# Windows XP's demise - sits back; opens popcorn



## Eric The Viking (18 Feb 2014)

You probably know... 

... Microsoft are ceasing support for Windows XP on 8th April 2014, including security patches. 

It will become increasingly unsafe to use it after that time. 

There are some ill-informed suggestions circulating that they've backtracked on this: they haven't. Anyone using XP for any activities connected to the Internet would be well advised to use something else. We've been warned about this by Microsoft themselves for several years.

But some are, apparently, in denial. 

In a small cupboard near the back of the Floppy Disk Store of our glorious, best-in-class, National Health Service...

http://www.ehi.co.uk/news/ehi/9226/dh-looking-to-extend-support-for-xp 

I can't begin to describe the stupidity of this. Wrong in so many ways, BUT a corner into which the DoH has been happily painting itself for several years. Will heads roll? I very much doubt it. Don't be ill after, say, May this year, unless they get a proper plan together.

Meanwhile, if you are running XP at home, stop it at once! Seriously, you DO need to act on this. There are several alternatives available, and I can't recommend just one thing.
Look at:


Windows 7
Windows 8.1
Apple Macintosh
A tablet of some sort (Android)
Linux, which is free.(I like Ubuntu, personally but there's several flavours to choose from)

Whatever, if you _don't_ change away from Windows XP before 08 Apr. 2014, unless you are very astute and PC-literate, and careful, your private data will be at increasing risk.

This was a public service announcement on behalf of British Taxpayers and anyone likely to need any form of medical treatment...

... Yup, I'm livid about this. The mainstream media haven't really picked up the NHS story yet, but it should be fun when they do.

E.


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## devonwoody (18 Feb 2014)

I have always refused to have anything to do with my banking on the internet and refused all cc companies and banks my email address.

So was I right?


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## JustBen (18 Feb 2014)

I'm very surprised that people are still using XP. 
It's donkeys years old.

Do people still use Betamax and floppy discs too?


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## Grahamshed (18 Feb 2014)

Anyone not using Apple Macs should be on tablets anyway.
<ducking>


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## MMUK (18 Feb 2014)

JustBen":2kee0jlw said:


> I'm very surprised that people are still using XP.
> It's donkeys years old.



Unfortunately, in my main industry a lot of the programming and diagnostic software I use won't run on anything newer so I'm stuck with XP SP2 on my programming laptop - I can't afford to spend upwards of £30k for all the new software that will run on 7 and x64 OS, why should I when what I have works fine? It's not been connected to the net since I've owned it though, if I need anything I'll use a pen drive in a Win 7 machine to download it.


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## AndyT (18 Feb 2014)

Eric The Viking":1yfbdr7o said:


> The mainstream media haven't really picked up the NHS story yet, but it should be fun when they do.
> 
> E.



"Fun" is not quite the word I would use. I predict that - unlike your very accurate and well-informed post - there will be bigger flurries of misinformation and unsubstantiated finger pointing. As ever, there are many causes and many effects, all tangled up, and the story is too subtle for headline writers.

FWIW I _think_ the blame for non-renewal of the Microsoft EWA belongs in the Cabinet Office rather than with the DH, at the time that they were very keen to be seen cancelling anything associated with the previous administration, whatever the consequences. IIRC there was some talk of a bigger pan-public-sector deal that the NHS would be able to take advantage of, but it never happened, as far as I know.

And for a small ray of light, it's worth adding that quite a lot of Trusts knew about this in good time and took action to secure their share of licences for more up-to-date operating systems, before the people who could help coordinate distribution of licences disappeared into the last Krakatoa-sized redisorganisation of the NHS.


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## JustBen (18 Feb 2014)

I've just read that report and personally I don't think its accurate.

I have a friend who works for NHS IT and he has been rolling out windows 7 for years.

I also work in the health industry and I'm yet to see an XP computer being used.

I'm sure there are a few, but I highly doubt that it's as high as that.

They may also be including machinery that sometimes runs on a stripped down version but a lot of the machines are not online.


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## MMUK (18 Feb 2014)

A friend of mine is a Microshaft engineer. He's been rolling out Win 7 to banks, schools and hospitals/gp's for the last few years without stopping.


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## JustBen (18 Feb 2014)

I can see Harold who is semi-retired and in charge of bed linen stock control in a small village hospital having an XP computer but I find it difficult to see 85% using it and also considering that they have a corporate key given to them by Microsoft.


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## RogerP (18 Feb 2014)

> However, research by EHI Intelligence, published in September, revealed that 85% of NHS desktops were still using the system, while just 14% were running the newer Windows 7 and 1% Windows 8.


That means then every NHS computer I've seen must be in that 14%. Big coincidence :shock: 

Where are the other 85% running? Frankly I don't believe that report.


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## Kalimna (18 Feb 2014)

Justben - I work in a large hospital, been open all of about 3 years. We have XP on all the machines I have seen. I genuinely don't think that the machines (which are at least 4 years old) would manage Win7.
So whether you can believe it or not, XP is not in the minority. Not by a long way. At least in the trust where I work.

Cheers,
Adam


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## Eric The Viking (18 Feb 2014)

Similarly, many of the GPs I know have XP on the desktop. Most are quite unaware of the problems awaiting them.

It's only VERY recently indeed that the market leading GP record system user interface was C-worthy (i.e. underlying technology = DOS).

The player with arguably the best technical solution quit the market abruptly in 2012 (or 2013 - can't remember exactly), leaving the one I've just described, which has just done a rather quick migration to a web-based approach.

The significant point in all this is that Microsoft is most unlikely to keep the XP team going just to satisfy one country's department of health. They are the ONLY people who could continue to provide security patches, and they're not going to do so.

If I was a bad guy, I'd be on sunny, southern shores right now, waiting for, say, mid May-June, when it was certain support was dead. Then I'd come back to the computers and wreak havoc.


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## KevM (18 Feb 2014)

It's not just the NHS, the MOD are at it too:


The Men at the Ministry said:


> _Too many of our line of business applications, of which we have circa 1500, are inadequately
> supported and we probably lack the funds necessary to move them all, in their current guise, onto
> a new operating system as Windows XP goes out of support. We must therefore work together to
> streamline our business, minimise our dependence on this legacy landscape and invest in retained
> ...


Arguably the MOD's use of obsolete operating systems could be considered less vulnerable than the NHS because of fewer external links, and I'm sure somebody will have taken care to upgrade these external links.

Is the 'Windows for Warships' on Type 45 & Vanguard still Windows 2000? 

From: DEFENCE INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY STRATEGY, Released October 2013
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _Final.pdf


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## JustBen (18 Feb 2014)

Kalimna":17pmhi3l said:


> Justben - I work in a large hospital, been open all of about 3 years. We have XP on all the machines I have seen. I genuinely don't think that the machines (which are at least 4 years old) would manage Win7.
> So whether you can believe it or not, XP is not in the minority. Not by a long way. At least in the trust where I work.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam



They build a new hospital and fitted old computers?

My laptop is over 4 years old and runs Win7 happily.

I visit South/North Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Lancashire and Cheshire and I'm yet to see one.

Maybe it's your part of the country?


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## AndyT (18 Feb 2014)

JustBen":11weme80 said:


> Maybe it's your part of the country?



Kalimna is in Scotland. The Scottish health service is almost entirely separate from the English one. It does not answer to the same Secretary of State for Health.


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## woodfarmer (18 Feb 2014)

There is an easy fix for this.

install linux as well. It will ask if you want dual boot so agree to that. then just boot and use linux for anything online, and boot and use use windows apps that you need offline. I run like this because it is much easier to use the windows printer software to change ink cartridges. but that is all I use winxp for. Linux is so much faster and solid.,


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## Eric The Viking (18 Feb 2014)

woodfarmer":369a5cx0 said:


> There is an easy fix for this.
> 
> install linux as well. It will ask if you want dual boot so agree to that. then just boot and use linux for anything online, and boot and use use windows apps that you need offline. I run like this because it is much easier to use the windows printer software to change ink cartridges. but that is all I use winxp for. Linux is so much faster and solid.,



I quite agree. 

The big problem is getting the NHS to do that...


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## Steve Maskery (18 Feb 2014)

OK, I'll admit to being a dinosaur (even though I used to run an IT business).

I have a PC and a Mac. Both have given me grief in the past (I bought the iMac because I was fed up of the PC falling over - the last time I lost 2 months work). But since buying the Mac just over 4 years ago I have had nothing but trouble with it, costing me several hundred pounds, and the 2004 PC, since reloading a clean XP, has performed flawlessly. I wish I'd never bought the Mac.

So I tend to sit in the If-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it camp. My Office software is ancient (2003), as is my video editing software. But everything I have on it is of the same generation and works together. It will cost me a fortune to upgrade. 

I use the Mac for email and surfing and the PC for Office and iPlayer. I don't do a lot else.

When I get up and running again I shall have to upgrade to an HD camera, and I think that means more up-to-date editing software. I bet that means a hardware upgrade too. It's going to be very, very, expensive.

So I can well understand why people take the risk and hope for the best. I'm not suggesting it is sensible, just understandable.
S


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## DrPhill (18 Feb 2014)

I use Linux (Mint 13), but find it far more convenient to install XP on a virtual machine (eg virtual box) than to dual boot. Save the machine state early on, and if it ever gets bent just restore from saved file. 

You can have the Linux windows and the XP windows co-existing on your desktop.

I need XP for developing Android, and sometimes use it for Silverlight.

I think that the security of XP will only be compromised by NEW hacks and exploits. And the motivation for those is declining with declining XP use maybe?


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## RogerS (18 Feb 2014)

AndyT":3v4ths01 said:


> Eric The Viking":3v4ths01 said:
> 
> 
> > The mainstream media haven't really picked up the NHS story yet, but it should be fun when they do.
> ...



Are we sure that it was the Coalition? Labour were also in Govt in 2010 surely?


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## AndyT (18 Feb 2014)

RogerS":ng0n55zm said:


> AndyT":ng0n55zm said:
> 
> 
> > Eric The Viking":ng0n55zm said:
> ...



According to this report http://www.ehi.co.uk/news/ehi/6079 the MS deal was announced dead in July 2010; the government had changed in May 2010.

There was widespread dismay at the time that a relationship with Microsoft was being ended (having previously been praised as a success and extended) without any strategic direction to replace it.


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## RogerS (19 Feb 2014)

Thanks for the clarification and link, Andy, which makes interesting reading - especially some of the comments. However some of it is very unclear...for example

_Because the NHS Enterprise-wide Agreement was for perpetual licences, NHS trusts will still be able to use most existing software and will still have access to Office 2010 Professional and Windows 7 Professional._

which seems to suggest that they can run W7 as part of the agreement. But then it goes on to say 

_But future releases of desktop, operating system and server licences will not be covered._

So does that mean security updates? I'm not up on MS nomenclature and so unclear on exactly what a 'release' consists of.

Leaving all that aside, although it does seem short-sighted, what could the DH have done..especially if support for XP was being dropped?

As ever, it comes down to lack of strategic thinking by politicians and (some) civil servants (I say some as reading posts above it would appear that some NHS Trusts have been forward thinking). That lack of strategic thinking applies to all political parties. Or maybe that should just read 'thinking' ?

It reminded me of several years ago, a Grade 5 civil servant in IND (now Border Agency) saw the film Minority Report and thought wouldn't it be a whizzy idea of have iris scanning at Points of Entry. He saw promotion and a glittering career path as he would have 'solved' the queuing problem at Immigration. So he asked his secretary to ring up Iridium to find out how much it would cost. She rang them and asked the question. Their (correct) response was to try and tell her that it wasn't that simple. That one had to consider all the other factors such as systems integration, change management, hardware procurement etc. The Grade 5 dismissed these factors. "Just tell me how much your software costs" he replied. So they did. And that was the figure that went into the budget for the project. Ho hum.


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## Mark A (19 Feb 2014)

JustBen":2ca95ljo said:


> I'm very surprised that people are still using XP.



I will admit, rather sheepishly, that we have three PC's running Windows XP: one home computer which works quite well, though it does become frustratingly slow when too much is asked of it; and two office computers, which are really on their last legs.

I'm inclined to listen to the opinions of the more computer-literate people on this forum than myself, however I will have to convince those who hold the purse strings is anything is to be done about it.

Could anyone explain in layman's terms the full implications if Microsoft ceases support for Windows XP so I can pass it on to the boss?

Many thanks,
Mark


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## Eric The Viking (19 Feb 2014)

mark aspin":3vcrtmoj said:


> Could anyone explain in layman's terms the full implications if Microsoft ceases support for Windows XP so I can pass it on to the boss?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Mark


Shameless plug (twice): We have had two recent articles on the company blog about this,
this one and this one. Best read in that order.

Hope that helps.

E.


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## AndyT (19 Feb 2014)

RogerS":25vtgo6m said:


> Thanks for the clarification and link, Andy, which makes interesting reading - especially some of the comments. However some of it is very unclear...for example
> 
> _Because the NHS Enterprise-wide Agreement was for perpetual licences, NHS trusts will still be able to use most existing software and will still have access to Office 2010 Professional and Windows 7 Professional._
> 
> ...



I may be wrong on some details as I am trying to remember what other people were talking about several years ago, but Yes, if Trusts had used the agreement for their o/s licences, they can legally run W7 and get security updates, but only for their original number of PCs. They don't have any upgrade path to W8, 9, 10 etc. Similarly they can move their Office users onto 2010 but not 2013 or beyond. 

The end of the central deal meant that the licences all need to be counted and accounted for, up to a fixed number and no further. Hospitals never have had "a corporate key given to them by Microsoft."

Some sites would love to upgrade to W7 but still have the problem that their central admin systems - overdue for replacement but not replaced - include outdated proprietary code that requires them to stick with an old o/s+browser on the PC. That is largely a result of neither the buyer nor the seller of those systems expecting them to still be in use so many years after they should have been replaced.

Somehow it is hard to convince taxpayers and press reporters that "Buying new computers" is a sensible and necessary thing for hospitals to do. Warnings from the IT department of the risks of delay can often be ignored or resisted, especially if set against sacking staff to pay for it.


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## kdampney (19 Feb 2014)

Mark - if (when) Microsoft ceases support for XP, they will stop doing security fixes for it. Which means that when someone finds a security flaw in, say, an obscure part of a messaging protocol that you never use but was installed by default, then they can exploit that to their hearts content. Probably anyone who exploits these things has a long list of what they could do, but are waiting 'til April to use them.

Hypothetically the risks are the same as any internet-enabled PC that is never upgraded - key-logging, monitoring your network, access to files, webcam, etc. etc.

As a previous comment stated, probably other software companies will stop supporting XP too from April (ours is planning to drop it), as the costs of updating and testing software on XP, Vista, 7 and 8 (and IE 6-8, which is all you can upgrade to on XP) is higher than just the most recent versions. Banks could insist you don't access their systems on potentially compromised operating systems, etc.

So best to upgrade. Slightly to my shame (as a software developer!), we still use XP at home, but won't be very soon!


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## Paul Hannaby (19 Feb 2014)

Mark,
The problem is something like this -

Currently, any holes in the security of your operating system (whether it is XP, Win7 or whatever) are plugged by Microsoft fixing the hole and releasing a patch in the form of a security update. After April, no patches will be released for XP so any new holes found in security will not be plugged, leaving you open to attack from malware, criminals after your bank details etc. etc.

This risk is compounded because later operating systems are largely based on the previous ones so under the surface, XP, Vista, Win7, Win8 share some components. This becomes a problem when, after April, if a new flaw is found in Win7 for example, Microsoft will release a security update for Vista, Win7 and Win8 but not for XP. This will serve to advertise the fact that the same hole may well exist in XP and those wishing to exploit it may be able to reverse engineer the Vista/Win7/Win8 patch to identify the hole in XP and use it to attack any XP machines.

It's up to you to decide if the risk is acceptable. Perhaps if you just surf the web and use email for nothing private or personal, having your PC security compromised wouldn't necessarily be a problem to you but if you shop online, do internet banking etc. you would be at risk of having your bank account and payment cards open to abuse.


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## mind_the_goat (19 Feb 2014)

I'd like to think that in a hospital the desktops would be sitting behind a properly managed firewall, on a server running something more up to date and a mail server with some degree of virus scanning. 
This is less likely in a doctors practice but even then an up to date security suite would continue to provide some protection. Not saying it doesn't matter that there is no support but there should still still be some protection from external attacks. This assumes that the issue is with desktops only of course, in these environments one would expect all the important data to be on the servers (No, I don't really believe this is true).
Unfortunately I can't see a big public organisation like the NHS would be adopting Linux anytime soon, especially if they have a heap of proprietary software that only works on windows. It would have been a good time to do it as in my experience the move to newer windows and office versions do cause a productivity drop at first due to the changes in the UI. Moving to Linux would also do this but afterwards you are no longer reliant on Microsoft.


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## AndyT (19 Feb 2014)

mind_the_goat":1ev0b0n9 said:


> I'd like to think that in a hospital the desktops would be sitting behind a properly managed firewall, on a server running something more up to date and a mail server with some degree of virus scanning.



Yes to all three of those.


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## Eric The Viking (19 Feb 2014)

There is an open source movement in the NHS. 

There are a lot of positive noises being made, but very little actual investment beyond the middle management level(s). Or so I believe (and that's how it was at the beginning of last year). I think nobody wants to be responsible for yet another spectacular (failure). 

There are far better informed people on here, and I welcome corrections to the above. 

As to Linux desktops, it's really, really unlikely for the time being, although it would be very sensible long term. In primary care (GPs) the situation is a lot messier still. GPs generally still don't control their IT budget, and in my limited experience can be very poorly served indeed by people they have no management authority over. There's also a very unhealthy lack of competition in the specialist primary care software market here, in no small part because it's been politically unacceptable to use North American software over here (modified or otherwise). IMHO it's not under-investment but really poor upper management.


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## Mark A (19 Feb 2014)

Eric, kdampney and Paul Hannaby - Thanks for explaining it so clearly; I'll pass it on to my father on Friday. Convincing him to buy new work PCs may be difficult, however, as he still doesn't know what a virus is...

Mark


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## RogerS (19 Feb 2014)

Paul Hannaby":3dolh0q3 said:


> .....
> It's up to you to decide if the risk is acceptable. Perhaps if you just surf the web and use email for nothing private or personal, having your PC security compromised wouldn't necessarily be a problem to you but if you shop online, do internet banking etc. you would be at risk of having your bank account and payment cards open to abuse.



Or simply being taken over as part of a Botnet sending out spam to all of us or your computer being used in a DDoS attack.


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## RogerS (19 Feb 2014)

mark aspin":3jz52z41 said:


> .....he still doesn't know what a virus is...
> 
> Mark



But I do hope he is running some good anti-virus stuff on his machine. If not then why not?


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## RogerS (19 Feb 2014)

Actually, this whole XP/NHS thing has raised some huge warning bells. Just how secure are doctor's surgeries, hospitals, health professional's laptops? Are they locked down ? I doubt it. So you're going to have all these XP devices where anyone can stick in their favourite bit of software downloaded from the internet. A compromised piece of software.


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## Mark A (19 Feb 2014)

RogerS":1m3km7zd said:


> mark aspin":1m3km7zd said:
> 
> 
> > .....he still doesn't know what a virus is...
> ...



I've installed Norton antivirus and Malwarebytes on his PCs.


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## Eric The Viking (19 Feb 2014)

Mark, 

You may not need to replace the machines, unless they're quite old: upgrading the operating system to Windows 7 or 8.1 will do it.


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## Eric The Viking (19 Feb 2014)

RogerS":3ghsbmcs said:


> Actually, this whole XP/NHS thing has raised some huge warning bells. Just how secure are doctor's surgeries, hospitals, health professional's laptops? Are they locked down ? I doubt it. So you're going to have all these XP devices where anyone can stick in their favourite bit of software downloaded from the internet. A compromised piece of software.



Yup... that's the nature of the problem, and probably why the DoH appear to be starting to panic.


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## DrPhill (19 Feb 2014)

mark aspin":v46od2gn said:


> Eric, kdampney and Paul Hannaby - Thanks for explaining it so clearly; I'll pass it on to my father on Friday. Convincing him to buy new work PCs may be difficult, however, as he still doesn't know what a virus is...
> 
> Mark



Hmmmm, if it is the parting with money that is the stumbling block then you could likely run a Linux on the same box instead of / as well as xp. Zero cost (well one dvd and a bit of download time). If you want to go this route someone here will burn the install dvd for you. That is the hardest bit if you live on ms-island.

I have been running without any virus protection for over two years now. I still do not know what a virus is. Actually, I do. We had one at work on our carefully controlled and monitored windows-based system. Not smug at all. Oh no. Really.


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## RogerS (19 Feb 2014)

DrPhill":2jd3fin1 said:


> mark aspin":2jd3fin1 said:
> 
> 
> > Eric, kdampney and Paul Hannaby - Thanks for explaining it so clearly; I'll pass it on to my father on Friday. Convincing him to buy new work PCs may be difficult, however, as he still doesn't know what a virus is...
> ...



Trouble is, DrPhill, that there is a learning curve for the user interface surely? I have no idea how much of a curve that is but would suggest that it is perhaps not ideal for some users?


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## Eric The Viking (19 Feb 2014)

I've just done (most) of my first day's work ever using a Linux box. Not much different to Windows XP, at least not so I noticed. I may even stick with it on the desktop (had a different plan in mind).


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## DrPhill (19 Feb 2014)

RogerS":tspxrs9p said:


> DrPhill":tspxrs9p said:
> 
> 
> > mark aspin":tspxrs9p said:
> ...



It depends upon which Linux. I use Mint (Mate 13). As standard it has a 'start' menu button at the bottom left, 'running app' buttons in the task bar, and a desktop that you can drop icons onto.

Windows have menus, maximise/minimise/close buttons. You get a free browser and mail client along with open office stuff.

I converted my wife to Linux Mint. She hated the idea until I gave her a laptop with it on. She was using it in minutes. 'Its the same as windows really' - after all the anticipatory resistance. I have recently offered to reinstall windows if she wants it. 'Why should I?' she says. She really only uses the browser, some games, the text editor, movie player. She never needs to leave the friendly desktop. I am more techy, and do development work. There is still very little that really needs the command line but then it actually makes those things easier. As a developer linux feels 'quality' where windows always felt 'gimmick'. Basic BMW versus tricked up Ford, maybe. The one thing that may put you off is no silverlight support (but that is where a dual boot to XP would be handy).

Some fuzzy images in this review, but it may give you the feel for the thing. Or the official site screenshots here.

Things are different, but less different than migrating from xp to, say, win8.

Plus it is free. Try it. You can run from the install dvd (albeit very slowly) without installing anything to see if your hardware all works (mine did, every time, apart from the multicard slot on one laptop).


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## DrPhill (19 Feb 2014)

Eric The Viking":2y94sz0m said:


> I've just done (most) of my first day's work ever using a Linux box. Not much different to Windows XP, at least not so I noticed. I may even stick with it on the desktop (had a different plan in mind).



Well done. ((Assuming you mean the first day you have worked with a linux box, rather than the first days work ever...... )) Some very dedicated people spent a lot of time reducing the barrier so we could get there easily and for free. The support website (should you ever need it) is frequented by similarly dedicated people. Rarely takes more than a day to solve any problem. Try that with MS.


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## AndyT (19 Feb 2014)

RogerS":3gfyayx1 said:


> Actually, this whole XP/NHS thing has raised some huge warning bells. Just how secure are doctor's surgeries, hospitals, health professional's laptops? Are they locked down ? I doubt it. So you're going to have all these XP devices where anyone can stick in their favourite bit of software downloaded from the internet. A compromised piece of software.



I can offer a bit of reassurance there too. Remember in 2007 when someone in HMRC lost two CDs containing bank details of all the families who were receiving Child Benefit? That was such a noticeable event that it sent some quite productive ripples round the public sector. In 2008 there was a centrally funded bulk purchase of software to encrypt the hard drives of all laptops or designated PCs in the NHS, including those in GP Practices - around a million PCs. A huge amount of work went on as IT departments learned to deploy and manage encryption. Software was also provided to lock down ports so users could not do risky things like plugging in unknown usb drives.

I would not claim that every PC is now perfectly protected according to all the rules, but the situation was hugely improved by that project and the risks of data leakage were substantially reduced.


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## stevebuk (19 Feb 2014)

got my new computer with windoze7 coming next week..


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## Benchwayze (19 Feb 2014)

I was using XP right up until last month. No problems at all, aside from the odd pesky virus. I'm happy with 7 and it works fine, but some of my old programs are not usable anymore. So I am fixing my old PC to run on XP but with no internet connection. I'll have to activate it I guess, but once that's done, I shall disconnect it, and use it as a 'work' computer. saving my files on a memory stick if I need to transfer.


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## Harbo (20 Feb 2014)

If you buy the professional versions of 7 they have an inbuilt XP simulator built into the software.

Rod


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## RogerS (20 Feb 2014)

DrPhill":d1xuq1fy said:


> RogerS":d1xuq1fy said:
> 
> 
> > DrPhill":d1xuq1fy said:
> ...



That's a rather superficial comparison. What you are saying is that Chrome is the same as Safari is the same as Firefox. But they all have their different way of doing things. Different features. Different menu layouts. That is where the learning curve comes in for many people.


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## Eric The Viking (20 Feb 2014)

Benchwayze":3balor10 said:


> I was using XP right up until last month. No problems at all, aside from the odd pesky virus. I'm happy with 7 and it works fine, but some of my old programs are not usable anymore. So I am fixing my old PC to run on XP but with no internet connection. I'll have to activate it I guess, but once that's done, I shall disconnect it, and use it as a 'work' computer. saving my files on a memory stick if I need to transfer.



You *should* be able to get pretty much everything to work on Win 7. There are compatibility options to constrain the way it tries to run older programs. I'd be interested to know what doesn't work at the moment.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't run XP that way, but a couple of thoughts: 

1. make sure you have all the service packs/updates for XP - probably worth saving them to DVD or something, in case you ever need to rebuild it. After April 8th the patches/service packs may well disappear from Microsoft's support site (I don't know this for certain). 
2. A 'middle-aged' PC should fly along with Linux, given the amount of memory you usually need for XP. It might be worth experimenting - you may find you like it! Things that run nicely, natively, on Linux include:

Sketchup
GIMP (picture editor)
Firefox (web browser)
Open Office (MS Office replacement)
Hugin (the virtual-reality panorama editor I use - it's amazingly fast compared to XP)
Aftershot (photographic workflow processing)
Wacom tablets (haven't tried my old serial one, but I'm going to!)
Dropbox (cloud file sharing)
Ubuntu One (more cloud file sharing)
Acrobat readers and writers

If you download the Ubuntu 13.10 desktop image and burn it to DVD (a gnat's too big for a CD now), you can boot from it straight into Ubuntu. 

Ubuntu will run from the DVD (albeit slightly slowly), so you can play with it, and rebooting with the DVD removed will go back to XP with your old machine unchanged (apart from any files you saved to the hard disk whilst you were playing around). 

As several others have said, you _can_ have a machine that lets you choose which you boot from when you start the machine, BUT, as XP usually takes the whole disk during setup, you'd have to either start with a fresh disk or re-partition the existing one (which needs a clever utility to avoid data loss).

Regards,

E.

Hope that's useful.


----------



## devonwoody (20 Feb 2014)

My W7 pro.

Runs xp programs on an xp platform within w7? (that are compatible)


----------



## Mark A (20 Feb 2014)

Thanks for the advice, chaps. I'll certainly consider experimenting with Linux for our home PC; though for the two work computers I think it'll be best to stick with Microsoft as I live too far away to sort it out if anything goes wrong.

Cheers,
Mark


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## ChrisR (20 Feb 2014)

I thought that Microsoft had extended the (XP) support to 2015, I am sure that this was discussed on a previous thread, as I think I posted on that thread, but it may have been on a different forum.

If it was on this forum, then I apologise for maybe covering the same ground. I have been using (XP Media Version) since it was launched, and have still not learnt anything but the basic operation, never been able to use the (Media) part, I think its faulty, who knows ?.

I have resisted purchasing a new computer, as I don’t want start from square one and go through the trauma of trying to learn a new system, and thought that I was ok until 2015, before throwing in the towel. 
So now looks like the end is in sight sooner than I thought. :evil: 

Another point has just come to mind I assume also that all of my data, letters, photos etc, will not be recognised by a new operating system.  


Take care, from a none computer savvy, old git. #-o 

Chris R.


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## Eric The Viking (20 Feb 2014)

ChrisR":28so23r0 said:


> I thought that Microsoft had extended the (XP) support to 2015, I am sure that this was discussed on a previous thread, as I think I posted on that thread, but it may have been on a different forum.



This is not correct. Microsoft have been confusing about this (even the BBC had it wrong initially!), but for practical purposes, support finishes on April 8th 2014.



> Another point has just come to mind I assume also that all of my data, letters, photos etc, will not be recognised by a new operating system.



Not correct either. Almost everything you might use instead of XP will work fine with your documents. 
In fact, I fail to think of something that won't.


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## Racers (20 Feb 2014)

We have had problems at work with some programs not running under Windows 7, not really a surprise as I think we have 2000+
The important ones we have had to up grade to later versions.

Pete


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## Benchwayze (20 Feb 2014)

Eric...

With Win 7, my Canon Scanner is out of date. This also converts transparencies and negatives, to jpg files, and as such was extremely useful. So that alone makes it worth keeping a working XP PC. 

My old Photoshop 6 doesn't work very well.
Half-Life 2 also plays tricks on me. 
A whole series of Medal of Honour games are now useless. (These games cost money!) :twisted: 
But SWMBO reckons I am too old to be playing those sorts of game anyway.  

My encryption program, which I got as a freebie with a magazine, has finally met its match in Windows 7. and I need to buy a new program. :shock: Not that I have much use for it, as Word can encrypt its own files, so my spread sheets are covered. 

Firefox suddenly seems prone to lots of Malware, so I have uninstalled it and I'm trying to use a browser I don't really like, namely Google Chrome.

I also need to get another OCR Program. I don't use OCR often, but it's good to have, to convert hard copy to Word docs.

At least I can still watch my 'Band of Brothers' set, as the DVD reader isn't affected!

Apart from that. I don't have to spend much. Hmm? :lol: 

Ta Eric.


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## ChrisR (20 Feb 2014)

Eric The Viking":r7pte1bz said:


> ChrisR":r7pte1bz said:
> 
> 
> > I thought that Microsoft had extended the (XP) support to 2015, I am sure that this was discussed on a previous thread, as I think I posted on that thread, but it may have been on a different forum.
> ...



Eric.

Many thanks for info, so after April 8th, if (XP) goes belly up that’s it.

The reason I asked would all my data be lost if I upgraded to a new computer and operating system, was from my past experience when I purchased my present computer a (Dell), which was several years ago now when (XP Media) was launched, I was running a (HP) computer, can’t remember which version of windows.

However the Dell came with a transfer lead and a programme on a CD, the purpose of which was to transfer all of the data from my existing (HP) computer to the new (Dell), well that was the theory, but in practice all data was lost, if I remember correctly both computers just locked up, I was advised at the time that it was due to the (HP) and the (Dell) not being compatible. :?: 

As I said in my last post, I think when (XP) closes, its time for me to throw in the towel, as its all getting above my skill level, (which computer wise is near zero). 
But should I decide to take the plunge, and purchase a new computer, with what ever windows version is now being used, to ensure compatibility, transfering my existing data I presume I should stick with (Dell).

Chris R.


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## RogerS (20 Feb 2014)

ChrisR":3uveyct0 said:


> .....
> As I said in my last post, I think when (XP) closes, its time for me to throw in the towel, as its all getting above my skill level, (which computer wise is near zero).
> But should I decide to take the plunge, and purchase a new computer, with what ever windows version is now being used, to ensure compatibility, transfering my existing data I presume I should stick with (Dell).
> 
> Chris R.



Chris, why don't you go to a friendly local computer supplier who will (a) make up a computer for you much more cheaply than buying one from Dell or HP and (b) if you sweet talk him, transfer your data over for you ?


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## Benchwayze (20 Feb 2014)

Chris, 
I don't find much difference in operation between 7 and XP. It's slicker, and one or two operations differ a little. But it's intuitive, and you can even have the 'Classic Windows' view, which looks more like Windows 98 to me! 
Give it a go. You'll be surprised. 

Bester Luck


----------



## Sheptonphil (20 Feb 2014)

RogerS":kqig1a47 said:


> ChrisR":kqig1a47 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Absolutely the route for the less computer savvy and those who have only limited user needs. A good local independent PC shop like mine will be as Roger says, cheaper and far less stressful. 

This last fortnight has seen a big rise in enquirers for replacement computers, both new and refurbed. As I am also a Microsoft authorised refurbisher, we can now upgrade to Windows 7 on suitable XP or Vista systems at very reasonable cost for the licence (£23), making a refurbished computer a great viable alternative for low end users. 

If it's a school or charitable organisation (plus a few other qualifying organisations), the Win 7 and office 2010 licence, under the citizenship programme are only a fiver each. Ask at your local computer shop. 

Phil


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## Eric The Viking (21 Feb 2014)

Sheptonphil":2resttgn said:


> Chris, why don't you go to a friendly local computer supplier who will (a) make up a computer for you much more cheaply than buying one from Dell or HP and (b) if you sweet talk him, transfer your data over for you ?
> 
> Absolutely the route for the less computer savvy and those who have only limited user needs. A good local independent PC shop like mine will be as Roger says, cheaper and far less stressful.



Absolutely.

I'm in the industry. I have been for almost 25 years. 

It's taught me one significant thing: when to throw in the towel and ask an expert. It has now become so specialised that it's impossible to stay on top of all the disciplines. I still do a lot of web stuff, but even there it's hard. 

The trouble with computing (from an insider's perspective) is that every few years some sort of transformational technology comes along and you have to discard a lot of accumulated knowledge. That's OK when you're 25, or even 40 (at a pinch), but I just can't learn as fast as I once did.

Paying those who know isn't a cop-out, it's a sensible route to peace of mind. I just hope you've got someone like Phil in your area!

E.

PS: I just heard this morning that one of my local surgeries is running a lot of XP machines (20+), that have to have internet connections. They don't have a plan from the NHS department supposedly supporting them. It doesn't surprise me.


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## devonwoody (21 Feb 2014)

I have another computer loaded XP and I do not connect to the internet and it works perfectly for all my old stuff.
So ChrisR, keep your xp and continue, if you want to go on the internet just do not have any financial information of any sort on your xp and don't worry.


----------



## ChrisR (21 Feb 2014)

Many thanks, Roger S, John, Phil, Eric and Devonwoody, for your replies.

You have helped me make a decision, as I was thinking along the lines of going to an independent computer builder/supplier, but was also thinking about cost, but you are all correct, if I don’t feel competent then paying for an experienced person, would be money well spent.  

We have a good one locally, he repaired my sisters computer, which included home collection/disconnection, repair = (new power supply unit), return computer and reconnect, was only just over £100.00 including vat, which I thought was very reasonable. 

Now all I have to decide is weather I upgrade or give up, I get great satisfaction from visiting/using sites such as this one, but actually using the computer gives me no pleasure at all. it’s the same as driving my car, its just a necessary evil to get from A to B, hence my car which is in its third year from new has only clocked up two thousand five hundred miles, and a third of that was by my brother-in-law. :roll: 

Many thanks again all.

Chris R.


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## devonwoody (21 Feb 2014)

ChrisR. don't upgrade and continue that's all you have to do.
It will still work.


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## Eric The Viking (21 Feb 2014)

ChrisR":jbohsd1v said:


> We have a good one locally, he repaired my sisters computer, which included home collection/disconnection, repair = (new power supply unit), return computer and reconnect, was only just over £100.00 including vat, which I thought was very reasonable.



He sounds like a good chap. I'd use him.

Get XP upgraded to Windows 7, ask him to make it look as much like your existing machine as possible.

Then go on as you are, in relative safety.

Regards,

E.


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## RogerS (21 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":16yf8d1g said:


> ChrisR. don't upgrade and continue that's all you have to do.
> It will still work.



No. If he is still using the internet and XP then it is irresponsible to suggest this for all the reasons already given.


----------



## Eric The Viking (21 Feb 2014)

Another piece from the computer press, FYI...
http://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news...-windows-xp-and-are-they-dicing-with-disaster

E.


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## devonwoody (21 Feb 2014)

His computer might never become infected, my spare hasn't and I have had it three years and nipped in to the I/e occasionally.
Never put any of the updates in either. 
He doesn't have anything financial on his computer so what does it matter, He can always upgrade if, if , if he got hit. 
Don't visit Viagra sites and you should be ok ChrisR.


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## RogerS (21 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":1te2wtnu said:


> His computer might never become infected, my spare hasn't and I have had it three years and nipped in to the I/e occasionally.
> Never put any of the updates in either.
> He doesn't have anything financial on his computer so what does it matter, He can always upgrade if, if , if he got hit.
> Don't visit Viagra sites and you should be ok ChrisR.



Do you never get spam? Where do you think spam comes from? Do you think that the spammers have 10,000 PCs sitting in a warehouse spamming all day? 

No, they don't. They will use ChrisR's computer and yours if they get a chance. 

dw....I think you are deliberately stirring things.


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## Eric The Viking (21 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":ql87audk said:


> His computer might never become infected, my spare hasn't and I have had it three years and nipped in to the I/e occasionally.
> Never put any of the updates in either.
> He doesn't have anything financial on his computer so what does it matter, He can always upgrade if, if , if he got hit.
> Don't visit Viagra sites and you should be ok ChrisR.



John,

In the nicest way, this is dangerous nonsense.

If you know what a 'rootkit' is, you'll know why I've just written that.

Chris R's personal information may not be placed at risk, but other people's might.

Sorry, but you really are wrong about this.

E.


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## Harbo (21 Feb 2014)

DW - most of the virus attacks I've received have come from attachments etc from friends and relatives!

The only safe way with your outdated stuff is not to log onto broadband?

Rod


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## devonwoody (21 Feb 2014)

You have your own virus security so you should be protected.

ChrisR. might not want to spend £100 or whatever to protect you. (who says you must change your motorcar to a more modern version because it would be safer for other road users?. ) (apart from the mot)

Microsoft should not ditch its customers, and if 500+ million computer owners do not change to W7, then Microsoft have got a problem and then perhaps they will continue to support.


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## Benchwayze (21 Feb 2014)

I've heard that hackers can get into your machine now, even if it's not switched on; if this is true, presumably it's via broadband.

I switch off at the wall, after I have shut down, but the broadband is still connected to my house. Is this how this feat of magic might be achieved?

:?


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## RogerS (21 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":p1v80eqm said:


> ....
> Microsoft should not ditch its customers, and if 500+ million computer owners do not change to W7, then Microsoft have got a problem and then perhaps they will continue to support.



That is such rubbish. Microsoft have already got the money for XP.

dw - you are talking utter b****cks and making me angry.

As I said you are deliberately stirring and I won't bother to respond to you again on this topic.

benchwayze.....urban myth..you have nothing to worry about on that score


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## Eric The Viking (21 Feb 2014)

Benchwayze":zhwqo8l4 said:


> I've heard that hackers can get into your machine now, even if it's not switched on; if this is true, presumably it's via broadband.
> 
> I switch off at the wall, after I have shut down, but the broadband is still connected to my house. Is this how this feat of magic might be achieved?
> 
> :?



Nah. 

No power = no access. 

There is a 'wake on LAN' feature in PCs. It's for business use: the machine can be turned on via a network signal, so that updates, etc. can be done overnight when it's not needed by the normal user. If there's no power available this won't work. You can imagine that feature being exploited by hackers, but it's the only thing I can think of that might start that sort of rumour. 

By the way, it's sensible to disable it in the computer's BIOS (easily done by anyone competent), but most PCs come with it enabled by default (because when machines are being built/set up in large numbers, it's helpful). 

It's always made me nervous (it's been around for 20+ years), but I've never heard of it being a hacking vector. I've never had cause to use it either, but then I've never done PC support. You used to find empty chip sockets on network cards, to add in that functionality*. I never encountered a network card with a boot PROM actually fitted, although it must have been popular otherwise the sockets wouldn't have been there. Wake-on-LAN and booting aren't synonymous though, even then.

E.

PS: I'm beginning to wish I hadn't brought this subject up really! Just don't shoot the messenger...

*well, not exactly, but a closely-related feature.


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## doorframe (21 Feb 2014)

RogerS":ormhfsvz said:


> devonwoody":ormhfsvz said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Sounds like Roger needs a new handbag!


----------



## devonwoody (21 Feb 2014)

I've got a windows 98 on laptop, I occasionally switch it on, I am not chucking it out.

It still works.

(and I want it because I have programs that only work with windows 98) that has had no support for donkeys years. 

There is a download there of a proper pilots license manual that would cost hundreds of pounds to purchase. (it came on a flight sim program disk and that has not worked on any windows computer since)


----------



## ChrisR (21 Feb 2014)

[Don't visit Viagra sites and you should be ok ChrisR.[/quote]

Devonwoody.

Have you been peeking at my computer again. [-X 

Take care.

Chris R.


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## MMUK (21 Feb 2014)

Eric The Viking":2q0wl0co said:


> Mark,
> 
> You may not need to replace the machines, unless they're quite old: upgrading the operating system to Windows 7 or 8.1 will do it.




Bear in mind that you need at least a 1.6GHz processor for 32 bit or a 2.2GHz multi-core for 64 bit for them to run properly.

You also need a MINIMUM of 2GB RAM for 32 bit and 4GB for 64 bit.


----------



## JustBen (21 Feb 2014)

Computers are so cheap to build now, it's not worth the hastle struggling with an old machine,

You can build a half decent machine for about £100-£150.

If anyone needs help with a copy if windows7, just send me a message.


----------



## RogerS (21 Feb 2014)

Interesting thread, this. I have an old Vaio laptop currently running XP but it hasn't been turned on in the last six months. I think I might give Linux a whirl. I am hoping that it will be powerful enough although it is quite a few years old.


----------



## Eric The Viking (21 Feb 2014)

RogerS":1aog3sw5 said:


> Interesting thread, this. I have an old Vaio laptop currently running XP but it hasn't been turned on in the last six months. I think I might give Linux a whirl. I am hoping that it will be powerful enough although it is quite a few years old.



Try the download I suggested earlier. burn to CD as a bootable image and off you go. I've had it running in 1/2gig of memory (but it was a bit slow).

E.


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## Steve Maskery (21 Feb 2014)

That's a good idea. I too have a laptop running XP. I bet it's not been switched on for a year or more I could play with Linux on that.

Does anyone rate Open Office? I have it on my Mac, but I don't like it, it's very clunky, especially the spreadsheet software, compared with MS Office. So much so that I still keep my accounts on my PC rather than my Mac. I suppose I shall have to change my ways.
S


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## Benchwayze (21 Feb 2014)

I copy my finance files onto a couple of pen drives (memory-stick?). Then I use a file shredder to dispose of the originals. I feel safe, but I don't really know if it's secure. So far though, no problems. (Touch Wood!)  I also shred the empty space on my drive every week or so.


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## tnoy66 (21 Feb 2014)

So where is the best place to get this "new" windows 7? My PC must be 6 years old now and I'm not in a position to be able to buy a new one.

I need to look into this Linux thing too I think. If I install this, do I still have direct access to my photos, word docs etc or would they need putting on again in the Linux part? Are word docs readable with a similar Linux programme?

I hate technology at times :roll:


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## DrPhill (21 Feb 2014)

tnoy66":1v4nvvby said:


> I need to look into this Linux thing too I think. If I install this, do I still have direct access to my photos, word docs etc or would they need putting on again in the Linux part? Are word docs readable with a similar Linux programme?



If you dual boot your machine then you will be able to see your old pictures just fine. You will have to hunt a little, but they will be there.
Alternately (and as a safety policy anyway) copy the stuff you really want to disk. Then you can see it on disk.

One of the biggest difference for me was the open nature of the OS. For example windows will only look at 'sanctioned' file systems - FAT16, FAT32, NTFS. Anything else is just 'corrupted disk'. Linux does not care 'oh a windows disk, easy' 'hey thats a mac disk, I can read that'. So when you dual boot, windows will ignore the linux partition, or regard it as 'empty' or 'corrupt'. Linux will recognise the ms partition quite happily and let you look at it using the linux file server. Linux will even try to run your windows programs if you install Wine. Some people have great success with this, I am not a fan. 

There are linux programs that read word docs - Open Office comes ready installed with Linux Mint. MS keeps changing the format to make money and keep ahead of rivals, so sometimes the linux stuff will be a version or so behind. But then most home users are a little behind the MS versions anyway. Again, Open Office will also support other proprietry formats where it can.

Hope that helps

Phill


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## Sheptonphil (21 Feb 2014)

tnoy66":3l5mbfl6 said:


> So where is the best place to get this "new" windows 7? My PC must be 6 years old now and I'm not in a position to be able to buy a new one.
> 
> I hate technology at times :roll:



Unless you buy full retail version at any shop or online retailer, the bet way is to take your computer to a registered MS refurbisher. The job needn't cost more than a retail licence and the work will be done professionally. 

Phil


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## devonwoody (26 Feb 2014)

Dare I mention that the BBC teletext last night stated the was a security problem for Apple computers, plus those ipad things etc. 
The computer situation is unresolved and Apple are working on it urgently.

Just goes to show, you cannot trust computers for financial transactions, the day will come.


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## RogerS (26 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":34osg3s6 said:


> Dare I mention that the BBC teletext last night stated the was a security problem for Apple computers, plus those ipad things etc.
> The computer situation is unresolved and Apple are working on it urgently.
> 
> Just goes to show, you cannot trust computers for financial transactions, the day will come.



Wrong and out-of-date information. The security fix is already out. It only affected Apple 10.9 on the Macs and some versions of iOS.

You really are a bit of a drama queen at times, dw.


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## devonwoody (26 Feb 2014)

Roger the text last night said there was still an unresolved issue with Apple computers.

I was just attempting to point out that even the much hyped up Apple system is not bomb proof either, so all need to beware.


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## RogerS (26 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":2kd1aew6 said:


> Roger the text last night said there was still an unresolved issue with Apple computers.
> 
> I was just attempting to point out that even the much hyped up Apple system is not bomb proof either, so all need to beware.



The text is out of date. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26335701


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## Eric The Viking (26 Feb 2014)

The BBC also mis-reported the issues around XP, causing dangerous chaos in the process.

If you want the accurate detail with these reports, go to the source, Microsoft in one case and Apple in t'other.

That's why I put a link to the *actual* Microsoft article in our blog, and why the BBC had to rewrite 
(presumably after complaints from the public).

Rumours don't help anyone.

E.


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## Mark A (27 Feb 2014)

Success! It only took (_ahem_) 7 hours this evening and I now have a fully functioning computer running Linux Ubuntu! The installation instructions for Ubuntu are quite good; however, it took me several hours to realise that I had to go into the BIOS to change the boot settings from XP to USB. After that it was very straightforward. 

My first impressions with Ubuntu are very good - it's nicely laid out and the Chromium web browser is very rapid, even on my dinosaur of a machine. 

Mark


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## Eric The Viking (27 Feb 2014)

mark aspin":2byj2ils said:


> My first impressions with Ubuntu are very good - it's nicely laid out and the Chromium web browser is very rapid, even on my dinosaur of a machine.



Pleased you're pleased!

I think the as-supplied browser is actually Firefox (it was in my installer), but it is indeed faster than my Windows equivalent (on a more powerful machine). 

You'll find loads of handy goodies in the "Ubuntu Software Center", including WINE, which is a Windows emulator for those troublesome "no-version-for-Linux" bits of software. I'm having a little frustration at the moment with the free version of Sketchup, as its installer is complaining about needing an XP service pack! People have made it work, however, so I'm optimistic that it can. Happily most of my other specialist programs either have very good, free alternatives (e.g. GIMP instead of Photoshop*) or already run under Linux (AfterShot, my photo workflow processor). There are a few oddities that might cause problems (Vegas Pro video editing and Sound Forge audio), but on the whole, I'm beginning to realise I've wasted quite a lot of time and money on Windows in the past.

I don't like the look of the standard Ubuntu desktop though, and on my second Linux box I've replaced it with "Xfce" from "xubuntu" It looks and behaves very much like a cross between the best bits of the 'traditional' old Windows and Mac OSX. The status bar is at the top of the screen, and the 'start' menu drops down, for example. I've had my windows machines running like that for more than ten years (to be more like Macs), so it's not strange. There's also a mac-like "dock" at the bottom. It's also significantly faster than the standard Ubuntu desktop too. I think I'll stick with it. The only drawback was that I had to install Libre Office separately, as it wasn't pre-loaded, but that took about five minutes, literally. 

This particular machine is running 64-bit Ubuntu 13.10, with 4GB of memory. The main box has 8GB, but, as it's only a server, I intend to swap the memory over. It's blazing fast now, even though the processor is a lot slower than my fastest Windows box (the Linux ones have two processor cores, the big Windows box has four!), so it will fly with 8GB of RAM. Overall it cost me £140 approx, which was initially £175 with £50 cashback and shipping. To be fair, I already had a gash monitor and keyboard. The server box was £200 all-in, including a refurbished 19" flat panel and the extra memory (that one was bought on a £100 cashback scheme that's had ended when I bought the second one). So there are bargains out there. 

I enquired yesterday at a local PC shop about upgrading my XP licences to Win 7. They're not Microsoft refurbishers, and weren't very interested. It would cost me around £150 for the Windows licences alone (need the Pro version), without the cost of their time. There IS a refurbisher a few miles away. I intend to get in touch to see what they can offer. 

I'm beginning to think the days of 'stand-and-deliver' marketing in the software business may at last be coming to an end.

E.

*I haven't run Photoshop for about 13 years, as I've found faster and far cheaper tools to do what I need. GIMP is slow under Windows (there is a version for XP and above), but fast under Linux, and it's a very comprehensive graphics tool. There are some odd quirks, for example you 'export' to most standard file types (jpeg, png, etc.) rather than 'save' them, but I can easily live with that.


----------



## Eric The Viking (27 Feb 2014)

Just posted this:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/sketchup-on-linux-t77944.html

It's a bit clunky but it works.


----------



## xy mosian (27 Feb 2014)

In recent years I have helped a number of people to re-jig their computers, purely on an amateur basis. This has generally involved the installation of newer, or different, operating systems. Either done personally or via the telephone offering guidance or just someone to read on-line instructions. 
Most of those I have helped, have been happy to use any system put in front of them provided it worked when switched on. By this I mean that they wished to use the machine in the manner of a tool, not really caring about the way it worked.
I agree, in general terms, with all that has been said about the Linux operating system. However, for someone more used to perfecting secret mitred dovetails, or book matched veneering, the propect of learning to use a different system may well be daunting.
Eric The Viking's post on the installation of Sketchup, sketchup-on-linux-t77944.html, shows one of the problems, and the way to solve it. I wonder how many of those thinking of changing will wonder just what "64 bit" means for example. Most of the problems can be worked around of course, but some will be put off perhaps permanently.
These snags do not only occur with Linux, a friend recently bought a new machine with Windows 8.1 installed, there were difficulties learning just how to use that. The same thing happened when changing from Windows XP to Windows 7. A lot of the tricky bits were akin to finding out where the intermittent rear wiper switch is on a new car, some were more difficult to sort.
As I suggested earlier. Computer users are happiest using a tool, rather than having to set it up. 
xy


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## Eric The Viking (27 Feb 2014)

xy mosian":2chctlb3 said:


> In recent years I have helped a number of people to re-jig their computers, purely on an amateur basis. This has generally involved the installation of newer, or different, operating systems. Either done personally or via the telephone offering guidance or just someone to read on-line instructions.
> Most of those I have helped, have been happy to use any system put in front of them provided it worked when switched on. By this I mean that they wished to use the machine in the manner of a tool, not really caring about the way it worked.
> I agree, in general terms, with all that has been said about the Linux operating system. However, for someone more used to perfecting secret mitred dovetails, or book matched veneering, the propect of learning to use a different system may well be daunting.
> Eric The Viking's post on the installation of Sketchup, sketchup-on-linux-t77944.html, shows one of the problems, and the way to solve it. I wonder how many of those thinking of changing will wonder just what "64 bit" means for example. Most of the problems can be worked around of course, but some will be put off perhaps permanently.
> ...



I can't realistically help that. 

People wouldn't expect good results from a bandsaw, for example, without investing a little time into getting it set up correctly. 

If you want the benefits of a rather good 3D CAD package such as SketchUp, it's wholly unreasonable to expect it to be (a) free, (b) instantaneously productive. I once started to save up for AutoCAD in the 1980s - I gave up after a while when it became clear it was wholly beyond my reach. SketchUp "Make" is far more powerful, and it's entirely free.

In real life, i.e. not on an internet forum, I try to help a lot of people with a lot pf PC issues, _pro bono_ if you will (as it's how I make my income, too). Many have the capacity to understand their PCs sufficiently, but don't want to, for whatever reason. 

It tries my patience. I've told my kids, since they were small, that ignorance and mistakes aren't of themselves shameful things, but I'm resolute that wilful ignorance is indeed shameful. 

And it wastes a lot of other people's time, too (I don't mean you, obviously).

E.


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## xy mosian (27 Feb 2014)

Eric, I agree with all you have said, especially "wilful ignorance is indeed shameful". However some of the posts in this thread appear to suggest that the installation of a Linux operating system is straight forward. For some, perhaps many, it will be. For some it will verge on a nightmare.
xy


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## RogerS (27 Feb 2014)

xy mosian":38zabzrw said:


> ..... For some it will verge on a nightmare.
> xy



Which was exactly my point when I talked about 'learning curves'. I agree with you entirely. 

In many ways it seems to me that the IT industry (in its broadest sense) is simply making a rod for its own back. Years and years ago, emails were simply text. Now they are or can be written in HTML. That opens up a can of worms in terms of possible security holes etc. It also opens up the possibility for more and more complex systems where the change of one component from supplier X has knock-on ramifications with other stuff.

Case in point. My iPod Touch wants me to let it upgrade to the latest iOS 6 to incorporate the latest security fix (and discussed in another thread). But this latest version will only work with iTunes 11. But I don't want to use iTunes 11. I have taken (admittedly) only a cursory look at the user interface and, certainly at first glance, it does not give me easily the information that iTunes 10 does. At least from a classical enthusiasts perspective. I know that I am not alone in this view. It might be possible that iTunes 11 can be tweaked but I lack the energy, time or enthusiasm to try and find out if it does. While I can still use iTunes 10 then I would much rather spend my time doing other more productive things. A point echo'd in your post.

Even if I were to upgrade iTunes 11 I have another vital piece of software (the Logitech Squeeze Server) that interfaces very neatly with my iTunes 10 classical collection. It might also work with iTunes 11 but I'd hate to find out that it didn't. But let us posit that Logitech Squeeze Server does work with iTunes 11. I have other software that in turn then relies on Squeeze Server. Two versions of iPeng (running on iOS 5 and iOS 6), SqueezePlay on the iMac, Squeeze Commander and Squeeze Play on the Android phone. My Android phone runs a particular version of the Android family. I may find then that Squeeze Commander won't work with my Android version (indeed, a newer version is available for my phone but because it only has a wee CPU the performance hit is too great) and that Android has to be updated. Which might then stop other apps on my phone that work with the old Android system but not the new one.

And all because of a security fix! So I don't do that security fix on the basis of my own risk assessment.


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## devonwoody (28 Feb 2014)

Last week I had a Microsoft security alert update which gave the impression it was urgent so I allowed the update in.

Next time I used my scanner/printer Epson, the scanner would not work and I had to find out why, I cured it with requesting scanner default settings . Next thing I needed to replace all colour inks they were low I know but all of them at once, no way. 

So all types of computer suffer from updates.


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## RogerS (28 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":1064wrl2 said:


> Last week I had a Microsoft security alert update which gave the impression it was urgent so I allowed the update in.
> 
> Next time I used my scanner/printer Epson, the scanner would not work and I had to find out why, I cured it with requesting scanner default settings . Next thing I needed to replace all colour inks they were low I know but all of them at once, no way.
> 
> So all types of computer suffer from updates.




I know. I had a security update from Apple and I suddenly found out that my printer had run out of paper. You just can't trust these updates. :wink:


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## devonwoody (28 Feb 2014)

RogerS":3g9imf57 said:


> devonwoody":3g9imf57 said:
> 
> 
> > Last week I had a Microsoft security alert update which gave the impression it was urgent so I allowed the update in.
> ...




Roger that is because you spent so much money purchasing Apple equipment, it left you short of money to purchase more paper.


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## Eric The Viking (28 Feb 2014)

devonwoody":269r9fet said:


> Last week I had a Microsoft security alert update which gave the impression it was urgent so I allowed the update in.
> 
> Next time I used my scanner/printer Epson, the scanner would not work and I had to find out why, I cured it with requesting scanner default settings . Next thing I needed to replace all colour inks they were low I know but all of them at once, no way.



Don't blame Microsoft: I had an Epson printer once. 

Every time I tried to print out the manuscript for my novel, it came out as complete rubbish: poorly drawn characters, transparent plot lines, terrible, clichéd dialogue, etc.

I was so upset I threw the printer away, and haven't tried to print the book since. 

I've no idea how they got it to do that, but I'm definitely not having another one. 

E.


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## Mark A (28 Feb 2014)

Eric The Viking":25i6h903 said:


> mark aspin":25i6h903 said:
> 
> 
> > My first impressions with Ubuntu are very good - it's nicely laid out and the Chromium web browser is very rapid, even on my dinosaur of a machine.
> ...



Thanks for that, Eric. I've had a play about on "Ubuntu Software Centre" but since the PC is only used for internet browsing I don't think we'll need anything other than Chromium on it. On Wednesday I called into a local computer shop and they wanted £125 to upgrade our home PC to Windows 7 (this included £40 for labour). 

Mark


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## MMUK (28 Feb 2014)

£125? :shock: 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Windows-Profess ... s+7+32+bit

£50 for the 32 bit Professional version. It'll take about an hour to install. You can either select "new install" which means it will re-format the HDD and you will lose any data on it, or you can select "upgrade" which will keep any files and programs already on your PC. There's no guarantee that all the programs will work but all Microsoft programs should.

It's an easy process, just put the disc in the drive, it should auto-run (it'll log you off and start doing it's stuff). If it doesn't auto-run, open "My Computer" and double click on the CD/DVD drive icon.

As a precaution, I would recommend backing up anything important to a removable drive first.

If you want a step by step as you do it, PM me for my mobile number.

Or, if you're anywhere near Cardiff / St Melons, I can put you in touch with my mate who's a Microsoft registered engineer


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## Sheptonphil (28 Feb 2014)

If they are registered refurbishers, the Windows 7 licence and disc is £23, plus £40 labour, we do the job for £70. 

As there is no upgrade path from XP TO 7, it entails a backup, clean install, all drivers, restore of data and core programmes, at least two and a half hours work. No programmes can be left from one O/S to the other. 

Phil


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## nanscombe (28 Feb 2014)

For the potential DIY upgraders, a step by step guide by Microsoft.

Upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7



> Introduction
> 
> To upgrade your PC from Windows XP to Windows 7, you'll need to select the Custom option during Windows 7 installation. A custom installation doesn't preserve your programs, files, or settings. It's sometimes called a "clean" installation for that reason.
> 
> ...


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## Mark A (28 Feb 2014)

MMUK":aun21n3q said:


> £125? :shock:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Windows-Profess ... s+7+32+bit
> 
> ...



Thanks for the offer! The problem is a) the office is in Liverpool, and b) I'd rather let someone else do it in case it goes wrong and I get blamed! I'd happily experiment on my own computer but the business PCs are too important to tinker with. 

Cheers,
Mark


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## devonwoody (1 Mar 2014)

Thanks all above for that advice on upping to W7.

Can I get away with using a W7 program disk from my wifes computer if she is ditching that one and put on one of my old xp desktops?


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## JohnPW (1 Mar 2014)

I feel there's some amount of scaremongering from those with vested interests; from Microsoft of course and all those who want us all to constantly upgarde this and that. In some cases there some improvements or more features but most of it is just useless bloatware which slows down your computer which means you have to get a more powerful computer to compensate.

If you must stop using XP then I suggest Linux. There's no reason why you have to pay for an operating system unless you're forced to because when you buy a new computer it already has Windows on it. But the biggest problem with Linux is getting devices to work due to a lack of drivers, eg I couldn't get my TV tuner to work with Linux although my printers and scanners do work.

I'm typing this on a 2009 netbook with XP Service Pack 3 that has never ever been updated. If a website can put some code/software on your computer without your explicit consent then there's must be something fundmently wrong with Windows itself. Don't allow CDs, DVDs, external drives etc to automatically run when you insert them, install Noscript on Firefox and only allow Javascript on a site by site basis, don't open attachments unless you know what they are, don't download anything with a .exe unless you know what they are.


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## RogerS (1 Mar 2014)

JohnPW":3jxhfdyv said:


> I feel there's some amount of scaremongering from those with vested interests; from Microsoft of course and all those who want us all to constantly upgarde this and that. In some cases there some improvements or more features but most of it is just useless bloatware which slows down your computer which means you have to get a more powerful computer to compensate.
> 
> If you must stop using XP then I suggest Linux. There's no reason why you have to pay for an operating system unless you're forced to because when you buy a new computer it already has Windows on it. But the biggest problem with Linux is getting devices to work due to a lack of drivers, eg I couldn't get my TV tuner to work with Linux although my printers and scanners do work.
> 
> I'm typing this on a 2009 netbook with XP Service Pack 3 that has never ever been updated. If a website can put some code/software on your computer without your explicit consent then there's must be something fundmently wrong with Windows itself. Don't allow CDs, DVDs, external drives etc to automatically run when you insert them, install Noscript on Firefox and only allow Javascript on a site by site basis, don't open attachments unless you know what they are, don't download anything with a .exe unless you know what they are.



But John, there are nasties out there that you only need to highlight in your email inbox before setting them off. You can't beat a good AV package on your PC (which I am sure you have). 

Did I say I had a Mac ? 8)


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## Eric The Viking (1 Mar 2014)

JohnPW":w3rd2y1u said:


> I'm typing this on a 2009 netbook with XP Service Pack 3 that has never ever been updated. If a website can put some code/software on your computer without your explicit consent then there's must be something fundmently wrong with Windows itself.


There is. You're taking a risk, but you evidently know what you're doing, to an extent. 

The problem is relatively ignorant people, who don't have the information or interest or background in IT, telling yet others, "I've been doing XXX for years and I haven't had any problems THEREFORE there aren't any and it's all nonsense."

That, of course is an argument from the specific to the general, and invalid, and people get hurt, expensively so. 



> Don't allow CDs, DVDs, external drives etc to automatically run when you insert them, install Noscript on Firefox and only allow Javascript on a site by site basis, don't open attachments unless you know what they are, don't download anything with a .exe unless you know what they are.



You're right, of course, in every detail, but not balanced. 

It's far worse than that. Viruses can exploit flaws in the Acrobat format (or its readers), errors in Outlook's code, bugs in Windows' networking, bugs in firewall/router firmware, bugs in various media streaming protocols, and so on (got a Quicktime update just this morning!). There are many other attack vectors. 

They're real - the lads in our office have to sort out the messes (and deal with the owners!).

Are you absolutely certain that Microsoft's security patches since Service Pack 3 have all been unnecessary for you and don't matter? Are you certain you can confidently tell other people they don't matter for them, either? Are you keeping any data on your machine (other people's names and addresses, or passwords for sites like this one, for example) that might be used to attack other people if your machine was compromised?

Are you confident you can detect a rootkit, if one installs?

Microsoft release very little information about what's wrong with their proprietary code. Security patches have certainly kept a team busy since XP's launch, including all the distribution resources, too. I'm not sure Microsoft would do that merely as a PR exercise.

I write javascript code occasionally. I write HTML5, and CSS3 almost every day, PHP and on occasion SQL (which hurts!) rarely. I understand the source code of web pages (mostly). Even then there's a lot of cross-domain scripting that's very hard to follow, and compressed javascript is (obviously) unintelligible. Even NoScript doesn't guarantee safety if the root domain of the site in question is compromised (and there are many ways of doing that, from man-in-the-middle attacks through DNS hijack to straightforward server hacking).

I hope nothing happens to the machine you're using, but personally I wouldn't be taking the risk.

E.


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## Sheptonphil (1 Mar 2014)

devonwoody":2ugkdelg said:


> Thanks all above for that advice on upping to W7.
> 
> Can I get away with using a W7 program disk from my wifes computer if she is ditching that one and put on one of my old xp desktops?



Hi Woody

Can you 'get away' with it, probably yes, would it comply with the terms of the win7 licence, definitely not. The licence can only be used on the computer it was originally shipped with. Licences (COA's) are not transferable from machine to machine. Certainly through the workshop I could not do it, that of course is not to say it wouldn't work. 

Phil


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## devonwoody (2 Mar 2014)

I assume I have got to increase the memory, etc.?


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## Harbo (2 Mar 2014)

In the past, I've transferred licences to newer machines under XP - had to phone Microsoft and go through a "grilling".
Have they stopped allowing this with W7?

Rod


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## MMUK (2 Mar 2014)

Harbo":27wy2nm8 said:


> In the past, I've transferred licences to newer machines under XP - had to phone Microsoft and go through a "grilling".
> Have they stopped allowing this with W7?
> 
> Rod



No. You can still transfer an OS from one machine to another, it's just the same process as changing your HDD if it fails - you have to phone Microsoft on the freephone number to re-register the license and explain the situation. What you cannot do is run the same license on more than one machine, unless you have a multi-PC or Corporate license.



Sheptonphil":27wy2nm8 said:


> would it comply with the terms of the win7 licence, definitely not. The licence can only be used on the computer it was originally shipped with. Licences (COA's) are not transferable from machine to machine.



See above.


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## Sheptonphil (2 Mar 2014)

Devonwoody's licence appears to be an OEM licence,supplied with the computer and as such the answer remains no. 

From Microsoft, and the rules we must adhere to,

If it's an OEM license - NO. OEM licenses, including Windows preinstalled on a computer before purchase and Windows bought separately, are tied to the first computer they are installed on and can not be transferred to a different computer. To install Windows on a different computer you will need to buy another copy. End quote. 

The way MMUK suggests can only be done (legally) with a retail copy of the windows purchased. This excludes all licences provided by manufactures and system builders. We use OEM licences as they are 30% cheaper than retail and are then dedicated to that computer, although some hardware change is permitted such as a new hard drive or graphics, but specifically excludes a motherboard. 

Been a registered Microsoft partner for over 15 years and we have to accept their rules. 

Phil


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## devonwoody (3 Mar 2014)

Thanks Phil., I wondered why my desktop builder would not supply me with anything but an OEM disk. ~We argued for sometime on the subject and I suppose it tied me to his services as well.

Think I have got a W7 disk that is not OEM somewhere. :wink: :wink: :wink:


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## Robbo3 (4 Mar 2014)

devonwoody":1wni8org said:


> I assume I have got to increase the memory, etc.?


Windows 7 upgrade advisor will tell you if your hardware is capable of running it
- http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/wind ... de-advisor



> Think I have got a W7 disk that is not OEM somewhere.


Where or how you get a Windows install disc is irrelevant.

Mod Edit:- Post edited. Links to Pirated Software Sites are not allowed under forum rules.


> (4.) No Piracy
> Discussion of illegal activities such as software, music, video & DVD piracy and other intellectual property violations are not allowed.


As far as I'm aware what I posted was quite legal otherwise I wouldn't have done so
Digital River is "Microsoft's online service" & the Windows 7 ISOs can be legally downloaded from their site
- http://best-windows.vlaurie.com/boot-disks.html#full

Some people have either limited downloads or a very slow connection thus I offered to help if required.
What I can't (& wouldn't) help with is a legitimate product key (serial number) which should be either on the COA label stuck on the machine or on the original disc case.

So I will repeat my offer to DW - if you don't know to burn an ISO file let me know & I'll do it & send it you on a DVD.


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