# Question about bike brakes



## Tris (14 Aug 2021)

As I know there are many keen cyclists here I hope someone can provide some ideas. 

Some time ago my wife bought a 1980s Raleigh ladies town bike. I'm giving it a bit of an overhaul but have hit a problem with what we laughingly call the brakes. The original callipers are flimsy pressed steel and flex massively when applied. The reach on the arms is about 95mm and try as I might I cannot find anything with that sort of reach in an alloy fork. 

Does anyone know of a brand that might fit? Or a work around that doesn't require permanently removing the mudguards?

Thanks in advance

Tris


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## Rorschach (14 Aug 2021)

Switch to discs?


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## paulrbarnard (14 Aug 2021)

Tris said:


> As I know there are many keen cyclists here I hope someone can provide some ideas.
> 
> Some time ago my wife bought a 1980s Raleigh ladies town bike. I'm giving it a bit of an overhaul but have hit a problem with what we laughingly call the brakes. The original callipers are flimsy pressed steel and flex massively when applied. The reach on the arms is about 95mm and try as I might I cannot find anything with that sort of reach in an alloy fork.
> 
> ...


Perhaps just some good quality brake blocks will help. Alternatively you could replace the wheels, forks, frame and levers and fit disks as suggested by Rorschach


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## Rorschach (14 Aug 2021)

FWIW I don't like disc brakes, yes they are much more effective for braking, and less troubled by mud and wet etc but they are not without their drawbacks compared to simple caliper brakes. 

Not that it makes much difference to me at the moment, I can't remember the last time we got the bikes out lol!


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## Duncan A (14 Aug 2021)

You mention alloy forks but I would expect a bike of that vintage to have steel forks. 
If that is indeed the case, it may be worth asking a good bike shop if they can braze on fittings for cantilever or V brakes: V brakes vs cantilever brakes - 4 areas to learn what brakes are best for you - restoration.bike 
Duncan


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## novocaine (14 Aug 2021)

Something like a set of weinmann 947 would be improvement.


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## whatknot (14 Aug 2021)

Perhaps posting a picture of more of the brakes fitted might help

I have various Raleighs over the years and the brakes have always been quite solid so I wonder what type you have


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## Southdownswolf (14 Aug 2021)

How about a set of Tektro long reach brakes?




__





TEKTRO 900A Deep Drop Brakes (pair) | £26.00 | Brakes | Caliper Brakes | Spa Cycles


Buy TEKTRO 900A Deep Drop Brakes (pair) for £26.00 at Spa Cycles




www.spacycles.co.uk


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## weekend_woodworker (15 Aug 2021)

Southdownswolf said:


> How about a set of Tektro long reach brakes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s what I fitted to an old bike I acquired which I used to use for whizzing down the hill to the station each day. Worked well, but I did also replace the steel rims with alloy ones which made a real difference breaking in the wet.


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## Phil Russell (15 Aug 2021)

What you have is a typical Raleigh leisure / commuter bike of that era... model Wayfarer maybe, or Transit? The brakes are perfectly adequate when set up correctly but can be improved by better brake blocks. I suspect the wheels, if original, have steel rims (26" x 1 3/8") so blocks made for steel rims should really help... some are faced with leather. Alloy forks? As original the forks would be steel. To be honest I do not know if you could fit alloy forks, maybe you could if you get the spec right for head tube etc. My guess is that the bike is worth maybe £40 - £60 maybe more if in excellent condition and with a 3spd hub. Is it worth trying to put alloys on it? ... wheel size could be a problem as well.
Check the brake components; spacing washers can wear, bolt holes can wear but overall these brakes were efficient for what they were designed for.
I do not think trying to put disc brakes on it would be possible or, if possible, economic. You may find a s/h hub with a back pedal brake but doubt if it is worth looking; and if you have 3 speed now, you would lose it.
Cheers, Phil


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## pe2dave (15 Aug 2021)

Disks require welding on the frame.
Take the bike to a 'real' bike shop and ask for replacement mechanism and cable.


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## Nelly111s (15 Aug 2021)

Look to see if SwissStop do brake blocks which fit. They will be an improvement.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Aug 2021)

If it has the standard Raleigh chrome steel brakes of that era then whilst they aren't the greatest they should work ok. You say the calipers themselves flex? I find that hard to believe as they are quite thick steel. I think what you are probably seeing is the two parts of the caliper moving relative to one another, or to the fork This is because the bolt through the middle is incorrectly adjusted. You need to adjust the bolt so it is just loose enough to allow the two parts to move freely, but no more. If it's too loose then under braking you will see the whole thing rock to and fro, which is probably what you are referring to. Properly adjusted and with the correct blocks they should be fine.


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## Tris (15 Aug 2021)

Thank you for all the replies and advice, I should have typed calliper not fork which some of you have rightly queried.
I will try to get a couple of photos later. The rims are indeed steel, and quite polished. The first thing I did was to put new brake blocks on, rubber not leather, and clean the rim surface. When the brakes are applied the blocks move forward by about 10mm or so. I think the next step will be to strip down the calliper and check the mounting holes for wear.
As was said, the bike isn't worth a lot, if the mounting holes are out or round then it's probably scrap, if not I'm tempted by the textro(?) brakes and some better pads.

Thanks again
Tris


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## whatknot (16 Aug 2021)

I can't remember ever seeing the forks wearing, but wonder if your movement problem is missing or wrong fitted washers/spacers? (on the bolt that passes through the forks) 

There is usually a shaped (curved) spacer either side of the forks, if one or other is missing or fitted wrongly it would give the movement you describe



Tris said:


> Thank you for all the replies and advice, I should have typed calliper not fork which some of you have rightly queried.
> I will try to get a couple of photos later. The rims are indeed steel, and quite polished. The first thing I did was to put new brake blocks on, rubber not leather, and clean the rim surface. When the brakes are applied the blocks move forward by about 10mm or so. I think the next step will be to strip down the calliper and check the mounting holes for wear.
> As was said, the bike isn't worth a lot, if the mounting holes are out or round then it's probably scrap, if not I'm tempted by the textro(?) brakes and some better pads.
> 
> ...


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## Tris (16 Aug 2021)

I managed to strip down the callipers yesterday and found that two washers were a soft aluminium alloy that had worn through. This meant the arms were able to slide about, giving the movement I had found before. Quick clean and reassemble with new washers. Now they grip with minimal movement but it seems the cable to the rear brake has seen better days. I'll replace the cables and fit some better brake blocks and hopefully it will give an old bike a few more years.


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## robgul (17 Aug 2021)

If you're at Moreton-in-Marsh you could go into Cotswold Cycles (in the estate oposite the Fire Service College entrance) for some advice (not really their bag but the mechanic is/was a helpful chap - OR call in at the Cyclcists fighting Cancer shop on the A3400 at Alderminster as they refurbish old bikes (with parts harvested from scrap machines) - something like the Tektro brakes or Alhonga dual-pivot if you can find them are a good replacement - and as suggested if you have steel wheels they will provide poor braking when wet compared with alloy.

I used to manage a bike shop - if I can help give me a PM (I'm at Stratford-upon-Avon and still doing some bike repairs and servicing)


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## Tris (17 Aug 2021)

Thank you, Cotswold cycles have been very helpful on advice in the past, but as you say this wouldn't usually be their thing. 
I'd forgotten about the CfC shop, I could drop off a couple of my daughter's outgrown bikes at the same time.


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## artie (17 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Switch to discs?


I bought a bike a few years ago and went for disc brakes. I was really disappointed, they were terrible.


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## Rorschach (17 Aug 2021)

artie said:


> I bought a bike a few years ago and went for disc brakes. I was really disappointed, they were terrible.



They have their pro's and con's. They are great for mountain bikes used on rough muddy ground for example.


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## Fergie 307 (18 Aug 2021)

Tris said:


> I managed to strip down the callipers yesterday and found that two washers were a soft aluminium alloy that had worn through. This meant the arms were able to slide about, giving the movement I had found before. Quick clean and reassemble with new washers. Now they grip with minimal movement but it seems the cable to the rear brake has seen better days. I'll replace the cables and fit some better brake blocks and hopefully it will give an old bike a few more years.


A notorious problem with these brakes was always getting them aligned correctly with the rim. When you do the bolt up they move so the blocks don't contact the rim on both sides at the same time. The official Raleigh method was to do them up tight, then use a punch on the relevant side of the spring to fine tune the alignment. They even produced a punch with a half round groove in the end to fit over the spring for doing this, part of the tool kit you were presented with at the end of their five star mechanics course at the Nottinham factory back in 1970 something, I still have mine somewhere.


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## Tris (18 Aug 2021)

That's useful to know, explains why it took me ages to get them centred. I'm sure I've got an old punch somewhere I can adapt.
Presumably you have to make the adjustment close to the loop of the spring otherwise the spring would absorb the shock rather than bend?


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## TRITON (19 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> FWIW I don't like disc brakes, yes they are much more effective for braking, and less troubled by mud and wet etc but they are not without their drawbacks compared to simple caliper brakes.
> 
> Not that it makes much difference to me at the moment, I can't remember the last time we got the bikes out lol!


What drawbacks ?

Powerful braking system - Check
Works in all weathers - Check
Doesn't destroy the rim in use - Check
Extremely low maintenance - Check
Comes in a range of nifty colours - Check

Seems to tick all the boxes.



> I can't remember the last time we got the bikes out


Nothing stopping you, still reasonable weather out there. Get out and enjoy. Bring a picnic, split up the riding time and take a rest, refill the energy reserves and return home.


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## novocaine (19 Aug 2021)

Drawbacks of disc brake?

Lack of knowledge on how to install them- check
Buying cheapest of the cheap because they all look the same- check
Back fitting them to a lever not designed for discs (cable only) -check.
Lumping all disc brakes in to one pile -check

Did i miss anything?


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## Bigegg (19 Aug 2021)

novocaine said:


> Drawbacks of disc brake?
> 
> Lack of knowledge on how to install them- check
> Buying cheapest of the cheap because they all look the same- check
> ...



none of those are actually drawbacks of disk brakes per se., though, are they?


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## Rorschach (19 Aug 2021)

TRITON said:


> What drawbacks ?
> 
> Powerful braking system - Check
> Works in all weathers - Check
> ...



Parts are more expensive.
More difficult to find spares, they tend to be more model specific than caliper pads.
Discs can warp.
Fiddly to adjust properly, especially on budget sets. Clearances often very low.
Annoying noise when one pad rubs.

Like I said, both types have their pros and cons. I personally think the cheap and simple caliper system is best for your average user, especially cycling around flat towns where you do very little braking. For mountain bikers or heavy users they can certainly be advantageous. 

I know we should get the bikes out, we just don't have the time and living where we do you need to dedicate several hours as we have to drive to somewhere to actually cycle.


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## Rorschach (19 Aug 2021)

Bigegg said:


> none of those are actually drawbacks of disk brakes per se., though, are they?



No he is having a go at me because that is the favourite pass time of this forum. I dared say something that someone didn't like so it's pile on time as usual.


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2021)

TRITON said:


> What drawbacks ?
> 
> Powerful braking system - Check
> Works in all weathers - Check
> ...


Used to do a lot of heavy touring (i.e. carrying camping gear) and weekend rides and got through a number of rims on the same hubs and spokes - cantilever brakes. Would have disc brakes if doing it again, without a doubt. Pay for themselves very quickly if you do the mileage, on top of the other advantages.


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## Rorschach (19 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Used to do a lot of heavy touring (i.e. carrying camping gear) and weekend rides and got through a number of rims on the same hubs and spokes. Would have disc brakes if doing it again, without a doubt. Pay for themselves very quickly if you do the mileage, on top of the other advantages.



Sounds like the perfect situation for using discs


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## Jacob (19 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Sounds like the perfect situation for using discs


Haven't rebuilt a wheel for 8 years or so, since easing off, so wouldn't need discs now. Do have a problem with breaking spokes occasionally as they have been through several rebuilds. I'm a bit of a skinflint.
PS just remembered one rim going at end of trip as we cruised into Roscoff. It got me to the ferry as long as I didn't try to brake but had to push off the ferry as it was completely gone. 
We didn't seem to bother in the old days - seemed normal to camp up for a bit and hitch-hike off to get a spare. Carrying a wheel or looking like a cyclist guaranteed immediate lifts, no waiting at all!


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## paulrbarnard (19 Aug 2021)

I got my fancy road bike before disks were readily available. It has carbon rims and consequently no brakes when it rains. I would love to switch to disks but no way I can justify changing my bike. I’ve nor cycled for a week now as my knee is giving me grief. I’ve had surgery on both knees in the last 10 years.


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## Selwyn (19 Aug 2021)

I would rather rim brakes than mechanical disc brakes any day of the week.

Have a gravel bike with disc brakes and it is lovely. But for summer zipping about in the dry a rim braked carbon bike is also lovely.


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## TRITON (19 Aug 2021)

novocaine said:


> Drawbacks of disc brake?
> 
> Lack of knowledge on how to install them- check


About the same for any component on a bike.
Average member of the public clued up about choice and fitting of a set of cranks, servicing a wheel hub or even rebuilding a headset is probably just as low.
But then who is it that actually installs disc brakes on a bike - the bike mechanic. Much like a car. Who fixes the fuel injector system, changes a head gasket or even fixes a puncture ?,certainly not for the main part the cars owner. So is that any sort of reason for not having such.


Rorschach said:


> Sounds like the perfect situation for using discs


There are no specifics, discs are suitable for all types of cycling.


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## Rorschach (19 Aug 2021)

TRITON said:


> There are no specifics, discs are suitable for all types of cycling.



Of course, but that's like saying a HGV is suitable for all types of driving. Technically true but it wouldn't be the best choice for every persons circumstances.


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## TRITON (19 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Of course, but that's like saying a HGV is suitable for all types of driving. Technically true but it wouldn't be the best choice for every persons circumstances.


No it isnt. What a silly analogy


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## Rorschach (19 Aug 2021)

TRITON said:


> No it isnt. What a silly analogy



I'm not going to get into an argument about brakes, I have enough arguments ongoing here at the moment.


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## M_Chavez (19 Aug 2021)

I'm yet to see decent disks on a road/cx bike. Work like a dream on MTB, but in my experience road versions are rubbish with STIs.

Just my two pence.

Why not ditch the brakes and go fixie?


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## Fergie 307 (20 Aug 2021)

Tris said:


> That's useful to know, explains why it took me ages to get them centred. I'm sure I've got an old punch somewhere I can adapt.
> Presumably you have to make the adjustment close to the loop of the spring otherwise the spring would absorb the shock rather than bend?


Yes on the loop, or close to it. You aren't trying to bend the spring, the idea is it moves the whole assembly round on its pivot so you can get both blocks to contact the rim at the same time when you pull the lever.


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## Fergie 307 (20 Aug 2021)

M_Chavez said:


> I'm yet to see decent disks on a road/cx bike. Work like a dream on MTB, but in my experience road versions are rubbish with STIs.
> 
> Just my two pence.
> 
> Why not ditch the brakes and go fixie?


I think we have all got carried away and completely lost sight of the original problem. If you are trying to fix up an old bike, worth maybe 50 quid, then to suggest fitting it with discs is pretty daft. If you have a bike that does not already have the fixing points and so on for discs, then it is never really going to be a cost effective conversion. New hubs to take the discs, modifications to the frame to fit the mounting lugs for the calipers, the list goes on and on. Better to just go and buy something that already has them fitted.


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## Jacob (20 Aug 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I think we have all got carried away and completely lost sight of the original problem. If you are trying to fix up an old bike, worth maybe 50 quid, then to suggest fitting it with discs is pretty daft. If you have a bike that does not already have the fixing points and so on for discs, then it is never really going to be a cost effective conversion. New hubs to take the discs, modifications to the frame to fit the mounting lugs for the calipers, the list goes on and on. Better to just go and buy something that already has them fitted.


Yes or just bin it and buy another. Or cannibalise.
There isn't really a problem at all - our OP is just learning routine bike maintenance the old fashioned way!

Why don't lightweight road bikes have discs? Is it just weight?
PS answer here 8 reasons not to get disc brakes — find out the hassles before you switch


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## novocaine (20 Aug 2021)

M_Chavez said:


> I'm yet to see decent disks on a road/cx bike. Work like a dream on MTB, but in my experience road versions are rubbish with STIs.
> 
> Just my two pence.








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> Why not ditch the brakes and go fixie?



because a fixie still has to have a front brake according to the letter of the law in UK. 

oh and Rorschach, nope, not aimed at you.



> But then who is it that actually installs disc brakes on a bike - the bike mechanic. Much like a car. Who fixes the fuel injector system, changes a head gasket or even fixes a puncture ?,certainly not for the main part the cars owner. So is that any sort of reason for not having such.




that would be me then.  I'm the bike mechanic, qualified as such and everything (because qualifications are really useful when a person turns up with a BSO and complains it isn't working).

WARNING, FOLLOWING COMMENT MAY CAUSE OFFENCE.



> There are no specifics, discs are suitable for all types of cycling.



Track cycling isn't suitable for discs. 



> Why don't lightweight road bikes have discs? Is it just weight?



They do have discs. have done for the past 5 years minimum. they do often sell the same bike with calipers though, because, people.


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## novocaine (20 Aug 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I think we have all got carried away and completely lost sight of the original problem. If you are trying to fix up an old bike, worth maybe 50 quid, then to suggest fitting it with discs is pretty daft. If you have a bike that does not already have the fixing points and so on for discs, then it is never really going to be a cost effective conversion. New hubs to take the discs, modifications to the frame to fit the mounting lugs for the calipers, the list goes on and on. Better to just go and buy something that already has them fitted.


Because thread drift is considered as a past time on this forum.


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## slavedata (20 Aug 2021)

I am hoping soon at long long last to receive my Swytch electric bike conversion kit. The kit has a replacement front wheel. My biggest concern about fitting the kit is moving the existing disc brake to the new front wheel. Bike is a Boardman CB Comp.
Anyone worked on one of these? Do I need any special tools to move the disc brake? Anything to watch out for?


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## novocaine (20 Aug 2021)

slavedata said:


> I am hoping soon at long long last to receive my Swytch electric bike conversion kit. The kit has a replacement front wheel. My biggest concern about fitting the kit is moving the existing disc brake to the new front wheel. Bike is a Boardman CB Comp.
> Anyone worked on one of these? Do I need any special tools to move the disc brake? Anything to watch out for?


you will need need a t25 torx bit (most likely, as it's been the norm for 10+ years to use torx on discs) to remove the disc from the wheel. 
you will need a 5mm allen key to align the disc again if it rubs due to a slight change in offset of the disc (you should get lucky as there is a tolerance for this).

that's it. really easy to do. undo the 6 disc bolts, be warned, they will be loctited and can take a bit to undo, don't be tempted to give them a squirt of WD40. The taught practice is to undo them opposite so if it was a clock face you'd undo 12 and 6 then 2 and 7 then 5 and 11. clean the mating face of the disc and hub (brake cleaner) then reattached, using the same pattern to tighten the bolts. 
correct torque on a 6 bolt is 6nm although shimano say 2-4nm.


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## slavedata (20 Aug 2021)

Thanks for the input, very helpful. 

Now I just need the kit to arrive. Ordered in March it was due early August. I tracked the ship it was on across the world on a marine app. Then Swytch reported a problem with some of the hubs so they weren't shipping until replacement wheels arrived from China. So I have tracked another ship from China that finally docked at Felixstowe on the 18th So fingers crossed it will ship next week assuming they can find drivers to move the container from Felixstowe!


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## johnny (20 Aug 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> I got my fancy road bike before disks were readily available. It has carbon rims and consequently no brakes when it rains. I would love to switch to disks but no way I can justify changing my bike. I’ve nor cycled for a week now as my knee is giving me grief. I’ve had surgery on both knees in the last 10 years.


sounds like a perfect reason for getting a 250W electric conversion kit  I've been a dedicated roadie for over 50 years but at 70 my joints really give me grief when I ride . Consequently I have stopped riding and have lost one of the most important sources of pleasure and mental and physical health. I am definitely going to get one of those cheap £150 front wheel kits to try and maybe even straight bars ....who cares if I look like a weekend shopping cyclist if it gets me out on my beloved bikes again. 
Go for it Paul  you'll not regret it


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## slavedata (20 Aug 2021)

I'll let you know how the Swytch kit performs once I get it. Ordering one this time of year seems a better plan than March where you wistfully look at the weather wondering when the bike will ever appear. I went out this summer on my manual alongside a mate on his electrical and held my own so there is still some life left in the old dog at 68. However I'm sure the electric will take me further and I will not be put off so much by hilly routes.


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## TRITON (20 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Why don't lightweight road bikes have discs? Is it just weight?
> PS answer here 8 reasons not to get disc brakes — find out the hassles before you switch


Read that, disagree with much of it, and their examples are taking top quality rim brakes of the type never found outside the professional race team and comparing it to the lowest of the low disc brake.
And thats just reason 1.
2. Disc brake rub can be an issue.
This is obviously a problem with caliper brakes too, as we have known for a very long time, with dozens of different remedies offered up as solution.
The truth is rim brakes need rims to be true or the same problem applies, and I have hung about bike shops and in particular a certain wheelbuilders long enough to know his main customers are roadies, which says big skinny wheels are prone to going out of true.
I've run discs since 1996, and rarely had a rub issue that wasnt easily resolved by centering the caliper and making sure it was in good working order.
3. Disc brakes are less aerodynamic.
If this was an issue, the tour de france riders wouldnt be using them, and there they are to a man. So clearly discs offer riders more than is being understated by road cc, whom i might add have been haters of everything non road since they began, in fact you should see the thousands of threads on fixies and how brakes need not apply to them.
4. Choosing discs is a minefield.
Again, no it isnt. Theres a choice of 2 compounds sintered or resin. When however it comes to rim brakes theres a whole slew of different compounds and all made by different manufacturers, including dual compounds.
For disc resin pads tend to not make a sound, unless water is present,but once the water is scrubbed off, simply by applying the brake the noise stops.
Sintered brakes, which have metal particles in them to help dissipate heat more rapidly do squeal, but the benefits of the more efficient braking is offset by this, and being able to brake even in the worst downpour is more important than whether they are noisy or not, and rim brakes also squeal in the wet and have their performance seriously restricted.
5. You need to bed in new brakes.
This is as true for rim brakes as disc brakes. So seems pointless trying to include it in the Road CC list
6. Maintenance involves a new set of skills.
" Depending on your cycling background, disc brake maintenance might be entirely new to you. "
Which it would for any task involving cycle maintenance Headset, rim brakes, cranks, chainrings etc etc. Cant see how learning is considered a downside.
7. Disc brakes squeal
As covered above with pad compound but yes, yes they do, but they still work, and work well. Squealing rim brakes are also a problem, but not enough to be included in a reason not to have them. 
Ever tried setting up rim pads. you have full XYZ axis to get right. A bloody nightmare, and ive been doing it for decades. Always do the old tricks, place a piece of paper at the front of the pad. Use a third hand tool to squeeze the pad to the rim...etc..etc.
8 Rotors wear out.
But with rim brakes the entire rim wears out, so instead of 30 quid replacement rotor, you need a new rim, plus a rebuild, and if we go with the type of high end road bikes the above reasons list of implying, you could be over a hundred pounds EASY.
The other down side is a worn rim and 130psi pressure tyre. Nothing to tell you this rim is about to explode. Imagine that going bang as you have a bus behind you and the front end gives up.
Worn rotors. To be truthful here on my shopper bike, ive yet to wear out a rotor after 4 years of use, and in fact I've probably replaced the pads only once, and those werent totally used up.

All in al thats a rubbish and very misleading list from a forum that hates all bikes that arent road bikes.
While this is a woodworking and such forum, there are other bike forums im on and the biggest bike forums on the web at that. Road CC is a hate site and well known for its opinionated nonsense. 
I would not want anyone to be put off either buying a bike with discs, or fitting them aftermarket because of the nonsense they spout. Discs are the safest system, and less affected by British weather than any other braking system yet made.



> that would be me then.  I'm the bike mechanic, qualified as such and everything (because qualifications are really useful when a person turns up with a BSO and complains it isn't working).


Me too, though I dont have the actual cytec qualifications, just the standard stuff you get to accredit you when working for a bike charity, but I've been building my own bikes and repairing all aspects of others for the last 27 years. In that time ive only had the one new from a shop bike(Cannondale m200) and one new frame(1999 Orange Clockwork/or C16r to be exact) and the rest I've built and maintained myself.
My bike list- all built up with period parts to great expense. I've always taken pride in doing such things properly.
1991 Muddy Fox Adventurer,1991 Claud Butler Ventoux 400 ,1992 Raleigh Diablo ,1992 Rudy Project, 1995 Cannondale M200 ,1997 Santa Cruz Tazmon ,1997 Specialized Stumpjumper ,1997 Specialized Rockhopper ,1997 Marin Quake 9.0,1998 Marin Pallisade trail ,1998 Raleigh Torus,1999 Orange Clockwork ,2003 Cove Stiffee FR ,2005 Kona Hahanna ,2007 On-One Inbred ,2007 Kona Kikapu deluxe ,2010 Orange Pure7 ,200? Omega DNA 6al/4v Ti Interbike prototype, 2021 Scott Genius e-ride 920
Also I was probably the foremost Hope collector in the UK and still hold a number of extremely rare Hope kit, inc prototypes, outside of Hope's own museum.

I have 2 main interests in life -
1 - Being a qualified furniture maker/designer
2 - Bicycles


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## whatknot (20 Aug 2021)

Funny how a simple post evolves into war & peace ;-)


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## TRITON (20 Aug 2021)

whatknot said:


> Funny how a simple post evolves into war & peace ;-)



Godwin's law has yet to rear its head


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## aebersold (20 Aug 2021)

Triton, agree with most of what you say and looking at your list of steeds, I would say you are mostly an off-roader And for off road riding, disc brakes are a must. I have a couple of mtb’s both fitted with quality disc set ups and they both squeal like a frightened pig and when they’re squealing they ain’t stopping effectively, perhaps maybe because I have the sintered pads. On a road bike, in my opinion, they’re just not necessary: They generally make the bike heavier, forks have to be beefier to take the calliper and usually have a through axel instead of quick releases. Wheels, although the rims are lighter the braking power has to be transferred through heavier spoking and the lever assemblies tend to be bulkier to take the master cylinders. The most successful professional cycling team ineos use rim brakes for faster wheel changes and easier maintenance. Lastly, to me they look naff, but hey beauty is....... Hate to be cynical, but I think it’s the bike manufacturers moving the market forward, bit like convincing everyone that 29in wheels were the ultimate, then moving to 27.5 ! That’s it, my tuppence worth. What really matters is that you’re out there getting some miles in and mixing it with some friends, family etc.


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## paulrbarnard (20 Aug 2021)

johnny said:


> sounds like a perfect reason for getting a 250W electric conversion kit  I've been a dedicated roadie for over 50 years but at 70 my joints really give me grief when I ride . Consequently I have stopped riding and have lost one of the most important sources of pleasure and mental and physical health. I am definitely going to get one of those cheap £150 front wheel kits to try and maybe even straight bars ....who cares if I look like a weekend shopping cyclist if it gets me out on my beloved bikes again.
> Go for it Paul  you'll not regret it


Do you think the electric hub will fit ZIP 303s? At 61 I’m hoping for a few more years unassisted. The electric specialised SWORKS Creo looks interesting though


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## ian33a (20 Aug 2021)

I’ve had bikes with rim, mechanical disc and hydraulic disc in a variety of on and off road guises.

I wouldn’t contemplate off road with anything but very beefy hydraulic dics - perhaps because I ride rough single track and value my life and limbs.

I have a road bike with mechanical discs and it is adequate but not that much better than rim brakes.

I also have a road bike with hydraulic disc brakes and, as this is my regular ride (about 200k a week), I would not contemplate any other form of braking. I make this statement in the context of where I ride , it being crappy country roads around Surrey and Hampshire. I can understand why some road riders think that rim brakes are fine and on smooth quality tarmac, I could agree.

I also run tubeless on all of my bikes as well as electronic gear shift on my best road bike. I would not contemplate going back to tubes or cable gears were I to buy another bike in the future …. Another can of worms opened perhaps


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## TRITON (20 Aug 2021)

slavedata said:


> I'll let you know how the Swytch kit performs once I get it. Ordering one this time of year seems a better plan than March where you wistfully look at the weather wondering when the bike will ever appear. I went out this summer on my manual alongside a mate on his electrical and held my own so there is still some life left in the old dog at 68. However I'm sure the electric will take me further and I will not be put off so much by hilly routes.


I think you'll have a great time, thee electric helps best taking the slog that are hills. Battery is quite small so you'll probably need to charge it often and maybe only have a 20 mile range, tops.


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## johnny (21 Aug 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Do you think the electric hub will fit ZIP 303s? At 61 I’m hoping for a few more years unassisted. The electric specialised SWORKS Creo looks interesting though


no thats never going to be an option with those wheels I'm afraid. Too much torque not enough spokes . There is the option of a crank motor but they are an expensive setup. if it were me I might consider something like a Cyclocity 250w front wheel setup then buy a seperate rear wheel and 2x matching road rims and rebuild both wheels to match . That way you don't invest too much money and you can try ebiking on the cheap to see if you get on with it ......but then I'm a cheapskate pensioner


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## Fergie 307 (21 Aug 2021)

I well remember the revelation that was the Shimano indexed shifter. Again at the time people scoffed at this gadget that removed the "skill" from shifting. What absolute tosh, it was a brilliant idea. I still have a 1978 Holdsworth pro with Campag SR, and a skunk works Carlton from 76. Riding either just reminds you how much of a pain it was back then to make clean changes with downtube mounted levers and no indexing. If I was in the market for a new road bike now it would be electric shift and discs all day long. It's called progress. Unfortunately there will always be "traditionalists" who view anything new as necessarily bad, and will continue to knock it, even long after their arguments have become absurd.


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## paulrbarnard (21 Aug 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I well remember the revelation that was the Shimano indexed shifter. Again at the time people scoffed at this gadget that removed the "skill" from shifting. What absolute tosh, it was a brilliant idea. I still have a 1978 Holdsworth pro with Campag SR, and a skunk works Carlton from 76. Riding either just reminds you how much of a pain it was back then to make clean changes with downtube mounted levers and no indexing. If I was in the market for a new road bike now it would be electric shift and discs all day long. It's called progress. Unfortunately there will always be "traditionalists" who view anything new as necessarily bad, and will continue to knock it, even long after their arguments have become absurd.


Those tube levers were a pain especially if you weren’t paying attention and hit an include without being ready for it. I lusted for bar end levers for years. Also keep in mind there were only 5 options to select between at the back. I can’t imagine accurately selecting between 11 and not finishing up with grinding noises.
Yep electric shifting is great. I have the very first generation of ultegra DI2 on my Roubaix. It makes the mechanical 105 with Durace levers on my turbo bike feel like a box of nails. I would switch to disks in a heartbeat if it wasn’t for the cost of swapping out my dream bike.


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## MamTor (21 Aug 2021)

Tris said:


> As I know there are many keen cyclists here I hope someone can provide some ideas.
> 
> Some time ago my wife bought a 1980s Raleigh ladies town bike. I'm giving it a bit of an overhaul but have hit a problem with what we laughingly call the brakes. The original callipers are flimsy pressed steel and flex massively when applied. The reach on the arms is about 95mm and try as I might I cannot find anything with that sort of reach in an alloy fork.
> 
> ...


I'm possibly repeating a few things here but there's been a lot of noise and daft suggestions so difficult for you to filter it all out.
Firstly you'll never get good braking with chromed steel rims, especially in the wet. And cheap long-reach brake calipers are rarely of a good design, so you're not going to achieve much, and it's not worth throwing money at this. Better brake blocks could help but only marginally. 
Unless you have sentimental feelings for the bike, I advise you to sell it and get something with decent brakes. Any hybrid bike will have alloy rims that brake better, and most will have cantilever or V-brakes. You'll easily pick something up for around £50 on ebay if you know how to find a bargain. 
As for the suggestions about retrofitting disk brakes, complete nonsense. The only good suggestion so far was to get cantilever brake bosses brazed onto the frame and fit V-brakes as they don't require any cable stops. You might be able to use your existing brake levers and even cables, but the cost of getting the bosses brazed on plus two pairs of V-brakes will be over £50 and it'll look messy with the resulting paint damage. So it's really best to replace the bike if decent braking is a concern.
You mentioned something about mudguards....that's irrelevant, you'll not be able to fit shorter reach calipers as it's dependant on the bolt to rim distance, which cannot be changed. The chromed steel rims really are your enemy here. And they're horribly heavy and slow as well.
Good luck.


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## Jacob (21 Aug 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Those tube levers were a pain especially if you weren’t paying attention and hit an include without being ready for it.


Not as bad as SRAM Apex! I swapped the front changer to down tube. When the other lever broke I swapped both to bar end shifters. Also meant I could have triple chain rings. They work indexed (3x9) but quite nicely without indexing


> l I listed for bar end levers for years. Also keep in mind there were only 5 options to select between at the back. I can’t imagine accurately selecting between 11 and not finishing up with grinding noises.


No prob with 9. Probably not with 11 as long as you can hear them. Bar ends allow fine adjustment without losing a good grip on the bars. Compared to the old days of 10 or 15 speed, modern chains and sprockets are highly refined and work very smoothly even without indexing


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## TRITON (21 Aug 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Again at the time people scoffed at this gadget that removed the "skill" from shifting. What absolute tosh,


The funniest threads on the bike forums was when discs started to become more mainstream and we had people claiming that if canti's were "Set up correctly" they were as good as discs, or at the very least as powerful as V brakes.
All of that is laid to waste when you watch the early mtb racing, where there were only canti brakes, and "Set up properly", but things like turns it was obvious how poo they were as most of the riders overshot the turns ending up in the bushes  With canti's you took note of the turn 50m ahead and applied the brakes in the hope it would scrub off a bit of speed in that 50m to be able to make the turn.

But youre 100% correct, new kit always has its benefits being slated by traditionalists, who mostly have never used them themselves. 
This is one of the reasons I take 'experts' with a pinch of salt. 
Take Ebikes. Youtube is full of so called experts on all things ebike and claiming this is what you must do and this that or t'other is wrong.
Ebikes as we know them, as in the mainstream have been about since 2018. Sure powered hub ebikes have beeen about far longer, but of the type i ride its an entirely new concept.


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## Jacob (21 Aug 2021)

Dual pivot callipers are good if the geometry is right.
Essential tip with rim brakes is to take the shoes out at intervals and wash them in hot soapy water to get rid of embedded grit. They work better and rim wear is reduced.
It became routine for us as a lot of our local rides involve gritty trails - High Peak, Tissington, Monsal etc


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## Jake (21 Aug 2021)

I only bicycle occasionally now, but I used to ride everywhere in my 20s-30s. For most of it, on a Kona with the OE cantis replaced with Magura rim brakes. Then got a Chas Roberts built up, they persuaded me to fit disks rather than maggies. I still have it, it seems fine now, but I was most unimpressed when I picked it up with the Kona still fresh in mind - the geometry was slacker but also the braking was notably worse. Times have moved on a lot and I'm sure disk brakes are much better now than then (and tbh the Hope 4 pots stop a considerably heavier me just fine now - but by different standards of expectation).


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## Tris (21 Aug 2021)

MamTor said:


> I'm possibly repeating a few things here but there's been a lot of noise and daft suggestions so difficult for you to filter it all out.
> Firstly you'll never get good braking with chromed steel rims, especially in the wet. And cheap long-reach brake calipers are rarely of a good design, so you're not going to achieve much, and it's not worth throwing money at this. Better brake blocks could help but only marginally.
> Unless you have sentimental feelings for the bike, I advise you to sell it and get something with decent brakes. Any hybrid bike will have alloy rims that brake better, and most will have cantilever or V-brakes. You'll easily pick something up for around £50 on ebay if you know how to find a bargain.
> As for the suggestions about retrofitting disk brakes, complete nonsense. The only good suggestion so far was to get cantilever brake bosses brazed onto the frame and fit V-brakes as they don't require any cable stops. You might be able to use your existing brake levers and even cables, but the cost of getting the bosses brazed on plus two pairs of V-brakes will be over £50 and it'll look messy with the resulting paint damage. So it's really best to replace the bike if decent braking is a concern.
> ...




Thank you for the practical suggestions, in this instance the bike is my wife's. It is only ever likely to be used in dry weather to potter a few miles on local lanes. The aim was to make it safe for that which I have started to do. As it's a 1980s three speed it's more about the aesthetic than performance 
Thanks again
Tris


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## Fergie 307 (22 Aug 2021)

Tris
bottom line is the bike was sold as a ladies, bimble about town at maybe 12mph bike. If that's what you intend to use it for them chrome rims and so on not wiithstanding, the brakes should be fine. Just make sure you get the correct blocks to suit the rims. We sold hundreds of bikes with these brakes back in the day, I don't recall the town being littered with the bodies of people who had crashed into stuff because the brakes didn't work, or customers queuing up to complain about them. I'm afraid as is often the case on here a simple question morphs into people talking all sorts, much of which has nothing to do with the original question.


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## johnny (9 Sep 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I still have a 1978 Holdsworth pro with Campag SR, and a skunk works Carlton from 76.



two of my favourite frames from back then . I had a couple of Carlton frames that were made prior to the Raleigh take over, and a black Holdsworth frame used in the very last Milk Race along with a jersey. I was bike obsessed back then


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