# Chisels for a newbie



## TonyW (19 Feb 2007)

Hello to all. I have been lurking around this site for a while now picking up lots of useful information and tips - thanks to all who post here. 

After many years of rough / DIY work I am now interested in attempting more ambitious projects and have started work on building a beginners first bench and upgrading some of my tools to better quality models. 

My current chisels are a cheap and nasty set of 3 probably picked up from the local £ shop - I am sure no one here would use such a set!! 
After trying my hand at sharpening them they have an interesting range of multi bevels! I am looking to replace them with better quality set without spending too much until I become more proficient. 

So far I am considering the following: 
Bahco 424P or Irwin Marples M444. These are available as a set of three 12mm, 18mm and 25mm for around £30. To these I will probably add a 6mm. 

Just a couple of questions 
What do you think about the quality of the above? 
Are there other alternatives around that price that I should be looking at? 

I now intend to practice my grinding and honing techniques with my old chisels !

Thanks Tony


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## ByronBlack (19 Feb 2007)

I'll give my stock response:

If you can go to £50, the Kirschen (Two Cherry) chisel set from Axminster is one of the best chisel sets for the money in that price range and much better than the Bahco or Marples.


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## mr (19 Feb 2007)

TonyW":czk0ba21 said:


> My current chisels are a cheap and nasty set of 3 probably picked up from the local £ shop - I am sure no one here would use such a set!!
> After trying my hand at sharpening them they have an interesting range of multi bevels! I am looking to replace them with better quality set without spending too much until I become more proficient.
> 
> (snip)
> ...


Hi Tony

I have just such a set of cheapie chisels. Black plastic handle things from B&Q, perfect for abusing and wasting large lumps of wood quickly before moving onto the better bench chisels. They've ben belted from here to kingdom come with a range of mallets and hammers and keep coming back for more so dont discount those cheap chisels too soon. As to the multi bevel thing, the first thing you will want to do with your new chisels is sharpen them. So put the practice in on the cheapies before you do that or you will end up with two sets of multi bevelled chisels. Have you considered a sharpening guide?

Cheers Mike


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## woodbloke (19 Feb 2007)

For the price, the Two Cherries ticks the box  and I would also recommend a honing guide in the shape of an Eclipse clone - Rob


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## Adam (19 Feb 2007)

ByronBlack":2eacef1q said:


> I'll give my stock response:
> 
> If you can go to £50, the Kirschen (Two Cherry) chisel set from Axminster is one of the best chisel sets for the money in that price range and much better than the Bahco or Marples.



Or you can buy them individually - about £9 each. See here:

EDIT: Just noticed they aren't quite the same. I have the 1101 set, not the 1002's. 

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Kirs ... -22470.htm

Or you can get six for £54.95.

I use these chisels - and am quite pleased with them. Seem to stay nice and sharp - more than adequate for my level of woodworking.

adam


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## TonyW (19 Feb 2007)

Wow - Thanks for such quick replies. 

After your comments I think that the Kirschen are a better option than my original pick. Interestingly when I looked at the cost of buying a set of 3 Kirschen it was not much more than the cost of either the Marples or Bahco. 

So now I need to decide on either the Kirschen 1002 or 1101's. Not sure that I need 6 (yet!). I have been trying to find the difference between 1002 and 1101. As far as I can see it seems like it is just the handles and the fact that 1101 come as a set of 6. 

Do you know if there is any difference in quality between the two? 

As to my old cheap chisels, as suggested I will be keeping hold of them for rough work and also practice my sharpening skills - I am definitely going to get a honing guide. 

Thanks again for your suggestions 

Tony


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## MooreToolsPlease (19 Feb 2007)

If your going to go for the kirschens, then from what I have read the UNpolished versions are alot better.
these are available from http://www.fine-tools.com/stemmb.htm
It seems that the polishing rounds over the edges, which isnt the desired effect with the unbevelled side of a chisel


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## Anonymous (19 Feb 2007)

I just bought these http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axmi ... -31355.htm
A bit cheap and cheerful - but they were flat, and ground nicely to about 25deg so were very quick and easy to hone. Nowt wrong with them except a bit unglamourous.

cheers
Jacob


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## MooreToolsPlease (19 Feb 2007)

how do the edges hold up on those axminster ones Jacob?


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## greggy (19 Feb 2007)

hi tonyw, i bought a set of marples, i know they are far from perfect, but after spending 3 hours + on the tormek ie sharpening, and making them flat and now looking like they were made from stainless steel, they are now just as good as the very best. but remember even new chisels need sharpening. oh and welcome to the forum.


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## Amateurrestorer (19 Feb 2007)

Ok Alf listen in! I have got a set of marple chisels ( the yellow and red ones that all the site chippies seem to have and they do a good job ,but , when it comes to keen edges I really must say that the mixed set I bought from The old tool shop in Doncaster take the biscuit. I spent a good hour chatting to Barry the owner about steel and quality and he told me that chisels with a square tang were all hand forged and if you rubbed the back of them lightly with a good file you could tell how hard the steel was. I spent a while choosing a harlequin set (mixed bunch) and when I got them home gave them a final hone(Barry always hollow grounds them ready for use) and they were shaving the hairs off the back of arm sharp.I have also bought Paring chisels off him with the same degree of quality. Average price £6 a chisel and £12 to £20 pounds for a parer. You can find them on the internet but it is worth the pilgrimage to see the shop. Alf ,you had better stay away if you don't want to slip further down the slope.


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## Anonymous (19 Feb 2007)

MooreToolsPlease":2xonoe8s said:


> how do the edges hold up on those axminster ones Jacob?


OK so far but too soon to say really. 
I just finished a chiselly job before I bought these - 3 sets of big bookshelves with stopped dovetails. Now on to a door and some windows with only a little hand chiselling involved. For me a few chisels are essential but don't actually get a lot of use. Mostly just paring the shoulders or cheeks of a few tenons when not machined spot on. Is that the same for most woodworkers? Who uses them a lot other than carvers or frequent dovetailers, and what for exactly?

cheers
Jacob


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## woodbloke (20 Feb 2007)

Mr G wrote:


> Mostly just paring the shoulders or cheeks of a few tenons when not machined spot on


This is precisely what they are used for. The ability to* precisely* cut tenons on a machine is dubious, the nature of the cutting action is always across the grain which will never produce a truly clean edge. Even with a very sharp cutter a slightly woolly edge will always result. The way to obtain a true accurate and sharp edge is to knife the shoulder, machine or cut a fraction slightly away from the line and then pare back to the line with a razor sharp chisel or alternatively a well set up shoulder plane. With the sort of work that I like to do this is important, clearly not so to you - Rob


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## Colin C (20 Feb 2007)

These have also have good reviews and are in one of the woodwork mags at the moment.
Just to muddy the waters a little more


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## CONGER (20 Feb 2007)

For the record (pardon the pun), the relevant section of the Kirschen (two cherries!) catalog is here http://www.kirschen.de/_pdf/kirschen_stechbeitel.pdf

The calatlog is multi-lingual.

The difference between 1001 and 1101 is simply the packaging.

I have had mixed experiences with 2C chisels; the manufacturer sometimes slips up on QC, and they are not VERY sensitive to response from the customer base... I rate the chisels as reasonably OK. 

-ger-


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## David C (20 Feb 2007)

The overpolished long edges which stop you getting sharp corners, are the main menace with 2Cs.

Joel has the unpolished sets which are infinitely preferable.

Are these available in UK?

I did not see them mentioned on Conger's pages?

David


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2007)

Colin C":3ekoia5d said:


> These have also have good reviews and are in one of the woodwork mags at the moment.
> Just to muddy the waters a little more


Look very similar to the axminster cheapoids, just a different coloured handle and a box for the higher price. I bet they are the same and probably Chinese 

cheers
Jacob


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## bugbear (20 Feb 2007)

David C":w4uswam8 said:


> The overpolished long edges which stop you getting sharp corners, are the main menace with 2Cs.
> 
> Joel has the unpolished sets which are infinitely preferable.
> 
> ...



MooreToolsPlease gave a source closer to the UK than Joel - available TO the UK, more not IN the UK

http://www.fine-tools.com/stemmb.htm

BugBear


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2007)

woodbloke":rb5o2jf0 said:


> Mr G wrote:
> 
> 
> > Mostly just paring the shoulders or cheeks of a few tenons when not machined spot on
> ...


No not for me - I'd have to treble my prices :shock: 
Maybe you should try a little harder to get a good machine cut, it'd save you a vast amount of work by the sound of it. Seems a wasted opportunity if you are having to finish off machine cuts by hand.
I get a perfect cut over the top on a TS with a good many-toothed crosscut blade. Chisel comes in to use when there is the occasional innaccuracy - but sometimes a whole job goes through perfectly.
Oh and chisels come in to use for hinge housings, and a lot of nicking and trimming such as mitreing mouldings etc.

cheers
Jacob


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## woodbloke (20 Feb 2007)

Mr G wrote:


> Maybe you should try a little harder to get a good machine cut


I am *quite* capable of cutting accurately straight off a machine as the following pics show. They are the bases for a large dining table I made when I was making stuff for Linley. The curved mouldings on the base were spindled out and then cut *directly* from the saw.....the saw in question tho' was a brand new panel saw costing over £10G, and my little Kity 419 is just not capable of that sort of accuracy.









The final pic is one of a dumb waiter, again all the circular mouldings were cut and fitted *straight* from the machine





I will add no further comment to this thread, 'cos frankly it ain't worth the effort, but as a parting thought, wouldn't it be nice to see some of *your* work posted on the forum - Rob


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2007)

woodbloke":2gq4bdrb said:


> snip
> I am *quite* capable of cutting accurately straight off a machine as the following pics show.


well there you go then, I knew you could do it!


> snip
> be nice to see some of *your* work posted on the forum - Rob


There's some on my website if you want to look. I'll post up pics of door I'm doing at the moment, at some point.

cheers
Jacob[/quote]


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## bugbear (20 Feb 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":38075v8p said:


> There's some on my website if you want to look. I'll post up pics of door I'm doing at the moment, at some point.



Never looked at your website before.

So, you're mainly doing joinery, in North European (usually Swedish) redwood, intended to be painted.

This gives a context within which your statements on technique can be placed.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2007)

duplicated for some reason


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":1n78x1q2 said:


> bugbear":1n78x1q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr_Grimsdale":1n78x1q2 said:
> ...


You could also take the "context within which your statements" etc. as from a base of ruthless practicality - no time to faff about with elaborate hobbyist sharpening systems frinstance, no great interest in tool "quality" except insofar as they are useful and useable etc.
Actually I do other work besides redwood joinery so I am aware of the differences. Bit of everything over the years.
What sort of stuff do you do or is it just the tools? Can't remember seeing any actual woodwork on your website.

cheers
Jacob


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## bugbear (20 Feb 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":rbttm3mi said:


> What sort of stuff do you do or is it just the tools? Can't remember seeing any actual woodwork on your website.



I strive to learn as much as possible about tools. Feel free to view statements from me bearing that in mind.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2007)

bugbear":3j2k5rur said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":3j2k5rur said:
> 
> 
> > What sort of stuff do you do or is it just the tools? Can't remember seeing any actual woodwork on your website.
> ...


So, you're not doing much woodwork at all? :shock: :shock:

This gives a context within which your statements on technique can be placed. :lol: :lol: 

Sorry Bugbear couldn't resist :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Actually I find the many contributions from theoretical woodworkers very interesting and useful (seriously). I read them avidly before I go off and do things my way. :lol: :lol: 

cheers
Jacob


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## bugbear (21 Feb 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":rb5wvzm2 said:


> So, you're not doing much woodwork at all?
> 
> This gives a context within which your statements on technique can be placed.
> 
> ...



The great thing about being an amateur is we can spend as much time/effort/money as we like (or have) doing whatever interests us or takes our fancy, without having to justify it in cost/benefits terms.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (22 Feb 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":30uzc2u7 said:


> MooreToolsPlease":30uzc2u7 said:
> 
> 
> > how do the edges hold up on those axminster ones Jacob?
> ...


Have had a good go with the axminster cheapoids and they are OK. Hold an edge as good as average, no prob.
The backs have visible machine marks, not deep, which could keep a crazy sharpener happily employed for several hours, but for woodworking purpose are quite tolerable - though you could get the best of both worlds with a quick application of candle wax if you are dong the sort of cut where it matters.
I don't like the 2 tone handles - vaguely reminiscent of a cheap n nasty shell suit, but think of the money you save - £200 cheaper than a set of lee& nelson crumblies! You could buy a lot of wood with that!

cheers
Jacob


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## ByronBlack (22 Feb 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":3iryavy9 said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":3iryavy9 said:
> 
> 
> > MooreToolsPlease":3iryavy9 said:
> ...



Jacob If your going to be such a smart-*** atleast get the price correct. Your 'Lee and Nelson' chisels are £187, here's the link if you would like to take a look at a quality tool: Axminster

So not sure where you get '£200 cheaper' from.

Why is that you have such a downer on anyone wishing to use quality tools? Is it because you can't afford them yourself, or that you don't have the skills to make quality hand-made furniture?? I'm only asking because you really seem to have quite a grievence, and it's intriuging as to why.


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## Colin C (22 Feb 2007)

BB

I think you been a bit hard there to say it nicely but I do understand what you are saying [-X 

I see it on whole the same way that Jacob does in a lot of ways but not as bad ( I think its the best way I can put it )

Most of my chisels are old Marples ( I have been lucky ) but I do have a set of black handled Stanley of with I am happy ( for site work ).

Good luck to anyone that can buy LN or some at that price but I get all my work dont with what I have and find it hard to think that some one will spend that sort of money on them :? 
Regards Colin


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## Adam (22 Feb 2007)

Chaps. This is a gentle reminder. Please stay absolutely on-topic or we'll lock it. These personal comments add absolutely nothing to the forum. Please consider the actual original posting if you wish to add any further replies.

If you want to bicker, please continue via a different medium. Why not email, or PM or ring each other up either way, please cease these side swipes.

Adam


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## David C (22 Feb 2007)

Colin,

I fully understand the need to get the job done with what one can afford, or feels one needs. Those old black Stanley's were what I started with and were really quite good.

What really irritates me is someone who constantly repeats prejudices about tools which he probably has not even laid hands on, let alone used.

Paring or chopping of hard exotics with specific gravity above 1.0, is when one will discover something about the quality and hardness of a chisel.

I thought BB was masterfully restrained, given the provocation, which I find unhelpful. (That last phrase has been heavily self censored).

David


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## Colin C (22 Feb 2007)

David C":3ws0axso said:


> Colin,
> 
> What really irritates me is someone who constantly repeats prejudices about tools which he probably has not even laid hands on, let alone used.
> 
> ...



David

I do agree with your point about the prejudices as I have also used some chisels that did not preform well when used with exotic timbers.

I have also helped a young carpenter get a sharper edge to his chisels ( new Marples ), that had a very poor grinding marks on the backs.

He could not work out why he could not get then sharp and this was after talking to his collage teacher :shock: 

I stopped it right away and he is happier but I think makers of some tools very stepped away from the good tools they made they names on  

Regards Colin


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## ByronBlack (22 Feb 2007)

David C":1d6nobb2 said:


> Colin,
> 
> I fully understand the need to get the job done with what one can afford, or feels one needs. Those old black Stanley's were what I started with and were really quite good.
> 
> ...



David, thanks for the support on that issue. It's nothing personal with Grimsdale, I just get irked when there is constant belittling of techniques/tools/approaches when there is little evidence provided to the contrary or comparisons made.

Anyway, I apparently have upset a few people with my comments, so i'll duck out of this thread now and make a point of trying to be less of an irritant.


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## Colin C (22 Feb 2007)

BB 

I for one have not been upset ( to thick for that :roll: ) but I understand your reactions to this.

Now I have had a rant, lets get back on topic  

Mods I am slapping my hand as you read this.


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## Anonymous (22 Feb 2007)

ByronBlack":32sc7xmc said:


> snip
> there is little evidence provided to the contrary or comparisons made.


Byron

You obviously haven't read the thread. 
Evidence and comparisons were precisely what I was offering - a brief review of the evidence from using a cheap set of chisels, and a comparison with the price of the most expensive.
Go back and read it again Byron :roll: :roll: :roll: 

cheers
Jacob


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## ByronBlack (22 Feb 2007)

Jacob

I must not be reading correctly, but where in your posts do you compare the use of the cheaper chisels to the 'actual' use of a Lie Nielsen chisel, and where in your posts do your provide any constructive analysis of the tools in reference to there positive or negative attributes in a variety of woodworking tasks.. hmm, I took a re-read and can't see that, sorry.

Hence I stand by my opinion that for the a beginner, a good quality tool will be more beneficial and provide better results.


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## Alf (22 Feb 2007)

Just had a sudden urge to post that. Can't think why...


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## Colin C (22 Feb 2007)

Alf":3s0qyt9m said:


> Just had a sudden urge to post that. Can't think why...


 =D>


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## ByronBlack (22 Feb 2007)

Troll feeding is a hard thing to avoid - just so tempting, but I get the message, and will go and watch some video's on African Land Snails.. (link is in the general forum if anyone is interest.. it's also a good and handy site with videos on 'how to do anything'.. )


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## Anonymous (22 Feb 2007)

Colin C":vchuoodx said:


> Alf":vchuoodx said:
> 
> 
> > Just had a sudden urge to post that. Can't think why...
> ...


Agree. I'll stop now!

cheers
Jacob


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## Adam (22 Feb 2007)

Right. Wrap it up folks. Mr Grimsdale and ByronBlack, can I ask you, kindly, if you could take a step back from this post. If noone else has anything to say, then this post can be considered to have worked itself through. (I'm loathe to lock it... but its getting dangerously close)

Adam


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## TonyW (22 Feb 2007)

Well guys (and girls) had no idea that a simple request for advice would turn into such a marathon and take a on life of its own even if somewhat off topic.

As Adam suggests I think that this post can be considered worked through - at least from my point of view. As stated in an earlier reply from me I am now looking at getting a few better quality chisels e.g. the 2 cherries after getting recommendation here (and other searches). 
Interesting point on polished vs non polished cherries! Better not ask for advice on that  

Thanks again for all your help and advice - Ill be back!

Tony


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## ByronBlack (22 Feb 2007)

Ignore this, didn't see adam's post above.


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## Anonymous (22 Feb 2007)

If I had to spend more than a minute getting a chisel ready it would drive me bonkers let alone 2 hours.

I'm with Mr Grim by the way, £187 for chisels is outrageous. :shock: 
£35 for 6 marples chisels would do you fine.


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## bugbear (23 Feb 2007)

TonyW":1eiafxnm said:


> Interesting point on polished vs non polished cherries! Better not ask for advice on that



*assuming* (disclaimer I wouldn't normally bother with) you wish to work the backs of your chisels to a high degree of flat polished perfection at some stage, it's MUCH less work to remove the grind marks from the unpolished versions than to remove the rounded corners from the polished versions, which is the deeper reason for the recommendation.

BugBear


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## Adam (23 Feb 2007)

Well OK, granted, but I've got the polished variety, and did flatten then backs a little, and heres some of the projects I've turned out since then....

Heres one of those exact ones (even the box in the background), doing some general bashing.






Which turned into this:






And I cleaned up all the dovetails on this:






So... if I bought again, sure I'd buy the non-polished ones, but at the same time, I don't think I'm concerned about the polished versions I currently have. My skills still don't outbalance the chisels.

Adam


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## Lord Nibbo (23 Feb 2007)

Adam can we see some more pics of this




That beats many of the things I've seen the threads on interesting furniture. I'ts just stunning. Did you design it?

PS sorry for going off topic. Here's my pic to get back on topic




I've just ordered a 1" that LN have just started to sell, it's not included in the sets and it's not on sale here yet. :lol:


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## dedee (23 Feb 2007)

LN,
This thread details the detailed WIP of Adams Stool
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 73&start=0

Andy


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## bugbear (23 Feb 2007)

Adam":1pxjjc0x said:


> Well OK, granted, but I've got the polished variety, and did flatten then backs a little, and heres some of the projects I've turned out since then....
> 
> (pics of excellent stuff brutally deleted)
> 
> ...



Abso-fruiting-lootly. The ONLY consequence of the polished (and hence slightly rounded) backs is that the edge doesn't go absolutely all the way to the corners of the chisel.

In practice this is rarely required. For example, when cleaning a DT tail base, the DT sawcut actually defines the extreme corners of the tail (this is also why you can get away with bevel edged chisels where the edges are (in fact) quite chunky).

The "non-polished are better" statement should not obscure the fact the the polished ones are pretty darn good.

BugBear


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## Adam (23 Feb 2007)

Lord Nibbo":3mvsiw9b said:


> I'ts just stunning. Did you design it?



[Heres me blatantly deviating the topic from its original start point] Thank you & Yes. I sort of knew what I wanted to do as I went along, but it did just moorph slightly due to A) mistakes & B) seeing how it was coming along. Someone posted a link above I think. The design was just something I had in my mind, and needed to "let out". Its dead comfy - nearly everyone who sits on it comments on that.

Adam


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## TonyW (23 Feb 2007)

Adam
As Lord Nibbo said "That stool is stunning". I hope that I can achieve that level of workmanship in the future (I have a long way to go).


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## Mittlefehldt (23 Feb 2007)

Tony are the chisels made in the Czech republic, Narex available in the UK. They are not obviously LN but decent quality and quite reasonable, at least here in Canada. They are hardened to Rockwell 59 and seem to be highly fucntional and easy to use, at least I like them.


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## Paul Chapman (23 Feb 2007)

These days I buy most of my chisels from second-hand shops. Most have lots of them and, if you have a rummage, you can often find some real gems amongst all the dross and at a fraction of the cost of good new ones  

Adam, that stool is a real cracker.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (23 Feb 2007)

Paul Chapman":3kkz2th6 said:


> These days I buy most of my chisels from second-hand shops. Most have lots of them and, if you have a rummage, you can often find some real gems amongst all the dross and at a fraction of the cost of good new ones



Indeed. I have zero LN chisels, and zero Axminster cheapies.

I do have Sorby, Ward & Payne, Ibbotson, Stormount...

BugBear


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## Paul Chapman (23 Feb 2007)

bugbear":9h2qrn9r said:


> I do have Sorby, Ward & Payne, Ibbotson, Stormount...



Snap  The last three I found were Sorby, Ibbotson (both pig stickers) and a very nice Marples bevel edge with box wood handle. And all for only a few pounds  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (23 Feb 2007)

Paul Chapman":256cdn7q said:


> bugbear":256cdn7q said:
> 
> 
> > I do have Sorby, Ward & Payne, Ibbotson, Stormount...
> ...



So - are cheap chisels any good?

BugBear (teasing)


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