# Kitchen Fitter Required



## ByronBlack (4 Jun 2007)

I'm looking for a kitchen fitter, or someone who has worked at joining and fitting worktops to help me out with a very small job. I need to install a sink and make a single postform joint. I have the worktops already and can cut to size, I just need someone who can help with the single joint and fitting of the sink - all the plumbing is there, it's just a straight fit.

I'm happy to pay for this service, i'm not looking for a freebie or anything, but thought I'd put out the call here before contacting the local rip-off merchants/tradesman.

If anyone is interested and can do this job next weekend or during an evening in the week please get in touch. Cheers.

Also, i need someone who can do a bit of plastering (single wall) so please PM if you fancy that also.


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## tiler99 (4 Jun 2007)

As a tradesman i feel very offended by your choice of words. Not every one is a rip off merchant.


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## ByronBlack (4 Jun 2007)

well, I would say that 90% of all tradesman i've dealt with in my local area over the last few years are exactly as described. But like anything in the world, there are always exceptions and i'm sure you're an honest and hardworking chap - it's just almost everyone I have had the misfortune off dealing with are daylight robbers. 

Example given: I was quoted today £90+ VAT per every half-hour plus £40 rate for jets to clear a blocked toilet, other quotes come in over £75+ VAT - this is day rate btw. And evening rate starts at 4.00pm!! It's a total joke and a rip-off, and this is not an isolated case.

Another example: I was quoted £1200 to fit a simple shower - and this was with no decorating or finishing needed, just the fitting.

I could go on and on and on etc..

But there was no intention to offend any tradesman on here, hence my asking if there was anyone around who wanted a simple job.


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## Anonymous (4 Jun 2007)

I think a lot of people under estimate the average wage most trades men earn these days; as society has this urge to send every child to university, those few who become tradesmen will find their earning potential going up and up.
Our kitchen fitters earn more than Air Traffic Controllers :shock:


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## Gary M (4 Jun 2007)

tiler99":1heb3d38 said:


> As a tradesman i feel very offended by your choice of words. Not every one is a rip off merchant.


 =D> =D> =D> Here,Here Tiler99 !!!

Single postform joint (masons mitre) £125.00

fitting of sink worktop cut out £150.00

plastering of single wall (depending on size) £150.00


Byron i do not wish to offend but you seem to class all these jobs as *simple* or *very small*. if this is the case why do you not do them yourself?

go to your local hire shop and get a quote for everything you need for a worktop joint
jig up to £30.00 per day, router the same, clamps £5.00 , you cant hire a cutter so another £20.00 to buy one all plus vat :shock: 
total hire costs for a* very small job *£99.88 :shock: :shock: oh and of course the small matter of cutting and fitting the worktop !!

i would be taking the risk of cutting the hole for your sink :!: 
fitting your sink,
sealing the worktop edges,
sealing the sink to worktop,
fitting isolating valves (if not already there, normally not)
fitting electrical earth,
fitting waste (they dont always line up with the old :!: )
ect ect ect !!!

plastering the wall (depending on the size) could take up to a day depending on how bad it is 
may need bonded first or may just need skimmed.
ect ect ect !!!

as for the shower there is a mulititude of problems you can encounter, although £1200 sounds a bit much!!

drain/toilet jetting is a specialised job, and believe me if you ever seen the mess a blocked drain or toilet can make £90 +vat is well worth it !!

as i said i do not wish to offend, but the general public have no idea how much expenditure a tradesman has to outlay to have all the tools required to do these *simple jobs* never mind the time and effort put into learning their trade !!


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## mailee (4 Jun 2007)

Pity you aren't closer to me Byron I could have done the worktops for you. I do agree with some of the other comments on here though it is not a simple job, if it was everyone would be doing it. I started practicing on worktops many many moons ago now on scrap worktops to get the joints right, when I had enough confidence I then went on to doing them for customers. I never rush one usually taking around 45 mins to one hour for each but they normally turn out well. I have spent over £500 on kit to do it and a has been mentioned a new cutter for each job at a cost of around £20. I won't say what I charge as it is not a trade rate just needless to say I make my money back with a little extra. As for the plastering it is not my forte as mine always looks like the Himilayas. I hope you find a fitter that is kind to your poket mate, all the best. :wink:


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## wizer (4 Jun 2007)

Byron: I have a worktop jig you are welcome to borrow for gratis. You'll have to come pick it up and drop it back off again. Of course I can't tell you how to use it as I never have!


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## ByronBlack (4 Jun 2007)

Cheers for all the feedback. Wizer - cheers mate, that might well be an option, i'll get back to you on that one.

Mailee - you were one of the first persons I thought of, but remembered you were in the blackened depths of the north


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## ByronBlack (4 Jun 2007)

Update: I may have this sorted, so thanks for all the feedback, and again, don't be offended my views, their just based on tradesman that i've dealt with in the area, and i'm sure across the country you aint all bad.

I'll probably still need a plasterer though, it's mainly for reparing a wall - where i've scraped of the tile adhesive from the previous setup it's taken some chunks of plaster off. PM me if your interested, I can post some pics of the state of the wall if that helps with pricing the job.


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## devonwoody (5 Jun 2007)

Byron I can support some of your views, I have painted my outside walls a few times over the past 23 years, and each wall takes around 3 hours of painting.

I was quoted £200 last year to paint one wall (plus paint), so that was one rip off mechant that didn't get the job. Must get my ladders out and do that wall this summer though!

Anyone offers? :wink:


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## woodbloke (6 Jun 2007)

BB - you can use the white universal plaster to redo small areas (say where a couple of tiles have come off) but I wouldn't recommend doing a larger area. Once the plaster's set, sand it in..make sure you wear a mask tho' :wink: This is how I've done all my plastering, ain't perfect but has saved a whole pile of dosh :wink: - Rob


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## WellsWood (6 Jun 2007)

BB, sorry I've only just seen this thread. If you're sorted out for your worktop stuff then ignore this. If not let me know, I can come over at the weekend (9/10). I'll get you you pay for the router bit but other than that I'll do it for Karma.
PM me if I can help.

Mark


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## ByronBlack (6 Jun 2007)

HI Mark,

Cheers for the offer - very kind of you, I have a fellow forum member coming to help me out on sunday, but I appreciate your offer


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## WellsWood (6 Jun 2007)

No probs, best of luck with the refurb.

Mark


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## houtslager (6 Jun 2007)

Devonwoody wrote


> Byron I can support some of your views, I have painted my outside walls a few times over the past 23 years, and each wall takes around 3 hours of painting.
> 
> I was quoted £200 last year to paint one wall (plus paint), so that was one rip off mechant that didn't get the job. Must get my ladders out and do that wall this summer though!



Be warned with the new H & S law in action one can no longer use a laddwe above 1.5m for longer then 30 minutes at a time, so a pro painting firm has to scaffold up and then paint a house front.
Of course the really smart painter/s would have invested in a small trailer cherry picker and do these types of front walls in a day, but still it would cost £ 300 or more.
Just my euro cents worth :twisted:


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## ByronBlack (6 Jun 2007)

houtslager":3kzpxn98 said:


> Devonwoody wrote
> 
> 
> > Byron I can support some of your views, I have painted my outside walls a few times over the past 23 years, and each wall takes around 3 hours of painting.
> ...



H&S is just another form of increasing facism we have in this country/EU - I would say buy a ladder and do it how our fathers/grandfathers used to do it, aslong as you aren't stupid, you aren't going to suddenly stop being able to do things we've being do for years..

Eek, i'm getting a bit political here...


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## devonwoody (6 Jun 2007)

I wonder how long it will be before they ban the householder from going above 1.5m as well.

Better get the job done shortly, me thinks.


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## nickson71 (6 Jun 2007)

devonwoody":1ksrd8j8 said:


> I wonder how long it will be before they ban the householder from going above 1.5m as well.



If that happens they will have to fight me for my ladder ........ saying that if they won I'd make another out of timber


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## woodbloke (6 Jun 2007)

On the opposite tack, my daughter Megs is an archaeologist and isn't allowed to dig a hole deeper than about 1m (I think) - Rob


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## lurker (7 Jun 2007)

Sorry to spoil the show lads but this ain't true!

No height limit no time limit however you do need to do a risk assessment to show control of hazards. Ladders CAN be OK however its often safer, quicker, cheaper to look at other access methods. 

Like wise the hole & archeologist deeper than a metre (rule of the thumb by the way), where sides might cave in and smother you. Then a assessment & controls (shoring) needs to be considered. 

Most of the stories about H&S bans are figments of some journalists imagination.


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## Jake (7 Jun 2007)

I think fascists, historically, were more of the mindset that would have sent people up ladders and down holes not caring about health and safety, because they would just force some replacements to do the same if the first lot died.


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## devonwoody (7 Jun 2007)

lurker":19cfznhq said:


> Sorry to spoil the show lads but this ain't true!
> 
> No height limit no time limit however you do need to do a risk assessment to show control of hazards. Ladders CAN be OK however its often safer, quicker, cheaper to look at other access methods.
> 
> ...



The bloke that said can't use ladders ought to get a visit from rogue traders   

only joking


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## Scrit (19 Jun 2007)

ByronBlack":1tmd5org said:


> .........but thought I'd put out the call here before contacting the local rip-off merchants/tradesman.


A bit belatedly, but may I point out that there are a number of us "rip-off merchants/tradesmen" on this site who've given you excellent *free* advice in the past (and in one case even visited you to help you out). I'm much more of a "tradesman" these days and take great exception to this thoughless, throw-away white-collar insult to myself and my colleagues. Yes, there are rogues in the building trades, but from my experience they are no more common than incompetent muppets/leadswingers/bozos/Richard Cranium types are in so-called white collar jobs. 



ByronBlack":1tmd5org said:


> Well, I would say that 90% of all tradesman I've dealt with in my local area over the last few years are exactly as described. But like anything in the world, there are always exceptions and I'm sure you're an honest and hardworking chap - it's just almost everyone I have had the misfortune off dealing with are daylight robbers.


So having insulted almost every one of the full-time tradespersons on this site you go on to compound the error of your ways....... If you start with that attitude, Byron, it's no wonder tradesmen quote you ridiculously high rates. In this part of the world this is a sign that they don't want the work - or that they don't want to work for you. Oh, and last time you used a solicitor, architect or dentist what were their charge rates like?



ByronBlack":1tmd5org said:


> Example given: I was quoted today £90+ VAT per every half-hour plus £40 rate for jets to clear a blocked toilet, other quotes come in over £75+ VAT - this is day rate btw. And evening rate starts at 4.00pm!! It's a total joke and a rip-off, and this is not an isolated case.


But that price includes travel time to and from a job, insurance rates, equipment, insurances, etc. And just what would _you_ want to be paid to clear away someone else's sh*te? Certainly not a job I'd relish doing.



ByronBlack":1tmd5org said:


> But there was no intention to offend any tradesman on here, hence my asking if there was anyone around who wanted a simple job.


Really? Then maybe you'll engage brain next time before starting to type (or opening gob)? After all I (and others) don't insult your trade of spectacle mechanic, do we? :lol: 

I've recently had the experience of working on a job where we had a 2+1 plastering team. The quality of their work and the speed at which they worked were astounding, but even up here in the frozen and impoverished north these guys weren't cheap. It made me realise that whilst I can plaster, I'm simply not in the same league as the pros - but then they can't do joinery work, can they? At least like most tradesmen, they realised their limitations. :wink: 

The Tradesman Formerly Known as Scrit


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## devonwoody (19 Jun 2007)

The above thread now brings to my mind the story of Moyshe Dayan speaking about the 7 day war in Israel.

He was telling a British reporter that the front line was made up of architects, accountants, dentists, doctors.
And the reporter replied, "Can they charge" 
Oh yes said Moyshe, "they can charge"
:lol: :lol: 

I'm sure Byron was not wanting to offend, but like me speaks quickly.


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## Gary M (24 Jun 2007)

Scrit":2ted6s4i said:


> So having insulted almost every one of the full-time tradespersons on this site you go on to compound the error of your ways....... If you start with that attitude, Byron, it's no wonder tradesmen quote you ridiculously high rates. In this part of the world this is a sign that they don't want the work - or that they don't want to work for you. Oh, and last time you used a solicitor, architect or dentist what were their charge rates like?
> 
> 
> The Tradesman Formerly Known as Scrit


 =D> =D> nail on the head Scrit !! good to see you back !!

im not sorry to bring this post back up again, 
point being as Scrit has mentioned,

Byron you have done all the *easy, simple jobs * yourself ie. fitting all the cabinets ect.
you have left out the hardest parts because you know how easy it would be to make a b***s of them and then expect someone to do them for you :roll: 
hence the reason for the prices quoted!!!

what you want is mates rates, which is fair enough, but surely you dont expect a tradesman you dont know, to do all the awkward bits for you for mates rates ??
looking at your kitchen post, to fit all the units, worktops and sink, in and out in a day £400.
how long did it take you ??
thats what you are paying for :wink:


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## Scrit (24 Jun 2007)

Gary M":2dtoh0b8 said:


> What you want is mates rates, which is fair enough, but surely you dont expect a tradesman you don't know, to do all the awkward bits for you for mates rates ??


Lord save me from "mates rates" :roll: There's no such thing, really. If you're doing a job for a mate at a reduced rate then you're not doing a job for a paying customer - in other words your mate is taking the bread off your table, it's that simple. On the other hand I'm happy to do "favours" in return for "services" - I've recently made some MDF wall units for a guy who's a plasterer but is "wood challenged". In return he's going to be replastering my alcoves, bathroom and landing. The two jobs even each other out, so we're both happy.

As to worktops, my tarriff is £45 a joint, £25 per straight end or cut-out whilst sink plumbing I charge between £45 and £95 for depending on the complexity, materials required, etc. (Fairly typical prices round here, and why is it that I've yet to fit a sink where there are isolators already installed?) There's rarely such a thing as just doing the joints, though, as I often have to re-level, realign and properly anchor the base cabinets so expertly installed by the householder before I can get the worktops in, the walls are invariably not straight either and can require a bit of hacking of masonry and I absolutely hate installing worktops after the upper cabs have gone in as they can turn an awkward job in a small kitchen into the nasty "quart in a pint pot" scenario :twisted: Similarly I don't like other people sizing the worktops I'm installing because if one corner turns out to be an 86 degree angle all that careful cutting to length just means another trip to B&Q for another piece of worktop :roll: One thing about my prices - I'm not going to do a 25 mile round trip for one joint. My own preference is not to take a job on a "tarriff" rate unless there's a half or full days' work in it because it is difficult to make a living that way many other tradesmen seem to share this opinion. Perhaps, Byron, that explains some of the prices you've been quoted 

Scrit


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## Dave S (24 Jun 2007)

Scrit":28e4e8ql said:


> One thing about my prices - I'm not going to do a 25 mile round trip for one joint. My own preference is not to take a job on a "tarriff" rate unless there's a half or full days' work in it because it is difficult to make a living that way many other tradesmen seem to share this opinion.
> Scrit


Over the years I've seen several competent DIYers who have decided to give it a go as a living, doing all the small odd jobs that the established traders aren't interested in. They all have found they can't make it pay - just too much dead time measuring up, quoting, buying materials, travelling between jobs, yet the customers only want to pay for the time they are onsite. They can't make it pay.

As an aside, I do feel uncomfortable with the term 'rip-off' being bandied about so much these days. To me, 'rip-off' implies some kind of dishonesty. A quote for a job may be expensive, but you either accept the quote or go elsewhere. If you accept the quote and the job is done properly, you still haven't been ripped off. _If_ on the other hand they charged you for something they didn't provide, then _that_ would be a rip-off in my book.

Dave


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## devonwoody (24 Jun 2007)

devonwoody":1pyxqgri said:


> Byron I can support some of your views, I have painted my outside walls a few times over the past 23 years, and each wall takes around 3 hours of painting.
> 
> I was quoted £200 last year to paint one wall (plus paint), so that was one rip off mechant that didn't get the job. Must get my ladders out and do that wall this summer though!
> 
> Anyone offers? :wink:



The gentleman who quoted above used to have two or three regular customers in our road (odd jobs) but I note that he is not in attendance on Wednesday or Thursday any more.
After all £200 for half a day equals £400 per day,£2000 per week or over £100,000 per annum. Not bad for an odd jobber or ROM. An oddjobber can always find work on a wet day doing indoor jobs as well.


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## ByronBlack (24 Jun 2007)

Scrit - don't be having a go at me and trying to justify youself, there is no need. I have my opinion of hte tradesman that I have met and dealt with and have based my opinion on them solely - at no stage have I directly inferred or insulted a member of this forum, so please get of your high horse.

And secondly, all the FREE advice that i've received on this forum has always been gratefully received - please go back and read all the posts where i always thank the person for their advice and show my gratitude - including yourself! So don't try and use that for an argument because it simply doesn't wash.

And for what it's worth, when I was freelance I charged just £35 per hour for all my services no matter what I thought of the client or the complexity of the job or the time I worked at. If you and other tradesman think it's fair to willingly charge people very high prices because of those factors, then i'm sorry, but that is a loss of integrity and is what gives some tradesman a bad name.

Anyway, no doubt you'll post a long and line-by line disection of my argument forcing your will upon this subject and generally dragging it away from topic - well feel free. I'm too bored with this to reply any longer, you've clearly taking my points out of topic and projected your own opinions upon it.. we'll knock yourself out, it's all yours!


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## Gary M (25 Jun 2007)

ByronBlack":2bzivnbx said:


> And for what it's worth, when I was freelance I charged just £35 per hour for all my services no matter what I thought of the client or the complexity of the job or the time I worked at.



Byron, i wish i could charge* just* £35 per hour, as i would probably be retired by now !!

your kitchen would have been two men 8am-6pm (10 hours each) maybe less !!* just *£20 per hour each, so thats £15 per hour less than you charge, *justify that if you will!!
*


Jake":2bzivnbx said:


> I think fascists, historically, were more of the mindset that would have sent people up ladders and down holes not caring about health and safety, because they would just force some replacements to do the same if the first lot died.


Exactly right, health and safety laws have been introduced to protect employees from fascist employers who dont care about their employees safety and welfare. they now legally have a duty of care enforced on them and can be prosecuted for not forfilling this duty of care, up to the point that there can be a very strong case for corporate manslaughter !!



ByronBlack":2bzivnbx said:


> If you and other tradesman think it's fair to willingly charge people very high prices because of those factors, then i'm sorry, but that is a loss of integrity and is what gives some tradesman a bad name.


*
where on earth did you get that statement from ??*
your missing the point Byron,
you must have a very big chip on your shoulder if your assuming prices are inflated if you live in a big house :roll: :roll:
it is a waste of a day doing one worktop joint for anyone especially since you think you are being cute doing the easy stuff yourself !! 

*good work aint cheap, cheap work aint good !!*



ByronBlack":2bzivnbx said:


> I'm too bored with this to reply any longer,



*says it all mate !!* if you cant stand the heat and all that !!



Scrit":2bzivnbx said:


> If you start with that attitude, Byron, it's no wonder tradesmen quote you ridiculously high rates. In this part of the world this is a sign that they don't want the work


*sound advise !!*


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## Anonymous (25 Jun 2007)

I think your all being a bit hard on him now.


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## Scrit (25 Jun 2007)

ByronBlack":2482402r said:


> ....don't be having a go at me and trying to justify youself, there is no need.


I don't think I need to justify myself or what I charge, but you obviously do.

Gary M makes several points quite succinctly. There appears to be an oft repeated mantra in the media that tradesman = con-man which you seem to have taken to heart. 

I somehow doubt if you would be happy if someone were to post a defamatory post about your trade, so you should not have been surprised that someone objected to your post. 

You imply that the thrust of your post was not aimed at anyone on the forum, then you continue by saying, _"If you and other tradesman think it's fair to willingly charge people very high prices......"_ which is really a bit of a personal attack. I actually quoted you what I charge on some jobs, are you saying my prices are high? For example the £45 for a worktop joint includes the cost of the cutter (£5), the cost of the joiners (£2.50) and the sealant (£5) and time to check (and frequently correct) for "un-level" units together with all my overheads, investment in equipment, travel time and the risk factor that if I make a mistake it will cost me £60 to £120 for a replacement worktop. A risk you were unwilling to take. If I were on site for a half day or a full-day, however, I'd apply my day rates which are considerably less.

If you are too bored to reply maybe you'd consider what you write before posting such an inflamatory and derogatory post in the future.

Scrit


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## tiler99 (25 Jun 2007)

What Scrit said.


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## A_n_g_e_l_a (25 Jun 2007)

My life experience biases me towards Byron's viewpoint although I have sympathy for those legal, decent and honest trades-people that write within this forum.

I think the term 'rip-off' is just a colloquial expression, perhaps used unfortunately in this thread as it appears to mean different things to different people. To me it means deviously greedy.

Towards the end of my working life I found myself at a loose-end answering an advert that asked ‘Do you want to be at the front?'. After a lifetime as a 'professional' I trained and eventually drove a bus for a living. Doing so I had many hours to think on the notion of wages and how we value people in our society. 

Two years ago my bus driver wage reached the dizzy height of £8.44 an hour. For that I was responsible for the lives of up to 73 passengers and the care of a 40-foot double-decked omnibus worth over a £100K. A single mistake, causing an accident, could have seen me arrested and imprisoned. On night shifts, I was in danger of being mugged and stabbed. And one less than friendly toe-rag did offer to kill me one evening. For this I was rewarded with, let me stress, £8.44 an hour. 

Now I understand that bus drivers are classed as semi-skilled. Our society seems to think they, in no sense compare to, or deserve the wage levels of skilled workers. But by how much should learning a skill be rewarded? Should it be two, three or five, times the bus driver's wage, or more? By how much should learning a skill and having to bear a liability of care be rewarded? By how much should learning a skill, having to bear a liability of care and taking the risk of being self-employed be rewarded? I could extend this line of argument to graduates working as professionals such as solicitors, accountants or doctors, but you probably get the point. Should there be a limit to what a person can earn?

We all carry our own notion of what we are worth vis-à-vis others. I think we become affronted when someone asks a fee for a job that challenges our own sense of worth and place in the jobs hierarchy . Hence Byron’s reported £35/hr pay rate is probably sub-consciously calculated in his head and compared against job estimates from trades people to give him a notion of good or bad value. 

My own sense of worth made me question the 'value' of several quotes, for example, tidying up a garden - two days work £300/day over three years ago. That is, roughly, 5 times more than a bus driver's daily rate. An aerial fitter recently wanted £150 to supply and fit a replacement Sky dish; roughly three times my daily rate for less than an hour on-site. (Wholesale Sky dishes are less than £10 each). A built-up felt roofer wanted £1700 to re-felt a flat roofed garage of 23 square metres. When later challenged he said 'Oh yer .... I made a mistake in the calculation'. Well, perhaps he did, but perhaps he was just trying it on. The lowest quote I could get was £900; two blokes and boy in and out in less than a day. I asked one of them about the weather stopping his work - he told me he surprisingly had little down time in the last year. A solicitor with posted rates of £65/hour charged £100 + VAT to draw up a change of name deed. These things are standard Law Society stuff for which templates exist – so over an hour and a half for the job? I don’t think so. 

So can these examples be regarded as greedy? Compared to my sense of self of worth I have to answer in the affirmative.

My general feeling is I get better value from the older generation of trades-people than I do the young. I may be prejudiced but many years ago I met a builder who was probably in his late fifties – at the time this would have been around 1971. I considered him to be very bright and wondered why he had remained working as a builder after leaving school at 14. It was most likely all about expectations. His family simply did not expect to have a bright prodigy going off to university – nor I suppose, could they afford to do without his wage coming in. His case must have been typical of thousands of bright boys, (no girls then of course), ending up in the trades. (I suspect Scrit, judging by his postings, might be one of them – but I would not want to embarrass him by having the temerity to suggest that here  ) That process of apparent under-achievement left our post-war trades peppered with a high amount of intellect. For example Cedric Brown, once a gas fitter, became Chairman of British Gas before privatization. That process of from bottom to top probably couldn't happen today.

Today there is much more ‘ability layering’. Kids are tested at every turn; their life expectations are raised everywhere by rampant consumerism. Children, we hear, just want to be ‘famous’ without the graft. Dads have told me of their children setting up a business whom seem to think a flash van is important. A new van on credit before a business generates income is a big outlay that has to be reclaimed from somewhere. Then, of course they need all the toys. But someone has to ultimately pay for all those Festools; is it any wonder that job prices creep ever upwards?

Is it likely that _some_ trades people, with less integrity than this forum’s readers of course, attempt to charge too much? On balance, I think it is.


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## Slim (25 Jun 2007)

I have sat back from this topic trying to resist posting. But I can no longer.

Byron, I understand that you had no intentions of personally insulting anyone on this forum. However, the statements such as "90% of tradesmen are con-men" could have no other outcome than to p-off most of the tradesmen on this site.

Angela, I would like to cross examine one of the examples you gave. "tidying up a garden - two days work £300/day". Now I am a self-employed landscape gardener. I would personally say that £300/day is a fair price. I spent 3 years studying horticulture, full time, and yet it appears that people have the mindset that gardening is not a skilled job. I can tell you, that there is a hell of a lot more knowledge required to be a successful gardener than probably any other trade.

As for you're quote: How many people was that for? The quote will have included removal and disposal of waste, which can be very expensive. For an average garden 'tidy-up' (Which usually means its a jungle) I could be £75-£150 to dispose of the waste.

Also included in the quote would be: Cost of machinery, cost of vehicle, travelling expenses, liability insurance, employee costs, cost of premises etc.. you get the picture. Say that the quote was for two people. It probably works out at £200 per person, £100 per day, £12.50 per hour.

Even if it was just one person £25.00 p/h is a perfectly fair wage for a skilled tradesman/woman.


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## A_n_g_e_l_a (25 Jun 2007)

Slimjim81":7h3habk3 said:


> Even if it was just one person £25.00 p/h is a perfectly fair wage for a skilled tradesman/woman.



Slimjim81, but that's the whole thrust of my post ... is a man who tells me he is a gardener worth three times a bus driver? And please remember this was three years ago. The fact that he offered no written contract nor even a written quote probably meant he was a self-styled gardener. If I had thought about it I could have offered a bus-driving colleague double his normal rate to do my garden and still be ahead of the game.

Your life experience clearly makes your sense of self worth higher. But are you sure you are comparing like with like? If you are a landscaper with something better than an NVQ level 3 I wouldn't, myself, compare you with a gardener come odd job man.

I think Byron and I have a problem with greedy semi-literates - by definition not those who read this forum - trying to put one over now and again.

If all trades people were legal, decent and honest there wouldn't be a need for trade organizations - nor schemes like Check-a-Trade. Unfortunately, when tarring someone with a brush, splashes do tend to get everywhere. So it may be worth recognizing this and getting a thicker coat.


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## tim (25 Jun 2007)

There's one word that is glaring in its omission throughout the whole of this thread: *PROFIT*.

I run my business to make profit and according to (for example) Wikipedia thats a pretty normal thing to do: _"In economics, business is the social science of managing people to organize and maintain collective productivity toward accomplishing particular creative and productive goals, usually to generate profit."_

I make that profit by determining a fine balance between charging too much (and pricing myself out of the market) or charging too little and not making any profit. My objective is not to make my customers money or add value to their houses or make their lives easier. These may well be by products of my relationship with them but they are not my objectives. 

I charge as much as I know the market can bear, any less and I am not maximising my profit. Is that ripping people off? No one has ever been forced to engage my services. They are aware of the price before the work begins and if they are not satisfied that the work is of the agreed standard then there are the usual avenues available for redress. Ultimately, potential customers must decide whether they are getting value for their money. If they aren't, then I don't get the work. 

Too many people make the incorrect conclusion that the cost of a service = profit and in the case of sole workers, wage of service provider.

Cheers

Tim


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## ike (25 Jun 2007)

Well put Tim.

The best tradespeople are more likely to be the ones advertising rarely if at all - word of mouth recommendations keep them busy, and who more often than not have a waiting list. I don't think affilliation to trade organizations is a particularly reliable indicator of honesty, integrity or workmanship - membership of many of these schemes is so easy to come by and so common as to be pretty meaningless. Personal recommendation however, has to be earned the old fashioned way.

Ike


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## Gary M (25 Jun 2007)

Slimjim81":o2dfscr6 said:


> As for you're quote: How many people was that for? The quote will have included removal and disposal of waste, which can be very expensive. For an average garden 'tidy-up' (Which usually means its a jungle) I could be £75-£150 to dispose of the waste.
> 
> Also included in the quote would be: Cost of machinery, cost of vehicle, travelling expenses, liability insurance, employee costs, cost of premises etc.. you get the picture.



*very obviously not !!*

" _£300/ per day let me see thats nearly 5 times what i get paid by my employer ----- i dont think so !!_ "

angela, you get £8.44 per hour, but have no expenses/ overheads to pay out of that, your employer pays all those. 
i wonder how much it would cost me to hire your bus and driver for an hour ?? are you getting the picture yet ??probably more than 5 times your hourly rate.

i wonder who services your car, do you take it to the dealer and pay the rates without quibble ??
or do you take it to "jimmy" round the corner who _*says *_he is a mechanic, because he is cheaper ??

what happens when "jimmy" cant fix it because it needs specialist equipment ?? sorry i forgot about your bus driver collegue who will do it for twice his hourly rate :roll:

specialist equipment boils down to large overheads/expenditure
not forgetting rent /insurance/tax ect ect but you obviously dont take that into consideration

by the way there are alot more trade associations/ ombudsman bodies set up for the white collar sectors !!


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## Keith Smith (25 Jun 2007)

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding between those that are employed and those that are self employed. There is quite a soft cushion to being employed, paid leave, sick pay and company pension are all part of the bargain but not so for the self employed. Also Government benefits are largely excluded from the self employed even though we pay National Insurance. All this is worth a lot of money, £8.44 per hour probably equates to more like £15 per hour with all the benefits taken into account.

Plus some trades have high overheads, my last years accounts show that I had £9865 worth of expenses, which works out to nearly £200 per week and that is without any charges for the workshop!! Furthermore I probably work more than 60 hours a week but I'm lucky if I actually can charge for any more than half of that.

I accept there are some rip off tradesmen about, although in my experience you are just as, or perhaps more, likely to be ripped off by a so called "professional".


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## orangetlh (25 Jun 2007)

There is also a link between skills and how much demand there is for each particular one. . Plumbers and electricians recently are a pretty good example. At one stage there just wasnt enough of them to go around so the prices went sky high. Then when people started seeing pound signs and taking the trade up it was flooded wiith people and the prices have dropped. Well around our area anyway. Im sure if i told you our hourly rate for cabinet making and fitting you would assume that our company is ripping people off, when in fact as its been stated before, by the time you take the cost of running the business into account, that sum becomes quite low. 
At the end of the day there is a market value for anything, goods, services, the lot. If you want to buy a can of beans for 8p then fine, but you know they arnt going to be as good as the 50p can. thats a consumer choice and its the same with anything that you pay for. it doesnt mean that the people making the more expensive ones are ripping you off, it means they have a better product and they can charge that because people wil pay it.


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## DomValente (25 Jun 2007)

Agree totally with Keith there are good and bad tradesmen and good and bad workers in every walk of life.
From an employer/tradesmans point of view I know that when I put the key in the lock of my workshop every morning, assuming I work a 5 day week( I wish)it costs me about £125.00 and that's before I've even got inside.
You do the Math.
I don't think any less of Byron though, he was venting his spleen on a risky subject, for this forum anyway.

Dom


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## A_n_g_e_l_a (25 Jun 2007)

Gary, 



A_n_g_e_l_a":1nbmh5pq said:


> Unfortunately, when tarring someone with a brush, splashes do tend to get everywhere. So it may be worth recognizing this and getting a thicker coat.



:wink: 

I think you miss my point entirely. The daily rate I used to get, (I'm now retired) gave me a yardstick, a sense of value that I use in assessing the worth of a quote. Because we all have our own sense of worth, unique to each of us, it means we all will react differently. 

Reacting differently is what is happening here - your high sense of your own worth is causing you to bridle against a broad brush accusation of some trades people charging too much. It doesn't make Byron or me wrong or you right. We each have our own _weltanshung_.

Of course I'll take into account the complexity of the tools etc needed to do the job. Let us take my satellite dish replacement as an example- in the end I bought a satellite signal finder and a dish off eBay and did the job for less than £20. OK, I already had a ladder, a drill and screwdriver and didn't need to travel to the job nor employ a 'wife' to do the books. But is anyone going to argue that £150 was a 'fair' quote for the work? It certainly was the 'going' rate. But since, in the end, I did the work myself, no-one got the job. Perhaps that might go some way to explain why, when I had previously called in at an aerial wholesaler to try to buy a dish, (they refused to sell me one by the way), there were four self-employed installers standing around with nothing to do.

Are all of you that have been upset by Byron's post in agreement that all trades people, bar none, charge fair rates and do a decent job for the money they get?

Tim, as for profit, at what point does the amount become obscene? Is Bill Gates too rich as a result of Microsoft's profits? 

Whatever happened to the notion of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay that used to be prevalent in this country? To my mind it is such a pity Thatcher's children appear never to have heard of that. 

I think we have become a greedy society epitomised by Harry Enfield's 90's character 'loadsa money' and I, for one, don't like it.


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## Shultzy (25 Jun 2007)

Just to put my tuppence worth in - I think it costs an employer three times an employees salary when taking into account all the overheads, heating, lighting, accommodation costs etc. And I think most tradesmen/women charge what they can get away with, which may or may not be a "rip-off"


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## Paul Chapman (25 Jun 2007)

Shultzy":2oha2k0g said:


> I think it costs an employer three times an employees salary when taking into account all the overheads, heating, lighting, accommodation costs etc.



I would agree, that's a pretty accurate ball-park figure, Shultzy. In one job I had during my working life, we used to use a ready reckoner that was specifically drawn up to calculate staff costs. When you factor in all the costs, the figures are quite frightening. Probably explains why so many small businesses go bust - they seldom factor in the true costs  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Gary M (25 Jun 2007)

A-n-g-e-l-a":3lfegduk said:


> Are all of you that have been upset by Byron's post in agreement that all trades people, bar none, charge fair rates and do a decent job for the money they get?


*not at all* 
*but i do !!* :wink:


A-n-g-e-l-a":3lfegduk said:


> Whatever happened to the notion of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay that used to be prevalent in this country? To my mind it is such a pity Thatcher's children appear never to have heard of that.
> 
> I think we have become a greedy society epitomised by Harry Enfield's 90's character 'loadsa money'



perhaps thats why your employer only pays you £8.44 per hour, ever thought of that ??


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## Gary M (25 Jun 2007)

Paul Chapman":3n93infl said:


> When you factor in all the costs, the figures are quite frightening. Probably explains why so many small businesses go bust - they seldom factor in the true costs
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



but yet when certain people whinge about the cost of a job that they cant do themselves,
they label the struggling small business owner as being a rip off merchant!!
:roll: :roll:


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## DomValente (25 Jun 2007)

"A fair day's wages for a fair day's work?
But what is a fair day's wages, and what is a fair day's work? How are they determined by the laws under which modern society exists and develops itself?
For an answer to this we must not apply to the science of morals or of law and equity, nor to any sentimental feeling of humanity, justice, or even charity. What is morally fair, what is even fair in law, may be far from being socially fair. Social fairness or unfairness is decided by one science alone — the science which deals with the material facts of production and exchange, the science of political economy."

I didn't really want to join this discussion, because I was an 80s capitalist,
I didn't need all that money, yes Angela it probably was Greed, money begets money, but I worked an average of 100 hour weeks for 20 years , I didn't cheat anybody and now that I have had a change of life style I'm happier and can see that greed is not a pretty sight, but then again it is nice to have pretty things to make life seem better.
Oh, by the way that first paragraph is not mine it belongs to Joseph Engels.

Dom


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## mailee (25 Jun 2007)

Wow this is a hot subject isn't it? Now for my little contribution. OK so there will be so called tradesmen that will charge the earth for jobs but by and large most of them are just charging to make sure they cover their costs and make some profit. (After all that is why they are in business to make a profit) as has been mentioned. With the rising cost of everything nowadays it is hardly surprising that they charge more! Take for an example road tax and fuel costs that has risen so much over the last few years, this has an effect on the timber you buy the tools you use in fact any of the materials that are transported by road, rail or air. Not only that but the 'Tradesman' is also a normal person who is probably a home owner, breadwinner, working man who also has bills to pay and maybe even wages to pay too. At the end of the day it is all relevant to the situation. Oh and by the way I only earn £7.60 per hour in my employment so am not overpaid or indeed underpaid for my job. :wink:


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## tim (25 Jun 2007)

A-n-g-e-l-a":b5fkqv8y said:


> Tim, as for profit, at what point does the amount become obscene? Is Bill Gates too rich as a result of Microsoft's profits?
> 
> Whatever happened to the notion of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay that used to be prevalent in this country? To my mind it is such a pity Thatcher's children appear never to have heard of that.



I don't think that there is any danger that the profit I make will ever become obscene. To be fair, we aren't talking about Bill Gates or any of the few super wealthy businessmen and its a pointless red herring in this debate. 

What we are talking about is in fact a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. However and this is the point that keeps being (wilfully?) misunderstood, I am talking about a fair day's pay for the business out of which I take after expenses a pretty ordinary wage and set the remainder aside. That remainder is the profit. Its there to provide a safety net, allow for expansion and frankly make it worthwhile being in business. 

Using your hourly bus driver's wage as a yardstick is not a meaningful or comparable measure of worth. Your £8.44 is not the hourly cost of keeping that bus driving around doing its job ](*,)

What might make more your point more valid is to add on to that figure an hourly breakdown of the fuel costs, insurance, purchase of the bus, repair and maintenance costs, garaging, road tax, advertising etc etc. Now compare that to the average bus ticket price ( quick google shows European averages at £1.37 per journey). Assuming 50% occupancy of 36 people and assuming a churn of three loads an hour and your revenue is £147.96 per hour - out of which you are being paid £8.44. 

All of those costs have to be forecast by the business - get them wrong and you go bust unless you've kept a bit of profit back......

Cheers

Tim


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## dennyk (26 Jun 2007)

*just my 2 pennorth*

In the years 1954 & 1955 I worked for a firm , who let you work as long as you liked, providing of course you worked a minimum of 48 hours a week, over one period of 2 weeks I worked 270 hours, I was paid after tax and national Ins, £66.00, I thought I was a very rich young man, over that 2 year period, I made enough money to pay for my wedding, the honeymoon abroad, and bought enough furniture to furnish the 2 rooms we lived in , The rent by the way was 30 shillings per week.

*BTW during the period 1954 & 1955 my basic pay was 7 Pounds 15 shillings per week. *

In January 1960 we bought our first house on a mortgage , the house was an 8 roomed terraced house , the price of the house was £550.00 ( approx a years basic pay before tax & national ins) and the mortgage cost worked out at six pounds ten shillings per month.

The house was a bit of a wreck and I spent the next 10 years completely refurbishing it as and the money became available, also we had 3 children in that period,

Throughout my working life I never worked less than 60 hours per week.

*IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY THE TRADESMAN WHAT HE IS WORTH or DO NOT WANT TOO, learn to do the jobs yourself*

_That is what I did, I learned to do plumbing , plastering bricklaying, mixing and laying concrete, also helped an electrician to do the re-wiring, and learned at the same time, my main job was a joiner_


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## Anonymous (26 Jun 2007)

dennyk":9y6rjpue said:


> Throughout my working life I never worked less than 60 hours per week.



Errm, is this a good or a bad thing? I work hard now so I won't have to do any hours after 55, hopefully.


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## Good Surname or what ? (26 Jun 2007)

I've resisted posting here because I'm not a tradesman but I for one do NOT resent paying tradesmen to do work for me.

I'd love to build the cabinetry for the wallbed we'll have installed next month - apart from the fact that SWMBO wouldn't put up with my slow work rate. :lol: I recognise the value of the service and will pay accordingly.

The problem with the DIY (or DIM do-it-myself as I call it) boom is simple. If everyone does their own painting and decorating the painter has no money to pay a plumber and the plumber has no money to pay a car mechanic. The simple fact is we need to pay others to do specialist work for us in order for the economy to work. Furthermore we mustn't fall into the trap of simply using the value of our own time to determine price/value of the service we are buying.

To go back to the original point. Byron has tried to save money by doing a job himself. Thereby depriving a professional kitchen fitter of an income. He then wonders why a professional doesn't want the part job or charges him a high rate for the difficult part of the job. He's lucky we can't make our own spectacles (with apologies to Byron I mistakenly said contact lenses)


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## tim (26 Jun 2007)

I was discussing this thread with a friend of mine last night who runs an IT business. We reached the conclusion that in terms of 'rip off' there were two scenarios where this phrase gets used. 

1. The generally rare but real 'rip off' scenarios where someone contracted to do work doesn't do it to the right standard having been paid

2. The more common context where people aren't actually ripped off (ie money hasn't changed hands and work hasn't been carried out) but are in fact trying to do something (that they actually can't do themselves) on the cheap. Then when faced with the real costs decide that its way above what they are prepared to pay and therefore they must be being 'ripped off'. Some people are more honest with themselves and would say its actually a fair price but more than they can/ are prepared to pay.

In this instance ie the project which started the debate, we are talking about someone wanting to replace their kitchen on a budget. The inference is that costs should be kept to a minimum and this can certainly be done by doing a lot of the work yourself. Fair enough! However, what seems all too common now is that customers expect tradesmen to fit into their cost cutting plan and lower their prices accordingly to fit in with an unrealistic budget. 

One other thing:



A-n-g-e-l-a":tbpbgtpc said:


> My general feeling is I get better value from the older generation of trades-people than I do the young. I may be prejudiced but many years ago I met a builder who was probably in his late fifties – at the time this would have been around 1971. I considered him to be very bright and wondered why he had remained working as a builder after leaving school at 14. It was most likely all about expectations. His family simply did not expect to have a bright prodigy going off to university – nor I suppose, could they afford to do without his wage coming in. His case must have been typical of thousands of bright boys, (no girls then of course), ending up in the trades. (I suspect Scrit, judging by his postings, might be one of them – but I would not want to embarrass him by having the temerity to suggest that here Wink ) That process of apparent under-achievement left our post-war trades peppered with a high amount of intellect.* For example Cedric Brown, once a gas fitter, became Chairman of British Gas before privatization. That process of from bottom to top probably couldn't happen today. *



Would that be the same Cedric Brown who had to resign after awarding himself a 75% pay rise just after announcing redundancies and pay cuts?  

Cheers

Tim


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## Scrit (26 Jun 2007)

A_n_g_e_l_a":3023nxf5 said:


> Because we all have our own sense of worth, unique to each of us, it means we all will react differently.
> 
> Reacting differently is what is happening here - your high sense of your own worth is causing you to bridle against a broad brush accusation of some trades people charging too much. It doesn't make Byron or me wrong or you right. We each have our own _weltanshung_.





A_n_g_e_l_a":3023nxf5 said:


> Are all of you that have been upset by Byron's post in agreement that all trades people, bar none, charge fair rates and do a decent job for the money they get?


There are tradespersons who can and do charge unjustifiably high rates for their services, just as there are professionals who do so (can anyone recall the rates software houses were charging in the late 1990s?), but I've never heard any sweeping condemnations in the media of "rip-off white collar workers". Possibly tradespersons are seen as a soft target by the media, but the effect of this continual negative portrayal is to encourage throw-away insults such as that from the OP. But tell me, when was the last time you saw a _long-running_ series on "customers from hell", for example? I will state that the vast majority of trades people I know charge rates based on what is regarded by them and their peers as the "going rate", if only because most customers I come across are "savvy" to the rate for the job. Were I a joiner or kitchen fitter in the Home Counties with property prices and overheads so high I have no doubt that my charge rates would probably be 2 to 3 times what they are up here in the Pennines.

Your assertion that we have become a greedy society, as epitomised by Enfield's 'Loadsa Money', is so very true, but isn't it interesting that Enfield, with his middle class upbringing, chose to portray a plasterer rather than the even bigger rip-off merchants of the early 1990s, the city traders? That is quite telling about the values within our society, is it not? 

Scrit


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## Jake (26 Jun 2007)

Scrit":2z805psx said:


> There are tradespersons who can and do charge unjustifiably high rates for their services, just as there are professionals who do so (can anyone recall the rates software houses were charging in the late 1990s?), but I've never heard any sweeping condemnations in the media of "rip-off white collar workers".



As a lawyer, that assertion made me laugh.


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## ByronBlack (26 Jun 2007)

Gary, you seem to have a real chip on your shoulder, so i'll retort - against my better judgement (shouldn't wrestle with chimney sweeps and all that).

First of all you said:

" they label the struggling small business owner as being a rip off merchant!! "

Where have I ever said that? I said I've based my view only on the tradesman that i've dealt with in my local area - no where at any point have I ever said this is a general concencus across the country or this forum.

Also, someone said that I said "90% of all tradesman are con-men" or something to that effect. Well, again, this is not at all what I said - go back and read my first initial posts and you'll see that I said and I paraphrase: "90% of tradesman that I have dealth with in my local area" - so again, as I keep repeating but a lot of you can't seem to understand, is based on my personal experiences!!

Also, Gary & Scrit - the reason why I said I was ducking out of this was because in these arguments where everyone is busy justifying themselves and getttin their point across the original point gets taken out of subject, and people i.e. me get misquoted.

At the end of the day I have a great respect for all tradesman - most of my family are tradespeople and I was days away from training as a plumber (which is still a reality) but at the end of the day, the prices/work I have had to deal with over the years has been high and not to a good standard, and I and my family have been proper ripped off a number of times - I can give exact details if anyone is interested, i'm not basing my opinion on media stereotypes here nor have I said at any stage that all tradesman are con men.

My original motivation for this post was to put some work someones way on the forum - at no point did I ask for it done be done on the cheap, or at mates rates or anything else - again, go look back and you'll see that and i'm really sick of the assumptions by a number of your on this thread that I've tried to get someone on the cheap - that is simply not true!

Good surname or what? You said: "
*To go back to the original point. Byron has tried to save money by doing a job himself. Thereby depriving a professional kitchen fitter of an income. He then wonders why a professional doesn't want the part job or charges him a high rate for the difficult part of the job. He's lucky we can't make our own contact lenses *"

Thats really quite the most rediculous thing I've read on this subject so far! So according to you, should no one attempt to do anything at all themselves regarding trade skills in fear of depriving someone an income?? Are you being serious? And where exactly in my posts have I complained about having to pay a high rate for this particular job???? DO NOT ASSUME!!! I have yet to even garner quotes because I wanted to offer the job to someone on the forum first!! and again I repeat - I did not at any stage request that someone comes and does it for me on the cheap!

And lastly - I don't deal with contact lenses, so get your information correct before you attack me.

Please people, if you are going to slag me off and attack me - atleast do it based on what i've said and with fact, not assumptions and mis quotes.

Oh, I forgot to reply to you scrit regarding the prices you qouted and to that of gary's prices at the beginning of the thread - I do NOT think these are particularly high and would be happy paying these rates (And I dont believe Gary that I ever asked for mates rates), so i'll use these prices as a yardstick when I phone for quotes - unless I decide to do it myself after-all.


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## Scrit (26 Jun 2007)

The problem is, Byron, that the way you wrote your first two posts betrayed some very negative feelings:



ByronBlack":1pdkk0hm said:


> ......but thought I'd put out the call here before contacting the local rip-off merchants/tradesman.



That quote isn't putting words in your mouth, it is what you wrote.



ByronBlack":1pdkk0hm said:


> At the end of the day I have a great respect for all tradesman - most of my family are tradespeople......


So why not ask them for some recommendations? That's a serious suggestion. Tradesmen almost always have contacts because it is useful to have somebody who can handle jobs you can't or aren't allowed to do. The result is that I have friendly contacts with several plumbers and gas fitters, sparkies, plasterers, roofers, builders, etc and in turn I now get a percentage of my work through my contacts.

Your original motivation to offer the job to members here may well be laudable - the way you expressed yourself and the general impression given were most certainly not.



ByronBlack":1pdkk0hm said:


> Oh, I forgot to reply to you Scrit regarding the prices you qouted to that of Gary's prices at the beginning of the thread - I do NOT think these are particularly high and would be happy paying these rates


Beware! As I said I have worked out a tarriff for _tasks_ which allows me to quote effectively for bespoke installs, etc. But I also said I generally won't _charge_ less than a half day (2/3 full day rate BTW) because if I need to spend an hour driving to a job, then have to unload and set-up my kit (and the obverse at the end of the job) it's time out of my working day and I rather like the idea of being paid for it. Unlike many plumbing jobs for example where the toolkit can be carried in a bass, worktops require a very considerable kit of tools which will often take me 20 or more minutes to unload and set-up (and the same to pack-up and put away), so I generally only take on a worktop joint if I'm also doing the cut-outs, end caps, sink installation, etc. That way I get to earn a half-day or days wage and the customer gets the opportunity to have the job done without any c*ck-ups! I doubt that you'll find many people in your part of the world who think differently. As I also said up here it's a _lot_ cheaper - for starters terrace houses can still be bought for under £100k (just) - so I'd expect a home counties rate to be 2 to 3 times my charge rate up here.

Scrit


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## ByronBlack (26 Jun 2007)

Scrit - I appreciate your comments with regards to the time involved of travel/unloading etc.. and will bear that in mind.

I agree to an extent that I could have chosen my words slightly better initially - but I still think i've been harshly treated as I first apoligised and then went on to qualify what I meant by that statement. And some forum members (not yourself in this instance) went on and invented things that I supposed to have said and stirred up a hornets nest.

But back to the original point of tradesman - I did ask around my family if they knew anyone, but they didn't. Plenty of builders/sparkies/mechanics etc.. but no kitchen fitters unfortunatly.

When all is said and done, i'll probably get a cheap postform jig and practice on some offcuts before giving it a go myself if i can't find anyone local.


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## Slim (26 Jun 2007)

ByronBlack":1q8dzair said:


> Also, someone said that I said "90% of all tradesman are con-men" or something to that effect. Well, again, this is not at all what I said



I have re-read this thread and I did mis-quote you Byron, for which I apologise. However, unless you have an abnormally high concentration of real rip-off tradesmen in your area, I cannot see how what you actually said is any better. "90% of all tradesman i've dealt with in my local area over the last few years are exactly as described (rip-off merchants/tradesmen)" Presumably if you moved to another area, you would think that 90% of tradesmen were rip-off mercants there aswell.



ByronBlack":1q8dzair said:


> but I still think i've been harshly treated as I first apoligised and then went on to qualify what I meant by that statement.



I can't find an apology on this thread, but please continue trying to justify your comments.


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## Good Surname or what ? (26 Jun 2007)

Byron,

My apologies, I made a factual mistake in my jest regarding the contact lenses in my earlier post. I have amended it. I hope I am correct this time.

I can't be bothered to trawl back through other threads to find your reasons for doing this kitchen build yourself, but if was incorrect that you have tried to save money by doing the easier parts of the job yourself I also apologise for that inaccuracy too.

However, I stand by my comments about the economy and the extent of the DIM(Y) culture. My experience of tradesmen is competely at odds with yours. Maybe I just value the skills of others more highly than my own. Whatever, I more than willing to pay the going rate for those skills and don't consider it a rip-off.

I hope you get the necessary help with your kitchen whether from this forum or a reputable tradesman.

I'm now exiting this thread as it is too emotionally charged
Phil


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## Anonymous (26 Jun 2007)

Mod note

OK, this has probably run it's course. Please refrain from the personal comments and points, or the thread will be locked.

Please just cool it down a bit.


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## Gary M (26 Jun 2007)

Byron, you too should read over the original postings, 
i merely stated that agreed with what tiler99 said, and in turn, 

i tryed to show you how much was involved in what you foolishly labeled a *very small job*, 



GaryM":315x77wh said:


> go to your local hire shop and get a quote for everything you need for a worktop joint
> jig up to £30.00 per day, router the same, clamps £5.00 , you cant hire a cutter so another £20.00 to buy one all plus vat
> total hire costs for a very small job £99.88 oh and of course the small matter of cutting and fitting the worktop !!
> 
> ...


 
you then in turn retorted with a long post about ridiculous prices apart from the plastering, 
which you then edited out 8 mins later !! why was that, 
* i did see it !!* 
my good friend and fellow tradesman Scrit posted his views on the matter, 
which echoed my own views !! 
you have never once accepted all the various statements about a tradesmans expenditure/overheads ( the whole point of my *attack *on you) until this evening !! 
perhaps Byron if you had made you latest statements sooner we would be talking about the recent floods now !!


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## Scrit (26 Jun 2007)

Gary M":1kswkh3m said:


> perhaps.... .....if you had made you latest statements sooner we would be talking about the recent floods now !!


So was there any flooding in NI, then? 

Scrit


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## Dave S (26 Jun 2007)

I think as the thread has gone on, quite a bit that has been written has been mis-attributed.

One thing that I think applies to many businesses, be they trades, professions or whatever, is that when there is plenty of work around, the larger jobs can be more attractive then the small ones. If asked to quote for a small job, a high price is often given - basically it's saying that they'd rather be doing a £5000 job than the £300 job but that they'll do it if you pay £1000.

The mistake is to assume that £1000 is the rate at which they charge for all work.

Dave


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## Slim (26 Jun 2007)

Dave S":3230hqco said:


> I think as the thread has gone on, quite a bit that has been written has been mis-attributed.
> 
> One thing that I think applies to many businesses, be they trades, professions or whatever, is that when there is plenty of work around, the larger jobs can be more attractive then the small ones. If asked to quote for a small job, a high price is often given - basically it's saying that they'd rather be doing a £5000 job than the £300 job but that they'll do it if you pay £1000.
> 
> ...



Don't agree with that Dave, or at least that is not what I do. Any quotes I give are true reflections on what I think the job is worth. I take on both large landscaping work and half-hour tidy-up jobs. However, I do have a minimum charge for really short jobs.


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## Dave S (26 Jun 2007)

Slimjim81":3nkzx3rw said:


> Don't agree with that Dave, or at least that is not what I do. Any quotes I give are true reflections on what I think the job is worth. I take on both large landscaping work and half-hour tidy-up jobs. However, I do have a minimum charge for really short jobs.



Perhaps I generalised too much, sorry.  I know it happens in my own field (software development), though, and a bricklayer friend of mine told me he does it. 

I think my main point, though, was that it would be a mistake to assume that someone who quoted £500 for a half day onsite would quote £5000 for a week onsite. I think it's a mistake that has been made during the course of this thread.

Dave


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## ByronBlack (26 Jun 2007)

Gary, first of, I edited the post because I knew it was out of order - I'm not so harsh that I can't see the errors of my sometime often wrong reaction. Your right, there wasn't an apology by myself, but I did go on to say that my intention wasn't to offend, and wasn't based on the tradesman of this forum - an apology of sorts, basically you and others are accusing me of something that I didn't say, but we can go round and round and round, and I don't need to keep justifying myself, as I already wanted to extract myself from the debate/attack but you so succintly made it personal that I had to defend myself due to all the BS that was spoken about me later in this thread of which others have now apologised.

Slimjim you said "Presumably if you moved to another area, you would think that 90% of tradesmen were rip-off mercants there aswell. "

Again - your are compounding the argument by yet again presuming something that is not factually true. You and others cannot base an argument on what you presume or assume to be true. I don't know how many times I have to make that point!


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## tim (26 Jun 2007)

C'mon chaps - this actually does have the potential to be an interesting debate without personal attacks and defences irrespective of what has gone before. It would be a pity of the mods locked it after its just got interesting.

Back to the interesting stuff - the size of the job clearly has a bearing on profitability and therefore price. I think that what I do is not hike up prices on small jobs when busy but probably the opposite ie acknowledge that if I am quiet and want some work I may have to take a margin hit and offer a reduced price because of the scale of the job. However if I am busy then the small job has to compete on an even cost footing with the more efficient and therefore higher margin larger jobs. 

This has the effect of making a small job appear disproportionately expensive but on an hour by hour basis would only contribute the same amount of profit as the bigger ones. 

Its quiet easy to see how quotes from various tradesmen for the same job may vary through the year depending on how busy they are.

Cheers

Tim


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## Anonymous (26 Jun 2007)

If its any help Byron, I think your original post was poorly worded but I don't think your the type of person to offend on purpose. I think some of the reactions to this post are over the top. Hey, remember thats me talking, gosh I must be losing my edge.


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## Slim (26 Jun 2007)

Ok Byron, its clear that this is going to get us nowhere, so lets just agree to disagree and let calm return to UKW. :wink: No hard feelings.


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## Anonymous (26 Jun 2007)

Mod note

I think that's a good place to end it.

The posts have still been personal despite my warning, so this thread is now locked.


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