# Sharpening a draw knife.



## blackrodd (26 Oct 2015)

I've just acquired a draw knife, to shape some oak and give the carpenters axe and my right arm a change.
It arrived well packaged and very sharp, but it needs to stay that way, It's 8" wide cut and made in sheffield. 
I really didn't want to do this, but having googled sharpening a draw knife, various methods came up, mostly knife to the stone, which, as the rounded bottom edge, which I assume is acting as a fence or limiter for the depth of cut, a skill 
acquired by frequent use of the knife, I would think.
So, you folk that use and hone these draw knives, how do you hold and hone?
I've watched the Curtis Buchanan vids and Village Carpenter, Lie Nielson vids too.
Village Carpenter is the one I favour as his holding, stone to the knife technique my sharpening skills, will probably work out best as this is a little different from controlling chisels and planer blades safely!
Thanks and regards Rodders


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## Cheshirechappie (26 Oct 2015)

The late (and much missed) RichardT posted some time ago that he rested one end of the drawknife on the bench against a stop of some sort, and the other against his chest held by his off hand. He then used a thickish honing stone, held in such a way that his fingers were on the sides of the stone behind the working face, and thus couldn't come into contact with the cutting edge.

I use a very similar technique, with one end of the non-cutting face of the stone resting on the palm of my hand, thumb on one side and second, third and small fingers gripping the other, with index finger pointing along it providing a bit of pressure. As with Richard's grip, the fingers and thumb are behind the working surface of the stone, and thus protected. It's still worth paying attention whilst honing, though - and it doesn't work with a thin stone!

Grinding was another problem, which I overcame by freehanding on a Tormek wetstone grinder. The trick is to keep the blade on the move side to side, otherwise a nick develops in the cutting edge where it meets the stone's corner. It's slow, but with constant monitoring of where the grind is happening, quite controllable. Fortunately, drawknife grinding is only an occasional job.


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## AndyT (26 Oct 2015)

I can't claim to use it very frequently, but I do have one (well, two actually) and do use them sometimes:







I just hold the knife still, with one handle in my left hand and the other pressed against my body and gently rub the stone against the edge, using a circular motion while progressing along the length.

_Be sure that your fingers and thumb are well behind the face of the stone._

Holding one handle in the vice also works well.


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## Sheffield Tony (26 Oct 2015)

I do pretty much as CC describes. Taking the stone to the knife seems far easier, but all the warnings about watching where your fingers are are well placed, and make sure that the handle of the drawknife you aren't holding on to is securely located. Slicing cuts from a drawknife are best avoided. 

One of my friends tells me he doesn't worry too much about the drawknife being really sharp in the middle - use the middle of the blade for ripping off the bark, splitting of the bulk ... the bits at each end which get less use stay sharp longest, so can be used for finishing/fine cuts.


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## lanemaux (26 Oct 2015)

I use a 2 pronged approach. For grinding, as I haven't a wheel of any real size, I clamp a cheap and nasty dollar store stone in my workmate. The stone is fairly large and quite coarse and I apply blade to stone using much the same motion that I would while using the knife. Surprisingly few passes will get out any knicks , as I can apply a fair amount of force safely.
To get the edge sharp and fine I switch positions. The back of the blade held in the workmate, stone in hand and work through grits to remove the scratches. rocking the rounded bevel. All in all , about a 10 minute job.


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## D_W (26 Oct 2015)

Rough work with stone on or raised on a board and fine work holding the draw knife and polishing with a circular motion. 

If someone does rough work with hand on stone, it's only a matter of time before they cut themselves. Perhaps minutes, and perhaps decades.


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## Racers (26 Oct 2015)

Kevlar gloves are a must in the workshop for tricky tasks.

Pete


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## Cheshirechappie (26 Oct 2015)

Concentrating on what you're doing is a very good idea indeed when sharpening a drawknife; anybody who hasn't cut themselves with a edge tool isn't a woodworker. Always keep a few sticking-plasters handy, and learn some good old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon words to use when it does happen.


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## Andy Kev. (27 Oct 2015)

Benchcrafted have produced a jig for sharpening draw knives which is supposed to remove the safety risks and provide consistent results. I've not so much as clapped eyes on one myself but it might be worth doing a bit of Research.


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## JimB (27 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":2tkn1285 said:


> Concentrating on what you're doing is a very good idea indeed when sharpening a drawknife; anybody who hasn't cut themselves with a edge tool isn't a woodworker. Always keep a few sticking-plasters handy, and learn some good old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon words to use when it does happen.


And make sure the blood is off the tool. It can cause rust and confuse the crime scene investigators.


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## blackrodd (27 Oct 2015)

Many thanks for the replies and shared experiences.
It was not aware of how very sharp and potentially blood letting it could be until it arrived!
I would think it safest to clamp at an angle, the two extreme blade ends, 2" each side of the 8" slicing area, and then stone to the knife.
We had "Holders" like that whilst honing the 24" & 30" cutters for the wadkin planer's in the mill and workshop.
Would probably work out finger friendly.
Regards Rodders


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## D_W (27 Oct 2015)

blackrodd":1ahbkvhx said:


> Many thanks for the replies and shared experiences.
> It was not aware of how very sharp and potentially blood letting it could be until it arrived!
> I would think it safest to clamp at an angle, the two extreme blade ends, 2" each side of the 8" slicing area, and then stone to the knife.
> We had "Holders" like that whilst honing the 24" & 30" cutters for the wadkin planer's in the mill and workshop.
> ...



Now you're on it. the danger is a lateral stroke after you've made 200 successful lateral strokes and have gotten the confidence to really make the strokes with serious vummer.


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## bugbear (27 Oct 2015)

blackrodd":um4e3yq4 said:


> Many thanks for the replies and shared experiences.
> It was not aware of how very sharp and potentially blood letting it could be until it arrived!
> I would think it safest to clamp at an angle, the two extreme blade ends, 2" each side of the 8" slicing area, and then stone to the knife.
> We had "Holders" like that whilst honing the 24" & 30" cutters for the wadkin planer's in the mill and workshop.
> ...



Jim Kingshott shows a drawknife pretty much embedded in a slot, ploughed in a block of wood.

Only the edge is showing, and the stone is used horizontally.

(rough diagram)






BugBear


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## mouppe (27 Oct 2015)

I love using my drawknife, for fine and heavy work. And I use it on dry wood as well as greenwood. I used to clamp it in my vice and use waterstones to sharpen it. Then I bought Peter Galbert's drawknife sharpening tool (made by Benchcrafted). 

Yes it's a leap of faith. Yes, you can sharpen perfectly well without one. Yes loads of people on the forum will yap on about how it's unnecessary and expensive and the old-timers didn't use one etc etc. But if you want to sharpen safely, fast, consistently and really really easily, it's worth buying. Windsor chairmakers are probably the most traditional woodworkers out there, so it says a lot when one of their very best invents such a tool. After years of woodworking, I hardly buy any tools any more as I have all I need, but this is one little thing that I bought about a year ago and really appreciate.

It's called a Galbert drawsharp. You can see Peter Galbert demonstrating it on youtube.


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## Jacob (27 Oct 2015)

My way was to hold the stone in the bench vice but lengthways on, rather than sideways parallel to the bench, then to work the draw knife over it more or less in the same action as you would when actually using it, plus working it away from you as well. Easier if you box the stone in such a way that it's above the bench level and you have plenty of clearance around it (i.e. tall "box" - a joist end or something).
Alternatively make a long boxy thing to hold in the shave horse similarly e.g. sit the stone in a notch, or against stops, on a length of 3x2 and work the draw knife to and fro.

PS I'd add - Richard T's method sounds better (above) but you'd need a stone with a handle like a scythe stone, to avoid cutting yourself.
This sort of thing below would be ideal, or a long stone (8" too short) mounted on a board with a handle


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## MIGNAL (27 Oct 2015)

Just send an email to Veritas. They'll have a jig for you, up and running by next April.


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## D_W (27 Oct 2015)

mouppe":2vq52kc8 said:


> I love using my drawknife, for fine and heavy work. And I use it on dry wood as well as greenwood. I used to clamp it in my vice and use waterstones to sharpen it. Then I bought Peter Galbert's drawknife sharpening tool (made by Benchcrafted).
> 
> Yes it's a leap of faith. Yes, you can sharpen perfectly well without one. Yes loads of people on the forum will yap on about how it's unnecessary and expensive and the old-timers didn't use one etc etc. But if you want to sharpen safely, fast, consistently and really really easily, it's worth buying. Windsor chairmakers are probably the most traditional woodworkers out there, so it says a lot when one of their very best invents such a tool. After years of woodworking, I hardly buy any tools any more as I have all I need, but this is one little thing that I bought about a year ago and really appreciate.
> 
> It's called a Galbert drawsharp. You can see Peter Galbert demonstrating it on youtube.



you do what you need to get the result you want.

If galbert teaches students, it's safe to assume that the contraption is for students, though, and not something he'd have developed without them.

But still, you do whatever you need to to get the result you want.


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## mouppe (27 Oct 2015)

D_W":ppf8pil0 said:


> mouppe":ppf8pil0 said:
> 
> 
> > I love using my drawknife, for fine and heavy work. And I use it on dry wood as well as greenwood. I used to clamp it in my vice and use waterstones to sharpen it. Then I bought Peter Galbert's drawknife sharpening tool (made by Benchcrafted).
> ...




con·trap·tion
kənˈtrapSH(ə)n/
noun
a machine or device that appears strange or unnecessarily complicated, and often badly made or unsafe.

If you have nothing pleasant to say, why not keep quiet? I'm offering my personal experience to a member of this forum- yes, what works for me may work for him too- is it necessary for you to constantly chip in and mock other posters? 

I already posted that I don't need to use the tool to get a sharp edge, but it certainly makes it consistently fast and easy, which is of value to lots of people. Peter Galbert- it's a name so we capitalise it by the way- teaches a couple of classes a year, but is also an excellent professional chairmaker in his own right. He developed the tool for himself and uses it, as do many other chairmakers, professional and amateur. His students had nothing to do with the tool's development.


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## D_W (27 Oct 2015)

Read it through whatever lens you like - if you want to find the worst definition, go for it. This is one I'd refer to:

n.
a mechanical contrivance; gadget; device.

Of course, something contrived:

con·trived (kən-trīvd′)
adj.
Obviously planned or calculated; not spontaneous or natural; labored: a novel with a contrived ending.

Not novels we're talking about, but not spontaneous or natural is a good way to go.

It's important to point out that regardless of how capable a maker is, when they offer something to sell to beginners, it's often not something they'd have ever made without the presence of beginners. 

I used contraptions when i started, they were in some cases, necessary to get the results I wanted. When it becomes easier to get results without them, then they disappear.


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## mouppe (27 Oct 2015)

I read it in the sense you intended it. In no way whatsoever did you intend to post a kindly or favourable remark. It's clear what you meant and as much as you try to wriggle out of it, it's plain to see. 

Whatever. As is clear from the numerous threads in which you have bored us all to death with your pontifications on steel, cap irons, Lie Nielsen, marketing strategies, consumer psychology- the list is growing longer by the post- you're just a pompous windbag eager to tell people they are wrong and you are right. 

To the original post to whom my first post is intended, I hope you find a solution to your drawknife sharpening. As I said before, the Galbert tool works well for me.


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## Jacob (27 Oct 2015)

I've used contraptions too and found things got a lot easier when I stopped!
That Galbert thing is very typical - unnecessary, expensive, over engineered device and most likely time consuming. Like so many of these gadgets it has a superficial logic about it which would attract the beginner - but it would also defer acquisition of the fairly simple and valuable skill of doing it freehand.
nb Galbert's gadget presumably requires prior hollow grinding on a wheel, which is another reason to avoid using it.


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## D_W (27 Oct 2015)

There is an element of it that I can see from Galbert's point of view. He gets a flow of students, and some of them will just not be able to sharpen a drawknife (what their future is making chairs then, i don't know), and he's either going to be stuck sharpening all of those drawknives, or he's going to have a situation where he can make lemonade out of lemons. 

I have a long affection for sharpening stones of all types, I'm just fascinated with sharpening things. I have been told numerous times that it's because I probably don't know how to sharpen, and I recall a conversation where our David C (and I say that because I learned to sharpen from David C's DVDs and have probably been responsible for selling at the very least, dozens of his DVDs, by suggesting them to people starting out) and Rob Cosman said something along the lines of seeing only two properly sharpened irons in their class work. 

Certainly I can see where they'd make the accusation where I couldn't sharpen, because they probably deal with that day in and day out. David has suggested just today that I might be in a class of people who doesn't know how to sharpen A2 properly (I'm not offended by those types of accusations, by the way). 

I suppose if you've got a class and you have people banging down your door telling you that they need you to help them sharpen their drawknife, a remedy is in order. That's what my comments above are based on, not intended to be derisive as mouppe is supposing. It's just a statement of what is.


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## blackrodd (27 Oct 2015)

bugbear":3c3enpaz said:


> blackrodd":3c3enpaz said:
> 
> 
> > Many thanks for the replies and shared experiences.
> ...



We're on the same wavelength here, Bugbear that would fingers out of harms way!
Regards Rodders


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## MIGNAL (27 Oct 2015)

A drawknife might be a little more difficult to sharpen than a chisel or a plane blade. Hardly fiendishly difficult though. I find a double bevel knife much harder to sharpen.


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## D_W (28 Oct 2015)

MIGNAL":lfnrf5xt said:


> I find a double bevel knife much harder to sharpen.



Ditto that, especially on the myriad of soft pocket knives that someone ground a profile that is not intended to match any stone. 

George Wilson turned me on to wharncliffe style blades, and that's the end of that. Before that , I've gotten some (drop point or clip blade) pocket knives that literally couldn't be sharpened at the heel. I don't know what the manufacturers think, but I guess they're not expecting anyone to sharpen them. And others that seem like they're around saw temper.

We have a local maker who specializes in carbon steel blades, fully hardened to 60, but they're not cheap (great eastern cutlery - well, they have three brands, and GEC is 440C, but the other two brands are 1095). Their "wall street" knife makes a superb shop knife, and is lock back - sharpens in a minute or two, holds its edge, etc, and with a flat edge, it's as easy to strop as a straight razor.


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## MIGNAL (28 Oct 2015)

I mean this type, ground both sides:

https://www.violins.ca/tools/images/8D-5940-480w.jpg

They are too small to effectively take a stone to them. You take the knife to the stone. One side you are sharpening right handed, flip it over to sharpen the other bevel and you are having to use your left hand. It can really throw your geometry out. You are switching guide fingers. Not only that but the blade is very low to the stone which adds to the difficulty. Of course with practice one gets accustomed to it but it has to be said that a drawknife is much easier (in comparison) to sharpen. Perhaps it poses a little more threat to the fingers if you lose concentration, that's about it though.


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## D_W (28 Oct 2015)

Ahh, much different than I was thinking. I can't see that picture, it's apparently not available to anyone in the states, but I know what you're talking about - I think. I find those blades easier to sharpen by holding further up the knife and not getting the finger involved, or by holding them like a pencil and only allowing involvement of one hand so as not to have a finger twisting narrow bevels left and right.


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## MIGNAL (28 Oct 2015)

Some of them are narrow - 1/4". I have a few, the widest and the one I use the most is 1 ". I suppose they aren't that different from some chipcarving knives. I think you are supposed to make your own handle, not that I've bothered!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (28 Oct 2015)

I do have a tutorial/pictorial on my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... knife.html

This is based on the method of Curtis Buchanan, which is to create a hollow grind. Hollow grinds make for easier honing.

How to do this ...







Regards from Perth

Derek


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## David C (28 Oct 2015)

Brian Boggs explained to me that the flat side of a draw knife should have a very slight curve from front to back.

This allows him to enter and exit a cut, without chatter.

The Galbert aid works very well, from what I have heard. But of course I like honing guides.

When I built one of Brians exceptionally comfortable, country chairs he was working on a way of jigging the curve of the back. Not sure if this ever got perfected.

I love the way so many mock his device when they absolutely, certainly have not tried it.

David


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## Jacob (28 Oct 2015)

David C":z4gcc90c said:


> ...
> I love the way so many mock his device when they absolutely, certainly have not tried it.
> 
> David


Life's too short - so many gadgets, so little time!
nb I expect it does work but so does the freehand rufty-tufty backwoods approach.


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## Jacob (28 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> .... Hollow grinds make for easier honing....


Yes but they don't necessarily make for easier _sharpening_ overall, if you include the grinding, which you have to - one way or another it is inescapable.


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## D_W (28 Oct 2015)

David C":2aa2rioa said:


> I love the way so many mock his device when they absolutely, certainly have not tried it.
> 
> David



What's mocking it, saying that it's a contraption but you do what you have to do? That seems more like the truth.

The gauge costs more than two drawknives would cost here in the states. I would hope to spend the $84 on wood instead, but if I couldn't sharpen a drawknife, I'd be forced to.

It is the era of crutches and beginners, but we shouldn't run around pretending that these things are the result of an improvement in the craft itself. They're the result of an influx of beginners who hold up class when they can't master basic skills immediately.


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## David C (28 Oct 2015)

The majority of woodworkers today are amateurs who did not benefit from a seven year apprenticeship.

However they want to get stuff made in less than 7 years !

David


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## mouppe (28 Oct 2015)

David C":y28ypngv said:


> Brian Boggs explained to me that the flat side of a draw knife should have a very slight curve from front to back.
> 
> This allows him to enter and exit a cut, without chatter.
> 
> ...



Yes, that's how I have my drawknife set up. It wasn't like that at first, but after using one that had a slightly convex back I preferred it and sharpened it accordingly. 

Of course with the Galbert guide, it is no harder to sharpen than if the knife had a flat back. Another reason to support its usefulness. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (28 Oct 2015)

David C":1pefvgs2 said:


> The majority of woodworkers today are amateurs who did not benefit from a seven year apprenticeship.
> 
> However they want to get stuff made in less than 7 years !
> 
> David


We learned to sharpen at school. It took about 10 minutes to get the idea and a few hours of tool use to get good at it. Not seven years. 7 days max? Nothing has changed - except the desperate efforts of the gadget makers trying to de-skill everybody and sell them stuff instead.


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## bridger (29 Oct 2015)

The current state of the hobbyist-heavy woodworking industry is certainly well saturated with gadgets to make fairly simple processes mystery free, or at least skill free. Many of them do make specific tasks easily performed to a high degree of accuracy. Most sharpening jigs to me seem to fall into this category. The problem in the end is that by substituting a jig for manual skill you do not gain the manual skill which would transfer laterally to related sharpening tasks which the jig does not address. So you need yet another jig. Pretty soon you have a pile of sharpening jigs with lots of small parts and adjustments to fiddle with. Yes, those jigs will allow you to sharpen slightly more accurately than I do freehand, but nowhere as fast, certainly no sharper and frankly whether the bevel is at 30° or 32° makes no difference at all with any of my tools.

Now, to get back on topic, I clamp one arm of a drawknife just beyond the handle ferrule in the bench vise and take the stones to it. To work on the back I lay the drawknife bevel down on the bench and bring the stones to it there.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Oct 2015)

DavidC":364bbf5b said:


> > Brian Boggs explained to me that the flat side of a draw knife should have a very slight curve from front to back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jacob, this is the same argument at per your sharpening of plane blades. Everyone to their own. I find it easier/quicker to get a sharp edge using a hollow grind (on all blades).

Incidentally, I have purchased one of Galbert's guides. Why not? It many be the best thing since sliced bread. I'll find out and report back at a later date.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## iNewbie (29 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3pvadcy0 said:


> David C":3pvadcy0 said:
> 
> 
> > The majority of woodworkers today are amateurs who did not benefit from a seven year apprenticeship.
> ...



Well, if someone hadn't have put forth an Oilstone you'd still be using a chunk of flint... Some gadgets have a use.


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## MIGNAL (29 Oct 2015)

Don't forget to make a gadget for a thumb plane blade. Another for a router blade. Another for knife sharpening. 
A very special one for gouges.
Thanks.


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## Jacob (29 Oct 2015)

David C":3s6e43e2 said:


> The majority of woodworkers today are amateurs who did not benefit from a seven year apprenticeship.
> 
> However they want to get stuff made in less than 7 years !
> 
> David


I'm sure you could do it Dave - if you'd just stop talking yourself (and a lot of other people) out of it!


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## D_W (29 Oct 2015)

bridger":2zeq7cra said:


> The current state of the hobbyist-heavy woodworking industry is certainly well saturated with gadgets to make fairly simple processes mystery free, or at least skill free. Many of them do make specific tasks easily performed to a high degree of accuracy. Most sharpening jigs to me seem to fall into this category. The problem in the end is that by substituting a jig for manual skill you do not gain the manual skill which would transfer laterally to related sharpening tasks which the jig does not address. So you need yet another jig. Pretty soon you have a pile of sharpening jigs with lots of small parts and adjustments to fiddle with. Yes, those jigs will allow you to sharpen slightly more accurately than I do freehand, but nowhere as fast, certainly no sharper and frankly whether the bevel is at 30° or 32° makes no difference at all with any of my tools.



Well put. Freehand sharpening is the *gateway drug* to sharpening everything in the house that can be sharpened, and with nothing more than a decent bench stone or two. Knives, scissors, etc. (and more importantly for the wood shop, having the hand control to set up and then maintain gouges, moulding planes, etc).


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2015)

I think some forget how long it can take to 'master basic skills' to use a phrase posted above. Those who learned during an apprenticeship were working 40 or so hours a week, 48 weeks of the year for four years (or more). It's true that for the first year they may only have been brewing the tea and sweeping up, but they still had far more hours available that someone of middle years with a full-time career or job and a wish to achieve something rather than just fiddle around.

I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours. Of the things I've done in life, both professionally as a design engineer and in my own time, I'd say there was some truth in that. To become adequately competent at any particular aspect of a particular craft may be only a small part of that, but each part must be practiced at least to a level of basic competency before the whole becomes viable. 

Thus, for someone of middle years with more money available than time, some devices may help to shorten the time required to get a good result, thus leaving more time for the other aspects that can't be so easily short-curcuited. If enough time is invested, adequate competence with the basics can be achieved, and the devices then left aside. But not everybody has that time.

'Different people, different ways' as D.H.Lawrence once wrote.


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## MIGNAL (29 Oct 2015)

I once spent 10,000 hours looking for the perfect sharpening jig. Just another 10,000 hours to go!


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## Jacob (29 Oct 2015)

D_W":s2mb6cka said:


> ,,,,,..... Freehand sharpening is the *gateway drug* to sharpening everything in the house that can be sharpened, and with nothing more than a decent bench stone or two. Knives, scissors, etc. (and more importantly for the wood shop, having the hand control to set up and then maintain gouges, moulding planes, etc).


Funny you should say that - when I finally gave up fiddling about with jigs and rediscovered freehand I was so pleased with how fast and easy it was I set about sharpening every single thing in my workshop - including boxes of stuff lying around for years which I'd never used and probably never will. It's addictive!


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2015)

MIGNAL":2n2iroty said:


> I once spent 10,000 hours looking for the perfect sharpening jig. Just another 10,000 hours to go!




I must have spent about 10,000 hours making tea...


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## Jacob (29 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":2th52u17 said:


> ....
> I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours. ....


Yes but that is for the whole gamut of required skills, knowledge and experience - not just sharpening! :lol: 
So e.g. an artist might take 10000 hours to get going but that is not 10000 hours of pencil sharpening !
Pencils, chisels, plane irons all roughly equivalent in degree of sharpening difficulty i.e. any fool can do it after an hour or so from the off (unless they've talked themselves out of it and convinced themselves it's really difficult!)


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## Sheffield Tony (29 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":104k9ev2 said:


> I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours.



From someone who had already spent 10000 hours or more doing that something, and didn't want competition, I'll wager.

As Jacob says, much depends on the scope of the "something", and the extent of "really competent". We are talking 5-6 years full time here.


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3qpjtsdf said:


> Cheshirechappie":3qpjtsdf said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



The 10,000 hours in this case would be to become a competent cabinetmaker, or joiner. Part of that is being able to keep the tools of the trade in good order. It doesn't mean that it takes 10,000 hours to learn to sharpen a pencil.

Just to clarify.


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2015)

Sheffield Tony":1ym9dhcy said:


> Cheshirechappie":1ym9dhcy said:
> 
> 
> > I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours.
> ...



Yeah. Where you a competent engineer straight out of university? Or did it take a bit longer?


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## Jacob (29 Oct 2015)

10000 hours came from a study of pro musicians and what it takes to become one at the very start of a career.
A conclusion was that 10000 hours of training and practice would do it, and similarly in other fields. 
It's very arguable but perhaps not surprising as it amounts to about 5 years full time - same as degree plus pro qualification time.
But the good news was that it meant almost anybody can reach a good level of competency in any field, given the right education/training and enough practice. The idea of innate talent goes out of the window and it becomes more about opportunity and motivation.
The proof is all around us; free state education taking people into areas previously closed to their forbears, and conversely; private education taking the privileged few into areas well beyond their intelligence or any "natural" ability (think "Bullingdon Club" :lol: )


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## MIGNAL (29 Oct 2015)

I've done 10,000 hours on guitar. I'm still at grade 3 !! My consolation is that I can sharpen a chisel freehand.


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2015)

Jacob":o8p8rg1a said:


> 10000 hours came from a study of pro musicians and what it takes to become one at the very start of a career.
> A conclusion was that 10000 hours of training and practice would do it, and similarly in other fields.
> It's very arguable but perhaps not surprising as it amounts to about 5 years full time - same as degree plus pro qualification time.
> But the good news was that it meant almost anybody can reach a good level of competency in any field, given the right education/training and enough practice. The idea of innate talent goes out of the window and it becomes more about opportunity and motivation.
> The proof is all around us; free state education taking people into areas previously closed to their forbears, and conversely; private education taking the privileged few into areas well beyond their intelligence or any "natural" ability (think "Bullingdon Club" :lol: )



You just can't resist trying to provoke an argument, can you Jacob? :lol:


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## mouppe (29 Oct 2015)

All the naysayers are assuming that everybody uses a jig went straight from not knowing how to sharpen to using a jig. 

Well that's not me and I suspect a lot of others too. I can sharpen almost everything freehand- including a drawknife- but when I tried the Galbert tool I just found it worked better for me and was easier too. So yes, I can sharpen it freehand the way I used to, but I prefer now to use the guide. I also prefer using a guide for chisels narrower than 1/4". 

In reality, it's the "one-way only" guys that are limiting their skill base.


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## D_W (29 Oct 2015)

mouppe":1zobs9kc said:


> All the naysayers are assuming that everybody uses a jig went straight from not knowing how to sharpen to using a jig.
> 
> Well that's not me and I suspect a lot of others too. I can sharpen almost everything freehand- including a drawknife- but when I tried the Galbert tool I just found it worked better for me and was easier too. So yes, I can sharpen it freehand the way I used to, but I prefer now to use the guide. I also prefer using a guide for chisels narrower than 1/4".
> 
> In reality, it's the "one-way only" guys that are limiting their skill base.



I don't expect you to take a suggestion from me, but i'll offer one, anyway. Narrow chisels are more easily sharpened by holding them with one hand. The whole sharpening process might be 20 seconds, since there is so little metal to remove, it should be easier to get a good result with them. Off the grinder, it's something like three strokes on a stone, work the back briefly, strop. Repeat again with 10 seconds of initial work on a medium stone. getting two hands involved makes things crowded and putting pressure at the end of the tool as usual with an extra set of fingers introduces twist that you won't get if you sharpen with one hand with your index finger laid on top of the chisel back.


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## Jacob (29 Oct 2015)

Narrow chisels are about the easiest thing in the world to sharpen. No grinding needed (unless in a very bad way) - just draw them back towards you over the stone starting at about 25º and lifting to about 30º at the end of the stroke. 
More skill required to sharpen a pencil.


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## profchris (29 Oct 2015)

MIGNAL":pxxbd6nd said:


> I've done 10,000 hours on guitar. I'm still at grade 3 !! My consolation is that I can sharpen a chisel freehand.



Ah, but were they 10,000 hours of practice towards improvement?

In aviation, where I also play, we make a distinction between someone who has 10,000 hours flying and someone else who flew the same hour 10,000 times.

So you know I'm not immune, although I probably have fewer than 100 hours chisel sharpening under my belt I fear they were all the same hour. My ukulele paying is showing real improvement, while my ukulele making seems to be going backwards. I put the latter down to intermittently blunt chisels and plane blades.


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## bugbear (29 Oct 2015)

MIGNAL":1pcrijfv said:


> I've done 10,000 hours on guitar. I'm still at grade 3 !! My consolation is that I can sharpen a chisel freehand.



Turns out Gladwell over-simplified (had a book to sell, go figure).

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2012111 ... -rule-myth

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2015)

Oh, I'd willingly agree that 10,000 hours is an oversimplification. However, as the BBC article says,

"Scientifically speaking, 10,000 hours is not a precise figure but shorthand for “lots and lots of dedicated practice”. Even 10,000 hours of dedicated practice may not be enough to give you the skills of a virtuoso. But whether you dream of playing at the concert hall, wielding the guitar, or taking part on the running track, 10,000 hours is a good starting point. Double that and you may even be winning international competitions.

However you look at it, being the best requires a lot of time and effort, and few people are willing to dedicate so much of their lives to a single pursuit. So while practice may get some of us close to perfection, for many of us it is an unattainable goal. That’s no reason not to give it a try, of course."

The point I was trying to make is that getting good at something takes time, and sometimes some of the required practice can be shortened by using suitable devices to avoid the need for time spent skill-building. Those devices are not necessarily invalid for some people in some circumstances.

Phew. Almost wish I hadn't mentioned it, now!


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## bugbear (30 Oct 2015)

Jacob":nfh4tpy5 said:


> We learned to sharpen at school. It took about 10 minutes to get the idea and a few hours of tool use to get good at it. Not seven years. 7 days max? Nothing has changed - except the desperate efforts of the gadget makers trying to de-skill everybody and sell them stuff instead.



That was back in the mid eighties, at tech college, right?

And then you spent around 20 years as a joiner, principally making sash windows.

And then, a few years ago, you invented your current technique, after a discussion on this very forum.

So - what technique were you taught at college, and what technique did you use for your professional career?

BugBear (curious)


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## Jacob (30 Oct 2015)

bugbear":cjcmayz8 said:


> Jacob":cjcmayz8 said:
> 
> 
> > We learned to sharpen at school. It took about 10 minutes to get the idea and a few hours of tool use to get good at it. Not seven years. 7 days max? Nothing has changed - except the desperate efforts of the gadget makers trying to de-skill everybody and sell them stuff instead.
> ...


At school in the 50s freehand oil stone. Use of bench grinder deprecated - only for major remedial not for routine sharpening. College in the 80s exactly the same routine. 
But stupidly I got into fiddling with jigs, bench grinders as somehow the "precise correct" way, and freehand only for emergencies. Worst of both worlds - sharpening always a bit of a problem.
Then reverted to freehand having discovered the rounded bevel trick and finally got it sorted! 
I wouldn't say I "invented" a technique it's just that I realised that the highly deprecated "rounding over" is not the same as "rounding under". 
Dipping as you go gives a slightly rounded bevel, is much faster (you can put more effort into it) but retains your chosen edge angle. So the freehand method I'd been doing slightly clumsily for years suddenly became really easy. I wish I'd realised it a lot sooner but better late than never.
It wasn't the result of 10000 hours of developing technique - I was doing it from the beginning but being over-cautious about rounding over - and reading stupid bolox about the new sharpening. Just a misunderstanding.


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## bugbear (30 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3t1pnryu said:


> bugbear":3t1pnryu said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3t1pnryu said:
> ...



So you were using jigs and grinders for your 20 year professional career. Interesting, thanks.

BugBear


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## Jacob (30 Oct 2015)

bugbear":1aki82qz said:


> .....
> So you were using jigs and grinders for your 20 year professional career. Interesting, thanks.
> 
> BugBear


I see where you are trying to go but you are on your own.
Basically I was sharpening inefficiently - but then I was mostly machining anyway, just tweaking with hand-tools as necessary. 
But where it really mattered; on-site where hand-tools come into their own, it had to be freehand only for obvious reasons; you can't fiddle with jigs and paraphernalia if you are trying to get some work done under pressure, away from the workshop.


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## Andy Kev. (30 Oct 2015)

mouppe":xqrc5brd said:


> All the naysayers are assuming that everybody uses a jig went straight from not knowing how to sharpen to using a jig.
> 
> Well that's not me and I suspect a lot of others too. I can sharpen almost everything freehand- including a drawknife- but when I tried the Galbert tool I just found it worked better for me and was easier too. So yes, I can sharpen it freehand the way I used to, but I prefer now to use the guide. I also prefer using a guide for chisels narrower than 1/4".
> 
> In reality, it's the "one-way only" guys that are limiting their skill base.


I agree with this, although I am one of those who went from knowing nothing and so started with a jig.

Partly at the insistence of the views of people like Jacob on here (they obvoiusly knew what they were on about) I kept trying to hand sharpen and now will happily break off work to hone up any edge wider than 1/4". I also know when I'm happier using a honing guide. While I think it makes a lot of sense to listen to all opinions, I can see no particular advantage in being a purist for the sake of it. It's just a matter of finding what suits you best in an informed sort of way.


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## bugbear (30 Oct 2015)

Jacob":15vs0jes said:


> Basically I was sharpening inefficiently - but then I was mostly machining anyway, just tweaking with hand-tools as necessary.
> 
> But where it really mattered; on-site where hand-tools come into their own, it had to be freehand only for obvious reasons; you can't fiddle with jigs and paraphernalia if you are trying to get some work done under pressure, away from the workshop.



Yes, I've had a carpenter on site. I remember him using a steel hammer to power a plastic handled chisel down through chipboard, supported by concrete. The chipboard was removed in pieces. I guess he didn't mind too much about the edge of that chisel, nor how he sharpened it. His tools were all jumbled in a traditional hessian bag.

But a cabinet maker, making furniture in a workshop, would have a wider range of sharpening techniques to choose from.

BugBear


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## Jacob (30 Oct 2015)

bugbear":2v5sgaef said:


> ....
> But a cabinet maker, making furniture in a workshop, would have a wider range of sharpening techniques to choose from.
> 
> BugBear


But if under any pressure at all to produce stuff would soon revert to the simplest and quickest means of sharpening - and once found would not go back.


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## bugbear (30 Oct 2015)

Jacob":28bfovk8 said:


> bugbear":28bfovk8 said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Can't disagree with that. :wink: 

BugBear


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## blackrodd (30 Oct 2015)

When I started my apprenticeship, I was not sweeping up and making tea for any period of time, Looking back on it,
on working in the variousplaces, in the timber sheds sorting and stacking, working in the mill, sawshop and in the joinery shop, this was all about attitude to learning, doing exactly as instructed, when instructed.
In the joinery shop, when the newly purchased plane and chisels needed attention, we were shown how to sharpen them, 4 different blokes, same basic principle.
This is it! the first step on the ladder to being a tradesman, so you had to learn, soak up the knowledge, as instructed.
Flatten the back of the iron once and then sharpen free hand on a combi stone, no shortcuts no gadgets.
After 3, or 4 goes we're there! It was easy, really.
Some of these gadgets make you lazy, got a gadget, can't be bothered and as my mentor said, where do you stop?
Sharpening and honing are a "hand" craft, stance, and hand co ordination are necessary.
Much the same as sawing dovetails and tenons, you have to practice and practice until you get it right!
Use a honing gadget If you rally can't master it, or can't be pineappled, are too impatient to get involved with any thing fiddly, Do what works for you, it's nice to see you here, I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw, but if I can do it,-----
If it were not for the Hard point saw, Just think how many questions there would be on saw setting and file angles
What is the best steel hardness, and still be able to file.
Is it really possible to set a saw with a nail punch! (As a customer said he did in our saw shop once)! etc etc 
Do I really need the £300.00 veritas saw set Or, Look! Iv'e just bought the leigh vally chrome and gold saw tooth topper, a snip at £175.00.
Many thanks for the draw knife tips, very much appreciated, as are ALL the comments and replies.
Regards Rodders
PS,Please Phil, no TL, DR!


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## D_W (30 Oct 2015)

Well said, Rodders. The guides get you started if you don't have a couple of masters to show how, but they are a detriment if you don't move on - they separate you from just understanding something that is extremely simple and that you can learn to do without getting geometric equations or stop blocks or whatever involved. We're in a constant feedback loop - we're using the tools. There really isn't going to be some disaster occurring without them. 

I wish I would've had a shop master show me how to sharpen, i chanced into sharpening the same way most professionals do, for the same reason as jacob says - sooner or later you get tired of screwing around or can't afford the time to do it.


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## Jacob (30 Oct 2015)

bugbear":2obcei0g said:


> Jacob":2obcei0g said:
> 
> 
> > Basically I was sharpening inefficiently - but then I was mostly machining anyway, just tweaking with hand-tools as necessary.
> ...


Cabinet maker in the workshop has it easy. As a rule furniture is easier than trad joinery and you don't have to do it on site with no machines and sometimes no electricity. 
I've had to do things like scribing and mitreing Georgian skirting, architraves and dado rail mouldings all round a room including dressing it around pilasters and bending it into curved alcoves, all by hand and eye, no machines at all. Probably getting on for 100 joints in one big room. Carpenters axe come in handy for scribing and it's one place where a rip saw suddenly becomes essential. No bench of course but a pair of saw horses, g clamps and door wedge devices instead.
Effective sharpening is key. No turning up with granite slabs, glass plates, several jigs, lashings of emery paper, no place to flatten waterstones, and so on! One oil stone does it all.


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## CStanford (30 Oct 2015)

Finish carpenters ("joiners") over here have it easy. By the time they hit the scene electricity has been available for weeks. Most of these guys pull up with panel trucks fitted out as well or better than a furniture maker's shop.


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## custard (30 Oct 2015)

CStanford":2l5lvdao said:


> Most of these guys pull up with panel trucks fitted out as well or better than a furniture maker's shop.



Same in this country. The care some tradesmen put into their van fit-outs often makes me think it's the modern day equivalent of the ornately decorated and fitted out tool chest!


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## G S Haydon (30 Oct 2015)

What a perfect way of putting it!


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## D_W (31 Oct 2015)

I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England. 

It's mostly cut, place, nail finger jointed stuff as far as I've seen, unless someone is doing historic work. 

The guys running on the ground usually have the tools to do very good work, but are in too much of a hurry to do it. There are exceptions (I found three guys to hire to finish out a room, and they did neat work and used stock nicer than I've found - but you talk to most people, and they'll say "i heard they do good work, but they're too expensive". Their truck is plain, their skills are not).


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## custard (31 Oct 2015)

D_W":3gvvh84g said:


> I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.



I've seen finish carpentry in both countries, there really isn't that much difference. Don't fall for the myth of the "fabled British craftsmen", we sell that story to help with exports and self esteem, but underneath it's mainly guys who've had similar training, use similar materials, tools, and techniques, and at the end of the day produce similar results.


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## D_W (31 Oct 2015)

custard":2iwkfx71 said:


> D_W":2iwkfx71 said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.
> ...



That's a bummer! oversunk nails, gaps and calk are what keeps everything going here.


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## blackrodd (31 Oct 2015)

custard":2qy1c94r said:


> D_W":2qy1c94r said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.
> ...



You're right there, This is partly due to trying to teach in a classroom, and not enough emphasis on sitework.
As on the last big site I worked on, I dread seeing the typical overpriced VW van, full of kit, everything strapped to the fat tool belt that needs a pair of braces to keep them from falling down!
The thing they mostly want to use is the nail gun and BO screwdriver, and constantly on the bloody 'phone, but sadly they weren't taught any different.
The only hope of a continued quality of trades men, (and women) is with the smaller 1, and 2 band workshops, such as some members on here hopefully will need to expand an apprentice.
Regards Rodders


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## CStanford (31 Oct 2015)

D_W":3imh9a1r said:


> custard":3imh9a1r said:
> 
> 
> > D_W":3imh9a1r said:
> ...



In cheap tract homes, yes. 

How about these guys: http://www.commorata-berardi.com/catego ... =libraries

Fine interior craftsmanship is available for a price.


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## Dovetaildave (31 Oct 2015)

Basic PPE, inexpensive and much valued on occasions.


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