# Converting Rough sawn boards by hand - Try Plane ?



## paulc (29 Jan 2007)

Hello Forum, 
Since beginning working with wood I've been truing up all the roughsawn boards I buy with a small stanley smoothing plane and loosing much bodyweight in the process as well as sometimes damaging the plane blade. 

I can't afford or accomodate a planer thicknesser, so what hand plane do I need , Is it a try plane ? if so , what size would be best and what make would you recommend? Also can the blades be sharpened on a average size waterstone (2 inches or so wide) or do I need to get a bigger one ? 

Just tidied garden shed/ workshop for first time , a lung full of dust ,but for the extra room , all of a half a foot all round , it was worth it.

Advice much appreciated as always, thanks a million.


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## Paul Chapman (30 Jan 2007)

Hi Paul,

I don't have a planer so I'm in the same position as you  If the boards are very rough, it's sometimes best to go over them first with a scrub plane - example here http://www.brimarc.com/home.php3?page=p ... c=C_106_39 These planes have a radiused blade that very quickly and aggressively removes wood. This will quickly, albeit roughly, bring the boards to a more presentable state. If you don't want to go to the expense of buying a scrub plane, it's possible to modify old wood or metal planes to turn them into a scrub plane. I use a modified metal plane that Alf converted and I bought from her - it works really well.

You can then use a normal plane. I prefer longer planes - #6 or #7 - but others have different preferences.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul

PS Alf's review here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5336 will give you a good idea of how scrub planes work.


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## MikeW (30 Jan 2007)

paulc":1tfzh50d said:


> ... so what hand plane do I need , Is it a try plane ? if so , what size would be best and what make would you recommend?


If you can borrow a copy of Cosman's Rough to Ready DVD, or Schwarz's Coarse, Medium, Fine DVD, watching them would pay off well. It's one thing to make recommendations, another to watch them in action.

Not always convenient, though. Perhaps a lending library of sorts would be possible here one day?

Ok. Here's how I do it--when I do so totally by hand. 

First, I cut all board to rough lengths and widths. This cuts down on how much work is involved.

I then make a judgement on which side will eventually be the viewed side, the show face. This may change, but for now I mark an arrow on the end of the board pointing to that face. And I place this side down on the bench.

If a board is in poor shape, I start with what would be called a Jr. Jack--about 12" in length. Until very recently, I had a Stanley #5 1/4 I had converted. Worked well. This Jr. Jack is simply a narrow Jack plane I cut down in length to about 12". It has a very open mouth and a heavily cambered blade.

I remove all the obvious high spots. Typically the plane is moving at a diagonal across the face of a board, to straight across. I remove obvious high spots before even pulling out the winding sticks--which half the time is simply two planes laid on the sides. Most often I have one at an end of the board which sits fairly flat on the bench. I often will mark spots with a crayon as I move one of the planes towards the other. Then I remove those high spots. 

I'll flip the board over and check how it sits on the bench--does it rock, can I see more high/low spots? If so, I raise it and mark those spots. Then I flatten some more until it sits without movement when flipped onto the side I am flattening. 

Then the next plane I typically use is what would be called a foreplane. Less camber. More lengthwise planing. Once that has worked its magic, then I either use what would be called a try or jointer plane, depending on the length of the board. If it is short enough, I may just use a foreplane which has even less camber to "pre-smooth" this surface.

From there, I leave that side alone and flip the board. I either gauge a line around the board using the lowest spot I find as the line I will flatten the second side to.

Once it is in the same shape as the first side, I decide which will really be the "show" side. That side I will use a smoother on. The other side I will also use a smoother on, but I am not trying to make it really fine.


paulc":1tfzh50d said:


> ... Also can the blades be sharpened on a average size waterstone (2 inches or so wide) or do I need to get a bigger one ?


That size stone should work for nearly any plane blade. If you encounter a wider blade, consider sharpening with the blade turned sideways to the stone, moving the blade lengthwise. You can sharpen nearly any width blade on nearly any stone this way.

Take care, Mike


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 Jan 2007)

> If you can borrow a copy of Cosman's Rough to Ready DVD, or Schwarz's Coarse, Medium, Fine DVD, watching them would pay off well. It's one thing to make recommendations, another to watch them in action.



While these would also be my first port of call, you are welcome to read my tutorial on scrub plane use: 

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/LVScrubPlane/index.asp

Mike wrote:


> Until very recently, I had a Stanley #5 1/4 I had converted.



You mean this one, for which I am the current curator?  







Incidentally, here it is next to the LV Scrub plane - same size:






Paul, once you have sorted out a scrub (and, as you can see from the above, you can either convert or purchase a plane), then move on to a jointer plane. Here is a comparison of the Stanley #7 and LV BU Jointer - different strokes for different folks!

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/LVBevelUpJointer/index.asp

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Philly (30 Jan 2007)

Some great advice there, Paul!
I have a wooden jack plane that I bought at a car boot sale for the princely sum of £1. I use this to remove the majority of the waste before using my other planes to flatten and smooth it. By having a heavily cambered blade you can quickly knock a board into shape.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Anonymous (30 Jan 2007)

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## woodbloke (30 Jan 2007)

Like Philly, I'd go for a 2" wooden jack plane as first weapon of choice as they're cheap as chips (ghastly expression) to buy and once sharp and correctly set up they are *very* effective - Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 Jan 2007)

> 5 1/2 Jack plane without a doubt. It was the "industrial standard" for this sort of work. Wouldn't bother with the fashionable "scrub" plane unless you are talking about very rough riven stuff - in which case you might think of an adze.



Jacob

While I may appear to be contradicting my earlier post, I do agree with your recommendation of a #5 1/2. This is certainly a Jack of all Trades and is at home as a scrub (I use one with a 3" radius edge for flattening really hard woods (its momentum is a wonderful thing), to jointing short boards (with a straight bevel edge), and some use it as a smoother. It does offer the biggest bang for a buck. For a rough sawn board all one needs is a moderately cambered blade. However, a true scrub plane is still an easier plane to use if the board is very misshapen, where you quickly want to remove a lot of waste. Some prefer a scrubs lightness, as I do when working with softer wood.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Anonymous (30 Jan 2007)

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## Paul Chapman (30 Jan 2007)

Philly":8fgluh3m said:


> Some great advice there, Paul!



Well it would be - I learned it from you  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Colin C (30 Jan 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":3ethqpg9 said:


> Derek
> Yes I can see the sense of scrub planes but I always feel a bit doubtful about them. Mainly cos I'd never even heard of one until I joined this forum, and they are not mentioned in any of my books ancient or modern. Adze gets mentioned often.
> No doubt if I had one I'd use it - if I had an adze I'd have a go with that too, and their functions appear to be similar.
> 
> ...



Hi Mr G

I have seen the back of antique furniture that has been taken down with a scrub plane and left rough.
I am not shore how long there here been used but they are not a new thing  

I have found that it is used more by people working on old furniture, like me :wink:


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## bugbear (30 Jan 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":ta897rs6 said:


> ...I'd never even heard of one[scrub plane] until I joined this forum, and they are not mentioned in any of my books ancient or modern. Adze gets mentioned often.



You won't see the name "scrub plane", but try looking in your books for "bismark" or "coarse jack" or "roughing jack".

You may be surprised 

BugBear (who's seen some splendid round bottomed cuts on the backs of old wardrobe at auction)


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## Anonymous (30 Jan 2007)

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## bugbear (30 Jan 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":2zxpcdh0 said:


> You are right; Joyce p.27 in "Miscellaneous planes" "for occasional use" "scrub-, rougher-, or Bismarck-plane". I hadn't spotted it. Not in a lot of other books though.
> I wasn't thinking it was new but rather that it was a revival, and that perhaps the adze was more generally used for very rough stuff, followed by a jack.



As discussed in various forums, (with various degrees of heat), it appears that prior to 1920 the name "scrub plane" was not commonly used.

However, there _were_ planes with gaping mouths and thick, heavily cambered blades, which went under various names, mostly including the word "jack".

There was (and in the modern era, is again) a whole spectrum of planes called "jack".

In the recent-modern era, we think of a jack as equivalent to a Bailey #5, and thus mis-interpret the older texts.

Some of the illustrations for the amount of camber on a "jack" blade in the 1900-1920's books are extreme by today's standards - probably full 1/8", revealing the usage of the tool.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (30 Jan 2007)

Hi Paul C

My prefernce is for a "scrub" type plane for taking down rough board's fast (useful for getting a spot of kindleing too a couple of hanful's of oak scrubbings soon gets the woodburner going!!)
I use a 14 inch jack with a cambered blade, its astonishing how fast and efficient it work's. Afterwards I use other 14 inch jack's with blades set to coarse, medium and fine cut's to refine my surface. I use the method similar to others have mentioned, get a good face side, then plane a good face edge at 90 degree's to it, then use the marking guage to scribe the desired width of the board from the face edge, plane to that line, them scribe the thickness of the board from the face side and plane to that.
I once had a baby little scrubbing plane was only about 5 inches long, but was spot on for doing chair seat blanks. Whatever plane you get try to get a thick blade in it with an applied finer quality steel to the edge.

Jacob I think the carpenter's axe is an under rated tool. I tend to get the feeling that traditionally the axe (side axe) and draw knifes (straight or curved) were used more frequently than an adze for roughing timbers (smallish ones at any rate). I may be wrong but I thought the adze was more used on large beams/balks etc eg house framers, boat builders, millwright's (have you seen that painting of constables boat builders on the stour?) One thing puzzles me why did they bother putting an adzed finish at all?? when you think of the extra time what benefit did it have??


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## paulc (31 Jan 2007)

Thanks for all the advice, 

As it happens when I first started this hobby a neighbour gave me an old wooden plane , its quite small - about 8 inches in length . its blade is somewat rusted -and not that thick- but it does have quite a large mouth, Could this be converted into a scrub plane ? Would I have to buy a grinder to shape the blade? or could I buy just the scrub blade and fit it.

Money is tight so I don't know if my third plane (have smoothing and block) should be a new scrub plane, and if not, what should be the next, a 5, 6, or 7?

Thanks again , woodwork is not the easiest thing to teach yourself , and this forum definitely outclasses the only woodwork class I ever took.


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## Chris Knight (31 Jan 2007)

Paul,

Just put a heavy camber on the blade and it should be fine. I modified a small smoother like this and it takes very thick, narrow shavings that soon get the thickness of a board reduced.


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## Paul Chapman (31 Jan 2007)

paulc":10ebliay said:


> its blade is somewat rusted



For scrub plane work the blade doesn't have to be in tip-top condition like it does on a normal plane. Clean the rust off and it will probably be OK. The blade on mine is a bit pitted but it doesn't affect its performance as a scrub plane blade.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (31 Jan 2007)

paulc":25w0b9sr said:


> Thanks for all the advice,
> 
> As it happens when I first started this hobby a neighbour gave me an old wooden plane , its quite small - about 8 inches in length . its blade is somewat rusted -and not that thick- but it does have quite a large mouth, Could this be converted into a scrub plane ?



Sounds like a coffin bodied smoother. It can be made into a scrub plane, but doing "scrub work" without a good comfortable handle is apt to generate blisters.

DAMHIKT

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswi ... 90#message

BugBear


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## bugbear (31 Jan 2007)

mr spanton":30bakkpn said:


> I use a 14 inch jack with a cambered blade, its astonishing how fast and efficient it work's. Afterwards I use other 14 inch jack's with blades set to coarse, medium and fine cut's to refine my surface.



Do these "other jacks" vary merely in depth of cut, or do they have differing degrees of camber as well?

BugBear


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## Anonymous (31 Jan 2007)

In Chris Schwartz's DVD, he makes the proposition that a scrub plane was not really a cabinet makers tool at all, but rather a site carpentry tool for taking the edges off boards. 
I followed his advice and got an old wooden Fore plane and use either that or a Record #6 with very cambered blade and deep cut. I use it at an angle to the grain and take diagonal cuts first in one direction along the board and then the other.

This all came for the DVD and works a treat


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## bugbear (31 Jan 2007)

Tony":3t66dna2 said:


> In Chris Schwartz's DVD, he makes the proposition that a scrub plane was not really a cabinet makers tool at all, but rather a site carpentry tool for taking the edges off boards.



IIRC he puts forwards little historic evidence other than the fact that it seems to work.

(brain cells fire)
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSch ... lanes1.asp

BugBear


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## Chris Knight (31 Jan 2007)

I have just acquired a copy of "Roman Woodworking" by Roger B. Ulrich - mention is made of planes that would clearly fall into the scrub category..


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## bugbear (1 Feb 2007)

waterhead37":3kwfkscd said:


> I have just acquired a copy of "Roman Woodworking" by Roger B. Ulrich - mention is made of planes that would clearly fall into the scrub category..



I would welcome any tit bits from that you care to post, or perhaps a review... ?

BugBear


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## Anonymous (1 Feb 2007)

bugbear":22ht6e43 said:


> Tony":22ht6e43 said:
> 
> 
> > In Chris Schwartz's DVD, he makes the proposition that a scrub plane was not really a cabinet makers tool at all, but rather a site carpentry tool for taking the edges off boards.
> ...



His 'eveidence' is gleaned from reading much on the subject and actually using the planes a lot. It seems to me that his argument that the scrub, being around the same size as a #4 (a smoother) is not best suited to flattening a board due to it's lack of length, holds true.
I have never used a scrub, so no experience to bring to it, but following his advice works for me


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## Chris Knight (1 Feb 2007)

Paul,
I have only just got the book and haven't yet read it but it looks very promising. The author is a professor of classics and thus well versed in the academic research necessary to produce such a book. He covers the waterfront from tools of the trade through joinery techniques, foundations, framing and walls, Flooring, Roofing and ceilings, interior woodwork, wheels, furniture and veneers.

The book looks a fairly easy read with an extensive glossary and bibliography. I had a quick peek at the bit on planes to say what I did above - it is plain (no pun intended!) that their tools were remarkably similar to our modern handtools. Their joinery too is instantly recognisable and very functional with a hint of Japanese about them - fairly complex keyed scarf joints for joining lengths of wood for example.

When I get around to reading it, I will try to say a bit more.


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## bugbear (1 Feb 2007)

Tony":24dhwn6x said:


> [
> His 'eveidence' is gleaned from reading much on the subject and actually using the planes a lot. It seems to me that his argument that the scrub, being around the same size as a #4 (a smoother) is not best suited to flattening a board due to it's lack of length, holds true.
> I have never used a scrub, so no experience to bring to it, but following his advice works for me



Yes, but all his reading gained him was a quote from the Stanley catalogue.

Otherwise, his reading was the "mysterious incident of the dog in the night". He found no evidence; in fact he found no references!

Clearly a short scrub is not suited to ACCURATE flattening of a board, but nobody has ever suggested that a scrub is a final flattening tool; it's a preliminary tool for badly out of true boards, where it's inaccuracy is allowable, and the short size (and low weight) helpful.

I suspect the answer to the lack of textual reference to "scrub planes" in the English literature is that English workers had (as Mr Spanton _has_) a graded range of "jack planes". I can say from experience that a "jack plane" with a gaping mouth, and thick cambered single iron moves shavings surpassing well.

BugBear


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## PaulO (1 Feb 2007)

My 1922 "Modern Cabinet Work" (click for Amazon link) book refers to a "Bismarck" or "Roughing plane" and the illustration shows a plane with a similar configuration to what is currently sold as a scrub plane.

The book says "a single iron plane for taking off the dirt and first rough surface of boards", a diagram is also shown showing the convex blade of what LN/Veritas refer to as a scrub plane.

It describes the process of planing boards as one of four parts:
1) Roughing up stuff with a "Bismarck" before marking out
2) Jack planing to reduce thickness
3) Try planing for finishing surfaces and edges perfectly straight
4) Smooth planing

So now I have found a reference that predates Chris Schwarz's Stanley catalogue, can we put his theory to bed? :wink:


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## Anonymous (1 Feb 2007)

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## Shivers (1 Feb 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":phzdlte6 said:


> 1922. Close to earlier practices such as pit sawing. I'd suggest that a scrub plane would be handy for hand rip-sawn or riven timber but redundant for more accurate machine sawn. That would account for it not featuring much as a significant item like the more widely used and long established adze.
> I'm well used to seeing adze marks - well I think that's what they are; a longish (6 to 12") shallow scoop about 2" wide just visible in the right light on the surface of beams and joists. I've not knowingly seen scrub plane marks, which I would expect to be similar but longer.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Think you'll find that most hollow marks are made from common old wooden jack or fore planes that have had the blade ground to a curve,at least this is what i was lead to believe during my making of refectory table tops,--we always had a few shop wooden planes around specifically for this purpose(no need to have a scrub plane) as all that was needed was a different blade profile.
What i should also add is that the soles of these planes had been very slightly curved so as to dig in on the high spots--you would then move on to another less curved profile--it actually made quite short work of what looked like hard going.The aim was to get the old hand planed look on the top with faint pitsaw marks showing through.
I remember working with an old korean guy who made his own planes/blades,--he would make a variety of plane bodies that all took the same blade(as metal was hard to get in old korea),i wonder if this applied to the old carpenters & joiners of yore.

regards.


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## MikeW (1 Feb 2007)

PaulO":231xti02 said:


> ...So now I have found a reference that predates Chris Schwarz's Stanley catalogue, can we put his theory to bed? :wink:


Well, actually Chris is a bit more savvy than that.

What he was specifically referencing is the Stanley scrub plane's intended or actual use. He would differentiate between Stanley's scrub and the use of heavily cambered blades for stock prep.

Using heavily cambered blades goes a long way back. IIRC, Moxon also describes using heavily cambered blades.

Take care, Mike


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## Anonymous (4 Feb 2007)

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## Anonymous (7 Feb 2007)

bugbear":3jdn9p3w said:


> mr spanton":3jdn9p3w said:
> 
> 
> > I use a 14 inch jack with a cambered blade, its astonishing how fast and efficient it work's. Afterwards I use other 14 inch jack's with blades set to coarse, medium and fine cut's to refine my surface.
> ...



Hi Bugbear  
I've been away in Birmingham for the last week or so and have only just caught up a bit with the thread's. 

My scrub blade is qite severe, about a 5inch radious?? A roll of gaffa tape would sit neatly on the same radius. The others are only very slightly curved, when I say fine medium coarse etc its just the depth of cut, they are easy to alter anyway. But just having one of each available just speed's things up. 

I concur with jacob with recyling varnished/painted boards etc, your down to clean wood FAST (too fast sometimes perhaps a lesser radiuos would work for a slightly less agressive stock renmoval?)

I dont see the scrub plane as a flattening tool, only to get through the saw mark's and other surface rubbish, and remove the worst high spot's/wind's etc, and get into clean wood fast. I sometimes use an axe first anyway, then a scrub plane if it is riven stock.


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## bugbear (7 Feb 2007)

mr spanton":34mbnwco said:


> bugbear":34mbnwco said:
> 
> 
> > mr spanton":34mbnwco said:
> ...



So (just to be utterly clear) you've got a jack body with a heavily cambered blade doing rough prep (i.e. heavy shavings verging on chips)?

BugBear


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## Anonymous (7 Feb 2007)

Thats about it, its mounted in a 15 inch jack body (unused old stock) from the 50's, not a marples, not sure what make??

If I set the blade to cut on the strong side, the shaving's do become more like small side axe chip's (small split's along the grain), but it is harder work. I like Jim Kingshot's description of a wood jack "takes shavings as thick as a soldier's belt" or something like that (dont recall if he was refering to one with a scrub blade, slight radious or square across??) As you say, for rough prep especially getting down through mobile bandsaw mark's on sawn oak planks etc, where theres lots of kerf like lines across the surface and you just want to get them away quickly as possible. I just move across the surface about an inch at a time similar motion to a metal shaping machine?? Then start work with the others, also sometimes a 22 inch jointer (a beauty, dont ask me what make though, I dont remember :roll: )
And like I said, a few handfull's of those coarse shavings make a great fire starter


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## bugbear (8 Feb 2007)

mr spanton":3nepqgki said:


> Thats about it, its mounted in a 15 inch jack body (unused old stock) from the 50's, not a marples, not sure what make??
> 
> If I set the blade to cut on the strong side, the shaving's do become more like small side axe chip's (small split's along the grain), but it is harder work. I like Jim Kingshot's description of a wood jack "takes shavings as thick as a soldier's belt" or something like that (dont recall if he was refering to one with a scrub blade, slight radious or square across??) As you say, for rough prep especially getting down through mobile bandsaw mark's on sawn oak planks etc, where theres lots of kerf like lines across the surface and you just want to get them away quickly as possible. I just move across the surface about an inch at a time similar motion to a metal shaping machine?? Then start work with the others, also sometimes a 22 inch jointer (a beauty, dont ask me what make though, I dont remember :roll: )
> And like I said, a few handfull's of those coarse shavings make a great fire starter



What direction are you making the strokes relative to the grain; I find with my pseuo-scrub that diagonal is easiest, and along the grain not good at all.

BugBear (who had photos at the lamented GIC)


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## Anonymous (8 Feb 2007)

Both depending on the character and grain of each board. I find diagonal easier for a heavier cut, but have to reduce the depth of cut to go parallele to the grain otherwise I stall in mid stroke :lol: :lol: I'm only concerned with getting _something like_ a flat surface with the scrub, the other plane's are for that. Much like a jcb driver with a wide bucket can quickly get a "level-ish" surface for a road or lawn etc by removing obvious humps, but there still needs to be fine adjustments with smaller tools eg shovels/rakes/wacker plate working to a datum line etc to get it properly level?


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## bugbear (8 Feb 2007)

mr spanton":27wzroxu said:


> Both depending on the character and grain of each board. I find diagonal easier for a heavier cut, but have to reduce the depth of cut to go parallele to the grain otherwise I stall in mid stroke :lol: :lol: I'm only concerned with getting _something like_ a flat surface with the scrub, the other plane's are for that. Much like a jcb driver with a wide bucket can quickly get a "level-ish" surface for a road or lawn etc by removing obvious humps, but there still needs to be fine adjustments with smaller tools eg shovels/rakes/wacker plate working to a datum line etc to get it properly level?



Absolutely agreed in all regards.

BugBear


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## paulc (9 Feb 2007)

smoothing, block, scrub, now which?

So I decided to convert the old wooden plane, (its body indeed is shaped like a coffin as I think bugbear suggested), into a makeshift scrub, and next I'm considering going for a Stanley no.6 Fore Plane from Axminster as its described as performing the dual purpose of "stock removal, as in the Jack, and also the truing up of edges or levelling of wide boards, as with the jointer or try plane" which sounds like what I need. 

Is this a good choice?, good make? , I have a stanley smoothing plane which has served fairly well, but as its my first plane I can't compare. Would be willing to go as far as £100 for something better, or less for something of the same quality. Any Ideas?


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## mr (9 Feb 2007)

paulc":2hlih4yr said:


> smoothing, block, scrub, now which?



An old Stanley no 7 from the bay. 

Mike


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