# Starting to work with metal?



## Chris152

My son's 15 and has recently done welding, some work on an anvil and soon to do some turning in school for his gcse engineering. I want to encourage him in this but don't have the option to invest in the kind of kit needed for that sort of work. 

Is there any metal working that we could easily start at home (not too noisy, expensive or hazardous)? Maybe working with copper or brass - does that require lower temps than steel? I've no idea, I learned to weld many years back but that's about it. Oh, and it'd have to be done outside - the garage is spoken for by wood!

Thanks

Chris


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## LancsRick

You say he's done some smithing, why not get a forge set up? You need very few tools to be able to do a lot with it.


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## Chris152

LancsRick":297k6ada said:


> You say he's done some smithing, why not get a forge set up? You need very few tools to be able to do a lot with it.


He's been on about that - it involves heating and hammering the metal into shape, right? I reckon that'd get the neighbours' backs up?! I did check for intro courses on smithing but they all seemed to be for 18+ years near us. Since then I spoke with a couple of friends who have forges (not so near here) and they've said they'll show him, but that'll be some time off.


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## Rorschach

Sheet metal work is a great cheap way to get into making practical projects.

For a start, sheet metal can be had for free in lots of places, you just have to look around. The thin gauge used on the outside of white goods is perfectly fine for lots of things and thin aluminium is used for signage.
As for tools, an angle grinder is nice but not essential, just a couple of pairs of cheap tin snips will do most things. A bender again is nice, and not expensive, but you can get by without it. 
As for joining, a drill and a pop rivet gun. For about a tenner you can nice rivet gun and selection of rivets.

If he uses only the hand tools, the noise made it almost zero, not much mess either.

Oh and a tip for long neat straight cuts on aluminium sheet; using a straight edge and a stanley knife score the line gently and repeat the scoring several times, keep the pressure light so you don't slip. After about 10 cuts you will have a nice deep line. Then bend on the score line, it should bend easily. Work the bend back and forth a couple of times and it will snap very cleanly.

I have made cuts a metre long in 1.5mm sheet and they needed just a few minutes with a file and sandpaper for a perfect straight edge. No noise, no mess, no fancy tools.


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## AES

Hullo Chris,

It sounds like your son is going to the sort of school that I (and many others of my generation) went to back in the 1950s. Great! From all that I've heard that doesn't happen much in UK these days, so as I think that UK needs more "technicians", and as I firmly believe that whatever he ends up doing for a technical career, that all starts from basic hand skills, I find it great that you want to encourage him. Well done Sir.

Now to the "easy" bit. Any ideas about what he wants to make? Are we talking sheet metal work here, or more "solid" work?

To do anything in metal he needs access to a basic set of hand tools, such as measuring and marking out equipment, hack saws, files, drills, etc. And I assume that through you he already has access to basic hand tools such as screwdrivers, spanners, pliers, etc, right?

So let us know what ideas he (you?) have about what to make and there are loads of us here who'll be pleased to help.

Meantime, think about materials and reading.

For materials some skip diving is called for, and just about "any old bits of metal" will do. This can add difficulties with "unknown lumps" but also broadens the experience quickly. Plus some suppliers - I suggest those who cater for the model engineering fraternity, and you'll find several listed in the sticky at the top of the General Metal Working section of this Forum.

For books, there are the local library and/or Amazon, and/or any SH bookshops if you have any nearby. Personally I highly recommend these books:

"Metalworking Tools and Techniques" by Stan Bray, ISBN 1-86126-573-5. As the name suggests, a good all round intro, and full of practical hints and tips, as well as good ideas on tools.

"Model Engineering - a foundation course" by Peter Wright, ISBN 1-85486-152-2. As you'd expect, a lot of information on lathes and turning, but even if he doesn't lean that way/funds don't permit, a lot of good basic stuff in there too.

"Making Woodwork Aids & Devices" by Robert Wearing, ISBN 0-00-412644-0. If he's not sure of what he wants to make, and as you're a wood worker, I'll bet you'll find a lot of bits and pieces in this book that you could use and he'd like to have a bash at making!

To that I'd add a subscription to the mag "Model Engineer's Workshop" (rather than the original "Model Engineer" mag) The former has a lot more general info. But both have lots of small ads by suppliers of all sorts, plus private sales of all sorts of useful tools, kits, materials, etc.

I hope that above is enough to start you both off. Come back with any more Qs, and especially when he's decided what he wants to make.

Good luck to you both and HTH.


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## Fergal

I have to second AES comment about Model Engineers Workshop magazine. I've recently come back to metalworking after a 35 year absence and found it invaluable.

As for projects not involving expensive equipment, what about soldering copper? You just need a plumbing blowtorch and some old copper pipe which can be split lengthwise and hammered flat to make sheet. There are also brazing rods available which can be used with a propane torch to join aluminium.

Aluminium casting can also be done with very limited equipment. A charcoal BBQ and a fan can get hot enough to melt aluminium. There are lots of videos on Youtube about how to do this.

Fergal


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## Fergal

Another idea if sheet metal projects are of interest, is a spot welder. These can be made from a microwave oven transformer and the sheet metal of the case can be salvaged for projects. Free microwave ovens are easy to find on Gumtree, Facebook, etc. 

Again, lots of videos on Youtube about making spot welders.

Fergal


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## TFrench

If you're anywhere near leicester we're desperate for a new apprentice!


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## sunnybob

About a dozen years ago I was getting into ornamental iron work. Its a quiet hobby, that allows you to make stuff that can actually be sold.
Their web site doesnt work now but I have found them on facebopok and there are a couple you tube vids too.
https://www.facebook.com/MetalcraftUK/


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## Chris152

Really, really helpful replies everyone - thanks so much! I guess the biggest question I have to sort is the one AES asked - what does he want to make?! Well, one's a sheath knife (it'll be kept in the garage and fetched out when we're doing stuff together), and a friend says he's going to help with that some time over summer. The other's a go kart, which he's been on about for a few years but looks incredibly expensive, and no idea where could use it once built. And that needs loads of kit and skills that I don't have, so that's out. tbh I think he's been hooked by the processes of shaping metal, so we need to talk about what's possible with what we have and what we can reasonably get. One thing I haven't let on to him about is that I'd really quite like to get a mig welder for some of the stuff I'd like to do - if I tell him I'm thinking about it he won't shut up til I get one. 



sunnybob":jp0ceygg said:


> About a dozen years ago I was getting into ornamental iron work. Its a quiet hobby, that allows you to make stuff that can actually be sold.
> Their web site doesnt work now but I have found them on facebopok and there are a couple you tube vids too.
> https://www.facebook.com/MetalcraftUK/


That stuff looks brilliant Bob though to see the prices - wait for it - you have to register and log in! (Saw your RP post earlier...) I'm going to do it anyway, just did a quick trawl of the net and people rate it very highly and judging by the vids, it looks quiet and full of possibilities. 

We're going to talk about what he wants to make the next couple of days and I'll post again when things get clearer - tho I might just do a bit of skip diving in the meantime to see what I can find - and I have a pop riveter somewhere if I can find it, maybe just cutting and joining some bits will get the conversation going. 

I'm really grateful for all the replies - thanks again.

C


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## Fergal

One of my kids was into knife making for a while. All you need for that is a bench grinder or a belt sander and a few hand tools.

As for go karts, I fancy making one myself. It doesn't have to be expensive. You can use salvaged box section steel from old bed frames etc. Motors from wheelchairs or hoverboards can be used, or you can even use a car alternator as a motor. Good excuse to get that MIG welder I reckon!


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## sunnybob

The metalcraft stuff uses annealed iron strips, you bend to shape, drill and rivet, etc. with almost no noise. the possibilities are endless. The only reason I didnt carry on with it was when I moved here I could not get the soft iron as he has it specially done in spain, and I just couldnt see me ordering a ton at a time.

If you want to make a knife, all you have to do is visit a vehicle scrap yard and get an old suspension leaf spring. and a 100 hacksaw blades, and a 1000 foot of emery paper, and a tube of solvol. Done that. Of course nowadays there are angle grinders and grindstones to speed things up a bit.

I had a hunting knife when I was 12 (still got it) But of course back then you only got arrested AFTER you stuck someone.


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## LancsRick

Knife making is a fantastic suggestion actually, minimal tools but you can create some stunning pieces with practice.


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## Rorschach

If you want to do knifemaking, start with knife handling. Superb blades can be had very cheaply, like less than a tenner. Learning how to handle them will set you down the right path for making your own knives and what is needed to handle those etc. It's dead easy to rough out a blade, more difficult is to make a harmonious blade and handle that is strong, practical and beautiful. Start with a kit and work up from there.

https://brisa.fi/


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## AES

I don't know anything about knife making, or ornamental wrought iron, but both sheet metal working (good for "bodywork" on the go cart), soldering sheet metal (copper's good), AND the MIG welder? That's a DEFINITE IMO! There's a very good web site for wanna-be welders which is worth looking at - I don't have the linky, sorry, but just do a search for "MIG WELDING" on youtube. As ever, read everything you read/watch there with a bit of care (like many others I've seen some videos - on a lot of different subjects - which I deffo would NOT want to try)!

There's a lot of videos on electric powered "play" go carts for kids too, some of which may help if you don't want to go deep end in first (with proper racing machines).

Let us know how you both get on please.


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## chiokli

When I was starting out in making, I really wanted to weld stuff so bought a 120A Arc/stick welder from Aldi for about, £50 back then. There wasn't as much YouTube tutorials back then, but I was able to weld some tubes and bicycle frames into a mountain board with big tyres. Arc welding is so cheap to do compared to MIG, but the learning curve is much steeper. AvE on YouTube talks about how simple MIG welding can be and the false sense of accomplishment. 

Plug it in through the kitchen window, get some 6012 electrodes and a welding mask and you can join all sorts of salvaged steel together.


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## bourbon

If you are going the welding route. There is a very good forum as mentioned before. Mig or stick, the first thing to do is throw away the stupid masks that they all seem to come with. Pop onto E-bay and get an auto darkening mask. they really do help. Don't forget that the stuff you stick together WILL be hot so be careful how you handle it.


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## Fergal

I started with a cheap Aldi AC arc welder (£20). It will stick bits of metal together but only thicker stuff ( >3mm) and is not the best machine to learn on. There are also cheaper DC inverter arc welders available now for £70ish that are easier to use, but still require a lot of skill on thinner materials. MIG is significantly easier to learn although requires a larger investment, but is much more suitable for thin stuff.

+1 for the auto-darkening mask.

The welding forum mentioned previously is here:

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/

I'm a member over there also. It's a very friendly forum with lots of useful info and helpful members.


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## sunnybob

Or, combine both hobbies....







I've made several edged weapons, just because I can. I have a bubinga chefs knife that will slice cucumber easily.


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## bourbon

Fergal":18p7bp8i said:


> I started with a cheap Aldi AC arc welder (£20). It will stick bits of metal together but only thicker stuff ( >3mm) and is not the best machine to learn on. There are also cheaper DC inverter arc welders available now for £70ish that are easier to use, but still require a lot of skill on thinner materials. MIG is significantly easier to learn although requires a larger investment, but is much more suitable for thin stuff.
> 
> +1 for the auto-darkening mask.
> 
> The welding forum mentioned previously is here:
> 
> http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/
> 
> I'm a member over there also. It's a very friendly forum with lots of useful info and helpful members.



I wasn't sure If I could post the link, so thank you for doing so. I'm a member, (same username) Agree about the thickness of arc welding But it's a tool you can put away and not worry about wire rusting, gas leaking and stuff like that.


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## Fergal

bourbon":3baoxkwm said:


> I wasn't sure If I could post the link, so thank you for doing so. I'm a member, (same username) Agree about the thickness of arc welding But it's a tool you can put away and not worry about wire rusting, gas leaking and stuff like that.



I have a TIG/MMA combo machine now so only use the arc function for thicker stuff, but you're right, an arc welder is the easiest and cheapest way to get into welding. Just remember to keep your welding rods dry as they absorb moisture and will be harder to light. I keep mine in the airing cupboard.


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## Chris152

I've told the boy about this thread and we're going to sit down and read through it together tonight. I'll gloss over my bit about buying a welder. So much info and so many possibilities now - I was really unsure where to start thinking about it but there are clear options that don't have to involve £££s which is brilliant. Tbh I don't know why he can't get excited about making things from wood - I've got the basic kit to make all kinds of things, but that's teenagers for you. :?


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## Fergal

I have two teenage boys and they're not interested in making anything anymore now that Fortnite has taken over. Last year the younger one made a few fidget spinners from wood and metal which he sold at school, but that fad didn't last long.

I only got into metalworking a couple of years ago, I still enjoy woodworking, but I find now if anything needs making I'm looking for an excuse to get the welder out. Metalworking is also more forgiving as if you mess up a joint you can just grind it off and have another go. It is also an excuse to acquire lots of new tools! These don't have to be expensive, I get most of mine from ebay, gumtree or car boot sales.


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## Sideways

There's a marvellous craft tradition of knife making in scandinavia. The suggestion to buy a blade and handle it is a good one. Kind of "forged in fire" round two with someone else having done the forging. Very good to learn that knives are tools and associated with crafts instead of the media ignorance that is universal these days.
Take a look at 
https://www.thegoodstuffshop.dk/l/Knivbygning
for a marvellous range of scandinavian pattern blades from the simple and economical to a wide range of damascus.


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## dynax

for metal, have a look around and see if you can pick up an old caravan, this will give you some ali sheets, and a chassis which you can reuse for the kart, you might even get one for free,


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## AES

If it was me Chris, I wouldn't worry about "the boy" (hasn't the poor chap got a name?) preferring metal over wood. It sounds like he got the "hand work" bug in him (personally I don't like the "Maker" label, but that's just me) and the main thing is that you continue to help and encourage him.

Most likely he'll find out for himself that some things are better made in metal, others in wood (speaking very generally) and he'll "move back and forth" now and again, as and when he sees the different needs.

And you could also think about "moving over" a bit yourself too!  

Without wishing to repeat myself, I hope you get a copy of that book I listed before, about making wood work devices by Robert Wearing. I only came across it myself quite recently, and was surprised to see how much of a wood/metal mixture there is in there - AND there's the bonus of making some things which you can both put to good use in "the wood working department".

And again, sorry to repeat, but that Stan Bray book I listed before is also well worth it - like the Wearing book it's got a lot of little gizmos he can make for future use in his metal working, AND it gives a very good overview of the whole subject, touching (albeit briefly) on just about every "branch" that's already been mentioned here in this thread. It sounds like his school is doing a good job of introducing him to the whole arena, but further background reading can't be bad. 

Good luck and "more power to yer elbow "boy""! It's really great to hear of a young chap getting interested in "the old skills"!


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## moretea

Hi 
Get an old land rover, for a project could be kept outside under a tarpaulin , plenty of ally & steel to work on, keep him busy for ages.


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## Chris152

moretea":26illx3z said:


> Hi
> Get an old land rover, for a project could be kept outside under a tarpaulin , plenty of ally & steel to work on, keep him busy for ages.


Now I like that idea!

Just an update - we read through last night. First thing, he was so pleased you'd all made such an effort to advise him. As am I. Second - we went online and ordered a blade from Heinnie Haynes (which it turns out is just down the road from here). No real metal working in that I guess, but he seemed keen on the idea of fashioning the handle to fit his hand, and on making a sheath from leather. All good skills.
Beyond that, he said he'd also like to try an axe, so that'll probably be next. Happy to say there's woodworking involved in both! ;-) 
Hopefully that'll keep us going til the summer hols when we can visit a friend in west Wales with a forge and start on a knife from scratch. 

I'll be working back through the thread following up links and books suggested and no doubt we'll be back with more questions before too long.

Again, thanks so much for your help.

C and 'the boy'!


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## hawkeyefxr

Like some other here i started out in the metalwork shop at school in the 60s then went into an indentured apprenticeship for 5 years. I went through many stages, sheet metal, tool room and drawing office. I did progress to thicker pieces of steel up to 4in thick, that took some welding.

On to present day, now retired. I bought myself a cheap Tig welder, this is good because it can weld quite a wide span of metal thicknesses. The thicker they are the longer it takes on small welder but it does teach you to be patient.

As to skip diving that is really a thing of the past as ANY scrap metal is money. However you could do what i did when i bought my TIG welded, i went to a sheet metal shop and asked if i could 'raid' their scrap bib for small metal section. I told them why i want ed it and also said i would bring back my welded pieces of scrap and put them in the bin for some more bits. That way they lose no money .

I do feel these days we are losing the ability to make anything, if you can make a place and make your own pieces like iron work you can make a living at what you enjoy doing.


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## Chris152

That's a great idea hawkeye - there's a metal shop a couple of miles from here, I can go and have a word with them about getting scraps from their bins to experiment with. If I do get a welder, I'm inclined to go with mig as people says it's easier, and one of the technicians at work gave me some coaching using mig last summer before I took early retirement so I feel a bit more confident with that (many years back I learned with oxy-acetylene, which I really liked but never got anything like competent at). 



hawkeyefxr":367286r2 said:


> I do feel these days we are losing the ability to make anything, if you can make a place and make your own pieces like iron work you can make a living at what you enjoy doing.



Couldn't agree more. Computers are taking over, and doing a good job I guess. But there's a very different kind of satisfaction in making something for yourself. Whatever it is, I've told my kids to find something they love and get really good at it. That way they'll be able to pay the bills and hopefully be happy.


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## --Tom--

I’m working all hours at the moment so barely any workshop time, but could help out with heat treating and talking through the grinding / handling process for knives.

Can’t promise much at the moment but over the next couple of weeks will hopefully get a bit more time.

A kiridashi style marking knife is a quick enough project that’ll go through the basics, plus give a tool to use for woodwork.

O1 Ground flat stock is cheap enough that you can make a few for not much money


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## --Tom--

Meant to add I’m in Cardiff so not far away


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## Chris152

Thanks Tom. We've got a friend who's planning to help with blade making in the summer so we're sorted with that - but really appreciate your offer. His blade blank has arrived, now we've just got to figure out how to get a handle attached! Plenty of youtube vids on that, so hopefully all fine. Except that he's set his mind on tigerwood, not a lot of that about these parts... :?


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## Rorschach

Talking about this reminded me I had a blade to handle as well, got started today, only taken about 5 years lol.


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## SteveW1000

Could look for some old school project books on ebay or similar. In the 50s and 60s there were books with project ideas for teachers. Usually started out with ideas that didn't need much in the way of tools. These are from a time when the whole class did the same thing.


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## Chris152

Since I last posted here, he brought this home:





Hacksaw, rounded corners with file, circular bending jib to round bottom section, clamped and hammered top section to correct angle, cut and filed backplate, pillar drill for attaching, removed oxidation from areas to be welded, arc welded, cleaned welds with electric hand sander, removed oxidation all over, heated and then dipped in powder paint machine (he didn't remember the term) and hung to dry. He's pretty proud of it. And since then he's been using a metal lathe and loving it.

(And since we talked about what gets done in school, my daughter brought this home the same day!




It's got a pcb in it and led lamp that shifts colour (a bit like in the old oil lamps?), and she soldered the circuit herself - as well as the wood and art work. Happy day for me. It's just the local comp and I think they're getting at least some things right!)

Anyhoo, this is the blade we bought:




Can anyone point me to a video online that tells us how to set about making the handle? I've watched a few and there seem to be different methods (it's called part-tang, right?).

Thanks, Chris.


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## Rorschach

Nice work there!

That's a stick tang with a pin hole. You don't have to use the pin hole but it will improve the hold. 

Very basically, you drill a hole in the piece of wood for the handle, ideally small holes you widen into a slot for the tang, then use a good epoxy to set the blade. File/sand shape to fit and you are done.


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## AES

Nice coat hook young Sir, and I like the lamp too. That seems a pretty good school they go to - I thought all that "dangerous, practical stuff" went out of the window in UK years ago!

Well done to them both! =D> =D> (one each)!

Knives? Absolutely NIL knowledge at all, sorry


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## Sideways

Use this as a guide and you won't go far wrong. Scandinavian knives are mostly stick tang like this and all just epoxied together. I'd ignore the hole in the tang for this one.

https://brisa.fi/tutorial_nordic_knife

Forged in fire episodes also show bladesmiths heating the tang red hot and burning the hole into the handle but i would skip that for a first knife  

There are other ways but I'd say this was well proven.


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## Chris152

Thanks all - comments passed on and gratefully received! 

That guide looks good Sideways - and I've seen a video of someone burning in the tang but reckon, as you say, we'll just stick to the epoxy (probably literally). 

I'll post once we've made some progress.

Cheers

C
ps would this stuff from Halfords work ok? And if so, is it also good for filling cracks in wood/ bowls?
https://www.halfords.com/motoring/paint ... esin-250ml

edit - reading around, it seems it's epoxy resin I need for the woodwork, so will get some of that. Wests - not cheap tho, is it?!


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## AES

As said before, I know nothing about knives, but for such a job as "sticking" a piece of wood to a piece of metal I've often found that the "old, original" Araldite (the stuff in 2 tubes that takes 24 hours+ to really harden, NOT the "Rapid" which hardens "softer") is VERY good for such jobs. And it's more easily available - and cheaper! - than West, which although excellent, IS expensive.

HTH

Edit for a P.S. As always though, ABSOLUTE cleanliness and grease-free is the key.


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## Rorschach

You don't need West Systems, araldyte or similar will work fine. I have been recently using Lidl epoxy and it's lovely stuff, slow drying (overnight for full cure) and dries really nice and hard but not brittle.


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## Sideways

It's good to see anyone starting off down a path that can develop craft skills, perseverance, attention to detail, and even fine art.
Do take a look at this site. A super talented craftsman, now retired. I hope that his website remains on line for a while as inspiration to others...

Wieland der Schmied

http://www.wieland-der-schmied.de/en/


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## heimlaga

In my oppinion iron and steel are the best metal to start with as it's cheap and useful for many purposes.

Do you have somewhere in the yard where he can have sparks flying without any problem?

I was 14 or 15 when I first started to try some blackmithing at home. 
Hovever the tools i could improvice wasn't good enough and I had no money for proper tools so I got frustrated and quit. However I always bought cheap secondhand blackmith's tools when I could find them (they are very expensive and hard to find in Finland compared to the UK) and at age 32 I had a proper set of the most important tools and got back into blacksmithing. 
If you can find a cheap secondhand anvil and a cheap portable forge of some sort and a few secondhand tongs I rekon blacksmithing would be an ideal start for a boy of his age.

Welding and fabrication might be another route to go.
At age 15 I rekon that he is mature enough to weld and use an angle grinder. A secondhand DC stick welder of good quality doesn't cost much and nether does a big and a small angle grinder and a vice. 
I got into welding at age 22 or thereabout but if I had started earlier it had been easier. Several of my friends started at age 15 or 16.

Whatever route you together decide on make sure that he learns to work in a safe way right from the beginning. A cotton overall and a face shield and ear muffs and heavy leather welder's gloves and a welder's leather apron are very important. Synthetic overalls are flammable and consequently dangerous.


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## Chris152

Araldite ordered! The Schmied site is great - he needs to spend a little time designing the handle so we'll be looking through it carefully. And for sure, we won't be doing any of this stuff without full-on H&S measures!

We'll update soon, I hope...

Thanks, C


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## sunnybob

a mantra for blade working. repeat constantly;
KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY FROM THE BLADE,
AND YOU WILL NEVER NEED FIRST AID.

Always been mildly interested in knives, had a green river at age 15, and a few are always laying around, but never actually made my own.

However, I have combined the two interests now, 8) 
http://www.pbase.com/john_cooper/image/166993024


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## Chris152

Seem to be struggling with the tang! We got one handle block on dry fit, but I noticed the blade and handle weren't in alignment properly. So I made a taller fence for the drill press and we did another, with the hole perfectly aligned. Then I realised that, as we're tapping/ hitting the handle block onto the tang, the tang bends. Two questions:

1. Is this a weak tang or would that seem pretty normal? Is full tang stronger (thinking about the next one)?

2. How tight should the fit be? At the moment it's very tight (we used a 4mm drill bit and the tang is just less than that). 

Thanks

C


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## Rorschach

Full tang is stronger yes, but in reality breaking a tang is rare and only happens if you are abusing the knife.

Stick tangs are soft so they can be drilled for a retaining pin or for long stick tangs, peened over at the end of the block in tradition scandi style.

Don't worry about getting a super tight fit, the epoxy will fill the gaps, you just want to avoid a massive hole as it takes loads of epoxy to fill it properly.


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## Chris152

Rorschach":3jbsmawy said:


> Full tang is stronger yes, but in reality breaking a tang is rare and only happens if you are abusing the knife.
> 
> Stick tangs are soft so they can be drilled for a retaining pin or for long stick tangs, peened over at the end of the block in tradition scandi style.
> 
> Don't worry about getting a super tight fit, the epoxy will fill the gaps, you just want to avoid a massive hole as it takes loads of epoxy to fill it properly.


Thanks Rorschach - really helpful. 

In my efforts to marginally enlarge the hole with a Lidl chisel, I snapped it in half (it got stuck and I tried to wobble it out). We'll do another handle and this time I'll use a larger drill bit. 
c


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## --Tom--

If you take a jigsaw blade and glue it into handle before grinding the back to taper down towards the tip you get an effective and cheap broach for adjusting the slot.

There is an easier way than drilling small holes though that I posted on the knife forums about 8 years ago. I’ll try and dig it out.


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## Chris152

Well, he's got this far





I think the handle's a bit long for the blade but he's happy with it like that. I rough cut the shape on a bandsaw and he shaped it with a rasp and then a sanding drum attachment for the drill press, then just by hand with higher grit papers.

The wood's oak - any suggestions what finish he should use? It'd be nice to keep the rays visible but to darken the handle a little. We tried clear, light brown and dark brown paste wax, sanding sealer, and boiled linseed oil on oak scraps. The only one he really liked was light brown paste wax, but is that ok to use? It says on the tin all sorts about not getting on your hands?!
Also, while sanding he's scratched the brass thing - how can he polish that out?

Many thanks

Chris


----------



## sunnybob

brass thing..... thats a cracker that is. =D> =D> 
Its a guard. Although its a little small in relation to the handle curve.
The sole reason for a guard is to stop your hand sliding down the blade when stabbing and thus cutting your own fingers off. The handle is further out than the guard so the hand could slip straight past the guard.

The best way to polish brass is with wire wool in one direction only, then solvol autosol. Be careful not to get it on the oak, it will darken. Use masking tape.

A handle should fit the hand. A handle thats too small is very dangerous to the weilder. If you want symmetry, make the blade bigger.
a nice knife, something to keep and be proud of.


----------



## Rorschach

That's a great start!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_no ... +mccreight

Is a good book if you can find it at a reasonable price. McCreight is a brilliant all round metalworker and silversmith.


----------



## Chris152

sunnybob":tuwr1ppn said:


> brass thing..... thats a cracker that is. =D> =D>
> Its a guard. Although its a little small in relation to the handle curve.
> The sole reason for a guard is to stop your hand sliding down the blade when stabbing and thus cutting your own fingers off. The handle is further out than the guard so the hand could slip straight past the guard.
> 
> The best way to polish brass is with wire wool in one direction only, then solvol autosol. Be careful not to get it on the oak, it will darken. Use masking tape.
> 
> A handle should fit the hand. A handle thats too small is very dangerous to the weilder. If you want symmetry, make the blade bigger.
> a nice knife, something to keep and be proud of.



Oh dear, had no idea I was encouraging him to make something to lacerate his fingers! Here's mark II




Hopefully he won't be doing any stabbing but best get these things right... 
The handle fits his hand well, so all good there. 



phil.p":tuwr1ppn said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=custom+knifemaking+tim+mccreight
> 
> Is a good book if you can find it at a reasonable price. McCreight is a brilliant all round metalworker and silversmith.


That's not so expensive if he's still wanting to make more after this one. 
Have to say, it's great to see him in the garage making instead of loafing around looking at his phone...

Thanks all,
c


----------



## novocaine

only posting this to annoy Bob. 
it's not a guard, it's a bolster, I'll let you have quillon if you really must. a sword has a guard, it's the bit that goes across your knuckles.  (genuinely joking here, call it what ever you want, I rather like brass thing)

anyways, nice looking bit of work there, it's a bowie "ish" blade, so a shorter handle tends to be favored. get what you have glued on then figure out where it balances (just behind the GUARD is typical on a shorter bladed clip point), you might need to trim the length down a bit, a back heavy knife is a bit dangerous as it want's to fail bum down. tape a bit of something along the blade edge and mask of the blade when you start working it with it all together. 
the GUARD will most likely be laquered, so be careful with the wire wool, you might find yourself having to remove it before it polishes up. 

a partial tang is fairly common on this style of knife, it's a bit of a pain to work with but at least it's soft.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

According to McCreight, it's a guard. A bolster is a reinforcement flush with the handle.




Sorry about the poor picture.


----------



## novocaine

except this is flush with the handle on the back side of the blade, so it's a bolster with a quillon.  

now how do you sharpen it?


----------



## sunnybob

potayto potahto, tomayto tomahto, US english, UK english.
aint gettin into this bun fight :roll: :roll: =D> 

Whatever you want to call it, it has to stop the fingers sliding into the blade edge. 8)


----------



## novocaine

Bowie's a fighting knife, it's there to stop other knifes sliding in to your hand too.  

note to chris, don't let the little shaver go fighting with a knife. 

now to make some chips with that potato. 

EDIT: also, sorry for being a troll.


----------



## Chris152

novocaine":1hhhb7tv said:


> get what you have glued on then figure out where it balances (just behind the GUARD is typical on a shorter bladed clip point), you might need to trim the length down a bit, a back heavy knife is a bit dangerous as it want's to fail bum down.


Sounds good - tbh, the back looks too thick/ heavy now we've taken that lower bump off the front, just before the brass thingy. 
And no worries novocaine, the knife's for use when we're together, camping fishing and all that. and prepping potatoes, obviously... 

But - what about a finish for the oak?! What's generally best for knife handles - oil, wax, I'm assuming 'unnatural' finishes are no good/ uncomfortable?


----------



## AES

As said before Chris, personally I know nothing whatever about knives. But I think "the boy" deserves a pat on the back. Just as you say, he's made "something" and while the experts may well find some areas which could use improvement (which is normal for any beginner at anything), the fact is he's made something entirely usable, all "with his own hands" - just as you say, a LOT better than staring at smart phones all day! Well done that (young) man - and well done to you too for encouraging and supporting him. =D> I wonder how many of his class mates could do so well?

About the finish on the handle, no idea, sorry.


----------



## novocaine

Im a big fan of beeswax. Which is a new skill for him to make too. 

What hes made there is a damn sight nicer than what i did to a bowie. Ill take a piccy later so he gets to feel good about it. Lol


----------



## novocaine

Here you go, something to help him realise just what a nice job he's done. I really really needed to get a handle on it, didn't have enough oak (yep I used oak too) so it's a pair of scales with a beech centre over a short partial tang just like yours. I removed the brass thingy because I didn't like it.  
I'm not overly keen on it, it does what I need (it's my garden knife) but I find the blade of a bowie to heavy/thick for most camping purposes so take a Whitby drop point instead.



20180727_062736 by David Rees, on Flickr


----------



## Chris152

novocaine":3jrd969u said:


> Im a big fan of beeswax. Which is a new skill for him to make too.
> 
> What hes made there is a damn sight nicer than what i did to a bowie. Ill take a piccy later so he gets to feel good about it. Lol


Ha, message passed on! I've never made a beeswax polish but remember many years ago using a solid block to put a finish on a piece of whittling when bored on holiday - I thought then it made a nice finish. Going to google beeswax polish...


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## novocaine

Beeswax is pretty easy to make, a chunk of wax from ebay (hobbycraft sell it too or look for a local beekeeper like I did), melt it in a pan then 1 to 1 with white spirit in the pan, stir it a bit, then let cool a little before pouring off. as your doing this with the young shaver do it over a banmarie. put it in a jar and put an put the bit of rag you are going to us to wipe it on to stuff on top. I make about 50grams at a time and it lasts me a good few months (25g of wax is about a quarter of the blocks I get). 

you can adjust the recipe between batches till you get somewhere round how you like it. 

a quick google shows up the following if you can't get it local (it's good to support local if you can)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01AT6JPTG/ ... 8753996314

if you


----------



## Chris152

It's been a while since I posted in this thread - the boy's still loving working with metal in school, and seems to have built an all-metal desk lamp from scratch since we finished that knife handle (we did make up our own beeswax polish as per advice, but I think we made it too thin, didn't really add much to the wood and then he started using it, so finish of the handle slipped down the list of priorities). I'll post a pic of the lamp as soon as he remembers to take one after half term.

Anyway, my garage is now pretty empty as I've moved my wood stuff elsewhere and he's on about getting a metal lathe in there. I know this is an incredibly vague question, but what's a good lathe for him/ us to start on? Something simple and safe (apparently the ones in school have a couple of guards that have to be in place before the lathe will work - is that standard?). I've only looked at the Axminster site (seemed pretty £££ to me, but I guess that's what metal lathes are?) so have little idea, and only this morning discovered the principle of how a metal lathe works by watching a video on youtube. So no idea, really - he clearly knows more than me. 

Do modern/ new lathes add much safety or ease over older ones? Where should I start looking? Money's an issue, in that I don't want to spend more than I have to - but at the same time I don't want something we'll have to do much (/any) work to get going properly.

Any thoughts very much appreciated. 
Chris


----------



## Lazurus

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/

Have a look at the above forum, everything from mig, tig, plasma lathes, metal forming materials to jokes and stuff. A really helpful and friendly forum


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## Trevanion

Turning is not a cheap hobby, in metal or wood! :lol:

I would personally say you need to be looking at something like an Old Myford or Boxford lathe, anything bigger and heavier is a hell of a headache to move and will more than likely be 3-phase (Assuming you only have a single phase supply at home) anything smaller is just a toy really. So long as the boy has got his head screwed on properly when he's using the lathe there isn't much to go wrong, make sure work is secure in the machine, keep hands away from the chuck... etc. If guarding is a concern they can probably be had 

I think you could easily spend about £1000 on a good secondhand lathe in single phase such as a Myford Super 7, I wouldn't even bother looking at the newer Axminster (or any other) ones as they are not quality made like the old stuff was, to reach the same quality you would have to spend tens of thousands. Then there's tooling to be bought if your machine doesn't come with any and which would set you back some more, plus then he would need proper measuring gear like vernier calipers and micrometers for accurate work.

It's worth encouraging the boy, I wouldn't be a joiner today if I hadn't had the encouragement and support from my parents when I showed an interest in it.


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## sunnybob

For a 15 year old boy to learn on, and to be as cheap and portable as possible, this is all you need
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hobbymat-Lat ... :rk:4f:0
It even has screw cut forward and reverse traverse.

No special electrics required, and as and when you want to upgrade you can sell it for what you paid for it.

I had one untill last year, only sold it because I needed space for more woodworking machinery.


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## Rorschach

Buy secondhand and you will nearly always get your money back.

A Myford would be lovely and will hold/increase it's value if you take care of it.


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## Chris152

Ok, that's really helpful fellas - I've been looking on ebay etc and not had a clue what I'm looking at, and now have a better idea. I'll keep my eyes open for a used one and see what comes up near me. 

Tbh I don't even know what he'd want to make on a metal lathe and after pressing him last night, I'm not so sure he does (he did name some small items, but not sure how long that'd keep him going) - he just seems to like the process, which I definitely want to encourage. (His granddad was a machinist and worked for BSA for many years, maybe it runs in the blood...) 

Is a metal lathe generally an end in itself, or is it just one link in the process of making in metal? I got a wood lathe a year ago and love the fact that once you have it, extraction and tools, you can do so much without buying more gear. Or is it the start of a slippery slope that leads to more and more equipment?! Welders seem cheap and cheerful by comparison and I have lots of ideas of things I (oh, and he) could try with one of those.


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## Harbo

I started off with a S/H Unimat which I’ve still got.

Amazing what you can make on such a tiny lathe and a great tool to learn on







Warco lathes are good and come in all sorts of sizes.

Rod


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## sunnybob

after a lathe, comes a milling machine (theres one attached in the picture above). Then a welding set (dont bother with arc, its so old fashioned) Then a decent large pillar drill, then a surface grinder, then a hot forge, and then... and then... #-o #-o :roll:


----------



## Chris152

That's my worry Bob - "I've turned a nut and bolt, now what do I build the rest of the car/ bike/ boat with?"

I think one of the small and relatively cheap lathes linked to above might be a good place to start - used with a resale value, if it becomes restrictive and needs upgrading. But there's no rush, GCSEs are looming and he needs to get his head into some books. 

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts - I did do some searching around the net but find metal a bit of a mystery. It's a bit hard, heavy and sharp, isn't it?


----------



## sunnybob

I've come from the exact opposite direction :shock: 
Hot forge bending mild steel pipe as a 15 year old apprentice, working with metal and machines all my life, and building my own custom motorcycles as a hobby.
Only started playing with wood when I retired 4 years ago .
But the secret of life is to never stop learning. 8) 8)


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## Chris152

sunnybob":8z52cg5n said:


> But the secret of life is to never stop learning.



Couldn't agree more - I think it's one of the most important things to remember as we get older. 

Out of interest, would a Myford Super Seven (or similar) hold its value and sell on again easily in future? (I'm assuming the former, but wonder if they sit around for years in the for sale pages.) Also, I can see they're pretty complex things but could a complete newbie check one over and be confident it's probably ok?


----------



## Trevanion

Chris152":1cfdmzge said:


> Out of interest, would a Myford Super Seven (or similar) hold its value and sell on again easily in future?



If anything they don't stop going up in value, they seem to go up in price every year. Hobbyists and the old chaps in small sheds love them.



Chris152":1cfdmzge said:


> Also, I can see they're pretty complex things but could a complete newbie check one over and be confident it's probably ok?



They're complex to a beginner but they also aren't complex as far as Lathes go, it's all nuts and bolts holding it together at the end of the day. Geoffrey Crocker on youtube did a very good series on restoring one a couple of years back and bringing it up to like new condition, worth a watch just to see how these things work and it will give you some pointers on what to look for when you get to buying one.

[youtube]DtKutRzSf0U[/youtube]


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## Chris152

That's brilliant Trevanion - thanks so much. Looks like we've got some viewing to do!


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## Rorschach

A Super 7 will certainly hold it's value and possibly increase in value if taken care of. 

They are pricey and an investment, but if you keep in mind that you won't lose money in the long term it's really not that bad. The main bonus is that spares and extras are easily available (though still pricey) and there is a lot of good info out there as well.

Capable little machines, I make my living on one I bought for £1000, could likely sell it for at least as much now. I have about £1500 in extras and tools, I could probably get about £500-1000 for those sold separately so very little loss. In the 10 years I have owned it I have probably made £150k worth of products on it, so it's certainly paid for itself.


----------



## Chris152

Thanks Rorschach, really helpful - in a couple of years he could be off living somewhere far away and it'd probably be time to sell it on, if we do go ahead and buy one - unless I've got hooked on it too! #-o


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## novocaine

If the Myford is a bit on the steep side it's worth looking out for a Boxford AUD or VUD. Rock solid little (ish) lathe that a lot of schools had in them, which means they are still just about bountiful and normally have very little use on them. 

No you can't have mine.  

A Lathe is said to be the only machine tool that can make itself, get a horizontal slide and it will mill too, an indexing head on the cross slide and you can cut gears, with a screw cutting lathe you can do as the name suggests. the world is limitless and it's a tool I genuinely like owning, one that I try to find jobs just so I can use it.


----------



## Chris152

novocaine":ou7mbyoc said:


> No you can't have mine.


  

Thanks novocaine, that's another to keep my eyes peeled for. 
I was thinking about bidding on a Myford that sold this morning - it went for £1200 plus tho. And for sure, if I got one now he'd obsess over it rather than revising for the upcoming exams, so probably a blessing in disguise.


----------



## Robbo3

I have a Sieg 7 x 14 commonly called the cheap Chinese metal lathe. I don't have either the knowledge or the skill to use it properly but it's a capable machine within its limitations. Value for money.
Just look at the number of reviews on Youtube, especially the one by This Old Tony
- https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... nese+lathe


----------



## thenormynuts

I don't know your budget but you can get a decent MIG welder for around £100. Not the cheapest chinese made ones either, just a low amperage one from a reliable manufacturer. This is worth the investment as they last a number of years and usually have a decent warranty. Well worth the investment IMO.


----------



## Chris152

Well, he's not mentioned lathes in a while so I'm keeping quiet.







In the meantime this is the lamp he recently made in school. He used the lathe to turn down the base to width, to bore into the shade to make the shade cap fit, to turn a bolt to fit the hole on the base and the ends of the arms to the correct length and shape; the milling machine to shape the bracket holding the upright, and where the two arms connect; and used emery cloth and then polished on the buffing machine. Then he did the electrics which was just a bit of soldering, apparently.

Proud dad, but full credit to his teacher and the school for helping him learn these skills!

ps that philips screw's coming off to be replaced with slotted one as soon as it gets home.


----------



## MusicMan

The most basic metalworking tool is the file. That would be a good start. Not that I'm suggesting he takes a lump of brass and files a cube as the apprentices used to do.

I didn't do that, but I did file an accurate mitre gauge slot for a table saw that I started making (and failed to complete!),

Keith


----------



## Trevanion

Nice to see a school encouraging it!

My D.T. teacher told me that I'd never get far in life with woodworking, great encouragement...


----------



## sunnybob

Thats more than my school ever got me to do in metalwork, and I was quite good.
Safety note here though, with an all metal lamp you need to check that "bit of soldering" wiring pretty well and make sure there is a VERY GOOD earth on it.
:shock: :shock: 
=D> =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Chris152

sunnybob":1dy73i7d said:


> Safety note here though, with an all metal lamp you need to check that "bit of soldering" wiring pretty well and make sure there is a VERY GOOD earth on it.
> :shock: :shock:
> =D> =D> =D> =D>


 I hadn't thought of that! Hopefully the school will have it checked and tested - if not, I'll be sure to get a sparky on the case. I'll point it out to him and see if it's been talked about - all good learning.

update - turns out it has 2 x LED bulbs powered by a battery! Can't say I blame the school for not wanting the responsibility of sending kids home with dodgy electrical appliances...


----------



## Rorschach

RE: earthing, I doubt a school would be making mains powered projects, I would assume it is battery powered.


----------



## Chris152

Rorschach":3p8p3g1o said:


> RE: earthing, I doubt a school would be making mains powered projects, I would assume it is battery powered.


Spot on - I'd just updated my last post!


----------



## J-G

Chris152":3qbc5hin said:


> ps that philips screw's coming off to be replaced with slotted one as soon as it gets home.



First - I suspect that the screw recess will be PoziDriv not Philips (but that's just pedantic)

Second - I do hope you mean that the Slotted one will be replaced with a Pozi recessed one - - - or better still a Hexagon socket button head.


----------



## Chris152

J-G":16wg4886 said:


> Chris152":16wg4886 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ps that philips screw's coming off to be replaced with slotted one as soon as it gets home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First - I suspect that the screw recess will be PoziDriv not Philips (but that's just pedantic)
> 
> Second - I do hope you mean that the Slotted one will be replaced with a Pozi recessed one - - - or better still a Hexagon socket button head.
Click to expand...


First - no idea!
Second - I think the slotted one looks better, more simple - tho a hex socket button (I had to look that up online) would look good. But is there a reason beyond the way it looks?


----------



## J-G

Chris152":1d4v5ku6 said:


> First - no idea!


The difference is subtle but essentially the Pozi Recess has an extra 'nick' between the 'cross' and is 'tighter' - see the attached image. _(note that in this particular image, PoziDriv is incorrectly spelled)_


Chris152":1d4v5ku6 said:


> Second - I think the slotted one looks better, more simple - tho a hex socket button (I had to look that up online) would look good. But is there a reason beyond the way it looks?


Yes. - slotted head screws are prone to damage both to the slot itself and the surrounding components due to screwdriver slippage. 
I now use Hexagon Socket almost exclusively (they used to be called 'Allen Head') except for wood-screws where I use PoziDriv or SupaDriv.


----------



## novocaine

The screw doesn't matter, the only reason to change is for aesthetics, but yes, that is a Pz2. 

I would send him back to school with it though with a note requesting they make a saddle washer for it so the screw isn't clamping on the round or recess the screw (or recess the screw in the saddle and fit a little cap on it to hide the screw). At which point a shallow cap head would look nicer.

He's done really well there, looks good and better than most will make in a year at school. he couldn't make it 240v with that design unless he wants a cable flapping about so a torch is as good as anything.


----------



## J-G

Whilst I agree with Novocaine that the current design has a flaw with regard to clamping, I would recommend a simple extra flat milled on the upright. I would also suggest a shake-proof washer under the screw-head would be beneficial.

I case you (Chris) don't know what a 'Saddle Washer' is I've attached a drawing showing the three options. The Saddle Washer is shown in red.


----------



## Chris152

Thanks fellas, I'll get him to have a read and see what he thinks. I agree that the screw onto the rounded surface doesn't look right - tho changing it might have to wait til after the exams are done, when he brings it here. Obviously, we might be needing some new kit if we're to sort it at home... :?


----------



## J-G

Chris152":32x6efly said:


> Obviously, we might be needing some new kit if we're to sort it at home... :?



The 'MIlled Flat' option doesn't have to be 'Milled' - it could easily be done with a file.


----------



## AES

Sorry, absence from the Forum for the last few weeks has made any comment I make now entirely superfluous - EXCEPT to ask you to pass on to "the lad" a sincere well done mate! Good work and something to treasure as the years go by.


----------



## Chris152

Thank you AES - comments passed on and gratefully received!

We're planning a trip to Makers Central after I saw the thread in AOB, he's pretty excited as he knows some of the YouTubers there. But it got me wondering. 

It seems to me (knowing next to nothing) that at one extreme, you get metalworkers making one-off pieces (we watched the video of a fella making a metal safe, linked to on UKW, in wonder - can't remember what he was called); and at the other extreme you might have someone operating a computer that controls a milling machine (for example) making items on an industrial scale. I'm guessing that the one-off pieces route is like art - you have to be the best to make a living at it; and the industrial route follows a relatively clearly established and demanding education that allows you to control the computer as well as knowing the milling machine - and you end up making what your employer/ client needs made. 

Do people make a decent living between these two poles? If so, who are they and what do they do? Maybe there are far too many answers, I'm just trying to get my head around the possible career directions and at the moment have no idea what comes between the two.


----------



## AES

Chris, it's purely guess work on my part (whatever I do is "only" a hobby and I doubt if it even pays its own costs), but I guess that just like I did when I ran my own company before I retired, you've got to find a special niche (in my case, nothing whatever to do with making stuff though).

But earlier in this thread when you were asking about lathes, someone (I forget who, sorry) said he made a good turnover (not sure about profit) making items in batches on a Myford. So it must be possible, but again guessing, I would think an awful lot depends on having the right contacts to start off with.

OTOH you read plenty of posts here from woodworkers who find it extremely difficult if not impossible to run a profitable business by making (any?)thing/s out of wood. In my own case I just like to make the odd toy (mainly one-offs - I hate the idea of any form of batch/mass production - that's not why I retired)! But when I take a reasonable look at what it costs me (materials+ time for a moderate "wage") to make a toy then compare it with something similar in our Aldis and Lidls over here, there's no way I could get down to those prices - and as said, I don't even want to try.

In short I guess it depends on A) your approach to the whole business of making stuff; B) if you can find some sort of niche idea/product; and C) what you can organize/build up in the way of contacts. 

That's my own take, but I'm sure others here will have other ideas and experiences.

Good luck anyway.


----------



## Trevanion

Chris152":283997g8 said:


> Do people make a decent living between these two poles? If so, who are they and what do they do? Maybe there are far too many answers, I'm just trying to get my head around the possible career directions and at the moment have no idea what comes between the two.




There are FAR too many answers! :lol: 

I imagine if you look around your local area on the industrial estates and even in the most unlikely places such as farms you will find people grafting away somewhere between the two poles. 

A friend of mine runs a precision CNC engineering and motorsport business out of a a literal farm shed, another friend runs a specialist aluminium/stainless fabrication workshop out in the sticks, we also have a very good nut and bolt shop / engineering firm on the local industrial estate which if I remember correctly hasn't got any CNC machines and is all done the good ol' fashioned way. We do still have the local MOD base which I THINK takes some kids on but it's all very top secret stuff going on in there :roll: That's not even the tip of the iceberg really!

So long as there's farmers, things will be broken and need fixing :lol:


----------



## Chris152

Yep, I can see that question was far too vague. Thanks for the gentle pointer! Ok, I was thinking job titles/ roles, post A-level that would lead to more education/ training (apprenticeship/ university/ whatever). I have done searches online but think I'm not getting a sense of the range of options. Maybe that's still to vague/ broad to list - can anyone point me to a website that goes through options? 

AES - in my web surfing I found a site in the US (https://study.com/articles/Be_a_Craftsm ... ments.html) with a section called 'Become a Craftsman' - it includes the following info on woodworking:
Employment Outlook and Salary Information
'According to the U.S. Bureau of Labors Statistics (BLS) in 2015, woodworkers earned an annual median salary of $28,990, while machinists earned $40,550 and tool and die makers brought home $50,290. The BLS predicts that the job outlook for woodworkers will be a 1% decline in job growth from 2014-2024. Employment for machinists was expected to expand by 10%, and jobs for tool and die makers were expected to decrease by 13%, according to the BLS.'
I guess it's pretty much the same here.


----------



## AES

Good morning Chris.

Sorry to say that I cannot answer with any certainty re the web site you found. What that site says SOUNDS logical to me, BUT as someone who A) left UK as a resident almost 40 years ago, B) hasn't worked as an employee of any UK company since 1990, and C) has only ever worked in aviation; I really cannot answer with any definite info, sorry.

But as said, it SOUNDS logical to say that toolmakers are the most highly skilled and therefore are likely to earn the most. BTW, not wanting to teach Granny to suck eggs, but if you didn't already know, don't let the term "tool" make you think only of the spanner or drill that you hold in your hands.

"Jigs and Tools" are highly specialised (and often very expensive) items ranging from huge "lumps of metal" that are, for example, used in press machines to stamp out everything from tin ash trays to large car body parts; used to hold large lumps of structure together while they're being built and repaired and modified (e.g. aeroplane wings and fuselages); right down to very high precision items used to align parts while being assembled and stripped for build and servicing (e.g. anything from watches to aero engines).

Someone has to design and often make all those highly specialised items and that's often the tool maker.

As an example, a good friend of mine in the local model aero club was a self-employed tool maker who, until he died, was rushed off his feet designing and making the injection moulding tools for the plastic mobile phone casings. How he, as a single man business working from his cellar (houses here are generally larger than in UK) came on to such work I don't know (no doubt "contacts"), but I do know he was a time-served tool maker in a high-precision Swiss mech engineering company. But judging by his life style he was doing very well indeed thank you very much!

For "the lad" I'd be very much in favour of him going for A levels, but for Uni, sorry but based on what I've seen of a number of grads I've worked with, I have my doubts.

IF he wants to go the "practical/productive route" that is. Based on my own experience, an apprenticeship such as I had (RAF) or a couple of mates of mine that I worked closely with had (one at what was then the BEA airline, the other BOAC airline - both now British Airways of course) would be a better route because both academic and practical work are covered in such apprenticeships - BUT as said above, my experience of the UK is well out of date now.

Trevanion is IMO spot on when he says above that there are always people who need to get broken stuff fixed, but how "the lad" gets a start in such work these days I just don't know, sorry.

But from all you've said, it sounds like his school and teacher/s are really good, so I'm sure you've spoken to them already?

Anyway, best of luck to him, he's clearly well off along the road to success and I'm sure he'll find a good way to build on that.


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## Chris152

Thanks for such a helpful reply, AES. I think the biggest struggle we're having here is my complete ignorance of the field. I came through the fine arts route and this is all pretty alien to me. As for 'tool maker', it turns out that's what my dad was (I thought he was a machinist) - and I had no idea how diverse it is, I did think it was just making tools. He did an apprenticeship, worked in the navy and then into the world of machine tools. 
We read through your reply together and it turns out the boy's more focused than I realised - he's telling me he wants to become a mechanical engineer, working with engines and structures (I'm assuming that's the sort of thing you mean when you refer to aeroplane wings and fuselages, and so on). The Wikipedia entry on 'Mechanical engineering' opened my eyes! Advice from school has been helpful - they suggested an apprenticeship which, to my understanding can involve very different things depending on where you do it and what your potential is. Early days for the specific route he might take or exactly where it might lead, but at least I'm getting a better understanding of what might be involved! 
Thanks again, Chris.


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## AES

Glad to be of help Chris, and "the lad" deserves encouragement from anyone able to offer it. 

As said previously I just have no idea of what the current UK situation but I do listen to BBC Radio 4 and understand that the present Govt are indeed pushing apprenticeships. If the school suggest this then I'm sure they must be available these days. Most important (IMO) is that both the right sort of academic work (directly relevant to the industry) is covered alongside practical work directly aligned to the industry the apprenticeship covers - to give a silly example, there's not a lot of point in learning how to make structures out of riveted aluminium sheet if you're going to be handling welded steel plates for building ships!! 

And to answer your question above, by "structures" I was indeed referring to the "bits of bent ali" that go together to build the framework of an aeroplane - just as an example again.

But let's not get bogged down in the detail at this early stage. The school should be able to find details of available apprenticeships which will give a good outline of the sort of work done/products which the company offering the apprenticeship produces, allowing him to make a good choice which suits him.

But I did hear on BBC4 that competition for apprenticeship places is quite keen, so the young man does need to have good school exam results - "O" & "A" Levels (or whatever they're called these days).

Apart from wishing him all the best I should bow out of this now 'cos as said before, my "knowledge" of what's happening in UK these days is terribly out of date.

All the best.


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## Chris152

Thanks again, AES. As I said before, I think the weak link in understanding the possibilities is me. And there's no doubt, focus on exam results is the key at the moment! C


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## novocaine

get good grades and the world is his. no comment about this being right or wrong. 

If he wants to be on the tools then machinist, tool maker or technician is a good place to be, all of which are apprenticeships. 
He wont make a ton and he'll slog it out everyday but I'll put money on it that he enjoys it. 
if wants to be a bit on the machines but stand a chance of making some other money, mechanical engineer is a good way to go, that means uni. 

I took the latter option. worked out ok although I'm now in a desk job and don't get to play in workshops very much at all I do get to have the money to play with a few bits and bobs.


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## heimlaga

I have plenty of friends and relatives and aquintaces who are welders or machinists and industrial manintainence men. Even the odd toolmaker.
This is absolutely not a field where you make plenty of money quick but you are exceptionally likely to get a decent living wage for a decent job and reach retirement with all significant parts of your body in functional order. As there are a huge number of speciality trades within the general field and the borders between the specialities tend to be very blurry theese people also tend to find new jobs when the old job disappeares.
That is as good a job as anyone can wish for in our time. Way better than being an unemployed academic or a carpenter with a broken back or an underpaid shop assistant living on benefits.

In my oppinion your lad is now at the age when one should get started. 
I learneded forging at his age. Turning and welding are also suitable activities.
Contrary to the others I rekon stick welding to be a good starting point. A good direct current stick welder and a couple of angle grinders and a drill press aren't too expensive.
In a few years he will be skilled enough to rebuild any old worn out lathe by himself.

If he is seriously into metalwork he will certainly fetch his tools as soon as he is living somewhere with room for them. If you can store his tools for a few years there is no need to sell them. I still use many of the tools I bought or made as a teenager.


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## Chris152

Anyone built a remote control car from scratch? I've no idea what's involved, but he wants to have a go at it, making all he can, buying parts as necessary. I think it'll be a good thing for him to do - now doing Maths, Physics and Product Design and very clear he wants to get into automotive engineering, so it'd give him a chance to try stuff out in practice. He's still determined to work in metal rather than wood. #-o 
Does anyone have any advice on where he should start - any particular websites/ books you could recommend? 
Many thanks,
C

ps I saw one of these today for £200, I think it's been used for demos, seems cheap but could it be any good? Not quite the old British built models recommended above, but hey ho!
https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-m ... the-505100


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## Ttrees

There is numerous versions of what looks to be the same as those lathes coming in from the east
Search on youtube for "minilathe" or chinese lathe ect.
They have plastic gears, but you can probably buy metal ones.
There is much info on the few videos I watched.
Tom


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## MusicMan

The 'Workshop Practice' series of books on Amazon are a good start.


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## --Tom--

I’ve just started an NVQ in welding and fabrication at coleg gwent in Newport. 6-9 every Monday evening with a very well kitted out workshop. First week was this week so not much missed if he wanted to sign up ( Newport isn’t too far from Cowbridge- I get the train from Cardiff to Newport then cycle along the river so doesn’t “need” a car)

I’m really enjoying it so far and the tutors are really knowledgeable.


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## Chris152

Thanks all.
Ttrees - the problem is that I haven't a clue if they're any good for that price/ any good at all. The reviews on the site suggest it's fine but just wondered if anyone had used it or any from that series.
MusicMan - I'll check them out. [edit - they look really good from what I can tell online, and not expensive. thanks!]
Tom - Newport's a tricky one from here unless you'r driving - bus to the train station in Cardiff adds lots of time, but I'll take a look at Bridgend to see if they do the same. Great idea. [edit - your course is for 19+ years old, and Bridgend doesn't do one similar. Dang!]


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## Chris152

Sorted on kit - he's asked and can use the equipment in school so long as there's a teacher in the workshop. That'll save a few ££s  I've also found a couple of forums dealing with RC and model engineering-related matters, so hopefully he'll get started soon. He's also picking apart an old rc car he has to see what's what. (hammer)


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## novocaine

Start simple. Look at some thing like a mardave stock or mini for inspiration. 
Basically a plank of grp with some bits bolted to it. Real easy and he can get to grips with electronics wothout all the other hassles. Then he can move on up to something with suspension. Using the mardave platform will let him do that in increments too. 
Might be worth introducing him to cad (autodesk has a free version of autocad for students so he should qualify) i can run you through some basics but im running an old version so somethings will be different. Id say get him drawing on paper as well, pick him up a cheap drawing board and a square. This will be incredibly useful skills for him to work in any industry as a good engineer. He can then research suspension (4 bar linkage, trailing arm and mcfesson being a good place to start) and then have a go designing his own. There are apps online that he can put his design in and simulate how it moves (or cardboard aided design).


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## Dalboy

Chris how about getting him to make a simple stationary steam engine to start with this will allow him to get the hang of the machines at school. 
THIS site has some free plans and even some IC engines which would be interesting.
I see you found your way to the model engineering site


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## Trevanion

Dalboy":ru6v5r6o said:


> Chris how about getting him to make a simple stationary steam engine to start with this will allow him to get the hang of the machines at school.



I think that's a really good way of getting a start into beginners engineering, not as exciting as an RC car but has plenty of challenges and exact tolerances to be met. It's a slippery slope though as we've seen with Fred Dibnah and I'm not sure if Chris would want a full-sized traction engine or steam roller on his driveway :lol:


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## Chris152

Thanks fellas - I'll get him to read through these as soon as he (eventually) gets up this morning. 
My prediction is that he'll go for the idea of starting with a really simple design just to get something that works and to understand the basics. And it sounds like something we could get on with at home, in large part. He's keen to work to 1:8 scale, so reckon it'd be best to buy any parts that'll need buying to a size that will work to that scale for the 'prototype' and re-use them?
I love those old steam engines, and we used to go to a track not far away when they were little to be towed around by one (a train setup), but he's now obsessed with cars and my feeling is that interest will get him through the build whereas a steam engine might end up half finished? And as Trevanion points out, could lead all over the shop - next thing it'll be converting my van to steam, much rather he figured a way to fit an electric motor 
Definitely keen to get him going on cad - I guess they'll be doing that in school, but I was thinking to get him designing the next surfboard we plan to build. They have cnc in school so it may be possible to get him to cut the ribs, which was boring to do on the bandsaw and probably far less accurate. But that's something else. We'll download autodesk and have a play with that, no doubt more questions will follow!


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## novocaine

Give me a couple of days and ill try to pull out some engineering plans for him to go over of a simple rc car design. He can then modify them as he wants and maybe build some of the parts from plastic with simple hand tools (funny enough wood and plastic can be worked in a similar way) talk to him about a simple aluminium plate chassis (grp would be better as it provides some flex) he can cut with a saw and learn about marking out on. Will also teach him a bit about tolerences.


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## Trevanion

You should combine his interest in metal and your interest in wood.


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## Chris152

That would be brilliant if you can find them, novocaine. Thank you.
Trevanion - that's a thing of beauty! I remember when I started learning about aesthetics and art, having a chat with my dad about it and he told me that he found beauty in precision machining, I didn't really know what he was talking about then. But I sort of do now, and my boy seems to have inherited his granddad's passion - he actually gets excited about a well-made nut and bolt and will fiddle with them endlessly. I'd imagine there's a huge amount of work in that plane and again, not so sure it'd maintain his enthusiasm without the intention to use it - and I'm not sure the fact I'd use it would quite get him through the build! We'll see...


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## Dibs-h

Hi Chris,

A bit late to this thread. It kind of reminds me somewhat of my journey.  

School - Maths & Physics, yes. Especially the Applied side of maths. Or called Mechanics these days. LOL

Cad - AutoCad, they probably won't use it in school but it's the premier tool in industry - so would definitely suggest getting to grips with that. The learning curve isn't as steep as you might think.

Currently going on Uni open days for my lad for Mech Eng courses at Uni and the thing I am noticing a lot of in the labs are 3D printers. Appreciate it isn't metal but might be something to look at. You don't have to spend tons to get a reasonable one.

Radio control models (and dismantling half of the household appliances to figure out how they worked LOL ) got me into it.

After Uni, even if he doesn't go into it - imo - it's one of the most universal degrees that can open doors for him into a multitude of careers.

Drop me a PM re: autocad. 

HIH

Dibs


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## Chris152

Many thanks, Dibs - pm sent! C


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## novocaine

Morning Chris
You got me thinking about where the Mardave mini worked out. 
a quick google popped this up, if you have a look round you'll see they sell a kit of parts for you to build a chassis for. 
add radio gear and a steering servo and you are off to the races. 

https://www.mardave.co.uk/rc-cars/1-12-oval

I'll still look at drawing up plans, based on this style of kit though and if you keep the wheel base the same you can get shells on ebay to suit. 

I dug my old mini kit out yesterday, it's had a lot of changes over the years and my 6 year old is showing an interest so it might get a new set of cells and be taken for a spin again fairly soon, I'd have to go back 20 something years to the last time I took a serious interest in it and a lot has moved on since then.


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## Chris152

My worry with getting a kit like that is that he'd build it and that'd be that, off to the races, as you say - and completely forget about trying to figure and build from scratch! He really wants to start cutting and shaping metal on a project of his own, so the more there is for him to make (within reason), the better and a kit might short-circuit that? They really are great fun - when he got the one he still has (Hornet off-roader) we marked out a figure of 8 track in the garden for racing with a neighbour. That was a good Christmas, especially for the dads. :ho2


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## novocaine

a fair comment. 
I'd still work with the Mardave style for it mind, they do a kit of parts that you make your own chassis for which I think includes stuff like stand offs, steering ball joints and arms, servo savers, wheel hubs etc. all stuff that you could make with the right tools but is teeny and fiddle and pointless to make yourself. he then gets to build the chassis, motor and rear axle mounts, steering frame, maybe the rear axle (pretty easy little turning job) and build it all up to the right scale so an existing shell fits over it, or, if he school has one, he can built his own bung and vac form his own shell for it. you'd still need to buy wheels and tyres, radio gear and ESC etc. 

not found the designs yet, still digging through the mire that is my archive between work.


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## Chris152

novocaine":bjz5pfne said:


> I'd still work with the Mardave style for it mind, they do a kit of parts that you make your own chassis for which I think includes stuff like stand offs, steering ball joints and arms, servo savers, wheel hubs etc. all stuff that you could make with the right tools but is teeny and fiddle and pointless to make yourself.


I think this is precisely what I need to get clear so I can advise him - what is and isn't do-able. I can't find that kind of kit, they seem to be pretty much everything except the electronics - maybe things have changed? But I wonder if it'd be a good idea to buy something like this:
https://www.mardave.co.uk/rc-cars/oval- ... 109-detail 
or this (cheaper = good)
http://www.kamtec.co.uk/epages/BT4645.s ... 446%5B4%5D
and then decide which parts he can remake (/even alter?) in metal, and use the parts from the kit that he can't? He'd then have something to copy exactly. He's keen to have a go at the body himself, so we'd need to look into that - it'd be somewhere he can do his own design.


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## novocaine

https://www.mardave.co.uk/rc-cars/94-detail 

this one perhaps. 

muchos cheaper and also Mardave (note, Kamtec are sort of frowned on as cheap inferior knock offs, not that it really matters).

for reference only. heres what I have from Mardave (it's got to be 20 years old now and still works, it's been bashed about and rebuilt so many times and it's insane how quick it is, I think I'll be purchasing a battery for it and letting the lad loose with it fairly soon)
it matches my car





so simply on the inside.


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## Chris152

Brilliant! I'll get him to take a look when he gets back and put an order in. I did search that site but obviously not well enough. Is yours a Mk1 Golf? He thinks they're great - that and Nissan 350z (and a few others...). Definitely get the battery sorted!
Thanks.


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## novocaine

It is. here's it's big brother. 



IMG_5571 by David Rees, on Flickr

if you go down that route I won't look for the files as it's going to give him everything he needs to start measuring and drawing up his own parts. 

have a search on ebay for lexen shell. he'll find every car he's ever wanted is out there somewhere. making his own shell is a great idea as well.


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## Chris152

perfect match! ha, i wonder if they do a VW Transporter, not quite so exciting I guess...


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## Chris152

Still not hit the 'buy' button - the only issue with the kit is that he really wanted to make to 1:8 scale. He could get the kit and measure the parts, then upscale to make his own, but that'd mean buying again for all the parts he can't make - and it looks like everything gets more expensive once it's 1:8, and harder to find. I think we'll go with the kit but just needs to make his mind up. Or make _all_ the parts himself!


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## novocaine

1:8 is crazy large for a first build and pretty useless unless you have a club to run it at. you don't get much in the way of normal vehicles in that scale either, most are rock crawlers and offroaders (great until you flip it or drive it in to the sea). 

the joy of 1:10 or 1:12 is it'll fit in a back pack and you can go find a car park or playground to run it at. 

Parts are also crazy cheap in comparison so he can fiddle to his hearts content. 

Shame I'm up north, I'd have let him have a play with the goof so he can see how crazy it can be and how much he could do with it even with minimal tools.


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## Chris152

Ok, decision made, we're going to get the kit, arriving in a couple of days! There's something about scale that matters to him, which I think I sort of understand (if he could, he'd be building a full-size car ) so we've agreed that he'll look at the kit and decide whether or not he can upscale just about everything (he may need to simplify things, but that'd be good if it gets him making decisions about what can and can't be done) and if not, go with it at 1:12. Either way, the kit'll get built, so win-win.


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