# New saw arrives tomorrow.



## woodndrum (30 Jan 2014)

After removing many splinters from arthritic fingers (as a result of much head scratching) New saw ordered.

Postcard today from the FedEx holiday camp marked attempted delivery while stocking up at Tesco.
Quick phone call and tomorrow is the delivery day. So what is it I hear you ask at the back of the room. Much discussion on here has helped greatly in my choice. 
Axminster is always a machine of choice for me. Metal lathe and vertical milling machine, and wood lathe are all white and work hard. But scroll saw is not white, nor is it grey trade! Excalibur also fell at the selection stage. So bright orange is at the top of the leader board for many and with good reason. However at my age I'm not sure I will be around long enough to recoup the outlay. The saw would last without doubt, but I fear I will be in a recycled cardboard box by then.
So what will I unwrap tomorrow? 

The choice for me, a Proxxon DS460 pictures and thoughts about it to follow if anyone is interested.


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## Jmac80 (30 Jan 2014)

Exciting times! Just waiting on my orange one to arrive next week

Any plans on your first project?

Look forward to reading your review of the saw as it's one i was initially looking at, But in my predictable usual way i start with a budget of £100 and it slowly increases until i buy the most expensive one out lol

Good Luck.

James


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## martinka (30 Jan 2014)

Just been looking at some videos of it. First time I saw that model. Be interesting to hear how you get on with it. One video shows a coin stood on edge as the saw is started and it never moves, so at the very least it seems to have low vibration.


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## stevebuk (30 Jan 2014)

hi keith
looking forward to your review of the saw and what you intend to make with it after its arrival..


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## scrimper (30 Jan 2014)

Yes indeed it looks quite a decent machine. I too am looking forward to hearing how you get on with it.


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## mac1012 (31 Jan 2014)

plus one for how you get on especially with blade changing etc , we need more people to give reviews of different machines and pictures as I am sure there is plenty of people on this forum who do decent work on other machines than a orange one 8) 

I have the orange one basic model I keep thinking of upgrading and get jealous when I see all the post of people waiting for new machines  

I think its because I want the excitement of a new toy rather than any massive benefit over my hegner m1 which does pretty much what I want of it 

cant tell you how many times I have changed my mind over getting the multicut 2s 8) 8) 8) 

mark


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## Philip n (31 Jan 2014)

Keith, I'm particularly interested in how you get on with this saw. 
My own saw is on its last legs and the DS460 is the current front runner when it comes to replacements, but it's hard to find any opinions on it.
I did briefly speak to a guy who owns one about a year ago, and he was full of praise for it, but I didn't get much chance to question him on it.
It has some really interesting features ( I especially like the micro adjuster on the table tilt. Should be very helpful when doing inlays) that seem to be unique to this saw.
Anyway, best of luck with it and I look forwards to reading your thoughts on it.


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## woodndrum (1 Feb 2014)

Rather like the summer Sun, here today and gone tomorrow. Great sadness.


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## Jmac80 (1 Feb 2014)

??? :?


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## scrimper (1 Feb 2014)

Jmac80":3cpnji61 said:


> ??? :?




+1


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## Geoffrey (2 Feb 2014)

woodndrum":h4iu7za6 said:


> Rather like the summer Sun, here today and gone tomorrow. Great sadness.


ominous


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## woodndrum (2 Feb 2014)

The DS460 arrived safe, and very well packaged. Double wrapped the first carton was taped and fastened with those vicious plastic strapping. This revealed a gloss printed carton with instructions in six or seven languages. Splitting the tape showed a complete polystyrene cocoon protecting the classy looking paintwork and polished aluminium.

Out and on the bench the solid casting lump formed a rigid base for the well engineered arms and linkage. The table is transported at 45deg angle and showing two major plus points for this machine. The table has the usual quadrant angular adjustment but with a fine tuning screw thread. There are also detent for often used settings. The table is also able to slide backwards by about 100mm which brings the front edge of the table to a point just behind the blade. Making blade changes very easy.
On the front right of the table there are slots machined to accept the blade holders. The blaade can easily be inserted in the holders, and is always set at the same exact length. This repeatability makes it easier to set the same blade tension and the shape of the blade holder always presents the blade in exactly the correct plane. Straight out of the box the table locked into the forward position and was spot on for level and exactly at 90deg to the blade.

The saw was immediately capable of cutting accurate shapes and the small blower was adequate for keeping the cut line clear. Very impressive clean cuts and accurate angles. Changing to a finer blade was the work of a few seconds. Blade holders into table slots, loosen the nuts, slip in the new blade and nip up the nuts and hook the blade holder onto the hook shaped top and bottom arm, reset tension and good to go again.

Now if you have read this far you will have spotted what is to me the one failing of this saw. Because the blade holders are almost in two parts and the blade is trapped by tightening a 10mm nut it is very difficult to correctly mount and tension the blade for an internal cut.

My best time to undo the blade and reposition it in a new hole ready to cut was in excess of two minutes. Now I have to admit that my hands are not always steady, and joints are sore, but I'm afraid this saw is not for me, not for the type of work I do. My fault entirely I chose the machine n e and bought on the internet, without advice and bought a great machine which was not designed to do the job I want.


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## Philip n (2 Feb 2014)

Do you have to remove the blade clamps completely to do internal cuts, or is it just the process of loosening and tightening that takes so long? 

Either way, that sounds like a ridiculous design flaw. Especially given how their videos tout the saw's simple blade changing system.

I hope you have better luck with whichever saw you go with next, Keith.


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## Jmac80 (2 Feb 2014)

Nice review thanks.
It does sound a decent solid machine but as you read about so many machines the blade changing is an issue!!
Ah well save a few pennies and get a hegner? you only live one after all


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## woodndrum (2 Feb 2014)

> Do you have to remove the blade clamps completely


Yes you do, but that is only half the problem. You need one hand for the spanner and one to steady the top arm. When the blade is released from the top it will drop with the weight of the bottom blade clamp. The blade and bottom clamp have to be held in place as the blade is inserted through the workpiece, and that is where you then need (another) two hands to locate blade and then tighten the clamping nut. There are no cam levers or thumb screws here its back to a nut spinner!


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## powertools (2 Feb 2014)

woodndrum":yyttwbf9 said:


> > Do you have to remove the blade clamps completely
> 
> 
> Yes you do, but that is only half the problem. You need one hand for the spanner and one to steady the top arm. When the blade is released from the top it will drop with the weight of the bottom blade clamp. The blade and bottom clamp have to be held in place as the blade is inserted through the workpiece, and that is where you then need (another) two hands to locate blade and then tighten the clamping nut. There are no cam levers or thumb screws here its back to a nut spinner!



Are you sure that there is no way to keep the bottom clamp in place after undoing the top clamp?


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## woodndrum (2 Feb 2014)

> Are you sure that there is no way to keep the bottom clamp in place after undoing the top clamp?



Both D shape blade clamps rest in or are hooked under a v shaped support that would be used to secure pinned blades. (that is why i suggest the clamp is in two parts.
i) the part the clamps onto the blade end and can be supported in the table top to set blade length
ii) the part that is permanently attached to the end of the top and bottom arm
There is a small shaped plate below the bottom v groove which is also fastened to the arm, but in my experience this only served to stop the blade falling to the floor, and bounced it onto my knee.

The blade clamping idea is very secure, but it relies on being able to thread the blade through a hole drilled in the clamping bolt. The bolt itself is possibly M5 so the hole isn't that big a target.

The saw is excellent for cutting intricate shapes, and is rock solid in operation. For cutting interlocking puzzles and a lot of compound cuts this would possibly be a good choice. The fault is mine in that I made the wrong choice of machine, one which is not designed for the type of work I want to do.


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## powertools (2 Feb 2014)

From the diagrams I can see of your saw I think that you could use a Hegner type blade clamp for the top that would not need you to thread the blade through a small hole and for the bottom clamp I think that there is a spring steel part that goes over the clamp I put a small block of wood between that and the clamp on mine to keep it in place when I undo the top clamp.


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## martinka (2 Feb 2014)

Do you change the blade often enough that taking a couple of minutes is a problem? Solving that problem could be as easy as buying spare bottom clamps and having them ready with blades fitted. Always assuming spares are available. As for feeding the blade through holes for internal cuts, I'm sure something could be made to keep the bottom clamp in place, even if it's just the piece of wood that PT suggests. It looks to me like a piece of rubber tube, or something similar, could be pushed over the lip that protrudes below the clamp to stop it dropping down. One thing I would definitely do is change the nuts on the clamps for wing nuts, or get some alloy handles made. 
If, on the other hand, you are going to send it back, I just wasted my time typing that lot. :mrgreen:


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## woodndrum (2 Feb 2014)

Hmmm points to ponder,
Blade changing, I used that term to also cover the act of relocating the blade from one internal cut, to the next one. Sorry if that caused confusion. A project like my aviator might have 80 or more internal cuts. I'll leave you to do the arithmetic. So yes I do consider this a problem.

Yes wedging a piece of wood into the end of the saw arm would work. So too would cable ties or tape. However the blade block is designed to pivot an swing to give a perpendicular stroke. A pendulum stroke would be much less accurate and would undo the benefit of decent blades.

Yes New blade holders could be obtained, they might or might not work. Certainly they would invalidate a warranty.

I admire all of your inventiveness and am truly grateful for the help offered. Some of the ideas may well give my obsolete Rexon Saw another month or two. Am I the the only one on the Forum who expects a £360 (ish) machine to work faultlessly out of the box, and without modification? I'm glad that the supplier has a similar view to me, and the machine will shortly be on its way back, for a full refund.

Customer service is when the client comes back, and the product doesn't.


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## martinka (3 Feb 2014)

woodndrum":2ddafvmj said:


> Hmmm points to ponder,
> Blade changing, I used that term to also cover the act of relocating the blade from one internal cut, to the next one. Sorry if that caused confusion. A project like my aviator might have 80 or more internal cuts. I'll leave you to do the arithmetic. So yes I do consider this a problem.



I cut a loco with around 400 internal cuts, so I recognise the problem.



> Yes wedging a piece of wood into the end of the saw arm would work. So too would cable ties or tape. However the blade block is designed to pivot an swing to give a perpendicular stroke. A pendulum stroke would be much less accurate and would undo the benefit of decent blades.



I was thinking of something to stop the clamp dropping down while the blade was fed through a hole, rather than to wedge it in place. Rather like the Hegner setup.



> Yes New blade holders could be obtained, they might or might not work. Certainly they would invalidate a warranty.



How would spare blade clamps invalidate the warranty? You could hardly be penalised for using their own spares. I know at least 3 Hegner owners that have spare clamps to make blade changing quicker.



> I admire all of your inventiveness and am truly grateful for the help offered. Some of the ideas may well give my obsolete Rexon Saw another month or two. Am I the the only one on the Forum who expects a £360 (ish) machine to work faultlessly out of the box, and without modification? I'm glad that the supplier has a similar view to me, and the machine will shortly be on its way back, for a full refund.



I don't think anyone would expect to buy any machine at any cost and expect to have to modify it - unless it was a Harley-Davidson. It's the nature of forums that people like to come up with ideas, they don't have to be acted on, and sometimes they aren't even serious, but just maybe the ideas will be of use to someone who bought and decided to keep one of these saws and searched for the answer to a problem. 

I really think everyone would hope you could return the saw as you obviously weren't happy with it and I hope you have better luck with your next one.

P.S. You wouldn't by any chance now be in the market for a 26" Diamond scroll saw, would you? :wink:


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## Philip n (3 Feb 2014)

Keith, I had a look at the saw's user manual on Axminster's site and the method it outlines for doing internal cuts doesn't involve removing the blade clamps.

I'm not trying to contradict you or anything - you have the saw. I don't. - it would be a shame to return what seems to be an otherwise excellent saw if the problem could be sorted out.


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## powertools (3 Feb 2014)

woodndrum":136dykuw said:


> Hmmm points to ponder,
> Blade changing, I used that term to also cover the act of relocating the blade from one internal cut, to the next one. Sorry if that caused confusion. A project like my aviator might have 80 or more internal cuts. I'll leave you to do the arithmetic. So yes I do consider this a problem.
> 
> Yes wedging a piece of wood into the end of the saw arm would work. So too would cable ties or tape. However the blade block is designed to pivot an swing to give a perpendicular stroke. A pendulum stroke would be much less accurate and would undo the benefit of decent blades.
> ...



I would expect you saw to work faultlessly out of the box and from your review it would seem that it does.
When disconnecting the blade for internal cuts it does not need to be removed completely and laid out into the holes in the table just the top clamp can be released leaving the blade in the saw.
As said above it's your choice to do what you think is right.
If I have misunderstood the problem just forget I got involved.


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