# How to build a builtin wardrobe in an alcove - the technique



## CYC

Hi all, 

I need to build 2 builtin wardrobes in alcoves. Needless to say the alcoves don't have perfectly straight walls. So I am starting this thread to capture the right techniques you Pros use to create this builtin furniture? 

Here are the usual items to work around: 
- Walls not straight 
- pipes inside the alcove 
- plaster moulding at top of walls 
- Skirting 

The more pictures and sketches you can provide for clear explanation the better. I think this would benefit a lot of readers in the long run as well as me. 

Thanks in advance


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## Sgian Dubh

If you can find these two articles of mine they should help. Slainte.

Every rod tells a story, 1	Furniture & Cabinetmaking	Issue 85, Feb. 2004	

Every rod tells a story, 2	Furniture & Cabinetmaking	Issue 86, March 2004


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## Anonymous

CYC

I think you need to scribe the wall using a pecil and block. Hold a sheet of wood perpendicular to the wall, (may be the cabinet side itself) and run a thin block with a pencil on the opposite end along the wall. The pencil should be held against the perpendicualr sheet. The profile of the wall will be followed by the block and the pencil will draw the profile onto the perpendicualr sheet. Cut to line for perfect fit.

You could use a pair of (lockable) dividers for this instead of block and pencil and scribe a line on the board


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## Aragorn

Hi

For wonky walls I always scribe a piece.

This is the technique I use:

Take the piece of wood you want to use as your wall stile.
Make sure the inside edge of this wood is nice and straight - this will become the edge that you hang your doors from.
Hold the wood against the wall with a spirit level against the good edge.
Have a look how far out it is at the top or bottom (just roughly) Let's call this 15mm.
Drive a screw into the top or bottom of the stile (depending which end is away from the wall) leaving roughly 15mm of the screw sticking out.
Now offer it up again with the spirit level resting the screw against the wall. This means the wood is now securely stable against the wall, and you can accurately check the spirit level.
Drive the screw in or out as need be until the spirit level reads plumb.
Now scribe the wall profile onto the stile - I use a compass for this. Just hold the wood against the wall: the wood touching at one end, the screw touching the other, and run the compass down.
Cut with a jigsaw or bandsaw.
When offered up to the wall, it should now be lovely and plumb on the inside edge.

Works for me everytime!


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## CYC

Thanks Tony & Aragorn, so what do the pros usually build with? 

- A face frame and hang the doors to it. Fix batons on either side of the inside of the alcove to lay shelves.

-Build a carcasse that fits loose in the alcove and then scrib a face frame around it.

Aragorn, in your example, I guess you are using the first option? How do you fix the frame securely in the alcove?


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## Aragorn

I have built both types: carcass with a scribed face-frame, and cupboards that go straight onto the walls.

Depends on what you want really: the "straight-in" type is definitely quicker, easier and cheaper IMO.

The carcass type is more attractive, convenient (if you do most of the work in the workshop) and versatile (e.g. it's easier and neater to have adjustable shelving etc).

To fix the frame in the alcove I use two methods depending on how smart it needs to be.
Method one is to screw some baton (32 x32mm) onto the wall the length of the stile. The face frame gets glued and pinned/biscuited to this.

Method two is to screw the stile directly to the wall by boring an 8mm hole partway through the good edge and then plugging it. (The head of an 8g screw fits through an 8mm hole).

In either case, I would use No nails/Gripfill as well.


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## CYC

Thanks aragorn, this is really helpful.


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## johnelliott

The way I do this is to design and make the largest rectilinear cabinet that will fit into the space, usually from 18mm birch ply with 6mm for the back.
Then I fit strips, usually of 18mm material to the outside of the box, set back by 6mm. 
Then, place the box in the alcove and fix it into position by whatever means are appropriate. Then get some 6mm material and scribe it to fit into the gaps between the cabinet and the walls. When it fits, nail or glue it to the strips mentioned above.
We usually use some decorators caulk to fill the slight gaps between strip and wall that will usually be present.
This way there are no worries about the rigidity of the face frame, because there isn't one. Doors are standard overlaid type

John


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## CYC

Aragorn, another question:
In the case of using the frame option ("straight in"), given that I use some ready made door (the usual built-in doors), how do you hinge them to the frame, I guess you can't use the usual european hinges?


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## Aragorn

When the doors are a fixed size, because they are ready-bought, it is essential to be accurate with the width of the stiles _after _they are scribed in.

One option is to start with timber that is way to wide, scribe it is as described above, then plane down the good side so that the opening is just right to suit the doors.
TBH I usually just do it by scribing off the right amount on the waste side, but if you want to allow yourself some margin for error on the scribed side, better to cut them down to width afterwards.

I usually hang the doors to the face-frame with normal butt hinges, so that the front of the cabinet is flush.

If you want the door mounted in front of the face frame, it's better to go with John's suggestion and use a carcass, else you have to pack out the inside of the stiles to accomodate the size of the european hinges.


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## tim

I tend to make a carcase as John described above and then plant on a face frame using biscuits and plugged screws. I can't remember where I got this trick I use for scribing but it stops any faffing about. Its dead easy to do and damned difficult to describe (so bear with me):

Cut a row of biscuit slots in the edge of the cabinet side panel. Cut corresponding slots in the back of the face frame stile to give you whatever lip you want to have inside the cabinet. Then run a further row of slots parallel to the first row on the face frame stile at an arbitrary distance that is greater than the width of the outer edge of the stile to the wall edge.

Set a pair of compasses to the distance from the edge of one biscuit slot to the corresponding edge of the parallel one ie the offset. 

Place the stile on to the cabinet edge using the paralled set of slots and scribe using the compasses. Cut the waste away, refit the stile using the original slots and its a perfect fit.

If its not clear, I'll see if I can draw it up. It does work a treat and means that you aren't having to balance many things at the same time - if you are good at cutting with a jigsaw you can normally get away with no filler or caulk first time.

Cheers

Tim


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## Aragorn

Tim - that is an excellent method! Love it.
Neat, simple, foolproof.


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## tim

Aragorn":2azxmkmk said:


> Tim - that is an excellent method! Love it.
> Neat, simple, foolproof.



Its a proper 'eureka' moment isn't it! I couldn't believe how simple it was when I first heard it!

Cheers

Tim


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## CYC

I am so sorry Tim but I am not sure I fully get it    

It would be so good of you to draw some sketches. It sounds too good not to have everyone not understand it :wink: :wink: 
Are you using pre-made doors which you hang with european hinges in this scenario, if so, doesn't the hinge land partly on the face frame's edge, is that acceptable for solidity?

I have to do two builtin wardrobes for a family member very soon so I would really appreciate to know the right technique before I mess it up :lol: 

Thanks Tim, and thanks aragorn also for sharing your professional expertise.


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## Neil

That is REALLY clever, Tim - thanks so much for posting it  

Cheers,
Neil


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## Adam

I don't get it either  

Adam


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## Scrit

Hope this makes the technique a little clearer:







The left hand item is the edge of the wardrobe side, the right hand piece is the BACK of the face frame shown with the two parallel rows of biscuit slots, 18mm apart, with a mudguard washer with an 18mm offset used to mark the scribe. In this case there would be no overlap of the face frame over the carcass side. I'd use a washer and pencil to transfer the scribe marking onto the face frame upright. 

Scrit


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## j

Wow,
NOW I get it (i think)
I'll have to try it to really understand it, but i'm sure it works great.

Thanks


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## CYC

Scrit, I am afraid I am more confused now. I think I understood it more before 



> In this case there would be no overlap of the face frame over the carcass side. I'd use a washer and pencil to transfer the scribe marking onto the face frame upright.



Does it mean you are leaving apparent slots in the edge of carcass? I didn't think Tim said that.
Sorry if I am missing a really obvious point  :roll: 

I hope i don't irritate you all


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## tim

Thanks Scrit - I gave up trying to draw it - if I get chance over the next few days I'll cobble one up and photograph it.



CYC":1iqoihyv said:


> Are you using pre-made doors which you hang with european hinges in this scenario, if so, doesn't the hinge land partly on the face frame's edge, is that acceptable for solidity?



It depends on whether there is a lip or not - if you use a frame thats flush with the cabinet edge then its no different except that you need to set the hinge plate back from the front face of the frame and not the cabinet. Where there is a lip, I use face frame hinge plates, which screw to the face frame and I put a small packing fillet under the back part (although I've done it without and encountered no probs). I would post a link but every time I post a Hafele link it only ever shows the front page so I'll just copy the pic:






Hope that helps

Cheers

Tim


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## Scrit

Woodfit also do a similar hinge, here - it's a Blum, so good quality.

Scrit


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## j

CYC":1k83o5tt said:


> Scrit, I am afraid I am more confused now. I think I understood it more before


I know what you mean, I thought I had it, looked away and now it's gone again  But seing as I don't have any alcoves to fit a wardrobe in, I won't need to try it yet. But I'd like to understand it.



> Does it mean you are leaving apparent slots in the edge of carcass? I didn't think Tim said that.
> Sorry if I am missing a really obvious point  :roll:



I think the two rows of slots are on the back of the face frame. One of the rows will be used to attach the face frame, the others will not be seen as they'll be on the back of the face frame between the carcass and the wonky wall. (they may well get cut off during the scribing process, depending on how much you cut I think.

almost had it there... but no it's gone again.

Hope that helps, and doesn't confuse further.


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## Scrit

j":2m87y0k7 said:


> I think the two rows of slots are on the back of the face frame. One of the rows will be used to attach the face frame, the others will not be seen as they'll be on the back of the face frame between the carcass and the wonky wall. (they may well get cut off during the scribing process, depending on how much you cut I think.


Yessir! Give that man a cupie doll! The slots are indeed on the back face of the face frame and won't ever be seen. It is immaterial whether or not the face frame ends flush with the carcass side or not, the principle is the same. Maybe this will help:







As far as face frame hinges go, there is an alternative. You can use a standard concealed hinge where the plate is attached to the side of the carcass and with that plate set on a spacer block (to match the face frame overlap) or with a large offset base plate as here

Scrit


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## tim

Well done Scrit. 

Does everyone understand it now?

The only prob with the Blum hinge is that it leaves a big gap between the front of the face frame and the door. You also have to have a frame that overhangs the front of the cabinet as shown in the link drawing. The plate I indicated allows you to use normal concealed hinges giving a tighter fit and more adjustability and gives you the choice of how big a lip you want from zero upwards.

Cheers

Tim


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## Adam

Ahh yes, I see now - very clever. Thankyou.

Adam


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## CYC

Thanks Scrit and Tim. Thanks for your patience. 
I guess my knowledge of hinges got me there  

To recap, here is what I understood (using Tim words as explanation): 

Cut a row of biscuit slots in the edge of the cabinet side panel. 





Cut corresponding slots in the back of the face frame stile to give you whatever lip you want to have inside the cabinet. Then run a further row of slots parallel to the first row on the face frame stile at an arbitrary distance that is greater than the width of the outer edge of the stile to the wall edge.  





Set a pair of compasses to the distance from the edge of one biscuit slot to the corresponding edge of the parallel one ie the offset. Place the stile on to the cabinet edge using the paralled set of slots and scribe using the compasses. 









Cut the waste away, refit the stile using the original slots and its a perfect fit.  









Did i get that right this time :?: :-k


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## Scrit

Yes. The face frame doesn't necessarily end flush to the inside of the carcass,there can be a return (which is more normal and is shown that way in my second diagram)

Scrit


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## CYC

Yes I understood that eventually!
I was stuck (in my head) with the use of a standard european hinge (the ones you see in all the kitchens and wardrobes around here) 




so I was asking about securing those hinges to the inside of the carcass overlapping the thickness of the face frame.

Do you always have the doors flush to the face frame? 
And do you recommend having a return, why?


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## tim

Good drawing except that XX is wrong. Its measured from the same edge of both slots otherwise you will gain or lose the width of the biscuit as well.

A return is normal because its easier to hide any slight deviations. If you aim for flush and the board has a slight wibble in it then it won't be flush everywhere. Its no different to creating a shadow line or arrising where two parts meet to 'celebrate' the joint. ie its purely aesthetic.


Those are the kind of hinges I use btw CYC. You can use those with the plates I showed. If you look here at the second pic from bottom you'll see them


Cheers

Tim


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## dedee

Fascinating thread - thanks guys.

I do hope I can remember this when required.

Andy


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## CYC

Thanks Tim, I have touched up the image to correct this mistake.

Now, just to be complete. 
How do you build the bottom of the wardrobe?  
Do you have any picture/diagram of what it should look like?

On common builtin wardrobes I always see the plinth recessed under the bottom self.


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## Scrit

CYC":3khmjaxm said:


> I was stuck (in my head) with the use of a standard european hinge (the ones you see in all the kitchens and wardrobes around here)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so I was asking about securing those hinges to the inside of the carcass overlapping the thickness of the face frame.


That's why I posted the link to the base plate with the 18mm offset. It allows you to use a standard concealed hinge in a face frame with a return. You can also get riser blocks from Blum, Hettich and Salice (possibly others) to achieve the same thing or mount your base plate on a strip/piece of plywood/hardwood, etc which would allow you to utilise a cam-adjuster base plate (much easier). If there is no return (i.e. the face frame edge is flush to the inside of the carcass) then a standard concealed hinge can be used in the same way as on a frameless kitchen cabinet and you'll see the frame between doors. The base plate screws are about 37mm in from the front edge of the carcase with concealed hinges so you do have to work out your clearances carefully, which is one reason to go to lay-on (overlaid) doors with face frame hinges - they're a lot easier to hang. 



CYC":3khmjaxm said:


> Do you always have the doors flush to the face frame?
> And do you recommend having a return, why?


Inset doors can be done using concealed hinges and are easier to adjust than butt hinges (providing you use cammed adjuster plates), but I prefer to use a butt hinge in that case - just depends on the look I'm after, really. Personal choice.

The return stems from kitchen practice where you have a run of several cabinets which are screwed together then a single face frame is added. In that case you need to use butt hinges or lay-on face frame hinges as you can't guarantee alignment between the carcasses and the face frame.

The way you go with this depends on what you like and how much effort you're willing to put in to achieve a result and as I said - it's all a matter of choice

Scrit


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## Scrit

CYC":upvduvl6 said:


> On common built-in wardrobes I always see the plinth recessed under the bottom self.


But you're not building an IKEA special if you're doing a built-in. So that's not the only way to go - you could just as easily add a false plinth built out from the base of the carcass like having a miniature skirting board attached - or even use skirting to match the skirting fitted in the room. Anything goes.

Scrit


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## tim

What Scrit said.

If its going onto carpet that they aren't planning to cut back to fit then I generally do recessed.......... otherwise I plant it on to match existing skirting boards.........., unless they are very high or low and would affect the shape and usefulness of the cabinet ie your call.

Cheers

Tim


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## engineer one

as far as insetting the doors, you could put spacer blocks for the hinge plates, that way you get the distance. rather than say three blocks you can put a fill strip all the way up. and i do suggest 3 hinges on a door this stall.

as for the plinth, i think it is always a good thing to have a kick gap to allow you to get to the back more easily. by that it is set back by up to 
3 inches.

tim's idea is great, and you could always remove the excess inside too.

i do think it is better for a wardrobe to have a back to you don't loose things, because we never pull them out often enough. so make a box, or two, and slide them into the space, then put the frames around them, you get them more stable, and it is easier to manufacture.

final thought, you could always use sliding doors which pull out, and then fold inwards, rather like a tv cabinet, and i know about those.

the final thought is doors, do you have enough space for opening doors, or should you think about using sliding ones?

actually tim your initial explanation was clear and concise thanks =D> 

paul :wink:


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## Les Mahon

Having just read this thread, I only have one comment....

Why did nobody explain that technique to me years ago????????? :roll: 

Very slick solution I like it alot.

Les


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## CYC

I am glad this is benefiting many. 
I am for one very happy to have brought it up.
Thank you to everyone for their input. I'll post pictures of what I end up building [-o<


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## JFC

I too missed this thread  So all i can add are some pics :lol: 
The false back is a good idea as you have a fixing for half way adjustable shelving as seen in the pic below . Also you can see ive added a strip of 18mm mdf on the side of the central divider to allow for the lay on doors .




With regards to the plinth i go with what the customer wants but if its a high ceiling or a period house i just have to match the mouldings :twisted: 
Ive only got a pic of the cornice in progress but im back there on tuesday and can take pics of the finished project if your interested . I also matched the skirtings .


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## matt

How many sections are there to your cabinets/wardrobes? If more than 2 then there is a fairly straightforward way to proceed... Lets say we're making a 3 section wardrobe - carcass and face frame:

1. Hang a plumb line against each alcove wall to see how far out they are at their widest point.
2. Build the 2 sections of the wardrobe that will butt up to the walls, making sure that the stile against the wall is wide enough to scribe (this is where the measurment in 1 comes in) whilst remaining sensible proportions.
3. Build a dead-level plint in the alcove.
4. Stand each wardrobe section on the plinth and push it up to touch it's respective sidewall.
5. Scribe, lift off, cut with jigsaw, and then put back an fix in position.
6. You should now have a perfectly square hole inbetween the two side sections in to which to measure, build, and install the final section.

You don't have to have >2 sections - it just adds that layer of flexability.

Matt


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## johnelliott

Many of the replies are dealing with face frames and how to fit them. Why bother with a face frame at all? Is it an appearance thing?

John


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## tim

johnelliott":14n7lizc said:


> Why bother with a face frame at all? Is it an appearance thing?



Partly - I do think face frames look nicer. 

I also find it easier to fit and scribe a frame than fit a frameless cabinet.

I don't have to paint or finish a cabinet edge in a different finish to the inside. Also being cynical a frame seems to have a higher perceived value (not Ikea) so I can charge more for it.

Cheers

Tim


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## matt

I prefer the look of face frames, butt hinges, and panelled doors. There are very few circumstances (in fact I can't think of any) where I'd take a different approach.


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## dlowry_uk

Very useful thread - I have to put a TV/entertainment unit in a wide alcove and most of the problems I've been worrying about have been covered here. 

One question on fitting face frames though. With a freestanding cabinet, i assume the frame would normally be built and glued up before being fixed to the cabinet. Whats the procedure with a big builtin, where the stiles need scribing?

Are the frame components fixed individually to the cabinet, and if so, how do you ensure a good stile/rail join?

Thanks
Drew


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## Scrit

dlowry_uk":emi5tkni said:


> Whats the procedure with a big builtin, where the stiles need scribing?
> 
> Are the frame components fixed individually to the cabinet, and if so, how do you ensure a good stile/rail join?


You still make-up the frame before applying it, although the frame may need to be 2 or 3 pieces in fact. Sometimes it can be easier to scribe the frame stile _before_ assembling the frame

Scrit


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## swinster

Sorry to drag up this old thread, but I am looking to have a go at a very similar project. I want to build some built in wardrobes into the eves of a loft and was looking at using either veneered MDF or Chipboard with angle cut acrylic doors (probably from parpan or such). With quotes coming in from fitted Bedroom suppliers at around £3-4k ( :shock: :shock: ) I wouldn't mind giving this a go.

However, all the images form the original thread are now no longer linked. If anyone still is subscribed and still has the images available, I would very much like it if the could be re-linked, as I (like so many of the others) am having difficulty understanding with out the pictorial backup.


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## jasonB

Check the cost of your Parapan, the doors will cost several hundread pounds each which will eat into the £3-4K quite quickly.

Sorry can't help with teh pics


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## swinster

jasonB":2d20mdx5 said:


> Check the cost of your Parapan, the doors will cost several hundread pounds each which will eat into the £3-4K quite quickly.
> 
> Sorry can't help with teh pics



I'm just doing that as we speak ccasion5:. as I kinda figured that this might be the case. We are after simple contemporary slab doors (square edged, no bevels, hand cut-out our dado lines etc) that can be cut to the correct angle and finished well (probably by the manufacturer) in a high gloss finish or the colour of our choice (mushroom apparently says the boss). Has anyone got any other ideas for door types like this?

The room width is a approximately 4.2m (although still under construction so plasterboard and finish will affect this), but the eves are low so will will not have doors all the way across). The ridge height is approximately 2.1m at the centre of the room, and the eves go down to approx 700mm on both sides. With these measurements (and the fact that we want a run of drawers under the eves on one side) I don't think we will have more that 5-6 doors. I will build a stud frame and plasterboard the areas under the lowest parts of the eves.

I will run up a little skechup diagram to help me visualise what I want.


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## MickCheese

I have seen some on here get very good results with MDF and a spray finish.

The bedroom is not as hard wearing as say a kitchen so should stand the test of time.

Is that worth a thought? Would be considerably cheaper I think.

Mick


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## DTR

I know it's an old thread, but thanks for the tips! I will be taking on a project like this in the near future so this has been an interesting read.


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## swinster

@MickCheese - I will probably spray paint the room, as i had a fantastic finish with the kitchen like that with an relatively cheap HVLP sprayer, but never though of spraying doors. Not sure if i could get the finish I would want.

Anyhow, I have now knock up a Sketch up drawing of what i think I would like, although I'm not sure it will work quite as it is. I have created another post with attached renders as its a little off topic, but should you wish to view and give me further advice, please have a look here (ideas-for-wardrobe-built-in-the-eves-of-a-loft-t50268.html)


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## MickCheese

I am no expert but just keep in mind the shine a car sprayer gets by cutting back and finally polishing a sprayed finish.

Worth a trial piece to see if it is possible. Would save you a fortune on those posh doors.

Mick


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## swinster

MickCheese":3st88zwu said:


> I am no expert but just keep in mind the shine a car sprayer gets by cutting back and finally polishing a sprayed finish.
> 
> Worth a trial piece to see if it is possible. Would save you a fortune on those posh doors.
> 
> Mick



Cheers Mick. My Spraying kit is nothing like a car sprayer. You need a High pressure compressor and fine spray head for that. My High Volume, Low Pressure stuff will give a good finish on a wall compared with a roller, but simply won't cut a high polished finish. Not sure if I will be able to get them sprayed locally or not. In know what I can and can't do and I think that I have neither the skill not equipment to do this.

I think your right with the Parapan. Very nice but toooooooo expensive. I have seen some acrylic skinned doors (such as Zurfiz - although don't have quite have the colour range) that if I can get cut to the right shape might do the job. 

The search goes on...


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