
is really fast, so the angle tends to creep high and higher.

This is not a fundamental problem, just part of the hand honing
"context".

BugBear


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## ED65 (7 Dec 2015)

sploo":2gtscvau said:


> Having seen Sellers' video on sharpening a plane iron it looks as though he puts way more of a round on the corners than I've done, so next time I'll be a bit more aggressive with it (and obviously I'll do that with the #4 1/2 iron when it turns up).


Yes you've got to take the corners off at least but I'm not a fan of Paul's method for this, it's not that the rounding is excessive it's just that the conventional way to knock the corners off is much simpler and faster for anyone with relatively little experience. 

You basically just drag each corner of the iron across the abrasive while rotating it a bit in your fingers. If you're sharpening on a stone it's sometimes best to use the side of it so that you don't risk scoring the face of the stone, particularly important with softer waterstones.


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## Bluekingfisher (7 Dec 2015)

I can see the merits in both free hand and jig sharpening. For me it is by use of jig (in the main) chisels and plane irons are sharpened this way (LV MKII) it provides repeatability, quick to use and removes minimal material from the iron.

As BB mentioned, free hand sharpening for me seemed to increase the angle very quickly which required frequent re grinding of the iron, not a real problem as I have a Tormek, although I cannot but help wonder how quickly I am grinding irons away.

All other edge tools I sharpen free hand. I use diamoid plates with baby oil as the lubricant, no rusty plates, nice smell and soft hands  



David


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2015)

bugbear":3vzyeckv said:


> .........
> The difficulty, mentioned in all the old texts, is that the bevel angle tends to get
> a little steeper every time you do it, ......


Only if you want it to. The rounded bevel "dip as you go" avoids this.


> The difficulty is making sure that each grit gets as far as the actual edge,


You do this by feeling the burr. If you can't feel the burr right across after a minute or so you need to go to a coarser grit.


> ...., removing metal from the edge itself
> is really fast, so the angle tends to creep high and higher.


Only if you let it


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## sploo (7 Dec 2015)

Jacob":3cm194c7 said:


> bugbear":3cm194c7 said:
> 
> 
> > .........
> ...


It did occur to me that the next time I sharpen I'd have to be very careful to not just rock the tip further (I suspect it'd be easy to just keep rocking forward and hitting the edge - but then making it steeper over time). That said, I suspect a bit of work at a slightly lower angle on a coarse grit would help.


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## D_W (7 Dec 2015)

sploo":bmxjiyjq said:


> It did occur to me that the next time I sharpen I'd have to be very careful to not just rock the tip further (I suspect it'd be easy to just keep rocking forward and hitting the edge - but then making it steeper over time). That said, I suspect a bit of work at a slightly lower angle on a coarse grit would help.



100% accurate - fast stones for coarse grit (like crystolon, etc) and slower stones for fine grit will help you not commit the mortal sin of just rolling it up "a little more" to get the edge. 

A grinder and a single stone for a while (a washita is my preference) eliminates chasing the angle steeper in progressive stones. There is only one angle to learn and you never have to deviate. If you need just sharper than the washita for something like a paring chisel, a burnisher like jasper does a fabulous job without removing much metal, so there's little sin to correct for next time.


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## sploo (11 Dec 2015)

I sharpened the #4 1/2 plane iron this evening. Getting the back face flat was a pig - it had a pretty major hump, and even the "hit it with a nylon hammer" trick didn't work. Quite a bit of grinding with a bobbin sander (and a lot of elbow grease) and it's acceptable. Very glad I only need to do that once.

By comparison, the bevel was unsurprisingly easy. Of course, when I cut my lapping film sheets for the scary sharpening system I did them at 60mm, as that was bigger than my #4 iron. I'm sure you can spot the problem ( :wink: ) but it worked out OK in the end.

The striations are the reflection of my garage ceiling - it's a nice mirror finish and cuts well.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2015)

sploo":1ca3tyzm said:


> I sharpened the #4 1/2 plane iron this evening. Getting the back face flat was a pig - it had a pretty major hump, and even the "hit it with a nylon hammer" trick didn't work. Quite a bit of grinding with a bobbin sander (and a lot of elbow grease) and it's acceptable. Very glad I only need to do that once.


Waste of time. No need to flatten the back as long as the cap iron fits well at the edge. Flattening is a bit of a pointless fashion with the new sharpeners.


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## David C (12 Dec 2015)

Well Leonard Lee and countless others disagree with you.

Leonard's book has photos to prove it.

The quality of an edge is the product of the meeting of two surfaces. 

If the back is rubbish the edge will be rubbish.

The "new sharpeners" are a figment of your feverish imagination.

David Charlesworth


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## Beau (12 Dec 2015)

To be fair Jacob said it didn't need to be flat but didn't' say it wasn't polished to the same degree as the hone. Personally think honing the back with a flattened blade is far easier job but hay ho.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2015)

David C":3t8uc4ub said:


> ....
> The quality of an edge is the product of the meeting of two surfaces.


Yes but only AT the edge. It doesn't matter too much what's going on further away


> If the back is rubbish the edge will be rubbish.


Why? There is no particular logic in this.


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## ED65 (12 Dec 2015)

I think a little more detail might be beneficial here:


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2015)

ED65":exerx5tb said:


> I think a little more detail might be beneficial here:


Yes exactly! And it doesn't even need to flat - it can be rounded, or have a back bevel etc. As long as the cap iron fits and the edge itself is OK.


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## D_W (12 Dec 2015)

David C":12gjpa4e said:


> Well Leonard Lee and countless others disagree with you.
> 
> Leonard's book has photos to prove it.
> 
> ...



I've noticed on irons that the only ones that have trouble getting a good edge (whether they are polished hard or not) are those that are out of whack enough that the finish stone cannot push a wire edge back toward the bevel when working the back. 

I have experimented, as I said on other threads, I learned to sharpen from your video and followed the method to the dotted i's and crossed t's. But since then, I have prepared irons in planes and chisels while intentionally leaving the back a bit short as long as it was flat enough to affect the wire edge, and I haven't noticed a great deal of difference in the level of sharpness as long as the wire edge is completely removed. 

That is, hypothetically if I left the relatively fine mill finish on a good piece of steel or a decently made vintage iron (as opposed to something like the new stanley irons with big mill marks on them), I don't know if someone could tell which plane has the black flattened if I prepared two. 

It does require a fine abrasive to remove the wire edge without having the back worked. 

I have seen other people write on it (bob rozaieski comes to mind). For a beginner, it's safer to polish the back to the edge, because there will be no judgement needed in knowing what's a problem and what's not a problem. 

I may indulge myself later and make a video of this at some point, but I don't know if I want to encourage people who don't know enough yet about sharpening to start asserting that you don't need to polish the back of a tool (because that's what someone will say, even if only 3 people watch one of my videos).

On something like a straight razor, though, this would not be acceptable. I was not aware of just how sharp and properly prepared something like a straight razor needs to be until I started shaving with them. But polishing one side of the bevel, as long as the wire edge can be removed, will very easily shave hair and do something like take a 1/2 thousandth shaving. I won't be able to prove that until I make another plane, because I don't have an iron in any plane that hasn't had the back worked.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2015)

D_W":17u9g025 said:


> .........
> I've noticed on irons that the only ones that have trouble getting a good edge (whether they are polished hard or not) are those that are out of whack enough that the finish stone cannot push a wire edge back toward the bevel when working the back. ......


You just have to lift it a touch - effectively putting a very shallow bevel on it. No point in flattening the whole face. All the old plane irons I've looked at are done that way - never a flat faced one to be seen, still less a polished one.


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## D_W (12 Dec 2015)

Jacob":3b3vnte2 said:


> D_W":3b3vnte2 said:
> 
> 
> > .........
> ...



Yeah, and a lot of moulding plane irons done that way that I've gotten a hold of, precisely enough that I doubt it was by accident. 

I have seen george wilson for years refer to lifting the iron only just on the back when finishing it. I know of no finer maker of anything. 

I err on the safe side and bias pressure instead of lifting, but no longer polish the back of an iron to a bright polish on a newly acquired plane. If had a plane where a tiny lift would do it, I would do that (I don't at this point).


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## sploo (12 Dec 2015)

ED65":3hjwnhhz said:


> I think a little more detail might be beneficial here:


Yea, sorry I should have been more clear; what I meant was that the back of the iron was convex such that it was very difficult to flatten the tip. I had to grind the area behind the tip before I could persuade the tip to flatten on even the most coarse grit I had. Not that hard with a chisel, but it took a while on a plane iron. Hard work, but you only need to do it once. Exactly as your photo above.


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## David C (12 Dec 2015)

Jacob has not been paying enough attention.

Many authors recommend just a 1/4 " or even 3/16" of flat polished back, adjacent to the edge of a plane blade. In fact anything continuous across the width will do.

Fit of cap iron is one reason.

Quality of edge is another, and this relates to correct polishing off of wire edge. Something which did not happen readily on a "fine" India stone. Hence the crude methods for tearing off the wire edge and subsequent stropping.

Of course there is logic. Think of a toothing blade. Get Thee to the library and look at the electron microscope photos in Leonard Lee's book "Sharpening".

David


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## D_W (12 Dec 2015)

I have that book already. If that was for me, I understand more about sharpening than you may think, and I have a microscope in my storage area that i've used to examine results. 

I forgot, I do have a coarsely made buck iron, one of the ones that are sold at department stores here for $3. I'll do exactly what I suggested above, and sharpen only the bevel side, unless it is extremely coarsely made and then I may sharpen the back with a medium india and leave it there and work on the bevel side. 

I guarantee it will leave a bright surface on wood. 

I'm not advocating that for beginners. I'll tell you my sharpening method - oilstones with only the bevel side worked by a jasper and then stropped on bare leather only. Put your bets in at Lloyds.


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## D_W (12 Dec 2015)

OK, i did it. The mill marks are too deep on the iron (some sort of coarse rotary finish) to not do anything to it at all, but I did not touch the back of the iron with anything finer than an india stone. I used washita, jasper, leather strop (no abrasive) on the bevel side. After removing the wire edge, I used the jasper again on the bevel side in case the burr came off nastily on the first go around (jasper cuts only just and doesn't make much of a burr, just as fine compounds would not).

Not a public video, so I'm not going to add annotations where I chose words poorly, people on here are smart (experienced) enough to figure it out. 

My contention here is that (I'm agreeing with jacob) a bellied vintage iron would have been sharpened somehow to get that belly, probably on an india stone or something finer. It's not necessary to flatten and polish those irons, even for finishing work. It's just a pain not to be able to get to the wire edge laying the iron on the stone - inconvenience, but not necessity.

I also never finish the back of a new iron further than either india or washita these days (usually washita), even if it's going to be used for finish planing (with no scraping or sanding to follow it), there is very very little difference in initial sharpness because of it and the difference in finish is practically imperceptible. 

(The $3 buck brothers irons with a sandpaperish finish on the back, I guess it's paint with abrasive solids in it - they really adjust like rubbish, though. They grip the frog like sandpaper. No clue why they do that - rust prevention maybe. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=3LSehglaQ4k


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## sploo (13 Dec 2015)

D_W":1w5an5ea said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=3LSehglaQ4k


Interesting. Thanks David.

You also caught me out; I thought my daughter had woken up, before I paused the video and realised the noise stopped :wink:


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## D_W (13 Dec 2015)

One follow-up to the case I did above. 

I left the india finish on the back of the iron, but replaced the jasper with a horse butt strop with oil and dursol on it (similar to autosol, same company). The results are nothing short of spectacular. The dursol works better than the jasper when you can't work both sides of the iron - it removes the wire edge on the leather without ever touching leather to the back. Just 10 or 15 strokes on the bevel side and the wire edge is gone. 

It's very difficult to get the camera to look at shiny wood the way we do, so it didn't really focus on the surface that well except on the reflection of the cord from the turning saw in the background. 

(wood is cherry).

http://s16.postimg.org/yjd8jnxdv/20151212_192530.jpg


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2015)

David C":2if1t195 said:


> ....
> 
> Many authors recommend just a 1/4 " or even 3/16" of flat polished back, adjacent to the edge of a plane blade. In fact anything continuous across the width will do.
> 
> ...


That's it. No need to flatten the whole face. You've got it Dave.


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## sploo (13 Dec 2015)

Jacob":hav1zv6u said:


> David C":hav1zv6u said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...


If I'm honest, I probably got less than 1/8" with the #4 1/2 iron, but it does go all the way across so it's good enough for now.


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## bugbear (13 Dec 2015)

D_W":6nwczkqc said:


> OK, i did it. The mill marks are too deep on the iron (some sort of coarse rotary finish) to not do anything to it at all, but I did not touch the back of the iron with anything finer than an _india stone_.



An India stone is as fine as you need to go, both bevel and back, I've heard it said.

BugBear


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## bugbear (13 Dec 2015)

D_W":7327u6nk said:


> I used washita, jasper



What's the "jasper" stone? Not one I've seen listed in the older sources I have.

The only Jasper I know is a highly variable, semi-precious stone, with no abrasive properties I'm aware of.

EDIT; found it (and you, I'm guessing, DaveW  )

http://straightrazorplace.com/hones/111 ... -jade.html

That's some obsessive stuff, there.

BugBear


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## bugbear (13 Dec 2015)

Jacob":3d47iito said:


> David C":3d47iito said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



There's a well known author who proposes only flattening edge-of-the-back
of a plane iron. and has a technique for doing so, simply and repeatedly.

You should look him up. :wink: 

BugBear


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## matt_southward (13 Dec 2015)

Haha, yes - I did wonder that too: _lifting it a bit_ is remarkably similar to DC's _ruler trick._ I wonder why Jacob didn't just recommend that?


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2015)

matt_southward":24yhp2nz said:


> Haha, yes - I did wonder that too: _lifting it a bit_ is remarkably similar to DC's _ruler trick._ I wonder why Jacob didn't just recommend that?


Because "lifting it a bit" is easier and you don't need a ruler. You could call it "the without a ruler trick".
It's what everybody has always done - from just increasing the pressure towards the edge, to a positive lift.

The new sharpeners tend to reinvent the wheel without necessarily improving it.


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## matt_southward (13 Dec 2015)

Fair enough, but I don't think the ruler trick is particularly difficult and I can't see how it's harder to do it that way, over 'lifting it a bit'. What's a _bit_? At least the ruler offers some consistency - particularly for some one new to sharpening. The general principle certainly helped me with some of my out-of-flat plane irons - I'm not a fan of wasting time flattening steel that doesn't need to be flat!


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## woodbrains (13 Dec 2015)

Hello,

Just lifting it a bit, prevents cap iron effect, since the cap cannot be put close enough to the cutting edge. The ruler trick offers consistency so a longer back bevel can be produced, into which the cap iron can be set and therefore close enough to have a cap iron effect. If the iron back is flattened as far back as the cap iron sits, all is fine, lifting it a bit is lazy, and if extended to chisels too, a blooming PITA. Sometimes just doing something properly once saves a lot of trouble subsequently.

Mike.


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2015)

If by "lazy" you mean easier then yes that's it.
Why a PITA with chisels? Nearly all old chisels and plane blades end up slightly convex due to honing the face without going for the full flattening. Nobody found it a problem in the past.
Much of the new sharpening consists of fussy "correct solutions" to things which aren't really problems. In fact the word "correct" crops up a lot. Or "doing it properly". Needing to do it just once is also a delusion.


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## woodbrains (14 Dec 2015)

Hello,

A paring chisel with a back bevel? That would be a fairly useless tool. A dovetail chisel chopping to a knife line with a back bevel, similarly useless. As regarding finding lots of old chisels with back bevels, so what? If we look to old tools for how they have been looked after, then we would have to conclude they were mostly used for opening cans of paint! Any makers I know actually USING tools have no back bevels on chisels and surely craftsmen who are active are the examples we should be looking to, for how tools are actually used. I cannot think of any one else who says chisels with a back bevel are anything but a nuisance. Even if one was to put up with an old tool that had one, certainly we wouldn't introduce back bevels to tools that didn't have them, because we were too lazy to keep the back flat on the stone. 

Cap iron effect is still not possible with 'lifting it a bit' back bevels, I say again. Are there any other ways we can find to disadvantage ourselves simply by being lazy? Flatten the blades back once and it is done for the life of the tool and are techniques our never handicapped by the tools condition.

Mike.


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## David C (14 Dec 2015)

In Jacob's world of joinery, all cabinetmaking rules are turned on their head.

There is no logic.

Bellied blades come from hollow stones, poor technique or both.

David


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## D_W (14 Dec 2015)

Well, they are built into some high end japanese chisels, too, with the inclination of giving a skilled user the ability to bring a chisel out of a cut if it's wanting to dive in the cut. 

I don't have any love for such things on chisels, but when every single vintage iron I've seen is not mirror polished to the edge, it makes me wonder. 

I've seen other people who have made a fair bit of nice stuff mention that they don't work the backs of their irons, which is sort of the same notion. If the back of an iron was bellied some and difficult to work (but not mill finished, etc), I've already seen (and been surprised) by how well working fine compound on the bevel side avoids the formation of a wire edge and how bright the surface (kind of surprised by that). 

We go around in circles a little bit with this, but I'd question if sharpness isn't the issue (and I tried my buck brothers iron without even removing the mill marks, and there was no problem with sharpness), and there's an argument that finishing off the plane isn't done to begin with, what purpose does perfect uniformity serve?

(I finish off the plane fairly often, so the answer is pretty easy for me. I don't need the back of a plane iron to be mirror finished, but I do need it to be uniform - washita is just fine, and I doubt anyone could tell the difference between an iron done on fine india on the back or on a washita and then compound on the bevel side of either of those, and one that was sharpened on both sides to a mirror polish with a 2 micron synthetic waterstone. It is no challenge with the former to get shavings in the range of half a thousandth).


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## G S Haydon (14 Dec 2015)

Nice to see the humble India getting in airing in your video David and your postings. I think it's terrific value stone. As your video pointed out the surface finish was excellent!


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## D_W (14 Dec 2015)

G S Haydon":369zr36v said:


> Nice to see the humble India getting in airing in your video David and your postings. I think it's terrific value stone. As your video pointed out the surface finish was excellent!



The more I use the old stuff, the more I like it more than the new stuff!!!

If I was more ambitious, I'd do a surface comparison with all of the various stones I have before I sell most of them off (and post it on youtube). I've had a huge swath of new synthetic stones, but I think they solve problems that have been created in the last 30 years - like using a whole bunch of various diemaking steels in irons in chisels, something that doesn't really benefit an experienced user at all. Such a comparison might convince some beginners to spend a little bit less on sharpening, and avoid some of the "wondersteel" fad.

The strange thing with the compound on the bevel and india on the back side is that the surface is a little better with the cap set close and a shaving a bit thicker (it's clearer and brighter). I assumed it would always be best with a half thousandth to a thousandth set of shavings (something I don't ever do), but in this case, it's not. 

The picture does not do justice to show just how shiny that surface is - the camera refuses to see that shine, it either contrasts it out, or focuses on something that reflects on it, but the clarity on the string reflected if looked at closely is a good indication, even if the shine of the reflection doesn't show up everywhere. I was a bit shocked - hair shaving wasn't strained as much as the video, either (even the video is brighter than the camera makes it look. No clue how to get a picture of that shine.


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## Cheshirechappie (14 Dec 2015)

D_W":2mwvz2v1 said:


> Well, they are built into some high end japanese chisels, too, with the inclination of giving a skilled user the ability to bring a chisel out of a cut if it's wanting to dive in the cut.
> 
> I don't have any love for such things on chisels, but when every single vintage iron I've seen is not mirror polished to the edge, it makes me wonder.
> 
> ...




I think the argument about polishing both sides of the edge to the same quality of finish is more about the finish it imparts to the workpiece than about sharpness. Taken to the slightly silly extreme, a toothing plane iron can be very sharp, but the finish won't win any prizes. The same applies to plane irons with a poor finish to the flat side; any unevenness of surface will produce a slightly ragged edge, which will reflect in the surface imparted to the wood.

There's a strong element of horses for courses, of course. It won't matter a jot on a jack plane iron set up for heavy stock removal, and probably won't matter much on a try plane iron, either - attaining the right dimension being more important than attaining a polish-ready finish during stock preparation. However, for the 'best' smoothing plane, an edge that's both sharp AND smooth will achieve the best workpiece finish, free of scratches and lines. Also, it's a matter of some importance to a fine cabinetmaker, but maybe rather less to a joiner who's work will be painted after installation.


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## D_W (14 Dec 2015)

I guess the question is what's fine enough, and do both sides need to be the same. I think the answer is it's variable and no, they don't need to be finished to the same degree as long as there isn't a mill finish on an iron and the wire edge is gone. 

I can't do a good job of showing how highly polished the wood is on the picture link I attached, but safe to say that with an india honed back of the iron, and a compound honed front of the iron, it is a brighter surface than I ever get off of a washita plane iron on both sides (and wood planed with a washita iron and then waxed will always show a reflection on the surface of everything sitting on the piece that's made, a clear reflection). 

From a functional standpoint, I guess what i learned fiddling with this is that if you can't reach the wire edge because an iron is out of flat, use compound on the bevel side because it has the ability to remove the wire edge completely without ever touching the back of the iron. This method would sharpen a jack iron leaving the back of the plane iron mill finish - to a degree that was far sharper than a jack ever needs to be. 

Several years ago, I stopped polishing the back of the iron before I use it, but I do finish it on a washita stone (so that's like a step short of a polish), and once in a great while, only to the india stone, figuring that by the time I've resharpened the iron a half dozen times, the washita will have removed the india stria - and it does. Cap iron use has eliminated the need for anything keener than washita, and perhaps less than that is required by a long shot if a good surface finish is all that's desired. Uniformity is more important (so no lines). But the edge on the older oil and water hardening steels seems to stay uniform better off of a washita than anything else (better than india or modern waterstones). No clue why, but probably for different reasons from both stones. 

Of all of the modern "musts" in woodworking, I wonder how many are "musts" just because it makes it easier to teach beginners. It's more curiosity than anything. I'll use my $3 iron for a while and see how well it holds up after it's been honed a dozen times or so. It's probably about as good as an O1 iron that I've made once you get past the initial part, and I didn't have to drill, file and sweat to put it in the plane (though the slot for the adjuster has an incredible amount of burring that had to be stoned off. I thought at first it was the sandpaperish finish fooling with the adjustment in the video, but it was, in fact, the burrs in the slot grabbing the adjuster wheel on the plane). 

(I should add, the iron that I scratch made also cost three times as much in materials as the BB irons that are sold here cost finished. A $3 iron is nice to experiment, you can't lose much if you abuse it).


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## sploo (14 Dec 2015)

D_W":jgg980f0 said:


> The picture does not do justice to show just how shiny that surface is - the camera refuses to see that shine, it either contrasts it out, or focuses on something that reflects on it, but the clarity on the string reflected if looked at closely is a good indication, even if the shine of the reflection doesn't show up everywhere. I was a bit shocked - hair shaving wasn't strained as much as the video, either (even the video is brighter than the camera makes it look. No clue how to get a picture of that shine.


Manual focus + manual exposure settings, and a lot of care in choosing your angles and lighting, basically (but it's certainly not easy). If the reflection catches the light it'll essentially be as bright as trying to get an image of a light source _and_ detail in the rest of the room in one exposure (i.e. way too much dynamic range for the camera to capture). If you wanted to go crazy, then set everything up fixed (i.e. camera on a tripod), bracket a set of shots, and bring into some HDR software.


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## D_W (14 Dec 2015)

bugbear":3adr09w6 said:


> D_W":3adr09w6 said:
> 
> 
> > I used washita, jasper
> ...



Without a diamond hone, jasper will cut softer steels and do some cutting on water hardening tool steels, but not much (which makes it a good wire edge chaser). It's about 10 bucks over here in thin slabs that are used by jewelers (someone working as a faceter turned us on to it). 

If you scuff it up with a diamond hone and make a slurry of it's own particles, it's really aggressive and not as fine until it settles in again. REALLY aggressive. 

Unfortunately, the one that I used for that test was a new piece with some mill marks in it, so it can go a bit finer. It's interesting to see how fine the scratches are from the japanese stone, jasper and agate. And interesting in the shave to find out what edges look like (the little bits of flotsam on the edge before stropping with the jasper are thin foil that look bad, but don't seem to affect a shade - they are orders smaller than anything that would show up on wood). 

Safe to say, the only practical use of a jasper in woodworking or knife sharpening is as a burnisher, other stones are better on slurry and the jaspers are REALLY hard. Some steels are so soft (440a stainless type steels, etc in pocket knives) that they won't take a good edge on anything other than fine compounds....or the jasper. It's useful in those cases to burnish and consolidate an edge. And on wharncliffe type blades where it's easy to use, it's a nice follow on to an arkansas stone and very fast to use before bare leather.

The chinese agate stone is similar in role, a little different in feel. A waste of money for anything other than razors (and really, a waste of money when jasper can be had for a few bucks). The advent of diamond plates has made it so that you can get some stones that won't release particles to release particles and cut, and do it without contamination that would occur if you tried to use emery. It's made things like ultra hard japanese stones popular for razors whereas 100 years ago, the stones that were a touch softer were preferred. 

I have a little problem with sharpening stones and sharpening materials. (I still use a washita in woodworking tools, the nutty stuff is razor related where you can get a great edge and actually keep it for months, as opposed to a few plane strokes).

(I just read one of the posts, I'll wait for the critics to point out that I used the term coplanar where I should've said planar).


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2015)

David C":1mjj0y8v said:


> .......
> Bellied blades come from hollow stones, poor technique or both.
> 
> David


Slightly convex faces come from years of normal sharpening practice and matter not at all. 
Hollow stones come about from normal use and is kept to a minimum by spreading the load where possible, but doesn't really matter (within reason).
Unless generations of tool users have simply got it all wrong and only the new sharpeners have seen the light. 
"Bellied" seems to be Dave's word for it - it's not widely used apropos old tools with convex faces.


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## AndyT (14 Dec 2015)

Here's something I have learnt by reading this forum for a while.

You can achieve and maintain a sharp edge on a plane iron by using a stone which has worn concave. The iron fits into the hollow and is sharpened with a camber. The back of the iron does not need to be flat - just think about a shallow gouge - it has a curved back but can still have a sharp edge. This approach naturally suits honing by hand.

An alternative approach uses a guide to hold the iron at a consistent angle to the abrasive. Because the guide stops you following a curved surface, guided sharpening works best when all the surfaces - both sides of the iron, and the abrasive - are flat.

There is room in the world for both approaches, just as there is for people who open their boiled eggs at the big end or the little end.


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## woodbrains (14 Dec 2015)

Hello,

Concluding that a close set cap iron negates the need for the blade back to be as finely finished as the bevel, is about the worst logic I've come across. It is the meeting edge of the back and the bevel that does the cutting, the level of polish that we see is only an indicator of what that is like, since we cannot see the edge. The cut can only be as good as the edge produced by the courses stone. If we finish the bevel on whatever stone we think we need, why not use the same to do the back? Surely that is a step less. 

Typical woodworkers who expect to get a finish directly from the tool are woodcarvers. Can anyone name a woodcarver who stops sharpening on India stones or Washita? Hell no, hard Arkansas then chrome oxide on a strop more like! I wonder why they bother and why we should not? 

Mike.


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## D_W (14 Dec 2015)

Carving tools and plane irons aren't the same thing. I know someone who works professionally who finishes carving tools with slips and no chrome-ox. Most of the carvers I've asked use a powered tool and that's it (at least they claim that). 

A washita stone does very well finishing wood, as long as there's clearance. A very sharp iron is often prescribed with tiny thin shavings as a safe alternative for planes with no cap iron. 

A washita stone edge does plenty well enough when there is a cap to prevent a chip from lifting. I have never had trouble shaving hair off of my arm with a washita-finished iron that was stropped on bare leather, and I haven't had trouble getting a shaving a half thousandth from one. 

I don't generally use india stones only on plane irons, the washita is my preferred level of normal finish on the iron (quick, clean hair shaving without pulling, etc). 

I'm a bit baffled at the assumption that the cap iron doesn't relieve some of the pressure on the edge itself doing all of the tearout resistance. Uniformity with the cap iron installed is more important (so that there aren't lines on the surface). *plus* you can continue using the cap iron until the clearance has been eliminated and the plane no longer cuts without risking any significant problems with surface finish. 

I think you mean opinion rather than logic.


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## sploo (31 Dec 2015)

Continuing my education in sharpening...

From watching a few of Paul Sellers' videos on sharpening, he seems to accomplish some tasks _way_ faster (like, an order of magnitude) than I manage with my scary sharpening system (he uses diamond stones).

Just before Xmas I picked up a couple of Trend diamond stones (CR/DWS/B6/FC) on the cheap due to a manufacturing c*ck up (I believe they're supposed to be two sided in a plastic holder, but they've been glued into the holder). With a bit of brute force and ignorance, one was popped out and reversed, so I now have a coarse (360 grit) and a fine (600 grit).

The instructions claim that what would take 5-10 minutes on an oil stone will take 20 seconds on a diamond stone.

All I can say is "wow". The cutting speed is incredible. This afternoon I reground a dodgy (con_cave_ camber!) #5 1/2 plane iron by hand in a matter of minutes - the issues with the existing bevel were such that I'd definitely have needed the grinder before. I'm still finishing on the scary sharpening sheets as 600 grit obviously isn't that fine, but if/when these ones pack up I probably will invest in a set of decent diamond plates. Consider me a converted.


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## ED65 (31 Dec 2015)

sploo":1asrz5pw said:


> From watching a few of Paul Sellers' videos on sharpening, he seems to accomplish some tasks _way_ faster (like, an order of magnitude) than I manage with my scary sharpening system (he uses diamond stones).


Hardly surprising. Some of it is purely about technique, but obviously diamond is much harder and (initially at least, when the grains have the sharpest edges) even more abrasive than this alone would account for. 

Also with diamond stones you can press down HARD, much harder than you can get away with usually when using abrasive papers although this does depend to a degree on the type of paper and how it's adhered to the solid surface (PSA's hold on the support is much better than the 'water cling effect'). And films or cloths are more robust than a typical paper. But for anyone naturally a heavy-handed sharpener diamond plates are one of the two best sharpening options, the other being ceramics. Waterstones would be at the bottom of their list.



sploo":1asrz5pw said:


> This afternoon I reground a dodgy (con_cave_ camber!) #5 1/2 plane iron by hand in a matter of minutes


Just to check, the corners stuck out slightly further than the centre of the edge? That's very difficult to achieve, I wonder how they managed it!



sploo":1asrz5pw said:


> but if/when these ones pack up I probably will invest in a set of decent diamond plates.


You already have a set of decent diamond plates  

This is one of those fiver specials from eBay right? What I would do in your shoes is buy a handful of them and keep a stock. Then all you need to look for is an ultra-fine to round out your diamond sharpening gear, with one or more strops to complete the edge IF needed – with a lot of the planing you'll be doing the edge from even your 600 plate will be perfectly adequate to the task.

I'm sure you'll have read this elsewhere but in case you hadn't hoisted this in, diamond plates have a break-in period where initially they are both coarser and as a result faster, than their real grit rating. So expect that they'll both slow down somewhat once used for a while. After than they'll continue to work that way until they begin to wear out, which if you're lucky will be many years from now.


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## BearTricks (31 Dec 2015)

woodbrains":2bhlg273 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Concluding that a close set cap iron negates the need for the blade back to be as finely finished as the bevel, is about the worst logic I've come across. It is the meeting edge of the back and the bevel that does the cutting, the level of polish that we see is only an indicator of what that is like, since we cannot see the edge. The cut can only be as good as the edge produced by the courses stone. If we finish the bevel on whatever stone we think we need, why not use the same to do the back? Surely that is a step less.
> 
> ...


I carve and I go up to 8000 grit then finish with autosol on an old bit of leather. I find it far easier to get a sharp carving knife. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2015)

ED65":5qqhuu91 said:


> ..... But for anyone naturally a heavy-handed sharpener diamond plates are one of the two best sharpening options, the other being ceramics. Waterstones would be at the bottom of their list......


You can work hard on an oil stone too. They are the cheapest option of all and last for many years. 
They do need refreshing every now and then as the surface gets clogged up. I use a 3m Diapad - slightly bendy so it will follow the surface of a worn stone.


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## sploo (31 Dec 2015)

ED65":xck9d9dz said:


> Just to check, the corners stuck out slightly further than the centre of the edge? That's very difficult to achieve, I wonder how they managed it!


The edge itself was flat, it was the bevel as viewed from the side that was concave in places. From looking at it I'd guess a relatively small grinding wheel - the middle third of the bevel was concave. Ironically the edge was actually pretty sharp. I'd usually have fought with my cheap and nasty grinder but it was so much nicer just to fix it by hand.




ED65":xck9d9dz said:


> You already have a set of decent diamond plates
> 
> This is one of those fiver specials from eBay right? What I would do in your shoes is buy a handful of them and keep a stock. Then all you need to look for is an ultra-fine to round out your diamond sharpening gear, with one or more strops to complete the edge IF needed – with a lot of the planing you'll be doing the edge from even your 600 plate will be perfectly adequate to the task.
> 
> I'm sure you'll have read this elsewhere but in case you hadn't hoisted this in, diamond plates have a break-in period where initially they are both coarser and as a result faster, than their real grit rating. So expect that they'll both slow down somewhat once used for a while. After than they'll continue to work that way until they begin to wear out, which if you're lucky will be many years from now.


Yep - the fiver special (out of stock now). The one plate isn't particularly flat and they're (literally) only just wide enough for a 2 3/8" wide plane iron, so something bigger would be good.


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## ED65 (1 Jan 2016)

Jacob":1m0rd8qj said:


> You can work hard on an oil stone too.


Yes, but. I had to generalise because oilstones can vary so much. They're my primarily sharpening media, but I have gouged the synthetics once or twice when working quickly or focussing attention on a corner when working towards a camber or repairing a slight skew. This is impossible to do on a diamond plate and probably nearly impossible on a ceramic stone which is why I said they were the two _best _options for the heavy handed. 

I haven't used many natural oilstones but most I have used are extremely tough, however, they're not as commonly bought these days. 



Jacob":1m0rd8qj said:


> They are the cheapest option of all


When's the last time you bought an oilstone Jacob?  

They are not the cheapest of all by a long shot especially if you want to include natural stones as an option.

There are cheap oilstones but the only ones really worth having are in a different price bracket.


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## ED65 (1 Jan 2016)

sploo":1yu2phgo said:


> The edge itself was flat, it was the bevel as viewed from the side that was concave in places. From looking at it I'd guess a relatively small grinding wheel - the middle third of the bevel was concave.


In case this was it is exactly the reason I wanted to check, that's not actually a problem and you could have left it. 

Some or all of the concavity from a grinding wheel can remain after honing, it doesn't seem to affect performance in any way. It is _theoretically _weaker, but as covered in one of the threads recently (possibly this thread, can't remember!) in practice hollow-ground bevels don't seem to fail almost ever.



sploo":1yu2phgo said:


> The one plate isn't particularly flat


Bummer. Might be worth coming up with a jig to clamp down opposing corners (close left and far right would suit a rightie).



sploo":1yu2phgo said:


> and they're (literally) *only just wide enough for a 2 3/8" wide plane iron*, so something bigger would be good.


Long tradition of this  Skew the iron, or work sideways.


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## sploo (1 Jan 2016)

ED65":1juhp013 said:


> Some or all of the concavity from a grinding wheel can remain after honing, it doesn't seem to affect performance in any way. It is _theoretically _weaker, but as covered in one of the threads recently (possibly this thread, can't remember!) in practice hollow-ground bevels don't seem to fail almost ever.


It was only across the middle third of the blade, and not particularly even, so I suspect that once I'd done a few sharpenings I'd have ended up with a hollow on the front edge - hence I removed it. I tend to try to do the donkey work when I get a new plane/chisel, so life is easier from there.



ED65":1juhp013 said:


> Bummer. Might be worth coming up with a jig to clamp down opposing corners (close left and far right would suit a rightie).


Now that it's been popped out I think it's straightened up a bit (I suspect it wasn't glued in very flat).



ED65":1juhp013 said:


> Long tradition of this  Skew the iron, or work sideways.


I tried sideways across the stone, but you don't get much room, and I like to move over a longer arc to camber the bevel. It works ok along the length - I just need to not be too clumsy and pay a bit of attention to what I'm doing :wink:


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## ED65 (1 Jan 2016)

sploo":1x117loj said:


> It was only across the middle third of the blade, and not particularly even, so I suspect that once I'd done a few sharpenings I'd have ended up with a hollow on the front edge - hence I removed it.


Unless I'm being dense your sharpening media would have bridged the hollow, so it would have taken down the high spots and left the hollow alone until you got down to that level across the bevel many sharpenings down the road. 



sploo":1x117loj said:


> I tried sideways across the stone, but you don't get much room, and I like to move over a longer arc to camber the bevel.


Oh sorry I was thinking of a different method entirely. It's a different story if sharpening like Paul Sellers where the whole bevel is worked every time.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2016)

ED65":3pvt785b said:


> ......
> Some or all of the concavity from a grinding wheel can remain after honing, it doesn't seem to affect performance in any way. It is _theoretically _weaker, but as covered in one of the threads recently (possibly this thread, can't remember!) in practice hollow-ground bevels don't seem to fail almost ever.....


There are degrees of hollow grinding. You could grind to a very fine and very weak edge if you chose. 
It isn't good with your normal Bailey thin blade either - which is rather the point of the Bailey design; thin blade making (machine) grinding unnecessary


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## sploo (1 Jan 2016)

ED65":wn95u2kj said:


> Unless I'm being dense your sharpening media would have bridged the hollow, so it would have taken down the high spots and left the hollow alone until you got down to that level across the bevel many sharpenings down the road.


Difficult to explain without pictures (which I don't have now that I've re-ground it) but yes, you're probably right. The problem is that I get small amounts of time on an occasional basis - i.e. if I get half a day to fettle and sharpen a new (old) plane then I'll use it, as from there it might be weeks before I get time (job + family). As such, many of my jobs tend to be a "just got 5 minutes" type thing, and so if I found myself with something less than optimal (like an odd edge due to finally getting to that weird concavity) I'd be stuffed re my "5 minute" windows; until I got time to do the job properly again. Hence I tend to go at something fully when I have the time windows.



ED65":wn95u2kj said:


> Oh sorry I was thinking of a different method entirely. It's a different story if sharpening like Paul Sellers where the whole bevel is worked every time.


Yep - Seller's style. Not saying that's optimal, but it seems to work for me (having tried using a honing guide and found it slow and frustrating - but then my guide is pretty cr*ppy).


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## ED65 (1 Jan 2016)

sploo":37fpjta0 said:


> Yep - Seller's style. Not saying that's optimal, but it seems to work for me


No need to convince me, I mostly sharpen his way. 

I've only recently started experimenting with secondary bevels* on plane irons after finally hoisting in that honing angle almost doesn't matter. My goal is always to try to get back to work in 30 seconds or less and if there is a significant wear bevel on the iron a secondary bevel is one good way to do it that fast, not that working the entire convex bevel lags that much behind.

*Which I used to be firmly against on principle, before I learned that they're not an evil Spectre plot designed to produce weak edges


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## beech1948 (1 Jan 2016)

You have to laugh out loud.

Here is poor old sploo trying to get some advise and what do we get. The same three or four old codgers battling it out with innuendo, rudeness, snarkiness about the same old stuff. It gets a bit boring to have to read through this "sh*t" to see the writings of others. Time for you three or four to give it a rest for a while or better yet a year or two.

I am 68.
In 1959 I went anxiously to my first secondary school.
In my first week I was introduced to the woodwork shop. Given the safety talk, shown where everything was and told we would learn to sharpen planes and chisels at the next lesson in two days.

Two days later I was shown how to sharpen by hand without the benefit of a jig by a timeserved pro who along with 12 mates came in for that day to give all the new intake some 1:1 guidance. All ( as my memory goes eschewed jigs). Rounded bevels were abundant, angles were approximate from 30 degrees down to about 23 degrees depending on the pupil. Secondary bevels were about 5 degrees more than the primary ones or maybe 7 or 8 degrees.

All blades could cut end grain well, all chisels would cut and depth into a mortice easily. I learned from my timeserved pro that when it needed an extra push it was time to sharpen again.....4 or 5 strokes on the secondary bevel, clean the swarf off and proceed because time was money.

For the next 8 years that is what I did and then I moved onto University, a BSc and eventually a Phd and to work in the fledgeling IT industry I left some 14 yrs ago.

In all of that time I have not forgotten how to sharpen freehand at speed and with a lot of acuracy. Not too shabby for 56 yrs of woodwork experience.

I now find that an injury some 18 yrs ago to my left arm has made it too weak to correctly hold and sharpen small sized chisels and narrow plane blades. I use the Veritas jig, which works wonderfully for the narrower blades and no doubt will use it more as I age further.

The only reason people today use jigs so frequently is that no one showed them a better way. Especially true of amateurs.

The arguements over jig or non-jig use are pretty stupid and back to the three or four gents mentioned above rather childlike.

Whatever works is what counts for the amateur. Often its not time critical it is afterall supposed to be a fun hobby.

BUT, why don't those who so strongly argue and theorise about sharpening simply offer a few days each year to teach a couple of rookies for free. Could be freehand; could be jig based. Think of it as passing on your knowledge just like the timeserved pros did for me in 2x2 hour lessons.

It might be better to do something and change things than to argue like kids over technique when we need practical methods to be demonstrated by one man to the next. TELL----SHOW----DO!

Anyone want to open up their workshop for a Sarurday am/pm/evening for a couple of hours by appointment.

I did my first effort 3 weeks on a visit to London at a Mens Shed in south London.


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## beech1948 (1 Jan 2016)

PS,

I'm not saying that the three or four old antagonists are wrong simply that it is upto the user to choose his/her method not you.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2016)

ED65":l88o6g9r said:


> ...
> 
> 
> Jacob":l88o6g9r said:
> ...


Used them from about 1955. I've still got (and use) my own first ever (double sided) from about 1969. I got another (finer) in 1982 which I use most however. I've acquired a few more - all 2nd hand 2 or 3 quid each. They last forever and cost f.a.
Lifetime oil stone cost (calculated roughly on the amount of stone used at cost) perhaps £10 or so? They've all got many years (lifetimes) of use left in them.

PS if anybody wants to drop in here for a demo they are welcome. PM first!


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## sploo (1 Jan 2016)

beech1948":2henqe7o said:


> Here is poor old sploo trying to get some advise and what do we get. The same three or four old codgers battling it out with innuendo, rudeness, snarkiness about the same old stuff. It gets a bit boring to have to read through this "sh*t" to see the writings of others. Time for you three or four to give it a rest for a while or better yet a year or two.


TBH I've found this all very useful; and indeed I did get a couple of generous offers for sharpening and plane setup training. One was very useful, the other offer I haven't taken up simply due to lack of tine (but would like to at some point).

In terms of argument; this pales into mild banter vs what you'll get on an audiophile forum 

My journey is basically failure with an oilstone, getting success with a scary sharpening kit and a honing guide, finding I could hand sharpen "Sellers style" (and with it worrying less about the exact angle), and now experimenting with cheap diamond plates. Oh and using honing compound on a leather.

What I should do is go back to the oilstone to prove (to myself) my suspicion that my failures where technique rather than gear related.

Basically, ask 10 guys how to sharpen and you'll get 11 different answers. All that matters is you find one that works for you, and perhaps be willing to try alternatives.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2016)

sploo":27mm0rqw said:


> beech1948":27mm0rqw said:
> 
> 
> > Here is poor old sploo trying to get some advise and what do we get. The same three or four old codgers battling it out with innuendo, rudeness, snarkiness about the same old stuff. It gets a bit boring to have to read through this "sh*t" to see the writings of others. Time for you three or four to give it a rest for a while or better yet a year or two.
> ...


Oil stones need refreshing. It makes a huge difference. Well flooded with white spirit or thin oil; quick pass with steel pan scrubber, coarse wet n dry, or in my case 3m Diapad. This will also bring old dried up stones back to life


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## lurker (1 Jan 2016)

Beech,

Maybe you wrongly assume people here don't help others in the way you suggest.

I count a number of people here as mates who have been generous with their time and shown me how to do things.

But for those who can't travel then threads like these are invaluable.


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## lurker (1 Jan 2016)

Sploo 
You have learned a lesson we all eventually "get"

It's a bout technique not kit.

Jacob can be an old git but his over riding message is that you don't need to spend a fortune on fancy toys to achieve fine results.


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## sploo (1 Jan 2016)

Jacob":3chsjqm4 said:


> Oil stones need refreshing. It makes a huge difference. Well flooded with white spirit or thin oil; quick pass with steel pan scrubber, coarse wet n dry, or in my case 3m Diapad. This will also bring old dried up stones back to life


I suspect my oil stone doesn't need bringing back to life as it's hardly ever been used. It may need using properly in the first place mind. I only ever squeezed a bit of 3-in-1 on it. Given your comment "dried up" should I be rather more liberal my the use of fossilised dinosaur juice?



lurker":3chsjqm4 said:


> Sploo
> You have learned a lesson we all eventually "get"
> 
> It's a bout technique not kit.


Yep, but I still want a set of 15 diamond plates, 3 honing guides, a Tormek, and enough leather strops to start my own leiderhosen factory. Or am I weird? :wink: 



lurker":3chsjqm4 said:


> Jacob can be an old git but his over riding message is that you don't need to spend a fortune on fancy toys to achieve fine results.





beech1948":3chsjqm4 said:


> Here is poor old sploo trying to get some advise and what do we get.


I wish you guys would stop using the "o" word... with me just having just passed into an age that I can no longer call myself a young 'un and all that...


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2016)

sploo":356is2pc said:


> .....
> I suspect my oil stone doesn't need bringing back to life as it's hardly ever been used. It may need using properly in the first place mind. I only ever squeezed a bit of 3-in-1 on it. Given your comment "dried up" should I be rather more liberal my the use of fossilised dinosaur juice?......


Yes flood it on - work in a pool, not a smear. Wipe it off afterwards so it doesn't dry and dump all the swarf. A magnet helps remove swarf too.


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## sploo (1 Jan 2016)

Jacob":1ksgj294 said:


> sploo":1ksgj294 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...


Thanks. Will give it a go. May be a few days now until I get a time window again, but I will try.


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## G S Haydon (1 Jan 2016)

I'll echo Jacob, if anyone in my locality wants a hand with a bit of basic sharpening just drop me a PM.


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## sploo (1 Jan 2016)

G S Haydon":30xsx1ei said:


> I'll echo Jacob, if anyone in my locality wants a hand with a bit of basic sharpening just drop me a PM.


It does occur to me that a separate sticky thread with the details of members (and their rough location) would be a good way for members to "advertise" their willingness to help out in this way. Especially as that may allow people to arrange times in (small) groups, as I assume it'd be easier for a member to show 2-3 guys the ropes at once, rather than doing 3 separate sessions.


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## ED65 (2 Jan 2016)

Jacob":24p8eivg said:


> Used them from about 1955. I've still got (and use) my own first ever (double sided) from about 1969. I got another (finer) in 1982 which I use most however.


My point: nothing recently. If you'd like a shock you should look up what they're asking for an India these days. 

Good stones do indeed last practically indefinitely. But unless you buy secondhand they are very far from cheap and I was of course referring to buying new.


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## ED65 (2 Jan 2016)

sploo":1irz84ym said:


> What I should do is go back to the oilstone to prove (to myself) my suspicion that my failures where technique rather than gear related.


You'll very likely get much better results now that you have more sharpening under your belt, that's virtually universal. 

So technique is probably the main thing, but the oilstone itself does matter a great deal as well. There's an unbelievable difference between a Norton and some no-name grey combo stone out of China that sheds grit like cats shed hair!


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## sploo (2 Jan 2016)

ED65":ibytz4pv said:


> You'll very likely get much better results now that you have more sharpening under your belt, that's virtually universal.
> 
> So technique is probably the main thing, but the oilstone itself does matter a great deal as well. There's an unbelievable difference between a Norton and some no-name grey combo stone out of China that sheds grit like cats shed hair!


Funnily enough, it is a Norton (two sided). Maybe 15-20 years old.


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## ED65 (2 Jan 2016)

Good stuff then. You might need to check for flat, but Nortons are the cream of the crop of modern synthetic oilstones.


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