# Combination, Plough/Plow, Rebate Planes



## Tierney (21 Nov 2009)

For some reason (i.e. the slope), I'm thinking of buying a combination, plough or rebate plane. I'm a bit confused and was wondering if a combination plane did the job of both a plough and rebate plane, or was there much merit in having separate tools. I have my eye on an LN skew mouth rebate plane anyway, so would it be better buying a plough plane in addition to that.

I have seen some Stanley (No. 50s) and Record combination planes for sale and was wondering if there was anything I should know before buying one.

Although I'm happy to pay for the LN, the combination or plough plane is just something to fiddle around with, so didn't want to spend say any more than £50.

All responses appreciated.

DT


----------



## Alf (21 Nov 2009)

Tierney":3v83y0eb said:


> I have my eye on an LN skew mouth rebate plane...


The LN skew block? Or did you mean the LV skew rebate? (Curse them for having such similar initials) 'Cos for proper rebate work you'll really want something with a depth stop like the latter, or you'll go nuts. Not to mention the difficulty in holding a skew block in deeper rebates.

And yes, a combination plane will both plough and rebate. And dado, T&G, mould, etc, depending on the model. Mind you a plough can rebate too, see? But for maximum cross-grain enjoyment, a skew blade is nice to have, which in combis limits one rather to the Stanley #46, and they ain't cheap. So despite my abiding love of the combination plane, I'd have to opt for skew rebate and separate plough for most efficient and pleasant set up. But of course you could probably get a light combination plane within your budget and have the ploughing with the added advantage of the combination features like beading and T&G. Then it's just a long and steep descent until you start looking wistfully at Howkins planes on da Bay.... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## bodgermatic (21 Nov 2009)

I succumbed to the lure of the boat anchor, last week a Record 050 was handed me by the long suffering postman. Not had a chance to play with it yet (it's notionally my Christmas present).


----------



## Saint Simon (21 Nov 2009)

I bought the LV skew rebate some months ago and it performs well both with and across the grain. Having previously failed with earlier rebate planes I am really pleased with it, especially the way it worked straight from the box. More recently, after taking guidance from this site, I bought a Stanley 55 for making mouldings. A few weeks on I am getting to know and love it, with the help of the Cornish Workshop website, and have successfully produced some small quantities of mouldings for cabinet work. However, I am not sure that I would choose to use it for simple ploughing. I have a Veritas small plough plane that I use for fitting drawer bottoms and the like which is very quick to set up and a doddle to use. 
I think that the problem for you will be deciding what you most need the plane to do and what you can get for your money.


----------



## xy mosian (21 Nov 2009)

bodgermatic":xhpnqoyt said:


> I succumbed to the lure of the boat anchor, last week a Record 050 was handed me by the long suffering postman. Not had a chance to play with it yet (it's notionally my Christmas present).



I bought a Record 050 (cobination) when it was new at £8-60. Unfortunately I didn't get on with it at all and that rather put me off. Last week I decided to give it another go. What a delight! A 4mm groove 6mm deep in the centre of a 12mm edge in some pine or other. Not once but twice over a total of about 6ft. The finish was much better than I could have managed with a router, and easier to set up, quieter etc..

Now in words similar to Mark Twain, " I am amazed how much it has improved over the last 30 odd years"  


I had similar brilliant results from a Stanley #78 (rebate) which I had been given a couple of months ago by the original buyer, who bought it in the fifties. It had not even been sharpened.

xy


----------



## wizer (21 Nov 2009)

With hand planes, when ploughing grooves (dadoes) cross grain, divisions of a jewelery box for example, how would you reference an edge? By using a clamped straight edge or the integral 'fence'?


----------



## xy mosian (21 Nov 2009)

Wizer,

Personally I think the further I am working from an attached, outrigger fence, the more likely I am to make a hash of keeping it tight to the workpiece. This is probably related to the length of the fence in ratio to the distance I am working at. For that reason I would use a locally clamped straight edge.

BTW is it still on for later this week? If so all the best mate .

xy


----------



## wizer (21 Nov 2009)

xy mosian":luz9hsss said:


> BTW is it still on for later this week? If so all the best mate .



Yep :-$ :wink:


----------



## Tierney (21 Nov 2009)

After reading the replies and links (thanks), I'm leaning towards the Stanley 55 or Record 405 with the greater number of cutters, although the blood and gore sight slates the Stanley 55. Oh well some searching of eBay and saving ahead of me.

Alf,

Some great links thanks, I meant the LN Skew Block plane; but, may reconsider the LV now.

Cheers,

DT


----------



## Saint Simon (21 Nov 2009)

When I was asking about combination planes Paul Chapman got to the heart of the issue by pointing out that only the Stanley 55 with its adjustable runner can produce asymmetric profiles,eg roman and reverse ogees. That decided it for me.


----------



## Paul Chapman (21 Nov 2009)

There are significant differences between the Record #405/Stanley #45 Multiplanes and the Stanley #55 Universal plane.

Here's a Stanley #45







and here's a Stanley #55






The main difference is that the Stanley #55 has a skate which can move up and down as well as in and out. It has this so that it can use a wider range of cutters, particularly ones that are asymetric. Here's a picture showing an asymetric cutter and the moveable skate adjusted accordingly 






You will see that there is also a short central skate that can also move up and down and provide further bearing on the wood.

While this feature gives the #55 a lot more versatility than the #45/405 it does make it more of a fiddle to set up. These are the cutters that come with the #55 (if you find one that is complete)











For straight forward grooving and beading, the #45/405 are probably a lot quicker and easier to use because they are easier to set up but, of course, they are more limited. What would be best would depend on what sort of work you want to do.

For rebating, a proper rebate plane would be best IMHO and if you were to try out a Veritas skew rebate nothing else would do :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Alf (22 Nov 2009)

wizer":1sdyg6h6 said:


> With hand planes, when ploughing grooves (dadoes) cross grain, divisions of a jewelery box for example, how would you reference an edge? By using a clamped straight edge or the integral 'fence'?


Wizer, the straight edge every time. 

Ah, the #55. You will need a) Patience, and b) Luck. It's a plane I always wanted, and then acquired one, all shiny and like new. And it was shiny and like new because this particular example was unuseable. Just so as you know what you might like to watch out for if you can see it before you buy it, have some old blog entries:
Rocking Chair
Black Spot
Misunderstood (A more positive post)
Boat Anchor
Unfortunately, before I could get back to it, I hit a period of no workshop time, so it awaits me still with goodness knows what other obstacles to put in my path. But when it worked, it worked very well.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Paul Chapman (22 Nov 2009)

Good post, Alf :wink: With the #55, more than any other plane, it's advisable to try before you buy.........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## wizer (22 Nov 2009)

Thanks for that Al. I'm tempted by a LV Skew Rabbet actually. I've never had much luck with routers and it _looks _easier with the LV SR.


----------



## Modernist (22 Nov 2009)

wizer":2fr82q8m said:


> Thanks for that Al. I'm tempted by a LV Skew Rabbet actually. I've never had much luck with routers and it _looks _easier with the LV SR.



The LV Skew rabbet is a great plane but still not perfect. As well as my moans about A2 on the other side (now cured with a 35 deg bevel) I think the blade adjusting tab washer, for want of a better term, needs re-designing so that it does not fall out of register with the blade whilst adjusting. Having said that it still one of the best planes of all time and it is such a pleasure to use I have managed to put the router out of business much more than I thought. I just love to see shavings singing out of the skew mouth in a spiral (all right helix then :roll: ) without binding up. The general quality of manufacture is great. I'm still not wholly convinved about LV handle angle but I suppose that's personal.


----------



## Alf (22 Nov 2009)

Modernist":2c2wckf4 said:


> I'm still not wholly convinved about LV handle angle but I suppose that's personal.



It's what they tell me. A lot. :lol: As for A2, obviously I'll have to get back on my hobby horse about that - didn't realise the skew rebates weren't offered with O1. Tsk.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## mahking51 (22 Nov 2009)

Alf


> Then it's just a long and steep descent until you start looking wistfully at Howkins planes on da Bay....



Ah, the Howkins! Its helped me with my alphabet: A (No49), B, C....................D.....
:lol: 
Martin


----------



## wizer (22 Nov 2009)

hrm boredom had me looking into these planes earlier. I can't personally see a use for the LV Rabbet, it's something that it pretty easy with a router table (god forbid). I do see a use for making grooves with a hand plane but they all seem to suck at going cross grain and are no good for stopped grooves. Is that right?


----------



## Anonymous (22 Nov 2009)

wizer":2vudb6br said:


> hrm boredom had me looking into these planes earlier. I can't personally see a use for the LV Rabbet, it's something that it pretty easy with a router table (god forbid). I do see a use for making grooves with a hand plane but they all seem to suck at going cross grain and are no good for stopped grooves. Is that right?



Wizer, try one!

Love mine

I used the LV plough on Classic Hand Tools' stand yesterday - mine arrives with 5 blades Wednesday  (sold out by midday Wednesday  ) 
Thanks for the great discount Mike, nice chatting again.

Of course, the Record #50 stays, but I think that'll be used for beading rather than trenches as I much prefer the LV


----------



## wizer (22 Nov 2009)

Yes I will. Hopefully someone will bring one to the YOKB


----------



## xy mosian (22 Nov 2009)

Wizer, just to expand on my earlier reply, about cutting cross grain grooves with a plough plane. I have never been able to get the spurs to work as well as they apparently should  . That being the case I usually scribe the edges of the groove, cutting gauge, knife etc., before using the plane. Sometimes going as far as cutting the sides of the groove with a back saw to depth, or very close. Of course for a short groove by that time a chisel can take out the rest.

xy


----------



## Vann (23 Nov 2009)

Alf":3czoawkf said:


> The LN skew block? Or did you mean the LV skew rebate? (Curse them for having such similar initials)


Now you guys just make it hard for yourselves. It's Veritas (the brand), not Lee Valley (the company). Or would you refer to that English plane maker as Clico (the company), instead of Clifton (the brand). 

I suppose "Veritas" taks a lot more typing than "LV", but it also causes confusion sometimes. You could just refer to them as the big "V"  

Anyway, to keep on topic - I've just won a Record 043 (with just one iron) and an earlyish Stanley 50 (full set of irons), but haven't tried either yet. Just derusted the rods on both. Actually, SWMBO's complaining a lot that I haven't used any of my tools yet.....  

Cheers, the big Vann


----------



## dannykaye (23 Nov 2009)

The 43 is a beautiful toy and the 50 is pretty good 

the 405 is fair but I agree with a lot of people that the 55 is a disaster

Danny


----------



## Alf (23 Nov 2009)

Vann":5q6j2xjw said:


> You could just refer to them as the big "V"


Not sure I could bear to give Rob the satisfaction. :lol: 

Is it a US #50, Vann? 'Cos you did well if you got all the parts (sez she who's own example hasn't  ) As for the #043, it's an absolute gem of a plane and easily my favourite. Trouble is it's a difficult sell to folks, 'cos on paper it seems so limited - hand 'em one at a bench with some wood to groove and I reckon 9 out of 10 folks would go away needing to own one as a matter of urgency. That's plan A for world domination, btw. Don't tell anyone; I'm still stockpiling the 043s. :-$ :wink:

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Vann (23 Nov 2009)

Alf":p7zv2ffz said:


> Is it a US #50, Vann? 'Cos you did well if you got all the parts (sez she who's own example hasn't  )


 Yes it's a USA model, 1914-35 era (as best as I can determine from Patrick's B&G). Pre-adjuster (i.e. no nicks in the irons). No chip deflector nor narrow blade holder (I think those features might be post-1935). The nicker on the main skate is missing and the thread is stripped, but the other is present and in good order. One depth stop and associated thumbscrew are missing.


Alf":p7zv2ffz said:


> As for the #043, it's an absolute gem of a plane and easily my favourite.


Yes I can tell :lol: . I had a look at your website section on ploughs (and boat anchors) and the 043 is well covered. Many thanks, your articles are very helpful. It's a shame you haven't covered the #50/050 quite as well. 

And a shame bugbear's link is now dead. Maybe he could post the info somewhere else (like in the reviews section on this site, or on your site)

Are you listening bugbear.......

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## bugbear (24 Nov 2009)

Vann":c15ueahu said:


> And a shame bugbear's link is now dead. Maybe he could post the info somewhere else (like in the reviews section on this site, or on your site)
> 
> Are you listening bugbear.......
> 
> Cheers, Vann.



For the moment, my site is half alive and half well on the wayback machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/200604252138 ... /plybench/

In the longer term I keep meaning to get around to finding a new host, and re-listing it.

It was ALWAY created on my own PC, and then uploaded - I'm far too old a computer hand to lose data. Having too many copies is my more usual problem.

Oh - and, yeah, the #043 is lovely.

BugBear


----------



## Alf (24 Nov 2009)

Vann":ffuabju6 said:


> And a shame bugbear's link is now dead


Aargh! *Shuffles off to edit the page. Again.* ETA: Any chance at all of being able to host the pdf of the lever cap drawing, BB?



Vann":ffuabju6 said:


> Alf":ffuabju6 said:
> 
> 
> > As for the #043, it's an absolute gem of a plane and easily my favourite.
> ...


You can? Darn it, I thought I was concealing it so well... :lol: The 50/050 was next on the list to do, but events overtook me and it hasn't happened. Yet. There's some updates to the existing pages that are waiting in the queue too; truly a web site is never finished.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Racers (24 Nov 2009)

Hi,

I have a couple of 43s (and a couple of 40s) last time I used them was to hog off some wood before using a scratch stock to form some arcatrave for a victorian house. Saved hours compaired to using the scratch stock alone.

Pete


----------



## Vann (25 Nov 2009)

bugbear":2ao9d4h2 said:


> For the moment, my site is half alive and half well on the wayback machine.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/200604252138 ... /plybench/


Thanks for the link BB.

Cheers, Vann.


----------

