# The final polish



## seanybaby (16 Dec 2007)

I have been freehand sharpening my blades with 1000 then 6000 jap. water stones. I've only been woodworking just over a year and have been using the stones for the last 10 months.

I believe I'm getting a super sharp edge with this procedure. The only comparable sharpness is my tutor and fellow class mates at college. I think I'm getting the sharper blades, although i only use waterstones, most people that i know use oil stones.

I will not be buying a 8000 stone because its too expensive.

So after my 6000, would lapping with those really fine grits and leather strop add a significant amount of sharpness to my blades?

Should i even be thinking about getting blades sharper than 6000grit?


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## Philly (16 Dec 2007)

Sean
I've been experimenting with a 10K waterstone and, for the money, it really isn't necessary to get a fine edge.
What I would recommend is a leather strop loaded with rouge as a final hone after the 6k stone - makes a noticeable difference.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## seanybaby (16 Dec 2007)

How dare you! answering so slowly to my Q :lol: 

What is this rouge? Is it the jewelers stuff i've read about? Where do i get it? What grit size is it?

Where can i learn how to use a strop?

You say it makes a noticeable difference. Is this from using 6000 to stropping, or 8000 to stropping, or even 10000 to stropping?

Nice one


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## Karl (16 Dec 2007)

Hi Sean

I use waterstones too - 800, 1200 and 6000. The polish from a 6000 doesn't give the ultimate edge, so I strop afterwards and, as Philly says, this makes a noticeable difference to the edge sharpness. My strop and polish only cost a few quid.

I believe Woodbloke (?) has used a 10000 ceramic stone for the final polish with superb results.

Cheers

Karl


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## Philly (16 Dec 2007)

Sean
Apologies for making you wait so long :wink: 

I bought a leather strop and green compound from Classic Hand Tools - it doesn't seem to be on the website so give Mike a call. 

To use hone your edge as usual (to 6000) then give it a couple of strokes back and front on the strop. Easy-peasy!
I usually shave a little hair off the back of my hand - if i can't easily do this from the stones then the strop usually takes it to that level. If you can shave hair - it is ready to rumble  
I appreciate that I should be able to shave hair straight from the 6000 stone - time being short I'm not always as thorough as I should be with my sharpening regime. Please don't tell Mr C :lol: 
Hope this helps
Philly


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## tnimble (16 Dec 2007)

When stropping use only back strokes, you have a better edge and no risk of diggin in. Strops can easily made from an old leather belt (if it's wide enough for the edge you want to strop).


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## seanybaby (16 Dec 2007)

I don't accept your apologies, i shaved my grans beard, while waiting just for you to answer my questions :shock: 

My test is to try and shave what hairs i have on my left arm. This works with after sharpening with the 6000. Thats why i say i have a super sharp edge (to what i know sharp).

Is using a strop exactly the same as using stones. ie do the bevel, then the back?

Cheers


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## tnimble (16 Dec 2007)

seanybaby":3h8t46hr said:


> I don't accept
> Is using a strop exactly the same as using stones. ie do the bevel, then the back?



Yes, nothing different under the sun.


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## woodbloke (16 Dec 2007)

Sean - I used to think that a stopped edge was pretty good until I did a little experiment with Newt a while ago. I now use the 10000g Spyderco ceramic stone from Axminster which gives a significantly better edge. I use Mr C's method of 23deg ground bevel, 33deg honed bevel (green DMT) and 35deg micro-bevel on the Spyderco, with the 'ruler trick' being used on the flat side of a plane blade (but not a chisel blade ) - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (17 Dec 2007)

Sean,

I also use a leather strop. I bought a piece of leather from Mike Hudson of Clico (Clifton planes) at one of the shows. I think Classic Hand Tools also sell the same stuff. I glued together two pieces of 18mm MDF and stuck it to that with some Bostik general purpose adhesive. This gives it a nice, flat surface







On the strop you can see a bar of jewellers rouge which is what I use on mine. I occasionally mix a little Vaseline with it as well. 

You can buy the bars of polishing compounds individually or in sets like this. Most tool shops seem to sell it.






The colour denotes the coarseness of the compound. Black is the most coarse and the jewellers rouge (maroon in colour) is the finest. Mike Husdson supplies a blue one which is quite fine and also gives excellent results.

I use the black one on MDF wheels in an electric drill for honing the shaped part of beading blades like this






When polishing your blades on a strop, only ever draw the blade backwards or you will cut into the strop. I use a honing guide when sharpening my blades. I leave it in the guide to polish the bevel, then take it out of the guide and do the flat side of the blade on the strop. Just a few strokes will give you a mirror finish.

Hope this helps

Cheers :ho2 

Paul


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## mr (17 Dec 2007)

Paul in that first / top most pic of your setup is the right hand end of the strop coated in vaseline with diagonal stripes of rouge? (accounting for the colour changes I'm seeing in the picture) Is that how you coat your strop or do you use much more rouge than that? 

Cheers Mike


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2007)

Mike - that's about as much rouge as you need. As Paul says you work it into the leather with a finger full of Vaseline and it does work _very_ well. I keep my strop on the sharpening bench but I've made a cover for it so that other crud and general workshop [email protected] don't get embedded in it. Excellent as well for polishing brass screw heads - Rob :ho2


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## Paul Chapman (17 Dec 2007)

Hi Mike,

Yes, that's about the amount of rouge I use. I only put Vaseline on occasionally - just rub it in with my finger. Got that idea from Rob (Woodbloke) - although I think I heard Jim Kingshott recommend it's use as well. Helps to keep the leather supple and stops too much build up of polishing compound, although if you get a build up you can scrape it off. I leave the other end of the strop clear and wipe the blade on that. It's all very simple and quite difficult to get it wrong  

If you are at any of the shows, speak to Mike Hudson of Clico. He originally put me on to the idea of using a strop. His blades are like mirrors :shock: 

Cheers :ho2 

Paul


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## mr (17 Dec 2007)

Ive got a range of materials Im about to try out as a strop varying from a scrap of mdf to a ripped up cereal box glued to a piece of ply. Do you find theres a danger in rounding over the bevels on leather due to compression , however little, of the leather itself dring stropping? Obviously people have been doing it for years so perhaps not...

Cheers Mike


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2007)

mr":1rcp9199 said:


> Ive got a range of materials Im about to try out as a strop varying from a scrap of mdf to a ripped up cereal box glued to a piece of ply. Do you find theres a danger in rounding over the bevels on leather due to compression , however little, of the leather itself dring stropping? Obviously people have been doing it for years so perhaps not...
> 
> Cheers Mike



Mike, that thought had occurred to me, it may well happen but it doesn't seem to affect the overall edge as any rounding is removed the next time the blade is honed, so it's probably a continual cycle of honing and then rounding and then back to honing, if you see what I mean :? If you can get hold off a fairly wide leather belt that can be used or you could even cut up one of SWIMBO's leather handbags to use as strop :lol: - Rob


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## tnimble (17 Dec 2007)

woodbloke":33gfhldh said:


> If you can get hold off a fairly wide leather belt that can be used or you could even cut up one of SWIMBO's leather handbags to use as strop :lol: - Rob



You might find out about other kind of strops.


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## mr (17 Dec 2007)

Thats very likely and not a thing to be taken lightly. 

Cheers Mike


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## newt (17 Dec 2007)

Of course if they have an excessive number of handbags (greater than 50, personal experience) would one with a hole in the side be noticed.


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## mr (17 Dec 2007)

newt":24n1j1jf said:


> Of course if they have an excessive number of handbags (greater than 50, personal experience) would one with a hole in the side be noticed.



They don't need a hole in the side. The tops are never secured anyway. My other half has lost her phone twice, her door keys, Her office keys, her purse all this year, all falling out of an open handbag. 

Cheers Mike


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## tnimble (17 Dec 2007)

And even when they would hand one over to be 'sacrificed' they have changed their mind at the exact same moment you have made the first cut.


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## newt (17 Dec 2007)

We could probably open an interesting thread on handbags. Why is everything except the house and furniture carried in handbags, compared to men who by comparison carry very little, although Roy on coronation street has a handbag I am told. Perhaps it is just that simple, if men had handbags they would fill them to bursting point. Would you feel a . carrying a handbag, even if it was marked on the side "men only".


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## mr (17 Dec 2007)

The only time Ive ever felt the need for a bag is when travelling. Needing wallet, tickets, passport and book to hand but even then a "manbag" just doesn't do it. 

Cheers Mike


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2007)

mr":3ai6lbj8 said:


> Thats very likely and not a thing to be taken lightly.
> 
> Cheers Mike



Mike - it's called _'living on the edge' _:lol: honed, stropped or however you want it :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (17 Dec 2007)

mr":zp6skfvi said:


> Do you find theres a danger in rounding over the bevels on leather due to compression , however little, of the leather itself dring stropping?



As long as you ensure that the blade is kept dead flat on the strop, I've found that you get no rounding over.

Cheers :ho2 

Paul


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## DaveL (17 Dec 2007)

Why not take the safe way out? 
Visit the local charity shops and buy an old leather bomber jacket, loads of leather for all sorts of things in the shop and you don't have to keep looking over your shoulder as to where you left that freshly honed chisel. :shock: :wink:


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## newt (17 Dec 2007)

As Woodblock says the Spyderco 10000 works a treat.


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## mr (17 Dec 2007)

I didnt think ceramic stones were reliably flat ot have times and technologies moved on from there? 

Cheers Mike


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## newt (17 Dec 2007)

Mine is sufficiently flat and I believe Rob,s is.


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2007)

mr":plj9isgy said:


> I didnt think ceramic stones were reliably flat ot have times and technologies moved on from there?
> 
> Cheers Mike



Mike - yes, they have. Both mine and Pete's (Newt) stones are dead flat. Even if they were slightly out of true, it's a fairly easy matter to get them flat with a DMT (if you use them). I didn't need to and neither did Pete - Rob


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## seanybaby (17 Dec 2007)

So all i have to do is drag the blade backwards over the rouge. How many times? 10?


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2007)

Sounds about right, maybe even less if the honed bevel is narrow, would advise you to use MrC's ruler trick on the back tho' - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (17 Dec 2007)

seanybaby":1wjj596b said:


> So all i have to do is drag the blade backwards over the rouge. How many times? 10?



Yes, that would probably do it - but the number isn't critical. One point about the ruler trick (which I don't use) is that you can't really do that on a strop because you move the blade sideways. So if you want to use the ruler trick, you would have to confine the use of the strop to just the other side.

Cheers :ho2 

Paul


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## gidon (17 Dec 2007)

An alternative to stropping is using my method described here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDoRLdR4zC0
I use 0.5 micron microfinishing film on top of my green DMT stone for the final polishing.
I get about the same edge as I do if I strop (with some Clifton blue soap and leather) but it's more controlled and I would guess edge retention would be slightly better. But very hard to measure.
I'm interested in this ceramic stone Woodbloke and Newt are using. I too dismissed this when they were gaining popularity because of rumours they weren't flat. Possible Christmas present ... . Do you find they stay flat? Do you use water or oil on them?
Cheers
Gidon


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2007)

Gidon wrote:


> I'm interested in this ceramic stone Woodbloke and Newt are using. I too dismissed this when they were gaining popularity because of rumours they weren't flat. Possible Christmas present ... . do you find they stay flat? Do you use water or oil on them?


They stay flat and are as hard as a hard thing :? made from synthetic saphires (I think) so any wear over a period of time ought to be negligible and if it does go concave after a period (which I doubt) then it shouldn't be too difficult to correct with a DMT. I just use a bit of paraffin on mine, Pete uses DW40 as a lubricant but the stone can be used dry if needed, just easier to remove any swarf if it's part of a liquid - Rob


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## gidon (17 Dec 2007)

Perfect - thanks Rob.
 - they are out of stock at Axminster.
Cheers
Gidon


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## Lofty (17 Dec 2007)

Hi Woodbloke,

I am interested in your comments about Spyderco ceramic stones. I bought one (fine grit in a blue box) 18 months or so ago for sharpening carving chisels. I then became interested in having really sharp plane blades so naturally thought I could use it to provide the final polish. But, when I checked the flatness it is anything but flat. It bows quite a bit along its length and is convex across the width (on both sides strangely). I have assumed that it is therefore not suitable for wide blades. Or am I missing something? Perhaps mine is a bad example? Do you really think a diamond stone would flatten it?

Mike


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2007)

Lofty":39osfmg2 said:


> Hi Woodbloke,
> 
> I am interested in your comments about Spyderco ceramic stones. I bought one (fine grit in a blue box) 18 months or so ago for sharpening carving chisels. I then became interested in having really sharp plane blades so naturally thought I could use it to provide the final polish. But, when I checked the flatness it is anything but flat. It bows quite a bit along its length and is convex across the width (on both sides strangely). I have assumed that it is therefore not suitable for wide blades. Or am I missing something? Perhaps mine is a bad example? Do you really think a diamond stone would flatten it?
> 
> Mike



Mike - the stone I have is the 10000g in a black box which I bought from Axminster about 6 weeks ago. I've just been out to the workshop to check it again with a steel rule and one surface is dead flat in both directions, the other side is *very* slightly concave. It ought to be possible (haven't tried) to flatten one with a coarse DMT stone in much the same way as a waterstone can be flattened against another stone. That said, a diamond stone is the_ only_ thing that will touch them. I think it's possible that you did get hold of a duff one, probably too late to get a refund or exchange now. If you have a DMT, it's worth having a go, you've got nothing to loose, but would suggest you go very carefully 8-[ - Rob


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## Lofty (17 Dec 2007)

Thanks Rob, I'll give it a try and let you know how I get on.

Mike


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## tnimble (17 Dec 2007)

Lofty":2e8onnc1 said:


> Thanks Rob, I'll give it a try and let you know how I get on.
> 
> Mike


Would be very interesting to know if and how easily one could flatten it if one would have or receive a dicky stone.


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## Lofty (17 Dec 2007)

I've just spent about half an hour trying to flatten my ceramic stone and it has definitely improved it  I haven't tried to flatten it lenght ways, just across the width. It is just the ends that are not quite right now. I just hope that it hasn't damaged my diamond stone. Not sure how to check that. It loooooks ok but just a bit concerned that it produced dark coloured 'swarf' in addition to the white! Perhaps it was just cleaning it up!

Mike


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## Evergreen (17 Dec 2007)

Sean

From all the advice above, you will undoubtably obtain a very shiny, ultra sharp cutting edge. But you need to ask yourself - how long will that very shiny, ultra sharp cutting edge last? If it lasts only a couple of strokes on the wood, you may not find it worth the effort. 

So my few words of advice would be to reserve the "special" sharpening treatment for your tools that hold their edge best and that usually means the ones made of specific high quality steels, hand forged, etc.

Regards.


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## Digit (17 Dec 2007)

> or you could even cut up one of SWIMBO's leather handbags to use as strop - Rob



Christ! You believe in living dangerously don't you? :lol: 
The only strop I've ever had resulted in my old man giving me a 'belt' around the ear! :lol: 
But joking apart, I reckon I'm going to have to give it a try, _when_ I finally get the new shop up and running. I've got a three and half foot wide door to make and 16ft of window frames as well, but till the machines are all up and running its 'taters' out there!

Roy.


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## ivan (18 Dec 2007)

These bars of compound are wax based and you can grate them when SWMBO is not looking and dissolve in white spirit for easy application to leather or (say) maple or mdf. Tilgear sell several grades (but not the green chromium dioxide one) The substrate controls teh degree of edge dubbing you're likely to get.


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## seanybaby (24 Dec 2007)

Good point evergreen. Now i can justify some LN chisels and A2 blades :lol: 

I have been playing around, and my blades have got sharper, i think :roll: 

For the strop i used a piece of old leather from a suitcase. It's about 2mm thick and quite stiff. Does it matter what kind of leather used? ie soft, hard, thick thin?


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## woodbloke (25 Dec 2007)

seanbaby wrote:


> For the strop i used a piece of old leather from a suitcase. It's about 2mm thick and quite stiff. Does it matter what kind of leather used? ie soft, hard, thick thin?


reindeer skin :lol: ....hat,coat,etc - Rob


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## katellwood (31 Dec 2007)

Interesting reading on this link, 

For what its worth my sharpening regime starts with a Black 12" DMT diamond plate followed by a red plate both for flattening the back and creating the bevel. recently I have been using a honing gauge 

For the final polish I have flattened the endgrain on an offcut of 9" x 3" Iroko, flattening with an extremely sharp block plane, (do not sand as sanding fills the pores of the wood preventing the polishing compound filling the same).

I then rub a white polishing compound into the endgrain and polish in the same way as sharpening on the stones, lubricate the compound with a splash of white spirit or alternatively WD40. Polish the back as you would on the plate, however for the bevel pull the blade back in the honing gauge a few milimetres, this creates a micro bevel. When placing on the end grain block sharpen on the pull stroke for a few strokes before polishing on the push stroke, if the compound turns black then the polish is doing its job,

If you are unfortunate enough to get a dig in this is easily repaired by refacing the end grain and refilling with polish 

Never failed for me


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## Joe (3 Jan 2008)

I don't know if anyone is still watching this topic, but I wanted to ask - is it a really bad idea to use the leather honing wheel on a Tormek grinder rather than a traditional strop?


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## Paul Chapman (4 Jan 2008)

Joe, the danger is the possibility of rounding over the edge. A sharp edge depends on two flat surfaces meeting, so you ideally need to keep the blade flat on the strop - this is easy on a flat strop but rather difficult on a wheel.

I do, however, use a wheel for honing some shaped blades (eg beading cutters from a combination plane). I hone the bevel side on a wheel but the flat side on a flat strop.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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