# Need help improving Shop lighting



## Domingos (20 Feb 2021)

I have a small workshop about 15 x 20ft with rough cement floor(which I can't change), white walls and low roof(from 8 feet to about 7) right now I only have a 5000lumen light lamp in the middle but I need more. It feels like I'm working in a cave. I need light and over here I can't find much(Portugal) information or light fixtures that don't leave me broke.
Does anyone have any recommendations from amazon.co.uk or .es? I can't spend over 150£.



Regards
Domingos Teixeira


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## Domingos (21 Feb 2021)

Help?
Did I write his in the wrong area?


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## Jelly (21 Feb 2021)

Doing lighting design well is difficult, but I've just been through this as part of refitting my workshop and can probably offer some pointers later from what I've learned; although have to cook lunch right now so may be a few hours


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## Spectric (21 Feb 2021)

Hi

Just make yourself some lighting boards, basically fit lamp battens to a board and use 10 Watt Led daylight bulbs. I use five bulbs in a central board that illumimates my workshop. This gives sufficient background lighting to work in but then I have a magnetic lamp that I can position on any machine I need that extra light. When doing more intricate marking out or such then I may also wear an LED headtorch which really illuminates the workbench or use a larger LED flood light. 

These are the lamp holders, I used four one on each corner of a 300mm sq board Angled Batten Lamp Holder BC 2.52

and one of these central, Straight Loop-In Batten Lamp Holder BC 2.52

and all connected together using WAGO connectors. You must have a local DIY store which will sell all these parts. Much cheaper than going for decent LED panels, yes you can get cheap LED panels but using bulbs is better unless you can afford decent LED panels.


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## Droogs (21 Feb 2021)

pipper miss-read the title again

but the below may help you


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## artie (21 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> pipper miss-read the title again
> 
> but the below may help you



Nice find.


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## Inspector (21 Feb 2021)

My shop is a little more than double yours in size with ceilings ranging from 9' to 11'. I have 64,000 lumens of light produced by 16 batten fixtures of about 2"x1 1/2" x 5'long. To get the same light levels in your space you would be looking at about 8 fixtures. Basically you are looking for about 100 foot candles or Lux per square foot, which is about 1,000 lumens, to get even light throughout the shop. I bought mine from China and 3 or 4 guys in the local wood club have bought since on my recommendation. Most recent one should have his in a few days. They were about $17US (late in 2016) each but the shipping will be the same or more (FedEx) but should still be within your budget unless you get dinged with high import costs. I you want to go this route let me know and I'll dig out the link to the company and then you can get what suits you or the equivalent Amazon product. Mine are 6,000K which is a colour temperature closer to mid day sunlight where indoor light from an incandescent bulb is about 3,000K to 4,000K. A warm light more like early evening sunlight.

Pete


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## DBT85 (21 Feb 2021)

I've 12 600x600 6000k panels in my 30m2 workshop and it's a great place to work. Couldn't tell you how many lumens they are each. People regularly think I've put skylights in the roof.

They probably aren't quality panels at £24 each. But they illuminate, don't cause eye strain, and look like I've not bothered putting a roof on.


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## Ollie78 (21 Feb 2021)

I have gone to LED battens they are very cheap these days IP65 1200mm were about £20 each, they are 35 watt but very bright, mine are 6000k which is supposed to be "daylight" colour.

Ollie


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## Inspector (21 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I have gone to LED battens they are very cheap these days IP65 1200mm were about £20 each, they are 35 watt but very bright, mine are 6000k which is supposed to be "daylight" colour.
> 
> Ollie


 Basically the same as what I have but mine were 40 watt equivalent and a touch cheaper. Nice having lots of light.

Pete


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## Jelly (21 Feb 2021)

Inspector said:


> My shop is a little more than double yours in size with ceilings ranging from 9' to 11'. I have 64,000 lumens of light produced by 16 batten fixtures of about 2"x1 1/2" x 5'long. To get the same light levels in your space you would be looking at about 8 fixtures. Basically you are looking for about 100 foot candles or Lux per square foot, which is about 1,000 lumens, to get even light throughout the shop. I bought mine from China and 3 or 4 guys in the local wood club have bought since on my recommendation. Most recent one should have his in a few days. They were about $17US (late in 2016) each but the shipping will be the same or more (FedEx) but should still be within your budget unless you get dinged with high import costs. I you want to go this route let me know and I'll dig out the link to the company and then you can get what suits you or the equivalent Amazon product. Mine are 6,000K which is a colour temperature closer to mid day sunlight where indoor light from an incandescent bulb is about 3,000K to 4,000K. A warm light more like early evening sunlight.
> 
> Pete



I started out on exactly the same page as you, aiming for around 1000 Lux illumination using LED battens, and have been pleasantly surprised by how much proper levels of illumination have improved my enjoyment and productivity; Though personally went for 4000k temperature because I find it easier on the eyes...

As an aside, because lumens are about perceptible light; a "warmer" colour temperature fixture will give slightly less lumens for a given wattage, because the human eye is more sensitive to blue light as found in "cool" lights.





Jelly said:


> Doing lighting design well is difficult, but I've just been through this as part of refitting my workshop and can probably offer some pointers later from what I've learned; although have to cook lunch right now so may be a few hours



There's a couple of things to consider with lighting design to get the most out of it, first is the level of illumination, which is usually stated in Lux (Lumens per Square Meter), BS EN 12464-1 (Light and lighting – Lighting of work places – Part 1) gives a lot of detail on what level's are appropriate for different tasks, which are tabulated below:







This suggests that depending what you're doing, a luminance level somewhere between 500 and 1500 Lux would be appropriate.

Knowing that you can use the area of your space (for a 15 by 20 ft space, that's about 4m × 6m = 24m²) to calculate the total illuminance in lumens needed to provide that for your space, so taking a middling value of 1000 Lux × 24m² = 24000 Lumens total.

That's the easy bit.


The harder bit it physically laying those out so that you can achieve a fairly constant average illuminance, with minimal shadows; in this respect using a larger number of lower output fittings ("Luminares") spread across the ceiling evenly is a much better plan than a small number of high-intensity fittings.

You also have to be aware of any ceiling obstructions which will cast shadows/block light, and the reflectivity of your walls when planning this, as that will have an impact on how well the light is averaged across the whole room.


Putting that into practice, when I was lighting my 3.5m × 7.2m workshop with 2.2m ceilings, I went for three independently controllable sets of lights running longways:

Two along the left and right edges of the workshop ceiling (white for reflectivity)
4 × luminaires casting 2000 lumens each
1200mm long "light batten" type lights
400mm in from the wall - (white walls which reflect most of the light back into the room)
On 1800mm centers, with 900mm between the end walls and the first/last fitting.

One along the center of the workshop ceiling
4 × luminaires casting 4000 lumens each
300mm × 1200mm "panel" type
Suspended to be at the same height level as the luminaires at the side of the room.
On the same 1800mm center pattern.

In practice that means I get a variety of illumination options:

300 Lux with just one set of side lights on (useful for welding, to have some working light, but ensure there's no backlight going down into my shield from behind),
650 Lux with minimal shadows cast with both sets of side lights on.
650 Lux overall with some shadows, but a more intense 1000 Lux light patch in the center of the workshop with just the downlights
1300 Lux overall with No Shadows and an area of around 1700 Lux in the center of the room where my Surface Plate and inspection bench is going
I really like the flexibility of that setup, and am glad I spent the time thinking carefully about how to lay out the fittings to get an even distribution of light, and minimise the potential to cast shadows over my work.


@Domingos, I hope that's given you some things to think about so you can work out what's important to you in terms of lighting, and how the layout of your workshop will dictate what type, size, number and power of luminaires you fit... 

Hopefully once you've done that then you should be able to achieve your optimal lighting setup quite happily.


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## baldkev (22 Feb 2021)

I cant seem to open file chooser to post a pik, but, i bought 10 x led batten lights off ebay for 49 quid last year. I was fully expecting them to be absolute rubbish but i just wanted them for the shed and loft. I wired one ip to a plug, plugged it in and was bliwn away by the light. I used 8 of them spaced out in a 40 foot shipping container, its extremely well lit and no fear of dark spots or shadows!


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## baldkev (22 Feb 2021)

Ps, when i took the cover off 1, theres 2 strip of leds that run down the sides of the fitting. I dont know how long they will last, but so far so good


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## okeydokey (22 Feb 2021)

Ive just discovered 5foot twin batten LED lights - superb - outshone my aged same size fluorescent fitting by multiples
Also round internal only bulkhead style LED again very good and relatively inexpensive


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## Robbo60 (22 Feb 2021)

Domingos said:


> I have a small workshop about 15 x 20ft with rough cement floor(which I can't change), white walls and low roof(from 8 feet to about 7) right now I only have a 5000lumen light lamp in the middle but I need more. It feels like I'm working in a cave. I need light and over here I can't find much(Portugal) information or light fixtures that don't leave me broke.
> Does anyone have any recommendations from amazon.co.uk or .es? I can't spend over 150£.
> 
> 
> ...





Amazon.co.uk


My shop is smaller than yours and I have 2 of these. Give great light. You can get then with ES fitting as well which I guess you have in Portugal? I had a concrete floor which I put thin rubber on but not much better. I then got a load of part18mm OSB boards for nothing so made a patchwork floor covering. Massive improvement on the feet and warmer. What are timber prices like there? I have a place in Fuerteventura and prices there are horrendous


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## bp122 (22 Feb 2021)

DBT85 said:


> I've 12 600x600 6000k panels in my 30m2 workshop and it's a great place to work. Couldn't tell you how many lumens they are each. People regularly think I've put skylights in the roof.
> 
> They probably aren't quality panels at £24 each. But they illuminate, don't cause eye strain, and look like I've not bothered putting a roof on.


+1 here.
It is the cheapest solution to the amount of light you can get whilst being really easy to install and take up the least height when installed.


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## Domingos (22 Feb 2021)

Robbo60 said:


> Amazon.co.uk
> 
> 
> My shop is smaller than yours and I have 2 of these. Give great light. You can get then with ES fitting as well which I guess you have in Portugal? I had a concrete floor which I put thin rubber on but not much better. I then got a load of part18mm OSB boards for nothing so made a patchwork floor covering. Massive improvement on the feet and warmer. What are timber prices like there? I have a place in Fuerteventura and prices there are horrendous


Here in Portugal they are going up but still not that bad(I think). I bought two 6"x6"x10ft(4 roubo bench legs coming up) eucalyptus beams for 18 bucks each. Two months ago they were supposed to have cost about 15 but I still think it's not as bad as in other countries. The only problem is I have to make do with eucalyptus and pine as I can't find anything else around my neck of the woods.


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## Domingos (22 Feb 2021)

baldkev said:


> I cant seem to open file chooser to post a pik, but, i bought 10 x led batten lights off ebay for 49 quid last year. I was fully expecting them to be absolute rubbish but i just wanted them for the shed and loft. I wired one ip to a plug, plugged it in and was bliwn away by the light. I used 8 of them spaced out in a 40 foot shipping container, its extremely well lit and no fear of dark spots or shadows!


Do you have a link you can share?


Inspector said:


> My shop is a little more than double yours in size with ceilings ranging from 9' to 11'. I have 64,000 lumens of light produced by 16 batten fixtures of about 2"x1 1/2" x 5'long. To get the same light levels in your space you would be looking at about 8 fixtures. Basically you are looking for about 100 foot candles or Lux per square foot, which is about 1,000 lumens, to get even light throughout the shop. I bought mine from China and 3 or 4 guys in the local wood club have bought since on my recommendation. Most recent one should have his in a few days. They were about $17US (late in 2016) each but the shipping will be the same or more (FedEx) but should still be within your budget unless you get dinged with high import costs. I you want to go this route let me know and I'll dig out the link to the company and then you can get what suits you or the equivalent Amazon product. Mine are 6,000K which is a colour temperature closer to mid day sunlight where indoor light from an incandescent bulb is about 3,000K to 4,000K. A warm light more like early evening sunlight.
> 
> Pete


Do you have a link you can share?


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## Droogs (22 Feb 2021)

how is eucalyptus re density, is it light or heavy?


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## Domingos (22 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> how is eucalyptus re density, is it light or heavy?


Once it's dry some eucalyptus(the one I bought is blue gum) is can be much harder than oak


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## Droogs (22 Feb 2021)

But is it heavy?


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## Domingos (22 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> But is it heavy?


Heavy enough for a workbench not to move. about 50 lbs per cubic foot


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## Inspector (22 Feb 2021)

Domingos I bought these but they have other types. Let them know the certification you need and they can provide you with the documentation that they conform to and the lights will have the correct labels affixed to them for any electricians or inspectors that want them. Also let them know what voltage you use. If you need longer cords than they provide get them at the same time because shipping later is a killer. I found out about them and bought through Alibaba. The guys I have referred to them bought direct without issue. You don't need to buy all one size, they will sell mixed lengths and types. 






Double T5 Led Batten Light-LONYUNG LIGHTING,Led Integrated Tube,Tri-proof,High bay Lighting Supplier


LONYUNG LED LIGHTING CO.,LTD is a professional LED lighting manufacturer established in 2008.We focus on T5/T8 Integrated tube light fixture,Tri-proof light,High Bay Light,LED Tube Light etc.




www.lonyung.com





Pete


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## GLFaria (22 Feb 2021)

Domingos said:


> ...over here I can't find much(Portugal) information or light fixtures that don't leave me broke...
> ... I can't spend over 150£.
> 
> Regards
> Domingos Teixeira



Easy, don't just complain, use your brains!
1 - You didn't think or look hard enough, or
2 - You want reay-made fixtures, which I agree may be expensive
3 - Just looking at some lighting tables won't solve your problem; here go a couple of links, anyway:
_http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html_
_ http://www.arca53.dsl.pipex.com/index_files/lightlevel.htm_
4 - 150£ = ca. 160 - 170 € ? Plenty enough if wou don't mind having just a little work

Of course, if you want ready-made you have tyo pay for it. But what happens if your Amazon buy doesn't fulfill your needs?
You can easily build simple designs using a number of sockets 2000+lm LEDs (think AKI, Leroy-M., etc), which will allow you to test different solutions and lighting.

My available "work" space is roughly the same area as yours, with a 2,80m white ceiling, very dark wooden floor, one rather small window looking East, no free walls available at all (bookcases + tool shelves all around, up to the ceiling). Quite a dark space, actually.
But I managed a working, flexible, not too expensive solution (certainly less than 160€) , which moreover I can easily improve or modify if I feel the need.

Come on. I'm 75, retired, no longer a keen eyesight (actually just one working eye, which bothers me a bit as I have no 3D eyesight and must be very careful with my tools). I spend a lot of time looking for ideas, not solutions. And I enjoy using what little brains I have.

Cheers
G.

PS- edited for unfinished sentencesd


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## Inspector (22 Feb 2021)

You are a sweat old fella aren't you G.?  That second link of yours doesn't open for me. 

Pete


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## OldWood (23 Feb 2021)

I can't really make too much comment other than I find that the batten lights are fantastic when they are effectively out of your immediate eyeline, and I would recommend them if you have high enough ceilings, but in a low worlshop they are just too invasive. For my main working area in my shop I use 600mm square led panel lights which are pure magic as they cast no shadows and are gentle to the eye.

I put up a 4ft LED batten above the lathe and have had to mount a plywood screen to shade it away because of the glare.
Rob


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## Spectric (23 Feb 2021)

Hi G

Unfortunately that is the way of the world, rather than sit down and think about a cost effective solution people turn to the net to find an answer and throw cash at it. It is one of the webs negative points, but if you have not always lived with the web at your finger tips then you delay this option, in my opinion it has clouded peoples thinking somewhat.


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## GLFaria (23 Feb 2021)

Hi,
Sorry for my rather harsh post. I just can't stand people complaining they can't do or find, then asking for other people to solve their problems. I still say "look for ideas, not ready-made solutions".
But Inspector is probably right, I may have become harsher with age 

On another note, I was wrong about the performance of the LEDs I've installed in my wokroom - they're 1250 Lm, not 2000+ as stated. Age again?

Cheers


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## Spectric (23 Feb 2021)

Heres a thought, if everyone uses the same tools with the same ideas from the same sites then one day everyone will be making the same, it is the thought process that gives inovation and creativity and problems should be seen as something to get the thinking process going.


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## Inspector (23 Feb 2021)

Everyones circumstances are unique to themselves. Some people love to make stuff for their shop, I have a buddy that spends countless hours making and restoring shop things and his wife nags him to no end because he never get things done for the house. Others just don't have the time to mess with tool making and shop improvements, because they are earning a living or putting kids through school or paying the ex-nagging-wife since she had a better lawyer. I bought new lights because our home was being built and all of it had to pass inspection before we could move in. I'm not going to dump on people when I don't know their abilities, comfort levels especially with zapping things and circumstances. I applaud G  for being able to create solutions to tasks that work for him but not everyone has the skills, especially starting out, to do so. Maybe the OP will stumble across a solution that doesn't require a new purchase and can take advantage of it but if he (I assume a he) doesn't he has some avenues to explore.

A tactful oldish grouch
Pete


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## Domingos (23 Feb 2021)

I know nothing of electricity and after reading what Sr. Faria said I can't say I have learned that much more as it's not an area I feel any interest towards or have learned about at school(unfortunately as I believe people really should learn about something so deadly). I will try to educate myself more a bit.
I like making stuff for my workshop and I have made everything from the cabinets to the workbenches but I don't dare mess with electricity. When I had installed a Sub panel for my shop I paid someone to do it for me as I didn't want to have sketchy electricity or risk the building. I did do a fair bit of research but not for the technical part as I don't understand it. I'm an English teacher by trade. I enjoy woodworking for the constant challenges it gives me but I have to know where to draw the line.

I wrote the post looking for people to share their experiences and yes to benefit a bit from their knowledge as I don't have it. Sorry if it was wrong to do.


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## Spectric (23 Feb 2021)

Hi



Domingos said:


> I know nothing of electricity


 But you do know the most important thing which is that it unless you do then leave it alone. Here in the Uk we use three pin plugs with square pins, at least you are fairly common with the rest of the world in that you have round pins and 16 amps rather than 13 amps, so as your supply voltage and frequency are the same as the UK then any machinery brought in the UK will work for you.


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## Inspector (23 Feb 2021)

Domingos said:


> I wrote the post looking for people to share their experiences and yes to benefit a bit from their knowledge as I don't have it. Sorry if it was wrong to do.



Not wrong at all. Keep asking as it is one of the ways to learn.
Pete


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## GLFaria (23 Feb 2021)

Hi, Domingos

May I ask why you feel the need for a Roubo-type bench? (did Chris Schwarz make another "victim"? )

Cheers


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## Domingos (23 Feb 2021)

(please delete. double posted)


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## Domingos (23 Feb 2021)

GLFaria said:


> Hi, Domingos
> 
> May I ask why you feel the need for a Roubo-type bench? (did Chris Schwarz make another "victim"? )
> 
> Cheers


I've built three workbenches so far. One made out of pallets, my 4year old daughter's bench(mini roubo) and my current one which was kind of difficult to build.(after thirdcoastman's design but made of pine).. The one that gave me the most pleasure building for it's simplicity was my daughter's. Now, one day I went to the lumberyard here in Fafe and a client had just declined an order for a custom beam 15*25*300cm out of eucalyptus. I asked how much they wanted for it, haggled a bit and the gent gave me a good price, 30 bucks. My dad needs a workbench and so I decided right there and then to make him a slab style roubo bench. Weird? 

Regarding Chris Scharwz I have to admit I do respect his work and opinions and after having read his books(some) it has definitely affected my view of what a workbench should feel like.


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## TomGW (24 Feb 2021)

To answer the OP. I can recommend LED batten lights. I bought a combination of 4ft and 5ft units and fitted them, alternately, in a rectangle, placed 4ft out from the white painted walls in my garage/workshop (ceiling height 10ft). The workshop is 17ft wide by 26ft long, so it’s a 4 + a 5 wide and 5+4+5+4 long. The 4s and 5s are on separate switches so can be lit as all 4s, all 5s or the whole lot. The lighting is amazing with no shadows, as the white walls reflect everything. 
I bought these slim battens from eBay and the total cost was well within your budget.


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## baldkev (25 Feb 2021)




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## baldkev (25 Feb 2021)

Just looking on ebay, they have gone up to about 60 quid for 10


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## GLFaria (26 Feb 2021)

Domingos said:


> ...
> Regarding Chris Scharwz I have to admit I do respect his work and opinions and after having read his books(some) it has definitely affected my view of what a workbench should feel like.



Please don't misunderstand me.

I do respect Schwarz and all the research he has done about workbenches. I have both his books and I learnt a lot from them.
What I don't like is his style of writing, either in books or in articles. On workbenches, he almost (almost!) managed to convey the idea that if you don't have a Roubo type bench, you can't possibly be taken seriously. At least that's how I see it. And so he managed to convince a lot of people that a Roubo is a must (at least he later recognised he had changed his ideas on some points).

I much prefer Scott Landis "humbler", if I may say so, approach. Basicallty, he proposes to look at the hows and whys of the workbenches of a number of high level pros, and talk about their benches (he even manages to write an entire chapter on the Workmate...). This is an approach that encourages people to think "what are my real needs in what regards a workbench? What am I going to use it for?".

I believe that a workbench must fit the work it is going to be used for, not the other way around. But...who am I to criticise Schwarz?

(I apologise if my English is not up to scratch. Last time I had classes in English was about sixty years ago, and I have worked mostly in a French or Spanish environment. Fortunately I like to read, mostly English, but I know for sure my pronunciation is horrendous)


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## Domingos (26 Feb 2021)

GLFaria said:


> Please don't misunderstand me.
> 
> I do respect Schwarz and all the research he has done about workbenches. I have both his books and I learnt a lot from them.
> What I don't like is his style of writing, either in books or in articles. On workbenches, he almost (almost!) managed to convey the idea that if you don't have a Roubo type bench, you can't possibly be taken seriously. At least that's how I see it. And so he managed to convince a lot of people that a Roubo is a must (at least he later recognised he had changed his ideas on some points).
> ...


Your English is way better than most people's. I try to take everything I read(also in English as nothing worth reading is translated to our native language) with a pinch of salt. 
I totally agree with you regarding most people not needing a big workbench. The best luthier I know, who's even made guitars for the Beatles works on an old table with no vises and poor lighting.. In fact, we spend hours discussing and reading about machinery and other aspects and I think the only machine he uses is a drill.. Even his scrillsaw is foot powered.. 
I started building guitar bodies and ended up enjoying building stuff for the shop. Planes, clamps, cabinets, workbenches... Oh and of course, my most important build, a playhouse for my daughter.. I am weird and like overbuilding stuff.. I like to imagine what I build will survive me and reach future generations of weirdos. I know, I know..


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