# So I bought a cheap scroll saw...



## Baldwyn (4 Aug 2021)

I bought this cheap and the blade seems to be upside down, it seems a bit of a potch to undo the bottom clamp. Am I missing something? 

Seems quite well made though



...


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## Baldwyn (4 Aug 2021)

Any thoughts? I'm not brave enough to undo the bottom clamp. What sort of thickness is a machine like this be able to cut? All help appreciated


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## Oraclebhoy (5 Aug 2021)

Looks similar to the one I bought years ago, the blades are locked in place, if I remember you have to take the bottom cover off to get in. I ended up getting a kit to make it use pin blades (been years since I did it so may have the name wrong) these ones you just removed the tension and they could be replaced.
Much easier but I never had any success with it so gave it away.


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## Baldwyn (5 Aug 2021)

I plucked up the courage to take of the side panel and swap the blade around. Good little machine, really pleased with it


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## AES (5 Aug 2021)

Thickness the machine will handle (subject to blade choice and its tension) is pretty much whatever you can get under the arm while still allowing the blade to go up and down! (And I'm NOT trying to take the mickey mate). Don't know this particular machine but it looks VERY similar to loads of scroll saws out of the same "one or few" Chinese factories, differences being limited to the name badge, the colour, and a few extra goodies included/not included.

At a guess I'd say that machine will happily cut about one inch (25 mm) thick - note caveat re blade and tension above - perhaps a little bit thicker.

If you're new to this lark, have a look at the sticky at the top of this section detailing lots of blade sizes/types from several manufacturers. Included is a downloadable "general table" which is a good starting point for what size blade to use on different thicknesses and types of wood. I found that table useful at the start of my scrolling "career".

HTH


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## scrimper (5 Aug 2021)

Providing you did not pay much for it then it will be fine as long as you don't want to do any intricate designs with lots of internal cuts. 
As AES says this is a cheap Chinese made machine sold under a plethora of guises. 

I tell you what annoys me is that Record was once a 'grade one' manufacturer of top quality products made in the UK, machines that would last a lifetime. Some years ago they were taken over by a US company who promptly closed down the UK manufacturing and simply bought cheap far east items and stuck their logo on with the words Sheffield England basically to make people think that they were buying a quality British made product, personally it disgusts me as it is deceptive.

The saw you have is fine for general woodworking but will be very frustrating to use if you want to do intricate fretwork.

I do cover the subject of these saws in my videos on buying a scroll saw.


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## Baldwyn (6 Aug 2021)

Fair play for posting up responses. According to the side of the machine it mad arou 2001. Does that change your view on it's quality. I reckon it'll get me through the basics and then I'll get a Hegner if I find limitations. I did watch the video by Scrimper, very good actually


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## Baldwyn (6 Aug 2021)

The blade tensioner is in a good place as per the Hegner in part 2 of the video. The blade change is nowhere near as good


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## Stuart Moffat (6 Aug 2021)

If the blade is upside down you simply must turn it over! The cutting stroke should pull the wood against the table, not lift it into the air. You can tell if (with it turned off) rub your finger up and down the blade. It should bite your skin as you raise your finger, and as you lower it. You need to get used to changing blades anyway. They break particu when your learning.


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## whatknot (6 Aug 2021)

I can't see from your photo but these usually come with two "hanger type" blade clamps for pinless blades, which assemble off the saw, there are guide recesses usually on the top arm to get the length right 

Or does yours have fixed blade clamps? which may have been added later by someone 

I have basically one of the same saws but Scheppach badged, they retail from about £70 up to £200 for more or less the same saw

Easy to use for pinned blades, a bit of a pain for pinless , other than that they do a job of work for not a lot, I paid £20 for mine


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## scrimper (6 Aug 2021)

Baldwyn said:


> Fair play for posting up responses. According to the side of the machine it mad arou 2001. Does that change your view on it's quality. I reckon it'll get me through the basics and then I'll get a Hegner if I find limitations. I did watch the video by Scrimper, very good actually



Afraid it does not change my view on the quality of your saw. When Record first offered a scroll saw they were made by RBI, their machine was named as a Hawk and was very good quality, the Record version was green rather than red but as you can see from the image below it has no resemblance to the Chinese made saws that Record offered later. Sorry to be negative however if you got the saw cheap it's worth having.


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## Baldwyn (6 Aug 2021)

I would say it was negative. It sounded like an honest appraisal. I couldn't ask for more than that... So thank you


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## Baldwyn (6 Aug 2021)

whatknot said:


> I can't see from your photo but these usually come with two "hanger type" blade clamps for pinless blades, which assemble off the saw, there are guide recesses usually on the top arm to get the length right
> 
> Or does yours have fixed blade clamps? which may have been added later by someone
> 
> ...




Yeah, it's currently got a painless blade and tbh, I think I will try pinned. I'm not doing anything that needs the sophistication of a high end saw. Hopefully this will be adequate. Probably pay for itself pretty quick


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## whatknot (7 Aug 2021)

Pinned blades are fine for a lot of jobs, its when you get to finer work that pinless come into their own as you cannot easily get a pinned blade through the hole drilled for all inside cuts

One thing to bear in mind though, pinned blades are roughly twice the price of pinless, if you are using a large number it can add up 

You can get aftermarket conversion kits for pinless blades (Olson for example) but don't think much of them personally, I would rather use the cash to put towards a better saw

Or you can make a couple if you have the kit to do so 

Axminster sell clamps that will fit yours for about ten quid but there are mixed reviews on them (although I suspect most problems are user made) 

If you decide you want to do more intricate projects, really the only satisfactory answer is to upgrade to a better saw 

PS there are pinned blades and then there are pinned blades, the DIY store type are rather agricultural, Pegas do much finer pinned blades as well as pinless, they are a massive improvement on the generic type pinned blades




Baldwyn said:


> Yeah, it's currently got a painless blade and tbh, I think I will try pinned. I'm not doing anything that needs the sophistication of a high end saw. Hopefully this will be adequate. Probably pay for itself pretty quick


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## Baldwyn (7 Aug 2021)

whatknot said:


> Pinned blades are fine for a lot of jobs, its when you get to finer work that pinless come into their own as you cannot easily get a pinned blade through the hole drilled for all inside cuts
> 
> One thing to bear in mind though, pinned blades are roughly twice the price of pinless, if you are using a large number it can add up
> 
> ...



I've got a feeling (I haven't checked...) That it'll take both. I'm in agreement with most of the thread, thanks for the tip on blade quality


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## whatknot (7 Aug 2021)

It will certainly take both types of blades, pinned are very easy to change



Baldwyn said:


> I've got a feeling (I haven't checked...) That it'll take both. I'm in agreement with most of the thread, thanks for the tip on blade quality


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## Baldwyn (8 Aug 2021)

.


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## Baldwyn (8 Aug 2021)

I'm still unsure about blade sizes. Some general purpose blades for cutting shapes into hardwood 9-18mm would be what number blade and tpi please.

If anyone could help me with this it will help me stop throwing good money after bad

I was thinking something like these:









Pegas 90-6x6 Assorted High Speed Wood Cutting Scroll Saw Blade Blades Pack of 36 | eBay


Bandsaw Blades. 1 Pair Planer Blades. Electric hand planer blades. Electric Hand Planer Blades. Circular Saw Blades. Serrated Cutter Blanks. scroll saw blades are 130 mm (5 in) long. The Highest Quality Carbon Steel Scroll Saw Blades.



www.ebay.co.uk


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## AES (8 Aug 2021)

Link coming up - got to find it as it seems you haven't. Wait a mo. I don't know how to refer to another thread while holding this one open, sorry.

Edit for P.S. Here -

View attachment No_Fail_Blade_Chart_206122387.pdf

As said before, it's one of several downloadable info charts detailing who makes what sorts of blades and some places to buy them. But the one linked above is a general guide as to what size of blade to use with what types and sizes of wood and does not deal with specific makes of blade - just sizes/types. It comes from a sticky at the 2nd or 3rd thread down at the top of THIS (Scrolling and Scroll Saw) section, as I said before.

Note that it's a "general guide" - IMO no one can tell you exactly what size/type of blade to use for what job - it turns out to be a matter of personal preference/comfort - IMO anyway. But that table should at least get you into the right ball park as far as not getting something far too fine (or too coarse) for whatever work it is you want to do.

Do I assume correctly that despite my earlier suggestion that you look at that sticky that in fact you didn't bother to look - or am I being unfair?


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## Baldwyn (8 Aug 2021)

AES said:


> Link coming up - got to find it as it seems you haven't. Wait a mo.




I've got the one with the pdf but it talks about numbers not tpi. I have looked, honestly.


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## AES (8 Aug 2021)

OK, sorry, yes, that's one of the problems with scroll saw blades generally. BUT some of the other charts, while not giving an exact "translation" between blade number and blade TPI WILL once again get you into the right ball park. Try the Pegas blades charts. Basically the higher the number the coarser (i.e. the lower the number of TPI).

HTH


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## Baldwyn (8 Aug 2021)

AES said:


> OK, sorry, yes, that's one of the problems with blades generally. BUT some of the other charts, while not giving an exact "translation" between blade number and blade TPI WILL once again get you into the right ball park. Try the Pegas blades charts. Basically the higher the number the coarser (i.e. the lower the number of TPI).
> 
> HTH



Thanks for the reply. I looked at the threads, numerous videos on YouTube and couldn't find anything that definitive. All I want to know is what blades to use on hardwood from about 9-18mm and is the link I posted suitable. Asking in good faith


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## AES (8 Aug 2021)

OK, I got the following info (I did NOT know it before!) from looking at 2 charts in the sticky mentioned.

The first chart was the "No Fail Blade Chart" and the second was the first of the two Pegas (manufacturer name) charts:

"No Fail" says for "Dense Hardwood between three quarters and one inch thick" (i.e. roughly the 9 to 18 mm thickness you're talking about) you should try a Reverse Tooth or Spiral Blade, Numbers 5, 6, or 7. The first Pegas chart tells us that their Spiral blades are No. 5 = 35 TPI, No. 6 = 34 TPI, and No. 7 = 28 TPI.

As said I found that out with 2 minutes of looking at those two separate charts. I don't want to sound condescending but if I could do that I'm pretty sure you could have done so too.

And if you don't want to use a Spiral blade but a Reverse Tooth blade instead, then I'll let you look yourself at the 2nd Pegas chart in that sticky which lists the blade numbers and TPIs in their Reverse Tooth blade ranges. 

If you don't know what Reverse Tooth is, it's a blade where the first few teeth (down at the bottom of the blade, just where it appears through the blade hole in the table) point UPWARDS instead of DOWNWARDS. This is to try and stop the splintering on the bottom of the wood where the cut first enters the job. Depending on the job I find that works quite well in reducing/eliminating splintering on the bottom of the job. 

Personally I like Pegas blades, but as also listed in that sticky, there are other manufacturers too. But if you want to try Pegas, Axminster Tools are their distributor in the UK.

Again I don't want to sound either rude or impatient with you, but there is nothing in the above that you couldn't have found out all by yourself, just as well and just as easily I have.

I also knew nothing when I started (and now I only "know" what suits me), but when I started, before I even know about this Forum, I found out the basics all by myself - and I'm NOT "clever", just a bit more than "vaguely interested". Those charts are not the only source for "converting" blade TPIs into blade numbers BTW - there are at least 2 US sites that have that info (though I forget which now). In my own searches I found those charts on line and put them in the sticky to help newcomers(?) like you.


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## Baldwyn (8 Aug 2021)

AES said:


> OK, I got the following info (I did NOT know it before!) from looking at 2 charts in the sticky mentioned.
> 
> The first chart was the "No Fail Blade Chart" and the second was the first of the two Pegas (manufacturer name) charts:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the effort you put into the post. It's a little unclear, condescending and have by your own admission no knowledge and that is how it reads. Like someone with no knowledge has picked up a few words here and there and is now an expert.

Like I said thanks for the effort you put into your post but it's not really what I'm looking for. No hard feelings and I hope we can enjoy the forum together


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## Baldwyn (8 Aug 2021)

I've bought them now anyway so I'll try them and report back


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## AES (8 Aug 2021)

Baldwyn said:


> Thanks for the effort you put into the post. It's a little unclear, condescending and have by your own admission no knowledge and that is how it reads. Like someone with no knowledge has picked up a few words here and there and is now an expert.
> 
> Like I said thanks for the effort you put into your post but it's not really what I'm looking for. No hard feelings and I hope we can enjoy the forum together




Well I can only say that to me it's far from unclear. And I really don't know how to make the info clearer for you.

But it MAY be condescending (though not actually intended to be). I just got/get frustrated when someone is apparently getting hung up about TPI (what difference will it make if you try 35 TPI but then find out later that actually 30 - or 40 - TPI would suit you personally better). Neither I nor the charts I pointed to suggest you should try, for e.g. 10 TPI!!

And as to getting hung up about QUOTE: someone with no knowledge who has picked up a few words here and there and is now an expert. UNQUOTE: I've said I'm NOT any sort of expert, but I HAVE achieved enough success to satisfy me in achieving (some) of what I want to achieve to a level that satisfies me. That does not make me an expert (nor a pretend expert either BTW) in my own eyes, but if you care to treat advice freely given in that light, then that is of course entirely up to you.

Personally I shall continue to enjoy my membership here, with or without your participation. What you do is of course entirely your own business.


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## loftyhermes (9 Aug 2021)

I don't know why you're so hooked on tpi, but If you want tpi then here's one.


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## Baldwyn (9 Aug 2021)

loftyhermes said:


> I don't know why you're so hooked on tpi, but If you want tpi then here's one.



I've seen that one, it was one of the first I looked at. I'll get in touch with a manufacturer and tell them my requirements, 

TuffSaws were great at responding when I need help with bandsaw blades. Short, clear and concise answers and in the context of the question. Thanks anyway and I've had some very good help on this thread. Good stuff


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## loftyhermes (9 Aug 2021)

For cutting hardwood 9 - 18mm thickness I would use a Niqua Speed No. 5 blade, 33tpi, or a Niqua Pebeco double tooth No.5 which are 17tpi. Had to look up tooth count just for you.


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## Baldwyn (9 Aug 2021)

loftyhermes said:


> For cutting hardwood 9 - 18mm thickness I would use a Niqua Speed No. 5 blade, 33tpi, or a Niqua Pebeco double tooth No.5 which are 17tpi. Had to look up tooth count just for you.




You're a star  big thanks to AES and the others that have provided very useful help and info


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