# What is the going cost for boiler replacement these days



## devonwoody (13 Dec 2016)

Our C/H system installed 1984 and boiler last replaced 1997.

So it is getting old and uninsureable,.

What do you reckon is the average replacement rate for a complete new system? (getting old and did not expect to be here to replace) :wink: 

Bungalow, two bedrooms, and already insulated. (Not London Rates)


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## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

Is the current one wall or floor mounted


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## devonwoody (13 Dec 2016)

lurker":t97s8hu4 said:


> Is the current one wall or floor mounted



Its floor mounted and the old fashioned system. (hole in wall)

New one will be going on a wall otherside of kitchen, pipe through roof and plumbing and gas nearer than before.


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## Sheffield Tony (13 Dec 2016)

devonwoody":1498sa12 said:


> So it is getting old and uninsureable,.
> What do you reckon is the average replacement rate for a complete new system?



I'm struggling here - you want to replace the boiler because it is too old for you to insure against it breaking down _and needing to be replaced _ :?: :lol:


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## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

A few years back my boiler (that I fitted 28 years previously) sprung a leak so had to be replaced.
After discussing this with my tame plumber we decided to fit an overely expensive floor standing boiler (simple swap job, done in a day & no mess) rather than replumb the house (with a far cheaper boiler) and end up with a similar sized bill. 

The problem is, floor standing boilers are few & far between these days.
The one I bought would be more suitable for a house 3 times the size.
Having said that its noticably more economical to run.
Its not a combi. I know 3 plumbers and they all say you need to factor in a short life time for combies.


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## transatlantic (13 Dec 2016)

You don't mention if its oil or gas. Oil is a lot more from what I'm told.

I have a similar size house and was told by my heating engineer not to expect much change from £4k for a replacement boiler (oil combi), but I'm not sure if that also included fitting, but you say you want a 'complete new system'? I assume you don't also mean new pipework/radiators etc?


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## Fitzroy (13 Dec 2016)

Boiler unit £750 - £1500 depending on fuel and duty
Installation £1500-£3000 depending on location, flue complexity, change from tank to combi system etc.

Based on my experience with 2 houses in last years, and two colleagues whom I was just chatting to about this at lunch. Overall change out of £3k is unlikely and could easily be pushing £4k. I got £800 rebate from BG and Scottish government when I replaced mine, due to improving efficiency of the unit. I think BG have a £400 trade in scheme at the moment.

F.


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## woodpig (13 Dec 2016)

The direct replacement for our current combi is about £530 (screwfix) plus fitting. Even if it took all day I'd be loath to pay more than £500 labour. I'd probably try to get a mate to do it though as he's a boiler engineer. 
How do folks get £3 - 4K for fitting a boiler?! :roll:


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## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

BG are world class scam artists. Any "discount" will cost you piles in the long run. 

No self repecting plumber would work for them, their training centre is not far from where I work and you can see them leaving ,dragging their knuckles along the ground to their vans. Then they have a competion to see who can cut up the most motorists heading for the M1.


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## Blockplane (13 Dec 2016)

Paid roughly 3 1/2 thousand (for a combi) this time last year, but that did include replacing 8 radiators (one of them re-sited) which they insisted had to be done, plus re-siting boiler from living room to bathroom c/w extra pipe run and new flue.


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## themackay (13 Dec 2016)

I recently replaced my oil combi roughly £2500 for boiler plumber one day to fit I had most of the pipework already altered near ready for connection and made the hole in the wall for flue watch because many plumbers/installers charge a large fee


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## MIGNAL (13 Dec 2016)

woodpig":1tl11e8h said:


> The direct replacement for our current combi is about £530 (screwfix) plus fitting. Even if it took all day I'd be loath to pay more than £500 labour. I'd probably try to get a mate to do it though as he's a boiler engineer.
> How do folks get £3 - 4K for fitting a boiler?! :roll:



I paid £950 a few years ago, combi and fitting included. There's no way that I would pay 3 or 4K for a direct boiler replacement. I very much doubt that I would pay 2K. I know they have costs - van, insurance, professional fees etc. but I ain't paying for their return flight to Barbados.


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## sunnybob (13 Dec 2016)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26KW-COMBI-BO ... SwPYZU9bJw

This is the DEAREST one listed on ebay. I dont see any need to replace any radiators or pipework unless there is a leak, or they are so old as to be iron (galvanised) pipes.

You can do all the pipework yourself as long as you have a gas certified engineer to commsision it (assuming you are using gas of course).

A point to note, combi boilers nowadays are "condensing" combi bollers. They need a drain pipe (15mm copper) run to an outside drain as the condensing system can flush out very acidic water every so often.


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## Sheffield Tony (13 Dec 2016)

sunnybob":23kag262 said:


> You can do all the pipework yourself as long as you have a gas certified engineer to commsision it (assuming you are using gas of course).



I did this. Well, the wet plumbing anyway. It took a _long_ time on the phone to find a gas fitter willing to install the gas pipework and commission it. I suspect this is not unrelated to the rates of pay equal to a Barbados holiday charged for fitting a full system. Obviously if you've plumbed in all your radiators yourself, you aren't going to pay £1000 for 20' of gas pipe and a few minutes with a manometer. I was surprised when I bought the boiler from a builder's merchants, that after a sharp intake of breath at the list price, I was immediately offered a 40% discount. I suspect the list price is just for the gas fitter to show the naive customer.


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## devonwoody (13 Dec 2016)

Thanks all for your input.
I have done pipework in the past, but my days of DIY plumbing under floorboards etc. are over, I need lifting up myself if you know the trouble these days.


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## John Brown (13 Dec 2016)

sunnybob":366nvlqz said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26KW-COMBI-BOILER-5-RAD-CENTRAL-HEATING-SYSTEM-SUPPLIED-AND-FITTED-IN-ESSEX-/272481720155?hash=item3f712d175b:g:7hIAAOSwPYZU9bJw
> 
> This is the DEAREST one listed on ebay. I dont see any need to replace any radiators or pipework unless there is a leak, or they are so old as to be iron (galvanised) pipes.
> 
> ...


The problem with installing a new, condescending boiler into a system with old pipework and radiators, is that the plate heat exchangers used in condensing boilers will not tolerate even the tiniest particles of sludge and rubbish. You'll end up being ripped off even more for a "powerflush".


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## Woodchips2 (13 Dec 2016)

Devonwoody
I had a combi boiler and two new radiators installed in a two bedroom bungalow a couple of years ago for £2,200 by a company from Torquay including a MagnaClean. They took out the old back boiler, cleared the tank from the roof and completed it all in a day. British Gas quoted over £5k and reckoned it would take them a week.
Regards Keith


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## devonwoody (14 Dec 2016)

Woodchips2":2xy5o5o2 said:


> Devonwoody
> I had a combi boiler and two new radiators installed in a two bedroom bungalow a couple of years ago for £2,200 by a company from Torquay including a MagnaClean. They took out the old back boiler, cleared the tank from the roof and completed it all in a day. British Gas quoted over £5k and reckoned it would take them a week.
> Regards Keith



Thats more like it, if you want to pm me the company much obliged 

I saw four BG vans outside a bungalow on our patch the other month, I suppose one was to make the teas!


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Dec 2016)

" ... The problem with installing a new, condescending boiler ..."
I had one of them in my old house.


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## devonwoody (14 Dec 2016)

phil.p":t3injdu8 said:


> " ... The problem with installing a new, condescending boiler ..."
> I had one of them in my old house.



I cannot get another replacement boiler for my Ideal Mexico boiler the old system with tank and airing cupboard tank and fitting a small kitchen space. Or can I?


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## Eric The Viking (14 Dec 2016)

I'm pretty certain you can get something. We have a Vaillant "system" boiler. It's condensing, so it's efficient, but it's NOT a combi (instant mains-pressure hot water). It looks like most modern boilers - a 4" small flue that's also the air inlet. It does hot water via a piping coil in a pressurised hot water tank.

Worcester Bosch are a good make (I think Vaillant's reputation for being good quality is undeserved), but you might also consider Keston, an all-British company: they are physically small, and their inlet and exhaust piping can be split into two separate small plastic pipes, so they will, for example, fit on internal walls neatly. They're popular in churches and small public buildings because they'll fit almost anywhere. I'd say a Magnaclean is just good sense, and you don't or shouldn't need lots of radiators replacing, as long as they are cleaned and in good order. A proper cleaning flush-out is common sense though, as is using a good quality corrosion proofer (after some wasted money I've gone back to Fernox).

If you find someone by local recommendation, that's probably much better than just a good price. I once allowed a plumber to do one of our bathrooms, after my wife chose them. I ended up redoing almost all of the piping myself because of leaks! A good plumber has two characteristics (a) skill and experience, (b) honesty.

I'm an amateur plumber: I'm no longer allowed to fit my own boilers, but I do radiators and water plumbing as the need arises. Often a plumber's idea of reliability isn't that of the householder: how many times has he been called back to the property in the warranty period? You're interested in how much it will cost to maintain over, say ten years. A good local plumber will know about that...

.


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## Eric The Viking (14 Dec 2016)

Should add that combis have a mechanism inside to switch from central heating to hot water mode. These wear out and fail expensively. You are in a reasonably soft water area I think (water off Dartmoor granite), which helps, but the advantages of not having a combdi are twofold: boiler is more reliable as it's mechanically much simpler, and hot water flow is better (combis take ages to fill a bath, although they are OK with showers). If you can, insulate your hot piping really well for a combi, otherwise any taps at the end of a long run will take ages to come hot. Also try not to draw off hot water in short bursts, as that makes the mech switch a lot.


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## Rorschach (14 Dec 2016)

The problem with big companies that employ plumbers on salary, such as BG, is that there is no incentive to be fast and efficient. The plumber doesn't benefit by working hard nor is there much incentive to do a good job other than the fact that they don't want to be called back (likely another plumber would do that anyway). 
What this means is that they are slow, and if they are slow then the company doesn't get as many jobs and then the cost skyrockets. BG is probably able to negotiate really good deals on parts because of the quantity they buy, and they want to buy reliable items too so that they make the most from their insurance plans, but they lose vast amounts on labour costs because their plumbers travel a lot and are slow at their job.

The ideal (in theory and discounting cowboys) is really a smaller, local, independent outfit, they should know the reliable boilers as they want to minimise follow ups, they should also be able to get a fair deal on the price, maybe not the lowest but not bad. Most importantly though the labour cost will be much lower because it is in their interest to work quickly and efficiently so they can move onto the next job, but they will also want to do a decent job of it so they don't have to come back as that is lost money.


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## Woodchips2 (14 Dec 2016)

Woodchips2":2dau6lh2 said:


> Devonwoody
> I had a combi boiler and two new radiators installed in a two bedroom bungalow a couple of years ago for £2,200 by a company from Torquay including a MagnaClean. They took out the old back boiler, cleared the tank from the roof and completed it all in a day. British Gas quoted over £5k and reckoned it would take them a week.
> Regards Keith



Pm sent Devonwoody

Regards Keith


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## lurker (15 Dec 2016)

My plumber is always busy and he tells me proudly he has never advertised in his life.
He was recommended by a friend and I think i have recommended him to maybe 20 others who have been pleased with his work and attutude.
They are out there you just need to find them.


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## lurker (15 Dec 2016)

devonwoody":2o4rjpsd said:


> phil.p":2o4rjpsd said:
> 
> 
> > " ... The problem with installing a new, condescending boiler ..."
> ...



Read again what I wrote earlier


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Dec 2016)

I have had experience of four condensing boilers, two of them new, and I have yet to come across one that delivered the hot water needed anything like quickly - and if you needed it from two taps at the same time (a ridiculous expectation in 2016, I know  ) you could go whistle.


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## Eric The Viking (15 Dec 2016)

phil.p":hp3s406e said:


> I have had experience of four condensing boilers, two of them new, and I have yet to come across one that delivered the hot water needed anything like quickly - and if you needed it from two taps at the same time (a ridiculous expectation in 2016, I know  ) you could go whistle.


Phil, I think you're muddling two aspects of the design: 

Condensing boilers recover more heat from burning (gas, usually). It's analogous to a triple expansion steam engine. It doesn't affect the hot water production at all. We have one, but right next to it there's a big pressurised hot water tank, and it fills a bath in about four mins. It is not a combi though.,

Combi boilers have an extra, small heat exchanger built in, that's switched into use when you turn on a hot tap (and the pressure drops in the pipe). That heat exchanger heats the hot water instantly - there's no storage of it.

Combis always significantly reduce the hot water flow, as they have to put the water slowly through the heat exchanger, in order for it to heat up. You could make a boiler with a bigger hot water heat exchanger, but it would cost much more, and probably waste energy.

Combis are compact, and relatively easy to install (as a system) as there are no external tanks. IMHO, as a householder they are a pain to live with, even more if you're in a hard water area, as you need to soften the feed for the hot water or risk damaging the boiler, and that's one more thing to look after.


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## Gerry (15 Dec 2016)

Have a look at Intergas boilers
Only 4 moving parts inside and they can be set as either combi or system boilers and hot water only if the heating side is off.
Mine delivers a steaming hot bath of water at full mains pressure and you still need to add cold water even if the outside temperature is below freezing.
We have the Combi Compact HRE 36/30 model.
It heats my 4 bedroom semi (9 double rads) with ease and steaming hot water to the tap takes under 10 seconds.
We love it after suffering a Baxi for years where we couldn't even have a hot bath during winter without having to run it at a trickle.

Gerry


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Dec 2016)

Eric, you are of course correct. It's the combi boilers I wouldn't give house room.


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## Eric The Viking (15 Dec 2016)

I think I _was_ correct - Gerry's post indicates the technology is improving (not before time!). I'll follow those links when I get a moment, as they sound interesting.


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## transatlantic (15 Dec 2016)

I have an oil combi system (located in garage about 8ft from house). The only issue I have with it at the moment is that it takes FOREVER for the hot water to come through, I'm talking 2-3 minutes, sometimes even longer! Which I'm going to assume is a fault with my system, as most people say it takes around 30s max. I'll get it looked into at some point, but at the moment, it's not a huge concern. I only ever use hot water for baths and for washing up. For the bath, the initial cold water cools down the later hot water to a comfortable temperature, and for washing up, I just let it run a bit first.

The cycle is almost always the same though, and how much I turn the tap on doesn't seem to make a difference. It just seems to take forever for the boiler to detect that I'm requesting hot water. 

- Turn tap on 
- wait 2 minutes
- Hear boiler fire
- vey hot water 10s later

I know that the fact that the boiler is outside isn't helping things, but the fact that I only hear the boiler fire up 2 minutes after turning on the tap suggests to me it's not a slow heating issue, but more of a slow detection issue. Central heating works fine though.


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## Sheffield Tony (15 Dec 2016)

I lived in a flat with a combi boiler once. I wasn't sure if the "Glow Worm" was the brand, or equivalent power output :lol: 

Anyway, the cycle for running a bath went like this:

1: Turn on tap fairly fast - or the boiler wouldn't fire.
2: Back off tap to the thin stream which was all the boiler could manage to sustain hot water at.
3: Wait for the tap washer to expand with the heat, closing the flow to the point the boiler cuts out.
4: Pump overrun dumps all the heat from the boiler into the radiators, before you've noticed what happened.
5: The now cold water cools the tap, and your bath.
6: Goto 1

Won't be having a combi again in this life or the next.


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## devonwoody (15 Dec 2016)

lurker":34ms15iz said:


> devonwoody":34ms15iz said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":34ms15iz said:
> ...



Lurker, I would need a new kitchen with yours. no floor space left in ours. :wink:


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## Marineboy (15 Dec 2016)

Had a baxi back boiler c 1990 when we moved in in 2000. Never got the house anywhere near hot. Stored water supplied from a header tank which due to the building design only just provided enough head to give a weak flow at hot taps. 

Had a combi installed about 3 years ago. Heating engineer (they don't like being called plumbers) and his mate on site for two days, put boiler in airing cupboard, removed cylinder and header tank, spent about 2 hours with a core drill getting through our 18" thick solid wall for the flue. Charged me about £2.2k including boiler, excellent job. Hot water is pretty much instant, mains pressure so great showering, radiators are too hot to touch within 10 minutes of firing up. 

I think some of the dissing of combis is due to people's experience of when they were unreliable and the usual 'stuff was better when it was simpler.' They are much improved. Mine is a Baxi Duotec, came with a 7 year parts and labour guarantee. Have it serviced every year by Baxi at about £80 a pop. Admittedly, if you have a large family or lots of demand on your hot water a combi is probably not the best solution but if it suits your needs it can't be beaten.


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## lurker (15 Dec 2016)

Marineboy said:


> Heating engineer (they don't like being called plumbers) quote]
> 
> Having seen my son sweat (for more than 14 years) through his various qualifications including CEng. I dont like to see semi skilled technicians passing themselves off as engineers :evil:
> 
> Its a criminal offence in Germany and we need the same here.


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## Marineboy (15 Dec 2016)

Oops, obviously touched a nerve there, for which I apologise. I was just quoting what several er, technicians, have said to me in the past


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## Austinisgreat (15 Dec 2016)

lurker":tfz39u8d said:


> Marineboy":tfz39u8d said:
> 
> 
> > Heating engineer (they don't like being called plumbers) quote]
> ...



You may well be right lurker,

BUT to become a GAS SAFE (was CORGI ) registered engineer in UK - given adequate skills, obviously, takes a few thousand pounds, and, but more importantly, sponsorship from a company who are corporately members of GAS SAFE.

As an indepenent installer, of whatever age, unless you can provide a portfolio of work you have done under the scheme you cannot get qualified. How many reg installers will take someone on for no pay just to get their portfolio so they can go on and start up on their own as independents? Not a lot. 

Anyway this is way off the OP's topic.

I replaced my own floor standing oil fired system boiler last year for about £1200. Its called a Grant. 

|HTH

Andrew


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## devonwoody (21 Apr 2017)

End of winter and my boiler still going strong after 20 years, and thinking should I replace this summer and got this information of price off the web under £1500!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.boilerworx.com/Installation? ... AhHE8P8HAQ


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## finneyb (21 Apr 2017)

devonwoody":3p4uzlam said:


> End of winter and my boiler still going strong after 20 years, and thinking should I replace this summer and got this information of price off the web under £1500!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> http://www.boilerworx.com/Installation? ... AhHE8P8HAQ



You missed out the all important word *FROM* £1495

I can hear the extras going ker-ching ker -ching as the bill rises. 
Need to run 20mm gas pipe; need to amend the pipework, and the electrics and the flue.

Brian


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## devonwoody (21 Apr 2017)

Yeah Yeah Yeah, I 'll let you know the worst.


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## finneyb (21 Apr 2017)

If it helps I paid £400 to have a boiler fitted as a 'foreigner' 18 months ago 
Boiler was extra.

Brian


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## whiskywill (21 Apr 2017)

lurker":24u7m0y7 said:


> BG are world class scam artists.
> No self repecting plumber would work for them, their training centre is not far from where I work and you can see them leaving ,dragging their knuckles along the ground to their vans.



I have a boiler service contract with BG. During the annual service last December I asked the "engineer" to fix a leak from a rather inaccessible compression joint. His report said that he did, but the leak returned in January. On Monday of this week I measured the flow of the leak as nearly a litre in 22 hours. I arranged a call out for another repair and was told that my annual service was due, just 4 months after the last. I refused to accept this as, to me, annual means at yearly intervals.
Yesterday, the engineer spent around an hour sorting out the leak, filled in his report, and left. This morning there was a pool of water beneath the boiler, smaller than before, but still there.


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## Andrewf (21 Apr 2017)

Last year had a new, ordinary boiler installed. Not sure of the price as part of a large building work. However one thing I did discover is that some plumbers maybe good at their jobs, but not up to speed on the latest equipment or very imaginative in ideas. It seemed to be oh that's the way and what I always install. There are a lot of options available. Get plenty of options and investigate plenty of options.


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## garethharvey (21 Apr 2017)

Had a Worcester 42Kw boiler fitter 5 years ago. Had quite a few prices, it was pretty much 3 days work. Boiler was £1200, tank was £600

Had priced from £4,000 to £6,000, plumbers totally taking the p*ss

Finally had a plumber around, did not tell him what I wanted, asked what is daily rate was, he said £200, I asked how long would it take you to take out my old boiler and tank and fit a new one, he said 3 days. We agreed on £600 to fit. Don't think he was too happy though

Some people really do take the p*ss


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## MrDavidRoberts (21 Apr 2017)

do you guys live in 15bedroom mansions that you have to pay 4k or you just allow the guys to take total wee wee and fleece you so bad?
I got my gas baxi done for around 1.1k total in a couple of days.
Just search around and have some basic knowledge of how much things cost...


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## tomatwark (22 Apr 2017)

You also need to make sure your plumber has the correct bits of paper.

Someone who has a Gas Safe sticker on his van may not be passed to install a boiler.

A customer of mine found this out recently when they bought a house with a new boiler in it, which did not work properly.

The plumber he asked to look at it found the incoming gas pipe was not big enough, when he looked up the plumber who installed it for the previous owners on the Gas Safe register, the guy was not passed to install boilers.

This could mean the warranty or your house insurance may not be valid.

The previous owners went for the cheapest quote.


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## MrDavidRoberts (22 Apr 2017)

tomatwark":1diaz051 said:


> You also need to make sure your plumber has the correct bits of paper.
> 
> Someone who has a Gas Safe sticker on his van may not be passed to install a boiler.
> 
> ...



yeah I'm not buying in all that...just goes to show you have to do your research , that's all 
If you are at least aware of how much things cost you should figure out what is reasonable quote and what is not...
If they are charging 4k to fit 800 boiler and it takes them 2days to do that and if you still think 4k is reasonable than go ahead by all means, they just need to get few suckers like that to laugh all the way to bank.


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## tomatwark (22 Apr 2017)

I wasn't even talking about peoples stupidity in spending £4k for a £800 boiler.

The point I was making is ask to see the installers card, it will tell you what they can or can't do legally

If in doubt go onto the Gas Safe registers site and enter the installers gas safe number.


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## the_g_ster (24 Apr 2017)

There are a lot of ranges of prices on here, and some that clearly cite that some HE's are way over priced, and i am sure there are some that are too.

But overall, if you don't wanna get your fingers dirty, and you don't wanna go crawling the net for a cheap boiler then you are gonna pay 

- 700 upwards (with markup for heating engineer on the boiler)
- At least 100-150 for flue
- At least 50 for faffing on other bits

Then time in moving old boiler, sorting new gas connections etc etc

Radiators soon add up, and ripping up floors, carpets, chasing stuff out for pipe work soon adds up too.

For those of us that wanna get their fingers dirty, ripping up floors and pre preparing power etc etc and water inputs all helps, doing rads as well.

Overall, a lean install is gonna be 1200-1500, then once it comes to new other stuff then 2k is easily done.

Btw, we have a relatively new hot water tank system, and compared to a good combination boiler (had a vokera and then a worcester in old house) its rubbish.....as baths soon empty it, then takes time to refill, heating needs to override the lower temp of the hot water tank, and if you are variable with demand etc (away on business, want a sunday lay in etc etc) then you need to have it coming on a few times day (not long) to keep hot.

New combi's are great, and in the summer you don't have a roasting area in the house where the hot water tank is situated.

I am guessing a combi with multi bathroom places is trickier though...


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## lurker (24 Apr 2017)

You can go to gas safe website and enter a person's name and what he is certified to do will pop up.
Saves the embarrassment of asking on the day he arrives.

Alternatively you can see the certified folks close to your postcode.


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## devonwoody (25 Apr 2017)

OK, I have had three quotes in and they all want 3K.

New boiler but they want to put at three different locations, cannot use existing site, (it is just too wide for existing kitchen cabinet)

The neatest solution would be in the old airing cupboard and a combi. (lose hot tank)

However he wants to vent the condensing pipe down ON TO the OUTSIDE layer of the roof tiles (we are a bungalow) kind of free flow into the rainwater gutter. I dont like the sound of that, surely tiles will be dampened each time a boiler is operating and in extreme weather that could also have ice problems.

Your views would not be displayed to the plumber so what do you think of the idea?

(There are drainage locations problems I know.)


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## Myfordman (25 Apr 2017)

This will at best stain the roof, at worst could damage the tiles. 
However long external runs of condensate piping should be avoided as they can freeze up
I would insist on an internal pipe all the way to your waste drain to there is no chance of freezing.


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## devonwoody (25 Apr 2017)

Myfordman":211jqddk said:


> This will at best stain the roof, at worst could damage the tiles.
> However long external runs of condensate piping should be avoided as they can freeze up
> I would insist on an internal pipe all the way to your waste drain to there is no chance of freezing.



Thanks, my thoughts as well.


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## Ring (25 Apr 2017)

Have you got an Intergas installer near you they get a great write up about efficiency and reliability I am looking to fit one of their boilers later this year maybe worth a look. 
Jim


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## Gerry (25 Apr 2017)

I have an Intergas boiler and its been brilliant over the winter, plenty of heat and a constant copious supply of hot water. Even over the winter we can run the hot tap at full to fill a bath and the water is still really hot. Chalk and cheese when compared to the old Baxi I had previously.
It's only been in since last July so time will tell what it's like for reliability.

Gerry


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## Myfordman (25 Apr 2017)

There are at least two types of condensate traps used on boilers.
The worst sort are ones that drip drip drip the condensate down the pipe as it is produced. This type are more prone to freezing if there is a section of pipe outdoors as the drips carry minimal heat energy and so dont thaw any existing ice simply allow it you build up.

Another sort contain a small reservoir with a self starting syphon (or rarely a pump). Here the condensate builds up and then when full it all empties all at once. The resulting quantity of slightly warm water (relative to any ice), help melt any existing ice and flush through the pipe. 

The latter type should be used if there is any portion of the pipe run that could go below freezing point.

Any fitter claiming to be able to insulate external pipes should be regarded with suspicion as this will not reduce the formation of ice at all.
Remember that insulation only changes the RATE of heat transfer and eventually the external pipe will reach outside temperatures.


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## devonwoody (26 Apr 2017)

The condensing pipe for this type of boiler is a problem for my proposed set up. There is only one choice of drain and it is not conveniently placed.
So thinking I will let sleeping dogs lie, one plumber could not believe our existing New Mexico Ideal boiler was in such good condition at 20 years.

So I have three quotes in and I will let them chase me now.


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## finneyb (26 Apr 2017)

If size is a problem I've got a Worcester Bosch Greenstar CDi Compact - it wasn't the cheapest boiler but it fits and is small compared to others. Works well as I suspect most other boilers do.

I found that they only wanted to fit one type of boiler - which of course may not suit your needs.
The alternative way forward is to find a boiler that suits you eg above, and then find the installer.

Brian





3


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## Myfordman (27 Apr 2017)

devonwoody":3py655lk said:


> The condensing pipe for this type of boiler is a problem for my proposed set up. There is only one choice of drain and it is not conveniently placed.
> So thinking I will let sleeping dogs lie, one plumber could not believe our existing New Mexico Ideal boiler was in such good condition at 20 years.
> 
> So I have three quotes in and I will let them chase me now.



In your position, I'd stick the £3k in one of the loss leader bank accounts to earn more than inflation and then using freecycle or similar acquire a few electric heaters for nothing and stick them in the loft ready as insurance against a heating system failure during the winter so you can keep warm whilst the boiler is repaired/replaced.

Good Luck


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## devonwoody (28 Apr 2017)

Thanks for your advice and information, (I have had them stored in the shed some time now around 6 years at least I think.) The wife thinks a warm holiday would do the trick as well.


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## beech1948 (25 Jun 2020)

Apparently the Government is going to outlaw Gas boilers from 2025. That is going to create either a massive amount of work for plumbers or cause many to hang onto their existing boiler.

The issue for me is that the Gov approach lacks a real world view. My boiler produces hot water in 30 secs at a good enough rate to fill a bath in 5 minutes. I doubt the UK Gov will have the experience to meet these simple standards.


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## HappyHacker (25 Jun 2020)

The question for me is what are they going to replace gas with?

Air sourced heat pumps, expensive, require space outside, current models do not produce water at 80 degrees so larger radiators needed, often noisy, can be expensive to run if the system is not correctly designed/configured.

Ground source heat pumps, many of the same problems as above plus need a lot of garden unless a borehole (expensive) is used.

Solar (wet or electric) - fine while the sun shines but in the UK low output during the period of maximum demand.

Hydrogen - Not much currently being produced.

All the above require electricity which is not cheap and may be in short supply with all the electric cars that will need charging. We have still not managed to build any replacements for our old nuclear power stations which are all at the ends of their life and are generally producing over 10% of our power. 

I accept things need to change but do have concerns about the logistics when the technologies to replace gas at a reasonable price are not yet available and five years is not far in the future. If the building regs had been changed a few years ago to improve the insulation and airtightness of new houses well beyond the current levels that would have been a good start. But we have millions of houses built too much lower standards of insulation which are going to need updating and what will be the cutoff for no replacement gas boilers in the existing housing stock. 

I hope my pessimism is misplaced, but there are politicians involved so unlikely.


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## Rorschach (25 Jun 2020)

The gas replacement target is a bit of a PR stunt. There is no credible replacement for the approx 26 million gas boilers currently in service in the UK.

Will there be in the future? Absolutely and I am fully supportive of replacing them with better alternatives, but as it stands at the moment it's a fantasy.


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## Artiglio (25 Jun 2020)

Underneath the headlines it’ll be far less drastic. First move will be no gas in new builds, with plenty of insulation and built well it won’t be too hard, district heating ,ground source, air source, electric would all cope add a small wood burner in difficult cases as a last resort.
Then we’ll get the usual finagling of numbers and there’ll most likely be more bio gas injection into the grid, thus reducing fossil fuel use further.
But as said above there are huge numbers of existing housing for which replacement of gas boilers is currently unlikely. Be much better to try and get all existing stock upto an epc C rating, that’d reduce gas use considerably. The legislation making landlords meet minimum standards is handy in that its allowing an industry to get established and then mature whilst seeing what does and doesn’t work in real life.


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## beech1948 (25 Jun 2020)

Happyhacker,

My question as well. What is a replacement for gas.??

I have noticed that a consortium of Rolls Royce/Smiths and a few others has proposed and developed the idea of small localised nuclear reactors such that 1 or 2 would fuel a small city eg Bristol.

Unlikely to be available for 2025 though.


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## Terry - Somerset (25 Jun 2020)

As is often the case, the way to stimulate new ideas and technological development is regulation. Were there a viable economic alternative already exists, no regulation would be required.

Examples - emissions regulation for cars, insulation standards for new builds, energy ratings etc.

I suspect initially the ban on gas will relate to new installations only. It may include replacements - but more likely this will be added at a later date. The passing of time will improve alternatives, and higher volumes will reduce unit costs. Tax may be used as a 'weapon' - 0% Vat on electricity, 20% on gas??

As gas boilers typically last 15-20 years (or more occassionally there will still be homes heated by gas in 20 years time.


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## D_W (25 Jun 2020)

I may have missed it in the beginning, but what's uninsurable - the structure or the boiler?


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## jimmy_s (26 Jun 2020)

I think you will find that the gas supply will become a mix of natural gas and hydrogen. Thats what I've been told in any event by one of the manufacturers. Air source heat pumps are getting better COP's - such as the new Vaillant heat pump that was released a couple of weeks ago but you cant just slap heat pumps in every property, particularly in towns and cities as the national grid will struggle to cope.
Look for hydrogen ready boilers appearing


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## sunnybob (26 Jun 2020)

Amazing, nobody noticed the THREE YEAR gap between posts a while back, talk about a seamless conversation :shock: :shock: :roll:


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## MikeG. (26 Jun 2020)

jimmy_s":f9sznl77 said:


> ....... Air source heat pumps are........



......air conditioners with good PR. How we have been sucked in by the greenwash on these is beyond me.


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## D_W (26 Jun 2020)

MikeG.":3rvv3885 said:


> jimmy_s":3rvv3885 said:
> 
> 
> > ....... Air source heat pumps are........
> ...



Not sure what you guys see over there typically - the cheap slide in type or the splits. The splits are in another world from a typical A/C and are probably cheaper year-round than oil over there. 

I've got one in a room extension and nat. gas is *really* cheap here since we're sitting in an area where it's fracked - there's not really that much difference here in cost between the two until temperatures get lower than you'd typically see over there. 

The slide is will work with coil assistance down to about -10C. The splits will work to -25C. you have to be at about zero before they start doing much with the coil (as in, efficiency only gets crappy below about zero). 

No experience with the slide ins other than realizing that for where I live, they wouldn't suit. 

don't know what power rates are there, either. Ours are high for the eastern seaboard here, at about what would be a tenth of a pound per KW/hr in converted currency. 

The real sham with the splits over here is that the units cost about $2k for a good japanese brand and the HVAC houses want to charge $5500 installed (four hour install at the most for a single head unit). I used my contractor to buy one at cost through plumbing supply and paid his HVAC subcontractor $500 to install it - I should've done it myself after seeing how little there was to it). the slide ins are about $1000, but garish looking and would have used the price difference in power by now (and not run some days here as they'd shut off due to low temps). 

oil is popular on eastern seaboard where geology doesn't allow for gas lines - but geothermal is getting cheap enough to pay off fairly quickly and replace. Air quality here is going up (different dynamic as the country isn't just a narrow strip with particulates quickly floating out to sea). 

a 22 seer (15eer) unit with heat running down to -13F is hardly just an air conditioner, though.


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## DBT85 (26 Jun 2020)

HappyHacker":1857b6i7 said:


> current models do not produce water at 80 degrees so larger radiators needed,



Note to self, do not touch any radiators in HappyHackers house.


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Jun 2020)

I know aircon is really a sort of air source heat pump, but the superficial PR is quite persuasive - to the point where they may seem like a viable alternative to gas central heating + the benefit of blowing cold air on the occasional warm day.

I would need to do more research on the way they work at more extreme temperatures and the impact on efficiency - eg: can they provide heat when the external temperature is -10C. But if I needed both boiler, pipework, radiators for a replacement or new build it would get a very close look!

But compared to standard gas CH the total installation costs may be close, operating flexibility is much better than most standard gas CH, intrusive radiators not needed, and pipework is smaller flexible and easy to install.


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## Rorschach (26 Jun 2020)

Heat pumps are a great alternative for a lot of the UK as long as the grid can handle the extra load.

They don't work well at extreme low temperatures but how often does that occur? A space heater to bump up the temps on the rare coldest days would be fine for most, especially south of the border.


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## HappyHacker (26 Jun 2020)

DBT85":19bupck6 said:


> HappyHacker":19bupck6 said:
> 
> 
> > current models do not produce water at 80 degrees so larger radiators needed,
> ...



I am very old fashioned and have usually worked on 80 C in and 60C out. Modern thinking appears to be to use a lower temp in which requires larger rads to get the same output but is claimed to give a more even temp across a room and an increase in efficiency. I believe the recommendations for vulnerable people have also increased the use of lower temps as with bath mixers. Unfortunately I am not in a position to go around changing all my rads. 

When my children were young they learnt not to touch the radiators and never got burnt.


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## jimmy_s (26 Jun 2020)

Traditionally 82/71 is what we have used in UK as it relates back to something in farenheit. 

The SCOP of the newer air source heat pumps are a lot better than they used to be. In order to get the best from them the whole system needs to be designed to operate at the lowest practical flow temp.


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## MikeG. (26 Jun 2020)

jimmy_s":2hpbatgi said:


> ......The SCOP of the newer air source heat pumps are a lot better than they used to be.......



Claimed figures and actual in-use figures are very much like claimed MPG figures for cars. Real life COP figures of 2 are rare. When you realise that electricity is typically generated with an efficiency in the low 30% range, and with losses in the distribution the energy efficiency of the electrickery which actually arrives in your house is typically in the 25% to 30% range. It doesn't take a second on the back of an envelope to work out that in energy terms you would be way better off burning the oil or gas directly in your house in a modern efficient condensing boiler (efficiency, depending on how it is calculated, of 80%+........with claimed 95% + being worth another pinch of salt) than you would going the circuitous and inefficient route of burning it in a power station, converting that heat to steam to generate electricity to send miles down the wires where it is converted back into heat. 

Of course, if all our power came from renewables, and there was capacity in the distribution system, then heating by electricity would be fine, despite its enormous inefficiencies. It doesn't, so it isn't.


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## DBT85 (26 Jun 2020)

Yes, but which costs less to heat the house?


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## DBT85 (26 Jun 2020)

HappyHacker":2aiklkok said:


> DBT85":2aiklkok said:
> 
> 
> > HappyHacker":2aiklkok said:
> ...


I believe that for condensing boilers you also need a return of around 55c or lower. Generally effeciency goes up the lower you run it all. 

My old house we splashed the extra for the weather controls and larger radiators so most of the time they were only warm to the touch but the house wasn't cold. When it was cold outside it ran the rads hotter, when it was warmer outside it ran them cooler.

From what I can gather they never really took off in the UK in park because a radiator feeling hot is how many people judge whether they are warm enough. No matter the actual temperature of the room.


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## jimmy_s (26 Jun 2020)

Mike

I agree, I have argued with clients on this point and have walked away from projects where they wouldn't listen, but ASHP's do seem to be getting better. 
The COP depends ultimately on the suction and discharge pressures that the compressor has to work against and also the thermodynamic properties of the refrigerant. I am waiting on the proper info on the new Vaillant R290 (propane) ASHP but on paper it looks pretty decent.


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## Just4Fun (26 Jun 2020)

MikeG.":2seeok4g said:


> When you realise that electricity is typically generated with an efficiency in the low 30% range ...


That applies in the UK, but not everywhere. Combined heat & power (CHP) plants here in Finland typically run at over 80% efficiency. Maybe the UK should bite the bullet and invest in that approach. Expensive to retrofit now but in the long term it could pay off.

The housing estate in the UK where I grew up had all the roads dug up last summer to fit fibre optic cables. Then in the autumn they were dug up again to renew the gas mains. Why couldn't these have been combined and, at the same time, have pipework for a district heating system installed? The additional cost would have been a cheaper way of providing that infrastructure to be ready for replacing individual gas boilers in each home.


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## D_W (26 Jun 2020)

MikeG.":zxye0qh6 said:


> jimmy_s":zxye0qh6 said:
> 
> 
> > ......The SCOP of the newer air source heat pumps are a lot better than they used to be.......
> ...



here in the states (comment withstanding again about particulates), california is going so far as to get nat gas appliances out of circulation (dryers, cooktops/ovens, etc) for a simple reason - they're trying to control emissions of unburned gas and get everyone on grid as generation changes. 

When you talk about something like oil instead of natural gas-generated electricity, you have to include the fact that there's quite a lot of energy spent in faffing about with the oil (probably so than there would be if you were burning gasoline in a car). And there's a quite a bit of filth released burning oil compared to natural gas. 

What the energy company does to generate a converted BTU of electricity will be at far less cost than you burning oil, and the idea that you're burning a btu and 0.95 of it goes into your living space is a bit funny (and if it does exist, it erodes as the equipment gets old). 

We burn gas here for heat. I pay about double the amount that the power generation company does. If I burned oil, i'd be done burning oil at this point and go to a geothermal system for one simple reason. a 100% efficient electrical coil probably has about 3.5 EER. with an ambient outdoor temperature of 45 degrees F (probably about 8C), the system uses one kilowatt to generate 21,500 btu of heat. You can pencil that out. It's probably more efficient to exchange heat with the outside air (which is where most of the heat is coming from) than it is to burn fuel and transfer the heat from the burning through your system. 

The case where I'm not peeing into the breeze here with natural gas is that it gets much colder here than there. below 0F at night several times a year. The only thing that makes that swing efficiency wise is geothermal, where you get the favorable equivalent of the heat exchange mentioned above all the time because the exchange is going on with the ground. The trouble is, a 5k heat pump install (if you had such a thing air to air) becomes about 15k here in the states and it doesn't pencil out yet with nat gas. It does with oil (keeping in mind that we will spend more btus per square foot because our average fall and winter temperature will be lower than probably anything in the UK, and definitely lower than much of it). 

The overall EER rating (vs. seer) of my 21 SEER system is about 14 or 15 (I don't remember exactly, but it's one of those). If we hit that target on the heat side, we're still as efficient or more efficient than your oil burner 14*0.25 vs. 3.5*0.9 or so). With less particulate in the air by a long shot.


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## jimmy_s (27 Jun 2020)

DW, yes I would think for you guys where the external ambient drops considerably ASHP are not an option and GSHP are the only way to go. In order to get a decent COP you will need a decent ground collector heat absorbtion rate either by having a large ground loop which is essentilally a large solar absorber or a number of boreholes. In the UK these have often been undersized resulting in poor COP's. Its always been hard to justify heat pumps here if nat gas is available financially (not carbon emissions) but against oil it often works out better. I've never been that keen on air source unless in areas such as Shetland where the weather is rough but low temperatures are rare (providing the coils are treated for salt spray). But I like to keep an open mind and think they are getting better for the UK climate.


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## jimmy_s (27 Jun 2020)

Just4fun - yes very little large scale CHP schemes over here - a few combined gas turbine/ steam jobs but not that many. We do a few small scale localised CHP schemes. Very few with gas turbines, mostly IC engines - have done some off grid CHP but generally small scale using natural gas or LPG. Looked at gassification and biogas feeds from mesaphilic and thermophilic AD plant but its difficult to get these funded. Larger scale wind power has been popular and battery storage systems also. Been looking at some unusual (to me anyway) battery sytems (sulfur/sodium). Molten sodium is not the best though!


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## D_W (27 Jun 2020)

jimmy_s":1ysfh0f5 said:


> DW, yes I would think for you guys where the external ambient drops considerably ASHP are not an option and GSHP are the only way to go. In order to get a decent COP you will need a decent ground collector heat absorbtion rate either by having a large ground loop which is essentilally a large solar absorber or a number of boreholes. In the UK these have often been undersized resulting in poor COP's. Its always been hard to justify heat pumps here if nat gas is available financially (not carbon emissions) but against oil it often works out better. I've never been that keen on air source unless in areas such as Shetland where the weather is rough but low temperatures are rare (providing the coils are treated for salt spray). But I like to keep an open mind and think they are getting better for the UK climate.



air source are sold here (whole house) in developments where natural gas isn't available. Usually ASHP, propane and GSHP. Propane is sort of a racket and a very expensive way to heat here. Older houses often have oil, but new builds don't generally (I guess because of the plumbing ...who know , oil here is generally water circulation through the entire house. Only popular in floors at this point). I guess the people who get air source are just paying a large bill in the winter - don't know. As you say, natural gas is available where I am and I doubt there's anyone in my township not burning it. Trees fall here in the woods and rot. I've only seen one person in the last 10 years hauling firewood (he's heating a large freestanding garage).


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## jimmy_s (27 Jun 2020)

DW - it sounds about the same in the UK. Propane for most is very expensive. One of the exceptions are caravan parks, who seem to be able to buy it for similar costs to natural gas and can make propane fired CHP work financially.

I am interested to see how we get on with the hydrogen. I once worked on the main UK gas boosting network where they they meter the gas entering the country and control the gas boosters etc throughout the UK. I seem to recall that sections of the network were humidified as the joints in the pipes leaked if the gas was too dry. Not sure how thats going to work with hydrogen injection. I'd think there's going to have to be a lot of investment before it gets off the ground.


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