# Suggestions for starting again.



## woodbrains (5 Dec 2017)

Hello,

I have been getting more and more dissatisfied with my job in school over the last few years; the new Design Technology curriculum, which is total bunkum, being a part and the disenfranchised kids being another. This last term has been particularly soul destroying and I have to do something else for my sanity.

The only option open to me is to become a self employed maker again. I am too old to retrain and frankly I haven't the funds to quit work for however long the training would take. But I have been a maker and designer of furniture before, so know full well the likelyhood of failure is high and the potential (financial) rewards low. I certainly never made any money when I tried it last time and was younger and more energetic.

So, does anyone have any ideas how I might have a better chance at success and avoid the same pitfalls as last time. Bearing in mind that I am pretty much penniless as school technician is a fairly poorly paid job so savings are something I don't have. I do have loads of tools and machines, so want for nothing there, but little space to use them in. My shed is 5 by 6 metres, which may sound big to a hobbyist, but get a Planer, thicknesser, tablesaw, bandsaw and bench in there and the space to store timber and actually construct furniture is vanishingly small. Besides, it is not a commercial set up and could not be used for any long term business venture. I have rented workshops before, but if I was to do so again, I would need to make money fairly quickly, otherwise bankruptcy will be swift.

Without blowing my own trumpet, I do have the skills, perhaps rusted a bit since I was a full time maker, but will polish up quickly and I can design too. I was thinking kitchens, free standing as a bit of niche as there are many fitted kitchen suppliers about. But I do live in a fairly low rent area, so advertising will be key. And I will be solo, at least initially, so huge projects might defeat me. 

Ideas please, I need to do something else rather desperately.

Mike.


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2017)

I wouldn't worry too much about working from home/shed as long as neighbours don't complain about noise etc. Millions of people work from home quite legally without paying business rates or getting planning permission. 
Other than that - make small stuff in multiples. Sell on the net. Learn to do your own website with html.
We've been here before Mike - best of luck!


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## custard (5 Dec 2017)

I can't make the numbers work from custom furniture alone. I set myself a financial target of £1,000 a week gross contribution (i.e. net revenue after deducting all variable costs, which is overwhelmingly hardwood). If I hit that it would deliver £50k a year with which to cover overheads (rent, machinery depreciation, running a vehicle, insurance, etc) and leave enough for a living salary. That's a viable small business. 

In five years I've hit that target for a few months here and there, sometimes four or five months in succession, but then it falls off a cliff. I've come to the conclusion I'll never hit that target purely from free standing furniture. Looking around at other makers, and asking a few careful questions, leads me to the conclusion that precious few, if anyone at all, is hitting that target either!

I've drifted towards doing what many, many other furniture makers do, combining furniture with something else. Over the past year I've spent nearly half my time working as a sub contractor for a sub contractor, making laminated timber components for a big yacht fit out job. The first few jobs were quite interesting, but then it became fairly repetitive. Furthermore, when you're that far down the sub contractor chain you never get to see the complete finished job nor get any input into the design decisions. You basically just make to a plan and burn the midnight oil to hit the delivery dates. On the other hand it pays well and, because I live in a big yachting area, there's a fair bit of work around. None the less, I'm pulling back from it, I'm lucky enough that I don't need that type of work to put food on the table, so I'm trying to rebalance the schedule.

You mention kitchen work. I know a few makers who have gone that route, but it does seem to be very space hungry. Basically you need to store all the cabs for at least one job while still having enough room to crack on with another job. That seems to demand well over 100 square metres. But that's my observation from the outside looking in, maybe people actually involved in kitchen work think differently.

There's a guy on this forum who does smaller fitted jobs (alcoves etc) and works from a small workshop, but he's located in super affluent South West London, and fairly centrally too. Consequently he can take advantage of all the £1m+ Victorian terraced houses where a few grand for a fitted alcove is little more than small change in the scheme of things.

I suspect finding a formula that works is very much a local, individual thing. It depends on your individual location, resources, contacts etc. I don't believe there's a silver bullet solution that will work for everyone everywhere. But in any event that formula is so elusive, and takes so long to refine into a profitable and reliable business model, that I'd say no matter how much you dislike the day job you should hang on to a regular income for as long as humanly possible while experimenting with self employed woodworking.

Good luck!


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## MikeG. (5 Dec 2017)

Well best of luck with this possible change. You could phase out one career and phase in the new one with a period of overlap, where you make some stuff in your spare time, but still have some income coming in from your existing job. These days having a good website and maybe a Facebook presence is a key part of any marketing strategy, and, as I am sure you know.....the easy bit is making the stuff. The difficult part is selling it.

As for space......you could maybe get rid of the saw table. They consume acres of space, and lots of really good makers manage perfectly well without. And if you have separate planer and thicknesser, then swap two machines for a combined one. There are some pretty decent ones around these days it seems. You might also consider one or two judiciously placed hatches in your external walls through which to feed longer lengths of timber. This can allow you to put machines rather closer to a wall than you might otherwise.

My final bit of advice is that you aren't going to win if you try to compete with east Asian imports. You'll have to do something they don't, and make stuff which people either can't get elsewhere, or aspire to own because the design and quality is better than elsewhere. Trying to beat Oak Furnitureland at it's game is a fool's errand.


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## Mr T (5 Dec 2017)

Hi Mike

Sorry to hear the job is getting you down. Not sure I can add much beyond what Jacob and Custard have said on the making front. Have you considered tuition (not children  ). I have more than enough interest and may be able to refer to you, there's not many people teaching in the north.


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## Beau (5 Dec 2017)

Yep it's all been said really. Kitchens, windows etc are were I would go if chasing a living. Sadly they all take up space unless you can face fitting kitchens not made by you. Helping a friend out at the moment who to be frank is pretty novice at woodwork but he is still getting between 150-200 a day which is strong money for a woodworker in this neck of the woods. I never made that doing furniture. As said in the thread about precision learn the phrase "that'll do"

Only other way I can see is to come up with a design for a small niche product that you can sell to the rich. Cant help on the last one as I would be doing it myself if I had  

Good luck with it all
Beau


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## RobinBHM (5 Dec 2017)

Around our neck of the woods there is always a demand for fitted furniture, bedrooms, living rooms, media walls, home offices.

I know they are generally large items but would you consider buying in the carcase parts from Cutwrights or similar already drilled and edge lipped ready fro assemble. You could then make the face frames and doors. With a few jigs and some router tables you could make set up time every small so that door making would not take you very long.

I run a joinery works, mostly doing windows and doors, but we know a local carpenter that mostly does fitted cabinets, sometimes we let him use some bench space to do his cabinets, he seems to do ok, charging around £200/day plus profit

As Custard points out, the free standing high end cabinetmaking is a very difficult market sector to make a decent return. Hence why my suggestion of fitted furniture. Its not hard to beat the price and quality of Sharps and the like, whilst still making money.


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2017)

Mr T":7z1g1fy5 said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> Sorry to hear the job is getting you down. Not sure I can add much beyond what Jacob and Custard have said on the making front. Have you considered tuition (not children  ). I have more than enough interest and may be able to refer to you, there's not many people teaching in the north.



Hello Chris,

I did consider tuition, years ago in fact. When we first met, when you visited me in the workshop in Wallasey, I had just moved from a workshop I tried to get going in North Wales. The idea was that it would be an enticing place for learners to come for woodwork tuition; it would have been great for a holiday in the countryside etc. But I just couldn't get the place off the ground. I sank a fair bit of capital into getting the barn into a state where I could work, but the funds evaporated and I had nothing left to promote myself. I'm not sure how many woodworkers would want to visit a workshop in industrial Birkenhead. I should look for a workshop out of town, really, and perhaps think along these lines again.

As for Custard suggesting other avenues, well yes, I agree with him, I'm just not sure which avenue. It is not likely to be a yachting one around here, despite being on the Mersey! I did do a lot of alcove shelving units, in fact they took over almost completely towards the end, but they have to be cheap as chips here. Access to the affluent areas of Cheshire is where it is at, I just don't know how to do it effectively with a small budget. Chris, you did one of the Liverpool Design Shows with me, I got loads of enquiries, some virtual promises, from the Cheshire set that attended those events. Nothing came of any of them, despite following up on every lead.

Batch production always seems like a good idea; it also has its dangers. Sitting on loads of stock that will not shift is heartbreaking; the amount of stuff I've given away to friends to move stuff on is criminal. I don't know if ETSY is worth a try, but to be honest, the few people I know who sell on it aren't shifting a lot of stuff. I always think that seeing items in the flesh is vital for people ti judge the quality. I have just opened an ETSY account and hope to put some things on it soon.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Mike.


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## cowfoot (5 Dec 2017)

I’ve found this book to be very useful in starting a new business -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Financial-Esse ... 0273757989
You might not need any startup capital (be nice though, eh?!) but it’s a worthwhile exercise to consider what you’re attempting from the point of view of an investor.
If you can afford it, pay for a professional photographer and web designer. Makes all the difference.
Best of luck!


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2017)

You can't "design" a business. To start one you make some stuff and see if you can flog it. 
If it sells that tells you which way to go and the business takes care of itself. 
I wouldn't worry about finance, banks, pineapples in suits, etc.


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## cowfoot (5 Dec 2017)

Jacob":1bl9hqsn said:


> You can't "design" a business. To start one you make some stuff and see if you can flog it.
> If it sells that tells you which way to go and the business takes care of itself.
> I wouldn't worry about finance, banks, pineapples in suits, etc.



You can’t “design” furniture, you just nail some wood together and call it a chair...
Seriously though, you stand a _much_ better chance of making money if you do a bit of homework and possibly talk to the odd pineapple in a suit.


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2017)

Jacob":1wmp91z6 said:


> You can't "design" a business. To start one you make some stuff and see if you can flog it.
> If it sells that tells you which way to go and the business takes care of itself.
> I wouldn't worry about finance, banks, pineapples in suits, etc.



Hello,

I have to say that if you 'did' try to design a creative business, you would frighten the living daylights out of yourself. I remember one of these business start up types calculating how much hourly take a one man band would need to gain to get X salary a year, a couple of weeks holidays, overheads, materials, advertising, etc. I can't remember the exact specifics, but the hourly figure was 58 quid. No problem he thought! Best part of £600 per day, three days to make a coffee table that someone would want to pay 200 for! As much as I'd like to predictably work out a business model, I don't think would have the stomach! I'll look out for the book, though!

Mike.


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## dzj (5 Dec 2017)

Do you have a portfolio (drawings, photos..) that can be used to put together a web site?
That's a good starting point for any new business.
Your free standing kitchens idea sounds OK, but how big is your potential market and how fast will you saturate it?
Will shipping infringe on your profit margin? Do you have a plan B, C..?
How wealthy is your client base? If folks in your area are having trouble making ends meet, fitted jobs probably
won't bring much money...Who is your competition? Are they any good?
All questions worth addressing before quitting your day job.
HTH, good luck.


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## custard (5 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":ivbjkody said:


> Access to the affluent areas of Cheshire is where it is at, I just don't know how to do it effectively with a small budget.



I've got pieces in local "interior design" shops that generate a small but regular flow of commissions. I negotiated these myself and it really wasn't that difficult. I'm sure there are similar shops in Alderney Edge, Wilmslow, Didsbury, etc. Incidentally, that would be a sensible "toe in the water" exercise to conduct while you're still in regular employment; make something, find a store willing to take it on a commission basis, but don't quit the day job until that's actually done _and_ you see evidence that you're gaining traction.

Unfortunately the main part of those shop commissions are slab topped tables and desks, I say unfortunately because no matter how much I experiment with the legs and under frames it does eventually get a bit old cranking them out. None the less, it's a good example of an item of furniture that's in demand, but where the high street retailers can't follow due to the inherent variability of the slabs. 

Picking up that theme of trying to differentiate yourself from the mainstream and giving your products a reason to sell, for furniture it does seem to keep coming back to a pretty short list of factors.

1. Design. Tricky, no matter how much we rate our own good taste, the fact is that Ikea can employ infinitely more talented and original designers than any of us. I see a lot of successful, money making, commissions that are basically rooted in established "safe" genres such as Shaker or Arts & Crafts.
2. Craftsman made. Yes, but customers are unlikely to recognise it for themselves. It only really works when you walk a client through the finer points of cabinet making, sometimes they're captivated, most times their eyes glaze over. I think people like the idea of "craftsman made" without wanting to get too bogged down in details. But it helps to have a couple of features, like needle point dovetails or book matched boards, that you can point to as implicit justification for the premium.
3. Unique or unusual timbers. I've definitely seen the advantages of this, but it's required sinking a lot of time into sourcing wood. 
4. Fitted or made to measure. At a stroke you separate yourself from High Street competition. The majority of my commissions are tailored in size to one extent or another, it's also one of the key reasons I'm sceptical about batch production. 
5. Unusual finishes. There's absolutely a style component to finishes and often the High Street either lags the magazines, or finds some finishes (i.e. scorched and ebonised Oak) difficult to mass produce.The down side is that by its very nature finishing trends are temporary, and if it does last then the big players will always find a way of replicating it.


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2017)

Hello,

Custard, I had stuff in interior design shops last time. In fact I have a few small items in a gallery in Knutsford at the moment, and West Kirby. How does it work exactly? The gallery mark up makes an already dear thing into a ridiculously unsalable thing IME. I looked at a place in Chester once, and the owner, who thought I was a buyer rather than a potential exhibitor, almost angrily moaned that the price of the furniture I was looking at was a high because the maker wouldn't come down on his end enough. Needless to say, I didn't suggest my stuff. Once a customer rang me direct to remake a piece of mine they had seen in an interior design shop as they were shrewd enough to realise the mark up was more than double the 'actual' price. That interior shop has now gone, though it was one of the better ones at the time. Another interior shop I tried, in Heswall, lots of money there, was owned by a wife of a banker and just playing at it; you get that a lot. She sold a few lamps if mine, I suspect she actually bought them herself, in reality. She made (a customer made?) a silly offer on a cheval mirror I made, which was too cheap for what it was. I said I would design one for the price she had in mind, but she couldn't see why I wouldn't sell the original. She had it in her shop window for months, despite me saying and her promising not to. I had a bloody hard job getting it back; I think she liked the shop dressed with my stuff for her image. The exposed maple parts have now a rather unsightly yellow suntan, basically ruined, so my wife has it, she doesn't mind. The number of items moved from shop to shop remaining unsold and then needing refinishing or just donating to a grateful friend in a slightly ratty state, makes me wonder if interior design type shops are worth the trouble.

Mike.


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## [email protected] (5 Dec 2017)

sadly, its not all to do with how good the stuff you make is, its alot to do with how you market it and how you come across to clients. Theres loads of woodworkers out there IMO churning out great products but who have crappy websites, naff marketing ideas and don't like networking and interacting with other people so they are destined for 60 hr weeks working for a low amount per hour. On the other hand theres people that tick all the right boxes and "know how to charge" and for them it will be easier. Unfortunately if often seems those that are artisans lack business nous and those that do have that, produce rubbish quality then you have the few that are lucky to have both (and no I aint one of those lol) 

PS use a free Wordpress theme and customise (or not) it for a website......

EDIT
someone alot wiser than me told me a good few years ago "never go back". How right he was :roll:


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":3fm3tpko said:


> sadly, its not all to do with how good the stuff you make is, its alot to do with how you market it and how you come across to clients. Theres loads of woodworkers out there IMO churning out great products but who have crappy websites, naff marketing ideas and don't like networking and interacting with other people so they are destined for 60 hr weeks working for a low amount per hour. On the other hand theres people that tick all the right boxes and "know how to charge" and for them it will be easier. Unfortunately if often seems those that are artisans lack business nous and those that do have that, produce rubbish quality then you have the few that are lucky to have both (and no I aint one of those lol)
> 
> PS use a free Wordpress theme and customise (or not) it for a website......
> 
> ...



Hello, 

It's not a lot to do with how you market it, it is almost entirely to do with it! But I've not met anyone, Custard re-enforcing this, who has the silver bullet solution of how to. Anyone have any clues? 

And about never going back, I have been bitten once and should have more sense to try again. But I make things, I always have and my job at the moment is actually preventing me from making stuff. The kids don't want to; it is like pulling teeth trying to get them to. Craft in school is dead. It is getting worse. I have to do something more creative than I am now. If I wait just a few more years it will be too late, I'm not young anymore. The only positive is, my job pays so poorly, I should be able to turn over enough to remain poor! :lol: 

Mike.


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## No skills (5 Dec 2017)

As Matt has mentioned above its the BS that sells products not how there made - I'd guess at 95% of people generally don't give a dung how something is made as long as it looks and functions how they want it to. 
Increasing productivity by using faster production methods will help claw a bit more profit from what you make but at the cost of some pride in your product.


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## [email protected] (5 Dec 2017)

when I was at school (70s) woodwork attracted mostly skivers. There were a few who were keen but not many. I assume things havnt got better then!


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## [email protected] (5 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":3gmon9kv said:


> [email protected]":3gmon9kv said:
> 
> 
> > sadly, its not all to do with how good the stuff you make is, its alot to do with how you market it and how you come across to clients. Theres loads of woodworkers out there IMO churning out great products but who have crappy websites, naff marketing ideas and don't like networking and interacting with other people so they are destined for 60 hr weeks working for a low amount per hour. On the other hand theres people that tick all the right boxes and "know how to charge" and for them it will be easier. Unfortunately if often seems those that are artisans lack business nous and those that do have that, produce rubbish quality then you have the few that are lucky to have both (and no I aint one of those lol)
> ...



well I dont have a silver bullet but I can say for sure that todays public embrace businesses that are open and transparent. Gone are the days of hiding behind websites, newspaper ads and your products etc and being relatively anon. People buy from people. Today you (not you necessarily!) need to be interacting on FB etc, engaging with people , you tube vids and putting your self out there and the reason this works is so few people feel comfortable doing it so don't


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2017)

cowfoot":2hnyepuz said:


> Jacob":2hnyepuz said:
> 
> 
> > You can't "design" a business. To start one you make some stuff and see if you can flog it.
> ...


Nope. You stand a much better chance if you just start doing it. pineapples are in suits because they can't get proper jobs or run businesses.


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## Beau (5 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":2dsqsflw said:


> woodbrains":2dsqsflw said:
> 
> 
> > [email protected]":2dsqsflw said:
> ...



Interesting what you say about people buy from people. In my new line of work a friend recommended we get a little video done and another friend made one up for us. He does do it professionally so it's not a bodge job done on a phone. It's a not all about the machines but more about us and how we ended up doing what we are doing. I was very hesitant about spending money having it done but we put it up on our website and no doubt our customer love it and we often get favourable comments. They feel like the know us so a it's great ice breaker. We are only selling logs and it helps with this so when you think about the relationship that you need to have for making bespoke furniture a video could well work wonders.


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## cowfoot (6 Dec 2017)

Jacob":1nh99x7u said:


> pineapples are in suits because they can't get proper jobs or run businesses.


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## mr rusty (6 Dec 2017)

FWIW, I am a marketing guy first and a woodworker second. I've recently been making sash windows for a house refurb project after looking around the market and finding a) they are expensive to buy if you want decent quality and b) they have to be made to fit, and if my house is anything to go by, the dimensions of the reveal are not consistent.

With my marketing head on, you have to specialise - become the go-to person fro whatever you do. With my woodworker head on, I doubt you can make enough just doing the "woodwork" when up against computer controlled manufacturing, so you have to "add value" in the service.

A sash window repair or re-install requires a lot more than just the woodwork - measuring, style, glazing, knowledge, building regs, fensa etc BUT none of that is insurmountable. Just a thought! I know what it's like to be stuck in a rut. I was 10 years ago, and left the day job to start a cafe/food outlet (on a sort of "pret" model). Cost me a huge amount of money and only lasted a year! But don't let that stop you, just don't over reach and make sure you always have an exit strategy!


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## Eric The Viking (6 Dec 2017)

mr rusty":2f4zn54j said:


> ... With my marketing head on, you have to specialise - become the go-to person for whatever you do...



And with mine on, too, that's definitely the thing! 

Be in a "space" where nobody else is, for all sorts of reasons:

1. If your marketplace needs you (rather than the other way round) that's a HUGE advantage.

2. Price comparisons are hard: people may or may not be conscious of the "value you're adding", but they are far less likely to judge you on price if what you do is unusual, bordering on unique. You need to be affordable to your target market, but if that's a wealthy or a corporate one, your prices can reflect that, to your advantage. 

3. Entry/exit barriers: If your wealth of experience gives you an edge that others will find hard to match, use that!

E. 
(also a marketer, of around 25 years experience).


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## custard (6 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":3w3gf19v said:


> Hello,
> 
> Custard, I had stuff in interior design shops last time. In fact I have a few small items in a gallery in Knutsford at the moment, and West Kirby. How does it work exactly? The gallery mark up makes an already dear thing into a ridiculously unsalable thing IME. I looked at a place in Chester once, and the owner, who thought I was a buyer rather than a potential exhibitor, almost angrily moaned that the price of the furniture I was looking at was a high because the maker wouldn't come down on his end enough. Needless to say, I didn't suggest my stuff. Once a customer rang me direct to remake a piece of mine they had seen in an interior design shop as they were shrewd enough to realise the mark up was more than double the 'actual' price. That interior shop has now gone, though it was one of the better ones at the time. Another interior shop I tried, in Heswall, lots of money there, was owned by a wife of a banker and just playing at it; you get that a lot. She sold a few lamps if mine, I suspect she actually bought them herself, in reality. She made (a customer made?) a silly offer on a cheval mirror I made, which was too cheap for what it was. I said I would design one for the price she had in mind, but she couldn't see why I wouldn't sell the original. She had it in her shop window for months, despite me saying and her promising not to. I had a bloody hard job getting it back; I think she liked the shop dressed with my stuff for her image. The exposed maple parts have now a rather unsightly yellow suntan, basically ruined, so my wife has it, she doesn't mind. The number of items moved from shop to shop remaining unsold and then needing refinishing or just donating to a grateful friend in a slightly ratty state, makes me wonder if interior design type shops are worth the trouble.
> 
> Mike.



The main part of the furniture I have on commission sale is slab top tables and desks. By virtue of what they are they address some of the problems you've raised. The shopkeeper can use them for displaying other items, and as they fulfil the duty of a display cabinet (along with being "local" production) the shopkeepers are willing to accept a lower mark up, I gave a bit on my expectations, and together we found a price that we could both accept. The nature of these pieces means no two are alike, so there's no issue with price comparisons elsewhere. 

However, the slab top market, which has been a commercial lifeline for me and several other makers I know, is probably approaching its sell-by date. The price of good quality slabs keeps rising, a number of timber yards are offering slabs direct to the public, and the quality is tumbling as everyone piles in. However, right now the demand is still there, so it's a case of making hay while the sun shines.


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2017)

The idea of a niche completely contradicts that the vast majority of businesses are doing very similar stuff to their competitors, in much the same way. 
You may find yourself in a niche market, you may end up mainstream and all stages in between are possible.

If like Mike you are very competent craftsman it doesn't mean you _have_ to make "high end" stuff, it also means you can make ordinary things better and probably more efficiently, than the competition.

To find out which way to go you just have to get started, preferably by making things you like making.


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## Droogs (6 Dec 2017)

Hi Woodbrains,
It can be a hard choice mate. So far yo appear to be thinking of things in a rather narrow field of view (as far as I'm reading). Rather than trying to enter a market that is fairly well saturated such as kitchens and general furniture, why not think outside the box. When I was trying to get things back on track, I had a good look at what I knew and enjoyed and this turned out to be woodworking and IT. So now I make "modded" games consoles, PCs and intergrated IT furniture, I spice these up with quriky designs that take a boring box to a fully veneered, inlaid with marquetry and petra dura centrepiece for the home. I have clients give me the picture they want on the outside of their box, re-create it with marquetry etc and they get a unique piece.

So think about what you know and where you cn apply it out of the ordinary that you think people will want

hth


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## custard (6 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":2v4gunbh said:


> It's not a lot to do with how you market it, it is almost entirely to do with it! ... Anyone have any clues?




I hesitate to give advice, as I said before I haven't once hit my financial targets across a full year as a custom furniture maker. All I can do is share those things that have worked reasonably well. 

I've found a way of exhibiting at a few big county shows for virtually no outlay. One in particular runs a competition sponsored by the Forestry Commision and that gets my work in front of over 100,000 people. Every year that reliably brings in a few commissions and those commissions often lead to other enquiries. It's not however a self fuelling virtuous circle, if I stopped doing it I'm pretty sure the work would dry up within a couple of years.

One thing I always try and do is get additional sales on the back of any commission. Someone orders a hall table, great I'll sell them a mirror to go with it. Someone orders a desk, do they want a chair in a matching timber. Over the course of a year that adds up.

I know you trained under Krenov at the College of the Redwoods. You can grab a _small_ advantage from that. It's not a silver bullet solution but neither is it nothing. I've got a similarly prestigious training background and I milk it for everything it's worth. Don't expect clients to open their cheque books at the first mention of Krenov's name, but there are some occasions when it will definitely tip the balance. Despite the virtual death of the studio furniture market a lot of clients have a secret (or not so secret) hope that they're still buying the Chippendales of tomorrow. Signing your work and making sure they know your training credentials certainly doesn't hurt, a "cabinet on stand" from someone who trained at the feet of the master is more valuable than a "cabinet on stand" from any old Joe Sawdust.

A couple of years ago a local pier was refurbished and I bought up a load of the salvaged Greenheart, turned it into garden furniture and sold it via a local garden centre. That was a bit of a bonanza, and it made me appreciate the value of trumpeting local or notable timber. I know a couple of makers who did a similar thing when Nelson's Victory was restored a few years back. They incorporated salvaged scraps into furniture, and given the yachting heritage where I live, they made out like bandits for a couple of years. It's clear to me that unique timbers gives the small maker an edge over the high street. By making fairly standard Shaker style pieces in spectacular Curly Cherry or Fiddleback Maple, or fairly standard Arts & Crafts pieces in Tiger Oak or Brown Oak I can get a hefty premium and avoid being crushed by price comparisons. It's a lot of work to track down truly exceptional boards, but IMO it's worth it. Most of my clients don't want purely functional furniture, they commission because they want something that's a feature. Achieving that impact via design alone is risky unless you're exceptionally talented, the fact is original design runs you straight into the "Marmite" problem. And if you _are_ that talented then you'd be better off sticking to the drawing board and leaving the making to someone else. But producing fairly standard pieces in jaw droopingly spectacular timbers gets you to the same end point with considerably less risk. 

Then there's the issue that you'll almost inevitably end up combining furniture making with something else, and choosing the right "something else" is probably the biggest factor that determines success or failure. Pretty much every maker that I know who has kept going for more than a few years does it by blending furniture with a more lucrative side line. And the exceptions only manage it because they have a supportive partner in a well paid job, took very early retirement on a decent pension, packed in a fat job in the city after trousering a packet, or some similar reason that exempts them from the financial laws of physics. I've tried a few side lines that have worked for me, but they're mainly viable because of my location, yacht fit outs and "equestrian furniture" (sounds whacky I know but you'd be surprised at how many trophy stables get built and create a demand for high end saddle racks, mounting blocks, bridle racks, etc). The work that I see other makers doing almost always slots into a short list of areas, heritage joinery, joinery packages, teaching, or kitchens and fitted work. That or they stumble across some highly specialised side line, it could be anything from humidors to wooden presses for bookbinding. Just something that turns a profit in the fallow periods between commissions. The problem is these side lines can crowd out the furniture making that got you into the craft in the first place. That's the issue I face, if I was more commercially orientated I'd be winding down the furniture making to almost nothing and concentrating on yacht interior work, it just pays so much better and so much more reliably.

Hope there's something there that's useful. As I said before, I haven't once hit my targets across a full trading year, so I'm no advertisement for guaranteed riches as a furniture maker, but if you're determined to make the leap then maybe there's something from my experiences that you can profit from.

Good luck!


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## woodbrains (6 Dec 2017)

Droogs":2tfcpvzy said:


> Hi Woodbrains,
> It can be a hard choice mate. So far yo appear to be thinking of things in a rather narrow field of view (as far as I'm reading). Rather than trying to enter a market that is fairly well saturated such as kitchens and general furniture, why not think outside the box. When I was trying to get things back on track, I had a good look at what I knew and enjoyed and this turned out to be woodworking and IT. So now I make "modded" games consoles, PCs and intergrated IT furniture, I spice these up with quriky designs that take a boring box to a fully veneered, inlaid with marquetry and petra dura centrepiece for the home. I have clients give me the picture they want on the outside of their box, re-create it with marquetry etc and they get a unique piece.
> 
> So think about what you know and where you cn apply it out of the ordinary that you think people will want
> ...



Hello,

I'm not thinking narrow, freestanding kitchens was just one of many thoughts that cross my mind. People will always buy them in some form or other, so I thought it might be a starting place. I am fully open to any suggestions, as wild and whacky as you like.

Marquetry and petra dura IT furnture, that sounds interesting, do you have any examples? I'm not trying to pinch ideas, honest, but the idea of marquetry in this modern world seems unlikely; it would be interesting to see how you manage to meld the two.

Thanks for the ideas.

Mike.


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## doctor Bob (6 Dec 2017)

I wouldn't consider doing kitchens unless you have worked in a commercial bespoke kitchen workshop.
People think kitchens are easy, trust me unless you know what your doing you will make some very expensive mistakes and find it very difficult to compete with local companies that have all the kit.

Working on margins as the following, one third materials, one third labour and one third profit................... do you think you can make your existing wage or more.

I personally would never have left paid employment unless I was confident that in the long term I would be earning substantially more on my own. People talk a good game about the freedom of self employment, being your own boss etc............ it's pinapples, being the boss is very stressful, can be exceptional long hours, dealing with awkward clients "who are your boss", don't do it on a whim, know your figures, market and where you are going to get your business from. Don't listen to some of the BS spouted here ........... it's not their houses on the line, it's yours!!!!!!


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Dec 2017)

Stop trying to knobble the competition Bob! You're in the South East, Mike's in the North West; he's not going to be travelling that far looking for kitchen work - you're quite safe!


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## Flynnwood (6 Dec 2017)

doctor Bob":2ug47acf said:


> Don't listen to some of the BS spouted here ........... it's not their houses on the line, it's yours!!!!!!



You may be miffed in your job, but it is paying the bills?

Most of the 20 something year olds I know don't have a clue about 2008/2009 and the effects thereof.

I'm not saying "don't have a dream". However ....

What would happen if your self employed income was £7K pa?

Anyone around here over 50 (skilled or not) is unlikely to become PAYE again. 

You can always bring to the workplace some fun and have a laugh with those you interact with, to make the job and days and life more enjoyable


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## woodbrains (6 Dec 2017)

Hello,

Dr Bob, noted; I wasn't fixated on doing kitchens, it was just a preliminary thought. I have done some before, but more along the lines of sideboard/dresser in a more modern style, along with dining tables, benches, larder cupboards etc. When I say freestanding it could be fitted, or semi fitted, I'm not intractable on what exactly. But I wouldn't be using industry standard stuff; no MFC, no cup hinges, no drawer slides. I don't want to compete with the businesses already doing these things well enough. I was thinking difference. What do you think I should do that is better?

Flynnwood, my job doesn't really pay the bills, too much detail probably, but I gross 15K and I had to negotiate hard for that; it is the ceiling and will not improve. So while it is not truly diabolical, I have a house that is in a low rent area, I'd rather not bring my daughter up here. The hobby workshop I have is 1/2 hour drive and a tunnel toll away, in my mum's back garden, as there is no room for one where I live. Not convenient for after work puttering, so weekends only really and that is often done under duress as I should spend more time with my little girl and missus. 

Having a laugh at work! The D and T department is small, all women (apart from me before anyone comments!) and I regularly only work with one of those. My main contact is with school children; not a lot of workshop banter allowed! It should be a rewarding job, but it isn't; sh#+house high is actually quite stressful. Don't get me wrong, some of the students are lovely and I always go the extra mile for them, and there is reward in itself there, but the vast majority are vacuous, moronic, lazy, belligerent and rude. Most kids that are on the DandT course are there because no one else wants them on theirs. I shouldn't admit this, but at the moment I am making almost all of the GCSE projects, they simply will not get done if I don't. And if we don't get the results....But this is hardly stretching my grey matter or skills. I don't think I can do this for another 18 years until I retire. 

Mike.


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## MikeG. (6 Dec 2017)

custard":3kga3gsw said:


> ........I hesitate to give advice, as I said before I haven't once hit my financial targets across a full year as a custom furniture maker. All I can do is share those things that have worked reasonably well..........



Great post, Custard.


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## Flynnwood (6 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":wkxd1yke said:


> I don't think I can do this for another 18 years until I retire.
> 
> Mike.



PM sent to you Mike, as a suggestion (hammer)


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## doctor Bob (6 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":19l07r32 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Dr Bob, noted; I wasn't fixated on doing kitchens, it was just a preliminary thought. I have done some before, but more along the lines of sideboard/dresser in a more modern style, along with dining tables, benches, larder cupboards etc. When I say freestanding it could be fitted, or semi fitted, I'm not intractable on what exactly. But I wouldn't be using industry standard stuff; no MFC, no cup hinges, no drawer slides. I don't want to compete with the businesses already doing these things well enough. I was thinking difference. What do you think I should do that is better?



$64000 question ..................... the truth is I have no idea.
When my business partner and me started we invested £18000 into the business and went for it. We got lucky I suppose. 
In truth my advice would be to talk to business owners. Speed and confidence is everything. 
I know a lot of professional woodworkers, some are committed to artisan furniture making, they are all skint and usually have no work, they all have pieces of furniture in their workshops which they made years ago in the hope of selling and never found a buyer .......... only make commissioned work! Any type of work is better than no work.


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## dzj (7 Dec 2017)

Perhaps a year or 2 working for a joinery and/or cabinet making shop, before you start on your own.
A fact-finding mission of sorts.


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## Chris152 (7 Dec 2017)

Mike

One way I found of coping with a long-term job/ career that I wasn't finding as fulfilling as I wanted was to create for myself a 2-year plan. In the end I didn't need it as other things changed, but immediately I had the plan, things started to feel better in work. The plan was to stick at the job for 2 years in the course of which I was starting to try things out/ explore markets/ do work on the side. That's advice others have given, but the time limit's a good thing - it means your creative skills/ sense of self/ whatever have another outlet or place to be grounded, you have a clear goal and time limit to endure something that's making you unhappy, but you still get to pay the bills while you do so. Just a thought.

C


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## Peter Sefton (7 Dec 2017)

There is a real shortage of good makers out there in furniture and joinery, you should be able to walk into a good job. Self employment is so much harder than employed people think and not for everyone.

Cheers 

Peter


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## Beau (7 Dec 2017)

Peter Sefton":k0x6za33 said:


> There is a real shortage of good makers out there in furniture and joinery, you should be able to walk into a good job. Self employment is so much harder than employed people think and not for everyone.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


As a self employed worker it doesn't hurt to see what work is available. As said above there is massive shortage of skilled workers (at least around here) so go see what there is. Just knowing there is a fall back is a great confidence boost if taking the self employed rout.

It's not all bad being self employed either. If you enjoy your work shows and trips away are break not a chore. Also heard it's easy to barter skills in the self employed world. For me the killer would be employing others. I see lots of happy but poor one man bands but employing others is another world of stress and chasing jobs from what I can see.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2017)

Chris152":3fjeq4gs said:


> Mike
> 
> One way I found of coping with a long-term job/ career that I wasn't finding as fulfilling as I wanted was to create for myself a 2-year plan. In the end I didn't need it as other things changed, but immediately I had the plan, things started to feel better in work. The plan was to stick at the job for 2 years in the course of which I was starting to try things out/ explore markets/ do work on the side. That's advice others have given, but the time limit's a good thing - it means your creative skills/ sense of self/ whatever have another outlet or place to be grounded, you have a clear goal and time limit to endure something that's making you unhappy, but you still get to pay the bills while you do so. Just a thought.
> 
> C


That's it - just get started but don't give up the day job. You have the skills, the kit, the shed, and an income. Presumably you don't need to borrow money. 
Many people try to get going with non of these advantages! 
You couldn't be in a better position (though having large unearned income would help of course).
Start making stuff and trying to sell it.

PS trip down memory lane but thats how I started. I had a job we had one child and we started making toys (both into crafts). Sold a few. Then a few more. Eventually the day came when I realised I couldn't afford to keep the job (and the career prospects :roll: ) it was holding us back. Never had a job since! Never earned a fortune either but survived OK.


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## [email protected] (7 Dec 2017)

I think I saw a previous post regarding specialising. A mistake lots of businesses make IMO is appealing to too wider an audience offerring a to wide a spread of services and what can be effective is choose an area of your work which 1) you want to do 2) is more profitable, then focus on advertising that. 

For example if you are a cabinet maker and need work and money in fast then don't advertise yourself as a cabinet maker looking at doing kitchens, fitted bedrooms, furniture and everything else, pick the work area you want to do and push that (other work will follow by association) 

Again as an example (but this may not be a good one) if you live in an area (typically a city) where there are lots of period properties then advertise specifically to do chimney alcove shelving or fitting (most city props have chimneys) . This advertising focuses peoples attention and gets them thinking about having some shelving done when if the ad was generic it might not cross their mind 1) that they could even have shelving in their alcoves 2) they didnt know who would be able to do it anyway.

A bit like the car repair garage who sticks an A sign outside the premises advertising "car repairs" v the garage who has a sign advertising "cam belt replacements" and other repairs. Thus they are headlining their preferred work meaning they will automatically get more work of that nature. Also they get known for cam belt replacements the place to go so some extra impact there. Plus if they can do cambelts "they must know what they're doing" so they'll be able to do my steering rack etc type of thing.

Heres a real life example so my bruv was a chippie in Plymouth, he was starting from scratch again and needed work. He said he was designing some flyers and would I look at them so i said yes. He emails me a draft which is the usual stuff ie name of his business is big writing at top of flyer and a list of bullet points for generic work he is after - a typical trade flyer and nothing wrong with it in most peoples eyes But I told him to alter the layout, put his business name at the bottom smaller and headline the flyer with something like " specialising in woodwork repairs to period properties in Plymouth" Guess what thats the enquiries he got and he got complimented on his flyers. So thats an example of focussing peoples minds on something thats dear to THEM.

sorry bit a of an early morning ramble there :roll:


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Dec 2017)

Mike , I have no advice at all, but I'm sure I can speak for many others who are trapped into unfulfilling, unproductive jobs by mortgages, children, debts and so on and wish you the best of luck with whatever route you take.


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## RobinBHM (7 Dec 2017)

In my experience, fitted furniture of 1 kind or another has a good market. By its very nature, it has to be purpose made.

I know it doesnt have the highest level of furniture making skills perhaps, as it involves a lot of sheet material and not much solid.

However it still requires a good level of creativity, and an amount of working with solid timber.

You dont have to get into kitchens, it could be alcove shelving or cupboards. Under stair cupboards etc -specialise in a few. 

I would avoid the idea of making for retail sales or making batches. As Bob says, make for commission only as a sale is better than a hope!


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## gmgmgm (7 Dec 2017)

OP, I'm not remotely qualified to post on this thread, but it sounds as though you enjoy the teaching- maybe consider a different school? Part-time at a different (even private) school might also give access to a useful customer base.


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## woodbrains (7 Dec 2017)

Hello,

Many thanks for the advice so far, everyone has something useful to say, and I will consider everything you have suggested.

I agree that speculative stuff is hard to sell and fitted stuff always has a market. And I think it is sensible to keep some form of salaried job to keep the wolf from the door. I can't initially do fitted/alcove stuff from my shed, however, there simply isn't the space. I will have to make small items, perhaps occasional tables, boxes, small cupboards and the like. I could always find premises if I ever get a big enough built in commission, if and when one turns up. Then I'd really have to follow up with more work pretty quickly!

I did have a 2 year plan of sorts, as suggested above. The reason I moved to the school I'm in now in Sept 2016 was to start making stuff with a view to become a maker again. The school is brand new and has some decent kit, so I thought I could crank some stuff out when I was there, I also only worked 4 days, so I had an extra day to make things too. Actually using the extra day never quite worked out as productive as it should (small child seemed to get ill or other situation cropped up and it was always my day off that went west) and now I'm working the full 5 days again. It was my fault actually going into school on the day off, thinking i could get stuff done; but always ended up being asked to fix a hole some kid kicked in a wall or such. I might see if I can go part time and never use the school facilities and be firm that I'm not going to lose any of my workshop days. 

It looks like I'll have to brave up to making a promo video, it seems the modern way!

Oh, gmgmgm the whole reason I started work in schools in the first place was because I wanted to teach kids. But the training that used to be available to train to teach was pulled so I ended up as technician. It wasn't my best move. I did do a bit of teaching in the Grammar school I was at where the kids were fabulous. But grammar schools will never employ an unqualified teacher, it simply would not do. This school will allow non qualified teachers, and I have a small time table this year, but it is more like a fire fight than teaching! There is talk of teacher training on the job, like an apprenticeship, sometime in the future. Do I wait, the cogs turn slowly and time isn't on my side? A few more years and I'll have no valuable working life left after I did the apprenticeship, I'd be pushing 60. I just missed a tech job last month in a private school, didn't find out about it till just after the deadline, bah. They don't come up often.

Thanks everyone.

Mike.


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## MikeG. (7 Dec 2017)

Grammar schools won't, but private schools certainly do employ non-qualified teachers.


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## Mr T (8 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":2drayx4m said:


> I think I saw a previous post regarding specialising. A mistake lots of businesses make IMO is appealing to too wider an audience offerring a to wide a spread of services and what can be effective is choose an area of your work which 1) you want to do 2) is more profitable, then focus on advertising that.
> 
> For example if you are a cabinet maker and need work and money in fast then don't advertise yourself as a cabinet maker looking at doing kitchens, fitted bedrooms, furniture and everything else, pick the work area you want to do and push that (other work will follow by association)
> 
> ...



Anyone remeber Brad Naylor, he built quite a business specialising in alcove furniture.

If you look for emplyment you could try Silver Lining, they are within commuting distance (Wrexham) and may be looking for skilled people, depends if you can handle working for bent Russian Oligarchs and Saudi Princes (although some of them may have other things on their minds at present  )

Chris


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## Jacob (8 Dec 2017)

Talking of advertising - my one and only small ad in a local paper I got someone to do in neat handwriting (i.e. not like mine). Exactly as MrT said above - it started; "Sash Windows, Panel doors and all period joinery" and went on with my details at the bottom. It was a hit and highly visible thanks to being so different from the printers' jobs on the page. People actually cut it out and saved it - came back a year later etc.

Another point - instead of thinking in terms of "Starting again" (difficult) think rather of "doing a bit on the side" (easy - start today, no excuses, what are you waiting for?!!).


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

Hello,

I do agree that alcove furniture is a seller. I would have to commit to premises to do it though, as doing stuff on the side in the shed is limited by space. I have no problem in principle with the idea of doing alcove stuff though. I did a fair amount of it when I had my workshop before, but I'll need to get clients further afield from where I am, the budgets of those I did before made it a poor return. 

Any ideas on small scale stuff that I could do on the side until I gained some momentum and could commit to premises? I do have some nice alcove stuff I made in my home to photograph for an online portfolio, so at least I could advertise doing this sort of work, although not actually be doing it currently. I did do a built in 'on the side' last summer, but it had to be done in my back yard; I lucked out on the weather then, but it is not something a can reliably do at the minute.

I did interview with Silver Lining about 10 years ago and completely blew it. I completely corpsed and did my practical interview just went wrong. My nerves just got the better of me I suppose I'm not a good interviewee. But it did strike me as a place I wouldn't like to work TBH, like I have a lot of options eh? :roll: I guess I'd not get another chance, but I'll keep my eyes open. There is a small maker in Chester, who I have approached just recently, They have just appointed someone, but these things are transient, something may well come up again.

Mike.


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## MikeG. (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":376yeyuo said:


> ...... My shed is 5 by 6 metres, which may sound big to a hobbyist, but get a Planer, thicknesser, tablesaw, bandsaw and bench in there and the space to store timber and actually construct furniture is vanishingly small......



My workshop is also 30 sq m, and I know that I could comfortably make alcove units in there. I comfortably made a kitchen in there a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure I could run a small joinery business from it. I wonder if you might start by having a look at how this is set up and whether you could consolidate some of your machinery (as I said previously, get a combined planer thicknesser in place of 2 separate machines). Maybe swap to a smaller table saw. Could you construct a small overhang on one side of the shed for timber storage? Why have I got the space but you haven't, with the same floor area?


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## Jacob (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":2dd2zhni said:


> .........
> 
> Any ideas on small scale stuff that I could do on the side until I gained some momentum and could commit to premises? ......


Boxes? Small cabinets, bits of furniture - side tables? 
Wassa problem - just flip through a few web pages and see what others are selling - there isn't a magic formula - just do the obvious.
Small space means you could aim for higher added value; jewellery boxes?

You don't need to "commit" to premises you could to wait until it becomes essential, if ever.

My last workshop was about 20ft square - not big but managed to do sizeable jobs. Excuses, excuses, what are you waiting for? :roll:


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## MikeG. (8 Dec 2017)

I made a decent living in the winters many moons ago making Welsh Dressers. Antique pine was all the rage then (yeah, I know)......... I made one and advertised it in the local papers Classified Ads section. I just kept running the ad, and taking orders for more. That was out of a shed 3m by 5m. I don't think space is the issue here.


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## pcb1962 (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":1idmoeos said:


> I can't initially do fitted/alcove stuff from my shed, however, there simply isn't the space.



I expect you're already aware of them, but if not then Peter Millard's videos are full of ideas on how to make some fairly big stuff in a very small workshop.


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":4i7vdydg said:


> woodbrains":4i7vdydg said:
> 
> 
> > ...... My shed is 5 by 6 metres, which may sound big to a hobbyist, but get a Planer, thicknesser, tablesaw, bandsaw and bench in there and the space to store timber and actually construct furniture is vanishingly small......
> ...



Hello,

How high though! Internally 30 sq m is more like 25, building regs measure footprint not floor space and internal ridge height is perhaps 7 ft 6, but roof joists interfere and max is perhaps 6 ft 6 trailing off. My bandsaw stands in the centre line of the shed and grazes the middle joist. It is what I have. I did put my dust extraction in a lean to to gain a little space. I amassed the machinery when I was self employed and did without for a long time, to buy the stuff as I worked along. Now I have it, i'd quite like to keep it, selling reasonable stuff for hobby sized stuff is counter-intuitive if I ever do start professionally in earnest. I take your point about a combined planer/thicknesser, but it will still take up the same space as the planer and the thicknesser I have is on wheels, the gain would be mariginal. 

Jacob, I'm not making excuses, I did mention boxes, occasional tables and other small stuff in previous posts, I just thought I ask if there was something I was missing that is a seller to give me a fighting chance. Also, advertising as a specialist in alcove furniture to start with might be a dead end if I don't have the space to actually do it. So whilst I understand the advice of not being too diverse in what I advertise in doing, specialising in alcove furniture is probably daft. I will have to move into that if things become viable. I'm actually doing jewellery boxes at the mo. How do I make the transition from jewellery boxes to alcove furniture?

Mike.


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

pcb1962":1fe0kxxm said:


> woodbrains":1fe0kxxm said:
> 
> 
> > I can't initially do fitted/alcove stuff from my shed, however, there simply isn't the space.
> ...



Hello,

I'm not familiar with the videos, thanks, I'll look them up.

Mike.


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## MikeG. (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":pg6v2y6i said:


> .....How high though! Internally 30 sq m is more like 25, building regs measure footprint not floor space and internal ridge height is perhaps 7 ft 6, but roof joists interfere and max is perhaps 6 ft 6 trailing off. My bandsaw stands in the centre line of the shed and grazes the middle joist. It is what I have. I did put my dust extraction in a lean to to gain a little space. I amassed the machinery when I was self employed and did without for a long time, to buy the stuff as I worked along. Now I have it, i'd quite like to keep it, selling reasonable stuff for hobby sized stuff is counter-intuitive if I ever do start professionally in earnest. I take your point about a combined planer/thicknesser, but it will still take up the same space as the planer and the thicknesser I have is on wheels, the gain would be mariginal........



 I'm an architect.

Your walls would have to be 250mm thick to reduce your floor area to 25 sq m, and building regs measure internal floor area, not footprint.


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## Jacob (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":12406lqd said:


> ..... How do I make the transition from jewellery boxes to alcove furniture?
> 
> Mike.


If you are selling jewellery boxes why make the transition? Why not transit to something along the same lines? Concentrate on what you can do , not worry about what you can't do?


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## kevinlightfoot (8 Dec 2017)

AsI see it you are after the holy grail,as makers we all have the same problem,whether it be to make a living or not.We need people to feed with our products,even people who give their work away to friends soon run out of things to build or make.Most if they are honest don't make a living purely from making,they have support financially from elsewhere.What you are looking for is an idea to make a good living from a utopian existence where you can just make for customers who are lining up to buy your product.Sorry but it is a pipe dream,if you want that woodworking is the wrong way to go.In the early 80s I did a lot of work for large companies of whom I was envious.The bosses of these companies always told me to stay small,keep working out of my little workshop,they were right,one by one these large firms went under,having to more or less buy in work to keep their money hungry businesses afloat.Stay in your day job,make a bob or two on the side and you will enjoy it more than having to chase every penny just to get by.Believe me I know what schools are like I ended up as a teacher,took an early retirement and now enjoy my pension ,you won't be able to do that if you give up the day job.


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## Buckeye (8 Dec 2017)

I compressed/reduced my hours to take a day a week off from my office job (boring job that pays the bills well) to spend a day a week and a Saturday working with a builder friend doing general carpentry jobs for him and working in my own workshop and other more interesting jobs on the days he doesn't need me. This has worked well apart from the fact that the builder friend has needed me nearly all the time so I haven't got working on my own stuff as much as I would have liked however that day of the week is still by far my favourite.

I suppose I am getting at maybe you don't have to quite the day job completely, see if reduced/compressed hours are available?


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":y1f5bjfu said:


> woodbrains":y1f5bjfu said:
> 
> 
> > .....How high though! Internally 30 sq m is more like 25, building regs measure footprint not floor space and internal ridge height is perhaps 7 ft 6, but roof joists interfere and max is perhaps 6 ft 6 trailing off. My bandsaw stands in the centre line of the shed and grazes the middle joist. It is what I have. I did put my dust extraction in a lean to to gain a little space. I amassed the machinery when I was self employed and did without for a long time, to buy the stuff as I worked along. Now I have it, i'd quite like to keep it, selling reasonable stuff for hobby sized stuff is counter-intuitive if I ever do start professionally in earnest. I take your point about a combined planer/thicknesser, but it will still take up the same space as the planer and the thicknesser I have is on wheels, the gain would be mariginal........
> ...



Hello,

I know you are being helpful and your advice is much appreciated, but I just might know how big me shed is! 
Go on, think about a shed construction that has a footprint of 6 by 5 m but has a 25 sq m internal floor area. Dung wall (log) cabin?? :| In fact the max size shed without planning permission is the one I have, and it is measured to the widest point of the building, which is the roof eaves, so even less floor area. I am actually breaching that by adding the lean to for the dust extractor, shh! Don't tell the neighbours.

This is the cause of my quandary, logic and much wisdom here suggests not to make speculative pieces, but make to commission. Yet the small scale work I will have to stick to will be most likely speculative. I think Jacob is right, I'll just have to make stuff and try to flog it, trying to get commissions along the way, off the back of the speculative stuff. But this is how I failed last time, excepting that I probably didn't market myself as well as I should. This is obviously the area I need to improve.

Kevinlightfoot, I am thinking of negotiating part time so I can get a day or so extra in the shed. But early retirement, or retirement at all is unlikely. A teacher's pension I will not have!

Mike.


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## Jacob (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":1iktjgq8 said:


> .... I'll just have to make stuff and try to flog it, trying to get commissions along the way, off the back of the speculative stuff. But this is how I failed last time, excepting that I probably didn't market myself as well as I should. This is obviously the area I need to improve....


"Making stuff and flogging it" is how almost everything is supplied in the real world. Hardly anything is bespoke. How many things do you "commission" yourself? Me - I can't say I've ever done it in my life!
Off the shelf you don't have to market _yourself_ you market the the things on the shelf - much easier as a rule!
You personally might be utterly unmarketable - no prob as long as you keep out of sight!
The bespoke "commission" idea seems to be the curse of aspiring woodworkers. Most other arts and crafts don't do it at all except for the occasional very special request.


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

Jacob":rws6bzd5 said:


> woodbrains":rws6bzd5 said:
> 
> 
> > .... I'll just have to make stuff and try to flog it, trying to get commissions along the way, off the back of the speculative stuff. But this is how I failed last time, excepting that I probably didn't market myself as well as I should. This is obviously the area I need to improve....
> ...



Hello,

I'm surprised you think this, I'm sure the windows me staircases etc. you made were all bespoke! But point taken, I'll have to do what I have to do. I'm going to make an occasional table this weekend and see if that will sell.

Mike.


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## Jacob (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":3szoozv5 said:


> Jacob":3szoozv5 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":3szoozv5 said:
> ...


Well yes some things unavoidably have to be fitted but that's not what we are talking about.

NB your table won't sell itself - you have to go through all the motions and try everything. If unavoidable sell it and make a loss or give it to your mother in law. It's all part of the learning curve. :lol:

PS don't make one table make 3 or 4. Economy of scale kicks in very quickly and you do have to take a little risk!


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## thetyreman (8 Dec 2017)

call me oldschool if you like, but going to craft fairs and events is a good idea, especailly if you can get into places like bramhall, chester, poynton, even parts of wirral, if you are there in person with items ready to sell, I think that's the way forward, the internet is only good if you make a serious investment into a well made website, marketing and sales e.t.c, even then stuff isn't guaranteed to get traction or sell.


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## MikeG. (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":2f7du65m said:


> ........I know you are being helpful and your advice is much appreciated, but I just might know how big me shed is!
> Go on, think about a shed construction that has a footprint of 6 by 5 m but has a 25 sq m internal floor area. Dung wall (log) cabin?? :| In fact the max size shed without *planning permission*....



I was responding to you saying that Building Regs is based on your building's footprint. It isn't. Now you are saying Planning Permission, which is a very different thing.

Either way, the general point stands......that's plenty enough space to be earning some money making furniture.


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

Jacob":1hozlqas said:


> PS don't make one table make 3 or 4. Economy of scale kicks in very quickly and you do have to take a little risk!



Hello,
I would if I had enough wood! I'll make one for now, if it ends up being satisfactory in terms of design and reasonable manufacture, I'll make 4. 

Tyreman, as soon as I get enough stuff together, I will do some shows. I have done a few before. They don't always get immediate work, it is often a long game, reinforced by a good website and so forth. I will do some as soon as I can.

Mike.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Dec 2017)

If you did tables you could do book matched natural edged tops - someone might like the pair, if not much (if not all) of the joinery would be the same from the point of view of time saving anyway.


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

phil.p":25gld9fc said:


> If you did tables you could do book matched natural edged tops - someone might like the pair, if not much (if not all) of the joinery would be the same from the point of view of time saving anyway.



Hello,

I've no live edged stuff in at the moment, just some 2 square edge ABW. All 1 inch thick boards. I did some designs for console tables using 1 inch thick boards some time ago; it was an experiment that I tried to see if I could design something with the limitation of not having thicker stock for the legs. I think they worked out well, I still have one table in oak made this way. I think the design will scale down well enough to a coffee table size. I was actually thinking it would work with a live edged top at some point too. I actually have never made any live edged stuff before, in truth, I don't like it. But that won't prevent me from designing such if it will sell; I have designed stuff I didn't like before, but the client loved it, so happy days!

Mike.


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## Jacob (8 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":31ds4pgr said:


> phil.p":31ds4pgr said:
> 
> 
> > If you did tables you could do book matched natural edged tops - someone might like the pair, if not much (if not all) of the joinery would be the same from the point of view of time saving anyway.
> ...


Useful tip #1001. 
Don't design anything. Always copy something good. Buying one to copy is the easiest way. Nobody gives f#ck about your design ability they just want a nice wotsit.
Worst option of all is designing something you don't like yourself. If anybody else doesn't like it you get the blame.
If people want you to do stuff you don't like tell them to f off, you really don't need customers like that.


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## woodbrains (8 Dec 2017)

Jacob":rvkxryen said:


> woodbrains":rvkxryen said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":rvkxryen said:
> ...



Hello,

You'll have to suggest an existing design for a table that only uses one inch thick boards, then, otherwise I can't make one. I can't think of a classic design that is made like this myself. You've pretty much buggered my weekend, unless you find one for me, or let me design my own.
Mike.


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":1o41lr3g said:


> Jacob":1o41lr3g said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":1o41lr3g said:
> ...


Problems, problems!!
There's that Chris Schwarz classic "shaker" table design kicking around the net. I've made and sold a few of these myself. 1" boards would do it - or an even more delicate version. But some 1 1/2 inch stuff for the legs would make it easier. Go and buy some wood?

PS here it is https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-c ... 4-Seg2.pdf
It's a very nice table. Refinements are possible such as tapering the top edge thinner. They sell - people like them.


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## petermillard (9 Dec 2017)

Woodbrains

You do seem to be concentrating/fixating on what you can’t do, rather than what you can. My workshop is only slightly larger than yours, and half is given over to storage, so the actual workspace is likely smaller. Ceiling height is less than 8’ - unfortunately...

And yet I run my business from there; it’s a classic one-man-band small business, turning around all the usual fitted furniture of alcove units, bookcases, wardrobes, tv units, cabinets, wine racks, shelving, window seats etc.. etc.. 

At times it’s absurdly small, but I figure it out. Right now I have a run of three double cabinets with bookshelves above (alcove units essentially, but in a run) as well as a pair of double cabinets on the go. I’ll have to fabricate it, flat-pack it and assemble / fit onsite (no pressure then...) but it’s do-able, even from such a small space. Not easy, but do-able.

Thing is, you seem to have done this kind of work before; so what went wrong? Why did you stop? And is banging out e.g. MDF boxes going to end up as the equivalent of your current job - something you ultimately dislike, and just end up doing for the money?

On a purely personal level, I’d say that if you’re short of time, space and funds, then investing all three in making things to sell speculatively sounds like madness, unless you can actively sell through an established channel e.g. commission sales at a retailer, craft fairs, etsy/‘not on the high street’ type of online shop.

Whatever you do, I hope it works out for you, just remember that you need to be businesslike about it.

If you’re interested in the kind of work I do from a small space there’s a general link to my YouTube channel in my sig, and the workshop tour video is here.

HTH & good luck.


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## vankou (9 Dec 2017)

Hi Mike

Although a frequent visitor to this site, I rarely feel that I have much to contribute but having worked in Schools (through Caretaking to Premises Management ) for 28 years I do have an understanding of how they work.

I can only say what I would explore if I were in your position. It may be something that you have already thought about or it just might not appeal to you.

Schools normally (yours may be different, particularly if it was built with PFI funding) let/hire rooms out to local groups and clubs. In your position I would be exploring the possibility of hiring the DT workshop a couple of evenings a week and on a Saturday and running a type of Men’s shed where interested individuals from the community can then pay you for the use of a workbench space and access to some tools. You could then offer alongside this one to one tuition for interested parties and perhaps offer machining of timber etc at a moderate cost.Following this through , once you have an interested group or membership you could offer one off seminar days where particular techniques are demonstrated perhaps inviting different Craftsmen to demonstrate all at extra cost to the members. If you can get to the point where renting out bench space pays for the room hire you are then free to spend your time working on your own projects.

Schools are generally receptive to enterprising projects and this would fall in nicely with the concept of life long learning. Who knows if you can attract interest from the Parents of Students already attending the School you may just find that the interest rubs off on to the Students.

I know that if I had to work day in day out from a 25 Metre square shed no matter how much I enjoyed the work or how much I was turning over I would be pulling what little hair I have left out by the end of the first year. If nothing else at least the Local Government Pension Scheme will give you something when you retire.

Any way I hope that this offer an alternative point of view

Cheers


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

petermillard":uis2wv65 said:


> Woodbrains
> 
> You do seem to be concentrating/fixating on what you can’t do, rather than what you can. My workshop is only slightly larger than yours, and half is given over to storage, so the actual workspace is likely smaller. Ceiling height is less than 8’ - unfortunately...
> 
> ...



Hello,

Thanks for the input, Peter. It is funny, but the written word here often doesn't convey the real feeling behind them, and it might seem that I'm being overly negative when a few consecutive posts answer others questions with 'I can't', but I'm only trying to be realistic. I know my space, and partly the fact I probably have a few too many machines, it will be difficult to make alcove furniture. I accept the suggestion from others that it is a good seller and obviously I am considering all good suggestions. But realistically I know that trying to make 'efficiently' in my space a pair of alcove units for a Georgian house, 8 ft 6 high 3 ft wide and 2 ft deep (a similar job to ones I've done before) is not going to happen. I could make it flat pack to assemble on site. So could Todhunter Davis or Benchmarx et al with their Altendorf panel saws and edgebanders and CNC thingamybobs all within 5 miles of where I am, in one tenth of the time. I need a USP, which is not making the industry standard in an inefficient factory. You are right, making MDF boxes isn't something I'm going to be happy with, if this is all it will be, and I'll not give up an unhappy job without risk, for an unhappy one with risk, I'm not daft. 

If I get enough work to sustain a bigger workshop, then obviously built in stuff is something I will do, I did before. What I need is to make this transition, or perhaps not, and continuing to make small scale stuff. But like you pointed out, and I mentioned previously, this sound like making speculatively and trying to sell, which we all know is potential suicide! 

And as far as Jacob goes, in amongst the banter, there is some useful advice. He knows I can't make an existing style of side table without thicker stock for legs, unless I design something new. Even if the wood yard was open Saturday, and I bought some timber I'm still not going to make anything until after Christmas and I have dry, acclimatised wood now. I thought I was being positive y not letting only one thickness of board stop me this weekend, although Jacob has somehow turned this into me making excuses.

Mike.


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

vankou":ic5nbnh2 said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> Although a frequent visitor to this site, I rarely feel that I have much to contribute but having worked in Schools (through Caretaking to Premises Management ) for 28 years I do have an understanding of how they work.
> 
> ...



Hello,

Thanks Vankou, I have thought of renting the rooms, in fact I did consider it in my last school too. Then the HOD got me to remove all the planing stops and re top all the benches with phenolic laminates so they could no longer be used for proper woodwork! The new school I'm in is, in fact, PFI and as you say, probably not going to happen here. Sorry, I'm sounding negative again! :roll: 

Mike.


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## custard (9 Dec 2017)

Jacob":220tnv4u said:


> There's that Chris Schwarz classic "shaker" table design kicking around the net. I've made and sold a few of these myself. 1" boards would do it - or an even more delicate version. But some 1 1/2 inch stuff for the legs would make it easier. Go and buy some wood?
> 
> PS here it is https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-c ... 4-Seg2.pdf
> It's a very nice table. Refinements are possible such as tapering the top edge thinner. They sell - people like them.



This is the Shaker Side Table that I make.







I'd starve to death if I relied on these! By burning the midnight oil I can _just_ produce a pair of these in a week (okay, I make the drawers to a much higher standard than the ones in the Chris Schwarz plans so that adds some time, but would you be happy selling something with a plywood drawer box or crepe Schwarz style dovetails?). To hit my financial targets (£1000 gross contribution per week) I have to sell a pair of these for £1200, or £1300-1350 if they're in special timbers like Curly Cherry or Fiddleback Maple. In five years I've only sold about six of these. Incidentally, the majority I do sell _are_ in spectacular timbers at the higher price.

Maybe you're a lot faster at making than I am, but this piece neatly illustrates the dilemma for the independent maker. Do you have ready access to the clients who will pay £600-700 for a side table like this? And if you don't and want to price it lower then exactly how fast can you make them?

Perhaps Jacob might pause in his enthusiastic advocacy for self employed furniture making, and share with us exactly how many Shaker Side Tables he sold, where he sold them, how long it took to make them, and how much he got?

One last point, trying to get the legs for these out of 1" stock is a non starter, you need 1 1/4" minimum.


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## Bodgers (9 Dec 2017)

Woodbrains, I am not qualified to give you any advice on here at all, but I couldn't help but notice you are getting 15k gross and that you had to negotiate that. Is that full time?

Full time minimum wage at 38 hours a week is 14.8k a year gross. 

Personally, I'd say you don't have a great deal to lose if you had to negotiate yourself £200 a year on top of minimum wage.

Whatever you decide to do, If it goes belly up you would have no issue getting back to that level of income IMO.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

Bodgers":1uv8zb8m said:


> Woodbrains, I am not qualified to give you any advice on here at all, but I couldn't help but notice you are getting 15k gross and that you had to negotiate that. Is that full time?
> 
> Full time minimum wage at 38 hours a week is 14.8k a year gross.
> 
> ...



Hello,

Wow, nothing gets by the posters here. Think school holidays, for which I do not get paid. So, while the school holidays are extra time to spend in the shed, which is a good thing, my pro rata salary is something else. Also, local authority hours has been harmonised to 36 1/2 a week I think. So that makes a difference annually. 

Custard, I have made similar tables as you illustrate and I concur that the hours spent making and the finished sale price were virtually identical. I suspect many makers of similarly high standards achieve startlingly similar outcomes. What is certain, only reducing quality would get those tables made with any meaningful saving of time, but not enough to reduce the selling price to make them easier to sell, with the customers acceptance of the reduction in quality, if that makes sense. The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.

Mike.


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## custard (9 Dec 2017)

Staying with practical examples. I wanted to offer something that was more unique and distinctive than the previous Shaker Side Table, but was still relatively quick to make and could sell for below £1,000. I found another Shaker design called the "Harvard Table", here's my version,







By getting jigged up to the eyeballs I tried to get the build time down to 20 hours. I've never quite got there, and it takes me about 25-27 hours to make one. Like the previous side table I can kid myself that it's possible to make two in a week, it is, but only by putting in some overtime and then conveniently ignoring it.

I sell these for £750 in highly figured timbers (and because they're more of a feature piece that's what clients generally go for). It's a profitable item. Profitable not in the sense that it puts me in Russian Oligarch territory, but profitable in that with enough orders I could _just_ keep my head above water. I've been doing these for about three years now, and I must have sold, oooh let me think, all of about seven or eight! 

It's hard Mike. You need lots and lots of good ideas, not just one, and the energy to make them happen. Even then you're sprinting just to stand still. It's no wonder that when professional makers get together the first question they always ask is "how many hours did that take?", you can see them tumbling the numbers in their heads and wondering if there was even a snowball in hell's chance of ever turning a profit.


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## custard (9 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":2p4iqibs said:


> The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.



You and I generally see eye to eye on most things, but I'm going to have to disagree on this one. 

The main attraction _for the maker_ is exceptional quality, that's where the satisfaction comes from. But for the client exceptional quality falls some way down the list, I'm convinced of this because I have to point out the evidence of quality to clients all the time, they rarely if ever identify it for themselves.

Higher up the list, in my experience at least, comes things they simply can't get in a high street shop. Things like made to measure sizing, waney edged and slab top construction, unique timbers, innovative finishes, control over styling and design details, etc.


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

custard":3baa2jl2 said:


> woodbrains":3baa2jl2 said:
> 
> 
> > The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.
> ...



Hello,

I think we still agree, I didn't say quality was the only thing that gives hand made stuff a purpose, all those other things you mention are there too. But a shaker table isn't unique, or necessarily made to measure, so aside fabulous timber, the quality is an important differentiator. Yes, you still have to explain to the client about the quality, they often don't know what it is or how to see it, but if it is not there, they will spot shoddy or underwhelming in a heartbeat and avoid. This is something that most people don't understand, the time consuming 'invisible' touches that no one notices, but often have to be there, because when left out their absence sticks out like a side thumb. Good design is one such thing. No one (few who are not makers, anyway) sees the good design, or aesthetic proportioning in a thing, or appreciates the time and development that went into achieving it. But they know they dislike a bad design when they see it!

I don't know why it should be so hard to make a modest living, from the simple, primal act of making something useful and beautiful. I know cost is part of it, but there are wealthy enough people around that could, without making a significant dent in their bank balances, to buy a few pieces of hand made stuff. But there seems to be a pathological barrier to spending more than their perceived idea of what a thing is worth, and furniture has a very low worth, compared to cars, jewellery, electronics, etc. I'm always amused how a high end car manufacturer often sells their things based on solidity, longevity etc. But most owners keep the vehicles for 3 years! 

Mike.


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2017)

custard":fdcoooxh said:


> ......
> Perhaps Jacob might pause in his enthusiastic advocacy for self employed furniture making, and share with us exactly how many Shaker Side Tables he sold, where he sold them, how long it took to make them, and how much he got?
> 
> One last point, trying to get the legs for these out of 1" stock is a non starter, you need 1 1/4" minimum.


I sold about a dozen. I made them in 2 batches. £250 each. Mostly recycled mahogany type hardwood. Sold them on-line via my website. Still getting enquiries. They were slightly more elegant than the one in your picture.
This was at the start of my belated furniture making career which would have gone well except circumstances intervened and I ended up doing chapel conversion and a few other things instead. Now semi retired (73 tomorrow!)
Selling is the key thing. Whichever way Mike finally decides to go he will come up against the same problem. The solution for me was DIY website. HTML a bit of a learning curve but after that it's very cheap and highly effective


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2017)

custard":1coe8a7x said:


> ......... it takes me about 25-27 hours to make one. .....


If they sell off the shelf and not to order then make a batch, get the price right down or the profit right up. 
Think like a baker - he might make the occasional wedding cake to order but wouldn't make a loaf or a mince pie one at a time!


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## tomatwark (9 Dec 2017)

Mike

If you are going to do this you will have to take on the sh*tty jobs as well as the good ones, until you are well known enough to start to turn them down.

As has already been said for kitchens, freestanding or fitted you are up against the bigger outfits who have the kit and staff, and can turn them around.

That said there is still an place in the market for you, as some of the smaller kitchens, part refurbs where you might make something to compliment an existing kitchen are possible, as for the like of us they are quite often more trouble than they are worth.

The advantage you have over us, is although you may not have the kit to produce the stuff as quickly, you do not have the anywhere near the same overheads which have to paid for every month.

I started of in a small workshop with some very basic machinery and have grown the business over the years, I took on everything at the start from windows, doors to kitchens and freestanding and fitted furniture and dropped the things I did not want as time went on and as I got known for what I wanted to do, although there are still things I take on I would not in an ideal world but I have overheads to pay.

One thing I have found is that after about 3-4 years or so have having very little freestanding furniture orders, they are increasing again without us pushing for the work, so there is a bit of a change in customers attitudes.

I am always reviewing things and recently I am being asked by a few local tradesmen to take on work which I had dropped, the size of the orders are seriously making me look at it, the trick is don't set up to do one thing and try to make it work, as sometimes it just won't but something else will.


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## Mr T (9 Dec 2017)

The truth is that some people are not cut out for being an entrepreneur, which is what you are as a self employed maker. Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and can also talk the talk to convince others of this. Many highly skilled makers are unsuccessful because they do not fit this bill. They concentrate all their on the workshop when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making!

Good luck Mike.

Chris


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## tomatwark (9 Dec 2017)

Mr T":3lda6g2k said:


> The truth is that some people are not cut out for being an entrepreneur, which is what you are as a self employed maker. Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and can also talk the talk to convince others of this. Many highly skilled makers are unsuccessful because they do not fit this bill. They concentrate all their on the workshop when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making!
> 
> Good luck Mike.
> 
> Chris



Too true.

If I could be in the workshop most of the time I would be, but this afternoon I am sitting in the office drawing and pricing work for next year, Thursday I was on the road most of the day looking at possible work.

You need to fact this in to any overhead calculations as well, as about 25% of the time you will be wasting your time as the customer will say no, but you still need to pay the bills while you are trying to get the work.

If you get everything you price for, you either have a very unique product, or more likely you are not charging enough.


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2017)

Mr T":3h7uu7mb said:


> ...Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread.....


A successful entrepreneur can sell any old sh&t he doesn't have to believe in it himself!
Some people are more into some sort of self-righteous moralistic artist/craftsman crusade and blame the punters for not liking their utterly marvellous creations. Good luck to them!
There has to be a happy medium!


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## Sgian Dubh (9 Dec 2017)

Mr T":obkt6nfw said:


> ... when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making! Chris


Chris, I suspect you underplay your own 'putting yourself about' efforts in developing a reputation as teacher in the private sector. Let's see ... there are woodworking shows where you demonstrate, meet old students and meet potential new ones; a book you've written, woodworking magazine articles, your blog, adverts in F&C (I think) so you're definitely out there marketing yourself one way or another to support your teaching *business*.

I just wish I could offer something positive to Mike. I'm not sure that my own weird and whacky journey around professional furniture making over the decades has much useful experience to guide him. Slainte.


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## Mr T (9 Dec 2017)

Jacob":vu5j686q said:


> Mr T":vu5j686q said:
> 
> 
> > ...Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread.....
> ...



You first point may be true Jacob, mentioning entrepreneurs I was thinking of the Dysons of this world rather than just salesmen. Not sure what your second point was other than riding a hobby horse. 

I bet you have some interesting arguments when you get down the pub  

Chris


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## Harbo (9 Dec 2017)

http://www.owdman.co.uk/index.htm


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

Mr T":3nc6n2k3 said:


> The truth is that some people are not cut out for being an entrepreneur, which is what you are as a self employed maker. Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and can also talk the talk to convince others of this. Many highly skilled makers are unsuccessful because they do not fit this bill. They concentrate all their on the workshop when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making!
> 
> Good luck Mike.
> 
> Chris



Hello,

You are dead right and you are as likely talking about me not fitting the bill. I do find self promotion hard sometimes, especially person to person. To be honest, this was my failing the last time and why I couldn't make enough and had to stop. I need to try and be better at these things, I know. Does it mean people who don't blow their own trumpet have to be resigned to a crushingly unfulfilling job. If so, it is rather depressing. 

Tomahawk, I did take almost everything on when I had a workshop last time; I installed fitted kitchens, laid floors, did some house joinery and door hanging, picture framing, I made packing cases once! I thought this was part of my downfall, the diversity meant it was hard to get fully efficient at anything. I found it difficult to cost jobs too. Someone would come along with any woodwork related thing, but I had no datum for costing something I'd never done, so I was likely undercharging just to make the rent. Conventional wisdom would be to specialise in a narrow field and get efficient and streamlined to maximise costs. If it worked for you, then fine, I'll give it some more thought. 

I do think the available local market is bad here, though, so I'll have to reach futher afield. I recounted before a customer I'd done some alcove furniture for before wanting a freestanding bedroom suite. A double column 2 by 5 drawer chest, 2 bedside tables, a dressing table and chair or stool, double wardrobe and blanket chest. Budget £5000 material of choice, American Black Walnut. It wasn't that long ago and she obviously contacted me because she was happy with the alcove stuff is done before. I drew up some designs and couldn't come close to 5 K so quoted 8 which was rejected out of hand. Even using ABW veneered MDF for lots of the carcase material 8 was still low and I fear it would have been another labour of love. This customer was by no means atypical, her Georgian house was something I could only dream about owning. 

Jacob, you can't make those side tables for 250 and make any money, You would have to make them in a day from scratch to polish. No wonder you still get enquiries you are practically giving them away. The cherry alone would be 80 quid, more for figured boards and I can't make and fit a drawer with dovetails and slips in much less than a day.

Mike.


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## Bodgers (9 Dec 2017)

custard":3bgpn0ba said:


> woodbrains":3bgpn0ba said:
> 
> 
> > The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.
> ...


Agree with you here. I follow I guy on Instagram (Nick James I think?) and he sells most of his stuff through "notonthehighstreet.com" which kind of says it all.

He seems to do a wide variety of stuff from mid century credenzas to iPhone speaker/stands which he seems to be batching out atm.



Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":ryztcjey said:


> .
> Jacob, you can't make those side tables for 250 and make any money, You would have to make them in a day from scratch to polish. No wonder you still get enquiries you are practically giving them away. The cherry alone would be 80 quid, more for figured boards and I can't make and fit a drawer with dovetails and slips in much less than a day.
> 
> Mike.


You couldn't make one in a day but you could make 5 in a week. That's the difference between one offing and batches.


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## doctor Bob (9 Dec 2017)

Love these sort of comments



Jacob":32rt9eux said:


> This was at the start of my belated furniture making career which would have gone well except circumstances intervened



Translation= I made some hobby stuff and sold it for a few bob's profit, years later I think I could have been megs successful if I'd carried on, and if my aunty had bollo!s she'd be my uncle.

Never listen to anyone who has never done it, plenty talk the talk not many walk the walk.


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## cowfoot (9 Dec 2017)

I’ve made a few variations on that Shaker side table...with the latest being the most simple and taking 15hrs (plus £55’s worth of Ash). So I reckon they could turn a profit, but you’d need to find buyers.
What interests me at the moment is designing a suite of furniture using standardised sizing of components (eg legs, drawers)...then you could mill up lots of timber but not commit to using it until an order arrives.
Don’t mind me, just thinking aloud/online!


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

Jacob":y5nhtmym said:


> woodbrains":y5nhtmym said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



Hello,

So what do you do when someone asks for one? Tell them to find 4 other buyers wanting exactly the same or expect them wait till another 4 fill the order books and then charge them the batch price. Or do you charge them the batch price for a one off and make a loss. Or ask the one off price and lose the job. Or make 5 charge the batch price and have 4 left gathering dust and taking up space I don't have, for and even bigger loss.

It is easy to spout this wisdom Jacob but experience tells it different.

Mike.


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## custard (9 Dec 2017)

cowfoot":3aaxedhr said:


> the latest being the most simple and taking 15hrs (plus £55’s worth of Ash)...I reckon they could turn a profit



I wouldn't bet your house on it,

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/tabl ... de-tables/


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

cowfoot":2i9gf0lc said:


> I’ve made a few variations on that Shaker side table...with the latest being the most simple and taking 15hrs (plus £55’s worth of Ash). So I reckon they could turn a profit, but you’d need to find buyers.
> What interests me at the moment is designing a suite of furniture using standardised sizing of components (eg legs, drawers)...then you could mill up lots of timber but not commit to using it until an order arrives.
> Don’t mind me, just thinking aloud/online!



Hello,

15 hours is nearly 2 days which is still still a minimum of £400 asking price, made from a rented workshop. A bit different than Jacobs £250. I think 15 hours is a good time, too. Ash is a bit of a marmite timber, especially when is ages to that amber colour. If you can sell these, then good for you. If you can make them out of a more stunning wood, the making time would be the same, though, so why use ash, when figured maple might be double the material cost but sell for a lot more. If you can only sell things based upon the price of the raw materials being lowest, then I think it is a marginal existence.

Mike.


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## [email protected] (9 Dec 2017)

woodbrains, I take my hat off to you for this thread and the way you have kinda bared your soul. Its a risky move as it doesnt always bring comments you would ideally like!. Just a question - does your woodworking experience extend only to making or have you any experience in repairing furniture and if so do you enjoy that?


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## custard (9 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":1hpuha2e said:


> have you any experience in repairing furniture?



Apologies for jumping in on a question that wasn't addressed to me. 

I trained as a cabinet maker twice. Once in the early 80's and then again more recently. The first time around any serious cabinet making training included a large dollop of antique restoration, because it was assumed you'd either earn a living making repro furniture or as an antique restorer.

Since then the antique furniture market has absolutely crashed, and with it has gone a large part of the antique restoration trade and almost all of the repro market. Yes, truly museum quality antique pieces continue to set record auction prices, and there's still a top end restoration business to support that market. But the core middle antique furniture market has been in decline for over twenty years now, and there's no sign of any respite. When antiques are being broken up for scrap timber it's hard to make a living restoring the stuff.


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## cowfoot (9 Dec 2017)

custard":2hvcxxb1 said:


> cowfoot":2hvcxxb1 said:
> 
> 
> > the latest being the most simple and taking 15hrs (plus £55’s worth of Ash)...I reckon they could turn a profit
> ...



http://www.sebastiancox.co.uk/shop?category=Bayleaf

There’s a price somewhere between those two extremes that buyers would also be happy with.


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

cowfoot":3txv6loq said:


> custard":3txv6loq said:
> 
> 
> > cowfoot":3txv6loq said:
> ...



Hello,

there is some interesting stuff here, but I'm not sure the prices are reasonable, in the sense they are in between IKEA and high end handmade. http://www.sebastiancox.co.uk/shop/hewn-bench-hyfny

£320 for a rough ash board with a few branches stuck into it. 21st century and we are becoming less sophisticated than iron age man! 

Mike.


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## cowfoot (9 Dec 2017)

I certainly don’t think their prices are reasonable - but presumably they have a market.
One of the main points in that book I linked to many, many posts ago makes is that it’s very important to study the competition and to have a realistic idea of where you stand in relation to them. 
Of course, if we’re being brutally honest this thread could just end with Custard telling us not to bother and an IKEA link, but there are people out there making a go of it _despite_ multinational tax avoiders with a good line in particle board to go with your meatballs. 
I was in Skandium on Marylebone High Street the other day; it was full of young(ish) people with an interest in well made, fairly expensive furniture. Hope springs eternal.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Dec 2017)

I don't think for a moment that Custard is telling anyone not to bother, he's just given the thread a dose of realism.


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## woodbrains (9 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":3v51yji8 said:


> woodbrains, I take my hat off to you for this thread and the way you have kinda bared your soul. Its a risky move as it doesnt always bring comments you would ideally like!. Just a question - does your woodworking experience extend only to making or have you any experience in repairing furniture and if so do you enjoy that?



Hello,

I've done a little, but Custard's answer, welcome by the way, pretty much sums it up. There is a nice fellow with an antique shop just along the road from me. When I say antique I mean real antique, not one of the multitude of bric a brac shops that open up everywhere these days, but not chalk stripe suited proprietor either. I did a small amount there but even he admitted the market was so poor, if he hadn't bought the shop decades ago and have no overheads, he couldn't make any money. 

There is some interesting stuff done by repurposing stuff rather than restoring. But then there is a lot of terrible stuff done too. I'm not sure if there is a viable business here, by nature repurposed stuff tends towards low end. If you are good enough there are some London dealers who seem to be able to get a lot of money for some of this sort of thing, but I don't think it will work up North. I have been saving some salvaged bits and bobs with an idea to repurpose into useful things, for myself for now. If the results are favourable, then it could be another avenue to explore. 

Mike.


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## [email protected] (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":29mi7v7v said:


> [email protected]":29mi7v7v said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains, I take my hat off to you for this thread and the way you have kinda bared your soul. Its a risky move as it doesnt always bring comments you would ideally like!. Just a question - does your woodworking experience extend only to making or have you any experience in repairing furniture and if so do you enjoy that?
> ...



not really the type of work I was referring to but no worries, good luck with your plans  

btw people like the nice fellow with the shop are fossils who havnt moved with the times - seriously, you dont want to be taking advice of people like that!


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":1rv79jz2 said:


> Jacob":1rv79jz2 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":1rv79jz2 said:
> ...


You stack them up in a corner until somebody comes and buys them. Just like 99.9% of businesses who sell things. Hardly anybody makes stuff to order. Space is an issue of course.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":1ozu4o4a said:


> .......... I can't make and fit a drawer with dovetails and slips in much less than a day.
> 
> Mike.


If you do one at a time that's no surprise! Like being baker and making one mince pie at a time.
If you did a dozen it certainly wouldn't take 12 days

PS oops edited the wrong post! Lost what I was saying.


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## cowfoot (10 Dec 2017)

Jacob":5a40pffq said:


> No proper furniture maker does one offs - it's a penitential cross our "artist/craftsmen" have chosen to bear.



I think you’re being deliberately provocative there, but I tend to agree...
What do you reckon to my idea (well, not really my idea, pretty much every succesful manufacturer does it to some extent!) of standardised components for several different items of furniture? That way you haven’t got large items gathering dust and you can build to order. I live quite close to the Ercol factory, I’ll have to pop my head round the door and pick up some tips.


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## tsb (10 Dec 2017)

Mr T":2fmkiwfc said:


> The truth is that some people are not cut out for being an entrepreneur, which is what you are as a self employed maker. Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and can also talk the talk to convince others of this. Many highly skilled makers are unsuccessful because they do not fit this bill. They concentrate all their on the workshop when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making!
> 
> Good luck Mike.
> 
> Chris




Slightly off topic to the thread, but there might be an "interesting" programme on channel 4 next week called -Worlds most expensive presents. Someone on there selling doggy coats for £40k, someone gold plating bikes,phones or cigars and selling them to people with more money than sense. Are these people true entrepreneurs, or highly skilled makers


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## dzj (10 Dec 2017)

Kitchen cabinet refacing (resurfacing?) is something you might try in a low rent area.
Few tools, no workshop required. A weekend job.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

cowfoot":hp1y9o7y said:


> Jacob":hp1y9o7y said:
> 
> 
> > No proper furniture maker does one offs - it's a penitential cross our "artist/craftsmen" have chosen to bear.
> ...


Not trying to be provocative just trying to point out the obvious.
Your idea would be be a design problem first. Just depends on what designs you'd come up with. As you say it was/is normal. Turnings especially - they'd be bunging out table legs or windsor chair bits by the gross without knowing quite where they'd end up.


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## woodbrains (10 Dec 2017)

Jacob":zfot6kaz said:


> cowfoot":zfot6kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":zfot6kaz said:
> ...



Hello,

Jacob, almost all small makers, one man outfits, do one offs a lot of the time and only when commissioned. You didn't make dozens of windows hoping a customer with the right sizes apertures just happened to come along. Batch production when you get a whole house of windows, yes, just the same as I batch produce the components for a set of dining chairs when someone wants a set, (like people buy those!) But batch making without an order is speculative, it requires investment and space and the hope they will sell quickly enough to recoup the cost quickly enough to avoid bankruptcy. You are talking about factories which make stuff in bulk and sell later. If a one man band tries to work like a factory, it will fail. Everyone does some speculative stuff from time to time, but it is not something you can base your business on entirely. You might make speculative stuff in between commissions, during a lull, or to try out a new design. 

Look at the shaker table above. Someone wants one, in a nice figured cherry, raw materials cost 110 quid for some curly cherry. You make a batch of 5 saving some time through efficiency, in a week. (You can't, but let's argue you can) You sell for 300 because it is nicer than the 250 quid one we saw in plain wood and a week's shop overheads are a minimum of 200 for the week. We take 300 for an outlay of 750. Brilliant, how long can we continue losing 450 a week, and I haven't fed myself either. Jacob for pities sake, all the small makers know speculative making is suicide. 

Cowfoot, the same thing applies. Make a whole load of components waiting for assembly for when the customer decides to buy your product. But you've made everything in Maple and the customer wants cherry, so you batch a whole load more in cherry and the next customer wants oak, then another wants walnut. It doesn't matter how charming a salesman you are. You NEVER I repeat NEVER tie up capital like this, it is one thing I am smart enough to have found out from last time. Even big companies don't make more than they have projected orders for. Look up 'Just in Time' as a manufacturing strategy. 

Mike.


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## tomatwark (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":3qcn5e23 said:


> Tomahawk, I did take almost everything on when I had a workshop last time; I installed fitted kitchens, laid floors, did some house joinery and door hanging, picture framing, I made packing cases once! I thought this was part of my downfall, the diversity meant it was hard to get fully efficient at anything. I found it difficult to cost jobs too. Someone would come along with any woodwork related thing, but I had no datum for costing something I'd never done, so I was likely undercharging just to make the rent. Conventional wisdom would be to specialise in a narrow field and get efficient and streamlined to maximise costs. If it worked for you, then fine, I'll give it some more thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike.



Mike 

I am not saying that all the jobs I have taken on made money, the trick is saying no the next time.

I first went into business when I was 21 and made ALL the same mistakes that you made, I got out after 9 years of struggling when I was offered a job as a works manager in a furniture company.

Older and wiser I set up again in 2005 and although with the problems caused be 2008 I have slowly grown the business to employ 6 people.

You have something in common with me that you have done it before and if you think about it, you should have an idea of what to avoid and what to take on that will make money, even if it is not what you may want to do.

You now have the pricing datum as you have been tried in the past.

I would say that you seem to be fixated with hand dovetails and drawer slips, this will not make you money, buy a dovetail jig and use a router.

Offer hand cut dovetails as an option, I think you will find that at at least £200 per drawer box ( 1 days work ) most customers will go for the routered option with a veneered MDF base.

I am not saying you won't be able to make high end hand made furniture, but have been in this industry long enough to know that these jobs are few and far between especially if you are not in the right bit of the country.

Most customers just want a nice looking piece which is a price they can afford and are not really interested if you have spent 3 weeks cutting all the joints by hand and scraping the surfaces with a cabinet scraper.

Finally my training as an apprentice was partly making high end reproductions, and I loved doing it, and if I thought I could make living at it I would jump at the chance even now.

I am enough of a realist to know that it is a very small market place and I would struggle to keep my head above water.


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## cowfoot (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":qroerx9o said:


> Cowfoot, the same thing applies. Make a whole load of components waiting for assembly for when the customer decides to buy your product. But you've made everything in Maple and the customer wants cherry, so you batch a whole load more in cherry and the next customer wants oak, then another wants walnut. It doesn't matter how charming a salesman you are. You NEVER I repeat NEVER tie up capital like this, it is one thing I am smart enough to have found out from last time. Even big companies don't make more than they have projected orders for. Look up 'Just in Time' as a manufacturing strategy.
> 
> Mike.



You’re thinking like a bespoke maker, who wants to give prospective customers too many options. Fair enough, but I’m more of the Henry Ford school when it comes to giving people a choice...
That aside, a few thousand years of economic history testify to the fact that it’s usually necessary to tie up a certain amount of capital in stock. How much depends, but rarely none at all and never NEVER, caps or not.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":26x4hhk1 said:


> ........... ... Everyone does some speculative stuff from time to time, but it is not something you can base your business on entirely.


You can if you want to. Basically you have to keep up on the selling front so that you aren't accumulating too much stock - so it's effectively a bit of both with a proportion of what you are making already ordered, but not all of it, and during lulls you keep on stocking up.


> Look at the shaker table above. Someone wants one, in a nice figured cherry, raw materials cost 110 quid for some curly cherry. You make a batch of 5 saving some time through efficiency, in a week. (You can't, but let's argue you can)


You could quite easily - they are very simple.


> ..... all the small makers know speculative making is suicide.


No - some of them fail, but it has to be either the product is no good to start with or not enough selling effort. All the big makers start with speculative making


> Cowfoot, the same thing applies. Make a whole load of components waiting for assembly for when the customer decides to buy your product. But you've made everything in Maple and the customer wants cherry, so you batch a whole load more in cherry and the next customer wants oak, then another wants walnut.


You don't necessarily offer options. If you decide to use cherry you use cherry. If they want curly maple you either say no or you make it a special at 3 times the price of the cherry. Probably more - if you've got to go out and get the wood specially and interrupt the flow of production.


> It doesn't matter how charming a salesman you are. You NEVER I repeat NEVER tie up capital like this,....


It's probably the most effective way of tying up the least amount of capital and when you get an order it's delivered and paid for immediately. Imagine being a baker setting up his stall with just flour, yeast, currants and expecting to sell bread and cakes!

Interesting reading all your arguments for doing nothing and taking no risks. Stick with the day job Mike! Have to say - you do seem to be in the ideal position for having a go - may be you don't really want to do it?


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## Doris (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":envffv2x said:


> I don't know if ETSY is worth a try, but to be honest, the few people I know who sell on it aren't shifting a lot of stuff. I always think that seeing items in the flesh is vital for people ti judge the quality. I have just opened an ETSY account and hope to put some things on it soon.
> 
> Thanks for the replies so far.
> 
> Mike.



I own 3 Etsy shops and admin a 4th. One sells my own carving work. 

My advice for Etsy is do cheap and quick stuff. As you need loads of stock on there in order to be seen. 

If you need any advice with Etsy please drop me a pm. I would love to help out with helping you to achieve your goal in life [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]



Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## woodbrains (10 Dec 2017)

tomatwark":xc2e7kmj said:


> woodbrains":xc2e7kmj said:
> 
> 
> > Tomahawk, I did take almost everything on when I had a workshop last time; I installed fitted kitchens, laid floors, did some house joinery and door hanging, picture framing, I made packing cases once! I thought this was part of my downfall, the diversity meant it was hard to get fully efficient at anything. I found it difficult to cost jobs too. Someone would come along with any woodwork related thing, but I had no datum for costing something I'd never done, so I was likely undercharging just to make the rent. Conventional wisdom would be to specialise in a narrow field and get efficient and streamlined to maximise costs. If it worked for you, then fine, I'll give it some more thought.
> ...



Hello,

Thanks for more good advice. Don't worry, my dovetail jig saw much more action than my dovetail saw, trust me! And my supplier of veneered MDF saw my face more than my solid timber supplier; come to think of it so did my paint supplier, most of the stuff I did towards the end was painted built ins. The handmade dovetails and drawer slips was really only to illustrate Jacobs bunkum business model based on his assertion that Custard's side table (which had drawer slips and hand cut dovetails) could be made for 250. 

I've done my fair share of expedient, cost saving methods, and I don't mind it. Sometimes the challenge of doing something down to a price and ending up with a satisfactory product is gratifying. I think you said before, that I'm probably in the wrong area, though.

Perhaps you could tell cowfoot why his generic batch idea is not as good as he thinks. The clue is, I think, the fact that no one else is doing it, might illustrate its inviability. It is not that he is the first to think of it, that's for certain.

Mike.


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## cowfoot (10 Dec 2017)

I’m not sure it is a particularly great or original idea, just (as I’ve already stated) thinking out loud/typing stuff on the internet.
There are millions of people making stuff in batches then selling it, from butchers to bakers via candlestick makers.

“(batch production) can be a very rewarding and satisfying way of working and running a craft workshop, and the challenge of competing more directly with industry and involving a wider public is an exciting one”
Alan Peters, Cabinetmaking - The Professional Approach, p.107
There’s a whole chapter on it, including the design and making of standardised parts.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":7ikxth5c said:


> .....The handmade dovetails and drawer slips was really only to illustrate Jacobs bunkum business model based on his assertion that Custard's side table (which had drawer slips and hand cut dovetails) could be made for 250.......


Only an silly person would make one (except as a costly demo or prototype). Drawer slip are no problem - just one more little glue job. Hand cut DTs could be - but anybody serious about making money would rapidly discover ways of speeding this up i.e. traditional freehand. For many this would be the only craft process needing a bit of development to get up to speed - the rest is simple basic stuff.


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## tomatwark (10 Dec 2017)

Jacob":3o4otaga said:


> woodbrains":3o4otaga said:
> 
> 
> > .....The handmade dovetails and drawer slips was really only to illustrate Jacobs bunkum business model based on his assertion that Custard's side table (which had drawer slips and hand cut dovetails) could be made for 250.......
> ...



It is simple buy a dovetail jig, run grooves directly into the drawer side, nice and quick.

As for batch part production it does work, the firm I served part of my apprenticeship with did it, although we did end up with parts left as designs changed and developed, which ended up heating the workshop, so there will always be some wastage.

You have to have the sales to make it worth while, there is no point in coming up with a designs which you think might sell, make loads of bits and then find there is no demand, this is where market research is called for.

You need the volume to make it worth while though, and only really start to ramp up the stock when you know it is a sound product.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

cowfoot":2o3qe9of said:


> I’m not sure it is a particularly great or original idea, just (as I’ve already stated) thinking out loud/typing stuff on the internet.
> There are millions of people making stuff in batches then selling it, from butchers to bakers via candlestick makers.


It's the normal way of making almost everything


> “(batch production) can be a very rewarding and satisfying way of working and running a craft workshop, and the challenge of competing more directly with industry and involving a wider public is an exciting one”
> Alan Peters, Cabinetmaking - The Professional Approach, p.107
> There’s a whole chapter on it, including the design and making of standardised parts.


Stone me who'd a thought it! One of the gods of the aesthete/artist/craftsman cult! I wouldn't even thought of looking but there it is; Chapter 7 _Batch Production_ and very sensible too.


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## RobinBHM (10 Dec 2017)

Batch production requires a level of marketing and almost certainly retail selling.

As soon as you get into retail, the price structure changes and you have to be thinking in terms of sizeable batches to get the unit price down.


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

RobinBHM":3seiope1 said:


> Batch production requires a level of marketing and almost certainly retail selling.
> 
> As soon as you get into retail, the price structure changes and you have to be thinking in terms of sizeable batches to get the unit price down.


You mean wholesale?
2 is a batch. You may get economies of scale even when making just two items rather than one.


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## Mr T (10 Dec 2017)

Jacob":1ap75dfm said:


> cowfoot":1ap75dfm said:
> 
> 
> > I’m not sure it is a particularly great or original idea, just (as I’ve already stated) thinking out loud/typing stuff on the internet.
> ...



So you do have his book then Jacob.

Chris


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## Jacob (10 Dec 2017)

Mr T":1gerz6u2 said:


> Jacob":1gerz6u2 said:
> 
> 
> > cowfoot":1gerz6u2 said:
> ...


I'm a compulsive book buyer. I just bought "Woodworking in Estonia" :roll:


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## Mr T (10 Dec 2017)

Jacob":ly49181z said:


> I'm a compulsive book buyer. I just bought "Woodworking in Estonia" :roll:



Sounds thrilling.


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## woodbrains (10 Dec 2017)

Mr T":1dgy5kw1 said:


> Jacob":1dgy5kw1 said:
> 
> 
> > cowfoot":1dgy5kw1 said:
> ...



Hello,

And if you read it closely, is tells of the dangers of having capital tied up in stuff you may not easily or ever sell, of coming up with a design that can be batched efficiently and still have the unique mark of the maker, of getting the order books full of takers before commencing the batch so as not to tie up capital and that this difficult line might not be for everyone. It seems Peters didn't do many batches until all the units had a buyer lined up. And he also talked about the sort of batch production we all do, like multiples of dining chairs in a set. Also Peters employed people, he was not a one man band, he had economies of scale not available to a sole craftsman. Also, and this is not without still admiring Peters a lot, his book is horribly out if date. Business models just do not work the way he started his business. Firstly, how many teachers these days can afford to buy rural property with land and outbuildings for premises to start the business without great overheads? Something he says he did, impossible now. Or writing promotional articles for journalists (to save them the job) to get free advertising in newspapers and magazines. This sort of 'advertorial' is big money for publications now, and cost a fortune who ever writes the article and never free. His idea of competition from production makers was G plan and Ercol; high priced first world made stuff. If his competition was Oak furniture land and IKEA he might have said something else. I could go on but it has been a while since I read it and forget much of the things that I identified as being not relevant to the 21st century. His book was written in 1984 for a business in the decades before this. Post was Britain it is not anymore.

I say again, look at Just in Time manufacturing. Not even Ford keeps batches of stuff waiting, taking up space and tying up capital, it is just not done these days. And citing bakers as an example of how batch production works is really spurious. Incidentally, bakers NEVER make more than they have the market to sell to, anyway. Why are they always out if stock of loaves at about 11.30? They would rather only make what they have sales for, rather than speculate and have left overs at the end of the day. 
Mike.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Dec 2017)

Ahem ............. the Peters book was published 32 years ago. What might have worked then in business miight not be a sure bet now.


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## beech1948 (10 Dec 2017)

Woodbrains,

I have had a laugh or two reading through this. While sounding Ok some 50% of the advice has been poor. I think Custard and one or two others have been close and useful.

Me I'm 69, have 22 yrs in a self employed capacity and in my first year earned £500. In my second year I exceeded £100,000. The difference was this:-

1) I stuck to my knowledge base and did a lot of learning and exploring. I spent 20% of my time out talking, meeting having exploratory discussions with everyone. My possible customers, my competitors, advisors ( lawyer, accountant etc the accountant was most useful by a wide mark.) family, friends and BECAME UNAFRAID OF MEETING AND TALKING ABOUT ME AND MY PRODUCT.

2) I learned to cut out all the time wasters and by cut out I mean ignore

3) I understood what I could offer, what I wanted to offer and why I wanted to offer it.

4) I earned £20k + coaching others who asked me to. The first one was a shock to the system that they even asked but paid well.

5) My marketing consisted of a business card and a sort of flyer but very pointed at the function, solution and problems I could solve. eg Fitted alcove units not Master Cabinet Maker.

6) I learned that people buy from people based on trust, empathy, shared values.

7) I also learned that a JFDI attitude paid off in spades

I went on to earn a very good living with woodwork as a very frequently practised hobby. A family crisis left me retired and a widower and bored out of my skull at age 62. You can get in a lot of trouble when you feel like that.

I became interested in boxes. Not £10 cheapies from the orient but £600 to £2000 masterpieces in exotic woods.

I made the first one and gave it to my daughter full of mistakes, issues and errors to my eyes but she did not see these. I made 3 others to stretch myself and made each one better and more attractive. 

10 months after I started doing this I sold one. By accident to someone I had met who liked the photographs and desperately needed a prize for a motor rally event. I made £350. Yes I was greedy but the box was quite good, great design ( stolen off the internet and modified by me). I went on to make 3 a year for him for 4 yrs. All different.

So I would say if your workshop is too small then make small things.

Forget the Cabinet Maker Master Craftsman ideal as it is not viable except for a very few and very hard to make money from. Just put it too one side.

Ignore manufactured solutions as you lack the background.

Given your training ( College of the Redwoods...good grief) trade on it. Consider boxes maybe.

Stay employed but talk to people..move up the line of contacts towards those earning much more than you. Always be selling yourself, capability and confidence that comes from that. Not in a flash way just quiet utter confidence.

You can panic later.

Stay employed for now. Maybe move to a private school. Meet a few parents. Make a stylish box for a prize and give it away but make a production of it. Pupil in the local press receiving award with you as maker in background. Yes the press will be interested.

Your first change would be to breakout of the furniture maker timewarp into something that can be done NOW. Take action.


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## [email protected] (10 Dec 2017)

previous post by Beech is more like it and I would warrant that the poster has good people and networking skills. The repeating theme with successful businesses is the person behind it - mindset, personality, motivation and stickability. Thats not to say an introvert will fail but it will be much much harder for them...


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## woodbrains (10 Dec 2017)

Hello,

Thank you Beech, you are a gentleman and a scholar! Most helpful =D> =D> =D> 

Mike.


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## HappyHacker (10 Dec 2017)

I also am in agreement with Beech. I have run my own businesses for for over 30 years including some short periods of employment by others. I have started and run a few companies with varying degrees of success and had one fail spectacularly. None in manufacturing but with many similarities. I have worked with and for some of the smallest and largest companies both nationally and internationally. 

I would suggest while staying on your job while you develop your business and business skills. One thing that helped me considerably was sales training, I should say I am by nature an introvert. One training film by John Cleese called "Who sold you that then" contained all the mistakes I had made as well as the solutions and I can still remember it nearly 40 years later. While I never become excellent at selling I became reasonably good, the same with marketing. 

Plan your business, try different things, get publicity, get networking and see what works while you are still working.

Good luck, we all need a little bit of it to succeed.


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## MarkDennehy (10 Dec 2017)

More a question than a suggestion, but have any of you guys tried using kickstarter or something similar to get past the batch production overhead problems? It works pretty well for artists of the "draw stuff" variety, it would seem to be a reasonable fit for fine furniture. Granted, you would have to be shipping to everywhere, but that's worked into the price and sod it, what's the point of a postal service if you don't use it?


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## woodbrains (10 Dec 2017)

MarkDennehy":p8apph3u said:


> More a question than a suggestion, but have any of you guys tried using kickstarter or something similar to get past the batch production overhead problems? It works pretty well for artists of the "draw stuff" variety, it would seem to be a reasonable fit for fine furniture. Granted, you would have to be shipping to everywhere, but that's worked into the price and sod it, what's the point of a postal service if you don't use it?



Hello,

Crowdfunding, I'd be interested to see if anyone has used it for furniture, too.

The link cowfoot posted earlier has a crowdfunding element, but not on the furniture as such but on an innovation thing, Lab. httpebastiancox.co.uk/shop?category=Bayleaf

Mike.


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## Smithy (11 Dec 2017)

What a great thread this has been with so much interesting and useful advice. I have a great deal of sympathy with the OP. I spent 31 years in working shifts in a job I hated, but was caught in the mortgage kids to feed trap. On reflection that was a poor excuse. I now supplement my early retirement with a bit of simple woodworking selling at craft fairs. In hindsight I should have had the balls to attempt a business years ago, using my job as a safety net whilst I searched for the best business model for me. I urge the OP to give it a go. Keep your job and build up slowly. Keep it simple without a big investment. Build up a following on the Internet/social media and see how it goes. Hope it works out for you.

Mike


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## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

woodbrains":ejsyhy6r said:


> MarkDennehy":ejsyhy6r said:
> 
> 
> > More a question than a suggestion, but have any of you guys tried using kickstarter or something similar to get past the batch production overhead problems? It works pretty well for artists of the "draw stuff" variety, it would seem to be a reasonable fit for fine furniture. Granted, you would have to be shipping to everywhere, but that's worked into the price and sod it, what's the point of a postal service if you don't use it?
> ...


Crowdfunding. Another good way to postpone action and take no risks. And if it doesn't work you can blame the crowd!
Much safer than JFDI :lol:
What about taking up another hobby and getting away from woodwork at the weekends?


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## MarkDennehy (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob":1ww4svak said:


> Crowdfunding. Another good way to postpone action and take no risks.


Actually, yes, that's the exact point of it. It takes you away from the risk of building a batch of furniture that might take you a year to sell - a year during which you have to pay rent on the space used by stock, a year during which you have money tied up in the materials and time you spent making them, and so on. That was the entire reason they started the kickstarter thing - you put out a kind of ad for what you intend to make, and you don't invest in making it until you have enough buyers lined up who've put down money (in one way or another, whether directly or via escrow or what have you), then you buy the materials and start work. 

I'm curious as to why you don't see more small manufacturers using it; is there an actual problem when applying the idea to woodworking or the like? Or is it just "never seen that before, it can't possibly be good" (which is only correct 95% of the time). 

Granted, it's biased towards the internet-using IT crowd in the US, but on the other hand, they're people with a dung-ton of disposable income and no dependents, who like the shiny shiny. They will literally pay $95 for a lump of wood. Not a piece of furniture, a length of 1" hardwood the length of your keyboard: http://www.stochasticgeometry.ie/2017/03/09/wristrest/
Hell, some guys are targeting them already - look at the deal for Apple HQ's new meeting room tables.


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## cowfoot (11 Dec 2017)

Mike -

You’re quite right about some aspects of Alan Peter’s business model being outdated - the price of property/workshop space is a particular killer.
However, he was also writing long before the internet. As some opportunities disappear, others open up. He’d have been amazed at how simple it is to advertise and sell products nowadays.
As for writing promotional articles being a dead-end, in my experience it’s quite the opposite. I wrote a few articles for Houzz (I suggested it, they jumped down my throat) which were so succesful in driving traffic to my website I had to turn projects down. You’ve got a far superior background to mine in terms of craft training and experience, you can express yourself clearly (plenty can’t!) - you’d be surprised at how many people want to hear about it. Doubt you’d get paid much for the articles but it certainly beats Google Ads.


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## Hornbeam (11 Dec 2017)

I'm going to make an occasional table this weekend and see if that will sell.

Mike.[/quote]
hi Mike, like a lot of internet forum threads, there is some good advice and some very negative stuff, You have to take a take both to give you a balanced view. I think you should stick with your current job as it gives you security and focus on making a number of small pieces that challenge you and give you a good feeling. Making things with no time/money pressure though is totally different from commercial reality.
Do you have images of previous work/work in progress to share. I would put it on as many forms of social media as you can.

How did the table progress this week end
Ian


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## El Barto (13 Dec 2017)

cowfoot":37jb143g said:


> custard":37jb143g said:
> 
> 
> > cowfoot":37jb143g said:
> ...



I can't say I like anything about this company but it is a great example of marketing/branding perfection, something that relates to earlier posts here about one's online presence. They know exactly their target audience and have completely played to it. It is 100% suitably wafty nonsense (they even have a little number showing emissions next to products!). It's all total BS but I bet it's effective and I bet it makes them money. Gotta at least respect the hustle if not the work.


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## woodbrains (13 Dec 2017)

Hornbeam":3751eehn said:


> I'm going to make an occasional table this weekend and see if that will sell.
> 
> Mike.


 hi Mike, like a lot of internet forum threads, there is some good advice and some very negative stuff, You have to take a take both to give you a balanced view. I think you should stick with your current job as it gives you security and focus on making a number of small pieces that challenge you and give you a good feeling. Making things with no time/money pressure though is totally different from commercial reality.
Do you have images of previous work/work in progress to share. I would put it on as many forms of social media as you can.

How did the table progress this week end
Ian[/quote]

Hello,

I ended up re finishing the kitchen worktops instead!

This is another reason I want to make things as a job. When family things or household jobs crop up, my weekends in the shed get sidelined. There are only four in a month, so doing a biggish project like I used to takes so long, it feels like they never get done.

Mike.


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