# Plane Makers...something to float yer boat??



## jimi43 (27 Oct 2014)

Part war of attrition...part friendship...and mostly encouragement was all I needed to get my backside out into the shop again and make a prototype tool...as "suggested" by our very own Toby...(tobytools)! 8) 

So having absolutely no idea where to start...a few more head scratchings and observations of other fine tools lead me to make one...for Toby...a request...and by chance one for me too! (how clever was that!! :wink: )

Steel....O1...of course...3mm ground gauge plate...







Toby requested 6 1/2" of tooth area and a total length of 8" so that's the dimensions. In retrospect...and if I ever make another..I should have cut it a few inches longer, leaving enough steel to use as hold-down space...but it worked out ok...






Handle was to be a tanged version as opposed to scales...so that was marked up too using a chisel as a template.

Now...this is where the pondering starts...I suppose it would have been nice to cut the teeth all by hand or employ piskies to do it for me...but I have long since lost interest in the magic of repetitive tasks like this with hand tools...and there is no way I have the skills to get the teeth all at the right pitch AND even...so I thought I would use the milling machine.






Over the last few weeks I had been pondering how to do this...I notice that Noel Liogier uses their mill and a tiny bullnose cutter...at an angle to create waves of teeth with round bottoms...very clever. But I had a 60 deg dovetail cutter...(don't ask me why)...and I figured that should do the trick.

At first I thought I would mount the steel upright on a right-angle plate but then I had a brainwave...the mill tilts doesn't it! (homer) 






I'd completely forgotten!!!  

The "side" was set just forward of upright...so about 80-85 degrees...LN are 80 degrees but I think that's too forward myself..so I pulled it back a tad.






It was a slow start...but as I became more confident I could speed up so it went quite quickly after that.






The stock is 60 mm wide...3mm thick so this will make two floats...






I am in the process of making a precision "RAS"...using a Proxxon drill and some neat cutters...which would have made the cutting job a breeze...but since it isn't ready yet...I had to resort to the old hacksaw....






...a long job...this stuff is pretty thick...good job I didn't choose 5mm!

Then to cut the tang...






I use a lot of box...and burr oak...mahogany...so I needed to get some offcuts to test...and chose a piece of boxwood...seemed tough enough...






Just did two opposing faces...to get an idea of the flatness...the smoothness and the crispness of interface...






...yup...I'm happy with that...and thanks to Philly for telling me to test it BEFORE I hardened it...(just in case!). Cheers Phil!! 8) 

So...now to stamp it with the KT mark...using old hammer stamps...(yes bootfair!)....






Done.....






OH...sorry...the letters are a bit off square...you get this when you are working a manual process as I was trying to line up the "T" with the grain of the steel.....all the best makers do this ya know...ask CLIFTON!! :wink: 

So...to the handles...






Any preferences guys?

Toby...this just needs hardening now..so I should get the kiln fired up this week and then I am going to put a bluing on it to protect the steel...

Oh...and sharpen it of course!

I'll leave you to make one of your superb hawthorn handles for it...

Enjoy... :wink: 

Jimi


----------



## Cheshirechappie (27 Oct 2014)

Interesting to see how well it works unhardened - that accords with John M Whelan's advice in his book, 'Making Traditional Wooden Planes'. He reckoned you could get about three planes out of an unhardened float before it needed touching up with a file.

It might be a good plan to temper it back rather more than you would a plane iron; something about a spring temper, so that a sawfile will just about cut the finished tool. Tempered to plane iron hardness, there'd be no way you could sharpen it without a special grinding wheel - and you'd be there all week with slipstones!


----------



## n0legs (27 Oct 2014)

Wow !!


----------



## jimi43 (27 Oct 2014)

Cheshirechappie":3cej7pox said:


> Interesting to see how well it works unhardened - that accords with John M Whelan's advice in his book, 'Making Traditional Wooden Planes'. He reckoned you could get about three planes out of an unhardened float before it needed touching up with a file.
> 
> It might be a good plan to temper it back rather more than you would a plane iron; something about a spring temper, so that a sawfile will just about cut the finished tool. Tempered to plane iron hardness, there'd be no way you could sharpen it without a special grinding wheel - and you'd be there all week with slipstones!



Yes....when I showed Phil Edwards he recommended that I tested it before I hardened it...the pitch of those teeth appears to be critical. I did make a tiny test piece to see if it cut at all...and it did...my thumb!! :shock: 

I usually temper the plane irons I make at 250 degrees (lamb casserole to off setting :mrgreen: ) and let go cold. 

What would you suggest...I am by no means an expert at this black art!!

Cheers mate...

Jimi


----------



## Cheshirechappie (27 Oct 2014)

I think for this one, somewhere nearer 300-310 centigrade might be better. About a full blue if going by colour. Much harder than that will damned hard on the files. (Screwdrivers are about 280-290C, and you can just about file them - it's cruel to the files, though.) 

Maybe a test-piece from a slip of scrap gauge plate might be a good idea, and see if you can cut it with a file once tempered.


----------



## AndyT (27 Oct 2014)

Wonderful stuff!

You might want to have a look at Holtzapffel's great work on Turning for some historical hints. Despite the general title, Volume 2 is a survey of hand tools with loads of useful detail on planes, saws files etc. (You can download it from the Master's Library at WK Fine Tools.)
Chapter 28 has a few words about floats. Having said that the teeth are shaped with a triangular file, he adds that floats are hardened and very slightly tempered, just enough to avoid fracture in use. After they have been dulled in use, they are re-tempered to deep orange or blue, so they can be resharpened with a file.

The Hawley Collection in Sheffield has some floats, from the Marples plane making workshops when they closed in 1965. Alongside the floats is a special clamp in which they could be held for sharpening by hand. You can see it at the bottom of this picture:







I think your idea is more practical! And it would take a commercial level of use to make one blunt, I reckon.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (27 Oct 2014)

Now that's interesting, Prof. I've never come across the idea of hardening right out, using until blunt, then tempering back - but why not? It makes sense. The dead hard tool will last a long time, as long as it's not too brittle to serve.

Maybe if Jimi hardens the float right out, then (say) boils in water for half an hour or so to stress relieve it a bit, the result would be unsharpenable with a file, but would last so long in intermittent service it wouldn't matter anyway.

In the days of carbon steel lathe tools, it used to be common practice to harden and temper, use until worn, then anneal and reshape by filing, reharden and temper. They preferred not to grind too much because the heat of grinding drew the temper, and because straight carbon steel doesn't harden deeply, so regrinding too often took off the hard skin and started to expose the softer core.


----------



## Sheffield Tony (27 Oct 2014)

Cheshirechappie":26uh3qgc said:


> I think for this one, somewhere nearer 300-310 centigrade might be better..



Sounds a bit hot to me. The lamb casserole will be ruined :lol: 

Seriously though, that is looking jolly good.


----------



## jimi43 (27 Oct 2014)

Good Lord! I have just got Annie used to opening the oven and finding tools in there and now you want me to hijack the kettle!!! :shock: 

I'm done for...done for I tell ya! :mrgreen: 

I think I like the idea of hardening out and low tempering...I think I'll try that first.

The edge is bleedin' sharp anyways...when I was cleaning off the cooling oil with a cloth and alcohol I looked down and the cloth was shredded!!! 

Good job I looked!

I will do that and see...

And Andy..I need that book...looks scrumptious! 

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement guys

Jimi


----------



## AndyT (27 Oct 2014)

Yes you do need that book - haven't you bought it yet? :roll: 

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/book-review-day-out-the-ken-hawley-experience-t61355.html


----------



## jimi43 (27 Oct 2014)

AndyT":1gvcumq4 said:


> Yes you do need that book - haven't you bought it yet? :roll:
> 
> https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/book-review-day-out-the-ken-hawley-experience-t61355.html



I can pick it up from Amazon for about five grand...

OFFER PRICE!

How do I order it direct...it's a bit confusing mate?

Jimi


----------



## swagman (27 Oct 2014)

Terrific work Jimi. I only wish I had some of your talent. 

Stewie;


----------



## G S Haydon (27 Oct 2014)

Excellent Jim! In the few books I have the only nod to floats is in Ellis where he says to make them out of old files. He says a Joiner would most likely use them for levelling out a mortice if the chopping out had gone wayward. Handles, pah, leave it tang exposed .
Also what stewie said!


----------



## jimi43 (27 Oct 2014)

swagman":233l4u9s said:


> Terrific work Jimi. I only wish I had some of your talent.
> 
> Stewie;



Such nice words Stewie but I fear that, having seen one of your masterpieces in the flesh...and used it extensively...I am not even in the same class.....just a back shed whittler mate...but thanks!

Jimi


----------



## swagman (28 Oct 2014)

Hi Jimi. I think your on the ball with the notion of a greater rake angle requirement on planemaker face floats. LN's current 80* is in my opinion too acute. 85 - 90 degree's would be more ideal. 

Its a topic that deserves some further discussion and experimentation. 

Stewie;


----------



## jimi43 (28 Oct 2014)

swagman":7n9r9xds said:


> Hi Jimi. I think your on the ball with the notion of a greater rake angle requirement on planemaker face floats. LN's current 80* is in my opinion too acute. 85 - 90 degree's would be more ideal.
> 
> Its a topic that deserves some further discussion and experimentation.
> 
> Stewie;



Now I have the setup sorted I may try some other angles but this one works so well....I think I may have (quite by accident) hit the "sweet spot"....

I would need some tests to compare with commercial models...I have the Liogier..so that could be test one...anyone else got the LN one apart from in Australia?

Jimi


----------



## AndyT (28 Oct 2014)

jimi43":1fnxq3uk said:


> AndyT":1fnxq3uk said:
> 
> 
> > Yes you do need that book - haven't you bought it yet? :roll:
> ...



When I did the review it was easy to order direct from the museum. I expect you still could if you ring up and ask.
Alternatively, just use a different bookshop. I tried Waterstones and they say they have it for the proper price 
https://m.waterstones.com/BookDetails.aspx?bookId=8128993

Oilstones would not be so good for this job.


----------



## Corneel (28 Oct 2014)

Jim, why did you leave that piece on the tip blank? I think it would work better if the first tooth can act in a scraping action.

Otherwise, looks great! Now it's going to be exciting if the heat treating will induce a lot of warp.


----------



## jimi43 (28 Oct 2014)

Corneel":fbq3yay3 said:


> Jim, why did you leave that piece on the tip blank? I think it would work better if the first tooth can act in a scraping action.
> 
> Otherwise, looks great! Now it's going to be exciting if the heat treating will induce a lot of warp.



Hi Corneel...

I'm going to cut that bit off later...yesterday was teeth testing.

Yes...warpage...(?)...that bit's got me worried too...any ideas on prevention? It's all about the "S Curve" isn't it....have to read some more Tubal Cain....

Jimi


----------



## jimi43 (28 Oct 2014)

AndyT":ca7g3tkm said:


> jimi43":ca7g3tkm said:
> 
> 
> > AndyT":ca7g3tkm said:
> ...



Cheers mate...I searched everywhere!

Jimi


----------



## Sheffield Tony (28 Oct 2014)

Corneel":1w9ntw5w said:


> Now it's going to be exciting if the heat treating will induce a lot of warp.



That's a thought. A deep pot of quenching oil might be an advantage so that it can go in upright, which might reduce any urge to take on a curve ?

Another pitfall could be loss of carbon from the cutting edges ?


----------



## jimi43 (28 Oct 2014)

Sheffield Tony":308w6jiw said:


> Corneel":308w6jiw said:
> 
> 
> > Now it's going to be exciting if the heat treating will induce a lot of warp.
> ...



Hi Tony

Yes...all being considered. I am in conversation with Philly and Aaron in other threads and on Messenger to try to prevent any distortion or decarburisation....

I have a huge pot of oil...deep enough to put the steel in at a slight angle and at one go in a sliding motion. I'm hoping that will suffice







Decarburisation is a different issue entirely...the kiln is a lot different than a coke forge or worse still oxy/acetylene in that it is a very small enclosed space...I intended to do what I do with the irons I made...put a bunch of charcoal in the kiln near the ceramic shelf to eat up all the residual oxygen during hardening....it's only in there for 15 minutes.

This is the kiln...






I have two..so this will be a test.

Any other ideas are of course....most welcome indeed!

Jimi


----------



## rxh (28 Oct 2014)

Fascinating stuff - well done Jimi.

If it does take a bend during quenching all is probably not lost. You could temper it and then straighten using the "three bolts" method.


----------



## Corneel (28 Oct 2014)

According to George Willson on sawmillcreek it is possible to straighten it for a very short period right after quenching. But you'll have to find the relevant thread overthere for the details.


----------



## jimi43 (28 Oct 2014)

rxh":2pg2i9of said:


> Fascinating stuff - well done Jimi.
> 
> If it does take a bend during quenching all is probably not lost. You could temper it and then straighten using the "three bolts" method.



Tell me more mate...I think I know what you are talking about but more detail would be most appreciated.

Thanks Corneel...I'll go and investigate.

Jimi


----------



## tobytools (28 Oct 2014)

jim,
the rate you have been achieving of late is outstanding, we all need a little push now at then. if i wasn't prodded and poked by some id still be miserable working a job i didn't love and not pursuing a career in what i love 

can't wait to see it in the steel. 
im watching carefully as to how this is done. i have a project in the pipe line. just waiting for my steel to arrive (i didn't have the size needed and what i do have is for plane irons.)

keep your escalation of tooling up jimi, we all love it 

thanks mate.
TT


----------



## rxh (28 Oct 2014)

Jimi, this is what I meant. I have used this way successfully to straighten various things or bend them. A bit of copper or aluminum packing would protect the teeth. It helps to have an assistant when setting it up.


----------



## jimi43 (28 Oct 2014)

rxh":14pf7a5g said:


> Jimi, this is what I meant. I have used this way successfully to straighten various things or bend them. A bit of copper or aluminum packing would protect the teeth. It helps to have an assistant when setting it up.



Gotcha! Now I know that every day in every way I find out something new!

Brilliant..simply brilliant! =D> 

(all the old boys go DOH! Doesn't he know that one! :mrgreen: )

Jimi


----------



## Sheffield Tony (29 Oct 2014)

jimi43":1nyegurn said:


> Hi Tony
> 
> Yes...all being considered. I am in conversation with Philly and Aaron in other threads and on Messenger to try to prevent any distortion or decarburisation....



Ok, I see you have it in hand. I'd lost track of that thread when it seemed to have slid into linisher envy !

Your heat treatment set up is a bit more sophisticated than my blowtorch (or 2), housebrick and baked bean can full of cooking oil(*). I'll leave you to get on with it !

(*) This was a refinement. When making my travisher iron, I learned that it is unwise to hold your quenching oil in a plastic container. Can't beileve I did that


----------



## Corneel (29 Oct 2014)

It was a bit of searching, but in here George Wilson explains how he straightens floats after tempering, while thet are still hot:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-162029.html?s=416384fb2151fbf7781179cf112bed39


----------



## AndyT (29 Oct 2014)

I should have added a bit more from my reading of Holtzapffel - after the description of hardening and tempering there is a mention that floats used by comb makers were sharpened by turning an edge with a burnisher, like sharpening a cabinet scraper.

I wonder if this is worth a try, for planemaker's floats? Here's the whole page for anyone who has not already downloaded the entire work:


----------



## jimi43 (31 Oct 2014)

Corneel":11vqf68j said:


> It was a bit of searching, but in here George Wilson explains how he straightens floats after tempering, while thet are still hot:
> 
> http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-162029.html?s=416384fb2151fbf7781179cf112bed39



Most helpful Corneel...I am embarking on the hardening this weekend now that I have some slip clay and Borax...

I will report back on the results...fingers crossed!

Andy...thanks for the additional information...Mr H certainly was a lad!

Cheers

Jimi


----------



## jimi43 (5 Nov 2014)

This mysterious tool has created quite a bit of research..thanks guys for the various input.

There seems to be three schools of thought about these niche tools...

1) The old stories of creating them from dead files...tempering the file in the fire and cutting the teeth and either using as is or hardening fully and repeat when blunt.

2) Concerning new ones...harden to maximum and temper back very little...and repeating when blunt...akin to 1)

3) Again..from new tools stock...harden to maximum and temper back to around RC50ish and then sharpen as necessary until no more...like saws...then retooth.

I have to choose an option for this iteration of this build...so I have chosen option 3)

The reason for this is that option 1) is out (for now)....leaving option 2 or 3 and I have chosen 3) for no other reason than others have had some success with this...I can always re-harden and go to option 2) if this fails.

There has some discussion on the decarburization (ruining of tool steel by rapid leeching of carbon) of the sharp edges rendering them soft forever.

To prevent this...and since I have used charcoal in the furnace before...and since Aaron rightly states that this could ruin the element...I have gone for the prophylactic approach of preventing any oxygen present in the furnace from getting to the steel.

But first I came up with this idea...






By wiring them together face to face...and since the teeth mesh together if I fire both at once...I am further minimizing the exposure of the teeth directly to the oxygen.....and I hope prevents warping of either since they will be trying to fight each other! (that's the theory anyway!)

It shows how accurate that DRO on the mill is!!

A "slip" or rather "mud pie" of clay and Borax was then applied...in two coats and allowed to dry each time so that I could see the silver glint and patch up where necessary...this is now hardening.

Some time ago I bought a PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller and SSR (solid state relay) from China for peanuts...so I thought I would test it out with a new thin K-Type thermocouple and control the kiln automatically...instead of switching it off and on manually for 15 minutes which is a real pain...






For those who are not familiar with industrial control devices...a PID will proportionally adjust the power getting to the heating element to keep it close to the desired temperature without much hysteresis or time lag. This stops it from constantly being under and over temperature caused by the slow reaction of the element.






As this electronics (box on the left showing it's SEVEN degrees out there BBBRRRR!)....is only capable of directly controlling up to 3A...an SSR or solid state relay is needed (white box on right with light on). This just allows more power as the PID controls this and the SSR then controls the power going to the kiln.

Chinese electronics has now allowed mere amateurs to have devices which were before only available on expensive kit.

So that's where we're up to at the moment....other things are going on in the workshop...so I hope to get this test batch of floats hardened and tempered this week....

Cheers

Jimi


----------



## swagman (5 Nov 2014)

http://www.thermometricscorp.com/thermocouple.html


----------



## jimi43 (5 Nov 2014)

swagman":3ar3y2c4 said:


> http://www.thermometricscorp.com/thermocouple.html



Yes Stewie...I'm using the thin fibre K type thermocouple...it's apparently less vulnerable to sulphur attack...we shall see! :mrgreen: 

Jimi


----------



## swagman (5 Nov 2014)

jimi43":13nntuoj said:


> swagman":13nntuoj said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.thermometricscorp.com/thermocouple.html
> ...



If the K type bombs out Jimi, you might be okay with the N type. 

Stewie;


----------



## Racers (5 Nov 2014)

I had one of those SSR's as a remote switching for a power amp, it worked well but didn't half come on with a bang.

Whats the rating of the kiln? you might need to screw the SSR to a heat sink.

Pete


----------



## jimi43 (5 Nov 2014)

Racers":2vmafb2y said:


> I had one of those SSR's as a remote switching for a power amp, it worked well but didn't half come on with a bang.
> 
> Whats the rating of the kiln? you might need to screw the SSR to a heat sink.
> 
> Pete



It's 1kW and is actually drawing 4.5A...so it's only running at 20% max.

I am waiting for an enclosure...and I will include a small heatsink...just in case.

Cheers mate

Jimi


----------



## AndyT (5 Nov 2014)

Well, one truth emerges loud and clear from this thread - it really is worth having a shed like Jim's which contains one of everything anyone might ever need! ;-)


----------



## jimi43 (5 Nov 2014)

AndyT":2r9cz03l said:


> Well, one truth emerges loud and clear from this thread - it really is worth having a shed like Jim's which contains one of everything anyone might ever need! ;-)



Steptoe's yard Andy....but as far as I know....I don't have a horse...

Yet..... :mrgreen: 

Jimi


----------



## Corneel (5 Nov 2014)

And now, cross your fingers and switch it on!


----------



## jimi43 (5 Nov 2014)

Corneel":hcowobrt said:


> And now, cross your fingers and switch it on!



Nah mate...this is kiddie stuff...now valve amps and transmitters would worry me these days though!


----------



## Cheshirechappie (5 Nov 2014)

The idea of strapping two floats together to avoid distortion is potentially brilliant! It might not work, but if it does - bingo!

Mind if I offer a couple of thoughts? It might pay to wire the two floats together far more thoroughly - one thing about metals with internal stresses is that if they want to move, they will, and it'll take quite a bit of restraint to stop them. Then, after quenching (which is when the internal stresses will develop) the floats will be soaked in quenchant, which will need removing before tempering. Taking the bindings off to clean them will allow any internal stresses to relieve as much as they can - the floats will move! Thus, don't unwire after heating and quenching; clean them up either by flashing the oil off with a flame or (preferable, perhaps) flush the oil off with a solvent, and allow to dry. Then temper in the kiln for as long as possible, and allow to cool in the kiln once the power is turned off. The extended time at tempering temperature may not be enough for a full, proper stress relief, but the longer it's held, the more it'll help.

Good luck!


----------



## jimi43 (5 Nov 2014)

Some very helpful tips there CC...as always...and each makes perfect sense...supported by the thoughts of Mr Cain too.

I did think of more binding....indeed if you watch Noel Liogier's excellent rasp making video...I think they prevent distortion by using huge clamp carriers....but they are water quenched....I anticipate oil quenched tool steel to be less but still significant.

Unfortunately....I thought all this after muck spreading...so rather than start again...I'll try this and see how we go.

Tempering will be at 500 until cold...I will just stick it back in the cooling kiln.

This should give me around RC50....if the gods are playing ball.

I hope the muck will stay around till last but I don't see it surviving quenching...but it should come out relatively clean....that's the plan!

Jimi


----------



## rxh (5 Nov 2014)

I think a dry run without the floats would be advisable to ensure the temperature is stable and doesn't fluctuate wildly due to controller instability  
PID controllers can be tricky to tune. The "D" function could be turned off on a loop like this and that would make it easier to get it adjusted for good control.


----------



## woodpig (5 Nov 2014)

Stainless Foil is another option when hardening.

http://www.hollinbrow.co.uk/hollinbrow/final.asp?id=87

Do a google, I'm sure I've seen it sold by the metre somewhere.


----------



## swagman (5 Nov 2014)

Hi Jimi. This may be helpful. 

Stewie;


http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=189731


----------



## jimi43 (6 Nov 2014)

Some really useful posts there guys so I will take them one at a time.

Richard...regarding PID tuning. I have the spec sheet and as you say...this can be rather tricky. Today I intend to try the auto-tune facility first to see how that copes with the slow lag of the kiln element...when I hardened the irons I've done (successfully)...I did it manually using the brain as a lag predictor and even using my poor processor( :mrgreen: ), I managed to keep the range between about +/- 5 degrees around the 800C mark...so that leads me to think that I can get this box of tricks to do at least as well....(maybe!  )...we shall see. Thanks for the tip on the "D Function"...I will read that bit again now.

Woodpig...I was trying to locate some stainless foil either 304 or 321 but to no avail. Aaron mentioned Turco Anti-scale being a brand name possibly available in the UK and I have found something called Knufoil too but neither seem to be available commercially...I'm still hunting! Anyone with any suggestions here..perhaps knife makers....shout out. This seems to be a very illusive product.

Stewie....superb link mate...and I like the guy's style...lots of great tips there and I love his warning...I have bookmarked that link. But he gets extensive scaling...I wonder how much sharper they would be without the decarburization which is obviously going to occur in the open kiln? 

Oh...and thanks mate...you have now got me thinking about rasps! Cheers! :wink: 

Jimi


----------



## woodpig (6 Nov 2014)

These work well on wood as well.







Can't lay my hands on one at the moment but they're used in car body repair shops.

http://www.kenteurope.com/uk/shop/viewf ... &type=Auto


----------



## woodpig (6 Nov 2014)

Not cheap but sold by the metre:

https://www.brisa.fi/portal/index.php?o ... th=156_330


----------



## swagman (6 Nov 2014)

Hi Jimi. Rob Streeper seems to be a quite knowledgeable guy, 

Here's another recent post Rob did on fitting a folded back on a backsaw. 

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=189765

Rob folds his own backs which is rather impressive.


Stewie;


----------



## Corneel (6 Nov 2014)

The problem with stainless foil, as far as I understand is that it slows you down too much. You must plunge it quickly in oil, and first peeling of the foil takes too much time. And dunking everything, foil and all into the oil, makes the transition for the steel too slow. Stanless foil is for air quenced steels.


----------



## jimi43 (6 Nov 2014)

AH...ok then...so I won't bother looking any further for it...I was wondering how it would affect quenching.

I'll stick to the clay.Borax for now and hope it sticks too!! :mrgreen: 

Off to test the PID. 

Cheers mate

Jim


----------



## woodpig (7 Nov 2014)

Corneel":3lser0vz said:


> Stanless foil is for air quenced steels.



No, not really. It's used on all kinds of steels. See the FAQ:

http://www.precisionbrand.com/FaqDetail ... egoryid=10

Plenty of knife makers use it as it's not difficult to get the blade out of the wrap if required.
The end of the "packet" is just snipped off and the blade slipped out.

But read the FAQ, quenching it in the wrap prevents scaling and if tightly wrapped before heating won't prevent fairly rapid quenching.
The best way though is to actually try it in your application before dismissing it.
It could save you an awful lot of clean up and it's not that expensive to give it a try.


----------



## jimi43 (7 Nov 2014)

woodpig":1lmt0c7j said:


> Corneel":1lmt0c7j said:
> 
> 
> > Stanless foil is for air quenced steels.
> ...



If I could find any I would!

So far I have to by a roll at £75...or import it from Canada or Finland....not exactly a cheap "consumable"....

I am most surprised at this and I am going in search of the knife makers to see what's afoot!

Jimi


----------



## jimi43 (19 Nov 2014)

Sorry guys...I've been rather busy of late with various projects I'm working on to cope with replacing the physical tasks I currently do such as hacksawing as it is getting more and more difficult to do these things healthwise.

So...where did we leave it...oh yes...the PID and the decarburisation issues.

Well...since I was unable to locate a suitable supply of stainless foil without remortgaging the house...I went for the dirty route...quite literally!!!






Ok!!! I'm never gonna make a potter so Clarice Cliff can rest easy in her grave....but it was all worth it in the end...read on!

This concoction which can only be described as "MUD" is seen drying here after a couple of slight "errors" on my part....not the least of which is that I am now the proud owner of most of the country's fire clay supply!!  

This stuff is so cheap that when I ordered some on eBay...I didn't look at the quantity and it was only when the truck pulled up at my house with a hoist did I realise that £20 get you an AWFUL LOT of the stuff. So anyone who wants a bag...feel free to just pay me the postage!! :mrgreen: 

Quite the opposite occurred with the Borax...where I seem to have bought the purest scientific version of DAZ I could find!  

But...never mind...the worst thing was convincing Annie that all this was in the aid of science and I needed to use the kitchen as I was just making a very special cake!! :? 8) 

So...to the PID or "accurate temperature control thingy" to make it more understandable....






Well give the Chinese their due..they make some cunning electrickery for very few dollars...it was amazingly easy to tune...not too much fiddling with the "d" variable thankfully...and it taught itself what 800 degrees celsius was and stayed there.

It stayed there within ONE DEGREE either side...so you can't wish for better than that. And the solid state relay (SSR) didn't even blink. Well...actually it DID blink...quite a bit...as it switched on and off frantically trying to keep up with the commands it was being sent but it performed effortlessly! So much so that I am building this into a box with a socket to keep my heater accurate for when I'm not using the kiln. I am actually considering using the kiln AS the heater...such was the toastiness of the workshop during and for many hours, AFTER this hardening malarky! :mrgreen: 

Armed with this total confidence temperature-wise....I popped the "cake" into the oven...(gas mark 10 for 15 minutes!)....






...where upon...in very short shrift...the fire clay lived up to it's name and looked like Hades itself! :mrgreen: 

After 15 minutes of cooking...I opened the door to the kiln...suitably attired in my "DIY PPE" which protected any part of my body I should have preferred not to be singed.....and with Annie standing by with a fire extinguisher...dunked it in the vegetable oil.

I have to say...since the last time I did this my recollection of the reaction of plunging a lump of steel at nigh on 1000 degrees into cold liquid was not quite as vivid as this attempt!! :shock: 






I guess the fire clay made it more....um...explosive!! 

This "after" shot makes it look as if I'm calm...this is because it was a little after the "missing" picture. Missing because Annie was frantically trying to remember how to get the seal off the fire extinguisher!!! :mrgreen: 

Ok...it wasn't quite "dangerous" but it was...um...surprising. The fire clay doesn't like being subjected to that much shock so it left the steel it was adhering to...with a bit of...shall we say...kinetic energy! :lol: 

Which was handy because it saved me from chipping it all off afterwards...the only bits left were the ones the reinforcement of the wires....






But was all this preparation a success though!? Darn right it was! 8) 

As can be seen...no warpage (?)....no separation of the wires...and no decarburization!! Success indeed! :wink: 

Armed with this renewed confidence I then made my mistake. Instead of calmly cleaning off the oil and tempering it....I put it back in the kiln...at the prescribed higher tempering temperature and shut the door.

Ordinarily for plane irons I would shove it in the domestic oven after the family roast...which is off and cooling. This...is BELOW the flashpoint of vegetable oil.

UNFORTUNATELY.....500C ISN'T! :shock: 






By this time...Annie had retired scratching her head...to the house...and taking the fire extinguisher with her!! 

I will say that blowing on flaming steel frantically does eventually work however! #-o 

Sadly...burnt vegetable oil on metal...as every housewife knows..stains rather badly...






.....which is rather a shame...but they are prototypes and these things happen!  

So to the long awaited testing.

I grabbed the nearest spare handle I could find which I just knew I had a use for when I made it all those years ago from some scrap lilac from MAC Timbers.






...bit of beech...clamped to my new bench (more on that later!)....and off we go...






SUCCESS!!! :mrgreen: 

Then on to a "bit of boxwood"....(close your eyes if you don't like to see rare breeds being sacrificed in the name of science!!!)....






Success again. (you may get the impression here that I am just a tad pleased after all this "theory"!!)

The great thing is you can hog the stock off really fast but if you lay off the pressure to a gently stroking action...the surface (left in the above picture) becomes really smooth.

So...I guess I ought to sharpen it!! :mrgreen: 

Using Switzerland's "nearly finest (without going overdrawn) steel....a BAHCO "SWISS MADE" (as opposed to no name "SWISS CHEESE") three-square needle file...






...I set about the job in the same way as you would tickle a saw...for effectively that is what a float is...a rather large kerfed "saw".






Technical note here...I don't actually file like this...but I had to hold the camera with the other hand! :mrgreen: 

After a surprisingly short time (one episode of "Murder She Wrote")....it was done....






So...now to test the real thing....did it work?






...hell yes....and this is across the grain English boxwood!






I'm rather glad that Toby "coerced" me into making one of these things and I've ordered one of Matthew's finest Holtzapffel style handles just to celebrate! 8) 

To say that it's been a "learning experience" is probably an understatement. I had to scrape to the bottom of the grey cells to remember metalwork, metallurgy, chemistry, electronics, woodworking and bravery....not to mention testing of sanity but it was fun.

Would I do it again...

NO! But feel free to copy or avoid any of this experience at your leisure!

Now...Toby...your findings? :wink: 

Cheers

Jimi

*DISCLAIMER: THERE ARE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TECHNIQUES INVOLVED IN THIS PROJECT WHICH COULD RESULT IN INJURY. DO NOT TRY ANYTHING I HAVE DESCRIBED UNLESS YOU ARE TOTALLY CONFIDENT YOU CAN DO SO SAFELY OR ARE CLINICALLY INSANE. REMEMBER...THERE IS NO MORE IMPORTANT SAFETY ITEMS THAN WEARING SAFETY GLASSES! CONSIDER YOURSELF WELL AND TRULY WARNED!! *


----------



## Racers (19 Nov 2014)

Nicely done Jimi, they look the dogs dangly bits.

Pete


----------



## Corneel (19 Nov 2014)

Great story Jimi!

And did they turn out straight?


----------



## jimi43 (19 Nov 2014)

Cheers Pete...a bit chuffed is an understatement...probably cheaper to buy one though! :mrgreen: 

Yes Corneel...it seems the trick of mating them opposing each other solved the problem and surprisingly..the wire held and didn't melt either..which I thought it might.

No idea what the wire is made of and I was thinking of using stainless wire to be sure but it was just a bit of wire stripped from some armoured cable..the galvanized stuff.

That's the bit that I am most pleased about...the "eureka moment"!

Jimi


----------



## Sheffield Tony (19 Nov 2014)

jimi43":1tk4ekqx said:


> No idea what the wire is made of and I was thinking of using stainless wire to be sure but it was just a bit of wire stripped from some armoured cable..the galvanized stuff.
> Jimi



"SWA" = *Steel* Wire Armoured cable. So as likely to melt as the floats themselves.

Nice job. Quenching can get quite exciting can't it ?


----------



## Sheffield Tony (19 Nov 2014)

Racers":2984ydhy said:


> Nicely done Jimi, they look the dogs dangly bits.
> 
> Pete



Looking at the photos, it seems that for once the dog kept its dangly bits well out of the way ! Smart move.


----------



## Harbo (19 Nov 2014)

Well done Jimi - you are very brave!
I think I would have built a block wall protection shield around it? 

I have to harden some clock arbors and pinions by protecting with wrapping wire and I'm not looking forward to that!?
No mud though, so no explosions I hope?

Rod


----------



## AndyT (19 Nov 2014)

Brilliant!

I hope the hot oil didn't crack the door of your kiln...







... but maybe you could mend it with a teaspoon or two of that fireclay?

I also hope you will be bringing these along for us all to admire - and see if they work on iron-hard holly!


----------



## Cheshirechappie (19 Nov 2014)

Nice one, Jimi! 

The clock and watch making fraternity use a tempering technique of 'flaming off' the hardening quench oil, and it works well. Mind you, their workpieces are usually only an inch or so long, and a few millimetres in diameter!

It will be interesting to see how long the edge lasts on the floats. My guess is quite a long time.


----------



## n0legs (19 Nov 2014)

woodpig":3fk1o4wj said:


> These work well on wood as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Try here :-
http://www.power-tec.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=0&item=7428


----------



## jimi43 (20 Nov 2014)

In my experience....the surform and the file are significantly different to the float.

The float...which is specifically made to work on plane making in the throats and other difficult to work apertures...relies on the row of burrs which are created from sharpening...the most important of which is the first "tooth".

This action is akin to a row of cabinet scrapers, one following the other in their removal of a very fine layer of wood in a flat fashion. 

Other tools work by tilting the face to present the teeth in more of a planing action.

I think I'm right about this but I bow to more expert wooden plane makers amongst us.

In the interest of my health and safety, and having proven the operation of the Heath Robinson PID setup...I decided it was time to put it all away safely...






That's better!!!

Certainly, I am now encouraged to use this little kiln more often now that I know I can regulate the temperature automatically without having to manually switch it on and off..which exhibited a fairly large hysteresis of at least +/- 10 degrees instead of +/- 1 degree celsius which the PID is capable of.

I also received a Holtzapffel pattern Walnut handle from Matthew at Workshop Heaven....






...which I think is one of the most attractive of all handle shapes ever and works well with the float shape...






And I seem to have bought a few of these...I suppose I had better make some more float shapes now...seems rude not to! :mrgreen: 






Toby has the other float...which he is currently testing and he will post an update on his findings later.

Jimi


----------



## AndyT (20 Nov 2014)

Here's a little nudge for you Jim - some more styles of floats to go with those empty handles:






You know you want to! :wink:


----------



## jimi43 (21 Nov 2014)

Cheers Andy!!! :mrgreen: 

I reckon that most of the thin "saw" type ones can be done in blocks...stacked and clamped together so I can do a few at a time...different thicknesses and also the same applies to the hardening...all wired together and then fire clay over the top.

Also...got a few "spoonfuls" of fire clay as you suggested and the two halves of the door bricks are now setting in the kitchen...not sure it's going to work..I think I need special fire brick cement but really it doesn't affect the overall function of the kiln...it's such a small crack and the mica window is huge by comparison.

Still...we shall see.

I guess I shall be doing quite a bit of hardening to "fill the handles" in the coming months. I think if I plan it right...I can do it on cold days and save on heating!! :mrgreen: 

I shall be bringing the float along with the panel plane to MAC Timbers...really looking forward to the day...

Cheers mate

Jimi


----------



## DMF (21 Nov 2014)

Hi,

apologies for not having the time to say thanks for some great tool posts lately (as per normal!) but re hot things I have spotted an ad that may interest you?

"One sitter kiln - old but working 
One wired in kiln - not currently working but someone who is handy could get it going 
Second one size of washing machine approximately 
First one about half that size"

They sound fun! Free and near me if you want I will see if there going still / take pics / secure. If I can rub some brain cells together you may have a pm soon with link.

Dean.


----------



## jimi43 (21 Nov 2014)

Hi Dean.

WOW...sounds like a plan though the size sounds like they are probably potter's kilns.

I may be wrong but I think these are at a lower temperature than is needed for firing enamels hence steel hardening.

A bit of sleuthing though would not go amiss...and any information you can glean would be most appreciated.

Even if I don't take up the idea..there are those out there who might!

Let me know.

Andy...it didn't work mate...






It looked fine...I left it to "harden" all night with some damp tissue over it so it didn't dry out too fast and crack but there was simply no adhesion whatever.

I had a feeling that I could only use this stuff for moulding...I think there are special cements for fixing and filling...so going off to explore that.

Another idea I had was to get some of that fibreglass kiln liner and cut it to that shape and sandwich it behind the broken pieces thus thermally bridging the crack!

Plan B!

I will let you know how this works out..these things are always handy to know later down the line.

Jimi


----------



## Sheffield Tony (21 Nov 2014)

It is a bit of an odd shape so maybe not, but I was wondering if the vermiculite board used in wood stoves could be used for this - it can be cut and shaped fairly easily.


----------



## jimi43 (21 Nov 2014)

Sheffield Tony":qa7akvbx said:


> It is a bit of an odd shape so maybe not, but I was wondering if the vermiculite board used in wood stoves could be used for this - it can be cut and shaped fairly easily.



I was thinking the same Tony...and that will be PLAN C....but for the moment...I ordered some of this stuff...

ELECTRIC KILN REPAIR THERMAL BLANKET MATERIAL

....and I think if I cut an oval...with the correct aperture and lay this down first..then screw the two halves of the broken door against it...... the heat barrier will be whole again.

Interestingly when I was looking for this..there are quite a few of these little kilns knocking about for sale under £300 and some in need of TLC which would suit too...so if anyone is looking for one...that seems to be the place to start.

Jim


----------



## tobytools (21 Nov 2014)

Ok, sorry took so long to get back with my review. I had a bit to do to get this ready (make handle and sharpen) I also had to have a good play with the float before I could comment, not testing it on scrap bits of wood that Ive chopped and chewed up but something that is a working progress.. More on that in a second. 
Firstly... Thanks jim for being so kind as to give me this tool, I've been going on about floats for far too long 
As stated I received a parcel that contained the float and a Swiss triangle file, thanks again jim. 
First impression of the tool where that of a kid a Xmas when he get that Xbox or play station for the first time, sad I know! Not having a spare handle about I made one. Next I selected holm oak and used copper pipe as the ferrel but it's not a handle making thread so I won't keep on, needless to say I have some way to go yet.

Once handled, I couldn't resist and gave it a go... It worked out of the box. Now I know that can't be said about a lot of tools these days so it passed the second test. 
Moving onto the sharpening, usually a daunting task but when the triangle file just sits in the teeth gully, a consistent cutting edge is easily achieved. The tempering and hardening are just right, not too hard so that I would spend years sharpening and not too soft that it can't hold an edge... The perfect balance or what I would consider perfect in regards to the tool and it's intended uses. 
Once the sharpening was done I began to use it for it's intended purpose (making a plane) (wedge). It will in due time be used to level the beds and such. 
As you can see it leaves a smooth and flawless finish; abrasives will not need to be used. The wood is beech so average on the hardness and it worked as you would expect being a hand made tool from someone who cares about what he's doing... 
This is about as far as I've got with it but as I progress in my plane making you will be seeing more and more of it.
I can't believe I have done woodwork without these types of tool until now..


----------



## jimi43 (21 Nov 2014)

Thanks for the review Toby...much appreciated and nice to see it being used for the job it was intended...making planes.

Now we just need to make the other types! :mrgreen: 

If anyone wants to read the whole story in one place I have also updated my blog...

HERE

Thanks again Toby...star job and great handle too! =D> 

Jimi


----------



## Phil Pascoe (21 Nov 2014)

Potters kilns run at 1300c - 1400c iirc.


----------



## G S Haydon (21 Nov 2014)

=D> Jim, Toby =D> . I have followed the progress and it's been great. Your blog post was a great read Jim, choice PPE to boot!


----------



## jimi43 (22 Nov 2014)

phil.p":28kx0974 said:


> Potters kilns run at 1300c - 1400c iirc.



Cheers for the clarification Phil.

Sadly the kilns have been taken but that was to be expected....but at least I know that they are candidates now.


Jimi


----------



## jimi43 (22 Nov 2014)

G S Haydon":gw21asy8 said:


> =D> Jim, Toby =D> . I have followed the progress and it's been great. Your blog post was a great read Jim, choice PPE to boot!



Thanks Graham and thanks for the proof reading too!

Appreciated.

Jimi


----------



## G S Haydon (22 Nov 2014)

Ha! Jim, you learned that I was not best suited to that task


----------



## jimi43 (22 Nov 2014)

G S Haydon":zza0e8cz said:


> Ha! Jim, you learned that I was not best suited to that task



Codd's Wallop Graham!!! I have always been in awe of your eloquence! (and other large animals!!) :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Seriously appreciated your help mate! =D> 

Jimi


----------



## Harbo (22 Nov 2014)

Be careful of potter's kilns - they are quite large for tool making and consume an awful lot of power!
I thought about borrowing a friend's one until they warned me about how much each "burn" costs and only really economic if you fill it up with stuff?

Rod


----------



## jimi43 (22 Nov 2014)

Harbo":15k9hmof said:


> Be careful of potter's kilns - they are quite large for tool making and consume an awful lot of power!
> I thought about borrowing a friend's one until they warned me about how much each "burn" costs and only really economic if you fill it up with stuff?
> 
> Rod



Indeed Rod...I think like other appliances...they are getting more efficient but they are still power thirsty.

This little one runs about 1kW so not too bad for a short run....but I could do with a deeper one.

Cheers

Jim


----------



## AndyT (25 Nov 2014)

I see that Jim's international reputation is spreading again...http://wkfinetools.com/contrib/HendricksJ/floats/floatMaking-01.asp

What's next? A blog at a woodwork magazine? :-" 
A pay-per-view scheme for the hand tools forum? :lol: 

Maybe not that second one, but it's good to see talent getting out and about again. Well done Jim.

=D> =D>


----------



## G S Haydon (25 Nov 2014)

I'll Echo that Andy, high calibre stuff from Jim yet again.


----------



## lanemaux (26 Nov 2014)

Excellent work amigo mio , AGAIN. Thoroughly enjoyed all aspects vicariously from my puter / escape machine. As always my respect just keeps swelling for the craftsmanship (and cool bootfair toys) on display . . . Bravo!


----------

