# DADO ADVICE



## bramers (12 May 2006)

CAN I ASK FOR A FEW TIPS ON DADO USING, PLEASE, NO FUNNY ANSERS  :?  

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF ARBOR YOU NEED TO COME THROUGH, I JUST RAN A DADO THROUGH MDF AND IT WAS 18MM WIDE AND THERE WAS 1MM OF ARBOR LEFT IS THAT  OR  :?: 

JUST POST SOME GOOD IDEAS AND SOME INFO THAT CAN HELP ME CUT GOOD AND SAFE D'S

THANKS


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## mr (12 May 2006)

..


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## martyn2 (12 May 2006)

Is the 1mm after you have got the locking nut hand tight or are you saying you have 1mm befor the nut is on ?

Martyn


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## Alf (12 May 2006)

bramers":18orp1wl said:


> NO FUNNY ANSERS  :?


Spoilsport...


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## bramers (12 May 2006)

1mm when she is all done up


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## LyNx (12 May 2006)

Alf, you missed the typo, he said


> NO FUNNY ANSERS Very Happy Confused Sad




..not "no funny ANSWERS!!!" - leaves the window open in my book



I would say that it's up tight, then 1mm is more or less the same as 3-4mm - but i could be wrong here.

Andy


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## martyn2 (12 May 2006)

Same as Andy the nut will tighten as the blades turn so no problem I have the 802 and its almost the same for me and I have had no problems up to now :!: "touch wood"  

Martyn


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## Scrit (12 May 2006)

[-(


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## cutting42 (12 May 2006)

Scrit":4qng6gf0 said:


> [-(



Hi Scrit etc

Is that a No then  

I am in the same position as bramers and have a dado set on order for my 805 saw. I would very much like to know to what the potential dangers are in using stacked dado sets are and how to best use them as safely as possible. It all seems so easy on NYW :? 

It is clear that the standard riving knife and guard assembly cannot be used when cutting a dado but can other guards be used. I assume the other area of risk is the fact that there are more saw blades in contact with the wood thereby increasing the risk of kickback. 

I would also appreciate any advice on this as like bramers and others here I am sure have not been around woodworking long enough to hear the historical reasons why dados have such a bad press. I have done a bit of a search and seen lots of opinions for and against but not why?

TIA


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## Newbie_Neil (12 May 2006)

Hi Gareth

Why bother with a dado blade in your saw, when you can make a jig for your router and cut perfect dadoes in no time?

Just my 2p.

Cheers
Neil


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## Barry Burgess (12 May 2006)

Newbie_Neil":1zw064l0 said:


> Hi Gareth
> 
> Why bother with a dado blade in your saw, when you can make a jig for your router and cut perfect dadoes in no time?
> 
> ...


I cut all my dados with a router but it is far more time consuming when compared to Norm doing it with a dado cutter. I find running them through the router table I get better results doing it twice. 
If the guru Scrit came up with a safe way of using a dado cutter I would be very tempted to buy a 805.


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## LyNx (12 May 2006)

> If the guru Scrit came up with a safe way of using a dado cutter I would be very tempted to buy a 805.



If Scrit thinks like me, i don't think there will be a safe way


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## johnelliott (12 May 2006)

The only grooves or trenches I cut on the cabinets I make are for the 6mm or 6.5mm backs. Even if I had a dado cutter, and was unconcerned about the safety issues, I would still use a router for this job, because it would be quicker than changing the blade in the table saw.

Presumably when these programmes are made, the time taken to change the blade over is edited out

John


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## Scrit (12 May 2006)

johnelliott":3202eoj0 said:


> Presumably when these programmes are made, the time taken to change the blade over is edited out


I'll bet it is. You can spend ages faffing around with shims and still be a cats whisker out. The best solution I've seen to this is the Dial-a-Width type approach taken by Freud with their SD600 series dado heads



cutting42":3202eoj0 said:


> It is clear that the standard riving knife and guard assembly cannot be used when cutting a dado but can other guards be used. I assume the other area of risk is the fact that there are more saw blades in contact with the wood thereby increasing the risk of kickback.


Got it in one! Guarding is probably the biggest single problem. If you are using the dado head to produce a rebate at the edge of a work piece it should be relatively straightforward to add a top Shaw guard mechanism like this:







to the machine in order to apply downwards pressure AND act as a safety guard. A commercial overhead guard, such as the American Brett guard






provides adequate overhead guarding if properly adjusted, but _*fails singularly*_ to address the need for downwards pressure. A Shaw guard on the other hand will overcome any tendency for the piece to tip or be accidentally lifted from the rear by the saw operator and be caught on the rising teeth (which is one thing that causes a kickback). A power feeder would achieve pretty much the same result. For narrower pieces where there may be difficulty in holding the work in against the fence a Shaw guard with a side pressure plate should be used:






or alternatively feather boards added for side pressure. 

Note that to install the Shaw guard properly it should either be bolted to the top of the saw bench, or if mounted on the rip fence then the rip fence will need to be of a design, such as the fore and aft locking style used on older Wadkins and Startrites, that it cannot be lifted in the event of a kickback. Trade rated saws which were designed to be used with dado heads, such as the Wadkin PP and PK, tend to have heavy cast iron rip fence frames which are securely locked onto a 40 or 50mm diameter solid steel bar. Another thing you need to do is select timbers with no major knots and make sure thare are no cracks or voids (reasons two and three for kickback with a stacked dado head). But the fact that a stacked dado saw head is not an anti-kickback design means that there will always be some inherent risk of kickback (and is the thing which effectively outlaws them in trade shops as a general-use tool - they simply don't meet current tooling/guarding regs). Scheppach/Kity actually have a head for their machines which is rather like a spindle moulder cutter block and is inherrently less likely to kickback, even without a Shaw guard in place 






_Above: The Scheppach 7986 2000 Adjustable groove cutter for use on Schepach TS series saws. Allows 5 to 9.8mm wide grooves to be cut, the larger 6320 8100 cutter allows 8 to 15mm wide grooves to be cut_

and they recommend using a crown guard on a boom arm (the so-called SUVA guard after the Swiss insurance safety test laboratory which specified it) when using these cutters.

_Below: Scheppach 5460 1100 SUVA Guard_






Scheppach aren't the only people with this type of approach, Felder/Hammer offer a couple of anti-kickback spindle-moulder type groove cutters available for use on their saws, designed for use with an overhead (SUVA-type) guard, however they are fixed groove width design.

The biggest problem, however, comes when you want to use a stacked dado head the produce a through housing in the middle of a piece, such as you would require for a bookcase. Here it becomes almost impossible to guard adequately so that the top of the blade is covered AND provide downwards pressure. It would require some form of boom mechanism with a wide Shaw guard mounted on it and I can see problems in building that - getting enough clearance and sufficient rigidity into the structure to resist a kickback would probably require it to be ceiling mounted. Perhaps someone can come up with an alternative design such as a crosscut carraige with clamping and top guards where the travel can be limited?

It is for this reason that I and others regard a radial arm saw and a dado head as a safer option for cutting through housings or trenching.

As yet I haven't mentioned the other problem with dado heads - braking. All modern table saws are designed with a motor brake, generally either mechanical or electronic (DC injection) which stops the blade rotation in under 10 seconds. With a stacked dado set there is a question about how you are going to lock that cutter set onto the arbor so that it won't move (nut unscrewing) under braking and in doing so inadvertently turn the chippers into the woodworking equivalent of Bruce Lee's ninja stars! At the very least a second nut, or lock nut, needs to be added to the arbor to reduce the risk of the one nut unscrewing itself under braking. It may also be found that the brake is totally ineffective when trying to brake the greater weight if the dado set. Take the brake off or disable it and (at least in a commercial shop) you again have an illegal saw. 



> I would also appreciate any advice on this as like bramers and others here I am sure have not been around woodworking long enough to hear the historical reasons why dados have such a bad press. I have done a bit of a search and seen lots of opinions for and against but not why?


Well that's about as positive as I can be, I'm afraid. I try to have respect for the machinery I use and my comments about limiter tooling are based very much on the experience I had of sticking a thumb into a large diameter cutter on a pin router - being a limiter cutter my thumb was thrown out (not before getting 20+ lacerations), non-limiter tooling such as the dado head will tend to draw fingers, etc in and generate hamburger - the sort of stuff that can't be sewn back on or stitched up, like a circular saw blade only worse. Remember that before using one.

Apologies to those who's derriers are now bored off by the whole subject  .....

Scrit


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## Barry Burgess (12 May 2006)

Thankyou very much Scrit for the advice


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## cutting42 (12 May 2006)

Scrit":5qln2ot3 said:


> Apologies to those who's derriers are now bored off by the whole subject  .....



Scrit

Many thanks for a (very) well informed and balanced summary of the use of Dado blades, just what I needed and has made me think hard about using them.

I have tried using my router with very little success, probably down to my poor jig and the intense noise and the trashing of an expensive cutter in mdf. I will be making a Shaw top guard to lock into the RHS Mitre guide as a matter of course before using the Dado and the picture is excellent, thanks.

What a great resource this forum is.[/quote]


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## johnelliott (12 May 2006)

cutting42":39kz1ym2 said:


> I have tried using my router with very little success, probably down to my poor jig and the intense noise and the trashing of an expensive cutter in mdf.



I'm surprised to hear you have had problems cutting dados with a router, what exactly seems to be the problem?
There are a number of approaches possible for any particular width of dado required, perhaps if you gave us the numbers we could suggest something

John


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## cutting42 (12 May 2006)

Hi John

I was trying to cut 18mm wide by 9mm deep dados in 18mm mdf to build a simple tool cabinet set for the wksp. I had a part used CMT 18mm straight sided router bit in my router and screwed a straight length of mdf to the board as a guide. Progress was slow, noisy and I struggled to keep the cutter tracking straight despite sliding the router against the direction or rotation. I screwed in a second guide to stop this and then and I think the cutter must have overheated as it would not cut as well as before and was discoloured.

I did finish the job but watching Norm use the Dado blades made me think how much easier that would be which led me to the Xcaliber a805 and order for a stacked dado set and my question above.


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## Barry Burgess (12 May 2006)

johnelliott":3jfhcad3 said:


> [
> I'm surprised to hear you have had problems cutting dados with a router, what exactly seems to be the problem?
> There are a number of approaches possible for any particular width of dado required, perhaps if you gave us the numbers we could suggest something
> 
> John


Some of the problems are 
1. You are cutting a dado for 18mm Mdf or ply and using the 18mm cutter the fit is lose so you use a 1/2 cutter to do the job. To do a good cut you don't cut the 9mm debate in a single cut so you start at say a 4mm cut and then 9mm and then move the cutter to achieve the remaining 17/18mm of the cut. 
It requires pressure to be applied over the cutter to get the depth right - I use a Gripper to apply pressure over the cutter ( save the fingers) but most time I cut it twice to get the fit right. Feather boards don't work with the larger boards 
2. You want to cut the dado/trench 600mm to 1000mm from the end of the board - a pain with most router tables. 
3. supporting the larger boards on the router table - not a problem with a sliding table on the saw. 
4. Norm makes it look so easy 
Thanks 
barry


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## tibbs (12 May 2006)

Also - due to the direction of rotation, router cutters are always trying to pull the router to the left when the router is being used in hand held mode & viewed from above, so if youre running the router base against a guide board its important to have the guide board on the left of the router when pushing the router away from you. 

From your description, Gareth, it sounds as though you had the guide board on the other side of the router base & were having to fight with the router to force it back against the guide board all the time. The burning would have been due to moving the router too slowly through the MDF, probably partly because you were having to fight with it, and partly because it sounds like you were trying to take a full depth cut in one go.

Richard


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## Jake (12 May 2006)

Was it definitely a bottom cutting bit, rather than a trimming type of straight bit that doesn't have the cutter across the base?

That just doesn't sound right at all.


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## cutting42 (13 May 2006)

Hi All

Many thanks for the hints and tips. The cutter was a bottom cutting one (I did have the same thought when the probs first occurred and double checked. I was trying the "bite" the whole 9x18 dado in one hit which sounds pretty much like the biggest mistake. This also was a handheld router cut as I have no router table yet, one of many items I will get at some point.

I willl try again, once again thanks for the tips, all taken on board.

So much to learn


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## Kane (13 May 2006)

Scrit that's the best description of the problems/dangers of using dado cutters that I've seen since getting back into woodwork as a Norm wannabe - much more useful than some of the "don't do it 'cos I say so" comments - any chance of a moderator stickying it (we all know how many hits dadoing gets )


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## Scrit (13 May 2006)

Can I be a pedant and make a plea for the use of the English terms "rebate" and "through housing"? I know we refer to the tooling as a dado head (why?) but look in any English textbook and you won't see the joint it cuts referred a "dado" to my knowledge

Scrit


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## Sgian Dubh (13 May 2006)

I'm with you on this nomenclature thing Scrit. I find I'm getting a bit tired of seeing people talking about rabbets and dado's and other Americanisms in UK forums: particularly when many using the term dado aren't talking about a dado (housing or trench) at all, but are describing a groove, channel or slit. 

That Knock-it-Out-Nail-Gun-Norm hack and the invidious influence of his shows with their generally cavalier attitude to safe working practices has a lot to answer for. Slainte.


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## Jake (13 May 2006)

Sgian Dubh":2cjvqiao said:


> That Knock-it-Out-Nail-Gun-Norm hack and the invidious influence of his shows with their generally cavalier attitude to safe working practices has a lot to answer for. Slainte.



Hear, hear.

Still, his work is a bit better than Handy Andy's.


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## Colin C (13 May 2006)

Jake":sadnlpbe said:


> Hear, hear.
> 
> Still, his work is a bit better than Handy Andy's.



Mods tell him, he is swearing again [-(


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## johnelliott (13 May 2006)

Sgian Dubh":2u9gx1rv said:


> I'm with you on this nomenclature thing Scrit. I find I'm getting a bit tired of seeing people talking about rabbets and dado's and other Americanisms in UK forums



Well said, that was actually a thread about 'shop vacs' recently (I think it was actually about workshop vacuums)

John


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## Dicky (13 May 2006)

Martyn, I have a concern about the statement you made about the nut tightening during use. I think you'll find that the nut actually UNTIGHTENS in use, albeit unnoticable!

Dicky


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## Kane (13 May 2006)

Fair comment on the woodwork terms - but how are people supposed to know which are american terms and which apply to the UK? Surely the important thing is that people are taking up tools and making thing? The last thing I'd want to see is someone being put off by criticisms of the terms he/she uses.


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## Scrit (13 May 2006)

Kane":1ps8t8kc said:


> Fair comment on the woodwork terms - but how are people supposed to know which are American terms and which apply to the UK? Surely the important thing is that people are taking up tools and making thing? The last thing I'd want to see is someone being put off by criticisms of the terms he/she uses.


Well, they could always try reading an _English_ book or two...... :shock: You know, one of those paper things with black squiggles on them. :wink: And whilst we are on the subject, young Brammers, the word is "advi*c*e"

Scrit


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## NeilO (13 May 2006)

bramers wrote


> CAN I ASK FOR A FEW TIPS ON DADO USING, PLEASE, NO FUNNY ANSERS
> 
> I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF ARBOR YOU NEED TO COME THROUGH, I JUST RAN A DADO THROUGH MDF AND IT WAS 18MM WIDE AND THERE WAS 1MM OF ARBOR LEFT IS THAT OR
> 
> ...



Firstly, I know my cheap power tools are loud, but you dont have to shout :lol: 

Secondly, Thankyou Scrit a most informative post on the use of Dado cutters..

Thirdly, i would agree with Newbe_Neil on the use of templates and a Router.

but in the great scheme of things, each to his (or her) own.


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## Woody Alan (13 May 2006)

I like to see correct spelling as much as the next man who does... ermm like to see it, and if I knew what it was, I like to see good grammar. I also like to think that as long as whoever it is, gets their message across, then the point of the forum is acheived. If we are to act as "english" teachers we put ourselves on too high (or should that be higher, no) a pedestal, from which we can only fall. 

Bramers that would be Bramers with one "m" makes up for it in enthusiasm and that's what counts.  We are dealing with the subject of wood and it's abuse, after all. Not the abuse of the english language. 

Cheers Alan


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## Scrit (13 May 2006)

OK, then, define a "planer" or a "moulder" (machines) - there is a potentially misleading difference between what an American and an English-speaker means by the terms. If you want to describe something accurately, you need to know the nomenclature, that's all, dude :lol: 

Scrit


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## cutting42 (14 May 2006)

Scrit":2bdicrc8 said:


> OK, then, define a "planer" or a "moulder" (machines) - there is a potentially misleading difference between what an American and an English-speaker means by the terms. If you want to describe something accurately, you need to know the nomenclature, that's all, dude :lol:
> 
> Scrit



I agree with Scrit here, I think there is a difference between getting a technical term correct or at least relevant to the local audience and general grammar and spelling.

However Netiquette generally dictates that posters should not criticise spelling/grammar unless this makes the meaning unclear or the forum/topic in question is about spelling and grammar! This is typically because the nature of the online experience is of a rapid written note or comment where typo’s and general errors are not important to the topic notwithstanding the outstanding pieces of copy written by Scrit here and by many others which are a pleasure to read.

I work for an American company and after 21 years of trying to get them to speak and spell correctly :wink: have realised it is a pointless exercise :lol: :lol: :lol: Also we adopt a huge number of words and phrases from America in normal non-woodworking life therefore it comes as no surprise that the US woodie terms transfer as well. Most of my recent woodworking education so far has come from forums and TV programmes where the terms shop, dado, housing, rebate, rabbit??? for a few examples are all used interchangeably.

Netiquette also says that typing in CAPS is regarded as "shouting" and should not be used unless you do wish to shout at someone, and anyway this is regarded as rude in real life as well. Please do not take offence at this Bramers as it was news to me when I first started and just want to make sure you knew as well. I equally know how easy it is to hit the Caps Lock key whilst typing and send a stream of capitals by mistake.


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## Kane (14 May 2006)

Scrit":2mzl1zxb said:


> Kane":2mzl1zxb said:
> 
> 
> > Fair comment on the woodwork terms - but how are people supposed to know which are American terms and which apply to the UK? Surely the important thing is that people are taking up tools and making thing? The last thing I'd want to see is someone being put off by criticisms of the terms he/she uses.
> ...



Lol yes I remember books - they're those things that come with .pdf on the end of the file name :lol:


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## Alf (14 May 2006)

cutting42":1am14bgq said:


> rabbit???


Rabbet... :-$ 8-[ Sorry; generally I do try and steer clear of this sort of thing, but even the 'Murricans chuckle when some spells it that way. 

On the subject of correcting English, is not Steve Maskery an example to us all? Don't do it unless you're up for being corrected about every little slip you make for ever afterwards... :wink: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf

Who was making a housing (or maybe a trench?) with a combination plane set up - as per instructions - for dadoing. Seemed to work just the same.


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## Scrit (14 May 2006)

After the meanderings, at length, about the vaguaries of netiquette and the (ab)use of our native tongue, can I bring this back on topic (another no no, going off topic...... :roll: ) with this?







Sorry for the poor quality and errors, but it's my very first attempt at Sketchup and I think it conveys the general impression. I'm sure I'll improve in time........ :? . The basic concept is similar to a crosscut carraige - a wide "channel" section running on a bar which fits into the mitre slots. The top section would need to be something like 6 to 10mm acrylic or polycarbonate secured to the fore and aft fences. The differences would be:

- the addition of a cross guard. I reckon that you need one of these anyway to avoid potential contact with an exposed saw blade

- that there would need to be some sort of hold-down mechanism for the stock, say a pair of toggle cramps or cam cramps

- that there would need to be some sort of limiter stop so that it is not possible to push the jig so far across the saw bench that the blade was exposed at the end of the clear "tunnel"

- that there would nee to be some form of sacrificial insert in the aft fence to act as a sort pf zero clearance insert to reduce spelching

The idea is in its infancy. Anyone care to comment?

Scrit


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## Kane (14 May 2006)

I've no real problem with using the correct words it just seems to become a way to exclude rather than include (not having a go at anyone here but I've seen it on a lot of boards) and just because most peoples exposure to woodworking comes through an american program doesn't mean people should be belittled for using what, to some, is incorrect terminology - if you care that much put a warming on the board saying "British terminology only" or add a glossary as required reading.


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## mr (14 May 2006)

Id much prefer that people cared sufficiently to spell correctly. If your spelling is that bad use a spellchecker. I can live with American terminology if I must. To be honest I couldnt / wasnt prepared to invest the effort to read past the first line of Bramers original post in this thread.


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## RogerS (14 May 2006)

mr":3gg7znet said:


> Id much prefer that people cared sufficiently to spell correctly. If your spelling is that bad use a spellchecker. I can live with American terminology if I must. To be honest I couldnt / wasnt prepared to invest the effort to read past the first line of Bramers original post in this thread.



or missing punctuation marks :wink: :lol:


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## RogerS (14 May 2006)

aldel":qow0ef9r said:


> I some times get aggressive emails about terms and spelling from American readers of my WoodRat site,



What incredible arrogance! Presumably they also complain to the owners of websites written in French, German etc.

Here's a few more

Boot trunk
petrol gasoline
fag (UK slang for cigarette) US slang for homosexual
rubber eraser or US slang for contraceptive


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## bramers (14 May 2006)

i have been working alot recently and have just had a minute to catch up, i have read the past page of post's and just laughed    

i had know idea that caps lock could have such an infuluence.

i was only typing up an essay for college and was writting the header of a sub title and then i thought about d's and just quickly wrote a post about it. 

it had no meaning what so ever, and i can't belive how :twisted: some can get over CAPS LOCK, 

i feel afraid to use it, maybe i sould get a screw driver and pop it out of the keyboard  

dont worry about caps, worry about what wood and what tool you are going to buy next


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## Scrit (14 May 2006)

Sgian - now see what you've started........ :lol: 

Bramers - any chance of some feedback - good, bad or indifferent about the gist of the on topic stuff? :roll: 

Anyone - someone like to shoot me down, or at least afford me a critique of the last post I did? :roll: 

Scrit


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## Alf (14 May 2006)

Scrit":2ou7s4mb said:


> Anyone - someone like to shoot me down, or at least afford me a critique of the last post I did? :roll:


I'm still trying to work out how it'd fit on my #46... :wink: Seriously though, not being a tablesaw (saw bench?  ) user I couldn't say.

Cheers, Alf


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## bramers (14 May 2006)

well i have used the dado for a few tasks now and i can only say that it is brilliant, i dont want to anoy anyone but that is my opinion, i wear all the ppe and use feather boards and push sticks, havent had any probs.

also that was in mahogany and beech.

i watched norm this morning and it was and old one, he had a wobble in the saw and that made me jump up inside  

i would certanly not use a wobble blade but have nothing bad to say about the D.

if i get scared i just stop and think how can i do that and still play my £ 400 guitar tonight  

big B


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## Noel (14 May 2006)

Hi Scrit, it's just a regular cross cut sled.

The block on the rear limits travel and stops exposure of the blade although a clamped baton or chain / cable as well as the block would be safer for the less confident user. But with use it's pretty easy to realize when the cut has been completed.







Noel


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## Scrit (14 May 2006)

bramers":2c1j14jf said:


> well i have used the dado for a few tasks now and i can only say that it is brilliant, i dont want to anoy anyone but that is my opinion, i wear all the ppe and use feather boards and push sticks, havent had any probs.
> 
> also that was in mahogany and beech.


You may wear the "PPE", but do you guard the blade? A dust mask and ear defenders won't save your fingers from amputation. A guard probably will, which I thought was the purpose of this thread. 

As for mahogany, it cuts like butter. Beech isn't that hard either. Try it on iroko and see it that doesn't scare you :evil: 



Noel":2c1j14jf said:


> Hi Scrit, it's just a regular cross cut sled.


Well, as a proper panel saw user of many, many years I wouldn't know...... And in that case why is it that Super Norm (and many other American wood butchers) don't use them? (crosscut sleds, that is)



Noel":2c1j14jf said:


> The block on the rear limits travel and stops exposure of the blade although a clamped baton or chain / cable as well as the block would be safer for the less confident user. But with use it's pretty easy to realize when the cut has been completed.


I think that there are a couple of other issues here, though, Noel. You absolutely need a limiter block at the rear to stop the rig before the blade becomes visible. Basing it on judgement isn't a safe approach, especially if you have a trip. :shock: The second thing missing from the cross cut jig is any form of hold-down which may or may not be a necessity depending on the depth/width of the trench. I've sometimes felt the radial arm saw "snaking" as it tries to climb cut when deep trenching. That probably translates into a latent kickback in saw bench terms so there needs to be some sort of mechanism to limit this.

Scrit


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## Philly (14 May 2006)

Scrit
Where do you get the "soft" beech from?? The only beech I ever get is rock hard :lol: 
Noels' crosscut box does have a stop built in-a simple addition.
As to Yanks using cross-cut carriages, they are pretty common (if the US magazines are anything to go by) You would enjoy Kelly Mehlers DVD on table saws-he is more safety conscious than you :wink: Well, nearly :lol: 

Brahmers
Glad you got on well with your dado-as long as you work within your limits of what feels safe you should be o.k.
Cheers
Philly


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## Scrit (14 May 2006)

Nah! Beech is pretty soft against some of the stuff out there..... try oak, teak or iroko and you'll see what I mean :lol: 

I'd say it is a medium hardness timber and machines quite well because the grain is normally fairly straight. Only time I have trouble with it is end grain cutting where it can have a tendency to scorch - just like sycamore and maple.

Scrit


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## johnelliott (14 May 2006)

bramers":30dclflo said:


> i had know idea that caps lock could have such an infuluence.
> 
> i was only typing up an essay for college and was writting the header of a sub title and then i thought about d's and just quickly wrote a post about it.
> 
> ...



I think you will find that writing posts in all upper case on _any_ forum will not go down too well. If you are worried about unintentionally using the 'CAPS LOCK' key then looking at what you have written on the screen before you post it will let you know if you need to correct it or not.
Some keyboards have a warning light that comes on if the CAPS LOCK is in operation.

John


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## Colin C (14 May 2006)

If you think Beech is hard try Wenge, Palm or Yew ( very hard ) and you will see what Srit means


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## bramers (14 May 2006)

Calm yourself's, im only explaning to you not proving anything.

Especially you Scrit, i am not being nasty but i am only here to learn good practise, not be given an English lesson with Mrs smith.

great if thats your thing but taking up two pages about it is mad.

if you want me to learn don't give me " ear protection wont save your pinkys" that turns me away when you could be helping.

thanks for the interest :norm: he,he,he

i must add, norm always says every time " and make sure all saftey gaurds are in place" (or somthing along that line) he never uses one when it would be ideal. anyway thats his prerogative.


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## Barry Burgess (14 May 2006)

Philly I want to put you on the spot - you are a user of a Dado head cutter in your saw - what are you doing about safety and what are your experiences with kickbacks and near misses with your fingers??
You have more experience than most with the dado cutter so your comments would be valuable to this discussion


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## Barry Burgess (14 May 2006)

The crosscut sled would be of no use to me doing trenches or rebates of 600mm to 800mm or more


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## Midnight (14 May 2006)

> OK, then, define a "planer" or a "moulder" (machines) - there is a potentially misleading difference between what an American and an English-speaker means by the terms. If you want to describe something accurately, you need to know the nomenclature,



Och.... too easy... it's one o them heathen Normite woodmunchers innit...?? Nexttttttt.

:wink:


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## Philly (14 May 2006)

No problem, Barry.
I use the dado in my table saw, not a huge amount, but when appropriate. I have a shop-made guard that attaches to the fence when cutting close to the edge of a workspiece. If its a foot or more in I just use the fence to guide the piece through, no "safety" gear. (We are talking cabinet sides, really) If the dado is buried in the workpiece (except when entering/leaving) I have no problem with it.
As to kickback-never had ANY experiences with it. A regular blade, yes. The dado-no. The blade is cutting in line with the cut (as opposed to rotating the opposite direction, like a straight router bit) and it is a quiet, clean cut. No mess, multiple takes, jigs, etc. Just set the fence, depth of cut, turn on the vac and voila, job done in a few seconds, minimal noise and fuss.
I feel the majority of problems with dados in the UK are down to using them in saws that are NOT suitable. You need a heavy duty machine that is designed for it. It is quick to set up (not much longer than swapping saw blades), quiet (and that is a REAL benefit to most hobby woodworkers) clean (all the waste gets sucked away by the saws extraction) and you can cut it in one pass.
I would love for you to all pop by the workshop and see it in action. It is a REAL LET-DOWN. You just set it up and make the cut. No horror stories, no fuss. All UK dado users I have spoken to have said the same thing-you are expecting all sorts of terrible things to happen when you switch it on, fueled by Internet old womens tales. In the real world (well, mine :lol: ) it is a much more simple story.
So-bottom line. Used in a suitable saw, and within it's design application, a dado head is a useful tool in your workshop. You may not use it every day, every week, or even every month. But sometimes it is the best tool for the job.
Hope this is of help,
Philly  
_please note-this is my own personal opinion. Your safety is paramount-never perform an operation you feel is unsafe._


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## Midnight (14 May 2006)

> Anyone - someone like to shoot me down, or at least afford me a critique of the last post I did?



relax... I'm unarmed.. 

what you've drawn (nice job btw) looks pretty close to a jig that Taunton posted a video of a while back, the only differences I can see between the two are esthetic.. In the vid, the fore n aft fences had a distinct crown to them in their centre (no doubt designed to keep the rig intact when used with the blade at full height), and the rearmost (closest to the user) fence was a good few inches taller than its counterpart. A subsequent vid demonstrated how to ensure the rear fence ended up square to the sawn kerf... 

only reason I can think of to explain why Norm doesn't use one is his preference for suitable alternatives... chop saw, radial arm or mitre guage when using the table saw...


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## Scrit (14 May 2006)

bramers":1ifwyjuj said:


> I am not being nasty but i am only here to learn good practise.....
> 
> Great if thats your thing but taking up two pages about it is mad.
> 
> If you want me to learn don't give me " ear protection wont save your pinkys" that turns me away when you could be helping.


That seems to be a contradiction in terms. Perhaps if you want to have assistance you should re-read the earlier posts in the thread before the hi-jack, or was it that which was "mad"?

Scrit


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## Noel (14 May 2006)

Bramers, invest £15 in this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 07-3410203

Best investment you'll make.

Noel


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## PowerTool (14 May 2006)

I bought that,along with Lonnie Birds "Bandsaw book" - would recommend both of them (sensible,well-written books with excellent information and advice)

Andrew


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## Barry Burgess (14 May 2006)

Thanks Philly its got to be quicker than using a router table and with the table saw table you have more control with the bigger bits. I have found with a normal bade and the times that I have removed the guard I have resorted to used a "Gripper" and have not had kickbacks or put my fingers in danger.


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## cutting42 (14 May 2006)

Noel":7axeu43b said:


> Bramers, invest £15 in this:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 07-3410203
> 
> Best investment you'll make.
> ...



Not sure what Bramers will do but I just ordered one, looks great.

Also in addition, I would like to thanks scrit philly and many others on this thread for the (mostly! :lol: ) on topic and very calm and collected discussion on the creation of dados with some very useful suggestions and in particular guard suggestions.

My dado set should be with me in a day or so and I feel much better informed how to use it in a safe manner as much as possible.


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## neilc (15 May 2006)

Philly":16vr7juf said:


> No problem, Barry.
> I use the dado in my table saw, not a huge amount, but when appropriate. I have a shop-made guard that attaches to the fence when cutting close to the edge of a workspiece. If its a foot or more in I just use the fence to guide the piece through, no "safety" gear. (We are talking cabinet sides, really) If the dado is buried in the workpiece (except when entering/leaving) I have no problem with it.
> As to kickback-never had ANY experiences with it. A regular blade, yes. The dado-no. The blade is cutting in line with the cut (as opposed to rotating the opposite direction, like a straight router bit) and it is a quiet, clean cut. No mess, multiple takes, jigs, etc. Just set the fence, depth of cut, turn on the vac and voila, job done in a few seconds, minimal noise and fuss.
> I feel the majority of problems with dados in the UK are down to using them in saws that are NOT suitable. You need a heavy duty machine that is designed for it. It is quick to set up (not much longer than swapping saw blades), quiet (and that is a REAL benefit to most hobby woodworkers) clean (all the waste gets sucked away by the saws extraction) and you can cut it in one pass.
> ...



Very sensible reply Philly and sums up exactly my experience using my set. 
Neil


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## Alf (15 May 2006)

If it helps, I don't get kickback from my dado set either:





Cheers, Alf

Pursuing a policy of Patient Plane Promotion until you all jolly well give in... :wink:


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## Colin C (15 May 2006)

Now Alf , you can just stop show off 8-[  
( ducks and runs)


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## Scrit (15 May 2006)

Alf, what sort of feed rate do you get on that? Oh yes, and where's the lead? :shock: 

Scrit


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## Alf (15 May 2006)

Scrit":d7u5ajfk said:


> Alf, what sort of feed rate do you get on that?


Depends how many Shredded Wheat I've had.


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## Philly (15 May 2006)

Ha, nice Alf! :lol: 
Did I see Norm using one of those??
No, thought not :roll: 
Philly


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## Midnight (15 May 2006)

patience Philly patience... it's taking time but Norm's gradually seeing the light..


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## Philly (16 May 2006)

You know it, Mike! I'm still a bit shaky after watching him cut those dovetails by hand. :shock: 
Philly


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## Ian Dalziel (16 May 2006)

Scrit":oi6w1j74 said:


> Alf, what sort of feed rate do you get on that? Oh yes, and where's the lead? :shock:
> 
> Scrit



yep definately no sign of a lead.... :roll: :shock: 

I


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## Alf (16 May 2006)

Ian Dalziel":3hpi7x9x said:


> Scrit":3hpi7x9x said:
> 
> 
> > Alf, what sort of feed rate do you get on that? Oh yes, and where's the lead? :shock:
> ...


I'm sorry, but I absolutely refuse to take my planes out for "walkies"... [-( :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## tooold (11 Jan 2011)

This is my first post here - I found this old thread while looking for information on dado blades - it's very helpful.

One note on the US/UK terminology issue - I'm American, but I started doing woodworking here in France, where I moved after living eight years in the UK. One of the biggest issues I face (almost daily) is trying not only to understand the basics of woodworking, but to translate English terms into French, and then, even harder, US into UK English and vice versa. 

The English/French problem is difficult not only in terms of language, but because DIY culture barely exists in France - the feeling seems to be that you leave everything to professionals. But the UK/US issue is really hard - obviously there's a huge amount of books, DVD's, etc. that come from the US, while I usually end up getting tools, supplies, hardware, etc. from the UK. Also, for me, what I guess could be called the "US approach" to things often just seems to make more sense, but posts on UK woodworking forums are more relevant in terms of what I can get here.

I know that people in the UK often take a dim view of the US (putting it mildly - I've been verbally dressed down in public places in the UK several times simply because I'm American), but it seems like there's a lot of knowledge coming from both the US and the UK, and it would be a waste to lose any of it. There's no doubt a lot of slam-bang-done attitude in some US material, but there's also a lot of good as well.

So, I'd vote for dual-language! I'd love to find a US/UK woodworking term dictionary - anybody know if one exists?

Thanks to everyone for a very useful forum.


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## jimi43 (11 Jan 2011)

Welcome to the UKW board.

Many years ago I rebuilt an MG Midget from the ground up with a friend who was American. We had exactly the same problem with car (automobile) terminology.

One day, armed with a few beers, we sat down and wrote out all the bits of the car that differed and then spent a hilarious few hours discussing the merits of each.

We came to the conclusion that about 40% English words made sense, 40% US equivalents made sense and the remaining 20% we could make no sense of at all. It was hugely funny getting there though....and before the days of the Internet where derivations would have been easily available.

I think that woodworking is likely to bring up a similar discussion....one that might be fun putting up here for a game for all to play! How about we put the two differing words meaning the same thing up for comment and then let loose the brains of the forum?

Start with the thread you chose?

DADO (US/CANADIAN)
HOUSING (UK)
TRENCH (EUROPE)

Cheers

Jim


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## Alf (11 Jan 2011)

Good heavens, how one's past comes back to haunt you. The glory days of the almost daily dado debate. :lol: 

Might be worth starting a fresh thread; you'll have all the ancient members tripping off so far down Memory Lane with this one, they won't concentrate.


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## dickm (11 Jan 2011)

Alf":3ebxb76p said:


> The glory days of the almost daily dado debate. :lol:



.. and just when we thought it was as dead as a dado.

Sorry...........


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