# hand saws



## apprenticekate (16 Dec 2008)

I started a boatbuilding apprenticeship in August and I now want to start building up my own set of tools. I currently require a tenon saw, dovetail saw and find myself confused by the number of different brands on offer. I want to purchase tools that are going to last. My maximum price is about £40 per saw. I have been looking at Footprint and Victor saws. I see from your forums that members are not particularly impressed by Footprint. I live in Cornwall and there is nowhere I can go to view these saws. Any recommendations would be appreciated. I have used the Japanese saws and have been quite comfortable with them so these may be an option. Brand recommendations please


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## Mikey R (16 Dec 2008)

I would be interested in good quality saws too, but Im coming at this from a hobby perspective.

What do the users here think of the Pax back and large rip saws from CHT?

When looking up the Pax saws I also came across the other saws made by Thomas Flinn:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/

They do a few less expensive ranges, does anyone have experience of these?


Cheers!

EDIT: Forgot to say, good luck on the apprenticeship! A few years ago I had a summer job with Oyster Marine, spent 6 weeks fairing a 50 something ft hull with some really amazing boat builders. Tiring but good fun!


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## marcus (16 Dec 2008)

I have a victor tenon saw and have no complaints about it at all.

Cheers

Marcus


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## WellsWood (16 Dec 2008)

I have the Pax 1776 dovetail saw and it's a complete joy to use, I love it, but it's my only experience of upmarket western style saws. I have no reason to believe any of it's competitors would have left me less enthusiastic had I chosen differently.
It's well out of the price point dictated by your budget though. In that price range I'd be looking at Japanese saws for the best performance/money spent ratio - go for the top of the range stuff, which you should still find affordable, as there is quite a difference in performance for relatively little extra outlay.

I can personally attest to the difference between this, and this


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## MIGNAL (16 Dec 2008)

I have a Pax , Roberts & Lee and a (good) Stanley - all bought in the late 70's / early 80's.
They are all good when properly sharpened. Non of them have the refined handle that you see on a Lie nielsen or a Wenzloff but I'm going to guess that they will cut just as good if sharpened to the same standard.
Not so long ago I was given a very cheap rusty gents saw, it had a steel back and a very cheap handle. I'm pretty certain it was a Draper. I cleaned it up, replaced the brass back and handle (they were spare) and I sharpened it. It cuts fantastic, as good as any I've tried.
I suspect that both the Footprint and Victor saws are very capable - they just have a utility type handle.
For the dovetail there is always the new Veritas offering - when it arrives in the UK.


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## bugbear (16 Dec 2008)

apprenticekate":qdmlt5zw said:


> I started a boatbuilding apprenticeship in August and I now want to start building up my own set of tools. I currently require a tenon saw, dovetail saw and find myself confused by the number of different brands on offer. I want to purchase tools that are going to last. My maximum price is about £40 per saw. I have been looking at Footprint and Victor saws. I see from your forums that members are not particularly impressed by Footprint. I live in Cornwall and there is nowhere I can go to view these saws. Any recommendations would be appreciated. I have used the Japanese saws and have been quite comfortable with them so these may be an option. Brand recommendations please



If your course includes saw sharpening, you can buy a straight saw from a car boot, and clean and sharpen it to a high standard. These are VERY cheap.

You can also improve the comfort of a modern wooden handle easily - using woodworking tools!

Good quality traditional saws are expensive, due to the high labour content, and small market.

There is lots of DIY advice on handle replacement and saw sharpening on the 'net, on blogs, forums and websites.

BugBear


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## Mattty (16 Dec 2008)

MIGNAL":n9lk3g58 said:


> I have a Pax , Roberts & Lee and a (good) Stanley - all bought in the late 70's / early 80's.
> They are all good when properly sharpened. Non of them have the refined handle that you see on a Lie nielsen or a Wenzloff but I'm going to guess that they will cut just as good if sharpened to the same standard.
> Not so long ago I was given a very cheap rusty gents saw, it had a steel back and a very cheap handle. I'm pretty certain it was a Draper. I cleaned it up, replaced the brass back and handle (they were spare) and I sharpened it. It cuts fantastic, as good as any I've tried.
> I suspect that both the Footprint and Victor saws are very capable - they just have a utilitarian handle.
> For the dovetail there is always the new Veritas offering - when it arrives in the UK.


http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... e=1&jump=0

I got mine last week after reading phillys review. Beautiful saw


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## HeathRobinson (16 Dec 2008)

Caveat: This comes to you from a relative newbie.

In terms of the saws mentioned so far I have the Victor brand tenon saw and the Lynx branded 8" non-reversible gents saw. 

Both saws actually have "E. Garlick and Son" emblazoned on the blades despite being marketed differently. The Victor one just happens to advertise Axminster too. Not sure on price differences or if there are discernible quality differences but to me this means they're all made in the same place along with the Pax saws. Neither seem flimsy or badly constructed but if I were to do it again I'd get a pistol grip style dovetail saw instead of the gents saw dovetail. They work, and they have worked well straight from manufacturer for me.

Things I haven't liked about these two were the finish on the Lynx gent's saw handle was not very well done at all. In fact near terrible. Both saws came with some varnish or other on the blades which started to come off with use. Now knowing full well that the look of ones tools matters not one iota I still felt that perhaps I was meant to remove this varnish and so have done so now on the dovetail saw by swabbing with mineral spirits but the stuff on the Victor saw refuses to budge. Of course they need wiping with oil to keep them in good nick too but all saws do.

A number of us also had a go with the new Veritas dovetail saw at woodbloke's place recently. Cuts a near surgical line in my view, and quickly too, but that was only in comparison to woodblokes fairly well used Lie Nielson. A mental comparison with my Lynx dovetail saw makes me think that the Veritas cuts quicker because it is probably sharper being new, but has roughly the same kerf width, probably having very similar set on the teeth. Not sure about the plastic back on the Veritas though this is probably just me being a luddite.

A Fine Woodworking magazine article I have on dovetail saws rates the Crown gent's saw style dovetail as Best Overall of the gents saw style handles and the Adria dovetail as the Best Overall of the pistol grip dovetails. There is a massive difference in price between the two so read into that what you will.

Happy to help, hopefully this doesn't come across as advice though, it is more meant to convey my experience with the saws mentioned so far.

Simon


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## wizer (16 Dec 2008)

MarkW":2bj3gaxl said:


> I can personally attest to the difference between this, and this



Damnit I was trying to find your saw earlier and it eluded me

(ps this thread has been duplicated)


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## Mikey R (16 Dec 2008)

HeathRobinson":x7oycfi4 said:


> ...Both saws actually have "E. Garlick and Son" emblazoned on the blades despite being marketed differently. The Victor one just happens to advertise Axminster too. Not sure on price differences or if there are discernible quality differences but to me this means they're all made in the same place along with the Pax saws. Neither seem flimsy or badly constructed but if I were to do it again I'd get a pistol grip style dovetail saw instead of the gents saw dovetail. They work, and they have worked well straight from manufacturer for me...



If all the less expensive saws made at Thomas Flinn are really that similar, then the backsaws in the Lynx range should be ok?

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... Range.html

I might get one in the new year, but Im not really sure what makes a good saw - all mine are hardpoints


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## Paul Chapman (16 Dec 2008)

If you want to spend about £40 per saw, then for the dovetail I'd definitely go for the new Veritas http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... ritas.html 

I've tried it out and it's an absolute cracker - you won't be disappointed. 

Cheers :ho2 

Paul


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## dunbarhamlin (16 Dec 2008)

ApprenticeKate, to echo BB, unless going Japanese, whether buying new or old, sooner or later you _will_ need to learn to sharpen your saws, particularly since they are to be used in your work.
Further to that, bear in mind that the only functional part of a saw which persists beyond its first sharpening is the handle shape - which can be adjusted or replaced to suit.
If you can find sound examples on the S/H market, that would certainly be the least expensive route - and also mean you have less invested in your first sharpening victim  

Mikey - but for cosmetic differences, the only distinction between the Tho. Flinn backsaw ranges is that the teeth are hand finished in the Pax range - vide supra.

Cheers
Steve


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## Mikey R (16 Dec 2008)

dunbarhamlin":1ckfhei4 said:


> ApprenticeKate, to echo BB, unless going Japanese, whether buying new or old, sooner or later you _will_ need to learn to sharpen your saws, particularly since they are to be used in your work.
> Further to that, bear in mind that the only functional part of a saw which persists beyond its first sharpening is the handle shape - which can be adjusted or replaced to suit.
> If you can find sound examples on the S/H market, that would certainly be the least expensive route - and also mean you have less invested in your first sharpening victim
> 
> ...



Cheers Steve - 


Another question for a pros - is there a practical difference between a brass back and a steel back?

Thanks!


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## dunbarhamlin (16 Dec 2008)

Brass is pretty.
The End.

[edit] Sorry, that was flip - no, no practical difference except price[/edit]


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## Mikey R (16 Dec 2008)

dunbarhamlin":1h6j06uu said:


> Brass is pretty.
> The End.
> 
> [edit] Sorry, that was flip - no, no practical difference except price[/edit]



 Thanks - I'll be going for the steel one then!

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... Range.html


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## AndyT (16 Dec 2008)

Mike asked:



> is there a practical difference between a brass back and a steel back?



Brass backs are generally heavier, making it easier to do as my old school woodwork teacher always told us and 'let the saw do the work.'

Andy


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## Mikey R (16 Dec 2008)

AndyT":2xxuo9tm said:


> Mike asked:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cheers Andy,

As Im planning on keeping these saws for a very long time, I dont think the £10 difference is a worthy saving when factored over a good few decades of service.

Better get it right or I'll just have to buy a replacement in a few years time!


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## bugbear (17 Dec 2008)

AndyT":1yerh9zp said:


> Mike asked:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For equal thickness brass is around 15% (i.e.. not much) heavier.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (17 Dec 2008)

I've used the new Veritas dovetail saw for a short while now and as Paul says, it's very, very good...easily the equal of something costing two or three times as much. At a tad less than £40 I don't see anything that's going to come close to beating it - Rob


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## TheTiddles (18 Dec 2008)

I have two Lynx saws, the 14" tennon saws with rip and cross profiles, they are very good from what I've found, they are presents so have the walnut handles which almost doubles the price I think. I will be getting more...

Aidan


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## Benchwayze (18 Dec 2008)

apprenticekate":31fkjdem said:


> I started a boatbuilding apprenticeship in August and I now want to start building up my own set of tools. I currently require a tenon saw, dovetail saw and find myself confused by the number of different brands on offer. I want to purchase tools that are going to last. My maximum price is about £40 per saw. I have been looking at Footprint and Victor saws. I see from your forums that members are not particularly impressed by Footprint. I live in Cornwall and there is nowhere I can go to view these saws. Any recommendations would be appreciated. I have used the Japanese saws and have been quite comfortable with them so these may be an option. Brand recommendations please



Surely you can find these tools in Cornwall? About ten years ago, I was in Truro. I went into one of those 'General Stores', in the newly built 'Mall'. I glimpsed a beautiful, 24" Disston crosscut saw, just hanging on a cup-hook above the display shelves. Needless to say, at £30.00 it is now in my workshop. 

If that's too rich today, then I would have a look at

http://www.oldtools.co.uk

http://www.oldtools.co.uk/tools/misc/saws/saws.php

There's one there for £20.00 

They are reliable and they describe their items well. I've never been disappointed with them. I am sure they would have something suitable. 

Best of luck


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## matthewwh (21 Dec 2008)

apprenticekate":wyedz1b7 said:


> I live in Cornwall and there is nowhere I can go to view these saws.



Any interest in doing a passaround with these two? 

Newly arrived from Gyokucho they are £35 each and shortly to be on special offer at £55 for the pair. 

If there's enough interest I'll set one up.






Gyokucho Yokobiki (crosscut) Dozuki - Eva Grip





Gyokucho Tatebiki (rip) Dozuki - Eva Grip


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## Mattty (21 Dec 2008)

mmmm there shiny Matt... :lol: 8)


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## Jake (21 Dec 2008)

Oooh yes.

Jake;


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## Harlequin (29 Dec 2008)

matthewwh":r8o9v6w5 said:


> apprenticekate":r8o9v6w5 said:
> 
> 
> > I live in Cornwall and there is nowhere I can go to view these saws.
> ...




would be interesting to try these out Matt. Count me in.

ta


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## forcemax (30 Dec 2008)

Hey,there,

As you are working on wood and tools by hand saws,I think measuring tape is a good partner for your works,

Cheers

www.forcemax-handtools.com


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## woodbloke (30 Dec 2008)

forcemax":2fx8k7jv said:


> Hey,there,
> 
> As you are working on wood and tools by hand saws,I think measuring tape is a good partner for your works,
> 
> ...


 
...so no vested interest then? [-X Not quite the done thing around here and even more so as it's a first post - Rob


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## Mikey R (7 Jan 2009)

Mikey R":29x91j2y said:


> dunbarhamlin":29x91j2y said:
> 
> 
> > Brass is pretty.
> ...



Yesterday I took delivery of an E.T Roberts and Lee Rip Saw from http://www.oldtools.co.uk - 






Im looking forward to giving it a try but dont know when I'll get a chance. 

I would definitely buy from them again when I go for a tenon saw


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## dunbarhamlin (7 Jan 2009)

Good score! BTW R&L are now part of Tho Flinn.
Cheers
Steve


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## Mikey R (7 Jan 2009)

dunbarhamlin":11cypoxu said:


> Good score! BTW R&L are now part of Tho Flinn.
> Cheers
> Steve



I read that also. This saw is breasted and taper ground, so from what I can tell, its in the same quality as the Pax range.

_For less than half the price_

Im quite pleased, but the real test will be ripping 3ft of 1in North American hard ash when I get a mo... :shock: My old hardpoint used to really struggle with this kind of task, Im wondering what a real rip filed saw will make of it


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## dunbarhamlin (8 Jan 2009)

How many teeth per inch? Expect this will be a breeze.
Ash, maple, ebony - bit of a work out, but really satisfying with a good rip saw. The nice thing is, when it's time they're really easy to sharpen.


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## bugbear (8 Jan 2009)

Mikey R":2clr5kir said:


> Yesterday I took delivery of an E.T Roberts and Lee Rip Saw from http://www.oldtools.co.uk -



If the picture is accurate, a little time spent with a rasp on the handle arrises would be well spent.

Making nice handles is expensive for the manufacturers, but quite easy and satisifying in an amatuer's shop.

BugBear


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## Mikey R (8 Jan 2009)

dunbarhamlin":1znb276v said:


> How many teeth per inch? Expect this will be a breeze.
> Ash, maple, ebony - bit of a work out, but really satisfying with a good rip saw. The nice thing is, when it's time they're really easy to sharpen.



Its 4.5 TPI, which should be a real step up from my knackered 7 TPI crosscut saw it replaces. 



bugbear":1znb276v said:


> If the picture is accurate, a little time spent with a rasp on the handle arrises would be well spent.
> 
> Making nice handles is expensive for the manufacturers, but quite easy and satisifying in an amatuer's shop.
> 
> BugBear



Cheers BugBear - good tip! When I do this, I'll likely take the whole finish off and refinish in a wipe-on satin poly. Gloss just isnt nice to handle for long periods.


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## bugbear (8 Jan 2009)

Mikey R":eqw9qkpz said:


> Cheers BugBear - good tip! When I do this, I'll likely take the whole finish off and refinish in a wipe-on satin poly. Gloss just isnt nice to handle for long periods.



Careful - it's difficult to totally refinish a handle without removing it, which you may or may not want to do.

BugBear


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## World of Woodworking (2 Oct 2009)

Hi Guys,
I'm new to this site but have read all your comments with interest. If you need any help or advice on saws, please let me know or visit my website: 

www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk
Thanks!


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## head clansman (2 Oct 2009)

hi kate 


hope you don't mind me shortening the name , boat building, fibreglass or wood clinker, you say your an apprentice what does the person who's training you say you should buy? just out of interest .

from the amount of money you wish to spend on tools and your comment about wanting them to be the best your going in the right direction. pay the most you can afford. 

Me well this is my MO, old is good, but so is new. I have never used the new named one like veritase etc all mind are old W Marples brass backs tenon saws, one 6" dovetail saw, a 6" 10" 14" all brassed backs + a very beautiful diston hand saws all excellent choices and have served me very well over many years , having said that i do also own the orange handle throw away jack saw for rough wood or cutting near brickwork which are very sharp. so there you go just a few more name to confuse you even more .

hope this may help you make your choice . hc


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## bugbear (2 Oct 2009)

head clansman":7sbjgp5q said:


> hi kate
> ....



Have you been thinking about this for a long time? The question was posted in 2008 !!!

BugBear


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## head clansman (2 Oct 2009)

hi

oops hc


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