# An alternative to designing?



## dicktimber (17 Oct 2008)

I am on my way with sketch up, but when using it I find,
Time passes like life
Perspective is difficult to visualize without a tape rule on my lap
and all the time valuable time has been lost in the shop, actually making stuff!!!!
Previously,I would look at furniture mags and then visit, take dimensions....a bit like Norm does..make a quick sketch, couple of photos and start making.
Norm does give you the option of buying his plans, which comes to my question.
Can anyone direct me to a supplier for sets of plans that can be obtained to cut out the time spent designing??
or is that a thing of the past?

Mike


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## wizer (17 Oct 2008)

You can obtain NYW plan through Brimarc. For other plans, just do a google search for 'Woodworking Plans' There are hundreds out there.

Personally I couldn't bare to make something else exactly to someone else's design. But I do understand the need to make something to exact specifications.


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## Steve Maskery (17 Oct 2008)

MIke
This is a good subject to discuss. Almost every woody has started by making something to a published design. Mine was probably from a wartime Woodworker (no, I'm not that old, but my dad had a stash and that was my first woodwork mag influence). I remember making some puzzles from WW as a kid and those same puzzles are still around today in gift and craft shops.

The problem with published designs are that they are rarely ideal for the reader. Something I make for myself I may write up and Nick may publish it, but that doesn't meant that it is ideal for you, or even that I would make it exactly the same again if I were to repeat the project. So I regard anything that that I write about as a guide, encouragement, dare I say inspiration, for anyone following in my wake, just as I was guided, encouraged and inspired by those who wrote before me. Rarely do I say "do this, do that", I usually say" I did this and that, but you might prefer to do t'other and which". I actually think that this approach is very important, as it makes the inexperienced reader realize that actually, there is rarely a "right" answer to a design problem, and those of us who write are not gurus, we are just woodies recording our work. Sure, there are some well-established design principles (Golden Section, Hambridge rectangles, for example) but all that is a starting point, not a straight-jacket.

I'm particularly pleased to see David Savage writing about design in British Woodworking magazine, I'm looking forward to seeing how he develops his argument as the months go by.

My own design journey has been one of watch and devour, always learning from the expertise, and sometimes the mistakes, of others. Mr T is currently publicizing the Northern Contemporary Furnituremaker's exhibition, and shows like this, and Betty Norbury's at Cheltenham, are fantastic opportunities to be inspired and get new ideas for design influences. I'm not suggesting copying, much less plagiarism ( I speak as someone who has recently had one of my mag articles plagiarized!), but I don't think there is a woody in history who would not acknowledge the influence of others who have gone before.

By all means make something from a plan, but you'll soon start thinking "Wouldn't it be better if I changed....."

Cheers
Steve


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## wizer (17 Oct 2008)

Steve, you appear to have put that much better than I did. I do like to read how something was made, but I always want to put my own slant on it. Otherwise, what's the point?


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## dicktimber (18 Oct 2008)

Steve, Wizzer,
Interesting points..
You can be the best craftsman in the business, building from set drawings, make the most fantastic furniture..but when it comes to design, they don't have a clue.


I would love to hear comments from people that make drawings the old way.
Full size or to scale...
Produce rods
Then make a proto type..
Them make the actual item.

In this day of computer aided design, not even the professionals get it right.
I remember many parts of Eurofighter miss matching, and the overall length growing due to design error...and these guys are professionals.

As you say it is an interesting subject, which I believe is covered at University degree level, so although I have my way of setting out, drawing and then producing, it would be nice to hear how it is taught today.

Mike


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## JonnyD (19 Oct 2008)

I have got a degree in furniture and product design. Things might have changed a bit as i graduated in the late 90's. 

The design process usually consisted of.

Lots of freehand sketches and development of ideas using pen and paper

Development using scale models

Full size mockups using softwood cardboard etc

AutoCad drawings after design had been mocked up

Making using full size drawings rods etc or computer visualisation in 3d studio.

Finally presentation of project to class and tutors 

Down the pub afterwards.

Now after working for myself for a few years i tend to measure up produce a quick sketch and then make it. I have wasted hours producing accurate drawings for clients only not to have got the job or been too expensive etc. 

jon


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## dicktimber (19 Oct 2008)

Jon,
Thats very interesting.
I worked in aerospace (not as a designer)
All the new aircraft were designed in a similar way.
If you worked on the prototype build you could always go down to the wooden mock up that was full size and see how things were supposed to fit together.
I could get my head round this proven process, but things changed with Airbus.
In their later builds they decided to do away with the full size model, which was a brave decision to save money and time.
To this day I have no idea how thousands of people design different parts and they come together to make a huge thing like the A380.!!
For me making a sketch and then drawing, then a prototype (but not in every case ) works.
I am not a professional cabinet or furniture maker but by building a prototype you can try new techniques and processes knowing it is only a mock up. You make cock ups on inexpensive wood, which has saved me money time and time again
I suppose that if you are doing this for a living experience will play a big part, knowing what will be functional and also look right.


Interesting subject.

Mike


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## JonnyD (19 Oct 2008)

I think experience plays a big part in knowing what looks right and whether something is going to work from a technical point of view. For me it just comes naturally due to working with wood everyday for the last 10 years and a design background.

I think the mockup is far more valuable than a sketchup model. Something you can see full size with the proportions in front of you allows you to see whether the design will work or not and make subtle changes. My mockups tend to be made from cardboard or mdf scraps so cost very little to make.

jon


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## dicktimber (19 Oct 2008)

I have always used cheap white wood....off cuts from the builder next door!!!!!!
But I will try MDF and cardboard on my next project.

While you are here, when you design drawers what thickness and grade ply wood would you use, as an alternative to solid say maple for the box construction?



Mike


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## Mr T (19 Oct 2008)

Hi

Some of you may know that I do not find Sketchup easy. The main reason I am trying to master it is as a presentation tool for customers.

Most of my designing takes place while I am driving, which I do a lot of, visiting aging parents. I can conceptualise a design and work out possible problems in my head. Then when I get home I try drawing it out to see if the concept works. I find with sketchup at the moment that lack of fluency interferes with getting the design from my head to the screen.

Once I have drawn a design I may make a mock up, mainly so the customer can visualise it. The next stage is a full size drawing or a rod if the thing is large such as a kitchen. It is at this point that I work out the jointing and finalise proportions. Making the rod or FS drawing is almost like a ritual marking the start of a new piece, I don't feel I have started properly until I have done it.

I would recommend working from your own designs. It is easier to visualise the finished piece if you have designed it, and the buzz from making it is greater if its been all your own work. In fact I can't remember ever making from someone elses plans,even when I did it as a hobby.

Chris


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## JonnyD (19 Oct 2008)

Hi Mike I tend to use solid wood for drawers but i have used plywood when budget dictates. I usually use a 12mm russian or finnish birch plywood bb grade usually bought in 5ft square sheets.

jon


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## dicktimber (19 Oct 2008)

Thanks jon,
I will try some on next project.

Mike


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## joiner_sim (1 Nov 2008)

Everyday, I work with wood, making windows and doors. I find all the fun is taken out of the job because everythings already been designed. It is only when a bay window has to be set out, or an arch that I enjoy woodworking for money really.

At home, I love making furniture or whatever else it maybe.

I tend to usually just draw the item i want to make first. I draw a couple of pictures with different variations, and then choose which one looks the best of them. I then decide what the overall dimentions are to be, height, width & length. I then make up a cutting list and then the timber is machined. The rest is made as the project runs. Sometimes I draw profiles of the timber if details are required, but thats about it!


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## mailee (2 Nov 2008)

I use Sketchup for my designs but I first visualise the finished piece in my head and then put it down as a rough sketch and then transfer it to Sketchup. Normally I don't go into any great detail in sketchup but add enough info for me to build it. It also comes in handy for showing the customer how it will look in 3D rather than a flat drawing. I seem to have the hang of judging the scale with Sketchup but have on occasion made the odd mistake.  I never bother with a mock up of the article although I have used this method on the odd occasion with a difficult piece. It does take time to design but IMHO it is time well spent. Oh and by the way I have never built anything from a shop bought plan other than model aeroplanes.


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## ike (2 Nov 2008)

Some can visualise better than others who find visual aids such as CAD essential. In my experience, I always start freehand - pencil and notepad, then 2D CAD to pin down dimensions/proportions, then (but not always) 3D modelling as necessary for the final 'sell' and approval. 

Whoever can jump to a finished article from no more than a rough sketch, then you are blessed with talent!

Ike


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## ByronBlack (13 Nov 2008)

Despite being computer literate and a trained designer, I cannot get on with sketchup, working with it feels wrong and I can never make it do what I want it to.

I find it x100 times faster to sketch with pencil and paper, working out relationships on a smaller scale. I use my imagination to 'see' how it will look in real scale, and work out dimensions against known sizes depending on how/where it's going to be used.

Once I have a sketch and the main dimensions, I'll tweak and add/remove aspects as I along - very much like Krenov, I try to see how the wood looks and make ammendments according to my eye as I go along. I'm too lazy to make rods or full-scale plans. I would only do that if I were making multiples of items; which so far I've not had to do.


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## ddashk (5 Dec 2008)

i like sketchup because it is so basic and intuitive. it won't give you a professional looking model but its free and quicker to use than say rhino3d or inventor.
i think a series of mockups are invaluable if you think it looks a bit oiff you just go again. not as easy when its finished in oak


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## SketchUp Guru (5 Dec 2008)

ddashk":8scwo5v8 said:


> i like sketchup because it is so basic and intuitive. it won't give you a professional looking model but its free and quicker to use than say rhino3d or inventor.
> i think a series of mockups are invaluable if you think it looks a bit oiff you just go again. not as easy when its finished in oak



Could you explain what you mean by "it won't give you a professional looking model?" I don't agree with that statement at all.


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## ddashk (6 Dec 2008)

i mean you couldn't do stuff like this


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Dec 2008)

No, huh?


























:roll:


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## ddashk (6 Dec 2008)

that level of detail requires hours of time in a rendering program. sketchup is not as good as other programs in terms of the model before rendering. if it was it wouldn't be free.
don't get me wrong i love sketchup. if you look at things i have posted you will see i use it all the time. but i am a student and can't afford other packages. firms wouldn't pay huge money for packages if they could get the same results from sketchup.


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Dec 2008)

The blanket chest and bed was done with freeware. The others with Podium which isn't expensive. I didn't do those but the blanket chest render was about 20 minutes. Not hours.

I don't think the average woodworker needs to bother with rendering to photographic level anyway.


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## wizer (6 Dec 2008)

Sketchup is cropping up in a lot of places where Autocad used to be the only viable option. It's also making CAD much more accessible to those not trained in the subject.


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## ddashk (7 Dec 2008)

i agree that sketchup is perfect for the "average woodworker" probably above average. i still think however that a professional package does deliver a better image. i realise that this level of detail won't apply to most people but there is a professional environment where a sketchup model looks below par. also packages like inventor can export tool paths which is a huge advantage for firms where cnc machines are used


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## SketchUp Guru (7 Dec 2008)

If your only criteria for a professional images is photo-realism, no, SketchUp won't do that out of the box. On the other hand, it never was intended for that. However, it does what it was designed to do and more. I think it is unfair to compare it to other applications to which it was never intended as a competitor. It was designed to be a _sketching_ program.

It is pointless to belittle it in the context of the way most people around here tend to use it. It seems a bit like saying the Saw Stop is lousy for slicing cheese.


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## ddashk (7 Dec 2008)

in my comparison i said it was quicker and easier to use.i was not belittling it. i just commented that there are other programs which deliver a more photo-realistic image. i if read my original post i was making the point that it would be perfect for byronblack as its quick and easy nature seemed to suit his style.


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## ByronBlack (20 Dec 2008)

ddashk":397z6axq said:


> in my comparison i said it was quicker and easier to use.i was not belittling it. i just commented that there are other programs which deliver a more photo-realistic image. i if read my original post i was making the point that it would be perfect for byronblack as its quick and easy nature seemed to suit his style.



I don't know about that. I've spent hours trying to work wth sketchup, and I just don't 'get' it. It seems to take me ages to do something that would take me minutes on paper. I just don't find it intuitive, for me it's cumbersome and fiddly.


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## Chems (20 Dec 2008)

ByronBlack":zp4glfrb said:


> Despite being computer literate and a trained designer, I cannot get on with sketchup, working with it feels wrong and I can never make it do what I want it to.
> 
> I find it x100 times faster to sketch with pencil and paper, working out relationships on a smaller scale. I use my imagination to 'see' how it will look in real scale, and work out dimensions against known sizes depending on how/where it's going to be used.
> 
> Once I have a sketch and the main dimensions, I'll tweak and add/remove aspects as I along - very much like Krenov, I try to see how the wood looks and make ammendments according to my eye as I go along. I'm too lazy to make rods or full-scale plans. I would only do that if I were making multiples of items; which so far I've not had to do.



I'm exactly the same, I can make hugly complex 3D Models in the top programs. But when it comes to woodwork I get out the pencil and go to town. 

What I do find cad excellent for is if I want to work out the proportions of a piece of furniture in relation to a room, I can mock up the room and other items of furniture in box format then size my piece from that.


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