# Students.



## Digit (10 Nov 2010)

Nic to see our future leaders in action isn't it?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Thousa ... tion_Fees_

Roy.


----------



## PeterBassett (10 Nov 2010)

It's nice to see something other than apathy to be honest.

Some stuff needs smashing up. Pity that it won't make any difference!


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2010)

Digit":1ki0dpmv said:


> Nic to see our future leaders in action isn't it?....


Misses the point very neatly!
Poorer families will avoid higher ed, which in turn limits the pool of educated people who may become our future leaders. Instead we will get lumbered with the narrow clique of public school / oxbridge smart-ar**s, such as our present govt.
Come on students - let's see a bit more protest, you've been apathetic for too long!!


----------



## Chems (10 Nov 2010)

Think it depends what Uni you go to. There wasn't a single mention of it at ours an no-one was missing. 

I wonder if there will be any ramifications for those students who have been photographed?


----------



## Digit (10 Nov 2010)

> Misses the point very neatly!



Yes, doesn't it? Like why should they expect people to fund Mickey Mouse degrees anyway Mr G?
I paid for my degree course out of my own pocket, by working!

Roy.


----------



## Max Power (10 Nov 2010)

Too true Roy. A large percentage of those going to universities these days
doing some kind of useless ology should never gone to uni and whats your problem with Oxford and Cambridge Mr Rim the students there will actually have some academic capability


----------



## Digit (10 Nov 2010)

Look at this Allan... 

_Northampton University initially had 250 places available through the clearing system, including such courses as Third World Development with Pop Music, Dance with Equine Studies and joint honours in Waste Management and Dance. 

The clearing web-site also invites school-leavers to consider a Tournament Golf foundation degree at Duchy College in Camborne, Cornwall. 

The two-year course offers students the chance to "improve your tournament golf skills", and its admissions requirements indicate: "No handicap is definitive but the guide parameters are +5 to 3." 

Glyndwr University, in Wrexham, still had 15 places available on its BSc (Hons) in Equestrian Psychology, which "investigates the unique partnership between horse and rider". 

Subjects which were on offer through clearing at the start of last week, but which filled up during the week, included a degree course in Australian Studies, a joint honours degree in Criminology and Pop Music Production, and another combining Geology and Popular Culture. 

Farnborough College of Technology still had places available last week on its two-year foundation degree in Holistic Therapies. 

But if applicants find that course to be full they could turn to Warwickshire College which is offering Beauty Therapies Management, Hairdressing Management and Spa Management courses. 

Writtle College in Chelmsford, Essex, offers a foundation degree in Professional Floristry which covers the "practical and theoretical aspects of floral design". 

There is still one place available on a three-year degree in Theatre Practice: Puppetry at London's Central School of Speech and Drama._ 

...and what value has 'Beckham Studies' in the job market I wonder?

Roy.


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2010)

Digit":2ht8l6ou said:


> ......
> ...and what value has 'Beckham Studies' in the job market I wonder?
> 
> Roy.


I suspect that if you could be bothered to check you would find that most of the courses above would make sense in their particular context.
Such as this, though it's old news now and probably no more.

"Foundation Degrees" also make sense. Good idea in fact, and are designed to get people into work.

A Holistic Therapies course is probably b0llix - but that also depends on context and the actual course content. Potentially a big earner and would get people plenty of work, even if it is b0llix :roll:


----------



## Digit (10 Nov 2010)

You only 'suspect' that, have you checked? 
Would you hire someone with a degree in floristry? Would you pay for it? 
If students wish the state to pay for their courses then the state is entitled to value for their investment wouldn't you say? 
There is an article on the net, naming names, including one who dropped out citing amongst his other difficulties the fact that the poor sod was expected in class 5 day/wk from 9 till 4. Oh golly gosh, oh deary me! 
There was one on TV 'tother day doing 'business studies', 3 day/wk, 4hr/day! 
I did more than that in extra curricular hours! 

Roy.


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2010)

Digit":2qmiguye said:


> You only 'suspect' that, have you checked?


Quick google - try it yourself


> Would you hire someone with a degree in floristry?


No - but then I'm not a florist! If I was then I would probably be very interested.


> Would you pay for it?


If you mean through taxation then yes certainly. I think it's a good idea for people working at whatever level or task, to be trained/educated as far as possible. It makes them better at the job - improves the quality of service that we get from them, and ultimately they pay their way by taxation of their higher earnings


> If students wish the state to pay for their courses then the state is entitled to value for their investment wouldn't you say? ....


Yes - and they get it. Education is an extremely good investment - the Brits have a down on it but we are becoming the new third world; the rising economies of the world are really keen on education.


----------



## Digit (10 Nov 2010)

What benefit the does the state receive from media studies etc when the student drop out rate is currectly running at close to 20%, (the Guardian BTW) with media studies etc working for big Mac.


The idea of your high street florist hiring a graduate to flog Roses at a realistic salary seems highly optomistic to me.



> the rising economies of the world are really keen on education.



Yes indeed, and I doubt that China or India waste state money on Beckham studies do you reckon? When did quantity become more important than quality?
We need engineers, doctors, physicists etc, not holistic practioners.



> trained/educated as far as possible.



Agreed, but engineering grauduates, for example, were reckoned to be useless straight from uni and required practical traning in my time. And for that they need to get a job in the first place.
From a graduate's stand a 2.1 in engineering is a damn sight more jobworthy than a top honours in Art History!

Roy.


----------



## Jacob (10 Nov 2010)

Digit":18v2izwn said:


> ......
> Yes indeed, and I doubt that China or India waste state money on Beckham studies do you reckon?


Did you read the Beckham studieslink? I think it is very likely that China and India would be interested in that side of things as they move into the commercial world of media, entertainment etc. Media studies would go down very well in India - have you heard of Bollywood? Indian film industry is big big business


> We need engineers, doctors, physicists etc, not holistic practioners.


Holistic practitioners would not have the brains to be doctors etc. They still need training in what they do - they've got to earn a living!


> ...
> From a graduate's stand a 2.1 in engineering is a damn sight more jobworthy than a top honours in Art History!
> 
> Roy.


Be a dull old world if only engineers got a bit of education!


----------



## Digit (10 Nov 2010)

Yes, I did read the link, and as few teenagers today will know who Mathews or Wright were I doubt that Beckam will be remembered any longer. Also I rather doubt that a 12 wk course would have made any difference to men like Sir Alf! 



> Holistic practitioners would not have the brains to be doctors etc.


 
Has it not ocurred to you that people take courses that they are interested in? To suggest that someone with the necessary brains to a be a doctor might choose some other career seems to be alien to you. 



> Be a dull old world if only engineers got a bit of education!


 
And where was that suggested? 
Assuming that we had the means etc do you see any point in asking the tax payer to fund a million doctors through university just because a million would be students claim they want to be doctors? 

Roy.


----------



## devonwoody (11 Nov 2010)

And think about the applicants whose GCSE results were at a D level and still apply and get into university. They and their parents are just wanting a life style at everyone's expense.


----------



## Steve Maskery (11 Nov 2010)

devonwoody":ebde24bn said:


> And think about the applicants whose GCSE results were at a D level and still apply and get into university. They and their parents are just wanting a life style at everyone's expense.



I didn't realise that was the case. Do you have a reference for those two claims, DW, I'd be interested.

I think it is a great shame that a very few people yesterday hijacked what was, IIUIC, a peaceful demo. I was also pleased to hear the president of the NUS condemning the violence in unequivocal terms (PM, yesterday).

Re students' working hours - anyone who has done any kind of further or higher education knows that there is the world of difference between timetabled teaching and working time. Depending upon the way the course is structured and the funding available to pay staff, that timetabled schedule can vary enormously. My Bachelor's degree was too long ago to remember, but when I did my MBA we were timetabled 9-5 on M, T, T and F from Sept until Easter. On Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday we did everything else, reading, research, assignments, field visits etc. I had Xmas day off, NYE and NYD (the last two because I was ill) and a whole week at Easter after finishing the last of my assignments and beginning my dissertation. 

I do accept that not all students worked as hard as that, but many - no, I'd say most - of my colleagues did. It was a 7-day week, not a 4-day one.

I agree that there are some odd-sounding courses out there and I, too, have some qualms about them being publicly funded. But, to take one example, if I were an Events Management company, I'd probably value very highly having someone on my staff with a degree in Floristry, especially if the course they had attended gave a grounding in the economics of the industry as well as how to wire a rose. What is economically ridiculous is if we as a nation produce 10000 such graduates every year.

What we need is not less education, it's more jobs.

I just wanted to put a bit of balance into this.
S


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

devonwoody":160zy3tm said:


> And think about the applicants whose GCSE results were at a D level and still apply and get into university. They and their parents are just wanting a life style at everyone's expense.


Yes well state education and health provision are just luxuries which allow the riff-raff to get above themselves and have an easy life. Make the b&&ggers pay!
Bring back the workhouse, slavery, public executions etc etc


----------



## PeterBassett (11 Nov 2010)

Education is essential. As essential as water and air as far as I am concerned. Most of the problems with our society could be fixed if everyone had a higher base level of knowledge and the ability to apply it. It's got to start early.

It is more worthy than, for instance, the armed forces. We currently spend 2.5% of our GDP on the armed forces! 3rd highest expenditure in the world! You're moaning about pineapple STUDENTS!

Those who feel they can learn should be able to do so. End of story. Education should be as accessible as clean water. 

There will always be those for whom academic learning is not applicable and for them we need apprenticeships and at a lower level just simple jobs. McDonalds will always need Johnny no stars.

If when I'd been in college the uni fees per year were £9,000 I expect I would not have gone. £36000 is pretty pineapple steep for a degree don't you think? I'd still be paying it back now, ten years or more later. As it stands I'll be paying back for my education via tax for the rest of my life and I have no problem with that. 

Those who make a go of their lives will pay society back because they will automatically end up earning more.

We *need* engineers. We *need* scientists. We *need* doctors. We *need* florists (but not many)!

And we need for them to *want* to become the next generation of productive members of society.


----------



## Max Power (11 Nov 2010)

Who mentioned health provision Mr Rim? You really shouldn't let your your communist ideology blind you to the facts. The reality is that the country is in such a fcuked up state financially that everyone is going to have to bear their share of the burden.
The days of spend spend spend without a thought to where the mony is going to come from are over


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

There speaks one who sees civilisation itself as an evil communist conspiracy!

And I'm not baring anything - at least not until the weather perks up a bit.


----------



## bugbear (11 Nov 2010)

BugBear


----------



## Max Power (11 Nov 2010)

Couldn't agree with you more Peter, education is vitally important but shouldn't universities be providing first class education in worthwhile subjects to reasonably intelligent people.
I have a friend whos dim daughter did an ology at Manchester and has worked at McDonalds for over ten years, another friends son did a second rate degree at a third rate university and has been a plod for the last five years. Now I understand a degree may be useful if you harbour ambitions of becoming a chief constable but this guy will be very lucky if he reaches the dizzy heights of sergeant before he retires


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Or to put it another way - another turkey voting for christmas.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

That's right Mr G, all or nothing. Is there no happy medium between the workhouse and living on benefits? 
As regards more jobs Pete, the last administration claims to have created over a million. Trouble is that apparently most went to immigrants with better qualifications 'cos so many of our graduates had taken degrees for which employers had no use. 
The student I quoted from the net who was wingeing that he had to do 30 hrs of lectures is someone I wouldn't employ even if he came gold plated. 

Roy. 

PS. 

Take a look at this Pete, see what I mean? Where are the engineers, physicists, electrical engineers, civil engineers etc?


----------



## RogerS (11 Nov 2010)

I seem to remember as a student protesting about Vietnam, racism, apartheid and CND ....things like that. How times have changed.


----------



## PeterBassett (11 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":1grrer4b said:


> but shouldn't universities be providing first class education in worthwhile subjects to reasonably intelligent people.



You do that by making fewer places available for newer fashionable courses and by making the courses themselves harder to get into by raising minimum grade requirements.

You don't do it by making all courses so expensive only the rich can afford them.

You are really in danger of making certian knowledge too expensive to learn. Who will study English, English Literature, Classics or music when it costs £9,000 per year? Note that these are not easy "doss" degrees. 

Courses like these are mostly used to demonstrate an ability to learn at the highest levels. There are not that many English teachers in the world you know. How many people do you know who can speak latin? Would you bother to learn latin if it was costing you £20+ per hour that you know must be paid back?

I hope you will say it is worth learning these esoteric things but the burden of cost should be on the tax payer.

Or should knowledge that is not cost effective be forgotten?  

Pete


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

Pete B. I agree with every word of that and my preference would be for the state to pay for such as you describe and leave student florists to pay their own fees.

Roy.


----------



## Max Power (11 Nov 2010)

Totally agree Peter. Subsidize quality courses that have reasonably difficult entry requirements and let the less academic learn on the job. Surely you can learn to do a bunch of flowers without having to go to university


----------



## RogerS (11 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":237fr2r0 said:


> ... Surely you can learn to do a bunch of flowers without having to go to university



That hits the nail on the head. You only get these weird university courses at third-rate polytechnics...sorry ...'universities'...all part of the last Labour Govts' wild experimental wishful thinking that they foisted on us.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":3eak1sb8 said:


> Totally agree Peter. Subsidize quality courses that have reasonably difficult entry requirements and let the less academic learn on the job. Surely you can learn to do a bunch of flowers without having to go to university


Why don't you have a look at what it is you are actually whingeing on about? 
The florists course is only a 2 year "foundation" and sounds a perfectly good idea to those who want to work in the trade and perhaps run their own business.
http://www.whatuni.com/degrees/courses/ ... etail.html
A good trade course on the face of it. 
I can't see any reason to object at all, or are you all frustrated florists who never had a chance? Poor things! :lol:
You could get on the course yourselves if you really want to - start practicing with some gladioli and try to adopt a positive no-whinging attitude, or you just won't prosper!


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

Ok Mr G the state funds the course for florists. 
Due to the other forums that I grace with my presense :roll: I know people who have made a life long study of UFOs, Fairies, Shamanism, the Aether, and one who has studied for many years the Babylonian culture 'cos he believes that he is a reincarnation of one of the God Kings! 
You've already written of Holistic practitioners so where do we stop/start? 

Roy.


----------



## devonwoody (11 Nov 2010)

Hope this thread doesn't get locked.

Steve Maskery, re GCSE only D's obtained. I was in conversation with some friends and they said their grandson only obtained D results and was refused acceptance for his choice of university. (he wants to be a pilot by the way)

Around ten days later the grandparents were delighted to inform me that the grandson had now found a university place. 

Another situation, a boy the same age as my daughter (now 50 years of age) never worked in his life, he has been getting university places since he was 18 years of age and today we learnt that he is starting another degree course, according to a letter my wife received today. This man has no intention of working and is only using the system. 

Should I be expected to pay taxes to support that lifestyle.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

In a word DW, No!

Roy.


----------



## PeterBassett (11 Nov 2010)

How does he do it though? All the mature students I was at uni with (good bunch) had to pay for their courses.

If he's been at uni for 32 years he is either paying or claiming benefits of some sort that include zero fees.

So either there is no problem at all or the problem lies with the benefits system and not education.

Pete


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Digit":43z3gc9d said:


> Ok Mr G the state funds the course for florists.
> Due to the other forums that I grace with my presense :roll: I know people who have made a life long study of UFOs, Fairies, Shamanism, the Aether, and one who has studied for many years the Babylonian culture 'cos he believes that he is a reincarnation of one of the God Kings!
> You've already written of Holistic practitioners so where do we stop/start?
> 
> Roy.


OK that's a fair question but I wouldn't hazard an answer. 

Certainly these things will be studied as components of psychology or sociology courses - like it or not they are features of human activity.

Your re-incarnated chap might do well to start a philosophy degree, if he isn't already brain dead (then he could try floristry with you lot!) :lol: :lol: 

But most, if not all, the list in that earlier post, probably are quite sensible when you look at the details. The Beckham studies made sense, unexpectedly I agree - but it was only a course title.
You could have an excellent woodwork course and jokingly call it Firewood for Beginners.


----------



## devonwoody (11 Nov 2010)

Peter Bassets

Must be benefits.

His parents are retired civil servants.(one was a probation officer, executive grade) perhaps they are supporting him, I dont know, but he is still costing the system.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

> Certainly these things will be studied as components of psychology or sociology courses


 
With my point being how many sociologist do we need? 
Try this. The GMC should be able to tell the government the required number of qualified doctors the country needs for X yrs into the future. 
Assuming the applicants, by examination, show the necessary skills and aptitudes, IMO they should be funded. 
What I do not accept is that we should fund twice as many as we need. 
Looking at the BBC link, just how many lawyers do we need?

Roy.


----------



## Max Power (11 Nov 2010)

Mr Rim wrote

Bring back the workhouse, slavery, public executions etc etc

Not sure about slavery and the workhouse Mr Rim :shock: but public executions could bring in a healthy revenue and get rid of all the paedophiles etc at the same time :lol:


----------



## PeterBassett (11 Nov 2010)

devonwoody":32lqdyg2 said:


> but he is still costing the system.



Yes, but the fix is not higher fees for degrees because he doesn't seem to be paying them anyway. And if he is paying them, then he can jolly well study what he likes.

Still got to be better than the ones who spend every penny on booze, fags and scratch cards right?


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

Never mind the universities, look at this....

_this is my ******* project bike,for sale as spares or repair as it doesnt run an probably hasnt for sum time,i bought the bike with the intention of restoring it but already have to meny projects on the go so i am making more time for the projects i already have.i would like to sell the bike knowing it will be restord rather than stripd down to make money on as i know these bikes r worth a fair bit in peices.in the box of bits are the carb bodies and sum of bits off them,the side stand,sum electrical components(not alot),parts of the air and battery box,also the foot rests gear and brake leaver,the engine is alltogether it has the clutch fully assembled,gearbox complete,both barells in good condition,will need new pistons as one is missing its rings,it has its oil tank but no oil fed pipes,the oposit side pannel is missing,the seat is their but the base plate is half missing with rust possibly be fixd by good fabricator,the tank is their and altho needs paint wen i tryd it for leaks it did not leak so shud make a good tank,it has the bak wheel but cush drive is missing,sprocets,and the spacers,the engine is also in need of a complete set of bolts to build up properly,i am also advertising this bike else wer so i reserve the right to remove the item if it sells before end of the time.sory if this description is not very good as its my first time selling on ebay if any questions you need answering email me or call or text me ********** thanks colection from buyer only,cash on colection would be preferd._

...okay, before someone points out that the writer could be dyslexic there are spell checkers available.

Roy.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Digit":12x1h0fw said:


> t.
> ...okay, before someone points out that the writer could be dyslexic there are spell checkers available.
> 
> Roy.


His text reads perfectly without any ambiguities. 
He makes spelling mistakes but so what? I find it quite pleasing that it doesn't hold him back and he isn't going to be put off by being jeered at for his spelling.
Good luck to him!


----------



## Steve Maskery (11 Nov 2010)

OK Mr Alien, What have you done with our beloved Jacob? Give him back, I say, give him back!

Personally I find writing of that level so difficult and annoying (OK, not necessarily in that order) that I simply move on. Yes, I know that some people are dyslexic, but so often it's not that that is the cause. If the language is so far removed from "proper" it just becomes a chore to read. If the writer wants me to engage with his or her thoughts, it is incumbent on them to write in a language that I understand.

And now I'm wondering if it's Incumbent or Encumbent.

S


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

> I find it quite pleasing that it doesn't hold him back



Neither would using a spell checker, so why not use one. You might be pleased but would you employ him for his writing ability? Immediately his job prospects are reduced, there's nothing to be pleased with about that!

Roy.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

I only laboured through it Pete 'cos I'm looking for another basket case to rebuild, otherwise I'd have given up.

Roy.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Digit":2ejuf48r said:


> > I find it quite pleasing that it doesn't hold him back
> 
> 
> 
> Neither would using a spell checker, so why not use one.


 A prescriptive spell checker would probably garble it even more so. It reads quite well as it is. He's doing OK really.


> .You might be pleased but would you employ him for his writing ability?
> Roy.


Well of course not - his spelling is appalling. However I might employ him for his obvious confidence and articulacy.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

Years ago I sweated my way into Morse code as part of the Radio Amateur's Exam, now I'm quite happy to see text speak on a text messages Mr G but if I were to write --. --- --- -.. - ...- . -. .. -. --. --- -- how articulate would you consider that and exactly how much effort would you put in decyphering it?
Text speak for texting, Morse code for RT work and plain English for writing please.

Roy.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

SNOBBERY. Plain and simple. 
Some people can spell, some can't. Doesn't make them any less valuable.
As for student fees, I went to university and my fees were paid for. I would be more than happy for some of the revenue raised from my income to go towards funding others' education.
I thought that was the society we lived in, where we all grouped together and helped each other out. 
As for students being layabout good for nothings (which seems to be the general consensus these days), I couldn't disagree more.
Sure, you get some bad eggs, as you do in all walks of life. Don't tar them all with the same brush.


----------



## Chems (11 Nov 2010)

devonwoody":56983o7t said:


> His parents are retired civil servants.(one was a probation officer, executive grade) perhaps they are supporting him, I dont know, but he is still costing the system.



If he never takes a job and begins to earn of 15k per annum, the current threshold he will never have to pay back his tuition loans.

Plus as a mature student, if you have paid tax for 3 years at some point, your eligible for quite a few grants, so it would be a way to get free money.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

Snobbery my foot! My wife can't spell, so she uses a dictionary, any reason why others can't put in the same effort? 



> Don't tar them all with the same brush.


 
Who did? I have been arguing whether the tax payer should support students studying degrees that are unlikely to help their job prospects. 
And should the fear of being considered intolerant mean that society should tolerate any form of behaviour?

Roy.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

Maybe because to them, it may NOT be important. It annoys you, I get that, but in the grand scheme of things it's not really that important. You can still understand what he's saying in the example, so what's the problem? 
Maybe that _you_ had to work a little harder to read it?

As for tarring all students with the same brush - I obviously didn't mean you personally, rather the country as a whole.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

Oh, and by the way, I studied Computer Science at Uni. Now I'm a professional cabinetmaker.
I rarely use my edjumakayshin these days.

There. Linch me. 8)


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

> Maybe that you had to work a little harder to read it?


 
In this country we drive on the right and we expect other drivers to conform to that, if somebody wishes to address others in English I see no reason why they should not conform as well, or perhaps you might be willing to work a little harder and learn Morse code. 
My wife works a little harder to ensure that her spelling is correct, so that others do not have to labour at her efforts, and I ask again why others consider it OK not to bother and pass the buck to the rest of us instead?

Roy.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

--. --- --- -.. / --- -. / -.-- --- ..- .-. / .-- .. ..-. . .-.-.- / .. / .- .--. .--. .-.. .- ..- -.. / .... . .-. .-.-.- / .... --- .-- . ...- . .-. --..-- / -. --- - / . ...- . .-. -.-- --- -. . / .--. .-.. .- -.-. . ... / ... ..- -.-. .... / .. -- .--. --- .-. - .- -. -.-. . / --- -. / -.-. --- .-. .-. . -.-. - / ... .--. . .-.. .-.. .. -. --. / --- .-. / --. .-. .- -- -- .- .-. .-.-.- / .. - .----. ... / -. --- - / - .... . / . -. -.. / --- ..-. / - .... . / .-- --- .-. .-.. -.. .-.-.- / .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / -.. --- -. .----. - / .-- .- -. - / - --- / - .-. -.-- / - --- / .-. . .- -.. / .-- .... .- - / - .... . -.-- .----. ...- . / .-- .-. .. - - . -. / .--- ..- ... - / -- --- ...- . / --- -. .-.-.-


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

BTW Linch is spelt Lynch! :lol: 
And to suggest that cabinet making require less education than other trades or professions might not go down to well with some of our pros on here.

Roy.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

What has morse code got to do with this, by the way? I have neither the need nor the desire to communicate in code. I don't like 'text' speak.
I don't think though that not being able to spell makes you sub human.

Long live the fifth column.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

Digit":1zut7v48 said:


> BTW Linch is spelt Lynch! :lol:
> And to suggest that cabinet making require less education than other trades or professions might not go down to well with some of our pros on here.
> 
> Roy.


Told you I no longer use my edjumakayshin!
When did I imply that cabinetmaking requires less education than other trades? You're clutching at straws mate. Did you not read the bit about me being a pro cabinetmaker?


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

> I don't think though that not being able to spell makes you sub human.



And where was that suggested?
What I have suggested is that some people are too lazy to put in the effort and expect others to do it for them, unless you have an alternative suggestion of course.
The point about the Morse was that I do not expect others to learn it to communicate with me neither do I expect to have to struggle through another's efforts at murdering the English language.

Roy.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

[/quote]When did I imply that cabinetmaking requires less education than other trades?


> > Oh, and by the way, I studied Computer Science at Uni. Now I'm a professional cabinetmaker.
> > I rarely use my edjumakayshin these days.



That may have not been your intent but that is how it reads.

Roy.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

Yebbut just because you place that importance on the English language doesn't mean every one else does/should. I wasn't suggesting you think 'bad spellers' are sub human, but that, above almost all else, seems to get regularly flagged up (see Mooses thread about the bench as an example). 
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. 

In my opinion, education is a privilege and should be the right of every citizen. And I would be happy to pay taxes to that end.
That's all I have to say on the matter.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

> In my opinion, education is a privilege and should be the right of every citizen.



Well there's a good example, it cannot be both a privilege and a right, also we in the UK are not citizens, we are officially 'subjects.'
I also am happy to support education, but I draw the line at 'Holistic Studies.'

Roy.


----------



## rileytoolworks (11 Nov 2010)

You pedantic, pathetic pineapple.


----------



## Chems (11 Nov 2010)

Aces and Eights":18e5ekc2 said:


> I have neither the need nor the desire to communicate in code.



Not even if it was in C?! 

(Can you help with my homework! :ho2 )


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

Pedantic, yes, and there is a reason for it. 
I went to bed at 2 am today 'cos I was in debate with an American group. Due my other interests I talk to people on various continents, some have English about as good as my Punjabi, others have it at graduate level and they can be utterly baffled by colloquial usages 
An example was a report earlier this week by a British Met group that they can predict Atlantic hurricanes, not just for the season, but for years ahead. 
One poor chap was lost, predictions are what you get from a fair ground fortune teller. From the met boys we want forecasts. 
Is it not easier to be correct than keep having to explain? 
And name calling is pointless BTW. 
(Mind you with the record of some of our Met groups predictions is probably pretty accurate!)

Roy.


----------



## Max Power (11 Nov 2010)

Conversing with Americans Roy, now theres a group that can murder the English language :shock:


----------



## chris_d (11 Nov 2010)

I think it is time for some useful facts.

I went to university at the turn of the millennium. My very kind and hardworking parents paid £2K per year in tuition fees and covered my rent. All my other costs were paid out of my student loan and a small income from a job working for a research group at the university.

I left university £13K in debt and can't say that I lived the 'high life'. Without my parents' help, that would have been £33K! :shock: 

I worked my socks off to graduate top of my year in Computer Systems Engineering - I wanted to make sure that I got a good job as a sign of respect and gratitude to my parents who sacrificed so much to support me. My parents were not well off but earned just enough that 'means testing' disqualified them from any relief on the tuition fees. They have the last Labour Government to thank for that as my older sister's fees were funded by a State grant (pre 1997).

My qualification, from an outstanding university, opened the door to a reasonably well paid career in Engineering - I was able to pay off my student loan within my first three years of employment (with a little help from a sad inheritance). However, I don't think that my degree taught me much about being a useful Engineer (I think you either have it or you don't) but it was a fundamental enabler to getting a job in my particular industry sector.

Now here is the punch line - looking back, if I didn't have parental support and the potential debt burden of a degree was nearly £55K (fees at £9K per annum plus other costs) then I simply wouldn't have gone to university!

Whilst at university and subsequently, I have observed friends, cousins and acquaintances etc, who were not really bright enough to gain any real benefit from a degree, going to university simply because they could. Some got State support, some didn't but all of them are saddled with debt of some sort. This is the biggest failure of modern times and is having a profound effect on the wider economy and society - just look how many young adults are still living with their parents, unable to afford housing due to their debts or get a worthwhile job with their dubious degree qualifications. The knock-on effect is that there are very few first time buyers in the housing market, skills shortages in certain key industries and rising unemployment for a whole generation.

I am saddened by the ridiculous notion that almost anyone should go to university since the consequence to date is that the cost of education has risen for all students, regardless of whether their qualification benefits their employability and/or earnings potential.

I absolutely reject the violence shown at the student demonstrations but agree with the notion that £9K per annum will prevent talented and deserving people from achieving their full potential in life. I'm even more frustrated that the current generation of policy makers are those who benefited from a completely free education through the university grant system yet have the audacity to increase fees even more.

*I fully understand that in this age of austerity that cuts need to be made but what should actually be cut is the number of lightweight degree places that do not fundamentally improve the prospects of those attending them yet limit the funds available for supporting the most deserving undergraduates and the truly worthwhile and demonstrably beneficial degree courses leading to real jobs.*


----------



## Max Power (11 Nov 2010)

Very well put Chris =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Chems (11 Nov 2010)

chris_d":3bsml6az said:


> Whilst at university and subsequently, I have observed friends, cousins and acquaintances etc, who were not really bright enough to gain any real benefit from a degree, going to university simply because they could. Some got State support, some didn't but all of them are saddled with debt of some sort. This is the biggest failure of modern times and is having a profound effect on the wider economy and society - just look how many young adults are still living with their parents, unable to afford housing due to their debts or get a worthwhile job with their dubious degree qualifications. The knock-on effect is that there are very few first time buyers in the housing market, skills shortages in certain key industries and rising unemployment for a whole generation.
> 
> I am saddened by the ridiculous notion that almost anyone should go to university since the consequence to date is that the cost of education has risen for all students, regardless of whether their qualification benefits their employability and/or earnings potential.



That is so true. Well said!


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

Couldn't agree more Chris, congratulations on your success and on your efforts. Well done.
PS. I still that Squirrel looks bloody dangerous! Hope he's on our side!

Roy.


----------



## Anonymous (11 Nov 2010)

Aces and Eights":1pm8za4m said:


> What has morse code got to do with this, by the way? I have neither the need nor the desire to communicate in code. I don't like 'text' speak.
> I don't think though that not being able to spell makes you sub human.
> 
> Long live the fifth column.



But didn't you communicate in code a few posts back?

and for those that care it translates to this

Good on your wife. i applaud her. however, not everyone places such importance on correct spelling or grammar. it's not the end of the world. if you don't want to try to read what they've written just move on. 

To suggest that illiteracy is ok, is so very wrong.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

> Conversing with Americans Roy, now theres a group that can murder the English language



Some of the exchanges have been hilarious. I used a fairly common expression on one occasion, 'in and out like a fiddler's elbow,' it was then that I discovered that the expression was unknown on their side of the pond.
Pedantic I may be, but even between British English speakers it all too easy to offend, but when the other person doesn't understand common expressions it can become a mine field.
A Dutch man I speak with put his foot in it in New York when he found that some of the hotel rooms had gold plated bathroom fittings, when he asked at reception for a room 'with golden showers' the girl behind the desk had a fit!

Roy.


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

The problem for me Mark was that I was interested based on the pictures with the text, thus I had to labour through, but I also wonder how many potential purchasers gave up. The vendor wasn't doing himself any favours I feel.

Roy.


----------



## Anonymous (11 Nov 2010)

Digit":1dm4j95e said:


> The problem for me Mark was that I was interested based on the pictures with the text, thus I had to labour through, but I also wonder how many potential purchasers gave up. The vendor wasn't doing himself any favours I feel.
> 
> Roy.



It would make me think twice to reply to an advert riddled with spelling mistakes to be honest.


----------



## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

mark270981":3hl1itr3 said:


> ...
> To suggest that illiteracy is ok, is so very wrong.


Illiteracy and /or poor spelling/grammar is a fact of life for some people. They don't choose. Nothing wrong about it - they shouldn't let it hold them back, or be put off by the "literati" - many of them have buzz all worth saying anyway!
_What_ you say is (or should be) a lot more important than how you say or write and spell it.


----------



## Steve Maskery (11 Nov 2010)

Ah, the aliens have departed! Welcome back, Jacob! 

Actually there is everything wrong with bad spelling, grammar and punctuation. It's wrong because it changes the meaning of things. Is Discrete the same as Discreet? Complimentary the same as Complementary? There the same as Their or Advise the same as Advice? Of course not! I don't want to have to guess at what the writer may have intended to say.

S


----------



## Digit (11 Nov 2010)

> What you say is (or should be) a lot more important than how you say or write and spell it.



Agreed. Always provided of course that your audience can understand you, which is the point at issue here. If they can't, no matter how valuable your contribution might be, you are not going to get it across are you?
I started a new school in Berkshire as a teenager, only to find that my teacher had the broadest Scot's accent I had met, I had to tell him eventually that I couldn't understand a word he was saying!

Roy.


----------



## RogerS (12 Nov 2010)

Steve Maskery":3hoxnz4w said:


> Ah, the aliens have departed! Welcome back, Jacob!
> 
> Actually there is everything wrong with bad spelling, grammar and punctuation. It's wrong because it changes the meaning of things. Is Discrete the same as Discreet? Complimentary the same as Complementary? There the same as Their or Advise the same as Advice? Of course not! I don't want to have to guess at what the writer may have intended to say.
> 
> S



Well said, Steve. I couldn't agree with you more.


----------



## devonwoody (12 Nov 2010)

I have just come back to this thread, ( I shut down evenings)

ChrisD, your post was excellent and summary in my mind was perfect.


----------



## PeterBassett (12 Nov 2010)

Aces and Eights":3b01a00j said:


> Maybe because to them, it may NOT be important. It annoys you, I get that, but in the grand scheme of things it's not really that important. You can still understand what he's saying in the example, so what's the problem?
> Maybe that _you_ had to work a little harder to read it?
> 
> As for tarring all students with the same brush - I obviously didn't mean you personally, rather the country as a whole.





Aces and Eights":3b01a00j said:


> Yebbut just because you place that importance on the English language doesn't mean every one else does/should. I wasn't suggesting you think 'bad spellers' are sub human, but that, above almost all else, seems to get regularly flagged up (see Mooses thread about the bench as an example).
> I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> In my opinion, education is a privilege and should be the right of every citizen. And I would be happy to pay taxes to that end.
> That's all I have to say on the matter.





Aces and Eights":3b01a00j said:


> You pedantic, pathetic pineapple.



1) Spelling is very important.
2) I don't think they are sub human. Just that they need to make the effort.
3) Trolling : Overall C-. Must try harder.


----------



## RogerS (12 Nov 2010)

The question of money prompted me to do a little research. I never got a grant for my first degree. Instead I worked evenings and weekends plus a small loan from the bank each year underwritten by my parents. Cost was about £3000 a year. That was in 1968. In 2008, £3000 equates to £39,000 based on the Retail Price Index or £76,000 based on average earnings.

So suddenly £9000 a year sounds rather good value to me.


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2010)

PeterBassett":39dqn1hf said:


> .....
> 1) Spelling is very important.


I'd omit the "very" - yes but not so important that a bad speller should be discouraged from writing anything, or joining in forums like this.


> 2) ......they need to make the effort.


I think they probably do the best they can - nobody wants to appear to be illiterate if they can help it.
As for discrete/discreet, complementary/complimentary and many other examples - very competent writers can get these wrong - hence the need for proof readers. Just think of the Grauniad. 
TBH I wasn't entirely aware of the differences until they were pointed out - thanks Steve! However I bet they are often interchanged and nobody notices - the context gives the meaning.
I'm bad on too/to, lose/loose, friend/fiend, your/you're etc.


----------



## Pvt_Ryan (12 Nov 2010)

Steve Maskery":ni23gno9 said:


> Ah, the aliens have departed! Welcome back, Jacob!
> 
> Actually there is everything wrong with bad spelling, grammar and punctuation. It's wrong because it changes the meaning of things. Is Discrete the same as Discreet? Complimentary the same as Complementary? There the same as Their or Advise the same as Advice? Of course not! I don't want to have to guess at what the writer may have intended to say.
> 
> S



Agreed, it is the difference between:

Helping your Uncle Jack off a horse 
& 
Helping your uncle jack off a horse

I doubt many would be willing to do the latter..


----------



## RogerS (12 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":3gdis9ry said:


> ......I think they probably do the best they can - nobody wants to appear to be illiterate if they can help it.
> ........



How do you know that? An alternative view is that they don't care and/or are too lazy to even use the spelling checker.


----------



## Anonymous (12 Nov 2010)

For the interests of posting in forums, grammar seems to have fallen by the way side but this most probably generally accepted by other members.

However writing letters to a potential employer or a letter of complaint etc etc, it must be perfect in my opinion as it says a lot about you.

I wouldn't dream of writing a quote for work strewn with errors, as it would look very bad on me, therefore would probably cost me the work.


----------



## big soft moose (12 Nov 2010)

mark270981":vb25cwii said:


> I wouldn't dream of writing a quote for work strewn with errors, as it would look very bad on me, therefore would probably cost me the work.



Dont you mean that you wouldn't dream of writing a quote, strewn with errors, for work (assuming its the quote that would have the errors and not the work :lol: )

and also "it would look very bad* for *you", or "reflect very badly *on* you"


----------



## PeterBassett (12 Nov 2010)

:lol:


----------



## Jacob (12 Nov 2010)

big soft moose":1ujipfqi said:


> mark270981":1ujipfqi said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't dream of writing a quote for work strewn with errors, as it would look very bad on me, therefore would probably cost me the work.
> ...


But you would if that was the best you could do and couldn't get anybody to check it for you. And a client who would reject a quote because of the bad spelling would be an silly person (assuming the quote is for woodwork and not proof reading!)

I don't know why you all find this thread so interesting - I suppose you all enjoy tut-tutting away disapprovingly.


----------



## Pvt_Ryan (12 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":2j2c99yt said:


> big soft moose":2j2c99yt said:
> 
> 
> > mark270981":2j2c99yt said:
> ...



2 things:
1) The errors could cost you money, say 1000mm is £100 and you quote me for 1000m at £100. I accept the quote and pay up front, that is, as far as I know, legally binding (extreme example I know but it's just to emphasise the point).
2) If you have a computer there is NO excuse for spelling errors as both MS Word (non-free) and OpenOffice.org Writer (free) have spell checkers built in.


----------



## Anonymous (12 Nov 2010)

big soft moose":ixlfve2c said:


> mark270981":ixlfve2c said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't dream of writing a quote for work strewn with errors, as it would look very bad on me, therefore would probably cost me the work.
> ...



wat eva trev


----------



## Max Power (12 Nov 2010)

Mr Rim wrote:

"I don't know why you all find this thread so interesting - I suppose you all enjoy tut-tutting away disapprovingly."

You must find it quite interesting yourself as your about the main contributor :lol: :lol:


----------



## big soft moose (12 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1sgrekub said:


> [
> I don't know why you all find this thread so interesting.



Why do you find it interesting ?


----------



## StevieB (12 Nov 2010)

6 pages long and now I find it! I teach in higher education so have a slightly different perspective to most.

To educate a student costs quite alot of money. In the days of the state paying for education and handing out maintenance grants the entire cost of education was paid for by the state. At this time students numbers were low, with only a small percentage of the populous going to university. The conversion of polytechnics to universities in the 1990's led to increasing numbers of students able to go to 'University' and gain a degree. The old universities had more prestige than the newer polys which became universities and higher entrance requirements. Over the last 15 years or so this distinction has been blurred somewhat, student numbers have expanded massively and government introduced targets for the number of people it wanted to go on to higher education - mentions of 50% of the population in fact. Clearly you cannot expand student numbers without increasing the cost, and the state cannot continue to meet that cost. Thus student grants were abolished, fees were introduced, and have now been raised again to a notional 9k.

What is not mentioned so much in the news is that the state was and is still underwriting the cost of educating a student by giving a block grant to universities. The 3k students currently pay is not enough to cover the cost of their education. The rest is made up by the government contribution to universities. This is being stopped in the recently announced funding round, and students are paying more to cover the cost of their education. Universities are no better off, in fact most will be worse off, the money for educating a student now simply comes from a different source - the student and not the government. Government grants to universities have been cut by 80%, the remaining 20% has been redistributed to mainly STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and maths) as these traditionally cost more than humanities degrees or arts degrees as the laboratory components of these are expensive. Graduates in these subjects are also in need by the economy so its a way of pump priming these subjects.

Students see this as having to pay alot for something they thought they were getting for less. What they are actually paying is a realistic price for their education. Will it make them think twice before embarking on a degree - I certainly hope so. Should 50% of people go to university - absolutely not. But as stated in this thread multiple times, a viable alternative needs to be provided either in terms of apprenticeships, vocational qualifications and so on. Too often a degree is seen as something to do to defer getting a job or making a career choice. You should do a degree because it leads to something you want. You shouldn't expect that having a degree gets you a job automatically. Will it exclude people from going to Uni - probably. But until now I don't think most students think properly about why they are doing a degree anyway so thats not always a negative. 

Steve


----------



## Digit (12 Nov 2010)

I think that injects a state of reality and common sense into the debate. Thank you Steve, nicely explained.

Roy.


----------



## Max Power (12 Nov 2010)

Excellent Steve =D>


----------



## RogerS (13 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":30yu9u28 said:


> Digit":30yu9u28 said:
> 
> 
> > t.
> ...



Is this the same Grimsdale who, in a thread over on WWUK, in response to a post by Engineer One said 

Punctuation and spacing a bit better but capital letters missing. Aim for 100 words max. Or I go cross eyed looking at it.

Here's the link

Perhaps the Oxford English Dictionary under their definition of 'hypocrite' should add ' troll' ?


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2010)

RogerS":2irbtovg said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":2irbtovg said:
> 
> 
> > Digit":2irbtovg said:
> ...


 :lol: 
Yep was me. But I was being ironical . E1 has been a world-class long winded ranter, though he's gone a bit quiet lately. Hope he's OK.


----------



## RogerS (13 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":njjt79a6 said:


> RogerS":njjt79a6 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr G Rimsdale":njjt79a6 said:
> ...



ironical? Mmmmm....how convenient.


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":160cl3js said:


> .....
> "I don't know why you all find this thread so interesting - .....
> 
> You must find it quite interesting yourself .....


 Yes I do find these threads slightly compulsive. 
I'm interested in the "whinge culture" typical of the Daily Mail (not alone).
In this thread for instance a lot of middle aged blokes who are probably fairly successful, are bemoaning having to pay for the meagre education of Florists and others. in fact any state provision for those they see as somehow lower than themselves - doing "lightweight degrees" etc etc.
It's a bit tragic IMHO. 
They should be moaning about the real causes of the current economic problems; bankers and the world of unregulated finance.
Bankers bonuses are huge amounts of money even compared to the total cost of state education.

PS and the bankers must be laughing their heads off counting their bonuses and watching us fighting amongst ourselves, blaming florists, tightening our belts and preparing to bear our share of the burden!


----------



## big soft moose (13 Nov 2010)

RogerS":27baaueg said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":27baaueg said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":27baaueg said:
> ...



also the word is *ironic*, not ironical :roll:


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2010)

big soft moose":14uqbgtk said:


> .....
> also the word is *ironic*, not ironical :roll:


 
ironical:
Comically antiquated variation on 'ironic' presently used most often to emphasise the unseriousness of a point. 'Ironical', like many nouns accepting the -ical adjectival suffix (e.g., poetical, hermetical, etc.) fell into disuse in favour of the shorter -ic form (e.g., poetic, hermetic, etc.) in Early Modern English. The anachronistic 'ironical' is therefore most commonly used in current speech to suggest the absurdity of an expression.
_Speaker 1: That...that doesn't make much sense.
Speaker 2: Yes, one might even suspect, for example, that I was being ironical!_


----------



## Anonymous (13 Nov 2010)

big soft moose":s4etp3gj said:


> RogerS":s4etp3gj said:
> 
> 
> > Mr G Rimsdale":s4etp3gj said:
> ...



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ironical


----------



## RogerS (13 Nov 2010)

Aren't we in danger of floccinaucinihilipilification? :wink:


----------



## pren (13 Nov 2010)

I've been following this thread with some interest. 

I went through Uni 2000 - 2003, following a Criminology & Criminal Justice degree. At the time of choosing my degree, I have to say I had no particular desire to follow a career in that field. I think I only took that course because I'd studied law and sociology at A level and found it really interesting. 

My studies were funded by the Student Loans Company. At present I owe them around £9,000. This is repaid when I start earning over £1500 per month, at a rate of 15% of whatever I earn over that level. If I make £1501 in a month, I pay £0.15. 

Since graduating, I have repaid £75 as I've never had particularly well paying jobs. At present, I'm working as a furniture maker/assembler for a caravan company. A good use of my education? No. 

With hindsight, my decision to go through University was ill thought out. At the time, university was seen as a way of continuing the fun lifestyle I'd found as a 6th former. Repaying the student loan was never a major concern of mine at the time. I remember being told that it wasn't a big deal and that it would only be repaid at a low level over a long period. I think this was from one of the reps from the SLC.

Since graduating, I have never used the knowledge I gained at Uni. In this sense, it was a waste of my time and money. However, the social education and personal development I gained was invaluable. I came from a small town where the majority of its inhabitants were very much of the same mould. Anyone who didn't fit into that mould were considered as strangers. In this category, I'd include non-whites, homosexuals, liberals etc..

University forced people together who would never normally meet. I found that most of my preconceptions of different social groups were totally unfounded. I've met some of the people from my town who didn't go to uni. They're still exactly the same as when I left them. Insular, bigoted and generally a bit thick. 

I believe that everyone should be given the chance to be removed from their 'comfort zone' in early adulthood and made to test the preconceptions they have grown up with. Should this necessarily be a university degree at the expense of the taxpayer? No. Can this social expansion and personal development of young adults have a price put on it? Again, no. I'd find it very interesting to see some violent criminality figures illustrating any divide between those who went to university and those who didn't. I'd expect to see a very low percentage of those who attended uni to have a record of 'yobbish, loutish' behaviour. 

My time at uni has taught me to keep an open mind and be accepting of others. I've made some lifelong friends and have learned some extremely valuable 'life skills' that I don't think I could have learned anywhere else. 

yes, I spent a lot of time drinking and getting stoned. Yes, I ate my bodyweight in potnoodles and was generally unhygienic and unhealthy. I also spent a lot of my time involved in very worthwhile activities that expanded my education in ways no degree course could. I volunteered for and then ran the student support service, Nightline for 2yrs. I think this counted for the bulk of my personal development, making me the person I am today. 


I think I've rambled enough now. University is valuable to society, not just in turning out our future doctors, lawyers, engineers etc, but to turning out our future 'model citizens'. If we deny them this for the sake of money, where does that leave us? Financially rich yet socially bankrupt? perhaps.


----------



## gnu (13 Nov 2010)

Was it Ronald Reagan who said that college gave him the chance to play football for another 4 years.


----------



## Digit (13 Nov 2010)

> In this thread for instance a lot of middle aged blokes who are probably fairly successful, are bemoaning having to pay for the meagre education of Florists and others. in fact any state provision for those they see as somehow lower than themselves - doing "lightweight degrees" etc etc.


 
What a fatuous load of rubbish! Lower than themselves? My father was a labourer. If the florist's eduction is so meagre perhaps they should save the fees and get a job instead! Fairly successful? Well I own my own house, my car, 10 yrs old, my motor bike, 30 yrs old and I'm on a state pension. 
When you hand your cash across a counter you expect something in return, what do you get for funding holistic studies? 
Please explain? 

Roy.


----------



## RogerS (13 Nov 2010)

Digit":qjjatvbp said:


> .....what do you get for funding holistic studies?
> .....
> 
> Roy.



A nice massage ? :wink:


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2010)

Digit":32kuqpbc said:


> ....what do you get for funding holistic studies?
> Please explain?
> 
> Roy.


Don't be lazy. Go and find out yourself and tell us what you come up with. :lol:


----------



## Digit (13 Nov 2010)

In other words you're dodging my question. You have already in fact stated your view on holistic studies which is why I chose that. You were agin it!
In other words you object to funding those 'lightweight degrees' that you object to then castigate others for making the same stance.
There's a word for that!

I can get a better one from the local massage parlour Rog and no degree involved! (Is there?) 



Roy.


----------



## Noel (13 Nov 2010)

Guys, two in particular, stop the baiting and trying to wind others up.


----------



## Digit (13 Nov 2010)

I'm not trying to bait anybody Noel nor wind anyone up as it happens.

Roy.


----------



## Noel (13 Nov 2010)

In the 2 posts I dumped from your goodself and Roger I think you were.


----------



## Digit (13 Nov 2010)

You, like Mr G, are entitled to your opininon Noel, that does mean that I was attempting to do what you assumed does it?
A perfectly sensible debate where people don't keep changing their view point from one side to 'tother would suit me well.

Roy.


----------



## big soft moose (13 Nov 2010)

Digit":39z2tybn said:


> When you hand your cash across a counter you expect something in return, what do you get for funding holistic studies?
> .



you get to keep the little blighters off the dole for three years - thus enabling the government to show lower unemployment figures, then when they graduate they can get jobs for which ten years ago you didnt need a degree.


----------



## Jacob (13 Nov 2010)

In point of fact these freaky holistic therapists make a bomb and are quite likely to be paying back their student loans pronto, and then repaying the community through income tax. I've got some friends who went into it (mid life career change, massage, crystal healing, other bollix) and they are now filthy rich and don't talk to me anymore (I'm a dogmatic sceptic!)
If that's what "holistic studies" entail of course. It might be something quite different. Why don't you find out as you are all so interested? instead of just bleating on about it!


----------



## Digit (13 Nov 2010)

> Why don't you find out as you are all so interested?



I'm not, I simply pointed out that earlier you dismissed it as a lightweight then castigated the rest of us for the same stance.
Now you've changed tack yet again.

Roy.


----------



## big soft moose (13 Nov 2010)

it appears that some "holistic studies" courses do basically comprise learning crystal therapy and other such bollux - why you need a degree for that is anyones guess

however other holistic studies courses are the study of various subjects along the tenets of holistic education described thus



> Holistic education is a philosophy of education based on the premise that each person finds identity, meaning, and purpose in life through connections to the community, to the natural world, and to humanitarian values such as compassion and peace. Holistic education aims to call forth from people an intrinsic reverence for life and a passionate love of learning. This is the definition given by Ron Miller, founder of the journal Holistic Education Review (now entitled Encounter: Education for Meaning and Social Justice). The term holistic education is often used to refer to the more democratic and humanistic types of alternative education. Robin Ann Martin (2003) describes this further by stating, “At its most general level, what distinguishes holistic education from other forms of education are its goals, its attention to experiential learning, and the significance that it places on relationships and primary human values within the learning environment.” (Paths of Learning)
> 
> The concept of holism refers to the idea that all the properties of a given system in any field of study cannot be determined or explained by the sum of its component parts. Instead, the system as a whole determines how its parts behave. A holistic way of thinking tries to encompass and integrate multiple layers of meaning and experience rather than defining human possibilities narrowly.



eitherway its a load of lightweight dung which imo shouldnt be tax payer funded as a degree course


----------



## Digit (20 Nov 2010)

I spotted a report today informing us that hence forth exam papers will be marked down for poor spelling and grammar. 

Roy.


----------



## pren (20 Nov 2010)

Digit":nzxspwmb said:


> I spotted a report today informing us that hence forth exam papers will be marked down for poor spelling and grammar.
> 
> Roy.



This was the case in my exams at Bangor Uni 10yrs ago. 5% of the final mark was spelling and grammar. Allowances were made for those with learning difficulties.

Where did you see the report?


----------



## Digit (20 Nov 2010)

Daily Mail and here...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politi ... ph_Reports

Roy.


----------

