# Lost for words...



## condeesteso (14 May 2011)

First, here's a tale.
Some years ago I was driving through south London, wife beside me, 2 daughters in back. We approached one of the long hills near Crystal Palace, and I saw a guy on a bike cycling up-hill very impressively. Without thinking (much) I said "Wow, he looks fit."
The reaction from the back of the car was immediate and electric - the daughters were beside themselves... near pain with laughter.
That was when I learned that 'fit' means something else now, and one man mustn't say that about another man. That was not always the case.
I realised I had just lost a word from my vocabulary.
Very long before that, there was another word I was fond of - 'gay'. I still believe the word gay captured a feeling, a state that no other word in our language quite does. Gay is kind of happy but light, bouncy, casual, bright... it is a word with a lot of colour and vibrance.
We lost that one years ago.

SO, recently I have been re-introducing 'lost' words in order to get the word count back up. If one gets nicked, then bring one back to replace it.
I am currently working on 'wireless' and 'lavatory'. Wireless is a great word... "Did you hear the interview with xyz on the wireless yesterday?" And if you ever looked inside one, it was excitingly wire-full.
I fear we are close to losing 'lavatory', which we would live to regret. It is elegant (as a word) and distinct in the English language. Toilet / toilette... I prefer the French. And as for 'bathroom' it simply avoids the subject.
So help me out. From now on, bog oak shall be known as 'lavatory oak'.

Any other words we all need to re-activate??


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## Rob Platt (14 May 2011)

pineapple seems to have a host of new meanings on here.
all the best
rob


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## Anonymous (14 May 2011)

I use the words ghastly and lavatory


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## condeesteso (14 May 2011)

Ghastly is a good one, I'll re-adopt. As for pineapple, I'd need to know more about it's current meaning, you will understand my caution. I know someone (called Ruby Quince... so no surprises) whose favourite word was / is 'undercarriage'.


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## DIY Stew (14 May 2011)

Brassiere and petticoat 2 words my daughters (aged 26 and 24) cringe at when I use them.

In the Fire Brigade we went on 'Wireless Watch' if there was a problem with the turn-out bells, if the wireless on the appliance failed we had to report this to wireless workshops who would send out an engineer to fix the 'radio'!! very confusing.

Stew


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## Hudson Carpentry (14 May 2011)

I think the post about pineapple was in reference to this forum changing many of swear words posted to the word pineapple instead.

Lavatory to me is a horrible word that describes a place of unclean sanitary, not a place for a clean toilet but a place where people relieve them selfs.


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## Hudson Carpentry (14 May 2011)

The word bad now means a good thing :s

The little un often says no when told to do something but still does it? maybe that now means the opposite.


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## chunkolini (14 May 2011)

Old words is good, Lavatory, perfectly useable. Splendid, another good word, Marvelous. Why is so much modern language so negative?

How about making up new words? I am on a one man crusade to get the word 'Disastrophe' in the OED, or what about 'Discombobulated' so much better than the F word followed by 'ed'.

Profanity? Britain has a long and illustrious history of use of profanity, these it is going to the dogs and being used by the lazy as a form of punctuation.

I am happy with the use of profanity as long as it used properly. A while back my son came home from school in a right strop. (not a sharpening implement) when asked what was wrong he said ''I had to tell somebody to 'F' off today'' I asked why, and he told me. I asked 'did you say it properly and did he do it'. When junior confirmed these facts I congratulated him. I heard him have the same conversation with Mum. There are times when these terms are relevant.

Years back Granny told him off for swearing the brat responded with '' My Dad says I can swear as long as it appropriate'' One Nil to junior. Granny used to be an English teacher, Grandpa spat his tea laughing and ran away.

Hopefully he will not be one of these pineapplewitted youths swearing every word on the bus and thinking it is bitching.

Chunko'.


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## Noel (14 May 2011)

condeesteso":3gyyb96b said:


> First, here's a tale.
> Some years ago I was driving through south London, wife beside me, 2 daughters in back. We approached one of the long hills near Crystal Palace, and I saw a guy on a bike cycling up-hill very impressively. Without thinking (much) I said "Wow, he looks fit."
> The reaction from the back of the car was immediate and electric - the daughters were beside themselves... near pain with laughter.
> That was when I learned that 'fit' means something else now, and one man mustn't say that about another man. That was not always the case.
> ...



Gay is back, just means something else now for the 3rd time, as in "you are so gay".


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## studders (14 May 2011)

Noel":sakapzha said:


> Gay is back, just means something else now for the 3rd time, as in "you are so gay".


And it is just possible that I may be responsible. :shock: 

Some years ago, maybe 7 or 8, maybe more, I used to help a friend out at his shop when he was short staffed. He employed young schoolboys to work evenings and weekends and I often found myself working with them. Some of them were lazy and had a real bad attitude, some the opposite and some were hopeless but were good lads despite that. One particular lad was a real laugh to work with, he tried but often got things hopelessly wrong. In exasperation at yet another cockup from him I sought ' words' that would show my frustration without wanting to upset him. I said "You're so............. Gay" 
He thought it hilarious and it wasn't long before they all started saying it to each other and........

Maybe it was just coincidence?


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## Noel (15 May 2011)

studders":vp0eg4nz said:


> Noel":vp0eg4nz said:
> 
> 
> > Gay is back, just means something else now for the 3rd time, as in "you are so gay".
> ...



Wikipedia page coming up? 
Hey, you never know, you could well be the man who started it.


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## devonwoody (15 May 2011)

What are the other meanings of fit then ?

To me, its healthy or put something together.


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## Jensmith (15 May 2011)

devonwoody":1u5uh2sp said:


> What are the other meanings of fit then ?
> 
> To me, its healthy or put something together.



A guy who is good looking/ hunky is 'fit'. That was around when I was at high school so at least 15 years ago now.


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## devonwoody (15 May 2011)

Jensmith":3f56b0iz said:


> devonwoody":3f56b0iz said:
> 
> 
> > What are the other meanings of fit then ?
> ...




You must be has old fashioned as me, that was its meaning over 60 years ago. In the first post above the young children in the back of the car obviously have a different understanding of its definition.


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## Pvt_Ryan (15 May 2011)

Once upon a time I had a teacher that used "vexing" (annoying) and "vexate" (annoy). I just loved the terminaology.. 

A Faggot is a bundle of sticks (though I will admit I do snigger when there is an advert for Mr Brains Faggots due to its current meaning).


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## Anonymous (15 May 2011)

'you're so gay' was around when i was at school i left in 98'

i like the word vexing.


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## Lons (15 May 2011)

Good on yer - quite right too!

We have a couple of diesel and a petrol vehicle. I got fed up being "corrected" when saying put petrol / diesel in while you're out (always wrong fuel), so started saying "fuesel the car please" - and it stuck.

Loads of Geordie words used around here which get srange looks. e.g. "humped or humping" (to carry something heavy) has a very different meaning :lol: 

Bob


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## Eric The Viking (15 May 2011)

My current pet hates are not using 'due to' and 'because of' in their correct meanings:

"The train was only slightly late because of the Martian attack, and... " (thing/event)

"... credit is due to David for sounding the alert." (person)

And, even worse, using "impact' as a synonym for 'effect', or worse still, 'impact' 
as the verb 'to affect'. There is no verb 'to impact' (or there didn't used to be, unless 
you were a dentist!). 

"Rising sea levels will have a big effect on the tomatoes grown in Tibet." (they won't 'impact' anything!)

"The impact of the egg on the the concrete revealed it to be made of china." (smashingly correct)

Political types, especially, love to abuse that one, but, if they continue, we'll have to find a new noun for all the things they've messed-up. 

It's no yolk, I tells 'ee...

E.


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## Benchwayze (15 May 2011)

The most irritating aspect of youngsters' speech for me is:

'I am *so *not going!' And other uses of the word so, to emphasise negatives. I am no expert, but it must be grammatically incorrect and sounds ridiculous into the bargain.

What the Dickens do they teach them at school? Anything? Or not nothing! Innit! 

And now my lovely granddaughter, just into Comprehensive School, is beginning to pick up the junk phrases, (Wha'eveah!) and 'following trends', just when I thought she was above all that! She's becoming one of 'them'! It sickens me.

Or as some would say, 'It 'incentivises' me to vomit.' :evil: 

John


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## Anonymous (15 May 2011)

Benchwayze":36odisz1 said:


> The most irritating aspect of youngsters' speech for me is:
> 
> 'I am *so *not going!' And other uses of the word so, to emphasise negatives. I am no expert, but it must be grammatically incorrect and sounds ridiculous into the bargain.
> 
> ...



My grandparents whom i saw a lot of, used to correct my speech on a regular basis, so as far as my Brummie accent goes its virtually none existent. I hate with a passion how kids of today speak, and I am forever correcting my niece and nephew (10 and 8) they just laugh at me and tell me I am old before my time!!!!


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## Benchwayze (15 May 2011)

Tried it Mark. 

All I get is a shrug or a sulk. It's as if I don't have the right to correct her, because I am not a teacher! I still do correct her but even my daughter says, 'We're wasting our time. She's become a teenager.'

I don't like my daughter's attitude either, but if she can't get through then she can't get through. As I said; sickening. 

John :|


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## Anonymous (15 May 2011)

personally I blame it on the teachers to be honest........................(can of worms now open)


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## Digit (15 May 2011)

Or the universal cry of the 'innocent,' _I ain't dun nuffin!'_
But we had this debate some time ago when I fell foul of one chap and another insisted that there is nothing wrong with modern education, the lack of grammar, or spelling, even mental arithmetic is deemed unnecessary it seems.
The teachers were themselves the victims of the effete elite who decided that there must be no winners, as that implies losers, in their new world of equality.
The latest report that I have seen shows the UK slipping further and further down the skills league.

Roy.


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## Anonymous (15 May 2011)

Digit":26m2ri4u said:


> Or the universal cry of the 'innocent,' _I ain't dun nuffin!'_
> But we had this debate some time ago when I fell foul of one chap and another insisted that there is nothing wrong with modern education, the lack of grammar, or spelling, even mental arithmetic is deemed unnecessary it seems.
> The teachers were themselves the victims of the effete elite who decided that there must be no winners, as that implies losers, in their new world of equality.
> The latest report that I have seen shows the UK slipping further and further down the skills league.
> ...



He'll be along soon........................


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## Benchwayze (15 May 2011)

mark270981":3o4gs0g2 said:


> personally I blame it on the teachers to be honest........................(can of worms now open)



Certainly a degree of 'backing' from teachers would be useful, but each Friday lunchtime a group of teachers congregates in my local. The row these people kick up and the expressions they use, make me realise, they are but kids themselves. What chance does my granddaughter stand with 'role-models' like that? 

I suppose my reactions are due to the fact I was more or less, a clone of my parents.
These days that isn't the case. Children are encouraged to express themselves. they are informed of their rights; but sadly, not of their responsibilities! 

John


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## studders (15 May 2011)

mark270981":1nl636rc said:


> 'you're so gay' was around when i was at school i left in 98'
> 
> i like the word vexing.



Well, as I left in '75 I wouldn't have known the School phrases post then. I'd certainly never heard it used, in the context I used it in, or any other, prior to saying it.
Also, back in '75 at least, Capitals were in common usage.


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## studders (15 May 2011)

I recently watched a program about buying, or not buying, Houses. The number of times the participants used the phrase 'In tit' was quite staggering.


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## devonwoody (15 May 2011)

I have a granddaughter who is a teacher at a well known private school and a pupil said to her, each lesson costs my parents £40 per lesson. :roll:


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## Digit (15 May 2011)

I belong to a biker forum, and this shows up the current levels of literacy. Some members refuse to struggle though what the poster is trying to say in mangled English.
What really offends me is politicians who wish to destroy grammar schools etc then pay to send their dear little offspring to private schools.
Wonder if they can spell hypocrisy?

Roy.


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## RogerS (15 May 2011)

Certainly. I hate it's replacement 'For Sure'


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## Eric The Viking (15 May 2011)

Well...
... my smallest daughter was, like, at a party, like yesterday afternoon, like, and I, like, fetched her from it. She had a friend, like, with her, who, like, gave me, like, directions, like, to her house, like.

We had, "This road gets to, like a T-junction." and, "Our road is, like, U-shaped..." and so, like, on.

It's, like, bloomin' infuriating, like.


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## Digit (15 May 2011)

Innit?

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (15 May 2011)

I have to confess to the occasional 'for sure'. It might be a habit I picked up talking to American friends on line. 

That's my excuse, certainly! 
Swell!

John


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## Digit (15 May 2011)

Confession time! I tend to use 'Like' more than I would like!  

Roy.


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## Anonymous (15 May 2011)

my brother in law uses the words 'for sure' and it was contagious then i made a conscious effort to make sure i didn't use it for sure.

The one i hate the most is 'what not'


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## Digit (15 May 2011)

'At the end of the day!' is another.

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (15 May 2011)

Without wishing to annoy Liverpudlians, cos I have some good pals from up there, where does 'made-up', (as in being happy), come from? To us down here made-up means wearing cosmetics. The women too! :mrgreen:

John


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## Lons (15 May 2011)

Nothing really changes though, does it?

I'm sure if we all think back, we used to pick up the common phrases and "buzz words" around us. A bit like lapsing into an accent when conversing with folk from other areas - embarassing  

I know when I was in guaranteed monthly salary employment, my family forever ribbed me for using phrases such as "at the end of the day" which crept into my daily repertoire.(if that's the right word).

Personally I'm gutted every time I hear the words "I'm gutted" spoken by those idiotic, sometimes well respected idiots on TV. (hammer) 

Just don't get me started on the number of kids who can't spell or write a letter unless it's in "text speak" :roll: :roll: saw a CV recently sent to a mate which was clearly one of those standard formulations used by the job centres but the covering "letter" was exactly as if reading a shorthand text from a mobile. I suspect he's now binned it but if not, I'll post it for a laugh.

Bob


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## Digit (15 May 2011)

One that pineappled me off was a 16 yr old young lady on TV who had failed her exams 'cos nobody had told her in her prep the meaning of the word 'despot'. Thus she was unable to answer the question, 'was Hitler a despot'. She claimed that her life had been 'seriously ruined!'
Big aaah!

Roy.


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## Shrubby (15 May 2011)

watch the Armstrong and Miller RAF sketches on youtube

My peeve is corporate jargon - utterly brain dead. Bring Trollop and Wazzock back into regular use

Matt


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## barkwindjammer (15 May 2011)

Digit":e9uefyvo said:


> 'At the end of the day!' is another.
> 
> Roy.



my Tourettes kicks in with this one

"23:59 and 59 seconds-precisely"


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## condeesteso (15 May 2011)

Wow, good responses!! Enjoyed reading. Eric the V first post truly excellent... and on a lighter note re Geordie... Michael Macintyre saying some guy looked across the bar and said "Is yous lookin' at us?" (he was alone). M M says "Just how many mistakes can you make in one sentence?" Funny, that!


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## RogerM (16 May 2011)

No one's touched on the incorrect use of "less" in place of "fewer" yet. I get thoroughly pineappled by people who should know better - particularly BBC interviewers - who talk about "less people" - and I'll swear that recently I heard one refer to "a less amount" of people. Whenever I hear "less people" I normally respond by saying they are the same size as they always were - it's just that there are fewer of them. Rant - like - over, for sure!


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## Benchwayze (16 May 2011)

All languages must evolve, or we would still be using words like 'prithee', and 'methinks' on a regular basis. 


However, I agree Richard and I believe the authorities have shunned Fowler's 'English Usage and Abusage' for some years now. My online dictionary won't even accept abusage, but then it is an American browser, so I am not surprised! Please, don't get me started on punctuation and your-you're and its-it's. :roll: 

John


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## woodbloke (16 May 2011)

Interesting reads to date...let's not forget that the language is a 'living' thing and whether we like certain phrases or not, sufficient usage within the populace at large means that they become 'official'. You only need to read a piece of 19th century text from the Times to realize how the language moves on, even more obtuse is trying to fathom your way through Chaucer...init? - Rob


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## RogerM (16 May 2011)

woodbloke":102ac9n4 said:


> Interesting reads to date...let's not forget that the language is a 'living' thing and whether we like certain phrases or not, sufficient usage within the populace at large means that they become 'official'. You only need to read a piece of 19th century text from the Times to realize how the language moves on, even more obtuse is trying to fathom your way through Chaucer...init? - Rob




I completely agree Rob, but sometimes a word which has a precise meaning is misused so often that the original precise meaning is lost. Then when we want to express ourselves precisely and unambiguously there isn't a word that will do that any more.


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## Lons (16 May 2011)

Benchwayze":74wljezi said:


> All languages must evolve, or we would still be using words like 'prithee', and 'methinks' on a regular basis.




What :shock: When did that happen :?: News to me :? :?


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## Benchwayze (16 May 2011)

Lons":3vv1dl95 said:


> Benchwayze":3vv1dl95 said:
> 
> 
> > All languages must evolve, or we would still be using words like 'prithee', and 'methinks' on a regular basis.
> ...



Since we replaced it with the word please Lons! :mrgreen: 

John 
:wink:


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## Pvt_Ryan (16 May 2011)

methinks I still use methinks... :/


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## studders (16 May 2011)

4soof.

A new take on an old favourite?


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## Benchwayze (16 May 2011)

Pvt_Ryan":22klu4jw said:


> methinks I still use methinks... :/



Me to PR, although, I didn't say that no one used it any more, but it is a word that isn't used a lot these days. 
Methinks I should have composed my post 'carefuller'! :lol: 

Cheers

John


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## DOOGYREV (18 May 2011)

condeesteso":2youv96a said:


> First, here's a tale.
> Some years ago I was driving through south London, wife beside me, 2 daughters in back. We approached one of the long hills near Crystal Palace, and I saw a guy on a bike cycling up-hill very impressively. Without thinking (much) I said "Wow, he looks fit."
> The reaction from the back of the car was immediate and electric - the daughters were beside themselves... near pain with laughter.
> That was when I learned that 'fit' means something else now, and one man mustn't say that about another man. That was not always the case.
> ...



Some great posts, I have enjoyed reading them.
Some of the words I would like to see 're-activated' are; Hoodwinked, Artisan and Lackadaisical.

I also like the idea of Onomatopoeia when it comes to the creation of new words, like the welsh for microwave is something like 'pop ti ping' although I am unaware of the origin, I believe it works well.


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## Digit (18 May 2011)

As stated earlier, the language evolves, only dead ones, such as Latin and classical Greek, do not.
Prithy, for example is a derivation of 'pray thee', _but_ evolution is no excuse for lack of grammar, punctuation or bad spelling.

Roy.


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## DOOGYREV (18 May 2011)

I saw a episode of QI a while back, an I was pleased to hear that they have abolished the apostrophe to indicate the possessive, I never could get the hang of that thing, it just means feet to me.
They also stated that they no longer teach i before e with the exception being after c, because as it turns out there are exceptions to the rule then there are in the rule itsself.


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## Digit (18 May 2011)

> that they have abolished the apostrophe to indicate the possessive,



Who has? Actually it does not indicate possession, it indicates a missing letter, usually E, as in Dan's, possessive, as opposed to Dans, plural.
How would you manage this without the apostrophe?
There was an example of this recently in a Sunday paper with street names, eg, 'Pipers Croft' versus 'Piper's Croft', somewhat different I think. It all comes down to grammar, as no longer taught, as being unimportant.

Roy.


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## RogerM (18 May 2011)

Digit":271bdfvo said:


> > that they have abolished the apostrophe to indicate the possessive,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're not married to Lynn Truss by any chance are you Roy? I do agree with you though. It all comes back to what I said earlier concerning the retention of words (and grammar) that have a precise meaning, which eventually becomes lost if they are deemed to be interchangeable. I need only refer to my own "bete noir" - "less" and "fewer".


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## Digit (18 May 2011)

> You're not married to Lynn Truss


Who?

The apostrophe was introduced to help remove ambiguities from the written word, remove them and you reintroduce those ambiguities.
But why stop there? Let's remove punctuation marks, capital letters, sentences and paragraphs. If anyone thinks that that is good idea I suggest they try reading some posts on the various social sites!

Roy.


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## DOOGYREV (18 May 2011)

Digit":1halzok7 said:


> > that they have abolished the apostrophe to indicate the possessive,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Birmingham
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... uncil.html


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## Digit (18 May 2011)

Typical socialism! They don't know what they are talking about so they ban others.
Or should I have written, 'They dont know what there talking about so etc etc etc'.
Dumbing down is now official policy.
I'll bet they know all about Councillor's-Councillors expenses though,
No wonder employers are spending millions teaching school leavers to read, write and count, or should that be Count?

Roy.


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## gus3049 (18 May 2011)

For those of you that enjoy language try this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

Whilst I sort of agree with him, I am old enough to hold on to the way I learnt my language like grim death. I agree wholeheartedly with 'numbers' and 'amounts' , 'less' and 'fewer' etc., drives me nuts.


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## promhandicam (18 May 2011)

From the Oxford Dictionaries Website:


> The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words.



With over 170,000 words to choose from why is it that so many people use so few and even then they still get the meaning wrong. Insure / Ensure / Assure springs to mind. Interestingly, before reading this thread, I wrote an email to a customer and used the word obviate as I couldn't think of a better word to sum up what I wanted to say. Knowing them, I know they won't have to google it to find out the meaning but for many people I would hazard a guess that it is a word that ironically they think is unnecessary. :wink:


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## treeturner123 (18 May 2011)

I'm with Eric on the use of 'Like'. I had to endure a 2 hour train journey to London opposite 2 students (American girls) who chatted the whole way there using said word at least twice in every (what passed for a) sentence. By the time I had finished working on my laptop and was ready to change to a place where I could not hear them (the quiet coach), we had reached Reading and as anyone knows who uses that line in the mornining, there were no spare seats!

I keep Lyn Truss (or at least her book) by my bed and get regularly laughed at by 3 daughters, though they do speak reasonably well.

My current hate though is 'Twitter'. I heard Sean Lock on the radio this evening saying exactly what I feel. Birds twitter or tweet, people are just verbally incontinent. The word he used was 'B**l*xing. Quite right, that is all it is. I really do NOT want to know what some 'famous for 15 mins' person is doing every minute of the day. GET A LIFE THERE!!!!

Another rant over for the moment

Phil


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## Benchwayze (18 May 2011)

Today on BBC. 

Haitch instead of aitch.

Unsurmountable instead of insurmountable! :twisted:


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## Anonymous (18 May 2011)

promhandicam":3vnfr1xt said:


> From the Oxford Dictionaries Website:
> 
> 
> > The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words.




Where the bloody hell are they when I am playing Scrabble?!


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## Benchwayze (19 May 2011)

Phil, 

'Eats, Shoots and Leaves.' I must get that book. (Methinks) I might, like, enjoy it, y'know? :mrgreen: 
I could talk about Sean Lock, but I fear it might hijack the thread! 

What about 'All that glisters is not gold'. That's my 'favourite' misquote. 

Regards
John


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## Lons (19 May 2011)

treeturner123":pz9fdb3d said:


> My current hate though is 'Twitter'. I heard Sean Lock on the radio this evening saying exactly what I feel. Birds twitter or tweet, people are just verbally incontinent. The word he used was 'B**l*xing. Quite right, that is all it is. I really do NOT want to know what some 'famous for 15 mins' person is doing every minute of the day. GET A LIFE THERE!!!!l



=D> =D> =D> 

Makes me cringe and facebook is even worse :roll:


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## studders (19 May 2011)

Benchwayze":2tmgfdyg said:


> What about 'All that glisters is not gold'. That's my 'favourite' misquote.
> 
> Regards
> John



Or... 'There's a Time and Place for Everything'


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## bugbear (19 May 2011)

Digit":2loeduje said:


> Innit?



"innit" appears to be indistinguishable in use from the old upper class (and Minnesotan, googling leads me to believe) "don't you know".

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (19 May 2011)

I heard an educated lady Doctor use the word 'innit' yesterday, although she said 'Isn't it?' But she tagged it on the end of 'We will have to wait and see, "isn't it?"Which sounded ridiculous. Although she probably is bi-lingual, which I am not, so I'll forgive her! 

So I believe 'innit' is a lazy way of saying 'Is it not', which, when placed at the end of a sentence is redundancy, is it not? :mrgreen: 

John


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## RogerM (19 May 2011)

Yo Bruv! Ya know what I mean? Wicked!


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## woodbloke (19 May 2011)

RogerM":2vpmj65h said:


> Yo Bruv! Ya know what I mean? Wicked!


...init, like :lol:, or should it be 'like, init' - Rob


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## DOOGYREV (19 May 2011)

A word I have always used, and still suprises me how many people dont know the meaning of, even people in the trade is - Skeiling 
http://www.defineonline.com/Definition. ... d=skeiling
Has anyone else encountered this or any like it?

Doogy


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## Eric The Viking (19 May 2011)

Benchwayze":36hie65b said:


> All languages must evolve, or we would still be using words like 'prithee', and 'methinks' on a regular basis.



Do you mean you don't, like, 

prithee?

E.


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## Benchwayze (19 May 2011)

Not what I meant Eric. 

I just tried to point out that there are old-fashioned words we no longer use quite so much, due to the evolution of the language. 


E.g:

Methinks - I think
Prithee - please. 
We don't use the word pray in that context, quite so much either. As in, 'Pray, pass the salt.'


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## Lons (19 May 2011)

DOOGYREV":v8ayma2g said:


> A word I have always used, and still suprises me how many people dont know the meaning of, even people in the trade is - Skeiling
> http://www.defineonline.com/Definition. ... d=skeiling
> Has anyone else encountered this or any like it?
> 
> Doogy



I'm in the trade and didn't know that :? but your link does suggest it is local to sussex - that's a hell of a long way from Northumberland - don't have "skeilings here - just tin roofs :wink: 

Bob


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## DOOGYREV (19 May 2011)

I hadnt realised it was localised, I thought I had better find a definition before I posted it. Here is a better link
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skeiling
Perhaps this is a fine example of a new word that is already on its way to being in common use, it would appear that it has alredy spread from Sussex to Somerset, Wiltshire, Berkshire, Dorset, Hampshire and Surrey, the Isle of Wight and the Channel Islands (Guernsey and Jersey).


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## Lons (20 May 2011)

DOOGYREV":28u0mudz said:


> Perhaps this is a fine example of a new word that is already on its way to being in common use, it would appear that it has alredy spread from Sussex to Somerset, Wiltshire, Berkshire, Dorset, Hampshire and Surrey, the Isle of Wight and the Channel Islands (Guernsey and Jersey).



:shock: I'm not having that :shock: 

Invasion of words from you "southerners" :lol: here's one back at you:

*"spuggie"* ( geordie word for sparrow ). People who use it also sometimes call a sparrowhawk a *"spuggiehawk"*........ _ Not me though - Aa was better brung up than that an lorned tae speak proper england like_
Strange language we have :? 

Bob


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## Benchwayze (20 May 2011)

studders":23kd5ucg said:


> Benchwayze":23kd5ucg said:
> 
> 
> > What about 'All that glisters is not gold'. That's my 'favourite' misquote.
> ...



Well, at the moment, very little is in its place in my workshop, quote or misquote! :mrgreen: 

John


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## studders (20 May 2011)

Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps, out there in Spaceland, there is such a thing. :duno: 
Meanwhile, back here on Earthland, my Workshop/Storage is finally starting to resemble something approaching organised....
Only taken me 25+ years too.


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## Chataigner (20 May 2011)

I have really enjoyed reading these posts. Some nice points and a lot of wit (that's another word we hear infrequently).

For me, the purpose of correct grammer etc. is to communicate unambiguously. I find it sad that my daughter, who has a masters (master's?) degree by the way, uses 'brought' as the past tense of 'to buy'. 

...and another thing, what happened to the subjunctive? Because it is used extensively in french, I find myself trying to explain it to english people here who are trying to master french. None of them seem to know what it is.


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## bugbear (20 May 2011)

Chataigner":3l6mo6a1 said:


> ...and another thing, what happened to the subjunctive? Because it is used extensively in french, I find myself trying to explain it to english people here who are trying to master french. None of them seem to know what it is.



One has to be careful here - grammar is merely created by academics trying to describe what the language already does. Hence grammar rules must follow language, not the other way round. More people can use the pluperfect than can define it (or have heard of it!)

By the way, adjectives describing nationality should start with a capital.  

It also used to be rule (for those that wish to follow old rules) that one shouldn't start a sentence with a conjunction, such as "and".  

BugBear


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## studders (20 May 2011)

Chataigner":26f1org1 said:


> a lot of wit (that's another word we hear infrequently).



I hear 'Halfwit' quite often when I'm around (just as well really, if I heard it when I wasn't around it would be worrying).


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## studders (20 May 2011)

bugbear":294obvoc said:


> It also used to be rule (for those that wish to follow old rules) that one shouldn't start a sentence with a conjunction, such as "and".
> 
> BugBear



The Oxford 'And' ?


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## Harbo (20 May 2011)

I hail originally from Yorkshire where a few Nordic (Viking) words were/are? in use - "Laiking" which means messing about/playing.
Usually said as "stop laiking about".
We used a "buffet" instead of "stool" - the seat variety.
My mother used to say "slart" for fruit juice but I am sure she made that up?

When I moved down south and actually worked in a Castle I soon learned to say *Caarr*sel and butt*errr* for butter.  

Rod


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## RogerM (20 May 2011)

Harbo":2rgtwvtu said:


> I hail originally from Yorkshire where a few Nordic (Viking) words were/are? in use - "Laiking" which means messing about/playing.
> Usually said as "stop laiking about".


 Surely just a version of "larking about" ?


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## studders (20 May 2011)

When I was young, so long ago now, sigh..... , I was sure there was a thing called a 'Wossisname' as I heard it being referred to so many times. I also thought what I now know as a Linen Basket was called a Lid n Basket.


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## bugbear (20 May 2011)

RogerM":1hbzsus1 said:


> Harbo":1hbzsus1 said:
> 
> 
> > I hail originally from Yorkshire where a few Nordic (Viking) words were/are? in use - "Laiking" which means messing about/playing.
> ...



Some quick etymological research reveals that "laiking" is the father of "larking".

So I suppose "larking" is a version of "laiking", rather than the other way round.

BugBear


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## Chataigner (20 May 2011)

bugbear":3vx33tg3 said:


> Chataigner":3vx33tg3 said:
> 
> 
> > It also used to be rule (for those that wish to follow old rules) that one shouldn't start a sentence with a conjunction, such as "and".
> ...



A preposition is not a suitable word to end a sentence with. :lol: :lol:


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## gus3049 (20 May 2011)

Have we started on split infinitives yet?


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## Digit (20 May 2011)

NO!

Roy.


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## studders (20 May 2011)

gus3049":3q10v90c said:


> Have we started on split infinitives yet?



I'm Bald, so I don't have to worry about them anymore. (homer)

Mind you, my Dangling Participles could use a little work.


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## Benchwayze (20 May 2011)

gus3049":1b2xxgzv said:


> Have we started on split infinitives yet?



My pet hate. It is the one grammatical error up with which I will not put! 

e haven't started on them yet, but I think we soonly will... :mrgreen: 

John


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## Digit (20 May 2011)

No! I forbid it! (hammer) 

Roy.


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## Chataigner (20 May 2011)

Benchwayze":35gn0wzg said:


> gus3049":35gn0wzg said:
> 
> 
> > Have we started on split infinitives yet?
> ...



Considered to be correct in US english I believe, though a friend said only one adverb, so the oft quoted "to boldly go" is OK, but "to quickly boldly go" is not. Any Americans out there who can comment?


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## Benchwayze (20 May 2011)

Chataigner":3ua6uv7w said:


> Benchwayze":3ua6uv7w said:
> 
> 
> > gus3049":3ua6uv7w said:
> ...



US English isn't English. Period!

Webster changed spellings because he wanted to be different to Britain and he had a 'big' thing over phonetics. So centre became center and so on. 

I think split infinitives sound clumsy, whether modern usage recognises them or not. 

But that's just me. 

John


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## barkwindjammer (21 May 2011)

This pair always makes oi larf :lol: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BqaSuE ... r_embedded


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## condeesteso (21 May 2011)

This has developed into a really good read. Well on the way to making a good bedside book - seriously. Do we all own the publishing rights?


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## Digit (21 May 2011)

One thing that has always fascinated me is the origin of some every day words. Take for example the humble spanner, a tool we are all familiar with, what's its origin?
It turns out, like quite a few words, to have originated with fire arms, to be precise, with the wheel lock.
The wheel was like the wheel in the modern lighter, and performed the same function, it produced a stream of sparks to ignite the powderin the pan.
The wheel was operated by a clock type spring that had to be wound up, which act was performed with a key type device.
The instructions for winding the spring were, _span your weapon!_ hence, spanner.

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (21 May 2011)

Digit":2oos5wk7 said:


> One thing that has always fascinated me is the origin of some every day words. Take for example the humble spanner, a tool we are all familiar with, what's its origin?
> It turns out, like quite a few words, to have originated with fire arms, to be precise, with the wheel lock.
> The wheel was like the wheel in the modern lighter, and performed the same function, it produced a stream of sparks to ignite the powderin the pan.
> The wheel was operated by a clock type spring that had to be wound up, which act was performed with a key type device.
> ...


Thanks Roy.I didn't know that. Another daily bit of learning.

It doesn't have quite the same ring as 'Monkey-Wrench' though does it! 'Right men! You heard the Captain. By Numbers... Wrench your weapons...! '

'I think we're stepping into the realms of fantasy here Corporal Jones!' 

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

John


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## Digit (21 May 2011)

Ah! They don't like it up 'em!

Roy.


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## Digit (22 May 2011)

How many of us, I wonder, when swearing about the doddery old so and so at the head of a slow moving line of traffic are aware that Dodder was the Anglo Saxon for Snail? Another everyday word of ancient lineage.

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (22 May 2011)

Where does all this stuff come from Roy? Excuse the cliché, but you are a mine of information! Thanks.

Regards
John 


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## Digit (22 May 2011)

Age John, a photographic memory and many interests besides woodwork and motor bikes.
One word that I've never been able to resolve is 'Bodger', in the High Wycome area of course it was a spindle maker, elsewhere a lousy worker.

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (22 May 2011)

My photographic memory is selective Roy! There are pages of text I can see in front of me from my teens, but then sometimes I can't recall what i had for breakfast a week before!

I won't list my interests here as I too have many. My Missus says I am Mercurial. (I had to look up that word BTW!) :lol: 

But I never had heard of 'Dodder' referred to a snail!. Makes sense though. And yes, here in Brum too, a bodger is a 'cowboy'! 

John


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## Digit (22 May 2011)

I live in fear that my memory will fill up! I seem able to forget nothing!

Roy.


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## gus3049 (22 May 2011)

Digit":115ms14l said:


> One word that I've never been able to resolve is 'Bodger', in the High Wycome area of course it was a spindle maker, elsewhere a lousy worker.
> 
> Roy.



Ah, another misused word. Time was a 'bodger' was well respected member of society who was ,as you say a spindle maker but also a chair maker and general Mr. Fixit. Usually an itinerant worker. How the word was hijacked I don't know but presumably because they tended to be a jack of all trades. Actually, many of them seem to have been masters of all of them judging by some of the work I've seen in museums.


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## Eric The Viking (22 May 2011)

bugbear":6kj6lh8z said:


> It also used to be rule (for those that wish to follow old rules) that one shouldn't start a sentence with a conjunction, such as "and".



I don't think that has obtained for quite a while. Even Strunk & White indicate it's acceptable in some circumstances (IIRC). It provides additional emphasis, and since written language should reflect speech, that, to me, makes sense.

My least favourite misapplications list presently includes:

"Light year," as a unit of time,

"Quantum leap," as anything, especially not anything other than a very, VERY small jump, 

"prevaricate" as an incorrect substitute for 'procrastinate' (Malapropism?).

Cheers,

E. (pedantry R we)


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## Digit (22 May 2011)

My personal favourite is 'awful,' meaning filled with awe!

Roy.


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## Eric The Viking (22 May 2011)

On split infinitives: I've just searched my copy of the Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual. It's an American edition from 1994. There's no reference.

The Economist style guide says, _"To never split an infinitive is quite easy."_ I assume, therefore, that it bothers their sub-editors little.

Strunk & White (American) have a nice take on it: _"There is precedent from the fourteenth century down for interposing an adverb_... [but it] _should be avoided unless the writer wishes to place unusual stress on the adverb." _

And there is even a woody quote on the subject: _"Some infinitives seem to improve on being split, just as a stick of round stovewood does."_ In their terms, I think that means it's deprecated!

I can't find the reference to starting sentences with conjunctions. I'm beginning to suspect I imagined it.

E.


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## heimlaga (26 May 2011)

bugbear":3370htpj said:


> RogerM":3370htpj said:
> 
> 
> > Harbo":3370htpj said:
> ...



In my very oldfashioned dialect of Swedish "ti leik" means "to play" children's play. In Icelandic "leik" also refers to sports. 
An aquintance who had visited York heard Yorkshiremen refere to children as "bairns". That is for sure the nordic word "barn".


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## condeesteso (26 May 2011)

re bairn, I know it widely used in west Scotland (specifically Ayrshire)... the wee bairns = the small children. Still in very common use to this day. And will I be OK making my dovetails with a double bewel axe? I'd like to get down to one tool does everything - reduce the clutter. As you get older, less is supposed to be more.


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## Harbo (26 May 2011)

Watching the 2nd Wallander series it's amazing how many Swedish words are similar especially as the Vikings invaded 1300 years ago?

Rod


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## studders (27 May 2011)

I thought that too, at times they almost seem to be speaking English. 
Been watching a few Icelandic progs recently, apart from 'thanks' and 'Hi' I can't make out what they're saying at all: just sounds like a lot of 'Grrrrr ing' .


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## heimlaga (27 May 2011)

Especially in boat building there are a lot of old words that are common for English and our dialect of Swedish. The difference between our dialect and standard Swedish is greater than between English spoken in Tennessee and in Glasgow.

Stem= stam
oar= oåro
Seam=sii
Land= land (the overlap in lapstrake planking)
Mast= Mast
Keel=tjyöl

A part of it surely came to England with the wikings and part may go back to the Saxons and Angles who in part came from the border region between Germany and Denmark.

Still in the 13th centuries the Scandinavian languages were considered one language as people could understand each other all the way from the coast of Finland to Greenland and the Norse settlements in Scotland. Then contact was lost and the dialects diverified so much that in the 19th century Swedes from different parts of the country did not understand each other. Now the language rapidly becomes more standardized but sadly the Stockholm dialect that became standard Swedish is the dialect that is furthest away from it's origin.

Icelandic is much different from the other Scandinavian languages. Still very close the 13th century old Norse. I can understand most of it in text but when they speak too fast I understand nothing. To those who speak standard Swedish Icelandic is totally indecipherable but up here we keep much enough of the old words and grammar to give us a good starting point.


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## Eric The Viking (27 May 2011)

We also have "pram" dinghies, Larboard (port), rubbing strakes, and quite a few other words. I think a number are Dutch (pram?) , but I'm sure there are a lot that are Norse.

E.


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## Benchwayze (29 May 2011)

Eric The Viking":65xsjric said:


> We also have "pram" dinghies, Larboard (port), rubbing strakes, and quite a few other words. I think a number are Dutch (pram?) , but I'm sure there are a lot that are Norse.
> 
> E.


I think the term Starboard came from the side which shipped the steering oar. 'Steerboard'. Just a guess. 

Anyhow Larboard is Port which is LEFT in the bottle. It's also red of course, in case anyone would like a neumonic! :mrgreen:


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## heimlaga (30 May 2011)

Yes indeed.

"Starboard" is "styrbord" in Swedish. Directly translated that becomes "steerboard". The steering oar was always on the starboard quarter.
"Larboard" is "babord" in Swedish. I suppose the word originally was "barbord" which would mean "bareboard". There is no steering oar so the larboard quarter is indeed bare.

"Bord" means plank but also in some cases ship's topside.

Pram dinghies are called "eka" or "snebba" in Swedish. No connection there.


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## theblindwoodturner (30 May 2011)

is pineapple a universal insult or is this a complete fruit salad based series of insults or mask words?

Plum bob?

OK all bets are off lol it's a run by fruiting ladies and gentlemen and WE'RE OFF!!!!!!!!!!!

(hamster playing with a lonely wood shaving about to start walking in lathe mounted hamster wheel) 20rpm.

that keeps any woodworking hamster or wood based rodent quite amused.


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## feswood (2 Jun 2011)

I saw a guy on a bike cycling up-hill very impressively. Without thinking (much) I said "Wow, he looks fit."
The reaction from the back of the car was immediate and electric - the daughters were beside themselves... near pain with laughter.
That was when I learned that 'fit' means something else now, and one man mustn't say that about another man. That was not always the case.
Toilet / toilette... I prefer the French ,So you like french fit men hmmmmm you coming out of the timber closet


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## Benchwayze (3 Jun 2011)

theblindwoodturner":2yp0i9d0 said:


> is pineapple a universal insult or is this a complete fruit salad based series of insults or mask words?



It's a 'Masking' word BT. 

John


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## Eric The Viking (5 Jun 2011)

To change the subject ever-so-slightly:

This week I has been mainly thinking about, er, dovetail angles and stuff. So, over breakfast this morning, I turned to Joyce* to get his take on it. My edition was revised by the late, great Alan Peters, so I'm never sure how much of the wry wit is attributable to whom. 

Anyway, near the end of a really good description of basic dovetail cutting in Ch. 14, came this (emphasis mine):


"As with all woodworking activities the only true guide is positive experience, often bitter but nevertheless inevitable. _On no account should dovetails be '*bishoped*'_, i.e. hit with a hammer to spread the fibres and tighten up a slack fit."

Bishoped! 

I've no doubt those of senior years and experience will already be familiar with this one, but it was new to me and caused a hoot of laughter. Imagining the origin of the term also caused some amusement: the nearest I can remember was a game played in the Methodist church youth group of my youth called 'Beat the bishop', involving a rolled-up newspaper. 

That's probably an ancient score being settled in jest (no love lost between the Methodists and the Anglican hierarchy), but the woodworking term I can only guess at. It may be the pin is reminiscent of a bishop's mitre (hat), but there may well be something far more interesting (and amusing).

Does anyone know?

Cheers,

E.

*"The Technique of Furniture Making", Ernest Joyce, 4th ed. revised by Alan Peters, 1987, p.173.


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## gus3049 (5 Jun 2011)

Eric The Viking":1iaj76ia said:


> To change the subject ever-so-slightly:
> 
> This week I has been mainly thinking about, er, dovetail angles and stuff. So, over breakfast this morning, I turned to Joyce* to get his take on it. My edition was revised by the late, great Alan Peters, so I'm never sure how much of the wry wit is attributable to whom.
> 
> ...



I too grew up a methodist but the only time we mentioned 'bishops' was when we were indeed er....'bashing ' it!


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