# Cannot Varnish ??



## jonluv (26 Sep 2017)

80 years old and can't varnish--- what am I doing wrong--- Sanding down to 400-- finishing with wire wool -- one coat -- sand --- 2 coats --- sand third coat--- dry ---- rubbish---no shine/ gloss at all--- Help!!


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## marcros (26 Sep 2017)

are you stirring the varnish before you apply it?

silly question, but is it a gloss varnish that you are using?


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Sep 2017)

What are you using?


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## NazNomad (26 Sep 2017)

What's the weather like? Damp?


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Sep 2017)

My eyes are getting worse - I read it as Carrot Varnish. :lol:


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## custard (26 Sep 2017)

What wood are you using? Very open grained timbers like Ash need grain filling to deliver a decent gloss.

What temperature is your workshop? Unless it's about 16 degrees c. or over most varnishes take days to cure. It can also be too hot, but that's not usually a problem in the UK. Applying subsequent coats too quickly leads to a wrinkled finish. Varnishing over oil needs extra drying time.

Is your workshop (and your brush!) reasonably dust free? When I'm varnishing I hoover the floor first then have a tea break to let the dust settle, dust is a killer.

What type of varnish are you using? Long oil varnishes (often called Spar varnishes) are thin but flexible, you'll need more coats of a spar varnish to deliver a reasonable film thickness.

How are you sanding? Most sandpapers will clog so quickly on varnish that they become almost useless, try wet sanding the penultimate coat, use stearated sandpaper or scotch bright pads.

Consider a wiping varnish (varnish thinned about 50%) padded on with a rag, it takes more coats but overall it's just easier for the beginner. Note, fire risk, dispose of oily rags properly.

Water based polyurethane varnish is often slightly cloudy, if that's the problem try oil based. Poly varnishes also need a keyed surface to adhere.

Are you following the instructions _to the letter_? Everything you need to know should be on the tin. If you're following the instructions accurately and you're not getting satisfactory results then try contacting the manufacturer, they're usually very helpful and they know more about their own products than anyone here will. 

Try waxing on top of varnish, that's the easiest way of getting more gloss.

Good luck!


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## custard (26 Sep 2017)

Here's an example, even though I'm a furniture maker I've got a useful sideline in making high end "equestrian furniture", stuff like saddle stands, bridle racks and mounting blocks in inappropriately expensive timbers for posh stables! All this gets finished with a wiping varnish that I make up myself, this delivers a satin/matt finish,







It then gets waxed to a high gloss. Couldn't be simpler, an eight year old could do it, an 80 year old would have no problems!


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## jonluv (26 Sep 2017)

Work shed temp is about 18c -- using Wickes varnish--- will try beeswax on top of varnish. May have to go back to French Polish( Shellac) but would prefer not to


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## MusicMan (26 Sep 2017)

That looks good Custard. Are you willing to disclose your varnish formula, or do we have to resort to industrial espionage/threats/bribes????


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## custard (26 Sep 2017)

MusicMan":3797hv33 said:


> That looks good Custard. Are you willing to disclose your varnish formula, or do we have to resort to industrial espionage/threats/bribes????



There's no secret. Roughly equal quantities of a good oil varnish, thinners, and an oil. If you want it too dry faster reduce the oil. If you want a faster build increase the varnish. This is what I use,






but there are loads of recipes out there, and I don't think mine is any better (or any worse) than most of the others. It's simplicity itself to rag it on (as I said before though, dispose of the rags properly) and if you want more gloss then finish with a wax, the harder the wax (i.e. the higher the carnauba content) the shinier the finish but the harder work it is to buff up...you pays your money and you makes your choice.

There's a lot of voodoo surrounding finishing. Most of the basic finishing techniques are no more difficult than making an omelette, but to listen to some of the nonsense you'd think it was alchemy. It's yet another woodworking rabbit hole that you don't want to fall down. Get three or four basic techniques under your belt, consider which one is most appropriate for any given project, then just crack on and do it.

Incidentally, the timber in the previous post was American Black Walnut, which varnishing and time warms up considerably. Before the unpleasantness of 1776 this country used to import loads of ABW and a fair bit of it was varnished. Consequently you'll often find antiques described as Mahogany when it's really varnished ABW.


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## ED65 (26 Sep 2017)

jonluv":1jeyg8jx said:


> ... sand third coat...


Isn't this the problem right there? 

A sanded surface is of course going to be matt. If you need to sand the final coat (more on this below) you have to continue to work the surface that results to smooth it enough to restore a shine (usually done primarily with wet 'n' dry and soapy water as a lubricant). Or you wax it to add a shiny surface coating, but IMO it's better to wipe or brush on one last thin layer of dilute varnish so the shiny surface is varnish (hard) not wax (soft). You'll get a much more durable, long-lasting finish this way that doesn't require maintenance like wax does.

About all the sanding you're doing, you can avoid almost all of that by diluting the varnish somewhat to turn it into 'wiping varnish'. This doesn't have to be wiped, hence the quotes, but it is a very good way of applying varnish. Most varnishes, even cheap ones which have less body, benefit from being diluted somewhat. The thinner consistency helps reduce brushmarks and other application defects. Each coat also dries faster, reducing the problem of dust nibs. 

The two things together greatly reduce the need to sand, with a bit of luck you'll only need to sand after the first coat and then a very minor denib of the final coat, after it's had a chance to fully harden, using brown paper.


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## mbartlett99 (26 Sep 2017)

custard":scnjrscm said:


> MusicMan":scnjrscm said:
> 
> 
> > That looks good Custard. Are you willing to disclose your varnish formula, or do we have to resort to industrial espionage/threats/bribes????
> ...



Hey Custard - whats the tung oil for? I've used it on its own and heaven knows I've thrown a few gallons of epifanes around but never togerther. Just to thin it out a touch?

Back to the OP; 18 temp is fine and humidity in this country is nothing worth talking of. It can go mat on you if it gets hit by cold evening air while drying but thats usually an issue outside. Why are you sanding to 400 - seems excessive - we normally go to 180, first coat 50/50, denib, 2nd 75/25, denib, 3rd full strength and 4th full strength. By 4th got good solid gloss and a bit of depth and grain on teak has nearly filled with perhaps one or two patches. For full yacht finish continue to 8 coats with a good flatting back. And I would definitely use Epifanes for anything exterior.


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## custard (26 Sep 2017)

mbartlett99":38998zjk said:


> Hey Custard - whats the tung oil for?
> 
> By 4th got good solid gloss and a bit of depth and grain on teak has nearly filled with perhaps one or two patches. For full yacht finish continue to 8 coats with a good flatting back. And I would definitely use Epifanes for anything exterior.



I use a dollop of Tung Oil for two reasons, firstly I like the extra warmth it brings to Walnut in particular, secondly I like a really long "long oil" varnish for wiping, especially on curved or turned components and generally getting into nooks and crannies. So for me a quality spar varnish with extra oil is my preferred recipe. But hey, I'm not going to die in a ditch over it, the recipe can be tweaked any way you like and provided you're happy with the results then all's well.

Regarding Epifanes on Teak, they have a special varnish for oily timbers that I've used on both Teak and Rosewood with great success.


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## Sheffield Tony (26 Sep 2017)

phil.p":1hfh5lvl said:


> My eyes are getting worse - I read it as Carrot Varnish. :lol:



Argh, me too ! I know we were talking about non-yellowing finishes the other day, but I've never had one go quite carrot coloured :lol:


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## MusicMan (26 Sep 2017)

Thanks, Custard, for the formula and the advice. I too have used it on its own but never together with varnish.


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## mbartlett99 (26 Sep 2017)

Well b***er me. Wouldn't have crossed my mind to wipe on epifanes. Everydays a school day.


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## custard (26 Sep 2017)

I don't think wiped Epifanes would be appropriate for marine applications, on a boat you're not usually that fussed about the occasional light brush mark (at least I'm not!), but you absolutely want a heavy coating. On furniture it's the other way around, any brush marks are totally unacceptable, but you don't want too heavy a coat as it starts to look encapsulated and plasticky. That's really the key to a ragged on varnish finish for furniture, it's basically a low skill short cut to the "rubbed" look without the endless burnishing and somewhat complex brushing techniques.

Incidentally Epifanes do offer a "rubbed look varnish", but it's for internal use and doesn't have the high quality UV inhibitors that Epifanes is renowned for. I suspect it's halfway to being a wiping varnish as it flows very nicely, but personally I'd rather keep the UV inhibitors so I just mix up my own as per the previous recipe.


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## mbartlett99 (27 Sep 2017)

No, wouldn't use epifanes ragged on for a boat - need as much build as possible. TBH I didn't even think of it as a finish for furniture but I'll give it a shot when I get back for sure.

I think we might be talking about different types of yacht - https://www.boatinternational.com/yacht ... cht--31261 . Wish my boss didn't mind the occasional brrushmark!


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## bugbear (27 Sep 2017)

custard":35m4a9t8 said:


> Here's an example, even though I'm a furniture maker I've got a useful sideline in making high end "equestrian furniture", stuff like saddle stands, bridle racks and mounting blocks in inappropriately expensive timbers for posh stables!


_<Google Translate> Even though I'm a furniture maker, I've discovered that people who can afford horses, and all the kit that goes with them, are used to paying good money.</Google Translate>_

 

BugBear


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