# Best dovetail saw



## Lumberman (12 Jul 2014)

I wonder if i can tap into the experience of any seasoned woodworkers. 
I would like to try my hand at making dovetail joints I know that this is a very exacting project to tackle for someone like myself 
who has never done this before. 
I have watched Rob Cosmans video on dovetail joints the saws he reccomends come with a hefty price tag, I was wondering 
if the Veritas saw is a good buy it is relatively cheaper than the Lie Neilsons does anyone know if the Veritas stays tight in the 
kerf. I would be grateful if anybody could advise. 

Harry.


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## Ed Bray (12 Jul 2014)

I bought the Japanese Saw and Dovetail guide sold by David Barron (videos on youtube), I already have a couple of Brass Backed Saws (a Tenon and a Dovetail) but the Japanese saw is really good and whilst like anything practise makes perfect, I have found it to be particularly good for me and much cheaper than Rob Cosman's saw albeit not as pretty, but I didn't buy it because I wanted something that looked good.

I do have to say that the tools that Rob Cosman shows off in his videos look fantastic and they seem to work very well too, but to bring things back down to earth, Paul Seller's tools don't look as pretty, but what he makes with the tools he has does and it just goes to show that you don't need the best looking tool, but the most functional one for you at a price that is reasonable for you.

If money was no object I would have all the tools that my heart could desire (and cameras) and it would be a pleasure to use them, but then I would probably just spend my time doing things that rich people do.


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## bugbear (12 Jul 2014)

Easy.

Veritas.

Most of the well known gurus, forum enthusiasts love it.

What's interesting is that even Paul Sellers, self proclaimed exponent of "another way", "cheap tools can also do good work" also recommends the Veritas saws.

No brainer.

BugBear


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## nev (12 Jul 2014)

I recently bought a 10 quid Zona dovetail saw to try my hand at dovetails. I'm useless at it and I dont think spending another 100 quid on a better saw will make me any better. However if I can manage to get a decent cut with this saw...


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## Berncarpenter (12 Jul 2014)

Over the last 10 months I've been trying to perfect my dovetailing ,first i tried David Barons kit and found i could cut perfect joints almost straight away . If you just want to get the job done this is a very good way. But i then wanted to see if i could do it without the aid of the jig. So i tried lots of old saws and with plenty of practice i managed to get some good results. I tried the verities saws and for me they felt a little awkward and uncomfortable. After using the new lie neilson at the Yandles show i found this was perfect for me . So i guess you need to try out as many saws as you can before you find the one that suits you best.heres some of the practice pieces dovetail marking gauges.






















Hope this Helps 

Cheers Bern


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2014)

Hope this helps? ...Hope this helps?
No! You're just showing off, now!


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

Veritas would work fine. But so would a $35 Pax gent's saw.

Or a Crown dovetail saw:

Chris Gochnour reviewed dovetail saws for Fine Woodworking and the Crown saw (I use one) got 'best value.' The Crown gent's saw was the best of the gent's saw pack. Good tools are being made in your own backyard.

Membership required: http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-gui ... l-saw.aspx

A little about Chris Gochnour: http://www.chrisgochnour.com/

Paul Sellers liked the Crown tenon saw:

http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/crown-te ... -good-buy/

Tight in the kerf is a relative thing, a 5 pt. ripsaw could be tight in its kerf if it had barely enough set compared to the thickness of the plate at the toothline.

Contrary to what you might hear otherwise, it's not exactly impossible to make a slight mid-course correction in a dovetail cut and still come out with a joint that fits pretty well. With a saw with barely enough set to clear the plate, though, this is essentially impossible. Sometimes this sort of saw is presented as one with an air of superior craftsmanship. It is in fact nothing more than a saw with a fine set vis-a-vis its plate thickness. Any saw can be so configured.

In other words, 'tight kerf' is oversold and virtually any saw can be made to be a very tight fit in its own kerf. There is no particular magic or fine saw craftsmanship behind a saw that runs tight in its kerf. And, just because a saw has extra thin plate doesn't mean it can't leave a *relatively* big, fat kerf - just give it more set. Even the thinnest saw can rattle around in its own kerf if the set is incorrect.

Beware of tool catalog hype and those with a habit of amplifying it.

Everybody needs to know how to add or subtract set from a saw before they even know how to sharpen one. You can turn an inexpensive saw into a fine performer by altering set, usually by removing a little but not always. If you get halfway comfortable sawing dovetails sometimes you might appreciate a little more wriggle room.


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## MIGNAL (12 Jul 2014)

These are pretty good:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tamiya-74024- ... 51ae9bb2e0

Blade is 6" long, 1" depth of cut. Mine arrived in less than a week. You get a spare blade. 
Very fine blade and very fine kerf. Perfectly adequate for average density hardwood up to 1/2" thick. Also good for box makers etc. Throwaway when it's blunt.
I also have a Veritas saw at 14 TPI, which does come very sharp. Some may not like the light weight but it doesn't bother me - same with the Japanese saws, they are obviously very light. 
There you have it. Anything from £6 to the £50-£60 for the Veritas. Plenty of other choices between the two.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

I've got two S&J DT saws. They are as good as anything else without a doubt. Don't actually need two I might sell one. Must be worth a fiver.
Saws are simple things. Basically they are as good as the last sharpening


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## tobytools (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob mentioning sharpening shock 

I to have been thinking about a new dt saw, I'll either go japanese or veritas, Im leaning toward veritas as it's the style I prefer with saws. 
As far a dt jigs go they do me any justice maby I can't use them correctly or to their full potential but, a pair of deviders, rubbish saw and a homemade marking knife I do ok.

Robs saws are way to exspencieve to even consider getting one. 


TT


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

tobytools":2awoqu9m said:


> ...
> I to have been thinking about a new dt saw, I'll either go japanese or veritas, Im leaning toward veritas as it's the style I prefer with saws.


It's all down to the last sharpening - the saw itself makes very little difference (within reason). Old S&J, Footprint, etc are as good as anything and cheap cos not fashionable.


> As far a dt jigs go they do me any justice maybe I can't use them correctly ...


Not sure what DT jig you are talking about but I'm sure you'd be better off if without it. Just bin it, you don't need one. A lot of gadgets make things more difficult, not less.
PS who is Rob?


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2014)

Rob Cosman. As in the OP.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

This looks good. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sovereign-Dov ... 1379485784?
Please wait for another one - I've put a tenner on this. I'm not going any higher - there's hundreds of them out there!


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## MIGNAL (12 Jul 2014)

Why do people buy these videos? Aren't there any videos that show you how to do dovetails without the product marketing campaign?


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

phil.p":2m8a65qn said:


> Rob Cosman. As in the OP.


So that's "_Rob Cosmans video on dovetail joints the saws he reccomends come with a hefty price tag"_? Never heard of him.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2zw4gbj9 said:


> This looks good. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sovereign-Dov ... 1379485784?
> Please wait for another one - I've put a tenner on this. There's hundreds of them out there!


  Why? You haven't long told us you've already got two.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2a7nsijn said:


> phil.p":2a7nsijn said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Cosman. As in the OP.
> ...


There are people other than Paul Sellers who make video's.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

phil.p":9nj67v6p said:


> Jacob":9nj67v6p said:
> 
> 
> > This looks good. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sovereign-Dov ... 1379485784?
> ...


I know, I know. :roll: 
I like fiddling about with old tools. I sell them on (usually zero profit) or the place would fill up.


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## frankederveen (12 Jul 2014)

I've not seen the Lie-Nielsen thin-plate dovetail saw mentioned yet. Mine seems to work really well and I get quite reasonable result. For me, it is very comfortable to hold and the thin plate and little set make it a joy to use =)

See if you can try out some of the different saws somewhere? It is a bit more expensive than a veritas for example but I would buy it again in a heartbeat.

Regards,
Frank


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## tobytools (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2cj9q927 said:


> tobytools":2cj9q927 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...




I ment don't do me any justice. As stated I don't use a dt jig ect. The Barron one looks good that's why I'm thinking of going japanese.
Like you say. It's not the saw..

Just like to say I sharpened my current dt saw so that why is probably not that good. Practise makes perfect I guess.

A family member of mine works for some company near London that sharpens everything from chisels to the teeth on a wood chipper. I've just sent sevral saw there to see if that are any good (sacrifice saws tho goodens) and a few chisels. 
I let them sharpen a load of carving chisels before and one came back with a blue end I wasn't happy. That what happens when you get free bees 

Thanks
TT


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## bugbear (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":3nxh4kbf said:


> phil.p":3nxh4kbf said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Cosman. As in the OP.
> ...



That's "odd". You've posted (negatively) about him in the past.

BugBear


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## Tierney (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":1bhilsef said:


> tobytools":1bhilsef said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Rob is Rob Cosman. I saw him in action a couple of years ago at the festival of wood and he made it look so simple. He said that he used to practice every day. He didn't use a guide. I guess it's muscle memory.

I sharpened a saw for the first time yesterday after watching workshop heaven's YouTube video and it was pretty straightforward.

DT


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## Berncarpenter (12 Jul 2014)

frankederveen":38g5rapa said:


> I've not seen the Lie-Nielsen thin-plate dovetail saw mentioned yet. Mine seems to work really well and I get quite reasonable result. For me, it is very comfortable to hold and the thin plate and little set make it a joy to use =)
> 
> See if you can try out some of the different saws somewhere? It is a bit more expensive than a veritas for example but I would buy it again in a heartbeat.
> 
> ...



Hi Frank
The Lie-Nielson saw that i mentioned earlier is the same thin plate saw you have. Today i was lucky enough to try out the Peter Sefton inspired dt saw at his open day , another beautiful tool but it doesnt have the same feel as the Lie-Nielson .

Cheers Bern


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## Corneel (13 Jul 2014)

The LV saw is perfectly allright, and also not unimportant for a beginner, doesn't need fettling or sharpening. You can cut an awfull lot of dovetails before it needs to be sharpened. 

You have to learn sharpening them one day, but it doesn't need to be immediately when you buy a new saw.


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## undergroundhunter (13 Jul 2014)

I have just received (last week) a pax 1776 10" 15 tpi dovetail saw from Peter Sefton's woodworkersworkshop.co.uk it's fantastic. Peter and myself exchanged many facebook messages regarding my saw purchase, with Peter giving some very good advice. If you Google "peter Sefton dovetail saw review" it's the top link to a pdf. I highly recommend you have a read before placing an order. Also in an ideal world it would be better if you could try before you buy as saw handles are like a pair of boots, they need to be comfortable. Depending on your location you more than welcome to come and try my saws for size.

matt


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2014)

There's nothing particularly thin about the LN DT saw. At 0.5mm it's the same as my cheapo S&J DTs. 
0.5mm seems to be normal*, Footprint ditto. Given the same sharpening the performance will be identical. 
It seems that LN sharpening can't be relied upon troubleshooting-a-hand-panel-saw-t81835.html which is astonishing as it is the one thing they need to get right, bearing in mind they are sold mainly to beginners and are bloody expensive.

PS for comparison, 2 classy old saws; 14" S&J tenon saw at 0.8mm, 24" Sorby hand saw 0.9mm


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## MIGNAL (13 Jul 2014)

Most DT saws are 0.5 mm gauge, some 0.6 mm's. The LN thin plate is 0.4 mm's. 
If you are after thin kerf you won't beat the model makers saw that I linked to earlier. That, the odd razor type saw and some of the Japanese saws give a very thin kerf. The steel in these are more like 0.3 mm with hardly any set.


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## bugbear (13 Jul 2014)

http://paulsellers.com/2011/08/looking- ... y-veritas/

!!

BugBear


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## Peter Sefton (13 Jul 2014)

undergroundhunter":1hzz0rz0 said:


> I have just received (last week) a pax 1776 10" 15 tpi dovetail saw from Peter Sefton's woodworkersworkshop.co.uk it's fantastic. Peter and myself exchanged many facebook messages regarding my saw purchase, with Peter giving some very good advice. If you Google "peter Sefton dovetail saw review" it's the top link to a pdf. I highly recommend you have a read before placing an order. Also in an ideal world it would be better if you could try before you buy as saw handles are like a pair of boots, they need to be comfortable. Depending on your location you more than welcome to come and try my saws for size.
> 
> matt



Matt
Good to hear the saw suits you you are right about trying tools first if possible, I always try to advice people on what I believe might best suit their needs but it impossible to guess what might fit somebody else's hand. 

It was good to catch up with Bern yesterday who had a good play with the Pax although the LN is still his favourite. The only way to find out is to try them out for yourself. On the short courses we run we get people to try out the range we stock and some we don't and they as on here will choose which ever suits them and their needs. We find this is the best way to try them out because you can try one and then try another straight away. It is very difficult to test a saw and then compare it two months later in a different venue with another saw. 

Cheers Peter


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## frankederveen (13 Jul 2014)

MIGNAL":1w5gt8pd said:


> Most DT saws are 0.5 mm gauge, some 0.6 mm's. The LN thin plate is 0.4 mm's.


 
The .020" plate on the 'standard' LN dovetail saw is 33% thicker than the .015" one which does make a difference I think. However, I just had a look at the LN website and can't see the thin-plate version anymore. If it has been discontinued then there is little point in recommending it. 

The only important thing is if you like your saw or not. I happen to like mine and wanted to offer it up as an option =) 

Probably best not to go in to sharpening here as that usually ends very poorly


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## Tony Zaffuto (13 Jul 2014)

Peter Sefton":2rxxrhrw said:


> undergroundhunter":2rxxrhrw said:
> 
> 
> > I have just received (last week) a pax 1776 10" 15 tpi dovetail saw from Peter Sefton's woodworkersworkshop.co.uk it's fantastic. Peter and myself exchanged many facebook messages regarding my saw purchase, with Peter giving some very good advice. If you Google "peter Sefton dovetail saw review" it's the top link to a pdf. I highly recommend you have a read before placing an order. Also in an ideal world it would be better if you could try before you buy as saw handles are like a pair of boots, they need to be comfortable. Depending on your location you more than welcome to come and try my saws for size.
> ...



Oh boy, the Thomas Flinn/Pax 1776 saws are getting mentioned on a forum! Next thing you know, they'll be mentioned in the American woodworking magazines and by some talking heads, with prices tripling and otherwise going through the roof!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 Jul 2014)

Jacob's comment is partially correct - a dovetail saw will dull eventually and then needs to be sharpened. At this point it may be in the same category as a vintage saw. However this is not a full reflection of a reason to buy new.

If one is starting out, sharpening is a skill that is yet to be developed. Purchasing a saw that is ready to go makes a lot of sense. Many new saws come sharp, but what can separate a cheap saw from a decent, middle-of-the-range saw is the way the teeth are set. Too much set and the blade will rattle around in the kerf and run off course. Beginners will not be able to correct for this. 

The cheapest new saw that provided me with good performance is the 10" Crown gent saw, which has a straight handle. However I would recommend a pistol grip as this is easier to align and push. The best medium-price dovetail saw is the LV, by the proverbial mile. Get the 14 tpi. This has a wider range than the 20 tpi. The LV also has a gentle rake to the teeth, which makes it easy to start. Nice balance and comfortable handle.

My go-to dovetail saws are the LN Independence and the Gramercy. The LN is not a good saw for a beginner as the teeth have zero rake, which makes the saw harder to start (but powerful in use). The Gramercy is a little "different" from the others with a higher-than-typical hang to the handle, which requires a particularly light touch, something that a beginner takes time to develop. Go with the LV.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## DannyJH (13 Jul 2014)

As with any well made saw, there is a tipping point over performance. Once they are sharp and you are happy with the set, it just comes down to the user's preference with how it feels balanced in the hand. Then with a few hours use you should be able to cut to any line as accurate as your skill allows.

I own a Pax for example and and cut just as well, or as bad, as with the Adria, that i prefer, that i use at work


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## MIGNAL (13 Jul 2014)

It's not_ just _user preference though. A lot of it is technique and technique that isn't difficult to learn. Just a bit of time experimenting and practice. Some people seem to take an immediate dislike to the Gents/Japanese saw (broom stick) type handle. That's it, every time they see a saw with a broom stick handle they avoid like it's riddled with a contagious disease. In reality it's just a fairly simple matter of adapting to the new grip. Once learned (not that it takes much!!) it's there for life.


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## Harbo (13 Jul 2014)

My experience with a Crown saw is completely different. 
I bought a 22TPI Dovetail one which came with a really crappy stained beech? handle. 
This was soon rectified with a new one but the cutting performance is so slow with that number of teeth, that I very rarely use it.
And sharpening is a nightmare!







Rod


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## Harbo (13 Jul 2014)

My favourite western saws are my two Gramercys that I bought it kit form:
Gramercys with two Wenzloffs











But the saws I tend to use most are my Japanese including a Sunchild.

Rod


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## MIGNAL (13 Jul 2014)

I've sharpened 26 TPI (Zona saw) by simply filing straight across with a needle file, not even turning the saw around. You should be able to do that at least 3 or 4 times before things start to get too uneven.


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## G S Haydon (13 Jul 2014)

Corneel":3bp5j04v said:


> The LV saw is perfectly allright, and also not unimportant for a beginner, doesn't need fettling or sharpening. You can cut an awfull lot of dovetails before it needs to be sharpened.
> 
> You have to learn sharpening them one day, but it doesn't need to be immediately when you buy a new saw.



A very important consideration for any newb. Otherwise a non sexy S&J would be just fine. I bought a cheap Zona but not had the chance to try it out yet.


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## bugbear (13 Jul 2014)

G S Haydon":37k7qcn5 said:


> Corneel":37k7qcn5 said:
> 
> 
> > The LV saw is perfectly allright, and also not unimportant for a beginner, doesn't need fettling or sharpening. You can cut an awfull lot of dovetails before it needs to be sharpened.
> ...



Yeah - otherwise you'd have to learnt how to sharpen saws before you cut your first dovetail, which might be considered a "bit of an overhead".

BugBear


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## jimi43 (13 Jul 2014)

If Rod's bringing out the saw porn...I think it should be ok to show the best saw I've ever seen and used...






Ok...back to regular programming! :mrgreen: 

Jimi


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## Harbo (13 Jul 2014)

Beautiful!!

Rod


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## Corneel (13 Jul 2014)

Aha, time for dovetail saw porn:


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## bugbear (13 Jul 2014)

Corneel":1yrzla9s said:


> Aha, time for dovetail saw porn:



Stop enjoying lovely tools!

You're doing it wrong!

You shouldn't be happy!

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

BugBear


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## Berncarpenter (13 Jul 2014)

Ok here is my favourite for now , if you get the chance try one  











I would like to thank Peter Sefton for kindly letting me loose with his stunning tools and for being a great host at the open day.

Cheers Bern


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

It is telling, isn't it, that you never see a poor set of dovetails from a good looking saw!

Mike.


Berncarpenter":gy369t5x said:


> Ok here is my favourite for now , if you get the chance try one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Corneel (14 Jul 2014)

To be honest, I make better dovetail saws then dovetails. (hammer)


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## pedder (16 Jul 2014)

Corneel":1o1izppd said:


> To be honest, I make better dovetail saws then dovetails.



Now that is me.


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## Peter Sefton (16 Jul 2014)

We all have our own skills guys, making saws is not one of mine!


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## GLFaria (17 Jul 2014)

Peter Sefton":100up9iz said:


> We all have our own skills guys, making saws is not one of mine!


Your dovetail saw review taught me a couple tricks for sharpening dovetails saws. Thanks.


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## whiskywill (17 Jul 2014)

THIS is a dovetail saw.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyXFE_biEwc


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## whiskywill (17 Jul 2014)




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## jimi43 (17 Jul 2014)

Oh dear...both ends of the food chain in this thread....EH!? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jimi


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## Peter Sefton (17 Jul 2014)

whiskywill":wtliqvix said:


> THIS is a dovetail saw.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyXFE_biEwc




I see I have been doing it wrong all along, next week I am running a dovetailing and drawer making course I may have to update my techniques after seeing this  Thanks for posting


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## whiskywill (18 Jul 2014)

I somehow double posted but the edit function doesn't have a delete button. Why not?


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jul 2014)

I just delete everything and leave a smiley.


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## richarddownunder (28 Jan 2015)

Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?

BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).

Thanks

Richard


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## undergroundhunter (28 Jan 2015)

richarddownunder":16w0j50f said:


> Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?
> 
> BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).
> 
> ...



I have a 15TPI Pax from Peter Sefton's tool shop. I not sure that the difference in TPI will affect the smoothness at this sort of level (what I mean is that I don't think you would notice too much), the only thing that will really be affected is speed of cut. The only time I wish I had bought the 20 TPI is when I'm using really thin stock as the 15 TPI creates a lot of vibration (in thin stock anyway), I may buy a Veritas 20tpi for these occasions (hammer). Any excuse to buy a new tool!!

Matt


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## Harbo (28 Jan 2015)

Really thin stock - buy a cheapo Razor one.

Rod


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## richarddownunder (28 Jan 2015)

OK thanks. Couldn't see that on his web site but will have a better look. Does yours have the pear handle (instead of the maple one that Thomas Flinn are currently offering on their web site)? If so, what do you think of it?

Cheers
Richard


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## Peter Sefton (28 Jan 2015)

richarddownunder":bn2fgal1 said:


> Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?
> 
> BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).
> 
> ...




The Pear 1776 are made exclusively for me. The 1776 used to be Elm which I didn't like and after using Pear Flinn's liked it's characteristics so much they dropped using the Elm. Pear is not readily available or cheap so they decided to now make their own 1776 in Maple. I select and prep the Pear before despatching it to Flinns for manufacture. 

You are right 20TPI is more difficult to file and set, I have only stocked and shown 20 TPI on the website but have had saws made for others who have enquired with 15TPI.

The 20TPI is the best tooth size for thin material 6mm to 12mm but 15TPI will cope better with thicker material, you need to find a balance between how many teeth are in contact with the timber (clean smooth cutting) and how fast you want it to cut (less TPI)

We have been readdressing the saws we stock, we did carry 36 variations in Dovetail and Tenon saws but are now concentrating on a core range which will be including a new 15TPI Dovetail / small Tenon saw with a Pear handle. I spoke to Sheffield yesterday and I am eagerly awaiting my first batch of 15TPI later this week like an expectant father.

I will be adding these to the website once I have them in stock and I have tested one.

We do send our tools all over the globe and we are just quoting on a plane to New Zealand, so if you are interested let me know.

Cheers Peter


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## keithkarl2007 (28 Jan 2015)

Berncarpenter":1ermbwwr said:


> Over the last 10 months I've been trying to perfect my dovetailing ,first i tried David Barons kit and found i could cut perfect joints almost straight away . If you just want to get the job done this is a very good way. But i then wanted to see if i could do it without the aid of the jig. So i tried lots of old saws and with plenty of practice i managed to get some good results. I tried the verities saws and for me they felt a little awkward and uncomfortable. After using the new lie neilson at the Yandles show i found this was perfect for me . So i guess you need to try out as many saws as you can before you find the one that suits you best.heres some of the practice pieces dovetail marking gauges.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ooh I like them. There's just something about using tools made from wood that I love. I've seen metal winding sticks somewhere but I'd always prefer the wooden equivalent.


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## Peter Sefton (28 Jan 2015)

The templates look great Burn, I love the group photo.

You are right try saws (and other tools) for yourself if possible, they are such a personal thing what works for one person may not work for another.

Cheers Peter


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Jan 2015)

richarddownunder":36icwob6 said:


> Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?
> 
> BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).
> 
> ...




Generally speaking, smaller teeth for smaller work. A saw with 20tpi would be ideal if your usual work was small jewellery boxes, small drawers with sides of 3/8" (10mm) or less; 15tpi is a good all-rounder, and something like 11 - 12tpi would be ideal for larger dovetail work such as carcase sides of about 7/8" to 1" (22 - 25mm) thick, especially if you gang-cut them - hence the old term 'carcase saw' for a saw of about 12" length with about 12tpi.

Unless you're doing a lot of dovetailing work of great variety, it's not really worth having a saw for every duty. Most people find that a saw of 8" to 10" long with about 15tpi covers all they need, with the added bonus that it'll cut small tenons and suchlike as well. Handles are very personal; some prefer the open pistol type, some the closed type, and some the straight gent's saw type. (If I were starting again, I'd buy a really good vintage 10" saw and refurbish it, recutting teeth if necessary, and supplement it with a small 6" gent's saw of about 20tpi for really tiny work. However, refurbishing saws is something of a hobby in itself, and it's unlikely that really good results will be obtained with a first attempt. For the person that just wants to work wood, buying a new, sharp, saw is probably the better bet.) 

The best bet is to invest in a saw you really like the look of, and use it often to get to know it's foibles. It's practice with a decent tool that builds skill, rather than buying a fabulously expensive tool and expecting instant perfect results (which won't happen without the practice!).

Edit to add - rip cut teeth are best for a dovetail saw. As the teeth are small, you'll find it'll cross-cut quite effectively too. There's no need for a rip and a cross-cut saw. The other advantage is that rip-filed teeth are easier to sharpen than cross-cut when that need arises.


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## richarddownunder (29 Jan 2015)

Thanks for your replies and advice. A 15 tpi rip may be the best all-round saw then. I'm interested in Peters pear-handle Pax 1776 ones, so I'll stay tuned for the 15 tpi version. Lovely dovetail pictures by the way...wish I was that neat! I need to do some practice obviously.

Thanks

Richard


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## swagman (30 Jan 2015)

Hi Richard. For fine joinery and carcass work 14 - 16tpi is good target to aim for. You also don't want a heavy tooth set. One that just clears each side of the saw plate is ideal. 

A saw plate thickness of 0.020" would also be a good recommendation. 

A rake angle of (-)10* will also make the saw more compatible to both rip and crosscut work. 

Stewie;


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## rafezetter (30 Jan 2015)

MIGNAL":yop2mb3w said:


> These are pretty good:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tamiya-74024- ... 51ae9bb2e0
> 
> ...



I've used something very similar to the one above, for scale modelling and they do indeed give extremely thin kerf cuts, 0.40mm to be precise with no set - not used it for dovetails, but I _have_ used it to separate scale model components like moulded car doors and such where the cut has to be super accurate, so would work just as well for dovetails. My version is also not induction hardened so I'm guessing it could be re-sharpened if you had the skill and patience.


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## wellywood (31 Jan 2015)

richarddownunder":sn1zzmss said:


> Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?
> 
> BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).
> 
> ...



I'm just south of you, in the Hutt. I bought a Pax 1776 10" 15ppi direct from Thos Flynn via their website. Had to wait a few weeks for a production run but I figure that's a good sign that the saws don't hang around on shelves waiting for buyers.
Very pleased with it.


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## richarddownunder (3 Feb 2015)

Hi Wellywood

thats good to hear. I'll go with the Pax 1776 as well - probably go with the pear handled version discussed above. BTW, like the name. Palmywood doesn't quite work!

Cheers
Richard




wellywood":j01zoeio said:


> richarddownunder":j01zoeio said:
> 
> 
> > Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?
> ...


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## Jacob (4 Feb 2015)

Best value of all is the S&J 8" dt saw. They are still cheap on ebay £10 or less. Usually about 18 tpi. Blade is 0.5mm 0.020" thick. Excellent classic little saw.


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## richarddownunder (12 Feb 2015)

Jacob":1pdzoxhv said:


> Best value of all is the S&J 8" dt saw. They are still cheap on ebay £10 or less. Usually about 18 tpi. Blade is 0.5mm 0.020" thick. Excellent classic little saw.



I'm sure they are good, and plentiful too in UK. In these here parts, not so much. Its a matter of buying on e-bay and posting at great cost. Last time I did that I ended up with lemon of a block plane from the US quite different to the one pictured. So, lesson learned, I either get things locally which are more limited in number, or buy new. Usually from our friends Thomas Flinn.

Cheers
Richard


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## richarddownunder (16 Mar 2015)

Hi 

I've been reading some of Pauls Sellars woodwork blog - the more I read, the more I get frustrated :evil: . He seems to be scathing of British saws (and pretty much all British toolmakers) and seems to take every opportunity to have a dig - they an't what they used to be, essentially, in nearly every post. Whether or not he has a valid point (and he probably has in general), I feel the comments are quite destructiuve to the good UK tool makers, some of which we have discussed in this thread. Does anyone else feel the same? The problem is as he is so prolific, his posts seem to be the first the pop up in Google. I have received my Pax 1776 and think it is of very good standard and I bet it is as good as the Veritas he promotes so freely.

The type of comment I am questioning include statements like this "I don’t generally recommend British makers any more because they have forsaken standards set by early makers to pump out saws less exacting than those made in the USA or Canada. "

There are those who would disagree I imagine.

Cheers
Richard


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## swagman (16 Mar 2015)

H Richard. Unfortunately the Free Market System has exposed the U.Ks high cost of manufacturing. Something Maggie should have considered further during the 1980s. 

Australia is not immune to those same cost issues.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch37-thatcher.htm

Although seen as a strong advocate for the Free Market System, some policies by U.S. tend to favour self protectionism. 

http://mises.org/library/ronald-reagan-protectionist

Stewie;


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## richarddownunder (16 Mar 2015)

Hi Stewie

Thanks for the links.

I've read similar before and the end result is prices are higher for UK or Australian (or NZ)-made goods. However, its not entirely the price I'm on about. US forum contributors and teachers (have you ever seen one use anything but a Lie Nielsen in demos) etc are extremely patriotic. They have good tools so why not. There ARE some good UK manufacturers by the looks of it (I'm no expert but I've bought some really nice tools over the past few years), just as good as the US manufacturers that I have seen, granted, that isn't so many - most of the bad British makers have gone under by now. Its the good makers I feel for. It must be very discouraging to have vocal commentators make comments such as the one I posted which damns the whole industry and if there is one way to ensure its failure, it seems to me, that is it.

So, yes, it is an uneven playing field heavily tilted to the US. However, there are plenty of UK manufacturers who manage too, from what I have seen of scientific (my area really) equipment etc coming out of the UK, quality is generally on the up.

I guess I'm passionate about British tools having collected them since I was a kid. The tools i have are like old friends and I just don't like to see such a prominent voice running down manufacturers (by implication) I believe are striving for a quality product under difficult circumstances. Phew, glad that is off my chest!

Cheers
Richard


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## Andy Kev. (16 Mar 2015)

I took up woodworking just under two years ago and found myself wondering, as a Brit, where on earth all the top quality British tool makers were. My main source of information was the internet, as it probably is for most people these days.

I think there may be a number of reasons for the too low profile of British toolmakers. Firstly, we seem to lack the genius for marketing that is omnipresent in N. America. For instance, just have a look at the Lee Valley catalogue: it has you drooling over what's on offer and the range of things offered is fantastic. Where is the British retailer who can hold a candle to that?

Second, the Americans embraced the industrialisation of everything much quicker than we did. They don't seem to have our natural conservatism. I get the impression that writers like Christopher Schwarz looked into the electrical/mechanical abyss, had a fright and then became evangelical about hand tools. Perhaps we just take their presence for granted and so don't preach about them enough.

Third, it does seem a terrible shame that the leading British internet presence is running down British tools. The best response to this is to demand evidence for his assertions. Are Veritas saws demonstrably better than their Pax equivalents? Are LN and Veritas planes streets ahead of Clifton planes? I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the answer is "probably not as they are all roughly of the same quality".

Everybody benefits from firms on both sides of the Atlantic striving to up their standards and break new boundaries of quality and if a firm is not up to scratch, then we need to hear it. Ideally the UK needs its own internet megastar - not with a view to running down N American toolmakers (which would be absurd) but rather with a view to redressing the balance, raising profiles and singing praises where they are due.


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## richarddownunder (16 Mar 2015)

Andy Kev.":38rxybtv said:


> I took up woodworking just under two years ago and found myself wondering, as a Brit, where on earth all the top quality British tool makers were. My main source of information was the internet, as it probably is for most people these days.
> 
> I think there may be a number of reasons for the too low profile of British toolmakers. Firstly, we seem to lack the genius for marketing that is omnipresent in N. America. For instance, just have a look at the Lee Valley catalogue: it has you drooling over what's on offer and the range of things offered is fantastic. Where is the British retailer who can hold a candle to that?
> 
> ...



EXACTLY what I mean, but much more eloquently put than my post. Tool reviews on both side of the Atlantic really suggest that the good UK tool makers are just as good. 

In other areas, where technology has been adopted and merged with traditional techniques, you get fantastic results like Air Arms air guns if anyone cares to look them up. Small British manufacturing companies can make word-leading products even when economics are stacked against them and there is an example.

Cheers
Richard

Cheers
Richard


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## mouppe (16 Mar 2015)

I follow Paul Sellers' blog and I think you are confusing two of his principal themes. The first is that he rubbishes previously good manufacturers such as Nicholson because their current quality is no good. The second is that he doesn't recommend premium makers such as LN because you can get a vintage plane to do as good a job. I don't think I've ever seen him denigrate Clifton or Pax specifically. 

He does seem to generally hold Veritas in high regard however. I think this may be because he spent so many years living in North America and kitted out his teaching schools during this time, Lee Valley would probably have been one of the best sources for him.


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## mouppe (16 Mar 2015)

Also I can tell you as a Canadian that despite the majority of my tools being from this side of the Atlantic, the British influence in terms of writers, history, techniques etc. is enormous. Just look at C. Schwarz's book on campaign furniture last year for example. F&C is the only magazine I subscribe to. 

Just one further thing to bear in mind is that Paul Sellers is sometimes writing with a readership over here in mind, and the Veritas saw is only about £40 here. I think he recommends it as being excellent value at that price.


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## jimi43 (16 Mar 2015)

Whilst I don't disagree with the need to support home industry...I think that the industry itself in the UK petered out with mass production and foreign imports and Paul and others were justified...at the time...for going overseas for fine performing saws.

However...the increased interest in hand tools...is particularly welcoming and has resulted in a market for specialist toolmakers to start to emerge and hopefully this trend will continue.

I recently did a review of one such saw maker...SKELTON SAWS...as part of a very kind pass around and I was thrilled that not only was the old English saw maker's skills alive...but it was very well thank you and living in Yorkshire!






In the review, I mentioned that had I not already owned a beautiful TWO LAWYERS TOOLWORKS dovetail saw I would be getting one of these fine British saws.....

Ok...I lied...and since it's my birthday soon...(my excuse and I'm sticking to it)...I didn't get one...but two...um..these two actually....






I will be reviewing the new carcass saw too soon....but for now...rest assured....there are some really high spec British saws...hand made in the traditional way to the formula that both Shane of Skelton Saws...and I feel was the pinnacle of our ancient craft.

Add to this the Thomas Flinn company still make a fine production saw...still at an affordable price and still exporting TO the Americas....and their marketing seems to be doing well enough for discerning customers....enough for them to take over another great British maker...but that's another story entirely! :wink: 

So...nil desperandum......we might not shout from the tree tops...we may use traditional materials and methods and not modern synthetics....but we still make them...and thankfully still do a bleedin' good job!

Jimi


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## richarddownunder (16 Mar 2015)

Hi Mouppe , no I don't think he names names. I guess its the sweeping statements that I noticed like the one I quoted "I don’t generally recommend British makers any more because they have forsaken standards set by early makers to pump out saws less exacting than those made in the USA or Canada. "

Of course he can have a preference for Veritas, they are apparently very good (but there are folk on this forum much better placed to say that from experience than I am) and I really like the innovative side of that company. Good for him on promoting second-hand or refurbished tools, not griping with that either. But, unless I'm completely missing the point, the quote speaks for itself.


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## Jacob (16 Mar 2015)

jimi43":2whho7l4 said:


> Whilst I don't disagree with the need to support home industry...I think that the industry itself in the UK petered out with mass production and foreign imports a...


I think the hand tool industry petered out with the massive decline in hand work. Whilst there was demand on an industrial scale the quality was kept up but demand was falling off rapidly from the 50s onwards. The old names are still around but making modern machine tools with just a few hand tools on the side.


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## jimi43 (16 Mar 2015)

Jacob":22sa33ew said:


> jimi43":22sa33ew said:
> 
> 
> > Whilst I don't disagree with the need to support home industry...I think that the industry itself in the UK petered out with mass production and foreign imports a...
> ...



Oh I would not disagree with that Jacob...you are quite right.

And the reason that hand tools have become popular of late is purely because people are starting to see the merits of the tranquility of them versus loud and dangerous power tools....which are ok in the production environment.

When I semi-retired I had more disposable time (HA!!)....and I actively sought ways of working in more peaceful and relaxing way.....for enjoyment rather than need.

For some stuff though..the lathe and mill are still tools I would not be without! Oh...and the bandsaws.... :mrgreen: 

Happily this new "skilled hobby" sector serves to make a niche market for hand made tools and for me..this is great.

The Internet has ironically, promoted this!

Jimi


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## mouppe (16 Mar 2015)

Richard, Paul wrote this in response to a question from a person called Richard on Pax saws on the same blog you lifted the quote from. I think it would be fair to post it here. 


"16 March 2015 at 12:34 am
Richard says:
Hi Paul

Plenty of peolple recommend Thomas Flinn saws, they seem to do very well in independant reviews, even in the US (especially their back saws). The Veritas is a little less expensive so is good value but the Pax saws and not hugely more expensive. I think many users would argue that the Thomas Flinn saws are as good as those made in the US or Canada. This is quite a nice little review http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... icle57.pdf however, there are others reviews in US magazines also praising Pax saws. I really like my 1776 dovetail saw but have only had it a short time.
Reply

16 March 2015 at 6:11 am
Paul Sellers says:
Yes, their upper end dovetail saws work fine. I generally don’t recommend saws with more than 16tpi because they are so small and they are more tricky to sharpen, especially for those new to sharpening. Such small teeth can be filed completely out in a single stroke. Also, I did choose their dovetail saw to use in one of my videos on cutting dovetails and it compared well with the US makers. Hard to imagine at one time Sheffield would have had 50 saw makers instead of just one."


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## jimi43 (16 Mar 2015)

Good post mouppe.

Might I also add that...as was the norm in the Victorian times too...Thomas Flinn have also acquired quite a few of the old makers into their brand...and more than that...they are proud to state this and perpetuate these famous names. This shows pride in the old makers rather than just buy-outs for the sake of gaining market share or indeed...almost a monopoly.

Other makers who were famous for saw making have concentrated on products which have retained popularity...a classic example of this would be Robert Sorby specializing in woodturning and (as far as I'm aware)...dropping handsaws from the brand.

Others have moved away from traditional styles, concentrating rather on the DIY area with hard point saws...a market which was still sustainable at the time because of powerless site use.

Jimi


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## richarddownunder (16 Mar 2015)

mouppe":2jk3t5vj said:


> Richard, Paul wrote this in response to a question from a person called Richard on Pax saws on the same blog you lifted the quote from. I think it would be fair to post it here.
> 
> 
> "16 March 2015 at 12:34 am
> ...



Hi Mouppi

Nice...of course, the richard is me  . Good to see his response is generally positive, perhaps, in contrast with his original post. The TPI may be a bit of a red herring. I'll stop banging on about this but I guess in the end, the first thing you see when you Google 'which dovetail saw should I buy' is the original comment which will remain on the internet in the future. Despite this, it sounds like Thomas Flinn is going from strength to strength, so I, for one, am happy to hear that.

Cheers
Richard


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## G S Haydon (16 Mar 2015)

It should level itself off in time. As long as quality stuff comes out of the UK enough people will get to know.


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## goldspanner (31 Mar 2015)

I've heard good things about the Veritas, if you're wanting a western saw - Paul Sellers recommends it.
As for Japanese, the Gyokucho that David Barron sells (Workshop Heaven also sells) is probably the best, and around the same price.


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