# Disappointed with a Clifton 420



## Ulrich (11 Oct 2005)

Hallo,

relying on the high reputation of Clifton planes I recently purchased a Clifton 420 shoulderplane. But after the first more detailed look at this plane I am rather disappointed with the quality I received. Just a few examples:

The lever cap shows a lot of blowholes – probably not relevant when using the plane, but not to be expected at a plane, which is commonly regarded as one of the best on the market. Here two examples:












The end of the lever cap is tapered on the one side more than on the other:






The lever cap only partially contacts the iron, since the lever cap is crowned and at its distant end has been deeply marred when it was grinded.






The pin, around which the lever cap pivots in the body has been installed to the lever cap so that it protrudes on the one side about 3,1 mm, on the other side 5,4 mm. So when the lever cap is mounted, the pin even protrudes about the plane body on one side. The pin itselve shows blowholes, too:











The plane body is slightly asymmetric – probably not relevant for the function but in my opinion not be expected on a Clifton plane. As can be seen on the side of the plane the casting mould for this plane seems not to have been the best any more, either:








Now, Clifton ist not a too common plane maker among German woodworkers. That is why I should like to ask here for your experiences with Clifton planes. In my opinion, any of these small defects might be acceptable on its own. But all together these really seem to me too much defects on a single plane for such a renowned plane maker. Or am I expecting, too much? But my Veritas and Lie-Nielsen planes – the only high end planes I can compare the Clifton 420 with - never have shown such flaws (and the Veritas planes are even cheaper than Cliftons...). 

I should be glad to receive your opinions and advice

Ulrich


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## Philly (11 Oct 2005)

Ulrich
Give Clifton a ring or drop them a letter voicing your concerns. I have been assured that any problems will be dealt with ASAP.
Cheers
Philly


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## tombo (11 Oct 2005)

Ulrich, 

been there, got the tee shirt :wink: 
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5871 
my veritas shoulder plane gave me similar feelings when it arrived I was unsure if i was expecting too much, if you dont get it sorted it will forever play on your mind. Hope Clifton are as good as lee valley were replacing the item. 

Tom


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2005)

Ulrich

Mod note: Please post smaller pictures

As far as I can tell, none of the points you have noted will affect the performance of the plane (except the pin?) and so I say that they would not matter to me.

I think it is unreasonable ot attempt to compare Clifton to LN or LV as they really are not direct competitors. Sure, Cliftons are excellent planes and far better than Stanley/Record, but they generally have a much smaller market and cost a lot less than LN/LV and will never be of the same quality

If the issues reeally bother you, then I am sure Clifton will sort them out as they have in the past but in my opinion, if the plane cuts fine do they really matter?


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## Ulrich (12 Oct 2005)

Hello Tony,

sorry for the large pictures - I noticed that they were too large only when I had already posted. Most of the faults really are more of aesthetic than functional concern but at least the protruding pin and the crowned foot of the levercap will both affect the performance of the plane and ought to be corrected. As for the price: At least here in Germany Clifton planes cost almost as much as LN planes and a lot more the than LV planes - for example I pay at the moment 250 € for a Clifton 420 and about 170 € for the LV medium shoulder plane and 190 € for the large shoulder plane.

Ulrich


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## Jarviser (12 Oct 2005)

Tony, I am with Ulrich here. (sorry, can't do the "quote" thing). The Axminster prices are £137 for the Clifton against £169 for the larger LN 073 which is superbly finish ground, and then shipped here. I have only seen pictures of the Cliftons, but I was concerned about the rounded corners to the castings, as though they hand linish them on a belt, which is OK for door furniture, but planes should be ground on all faces for that price. Blow holes are severe weaknesses in any casting, and I believe Clifton uses grey iron, not malleable, so I would not like to drop it. The original Record 042 had crisp lines all round. I noticed similar squiffy hand linishing marks on new Stanley 93's.


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## Alf (12 Oct 2005)

I think it'd come as a surprise to most of Clifton's potential customers that they're not competing with L-N and L-V for said customers' hard-earned lolly. :-s 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2005)

Alf

Having owned and liked Clifton, LV and LN, planes, there really is a large disparity in quality but not performance. 

Clifton, in my experience and from evidence on the forum, are sitting somewhere between LN/LV and the modern Record/Stanley when it comes to quality of finish and materials. Closer to LN/LV.

However, the Clifton I purchased, whilst far from perfect in casting, finishing etc., cut as _well as any of my LNs or LVs with no fettling_ required. To me, the casting imperfections or lack of finishing are of little importance when compared to how it cuts but one definiteyly would be agrieved if paying LN prices for considerably lower quality tools. 

For instance, I was offered a new Clifton #7 recently for £159 ( at a woodworking show), whilst the LN #7 is £300.45. Not really competition or the same market in my opinion

Ulrich
If you paid same as LN prices, I really can understand why you would be unhappy and would suggest a refund and replacement with a Veritas Large (or medium) shoulder plane.


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## Alf (13 Oct 2005)

To compare apples with apples:
The Clifton 420 is £137.70 in the current Ax Cat.
The Veritas Medium is £109.47 on the BriMarc site.
The L-N Medium is $175, which given other L-N prices over here, will work out about, what? £125-130?

Not only are they in competition, but the Clifton is the *most expensive*! My case rests, m'lud.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Ulrich (13 Oct 2005)

Thankyou for your advice - as I conclude from your comments it seems as if the - in comparison for example LV - high prices of Clifton planes are not totally matched by their quality... 

Anyway: I sent a fax to Clico Tools yesterday voicing my concerns about the lack of quality in this special plane - I will inform you, if and how Clico Tools will answer.

Cheers 

Ulrich


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## ydb1md (13 Oct 2005)

Tony":rw1ev0n3 said:


> I think it is unreasonable ot attempt to compare Clifton to LN or LV as they really are not direct competitors. Sure, Cliftons are excellent planes and far better than Stanley/Record, but they generally have a much smaller market and cost a lot less than LN/LV and will never be of the same quality



Tony, I think it's entirely reasonable to hold Clifton to as high a standard as LN and LV. I'm not sure where you compare prices, but Clifton's prices seem to fall between LN and LV, not lower than both. When people mention the "top" manufacturers, they often mention LN, LV and Clifton in the same breath so why should their slipping quality be excused?

From Hartville tool, a Clifton #5 jack is $249. A LN #5 jack goes for about $300. A LV junior jack, while not a totally direct comparison, goes for about $195.

If Clifton could fix their quality issues, I'm sure they would begin to see a larger buyer base.


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## bugbear (13 Oct 2005)

Alice said:



> To compare apples with apples:
> The L-N Medium is $175, which given other L-N prices over here, will work out about, what? £125-130?



Well, the L-N site has the large shoulder plane at $225.00 which Axminster have at £169.00.

So the medium should be (pro rata) 175 * 169/225 = £131

BugBear


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## Alf (13 Oct 2005)

And there was I looking for another $175 L-N that Axminster also stocked.
Think of the time I'd save if I was any good at maths (and if L-N's site didn't
make one go to each tool individually to find the price)... #-o 

Cheers, Alf 

P.S. I also don't know much about History, don't know much Biology, 
don't know much about Science books, don't know much about the 
French I took, etc etc.  

P.P.S. You missed off the 44p :wink:


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## Scott (13 Oct 2005)

Alf":1c06p43i said:


> (and if L-N's site didn't
> make one go to each tool individually to find the price)... #-o



You're supposed to look at them all! A picture is worth a thousand words....and in this case that's "buy me" x 500!


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## Alf (13 Oct 2005)

Scott":73hbj934 said:


> You're supposed to look at them all!


Really? I thought you just scraped together what funds you could and then bought whatever you could afford - regardless.  :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (13 Oct 2005)

ydb1md":ra4pp1d6 said:


> Tony, I think it's entirely reasonable to hold Clifton to as high a standard as LN and LV.



I am not really talking about whether it is reasonable or not, my Clifton #5 was nowhere near the qulity of the LN #5, *but then it costs £70 less.* I am stating a simple and true fact. Clifton aren't of the same manufactured quality even if people want to believe they are based on the price of their shoulder planes. Most bench planes made by Clifton are much cheaper than LNs.




> When people mention the "top" manufacturers, they often mention LN, LV and Clifton in the same breath so why should their slipping quality be excused?



I am almost the only person who regularly quotes Clifton as a very good manufacturer on this forum   Most seem to only recomend LV :? 

The quality of finish is not even close to LN or LV in my experience BUT the planes I have tried and owned work as well as the same LN or LV model

I paid £150 for my Clifton #5 jack, £40 for my Stanley #5 Jack and £235 for my LN 5 1/2

Axminster have the *Clifton at #5 £154 and the LN #5 at £225* 



> If Clifton could fix their quality issues, I'm sure they would begin to see a larger buyer base.



Never a truer word spoken.


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## Anonymous (13 Oct 2005)

Alf":211meeqo said:


> To compare apples with apples:
> The Clifton 420 is £137.70 in the current Ax Cat.
> The Veritas Medium is £109.47 on the BriMarc site.
> The L-N Medium is $175, which given other L-N prices over here, will work out about, what? £125-130?
> ...



Alf, I have only talked about bench planes in my posts in this thread (only the #5 Jack which I purchased and a #7 that I nearly purchased) as I have not seen nor tried a Clifton shoulder plane and so cannot directly comment on them.

Possibly, this was not as clear in my posts as it was in my head.

Axminster have the *Clifton #5 at £154 and the LN #5 at £225*

Apples and pears i think you'll find

You pay £70 less and you get lower quality of finish and materials - but what a great plane to use!!!


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## MikeW (13 Oct 2005)

Alf":37ggwg8u said:


> ...P.S. I also don't know much about History, don't know much Biology, don't know much about Science books, don't know much about the French I took, etc etc.


Good thing you left off there--I was gonna have to grab a hanky...

Yeah. Herman's Hermits live on...

WONDERFUL WORLD

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about science books
Don't know much about the french I took
But I do know that I love you
And I know that if you loved me too
What a wonderful world this would be

Don't know much about geography
Don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
Don't know what a slide rule is for
But I know that one and one is two
And if this one could be with you
What a wonderful world this would be

Now I don't claim to be an A student
But I'm tryin' to be
Oh maybe by being an A student, baby
I can win your love for me

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about science books
Don't know much about the french I took
But I do know that I love you
And I know that if you loved me too
What a wonderful world this would be

But I do know that I love you
And I know that if you loved me too
What a wonderful world this would be


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## Alf (14 Oct 2005)

Tony":zm78by6d said:


> Alf, I have only talked about bench planes in my posts in this thread


Yes, I know. I was wondering *why*, given it was shoulder planes that are the issue... :lol: 

Mike, glad someone knew what I was on about anyway. :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (14 Oct 2005)

Alf":1ysd7z4m said:


> Tony":1ysd7z4m said:
> 
> 
> > Alf, I have only talked about bench planes in my posts in this thread
> ...



Because I have never purchased or useda Clifton Shoulder plane and so know nothing about them. 

I can only comment on the quality of planes I have actually used and/or owned - 3 bench planes - all of inferior quality to LN/LV and all costing much less. Although all Cliftons worked very nicely without fettling


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## Midnight (14 Oct 2005)

> Yes, I know. I was wondering why, given it was shoulder planes that are the issue...



once I got the bugs worked out, my Clifton 3110 works pretty well.... but...

it don't hold a candle to my L-N #73... 

nuff said...???


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## MikeW (14 Oct 2005)

Midnight":2oi8qlm9 said:


> > Yes, I know. I was wondering why, given it was shoulder planes that are the issue...
> 
> 
> once I got the bugs worked out, my Clifton 3110 works pretty well.... but...
> it don't hold a candle to my L-N #73... nuff said...???


Nope. Not enough :lol: 

I don't own either but I do own a Preston, which I like and works very well.

What would you say are the main differences in use?

Thank you, Mike


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## David C (15 Oct 2005)

I have not used L-V shoulder planes yet.

However in my experience, NO shoulder plane will work well without a little sole flattening.

The manufacturers grind soles dead flat WITHOUT the lever arm in place.

As soon as working tension is set on the spin wheel, the narrow triangle of metal which supports the blade tip, distorts and a bump appears just behind the throat. If this is a two thou bump, you will not be able to take a one thou shaving.

This also explains why a consistent working tension should be set. Marking the spin wheel with felt tip helps here.

Sole flattening must be done with blade in situ, retracted, and working tension set.

In my opinion, this information should be supplied by the manufacturer.

I strongly believe that knowing how to make a tool work well is much more important than the endless partisan prejudice which pervades the internet. The other fact is that some firms materials, aesthetics and machining are better than others. Better machining and finish usually cost more.

David Charlesworth


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## Alf (15 Oct 2005)

David C":y8tnkaro said:


> I have not used L-V shoulder planes yet.


David, would you like to borrow one? As long as you can restrain your laughter at my sharpening, of course.  No obligation to give an opinion on it, just for your own interest. 



David C":y8tnkaro said:


> As soon as working tension is set on the spin wheel, the narrow triangle of metal which supports the blade tip, distorts and a bump appears just behind the throat.


The instructions with the L-V's word this as less of a Bad Thing but rather as something to be used to advantage. Viz:


> To a small degree, the depth of cut is also influenced by the amount of clamping force applied to the lever cap wheel. As you tighten the wheel, you increase the blade clamping force that, in turn, results in a slight deflection of the blade bed. This is normal and does not affect performance. A very light clamp force will deflect the blade bed 0.0005". A hard clamp force will deflect the blade bed by as much as 0.003". Extremely small adjustments to blade depth can be achieved by changing the blade clamping force.


I think we had some correspondence about it after I'd floundered around the idea in my first review, but can I find it? #-o I really don't know what to think. Instinct says "flat", but in use it seems to be all right. But it's likely that I'm not demanding enough to notice the difference anyway. 



David C":y8tnkaro said:


> In my opinion, this information should be supplied by the manufacturer.


I can see why they'd rather not. "Congratulations, you've just spent over £100 on a finely ground shoulder plane. You now need to flatten it." :lol:



David C":y8tnkaro said:


> I strongly believe that knowing how to make a tool work well is much more important than the endless partisan prejudice which pervades the internet.


I could take that personally*, but I'll choose to assume it doesn't refer to me...



David C":y8tnkaro said:


> The other fact is that some firms materials, aesthetics and machining are better than others. Better machining and finish usually cost more.


Indeed. Which brings us back to the high cost of the Clifton considering the finish shown in this thread. :? Is it acceptable? I suppose it depends who you ask. 

Cheers, Alf

*Sore point at the moment - again. :roll:


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## Shady (15 Oct 2005)

Cripes! - I think you must have got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, David... I agree there can be partisan prejudice out there, but I don't sense too much of it in this particular board - it is actually extremely helpful for all those of us who are less expert than yourself to be able to discuss ideas, consider them and reflect on one another's opinions/experiences. I for one know that the internet has improved my awareness of the craft, and my abilities - as an amateur, it's invaluable.

FWIW, however, I completely agree that understanding the mechanics/physics of how the tool works is the key. That said, as a long time owner of all the makes under discussion, here's my 2 pence worth on the issue at hand:

I've said it before, but the level of finish on Cliftons, like their lack of a dedicated website, appears to reflect the sad reality of the UK hand tool industry/environment. (I have a very nice, tuned Clifton number 4 which works fine - but the casting of the rear tote mount is skewed - had to sand the base of the handle to correct the angle) It seems that hand tools are too small and niche to be worth bothering with, excepting the odd bespoke area. Don't get me wrong - they're 'good' tools, but they just miss being the 'loved' tools that the LV/LN appear to become...

LV & LN reflect, I suppose, the benefits of a larger market - but they also reflect the New World's philosophy of what a service industry/company should do to earn it's customers' loyalty: it will be interesting to see what response Ulrich gets from Clifton.


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## Midnight (15 Oct 2005)

> Nope. Not enough



ye can go off some people ya know..  

now, bear in mind, it's been a while since I last used either of em, but when I did, they were often used to work the same joint, so it was possible to discount marginal differences in stock etc..

I can't say I've examined the 3110 close enough to tell whether there'sblow out in the casting or not, and to be honest, provided these "flaws" aren't present in any of the working surfaces it really wouldn't bother me... 

For the sake of comparing apples with apples I'll try to ignore the differences in material, mass and the lack of adjustable throat in the 3110.

The primary differences are in ease of adjustment and rsultant quality of cut... Both planes use similar adjustment mechanisms; the L-N feels silky smooth straight out of the box while the 3110 feels gritty despite a thorough dousing in degreaser to remove any machining waste...

The differences in adjustment reflect directly in cut quality; the micrometer smoothness in the L-N make it possible to ease the blade just a hairin either direction. The 3110 can over / undershoot the spot you're after quite easily... the gritty feel in the mechanism has an effect similar to preset detents; its all to easy to fall short of or be too far through your desired point...

That said, I should point out that both planes are in "as new" condition; the Clifton may well improve as the mating parts bed in with use... But initial impressions left me feeling that the Clifton was definately "workmanlike" while the L-N felt simply superb.

Last point.... I've learned through experience that both companies have exemplary after-sales servise...


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## MikeW (15 Oct 2005)

Thanks Mike!

That's what I was looking for. Ease of adjustment isn't just a nicety. That's how the Preston is as well, though from so many years of use there is a small amount of backlash so if I need to lessen the cut I need to back off a tiny bit more than if it was tight and advance to the desired position. But at least it is smooth.

I've never really used the Clifton, though I've hefted it. Used the LN, but only at the woodworking shows. It's not like I need another one...

And as much as I like LV gear, I really like the looks and feel of my Preston and would be apt to get the LN or the Clifton, so you've given me something to look for if I go to buy. And it would be a 3/4" size as my large one is an infill shoulder plane and I have the LN 1/2" and I love 'em both.

Of course, I could always make one...

Thanks again. Mike


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## Alf (15 Oct 2005)

MikeW":2mhwsht4 said:


> And as much as I like LV gear, I really like the looks and feel of my Preston


I was just thinking this evening that planes are becoming like routers (of the tailed sort). In an ideal world you could have feature A off this model, and feature B off that one etc, and end up with the perfect shoulder plane. In the meantime all we have is the opportunities to argue like crazy in defence of the one with the features we like best and consider most important. Thank goodness, eh? Or all these fora would be deathly quiet. :lol: 

Cheers, Alf

Looking at the world through cider-tinted spectacles and finding it a better place. Hic! ccasion5:


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## David C (16 Oct 2005)

Thanks Alf for your kind offer and apologies for getting out of bed on the wrong side!

On reflection my last over colourful sentence was a bit OTT, too much seductive alliteration, so hurriedly withdrawn. My main interest is to explain HOW to get good performance from tools

Sole deflection, caused by lever arm tension is a serious issue for all shoulder planes. I am pleased to hear that it is mentioned by L-V.

To check this issue on your own planes, set working tension with the blade just retracted and then examine sole with accurate straight edge or set square blade. almost all planes will exhibit the 'bump behind the throat' which will stop them from taking super fine shavings which we will need in difficult hardwood.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Alf (16 Oct 2005)

David C":38k46ltv said:


> too much seductive alliteration


Alluring alliteration...? :-k 

Cheers, Alf


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## David C (16 Oct 2005)

Touche......

can't find the acute symbol on my keyboard.

DC


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## Jarviser (17 Oct 2005)

David C":3u6y3vu8 said:


> ....a bump appears just behind the throat. If this is a two thou bump, you will not be able to take a one thou shaving.









No sooner said than tried - look at my brand new L-N 073 with 2 rubs on 600 grit - and I thought it was flat! Thanks David, I will finish the job later.


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## trevtheturner (18 Oct 2005)

Thanks for your picture, Jarviser, which illustrates the point so clearly. As is often said - a picture says a thousand words.

:shock: And on a brand new L-N, no less! :lol: 

Cheers,

Trev.


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## Matt1245 (18 Oct 2005)

> However, the Clifton I purchased, whilst far from perfect in casting, finishing etc., cut as well as any of my LNs or LVs with no fettling required. To me, the casting imperfections or lack of finishing are of little importance when compared to how it cuts but one definiteyly would be agrieved if paying LN prices for considerably lower quality tools.



But if you bought a new car which had a few dents and scratches here and there, you'd send that back, even though it'd get you from a-b just as easily. 

If i was paying that kind of money for a quailty item then i'd expect it to be as close as possible to perfect.


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## Ulrich (7 Nov 2005)

Derek Brown from Clico Tooling Ltd. has meanwhile answered my report about my problems with the Clifton 420 shoulder plane: They will replace it free of charge as soon as possible - I think that's a kind of customer service worth mentioning here...  

Ulrich


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## Philly (7 Nov 2005)

A good result Ulrich!  
Philly


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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2005)

MikeW":2oucy5bc said:


> Alf":2oucy5bc said:
> 
> 
> > ...P.S. I also don't know much about History, don't know much Biology, don't know much about Science books, don't know much about the French I took, etc etc.
> ...



Herman's Hermits????? MIIIIIKE! 

That was a pale copy of the great Sam Cooke's song!

Check out the scene in the movie "Witness" where Harrison Ford dances with Kelly McGillis to Sam Cooke's version.

Woodworking content: In the above movie, Harrison Ford shows his woodworking chops as he edge joints a board with a woodie plane and a try square. I was amazed until I remembered he was a carpenter turned actor.

PS: I just realized I'm probably the only one here who listened to '50's songs during the '50's.


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## DaveL (7 Nov 2005)

Ulrich, 

Excellent news, enjoy using the new one. 8)


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## Alf (8 Nov 2005)

Roger Nixon":d2gga07i said:


> "Witness"...
> 
> Woodworking content: In the above movie, Harrison Ford shows his woodworking chops as he edge joints a board with a woodie plane and a try square. I was amazed until I remembered he was a carpenter turned actor.


Ah yes, the galoots' movie. I believe there's some sort of plot in it somewhere, but who cares when you can play "spot the tool". :lol: 

Ulrich, that's good news.  

Cheers, Alf


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## ike (8 Nov 2005)

> but who cares when you can play "spot the tool"



Steady on! - theres no need to talk about Harrison Ford like that.


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## Alf (8 Nov 2005)

ike":2bg7y3a7 said:


> > but who cares when you can play "spot the tool"
> 
> 
> 
> Steady on! - theres no need to talk about Harrison Ford like that.


 :roll: [-X ( :lol: )


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