# Celtic knots howto ?



## loz (24 Sep 2009)

Hi Guys,

I have seen some of the pen guys create wonderful looking Celtic knots i think they are, or loops. I 'm not a pen man but wondering if the effect might be sucessful on goblets or spindle items like canle holders etc..


Im confused though of the lamination, cutting and reglue involved.

Anyone have a howto /link ?

Thanks

Loz


----------



## loftyhermes (24 Sep 2009)

Have a look at this, though there are plenty more out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9uQv5sKibk


----------



## Bodrighy (24 Sep 2009)

If you Google 'celtic knot lamination' there are afew tutorials on the first page that might answer your questions

Hope this helps

Pete


----------



## Blister (24 Sep 2009)

now " THATS " a workshop :shock:


----------



## loz (24 Sep 2009)

Oh yeh Google -  

Seems there more to this then i expected


----------



## loz (24 Sep 2009)

Hmm, 

The laminate insert has to be the same width as the kerf of the blade... not fair. 

I don't have any thin stock/ veneer , so was going to use some 1/4 inch pine strips for a trial run. ( on a goblet or something similar ) but bandsaw sure doesn't have a 1/4 inch kerf ! 

if, after my first glue up, on my second cut i sand away 1/8 inch on each block ill have a 1/4 inch gap to the ? - or does that sound too simple ? 

Loz


----------



## Bodrighy (24 Sep 2009)

He was inserting the laminate on a square blamk. No reason why you can't cut right through and lue 1/4" laminate between each section. Only problem is waitting for each one to dry. His way they all dry at saome time. 
Hope that makes sense.

Pete


----------



## loz (24 Sep 2009)

Bodrighy":33l1aj54 said:


> He was inserting the laminate on a square blamk. No reason why you can't cut right through and lue 1/4" laminate between each section. Only problem is waitting for each one to dry. His way they all dry at saome time.
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Pete



I can't visualise properly - i'll have to test. getting cross eyes trying to think i three dimentions !


----------



## stevebuk (24 Sep 2009)

i have made a couple of these pens loz, unsucessfully i might add too, they need to be really accurate, as you have mentioned, it doesn't matter what thickness you use, it must be the same width as the cut from the blade otherwise they dont align properly when turned.
It is good fun though, try it out.. :lol: 

try using pickguard for guitars, you can get some great colours.


----------



## bobham (25 Sep 2009)

If the insert stock thickness is different from the saw kerf width then the loops won't match up where they cross. The key is that the same amount must be removed each time the piece is cut and that amount must be exactly replaced by the insert stock so that the overall length of the blank remains the same throughout. If you have another method of guaranteeing that the same amount of stock that is removed is replaced on each cut then that should work too. 

Here is a goblet I did last summer in maple & walnut:







Take care
Bob


----------



## loz (25 Sep 2009)

They are stunning Bob - and thanks the advice.

Loz


----------



## petercharlesfagg (25 Sep 2009)

Some time ago I was asked to make a small bowl with a Celtic cross in the base. In order to do so I found this website that allows you to plan your own Celtic design using your keyboard. You can then use a Laser printer and transfer the design to the bowl using Cellulose Sanding sealer on the back of the design.

http://www.clanbadge.com/

The programme is cheap and very effective.

Peter.


----------



## greggy (25 Sep 2009)

bobham":l6730sl6 said:


> If the insert stock thickness is different from the saw kerf width then the loops won't match up where they cross. Here is a goblet I did last summer in maple & walnut:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




sorry bob, but this is not true. the secret is....
that when you start to do a celtic knot..
first of all your blank must, and i stress, must be pefectly square before you even start before you cut your blank.


----------



## Jonzjob (11 Oct 2009)

Well, I suppose that I do try to pick the most difficult route because my experiment into the Celtic knot was definately not square or round!











In fact a piece of oval box 4" x 3 1/4" and very alkward to get the cuts at 90 deg to each other never mind at the same level or angle :shock: . But I had a try and this is the result. The crosses almost line up all the way round too. The insert is mahogony, I think?? Each 'slice' was cut through completely, glued and left for at least 4 hours before the next cut was made. Then left overnight to set properly before turning.






Now I know what to expect I will have another try

My neighbour has promised me an even larger piece of box too!


----------



## Dalboy (11 Oct 2009)

I made this using this guide 
http://content.penturners.org/articles/ ... ot-Pen.pdf







Hope it is of some use


----------



## stevebuk (11 Oct 2009)

hi john
why didn't you turn it to round first and then set about putting in the laminate??


----------



## Jonzjob (12 Oct 2009)

You start bringing logic into this Steve and I will get totally confused  .

That will probably be the way I do the next one?


----------



## NikNak (13 Oct 2009)

.


Like you Loz, and a few others i suspect, i've not been turning long... in fact it's just gone past the 12 month mark (and 3 of those i didn't do anything as it was too cold down the shed...!!). So i'm not claiming to be good at it, just got an eye for detail.... and patience.... you need to be patient sometimes... dont be tempted to rush it.


Like you i was impressed and amazed at just _how_ the Celtic Knots were done... so i watched the you-tube thingy, and was left thinking that if a twelve year old boy could do it.... so could i, and set about having a go..... here's some pics (i hope...)


chose my piece of wood... a bit of Walnut, and decided to use Birch Ply as an insert, 2 reasons..... 1, i liked the contrast of dark and light wood, and 2, i had some...! 

Then set about setting up my chop-saw with a couple of 'stops' for depth and length (sorry, forgot to take some pics of that bit), and proceeded to cut at 30 degree angle. Now the blade width is approx 3mm and the ply was just over 6mm.... so had to cut down to right(ish) size on bandsaw and sand smooth first (this is the patience and preparation bit...!!)

oh... i also forgot to mention that the ply was only 25mm wide..!! so each cut & glue step needed TWO inserts of Birch ply to get to the same depth as the Walnut.... keeping up with me..??

Once the two pieces were glued in (just using ordinary PVA), i used a wedge and a weight strategically placed to help close the joint. (again no pics of this, sorry). And left to dry overnight. Did this another 3 times for the other faces, making sure i used the same depth & length stops. And each time 'wedging' the cut closed (and cleaning up the faces before the next cut....).

By the end of cutting and glueing 4 faces the Walnut lump was looking a bit errr.... bent and slightly twisted lets say. But hey.... it's my first attempt....

Here's the pics......







i think you can just about make out the 'bend' in the Walnut here...









on the lathe ready to go... 









turned to round...








close up of a 'dink' in the ply insert



The 'dink' probably due to me 'easing' the ply in with a hammer while glueing..! Got over this quite easily... just turned it a little bit thinner...!! This left just a tiny errr blemish, which was filled with a bit more glue and sawdust rubbed in.








see top and bottom of the inlaid ply and you can just make out the join in the two pieces per side...



At the same time i also did a Kapur with a Walnut inlay...







this one also suffered the same bending and twisting as i glued it...








the two side by side.... ready to be made into nice box's.


I know some of the other guys on here are wizzy experts and have been turning for years and make it all look very easy. I'm NOT an expert... just needed to be pointed in the right direction and give it a go. I'll definitely be trying this again..... just like the lad in the video clip.

Give it a go..... i did..!!


Oh.... and on the subject of that lad.... i was a bit bemused as to why he had to cut up so much wood just to make a pen..!! are you pen guys that picky about your wood then...?? :lol: (de-forestation, climate change, blah blah blah...)


Nick



almost forgot to say.... i left the turned pieces of wood on the kitchen worktop, and when my missus (BIGGEST CRITIQUE..!!) comes home she asks where i bought them from..!!! so they must look good enough to use.....??


----------



## Jonzjob (13 Oct 2009)

That's really good! I like the effect of the ply with the dark line and I love walnut anyway!!

I, and I expect others, will be looking forward to seeing the final boxes..

The only time that I have done anything in ply was a shallow bowl made by gluing 2 1 inch pieces of birch ply together. Several people thought it was porcelain and because of the amount of dust and blunting the tools I probably won't be doing a production run with it? :shock:


----------



## frugal (13 Oct 2009)

Does this technique create true celtic knots? I.e. with the overlapping of the bands in the correct places? Is it even possible without resporting to veneering the object after it has been turned?


----------



## loz (13 Oct 2009)

Nice post NikNak !

Look well for first attempts, Still havent got around to it yet - with needing competion pices and the restart of nightschool, i have a todo list to beat the band.

Band

Ah yes - Thats my main concern - the kerf thickness of a bandsaw cut. I'm gonna need some very thin veneer.................

Frugal - Even if not tru e- dont they look fab !!!!


----------



## NikNak (13 Oct 2009)

.

Loz


you're worrying about the kerf (blade) thickness unnecessarily...

think outside of the box for a mo....

what's to stop you cutting a slot the same size as your inlay choice..? i.e. i used a piece of 1/4 inch ply and chose to cut it down.... why not leave it at 1/4 inch (6mm ish) and cut the slot to suit..?

that way you already know the thickness of your inlay wood... you just need to 'ease' the slot till its just big enough..?

like i said in my post above..... it was my first attempt... (and i think i got lucky to be fair). I didn't worry (too much) about having perfectly square wood to start with, or the inlay fitting exactly right (in-fact a couple were a bit of a dogs dinner fit wise, and i just hoped the glue did the rest...).

again if you're still worried about blades thickness...... then just cut the wood right through at whatever angle you choose, glue in your inlay choice, clean up, turn and cut the next face..... making sure you get lengths right(ish)..... even if the lengths are out by a little bit.... it doesn't matter.... you'll need the eye of a hawk to notice that the nice little do-dah sitting on your mantle piece is a bit wrong...... 


just get in there and give it a go.....





Nick



Oh..... Frugal(?), yes from what i can make out the bands are true i.e. the crossing over etc. but can be altered by which face you decide to cut/laminate next.....


----------



## frugal (13 Oct 2009)

NikNak":19k1831w said:


> .Oh..... Frugal(?), yes from what i can make out the bands are true i.e. the crossing over etc. but can be altered by which face you decide to cut/laminate next.....



NikNak, 

Looking at your photo: 







For the piece on the left: the line from top left to bottom right goes Under, Under, Over; the line from top right to bottom left goes Under Over, Over; the top curve is Over, Over; and the bottom curve is Under, Under.

It looks great, but true celtic knot work has to go Over-Under-Over-Under. I am wondering if it is even possible to create true knotwork with this technique. I think you would have to do each slice in segments, and the arrangements would get more and more complex the more intersections you put in.


----------



## Jonzjob (13 Oct 2009)

It wouldn't be possible to creat a knot with rope in the same way that the 'knot' is done in wood. It wouldn't be stable. As you say, they must go over-under to make it stable, even if the over under is across 2 or more strands at a time. As in this 'monkeys fist' I made a while back. Even with this I was corrected in that it should have 3 not 4 strands. Picky or wot :shock: 






It was made over a wooden ball that I turned for the project.


----------



## loz (13 Oct 2009)

Jonzjob":3784c6ie said:


> It wouldn't be possible to creat a knot with rope in the same way that the 'knot' is done in wood. It wouldn't be stable. As you say, they must go over-under to make it stable, even if the over under is across 2 or more strands at a time. As in this 'monkeys fist' I made a while back. Even with this I was corrected in that it should have 3 not 4 strands. Picky or wot :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> It was made over a wooden ball that I turned for the project.



Shouldnt be stuffed either ! '


----------



## Jonzjob (13 Oct 2009)

Yes it can be, they were made for a heaving line and the addition of a center gave it a bit more weight, but not anything very heavy, hence the wooden ball.

BUT avoid the temptation to weight the core with a hard, heavy object. This can convert a useful knot into a potentially lethal missile. Any self-respecting wharfie will take out his knife and cut off any such knot.


----------



## Happy amateur (13 Oct 2009)

If doing the cuts on a bandsaw at 45 degrees and using a stop for the positioning, do the first cut. insert a shim between the stop and blank to give the right spacing for the insert. The shim thickness must take into account the blade thickness and should not be the same thickness as the insert. Hope that makes sense. 
If the blank is not cut right through as in the youtube video then when the insert is glued, trim the insert and clamp the blank to a bench using greese proof paper and it will keep the blank straight as the glue dries.

Fred


----------



## Bodrighy (13 Oct 2009)

Jonzjob":1llmtqy0 said:


> It wouldn't be possible to creat a knot with rope in the same way that the 'knot' is done in wood. It wouldn't be stable. As you say, they must go over-under to make it stable, even if the over under is across 2 or more strands at a time. As in this 'monkeys fist' I made a while back. Even with this I was corrected in that it should have 3 not 4 strands. Picky or wot :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be really picky, that monkys fist has 5 strands not 4 and it doesn't matter how many strands it has to be a monkeys fist. That just happens to be a 5 stranded fist. I have been doing fancy knotwork since 1967 when I first went to sea and the bull you read is not from the knot workers but from macrame people. All the fancy knots had a practical purpose the fist was for a heaving line to weight the end for throwing(ours had to have nuts and bolts in and were soaked in oil). If you were using thinner line you often did extra strands to acomodate the weight inside.

Frugals comments on the celtic knot are also not correct as there are celtic knots that do have double overs and unders. The significance is in the fact a true celtic knot should have no visible end or beginning and in part symbolises eterity in one form or another and were a major part of druidic culture where they originated before being adopted into the celtic christian art and culture.

Pete


----------



## NikNak (14 Oct 2009)

Just sat here having a really close look at the way the knot crosses over & under etc... 

and have noticed that one band goes 

under - under - under- under - under - under

another goes

over - over - over - over - over - over

and the other two

under - under - over - under - under - over

over - over - under - over - over - under


so the first (all unders) i reckon is the first cut
the next (all overs) is the last cut
and the next two are the other cuts..... (durrr)


so who's right and who's wrong i dont know..... but i'm just off down the shed to finish it off (did a lot yesterday) and will post back later with a pic of the finished item......




Nick


----------



## loz (14 Oct 2009)

According the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship - it shouldn't be stuffed with anything.

But thats just the RN - what would they know about knots ?


----------



## jpt (14 Oct 2009)

loz":gxx9qkoj said:


> According the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship - it shouldn't be stuffed with anything.
> 
> But thats just the RN - what would they know about knots ?



Not a lot :wink: 

Merchant seamen know a lot more.  

john


----------



## NikNak (14 Oct 2009)

Just nipped down the shed and finished it off.... 

here you go.... some pictures to see...






















a look at the inside too.... the bands follow the same pattern throughout








held up to the light to see how transparent the ply is....








a few bits & bobs on the mantle.....




as a first attempt at knotting/banding i'm fairly well pleased.... 

just waiting for responses from 'er indoors and the ladies at work.....


just as soon as i've done the Kapur/Walnut one, i'll post a pic of that too....


hope you all like...?



Nick


----------



## Bodrighy (14 Oct 2009)

In fgact it is now illegal to put weights in them, health and safety, also not legal to soak as it makes it very hard but then again what is legal?  

Pete


----------



## loz (14 Oct 2009)

Very nice - and very nice trivets also !!!!!!


----------



## Bodrighy (14 Oct 2009)

NikNak":2aosmx5m said:


> as a first attempt at knotting/banding i'm fairly well pleased....
> Nick



And so you shsosuld be, those all look really good. I haven't tried lamination yet, too muh maths involved for me but those are very tempting to have a go at. 

The spalted work looks good as well. Are the trivets done with a scroll saw? Very effective.

Pete


----------



## NikNak (14 Oct 2009)

The trivets were done on the bandsaw and finished off using the beltsander i got for my birthday.....

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... =1&jump=48


a little tricky... but worth it.... got orders for some of those, some to use as trivets and some wanted as table (place) mats(?)

The 'T' lights are sold and have an order to make another set of six. OH... and box's... cant make enough of them...  



Nick


----------



## Jonzjob (25 Oct 2009)

Knot quite turned, but here is a celtic knot that was ispired by a programme on the haunted fish tank (TV) a short while back. There was a lovely 3 part knot on a windowsill overlooking Lockness and I decided to see how it would be to do a 5 point one. I take my hat off to the guys who do the beautifull work with fretsaws!






Mind you I suppose that I did take the bull by the horns when I decided to use 1" thick oak! And on the next one the 'over/under' will be pyrographed instead of carved!


----------

