# Mortaring, but upside down?!



## Cozzer (26 Jul 2021)

Just had the upper storey of my house unrendered and re-rendered.
Took 'em over a week to get the original stuff off, and subsequently me to spend over three days sweeping up and getting residue out of the gutters!
What with all the work using two hammer drills, I've had various 'casualties', including an outside coach lamp that got well and truly clobbered, and a couple of double glazed units that have had to be replaced.
Anyway, thinking it was all sorted, I've now found a new problem....
Looking up the rear wall, the guttering is screwed to a soffit - is that correct? - that had mortar behind it. I write 'had', because all the vibration from the hammers has caused it to shatter and fall, so now I've the prospect of filling it....but from below!
One end is probably not going to be a problem, being circa a half-inch gap, but the other end has got to be a good 3" away from the wall.
Can't get to the gap from the top, as it's covered by a tiled roof, so it seems I have no choice but to 'go up'.
How to I make it defy gravity?!


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## Doug B (26 Jul 2021)

I think a couple of photos would probably help a lot, guttering is usually fixed to the facia


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## dizjasta (26 Jul 2021)

Cozzer said:


> Just had the upper storey of my house unrendered and re-rendered.
> Took 'em over a week to get the original stuff off, and subsequently me to spend over three days sweeping up and getting residue out of the gutters!
> What with all the work using two hammer drills, I've had various 'casualties', including an outside coach lamp that got well and truly clobbered, and a couple of double glazed units that have had to be replaced.
> Anyway, thinking it was all sorted, I've now found a new problem....
> ...


Look at expanding foam as filler.


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## Cabinetman (26 Jul 2021)

Now that would really be unbelievably messy in my experience, it will drip all over you and the wall and it’s not nice stuff at all. Ian


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## Ollie78 (26 Jul 2021)

Maybe cut some wooden blocks that will slip in the gap at sensible intervals and then use a good hybrid polymer to fix them in there. 
Once dried and secure you could clad over with a small upvc strip that you can scribe to the gap and fix with capped pins or screws and caps.

Foam could work well but you will need to mask off the area below, you can get some very quick 2 part expanding foam, it is however "a bit mental" and should not be used on very hot days......


Ollie


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## RichardG (27 Jul 2021)

Definitely need a picture, wide mortar between wood and masonary is generally avoided, the wood moves during the year and then a crack develops and then the mortar falls out. Can you not trim with some wood or fibre board?


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## HappyHacker (27 Jul 2021)

I would go for the expanding foam. I cannot remember the name of the stuff I normally use but with a proper foam gun I have had no issues with it running. I have used it to block holes around sewage pipes in plasterboard ceilings without problems. Do not put too much in at a time so that if the hole is deep you build up layers allowing the previous layer time to go slightly off before putting in the next layer. Then cut off any that is sticking out after the last layer. When I have not done this and filled up holes nearly full I just end up with more sticking out afterwards to cut off  Masking is always a good idea if the adjacent surface finish can be damaged by clearing off, especially when you are as cack handed as me.


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

Thanks, all.
Yes, photo's are required methinks!
And yes, Doug B, "facia" is probably the case rather than "soffit". Wasn't sure of correct terminology.
Best get the camera out! More later!


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Jul 2021)

It sounds like you're trying to fill a gap that has appeared between the top of the newly re-rendered wall and the inner edge of the horizontal soffit board.

I wouldn't use expanding foam - it degrades quickly when exposed to sunlight and birds (esp. bluetits IME) eat it (!) - I guess they think it's fungus.

You're essentially trying to fill a gap between two dissimilar materials - so movement needs to be accommodated.

I'd use oil-based mastic e.g. something like this: Everbuild 115 GP Oil Based Traditional Building Mastic 4 colours | Sealants and Tools Direct Note that this stuff can't easily be overpainted, so you need to use a matching colour.

If you're determined to use mortar, the best way is to mix up a stiff (i.e. minimum amount of water, not sloppy) batch of strong pointing mortar (using sharp sand and following the instructions on the masonry cement bag/website) and two trowels - an ordinary bricky's trowel to lift the stuff near to where it's going, then either a pointing trowel or (my preference) a 'slicker' or tuck pointer Marshalltown Tuck Pointer 6 ¾” x 3/8” - DuraSoft Handle - M505D

you load this up along its length and push it up into the gap and slide sideways - while holding the ordinary trowel underneath to catch any droppings.


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> It sounds like you're trying to fill a gap that has appeared between the top of the newly re-rendered wall and the inner edge of the horizontal soffit board.



Almost. (God! Another photo needed! Back very soon!)


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

Right...here we go! Not sure how these photo's are going to appear - they were originally the size of Belgium when I transferred from phone to PC, so I've reduced them in size. I'll try a single to start with...


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

OK...that's not too bad!
The problem area runs from the corner with the downpipe heading for the ladders.
What you (can't!) see is that the single-storey extension is newly tiled, and the pale wall above is the newly-rendered bit. Getting the original render off turned out to be a mammoth task, with lots of damage caused by falling render, before getting splattered everywhere with the new monococque (?) stuff. Anyway, the result was that every gutter was full of the damn stuff, and there's a conservatory (to the left of the photo) that was liberally covered in it.
Let's see how we get on with these 3(?) photo's...


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

Think gutter1.jpg shows the problem best - you can actually see some of the original mortar(?) (cement?) that hasn't fallen.....


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## Spectric (27 Jul 2021)

Nothing worse than messy builders, they should have sheeted everything first and then completely cleaned up at the end to leave no mess for the owner, and I think just filling is not the answer as the "facia" seems displaced. If I was you I would remove the guttering and board to see what is going on. A lot of these older properties did not have facias to which the guttering is fixed but rise and fall gutter brackets that went into the stonework, like these Prostyle Gutter Rise and Fall Bracket BRF8


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## pe2dave (27 Jul 2021)

AFAIK, cement upside down doesn't stick?
Alternatives? Browse the silicon sealant isle for something really sticky, sets (and flexes) and comes out of a tube?
Or something that sticks like sh to a blanket ... whatever form?

No suggestions, but B&Q or a helpful builders merchant?


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Nothing worse than messy builders, they should have sheeted everything first and then completely cleaned up at the end to leave no mess for the owner, and I think just filling is not the answer as the "facia" seems displaced.



To be honest, I'm blaming the un-renderers with their drill hammers, but we've had two different sets of scaffolders, a motley crew of roofers, yet another bunch to re-render, so it could be down to any of 'em. How the previous owners got away with jamming a conservatory on to the extension - thereby Cucumbering any idea of using a ladder to access the upper windows/guttering etc. because of the angle - is beyond me. Almost anything above head height at the house side needs scaffolding, which ain't cheap!

Cucumbering? Ah. Won't allow ********, then!


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> ... If I was you I would remove the guttering and board to see what is going on. A lot of these older properties did not have facias to which the guttering is fixed but rise and fall gutter brackets that went into the stonework, like these Prostyle Gutter Rise and Fall Bracket BRF8



Guttering is new aluminium stuff, so shouldn't cause a problem removing. (Ha! Did I really write that?)
Out of interest, how's the board likely to be attached? Come to think, and to what?


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## Spectric (27 Jul 2021)

The facia board is normaly attached to the ends of the roof trusses and the bottom is closed by the soffit board which attaches to the facia one end and to the bottom of the trusses. In your pictures it looks like it is attached to the wall without any soffit board.


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Jul 2021)

pe2dave said:


> AFAIK, cement upside down doesn't stick?
> Alternatives? Browse the silicon sealant isle for something really sticky, sets (and flexes) and comes out of a tube?
> Or something that sticks like sh to a blanket ... whatever form?
> 
> No suggestions, but B&Q or a helpful builders merchant?


How do you think they plaster ceilings??


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Jul 2021)

Cozzer said:


> Guttering is new aluminium stuff, so shouldn't cause a problem removing. (Ha! Did I really write that?)
> Out of interest, how's the board likely to be attached? Come to think, and to what?


Yes, those vertically-oriented boards don't seem to do much other than support some marginal-quality wiring for a probably energy-wasting/light-polluting floodlight. The critical thing will be to keep any gaps closed between wall and roof, between the rafters. They could be nailed on or perhaps more likely attached with screws+plugs.


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Jul 2021)

BTW - for the love of the wee man (and donkey) - IT'S SILICONE - silicon is different and more crunchy....



Woody2Shoes said:


> How do you think they plaster ceilings??


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Jul 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Alternatives? Browse the silicon sealant isle for something really sticky, sets (and flexes) and comes out of a tube?


That'd be the oil-based mastic I suggested upthread


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## okeydokey (27 Jul 2021)

Google for a brick mortar gun - Screwfix sell them as well - a mix of mortar not to thick and not too runny then you can squeeze mortar out at any angle and it should stick into the crack (as its not a heavy mass) then 30 mins later perhaps run a spoon handle or something smooth and gentle along the mortar to tidy it up - if you need to as its not going to be seen


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## Cozzer (27 Jul 2021)

okeydokey said:


> Google for a brick mortar gun - Screwfix sell them as well - a mix of mortar not to thick and not too runny then you can squeeze mortar out at any angle and it should stick into the crack (as its not a heavy mass) then 30 mins later perhaps run a spoon handle or something smooth and gentle along the mortar to tidy it up - if you need to as its not going to be seen


At the worst end, it's got to be 3" away from the wall. The facia board - see? Getting into the correct lingo now! - is maybe 6" top to bottom. With you saying it's not a heavy mass, do I assume that I don't need to literally fill the void, but (somehow) just fill/seal it along the bottom edge?

EDIT : just a thought, but could I shove some "chicken wire"/similar into the gap before applying cement/mortar/God know what else? Would the wire assist it keying?


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## Adam W. (27 Jul 2021)

Make a timber fillet to fit, fix it in the gap and paint it black.

Then have a beer.

Edit:
Your mortar will end up on the floor, as it's no good in that position


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## okeydokey (27 Jul 2021)

I missed it going from 1/2" to 3" - mortar gun will do 1/2" as will external acrylic sealant (paintable) or silicone sealant (not paintable) but not 3" - so as Adam W suggests timber fillet. Perhaps a fillet cut from Celotex insulation board would be a lightweight filler/fillet and maybe easier as its lightweight to install.


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## pe2dave (28 Jul 2021)

Yes, chicken wire (why didn't I ....). Tack it in, even cement should stick to that.


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## Cozzer (28 Jul 2021)

_What_ a forum this is!
Thanks, chaps, for all the suggestions/ideas, and at the end of the day, based on your experiences and skills.
Fantastic stuff!


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## bluenose (28 Jul 2021)

The first part of Ollie78's suggestion at #5 is your best best without a doubt. It's pretty much the way I would do it.


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## pe2dave (28 Jul 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Maybe cut some wooden blocks that will slip in the gap at sensible intervals and then use a good hybrid polymer to fix them in there.
> 
> 
> Ollie



Product name please @Ollie78 ? I've not heard of that one?


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## MARK.B. (28 Jul 2021)

Was going to suggest stuffing the gap with wire mesh but was beaten to it, have used that method a few times and it has worked every time . get yourself a point master or similar pointing gun, you may need to experiment a bit getting the mix just right but one you do they are a joy to use- far quicker and easier than filling by hand.


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## MikeJhn (28 Jul 2021)

Take all the wires off and fix in the gap, then put on a soffit board, easy enough job to scribe it to the outside line of the horizontal board, I have not read for the beginning of the thread, so may have missed something.


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## Jonm (28 Jul 2021)

A lot of roofs have eaves ventilation. My new build has it continuously between every rafter. Clearly in your case it is not where the mortar has fallen out but may be above the “facia” board. I have mentioned this just in case you decide to box it all in.

The other point to check is that this fascia is bone dry and no signs of rot. I would check particularly where the downspout from the main roof goes in the gutter. As this has probably been removed and replaced, does all the water from the main roof go into the gutter and go to the outfall without splashing over. It should have a shoe to direct it. It would be worth checking when we next have a downpour. Personally I would put a strip of lead here, going from under the tiles to inside the gutter, just to make sure that any water splashes out rather than in. 

The downpipe on gutter3.jpg looks odd, it seems to go to the back/behind the gutter. Unless it is a duct for the cables.

As for filling the gap, lots of suggestions on here, personally I would go for galvanised wire mesh, fixed somehow to wall or fascia with stainless steel screws and washers (probably plugs angled up in to wall. Or s/s screws through fascia to in amongst the mesh) then some mortar. No doubt it will crack but mesh will hold it together and screws stop it falling out.


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## Cozzer (28 Jul 2021)

Jonm said:


> A lot of roofs have eaves ventilation. My new build has it continuously between every rafter. Clearly in your case it is not where the mortar has fallen out but may be above the “facia” board. I have mentioned this just in case you decide to box it all in.
> 
> The other point to check is that this fascia is bone dry and no signs of rot. I would check particularly where the downspout from the main roof goes in the gutter. As this has probably been removed and replaced, does all the water from the main roof go into the gutter and go to the outfall without splashing over. It should have a shoe to direct it. It would be worth checking when we next have a downpour. Personally I would put a strip of lead here, going from under the tiles to inside the gutter, just to make sure that any water splashes out rather than in.
> 
> The downpipe on gutter3.jpg looks odd, it seems to go to the back/behind the gutter. Unless it is a duct for the cables.



I was wondering when someone would spot gutter3!
(Oh God...another story coming up....)
Prior to the extension roof being re-tiled, it was a simple down pipe that finished with an angled shoe - about a foot above the slates - allowing the rain to 'fan out' over the roof and thence into the gutter. The original roof was Welsh slate (we were told, but completely shot) considerably thicker than the new man-made tiles. I suspect the difference in thickness has led to the roof pitch being slightly different...
The new tiles on, the old plastic guttering was replaced by the ally. (Not the downpipe, just the gutter below)
Come the first rain a few days after, the water came down the downpipe at such a rate, it fanned out over the new side roof.....and completely overshot the new guttering!
No matter how I altered the shoe, the result was the same....hence the Heath Robinson affair, with some 60 degree shoe turns and a final 90 to try and guide the water directly into the gutter. Not pretty, but it has worked.

Edit - forgot to mention...I don't think the facia is actually wood. Could be wrong, but might it be 'plastic' with a wood appearance?


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## Jonm (28 Jul 2021)

Thinking again about how to fill the gap, I think I woild cut some ply, say 12mm thick, and cut it in strips say 100mm by 500mm. Get some galvanised wire mesh and roll it so it fits in the gap. Remove the mesh, fill the gap with stiffish mortar, push in the mesh, stainless steel screws through the fascia and in to the mortar/mesh mix. Then fill flush with mortar and put strip of ply horizontally between wall and underside of fascia, Fix ply to underside of fascia with screws So it acts as shuttering. Leave overnight then remove ply and fill any blemishes with fresh mortar, could use a piece of cloth to rub the surface to give it a “bagged“ finish.


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## Cozzer (29 Jul 2021)

Jonm said:


> Thinking again about how to fill the gap, I think I woild cut some ply, say 12mm thick, and cut it in strips say 100mm by 500mm. Get some galvanised wire mesh and roll it so it fits in the gap. Remove the mesh, fill the gap with stiffish mortar, push in the mesh, stainless steel screws through the fascia and in to the mortar/mesh mix. Then fill flush with mortar and put strip of ply horizontally between wall and underside of fascia, Fix ply to underside of fascia with screws So it acts as shuttering. Leave overnight then remove ply and fill any blemishes with fresh mortar, could use a piece of cloth to rub the surface to give it a “bagged“ finish.



I think I'll certainly achieve a 'bagged' finish, no matter what I do!
Yes, yours is certainly an idea to consider, so thanks for that.
(It's certainly a lot more constructive an idea than my wife's, which was "Can't we just move?"!)


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## Spectric (29 Jul 2021)

Most of the suggestions are coverups, rather than get to the bottom of the problems lets just fill the gap and all will be ok, what is actually not yet been revealed?


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## Jonm (29 Jul 2021)

Cozzer said:


> I think I'll certainly achieve a 'bagged' finish, no matter what I do!
> Yes, yours is certainly an idea to consider, so thanks for that.
> (It's certainly a lot more constructive an idea than my wife's, which was "Can't we just move?"!)


Sound like your wife is fed up with building work. Moving house can be extremely stressful and most things are outside your control.


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## Cozzer (30 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Most of the suggestions are coverups, rather than get to the bottom of the problems lets just fill the gap and all will be ok, what is actually not yet been revealed?


That's very true, Spectric. A good point.
Perhaps the corner in question isn't exactly 90 degrees?
Perhaps the uneven surface of the stone 'forced' the builder to fill behind the facia board?
I don't know. Have lived here for almost 20 years and never noticed it being 'out' (before most of it landed on the floor, anyway!)
I've a feeling it was built by the residents prior to the ones we bought the house from, so whatever the cause, it's not caused any problems for maybe circa 30 years....


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