# Car electrics. Anyone here any good?!



## Cozzer (18 Aug 2022)

Perhaps I should say "any good at explaining in Noddy fashion"!

In UK, Honda 2004 CRV.
Changed the dashboard cluster lights as 2 of 'em had blown.
Result = all the "warning" lights work - handbrake, seatbelt, SRS, oil and so on.

The 4 gauges/dials work - speedo, fuel level, temp, revs - but_ don't light up_.

I've turned the bulbs 180 in their holders. 
I've turned the holders 180.
I've checked the 7.5A fuse governing "gauges".

What else can I look at?!


----------



## Spectric (18 Aug 2022)

Hi 

Just brought a 2006 CRV because it is a more basic vehicle with minimal electonics to cause headaches unlike my last vehicle which was a Peugot.

Remove all the bulbs and refit one at a time and see what happens, are they the right bulbs, check you have not damaged any connectors and they are fully inserted.


----------



## Cozzer (18 Aug 2022)

Thanks, Spectric...
The bulbs have been in/out/turned so many times, my thumbs ache from lifting the little tabs on the blue and green multiconnectors at the top!
At least I haven't got to worry about the cruise/front fog (top left) - that's empty, as are all the A/T gear jobs.
Looking at your graphic, it's the "gauge lights" that aren't working. I saw another video stating that the immobilizer bulb "controls" all the others - i.e. if that blows, they all cease to work - but mine certainly lights.


----------



## Lorenzl (18 Aug 2022)

Is the ground still connected? Crack in a track on the pcb?

You could do with a multimeter but I used to just use a lamp on two pieces of wire when I was younger to check for power. Put it on the positive side of lamp holde and touch it to any bare metal/screw and it should light up - 12v lamp of course.


----------



## guineafowl21 (18 Aug 2022)

The dash illumination bulbs usually come on with the sidelights, so check those are working. Some cars have a pot to vary the brightness, so worth a check for that and if you have voltage there.

The most useful tool for this sort of thing is a 12V test light - attach to battery -ve, and it will light up when touched to +ve, and vice-versa. Also good for checking fuses quickly in situ - attach to earth somewhere, and touch each side of the fuse. Should light up both sides. One side = fuse bad. No sides = fuse not powered. You can check every fuse on the car in minutes.


----------



## Cozzer (18 Aug 2022)

Thanks, gents... In answer to your questions, in no particular order...

Have got goodish Misco multimeter.
Thankfully (!), this model doesn't have a dimmer for the display. (The Honda, not the multimeter!)
Doubt the track problem - the whole PCB is enclosed in plastic, and has been from minute one. (That's not to say it _can't_ be opened up, just that I haven't had need to to replace the bulbs)
As regards touching the + side of each holder, they're not marked. What you see in Spectric's diagram above is what you get. Hence my confusion....you can re-orientate the bulb 180, but you can also rotate the holder 180!

Something else I should mention - the 4 gauges lit before the operation. What had failed was one indicator and the odometer bulb. I thought I might as well replace all 10 rather than have to rip all the panels off again in a month's time when the next failed.

And guess who's kicking himself for being a smartar5e now....



edit... and yes, a 12v test lamp. Just found it in the cellar!


----------



## clogs (18 Aug 2022)

is the wiring connection onto a hard pcb board or it it a flat flappy wire kinda thing.....either way those circuits /connector connections are very delicate....
had a similar prob in the past and just solderd a hot wire or two, by-passing the individual connection to get em working...


----------



## Lorenzl (18 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> edit... and yes, a 12v test lamp. Just found it in the cellar!


I bet your glad you didn't throw that away all those years ago now


----------



## Spectric (18 Aug 2022)

This wiring diagram shows how the tail light supply is derived from the tailgate relay, bear in mind like many vehicle electrical systems they use low side switching so the light switch grounds the relay to operate. 






This is the positive supply to the dash lights, I would have thought you do have a brightness control which on mine is near the fuel gauge and this provides the ground side.


----------



## Spectric (18 Aug 2022)

This is the actual cluster and the five bulbs, Red/Black on B7 is from the tail light relay, the actual function is provided by a mosfet to ground. The brightness control works via the gauge assembly cpu to switch this mosfet. On mine when it reaches max or min brightness levels it beeps.


----------



## Cozzer (18 Aug 2022)

Y'know how they say that the best ideas usually occur to you when you're on the toilet?!
Well, relax....this isn't one of those!
Gave up trying to understand the car as night fell, and decided to drag the dog out into the drizzle.
I wasn't actually thinking about the car at all, but standing in the gloom waiting for him to relieve himself for the twentyeighth time, something hit me....
It might not be the bulbs/circuitry at all.

The left stalk works the indicators, but the "end" of it operates the exterior lights.
The dashboard dials/gauges don't light until you turn the lights on.
Ergo, it could more likely be the stalk/light switch malfunctioning.....

Got home, got in the car, started it and pulled the stalk towards me (so as to let you out of your drive by "flashing" you, as t'were). The headlights flashed, and the blue full beam light on the dash lit momentarily.
Then I tried pushing it away, as if driving with full beam.
The lights worked, but no blue full beam light on the dash.....

More tomorrow, no doubt....


----------



## Fergie 307 (19 Aug 2022)

Not sure if it applies in your case but some vehicles need the electronics reset when certain components have been disturbed. Might be worth disconnecting the battery for a few minutes, then reconnect. And typically your bulbs are not polarity sensitive, which is why it doesn't matter which way round they go.


----------



## manglitter (19 Aug 2022)

Dd you


Cozzer said:


> Y'know how they say that the best ideas usually occur to you when you're on the toilet?!
> Well, relax....this isn't one of those!
> Gave up trying to understand the car as night fell, and decided to drag the dog out into the drizzle.
> I wasn't actually thinking about the car at all, but standing in the gloom waiting for him to relieve himself for the twentyeighth time, something hit me....
> ...


 Have your headlights on when you tried putting your full beams on?
If not they will not stay on...

Also your guage lights will not be lit without at least your sidelights on


----------



## pe2dave (20 Aug 2022)

"Dash lights brightness controller" - Is it working? Is it open circuit? That would kill the lights?


----------



## Cozzer (20 Aug 2022)

pe2dave said:


> "Dash lights brightness controller" - Is it working? Is it open circuit? That would kill the lights?



There isn't one. Not on this model.

Messed around for another couple of hours yesterday afternoon, and roped in a pal of mine who's used to sorting out electrical stuff on mowers and the like. Basically he checked everything I'd already done, and was also none the wiser.
Only thing left - having checked every in-car and under-bonnet fuses - to verify as working are the relays.

I can think of better things to do on a Saturday afternoon....


----------



## Gerry (20 Aug 2022)

Powers and grounds is the first place to start using a test light so it loads the circuit not a multimeter.

Gerry


----------



## Spectric (20 Aug 2022)

You need to take this from a logical perspective and one thing at a time otherwise you may miss the actual fault. The first thing I would check is the relay in the fuseboard under the dash, is it operating when you turn the sidelights on. If this relay is operating then check you are getting voltage at pin B7 on the cluster connector, a Red wire with Black tracer. If you have power here the fault is on the cluster, if not then check fuse 2 under the bonnet.


----------



## John Brown (20 Aug 2022)

New car.


----------



## Cozzer (20 Aug 2022)

Cheers, Spectric....
The in-car fusebox is a right pain!
Underneath the steering wheel, at the side of the central console. The only way I can get to it is by keeping the passenger door open, sliding on my right side across the seat and central tray, before twisting the top of my torso into the driver footwell and looking up! It helps if you also have a torch down there!

The under-bonnet is a breeze in comparison, except trying to interpret the symbols on the inside of the cover!

The sunshine got the better of me earlier - 30 minutes scratching my head with the bonnet open, and then I went to the pub for a brace of Guinness!


----------



## woodieallen (20 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Cheers, Spectric....
> The in-car fusebox is a right pain!
> Underneath the steering wheel, at the side of the central console. The only way I can get to it is by keeping the passenger door open, sliding on my right side across the seat and central tray, before twisting the top of my torso into the driver footwell and looking up! It helps if you also have a torch down there!
> 
> ...


Just a brace ? harrumph....lightweight


----------



## Spectric (21 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> The in-car fusebox is a right pain!


Try measuring the voltage on B7 on the cluster connector first, if that is live with the sidelights on then you can ignore that in car fuse box and the fault is with the cluster somewhere, if it is not then you will have to practice some yoga and access that fuse box.


----------



## Housey210 (21 Aug 2022)

Where did you get the replacement bulbs? Had an issue years ago where the only bulb that would work was the one purchased from main dealer. Apparently something to do the monitoring system and resistance. Some dash bulbs are 14volt too.


----------



## Fergie 307 (22 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> Where did you get the replacement bulbs? Had an issue years ago where the only bulb that would work was the one purchased from main dealer. Apparently something to do the monitoring system and resistance. Some dash bulbs are 14volt too.


having read through all this I would second this. The problem started when the bulbs were changed. Are the new ones the correct voltage? What happens if you put the old working ones back in?


----------



## Mr Wullie (22 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Perhaps I should say "any good at explaining in Noddy fashion"!
> 
> In UK, Honda 2004 CRV.
> Changed the dashboard cluster lights as 2 of 'em had blown.
> ...



A couple of things do the replacement bulbs work have you checked them? Sounds silly but been there before where new bulbs are faulty. 

To recap everything works as it should apart from the above lightening up do they come on with headlights switched on?


----------



## Cozzer (22 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> Where did you get the replacement bulbs? Had an issue years ago where the only bulb that would work was the one purchased from main dealer. Apparently something to do the monitoring system and resistance. Some dash bulbs are 14volt too.



Honda dealer, and all checked with a battery prior to all this farce.
No 14v jobs.


----------



## Cozzer (22 Aug 2022)

Mr Wullie said:


> A couple of things do the replacement bulbs work have you checked them? Sounds silly but been there before where new bulbs are faulty.
> 
> To recap everything works as it should apart from the above lightening up do they come on with headlights switched on?



Just needed side lights and wipers on - no problem.
Radio works. Windows work. Front and rear lights work. Headlights and full beam work. Brake lights work. Sunroof works. Everything works except the dial illumination......but......

Got back home, parked up, took the dog out in the rain.
He paused at the nearest lamppost, 10 yards in front of car.
(Cue big sigh from me, as this would be the first stop of many!) 
Happened to turn around, and spotted the car's sidelights still on, which means......

_The normally audible "you've left your lights on" warning isn't working._

As you've all gathered by now, I'm not good with a wiring diagram, so whether this gives you another clue/zeroes in where the problem lies, I don't know......


----------



## Cozzer (22 Aug 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> having read through all this I would second this. The problem started when the bulbs were changed. Are the new ones the correct voltage? What happens if you put the old working ones back in?


Yes, all proper voltage.
I tried the old "set" back in t'other day, replacing the original 2 duff 'uns with 2 of the new. Same result - no dial lights.
Thought about replacing the 2 new with the original pair that didn't work....but genuinely can't recall if I did so now.
Maybe disturbed with a phone call or something.
It's a thought though - might try this evening.


----------



## Housey210 (22 Aug 2022)

Just wondering if there is a master bulb, like the old xmas tree lights, one goes they all stop! If cluster out check printed circuit card and try to establish feed and neutral as that just may track through one bulb first then out around to ohers.


----------



## Cozzer (22 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> Just wondering if there is a master bulb, like the old xmas tree lights, one goes they all stop! If cluster out check printed circuit card and try to establish feed and neutral as that just may track through one bulb first then out around to ohers.



It's a thought, but I'd like to think Mr.Honda would have considered my 2 a.m. February journey on the M1, and the considerable effect that one bulb failing and taking out the rest would have had on me!


----------



## Spectric (22 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> Just wondering if there is a master bulb, like the old xmas tree lights


These five bulbs are in parallel not in series. If the sidelights are on then that suggest the problem is within the cluster so if you have voltage on B7 then it is on the return / ground side and the fact you have other lights on also suggest they could be trying to ground themselves via another route.


----------



## Housey210 (22 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> It's a thought, but I'd like to think Mr.Honda would have considered my 2 a.m. February journey on the M1, and the considerable effect that one bulb failing and taking out the rest would have had on me!


Just found this on youtube, 2005 honda crv, 
.


----------



## Housey210 (22 Aug 2022)

are they traditional bulbs or led?


----------



## Cozzer (23 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> Just found this on youtube, 2005 honda crv,
> .




Yes, thanks - I'd seen this. There are lots of 'tube videos regarding the same sort of problem, but none have sorted the problem yet.
The bulb laddo features on this particular vid - assuming the Yank version of the car uses the same unit, just on the "wrong" side of the car! - is the immobilizer... and mine works fine.
Even if things were sided/reversed, that bulb is for cruise control/fog lights - mine has neither.


----------



## Cozzer (23 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> are they traditional bulbs or led?



Traditional.
Did think about swapping but never got around to it.


----------



## pe2dave (23 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Yes, thanks - I'd seen this. There are lots of 'tube videos regarding the same sort of problem, but none have sorted the problem yet.
> The bulb laddo features on this particular vid - assuming the Yank version of the car uses the same unit, just on the "wrong" side of the car! - is the immobilizer... and mine works fine.
> Even if things were sided/reversed, that bulb is for cruise control/fog lights - mine has neither.


See where he's tracing the tracks on the PCB, pos and neg? If you can access, you could check continuity end to end (plug to last bulb, ensure there's no break in the track on either one?)


----------



## Cozzer (23 Aug 2022)

Anybody tell me what the letters/numbers represent, please?


----------



## Housey210 (23 Aug 2022)

could be a ref to where found in manufacturers workshop book for car, wiring loom ref, plug ref etc. still not working then? Honda may have a diagnostic service. Most are compreshensive and pinpoint the issue, the last I saw indicated the motor in the heater unit of a vwt6 within seconds. Costly though.


----------



## Cozzer (23 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> could be a ref to where found in manufacturers workshop book for car, wiring loom ref, plug ref etc. still not working then? Honda may have a diagnostic service. Most are compreshensive and pinpoint the issue, the last I saw indicated the motor in the heater unit of a vwt6 within seconds.* Costly though.*


And that's what I'm trying to avoid.... I've got a leccy bill to worry about!

I'm trying to find a few hours in a row to try the suggestions mentioned. I'd just removed all the dash earlier when a neighbour wandered past with her dog, who's "been very poorly lately and cost nearly two thousand pounds to get right".
I'm sitting there, sun straight in my eyes, driver door wedged open with my right foot, a test lamp in my lap along with the instrument panel, and various other bits of panelling lying around. Frankly, I don't care about her dog, love them though I do.
Train of thought gone. Shot.
Go away, and take your bloody dog with you.
"Oh! Has something dropped off?" she asks. "I know nothing about cars...."
"Join the club", says I.


----------



## Housey210 (23 Aug 2022)

When is the mot due? Non working dash bulbs just may fall under that,


----------



## Cozzer (23 Aug 2022)

Housey210 said:


> When is the mot due? Non working dash bulbs just may fall under that,



No doubt.
Thankfully, 5 months yet.
Mind you, the way I'm going.....!


----------



## Gerry (23 Aug 2022)

Does any of the other interior lights work when the sidelights are on? Glove box, radio, ignition key illumination etc.

Gerry


----------



## Spectric (23 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Anybody tell me what the letters/numbers represent, please?






Don't worry about them, it tells you where it comes from and that is the Red/Black comes from the tail light relay. You won't fix the problem unless you approach it logically and work through the system so as you can narrow the fault down. If you have power on B7 then the tail light relay is functioning so you can discard it as being a problem otherwise you work back towards the battery and the control. Your dash lights are Red/Black but the tail lights and side lights etc are all Red / Yellow but still supplied from the tail light relay, so if you turn the side lights on and the side lights come on then this tells you that tail light relay is working and that B7 on the cluster connector should be live, check it to verify. If it is dead then you have a wiring issue other wise the power is reaching the cluster so check it is getting to the bulb, this can narrow the fault down so that you find the exact point. That wire to the MUX unit is live until the side light switch is operated at which point it falls close to zero to signal that the side lights are on to the unit.


----------



## woodwind (24 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> This is the actual cluster and the five bulbs, Red/Black on B7 is from the tail light relay, the actual function is provided by a mosfet to ground. The brightness control works via the gauge assembly cpu to switch this mosfet. On mine when it reaches max or min brightness levels it beeps.
> 
> 
> View attachment 141943


Rather ominously, the brightness control is effected via the cpu.


----------



## Spectric (24 Aug 2022)

@Cozzer you say you have no dash dimmer, are you sure? On mine it is the trip button next to the fuel/ temp gauge, push and hold for trip, push changes from total milage to trip and rotate gives dash dimming.


----------



## Cozzer (24 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> @Cozzer you say you have no dash dimmer, are you sure? On mine it is the trip button next to the fuel/ temp gauge, push and hold for trip, push changes from total milage to trip and rotate gives dash dimming.



Positive.
Gives overall mileage, then choice of two separate journey distances.
Different to your posh 2006 beast!
Incidentally, your post #17 - showing the blue/green plug pin-outs - mine are different. Methinks 40 pin.
Just off out to buy a new test lamp - current (!) one boasts a screwdriver tip, not a spike.


----------



## Spectric (24 Aug 2022)

The mark 2 CRV's upto 2006 were the better models, 2007 to 2016 were not as good and now you can have a 1.5 turbo which will not do 200,000 before recycling itself.

As for your dash lights at least they are just simple supply and ground, no electronic dimmer or bar graph display to complicate things.

Now because it is more basic, trace the wires from the bulb holders to the connector and then check the mating pins for live and continuity to ground, Red/Black should not change and grounds are Black. You should be able to follow the circuit through all five bulbs.


----------



## Cozzer (24 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> The mark 2 CRV's upto 2006 were the better models, 2007 to 2016 were not as good and now you can have a 1.5 turbo which will not do 200,000 before recycling itself.
> 
> As for your dash lights at least they are just simple supply and ground, no electronic dimmer or bar graph display to complicate things.
> 
> Now because it is more basic, trace the wires from the bulb holders to the connector and then check the mating pins for live and continuity to ground, Red/Black should not change and grounds are Black. You should be able to follow the circuit through all five bulbs.



Tell you what.....I'm getting a dab hand at getting the panels and steering wheel cowl off!


----------



## Cozzer (25 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> @Cozzer you say you have no dash dimmer, are you sure? On mine it is the trip button next to the fuel/ temp gauge, push and hold for trip, push changes from total milage to trip and rotate gives dash dimming.



,


about 50 seconds in..... gives a good view of my dash design.
Single push button, next to fuel on right.
(The only difference is laddo's steering wheel centre is red, whereas mine's black. Wonder why?)
Quite refreshing to find a right-hand-drive, same year, non-automatic, non-Yank video!
I found this gent a few weeks ago, as he had the same problem as me - the rear door actuator had failed, closed. His video on how to replace/solve was spot on, bless 'im!

I just wish that my lightbulb change had gone as smooth as his!


----------



## Cozzer (25 Aug 2022)

Gerry said:


> Does any of the other interior lights work when the sidelights are on? Glove box, radio, ignition key illumination etc.
> 
> Gerry



Don't think there is one in the glove box, Gerry! It's not that up-market!


----------



## Cozzer (25 Aug 2022)

Re my "40-pin" connector.
Absolute rubbish! Ignore me! It's actually like this -






Didn't have any joy with my new (ahem!) circuit tester thingy...and got disturbed again, having to replace everything to drive my beloved to her doc's appointment.
Back now, but losing heart and will to live!


----------



## Spectric (25 Aug 2022)

Have you traced the wires(tracks) from the bulb holders to the connector, once you establish these connections you can just apply 12 volts with the dash on the bench and see if they light up. Electrical trouble shooting is just a process of systematic eliminationuntil the fault is pin pointed.


----------



## Cozzer (25 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> Have you traced the wires(tracks) from the bulb holders to the connector, once you establish these connections you can just apply 12 volts with the dash on the bench and see if they light up. Electrical trouble shooting is just a process of systematic eliminationuntil the fault is pin pointed.



OK... a bit of progress.
Cluster on kitchen table.
The 4 dials in question have had the bulbs and holders removed, revealing the "top" and "bottom" solder points.
Multimeter at the ready, one lead touching the "top" and then seeing which pin it connects to. Then repeat process, moving the lead to the other side of the bulb holder socket, and again noting which pin shows continuity.
Pins B6, B15 and B16 are the three regulars across all 4 dials....

Not sure where to go now!


----------



## pe2dave (26 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> OK... a bit of progress.
> Cluster on kitchen table.
> The 4 dials in question have had the bulbs and holders removed, revealing the "top" and "bottom" solder points.
> Multimeter at the ready, one lead touching the "top" and then seeing which pin it connects to. Then repeat process, moving the lead to the other side of the bulb holder socket, and again noting which pin shows continuity.
> ...


If, from the cct diagram earlier, you know the + and - feeds, you should be able to trace (continuity on the bench, or 12v in the car) from feed to return to and from each bulb? I think you're nearly there, just apply that logic? Check to the 'solder blob' on the lamp holder, not just the track.


----------



## John Brown (26 Aug 2022)

Just a thought, but if all else fails, have you considered trying to find the part at a breaker's yard, or auto dismantlers as they seem to be called these days?


----------



## Spectric (26 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Pins B6, B15 and B16 are the three regulars across all 4 dials....


What color are these wires, hopefully one is Red/Black and the others both black.


----------



## Gerry (26 Aug 2022)

Can you see the copper tracks on the back of the gauge cluster? If so could you post a decent photo of it so we can visually trace the circuit. After that we should be able to power the lights at the connection block with a 12v battery then if they light up then test the other side of the connector for 12v.

Gerry


----------



## Dibs-h (26 Aug 2022)

John Brown said:


> Just a thought, but if all else fails, have you considered trying to find the part at a breaker's yard, or auto dismantlers as they seem to be called these days?


Swapping the cluster may mean a trip to the dealers to code it to the car, that's if they will do it (being a used part). And if the immobilizer is in the cluster - the car won't start until the cluster is paired to the ecu.


----------



## Spectric (26 Aug 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> Swapping the cluster may mean a trip to the dealers to code it to the car, that's if they will do it (being a used part). And if the immobilizer is in the cluster - the car won't start until the cluster is paired to the ecu.


To old, this was when vehicle electronic's had not become all encompassing. The cluster is pretty basic, old school with multiple wires and not a CAN bus which would then be a nightmare and expensive to resolve. I purchased a 2006 mark 2 CRV even though I could have got a much newer one for the same price because it uses basic wiring and not multiple modules that control everything. Old school is you operate a switch and an item receives power and works, newer technology is you operate a switch then some module decides if it is ok for that item to receive power and then may turn it on for you. All ok until a module gets a blip in the software like my last Peugeot where the body interface module decided to do it's own thing, you would even lose hazzard lights and brake lights as well as indicators which is a real safety concern, then you could not turn the engine off or operate the electric windows. This was a new module, download the vehicle configuration file then recode the keys all an expense, well no more with my Honda


----------



## John Brown (26 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> To old, this was when vehicle electronic's had not become all encompassing. The cluster is pretty basic, old school with multiple wires and not a CAN bus which would then be a nightmare and expensive to resolve. I purchased a 2006 mark 2 CRV even though I could have got a much newer one for the same price because it uses basic wiring and not multiple modules that control everything. Old school is you operate a switch and an item receives power and works, newer technology is you operate a switch then some module decides if it is ok for that item to receive power and then may turn it on for you. All ok until a module gets a blip in the software like my last Peugeot where the body interface module decided to do it's own thing, you would even lose hazzard lights and brake lights as well as indicators which is a real safety concern, then you could not turn the engine off or operate the electric windows. This was a new module, download the vehicle configuration file then recode the keys all an expense, well no more with my Honda


That was my thought. Could be wrong, though. My 2003 Merc had a lot of electronics.


----------



## Spectric (26 Aug 2022)

So much of this added complication really does not benefit the customer, all they want is for the car to do what they ask of it and reliably. A lot of this has been to reduce the weight of copper used but over complexity can be detrimental to the economic repair of a vehicle, you only have to look in a local recycling centre and a lot of vehicles look very roadworthy but were deemed beyond economic repair. So what is more enviromentally freindly, a very clean car that last only ten years or one that is slightly more dirty but last for twenty years?


----------



## Cozzer (26 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> What color are these wires, hopefully one is Red/Black and the others both black.



Nope.
B15 is red/black.
B16 is red.
B6 is.....difficult to say. "Pale"*** (!) with a hint of a blue band around it, as opposed to a stripe.
Unfortunately I've just had to put everything back, as I need to be going out soon....

Right...layman's description of last night coming up, in my best Noddy fashion!

To recap present situation, the only things that _aren't_ working are the 4 dial lights, and the audible alarm if I happen to exit the car, forgetting to turn the lights off.
That's it.
It seems everything else works. All the other "warning" lights on the dash - for example the seatbelt reminder, full beam when on, indicators, handbrake et al - work. Ironically the odometer rectangle now lights... I say ironically as it was one of the 2 failed bulbs which started this whole thing off.
All exterior lights are working fine. The radio, the 12v output (aka cig lighter!) fine. The interior light comes on with the door open.

Last night I removed all the bulb holders, which leaves a hole (!) with a strip of solder, top and bottom. When you insert the bulb holder, you twist clockwise in order for the holder's copper terminals (and therefore the bulb) to connect with the strips of solder.
With the multimeter set for continuity, I checked each port, top and bottom solder, while probing the cluster's blue male socket, making a note of which pin "connected".

Each dial gave the same results - with one multimeter probe held against the "top" solder, I ran the other probe along the socket pins... B6, B15 and B16 responded.
I then switched to checking the "bottom" solder, and did the same socket pin check....same again, B6, B15, B16.

I'm not sure where all this actually gets me, but when I tell that I owned the car for 5 years before I found the secret picnic table, perhaps you'll not be surprised!

** EDIT.
The wiring colours above.... forget the "blue band" reference for B6. 
In daylight, I think the blue is actually grey, but I suspect it's sort-of glue residue from the loom wrapping. It's on some other wires as well.
Comparing B6 to others, it's not white...nor is it yellow, as I can see others that claim those colours, so God knows what it is!
Incidentally, B7 right next door, is indeed black.... *


----------



## Dibs-h (26 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> To old, this was when vehicle electronic's had not become all encompassing. The cluster is pretty basic, old school with multiple wires and not a CAN bus which would then be a nightmare and expensive to resolve. I purchased a 2006 mark 2 CRV even though I could have got a much newer one for the same price because it uses basic wiring and not multiple modules that control everything. Old school is you operate a switch and an item receives power and works, newer technology is you operate a switch then some module decides if it is ok for that item to receive power and then may turn it on for you. All ok until a module gets a blip in the software like my last Peugeot where the body interface module decided to do it's own thing, you would even lose hazzard lights and brake lights as well as indicators which is a real safety concern, then you could not turn the engine off or operate the electric windows. This was a new module, download the vehicle configuration file then recode the keys all an expense, well no more with my Honda


I don't know much about Hondas or Japanese cars to be fair. The wife's old 2003 Fabia and all VAG cars from 2000 (at least) onwards, the immobilser was\is in the cluster and swapping means\meant recoding it & a visit to the dealer. The Fabia had nothing in the way of CanBus tho.

Much later VAG cars, even the "basic" ones started going CanBus.


----------



## Spectric (26 Aug 2022)

You must be very close to finding the answer, the Red/Black is the supply from the tail light relay and if you get 12 volts between this and ground then you have narrowed the problem right down. When testing that wire for live use a decent known ground such as the aux power socket.

"Each dial gave the same results - with one multimeter probe held against the "top" solder, I ran the other probe along the socket pins... B6, B15 and B16 responded."

Are you saying that the top is connected to all three, B6 B15and B16? If so then where does the bottom bulb pad connect to?


----------



## Cozzer (26 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> You must be very close to finding the answer, the Red/Black is the supply from the tail light relay and if you get 12 volts between this and ground then you have narrowed the problem right down. When testing that wire for live use a decent known ground such as the aux power socket.
> 
> "Each dial gave the same results - with one multimeter probe held against the "top" solder, I ran the other probe along the socket pins... B6, B15 and B16 responded."
> 
> Are you saying that the top is connected to all three, B6 B15and B16? If so then where does the bottom bulb pad connect to?



Ah.
Yes, I could've tried to explain better - sorry.
I checked all 10 bulb sites, but paid particular attention to the 4 dial areas.
For example, the socket nearest the fuel gauge : when the top pad was probed, pins B6 and B15 "beeped". When the bottom pad was probed, pins B6, B15 and B16 beeped.

The bulb covering the area around the tacho gave B6, B15 and B16 from the top pad, with the same result from the bottom pad : B6, 15 and 16 again.

The speedo gave top B6 and B15, same from the bottom pad.

The final dial gave top B6, 15 and 16. The bottom gave the same three.


----------



## Spectric (26 Aug 2022)

That sounds wrong, both sides of a bulb cannot be connected to the same pins because there is no circuit. You must be either testing incorrectly and possibly measuring via another load which is connected across live and ground so when you measure an empy bulb location it is effectively bridged by this other load giving you an incorrect result. Try putting 12 volts into the Red/Black and grounding the black but either use a current limited power supply or a 500mA fuse.


----------



## Cozzer (26 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> That sounds wrong, both sides of a bulb cannot be connected to the same pins because there is no circuit. You must be either testing incorrectly and possibly measuring via another load which is connected across live and ground so when you measure an empy bulb location it is effectively bridged by this other load giving you an incorrect result. Try putting 12 volts into the Red/Black and grounding the black but either use a current limited power supply or a 500mA fuse.



That's curious. I had the multimeter set for continuity, and measured them all the same way.
For example, the left indicator bulb gave B15 top, B11 bottom, but the right one gave B6, B15 and B16 at the top, but B12 at the bottom.
I'll try it again tomorrow in daylight.... This must be exasperating for you, so my thanks to you again. I've a feeling that the bank holiday will probably finish us both off, and I'll be searching for an auto electrician!


----------



## Gerry (27 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> That's curious. I had the multimeter set for continuity, and measured them all the same way.
> For example, the left indicator bulb gave B15 top, B11 bottom, but the right one gave B6, B15 and B16 at the top, but B12 at the bottom.
> I'll try it again tomorrow in daylight.... This must be exasperating for you, so my thanks to you again. I've a feeling that the bank holiday will probably finish us both off, and I'll be searching for an auto electrician!


Did you take all of the bulbs out?

Gerry


----------



## Suffolk Brian (27 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> So much of this added complication really does not benefit the customer, all they want is for the car to do what they ask of it and reliably. A lot of this has been to reduce the weight of copper used but over complexity can be detrimental to the economic repair of a vehicle, you only have to look in a local recycling centre and a lot of vehicles look very roadworthy but were deemed beyond economic repair. So what is more enviromentally freindly, a very clean car that last only ten years or one that is slightly more dirty but last for twenty years?



Weight of copper? Maybe but I don’t think so. For many years the thought has been this is simply to keep all the main dealers in highly profitable business, and shut down the independent who cannot afford all the expensive equipment or the licenses needed to run the right software.
the reason Land Rover kept the 300 tdi engine range going so long was the next generation engines were covered in electronics, and the African nations said if we cannot fix it with spanners in the middle of the jungle (with no electricity) then we ain’t going to buy it.
sorry, but this is drifting off post………..


----------



## Spectric (27 Aug 2022)

Suffolk Brian said:


> Weight of copper? Maybe but I don’t think so.


If you go back to the days when there was a british car industry the wiring was done in heavier gauge wire with a thicker PVC insulation, now it is what is termed thin walled hard core and they use a lot of 0.35mm. Even the heavy starter motor cables are now a smaller CSA because of the epicyclic gearbox used in the starter motor. You now can replace a bundle of wires with just a two wire CAN bus and the savings all add up. Weight is an important factor in that it helps the OEM get better MPG figures and performance whilst reducing their cost.


----------



## Spectric (27 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> This must be exasperating for you, so my thanks to you again. I've a feeling that the bank holiday will probably finish us both off, and I'll be searching for an auto electrician!


For me it is a problem that could be easily fixed if I were hands on, it is always difficult to help someone from a distance because you dont see the whole picture and having worked on electrical systems from buses / coaches to cars and HGV you can visualise the problem and fault finding process but conveying this to someone is the difficult part. Thinking about what you said regarding removing four bulbs, there are five bulbs which need to be removed.

This is what you have, five bulbs in parallel.










If you remove four and leave one in then when you measure from the top or bottom then you can still have a path to the other side via that bulb. With all removed you should then get just the two sides of the circuit with all loads open circuit..


----------



## Cozzer (27 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> For me it is a problem that could be easily fixed if I were hands on, it is always difficult to help someone from a distance because you dont see the whole picture and having worked on electrical systems from buses / coaches to cars and HGV you can visualise the problem and fault finding process but conveying this to someone is the difficult part. Thinking about what you said regarding removing four bulbs, there are five bulbs which need to be removed.
> 
> This is what you have, five bulbs in parallel.
> 
> ...



Ah.
Gotcha. 
That's this evening's entertainment, then!


----------



## Cozzer (27 Aug 2022)

Looks as if I'm going to have to open the unit up - all the bulbs are out, and the meter is set to continuity, but the two sockets I've tried so far are giving exactly the same results as last time.
Confess I'm a bit loathe to open it to expose the board- there are 12 different clips holding front to back - and it hasn't been opened since being closed on 5 April '04!
I'm going to borrow my neighbour's smarty-pants phone to take a few shots - I'll upload later.


----------



## Cozzer (27 Aug 2022)

In the meantime, a couple of photo's of the unit itself, and a large one of a socket, showing what I described as a "top" and "bottom" solder strip. The red circles on the unit show the sockets which remain empty - the group of smaller sockets relates to automatic transmission, and the single socket is the cruise indicator....


----------



## Spectric (27 Aug 2022)

This gives some details to your picture, refering to my post in 70 with all bulbs out and no load paths between the positive supply and ground then all one side of the bulbs should be connected and terminate on one connector pin and all the other side should do the same to another connector pin.

Now on further thinking don't assume that all one side of the bulbs are the same, in other words the positive supply might be to the top of one but the bottom of another, it is just how PCB's can end up to avoid tracks crossing which they cannot. 

From this picture 


it shows the two pads closest to the hole may be connected by a track, my vision of this type of bulb is a plastic holder with two copper wings that make contact to the track which is not depicted by the image, a picture of your bulb holder may help and are those two pads connected or are they two tracks running parallel out of sight?


----------



## Cozzer (28 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> View attachment 142460
> 
> View attachment 142461
> 
> ...


Not the easiest thing to photograph, but your description fits very well!
As regards the pads, unsure as yet. Chickened out taking it to pieces tonight - might do tomorrow!


----------



## pe2dave (28 Aug 2022)

From the photo of the bottom of the bulb and the tracks, it appears as if you've about 120 degrees to get the alignment right, hence power to the bulb? I.e. if you are really careful you could short circuit the pcb with the bulb!
If this logic is right, suggest install one at a time, rotate till it lights, then move on to the next one etc.


----------



## Cozzer (28 Aug 2022)

pe2dave said:


> From the photo of the bottom of the bulb and the tracks, it appears as if you've about 120 degrees to get the alignment right, hence power to the bulb? I.e. if you are really careful you could short circuit the pcb with the bulb!
> If this logic is right, suggest install one at a time, rotate till it lights, then move on to the next one etc.



Good morning to all....
I was going to write "Christ! That'd take hours!", but seeing I've been at it for a week already....!
Mr.Spectric's #74 post is interesting - the bulbs might not be polarised, but the holders might be....

Unfortunately I'm just having to go out for a while, so am just about to put the car back together (again), so more later.....


----------



## pe2dave (28 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Good morning to all....
> I was going to write "Christ! That'd take hours!",


I don't think so. You can see the orientation of the solder blobs, just line up the bulb with those? Once you've done one, the rest should follow?
If misaligned.... Are the bulb 'contacts' long enough to bridge the gap in the solder? Wondering what that would do, blow a fuse?
(Not a very nice design IMHO)


----------



## Cozzer (28 Aug 2022)

pe2dave said:


> I don't think so. You can see the orientation of the solder blobs, just line up the bulb with those? Once you've done one, the rest should follow?
> If misaligned.... Are the bulb 'contacts' long enough to bridge the gap in the solder? Wondering what that would do, blow a fuse?
> (Not a very nice design IMHO)



I just wish I could follow your idea _out_ of the car! 
The thought of wrestling with the 2 clip-in connectors umpteen times while adjusting the holder x degrees at a time.... well, it's not the job for _inside_ the car on a hot day!
Not sure whether I mentioned this earlier, but I checked every bulb was actually working even before getting the unit out. As someone mentioned above, these things are similar to push-in Xmas lights - just 2 legs, folded up against the body base of the bulb. I managed to ease the legs out a bit with a penknife blade, and then dug out a tiny A27 battery - 1" long but 12v! - to test each one.


----------



## pe2dave (28 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> I just wish I could follow your idea _out_ of the car!
> The thought of wrestling with the 2 clip-in connectors umpteen times while adjusting the holder x degrees at a time.... well, it's not the job for _inside_ the car on a hot day!
> Not sure whether I mentioned this earlier, but I checked every bulb was actually working even before getting the unit out. As someone mentioned above, these things are similar to push-in Xmas lights - just 2 legs, folded up against the body base of the bulb. I managed to ease the legs out a bit with a penknife blade, and then dug out a tiny A27 battery - 1" long but 12v! - to test each one.


Understood. I'm not checking if the bulbs are good / duff, my thought is that (like Xmas tree lights) unless the bulb connectors line up with the socket connectors, they will not light?
*if* you can see the orientation of the socket (power to the bulb), just turn the bulb to match that orientation? 
I guess you're working in the car, with the panel dangling on it's harness... agree, not fun.


----------



## Spectric (28 Aug 2022)

Those bulbs were very common on a lot of vehicles, you just insert and rotate until you feel it lock, that is what those rectangular cutouts are for in the PCB, the bulb holder should have a corresponding raised section that sits in these cutouts and lets you know that bulb holder is correctly located.


----------



## Cozzer (28 Aug 2022)

pe2dave said:


> Understood. I'm not checking if the bulbs are good / duff, my thought is that (like Xmas tree lights) unless the bulb connectors line up with the socket connectors, they will not light?
> *if* you can see the orientation of the socket (power to the bulb), just turn the bulb to match that orientation?
> I guess you're working in the car, with the panel dangling on it's harness... agree, not fun.


Power to the bulb?!
What happened to "Power to the people!"?
(Casts mind back to cr4ppy 70's TV comedy)

Sadly, the harness doesn't even allow a dangle! It can come out of its orifice by about 3", and that's yer lot as they say! Not to mention that it's facing you, and there isn't enough play to get your hand around the back to juggle things.
No...I'm afraid it would be a case of insert bulb holder, clip both connectors, push back into position, swear, pull forward, unclip, adjust bulb holder, clip connectors, push back, swear, pull forward.......you get the picture!


----------



## pe2dave (28 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Sadly, the harness doesn't even allow a dangle! It can come out of its orifice by about 3", and that's yer lot as they say! Not to mention that it's facing you, and there isn't enough play to get your hand around the back to juggle things.
> No...I'm afraid it would be a case of insert bulb holder, clip both connectors, push back into position, swear, pull forward, unclip, adjust bulb holder, clip connectors, push back, swear, pull forward.......you get the picture!


No, I'm with you, that's hard work.
Option. One of your broken bulbs? Break off the glass, so you can make contact with the leads?
With the panel on the bench, use continuity checks to work out the correct angle ( of ...) 
then follow that with a real bulb. 
(I'm guessing that @Spectrics suggestion hasn't worked?)


----------



## Spectric (28 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Sadly, the harness doesn't even allow a dangle! It can come out of its orifice by about 3", and that's yer lot as they say! Not to mention that it's facing you, and there isn't enough play to get your hand around the back to juggle things.


That is a real PITA, once upon a time the wiring was longer but the speedo cable prevented you getting the cluster out and now there is no speedo cable they make the wiring shorter to ensure you still cannot get it out to far.


----------



## Cozzer (28 Aug 2022)

Pita.
Spot on!


----------



## Cozzer (28 Aug 2022)

Right, gentlemen....
I have spent most of the afternoon playing around with these ******* lights.
If I wasn't mad before, I'm probably almost there now!

Various thoughts, possibly worth mentioning, but perhaps not....

The audible alarm, if you've accidently left the lights on and have opened the driver's door. I don't recall any mention of it being a "clue"? I've tried it again this afternoon, with both side lights and headlights left on - nothing.

Spectric - you mention 5 dials. You're including the odometer rectangle as being the 5th, I assume.
That currently works. It is an oddball, I suppose, because it lights as soon as the engine fires - in other words, it's not dependent on the car lights being switched on. Whether that's important in this case, I don't know. Just thought I'd mention it.

One of the bulbs is identified as "LCD back light" on the diagrams. Yes, it's located in the middle of the unit, but it's a big area to illuminate with just a 1.4w bulb? Does it mean something else? Which leads me to something else....
The location of each dial bulb. They're all "off centre". 
The tacho one, for example, is behind about 50.
The speedo is behind about 80.
The fuel and temp gauge bulbs are way off to the side.
Wouldn't you have thought they'd be more "in the middle" of the dial? Almost hidden behind the needle centre? In fact, _are_ there LEDs in the centre of each dial, on the PCB? If so, they're not lit either!

Last query - could this be anything to do with one of the relays, either under bonnet or dash? I haven't checked any of 'em.....yet!

Hope I haven't b******d your Sunday up!
My thanks again...


----------



## Spectric (28 Aug 2022)

Cozzer said:


> Last query - could this be anything to do with one of the relays, either under bonnet or dash? I haven't checked any of 'em.....yet!


This is where logical fault finding comes in, if you have working sidelights then the tail light relay is working and power is being sent to the cluster. The drawing shows five 1.4 Watt gauge lights on the rear diagram of the cluster and the wiring diagram also states gauge lights ( 1.4W x 5). 



Cozzer said:


> One of the bulbs is identified as "LCD back light" on the diagrams.



The reference to the LCD back light might be causing confusion, it is a 1.4 Watt bulb that backlights the LCD display in the speedo which shows milage and hopefully is working and not a problem.


----------



## Cozzer (31 Aug 2022)

Well, gents, I've given up.
I don't get it. It's obviously beyond me!
Going to give my friendly local mechanic a ring tomorrow...on his own admission he's not the world's best - "It's beyond my pay grade" - auto electric boy, but apparently is in cahoots with a good bloke in the next town. I'll try and get it booked in next week sometime.
It'll be interesting to find out what the problem is, and hopefully _was - _I'll let you know!

In the meantime, grateful thanks for your thoughts/guidance/time/advice.
Kudos to you.


----------



## Cozzer (2 Sep 2022)

Booked in for a quick shuftie on Monday morning, chaps....


----------



## Spectric (2 Sep 2022)

It will be something obvious, you will think how did I miss that !


----------



## Cozzer (2 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> It will be something obvious, you will think how did I miss that !



Oh, that's OK.
I'll just blame you!


----------



## okeydokey (2 Sep 2022)

I hope its so simple that it takes a short while and a new fuse so costs little - don't worry about "how you missed it etc"


----------



## Cozzer (5 Sep 2022)

The continuing ......zzzzzZZZZZzzzzzz......story...

Got the car back.
Laddo was briefed what the problem was, and what had already been done. 
I even removed the panels for him - I've done it so many times now I could do it in my sleep - and left it with him.
Lunchtime, got a call from him.
He's established that power is getting to the cluster terminal, but no matter what he did from there, he couldn't solve the problem....ergo, the problem is inside the "pod".
Yes, he could contact his auto-electrician pal in the next town, but I'm looking at £50+ to "verify the same conclusion I've come to..."
It also transpires that his pal doesn't repair circuitry, but sends the unit away somewhere else.... and had I considered buying a replacement unit off eBay?


----------



## Spectric (5 Sep 2022)

That greatly simplifies your problem and has narrowed it right down to where the fault lies. He says the power is getting to the cluster, is it getting to the bulbs? My next line of approach would be to run a temporary ground from a known point. With just a few bulbs in place, at a missing bulb socket find the pad that is not live, this will be your ground and then hold the temporary ground on this point. If they light up then you have a broken earth and you could then do a repair by runing a new wire and bypassing the printed track.


----------



## stuart little (6 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> That greatly simplifies your problem and has narrowed it right down to where the fault lies. He says the power is getting to the cluster, is it getting to the bulbs? My next line of approach would be to run a temporary ground from a known point. With just a few bulbs in place, at a missing bulb socket find the pad that is not live, this will be your ground and then hold the temporary ground on this point. If they light up then you have a broken earth and you could then do a repair by runing a new wire and bypassing the printed track.


From my experience those 'floppy' circuit boards cause no end of trouble. Peugeot rear light clusters used to suffer problems caused by corrosion of the steel connector strips & copper? contacts of the connector blocks leadig to 'shorts'. I''ve drilled several to attach a new ground cable. I've been retired 14yrs ,so I guess things are 'different' nowadays - prob'ly for the worse!


----------



## Spectric (6 Sep 2022)

stuart little said:


> so I guess things are 'different' nowadays - prob'ly for the worse!


They are much worse, when it was just a connection from A to B and a switch then fault finding and repair was easily done but once you put a microcontroller into the equation with a communication bus then it takes it to another level. The wiring might be sound but a glitch in the software and the fault becomes invisible and now you need diagnostic tools to track it down. As an example a Peuguot I had would do things without any input, ie wipers come on, headlamps would not turn off and even the engine would keep running with the key removed and all because a module had an issue. Not a simple case of replace the module, the replacement module needed to have the vehicles original configuration file downloaded and the keys reprogrammed with several issues along the way, great for the main dealers to make money but not good for the customer and for something that is really just there because they can.


----------



## Terry - Somerset (6 Sep 2022)

In the good old days cars were hard wired. Fault finding needed no more than a bulb or a simple meter to test continuity. With a little effort almost anyone, including me, could fix faults.

In the good old days few cars had aircon, electrical seats, sat-nav, electric windows, integrated media, electronic fuel injection, central locking, multi speed wipers and fans etc etc etc. Whether all these are strictly necessary to get a ton of metal and contents from A to B is debatable. 

Partly due to all this complexity we now have cars which are much safer, more economical, less polluting, more comfortable and faster than their automotive ancestors from the 1960s and 70s.

Downside - when things go wrong they can be very difficult to remedy. But typically things go wrong infrequently - in the last 15 years I have had 3 cars (1 new, 2 s/h) and covered ~250k miles during which I have had one problem related to fuel injectors (cost ~£100 to fix).

My automotive ancestors may have needed 2 engines, 5 decokes, 3 new clutches, etc etc.

On balance I will happily live with the risk of a complex electrical failure than go back in time 4 decades. This is of course no comfort to the OP!


----------



## Spectric (6 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> In the good old days few cars had aircon, electrical seats, sat-nav, electric windows, integrated media, electronic fuel injection, central locking, multi speed wipers and fans etc etc etc. Whether all these are strictly necessary to get a ton of metal and contents from A to B is debatable.



Not entirely



Terry - Somerset said:


> Partly due to all this complexity we now have cars which are much safer,



This is more like a shift in the balance of safety, yes people have more chance of surviving crashes because of airbags and crumple zones but are also more likely to have a crash through distraction caused by all those added features involving touch screens and like. When I was last recovered by the RAC the guy said that by far the biggest reason for vehicle recovery are electrical issues that cannot be readily repaired at the roadside, at times it can feel like an epidemic of failures. 

We perceive cars as being less polluting, yes many are during there lifetime but not if you consider the whole product lifecycle because cars are becoming more like white goods and wheras 200,000 was common for a diesel that is fast becoming a thing of the past, my local garage has had cars with three cylinder engines that have totally failed at 70,000 so they may be clean in use but have consumed a lot of resources for a shorter lifespan.


----------



## Cozzer (6 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> That greatly simplifies your problem and has narrowed it right down to where the fault lies. He says the power is getting to the cluster, is it getting to the bulbs? My next line of approach would be to run a temporary ground from a known point. With just a few bulbs in place, at a missing bulb socket find the pad that is not live, this will be your ground and then hold the temporary ground on this point. If they light up then you have a broken earth and you could then do a repair by runing a new wire and bypassing the printed track.



Ey up, Spectric...
Didn't spot your response until now - apologies. (Gardening duties)
Hmmm.... you have more confidence in my "abilities" than I have! Hence my opening post using the Noddy level!
The still below is a freezeframe taken off a Yank video - hence the definition - and is actually off laddo's automatic, but I guess it gives a good idea as to what's going on behind mine.
I'm not sure I'd know what I'd be looking for, frankly - a loose wire would be nice, but it looks as if those days are long gone! A duff solder joint I could cope with....
So, what to do?
There are 2/3 on a certain well-known auction site, but are they going to work?
Questions, questions!

Edit : would've been a good idea to attach the image!


----------



## Spectric (6 Sep 2022)

This shows what bulbs are what and if you take the back off yours then tracing the tracks will be simple, I assume you have ruled out the ground being at fault! You know power is getting to the cluster and if none of the gauge lights illuminate then it has to be at a point common to all the bulbs which has to be at the connector otherwise you would only have some not working..


----------



## Tom K (7 Sep 2022)

Find it hard to believe any Honda of this age doesn’t have some sort of dimmer on the gauges, especially as there are lots of questions all over the internet for the same problem. The solution mostly are a replacement or by passing the dimmer unit. As an aside if it is just a basic circuit it would only need a live and an earth and both would be common to all of the bulbs the earth will be common to most of the cluster so there is either a break in the track for your live or it runs through a dimmer. Have you looked on the CRV forums for solutions?


----------



## stuart little (7 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> In the good old days cars were hard wired. Fault finding needed no more than a bulb or a simple meter to test continuity. With a little effort almost anyone, including me, could fix faults.
> 
> In the good old days few cars had aircon, electrical seats, sat-nav, electric windows, integrated media, electronic fuel injection, central locking, multi speed wipers and fans etc etc etc. Whether all these are strictly necessary to get a ton of metal and contents from A to B is debatable.
> 
> ...


I remember seeing more than one Morris Minor with 'brake lights' on the front when the twin filament bulbs short out!


----------



## Tom K (7 Sep 2022)

stuart little said:


> I remember seeing more than one Morris Minor with 'brake lights' on the front when the twin filament bulbs short out!


Not just Moggy's its a common fault caused by putting a single filament side light bulb into stop/tail bulb holder.


----------



## Tom K (7 Sep 2022)

Try looking here? https://www.crvownersclub.com/threads/dash-lights-go-out-when-i-turn-headlight-on.135033/

And perhaps try this? pull cluster, unplug battery first, unplug blue and green connecters ,locate red wire on blue plug,( next to red/black wire) splice into -do not cut red wire, run a splice wire (keep it red so you know what it is) to a suitable ground, steering column bolt is a good ground , this is the negative illumination circuit . the multi shorts to ground when disrupted usually due to aftermarket accessories, so the lowdown is positive flows thru cluster and negative comes out of cluster ok ,but it will not flow thru the multiplex unit which controls brightness, once you "steal" the ground before the multiplex ,lights will activate thru headlamp stem switch ,because the bad multi controls brightness the lights will be non adjustable and will only light up all the way not hard to due requires only a phillips screwdriver, and the method you choose to run a new ground wire .thanks for reading, oh and good informative club glad I joined!! window guy 02 ex black central ct.


----------



## Spectric (7 Sep 2022)

Tom K said:


> Find it hard to believe any Honda of this age doesn’t have some sort of dimmer on the gauges,


Yes it is odd and all the wiring circuits I have for the Mk 2 show a dimmer but it does not look like a dimmer, it is a button that changes the display from total mileage to trip but you can also rotate left or right a few degrees which either steps the brightness up or down and you get a beep at min or max rather than the old style variable resistance which suggest it is controlled by the cluster micro.


----------



## Cozzer (8 Sep 2022)

Tom K said:


> Find it hard to believe any Honda of this age doesn’t have some sort of dimmer on the gauges, especially as there are lots of questions all over the internet for the same problem. The solution mostly are a replacement or by passing the dimmer unit. As an aside if it is just a basic circuit it would only need a live and an earth and both would be common to all of the bulbs the earth will be common to most of the cluster so there is either a break in the track for your live or it runs through a dimmer. Have you looked on the CRV forums for solutions?



As discussed very early in this post, there is no dimmer.
As you say, there are lots of _similar_ problems - mainly dealing with tail lights and dash light failure - but none exactly the same, except for a Yank job who claims to solve the problem by replacing the dead bulb nearest the blue connector. Suffice to say, this was tried to no avail.
Have checked CRV forums.


----------



## Cozzer (8 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Yes it is odd and all the wiring circuits I have for the Mk 2 show a dimmer but it does not look like a dimmer, it is a button that changes the display from total mileage to trip but you can also rotate left or right a few degrees which either steps the brightness up or down and you get a beep at min or max rather than the old style variable resistance which suggest it is controlled by the cluster micro.



Some models have 2 buttons, one to the left of the fuel gauge, one to the right of the temp gauge.
Mine has one, left of the fuel gauge.
Total mileage shown on first press (unless already showing, of course!)
Next press, Trip A distance.
Next press, Trip B distance.
Next press, Total Mileage again.
Twist left: it won't.
Twist right: it won't.
Press in and twist: it won't.

Even the manual states "Instrument Panel Brightness" (_for some types_)


----------



## okeydokey (8 Sep 2022)

I would see how much a used item on ebay costs, btw if its doesnt work send it back and get a refund.


----------



## Tom K (8 Sep 2022)

Well the fix I cut and pasted from the CRV forum was about a problem that relates to the same fault but also states changing the clock doesn’t help as the fault is in the multiplex unit whatever that is. Maybe I misread the Wiki page but it seemed to suggest that the vehicle has limited trim options so unless you have some sort of limited production model it would seem your switch could be damaged. You may be on the wrong track though if the light on buzzer failure coincided with the lamp failure it could be that at fault.


----------



## Spectric (8 Sep 2022)

Tom K said:


> but also states changing the clock doesn’t help as the fault is in the multiplex unit whatever that is.


If you look at this diagram I posted it shows this multiplex unit but as a CPU and is not applicable unless you have the dimming controller. I would assume that the box marked *2 is the alternative ground arrangement when the dimmer is not used, it bypasses the mosfet that is controlled by the CPU. This problem should not be causing the OP such a problem as without this dimmer it is just a case of a 12 volt supply and a ground, they have confirmed a supply to the cluster which means it is more than likely to be the grounding side which is via C on the diagram which is a black wire on pin B15.


----------



## Tom K (8 Sep 2022)

The answer on CRV forum says that red wire provides negative switching and the fix is splicing a wire into it and giving additional earth which will turn on gauge illumination but at the expense of adjustment? But you are the bright spark here what do you think?


----------



## Spectric (8 Sep 2022)

The tail light relay is low side switched by the combination switch on the colomb but it supplies a live feed to the cluster via a Red / Black wire which has been confirmed as live. The power to the side lights and such is Red / Yellow. So if live is getting to the cluster then all the OP needs to do is 1) confirm this live is getting from the cluster connector to one side of the bulbs and 2) that the other side is grounded.

The multiplex module performs these functions, 






So the reason people seem to jump on blaming this module is because there are wires from the tail light relay to the multiplex module but as far as I can determine they are only to operate the lights on reminder function, why not just a simple buzzer I here you ask.

If you want to get really confused then look at how Honda have wired the headlamps!!! Most vehicles will use a relay to reduce the current through the switchgear, but not Honda. They use a relay to provide power to turn the headlamps on via a 15 amp fuse but then use low side switching to change between the full and pass beams at full current through the switch gear.


----------



## Cozzer (8 Sep 2022)

okeydokey said:


> I would see how much a used item on ebay costs, btw if its doesnt work send it back and get a refund.



Mrs.Cozzer is voicing a similar suggestion.
An unusual event - me being able to spend money - but I suspect it's something to do with the fact that she doesn't drive and I do.
"Cozzer Taxi".
I think you get my drift....
She actually passed her test over 30 years ago (first time, after 20 lessons) but has literally never sat behind a wheel since.
Don't bother asking why.
I have, many times, and I'm yet to get any reply other than "I have my reasons".
Amusingly she updated her licence after an address change, because she uses it as ID when required.

That's one reason why all this is taking time - apart from my own ignorance in electrical matters, and the fact that it's the sole vehicle, whenever her ladyship wants driving somewhere, I have to put all panels etc. back!


----------



## Tom K (8 Sep 2022)

Yebbut, he says that the warning is not working


----------



## Cozzer (8 Sep 2022)

Tom K said:


> ....so unless you have some sort of limited production model....



It's a "CR-V I-VTEC SE Sport" according to the V5.

Rare?
Wouldn't think so.
I'd also take the word "Sport" with a large pinch of salt!


----------



## Tom K (8 Sep 2022)

No I didn’t think it would be anything rare or unusual, let’s hope the new unit sorts it!


----------



## Spectric (8 Sep 2022)

Ideally you would be better of going to a salvage yard and actually trying the new unit there, saves so much time and fuss because you can all to easily fix one problem but end up with another.


----------



## Tom K (9 Sep 2022)

okeydokey said:


> I would see how much a used item on ebay costs, btw if its doesnt work send it back and get a refund.


Please don’t do this nobody advertises goods for sale for them to be used as test beds for parts cannon mechanics. If you buy it it’s yours! Over a 45 year period while I worked in the motor trade I had thousands of parts delivered that had been tested and damaged or a used part put in the box, you have no idea how frustrating this is for an honest mechanic trying to get a vehicle back on the road for an honest decent customer on a tight deadline.


----------



## Cozzer (9 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Ideally you would be better of going to a salvage yard and actually trying the new unit there, saves so much time and fuss because you can all to easily fix one problem but end up with another.



Wife, or instrument panel?!


----------



## Spectric (9 Sep 2022)

I can say that you may be pulling your hair out trying to fix this but it is equally as frustrating for me because it is something that is so easily fixed but I can only advise from a distance.


----------



## Cozzer (14 Sep 2022)

Well gentlemen, you probably gathered that I gave in and ordered a second-hand job. It arrived today, got slapped in....and worked first time, I'm pleased to report!

Everything....except the audible "you've left your lights on!" alarm.
Can I live with that?
Not sure!


----------



## Homeless Squirrel (18 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Not entirely
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fraud Transits diesels or others that use same engine and set up going wide open till blow up reg or just die.
Someone i know has many in there fleet have a pile that engines blown up at 30k!


----------



## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

Now you just need to fix the old one, you know the fault is in the cluster so should be a straightforward job on the kitchen table.


----------



## Cozzer (29 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Now you just need to fix the old one, you know the fault is in the cluster so should be a straightforward job on the kitchen table.



You're right, Roy - and I did!
Removed the cluster back panel, and checked it. Spotted a trace had lifted, checked both ends for continuity - nope. Nothing.
I bought one of those repair kits - ostensibly to fix broken rear screen demisters - and "painted" over the trace. Dried overnight, and the trace was restored. (Marked in red, on the photo. Not actually my unit, just nicked off another site )
Banged it all back in the car, and hallelujah! Everything OK, even the audible "lights on" alarm!
The one blemish is that the trip button is locked on full mileage - it won't show A or B - but I think that's more a mechanical operation rather than electrical.






So what caused the original to fail? Perhaps the heat during the summer? Who knows....
So what to do with the replacement unit?!
eBay maybe!


----------

