# quality planes



## Phil Pascoe (18 Aug 2012)

I've asked this one once before, but didn't get an answer (someone, somewhere, must have an opinion!) - how do marples planes and irons compare to Record and Stanley? I know they tended to be more expensive, but was that in any way justified?


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Aug 2012)

Not quite sure how to answer this one.

Going way back into the mists of time, there were two Marples companies, William Marples and Joseph Marples. Joseph stuck mainly to making marking tools, squares and the like - and they still do. William was the larger concern, making (among other things) chisels, brace bits, plane irons and wooden planes (which they continued to make into the 1960s). As far as I'm aware (and I stand to be corrected) they didn't make metal-bodied planes. They evetually (late 1970s?) became part of the same group that owned Record, and in the late '80s or early 90's, the brand name Marples was used on metal-bodied planes, probably made in the old Record works. These were as good (or bad) as any made in that era.


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## Vann (19 Aug 2012)

Hi. Marples did market metal bodied planes, from about 1935 to 1969 AFAIK. It is possible they had someone else manufacture the planes for them, but this was well before the Record/Marples merger.

I have two Marples M5s (No.5 size). They're painted red and have the Marples "shamrock" cast in the bed, solid frogs (i.e. not ribbed) with ogee shaped top; three piece lateral; and fabricated (i.e. sheetmetal, not cast) yokes. They appear to be heavy and well made, not quite as fine as Record planes of the period, but better quality than Rapier planes. 

As both my planes were bought incomplete, and I have yet to make one good one out of the two, I cannot say how they perform.

HTH. PM me with your e-mail address if you want a copy of the Marples 1938 catalogue - PDF (which I lifted off the internet from somewhere).

Cheers, Vann.


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## jimi43 (19 Aug 2012)

I think for planes the order of quality is:

Old Stanley USA...

Old Records

Anchor (Sweden)

Records up to 70s

Stanleys up to 70s

Marples/WS/Acorn

Rapier

New rubbish any brand

This is just my opinion based on the examples that have passed through my hands/ workshop over the years obtained from bootfairs.

The biggest surprise for me was the Anchor...the Swedish one I got recently. I didn't fettle it at all..just sharpened the Swedish steel...used it and haven't put it down as a fast stock removing jack since! It's a wonderful plane!







It's a little darling! If you see one...snap it up!






Jim


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## AndyT (19 Aug 2012)

This rather small picture from the David Stanley auction site confirms what Vann said about red painted metal planes:






(The display case fetched £2000 btw.)

The 1938 Marples catalogue is easily available from Rose Tools (alongside many other goodies) at http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id220.html

It shows metal planes on pp 53-55.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Aug 2012)

Yes, both of mine are red. The 5 I've not used as the sole has a twist in it that I've not felt inclined to take out - it has heavily laquered darkened beech handles. The 7 is a beautiful plane with rosewood handles - the only fault I can find is that the handle is a bit small for me.


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## woodbrains (19 Aug 2012)

Hello,

Marples also made a smoother with adjustable mouth. The X04. It had some things in common with Veritas smoothers and I'll bet Veritas designers had a look at this model when they developed the design. It had a fixed frog and a plate in front of the mouth that could be move fore and aft and then locked with a couple of screws. The tote was a loop handle that joined the frog at the top, like the aforementioned Veritas. They dated from the '50s and were innovative and different then the usual Bailey style planes. Probably should have caught on, but didn't. Cannot confirm the quality of these as never owned one, but I do know that Robert Ingham uses one.

The Marples after Record took over are much better than Stanleys of the same vintage and the irons are pretty good and a little thicker than the Stanley's. This quality soon dropped off, though. If you can get one of the early Marples/Record, you will find them good enough to fettle and use and will probably be cheap, too. (late '80s early '90s) I have an 04 which I love, with home made replacement handles. They can be identified by having Marples cast in the body around the knob, with Record cast on the lever cap, but not painted red (logo, that is, just left chrome). It will have a cam locking cap, not the later brass screw, when quality was poor and should be avoided. The only thing I do not like about the planes of this vintage, is the lateral adjuster is a stamped out bit of steel, rather than the ones with the roller riveted on, like earlier models. Aside this, the castings are good and heavy and they did come with wooden handles, allbeit the rear one in need of a bit of re-shaping. They were better then the red Marples before amalgamation. Old Records are still the best and I have a slight preference for the early Records over the early USA Stanleys, if I'm honest, though I suspect this is so marginal that my preference for British made, edged the Record.

Mike.


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## Cheshirechappie (19 Aug 2012)

Vann and AndyT - thank you - I stand corrected!

Phil - I think the best way to remove the twist from the plane's sole would be to file it out. Use a smooth cut flat file, say 8" or 10" (note NOT a hand file - a flat file has a slight belly along it's length, which will help in directing pressure right where it's needed), and a good straightedge to check progress. Grip the plane upside down in a vice (engineer's type for preference), check carefully where the high spots are, and apply the file with a little finger pressure over the 'hump'. Work very carefully, just a few strokes at a time, and just on the highest spots, checking constantly. It'll probably go quicker than you'd think - hence the emphasis on working carefully. Once the twist has all but gone, lap the sole in the well-known way with wet-and-dry on plate glass.


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## Togalosh (21 Aug 2012)

jimi43":367new15 said:


> I think for planes the order of quality is:
> 
> Old Stanley USA...
> 
> ...



Hi Jimi, does this mean you do not rate new non-rubbish planes..or you have not included them as they were not mentioned in initial post?

What are your top 5 of all time?

Togs


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## jimi43 (21 Aug 2012)

Hi Togs

I have tried a Clifton and it was glorious...and if you can justify it...buy one. LN and Veritas too...lovely planes.

I have not had the money to outlay on any of these to justify buying them...I suppose I would go for a bevel up one if I did...but my infills do all the jobs I need.....all of them are better than the Bailey style planes.

If we are still talking Bailey type planes which I have...the Anchor has to come out top for a No.5

The old Stanley 4C is my favourite smoother....

For jointer...the Record SS No.7 but I am on the look out for a larger infill...... :mrgreen: There maybe one in the pipeline! :wink: 

The No.601/2 is a nice adjustable mouth block plane...I have an old one of those too....but it doesn't come near the quality of my old chariots.

I have never regretted restoring old bootfair planes...it's half the fun to me but if you have the dosh and don't want to restore anything...Clifton, Veritas and LN are all wonderful...and of course they are an advance on older planes....maybe! :mrgreen: ....well....all but these two...











Cheers

Jim


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## Togalosh (21 Aug 2012)

Those 2 look like real beauties !

..the first one is like what RichardT makes (I was very impressed by those).

Would I have to delve deep into plane history to sort the good from the bad & the ugly befoe going to boot sales?.

..It'd be a give away to the seller if I got out my BS939 set square before any deal was done!


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## bugbear (22 Aug 2012)

jimi43":2rtx9om9 said:


> I think for planes the order of quality is:
> 
> Old Stanley USA...
> 
> ...



There are probably lots of "one-off" brands, of varying quality. I know of someone who collects #4 Bailey planes, searching out as many manufacturers as possible, and has hundreds. Even Preston made some Bailey-ish planes. But I don't think anyone should be looking out for "Anchor" as a goal - I've never even seen one, in all my tool-related activities.

I can recommend Marples (red ones, discussed elsewhere) and Woden. Both good, honest, well made castings. The Marples blades (and the blade is half the battle) are excellent. I certainly wouldn't group Marples with WS and Acorn, which were much more the handyman end of the market.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (22 Aug 2012)

i totally agree BB...not seen any myself apart from this one...and if anyone does find one..they should report it immediately to me being the only known owner of one...so I can collect the set! 8) 

Whatever you do...do not buy it for yourself...they are total rubbish and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands! :mrgreen: :wink: 

Jim


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## bugbear (22 Aug 2012)

woodbrains":2ktqb23j said:


> Hello,
> 
> Marples also made a smoother with adjustable mouth. It had some things in common with Veritas smoothers and I'll bet Veritas designers had a look at this model when they developed the design. It had a fixed frog and a plate in front of the mouth that could be move fore and aft and then locked with a couple of screws. The tote was a loop handle that joined the frog at the top, like the aforementioned Veritas. They dated from the '50s and were innovative and different then the usual Bailey style planes. Probably should have caught on, but didn't. Cannot confirm the quality of these as never owned one, but I do know that Robert Ingham uses one.



Those should be avoided. In particular, if you see one on eBay, don't bid on it.

BugBear (possibly with a hidden agenda...)


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## Vann (23 Aug 2012)

Marples planes (from Marples 1959 catalogue)






And the exciting NEW X4...




Cheers, Vann (who just got his computer back from repair today - complete with numerous gratuitous tool photos...)


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## bugbear (23 Aug 2012)

Vann":2xzwp7mq said:


> Marples planes (from Marples 1959 catalogue)



NIce catalogue!

BugBear


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## pedder (23 Aug 2012)

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthread ... ed&sb=5&o=

X4 in flesh


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## AndyT (23 Aug 2012)

Well, that's increased the number of people thinking "if I spot one of those on eBay in among the ordinary no 4s I'll be the only one who knows what it is and will snaffle a bargain" beyond the maximum number!

Sorry BB if you've been searching for some time. ( I'm sure I have seen one on eBay, and spotted that funny wiggle on the lever cap, but didn't realise what it was!)


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## Vann (23 Aug 2012)

bugbear":1m1wltb2 said:


> NIce catalogue!


I don't own the catalogue  The seller wanted more money than I had available at the time, but he posted over a dozen pages and I copied most of them to my PC. 
I have more pics - but this site won't let me post anything over 256whatsits, and rejected two pages at 258whatsits. If people are interested I'll transfer them to our other PC, reduce their size (can't do it on this PC), and then post.

Cheers, Vann

ps I'm intrigued to see that X4 page is now on WN in the States - from NZ to UK and then to USA in the blink of an eye - isn't the internet wonderful :!: :wink:


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## Gregory Sherwood (24 Aug 2012)

Vann, that would be me. I found that Pedder linked to my thread over on WN, and was really intrigued by that page. If you pbject to my copying it and using it there, I'll remove it straightaway.

Since this is my first post here, I'll drop a bit of info by way of introduction;
I'm a handtool user, collector and woodworker in Kansas City, Missouri, USA. I also own the rusthunter website , which is a new site which I hope to use to assist me in developing my tool collecting habit. I am also the Treasurer of the Kansas City Woodworkers Guild, which has a membership of over 400 woodworkers from the Kansas City area.

Hi.

.


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## Vann (24 Aug 2012)

Gregory Sherwood":3em3k884 said:


> Vann, that would be me. I found that Pedder linked to my thread over on WN, and was really intrigued by that page. If you pbject to my copying it and using it there, I'll remove it straightaway.


Hi Greg. Welcome.

I have no objection. It's not my intellectual property anyway - I copied it from another site myself . A coincidence that someone on here asked about Marples planes at the same time as someone on WN asked about the X4.

I should point out that it came from across the other "pond" as I'm across the Pacific from you in sunny New Zealand (where it's winter #-o )  .

Cheers, John


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## bugbear (24 Aug 2012)

AndyT":2rmne5gd said:


> Well, that's increased the number of people thinking "if I spot one of those on eBay in among the ordinary no 4s I'll be the only one who knows what it is and will snaffle a bargain" beyond the maximum number!
> 
> Sorry BB if you've been searching for some time. ( I'm sure I have seen one on eBay, and spotted that funny wiggle on the lever cap, but didn't realise what it was!)



A 2 page rave review/artivle in F&C queered the pitch long ago.  

BugBear


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## Tom K (24 Aug 2012)

:mrgreen: Half expecting Jimi to turn up a pair at tomorrows bootfair!


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## jimi43 (24 Aug 2012)

Tom K":mxpiedfn said:


> :mrgreen: Half expecting Jimi to turn up a pair at tomorrows bootfair!



No chance of that Tom...I'm off to visit my niece in Newmarket this weekend...

Might be a bootfair up that way though!!  

Jim


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## Gregory Sherwood (24 Aug 2012)

Thanks Vann. 

BugBear, any chance you have a copy of that 2 page F&C article? Or know where I could locate one? Part of my galootism is that I am compelled to buy items that I've never seen before, then I must school myself on it to the Nth degree.


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## Gregory Sherwood (24 Aug 2012)

BB, I received your PM, but apparently the fact that I am new here precludes my ability to use PM's until I am a member for a longer period of time.
Take your time, I'm in no hurry and appreciate your willingness to assist. If you (or anyone) could tell me what publication 'F&C' is, I'd search myself.


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## Harbo (24 Aug 2012)

Furniture & Cabinet Maker (UK mag)

Rod


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## Lexusman (5 Feb 2017)

Marples old planes from the 1930 s to 60 s .are very good , some are a lot thicker bases than others and quite good looking in red paint, earlier ones i think were black, but red planes sometimes have a black frog or red and the blades are a bit harder than stanley and i touch thicker of the same age i think . Marples and sorby shared the same moulds and basically identical but a bit less common .they are all much of a much to use best british planes list my opinion. 1 clifton . 2. Edward preston because of there finish .,,3 w s plane i think is an earlier name for woden brand,,, woden Marples clifton record and stanley .pre 1978 ,are very very similar that you wouldnt be bothered .early footprint planes are decent , rapiers planes better than acorn which is a cheap stanley .there are quite a few others but were never long running makers like the other , sedgeley whitmore , salmon ,rolson ,there is a brand after the war called a ,dronfiled , which is where the marples family lived during the war .apert from that i know nothing


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## g7g7g7g7 (5 Feb 2017)

My first bailey pattern plane was a U.S. make, Millers Falls and I've gotten a kind of attached to them. Unfortunately there isn't many in the U.K. and prices reflect that, every now and again you can get a decent find on ebay but my ideal of having a matching set of planes has been put on hold until I've got spare cash for such vanity and flamboyance.

There has to be a lot of quality U.S. toolmakers I'm unaware of as a relative novice that have slipped past my notice.


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## D_W (6 Feb 2017)

g7g7g7g7":3hxtu63x said:


> My first bailey pattern plane was a U.S. make, Millers Falls and I've gotten a kind of attached to them. Unfortunately there isn't many in the U.K. and prices reflect that, every now and again you can get a decent find on ebay but my ideal of having a matching set of planes has been put on hold until I've got spare cash for such vanity and flamboyance.
> 
> There has to be a lot of quality U.S. toolmakers I'm unaware of as a relative novice that have slipped past my notice.



stanley
sargent
hahn
siegley
millers falls
union
gage

there is a ton of second rate makes


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## whiskywill (6 Feb 2017)

I have a red painted Stanley no. 4 with unstained beech(?) handle and knob. Does anybody know when they were made and where do they come on the quality scale?


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## D_W (6 Feb 2017)

What's the origin? UK, US? They are late and generally low quality, but what they generally are doesn't mean much if you get one that works really well. 

I've got a late type 20 stanley that is probably still my favorite smoother. They are generally panned here in the states, and the irons were poor (soft) in them, but that is easy enough to fix. It just adjusts smoother and works a little easier than any other 4 I have or have had.

The maroon 4s that I've seen here have a frog that doesn't extend all of the way to the casting, and I don't really favor that particular situation too much.


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## whiskywill (6 Feb 2017)

I have just found this and I think it answers my question. 



Somebody has swapped the iron, chipbreaker and cap for a Stanley.


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## ED65 (6 Feb 2017)

I was going to say it sounded like you might have a Frenkenplane whiskywill. As a result it's hard to say what you could have there in terms of performance, but assuming you have the original Acorn frog and body it's probably between adequate (call it handyman level) and quite good. Regardless of which it is there's a good chance you can fettle it into a very respectable user if that's what you fancy.

I recently fettled an Acorn and it can now take much finer shavings than it would have been capable of originally, and while it was on my bench I reached for it often when finish planing.


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## Vann (6 Feb 2017)

whiskywill":rk5h2j0d said:


> I have just found this and I think it answers my question.
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody has swapped the iron, chipbreaker and cap for a Stanley.


Acorn was JA Chapman's brand of iron planes, before Stanley bought them out in 1936 (to form Stanley UK). Their planes were maroon. They were Bailey copies (wasn't everybody's), but the frogs were an older design (what Patrick lists as the 2nd design in Blood & Gore) with the cantilevered bottom end. 

Stanley continued using the Acorn brand name, with planes marked "Acorn by Stanley" on a waterslide transfer. Stanley cheapened them down to be without frog adjuster and with one piece lateral lever. These were red (or is that orange). This was their budget range, until they changed to the Stanley "Handiman" range.

The plane in the picture dates to this budget range. It's possible that the irons were marked Stanley, as they came out of the Stanley UK factory. So it may be 100% original. Mine came without irons, so I don't know.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Vann (6 Feb 2017)

D_W":26l0okln said:


> ...I've got a late type 20 stanley that is probably still my favorite smoother...


DW, I don't believe that Stanley UK made 20 "types" - probably not more than 8 - 10, and they've never been documented.

So I assume you're talking about American Stanleys from Canada or the USA - but as you're on a British forum here, you should be more specific. Thanks.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Caruso (6 Feb 2017)

Anchor was made by Eskilstuna jernmanufaktur AB later also called Jernbolaget. They were manufacturing a lot of different things made of steel or iron such as cutlery, sissors, hinges, padlocks, knives, skates, tools and house hold scales.

Actually the name Anchor is still used by a lock manufacturer situated on the same premises. http://www.anchorlas.com/About-us/


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## Downwindtracker2 (8 Feb 2017)

I have two #6 planes from about 1952ish, a rosewood and blue Record and a beech and green Anchor. The Record is the better made plane.


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## D_W (11 Feb 2017)

Vann":lpzppfjg said:


> D_W":lpzppfjg said:
> 
> 
> > ...I've got a late type 20 stanley that is probably still my favorite smoother...
> ...



American type 20, yes. I don't know the british equivalent.


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