# Newbie buying advice



## paul24dual (12 Jan 2014)

Hi everyone,

I've been using a handheld coping saw to cut basic shapes like fishes, hearts etc from pine. About 15-25mm thick, but its hard going and very time consuming. Would an electric scroll saw be better and can you recommend any?

Unfortunately my budget is about £100. I looked the Clarke CSS400B or the Dremal moto saw or the axminister hobby AWFS16.

Any advise would be great.

Thanks
Paul


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## martinka (12 Jan 2014)

Hi Paul,

You are probably going to be advised to save up for a few years and buy a Hegner. Personally I would prefer to try to recommend something that is actually within your budget. However, there's a second hand Hegner in the For Sale section of this forum for 175 quid, so I'd advise you sell your first born and put the proceeds to your 100 quid and buy that.

Recommending a budget scroll saw is difficult because there's so much rubbish around. I can only recommend the one I had which was a Jet JSS16, which Axminster also sell. It had its limitations but worked fine for me with a couple of little modifications. The same saw is sold under other brand names with slight differences. All come from China and any of them could be a bad one. Whatever you end up with, throw away the blades that come with it and buy decent blades.

The clamps for using pinless blades on the CS400B and AWFS16 are a pain to use and are known to break, so I would say steer clear of those two. I've never seen the Dremel one but I've read about it and I wouldn't recommend that either for anything other than very occasional light use. I wouldn't want to use it for anything as thick as 25mm.

There will be many occasional users out there who get along with the cheapest of scroll saws that do everything they ask, so I hope I haven't put you off too much. Best thing is to keep reading this and any other scrolling forums, and any books you can lay your hands on, until you decide exactly what you want from your saw. Take you time choosing and pick one that you will be happy with for a long time. 
(It'll be a Hegner) :mrgreen:

edit: One more thing, if you really must keep within your £100 budget, buy second hand from somewhere like ebay or Gumtree and you will save a lot of money for a hardly used saw.


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## heatherw (12 Jan 2014)

If it's to cut out basic shapes for furniture, hearts, clubs, ovals etc, I used a jigsaw for this purpose for several years with success. An electronic jigsaw is pleasanter to use because of the soft start, and a good one should be cheaper than a cheap scroll saw. You move the saw instead of the wood, so it's possible to manage larger workpieces.


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## Bryan Bennett (12 Jan 2014)

Hi Paul I endorse everything that Martin has said, a very warm welcome to the group and I hope that you will enjoy the posts on here.This is the place that you will get good advice. :roll: 

Bryan


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## boysie39 (12 Jan 2014)

Paul , Welcome I hope you enjoy your time on here ,they are a good lot and will help you all they can .

I would agree with what Martin has posted regarding scroll saws but if you are just cutting out the odd few designs , Heather's idea might be the cheapest way to go .


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## bodge (12 Jan 2014)

I recently bought a JSS-16 Jet from Axminster and while I am a complete newb to scrolling and have no benchmark to work from, I am currently very happy with it. Slightly over your budget, but I suspect worth the extra over the really basic models if you can muster it.
Best advice I can give is, as above really, follow this (and other!) forums, ask questions and don't expect too much from a budget saw and you will be fine. I spent a fair bit of time watching YouTube videos on how to set up the saw properly and most importantly, tension the blade and this in itself has made a HUGE difference. I really was amazed at the difference correct blade tension made.
Aside from that, welcome to the forums and enjoy your new hobby!


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## ChrisR (13 Jan 2014)

Hi Paul, welcome.

As other posts, Martin has given you sound advice. 

Take care.

Chris R.


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## paul24dual (13 Jan 2014)

Thanks for the reply guys and the warm welcome.

I’ve managed to find another £100 so takes my budget up to £200!! Before I go and purchase a lot of stuff, some more advice if you would.

I’ve bought a book called simple woodworking which as some really nice projects to make for beginners. The book as small shapes like fishes, hearts etc but there are some projects that have 4ft panels which need to be cut.

The book says I need the following
Hand Saw
Tenon Saw
Miter Saw
Coping Saw
Jigsaw

My main question really is do I need all those or would a scroll Saw do the job of all of the above. Or would you recommend some of the above and a scroll saw. *Or do i for now just buy a jigsaw.* Choices Choices!! (hammer) 

Thanks again
Paul


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## martinka (13 Jan 2014)

My knowledge of woodworking is limited to the little bit I know about scroll saws, but I can tell you that budget scroll saws are generally limited to cutting 16" in length, with the more expensive ones going up to around 24". Apparently it's possible to twist a blade 90 degrees, something I never tried, giving you unlimited cutting length, but your original 16" length limit then becomes a width limit.

I have a cheap jigsaw from Lidl, or somewhere similar, that I use for cutting larger stuff down to a manageable size. Does what I need but won't follow a line. I also bought a cheap hand saw but have never needed to use it, for which I am grateful.  

Sounds like you need to make a decision about whether you are going to stick to scroll saw work, or do more general woodwork, or both, as it will have a bearing on what tools you end up with.


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## paul24dual (13 Jan 2014)

Thanks for the reply. 

At the moment i want to do simple shapes like the fishes then progress up to more detailed stuff later. So i'm thinking a scroll saw would be a better investment.

So if that is the case and i have £200 to spend, Can you recommend one?

Cheers
Paul


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## martinka (13 Jan 2014)

paul24dual":16pvbzu9 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> At the moment i want to do simple shapes like the fishes then progress up to more detailed stuff later. So i'm thinking a scroll saw would be a better investment.
> 
> ...



There seems to be no middle ground for scroll saws, they are either cheap or expensive. As I said previously, the only one I can recommend in the budget range is the one I used, and which worked well for me. Others may prefer different models.

This is a personal opinion and others won't agree, but for me, there's two options. Buy a cheap second hand scroll saw that can take pinless blades and buy some good quality blades. make a decent table insert to replace the plastic one, recognise that the saw has limitations, and get cutting. If you are really interested you will persevere and make some good items on that cheap saw, and really any saw should be OK for cutting basic outlines. The problems start when you begin doing lots of internal cuts and need to change the blade often. I'd recommend the same model as the Jet JSS-16, whatever brand name it comes under.

Second option is if you want (probably) the best saw to start with, keep an eye out for a used Hegner, though you are likely to pay more than £200. If you decide you don't like scroll sawing, or don't like the Hegner, resell it, you won't lose any money on the deal.

Hopefully someone who has been at it much longer than me will come along with better advice.


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## paul24dual (13 Jan 2014)

martinka":1ug72l1j said:


> paul24dual":1ug72l1j said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the reply.
> ...



Again thanks for the reply, your a star. 

Can you recommend any decent blades and how did you make your table insert? Have you got any pictures?

Cheers


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## bodge (13 Jan 2014)

The general consensus seem to suggest Mikes Workshop has the best blades available, but he is based in the US so it may take a few extra days for delivery.
Have a browse around You Tube and look for videos on zero clearance inserts for table saws, the process for making a scroll saw table insert should be largely the same.


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## ChrisR (13 Jan 2014)

Paul.

Again , Martin has given good advice, so no need to add further, but a couple of web sites you may find interesting for scroll saw patterns are:-

http://www.scrollsawworkshop.blogspot.com =D> 

http://www.saw4fun.com

Scrollsaw workshop is highly recommended.

Take care.

Chris R.


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## martinka (13 Jan 2014)

I think most of the regulars on this forum use Flying Dutchman blades from mikesworkshop.com
It's in the USA but the blades are cheap enough, as is the postage, and generally take about a week to get here. the FD-UR blades seem to be the best at the moment. If you want to buy from the UK, ChrisR buys Niqua blades from the Hegner website. Niqua and FD blades come from the same manufacturer. The Hobbies website also sells blades. Olson blades are good too and have their own following, as do Pegas blades, but overall the FD blades tend to best thought of.

I actually made my table insert from aluminium on my lathe, but a wood or perspex one can easily be made by hand. It's just a round piece with a slot or a hole for the blade. Chances of having a piece of wood the correct thickness are small, so once it is in place, it needs sanding down to the level of the table. Another option, as I did on my Hegner, is to make an auxillary (hope that's the right word) table from plywood to go over the top of the original.

edit: I clicked send and came back 15 minutes later to find it was warning me that someone else had posted, so I clicked send again, and it did it again!. Stupid forum! :mrgreen:


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## paul24dual (13 Jan 2014)

martinka":338cuzy5 said:


> I think most of the regulars on this forum use Flying Dutchman blades from mikesworkshop.com
> It's in the USA but the blades are cheap enough, as is the postage, and generally take about a week to get here. the FD-UR blades seem to be the best at the moment. If you want to buy from the UK, ChrisR buys Niqua blades from the Hegner website. Niqua and FD blades come from the same manufacturer. The Hobbies website also sells blades. Olson blades are good too and have their own following, as do Pegas blades, but overall the FD blades tend to best thought of.
> 
> I actually made my table insert from aluminium on my lathe, but a wood or perspex one can easily be made by hand. It's just a round piece with a slot or a hole for the blade. Chances of having a piece of wood the correct thickness are small, so once it is in place, it needs sanding down to the level of the table. Another option, as I did on my Hegner, is to make an auxillary (hope that's the right word) table from plywood to go over the top of the original.
> ...



LOL!! Excuse my stupidness but why would you need to replace the table insert on the machine mentioned?


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## Chippygeoff (13 Jan 2014)

Just thought I would chip in here. I have a couple of inserts for a hegner saw. I did put them on here some time ago and had a guy that wanted them but then I could not find them again. Now I have moved they have surfaced again and they are sitting on my computer desk and wont move until someone wants them. One is the standard insert with the slot and the other is a blank so you can just have a small hole in it for very fine work.

I also have 2 blade clamps for an Excalibur saw if anyone wants them and also a Patrick Spielman book on everything you want to know about making jigsaws. Everything is free to a good home but would appreciate the cost of the postage.


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## JustBen (13 Jan 2014)

Hi Paul, welcome to the forum.

I just thought I would add my 2p.





Here is my saw. It cost £40 second hand and it's rubbish.
It vibrates like mad, it's cheap and nasty but.....
It works. It was a £40 gamble and it paid off. 
It showed me that I like scroll sawing and my next saw will be a Hegner/Excalibur.
All the stuff below has been made on this nasty saw.
I'm posting this to show that a £600 saw is not needed to create (what I think is) nice work.

I would recommend buying a cheap saw to see if you like it first. Hopefully you will get the bug and then move onto a better saw.
It will also give you time to work out what you like and need from said saw.

I hope this is helpful


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## powertools (13 Jan 2014)

JustBen":2ooskc4l said:


> Hi Paul, welcome to the forum.
> 
> I just thought I would add my 2p.
> 
> ...



At last a sensible answer to the orignal question.
If you are new to woodworking spend as little as you can and find out what you enjoy and what you are good at.


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## martinka (13 Jan 2014)

paul24dual":27p2ifrc said:


> martinka":27p2ifrc said:
> 
> 
> > I think most of the regulars on this forum use Flying Dutchman blades from mikesworkshop.com
> ...



The gap for the blade on most budget saws is quite wide leaving no support for cutting small items. As bodge says, do a search for zero clearance inserts. Old plastic cards seems to have been a favourite at one time.


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## paul24dual (13 Jan 2014)

So just to make sure i'm on the right track and to get me on my road to my woodworking discovery, can you suggest a list of basic tools. I want to be able to do simple projects like cutting out basic shapes like animals, hearts etc, then step up do shelfs, coat hangers etc. Then maybe discover more detailed scroll sawing later.

Here what i thought, so far. Can you add or suggest would be great

1. A Cheap scroll saw (to cut out shapes like animals, hearts etc) and to see if i get the buzz!!
2. Quick release clamps
3. Rasps/files/Sand block
4. Miter saw
5. Hand saw
6. Hand plane
7. Tri square and engineering square

Any further suggestions would be great.

p.s JB love the photos, they look great


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## Chippygeoff (13 Jan 2014)

In my workshop I have a couple of scroll saws, a drill press, a belt/disc sander. a router table, a dremel router and table. Several power sanders. A range of drum sanders for the drill press, a dewalt cross cut mitre saw, a dewalt cordless drill, a hand held router, power planer, 2 Henry's and a large vacuum extractor. I do scroll saw work on a professional basis in that everything I make I sell at craft fairs and for me speed is the name of the game.


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## M P Hales (13 Jan 2014)

Chippygeoff":33p3rhkv said:


> Just thought I would chip in here. I have a couple of inserts for a hegner saw. I did put them on here some time ago and had a guy that wanted them but then I could not find them again. Now I have moved they have surfaced again and they are sitting on my computer desk and wont move until someone wants them. One is the standard insert with the slot and the other is a blank so you can just have a small hole in it for very fine work.
> 
> I also have 2 blade clamps for an Excalibur saw if anyone wants them and also a Patrick Spielman book on everything you want to know about making jigsaws. Everything is free to a good home but would appreciate the cost of the postage.




PM sent
M


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## paul24dual (14 Jan 2014)

Thanks for all the advise guys. Much appreciated. I'm going on the lines of buying a cheap saw and see if i get hooked. And save for a quality one later.

i had a look on Ebay but there is no used one at the moment....

Any suggestions would be good.


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## Scrollerman (14 Jan 2014)

JustBen":llpu1ie0 said:


> Hi Paul, welcome to the forum.
> 
> I just thought I would add my 2p.
> 
> ...



That's very impressive work done on a budget scroll saw Ben and a cracking post from you which I'm sure will spur newcomers on. =D> =D>
I endorse your statement......*"I would recommend buying a cheap saw to see if you like it first. Hopefully you will get the bug and then move onto a better saw.
It will also give you time to work out what you like and need from said saw."*
Dipping your toe in the water is the sensible way to go as is the case for most new hobbies.


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## toesy (14 Jan 2014)

Other people replies are great advice, all I can say is this, I bought two of the Clarke ones, and both of them broke, by broke I mean the Tension Bolt is really poor and strips its thread, first one lasted 6mths, second one 3mths, still have them in the garage, but as someone has said, get a Hegner second hand you wont go wrong and some decent blades.

Or maybe it was me being new and tightening the blade to much, thinking back this was more than likely the case, if you live near the M6 Junc 6 - you can have one for free both have been repaired.


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## Scrollerman (14 Jan 2014)

toesy":3qpvu8qf said:


> Other people replies are great advice, all I can say is this, I bought two of the Clarke ones, and both of them broke, by broke I mean the Tension Bolt is really poor and strips its thread, first one lasted 6mths, second one 3mths, still have them in the garage, but as someone has said, get a Hegner second hand you wont go wrong and some decent blades.
> 
> Or maybe it was me being new and tightening the blade to much, thinking back this was more than likely the case, if you live near the M6 Junc 6 - you can have one for free both have been repaired.



Hi toesy and welcome to this forum,
I'm confused.....
If bought new, could you not get a refund or a replacement under guarantee on the first saw that broke after 6 months ?
Even a replacement that fails 3 months later still comes under a normal guarantee as the total for both is only 9 months (as far as my understanding goes).
If you bought them second-hand, why buy a second one if the first disappointed :?: 
I don't know that particular tension bolt but was it not an option to replace just the bolt instead of the whole machine ?

Hope you can understand my confusion.


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## toesy (14 Jan 2014)

Scrollerman":17lolljw said:


> toesy":17lolljw said:
> 
> 
> > Hi toesy and welcome to this forum,
> ...



Not at all, When the 1st one broke after 6mths, I kinda thought it was my fault. And gathered that I'd used it for six months a lot, plus I needed to complete some work over the weekend, so I just bought another one. When this one went also 3mths later, I ended up contacting Machine Mart, and they supplied FOC the tension bolts after a few phone calls.

And after that I just thought I'd invest in a decent Scroll Saw, the plan was to fix the two broken ones and sell them on fleabay or somewhere, but with two young children, I just don't seem to get enough time, to sleep..


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## Scrollerman (14 Jan 2014)

toesy":3kt1lkhg said:


> Scrollerman":3kt1lkhg said:
> 
> 
> > toesy":3kt1lkhg said:
> ...



I am still confused !
If you needed to complete orders 'over the weekend' you clearly bought another saw from *Machine Mart* as you go on to mention Machine Mart supplied FOC *bolts* which to me is plural. You also mention that *"both have been repaired"*confirming your statement of replacement *bolts* from Machine Mart.
Surely you could've/should've got a replacement from Machine Mart under the guarantee at that time of the weekend in question for the *first machine* instead of *buying another* which makes no sense at all as they clearly had a machine in stock for replacement but you bought another one instead of opting for the obvious replacement...why ?


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