# Who else thinks this?



## Spectric (26 Jun 2021)

There is way to much coverage of people kicking a ball around on Tv at the moment and it is the euro's, has no one told them about brexit? Yes it is one of my pet hates, I hate football and avoid like it is covid. Who else thinks the same or is everyone stuck watching them kicking a ball around, then running around pretending to be an aeroplane that then has undercarriage failure.


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Jun 2021)

Bit like 2 weeks of tennis in normal times - peope in skimpy white clothes waving bats watched by people eating strawberries. Less than rivetting viewing in my book.


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## Spectric (26 Jun 2021)

It can be comical watching the syncronous head swiveling, I think that some birds perform a similiar ritual during pre mating.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jun 2021)

I don't understand why TV planners seem to think the whole Country is interested in football - both ITV and the BBC have more than one channel, so why don't they air all the football they wish on a secondary channel?
Personally, I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes than watch soccer. Wrong shaped ball.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jun 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Bit like 2 weeks of tennis in normal times - peope in skimpy white clothes waving bats watched by people eating strawberries. Less than rivetting viewing in my book.


At least we get only two weeks of saturation tennis, we're not force fed it every week.


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## doctor Bob (26 Jun 2021)

I think it's fantastic.


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## novocaine (26 Jun 2021)

I love it. Not because i like football,but because whilst everyone is in the pub or at home watching 22 millionaires kick a bag of air around the roads are empty. 
Olympics soon. That is one im actually looking forward too.


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## Cabinetman (26 Jun 2021)

Never seen the point of sport full stop, neither playing or watching but football has to be the worst.


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## Chippyjoe (26 Jun 2021)

Not enough on normal tv in my opinion.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jun 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Never seen the point of sport full stop, neither playing or watching but football has to be the worst.


Yeah ........... I managed even the London Olympics without watching more that one minute at a time of it - and that was too much.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jun 2021)

Never mind - Lions V Japan tomorrow, channel 4.


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jun 2021)

Tour de France just started so that’s my annual sports intake taken care of. At least with the football it looks like it’s all going to be over very soon.


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## novocaine (26 Jun 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Tour de France just started so that’s my annual sports intake taken care of. At least with the football it looks like it’s all going to be over very soon.


Cav's riding. So it should be good.


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## Ollie78 (26 Jun 2021)

I have no interest in the football myself, I think it brings out a strange partisan tribalism based on just randomly liking a team because you just decided to when you were 7 or because your grandad likes them. Or a sort of nationalism of the worst kind. 
I do realise that a great percentage of the country really love it though, so let them have it on for 2 weeks.
I do like the Olympics . I realise I am the odd one out but when I watch sport I don't care who wins before the event starts, I just like to see what happens and people doing amazing things.


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## Southdownswolf (27 Jun 2021)

Love it, they should have more of it on.


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## boggy (27 Jun 2021)

I would like to make the same complaint to the BBC Radio 4 coverage of cricket. This bizarre sport is declining in popularity as it is too complicated and takes too long. Who can imagine a sport which can be played for 5 days and not have a definitive result? Fortunately I have an internet radio so I can tune into the normal Radio 4 output, but in the workshop this does not apply.


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## dzj (27 Jun 2021)

If it was just about the football, I'd say it's your time, spend it as you please.
Unfortunately, all too often it is a gateway for nationalism of all kinds.
A nasty business that brings out the worst in people.


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## The Chiller (27 Jun 2021)

Moto GP, World Superbikes, British Superbikes, IOM TT. Rugby.


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## Pineapple (27 Jun 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Never seen the point of sport full stop, neither playing or watching but football has to be the worst.


I aggree. - If the people who love competetive exercise used their energy on Any Constructive Pursuit, such as building adventure playgrounds or improving access arrangements for the disabled, the world would be a much better place.
The main reason for all of the (excess) interest in sport, as far as I can see, is gambling - which is, after all, a Vice !


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## clogs (27 Jun 2021)

MY TWO PENCE WORTH.....
there's only one game that uses ball's that done in private,,,but not for some....hahaha.....
when the over paid footballers etc start useing clubs with nails in during the game, I'll start watching...


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## Ithica (27 Jun 2021)

Im not sure if you are being ironic or even sarcastic - the World Adventure Playground Building Championships, the Improved Access for Disabled Premiership, just teasing. Competitive exercise (sport) is a natural function of mankind in that it caters for and satisfies Man's tribal instincts. There has never been a society without this element of competition either on a personal level (Alpha dog etc) or on a group level the ultimate expression of which is going to war. Im afraid we (Mankind) are stuck with this and the dreadful BBC and the market operator ITV are only reflecting their viewer research. Allez Les Bleus, whilst Southgate continues to select Kane, I mean, what is he for?


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## AFFF (27 Jun 2021)

Football? Rather watch paint dry (far more interesting) Rugby? Bring it on!


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2021)

Didn't know there was any football on but I never watch it anyway.
Watching day 1 Tour de France highlights - exciting stuff!


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## Rorschach (27 Jun 2021)

I hate sport, all sports, but I don't begrudge others enjoying it. I guess some of that comes from the fact that I don't have a TV so it's not stopping me watching shows I enjoy, maybe I would feel different if it did, I certainly got annoyed as a child but then we didn't have as many channels either so it had a proportionally bigger impact on the schedule I guess.

I do get annoyed at the silly amount of money spent on it all, but that's the fault of the fans really.


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## glenfield2 (27 Jun 2021)

I’d rather watch football than Eastenders, Coronation Street, The One Show and all the other usual early evening junk. 
But, as they say, other channels are available - more than ever these days - so it’s a pretty tired old grumble really.


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## Jonzjob (27 Jun 2021)

I record all of the football games, along with all of the soaps. Lovely stuff.

That way I can play them back when we go out and miss them twice!

22 over paid pre-madonas racing round a pitch and then begging the 1/2 wit crown who have paid megabucks to watch to worshop them for what they are over paid to do.

Not that I dislike football you understand.

When we lived in France, le Tour (not la Tour, that the French copy of Blackpool Tower in Paris) staged through Carcassonne several times. Just 10 or so Km from us and we went and watched the stage start a couple of times and a couple of 'run throughs' in local towns. Not that is quite a spectacle!

The preceeding 'Caravan', all the advertising vehicles has to be seen to be believed! This le Tour going through Trebes, Aude in 2011












Oh, there were some cyclists too. In fact lots and they were dammed quick!






The 'Caravan' took about 45 minutes, the bikes, about 45 seconds, but what an atmosphere!


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## paulrbarnard (27 Jun 2021)

Jonzjob said:


> I record all of the football games, along with all of the soaps. Lovely stuff.
> 
> That way I can play them back when we go out and miss them twice!
> 
> ...


Watching something like the Tour live is a bit of an anticlimax for me. It’s over way too quick. I love the TV coverage and usually watch live.


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

I can understand how TV Soap and and Quiz programme addicts might feel aggrieved with their viewing plans being disrupted. 
Viewing habits have changed and a lot of people use streaming services or watch recording at a time that suits them.

It is the national sport. It used to be the working man's game until money took over. Money has forced football off the free channels. 

I'm glad that those that can't afford expensive Sky, BT or Virgin Media packages and can't afford to visit the pub can get to watch the games at no extra cost.

Olympics this year, World Cup next year, Rugby World Cup 2023. Get ready for more viewing disruption. Or maybe watch your soaps and quizzes on catch up.


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Watching something like the Tour live is a bit of an anticlimax for me. It’s over way too quick. I love the TV coverage and usually watch live.



Bit like F1 - far better (and cheaper) viewed on TV


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## Daniel2 (27 Jun 2021)

They can put whatever they like on the tv.
I don't watch it.


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2021)

Another thing about Tour de France is the landscape - some marvellous places en route - some familiar, have cycled a lot in France. Keep wishing I was there pedalling along to the next aire de picnic, or bar for a cold beer in the shade. Or whooshing down the other side of a pass. Paradise!


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## Jonm (27 Jun 2021)

Some years ago I purchased a Kango hammer on eBay, the auction ended at about the same time as Rooney scored for England. It went cheap.


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## plum60 (27 Jun 2021)

dzj said:


> If it was just about the football, I'd say it's your time, spend it as you please.
> Unfortunately, all too often it is a gateway for nationalism of all kinds.
> A nasty business that brings out the worst in people.


I agree it's a bedrock for nationalistic behaviours we see so much racist behaviour amongst fans which I always think is a home goal because they tend to want the best team so obviously they recruit best players from around the world who they then chant racist abuse at and boo when they are black and do something they don't like. All a bit low level ( and accepted as part of the game!) in the end and the money aspect of the game is whole new debate.


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## Cirks (27 Jun 2021)

Not a single minute of the Euros being watched by me. Can’t stand the acting and tribalism. Anyone wanting a great advert for sport and brilliant contests only need to hav3 watched the rugby premiership semi-finals and final. Stunning games and not one faked injury


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## Stuart Moffat (27 Jun 2021)

Might as well rename BBC to Sports channel at the moment, with football, and bat and ball x 2 (cricket and tennis) which means even the new at 10 no longer happens at 10. I am becoming a reluctant Netflix and Amazon user.


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## Warferret45 (27 Jun 2021)

'There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.' - Ernest Hemingway


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

plum60 said:


> I agree it's a bedrock for nationalistic behaviours we see so much racist behaviour amongst fans which I always think is a home goal because they tend to want the best team so obviously they recruit best players from around the world who they then chant racist abuse at and boo when they are black and do something they don't like. All a bit low level ( and accepted as part of the game!) in the end and the money aspect of the game is whole new debate.


There is undoubtedly a very small number of troublemakers at most football clubs and typically the same people that follow England to tournaments. They are a tiny but vociferous minority.

Sadly you’re unfairly tarring all supporters with the same brush.

I’ve followed England to tournaments abroad a few times and I can tell you that my friends and I have had wonderful, memorable experiences every time.


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## Selwyn (27 Jun 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Never seen the point of sport full stop, neither playing or watching but football has to be the worst.



Er, it keeps you fit...


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

Warferret45 said:


> 'There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely Ed games.' - Ernest Hemingway


Good quote in its time perhaps, but not sure it has aged well.

Motor racing is far far safer today and always down to having the best equipment.

Bullfighting is somewhat one sided. How many bulls win?

Mountaineering - with enough money and decent fitness you can climb Everest.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2021)

Glitch said:


> Olympics this year, World Cup next year, Rugby World Cup 2023. Get ready for more viewing disruption. Or maybe watch your soaps and quizzes on catch up.



That's the problem - if we don't like football we can't watch things on catch up as they aren't shown in the first place. (I doubt the Olympics will get the coverage of the football, and the rugby certainly won't.)


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Never seen the point of sport full stop, neither playing or watching but football has to be the worst.


it's quite good harmless fun kicking/batting a ball about and things like that. I don't see the point of watching somebody else doing it though - what a waste of time!


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## Ithica (27 Jun 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> They can put whatever they like on the tv.
> I don't watch it.


But it watches you, whether you like it or not.


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## NikNak (27 Jun 2021)

I'm no big sports fan but i don't mind watching 'big' matches, the FA Cup, World Cup, Wimbledon Final etc. but can someone please explain.... we send a GB team to the Olympics but football is done as separate nations unghh..??


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

Not sure if they’ve cut back on programme production. Had an hour each of Corrie and Emmerdale recently (I don’t watch them) 

BBC usually have comprehensive Olympic coverage - must be more hours than footie.

Rugby World Cup will surely get coverage of every game but nowhere near as popular as football. I must learn the rules before I go to France.


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

Jacob said:


> it's quite good harmless fun kicking/batting a ball about and things like that. I don't see the point of watching somebody else doing it though - what a waste of time!



Same with art 🖼
Why visit a gallery to admire the skill of painters when I can draw stick men and a house at home.

Same with music. Why watch you favourite band when you can tap out a rhythm at home with your foot


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2021)

Glitch said:


> Same with art 🖼
> Why visit a gallery to admire the skill of painters when I can draw stick men and a house at home.
> 
> Same with music. Why watch you favourite band when you can tap out a rhythm at home with your foot


Well actually there's a lot to be said for having a go yourself instead of assuming these things are just for the supremely talented and over-paid few.
Start with stick men and houses by all means, if that's what turns you on!


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## Ithica (27 Jun 2021)

Glitch said:


> Good quote in its time perhaps, but not sure it has aged well.
> 
> Motor racing is far far safer today and always down to having the best equipment.
> 
> ...


Very well put, words written by a man who later blew his brains out continuing the family tradition (his father and later Margaux). He lived a life in fear of his repressed homosexuality (thank goodness that fear has dwindled to almost nothing today) and so became the false epitome of 'manhood'. Bullfighting? One man stabbing an animal to death. Motor racing? Bernie Ecclsotone and Lewis Hamilton. Mountaineering? The days of Mallory are far gone, with enough Sherpas to lug your technology up a mountain. Id far rather watch Cheese Rolling down Coopers Hill. What counts today is the courage of your convictions. Simple.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Read the thread, never realised there were so many spiteful oddballs on here. Some really strange comments.


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## Daniel2 (27 Jun 2021)

Ithica said:


> But it watches you, whether you like it or not.



You're not helping my paranoia !


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## Noel (27 Jun 2021)




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## stuart little (27 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I don't understand why TV planners seem to think the whole Country is interested in football - both ITV and the BBC have more than one channel, so why don't they air all the football they wish on a secondary channel?
> Personally, I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes than watch soccer. Wrong shaped ball.


I prefer watching submarine racing!


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

She'll get more than the 15 minutes of fame she was after, when they track her down.



Noel said:


>


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## plum60 (27 Jun 2021)

Stuart Moffat said:


> Might as well rename BBC to Sports channel at the moment, with football, and bat and ball x 2 (cricket and tennis) which means even the new at 10 no longer happens at 10. I am becoming a reluctant Netflix and Amazon user.


The BBC has let proper journalism slip down quite a bit in the last year or two. I hear the headlines then switch to Aljazeera to get a world view and a more rounded view of UK news from around the globe to get a truer picture of whats going on. They don't dedicate a huge amount of time on sport. It's interesting what you can learn from a news channel that focuses on news.


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## TFrench (27 Jun 2021)

This is why there is YouTube. Don't complain about what's on telly because there are so many options now to avoid it.


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## Barlow (27 Jun 2021)

Football - the grubby game.


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## ajsimmo (27 Jun 2021)

Gordon Bennett, what a bunch of grumpy old men this thread has in its comments. Fair enough, if you don't like sport, do what you do like, but live and let live.

If people have a passion for something, be it sport, films, reading, classical music, morris dancing or even Eastenders, then good luck to them. I'm glad they're passionate about something.

Enjoy whatever you enjoy.

Nuff said.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Jacob said:


> it's quite good harmless fun kicking/batting a ball about and things like that. I don't see the point of watching somebody else doing it though - what a waste of time!



I love doing both, playing (im 56 so getting harder) and watching, would have loved to do it for a living.

There is nothing quite like being at a live sporting event, I'd take it all day long over hunting around a wood yard.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2021)

[QUOTE="ajsimmo, post: 1488809, member: 34526"
If people have a passion for something, be it sport, films, reading, classical music, morris dancing or even Eastenders, then good luck to them. I'm glad they're passionate about something.
Nuff said.
[/QUOTE]

Certainly. But excepting sport none of them expect other people's schedules altered to suit them.


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## whatknot (27 Jun 2021)

I confess I found this thread hilarious 

Some of the comments ? well what can you say ;-) 

Its quite simple folks, if you don't like something, be it sport or the soaps or whatever else 

*don't watch them* 

The possibilities are endless for other things to do, why waste time on something you don't like?

As to tribalism, if it wasn't for football, it would be something else, thats humans for you, they like to argue and fight 
(very often over something they can have no effect on and really shouldn't be concerned with)


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

> Certainly. But excepting sport none of them expect other people's schedules altered to suit them.




you've known about it for 5 years, could you not have planned an alternative watch. I accept soaps are on 2 times a night every night, can you not accept football every few years?


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

I'm also guilty of paying for sky sports, BT sports and amazon prime for the sport.


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## Ithica (27 Jun 2021)

The point about sport on TV is not so much the sport itself or the participating individuals expecting coverage - its about the stations market research that plots the schedules. BBC and Gazza Linacre apparently are hugely popular and with ITV its simply advertising revenues. Presumably ITV wouldn't screen Love Island unless it brought in huge advertising revenues?


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> you've known about it for 5 years, could you not have planned an alternative watch. I accept soaps are on 2 times a night every night, can you not accept football every few years?


Why not put sport on BBC2/4 and ITV2/3 It wouldn't make any difference to the people who watch it. Leave everyone else alone. Incidentally, that goes for cricket, tennis, rugby, athletics etc.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why not put sport on BBC2/4 and ITV2/3 It wouldn't make any difference to the people who watch it. Leave everyone else alone. Incidentally, that goes for cricket, tennis, rugby, athletics etc.



I think a lot more people like sport than you imagine, I think you are the minority. A bunch of woodworkers is not a cross section of society


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## Terry - Somerset (27 Jun 2021)

Cricket is the game. Not 20:20 which is just a case of brutalising a ball with a bat, but proper crricket - test or county games.

It has tactics, strategy, tedium and excitement. Watching a match for a day is an opportunity to have a couple of beers, chat to adjacent spectators, read a newspaper when tedium exceeds thrill levels. It is a social experince, not combat.

Many years ago I used to play occassionally. Rubbish at the game but the team met in a pub at lunchtime, pie and pint. Get to ground, start game, after a couple of hours have a "proper tea". Finish the game (result largely unimportant) as pubs open. Couple of pints, then go for curry.

Fresh air, sociable, moderate exercise - what's not to like!


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## RobinBHM (27 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I think a lot more people like sport than you imagine, I think you are the minority. A bunch of woodworkers is not a cross section of society


I think its a shame free to view terrestrial TV has lost so much of the sports -I think think sport should be available to watch for free for everybody.

although I hardly watch any sports myself TBH -but I do love it when I do.


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## RobinBHM (27 Jun 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Fresh air, sociable, moderate exercise - what's not to like!



Nothing can top a sport which stops for afternoon tea 

years ago I used to be involved with village cricket Sunday seconds -Ive seen fielders take their pint out with them...


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

I understand the concept of being none sporting, as a kid at school some kids hated PE and I suppose that carries on into adult life. 
But I don't understand the selfishness, I don't care about soaps, or these programmes where they repair and do stuff up, but I don't want them moved to other lesser channels, I just watch something else or do something else. I don't whinge about people wanting to watch a bike being repaired, why would you.
Everybody should be catered for.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Nothing can top a sport which stops for afternoon tea
> 
> years ago I used to be involved with village cricket Sunday seconds -Ive seen fielders take their pint out with them...



Sunday league football is a classic example of unhealthy men with no talent playing a game beyond their ability. There were always one nutter per side who's sole ambition was to inflict injury. Usually it was the fat bloke warming up with a fag and a hangover.


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## Glitch (27 Jun 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Cricket is the game. Not 20:20 which is just a case of brutalising a ball with a bat, but proper crricket - test or county games.
> 
> It has tactics, strategy, tedium and excitement. Watching a match for a day is an opportunity to have a couple of beers, chat to adjacent spectators, read a newspaper when tedium exceeds thrill levels. It is a social experince, not combat.
> 
> ...


Same for me. Loved playing social cricket and enjoy watching England  
Never got into watching county cricket though other than the occasional 20/20 thrash.

Having played and occasionally faced a good bowler you appreciate the vast difference between the club player and the pro. Individual battle between bowler and batsman but still a team game.


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## RobinBHM (27 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Usually it was the fat bloke warming up with a fag and a hangover.


I hadnt realised youve seen me play footie


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Jacob said:


> it's quite good harmless fun kicking/batting a ball about and things like that. I don't see the point of watching somebody else doing it though - what a waste of time!



That's quite a statement, given your watching of the tour.


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## Ithica (27 Jun 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Nothing can top a sport which stops for afternoon tea
> 
> years ago I used to be involved with village cricket Sunday seconds -Ive seen fielders take their pint out with them...


On refreshments during the game, it is said that in WW2 during the North African campaign, German and Italian soldiers were confused and intimidated by the fact that, in the midst of battle, British tank crews would stop and brew up (tea) alongside the tank. No other Allied tank crews did this.


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## Ithica (27 Jun 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Cricket is the game. Not 20:20 which is just a case of brutalising a ball with a bat, but proper crricket - test or county games.
> 
> It has tactics, strategy, tedium and excitement. Watching a match for a day is an opportunity to have a couple of beers, chat to adjacent spectators, read a newspaper when tedium exceeds thrill levels. It is a social experince, not combat.
> 
> ...


Agree Terry. Now in France but I supported Somerset (lived just over the border near Bampton). I was too a rubbish player and I don't think there is any cricket, anywhere in France but I still go to London to watch games. The authority are doing their best to make the game more popular, 20/20 as you say and 100 but nothing can beat a test match, hopefully of 5 days.


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## Blackswanwood (27 Jun 2021)

I’ve watched every game of the Euros - absolutely loving it and I also cannot wait to be able to get back to watching football live. The atmosphere, emotion and humour of a live football game is just brilliant.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> The atmosphere, emotion and humour of a live football game is just brilliant.



This absolutely


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I think a lot more people like sport than you imagine, I think you are the minority. A bunch of woodworkers is not a cross section of society


Nor is a bunch of football watchers.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> The atmosphere, emotion and humour of a live football game is just brilliant.


Not if you detest football it's not.


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## Jameshow (27 Jun 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Tour de France just started so that’s my annual sports intake taken care of. At least with the football it looks like it’s all going to be over very soon.



And far more exciting - well yesterday was!!! 

A foul on the pitch isn't a candle to a heavy fall in a cycling race!

Cheers James


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Jameshow said:


> And far more exciting - well yesterday was!!!
> 
> A foul on the pitch isn't a candle to a heavy fall in a cycling race!
> 
> Cheers James



They both produce broken bones and ruin careers, why not watch A&E if that's your thing?


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## D_W (27 Jun 2021)

Jonm said:


> Some years ago I purchased a Kango hammer on eBay, the auction ended at about the same time as Rooney scored for England. It went cheap.



I use this same principle. "Steelers game is on, what do we need from home depot?".


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## JobandKnock (27 Jun 2021)

clogs said:


> ...when the over paid footballers etc start useing clubs with nails in during the game, I'll start watching...


Might I recommend the Irish game of hurley? Makes rugby look like a girls' sport and gets somewhere near meeting your needs...


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Might I recommend the Irish ga.e of h hurley? Makes rugby look like a girls sport and gets somewhere near meeting your needs...


or Aussie rules


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## JobandKnock (27 Jun 2021)

Nah! Bunch of wusses!


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## Trainee neophyte (27 Jun 2021)

Well, this thread expanded quickly - too much sport on telly so everyone has time to complain about it.
I am in the camp who likes to play a sport rather than watch it. As a schoolboy rugbyist I obviously know that football is a game for girls: all that shirt tugging and hair pulling and pretending to be hurt makes it a bit of a cheat's charter. Perhaps the reason the West Country doesn't excellent at football is that they are too honest? 

I haven't sat through the enforced viewing of a tv chanel for many years - we stream whatever we want to watch, uninterrupted by advertising or other unpleasantness. It's why God invented the internet. I say "we", but someone decided on Charlie's Angels for tonight's viewing please, and it definitely wasn't me.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2021)

Comment from Dominic Lawson in today's Times -
A consequence of this soccer hegemony is to give much greater prominence to football matches of no distinction than to more inspiring happenings in other sports. So there was not even a mention, still less a discussion, on the _Today_ programme sports bulletins on June 21, of the previous day’s astonishing victory by Harlequins against Bristol for a place in rugby union’s Premiership final. Described by many of those who witnessed it as “the greatest rugby game ever” (Harlequins had come back from 28-0 down to win 43-36), it was completely occluded by the Beeb’s footie fixation.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Big game just starting. I'm a ronaldo fan. 
Have belgium in the sweep stake but rooting for Portugal.


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## Ithica (27 Jun 2021)

Im with you Dr B. Ronaldo a paragon.


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## paulrbarnard (27 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> They both produce broken bones and ruin careers, why not watch A&E if that's your thing?


More likely result in a BAFTA for football ‘injuries’


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> More likely result in a BAFTA for football ‘injuries’



You've never played then 

Lets just dismiss the broken legs, torn hamstrings, dislocated joints, ACL damage, concussion, fractured skulls, death on occasion all fake.

Makes me laugh that in rugby, grabbing someones pinapples as hard as you can in a scrum or eye gouging is character building and a proper mans game.


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## Pallet Fancier (27 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I don't understand why TV planners seem to think the whole Country is interested in football - both ITV and the BBC have more than one channel, so why don't they air all the football they wish on a secondary channel?
> Personally, I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes than watch soccer. Wrong shaped ball.



After the 2012 Olympics there was much discussion on the balance of coverage between football and all the other Cinderella sports (pretty much everything else except occasional tennis, cricket and rugby). There were promises made to increase the coverage of things like athletics, although they didn't spend any money sending film crews to other sports that proved popular and drew big crowds in Beijing, London and Rio: sports like archery or canoe slalom, or a dozen different paralympic events. 

But, for a while, you might recall seeing a bit more athletics on TV. And this was a welcome change.

For as long as it lasted.

Which wasn't very long. Now, same old, same old. The baying masses get what they want: they wants the footy!

Money talks.


----------



## Noel (27 Jun 2021)

Glitch said:


> She'll get more than the 15 minutes of fame she was after, when they track her down.



I see les Flics are after her and will charge her with " deliberately violating safety regulations and causing injuries that might prevent someone working for up to three months". And ASO intend to sue her.


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## TRITON (27 Jun 2021)

Not a sport I go for. Can't play it, don't watch it, and if it comes on I find another channel.

But I dont see the harm in it, and certainly its not on all channels 24/7 so I think the OP's comments are a bit ott. Millions are interested in it, and its good viewing for them.

So whats the harm :? You dont like, you turn over or go find something to do that does interest you.

As the meerkat says; Simples


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## whatknot (27 Jun 2021)

Quite so, couldn't be simpler could it 





TRITON said:


> Not a sport I go for. Can't play it, don't watch it, and if it comes on I find another channel.
> 
> But I dont see the harm in it, and certainly its not on all channels 24/7 so I think the OP's comments are a bit ott. Millions are interested in it, and its good viewing for them.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spectric (27 Jun 2021)

Yes but stick it on it's own channel, not on all the main channels at the same time with the assumption everyone wants to see a bunch of grown men running around kicking a ball, but I suppose simple things please simple minds. Also it is not a sport anymore since it became just a big business to make money where instead of capital investment in say machinery they now rent ball kickers and foreign managers to run the business and pay silly money for someone to kick a ball, they have gone mad.


----------



## Jacob (27 Jun 2021)

Tour highlights was good ce soir!

Why are they playing football I thought it was the cricket season and shouldn't they be getting out those string tennis bats any day now?


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> Also it is not a sport anymore since it became just a big business to make money where instead of capital investment in say machinery they now rent ball kickers and foreign managers to run the business and pay silly money for someone to kick a ball, they have gone mad.



Are you suggesting then that all professional sport is wrong if they earn decent money.
Tax payers don't fund football, the revenue comes from TV rights, the big sums you talk of are nothing at present, tv pays about £4.8 billion at present, it's currently estimated that it will rise to £16 billion.


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## Noel (28 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes but stick it on it's own channel, not on all the main channels at the same time with the assumption everyone wants to see a bunch of grown men running around kicking a ball, but I suppose simple things please simple minds. Also it is not a sport anymore since it became just a big business to make money where instead of capital investment in say machinery they now rent ball kickers and foreign managers to run the business and pay silly money for someone to kick a ball, they have gone mad.




Love Island starts a new series Monday night.


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## AFFF (28 Jun 2021)

It will all return to normal soon. England qualify for the knockout stages. Come up against Germany in the first round. Lose the game after the penalty shootout. Thank goodness thats all over, we can get back to watch the normal sh*t they dish up for us


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## ajsimmo (28 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Comment from Dominic Lawson in today's Times -
> A consequence of this soccer hegemony is to give much greater prominence to football matches of no distinction than to more inspiring happenings in other sports. So there was not even a mention, still less a discussion, on the _Today_ programme sports bulletins on June 21, of the previous day’s astonishing victory by Harlequins against Bristol for a place in rugby union’s Premiership final. Described by many of those who witnessed it as “the greatest rugby game ever” (Harlequins had come back from 28-0 down to win 43-36), it was completely occluded by the Beeb’s footie fixation.


It was only shown on BT Sport as well. Too expensive for me.


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## ajsimmo (28 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Are you suggesting then that all professional sport is wrong if they earn decent money.
> Tax payers don't fund football, the revenue comes from TV rights, the big sums you talk of are nothing at present, tv pays about £4.8 billion at present, it's currently estimated that it will rise to £16 billion.


Hence the reason its on mainstream (when they can get it) because it is the majority who dictate what's on TV (thankfully not the woodworkers guild of Grumpyville! (before you shoot me down, it's a joke guys).


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## Blackswanwood (28 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes but stick it on it's own channel, not on all the main channels at the same time with the assumption everyone wants to see a bunch of grown men running around kicking a ball, but I suppose simple things please simple minds. Also it is not a sport anymore since it became just a big business to make money where instead of capital investment in say machinery they now rent ball kickers and foreign managers to run the business and pay silly money for someone to kick a ball, they have gone mad.



Judging by the viewing figures when umpteen other channels are available for those who want something else you are in a minority with that view. It's on BBC and TV for a couple of weeks every couple of years - get over it!


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## stuart little (28 Jun 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Watching something like the Tour live is a bit of an anticlimax for me. It’s over way too quick. I love the TV coverage and usually watch live.


Eurosport Player - full stage coverage, NO adverts all for less than £1/wk !!


----------



## Essex Barn Workshop (28 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Never mind - Lions V Japan tomorrow, channel 4.


Didn't watch that on Ch4, got tickets and drove from Essex to see it! Great weekend in Edinburgh. While I was there, also managed to watch lots of football too! Never too much sport on TV for me, and there's always a off switch or a channel changer available.


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## Lons (28 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Nor is a bunch of football watchers.


Hmm... As an example, 20 teams in the premier league and the average crowd attendance before the pandemic was 38500 at each match so that's more than 770,000 individuals enjoying every live match, just in one league. Add to that all the lower leagues, non league and part time / Sunday matches and there are millions every single week. Looks like a decent cross section of the population to me. 

Edit.
Add to those figures the millions who watch on TV or stream and the numbers are very significant indeed. Without doing the research I'd suggest far in excess of any other sport and probably even the crappy soaps and fly on the wall stuff.


----------



## Lons (28 Jun 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I haven't sat through the enforced viewing of a tv chanel for many years



Neither have I. No one is forced to watch any channel, everyone has the choice of switching to another or switching off. Maybe it's different in Greece.


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## doctor Bob (28 Jun 2021)

Division 3 of the bundesliga can be a bit of a challenge but nice to have it on in the background if no other sport on. Hallescher v FC Madgebrg, rivetting................


----------



## thomashenry (28 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> That's the problem - if we don't like football we can't watch things on catch up as they aren't shown in the first place. (I doubt the Olympics will get the coverage of the football, and the rugby certainly won't.)



I don't think that's true. Since the 2003 tournament, I think ITV has broadcast almost, if not every RWC game live.


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## Ithica (28 Jun 2021)

The Tokyo Olympics audience will be huge, if only to see how the IOC deals with, and the coverage of, the trans gender issue in sport. How will interested parties react. National federations world-wide are continuing to wrestle with this issue and Tokyo will be the first global event to platform the subject. The NZ Hubbard weightlifting issue is just one example.


----------



## stuart little (28 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> There is way to much coverage of people kicking a ball around on Tv at the moment and it is the euro's, has no one told them about brexit? Yes it is one of my pet hates, I hate football and avoid like it is covid. Who else thinks the same or is everyone stuck watching them kicking a ball around, then running around pretending to be an aeroplane that then has undercarriage failure.


Just seen on ebay:- Football erasers!!!


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## Trainee neophyte (28 Jun 2021)

Lons said:


> Neither have I. No one is forced to watch any channel, everyone has the choice of switching to another or switching off. Maybe it's different in Greece.


By enforced, I meant that you get to watch what the chanel scheduler thinks you should watch, at the time of their choosing. You can channel surf as much as you like, but if all the advertisers have agreed to show adverts at the same time, you get to channel - hop from ad to ad. Or watch football, or other football, or perhaps cricket if you are lucky. It's a limited choice designed to give you the illusion of freedom, whilst keeping you firmly locked in the reservation.

In Greece you get to choose between which group of overweight, middle aged men are dancing with improbably glamorous young ladies while someone abuses a clarinet in the background. Marvelous television for all the family. Something like this: 



The internet has access to most of the television and films ever made, without any advertising at all should you choose that option. Why settle for what someone thinks you ought to be watching?


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## Nelly111s (28 Jun 2021)

My TV has an off switch.


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## Lons (28 Jun 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> By enforced, I meant that you get to watch what the chanel scheduler thinks you should watch, at the time of their choosing. You can channel surf as much as you like, but if all the advertisers have agreed to show adverts at the same time, you get to channel - hop from ad to ad. Or watch football, or other football, or perhaps cricket if you are lucky. It's a limited choice designed to give you the illusion of freedom, whilst keeping you firmly locked in the reservation.



I rarely watch adverts anyway, if live TV I make a cuppa, go to the bog or switch off the sound and don't take any notice but most modern TVs, recorder boxes and SKY etc have pause and rewind buttons, no need to watch ads or what the schedulers want you to watch. Most people I know record or stream and watch programs when more convenient then you just skip the ads.
The days of 3 or 4 channels and no choices disappeared a very long time ago.

_"In Greece you get to choose between which group of overweight, middle aged men are dancing with improbably glamorous young ladies while someone abuses a clarinet in the background. Marvelous television for all the family. Something like this:"_

I'm glad I'm not in Greece then.


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## Trainee neophyte (28 Jun 2021)

Lons said:


> I'm glad I'm not in Greece then.


Luckily there is more to life than poor television. There's also woodwork.


----------



## Dangermouse 2nd (28 Jun 2021)

Hate football, quite like looking at the players though , lol


----------



## Spectric (28 Jun 2021)

Ithica said:


> the trans gender issue in sport


It is only an issue if you let it be, just use the rules that mother nature chose and then you have male & female and each category has the right angle faction but the important point is that the right bodies compete fairly against fellow competition. How would you feel as say a female boxer that comes up against a big strapping guy who has just decided to be a woman, totally unfair. Even a group for them cannot work because you have the same issues, but I agree that the problem does crop up because you do get massive masculine woman who are female and therefore compete as one against other more feminine woman, there is a tennis player in this category and is definately female as she has had a baby so cannot be questioned.


Lons said:


> The days of 3 or 4 channels and no choices disappeared a very long time ago.


At least in them days there was a good reason not to find something to watch, now with so many channels there should be no excuse.


----------



## Noel (28 Jun 2021)

Best match so far. Poor Mbappe but Swiss were good.


----------



## Blackswanwood (29 Jun 2021)

Noel said:


> Best match so far. Poor Mbappe but Swiss were good.


Best day of the tournament - Spain were luckier than the score suggests.


----------



## Transit80 (29 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Sunday league football is a classic example of unhealthy men with no talent playing a game beyond their ability. There were always one nutter per side who's sole ambition was to inflict injury. Usually it was the fat bloke warming up with a fag and a hangover.


How true!!, and as a goalkeeper I have suffered from such people, long time ago now but Id had enough at 32.


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## Glitch (29 Jun 2021)

Tennis fans should be happy with TV coverage yesterday. 10 hours on BBC2 and over 5 hours on BBC1 at the same time.

That's a good reason for a moan.

Off to Wembley today so don't care how many hours of sport are on TV. 
If England win I'll probably watch it again on TV


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## doctor Bob (29 Jun 2021)

Ideally I need a 2-0 England tonight to get through into the quarter finals of my predictor league


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## paulrbarnard (29 Jun 2021)

Cavendish just took stage 4 of TdF. That is exciting sports on TV!!


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## Noel (29 Jun 2021)

2-1 to Germany. 
Although draw after 120 and penos would be interesting.


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## Blackswanwood (29 Jun 2021)

Noel said:


> 2-1 to Germany.
> Although draw after 120 and penos would be interesting.


It’s coming home


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## Lons (29 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Ideally I need a 2-0 England tonight to get through into the quarter finals of my predictor league


Spot on Bob.


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## Noel (29 Jun 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> It’s coming home



I doubt that. Germany played their best, for what it was, in first 15 mins, downhill after that. Best team won. 
Neuer was poor, especially with the first goal.
Ukraine May be a tougher test and a better game.
Pity about the behaviour of some Eng fans, sad to see again.
Best of luck to you all.


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## Ithica (30 Jun 2021)

Noel, what on earth do you expect from English football fans - I assume you mean the terrible boo bombing of the German national anthem and the mawkish decision of the TV director to aim the camera at a young German fan in tears. Where are my spoons, I need to count them again. Your resigned and wistful criticism of the fans in the light of the greatest football result in the history of the entire universe brings to mind Macaulay's comment 'We know no spectacle so ridiculous as the British public in one of its periodic fits of morality'. In order to rely on emotions like Roy call to arms, 'F**k you, I'm Millwall...' we have to put up with a little light booing. I was more concerned about a worldwide TV audience being shown Joachim Low's determined and disgusting nasal mining. I'm writing to my MP.


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## Rorschach (30 Jun 2021)

Is there football on?


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## Daniel2 (30 Jun 2021)

I have heard mention of it.


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## JAW911 (30 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Ideally I need a 2-0 England tonight to get through into the quarter finals of my predictor league


Well done!!


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## doctor Bob (30 Jun 2021)

25 million viewers, eastenders and corrie get about 5 million, no brainer to show the football it's what the masses want.
You can kick off and whinge all you want and to be honest non sport people do every sporting event but it's pointless.

I bloody love it.................


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Jun 2021)

I assume they asked everyone in the Country to arrive at that figure?


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## Rorschach (30 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I assume they asked everyone in the Country to arrive at that figure?



They didn't ask me, I was watching paint dry, where are the viewing figures for that?


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## doctor Bob (30 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I assume they asked everyone in the Country to arrive at that figure?



Feel free to doubt them, maybe group doubt from a woodworking forum will stop the broadcast of the quarter finals


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## doctor Bob (30 Jun 2021)

The repair shop 2.9m, really needs to go back to BBC2.

Maybe you all want "homes under the hammer" or "supermarket sweep" instead.
What TV is it that you are missing so badly?


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## Glitch (30 Jun 2021)

I went to the game with my daughter, grandson and one of my sons.
We had a fantastic, memorable day.

I tend to avoid the more raucous fans when following England in tournaments. They do make me cringe sometimes. The National anthem booing, the jingoistic songs, etc.

Yesterday, under a bit of pressure from my ‘kids’ I immersed myself in it although I’d never disrespect national anthems or opposing fans.

It was a joyous occasion. Family bonding. Pre-match excitement. Soaking up the atmosphere. Breaking free from Covid restrictions. Sharing a great experience with 40,000 other fans. Singing. Hugging family and complete strangers in moments of sheer ecstasy.
Eng v Ger has been a special fixture since I first watched the ‘66 final and subsequent repetitive failures.

Not everyone’s cup of tea but football fans will know what I’m on about.

One thing I do know is that these cringeworthy fans are typically ordinary, working class lads no different to me other than I’ve had some luck and opportunities that took me in a different direction.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Jun 2021)

Breaking free from Covid restrictions. Sharing a great experience with 40,000 other fans. Singing. Hugging family and complete strangers in moments of sheer ecstasy ...

We are are not allowed to do this at a loved one's funeral. The government has its priorities wrong. That 2500 UEFA "officials" and their fartcatchers are allowed into the Country without isolation is sheer, utter stupidity.


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## Glitch (30 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Breaking free from Covid restrictions. Sharing a great experience with 40,000 other fans. Singing. Hugging family and complete strangers in moments of sheer ecstasy ...
> 
> We are are not allowed to do this at a loved one's funeral. The government has its priorities wrong. That 2500 UEFA "officials" and their fartcatchers are allowed into the Country without isolation is sheer, utter stupidity.



I agree. 
It's not fair and it's not logical.
To get into the stadium you needed evidence from NHS of double jab or a negative lateral flow test within last 48 hours. Token effort with enforcing masks and using alternate seats. Don't know who could police this at funerals.

We can't let our lives be controlled by government beyond the scheduled lifting of all restrictions July 19th. A lot of people already ignoring the mask wearing rules.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Jun 2021)

Sharing a great experience with 40,000 other fans. Singing. Hugging family and complete strangers in moments of sheer ecstasy ... while using alternate seats. Right ..........


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## Glitch (30 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Sharing a great experience with 40,000 other fans. Singing. Hugging family and complete strangers in moments of sheer ecstasy ... while using alternate seats. Right ..........


All the 'rules' were ignored once inside.

No one would stop me hugging at a funeral.


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## scooby (30 Jun 2021)

I think Doctor Bob would get on very well with my dad. They seem to have the same view on televised football.

When I was younger, I used to love watching football on tv but it was never on. Midweek Sport special would show a few highlights and then it was MOTD (when it was on) and an occasional Sunday game. The finals were only the only guaranteed things to watch live. 

Now I can't stand football, its on all the time Pretty easy to avoid though as mentioned and fair play to people who enjoy watching it.
I'm like a lot of people here, cycling is my cup of tea. I'll quite happily watch anything to do with cycling.


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## Linwoodjoinery (1 Jul 2021)

Each to their own. I personally love football and it’s about time we are ‘allowed’ to be English and proud


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## MikeJhn (1 Jul 2021)

Linwoodjoinery said:


> Each to their own. I personally love football and it’s about time we are ‘allowed’ to be English and proud



With the current morality kick going on in the UK we are going to lose our heritage because we offend a minority with a load, nay very load voice.


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jul 2021)

Loud? More likely, we offend people who are professionally offended by proxy.


----------



## joethedrummer (1 Jul 2021)

The Chiller said:


> Moto GP, World Superbikes, British Superbikes, IOM TT. Rugby.


Score,,,4 out of 5,, vroom


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## Spectric (1 Jul 2021)

There are things in life that you just cannot get your head round, they make no logical sense. Inhaling toxic fumes and tar from burning plant mater is one, calling it smoking for some reason makes it appear normal to some. Football is another, I just cannot see what is interesting in watching grown men running around kicking a ball, why people living in say preston support say chelsea and how you have a team with not only no players from that area but mostly imports and to cap it off foreign managers. Foreign managers is the easiest to understand because we do not have a good record when it comes to managment in the uk. Things may have been different if I was watching some of the guys I worked with playing for the local team, apparently that is how it started before becoming just a rich mans bussiness. Other sports were once exciting but now have been tamed so much they are boring, group B rallying was really when motorsport was both dangerous but very exciting, if you have ever seen an E2 sport Quattro coming through a forrest stage you will know what I mean. Then F1 is just nonsense, more like a race of technology and logistics than racing and Le Mans has gone tame since they stuck two bends into the once nearly four mile long mulsanne straight and they are now all oh so safe, so not only is there too much but also it's less watchable.


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## J-G (1 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> ...and they are now all oh so safe...


I'm not sure Niki Lauda or Ayrton Senna would agree with your sentiment !


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jul 2021)

"Now" being the operative word.


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jul 2021)

I've never understood the tribalism in football - why would you support a team that are bought and sold regularly, a foreign manager, a foreign owner, without a single local player and on a pitch that often isn't in the original place? It does apply to rugby as well, course.


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## Jacob (1 Jul 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> With the current morality kick going on in the UK we are going to lose our heritage because we offend a minority with a load, nay very load voice.


Good job some of these minorities are happy to play in your teams!


Phil Pascoe said:


> I've never understood the tribalism in football - why would you support a team that are bought and sold regularly, a foreign manager, a foreign owner, without a single local player and on a pitch that often isn't in the original place? It does apply to rugby as well, course.


Because the tribalism is more important to them than the football?


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## Spectric (1 Jul 2021)

J-G said:


> I'm not sure Niki Lauda or Ayrton Senna would agree with your sentiment !


That was a different era, when drivers drove their cars and knew the risk, modern drivers would probably struggle to get off the grid in the cars they drove let alone compete with the likes of Senna & Schumacher. The modern F1 is just a small step away from being a scalextric car that could be driven from the sidelines.


----------



## scooby (1 Jul 2021)

F1 is the epitome of boring...its (and has been for a long time) a measuring competition for designers. Design and build the best car and you've got an almost guaranteed driver and constructor title. It doesn't matter who's driving. Driver talent comes second, which is ludicrous.

I'd guess Hamilton's and Verstappen's talent 'levels' haven't increased/decreased significantly this year but of all sudden, Hamilton can't win a race to save his life..

Even the commentators acknowledge its boring and how it was better in the 70's/80's but they can never go back to those days as it would be a massive step backwards in technology..who cares? Sod technological advance and boring races..chuck the egos out of the window and get back to something even remotely exciting.

As mentioned, MotoGP is the only motorsport worth watching (imo).

Having said all that, much like watching season 4 of Game of Thrones..I still watch F1 in the vain hope that it will provide something exciting.

A race that isnt won from the first corner or using pit stop tactics would be nice.


----------



## Spectric (1 Jul 2021)

What F1 needs is new rules, you have a box with set width, height and length, so long as your car fits into the box then it is ok. The rules of non contact and such would still apply and you get penalty points if you do not have a clutch pedal or use automated pullaway systems. I would also think you would need to ban gas turbines and such otherwise you would have the unfair advantage of cremating the guy trying to overtake.


----------



## Blackswanwood (1 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> The modern F1 is just a small step away from being a scalextric car that could be driven from the sidelines.


Possibly not what Romain Grosjean felt as he went through the barrier in Bahrain(?) and burst into flames last season ...


----------



## whatknot (1 Jul 2021)

I stopped watching F1 a looooooong time ago, its been extremely boring for some years

Do they even need a driver these days? they control so much from trackside they could almost do it by remote control (which is what it looks like now)




scooby said:


> F1 is the epitome of boring...its (and has been for a long time) a measuring competition for designers. Design and build the best car and you've got an almost guaranteed driver and constructor title. It doesn't matter who's driving. Driver talent comes second, which is ludicrous.


----------



## Jacob (1 Jul 2021)

Mad Max races are very watchable. Maybe they should have an open class for motor races, with handicap ratings to balance things out. More fun by far!


----------



## Phil Pascoe (1 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> That was a different era, when drivers drove their cars and knew the risk, modern drivers would probably struggle to get off the grid in the cars they drove let alone compete with the likes of Senna & Schumacher. The modern F1 is just a small step away from being a scalextric car that could be driven from the sidelines.


I did hear a part of an interview of an ex racing driver being asked who he thought were the greatest ever drivers. (I don't remember the name.) He went through the list, Senna, Fangio etc. then was asked where was Hamilton. Oh, I don't include him - his car is so much better than the others, he replied.


----------



## doctor Bob (1 Jul 2021)

I never understood Norm, I thought everything he made was rubbish and couldn't understand the following he had especially when he wasn't even a local boy, not even english, over commercialised and he was managed by an American company as well, plenty seemed to worship him though. Strange old world.


----------



## paulrbarnard (1 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've never understood the tribalism in football - why would you support a team that are bought and sold regularly, a foreign manager, a foreign owner, without a single local player and on a pitch that often isn't in the original place? It does apply to rugby as well, course.


And looking to North America the NHL is just a completion to see who has the best French Canadian players.


----------



## Terry - Somerset (1 Jul 2021)

Sport has become neutered over the last few decades. 

F1 no longer refuels during the race, most tracks have extensive run off areas, race is yellow/red flagged for historically minor issues, complex rule books dominate etc. 

Football has broken the link with local communities - we may just as well have Nike United, and Adidas town. The game is played to limit the risk of injury. Artificial grass. Cameras in football, cricket, tennis eliminate the risk of refereeing error.

Top level sport has largely become a tedious experience. It is driven by money which inhibits risk taking, and put the outcome above the game. 

It is understandable competitors want to minimise serious risks - who wants to engage in a sport and end up crippled. As a spectacle it is now lacking despite those on the field often being hugely more talented and fitter than their sporting forbears. 

Excitement in sport relies upon risk, physical endeavour, uncertainty, effort. Playing on rain sodden pitches, submitting to the variable quality of refereeing decisions, making passion a reality rather than just a word to be used in the post match/race interview, all contribute to the spectator experience.

There is no joy in re-analysing a slo-mo replay of a penalty decision - but a questionable umpire or refereeing decision can provide hours of debate over a post match pint or two. Competition lacks spontenaeity and excitement as the fundamental qualities have been removed from games.


----------



## Ithica (1 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I never understood Norm, I thought everything he made was rubbish and couldn't understand the following he had especially when he wasn't even a local boy, not even english, over commercialised and he was managed by an American company as well, plenty seemed to worship him though. Strange old world.


You raise an interesting point. Players, managers and even grounds come and go but an idea, 'the football club' sustains. Often passed from generation to generation. Its a bit like Trigger's broom - 15 handles and 23 brush heads but it remains Trigger's broom and he is proud of it. Mange tout Rodney, mange tout.


----------



## MikeJhn (1 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Good job some of these minorities are happy to play in your teams!


Not my teams and I could not care less who they play for, shame so many think its so important that they will pay through the nose to watch and support their extortionate life styles.


----------



## MikeJhn (1 Jul 2021)

F1 has lost its way, "Drag reduction system, what on earth"? "different tyres for qualifying" " must use the tyres you posted your fastest lap on to start the race" What on earth are they thinking, I know the FIA (Ferrari International Assistance) have some funny ideas, but they have gone haywire.


----------



## Doug71 (1 Jul 2021)

The only sport I watch is a bit of F1, I find it fascinating that you can have 10 cars in qualifying all with times within 0.5 second of each other yet it's always the same ones who are at the top.

Never been a Hamilton fan, found it funny he was moaning that Red Bull have a faster when he has had the fastest car for about the last 5 years.

Thought it was hilarious when Mercedes put Russell in Hamiltons car then seemed like they did all they could to stop Russell winning.

Only time I watch football is England in Euros or world cup.


----------



## scooby (1 Jul 2021)

Doug71 said:


> The only sport I watch is a bit of F1, I find it fascinating that you can have 10 cars in qualifying all with times within 0.5 second of each other yet it's always the same ones who are at the top.
> 
> Never been a Hamilton fan, found it funny he was moaning that Red Bull have a faster when he has had the fastest car for about the last 5 years.
> 
> ...



I genuinely felt sorry for Russell when he didn't win that race. Its mind boggling how inept the Mercedes 'strategic' team are at times. Hamilton has had a few victories stole from him because of them. Maybe its their way of making the sport interesting.

Sort of proves my point of driver skill being second. Russell had a couple of days to get used to the Merc and, through no fault of his own, had the victory stolen.

Should be interesting next year with the 'pimp my ride' cars with 50" rims. Probably just be more of the same but Snoop Dog will be probably doing the post race interviews


----------



## MikeJhn (2 Jul 2021)

I think Mercedes became genuinely confused when Russell showed the form he had, I don't think Toto would deliberately stop his prodigy from winning after all he is his manager, next year will be the same as always, change for change sake with little real world innovation, the only ground effect I get is from punctures in the stupid run flat tyres, six in one year, never worn a tyre out, just had to have them changed, flint strewed and pot hole roads in Kent are terrible.

On driver ability I think Graham Hill was the master, he never won a race all the other competitors lost them, he could nurse a car to keep it going whilst others fell by the wayside, shame he could not fly as well.


----------



## Blackswanwood (2 Jul 2021)

I find the view sport has lost something through having rules to reduce the risk of serious injury or worse very odd. 

The speed and skill across the board in football today outstrips the games played in years gone by - I'd rather watch this than needing to see a potentially leg breaking tackle to get my excitement.

Anyway - roll on Saturday night so we can get on with bringing it home ... and great to see Emma Raducanu into the third round at Wimbledon ... and even if some think Lewis Hamilton isn't needed as it's easy and all done by technology I hope he's first past the chequered flag on Sunday!

Edit ... and well done to the English cricket team


----------



## Just4Fun (2 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Sport has become neutered over the last few decades.


From where I sit I would say sport has become_ safer_ over the last few decades. I don't think that detracts from it in any way.



> Excitement in sport relies upon risk, physical endeavour, uncertainty, effort.


Why include risk in that list? I would remove it and replace it with skill.

My own sport of choice is rallying, and I have been competing as a co-driver since the 1970s. Back when I started I competed in cars that, by today's standards, had limited safety features. For example, compare a modern roll cage to a 1970s roll cage. There is no doubt that the modern cage is much safer, but that makes no difference to the skill required by the crew to drive the car at high speed through a forest or wherever. OK, My perspective is that of a competitor but if a spectator wants to see us suffer injury or death if we get it wrong then I have no time for them. On the rare occasions that I spectate myself I applaud the fact that someone can have an accident and stand a good chance of walking away from it unharmed. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out that way, such as when a co-driver died over here a couple of weeks ago. I see such accidents as sad reminders that we need to keep pushing the safety side, not as something that increases the spectacle of the sport.


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## JAW911 (2 Jul 2021)

Last season Williams’ George Russell (who is actually a Mercedes driver on loan to Williams) was given a drive in Lewis Hamilton’s car because LH was out with Covid. He led much of the race with an excellent drive and would have won had the team not withdrawn him with a suspected ‘puncture’ which was not visible(?) I had moments before said to my wife that I couldn’t believe they would let him win as it would show that it’s all about the car. Russell is normally in the bottom 25% as his car can’t compete with the top teams.


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## AlanY (2 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> That was a different era, when drivers drove their cars and knew the risk, modern drivers would probably struggle to get off the grid in the cars they drove let alone compete with the likes of Senna & Schumacher. The modern F1 is just a small step away from being a scalextric car that could be driven from the sidelines.


Also, the drivers were true superstars. My all time favourite driver was James Hunt. I used to love watching F1 back then. No longer bother. F1 is just a waste of time now (other than as a technology development and test environment for the likes of Mercedes Benz) and the drivers bore me to tears. 

With a few honourable exceptions (e.g. rugby and cycling) all modern sports have been turned into woke shadows of what they once were. Football? I am surprised the players are not accompanied by their nannies given they burst into tears at the slightest physical contact and fall rolling to the ground clutching the point of contact and demanding a penalty ("I will scweam and I'll scweam..."), just to be up and running at full sprint 10 seconds later.


----------



## MikeJhn (2 Jul 2021)

AlanY said:


> With a few honourable exceptions (e.g. rugby and cycling) all modern sports have been turned into woke shadows of what they once were. Football? I am surprised the players are not accompanied by their nannies given they burst into tears at the slightest physical contact and fall rolling to the ground clutching the point of contact and demanding a penalty ("I will scweam and I'll scweam..."), just to be up and running at full sprint 10 seconds later.


Screaming for a penalty is very akin to objecting to the speed of a rivals pit stop, use the rules to your advantage despite the fairness of the objection or indeed the intent of them, but I agree with the cycling analogy, Garett Thomas bravery getting back up after having his shoulder put back in place after a crash and carrying on with his job is showing true grit, the same as lots of others on this Tour, some very heavily bandaged, but still doing their job, can't mention the Tour without wishing Mark Cavendish a few more wins.


----------



## Glitch (2 Jul 2021)

JAW911 said:


> Last season Williams’ George Russell (who is actually a Mercedes driver on loan to Williams) was given a drive in Lewis Hamilton’s car because LH was out with Covid. He led much of the race with an excellent drive and would have won had the team not withdrawn him with a suspected ‘puncture’ which was not visible(?) I had moments before said to my wife that I couldn’t believe they would let him win as it would show that it’s all about the car. Russell is normally in the bottom 25% as his car can’t compete with the top teams.



The difference between all the drivers in the same cars is probably hundredths of a second difference per lap.
Vestappen said he’d be a tenth quicker than Hamilton!

A hungry youngster like Russell is unlikely to have the same fear as a driver who’s done it all and coming to the end of a lucrative career. Plus driving the car is more like a computer game these days.

Look how Danny Ricciardo is running behind young teammate Norris. Think Danny has maybe lost the hunger for it.

It’s probably 99.8% the machinery these days.
The number of times the cars line up on the grid in manufacturer order.


----------



## Spectric (2 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> It is understandable competitors want to minimise serious risks - who wants to engage in a sport and end up crippled.


That is where something has changed, we are now so wrapped up in cotton wool and pampered that we are becoming little more than frightened children when it comes to danger and risk, think back to when both Donald and Malcom campbell just got into there record breaking machines and knowing the risk just went for it, then the grand prix racing in the twenties and thirties where death and injury were just things that happened and do not forget these cars were not slow, a 1939 Auto union D9 was powered by a 485 horsepower, 3-liter V-12 and good for 200+ mph and really nothing as far as safety goes. So one conclusion is that the human race is in a state of devolution as evidenced by the rise of the wokies, are we destined to become nothings who fear their sexuality that they just cannot accept and have an autistic mentality where they believe they are equal to mother nature and have a say in who and what they are rather than being normal logical beings who accept you are what you are and although you may get a choice at a cheese counter you don't get a choice in what you are born.


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## MikeJhn (2 Jul 2021)

I used to play Golf with an ex-professional footballer, during one discussion he said that there was no difference between aggression and commitment.


----------



## thomashenry (2 Jul 2021)

Linwoodjoinery said:


> Each to their own. I personally love football and it’s about time we are ‘allowed’ to be English and proud



When has this ever not been the case? It's just something that lots of English people seem perpetually upset about for no reason.


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## thomashenry (2 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> That is where something has changed, we are now so wrapped up in cotton wool and pampered that we are becoming little more than frightened children when it comes to danger and risk, think back to when both Donald and Malcom campbell just got into there record breaking machines and knowing the risk just went for it, then the grand prix racing in the twenties and thirties where death and injury were just things that happened and do not forget these cars were not slow, a 1939 Auto union D9 was powered by a 485 horsepower, 3-liter V-12 and good for 200+ mph and really nothing as far as safety goes. So one conclusion is that the human race is in a state of devolution as evidenced by the rise of the wokies, are we destined to become nothings who fear their sexuality that they just cannot accept and have an autistic mentality where they believe they are equal to mother nature and have a say in who and what they are rather than being normal logical beings who accept you are what you are and although you may get a choice at a cheese counter you don't get a choice in what you are born.



I assume this is satire, if so - bravo.


----------



## thomashenry (2 Jul 2021)

AlanY said:


> Also, the drivers were true superstars. My all time favourite driver was James Hunt. I used to love watching F1 back then. No longer bother. F1 is just a waste of time now (other than as a technology development and test environment for the likes of Mercedes Benz) and the drivers bore me to tears.
> 
> With a few honourable exceptions (e.g. rugby and cycling) *all modern sports have been turned into woke shadows of what they once were*. Football? I am surprised the players are not accompanied by their nannies given they burst into tears at the slightest physical contact and fall rolling to the ground clutching the point of contact and demanding a penalty ("I will scweam and I'll scweam..."), just to be up and running at full sprint 10 seconds later.



What does this even mean?


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2021)

thomashenry said:


> I assume this is satire,


No it is reality, but more obvious to us who were born too long ago as we have seen and witnessed the changes and decline. 



thomashenry said:


> What does this even mean?


 
I assume you are young and not lived through the days when Motorsports were really dangerous and the drivers were respected, Surtees, Prost, Clarke were racing drivers whilst the likes of Hamilton may sit in a car but it is the technology that supports him, make him drive an eighties Honda and he would burst into tears because of the lack of safety features and effort needed.


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## thomashenry (2 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> No it is reality, but more obvious to us who were born too long ago as we have seen and witnessed the changes and decline.
> 
> I assume you are young and not lived through the days when Motorsports were really dangerous and the drivers were respected, Surtees, Prost, Clarke were racing drivers whilst the likes of Hamilton may sit in a car but it is the technology that supports him, make him drive an eighties Honda and he would burst into tears because of the lack of safety features and effort needed.



You think it's 'woke' (whatever that means) that something we watch for entertainment now carries a much lower risk of death than it once did. You think this a bad thing and is indicative of humans devolving. 

I don't know what sort of strange person you must be to value entertainment by how likely it is that one of the participants might die. 

Bizarre.


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## Just4Fun (2 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> No it is reality,


So what fatality rate would satisfy you?

Christians used to fight lions in the colosseum but I hope we have progressed beyond mindless bloodshed as a form of entertainment.


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> So what fatality rate would satisfy you?


You are missing the point, if something is like knitting, ie perfectly safe without risk then where is the excitment, there is nothing unexpected and once over thats it. People need to accept death, no good hiding or pretending it won't happen to me because the reaper will find you when your time is up, no starting over like some computer game that gives you another chance and it is just a fact of life. So when those kids jumped into their planes in WW2 knowing that their chances of survival were slim did they shy away and say No I cannot participate because that is dangerous and someone might get hurt! That is where things have changed, peoples mindset has been changed over time and we are becoming like jellyfish, ie no backbone.


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## Terry - Somerset (2 Jul 2021)

I've absolutely no desire to see sportsmen and women injured or killed. I find it extraordinary and re-assuring that (for instance) an F1 driver can go into a barrier at 160mph and walk away apparently uninjured bar a few bruises.

Risk and uncertainty are part of a spectator sport intended to be exciting. An F1 analogy - uncertainty is whether the pit crew have a problem with the wheel gun, risk is whether a driver goes off the track attempting to overtake. Little doubt the latter is visually more exciting. 

This is probably why I think BTCC (touring cars) a far better viewing experience than F1, with drivers obviously competing, rather than a triumph of the tecchies. Wind tunnel testing, airflow simulations, spring rates, ground effect etc do not make good viewing (interesting though they may be to some)


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## Jacob (2 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> You are missing the point, if something is like knitting, ie perfectly safe without risk then where is the excitment, .....


Dunno it could make exciting telly: "The Great British Knitting Bee" "Come Knitting" "Celebrity Knit-Off" "Knit Island"
I can't wait! Better than bloody football!


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jul 2021)

How about "Celebrity Chefs Knitting on Ice"? That would be more exciting than football.


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## thomashenry (2 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> You are missing the point, if something is like knitting, ie perfectly safe without risk then where is the excitment, there is nothing unexpected and once over thats it. People need to accept death, no good hiding or pretending it won't happen to me because the reaper will find you when your time is up, no starting over like some computer game that gives you another chance and it is just a fact of life. So when those kids jumped into their planes in WW2 knowing that their chances of survival were slim did they shy away and say No I cannot participate because that is dangerous and someone might get hurt! That is where things have changed, peoples mindset has been changed over time and we are becoming like jellyfish, ie no backbone.



That's literally the most hilarious/ridiculous post I've ever read on the internet. Good job.


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## clogs (2 Jul 2021)

formula 1 cars 
Should be, any engine u like upto 5.5litres.....
only electronic ignition and ABS allowed....power steering is Ok but* NO* other driver aids allowed.....
running on proper PETROL without silencers....
no probs with crash cells or explosion proof fuel tanks.....
then we'll see if that little upstart from Stevenage is any good.....
that should make a good spector sport again....
oh, the trumped up midget that used to run the thing should be made to give all the money back and used for injured drivers etc
in the future.....
lastly, the championship winners engine must be put up for auction to raise money for charity....

bring it on......


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## D_W (2 Jul 2021)

clogs said:


> lastly, the championship winners engine must be put up for auction to raise money for charity....
> 
> bring it on......



competitors' sponsors would likely have the highest bid. 

I have no issue with the rules mentioned, though - it would be more interesting than listening to vacuum cleaner sounds. Would guess that 3 liters would be enough to make cars go fast enough. 

The problem is the manufacturers and sponsors want to somehow turn the races into selling things - something like a 3 liter ferrari v12 probably doesn't appeal to iphone carrying manbunners. 

At the same time, a battery car isn't that inspiring, even when someone "guarantees" you that a new dumpy looking crossover EV has "race technology" in it.


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## Just4Fun (2 Jul 2021)

clogs said:


> running on proper PETROL


Defining "proper petrol" is a constant problem in motorsport. What would you accept? What would you outlaw?


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## Terry - Somerset (2 Jul 2021)

Proper petrol is what you fill the tank with at your local supermarket. If Sainsburys don't sell it, you can't use it!


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## doctor Bob (2 Jul 2021)

I have 2-0 to spain, my opponent has 1-0 spain, need another spanish goal


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## Just4Fun (2 Jul 2021)

E85 fuel is on sale at (some) fuel stations, but it is hardly traditional petrol. Would you permit that? These are the sort of issues you run into with this approach.

There are also problems with fuel not being the same in different places / countries. If you tune an engine to run on 98 octane from Sainsburys what do you use at a competition in another country where there is no Sainsburys and pump fuel has maximum 95 octane with different additives etc?

These are not easy questions to answer. The obvious solution of a standard fuel used for all competitions in a championship has other problems, such as having to ship that standard fuel to all competitions and the added cost of doing so.


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## Blackswanwood (2 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I have 2-0 to spain, my opponent has 1-0 spain, need another spanish goal


I reckon we’re going to penalties now


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## doctor Bob (2 Jul 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> I reckon we’re going to penalties now



Due to the way it works, I have the advantage on previous correct scores so as long as neither of us get correct score (90 mins), I'm fine.
Still looks like both sides are giving it a go.


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## Blackswanwood (2 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Due to the way it works, I have the advantage on previous correct scores so as long as neither of us get correct score (90 mins), I'm fine.
> Still looks like both sides are giving it a go.


Not sure that was a red card.


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Proper petrol is what you fill the tank with at your local supermarket. If Sainsburys don't sell it, you can't use it!


Does it mater what fuel they use, petrol or methanol or maybe even electric and you may see some extreme engineering that will bring back competativeness because it is always a trade off, weight and power. Look at how Porsche developed the 917 engine, an aircooled flat twelve that propelled the car to over 120 mph in 5 secounds, that was when the rules allowed engineers to make power and not look for ways to work around the rules.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jul 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> E85 fuel is on sale at (some) fuel stations, but it is hardly traditional petrol. Would you permit that? These are the sort of issues you run into with this approach.
> 
> There are also problems with fuel not being the same in different places / countries. If you tune an engine to run on 98 octane from Sainsburys what do you use at a competition in another country where there is no Sainsburys and pump fuel has maximum 95 octane with different additives etc?
> 
> These are not easy questions to answer. The obvious solution of a standard fuel used for all competitions in a championship has other problems, such as having to ship that standard fuel to all competitions and the added cost of doing so.


 TVO.


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## MikeJhn (2 Jul 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> I used to play Golf with an ex-professional footballer, during one discussion he said that there was no difference between aggression and commitment.


Ah just though I also played Gold with a Professional Boxer a very high ranking one at that, his opinion was if you are aggressive i.e. angry you have already lost.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jul 2021)

You can't be cold and calculated, and aggressive at the same time. Ippon.


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## MikeJhn (2 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Proper petrol is what you fill the tank with at your local supermarket. If Sainsburys don't sell it, you can't use it!


Proper petrol is what is supplied to the race teams by the FIA and checked constantly during the week-end of any race.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jul 2021)

That is so they all use the same petrol - not necessarily the same petrol us us.


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## doctor Bob (2 Jul 2021)

whoooo hooo got the italy result, puts me close to semi finals.


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## woodieallen (2 Jul 2021)

thomashenry said:


> That's literally the most hilarious/ridiculous post I've ever read on the internet. Good job.



I'm curious. Why is it hilarious? People do need to accept death as it's coming to us all eventually. Surely it's what you do before the that counts ?


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## baldkev (2 Jul 2021)

On the original thread topic..... i hate football. I'll kick a ball about in a oark with the kids but why on earth would j want to sit and watch other people doing it? 

As for f1, i agree it is now boring as hell, way too technical and was better in the 80s / 90s. Safety improvements are of course fantastic, but you can still have a rip snorting v10 with the safety improvements, like better built cars. The drivers are of course all in a very high class, even those who come last are still the best in their game. These days they mostly come from a karting background where consistency is key. 
Modern drivers could definitely compete with the old school guys, if both were in the same petrol powered 80s machines, but they would need time to acclimatise, different machine and different tracks.

Refinement is the problem.
The cars are designed and built as best as technology can allow.
The drivers are now a very fit bunch who train and train until they are like machines, theres less enjoyment because it has all got so refined that theres not much actual difference between cars and drivers, the sort of behaviour drivers got away with in the past ( like Schumacher's dominant / bullying driving ) wouldn't be tolerated now, the tracks are generally more refined too.....


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## Lons (3 Jul 2021)

baldkev said:


> .
> The cars are designed and built as best as technology can allow.
> The drivers are now a very fit bunch who train and train until they are like machines, theres less enjoyment because it has all got so refined that theres not much actual difference between cars and drivers, the sort of behaviour drivers got away with in the past ( like Schumacher's dominant / bullying driving ) wouldn't be tolerated now, the tracks are generally more refined too.....



Exactly! and those who imply it's all car and the drivers make little difference don't know what they're talking about. Martin Brundle for example drove Hamilton's last year car and he said it was difficult to think and react quickly enough, Richard Hammond drove an older F1 car a few years ago and definitely couldn't think fast enough to take the corners at anything but a snail pace. I've driven an Audi R8 around a track at speed, fully automatic and I had to concentrate so hard on the track I didn't dare look at the speedo and I think I'm a reasonable driver. I certainly couldn't fiddle with buttons or change settings whilst doing 200 mph.  and seriously doubt anyone on here could either.

What people seem to overlook when they decry the technological developments is that these cars contribute to the development of systems, lubricants, tyres, brakes etc. that find their way into road cars, the current crop of 1.6l hybrids producing immense power of almost 1000 bhp compared with around 750bhp from the big V8 and V12 engines with relative reliability and Formula E is another example of that technology driving forward.

As far as the football is concerned, I'm happy to be one of the 28 million who watched or live streamed the England v Germany match, I don't have a problem with those who don't like to watch any more than I do with those who watch cr*p fly on the wall or soaps, their choice, it's what makes the world go around, get a life. 

It's pretty simple really, if you find F1, football, cricket, rugby, tennis or whatever boring then do something else other than grumble about it.


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## Trainee neophyte (3 Jul 2021)

Lons said:


> It's pretty simple really, if you find F1, football, cricket, rugby, tennis or whatever boring then do something else other than grumble about it.


A very long time ago there was a tv program just for that.


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## clogs (3 Jul 2021)

Lons exactly....I'll have my T in the shed as normal pls.....

should say quite the Indy 500......men and cars.....not knee benders......hahaha.....


----------



## glenfield2 (3 Jul 2021)

JAW911 said:


> Last season Williams’ George Russell (who is actually a Mercedes driver on loan to Williams) was given a drive in Lewis Hamilton’s car because LH was out with Covid. He led much of the race with an excellent drive and would have won had the team not withdrawn him with a suspected ‘puncture’ which was not visible(?) I had moments before said to my wife that I couldn’t believe they would let him win as it would show that it’s all about the car. Russell is normally in the bottom 25% as his car can’t compete with the top teams.


Not sure that’s entirely fair:
The vehicle always been a big part of the equation in all forms of motorsport (opting to drive for British teams was one reason S Moss never won a world title). 
If it was just the car then Bottas would be equal in results to Hamilton not out-driven by him on most occasions. 
George Russell is a highly talented young driver. That’s why Mercedes had him under contract. Still a fine performance.

PS there are a lot of things wrong with F1 these days but the fact that drivers aren’t getting killed every other race is not one of them.


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## Just4Fun (3 Jul 2021)

woodieallen said:


> People do need to accept death as it's coming to us all eventually.


Of course, but the issue is whether you should do what you can to reduce the chance of it coming sooner rather than later. 

A common theme on here is criticising the unsafe working methods displayed by many woodworkers on youtube. Applying Spectric's logic you could argue that we should just accept that we will all die sometime so why bother trying to work safely? A table saw would be much more exciting without a guard and all the woke folk who use one are wimps compared to the old-timers who just got on with the job without one. Not a philosophy I would agree with.


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## MikeJhn (3 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> That is so they all use the same petrol - not necessarily the same petrol us us.


That is a given.


----------



## Lons (3 Jul 2021)

clogs said:


> formula 1 cars
> Should be, any engine u like upto 5.5litres.....
> only electronic ignition and ABS allowed....power steering is Ok but* NO* other driver aids allowed.....
> running on proper PETROL without silencers....
> ...


Hmm...I missed this post earlier and it's nonsensical imo.. The current crop of F1 cars are severely restricted on the type of "driver aids" they are allowed to have. The following are all banned.

* ABS (banned a long time ago)
* Traction control
* Active suspension
* Brake steer
* CVT gearboxes ( type of automatic gearbox)

and the fuel used is highly regulated for several reasons e.g. the highly tuned engines won't run on it and to ensure a level playing field, at least it bears some resemblance to the fuel we use, left to their own devices it certainly bear a closer relationship to rocket fuel.

They are allowed power steering and without that the cars would be undrivable due to the width of the tyres.

The one sentence in your post that does disturb me and suggests a reason for your attitude is _" then we'll see if that little upstart from Stevenage is any good....."_
Whatever your reasons and I sincerely hope they aren't what I think they might be, you're very wide of the mark, the "little upstart has done very well and on pure ability which is why he was signed up by Mercedes as a kid, He didn't have a rich daddy who bought his way into racing unlike numerous others, talented of not, read Verstappen, Rosburgh, Perez, Norris and Mick Schumacher as examples.
I suggest you do a little research before spouting rot.


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## Lons (3 Jul 2021)

Back to the footie.

There are rumours floating around today that the Ukraine v England match is to be cancelled due to one of the Ukraine players being tested positive for Covid. 
Apparently it's that left back Ticklii Chestikov.


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## Ithica (3 Jul 2021)

Its 650pm in France (an hour ahead of GMT) only 2 hours before Kick Off. Only 2 hours left for more interesting fun facts and figures about F1 and the endless debate in the pits - which is better, petrol or chip shop oil? If there isnt enough time to cover all the points we can resume after the match tonight. In the meantime don't forget the competition - what was the real name of the 'Flying Mantuan'? Answers on a post card to marked 'The Competition', Peartree Productions, Caxton Avenue, Norwich. NF23 4OL.


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## Noel (3 Jul 2021)

Did Ukraine win?


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jul 2021)

I don't know. If you dislike football and tennis and you're not gay there appears to be little on terrestrial TV for you.


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## brocher (3 Jul 2021)

Well I really enjoyed Raducanu's tennis match today. They joy of her play was fabulous to watch. Oh to be as young as her again! I'm not a big footie fan as Scotland always fails to achieve its potential! So tennis is my fallback!


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## whatknot (3 Jul 2021)

You will of course be overjoyed to know it was 4 - 0 to England and well deserved



Noel said:


> Did Ukraine win?


----------



## Cabinetman (3 Jul 2021)

I don’t follow football so please don’t pay too much attention to this comment, but it must be very galling to be beaten four nil by our lot, or is this lot a whole lot better than our last lot?


----------



## alan895 (4 Jul 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I don’t follow football so please don’t pay too much attention to this comment, but it must be very galling to be beaten four nil by our lot, or is this lot a whole lot better than our last lot?


No idea but with the amount of money they get paid according to this they ought to be pretty good.


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## penyrolewen (4 Jul 2021)

boggy said:


> I would like to make the same complaint to the BBC Radio 4 coverage of cricket. This bizarre sport is declining in popularity as it is too complicated and takes too long. Who can imagine a sport which can be played for 5 days and not have a definitive result? Fortunately I have an internet radio so I can tune into the normal Radio 4 output, but in the workshop this does not apply.


You must have a very old radio. Test match special is only on long wave, they broadcast their normal schedule on FM. My van (2009) doesn’t even have LW. 
I doubt anyone likes everything that is broadcast on tv/radio. Luckily there are other channels…


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## Ithica (4 Jul 2021)

penyrolewen said:


> You must have a very old radio. Test match special is only on long wave, they broadcast their normal schedule on FM. My van (2009) doesn’t even have LW.
> I doubt anyone likes everything that is broadcast on tv/radio. Luckily there are other channels…


Try .......Guerilla Cricket for irreverent but committed and professional live test match cricket coverage. A post modern alternative to the OK in small doses Aggers, Tuffers et al. Live cricket commentary | Guerilla Cricket


----------



## Blackswanwood (4 Jul 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I don’t follow football so please don’t pay too much attention to this comment, but it must be very galling to be beaten four nil by our lot, or is this lot a whole lot better than our last lot?


Depends what you mean by last lot.

We got to the semifinals in the World Cup and the club level records of all players is pretty awesome. I’m sure the Ukraine team are nursing bruised egos this morning but hopefully they also feel proud as they got further than most would have predicted and gave football fans everywhere some great entertainment over the past few weeks.


----------



## Lons (4 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I don't know. If you dislike football and tennis and you're not gay there appears to be little on terrestrial TV for you.


So can't you get the 100 plus freeview channels in the Cornish desert Phil ?


----------



## whatknot (4 Jul 2021)

Not to mention iplayer, and various online services, ITVhub, Quest etc etc 

Lots of programs are dross of course but we are light years ahead of what we had years back

And even in our Cornish desert we get freeview ;-)




Lons said:


> So can't you get the 100 plus freeview channels in the Cornish desert Phil ?


----------



## paulrbarnard (4 Jul 2021)

Lons said:


> So can't you get the 100 plus freeview channels in the Cornish desert Phil ?


It’s free for a reason…


----------



## JAW911 (4 Jul 2021)

Lons said:


> Hmm...I missed this post earlier and it's nonsensical imo.. The current crop of F1 cars are severely restricted on the type of "driver aids" they are allowed to have. The following are all banned.
> 
> * ABS (banned a long time ago)
> * Traction control
> ...


And don’t forget Stroll!


----------



## Phil Pascoe (4 Jul 2021)

Lons said:


> So can't you get the 100 plus freeview channels in the Cornish desert Phil ?


I watch all TV on my desk top. I don't even know how to switch the TV on.


----------



## J-G (4 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I watch all TV on my desk top. I don't even know how to switch the TV on.


I don't even have a TV !


----------



## Daniel2 (4 Jul 2021)

Well, I must say that the supporters (if they're still around), do seem
awfully quiet considering last night's result...


----------



## doctor Bob (4 Jul 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Well, I must say that the supporters (if they're still around), do seem
> awfully quiet considering last night's result...



What do you want me to do?


----------



## Daniel2 (4 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> What do you want me to do?



You could share your joy with us.
I'm still happy for the England team.


----------



## Lons (4 Jul 2021)

As supporters we're all very happy at was was not only a great score line but a polished performance, but that would go straight over the heads of those who don't like football, that's up to them and there's little point in preaching to hardened sceptics, I for one don't care and will as usual be glued to the screen along with the millions of other supporters for the match on Wednesday. *Come on England*.


----------



## Jacob (4 Jul 2021)

I've been watching the Tour. Brilliant dramatic stuff as they get into the mountains.


----------



## Spectric (4 Jul 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> but it must be very galling to be beaten four nil by our lot, or is this lot a whole lot better than our last lot?


No one remains great all the time and this year it seems the opposition must have fallen to a low enough level so we stood a chance, or perhaps they were so accustomed to our usual abysmal performances that they just turned up thinking we are not very good but I bet they are worse.


----------



## Spectric (4 Jul 2021)

whatknot said:


> but we are light years ahead of what we had years back


Depends if you prefer quantity or quality.


----------



## scooby (4 Jul 2021)

Missed F1 today for the first time in a long time..cant say I was bothered. At least the tour is going well and its great to see Cavendish winning again.


----------



## whatknot (5 Jul 2021)

Despite the plethora of life style programs and other rubbish on various channels, there is now the opportunity to play a vast number of programs on demand at a time that suits you 

Days gone by, Top of the Pops was 7pm on a Thursday (if memory serves) and if you missed it, that was that, now we can watch much of the content of TV as and when it suits us 

And then there are DVDs and other recorded media plus the likes of youtube

So yes we are light years ahead in what we can now watch compared to years ago




Spectric said:


> Depends if you prefer quantity or quality.


----------



## Nelly111s (5 Jul 2021)

penyrolewen said:


> You must have a very old radio. Test match special is only on long wave, they broadcast their normal schedule on FM. My van (2009) doesn’t even have LW.
> I doubt anyone likes everything that is broadcast on tv/radio. Luckily there are other channels…


TMS is on Radio 5 Live Sports Extra on DAB radio, too


----------



## Glitch (5 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> No one remains great all the time and this year it seems the opposition must have fallen to a low enough level so we stood a chance, or perhaps they were so accustomed to our usual abysmal performances that they just turned up thinking we are not very good but I bet they are worse.


Best team usually wins.
England are playing well. We have a good squad.
Haven’t let a goal in yet
Rated way above Ukraine.
Tournament football often throws up surprises. You always need a bit of luck along the way.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2021)

Cricket on the radio always reminds me of the early '70s, lying on the beach in blazing sunshine (most of my waking hours outside of work) with cricket on the radio a little way away. Radio one, radio two and radio three a little way away in other directions.


----------



## Spectric (5 Jul 2021)

whatknot said:


> and if you missed it, that was that,


But we did have the old VHS / Beta video recorders.


----------



## Distinterior (5 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> But we did have the old VHS / Beta video recorders.



.....Does anyone remember Phillips Video 2000....??? It went the way of the Dodo pretty soon after it was introduced but my mates parents had one and finding a tape in that format for their machine from the video shop was rather a narrow selection....


----------



## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2021)

or the video disc player?


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Jul 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I don’t follow football so please don’t pay too much attention to this comment, but it must be very galling to be beaten four nil by our lot, or is this lot a whole lot better than our last lot?



Our last lot of what or when, we reached the semi finals of the world cup, did very well in the nations cup.
I'm sure as an intelligent man you must realise that players make the team and players peak for about 10 years, therefore the team changes and sometimes improves and sometimes diminish in quality. It's not rocket science to comprehend this, if it didn't happen we would have won every world cup since 1966, only one team would have won F1 title etc.

You lot haven't seen anything yet, wait until we win it........................ then you can moan about sir Harry Kane, Sir Mcquire, Sir etc etc


----------



## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2021)

Quite rightly.


----------



## doctor Bob (6 Jul 2021)

So I'm still in my predictor league for this tournament, 4 of us left, started with 63.
I have gone 2-0 to italy and 3-0 to england, see what happens. My oppo has also gone Italy and England but with different scores, with the way it works I have "carried the advantage" from previous rounds so he has to get a result spot on otherwise I'm through to the final. He has 2-1 for both matches (italy and england to win)


----------



## Lons (7 Jul 2021)

A cracking match last night Bob even though you did get the result wrong, I thought Spain were going to win tbh. However much I support England I feel Italy will lift the trophy this year.


----------



## Jacob (7 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> There is way to much coverage of people kicking a ball around on Tv at the moment and it is the euro's, has no one told them about brexit? Yes it is one of my pet hates, I hate football and avoid like it is covid. Who else thinks the same or is everyone stuck watching them kicking a ball around, then running around pretending to be an aeroplane that then has undercarriage failure.


Tour de France is brilliant at the mo. Put your telly on now!
Mont Ventoux twice in one day!
Bin there dunnit myself once but as a leisurely 100km Audax - half the distance they are doing today and less than half their speed! Stopped at Chalet Reynard for a beer.
Good to see first black S. African in the race. He was out early but will be back next year all being well. Nic Dlamini wins his personal Tour de France BLM!!


----------



## whatknot (7 Jul 2021)

Well just one more game to have to put up with


----------



## Lons (8 Jul 2021)

Nobody has to "put up with" anything they don't want to. Switch it off, change channel, there are loads of choices even if old repeats, stream something, watch a film, go for a walk or into your workshop, there's an astonishing choice out there. Failing that why not organize your sock drawer.   

It's on, has a huge following and worldwide interest, more so that much of the other stuff on radio and TV so unfortunately you'll have to lump it, grumbling will change nothing.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2021)

Change channel? If only it were that simple. I don't object to its being on ............... I just object to its being on everywhere. This morning's BBC, football. ITV, football. LBC, football. TalkRadio, football - and they have two other sports only stations. I'm not looking forward to the years of inquests when they lose, either.  
Still, if you don't like football there's hours of tennis. I don't know BBC and ITV didn't just dedicate one channel to 24 hour football - everyone would have been happy.


----------



## Jacob (8 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Change channel? If only it were that simple. I don't object to its being on ............... I just object to its being on everywhere. This morning's BBC, football. ITV, football. LBC, football. TalkRadio, football - and they have two other sports only stations. I'm not looking forward to the years of inquests when they lose, either.
> Still, if you don't like football there's hours of tennis. I don't know BBC and ITV didn't just dedicate one channel to 24 hour football - everyone would have been happy.


Tour de France. On all day, one whole week to go, in the mountains. It's turning into a classic. https://www.itv.com/hub/tour-de-france/1a7000a0231
It's quite possible to completely ignore football!


----------



## doctor Bob (8 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Tour de France. On all day, one whole week to go, in the mountains. It's turning into a classic. https://www.itv.com/hub/tour-de-france/1a7000a0231
> It's quite possible to completely ignore football!



Surely to ignore it, you wouldn't read this thread?


----------



## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Tour de France. On all day, one whole week to go, in the mountains. It's turning into a classic. https://www.itv.com/hub/tour-de-france/1a7000a0231
> It's quite possible to completely ignore football!


There are very few things I find more boring than football. Cricket and cycling are two of them.


----------



## JobandKnock (8 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I'm not looking forward to the years of inquests when they lose, either.


In that case let's be thankful that they won!


----------



## whatknot (8 Jul 2021)

You seem to have grasped the wrong end of the stick ;-) 

I was just saying to the moaners that there is just one more game for *them* to put up with 

I am more than happy to have footy on much more than we presently do, the more the merrier, given I can't afford all the highly expensive pay channels, even happier to see England in a major final for the first time in 55 years 

Footy has to be better than the endless repeats of murder she wrote, midsummer murders etc etc 

Looking at the schedules on most channels you could be forgiven for thinking you were back in the 70's, or 80's, The Sweeney, The Saint, Perry Mason, The Bill etc etc etc

I don't follow either cycling or tennis but many do so whats the point of complaining



Lons said:


> Nobody has to "put up with" anything they don't want to. Switch it off, change channel, there are loads of choices even if old repeats, stream something, watch a film, go for a walk or into your workshop, there's an astonishing choice out there. Failing that why not organize your sock drawer.
> 
> It's on, has a huge following and worldwide interest, more so that much of the other stuff on radio and TV so unfortunately you'll have to lump it, grumbling will change nothing.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2021)

Footy has to be better than the endless repeats of murder she wrote, midsummer murders etc etc

Looking at the schedules on most channels you could be forgiven for thinking you were back in the 70's, or 80's, The Sweeney, The Saint, Perry Mason, The Bill etc etc etc 

Well. no, it hasn't but by the bye. Why didn't someone think to replace those channels with football and leave the mainstream channels alone?


----------



## whatknot (8 Jul 2021)

Because far more people watch football/tennis & cycling etc than all the endless repeats on the main stream channels (which can also be watched on catch up in the vast majority of cases)

What worthy programs are you missing that have been replaced by sport? (sport has far less coverage on free to view channels than some seem think)

Well. no, it hasn't but by the bye. Why didn't someone think to replace those channels with football and leave the mainstream channels alone?
[/QUOTE]


----------



## paulrbarnard (8 Jul 2021)

whatknot said:


> (sport has far less coverage on free to view channels than some seem think)


Largely due to the greed of the sports...


----------



## Blackswanwood (8 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why didn't someone think to replace those channels with football and leave the mainstream channels alone?


I'd guess it has something to do with the vast majority of the audience wanting to watch the football so it makes sense to show it on the most commonly available channels.


----------



## whatknot (8 Jul 2021)

Completely agree on that point



paulrbarnard said:


> Largely due to the greed of the sports...


----------



## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> I'd guess it has something to do with the vast majority of the audience wanting to watch the football so it makes sense to show it on the most commonly available channels.


I didn't realise the majority of the audience couldn't get ITV2 and 3, BBC2 and 4 etc.
How do you know "the vast majority" want to watch it? I haven't spoken to single person today so far who watched it last night (I accept I'm in a football free County). They said 34million watched it - have they spies in everyone's houses? There is no way they could conceivably know.


----------



## JobandKnock (8 Jul 2021)

I didn't watch it, either. Just saying that as "moral support". But then I rarely watch TV any more


----------



## doctor Bob (8 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I didn't realise the majority of the audience couldn't get ITV2 and 3, BBC2 and 4 etc.
> How do you know "the vast majority" want to watch it? I haven't spoken to single person today so far who watched it last night (I accept I'm in a football free County). They said 34million watched it - have they spies in everyone's houses? There is no way they could conceivably know.



well it's an estimate based on good factual input. It may have been as low as 31mil or as high as 37mil, but they won't be far off, but certainly more than "homes under the hammer" or "garden digathon".
I don't know anyone who didn't watch it, maybe we mix with different types of people. Birds of a feather and all that.


----------



## Daniel2 (8 Jul 2021)

I found myself drawn in, and watched it with a couple of friends.
Can't tell you the last time I watched a match.


----------



## Spectric (8 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> In that case let's be thankful that they won


I suppose if they win then people might stop bleating on about how good they were in 1966 when they last won, it may actually be cyclic and they win every 55 years.


----------



## Spectric (8 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> How do you know "the vast majority" want to watch it?


That is something that really shows total ignorance on the part of the broadcasters, how do they know what we all want to watch because they always seem to fail to deliver routinely and believe we actually prefer watching the same programs over and over again, just a shame that we cannot repeat our current tv license for another year.


----------



## Blackswanwood (8 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I didn't realise the majority of the audience couldn't get ITV2 and 3, BBC2 and 4 etc.
> How do you know "the vast majority" want to watch it? I haven't spoken to single person today so far who watched it last night (I accept I'm in a football free County). They said 34million watched it - have they spies in everyone's houses? There is no way they could conceivably know.


They probably can get the other channels just as can the minority who don't watch the football and want to watch something different instead.

As to how viewing figures are calculated :





__





How do UK TV viewing figures and ratings work? What's the difference between overnight viewing figures and consolidated figures? | Radio Times


How TV ratings are determined by 5,300 homes – and why Netflix never release any viewing figures



www.radiotimes.com





You may want to save it to read on Sunday night while the rest of us watch the football


----------



## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> I suppose if they win then people might stop bleating on about how good they were in 1966 when they last won, it may actually be cyclic and they win every 55 years.


I didn't watch it in 1966 either.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> As to how viewing figures are calculated :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Precisely. 5,300 homes. Where? If they picked 5,300 homes here I doubt 25% watched it.


----------



## Lons (8 Jul 2021)

whatknot said:


> You seem to have grasped the wrong end of the stick ;-)
> 
> I was just saying to the moaners that there is just one more game for *them* to put up with
> 
> ...


*I apologize for that whatnot as I did interpret it differently and I was clearly wrong.*

What gets me a bit is why people bother to constantly moan but I guess if it wasn't football then something else would be the target. My missus can't stand football and wouldn't watch if she was paid, ( I did take her to an NUFC match before we were married so that's likely why  ), but she happily watches something else as there is plenty of choice even if on catch up or something recorded, on the other hand she watches all the gory medical progs being an ex nurse whist I have no desire whatsoever to gawp at somebody's innards. 

It's completely wrong imo that the vast majority of decent sport has been hijacked by subscription channels and whilst I very reluctantly fork out for Sky sports I'm really pleased to see international sport on terrestrial TV so that anyone can watch it if they so wish, it's one competition every couple of years not every month. Anyone who suggests that football, golf, F1 etc isn't watched by millions is in cuckoo land as far as I'm concerned, if it wasn't then Sky, Amazon, BT etc. wouldn't be falling over themselves to pay £millions for the rights.


----------



## Lons (8 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I didn't watch it in 1966 either.


No forums internet then either, just as well maybe Phil


----------



## Terry - Somerset (8 Jul 2021)

Free to air commercial TV shows sport because they have an audience who want to watch it. Advertising revenue which funds their programming is very audience driven.

Therein lies the problem. Advertising revenue available to the TV companies is being spread over an ever larger number of channels - not just TV, but social media, press, magazines, internet search engines etc.

So TV companies need to find a way to limit costs whilst retaining an audience. High profile events command equally high fees to get the broadcasting rights - but football is fairly global. 

The other end of the spectrum - repeat of old shows often. Smaller (daytime) audiences for most but very low costs.

The BBC is an oddball - taxpayer funded through the obselete concept of a licence fee and broadcasting goals which are less than transparent - what is a public service vs me too, low quality programming.


----------



## Fergie 307 (9 Jul 2021)

I do like a good football game but get fed up of them writhing about in apparent agony at the slightest little tap. Geraint Thomas gets knocked off his bike on the tour de France. Doctor turns up and pops his dislocated shoulder back in, and he's back on his bike for another 100odd miles. Another guy rode most of the stage after a crash with broken bones in both arms/hands. These guys are "Proper 'ard"


----------



## Glitch (9 Jul 2021)

A little top up of lost EPO and off you go.


----------



## doctor Bob (9 Jul 2021)

I find it very hard to believe that cycling became clean overnight.


----------



## MikeJhn (9 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Footy has to be better than the endless repeats of murder she wrote, midsummer murders etc etc
> 
> Looking at the schedules on most channels you could be forgiven for thinking you were back in the 70's, or 80's, The Sweeney, The Saint, Perry Mason, The Bill etc etc etc


Have to admit that the acting on the football pitch is better than those programmes listed above.


----------



## MikeJhn (9 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I find it very hard to believe that cycling became clean overnight.


Did you know that Chris Froome was tested over five hundred times during his tour win, they woke him on more than one occasion at four in the morning to test him even after the tests at the end of a stage, one of the most tested cyclists is Mark Cavendish, six times in one day this year, the French do not like to loose, except if they are being given a donation from the likes of Lance to the Swiss bank account, Oh sorry I meant the UCI benevolent fund, why is it that most of the sport controlling bodies have their HO in Switzerland???????? Rhetorical Question.


----------



## paulrbarnard (9 Jul 2021)

Cavendish just equaled Merx' stage win record. Now that is history being made and the Belgians upset too. There is a chance of him beating the record by the Champs Elysee


----------



## furnace (10 Jul 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I do like a good football game but get fed up of them writhing about in apparent agony at the slightest little tap. Geraint Thomas gets knocked off his bike on the tour de France. Doctor turns up and pops his dislocated shoulder back in, and he's back on his bike for another 100odd miles. Another guy rode most of the stage after a crash with broken bones in both arms/hands. These guys are "Proper 'ard"



Do you mean like this?


----------



## Fergie 307 (10 Jul 2021)

Interesting how many times you see the "injured" player leap to his feet and rejoin the game as soon as he realises that the referee isn't impressed with his antics. Was it Rashford who caused a stir by having a large AK 47 tattooed on his leg? Someone wrote in to the Torygraph to say how extraordinary that he should subject himself to such a procedure, given that professional footballers ordinarily seem to have such a low pain threshold.


----------



## Fergie 307 (10 Jul 2021)

Glitch said:


> A little top up of lost EPO and off you go.


Cynic! But given how long Mr Armstrong got away with it you do have to wonder.


----------



## Noel (10 Jul 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Did you know that Chris Froome was tested over five hundred times during his tour win, they woke him on more than one occasion at four in the morning to test him even after the tests at the end of a stage....................



Where have we heard that sort of statement before...............
I don't think Froome or Sky were clean.


----------



## paulrbarnard (10 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> Where have we heard that sort of statement before...............
> I don't think Froome or Sky were clean.


Are unfounded accusations permitted on the forum? Perhaps we should ask a moderator.


----------



## Spectric (10 Jul 2021)

You here a lot about the riders trying to cheat with various chemicals and potions but what about the bikes, are they regulated or scrutinised .


----------



## Noel (10 Jul 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Are unfounded accusations permitted on the forum? Perhaps we should ask a moderator.



Unfounded? Right....
Jiffy bags, corticosteroids (triamcinolone etc), abuse of TUEs etc and goodness knows what else.
In my opinion Froome, Wiggins and Sky were dirty. Ineos Grenadiers ? Hopefully Brailsford isn't taking his marginal gains concept as far as he did with his previous team. 
Not the only ones no doubt and as @Spectric mentions mechanical doping is a big issue.


----------



## doctor Bob (10 Jul 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Are unfounded accusations permitted on the forum? Perhaps we should ask a moderator.



report me as well, I don't think they were clean, I also don't think one of our olympic gold medal winning runner is clean either but that's just my opinion. I could name others, people who were very very average at their chosen sport yet in the matter of 2 years became top of their game.


----------



## Spectric (10 Jul 2021)

If it is good enough for the Russians! Have they tested our football team yet, perhaps it could explain some of their strange behavior, by which I mean wining.


----------



## doctor Bob (10 Jul 2021)

Remember the old joke about the female Russian javalin thrower who goes the the doctor complaining about developing a hairy chest?

Doctor asks her how far down the hair goes?

Reply: "right down to my bollloxs Doc"


----------



## Terry - Somerset (11 Jul 2021)

Elite sport is about lots of money. Competitors are under huge pressure to be successful - the difference is a very comfortable future vs getting a real job when the body is no longer willing.

There may be a strong argument for having no drug control regime - basically a free for all. There would be no ambiguity, no need for drug testing, no need for subterfuge, no need to hide what they are doing. It is strictly who gets past the post first.

It would make sport into a potential freak show - but would that matter. All competitors, and the public could be confident they were all playing by the same (lack of) rules. 

There would still be winners and losers - sporting success would be a tribute to the skill and determination of the competitor *and the medical support.* Pretending that drug testing regimes actually work has been trashed over the years. Remember the founder of the modern Olympics: 

*The founder of the Olympics, Baron Pierre de Coubertin, said "The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not winning but taking part; the essential thing in life is not conquering but fighting well."*


----------



## Jester129 (11 Jul 2021)

England will lose tonight, simply because Italy are better at cheating, they've been doing it for a lot longer!
On saying that, EVERY football team cheats.


----------



## MikeJhn (11 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> Where have we heard that sort of statement before...............
> I don't think Froome or Sky were clean.


How else do you prove or diss-prove a team or individual are clean, but by testing using the most up to date knowledge, please enlighten us how.

Bikes have a minimum weight they have to be over, other than that the UCI just ban anything they think is not in accordance with their wish's, look up Superman position, or Chris Boardman's hour record not allowed.


----------



## whatknot (11 Jul 2021)

Personally I think you are wasting your breath, those that believe its all a fix will continue to do so



MikeJhn said:


> How else do you prove or diss-prove a team or individual are clean, but by testing using the most up to date knowledge, please enlighten us how.
> 
> Bikes have a minimum weight they have to be over, other than that the UCI just ban anything they think is not in accordance with their wish's, look up Superman position, or Chris Boardman's hour record not allowed.


----------



## selectortone (11 Jul 2021)

Any more of this talk and I'll be losing faith in WWE wrestling.


----------



## Jacob (11 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> Any more of this talk and I'll be losing faith in WWE wrestling.


Some Snooker champions look suspiciously tranquillised.


----------



## Fergie 307 (11 Jul 2021)

whatknot said:


> Personally I think you are wasting your breath, those that believe its all a fix will continue to do so


I think the problem is that historically we have seen so many occasions where it turned out that teams had just discovered new methods of doping that were undetectable by the current tests. Not surprising that some people should wonder if that is what is still going on. Personally I very much hope not, but I think it is a perfectly legitimate concern. Cycling in particular is a victim of its own history in that repect.


----------



## Spectric (11 Jul 2021)

Not long now till it is all over and maybe some normality will return and then we can see how much virus spreading has been done, and then win or lose there will be a lot of deppressed people out there as the realisation dawns on them that nothing has changed, today is no different than the day before and there has been nothing gained by anyone kicking a ball around.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Jul 2021)

My wife this morning - "I don't really know which will be worse, their winning or their losing - we'll get it stuffed down our throats for months, whichever."


----------



## Terry - Somerset (11 Jul 2021)

It would be easy to view elite sport as a simple contest between performance enhancing drug development and drug testing technology. This is probably unfair - I am sure not all athletes indulge. 

However it is not uncommon for evidence post event that drugs played a part in success. It is a matter of faith, not fact, whether a victory is achieved through undetected drug assisted performance, or real world class performance.


----------



## Jacob (11 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> It would be easy to view elite sport as a simple contest between performance enhancing drug development and drug testing technology. This is probably unfair - I am sure not all athletes indulge.
> 
> However it is not uncommon for evidence post event that drugs played a part in success. It is a matter of faith, not fact, whether a victory is achieved through undetected drug assisted performance, or real world class performance.


Problem is; for most of us drugs have probably played a part in the fact that we are alive at all, which gives us a huge unfair advantage over those less fortunate!
Often not clear which are essential for life and well-being, compared to extra performance enhancement.


----------



## D_W (11 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> It would be easy to view elite sport as a simple contest between performance enhancing drug development and drug testing technology. This is probably unfair - I am sure not all athletes indulge.



The ones who don't cheat in any endurance sport (or strength sport) can just decide they don't want to compete, then. I doubt much of anything at that level is clean (and only through introduction to reality on youtube, etc, have we gotten a better view). For example, "some bodybuilders are probably clean". No, none who are competitive are. "some strongmen are probably clean, and same with powerlifters". No, none are. 

"But my hero from the 50s and 60s was just fat and strong and was probably clean". No, they weren't. The competitive fields in anything where strength and/or endurance is the main point are pretty much dirty across the board. The genetically gifted still rise to the top - they just have to cheat to, like everyone else. 

The messages of "there are only some cheaters" are just there for the naive and to please advertisers ("your hero" doing or using something that can be advertised while they dope in the background makes whatever they endorse more appealing. If you know they dope and they just admit it outright, then your urge to buy is reduced - that's important given the role advertisers play (they fund the sport so you can watch it for "free"). 

The entire field of testing is set up not to actually catch people. It's set up to catch some or appear more legitimate so that you don't lose faith in sport. If they actually wanted to catch everyone, they would catch more.


----------



## D_W (11 Jul 2021)

There's another point to this, too - once you see the accomplishments of doped competitors, nobody really wants to see the sport again undoped (which it probably hasn't been for three quarters of a century in endurance, or longer).



Each different organization has loopholes. In the NFL, testing was done for testosterone, stimulants, etc, but not for HGH for a long time. Conte talks about other testing loopholes above, and then goes further in another video and mentions that at one point, Marion Jones tested positive and the USOC (it may have been another org) wanted to bargain with another athlete to find one positive and Jones not because it would be more valuable to leave Jones in the contest (valuable for viewership and advertisers).

To think that anyone can compete clean is extremely naive.


----------



## Noel (11 Jul 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> How else do you prove or diss-prove a team or individual are clean, but by testing using the most up to date knowledge, please enlighten us how.
> 
> Bikes have a minimum weight they have to be over, other than that the UCI just ban anything they think is not in accordance with their wish's, look up Superman position, or Chris Boardman's hour record not allowed.



Explain the Jiffy bags, the TUEs?
As said earlier amazing how some riders spend there early years riding oh so average and are suddenly Grand Tour contenders/winners.
Mechanical doping is assisted power, not bikes under 6.8kg. Not that the minimum limit is much use, pedals, drive mechs, cages etc soon brings a 600g frame up to spec:

Bauke Mollema's Trek Emonda 







#Azzurri


----------



## Chippyjoe (11 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Not long now till it is all over and maybe some normality will return and then we can see how much virus spreading has been done, and then win or lose there will be a lot of deppressed people out there as the realisation dawns on them that nothing has changed, today is no different than the day before and there has been nothing gained by anyone kicking a ball around.



I bet you are a real wow at parties.
Yes we all get you don't like football thank the lord you are in the minority.


----------



## paulrbarnard (11 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> Explain the Jiffy bags, the TUEs?
> As said earlier amazing how some riders spend there early years riding oh so average and are suddenly Grand Tour contenders/winners.
> Mechanical doping is assisted power, not bikes under 6.8kg. Not that the minimum limit is much use, pedals, drive mechs, cages etc soon brings a 600g frame up to spec:
> 
> ...


Yeah those tour bikes are heavy compared to what a rich amateur can have.
The irony is I’m on a diet and have lost more than the entire weight of my road bike in the last three months. I still have another entire bike to go before I’m at the median weight for my height.


----------



## doctor Bob (11 Jul 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Yeah those tour bikes are heavy compared to what a rich amateur can have.
> The irony is I’m on a diet and have lost more than the entire weight of my road bike in the last three months. I still have another entire bike to go before I’m at the median weight for my height.



Yes this makes me chuckle seeing amateurs riding £6k plus bikes who are a bit chunky, I think a diet is more worth while.


----------



## Spectric (11 Jul 2021)

Chippyjoe said:


> Yes we all get you don't like football thank the lord you are in the minority.


No, it is thank god that it is only the minority spectrum that can get excited about someone kicking a ball, it is far more exciting when you solve some mathematical problem or resolve some obscure bug in a software program, remember the saying "simple things please ......................".


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## Spectric (11 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes this makes me chuckle seeing amateurs riding £6k plus bikes who are a bit chunky


And the ones who will spend a thousand to save the weight of a can of fizzy drink, as you say lose the weight first as it is the cheaper option.


----------



## Noel (11 Jul 2021)

England fans, Leicester Sq earlier today

Warning, image may cause something or other : )



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6BdnR0WYAQeUHQ?format=jpg&name=small





#Azzurri


----------



## paulrbarnard (11 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> And the ones who will spend a thousand to save the weight of a can of fizzy drink, as you say lose the weight first as it is the cheaper option.


Yes it is the best way indeed. 
I achieved my personal best up Cheddar Gorge weighing 70kg. At 84kg, during a less than svelte stage, my time almost tripled for around the same average power output. 
I’m losing weight now so I can get back out on the road bike. I live in one of the highest villages on the Mendips so whichever way I ride it’s always a tough climb back home.


----------



## Fergie 307 (11 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> No, it is thank god that it is only the minority spectrum that can get excited about someone kicking a ball, it is far more exciting when you solve some mathematical problem or resolve some obscure bug in a software program, remember the saying "simple things please ......................".


Oh to be so humble


----------



## selectortone (11 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> No, it is thank god that it is only the minority spectrum that can get excited about someone kicking a ball, it is far more exciting when you solve some mathematical problem or resolve some obscure bug in a software program, remember the saying "simple things please ......................".


Whatever happened to 'live and let live?


----------



## Blackswanwood (11 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> No, it is thank god that it is only the minority spectrum that can get excited about someone kicking a ball, it is far more exciting when you solve some mathematical problem or resolve some obscure bug in a software program, remember the saying "simple things please ......................".


Great - well you crack on with your algebra while the vast majority of people enjoy the match


----------



## Trainee neophyte (11 Jul 2021)

I'm more entertained by the woke insanity of allowing a woman with testicles to compete, perfectly sensibly, as a woman, while denying women without testicle to compete because they naturally (allegedly) produce more testosterone than the woman with testicles. I'm glad it's not my gordian knot to unravel. Currently 1-0, and I'm pretending to watch whilst actually talking about testosterone levels. 









Testosterone levels keep Namibia duo from 400M


Two 18-year-old female runners from Namibia won't be allowed to run in the 400 meters at the Tokyo Olympics after medical tests showed they have high natural testosterone levels.




www.espn.com













Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics


NZ weightlifter Laurel Hubbard is headed for Tokyo but critics say she has an unfair advantage.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## JobandKnock (11 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> Whatever happened to 'live and let live?


Yes, indeed. Maybe I'm also a wow at parties because I have never really been that interested in a bunch of overgrown kids (and second rate drama queens) kicking a bag of wind around a patch of grass. Each to his own.

PS It doesn't help that I drew North Macedonia in the sweep at work...


----------



## Spectric (11 Jul 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I'm more entertained by the woke insanity of allowing a woman with testicles to compete,


There is something fundamentally wrong with that statement, a woman cannot have testicles just like a man cannot have a pair of mamary glands, Ok I accept that some men shaped like space hoppers may have a pair of fat sacks that may bare some resemblance to boobs but they are just fat. People need to get things back into normal reality and learn the birds & bee's and realise that there are male, female and the right angle brigade who are bad workers because they abuse their tools, everything else has some form of autism, just a miswiring of the brain that causes confusion and stewed hormones.


----------



## Noel (11 Jul 2021)

Ah well, another chance in 2076.

Forza Italia

Coming home? To Rome.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (11 Jul 2021)

Football came home, took one look at the weather, and forked off back to the Italian riviera where the sun shines and the ladies are attractive.


----------



## scooby (11 Jul 2021)

I've been in my workshop most of the evening. Suddenly, fireworks start going off so I presumed England had won. Was a bit surprised to hear they'd lost.
Not going to pretend I know anything about football or I'm interested in the slightest but I do feel a bit sorry for Rashford. He was on North West news a lot last year for free school meals. He seems like a decent bloke.


----------



## RobinBHM (12 Jul 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I'm more entertained by the woke insanity of allowing a woman with testicles to compete, perfectly sensibly, as a woman, while denying women without testicle to compete because they naturally (allegedly) produce more testosterone than the woman with testicles. I'm glad it's not my gordian knot to unravel. Currently 1-0, and I'm pretending to watch whilst actually talking about testosterone levels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s a load of bolox


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

I found myself watching it, just in case I was missing something as it has been cracked up as such a big event.
Bloody tedious game! Miserable players all trying to trip each other up like school kids, deadly serious managers, insane hysterical fans, so few goals. Imagine watching a cricket match with the rule set so that a team would just make 2 or 3 runs in the whole days play, with thousands of fans shouting continuously at the tops of their voices!
It was obvious the Italians were doing better by far except for the fluke goal at the start so I was pleased that they won, in spite of the tedium.
Seems the whole thing is about the shouting, the mayhem, riots on the streets, litter, face paint. Thats what they want - an excuse to go barking mad, but briefly and safely in a mob!
Tour de France OTH was utterly brilliant, as usual!


----------



## whatknot (12 Jul 2021)

And so speaks a self professed football fan (not) 

England played well and deserved to win, had you taken your blinkers off you might have seen that 

For tedium, how about the tour de France 

Hows that for a fair playing field ;-)




Jacob said:


> I found myself watching it, just in case I was missing something as it has been cracked up as such a big event.
> Bloody tedious game! Miserable players all trying to trip each other up like school kids, deadly serious managers, insane hysterical fans, so few goals. Imagine watching a cricket match with the rule set so that a team would just make 2 or 3 runs in the whole days play, with thousands of fans shouting continuously at the tops of their voices!
> It was obvious the Italians were doing better by far except for the fluke goal at the start so I was pleased that they won, in spite of the tedium.
> Tour de France OTH was utterly brilliant, as usual!


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2021)

I'll be even more fair. They're both tedious.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

whatknot said:


> ...
> England played well and deserved to win, had you taken your blinkers off you might have seen that
> ....


It seemed to me that the Italians were up in English for a lot of the time making near misses with goals. But you hardly saw much of the Italian goalie because nobody got near him for long. Was I missing something?


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I'll be even more fair. They're both tedious.


Yebbut at least you see some spectacular landscape! Apparently the French subsidise the race to promote tourism, which seems a smart move.
Much more interesting than looking at massed ranks of fat shouty blokes with George crosses painted on their faces!
Though the tour has a lot of hysterical fans but not quite as obtrusive.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

and here they come, the slagger off'ers, who know nowt, profess to knowing nowt yesterday, knew nowt about it for 70 odd years but now having seen one game in their life they know all about it, OK see you again in 40 years.
Few names on the list are no surprise, bloody know it alls, as always, things don't change.
Maybe they would enjoy it more if there was a split screen shot of the himalayan mountains or wilderbeast roaming the Serengetti reserve.............

This particular type of person and they come from all walks of life seem determined to try and spoil it for others, it's a beautiful game, win or lose but why do the sticky beaks seem determined to poke their noses in, giving an opinion on something they profess to have zero knowledge on, it's just beyond me


----------



## scooby (12 Jul 2021)




----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yebbut at least you see some spectacular landscape! Apparently the French subsidise the race to promote tourism, which seems a smart move


They've done it in Yorkshire as well -Tour de France first stage in Yorkshire (2014) then on the back of that the Tour de Yorkshire (2015 onwards). A friend of mine who used to live in Cragg Vale said there were so many people outside his house in 2014 that he couldn't get out of his front door for several hours. He watched the "procession" going past by removing an upstairs sash and hanging out. He said it took the pelleton only a minute or two to pass... Frankly, I'd rather be on the mountain watching the GP riders go past (IoM TT), but I can understand why others would think that was fairly bonkers, especially on a wet day (and I've had a few of those on the Island, only made better by a post race visit to the the Dog's Home)


----------



## MikeJhn (12 Jul 2021)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter who wrong they are, I saw a bit of the second half, did Italy have a goal.


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

Apparently yes


----------



## Chippyjoe (12 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> and here they come, the slagger off'ers, who know nowt, profess to knowing nowt yesterday, knew nowt about it for 70 odd years but now having seen one game in their life they know all about it, OK see you again in 40 years.
> Few names on the list are no surprise, bloody know it alls, as always, things don't change.
> Maybe they would enjoy it more if there was a split screen shot of the himalayan mountains or wilderbeast roaming the Serengetti reserve.............
> 
> This particular type of person and they come from all walks of life seem determined to try and spoil it for others, it's a beautiful game, win or lose but why do the sticky beaks seem determined to poke their noses in, giving an opinion on something they profess to have zero knowledge on, it's just beyond me




Well said Bob.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> They've done it in Yorkshire as well -Tour de France first stage in Yorkshire (2014) then on the back of that the Tour de Yorkshire (2015 onwards). A friend of mine who used to live in Cragg Vale said there were so many people outside his house in 2014 that he couldn't get out of his front door for several hours. He watched the "procession" going past by removing an upstairs sash and hanging out. He said it took the pelleton only a minute or two to pass... Frankly, I'd rather be on the mountain watching the GP riders go past (IoM TT), but I can understand why others would think that was fairly bonkers, especially on a wet day (and I've had a few of those on the Island, only made better by a post race visit to the the Dog's Home)


Best watched on the telly! Even better now with better filming, drones etc completely changed it.


----------



## John Brown (12 Jul 2021)

I'm sure they're all very talented, but at the risk of criticized by the good doctor, I found it tedious. As opposed to the other sporting event yesterday, where the Italian lost, which I found gripping. I think football is broken. Need bigger goal mouths, or goalies with shoelaces tied together. Anything that prevents all those drawn results. Goal scoring currently doesn't have the necessary resolution to determine the better team. Penalty shootouts are a lottery.
IMO.


----------



## Spectric (12 Jul 2021)

Apparently Italy did not win a game of football, they won a game of just try and kick it past the goalperson, makes all the previous running around pointless. They should just keep going until there is a winner, even if they are so knackered they are crawling around and not be bounded by a time period.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2021)

I think they should stick to penalty kicks - they could do away with the game altogether.


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)




----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I think they should stick to penalty kicks - they could do away with the game altogether.


Dunno it'd be like watching darts on the telly. Or 10 pin bowling with just one live pin!.
Save a lot of messing about though.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Apparently Italy did not win a game of football, they won a game of just try and kick it past the goalperson, makes all the previous running around pointless. They should just keep going until there is a winner, even if they are so knackered they are crawling around and not be bounded by a time period.


And that Italian goalie had an easy time. It was good of the England team to let him off so lightly. Noblesse oblige in action.


----------



## Adam W. (12 Jul 2021)

I tried to watch it, but only lasted 5 mins before I got really bored. But from what I did see it seemed that Italy were hogging the ball and then ended up taking it home with them.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm sure they're all very talented, but at the risk of criticized by the good doctor, I found it tedious. As opposed to the other sporting event yesterday, where the Italian lost, which I found gripping. I think football is broken. Need bigger goal mouths, or goalies with shoelaces tied together. Anything that prevents all those drawn results. Goal scoring currently doesn't have the necessary resolution to determine the better team. Penalty shootouts are a lottery.
> IMO.



Multiball ......................  

The beautiful game, I loved it, thought it was a great Euro's. Penalties are just part of the game. Stick to your tennis, stop watching and sticking your nose in to a sport you don't like. 
Trouble is people watch a final who have no interest, I wish people wouldn't as you spoil it for us.
I can't understand in tennis why they don't just hit it back looks pisss easy.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm sure they're all very talented, but at the risk of criticized by the good doctor, I found it tedious. As opposed to the other sporting event yesterday, where the Italian lost, which I found gripping. I think football is broken. Need bigger goal mouths, or goalies with shoelaces tied together. Anything that prevents all those drawn results. Goal scoring currently doesn't have the necessary resolution to determine the better team. Penalty shootouts are a lottery.
> IMO.


Or no goalie? It's difficult enough getting one in at all, even without a bouncy giant with huge hands getting in the way.


----------



## John Brown (12 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Multiball ......................
> 
> The beautiful game, I loved it, thought it was a great Euro's. Penalties are just part of the game. Stick to your tennis, stop watching and sticking your nose in to a sport you don't like.
> Trouble is people watch a final who have no interest, I wish people wouldn't as you spoil it for us.
> I can't understand in tennis why they don't just hit it back looks pisss easy.


Thanks for the advice. I will continue to ignore football for the rest of my life. If I've spoilt it for you, by simply having an opinion, then I apologize.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Multiball ......................
> 
> The beautiful game ...


You do know "The beautiful game" was first used for cricket, don't you?


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You do know "The beautiful game" was first used for cricket, don't you?


And you get a nice cup of tea, cucumber sandwiches and you don't have to felt tip a George Cross on your bald head!


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

John Brown said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will continue to ignore football for the rest of my life. If I've spoilt it for you, by simply having an opinion, then I apologize.



Thank you, don't do it again.  
Trouble is next time we are in a final, you will feel obliged to watch it, in case we win so you can share in the glory, but if we lose you'll be on repeat mode.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You do know "The beautiful game" was first used for cricket, don't you?



No I didn't, does that mean you can only have one beautiful item?


----------



## John Brown (12 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> No I didn't, does that mean you can only have one beautiful item?


The definite article.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

The clever dick


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Trouble is next time we are in a final, you will feel obliged to watch it, in case we win so you can share in the glory, but if we lose you'll be on repeat mode.


The problem is that based on past experience he will quite possibly be dead before that happens. So will you. When asked if I had ever seen England in an international final I had to respond, "Yes, I watched the 1966 World Cup final on TV". I was the only one in our team - but then there are only 20-odd of us and the next oldest guy is mid 50s. So a once in a lifetime chance?


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

but 


JobandKnock said:


> The problem is that based on past experience he will quite possibly be dead before that happens. So will you. When asked if I had ever seen England in an international final I had to respond, "Yes, I watched the 1966 World Cup final on TV". I was the only one in our team - but then there are only 20-odd of us and the next oldest guy is mid 50s. So a once in a lifetime chance?



maybe, but every tournament is great even if england get knocked out.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

roll on 13th August.


----------



## Blackswanwood (12 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> The problem is that based on past experience he will quite possibly be dead before that happens. So will you. When asked if I had ever seen England in an international final I had to respond, "Yes, I watched the 1966 World Cup final on TV". I was the only one in our team - but then there are only 20-odd of us and the next oldest guy is mid 50s. So a once in a lifetime chance?



There is a chance every two years. 

I really don't get why some feel the need to be so negative and moan on about something so many people enjoy. It's also as if some revel in seeing hopes dashed.

I'm gutted we didn't win last night but I'm very grateful for the entertainment the tournament has provided and for the way the England team have performed and behaved throughout. If they build on this there's every chance of an equally strong performance at the World Cup.

As for the Tour de France - it's not something that I follow but I hope those who do and those who take part enjoy it.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> There is a chance every two years.
> 
> I really don't get why some feel the need to be so negative and moan on about something so many people enjoy. It's also as if some revel in seeing hopes dashed.
> 
> ...



Quite right, I get the same feeling about a few. Can't understand why a few watched it after slagging football off.


----------



## scooby (12 Jul 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> There is a chance every two years.
> 
> I really don't get why some feel the need to be so negative and moan on about something so many people enjoy. It's also as if some revel in seeing hopes dashed.
> 
> ...



Well said


----------



## Craywater (12 Jul 2021)

Jester129 said:


> England will lose tonight, simply because Italy are better at cheating, they've been doing it for a lot longer!
> On saying that, EVERY football team cheats.


Italians did not resort to flashing green laser in goalies eyes. - who did?


----------



## John Brown (12 Jul 2021)

I'm not slagging anything off. Just saying that I found it tedious. A lot of my friends are lifelong fans of the game. We wouldn't fall out over it, any more than if I said I didn't I care for cucumber.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

What's wrong with Cucumber?



Craywater said:


> Italians did not resort to flashing green laser in goalies eyes. - who did?



A dikhead individual, bit like the dikhead individual who wrecked the tour, all sports have em.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

I am curious as to what made it tedious for you. I found it edge of the seat watching. Total disappointment at the end, but it's only football so today is just a normal day, now look forward to the premier league starting.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (12 Jul 2021)

Perhaps I can provide a little help for those who are still struggling with the concept of football...


----------



## stuartpaul (12 Jul 2021)

I generally enjoyed the whole tournament although not a football watcher overall.

My biggest issue is with the mouth breathing, knuckle dragging ‘fans’ who feel that it’s acceptable to post racist abuse (in fact any abuse) at those who failed to score their penalties. Very sad.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (12 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> That’s a load of bolox


Are you referring to the BBC, ESPN, the IOC, the football result, or just life in general? It's best to be specific.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (12 Jul 2021)




----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> View attachment 113899


An obnoxious racist comment.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

well now my mind is boggled ..........................


----------



## Trainee neophyte (12 Jul 2021)

At what point does race come into it? I'm not living in the febrile, Guardian - outraged environment of the UK, so I haven't been bombarded with whatever nonsense you have today, but "race"? Are you feeling OK?


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> At what point does race come into it? I'm not living in the febrile, Guardian - outraged environment of the UK, so I haven't been bombarded with whatever nonsense you have today, but "race"? Are you feeling OK?


You are out of touch with the real world. 
Apparently the racist abuse is kicking in again following that missed penalty by Bukayo Saka, age19.
He was fouled earlier by Chiellini who should have been sent off, which won't attract much attention as he is white.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> You are out of touch with the real world.


You just called me racist. Thats a pretty serious accusation. You might want to explain how and why I am racist, so I can improve my behaviour. Otherwise I will ignore you because you are obviously just too tightly wrapped. Currently I am baffled, so I look forward to your full explanation of how being lightly joshed for shirt pulling is racist.


----------



## Blackswanwood (12 Jul 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> My biggest issue is with the mouth breathing, knuckle dragging ‘fans’ who feel that it’s acceptable to post racist abuse (in fact any abuse) at those who failed to score their penalties. Very sad.



I agree - they're not fans.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> You just called me racist. Thats a pretty serious accusation. You might want to explain how and why I am racist, so I can improve my behaviour. Otherwise I will ignore you because you are obviously just too tightly wrapped. Currently I am baffled, so I look forward to your full explanation of how being lightly joshed for shirt pulling is racist.


Are you really so out of touch? In case you really are; your "joke" is about a black man being caught thieving from a supermarket and similar jokes are now going around amongst the racist segment of the football community,


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

No, Jacob, it was about what happens when another checkout is opened (never been in a supermarket?). Nothing, repeat nothing, was said l, or as far as I can see implied, about shoplifting. So please just stop being so offended on behalf of others that you can't get a simple joke


----------



## Blackswanwood (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> You are out of touch with the real world.
> Apparently the racist abuse is kicking in again following that missed penalty by Bukayo Saka, age19.
> He was fouled earlier by Chiellini who should have been sent off, which won't attract much attention as he is white.


I can only assume that you didn't watch the match as you claimed in an earlier post or are a bit out of touch with the concept of memes.

The meme you have objected to is the foul taking placed photoshopped onto a supermarket background. There are loads of them floating around with different backgrounds and captions none of which have anything to do with race. 

If you watched football you'd be aware that a shirt pull is a yellow not red card offence. Saka to his credit didn't make a fuss.

The abuse of the three players who did not score in the penalty shoot out is abhorrent but unconnected to the meme @Trainee neophyte has posted and in my opinion you owe him an apology.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

OK I didn't see the "second checkout" heading but nevertheless that is not how that it would be read at first glance and posting it is just so out of touch against the febrile racism surrounding the whole issue, which is on the rise again.


----------



## selectortone (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob, you've obviously never been in Aldi when they open up another checkout!


----------



## Distinterior (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK I didn't see the "second checkout" heading but nevertheless that is not how that it would be read at first glance and posting it is just so out of touch against the febrile racism surrounding the whole issue, which is on the rise again.



Is that your idea of an apology...?


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> Jacob, you've obviously never been in Aldi when they open up another checkout!


OK got it!


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK I didn't see the "second checkout" heading but nevertheless that is not how that it would be read at first glance...


All that shows me that you are seemingly pre-disposed to see what you regard as racism.

You ought to see how my missys behaves when another checkout aisle opens - it's embarrasing


----------



## selectortone (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK got it!


It's probably not manly oop narth where you come from, but down here in the softy south we would apologise profusely for mistakenly calling someone a racist.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> It's probably not manly oop narth where you come from, but down here in the softy south we would apologise profusely for mistakenly calling someone a racist.


OK perhaps not racist but easily misread and pretty insensitive in the context of football racism which is now having a new lease of life.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> All that shows me that you are seemingly pre-disposed to see what you regard as racism.
> 
> You ought to see how my missys behaves when another checkout aisle opens - it's embarrasing


The players themselves are predisposed to seeing racism - hence "the taking of the knee' etc. It's a live and sensitive issue.


----------



## selectortone (12 Jul 2021)

Your innate Corbyn is showing. He could never manage a simple 'I'm sorry' either.


----------



## John Brown (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob, you should apologize to TN. iMO.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> Your innate Corbyn is showing. He could never manage a simple 'I'm sorry' either.


What was it he failed to apologise for?


----------



## scooby (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK perhaps not racist but easily misread and pretty insensitive in the context of football racism which is now having a new lease of life.


It really isn't easy to misread. Look at the picture and then read the massive words in white (am I allowed to say to white or will you accuse me of being a Neo nazi?)
Then make a forum post


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

[


scooby said:


> It really isn't easy to misread. Look at the picture and then read the massive words in white (am I allowed to say to white or will you accuse me of being a Neo nazi?)￼
> Then make a forum post￼


It is easy to misread. I misread it.



John Brown said:


> Jacob, you should apologize to TN. iMO.


OK apologies but with qualifications - jokes easily interpretable as racist are best avoided. There are too many of them going around which ARE racist, particularly now following the penalties.


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> ...hence "the taking of the knee' etc. It's a live and sensitive issue.


Yes, well, there's another bit if pollitical correctness going on there. Why is it OK to "take the knee" but not OK to wear a poppy on Remembrance Day if you are a player _because the poppy is a *political* symbol (?)_.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Yes, well, there's another bit if pollitical correctness going on there. Why is it OK to "take the knee" but not OK to wear a poppy on Remembrance Day if you are a player _because the poppy is a *political* symbol (?)_.


No idea. You'd have to ask them - which I guess is the whole point. One obvious answer of course is that black players get high levels of abuse and this is one way of fighting back. Nothing political about that.
Political/humanitarian, depends on the intention of the person doing it, or the interpretation of the viewer?
Is the poppy a political symbol? It wasn't supposed to be, it has changed somehow.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> What was it he failed to apologise for?


Everything he ever did.


----------



## RobinBHM (12 Jul 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Are you referring to the BBC, ESPN, the IOC, the football result, or just life in general? It's best to be specific.


None of the above, just simply your post made a few mentions of testicles……


----------



## D_W (12 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> There is something fundamentally wrong with that statement, a woman cannot have testicles just like a man cannot have a pair of mamary glands, Ok I accept that some men shaped like space hoppers may have a pair of fat sacks that may bare some resemblance to boobs but they are just fat. People need to get things back into normal reality and learn the birds & bee's and realise that there are male, female and the right angle brigade who are bad workers because they abuse their tools, everything else has some form of autism, just a miswiring of the brain that causes confusion and stewed hormones.



this has been split into a pretty simple two-part thing in the US:
* sex is the term used for your physical characteristics at birth. Even those are sometimes ambiguous, but most of us don't have such an issue - our sex is defined and unchanging
* gender is what you feel like on a given day (for some) or what you choose in a longer term (by something more permanent). 

The latter is territory for debate, so there can certainly be women by gender with male parts. 

It's certainly true that the first bullet point is relatively easy to determine for some, but for others. Clear cases of ambiguity are around 1 in 1000 to 1 in 1500, which means if you live in an area with any significant population, that won't be that difficult to run into. 

that leads to another thought - one would think that this actual biological issue has come up in the olympics or eligibility, etc. there was an article about a female sprinter several years ago that rather than being discussed due to the second bullet point, was discussed because the first wasn't clear. After competition, she was disqualified...

...edit, I thought this was worth looking up:








These Women Athletes Were Barred From Competing Because They Weren’t “Female” Enough


Experts question the “gender tests” — examining genitals, chromosomes, and testosterone levels — required of some of the world's best female athletes.




www.buzzfeednews.com





It turns out there are tons of articles, and not of the same person, meaning this is not uncommon. What's troubling from this article is that even in 2016, it appears the practice of examining (visually) has gone by the wayside and *women who are anatomically appearing to be women but with naturally high testosterone levels are disqualified from competing as women*. The article suggests that in the interest of fairness without embarrassing anyone, a cheek swab is used. 

there ought to be profuse apologies for this at this point. Can you imagine being a husband of one of these athletes, otherwise "enjoying yourself" so to speak, and then being told that your athletic wife (who looks like a woman to you clothed or not) isn't a woman? Come on. 

Maybe we should just tell swimmers with long arms that they'll be disqualified unless they swim with their fingers spread apart because it's "unfair". 


All that said - important to ask whether discussing sex or gender before arguments become pointless.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (12 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK apologies but with qualifications


It would appear that a leopard _can_ change its spots (with qualifications), and I salute you. A year ago that apology would never have been forthcoming. 

Accepted, without condition.


----------



## Daniel2 (12 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Multiball ......................
> 
> The beautiful game, I loved it, thought it was a great Euro's. Penalties are just part of the game. Stick to your tennis, stop watching and sticking your nose in to a sport you don't like.
> Trouble is people watch a final who have no interest, I wish people wouldn't as you spoil it for us.
> I can't understand in tennis why they don't just hit it back looks pisss easy.



I didn't have you down as one to spout sour grapes, @doctor Bob


----------



## Garden Shed Projects (12 Jul 2021)

I trust the guy that was slagging cucumbers off will also do the decent thing?


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I didn't have you down as one to spout sour grapes, @doctor Bob


Nor did I but I guess, frustration, disappointment and people talking a bit of tosh (see some posts to see some didn't really watch it, may have caught 5 mins) has driven me to it.
I'll offer an apology to all I have had a nibble at, just a very frustrating evening.


----------



## Daniel2 (12 Jul 2021)

What a terrible bunch of snowflakes.

Edit; apart from doctor bob.


----------



## Adam W. (12 Jul 2021)

After seeing what some England fans did to the Danish supporters, me and the girls decided to support Italy. I would imagine that after seeing that most of Europe felt the same.

Shame on England.


----------



## John Brown (12 Jul 2021)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> I trust the guy that was slagging cucumbers off will also do the decent thing?


I apologise unreservedly to cucumbers everywhere. Even though my disinterest was only hypothetical.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

John Brown said:


> I apologise unreservedly to cucumbers everywhere. Even though my disinterest was only hypothetical.



John thank you, very honest apology, however some courgettes are still upset as they believe your uncalled for comments were aimed at excessively watery vegetables and not just cucumbers.


----------



## Spectric (12 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> gender is what you feel like on a given day


I can understand gender being "shitte" or " over the moon" because these are feelings but if you are male then the only reason that you may feel like a woman or visa versa is due to mental health, something has gone wrong with the programing or some miswiring and we all know mental health has become such a huge problem, easy to understand with the current state of our world but society has to accept it has played a large part. One of natures objectives is conservation of the species which requires male and females to reproduce, without this fundamental concept the species would die out. This makes everything that falls outside of these parameters abnormal or defective as far as nature is concerned and basicaly nothing more than a chocolate tea pot or a plastic teabag.

If you put a VW badge on your lawnmower, it does not make it a VW or a car and it will remain a lawnmower, ths simple fact is what some people need to accept, you are what you are and not what you may wish to be.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> After seeing what some England fans did to the Danish supporters, me and the girls decided to support Italy. I would imagine that after seeing that most of Europe felt the same.
> 
> Shame on England.



Don't look up Italian ultra's then.


----------



## Adam W. (12 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> I can understand gender being "shitte" or " over the moon" because these are feelings but if you are male then the only reason that you may feel like a woman or visa versa is due to mental health, something has gone wrong with the programing or some miswiring and we all know mental health has become such a huge problem, easy to understand with the current state of our world but society has to accept it has played a large part. One of natures objectives is conservation of the species which requires male and females to reproduce, without this fundamental concept the species would die out. This makes everything that falls outside of these parameters abnormal or defective as far as nature is concerned and basicaly nothing more than a chocolate tea pot or a plastic teabag.
> 
> If you put a VW badge on your lawnmower, it does not make it a VW or a car and it will remain a lawnmower, ths simple fact is what some people need to accept, you are what you are and not what you may wish to be.


Oooh, err!


----------



## Daniel2 (12 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> I can understand gender being "shitte" or " over the moon" because these are feelings but if you are male then the only reason that you may feel like a woman or visa versa is due to mental health, something has gone wrong with the programing or some miswiring and we all know mental health has become such a huge problem, easy to understand with the current state of our world but society has to accept it has played a large part. One of natures objectives is conservation of the species which requires male and females to reproduce, without this fundamental concept the species would die out. This makes everything that falls outside of these parameters abnormal or defective as far as nature is concerned and basicaly nothing more than a chocolate tea pot or a plastic teabag.
> 
> If you put a VW badge on your lawnmower, it does not make it a VW or a car and it will remain a lawnmower, ths simple fact is what some people need to accept, you are what you are and not what you may wish to be.



We are progressing from that binary point of view, I hope.


----------



## Adam W. (12 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Don't look up Italian ultra's then.


I won't, thanks. But they didn't spit on 9 year old Danish kids, like Engerland supporters did.

Thoroughly abhorrent behaviour by supposed grown ups.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2021)

.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> We are progressing from that binary point of view, I hope.


Bit too scientific and logical for you?


----------



## D_W (12 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> .



phil has just clarified that he identifies as existing in one dimension today.


----------



## paulrbarnard (12 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> Jacob, you've obviously never been in Aldi when they open up another checkout!


It is definitely a race…


----------



## doctor Bob (12 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I won't, thanks. But they didn't spit on 9 year old Danish kids, like Engerland supporters did.
> 
> Thoroughly abhorrent behaviour by supposed grown ups.



Oh believe me I'm not supporting such behaviour.
If you want to believe it's purely an England issue that's up to you.


----------



## Flynnwood (12 Jul 2021)

Dave Allen:


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

Binary? WTF? How many genders are there, then?


----------



## Misterdog (12 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> Jacob, you've obviously never been in Aldi when they open up another checkout!



Indeed the 'race' is on.


Gotta love the English language.


----------



## Spectric (12 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Binary? WTF? How many genders are there, then?


Three, male, female and buggered.


----------



## Misterdog (12 Jul 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> We are progressing from that binary point of view, I hope.



Indeed Sam, Samatha, Sam Hashimi has spent over £150, 000 on gender reassignments, so the medical profession is in full support.

Even the fish in rivers are having gender mutations.









£30bn bill to purify water system after toxic impact of contraceptive pill


Drug firms oppose an EU call for controls on potent chemicals that have been blamed for the gender mutation of freshwater fish




www.theguardian.com





Follow the science.


----------



## JobandKnock (12 Jul 2021)

The science? Is this the same science which says it is a breach of someone's human rights to deny them the gender which they determine themselves to be? And so a convicted male (birth sex) prisoner who self identified as a woman managed to get a transfer to a woman's prison where "she" then raped several other inmates (HMP New Hall)

I'm beginning to consider self-identifying as a teapot, or possibly as a one-legged black Irish lesbian called "Rodney". Either choice makes as much sense as the other, TBH


----------



## Adam W. (13 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Oh believe me I'm not supporting such behaviour.
> If you want to believe it's purely an England issue that's up to you.


I never said that it's purely an England issue, but it is an England issue and has been for a very long time. It's about time England sorted it out and set an example of how to behave in a civilised manner.

It makes me ashamed to see such behaviour from my country.


----------



## Jacob (13 Jul 2021)

It's weird that it's become such focus for really bad tempered people. Even the game itself is bad tempered with grown men tripping each other up and trying to get away with it like little kids, arguing with the ref, sulking, and crying when they lose. Everybody looking stern and miserable. The English goalie was weird and seemed to be talking to himself all the time and looking irritable - was he on drugs?
In the background there were football riots in the streets and there will be a resurgence of football racism.
But a small number of people are making vast amounts of money from it.


----------



## Jacob (13 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> The science? Is this the same science which says it is a breach of someone's human rights to deny them the gender which they determine themselves to be? And so a convicted male (birth sex) prisoner who self identified as a woman managed to get a transfer to a woman's prison where "she" then raped several other inmates (HMP New Hall)
> 
> I'm beginning to consider self-identifying as a teapot, or possibly as a one-legged black Irish lesbian called "Rodney". Either choice makes as much sense as the other, TBH


If "science" then it's very confused and in its infancy, doesn't involve many people, so maybe not to worry too much about it Rodney!
Some of my best friends are teapots. If you can't beat them, join them!


----------



## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2021)

That surprises me little.


----------



## John Brown (13 Jul 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> The science? Is this the same science which says it is a breach of someone's human rights to deny them the gender which they determine themselves to be? And so a convicted male (birth sex) prisoner who self identified as a woman managed to get a transfer to a woman's prison where "she" then raped several other inmates (HMP New Hall)
> 
> I'm beginning to consider self-identifying as a teapot, or possibly as a one-legged black Irish lesbian called "Rodney". Either choice makes as much sense as the other, TBH


That's a shocking and depressing story.
I had to look it up, as I wasn't aware of it.
From what I read, the rapes were before the imprisonment, and "both sides" admit that mistakes were made. It's still horrific...
I believe the reality is that most "non-binary" people are probably sad and unhappy, and not predatory. And by far the majority of rapes are committed by people who were born male, and still identify as such. Good news for most people, but bad news for the tabloid press. And FA to do with football ( although they do kiss each other - what's that all about?).


----------



## Just4Fun (13 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Even the game itself is bad tempered with grown men tripping each other up and trying to get away with it like little kids


I think you could argue that it is the other way round, with little kids trying to get away with it like the grown men they see on TV. Whichever way round though, it is poor conduct.


----------



## Spectric (13 Jul 2021)

What about that numpty the other day that had decided he was going to be a non binary Korean, he was as english as you and me so WTF does he have between the ears apart from enough air pressure to keep his ears apart. I suppose at least he did realise he was not a digital being and analogue like everyone else. 

Is the female pill having a major impact, it all ends up as urine going down the pan and into the oceans and then back into the water supply, not to mention the effects on fish and other river life. This is also the case for all the other pills being consumed, happy pills and all sorts.









£30bn bill to purify water system after toxic impact of contraceptive pill


Drug firms oppose an EU call for controls on potent chemicals that have been blamed for the gender mutation of freshwater fish




www.theguardian.com













What Are the Environmental Impacts of Hormonal Birth Control?


Have you ever stopped for gas and watched a giant ten-wheel fuel tanker rumble up to refill the gas station’s tanks? These trucks are enormous, forty feet long, and each carries enough gasoline to fill a small backyard swimming pool. The powerful hormones in abortifacient methods of birth...




www.hli.org





So are we actualy having an impact on evolution.


----------



## Cabinetman (13 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> What about that numpty the other day that had decided he was going to be a non binary Korean, he was as english as you and me so WTF does he have between the ears apart from enough air pressure to keep his ears apart. I suppose at least he did realise he was not a digital being and analogue like everyone else.
> 
> Is the female pill having a major impact, it all ends up as urine going down the pan and into the oceans and then back into the water supply, not to mention the effects on fish and other river life. This is also the case for all the other pills being consumed, happy pills and all sorts.
> 
> ...


 Yes and the other effect is that human male sperm count has dropped 43% since the pill was brought in, that will definitely have an effect on human evolution! If it carries on it could be a mass extinction event.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I never said that it's purely an England issue, but it is an England issue and has been for a very long time. It's about time England sorted it out and set an example of how to behave in a civilised manner.



I agree, how would you do it?


----------



## raffo (13 Jul 2021)

Sex determination is not a simple X Y chromosome, presto you're male or female. There's quite a bit of variability in there, and how it affects your mind in your development and results in your gender identification is something that is being studied and probably not well understood, but the fact that people feel different than what their physical appearance shows is a fact. People that are not straight do not behave in that way just to confuse _you_ or anger _you_, they exist and all the denial and simplification you want to believe is not going to make their existence disappear.

This video may be informative, . Or if you want to go deeper, take a look at Sex Determination: Why So Many Ways of Doing It?

Rafael


----------



## AlanY (13 Jul 2021)

raffo said:


> Sex determination is not a simple X Y chromosome, presto you're male or female. There's quite a bit of variability in there, and how it affects your mind in your development and results in your gender identification is something that is being studied and probably not well understood, but the fact that people feel different than what their physical appearance shows is a fact. People that are not straight do not behave in that way just to confuse _you_ or anger _you_, they exist and all the denial and simplification you want to believe is not going to make their existence disappear.
> 
> This video may be informative, . Or if you want to go deeper, take a look at Sex Determination: Why So Many Ways of Doing It?
> 
> Rafael




So out of the 67 million people who populate the UK, how many are affected by this gender identification/misidentification stuff? If it is not a significant proportion, why is there all the fuss? Who cares if a person of one gender wishes to live as a person of another gender? I don't. They can fill their socks/stockings with it and good luck to them. My only concern is that a tiny minority have a disproportionately high lobby prescence in our political halls and the needs of that minority begin to take priority over the needs of the majority.


----------



## Adam W. (13 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I agree, how would you do it?


What I would suggest is illegal.

What do you reckon the solution is seeings you're a football fan ?


----------



## Jacob (13 Jul 2021)

AlanY said:


> So out of the 67 million people who populate the UK, how many are affected by this gender identification/misidentification stuff? If it is not a significant proportion, why is there all the fuss? Who cares if a person of one gender wishes to live as a person of another gender? I don't. They can fill their socks/stockings with it and good luck to them. My only concern is that a tiny minority have a disproportionately high lobby prescence in our political halls and the needs of that minority begin to take priority over the needs of the majority.


It's something the right are obsessed with and continually accuse the left of being "woke" etc and prioritising tiny minorities.
It isn't true but they will keep banging on forever!
There are changing attitudes though - easy to forget that homosexuality was illegal before 1967 but that has all changed. Change is usually little and late but conflicts/misunderstandings/mistakes are bound to crop up in the process and the "non woke' will get over excited all over again, every time something is flagged up in the sensationalist press.


----------



## raffo (13 Jul 2021)

AlanY said:


> So out of the 67 million people who populate the UK, how many are affected by this gender identification/misidentification stuff? If it is not a significant proportion, why is there all the fuss? Who cares if a person of one gender wishes to live as a person of another gender? I don't. They can fill their socks/stockings with it and good luck to them. My only concern is that a tiny minority have a disproportionately high lobby prescence in our political halls and the needs of that minority begin to take priority over the needs of the majority.



Again, it's not simple answer. How about this, a survey in 2017 found men (82%) and women (80%) identifying as exclusively heterosexual in the UK (Demographics of sexual orientation - Wikipedia). Something to think about.


----------



## JobandKnock (13 Jul 2021)

That's all very well and good, but how many of them identified as teapot?


----------



## Jacob (13 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> What I would suggest is illegal.
> 
> What do you reckon the solution is seeings you're a football fan ?


Give him a chance he won't have got all his face paint off yet!


----------



## scooby (13 Jul 2021)

Its good to see a thread that has gone off topic (but has made interesting reading) and remained civilised. You all deserve a pat on the back


----------



## AlanY (13 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's something the right are obsessed with and continually accuse the left of being "woke" etc and prioritising tiny minorities.
> It isn't true but they will keep banging on forever!
> There are changing attitudes though - easy to forget that homosexuality was illegal before 1967 but that has all changed. Change is usually little and late but conflicts/misunderstandings/mistakes are bound to crop up in the process and the "non woke' will get over excited all over again, every time something is flagged up in the sensationalist press.



But, you see, I am not obsessed with it. I am so disinterested in the lives of these people that I would be happy if they just shut up and got on with whatever they want to be - without, I hasten to add, interference or inequalities either way. But I draw the line at children of primary school age being taught such things as there being 100 genders, about homsexuality, anal sex and gender dysphoria. These are in our childrens schools now and they are there because of the lobbying from powerful groups that support such movements as the LGBTG (or whatever the acronym is there may also be a + in there somewhere). They represent a minority of the population, yet have the political push to get that rubbish onto the curriculum. 

Anyhow, that is my tuppence worth and I did not enjoy giving it.


----------



## Jacob (13 Jul 2021)

AlanY said:


> ....I draw the line at children of primary school age being taught such things as there being 100 genders, about homsexuality, anal sex and gender dysphoria. ...


I would too. It's just not true though. Made up by the Sun etc.
I'm just guessing here but I wouldn't be surprised if attitudes to same sex marriage/families were talked about more freely, as it has become normalised and almost uncontroversial.


----------



## AlanY (13 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's just not true though. Made up by the Sun etc.


Whatever you say, Jacob.


----------



## Jacob (13 Jul 2021)

AlanY said:


> Whatever you say, Jacob.


If you want to believe these things what can anybody say?


----------



## doctor Bob (13 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> What I would suggest is illegal.
> 
> What do you reckon the solution is seeings you're a football fan ?



More policing of matches, less alcohol, education. To be honest I suspect the main cause of antisocial behaviour is alcohol, how do you stop people drinking to much when it seems to be in our culture. Just watch A&E after dark or one of those programs and you can see what alcohol does.
I'd just add I'm teetotal and have been for well over 20 years, I don't peach temperance but wish people would drink socially. I have first hand knowledge of the damage alcohol can do, for the majority it's not an issue however drinking for some is like rocket fuel.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Give him a chance he won't have got all his face paint off yet!


the firework up my bottom is still smouldering as well.


----------



## Spectric (13 Jul 2021)

AlanY said:


> But I draw the line at children of primary school age being taught such things as there being 100 genders, about homsexuality, anal sex and gender dysphoria.


That is a sure sign of just how messed up society has become, next they will be saying that pigs really can fly. Once the abnormal becomes widely accepted then it sets a new normal, it is a downhill road and the right solution is to provide mental health assistance to help them rather than just saying oh well if you want to be a teapot then that is fine because you are just adding fuel to the fire. Eventually you will get people who want to be a car and end up flattened because no one took them to one side and explained that you cannot be a car. Look what has happened since the closure of so many mental care hospitals where they decided that it would be better for them to mix in normal society with little support, our kids can no longer have the freedom that we once had because of the risk.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 Jul 2021)

left wing, right wing stories, woke and anti woke stories, all fuelled by the media.
Most people are decent, non racist, live and let live, types of people.
Even on this forum one or two will go to amazing lenghts to change the direction and innocence of a thread, all to provoke reaction and fuel the agenda they want to promote, it's a simple tool used very effectively by political people.


----------



## Ozi (13 Jul 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I have no interest in the football myself, I think it brings out a strange partisan tribalism based on just randomly liking a team because you just decided to when you were 7 or because your grandad likes them. Or a sort of nationalism of the worst kind.
> I do realise that a great percentage of the country really love it though, so let them have it on for 2 weeks.
> I do like the Olympics . I realise I am the odd one out but when I watch sport I don't care who wins before the event starts, I just like to see what happens and people doing amazing things.


Ollie - I suspect you are a gentleman of the first order ie I agree with you


----------



## mikej460 (13 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> That is a sure sign of just how messed up society has become, next they will be saying that pigs really can fly. Once the abnormal becomes widely accepted then it sets a new normal, it is a downhill road and the right solution is to provide mental health assistance to help them rather than just saying oh well if you want to be a teapot then that is fine because you are just adding fuel to the fire. Eventually you will get people who want to be a car and end up flattened because no one took them to one side and explained that you cannot be a car. Look what has happened since the closure of so many mental care hospitals where they decided that it would be better for them to mix in normal society with little support, our kids can no longer have the freedom that we once had because of the risk.


Yes there needs to be a new normal. The 'normal' is simply what we have had drummed into us. All through millennia people have been persecuted for being outside of what cultures have established as acceptable, mostly derived from religious diktat. I grew up in the 60s/70s in a society that was explicitly racist and homophobic, where non-white people and homosexuals were mocked at best and treated as potential criminals or child molesters at worst. Over the years I've managed to re-adjust my moral compass to accept that we are all equal; that is what today's society is striving for and ever so slowly achieving. I am however increasingly frustrated with non-white comedians who work the race issue just to get a laugh as it just perpetuates racism. This week's shameful behaviour underlines how much there is left to do, but the subsequent backlash demonstrates just how far we have already come. 

I would caution against the worry that primary school kids are being taught such outlandish extremes as gender dysphoria, anal sex etc. as we get that from gutter press who want to sell papers or attract online readers to their advertisers, and from other sensationalist media. The acceptance of such nonsense is borne out of the way we have been brought up, but the truth is that these differences present no real threat to others who don't share their sexuality or skin colour.

In short, people behave the way they do as a result of learning from a combination of parents, schools, the media and religious groups, hence the need to educate children that we are all different but that that is ok. Thank goodness, as Dr Bob says, most people are decent, non racist, live and let live, types of people.


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## JobandKnock (14 Jul 2021)

"A new normal" - is that newspeak?


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## Fergie 307 (14 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I agree, how would you do it?


I think there are a number of things clubs could do. Impose meaningful fines or suspension for players who abuse officials on the pitch, or for poor behaviour off it. As it is they take kids who may have a great talent as footballers, but in some cases have few other life skills, pay them £100k a week and then take no responsibility for the resulting carnage. This is damaging to the reputation of the game, and ultimately to the players themselves. Hopefully if you could encourage better behaviour from the players this will also influence the fans, eventually. Sadly there will always be those who throw vile abuse at the player who they feel has let them down, and this often has racism thrown in when the player is black. It would be lovely if there was a star ship enterprise type transporter system whereby you could pluck these trolls off their sofa on to the penalty spot, we could then have a good laugh at their efforts. I mean look at Rashford, the guy missed a penalty for goodness sake. OK he shouldn't have, he has been the first to acknowledge that, but he's not a machine. Nobody died, get over it. Great to see how his local community has rallied round him.


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2021)

Good to hear that the team are fighting racism and giving Johnson the two fingers! Breaking: England team’s Downing St reception was ‘cancelled’ because players refused to meet Johnson
Let's hope they can keep up the BLM pressure and change attitudes. Every little helps!


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## Doug71 (14 Jul 2021)

My 9yr old plays football in the local kids team, he is not a big fan of football, we never watch it on TV, he just enjoys a kick around and a bit of fun with his mates 

Some of the other kids (and parents) are massive football fans, watch it all the time, kids always have the latest team strip, it's all they talk about.

It's really funny watching them play because even at the age of 9 the ones who are really keen on the game and watch it on TV spend half the time rolling around on the floor holding their leg if they get tackled but the boys like my son who don't watch football on TV hardly ever go down and if they do they are straight back up again getting stuck in.


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## doctor Bob (14 Jul 2021)

I hope this thread doesn't become politicalised by some (one) other wise it needs to be moved to the nutters hidden forum, seems like some just can't help themselves.

For me racism isn't a left or right wing issue, you get tw-ts in all walks of life and all parties and forums 
Anyone who thinks its one side only or trying to say it's a one sided issue is sticking their head in the sand and ignoring the many wrong doings and past mistakes of their favoured party or leader and members. It requires education of the masses.

I suspect it may be easier to bash my bonce against a brick wall, as I doubt it will be taken on board.

P.S. it's also seems like some want to tar all football supporter with the same brush. Most go to matches to enjoy the football, the banter and the excitement, not to smash the place up, fight and end up in hospital. I haven't stuck a firework (sparkler) between my buttocks, for nigh on 30 years, and that was at a rugby club   .
Do all Tdf fans who go want to knock the riders off and cause a great big pile up .............. no, same principle, a few spoil it for the majority.


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I hope this thread doesn't become politicalised by some (one) other wise it needs to be moved to the nutters hidden forum, seems like some just can't help themselves.
> 
> For me racism isn't a left or right wing issue, you get tw-ts in all walks of life and all parties and forums
> Anyone who thinks its one side only or trying to say it's a one sided issue is sticking their head in the sand and ignoring the many wrong doings and past mistakes of their favoured party or leader and members. It requires education of the masses.
> ...


It's these chaps making it "political". THEY are trying to tell YOU something. Nothing to do with me!
Are they all nutters and tw*ts?


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## doctor Bob (14 Jul 2021)

Oh do shut up Jacob, every thread you join you F--- up for every body, with your lefty / socialist politics, the hidden forum was created specifically for you, and others joined I assume, but you refuse to keep it behind closed doors.
I have zero objections about discussing racism, but you are soley about government bashing and promoting socialism.
I hate to see what carp is in that hidden section.

For the record, I have no objections to taking the knee, I promoted and worked as the anti racist delegate at our local kids club, I have "people of colour" in my family, many asian and Black friends so please don't try and twist/hint things, it's rather below you. Those "chaps" don't need to tell me anything. I'm aware and active against it. I just don't get a kick out of telling people what I do, or how I try and help, unlike some who can't seem to stop telling people how "aware" they are. Yet you never mentioned the England football team and the kick it out campaign, in the last 10 years. A lot of us have been doing our bit for a lot longer than a week before it became trendy. I wonder if you have the facebook stuff up, that seems very popular and on trend, I wonder if this will give you the impulse to go and see how you can help at the local club?

You are a proper bad smell. I thought the hidden forum would blow the smell away but I suspect you can't stir the pot sufficently behind closed doors.

Unfortunately, I know you will get a kick out of getting a response from me, so you will keep going like always. And so the thread will be locked.


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## Fergie 307 (14 Jul 2021)

Bravo. There are a few on here who are so convinced that they are invariably right that the fact that anyone disagrees with them is, in and of itself, evidence that the person concerned is some kind of mental defective. Good for you for calling it out.


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## RobinBHM (14 Jul 2021)

I would say the backlash against BLM and taking the knee, is a phoney culture war which comes from the right of politics.

but the people who send nasty racist tweets to Rashford etc, aren’t doing so due to political ideology - they wouldn’t know what means, they are just unpleasant idiots that need a good smack


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## Fergie 307 (14 Jul 2021)

And taking the knee originated with Martin Luther King, so why it is being held to be evidence of all manner of sinister motivation is beyond me. But then the people who are booing are no doubt the same louts who don't respect other teams National anthems, and spit on rival supporters. Where they can be identified they should be banned from football for life.


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## doctor Bob (14 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> but the people who send nasty racist tweets to Rashford etc, aren’t doing so due to political ideology - they wouldn’t know what means, they are just unpleasant idiots that need a good smack



Exactly, so why some tar all supporters as racist is beyond me.


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## selectortone (14 Jul 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Where they can be identified they should be banned from football for life.


The social media companies know who they are. They should be compelled to reveal their identities. Let them have some of their own medicine and see how they like it.


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## Fergie 307 (14 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> The social media companies know who they are. They should be compelled to reveal their identities. Let them have some of their own medicine and see how they like it.


Absolutely, for all those trolls whether it be to do with football or anything else.


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's these chaps making it "political". THEY are trying to tell YOU something. Nothing to do with me!
> Are they all nutters and tw*ts?
> 
> 
> ...


When I wrote "THEY are trying to tell YOU something". I wasn't accusing poor old Bob, or all supporters, of being a racist I meant THEY are trying to tell EVERYBODY something. Doing it very well too IMHO!


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## doctor Bob (14 Jul 2021)

I have followed Norwich for many years. Really looking forward to this season, think we have a very good chance of finally getting a decent stay in top flight football.
First game Liverpool at Carrow road.
I'm not local anymore so I don't go as much as I should.


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## Glitch (14 Jul 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> And taking the knee originated with Martin Luther King, so why it is being held to be evidence of all manner of sinister motivation is beyond me. But then the people who are booing are no doubt the same louts who don't respect other teams National anthems, and spit on rival supporters. Where they can be identified they should be banned from football for life.



NFL player Colin Kaepernick started the current trend in 2016.
It caught on with a lot of other players. Some teams made different gestures like linking arms.

The big difference was they knelt during the pre-game national anthem. It was to highlight injustice and inequality. He claimed he knelt as a respectful gesture.

Trump whipped up the idea it was disrespectful to the national anthem.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2021)

Which it was obviously meant to be or they wouldn't have done it in the middle of the national anthem.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2021)

How taking the knee began | The Week UK


NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick popularised the gesture as a protest against police brutality and racism



www.theweek.co.uk


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## Glitch (15 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Which it was obviously meant to be or they wouldn't have done it in the middle of the national anthem.



Apparently not, according to him. Originally he just sat then started taking the knee, supposedly to show some respect to the anthem. 
I'm only repeating what he said, not defending him. But it's sometime good to hear both sides.

Kaepernick has done an awful lot for worthy causes and donated a lot of his considerable income. 
Seems like Rashford is using him as a role model and has also created a platform to successfully bring attention to some key issues. Good on him.

There are undoubtedly inequality issues here in the UK that need fixing but they are nothing like the issues experienced in the U.S. by African Americans.

Just to be clear, I am against taking the knee in the U.K. . They need to adopt a different gesture. 

Trying to imagine what would happen if they took the knee during God Save the Queen. 
That would be a statement.

Having been to the Germany game and the Final the behaviour of England fans is way worse than I've experienced in the past. Made worse by a home tournament. It's an English disease. Shameful and embarrassing.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2021)

Glitch said:


> ...
> 
> Just to be clear, I am against taking the knee in the U.K. . They need to adopt a different gesture.
> 
> ....


But it works. Look at the attention it gets. What do you think they should do instead?


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## Glitch (15 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> But it works. Look at the attention it gets. What do you think they should do instead?



So any attention is good attention then?
It appears to be causing even more division.

Crystal Palace player Wilfred Zaha stopped taking the knee because he sees it as a hollow gesture. He wants to see real action and some results. He’s right.

We need more of what Rashford has done with help from his fellow players. Donating and raising funds for worthy causes and lobbying the government to offer all kids the same opportunity of a good education. Stuff that resonants with the man in the street. Advertise their campaigns at grounds. Mention it as the teams stand together, arms linked in the centre circle. Ask for donations. Mentions the successes and invite applause.
Kick it Out needs a big kick up the backside.


Kick it Out needs a big kick up the backside.

Or you could just touch your knee on the ground for a second, let the public argue about it and hope the problems go away.


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## MikeJhn (15 Jul 2021)

It seems the gesture has lost its original meaning, I asked a chap in the local who was extolling taking the knee if he would take a knee with me for the six million jews murdered in the second world war, he looked astonished at the suggestion, thinking it was only for inequality/injustice against coloured people, IMO it has become a very hollow gesture.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2021)

Glitch said:


> So any attention is good attention then?
> .....


Well yes - that is the whole idea. Force the issues into the open.. etc.


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## Glitch (15 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Well yes - that is the whole idea. Force the issues into the open.. etc.


I thought BLM protests and subsequent rioting and statue toppling was doing a good job of that.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2021)

Glitch said:


> I thought BLM protests and subsequent rioting and statue toppling was doing a good job of that.


I agree. Taking the knee is just another contribution in another place.


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## Chippyjoe (15 Jul 2021)

Talk about a thread going "Off topic", jeez mods do something about a few on here turning it into another political rant and eventually getting locked.


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## Noel (15 Jul 2021)

Was just about to lock the thread as it happens. Personal insults, folk unable to avoid posts and threads that seem to get their blood pressure up, unable to discuss anything in a rational and civil manner.

So keep it friendly or else..............


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## Terry - Somerset (15 Jul 2021)

I abhor racism, but I do wonder whether taking the knee and BLM is becoming counter productive.

Firstly it draws attention to differences in colour. I see footballers, or cricketers, or doctors, or nurses, or lawyers etc - not African, West Indian, Asian etc.

Most people are not racists - a movement is being reinforced by the behaviour of an obnoxious few, not the majority. 

Now a bit of paranoia. By protesting in this way they seem by implication to include me in the unacceptable actions of a few. I resent this and (sadly) makes me less, not more, sympathetic to their cause. 

Far better that the perpetrators are very publically identified, charged and punished. Social media should take far more responsibility for that which they "publish" and activiely deny access to their products to those who offend.


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## Glitch (15 Jul 2021)

Chippyjoe said:


> Talk about a thread going "Off topic", jeez mods do something about a few on here turning it into another political rant and eventually getting locked.



I watched a few hours of TdF on ITV4 yesterday. Admittedly I fell asleep a couple of times.
Woke up and the commentators were running out of new things to say.

9%-12% gradient for miles on end. That's tough.
Steady pedalling until the final kilometre.
Spectacular scenery.
No one crashed.
The favourite won.
I’ll give it a miss today.


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## D_W (15 Jul 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> So what fatality rate would satisfy you?
> 
> Christians used to fight lions in the colosseum but I hope we have progressed beyond mindless bloodshed as a form of entertainment.



They didn't have the news to watch back then. That's where we, as society, get it now.


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## doctor Bob (15 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> Was just about to lock the thread as it happens. Personal insults, folk unable to avoid posts and threads that seem to get their blood pressure up, unable to discuss anything in a rational and civil manner.
> 
> So keep it friendly or else..............



Maybe your right, I'll avoid the t.... and hope he goes back to the hidden forum with politics.


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## Spectric (15 Jul 2021)

All these issues of type, make, origin and colour would not happen if the human race stopped its love of categorisation, this race issue is just a low level version of the cold war, on par with the "troubles" and another version of the middle east. If everyone decided to be just human then we could solve so many problems but you will unfortunately always get the ones who stick their head above the parapet and then complain they got shot.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> I agree. Taking the knee is just another contribution in another place.


Also TTK is non violent, non destructive, very brief, not offensive, legal, peaceful..etc. Surely should be welcomed - compared to other varieties of BLM protest?


Terry - Somerset said:


> ....
> Far better that the perpetrators are very publicly identified, charged and punished. Social media should take far more responsibility for that which they "publish" and activiely deny access to their products to those who offend.


It's not just about football match chants and social media abuse. Calling to account "the perpetrators" of civil rights abuses could extend through society, and to the government itself.


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## Noel (15 Jul 2021)

Glitch said:


> I watched a few hours of TdF on ITV4 yesterday. Admittedly I fell asleep a couple of times.
> Woke up and the commentators were running out of new things to say.
> 
> 9%-12% gradient for miles on end. That's tough.
> ...



I'm not sure you did watch it ... : )

Oh, and the Bahrain Victorious team hotel was raided after the stage. Some of the team members have/had rather iffy connections with the dark side in the past.


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## Adam W. (15 Jul 2021)

Really, I do the Dark Side. Maybe they want to borrow my froe.


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## Noel (15 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Really, I do the Dark Side. Maybe they want to borrow my froe.


 
Expect a 4 am knock on the door from WADA shortly.......


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## Spectric (15 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> could extend through society, and to the government itself.


The fact that needs to be accepted is that you cannot judge what has happened in the past, it is fixed at that point in time and cannot be changed, it happened. All this nonsense about statues of the so called perpetrators being vandalised is not going to alter history, people need to learn from history in order not to allow certain events to reoccur and not try and remove all the evidence so it can be brushed under the carpet.


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## Glitch (15 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> I'm not sure you did watch it ... : )
> 
> Oh, and the Bahrain Victorious team hotel was raided after the stage. Some of the team members have/had rather iffy connections with the dark side in the past.



I can assure you I did and I was totally exhausted by the experience. Like I’d pedalled up two mountains with them.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> The fact that needs to be accepted is that you cannot judge what has happened in the past,


Oh yes you can, and you should do. It is continually under review.


> it is fixed at that point in time and cannot be changed, it happened.


True, but the _interpretation_ of what happened, i.e. _the history_, can be a bit fluid, or even totally false. Also the fall out from history which we live with now, can be modified.


> All this nonsense about statues of the so called perpetrators being vandalised is not going to alter history, people need to learn from history


People probably learned more than they every knew from the history, when Colston's statue was dumped! It'd be good if they toppled Rhodes next!


> then in order not to allow certain events to reoccur and not try and remove all the evidence so it can be brushed under the carpet.


Statues aren't the evidence. Some of them are evidence of falsified history - a particular narrow or outdated point of view


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## Daniel2 (15 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Oh yes you can, and you should do. It is continually under review.True, but the _interpretation_ of what happened, i.e. _the history_, can be a bit fluid, or even totally false. Also the fall out from history which we live with now, can be modified.People probably learned more than they every knew from the history, when Colston's statue was dumped! It'd be good if they toppled Rhodes next!Statues aren't the evidence. Some of them are evidence of falsified history - a particular narrow or outdated point of view



Why do you continue arguing purely for the sake of arguing ?


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## JobandKnock (15 Jul 2021)

Jacob, just how do you view the people who daubed the word "racist" on Churchill's statue or those "right on people" who thought it was acceptable to try to set fire to the Union flags at the Senotaph?

Personally, I didn't know much about Colston, but what was clear to me from having visited Bristol a number of times over the years was that he was a great benefactor to the city. The problem was that his money came from the misery of slaves, but rather than toppling his statue I think I'd have opted for having addirional plaques on his statue(s) which spelled out in non-political terns just how he made his fortune. A bunch of (seemingly in the main) outsiders coming in and topplng his statue was one thing, but for a London artist to then turn up subsequently and erect a statue to a non-entity who is of little account in Bristol on the same site was downright insulting to Bristolians (the words of a friend who has a business in the city). You do not change history by pulling down statues (including that of Rhodes). Surely it is far better to explain what these people did thsn to attempt to expunge them in the way that Stalin did?

As to Churchill, my family comes from a mining background where even as late as the 1960s if you mentioned his name one of the older men might spit on the ground. Some people had long memories of Churchill's behavior in both Tonypandy and the General Strike. What I find risible about the people who attack his statue is that had Halifax, not Churchill, succeeded Chamberlain as PM some of that mob would more than likely be speaking German or more likely they would never have been born (iin view of the Nazi idiology which was all for cleansing the population of undesirable elements such as inferior racial groups, homosexuals, the weak and disabled, trades unionists, etc). Funny old thing, freedom of speech.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Why do you continue arguing purely for the sake of arguing ?


An ad hominem comment to ignore.
You could ask the same of everybody who keeps the thread rolling along.


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## Terry - Somerset (15 Jul 2021)

It is said that the victor writes the history books. In a sense the destruction of statues is a re-writing of history. Those who in their time were regarded as worthy of public acclaim are now dismissed or destroyed as an expression of evil.

We will learn nothing if we rewrite the past to match current perceptions. As what is regarded as publically and socially acceptable continues to evolve, we should assume that much that today we hold true may be regarded with contempt and disbelief in the future

So, hypothetically, how would people feel if in 50 or 100 years time, non-heterosexual activity were regarded as deviant, punishment deemed more effective than rehabilitation, genetic variance dealt with as an abnormality etc.

*George Santayana - those who cannot remember the past are destined to repeat it*


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## Noel (15 Jul 2021)

Noel said:


> Was just about to lock the thread as it happens. Personal insults, folk unable to avoid posts and threads that seem to get their blood pressure up, unable to discuss anything in a rational and civil manner.
> 
> So keep it friendly or else..............



140 over 90.


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