# Dovetail saw - Pax or Lie Nielsen?



## profchris (26 Jul 2016)

I might get one or the other as a present - but which?

Pax are 20 tpi, Lie Nielsen 15. Otherwise the specs are very close. And any views on rip or crosscut (I'm tending to rip if only for ease of sharpening). 

I think I'd like views from those who've used them, and suggestions for any others around the same price. Can't run to a Skelton sadly, and the Veritas is too ugly for a present!

If it helps, it will be used for making ukuleles, though I might venture a dovetail some day. In any event, accurate shallow cuts are what I need it for.


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## John15 (27 Jul 2016)

Don't rule out Veritas. Before buying I thought the same as you about it's appearance but once I got over that I now enjoy using it very much, and to counter it's looks the price is very attractive.

John


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## Peter Sefton (27 Jul 2016)

The Pax is also available in the 15 TPI, I usually recommend buying a rip saw first, most cuts in furniture making are rip cuts. 

This is a review written by my students and I a few years ago, before we sold tools or the 15 TPI was made by Pax.

http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... icle57.pdf

Cheers Peter


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## undergroundhunter (27 Jul 2016)

I have a Pax 10" 15tpi bought through Peter and its a fantastic little saw. My only criticism is that the handle is quite large but other than that its very good.

Matt


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## JonnyW (27 Jul 2016)

I own the LN and I've bleated on about LN before - they just do it for me. LN take tried and tested designs and just make them better. LN always win hands down on the looks front (maybe that's the traditionalist in me) 

The dovetail saw is lovely to look at with the open curly maple handle - simply beautiful. I could easily hang it up in the livingroom.

The Pax is a nice looking saw, however I can't compare it for performance unfortunately as I don't own one, so I'm no use to you at all. Other than the LN is a lovely saw to use and the handle fits my hand like it was moulded from it (I have big hands). I thought about buying the tapered version, but stuck with the standard blade.

Jonny


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## richarddownunder (28 Jul 2016)

Hi. I have the Pax 1776 Dovetail (Peter's verson) and apart from its obvious aesthetic appeal, I find it great to use - just the right feel and weight. Can't say I have compared it with the LN though. I'm sure either would be a great gift but I would rather support Sheffield-made given the choice and all things being fairly equal.

Cheers
Richard


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## Biliphuster (28 Jul 2016)

I have a 15tpi Pax and like it a lot. Even though it's filed rip the teeth are fine enough that you can crosscut with it as well, which I do a lot for the end of dovetails or small tenon shoulders. The sharpening job on it when it came was also nothing short of astounding, the saw seemed to almost be sucked into the wood. 

Whilst it will come down to personal preference I went with the Pax because it is heavier and has a larger handle (I have played with the LN offering in an shop). I think they are both handsome tools but the folded brass back really made the Pax stand out for me.


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## deema (28 Jul 2016)

Have you considered Skelton Saws? For me it's got a better weight and you can get the handle made for your hand. I don't own one, but tried them at the fairs.
skeltonsaws.co.uk


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## tooooools (28 Jul 2016)

The Pax saws are really nice...
Which Pax dovetail saw are you looking at... the Maple 1776 or the beech handled version?


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## AJB Temple (28 Jul 2016)

I have a Pax (among other things). What I actually use now though is a Veritas. Pax looks better. Veritas quicker and easier to use and very light in the hand. I would not worry too much - you will be happy with any quality saw. 

Actually thinking about it, a lot of the time now I use one of the Japanese pull saws hung on a magnetic rack behind my main bench. Super fine cut. I reach for them because they are handly and the other saws are kept in drawers.


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## deema (28 Jul 2016)

How a saw cuts is completely down to how it's been sharpened; sorry to mention the s**** word. 

Dovetails are rip cut, and you need about 4 teeth minimum in the cut to have a nice cut, this allows you to determine the minimum number of points per inch you need (PPI) for most applications, apart from stuff less than say 6mm or 1/4", 14PPI is about right. The higher the PPI the slower the saw will cut. 

The smoothness of the cut face is for a dovetails determined by the amount of set on the teeth. You need almost none for dovetails as the cut in not very deep. IMO the reason to have a dovetail saw is to have a saw with the absolute minimum of set, it's the only real differentiator to it being a tennon saw.

When sawing you should let the weight of the saw do the work, and you just pull and push guiding the blade and don't press down on the blade. For harder woods you need a saw with a heavy brass back. A lighter saw can result in you adding downward pressure to keep the saw cutting. Doing this results in you having less control over the blade and cutting less accurately. 

The Veritas saw is a lovely saw, but much lighter than the Pax or LN. The Skeltel saw is heavier IMO than any of the aforementioned, and is more akin to the 'old saws'. A heavy saw is just as happy cutting softwood as hardwood. The only time the weight becomes a problem is on very thin stuff, where the saw can then due to its weight cut too aggressively. Most people for stuff below 1/4" look at using a Gentlemans saw. 

The 'blow out' on the backs of the cuts in the article highlighted is in my opinion solely down to amount of set on the teeth. The PAX saw with the highest number of teeth will have less set. It's very difficult to put much set on such small teeth. Most manufactured saws have more set than you need for dovetails, and the higher the PPI acts to limit the extent of the set applied. I can for instance get a saw with say 14PPI to cut with no discernible difference to one with 20PPI, however it will cut significantly faster.

Cutting at a good rate is important as again, if the rate of progress is too slow, the tendency is to weight the blade to make it go faster. Equally as the blade becomes dull, the speed of cut slows, which is more noticeable on a saw with a higher PPI.


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## pedder (29 Jul 2016)

deema":3um9c2h2 said:


> How a saw cuts is completely down to how it's been sharpened;


So the thickness of the blade, the weight of the spine and the hang angle of the handle are completly without influence? 



deema":3um9c2h2 said:


> The smoothness of the cut face is for a dovetails determined by the amount of set on the teeth.


What about the rake? Don't a few moe degree rake make the cut smoother?


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## MIGNAL (29 Jul 2016)

15 TPI is a bit easier on the eyes in respect of sharpening. For Ukulele's I suspect that a X-cut would be a little more appropriate but you will be OK with a rip. Unlike dovetails there aren't many places where the cut is the final finished cut or joint. 
The Veritas is light in weight but it's a good saw if you can get past it's modern looks. It comes sharper than any new saw that I've ever bought save perhaps the odd Japanese type. I also have an older Pax, Roberts and Lee plus a vintage Groves. The Groves fits my hand and feels the best but it has a thicker plate. The Pax, the Roberts and Lee are very fine teeth. I tend to use the Veritas because it's sharp, largely because it's a bit easier to sharpen than my other saws at 20 TPI.


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## beech1948 (29 Jul 2016)

I have a rip and Xcut Veritas saw for dovetails and cross grain cuts. I think these are excellent and a good price now Axi have reduced the price. I have had them for about 5 yrs I think and tested against Ln and PAX before buying.

I also use a suite of japanese saws which for sma;ller box type dovetails are excellent.

Al


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## Mike Jordan (31 Jul 2016)

I haven't used a pax but I can speak well of the Lie Neilson, mine is a joy to use.
Mike.


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## mugginsNO1 (31 Jul 2016)

Another shout out for the Veritas. It's very comfortable in the hand and cuts beautifully.


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## Benchwayze (4 Aug 2016)

Neither. Get a Wenzlof. Worth waiting for.


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## Sam R (9 Aug 2016)

I have a LN 15t dovetail saw, which is beautiful to look at but in truth I don't find the handle all that comfortable and a bit small. It may well suit you - I am willing to part with it too, it has seen very little use, box etc, PM me if interested - anyway I also have 2 Pax saws: not the open handled 1776 but the beech closed handle 13t/12" rip and a 15t/10" cross and I really like them. The steel is good, they have a fine folded back (can re-tension/straighten) but the handles are a little clunky. _But_ there is loads of wood to cut into to refine (which I haven't got round to doing yet). The real clincher for these, for me, is that they share the hand sharpened plate & brass spine of the 1776 but are around £30 cheaper. The 12" carcass was less than £90 new. Bargain. The 1776 handle could/should be more refined for the extra cost in my opinion. Not that this would stop me from buying one if I was set on an open handle and I prefer these to the LN shape.


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## profchris (9 Aug 2016)

Thanks to all for your help. I've ended up choosing the Pax 1776 and it's sitting in its box as I type. Reasons: Good comments about its usability, it *looks* like a present (important for the giver!), and perhaps some sentimentality about UK manufacture and the traditional techniques.

I can't look at it yet because my birthday is next week. I'll post some comments once I've had time to play with it.


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## thomasflinn (16 Aug 2016)

Good choice  No biased here obvs =D> =D> =D> 

Thank you for supporting us, our saws and of course, Great British manufacturing....

Please also feel free to come to our Sheffield Tool Event the Kelham Island Museum - 11th Sept 11am-4pm. Meet the makers of your saws!
Our products along with other Sheffield makers are being sold here. Also behind the scenes tours of the Hawley tool collection are bookable.
More info on our facebook page.


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## profchris (27 Sep 2016)

I've had my Pax saw for a month now. First impressions are that it's a genuine precision instrument. I feel like surgeon using it, rather than the hack sawyer I felt before. 

My one criticism is the handle, which feels square with rounded edges. At some point I'll rework it to fit my hand. But I think that a little more rounding of the edges would give it a more "organic" and luxurious feel in the hand, and I can't imagine anyone would prefer it squarer. 

That aside I'd happily recommend it to potential buyers.


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## Khendon (29 Sep 2016)

I have the Veritas and the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saws and thought I'd venture my opinion for what it's worth, though I am a newbie.

The Veritas is nice and cuts quickly. Get a little bit of blow out on the back, and it is a little awkward to get started. Feel like I have to be a bit aggressive with it at the start but it's fine once it's going. Definitely good value for money.

The Lie-Nielsen is an entirely different matter. It's quite heavy, but not unwieldy. Easy to get started and tracks really well. Cut is effortless, partly I think due to the extra weight. It just glides through. I'm not the best at hand sawing yet but I can cut straight with this saw pretty much every time. It's easy to stay relaxed and let the saw do the work. It also looks gorgeous and I now need the full set...

Regards

Dave


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Sep 2016)

profchris":1ys6fc8a said:


> I might get one or the other as a present - but which?
> 
> Pax are 20 tpi, Lie Nielsen 15. Otherwise the specs are very close. And any views on rip or crosscut (I'm tending to rip if only for ease of sharpening).
> 
> ...



Chris, since the saw appears to be for detail work primarily, the saw you need is a small crosscut with about 18-20 ppi. Saws such as the LN 15tpi are not indicated. I have the LN and it is one of my favourite dovetail saws, but I also have a dedicated crosscut 20 ppi plate from the days when Wenzloff made kits, and I used this to make an 11" joinery saw ..







I have a custom Wenzloff dovetail saw which has 20 ppi and about 3 degrees of rake. This is very acceptable for crosscuts as well.

The closest rip toothed saw I have that comes close to this is the 20ppi Veritas dovetail saw. One cannot compare a LN dovetail saw with a Veritas dovetail saw. The LN has 15 tpi with zero rake, while the Veritas has 20 ppi (or 19 tpi) and 14 degrees rake. The LN will cut aggressively, while the Veritas will be much slower, but also much smoother and easier to start. 

My ideal saw for dovetailing in hardwoods is something with 15 tpi and no more than one or two degrees of rake. As you can see, this is quite different from a saw that focuses on detail work. You are trying to target two areas with the same saw. You will be better off getting one for each situation.

To muddy the waters a little, another saw that I find ideal for detail work is a Japanese Z-Saw dozuki.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## G S Haydon (29 Sep 2016)

Try a Stanley Eagle dovetail saw. Rare, cuts very well, brass back and a new concept in handle material. All joking aside both would be fine, whichever you fancy.


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