# Copper pipe cost/quality at screwfix



## Woody Alan (8 Aug 2007)

Hi

I am doing a major overhaul of my groundfloor heating, and after umming and harring about whether to use plastic I decided on copper and digging up the floor to fit galvanised duct tray. I need to buy in about 50-60 metres of 22mm pipe and screwfix seem to be about the best price. The thing that concerns me is what is the quality of the pipe like. It all conforms to BS standard but I have had some of the Wickes rubbish in the past and the stuff won't bend in a bender without wrinkling. I need to know the Screwfix stuff is good quality. 
Can anyone help? Thanks in advance.

Cheers Alan


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## SketchUp Guru (8 Aug 2007)

I don't know the answer to your question but I'm curious as to why you would choose copper over plastic these days. Over here houses a getting plumbed with cross linked Polyethylene (PEX) tubing. If I were replumbing my house now I would replace the existing copper with PEX. Actually, I bet I could turn in the opper plumbing in my house for recycling and get more than the cost of the PEX for it.

In the US the value of copper is high enough that people have been stealing the electrical wiring out of farmers' barns (some of these thieves aren't bright enough to make sure the power is off first and electrocute themselves) and plumbing electrical contractors are frequently reporting the theft of copper from their yards or from building sites.


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## Slim (8 Aug 2007)

I have reservations about plastic fittings, because of the fact that it relies on a rubber seal. Fine for a number of years, but will it last for a long time?

As for your question Alan, I would find your local independant plumbers merchant. When I was doing out my house, I went into my local and chummed up the guys behind the counter. The advice they gave was invaluable and they were about half the price of Screwfix. They also gave me extra discount when I asked for it.

HTH


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## Woody Alan (8 Aug 2007)

To satisfy your curiosity, as an American you probably know about the class action lawsuit brought about by some of the early "plastic". Who is to say this "new" plastic is any better, speaking as an individual here not as someone making a living from it, the manufacturers?. 
I am laying my pipe in a tray as I have said and plastic joints take up more room. In truth the cost between the systems may surpise you in this country, whilst the plastic pipe may be cheaper the fittings are much more expensive, making the two set ups cost similar so given a choice copper is better because I have the time to do the job.
Having said all that when I do upstairs in phase 2 I will use plastic because I can drill through joists and because of the flexibility get the pipe to it's destination without any or very few joints, almost impossible in copper unless nothching in which weakens the joists more and is a pain on crossovers. 
EDIT I forgot to add there is the reduced diameter with plastic, also upstairs which won't need so much flow or heat on much at all, I will be able to access the centre of the house to radially feed with smaller diameter plastic, which I can't do downstairs. 

Alan


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## motownmartin (8 Aug 2007)

Woody Alan":2pllc3l5 said:


> I have had some of the Wickes rubbish in the past and the stuff won't bend in a bender without wrinkling.
> 
> Cheers Alan


Do you insert the spring inside the pipe before bending? i am no plumber but I have installed my own central heating and never had a problem bending the pipes with a spring inserted for support, unless you try to bend it at an acute angle, but then you would use an elbow, well I did.

Martin


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## Woody Alan (8 Aug 2007)

> Do you insert the spring inside the pipe before bending


No because that's not the purpose of a spring. a spring is for freehand bending. I must say when using quality pipe I have never had a problem hence my question.

Alan


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## motownmartin (8 Aug 2007)

Woody Alan":2ysypxyv said:


> > Do you insert the spring inside the pipe before bending
> 
> 
> No because that's not the purpose of a spring. a spring is for freehand bending. I must say when using quality pipe I have never had a problem hence my question.
> ...



SORRY


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## SketchUp Guru (8 Aug 2007)

Slimjim, we have been using the same kind of plastic tubing for years here in the hospital. Much of it and its fittings carry pure O2 which tends to hasten the oxidation and degradation of rubber O-rings. We have applications that are 20 years old and older that have no leaks in fitting and they're under higher pressure than the typical water supply lines.

I believe the seals are silicone now which is better than rubber.

Alan, I see your point about the fittings. I was just asking because I was curious.


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## RogerS (8 Aug 2007)

Slimjim81":2vhu2l8v said:


> I have reservations about plastic fittings, because of the fact that it relies on a rubber seal. Fine for a number of years, but will it last for a long time?
> 
> HTH



We fitted Hep20 in our central heating system over 15 years ago and no leaks so far  . While renovating the cottage I found one of the soldered copper joints simply pulled out, it was that good!


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## ike (8 Aug 2007)

Screwfix pipe bends OK with a proper pipe bender. Don't use a spring - it's a faff. Even my slightly mickey mouse £15 Draper bender does an acceptable job. All copper pipe is much thinner than it used to be but as already said - as long as it meets British Standard....

cheers,

Ike


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## Woody Alan (9 Aug 2007)

Martin I thought one of us had slightly the wrong end of the stick  makes a change for it not to be me 

Roger, the joint couldn't have been soldered properly properly then or it wouldn't have pulled out, so illustrating the point most failures are down to installation, and to be fair I think it is becoming more readily accepted that most plastic failures are in the short term and due to fitting problems. (i.e. not following instruction) cleanliness is paramount. 

Dave I hope I have gone some way to satisfying your curiosity 

Slimjim thanks for the advice will try that.

Ike bang on thge money answered the original question if I can't get a local price match I will "chance my arm" I certainly do have a proper bender 

Cheers Alan


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## Jake (9 Aug 2007)

Screwfix stuff is fine, but their delivery can be a bit brutal, the ends were crushed on the lot I bought - and wouldn't give me any discount worth a mention. Haven't been back to them for copper pipe for that reason. 

I haven't had the problem you mention with Wickes pipe, which I've used a fair bit - always works fine for me. 

The last lot I bought a couple of weeks ago ... from B&Q. Two bundles of 3m 22mm pipes, all of which had got bent about 50cm from one end. The manager discounted them down to £30 for the two. All of it is usable apart from the inch or so of the actual bend. Steal! 

I also use plumbers merchants now and then, but at least around me they tend to be more expensive than Wickes (at least for cash accounts), which is why I end up going back there usually. 

It's all thinner and harder than old pipe.


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## Woody Alan (9 Aug 2007)

Thanks Jake 
I've just been quoted £6 a metre +vat by my local plumbcentre, he said if I went in he'd be able to do a little more, but freely admitted he can't beat wickes or B&Q . Screwfix are £3.10 a metre on a bundle. I don't suppose you can recall B&Q's price can you, because if I can get an undamaged one by seeing it that might save delivery damage hassle which is bound to occur the way these herbet's handle stuff these days.

Alan


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## Jake (9 Aug 2007)

The shelf tickets at the time were flashing recent reductions - I think I recall that 30m of 15mm had been reduced from £50 to £40, but I can't recall the base price of the 22mm packs. Cheaper than screwfix though, by the looks of it (if they haven't put it back up since). I'd call your local branches though, as B&Q prices seem to vary.


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## Woody Alan (9 Aug 2007)

Thanks Jake will call in I have to return one of their crappy pipe cutters that cuts a nice spiral down the pipe instead of a circular cut. When I investigated the roller are not perfectly at right angles to the cutting wheel. :roll: 

Alan


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## gwaithcoed (9 Aug 2007)

Hello Alan,

Never had any trouble with Wickes pipe. If you do use plastic make sure you support it as any sagging between supports after the heat has been in it will give you hellish air lock problems if you have to drain down and refill later on.

Alan.


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## KevinOKane (31 Aug 2013)

The value of copper has been increasing in a number of years. As an experienced water and gas plumber, I have witnessed a number of thefts of copper in my area. I would suggest to use the latest plastic plumbing materials as these are inexpensive compared to copper, and the materials are people-friendly. No danger of the materials being toxic. Manufacturing of these has improved over the years.


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## Steve Maskery (31 Aug 2013)

Welcome to the forum Kevin.
I suspect that the OP has finished his plumbing project at some point in the last 6 years....
S


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## MIGNAL (31 Aug 2013)

Not sure about that. Us men are renowned for never finishing proje


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## No skills (31 Aug 2013)

I started laying an oak floor around 5 1/2 years ago, not finished it yet.


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## gregmcateer (1 Sep 2013)

Woody Alan,

I have used copper and plastic over the years, (JG Speedfit is my favourite plastic one). 

If I understand you correctly, you are putting underfloor heating in solid downstairs - if so, I am not sure why you are using trays - that would be more likely if between joists. (Though I even used battens and screed between joists in one zone).

Regarding joints - I have just installed plastic pipe over 75mm of insulation board, then screeded with 75mm floor screed. It is over 50sqm, with 4-port manifold for the 4 zones. There are NO JOINTS under the floor - just four loops out and back to the manifold, as per the manufacturer's, (and all installers to whom I have spoken) advice.

I used kit from http://www.wundafloorheating.co.uk/ if that's any help.

Cheers

Greg


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## Woody Alan (7 Sep 2013)

Hi,

Well as the post is resurrected, I can say not only did I finish the project but I also moved house about 4 years ago. Going back over it, to answer some questions I finally got the pipe from B&Q and it bent ok in my bender. Maybe the wickes pipe was poorer quality just at that time I do know it was not such an orangey red more pink hue. 
I used tray for future access or I would have been using vermiculite and rescreeding. I was very pleased with the end result although more work and cost the end result was a permanently flexible ring around the ground floor for future alterations, with no significant mess. 
"I believe" rubber O rings WILL degrade at some point however far in the future. The other point and quite a significant one given the size of the tray is that plastic joints are enormous space wasters and woul;d not have fitted in the tray .
The only time I would consider using plastic is when access to fit copper is impossible due to joists etc and flexibilty is required.
All personal opinion of course. 

Regards Alan


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## Eric The Viking (12 Sep 2013)

Since we're on the subject...

... I used to hire pipe benders years ago before buying my own. They don't need to be visibly worn to crinkle pipe. I got so frustrated once I took a length of copper into the hire shop and challenged them to find me a bender that didn't crinkle it. They couldn't. My "new" Record bender (now 25 years old) still doesn't crinkle pipe. I put this down to keeping it clean, taking care of the straight formers (easily damaged at the edges), occasional oiling of the rollers, and it being well made in the first place.

You can help the bend by removing any work-hardening in the copper tube before starting. This is handy for those tricky, complex shapes involving short bends in different directions. Run a blowlamp, ideally MAPP gas, over the tube length of the bend before starting, to get it pretty hot, then allow it to air cool (no need to quench - it's not steel). You can do this at the start of the job, and leave it to cool while you're getting on with the measurements.

Modern tube is definitely thinner-walled than the tube of 20+ years ago. I think it is more likely to crinkle, as there's less metal to stretch round the outside. I still use copper though, as the companies offering 50+ year guarantees on their plastic fittings won't be around then to make good any claims, and anyway, as I recently found out with a leaking stainless cylinder, suppliers have more get out clauses than a fishing net used for tadpoles. 

The primary reasons for using plastic are lower capital cost, and faster installation (of smaller sizes). It's attractive to installers, but neither of these have any bearing on the value of plastic to a householder. Many plumbers, probably the majority, will say "I've fitted (insert big number here) houses with plastic and never had a problem", that's pretty much ALL they do - fit . They're not necessarily around five years later when the joints might fail. 

The fact is that NOBODY knows what the longevity of plastic joints will be. Ageing is very hard to simulate, as are duty cycles. For example, joints usually have a pressure rating (often 3 bar, which is useless for practical porpoises in a tall house*), but there's no spec. for pressure cycling - pipes that have pressure changes. That's many pipes in a typical cold- or hot-water system.

I know of at least one housing association, which commissions a lot of new build in our area, that forbids ANY inaccessible plastic joints. They don't trust the systems that much. It's either a complete unbroken run, or it's in copper.

The one thing plastic pipes don't do, is corrode. With that single exception, I greatly prefer copper.

E.

(*32ft of water height = 1bar: what allowance for overpressure should you make? I think 100% isn't enough at these low pressures)


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## RogerS (12 Sep 2013)

Eric The Viking":3bde4opm said:


> ......
> The one thing plastic pipes don't do, is corrode.
> 
> E.
> ....



Or get nicked. Plastic works for me and I won't be around in 50 years time.


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## Eric The Viking (12 Sep 2013)

RogerS":q77ktffp said:


> Eric The Viking":q77ktffp said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



Fair point. I know BT funded their switch to fibre optics years ago from the scrap value of the copper, so we may be forced to use plastic soon. That doesn't make it ideal though, IMHO.

E.


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## RogerS (17 Oct 2013)

One minor drawback of using plastic that I forgot to mention. 

It only applies if you let the central heating water languish in some parts due to shutting of rads in some rooms etc. If your system has any tendency to creating hematite in it (and you don't have one of those Magnaclean devices fitted (and if you haven't got one fitted then get it fitted ASAP!)) then said hematite for some reason or other comes out of solution very easily in plastic pipes and sits there gradually blocking the pipe up. It seems to prefer doing this in plastic as copper pipe in the same circuit seems hardly to be affected.


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## Graham Orm (17 Oct 2013)

I use John Guest plastic all the time for bathroom and kitchen work, but 15mm only. If 22mm I use copper as I've found that the 22mm allows too much movement of the joint and they weep occasionally. If it was mine I'd use 22mm plastic with compression fittings. Copper is way too expensive now. However compression elbows will have a drastic effect on flow against radiused bends, depends how many you're fitting and the length of run. You could always use plastic and revert to copper for any long bends using compression fittings.


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## Eric The Viking (17 Oct 2013)

About two years ago, I happened to be around when a "plumber" used water to 'test-pressurise' the plastic under the floor of a friend's new bathroom (lots of t-joints and elbows). He'd been telling me how I was a dinosaur for not using it, how easy and fast it is, etc. 

I'd been biting my tongue about the quality of the work (mate's rates, etc.), and had decided to stay well clear for fear of causing an upset. I genuinely just happened to be there at the time.

For 15 secs. or so of shouting, until the twit on the stop tap got the message, it did a passable impression of the Trevi fountains. It wrecked the ceiling decoration below. 

All quite unnecessary. Any 'saving' from not using copper went in that 15 secs.

Great stuff - for decorators.

E.


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## RogerS (17 Oct 2013)

Eric The Viking":3ag5qbsl said:


> ....
> All quite unnecessary. Any 'saving' from not using copper went in that 15 secs.
> 
> Great stuff - for decorators.
> ...



Nothing wrong with plastic water pipe whatsoever. Nothing is 'silly person' proof. If he didn't push the pipes in properly that was him....not the system.

Bloody daft pressurising with water anyway. You can get a very simple gizmo that you fit over an open end, and then pressurise via a side nozzle. Has a gauge on it....leave it overnight to see if the pressure drops. 

As it would in lousy incorrectly soldered copper joints :wink:


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## Eric The Viking (17 Oct 2013)

RogerS":15npgh7b said:


> Nothing wrong with plastic water pipe whatsoever.


With respect, Roger you can't know that. Neither can most of us. Specifically, there are lifespans quoted that are meaningless, and in any case significantly shorter than copper. Say it has a claimed "50-year lifespan": is that MTBF, in which case what does the curve look like, what failure modes are the early ones, how were those predictions obtained (test methodology, etc.)? People want to believe this sort of thing. The same questions need to be asked for all the jointing systems, too. 

How do those numbers stack up against copper? What are its failure modes and MTBF, and why? 

I've noticed a pattern: generally speaking, the older the building system, the better its longevity. Stone buildings with lime mortar and oak beams tend to do pretty well, although I appreciate that hollowed trunks as water pipes don't last all that long 



> Nothing is 'silly person' proof. If he didn't push the pipes in properly that was him....not the system.


I quite agree, except that he's apparently done this work lots of times. How can you not develop a 'feel' for properly-fitted joints? If you can't, some of the blame lies with the system, surely? Although I check well (and pressure test), I can tell if a soldered joint isn't right as it's being made, and usually correct it. It's a very long time since I've had one leak (compression fittings are another story though :-( ).



> Bloody daft pressurising with water anyway. You can get a very simple gizmo that you fit over an open end, and then pressurise via a side nozzle. Has a gauge on it....leave it overnight to see if the pressure drops.


I agree here, too, which is why I mentioned the water specifically.

The trouble is that, never mind the real longevity (which I question anyway), plastic has a whole new set of problems and working practices. IMHO, it's _less_ suited to the DIY/handyman, because the mistakes are less apparent to a layman, for example inaccessible joints, earth bonding, and so on.

If I were fitting out farm buildings, I wouldn't hesitate to use plastic. But I won't have it in the house permanently.

E.

As it would in lousy incorrectly soldered copper joints :wink:[/quote]


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## RogerS (17 Oct 2013)

ETV...we were specifically talking about the joints and not the pipe in this context. I agree that there might be a question of longevity. But that is not the issue in this case. The only reason why a brand new system will leak is if it is not put together properly.....ie he hasn't pushed the pipe in sufficiently to engage. Doesn't matter how many times he has done it in the past. This time, he did it wrong. The leaks are down to him.....not the system.

For the record, our Hep2O central heating system is over 20 years old and no leaks.


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## Gerry (17 Oct 2013)

My house is nearly 50 years old now and still has the original plastic plumbing, Still quite flexible, not brittle and no leaks in the 24 years I have owned it.

Gerry


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## Graham Orm (17 Oct 2013)

Eric The Viking":315shrkw said:


> RogerS":315shrkw said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing wrong with plastic water pipe whatsoever.
> ...


[/quote]

I use end feed copper fittings, compression fittings on copper and plastic, and most of all (daily), plastic pipe and fittings. Never pressure tested anything since I was at college. If I felt my work needed testing I'd pack up tomorrow. Honestly can't remember the last leak I had.


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## Graham Orm (17 Oct 2013)

Gerry":vmyxxhda said:


> My house is nearly 50 years old now and still has the original plastic plumbing, Still quite flexible, not brittle and no leaks in the 24 years I have owned it.
> 
> Gerry



Are we talking water or rainwater here? There was no plastic pipe that I know of 50 years ago, in fact they were still installing lead.


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## Cowboy _Builder (17 Oct 2013)

Grayorm":1t3ws00y said:


> Gerry":1t3ws00y said:
> 
> 
> > My house is nearly 50 years old now and still has the original plastic plumbing, Still quite flexible, not brittle and no leaks in the 24 years I have owned it.
> ...


When I started in the building trade in 1966 plastic pipes were being used as well as lead, my gaffer at the time said it would never catch on and wouldn't have anything to do with it ....well he got that right didn't he ... :roll:


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## Graham Orm (17 Oct 2013)

Cowboy _Builder":3gqdltru said:


> Grayorm":3gqdltru said:
> 
> 
> > Gerry":3gqdltru said:
> ...



You could have won a pint off me with that one! :shock:


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## Eric The Viking (18 Oct 2013)

The morning before my wife was due to come home from hospital with our youngest daughter, I went to wash my hands in the downstairs cloakroom of our newly-bought larger house, only to feel soapy warm water all over my feet. 

The lead waste pipe, which I hadn't spotted when we'd looked round the place, had detached itself from the bottom of the basin. 

Deep, er, joy.

E.

PS: I should add I had form: our eldest's triumphant arrival home to our previous property was similarly marred by the intense and 'interesting' smell of a dead mouse behind the architrave of our bedroom door. It had been carried into the house in the washing basket, probably from the long grass by the line. The family agreed that the ensuing fright when it jumped out, and the chase around the bedroom (until it reached the relative safety of an unfinished wall socket) had actually brought on labour. 

I became 'aware' it hadn't survived a couple of days earlier, but couldn't find the corpse. When I finally did find it, with a torch and a mirror-on-a-stick, I still couldn't reach it without major demolition. I had to entomb it with expanding foam (the smell eventually went a couple of weeks later). New mum and new son came home to wrecked woodwork and a sheepish husband/dad. The mouse got its revenge, and I got the first entry in my 'criminal record'.


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## Gerry (18 Oct 2013)

Grayorm":2lkfmwiv said:


> Gerry":2lkfmwiv said:
> 
> 
> > My house is nearly 50 years old now and still has the original plastic plumbing, Still quite flexible, not brittle and no leaks in the 24 years I have owned it.
> ...



Water!
The only downside is it's not quite standard 15mm so a special (read expensive) compression fitting adapter is required to connect to 15mm pipe. All of the original joints in the pipe are glued.

The House was built in the late 50's so it's actually nearly 55 years old now!

Gerry


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