# Planning Permission - any cautionary tales of woe and despondency?



## Pallet Fancier (5 Jan 2021)

I'm working on a couple of different ideas for a big shed workshop of about 20 square meters, internally. One of them has just less than 2.5m of height, under the rafters, (2.45m exactly) which obviously puts the roof itself at or around 3m. Because it will sit less than 1m from the boundary, this falls foul of permitted development which limits total height to 2.5m. 

My other design has a 2.5m roof. The 3m design came about while trying to satisfy a long list of alternate uses which aren't relevant here (they're all about various different uses for the space other than/in addition to a workshop by me and other members of the household). Basically, the 2.5m design is a compromise. The 3m design is desirable.

Obviously, planning permission is a legal requirement for the 3m design. So, what I'm wondering is what people's experiences are of getting it, and what problems/delays/expenses did they encounter that they might have avoided with some warning, ahead of time?

I'm leery of the process because I know of several people, locally, who've had a torrid time with getting PP. Even before covid, delays were frequently measured in months and inspectors often described as jobsworths. A lot of people, including some I know in construction, have shaken their heads solemnly and whispered "don't bother". Well... that's one approach... and you didn't read that from me!

I also want to get mains supply into it at some future point. As a matter of curiosity, do you need to have PP in order to get the electrical installation certified for insurance purposes?

Cheers


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2021)

Besides anything else if it needs PP that'll be asked for if you ever sell the property.


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## Sandyn (5 Jan 2021)

Is that 2.5m from the ground, or building height? ie, can you go downwards? Does the 1m from boundary allow an apex roof which is no higher than 2.5m at the 1m distance, but could be higher in the middle? Can it be higher at one side than the other. Put the low side inside the 1m distance? I found the local planning department to be extremely helpful in finding ways to avoid issues, so worth discussing with them first.
I had a problem with an internal door in the plans. There was a step at the door and the inspector said a window would need be fitted in the door (fire door). Then a moment later, he told me that if the door opened inwards, not outwards, it would be OK. Problem solved!


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## AJB Temple (5 Jan 2021)

I would be inclined to go for planning consent, but probably for something rather more than you actually want, so that you have something to give way on. It is now much harder to establish relationships with planning departments, but can be done with a little effort and expense. If you can persuade them to advise you how to alter it to get their backing, then that is ideal. They will know you have a fall back, so they cannot fully prevent development. 

No one will check planning consent when certifying electrical works.


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## Blackswanwood (5 Jan 2021)

In my experience people who work in Planning Departments are okay to deal with. They are overworked as councils have imposed cutbacks but do their best to do a difficult job. Their job is to apply the rules - that doesn’t in my view make them a jobsworth. 

The timeframes for gaining Planning Permission are prescribed and it will only be complex or contentious submissions that don’t get resolved in eight weeks.


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2021)

Our experience was that the planners and building control were really helpful as long as we clearly weren't trying it on. Your project sounds quite small and I wouldn't be surprised if they told you just to get on with it, if it falls within the parameters. You can work from home without PP - it's only conspicuous change of use which bothers them.
On the other hand our neighbour was a severe PITA and fought tooth and nail. Dragged it out for months. Had to do an appeal presentation to the full planning committee and was very relieved when we got a near unanimous vote.
So watch out for the neighbours and keep them informed/happy


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## Pallet Fancier (5 Jan 2021)

Jacob said:


> So watch out for the neighbours and keep them informed/happy


Amen


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## Fitzroy (5 Jan 2021)

I did PP for my shed 20x10 in a conservation area. No bother at all. I’m a firm advocate if go for pp and get what you want not accept a compromise to avoid a bit of paper work.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2021)

When I built my workshop it was easy (about 20 years ago) - you took your drawings etc. to the planning office and asked what you needed to do or what they would and wouldn't allow. Now you have to apply for outline and take it from there - they won't speak to you upfront.


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## Blackswanwood (5 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> When I built my workshop it was easy (about 20 years ago) - you took your drawings etc. to the planning office and asked what you needed to do or what they would and wouldn't allow. Now you have to apply for outline and take it from there - they won't speak to you upfront.


That may be the case for your local authority Phil but it is not the case for them all.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2021)

Good.


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## eribaMotters (5 Jan 2021)

I'm not sure how or if the regulations have changed since my build about 25 years ago.
I went 8 x 5m so at over 30m2 I needed building control with the local council. The cost for this was based on the estimated build cost, and as I was doing 95% of the work was lower than they expected. The only issue I had was the concrete base. They initially wanted a 200mm raft with two layers of road mesh over 600 x 600mm footings with a steel cage. It had to be cast in one go and was 180 feet from the road. I stood my ground and ended up 100mm over 400 x 400 footings, but cast in one go. The "shed" stands under 40ft oak trees and when we moved 20+ years later all was still good.
Planning permission was not required due to distance from house and the % of land being developed. The pitched roof height was also kept below 4m again in order to avoid planning permission.
If you are building within 1m of a boundary then you must build out of a non-combustible material. I went to 1.1m and built in studwork. 

Colin


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## Jameshow (5 Jan 2021)

eribaMotters said:


> I'm not sure how or if the regulations have changed since my build about 25 years ago.
> I went 8 x 5m so at over 30m2 I needed building control with the local council. The cost for this was based on the estimated build cost, and as I was doing 95% of the work was lower than they expected. The only issue I had was the concrete base. They initially wanted a 200mm raft with two layers of road mesh over 600 x 600mm footings with a steel cage. It had to be cast in one go and was 180 feet from the road. I stood my ground and ended up 100mm over 400 x 400 footings, but cast in one go. The "shed" stands under 40ft oak trees and when we moved 20+ years later all was still good.
> Planning permission was not required due to distance from house and the % of land being developed. The pitched roof height was also kept below 4m again in order to avoid planning permission.
> If you are building within 1m of a boundary then you must build out of a non-combustible material. I went to 1.1m and built in studwork.
> ...


That's what I did for my 2 story extension! 
150mm over 600 footings. 

That's a very heavy slab!! 

My local BC would come down to the foyer and speak to you on request .... Those were the days!

When he came out to inspect the brickwork he asked who the brickie was? guy from no7 I said and he went and got his number! 

Cheers James

Cheers James


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## eribaMotters (5 Jan 2021)

I had a different inspector for the building work on the house. He was excellent. I followed his advise and we soon built up trust in each other. At one stage he called in on the way home from work to check my footings excavations. At 6pm he passed them and by 9pm I'd mixed 3m2 of concrete and had it ready for the brickie to lay three courses of bricks the next morning. The work was in Essex, home of clay and what seem silly regulations for footings compared to where I am now on Merseyside.

Colin.


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## Sheptonphil (5 Jan 2021)

I had to put in for PP as we have no permitted development rights on our estate, they were removed as the estate is built on Duchy land.
if you are polite and upfront with them, listen to what they say are red lines (in my case it was the roofing material, it had to match the house.) this of course dictated the build quality as I had to use slate or fibre cement slates. They are not light, so had o build decent timber frame walls.
the planning process took six weeks or so, but was painless, the guys in planning are really helpful, as he told me, he wants to pass the plans, he’s not looking for reasons to stop you, but you have to comply.
one of you problems will be allowable materials. Over 15sqm internal, and the side along your boundary will have to be ‘predominantly non-combustable’ for that I used fireline plasterboard internally and Hardie Plank fibre cement cladding externally. 

You may be into building control as well due to the proximity to the fence.

well worth getting planning and having what you want.


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## marcros (6 Jan 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> In my experience people who work in Planning Departments are okay to deal with. They are overworked as councils have imposed cutbacks but do their best to do a difficult job. Their job is to apply the rules - that doesn’t in my view make them a jobsworth.
> 
> The timeframes for gaining Planning Permission are prescribed and it will only be complex or contentious submissions that don’t get resolved in eight weeks.



I have been waiting for 3 months now for permission to have a TPO'd tree pruned. I an appeal but they tell me that it will delay any decision further, the tree officer will get to it at some point.


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## sometimewoodworker (6 Jan 2021)

Pallet Fancier said:


> My other design has a 2.5m roof. The 3m design came about while trying to satisfy a long list of alternate uses which aren't relevant here (they're all about various different uses for the space other than/in addition to a workshop by me and other members of the household). Basically, the 2.5m design is a compromise. The 3m design is desirable.


While I can’t comment on your actual question I will on the clear height to the ceiling/rafters.
I had to work in an area that was about 2.3 meters maximum, while actually working was no problem moving material around was not an easy job.

I now have a minimum height of 3.5 metres under the fans and lights, with a maximum of probably about double that.

The extra height means that I can manoeuvre any sheet material very easily and timber that is up to around 5 metres long is equally no problem and longer lengths aren’t difficult (apart from transportation).

So a little more time and bother needed to get planning permission before you build is infinitely preferable to the bother of constantly dealing with a low clearance every time you need to move material.

I don’t suggest you go for the hight I have as though it’s nice, cleaning spider webs about 6.5 metres up is not a trivial job and the heating requirement for you would be interesting


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## shed9 (6 Jan 2021)

Be aware, the 2.5m height limit is the eaves height, not the ceiling height.


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## johnny (6 Jan 2021)

my advice would be not to involve the local Planning Dept if you can avoid it . 
Most single storey sheds, workshops and other structures will be deemed 'Permitted Development' in other words requiring no Permission.
Go to the Planning Portal and read up on the current Planning Laws rather than rely on anecdotal advice from others that is almost certainly out of date. Planning Permission | Outbuildings | Planning Portal.
With Building control again check what is permitted and what will require inspection. rather than get them involved unnecessarily and potentally make life difficult for yourself.. Is building regulations approval needed for an outbuilding? | Outbuildings | Planning Portal


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## Heluvaname (6 Jan 2021)

A word of caution regarding timescales.
Although the statutory limit is 8 weeks, that is from the time the application is "accepted".
With many planning departments being extremely overstretched at the moment some seem to have developed a policy of trying todelay acceptance by tying to find quite irrelevant and immaterial "deficiencies" in the application.
For example minor differences between elevations and plans; site plans that don't "print" to scale, despite being marked with the scale and a scale bar; things like that. 
The time taken to reply to correspondence regarding these deficiencies, and to get amendments accepted, can often add many weeks to the process., so be absolutely sure that EVERYTHING is perfect.
It's a typical local government short-sighted process of kicking the can down the road, and in the process actually creating more work for the admin staff!


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## Heluvaname (6 Jan 2021)

Of course if you do go for planning and it is refused for some reason, then that doesn't stop you erecting something that comes under Permitted Development, provided PD rights haven't been rescinded on your property at some point in the past (as can happen as a condition of previous planning permissions for example).


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## steve158 (6 Jan 2021)

Just a quick word on the power to the building, you will need to notify the local department as it comes under the Part P regulations. If you get a registered electrician to do the connection he will be able to notify and certify it for you.


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## artie (6 Jan 2021)

It's quite a while ago, mid nineties I think.
I had the opportunity to purchase a 5 acre field on the side of a main road less than two miles from the town centre for £25000.
I was chomping at the bit to build myself a nice house with enough space around it that I wouldn't be rubbing shoulders with my neighbours.
I called in at the planning office for a chat and a nice man came down to talk to me.
I laid out my plans and he asked me to hold on while he went back upstairs to check some stuff.
He reappeared shortly with a map, and said to me. " I can't tell you that your application won't be successful, you will have to make an official application and pay £x before I tell you that, but here is a map of that area, here is the development zone out to the bypass. Land on the other (my) side of the bypass is zoned greenbelt.
There are exceptions but unless you are planning this that or the other (which I wasn't) you won't get approval, but again let me emphasise I can't tell you that unless you make an official application and pay £x.
I thanked him and left.
As often in life strange things happen and a few years later the old farm house adjacent to the field came up for sale and I bought it. That is a whole story on it's own.  
The farmer again approached me about buying the field. I declined, feeling reasonably happy that I would have no neighbours in the foreseeable.


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## shed9 (6 Jan 2021)

artie said:


> The farmer again approached me about buying the field. I declined, feeling reasonably happy that I would have no neighbours in the foreseeable.


Land is being sold quite quickly these days within the UK. I'm quite rural and there has been quite a few fields and large acreage plots for sale that spurred no interest in the last ten to twenty years. All of them have sold in the last six months at the asking price with no haggling of price. I know of at least 40 odd acres that sold last year within local distance to me. Five acre fields are prime for buying these days as that's about the sweet spot for a smallholding -COVID has created a lot of Good Life wannabes of late with little regards to planning. 

You may want to keep your ear to the ground and look out for 'for sale' signs. Estate agents can sell land easily at the moment and if they get wind of it they will likely chuck it on their books. Appreciate there is small commission in five acres but this often leads to bigger sales for them.


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## artie (6 Jan 2021)

shed9 said:


> You may want to keep your ear to the ground and look out for 'for sale' signs.


I bought this old place over two years ago, it sits on <> three quarters of an acre, if I utilise all of it I'll be busy enough thanks. 

Was next door to the 5 acre plot for 21 years, was still green field when I left.


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## Bristol_Rob (6 Jan 2021)

Don't forget to consider The Party Wall Act

Companies in London (and other places) monitor planning applications and then write to your neighbours to generate a fee paying job (scumbags). Although they are correct in what they advise.

It's nothing to fear as the Party Wall Act is an enabling act and is there to help you develop.
Just don't ignore it.
You as the developer have to pay for your surveyor and theirs!

And yes it also includes boundary walls/fences/hedges etc...


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## shed9 (7 Jan 2021)

artie said:


> I bought this old place over two years ago, it sits on <> three quarters of an acre, if I utilise all of it I'll be busy enough thanks.
> 
> Was next door to the 5 acre plot for 21 years, was still green field when I left.


Fair enough, I just assumed (possibly wrongly) that your reason for potentially buying the offered land would be to ensure you were relatively free of neighbours. 

Enjoy the house and the land....


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