# Anyone experienced with extra large workshop builds in a UK garden?



## xavierx6

Hi everyone, 

I require a very large home workshop. 
I have found a potential house with a 40x160ft rear garden (plus front garden) 

I would be wanting to build a very large workshop in the region of 30x100foot to the rear of the garden, which of course would require both planning and building regs

Before I go any further, I was wondering if anyone has experience with extra large workshops? 

Are there any planning restrictions that would stop me from being able to achieve such a thing (or would planning departments take a negative view on such a large building in a residential garden) 

I basically wanted to find out if anyone has had experience in getting such a thing approved, or am I wasting my time even thinking about it? 

Thanks in advance for your help


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## Adam W.

Phone them up and ask, it's the only way you'll get a relevant reply to your area.


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## akirk

30x100 foot is a 3,000 sqft building - that is vast... bigger than most residential properties... and will completely dominate the garden / surroundings.
If I were a neighbour I would be objecting very strongly on the basis that you would be devaluing my house considerably!
Is it possible to have a residential plot with an outbuilding that size - yes, I know of a bungalow (on a bigger plot though) with an agricultural barn in the garden - but it is probably quite historic (though a modern building now), so I suspect it came from an era of easier planning decisions.

The other issue is usage - the usual expectation for anything in the grounds of a residential building is that it is incidental to the use of the main building (home workshop yes, large industrial unit no! I would expect you to need a change of use to industrial not residential and would have thought that unlikely... it may well be the use not the size of building that is the biggest issue...

best bet would be to find a planning consultant - planning departments are now notoriously unhelpful and would probably tell you to submit before they will comment, a planning consultant would know the likelihood of your getting something through planning...


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## Blackswanwood

The answer to your question is “it depends”. Is it for hobby or business use? Will it fit in without impacting anyone else? Is it proportionate to the house? etc etc. As the previous replies have said you need to either talk to a Planning Officer (not always that easy) or get professional advice.


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## doctor Bob

I think there will be objections and I seriously doubt planning will pass it.


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## Woody2Shoes

As others have said, the best way is to check with the Local Planning Authority.

I think it's highly unlikely that something that large would be considered "domestic" (!), in any situation in England/Wales. If the site is in a Conservation Area or a National Park, forget it. If there is an Article 4 Direction in place (the LPA should be able to say), or if there are restrictive covenants (visible via the Land Registry, if the land ownership is already registered) - again, forget it.

Your best bet is perhaps to find an agricultural/equine property and use agriculture as a justification i.e. a barn-type structure.

Are you aware of the changes to the Permitted Development rules which allow retail/business premises to be (partially or fully) converted to domestic use? Acquiring a business unit - with scope to convert part to domestic - might be another route.


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## Cabinetman

I thought my workshop was quite large enough for me to rattle around in at 40‘ x 15‘ sometimes it’s a little long and thin, but yours is going to be ten and a half times the size! You say it’s a home workshop, what do you plan to do in there, Flying Scotsman rebuild? Or maybe you know something we don’t and it’s Xavier's Ark


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## Farmer Giles

I built a 26m x 6m part-stone barn on two storeys that contains my 20m x 6m workshop upstairs. It's on a smallholding but still needed planning. I knew it would be difficult to get planning so I paid a planning consultant to apply, she used to work for the council and knew exactly how to word everything, just enough, not too much to open up to other questions. My neighbours were astounded that planning went through first time. I did get one crazy planning restriction that I had to consent to, but I didn't comply and nobody has ever checked.

They wanted me to put a stone roof on the steel frame building to "blend in with all the other barns in the area". None of the other barns have stone roofs as it costs a fortune and weighs a load, about a tonne for every 5 sq metres if memory serves me correctly, it would have double the steel costs and probably trebled the overall cost of the building.


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## Dabop

30 x 100ft- thats a warehouse....
in metres thats 9 x 30m....

I have a farm shed here thats slightly smaller- 9x25m (4 bays, so yours would be a 5 bay equivalent of mine... another 'door' longer in other words...)
But mines on 30 acres....
big difference....
To give you an idea of the size we are talking about...
(under construction- 3 'hibays' and the fourth is a 'lowbay leanto' ie my workshop eventually)





overhead drone shot... yours would be the same depth but extend past the watertank on the right- ie that tank would be inside your shed... (the white ute is a Toyota Hilux for scale- you could 'squeeze' 4 per bay in at a pinch- so yours could hold 20 against mine holding 16 of them....)

That's a BIG shed..... especially for a relatively small backyard- most of the yard would be inside the shed!!!
(remember that the shed is only 10ft narrower than the yard so my back wall right on one side fence line- and you would struggle to open both front doors on the hilux in that pic without hitting the other side fence- and with my lefthand wall hard up against the fenceline at the back, that caravan would pretty much be at the back wall of your house....)

Chances of approval- buckleys imho


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## TRITON

xavierx6 said:


> I was wondering if anyone has experience with extra large workshops?


Only in our dreams


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## Peri

TRITON said:


> Only in our dreams



Normally just after I've thrown away another 2 quid on the Euromillions.


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## paulrbarnard

If it is in a residential area I think you are irresponsible for even considering it. You would, quite rightly, be the pariah of the neighbourhood. If it was suggested in my area I would be objecting, petitioning and generally raising mayhem about it.


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## RichardG

You need to find a farm with a suitable barn or a large barn with a smaller house/piggery/stable that you convert into a house. Alternatively you may be able to find a property that backs onto an industrial estate.


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## Adam W.

paulrbarnard said:


> If it is in a residential area I think you are irresponsible for even considering it. You would, quite rightly, be the pariah of the neighbourhood. If it was suggested in my area I would be objecting, petitioning and generally raising mayhem about it.



I've got a nice pitchfork and spare flaming torch if you want it. 

Although seeings you're from Shepton you could go to Pilton and get your supplies there, it'll be closer and Eavis has probably got some discarded ones going cheap.


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## highwood122

xavierx6 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I require a very large home workshop.
> I have found a potential house with a 40x160ft rear garden (plus front garden)
> 
> I would be wanting to build a very large workshop in the region of 30x100foot to the rear of the garden, which of course would require both planning and building regs
> 
> Before I go any further, I was wondering if anyone has experience with extra large workshops?
> 
> Are there any planning restrictions that would stop me from being able to achieve such a thing (or would planning departments take a negative view on such a large building in a residential garden)
> 
> I basically wanted to find out if anyone has had experience in getting such a thing approved, or am I wasting my time even thinking about it?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help


hi, my local planners said the wokshop was not in proportion with the bungalow, so i made the bungalow higher and longer which was part of my long term plan anyway. result


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## highwood122

highwood122 said:


> hi, my local planners said the wokshop was not in proportion with the bungalow, so i made the bungalow higher and longer which was part of my long term plan anyway. result


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## shed9

xavierx6 said:


> I have found a potential house with a 40x160ft rear garden (plus front garden)
> I would be wanting to build a very large workshop in the region of 30x100foot to the rear of the garden, which of course would require both planning and building regs


That's at least 47% of the rear curtilage.


xavierx6 said:


> I require a very large home workshop.


3000 sq ft is not a large home workshop, that's a commercial venture. As others have pointed out this is irresponsible in the context of the neighbours (assuming there are any of course) and probably needs something more commercial than domestic in setting.

Don't be put off by the comments, you asked and people answered honestly. Welcome to the forum (genuinely).


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## Peterm1000

This is clearly a pretty crazy idea, but unless you live in a house with some kind of restrictive covenant, you can cover up to half of the land around your house with outbuildings providing they are not more than 2.5m high with a flat roof and 4 metres with a pitched roof - whatever the neighbours think. However, I think you are going to struggle to get a building 9 metres wide to have a suitable roof pitch to pass building regs AND stay under 4 metres.


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## giantbeat

have you considered, just renting an actual workshop lol...


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## LJM

giantbeat said:


> have you considered, just renting an actual workshop lol...



indeed! Rare is the house that gains value through most of the garden being consumed by a massive shed... it probably makes more financial sense to rent a real workshop. Or buy one.


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## Sachakins

Questions.
Is it for personal use, for hobbyists.
Is it for personal use, for professional hobbyist, to sell on occasionally.
Is it for personal use, for small scale production runs.
Is it for personal use, with hired staff as a business.
Is it a SME business, with contracted workforce.

Or is it just another Warehouse for Amazon or EBAY stock.

I've worked in full scale businesses with smaller square footage than your intending.


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## xavierx6

Adam W. said:


> Phone them up and ask, it's the only way you'll get a relevant reply to your area.



I have tried this, they are absolutely not willing to tell me whether it is vaguely possible or not without me submitting plans. As I don't own the house, I don't think I can justify the planning cost for speculation


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## xavierx6

paulrbarnard said:


> If it is in a residential area I think you are irresponsible for even considering it. You would, quite rightly, be the pariah of the neighbourhood. If it was suggested in my area I would be objecting, petitioning and generally raising mayhem about it.



Why? I've never in my life considered objecting to my neighbours plans. It's none of my business what other people do with their land if it doesn't affect me


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## xavierx6

giantbeat said:


> have you considered, just renting an actual workshop lol...



Yes, but with rent and business rates, then a second lot of utilities to pay for, it would cost more than a mortgage, plus I would have no way of retaining the rented premises once I retired, so would have to give everything up at some point


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## xavierx6

LJM said:


> indeed! Rare is the house that gains value through most of the garden being consumed by a massive shed... it probably makes more financial sense to rent a real workshop. Or buy one.



This move is hopefully to be the last one in my life, so adding value would be of no consideration to me. Renting a workshop is absolutely not a consideration (see above answer) and the cheapest commercial unit I can find of this size in an absolutely dog rough area near me would be £330k, which I can't afford as well las a house. It would be around £50k in comparison for foundation work + commercial workshop of the size I listed to be built.


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## xavierx6

Sachakins said:


> Questions.
> Is it for personal use, for hobbyists.
> Is it for personal use, for professional hobbyist, to sell on occasionally.
> Is it for personal use, for small scale production runs.
> Is it for personal use, with hired staff as a business.
> Is it a SME business, with contracted workforce.
> 
> Or is it just another Warehouse for Amazon or EBAY stock.
> 
> I've worked in full scale businesses with smaller square footage than your intending.



It is entirely hobby.

I collect and restore large items 

I currently own all of the things that would fill a 3000sq ft workshop

I have a little under that space currently over multiple buildings / sheds / garages

It's always been a dream to have everything layed out properly in one purpose built building. 

I will require this space for the rest of my life / past retirement


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## xavierx6

Peterm1000 said:


> This is clearly a pretty crazy idea, but unless you live in a house with some kind of restrictive covenant, you can cover up to half of the land around your house with outbuildings providing they are not more than 2.5m high with a flat roof and 4 metres with a pitched roof - whatever the neighbours think. However, I think you are going to struggle to get a building 9 metres wide to have a suitable roof pitch to pass building regs AND stay under 4 metres.



National Steel Buildings can apparently do so, and supplied with drawing and specs for building regs. I'll be honest I have not verified building reg requirements at this conceptual stage.


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## xavierx6

shed9 said:


> That's at least 47% of the rear curtilage.
> 
> 3000 sq ft is not a large home workshop, that's a commercial venture. As others have pointed out this is irresponsible in the context of the neighbours (assuming there are any of course) and probably needs something more commercial than domestic in setting.
> 
> Don't be put off by the comments, you asked and people answered honestly. Welcome to the forum (genuinely).



I don't think I am understanding things from a neighbour point of view.

So far I have been lucky that when I have run my current projects past neighbours they have been fine, and I would personally not object to my neighbours doing whatever they want as long as it did not restrict access to my property.

I would not have any reason to object if a neighbour of mine wanted to do exactly what I am proposing, so it's hard to me to imagine why some people on here are indicating how angry they would be. 

For the record I live in a very low income town where people are not so much concerned with keeping up appearances and what people might think at the next dinner party


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## xavierx6

shed9 said:


> Don't be put off by the comments, you asked and people answered honestly. Welcome to the forum (genuinely).



Thankyou, it's no problem at all, everyone is free to speak their mind as far as I am concerned


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## LJM

If you’re to get anywhere with planning. It’s important that you do understand that not everyone thinks the same; a lot of people can be touchy about what gets built next door and it’s nothing to do with keeping up appearances!

So, two things to do:

1. employ a planning consultant. They will save you time and money
2. Approach all the neighbours who may be affected ie all properties adjacent to, overlooking or overlooked by yours. And probably all in the street because a reasonable concern of the neighbours (and the planning authority) will be that you intend running a business from such large premises.

Good luck


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## Peterm1000

xavierx6 said:


> National Steel Buildings can apparently do so, and supplied with drawing and specs for building regs. I'll be honest I have not verified building reg requirements at this conceptual stage.



Under permitted development, you can build this without planning permission, but you will need to pass building regs. Here's where the problems come. For a pitched roof building, you cannot be taller than 4 metres. At a 30 degree pitch, the roof alone on a 9 metre wide building would be almost 3m tall. If you are less than 1 metre tall, that might work. On a "flat roofed" building, you need to be under 2.5 metres, but you need a 1 in 40 fall to make sure water drains. That means your building cannot be more than 2.2m tall on one side. Take off 20cm for the roof structure (although I would think it would be at least double that) and your building is very low inside.

I am sure the building you are describing is well over 4 metres tall - probably more like a 6 metres. It's like building a large bungalow in your back garden but less attractive.

Good luck with the planning - glad to see this plan is nowhere near me!


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## LJM

I’m surprised such a large structure, taking such a significant proportion of the available space falls within permitted development! But PeterM seems to know his onions on this.

I’m also surprised that it can be done for £50k, including groundworks; I’d definitely be checking what’s included/excluded in that price, and assumptions upon which it’s based.


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## xavierx6

LJM said:


> If you’re to get anywhere with planning. It’s important that you do understand that not everyone thinks the same; a lot of people can be touchy about what gets built next door and it’s nothing to do with keeping up appearances!
> 
> So, two things to do:
> 
> 1. employ a planning consultant. They will save you time and money
> 2. Approach all the neighbours who may be affected ie all properties adjacent to, overlooking or overlooked by yours. And probably all in the street because a reasonable concern of the neighbours (and the planning authority) will be that you intend running a business from such large premises.
> 
> Good luck



A couple of people in the thread seemed to get genuinely angry by the very idea of such a workshop existing, but they never explained why, so I am no closer to understanding.
Like I say, I am in a low income area so people are not concerned with keeping up appearances, so my current neighbours let me do what I want and I let them do what they want. One house even has a garage built right up to the pavement. There is no way that has planning permission, but if no one has complained, no one is going to enforce it.

So just to clarify, I am not at this stage applying for planning or consulting neighbours, I have just seen a local property for sale in my budget, with an unusually large rear garden and wanted to know if my dream of having a single open plan workshop is possible, meaning the move would be a good idea, or if it's absolutely a NO and neighbours are going to chase me out of the town with pitchforks, then I will have to stay where I am now. I currently have over 2000sq foot, but in multiple buildings some cramped and or awkwardly placed


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## LJM

Well it depends how serious you are about the potential move; as you’ve found out, planning departments don’t advise. So, to only way to move this beyond a hypothetical is to engage with neighbours and a planning consultant. They may be able to give you a simple answer free of charge, if only in the form of “yes we can help you” or “no, we can not help you”, but possibly a short, initial consultation.

For questions here to be of much use, you’d really have to understand the experience and qualifications of each respondent, in order to know the value of their answers.


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## akirk

This is a good place to start with what you are allowed to do etc.:




__





Planning Portal


The home of planning and building regulations information in England and the national online planning application service. Submit planning applications and building control applications online through the Planning Portal and find easy to understand guidance about planning permission and building...




www.planningportal.co.uk





more specifically here:




__





Planning Permission - Outbuildings - Planning Portal


Details of the planning permission and building regulation regimes for Outbuildings in England




www.planningportal.co.uk





Outbuildings are considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:

No outbuilding on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation.
Outbuildings and garages to be single storey with maximum eaves height of 2.5 metres and maximum overall height of four metres with a dual pitched roof or three metres for any other roof.
Maximum height of 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within _two_ metres of a boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.
No verandas, balconies or raised platforms (a platform must not exceed 0.3 metres in height)
No more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
In National Parks, the Broads, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and World Heritage Sites the maximum area to be covered by buildings, enclosures, containers and pools more than 20 metres from the house to be limited to 10 square metres.
On designated land* buildings, enclosures, containers and pools at the side of properties will require planning permission.
Within the curtilage of listed buildings any outbuilding will require planning permission.
So - your restrictions are single-storey / max eaves and overall height (2.5 and 4m - if more than 2m from a boundary) / no more than 50% of the plot other than the house

Permissive development encompasses a wide range of options, and you can in fact build quite large buildings without requiring planning permission - as mentioned above, there are restrictions on what you can do, e.g. roof height for a pitched roof is a maximum of 4m in height - and if you had one pitched roof, that might not work on that size building - however there are other options, so you could have a multi-peaked roof - hard to describe, but imagine building a series of sheds next to each other your roof would go up and down - now take out the walls and you would have one large building with the correct roof pitch, and height etc - a more complex roof and you would have to deal with drainage in the gullies - but it is possible...

based on that...
you want 30ft wide in an overall 40ft width - this would leave you 5ft from either boundary - that will restrict your roof height to 2.5m if you knocked off an extra ft+ each side to bring it to 2m from the boundary, then your roof height can be 4m - it will make a big difference. Other than that - you are just under 50% of the back garden, so if you are single storey and can keep the roof height as required, it would suggest that you can build this on the basis of permissive development and you will not need planning... I think that as a neighbour I would still object (may have no grounds, but... ) alternatively I would be over playing with your tools and joining in!

you will still need building regs - but that is HOW you build it not CAN YOU build it...


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## Peterm1000

akirk said:


> This is a good place to start with what you are allowed to do etc.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Planning Portal
> 
> 
> The home of planning and building regulations information in England and the national online planning application service. Submit planning applications and building control applications online through the Planning Portal and find easy to understand guidance about planning permission and building...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.planningportal.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> more specifically here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Planning Permission - Outbuildings - Planning Portal
> 
> 
> Details of the planning permission and building regulation regimes for Outbuildings in England
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.planningportal.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outbuildings are considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:
> 
> No outbuilding on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation.
> Outbuildings and garages to be single storey with maximum eaves height of 2.5 metres and maximum overall height of four metres with a dual pitched roof or three metres for any other roof.
> Maximum height of 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within _two_ metres of a boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.
> No verandas, balconies or raised platforms (a platform must not exceed 0.3 metres in height)
> No more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
> In National Parks, the Broads, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and World Heritage Sites the maximum area to be covered by buildings, enclosures, containers and pools more than 20 metres from the house to be limited to 10 square metres.
> On designated land* buildings, enclosures, containers and pools at the side of properties will require planning permission.
> Within the curtilage of listed buildings any outbuilding will require planning permission.
> So - your restrictions are single-storey / max eaves and overall height (2.5 and 4m - if more than 2m from a boundary) / no more than 50% of the plot other than the house
> 
> Permissive development encompasses a wide range of options, and you can in fact build quite large buildings without requiring planning permission - as mentioned above, there are restrictions on what you can do, e.g. roof height for a pitched roof is a maximum of 4m in height - and if you had one pitched roof, that might not work on that size building - however there are other options, so you could have a multi-peaked roof - hard to describe, but imagine building a series of sheds next to each other your roof would go up and down - now take out the walls and you would have one large building with the correct roof pitch, and height etc - a more complex roof and you would have to deal with drainage in the gullies - but it is possible...
> 
> based on that...
> you want 30ft wide in an overall 40ft width - this would leave you 5ft from either boundary - that will restrict your roof height to 2.5m if you knocked off an extra ft+ each side to bring it to 2m from the boundary, then your roof height can be 4m - it will make a big difference. Other than that - you are just under 50% of the back garden, so if you are single storey and can keep the roof height as required, it would suggest that you can build this on the basis of permissive development and you will not need planning... I think that as a neighbour I would still object (may have no grounds, but... ) alternatively I would be over playing with your tools and joining in!
> 
> you will still need building regs - but that is HOW you build it not CAN YOU build it...



Good idea on the multi-pitched roof. I had not thought of that. The other thing is that the building height is measured from the highest natural ground level. I have a shed in my garden that is 4.5 metres tall from the bottom of the base to the top of the roof, but it is built on a slope and cut into the ground so that it is 4 metres tall from the highest part of the slope. You may find that if you are prepared to have some of the building below natural ground level, you can have a larger building with less impact on the neighbours.

£50k feels very light to me. They estimate agricultural buildings to average £50 a square foot and a basic domestic building would be double that. Plus you will have to find someone to do the design (a couple of thousand) and get a structural engineer to confirm various bits and pieces (another thousand or so) and then building control on top of that. I would be amazed if you could build a 3000sq foot building in a domestic garden for much less than £100k.

I think the deeds of the property would tell you if there are any restrictive covenants and your lawyer's searches will tell you whether you do have permitted development rights (lots of people have restricted rights so the above doesn't apply).

I am sure different people have different viewpoints and different tolerance levels, but I am not sure I would want a 3000sq foot "shed" built 2 metres away from my property.


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## LJM

Where a building is planned under permitted development, is there any official channel for complaint or opposition?


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## akirk

LJM said:


> Where a building is planned under permitted development, is there any official channel for complaint or opposition?


nope - permitted is exactly that...
there are a number of potential complications though - from PD (Permitted Development) having been removed (tends to be on more recent new builds, but could happen as a part of an earlier planning permission grant) - to possible issues if in a conservation area, to curtilage etc. of listed buildings - so it isn't an absolute always yes, but generally speaking you are allowed to do what you like if it meets the permitted development rules - and then building control manages how safe / standards / etc.



Peterm1000 said:


> I am sure different people have different viewpoints and different tolerance levels, but I am not sure I would want a 3000sq foot "shed" built 2 metres away from my property.



I would tend to agree, but it does depend a lot on the context - for example a village in which I lived was in a farming area, some of the older properties did have actual farm buildings of this type of size in their gardens - in another road, you drive into what appears to be a suburban detached house driveway, but go past the house and you are in their farmyard with a number of farm buildings - very different from road to behind... equally other areas may have industrial buildings - if you look at the history of London it is packed with buildings in certain areas where you have houses on the street, but go down an alleyway and you are in a Victorian factory of some type... so it is not unknown, and the OP seems comfortable that it won't be an issue - his biggest concern is whether he might buy the property and then not get planning... ultimately if he can build under PD then that is not an issue - up to him how he might manage neighbourly relationships...

and I would be very jealous of 3,000sqft of space!


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## LJM

akirk said:


> nope - permitted is exactly that...
> there are a number of potential complications though - from PD (Permitted Development) having been removed (tends to be on more recent new builds, but could happen as a part of an earlier planning permission grant) - to possible issues if in a conservation area, to curtilage etc. of listed buildings - so it isn't an absolute always yes, but generally speaking you are allowed to do what you like if it meets the permitted development rules - and then building control manages how safe / standards / etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I would tend to agree, but it does depend a lot on the context - for example a village in which I lived was in a farming area, some of the older properties did have actual farm buildings of this type of size in their gardens - in another road, you drive into what appears to be a suburban detached house driveway, but go past the house and you are in their farmyard with a number of farm buildings - very different from road to behind... equally other areas may have industrial buildings - if you look at the history of London it is packed with buildings in certain areas where you have houses on the street, but go down an alleyway and you are in a Victorian factory of some type... so it is not unknown, and the OP seems comfortable that it won't be an issue - his biggest concern is whether he might buy the property and then not get planning... ultimately if he can build under PD then that is not an issue - up to him how he might manage neighbourly relationships...
> 
> and I would be very jealous of 3,000sqft of space!



I think that is the OP’s question answered!


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## paulrbarnard

xavierx6 said:


> Why? I've never in my life considered objecting to my neighbours plans. It's none of my business what other people do with their land if it doesn't affect me


You either have great neighbours or have never been on the end of a development killing your enjoyment of the area.


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## Peterm1000

akirk said:


> nope - permitted is exactly that...
> there are a number of potential complications though - from PD (Permitted Development) having been removed (tends to be on more recent new builds, but could happen as a part of an earlier planning permission grant) - to possible issues if in a conservation area, to curtilage etc. of listed buildings - so it isn't an absolute always yes, but generally speaking you are allowed to do what you like if it meets the permitted development rules - and then building control manages how safe / standards / etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I would tend to agree, but it does depend a lot on the context - for example a village in which I lived was in a farming area, some of the older properties did have actual farm buildings of this type of size in their gardens - in another road, you drive into what appears to be a suburban detached house driveway, but go past the house and you are in their farmyard with a number of farm buildings - very different from road to behind... equally other areas may have industrial buildings - if you look at the history of London it is packed with buildings in certain areas where you have houses on the street, but go down an alleyway and you are in a Victorian factory of some type... so it is not unknown, and the OP seems comfortable that it won't be an issue - his biggest concern is whether he might buy the property and then not get planning... ultimately if he can build under PD then that is not an issue - up to him how he might manage neighbourly relationships...
> 
> and I would be very jealous of 3,000sqft of space!


I think permitted development allows the building to be built, but there are all kinds of restrictions about how it can be used. You can't do anything commercial and if you are causing a "nuisance" by running power tools 8 hours a day in a building that isn't noise-proof or doing work that results in foul smells or sending smoke or dust out into the atmosphere, they will have reason to complain and get an enforcement notice.

In other words, you might be able to build it, but if you do any kind of activity that such a building might be built for, then the council can stop you using it.

I would say it's a pretty high risk project


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## Peterm1000

Take a look at the plans in the attached - this doesn't look that different in size to what you are planning... 4.2 metres high.









Project build:-Planning permission granted, now for building regs.


Hi, Just gained planning permission for the workshop in the attached file. It is going to be a timber frame with a traditional corrugated iron skin and will be insulated between studs and rafters with under screed insulation in the floor (which is another problem, it needs to hold up a couple...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## doctor Bob

Peterm1000 said:


> Take a look at the plans in the attached - this doesn't look that different in size to what you are planning... 4.2 metres high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project build:-Planning permission granted, now for building regs.
> 
> 
> Hi, Just gained planning permission for the workshop in the attached file. It is going to be a timber frame with a traditional corrugated iron skin and will be insulated between studs and rafters with under screed insulation in the floor (which is another problem, it needs to hold up a couple...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukworkshop.co.uk




Peter that's 9x7m, the proposal by the OP is 28m x 8.5m, 4 times bigger.

I can't believe anyone thinks this is going to be allowed, any money spent on planners, applications is a pure waste of time.


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## akirk

Peterm1000 said:


> I think permitted development allows the building to be built, but there are all kinds of restrictions about how it can be used. You can't do anything commercial and if you are causing a "nuisance" by running power tools 8 hours a day in a building that isn't noise-proof or doing work that results in foul smells or sending smoke or dust out into the atmosphere, they will have reason to complain and get an enforcement notice.
> 
> In other words, you might be able to build it, but if you do any kind of activity that such a building might be built for, then the council can stop you using it.
> 
> I would say it's a pretty high risk project



I would agree - and there is a challenge in knowing where boundaries sit between hobby / personal use / commercial - and where commercial would require a change of use, personal or hobby use would not - yet there is no reason why a hobby use shouldn't use exactly the same machines as a commercial outfit - perhaps there will be a difference in not having lorries arriving to unload / load items etc. - but the noise from machines could be the same...

however I think that if the OP were to build this (and based on simply the legal position, not whether it is friendly to neighbours or not), then it could be challenging for neighbours to stop it - noise and pollution can both be an issue, but can also take long battles to enforce and the council has some powers but not absolute...




doctor Bob said:


> Peter that's 9x7m, the proposal by the OP is 28m x 8.5m, 4 times bigger.
> 
> I can't believe anyone thinks this is going to be allowed, any money spent on planners, applications is a pure waste of time.



If it falls under permitted development, then why would it not be allowed - the OP can (having bought the house) just crack on - he would need to notify building control - usually in advance, though there is a process for doing it retrospectively, and with the scale of it, you can expect that they might mention it to planning... but permitted development does allow you to build over 50% of your plot outside the footprint of the original house... (so any extensions come off that amount first)

the link I gave earlier is to a government partnership website offering guidance...
more detail can be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/830643/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

Class E is the relevant class whose conditions need to be met and that does start with:
41 Class E – buildings etc This provides permitted development rights within the curtilage of a house for: (a)any building or enclosure, swimming or other pool required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such, or the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of such a building or enclosure; or

the key here is purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse - so hobby use = okay / commercial is not = planning needed... if the OP is confident he can prove that space is for hobby, then he shouldn't have an issue... but I suspect he will have a discussion at the very least...

I think that there is an instinctive reaction which is perhaps horrified at the idea of large buildings with tools in a residential area - but that doesn't mean that it isn't allowed - it is remarkable actually what is allowed under PD.

To give one example - I know someone who owns / keeps / restores full size steam engines in what is effectively an agricultural barn in the garden of their bungalow... needs quite a large building to do that - and totally hobby, not commercial. I know someone else building his own aeroplane... we are a nation which allows for a certain degree of eccentricity and not having everyone exactly the same...


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## doctor Bob

Be an interesting building that size with a max height of 2.5m.
As it's max 5ft from boundry.


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## akirk

Hence my suggestion of losing c. 1.5 foot either side  - ultimately measurements are presumably rough until the house is owned and the OP has something accurate to measure with - I wouldn’t base anything on estate agent’s details!


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## Roseland 2

Akirk says it all very well. But do check that Permitted Development rights have not been removed (as they have where I live) under an Article 4 Direction. Your council’s online mapping service should show you this. If in doubt apply for a Certificate of Lawful Development.

Andrew


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## TomGW

For my sins I am a planning consultant, in NI, but the regulations are broadly the same. 
My best advice would be to design and secure a Certificate of Lawfulness for a PD building of the size you want, even though keeping within PD limits may result in cause engineering expense or compromises. Having secured the principle of development you could then apply for planning permission for an alternative design which may be higher but less complex. The consideration of your application must then be limited to the comparison of your secured PD position and the new proposal and a refusal could only be sustained if the difference was ‘material’ in itself. This is the way to ensure that your planning application can only focus on the height aspect and not the overall floor area.


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## Ollie78

Build it underground, like a batcave or thunderbirds base. Just leave a small permitted development sized shed/ garage on top !!

Personally, I think the planning departments and listed building nonsense should be removed, if its your land that you paid for you should be able to do as you please as long as it is safely built.

Good luck.


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## Sachakins

xavierx6 said:


> I don't think I am understanding things from a neighbour point of view.......
> ........
> For the record I live in a very low income town where people are not so much concerned with keeping up appearances and what people might think at the next dinner party



And just why does that make a difference?
Just because it's a low income does not mean they don't have pride and enjoyment it what they can do, and have the right to be concerned.
If a person living in the area your suggesting for your development is reading this, your statement could really inflame them, as implying that somehow they are lesser person for lacking money.

I donþ think that last phrase in your post does you any favours at all.


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## Chris152

I wouldn't be happy with a neighbour building that anywhere near me - even if they plan to sit and quietly paint watercolours in it, they could sell up in a year's time and who know what activities a shed like that could attract? Oooh, that place has an enormous workshop in the garden, I'll buy that one and spend all day using my industrial kit etc in there, just as a hobby of course. Endless possibilities for future disputes.


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## RobinBHM

TomGW said:


> For my sins I am a planning consultant, in NI, but the regulations are broadly the same.
> My best advice would be to design and secure a Certificate of Lawfulness for a PD building of the size you want, even though keeping within PD limits may result in cause engineering expense or compromises. Having secured the principle of development you could then apply for planning permission for an alternative design which may be higher but less complex. The consideration of your application must then be limited to the comparison of your secured PD position and the new proposal and a refusal could only be sustained if the difference was ‘material’ in itself. This is the way to ensure that your planning application can only focus on the height aspect and not the overall floor area.



This seems the most pragmatic route.

Securing a certificate of lawfulness first then a full planning app for a preferred scheme provides an automatic fall back position.

The irony of Permitted Development is some pretty large an ugly extensions can be built and often are, because planners turn down a more attractive scheme because it falls slightly outside their local planning framework.

I hate all these extensions with silly low pitches


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## RobinBHM

I have a workshop on a farm that's 7.5m x 28mm

It's pretty damn big, it wouldn't look great stuck in a back garden.


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## Peterm1000

doctor Bob said:


> Peter that's 9x7m, the proposal by the OP is 28m x 8.5m, 4 times bigger.
> 
> I can't believe anyone thinks this is going to be allowed, any money spent on planners, applications is a pure waste of time.


It was the 7 metres width that interested me. I did not think you could get a reasonable roofline at that width and stay under 4 metres. But it appears you can...


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## AlanY

I think I would be having words with a neighbour who decided to put up a 4.5m high structure 6 feet from my boundary and which stretched more than half-way down my garden. Aside from the impact on property value, if my garden is west-facing, that would put most of my garden in shade for most of the day. Permitted development be damned, that would not be acceptable.


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## Chris152

RobinBHM said:


> I have a workshop on a farm that's 7.5m x 28mm
> 
> It's pretty damn big, it wouldn't look great stuck in a back garden.


Long, but narrow.


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## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> I have a workshop on a farm that's 7.5m x 28mm
> 
> It's pretty damn big, it wouldn't look great stuck in a back garden.



I'm going to guess you make snooker cues and fishing rods as a hobby


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## Peterm1000

AlanY said:


> I think I would be having words with a neighbour who decided to put up a 4.5m high structure 6 feet from my boundary and which stretched more than half-way down my garden. Aside from the impact on property value, if my garden is west-facing, that would put most of my garden in shade for most of the day. Permitted development be damned, that would not be acceptable.


It's no more than 2.5 metres high 2 metres from your boundary. The 4 metres is the maximum height of the roof which is probably 5 metres from your property. It's unlikely to make any difference to sunlight in your garden but it would obviously be visible.


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## recipio

I don't want to hijack this thread but is it possible to build a mezzanine type structure with an industrial lift to cut down on the floor area. ? I would ask the building companies but they are all closed at present.


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## akirk

recipio said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread but is it possible to build a mezzanine type structure with an industrial lift to cut down on the floor area. ? I would ask the building companies but they are all closed at present.


That would definitely need planning - one of the requirements of permitted development is single storey and while it might be argued to be that I think you would also struggle to get a mezzanine layer into PD height...


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## MJP

AlanY said:


> I think I would be having words with a neighbour who decided to put up a 4.5m high structure 6 feet from my boundary and which stretched more than half-way down my garden. Aside from the impact on property value, if my garden is west-facing, that would put most of my garden in shade for most of the day. Permitted development be damned, that would not be acceptable.



Forty years ago I built almost exactly this - a fifty foot long workshop with a pitched roof reaching to about fifteen feet high at the apex, running along about two thirds of the boundary with my neighbour to the North, so it's on his South side.

The planning dept asked around and no-one had any objections, the next door neighbour's comment was "I can see more than I can have anyway".

Now, the current owners are perfectly happy with a high boundary wall since they like their privacy. 

Takes all sorts...one man's meat and so on.

Martin.


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## xavierx6

akirk said:


> Hence my suggestion of losing c. 1.5 foot either side  - ultimately measurements are presumably rough until the house is owned and the OP has something accurate to measure with - I wouldn’t base anything on estate agent’s details!



This is a perfectly sensible suggestion if I were to go ahead with what I proposed, it would certainly give more flexibility with the roof


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## xavierx6

Roseland 2 said:


> Akirk says it all very well. But do check that Permitted Development rights have not been removed (as they have where I live) under an Article 4 Direction. Your council’s online mapping service should show you this. If in doubt apply for a Certificate of Lawful Development.
> 
> Andrew


Thankyou for your suggestion, I have checked and there are no special conditions in this area


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## xavierx6

akirk said:


> Hence my suggestion of losing c. 1.5 foot either side  - ultimately measurements are presumably rough until the house is owned and the OP has something accurate to measure with - I wouldn’t base anything on estate agent’s details!



I used the measuring tool on google earth to get a rough idea of the real measurements. Estate agents seem to just guess


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## xavierx6

Sachakins said:


> And just why does that make a difference?
> Just because it's a low income does not mean they don't have pride and enjoyment it what they can do, and have the right to be concerned.
> If a person living in the area your suggesting for your development is reading this, your statement could really inflame them, as implying that somehow they are lesser person for lacking money.
> 
> I donþ think that last phrase in your post does you any favours at all.



I live in a low income area in a low income town. I am looking to move to another low income area in the same low income town. It is what it is, it's not offensive, I didn't say anyone is lesser than me, these are the people I live amongst, they are the same as me.

You seem to be completely missing the point and being all PC and offended for no reason.

There is absolutely going to be a difference in what your neighbours would allow/object to if you lived on a council estate, than if you lived next door to Lady Snootington of Chumly Manor in a £5million country estate


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## xavierx6

As several people have mentioned this now.

I am not going to be running a business
I am not going to be doing any commercial activity
I will rarely ever be making any noise and certainly not at a time that would annoy neighbours
There will be no pollution / no burning / no smoke / no dust


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## xavierx6

Another issue I would like to address in a single post as several have mentioned it. 

Why would my proposed workshop devalue your house? 

I have been looking for a property with an existing workshop of this scale, they do exist, but are rare to come by and are sold for a HUGE premium, certainly more than I can afford.

I also have been tracking property ask/sale prices in my area for the last 2 years. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that any property that neighbours any large commercial buildings have been devalued or are any more difficult to sell.


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## Sachakins

xavierx6 said:


> There is absolutely going to be a difference in what your neighbours would allow/object to if you lived on a council estate, than if you lived next door to Lady Snootington of Chumly Manor in a £5million country estate



I don't see that correlation, In fact the last sentence further highlights my point. I am not being PC , but just because I live on a council, somehow means I don't have same rights or feelings as a country estate owner.
In reality, the impact on the country estate is likely less obtrusive than a commercial sized shed maybe 10 feet from my backdoor.

I am not saying you shouldn't do it, just your rational with respect to your neighbours and their neighbourhood.

Also regarding the permitted development, do you know if the property your looking at has had any development to it during its lifespan, as noticed this caveat about outbuildings

:No more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
Caveat being;
The term "original house" means the house as it was first built or as it stood on 1 July 1948 (if it was built before that date). Although you may not have built an extension to the house, a previous owner may have done so.


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## Blackswanwood

xavierx6 said:


> Another issue I would like to address in a single post as several have mentioned it.
> 
> Why would my proposed workshop devalue your house?
> 
> I have been looking for a property with an existing workshop of this scale, they do exist, but are rare to come by and are sold for a HUGE premium, certainly more than I can afford.
> 
> I also have been tracking property ask/sale prices in my area for the last 2 years. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that any property that neighbours any large commercial buildings have been devalued or are any more difficult to sell.



House prices are ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it. Someone who has no need of a large workshop will discount the price they would pay whereas someone who restores large items for a hobby may be willing to pay a premium.

If you overlay on this the mortgage valuation (which could be a factor for a purchaser) where the lender is assessing the value they could get in a depressed market without a long period on the market the assumption will be that it’s a bit of a rarity so there may be more potential buyers that will discount the price and therefore the mortgage valuation will reflect that.

In my opinion it’s a gamble and you wouldn’t really know until you came to sell. IMHO most people (rich or poor) will have concerns about the impact on saleability on their property if they saw a large workshop being erected next door. You will have a better feel for the sentiment of the neighbours though.


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## Keith 66

I recently sold my mums bungalow in Lancashire with .56 of an acre of land, (Came under Lancaster City Council), due to restrictive covenants there was no development allowed on the big paddock at the end of the garden, mores the pity!
It is worth looking at the planning portal & planning history of your local area on your council website. It will tell you everything that has gone on locally, who was consulted, their responses, the lot.
In my case it was easy to see that there wasnt a cat in hells chance to get planning permission for anything.
A neighbour had tried twice to get PP on a 4 acre plot with tiny cottage next door for a house, he had employed an Architect & planning consultants to get this through, All that happened was The planning consultants reamed him royally. He was £16,000 lighter & no planning perm, In fact he was now on the councils radar & the cottage he was happily living in in his retirement had its planning status looked at & they found it was actually holiday use only! That meant he had to move out!
A look at the planning portal would have saved him the trouble.
Hurdles were, AONB, Conservation area, City council, Parish council, Environment agency, Highways agency, English Heritage, Arboricultural survey, Bat survey, Amphibian survey (all these £800 a pop) All these consulted before it got knocked back.
Strangely the firm of planning consultants involved with the debacle next door were recomended to me by a local estate agent who i didnt engage!
I decided discretion was the better part of valor & sold the place first!


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## clogs

I'm building a 200m2 barn on my prop......
it will be full of car lifts, a wood and metal machine shop.....
plus all the ancillery stuff that goes with it.....
it will only be sold after I'm dead.....
it's being built with an antique car collector in mind as the next owner.....
even if we double the price it will still be less than 1/2 of what you'd pay in the UK.....
bring ur antique cars n motorcycles to Crete they dont rot.....summer is almost 10 months long....hahaha....
there is interest from owners here already...we asked around just to get an idea....
all the prop I had in the UK had large workshops (not as big as the above) when it came to sale time....
priced it up well above the going rate for the house (due to the workshop) only had a few numpties offer less.....
we got our asking price everytime.....
There's a big need for working space at home....and new owners have just gotta pay.....
I would say it's going to be even more of a selling point in the future.....
lots of prop in the UK, you can't park a van or caravan outside on the drive....
if you can do it go for it......better than money in the bank and you get the use of it plus the fun of doing it ur way....
good luck.....


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## okeydokey

Somewhere in this post the OP said he had the same amount of storage/workplace in various shed/buildings (in one place?) assuming he has been able to use these without hassle from others has he considered perhaps a workable solution might be to improve these/join a few together as imo its unlikely he will get consent even after appeal etc


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