# New Veritas Tool Steel - PM-V11



## woodbloke (9 Jul 2012)

It's good! :mrgreen: (hammer) - Rob


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Jul 2012)

So is motherhood and apple pie. Some detail would be appreciated. For example, is it good at taking a very fine edge at, say, 25 degree honing angle and holding it for lots of fine paring? Is it good at holding an edge for a long time chopping abrasive timbers? Is it easy to sharpen on conventional stones, or does it need something fancy? Does it show any signs of the brittleness associated with some A2 tools?

Is it worth taking out a mortgage to replace all the tools already in the toolchest?


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## GazPal (9 Jul 2012)

Cheshirechappie":sjq3c9ne said:


> So is motherhood and apple pie.
> 
> Is it worth taking out a mortgage to replace all the tools already in the toolchest?



I agree on both points and everything else between


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## GazPal (9 Jul 2012)

woodbloke":29tw9dye said:


> GazPal":29tw9dye said:
> 
> 
> > Is it worth taking out a mortgage to replace all the tools already in the toolchest?
> ...



Must be the best thing since sliced bread


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## SammyQ (10 Jul 2012)

Foe those who are alphabetically challenged.....I think Rob is referring to:

http://www.pm-v11.com/

Cynics may suspect a resemblance to SN8K-01L.....   C'mon Rob! Dish the details! 

Sam


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## jimi43 (10 Jul 2012)

I note that sharpening O1 from a baseline to the same sharpness vs PM-V11 was almost twice as fast...as it was versus A2

Or did I read this wrong?

:lol: 

I guess this would make sense if PM-V11 is that much harder......but you can compensate for this by using ceramic hones and other techniques.

Time to chuck away all my natural hones I guess.......wait....nah. I have never been dissatisfied with old steels...and I don't think that is likely to change any time soon.

Jim


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## Rob Lee (10 Jul 2012)

woodbloke":ip9knxip said:


> It's good! :mrgreen: (hammer) - Rob



Hmm....

Plane blade, right???

Don't think we've sent a chisel yet...

Cheers - 

The other Rob


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## dunbarhamlin (10 Jul 2012)

What's almost more interesting is that the test results presented suggest yesterday's darling toolie steel, A2, is barely more performant than O1, whilst being considerably harder to sharpen.


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## Modernist (10 Jul 2012)

Are you taking it Sat?


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## Rob Lee (10 Jul 2012)

dunbarhamlin":2qvzlzcb said:


> What's almost more interesting is that the test results presented suggest yesterday's darling toolie steel, A2, is barely more performant than O1, whilst being considerably harder to sharpen.



Hi, 

Not sure I'd go quite that far, as our testing does show different. There will certainly be an appropriate choice for many people among the steels on offer though. Keep in mind that our scales are relative, and not absolute. Our testing was designed to aid in making a selection... not to absolutely quantify differences. 

"Harder to sharpen" really depends on the regimen you use....

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Rob Lee (10 Jul 2012)

SammyQ":2ebtpuzh said:


> Foe those who are alphabetically challenged.....I think Rob is referring to:
> 
> http://www.pm-v11.com/
> 
> ...



Darn... I *almost* searched "SN8K-01L"...

Good one!


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## Paul Chapman (10 Jul 2012)

What a great time we woodworkers are living in with firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others continually developing better tools and materials  

Keep up the good work, Rob.......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Mr Ed (10 Jul 2012)

Paul Chapman":3ftcxieo said:


> What a great time we woodworkers are living in with firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others continually developing better tools and materials
> 
> Keep up the good work, Rob.......
> 
> ...



Yes, well to some extent, but let's not forget the better mousetrap fallacy

http://tomfishburne.com/2011/08/a-better-mousetrap.html

As it says, “People don’t want to buy a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole.”


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## Paul Chapman (10 Jul 2012)

Mr Ed":2jvy5bri said:


> Paul Chapman":2jvy5bri said:
> 
> 
> > What a great time we woodworkers are living in with firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others continually developing better tools and materials
> ...



Yes, but in the 1970s and 80s most hand tools simply disappeared from the market. If it hadn't been for firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others we wouldn't have any mouse traps at all........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Doug B (10 Jul 2012)

Paul Chapman":3lh4hu6y said:


> Mr Ed":3lh4hu6y said:
> 
> 
> > Paul Chapman":3lh4hu6y said:
> ...



Agreed Paul,

But I remember all the hype that came along with A2 & it certainly hasn`t lived up to it.


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## SammyQ (10 Jul 2012)

Quote:

Darn... I *almost* searched "SN8K-01L"...

Good one!



  Subtlety is my metier......

Sam


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## Paul Chapman (10 Jul 2012)

Doug B":dvh9w33j said:


> But I remember all the hype that came along with A2 & it certainly hasn`t lived up to it.



I think the problems with A2 were largely ones of marketing. It was marketed as the best thing since sliced bread when it wasn't. Had the manufacturers explained that it would hold an edge longer than 01 but needed to be honed at steeper angles, then a lot of the "problems" could have been avoided. They of course tell us that now and most offer a choice of A2 or 01. It's just a pity that they couldn't have been a bit more up-front in the first place.

I think Rob and his team have made a good start by publishing test results comparing the characteristics of the different materials tested.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Mr Ed (10 Jul 2012)

Doug B":2kqet24m said:


> Agreed Paul,
> 
> But I remember all the hype that came along with A2 & it certainly hasn`t lived up to it.



As it happens I have quite a few A2 plane blades and chisels and haven't had any issues with them, but I mainly selected that steel because it was 'the thing' that was being offered for sale at the time; I wasn't trading up to that from some perceived inferior steel. I personally think the differences between the steels are not as significant as the tool companies present them as being. To be clear, I'm not doubting that each new steel has some better wear or sharpness characteristics, but just that these incremental improvements in steel technology are not as significant to changes in experience for the tool users.

The new steel may well be a better mousetrap, but that in itself doesn't mean anyone wants/needs it as a trade up from what they have now. The tool companies, however much they may have contributed to the growth and betterment of woodworking, are ultimately selling stuff so they are predisposed to continually come forward with the new new thing.

I'll probably buy some anyway :lol: 

Ed


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## Doug B (10 Jul 2012)

Paul Chapman":1bewpeab said:


> I think the problems with A2 were largely ones of marketing. It was marketed as the best thing since sliced bread when it wasn't. Had the manufacturers explained that it would hold an edge longer than 01 but needed to be honed at steeper angles, then a lot of the "problems" could have been avoided. They of course tell us that now and most offer a choice of A2 or 01. It's just a pity that they couldn't have been a bit more up-front in the first place.



Once again I agree Paul, but the same marketing message was paraded by the woodworking press who also bought into A2. They were supposed to have tested it thoroughly & came out with the same message that the marketing men were saying. 

No doubt the same press will be equally enthusiastic to hype up their advertisers latest "best thing since sliced bread".

Though at 30% more for the PM-V11 than standard O1 blades, it will be interesting if this latest "must have" is 30% better than what we already have. For me I think I`ll wait & see, as the saying goes, time will tell.

Cheers.


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## Rob Lee (10 Jul 2012)

Doug B":2maz5w1n said:


> (Snip) it will be interesting if this latest "must have" is 30% better than what we already have. For me I think I`ll wait & see, as the saying goes, time will tell.
> 
> Cheers.



Hi - 

Much as I'd like to be in the same marketing position as Apple is (customers virtually begging for continual upgrades) - there's absolutely no reason to change anything that works for you in the hand tool world. In fact, I'd submit it's much the opposite - antiques seem to become more attractive as skills develop.

We improve products to sell to people that don't have anything (and so that we'll be here for a few more decades). 

It would kinda be a shame to ignore the benefits new processes and materials bring....

Cheers - 

Rob


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## matthewwh (11 Jul 2012)

In fairness A2 was always marketed with the advice to grind it at 30 degrees, it has also now had 10 years of 'field testing' by thousands of people which is incredibly difficult to simulate before taking the decision to use it. 

I guess V11 will take a while to earn its spurs too, but you can't knock the effort Lee Valley have gone to in terms of testing before bringing it to market.

Do you recommend a particular honing regime Rob?


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## Doug B (11 Jul 2012)

Rob Lee":3m5tgvfn said:


> It would kinda be a shame to ignore the benefits new processes and materials bring....



Indeed it would Rob, & I will follow this new steel with interest.





matthewwh":3m5tgvfn said:


> In fairness A2 was always marketed with the advice to grind it at 30 degrees, it has also now had 10 years of 'field testing' by thousands of people which is incredibly difficult to simulate before taking the decision to use it.



Which goes back to the point I was making, to test something thoroughly takes time.


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## Mr Ed (11 Jul 2012)

Rob Lee":3fgnvizs said:


> Doug B":3fgnvizs said:
> 
> 
> > (Snip) it will be interesting if this latest "must have" is 30% better than what we already have. For me I think I`ll wait & see, as the saying goes, time will tell.
> ...



I think you have a realistic and responsible view there Rob, namely that 

a) There is no need to change tools that perform as you want them to
b) Lots of people find old tools to be the best option
c) Tool manufacturers are bound to introduce improvements in technology into their ranges as they come available, but this is just incrementing the performance onwards, its not necessarily intended that people would achieve Nirvana by upgrading from what they already have.

Ed


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## Modernist (11 Jul 2012)

matthewwh":1de2cg4y said:


> In fairness A2 was always marketed with the advice to grind it at 30 degrees, it has also now had 10 years of 'field testing' by thousands of people which is incredibly difficult to simulate before taking the decision to use it.



No it wasn't - hence the problem


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## jimi43 (11 Jul 2012)

It is refreshing in this day and age to hear someone from a major company speak so frankly about the real current position with honesty and no market hype. =D> 



Rob Lee":3scdgsha said:


> .....there's absolutely no reason to change anything that works for you in the hand tool world. In fact, I'd submit it's much the opposite - antiques seem to become more attractive as skills develop.
> 
> We improve products to sell to people that don't have anything (and so that we'll be here for a few more decades).



We have never been in a better position as users of tools where we have a wide choice from fine vintage gems via Internet search and auction sites, modern quality tools using traditional methods such as Clifton, Ashley Iles and many bespoke manufacturers to the new innovations we find in LV, LN and an increasing number from around the world.

In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong with owning and admiring a tool just for the engineering excellence or aesthetic value.....even the pride of owning it....or (dare I say)...collecting such masterpieces.

Many collectors have garages full of vintage cars where the performance today just about matches a family run-around...these sit alongside modern models...the performance of which matches jet fighters....why? Because they can afford to and want to....and...have every right to!

I will certainly get some tools made from "snake oil" some time soon...but I won't be chucking out me Sorbys or Wards to make room for them!

Would appreciate some action shots though Rob (Snr. Woodbloke)....once the article's out! :wink: 

Jim


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## bugbear (11 Jul 2012)

Doug B":3sy0ldyw said:


> Paul Chapman":3sy0ldyw said:
> 
> 
> > I think the problems with A2 were largely ones of marketing. It was marketed as the best thing since sliced bread when it wasn't. Had the manufacturers explained that it would hold an edge longer than 01 but needed to be honed at steeper angles, then a lot of the "problems" could have been avoided. They of course tell us that now and most offer a choice of A2 or 01. It's just a pity that they couldn't have been a bit more up-front in the first place.
> ...



Why is it only the bench woodworkers who get confused and/or hyped?

Turners have been choosing, using and benefitting from modern steels for many years, without apparent difficulty.

BugBear


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## Rob Lee (11 Jul 2012)

matthewwh":110xo7bi said:


> (snip)
> Do you recommend a particular honing regime Rob?



Hi Matthew -

I personally sharpen just about everything on 800x, 4000x waterstones, followed by green honing compound, and this will work just fine on PM-V11. 

PM-V11 should be compatible with most people's current shapening regimen, if they are already sharpening well hardened tool steels.

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Modernist (11 Jul 2012)

bugbear":1cod9en8 said:


> Why is it only the bench woodworkers who get confused and/or hyped?
> 
> Turners have been choosing, using and benefitting from modern steels for many years, without apparent difficulty.
> 
> BugBear



Not quite the same. Turners mainly use bench grinders for sharpening so there is less effort involved and they mainly moved to HSS which is very forgiving of bad grinding technique


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## Vormulac (11 Jul 2012)

jimi43":lzd6hkvu said:


> It is refreshing in this day and age to hear someone from a major company speak so frankly about the real current position with honesty and no market hype. =D>
> 
> Jim



Rob has always been forthcoming about LV's activity and approachable about related matters on here, and I feel it lends massive credibility to the company.

V.


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## Andrea (12 Jul 2012)

Rob Lee":gjhta4jv said:


> Keep in mind that our scales are relative, and not absolute. Our testing was designed to aid in making a selection... not to absolutely quantify differences.



Hi Robin and many tanks for your continued willingness to discuss on forums.

I understand that for you, a relative a ranking is more useful than an absolute one (and it results also more marketing impressive, sorry), but for a potential customer who have to decide which steel to buy (price/performance), an absolute ranking would be more useful.

Anyway.
I had always thought that wear resistance is inversely proportional to the ease of sharpening.
The more a steel is resistant to wear, the more it is difficult to sharpen.
Instead, your tests show that A2 wear much more easily then PM-V11 (score 1.5 vs 9) but, even if only slightly, it is more difficult to sharpen (score 6 vs. 6.5).
I'm not able to understand how it is possible. Could you help me?


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## woodbloke (12 Jul 2012)

Would some moderator kindly like to me explain why the title to MY thread has been altered? :evil: :evil: ...'cos I certainly didn't do it. Does it transgress any forum rules? Probably not, so why was it altered without consultation? - Rob...awaiting an answer

Edit - as no answer has been forthcoming, I've changed it back! (hammer) - Rob


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## woodbloke (13 Jul 2012)

Right chaps, to put you out of your misery :lol: if you're going to Pete Sefton's Bash tomorrow, you can have a little play (hammer) but don't expect the blade to be left in the plane on the bench with squillions of people around...it'll be in it's holder in my pocket and you'll have to ask :wink: - Rob


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## Noel (13 Jul 2012)

I've tidied this thread up for the 2nd time. Bear in mind that threads are not "owned" by anybody and if a moderator feels that a thread or a post needs editing, for whatever reason (complaints, breaching of rules etc) then that will happen and it's best not to try and undermine such decisions.
Any problems with this please take it to the appropriate board, do not discuss such matters on this thread.


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## custard (13 Jul 2012)

> Rob has always been forthcoming about LV's activity and approachable about related matters on here, and I feel it lends massive credibility to the company.
> 
> V.



+1

Of course there's a commercial interest at stake; but it still takes conviction, civility, and not a small amount of courage to be as open as Rob.

=D> =D> =D>


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## Rob Lee (13 Jul 2012)

Andrea":1oi40xh1 said:


> Rob Lee":1oi40xh1 said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind that our scales are relative, and not absolute. Our testing was designed to aid in making a selection... not to absolutely quantify differences.
> ...



Hi Andrea, 

If we can come up with a real world test, that reflects real world use, then we can give an absolute ranking....but that will take a lot more time - perhaps even years, for the steels we tested. I should note that we are still testing steels to be able to do just that...

The wear/sharpening relation does not have to be strictly proportional, as failure modes differ. If an edge fails by chipping, it can still be very difficult to abrade, yet dulls quickly. Again - we evaluated failure modes as well (we'll have more on that later). All I can right now is that both our experimental results and our practical experience support what we've said. 

As we develop more data we'll share it...but we have to be careful about making claims we can't support. Right now - everything we've said is completely supportable, if somewhat generic....

Cheers - 

Rob 
(off for a long weekend...)


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## woodbloke (13 Jul 2012)

If you look at Rob's website about PM-V11, you'll see that the sharpening issue was one that was paramount in the development of this new material. I won't discuss my experiences of sharpening PM-V11 on an open forum, but if anyone's going to Pete Sefton's Bash tomorrow I'm very happy to natter about it there - Rob


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## János (13 Jul 2012)

Hello,

I have read this thread and the web page about the new steel with interest. Unfortunately it said nothing about the actual metallurgy of the steel. Judged from its performance it must be one of the newer cold work tool steels, like Vanadis 4 extra http://www.bucorp.com/files/Uddeholm_Va ... 011_e6.pdf
The only serious drawback of these modern steels (in my opinion) is the complicated method of heath treatment they require. The difficulty of heath treatment renders these tool steels unavailable/unsuitable to DIY toolmakers or craftsman toolsmiths.

Have a nice day,

János


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## CHJ (13 Jul 2012)

János":8ublhd9u said:


> The only serious drawback of these modern steels (in my opinion) is the complicated method of heath treatment they require. The difficulty of heath treatment renders these tool steels unavailable/unsuitable to DIY toolmakers or craftsman toolsmiths.



One other factor is that most New formulations require a very strict and well controlled heat treatment regime.
A regime too easily not met when trying to produce components at lowest cost to meet a limited market.
I have had experience of treating exotics in vacuum and Argon gas furnaces and the like for the aircraft industry (I had 2.5 MW of furnaces in use) and it needs a very tight QA procedure to be anything like happy that you had achieved the final specification.

Down to a more basic level when I did a review of a wet grinder I found a considerable difference in HSS hardness, supposedly to the same specification and similar Rockwell, but from different suppliers. (just gauged by the speed of metal removal, nothing scientific.) and the ability to keep an edge is quite evident in use between different so called standard HSS tools.


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## matthewwh (15 Jul 2012)

It's good!


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## Mr Ed (15 Jul 2012)

I planed a couple of dozen strokes with Rob's blade in a LA jack on Saturday and it was fine. By that I mean it felt basically the same as my own LA jack with an A2 blade in it, which is exactly what I would expect. These kind of short term experiences don't tell us a great deal about the blades performance, since I imagine we could sharpen any bit of steel to plane nicely in the short term*. I'm not saying that to criticise the blade, merely that to understand the steel's qualities will take weeks, if not months, of use to properly appraise the benefits. I think Rob Lee has done this so he's obviously satisfied himself that there is a benefit in the new steel, but for the rest of us we need to go through the process.

I think the point Doug was making earlier in this thread is entirely valid, that the hype with A2 overtook the user demonstrated data and that led to a mismatch between the promised characteristics and reality. There's nothing wrong with A2, you just have to know how to best exploit it's properties (higher angle honing basically) before you can really proclaim it to be the New New Thing**. I will get either a plane blade or a chisel in the new steel and start trying it out to form my own opinion over the coming months. In my view statements of "it's good" are not really helpful at this stage as it's such early days, I would rather stick to my "it's fine, but let's wait and see". 

Ed

*OK, maybe not ANY steel, but you know what I mean...

** The New New Thing, by Michael Lewis - a very interesting book about the internet revolution and Jim Clark's never ending search for the next thing (nothing to do with woodwork)


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## Noel (15 Jul 2012)

I would tend to agree with you Ed regarding these cryptic one liners that some are spouting are indeed not helpful.
As you mention, it will be interesting to see where the new material positions itself in the blade market over the coming months.


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## woodbloke (15 Jul 2012)

Mr Ed":2t8btp87 said:


> I planed a couple of dozen strokes with Rob's blade in a LA jack on Saturday and it was fine. By that I mean it felt basically the same as my own LA jack with an A2 blade in it, which is exactly what I would expect. These kind of short term experiences don't tell us a great deal about the blades performance, since I imagine we could sharpen any bit of steel to plane nicely in the short term*. I'm not saying that to criticise the blade, merely that to understand the steel's qualities will take weeks, if not months, of use to properly appraise the benefits. I think Rob Lee has done this so he's obviously satisfied himself that there is a benefit in the new steel, but for the rest of us we need to go through the process.


I would agree entirely with Ed's analysis, suffice to say that *initial impressions* indicate that '_it's good_' which was the whole point of my statement in the first place. It's far too early to say whether on not it's the definitive blade material, if indeed there is such a thing. For example, how will it perform honed to 25deg?...or what will impact tests with a chisel blade reveal? It has, at this very early stage, got all the characteristics of setting the 'gold standard' by which other blade materials are judged. It's very early days and time, testing and extended usage will provide us with a lot more experience - Rob


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