# You know the world is moving fast when....



## billw (6 Jan 2021)

One of my credit cards just announced they're stopping the management of their cards using a web browser and the only way will be through a smartphone app.

Fine for me, but I can see this becoming a trend that is going to cause a lot of issues.


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## Argus (6 Jan 2021)

Some are going that way........
I think that Santander are that way inclined which cheesed me off as I was a shareholder at the time

............. the one thing that I lack in this part of the world is a mobile signal, so it wouldn't suit me.


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## NickVanBeest (6 Jan 2021)

Oh no! I hate doing stuff on the phone, the screen is way too small! I have a 28" screen in front of me, FFS!


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## pcb1962 (6 Jan 2021)

It's understandable, it's much easier for them to ensure that their app is operating within a secure environment on android/ios than it is on windows.


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## Sandyn (6 Jan 2021)

I don't like using my phone for the internet, just too small. Entering passwords is really awkward, trying to correct errors is awkward, most mistakes are from the predictive entry and spell checker. If these phones are so smart, why doesn't it know what I'm thinking?. I never use my phone for any financial transaction, I prefer Windows where I can control the security.


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## Spectric (6 Jan 2021)

Who actually believes Android is more secure than other OS's. Remember Android is open source and ruled by Google so how far can you really trust it.


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Jan 2021)

Banks were going to junk the use of cheques a couple of years ago. After it was pointed out to them that they were basically denying a service to people without mobile phones or internet access (still a few million people in the UK), they relented. Cheque services became noticably quicker and more streamlined, too.

An app-only card would be no use to me. I'd be asking my bank for a card that worked over the web if they changed the rules on mine - I still don't have a mobile phone, and don't really want one. If the bank still wants my business (and the business of people like me) it will have to provide services that suit me and others like me. 

Hard for them, maybe, but the more advanced technology gets, the more complicated life will get for all sorts of businesses - there will always be some customers wanting the latest tech, some who tag along a bit later, and some who doggedly stick to the old tried-and-trusted ways, and working out how to serve each, or whether they want to, will be part of managing each business.


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## Lons (6 Jan 2021)

Are you referring to the company started by a certain Mr Branson? I've been seriously considering dumping my credit card because of that as I prefer using my laptop and given the issues I've had lately with my iphone causing a major fall out with Apple I'm even more inclined not to download the app..


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## Rorschach (6 Jan 2021)

I find it easier to use apps for a fair bit of my banking but still need website use for some features. The apps are particularly handy for quick checks of balance, credit card purchases etc.


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## minilathe22 (6 Jan 2021)

Given that we can still use cheques as described above, and physical cash, I find it very hard to believe they would shutdown website access!


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## billw (6 Jan 2021)

minilathe22 said:


> Given that we can still use cheques as described above, and physical cash, I find it very hard to believe they would shutdown website access!



I genuinely couldn't tell you the last time I paid cash for anything! There's a cheque for £1.53 sitting on my desk, but the cost (time and effort) of paying it in is too much.


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## minilathe22 (6 Jan 2021)

I like to keep a bit of cash as an emergency, if my card bounces or the machine at a shop fails, its the only realistic fallback option. I agree cheques are a pain to receive, my bank doesn't have physical branches so I have no idea what I should do if I receive a cheque.


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## Lons (6 Jan 2021)

minilathe22 said:


> Given that we can still use cheques as described above, and physical cash, I find it very hard to believe they would shutdown website access!


As a Virgin Money credit card user I had advance notice at least a month ago, it's happening! Of course it isn't Virgin these days so others will follow.








Two million Virgin Money credit card holders forced to app banking - Your Money


Virgin Money credit card customers will need to download its app from January as it will withdraw the online service option due to “reduced interest”.




www.yourmoney.com


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## minilathe22 (6 Jan 2021)

Well I am amazed. I wonder if they will stick to it - surely keep the app up to date with the latest devices is more effort than keep the website running.


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## mikej460 (6 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> I genuinely couldn't tell you the last time I paid cash for anything! There's a cheque for £1.53 sitting on my desk, but the cost (time and effort) of paying it in is too much.


some banks have a cheque scanner on their mobile app now (e.g. Halifax) and it works really well, money is credited instantly. Not much use without a smart phone and signal though.


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## billw (6 Jan 2021)

mikej460 said:


> some banks have a cheque scanner on their mobile app now (e.g. Halifax) and it works really well, money is credited instantly. Not much use without a smart phone and signal though.



Just checked mine and no such luck


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## --Tom-- (7 Jan 2021)

pcb1962 said:


> It's understandable, it's much easier for them to ensure that their app is operating within a secure environment on android/ios than it is on windows.


Is client side security their concern though? 
I doubt it is this, I think it’s more likely to be streamlining their tech to not need to maintain both a website and app. Simple economies rather than security. With upcoming recession and anticipated increasing bad debt lending companies are looking to cut costs as far as possible to survive.


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## D_W (7 Jan 2021)

I think there's a sprinkle of them liking access to your data, but I could see the app environment significantly cutting back on Delhi scam houses.


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## TRITON (7 Jan 2021)

NickVanBeest said:


> Oh no! I hate doing stuff on the phone, the screen is way too small! I have a 28" screen in front of me, FFS!


Oh how quaint ... 42" here. Smashing for vids and gaming.


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## pe2dave (7 Jan 2021)

I laugh when (often young people) automatically assume you're on / use full time a recent smart phone.


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## alex_heney (7 Jan 2021)

minilathe22 said:


> Well I am amazed. I wonder if they will stick to it - surely keep the app up to date with the latest devices is more effort than keep the website running.


Not really.

There are only two main players - Android and iOS (the third - Fire OS - is a subset of one of those). They don't need to keep it up to date with devices, just with the OS, and those don't change all that often, only a few times a year.


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## artie (7 Jan 2021)

minilathe22 said:


> I have no idea what I should do if I receive a cheque.


I put mine in an envelope and pay them in at the Post office.

I think you can do that with most banks.


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## davedevelopment (7 Jan 2021)

alex_heney said:


> Not really.
> 
> There are only two main players - Android and iOS (the third - Fire OS - is a subset of one of those). They don't need to keep it up to date with devices, just with the OS, and those don't change all that often, only a few times a year.



I find it easier to manage our website than our apps, but we're not a bank.

I would be very dissatisfied if this were my provider, too many people try and do too much on their phones. Most would be better off with a phone half as powerful and a pc at home.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

pe2dave said:


> I laugh when (often young people) automatically assume you're on / use full time a recent smart phone.



Yeah but why don't you at least have a functioning smart phone? My mother even manages it and her 80yr old friend too.


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## Anthraquinone (7 Jan 2021)

> 42" here. Smashing for vids and gaming



I could not fit the three screens of that size onto my desk. I am feeling deprived  

As for mobile banking apps I trust the secrutiy on my PCs much more than on my phone. So far I have never installed a banking app on it.

AQ


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## selectortone (7 Jan 2021)

If it's Virgin Bank that's being referred to, I first received notice of this three months ago. I'm fine with the app. The fingerprint login is very convenient. I can't remember the last time I used the website. (I'm no spring chicken either - I'm 70.)


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Which bit of Virgin bank is it? I have a virgin current account and virgin savings accounts, they are completely separate businesses it seems, I can't access both part on the same website.


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## pe2dave (7 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Yeah but why don't you at least have a functioning smart phone? My mother even manages it and her 80yr old friend too.


Choice perhaps? I've little or no use for one, though I'm not 80 yet.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Choice perhaps? I've little or no use for one, though I'm not 80 yet.



Are you making a choice though? Genuinely curious as to your reasons.


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## pe2dave (7 Jan 2021)

Very clear choice on my part. Seeing others wandering the streets oblivious of all but their phones,
I want no part of it.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Very clear choice on my part. Seeing others wandering the streets oblivious of all but their phones,
> I want no part of it.



That's a very odd choice to make though. You clearly own a computer, plenty of people are obsessed with their computers and can't look away from them, that doesn't stop you owning a computer and making use of it's functionality.

I also want no part of being a phone obsessed person, but I still own a smart phone and make excellent use of it's features everyday. A smart phone is just another tool I own.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Yeah but why don't you at least have a functioning smart phone? My mother even manages it and her 80yr old friend too.


Probably like me he doesn't really need one and doesn't want to pay dearly for something he doesn't want or really need?

Another tool? Yes. But as much use to me as a marlinspike and a fid.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

TRITON said:


> Oh how quaint ... 42" here. Smashing for vids and gaming.



Isn't 28" considered a tablet these days?


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## Lons (7 Jan 2021)

It


Rorschach said:


> Which bit of Virgin bank is it? I have a virgin current account and virgin savings accounts, they are completely separate businesses it seems, I can't access both part on the same website.


It's only the credit card side so far, I also have savings accounts with Virgin Money and they aren't affected yet, if they do then I'll move my savings elsewhere.

The Virgin credit card has been my main card for a long time and I'm now deciding whether to switch those on to my Barclaycard and dump the Virgin one. I've had a series of iphones for many years but do my banking on line and have no intention of switching that to an app on my 'phone.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

I see it this way - if I have credentials that open access to my banking via a web browser, then anyone in the world with a web browser can access it. If it's only available on a smartphone, then they have to have my phone in front of them. Most banking apps don't allow multiple installs either, so trying to replicate your login details wouldn't work, and it requires you to receive a code on your phone anyway.

It is essentially much much more secure in terms of access in my eyes. Is iOS secure? Well Apple seem to be pretty hot at keeping it that way. I trust it a lot more than I would windows - I don't have to have malware, spyware, browser blocking software running 24/7 on my phone.

I run my entire life off my phone: 100% of my finances, messaging and email, bus times, doctor appointments and prescriptions, social media, university work, calendar, order food and groceries, couple of clicks to get stuff from Amazon or Ebay, hold my phone up to the sky to check what the aircraft flying overhead is, get a G&T straight to my table, order a cab, monitor my weight/blood pressure/heart rate/blood alcohol level/blood oxygen level/hearing/toothbrushing, it holds my bus pass and my loyalty cards, stores my boarding passes and train tickets, accesses my entire music library, it can tell me what song is playing on the radio or in a bar, assists me with meditation, check the football scores, place a bet on a match, book a class at the gym, and even phone people. I never phone people though.

All that in something that fits in the palm of my hand. I do often wonder how people cope without them.


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## Spectric (7 Jan 2021)

The government and HMRC are the big benefactors from a cashless society, once all transactions are credit/debit card, bank transfers and other electronic means they are in control and have even more data about us and could manipulate the markets.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Probably like me he doesn't really need one and doesn't want to pay dearly for something he doesn't want or really need?
> 
> Another tool? Yes. But as much use to me as a marlinspike and a fid.



Fair enough, but have you tried one? My mother didn't want one, now she loves it and finds it incredibly useful.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Lons said:


> It
> 
> It's only the credit card side so far, I also have savings accounts with Virgin Money and they aren't affected yet, if they do then I'll move my savings elsewhere.
> 
> The Virgin credit card has been my main card for a long time and I'm now deciding whether to switch those on to my Barclaycard and dump the Virgin one. I've had a series of iphones for many years but do my banking on line and have no intention of switching that to an app on my 'phone.



Ok thanks, I don't have a Virgin Credit card.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Fair enough, but have you tried one? My mother didn't want one, now she loves it and finds it incredibly useful.


I'd first need to find a problem I don't know I have that one would solve. My phone bill is about £3 a year.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I'd first need to find a problem I don't know I have that one would solve. My phone bill is about £3 a year.



I would say my mother doesn't spend an awful lot more than that, certainly under a fiver a year. Smart phones only cost money if you make a call or send a text, just like a normal mobile phone. Using wifi you can do almost everything on there including making free calls through apps like whatsapp. She sends messages (free), checks the weather, does her banking, looks up information, books restaurants (when you can lol), takes photos and videos of the grandchildren to share with her friends, uses loyalty apps when shopping for money off etc and uses the GPS feature to navigate sometimes as well (also free).


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## Bob Chapman (7 Jan 2021)

My computer sits safely on my desk at home. My phone is carried around with me (when I remember to put it in my pocket). The chances of losing or damaging my computer is negligible. There is also a very small (I hope!) risk of it being stolen. Not so for my phone though. It stands a much greater chance of loss, breakage or theft.
Quite apart from that, I HATE typing on my phone. Far too small to be useful.


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## Lons (7 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> I run my entire life off my phone: 100% of my finances, messaging and email, bus times, doctor appointments and prescriptions, social media, university work, calendar, order food and groceries, couple of clicks to get stuff from Amazon or Ebay, hold my phone up to the sky to check what the aircraft flying overhead is, get a G&T straight to my table, order a cab, monitor my weight/blood pressure/heart rate/blood alcohol level/blood oxygen level/hearing/toothbrushing, it holds my bus pass and my loyalty cards, stores my boarding passes and train tickets, accesses my entire music library, it can tell me what song is playing on the radio or in a bar, assists me with meditation, check the football scores, place a bet on a match, book a class at the gym, and even phone people. I never phone people though.
> 
> All that in something that fits in the palm of my hand. I do often wonder how people cope without them.


Good luck with that if you lose it or it suddenly breaks when you need urgent access Bill.
I know there are ways around it but I'm decidedly against keeping everything in one place. Not saying you're wrong just saying it's not for me.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Lons said:


> Good luck with that if you lose it or it suddenly breaks when you need urgent access Bill.
> I know there are ways around it but I'm decidedly against keeping everything in one place. Not saying you're wrong just saying it's not for me.



To be fair that applies to a lot of things, if you use a laptop for these things then you would be stuffed if something went wrong.

I changed my phone in 2018, it took me less than a hour to have everything sorted on the new phone, didn't need the old phone for that at all, it's all stored in my google account. The only difference if I had lost the phone would be I would need to mark it lost on my account and order 2 new sim cards from my 2 providers.


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## Glitch (7 Jan 2021)

The people who can't cope with smart phones are often (but not always) the same ones that don't upgrade their PC OS, security software and web browsers.
Products go out of support and stop getting security updates.

Too many combinations of OS and browser products and versions to maintain your banking software against.
Therefore far easier to provide services through phone/tablet apps which are so simple for the user to upgrade.


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## Lons (7 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> To be fair that applies to a lot of things, if you use a laptop for these things then you would be stuffed if something went wrong



No I wouldn't I'd very quickly plug a backup drive into the usb on my desktop or wife's lap top and be able to access anything I want instantly, if my 'phone breaks down, as my iphone did a few weeks ago unless you have a spare 'phone on hand to download from the cloud or wherever you''re stuffed for at least a while.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

Lons said:


> Good luck with that if you lose it or it suddenly breaks when you need urgent access Bill.
> I know there are ways around it but I'm decidedly against keeping everything in one place. Not saying you're wrong just saying it's not for me.



Backed up daily with spare handset.

I can access most things through other means at least, I still carry my wallet around. for example, but yes I do accept there's an inherent risk!


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I would say my mother doesn't spend an awful lot more than that, certainly under a fiver a year. Smart phones only cost money if you make a call or send a text, just like a normal mobile phone. Using wifi you can do almost everything on there including making free calls through apps like whatsapp. She sends messages (free), checks the weather, does her banking, looks up information, books restaurants (when you can lol), takes photos and videos of the grandchildren to share with her friends, uses loyalty apps when shopping for money off etc and uses the GPS feature to navigate sometimes as well (also free).


I'm not saying they're not very useful, just that they're not for everyone. I loathe computers, I'm not remotely interested in them. I struggle with a normal keyboard not to hit two keys at the same time so smaller keys/touch controls are great fun - my wife bought me a Kindle for Xmas, I suspect it'll be thrown somewhere before it ever gets used. I don't drive, don't take photos (I have cameras), don't send messages, (email on the computer and a land line) ...
This is as yet the only phone I've ever owned (5?) that I haven't lost within two months of buying it - that's because it's usually home on the table, flat  - and I only have this one from absolute necessity.


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## Lons (7 Jan 2021)

Glitch said:


> The people who can't cope with smart phones are often (but not always) the same ones that don't upgrade their PC OS, security software and web browsers.
> Products go out of support and stop getting security updates.
> 
> Too many combinations of OS and browser products and versions to maintain your banking software against.
> Therefore far easier to provide services through phone/tablet apps which are so simple for the user to upgrade.


I'm pleased you added (but not always)  as not everyone who doesn't want their life on a 'phone is incapable of operating one!

The software on 'phones loses support as well and I have a case in point, my less than 2 year old Iphone running OS 14+ developed a sudden fault which prevented calls, texts and internet access, it took a week to get an appointment at a local Apple genius bar following the usual actions by me and then on line and telephone support, at the shop 5 minutes of diagnosis to be told it's a hardware fault and is rubber ducked, no offer of repair, trade in or discount on a new 'phone, you'll have to buy one in the shop sir, at full retail, my response was no way but even emails to the UK MD hasn't resolved it however that's another story my point is luckily I held on to an 4 year old iphone 6 which I'm using until I decide to change (to an android) and that 'phone is stuck at OS 12 with no further updates available. According to Apple there are many thousands of people using much older models than that on even older OS.
Support for windows lasts a lot longer than 3 to 4 years.


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## Lons (7 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Backed up daily with spare handset.
> 
> I can access most things through other means at least, I still carry my wallet around. for example, but yes I do accept there's an inherent risk!


Sensible Bill and you're I would think is an exception as I don't know anyone who does that, not even me who make multiple backups of just about everything. I have my contacts list saved and the 'phone backed up to icloud but my comments still stand. If my wife lost her 'phone she would be in a hell of a state where I'd be inconvenienced much less.


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## Spectric (7 Jan 2021)

The so called "smart phone" has been more destructive to society than the Tv ever was and has become addictive for so many phone zombies who walk around just staring at the screen in another world totaly isolated from their surroundings and even their children. What is even worse is that a lot of the younger females cannot even accept their real image and have to digitaly alter it into something that resembles a cross between coco the clown and a being from outer space, not even in some cases allowing for space in which to fit their internal organs. It is a sad time when people start to want to ignore reality and live in a fantasy world that they find more appealing.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is a sad time when people start to want to ignore reality and live in a fantasy world that they find more appealing.



It's sad that reality's become so bad that people want to escape it.


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## pe2dave (7 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> That's a very odd choice to make though.


You might think that, I couldn't possibly comment?


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## selectortone (7 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Probably like me he doesn't really need one and doesn't want to pay dearly for something he doesn't want or really need?



Pay dearly? I wouldn't call £11.00 a month that dear, especially with WhatsApp allowing me to video chat to my kids and grandkids during lockdown. Back in the 1960s I used to read science fiction stories about being able to do that.

I certainly don't walk around with my nose in the phone either (which would look a bit ridiculous at my age)


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## pe2dave (7 Jan 2021)

selectortone said:


> Pay dearly? I wouldn't call £11.00 a month that dear,


Each to their own budgets?


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## artie (7 Jan 2021)

selectortone said:


> I wouldn't call £11.00 a month that dear,


If you don't mind me asking, what do you get for £11 per month and which network?


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## selectortone (7 Jan 2021)

artie said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what do you get for £11 per month and which network?



Not at all: it's actually £11.27, SIM only. 4G, 2GB data (never get anywhere near that), unlimited calls and texts. Vodafone. 18mth contract.


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## Deadeye (7 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> Who actually believes Android is more secure than other OS's. Remember Android is open source and ruled by Google so how far can you really trust it.



I don't think this is the security point the companies are aiming for.
The extra security comes from requiring both somehting you know (a password) and something you own - the phone.


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## Gerry (7 Jan 2021)

42" that's a portable. I use a 65" LG uhd tv Brilliant for games, multiple windows and applications.

Gerry


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Lons said:


> No I wouldn't I'd very quickly plug a backup drive into the usb on my desktop or wife's lap top and be able to access anything I want instantly, if my 'phone breaks down, as my iphone did a few weeks ago unless you have a spare 'phone on hand to download from the cloud or wherever you''re stuffed for at least a while.



If I am at home, I have access to everything I need from my phone on my laptop right away as it's all backed up automatically on my google account. Within an hour I can have another phone up and running. And I do have a spare phone at home of course. In an absolute emergency if I was away from home, I can add my account to my partners phone as a second user and within minutes have access to my data.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I'm not saying they're not very useful, just that they're not for everyone. I loathe computers, I'm not remotely interested in them. I struggle with a normal keyboard not to hit two keys at the same time so smaller keys/touch controls are great fun - my wife bought me a Kindle for Xmas, I suspect it'll be thrown somewhere before it ever gets used. I don't drive, don't take photos (I have cameras), don't send messages, (email on the computer and a land line) ...
> This is as yet the only phone I've ever owned (5?) that I haven't lost within two months of buying it - that's because it's usually home on the table, flat  - and I only have this one from absolute necessity.



Well you are a very unusual case then, but I am sure you already knew that


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

Jeez I pay £13 a month for unlimited data. I think I have calls and texts too but they're never used.


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

@selectortone @pe2dave @artie 
Speaking for myself I run two sims (long story), one is on O2 PAYG, I use about £1 per year on that account, the other sim is on 1P Mobile which is also PAYG with minimum top up of £30 per year. Works great for my needs. If I used the phone less (and didn't need 2 sims) I would have just stuck with the basic O2 PAYG and probably spent about £1 per month or so.


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## artie (7 Jan 2021)

selectortone said:


> Not at all: it's actually £11.27, SIM only. 4G, 2GB data (never get anywhere near that), unlimited calls and texts. Vodafone. 18mth contract.


I have a mobile phone almost exclusively so that I can divert the landline calls when I'm out and about. It's cheaper than paying someone to sit and look pretty between answering the occasional call. It also has the bonus that I hear first hand what the message is, not some translation or half forgotten version. I'm on PAYG and it's usually less than a tenner a month.

My trusty Nokia 3210 expired a few years ago so I replaced it with a smart phone so I could also handle emails on the hoof.
Unfortunately I installed whatsapp and messenger, don't get me wrong they are very handy for sending/receiving photos, drawings etc. 
It just seem that 90% of the traffic is monkeys in lipstick or some other nonsense.
I find myself fuming when I remove assorted PPE so that I can see what's incoming only to find I never knew how much dung an Elephant can produce at one time. or some other equally daft video or picture.
But then if the phone is quiet for a time I start to wonder what's wrong.
Such is life in the 21 century.
Dan Dare didn't predict this.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

artie said:


> It just seem that 90% of the traffic is monkeys in lipstick or some other nonsense.



I think that says a lot more about your contacts than the platform.


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## lurker (7 Jan 2021)

Carrington event


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## clogs (7 Jan 2021)

u can laugh at me....
it wasn't that long ago my daughter had a fit and asked why my little Nokia didn't have a camera....
wot do I need a camera on a phone for..... dohhhh..... ??????
she bought me an iPhone and said move into the real world......
got to say am very happy with the trade up....
I will never understand or use the features on it......I do like the compass app tho....plus a few more.....
actually the translation app is very handy here.....speak to it or let the phone look at the sign, esp when shopping.....

I was never into electronics, would like a 3D printer but the comp side of it would drive me nuts....
BUT I'm very glad of the electronics in my chest.....my Defib pacemaker work as it supposed to last week.....hahaha....


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## artie (7 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> I think that says a lot more about your contacts than the platform.


You misunderstand,
I was merely relating my personal experience with mobile and later smart phones, but since you bring up the platforms themselves, there is something I would like to see improved.
Yesterday I deleted 8 messages from people not in my contact list. Most of them included pictures of females so poor and underprivileged they had barely enough clothes to cover essentials.
Others were engaged in activities with gentlemen who had obviously been more than well fed.
They professed that these well fed gentlemen were not sufficient for there needs and hoped that I would click the supplied link so that I could gain there address and call round to help them out.

I think it wouldn't be difficult, if the desire was there to block anonymous messages.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

artie said:


> Most of them included pictures of females so poor and underprivileged they had barely enough clothes to cover essentials.



Ah, now that sounds like MY contacts list.


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## Glitch (7 Jan 2021)

Also, cash is


Spectric said:


> The government and HMRC are the big benefactors from a cashless society, once all transactions are credit/debit card, bank transfers and other electronic means they are in control and have even more data about us and could manipulate the markets.



HMRC collecting tax revenues that otherwise disappear into the cash fuelled black economy? Is that bad?
Cash - the favoured currency of criminals and money launderers. Electronic payments easier to trace although the crims are very good at covering their tracks and keeping ahead of detection systems.
Also it's expensive for banks to process cash and move it around their branches.

I speak as someone who had always been PAYE and worked in banking technology and also often paid cash to tradesmen/builders because otherwise they'd have to charge me VAT.


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## Glitch (7 Jan 2021)

Lons said:


> I'm pleased you added (but not always)  as not everyone who doesn't want their life on a 'phone is incapable of operating one!
> 
> The software on 'phones loses support as well and I have a case in point, my less than 2 year old Iphone running OS 14+ developed a sudden fault which prevented calls, texts and internet access, it took a week to get an appointment at a local Apple genius bar following the usual actions by me and then on line and telephone support, at the shop 5 minutes of diagnosis to be told it's a hardware fault and is rubber ducked, no offer of repair, trade in or discount on a new 'phone, you'll have to buy one in the shop sir, at full retail, my response was no way but even emails to the UK MD hasn't resolved it however that's another story my point is luckily I held on to an 4 year old iphone 6 which I'm using until I decide to change (to an android) and that 'phone is stuck at OS 12 with no further updates available. According to Apple there are many thousands of people using much older models than that on even older OS.
> Support for windows lasts a lot longer than 3 to 4 years.



After us Boomers and our parents have gone the following generations will have grown up with smart phones and consider it normal.

I can understand the frustration with the Apple warranty. Hardware that fails within 2 years is clearly not fit for purpose. Apple are not being fair.

I have mobile phone insurance in my banking package. I think we claimed once in the past years but I've replaced a number of smashed screens

Built in obsolescence is common these days. It forces people into upgrades that aren't really necessary although many people will always want the latest model.


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## Lons (7 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If I am at home, I have access to everything I need from my phone on my laptop right away as it's all backed up automatically on my google account. Within an hour I can have another phone up and running. And I do have a spare phone at home of course. In an absolute emergency if I was away from home, I can add my account to my partners phone as a second user and within minutes have access to my data.


You said I'd be stuffed if my laptop broke, I said NO I WOULDN'T and explained why, nothing more nothing less, not for a second did I suggest you couldn't do the same. 
Are you back up to your old tricks trying to start an argument?


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## Lons (7 Jan 2021)

Glitch said:


> After us Boomers and our parents have gone the following generations will have grown up with smart phones and consider it normal.
> 
> I can understand the frustration with the Apple warranty. Hardware that fails within 2 years is clearly not fit for purpose. Apple are not being fair.
> 
> ...


It wasn't so much the fact that it was bin fodder at less than 2 years neither was it the way Apple responded generally in fact their support department and genius bar is excellent, it was the company policy of offering nothing at all as a final solution to a long standing customer who bought 2, sometimes 3 iphones every 2 years or less, had been loyal and spent a great deal of money. I never asked for a free repair, I was prepared to pay and was shocked it couldn't be done, they could have offered me a trade in against a new £800 phone but refused and the same attitude refusing a discount which I could have got even from Costco so it was clear that customer loyalty means very little.
I emailed The MD personally and then had a few people chasing their tails but same result so I'll never buy another Apple product and have told the MD why, My wife also knows when the contract ends if she wants an iphone 12 it won't be on my business contract so they've lost 2 of those come March, it's hardly going to make any difference to Apple.
Ironically I was seriously looking at an Apple laptop before Christmas, not any more!


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## Rorschach (7 Jan 2021)

Lons said:


> You said I'd be stuffed if my laptop broke, I said NO I WOULDN'T and explained why, nothing more nothing less, not for a second did I suggest you couldn't do the same.
> Are you back up to your old tricks trying to start an argument?



You said if Bill's phone broke he would stuffed, I was using that same logic on you if your laptop broke. But as you proved and I proved, if either a laptop or a phone breaks you are not stuffed, just inconvenienced for a short time. As you said, you can use another laptop to get up and running again in a few minutes, and I said you can do the same with a phone. Both require another device of course. 
Not starting an argument


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## TRITON (8 Jan 2021)

Anthraquinone said:


> I could not fit the three screens of that size onto my desk. I am feeling deprived
> 
> As for mobile banking apps I trust the secrutiy on my PCs much more than on my phone. So far I have never installed a banking app on it.
> 
> AQ


Aha, a project for a bigger desk 

I dont trust online banking either, beyond paypal and its connected to my bank account. I just dont trust the web to be safe enough and although I've used the web since it began, ive not a clue how it all works and the crims do.
In fact even logging into paypal i only do by internal links inside my ebay account. That way at least i know the links i am following are 100% secure. I'd never google 'paypal' and log in via one of the results(Yup I know its probably fine,but....) nor would i go from email to paypal. Its only via my ebay - account - Paypal account- 'see your account summary' and log in from there that I would trust the internet to get me there securely


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jan 2021)

We bank on line. My wife has worked for banks for 38 years.


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## Cooper (8 Jan 2021)

I have found this thread most reassuring, for years I thought I was the last person on the planet not to use a mobile or smart phone. The only time I miss one is when I meet family at the airport.


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## Felix (8 Jan 2021)

It seems that lots of people confuse the Internet with the World Wide Web (www) - they are not synonymous with each other. The Internet is just that - an inter-connected network of computers that consists of routers, switches, servers, home computers and more recently hand-held devices (smartphones, tablets etc). The www (as created by Tim Berners-Lee) is just software that runs on many individual computers commonly known as web-servers - although there are systems that group together multiple computers that act as one as seen by you and I.

The www was originally written as a client/server application in order to disseminate information within the academic community. Over time the protocol (http/https) has been significantly expanded to allow web-servers to perform a multitude of tasks mostly over secure links (hence the 'https' in front of any url) in this day and age - webmail, e-commerce, video streaming, banking - and so on.

The www uses the Internet to transmit data from one place to another - that's it.

When people say the Internet is bad - it's not the Internet they're talking about - it's the www. It's people that write (code) software that runs either on the web-servers or another computer (generally without the user's knowledge) with the purpose of some illegal activity that are the 'bad' element.

Each member of this forum that uses a computer has the potential to run their own web server as opensource software exists to enable you to do it relatively easy.

I'll leave it there as this subject is massive and I'll probably end up confusing myself - let alone anyone else 

Have your eyes glazed over yet........

Cheers
Dean


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## billw (8 Jan 2021)

Cooper said:


> I have found this thread most reassuring, for years I thought I was the last person on the planet not to use a mobile or smart phone. The only time I miss one is when I meet family at the airport.



My mum steadfastly refuses too.


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## Spectric (8 Jan 2021)

Glitch said:


> HMRC collecting tax revenues that otherwise disappear into the cash fuelled black economy? Is that bad?
> Cash - the favoured currency of criminals and money launderers.


That would be great if it applied to all, but those with the big money still hide it to avoid tax in so called tax avoidance schemes. If all the loopholes were closed and enforced then HMRC could reduce taxation for all and still pull in more money.


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## Glitch (9 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> That would be great if it applied to all, but those with the big money still hide it to avoid tax in so called tax avoidance schemes. If all the loopholes were closed and enforced then HMRC could reduce taxation for all and still pull in more money.



Tax avoidance is perfectly legal and something we all should strive for. It does get stretched to the limit by the global DotComs using tax havens within the law, or F1 drivers and billionaires who can afford to live in tax friendly places like Monaco. But that's more to do with ethics rather than law.

Tax evasion is illegal whether it's tradesmen working for cash, buying fake and knock-off goods, or the super rich hiding funds offshore. Estimated to be 10% of UK GDP. More prevalent in Southern European countries. Greece being a prime example of systemic tax evasion.


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## Glitch (9 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> My mum steadfastly refuses too.



My 85yo Mum is a whizz at WhatsApp, though not great with other Apps. She also enjoys playing games on her PS4.


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## Spectric (9 Jan 2021)

Us babyboomers have gone through so much change, black & white Tv with three channels to dozens of channels from multiple providers and in HD that we cannot appreciate due to failing eyesight, our toys were clockwork if we were lucky and the world was racing for the stars now kids have toys more advanced than the kit used in the space race but would I have changed it, no way because I had a proper childhood with freedom that kids no longer have because society has gone so wrong, there are just to many sickos on the loose.


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## Glitch (9 Jan 2021)

Boomer generation definitely feels like the best (and luckiest)


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## Rorschach (9 Jan 2021)

Glitch said:


> Tax avoidance is perfectly legal and something we all should strive for. It does get stretched to the limit by the global DotComs using tax havens within the law, or F1 drivers and billionaires who can afford to live in tax friendly places like Monaco. But that's more to do with ethics rather than law.
> 
> Tax evasion is illegal whether it's tradesmen working for cash, buying fake and knock-off goods, or the super rich hiding funds offshore. Estimated to be 10% of UK GDP. More prevalent in Southern European countries. Greece being a prime example of systemic tax evasion.



Absolutely, I avoid as paying as much tax as possible (legally) and anyone who says they don't is a liar.


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## Rorschach (9 Jan 2021)

Glitch said:


> Boomer generation definitely feels like the best (and luckiest)



They are the luckiest, it's a fact. No generation that follows is likely to have had as much comfort or wealth than the boomers.


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## gregmcateer (10 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> My mum steadfastly refuses too.



Refuses aphone, or to meet the family at the airport?


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## gregmcateer (10 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> They are the luckiest, it's a fact. No generation that follows is likely to have had as much comfort or wealth than the boomers.



Although this gen could well end up unhealthier and dying younger due to poor diet. Which would be an outrageous situation, imho


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## NickWelford (10 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> Us babyboomers have gone through so much change, black & white Tv with three channels to dozens of channels.


 3 Channels? You were lucky! BBC2 didn’t start until 1964...... only 2 before that. I can’t quite remember when ITV started, although I was three at the time.
]


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## Rorschach (10 Jan 2021)

gregmcateer said:


> Although this gen could well end up unhealthier and dying younger due to poor diet. Which would be an outrageous situation, imho



Which generation?


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## clogs (10 Jan 2021)

my best rememberd toy was a wooden wheel barrow painted shxt house green....(wasnt everything then...hahaha)
made by my grandad.....
all things mechanical gave me an insight to what I enjoy today........
I often wonder who's going to fix stuff when this generation is not around...
u just cant throw everthing away...and there will always be punctures to fix......
I've had great fun teaching my daughter how things work......


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