# Stanley Bailey No 4: To far gone?



## timbo614 (23 Jul 2016)

I picked this up for £3.50 at the boot sale last Sunday. Just taking a proper look it it.

Nothing moves  which I already knew. Both grips are split the handle completely.

What do the experts here think of the chances of rescuing it?

At the moment the suposedly moving parts are soaking in WD40 and 3-In-One. Will post again when (if) I can get it apart!

Pictures:


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## Bod (23 Jul 2016)

It's do able.
But whether a modern one like that is worth it, if nothing else it's a good practise case.
Check the pitting on the back of the blade first, any pitting there, then it's scrap or new blade.

Bod


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## Bm101 (23 Jul 2016)

Certainly no expert.
If it's in that state and not too old I think I'd be a bit wary of how it's been treated tbh before I put a lot of time into it. Looks like one of those abused dog adverts you see at Christmas time. :|


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## timbo614 (23 Jul 2016)

>> Check the pitting on the back of the blade first, any pitting there, then it's scrap or new blade.

I got it partly disassembled. It's scrap really. Not only is is the blade badly corroded so is the backing iron I can't seperate them even with lots of WD and an enormous screwdriver. The frog bolts & washers have corroded so badly they seem fused into one piece. Shame - the price of a pint wasted! I'll get something better to to try to restore I might work on the body & sole just for the practice & experience as you suggest.

The "best" bits of are the threaded rods and caps that hold the handle and knob on. Hmm.. I have spares already!


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## bugbear (23 Jul 2016)

It's a parts donor - it you can get it apart. You never know when you'll need a frog-bolt or a mouth-adjusting-plate-holding-screw for a good 'un.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jul 2016)

Just keep your eyes open - I've seen near perfect older ones sell for four or five quid. I've only once paid over £5 for a No.3, 4, or five. As BB said - keep any parts you can.


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## kwigly (23 Jul 2016)

and get an impact driver,
best tool ever for loosening stuck screws


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## Ttrees (23 Jul 2016)

I always look for a nice thick sole 
and it looks to be by pic 2 .
I'd get cracking on and restore it , no hesitations  
But then I'm a glutton for punishment


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## ED65 (23 Jul 2016)

I don't think there were enough photos and they weren't large enough to give a proper assessment but I'd say it's unlikely that it's too far gone. I recently bought my first Stanley plane and in some ways it was in worse condition, and this is how it ended up. And there are multiple galleries online showing planes far rustier than either of ours brought back to good working order, and in some cases to like-new condition.

Your handles could well have been goners though (especially if you needed to get the whole plane wet in order to unscrews them) but they're the least of your worries since you can make replacements and if needed they're easily bought.

Whether a plane like this is worth the time and effort to clean it up is up to you of course. This is one of those things which divides woodworkers but both the time and effort needed (to get a plane back to a user) are regularly overstated on forums, mostly from those who use hands-on methods. All the best ways of removing rust are hands-off though, so what they mostly require of you is the patience to wait out the process. It doesn't require lots of sweaty toil bent over the tool, ending up with you having black fingers and a sore back 



timbo614":3pkswywf said:


> Not only is is the blade badly corroded so is the backing iron I can't seperate them even with lots of WD and an enormous screwdriver.


That's the wrong way to try to get them apart. Everyone who restores old tools will come across something at some point which isn't just stuck together because of rust but is 'rust welded' and that's when rust removal needs to become an integral part of the initial disassembly (or you risk damaging or breaking parts). You want to eat/dissolve the rust, at best they'll nearly come apart on their own afterwards.


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## ED65 (23 Jul 2016)

Bod":924vv60s said:


> Check the pitting on the back of the blade first, any pitting there, then it's scrap or new blade.


Pitting isn't an automatic dealbreaker on the flat of the blade. How much of an issue they represent is down to how many there are and how deep they are, and of course their location in relation to the edge. 

Even if there are pits at the edge whether they matter at all depends on the type of plane. Almost nobody does it, but you can leave pits on some plane irons, on a jack or roughing plane for example.


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## Carl P (24 Jul 2016)

A vinegar, or diluted vinegar bath helps dissolve rust - I left a very rusty Record 52 vice in a big plastic box full of diluted vinegar with some acetic crystals for good measure, after a couple of days (you shouldn't need that long as you wouldn't need to dilute it as much as I did) I scrubbed it down to find a completely good vice. If you do this it at least gives you a chance to see what's under the rust and gunk and then be able to make a realistic assessment of whether it's worth putting any more time in.

Cheerio,

Carl


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## timbo614 (24 Jul 2016)

Opinions, opinions! 

Ed - thanks for ideas. I didn't have to submerge the whole plane in WD. The grip (tote?) and knob came off easily. I wasn't trying to prise apart the blade and iron, just undo the locking bolt! I'll try the drill in reverse screwing mode so it jars it, some where I have an extra wide slot bit. 
I can't do Hi-Res photos because of the limts on the forum photo size ( I can take then and in super-macro mode the image above of the corrosion was originally 1.4Mb) but although a techie I do not want any "media publishing" internet accounts, I have enough junk mail as it is!

Carl - I'll try that! What ratio of vinegar/water dilution did you use? I've plenty of vinegar as it happens.

So, I haven't junked it yet, it's not in my nature to give up on things immediately especially "new" projects. I'll work on until defeat is staring me straight in the face, close up.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Jul 2016)

Might be worth a search for electrolysis.


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## thetyreman (24 Jul 2016)

apple cider vinegar is extremely good for rust removal, try that.


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## timbo614 (24 Jul 2016)

Well, nearly 63 years on this planet and I didn't know that vinegar removed rust! I know you learn something every day and I have today, but that is ridiculous.
The rusted parts have been in their bath for nearly 6 hours I gave them a quick scrub just now with a small stiff bristle (not wire) brush and there is marked improvement already.

I'm using Siansbury's "basics vinegar" 1/3rd to 2/3rds water.


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## ED65 (24 Jul 2016)

timbo614":29ecq6vo said:


> I didn't have to submerge the whole plane in WD. The grip (tote?) and knob came off easily.


That was handy. Sorry that bit wasn't clear, I meant if you had to submerge the whole plane in rust remover, or in an electrolysis bath, not WD-40 (that would be pricey!) :shock: 



timbo614":29ecq6vo said:


> I wasn't trying to prise apart the blade and iron, just undo the locking bolt!


Yes I got that. I've seen many severely damaged cap iron screws where an attempt was made to force ones that were stuck fast. And apparently it really is possible to break the head clean off, to judge by the headless screws that are sometimes seen stuck in the body casting :mrgreen: 

Anyway, these are the classic stuck bits that a soak in rust remover will change from simply-won't-budge to one-grunt-and-loose. First time I did this (on the solidly rusted irons from a coffin smoother) I only needed to use an old 2p coin to loosen the screw after soaking. I was completely amazed.



timbo614":29ecq6vo said:


> Well, nearly 63 years on this planet and I didn't know that vinegar removed rust! I know you learn something every day and I have today, but that is ridiculous.


Here's another one for you, you'll love this: mix some molasses into water and that'll remove rust too! Sounds like an old wives' tale but it works well, albeit slowly. It can take weeks for very heavy rust, although regularly fishing the stuff out and scrubbing it down just like you've done greatly speeds up the process. 



timbo614":29ecq6vo said:


> I'm using Siansbury's "basics vinegar" 1/3rd to 2/3rds water.


That'll work. Vinegar type doesn't matter, it's the acetic acid that does it and all vinegars have some. 

The only reason to prefer one over another is cost or how strong it is since stronger vinegars work faster, but since you can speed up the reaction by heating the vinegar (useful technique that) there's no real need to buy anything more than your basic vinegar. 

By the way, dissolving salt into the vinegar also makes it work better.


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## ED65 (24 Jul 2016)

Carl P":tyhrhpik said:


> ...diluted vinegar with some acetic crystals for good measure...


Why dilute the vinegar and then add acetic crystals Carl, isn't that one step back and one forward?


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## Jacob (24 Jul 2016)

Dunno I've seen worse!
1 Separate all the components.
2 Stick broken knob, handle, back together
3 Sharpen the blade - don't worry about pits too much, nor any mad flattening inclinations
4 Make sure the cap iron edge is clean and tight against the blade
5 Scrape rust off sole and meeting faces sole/frog/blade
6 Slosh raw linseed oil over everything
7 Put it back together and start planing!

If you can't separate bits then it turns into a metal work problem. Blade pitting is usually survivable but there is obviously a point of no return. Pitting anywhere else doesn't matter at all.


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## timbo614 (25 Jul 2016)

Hi Jacob, I'm still on step one of your list unfortunately.

As a progress report tho' after 30 odd hours in the vinegar bath something vaguely palne like emerged. still some way to go especially for the blade and backing iron, which I don't hold out too much hope for to be honest.
Another problem is the frog bolts which still look rusted on so at the cost of another half litre of vinegar I have put it all back in a fresh bath - I'm assuming there is a limit to the chemical reaction, so refreshed it.

On blade and backing iron I picked up a record no 4 for a quid this Sunday that was almost destroyed it had a broken frog at the top where the lateral lever attaches, busted side near the nose - gawd knows what had happened to it. But the blade and back iron although rusted looked in much better knick than the Stanley... They have been in the bath too and came apart just using the cap iron (as you do). They look like they will fit...


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## clauskeller (26 Jul 2016)

Hi,

I suggest to try it with citric acid instead of vinegar. I had never rust that resisted this. Much on the internet about it, and probably here as well, just search.

I'm sure the plane can be brought back to work.

Claus


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## Bm101 (26 Jul 2016)

Just a quick one. When you've finished with the vinegar you might want to neutralise it with some water and bicarb of soda. I've found personally at least it seems to stop flash rusting that I got a few times with vinegar even after washing and drying thouroughly. Might be my reasoning is off but based on the fact it's not recurred since using it with tools kept in the same conditions and you probably already have some in a cupboard....why not? From my (very) limited experience leaving metal for too long in vinegar can blacken it. Unimportant other than aesthetically. Depends on what you're after but worth bearing in mind perhaps.


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## timbo614 (26 Jul 2016)

Update. turning ito a WIP (I've learned that one).

Well finished work, took it all out of it's bath again. More impovement but maybe as good it's going to get?

Had another go at getting it apart.. and... the cut adjustment knob turns! Wow! And I got it all the way off.

An hour and more later i had also managed to remove the top frog bolts with many fine words and much grunting and some less than gentle persuasion. The back bolt just undid easily. Not the last one that holds the bracket to the body though gave up on that for now.

So getting the frog off revealed a lot more gunk, rust and grubbiness so I've put it and the body back in the vinegar. One last chance it may let me get the final bolt out and hopefully removes the newly revealed rust.

On the age of this plane; it not old by 1860 standards but I don't think it's very new either for a few reasons: 1) It's black japanned 2) it has "STANLEY" embossed on the Lateral lever 3) it has a cast "forked lever" to connect the depth adjustment. So according to that it is pre 1962. But it definitely does not have Rosewood grips.

Some pictures in a mo.


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## Carl P (27 Jul 2016)

Glad to hear things are moving on well - looking forward to the pictures.

ed65 - 
Carl P wrote:
...diluted vinegar with some acetic crystals for good measure...
Why dilute the vinegar and then add acetic crystals Carl, isn't that one step back and one forward?

It is indeed! The reason for the crystals was simply because I'd diluted the vinegar a lot to be able to submerge the vice, I happened to have them so thought I'd put them in to speed things up a bit. I used to use the crystals a lot but was never really sure of how much water to add and anyone on the internet talking about them seemed oddly evasive on the exact proportions. There also seemed to be a myth that it only attacked the rust not the metal - I managed to debunk this myth quite comprehensively a couple of years ago by not realising that there was a single moulding plane iron left in the murky liquid, a month later it was somewhat less than useable. It has joined the side of a box I made ages ago where I managed to mark out the dovetails upside down on one side and only realised once they were cut, displayed to remind me 'not to be so bloody stupid!', although at the time the language may have been more colourful.

Cheerio,

Carl


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## timbo614 (27 Jul 2016)

[Pictures in mo.] At that point I realised it was 9PM and I had not eaten ... Now have to work, so pictures tonight.


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## ED65 (27 Jul 2016)

timbo614":x5tvlya3 said:


> I'm assuming there is a limit to the chemical reaction, so refreshed it.


Yes, the acetic acid gets used up in the reaction. 

Add salt, it helps your vinegar go further and work faster. In the great tradition of TV cookery shows, here's one I made earlier:







This took less than 24 hours and I've used the solution four or five times previously, with just one top up of fresh vinegar last week. As I mention above this included a couple of scrubs to remove anything made loose by the soaking, it would be a little slower (not by too much) if just left alone to work.


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## ED65 (27 Jul 2016)

Bm101":2ced2m0b said:


> Just a quick one. When you've finished with the vinegar you might want to neutralise it with some water and bicarb of soda.


Neutralising traces of acid is a good idea IMO. Rinsing, even very extensive rinsing, may not be enough and could leave the part permanently more prone to rust. 

Washing in soap can also do it since bars of soaps are usually highly alkaline. Some are slightly greasy too which doesn't hurt.


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## ED65 (27 Jul 2016)

Carl P":eeajagxn said:


> I used to use the crystals a lot but was never really sure of how much water to add and anyone on the internet talking about them seemed oddly evasive on the exact proportions.


A familiar pattern, the "Oh uh I just use a handful in a bucket of water." kind of thing. What you want to know ideally is what amount of crystals in a given volume of water approximately equals table vinegar so you have a starting point to make something stronger or weaker as you prefer. 

A chemistry forum I think should be able to help you with that if you want to find out.



Carl P":eeajagxn said:


> There also seemed to be a myth that it only attacked the rust not the metal


God, I'd love to know who thought that since you can see etching beginning to happen PDQ :shock: This is the same with most other acids too. Reputedly phosphoric acid doesn't do this and if this is right tannic acid might work similarly, since they react with iron to form a stable compound that resists further chemical action.


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## beech1948 (27 Jul 2016)

Freeing up rusted parts requires something more suitable than WD40....the WD stands for Water displacement....its not a penetrating oil or fluid at all. WD40 would be a waste of time and effort.

Best solution is acetone ( try nail varnish remover) and brake fluid mixed 50/50.....soak for a few days.

Next bast way to remove rust when plane is in bits is either vinegar ( I'm not keen on this) or electrolysis. For electrolysis look on Youtube as there are many videos of the process. Its cheap, very effective and can be quite fast as well as simple.


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## timbo614 (27 Jul 2016)

So thanks to every one this is where i am at

generally looking bettter:


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## timbo614 (27 Jul 2016)

Then this:


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## timbo614 (27 Jul 2016)

came undone using this (two handed plus grunt):


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## timbo614 (27 Jul 2016)

Unfortunately although separated it does not help the state the blade which I think has really had it. The "bumps" show here better than the pits that are of equal size and this is a surface exposed to nearly 3 days vinegar bath:


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## timbo614 (27 Jul 2016)

On the bright side I a have rust removal lab and have put the rest of the parts into the neutralising bicarb bath I gave them a scrub and washdown too using the handy lab water supply.I'm leaving them there for an hour. But it is also obvious that I may have overdone it the vinegat bit, there are definite signs of overall etching of the surfaces turning them a grey colour and slighly well, err, very finely and evenly pitted? Can't think of better word. I was warned!


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## ED65 (28 Jul 2016)

timbo614":3sdv7jnv said:


> Unfortunately although separated it does not help the state the blade which I think has really had it.


Yeah that's had it, I'll dispose of it properly if you want to post it to me  No seriously, the iron should be fine. Presumably that remaining rust is where the cap iron sat? You'll often find that between them if you had to soak them together because the remover couldn't get at the rust properly in the small gap. 

If you don't want to soak the whole iron any more change to scouring/sanding or a wire wheel. You'll be back in business in no time.



timbo614":3sdv7jnv said:


> But it is also obvious that I may have overdone it the vinegat bit, there are definite signs of overall etching of the surfaces turning them a grey colour and slighly well, err, very finely and evenly pitted? Can't think of better word. I was warned!


You could have a bit of fine etching but a lot of the texture is sure to be from the rust eating away at the steel, as here on the top of the iron on my no. 4. 

I think it's very hard to guess at what surface you'll find underneath from looking at steel in its rusty condition. Sometimes you're pleasantly surprised and other times it's worse than you expected (and occasionally it's bad only in little patches, for no apparent reason).


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## tooooools (28 Jul 2016)

I would go for the good old elbow grease... its a lot quicker


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## timbo614 (31 Jul 2016)

Vinegar, elbow grease and patience. I think I'm making progress. I didn't have a lot of time this week so only got back to it really later this afternoon.
`
What fo you think? Going in the right direction?


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## timbo614 (31 Jul 2016)

So, Some progress on metal work. Incidentally that is not the orginal blade and backing iron. Those are from the record. But after I removed a lot of crud and rust it turns out that the blade is not Record it is a Stanley  So I feel entitled to use it. I have got the original blade to the best I can. I put an experimental edge on it and it sharpens fine but will leave fine ridges because of the pitting. I will keep it use it for rough work, then switch to the newer blade for proper smoothing.

A couple of questions on finishes:
What do I paint the inner body with? I was thinking of Hammerite or something like Humbrol enamel?

Secondly I have done some prep and sanding on the handles, what do I finish them with to bring out the colour? I dabbed a bit of white spirit on the out of sight base of the handle and the colour will be very similar to the handle in the ED65's fnished plane.

At the moment the whole thing is covered in grease to stop the raw metal surfacea re-rusting. So I feel a can of degreaser is going to be added to the shopping list as well, but so far I have only spent 1.20 on vinegar and used some sanding sheets. So I can push the boat out on finishes.


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## ED65 (1 Aug 2016)

timbo614":1443yn00 said:


> What fo you think? Going in the right direction?


Deffo. Flick between your first photos and these recent ones and you'll get that same "Wow, I did this!" reaction that makes restoring tools so much fun.



timbo614":1443yn00 said:


> A couple of questions on finishes:
> What do I paint the inner body with? I was thinking of Hammerite or something like Humbrol enamel?


You can use any black paint that meets your standards. Some people obsess over getting a near-perfect match to period japanning in finish, thickness, colour and toughness (usually on pre-WWI planes to be fair) while for others if it's black and tough enough that it doesn't chip easily they're fine with it. If it's cheap and easy to order that doesn't hurt either 

If you go with any sort of enamel after it has dried if you bake the body casting in a cool oven (about 40-50°C) for an hour or two the paint will often be made tougher than if just left to dry at room temperature.

You might also want to prime first. Not everyone does but if you do I can recommend Hycote's primers, have had good results from them for years and they don't break the bank. For the paint if you're looking for something in a spraycan I think Hycote also do a satin black, I haven't used it myself but I have used their gloss black and I found it good.



timbo614":1443yn00 said:


> Secondly I have done some prep and sanding on the handles, what do I finish them with to bring out the colour? I dabbed a bit of white spirit on the out of sight base of the handle and the colour will be very similar to the handle in the ED65's fnished plane.


Well after staining the pale sapwood black I oiled mine lightly then used Rustin's French Polish, about six coats IIRC starting with brushing and ending with padding it on with a rubber. 

You'll get much the same appearance if you varnish using an oil-based poly, and it will be tougher. 



timbo614":1443yn00 said:


> At the moment the whole thing is covered in grease to stop the raw metal surfacea re-rusting. So I feel a can of degreaser is going to be added to the shopping list as well, but so far I have only spent 1.20 on vinegar and used some sanding sheets. So I can push the boat out on finishes.


Common white spirit can be used to degrease quite effectively. The main ingredient in most commercial degreasers is basically the same solvent, just named differently.

Follow by wiping with acetone or meths if you want to get the surface super clean and dry.


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## timbo614 (1 Aug 2016)

ED65 - Thanks for the long reply. It's appreciated.



> Wow, I did this!


 I did have quite a smile going after I took the pictures and looked at them  My joy is _fixing things_ I love fixing broken stuff and putting it back in use. I even have the Tee shirt to prove it, bought by my Grandson it says "IF Granddad can't fix it - NO ONE CAN!" 

So I'm looking at Hycote primer & satin black - there goes nearly the price of a car boot half-done plane! But Primer and matt black are always usefull.

[edit] For the handles:[/edit]
I have some osmo Polyx-oil 3032 Satin-matt. I like this product, it goes on easily and most times only needs one coat, will that do the job? After all I'm only going to use this plane myself, not display it in a show .


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## Bm101 (1 Aug 2016)

You should be well pleased with that Timbo I'd think. =D> I prefer the feel of a wax rather than a varnish on handles and slop a few coats of bison black wax on. Not sure it really matters as long as you're happy with it. 
You might be interested in this if you haven't seen it. I stole several tips from here. The wooden polishing dowel one is great as is the the tip for sanding down using a drill. Whether you want to polish up the plane to these standards is a personal choice of course. Careful you don't get carried away now! :wink: http://www.majorpanic.com/handplane_restor1.htm if you haven't seen it, enjoy!
If you're convinced about the Japanning, Craftmasters apparently supply excellent enamel paints. Price might be prohibitive and you can get lost wandering about the website as well. Not because it's a bad website its just very interesting! http://www.craftmasterpaints.co.uk/
Great Job
Regards
Chris


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## tooooools (1 Aug 2016)

Wow! What a transformation. 

Heading down the supermarket tomorrow to buy some vinegar and elbow grease.


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## Vann (1 Aug 2016)

timbo614":2ekjgte8 said:


> A couple of questions on finishes:
> What do I paint the inner body with? I was thinking of Hammerite or something like Humbrol enamel?


There is a school of thought that says take a minimalist approach (i.e. don't stamp out all traces of the previous users). I was looking at the pictures of your plane after de-rusting, and thought it looked good as it is. On the other hand - a Stanley No.4 has no rarity value whatsoever - so it's not a crime against humanity if you do repaint it. 

Personally, I fluctuate between keeping patina, and repainting, with no apparent logic  (although I'm slipping closer to the 'patina' camp)



timbo614":2ekjgte8 said:


> Secondly I have done some prep and sanding on the handles, what do I finish them with to bring out the colour?


Here I'm in the "feel the wood" camp. I don't polyureathane/varnish handles anymore. Sand, BLO (many coatings) and wax for me. Others who are more particular, use more expensive waxes and buff to a shine.

Your plane has the tops of the sides ground - which makes it an early model (1940s/early 1950s?) and therefore it's from an era before the quality had dropped too far. It should be a good plane.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Aug 2016)

I've never understood the faffing about with the woodwork, for the last 40 years I've soaked mine in linseed. I haven't even thought about which linseed, I just dump it all in a bucket every couple of years. It seems to work OK, just comfortable with no high gloss.


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## n0legs (1 Aug 2016)

Brilliant result, you gotta' be pleased with that =D>


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## AndyT (2 Aug 2016)

Like Vann said. I wouldn't rush to paint it. If you do paint it but wish you hadn't, you'll need more than vinegar to try and undo your work.


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## ED65 (2 Aug 2016)

timbo614":329cp977 said:


> I have some osmo Polyx-oil 3032 Satin-matt. I like this product, it goes on easily and most times only needs one coat, will that do the job? After all I'm only going to use this plane myself, not display it in a show .


I don't know what the Osmo product actually is (because they're doing their utmost to hide what it's actually made from) but to be honest I think virtually anything can be used on tool handles. It really doesn't matter much at the end of the day, in the sense that the handles themselves don't care, it's really more about how the user likes the touch and how it looks. 

It surprises me but I've become very catholic in my tastes with tool handle finishes, equally happy with matt handles on some things that were only oiled or had an oil/wax blend applied all the way to a high gloss from varnish or lacquer.


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## tooooools (2 Aug 2016)

Timbo are you looking to..

- return the plane to the original appearance
- return it to a good working state that has the feel of a plane with history

I would say the finishing of the plane depends on which of these you are looking to achieve.


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## timbo614 (2 Aug 2016)

@ tooooools & all,

Yes, I'm really pleased with it especially as it is my first attempt at a refurb.

I am only looking to be able to use it and it working well. It's a bonus if it looks nice but I have no problem with things that look well used and have history. 

On the "looks nice" front I like the idea of painting/finishing the metalwork in black and making the handles look like wood hopefully dark-ish so I will probably use the Polyx-Oil that I have (Make do and mend eh?). At this early stage of woodworking I don't have any other finishes except ordinary clear varnish.

I realise that now I am informed that the plane is maybe from the late 1940/50s that may be a crime but it was made to be used, not admired (even though I hve been admiring it a bit at the moment) and it is already a hybrid. Used it will be and in use it will gain a bit more historic patina no doubt 

P.S. I won't get back to this project now for a while because we are going on our hols in a few days and I still have mountain of work with a deadline of Thursday evening


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## Vann (2 Aug 2016)

Enjoy your holiday.

Cheers, Vann.


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## timbo614 (20 Aug 2016)

Quick update (No photo yet weather raining and is as dull as ditchwater here and Photos are so much easier/better in good daylight). I have the plane completely re-assembled so I could try it out  It still needs the woodwork finishing off. 
But here is the wierd thing: To pick up and use it is "nice" hard to explain, I have 70/80s Record No. 4 which (like most of my tools up to now) has been used for DIY stuff, so I put the two side by side. The Stanley is a good 1/4 inch shorter than the Record, The swept body sides are also about 1/16 lower, The casting on the Stanley seems finer, slightly more refined even tho' it is apparently of older manufacture. These combined make it lighter, in fact much lighter.

Picking up the Record after my test of the Stanley it now feels somehow clumsy or unbalanced the Stanley just feels nicer it maybe simply because it is lighter but I don't think that really explains it.

So to a point, mission accomplished! It is a useable tool once again. It's not pretty by any standard, it definitely looks like a working tool which is really the right effect I think.


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## Benchwayze (20 Aug 2016)

Crikey Tim! 

I have a 5 and half, that needs restoring and it's way better than that. You can have it for a donation to your fave charity. (It's a Record, but some clown painted it green. Hoi, where's me red nose? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

PS. Genuine offer BTW.


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## timbo614 (20 Aug 2016)

Benchwayze":2v6m1ch6 said:


> Crikey Tim!
> 
> I have a 5 and half, that needs restoring and it's way better than that. You can have it for a donation to your fave charity. (It's a Record, but some clown painted it green. Hoi, where's me red nose? :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> PS. Genuine offer BTW.



Hi, and thanks for the offer and vote of confidence! Trouble is tho' it would probabaly cost as much to post it as buying one (Generally a reasonable on is a tenner at my regular car boot). Plus I have lots of stuff I _should _sell and two ebay accounts, but I never get around to it recently. I think I'm a budding "true" hoarder!

Out of curiosity tho' - weigh it, add a bit, and we'll look up what the post would be...


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## Benchwayze (20 Aug 2016)

Will do, when I get into the shop tomorrow. 

But I doubt if via P4D.co.uk it would cost more than a tenner. Way less than it's worth when it's been fettled. 
It's a good old 'un. The sole probably needs truing, the tote needs attention, as it's loose and won't tighten right home. Probably needs a small washer to take up slack. A bit of a clean-up to the front knob, and a proper sharpening and job's a good 'un. You could even repaint it blue if you don't like the green. 

I did sharpen it, and took a few test cuts, which considering it was painted green, were not too bad at all! 

I'll get my camera batteries recharged and pm you a few pics.


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## Bm101 (20 Aug 2016)

=D> 
I know the post on a number 7 with royal mail, packaged, tracked and a 100 quid insurance came to £12.98 
Even among those with a competitive edge regarding tool prices on here that's a fantastic price for getting a tool you know is basically sound, free, from someone you can trust. 
Another time this forum restored my faith.


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## Benchwayze (21 Aug 2016)

Tim,

I think I solved the reason the plane was painted green. I seem to recall a chap where I used to work in the 60's, who painted his planes white, just abaft the handle, so he knew his plane, if it 'walked'! So maybe someone chose green for the same reason! 

I have had a closer look at this plane, and I find that the lever cap tension screw is worn, and wobbles about like a kid's loose tooth. It is possible to tighten it, but the blade is too stiff to adjust easily. I think the plane needs a replacement frog. If I can find one sculling around my shop I'll change it. If not, then I have a search on my hands, because I wouldn't feel right passing on the plane as it is; at least not without revealing the fault.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2016)

I had a large carpenter's tool box for many years - tastefully painted vivid pink.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2016)

If it comes to a replacement frog, just put a dollop of JB weld or epoxy in the cap screw hole and adjust the screw til right and leave it set. If it's knackered anyway, there's nothing to lose.


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## custard (21 Aug 2016)

ED65":tcmzalwx said:


> Bod":tcmzalwx said:
> 
> 
> > Check the pitting on the back of the blade first, any pitting there, then it's scrap or new blade.
> ...



Pitting on the flat of the iron _should_ be a deal breaker, "almost nobody does it" for a good reason.

It's not _just_ because of the rough finish that pitting produces. It's also because the pitted section in the edge is extremely blunt, so there's the _effort_ involved in driving a mill or two of extremely blunt blade through the workpiece. And the deeper you are into the workpiece (i.e. as with a jack or scrub plane), the harder it becomes. That's why no craftsman worth his salt will tolerate a chip in the edge of their iron; it's a faff to grind it out, but it's even more of a faff forcing it through the timber.

For the trivial cost of a replacement Stanley or Record iron it's just not worth the muscle power.


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## Benchwayze (21 Aug 2016)

phil.p":3s9p5hdn said:


> If it comes to a replacement frog, just put a dollop of BB weld or epoxy in the cap screw hole and adjust the screw til right and leave it set. If it's knackered anyway, there's nothing to lose.



Except my personal pride and integrity! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: (hammer) 
Cheers Phil, What is BB weld please?


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Aug 2016)

Sorry - meant to be JB.


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## ED65 (21 Aug 2016)

custard":3cyvm31x said:


> ED65":3cyvm31x said:
> 
> 
> > Almost nobody does it, but you can leave pits on some plane irons, on a jack or roughing plane for example.
> ...


I'm not talking anything of the level you'd class as a chip, just about a few minor pits remaining at the cutting edge. They'd be barely deep enough to catch a fingernail and not enough of them that the edge is serrated or anything like that.

I have two cambered irons with a few pits in rotation (one heavily cambered, the other lightly) and there's no noticeable difference in the effort to push. I would be against this if it did mean a big increase in resistance; it's why I'm not a fan of back-bevelling as a rule, even for the amateur who only planes occasionally this can be a big deal because they're not in 'planing condition' like a pro might be.


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## timbo614 (21 Aug 2016)

Benchwayze":375knity said:


> Tim,
> 
> I think I solved the reason the plane was painted green. I seem to recall a chap where I used to work in the 60's, who painted his planes white, just abaft the handle, so he knew his plane, if it 'walked'! So maybe someone chose green for the same reason!
> 
> I have had a closer look at this plane, and I find that the lever cap tension screw is worn, and wobbles about like a kid's loose tooth. It is possible to tighten it, but the blade is too stiff to adjust easily. I think the plane needs a replacement frog. If I can find one sculling around my shop I'll change it. If not, then I have a search on my hands, because I wouldn't feel right passing on the plane as it is; at least not without revealing the fault.



That's a shame. Can you decide if it is the bolt or thread? I assume the thread if you are thinking of a new frog. Could a sllightly oversized thread be cut and fashion or use a new matching bolt? It seems to me that the cap irons are a pretty loose fit on most planes in this respect so there would be leeway in the bolt size. I'll quickly add I'm not great with that type of metal work - I've avoided working on cars my whole life for that reason. I don't have any taps or dies either - but I know someone who has.

See what you've got in the parts pile first tho' of course


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## timbo614 (21 Aug 2016)

Custard & ED: As I mentioned at some point, I din't use the original blade because it was so bad. I did try sharpening it (as far as my sharpening abilities could take it) and a close look immediately revealed the problems that Custard is referring to. On the other hand - it does cut and produces shavings. 

Just thought I would further muddy the waters with that


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## Bod (21 Aug 2016)

Benchwayze":2vgog9vq said:


> Tim,
> 
> I think I solved the reason the plane was painted green. I seem to recall a chap where I used to work in the 60's, who painted his planes white, just abaft the handle, so he knew his plane, if it 'walked'! So maybe someone chose green for the same reason!
> 
> I have had a closer look at this plane, and I find that the lever cap tension screw is worn, and wobbles about like a kid's loose tooth. It is possible to tighten it, but the blade is too stiff to adjust easily. I think the plane needs a replacement frog. If I can find one sculling around my shop I'll change it. If not, then I have a search on my hands, because I wouldn't feel right passing on the plane as it is; at least not without revealing the fault.



Hi
I can supply a modern frog (foc) but it hasn't got the cap lever screw or the lateral lever, yours if it helps.

Bod


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## timbo614 (21 Aug 2016)

Hi


> I can supply a modern frog (foc) but it hasn't got the cap lever screw or the lateral lever, yours if it helps.
> Bod



I have Record cap screw  from the No. 4 I scrapped. It may well/should fit? Let's go for it.

I must be able to make something of it, if there's problems I still have about 6-8 weeks of boot sales to find parts from breakers like where I picked up a 2 1/4" stanley blade and backing iron today for 50p I believe that will fit the 5 1/2 too.

It'll probably be £15.00 postage with the additional bits. But PM me... (it'll be my first PM!) and as of yet I have no idea how I pay you either.. maybe put that in the PM. Once again thanks very much especially given the extra trouble.

Timbo.


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## Bm101 (21 Aug 2016)

Bod":1fclckfh said:


> Benchwayze":1fclckfh said:
> 
> 
> > Tim,
> ...


 That frog is starting to be so well travelled it's going to need it's own bus pass. :wink:

Timbo you might have to change your signature fella.


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## timbo614 (21 Aug 2016)

> Timbo you might have to change your signature fella.



That one is one of my Granddad's that I always remembered and proved true some many times.

My Dad had another one: "That'll come in handy if we never use it" which could apply to worn out or well travelled frogs


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## timbo614 (28 Aug 2016)

I think this is almost as far as I am going to go. There are a few obvious problems still, like the fit of the knob, it fixes down tight and firmly but the wood around the brass fixing cap just crumbled away at the very top due to to its time in water I assume.

There are still nicks and marks in the knob and handle but if I sanded them all out there wouldn't be much of handle or knob left! With the handle the bottom was soft and rotten (just like the top of the knob) so sanded until it was firm. Having done that I had to cut about and eigth off the fixing rod or it wouldn't tighten.

They were so discoloured that I stained them with a rosewood stain and then, having found some in the garage I finished them with severral coats of Danish oil.

I need to get a flat-stone and some fine wet and dry so that I can finish the sole and be sure the it is nice and flat.

Otherwise, it 's no work of art but I'm really pleased given how it started out. I've added a couple of reminders pics too - including the view of the frog that almost made me give up on it at the start!


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## worn thumbs (28 Aug 2016)

What a transformation!Well done.


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## Vann (28 Aug 2016)

Nice. =D> 

You've done well, that looks like it's be a good user plane. Anything more is just bling* - to satisfy yourself, not the wood you're intending to plane.

* nothing wrong with bling, but it's not necessary to make the plane cut well.

Cheers, Vann.


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