# Renovate natural sharpening stones?



## DigitalM (6 Sep 2017)

I saw a few nice old sharpening stones today at a car boot. I didn't buy them as they looked a little worn, not much, but you could see it by eye. One looked something like slate, another, after some googling, may have been a "dalmore blue". 

Anyway, as I car boot a lot, I was wondering if there's an inexpensive way to flatten and renovate these? I don't mind putting a few hours of hard work in, if it can be achieved in that sort of time frame.

I tried googling this and it returned many videos about flattening water stones, but they look way softer so those techniques may not apply. Also, the guy rubbing his Arkensas on the concrete in the back yard - well, I suppose that's fine but suspect someone may have come up with a smarter way.

I was wondering, silicone carbide paper on a marble slab?

I'm suspecting the answer will be "Yeah, you can do it like that, but it will take 6 weeks and by the end you'll have arms like Popeye!".

Any tips appreciated.


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2017)

You don't need to flatten them just sharpen in the old fashioned way like the previous owner. It's the smart way - quicker and easier.
All this stone flattening is just a time wasting crack-pot modern amateur woodwork fashion. Nobody ever did it in the past (except for special purposes) which is why nearly all old stones are hollow. They knew what they were doing.
May need freshening up. I use 3m diapad for this as it's bendy and will follow the curve of the stone, plus oil, or white spirit if very clogged up. Just a quick rub over. A stainless steel pan scrubber is good too.
Should take just a few minutes to get them into use.


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## bugbear (6 Sep 2017)

The natural novaculite stones (Arkansas, washita, Charnley Forest) are very hard to flatten.

Synthetic Norton India Stones are very hard to flatten.

Most other UK stones can be flattened fairly easily using water and a sheet abrasive (around 60-80 grit) on a flat surface.

BugBear


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## ED65 (6 Sep 2017)

Re. flattening, there's written reference to using the right kind of sand to flatten stones from before Carborundum was available, which makes it from before even Jacob was born. So do take his "All this stone flattening is just a time wasting crack-pot modern amateur woodwork fashion" thing with the appropriate pinch of salt 8) 

Anyway regardless of what was or wasn't done historically if you want a stone flat make it flat, it's your stone and nobody else's opinion has to matter.



DigitalM":edkohqeg said:


> Anyway, as I car boot a lot, I was wondering if there's an inexpensive way to flatten and renovate these? I don't mind putting a few hours of hard work in, if it can be achieved in that sort of time frame.


It should be possible to do it in under a few hours with most stones. How long it takes obviously depends on how hard the particular stone is, and some are hard as hell, plus just how dished the surface is needless to say. I've only done it a few times but the longest it has taken me is very approximately an hour and a half, all in. 

Yes you can flatten many stones on a concrete block, or even on a suitable bit of pavement in front of your house. Doing it on concrete is much slower than on abrasive paper or loose carborundum powder but it is doable, even for some of the tougher stones. You'll wish you had arms like Popeye when you're done if the stone is any of the harder varieties, I guarantee it!

If a stone doesn't need it and you just want to clean it well first call can be literally to scrub in hot, soapy water. Long soaks in solvents such as gasoline or kerosene are also widely used and can be amazingly effective at returning a grotty old thing to its (often surprisingly pale) original colour.


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## DigitalM (6 Sep 2017)

Well, without wanting to start one of *those* debates, one of the reasons for wanting to lap the stones, was (no laughing at the back) some of them are quite beautiful, and I suspect lapping them might really bring that out. I like tools, and I like patina, but I also really enjoy rescuing knackered old stuff!


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## D_W (6 Sep 2017)

If they are swayed significantly, the hard drum on an inexpensive belt sander (stationary type) can easily remove stone at the contact point. This is an outside-only exercise and with respiratory protection. Once you've spot removed a stone to mostly flat, then you can take it to a hand lap.

Sedimentary stones (slates, etc) can be done on almost anything (wet/dry or just plain aluminum oxide sandpaper). I still find coarse diamonds to be fastest for final work on novaculite stones, but I haven't tried some of the messier methods. 

As for the belt sander, an inexpensive 80 grit al-ox belt (cheap red type) is perfectly fine. It's far harder than the abrasive in natural stones. 

(laying the stones flat on the platen of a belt sander gets you nowhere fast if you have to remove a lot of material, and it strains the belt sander).


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2017)

ED65":36awi51i said:


> Re. flattening, there's written reference to using the right kind of sand to flatten stones from before Carborundum was available, which makes it from before even Jacob was born. So do take his "All this stone flattening is just a time wasting crack-pot modern amateur woodwork fashion" thing with the appropriate pinch of salt 8) ....


You can find all sorts of bad advice even in old books!
But we know it wasn't widely done (nearly all old stones you find will be hollow) and we know it isn't necessary; anybody sharpening freehand will not need to flatten stones - it's only for jig users.

I'd just clean them up with diapad or pan scrubber. 10 minutes max and they will be usable. No need to be a fashion victim - be smart and stay ahead of the game!


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Sep 2017)

Many trades use edge tools, and need to keep them sharp. Not all trades have edge tools with a flat jigging surface, such as a wood chisel has, so not every trade needs to 'back off' on a flat surface. For example, butchers' knives have double bevels, neither of which needs to be flat. Consequently, the sharpening stones used by butchers don't need to stay flat. For example, here's Scott Rea showing how to stone and steel butcher's knives - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okv6N7KfR6A

Since woodworkers use edge tools with flat jigging faces, sharpening stones maintain their tools in best condition when they are flat, and all the old reference books suggest this as best practice. Other practices are possible, just not 'best'. (Not every woodworker was a Chippendale; in any walk of life one can find those who, given the tools, will finish the job; and those who, given a job, will finish the tools.)


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## --Tom-- (6 Sep 2017)

Disk sander with a coarse disk will get you nearly there before you lose the will


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## Racers (6 Sep 2017)

7 to 1 at the moment, I would flatten as well so 8 to 1.

Pete


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## AndyT (6 Sep 2017)

I wouldn't bother flattening.
White spirit and an old toothbrush will lift off any old dried oil.


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## G S Haydon (6 Sep 2017)

Difficult to advise. Clean it and give it a go. If you can raise a burr and remove one then it's good. If it's not able to do that I would and have done what DW mentions. Did it with a Charnley and took no time. Flattening anything is a bore and best avoided when possible.


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2017)

Cheshirechappie":3fnkbwr9 said:


> .....
> Since woodworkers use edge tools with flat jigging faces, sharpening stones maintain their tools in best condition when they are flat, and all the old reference books suggest this as best practice. ....


You get occasional references to cleaning up stones on slabs with 'sharp sand' but it's virtually a 'meme' - endlessly repeated and ignored.
"Flat jigging face/surface" is not woodwork terminology and you won't find it in any of the older books. Jigs didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later, with the burgeoning amateur woodwork supply industry.
I've sharpened all my tools on un flat stones for 50 years or more. though I did flatten one once to see what it was about. Waste of time.
Old stones are almost always worn hollow with use. Old chisels are always slightly convex along the face with years of sharpening. Old plane blades are flattish on the face only for the first few mm in order to locate cap iron. 
They did know what they were doing, believe it or not. 
Carving chisels are sharpened more than most blades and they have rounded bevels, sometimes on both sides. etc etc etc
"Best practice" is another pseudo technical term which people bandy about aimlessly!


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2017)

AndyT":3kdxisf4 said:


> I wouldn't bother flattening.
> White spirit and an old toothbrush will lift off any old dried oil.


Yes, though sometimes I go the extra half inch by freshening up with a diapad or pan scrubber - surfaces can get clogged up.


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## essexalan (6 Sep 2017)

Flatten them. Scrape as much of the crud off then hit them with 80 mesh SiC grit on a flat granite offcut, drop of washing up liquid and a splash of water. Make sure you use all the surface of the granite to keep it nearly flat. Expect a horrible noise until the SiC breaks into smaller particles when you add more SiC. Arks and Washita take the longest depending how much they have been abused, slates take minutes. Some naturals you can flatten quite quickly on abrasive belt as DW mentioned but not Ark/Washitas. I would not let my diamond plates anywhere near a natural stone except to bevel the edges and even then I usually use SiC paper which you can use to dress the surface of the stone after flattening. 
My carving chisels start off with flat bevels but the constant stropping rounds them off so back to the stones, read a Chris Pye book who does know about carving.


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## bugbear (6 Sep 2017)

Jacob":1hnaxpjw said:


> Jigs didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later, with the burgeoning amateur woodwork supply industry.


Flat out plain and simple wrong. Evidence available.

BugBear


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## Seiken (6 Sep 2017)

I've flattened oilstones on a paving slab, I've still got my school woodwork class notebook from 1969 and there it is as copied from the blackboard in the classroom.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2017)

Jacob":2fpe2d0q said:


> ED65":2fpe2d0q said:
> 
> 
> > Re. flattening, there's written reference to using the right kind of sand to flatten stones from before Carborundum was available, which makes it from before even Jacob was born. So do take his "All this stone flattening is just a time wasting crack-pot modern amateur woodwork fashion" thing with the appropriate pinch of salt 8) ....
> ...



10 minutes is about how long it takes me to take a quarter inch of sway out of a novaculite stone and lap it.

It's not always necessary to lap a stone, but it doesn't hurt anything, either. Without a hard contact point on a belt sander, this is otherwise extremely slow work.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2017)

I guess I should correct that to say that the contact point is a line. There will be a line of fire where the contact occurs on a novaculite grind, too. And it'll small like fire.


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2017)

bugbear":b0fpt0ki said:


> Jacob":b0fpt0ki said:
> 
> 
> > Jigs didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later, with the burgeoning amateur woodwork supply industry.
> ...


What evidence? In fact they were around but hardly anybody used them. We learned trad sharpening at school and again later when I did a course. Gadgets were for the amateurs and beginners. You'd be laughed out of the training workshop if you got out a little jig!


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## D_W (6 Sep 2017)

Jacob":290emivh said:


> bugbear":290emivh said:
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> > Jacob":290emivh said:
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They were sold to tradesmen here. I doubt there was much hand tool use in the United States by the time jobs were available.


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## Racers (7 Sep 2017)

Jacob":sgli2lkr said:


> bugbear":sgli2lkr said:
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> 
> > Jacob":sgli2lkr said:
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What a sad state of affairs that anybody should be ridiculed for being different, its just bullying and its time it stopped.

Pete


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## adrspach (7 Sep 2017)

I will try to answer your original questions.
Can you flatten the slate and Dalmore Blue easily and on the budget? Yes
How easily? Depends how deep is the dishing. I have done fair bit of both of those stones and use sanding belt glued on slab grit about 60. To take out This dishing takes me about 10-15 minutes and then lap it up on w/d paper to decent level under water another 10 minutes each.
As a cost wise cheapest is to do it on a concrete paving slab in your back yard. Just be aware that while you doing this it will also polish that slab and make it different from those others which the one to be obeyed does not need to like.
Cost of the other methods such as sand paper or diamond plates depends on how much you pay for them. You can get a piece of offcut worktop in the skip of you local kitchen maker for free. Your elbow grease you need to price yourself. Good lock with it and I hope you can get nice pattern on that DB stone.


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## bugbear (7 Sep 2017)

Jacob":21fqlxqo said:


> bugbear":21fqlxqo said:
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> > Jacob":21fqlxqo said:
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Although IIRC as soon as you got out of the training workshop and worked professionally, you used a jig...

BugBear


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

bugbear":1cm9ssgl said:


> Jacob":1cm9ssgl said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":1cm9ssgl said:
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Tried to. Simple naivety. A lot of people were lead down this route and sharpening was made difficult and expensive. I believed the BS and did both but half heartedly. 
Eventually I got back to basics and sharpening became quick and easy once again! Never used a jig since!
NB it's the jig which brings about the need for flat stones and all the extra work entailed. Jigs don't work on uneven stones. Hence the rise in the modern flattening obsession.


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

adrspach":1tpxwzre said:


> I will try to answer your original questions.
> Can you flatten the slate and Dalmore Blue easily and on the budget? Yes....


Do you need to flatten the slate and Dalmore Blue? No.


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## CStanford (7 Sep 2017)

I highly recommend using both sides of a stone, most of which you will find have a side with a swale and another that's flat (used stones, that is). Both are handy to have. Don't flatten the side with the swale. Turn it over to see what the other side looks like. :shock: 

You can thank me later. :wink:

If you're using less than both broad sides and the two long edges you are not getting your money's worth.


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## Sheffield Tony (7 Sep 2017)

I have a bit of a question; I've heard the recommendation to flatten oilstones on a concrete paving slab / coping stone / ... before. I have even tried it. Aside from a small number of nasty scratches, it did not do any sort of useful flattening. Those who recommend it - do you mean to interpose some sort of abrasive grit, and if so, what ? Pardon me if I am being a bit thick.

I have flattened (to remove nasty gouges) an old slate stone, which is dead easy as slate is soft enough to sand with SiC paper. An India oilstone - not much made any impression. One of those carborundum sticks sold by Axminster for grinding wheel dressing just about made an impression with perseverance. I concluded that either using it as is, or buying a new one made more sense.


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## Bod (7 Sep 2017)

Jacob":1jlv4v2w said:


> bugbear":1jlv4v2w said:
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> > Jacob":1jlv4v2w said:
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Planecraft 1959 page 58.
Record Edge Tool Honer No. 161.

Bod


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## AndyT (7 Sep 2017)

Do we really need to go over this yet again? ](*,) 

Jacob wrote that jigs "didn't come in *big time* until the 1980s and later" so a single reference, of whatever date, doesn't decide the issue. Unless we can agree on a statistically robust definition of "big time" (not very likely) and also come up with comparative year by year figures for the production and usage of jigs through the period in question (not very likely either) what he wrote is an assertion which is not going to be proved or disproved, however many pages we add to this thread, and however far we wander from the OP's question! 

Shall we just let the question of jigs alone? Or start a new thread?


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

Bod":2i8l6gxq said:


> Jacob":2i8l6gxq said:
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> > bugbear":2i8l6gxq said:
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They were around much earlier than that but they were not widely used. Just a gadget for the amateurs. Victorians were big on gadgets. Old antique honing jigs are extremely rare - they weren't sold in huge quantities, in fact hardly at all. Compare old planes, old saws, marking gauges, chisels - all extremely common and very cheap.

Carry on using your gadgets by all means, don't let me put you off! But we should resist the attempts to justify this by amateurs and hack journalists re-writing the history of the craft


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## swagman (7 Sep 2017)

Sheffield Tony":jhlyesqj said:


> I have a bit of a question; I've heard the recommendation to flatten oilstones on a concrete paving slab / coping stone / ... before. I have even tried it. Aside from a small number of nasty scratches, it did not do any sort of useful flattening. Those who recommend it - do you mean to interpose some sort of abrasive grit, and if so, what ? Pardon me if I am being a bit thick.
> 
> I have flattened (to remove nasty gouges) an old slate stone, which is dead easy as slate is soft enough to sand with SiC paper. An India oilstone - not much made any impression. One of those carborundum sticks sold by Axminster for grinding wheel dressing just about made an impression with perseverance. I concluded that either using it as is, or buying a new one made more sense.



Tony; your just not trying hard enough. Norton Carborundum and India Oilstones, all flattened using loose sic powder on float glass.


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## CStanford (7 Sep 2017)

If a stone has one flat side that's all you need. Don't ruin it by flattening the side with the swale for one day you just might figure out how to use that side. The valley and section of curves created by the hills and valley can all be used. You can use it by sharpening sideways, forward, diagonally, all sorts of ways depending on what you're sharpening. Often, the shape of the cutting tool is more important than the absolute fine-ness of the edge.

If the stone's original owner had wanted to keep both sides flat, he would have done so. If it has a swale, it was by definition used by a professional craftsman, or a series of professional craftsmen. You cannot produce this by using it every other weekend.

Think about what you're looking at before you go and ruin it.


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## lurker (7 Sep 2017)

Racers":1z5lq84u said:


> 7 to 1 at the moment, I would flatten as well so 8 to 1.
> 
> Pete



I see the point Jacob makes, it most likely is a waste of time.
however I like mine flat so I'll sit on the fence

I have a paving slab (just outside my workshop door) that I have done this on.
I clean them with paraffin and a scrubbing brush


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## MikeG. (7 Sep 2017)

CStanford":1a4pom7p said:


> .........If it has a swale, it was by definition used by a professional craftsman, or a series of professional craftsmen. You cannot produce this by using it every other weekend.......



Erm.......... then how come the oilstone I bought new 30 years ago has a swale? It was flat when I started.


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## whiskywill (7 Sep 2017)

AndyT":3q1d0hn8 said:


> Shall we just let the question of jigs alone? Or start a new thread?



I really like Jigs, and Reels, and Polkas, and Mazurkas but mostly I like Rants. :wink:


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## CStanford (7 Sep 2017)

MikeG.":19ghp6px said:


> CStanford":19ghp6px said:
> 
> 
> > .........If it has a swale, it was by definition used by a professional craftsman, or a series of professional craftsmen. You cannot produce this by using it every other weekend.......
> ...



I guess because you've used it for 30 years. It's cause for rejoicing. =D> You have one side with all sorts of options and then a flat side. Nothing not to love. If you ever want to get rid of it, or view it as somehow 'defective,' please give me a shout. I had one that was getting just about right and it split almost dead in half in a drop to a concrete floor.


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## ED65 (7 Sep 2017)

Jacob":1xaw8xjc said:


> You can find all sorts of bad advice even in old books!


Aaand stepping seamlessly from "this wasn't done historically" to "it's bad advice". 



Jacob":1xaw8xjc said:


> (nearly all old stones you find will be hollow)


And nearly all old planes don't have their cap irons fettled properly. _Doesn't mean either indicates good practice._ 



Jacob":1xaw8xjc said:


> But we know it wasn't widely done ... and we know it isn't necessary; anybody sharpening freehand will not need to flatten stones - it's only for jig users.


Who's this 'we' you're referring to paleface?

I don't own a sharpening jig of this type. I've _never _owned one. And I most definitely have need of flat stones. Horses for courses Jacob (as usual ad infinitum).

I do wonder how someone would go about doing this with stones that had any sort of significant dishing:







But maybe that's just me ;-)


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## ED65 (7 Sep 2017)

Sheffield Tony":18ex0yho said:


> I have a bit of a question; I've heard the recommendation to flatten oilstones on a concrete paving slab / coping stone / ... before. I have even tried it. Aside from a small number of nasty scratches, it did not do any sort of useful flattening. Those who recommend it - do you mean to interpose some sort of abrasive grit, and if so, what ? Pardon me if I am being a bit thick.








The process most definitely goes more slowly the tougher the stone is!


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## ED65 (7 Sep 2017)

CStanford":2457zilb said:


> I had one that was getting just about right and it split almost dead in half in a drop to a concrete floor.


Also not a cause for ceremonial burial in the trashcan. Broken stones can be stuck back together again and apparently you can't tell after it's been done. By which I mean you can't feel it in use, you can see the crack (sometimes).


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## CStanford (7 Sep 2017)

The halves await cleaving and then grinding into slips which await me become a proficient enough carver to warrant the exercise. I already own a few slips.

Unfortunately, the stone chipped on its face as well as fracturing through its thickness. It cannot be glued back together and used as a whole stone. I suspect that they rarely suffer a clean crack through the middle without the faces being affected. That would seem to me to be a pretty miraculous turn of events. I don't intend to make a habit out of dropping them, and haven't had this happen before.


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## ED65 (8 Sep 2017)

CStanford":8tcmbwvj said:


> The halves await cleaving and then grinding into slips which await me become a proficient enough carver to warrant the exercise. I already own a few slips.


Best of luck with the shaping when you come to do it. I've only done something similar once, rounding the edge of a vitreous ceramic tile to make a gouge hone, and the process was long-winded enough that I know I really don't want to have to do it with a tough natural stone :shock: 



CStanford":8tcmbwvj said:


> Unfortunately, the stone chipped on its face as well as fracturing through its thickness. It cannot be glued back together and used as a whole stone. I suspect that they rarely suffer a clean crack through the middle without the faces being affected. That would seem to me to be a pretty miraculous turn of events.


From what I've seen some spalling from the surface is fairly common, but it's not always major. If the losses from the face are small enough they can be dealt with fairly easily, and the usual advice going way back was to lap/dress the stone surface after bonding anyway... which neatly brings us back full circle since it implies that the stone's face should have been flat to begin with 

I've only dropped a loose stone once and the vinyl on the (concrete) floor saved it from major damage. Lost a very small chip from a corner and that's all. I also don't intend to make a habit of this as I doubt I'll be as lucky twice!


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## CStanford (8 Sep 2017)

I have another stone that can stand in. I frankly doubt I'll do anything with the broken one, but if I do it would be to attempt to shape it into something useable on gouges. I'll keep the halves around for a while and see. It's not a priority at the moment at all.

Cheers.


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## D_W (8 Sep 2017)

Charlie, do you have a stationary belt sander? If you do, easy peasy. It'll be a little work, but your idea is a good one. I've got a load of broken stones, and even giving away the parts shaped as slips would be better than throwing them out -I hate that.

I know you're not in love with getting help from me on any topic, but you want me to make a stone shaping video? It'd be short. I've been cutting japanese stones lately, shaping them and selling them as tomonagura, they're easier, but it's the same thing. I might be able to find an old arkansas stone that would make a nice slip. I see plenty of other people (not you) blowing out diamond plates on stones like that, and it's needless.


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## MikeG. (8 Sep 2017)

CStanford":2bwh8qwc said:


> MikeG.":2bwh8qwc said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":2bwh8qwc said:
> ...



No, I gave up on it 6 or 8 years ago when I discovered that a bit of sandpaper did the job better.



> You have one side with all sorts of options and then a flat side. Nothing not to love.



No, it has a coarse side and a smooth side, and they are both hollow. If I want a straight edge to a 2" chisel or a plane blade (and I do), then a stone like this is useless to me.



> If you ever want to get rid of it, or view it as somehow 'defective,' please give me a shout. I had one that was getting just about right and it split almost dead in half in a drop to a concrete floor.



I'll hang on to it, because it's useful for a quick edge on a kitchen knife.


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## CStanford (8 Sep 2017)

A synthetic stone with a coarse and a smooth side are really two different stones used for different things, hence the heavy use on both sides. They just happen to be bonded together for convenience and to save space in a tool chest.

Most used natural stones I've seen, if they have a swale, have it on only one side. If they have it on two sides, but each is shaped differently, it was likely used by a carver or turner and most likely the latter IMO, unless the wear is a series of grooves where gouges were honed.


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## CStanford (8 Sep 2017)

D_W":39htm0ym said:


> Charlie, do you have a stationary belt sander? If you do, easy peasy. It'll be a little work, but your idea is a good one. I've got a load of broken stones, and even giving away the parts shaped as slips would be better than throwing them out -I hate that.
> 
> I know you're not in love with getting help from me on any topic, but you want me to make a stone shaping video? It'd be short. I've been cutting japanese stones lately, shaping them and selling them as tomonagura, they're easier, but it's the same thing. I might be able to find an old arkansas stone that would make a nice slip. I see plenty of other people (not you) blowing out diamond plates on stones like that, and it's needless.



I don't have a stationery belt sander. I have an old Sears hand-held somewhere. I've watched every video you've ever posted and see no reason to stop now.  Happy to take a look. I've never done the sort of work we're discussing and would have everything to gain.

The problem is that I'm not sure what shape I really want these to be. I have a couple of fine India gouge cones, some natural Arkansas slips, etc. This would be the rainiest of rainy day projects for me.


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## bugbear (8 Sep 2017)

CStanford":10v7p7u2 said:


> Most used natural stones I've seen, if they have a swale, have it on only one side.


I've found a few cased stones where the upper side is hollowed.

Removing the stone from the case...

... the lower side was hollowed too. Looks like it was easier to turn it over than flatten, but this "clever trick" only works once!

Eventually you gotta' flatten.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2017)

Eventually you gotta' let someone else flatten.


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## essexalan (8 Sep 2017)

A lot of Charnleys only have one usable side, the other side is just as it was cut out of the solid rock or the stone is fitted so tightly in it's box you would have to wreck the box to get it out. Luckily they are one of the easiest natural stones to flatten and stay flat in use for a good time.


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## CStanford (8 Sep 2017)

bugbear":2la9axpq said:


> CStanford":2la9axpq said:
> 
> 
> > Most used natural stones I've seen, if they have a swale, have it on only one side.
> ...



My guess is that the stone was used by a carver or a turner especially if the hollows are different. If not, it's hard to imagine hollowing a stone on both faces doing chisels and plane irons. Poor fellow must have worked 80 hours a week for years on end, or it was the only stone or one of only a few stones in a busy shop -- a very real possibility. At any rate, one flat side is nice to have.


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2017)

bugbear":1ba7k3cz said:


> CStanford":1ba7k3cz said:
> 
> 
> > Most used natural stones I've seen, if they have a swale, have it on only one side.
> ...


I got a Norton with the fine side untouched - you could still see the lettering, but the coarse side deeply convex. Still no need to flatten, it is perfectly usable. Incidentally it cuts much faster than a coarse Ezelap diamond. Tthe EZe lap is finer but not by much.


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2017)

essexalan":3i1hsjur said:


> A lot of Charnleys only have one usable side, the other side is just as it was cut out of the solid rock or the stone is fitted so tightly in it's box you would have to wreck the box to get it out. Luckily they are one of the easiest natural stones to flatten and stay flat in use for a good time.


I think it's because a lot of Charnleys are from an early period. Once diamond saws were common(er) fully rectangular stones became easier to cut, and became the norm.

I do cherish a non-rectangular Arkansas I found. Only ever seen one, and I bought it.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2017)

CStanford":3vimj6g6 said:


> My guess is that the stone was used by a carver or a turner especially if the hollows are different. If not, it's hard to imagine hollowing a stone on both faces doing chisels and plane irons. Poor fellow must have worked 80 hours a week for years on end ...


And used it badly? Most of us (especially water stone users) know how within reason to spread the wear.


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## D_W (9 Sep 2017)

CStanford":rvedo7wt said:


> D_W":rvedo7wt said:
> 
> 
> > Charlie, do you have a stationary belt sander? If you do, easy peasy. It'll be a little work, but your idea is a good one. I've got a load of broken stones, and even giving away the parts shaped as slips would be better than throwing them out -I hate that.
> ...



I'll post one. Unfortunately, it takes a stationary sander (you need access to a hard idler drum at the end), but I'll bet there are other ways to get at the same thing (grinders, etc). Certainly it can wait until you've figured out what shape you want. 

About twice a year I see people post on forums talking about long draw-out ways to address washita stones. I've never made a video that was very useful to many people, so I can certainly make another one just like that. 

(I just used the drum end of same belt sander yesterday to set the edge on a new long-handled grass hook that I can use to trim my holly trees without stepping into them and getting scuffed up. I cursed the sander as being junk beginners fodder, but I've probably done $500 worth of work with it that I couldn't do with anything else - just none of it has anything to do with wood).


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## D_W (9 Sep 2017)

I've kind of screwed myself by talking up the washita to the razor boards. Two years ago, I could've gone out to ebay, bought a washita with sway for $30, cleaned it up and flattened it and sold it for a couple of bucks more. 

I just picked up an old stone with sway off of ebay. I don't think I have anything out of flat, except for some stones that have sway in spots that I'd like to keep. 

(I think you could probably turn a wooden drum on the lathe out of scrap and make something that would work the same way as what I'll do in the video. Wouldn't use it on the stone in a good lathe, but that goes without saying. Could make a 3/4" wheel out of plywood and put it on a grinder and do the same thing if there's no guard in the way - just glue coarse sandpaper to the wheel with good quality contact cement). 

If you've actually watched all of the videos I've posted, I might send you a sympathy card.


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## ED65 (9 Sep 2017)

I don't know if D_W is going to emphasise this point but I feel the caution needs to be said early: if you're sanding a sharpening stone (of any kind but especially naturals) make sure you're wearing breathing protection! A proper dust mask should be considered the minimum. 

The dust from all natural whetstones is not something you want any of in your lungs.


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## D_W (10 Sep 2017)

Of course. It's generally silica of some sort (chemically transformed in some way if it's novaculite). One time won't kill you, but it's not good for you. Lots of times sent stone cutters to an early death. 

Outside with a mask is best practice.


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## CStanford (10 Sep 2017)

phil.p":3rujvj1q said:


> CStanford":3rujvj1q said:
> 
> 
> > My guess is that the stone was used by a carver or a turner especially if the hollows are different. If not, it's hard to imagine hollowing a stone on both faces doing chisels and plane irons. Poor fellow must have worked 80 hours a week for years on end ...
> ...



Re; the "poor fellow" -- working on a stone furnished by the Governor no doubt...


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## D_W (17 Sep 2017)

Here's what I do. I've dulled this belt on metal and japanese stones before this, but it still does the job. Very low power sander, less than 4 amps at 110v. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-073wnW ... e=youtu.be

The drum on this sander is a cylinder with straight sides, so you can use the contact vector to establish flatness on a stone very well and only have to lap with a sandpaper lap or a diamond hone for a short period of time. 5 minutes in this case. Total time about 22 minutes or something, and no sweating. 

I paid $40 for this stone and didn't do anything to ensure that it would be a washita, which was foolish, but it's a beautiful stone - a very soft feeling washita with a lot of bite, better than any middle stone that came of japan, so I took the opportunity while it's fresh and smart to reestablish the bevel on a japanese chisel. 

https://s26.postimg.org/z2fl2rl61/IMG_2 ... 202107.jpg

I don't have any broken stones to make slips (other than japanese stones, but they're not good candidates for that), but maybe I'll run into one at some point. Might take a half hour to make a slip with a good belt, but washita slips costs about $40.

Useful for any natural stone. Slates go by in a blink.


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## bugbear (17 Sep 2017)

D_W":239iv7lo said:


> Very low power sander, less than 4 amps at 110v.


If only there were some standard measure of power, obtainable by multiplying current and voltage together...  

BugBear


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## D_W (17 Sep 2017)

bugbear":1pca9sny said:


> D_W":1pca9sny said:
> 
> 
> > Very low power sander, less than 4 amps at 110v.
> ...



We generally don't describe motors in watts here. Just the way it is.


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## bugbear (17 Sep 2017)

D_W":1onvyv8i said:


> bugbear":1onvyv8i said:
> 
> 
> > D_W":1onvyv8i said:
> ...


It's a UK forum Dave - do try to fit in!  

BugBear


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## D_W (17 Sep 2017)

Put a new belt on the sander today and flattened a much harder stone. Should've done that before the video!

No big deal. Novaculite stones seem really hard until they meet aluminas, etc, and then they turn to powder.


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## essexalan (18 Sep 2017)

Looks fast and effective great if you have a stone throughput like yours DW. Have left a number of Washitas in shops that have had that amount of sway, they go for very little money, because flattening them manually is too much like hard work and the neighbours would create something terribly if I coated their back garden in silica dust. Washita slip stones sound interesting and I would like to see how they compare with my usual India, trans Ark or diamond dressed leather on shaped wood approach. Wood is so much easier to shape than a chunk of Washita though and the latter would require the purchase of a wet diamond disc saw plus the belt sander.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2017)

Why not use the belt sander for sharpening - then you wouldn't need to flatten the stones? In fact you could just bin them.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2017)

Slow speed and slack belt, it's junk. It's hardly suitable for razors, scissors, Japanese chisels, etc. Very lucky to even have figured out that the idler is useful. It rounds the corners on everything.

Of course of tried early on to use the thing as a Sharpener, which is what the leather disc is an artifact of. It shot a large tapered plane blade into the ceiling and then bouncing off the floor in one shot. Very dangerous. Even went so far as to get two cork belts for it.


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## essexalan (18 Sep 2017)

Jacob":3aregvqs said:


> Why not use the belt sander for sharpening - then you wouldn't need to flatten the stones? In fact you could just bin them.



Washitas are no longer mined so unlike an India you can't just bin it and buy another one. If your preference is for natural stones then they are worth saving and the result in the video would give you a stone that should last a lifetime if it is any good. Definitely would not let a diamond plate anywhere near a Washita though not for flattening purposes anyway.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2017)

Results in a slow diamond plate. I did two of these that I bought off of eBay with a third stone. Three nice boxes, two drastically different washitas. Cost a fair bit of coin with shipping includes ...about $115. Foolish, but i wanted to make this video and it turned out ok with what washitas are going for now.

The only two fleas around here are patrolled by a dealer who takes everything before the flea starts and then put out junk and keeps the good stuff. He's a real prick, too. As far as what he puts out for stones, only used India and carborundum. He keeps the rest and boasts about what he's gotten. Dealers get in earlier, so you can't beat him in without setting up a booth or paying fifty bucks.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2017)

Are these kinds of belt sanders common in the UK, or do you guys have an even smaller more dainty English version with a little tray for tea bags?

They are all over the place over here, and I have to say 100% honestly, my parents have made three quarters of a million dollars over the years selling some horrid crafty stuff as a my father is involved in the prep work of the materials, he's worn out two stationary belt sanders of this type and now has a bench top version like this. 

I called him yesterday to find him scraping coffee filters because my mothers customers like "flowers" that have been made out of used coffee filters. Yeah, I have no idea, either, but they said new ones don't look right. Whereas I will spend all kinds of money on stupid things like $115 to get two stones that will hopefully be worth that once i'm done, they will scrape coffee filters and celebrate the use of free materials. A more interesting observation to me is what is missing in the lives of folks who are spending $2 for flowers made out of used coffee filters, but that wouldn't be very polite to examine and report on. 

At any rate, do you guys do these tools over there (the combination belt disc sander) or are the little scabby homeowners versions like this something that they can only get over on americans?


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## AndyT (18 Sep 2017)

D_W":s7o7iase said:


> At any rate, do you guys do these tools over there (the combination belt disc sander) or are the little scabby homeowners versions like this something that they can only get over on americans?



Yes, they are available, bearing such premium, reassuring brand names as "Clarke" "Draper" or "Silverline." Between £93 and £125. 

I don't know anyone who has one.


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## essexalan (18 Sep 2017)

Never seen one used and have no use for one, here's a cheap one http://www.axminster.co.uk/powermatic-3 ... der-102216. No room for tea bags though but you can probably get a tray attachment for a tea pot plus a plate of scones. Real Englishmen use tea leaves not tea bags old boy and you put the cream on your scone before the jam.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Sep 2017)

Jam first. Always.


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## DTR (18 Sep 2017)

I just knew that a sharpening thread with 72 replies would be full of drivel. Cream first? Pure lunacy. 



essexalan":2ayiovv5 said:


> Never seen one used and have no use for one, here's a cheap one http://www.axminster.co.uk/powermatic-3 ... der-102216. No room for tea bags though but you can probably get a tray attachment for a tea pot plus a plate of scones. Real Englishmen use tea leaves not tea bags old boy and you put the cream on your scone before the jam.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2017)

essexalan":26daacjy said:


> Never seen one used and have no use for one, here's a cheap one http://www.axminster.co.uk/powermatic-3 ... der-102216. No room for tea bags though but you can probably get a tray attachment for a tea pot plus a plate of scones. Real Englishmen use tea leaves not tea bags old boy and you put the cream on your scone before the jam.



Goodness, I forgot about the loose tea, which is not uncommon here, but not considered the commoner's tea. 

I had a dandy little ryobi grinder that I used to use (I set it out at the curb, but really, it wasn't that bad - just underpowered). It had a little tray in the middle that was very shallow, I think they thought you'd put water in it and pull it out to dip an edge...in about 1/4th inch of water. 

If you managed to over grind something and had a dip cup, you could've put tea leaves in that tray, and if your water was warm enough, broke for a cup until your tool cooled. 

We do have some pants-too-tight germophobe americans over here, but I think on average, an Englishman with manners would be horrified if they spent a day with me. I am descended from farmers and as long as it doesn't have mayonnaise, ketchup or mustard on it (include in that any of the various vegetable oil cheese-colored things that are not cheese), It'll pretty much eat anything that's been resident anywhere for any period of time. I'll believe that it will make you sick when I actually see it happen. 

When I am around my in-laws, whose idea of doing something is finding out who to pay, and they see a spot on a glass at a restaurant and just about come out of their pants trying to get it sent back so they can get a "clean one", all I can think is "good God, not a man."

Tea bags or not, I'm good to go.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2017)

essexalan":2dx41fo8 said:


> Never seen one used and have no use for one, here's a cheap one http://www.axminster.co.uk/powermatic-3 ... der-102216. No room for tea bags though but you can probably get a tray attachment for a tea pot plus a plate of scones. Real Englishmen use tea leaves not tea bags old boy and you put the cream on your scone before the jam.



I have, by the way, always been impressed with Powermatic's ability to ask astronomical prices for pedestrian tools that come from the far east. 

Reminds me of Coach wallets. they have the same stamp on them, maybe, but they're not what we think they are. 

And that one has a guard over the end idler. I suppose it's *possible* to get something in there, but it would be really difficult. Perhaps when you take it off, it hooks to the side of the machine somewhere so that the purchaser can hang their purse on it.


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