# Newcomer to Woodwork: Questions on projects and tools



## TheWizardofOdds (18 Feb 2013)

As a complete newcomer/beginner to Woodwork I've decided that I would like to go down the using hand tools only route.

My ultimate aim is to make furniture I think, such as bookcases, tables, anything really for around the house that would look good, save money and come with a satisfaction that I've made it myself.

I suppose my biggest problem is that I have no knowledge at all of DIY let alone Woodwork. I also will be starting with no tools to speak of.

My plan is to make a couple of sawhorses as my first project, and then move on to making my own bench. I see this as being very much a long game and am in absolutely no rush so I'd like to get the preparation right. 

My two main questions at the moment are:

1. Which sawhorse to make?

I have seen a couple of simple projects that use minimal tools, however, being big on aesthetics I've found a site that shows you how to make what the author describes as trestles from a japanese bench. Or words to that effect. I think they are very nice indeed and look like they'd last a long time. My concern is that it could well be beyond me to put together. As I said though, I'm in no rush. It takes as long as it takes. What do you think? 

http://makeprojects.com/Project/Workhorses/572/3

2. Which saw? :lol: 

I've read plenty about saws, from ripsaws to crosscut saws, tenon etc. It would appear that for my initial project or sooner or later I'd need possibly rip and crosscut. I'm thinking of going down the japanese route though. They seem well priced. What's peoples' experience of them? I understand that they cut on the backstroke and also that one saw can be used for both cuts? I can't remember the kit I'd need exactly to make the sawhorse I've highlighted but it involves learning how to make a mortise and tenon (?) would I need any additional saws?

I feel like I have so many questions to ask, but that's enough for just now. Any guidance/thoughts/advice would be much appreciated.


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## orchard (19 Feb 2013)

Welcome to the fold dude 
I'm a noob too, so not much use to you soz. Have you checked out Paul Sellers' blog/website? That seems to be apt, if you can't find it pm me and I'll post a url in the morn for you


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## orchard (19 Feb 2013)

Although they're based in Germany, check out www.fine-tools.com for kit. I like them.


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## AndyT (19 Feb 2013)

As a beginner you need tools which you know are going to work right - only when you have more experience you will understand when a tool is not performing as it should.

So, for sawing purposes I recommend you buy two cheap, widely available hardpoint saws. They will be properly sharp and reliable. You can concentrate on learning to use them. Don't buy the very cheapest Chinese rubbish but something like these - under £9 and £11 at B&Q:












They will be fine to get you started.

I would not suggest starting with Japanese style saws - for one thing, I think they will be a poor match with your desire to use saw horses, which are designed with western style saws in mind.

If you fancy trying to make some proper trad saw horses, then *Jacob's page* is a good guide - but you might need to have a bench first, so your first project might need to be something simpler!

Paul Sellers is quite good for showing beginners how to make things with only a few basic tools, though some of his ideas are a bit unusual.

A lot of diy books miss out on how to measure, mark out and size your work accurately. *Jeff Gorman's* site is good on this (and lots more besides).


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## marcros (19 Feb 2013)

if your plans are to ultimately make furniture, start with making a decent bench. You will need it, and it will give you some good practice on joints etc. It neednt take a great deal of time to construct- particularly if you bought planed timber, and laminated together boards to form the tenons/rebates for the front rail. Mine is a bit over engineered because I had a source of cheap ash- the plans only used 2" thick legs I think.

my bench, based on the chris schwarz English bench is in effect 2 tressles/2 legged saw horses, with a top rail front and back to connect them.

my-new-workbench-t59670.html?hilit=bench

it is tarted up with a few extras- a vice, few dog holes etc.


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## TheWizardofOdds (19 Feb 2013)

orchard":11xevyoj said:


> Welcome to the fold dude
> I'm a noob too, so not much use to you soz. Have you checked out Paul Sellers' blog/website? That seems to be apt, if you can't find it pm me and I'll post a url in the morn for you



Thanks for the welcome.

I've been to the Seller's site and I think it's going to be very helpful in the long run.Cheers.



orchard":11xevyoj said:


> Although they're based in Germany, check out http://www.fine-tools.com for kit. I like them.



Another good site there. I've seen another one on here in another thread from germany, if it's competitive I'd definitely buy from there.




AndyT":11xevyoj said:


> As a beginner you need tools which you know are going to work right - only when you have more experience you will understand when a tool is not performing as it should.
> 
> So, for sawing purposes I recommend you buy two cheap, widely available hardpoint saws. They will be properly sharp and reliable. You can concentrate on learning to use them. Don't buy the very cheapest Chinese rubbish but something like these - under £9 and £11 at B&Q:
> 
> ...



Excellent info there. Thanks. What are the saws that you've shown me? So I know when I go to B&Q, can't go wrong with those prices and I take your point about the japanese saws. Is one a rip/crosscut and the other a tenon?

I'll check out the Jeff Gorman site and saw horses. 



marcros":11xevyoj said:


> if your plans are to ultimately make furniture, start with making a decent bench. You will need it, and it will give you some good practice on joints etc. It neednt take a great deal of time to construct- particularly if you bought planed timber, and laminated together boards to form the tenons/rebates for the front rail. Mine is a bit over engineered because I had a source of cheap ash- the plans only used 2" thick legs I think.
> 
> my bench, based on the chris schwarz English bench is in effect 2 tressles/2 legged saw horses, with a top rail front and back to connect them.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I would be best making saw horses first before a bench though? I don't currently have a bench. Except a kids picnic one that is. :twisted:


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## AndyT (19 Feb 2013)

Both saws are mainly for crosscutting but will work (slowly) for ripping - if you ever need to. Unless you propose to start by buying whole boards (=slices of tree) you won't need a dedicated rip saw.


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## marcros (19 Feb 2013)

i didnt have any work surface when i made my bench, except a table saw. a workmate or similar would have been useful, and i couldnt have done it if the timber was not planed and thicknessed ready. Mortising was fun, but i managed. Once you have the 2 leg sections done, the rails make it free standing, and you have most of a bench made. My firedoor top just laid on the leg section for a few weeks whilst i did other bits to it. 

With a bit of thought, you could make the leg sections from 2 heavy duty saw horses with 3 legs each- 2 at the back, and the final one vertical at the front- rebated for the rail. These would then be freestanding enough to use as you construct the rest.

Dont slavishly follow a plan- think if it needs to be adapted to your needs. and check the hight is about right for you, particularly if you are going to incorporate them into your bench.

Saw horses are pretty useful though, so if you make one or two before your bench, you will find good use for them. I dont doubt that some good furniture has been made by somebody on here using a couple of saw horses and a sheet of something clamped on as a top.


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## morfa (19 Feb 2013)

If you've not got it yet, the difference is:

Rip - along the grain
Crosscut - across the grain

You'll need both styles. In fact a full set of saws seems to involve about 5/6. However you can get away with a lot less. I got Japanese saws for my first saws. These ones from www.workshopheaven.com are good:

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Gyo ... _Grip.html
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Gyo ... andle.html < not in stock at the moment tho 

As for sawhorses, I'd recommend a mix of a Black and Decker workmate and a sawhorse. I made one from the plans here:

http://www.woodshopdude.com/

It was fairly complex, but if you think about it and do things slowly and carefully it's hard to really muck it up. Of course I managed to muck it up, but thankfully, it all works ok and it's a good sawhorse. I went the folding route cause I don't have loads of space. Those Japanese ones look utterly lovely tho.

I'm currently building a bench and I'm doing all the planing ontop of that and a workmate, I have to sit on top of the wood to stop it from moving around. I'm building something similar to this:

http://picnicpark.org/keith/woodworking ... nch-ne.pdf
and this
http://paulsellers.com/series/building-a-workbench/ (videos here - http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulSellers ... ture=watch )

Personally as with anything, I'd keep it simple, especially at the start. Get a tool kit, buy a load of wood and get going. Again Paul Sellers site has a list of tools on his site, but you can get away with out buying loads I've found. Buying second hand tools is often a good way to get cheap/sensibly priced stuff. Alf has a list of second hand tool dealers on her site:

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/tooldealers.html

If not there's always the bay of e.


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## DTR (19 Feb 2013)

When I started, my workbench was my first project. I bought a cheap workmate and borrowed another, then built a bench top from prepared timber. Then the top went across the two workmates so I had a bench to build the leg assemblies on.


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## Cheshirechappie (19 Feb 2013)

A pair of saw-horses would make a pretty good, subsequently useful, first project. However, match the saw-horse to the type of saw you buy. Western saws (at any rate, the longer, backless variety), are best used on a saw-horse of about knee height. The makeprojects ones look more suited to use with Japanese-type saws, and they also look quite challenging as a first project - if you're new to DIY, mortice and tenon joints may not be the best first job. If you simplify the construction such that you just cut the wood to length and fix the parts together with screws, you'll get a finished, useful job much quicker.


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## lanemaux (19 Feb 2013)

Just to go on from AndyT's recommendation of Irwin hardpoint saws as a start point , if you have your heart set on "going Japanese " , Irwin also produce pull type saws in their line . Mine have been a hoot to use. Takes getting used to a different way of working , but they cut like mad with little effort once you get rolling.


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## Jacob (19 Feb 2013)

+1 for Paul Sellers (very practical) and simple (cheap) tools, not Japanese.
Those saw horses are a bit fussy and ornamental IMHO. I'd look at the simplest of these for instance.
Best source of info on design and construction is stuff itself. Look at all the furniture in your house and everywhere you can. Pull it apart (if no one is looking). By and large the real stuff is different in interesting ways, from what you read in books.

PS just noticed that Andy has put in a link to my saw horses http://owdman.co.uk/howto/howto2.htm
For a first effort I'd copy the basic design but just have butted an/or lap joints and nails/screws. Keep it simple!


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## TheWizardofOdds (20 Feb 2013)

AndyT":1cqvgbax said:


> Both saws are mainly for crosscutting but will work (slowly) for ripping - if you ever need to. Unless you propose to start by buying whole boards (=slices of tree) you won't need a dedicated rip saw.



They'll do me fine, great price too.



marcros":1cqvgbax said:


> i didnt have any work surface when i made my bench, except a table saw. a workmate or similar would have been useful, and i couldnt have done it if the timber was not planed and thicknessed ready. Mortising was fun, but i managed. Once you have the 2 leg sections done, the rails make it free standing, and you have most of a bench made. My firedoor top just laid on the leg section for a few weeks whilst i did other bits to it.
> 
> With a bit of thought, you could make the leg sections from 2 heavy duty saw horses with 3 legs each- 2 at the back, and the final one vertical at the front- rebated for the rail. These would then be freestanding enough to use as you construct the rest.
> 
> ...



I take your point about following plans, I may need to adapt things as I go along.

Can you buy wood already thicknessed generally? I can see me having a hell of a time with that using a plane.



morfa":1cqvgbax said:


> If you've not got it yet, the difference is:
> 
> Rip - along the grain
> Crosscut - across the grain
> ...



Some great info there, thanks very much. I was thinking about the japanese saws to try and save some money but the saws from B&Q are very well priced so I might try those and see how I get on. I can see me coming back to try the japanese stuff in the future. I love most things japanese, they have an eye for detail. The japanese style saw horses are something else, I would love to say I have made something like that but I've a feeling it might be a step too far for me at the moment.



DTR":1cqvgbax said:


> When I started, my workbench was my first project. I bought a cheap workmate and borrowed another, then built a bench top from prepared timber. Then the top went across the two workmates so I had a bench to build the leg assemblies on.



I would like to build a bench early on but do have reservations simply because I've never made anything and it's quite daunting when you have no teacher. Plenty of great sources of information on here and in books but nothing beats face to face advice. I'm going to try and make the saw horses and then put something on top to try and give me a stable surface to begin the bench. I'd like to get the Workmates too but I have to tight a budget and will have to do without.



Cheshirechappie":1cqvgbax said:


> A pair of saw-horses would make a pretty good, subsequently useful, first project. However, match the saw-horse to the type of saw you buy. Western saws (at any rate, the longer, backless variety), are best used on a saw-horse of about knee height. The makeprojects ones look more suited to use with Japanese-type saws, and they also look quite challenging as a first project - if you're new to DIY, mortice and tenon joints may not be the best first job. If you simplify the construction such that you just cut the wood to length and fix the parts together with screws, you'll get a finished, useful job much quicker.



I think that's the way to go. My heart says make the japanese ones and then pull up a chair, drink a beer, and just admire the beauty of them!...but my head says make a pair of simple ones and crack on with the bench. 



lanemaux":1cqvgbax said:


> Just to go on from AndyT's recommendation of Irwin hardpoint saws as a start point , if you have your heart set on "going Japanese " , Irwin also produce pull type saws in their line . Mine have been a hoot to use. Takes getting used to a different way of working , but they cut like mad with little effort once you get rolling.



As I mentioned earlier in this post, I think I'll go with the Irwin numbers first and then come back to the japanese ones one day. oh decisions... :? 



Jacob":1cqvgbax said:


> +1 for Paul Sellers (very practical) and simple (cheap) tools, not Japanese.
> Those saw horses are a bit fussy and ornamental IMHO. I'd look at the simplest of these for instance.
> Best source of info on design and construction is stuff itself. Look at all the furniture in your house and everywhere you can. Pull it apart (if no one is looking). By and large the real stuff is different in interesting ways, from what you read in books.
> 
> ...



I have definitely started to look more closely at furniture and any wooden constructions I see in general much more closely. 

Paul Sellers is certainly admired and ot's not difficult to see why. I'm going to spend a lot of time today on his site and draw up a list of essential tools.


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## bugbear (20 Feb 2013)

If you can get hold of it, Roy Underhill on the the legendary Woodwright's Shop showed the making of a really elegant and simple saw horse.

In order to avoid the ridiculous maths of compound angles, the first housing in the body was used as a template, marking out the cuts for both the top (obvious) and bottom of all the legs (each leg was installed upside down, and the compound cut needed so it hit the floor flush was done).

BugBear


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## gomeraman (22 Feb 2013)

My first job would be (and was many years ago) to make a sturdy bench out of sawn stock timber. This gives lots of practice at square cross-cutting with a hard-point saw and then planing of the top surface. Don't use thin timbers but big beefy chunks that are bolted together so the whole thing can be easily dismantled when you move. A heavy work bench will give you much more control when doing finer jobs later on than the silly flimsy things sold in most shops that move when you tighten the vice or make a joint with a chisel (most DIY plans you'll find are like this too, and much more elaborate than you need). So use the motto "Thick is bright, thin is dim".


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## cadders75 (23 Feb 2013)

I agree with buying the standard hardpoint saws, I've got 3 with differing tooth sizes, however the Irwin Tenon saw I have is rubbish, it will not cut straight and just seems to be a difficult to use piece of kit, the finish it leaves is also bloody awful leaving a lot more work to clean up any tenons, the Bahco Gents saw is the same

I have 3 Japanese pull saws that I use for small scale work, and some ripping. I got the initial Shark saws from a bargain bin in B&Poo and I've brought a set of 3 from Rutlands if you want to try one on the cheap try this one from Toolstation. They are harder to master but once you do I find them a lot easier to use than a tenon saw, finish is much better too.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+To ... d70/p17458

My 1st bench was a couple of simple trestles like Jacobs and a ladder frame made out of 2x4 covered in cheap Shutter ply with a hardboard top, it's still alive now after 5 years of being used as an outside workstation left out in all weathers, mind you the hardboard is long gone by now.


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## TheWizardofOdds (25 Feb 2013)

bugbear":s2lm17yb said:


> If you can get hold of it, Roy Underhill on the the legendary Woodwright's Shop showed the making of a really elegant and simple saw horse.
> In order to avoid the ridiculous maths of compound angles, the first housing in the body was used as a template, marking out the cuts for both the top (obvious) and bottom of all the legs (each leg was installed upside down, and the compound cut needed so it hit the floor flush was done). BugBear



I've taken a look at that, it's very nice indeed. I've seen the plans but not the show, I'll try to get the show. You can't beat seeing it done, plans intimidate me! :? 



gomeraman":s2lm17yb said:


> My first job would be (and was many years ago) to make a sturdy bench out of sawn stock timber. This gives lots of practice at square cross-cutting with a hard-point saw and then planing of the top surface. Don't use thin timbers but big beefy chunks that are bolted together so the whole thing can be easily dismantled when you move. A heavy work bench will give you much more control when doing finer jobs later on than the silly flimsy things sold in most shops that move when you tighten the vice or make a joint with a chisel (most DIY plans you'll find are like this too, and much more elaborate than you need). So use the motto "Thick is bright, thin is dim".



That's a good point. I've moved four times in less than three years. Also, It would be easy to get the timber uniform and ready to go but there is definately a lot for me to learn in the actual preparation. I don't know if I'd trust myself though to plane even close to level initially.



cadders75":s2lm17yb said:


> I agree with buying the standard hardpoint saws, I've got 3 with differing tooth sizes, however the Irwin Tenon saw I have is rubbish, it will not cut straight and just seems to be a difficult to use piece of kit, the finish it leaves is also bloody awful leaving a lot more work to clean up any tenons, the Bahco Gents saw is the same
> 
> I have 3 Japanese pull saws that I use for small scale work, and some ripping. I got the initial Shark saws from a bargain bin in B&Poo and I've brought a set of 3 from Rutlands if you want to try one on the cheap try this one from Toolstation. They are harder to master but once you do I find them a lot easier to use than a tenon saw, finish is much better too.
> 
> ...



So what hardpoint saws do you use? I've heard as many good reviews for both western and japanese saws as I have bad.


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## TheWizardofOdds (25 Feb 2013)

http://woodworking.about.com/od/shopequipmentsupplies/ss/woodSawhorses.htm

I've more or less decided to go with making these stackable sawhorses as my first project. It's as simple a build as I can get, is of course space saving and although I love those japanese numbers I think I could get an approximation of these together. This year. :lol: 

I had a look online at the usual hardware stores that sell timber just to see what was what with types of wood and price. Now maybe it's me being thick but I couldn't find eight feet two by four? The timber is cut into forty nine and forty seven inch pieces so thats no big deal but no two by four? My aim is to get the wood from a local saw mill if they'll sell small amounts of wood to non trade anyway. 

So the thinking is to get the saw horses together then chuck a big bit of wood on top and get started on making a workbench. Man, there are a lot of nice benches out there. One thing at a time I suppose. I could just spend the rest of my days happily making benches. 

I know that there are certain things that I don't have to spend the world on like tape measures and rulers for instance. So I don't have to agonize over every purchase but some things have to be done right don't they? From what I can gather the likes of planes, chisels and saws should be the best you can stretch to. 

I'm not going to get into the whole which chisel should I buy dilemma? But I will ask, Is it better to buy say a set of four like 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1" chisels at sixty quid or buy one sexy 1/2 " at sixty quid and add to that when I can?


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## Jacob (26 Feb 2013)

TheWizardofOdds":1k88ccz7 said:


> .......Now maybe it's me being thick but I couldn't find eight feet two by four? The timber is cut into forty nine and forty seven inch pieces so thats no big deal but no two by four? My aim is to get the wood from a local saw mill if they'll sell small amounts of wood to non trade anyway.


Just buy a few lengths of 2x4 structural timber from a builders merchant, for your saw horses. Cheapest so doesn't matter too much if you get it wrong. Always buy much more than you need then you have some leftover bits to fiddle about with.


> .....
> I'm not going to get into the whole which chisel should I buy dilemma? But I will ask, Is it better to buy say a set of four like 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1" chisels at sixty quid or buy one sexy 1/2 " at sixty quid and add to that when I can?


Buy cheapies or second hand - you don't get much more for the money if you buy expensive ones. Those four sizes are good, doesn't have to be a set. I bought a £15 set of 6 from Axminster* and there is nothing wrong with them, except they don't look very nice.

NB don't go japanese - the tools are expensive and saws are unsharpenable- for enthusiasts only!

PS* I see they've gone up a bit. Still cheap. There are cheaper available. 2nd hand chisels are often only £2 or so on ebay. Spend the money you save on wood - that's the important bit, any old tools will do (within reason).


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## AndyT (26 Feb 2013)

Just to clarify if you are looking at buying timber from Wickes, B&Q etc. (Apologies to the experts if I over-simplifying here.)
Softwood in the UK is sold in metric measurements but the standard sizes available cling to some of the old inch sizes and are still colloquially called by their inch sizes. Go to a timber merchant and ask for 2 x 4 and they'll know what you mean; look at a website and it won't.

Inch sizes are approximately the size the wood was when it was sawn. Planing it smooth removes some wood, but it will still be known by the size it started. 

So your 2 x 4 won't be 51mm x 102mm after it's planed, it will be something like 44mm x 94mm.

The DIY stores will describe it that way - they don't want confused customers complaining that it's undersized!

Lengths fall into standard sizes based on a 300mm module, so for an 8 foot length, look for 2.4m.


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## gedwood (26 Feb 2013)

Welcome to the wonderful world of wood. When buying tools buy the best you can afford. Cheap tool can be dangerous and will not maintain a sharp edge for very long. Most people who come on these sites are normally very helpful. read read and read some more There are loads of books dvds and monthly mags that will help you. Visit woodworking shows they go on all year around the country _You can watch the experts at work and ask questions. But above all remember the absolute golden rules of woodwork ALWAYS HAVE YOUR HAND/FINGERS BEHIND THE BLADE. 2. MEASURE TWICE CUT ONCE. 3. A DULL BLADE IS A DANGEROUS BLADE.-Good luck but most of all enjoy yourself GEDWOOD.


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## Jacob (26 Feb 2013)

gedwood":215qikdx said:


> .............. Cheap tools can be dangerous


No they can't! How could they be?


> and will not maintain a sharp edge for very long.


Surprisingly many do. But in any case a bit of sharpening practice is good for a beginner! The problem with cheap tools is rarely the steel itself, it's more to do with design and build quality, especially the complicated ones like planes.
Don't go mad on posh tools and don't forget to buy some wood!


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## cadders75 (26 Feb 2013)

Jacob":n99170xm said:


> gedwood":n99170xm said:
> 
> 
> > .............. Cheap tools can be dangerous
> ...



Or a complete beginner could spend ages dicking around trying to make tools he doesn't understand, work in a way they should do, Which is a lot harder when you have probably never sharpened a set of chisels or even used them in anger before. Better to buy a reasonable new (not LNs or AIs yet) set and learn on those, that way you spend more time working with wood and less time working on your tools.

The Narex set for £45 for 6 from Workshop heaven seem a good starter set, they are of a known decent quality and cheap for a decent tool, but just buying a couple of individual chisels may well be a better way to start.

Buying second hand chisels as a starter can be an exercise in frustration, because you don't know what to avoid and you don't know what is desirable in a second hand tool. Buy a set new (my 1st set were a Bahco set £20 for 3) and an eclipse jig to sharpen them, as you get used to how they work and how to keep them sharp you can start to get an understanding of what you want in a tool, which makes it easier to buy 2nd hand tools, I personally don't think it's worth the hassle of buying 2nd hand chisels to be honest you spend ages getting them to work properly pick a brand you like and buy one a month till you have as many as you desire.

If you see one of the chisel sets from Aldi, snap those up as they seem to be good steel I've been using a set for years as paring chisels, they seem to keep an edge well, the handles would be uncomfortable for anyone with small hands mind.

2nd hand Planes are a good idea however, a number Record or Stanley 5 or 5 1/2 is ideal if you can get one and if you have the confidence to sharpen the blade and set it up. If not don't be tempted by cheap knock offs (anants, Silverline or modern stanley Handymans) as they are rubbish and they will discourage you when you get poor results.

Jacobs points are good when you have developed an initial set of skills and some understanding of what you want or need to have in terms of tools, but start with a reasonable set of new gear and you will find it easier to progress to 2nd hand tools later wasting less time and money in the long run.

I use standard hardpoint Saws for big cuts and Japanese saws for any fine work, You will invariably end up buying several kinds of saws till you find one you like. For a starter I'd stay away from saws you can sharpen until you have built up a better set of skills.


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## barkwindjammer (26 Feb 2013)

The answer is in Jacobs signature (IMHO)
"it's not about the tools"

Its about technique, - in laymans terms -the more you fanny about with wood of different types-the more you will learn ! :wink:


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## TheWizardofOdds (27 Feb 2013)

Jacob":3gjqqjc0 said:


> TheWizardofOdds":3gjqqjc0 said:
> 
> 
> > .......Now maybe it's me being thick but I couldn't find eight feet two by four? The timber is cut into forty nine and forty seven inch pieces so thats no big deal but no two by four? My aim is to get the wood from a local saw mill if they'll sell small amounts of wood to non trade anyway.
> ...



It's nice to hear that I don't have to spend a fortune on tools, and i've decided to leave the japanese tools alone at least until I have an idea of what I'm doing.



AndyT":3gjqqjc0 said:


> Just to clarify if you are looking at buying timber from Wickes, B&Q etc. (Apologies to the experts if I over-simplifying here.)
> Softwood in the UK is sold in metric measurements but the standard sizes available cling to some of the old inch sizes and are still colloquially called by their inch sizes. Go to a timber merchant and ask for 2 x 4 and they'll know what you mean; look at a website and it won't.
> 
> Inch sizes are approximately the size the wood was when it was sawn. Planing it smooth removes some wood, but it will still be known by the size it started.
> ...



I see. It's not that great for novices, If I'm following a plan and it says use cuts this or that size and in reality the wood I buy is not that size, what good is the plan?

My god, I'd have to think for myself. :lol: 



gedwood":3gjqqjc0 said:


> Welcome to the wonderful world of wood. When buying tools buy the best you can afford. Cheap tool can be dangerous and will not maintain a sharp edge for very long. Most people who come on these sites are normally very helpful. read read and read some more There are loads of books dvds and monthly mags that will help you. Visit woodworking shows they go on all year around the country _You can watch the experts at work and ask questions. But above all remember the absolute golden rules of woodwork ALWAYS HAVE YOUR HAND/FINGERS BEHIND THE BLADE. 2. MEASURE TWICE CUT ONCE. 3. A DULL BLADE IS A DANGEROUS BLADE.-Good luck but most of all enjoy yourself GEDWOOD.



Thanks, good advice. It's not always easy to discern what you can afford though is it?  



Jacob":3gjqqjc0 said:


> ...Don't go mad on posh tools and don't forget to buy some wood!



Heheh. I can see how easy it would be to spend money on posh tools! Some of them really are beautiful objects in themselves.



cadders75":3gjqqjc0 said:


> ...Or a complete beginner could spend ages dicking around trying to make tools he doesn't understand, work in a way they should do, Which is a lot harder when you have probably never sharpened a set of chisels or even used them in anger before. Better to buy a reasonable new (not LNs or AIs yet) set and learn on those, that way you spend more time working with wood and less time working on your tools.
> 
> The Narex set for £45 for 6 from Workshop heaven seem a good starter set, they are of a known decent quality and cheap for a decent tool, but just buying a couple of individual chisels may well be a better way to start.
> 
> ...



I agree. I think weighing it all up that buying new is the only way for me to go until I understand more of what makes a good second hand tool. I might go with the Narex chisels or just buy a single chisel to start me off, I haven't really decided on that one yet. 

If I'm going seconhand it will be a plane. I have The Essential Woodworker in my arsenal now and I think I could follow the instructions for setting up the plane etc. It's a lovely book, It is still going to be hard work following the instructions as it gets quite meaty early on in the book. I was expecting it to be much more simple. For most people it is, I just wasn't expecting to be stripping planes early on. :? 



barkwindjammer":3gjqqjc0 said:


> The answer is in Jacobs signature (IMHO)
> "it's not about the tools"
> 
> Its about technique, - in laymans terms -the more you fanny about with wood of different types-the more you will learn ! :wink:



Again, good advice. It's easy to get bogged down in the whole which tool to buy business but essentially it comes down to application and perseverance. 

I will fanny about. It's what I do best. :-k


----------



## Cheshirechappie (27 Feb 2013)

On the subject of 'The Essential Woodworker', stripping planes and getting them to make shavings (and flat, smooth bits of wood!) - don't panic!

I usually find that when learning from a book, I read the instructions, think I've understood them, go to it and get confused or make a right mess. Go back to book, read again - and suddenly, the bits that didn't make sense start to, as you now have a bit of (admittedly poor) experience to build on.

So - read, pile in and fail to make shavings, read again, pile in and make some shavings, read again, pile in and it'll start to make sense. It WILL start to come together, but it's a bit like learning to ride a bike - you fall off a time or two. Once it clicks, it's there for life.


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## GazPal (28 Feb 2013)

Cheshirechappie":2o0vwghc said:


> So - read, pile in and fail to make shavings, read again, pile in and make some shavings, read again, pile in and it'll start to make sense. It WILL start to come together, but it's a bit like learning to ride a bike - you fall off a time or two. Once it clicks, it's there for life.



Never a truer word written or spoken. :wink: 

------------

In the event of building a toolkit from scratch, I'd suggest creating a shortlist of a basic set of tools to get you started and from which you can easily expand - if necessary - while leaving sufficient funds in the kitty for materials. You'll find suggestions ranging from second-hand, to budget, to top of the line pieces of kit, but the only person capable of making the final decisions is yourself.

A starter kit could include;

1. Handsaw - Irwin "Jack"
2. Tenon Saw - Irwin "Jack" 300mm
3. 16oz or 20oz Claw Hammer
4. 12oz Cross Pein Hammer
5. Set of 4 Bevel Edged Chisels - e.g. Stanley "5002". They take a respectable edge and whilst not super hard edged, they are extremely tough and capable of serving a lifetime of use.
6. Mallet 5" - 
7. Combination Oil Stone - India 8"x2"
8. Screwdrivers - A selection of drivers that are comfortable in your hand.
9. Brace and set of bits (Incl. Countersink)
10. Combination Square - 12" Stanley or Bahco 
12. Mortise Gauge
13. #04 Smoothing Plane
14. #05 Jack Plane
15. #09.1/2 Block Plane
16. Bradawl

All of the above can be picked up secondhand or brand new, but I'd definitely hesitate in recommending highly priced and prized Veritas, Lie-Nielsen, or Clifton handplanes unless you know you're in for the long run and can justify the cost. Match the tools you buy to the work you'll be undertaking.

17. 1/2" & 1/8" Plywood, plus hardware to make a joiner's toolbox for your tools.
18. A variety of clamps - "sash" & "f" clamps suited to the size of work you'll be undertaking.
19. Tape Measure - 3m

Follow Paul Sellers' guidelines and Jacob's saw horse layout and you'll seldom go far wrong. :wink:


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## TheWizardofOdds (1 Mar 2013)

Cheshirechappie":3m28wb7n said:


> On the subject of 'The Essential Woodworker', stripping planes and getting them to make shavings (and flat, smooth bits of wood!) - don't panic!
> 
> I usually find that when learning from a book, I read the instructions, think I've understood them, go to it and get confused or make a right mess. Go back to book, read again - and suddenly, the bits that didn't make sense start to, as you now have a bit of (admittedly poor) experience to build on.
> 
> So - read, pile in and fail to make shavings, read again, pile in and make some shavings, read again, pile in and it'll start to make sense. It WILL start to come together, but it's a bit like learning to ride a bike - you fall off a time or two. Once it clicks, it's there for life.



Thanks. I'm glad to hear somebody elses' thoughts on learning from a book. One thing I will do is persevere. I'm in it for the long run so I don't mind at all making a hash of it, it'll just make it all the sweeter when something comes together.



GazPal":3m28wb7n said:


> Cheshirechappie":3m28wb7n said:
> 
> 
> > So - read, pile in and fail to make shavings, read again, pile in and make some shavings, read again, pile in and it'll start to make sense. It WILL start to come together, but it's a bit like learning to ride a bike - you fall off a time or two. Once it clicks, it's there for life.
> ...



Thanks for that. I've got a list on the PC of tools/equipment I think I'll need. It's really good to see someone elses' idea of a basic toolkit. I'm not too far off. I'm definitely not going crazy. Most of that list can be done on a very reasonable budget. It might take me a while to get there but I would like to have a reasonable kit together to get started. I won't be going anywhere near the Lie Nielsen, Veritas stuff. I'd like to get hold of a Record plane/s and use those with my Wearing book to learn the basics of stripping the plane and learning how it all goes together/sharpening etc. Hopefully I can have other projects to keep me going that require only the other tools listed.


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## Jacob (1 Mar 2013)

My list very similar to Gazpal.
This is what I was given when I was released:

Kit issued for Tops courses in carpentry and joinery 1982, with which you can just about everything!

1 toolbox - made your own, week 5.
5 1/2 Record jack plane
Sanderson & Kayser:
26" hand saw 6tpi
22" panel saw 10tpi
14" tenon saw 14tpi
3 Marples firmer chisels 1" 3/4" 1/2" 
Rabone Combination square
Whitehill 24oz claw hammer
Nail pullers (Footprint)
sliding bevel (poor quality)
double sided oil stone - box made week 6
big screwdriver
little ratchet screwdriver
2 ft boxwood rule
nail punch
brace & bit
one 32mm bit for yale locks.
mallet
S&J carpenters axe
marking guage
bradawl
brass face marples spirit level
plumb bob
cork sanding block
pencils
coping saw

The first add ons would be block plane (stanley 220), tape measure, a few more chisels, mortice gauge, and so on.

Still got them all except the hammer which broke and ratchet SD wore out.


----------



## nicguthrie (1 Mar 2013)

I'm pretty new myself, so to welcome you to the world of woodwork seems like getting above my station!  I don't want to seem combative to the rest of the community, but thought you got a little stomped in your choices back there, so I'm breaking my usual habit of lurking to comment 

I've had the privilege of an experienced friend to lend a hand in learning my way, and there's heaps of things he's pointed out to me that have been very handy and probably a helluvva lot more to learn before I consider myself competent.

A main one is that another person's best tool for a job is not necessarily yours. Some would use a router and jig where someone else would use a saw and a plane, others insist one hand tool should be used where you find another is easier. It's a personal thing, if you find you work best with one method, do what feels right and most efficient and enjoyable.

You originally said you fancied Japanese saws, and sort of got discouraged from it. I love Japanese saws (as does my "mentor"), and I get better, more accurate cuts with them than any other hand saw. I'd not built up a habit or a "feel" for "normal" saws before starting, so there was no disadvantage there, and being lighter and usually a lot thinner in the blade, they push thru the wood with less effort - helps me a lot with the fact I have serious joint troubles. You may get a faster, more agressive cut with european style saws, but they all cut wood. If you like to use a particular type, opinions are opinions, use what you feel best with.

Just my tuppence worth. I'll go back to lurking now.


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## Jacob (1 Mar 2013)

Trouble with Jap saws is they are expensive but not sharpenable, so will cost a lot in the long run. Fashions come and go. You might as well by western hardpoints which will cut just as well but are a lot cheaper. In fact many of them have a Jap style of tooth.


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## Harbo (1 Mar 2013)

Jap saws start at £8 or so - hardly expensive?
I have yet to wear one out and the blades are sold separately.

Rod


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## Jacob (1 Mar 2013)

Harbo":2ku8hxsz said:


> Jap saws start at £8 or so - hardly expensive?


Which ones are they? They all seem to be anything from £20 upwards, which is a lot for a throwaway saw.


> I have yet to wear one out and the blades are sold separately.
> 
> Rod


Unfortunately the handle is the cheap bit!


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## GazPal (2 Mar 2013)

Jacob":34cri6n1 said:


> My list very similar to Gazpal.
> This is what I was given when I was released:
> 
> Kit issued for Tops courses in carpentry and joinery 1982, with which you can just about everything!
> ...



My first kit is much closer to yours than the one I listed and is still intact apart from my 22oz Stanley claw hammer which I replaced with a Stanley Steel Master and then Estwing. My hand saws of choice was the Spear & Jackson "88" lineup - which later changed title to it's "Professional" range - although I have a pretty decent selection of Disston and Sandvik saws too.  

------------

It always pays to start off with a basic kit from which you can build as you begin to specialise in various types of project. An informed selection made using Jacob's and my lists should set you up very well and I think you're doing the right thing by avoiding the risk of over investing in the more expensive tools that are available today. They can always be included in your wish list and you'll still own a very respectable selection of tools without them.  

My recommendations for initial projects would be;

1. Saw Horse x 2
2. Tool box
3. Workbench

The above three projects include and involve most of the joints and woodworking exercises necessary in future projects and are excellent practise pieces on which you can hone your skills.


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## jimi43 (2 Mar 2013)

As the Spring comes you will find you want to get out an start making shavings and there is nothing more satisfying than making the next thing for the workshop to help you on your way. Saw horses are really useful but the (older type) Workmate is something I still use when I want to be out in the air and cut something up. I have three really original ones...bootfair jobbies...about a tenner each and they have been worth their weight in gold.

I built my workshop using these...I made my first bench cutting some serious heavy oak on these and I still use them for the odd job in the summer...last time to restore an old lawnmower.

Learn to sharpen..as Jacob says...stay simple and don't aim for razor sharp..just get a good oilstone like a Norton and some old chisels from a bootfair and practice. Stay with good steel names like Sorby, Ward, Marples...or old Stanleys with blue or black handles. These are still my most favourite chisels.

Saws...start with Andy's suggestion of hardpoint ones...as sharpening old saws is an art most people shy away from...with good reason!

Make a mallet...old bits of beech will do for now in the traditional style of a square head. Or pick one up from a bootfair for a quid!

I guarantee that if you get up reasonably early and stick a £20 in your pocket and buy some tools selectively (search "Bootfair" here to give you ideas what is good and what is not)....you will always come out with some gems...some good users and some tat! This will teach you very quickly what is tat and what is not! :wink: 

Most of all...have fun! You will get great satisfaction out of making things and indeed...I still use my oak bench made from an old pair of doors...it's my friend now...although I would start all over again now I have the knowledge gained entirely from UKW....but then I guess we all think this as we become more experienced. That's life isn't it?

Jimi


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## TheWizardofOdds (4 Mar 2013)

Jacob":1b74my3e said:


> My list very similar to Gazpal.
> This is what I was given when I was released:
> 
> Kit issued for Tops courses in carpentry and joinery 1982, with which you can just about everything!
> ...



That seems a good point to start from. Again, it's good to see peoples' idea of the initial tool kit. It means I can weed out the unecessary items and get a good picture of what is more or less essential.



nicguthrie":1b74my3e said:


> ...You originally said you fancied Japanese saws, and sort of got discouraged from it. I love Japanese saws (as does my "mentor"), and I get better, more accurate cuts with them than any other hand saw. I'd not built up a habit or a "feel" for "normal" saws before starting, so there was no disadvantage there, and being lighter and usually a lot thinner in the blade, they push thru the wood with less effort - helps me a lot with the fact I have serious joint troubles. You may get a faster, more agressive cut with european style saws, but they all cut wood. If you like to use a particular type, opinions are opinions, use what you feel best with.
> Just my tuppence worth. I'll go back to lurking now.



Your thoughts are most welcome lurker! I take your point and yes, I have been discouraged from the japanese saw, but I have asked peoples' opinion and it seems the majority (at least the posters') prefer the european saw. I have to go with experience and to be honest I change my mind with every post! It's a very valid point that I would have no feel for either at the moment anyway so would have nothing to lose really. I'm still undecided. :roll: 



GazPal":1b74my3e said:


> ...My recommendations for initial projects would be;
> 
> 1. Saw Horse x 2
> 2. Tool box
> ...



What is the older style of Workmate Jimi? Is it a B&D one? I think you're perhaps the second person to champion them in this thread. They do seem cheap even as a stopgap. Thanks for the tips, duly noted.


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## jimi43 (4 Mar 2013)

> What is the older style of Workmate Jimi? Is it a B&D one? I think you're perhaps the second person to champion them in this thread. They do seem cheap even as a stopgap. Thanks for the tips, duly noted.



Yes mate...the older the better but at least this vintage or older than this one if possible...







I think this one was about £15...I can't remember but surprisingly good nick...been in a warm garage I'd expect...

They were much more robust in those days...unlike the tin or plastic ones you see in certain DIY outlets now.

Just to give you some idea...this lump of oak was so heavy it didn't need clamping to plane the crud off...






Best way to store them...get two bike hooks and hang them on the wall...they are a booger to store otherwise and invariably fall over onto the side of your car...next door's kid or the dog! :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## Harbo (4 Mar 2013)

The older ones were even more heavier - made from cast aluminium and with a very thick top.

I have two of them ( one I bought and the other from my father). One of them is used as a temporary base for my router table but that as being going on for about 10yrs
I fitted mine with Record Bench Holdfasts which makes them even more useful.

Rod


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## jimi43 (4 Mar 2013)

Harbo":hkul85g9 said:


> The older ones were even more heavier - made from cast aluminium and with a very thick top.
> 
> I have two of them ( one I bought and the other from my father). One of them is used as a temporary base for my router table but that as being going on for about 10yrs
> I fitted mine with Record Bench Holdfasts which makes them even more useful.
> ...



Indeed. The one in the foreground is such a beast but unfortunately I don't have any decent pictures of it than just that glimpse.

Also sadly...it is not in quite the same nick as the later B&D one....

Jim


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## TheWizardofOdds (5 Mar 2013)

Harbo":qa229ls6 said:


> The older ones were even more heavier - made from cast aluminium and with a very thick top.
> 
> I have two of them ( one I bought and the other from my father). One of them is used as a temporary base for my router table but that as being going on for about 10yrs
> I fitted mine with Record Bench Holdfasts which makes them even more useful.
> ...



I don't suppose you would know the name of the model or year for the older one, Rod?



jimi43":qa229ls6 said:


> ...The one in the foreground is such a beast but unfortunately I don't have any decent pictures of it than just that glimpse.
> 
> Also sadly...it is not in quite the same nick as the later B&D one....
> 
> Jim



I had a look on ebay Jim for the model that you can see clearly in your photo and I think it's a seventies number. There are a good few for sale around £35. That looks like it has seen some action over the years. I wonder if the new models will be still be around in forty years? Thanks.


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## AndyT (5 Mar 2013)

There's more good stuff on proper Workmates here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post716845.html#p716845 and in the thread it leads to.


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## Harbo (5 Mar 2013)

Don't think they have a model number but mine look like the one in Andy's photo.


Rod


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## Jelly (6 Mar 2013)

bugbear":sicf15rd said:


> In order to avoid the ridiculous maths of compound angles, the first housing in the body was used as a template, marking out the cuts for both the top (obvious) and bottom of all the legs (each leg was installed upside down, and the compound cut needed so it hit the floor flush was done).



When I moved into my current house (and workshop), I made some trestles, there's a very complete description here...

The trick above is a good one, combined with thinking about of the marking out for the housing joints in terms of ratios of how much to move out/across for the amount you move down, can help make something seemingly really complex, easy and straightforward to do.


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## TheWizardofOdds (6 Mar 2013)

AndyT":7od6ymp2 said:


> There's more good stuff on proper Workmates here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post716845.html#p716845 and in the thread it leads to.



That is a world away from the modern version. I don't think I'd need a bench if I had that. Very good. Unlikely I'd get a hold of one but you never know. 



Jelly":7od6ymp2 said:


> bugbear":7od6ymp2 said:
> 
> 
> > In order to avoid the ridiculous maths of compound angles, the first housing in the body was used as a template, marking out the cuts for both the top (obvious) and bottom of all the legs (each leg was installed upside down, and the compound cut needed so it hit the floor flush was done).
> ...



They look very nice indeed. I like the way you're setting up your workshop, and it's good to see a pic of the tools you used to make your projects too.


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## Vann (8 Mar 2013)

GazPal":2iwmzdpf said:


> A starter kit could include;
> 
> 9. Brace and set of bits (Incl. Countersink)





Jacob":2iwmzdpf said:


> My list very similar to Gazpal.
> 
> brace & bit


Not a criticism, just an observation, I find it interesting that you both include a brace and bits, but neither of you include an eggbeater drill (and bits).

I was "issued" a brace and some bits when I started my apprenticeship in 1973. I have never used it in anger (only worked at my trade for 9 years including apprenticeship). It's only now that I'm on a hand-tool binge that I'm experimenting with one (or two, or more..  ). 

I never owned an eggbeater drill either, until recently. I found them too difficult to use back then. Now I have one with a countersink bit permanently in the chuck, and another with a 3mm bit.

Mind you, we were equipped with pneumatic pistol drills (Desouter), so braces and eggbeaters were almost unnecessary.

Cheers, Vann


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## Jacob (8 Mar 2013)

Vann":2egncifh said:


> ....Not a criticism, just an observation, I find it interesting that you both include a brace and bits, but neither of you include an eggbeater drill (and bits)......


I always thought they were _engineer's_ drills, both in name and trade. In fact I have never used one - the brace would drill holes, but anyway the Black & Decker was cheap and well established back then.


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## Jelly (8 Mar 2013)

Jacob":3efjzoeg said:


> Vann":3efjzoeg said:
> 
> 
> > ....Not a criticism, just an observation, I find it interesting that you both include a brace and bits, but neither of you include an eggbeater drill (and bits)......
> ...



Indeed, the only use I've found for eggbeater drills is when you need to drill a small diameter hole, at a relatively slow speed in a awkward place... It's easier to put too much pressure on a bit and brace with a small bit, not to mention hard to find one that will chuck small diameter bits or decent bits adapted for quick-change chucks that will happily hold in a 2-jaw chuck.

If you don't need the low speed, then a powered drill is ultimately the way forwards.



TheWizardofOdds":3efjzoeg said:


> They look very nice indeed. I like the way you're setting up your workshop, and it's good to see a pic of the tools you used to make your projects too.



Thanks, they're a bit rough and ready, but will happily support a substantive weight... When I get round to it, I'll take the legs off to finally put the angled shoulders on them and replace the nailed on ply crossbars with something a bit more elegant.

The workshop setup is an exercise in basic ergonomics, I'm awful for making a mess so I had to make it easier to actually put things away than to just let them pile up on all available flat surfaces (which to some extent has happened anyway... I need to add something to hold my moulding planes and oddments). For all I balk at the Japanese buzzwords and lofty ideals, _Kaizen_ and the 5 _S_'s have definitely made a bit of an impression on me as concepts.

I was unsure of the utility of posting the picture of the tools I used, but I figured it would illustrate the relative simplicity of it all, and maybe help someone like yourself visualise what's possible with what.


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## GazPal (8 Mar 2013)

Vann":28e532ez said:


> GazPal":28e532ez said:
> 
> 
> > A starter kit could include;
> ...



I only began my apprenticeship a little earlier than you, but never really had any use for a hand drill/egg beater drill - in spite of owning one - if working on site. My brace and bits were virtually used daily and especially so if roped into site work (Primarily when door hanging (Lock and letterbox fitting), installing staircases (Drilling for coach bolts/screws, through mortise prep., etc.) and concrete shuttering work). The braces I had could/can handle square and round shanked bits, so came in especially useful where power was seldom available until after house/building electrics were connected. In fact is was/is often quicker to drill with a brace than have to set up extension leads, etc., to drill a few holes. I know I wore out a few gimlets during my time on sites. :lol:

My electric drill - back then - was metal bodied by a company named "Wolf" and had a nice "Jacob's" chuck fitted.

------------

Stanley #73 braces hold small diameter bits - down to approx 3mm dia - as they have a universal jaw set fitted. Back in the day they used to cost a small fortune when new, but were well worth the investment if you found yourself using both square and round shanked bits. Since the advent of cordless drills - the same braces seem to go for next to nothing on evilbay (Used), but buy a new brace of similar quality from elsewhere and you can expect to pay upward of £50.


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## Jacob (8 Mar 2013)

I also had a Yankee SD with several sizes of straight fluted drill bits which got used a lot and worked very well. And 2 sizes of bradawl for small screws no6 or smaller.


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## GazPal (8 Mar 2013)

Jacob":2kowr77y said:


> I also had a Yankee SD with several sizes of straight fluted drill bits which got used a lot and worked very well. And 2 sizes of bradawl for small screws no6 or smaller.



I think Yankee SD's were all the rage and most of us owned at least one Jacob.  I had a couple in different lengths and they were/are a great piece of kit with lots of torque when needed and rightly capable of drilling pilot holes and even countersinking if you adapted a bit to fit. Spiralux made another good - but basic - ratchet screwdriver.


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## AndyT (8 Mar 2013)

Although I am an outright hand tool enthusiast who has more braces and hand drills than many more normal people, as advice to someone starting out, I'd say that a decent cordless combination drill/driver should be one of your first purchases. It will cover almost all of your requirements and is the sensible match for the sort of drill bits and screws that you can easily buy.

Just don't expect it still to be working in 50 years time!


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## GazPal (8 Mar 2013)

AndyT":1nvzvlbu said:


> Although I am an outright hand tool enthusiast who has more braces and hand drills than many more normal people, as advice to someone starting out, I'd say that a decent cordless combination drill/driver should be one of your first purchases. It will cover almost all of your requirements and is the sensible match for the sort of drill bits and screws that you can easily buy.
> 
> *Just don't expect it still to be working in 50 years time!*



I agree, but unfortunately most wear out within a couple or three years.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Mar 2013)

I had a snail countersink for a 131 yankee - once I polished the inside it was FAST. One of the most useful things I found for a brace was a large screwdriver bit - brilliant for longtime stuck screws.


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## Muswell (8 Mar 2013)

phil.p":3gp2cmb8 said:


> I had a snail countersink for a 131 yankee - once I polished the inside it was FAST. One of the most useful things I found for a brace was a large screwdriver bit - brilliant for longtime stuck screws.



I second that for the screwdriver, my only regret is that I haven't got a bit for pozidrive screws. The other thing I like to use the brace for is large auger bits because there is more control.


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## Muswell (8 Mar 2013)

gomeraman":19enw9wd said:


> My first job would be (and was many years ago) to make a sturdy bench out of sawn stock timber. This gives lots of practice at square cross-cutting with a hard-point saw and then planing of the top surface. Don't use thin timbers but big beefy chunks that are bolted together so the whole thing can be easily dismantled when you move. A heavy work bench will give you much more control when doing finer jobs later on than the silly flimsy things sold in most shops that move when you tighten the vice or make a joint with a chisel (most DIY plans you'll find are like this too, and much more elaborate than you need). So use the motto "Thick is bright, thin is dim".



My first, bought, bench was fairly flimsy but I learned what I wanted from it and the the one I built now suits the way I work. It is very simple, has removable panels, the top and legs are 4" maple, and it knocks-down with wedged joints. What I was really impressed by was how much better the massive top was for chiselling because there was no bounce. It also doubles up as an air raid shelter if things get bad.


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## AndyT (8 Mar 2013)

Muswell":1mvnhe05 said:


> phil.p":1mvnhe05 said:
> 
> 
> > I had a snail countersink for a 131 yankee - once I polished the inside it was FAST. One of the most useful things I found for a brace was a large screwdriver bit - brilliant for longtime stuck screws.
> ...



In my experience, plenty of pozidrive bits work just fine in a brace - their hexagonal shank is gripped well in an old style two-jaw chuck or even better in a more modern universal chuck. To get enough length you can use a magnetic bit holder, or just choose one of the longer design bits.


----------



## Muswell (8 Mar 2013)

Thanks Andy T. I've just tried a bit holder and it's perfect ....my brain cells must be dying quicker than I thought.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Mar 2013)

I went the other way around - I put a no2 pozi yankee bit in a battery drill. All four "wings" broke off as if they were glass. The steel was obviously harder.


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## TheWizardofOdds (9 Mar 2013)

AndyT":2nwhjlwt said:


> Although I am an outright hand tool enthusiast who has more braces and hand drills than many more normal people, as advice to someone starting out, I'd say that a decent cordless combination drill/driver should be one of your first purchases. It will cover almost all of your requirements and is the sensible match for the sort of drill bits and screws that you can easily buy.
> 
> Just don't expect it still to be working in 50 years time!



I will be getting a drill/driver, I want to use hand tools mostly but I think a little help is OK. I see you can spend silly money on these too, I'll probably go for a middle of the road number, if I get a few years out of it then so be it. 



Muswell":2nwhjlwt said:


> ...My first, bought, bench was fairly flimsy but I learned what I wanted from it and the the one I built now suits the way I work. It is very simple, has removable panels, the top and legs are 4" maple, and it knocks-down with wedged joints. What I was really impressed by was how much better the massive top was for chiselling because there was no bounce. It also doubles up as an air raid shelter if things get bad.



I think it's likely I will purchase a cheap Workmate just to get me started and then I can tackle bigger projects like making my own bench too.

I think I'm going to go for a few more books and get started on some small projects.

Question time: Is it best to get a Try-square or a Combination Square? ...Or both? And what is this carry on with checking if they are correctly fitted/made to measure square? Most of my purchases will be online so it's not something I can check. Even if I knew how.

When I buy the likes of Hammers/Mallets/Squares/Knives can these items be bought from the likes of B&Q, Wickes etc. or is it best to buy from Axminster and other reputable sites?

Where in your opinion is best to buy tools from? I don't mean boot sales or ebay or anything like that yet, I don't have the knowledge to buy safely from these places so must stick to online, DIY stores.

Does anyone have any sites that they know of with good projects for the beginner using mostly hand tools?

I've had a good look around myself, many projects seem to lead on to sites that require you to part with $50 or whatever first. Or require you to have more machinery than Rolls Royce. 

Lastly, :roll: What other good UK sites for woodworking would people recommend? There does appear to be some good American ones but I'd prefer British sites. This can be sites for projects, tools, general interest.

Thanks.


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## Paul Chapman (9 Mar 2013)

TheWizardofOdds":2d9ahqwb said:


> Question time: Is it best to get a Try-square or a Combination Square?



I would always buy a decent engineers square - something like this http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Eng ... 150mm.html

The traditional woodworkers squares with a wooden handle and the combination squares tend not to be very accurate. With an inaccurate square you will get cumulative errors in your work which will end up causing you problems.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jelly (10 Mar 2013)

TheWizardofOdds":73bx3re5 said:


> When I buy the likes of Hammers/Mallets/Squares/Knives can these items be bought from the likes of B&Q, Wickes etc. or is it best to buy from Axminster and other reputable sites?
> 
> Where in your opinion is best to buy tools from? I don't mean boot sales or ebay or anything like that yet, I don't have the knowledge to buy safely from these places so must stick to online, DIY stores.


Have a look on http://www.toolbank.com, if you note down the order numbers and go into almost any timber/builders merchants they'll be able to order *exactly* what you want or need within 48hrs or so. A really good range of gear and usually cheaper than b&q and the like.

Screwfix and (to a lesser extent) Machine Mart are worth checking if you're looking for relatively common tools, sometimes they have stuff cheaper than anywhere else... 

For more specialised tools, axminster, workshop heaven and the like are undoubtedly king, but it's well worth checking to see if there are any specialist shops in your area, always good to shop local!

For planes, other than the obligatory No.5 or similar do-it-all I reckon its worth waiting and aquiring that little bit of extra knowlege required to buy second hand... In general modern metal bodied planes are either Iffy* or Very Expensive, wheras the older ones tend to be quite affordable for their high quality. The older wooden bodied planes are IMO superior again, but they're somewhat different (most notably, they're set with very gentle taps with a hammer or mallet, not adjustment screws).

*I've had good experiences with cheap planes, but they're not consistent: you might get one that's perfect or you might get one which is not quite _so_ and needs a good fettling



> Does anyone have any sites that they know of with good projects for the beginner using mostly hand tools?
> 
> I've had a good look around myself, many projects seem to lead on to sites that require you to part with $50 or whatever first. Or require you to have more machinery than Rolls Royce.



I don't have a direct answer... but as you learn how all the joints are made (if you have some scrap wood, just practice different joints on it till you have developed a technique that works for you) then its usually possible to follow plans written with powertools in mind just substituting the powered techniques for appropriate manual ones as you go along...

The only exception to that is when it would entail hand ripping thick sections... Which is possible, but takes an inordinate amount of time and energy.


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## TheWizardofOdds (22 Mar 2013)

Jelly":q7hyplbe said:


> TheWizardofOdds":q7hyplbe said:
> 
> 
> > When I buy the likes of Hammers/Mallets/Squares/Knives can these items be bought from the likes of B&Q, Wickes etc. or is it best to buy from Axminster and other reputable sites?
> ...



Thanks, I agree about shopping locally, I've taken a look at some local antiques shops and one in particular has a load of old wooden planes but they look like they need a lot of TLC. I will keep an eye out in future for more. They have really old chisels etc. I think if you knew your onions so to speak it could be a very good cheap resource for a woodworker.


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## TheWizardofOdds (22 Mar 2013)

I have been thinking and thinking about what to do for projects and have decided upon a very simple small four foot by two bench to start me off. It's only now that I have managed to pick up a few tools at last. I looked locally at the likes of Wickes, Homebase and some local antique shops but decided that the tools were either too cheap, inadequate, or needed too much work done to get up to scratch. So yesterday I went to Bill's Tool Store in Glasgow's East End and it was thick with tradesmen buying whatever they needed. I came away with a bradawl for a quid, a marking knife for three quid, a 1991 Stanley hand drill for a tenner and a Record No. 4 plane for a score. I don't actually need the plane for this initial project but I took a chance on it in the hope that I can refurb it to a good usable condition. Most of the tools in the store are ex-MOD I believe. The plane is a 1982 one. It didn't have a screw at the front but was fitted with one from a Stanley No.5. I wasn't sure which plane to go for but since my Essential Woodworker book references a Record No.4 in the stripping and preparation of a plane I went for that instead. Now I need a tape measure, universal saw and a square and I'm good to go.

I went to all the aforementioned stores and also some local timber yards and priced my timber. Unsurprisingly, the timber yards are much cheaper. Still not what I'd call cheap really but there you go, everything's going up in price these days. I need some softwood mostly but for the top of the bench I was thinking 18mm thick Plywood, does that seem ok? I can't remember off hand what the cutting list states for the top. It is only a small bench but it should go together ok even for me. From there probably the horses, I just want to get a bench together quickly and get started on making projects.

Here's a poorly taken pic of yesterday's tool buy. Should I be putting these in a new thread in a Project thread or is here ok?


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## TheWizardofOdds (22 Mar 2013)

Paul Chapman":g3muhhsf said:


> TheWizardofOdds":g3muhhsf said:
> 
> 
> > Question time: Is it best to get a Try-square or a Combination Square?
> ...



I've taken a look at the engineer squares and have seen a Moore and Wright 150mm for twenty quid, think I'll get it. Thanks.


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## adzeman (22 Mar 2013)

I was in the market last year for a large tradtional square with a wood handle and was a prime purpose for attending the Bentley Wood fair. There were loads for sale all at very cheap rates. There were a number of engineers squares available also. It is simple to check if a square is true take a pencil with you and draw a line on the sellers table or a spare piece of wood. Turn the square over on the same point and draw a line. If you have one line showing its true if a v line dont buy.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Mar 2013)

That assumes, of course, that the reference surface is dead straight.


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## LJM (26 Mar 2013)

Others have mentioned clamps in passing; assuming you get fully sucked into this, you may find yourself surprised by the number that you need for some jobs, meaning they can be a considerable expense. So it may be beneficial to keep an eye out for bargains, new or used, and slowly build up a stock of them. But as with other purchases, be guided by the work you wish to or are doing.

Good luck


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## TheWizardofOdds (28 Mar 2013)

adzeman":wflijuwt said:


> I was in the market last year for a large tradtional square with a wood handle and was a prime purpose for attending the Bentley Wood fair. There were loads for sale all at very cheap rates. There were a number of engineers squares available also. It is simple to check if a square is true take a pencil with you and draw a line on the sellers table or a spare piece of wood. Turn the square over on the same point and draw a line. If you have one line showing its true if a v line dont buy.



I'm still a bit undecided about going for a try square or the engineers square. It's going to be another long month before I can get the rest of tools/timber I need for the bench so I'm weighing up whether to go for a relatively cheap 11/12 quid try or spend a bit more for the engineer square. Thanks for the tip.



LJM":wflijuwt said:


> Others have mentioned clamps in passing; *assuming you get fully sucked into this,* you may find yourself surprised by the number that you need for some jobs, meaning they can be a considerable expense. So it may be beneficial to keep an eye out for bargains, new or used, and slowly build up a stock of them. But as with other purchases, be guided by the work you wish to or are doing.
> 
> Good luck



:lol: ...Oh yes I'm well and truly sucked in and I haven't done a thing yet.

I completely agree that I should be guided by the work I'm doing as to the tools/materials I purchase. That's my aim, I've got a list of tools and timber I need for the bench/table(?) and I'm sticking to it. Well, I bought the plane thinking it was a decent price and I'll need one quite soon. I hope to add to my tool kit by the project picking up whatever I need in a trade off between quality and price.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2013)

Don't forget you can put a steel rule across something and use a good square to square the ruler. You don't always need to have the square reach right across, so a 6" engineer's is quite a sound choice.


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