# Workbench Build aka Paul Sellers style



## thetyreman (12 Oct 2016)

I thought I'd document my workbench build with some photography and pictures, and instead of keeping it to myself, make a kind of blog as I go along.

today I am starting with the legs and braces.

the legs are 3 x 4 and cross rails 2 x 4 cut down to the exact lengths required.

Now I just need to mark out the mortises with the mortise gauge and begin cutting them.


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## MattRoberts (12 Oct 2016)

Oh good, another workbench build! Looking forward to this, although you've got a tough job ahead of you to beat Mark's humourous posts!


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## NickN (12 Oct 2016)

My first project when shed finished will be a Sellers Workbench, with variations, probably, so will be watching this with interest.

Need to buy about 100 sash cramps first though..


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Oct 2016)

One thing I would say is that if anyone starts with the thought that this is only a basic bit of rough and ready joinery is that if you are not prepared to true your legs up prior to cutting joints, check all four corners before marking out. Don't just check one corner, think that it's tolerable and get on with it - invariably one corner will be closer to true than the others, and you only need one. I accept of course that most people will true stuff as a matter of course, but for people like me who did not have the luxury of a bench to work on, we tend to make the most of the status quo.


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## thetyreman (13 Oct 2016)

I got through 4 mortises on 2 of the legs, it took a lot longer than expected, there is a hell of a lot of waste, made a few mistakes but excuse the pun (touch wood) nothing too bad, tomorrow I will finish off the other mortise holes and take some pics, each joint gets slightly easier, I am sharpening my chisel very often as well.


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## jlawford (13 Oct 2016)

thetyreman":12oex6ot said:


> I got through 4 mortises on 2 of the legs, it took a lot longer than expected, there is a hell of a lot of waste, made a few mistakes but excuse the pun (touch wood) nothing too bad, tomorrow I will finish off the other mortise holes and take some pics, each joint gets slightly easier, I am sharpening my chisel very often as well.



Are you using Paul's mortise chopping method? I cut 10 M&T joints for my bench and found the chopping got more precise and efficient as I progressed, so keep it up!


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## thetyreman (13 Oct 2016)

all mortices are now cut, 

next up, time to cut the tenons on the rails.


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## NickN (14 Oct 2016)

Looking good, tidy job. I take it you're not planning to add a tail vice, or are you mounting one through the top rail rather than above?


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## thetyreman (14 Oct 2016)

NickN":2bcpgs9v said:


> Looking good, tidy job. I take it you're not planning to add a tail vice, or are you mounting one through the top rail rather than above?



thanks, no not planning on having a tail vice. I am going to try and get all 4 rails ready today, in between work as I am self employed and work from home.


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## MarkDennehy (14 Oct 2016)

If you change your mind and want to get an end vice later on, the veritas one is excellent and very easy to retrofit. But if you have holdfasts, you could pretty much get by without one.


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## thetyreman (14 Oct 2016)

managed to get 2 of the four rails finished, and kept taking away a bit at a time, making sure it all fits, it takes longer than expected but is very satisfying when it fits, VERY

I cut myself quite badly with a chisel when paring one of the tenons so have had to stop for now, it's my own fault for being tired, will see how I feel tomorrow. I will upload new pics tomorrow to show the progress. It's surprising how much I am enjoying this so far apart from cutting myself lol onwards and upwards (literally)

@mark, I doubt I will get the end vice, but thanks for the suggestion.


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## thetyreman (15 Oct 2016)

update, I have actually now finished both frames, pics are from earlier today, tomorrow I will upload more of the completed frames.


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## memzey (15 Oct 2016)

Looking good! I love a bench build thread. I will hopefully be making one in the near future (once my workshop is sorted and certain domestic duties are fulfilled) but mine will probably be a less ambitious design than the Sellers style one you have embarked upon.


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## MattRoberts (16 Oct 2016)

Nice joints!  

Do you mind me asking roughly how much you paid for your pine? Did you buy it rough or PAR? 

I'm making a workbench soon, and am debating whether to use CLS or PAR pine.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Oct 2016)

CLS is a pig to use, (apart from its rarely being straight) as you have no corners to mark from. I think I would rather use good quality sawn timber than CLS. Horrible stuff, its only virtue is its price.


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## MattRoberts (16 Oct 2016)

I was planning on trimming off the roundover


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## thetyreman (16 Oct 2016)

MattRoberts":3g911m94 said:


> Nice joints!
> 
> Do you mind me asking roughly how much you paid for your pine? Did you buy it rough or PAR?
> 
> I'm making a workbench soon, and am debating whether to use CLS or PAR pine.



not at all matt, it cost £19.20 for this lot of wood, it was also PAR because I didn't want to be faffing about spending years squaring it lol the build is challenging enough as it is! 

p.s what does CLS actually stand for? I don't have a clue.

obviously once I buy all the wood and the vice it will cost a lot more, I predict £100-£150.


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## thetyreman (16 Oct 2016)

latest update, I have finished the frames!!! just completed the round overs on the long tenons, next step is to glue it up and leave em to dry, but I'll wait until tomorrow for that.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Oct 2016)

Canadian Lumber Standard.


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## thetyreman (16 Oct 2016)

MattRoberts":1kf04v6m said:


> I was planning on trimming off the roundover



got the roundovers done now, hope you like it


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## NickN (16 Oct 2016)

It's taking shape quickly, and I like the tenon rounding, I was planning to trim flush but seeing what you've done I may do the same.

The price you paid for the wood seems very good, from a local merchants?


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## skipdiver (16 Oct 2016)

phil.p":1lubyf2i said:


> Canadian Lumber Standard.



I've thought for years it was Canadian Lumber Stock. Live and learn.


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## MarkDennehy (16 Oct 2016)

thetyreman":200nxnjc said:


> it was also PAR because I didn't want to be faffing about spending years squaring it lol the build is challenging enough as it is!


Wiser man than me!


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## MattRoberts (16 Oct 2016)

thetyreman":2nmki9r4 said:


> not at all matt, it cost £19.20 for this lot of wood, it was also PAR because I didn't want to be faffing about spending years squaring it lol the build is challenging enough as it is!
> 
> p.s what does CLS actually stand for? I don't have a clue.
> 
> obviously once I buy all the wood and the vice it will cost a lot more, I predict £100-£150.



Sorry, yes - CLS = Canadian Lumber Standard and actually refers to the strength rating of construction timber. I was just using it to describe using construction studwork vs proper PAR pine like you are using  

The finished leg frames look great - love the rounded tenons. You also take a mean set of photos! 

Looking forward to the next part


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## thetyreman (16 Oct 2016)

NickN":gtenn2t1 said:


> It's taking shape quickly, and I like the tenon rounding, I was planning to trim flush but seeing what you've done I may do the same.
> 
> The price you paid for the wood seems very good, from a local merchants?



thanks nick, yes I'd recommend you try the roundover technique, it not only looks good it helps it easily go into the tenon as well. 

It's from my local timber yard yes, they seem really good so far, I'll be going back there for sure.


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## thetyreman (17 Oct 2016)

I've clamped up and glued frame no1, also planed away all marks with a razor sharp no4, and eased all the edges, leaving it overnight with a heater on in the garage to dry.

Tomorrow I'll clamp and glue frame no2, there will be nothing to add visually, so both frames will be ready by wednesday.

This friday I will be getting the rest of the wood, so I can't do much until then.

here's some photos for you in the meantime.


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## memzey (17 Oct 2016)

Looking good TTM. Very nicely done so far and looking forward to more updates as you progress.


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## MarkDennehy (17 Oct 2016)

Nice rate of progress as well


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## Grawschbags (18 Oct 2016)

Looking good, loving the thread...

You're doing the bit I'm about to embark on. I'm also building a Sellers bench.

I started by laminating the tops, aprons and legs. Cut my legs to length over the weekend. Just need to sort the rails now.

I also went PAR timber, but there's still a load of planing to do to flatten the tops and aprons, and also to square the legs!

Look forward to the next installment.


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## Wizard9999 (18 Oct 2016)

Great thread so far, really enjoying it =D> 

How did you round over the tenons, they look so neat.

Terry.


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## Khendon (18 Oct 2016)

I built my bench about 6 months ago in the same style as a total newbie, though I think yours is looking better!

The hardest part of this build for me, and the least emphasised in Pauls videos and blogs is the fitting of the vice. Paul makes it all look very easy and simple, but I actually found it quite difficult, especially after how relatively simple the rest of the build had been with Pauls techniques.

Getting the holes drilled exactly square, making space to mount it with the apron getting in the way, and getting the vice dead square against the front of the bench was very tricky for me. When I first installed it, my vice was slightly out of square, only by 1mm or so, but it made a hell of a difference when it came to gripping things evenly in the vice. 

I ended up fettling and messing with it for ages to get it right, and I'm still not entirely happy with how it has turned out.

So I would advise planning how you're going to do it, get or make a jig for drilling your holes dead straight. Measure everything twice. Consider the vice you have purchased, where the mounting holes are in relation to your apron, and where your rear face is going to sit. Do you have space to get it all in front of the apron? Do you need to make a recess for it to sit in etc. If you need to cut a recess (because of vice depth, mounting hole position, and apron thickness for example) that potentially needs to be dead flat and square to the rest of the apron front as well.

I'm sure the more experienced guys here would have no problem with this whatsoever, but I sure did as a beginner so thought I'd share. 

Regards

Dave


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## thetyreman (18 Oct 2016)

Wizard9999":uu5w6v27 said:


> Great thread so far, really enjoying it =D>
> 
> How did you round over the tenons, they look so neat.
> 
> Terry.



thanks Terry, I used a no4 plane to round the edges, it starts out as a chamfer, then a chisel to knock out the ends a bit at a time creating the curve, and finally a 10 inch mil file to smooth it over.


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## thetyreman (18 Oct 2016)

another minor update, I noticed that after clamping it up, it's surprising how much you can close the gaps, on one of the frames there are now no gaps at all! the second frame is already glued up this morning, I will unclamp it tonight.


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## thetyreman (19 Oct 2016)

I just measured the tops of the H frames now the glue has dried, on one it has a 2mm gap in the centre, second one has a 1.5mm gap. I am wondering if I should carefully plane the top of the legs down a bit or just leave it before putting the bearers on, but I am concerned it might twist the top a bit which is the last thing I want.

what would you guys do? 

regards, 

Ben.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Oct 2016)

For another time - you can work out the dimensions of the joint before marking out so that the rail is always higher than the leg. It's easier to plane that way.  You can save that bit of info. for your next bench.


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## thetyreman (24 Oct 2016)

finally another update!

I got the rest of the wood today finally, it's all PAR red pine.

I am wondering if someone can help with the orientation of end grain, when you glue up the benchtop, did you have the endgrain going in opposite directions to minimise warp? or should I just not even care about it. I have not glued the top together yet, or the aprons and wellboard, but that's the next stage, it will probably take a few days of swapping the clamps and waiting 24 hours.

pics are coming tomorrow!


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## n0legs (24 Oct 2016)

Another viewer here signing in.
Keep up the good work, more please


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## Orraloon (25 Oct 2016)

thetyreman":3rjc8mkd said:


> finally another update!
> 
> I got the rest of the wood today finally, it's all PAR red pine.
> 
> ...


Try and alternate the grain as well as you can. Also glue up the top in batches then when dry glue up the larger s ections. Much more manageable that way. I did my bench top in 2 sections but 3 or more would be ok if you like. There is a fair bit of tapping things into line with a rubber mallet before the final thghtening up of the clamps.
Regards
John


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## thetyreman (25 Oct 2016)

here's some pics, just getting the clamps ready for glue up and rehearsing it, 

it's a lot harder than expected when there's a problem with twist you have to hit it pretty hard,

what do you think of this grain orientation? I originally had the pieces all going the same way, but have alternated each one now, it's not the final setup, I await some feedback first, just interested in peoples opinions on this.


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## MarkDennehy (25 Oct 2016)

Whatever about the end grain, don't forget to pay attention to the edges - you don't want to have half them with the grain going one way and half with the grain going the other, or planing the top to flatten it is going to be a bit more fun than you expected.


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## thetyreman (25 Oct 2016)

cycling to the woodyard to get some titebond III soon, I'm getting a new batch of glue for this.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Oct 2016)

Make sure you know which is the side you are to use - you don't need to flatten the whole of the underside, just where it fixes down. All (most of) your splits, knots, snipe etc. can be put where it they will not to be seen again.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p61864? ... build%20d4 nearly half the price, and perfectly good.


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## NickN (25 Oct 2016)

Not sure how much you like planing (I will be finding out at a workshop soon how much I do) but it looks to me from the photos as if the PAR you're using for the top may possibly need a bit more 'P' added to the 'AR' to make for a nice close fitting laminated result.
I think Paul Sellers mentions it in his video of this bit, the fact that even fresh from the timber yard the pieces all need a bit of work first. That said, if you glued as it is above I am sure it would still all work ok - I'm only just beginning down the woodworking road so don't have the highly valuable years of experience to know whether I'm talking rubbish or not!


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## thetyreman (25 Oct 2016)

NickN":bkg0xbe8 said:


> Not sure how much you like planing (I will be finding out at a workshop soon how much I do) but it looks to me from the photos as if the PAR you're using for the top may possibly need a bit more 'P' added to the 'AR' to make for a nice close fitting laminated result.
> I think Paul Sellers mentions it in his video of this bit, the fact that even fresh from the timber yard the pieces all need a bit of work first. That said, if you glued as it is above I am sure it would still all work ok - I'm only just beginning down the woodworking road so don't have the highly valuable years of experience to know whether I'm talking rubbish or not!



you are not talking rubbish, far from it, it's actually just the photo, in real life there are no gaps when clamped together.


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## NickN (25 Oct 2016)

Thanks for the reassurance, and that's good, must be good quality stuff too. Haven't found a good timber merchant where I am except one that might be, but I believe is Trade Only, called Harlows.

Looking forward to the next round of photo updates.


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## sundaytrucker (25 Oct 2016)

NickN":11c5aqa3 said:


> Thanks for the reassurance, and that's good, must be good quality stuff too. Haven't found a good timber merchant where I am except one that might be, but I believe is Trade Only, called Harlows.
> 
> Looking forward to the next round of photo updates.



We are in the same county. I am ordering some softwood tomorrow, mix of PAR and rough sawn for a small bench build from Premier in Worcester city centre, Diglis area. It is to build my first bench with hand tools so other than selecting the best possible boards I am not too worried about the timber, the completed bench will be sat in a crappy garage and will most likely get replaced with a posher and more suitable bench once I have a better idea of what I want. 

There is a place called Whitney Saw Mill which is in the Hay On Wye area and was recommended. I plan to visit once the bench is built to pick up some 'proper' timber.


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## thetyreman (25 Oct 2016)

just glued up the top, there's no going back now, clamping it was not easy and there was plenty of swearing lol


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## memzey (25 Oct 2016)

You know the rules; pictures or it didn't happen!


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## thetyreman (25 Oct 2016)

here's some shots as evidence :lol: 

it's the underside though so there's quite a few knots, it's not perfect but I smashed them together as best as I could before drying, now just to wait 24 hours...lots more laminations to do before I even start planing.


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## Wizard9999 (25 Oct 2016)

Following the thread with interest. To my eye that glue up looks better aligned than the dry run. Nice job!

Terry.


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## MarkDennehy (25 Oct 2016)

It's the fun thing about gluing up a workbench top - if you do it right, you'll swear a lot. And if you do it wrong, you'll invent new swear words.


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## Bm101 (25 Oct 2016)

MarkDennehy":1eg99w6s said:


> It's the fun thing about gluing up a workbench top - if you do it right, you'll swear a lot. And if you do it wrong, you'll invent new swear words.


Mark, when you become a London window cleaner they send you on special sweary course paid for by the Guild. If you take up woodworking as a hobby you're already miles ahead. I'm doing a phd. I make up my own language now. You know those fellas with tourettes? Amateurs mate. I'm going to buy a Mynah bird to see how far I can take it before it keels over from natural selection.


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## thetyreman (26 Oct 2016)

more swearing today, I glued up the wellboard, probably the most boring part so far, tomorrow I will laminate the aprons, benchtop is looking good, there's going to be a hell of a lot of planing ahead of me, pics to follow ASAP


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## Grawschbags (27 Oct 2016)

I feel your pain.... I'm still finding surface to plane!

Did you use a guide to cut your mortise'?

I cut one leg, and they didn't align when they met in the middle after chopping from both sides! My legs are pretty square, so I reckon I was going in squint with the chisel. Lesson learned for the next ones!

Graeme


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## thetyreman (27 Oct 2016)

Grawschbags":cbmxe6ja said:


> I feel your pain.... I'm still finding surface to plane!
> 
> Did you use a guide to cut your mortise'?
> 
> ...



I felt a lot more confident by the 3rd and 4th joint so keep on going, I also sharpened my chisel in between every single joint to make certain it was razor sharp. I think a guide would have been helpful though and made it a lot easier, let me know how it goes when assembling it together.


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## thetyreman (27 Oct 2016)

here's a shot of the aprons, just one more to glue up (on the right).

I could have done them together but it created a twist when rehearsing so didn't want to risk it, plus it's even more stressful if there are mistakes, double the risk, so I'll just wait another day!

This Weekend I am hoping to get outside on the sawhorses if the weather's good.


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## Grawschbags (27 Oct 2016)

Thankfully I haven't cut the tenons yet, so I can make one fatter to accommodate my balls up. Although I may still discard the leg and start over...

I too chickened out of gluing both aprons together. Looks like you've done a neat job on the one you've glued.


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## thetyreman (28 Oct 2016)

second apron is almost dry! all laminations are now done, I am celebrating and getting a beer now, we'll see how I feel in the morning.

I went for a hypster looking photo just to make it more appealing for this next photo :lol: 

next update should be sunday or monday.....when planing begins.


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## thetyreman (28 Oct 2016)

Grawschbags":3tfpe401 said:


> Thankfully I haven't cut the tenons yet, so I can make one fatter to accommodate my balls up. Although I may still discard the leg and start over...
> 
> I too chickened out of gluing both aprons together. Looks like you've done a neat job on the one you've glued.



depends how much you've over done it mate, you could always fill the gaps with epoxy, although it wouldn't cost a lot to just buy another one, best of luck either way


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## Wizard9999 (28 Oct 2016)

thetyreman":3dswh4x9 said:


> second apron is almost dry! all laminations are now done, I am celebrating and getting a beer now, we'll see how I feel in the morning.



And a very well deserved beer that will be sir! Fingers crossed for dry weather at the weekend where you are.

Terry.


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## NickN (28 Oct 2016)

Wizard9999":3jukx4b8 said:


> thetyreman":3jukx4b8 said:
> 
> 
> > second apron is almost dry! all laminations are now done, I am celebrating and getting a beer now, we'll see how I feel in the morning.
> ...



Stockport, Manchester? Dry weather? Hehehehehehehe. (hammer) 

Still, nothing wrong with a bit of optimism. 

Progress looking great so far - having just received 6 x 1500mm aluminium sash cramps for the bargain price of £52 delivered... I now see that I should probably have ordered twice that number. Ah well, it will have to wait for another pay packet.


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## Grawschbags (29 Oct 2016)

thetyreman":3ne49qy0 said:


> depends how much you've over done it mate, you could always fill the gaps with epoxy, although it wouldn't cost a lot to just buy another one, best of luck either way



I foreseen my cackhandedness and bought extra stock at the time...  

Enjoy all the planing that's in store for you! I'm only just starting to get the sensation back in my arms!


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## thetyreman (1 Nov 2016)

another update, I've been planing like crazy :wink: 

still working on the worktop to get it flat, but there is no twist on the underside, or top after checking several times, the only problem is one corner is about 1-1.5mm lower than the rest of it on the underside. I've just been using a no4 for now, but I will be getting the 5 1/2 and 4 1/2 ready tomorrow, it feels like a longer 5 1/2 will be much better, I am actually tempted to get an old no7 just for this project. 

one of the aprons is badly twisted though, I think it's the way I clamped it up plus there was already some twist in the wood..thinking about buying another 3 pieces and making another apron, it wouldn't cost a fortune, it's literally about 1/4 of an inch out and it's very obvious even without winding sticks, with winding sticks it's terrible, I could always use the wood for something else another time...coffee table perhaps?

added some pics to show you the progress, including the wellboard and the mountain of shavings, enjoy!


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## MattRoberts (1 Nov 2016)

I think I could happily lie down and sleep on that bed of shavings!


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## custard (1 Nov 2016)

Great work Tyreman. The way you check everything for true, and rehearse each step in advance, is absolutely the right way to go. It may seem a giant faff when you just want to crack on and finish your bench, but that careful and considered approach will deliver quality results more quickly than the guy who bashes through regardless hoping to correct problems later in the build. In woodworking the tortoise beats the hare every single time!


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## Grawschbags (2 Nov 2016)

Great progress again. You'll sleep well tonight!

Can I ask where you got your Winding Sticks?

I'm just using some offcuts I planed true to each other.


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## thetyreman (2 Nov 2016)

Grawschbags":373x060o said:


> Great progress again. You'll sleep well tonight!
> 
> Can I ask where you got your Winding Sticks?
> 
> I'm just using some offcuts I planed true to each other.



http://www.axminster.co.uk/aluminium-wi ... cks-202398 they are made by veritas in canada, even though they are cheap, they don't feel cheap at all, highly recommended 

thanks, I will sleep well


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## thetyreman (2 Nov 2016)

got some new wood for to replace the twisted apron, about to glue it up, I did try and remove the twist and it worked but the piece is messed up, it's not worth using, too thin in parts meaning it would end up a lot thinner than the other piece.


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## thetyreman (3 Nov 2016)

question regarding the humidity/climate, should I leave a heater on or is this more likely to make the wood warp?


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## MrTeroo (3 Nov 2016)

I have a dehumidifier running in my garage 24/7
Keeps it at a constant 60%

I do that mainly for the benefit of tools etc but any wood in there also benefits from it I think.


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## biskit (3 Nov 2016)

What size/make of dehumidifier are you using MrTeroo.?


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## MrTeroo (3 Nov 2016)

It's an ELA DD822

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ELA-DD822-Dessicant-Dehumidifier-Laundry/dp/B003XPWPLG

Works well, it's been going strong for nearly five years now.

I drilled a hole on a downward gradient through the wooden door frame of the garage and fed the drainage tube through it, out to the grate outside.

Don't need to empty it now.


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## Fitzroy (3 Nov 2016)

My understanding is that the dessicant type perform much better in the cold damp uk climate than the condenser type.


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## thetyreman (3 Nov 2016)

I've made another apron, it's so much better than the twisted one, perfectly flat and twist free with no gaps...a miracle, the pic shows the two flat aprons (post surface planing)

also made sure the frame tops were flush with the top of the tenons so the bearers are tight, see pics


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## Fitzroy (3 Nov 2016)

Looking good! Motivates me to get on finishing the new shed as a bench is next on my list. My shed frequently looks like yours, ankle deep in shavings, which as an all year shorts wearer irritates the wife as apparently it's a total pain picking the shavings off my socks.


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## Bm101 (4 Nov 2016)

That's not a miracle, that's careful preparation , good execution and technique I'd reckon. =D>


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## thetyreman (4 Nov 2016)

I'm beefing up the bearers and making them exactly 1 inch thick, when you buy 3 x 1 it's actually 3/4" thick, and the bearers really do need to be 1" thick or it won't be exactly 38" high.

the quoted dimensions of 2 3/4" wide doesn't leave enough overhang for my liking, so instead I'm making slightly wider more like 3 1/2 inches otherwise there will only be 1/4" which would make it very tricky to screw through from underneath once it's all assembled, I think it needs more wood than that, especially if you are using thick screws, so for now I'm making the apron housing dado's before commiting to screwing the bearers down, I want to see how it all fits together first, thinking about all this has been holding me back a bit, because I want to get it right.


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## part_time_cowboy (4 Nov 2016)

I'm feeling slightly inspired by this thread, as the timber for my own workbench is sitting in the garage waiting for me to have a free afternoon to start planing it flat. Hopefully I'll get as good results.


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## Wizard9999 (4 Nov 2016)

Looking really good, loving the ever increasing depth of shavings on the floor! It's really starting to get there now, won't be long until you are working on it!

Terry.


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## thetyreman (5 Nov 2016)

bit of an update, I knifewalled the aprons and cut them to length, these will be the 'reference' for the benchtop and apron. There's a problem though, one apron is 3/8" of an inch wider than the other one, so I have to factor this in when making the housing dados, apart from that it's starting to come together, I am starting the routing tonight, using my chisel and veritas router plane...about time I put it to good use.

edit: pics attached to show the difference in the two apron widths, I could easily plane them so they are the same which is probably what I'll end up doing this evening.


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## thetyreman (5 Nov 2016)

I planed the two to the same width now, exhausted lol it took a while but it will be worth it


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Nov 2016)

In theory the middle stave should be reversed ... but hey ho ...


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## Brian18741 (6 Nov 2016)

Great build thread, looking forward to seeing more!


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## thetyreman (11 Nov 2016)

so I've been pretty busy this week! cut the 4 housing dado joints, added the bearers and also planed every piece of wood as flat as possible with a 5 1/2 stanley, I have just got an old record no7 as well. 

The main issue I'm having is for some reason there's a twist in the bearers when I test fitted it, the problem is the garage floor is very uneven so I might have to take it out for the glue up stage, this means when you put the worktop on, there's a gap of around 1/4-3/16ths of an inch when square.... but just on one end, not the other. 

I'm not sure what to do yet with this, I thought I'd ask here first, what do you think?

I've taken some more pics to show you, including the gap, and the winding sticks are showing a twist. I also know it's not the worktop because I planed all twist out of it, top and bottom, same thing with both aprons.

my body is aching a bit, hope to finish this off by weekend! it's taken a lot longer than expected.


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## MrTeroo (11 Nov 2016)

I ended up with a twist in one of my leg frames.

I thought it would have to be done again but I went on Paul Sellers' 2 day introduction to woodworking course a couple of weeks ago and I asked him what I should do about that.

He told me not to worry because the locking wedges that secure the leg frames would correct the twist.

When I glued mine up and put the wedges in it was fine.


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## thetyreman (11 Nov 2016)

MrTeroo":355v0dy8 said:


> I ended up with a twist in one of my leg frames.
> 
> I thought it would have to be done again but I went on Paul Sellers' 2 day introduction to woodworking course a couple of weeks ago and I asked him what I should do about that.
> 
> ...



interesting, although mine doesn't use wedges, it's going to be glued and screwed in place, so once it's glued to the aprons, there won't be much time to make adjustments, thanks for the input though.


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## MrTeroo (11 Nov 2016)

It's not too late to incorporate wedges?


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## MarkDennehy (11 Nov 2016)

> I'm not sure what to do yet with this, I thought I'd ask here first, what do you think?


Richard Maguire's english bench video covered that exact point; he recommended shimming under the legs to straighten the frame before putting the top on because the top would hold the frame in whatever state it was in, twisted or not. Once you have the frame straight and the bench assembled, you can either shim under the leg to compensate for the floor or cut the legs to length (though that seems a bit extreme to me).


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## thetyreman (11 Nov 2016)

MrTeroo":mvsk9e7p said:


> It's not too late to incorporate wedges?



underneath the workbench yes, but I thought you meant wedges inside the apron/legs sorry if I misunderstood you, there's time yet before I glue and screw it together, which I will most likely do tonight/this evening.


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## MrTeroo (11 Nov 2016)

I did mean between theleg fframe/ apron


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## thetyreman (11 Nov 2016)

mmmh I'm going to try the legs on a flat surface and hopefully I'll see what is wrong, got to get this part of it right after all this work.


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## MrTeroo (11 Nov 2016)

These are the wedges I was referring to:


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## custard (11 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":2a4x474b said:


> mmmh I'm going to try the legs on a flat surface and hopefully I'll see what is wrong, got to get this part of it right after all this work.



Very few woodworkers have access to a floor or indeed any surface that's sufficiently flat to act as a datum for their furniture builds. That's why glue ups and test assemblies are usually carried out on a pair of saw horses. The trick is to sight across the saw horses as if they were giant winding sticks, and use shims or wedges to bring them into alignment. Actually they don't need to be _flat_, they could happily be on the side of a hill, they just need to show no _twist_, in other words to be completely out of _wind_.

If you don't have a pair of saw horses you can improvise with planks and piles of books, anything that jacks up the surfaces by 300mm or so in order that you can get your eye line down to that surface and check that they're parallel to each other and out of wind. Rest the four legs of the bench on this improvised but accurate datum surface and it'll tell you all you need to know.

Good luck!


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## custard (11 Nov 2016)

MrTeroo":38l54jcm said:


> These are the wedges I was referring to:



That's an excellent way of building a Nicholson style bench, wedges like that were a common device on the Nicholson benches I worked on thirty or more years ago before they dropped out of style. But how will you repeatedly hammer the wedges home to take up shrinkage play, especially when the top is on? There doesn't seem to be any room to get in there with a hammer.

Shouldn't there be some sort of horn attached to the wedges to act as an accessible striking surface?


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## MrTeroo (11 Nov 2016)

Well according to Paul Sellers the wedge will just drop and tighten as the bench movement occurs.

Here is the blog post of his that covers this:

https://paulsellers.com/2012/06/making-the-workbench-11/

And the equivalent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyDjZWo3b3U&index=9&list=PLD39949332C7FB168

Start ten minutes in for his wedge explanation.


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## custard (11 Nov 2016)

MrTeroo":1wjwb3fg said:


> Well according to Paul Sellers the wedge will just drop and tighten as the bench movement occurs.



I guess you're going to find out! And if it doesn't work all by itself then no problems, attaching a horn to the wedge later on is just a moment's work.

The weakness of the Nicholson bench design is racking. Not immediately, but after a few years, and there are three clear reasons this will inevitably happen,

-The housing joints in the apron have an end grain surface bearing against the long grain of the leg, the leg will shrink more in width than the housing joint will so the fit will always end up a bit loose. Furthermore, the end grain of the apron will also crush the long grain fibres of the leg, so that'll add to the looseness.

-If the leg is secured with screws or bolts then these metal fastenings will wear away the timber, creating progressively ovaled holes which will allow the racking to get worse and worse.

-The glue joint between the leg and the apron is doomed to fail as the direction of grain on these two components is at 90 degrees to each other.

Consequently a wedge like you have is the perfect solution, and I remember regularly tapping the wedges a bit tighter due to seasonal timber movement. I'm sceptical about the "just drop and tighten" idea, but hey maybe I'm wrong and in any event it's no big deal to remedy the problem after the build.

Good luck!


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## thetyreman (12 Nov 2016)

thanks for the excellent advice custard! I actually got it flat by using wedges on the floor in the end, which has seemed to work very well. It's good to know that it's not just me with an uneven floor.

I now need to surface plane the side of the benchtop it's quite a way out to make it fit, will show some pics soon.


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## thetyreman (12 Nov 2016)

another note, that bench that MrTeroo is refering to is a different design by sellers, in the youtube video series, mr sellers says it was designed to be taken apart and put back together again, because he planned to use it for shows and travelling, so that may explain it custard. 

The design I am using is from his book and DVD, and it IS slightly different, no leg wedges and a thinner wellboard, designed to be permanent.


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## MrTeroo (12 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":22vwr0mb said:


> another note, that bench that MrTeroo is refering to is a different design by sellers, in the youtube video series, mr sellers says it was designed to be taken apart and put back together again, because he planned to use it for shows and travelling, so that may explain it custard.
> 
> The design I am using is from his book and DVD, and it IS slightly different, no leg wedges and a thinner wellboard, designed to be permanent.



Sorry :? Didn't know that.


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## thetyreman (12 Nov 2016)

MrTeroo":2mte23jj said:


> thetyreman":2mte23jj said:
> 
> 
> > another note, that bench that MrTeroo is refering to is a different design by sellers, in the youtube video series, mr sellers says it was designed to be taken apart and put back together again, because he planned to use it for shows and travelling, so that may explain it custard.
> ...



no problem, I just say this so people are aware, it's not personal.


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## custard (12 Nov 2016)

A Nicholson bench (i.e. the style of benches that Paul Sellers makes) are better made when built with wedges in the apron housings. Yes, that gives the benefit of portability, but the bigger advantage is that they're more resistant to racking. For the reasons I gave previously a non wedged Nicholson bench, if hard and constantly used for a few years, will eventually succumb to racking.

Having read through the link that Mr Teroo gave I think it's fair to say that Paul Sellers has come to the same conclusion, these are some of the things he says,

"On my benches I don’t rely only on the housing dado. I want something that locks and continues to lock the legs into the apron housings and never turns lose."

"I could guarantee the lateral stability absolutely essential to a hand tool woodworking bench. The more it racks the more rock solid the wedges seat in each of the joints and there lies the increased success of what was already a truly solid and functional bench."

"When I have made benches in the past, I found that even with glue and screws or bolts, shoving them across uneven floors carelessly or regularly can rack the joints, break the glue line and weaken the rigidity of the bench."

But let's keep this in perspective. I've seen Nicholson benches that were hammered over many years in professional workshops and were badly racked, and I've seen _wedged_ Nicholson benches that were obviously well used but still solid. However, for less demanding hobbyist use it's likely both construction methods would serve you well.


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## thetyreman (13 Nov 2016)

just spend 3 hours almost non stop lapping the record no7 blade, it was in a severe state and very rounded in the corners, but I got there in the end lol

I used the workbench so it was much easier than before, nothing rocks and it feels rock solid already. Tomorrow I can begin planing the worktop sides and make sure they are parallel before fitting it.


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## thetyreman (15 Nov 2016)

it took a lot longer than expect to plane the side of the worktop, in this case I had to plane it slightly out of square so when tightened in the clamps it didn't rise up above the bearers, I also made sure it was parallel and planed the other side, anyway I got there in the end.

As custard suggested using planks underneath, I just happened to have a couple lying around, tried it and it works really well! I'd highly recommend this if your floor is giving you problems.

I had to clamp it down to the bearers just to make sure there was no lift and it's now screwed down on both of them.

so now I just have to wait 24 hours, thanks for everyone's patience, it's getting close now.

picture is attached


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## Wizard9999 (15 Nov 2016)

As ever I am very impressed by your diligence and the results you are delivering =D> . But I do have one question. Your floor is not level, so you have used planks to create a level surface for preparing the bench. Will your bench ultimately sit on that not completely level floor? If so will you have to use some sort of levelling feet?

Terry.


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## thetyreman (15 Nov 2016)

Wizard9999":2cga3au8 said:


> As ever I am very impressed by your diligence and the results you are delivering =D> . But I do have one question. Your floor is not level, so you have used planks to create a level surface for preparing the bench. Will your bench ultimately sit on that not completely level floor? If so will you have to use some sort of levelling feet?
> 
> Terry.



hi terry, thanks. Yes it will sit on the concrete floor, I am planning on using oak wedges under the legs, even though it's not ideal, once it's moved into the correct place in the garage.


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## custard (15 Nov 2016)

Terry, it's good practise to do all glue ups and test assemblies on a known level surface. Otherwise you build twist and wind into a project which then means cabinet doors or drawers will never be properly true and components won't quite come together as planned. You're right, once installed it's unlikely anything will ever sit on a flat surface, but then is the time for wedges or shavings taken off legs, not during the build itself.


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## Wizard9999 (15 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":36xzgdb4 said:


> hi terry, thanks. Yes it will sit on the concrete floor, I am planning on using oak wedges under the legs, even though it's not ideal, once it's moved into the correct place in the garage.



That makes perfect sense, I'll be interested in seeing your ultimate solution and hearing how it works out.

My reason for asking is that while it may be some time until I address it my workshop is missing a bench and the place it will end up sitting is the least even part of my floor #-o . I was thinking about adjustable feet which I have put on my router table which is in the same area in my workshop, but it occured to me that using something like that with a relatively small surface area in contact with the floor may be counter to the idea of making a bench with a bit of heft.

Terry.


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## Wizard9999 (15 Nov 2016)

custard":1ayg6uoa said:


> Terry, it's good practise to do all glue ups and test assemblies on a known level surface. Otherwise you build twist and wind into a project which then means cabinet doors or drawers will never be properly true and components won't quite come together as planned. You're right, once installed it's unlikely anything will ever sit on a flat surface, but then is the time for wedges or shavings taken off legs, not during the build itself.



Yes, well that may explain some of the issues I have had previously (hammer) . Sadly, in the relevant part of my worshop is concerned it would be quite a few shavings required!

Terry.


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## thetyreman (17 Nov 2016)

I finally finished it last night, here's some pictures, it feels unbelievably solid, but I still need to clear a lot of space and move it into place, then fit the vice, so this thread isn't quite over yet.

Instead of using sandpaper, I used a (sharp) card scraper on the legs, and hard to reach area's, I prefered the way this looked to sanding it, and I created a roundover on the edge, mostly because I like the way it looks.

I'm very happy with how it's turned out and how it feels, hope you all like it! cheers. 

p.s in the meantime I'm looking for a vice and thinking about finishes, any help here would be appreciated.


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## OM99 (17 Nov 2016)

Great job, looks really good.

Oli


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## MarkDennehy (17 Nov 2016)

Lovely looking job there thety.


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## focusonwood (17 Nov 2016)

Good job!


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## Bm101 (17 Nov 2016)

Fantastic. Well done TM. You should be well chuffed with that. =D> More pics required.
If I'm honest yourself and Mark have both inspired me (along with some other issues) to pull all ten fingers out my ***e and crack on with mine. Trying to get a little bit done whenever I can. Ten minutes here, half an hour there. Although the lure of the little side projects is strong it must be controlled! Discipline Comrade!

The planes can wait. (Mostly.... might keep a few ideas skimming along there in the background.  )






We need some bench in use photos too!


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## MrTeroo (17 Nov 2016)

Brilliant! 
You must be well pleased? 

Are you going to put a finish on it? 

I painted my aprons/legs and Danish oiled the topgg

Edit: I just read your post again and I see you haven't decided on a finish.


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## MattRoberts (17 Nov 2016)

Looks fantastic, and a real inspiration for when I come to build mine. Enjoy using it!


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## Wizard9999 (17 Nov 2016)

Absolutely top class, I am sure it will give you years of pleasure! =D> 

What sort of vice are you looking to fit?

Terry.


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## thetyreman (17 Nov 2016)

Wizard9999":3rdsnv0v said:


> Absolutely top class, I am sure it will give you years of pleasure! =D>
> 
> What sort of vice are you looking to fit?
> 
> Terry.



not certain on the vice yet, but a vintage record no53E looks pretty good, they aren't cheap though, but I think it'd be worth it.


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## Wizard9999 (17 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":3f2bpfh6 said:


> Wizard9999":3f2bpfh6 said:
> 
> 
> > Absolutely top class, I am sure it will give you years of pleasure! =D>
> ...



OK, well I suggest you use Benchcrafted hardware as a comparison, that way whatever you decide on you will feel you got a bargain  

Terry.


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## biskit (18 Nov 2016)

Great job mr reman.  Can't wait till you knock hell out of it on a few projects. =D>


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## MarkDennehy (18 Nov 2016)

Can happily recommend the 53A as well as a possibility, mine is absolutely brilliant.


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## thetyreman (18 Nov 2016)

I've gone for an eclipse vice, it's a 9 inch one, similar to a record 52 1/2 E, 

link here for anyone that's interested: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1 

they're actually cheaper than old vintage ones, and according to sellers just as good, https://paulsellers.com/2016/06/on-vises-part-i/

should arrive next week so I will find out.


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## NickN (18 Nov 2016)

Well impressed by your progress and the (almost) finished article, didn't take that long either.

That vice you ordered actually has one extra feature which could be very useful at times, the adjustable dog on the front jaw. I think certain vintage vices did have them (non-adjustable ones anyway) but it seems rare to find them, most are just plain jaw with or without quick release - my old Record 53A lacks the dog (and lacked a working QR when it came, but found a source for a new spring).

Please do let us know how you get on with that Eclipse vice, I may even go that route for my bench, maybe using a vintage one for the tail.

The big question: are you going for flush or protruding rear jaw? That argument is almost as provocative as the sharpening ones.


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## thetyreman (20 Nov 2016)

got the vice today already! first impressions are very good, it's extremely heavy and looks great, there's a few minor chips on the paint, the packing could have been better, tomorrow I will make the first steps to installing the beast, there's a lot of sorting and moving the old temporary workbench to make space for the new one.


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## El Barto (22 Nov 2016)

Just been through the thread, gotta say bravo for the work involved and the final outcome. You must be chuffed.


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## thetyreman (22 Nov 2016)

El Barto":2ileb2c6 said:


> Just been through the thread, gotta say bravo for the work involved and the final outcome. You must be chuffed.



thankyou, yes I am very happy indeed, no more wonky bench or fustration every single time I do woodworking, 

when the vice is fit I'll be even happier


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## El Barto (22 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":33vp278y said:


> El Barto":33vp278y said:
> 
> 
> > Just been through the thread, gotta say bravo for the work involved and the final outcome. You must be chuffed.
> ...



Yeah I bet. I'm weighing up building the Sellers bench he shows on YouTube or the one in the book. Seeing yours has made the decision a bit more difficult now... (hammer)


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## thetyreman (23 Nov 2016)

a hole has been chipped out, it fits, but I needed to glue some oak peices I had together for the packing, amazingly it fit perfectly, just my luck.

I've realised it's definitely not as easy as I first thought, mostly because I've never done anything like this before and there's only one chance to get it right, imagine messing it up at this stage? I wouldn't be happy.

I had to degrease the vice as there was way too much on there, then I sprayed it with white lithium grease, it seemed to improve how smooth it opens and closes.

Tomorrow I'm priming the vice and painting it green, I have decided I don't like the blue.

The spare twisted apron I had has been used to put the vice on inbetween test fitting and chipping away, it's proved very useful in the end.

pics coming soon!


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## thetyreman (24 Nov 2016)

ok here's an update, the vice is currently drying, it looks so much better in green, I used hammerite dark green hammered paint, here's some pics, including a photo of the oak spacer. I will need to know, what size hole should I drill for M10 bolts? through the spacer into the benchtop bottom?

enjoy the pics!


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## MrTeroo (24 Nov 2016)

Here are the bolt dimensions






Nice neat hole you chopped


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## thetyreman (24 Nov 2016)

MrTeroo":3lh5bgi7 said:


> Here are the bolt dimensions
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that will prove very useful, thanks.


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## Wizard9999 (24 Nov 2016)

Completely agree, that looks so much better in green!

Terry


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## El Barto (25 Nov 2016)

+1 on the green


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## thetyreman (25 Nov 2016)

vice fully painted, almost dry, the metal beast shalt dry until the morrow,

then aye shalt be fitting it.


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## thetyreman (25 Nov 2016)

more pics


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## thetyreman (28 Nov 2016)

where do you people buy your coach screws from?

I was planning on installing it today, got some M10 coach screws and then some nuts and washers, amazingly the nuts don't even fit! not happy at all, not only that I found out the correct size is M12 not M10, I'll have to get a refund. The only M12 coach screws they did have were way too long, minimum 100mm, and I want M12 75mm long coach screws. 

If I buy some online, where would you recommend getting good quality M12 coach screws, nuts and washers? I only need 2, and the nuts MUST fit for certain.

I've got the M6 coach screws for the jaws into the apron, but again the nuts don't bloody fit, so I can actually use the M6 coach screws and washers but not the nuts...

excuse the pun but it's driving me nuts, indeed one feels like a nutter for asking


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## bugbear (28 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":qn3pb65d said:


> I've gone for an eclipse vice, it's a 9 inch one, similar to a record 52 1/2 E,
> 
> link here for anyone that's interested: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...



Since you've actually got the vise, can you explain what Sellers is talking about here:

_This vise is described as a 9” vise, but they go smaller and larger. Smaller ones can work well for children but for most adults the 9” will best take care of their needs. The larger version, the 10”, is also a good choice and what holds a lot holds a little. You might consider whether you have the upper body strength to handle the larger vise. Most men and women will have a weight to strength ratio capable of working the 9”. Going to the 10” may take more shoulder, upper arm and indeed finger-squeezing strength, but how you measure this is a matter of trying the vise somewhere. Not always possible and most companies will shy away from returns because of shipping costs. A 9” vise has always been large enough for me. Perhaps this is a good guide?_

(confusing stuff in red)

Fitting the vise requires strength (although there are some tricks that help), but I've never found much strength required to operate one. A vise screw amplifies your strength, that's the entire point.

:? 

BugBear


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## MrTeroo (28 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":2siyol4c said:


> where do you people buy your coach screws from?



I have bought from an eBay seller aptly called bolt-world

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-10mm-...hash=item1c64fb7b85:m:mtzwqm90BoekX2mz-vSW4bA


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## thetyreman (28 Nov 2016)

bugbear":39surx1y said:


> thetyreman":39surx1y said:
> 
> 
> > I've gone for an eclipse vice, it's a 9 inch one, similar to a record 52 1/2 E,
> ...



well I tried to find the 10" vice but it's not available in the UK, but it is available in the USA, I think he is just refering to fitting the vice itself.


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## thetyreman (28 Nov 2016)

I could do with some more (ad)vice


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## Bm101 (28 Nov 2016)

Can't help with the nuts particularly fella. Ideally use a little local hardwareshop if you have access to a forkhandle shop. If not I'd not have a search on ebay. I've used a this mob http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M12-12mm-DIAM ... 74773076e5 a few times because they do small quantities at reasonable prices and I've been happy with the stuff that's turned up. But there's loads of suppliers on there of course. I've had good service, so have stuck with a couple of tried and tested sellers like this. You could use Chronos or one of the big boys. There's a sticky thread here of tried and tested suppliers. one-stop-reference-links-t67853.html


I painted my vice green too. :wink: I like the colour. Here it is in a weird love clinch with my workmate. *shudders


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## Bm101 (28 Nov 2016)

Can't really picture how that Paul Sellers comment makes any sense at all as you say. My little lass is 2 and she's bright enough and strong enough to wind the handle up. Not always the right way mind... but she is two. Bear in mind a lot of people add wooden cheeks to extend their vices jaws does this make it harder to use. I'm lost on this one. Sounds like complete guff to me.


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## NickN (28 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":o5amt3ad said:


> where do you people buy your coach screws from?
> 
> I was planning on installing it today, got some M10 coach screws and then some nuts and washers, amazingly the nuts don't even fit! not happy at all, not only that I found out the correct size is M12 not M10, I'll have to get a refund. The only M12 coach screws they did have were way too long, minimum 100mm, and I want M12 75mm long coach screws.
> 
> ...



May need to clear up a bit of terminology here  

Coach *screws* are just heavy duty screws usually with a hex head for driving with a hex driver bit in a drill, or a spanner if you like hard work. Great for joining two bits of timber with a stronger hold than a normal wimpy thin screw. And you can't put a nut on these, it's not a suitable thread.

Coach or carriage *bolts* are standard bolts which usually have a round head, no slot of any kind, and usually a square neck (or cup square) that bites into the timber, or fits into a recess in the metal being attached to the wood, and prevents the nut being able to turn the bolt - these are most useful to put on the outside of shed door hinges to prevent them being undone from the outside.

Now it looks as if Paul Sellers (https://paulsellers.com/2016/06/bench-vise-part-ii/) used coach *screws* with no nut on the other end, to save boring a hole right through the workbench, but you certainly can use bolts instead with a nut on the inside.

But you would need to be careful, do you need a square neck, indeed, has your vice jaw got a square recess, or only round? If only round, you actually need a hex bolt, which will fasten right up to the jaw surface, and you can hold that with the spanner while using another to tighten the nut:







And here's an Ebay listing to help, they have 75mm M12 and supply a free nut and washer with each bolt.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M12-A2-STAINL ... 0812051370


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## thetyreman (28 Nov 2016)

now it all makes sense  you can probably tell I am new to this, so it looks like I don't need the nuts, where I was going wrong was thinking that the hex screw head on a coach screw was actually a nut.... :lol: I guess this is the downside to learning on your own with no mentor to guide you. It's a lot clearer now, so I can continue after all, don't need no nuts, just the coach screws and washers.


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## memzey (28 Nov 2016)

Toolstation and Screwfix sell plenty of both (that's where I have got mine from in the past). Steer clear of Wickes though- stupidly over priced.


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## MrTeroo (28 Nov 2016)

bugbear":33ckl2vm said:


> You might consider whether you have the upper body strength to handle the larger vise. Most men and women will have a weight to strength ratio capable of working the 9”. Going to the 10” may take more shoulder, upper arm and indeed finger-squeezing strength



Maybe he is referring to operating the vice when using the quick release mechanism?


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## NickN (28 Nov 2016)

thetyreman":kug4uhxk said:


> now it all makes sense  you can probably tell I am new to this, so it looks like I don't need the nuts, where I was going wrong was thinking that the hex screw head on a coach screw was actually a nut.... :lol: I guess this is the downside to learning on your own with no mentor to guide you. It's a lot clearer now, so I can continue after all, don't need no nuts, just the coach screws and washers.



I know the feeling well, I stood for quite a while in B&Q puzzling over coach screws and coach bolts before enlightenment gradually dawned - it's the kind of thing no-one ever teaches you at school, well not when I was there anyway. Having now used both types in different scenarios it's become very clear, but it certainly wasn't to start with.

And yes, as long as you haven't drilled the hole right through and out the other side, you can just stick the coach screws in, job done. Some of them even come with 'washers' attached to the head.


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## MarkDennehy (28 Nov 2016)

Woodies or Chadwicks. But it's not like there's a lot of choice over here.


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## thetyreman (2 Dec 2016)

finishing is now done! I applied a layer of de-waxed shellac as a sanding sealer and sanded it to 150 grit before applying 2 layers of varnish. It is johnstones quick dry satin indoor varnish, which is a water based varnish, I didn't want anything shiny, and it looks better than expected, although it would probably look a bit cold and pasticy without the layer of shellac.

after experimenting with different bolts, I have concluded that M14 is the perfect size for this particular vice, so at the moment I'm just waiting until a couple of them arrive with some washers then I can finally fit it.

both M10 and M12 are too thin.

the bench is upside down to make it easier to fit the vice, and so I could paint the legs with 2 layers of varnish easier.

I still need to micro adjust the oak spacer, on one side it's about 1-2mm thicker than the other, this will be planed until the vice is perfectly square to the top, 

I think it's all going to come together next week, I've been busy lately hence the lack of updates.

here's some pics in the meantime.


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## skipdiver (3 Dec 2016)

Very nice tyreman, looks like it will be a pleasure to use. I'm getting the urge to make one despite having a perfectly good (though cobbled together) bench already. I have been watching the Wranglestar Youtube vids of him making it and itching to do some hand cut mortice and tenons. Been too long since i did any by hand for pleasure instead of by machine for profit.


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## memzey (3 Dec 2016)

Very nice! Moody black and white pics a la Chris Schwartz as well - what's next, a roubo with a sliding dead man?


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## thetyreman (4 Dec 2016)

another update, I have installed the vice! it's a lot more work than expected, I used a brace and bit with a 12mm auger for the M14 coach screws, and pre drilled holes for the M6 coach screws that go into the apron. It was well worth using thicker screws instead of M12 in this case, I'd recommend the biggest size you can get hold of that fits, I got my coach screws from bolt world on ebay, I'd recommend them.

currently making the vice jaws from some air dried oak, that I have had for over a year, then I'll take the final shots, even without the jaws it's ridiculous how much easier working is. I tried sawing some oak and planing and it was very satisfying.

I also installed the vice around 1.5 inches from the left leg, instead of it being right next to the leg, the metal vice jaws are around 6mm from the top instead of 4mm, but I won't loose sleep over that, I made sure it was perfectly square to the top, it needed an extra washer underneath on one side. When you tighten the M6 coach screws it goes nice and flush against the apron, so don't worry if there's a slight gap there as there was with mine, the gap closes.

here's some shots, later this evening or tomorrow might be the final shots and I will also do a kind of summary in my last post, saying what I might have done differently e.t.c,

I'm both sad that it's almost over and very excited about getting to use it with some oak jaws, just looking at it makes me want to work.


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## NickN (4 Dec 2016)

Wow! That looks fantastic, my hat off to you for a job that looks amazingly well done.

I can say that if my bench is even close to being that good I will be over the moon with happiness.

And, personally (as I know it's a source of, er, discussion) it's nice to see that the rear vise jaw is mounted on rather than flush with the apron - as it's the way I'm currently planning on doing mine. And should an unusually long piece need support along the front, well, I'll either use apron dogs or the Sellers 'tail-vise-with-sash-cramp' method. They do say that the woodworker's vise is the 'third hand', it must be great finally having a useable bench with one.

Can you still move the bench singlehandedly? :mrgreen:


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## Wizard9999 (4 Dec 2016)

Maybe a dumb question, but how will you fit the oak jaws to the back of the vice as the wholes in th face of the vice have been used to fit the vice to the bench?

Terry.


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## Beachcricket (4 Dec 2016)

Top work! The tool tray is a great addition to a bench, I think I need one.


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## thetyreman (4 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":17h6yzx7 said:


> Maybe a dumb question, but how will you fit the oak jaws to the back of the vice as the wholes in th face of the vice have been used to fit the vice to the bench?
> 
> Terry.



hopefully this will make sense to you https://paulsellers.com/2016/06/vises-part-iii/


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## Wizard9999 (4 Dec 2016)

thetyreman":14qakxmy said:


> Wizard9999":14qakxmy said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe a dumb question, but how will you fit the oak jaws to the back of the vice as the wholes in th face of the vice have been used to fit the vice to the bench?
> ...



Thanks for the link, all clear now.

Terry.


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## bugbear (4 Dec 2016)

Leaving aside all the ("fascinating") arguments about having a front apron, why is the rear apron so thick and heavy?

BugBear


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## swb58 (4 Dec 2016)

bugbear":18xov1iq said:


> thetyreman":18xov1iq said:
> 
> 
> > I've gone for an eclipse vice, it's a 9 inch one, similar to a record 52 1/2 E,
> ...



Apologies if I've missed 'the' answer to this, but I'd imagine it's to do with the force applied by the screw to a given area. If both the 9" and 10" models use the same screw then it's going to apply less pounds per square inch to the 10" vice if the screw is tightened to the same amount.


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## thetyreman (5 Dec 2016)

I've finished it this evening, wow what a feeling, it's actually done  

I used a couple of 1.5 inch thick pieces of oak, which were cut to size, and later planed level with the benchtop, for the back jaw I made it from one solid piece and chiselled out the waste and made holes for the m6 screw heads, I used brass screws to attach it to the apron which looked so much better, plus it won't mess up the oak and contrasts with the dark green well.

I planed the oak jaws by hand using a no4, then finished with a card scraper, with de-waxed shellac as a sealer, not sure what to do with them for the final finish, or whether I will be putting leather on them or not.

All I need to do is put a final layer of varnish on the bench top to help hide where I planed a bit of it when planing the jaws flush, I think it needs one final 3rd layer of varnish.

I have learnt so much and feel a lot more confident now, perhaps the only thing I would change is taking more time when cutting the tenons for the legs, a couple of them were a bit out of square which created a slight gap. What surprised me the most was how much time it took and also how little money it cost me, as time goes on and I use the bench I will consider making a couple of dogs, and definitely some drawers for storage at the ends. 

It's going to take quite a while to get used to the idea that I actually have my own workbench.

I have to say thankyou to all of you who followed this thread, this is genuinely one of the best and most enjoyable projects I've ever done!


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## MattRoberts (5 Dec 2016)

Looks fantastic mate, well done. You've really inspired me to spend the time to make my bench properly, and make sure not to scrimp on the little details just because it's a workbench - so thank you


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## skipdiver (5 Dec 2016)

Looks really good and inspired by your efforts, i gave my bench a makeover today. Fitted a new piece of hardwood to the movable jaw, into which i drilled some dog holes and did a row of dog holes in the bench top after i had planed and sanded it. Was still dead flat, after about 15 years of use. Wanted to varnish it too but ran out of steam and it will have to do until i get around to making a new one like yours. Well done.


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## thetyreman (5 Dec 2016)

memzey":18njbq99 said:


> Very nice! Moody black and white pics a la Chris Schwartz as well - what's next, a roubo with a sliding dead man?



:lol:


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## Wizard9999 (6 Dec 2016)

Really great thread, thanks for sharing your journey.

I looked at the link to Paul Sellers you provided and went on to read his three parter on installing a vice. I have to say that looking at the pictures you have posted yours looks a lot tidier than his does. Top notch.

All the best now it comes to using it.

Terry.


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## thetyreman (6 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":1s30b6lj said:


> Really great thread, thanks for sharing your journey.
> 
> I looked at the link to Paul Sellers you provided and went on to read his three parter on installing a vice. I have to say that looking at the pictures you have posted yours looks a lot tidier than his does. Top notch.
> 
> ...



thanks a lot terry, not sure I have the aquired knowedge of paul though, or experience, although I'm very happy as it's turned out much better than I expected.

I am happy that I shared it with others instead of keeping it to myself, posting on this forum also helped me to keep motivated, it's more work but well worth it.

The only thing is I am sad it's over, but I have a LOT of things I plan on building with it, beginning today.


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## thetyreman (6 Dec 2016)

MattRoberts":32m30z1v said:


> Looks fantastic mate, well done. You've really inspired me to spend the time to make my bench properly, and make sure not to scrimp on the little details just because it's a workbench - so thank you



thanks, I'm happy it has inspired you to make one


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## thetyreman (6 Dec 2016)

skipdiver":l5t9ezt0 said:


> Looks really good and inspired by your efforts, i gave my bench a makeover today. Fitted a new piece of hardwood to the movable jaw, into which i drilled some dog holes and did a row of dog holes in the bench top after i had planed and sanded it. Was still dead flat, after about 15 years of use. Wanted to varnish it too but ran out of steam and it will have to do until i get around to making a new one like yours. Well done.



thanks, good to know it's still flat after all that time.


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## El Barto (9 Dec 2016)

Looks banging! Congrats on a job well done.


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## FatmanG (20 Nov 2019)

Really enjoyed reading this thread and as a newbie to woodworking along with Paul Sellers has given me the confidence and motivation to build my very first bench. Incidentally I got my record 53A vice this morning I can't wait to fit it. I hope it turns out like yours. Great work sir


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## thetyreman (20 Nov 2019)

FatmanG":1s2lt3t7 said:


> Really enjoyed reading this thread and as a newbie to woodworking along with Paul Sellers has given me the confidence and motivation to build my very first bench. Incidentally I got my record 53A vice this morning I can't wait to fit it. I hope it turns out like yours. Great work sir



thanks man, I'm happy it has motivated you to get started.  let us know how it goes.


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## mikej460 (21 Nov 2020)

looking good


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## DBT85 (21 Nov 2020)

Mike the threadnomancer!


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## Jameshow (21 Nov 2020)

I've just been tidying my bench and wall board and come in here and got severe workbench envy!!!





Cheers mate!!!


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## mikej460 (21 Nov 2020)

DBT85 said:


> Mike the threadnomancer!


Made a joke, then reread and thought it could be misinterpreted


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## Pineapple (13 Sep 2021)

thetyreman said:


> managed to get 2 of the four rails finished, and kept taking away a bit at a time, making sure it all fits, it takes longer than expected but is very satisfying when it fits, VERY
> 
> I cut myself quite badly with a chisel when paring one of the tenons so have had to stop for now, it's my own fault for being tired, will see how I feel tomorrow. I will upload new pics tomorrow to show the progress. It's surprising how much I am enjoying this so far apart from cutting myself lol onwards and upwards (literally)
> 
> @mark, I doubt I will get the end vice, but thanks for the suggestion.


I've found that, with a couple of home-made bench-dogs & a pair of opposing wedges, an end-vice isn't needed. - Also, have you considered using:


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Horrible stuff, its only virtue is its price.


or stud walls.


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## thetyreman (13 Sep 2021)

Pineapple said:


> I've found that, with a couple of home-made bench-dogs & a pair of opposing wedges, an end-vice isn't needed. - Also, have you considered using:




well I made the bench 5 years ago now, I have changed my opinion a lot in that time, I drilled two holes at the vice end of my bench and use simon james bench dogs, it works very well when needed especially for very thin stock that can't be planed in a vice.


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## Cabinetman (13 Sep 2021)

How to fit a planing stick to a bench with a well.


Finally got around to trying this on my bench which is fastened to the wall and has a plywood well behind a big heavy lump of beech. The stick I am fitting is about a metre long just over an inch thick and will end up being the same height as the depth of the well, I am using 3 inch coach...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk




Big fan of Mike Siemsen's methods and adapted his planing stick as above, Holdfasts are so useful! I can recommend Gramercy ones, made in America and available from a German supplier. Ian


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## Pineapple (14 Sep 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> How to fit a planing stick to a bench with a well.
> 
> 
> Finally got around to trying this on my bench which is fastened to the wall and has a plywood well behind a big heavy lump of beech. The stick I am fitting is about a metre long just over an inch thick and will end up being the same height as the depth of the well, I am using 3 inch coach...
> ...


Can You Name your German Supplier of Gramercy Holdfasts, please ?


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## rob1693 (14 Sep 2021)

3/4 Inch Bench Hold Downs, Holdfasts, VERITAS Surface Clamps | FINE TOOLS


Get a quick, firm and fuss-free hold on workpieces on your work table or workbench with bench hold downs and holdfasts ! It is easy to do with these types of clamps, known generally as holdfasts. They insert into a round hole in the work surface, and with a thumbscrew or a simple tap with a...



www.fine-tools.com


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## Pineapple (14 Sep 2021)

rob1693 said:


> 3/4 Inch Bench Hold Downs, Holdfasts, VERITAS Surface Clamps | FINE TOOLS
> 
> 
> Get a quick, firm and fuss-free hold on workpieces on your work table or workbench with bench hold downs and holdfasts ! It is easy to do with these types of clamps, known generally as holdfasts. They insert into a round hole in the work surface, and with a thumbscrew or a simple tap with a...
> ...


Thank you, Rob, but the shipping costs from Germany are prohibitive. _ Surely SOME-ONE in SHEFFIELD could offer similar quality at a much more reasonable cost per pair ?


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## rob1693 (14 Sep 2021)

The simon james ones are supposed to be good they're £49 from workshop heaven










Simon James Holdfasts (Pair) with Free 19mm Auger


Buy Simon James SJJR Holdfasts for 19mm (¾in) holes online at Workshop Heaven. Friendly service, useful advice, next day delivery and lifetime guarantee.




www.workshopheaven.com


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## Jameshow (14 Sep 2021)

Pineapple said:


> Thank you, Rob, but the shipping costs from Germany are prohibitive. _ Surely SOME-ONE in SHEFFIELD could offer similar quality at a much more reasonable cost per pair ?


Any blacksmith should be able to make some? 

Cheers James


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## Cabinetman (15 Sep 2021)

Pineapple said:


> Can You Name your German Supplier of Gramercy Holdfasts, please ?


Thanks to Rob, that was the company I was meaning, I actually brought mine back from the US last time. Just looked and they are $40 a pair, will call them tomorrow to see if it’s possible to order direct from the uk. Ian


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## xraymtb (15 Sep 2021)

rob1693 said:


> The simon james ones are supposed to be good they're £49 from workshop heaven
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’ve got a pair of these - no complaints


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## Orraloon (15 Sep 2021)

I would be looking at Amazon or ebay. No argument the Gramercy ones are nice but cost a bit much in my opinion. 
Or wooden ones. Most basic are branch forks cut right from the tree or make them.
Wooden holdfasts - YouTube 
Regards
John


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## Pineapple (15 Sep 2021)

xraymtb said:


> I’ve got a pair of these - no complaints


Subtotal£49.00Delivery (Courier - UK Express (N))£8.00Includes VAT of£9.50*Grand Total£57.00*


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## Cabinetman (15 Sep 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Thanks to Rob, that was the company I was meaning, I actually brought mine back from the US last time. Just looked and they are $40 a pair, will call them tomorrow to see if it’s possible to order direct from the uk. Ian


No sorry they don’t deliver to the UK, France and Germany yes, perhaps it’s a distributorship area thing. 
Perhaps I should arrange to buy a load here in the US and ship them home for private sale. 
Just curious would £45 a pair be an attractive price? Ian


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## Cabinetman (15 Sep 2021)

Not sure how they would stand up – the way I wallop mine, I think people used antler horn as well which might be a bit stronger.


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## Pineapple (31 May 2022)

thetyreman said:


> not at all matt, it cost £19.20 for this lot of wood, it was also PAR because I didn't want to be faffing about spending years squaring it lol the build is challenging enough as it is!
> 
> p.s what does CLS actually stand for? I don't have a clue.
> 
> obviously once I buy all the wood and the vice it will cost a lot more, I predict £100-£150.











CLS Timber (75mm x 50mm)


CLS stands for ‘Canadian Lumber Standard’. CLS was originally manufactured in Canada for use in the building of timber framed houses, hence it’s name. CLS timbers are imported from both Canada and Europe and used for internal studding, partitions, framing etc. CLS is produced from kiln dried...




timberstoreonline.co.uk


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## thetyreman (31 May 2022)

Pineapple said:


> CLS Timber (75mm x 50mm)
> 
> 
> CLS stands for ‘Canadian Lumber Standard’. CLS was originally manufactured in Canada for use in the building of timber framed houses, hence it’s name. CLS timbers are imported from both Canada and Europe and used for internal studding, partitions, framing etc. CLS is produced from kiln dried...
> ...


I've since learnt what CLS means but thanks, glad I build it when I did and used PAR redwood pine, with todays prices it'd cost at least double what I paid for the wood.


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