# Camellia Oil on Ash?



## Andy Kev. (9 Sep 2016)

I had a look at some older threads on finishing ash and a common opinion was that you shouldn't use oils as they can make it go a horrible colour. Does this also apply to camellia oil which is very pale? I was thinking of finishing an ash piece with this oil and then using Dictum wax over that. Any thoughts?


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## woodpig (9 Sep 2016)

For Ash I use cellulose sanding sealer than apply a coat of Renaissance Micro-Crystalline Wax.


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2016)

Camellia oil doesn't dry/harden, so I'm not sure it's a good finish at all.

BugBear


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## custard (9 Sep 2016)

Ash will yellow over time anyway, markedly and within a year if it's under a south facing window. Plus the very open grain of Ash makes it a grime trap, over time those pores will fill up and turn darker so the grain pattern will become very graphic. If you like that look then you're golden, if you don't then that's a problem.

The current fashion tends towards paler timbers and matt finishes. Getting a non yellowing, UV resistant, hard wearing, matt finish, on pale timbers is the objective of many makers. There are some _partial_ steps in that direction, but they all involve compromises. There's a soap finish, but that's high maintenance and costly to apply. There are some sprayed finishes that show a bit of promise, but they're expensive in materials terms and the jury's out on how long they'll last, there are water based grain fillers like Aquacote, but that still brings quite a lot of gloss into the equation and it's quite soft.

From a practical point of view Woodpig's suggestion is as good as any and better than most. Personally I'd think about multiple coats of sanding sealer to try and fill the deepest of the grain pockets.

Good luck!


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## thetyreman (9 Sep 2016)

I use camelia oil for rust prevention on the metal parts of my tools, it's not supposed to be used as a finishing oil as far as I know, as bugbear said it won't dry.

Ideally you will want to fill the pores as the very first stage before the sanding sealer (post sanding)

If you use de-waxed shellac as a sealer it won't change the colour of ash, that is my favourite looking finish on light woods so far, especially with ash, it will only enhance it, especially after 3 or more layers.


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## Harbo (9 Sep 2016)

I cleaned some very old carved ebony elephants with Camellia oil and it did dry.







Rod


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## Andy Kev. (10 Sep 2016)

Thanks for the replies. I'll order some sanding sealer and give it a go.

I did a bit of wider digging and one source said that you can use camellia oil on wood but it won't harden off (as also said on here). So does that mean I could use the camellia to bring out the grain a bit and then seal it off with the sanding sealer prior to applying wax? Or would I be better going for thetyreman's dewaxed shellac treatment?


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## ED65 (11 Sep 2016)

Andy Kev.":147poj6z said:


> I had a look at some older threads on finishing ash and a common opinion was that you shouldn't use oils as they can make it go a horrible colour.


Individual mileage varies. The characteristic colour of varnish is now outmoded but if you have more traditional taste it's what it _should _look like, and the paler colour of current taste looks wan or washed out  



Andy Kev.":147poj6z said:


> So does that mean I could use the camellia to bring out the grain a bit and then seal it off with the sanding sealer prior to applying wax?


Personally I think there's no reason to use any non-drying oil on wood since there are other drying or semi-drying oils you can pick instead of linseed oil. A common alternative choice is walnut oil which gives the characteristic deeper tone of oiling without adding an appreciable amount of yellowness (and it won't yellow badly over time) and it will 'dry' over time.

But you're obviously not going to leave the wood greasy and since you're only planning on waxing afterwards I don't really think it makes much difference TBH. And it's dead easy to test out on a scrap or the underside of whatever you're working on to see how it works in practice.


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## Andy Kev. (12 Sep 2016)

ED65":1dtev2k5 said:


> Andy Kev.":1dtev2k5 said:
> 
> 
> > I had a look at some older threads on finishing ash and a common opinion was that you shouldn't use oils as they can make it go a horrible colour.
> ...


That's very interesting. I do understand that ash darkens with age (as also pointed out above) but in its "new" state it is a touch too pale for my taste. A very pale straw-ish tint is what I would be after.

I will give walnut oil a bash and follow that with the sanding sealer topped by wax. I'm open to suggestions because up to now I've only ever used Danish Oil but I think that that really would be a bit too dark for ash. Also in one of my rare flashes of genius, I set a aside an offcut specifically for the purpose of testing finishes once I had asked on here.


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## ED65 (12 Sep 2016)

I'd much prefer to use varnish over oiled wood so that there are no potential adhesion problems (you shouldn't have issues with this if you switch from lacquer to shellac BTW). 

I presume you're planning on waxing at the end to add shine? You'll get that, much more durably, with varnish. So that's what I'd suggest you test out first: oil the wood lightly using a 1:1 blend of walnut oil and white spirit, then thinly varnish on top. 

While you have some diluted varnish on hand you should do a test to one side with the varnish straight onto bare wood to compare wetting and colour. Might be surprising how little difference there is, on ash in particular 8)


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## custard (12 Sep 2016)

Here's the problem you'll have with Ash.

Thirty years ago I made some child size windsor chairs for a client, they had Elm seats and all the other parts were Ash. Recently she contacted me again and said she wanted some more, exactly the same, for grandchildren. How delightful! Especially as I stopped making windsor chairs soon after that and therefore still have stocks of Elm from the very same tree that I made the originals from!

I visited her to see the chairs and take the measurements from them. It was great seeing something I'd made so long ago, and I was very pleased at how well the chairs had withstood use, all the joints were still tight and they still sat level without rocking. But I was very disappointed in the finish.






In those days I used an oil and wax finish. And over the last thirty years the very open grain of Ash has become full of dirt and grime, consequently the chair just looks grubby and dirty. Some people will tell you that Ash only got that grubby look in the days when people had open coal fires in their homes, but this chair disproves that theory because it's been in a modern, centrally heated house. There's very little I can do about this chair now. Stripping the finish would be expensive and it would risk losing the crispness of the original turning.

I'm trying to persuade her to have the new chairs made in Elm and Yew, which will age beautifully with just an oil finish. But if the client insists on Ash then I'm going to learn from my mistakes and thoroughly grain fill before finishing.

Why don't you learn from my mistakes too?

Good luck!


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## Andy Kev. (13 Sep 2016)

I'm very happy to learn from your mistakes but I gained the impression that oil followed by sanding sealer and then wax would avoid the sort of problems you describe. I've obviously not quite understood something. I could dispense with the oil if the sanding sealer really brings the grain out.


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## ED65 (14 Sep 2016)

I suppose it should have been asked ages ago, what are you finishing? 

Problems with grubbiness I think are mainly relevant to pieces that will be handled often, sited in a kitchen that's used regularly (aerosolised cooking oil) and that sort of thing. A piece sited in a clean sitting room without an open fire won't have nearly as much to deal with


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## custard (14 Sep 2016)

ED65":vgxifdtx said:


> Problems with grubbiness I think are mainly relevant to pieces that will be handled often, sited in a kitchen that's used regularly (aerosolised cooking oil) and that sort of thing. A piece sited in a clean sitting room without an open fire won't have nearly as much to deal with



I disagree. Non grain filled Ash goes grubby, period.


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## ED65 (14 Sep 2016)

To the same degree, in the same timeframe?


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## custard (14 Sep 2016)

Fast enough and nasty enough that it's an issue a maker should be aware of. You may still choose to use Ash without grain filler, that's a personal choice, just do it in the full knowledge of the implications.


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## Andy Kev. (14 Sep 2016)

ED65":1tz9onwe said:


> I suppose it should have been asked ages ago, what are you finishing?
> 
> Problems with grubbiness I think are mainly relevant to pieces that will be handled often, sited in a kitchen that's used regularly (aerosolised cooking oil) and that sort of thing. A piece sited in a clean sitting room without an open fire won't have nearly as much to deal with


It's the spoon rack from The English Woodworker (aka Richard McGuire) website. Despite its name I suspect it will end up in the hall as a place to hang keys, put wallets etc.

Would you be able to recommend a good brand of grain filler?


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## custard (14 Sep 2016)

Andy Kev.":ybp1vnnx said:


> Would you be able to recommend a good brand of grain filler?



On a pale wood don't use a traditional oil based filler, even ones labelled as "natural" are closer to grey and kill the surface. Oil fillers are great for Walnut or Mahogany, not so good for Ash.

There's the slow, traditional, but cheap method of shellac and pumice, even though it's good for easy access flat surfaces it's hard to do this well on internal corners or end grain. Another grain filling option for Ash is Plaster of Paris, although it can also look a bit grey and flat unless you're adding colour. You could use a modern water based grain filler like AquaCoat (available in the UK and Europe from ToneTech), it works well on Ash providing you don't want a dead matt finish, a wash coat of a 1lb cut of de waxed blonde shellac first is an idea but not strictly essential. The downside is the price, AquaCoat is not cheap. Or there's always cellulose sanding sealer, which although not a full grain filler it's probably okay for your application.

If I wanted an heirloom job in a hurry I'd use AquaCoat, if I wanted something quick, cheap and cheerful I'd use cellulose sanding sealer, if I was prepared to sink a lot of time and effort into the finish but not much money I'd use shellac and pumice.

Here's a thoughtful Aquacoat review from Paul Marcell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fthxvsetekM

And here's a luthier's perspective,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sE9JewE2pc


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