# veritas honing guide sucks



## tombo (25 Mar 2005)

Not knowing any better I have been struggling to get my chisels set in the guide perfectly straight, I thought that there was little i could do other than use a square to set it up. However i just got the DC disk number one on plane sharpening, he uses and eclipse guide and that looks so much better as it clamps from both sides so its inherently straight. Are there any tricks to using the veritas guide or should i binn it and get myself an eclipse one?

tom


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## Anonymous (25 Mar 2005)

hmm, I generally just butt the iron or chisel against the left hand edge - seems to work for me, for square honing anyway.

You could always make some jigs to go with it - I've considered them for skew irons, and for narrower chisels.

I'm sure Rob will be along to answer such a post title!

As far as I'm aware, there's no such thing as the perfect honing guide (other than experience!) - I understand the eclipse suffers from having a narrow roller, so you're prone to rocking while honing, which isn't a good thing. (don't have an eclipse, so could be wrong here). It strikes me that the market is open for an improved guide, but you'll never be able to please everyone.


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## mudman (25 Mar 2005)

I've got the Veritas and I didn't like it at first. Found you couldn't keep the chisel or plane blade straight. However, what I think now is that I was screwing the clamping screw down to hard. Combined with the little rubber bit (which handily hides the guidelines :? ), you don't need too much force to hold it firmly. I generally tighten a bit, square it up with an engineer's square and then nip it up and then re-check. Seems to work okay for me now.
I do also have the Eclipse and the Axminster deluxe guide and I like all of them. For a while I went to using the Axminster with the Veritas angle finder but seem to have gone back to the Veritas one again.


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## Midnight (25 Mar 2005)

I've been using mine for both chisel and plane blades without cause for complain for over 3 years... the only need I have for my eclipse guide is to hold my 112 blade cos it winna fit in the veritas...


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## Alf (26 Mar 2005)

Espedair Street":1y0nk854 said:


> As far as I'm aware, there's no such thing as the perfect honing guide


Too true. Generally you need at least two of them, to cover all the various blades satisfactorily. BB's your man on honing guides; he has virtually one of every model ever made as far as I can tell. :roll:

Some ideas on making setting the blade straight easier here. Also, at some point, an improved guide is due to come out I believe, which I _think_ is supposed to solve the problem. Rob's currently away, so no swift response from him on this one. I have an Eclipse copy, and while the wheel _is_ narrow, it has advantages when you want a cambered iron. Personally I have no trouble with it when I want a straight edge though; simply apply the pressure as close to the bevel as possible and the wheel's doing virtually nothing except keeping the angle constant. I've never used the Veritas one, but generally it seems, despite this registration issue, people do tend to like it. And not all blade sides are parallel, at which point the Eclipse will struggle.

Of course the solution to all these issues is to hone freehand... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Frank D. (26 Mar 2005)

Hi tom,
Don't give up on the Veritas jig, I started by using both an Eclipse and the Veritas, now I use almost exclusively the veritas. Do you have the veritas angle finder? If so, rock the blade sideways (back and forth) so it registers well (all the way in). Then you tighten the jig gradually, and just before it's tight, rock the jig a little so the wheel of the sharpening jig is well-seated on the platform of the angle finder. Then you give a final tightening to the knob on top. The key to getting a square blade is to have both the blade and the jig well-seated on the platform when you tighten the blade for the last half turn or so. I got better results without the rubber thingy on the platform of the honing guide. For narrow chisels it's a bit harder but I just take a few swipes on the first stone, look at the scratch pattern, and adjust the blade without unscrewing the jig (a little nudge and it's usually square after that). This can take a little practice but now I'm like Mike, I only use my eclipse for my scraper plane blades. 
HTH,
Frank


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (26 Mar 2005)

As Alf has noted, there is a new Veritas guide in the wings. It promises to be special (and it will fix the problem). In the meantime the existing model can be made to work very well. Alf posted a picture of a modification I made. This consists of an internal fence, and is great for plane blades and wider chisels, but I do end up using the jig in the link below for narrower chisels.

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=1228

This jig provides a side fence to set the blade square as well as a depth gauge for setting the desired angle. This one sets 25 and 30 degrees.

What is great about the Veritas guide is the in-built adjustment for a microbevel.

Frank's suggestion for using it without the rubber mat is one I endorse. I removed mine a long time ago. I also make sure the blade is really tight, even going so far as to use pliers (carefully!).

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Martin Brown (26 Mar 2005)

This is our best selling Veritas item and I really struggle to remember that it didn't do what we say it will. The posts here seem to have answered most of the issues raised but if not we would be delighted to check the jig over to check nothing is wrong.

Alf is right a new one is on the way. It will have to work hard to beat the original.

Martin

PS PM if you want us to check it.


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## tombo (27 Mar 2005)

Thanks all for your interest...

Martin I'm sure it is working to spec i appreciate the offer.

It just seems daft to me when the sole purpose of this jig is super precise angles in one direction but its hit or miss in the other. Narrow chisels are the most difficult for sure.

Derek I like your jig idea I think i will have a go at making one. 

Tom


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## Martin Brown (27 Mar 2005)

Thanks.

Have you trimmed the rubber back a little at the edges to show enough line at both ends? This gives you a top and tail reference for straightness.

I understand about narrow chisels being the hardest, frankly just about everyone complains about how hard they are to sharpen with any system.

Martin


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## Chris Knight (27 Mar 2005)

Tom,

I felt much as you do when I first got this jig. But as others have said, it really is a question of practice. As Alf indicates, it is mostly in the pressure of your fingers and that has a significant impact even with the eclipse type guide (partly because it has a narrow wheel of course).

I found I really started to like it when I thought of less as "machine" and more as a simple aid to help me keep the right honing angle - again as noted by Alf. 

It also has a benefit inasmuch you can sharpen some skew blades with it that an Eclipse type jig can't handle.


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## Alf (27 Mar 2005)

Martin Brown":f6t9a87x said:


> I understand about narrow chisels being the hardest, frankly just about everyone complains about how hard they are to sharpen with any system.


Not so easy freehand either... As far as I'm aware the only guide that's really addressed the problem of narrow chisels is the Richard Kell one; useless for wider blades of course. ](*,) 



Martin Brown":f6t9a87x said:


> Alf is right a new one is on the way. It will have to work hard to beat the original.


Rob seems to get excited and mysterious in equal parts every time he mentions it. So nothing new there then... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (29 Mar 2005)

> BB's your man on honing guides; he has virtually one of every model ever made as far as I can tell.



Still lookin' for a cheap Stanley #200...



> And not all blade sides are parallel, at which point the Eclipse will struggle.



Notably, the blades in more recent Veritas tools. I think it's a cunning ploy to give the Veritas Jig "an edge" over the Eclipse.

In general you want a narrow roller for wide blades (where the blade provide it's own stability) and a wide roller for narrow blades. As soon as you have 2 surfaces trying to "register" on the stone, they must be perfectly aligned or you're in trouble.

I find it much easier to let wide blades (commonly 2" plane blades) register themselves on the stone than it is to get them into any jig perfectly.

BugBear


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## Rob Lee (29 Mar 2005)

bugbear":2kf1qmws said:


> (snip)
> 
> Notably, the blades in more recent Veritas tools. I think it's a cunning ploy to give the Veritas Jig "an edge" over the Eclipse.
> 
> ...



Now Paul - you know we wouldn't do that on purpose... :roll: :lol: 

In fact - we had to taper some blade sides so we could maximize width within the body, and still allow the blade to be skewed without contacting the sidewalls... (the skewing being necessary to compensate for out-of-square sharpening)...sort of a catch-22

At low bed angles - the skew required to compensate for an out-of-square blade is significant...

Your points about wheel widths and blade widths are good ones though - the guide is meant only to provide repeatable angles...it's a guide - not a fixture...

I've always squared by eye - as the fingertip pressure applied at the blade tip tends to ensure that existing geometry is maintained. 

The new guide (we get first castings this week!) will "address" virtually all points discussed here...

It's heavier, and more complex (in design) - but is much more "fixture-like".

The challenge with any honing device design is to design one to cover a wide range of blade sizes and shapes, while not relying on the blades themselves to have any particular tolerances (parallel sides, parallel surfaces etc.). Our new one extends the envelope quite a bit - and will use only the back face (non-bevel side) and the cutting edge for registration...

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Chris Knight (29 Mar 2005)

Rob Lee":18q8vwy1 said:


> and will use only the back face (non-bevel side) and the cutting edge for registration...



Rob,

If I have understood this properly, it's what I have been waiting for - in fact I have a half-built one I designed myself. Yours may just pip me to the post! Actually, considering my rate of progress, it is pretty well bound to


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## Anonymous (6 Apr 2005)

tombo":2d2m5pjj said:


> Not knowing any better I have been struggling to get my chisels set in the guide perfectly straight, I thought that there was little i could do other than use a square to set it up. However i just got the DC disk number one on plane sharpening, he uses and eclipse guide and that looks so much better as it clamps from both sides so its inherently straight. Are there any tricks to using the veritas guide or should i binn it and get myself an eclipse one?
> 
> tom



Tom,

One of the Richard Kell honing guides is probably the answer for you. He has 2 different honing guides for sharpening chisels. One handles chisels up to one inch; and one is for chisels over one inch. 

Alf said_Not so easy freehand either... As far as I'm aware the only guide that's really addressed the problem of narrow chisels is the Richard Kell one; useless for wider blades of course_ I have to disagree with this. As the wider version will handle the larger chisels, and even small plane blades. In addition to this, he also does a much larger jig for handling larger plane blades and the skew plane iron from the LN 140. I suggest you take a look at his website that has links to various websites, some who have pictures of these. www.richardkell.co.uk 

These are side clamping devices, so they completely eliminate the problem of skewing the blade. Also they have wide rollers which prevent rocking.

I recommend any of them wholeheartedly. The quality is incredible!

Lance


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## Philly (6 Apr 2005)

Lance
Thanks for the heads up-and welcome to the forum!!
Cheers
Philly


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## Newbie_Neil (6 Apr 2005)

Hi Lance

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (6 Apr 2005)

Welcome to the forum, Lance.



Lance":33kjdjik said:


> Alf said _Not so easy freehand either... As far as I'm aware the only guide that's really addressed the problem of narrow chisels is the Richard Kell one; useless for wider blades of course_ I have to disagree with this.


But it _is_ useless for wider blades; you can't physically get them into it. You need to buy additional jigs for wider blades, as you say. So I believe actually we agree, apart from maybe a willingness or not to spend money on addition honing guides... :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Rob Lee (6 Apr 2005)

Alf":1k2qetej said:


> Hmm, is Derek getting insider info? :-k Or isn't this the UK Workshop exclusive I hoped it was...? :? Anyway, I'll just go and divide this thread and give this half a better title so there's no excuse...
> 
> Cheers, Alf
> 
> P.S. One wouldn't presume to have connections :-#



So far - that image has only appeared twice... once here today - and once on April fools day - where it was virtually unnoticed (elsewhere)... Now that was a subtle joke... 8) 

Just call me a sieve..... I leak all over... :lol: :lol: 

I do send some stuff down to Derek too.... have to make sure it all works inverted :shock: :lol: 

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Alf (6 Apr 2005)

There I am making a nice new thread appear and you post in this one... ](*,) Right, a simple one word post in the new thread and I can copy this over and edit it in under your name, and then come back and delete this. That should work. I hope.

Cheers, Alf

arrgh, it's all too complicated. The other thread's over here, peeps. You work it out. :roll:


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## Anonymous (7 Apr 2005)

First, thanks for the warm welcome from everyone! I am looking forward to exchanging ideas and opinions!

But it _is_ useless for wider blades; you can't physically get them into it. You need to buy additional jigs for wider blades, as you say. So I believe actually we agree, apart from maybe a willingness or not to spend money on addition honing guides... :wink:

Personally, I wouldn't way the Richard Kell honing guide is useless for wider blades - I haven't found another one that will handle chisels from as thin as 1/8 inch to as wide as 2 5/8"! Perhaps my original post was misleading, as I re-read it, it didn't sound clear the wider width guide which I have handles chisels over one inch, as well as, under one inch.

My friend had the orginal standard model, but I got the new wider width model a few months ago. I haven't tried it myself, but the paperwork that came with it said that this guide is unique in that it also is good for short chisles, like Japanese chisels. I tend to be frugal with my tool purchases (my wife likes that!), so I do agree with you Alf, there is no need to spend money needlessly. I certainly think my wider width guide suits my needs.

Lance


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## bugbear (7 Apr 2005)

The wide Kell guide still has the wheels outside the blade, which means on a 2 5/8 blade you need a freakishly wide (and expensive) set of stones. Not a good idea IMHO.

http://www.richardkell.co.uk/honing.htm

BugBear


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## ydb1md (21 May 2005)

If the catalogs are mailed on May 23rd, when do they usually show up?

If the catalogs are mailed on the 23rd, are the honing guides available on the website on the 23rd too? :?:


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## Alf (21 May 2005)

The last news I had was "approximately May 24". Someone getting a bit impatient, eh? :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (21 May 2005)

You may want to go here: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=66556

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (21 May 2005)

Derek, you shame me. I have one sitting on the workbench and I've not put a blade anywhere near it yet.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (21 May 2005)

Alf,

Slacking again?? Look, never mind the review, when can I get one and from whom? :lol:


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## Waka (22 May 2005)

Alf

I'm with Cris on this, where be they too


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## Alf (22 May 2005)

_Never mind_ the review?! :shock: You want one without reading the review?! Okay, I'm going to sulk now... [-( 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (22 May 2005)

Mea Culpa - please, pretty please, let us have a review (on knees begging).


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## Anonymous (22 May 2005)

tombo":37488uv3 said:


> Not knowing any better I have been struggling to get my chisels set in the guide perfectly straight, I thought that there was little i could do other than use a square to set it up. However i just got the DC disk number one on plane sharpening, he uses and eclipse guide and that looks so much better as it clamps from both sides so its inherently straight. Are there any tricks to using the veritas guide or should i binn it and get myself an eclipse one?
> 
> tom



Tom

I have never seen the veritas and so cannot comment on it. I use an eclipse that cost £11 and has worked on all of my chisels and plane irons without problem since I bought it.


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## Alf (22 May 2005)

waterhead37":1i87ljjh said:


> Mea Culpa - please, pretty please, let us have a review (on knees begging).


Oh, all right then. :roll: :lol: Just don't expect too much; I'm very much in the borderlands where any knowledge I have meets the vast plains of all the things I'm a total ignoramus about... The Scrub review should hit the board first, fwiw.

Cheers, Alf


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## ydb1md (22 May 2005)

How does one get to be a reviewer of forthcoming tools? 

(looking around for Rob Lee . . . )


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## Alf (22 May 2005)

ydb1md":39p39fkn said:


> How does one get to be a reviewer of forthcoming tools?


Being rude to BriMarc seemed to work for me, but I think that was just a fluke... Also being totally insane is more beneficial than you might imagine. :roll:

Cheers, Alf


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (23 May 2005)

> How does one get to be a reviewer of forthcoming tools?



Having exceptionally high intellect, great charm, tremendous humour, and good looks seems to work for me  

It was either that, or the ability to be thick skinned and preparedness to say what you think (being impulsive helps here at lot!)  

So far, whatever I have reviewed has been offered to me. I have never solicited anything. On the other hand I understand that LV may respond positively if you offer your services in this regard. What is important is the ability to think critically and communicate well.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## ydb1md (24 May 2005)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> You may want to go here: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=66556
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



I was on the Lee Valley website today and ordered one. It's not officially online yet. If you want to order it, you can call customer service or go to the lee valley site, go to the page for the old honing guide, throw this address in your browser 

javascript:OpenProdInfo('05M0901','0','33001','1,43072,43078','buy','','2');

and hit the return key 

If the price comes up as $48.50, you know you're on the right track.


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## Rob Lee (24 May 2005)

ydb1md":1c95ube0 said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > You may want to go here: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=66556
> ...



.... or you could just wait 'til tomorrow at 2:00 pm when we run the upload, and you'd have a bunch more things to look at... :shock: 8) 

Will take a few more days to get 'em all done though....  

Cheers - 

Rob


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## ydb1md (24 May 2005)

> .... or you could just wait 'til tomorrow at 2:00 pm when we run the upload, and you'd have a bunch more things to look at... :shock: 8)
> 
> Will take a few more days to get 'em all done though....



I didn't get to see Star Wars Episode VI on opening day because I had to be responsible and go to work.  So . . . I figured I'd at least try to be at the front of the line for the new honing guides.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (25 May 2005)

Just in case you are interested in the second chapter of my impressions of the new LV Honing Guide, go here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/hand ... read=66677

I'm sure Alf is going to come up with the definitive review soon. 

Regards frpm Perth

Derek


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## Alf (25 May 2005)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I'm sure Alf is going to come up with the definitive review soon.


Your faith is touching, Derek, but misplaced...  

But more importantly, I see the long-awaited Machine Screw Gauge has finally hit the website... Phew. Life can begin again. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (25 May 2005)

Alf":ebi2l1je said:


> But more importantly, I see the long-awaited Machine Screw Gauge has finally hit the website... Phew. Life can begin again. :wink:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Ah yes, I've been waiting for that one...actually I do have that one. Except when I bought mine from a local hardware store it was quite a bit less.

As someone who drills and taps a lot of holes, it isn't the part with the holes I cared about, it was the tap information. But it isn't complete, really. And you need both. That's a bit costly.

I have a (more) complete pdf showing both imperial/metric, as well as pilot hole/ clearance hole/ countersink sizes for screws should anyone be interested.


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