# Help with a door bell in a workshop



## MickCheese (26 Jan 2011)

I hope someone can help me.

My wife works from home in a log cabin workshop at the bottom of the garden (She is not a woodworker if that's what you thought).  

The workshop is about 40 - 50 metres as the crow flies from the front door where there is a bell push, but the house is in the way.

I have run bell wire to a bell in our hall from the bell push and all works fine. I then ran more bell wire from the first bell down the garden to the workshop. When I use the bell push nothing happens in the workshop but the bell in the hall sounds.

If I bridge the contacts in the workshop the bell works fine.

I am assuming the problem is the length of the wire.

Please don't suggest a wireless kit, wireless boosters or wireless anything or I will throw the computer through the window, tried them all and a considerable cost. They are so intermittent, they don't reliably work in the hall.

So, I think I need some sort of relay in the workshop that will pick up the signal from the bell push and allow me to amplify it to trigger the bell.

Can you help? What sort of relay should I get, there are loads at Maplins but I just don't know enough to know which I need, or, is there another solution?

Just a thought, they are just cheap, battery operated bells from Wickes, using four AA batteries in each so about 6v. Would I be better getting a transformer operated one?

Thanks in anticipation

Mick


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## Dibs-h (26 Jan 2011)

MickCheese":qwdfvfqo said:


> I hope someone can help me.
> 
> My wife works from home in a log cabin workshop at the bottom of the garden (She is not a woodworker if that's what you thought).
> 
> ...



Mick 

I understand what you want to do, but not entirely getting what you've done, interms of the connections.

An old fashioned doorbell diagram is as follows,







Now if you put aonther bell in parallel to the 1st one - i.e. take you length of wire, one connection to Terminal 1, the other to Terminal 2. The other ends go to the extension bell. Try it with a small length of "extension" wire and the extension bell near to the original bell.

Get it working in principle before anything else. A door bell cable - shouldn't be that kind of voltage drop. I'm wondering whether you have wired the extension in series instead of parallel, where you say



> If I bridge the contacts in the workshop the bell works fine.



makes me wonder.

HIH

Dibs


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## Racers (26 Jan 2011)

Hi, Mick

I think the problem so you have two battery operated bells connected to the same swtich, you should remove the batterys from the extention bell and connect it up as Dibs has shown in his diagram.


Pete


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## myturn (26 Jan 2011)

Also check the continuity of your newly run wire, it may have a break in it.

Join the two wires together at one end and measure resistance across the wires at the other end using a meter. 
If you don't have a meter use a battery and light bulb.

Presumably your wiring is as below?


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## dedee (26 Jan 2011)

Something that has always worked for me are baby monitors. The type where you plug in a transmitter in the baby's room and have a receiver, also plugged in, in the workshop. I could then hear the kids, the doorbell, the telephone and even the radio.
The transmitter need not be plugged in close to the doorbell as they are quite sensitive. I had no problems with at least 30m from transmitter to receiver.

Maybe you could try and borrow a set before you buy.

Andy


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## MickCheese (26 Jan 2011)

Dibs

That is what I have done, I think

I have gone from the bell push to bell 1 the two wires being + and - then onto bell 2 keeping the same positive and negative wires. What I meant by bridging the terminals was just using a piece of wire as though it were the bell push.

If I take the batteries out of the workshop bell I sill get 6.2 volts at the terminals coming through the bell wire from the first bell so there is no voltage drop. when I installed the bells I did disconnect the workshop bell from the wire from the first bell and just used a long piece of bell wire to see how far I could get from the bell before it stopped working. I got about 10 metres. That is what made me think it was the distance from the push that was stopping it working.

I may just try buying another unit with a transformer, that may be less likely to be so sensitive o this drop in resistance, if that is what it is?

I appreciate your advice on this, it is driving me crazy.

Edit - MyTurn, that is exactly how I have it wired.

Mick


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## Eric The Viking (26 Jan 2011)

Is it a mains (transformer) or battery-box type of bell system?

I'm guessing you want:

switch-----------------Bell(house)----------------Bell(w'shop)--------------Bell(gdn office)

If so, it may be a bit of a long run for bell wire. My guess is that the voltage is dropping too much at the far end, and your idea of relay(s) is a good one.

For each bell you'll need a transformer and a relay. It'll either be nominal 12V or nominal 24V for the bell, and that's what the relay needs to be. If 12V, cheap car relays should be fine. The relay coil goes across the bell wire, and switches the transformer across the bell itself.

If any places are in proximity, you can probably get away with two relays and xformers, just wiring the two bells nearest each other in parallel.

Circuit to follow in a sec...

E.






Note: doing it this way means the outside bells aren't affected by the bell in the hall. You could cheat, and wire the outer bell relays across the hall bell directly (saving the house's relay), but that might not make them work reliably. Also, if, like me, you kill the power in the workshop when you're not there, that will also turn off the bell in that area (annoys the neighbours less). HTH, E.


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## MickCheese (26 Jan 2011)

Eric The Viking and others thank you all, I now think I have my head around it.

Just a couple of question, should the bell push be on the positive or negative side of the circuit or does it not matter and the relay I have is a 12v car one, it has a fuse sticking out the top, do I assume correctly that the fuse protects the switched side of the relay?

Mick


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## Chems (26 Jan 2011)

I would find out how much voltage you are getting at the workshop. Then cut the circuit off down there and wire it back together with its own batteries and transistor who's base voltage is the same as the voltage. When the house circuit is pressed it will be enough to trigger the base of the transistor turning the second circuit on making the second bell work. Wouldn't cost more than a transistor and a battery pack.


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## Eric The Viking (26 Jan 2011)

MickCheese":2dundbt4 said:


> Eric The Viking and others thank you all, I now think I have my head around it.
> 
> Just a couple of question, should the bell push be on the positive or negative side of the circuit or does it not matter and the relay I have is a 12v car one, it has a fuse sticking out the top, do I assume correctly that the fuse protects the switched side of the relay?
> 
> Mick



They shouldn't be sensitive to polarity, and yes, the fuse should protect the load, which most probably isn't necessary in this case, unless you're wiring-in Big Ben.

Batteries will do instead of a transformer, and the wiring-up polarity shouldn't matter, as none of the battery boxes (or transformers) is physically connected to the others (although the house bell does the bell wire too).

Cheers,

E.


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## MickCheese (28 Jan 2011)

All

I am going mad.

Does it matter that the transformer output is 12v AC and my relay appears to be 12v DC?

When I connect it up as I think it should be all that happens is the relay buzzes.

This is how I am trying to do it before adding others. I feel that if I can get one to work I can easily get the others to work too.






Is there such a thing as a 12v AC relay? I am trying to use transformer output for the coil side of the relay, is that right?

As can be seen I am no electronics genius!

Mick


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## Dibs-h (28 Jan 2011)

MickCheese":3dg8apmi said:


> All
> 
> I am going mad.
> 
> ...



Yes it does - as you've found out, all it will do is buzz! :mrgreen: 

An automotive relay - will require DC across the coil. Most relays aren't too fussed what goes across the contacts.

You need one that can take AC across the coil, perhaps something like, http://www.maplin.co.uk/ultra-miniature ... lay-218688

Or http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/sear ... &R=7083131

HIH

Dibs


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## MickCheese (28 Jan 2011)

Dibs

You are a star, I feel I am actually getting somewhere now. Really appreciate the help.

Off to Maplins in the morning.

Regards

Mick


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## Dibs-h (28 Jan 2011)

MickCheese":qa981fd4 said:


> Dibs
> 
> You are a star, I feel I am actually getting somewhere now. Really appreciate the help.
> 
> ...



Mick

Hold on with rushing off to Maplins - just had a look on the Relay Specs and of those for a few others. There seems to be a bit of absence of relays for 12VAC, the ones linked I suspect might not do such a low voltage.

Let it with me - I'll have a look in the RS catalogue and see if something jumps out. Failing that - convert the 12VAC to 12VDC (it's easy peasy'ish) at which point - the rest all works.

Let me have a look\think.

Cheers

Dibs


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## MickCheese (29 Jan 2011)

Had an interesting few hours today with my multimetre and a soldering iron. :roll: 

Got two bells working just one more in the hall to go, need to fit a socket for the transformer.

Used three small relays and a bridge rectifier to change the AC to DC.

I have actually learnt a bit thanks to Dibs who, as well as helping here, has PM'd me with some further details too.

So thank you all who have shown an interest. Hope I have not bored to many with my ramblings.

Off to email NASA now to see if they want their space station rewired.  

Regards

Mick


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## Dibs-h (29 Jan 2011)

=D> =D> =D> :mrgreen: Result!

Mind you - when I have the garage & workshop complete - I have the same to do, bell in house & a bell in the garage and 1 in the shop.

Dibs

p.s. Fit a switch in line with the 2 extension bells - that if the workshop\office is unoccupied, it won't ring in there. A bog standard 1 gang light switch will do. Probably the cheapest option as well. Just surface mount it.



MickCheese":15q3sklm said:


> Had an interesting few hours today with my multimetre and a soldering iron. :roll:
> 
> Got two bells working just one more in the hall to go, need to fit a socket for the transformer.
> 
> ...


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## MickCheese (29 Jan 2011)

Dibs

Well let me know if you need any advice! :wink: 

Good idea but my wife seems to be in her workshop more than the house and she will blame me when she forgets to turn the bell back on.

She is not a woodworker but has an unusual job.

Have a look here http://www.virginiacheeseman.co.uk

Mick


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## Eric The Viking (30 Jan 2011)

MickCheese":3qsrbwjq said:


> Had an interesting few hours today with my multimetre and a soldering iron. :roll:
> 
> Got two bells working just one more in the hall to go,



Well done! It's nice when it comes together.



> Off to email NASA now to see if they want their space station rewired.



They'll need someone to do the space shuttles: last I heard they were trawling eBay for old chips for the computers (well, very nearly): both craft use computer technology from the 1980s!

Of course, when you've done one, you'll have give it a test drive...

Cheers,

E.


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