# New workshop for 2020



## Sheptonphil

Well, the time has come to embark on the new workshop build.

I have been for pre-planning and have been advised that I have a very high chance of acceptance, he could see no reason to refuse permission based on their criteria.

It will be built from the side of my house into the dead space on pic 1, and measure 3.9m x 7.2m opening with 2.5m wall to south.JPG







Can I ask advice re foundation/floor? pic 2 is what I am proposing.




I have a 2.5m wall to the front I can get tonne bags of type1 and sand placed over, within 3m of the build site. I cannot get concrete delivered without either a pump at £600 or taking down a metre of wall. 
Will this method give a solid floor for the wood workshop. The workshop build will be timber frame, fire grade plasterboard inside, rockwool insulation and Hardie Plank clad, with the membranes and gaps as per Mikes 'how to build a shed'. Roof will be Marley cement slates to match house and garage.


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## MikeG.

Well, it's a risk. You might be OK, but it's unorthodox, and not what I'd do. You've also got a bit of an issue with thrust from compaction of the Type 1, with your external block wall as risk. I have seen masonry pushed over by stuff being compacted within it, and you are very vulnerable to that. Your plinth is essentially a retaining wall in this situation.

Are you trying to avoid digging? And yet you're proposing trench fill foundations....... You really have me a little puzzled. You don't appear to have any coursing in the masonry to level the Type 1 to, and yet that it what determines whether of not your floor is flat and level.

Puzzled, I am.


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## Sheptonphil

Thanks for the comments Mike.

I take your point about it now being a retaining wall in essence. 

Using brick courses (Engineering?) instead of blocks Is not a problem for levels but still acts as a retainer though. 

No trying to avoid digging as such, just trying to have a solid floor rather than suspended without concrete if possible 

Would it be possible to use this method of compaction with a different wall construction? Two courses blocks flat Up to where type1 is, then a course of brick? Although I think it would make blocks proud around base.

I guess the celotex doesn’t compress when boarded over, so should be a solid floor. 

I’m not going to commit until you think it’s a viable build method. 

Thanks

Phil


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## Fil

What reason do you need planning permission for? As 3.9 x 7.2m is under the 30meter allowance, and seems your going down the fire proof materials route?

Only asking as going 3.6 x 7 myself. Fire rated paint internal and Hardie or cereal cladding, hopefully.


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## Sheptonphil

Two reasons for planning, the first is our estate in built on Duchy of Cornwall land, there is a clause in the original planning in 1997 that all ‘permitted development’ rights have been stripped, in perpetuity, this was the first point made by the planning officer on Friday. There is to be no buildings of any sort without planning (or changing windows for UPVC without planning). Some of the covenants expired after 10 years, there are a lot that are still active. No commercial vehicles over 15cwt on the estate overnight, no caravans, no campers, no boats. Even on your own driveway. 

Secondly, to use the cement slates I need at least 18.5 degree slope on roof. I’m going for 20 degrees. With the eaves at 2.4metres, the height to ridge of roof will be 3.5 metres so would have needed permission anyway as maximum even had I been able to use permitted development is 2.5 metre max height when 1 metre or less from boundary. Planning says if I were to use the metal sheets that kind of look like tiles, planning would be refused due to the visual impact the roof would make. If it’s done with the Marley tiles, there will be no problem. 

The fireproof materials are because it is within 1 metre of a boundary fence, the wall on that side must be ‘predominantly non-combustable’ to comply with building regs. I have to have the building notice signed off.


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## MikeG.

Fil":13b68jka said:


> What reason do you need planning permission for? As 3.9 x 7.2m is under the 30meter allowance.......



You're confusing two separate issues. There is no 30 sq m rule with regards to Planning Permission/ Permitted Developments Rights. The only floor-area limit there is that you don't exceed 50% of the land in total around the original house. That's a cumulative figure, so 3 or 4 smaller outbuildings totalled up could mean you can't build any more (and it includes extensions to the house). The 30 square metre thing is for Building Control (ie the threshold at which Building Regulations begin to apply).


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## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":2tz057ww said:


> ..... just trying to have a solid floor...without concrete.......



Why?


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1ffs9kvu said:


> Sheptonphil":1ffs9kvu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..... just trying to have a solid floor...without concrete.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
Click to expand...


Hi Mike

Solid as a shed this size really should have a sold floor not suspended (I believe) and no concrete only because a premix lorry cant access site without an expensive pump or me taking down part of the front wall.

Looks like concrete is the way you're advocating, if so is it viable to mix concrete for this floor 28sqm from tonne dumpy bags? I thought it may be too large an area to do with a mixer and barrow on my own. 3.7 m3 if my calculations are somewhere near.

thanks for help
Phil


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## Blackswanwood

If access is an issue block and beam may be worth considering?


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## MikeG.

The thing is, your footings need to be concrete anyway. There will be a fair amount of concrete in them. Line up 3 barrows, and get a couple of mates over. Or hire a dumper and make a crude chute to feed it.


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1fnvfa4y said:


> The thing is, your footings need to be concrete anyway. There will be a fair amount of concrete in them. Line up 3 barrows, and get a couple of mates over. Or hire a dumper and make a crude chute to feed it.



I figured I could mix for the footings, and do in stages. I will try another couple of companies to see if they have a vehicle that can discharge over a 2.1m wall. There is a further 500mm drop the other side so the site is 2.6m down from the wall top. Taking a bit off the top of the wall may be the answer to go concrete, although the block and beam could be worth also looking at. 

More research now, compacted type1 now off the table.


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## Inspector

Don't your concrete pumper trucks have booms to hold the hose/pipe above the ground? Here they routinely park on the street and are able to pump to all corners of the property. With you having a relatively mild climate not needing to go deep for frost, can't you pour a slab and footing/thickened edge in one go? Just asking. :?: 

Pete


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## MikeG.

Inspector":1nqxlmia said:


> Don't your concrete pumper trucks have booms to hold the hose/pipe above the ground?........



Our OP is trying to avoid hiring a pump, which is fair enough, because they cost a fortune. It also requires two large vehicles (the concrete mixer and the pump lorry), and with our confined streets and small plots that can be a real headache.

An idea of the site layout would be handy.


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## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":1mj4lzkw said:


> ....... 3.7 m3 if my calculations are somewhere near.......



I see you're allowing for 125mm thick concrete. With your slab size that's your bare minimum. Ideally it would be at least 25mm thicker. Are there any trees near by, and it you dig a hole 2 feet deep, what sort of ground is in the bottom of the hole?


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## Inspector

MikeG.":3sj1ce3w said:


> Our OP is trying to avoid hiring a pump, which is fair enough, because they cost a fortune. It also requires two large vehicles (the concrete mixer and the pump lorry), and with our confined streets and small plots that can be a real headache.
> 
> An idea of the site layout would be handy.



I understand not wanting to spend the money but with the OP talking about taking apart walls (brick, stone or block I presume) I thought it offset the cost and work of putting the walls back up, along with getting done quicker.

By concrete mixer do you mean the ready mix trucks that come from the cement plant or do you guys mix the ingredients on site?

Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
Pete


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## Blackswanwood

Inspector":1z0zv4py said:


> MikeG.":1z0zv4py said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our OP is trying to avoid hiring a pump, which is fair enough, because they cost a fortune. It also requires two large vehicles (the concrete mixer and the pump lorry), and with our confined streets and small plots that can be a real headache.
> 
> An idea of the site layout would be handy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand not wanting to spend the money but with the OP talking about taking apart walls (brick, stone or block I presume) I thought it offset the cost and work of putting the walls back up, along with getting done quicker.
> 
> By concrete mixer do you mean the ready mix trucks that come from the cement plant or do you guys mix the ingredients on site?
> 
> Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
> Pete
Click to expand...


It’s ready mixed Pete


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## Lons

A team of 3 of us have mixed and laid those sort of quantities in a day on several occasions but it is hard work and we were experienced.
Another couple of options maybe?

1). Do you have enough space at the front of the house for readymix to be dumped so all you have to do is barrow and lay, assuming you have access from the front. You'll need at least 2 helpers, plus the wife to keep the tea coming. You also would need to have a large piece of sacrificial DPM to drop the concrete on to and would need to make some temporary retaining structure to hold it. Again something we did numerous times.

2). Again assuming you have access and it is a more expensive way to buy per cube but if you order from a company who mixes at the site they arrive with several burly lads who mix and barrow exactly the quantity you need outside the front dropped into the hole. You do need to count the barrows as it's been known their maths aren't always accurate. :roll:


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## MikeG.

Inspector":2d4sx3gl said:


> .....By concrete mixer do you mean the ready mix trucks that come from the cement plant.....



Yes.


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":2n3y90mu said:


> Sheptonphil":2n3y90mu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....... 3.7 m3 if my calculations are somewhere near.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see you're allowing for 125mm thick concrete. With your slab size that's your bare minimum. Ideally it would be at least 25mm thicker. Are there any trees near by, and it you dig a hole 2 feet deep, what sort of ground is in the bottom of the hole? An idea of the site layout would be handy.
Click to expand...


Sorry, I appreciate without a plan it’s hard to offer help. Have added one here. 

At approx 150mm we are on bedrock, I’ve just put nine fence posts in, after the first 150-180mm it was done with a breaker drill. 

No trees near to worry about. On the site plan, south of the house is access for a hyab or mixer lorry to deliver over the ‘rendered wall to south’ in line with the green.






Removing spoil is more involved, access would be across the lovely (at present) lawn to get to the gate in front garage (pointy bit), as would getting a digger in. 

The lane to garage has a dog leg, so a skip vehicle would have to be quite small to get up lane in reverse. 

At 150mm is that circa 4.3m3?

I shan’t mention digger to SWMBO at the moment, we’ve only been here three weeks and she really likes the lawn. :?


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## Sheptonphil

Lons":33i6n4fo said:


> A team of 3 of us have mixed and laid those sort of quantities in a day on several occasions but it is hard work and we were experienced.
> Another couple of options maybe?
> 
> 1). Do you have enough space at the front of the house for readymix to be dumped so all you have to do is barrow and lay, assuming you have access from the front. You'll need at least 2 helpers, plus the wife to keep the tea coming. You also would need to have a large piece of sacrificial DPM to drop the concrete on to and would need to make some temporary retaining structure to hold it. Again something we did numerous times.
> 
> 2). Again assuming you have access and it is a more expensive way to buy per cube but if you order from a company who mixes at the site they arrive with several burly lads who mix and barrow exactly the quantity you need outside the front dropped into the hole. You do need to count the barrows as it's been known their maths aren't always accurate. :roll:



Hmm, I’ve added a site plan now, but no, there is no access to the site from front except over the wall. It’s a verrrry long walk (and three steps, then around house) to barrow it. 

Thanks for the thought though. 

Phil


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## Blackswanwood

Phil - I ran a one tonne dumper over a temporary path made by laying down OSB sheets across a lawn. The lawn soon recovered and I probably did 20 trips each way.


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## Lons

As for the digging, won't help crossing any part of the lawn unless you put down protecting tracks but you can hire a micro digger which has the ability to narrow it's tracks and get along a narrow path. As narrow as about 750mm and they have fold down roll bar to get under arches, I've had them inside buildings and they are easy and fun to operate and remarkably effective. If you don't fancy driving you can hire with driver as well.

Great for narrow trenches if you use the 300mm bucket, it's what I used on my own extension years ago and also to dig out the pond.

EDIT
This type!
I seriously considered buying one when I had my business


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## Sheptonphil

Blackswanwood":2zxxcsbn said:


> Phil - I ran a one tonne dumper over a temporary path made by laying down OSB sheets across a lawn. The lawn soon recovered and I probably did 20 trips each way.



Lons, I can get a 1-1.5 tonne digger in, the OSB and dumper is a brilliant way to keep damage to a minimum. 

Look more and more like I can do this the proper way, dig out and somehow concrete floor (working on that one) without having to employ divorce layer.


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## Blackswanwood

Phil, it’s worth considering block and beam. You will need to remove less spoil and have less disruption if that’s an important consideration to keep the family sweet!


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## MikeG.

Blackswanwood":bl4xmrpv said:


> Phil, it’s worth considering block and beam. You will need to remove less spoil and have less disruption if that’s an important consideration to keep the family sweet!



Levels are the major consideration when it comes to suspended floors. There will be a big step up into the building, or else there will still be a big excavation, and that excavation would at lest need drainage to be considered. A big step up affects the headroom.


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## Sheptonphil

Progress

I’ve had a quote for a 4.5m3 load of C30 delivered and pumped over the wall (16 metre boom?) for £750+ VAT all in, as long as they get to choose which day in the week it’s delivered and I get told day before. That timescale works for me. This works out a £100 dearer than standard delivery and rebuilding the wall, but if rebuilt would never look the same, and the same cost as block and beam setup, but without the extra depth dug out. Guess I’m going to have reinforcing steel to add as well. 

I will put this floor method when giving building notice after planning is approved. 

Bit of a delay now till it goes through the planning permission process. 

Thanks all for input, will post as things develop.


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## Sheptonphil

First stage, town council planning went through ok last week. 

Today the district council planning officer did his site visit. His first words before seeing the site were, “I’m recommending this for approval”

I replied with “ I’m asking for a Non material minor amendment to the plan” and showed him a new site plan with an extension to the new workshop added to the rear of the workshop, but would be in front of the house line. After a look at the location, as pictured earlier in thread, he hmm’d then said “fine, just send in an amended plan and I’ll add it to the application” no reconsulting, no extra fees, no hassle. This planning officer is a real gem. Straight down to earth using common sense. He could have made me put the amendment through planning portal at a cost of £34 with £25 ‘service fee’. 

So, planning approved, just awaiting formal notice. 

I had a quote to dig under 30m of footings, they came back at £6000!!!!!!

What is a reasonable cost to dig 30 linear metres of 400mm wide, 300mm deep footings, 100mm type1 base, 200mm concrete and two courses of concrete blocks. Remove spoil and supply all materials. 

New layout with extended store room 2.6m x 2.0m


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## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":2v8mnd49 said:


> .......Today the district council planning officer did his site visit. His first words before seeing the site were, “I’m recommending this for approval”
> 
> I replied with “ I’m asking for a Non material minor amendment to the plan” and showed him a new site plan with an extension to the new workshop added to the rear of the workshop, but would be in front of the house line. After a look at the location, as pictured earlier in thread, he hmm’d then said “fine, just send in an amended plan and I’ll add it to the application” no reconsulting, no extra fees, no hassle. This planning officer is a real gem. Straight down to earth using common sense. He could have made me put the amendment through planning portal at a cost of £34 with £25 ‘service fee’. ..........



A non material (or a material) amendment applies only to an existing permission, which you don't have. Changes like this mid-process are commonplace, and are always dealt with the way your was. Sometimes, if the change is important, they'll re-start the consultation process. Nonetheless, it's good news that he's recommending approval. You should be building in a few weeks time!

As for the groundwork price........how many people have you asked for a price? You want a local jobbing builder or groundworker. not a contractor. Is access an issue for the muck-away?


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## Sheptonphil

No, access is decent for a 3.5t tipper. I’ve asked a second two man builders, they’ve looked but no price yet. Just wondered what is a ball park figure.


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## Sheptonphil

Well, have just received notification that planning has been approved. 

Now, planning the roof, I have shown on the plan the left part of the roof a hip which I fine. How do I bring the roof off the house wall and cover both the workshop and extended part in one. Can it be done with one or more hips?

I could just roof the main part with another hip, then roof the extra bit separate, but this would mean lowering the height of the extended part.


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## MikeG.

How have you got planning permission without a roof plan, and elevations showing the roof from all sides?


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## Sheptonphil

As for roof Mike, the original drawings had just the single rectangle with a hipped pent roof, it was only on site visit planning officer agreed in principle to new addition, asked me to submit a new plan, which I did. The extra bit was shown as pent. I have spoken to him about it and instead of hipped roof, he is allowing alteration to have a 7.4m apex roof lengthways, with the extension having its own pent roof. It is hidden from view front and back, and the side facing neighbour which would have had a slope with a hip either end will now have a gable end, no extra height, both ends will be the same, just the middle will be apex instead of pent. 

It will make tiling a whole lot easier from my property. To clad the sides, I will be removing and replacing the old fence panels that need replacing anyways. Have agreed with neighbour to fund the new panels (slot in to concrete posts) in exchange for having the fence down for a day or two to put the siding on then slot panels in. The hardiest plank siding has a 20 year warranty and no maintenance needed. 

I will be using commercial apex trusses at 22.5 degrees, made to measure. Do any of the walls need tying together? The roofing will be cement slate tiles. 

Started clearing site today, old shed ripped down and carted off to tip. 










Will try to reorientate the pictures, Have marked out with line marker the dimensions, all looks good, going to be a really decent size. 

Digger hired for Monday to start foundation.

The journey begins.


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## MikeG.

If you are buying trusses then they include a tie (the bottom chord), and will have been calculated to take the load imposed by the tiling.


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## Sheptonphil

Excellent. Thanks Mike. It just seemed so much easier using commercial trusses from Donaldsons, than having to have a much larger and heavier self made structure. I think they are 75x35 trusses instead of the 150x50 + I would have had to use before. No wall plate, easier to tile with no hips, easier to flash, and guttering can discharge into the house down pipes either end. The front/back orientation means I can change slates easer if the need arises. 

Shan’t order the trusses till the two base courses of brick are laid so I can make sure I get the right size made. 

Sure there will be many more questions as the build progresses, thanks for the input.


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## MikeG.

Are you having a flat ceiling then, and insulating at ceiling level? Many people instead have a vaulted ceiling, use the "loft" space for wood storage, and insulate at rafter level. With only 75mm (are you sure?) depth you haven't room for insulation in the rafters. Oh, and there will be a wall plate.


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":14xu3ebi said:


> Are you having a flat ceiling then, and insulating at ceiling level? Many people instead have a vaulted ceiling, use the "loft" space for wood storage, and insulate at rafter level. With only 75mm (are you sure?) depth you haven't room for insulation in the rafters. Oh, and there will be a wall plate.


Yes, flat ceiling, plaster boarded its insulation above. I don’t know the depth yet of the trusses, only that they are 35mm thick. If they are 100mm deep I guess I can put insulation rolled across the ceiling joists with more solid insulation bats between them to give 200mm. Will be asking about that and vapour barriers later when trusses are here and about starting them from the house wall. 

Will post up a new dimensional plan over the weekend.


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## Inspector

I don't know how you normally do things but before doing much more than the concrete I would think through all the details of the construction thru finishing before I ordered anything. If you don't you might find yourself doing something that will be costly to work around instead of dealing with it in the planning stages. Venting above the insulation from eves to peak for example. Like having a stud under each rafter so the loads from each rafter travel through the plate, down the stud, to the sill in a straight line. Are you running wiring inside the wall or surface mounting in conduit? If you try to wing it as you go it can get expensive when the inspector doesn't pass it.

Pete


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## Sheptonphil

Thanks Pete. 

Foundation and base up to two courses of brick at DPC level should be complete by Thursday, weather permitting. At that point I will do structure drawings to put the wall studs in line with the trusses before construction. Electric and water service ducts are already planned into the base and water pipe and armoured cable are on site to install

Electrics will be in the walls (and two floor points as well) and will be done as a first fix. Ceiling will be insulated, vapour barrier and plaster boarded. I don’t want to use the little bit of loft space for hoarding. It’s a fairly low pitch roof at 22.5 degrees so no massive space anyway. 

Roof will have dry ridge venting, with vents at the eaves as per mikes plan. 

Walls will have breathable membrane, counter battens for ventilation and cement plank cladding, timber frame filled with rock wool, vapour barrier and boarded inside with fireproof plasterboard. There will be acoustic plasterboard, vapour barrier and acoustic insulation on wall adjoining house.


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## Sheptonphil

Started pre planning the wall and roof construction

On a timber frame with commercially made trusses, is there a need/advantage in going 400mm centres as against 600mm to support weight of Marley cement slates.

The dimensions of the frame are 7400x 3750 with the trusses along the 7400 length supported on the 3750 walls. One 7400 wall is the house abutment, the other will be a free standing gable end. 

I would set a wall plate the same profile as the truss on the house wall, would I build a similar structure at the gable end or use the truss as the end? I’m thinking I should be building a frame of 2 x 4 as it’s got to carry the external cladding. 

The difference is 10 trusses for 400mm studs, as against 7 for 600mm studs. 

Would then the gable end also be set to 400mm centres even though it’s not load bearing. 

Thanks for any advice.


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## MikeG.

Double your wall plates and you don't need to line up trusses with studs. Having said that, I built my workshop with studs on 600 C's. There's no need for 400 C's unless you're lining the inside with plasterboard, and even then, you can use 15mm plasterboard at 600 C's.


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":2ln3f6li said:


> Double your wall plates and you don't need to line up trusses with studs. Having said that, I built my workshop with studs on 600 C's. There's no need for 400 C's unless you're lining the inside with plasterboard, and even then, you can use 15mm plasterboard at 600 C's.



All internal walls will be fireproof plasterboard due to the 'predominantly fireproof' regulation except the house wall which will be Acoustic Plasterboard, so I will put 15mm boards all round for the little extra in cost.

It was as much about the strength of the end walls taking the load, and whether they would benefit from 400mm studs. I could do as you suggest, double up the wall plates, 400mm stud spacing on end walls, and 600mm for the trusses (they are manufactured on assumed 600mm spacing). 

Thanks again for your input Mike.


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## Sheptonphil

plan with dimensions showing brick courses.


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## Sheptonphil

Progress this week, footings are in along with DPM ,and working on second course of bricks to DPC. 













All being well timber should start to arrive this coming week, roof trusses ordered for end of April.

Why do pictures appear sideways, but are right way up when you click on them?


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## MikeG.

What are the straps outside the bricks?


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":2023wjzw said:


> What are the straps outside the bricks?



They are secured into foundation to strap over sole plates Mike.


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## MikeG.

From the outside?


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":235vhb2y said:


> From the outside?



Can still be attached from inside at this point, I guess there is a reason not from outside. 

Would I have a wood plate strapped to the DPC and bricks, then fix wall structure as pre fabricated 3.6m panels (Bottoms, studs and tops) to that, or strap the wall panels to the DPC? I will be adding an extra wall plate after.


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## MikeG.

Yes, they most certainly should not be on the outside, subject to the weather, and where fixings will rust. They'll also create a pathway for damp into the building.

You can have it that the sole plate of the panelwork is bedded on mortar on the plinth. That's how I built my workshop. However, it is easier to do a good job if you bed the sole plate down first, and strap it down properly, before then placing the panel on top. .....and that what I did when I built the extension to my house.


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## Sheptonphil

Thanks Mike, will sort straps later today.

A plate strapped first, then panelled is how I will go, I think it will be far more accurate setting out the timbers this way.

Thanks for input.


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## Sheptonphil

Is this membrane suitable to cover both roof and walls?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eurovent-Breat ... =UTF8&th=1


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## MikeG.

If you want to be strict about it you would look up its BBA certificate, and see what that says. If you were having the building inspected then the Building Inspector might ask for this. However, I would be completely content to use that on both walls and roof of a non-controlled building even if its use on walls wasn't covered by the BBA. Basically, roofing membranes need to be more robust than that used in walls because of the toes of the boots of the roofers, and because of all the debris generated by roofing. They have roughly equal requirements for vapour permeability. The logic therefore is that roofing membranes can be used on walls, but wall membranes can't necessarily be used on rooves.


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## Sheptonphil

Well, that’s the build put on hold for now. 

All the timber and osb was due for delivery on Wednesday, can’t see that happening, so no more materials to work with. 

Have paint, so more decorating inside, I have been told by Management.


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## DBT85

I imagine your delivery will still occur. You can't go into any shopstbut most are still operating delivery services.


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## Sheptonphil

Had confirmation, timber delivery will be Friday, but at new price of 24p metre price rise on the 4x2. Added £80 to the bill (I was given chance to cancel order). 

Roof trusses delayed till further notice, all manufacturing halted. Cladding unknown delay, possibly weeks. 

Might be best to just set the sole plates on the brick foundation and DPC, build the frames, store them onsite and wait for things to get back to ‘normal’ before erecting the shell.


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## DBT85

Sheptonphil":1h3znwyb said:


> Had confirmation, timber delivery will be Friday, but at new price of 24p metre price rise on the 4x2. Added £80 to the bill (I was given chance to cancel order).
> 
> Roof trusses delayed till further notice, all manufacturing halted. Cladding unknown delay, possibly weeks.
> 
> Might be best to just set the sole plates on the brick foundation and DPC, build the frames, store them onsite and wait for things to get back to ‘normal’ before erecting the shell.


Bummer. Hopefully once the full lockdown is eased they'll get back to work so yeah, get those frames done and under a tarp.

Where did you get your timber from out of interest?


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## Sheptonphil

I sourced the timber from Right Price at Shepton Mallet and got a really good deal of £9.30 inc VAT for 4.8m C16 100x50 for 70 lengths. £3.20 for 40 off 4.8m of 25x50 tanno roof batten, and £16 for 2400x1200 OSB, all delivered.

I've been a customer of theirs for 30 years and prices are always competitive.

Phil


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## Sheptonphil

The trusses are now designed and the roof can flow without the separate pent area, which would have lost ceiling height. Planning officer is still happy as it follows house roof layout. Its going to have a single apex design, with stub trusses where the extended part tucks in. The flat wall instead of roof line will be behind my perimeter wall. Will make slating a tidier and easier job as well.


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## Inspector

How are you going to lift the trusses onto the walls? Or do the delivery trucks have folding cranes to place them on top in bundles for you to spread out, brace and attach? Here that's one of the ways it would be done. The other is to have them delivered to the ground and a telehandler (extending boom fork lift) lifts them into position.

Pete


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## Sheptonphil

Haven’t actually crossed that bridge yet. :| 

I know a farmer with a tele handler if needs be. The trusses weigh 48 kg each so not massively difficult I would have thought for three people. (He says optimistically)


----------



## Sheptonphil

Delivery as scheduled. Start on the sole plates today.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Does anyone know why pictures show as sideways, but sometimes right way up when clicked on?

Checked the timber, and it is all C24, not C16, bonus!

Lorry turned up, last delivery before indefinite shutdown. Insulation ready for wall build.


----------



## DBT85

Shame it looks like this nicer weather is about to vanish!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1e57mzhi said:


> Shame it looks like this nicer weather is about to vanish!


Looking good here for a week


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":3mnm69c1 said:


> DBT85":3mnm69c1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shame it looks like this nicer weather is about to vanish!
> 
> 
> 
> Looking good here for a week
Click to expand...

We're expecting "feels like 2c" for the weekend!

Good luck with it all. Must be exciting finally getting to the point of cutting and making the frame up.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Definitely exciting.
I spent this afternoon just setting out and bedding one sole plate and DPC to within a mm on the 3 4 5 triangle from the house wall and set level with the laser. I used 3.6, 4.8 and 6m for setting out. 

The whole structure will be built from this one piece as reference so wanted to make sure it’s absolutely spot on. Possibly anal, but this represents a lot of my savings so want to do it properly. Hopefully get the rest of the sole plates bedded and secured over the weekend. going to be a steady build as two main construction items are on hold.


----------



## MikeG.

If you haven't strapped those plates down yet, wait until the muck has gone off well and then house out for them. Best to do this with a router rather than a mallet and chisel for fear of disturbing the mortar, but if you set the straps down (allow for the depth of the screw heads, too, then your panels can sit on the top and be moved around without fouling them.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Will take a pic later, yes I routed a channel for the straps and screw heads dry fitted, before setting it on mortar and DPC.

Bricks were laid 10 days ago so their bed is well set.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A productive day setting the sole plates on the DPC

Working alone has its disadvantages. Tucking DMP in under 4.8m lengths of 4x2 whilst a force 8 blowing was frustrating and arm aching, but perseverance paid off.

All DPC bedded on mortar and all plates strapped down. This should ease the wall build, it was far easier making sure everything was level and square without having eight foot of wall attached!

















I think its now time to tackle the walls, recon I'll start with the left hand attached to the house, build that one up, insulate it (that'll use six packs of Rockwool) and put vapour barrier on to keep rain off.


----------



## Inspector

I know you guys do a lot of things differently than us but leave the insulation until after the roof is done including the shingling and siding on so the structure is dry. Water will get in and once in not dry out at this stage. The vapour barrier will take damage from boards being swung, stuff falling against it and so on too. 

Pete


----------



## Sheptonphil

You’re probably right, I’ll find a tarp to cover the extra pile of insulation. 

Water tight will be a long way off, it will be a month delay after they go back after enforced shutdown to make the trusses.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Well, plan B, if it’s even viable. 

With the manufacturing shutdown of trusses for up to four months, but the decent availability of timber, what is the chance of building some kind of roof structure in the longitudinal direction that would, on the outside at least, give a duo pitch apex roof.

Is there a way using up to 8x2 timber to achieve this? Some sort braced rafters in the long way, ceiling joists crossways perhaps?

Whether it ended up flat ceiling or vaulted internal is acceptable. I won’t be using the ceiling for storage of anything. 

If it’s a pipe dream, I’ll just have to sit it out.

The plans are like these sketches


----------



## MikeG.

It's the ceiling ties which would be difficult, but as they aren't important, then with purlins that's a do-able cut roof. What angle is it?


----------



## Sheptonphil

22.5 degree both side, including the stub truss Mike.


----------



## MikeG.

A cut roof requires a structural engineer's calculations to satisfy the local council. I am an architect, not a structural engineer. I can tell you that you'll need a structural ridge beam which the engineer will have to size, and purlins (again, sized by the engineer). The rafters will almost certainly end up at 400 centres, and with purlins, 195x45 will be fine.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Thanks Mike

We have a structural engineer at the Bowls Club. There will be no season this year, so reckon he will have a bit of spare time to spec this up.

Thanks


----------



## Sheptonphil

More progress over the weekend and today. 

Walls being constructed and stored ready for final assembly. Just the garden end wall and middle wall to build, then start to erect the structure. 

I’ve got to put most of the noggins in yet, but they are damned heavy as they are, so I’ll leave that till they’re up. Working alone is fine, I can concentrate on building walls to my detailed scale plan, but humping those completed frames is no joke. It didn’t help that I’ve gone to 400mm centres on the ends to carry the rafters above every stud as well as double wall plate. 

I think I’ve worked out a way to handle it, temporary support and then join together unaided. 

This virus has a lot to answer for. 

Engineer has designed roof, and given me a timber list. Fortunately, I’ve a really good working relationship with a local DIY company who has given superb service and will be delivering my last timber order on Friday. A load of spare 4x2 (I kept adding studs so have used a fair bit of my spare lengths) and all the roofing materials.









[attachment=0]5B602C80-0C6C-4F83-A857-CC16475A1AFF.j


----------



## DBT85

Any particular reason for the change to 400mm as well as the double top?

Is that not belt, braces and 9 inch nails through ones hips just to be sure?


----------



## Sheptonphil

That’s exactly what it is. Over engineered for total peace of mind.  

For the sake of £30 of extra timber, I’m doing it now as I can’t (and in all fairness probably wouldn’t need to) do it later. I’ve left the sides at 600 centres though. 

I’ll use 12mm coach bolts to join the sections at the corners, the 9.5m side, which was made in three sections, will be bolted together when up. Then I’ll finish the noggins. 

First fix electrics could be routed after that, as we’ll as trench the services along the back of the house. I’ve Also got to put another electric box in the wall alongside the meter box for my sparky to split the supply. 

I’ve got the membrane, counter battens, osb and insulation on site so that may be doable, as I can’t do the roof alone.


----------



## Sheptonphil

More progress as the weather holds. 

Last of the wall panels made up ready. 
The spray paint is to make sure I know which side faces inwards and colour to mark joins in panels, build by colour if you like. 

So glad I asked Mike about setting the sole plates. With the sheer weight of the wall panels, there is no way in hell I could have bedded them, DPC and DPM without screwing something up completely had I not set the single plate first. As it was, with the sole plates bedded, strapped and set, I had a rock solid immovable base to not only work off, but more importantly work to. I spent a lot of time and care setting the sole plates before strapping, and it has paid off big time now. 

As I started to assemble the panels on the base, everything just lined up, perfectly level and so easy to make sure walls were plumb before bolting panels together. Working alone these days makes you work out how to move 100kg 2.3m tall panels without doing yourself a mischief! :? 

Steady as she goes, should get the rest of the frame up by the weekend. 

Just had my last delivery, so all the roof timber is here on site.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Another good day on the build. 

I managed to put the membrane and battens on the first panel and a half as I shan’t be able to get to that bit till I remove the fence panels for replacement in a few months

All the pre-made wall panels popped up on the base plate, clamped together first, carefully make sure everything was plumb then bolted together, screwed to the plates and bracketed to the house wall. H&S would have had a field day here today with safe handling procedures, 120kg+ on the front panel, but it’s up. 

This framework is going nowhere. 

The off cuts from the 4.8’s of 4x2 will cut nicely for the noggins tomorrow. The gas nailer has made this construction so much quieter than using screws and an impact driver. 

Timber supplier now shut indefinitely, but phoned me today to give me his home number and as they will be in stock taking and general tidy, will drop off any more timber or fixings I need during the closure.


----------



## MikeG.

Why have you built a wall across the face of the wall of the house?


----------



## Sheptonphil

Hi Mike

Added a wall to add acoustic insulation and acoustic plasterboard. I have been told in no uncertain terms that any noise coming from the workshop will render it un-operational and out of bounds unless I'm using a sewing machine.  

The other side of that wall is the lounge the whole length of the workshop.

So far, despite being confined to the house, the only time the good lady has heard anything is when the gas nailer goes off. The chop saw and drills/driver, mixer and even hammer etc has gone un-noticed. It was £80 of timber and as much again in insulation to at least show I did something to stop the noise. 

It will also make a nice finish for the workshop, as all the walls will be painted white, and for hanging cupboards and shelves. Might also be a section of French cleats, but I know how much you hate them. All the machinery (especially the CNC router which can run for two hours at a session) is destined for the other side wall, with the extractor and compressor in the sound insulated ante-room. All walls will have 100mm rockwool acoustic insulation.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Mike, if I may ask, on the house wall side, obviously I will not be putting anything wall side, but should I put vapour barrier between studs and plasterboard?


----------



## MikeG.

Blimey........let me think. 

Presumably that's a heated room in the house, the other side of the wall? What is the wall construction?


----------



## Sheptonphil

The wall is dry lined, lightweight blocks, then cavity, then the stone exterior as pictures. The room is heated by radiator or open fire. 

Thanks.


----------



## MikeG.

A vapour barrier should be on the warm side of the insulation. Here, you have an intermittently heated external space and a permanently warm internal space. The vapour build up is going to be more on the house side of the wall rather than the workshop side. Even when heated, it is unlikely the workshop will be as warm as the house (workshops normally get heated to 15 to 18 degrees). This means the vapour movement is likely to be from inside the house to the workshop most of the time, and almost never the other way (which would require the workshop to be warmer than the house). Any barrier to this movement should be close to the inside face of the house wall, and nowhere else. Therefore, there should be no vapour barrier applied to the new workshop wall.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Wow, what a comprehensive answer, thankyou I follow the logic and won't put one there.

I've got loads of excess breathable membrane, certainly enough for that wall if that would be any benefit.

Cant decide whether to put the electrics in the wall as they are open at present, or trunk them later.

Obviously to do them now would mean deciding where virtually every socket, switch and light would go, trunking would be less tidy, but leave options completely open. perhaps a hybrid approach? gotta think that one through.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Finished off the noggins, fitted the double top plate and tidied the site ready for the next stage. 

All in all, a good week’s work from foundations to framework finished. 

Can now get a good idea of how the space will work, and I may be able to put another small detached wood store at the back of the ante-room below the wall. There’s a space 2.5m by 1.5 that will go to waste otherwise. 

Electrics first fix tomorrow.


----------



## DBT85

Looking great! Nice to use this extra time off we have!

On sockets, I hate surface mount electrics but it does offer the benefit of flexibility. You're also less likely to stick a screw through the cable as you can see where it's all going.

Given your shop will probably have a lot more sockets than an average room it might be best. 

It also makes insulation and boarding out less work as you don't have to think about cables, sockets and cutouts.

Off the top of my head (I'm no no electrician), to hide it all you need to put a hole in the middle of each stud, run the cables all the way around, put metal plates over each stud where the cable goes to stop you wanging a screw I to the stuff there. Then you can insulate the cavities while having to work around the cables, board out while cutting socket holes (or at least a small hole to pull cable though to then do a surface mount socket).

Lighting might be less of an issue as a lot of the led panels and stuff can be daisy chained to each other. So you might only need an outlet at either end of the shop and then work inwards with the lights from there. 

Im in two minds myself. Fortunately I haven't started yet!


----------



## MikeG.

It's a workshop......who cares what the cabling looks like. Run it on the surface and be able to avoid it, shift it, alter it, and extend it at will. I added 2 panels to my workshop lighting yesterday. It took longer to mount the panels than to do the electrics, because everything is accessible.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Its the way I'm heading mentally as it won't be easy to get through or around the door headers, it will mean bringing that to the surface in those two places, also I'll have to leave spare cable all over the place 'just in case', probably in every gap.

Surface trunk in 22mm conduit will look decent enough, as Mike says 'It's a workshop'

thanks both for swaying the decision.


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":3c42mg6w said:


> .......door headers.......



Lintels.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":3c4pkvaq said:


> Sheptonphil":3c4pkvaq said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......door headers.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lintels.
Click to expand...

Sorry


----------



## Sheptonphil

A plodding progress today, the membrane, insulation and OSB was not a difficult job, but needed a setup of a methodical routine. 

It was fun when the wind got up, I’m building in a bit of a wind tunnel and ten metres of membrane trying to get away from me was frustrating. I managed about half the framework but all the membrane, so another day should knock a hole in this job. I’ve a fair amount of membrane spare, so will probably put some on the wall side even though it doesn’t need it, so I can insulate that and keep it from getting wet.


----------



## flying haggis

re electrics if you put square or rectangular 50x50 or 50x75 trunking all round the top of the shop on top of the wall boarding you can then drop a length of conduit down to anywhere for switches sockets etc


----------



## DBT85

Looking great Phil. Keep it coming!


----------



## Sheptonphil

flying haggis":eakn4yy3 said:


> re electrics if you put square or rectangular 50x50 or 50x75 trunking all round the top of the shop on top of the wall boarding you can then drop a length of conduit down to anywhere for switches sockets etc


Sounds a good idea thanks, gives loads of options then. I’ll have a look round and see what’s about.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3sgr98sx said:


> Looking great Phil. Keep it coming!


Thanks, it’s hard work on your own, but quite rewarding working out ways to handle jobs you would normally do with two people. 

More progress today, doesn’t look much difference, but all the insulation is now finished and all but one of the OSB cut and fitted, with the last one to do tomorrow. 

A bit of tinkering over doors etc. And rip some 3x1 to finish the battening on the external corners to do. 

The platform made from a couple of lengths of 4x2 on the trestles made cutting the OSB with the track saw and insulation with a hand saw so much easier at a decent height. 

I’ve been doing DIY for best part of fifty years, hanging wallpaper before I was 11 years old, and the one thing I’ve found this last couple of weeks is wearing Stanley nitrile fronted gloves so much kinder on the hands. Doesn’t restrict feeling of tools or fixings, you need less pressure holding materials and no splinters to boot. At the end of the day, hands are far less fatigued and never sore. 

Today’s efforts.


----------



## DBT85

Oh yeah man grip gloves make a huge difference at the end of the day. Your knuckles don't feel like you went 10 rounds with the Hulk because you've not been putting nearly as much work in to heft stuff around.

While my shop isn't going anywhere any time soon I'm learning Fusion 360. My brother wanted a drawing for his garage office so using that as a project for timber framing! Got to keep busy some how (after looking after the kid, the DIY, the gardening, fixing everything, etc)!


----------



## Sheptonphil

Never worn gloves for this type of work before, but for £1.99 a pair from B&M, which has lasted two weeks and still loads of life left in them, I’ll never not wear them again. Toolstation ones at the same money are really good as well, but buy a size larger than normal, for large buy extra large. 

Advice on the electrics please.

It’s been mooted in a few places that one or two 20A 4mm radial circuit/s for the sockets is better than a 32A ring (or two). Uses less cable and just as efficient. 

Does anyone have an opinion?


----------



## DBT85

If you've sockets on every wall and are putting trunking up high and having drops then you can just do one 32a ring in 2.5mm because it goes around the entire inside. If you can't join both ends up for some reason then yeah 4mm radials in opposite directions from the CU works. Less of a pain than running 2 2.5mm in conduit and boxes for an out and back again journey. 

I think I'd go with the 32a ring though. But then I'm fairly sure I can just go up from my CU, head left and keep going till I'm back at the CU.

TLC want £39 for 100m of 2.5 and £63 for 4mm. So theres small saving. No idea if it's a saving lost on having to then have another circuit mind! 

Not sure I'd bother with 2 rings, though with surface mount it's easy to add later. You've got to be going some to use 7kw at once in a one man shop even with heat. Mine will most likely be a 32a ring, a lighting, maybe a 16a, maybe floor separate and then maybe separate for heat. No idea yet tbh! 

Are you putting in anything in the floor or a 16a outlet just in case? Looking at some extractors on axeminster I was surprised to see so many with 16a plugs when the machine is only say 2kw. One was o ly 1.1kw. Maybe I've missed something.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2dr05gbx said:


> Are you putting in anything in the floor or a 16a outlet just in case? Looking at some extractors on axeminster I was surprised to see so many with 16a plugs when the machine is only say 2kw. One was o ly 1.1kw. Maybe I've missed something.


Yes, two floor sockets and a 16A circuit. I use a floor socket to power the outlets on my island work bench to save having leads from wall to workbench. My Jet chip extractor used to trip the MCB in my last workshop on start-up if anything else was running till I upped the breaker to a C class one. It was a long way from the house and at the limit of the supply cable. 

As I'm going in conduit I've a route around the room anyways so will probably go with the single core cables in 2.5 ring. couldn't see why so many are advocating radial.


----------



## DBT85

Ive seen plenty of rings that are out and back again in the same run of trunking or whatever. So that's why. A radial is the sensible choice there.

You also have the benefit of a radial being really easy to fault find. On a ring you could have a problem and not notice and end up cooking a cable because you're sucking 30a from one run of 2.5mm. I mean, it doesn't happen often but it can.


----------



## flying haggis

you can do 20A radials with 2.5mm


----------



## MikeG.

I'm honestly not clear why this is even a question. A small workshop, under 30 sq m........... What is the argument for diverting from the standard and all-but universal ring main? There is no great power demand, no great complication, easy accessibility of wiring. I don't understand what benefit there can be with doing something different.


----------



## DBT85

Well if one is unsure you ask a question. Often better and more pleasant than doing it and someone coming along and telling you you did it wrong or made a dumb choice.

There will no doubt be people that would suggest using radials over rings.


----------



## MikeG.

Just to be clear, I'm asking out of ignorance, rather than out of any certainty that a ring main is the right answer.


----------



## DBT85

Not sure there is a right answer Mike. All depends on the layout and stuff I suppose. If the CU is in the middle of the wall and you only wanted sockets on that wall for some daft reason, then radials make way more sense than rings. 

In this setting where you're going to bang up way more sockets than a normal room and on every wall you can, a ring just seems to be sensible.

The other question really is do you put up one ring all the way round and then do JB on that ring with 2.5mm drops as spurs for each socket, rather than going up and down for every drop which is a bunch more cable and a little more work. Alternativly I think (and I may be wrong) that you can do 4mm spurs and have more than one socket on it.

In theory you could plug in 2 appliances to a socket that try to suck 26A but from what I can gather the socket will die before the 2.5mm cable will in such a situation as they are only rated to 20A anyway. 

Someone who does the lectrics needs to weigh in.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Well, another productive day. 

Finished all the internal OSB, and external membrane and counter battens. Not sure why I’ve got seven packs of insulation left over, I expected a couple, but never mind, it’ll go in between rafters now. The shell to a great extent is finished. I had sufficient membrane spare to cover the acoustic insulation on the house side, not because it needed it, but more to keep rain off it till the roof is on.

Kinda building up the courage to start the roof on my own, it was going to be a two man job with pre-made trusses, this changed to a two man job cut vaulted roof, and now either wait until restrictions are lifted so I can get the help in, or just crack on with it alone.

Meanwhile, after talking to my electrician I can at least start routing services to the workshop. He is basing circuits on a 32A ring main, separate 16A socket, lighting and a wall curtain heater or two. He said to put 40mm trunk around ceiling perimeter and conduit drops from that. There will be seven 600x600 led panels plus task lighting, six in the main workshop, one in the plant room where the extractor and compressor will live. There will also be a small sink in there, and probably a kettle. Fortunately I have drainage right outside the rear of the plant room. Garden sockets and lights will be powered from the workshop consumer unit as well. I’ve got a dual RCD six way consumer unit, but that stuff is above my pay grade. 

I drove a 1.2m earth rod in at the workshop end ready for hooking earth up. Wall has been drilled from the office to run a couple of Ethernet cables, which fortunately came out near the point the SWA cable is gong to start its journey. 

Need to add a new cupboard by the meter cupboard to put a 100A Fused isolator. From the meter cupboard, a service block in the meter cupboard will split the supply to both house consumer unit and workshop isolator, then on to the workshop in SWA. Fortunately there is a service provider switch in the meter cupboard to kill the power when my sparky comes to split the load so no need to pull the main fuse. 

There will be two conduits run in a trench with draw cables in case I’ve missed something in the future, and will pick up the blue water pipe halfway to the workshop. 

Cutting out the wall to accommodate the new service box raised a few eyebrows when the missus came out to see what the grinding and hammering was about, to find a gaping hole in the wall and a pile of rubble.

That job is to be continued tomorrow.


----------



## flying haggis

if you are putting another meter box in next to the existing one, check that the original one might have a lintel above it so the new box might need one too


----------



## Sheptonphil

That is the extent of the hole already made, it's a mini version of the meter box. I have a 140mm x 500mm steel plate to bridge over the box.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Services now dug in from the house to workshop, could only go to 14” as hit bedrock. I’ve put tape six inches above as a warning, but there’s no way I’m digging 25 metres of bedrock up. 

The turf went back down great afterwards, so should soon be back or square one.

[attachment=0]0B6EF388-C8C5-4154-BB13-3E5D8CFF0F7C.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=1]B3920978-46E3-4B83-8800-3B493EEC81E3.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=2]1D9589EC-EF2E-4C71-98AA-65D95C65111F.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=3]5A095615-DCC9-4DBA-8C53-A391FE9DFE36.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=4]471BBE38-43CF-4F9E-A51A-5AE8F5CFDF89.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=5]54B60DD5-330F-41D1-ABF9-DB47893C25BF.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=6]EE603BA3-0E09-4DF0-A64D-50BA341C1DDE.jpeg[/attachment]


----------



## Sheptonphil

Rained off Thursday and Friday and not allowed to do noisy work over the weekends, management doesn’t want me to annoy neighbours, but it turned fine today so got on with the ceiling. 

Managed to get hold of twenty off 14-17 feet lengths of 7x2 reclaimed ceiling joists (Two were 8x2) for £100. Had 200-300 nails to remove, but well worth it. This is some seriously good wood, straight grained, hard as hell, no knots. I’m putting in a flat ceiling. I’m having a fairly shallow pitch roof at 22.5degrees and the amount of space to just store more [email protected] that ‘will come in handy one day’ wasn’t worth preserving. I shall insulate and plaster board the ceiling then install six 600mm led panels. I’ll put an access panel in for future use for access to services though.

















Trimmers to go in tomorrow to fill between first joist which is at 600mm and end wall in same orientation rafters will go, else the rafters wouldn’t have cleared the first joist. Not sure if I need noggins as well, but I’ve got the off cuts of the joists left over, so may as well add them in. All joists were fixed with 70mm heavy duty angle brackets with 45mm Tec screws on diagonally opposing sides and toe nailed other side. The walls were 6-8mm out of plumb before, but they were pulled in line and secured plumb. They’re going nowhere now. 

I’ll put my P5 22mm boards on the ceiling temporarily to use as a platform when building the cut roof. I managed a Wickes delivery for this week.


----------



## DBT85

Looking like good progress despite everything!

Those evolution sliding saws do a good shift despite the cost. I think mine was £65 refurbished from evolution directly on ebay!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2496r66m said:


> Looking like good progress despite everything!
> 
> Those evolution sliding saws do a good shift despite the cost. I think mine was £65 refurbished from evolution directly on ebay!


The saw is decent enough for this type of work for sure. The evolution ‘cut everything with one blade’ blade, cuts nothing nicely, kinda hacks it off, so I use a Saxton 80 tooth tct blade and get a perfect cut. It’s done all the framework, the joists and will see the rafters through for sure. 

It’s starting to feel more like a building now


----------



## Sheptonphil

The whole week was a washout here in the South West. Finally managed to make my ridge beam and purlin supports on Friday.

Saturday the support posts were installed along with the ridge beam and a couple of rafters clamped on to check alignment and position of the purlins posts. Being a noise free zone weekends (SWMBO), construction is limited so have to wait till Monday to fit the purlins across and start to mark the seat cuts for the rafters. 

Looking like a fine week ahead, so hopefully the roof construction can be finished ready for slating.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A little more slow progress today

These lumps of timber are hard work on your own, 5m lengths of 7x2 are a fair weight. The 8x3 purlins even more so. 

Still, both purlins raised and installed, alignment between ridge and wall plate confirmed with string. 

The first four rafters are now cut in, three cuts, for ridge, purlin and wall plate, not sure if they’re crows feet or bird mouth, but I do know the rafter is seated nicely on all the contact points. 

I’ve used a steel plate to join the rafters over the ridge beam and secured them at the the purlin and wall plate with brackets.

Wet tomorrow, but come Wednesday I hope to finish the last eighteen rafters. The first ones I made fitted snug along the length of the ridge in all three places, so I can use it as a pattern to cut the others one at a time, and check each as I go.


----------



## DBT85

How did you find the long lengths for twist and stuff? All nicely straight?

Always a bit of a guessing game unless you are able to pick it yourself.

Also, is that a rather large step to get into the door?


----------



## Sheptonphil

I struck lucky with the roofing timbers. It was a single lorry order from a timber yard in Birmingham the day before they closed for covid. I had ordered all C16 graded, but they supplied C24 at the same money. Every length is straight, no crowning at all, and no twist. I used string between wall plate and ridge in case there was an unseen bow in a rafter, and didn’t want to set the purlin to a bent piece of wood. The rafters just touch all three edges when rested on them . 

The doorway bottoms are yet to be cut away. There are two pieces of 4x2 at present which will be removed in all three doorways, I’ll cut them out when I’ve put the roof on and stopped banging things around. At least there is no chance of anything becoming mis-aligned this way. 

The step in will end up being about a brick and three quarters outside and one brick inside by the time the threshold is fitted. I’m putting a custom made stable door on the front with a large fixed window in the top half.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Outer gable finished, all stud work and membrane fitted with the battens ready to take cladding. Middle batten to fix yet, couldn’t reach it over the gable top so will do when the fence is down to do cladding. 

Couple more rafters cut, hopefully the rest tomorrow.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":2oxppr2y said:


> I struck lucky with the roofing timbers. It was a single lorry order from a timber yard in Birmingham the day before they closed for covid. I had ordered all C16 graded, but they supplied C24 at the same money. Every length is straight, no crowning at all, and no twist. I used string between wall plate and ridge in case there was an unseen bow in a rafter, and didn’t want to set the purlin to a bent piece of wood. The rafters just touch all three edges when rested on them .
> 
> The doorway bottoms are yet to be cut away. There are two pieces of 4x2 at present which will be removed in all three doorways, I’ll cut them out when I’ve put the roof on and stopped banging things around. At least there is no chance of anything becoming mis-aligned this way.
> 
> The step in will end up being about a brick and three quarters outside and one brick inside by the time the threshold is fitted. I’m putting a custom made stable door on the front with a large fixed window in the top half.



May I ask which merchant? I'm only down in Worcester so Davies Timber up there might well be my source when the time comes.

That makes sense now about the door. I saw it with the bricks and the timber and I thought "that's going to be a pain to step over!"


----------



## Sheptonphil

I place the order through my local independent store. Whilst he carries good stock of ‘normal’ timber stock, he only stocks up to 4.8m lengths, I needed 5.2 metre rafters plus the heavy stock for ridges etc. He managed to get all the roofing timbers, inc ridge and purlins, plus another twenty lengths of 4x2 and eighteen sheets of OSB from his Birmingham wholesale wood yard the day before they closed.


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":325thr2r said:


> ..........The step in will end up being about a brick and three quarters outside and one brick inside by the time the threshold is fitted..........



I'd strongly recommend that you design that away. That's just a trip hazard. You really don't want to step over something at a threshold, and particularly in a workshop where you might be carrying stuff, or even trying to manouevre heavy machinery in or large pieces of furniture out. I can't see anything you gain by having such a step.


----------



## Sheptonphil

No problem Mike, didn't see it that way. Can certainly be designed out of the equation.

I can make threshold the only step over, so in to workshop, at floor level


----------



## Sheptonphil

No more rafters today, as I’ve finished the gable end, I thought I’d be better off finishing the house side rather than fighting in amongst narrow rafter space.

Built the stub wall at the end by the ante room so it carries the ends of the first three rafters house side. I think I’m going to use slates on this bit instead of cladding. 

After fixing the first rafter I set the position for the continuous dry soaker. I’d bought one with the flashing and lip built in. A bit more of a pain to mark out and setup but means that I won’t have to do separate flashing after the soaker is fixed when the battens are on the roof. I figured it was easier to put the work in now so it was ready to put in and seal after battening but before slating. 

Both flashing channels have been cut in the house wall and the soaker dry fitted to make sure everything will be aligned when the battening is on, then final fix on the next four rafters. 

Think I can get the rest done before the weekend, and clear the floorboards off the ceiling joists before the rains come again on Monday. 

Scaffold tower arrives Monday to make the slating a bit easier rather than working off a ladder.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A productive couple of days.

All rafters now cut and fixed front and back. 

Membrane has been tacked on in case the rains come Monday, I thought it would be easier to fix it on when I can walk on the joists and boards rather than try and fight it balancing on roofing battens whilst working my way up. It also means I don’t have to cover the floorboards which are being left out the way on the ceiling joists for now, or all the tools on the temporary work bench. The inside to a fair degree is now water tight. 

Hopefully tomorrow I’ll cut the rafter tails and add the facia, I can then install the eaves tray, finish off the last section of membrane nearest eaves and fix eaves ventilation strip. 

I think the heavy work is now done, there’s a lot of cladding to do, but each board shouldn’t be too bad.
















Bit of a tidy up due, before the next phase.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A good day today.

The scaffold tower arrived midday, but by then the rafters were measured with a spare piece of fascia and a bit of guttering to see how long to leave them to allow the gutter to discharge into the house down pipe. 

A 45mm rafter over hang from wall plate plus the fascia board makes the down pipe in line with the existing house one, making for an easy job to join in, the front roof will be a little more involved. 

Rafters were trimmed off plumb, and the fascia board fitted to the garden side eaves. The ventilation strip was attached to the fascia top, eaves trays and the chunky corrugated tray tacked on. Despite a force eight blowing across the garden all afternoon, I managed to fight the last piece of membrane on the the lawn and cut it to rough size before round two on the roof, filling the lower section to the eaves. 

All looked good so far. 

I made an enormous tri square just to check the run of the roof and wall plate from the house wall. All the time earlier in the build checking and double checking for square has paid dividends. I can work off the wall plates which are square to the house and gable end. 

Setting the battens for the first two rows of slates was a bit trial and error, I screwed them temporarily in a couple of places to test the layout. I knew the gauge afterwards would be 245mm for a 110mm head-lap.

Finally figured it out, nailed the first two battens, made spacers to set the rest and started in earnest. 

After the first ten rows I had a nasty thought, buttocks, I wasn’t meant to nail batten to the gable end rafter, the dry verge profile slides under the batten ends and nail through both. I shall have to cut through those nails tomorrow. Lesson learned! Dry verge profile was scheduled for delivery last Thursday, but not arrived yet. 

More battening tomorrow, finishing the back and make a start on the front.


----------



## MikeG.

You might well be able to pry those nails up rather than cutting them. Get your claw hammer under the batten carefully and prise. This is a common mistake, and I've done it myself many times. I've never yet had to cut a nail.


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## Sheptonphil

Thanks again Mike, will definitely give that a shot first. I’ve got a thin pry bar, will tuck it in my belt before I go up tomorrow.

Just had another thought, although the verge profile isn’t here yet, I do have the soaker flashing, so could get that installed over the battens before moving the scaffold to the rear. 

The plan in the absence of verge tomorrow, is finish batten and soaker at rear, move scaffold tower to front, do batten and soaker and by then verge trim should be here to do slating at front, fit guttering, then move tower back to rear to do rear slates, ridge tiles and gutter.


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## MikeG.

It can be useful to have a scrap of ply or an off-cut of batten up there with you to cushion the membrane from the hammer (or pry bar). You might have to pry up the batten a little from the next rafter along, too.


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## Sheptonphil

Well, Mike, it took the hammer and pry bar to ease the battens up. Half brought the nail out, the other six drew the nail through the batten, they were ring shank nails fired from the Paslode. I used the pry bar to ease the batten to one side and remove the nail. Shan’t make that mistake again!

Rest of battening at rear finished and the soaker sealed in to the wall chase. I filled the chase with Geocel roofers seal and sprung the built in lip in the channel. The soaker is a clever design, springing in to the chase due to its moulded shape which means you have to squeeze the profile to install it and it opens again when slotted in. I’ll leave it a couple of days and run a bead of sealer on the outside edge. 

Most of the front rafters cut and fascia fitted. Just the stub wall to do tomorrow. Eaves ventilation system fixed in and the last piece of membrane laid on. 

Twenty one rows of battens fixed in place, no nails in the end rafters where dry verge is going this time  ( dry verge didn’t turn up today either  ). 

I’ve started to load slates on to the roof front and back. A single pack of fifteen is about all I can carry up at once, so about forty trips to get them there. 

Tomorrow, final three rafters and fascia, ventilation and membrane, then front soaker. Probably spend the rest of the day loading the roof.


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## DBT85

Ahh its looking excellent and I'm getting jealous!


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## MikeG.

Great stuff Phil.

I'm not sure how much roofing you've done, but if you're new to it have a good think about how you are going to do the ridge. Lack of space and access are the big issues......you need quite a lot of stuff up there with you, and you need somewhere for your feet. You've also got to be able to get off the roof afterwards! If you're experienced........sorry for the egg sucking lesson, granny. :lol:


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG. said:


> Great stuff Phil.
> 
> I'm not sure how much roofing you've done, but if you're new to it have a good think about how you are going to do the ridge. Lack of space and access are the big issues......you need quite a lot of stuff up there with you, and you need somewhere for your feet. You've also got to be able to get off the roof afterwards! If you're experienced........sorry for the egg sucking lesson, granny. :lol:



Hi Mike, thanks, means a lot coming from you. 

The only roofing I’ve done before was box section steel sheeting on a 8’x8’ and a few felt roofs, nothing over 8’x6’!

This my first shot at ‘proper’ roofing and tiling of any sort, and was intended to be done by a roofing mate. Instead he tells me which YouTube to watch (and which to ignore) and I pass the proposed materials list to him before ordering. As you know, it was meant to be a trussed roof, again installed with help, not me doing my first cut roof on my own, and battened and slated by a roofer and his mate not me alone. I’m not afraid of hard work or learning new skills it just takes me a bit longer to do properly as I want this workshop to be a quality build and maintenance free for many years, and this type of build is new to me. 

I think I can slate two thirds verge side of it before trapping myself in. I’ve bought some ladder hooks to go over the ridge, so was thinking I could use a hooked ladder to place on slates already laid to finish the last third by the house each side, then use it to do the dry ridge. I’ve got carpet if needed to lay on slates before laying ladder on it. At least the scaffold tower means I can get materials to eaves height without too much trouble, just a lot of effort.  

At 22.5 degrees it’s not too bad a pitch to climb all over, but my roof climbing days were far behind me I thought, I’m not built like a mountain goat. This is definitely a learn as I go build.


----------



## MikeG.

Don't, whatever you do, place a ladder on slates. The risk of breakage is high, and the only way to repair without stripping all the slates in the triangle above the broken one, is with tingles. 

My approach to ridges is this. You need access at the gable, be that ladder or, preferably, scaffolding. Slate one side of the roof right to the top, and on the other side, leave two courses off. You'll do these as you go. Start at the far end, furthest from the gable, and work your way back towards your ladder/ scaffolding. You need to balance a bucket of mortar, tools, crocks, ridge tiles, and slates up there, as well as having nails and your cut top row of slates. You're sitting on the ridge facing the side which has the missing courses of slate, and so all your work is to the side of you......and all your materials are in the way of getting on and off the roof, on your other side. It needs real organisation to make it work, and it's so much easier if you have someone who can hand you stuff. Getting on and off the roof past that lot with only one batten to walk on is something of a schlep.


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## Sheptonphil

DBT85":13n5ietq said:


> Ahh its looking excellent and I'm getting jealous!


It’s getting quite exciting as it’s coming together. 

I’ve plenty of experience in general DIY but this is a totally different proposition. 

I have really surprised myself, the situation as is, means I’ve had to do it myself or wait months, maybe till next year to achieve this. I’ve done jobs I never had a clue about and some I never thought I’d even attempt let alone accomplish alone. 

How is your planning progressing?


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## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1z49vc2d said:


> Don't, whatever you do, place a ladder on slates. The risk of breakage is high, and the only way to repair without stripping all the slates in the triangle above the broken one, is with tingles.
> 
> My approach to ridges is this. You need access at the gable, be that ladder or, preferably, scaffolding. Slate one side of the roof right to the top, and on the other side, leave two courses off. You'll do these as you go. Start at the far end, furthest from the gable, and work your way back towards your ladder/ scaffolding. You need to balance a bucket of mortar, tools, crocks, ridge tiles, and slates up there, as well as having nails and your cut top row of slates. You're sitting on the ridge facing the side which has the missing courses of slate, and so all your work is to the side of you......and all your materials are in the way of getting on and off the roof, on your other side. It needs real organisation to make it work, and it's so much easier if you have someone who can hand you stuff. Getting on and off the roof past that lot with only one batten to walk on is something of a schlep.



And there is the rub, I haven’t got access to the gable end. I’ve bartered a weekend to clad gable end, and that was off ladders not scaffold, and I replace all fence panels with new ones as they’re falling apart. 

I see your method, but that isn’t an option unfortunately. 

The slates are Marley trutone, fibre cement jobbies. The ridge is Marley fibre cement ridge caps using Marley dry ridge system, no mortar, just screwed on with the vent roll below.

Gonna have to consult my roofer mate for inspiration, or wait for lockdown to end and get it done by him.


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## DBT85

Sheptonphil":evrvl5by said:


> DBT85":evrvl5by said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh its looking excellent and I'm getting jealous!
> 
> 
> 
> It’s getting quite exciting as it’s coming together.
> 
> I’ve plenty of experience in general DIY but this is a totally different proposition.
> 
> I have really surprised myself, the situation as is, means I’ve had to do it myself or wait months, maybe till next year to achieve this. I’ve done jobs I never had a clue about and some I never thought I’d even attempt let alone accomplish alone.
> 
> How is your planning progressing?
Click to expand...


Yeah I'm in a similar boat, lots of DIY exp doing all sorts but never anything like this. Its a lot of work and while it looks great to have the rafters up and stuff its still a fair way to the end!

My planning is just pootling along. Sadly its not my only focus at the moment so I get a little done here and there. I'm drawing it up in Fusion as more of a challenge to learn the software and parametric design than any real need to do it, though I would really like to have a detailed plan before I start.

Right now all the brick/block and framing is done bar the studs that go in the gable above the top plate. Bricks, blocks, OSB, Rafters etc are all in there and it all scales properly so someone else could use it and choose a different size and it will just resize everything and pick a new pitch and tell them how many blocks, brick, studs, etc they would need.

Hopefully I can get the planning application sorted once I'm happy and then I'll have to wait for that to all start up again as I think a lot of it has shut down at the moment. I only want planning to go 1m from the boundary rather than 2m and to be honest I might not even bother. My only real concern is building it and someone coming along to inspect an disagreeing on where the boundary lies. Myself and my neighbour (who lived here before me and also put the fence in) agree that its the inside face of the fence, but that fence is also in the middle of a bush.

The site clearing hasn't even begun on the surface let alone below!

For the moment I live vicariously!


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## Sheptonphil

Today’s progress was awkward on the whole. I started working on the stub wall, it’s tucked in a tight space one metre wide and no way to setup the scaffold. This has meant all work on the three rafters and fascia, had to be done off a ladder. I’ve managed to set the rafter length so when the slates run up the roof they will finish with whole slates at gutter point. I may have to trim off 20mm, but didn’t want to have a little bit of slate at the edge. So final three rafters cut, fascia fitted along with the eaves vent kit. I’ve finished the membrane for the small gable and stub wall. No battening on this bit yet as management will have say as to whether the cladding is taken up to the verge and fascia or use slates instead. Of course each needs the battens in a different orientation, so I thought it prudent not to batten at all till a decision is made. 

Then it was on to fitting the front soaker and flashing and sealing it into the chase. I’ll put the external sealing bead on front and back soaker flashing on Friday when the chase sealer has set. These looked a simple way of joining the roof to the house wall, but the margin for error is non existent. When slotted in channel on rafters there is no leeway for the building flashing lip. It’s spot on, or just plain wrong and isn’t going to fit. Not sure I’d use this one piece solution again, separate soaker and flashing is more forgiving. Fortunately, with my makeshift jig, the grinder chase was spot on. I wouldn’t have lived down a redundant 30mm deep channel in the wall in the wrong place. 

That done I set about a pair of extra battens to fix the ridge capping to. A 600mm strip of membrane was fitted over the ridge, two battens each side and ridge is ready for slating. It’s the Marley duo ridge dry system, using a roll of vent cloth stuck to the slates, then screw through the fibre cement ridge tiles, no mortar, no leaks. 

A good tidy up planned for tomorrow, then load the roof with slates ready for the arrival of the verge profile, now promised for Friday. 

After Mikes reservations, I’m a little unsure how to proceed with laying the Fibre Cement Slates, but whatever happens, the slates have to end up on the roof and the roofing fairies are on lockdown at the moment so when guess it’s down to me to get them up there. Even if I have to give in and get a real proper roofer to lay them some time in the future, the cost will be lessened by me doing the donkey work. 

Pics don’t seem much different, the visual is a little more subtle today, butthe day was none the less quite fruitful.











o


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## MikeG.

DBT85":3r1rzggy said:


> .......My only real concern is building it and someone coming along to inspect an disagreeing on where the boundary lies. Myself and my neighbour (who lived here before me and also put the fence in) agree that its the inside face of the fence, but that fence is also in the middle of a bush.......



Don't worry, they're not solicitors or surveyors. They will rely on you to tell them where the boundary is if it ever becomes an issue. My experience is that they really don't give a damn in rural settings......it's only when there is an adjacent property whose interests they have to look out for that the boundary ever becomes an issue unless you absolutely take the mickey.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":14u73br1 said:


> My only real concern is building it and someone coming along to inspect an disagreeing on where the boundary lies. Myself and my neighbour (who lived here before me and also put the fence in) agree that its the inside face of the fence, but that fence is also in the middle of a bush.


When planning officer came round he wasn’t really too concerned with exact boundary. I’m in a fairly rural town and he just glanced around, took an overview of location and then when I said it was a shame I couldn’t go forward of my front house line but there was dead space left, said it was behind a wall, no problem, just alter the plan and email it to him. Planning officers are quite amiable if you’re not a complete numpty with them.


----------



## RogerS

Sheptonphil":3el6smep said:


> ...or wait for lockdown to end and get it done by him.



No, you don't have to wait. There's no reason why he shouldn't come to you because that is where his work is.


----------



## MikeG.

RogerS":py4eccgp said:


> Sheptonphil":py4eccgp said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...or wait for lockdown to end and get it done by him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't have to wait. There's no reason why he shouldn't come to you because that is where his work is.
Click to expand...


One of the councils I deal with a lot isn't doing any Planning work at all at the moment. No officers are going out, no site notices are being posted, no decisions are being made, no reports are being written. The only thing that happens is that your drawings are validated (or not) and put in a non-moving queue.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":2qnu5szm said:


> DBT85":2qnu5szm said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......My only real concern is building it and someone coming along to inspect an disagreeing on where the boundary lies. Myself and my neighbour (who lived here before me and also put the fence in) agree that its the inside face of the fence, but that fence is also in the middle of a bush.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry, they're not solicitors or surveyors. They will rely on you to tell them where the boundary is if it ever becomes an issue. My experience is that they really don't give a damn in rural settings......it's only when there is an adjacent property whose interests they have to look out for that the boundary ever becomes an issue unless you absolutely take the mickey.
Click to expand...


Yeah I thought boundaries were a bit more hard and fast but it seems as long as you and your neighbour have agreed that the boundary is this side of the hedge or that side of the fence post all is ok. Lucky my neighbour is my wifes father I guess and also the man who put the fence in in the first place 20 years ago.

I think I've decided now not to bother with planning as it doesn't actually gain me anything anyway other than a few sqm of garden that won't be missed in the 300 odd that there are out the back alone. I just claimed about 30 back from hacking a different hedge down!
Sorry to take your thread on a tangent Phil!


----------



## RogerS

MikeG.":f4jn0d45 said:


> RogerS":f4jn0d45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheptonphil":f4jn0d45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...or wait for lockdown to end and get it done by him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't have to wait. There's no reason why he shouldn't come to you because that is where his work is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One of the councils I deal with a lot isn't doing any Planning work at all at the moment. No officers are going out, no site notices are being posted, no decisions are being made, no reports are being written. The only thing that happens is that your drawings are validated (or not) and put in a non-moving queue.
Click to expand...


They need to take a leaf out of Northumberland then who are doing "visits "...by you sending in photos.


----------



## Sheptonphil

RogerS":p9xe15wa said:


> Sheptonphil":p9xe15wa said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...or wait for lockdown to end and get it done by him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't have to wait. There's no reason why he shouldn't come to you because that is where his work is.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately he has elderly parents residing with him and is not working anywhere until restrictions are lifted and there is no chance of him contaminating anyone at home. Will work with him on a solution remotely.


----------



## RogerS

Sheptonphil":1ewg9zre said:


> RogerS":1ewg9zre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheptonphil":1ewg9zre said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...or wait for lockdown to end and get it done by him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't have to wait. There's no reason why he shouldn't come to you because that is where his work is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately he has elderly parents residing with him and is not working anywhere until restrictions are lifted and there is no chance of him contaminating anyone at home. Will work with him on a solution remotely.
Click to expand...

Mmmm..I can understand where he is coming from (and his concerns) but his thinking, as you probably already know, is flawed. What does he mean by 'restrictions are lifted'? As I said, he doesn't have any restrictions. The only ones are self-imposed. The risk to him being infected will remain until a vaccine is available. If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking elsewhere for a roofer.


----------



## MikeG.

I wouldn't criticise the actions of anyone who is sharing a household with highly vulnerable people, and who decides that their safety is more important than his/ her job. From the very elderly to cancer and transplant patients on immuno-suppressants, there are an awful lot of people for whom covid 19 would just be a death sentence, and those around them should be doing everything they can not to endanger them. Bravo to the roofer who decides that keeping people alive is more important than nailing on some slates.


----------



## RogerS

MikeG.":dnmm7tus said:


> I wouldn't criticise the actions of anyone who is sharing a household with highly vulnerable people, and who decides that their safety is more important than his/ her job. From the very elderly to cancer and transplant patients on immuno-suppressants, there are an awful lot of people for whom covid 19 would just be a death sentence, and those around them should be doing everything they can not to endanger them. Bravo to the roofer who decides that keeping people alive is more important than nailing on some slates.



Where am I criticising him ? You have misinterpreted me completely.


----------



## MikeG.

OK. Apologies then.


----------



## Lons

I wouldn't criticise an individual decision either Mike but agree with Roger. If the guy is self employed and continues with that attitude then he's giving up his business as it will be a very long time, if ever before the risk is minimal. If the materials are left exposed and not handled for a few days any remote possibility of contamination is removed.

Had I still been working I would have assessed there is virtually no risk of catching the virus while working alone on a roof, there's much more risk of fall or other injury so I don't see where he's coming from.

His livelihood so his choice of course.


----------



## MikeG.

I don't wish to divert this thread, but that really is over-simplifying the situation, and making some big assumptions.


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## Sheptonphil

We have the mother in law with us till it’s safe to send her home alone (she would be round her friends every day, up the supermarket daily for her paper, have neighbours round, it’s only a cup of tea and a cake after all, stand at the gate to chat) she’s a social nightmare. Missus won’t have anyone in the house, or allow my mates round to help, ‘you never know’. Guaranteed if we did get infected, it would have been something I introduced somehow. 

I will look at another roofer if my mate can’t come up with a working plan, I have faith in him.


----------



## Lons

MikeG.":3adc0i6w said:


> I don't wish to divert this thread, but that really is over-simplifying the situation, and making some big assumptions.


Ok I don't want to divert it either Mike, neither of us know the guy or his personal circumstances so I was making assumptions which I shouldn't have but from my perspective it's how I would assess risk if I still was in business which was the same industry and bearing in mind that both my wife and self are in the at risk category.

If my assumption from the OP photos is correct in that although much easier with 2 people it can be a one man roofing job then where's the Corvid risk apart from leaving home and maybe filling up with fuel?


----------



## Sheptonphil

A bit of a tidy up as the verge profile was delayed till late today. It’s looking a bit less like a building site in the garden, at least for a while, the cladding is scheduled for Wednesday delivery.






I’ve shifted 800kg of tiles today, 400Kg are up on the front roof, 300kg on the back stacked ready for fitting. The last few packs are on the scaffold ready to finish the back. They have a bloom of salts on them, but this washes off easily so will leave that for the first rains. They are new slates, but weren’t stored completely dry and as they dried slowly it left the salts behind. I’ve 90 new ones this week, so will put them at the back, it won’t matter they are a different colour cos of the bloom, till they all weather together. 

It was a task to get them across the garden, on to the scaffold then up the roof and distribute across the battens on both sides. At least the roof structure is still up, and it’s solid, so that has proven its integrity. Nearly a tonne of tiles and best part as much again of wood would not have been a pretty sight in a heap on the ground.  














The verge profile arrived at 5pm, so only had time to plan batten overhang which will leave space for the cladding edging profile to sit under overhang and leave drip strip functioning. 40mm of batten overhang will sit inside the S profile and leave 24mm clear underneath for the cladding edging. It’s in 5m lengths, perfect with no joints an any of the three verges.


----------



## DBT85

Blimey a good days work!

I feel your pain, my site is 30m from the delivery point. That's gonna take me a while to move it all!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":27hnbsgu said:


> Blimey a good days work!
> 
> I feel your pain, my site is 30m from the delivery point. That's gonna take me a while to move it all!


It feels achingly like a good days work. At least here the access isn’t too bad and it’s fairly flat, but still 30m from small delivery trucks to build site, then through building to rear roof. Large vehicles, it’s 60m haul like when the flooring turned up on a forty footer with Hiab. 

Probably best the profile was late, it gave me a time out to do the cleanup, scarify the lawn under the pallets I put down, and hoover the rubbish up with the mower. Dogs are happy now, they sit in the lounge looking out the French doors, for the past six weeks looking at a big pile of wood that kept getting replenished. With no pile now, the local cats are spotted, and when doors are open, it’s like the start of a greyhound race, except our dogs are no match for the local cats, or squirrels. 

If I can work quietly, I should get a chance to put verge trim on tomorrow, but not allowed to tile on Sunday as it would involve banging a hammer all day.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Sheptonphil":l9mdni9p said:


> That’s exactly what it is. Over engineered for total peace of mind.
> 
> I’ve got the membrane, counter battens, osb and insulation on site so that may be doable, as I can’t do the roof alone.



Looking back through my thought process as the build developed, two comments from the the 1st April seem pertinent. 

Over engineered, but after today, and nearly a tonne going on the structure it made me glad I went the extra strength for my own peace of mind, and ‘I can’t do the roof alone’ was definitely proved wrong, it shows we just don’t know our own capabilities until the chips are down.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah I can imagine as you're clambering over the top your were a little happier that you had that double top plate and 400c studs haha.


----------



## Lons

=D> Looking really good now, it's a great feeling when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, hope the weather holds for you as it's not safe when the slates are wet.

Is it the missus stops you working on Sundays Phil?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2e3i22ev said:


> Yeah I can imagine as you're clambering over the top your were a little happier that you had that double top plate and 400c studs haha.


Oh, I’ve put more bracing in since then, I’ll add some pictures tomorrow of the extra bracing and extra steel ties, just in case.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":3qhd0cgd said:


> DBT85":3qhd0cgd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I can imagine as you're clambering over the top your were a little happier that you had that double top plate and 400c studs haha.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I’ve put more bracing in since then, I’ll add some pictures tomorrow of the extra bracing and extra steel ties, just in case.
Click to expand...

It'll be all bracing and no space for tool if you carry on!


----------



## Sheptonphil

Lons":zak6hp2u said:


> =D> Looking really good now, it's a great feeling when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, hope the weather holds for you as it's not safe when the slates are wet.
> 
> Is it the missus stops you working on Sundays Phil?


Hi Lons, yes, the management doesn’t like me making a noise to irritate the neighbours. 

It’s probably as well, I’d get so involved in the project to the detriment of everything else that needs doing, the little jobs that takeS months like the latch on the side gate that need two screws, evidently I can put five hundred in the workshop build, but not two in the gate latch!

Managed to get the verge profile fitted this morning, then set out the first three courses of slates to give the double lap. 

The profile covers the batten ends and holds the edges of the slates down as well as sealing the verge edge. It’s one continuous length from ridge to gutter, with an overhang wide enough to put the cladding edge profile into. 






I thought it would be a fairly quick laying of slates after that, but no, it was painfully slow. I managed the first three rows off the scaffold, then it was time to hop on the roof. That’s where my planning fell apart. I had far too many slates in the way and I couldn’t move for them. It seems they all needed to be three rows higher and more to the right. So the next hour was spent shuffling them about to give me working room, and let the space be self creating as I go up the roof. The system works now, but ate into the afternoon so much I only achieve a fraction of the roof. Still, this is a marathon not a sprint, so at least I can approach it on Monday with a decree of knowledge I didn’t have before as far as a system. 






Shows the verge profile in place. 






Still going to come to an empasse eventually, but the way I was working I think I can tile the whole roof and escape over the ridge. Then do the same the other side, and by then I should be able to work out a safe escape route. We’ll see how that pans out next week.

Still a good weeks’ progress though. Weather looks like it’s going to hold dry for the next week as well.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":32d2jr1t said:


> It'll be all bracing and no space for tool if you carry on!


All the extra was in the roof space against gable end and house wall, plenty of room for play equipment.


----------



## Inspector

There must be a reason that escapes me but would it have been better to start at the lower right corner and then end up at the left upper corner? Same for the other side so the last few slates would take you off at the outside peak without having to be on any slates at the end?

Pete


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector":wdwzxdh8 said:


> There must be a reason that escapes me but would it have been better to start at the lower right corner and then end up at the left upper corner? Same for the other side so the last few slates would take you off at the outside peak without having to be on any slates at the end?
> 
> Pete


That would have been the ideal way had I have had access outside the gable end for a scaffold, but that is one luxury I don’t have. I am within a gnat’s whisker of the boundary and the best I could maybe have achieved was a ladder at ridge point from neighbours garden(he sighted gable line when the uncut battens were there and reminded me that three battens were over the boundary, he didn’t realise they were going to be cut back). I am not sure that would be a safe way of doing it, I’ll find a safer solution house side. This first half I can do the final two rows from over the ridge, before starting the second side. I don’t want to push my luck with next door, we only moved in in January, and have negotiated access for ladder to apply the cladding by renewing all the fence at our cost.


----------



## Inspector

Thanks. Your neighbour is a jerk. Someday when he wants access through your property you remind him of this. Then decide if you want to get even, be just as big a jerk and deny him or or let him and be the bigger man. Some people never learn you reap what you sow. 

Pete


----------



## MikeG.

Hmmmm......that verge profile is awful. That would rather spoil the roof for me, I'm afraid.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1btkgtk0 said:


> Hmmmm......that verge profile is awful. That would rather spoil the roof for me, I'm afraid.


Why’s that Mike? Would you have used a cloaking board and cement fill?
The only bit showing is the red line. I used a profile for the very reason I will not be able to get back to it in the future, so wanted something maintenance free.


----------



## MikeG.

Not with slate, no. The pointing always fails with slate as there isn't enough texture for it to get hold of. No, I would have taken the cladding material hard up to the underside of the overhanging slate.

I hate plastic on a building, and there are positions no doubt where the only thing you can see of the roof is a strip of black plastic.

Here's my workshop from the rear: I used a little verge board over the feather-edge board because of the overhang:


----------



## Sheptonphil

Didn’t even consider taking the cladding tight to the underside. I guess I could have cut battens short, used a 3x1 to batten out verge and cover end of slate battens then tile over hang. 

Oh well, it’s on now, and the only person who will actually see is is the neighbour. I did try for aluminium, but that’s like rocking horse poo to find.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector":1pgtaed3 said:


> Thanks. Your neighbour is a jerk. Someday when he wants access through your property you remind him of this. Then decide if you want to get even, be just as big a jerk and deny him or or let him and be the bigger man. Some people never learn you reap what you sow.
> 
> Pete


To a great extent it’s my fault building to the boundary, it was a calculated risk. If I’d have come in 600-800mm from boundary it would have been easier, but at a too big a loss of space inside. I can work around somehow, when it’s built and occupied I don’t have to sidle up to him any more, and I’ll have the maximum space possible. 

I can bite tongue for a while.


----------



## Lons

Sheptonphil":3sb4hf4j said:


> Inspector":3sb4hf4j said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Your neighbour is a jerk. Someday when he wants access through your property you remind him of this. Then decide if you want to get even, be just as big a jerk and deny him or or let him and be the bigger man. Some people never learn you reap what you sow.
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
> To a great extent it’s my fault building to the boundary, it was a calculated risk. If I’d have come in 600-800mm from boundary it would have been easier, but at a too big a loss of space inside. I can work around somehow, when it’s built and occupied I don’t have to sidle up to him any more, and I’ll have the maximum space possible.
> 
> I can bite tongue for a while.
Click to expand...


While it doesn't apply now during a new build you do have legal rights, just as he does, to enter a neighbours land should you need to carry out essential repairs to your building in future. You should ask for permission preferably in writing but can get a grant of access via a court if he refuses. Not good for neighbour relationships but he sounds as if he's an unreasonable type anyway.
I have great neighbours but over the years I've done favours for all of them so it would be difficult for them to be like yours. :wink:

I had an issue years ago when building a granny extension so a severely disabled mum could live with her daughter, it was on the boundary, neighbours were hugely opposed even though it included removal of an unsightly asbestos clad garage but they got planning and party wall permission and we worked entirely from my customer's property which was very difficult especially pointing up brickwork and keeping their side clean. We needed to cut off some large overhanging branches from one of their trees and they came out screaming and threatened us with violence until I politely said " the branches are your property, I'll drop them over the fence into your garden for you unless you would like us to dispose of them for you without charge". :lol: 
Also needed to erect a small fence between adjoining concrete drives and I served notice that we would need to step on to their drive for a very short period to finish the final panels, they called the police when I did that and the cop just rolled her eyes at them.

It was a horrible job as they did many other things like park a car to stop deliveries, sit outside with neighbours and make loud snide remarks and much worse but it just spurred us on to be polite and professional and the end result when we saw the delight on the face of the old lady with no legs was well worth the harassment we endured.


----------



## Sheptonphil

He's not a total knob, he is letting me use a ladder for cladding. There is a large flower bed along his side, I can understand him not wanting it trashed with scaffold. Like your couple of jobs, it would be easier, but not a problem.


----------



## Lons

Sheptonphil":16yihpou said:


> He's not a total knob, he is letting me use a ladder for cladding. There is a large flower bed along his side, I can understand him not wanting it trashed with scaffold. Like your couple of jobs, it would be easier, but not a problem.



You're going about it the right way Phil, you have to live in harmony with neighbours and he probably was nervous about how your building would look and whether it would impact on his property, once it's all done and he sees you haven't damaged his garden he'll be happy. Maybe invite him in to have a look over a beer as most blokes are interested in workshops.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Lons":ysvxcm13 said:


> Sheptonphil":ysvxcm13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> He's not a total knob, he is letting me use a ladder for cladding. There is a large flower bed along his side, I can understand him not wanting it trashed with scaffold. Like your couple of jobs, it would be easier, but not a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're going about it the right way Phil, you have to live in harmony with neighbours and he probably was nervous about how your building would look and whether it would impact on his property, once it's all done and he sees you haven't damaged his garden he'll be happy. Maybe invite him in to have a look over a beer as most blokes are interested in workshops.
Click to expand...


He’s been round to see the progress a couple of times and we converse over the fence whilst I’m on the ladder or roof, and you can judge the conversation that whilst it is friendly in a civil way, he has major reservations about the whole build size, and while it’s bigger than he thought it would be, he is more reserved and worried than objectionable. Some people are just less open. He always ends the conversation with a polite comment. 

I really have pushed the envelope with this, the biggest visual impact is from his side. All I have is a nice sloping roof, all there is from the road view is a nice sloping roof, he has a 9.5 metre gable wall 4.5 metres to ridge. :shock: He’s a very introvert person and like to keep to him self. I need the access for cladding more than roof, so I’m holding that card to play then, rather than water him off and then not have that access for later. 

It’s a shame the workshop wasn’t being built the other end the house, that neighbour would have put the scaffold up for me, and done half the work just for the fun of it. He is a site first fix chippy and garage warrior, I have popped round to him several times when I hear the table saw going. He has offered to come over if I need help. During this time, I cut all the grass for the verges around our road as council isn’t doing it, and as I walk by I do any neighbours who want it done. We get on really well with all of them.


There is a clause in our deeds about right of access for maintenance, but of course not for construction.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A break on Sunday, but back to the front roof today. 

Once I’d settled in to a routine it was fairly good going for thirty minutes until I saw a 11 tonne lorry drive by and turn into our road. Can’t be my cladding, that’s not due till Wednesday, and I’m not expecting anything else, so I carried on. Three 
minutes later, a shout up from below, “delivery for you”.  

Yep, the cladding turned up two days early. I couldn’t find a forklift truck anywhere in the back garden, so it was a handball job from the lorry 60 yards to the workshop. Luckily the driver was superb, instead of kerbside drop which is all he’s obliged to give, he helped carry the 100 lengths plus trims right to the workshop. He left happy with a good drink in his back pocket. ccasion5: ccasion5:

At 10kg a length that’s another tonne to go on the structureView attachment 39


Then back on to the roof.

Worked steadily up the extended roofline and cut the tile around the profile and over the gutter line for the stub wall. This worked out perfect, there will be the double lap for the first row above the gutter, exactly as if it was a starting fascia. 
This roof is South facing and working in full sun is like a bake house, the slates absorb the heat as well and it was like sitting in an oven. 

Probably why I had to go back one row in a place where I found I’d fitted one slate inside out. :roll: 

By end of day a big chunk of the roof was done, but moreover, I now know how I can finish the slates on both sides without access to the gable end. When fitting the rows, With judicious balancing I can work the row below the one I’m supported on.


----------



## DBT85

Nice to have it even if early!

What did you go for in the end for the cladding? Normal treated feather edge?

How have you found doing the slates overall?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":sdz066wc said:


> Nice to have it even if early!
> 
> What did you go for in the end for the cladding? Normal treated feather edge?
> 
> How have you found doing the slates overall?


Due to the proximity to boundary I had to build 'predominantly non combustible'. I specified fireproof plasterboard inside, rockwool insulation and Hardie Plank fibre cement cladding. Our authority accepts this combination meets the criteria, although it may not meet that classification with all planning authorities. It added about £1200 (hammer) to the cost of as against timber cladding, the worst case scenario was my workshop burned down taking £300 worth of fence with it, but them's the rules. it is ready coloured in twenty one colours so we could pick one that blends with the house and is guaranteed to not require maintenance for 15 years at least.

The Marley Thrutone slates are ok to fit, but never having fitted anything except sheet roofing before (the last one was box profile metal) there is a real learning curve firstly to lay out the first three rows, then nailing firm enough to set the slate but not so hard you trap the disc rivet and cant align the next row because the rivet is in slightly the wrong place. loading out the slates on to the roof caused more problems, I didn't have a clear diagonal working path so had to adjust loading to make it possible to have working room and slates to hand. One big learning curve. 

Have worked out the system now and the slates went on well yesterday. the roof is about 520 slates in total, so its quite slow going. I'll never make a roofer, I think I'm too fussy, in the videos, its two nails, bend the rivet, slate on, two nails, bend the rivet.... Mine is like that but in slow motion, I'm looking for perfect alignment probably to too great an extent. Should hopefully finish off the first side today, maybe make a start on the second. Sheet roofing would have been a whole lot easier, but I had to use slates to match the house roof, so no choice.


----------



## Noggsy

Excellent progress and Thankyou for sharing


----------



## Sheptonphil

Noggsy":39qup45p said:


> Excellent progress and Thankyou for sharing


No problem, it’s steady going and this will serve as a good journal for me as well. It’s so easy to forget where I started and what has been achieved. 

Today was slow going to start with, I had to do the first three courses above the stub wall, which only cover 600mm in total and run the rest along in line with them. It worked out really well, but was so fiddly. It’s a bit like tiling a kitchen, the big areas take a day and show what’s been done, then the cut ones take just as long for little progress. It was like that for the first ninety minutes cutting all fifteen slates to the gutter line and small verge. Then onwards up the roof It was easier, but progress was still slow due to being an awkward place to work against the house. Still, it was all finished by end of day, and I managed to lob a ridge tile on a dry run to check everything is going to work. Perfect alignment.


----------



## DBT85

Looking great Phil, whats after the ridge?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2w0davav said:


> Looking great Phil, whats after the ridge?


Well, before the ridge is the garden side of the roof. If the front is anything to go by, that will be another three day job including the ridge. 

Then it’s on to cladding and guttering. I have that pencilled in to start that next week, culminating in the gable end wall and fence replacement (sweetener for neighbour) being done the weekend of the 30th.


----------



## Lons

I'm thoroughly enjoying this Phil especially as I remember the sore back and knees from slating roofs. Hats off to you for attempting that as a first try and doing a great job to boot. =D> 

One that stands out in my memory was a stone barn built from scratch and which had a 1st floor with 2 large escape Velux on the back and 3 smaller conservation on the front. I had planned and advised 3 but my customer decided 2 was enough despite my protestations so we got the front more than 3/4 slated only to find the next morning she had changed her mind and we had to strip it back again. To say I wasn't amused is an understatement.
She came back later with strawberries, ice cream and a bottle of brandy.  

The barn was approx 15m long and has since become a rather nice little holiday home.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Lons":1i82v5vk said:


> I'm thoroughly enjoying this Phil especially as I remember the sore back and knees from slating roofs. Hats off to you for attempting that as a first try and doing a great job to boot. =D>



Cheers Lons

Yes, knees are going through it, and a sore behind sitting on hard square lathe edges. I’m not built for this, and I did say to the missus it’s one job I may have to hire in. But, here we are, 50% complete with the more straightforward roof to do. It’s slow for me, but quite rewarding when it all comes together as a watertight roof. I’ll also put it down as ‘done that, never again (on this scale)’


----------



## Sheptonphil

A steady start with the first Starting courses taking a while to setup and lay. Then it was up and away.

This side is a plain oblong, single verge that I can’t access so am working away from it as it’s safer. Managed to get 120+ slates on, so just under half. I think there will be 270 on this side. 

Still slow going, but steadily can see this roof coming together. Rain tomorrow night, so hopefully I can get the majority finished by then.


----------



## Lons

Looking good Phil.
Those slates give a nice clean finish, I used them on an extension for my son, very different from that barn I did and a large grade 2 stable conversion where they were reclaimed slates from the old colliery houses and were filthy, soot caked and many had to be cut down to size. They made the roofs look as if they'd been there 100 years but my wife wasn't happy with the state I came home in every night.


----------



## DBT85

Are they legit real slates or dodgy knockoffs like the ones I'm planning on getting?

Are you hoping to toboggan down the roof when you are done? :lol:


----------



## Sheptonphil

Lons":1g01ymdb said:


> Looking good Phil.
> Those slates give a nice clean finish, I used them on an extension for my son, very different from that barn I did and a large grade 2 stable conversion where they were reclaimed slates from the old colliery houses and were filthy, soot caked and many had to be cut down to size. They made the roofs look as if they'd been there 100 years but my wife wasn't happy with the state I came home in every night.


They are certainly going to look sleek when the white bloom is washed ff with the rains. I did clean some up, but was too time consuming to do what will happen naturally. People passing thought I’d used reclaims to give a ‘been there a long time look’. The missus likes it that they are not shiny like the ones I bought last week to top up.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":215zxj85 said:


> Are they legit real slates or dodgy knockoffs like the ones I'm planning on getting?
> 
> Are you hoping to toboggan down the roof when you are done? :lol:



They’re dodgy knock off Marley Thrutone. I bought 440 singles and 12 doubles from the Bay For £250, leftover from a job. I stored them standing and water had dripped on some of the packs. When it dries slowly the salts leech, but is not permanent. Once laid they are really solid, let’s face it, in many places they are three layers thick and two layers every where else. My roofer recons they can be walked on with soft shoes if you’re light enough and walk on the rafter, but I’m not going there, I ain’t light and I don’t know where the rafters are. I won’t even stand up on the battens. My final exit last night was down the roof shuffle bum, my scaffold, ladder and easier exit was that side. Strangely having the bloom on then made them quite grippy. I have worked out a fitting and exit strategy for tomorrow, we’ll see if it’s a workable plan when I’m down(up?) to the last row and ridge. :roll:


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":2de6alcn said:


> DBT85":2de6alcn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are they legit real slates or dodgy knockoffs like the ones I'm planning on getting?
> 
> Are you hoping to toboggan down the roof when you are done? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They’re dodgy knock off Marley Thrutone. I bought 440 singles and 12 doubles from the Bay For £250, leftover from a job. I stored them standing and water had dripped on some of the packs. When it dries slowly the salts leech, but is not permanent. Once laid they are really solid, let’s face it, in many places they are three layers thick and two layers every where else. My roofer recons they can be walked on with soft shoes if you’re light enough and walk on the rafter, but I’m not going there, I ain’t light and I don’t know where the rafters are. I won’t even stand up on the battens. My final exit last night was down the roof shuffle bum, my scaffold, ladder and easier exit was that side. Strangely having the bloom on then made them quite grippy. I have worked out a fitting and exit strategy for tomorrow, we’ll see if it’s a workable plan when I’m down(up?) to the last row and ridge. :roll:
Click to expand...


Ahh I did wonder, I'd seen the eernit as an alternative to the Cembrit. Didn't even think to check ebay for a bargain. That's nearly half price you paid!

Now the important question, how many boxes of nails and the other wee jobbies have you used?

What did you use on the ridge? some of the options are absurdly priced when see one normal slate is a quid.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3qw5zqy8 said:


> Ahh I did wonder, I'd seen the eternit as an alternative to the Cembrit. Didn't even think to check ebay for a bargain. That's nearly half price you paid!
> 
> Now the important question, how many boxes of nails and the other wee jobbies have you used?
> 
> What did you use on the ridge? some of the options are absurdly priced when see one normal slate is a quid.



I opened my third kilo of copper nails today, I reckon they will finish the job without too many left. The rivets I bought a box of 1000, and will use only maybe half that. They’re not overly expensive, so no great shakes. The tiles on the starter courses, edges and tops don’t get one, so not quite one for one and I think I’ll come in at 540 slates in total. 

Now, the ridge, those absurdly expensive ones, Hmm, yes, that’s the ones. I looked at several from £18 upwards. Luckily my ridge goes the short side, 4m long. Had my ridge been the 9.4m length (the way yours is orientated) I may not have used them due to cost. By the time you work out Dry ridge fixing kits, and the low profile, I went with these Marley ones as they are made the same pitch as the roof, dry laid, mechanically fixed and fibre cement the same as the tiles. They were £44 a piece, and I needed five of them including the stop end. So £220 instead of £90 but they come in a 25degree profile. I used roofingsuperstore for all the fittings and extra slates. You have to be careful of delivery costs there though. Order Marley eaves vent kit, delivery is £75!!!!!! Choose Danelaw Hambleside vent kit and delivery is free. I queried delivery with them and they are a bit like Amazon, several companies selling through their portal. Even though Mike detests the verge trims, in my setting they do give a neat edge to the roofline and make the verge edge water and wind proof. In a rural setting, they probably wouldn’t look as good as bargeboard. No external maintenance to the roof or cladding is what I am aiming for, and that is costing me now, but I simply won’t have easy access to do it routinely over the years.


----------



## DBT85

Ahh that's great info thanks. I kept seeing the nails sold by the kilo and I was just thinking "great. So many do I arsing need!"

Yes the ridge is the one I have to think on. There are so many options and I'm not really sure. I too had looked at roofing superstore or was it roofingmegastore.

Probably a dumb question, but did you look at the Cembrit ones? They just screw on.

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/sea ... +dry+ridge

Also, were the first 2 courses cut from one tile? I think I've seen that for the Cembrit ones.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":o9abgbqb said:


> Ahh that's great info thanks. I kept seeing the nails sold by the kilo and I was just thinking "great. So many do I arsing need!"
> 
> Yes the ridge is the one I have to think on. There are so many options and I'm not really sure. I too had looked at roofing superstore or was it roofingmegastore.
> 
> Probably a dumb question, but did you look at the Cembrit ones? They just screw on.
> 
> https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/sea ... +dry+ridge
> 
> Also, were the first 2 courses cut from one tile? I think I've seen that for the Cembrit ones.


There’s approx 520 nails per kilo, I’ll probably use 1200 of the 1500. The cembrit in 25degree were listed as unavailable when I placed my order. With no lead times I just went with the Eternit duo pitch 25degree at £32 +vat. They are 900mm long, the cembrit are 500 I think. These screw on with two 60mm tec screws each side. 

The two base courses are cut from one tile, 245mm and 355mm. You will also end up cutting loads of the doubles, I had a James Hardie carbide tipped knife I bought when installing cement backer board in a shower enclosure, this is the perfect tool for the job. I cut all the tiles on my lap sat on the roof. Five draws of the knife and you get a clean snap every time, no mess, no dust, every cut perfect. You can’t be up and down a roof every time you need a cut tile. You’ll need a 10 pack of HSS 4mm drills, they lose their edge after 20-30 holes, and you’ll be drilling a lot of 4mm holes. 

Day started by cutting the ridge tiles. I cut four of the tiles, the stop end tile can’t be cut and was left at 900mm as you’d remove the overlap tongue, the distance left to the house wall was 3000mm, I made the remaining four ridge tiles the same length at 750mm rather than having a short tile on the end. It was then time to lay more slates. I was optimistic, too optimistic perhaps , I was going to lay all the slates today. 

A little slower going as I was working to the abutment wall which was awkward, but not particularly difficult as I was working against the angle of lay. In the end, I managed all but 50 slates, so they will be finished tomorrow along with fitting the ridge tiles, weather permitting. 

Scaffold Tower is due for return tomorrow, no problem as it’s not really being used now, it’s done it’s job. I have a decent trestle ladder to do the guttering off.


----------



## DBT85

Some great information thanks so much!


----------



## Sheptonphil

Well, the rains never came last night as promised, I had covered the last hole just in case.
A late start today, but was eager to crack on with the last fifty slates. I started in earnest and it soon become apparent I had too much material on the roof to move at all. I needed a system of clearing space but keeping sufficient slates handy so I wasn’t taking fifteen minutes a slate. I had spoken with my roofer, who is still not working and understands the verge situation. He advised if I was careful, I could put a padded ladder on the finished side. He did quantify this with ‘if you break a slate it’ll be a pig of a job to replace it’

I had removed a bedroom carpet the same week as doing the foundation and the recycle centre was shut from that weekend. I still had the roll of carpet, so cut two twenty inch strips three metres long. These I cable tied to each half of my extension ladder and put the roof hooks on one half. I borrowed another ladder to have access at the front stub wall. Having tied the access ladder to Two 4x2’s specially mounted under the fascia to throw the ladder clear of the slate line, I took my first padded ladder up on the roof. I locked this to the access ladder. This was bum twitching time, as not only did I have the ladder there it had to then be converted to a storage platform for the slates. I used spare wall ties placed under the ladder with the short L sticking up between the rungs. I then placed the second ladder with roof hooks up along side it. This meant I could now unload the roof on to my platform, take down any excess and give me a clear working space. 

This worked fine for the next three rows, I then found I was running up to the ridge behind me. As the first four slates had met ridge line, I put the ridge vent roll on the slates and fitted the first of the ridge tiles. As each third tile reached the ridge, I added another ridge tile. Agin this was fine for the first three ridge tiles, then I came to an empasse. I had completely run out of space with three rows of 6.5,6 and 5.5 tile to lay. Time to reorganise the loading. The hooked ladder became the storage and the storage ladder became a crawl ladder, with me face down leaning over the ridge to lay the final three rows. This of course would have been easy had this been verge side, and I had verge access. To lay the tile and a half slates is not as straightforward as a standard slate. There is a need to drill six holes in the correct places, and pass a copper rivet through one from underneath, hold it with extended arms hanging over a ladder And align the slate on to the rivet fixed in the previous row. Cue loads of swear words as the rivet bounces down the roof three times. 

I place my knee in the wrong place and snapped one of the top tiles on the front ridge. No great problem simple to remove that one as it was the very top tile, but I had no spares on the roof, so that was a climb down and back just for not watching where I was moving to. 

Some shuffling around of the ladder positions and I was able to fit the remaining two ridge tiles. Hurray!!!!!!!!    one roof finished, all I had to do was clear the tools and ladders away without breaking anything on the way down. 

The last fifty tiles were a logistical nightmare, I nearly gave in till I figured out I needed to dump a load of material out the way and then work out where to and how. Reminded me of the fox, chicken and grain, trying to juggle everything having it segregated, but to hand. 

If you are thinking of a wide, tall roof, with no access to the verge, and using tiles of any description, get yourself a large drink, sit down and have a good talk to yourself. Then, choose a nice sheet material to use like Coroline. 

The hire company were too busy to collect the scaffold, so whilst it’s off hire, I stored it where it was, and as it was in the way, I used it to add the guttering to the garden side. :wink: 

A weekend to clear the site again, before the next phase, the cladding.


----------



## DBT85

Wow that sounds like it was a fun day. How many fingers in your drinky glass this evening? Haha.

Did you calculate how many tiles you'd need and ordered x extra or did you just use the sqm calculation and then add x? How many did you waste from mistakes or testing that gravity was still working?

It's the last big thing I need to order now!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3q37j07l said:



> Wow that sounds like it was a fun day. How many fingers in your drinky glass this evening? Haha.
> 
> Did you calculate how many tiles you'd need and ordered x extra or did you just use the sqm calculation and then add x? How many did you waste from mistakes or testing that gravity was still working?
> 
> It's the last big thing I need to order now!


Mr Bacardi is going down nicely tonight. 

Working out by sq m is ok, but I worked out I’d use 13.5 slates per row, and twenty rows per side. I ignored the 1m notched bit. That gave me 540 Each row was going to have a tile and half one end or the other, so that’s 20 a side, 40 in total, these 40 account for 60 standard slates. So, 480 plus 40 doubles Then two starter courses, which actually take you nowhere, 13 each side as you get two pieces from each tile. Now 506 plus 40 doubles. Add a finish row at the ridge, again going nowhere in height, 26 more, you only get one out of a tile. Now 532 plus 42. Gravity didn’t claim any, but shuffling up the roof as I fixed them I sat on the edges of some that were loaded in such a way I was falling over myself on the firs side, cost me four or five, some were even then salvaged for starter course on second half. I’d already got 440 and 12 From eBay, so purchased a further 90 and 30 (both were only available in multiples of 15). 

My thinking was I had built a buffer in by ignoring the 1mx2m cutout, I had the 530 plus 42. 

I have 36 of the latest singles left over and no doubles left, they worked out spot on. Careful ordering doubles, you can pick singles up easily, doubles are harder to come by. Add a few more Doubles, they can be used as two singles if need be later. 

Using the Hardie carbide knife, there were no breakages at all. 

However, as I was tidying the leftovers, the missus said “if they’re spare they will look nice on the summerhouse” (hammer) but that’s for another day.


----------



## DBT85

Ah she comes out with some pearls eh!

I've basically drawn out the entire roof and have exact numbers, bar the first course, last course and then the ones to go under at the verge like Mike did on his.

So should be easy enough to calculate. I suppose one happy thought is that even if you are short, the roof is still water proof until some arrive.

I also ordered the carbide jobbie at about 1am this morning. :shock: 

Did you get anything specific for roof or wall membrane or just anything that said "breathable membrane"?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2k7ko2y0 said:


> Ah she comes out with some pearls eh!
> 
> I've basically drawn out the entire roof and have exact numbers, bar the first course, last course and then the ones to go under at the verge like Mike did on his.
> 
> So should be easy enough to calculate. I suppose one happy thought is that even if you are short, the roof is still water proof until some arrive.
> 
> I also ordered the carbide jobbie at about 1am this morning. :shock:
> 
> Did you get anything specific for roof or wall membrane or just anything that said "breathable membrane"?


I used this membrane it came as 135gsm, it’s really tough as it’s designed for roofing, and so can be used for walls. The two 50m rolls were £97 total. It’s 1.5m wide. I’ve probably got 10m left. Superb membrane, espescially at the price, kept the rain out ten days ago and water just beads on the outside.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":b6u73yjg said:


> I used this membrane it came as 135gsm, it’s really tough as it’s designed for roofing, and so can be used for walls. The two 50m rolls were £97 total. It’s 1.5m wide. I’ve probably got 10m left. Superb membrane, espescially at the price, kept the rain out ten days ago and water just beads on the outside.



The stuff you linked is only 120gsm, wonder if they do different ones.

I've got 50m of wall to cover and 37m of roof to cover so I'd better get cracking!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2pk7rlla said:


> Sheptonphil":2pk7rlla said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used this membrane it came as 135gsm, it’s really tough as it’s designed for roofing, and so can be used for walls. The two 50m rolls were £97 total. It’s 1.5m wide. I’ve probably got 10m left. Superb membrane, espescially at the price, kept the rain out ten days ago and water just beads on the outside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stuff you linked is only 120gsm, wonder if they do different ones.
> 
> I've got 50m of wall to cover and 37m of roof to cover so I'd better get cracking!
Click to expand...


That’s the one I bought, I was expecting 120gsm, but it came as 135gsm. Many others are only 100gsm. 

There is an undocumented feature of the Hardie carbide knife, if you undo the two screws, there is a single carbide tip the other end. You turn the blade round and put the two screws back in. For the slates I used the double end as a drag knife, it was perfect ergonomics sitting on the roof, slate on your lap and drawing it to you.


----------



## DBT85

Ahh weird that it was thicker!

I just caught a ballsup in my roof plan and am fortunate I did as I'd have been a bit short on tiles!


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":3aq3ujkd said:


> Not with slate, no. The pointing always fails with slate as there isn't enough texture for it to get hold of. No, I would have taken the cladding material hard up to the underside of the overhanging slate.
> 
> I hate plastic on a building, and there are positions no doubt where the only thing you can see of the roof is a strip of black plastic.
> 
> Here's my workshop from the rear: I used a little verge board over the feather-edge board because of the overhang:


Mike,

Am I right in recalling that you used slates as an undercloak under the membrane, and that that is what your featheredge goes upto? The barge board then covers that up and the actual roof slates go over the top of the barge?

The early pics look like the undercloak extended a little beyond the featheredge, did you just nudge it back when you later added the barge board?

I was looking at using the fibre cement undercloak till I realised it was more expensive than just using the tiles!


----------



## MikeG.

Initially, yes, but I soon realised (before I did any slating) that this was just a poor detail, so I removed the undercloak entirely. The roof is as you see it there in that photo.......slate overhang with small barge board hard up to the underside.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":1rd2vi8m said:


> Initially, yes, but I soon realised (before I did any slating) that this was just a poor detail, so I removed the undercloak entirely. The roof is as you see it there in that photo.......slate overhang with small barge board hard up to the underside.


Ah ok, excellent thanks.


----------



## MikeG.

I drew it for you:


----------



## DBT85

Appreciated Mike, Thanks.

Now explain why M18 anything is so much more of a pain in the backside to find that either m16 or m20? :lol:


----------



## MikeG.

Use M16, then, and whack in a couple of nails. One building inspector told me once that 4 nails equals one bolt, which surprised the hell out of me. Just be careful of splitting the wood.


----------



## DBT85

Hope you've been enjoying some quiet time with this lovely weather Phil, or has she had you drawing up her summer house?


----------



## Sheptonphil

Had a sabbatical at the weekend, This morning cleared everything up and general reorganisation in readiness for cladding. Started fixing the corner trims at the rear, and setting the rear door lining in the opening so I could fit door trims, Back door and frame now fit lovely. 

Then a text, fence panels 16 day delay, bum. I was planning on doing the gable wall this weekend, but that is conditional on the fence being removed, cladding done and replace with all new fence panels. So that job has been delayed by two weeks till 13th June. Decided instead now to clear workshop completely, cut all doorways to finished ground level, get the insulation in and set the floor board sheets down instead. Have to get membrane for the celotex yet, will pick some up tomorrow when I pick up my weekend eBay bargain, 12 sheets of 50mm celotex for £150, excess from a local self build job. I’ll also order the internal plasterboard (part of the planning fireproofing condition) after flooring is down and get that all fitted to the ceiling and walls. That should take care of the time gap created till cladding. 

So a bit out of order, but nothing that will hurt, I’ve got all the cladding trim for Rest of door reveals and corners to fit as well. 

Sat in the garden yesterday, the comments were still flowing, “will the summerhouse decking come to here to put the table on”. Now where the table was under the Sycamore tree is 15 metres from the chosen summerhouse location, it would be more of a coastal boardwalk than a deck! :roll:


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":1e0o6qv5 said:


> .........Have to get membrane for the celotex yet........



What membrane? Why?


----------



## DBT85

Iirc their is no slab for the floor, correct?


----------



## Sheptonphil

For a polythene vapour barrier under the floor. I guess it’s to stop moisture going down. I’ve got to put barrier on the ceiling as well to stop moisture going up.


----------



## MikeG.

Is there no DPM under the slab?


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":3u67pbra said:


> Is there no DPM under the slab?


Yes, a full sheet of 1200 DPM under the whole lot.


----------



## MikeG.

Well unless you can think of a good reason to put another piece of plastic on top of the concrete, I'm really not sure I'd bother. I can't see what it achieves.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":22hcfhc8 said:


> Well unless you can think of a good reason to put another piece of plastic on top of the concrete, I'm really not sure I'd bother. I can't see what it achieves.


In your diagram, you have a polythene liner under the celotex, is that not required? What gauge would I use for vapour barrier for the ceiling before boarding?


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":143hiig7 said:


> MikeG.":143hiig7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well unless you can think of a good reason to put another piece of plastic on top of the concrete, I'm really not sure I'd bother. I can't see what it achieves.
> 
> 
> 
> In your diagram, you have a polythene liner under the celotex, is that not required? What gauge would I use for vapour barrier for the ceiling before boarding?
Click to expand...


Blimey, have I? Where? I must have a look at those old threads.........


----------



## MikeG.

Where polythene is definitely requires around Celotex is when you screed over it. I am not at all clear as to why I showed it in that sketch under a floating floor. In fact, there are two or three things that have evolved over the years to be somewhat different from that old drawing. Mike from 2010 will applaud if you put it in. Mike from 2020 will shrug and say "whatever". Put it this way, I can't see it doing any harm, other than minor damage to your bank balance.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":2qrzaekl said:


> Where polythene is definitely requires around Celotex is when you screed over it. I am not at all clear as to why I showed it in that sketch under a floating floor. In fact, there are two or three things that have evolved over the years to be somewhat different from that old drawing. Mike from 2010 will applaud if you put it in. Mike from 2020 will shrug and say "whatever". Put it this way, I can't see it doing any harm, other than minor damage to your bank balance.


No problem, I didn’t buy it today, so will carry on without it. 

I have a dilemma with the internals of my build. I had always planned to have the extra section at the back a separate room for dust extractor, compressor and sink. Indeed it was going to be built as an addition to the workshop afterwards. With the cut roof as is, the wall that creates the room is not load bearing, and doesn’t even need to be there. 

So, do I keep the separate sound proofed room, or remove the wall and make it a single large room. The extra bit is 2.7m x 2.1m. I’ve attached the plan view.

It’s the red wall And grey door between the two rectangles. I’d keep the bit by the sink.


----------



## MikeG.

If that were me I'd have it as a metal-working workshop. Keep the filth in one place. In an ideal world, a separate finishing room would be a real treat, but frankly, it'll just become a store area/ dumping ground, so it might be best open up the space into one large area. Unless you have very distinct activities envisaged for the workshop.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1gd6qof5 said:


> If that were me I'd have it as a metal-working workshop. Keep the filth in one place.


Now that is a separation I hadn’t considered. In the last workshop, the grinding, and welding was done in one corner, but was as you say a really dirty corner which was beginning to spread. I was also very conscious of never to weld after any woodwork for fear of dust explosion. I’ll be looking at the space tomorrow and see if it will work as a dirty room. 

I guess now it’s built it will be easier to take down if it doesn’t work as a separate room as against ripping it out and then wishing I’d left it. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## HOJ

Just to add a comment with regards the second membrane, we use one in all cases, *on top* of the insulation for screed floors and floating floors, in the case of a floating floor it acts as a slip membrane, to allow the floor to move and as another VCL, flooring manufactures generally also specify it as a requirement, however, your call, we use it because we have to.


----------



## Noggsy

I think planning in a sound-proofed room for compressor and extractor is extremely sensible and I would definitely preserve that where possible. Could the room double as a dirty as well?


----------



## DBT85

If its build in right the compressor and extractor can be under the dirty bench and boxed in appropriately. Obviously with provision for air in and very warm air out.


----------



## Sheptonphil

HOJ":2aqg283d said:


> Just to add a comment with regards the second membrane, we use one in all cases, *on top* of the insulation for screed floors and floating floors, in the case of a floating floor it acts as a slip membrane, to allow the floor to move and as another VCL, flooring manufactures generally also specify it as a requirement, however, your call, we use it because we have to.



For the cost, I’ll put on a layer of 600 or whatever they have locally N the top of the PIR. The slip for movement seems sensible, the insulation won’t be going anywhere as I’ll be foaming the perimeter to seal the edges and taping the joins.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":effadcdn said:


> If its build in right the compressor and extractor can be under the dirty bench and boxed in appropriately. Obviously with provision for air in and very warm air out.


I think that is the way to go. 

I cleared all the tools, the temporary 8x4 workbench, mitre saw and ladders out the space today in readiness for laying the floor tomorrow. The space is HUGE, and then the separate room. 

The extractor is the Jet 1100a, a 6’ high HVLP chip extractor which will be ducted along one 8m wall of the main workshop with blast gates to four machines, utilising all the pipe work I took with me from my last workshop when we moved in January. The compressor will have its own home in a vented box, twin water traps at outlet and piped to three pressure controlled wall outlets around the workshop with 6mm tubing as I had before. One will be for lathe duster, one for the air brush and a spare for all other air tool on a 10m retractable reel. 

I put a wood frame where the small sink, extractor and compressor were planned for. There was a decent space still to put a dedicated metal topped work bench with vice, storage for the mig bottle to side and welder under the bench. 

I really think this space will work as the plant room as planned, and a dirty room not even considered (thanks Mike).

My thoughts on putting a small spray booth table in there as a clean room was ill conceived, as of course this is the home of the dust extractor, so will never be completely dust free or clean.

Also managed to fit the door frame and door in to the back opening.

Forgot the pics, will take some in the morning.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Order just place for 38 sheets of plasterboard and roof insulation hopefully here for mid week. Got to keep thinking ahead with the JIT system.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":124hna9k said:


> Order just place for 38 sheets of plasterboard and roof insulation hopefully here for mid week. Got to keep thinking ahead with the JIT system.


Ha. Yeah I'm just going to have piles of stuff here till its done (hammer)


----------



## DBT85

Phil,

Was it actually eurovent classic membrane that turned up or was it one of their other ones?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":34y23rdb said:


> Phil,
> 
> Was it actually eurovent classic membrane that turned up or was it one of their other ones?


Haven’t got the wrapper any more, it’s not written on it, just the overlap markings. 

It really is superb membrane.


----------



## DBT85

OK no worries. Just ordered from their website and it does actually say its 135, but not any branding. Saved a tenner tho!


----------



## Sheptonphil

More progress, back door fully sealed and finished, insulation laid on the floor, joints taped and edges foam filled. 

Will trim off excess foam tomorrow ready to lay the floorboards over the weekend. 

For the first time, I have gone with gun grade foam instead of the squirty hand held can that has two speeds, none and full throttle. The gun gives so much control over use there is no comparison. You can also use and leave without cleaning tubes or the nozzle blocking as the foam only reaches air at the very tip of the nozzle, nothing to dry and block. I shall use the foam gun for low expansion PU foam glue for the floorboards. The poly sheet between insulation and floor will stop it all becoming a solid mass. 

Meanwhile I need to work out roughly where the workbench will go as I will need a pair of electric sockets in the floor. The bench is an island and has three double sockets built in along with a permanently installed router in one end which are fed from a cable plugged into floor socket. I think I may have to run a couple of feeds under the floor, mark where they are and use the one (or two) that are best positioned. The rest of the electrics and air line will be run in conduit from a 40mm trunking around both rooms.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah my plan was also to put some sockets in the floor, the insulation is easy enough to cut a notch in to drop some cables in.

Oddly I'm more worried about making a door for mine than the entire rest of the build!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":31159h8m said:


> Yeah my plan was also to put some sockets in the floor, the insulation is easy enough to cut a notch in to drop some cables in.
> 
> Oddly I'm more worried about making a door for mine than the entire rest of the build!


Yes, that’s why I think I’ll let two cable sets in and leave one redundant if not required. 

Hmm, I can’t make the front door until I get the workshop operational. I want to put an outward opening stable door on, solid bottom, two or four glazed panels at the top. I did fleetingly think French doors, but SWMBO thwarted that plan. 

I bought a pre-owned UPVC door and frame for the rear which will make that really secure, found on the bay for £40 which fitted the door opening I’d already made. There is an eight foot wall to get over, with no easy way of getting back over that way so like a humane trap if anyone did try. Won’t be humane if they do get caught though.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Noggsy":px4aohva said:


> I think planning in a sound-proofed room for compressor and extractor is extremely sensible and I would definitely preserve that where possible. Could the room double as a dirty as well?


Thanks, that’s now the plan, keep the dirty stuff out back separate. I mocked it up and it will work fine.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A plodding day, too hot to move too quickly. 

Figured out the island workbench will go in one of three places, so I’ve set two electric cables into the insulation of which at least one will be in the correct position to instal a floor socket to power the workbench sockets. I may just put a second floor socket in for general use seeing the cables there now. The tails are going to join the ring on the house wall side. 

Eighteen of the twenty two floorboards are now down and glued. Just the Dirty Room, as it’s now called, to do.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A gentle half day today finishing the flooring and a general tidy up ready for the next part, the framing and hanging of the middle door, insulation of the loft space and frame a loft hatch opening.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Almost out of materials till the plasterboard arrives on Thursday so only a couple of small jobs done. 

Guttering temporarily fitted to the rear drain in case the rains come tomorrow. 

I managed to get a door lining for the middle door, so this is now installed, sealed, and the door hung. Insulation has been installed between ceiling joists at both back and front ends. I used the leftover Celotex board cut around the rafters and a layer of rockwool I had over from the walls, rather than the roll out insulation, to make sure I didn’t block the ventilation from the eaves. The rest of the ceiling will be done with 200mm Knauf earth wool when it arrives with the plasterboard.


----------



## DBT85

I see you, taking it easy. Slacker!

At least you can use the time to get the little jobs done that achieve little but take hours and hours!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2ahfrw8s said:


> I see you, taking it easy. Slacker!
> 
> At least you can use the time to get the little jobs done that achieve little but take hours and hours!



Yes, the fiddly bits, even fitting a simple door lining, fixing it and hanging the door took three hours. Guess I’m being too fussy sometimes, but I’ll know where the bits are that aren’t just right and they will always bug me. It’s quite satisfying doing three or four smaller jobs rather than one big slog of a task (like concreting)  

Did think of popping by yours in the morning for a bit of concrete tamping, second thoughts, I’ll just watch the time lapse video. (There will be a time lapse video won’t there?)

All kicks off again here Thursday with the plasterboard, then straight on to the cladding. Yours is looking real good.


----------



## DBT85

There will be a time lapse don't worry. I'll just put one together that covers everything from the type going in right up to the final bit of the concrete.

Is your cladding the same all over or only fire proof on the boundary?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":xw0udexj said:


> There will be a time lapse don't worry. I'll just put one together that covers everything from the type going in right up to the final bit of the concrete.
> 
> Is your cladding the same all over or only fire proof on the boundary?


Fireproof all over for consistent look. I had to do fireproof for the first metre. That would have to be two metres to the door jamb, then the door, that left another metre to the house wall. It wouldn’t look right having one side of the door different to the other, same for the back. The largest wall, the gable end, is against the boundary and that is sixty percent of the cladding.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Back to a working project rather than playing around with fiddly bits. 

The plasterboard and roof insulation turned up at 11am, on a 30 tonne lorry that had no chance of access to the property   
I was expecting kerb drop on an eleven tonner and handball to the pavement, where I could carry it the 60 metres to the workshop one board at a time. 

But!!! 


It had a Moffett.        






Although he parked 300 yds away, the Moffett meant he was able to drop it on my driveway, 20yds from my build. Superb delivery from a company that was half the cost of anyone else for plasterboard. I used online insulation










I underestimated the weight of a sheet of acoustic plasterboard, it’s about twice the weight of standard. Luckily I only had six of those, I struggled even for the 20 yards into the workshop. The standard were easy with the Gorilla Gripper, no bending, no twisting, just a controlled lift and carry. The fireline boards were half as heavy again as standard boards, a bit heavy to cart too far, and there were twenty of them. If the delivery had been kerbside as expected, I think I would have struggled to carry them the 60yds to the workshop on my own. It took an hour to shift them all into the workshop, just in time for lunch and a recharge. 










Getting a second wind, I set about installing them. The local hire shop wanted £65 + vat For a board lifter, that’s more than the boards cost for the ceiling. I made a wall rest out of a piece of 4x2 to hold the wall end and a dead man for the free end. 










Fortunately I’m over 6’ tall so could hold the board to the ceiling, locked in to the wall rest and manoeuvre the deadman in place. It wasn’t easy, but perfectly doable on my own. The ceiling is a board and a half wide and the same method worked for the half board. 

I installed the insulation above the boards as I went to save having to crawl around the space to do it later. 





Come end of play I’d finished half the ceiling and cut the hole for the access hatch which I’d framed yesterday.


----------



## Inspector

My muscles feel for you. 

I don't see it in the pictures. Is there a plastic vapour barrier between the drywall and the insulation? Not something you gents do? Or is it handled with the paint?

Pete


----------



## flying haggis

" so I’ve set two electric cables into the insulation of which at least one will be in the correct position to instal a floor socket to power the workbench sockets. I may just put a second floor socket in for general use seeing the cables there now. "

if the cables are actually enclosed in the insulation they may need de-rating


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector":1lnim7m3 said:


> My muscles feel for you.
> 
> I don't see it in the pictures. Is there a plastic vapour barrier between the drywall and the insulation? Not something you gents do? Or is it handled with the paint?
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete, yes there is a sheet vapour barrier between the two. I had to install it in two pieces as I just couldn’t handle the whole length at once. I’ve got pics of that as well I’ll add later.


----------



## Sheptonphil

flying haggis":27mnxq2u said:


> " so I’ve set two electric cables into the insulation of which at least one will be in the correct position to instal a floor socket to power the workbench sockets. I may just put a second floor socket in for general use seeing the cables there now. "
> 
> if the cables are actually enclosed in the insulation they may need de-rating


They are in a chase in steel conduit in the insulation, so effectively enclosed. I’ll check with the electrician if he wants to put them on a 20A circuit. I’ve plenty of spare ways in the consumer unit if that’s what he wants to do. Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A hiccup in the system today.

To make insulation easier, I decided to work from the other end and put the vapour barrier over the first two rafters in the dirty room, I could then insulate the second bay from the eaves by standing on the step ladder through the third bay, then put the poly sheet covering the third bay, over to the wall, set the ladder up in the main room, lean over the dividing wall and insulate the third bay. Dirty room vapour barrier and insulation sorted. In the dirty room I used 200mm of rockwool acoustic for insulation as this will help keep the noises contained to the room and not go up through the roof and still help thermally.

I could have used foil backed plasterboard, but stock was three weeks away, so I ordered standard board and them metres of poly. 

The boards were then fixed to the whole ceiling in the dirty room. 

The bedroom I had decorated in March had a new carpet ordered for fitting the first of April, of course this was put on hold and I was able to escape decorating and commence the build. Today, the carpet fitter arrived, so after he left I was summoned to finish the room, assemble the bed and replace all the furniture. That put paid to any more being done in the workshop, so the second half Of the ceiling will get done Saturday. I’ve two packs of rockwool acoustic insulation left over, so may as well a fix them to the house wall in the roof void, may stop sound vibration which did get in to roof space transferring to the house wall.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A new day, and it’s raining, good excuse not to work in the garden. So I was excused duty and allowed to play. 

The overnight rain was hard and it has been on constant for several hours, perfect to test the integrity of the roof. I took a torch into the loft space, and whilst I wasn’t anticipating any problems, was none the less relieved that everything was perfect inside. The guttering was working , so I’d managed to get that in the correct place first time. All this is very new to me, so It’s a pleasant surprise it all works as planned. 

I spent the morning finishing the workshop ceiling. Laying the poly across the joists, undoing the last row of screws from the finished boards to overlap it underneath. I needed 4.5 sheets to finish the ceiling, and 4.5 sheets left, no room for error breaking a sheet. All went to plan, the wall rest and deadman doing their bit. I’ll insulate the last few rafters tomorrow, as I wanted to crack on with the walls. 

I started garden side, working straight across the end and cutting the door opening after fixing boards to the wall. The long wall was next, six boards all lined up straight to the studs, no problems although humping these fireline boards around is much harder than standard board. Back wall, as the door lining was in, had to be measured, cut and installed across the room, but everything lined up fine. On to the house side, the heavy acoustic boards, first half was fine to the join of the two wall panels I’d made. The second half I’d mis-measured when making the wall up and was half a stud off for the next two boards, leaving the board jut reaching the stud. This wall was effectively still open, Covered just in membrane, there was no OSB so I had access to the stud work. I added a piece of 2x1 to the side of the two studs to carry the board edge. There were several other studs up through the board to fix to as well, but somehow I’d messed this edge calculation up. All resolved with the extra added timber though.

Just the dirty room walls to board out now, probably Monday as I’m restricted to a half day on Sundays and want to finish the insulation first. 

All in all a decent day’s work, starting to look a tidy space.


----------



## DBT85

Looking great Phil.

Just painting it or are you having plaster splatter all over the floor very soon?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3qw0e1ke said:


> Looking great Phil.
> 
> Just painting it or are you having plaster splatter all over the floor very soon?


This will be taped and filled then painted as dry wall. 

The theory being when we sell the house this would be usable as a workshop or home office. If wanted for a clean use like home office, it wouldn’t cost a fortune to convert by having it skimmed at that time to completely freshen it up and seal in any dings, dents, screw holes from fixtures and detritus from use. If I skim now, it will add nothing for me and make re-skimming harder in the future. 

New comment after seeing it boarded, ‘this would make a superb music room (she is a band singer), you could have the garage’

Gotta be careful I don’t lose if before I even get to move in! :shock:


----------



## Sheptonphil

Another day, a bit more accomplished. 

Last of the insulation went in to the roof void yesterday, that’s the loft finished for now, can’t decide yet whether to run the dust extraction ducting in the loft and drop down to machine or run it along the ceiling In the workshop and down. Thoughts?









Today started with the boarding in the dirty room, the last seven sheets, five of which had to be cut round doorways and part boards, so took a little while to do. I was left with four pieces over, about half board size. A post on the local Facebook giveaway group and they were gone in an hour, out of my way. 

The afternoon. Was spent taping and first filling the joints. About half were done before I ran out of mud. Shall have to get a couple of buckets tomorrow to finish off first coat and have enough for second fill. Tape is looking dodgy, probably need another roll of that as well.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Oh! found my new 5m Stanley tape measure yesterday, it’s been awol for two weeks after being used for only two days. 

It’s in the red circle!





I left it on the roof batten and tiled over it.  

Think if I put a magnet on a string I might be able to feed it down through the join in the membrane and draw it up by the belt clip. If not, it’s just going to have to stay there.


----------



## Inspector

If you have the right kind of tape you could cut a slit in the membrane to get the tape measure and patch the hole with the tape.

I don't recall seeing insulation that looked like that. Here in Canada it is either in batts or it is meant to be blown in (little fluffy bits) to settle over and between the 2 x material. Is that meant to be chopped and blown or does all your roof insulation look like that? Chunky?

You are going to want easy access to your ducts for changes so in the shop. If you ever want to sell and take it with you the patching will be easier too.

Pete


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector":143adbnu said:


> If you have the right kind of tape you could cut a slit in the membrane to get the tape measure and patch the hole with the tape.
> 
> I don't recall seeing insulation that looked like that. Here in Canada it is either in batts or it is meant to be blown in (little fluffy bits) to settle over and between the 2 x material. Is that meant to be chopped and blown or does all your roof insulation look like that? Chunky?
> 
> You are going to want easy access to your ducts for changes so in the shop. If you ever want to sell and take it with you the patching will be easier too.
> 
> Pete


Yes Pete, the insulation comes compressed on a roll 30ft long 16inches wide. When you unroll and lay between the joists it uncompresses and expands to 8inch deep. It’s Knauf earth wool, glass mineral wool, but doesn’t make you itch all day like the glass fibre insulation used to. 

The two packs of insulation left over in the picture is rockwool, made from, rock, and comes as batts. I used that in all the walls. 

Thanks for thoughts on extraction.


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":3owc8wv1 said:


> ..........can’t decide yet whether to run the dust extraction ducting in the loft and drop down to machine or run it along the ceiling In the workshop and down. Thoughts?.......



Didn't you have some sort of issue with sound attenuation? Am I remembering the right job? Obviously if the ducting is below the insulation it will be a lot quieter for your neighbours.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1zd6yw0g said:


> Sheptonphil":1zd6yw0g said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..........can’t decide yet whether to run the dust extraction ducting in the loft and drop down to machine or run it along the ceiling In the workshop and down. Thoughts?.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't you have some sort of issue with sound attenuation? Am I remembering the right job? Obviously if the ducting is below the insulation it will be a lot quieter for your neighbours.
Click to expand...

That’ll be me Mike. I didn’t even consider the ducting making a noise, but if it does, then that alone will be the deciding factor.


----------



## MikeG.

It's not the ducting making the noise, technically, rather broadcasting the noise made by the extractor (and the machine it's attached to). If you've noise issues then keep everything inside the insulated envelope. That insulation you've just put in the loft is good for noise.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Thanks for the heads up. I’ll route everything below ceiling level. 

I’m also putting a ceiling mounted air filter like the Record AC400 in the middle of the room, although some say to put it at the edge so it produces a circular air stream.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Taping and first fill completed. 

Got to get on and fit all the trims and vent mesh for the cladding tomorrow. With wet weather coming in for Thursday and Friday I need it done ready to crack on with cladding first thing on Saturday. At least then I’ll be able to work inside for a couple of days doing rub down and second fill.


----------



## DBT85

Did you use wedges to help level the plates on the dpc Phil or did you not feel the need as there was no frame weight on top of it?

I recall Mike using them on the workshop but for that one he put the whole frames up on the mortar rather than just the plate.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":20aoiyj7 said:


> Did you use wedges to help level the plates on the dpc Phil or did you not feel the need as there was no frame weight on top of it?
> 
> I recall Mike using them on the workshop but for that one he put the whole frames up on the mortar rather than just the plate.



No wedges, I used a stiffish mortar mix with febmix, bedded the DPC on lightly, then placed the sole plate on the DPC. After setting the first one dead level with gentle tapping to ease out the mortar, I joined the second which had already had a lap joint cut, gently setting it to level. Just did this for all four sides. By the time I had set the fourth side, I could strap the first side, then worked round doing them all. I had pre routered the groves for the straps by setting them on dry and marking. I also cut the door gap out later when everything was set and strapped, there was no chance of it not lining up that way rather than two pieces of timber.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Well, second fill completed today, then off to the tip it’s a good clear out. 

Arrived home to a letter from the local authority planning enforcement officer. Seems someone thinks I have built larger than my plan, and he needs access to the site to verify build size. 

Spoke with him on the phone, he’s popping in tomorrow. 

I did go out with my digital measure, combined internal area for both rooms is 29.85sqm. It did occur, had I removed the internal wall, I would have been over size, as it is, nothing to worry about. My roof height is 50mm less than my planning approval.


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":pex5ougo said:


> ......... My roof height is 50mm less than my planning approval.



I always write the ridge heights on planning applications, and I always add 100/ 150mm on to what we are actually proposing, so that there is absolutely no comeback if the ridgetile happens to be bedded on a thicker mortar coarse than usual. Same with plan sizes, although I add a little less on.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":2wzx12pk said:


> DBT85":2wzx12pk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you use wedges to help level the plates on the dpc Phil or did you not feel the need as there was no frame weight on top of it?
> 
> I recall Mike using them on the workshop but for that one he put the whole frames up on the mortar rather than just the plate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wedges, I used a stiffish mortar mix with febmix, bedded the DPC on lightly, then placed the sole plate on the DPC. After setting the first one dead level with gentle tapping to ease out the mortar, I joined the second which had already had a lap joint cut, gently setting it to level. Just did this for all four sides. By the time I had set the fourth side, I could strap the first side, then worked round doing them all. I had pre routered the groves for the straps by setting them on dry and marking. I also cut the door gap out later when everything was set and strapped, there was no chance of it not lining up that way rather than two pieces of timber.
Click to expand...

Did you lap the corners or just butt them?


----------



## Sheptonphil

Lap joins all round, including corners and the T join For dividing wall.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":suhqyoz1 said:


> Lap joins all round, including corners and the T join For dividing wall.


Poop


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":15l4nad9 said:


> Sheptonphil":15l4nad9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......... My roof height is 50mm less than my planning approval.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always write the ridge heights on planning applications, and I always add 100/ 150mm on to what we are actually proposing, so that there is absolutely no comeback if the ridgetile happens to be bedded on a thicker mortar coarse than usual. Same with plan sizes, although I add a little less on.
Click to expand...

On the planning application I was told dimensions are not required, just scale plans at A3. That’s what they got and approved. I also checked my scale plans and I’m within spec, not by more than 10mm, but inside what I’d drawn. I think it’s probably ridge that’s caused it as going from hipped pent roof to apex added 600mm to height. Add that to the scenario where many people cannot visualise a 2D plan in 3D and it probably looks ‘bigger than I imagined’. It’s exactly as I’d seen it mentally, and once clad this weekend it will look more in keeping than the black membrane wall.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2dcq53bj said:


> Sheptonphil":2dcq53bj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lap joins all round, including corners and the T join For dividing wall.
> 
> 
> 
> Poop
Click to expand...

It was my way of ensuring everything stayed perfectly square. I suppose but joins would work fine (ish). :?


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":ta34jzfu said:


> ........On the planning application I was told dimensions are not required..........



Local authorities vary in their requirements. However, never minding that I always put in dimensions (with a bit of tolerance) so we don't have any of the questions you are now facing.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":8meafxnk said:


> Sheptonphil":8meafxnk said:
> 
> 
> 
> ........On the planning application I was told dimensions are not required..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Local authorities vary in their requirements. However, never minding that I always put in dimensions (with a bit of tolerance) so we don't have any of the questions you are now facing.
Click to expand...

I’ve learned a lot in this project, right from pre-planning to now. There are a number of things I would have done a little differently.

I don’t think I’ve got a problem, but tomorrow will tell :|


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":5dj9pzsx said:


> MikeG.":5dj9pzsx said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheptonphil":5dj9pzsx said:
> 
> 
> 
> ........On the planning application I was told dimensions are not required..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Local authorities vary in their requirements. However, never minding that I always put in dimensions (with a bit of tolerance) so we don't have any of the questions you are now facing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’ve learned a lot in this project, right from pre-planning to now. There are a number of things I would have done a little differently.
> 
> I don’t think I’ve got a problem, but tomorrow will tell :|
Click to expand...

You and me both.

Sadly I'll probably never use much of that knowledge again!

Yhe next project for me like this is a 3 car garage and that will need a nice expensive raft at a minimum. Plus there are some techniques that I think Mike has said won't fly if it's subject to building regs too.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":166ceops said:


> .......there are some techniques that I think Mike has said won't fly if it's subject to building regs too.



Careful, though, because the Regs which apply to garages are only a select few of the total. So some of those which would apply to, say, a bigger workshop would not necessarily apply to a workshop......so stuff I said might be an issue might not be for a garage.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":g391o11v said:


> DBT85":g391o11v said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......there are some techniques that I think Mike has said won't fly if it's subject to building regs too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Careful, though, because the Regs which apply to garages are only a select few of the total. So some of those which would apply to, say, a bigger workshop would not necessarily apply to a workshop......so stuff I said might be an issue might not be for a garage.
Click to expand...

You know where I'll be coming for advice before it begins!


----------



## Sheptonphil

Planning enforcement arrived at 2pm. A ‘concern’ had been raised by a person that the build was larger than the approved plan. Officer was superb, told he had to go through the motions by his boss, so here he was. He showed me the spec based on my scale plans. I was under width by 200mm, ridge by 50mm and length was spot on. He was happy everything was fine and signed it off. He did say he’d looked at the photo sent in and the plan, and couldn’t see a problem, but was told to pop round to cross Ts. 

Got the first mist coat on the ceilings and walls by 10 o’clock, only took 40 minutes to do the lot with the Graco sprayer. After officer left I put second coat on but won’t clean sprayer out till Sunday to see if it needs another coat. What’s in the pump and line won’t dry out and the spray head is kept in a couple of inches of water to stop it clogging. 

Tomorrow sees the fence coming down and the cladding done, hopefully. This is the only bit I need very slight access on neighbours land, less than I need to put the fence back up, but need some just to crouch, stand and give ladder an angle. I think he will play ball, but there is a slight niggle he will be awkward. I shall know by mid morning.


----------



## DBT85

Glad that all went well!

Is the Graco another tool to buy for the job or did you have it anyway?


----------



## Inspector

Good to hear there are no issues with the build.

If I may suggest. After the fence is down and removed, lay a tarp on the ground while you work and as soon as you are done for the day roll it and the debris up so the neighbour can't complain about dropped nails or sawdust etc being left behind. Just don't leave it overnight. Yellow grass and all that. 

Pete


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":29u4tt84 said:


> Planning enforcement arrived at 2pm. ......He was happy everything was fine and signed it off........



Excellent. =D>


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":272ugbso said:


> Glad that all went well!
> 
> Is the Graco another tool to buy for the job or did you have it anyway?


Well, it was a tool bought in January a couple of weeks after we moved in here. I got it pre owned as we had five rooms and a landing plaster skim coated to get rid of artex stipple before decorating. I hate painting ceilings, and the thought of four double bedrooms, a dressing room and a landing three coats with a roller filled me with horror, especially the first watery mist coat. This does a ceiling 7m x 4m in under five minutes, no neck ache, no drips or splatter, a perfect finish, far smoother than any brush or roller. I knew I’d have another thirty metre ceiling here to do, so kept it for that. The plasterer want to buy it when workshop is finished, same money I paid for it.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector":2kw3f2de said:


> Good to hear there are no issues with the build.
> 
> If I may suggest. After the fence is down and removed, lay a tarp on the ground while you work and as soon as you are done for the day roll it and the debris up so the neighbour can't complain about dropped nails or sawdust etc being left behind. Just don't leave it overnight. Yellow grass and all that.
> 
> Pete


Thanks Pete, it’s a bit of his garden, not grass, but that is a super idea. I’ve a long enough piece of DPM five feet wide that would do the job nicely.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1jyy6o5f said:


> Sheptonphil":1jyy6o5f said:
> 
> 
> 
> Planning enforcement arrived at 2pm. ......He was happy everything was fine and signed it off........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent. =D>
Click to expand...

Thanks, I’m relieved. Despite not thinking I’d done anything wrong, I’ve invested so much time and effort into the build, to fall foul would have been soul destroying.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":3vlrf2wv said:


> DBT85":3vlrf2wv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad that all went well!
> 
> Is the Graco another tool to buy for the job or did you have it anyway?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it was a tool bought in January a couple of weeks after we moved in here. I got it pre owned as we had five rooms and a landing plaster skim coated to get rid of artex stipple before decorating. I hate painting ceilings, and the thought of four double bedrooms, a dressing room and a landing three coats with a roller filled me with horror, especially the first watery mist coat. This does a ceiling 7m x 4m in under five minutes, no neck ache, no drips or splatter, a perfect finish, far smoother than any brush or roller. I knew I’d have another thirty metre ceiling here to do, so kept it for that. The plasterer want to buy it when workshop is finished, same money I paid for it.
Click to expand...

Ahh that'll do then! I really should have bought one when we started doing this place. So much paint. So many rollers.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":37t4s9y7 said:


> Yhe next project for me like this is a 3 car garage.



And here’s me fighting off a smallish summer house, now with decking, fire pit or chiminea, lights and Wi-fi. Oh, and a slated roof to match the workshop.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":37nv5iwt said:


> DBT85":37nv5iwt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yhe next project for me like this is a 3 car garage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here’s me fighting off a smallish summer house, now with decking, fire pit or chiminea, lights and Wi-fi. Oh, and a slated roof to match the workshop.
Click to expand...

Look on the bright side. With you in the shop and her in the summer house you can rent out your actual house!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3te6f9hp said:


> Sheptonphil":3te6f9hp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DBT85":3te6f9hp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yhe next project for me like this is a 3 car garage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here’s me fighting off a smallish summer house, now with decking, fire pit or chiminea, lights and Wi-fi. Oh, and a slated roof to match the workshop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look on the bright side. With you in the shop and her in the summer house you can rent out your actual house!
Click to expand...

MIL is staying due to lockdown for her own good, ten weeks certainly take its toll on maternal tolerance, the shop and summer house will be excellent retreats.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A great start to the day, the rains overnight cleared away to leave it dull but dry. 

9 o’clock sharp and the trestles were set up ready for cutting the cladding. Tools charged, and a flask to hand. First job was to remove the eight old fence panels to give working room. I had arranged with the neighbour a month ago that I would do the fence this weekend. After the ‘concern’ raised about the build from this same neighbour, I was apprehensive as to him being amiable. I know he has had reservations all along. 

Fence panels removed, bottom starter strip nailed on and it was time to start making noise and start cladding. I was constantly scanning around, waiting for signs of life from the house, nothing, nada. Too good to be true I thought, but there was a car missing from the drive. 

Anyways, after a couple of hours plodding away, probably got the first three rows on, a voice from the driveway. ‘Ah, you said you were coming, I forgot’. Well it was really amiable, not civil, which was all I was expecting, brusque even, but no, happy and chatty. Right thinks I, let’s mention the ladders coming round later when I’m at head height. That’s OK he says, the bark will rake over later. 

Once I’d picked my jaw off the ground, I bade him farewell and set about the work in a lightened mood. 

It was a loooong slog, not a simple pick a length, nail it on, next, repeat. The Gecko gauge clamps were expensive, but invaluable, another tool to sell on when the project is finished. 

Lunch time passed, heavy rain showers came several times, tea time arrived and went, and still the paslode was firing away. I also had the verge to trim out with edging and a second counter batten along the verge to nail the planks to (The aluminium trim took up most of the verge battens in place already so needed doubling up).

At 7.55pm, the last nail went in the last plank.      Nine and a half hours straight. But still the fencing to replace. 

Seven were straight drop in panels, oh no they weren’t. They were 25mm too narrow for the concrete posts. Looking at the old panels, there was a strip added to one side. I had a few lengths of roof batten left, so these were ripped in two and a half added to each side. Perfect fit, the batten was inside the channel with half the panel edge. A custom trimmed panel made for the last gap, slotted in place and job complete for the day. Tidy up of work area and clear the tools away and finally went in at 9:30pm. 

It will really be plain sailing from here on in, front and back cladding is only 2.5m high and quite short pieces, think I’m going to be four or five lengths short, but hey, difficult to quantify how much was needed. Too costly to over order this cladding.


----------



## Noggsy

Lovely, tidy job. Well done.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Noggsy":13uzewdi said:


> Lovely, tidy job. Well done.


Thanks, I’m well pleased the way it turned out. 

It has softened the look of the side, he has the most visual impact, from my side all that is seen is a nice sloping slated roof.


----------



## MikeG.

That's a long day!

Maybe you are about to enter a better phase of relationship with your neighbour, and maybe a bottle of wine with a "thank you" note might help ease the way towards that goal.


----------



## DBT85

Nice job, shame the Gekos won't work for larger cladding. I did look at the cladman, think I saw one on ebay for £100 used so might be an idea.

Do you know that it was this neighbour that objected or just assume?


----------



## Lons

Great job Phil always worth putting in a long shift in those circumstances and from experience I bet you have aches in muscles you didn't even know you had. :wink: 

Just one comment if I may..... *FLASK* ? :shock:.........You need to get some priorities sorted, what about the boss lady fetching regular and copious mugs of freshly brewed hot liquid? :lol:


----------



## DBT85

Lons":39oq7xfq said:


> Great job Phil always worth putting in a long shift in those circumstances and from experience I bet you have aches in muscles you didn't even know you had. :wink:
> 
> Just one comment if I may..... *FLASK* ? :shock:.........You need to get some priorities sorted, what about the boss lady fetching regular and copious mugs of freshly brewed hot liquid? :lol:


She's too busy drawing up the summer house!


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1uhbd2ql said:


> That's a long day!
> 
> Maybe you are about to enter a better phase of relationship with your neighbour, and maybe a bottle of wine with a "thank you" note might help ease the way towards that goal.


I think that is an excellent idea, thanks. 

I’ll pick one up today and make a personal thank you card.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":264czqks said:


> Nice job, shame the Gekos won't work for larger cladding. I did look at the cladman, think I saw one on ebay for £100 used so might be an idea.
> 
> Do you know that it was this neighbour that objected or just assume?


Yes, these gauge clamps are made for 8-10mm Cement cladding, but are so easy to use, a flip of a lever and they are locked on and the gauge is set. I’ll put some close ups on when I do the back. 

It’s definitely this neighbour. When officer was here he confirmed it without actually saying, due to confidentiality. :? 

His MIL and FIL were round as I was putting in the last panel, saying how clean and tidy it looks. Thinks might indeed be looking up.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Lons":3rs9gapk said:


> Great job Phil always worth putting in a long shift in those circumstances and from experience I bet you have aches in muscles you didn't even know you had. :wink:
> 
> Just one comment if I may..... *FLASK* ? :shock:.........You need to get some priorities sorted, what about the boss lady fetching regular and copious mugs of freshly brewed hot liquid? :lol:


I dreaded sitting down in a soft chair last night, I knew it was all going to go pear shaped. Half hour sitting and it was a real struggle to get up and walk around.  
Cramp several times through the night, but all good now, especially knowing I don’t have to ‘just do the last two hours today’ always prefer to crack on where possible. I’m retired, so plenty of time to plod away at the rest now.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":vjrkps3x said:


> Lons":vjrkps3x said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great job Phil always worth putting in a long shift in those circumstances and from experience I bet you have aches in muscles you didn't even know you had. :wink:
> 
> Just one comment if I may..... *FLASK* ? :shock:.........You need to get some priorities sorted, what about the boss lady fetching regular and copious mugs of freshly brewed hot liquid? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> She's too busy drawing up the summer house!
Click to expand...

Coffee was brought out several times, the flask was supplementary, service is sometimes a little tardy.  
I believe the summer house is well advanced mentally. :shock:


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":3j7rah6i said:


> ........I believe the summer house is well advanced mentally. :shock:



I look forward to seeing the designs when they're posted here. :lol:


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1qzpmf1l said:


> Sheptonphil":1qzpmf1l said:
> 
> 
> 
> ........I believe the summer house is well advanced mentally. :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to seeing the designs when they're posted here. :lol:
Click to expand...

It’ll be here for discussion we’ll before the build starts. I’ve learned from this project to ask for advise and opinions before committing to a saw! It has saved me time and money getting it right (or righter) first time. :wink:


----------



## Fil

Sheptonphil

Is that cedral or hardie cement board?

And how much over lap did you use? 

Also you say nailed on, what nails where you using, and no mention of predrilled holes, so guessing you didn't? Did any crack?

Oh and what did you cut the boards with?


And that does look a nice tidy job, colour look well too!


----------



## Sheptonphil

Fil":undn547f said:


> Sheptonphil
> 
> Is that cedral or hardie cement board?
> 
> And how much over lap did you use?
> 
> Also you say nailed on, what nails where you using, and no mention of predrilled holes, so guessing you didn't? Did any crack?
> 
> Oh and what did you cut the boards with?
> 
> 
> And that does look a nice tidy job, colour look well too!


Hi, it is Hardie plank in khaki brown, it was the colour nearest to the house stone colour. I bought 100 lengths from squaredealpvc, they were 20% cheaper than most others and delivered 5m from the workshop instead of kerbside which would be 70m away. Edit, also bought all the trims from them, the corner trims are dear, but they are thick aluminium section which makes for a superb finish at the external corners, Complimented by the J channel for door frames and edges 

This stuff is not cheap, to clad the three faces in timber would have been £600-700, the kit with boards, trims, gauges and delivery was a tad over £2000 :shock: :shock: 

The overlap is the standard 30mm of a 180mm board, giving 150mm coverage. 

I was going to buy a Hardie guillotine, but was told by the person selling it that an angle grinder was better, especially on the angled verge cuts (so I didn’t buy his guillotine). I used a 125mm grinder with an Aldi diamond blade, it made little dust as the boards were wet, I wore a mask anyway, and it cut in two passes, first a scoring pass, then cut through in one steady draw. Took 20 seconds a cut. 

They were fixed with a paslode 350im first fix nail gun with a no mar nose. The nails were galvanised 51mm ring shank. I did get too near the top twice, mis judged where the nail was coming from, and broke off a couple of mm at the top, but just shot a nail below it by 10mm and it was fixed. There is no need to pre drill when using a gun. The very first row I did drill and hand nail, (10 holes and I blunted a HSS drill so changed to 3mm mason army bit) leaving the heads proud just to make sure I could remove and adjust them if needed as the wall was three boards long and I set three boards on to the starter aluminium strip, pulled a string line across the face and made sure I had a straight run, as using the gauges every course will follow the previous. If this one was wrong, the rest would mirror it. I did check level every five courses, but didn’t have to make any adjustments at all throughout the cladding, it just held level. 

The boards are a bit whippy so need a bit of careful handling, but with the Geckos, it is a perfectly doable one man job, just far easier with two.


----------



## Fil

Many thanks for the replys.

And yep have seen the prices, but will be in the same boat , under 30m2 but over the 15m2 and within 1 M of the boundrys, so this fibre cement board is the way to go.


But belive the expense will also pay off over the long term, in the need for no real lifetime maintance unlike the wood alternatives


----------



## Sheptonphil

Fil":3nig8uh3 said:


> Many thanks for the replys.
> 
> And yep have seen the prices, but will be in the same boat , under 30m2 but over the 15m2 and within 1 M of the boundrys, so this fibre cement board is the way to go.
> 
> 
> But belive the expense will also pay off over the long term, in the need for no real lifetime maintance unlike the wood alternatives



Mine really came down to two choices, use the fibre cement plank (and fireline plasterboard internally) and suck up the cost, or don’t have a workshop. The no maintenance was a big bonus, my last workshop was shiplap, and had to be repainted with fifteen litres of ducks back at least every other year as it was fairly exposed to the elements. This one is far more secluded on the whole and maintenance free, win win.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Only a half day today, local volunteer group wanted someone to put four external key safes on vulnerable persons houses so helpers can get access during this damnable virus, so I got the job. 

The door lining for the front stable door is now in, the door to make when I can get enough tools operational. Then on to first fix electrical. The 40mm trunking is now screwed around the ceiling perimeter of both rooms. The first two LED panel mounts are in, the rest marked up. Should be able to finish them tomorrow, as well as put the light in the dirty room, run all the cables between them, the switch and consumer unit location, ready for my electrician who hopefully will be here at the weekend, to make the worksop live from meter box and consumer unit. Can’t put sockets on yet as it’s still in flux where everything will go. Also got to trench out to summer house and run a cable there as it’s going to get its power from the workshop CU. Keep thinking I’m getting closer to the end, then find another ten jobs to do. :shock:


----------



## DBT85

I'd not worry about planning for socket locations and just bang a load up at intervals. You can add more later if needed but as long as they are at a sensible height where they won't get stuck behind cabinets or benches just put loads in. You'll doubtless find that youll still have 2 or 3 extension leads in there anyway :lol:


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":299lc4wm said:


> I'd not worry about planning for socket locations and just bang a load up at intervals. You can add more later if needed but as long as they are at a sensible height where they won't get stuck behind cabinets or benches just put loads in. You'll doubtless find that youll still have 2 or 3 extension leads in there anyway :lol:


I had forty outlets in my last workshop, and still there were none where I wanted one in places, so I’ll be putting in loads. I need also to see where the 16a circuit is going, wall heater, water heater, separate circuit for CNC (it doesn’t like sharing). At least with the trunking it won’t be hard to add circuits. 

Can’t decide if six LED 6000k 48w panels will be enough, I think it will be a case of wire them up and see, then add either another two, or specific task lighting at machines or work spaces as required. :?


----------



## DBT85

Considering the length of your space if have thought you want more personally. I was assuming I'd have 8 or 10.


----------



## flying haggis

40mm trunking might be a tad small especially nearest the c.u. get your sparky to put a couple of double sockets next to the cu to enable you to get on with the rest of the shop using ext leads till you decide on socket positons


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3jqawkv7 said:


> Considering the length of your space if have thought you want more personally. I was assuming I'd have 8 or 10.


Hmm, think two more may be in order. I wired one up, held it to the ceiling and judged where it lit up well. Seems to be at least 1.2m. I’ve put the first 1.2m from back workshop wall, next would be mid point, 2.4m away, giving 1.2 span either side, and last one 2.4m away from that, so 1.2m from front wall. Each panel would cover 1.2m in each direction as they are.


----------



## Sheptonphil

flying haggis":27o87wam said:


> 40mm trunking might be a tad small especially nearest the c.u. get your sparky to put a couple of double sockets next to the cu to enable you to get on with the rest of the shop using ext leads till you decide on socket positons


Sparky specced the 40mm trunking, says it can hold eleven 2.5 cables, which should be ample. Worst case scenario, I can go up into loft space to run cables for specific routes that will not alter like the heaters and 16A. I’ve done the whole build on a single extension lead from the garage up to now, but I do notice the flood lights dim when I turn the mitre saw on. :shock: Will be good to get the 10mm connected. A couple of sockets near the CU will be an ideal start as I do know that’s where the pillar drill is going.


----------



## MikeG.

I've got 3 over my bench.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":3dt6xi08 said:


> I've got 3 over my bench.


Wow! I’ve just ordered three more, the middle will now have five, plus a pair each end covering a metre each. All the walls are white, that should help.


----------



## Inspector

Rule of thumb for lighting is 1000 lumens per square metre where detailed work is being done. My shop is almost 60 square metres and I have sixteen 4,000 lumen fixtures for a total of 64,000 lumens. I like it bright.  

Pete


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector":3o2ggu9x said:


> Rule of thumb for lighting is 1000 lumens per square metre where detailed work is being done. My shop is almost 60 square metres and I have sixteen 4,000 lumen fixtures for a total of 64,000 lumens. I like it bright.
> 
> Pete


My panels are 4500 lumens, this part is 28 sqm, on your calculation works out as seven or eight. I’ve first fixed all the wires this morning for eight panels, only got the six at present, four more to come on Friday. Two of them will go near front door and have two more in case I want task lighting over bench or lathe. I also like it bright. 






Dirty room will get a twin 6ft batten light, used to be over my central workbench in old workshop, that’s first fixed already, as is the outside light.









It’s bright with six, will be superb with eight. No shadows when I walk up through.


----------



## DBT85

Ah are they not daisy chained to one another then? Each is its own fitting? Looking so nice when its all white and bright.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":k20dsyop said:


> Ah are they not daisy chained to one another then? Each is its own fitting? Looking so nice when its all white and bright.


Yes they are daisy chained. Using Wago connectors, the circuit is there, live and insulated at present. There are two, three way wagos which are forming the chain at present. Two ways are used as loop in and loop out, the driver will go in to the third on each. The earth is a two way in/out as the panel is double insulated and no earth needed. The light panels will form the enclosure to make them comply with regs as a tool is needed to remove panel. The new fangled push in connectors make these joints and circuits a breeze compared to the old strip terminals and junction boxes.


----------



## DBT85

Ahh nice. A link for your panels?

Can I ask what you did to close up your eaves? Mike on his just chopped up some 2x4 and then took a planer to any bits poking out.

I can't see from the pics what you did.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2wijs8xd said:


> Ahh nice. A link for your panels?
> 
> Can I ask what you did to close up your eaves? Mike on his just chopped up some 2x4 and then took a planer to any bits poking out.
> 
> I can't see from the pics what you did.


I got them from the bay, from this company. For my last four, they were listed as none available, but I was able to buy them direct from them and pay by paypal. They are being delivered tomorrow. If still zero stock, send a message. They are purpose made surface mount units, not panel and frame separate. 

I closed off the eaves the same, started with 5x1 par and planed to fit. 

More first fix today, and temporarily powering the dirty room lights. I managed to find the cable I’d run up the wall which is going to the underfloor sockets. I had measured them, marked the plasterboard when I added it, them promptly painted over the markings. (hammer) (hammer) (hammer) Fortunately I knew they passed through the 1.2m point somewhere to the left of the floor position. Drilling a 32m hole on the line I’m putting the sockets at gave me a bit of fishing room, and less than a finger length to the right, found the first one. The second was bang on the 32mm hole. So I have a feed to the underfloor in two places. There are two more in there if I feel the need tomorrow, else they can stay dormant and unconnected. 

Powering the twin batten in the dirty room showed the brightness of the main workshop. Think the batten fitting is going tomorrow and two panels going up in its place.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":1omtp6y9 said:


> I got them from the bay, from this company. For my last four, they were listed as none available, but I was able to buy them direct from them and pay by paypal. They are being delivered tomorrow. If still zero stock, send a message. They are purpose made surface mount units, not panel and frame separate.
> 
> I closed off the eaves the same, started with 5x1 par and planed to fit.


Ahh great, thanks. 

When you say the same, you nailed two bits together at 90 degrees, cut to fit, then planed down?

I think I'm going to need more 5x1 :lol: 

Looking great with the lights, though only 2 sockets on the wall?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1a71svog said:


> When you say the same, you nailed two bits together at 90 degrees, cut to fit, then planed down?
> 
> I think I'm going to need more 5x1 :lol:



Yes, joined first then made to fit. 


DBT85":1a71svog said:


> Looking great with the lights, though only 2 sockets on the wall?


those two are where I was fishing for the floor cables. I’ve one in the corner near front door, and those two, the position of those were dictated by the floor cables. By the weekend, there will be at least seven doubles along there, ten doubles on the opposite wall and four doubles each end. The dirty room will have six doubles. The left wall will have an area of (Don’t look Mike) French Cleats. Right hand will be workstations and mobile tools. (Or more precisely tools made mobile with wheeled bases). Layout is still in development.


----------



## DBT85

Ahh that sounds better.

Apart from the cleats. 

(I have a tiny cleat section in W1 and I like it... shhhh)


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1wlnb96c said:


> (I have a tiny cleat section in W1 and I like it... shhhh)


Don’t expect any more help from mike admitting that, one of his pet hates. 

I’m planning on 4-5metres of them a metre high. :roll: 

More electrics today, a fishing expedition for the two return wires from the floor sockets, Feed wires were found yesterday, both of the returns were directly behind the 32mm exploratory holes which were made in the centre point of the intended socket location. Bingo, ring circuit now goes under the floor and back twice. In the dirty room, cables were run in the wall to be able to go under the worktop by the sink, where the compressor will live in a sound reducing enclosure. The ring cable was fed in to the first socket of six for the room and out from the last, back in to the workshop. The ones in between will be fitted in between tomorrow. 

Lunchtime, and the four extra LED panels arrive, so I abandoned the ring and removed the yellowish batten fitting in the dirty room and replaced it with two panels. 8) 8) 8) 8) now, that’s white. Final two panels were added to the workshop, where the wires were waiting already, it only took 10 minutes each. 

Popping the last screw in the light surround and DPD arrive with the curtain heater, so that took precedent over more sockets. The fused outlet was installed ready, sparks wants this on a dedicated radial circuit, so it was a case of fixing heater, plugging it in to test, before cutting the plug off and wiring into the fused outlet. I now have the cooling fan, and oscillating twin heat unit finished. 

Architrave and skirting board is now at the timber yard awaiting collection, so will have that to do over the weekend as well as finishing ring circuit, radial for the CNC and network sockets.


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":3aydha40 said:


> Don’t expect any more help from mike admitting that, one of his pet hates.........



:lol: :lol: Not hates. It's the fashion-ness of them which I dislike. Anyway, I'll talk you guys through to the end of your buildings, but what you then do inside them is entirely up to you. I saw carpet and curtains in one of "my" sheds, once. I was tempted to send Carruthers around, but it was in Australia, so what can you expect? :lol:


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":2u5gl88y said:


> Sheptonphil":2u5gl88y said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t expect any more help from mike admitting that, one of his pet hates.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: Not hates. It's the fashion-ness of them which I dislike. Anyway, I'll talk you guys through to the end of your buildings, but what you then do inside them is entirely up to you. I saw carpet and curtains in one of "my" sheds, once. I was tempted to send Carruthers around, but it was in Australia, so what can you expect? :lol:
Click to expand...

Well, taking your advice on construction has paid massive dividends. I do thank you for that. 

Two days of torrential rain, thunder storms and lightning and not a dribble inside.   whilst in the loft to wire the dirty room panels I had a really good look all round the edges, from eaves to ridge. Doesn't feel damp even, unlike my last workshop, that whilst was watertight, always felt damp, especially during rain or winter. There was no ventilation gap between studs and cladding (or membrane come to that). I’m happy. Was at a Yandles open day when the Triton demonstration went flat when comments about Australians was taken personally by an audience member (an Australian). No sense of humour. :wink:


----------



## MikeG.

I'm allowed to take the mickey out of Aussies.....I lived there 10 years, and I've got a piece of paper somewhere which says I'm a joint Aussie/ UK citizen. My dad did that without asking me. They have a great sense of humour generally, BTW, just not quite the same as ours.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Timber collected today for architraves, have left skirting board on the rack at the timber yard, won’t be fitted till the wall benches are made and will be in the way till then. 

Loft ladder arrived, as did the sink, so ladder fitted and loft hatch and surround secured in place. 

Bowls club has reopened, so I was dragged off site for some ‘quality time together’, evidently there IS more to life than building my workshop :shock: 

Hoping to crack on with electrics Sunday, but I think there are other plans afoot. 
We’ll see.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Not a great deal achieved today, I had the sparks round, saw my first fix so far, and advised on next stage of cabling, looked at my secondary meter box installation, happy with everything, and left. I’ll call him back in when the cabling is finished and he can do the connections and testing. :idea: 

It does mean though I can close off the cladding at the front and back. I didn’t want to box in the feed cables before I knew he was happy they were routed in the right place. 

All kicks off again Monday with a vengeance.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Cracking day, dry and warm, perfect for the work in hand

After yesterday’s visit from my electrician, I was able to do final route for the feed cable to the consumer unit. 

Once this was in place in the ventilation gap of the cladding I was also able to send a cable down to the site of the future summerhouse and bring that in to the CU. That will be ready, but not connected yet. I could then place the CU on the wall, mark where the trunking was to be accessed, drill the holes, fix it and run the circuits in. One more radial and the rest of the sockets to place before sparks comes back to do some real work. 

With the cables finished outside I set to trimming out the front battens and start the cladding. Managed over half the front, so that should get finished tomorrow, and maybe the back as well. Still not sure I’ve got enough boards. :?


----------



## DBT85

How have you found that 40mm trunking to work with? Screwfix or tlc?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":mxuj8ra7 said:


> How have you found that 40mm trunking to work with? Screwfix or tlc?


The trunking is giving me options to go horizontally between sockets on walls or vertically, across the down to the next one depending on wall usage. I really like it. Using a stepped drill, the 20mm holes are easy to make cleanly in the right place and a perfect size. I wouldn’t put it in a house, but here it is perfect, and for alterations or additions in the future it will be really easy to add or move circuits. 

I got it from Electricaldirect, £5.27 for a 3m length. It’s a decent quality trunking. I used ten lengths. The conduit and fittings I get from Screwfix.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Front cladding finished and one of the four sections at the rear, the largest one, fitted to eaves height. Cutting the board above the door and the two which marry in to the eaves took nigh on forty five minutes each. :shock: The boards worked out well, with no tiny bits to fill in at the top. Another day at the back should knock a big hole in this job.


----------



## Blackswanwood

You have made a cracking job of this - it looks great and has been really interesting to follow.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Blackswanwood":1iuhkhvi said:


> You have made a cracking job of this - it looks great and has been really interesting to follow.



Thanks, that’s appreciated. This is probably different to many workshop builds as it had to conform to several conditions and regulations for material choice, and is attached to the house, instead of stand alone at the bottom of the garden. 

It’s certainly been a learning curve, as there was going to be various trades in along the way, which never happened. I’ve probably saved several thousand and learned new skills along the way. 

I can see the light now, when I thought that before, someone blew the candle out!  

The cladding should be finished up Wednesday if I have enough on site, then it’s all about the internals, finishing the electrical circuits so my sparks can test everything I’ve done, and make connections both ends, meter box and workshop. Then get the tools in to make the shelving, workbenches, sink unit, cleat wall, drawers and Compressor store. My first project though will be to make a stable door for the front.


----------



## DBT85

The fun thing is that the building is finished in short order but the workshop project never really ends. You'll always be adding stuff or changing things.

I don't know about you Phil but mine feels massive compared to where I've been making mess for the last 18 months!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3s32f2tq said:


> The fun thing is that the building is finished in short order but the workshop project never really ends. You'll always be adding stuff or changing things.
> 
> I don't know about you Phil but mine feels massive compared to where I've been making mess for the last 18 months!


I think the inside will probably take longer to evolve than the building took to make. I’ve so many things I want to put in place that all need custom making, I don’t think there will be time this year to do any hobby making. :wink: 

Size wise I was used to a 18sqm vaulted workshop, which was freezing in winter (Except the high vaulted ceiling), felt damp although it didn’t leak, and too hot in summer. Virtually no insulation and the construction didn’t lend itself to adding any. Electric was on the limit, I had to make sure I didn’t turn too many high power machines on at once or had to turn them on in a particular order so the electric didn’t trip down at the house. This is why I put the ceiling in, I didn’t store wood in the rafters when I could so no open eaves storage for me to clutter the place up with. I’m having a warm workshop, easily heated, which will be 50%+ larger than before. 

It will take several months to fit it out though. Looking forward to that bit as well.


----------



## Sheptonphil

This cladding lark is going slower than anticipated  

First this was to fit all the edge and bottom trims in place to carry the board ends. Fiddly, but does make for a decent finish. I managed two of the four wall sections, the sloping section was just so time consuming to mark, cut and fix, the small wall was just plain sailing by comparison. Have worked out the lengths to cut for the last wall, I’m two boards short (hammer) (hammer) (hammer) 
Not sure if I can get them from Weston Super Mare, that’s 40 minutes away, else it’s a 90 minute trip to Swindon. Delivery is not an option at £135 flat rate. :shock:


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":r5lnf71h said:


> .........Delivery is not an option at £135 flat rate........



:shock: :shock: :shock: Are they hiring a helicopter to deliver it? :shock:


----------



## DBT85

It's mad what some places charge.

roofing supermarket or whatever it is want 75+VAT for basically any tile order. It could be 1 tile.

Sorry you're short Phil, at least its still water proof!


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":3qk091qy said:


> Sheptonphil":3qk091qy said:
> 
> 
> 
> .........Delivery is not an option at £135 flat rate........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :shock: :shock: :shock: Are they hiring a helicopter to deliver it? :shock:
Click to expand...

They do all deliveries via pallet line and make no discrimination whether it’s a lorry load or a tin of edge paint. 



DBT85":3qk091qy said:


> It's mad what some places charge.
> 
> roofing supermarket or whatever it is want 75+VAT for basically any tile order. It could be 1 tile.
> 
> Sorry you're short Phil, at least its still water proof!


Shouldn’t be a problem, even if it’s a trip out. Will know in the morning if WSM have any as I’m going there next week anyway. 

I knew the 100 board order was tight, but it really is impossible to get the quantities spot on without having lots going to waste. 

Worse things happen at sea, we were always told.


----------



## DBT85

Chop chop Phil!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> Chop chop Phil![/quote
> You youngsters! A bit of a catch up from the last couple of days, unlike some, (anon) I didn’t take the weekend off just to tidy up.
> 
> Architrave is fitted to all the door frames and it’s all stopped and sanded ready for primer/undercoat.
> 
> Another result, I contacted the cladding company and they only offered the palletised delivery, BUT, I asked them to chop up two 3.6m lengths into 900mm pieces, strap them together and I’d arrange courier collection. No problem he says, and £6.70 later I had this turn up.  I’ve 14 pieces 870mm to fix, so this will allow trimming to size and cot off damaged ends if dropped in transit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’ll be for the weekend, whist it’s wet I’ve finished off the first fix electrical and started the second fix. With a bit of luck the electrician will be here Saturday to test it all and connect both ends. There’s twenty seven double sockets and two fused outlets in two ring circuits, one lighting and fire alarm, one dedicated heater and one circuit for the summer house. The Ethernet is now installed for the CNC and a wireless sender is in the loft. the house fire alarms and workshop alarm are linked, if one is triggered, they all sound.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve now got my old 5 1/2ft x 3ft workbench and table saw in so I have something to work on making the side benches and dirty table. This will be re topped to 7x3 when I get round to it. I picked up a stainless steel 40”x 24” table from a local baker, from which I will use the top to make my metal working bench in Dirty room. Local Facebook page also provided me with a freebie new 2m length of worktop for my sink top and canteen. (space for a kettle).
> New compressor arrives Thursday, a 90litre belt driven jobbie, it’s apparently quieter than my 30 year old direct drive 24 litre, so I can build the cupboard to fit it rather than hoping it will fit under the worktop. The 24 litre can reside in the garage as it’s always been a pain just topping up tyres and the like having to drag the compressor down to the garage at the old place. Also managed to scabbie two really nice tall steel cabinets, four shelves plus a large drawer in each.
> Got to work out where the air filter is going, I think it will be on the ceiling on the left side, creating a circular air flow.


----------



## DBT85

So what you're saying is you forgot to run an air line from the workshop to the garage :ho2 

Looking great Phil.

Can I ask what made you go for the metal sockets over white ones?


----------



## Blackswanwood

Are you sticking with the concrete floor surface Phil?


----------



## DBT85

Another one from me, what did you use to secure your ridge to the roof? Only the eternit fibre cement and cembrit fibre cement ridge screws seem to be a pig to get hold of.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1jmzoyfl said:


> So what you're saying is you forgot to run an air line from the workshop to the garage :ho2
> 
> Looking great Phil.
> 
> Can I ask what made you go for the metal sockets over white ones?


It honestly never crossed my mind to run a pipe down there, but it’s 35m, a lot of digging.  
Using the trunking they all bolt together with the couplers and they take the knocks of a workshop better. It’s not a beauty contest, and somehow these look more in keeping. Every one is earthed as well, maybe not required but things get dropped and hit more in here and these will never be unsafe. Not sure you’d get a good fit between white sockets and conduit. Using the female couplers it’s all solid, but easy to alter if required. (And it surely will).  



DBT85":1jmzoyfl said:


> Another one from me, what did you use to secure your ridge to the roof? Only the eternit fibre cement and cembrit fibre cement ridge screws seem to be a pig to get hold of.


I used 60mm Tec screws from Screwfix. They’re self sealing with the DPM washers Supplied. 



Blackswanwood":1jmzoyfl said:


> Are you sticking with the concrete floor surface Phil?


The floor has had 50mm celotex insulation laid on it and then 22mm P5 Norboard Flooring chipboard on top. It probably looks like concrete, as dust, wet feet and paint overspray have ‘aged it’ and given it this lovely patina. :?


----------



## DBT85

Thanks again Phil.

One more!

So the 135 degree ridge tiles I have here (the wrong ones, not sold them yet) have a hole in the top about 1/3 the way along the exposed ridge. When I look at some photos online others seem to have it too. Now these are unventilated ones but I'm not sure I get why there's a hole in it. 

Did yours?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3gww14ge said:


> Thanks again Phil.
> 
> One more!
> 
> So the 135 degree ridge tiles I have here (the wrong ones, not sold them yet) have a hole in the top about 1/3 the way along the exposed ridge. When I look at some photos online others seem to have it too. Now these are unventilated ones but I'm not sure I get why there's a hole in it.
> 
> Did yours?



No, no hols at all in mine. The hole is to take a self sealing screw down through for the dry ridge system into a central 2x1. A vented ridge tile is a different beast.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Second fix electrical finished, although sparky is not now coming till Monday to test and connect. Middle door removed for paint work, architraves all primed and undercoated




. 

Stainless top here now to build the welding bench in the dirty room, need to remove the top, discard the legs and build a bench under it six inches below sockets. 







The tall cabinets, a local bargain at £35 each, are in their final place.








This weekend should see the air line installed, last of the cladding up, and moving in of the 16” bandsaw, and pillar drill. Possibly the dust extractor. This is to set the layout and also be used in the construction of the internals, benches, drawers etc.


----------



## flying haggis

those cabinets look really good, and brilliant for the price.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Superb find. I originally bought one, but when I went to collect said ‘shame you haven’t got any more’. Big mistake, there were four more in the Luton van, a clear out from an office block. I went back twice more and now have three, two here and one for the garage to store nasty gardening sharp stuff and chemicals away from the grandchildren.  The sliding drawers are a brilliant addition.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A good fun day. All the hard, dirty, heavy work is well behind me, everything now is so much smaller, lighter, cleaner and more satisfying to complete. 

The sink unit base is in, and framed to fit the compressor. A pair of Louvre doors on here will keep it tidy.





Then the worktop cut and fitted, cut the sink bowl in and fit the tap, an instant heat type hot and cold jobbie. The door will be donated from our kitchen, as will five wall cupboards which will go on two walls when the new kitchen is fitted later in the year. I’ll put a single row of tiles around the worktop. 





The drill press and bandsaw were imported from the garage where they have been stored for six months. Positioning them showed a flaw in my plan, the two tall cabinets are best placed opposite sides of the workshop. This meant three of the electric sockets were in the wrong places. No problem, with the trunking system, they were relocated with no disruption and no butchering walls.













Last evening whilst closing the garage up I noticed I’d left the dirty room lights on. Thought this may happen, so today I re-powered them looped in from the workshop light circuit. Whilst switched independently, the dirty room, like the loft, can now only be turned on if the workshop is lit, and if left on again, will be turned off with the workshop lights. 

Next up, the fire alarm. I’ve got a linked system, so this one will sound the alarms in the house and the house ones will trigger the workshop one. It was fitted at the end more likely to cause a problem fire wise, and powered by the circuit removed from dirty room lights earlier. The alarm is a multi sensor unit which cross checks two types of sensors, optical and heat, to eliminate false alarms. It will not trigger with dust as an ionisation sensor would. They are the Aico Ei3024.






With more and more tools being taken up to the workshop, each job is becoming easier to complete.

Despite reservations about the size, it is going to work well by the time I get side benches built to hold bench tools like the pro edge, mitre saw and sander. The side benches will not be designed as work benches as such, that will be the domain of the central island and so will they will be narrow, at 400mm and 450mm. 

Coming together, and getting used to the space to work in. Lighting is amazing, no shadows wherever I stand.


----------



## flying haggis

looking good. have you chosen the carpet yet.................


----------



## Sheptonphil

flying haggis":zizxnhfi said:


> looking good. have you chosen the carpet yet.................


   
Lucky there’s no windows, Mrs S would be making curtains. :shock: May happen yet when I make the door in the next couple of weeks, that will be a four pane split stable door. 

Air line now in around the dirty room, poking out into the workshop, will run the air circuit this week. Sparky is scheduled for tomorrow morning, hurrah.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Not saying it was either wholly or partly to do with the build, but the neighbour who has alsways been unhappy with the project, and raised ‘concerns’ to planning has now put his house on the market :shock: :shock: :shock: 

Never in 45 years of moving have I driven away a neighbour in six months.


----------



## Inspector

You might luck out. The new neighbour might want to put up a shed on his side and you will never have to worry about what you do in yours again. =D> 

Pete


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":25zpm0nr said:


> Not saying it was either wholly or partly to do with the build, but the neighbour who has alsways been unhappy with the project, and raised ‘concerns’ to planning has now put his house on the market :shock: :shock: :shock:
> 
> Never in 45 years of moving have I driven away a neighbour in six months.



Don't worry, you'll be stuck with him for a while. Post-lockdown house sales aren't exactly booming.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":1aa82smf said:


> Not saying it was either wholly or partly to do with the build, but the neighbour who has alsways been unhappy with the project, and raised ‘concerns’ to planning has now put his house on the market :shock: :shock: :shock:
> 
> Never in 45 years of moving have I driven away a neighbour in six months.


I wonder how much you knocked off his house value :lol:


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1o53i07s said:


> Sheptonphil":1o53i07s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying it was either wholly or partly to do with the build, but the neighbour who has alsways been unhappy with the project, and raised ‘concerns’ to planning has now put his house on the market :shock: :shock: :shock:
> 
> Never in 45 years of moving have I driven away a neighbour in six months.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how much you knocked off his house value :lol:
Click to expand...

And added to mine at the same time   

He’d only been there a year before I descended upon him. Never mentioned moving in the conversations we had before this. £8000 in stamp duty he won’t get back. 

Probably a coincidence. 

On to the last bit of cladding at the back today, first dry day for a week since the top up boards arrived. Sparks delayed till tomorrow, so I should get it finished.


MikeG.":1o53i07s said:


> Don't worry, you'll be stuck with him for a while. Post-lockdown house sales aren't exactly booming.


 Put it on last Friday, there was a viewing Sunday, looking good for a start for him.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Finally, the last of the cladding is on, the exterior is now finished, barring the main door. 

I managed to clear all the dross accumulated from the build and do a tip run, the garden looks less like a building site now,



Mrs S is happier. (Secretly I think she can see her summer house getting done this year), although she has also now thrown in another major job, a ten metre long 600mm high raised plant bed. She’d like this done before the patio goes down :? (Yep, another job added to the list) in front the new workshop so the topsoil removed when building the patio base can be used to fill it. 

I know I’m going to have to leave the workshop project for wet days before long, there are other things of greater priority in her schedule. At least I got my project done before the kitchen refit. This new house lark is all well and good, but there always seems to be more jobs added to the list before the first ones are completed. 

I’m wanting to get the side benches in beforehand, now, do I make them from kitchen cabinets and cut then down to the desired depth as a base, adding my own drawers as I want five of more shallow drawers in most bays, as too deep a drawer and stuff just ends up on top each other. 

Or do I make the base cabinets as well from 3/4 ply? I will have eight or ten to make, most will be drawer units, some will be open to take mobile tools like the thicknesser and bobbin sander on trolleys. 

Should I use 3/4 ply for the drawer sides? Would 12mm be heavy enough? I will be using full extension runners. I will probably face them off with edge banded ply.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Started planning the layout. 

Starting with an central island workbench. I don’t find it as easy working on a workbench placed against a wall. 

I positioned the larger tools, bandsaw, pillar drill and lathe. Then taped the floor to see where the side benches would go. I think I have a very workable plan, and will be building a continuous bench on the left side to hold the pillar drill, vice on the tangent and flowing into a 400mm bench to mount the Proedge and morticer with open space for storage under. On the right past the band saw will be three and a half metres of 500my bench with thirty shallow drawers. This will lead to the CNC router table as a continuation of the worktop. This leaves me a large space inside the door for floor build projects, a seven foot by three foot island workbench which extends over the table saw a further two feet at the same height.


----------



## MikeG.

20mm drawers sides? That's way over the top. 10 or 12mm is more than enough.


----------



## Marineboy

I used 12mm for my kitchen drawers and they are fine. The Blum slides I have used are rated to 30kg and so some of the drawers are stuffed full of heavy crockery.


----------



## Noggsy

Looks good Phil. Is there enough space to run things through your bandsaw without shifting it?


----------



## Inspector

I like the invisible lathe. :lol: 

Pete


----------



## DBT85

Looking good Phil, I envy you having already finished the outside before the rubbish weather descended!


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":147lrv4t said:


> 20mm drawers sides? That's way over the top. 10 or 12mm is more than enough.


Have ordered Two sheets of 12mm ply now for the drawers, 18mm cabinet sides 6mm bottoms. I’m going to have a go at the 1/4 1/4 1/4 method of drawer construction. In total I shall be making 34 drawers, 136 corner joints. Hoping to batch produce them after the first trial one. 
Should really make the stable door first though, I’ve ordered joinery grade pine to construct it, so will crack on with that when it turns up next week sometime. Wanted to use hardwood, but that was £370 dearer, and the pine was already at £160


Marineboy":147lrv4t said:


> I used 12mm for my kitchen drawers and they are fine. The Blum slides I have used are rated to 30kg and so some of the drawers are stuffed full of heavy crockery.


Slides won’t be Blum, but they are rated at 25kg. The drawer sides will only be 75mm max.


Noggsy":147lrv4t said:


> Looks good Phil. Is there enough space to run things through your bandsaw without shifting it?


the output from the bandsaw passes the cabinet, so about 1.3m. I can angle if required for the odd larger job, or make mobile. 


Inspector":147lrv4t said:


> I like the invisible lathe. :lol: Pete


 I managed the legs, couldn’t even start to lift the bed on my own, that’s still in the garage, it weighs 120kg+ :? 


DBT85":147lrv4t said:


> Looking good Phil, I envy you having already finished the outside before the rubbish weather descended!


I’m very fortunate, what should have been the wet time was very dry, and now when it should be fine, it’s perfect for indoor working. Also while wet, I’m not expected to do anything in the garden, perfect.


----------



## Westwood

Can I ask a few questions related to the Hardieplank cladding which you finished a few pages back. 
I've got an insulation and over cladding project coming up as you know .
Best way to fix the cladding planks, i.e. hammer and nails, nail gun or pre drill and screw ? 
I guess nail gun is the easiest but I'm not desperate to buy one having never used one and would need help in choosing one. 
For fixing the Tyvek membrane and EPDM, staple gun , stapler tacker hammer or what ?
I'm hoping if you were doing yours again, you've now worked out your favourite fixing methods.
Thanks to you, I'm sorted on the gecko clamps - this will be a one man job


----------



## Sheptonphil

Westwood":1re5papf said:


> Can I ask a few questions related to the Hardieplank cladding which you finished a few pages back.
> I've got an insulation and over cladding project coming up as you know .
> Best way to fix the cladding planks, i.e. hammer and nails, nail gun or pre drill and screw ?
> I guess nail gun is the easiest but I'm not desperate to buy one having never used one and would need help in choosing one.
> For fixing the Tyvek membrane and EPDM, staple gun , stapler tacker hammer or what ?
> I'm hoping if you were doing yours again, you've now worked out your favourite fixing methods.
> Thanks to you, I'm sorted on the gecko clamps - this will be a one man job


Hi Westwood

I used a first fix nail gun with 51mm ring shank nails, this is the recommended fixing method, there is no need to predrill, and it certainly works. On the first course, I pre drilled with 3mm HSS drill and hand nailed half way in initially to give me the option of adjustment of this course to get it spot on as you have to do a bit of measuring, marking, chocking, and fixing and is easy to misalign. There’s a lot of nails to do, and a lot of beating about of the frame if using a hammer, although I did pop a couple of ring shanks in without drilling, it took a fair amount of whack to bust through the face surface. I have seen a vid of a user drilling every hole and screwing, that is just not really viable or necessary on a decent size job, you’d take three or four times as long. You can hire a gas or battery first fix gun for the one job, they’re not difficult to learn to use. Don't entertain an air line one, you shouldn’t be dragging an air line around up a ladder. 

For the Tyvek, I used a stapler to position it, a hammer tacker would work as well, it’s only to hold it temporarily. The main fixing is done with the counter battens that go on top the membrane and fixed to your studs. You’ll also be better off with the first fix nail gun for the counter battens as well, using 63mm ring shank. 

The EDPM strips are just stapled on the counter batten, they say 50mm wide, but I used 100mm as that is the roll of EDPM tape they sent. Of the 50m roll, I bet I’ve got over 40m left. 

If I was doing it again, I would pretty much do as above, hand nail first course, Gecko clamps for gauging and support, first fix gun. For cutting them to length, the 5” grinder with a cheap (Aldi) diamond blade is perfectly ok. A little dust, but damp the surface and wet cut and it’s not a problem. Wear PPE of course. The guillotine is a waste of money on a single job. It wouldn’t have cut my verge angle cuts or full length cuts for top or door reveals. 

I used a Swindon company and bought their aluminium end and corner trims, made a big difference to fit and finish. An expensive tube of their silicone, colour matched to the Hardie Plank was also a worthwhile purchase. 

For such a strong product when it is fitted, it really is quite delicate when in the 3.6m lengths, it has to be carried on edge.


----------



## Sheptonphil

I have to balance off the work to be done with the facilities available at any given time to do the work. So continuing the fit out, I have started the construction of the right hand side benches. I do not have the setup yet for a lot of sheet material work, so I decided to base it on kitchen carcasses as they are amply strong enough, no dearer (or cheaper) than buying 18mm ply to construct and will give me a good base to build my 30 drawer storage system. End panels and three joining panels are of 18mm ply. The final end support when creating a place to store the sander and its dust extractor will be twin 18mm ply. 

The far end is 1000x11300mm wide to accommodate the CNC then dropping down to 600. 

When setting out the bench top, it is set accurate enough to split the horizontal laser line. Perfect.  





The tops are made from 2400x1200x 44mm thick solid core firedoor blanks. These are stupid heavy, absolutely flat and will be lipped with a hardwood edging. The cut out in the top will be to hold a lowered mitre saw, not a mitre station as such, but a permanent home for a mitre saw for all cross cut work. This will also encourage me to keep the benches clear of [email protected] that just seems to accumulate on every horizontal surface.    I have been gifted three sheets of 12mm ply to construct the drawer sides, I think as the drawers will be shallow, 75mm for the most of them, 150mm for the bottom drawers, 6mm ply will be strong enough for the bases I think. The top drawers may only be 30mm deep.


----------



## flying haggis

I see you have skimped on the sockets then..............................................


----------



## DBT85

I bet moving 1220*2440*44mm fire door blanks was great fun Phil! 



flying haggis":3m3hxhq7 said:


> I see you have skimped on the sockets then..............................................


I've got 20 doubles in my basket for about 22m of wall!


----------



## Sheptonphil

flying haggis":1w0ftxq2 said:


> I see you have skimped on the sockets then..............................................


There’s three more doubles on that wall out of shot :shock: including one above the tall cabinet to power the radio. I can’t work anywhere without the radio on. In total there are twenty seven doubles and three fused outlets. As the sparky said on Tuesday “ you’ve got more sockets in here than the whole of the house”. (Not true now, as when I redecorated the main bedroom I added four new doubles, some with USB). The new kitchen will be well socketed too


DBT85":1w0ftxq2 said:


> I bet moving 1220*2440*44mm fire door blanks was great fun Phil!


Like you, doing the build on your own, you just invent methods of material handling that may not pass H&S, but certainly work. I will be using a whole 7ft x 3ft for the new workbench top as well.  I’ve also been given several offcuts 2400 x 400. Gotta be a use somewhere for it.


----------



## Westwood

Thanks Shepton , really informative and helpful post.
I've found a Paslode first fix gun that I can hire by the week for £60 or so, so I'll give that a go.
The guy in the shop felt that the first fix gun would be massive overkill for Hardieplank and suggested a finishing, smaller gun by Paslode but this only fires headless pins so that'll be a no. I see that Hardieplank's own videos feature the bigger nail gun , so that'll do for me.
I'm fixing into 44mm log cabin outer walls, so the 51mm ring shanks should be fine.
The geckos have arrived , thanks for your help with those. Just have to get them across the Channel next #-o 
I'll also use the guillotine - got one secondhand for £25 and its fine and almost dust free for all the straight cuts, not sure about the angled verge ones and the more fiddly ones- think I'll try my jig saw for those I think.
Seems we have other things in common. I'm a sucker for second hand fire doors and have a similar long bench down one side of my small shop. Mitre saw half way along but not lower like yours; I prefer the small surface level mobile fence or stop as on The Gosforth Handyman set up and need the bench for other things.
I have an attic level study worktop to renew , L shaped on plan and this will need three fire doors.
The fun part will be lifting them up three stories including a spiral staircase. 
I've done that before but that was 25 years ago  
Will be watching the next stages on your build with interest, best of luck and thanks again.....


----------



## Sheptonphil

Westwood":37er0o4j said:


> Seems we have other things in common. I'm a sucker for second hand fire doors and have a similar long bench down one side of my small shop.
> Will be watching the next stages on your build with interest, best of luck and thanks again.....


No problem you’re welcome. The firedoor blanks are new, I only bought two, but I have been given loads of ‘offcuts’ many are 2440mm long 400mm wide so perfect for the left hand bench construction which will be 400mm. 

I have had to commit a bit of time to the garden for a couple of days, but managed to get back in to do a bit more bench work. The right hand is constructed and topped off, but I ran out of lipping, so will pick some up tomorrow. I’ll wait to make the drawers for both sides all in one go. Wood for the stable door should arrive Thursday or Friday so that will take priority over drawers. 









Work has started on the left side as well, a new platform for the pillar drill which will run into the bench for a vice, sander and Proedge, with drawers and storage underneath for thicknesser etc.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Left side coming together. Pillar drill stand is made and the base support is set and tops cut to size. Will trim of the pointy bit and join them together in the morning, fasten them to the base and trim of with the lipping. Just the drawers and shelves to make for this side.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Spent a couple of days finishing off the bench build. Tops are joined and fitted to the supports, lipped with mahogany and sealed with three coats of polyurethane varnish, denibbed, waxed and buffed. Water and waste is connected to the sink, and have been gifted fifty Metro tiles to put around the sink worktop. 





The heavier tools have been brought up from the garage and placed in the workshop, the final positions of them will evolve over time. The lathe has already been reorientated 90 degrees, it just lent itself to going on the left wall. The dust and chip extraction will be harder to setup on this wall, but perfectly achievable. 




Pillar drill is its final place, and sits nicely on the lowered end of the left bench. 




All the wood has arrived to make the stable door, so that will be the project for early next week to make and fit it. Then unfortunately, the workshop will be on hold for two or three weeks whilst the garden raised planter walls are built, and filled ready for planting. This will get me enough Brownie points to get in the workshop and play again.

Always remember, you slide further on Bull S*** than you do on gravel.

There’s the full drawer system to construct on the right and drawers and shelves under the left bench. 
Oh, and shelving above the left and a cleat system on the right to construct, new top on the workbench and finish off the dirty room cupboards and tiling. Air line to be run round the workshop, skirting board to be fitted and painted, trunking capping to put on, top coat paint the door frames, then finally clear all the hand tools from the garage to the workshop.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Whilst the door is in glue up, I thought I had a bit of down time to start the drawer system. The first sixteen 2.5inch made and fitted, will add the drawer fronts in one go so the grain flows from a single sheet. Whilst the saw is setup I’ll finish the two larger drawers in each cabinet. The old Fern table saw has been repurposed as a grooving saw with the addition of a 6mm kerf blade. It’s made the job of making 1/4 1/4 1/4 joints quite efficient with 12mm and 6mm ply.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Rained off for the patio and garden walling project  , so another eight drawers assembled for the first four cabinets.  Struggled to keep a straight face when apologising for delaying Mrs S’s project.
Did manage a third of the work but I think the garden looking like a building site is wearing thin. 










Too wet, so back indoors.


----------



## Noggsy

That’s great patioing mate. Looks very modernist!


----------



## Sheptonphil

Noggsy":q0lju274 said:


> That’s great patioing mate. Looks very modernist!


Thanks, condition of my workshop was an extended width full length patio. I was never going to get away with it not happening. 

The patio is done, back to the workshop soon, after building the planters  .
Bit of a hicup with the door, I forgot to add glazing bars to the timber order, so bottom door is done, waiting to finish top door.

From this











To this. One happy wife.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Still slogging away with the drawers. 

Now up to twenty three fitted and working well.






Twelve more kits made











Assembled ready for sanding and fitting tomorrow.


----------



## Sheptonphil

35 and counting!

800mm ones and seven on the left side to do


----------



## Sheptonphil

800mm drawers made and fitted along with a keyboard slide out shelf for the CNC, and then on to the drawer fronts,










Twelve more fronts already made and ready to fit on the next wet day. Unfortunately, garden takes precedence for another week or two and I can only get work detail signed off if it’s too wet to work outside :?


----------



## Sheptonphil

Well, Thursday was wet again  so I had the opportunity to finish the right side 
















Coming together nicely.


----------



## Westwood

Looking good there, guess you'll need a numbered guide to remember what's in each drawer.....


----------



## Trigs

Cracking project, well done


----------



## Sheptonphil

Westwood":2orot40j said:


> Looking good there, guess you'll need a numbered guide to remember what's in each drawer.....


Going to be a guessing game for a while I think. :?


----------



## Sheptonphil

Trigs":2poracw3 said:


> Cracking project, well done


Thanks, it’s been a bit longer than I had planned in making them, but it looks half decent and will give an enormous storage capacity, so all in all worth the extra effort.


----------



## MikeG.

Wood racks. That's I want to see. Lots and lots of wood racks.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":17cob5cu said:


> Wood racks. That's I want to see. Lots and lots of wood racks.


Hang in there Mike,  they’re planned for above the drawer storage for lengths of timber stock and a sheet material rack to the right of the lathe.

Under the lathe will be a rack for turning blanks. I’ve ‘acquired’ a good few 12” discs of exotics for turning along with some square stock. 

Oh, and an external wood store to be built outside the back door against the boundary wall. Should be able to get a nine ft by three ft store, six feet tall out there, but that may not be till spring.


----------



## DBT85

Wow Phil you've been busy! Looking fantastic! I have plans for simething like that for storage but we'll see how long it takes


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> Wow Phil you've been busy! Looking fantastic! I have plans for simething like that for storage but we'll see how long it takes


Thanks, it‘s been too hot to work outside yesterday and today, so made the last seven drawers and fitted them in the shelved units on the left. The angled one was a bit trickier to work out, but finally got it. The drawer fronts for these are also made, just waiting for the varnish to dry so I can fit them. 





The glazing bar profile wood is here, so will also finish off the stable door, and hopefully get that hung this weekend. Too hot, too wet, this is excellent weather for keeping away from the garden.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Left side drawers finished.

Started bringing up boxes of hand tools from storage in the garage and loading the drawers. The drawers on both sides just eat the tools up  May have made too many. 




Hinging and adding the door furniture to the stable door next, ready for hanging at the weekend if it’s dry enough.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Finishing the trim on the door And fitted the hardwood weather board to the opening. Double glazed panels ordered for the top door. First fit is looking good, door stop to fit tomorrow then all the door furniture, remove the whole lot, stain the door and completely refit.

what finish for the door? I was proposing antique pine Sadolin Classic with a couple of coats of Sadolin extra on top. is there a better stain finish for new wood?


----------



## Inspector

Can I ask how you detail the doors so wind and water doesn't get in between the upper and lower doors?

Pete


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector said:


> Can I ask how you detail the doors so wind and water doesn't get in between the upper and lower doors?
> 
> Pete



the top of the bottom door has a rebate approx half thickness of door. In the rebate, there is a neoprene seal let into a channel.



The bottom of the top half has the mirror rebate. See pic two, when closed, the seal is compressed by the top door, no draught.





When fitted, there will be a horizontal weather bar on the lower face of the top door as a drip strip for run off. Similarly, the bottom door is rebated over the threshold weatherboard, sealed on the horizontal seal strip. There will also be a weather bar at the bottom face lower door to pass water on to the slope of the weatherboard.


----------



## Inspector

Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Both door weatherboards fitted, four coats of preservative and the doorstop attached. Bolts to inside to join the doors together and one to hold the lower one closed when top open. Just the glass panels and lock to fit when they turn up on Monday.
Cleats have been cut and screwed to the right hand wall ready for the tool and wood racks. 







Before, total waste of space with the shed I inherited with the house in January





And now.





Is essence, the build is complete, it’s now just the internal fitting out, dust extraction system, and refurbing the workbench with a new top, dogs and a couple of features I’m working on. Will post a tour when all the outfitting is complete and the tools and wood stock have all been allocated space.

Doing the first couple of jobs in there so far for the house, floating shelves from scaffold plank for the Mrs‘s relax room and stripping, repairing and refinishing a coffee table, this is a fantastic workspace. Light, spacious, clean, comfortable and bright, all the tools to hand and stored where I can find them. a really inspiring working space which will only get better as it evolves. I’ve been told my first project should be a huge wall clock, SHMBO recons I lose all track of time when I’m in there and really ought to just make room for a bed in there as well


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## clogs

think I'd get me mates round for a barby after the pour......
Prep everything and just hit it......2 lecky mixers an 6 guys will knock it of easy....
a few sheets of 20mm ply in the high traffic areas, with plastic on top and below...this will protect the ply so u can use it for shelving or cupboard etc.....
sounds to me do the prep one weekend and then get going.....
tell the neighbours what ur doing.....so no surprises....


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## Noggsy

Fantastic work Phil, you should be very proud. I look forward to seeing the tour inside when it all settles down. Thanks for posting, I’ve really enjoyed it.


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## Sheptonphil

Thanks, it’s been a journey I never intended to make on my own, but now having done it, I can (and do) smile every time I open the door. 

The fit out inside may take a good few weeks, as this project has now been downgraded by Mrs S to below her kitchen refit which was planned to be done before the workshop was to be started. With Covid’s intervention, projects were reprioritised in order of material availability, and with kitchen manufactures shut my project got elevated to number 1 

look out for the tour, it will be a further transformation.


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## biskit

Your build looks very well done, fits in with the house and now with the paving  I bet SWMBO is well pleased. I'm looking forward to the setup inside.


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## Sheptonphil

biskit said:


> Your build looks very well done, fits in with the house and now with the paving  I bet SWMBO is well pleased. I'm looking forward to the setup inside.



Thanks, Mrs S is well pleased.

Unfortunately, she cannot see any project in its finished form until it’s built. Seeing anything on plan means absolutely nothing as she can’t see the 3D visage. 
the times I’ve had to say ‘trust me, it’ll look great when it’s finished’ didn’t do anything to allay fears of a ‘shack’ ruining her garden. 

internals are in progress, now it is at last a secure place, I can get the odd half day doing bits between getting the raised planters built, filled with the soil from the patio oversite and planted up. The rest of the garden can then wait till spring whilst the kitchen is transformed into a kitchen diner with the removal of a wall, fortunately I’m not doing the major works on this, just the tiling, flooring and decorating.

rather than drip feed, will post a single WIP of the internals here in due course.


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## DBT85

I neglected to ask, which kitchen cabinets did you get? B&Q?

Did you find a nice supplier of cheap drawer slides? and how about the fire door blanks?


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## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> I neglected to ask, which kitchen cabinets did you get? B&Q?
> 
> Did you find a nice supplier of cheap drawer slides? and how about the fire door blanks?


Yes, B&Q cabinets, bought through trade point at 5% off, were £22 each, quite a decent cabinet for the use I put them to. On the bay there are a number of slide suppliers, in the end I used full extension,you lose just a little too much open exposure with the 3/4 extension. The first lot of 3/4 I bought and fitted I modified by moving the retainer clip back 70mm, they are now all but full extension, I returned forty 3/4 sets . Another big advantage using the full extension is the tolerance. With 3/4 extension, finished drawers must be within 1-2mm of exact width required and no wider than exact as they will bind. With full extension, there is up to a good 6mm tolerance, the drawer can be made fractionally smaller, the fixing plate on the full extension slide will accommodate the difference. The cost difference is not good though. 3/4 are sub £2 full extension are a fraction under a fiver. Made a big difference on the extra forty sets.

The fire door blanks from Howdens make a fantastic worktop for the units, whilst they certainly look a lot nicer than laminate, I’m not sure they are any cheaper than kitchen worktops, especially when the edge lipping cost is added to the mix. An 8ft x 4ft sheet is £100+ and lipping is £8 for 8ft length.

I was fortunate to get a ply deal with tradepoint, hardwood ply £22 a sheet for 18mm and £26 for 12mm for the drawers. I grabbed four sheets of each at that price as I wanted 18mm for drawer fronts and cleat wall and 12 mm to make all the drawers and cleat storage trays.


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## DBT85

Thanks for the info. I've had a trade point card for years but frankly never used it as they are still expensive!

I always go at least full extension. I'm even tempted to get the ones that actually go further this time so that they clear the drawer above.

I was thinking either fire doors like yourself or just doubling up some hardwood ply as a cheaper option that would look and act the same in practise. Was the lipping from them also? I always watch videos and someone just goes "and here I've just pulled this perfect bit of hardwood from my extensive and exotic collection" and I look at my pile of CLS or redwood offcuts .


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## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> Thanks for the info. I've had a trade point card for years but frankly never used it as they are still expensive!
> 
> I always go at least full extension. I'm even tempted to get the ones that actually go further this time so that they clear the drawer above.
> 
> I was thinking either fire doors like yourself or just doubling up some hardwood ply as a cheaper option that would look and act the same in practise. Was the lipping from them also? I always watch videos and someone just goes "and here I've just pulled this perfect bit of hardwood from my extensive and exotic collection" and I look at my pile of CLS or redwood offcuts .



TradePoint doing 18mm ply at £22 was the draw As it was £6 a board cheaper than anywhere else and delivered free. I guess they’d got stuffed with stock as lockdown took hold. The lipping was from Howdens. 

Door blanks are 44mm thick, heavy and flat. I guess two sheets of 18mm stuck together would be a solid enough top.


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