# Plane sharpening help please



## bexupnorth (18 Aug 2013)

Hi All,

I hope this doesn't spark the usual round of arguments, but I have a problem with my sharpening technique. 

I've decided to give freehand sharpening the time and effort it deserves as it makes sense to me to do the little and often thing rather than spending a whole weekend sharpening almost dead tools, which is what seems to happen at the moment. Please don't recommend I go back to honing as I want to focus on something for once instead of chasing some holy grail that doesn't exist. I know honing works, but I want to try the flexibility and speed that freehand seems to offer.

Anyhoo, I've bought a couple of half decent stones and seem to be getting the knack with chisels and sort of with planes. The problem is my planes are clearly sharp, but only seem capable of cutting in one direction. I've never experienced this before so can only assume it's something to do with my technique.

I'm working in pine (tests on hardwoods are not as susceptible to the problem) and with a piece in the vice, I can either take a lovely shaving off in one direction or the plane skids off the top of the work piece like the blade isn't protruding at all. Sometimes it'll catch and take off a shaving, but once the work is nearing flat I'm back to nothing again. It won't touch knots and performance is poor on plywood.

This is with a plane that was working just great when sharpened using a honing guide.

Any ideas?


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## Dangermouse (18 Aug 2013)

Your not planning against the grain are you. other wise ask Jacob. :-"


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## Jacob (18 Aug 2013)

One way of diagnosing what's going on is to plane just the edge of a thin board say 10mm thick. Look down at the bade edge as you go and see how it's cutting, and work different parts of the blade on the board. And look at the board itself to see how it has been cut.
But ultimately it's down to practice practice!!


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## Chrispy (18 Aug 2013)

Can I ask what kind of angle have you ended up honing at, it could be that it's a bit steep ie. more than 35 degrees.


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## MIGNAL (18 Aug 2013)

Hard to diagnose but it sounds as though the blade isn't sharp enough or there is a problem with the Plane. If you plane in the 'wrong direction' you tend to get a lot of tearout, with the plane having a tendency to dig in.


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## matthewwh (18 Aug 2013)

Sharpness may not be the issue. 

You would get similar symptoms if the sole is a touch concave or if the cap iron isn't seating properly and you are getting odd bits of trapped shaving wrapped over the cutting edge.


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## Reggie (18 Aug 2013)

distance of the blade tip to the chipbreaker can have a huge impact, mouth to blade distance. However, if it's not touching sometimes, it could be your approach with the height adjustment, try approaching the depth from one direction only (out), if you have to wind it back in, go over and then wind back out.


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## wizard (18 Aug 2013)

bexupnorth":1sdjieba said:


> This is with a plane that was working just great when sharpened using a honing guide.



well use the honing guide, simples!


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## matthewwh (18 Aug 2013)

Hmmm, just re-read that bit. 

Are you maybe lifting the blade too far as you pull back?

Have you tried going back to the guide to see if the issues cease?


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## David C (18 Aug 2013)

This is an almost perfect example of why honing guides are a good thing, for many people.

The angle is both known and repeatable.

Plane "was working just great" so there can't be much wrong with it. The problem almost certainly lies with the angle you are honing.

best wishes,
David


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## Peter Sefton (18 Aug 2013)

I would agree with the David, Mathew and Wizard above, although I am not sure why its works in one direction and not the other :? 
Peter


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## Jacob (18 Aug 2013)

David C":3oph6g8x said:


> This is an almost perfect example of why honing guides are a good thing, for many people.
> 
> The angle is both known and repeatable.
> 
> ...


Angle is known and repeatable freehand too. Not many people know this!
It's obvious a few people simply can't do it, but that shouldn't put you off, it just takes a bit of practice but saves a huge amount of time and effort. A little and often is the key.
Never heard of cutting one way but not the other, but if sharpening is the issue it may be you aren't getting a burr across the whole width especially the middle. This is a common beginner's fault as plane blades tend to be more worn in the middle and if very blunt it takes some time to get them right again and people stop too soon. The result is an edge which is sharp in parts, which could account for your prob.


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## matthewwh (18 Aug 2013)

I think Jacob may have it, if you are using camber or working on board edges the mid section of the edge is doing all the work. 

With a guide you will be used to a small number of sharpening strokes to hone through the edge, with freehanding there is less set up time but you are removing metal over a larger surface so you need to do more rubbing. Bear in mind that as part of the trade off you are also managing the 'primary bevel' part too - bit by bit.

If you try to slice into the edge of a piece of paper with the centre of the cutting edge do you get a nice clean cut?


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## woodbrains (19 Aug 2013)

Hello,

Wanting to hone freehand is fair enough, but I don't quite see why you think there is going to be a huge saving of time by not using a guide. You seem to think that honing little and often is some thing you can't / don't do with a guide, and it seems you have been waiting until your tools are insanely dull before you sharpen everything all at once in one mad sharpening session. If the tool is dull enough to need a sharpen then do it and use your guide, if this makes it easier to get the correct angle. It is easy, when freehand honing, to inadvertently raise the honing angle enough to leave no relief angle behind the blade, in a plane, and cause problems. Also, once a tool is dull, it can take more than a few quick swipes on the stone to 'refresh' the edge, as some people seem to think. If you do not remove metal past the wear bevel on the flat side, you have not sharpened enough. You may even raise a wire edge, but still have not removed enough metal to go beyond the wear and make the tool truly sharp

I sharpen both ways, for whatever suits my mood, more than anything else, but I have not found that using a jig wastes a lot of time. Quite often the tool requires less strokes on the stone, just because of the extra precision a jig introduces, so mitigating the initial set up somewhat. If using a jig takes away some of the doubts as to what angle you hone at, and avoid problems such as you are experiencing, then you are _saving _ time in the long run. There is no shame in relying on a jig, just as there is no added value to freehand, there are just different ways of getting the tool sharp enough to do the work. If you can do this without questioning whether the tool is sharp, has the wear bevel gone, is the relief angle adequate, then you are achieving the goal; if not, use a method that takes the doubt away and get working wood!

Mike.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":1wod9q43 said:


> .... It is easy, when freehand honing, to inadvertently raise the honing angle enough to leave no relief angle behind the blade, in a plane, and cause problems.


Even easier not to do this once you are aware of the possibility


> Also, once a tool is dull, it can take more than a few quick swipes on the stone to 'refresh' the edge, as some people seem to think.


That's when you've left it too long


> ....There is no shame in relying on a jig, just as there is no added value to freehand,


Shame doesn't come into it - it's just quicker and easier and involves less kit


> .... if not, use a method that takes the doubt .....


Not been invented yet!


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## bugbear (19 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":1qjq599l said:


> ...but I have not found that using a jig wastes a lot of time. Quite often the tool requires less strokes on the stone, just because of the extra precision a jig introduces, so mitigating the initial set up somewhat.



Seconded. In the whole sequence of removing the blade from the plane, removing the cap iron, rubbing the blade on various grits, re-reassembling, the additional time (with the usual projection jig) of putting the blade in the guide is greatly out weighed by the time saved by only working on a tiny secondary bevel. This is particularly true on the finer (all bar the first) grits.







BugBear


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## iNewbie (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":3h0c0wej said:


> woodbrains":3h0c0wej said:
> 
> 
> > .... It is easy, when freehand honing, to inadvertently raise the honing angle enough to leave no relief angle behind the blade, in a plane, and cause problems.
> ...



Its not about the tools, though...


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## woodbrains (19 Aug 2013)

Hello,

It is obviously Jacob,s raisin d'être these days to contradict everything that I say, even if there is no controversy, he will find some fictitious one. In all the years I have posted here, I have NEVER contended there was any problem with freehand honing per se, but always seem to be argued with as though I am some sort of jig crusader. Not so, it would be foolish to decry freehand honing, as I say repeatedly, I often do it.

But I have observed that, during freehand honing, once in every while due to the randomness of life or human physiological frailty, it happens that you just happen to rock the tool on the stone a bit and dub over the 'almost there' edge and essentially negate the last dozen strokes and have to re-do them. Jig not such a waste of time there. It would have removed the doubt, yes it has been invented, within reasonable tolerances.

Also, it is only human nature to work the very tip a bit more, after all, this is where the sharpening occurs, it wouldn't hurt if we put a bit more weight there, would it? Perhaps not the first hone, it might just add a few degrees more, but the second time, although we won't measure it, the bevel might now be 36 degrees and the relief angle is too small to plane effectively, leading to puzzlement. The edge is sharp, after all, but the plane won't work.



Jacob":20ahs7iz said:


> woodbrains":20ahs7iz said:
> 
> 
> > > Also, once a tool is dull, it can take more than a few quick swipes on the stone to 'refresh' the edge, as some people seem to think.
> ...



No, when a tool is dull enough to need sharpening it will have some degree of wear bevel (axiomatically) which will need removing to attain sharpness. I am not in the habit of sharpening tools that are still sharp, what is the point of 'refreshing' the edge of a still sharp tool?

Mike.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

> it happens that you just happen to rock the tool on the stone a bit and dub over the 'almost there' edge and essentially negate the last dozen strokes and have to re-do them.


Easier to train yourself out of this bad habit rather than investing in 100 quids worth of gear. Not a disaster anyway if you just do it once or twice but a habit to be avoided,


woodbrains":11z2iw17 said:


> ...... I am not in the habit of sharpening tools that are still sharp, what is the point of 'refreshing' the edge of a still sharp tool?
> 
> Mike.


Non at all, but there is every point in refreshing even a lightly used edge _in order to keep it sharp_ and avoid having to do a major job on it which would also interrupt the work. It's a bit like sharpening a pencil whilst you are drawing, and about as difficult if you do it a little and often.


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## Reggie (19 Aug 2013)

100s of quids for a honing guide? Where are they from, cartier?

£9 in b&q.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

Reggie":3ms35wal said:


> 100s of quids for a honing guide? Where are they from, cartier?
> 
> £9 in b&q.


Plus the usual paraphernalia.


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## woodbrains (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":3e81igbx said:


> Reggie":3e81igbx said:
> 
> 
> > 100s of quids for a honing guide? Where are they from, cartier?
> ...



Hello,

What paraphernalia? A jig, a stone or two. Don't think there are any special costumes or safety harnesses or anything. Am I missing something, or is my contention that using a sharpening jig actually isn't complicated or fussy actually registering.

Mike.


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2013)

I nearly always use a honing guide. I think they are great  

Can't understand this obsession some people have with wanting to hone freehand - IMHO it can never be as accurate as using a guide.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":16tb2xuu said:


> Jacob":16tb2xuu said:
> 
> 
> > Reggie":16tb2xuu said:
> ...


This is just a starter kit :roll: http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Bas ... g_Kit.html


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

Paul Chapman":208uiiyy said:


> I nearly always use a honing guide. I think they are great
> 
> Can't understand this obsession some people have with wanting to hone freehand - IMHO it can never be as accurate as using a guide.
> 
> ...


It's just that our OP is having a go and everybody is trying to put him off! I think he should be encouraged. They are just jealous because they can't do it. :lol: 
Makes you wonder how they manage other woodworking tasks as many of them are much more demanding than freehand sharpening. Maybe they don't actually do a lot?


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":3k2dis05 said:


> Maybe they don't actually do a lot?



Probably. Most people on here are hobby woodworkers and have to fit their hobby in around everything else, so they don't hone often enough to become proficient at free-hand honing.

Some people can do it very well. Mike Hudson of Clifton Planes; Garrett Hack; John Lloyd - I've seen them all free-hand hone and get their blades super sharp. But they are doing it all the time so become proficient. The rest of us are probably more infrequent woodworkers and therefore need the help of a guide to get super sharp blades.

But there really isn't an issue. Can't understand why you go on about it so much. Do you suffer from OCD :? :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

Dear Bexupnorth,

There's something in your post I don't quite understand. You wan't to avoid honing? Maybe it's just a vocabulairy misunderstanding, but honing is always part of sharpening edge tools, jigs or no jigs. Honing is just the last polishing phase, after grinding the edge to the required shape. 

I think your edge is just not sharp yet. Or maybe you have honed way too high an angle? If your getting very close to 45 degrees you are running out of clearance and the plane won't work right anymore. But I really think your edge is just not sharp. Planing against the grain is a bit harder to do then planing with the grain, so that might explain the directional difference.

BTW, trying to learn sharpening freehand is a very good idea. There are so many tools not fitting into a jig, that learning to freehand is an unavoidable skill. Better learn it on something easy like a chisel or plane blade, so you have the skill when you really need it.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

Paul Chapman":22bqct00 said:


> ...... . Do you suffer from OCD :? :lol:
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul


Very probably. 
But it's important to me and a daily issue. Today frinstance I'm putting these stairs together which means: trimming housings around a scotia moulding (4 or five chisels and a gouge), a bit of hand planing (Stanley 6) to shoot things to fit, a bit of rebate planing ditto (Stanley 78), taking off arrises (Stanley 220), cleaning up housing faces (2 1/2" Marples). It's repetitive which means very quickly you become aware of when things need sharpening. Fiddling with crazy sharpening techniques with about 10 tools would be extremely tedious. Whereas a little and often freehand fettle is no problem at all, keeps everything beautifully sharp and makes a nice little break. And they'll be sharp when I start again tomorrow - in fact all the planes under my bench are sharp and instantly available thanks to a little and often.


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2013)

Hope you'll post some pictures when you've done the stairs, Jacob. Much more interesting to discuss projects than sharpening :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":129g14zb said:


> Fiddling with crazy sharpening techniques...



And yet another Jacob strawman lurches into view. For chissakes, Jacob, find something REAL to object to.

Blade in jig, rub back and forth on a few grits. Not crazy at all. A quick and reliable route to a sharp blade.

BugBear


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

And how do you sharpen a gouge?


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## Reggie (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":33k6y93c said:


> Reggie":33k6y93c said:
> 
> 
> > 100s of quids for a honing guide? Where are they from, cartier?
> ...


I bought my honing guide kit for the sum total of £11 inc vat. It came with an oil stone and a bottle of honing oil, adding a whole £2 to the total.


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

Or a scrub plane blade? Or a moulding profile, marking knife, router plane, skewed chisel? With a jig?


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

A handsaw, wooden spokeshave, drawknife, axe?


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

Corneel":2ynbx5j8 said:


> And how do you sharpen a gouge?


The same way as the others except for a little slip stone for the inside edge.



> Or a scrub plane blade? Or a moulding profile, marking knife, router plane, skewed chisel?


 Ditto


> A handsaw, wooden spokeshave, drawknife, axe?


Except for the saw ditto again.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

bugbear":uxd9jgkx said:


> Jacob":uxd9jgkx said:
> 
> 
> > Fiddling with crazy sharpening techniques...
> ...


What's the jig for? I don't need one. When I tried with a jig it wouldn't work unless the stones were all dead flat and the jig very precisely set. Wouldn't do a camber either. Completely bloody pointless!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## bugbear (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":33qepbj8 said:


> When I tried with a jig it wouldn't work unless the stones were all dead flat and the jig very precisely set. Wouldn't do a camber either.



Since each and every one of those points has been previously refuted, I suggest you google them. You appear to be a very slow learner.

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (19 Aug 2013)

I think one of the secrets of freehand sharpening is developing a way of holding the plane blade securely so that you maintain the honing angle, so that the blade doesn't pivot up and down, rounding off the edge. Everybody develops a slightly different technique, so this may not be ideal for you, but I offer it for what it may be worth.

When gripping the plane iron, I support the bevel side of it (which is underneath as you hold it to sharpen it) lightly on my thumbs, and rest the top end of the blade in the webs between my thumbs and index fingers, then apply pressure to the upper (flat) surface of the blade with my index fingers. My thumbs and index fingers are just clear of the surface of the stone, so are about as close as I can get them to the cutting edge without dragging my fingers across the stone. Then I feel for the grinding bevel of the blade on the stone, settling the whole bevel in contact with the stone. Then raise it a couple of degrees so that only the cutting edge is in contact, and lock my wrists. Then, with pressure from my index fingers (and second fingers if the blade is wide enough), start honing by pivotting at my shoulders and elbows. My forearms stay horizontal, and parallel to the bench, and I take a firm stance with my feet, and keep my head still. This feels awkward at first, but with a little practice you relax and just stroke the blade up and down the stone. It quite quickly becomes second nature.

The real skill is ensuring that the blade you're honing can't pivot about the cutting edge on the stone, as that will round the very edge. It's OK to round the bevel BEHIND the cutting edge if you want to, but you must NEVER exceed your chosen honing angle right at the edge. Once you develop a technique that suits you to hold the blade so that it can't pivot above the honing angle, you've just about cracked freehand sharpening. You'll get better and better with practice.

There are a couple of ways to see if your finished edge is sharp, once you've honed and backed off the wire edge. On is to hold the edge up to the light, and look for a gleam of light along the edge. If there is one along the edge or part of it, that's light reflecting off a rounded edge, and the blade isn't sharp. If there's no gleam of light, there's no rounding, and the edge is sharp. Another test is to (gently!) feel the edge with the ball of your thumb. If it catches your skin, it's sharp; if it slides over your skin, it isn't. Another is to rest the edge on your thumbnail. If it catches, it's sharp; if it slides, it isn't. Using one of these tests can tell you whether you need to do more work to the edge without having to reassemble the cap-iron, reset the blade in the plane and take a test cut.

After several honings, the sharpening bevel you create on the stone will start to get larger, so will take longer to bring back to sharp. You can either lightly regrind the primary bevel (I use a Tormek wetstone grinder, but some people use high-speed offhand grinders, or a very coarse grit sharpening stone) or slightly increase the honing angle. Obviously, there's a limit to how much you can increase the angle before regrinding becomes necessary, but it can help you finish a planing job without having to stop to regrind. It's not really best practice, though.

Keep on persisting with the freehand sharpening if you can get it to work for you; it's a handy skill. However, if you really can't get on with it, there's no shame in using a honing jig. The only 'shame' is in having to use tools that are not sharp enough!


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2013)

Cheshirechappie":17guwc1d said:


> However, if you really can't get on with it, there's no shame in using a honing jig. The only 'shame' is in having to use tools that are not sharp enough!



Well said.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbrains (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":94x14gcu said:


> Plus the usual paraphernalia.
> 
> This is just a starter kit :roll: http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Bas ... g_Kit.html



Hello,

Indeed, this is a freehand starter kit; the clue is the absence of any jig!

Mike


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

How do you saw to a line?

(As long as no one of the jig lovers can answer these simple questions, I will add tasks, normal for any handtool woodworking shop, which are almost impossible to do with a jig. And being a weekend warrior is no excuse. I can freehand sharpen a chisel too, with ease).


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## David C (19 Aug 2013)

To counter some of the missleading drivel which we have been subjected to;

Axminster honing guide approx £7, does square edges and camber. I think it is much the best for beginners.

Stones should be reasonably flat, setting is not difficult. 

I demonstrate my techniques on my DVDs and take considerably less time to sharpen than Paul Sellers.

best wishes,
David


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

Does it do a scrub plane camber too, David?


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## Racers (19 Aug 2013)

There are only two ways, Jacobs way and the wrong way.


Pete


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## Graham Orm (19 Aug 2013)

Is a plane not a jig that holds a blade at a set angle?


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## woodbrains (19 Aug 2013)

Grayorm":wr4yy6uv said:


> Is a plane not a jig that holds a blade at a set angle?


 
Absolutely!

Mike.


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

But do you use a jig to guide your smoothing plane over a panel?


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## Grahamshed (19 Aug 2013)

To quote the original post......


bexupnorth":1ka3d4e8 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I hope this doesn't spark the usual round of arguments,



Seems you hope in vain.


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2013)

These threads have a strong similarity to the Oozlum Bird. Unfortunately, they don't disappear.......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## iNewbie (19 Aug 2013)

Corneel":3sn6qrb0 said:


> But do you use a jig to guide your smoothing plane over a panel?



No. I just do a Jig. Diddly-dee, diddly-dee....


I'll get my coat...


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

Ok, I might be overdoing it a bit. But there is something weird going on. Why would you use a jig to sharpen the easiest tools in your shop? And then having to learn freehand sharpening when things get difficult? And all the time you need to learn freehand techniques for cutting wood and manipulating the tools anyway? 

I'm still looking for answers who can explain this contradiction.

(And I am not holier then thou, I've used a jig for a long time too. Even bought the Veritas MK2 with cambered roller and all. But learning freehand sharpening when I recognised it was inevitable, was a great, liberating experience. Makes for a lot faster and more frequent sharpening too, despite the nay sayers).

And bexupnorth, don't listen to them, and just keep on practicing. Could you explain the procedure you are using now? Then we can give more detailed advice.


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## Graham Orm (19 Aug 2013)

Corneel":3ty8mn64 said:


> Could you explain the procedure you are using now? *Then we can give more detailed advice.*


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2013)

Corneel":2jdy79we said:


> Ok, I might be overdoing it a bit.



Yes , you are  Stop worrying about it, it's not important. You hone the way you want to do it and the rest of us will hone the way we want to do it. Problem solved........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

Don't worry, I'm not worrying. Just curious. Can you explain the contradiction?


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2013)

Corneel":f8gtn0zh said:


> Can you explain the contradiction?



No - but I don't accept that there's a contradiction. You are trying to compare different things.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Corneel (19 Aug 2013)

How different is sharpening a gouge and a chisel? One can be jigged, the other can't. Sharpening the chisel freehand is definitely a degree easier then sharpening a gouge. But people choose to use a jig for the chisel. That's a contradiction, as far as I can see.

Oh, and cheers too


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## dj. (19 Aug 2013)

Corneel":263j2yyp said:


> How different is sharpening a gouge and a chisel? One can be jigged, the other can't.



You buy a tormek for hundreds of £`s to sharpen the gouges etc, then you can spend hundreds more £`s buying all the jigs that go with the grinder :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Personally i use a couple of discs of MDF impregnated with cutting paste spinning on an old electric motor to hone my gouges, I feel i`m letting the side down & some poor tool sellers children are going to be missing out this Christmas :-" 

Regards.


dj.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

dj.":291bsmy5 said:


> Corneel":291bsmy5 said:
> 
> 
> > How different is sharpening a gouge and a chisel? One can be jigged, the other can't.
> ...


When I've had a go at carving I've done similar - plywood disc on lathe, with rounded edge and metal polish. Gets a lovely polish and sharp edge in no time. Freehand of course, no jigs needed. Can be done without a powered wheel, if necessary. Maybe we should have a whip round for the poor tool sellers? Some say they should get proper jobs.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2013)

Corneel":1vitm0b8 said:


> .....
> 
> And bexupnorth, don't listen to them, and just keep on practicing. ....


Yep. Can't go wrong - who needs training wheels? 
How up north are you BTW? You are welcome to drop in here for a demo and a plane set-up session (mid Derbyshire). No charge but beer always welcome! No DVDs to buy ( yet. 8) . )


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## wizard (19 Aug 2013)

my plane is sharper thah your plane =P~


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## MIGNAL (19 Aug 2013)

Double beveled knife. Had me confused for years. No matter how hard I tried I just couldn't get it to mount in my numerous honing guides. :? 
They aren't the easiest to sharpen freehand yet I could do it blindfold now. Safely as well! Harder to sharpen than Chisels or Plane blades.


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## Doug B (19 Aug 2013)

Jacob":2y8x60rs said:


> No DVDs to buy ( yet. 8) . )



Yebbut I've got video function on me I-phone, another business venture me thinks :shock:  

Cheers, 

Doug.


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## Corneel (20 Aug 2013)

So, nobody can explain the contradiction? Well, of course it's just human nature. We are too convenient and we are very poor at long term thinking. When being confronted with a dull chisel the first time, most of us will do a half hearted attempt at freehand sharpening, find that we are not a natural talent and actually need to do some work and invest a bit of time to learn this inevitable skill. So we buy a jig and get around for a while. Until we want to sharpen something not fitting in the jig of course.

Of course, everybody puttering along in his own shop can do whatever he pleases, and spend all the money he likes on whatever toys he fancies. For woodworking teachers (and those who give advice on a forum) there is no excuse. You do your students a disfavour when you learn them to sharpen with a jig.


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## MIGNAL (20 Aug 2013)

Oddly enough even the jigs aren't very accurate. Well they are for certain blades but not for others. Which is probably why you get the very expensive jigs, an attempt to overcome the shortcomings of the cheaper types. But the expensive jigs have their problems too, so you end up with owning 3 or even 4 jigs to help cope with all the different blade/chisel sizes. Suddenly Jacobs £100 jig isn't far wrong. And you still can't sharpen a gouge, a knife, a spokeshave blade. In fact any blade that is small or happens to have an unusual angle. I can't even sharpen my block plane blade that came with my small woodie. It's too short to give me the correct angle when mounted in the jig!!! :roll:


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## Jacob (20 Aug 2013)

Cheshirechappie":2x2y069p said:


> I think one of the secrets of freehand sharpening is developing a way of holding the plane blade securely so that you maintain the honing angle, so that the blade doesn't pivot up and down, rounding off the edge. Everybody develops a slightly different technique, so this may not be ideal for you, but I offer it for what it may be worth.
> 
> When gripping the plane iron, I support the bevel side of it (which is underneath as you hold it to sharpen it) lightly on my thumbs, and rest the top end of the blade in the webs between my thumbs and index fingers, then apply pressure to the upper (flat) surface of the blade with my index fingers. My thumbs and index fingers are just clear of the surface of the stone, so are about as close as I can get them to the cutting edge without dragging my fingers across the stone. Then I feel for the grinding bevel of the blade on the stone, settling the whole bevel in contact with the stone. Then raise it a couple of degrees so that only the cutting edge is in contact, and lock my wrists. Then, with pressure from my index fingers (and second fingers if the blade is wide enough), start honing by pivotting at my shoulders and elbows. My forearms stay horizontal, and parallel to the bench, and I take a firm stance with my feet, and keep my head still. This feels awkward at first, but with a little practice you relax and just stroke the blade up and down the stone. It quite quickly becomes second nature.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of this except I don't find holding the plane blade, chisel, etc such a problem. It's possible to be quite limp-wristed, even one handed (with a cup of tea in the other), as long as the angle is maintained visually. Non of this wrist locking - it's the eyeball which maintains the angle! But two hands is better because you can put more force into it. This is one of the main reasons freehand is faster.
And if you do round off the back of the bevel you can defer re-grinding indefinitely and the bevel never changes between honings/sharpenings.


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## bugbear (20 Aug 2013)

Corneel":o4ru1al6 said:


> But do you use a jig to guide your smoothing plane over a panel?



I use a jig to guide a 2" wide chisel over a panel. I call it a "smoothing plane".  

Presumably one could chisel the groove for a draw bottom, but I prefer to use a jig that control both the rate, position and depth of the cutting - I call it a "plough plane".

Woodworkers often use a when sawing to a line, _when the cutting needs to be very accurate_;







I (of course) sharpen many of my tools freehand - drawknife, gouges, in-cannel gouges, reeding planes.

But I enjoy the superior edge I get when I can bring the precision of a jig to bear; so I use a jig for chisels and bench plane blades.

BugBear


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## MIGNAL (20 Aug 2013)

Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted. Practice! or use my technique, which is to use very short strokes on the stone. Short strokes means less arm movement, less to go 'wrong'. 
You can slowly make your way up and down the stone if you want to wear the stone evenly.


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## Corneel (20 Aug 2013)

MIGNAL":36yhdjtk said:


> Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted. Practice! or use my technique, which is to use very short strokes on the stone. Short strokes means less arm movement, less to go 'wrong'.
> You can slowly make your way up and down the stone if you want to wear the stone evenly.



And it's better to practice now, on something easy like chisels and planeblades! When you need to use a gouge or drawknife, you want them to be razorsharp too, and can't fall back on the jig.


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## woodbrains (20 Aug 2013)

bugbear":31vt0ynh said:


> Corneel":31vt0ynh said:
> 
> 
> > But do you use a jig to guide your smoothing plane over a panel?
> ...



Hello,

Thoroughly agree! Also the shooting board, mitre trap, bench hook, router plane, mitre templates, donkeys ear......almost every woodworking task has some fitment or accessory to help us get a higher level of accuracy than hand and eye alone. Isn't Jacob's rotating, horizontal abrasive disc on which he roughly grinds edges 'freehand', just a jig from the other end of the setup? 

Sharpening gouges, axes, draw knives etc. freehand has almost nothing in common with sharpening plane irons and bench chisels. Gouges are rubbed bevel in the longitudinal direction of the stone whilst rolling the bevel, other tools remain still and have the stone presented to them and slip stones to the canals. The first re-shaping of carving gouges from abused antique or a newly manufactured one takes absolutely ages to do on stones, and if there was a jig for this I would gladly have one and save hours of time. I am currently re shaping about 20 assorted carving tools a la Chris Pye, and it is TEDIOUS.

Also, I have noticed that many freehand honers using oilstones here do not advance further than a Fine India stone. (Not all, so edit this appropriately if you DO actually sharpen to the degree I'm wanting with my tools) if they used a translucent Arkansas stone, (which is still not quite as fine as I go, but about as fine as you can get with oil stones) they might find a jig a godsend after all, 'cause these stones take bloody ages, maybe 30 or 40 strokes, which you will agree is hard for the human frame to achieve with a real level of consistency. But then I know some will say that I get my tools too sharp (if there could be such a thing!) and they didn't do it like that in Chippendales day, blah blah. 

Like I said before, just different ways of getting to the point of doing woodwork. If one finds an advantage that another doesn't understand, what is the problem?


Mike.


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## DTR (20 Aug 2013)

Paul Chapman":emke4qmc said:


> Hope you'll post some pictures when you've done the stairs, Jacob. Much more interesting to discuss projects than sharpening :wink:
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



I quite agree =D>


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## Corneel (20 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":15omfq7o said:


> Sharpening gouges, axes, draw knives etc. freehand has almost nothing in common with sharpening plane irons and bench chisels.



Huh? When we look at a gouge, the closest relative to the chisel, we see it sharpens exactly the same as a chisel, except you have an additional rolling motion like you mention. So it is just plain logic to practice first on chisels, before you are going to try to learn freehand on gouges. Learning is best done when you start with the simple things, trying to get the art down, then move on to a more difficult task.






woodbrains":15omfq7o said:


> Also, I have noticed that many freehand honers using oilstones here do not advance further than a Fine India stone. (Not all, so edit this appropriately if you DO actually sharpen to the degree I'm wanting with my tools) if they used a translucent Arkansas stone, (which is still not quite as fine as I go, but about as fine as you can get with oil stones) they might find a jig a godsend after all, 'cause these stones take bloody ages, maybe 30 or 40 strokes, which you will agree is hard for the human frame to achieve with a real level of consistency. But then I know some will say that I get my tools too sharp (if there could be such a thing!) and they didn't do it like that in Chippendales day, blah blah.



Well, I use waterstones down to a Naniwa SS 8000 grit. But when you use an Arkansas and need 30 to 40 strokes each time you touch up an edge, you might want to sharpen more often. BTW, don't you use a strop?

Here is a video with an effective method to sharpen with oilstones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z0ClNp_Eknw


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## bugbear (20 Aug 2013)

MIGNAL":1s9blefu said:


> Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted.



To me it suggests that jig offer an advantage.  

How do we resolve this disagreement?

BugBear


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## iNewbie (20 Aug 2013)

Agree to disagree - and use the method(s) that suits your habit.


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## Jacob (20 Aug 2013)

woodbrains":x2y8intz said:


> ......
> Like I said before, just different ways of getting to the point of doing woodwork. If one finds an advantage that another doesn't understand, what is the problem?
> 
> 
> Mike.


The problem is that when anybody (such as our OP) mentions freehand sharpening there is a massed reaction from the naysayers. OK so they can't do it themselves but they shouldn't try to persuade everybody else that they can't do it either!
Re fineness of stones as above. Law of diminishing returns. Finer you go the longer it takes and the shorter the life of the edge. Common sense says there is a point where, for woodworking purposes, scraper, sander (or nothing) is the next step. There is a quasi religious zeal for ultimate plane sharpness instead, which is slightly bonkers IMHO.


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## bugbear (20 Aug 2013)

Jacob":1fn5agsa said:


> The problem is that when anybody (such as our OP) mentions freehand sharpening there is a massed reaction from the naysayers. OK so they can't do it themselves but they shouldn't try to persuade everybody else that they can't do it either!



All I see is people advising according to their experience and knowledge.

If people have different opinions, that's what discussion groups are for.

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (20 Aug 2013)

iNewbie":xa74pv32 said:


> Agree to disagree - and use the method(s) that suits your habit.




I wholeheartedly agree with this - but with a small caveat. 

The OP stated that he (or she) was having difficulty getting good, consistent results with freehand sharpening, and asked for advice. One or two of us have tried to outline the technique we use to sharpen (for example, Mignal's preference for using short strokes of the blade on the stone, and slowly moving over the stone's surface), in the hope that taking something from the various methods might help to resolve the OP's problems. No two people sharpen in quite the same way, so the OP will have to develop their own method, but it does help if people describe what they do and perhaps why it works for them. There isn't one 'right' way of sharpening, and the only 'wrong' way is one which results in tools that aren't sharp enough. 

Come on chaps - just throwing brickbats at each other won't help to resolve the OP's problems at all. Just describe how you get a good edge, and maybe why you evolved the method that works for you. I'm sure even the experienced among us could take something positive from others' experience.


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## MIGNAL (20 Aug 2013)

bugbear":3lqjbggv said:


> MIGNAL":3lqjbggv said:
> 
> 
> > Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted.
> ...



Afraid not. If jigs offered an improvement for a _sharper_ edge then pretty much all the fiddle makers I know would be using one. They aren't though. These people work in Ebony and highly figured Maple. Knife is a mainstay. They get them SERIOUSLY sharp, at least the ones that I know do. Sharp enough to 'chop' hairs, not just shave them at their base. That is sharpening taken to another level. But they are sharpening their tools without jigs. That jig must be pretty special to get an edge sharper than that. I haven't come across one yet though. I've only tried a couple. Maybe the Veritas gets things sharper :roll: 
BTW. Woodbrains. I use a coarse Oil stone, then straight to a 8,000G waterstone followed by a strop. Leather is good. Drop your hand a touch to prevent rounding over. It's all pretty easy once you know how.


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## MIGNAL (20 Aug 2013)

Cheshirechappie":15kt713c said:


> iNewbie":15kt713c said:
> 
> 
> > Agree to disagree - and use the method(s) that suits your habit.
> ...



I used jigs for years. Even though I had trouble with thin chisels I still continued to use them. I also used freehand, on blades that obviously could not be jigged. Never thought about the contradiction that Corneel mentioned. It's only when I thought about the 'problem' that I changed over to freehand. I used to play Violin a little (badly). Then I thought how much harder it is to pull the bow across the strings in a very controlled manner. In some ways it's not unlike pushing/pulling a blade the full length of an oil stone whilst maintaining an angle. The difference is that the Violin bow is MUCH more complex. There's two directions or 'planes' to think about, there's counterbalance and subtle changes in pressure or weight. There's slow and fast, stop and start. There's fade. We only have a mere fraction of those skills when it comes to sharpening a blade.


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## Corneel (20 Aug 2013)

When you give real honest advice, you should add that using the jig leads you away from the ultimate path to sharp edges on ALL woodworking tools. Freehand sharpening is a skill that needs to be learned anyway, sooner or later. Better get it out of the way right at the start. As soon as you are addicted to the jig, learning freehand when you really need it will take more effort.

Added advantage of going the freehand route is the liberating experience and the cost and time savings.


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## woodbrains (20 Aug 2013)

Corneel":2ubgs0ud said:


> Well, I use waterstones down to a Naniwa SS 8000 grit. But when you use an Arkansas and need 30 to 40 strokes each time you touch up an edge, you might want to sharpen more often. BTW, don't you use a strop?
> 
> Here is a video with an effective method to sharpen with oilstones:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z0ClNp_Eknw



Hello,

I use 8000 grit waterstones too. I still use oilstones occasionally, but stopped using them as my main media because of the speed issue. It has nothing to do with sharpening sooner with the Arkansas stones, they are hard and remove very little material. It is as much a metal consolidation with those stone as metal removal. I used mica slate instead of the Translucent Arkansas because of the quicker cutting but they also wear quicker. There is a relationship between stone wear and cutting efficiency that you will of course know, being a waterstone user. Stropping after the slate brought me to about the same level of sharpness as the 8000 waterstone, but took more stages, so the waterstones are a no brainier, really. But please, do not acuse me of not sharpening often enough, etc, etc. I've been doing it for so many years I get the tools laser sharp and quickly, my work (and mentality I suppose) needs very sharp tools.

Sharper edges stay sharper longer, this is a simple truth that eludes some. This is a time saver too, and if I get that sharper edge quicker than someone might a less sharp edge, how is there a downside?

The whole point is, the OP now has tools that don't work as well as when he sharpened with a jig. He may do well to persevere with freehand honing, I don't have a problem with that. But it is the false assumption that you can only sharpen 'little and often' freehand, but somehow cannot with a jig, that I reject. I sharpen little and often and mostly use a jig; there is no conflict. It is quick enough and I was a professional maker, time was not prohibitive. If the OP gets his tools working as they were with a jig, but cannot without, there is no issue. Do whatever it takes to get the tools to the state where you can work wood happily. My guess is, his little sharpening was not removing enough metal lo get past the wear bevel at the flat side of the tool, which he was doing with the jig. He perhaps needs to recognise what needs to be achieved during sharpening, rather than just rubbing the tool on stones and thinking there is some sort of better way one way or the other.

Mike.


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## Corneel (20 Aug 2013)

I interpret the OP's question differently. He is trying to learn an new skill, a very valuable skill for a woodworker, and then some people try to talk it out of his head. "Continue using the jig". That's not a very constructive answer.

To help the OP, here is a quick video of me sharpening a plane blade. Caveat: I use the toolrest of the dry grinder, so it isn't pure freehand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ehSrX1Dx78


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## G S Haydon (20 Aug 2013)

Hello bexupnorth

Your problem does sound initially quite odd. I think the term practice, practice, practice comes into play. Did you always have good results with the jigs?
There are lots of free video tutorials on line and it would be worth watching a few. Watch how different people choose different ways to move the blades on the stone and find one that resonates with you.
Paul Sellers has an example of a certain approach, while there are the Japanese craftspeople that move the blade quite differently. Watch them, and try to copy the one you like the look of. 
One thing is for sure there is no wrong way, only the method that gives you the sharpest edge in the shortest time based on your work and tools. Sounds easy doesn't it :wink:. Keep us updated with progress and what worked for you, it will help others.

Graham


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## Paul Chapman (20 Aug 2013)

Corneel":rxqmnwd0 said:


> When you give real honest advice, you should add that using the jig leads you away from the ultimate path to sharp edges on ALL woodworking tools. Freehand sharpening is a skill that needs to be learned anyway, sooner or later. Better get it out of the way right at the start. As soon as you are addicted to the jig, learning freehand when you really need it will take more effort.



Not at all. I use a combination of honing guide and free-hand when necessary, such as when honing shaped, combination plane blades.

I normally use DMT stones with oil and various honing guides





I follow this with Autosol and oil on a piece of quarter sawn wood 






When honing shaped blades, such as beading cutters, I'll hone the flat piece using a guide and the shaped piece freehand - in this case on an MDF wheel in a drill





Works really well.

It's not as cut and dried as guide or no guide. We all eventually find what works best for us.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Corneel (20 Aug 2013)

Well, if it works for you, all the better. How do you sharpen a gouge? And do you get it as sharp as a chisel in a reasonable amount of time?


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## bexupnorth (21 Aug 2013)

Well after trying not to I seem to have sparked the mother of all debates, sorry.

To set the record straight, I do get reasonable and reproducible results when using a jig. However, I want to learn to do it freehand simple as that. With freehand I find myself stopping regularly to sharpen and have a bit of think when working. With jigs I don't. No idea why and for once I'm not going to force it.

So no more about jigs Okay?  I know they work and I know when to use them, I just want to learn a new skill.

Jacob, I live about 30 miles north of York, so I'm not on your doorstep, but that's a very kind offer that I'd like to take you up on one day. I suspect there'll be a few more questions you can help me with too, thank you.

Many thanks to all who have replied, tried to keep this on track and also given me tons of stuff to go at. For reference I'm trying to follow the Grimesdale method (having re-read it since I posted this I'm not doing it very well) as I like the idea of a rounded blade that "never" needs to be correction ground (yeah I know, I'm deluding myself). I now believe it all goes wrong when I'm drawing the blade towards myself because I'm raising the blade angle as I go, sometimes even going past the vertical as I finish my stroke. This will result in me rounding over the edge AND getting too steep an angle at the same time. I do test the blade on my thumbnail and it's sharp, but the dynamics are all wrong to allow it to cut.

Anyway, I now need to get back in the workshop and practice.

Thanks again,

Ade.


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## Reggie (21 Aug 2013)

I wouldn't worry about sparking debates, I've done the same fairly recently with plane and chisel sharpening too. Look at all the advice and then make your own mind up, don't be bullied into something you don't want to do or turned away from something you want to try.


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## Corneel (21 Aug 2013)

Yes don't worry about the debate. All those involved are just having a bit of fun. 

With the Grimsdale method you really need to see Jacob. He's the same guy.


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## bugbear (21 Aug 2013)

bexupnorth":2qt82htv said:


> For reference I'm trying to follow the Grimesdale method (having re-read it since I posted this I'm not doing it very well) as I like the idea of a rounded blade that "never" needs to be correction ground (yeah I know, I'm deluding myself).



Jacob AKA grimsdale had a disciple, a while back. He made some useful videos, and has continued to adapt and develop convex bevels. You may find his experience and point of view helpful.

http://www.closegrain.com/2010/04/grimsdale-method.html

He uses rather more, and finer grained, abrasives than Jacob's "Norton fine does everything" approach, and he's also a back-flattener.

Over time, he's evolved a slightly different system;

http://www.closegrain.com/2012/07/conve ... ening.html
http://www.closegrain.com/2012/07/conve ... art-2.html

http://www.closegrain.com/2012/08/doubl ... ening.html
http://www.closegrain.com/2012/08/doubl ... ng_24.html

The approach has essentially morphed into a classic "grind low and rough, hone high and fine", bit it took two years to do so...

He's also tried other systems:

http://www.closegrain.com/2012/09/hollo ... ening.html

He's come to a conclusion...



Steve Brennan":2qt82htv said:


> As with all the other methods I've practiced, I was able to get excellent results. The key lessons to be learned are that there are many ways to sharpen that work well (though people will endlessly debate multiple aspects of each), but that they all take an investment in time and practice. Some may offer quicker success, but it's not that difficult to get them all on par.



BugBear


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## bexupnorth (21 Aug 2013)

Thanks Bugbear,

Some very interesting reading there (not just on sharpening) and some words of wisdom to go with them.

Regards,

Ade.


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## bexupnorth (27 Aug 2013)

Thanks folks,

Works a treat now. As suspected it was my technique, slices through knots and you can barely tell when planing aginst the grain now it's so sharp.


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## Corneel (27 Aug 2013)

Congratulations


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## Vann (28 Aug 2013)

I've only just read this thread (I guess I'd been avoiding it as it was inevitable that it would turn into an argument). 

Anyway - 7 pages :!: and right from the first post it was obvious what the problem is - and you ALL missed it.... 


bexupnorth":34pcsao6 said:


> The problem is my planes are clearly sharp, but only seem capable of cutting in one direction.
> 
> Any ideas?


Yup. They're only supposed to cut in one direction - knob to the front, tote to the rear.... 

I'll get me coat... (hammer) 

Cheers, Vann.


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## Kalimna (29 Aug 2013)

Well, Vann, you *might* have hit the nail on the head there, if it wasnt for the fact that some planes (those of HNT Gordon ferinstance) can be held either way, and pushed *or* pulled along the wood. Now, theres a caveat there, but why spoil a lighthearted reply with mere truth?

Adam


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## bexupnorth (29 Aug 2013)

> I'll get me coat



Could have been worse, you could have mentioned the boy band...


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## G S Haydon (29 Aug 2013)

bugbear":hn0pcff5 said:


> bexupnorth":hn0pcff5 said:
> 
> 
> > For reference I'm trying to follow the Grimesdale method (having re-read it since I posted this I'm not doing it very well) as I like the idea of a rounded blade that "never" needs to be correction ground (yeah I know, I'm deluding myself).
> ...



Nice links, always good to see the journey of others.


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## reggyboy (1 Sep 2013)

Wow this has turned into a right old to do..lol.I'm just glad i learnt to hone when i started to restore cut-throat razors.There is no short cut to taking them from blunt to shave ready! :lol:


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