# Feed rollers for drum sander



## murphy (5 Dec 2016)

I made a drum sander/thicknesser about 3-4 years ago very similar to this http://woodgears.ca/sander/plans/index.html and it has worked great, I use it for thicknessing the rings for segmented bowls and the only problem is pushing the stock through by hand on a tray, it is a bit tedious after a while, trying to keep a steady feed rate, so I was wondering if anyone who has built one of these has added feed rollers like on a planer thicknesser or a feed belt of some sort like on the Jet machines, I think feed rollers would be best as tracking belts is a problem, also getting the belt on there as it is closed in would be a problem, anyone got any views on this, or should I just go and buy a Jet 16-32


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## rafezetter (5 Dec 2016)

I've looked at homemade drum sanders for some time now and googling "homemade drum sander" will bring up a plethora of variations including ones with feed rollers, as you say being the easiest of the two options, both sprung and un-sprung. I would imagine a separate smaller motor would be better than trying to fiddle with the gearing to the main motor, then add pully's to suit.

If yours is similar to the one in the plans it looks like you'll have plenty of space for this retrofit.

I'll be following this with interest.


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## Wildman (5 Dec 2016)

need to be spring loaded and geared down quite a bit from the main motor to provide a slowish feed in the opposite direction to the sanding roller. have looked into it a bit but not followed up or even built the drum sander yet.
Of course there is a really easy alternative. Sand on a sled pulled through by a weight on the output side, just thinking sideways.


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## rafezetter (5 Dec 2016)

Wildman":3087wza2 said:


> Of course there is a really easy alternative. Sand on a sled pulled through by a weight on the output side, just thinking sideways.



you know.... that isn't the craziest idea - gravity is constant (well most places except near tool shops) and to get more travel you could loop the line over a pulley in the ceiling.

It would even give you the ability to vary the thickness of the cut by weight, taking more off with a coarse paper and a heavy weight with fewer passes, then less cut and lighter weight.

Should be enough old barbell weight sets kicking around ebay.

All you'd need to ensure is a locking pin on the sled you can remove once you've released the weight - or position the sled then put the weight on with slack line and let go.


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## Wildman (5 Dec 2016)

a friction brake on the cord would control speed of travel. Several turns around an output roller would take car of distance travelled and a large dia return would speed that up there we go almost designed you just need to build it. As the table swings through an arc to adjust the thickness then the roller has to be sprung if you go that route. but a sled/weight would cost nowt but some scrap to try out.


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## murphy (6 Dec 2016)

I have been looking on youtube for ideas and think using this guy's plan might be the best way, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggyOKU02SdM and use spring loaded rollers covered with rubber maybe wood covered with a bicycle wheel tube or something similar, as for the motor to drive this I have no idea at the moment, this guy had run his with a drill in another video, I have an old belt sander so could take the motor from that, but the speed control is another issue, it would need to be a variable speed motor, maybe I will have a look on Ebay for the motor, anyone got ideas for the motor


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## bernienufc (6 Dec 2016)

I made one of these from the motor/belts/bearings from an old paint shaker, it is by far my most used and favourite power tool
I use a piece of worktop polished and cut down on hinges for the platform but it is a manual feed, i can go from 50mm thick down to touching the roller with the platform.

I am thinking maybe a stepper motor for a belt drive as it can be speed controlled and geared to a large variety of speeds, but that for me would be a lot of work so i'll enjoy it as it is for now


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## murphy (6 Dec 2016)

That is a good idea about using a stepper motor I will look into that, I have an X Carve CNC machine so know what the motors are like, but the problem with variable speed is still there, reducing the speed with pulleys is ok but still not as good as variable speed, which is what I would really like


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## Wildman (6 Dec 2016)

there are lots of speed controllers out there try ebay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4000W-220V-AC ... SwxehXPEKe


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## murphy (7 Dec 2016)

Thank's Wildman, that looks great, I know very little about motors and speed controllers, could you give me some idea of which motor to go with that controller


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## Wildman (7 Dec 2016)

anything up to 4kw should be fine, I've ordered one myself it looked so good. Be grand to slow a bandsaw right down for cutting metal (with the correct blade of course).


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## murphy (8 Dec 2016)

I just found a motor on an old scroll saw, it is 90watt I think, just wondering would that do for the feed rollers, or would I need more power


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## murphy (10 Dec 2016)

I have tried that speed controller that you said Wildman and it does not work on the 90w motor it slows down a little and then the motor cuts off, I don't think it will be any good for slowing down your bandsaw, it is more like a dimmer switch, I have been Googling and think what I need is a geared motor like the motor they use on the Jet machines but they are way to expensive like £200, the stepper motor idea is fine but I would need a controller to run it and a computer, anyone got any ideas that are not too complicated


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## Walney Col (10 Dec 2016)

Run one of these towards it's upper voltage rating and I'm pretty sure it'll have all the torque you need.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/555-Metal-Gea ... SwZVlXiM2Y

I use this speed controller with it and get bags of power at 18v.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162220699648? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Col.


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## murphy (10 Dec 2016)

Thank's Col
as I said in my earlier post I know very little about motors, this looks great but it's 6-24v DC where do I get the power to run it, do I use a transformer, or is it run off a battery, maybe the speed controller that I just got would do with this motor, what do you use your's for, can you explain a bit more please


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## Walney Col (10 Dec 2016)

Mine is geared down to half speed through a toothed belt onto a 20mm dia 4mm pitch acme thread lead screw. The lead screw sends a 600W carriage mounted trimmer router along a track while the other end of the lead screw turns a series of large wooden reduction gears to give an overall reduction in speed of 200:1 which turns the table leg which the router is milling.





The image ought to give you a good idea of the machine mine's mounted on. The machine isn't finished yet though I have had the router running along the track and as I say it seems to have plenty of torque and I'm only running it at 18V.

Most generic speed controllers would run the motor I've got but at maximum load on 24volts I believe it can draw around 6A. I'm running mine off a surplus 10A 18V Hobbyking lipo battery charger. At 12V you WOULD have reduced speed and power but if that happened to be enough for your purposes a half decent car battery charger would run it nicely. One extra load you'd have (that I don't have to cater for) would be the sheer weight (and friction) of whatever sized piece of wood you're pushing. 

Col.


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## murphy (10 Dec 2016)

Thank's Col
you have been a great help, the router lathe/ milling machine looks very impressive, I have had a look at battery chargers and they are quite cheap £25-£30 I dont know if 12v is enough or not , it would have to be trial and error, I also had a look at AC motors but don't know if they will work with the speed controller, does it have to be a DC motor, it is important to be able to control the speed, I am only sanding rings for segmented bowls so there will be no strain on the motor and only taking light passes, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291503286740? ... EBIDX%3AIT,


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## Walney Col (10 Dec 2016)

The AC motor in the link looks distinctly under-powered to me at only 14W, and would in any case need a different type of speed controller that (unfortunately) I've no experience with so couldn't offer advise on. 

For only a handful of bowl segments at a time (I'm assuming you'll be sanding 1 ring at a time?) I'm pretty sure you'll be fine with a car charger. Incidentally, for your use this speed controller would work just as welll as the one I've got and it's only £4 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-New-12V-36 ... SwXSJXPFcN

Col.


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## Claymore (10 Dec 2016)

Clever stuff Colin!

Brian


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## murphy (11 Dec 2016)

Thank's Col
I will forget about AC for now and go with the battery charger, I was thinking of this http://www.screwfix.com/p/ring-rcb206-6 ... -12v/69046 is that good enough, and I will order the motor and speed controller today, what do you think, 
Pat


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## Walney Col (11 Dec 2016)

That charger would run the motor I showed you fine albeit not at the motors predicted top speed (which I personally found to be a bit fast anyway).

Col.


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## murphy (11 Dec 2016)

Thank's again Col
I don't think the loss of speed will be a problem as long as there is enough torque, I may even have to reduce the speed further with a pulley, I need to find a 8mm pulley to fit that motor first and then do a trial run using the speed controller, I am using 19mm steel round bar for the feed rollers, I am not to sure yet what diamater to make them , more trial and error, or what to cover them with - velcro with sandpaper like the main drum or use rubber, they will be spring loaded, I have emailed a company that make conveyer rubber covered rollers and should have a reply Tomorrow, 
Pat


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## sploo (14 Dec 2016)

murphy":3h7u0yqr said:


> Thank's again Col
> I don't think the loss of speed will be a problem as long as there is enough torque, I may even have to reduce the speed further with a pulley, I need to find a 8mm pulley to fit that motor first and then do a trial run using the speed controller, I am using 19mm steel round bar for the feed rollers, I am not to sure yet what diamater to make them , more trial and error, or what to cover them with - velcro with sandpaper like the main drum or use rubber, they will be spring loaded, I have emailed a company that make conveyer rubber covered rollers and should have a reply Tomorrow,
> Pat


Be aware that gearing (or pulleys) also has an affect on torque; gearing an input down by 2:1 results in a 2x torque amplification at the output (ignoring real-world efficiency losses).

However, halving the speed of a single phase motor (I believe usually by chopping the wave for an AC motor or pulsing [switch mode] for a DC motor) will reduce the power, and with it the torque.

Three phase with a VFD is better, as the AC wave changes frequency (so you get the full wave driving the motor) - but that's perhaps overkill here.

Point being: there will be a sweet spot of a moderate rpm (i.e. moderately loud), moderate wattage motor that can be geared down for your desired output rpm and necessary torque - so don't think of gearing (or pulleys) as an unfortunate evil; it can be your friend.


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## murphy (15 Dec 2016)

Thank's for that information Sploo
I have just got the motor ( it works great thank's Colin) and have to do some trial runs yet, I should get the speed controller today, getting a v pulley for this motor is not so easy as it's a 8mm shaft and I am having trouble getting one online, I can get 3D printer pulleys which are 8mm bore and require a different grooved belt but then I can't find a pulley with 19mm bore to match, still working on that, I have decided to use 19mm steel bar for the feed rollers and have covered them with self adhesive velcro and velcro sandpaper like the main drum, I wanted to keep them small to give acess to the main drum for changing the sandpaper, the drum is a 5 inch x 20 inch steel drum I got on ebay a few years ago, I am putting springs in as shown in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH_w6zQcvS4 the torque and speed of the motor without any pulleys is fine, so it will have to be trial and error when I find some pulley's


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## murphy (20 Dec 2016)

I have wired up the motor and battery charger for a trial run and unfortunately the motor has nowhere near enough torque to cope with the 2 feed rollers alone, without feeding any wood, so it will have to be an AC motor, as I said before I have a spare motor on an old Ferm scrool saw which is 90watt and was planning on using that, with this- http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/7480832/ does anyone know if this will work, it says suitable for up to 4kw but I am not sure if the motor is induction or brush, or if that matters, this is some of the info they sent me -DESCRIPTION
These variable phase-angle regulators are robust, compact and enclosed units for 230V or 110V up to 15A single phase
mains driven inductive loads, such as induction motors, fans and pumps. They give fully adjustable voltage outputs from
zero to maximum.


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## murphy (23 Dec 2016)

I tried that and it did not work either, and yet there are people selling these speed controllers which do not work, or am I missing something, so I emailed Haydock converters who supplied a new 2hp motor for my lathe with a speed genie a few years ago, which works great, a bit expensive but it works, this is part of the reply I got-- It is near impossible to achieve variable speed with single phase motors, the design of the motor windings mean it is hard to stop the motor from stalling and also the 
current ends up rising to very high levels.

We can make you a similar sort of set up if you wish, from single phase we can go from 0.2kw up to 2.2kW.
so at least now I know, I am waiting for them to get back to me with a price.
I also have been looking at used treadmills on E bay, I need to do some more research on that


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## Walney Col (24 Dec 2016)

murphy":loc8g1u5 said:


> I have wired up the motor and battery charger for a trial run and unfortunately the motor has nowhere near enough torque to cope with the 2 feed rollers alone, without feeding any wood.


Wow. That does surprise me. Any chance of you uploading photos or your rollers and drive train? I've just uploaded a short video of the same motor running on 24v and it bags of torque and speed for my purposes without even getting to a 30% duty cycle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1PlkP_NnKI&t=2s

Col.


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## murphy (28 Dec 2016)

Thank's Col
Great work on the router lathe and the video's, have you got your workshop in your living room, I will try and upload some photos later today, what are you using to get 24v supply and what is the 30% duty cycle, I am using a 12v battery charger, the prices of variable speed motors and speed genie from Hadock converters are 0.5hp=£355 and 1hp=£450 they are a bit expensive, but I have one on my lathe and it works great, I am not sure if the treadmill motors idea and speed control would work it might be more electronic work than I can handle


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## Walney Col (28 Dec 2016)

Hi Murphy.
I have a small shed I use a lot in summer but my health is such that even getting out to it is a daunting prospect so yes, the boss is letting me do most of it in the house. 

This is the 24v power supply I'm using... £11.95 including postage from ebay:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252561034566? ... EBIDX%3AIT

A DC motor speed controller always drives the motor at it's maximum voltage but that voltage is continually flicked on and off to vary the speed the motor turns at. The 30% duty cycle I referred to means that (in that case) the motor was off for 70% of the time and on for only 30% of the time. The on/off sequence occours many (MANY) times per second and turning the duty cycle up simply shortens the length of time it's turned OFF for to (eventually) zero... while turning it down shortens the length of time it's turned ON for to (eventually) zero.

The controllers for DC treadmill motors do exactly the same thing using the same method and are no more difficult to wire up than the low voltage ones we've been playing with. The biggest problem being that with higher voltage and current comes higher cost and a much higher risk of damage or injury if anything goes badly wrong. 

Hope that all helps. 

Col.


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## murphy (28 Dec 2016)

Thank's Col
I might as well get that 24v power supply as it is so cheap, I doubt if it will do what want but I will use it for something else, an electrician friend has sent me this link as he has been looking for a motor for me http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-MOTO ... B#viTabs_0 what do you think of that.
I am enclosing a few photos so you get an idea of what I am doing, the rollers are spring loaded and move freely, but the 12v supply will not even turn one on its own, I think I will replace the pulleys and belt with sprockets and chain, the bearings are slightly bigger than the shaft collars so the whole lot moves freely, the 2 bolt heads you can see in the center are for bolting the main sanding drum which is 5" x 20" drum


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## Walney Col (28 Dec 2016)

I'd describe the motor you linked to as overkill but there can't be any doubt that it'd definately do what you want, and for what it is the price seems reasonable too.
Regarding your setup I'd say that those tiny pulleys and clunky belts (which would have to be very tight in order to get a decent amout of traction going) would seem to be a big part of your probem. Larger diameter pulleys and a plain belt always require far less torque to operate - but since you mention it I'd recommend you go with chain anyway since for the most part they can run as relaxed as you like and still transmit plenty of power.

Col.


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## murphy (29 Dec 2016)

Thank's Col
you have been a great help, sorry to hear about your health problem, but it will soon be spring again, you have a great and very understanding wife.
Pat


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## murphy (21 Jan 2017)

I have been working on this as much as I can and have changed the pulleys to sprockets and chain, and with the motor I mentioned earlier http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-MOTO ... 023541276t ( I got a 0.5 HP for about £8 more) and it seem to work fine, I have also used sprockets and chain for the rise and fall table, 
I have just noticed that the kitchen worktop offcut that I am using as a feed table has a slight dip in the middle which is enough to cause problems, so today I will make a new one from 2 layers of 18mm plywood glued together, I have had a few trial runs with the worktop in place and noticed I am getting snipe on the first 3-4 inches which I need to sort out, I will post some pictures next week, I have found this which is over 30 years old but still good for some ideas, it explains how to adjust the feed table to the drum, and other ideas which someone making their own might find helpful, he runs both off the same motor and feeds in the same dirsction ? http://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdffr ... .54-57.pdf
Pat


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## pete1234 (22 Jan 2017)

murphy":9iwji56l said:


> I have been working on this as much as I can and have changed the pulleys to sprockets and chain, and with the motor I mentioned earlier http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-MOTO ... 023541276t ( I got a 0.5 HP for about £8 more) and it seem to work fine, I have also used sprockets and chain for the rise and fall table,
> I have just noticed that the kitchen worktop offcut that I am using as a feed table has a slight dip in the middle which is enough to cause problems, so today I will make a new one from 2 layers of 18mm plywood glued together, I have had a few trial runs with the worktop in place and noticed I am getting snipe on the first 3-4 inches which I need to sort out, I will post some pictures next week, I have found this which is over 30 years old but still good for some ideas, it explains how to adjust the feed table to the drum, and other ideas which someone making their own might find helpful, he runs both off the same motor and feeds in the same dirsction ? http://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdffr ... .54-57.pdf
> Pat




Nice set of plans in that link, great information for someone considering building one of these


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## Lons (22 Jan 2017)

i'll be watching with interest as I've been seriously looking over the last few weeks. Tempted to buy a little Jet 10-20 but put off a bit by the £750 price tag when it looks a simple machine to make. I've already got the bearings, motor and shaft as well as a length of 110mm soil pipe which should I hope make a decent drum.

I have seen an example on youtube which has feed rollers on both sides but are activated by a hand wheel rather than motor which has to be better than pushing through with your fingers and feed speed easily controllable.

Bob


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## bernienufc (22 Jan 2017)

I will throw this into the mix as it might help someone in the future.
A lot of DIY shops are closing around the country and the equipment for mixing paint can be old but it works, most of it is just scrapped on return to those who supplied it initially (shall we say Crown, Dulux PPG etc). One of these items is a paint shaker, used to mix 1-4 tins of paint after tinting, you see them in the sheds too, the motor on these i have used to build my own drum sander, the motor is strong enough as it has to move up to 30kg of paint up and down and it also spins at a speed sensible enough not to shake things to pieces.

It is known that it is asked to the shop owner if he has a nearby scrap yard to take some of the items to save the trouble of collecting them just to be scrapped, so if you hear of a local store being closed or even in some cases with bigger stores if their equipment is being upgraded get them to ask their supplier if you can have the old shaker, you just never know , If you get the whole item you get all the bearings belts and pulleys too.

Malc


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## Lons (22 Jan 2017)

Good idea Malc, wish I'd known that when the B&Q in Ashington closed down.

Good result for for the toon yesterday =D> obviously your club as well. Where are you btw? I'm just outside Morpeth.

Bob


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## bernienufc (22 Jan 2017)

Lons":3pz6lbaz said:


> Good idea Malc, wish I'd known that when the B&Q in Ashington closed down.
> 
> Good result for for the toon yesterday =D> obviously your club as well. Where are you btw? I'm just outside Morpeth.
> 
> Bob



Haltwhistle, not too far if you want a motor  

Yes good result


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## Lons (22 Jan 2017)

bernienufc":26frotsg said:


> Lons":26frotsg said:
> 
> 
> > Good idea Malc, wish I'd known that when the B&Q in Ashington closed down.
> ...



Thanks will bear that in mind Malc, I do occasionally get across to Hexham.
I'm holding fire on the build as there might be a chance of a good s/h Jet 10-20 I could be tempted by. There's a big hole in my workshop now after selling my Robland p/t and Axi morticer. :wink:


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## murphy (25 Jan 2017)

Right it's almost finished, I am adding some photos and will post some more if anyone wants them please let me know. I have made some covers for the chains and belt, everything seems to be working good so I will try it for a while and see if it needs any adjustments, the steel bar I used for the rollers is 19mm and covered with rubber hose which I got here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271267462833? ... EBIDX%3AIT
Pat


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