# (another) First workbench questions



## Togalosh (15 May 2012)

Hello Gents,

I have put up with an inherited workbench for long enough now & really need to step up my game & make a proper one. I have looked at a few threads & I still have a few questions.

1) Bench dogs are 19mm but hold fasts are 22 or 23mm but all benches have 1 size hole as far as I can see - what hole diameter is needed?

2) Wood selection? Some benches are made of just one (species?) wood while others use a mixture - is it cost or structural characteristics of the wood that determines the choice of what wood to use where?

I can get cheap oak (green) & so I was going to use that but no one seems to use oak, is there a particular reason for this?

3) Can you please recommend a book/DVD that can answer my questions & more? I have writen a list of names from the previous threads that I'm looking up online but my life passes by so fast in front of a computer I'd rather get a book..but I've a lot of duff books.

Thanks in advance for any advise.


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## Togalosh (15 May 2012)

I now see some dogs & hold fast that are the same 3/4"...


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## marcros (15 May 2012)

I would have a look at the Chris Schward book. It is about £8.50 on amazon if I remember correctly. There is also one by Landis which some people like- I have yet to read this.

You seem to have answered your question about bench dogs and hold fasts. We have a group buy on here, if you do a search. They are 3/4" and are considerably cheaper than others on the market.

Wood selection- a combination of cost and asthetics more than anything. A work bench is a tool above most other considerations. Some people prefer their tools to be pretty as well as functional. You could use pretty much anything- beech is traditional in Europe because it wasplentiful and cheap. In the USA, yellow pine is popular in places- and is cited by Schwarz in his book. This is again because it is cheap and plentiful where he is. There is very little timber that wouldnt be suitable at all- some is more suitable than others. 

Green oak is one of those that is not suitable, well green timber in general because it will move all over the place as it dries. Oak, would make a good bench, although it is considerably more expensive than other options.


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## Togalosh (17 May 2012)

Hi Marcos... thanks for the reply.

I have big gaps in my knowledge & so what types of wood are best for specific situations/jobs is one of them. Pine for a bench does crop up a lot but it'd have to tight grained (figured) to fold a dog for long I recon... I'm in the 'tool above aethethics' camp but perhaps a pretty bench would get me to be more considered in the way I work.

I'll check out those books & the group buy thing..I've not seen that bit yet - thanks again.


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## No skills (17 May 2012)

Why not mix and match to meet your needs, large section softwood for your bench frame but with a hardwood top?


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## marcros (18 May 2012)

you could make a perfectly good bench from all softwood. The top may not last as long, but are you going to be using it all day every day in order to wear it out in the next few years. If you are, just replace the top.

Horses for corses- hardwood, softwood, ply, sleepers, there are examples benches made of all of these on the forum if you search. My personal choice was hardwood, but a solid door pblank topped with mdf (as a cost saving comprimise). I then got bench envy and found a few pennies to top the door in hardwood instead. I was lucky, I managed to get a great deal on some hardwood- both the initial purchase, and for the top from a different place. If I hadnt done so, it would have been made from unsorted softwood.


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## Togalosh (18 May 2012)

I had seen an mdf topped bench but thought it'd last no time at all but it must serve a purpose.. but I'd also seen a lot of really swish ones & thought they look unused & so even more pointless (unless they are extra careful workers)...as you say it's about needs, cash flow & ego

I think I have also gathered a bit of bench envy myself too..perhaps a workbench photo gallery is needed.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to me.

Take it easy.


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## Benchwayze (19 May 2012)

Togalosh":1x4442tn said:


> I had seen an mdf topped bench but thought it'd last no time at all but it must serve a purpose.. but I'd also seen a lot of really swish ones & thought they look unused & so even more pointless (unless they are extra careful workers)...as you say it's about needs, cash flow & ego
> 
> I think I have also gathered a bit of bench envy myself too..perhaps a workbench photo gallery is needed.
> 
> ...



Have a word with RichardT for excellent hold-fasts. And 3/4" holes are the way to go for his Hold-fasts. 

MDF will serve you as well as anything, if you don't plan on stripping down engines on your bench. (My son did that on mine while I was on holiday a few years back. 8) )


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## sometimewoodworker (21 May 2012)

The first, and most important, question is what do you mainly intend to use it for?

As there are very different answers for hand tool use compared to power tools. 

My bench is mostly for power tools & I would replace it with the same style again. It isn't a hand tool bench. The story is at http://meekings.selfip.com/nui/Groups-of-photos/Wood_work_etc/Pages/Workbench.html


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## Togalosh (17 Jun 2012)

Now - sliding pegs/tool rests are very clever yet so simple ! 

I'm about to order Workbench Design by Chris' Swartz & sometime soon loads of double chunky larc (RichardT's holdfasts are in progress).

...I'm keen to figure out why all the benches I see are so narrow - how do people glue up table tops or anything remotely sizeable ? Do they have another assembly bench & keep the workbench for just working wood?


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## marcros (17 Jun 2012)

you will/may find that too wide a workbench means that the back is cluttered with rubbish. Mine is 21" and it was the best decision I made. It was tempting to make it as wide as possible, but if I was to build another, it might even be as narrow as 18". 

Ask yourself, how much of your kitchen worktop do you actually use and how often do you push things to the back and leave them there?


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## Benchwayze (17 Jun 2012)

Togalosh":2n5xg6ys said:


> ...I'm keen to figure out why all the benches I see are so narrow - how do people glue up table tops or anything remotely sizeable ? Do they have another assembly bench & keep the workbench for just working wood?



Short answer is: 

Yes Tog. 

In my case it's a pair of 'A' trestles and a sheet of 25mm MDF that I use on the drive. The only drawback is I can't assemble if it's tipping it down.


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## tomthumbtom8 (25 Jun 2012)

wood it be cost affective to get the green Oak kiln dried for your work bench. ??

interested in this as I came to the same conclusion and started LOOKING on Ebay for timber 

NO BEECH really to chose from but plenty of Green Oak

Thinking of making the bench from the woodwhispers 

Tom


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## marcros (25 Jun 2012)

Tom

For timber, I would give up on ebay. Unless you can find it locally, the carriage will be very expensive, and prices seem to be above retail anyway- probably for the sake of convenience. Dont be obsessed by beech either- yes it is widely used, but that is because it is relatively cheap and plentiful, or once was.

There will be somebody local to you that will hopefully chip in with their favoured local supplier. Ring around a few local places, tell them what you are making and ask what they have that would be suitable. Make sure it is in stock- many places will happily get you anything you want but it gets very expensive to get a few boards of even the cheapest non stock timber in. For guidance, look at the likes of ash, beech, oak. I wouldnt rule out the idea of using softwod for the frame and hardwood for the top or softwood for the lot. If you are looking for softwood, ask if they have "unsorted". some builders merchants may stock it (some Travis Perkins used to, I dont know if they still do), timber merchants should stock it.

If you do some searches on the forum, there are some great benches- both traditional and otherwise. There is certainly one that was made from new railway sleepers that looked fantastic. They may also inspire your timber choices.

The advantage of a work bench is that it doesnt need to fit with other furniture. Whilst you may not be able to get away with using cheaper timber in the house, where the wife demands that she wants the coffee table made from finest walnut, at least on this one you can use whatever you choose!

HTH
Mark


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## DTR (25 Jun 2012)

marcros":tziejlow said:


> If you are looking for softwood, ask if they have "unsorted". some builders merchants may stock it (some Travis Perkins used to, I dont know if they still do), timber merchants should stock it.



Dumb beginner question #264: what is meant by "unsorted"?

Thanks (hammer)


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## marcros (25 Jun 2012)

contrary to common sense, it is what is left after they have taken the worst of it out, and so is an unsorted mixture of the best few grades! It should therefore be pretty knot free.


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## tomthumbtom8 (25 Jun 2012)

Mark 
Thank you for the heads up on the railway sleepers

I found the post for the bench really nice Job

any way here is the link
railway-sleeper-workbench-wip-t52190.html

Tom


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## DTR (25 Jun 2012)

marcros":42la8o5g said:


> contrary to common sense, it is what is left after they have taken the worst of it out, and so is an unsorted mixture of the best few grades! It should therefore be pretty knot free.



I see, thanks


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## Tony Spear (25 Jun 2012)

Togalosh":3092xfyz said:


> I had seen an mdf topped bench but thought it'd last no time at all but it must serve a purpose........ it's about needs, cash flow & ego



The MDF top is normally sacrificial, replaced every so often.

Most cost effective solution is probably unsorted redwood for the whole thing with MDF top as above.

Most important is that the design suits you and it's sturdy! 

(Says he, who's still using an ancient bench made from heavy duty Dexion frame, topped with softwood and MDF and bolted to the wall at the back!  )


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## eoinsgaff (13 Jul 2012)

I think that Oak is not suitable for a bench top. The tannins in the oak react with ferrous metals so hardware such as holdfasts, vices and some tools would cause problems. I'd definitely recommend Chris Schwartz's book. Its a good read and even if you do not use his designs, his analytical approach will make your own decisions easier.


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## DTR (13 Jul 2012)

I read recently that Haywood recommended against oak for a workbench because it splinters too easily.

My own bench has a softwood top, and I must say that using Richard's holdfasts has deformed the dog holes somewhat. The holes are still usable but the dogs (even though fitted with ball catches) will no longer support themselves in some of the holes.


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## Benchwayze (14 Jul 2012)

Oh Dear Dave!

Now I am wondering! 

Although, as I intend to use the holes mostly for hold-fasts, I can stay with softwood. The only other answer I can think of is a sleeve of electrical conduit, epoxied in and sunk about 1/2" below the bench surface. So it looks like I have some experimenting to do in scrap. to work out the right size drills! 

Glad you mentioned this one Dave, as it allows me to plan ahead! 
Thanks buddy.


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## Benchwayze (14 Jul 2012)

eoinsgaff":2mrsjpbx said:


> I think that Oak is not suitable for a bench top. The tannins in the oak react with ferrous metals so hardware such as holdfasts, vices and some tools would cause problems. I'd definitely recommend Chris Schwartz's book. Its a good read and even if you do not use his designs, his analytical approach will make your own decisions easier.



You have a point Eoin. 

Although I can't say any of my tools have ever been affected by oak, when working with the stuff. For sure we have to be careful with oak (During the actual working) to keep water away, as moisture causes the tannins react badly with ferrous metals. 

I do always take the precaution of wiping my tools down with a spot of 3 in 1 though, whenever I am finished with an oak project. But as said, I never had a problem, either with the timber or my tools. 
HTH


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## Noel (14 Jul 2012)

DTR":3awpjpar said:


> I read recently that Haywood recommended against oak for a workbench because it splinters too easily.
> 
> My own bench has a softwood top, and I must say that using Richard's holdfasts has deformed the dog holes somewhat. The holes are still usable but the dogs (even though fitted with ball catches) will no longer support themselves in some of the holes.



Sink and glue in some hardwood blocks/dowels etc and re-drill.


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## DTR (14 Jul 2012)

Benchwayze":1dm2zduo said:


> Glad you mentioned this one Dave, as it allows me to plan ahead!
> Thanks buddy.



I hope it helps. Interesting idea re using conduit. I look forward to hearing how your experiments go.




Noel":1dm2zduo said:


> Sink and glue in some hardwood blocks/dowels etc and re-drill.



A fine suggestion. I must say though it is no more than a minor inconvenience at the mo. All I have to do is hold the dog in place until I've pinched the work up to it. I plan on building a new bench at some point anyway, and that will have a hardwood top.


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## Benchwayze (14 Jul 2012)

How about I should include a couple of hardwood (Ash?) battens in the top, where the holes are to be drilled? Might have problems with different rates of drying of the timber though.  

On the other hand, I could stretch to using Ash overall, for the top and make it removable, so it's not glued to the base-frame.
:mrgreen:


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## Phil Sewell (15 Jul 2012)

My idea with the top is to have the front part where you do any pounding as hardwood (mine is ex 4" iroko) but use mdf for the back part, making it easily removed for changing when damaged. I use a machine bed if I need a flat surface, solid bench tops never stay flat. 

I also made mine quite tall, I thought too tall to start with but I'm used to it now and it helps with my back, to a degree anyway. I use a seperate table I have made for assembly work, 8' by 4' with a 25mm mdf top. The legs fold up and I have a pulley system to hoist it up into ther roof if I'm doing a large job needing floor space.

One thing with the bench which i have to rectify is a slight amount of racking when hand planing. This surprised me as I have a wide rail at the back. I would also suggest no rail under the front of the top, I'm always cramping here.

Here it is on my website if of any interest

http://finehandmadeboxes.co.uk/the%20work%20bench.htm 

I'm generally pretty pleased with it (big improvement on the last one). I wish I'd put in more dogs nearer the end vices though, save so much winding in and out!

P.


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## Benchwayze (15 Jul 2012)

Nice bench Phil. 

My present top is what's left of some laminated Philippine Mahogany boards. (Luan) It's very soft and the grain is all ways. It has also taken a beating . (My son fixed his car engine on it, when I was on holiday one year! ) 

I think you might have something regarding wooden bench tops not staying flat, but we do need them as flat possible for planing on. Also, I have to use the bench to level chair legs (for example). No other surface big enough! 

Racking is something I don't get, as the end of the bench nestles in the angle of the wall and a brick-buttress. So nothing moves. But it's time for a new 24" wide bench as the extra 6" space I'd gain, would make a noticeable difference in my single-garage shop.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2012)

The remedy for racking is an apron. It is difficult to make those continental style benches rigid enough without bracing or aprons. Another hostage to fashion!
You don't need to ge too carried away by flatness IMHO - it's the top of a board you are planing, not the underside, which if as yet un-planed could be very irregular and gain nothing from a flat bench top.


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## Phil Sewell (15 Jul 2012)

Thanks John,

I'm fortuneate to have some big old machines to use for flat bases. I need to put some diagonal braces in to stop the racking but it's one of those jobs that's not top of the "to do" list. Worth the op thinking about possibly bracing as he is starting from scratch.

I'm trying to get my head around sketch up to try and present better drawings for potential clients at the moment. I can't find enough time to really sit down and get into it!

P.


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## Phil Sewell (15 Jul 2012)

Jacob,

I have a something like a 10" rail at the back of the bench below the top which is bolted to the legs and the whole thing weighs a ton so I was surprised to get any racking. It's only a slight amount but I would like to eliminate it. I have used a bench with a front rail (when I was an employee) and found it very restricting re using cramps at the front edge of the top.

In my opinion benches are very personal things and you really have to use one for a while to find out how it does or doesn't work for you.
My first one was a maple bench with drawers. I found I didn't need the top to be all solid maple and the drawers and the tool well just filled up with dust and shavings. The end vice didn't work for me either. I have done away with drawers and tool well with the new bench and changed the end vice to one which is incorporated into the top. Not my idea, got it from the Landis bench book, but it's a big improvement.
P.


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## Benchwayze (15 Jul 2012)

Phil Sewell":61khg7np said:


> Thanks John,
> 
> I'm fortuneate to have some big old machines to use for flat bases. I need to put some diagonal braces in to stop the racking but it's one of those jobs that's not top of the "to do" list. Worth the op thinking about possibly bracing as he is starting from scratch.
> 
> ...



Phil, 

I prefer to draw 'artistic' representations myself. On occasion I have done a watercolour drawing, for people I made stuff for. But as I don't do that kind of work any more, I just use a postcard or a table napkin!!!
I did use fag packets until I gave up smoking!!! 

It's always nice though to have a flat benchtop. I usually ditch any twisted boards anyhow, and if I am going to plane a face side, then I put the flattest side downwards on the bench. Rarely, I need to pack underneath of course. 

But since my spondulitis got really bad, I bought a planer/thicknesser. Now, I make one side nice and flat, then thickness it. That way most of my hand-planing is done during finishing, or edge jointing. So maybe I could even use a top that is in winding; and when my back hurts, I could always lean on the apron! Problem is they get in the way when reaching for stuff under the bench. So many designs and mods eh? 
:wink:


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## tomthumbtom8 (15 Jul 2012)

P 
Try sketch up warehouse they may have a drawing of a bench ??


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## Phil Sewell (15 Jul 2012)

Phil, 

I prefer to draw 'artistic' representations myself. On occasion I have done a watercolour drawing, for people I made stuff for. But as I don't do that kind of work any more, I just use a postcard or a table napkin!!!
I did use fag packets until I gave up smoking!!! 



Good idea Jon with the water colour sketch as a presentation drawing. Trouble is my sketching leaves a lot to be desired!
I was amazed at an image of a box Ian Hawthorne posted that he had done in sketchup, rendered with something else I think but so life like.

We are digressing a bit from the original op's question!
Might start a new post asking how people present designs to potential clients.
Phil.


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