# Making hardwood DG sashes - Advice on how to cut rebates



## RichD1 (20 Feb 2021)

I'm replacing the sashes on my bay window with hardwood (sapele) ones to take DGU's. I've sawn and thicknesses the stock material down to size and now need to rebate them all to take the DG.

The sticks are 53mm x 43mm Qty 13 and 92mm x 43mm Qty 4. The rebates need to be 34mm x 12mm and the sticks are about 950mm long.

I have a router table and a table saw but can't decide which is the better machine to use taking into account the number of sticks I have to machine.

The table saw would be much quicker but a tad more risky and I would need to make some holding jigs. The table saw does have a side sliding table which would be less risky but probably more difficult to set up and hold due to the length of the sticks.

I do have various rebate cutters on 1/2" shanks or is there a better cutter to use like a slotting cutter to replicate what the saw blade would do?

Richard


----------



## Spectric (20 Feb 2021)

I would use the router table, mark all the workpieces clearly and take light cuts, running all pieces through before increasing depth and repeat. Also need to move fence unless you can go wider, 38mm Standard Series

These will give 21mm in a pass Small Series so two passes to get your 34mm. They leave a nice finish and cut well.


----------



## deema (20 Feb 2021)

You will need jigs / pressure bars for which ever method you go for. For me, the thought of passing by hand material through a router table is a good way to an appointment with a hand surgeon. 
Of the two methods, for me the quickest, best and simplistic solution would be to run them through the table saw. Depending on the rebate size you can often get the beading from the waste you’ve cut out.


----------



## Jacob (20 Feb 2021)

Yes table saw - really easy as long as you have proper rock-solid set-up with hold-in feathers on in and out tables, and hold-down feathers on fence. And of course, use two push sticks.
No need to buy daft gadget feathers they are very easy to make (search this forum) and do a few trial runs with some offcuts.
PS and watch out for the waste being flung out like an arrow, but it won't do much damage!
Might need to clamp or prop the end of the fence to stop it wandering off e.g. a G clamp and a lath


----------



## RichD1 (20 Feb 2021)

deema said:


> You will need jigs / pressure bars for which ever method you go for. For me, the thought of passing by hand material through a router table is a good way to an appointment with a hand surgeon.



I already have feather boards for the router table.



Jacob said:


> Might need to clamp or prop the end of the fence to stop it wandering off e.g. a G clamp and a lath



Do you mean clamping the far end of the main fence? 

How would you pass the 2nd cut through? With the waste piece against the fence or on the other side of the blade? 

Richard


----------



## Jacob (20 Feb 2021)

RichD1 said:


> I already have feather boards for the router table.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Waste against the fence. It can get slung out - not desirable but generally not a prob.
This way around any wobbly mistake will be a cut into the waste, the other way you'd cut into the workpiece
Or you can add a spacer to the fence above the highest part of the rebate, so leaving a safe drop-out space for the waste with no risk of it being picked up and shot out.
Apologies for crude sketch - just trying out back of envelope and the computers own camera! Quite handy, must do this more often!

Yes - clamp far end of fence - or clamping a bit of scrap against it so it won't get pushed out of line


----------



## Ollie78 (20 Feb 2021)

This sounds like a fairly painful way to do it but If I remember rightly cmt used to do a router bit that would do the mould and rebate, like a spindle moulder would. I have one somewhere.

If using what you have I would do a rough cut on the table saw, then just take of 1mm on the router to clean it up nicely. 

This is why I bought a spindle moulder, try it you won't regret it.

Ollie


----------



## Jacob (20 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> This sounds like a fairly painful way to do it but If I remember rightly cmt used to do a router bit that would do the mould and rebate, like a spindle moulder would. I have one somewhere.
> 
> If using what you have I would do a rough cut on the table saw, then just take of 1mm on the router to clean it up nicely.
> 
> ...


Not painful at all - really quick and easy, if set up carefully. But yes spindle much better, perfect cut in one pass every time.


----------



## Chip shop (21 Feb 2021)

The table saw method requires the crown guard to be removed from the saw which is perhaps not great advice for someone who isn't that experienced with woodworking machinery. If you're using a piece of kit and have to start removing safety features, then you might be using the wrong piece of kit.

Spindle moulder is the answer from a production workshop point of view, but I see no reason why the same results couldn't be achieved on a decent router table. The main issue is stabilising the work piece on the outfeed section of the fence.


----------



## Jacob (21 Feb 2021)

Chip shop said:


> The table saw method requires the crown guard to be removed from the saw which is perhaps not great advice for someone who isn't that experienced with woodworking machinery. If you're using a piece of kit and have to start removing safety features, then you might be using the wrong piece of kit.
> .......


Yes I but if he hasn't got a spindle moulder then that isn't an option in the first place.
However he is looking at the TS as an option.
We never know what our man will decide to do, nor how competent or risk averse he is, so you just have to point out the hazards and the _*additional*_ safety measures, which I did - feather boards, 2 push sticks, safe space for waste fall out, secure the end of the fence.
Better that than have him fiddling about and losing a finger.
Re the false fence and safe space - this becomes essential if you are tilting the saw blade and cutting a bevel. Otherwise the triangular waste piece can get lifted by the blade and wedged in tight between blade and fence - most likely to be shot out forcefully at the rim speed of the blade. I discovered this early on and the off-cut penetrated the plaster board of the wall opposite, about 6 ft away.


----------



## Jacob (21 Feb 2021)

Chip shop said:


> ..... The main issue is stabilising the work piece on the outfeed section of the fence......


No prob if the workpiece has a large enough flat face left to be pressed against the outfeed - by powerfeed or featherboards carefully placed. In fact your outfeed add-on fence could be problematic in that any wobble in the cut, or chipping getting in between, could force the workpiece out - a blip to be followed by the cutter so it wouldn't go back in, thereby magnifying the error.
It's supported by the in feed table all the way anyway, until the last inch or so goes past the end of it


----------



## RichD1 (21 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> Better that than have him fiddling about and losing a finger.



I am totally risk adverse as I recently lost the top 8mm off my index finger on the left hand whilst using my bandsaw. I was rough size the sticks ready for thicknessing. The height of the workpiece was 100mm so quite a lot of blade exposed. I think it was complacency as it was on the last cut of 20 odd sticks. Strange, never felt a thing until I noticed the workpiece was covered in blood!!!! I consider myself very lucky that it wasn't more of the finger.

At the moment I'm favouring the router option but need to find something to support the wood on the outfeed side. I do have several fingerboards so this may be enough Just measured the table and it has about 40cm on both sides of the cutter.

Richard


----------



## Inspector (21 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> Waste against the fence. It can get slung out - not desirable but generally not a prob.
> This way around any wobbly mistake will be a cut into the waste, the other way you'd cut into the workpiece
> Or you can add a spacer to the fence above the highest part of the rebate, so leaving a safe drop-out space for the waste with no risk of it being picked up and shot out.
> Apologies for crude sketch - just trying out back of envelope and the computers own camera! Quite handy, must do this more often!
> ...




If I had a lot to do it would be pretty much as Jacob does except being a barbarian I would use a dado blade. Then there is no leftovers to kick back since it is all turned into sawdust. I would however add a "shelf" to his Packing Piece that would cover the top of the blade by several inches out and front and back to keep the hands out of the blade area between cuts. The Packing Piece can then be solid to the table with the dado blade raised up into it. Full contact of the work against the fence until after the blade. 

Posted to show a different take of the same problem, not necessarily advocating its use by the OP. 

I don't like router tables for this kind of cut unless doing non thru cuts. 

Pete


----------



## Jacob (21 Feb 2021)

RichD1 said:


> I am totally risk adverse as I recently lost the top 8mm off my index finger on the left hand whilst using my bandsaw. I was rough size the sticks ready for thicknessing. The height of the workpiece was 100mm so quite a lot of blade exposed. I think it was complacency as it was on the last cut of 20 odd sticks. Strange, never felt a thing until I noticed the workpiece was covered in blood!!!! I consider myself very lucky that it wasn't more of the finger.
> 
> At the moment I'm favouring the router option but need to find something to support the wood on the outfeed side. I do have several fingerboards so this may be enough Just measured the table and it has about 40cm on both sides of the cutter.
> 
> Richard


It's repetitive work where slips are most likely to happen and safe procedures most need setting up.
2 push sticks being the simplest - if you get it wrong you just lose a bit of push stick. If you get into the habit your fingers are never nearer than 6 inches or so to a moving blade or cutter and the chance of accident is vanishingly small.
The standard push stick is cleverer than it looks - you can very the pressure from the mouth to the tip, or to both, with a lot of control. Make copies from mdf or ply - they are consumables, your fingers are not!






PS and they are not called "sticks" they are stiles, rails, glazing bars, pulley stiles, linings, staff beads....etc etc


----------



## LBCarpentry (21 Feb 2021)

Blimey Richard! You think the saw is risky?? Last week you were going to tenon and mould everything on a spindle moulder even though you had zero experience with using one??


----------



## LBCarpentry (21 Feb 2021)

Have you actually squared & planed your stock or is it simply sawn to the dimensions?


----------



## Spectric (22 Feb 2021)

Hi

Now I can see what you are looking to achieve, you have the same issue with using a table saw or the router. It is something that took me a while to get to grips with but think I now have got it. You need to look at what comes out of the router cutter, is there sufficient material to support the workpiece following the cut.

This comes down to forward planing, think how you are going to perform the task before just going for it, something I did not do and would end up with the last section of profile a mess because as it left the cutter there was nothing supporting it, now I apply forward planing. In your task you have a few options.

1) Make several support pieces that you can use double sided tape to hold to the fence just past the cutter, set cutter height to the support piece and make your first passes on all the workpieces.

2) Change the support piece for the next one, and raise the cutter to the new height and again make your passes on all the workpieces.

3) Continue until at final size

Another method I have used is to remove all the material except leaving an edge of material to act as the support. Last task is then to just remove this remaining edge.


----------



## Jacob (22 Feb 2021)

RichD1 said:


> ......... I recently lost the top 8mm off my index finger on the left hand whilst using my bandsaw. ......





Spectric said:


> Hi
> 
> Now I can see what you are looking to achieve, you have the same issue with using a table saw or the router. It is something that took me a while to get to grips with but think I now have got it. You need to look at what comes out of the router cutter, is there sufficient material to support the workpiece following the cut.
> 
> ...


You don't need support pieces of any sort as long as there is enough flat face left on the workpiece to keep it straight against the out-feed fence.
In fact "support pieces" can screw up the job - if there's any error or wobble then the support piece picks this up and replicates it along the whole length
If not enough flat then you last suggestion would work better.


----------



## Doug71 (22 Feb 2021)

If you go with the router table this is the kind of thing people mean by a support piece attached to the fence, it fills the rebate so the timber doesn't "wobble".


----------



## Jacob (22 Feb 2021)

Doug71 said:


> If you go with the router table this is the kind of thing people mean by a support piece attached to the fence, it fills the rebate so the timber doesn't "wobble".
> 
> View attachment 104272


But it won't wobble until the last few mm go past the in-feed fence and it won't wobble then either if the feather-board, shaw-guard whatever, bears firmly on the _flat_ part of the moulding
But if it does wobble at all for whatever reason your support piece will pick up on the wobble and set the remaining length off line too. Bin there dunnit!


----------



## RichD1 (22 Feb 2021)

LBCarpentry said:


> Have you actually squared & planed your stock or is it simply sawn to the dimensions?



I've already squared and planed the sticks (sorry, rails, stiles or whatever there're called) ready for rebating.

Richard


----------



## RichD1 (22 Feb 2021)

LBCarpentry said:


> Blimey Richard! You think the saw is risky?? Last week you were going to tenon and mould everything on a spindle moulder even though you had zero experience with using one??



Not me, I don't have a spindle moulder!

Richard


----------



## Jacob (22 Feb 2021)

RichD1 said:


> I've already squared and planed the sticks (sorry, rails, stiles or whatever there're called) ready for rebating.
> 
> Richard


Mortices, and tenon cheeks, first, then mouldings and rebates, then tenon shoulders last.


----------



## Doug71 (22 Feb 2021)

It would be good if you can make your rebates a bit deeper for the DG units, 15mm would be better.


----------



## RichD1 (23 Feb 2021)

I'm going to use thin wall DGU which has 8mm spacers.

Richard


----------



## RichD1 (27 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> Mortices, and tenon cheeks, first, then mouldings and rebates, then tenon shoulders last.



Just read this. I was going to do rebates first and then mortices and finally the tenons. Watched a guy on Youtube do it this way.

Any problems with this?

Back to looking at doing TS rebates. I like the idea of being able to use the waste as the moulding for the glazing.

Richard


----------



## Doug71 (27 Feb 2021)

RichD1 said:


> Just read this. I was going to do rebates first and then mortices and finally the tenons. Watched a guy on Youtube do it this way.
> 
> Any problems with this?
> 
> Richard



No right or wrong way, it all depends what kit you have and how you are doing it.


----------



## Jacob (27 Feb 2021)

Doug71 said:


> No right or wrong way, it all depends what kit you have and how you are doing it.


Generally it's easier to mark up everything and cut the mortices and the tenon-cheeks whilst everything is still square, not least because you can still see the marks.
It's easier to strike the rebates and mouldings before the tenon shoulders are cut. Just leaves the tenon shoulders to cut last.
It also helps to have stiles/rails a bit over length ("horns") as long as possible so you have more timber bearing on the fences of your machine or hand tools. 
The horns also protect the corners while you bash away at the rest of the job, then as a last thing you also get a very neat finish if you saw/plane off the horns and sticking out tenons very last thing.


----------



## Doug71 (27 Feb 2021)

Bradshaw Joinery is worth a look on Youtube if you haven't seen him. He does a nice little series on building a casement window, although I'm not a fan of how he cuts the tenons on the table saw.


----------



## RichD1 (28 Feb 2021)

I need to make a higher fence for my TS to allow the top weatherboards to be clamped. Is was thinking of using 25mm MDF which I've used before for router jigs. Is there anything better?

Richard


----------



## Jacob (28 Feb 2021)

RichD1 said:


> I need to make a higher fence for my TS to allow the top weatherboards to be clamped. Is was thinking of using 25mm MDF which I've used before for router jigs. Is there anything better?
> 
> Richard


I guess you mean featherboards? 
25mm if that's what you've got, but anything will do above about 10mm


----------



## RichD1 (10 Mar 2021)

I’ve decided to go with the TS method so dug it out from the back of the workshop to set it up and cut some feather boards.

I have to make a higher fence as the Scheppach TS4010 only came with a low ally section. For the featherboards I’m going to make two for the fence; one in front of the blade and one just behind. The one on the table I’m not sure about. I think I should only make a longer one on the infeed side with the end about 25mm in from the blade tip. See attached photo.

Richard


----------



## RichD1 (10 Mar 2021)

Just giving the feather boards more thought and not wanting to jam the blade, would fitting of the side feather boards as attached photo be the best solution. Raising them like this would allow me to put a further one on the outfeed side as the pressure will be applied to above the saw tips. The ones on the I infeed would be fixed to the table.

Richard


----------



## Jacob (10 Mar 2021)

Er. hmm, I see problems here! Maybe go back to plan A and use the router?
Your second cut drawing particularly bad - as shown the thin waste against slot already cut would be springy and the featherboard could push it out of alignment. It would do that anyway at the end of the cut when the waste is no longer supporting the workpiece at all. There'd be a deep nick at the end of each piece, or worse if it got picked up and pulled back in.
Also you have no "safe space" for the waste and it will get flung out like a crossbow bolt
Plan A!


----------



## RichD1 (10 Mar 2021)

It was why I thought it would be better to space the featherboard up and pushing against the main stock rather than on the slot being cut.

I originally asked you about have the waste on the other side of the blade to provide a safe place for the waste but you were concerned about any wobble would impact into the main section. Do you think this would still be a major problem especially with the featherboards raised?


----------



## Jacob (10 Mar 2021)

RichD1 said:


> It was why I thought it would be better to space the featherboard up and pushing against the main stock rather than on the slot being cut.
> 
> I originally asked you about have the waste on the other side of the blade to provide a safe place for the waste but you were concerned about any wobble would impact into the main section. Do you think this would still be a major problem especially with the featherboards raised?


Stick with the router! If you do have a go with the TS do a lot of small trial rebates first


----------



## RichD1 (10 Mar 2021)

OK. Thanks for advice. Need to make some sort of outfeed support for the router table now then.

Richard


----------



## toolsntat (11 Mar 2021)

I'd certainly be doing this on the saw.
I'd only use a router if saw wasn't available. Way too much dust and noise for my liking.
Swapping the cuts around though (1 for 2 and 2 for 1) and having rebate/waste against sub fence which is sitting above waste height.
No side pressure needed but an additional side batten/guide on the saw bed will keep things lined up nicely on both passes.
Cheers Andy


----------



## RichD1 (11 Mar 2021)

Just one final thought before I abandon the TS method and work on the Router jigs. What if on the 2nd cut of the rebate I take a kerf width off on the first pass to provide 'safe space' for the waste on the next pass?

Richard


----------



## Doug71 (11 Mar 2021)

In your situation I would say the router table sounds the best option.


----------



## RichD1 (11 Mar 2021)

toolsntat said:


> I'd certainly be doing this on the saw.
> I'd only use a router if saw wasn't available. Way too much dust and noise for my liking.
> Swapping the cuts around though (1 for 2 and 2 for 1) and having rebate/waste against sub fence which is sitting above waste height.
> No side pressure needed but an additional side batten/guide on the saw bed will keep things lined up nicely on both passes.
> Cheers Andy



Quite like your suggestion Andy, but not sure why you would alter the sequence of cuts. I would assume that making the 34mm cut first when there was more stock around and then do the 14mm cut where the chances of any binding would be much less would be better.

Richard


----------



## RichD1 (22 Mar 2021)

Hi Guys, thanks for all your help and advice. 20 rebates cut in just over an hour. Dread to think how long a router would take. I’m amazed at the finish straight off the TS, again probably better than off the router where I would have had to moved the fences and feather boards at least 4 times to get the depth and width.

Thanks again, Richard.


----------

