# Which turpentine for beeswax finish



## tibi (10 Apr 2022)

Hello, 

I am going to finish the restoration of my great-grandfather's workbench in 4- 6 weeks. I would like to make my own beeswax finish for it. 

I would like to include beeswax, Carnauba, and turpentine. 

In English-speaking sites, turpentine is always referred to as turpentine only. However, in Slovakia, I can buy both Wood Turpentine and Balsamic Turpentine and I do not know which one is suitable for this application? 

Also, what is a good ratio of compounds, and are there any hazards concerning preparation and usage I should be aware of? Is this finish suitable to be in contact with food or for children's toys? 

Thank you very much.


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## Rich C (10 Apr 2022)

I think wood turpentine is traditional. That said there doesn't seem to be much difference between them, they're both extracted from pine.


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## johnnyb (10 Apr 2022)

does balsamic turpentine also contains copaiba balsam? Portugal makes the best turpentine.


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2022)

Possibly overthinking it a bit. Turps is just a solvent and white spirit or other things would do just as well. Some smell nicer though!


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2022)

johnnyb said:


> does balsamic turpentine also contains copaiba balsam? Portugal makes the best turpentine.


And SW France in the Forest of Landes. There is a Museum of Turpentine at Luxey - worth a visit!


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## johnnyb (10 Apr 2022)

it's as simple or as complex as you would like really. turps and white spirit are not the same( though they may dissolve similar materials) I also believe turpentine substitute and white spirit are not quite the same one being used as a thinner one as a brush cleaner.(in fact they are usually the same these days)
same with thinners many different solvents all will dissolve lacquer.


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2022)

__





les landes - its forestry industry: resin products : resin products | France zone at abelard.org







www.abelard.org


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## tibi (10 Apr 2022)

Here is the difference:

*Wood Turpentine *- turpentine is made of wood or roots (wood turpentine oil). This turpentine is made by extraction from branches or roots of pine using a problematic chemical called petroleum ether. During the extraction, some other substances are created like Alpha-Pinen and Alpha -Terpinen. Turpentine oil does not have the quality of balsamic turpentine. 

*Balsamic turpentine* is extracted by steam distillation from the resin outflow (balsam) of various pine species. As a rule, about 70% of the pine balsam consists of rosin resin and 30% turpentine oil. The world’s pine forests release several million tons of turpentine oil into the atmosphere every year.


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2022)

tibi said:


> Here is the difference:
> 
> *Wood Turpentine *- turpentine is made of wood or roots (wood turpentine oil). This turpentine is made by extraction from branches or roots of pine using a problematic chemical called petroleum ether. During the extraction, some other substances are created like Alpha-Pinen and Alpha -Terpinen. Turpentine oil does not have the quality of balsamic turpentine.
> 
> *Balsamic turpentine* is extracted by steam distillation from the resin outflow (balsam) of various pine species. As a rule, about 70% of the pine balsam consists of rosin resin and 30% turpentine oil. The world’s pine forests release several million tons of turpentine oil into the atmosphere every year.


Yes but what's the difference? "Balsamic" turpentine seems to be normal world wide turpentine as extracted from resin everywhere.


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## tibi (10 Apr 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yes but what's the difference? "Balsamic" turpentine seems to be normal world wide turpentine as extracted from resin everywhere.


This is what I wanted to know that i should use balsamic, not the one made from wood and branches i.e wood turpentine


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2022)

tibi said:


> This is what I wanted to know that i should use balsamic, not the one made from wood and branches i.e wood turpentine


If in doubt I'd assume it would make no difference.


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## Rich C (10 Apr 2022)

tibi said:


> This is what I wanted to know that i should use balsamic, not the one made from wood and branches i.e wood turpentine


I would use whichever is cheaper.


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## Devmeister (11 Apr 2022)

Wood turpentine. Turpentine is named after a chemical in trees called turpins. Green evergreens have the most in their needles. When trees die, the turpins dissipate. But green evergreens also have a lot of moisture.

In forest fires, green trees are harder to ignite but when they do, the turpins really burn and burn hot.

Turpentine is a turpin based solvent made naturally. Much better for wood finishes than petrol based solvents. The turpentine wax finish is a classic but needs to be replaced ever so often. It’s only downside is it doesn’t POP the grain like an oil finish. For a workbench that not an issue. For figure you might try a light coat of linseed oil first. Not a finish coat but just to pop the grain.

The beeswax is awsome but it’s a tad soft. So that is why the carnuba wax is used also. Makes the finish a bit more durable.

The lacquer and poly finishes have their place but on fine pieces it looks like a coyote terd wrapped in cellophane.


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## Jacob (11 Apr 2022)

Devmeister said:


> .....
> 
> The lacquer and poly finishes have their place but on fine pieces it looks like a coyote terd wrapped in cellophane.


  
I agree.


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## TRITON (11 Apr 2022)

If not mentioned before(tl:dr) you can buy pure turpentine. Artists use it to thin oil paints, and its available from better art shops. I got some last time i made up a wax compound, using bees and carnauba flakes.
Not cheap though.
Might also be known as distilled turpentine(or that might be the same thing as pure).

It cost me about a tenner for a 1/2 litre


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## tibi (11 Apr 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Wood turpentine. Turpentine is named after a chemical in trees called turpins. Green evergreens have the most in their needles. When trees die, the turpins dissipate. But green evergreens also have a lot of moisture.
> 
> In forest fires, green trees are harder to ignite but when they do, the turpins really burn and burn hot.
> 
> ...



Thank you Devmeister,

Thank you for your answer. Some people also add BLO into the mixture. Is it necessary to add a boiled linseed oil before as a separate coat or it can also be a part of the mixture and it will pop the grain?


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2022)

Turpentine Genuine 250ml


WARRIOR Stock a Large Range of Brush Treatments, Solvents and Thinners




www.warriorwarehouses.co.uk





Two years ago it was £3.


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## Sgian Dubh (11 Apr 2022)

Basically the turpentine required is known simply as 'genuine gum turpentine', which sometimes includes the word American in the title. One source in the UK is here. I've no idea where you'd get the stuff in Slovakia, so try a local search. I can't recall a prescriptive mix for the ingredients for your polish. It's been many years since I put together a polish like that, but I seem to recall the proportions can be adjusted for specific characteristics. For example, add extra carnauba wax if a harder finish is wanted (closer to a film finish) but doing so makes buffing out somewhat more difficult. Slainte.


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## tibi (11 Apr 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Basically the turpentine required is known simply as 'genuine gum turpentine', which sometimes includes the word American in the title. One source in the UK is here. I've no idea where you'd get the stuff in Slovakia, so try a local search. I can't recall a prescriptive mix for the ingredients for your polish. It's been many years since I put together a polish like that, but I seem to recall the proportions can be adjusted for specific characteristics. For example, add extra carnauba wax if a harder finish is wanted (closer to a film finish) but doing so makes buffing out somewhat more difficult. Slainte.


Thank you very much. Gum turpentine is balsamic turpentine, so the problem is solved. I would need to experiment with the ratios, starting with some known formula that I will find online and then adjust accordingly.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2022)

I use microcrystaline wax and carnauba in preference to beeswax on things that get handled, they're much harder and have a higher melting point. Beeswax is a lovely polish but marks very easily. M/c and/or carnauba take longer to make as they're harder. Do it in a bain marie or glue kettle for safety. I did have a source for m/c wax but the last time I emailed he didn't answer.


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## Keith Cocker (11 Apr 2022)

I was into collecting antique furniture when I was a teenager. Some lovely stuff could be got for a few shillings then (1960s) I used to make a polish with beeswax and turps substitute and it was fine. I still have some of the furniture I polished with it. Now I have a bit more cash I use beeswax BLO and pure turpentine. It smells better but I’m not sure there is any real difference in application or effect.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2022)

In the late'60s my mother used to buy Victorian dining tables if she saw them at auction for less than 10/- (50p).
Taken ouside and broken up, I sold the bits I didn't need at school and they paid for the parts I used.


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## TominDales (11 Apr 2022)

I've used white spirit/turps substitute successfully for softening wax polish it works well as does genuine turpentine, but its much cheaper. Here are a few observations over the years and also I'm a working chemist so can comment on chemistry and safety. I dont think you need the expense of genuine turpentine, unless you like the smell.

1. M*ost important is don't heat the turps or solvents as they are highly flammable.* Instead melt the wax first over a bain marrie or glue kettle as @Phil Pascoe recommended pour into a jar (old jam jar) then add the solvent or solvents, and then stir in the solvents with no heat applied. Be very careful with warm solvent as it can explode if near a source of ignition. Also see the exposure limits for the solvents in point 5.

2. Beeswax and canuba wax are food safe. Canuba wax comes from the Brazilian palm tree.

3. White spirit can be quite variable in the oils contained in the solvent so select a well tried source. *Good White spirit should be odourless*. In the UK there is a BS standard BS 245 or German DIN 51632 these ensure they are suitable as solvents for washing brushes etc and also get consistent results for plasticising wax. This standard means the toxic (sweetish smelling) aromatic oil has been removed and also the more volatile kerosene smelling oil fractions has been removed. So quality white spirit whilst cheap (it comes from an oil refinery by the tonne), should be odourless. If it smells sweetish or kerosene I would be careful not to breath and only use for cleaning brushes. White spirit is not ideal for thinning paint as its not that volatile, but is great for softening wax.

4. Turpentine has a strong distinct 'pine' smell, this comes from its chemical structure it has a double bond (also called unsaturated hydrocarbon) and its shape mean that the nose can distinguish its distinct smell. Some people like this smell in furniture - antique effect. However its can overwhelm food so if in contact with food or children's toys, its better to use odourless turps substitute.

5. *Toxicity,* Turpentine is more toxic than white spirit (to the BS or DIN standard) the exposure limit in the USA for Turps is 100ppm for an 8 hour day and 500ppm for white spirit (called turps substitute). EU will be similar if not more stringent.

6. For first coating, I've read that some people add boiled linseed oil to the mixture in the ratio 1/3 turps(subs) 1/3 boiled linseed oil, 1/3 wax. The boiled linseed oil give it a darker appearance and brings out the grain better. I've not tried this myself. you could just give the surface an oiling before waxing.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2022)

White spirit BS245 and turps substitute may or may not be the same thing - there is no B.S. for turps sub.
.
Whilst you can buy low odour white spirit, I've yet to come across one that didn't stink.
Low Odour White Spirit 2L | Toolstation
I read an article by Ronald Rustin many years ago - he said always to thin oil based paints with W.S. never with turps sub. as there was no guarantee what was in it. Manufactures can use anything they choose, there's no standard. White spirit is not ideal for thinning paint? I wonder why paint manufacturers recommend it - what else would be used?


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2022)

I did query some white spirit I bought from B&M (iirc) as there was no standard number on it. The reply said that it had to comply with B.S. 245 to be sold as white spirit .......... which made me wonder it didn't carry the B.S. No. if that was the case.


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## TominDales (11 Apr 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> White spirit BS245 and turps substitute may or may not be the same thing - there is no B.S. for turps sub.
> .
> Whilst you can buy low odour white spirit, I've yet to come across one that didn't stink.
> Low Odour White Spirit 2L | Toolstation
> I read an article by Ronald Rustin many years ago - he said always to thin oil based paints with W.S. never with turps sub. as there was no guarantee what was in it. Manufactures can use anything they choose, there's no standard. White spirit is not ideal for thinning paint? I wonder why paint manufacturers recommend it - what else would be used?


Good points. Sorry I've probably been a bit loose as my bottle has White spirit and turps sub written on it. Bs245 and Din 51632 are the best ones to go for. They will all smell of oil, but cheap Turps substitute may well smell of aromatics (a sweetish smell, toluene, xylene but more worryingly benzene the later is very toxic and is in cheap petrol and cheap turps substitute etc) the lighter fractions are much smellier, so low odour rather than zeor odout. Not sure what they call this in Slovakia.

White spirit is not ideal for thinning paint?
They recommend it as its the safest thinners. Its one reason oil based paint takes ages to dry. Although in warmer countries its probably fine.

Professional decorators in the UK usually add another solvent to their thinners, usually one with a naphtha or lacquer fraction in it with more volatile additives. Sometime they add drying agents (catalysts) that speed up the chemicals bonding of the coating paint, especially in cold weather, but they also speed up the ageing of the coating as it gets more brittle over time than without the catalyst.


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## tibi (11 Apr 2022)

TominDales said:


> I've used white spirit/turps substitute successfully for softening wax polish it works well as does genuine turpentine, but its much cheaper. Here are a few observations over the years and also I'm a working chemist so can comment on chemistry and safety. I dont think you need the expense of genuine turpentine, unless you like the smell.
> 
> 1. M*ost important is don't heat the turps or solvents as they are highly flammable.* Instead melt the wax first over a bain marrie or glue kettle as @Phil Pascoe recommended pour into a jar (old jam jar) then add the solvent or solvents, and then stir in the solvents with no heat applied. Be very careful with warm solvent as it can explode if near a source of ignition. Also see the exposure limits for the solvents in point 5.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. Do you recommend some respirator working with turpentine? Is N95/FFP2/FFP3 enough or I should have something better?


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## TominDales (11 Apr 2022)

tibi said:


> Thank you very much. Do you recommend some respirator working with turpentine? Is N95/FFP2/FFP3 enough or I should have something better?


No you will be fine doing this in a ventilated shed. Just don't slosh solvent around willy-nilly. If you spill it, wipe it up and then leave the room for a bit.

Masks of that sort eg *N95 will be of no use* as the solvent will diffuse through them in the air, the molecules are tiny they are about 10^-9m in diameter whereas N95 is designed to filter-out particles (eg covid19 droplets) that are 10^-6m in diameter about 1000 times bigger.

However for a small job like a jam jar full and a piece of furniture such as your workbench you should be below the exposure limit if you do the work in a well ventilated room. Open the window of your shed/garage and you should be fine.

The key thing is not to over expose yourself. The long term effect of these solvents is damage to your nervous system (ie increase the likelihood of nervous deceases such as Parkinson's, MS etc) . The occasional finishing of jobs will be fine.

Professionals who wax furniture all day for a living should take extra precautions such as having a ventilated cubicle for this kind of work for use a forced air face mask. For your job don't worry. The key point is don't slosh the solvent around willy= nilly (sorry English term - don't splash it everywhere as if it was water).

Oh and the final point is white spirit is 5 times less hazadous so you can wax five times more for the same hazard to your heath, so be a bit more careful with Turpentine.


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## TominDales (11 Apr 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I did query some white spirit I bought from B&M (iirc) as there was no standard number on it. The reply said that it had to comply with B.S. 245 to be sold as white spirit .......... which made me wonder it didn't carry the B.S. No. if that was the case.


Um, not sure I'd trust B&M to know. B&Q yes, but a bargain basement company, you wonder what audits they do on suppliers?? I imagine some years its good stuff ie left overs from a reputable supplier (even reputable ones in China) and some years its, um, lll Russian or Chinese anything goes.


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## Devmeister (12 Apr 2022)

Wow you learn something every day. I recall seeing the term gum turpentine but it register in my brain. I would like to get some gum turp to see how it works.

we are having issues now with solvents. Environmental issues with voc release. I never thought turp would be on this list. I actually like the smell of turp and wax.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2022)

TominDales said:


> Um, not sure I'd trust B&M to know. B&Q yes, but a bargain basement company, you wonder what audits they do on suppliers?? I imagine some years its good stuff ie left overs from a reputable supplier (even reputable ones in China) and some years its, um, lll Russian or Chinese anything goes.


The inquiry was in writing to their head office not the store, so I assume someone checked it out.


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## tibi (12 Apr 2022)

TominDales said:


> No you will be fine doing this in a ventilated shed. Just don't slosh solvent around willy-nilly. If you spill it, wipe it up and then leave the room for a bit.
> 
> Masks of that sort eg *N95 will be of no use* as the solvent will diffuse through them in the air, the molecules are tiny they are about 10^-9m in diameter whereas N95 is designed to filter-out particles (eg covid19 droplets) that are 10^-6m in diameter about 1000 times bigger.
> 
> ...


Thanks TominDales, 

Is it possible to "cook" the mixture outside? My workshop is all made of wood with a lot of wood, wood dust,shavings,.etc inside. In case I set the mixture aflame (I will use bain marie, but I am doing this for the first time, so I want to be cautious)


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## TominDales (12 Apr 2022)

tibi said:


> Thanks TominDales,
> 
> Is it possible to "cook" the mixture outside? My workshop is all made of wood with a lot of wood, wood dust,shavings,.etc inside. In case I set the mixture aflame (I will use bain marie, but I am doing this for the first time, so I want to be cautious)


Yes . I often do so as it's much safer. We have a shaded patio area and on a suitable day I varnish and paint out doors. Not always possible in the UK!

If you melt the wax in the Bain Marie , turn off the heat, and then stir in the turps you will be fine. 

I salute your safety consousness. It annoys me that so many solvents and chemicals are banned, just because DIY folk won't heed precautions and work sensibly. We can't get DCM (nitromoors) in the UK without taking an exam and getting a certificate that costs £300. And because our government is fed up with fools that ignore all precautions and then sue the government for compensation when they get sick.

Good luck


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## tibi (12 Apr 2022)

TominDales said:


> Yes . I often do so as it's much safer. We have a shaded patio area and on a suitable day I varnish and paint out doors. Not always possible in the UK!
> 
> If you melt the wax in the Bain Marie , turn off the heat, and then stir in the turps you will be fine.
> 
> ...


Well, 

I am the kind of person who attracts accidents and injuries easily. That is one reason why I work mostly with hand tools. I only use thickness planer and also I use circular saw (skilsaw) only when I buy big slabs of lumber and I need to crosscut and rip them to smaller sections. I even rip wood to project dimensions by a hand saw. I do my best to work according to the safety precautions, but nevertheless, with power equipment it takes a split second to cut one's finger off and make irreversible damage to one's health.

I am maybe the only person who wears safety glasses when chopping mortices with a chisel (I have never seen anyone on youtube wear safety glasses when chopping mortices). I have chopped just a handful of mortices, but already I was glad that I had the glasses, because small pieces of wood just hit the glasses when chopping (If I did not have them, I would need to go to eye emergency to remove those particles from my eyes.


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## TominDales (12 Apr 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The inquiry was in writing to their head office not the store, so I assume someone checked it out.


I


Phil Pascoe said:


> The inquiry was in writing to their head office not the store, so I assume someone checked it out.


I've just been onto their web site and the white spirit sold seems to all have BS 245, and the turps substitute specifically says not as well refined at WS so not suitable as paint thinners. I think your enquiry has sharpened the practice. Its looks a decent store I'll look for one locally. I tend to support our local builders merchant, nice guys live locally etc. Life must have got harder since Screwfix and Toolstation opened in the out of town, but they are still service the local trades people. One thing I like about living up here in Yorkshire is the town still supports local trades.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2022)

It's quite good for DIY decorating stuff, and just like Lidl, Aldi , Farmfoods etc. it's very good for some things, not everything. We're lucky - we have a Bradfords, a TP, a Wickes, a Screwfix, a Toolstation and five good independents within 6 or 7 miles.


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## TominDales (12 Apr 2022)

tibi said:


> Well,
> 
> I am the kind of person who attracts accidents and injuries easily. That is one reason why I work mostly with hand tools.


Very sensible. Always wear safety classes, I've seen their benefit on several occasions.

One thing that struck me, you mentioned saw dust etc. Probably worth carefully sweeping and vacuuming it up every few days as dust is not only toxic but flammable. In fact fine dust can explode if in high enough concentration - there is a party trick with custard powered on this.

*Without taking proper precautions we all attract accidents.* I've met a fair share of know-alls who dismiss PPE etc until they have an accident, to be fair a few are quite humble about it, but some recon it was not their fault and don't learn. And a few who were unlucky enough to work for rogue employers. My first jobs/holiday work was on a farm and one guy had lost 3 fingers to separate incidents with the same harvester. I then joined the chemical industry where HSE is deeply ingrained. 

I'm scarred to death by my too-cheap table saw and prefer to use hand tools wherever possible. Its my hobby so I'm not up against customer deadlines though.

*Safety specs save the day.* A guy in my lab had his flask blow up and a large curved glass shard imbedded in his forehead. Safety specs completely black, pitted, cracked and bloody, but his eyes fine. The prof nailed these glasses to the lab notice board as a grisly warning to all students.
A friend had a freak accident, a saw blade broke off and came through the wall of his TS, it flew away from him, hit a tin of paint that exploded (must have been v hot) and the fireball hit him full in the face. Singed hair and face burns, but safety glasses saved his eyes.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2022)

A chap I used to drink used to get fed up with people taking the pee because his new job was as a H&S officer on building sites. He came in one night with a fair sized book of photos of dreadful injuries - as he pointed out, every single one was preventable. A problem is that over enthusiastic enforcement does no favours - another chap there ran a professional decoratoring firm, his men had just been pulled for not wearing hard hats. They were painting skirting boards in a school.


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## TominDales (12 Apr 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A chap I used to drink used to get fed up with people taking the pee because his new job was as a H&S officer on building sites. He came in one night with a fair sized book of photos of dreadful injuries - as he pointed out, every single one was preventable. A problem is that over enthusiastic enforcement does no favours - another chap there ran a professional decoratoring firm, his men had just been pulled for not wearing hard hats. They were painting skirting boards in a school.


I'm with your on this. The past chair of the HSE was Dame Julia Hackett (ex ICI). She railed against enforcement of daft rules, nearly always by people who couldn't be bothered to do things properly so banned them. At one point our city banned pancake races citing HSE and Dame Julia verbally tore a strip of them.

In my experience there is a learning curve. HSE comes into work, its initially very rules based, bureaucratic with lots of forms inspections, fear and ignorance, gets a mixed reaction from people who are supportive but frustrated and take the Pee.

However the workplace starts to learn and understand more deeply, risk assessments get done, Safe procedures get written by experts who know their tools etc and a more nuanced approach is adopted. People get encouraged to participate and employs get supported when reporting learning experiences and safety improvements and low and behold accident rates fall.
All accidents can be prevented is a very good rule of thumb. There is nearly always a route cause to an accident.

What has surprised me most in my career over the past 20 years or so, how the building trade has adopted HSE. From laggards with terrible LTA rates to really very good practice.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2022)

I was a cellarman. I got pulled one day for bouncing kegs off a loading bay onto a dolly bag and into the cellar, as for some reason the inspector found it to be dangerous. I told my boss to write back and say they they'd better ban every brewers's dray in the Country until a better method was found. We heard no more.
I worked on a major bridge build in '73/'74 and H&S regs were in their infancy. We had safety harnesses turn up as individual parts - rope, harnesses, carabiners etc. all seperate. It was a bitterly cold time so I sat in the welder's hut and made them up. The H&S man came round and asked who'd done them. Me, I said, and they're perfect. Just look at them - splices tapered, sailmaker's whippings. Have you a ticket to say you're qualified? No. Well we can't use them. OK, I said, use them until another lot turn up (strikes every blink of the eye - what should have taken days took months). No, he said, I can't allow it. For another three months we worked with no harnesses.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2022)

I apologise to the OP for the thread hijack.


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## tibi (16 Apr 2022)

TominDales said:


> No you will be fine doing this in a ventilated shed. Just don't slosh solvent around willy-nilly. If you spill it, wipe it up and then leave the room for a bit.
> 
> Masks of that sort eg *N95 will be of no use* as the solvent will diffuse through them in the air, the molecules are tiny they are about 10^-9m in diameter whereas N95 is designed to filter-out particles (eg covid19 droplets) that are 10^-6m in diameter about 1000 times bigger.
> 
> ...


Do you think that I can use a stainless steel bowl for bain-marie (where I will put turpentine, BLO, beeswax and carnauba wax) or there can be some bad reaction with nickel or chromium? Thanks.


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## TominDales (16 Apr 2022)

tibi said:


> Do you think that I can use a stainless steel bowl for bain-marie (where I will put turpentine, BLO, beeswax and carnauba wax) or there can be some bad reaction with nickel or chromium? Thanks.


Yes it is pretty perfect for this job. Steel, stainless steel or Pyrex will be fine. Stainless better than mild steel. Although there may be some iron and chromium sites on the metal that catalyse the turps oxidising, the surface area of a polished pot is so small that it has a negligible effect.


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