# dowel plates are pricey!



## PerranOak (17 Oct 2010)

I want to be able to make dowels down to 3mm for decoration, pinning, etc. Therefore, they need to made from the wood that I'm using.

The Lie-Nielsen one is £40!

Any cheaper ones around?

I tried using a drill to drive a rough dowel through a 3mm hole in a piece of steel but they always end-up a bit, well, wonky!


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## woodbloke (17 Oct 2010)

I have the LN metric plate and it's worth the outlay in my view...nice piece of kit for occasional use - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (17 Oct 2010)

I also have the LN dowel plate . While it is a bit expensive, it's very well made and works well.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## PerranOak (17 Oct 2010)

Cheers. £40 though!

Do you hammer them through?


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## Jacob (17 Oct 2010)

I asked a local engineering firm to make one from a piece of tool steel. £25
They need to be set firmly in a bench top IMHO as you do have to give them a good bashing.


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## barkwindjammer (17 Oct 2010)

RichardT is watching this post with interest, tool steel, per quoi ?


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## Karl (17 Oct 2010)

barkwindjammer":n7xs8rb3 said:


> RichardT is watching this post with interest, tool steel, per quoi ?



Good idea. I'd been weighing up the LN version, of which they handily make two - imperial and metric. Surely they could be built into one plate :? 

Cheers

Karl


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## Jacob (17 Oct 2010)

barkwindjammer":6prvzwh3 said:


> RichardT is watching this post with interest, tool steel, per quoi ?


If "per quoi" means "what's that" , then I don't know. He said it was "tool steel" and that's all I know. The holes are tapered slightly
PS as Aled decribes below, re LN
but straight sided for the top 1mm or so. You could have them drilled in any diameters to suit - but it's handy to have them in a close series so that you can work down e.g. 1/8" at a time.


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## Aled Dafis (17 Oct 2010)

I made one from tool steel, it's OK, but to make a proper one you really need to ream the holes to achieve the surface finish inside the hole. The LN one also has the holes tapered on the reverse side to provide some clearance for the wood as it's cut/scraped.

The outlay in setting yourself up for making proper dowel plates is quite scary, say 6 or 7 reamers, and then 6 or 7 taper reamers to suit :shock: 

Cheers

Aled

Edit: Must have been typing the same time as Mr Grim.

In my case, the tool steel was O1 gauge plate.


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## PerranOak (17 Oct 2010)

Blimey!

How hard do you have to hit them? :shock:


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## barkwindjammer (17 Oct 2010)

Per quoi, I'm a cynical pineapple at heart, RichardT made some exquisite holdfasts, DibsH made an award winning router table insert-butt, these simple items looked mega complicated-only if you read all the bumf that was written about 'trajectory angles, scuffing powder, maleable vectors, secondary bovines, spirodile graphite etc etc etc :? 

the old guys didn't have 'news of the world' type smatrarsery to hand, so they kept it simple stupid-KISS
steel of any grade is far tougher than nancy wood-hammer oak roundish sticks through the hole in a motorvehicular brake disc mounting bolt hole and what do you get ?

re-ass uringly expensive was a phrase invented by 'Stella Artois' not our dear departed friend Niki

get some 5mm steel plate and drill some holes


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## woodbloke (17 Oct 2010)

PerranOak":p83ahx1k said:


> Blimey!
> 
> How hard do you have to hit them? :shock:



Hard :shock: :shock: ...try making 4mm dowels in Indian Ebony - Rob


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## Richard T (17 Oct 2010)

Hmmm... I guess the holes could be tapered underneath with the very top circle reamed to size ... Tool steel yes, but hardened to what? Or not? 
Getting these things as good as they can be may well make them tres expensive en par with the £40 tag. 
I suspect that Jacob's plate is a standard tool steel - normalised; so tough, not hard and drilled accurately - not reamed. And that dowel you've knocked out there Jacob is the best I've seen - better than results of the profesh made ones I've seen. 
Leading me to surmise that all that may be needed is some tool steel plate, a centre punch and a drill press ? (pilot holes first to stop any judder) 
Also looks like a very good idea to have thin plate mounted on wood like Jacob has - this disposes of the tapered undersides in metal. 
Dammit; I think I just talked myself out of a job ...


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## mtt.tr (17 Oct 2010)

Aled Dafis":16kz688f said:


> The outlay in setting yourself up for making proper dowel plates is quite scary, say 6 or 7 reamers, and then 6 or 7 taper reamers to suit :shock:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...



well i have reamers so somebody give me the sizes then this wil go on the very big project list


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## Jacob (17 Oct 2010)

Richard T":3i4f26n3 said:


> Hmmm... I guess the holes could be tapered underneath with the very top circle reamed to size ...


or vice versa - drilled and then the taper reamed to just short of the face


> ...
> Also looks like a very good idea to have thin plate mounted on wood like Jacob has - this disposes of the tapered undersides in metal.
> .....


 About 3/8" as far as I remember, and tapered. Doesn't need to be hardened - just tough, as you have to whack them hard. Start with a split (down the grain) billet as near the size as you can get. 4" long probably max.
They come out not quite straight and a less than perfect surface, but straight grained (strong) and ideal as pegs for M&T joints , draw-bored or otherwise.


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## monkeybiter (18 Oct 2010)

To begin with I'd counter bore if you don't have taper reamers, eg. for a 10mm dowel 2mm at 10mm and the rest of the plate thickness at 11mm diameter. I would also think that finish would be improved by few very hefty whacks rather than a lot of timid taps. 

Hardenable carbon steel 'gauge plate' is available from model engineering suppliers in various thicknesses and small quantities.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Gauge_Plate__Ground_Flat_Stock_285.html


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## Jacob (18 Oct 2010)

I forgot to add - one of the benefits of the dowel plate is that only a straight grained piece will get through. If the grain is crossed it'll break as you hammer it.
So it self-selects straight grained dowels, which are strongest.


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## Richard T (18 Oct 2010)

Aha - reading too fast and not listening enough - they _are_ tapered holes. Ok. 
Sounds like something most safely done on a milling machine - or at least a drill press with much more solidity than mine. 
Though, if Bill Carver can peen gauge plate into dovetails, it should be possible to cold drift it .... I'll think about that, then have a nice lie down.


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## bugbear (18 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1lsj1q6c said:


> I asked a local engineering firm to make one from a piece of tool steel. £25
> They need to be set firmly in a bench top IMHO as you do have to give them a good bashing.



You got a new camera? Your posts have suddenly become very ... "visual".

BugBear (impressed)


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## Jacob (18 Oct 2010)

bugbear":1tdf1mgy said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":1tdf1mgy said:
> 
> 
> > I asked a local engineering firm to make one from a piece of tool steel. £25
> ...


Gee thanks BB!
Old photos from an old thread. Work of seconds to copy/paste the image urls.


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## Richard T (18 Oct 2010)

Thanks for the link M. Monkeybiter - 3/8" 2"x6" gauge plate £13.85. Hmm... Ground-flat gauge plate for a plane sole maybe, but for this, I think if I were going to make one for me I'd look out for a substantial scrap leaf spring. 
I did have half of one but it is now a froe


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## Alf (18 Oct 2010)

Richard T":2xu8enlr said:


> And that dowel you've knocked out there Jacob is the best I've seen - better than results of the profesh made ones I've seen.


Yebbut you can't see the pile of 'em just out of shot that he picked over to find the good one... :wink: :lol: 

A DIY example here and some discussion on making your own, including not over-thinking it, here.


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## Jacob (18 Oct 2010)

Alf":3pdmjr7c said:


> Richard T":3pdmjr7c said:
> 
> 
> > And that dowel you've knocked out there Jacob is the best I've seen - better than results of the profesh made ones I've seen.
> ...


Yebbut that's exactly what you do. It's scrap wood anyway so it's already waste. You bang as many through as you need and select from the results. Some don't make it at all, some are a bit short, some are perfect. It doesn't take very long to build up a collection.


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## bugbear (18 Oct 2010)

Alf":1abnjc41 said:


> Richard T":1abnjc41 said:
> 
> 
> > And that dowel you've knocked out there Jacob is the best I've seen - better than results of the profesh made ones I've seen.
> ...



When I've used my (old, cheap, car boot, obviously ;-) ) dowel plate, I find that 3" long is about as long as they'll go, and using straight grained stock is crucial. I make my blanks out in my firewood store, using my kindling splitter. Riving, not sawing.

And don't try to get your plate to remove "much" stock; your initial blank 
needs to be quite good.

Dowel plates are a "good enough" tool, intended to be handy and versatile.

If you want to make a lot of dowels, you'd move to a "tine cutter", as used by traditional rake makers. These are a steel tube, sharpened. They thus have a proper cutting action - or at least a better cutting action than a 90 degree arris on a plate!

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53405

(I've linked to the whole thread on the grounds that it's QI).

BugBear


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## Jacob (18 Oct 2010)

Yes the dowel plate is for pegs which are going to be out of sight, except for the ends. Some of them may be perfect though.
It used to be a standard item in every wood workshop.


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## GazPal (18 Oct 2010)

We'd often gauge a length of steel tube, correct it's bore size to the desired diameter - using a drill or reamer - before cutting teeth into one end of the pipe. Mount it in a drill/onto an arbor and it can be used to cut both plugs and short lengths of dowel or as a screw rescue tool.


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## Ironballs (18 Oct 2010)

For the sake of 40 quid it's a lot of faff avoided to just buy one that works very well. I've used my LN plate to make some very well finished oak dowel - it's still hard work twatting the smeggers through though


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## bugbear (18 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1zlnhfzg said:


> Yes the dowel plate is for pegs which are going to be out of sight, except for the ends. Some of them may be perfect though.
> It used to be a standard item in every wood workshop.



I'm not convinced of that. I've attended a lot of local auctions, car boots etc, and seen a LOT of tools, even specialist ones.

I don't think I've seen more than 5 dowel plates in all that time - I've seen more crozes than that!

BugBear


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## Jacob (18 Oct 2010)

Of course I don't really know, but dowels were used in many, many jobs. Where would they have got them from? Not individually whittled.
I reckon some workshop stuff gets dumped at the point in time when nobody can remember what it was for. Draw bore pins for example - could have involved a lot of head scratching for executors of a dead joiners estate.
So they, and other ephemera, disappear from view.


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## Alf (18 Oct 2010)

bugbear":20t5zbmk said:


> I don't think I've seen more than 5 dowel plates in all that time - I've seen more crozes than that!


You're just showing off now... :wink: 

And I don't want to give the impression I'm against the LN plate and anyone has to make their own or scour the car boot for an old one in amongst the stacks of crozes. I have an LN myself and it's very good at its job. It was also a bit cheaper back then, which helped.


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## bugbear (18 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":3ufk3acv said:


> I reckon some workshop stuff gets dumped at the point in time when nobody can remember what it was for. Draw bore pins for example - could have involved a lot of head scratching for executors of a dead joiners estate.
> So they, and other ephemera, disappear from view.



Nah - the clearers just chuck all the unidentified stuff into one or more boxes/drawers, which are sold as "mixed lots".

In some cases, drawers are simply removed from cabinets, and sold "whole".

Auctioneers and house clearers don't worry overmuch about identifying stuff, they just sell it, and leave sorting/dumping to the purchaser.

BugBear

(edit; I'd said identified which is exactly wrong!)


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## woodbloke (18 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":ivtewwww said:


> It doesn't take very long to build up a collection.


At last...an admission of being a 'collector'...welcome to the club :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## bugbear (18 Oct 2010)

googling has revealed this helpful thread on using a dowel plate to best effect.

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine- ... -plate-how

BugBear


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## PerranOak (19 Oct 2010)

Problem is, I don't live in a scrap metal yard and don't have steel plates hanging around ... lots of scrap wood (or "projects" as I call them!) but not metal.

I tried an old stell rule but it's too thin.

I could drill a hole in SWMBO's car somewhere? :lol:


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## Sportique (19 Oct 2010)

Hmmm I must be missing something from all you pros .

I would either run the four arrises over a 1/4 round router bit in a router table (leave BOTH ends uncut for support) and cut the dowels from the middle. Or, put the blank in the lathe.

I suppose these methods are unlikely to yield straight grained dowels - this seems important? and both methods take a bit of set-up/time to do.

I've got me coat ...

Dave


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## Jacob (19 Oct 2010)

Sportique":fkdqslci said:


> .....
> I suppose these methods are unlikely to yield straight grained dowels - this seems important?


Essential


> and both methods take a bit of set-up/time to do....


They certainly would! Whereas a dowel plate would be the work of seconds. And you get down to 3/16" (or less if you want)


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## mtr1 (19 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":12pyiic9 said:


> Of course I don't really know, but dowels were used in many, many jobs. Where would they have got them from? Not individually whittled.



I've made miles of oak dowel, every piece of furniture we made at English house(gone now) had pegged joints. We were on a price, so didn't have time to mess about with dowel plates. Quickest way to do them is to use one of these...









You soon get good at planing accurately, I make mine about 2' long, and the jig costs b ugger all.


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## bugbear (20 Oct 2010)

mtr1":1zit5nve said:


> I've made miles of oak dowel, every piece of furniture we made at English house(gone now) had pegged joints. We were on a price, so didn't have time to mess about with dowel plates. Quickest way to do them is to use one of these...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chuckle. I've made a few garden tool handles in just that way, just on a bigger scale.

Roughly how round did you make your dowels - 8 facets, 16 (Ish)?

I've been checking the old catalogues (such as I have). Strangely the 1000+ page Buck + Hickmans don't list dowel plates (I have 1935, 1953, 1958, 1964). But my 1920's Tyzack and Melhuish do, as well as a tiny (28page) Collier Tools "leaflet" and my 1906 Preston reprint. One of them (memory fails) listed 4 different sizes, as well as a "call us for prices on hole sizes not listed here".

All this implies that dowel plates were quite widely used - although one catalogue also listed ready made dowels, despite being a tool catalogue.

BugBear


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## Alf (20 Oct 2010)

bugbear":2gbva5vk said:


> I've been checking the old catalogues (such as I have). Strangely the 1000+ page Buck + Hickmans don't list dowel plates (I have 1935, 1953, 1958, 1964). But my 1920's Tyzack and Melhuish do, as well as a tiny (28page) Collier Tools "leaflet" and my 1906 Preston reprint. One of them (memory fails) listed 4 different sizes, as well as a "call us for prices on hole sizes not listed here".


_Five_ sizes in the '34 and '38 Marples catalogues. None at all, however, in Ross & Alexander '38 or any of four MAC catalogues over the same sort of period (which is as surprising as them failing to appear in B&H). Just for interest to give a handle on relative prices, a Marples plate (1938 list price) for 5 holes, 1/4"-1/2" was 2/10 while a 1" boxwood carver-handled bevel-edged chisel was 2/5. You can get a LN plate _with more holes_ for significantly less than their 1" chisel... :wink:


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## woodbloke (20 Oct 2010)

Alf, BB...you need to get out more! :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## mtr1 (20 Oct 2010)

bugbear":10pwluxt said:


> mtr1":10pwluxt said:
> 
> 
> > I've made miles of oak dowel, every piece of furniture we made at English house(gone now) had pegged joints. We were on a price, so didn't have time to mess about with dowel plates. Quickest way to do them is to use one of these...
> ...



I guess 16 ish, when you jam them in the holes they look round. But if your fussed about it being round when its in your hand, you can give it a quick sand. I'm certainly not saying people didn't use them in days of yore(or now), I have one I inherited off my grandad(also a cabinetmaker) made from something similar to grims I think. Its just that when you are on a price you find the best way to do things that suits your way of working. Just takes a bit of practice, if I did one in front of you, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. The other advantage to planed, is that they aren't compressed, so if you have a 10mmx100mm hole to drive into the chances are a compressed dowel might swell when in contact with the gludge, and may snap. Mine also doesn't cost anything, and that was important for me when I was on £1.25hr. Just an alternitive veiw from someone who wouldn't dream of paying £40/£50 for a metal plate with holes in.


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## lanemaux (21 Oct 2010)

I have been thinking of making a dowel plate for myself and wonder if an old lawnmower blade might not work. In the dumps in Canada these blades are all over the place,just a wrench and a grunt away as it were. Any thoughts from the more experienced on this?


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## lanemaux (21 Oct 2010)

I have been thinking of making a dowel plate and wonder if it could not be done from an old lawnmower blade? We have these by the hundreds in the dump in Canada,just a wrench and a grunt away as it were. Any thoughts from the more experienced?


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2010)

> .... The other advantage to planed, is that they aren't compressed, ....


Dowel plate doesn't compress either. The taper is on the underside, the top edge of the hole is effectively a crude cutter/scraper (see photos in earlier post).
Dowel pate is strictly for pegs for pegged M&Ts, for which it is ideal. They are a bit less than perfect but that is OK. 
But if I wanted a neatly made "rod" I'd plane the same as mtr1. Rake makers use a tine cutter as BB says. Dowel plate wouldn't be good for tines.


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## bugbear (21 Oct 2010)

lanemaux":ismp0pdx said:


> I have been thinking of making a dowel plate and wonder if it could not be done from an old lawnmower blade? We have these by the hundreds in the dump in Canada,just a wrench and a grunt away as it were. Any thoughts from the more experienced?



There's an episode of The Woodwright's Shop where St. Roy Underhill makes a Stail Engine. He uses a lawn mower blade, which he hardens and tempers.

So I'm guessing that (at least some) mower blades are a high enough carbon steel for that to be meaningful.

There are references on other forums to people using ordinary mild steel, and the cutting "edges" becoming rounded very quickly.

BugBear (claiming knowledge but not experience)


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## bugbear (21 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":2b7ur8qp said:


> Dowel pate is strictly for pegs for pegged M&Ts, for which it is ideal.



Good enough for a dowelled edge-joint too, surely?

BugBear


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2010)

bugbear":284lwaf8 said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":284lwaf8 said:
> 
> 
> > Dowel pate is strictly for pegs for pegged M&Ts, for which it is ideal.
> ...


I suppose so, though it's not a traditional joint. Machined joint - machined dowels perhaps?


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## bugbear (21 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":18ioucs6 said:


> bugbear":18ioucs6 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr G Rimsdale":18ioucs6 said:
> ...



Doesn't strike me as a "machined joint". Just a way of aligning two boards at the glueing stage. The joint is prepared just as you would for a butt joint, then you drill some holes.

Perhaps dowelled joints became popular when glues other than hide became available. A rubbed, (non clamped) joint can't be dowelled.

If your glue needs clamping, dowels become appealing.

BugBear


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## bugbear (21 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":r1njhrjd said:


> But if I wanted a neatly made "rod" I'd plane the same as mtr1.



I just checked back - mtr1 was planing them for speed, not (just?) neatness.



mtr1":r1njhrjd said:


> We were on a price, so didn't have time to mess about with dowel plates. _*Quickest*_ way to do them is to use one of these...



(My emphasis)

BugBear


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2010)

bugbear":196bnytn said:


> ...
> 
> Perhaps dowelled joints became popular when glues other than hide became available. A rubbed, (non clamped) joint can't be dowelled.
> 
> ...


Could be. 

Re widespread use of dowels as pegs, usually through the M&T: you find them in just about every trad window, in many trad framed doors (inc furniture) and other structures
Often they are square - or started life as square - just a roughly riven piece split with an axe, then hammered into a round hole. 
You wouldn't know this as by the time they have been forced in, they have been squashed round, and in fact tapered as they get progressively squashed on the way through. But the square edge tends to leave a clue on the side where the peg was inserted - you see two little ears, the end of the dowel shaped like a grain of corn, where the square edge has most resisted being squashed, and also worn the edge of the hole.
So a lot were done without dowel plate or round dowels.
Reason? - round holes are easy to produce, round dowels are less so.


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## bugbear (21 Oct 2010)

bugbear":15qouxtm said:


> googling has revealed this helpful thread on using a dowel plate to best effect.
> 
> http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine- ... -plate-how
> 
> BugBear



"Lataxe" in that thread said: "I like to ensure a good start by pencil-sharpening the end of the square stock."

I've just been reading Modern Carpentry And Joinery, and he says 



Ellis":15qouxtm said:


> The pins should be made of some tough hardwood, such as oak or beech, cleft in the direction of the grain; roughly trimmed to a round section, then *pointed* and driven through the dowel plate".



BugBear


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## mtr1 (21 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":2yhunvas said:


> > .... The other advantage to planed, is that they aren't compressed, ....
> 
> 
> Dowel plate doesn't compress either. The taper is on the underside, the top edge of the hole is effectively a crude cutter/scraper (see photos in earlier post).
> ...



Does from my experience. All the dowels we used to make had to be individually tapered with a chisel too. These were high quality repro's for the Dutch market and had to look authentic(fake almost :lol: ), you taper your dowel before even thinking about jamming it the hole, but I am talking about draw boring which is how they were all made. I was lucky in that I can say, I have made 16th/17th oak furniture the same as that period, including being at the bottom of the pit. 

Just had a look at my dowel plate and that isn't tapered so might be why mine came out compressed when I used it. But it was slow anyway, my way is faster and cheaper/free and the hole cant tell the difference. Seems like another expensive tool that no one needs, only no one can make money off the back of mine, as a two year old could make it. 
Just like honing jig's. yet another way to diminish your hand skills (takes cover) :lol: :lol:


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## mtr1 (21 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":35spsr18 said:


> bugbear":35spsr18 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr G Rimsdale":35spsr18 said:
> ...



A doweled edge joint is very traditional Jacob, seen it on old oak tables and all sorts of other older oak furniture that I have restored. Like I said above every method we used was authentic to the period of the piece we worked on. I know this because we used to buy all the older pieces from auctions and either retsore if economical or marry up(and take apart) two together.


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2010)

mtr1":2njzevqx said:


> ...
> A doweled edge joint is very traditional Jacob, seen it on old oak tables and all sorts of other older oak furniture that I have restored. .....


Well I've never seen one in trad joinery ever. Have seen draw-bored loose tenons joining board edges, but never a dowel until you get to later machine made furniture. I'm not saying they weren't used - just not in my experience, though I haven't had much experience with expensive top end furniture. Have handled posh joinery though.


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## mtr1 (21 Oct 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1prmja2q said:


> Well I've never seen one in trad joinery ever. Have seen draw-bored loose tenons joining board edges, but never a dowel until you get to later machine made furniture. I'm not saying they weren't used - just not in my experience, though I haven't had much experience with expensive top end furniture. Have handled posh joinery though.



Not likely too, there aren't many sash windows in a castle :lol: The method you describe loose tenon etc is later than just a doweled joint Incidentally, and is seen in more rustic furniture in my experience.


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## bugbear (22 Oct 2010)

mtr1":qzjvc990 said:


> I was lucky in that I can say, I have made 16th/17th oak furniture the same as that period, including being at the bottom of the pit.



That's .. impressive!

BugBear


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## mtr1 (22 Oct 2010)

bugbear":3bxq0un9 said:


> mtr1":3bxq0un9 said:
> 
> 
> > I was lucky in that I can say, I have made 16th/17th oak furniture the same as that period, including being at the bottom of the pit.
> ...



Only when I was top dog, did it seem impressive. I spent three months at the bottom however, still not many people can beat me arm wresting now so happy days :lol:


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## studders (22 Oct 2010)

mtr1":2n8qdpv3 said:


> a two year old could make it.



Yeah but, there's never one around when you need em.


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