# Non-selling Ebay seller



## JohnPW (7 Feb 2015)

I've won a few a few Ebay auction bargains where the seller didn't want to sell. I've given them a neg feedback which they deserve (gets remove after 1 year anyway), but are there any other consequences?

Does Ebay do anything else to deter it? Eg, suspend their account, put their listings lower down search results etc?


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## marcros (7 Feb 2015)

Nope. That might encourage them to not pay so many fees.


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## AndyT (7 Feb 2015)

I think I've had the same thing where the very nice old book that I'd "won" for the opening bid had somehow been damaged by a sudden flood and could not be sold... I don't think there is anything you can do about it but shrug and move on.


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## graduate_owner (7 Feb 2015)

I bought some circular saw blades for the maiden bid of 99p which was ridiculously cheap but that was the price. The seller claimed he had sent them but they never arrived, and I suspect he just didn't want to sell them for the price. (I don't blame him but he should have put a higher starting price or a reserve). He claimed they were lost in transit. Anyhow he said he would refund my money, which he did, via Paypal, but not until I started a case against him. I didn't get a refund though because the day after I closed the case, Paypal emailed me to say the refund had failed due to insufficient funds in the seller's account. Having closed the case, ebay could do nothing, and I had no satisfaction from paypal either. It was only about a fiver including postage, but I was not pleased and I felt ripped off. Lucky it was only a fiver. Moral - don't look at your paypal account and expect it to be correct. If you have a payment, check it is still there in about 10 days time before you can be certain of it. And don't expect any help from paypal either.

K


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## rafezetter (7 Feb 2015)

graduate_owner":33ukgyey said:


> I bought some circular saw blades for the maiden bid of 99p which was ridiculously cheap but that was the price. The seller claimed he had sent them but they never arrived, and I suspect he just didn't want to sell them for the price. (I don't blame him but he should have put a higher starting price or a reserve). He claimed they were lost in transit. Anyhow he said he would refund my money, which he did, via Paypal, but not until I started a case against him. I didn't get a refund though because the day after I closed the case, Paypal emailed me to say the refund had failed due to insufficient funds in the seller's account. Having closed the case, ebay could do nothing, and I had no satisfaction from paypal either. It was only about a fiver including postage, but I was not pleased and I felt ripped off. Lucky it was only a fiver. Moral - don't look at your paypal account and expect it to be correct. If you have a payment, check it is still there in about 10 days time before you can be certain of it. And don't expect any help from paypal either.
> 
> K




I had something similar a few years back, but the value if the item wasn't that much higher than I paid - a scale model. I never got it, same sort of scenario - claimed he'd sent it etc etc.

Anyway a few weeks later I saw the same seller put the same item up using the SAME photo. I contacted him and said he'd committed online fraud (which he had) by falsely obtaining money for goods, I contacted these guys:

http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report_fraud

Got a case number and emailed it to the ebay seller. About 20 mins later I got a full refund.

If you get a case number even ebay and paypal will suddenly be helpful.

DON'T be put off by the small sums of money - you have no idea how many people may have been taken that way by that seller.

For Andy T's scenario, when they put the item up for auction, they effectively entered into a law bound contract, and if they refuse to send the item and cannot otherwise prove it was "damaged", then they are law bound to send it to you - if they do not, again it's online fraud.

Unless things have changed it used to be that a seller could withdraw an item up to 24 hours before auction ended without problems. If they left it to run until the end, the contract has been made "live" and they are contract bound to sell that item for that price, regardless of it's "true" value. It's called an "Auction" for a REASON.



JohnPW":33ukgyey said:


> I've won a few a few Ebay auction bargains where the seller didn't want to sell. I've given them a neg feedback which they deserve (gets remove after 1 year anyway), but are there any other consequences?
> 
> Does Ebay do anything else to deter it? Eg, suspend their account, put their listings lower down search results etc?



This is illegal. Final bid is final bid regardless - next time it happens follow my other post (now merged) for advice, and if they agree to send it tell them you expect it to be by recorded post and want to see the tracking numbers, otherwise you will involve the "fraud squad".


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## artie (7 Feb 2015)

My understanding is, if you buy an item and the seller charges you for delivery.

Then the item must be delivered to you or a full refund issued. 

No blaming Royal Mail, Hermes or Parcel to go.

Your contract was with the seller.


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## RogerP (8 Feb 2015)

It works both ways. I sell quite a bit on eBay and have had very few problems but I did have one item appear to get lost in the post and naturally the buyer complained. I refunded his money and then made a claim with Royal Mail. 

I happened to mentioned it to a friend who sells even more than me through eBay about it he said he'd just had a similar problem with RM. Low and behold It transpired it was the same buyer!

Wrote to the buyer politely enquiring if the item had turned up yet and also asked if my friend's item was still missing as if so we were jointly going to have strong words with RM. Perhaps they had a rogue postie stealing stuff (it's happened in the past).

He replied that by really strange coincidence the item had just arrived and he was just going to let me know when he received my mail.

Well I never, who'd have believed it, how odd. 

I may be cabbage looking but I'm not that green!

One for the banned list and a note to eBay.

On checking I see now he's "not an eBay member"


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## flh801978 (8 Feb 2015)

I have had 5 non performing sellers during december and january
all low final values or maiden bids
one seller was a college took my money and heard nothing had to involve ebay for a refund
one said he had posted promised a tracking number never arrived had to involve ebay then the item was relisted at 10x the price...never sold though
One came clean and said he had lost the item he refunded though
One said he couldnt sell but only after me having paid and arranged a lorry to collect
Another item never arrived he refunded after ebay involvement

So in those 2 months I've left 8 negatives ( one seller got 3 as 3 items)

Apparently ebay mark you down as a serial neg leaver
perhaps not if you have involved ebay in getting a refund

I would have thought that a phone call to ebay from Graduate Owner will resolve his problem as hed closed the case after he thought he had a refund in the offing..moral dont close untill you are absolutely sure the cash is yours

Ian


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## JohnPW (8 Feb 2015)

With auctions where I've paid by Paypal (either with my credit card processed by Paypal or from my Paypal account) and the seller is supposed to send by post, luckily I haven't any seller claim they have sent it but didn't arrive, although I've had items damaged by the courier (chucking it over garden gate) and items "not as described".

What I was talking about in my OP were collection only (or can collect) items and the sellers didn't reply to messages asking for their address, so it's obvious they didn't want to sell, and no money changed hands. I wasn't really bothered not getting the bargains although it would have been nice*, it's the waste of time and effort searching, watching, bidding, sending messages that's annoying. 

*99p vice (Record 52 size).
*99p wooden handscrew, wooden jack and trying planes.

On the other hand, one seller did the honorable thing and I got a complete Record 050c with box and instructions for £1.20!


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## rafezetter (9 Feb 2015)

JohnPW":2zs43ttz said:


> With auctions where I've paid by Paypal (either with my credit card processed by Paypal or from my Paypal account) and the seller is supposed to send by post, luckily I haven't any seller claim they have sent it but didn't arrive, although I've had items damaged by the courier (chucking it over garden gate) and items "not as described".
> 
> What I was talking about in my OP were collection only (or can collect) items and the sellers didn't reply to messages asking for their address, so it's obvious they didn't want to sell, and no money changed hands. I wasn't really bothered not getting the bargains although it would have been nice*, it's the waste of time and effort searching, watching, bidding, sending messages that's annoying.
> 
> ...



Tricky - but still worth a mention to ebay - they have posted items on their site agreeing to it's T&C's which is still a legal contract - a word to the seller to that effect, maybe with the "reporting online fraud" link might give them a nudge to honor it. You might not have their details but Ebay certainly do and will be obliged to provide them in a criminal investigation.

It's not about the bargain - the principle applies anywhere - selling a car and only getting £3,000 instead of £3,500 but without having put a reserve on it.

Using any auction house, online or otherwise, if you don't put a reserve whatever the bid is at the hammer... that's all you're getting, and you can be legally forced to honour it.

My opinion is the more people are allowed to pull this stunt the more common it will be to the point all sellers using the bid system may be inclined to try their luck for more, so they need a reminder it's illegal.


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## graduate_owner (9 Feb 2015)

Hi FLH,
What happened with me was I had no reply from the seller after the initial communication, so I opened a case with eBay. The NEXT DAY I had an email from paypal saying there had been a refund made to my PayPal account and sure enough, there it was. About 5 days later I checked my PayPal account and the refund was still shown, so I closed the case with eBay. The NEXT DAY (literally, the very next day) I had another email from Paypal saying the refund failed because the seller did not have enough funds in his account (£5). 
EBay could not help because I had closed the case, but have me a telephone number for paypay. They told me to explain fully the details on line, but after writing it all out in detail, the message could not be sent ( can't remember why now).
So I just got fed up, I felt I had better things to do with my time, and wasn't worth messing about for a fiver.

I wanted members to be aware of the refund issue. It could be for a much larger amount for someone next time. The last time I had a refund I waited about 3 weeks before leaving feedback just to make sure the refund did not disappear again.

K


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## JohnPW (10 Feb 2015)

On Ebay's "Seller doesn't want to sell" help page is this:



> Need to talk to someone?
> 
> Item: xxxxxxxxxxx
> Item number: xxxxxxxxxx
> ...



Then there 2 action you can take:



> *I’ve paid for the item but haven’t received it yet, and I want to open an eBay Money Back Guarantee case.
> *I haven’t paid for the item or I’ve been refunded, and I want to report the seller.



If you choose report the seller, you have to to phone Ebay (although it's a 0800 number).

It seems an item being broken or no longer available are valid reasons not to sell. So I wouldn't expect Ebay to take any actions against the seller apart from a very mildly worded warning saying something like they are obliged to sell etc but if the item's no longer available or broken then it's OK!


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## JohnPW (17 Mar 2015)

I've just had another seller who didn't want to sell. It's very simple, after the auction's ended, they just clicked "cancel" without having to contact the buyer first, that's it! They probably had to choose a "valid" reason, like item not available or item broken.

Of course the seller will get a well deserved negative feedback.


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## Mike.S (17 Mar 2015)

I recently had a similar occurence - 3 large cross cut saws 'sold' for 99p, cash on collection. The seller delayed responding to messages and then offered to deliver (all for 99p!) but needless to say it all went quiet. Just left negative feedback. 

In case it's of interest I just collected a 'signed-for' package from Royal Mail, where I'd previously made two online requests for re-delivery. It was an ebay purchase and to avoid a long story I wont quote it in full. The interesting bit (at least for me) is that if RM can't find a 'signed for' parcel they do nothing - no notification to sender or recipient (despite my providing email and mobile details). It was only because I went down to the office and was a persistent nag that the guy eventually found the item in a drawer - apparently it had been 'mis-filed :evil:


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## blackrodd (17 Mar 2015)

I've sold a bit on flea bay in the past, The first item I offered was a motorbike wheel, with brand new tyre fitted.
Judging by previous research, This should have been sold for around £70.
I started at £9.99, and that's what it sold for!
I packed, and sent it, learning my first valuable lesson, which was do not start the bid at less than you're very bottom
acceptable price.
The next one, some time later was started at £39.99 eventually selling for around the £60. mark.
I have also decided that It's very easy, by starting too low, to be dealing with the cheap skate element, looking for a Bently for 50p! and prone to moaning about everything imaginable.
Regards Rodders


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## Racers (17 Mar 2015)

I won a rear shock for my motorbike for 99p and he sent it!

Pete


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## Graham Orm (17 Mar 2015)

On the opposite end of the scale. 

I sold some boots that were in new condition. Obviously I put their size in the ad. They sold for a reasonable figure. Almost immediately the auction had ended, I got a message from the buyer saying he'd thought they were a different size and didn't want them. I contacted Ebay, they contacted him, he sent payment and I sent his boots.
All done very quickly.


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## JohnPW (17 Mar 2015)

blackrodd":xf42uen6 said:


> I've sold a bit on flea bay in the past, The first item I offered was a motorbike wheel, with brand new tyre fitted.
> Judging by previous research, This should have been sold for around £70.
> I started at £9.99, and that's what it sold for!
> I packed, and sent it, learning my first valuable lesson, which was do not start the bid at less than you're very bottom
> ...



I think there's a couple of reasons why sellers start at a low price but don't accept their obligations if the final price is not to their liking.

Lower Ebay fees, and to attract more bidders ie higher final price.

As you say, if a seller doesn't want to sell for 99p, then don't start the auction at 99p!


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## Graham Orm (17 Mar 2015)

I wonder how it would affect things if you started at 99p but stated in the terms below that you were not prepared to sell for less than £20 rather than setting a minimum. Would Ebay see it and pull it?


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## mseries (17 Mar 2015)

Graham Orm":2hrzieha said:


> I wonder how it would affect things if you started at 99p but stated in the terms below that you were not prepared to sell for less than £20 rather than setting a minimum. Would Ebay see it and pull it?


It's against the T&Cs, unless you set a reserve you have agreed to sell to the highest bidder - whomever and whatever the bid maybe. You've entered into the contract by listing the auction and the bidder has by bidding. Ebay charge for a reserve price so they'll not be too happy and I suspect will pull the auction if they learn about it as the seller is breaching their rules


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## RogerP (17 Mar 2015)

All the "Terms and Conditions" sellers like to tag onto their auction listings are really a waste of time as when it comes to the crunch only T&Cs that count are eBay's and PayPal's.

It's all very simple really. Sellers either list as an auction and the highest bidder, above any reserve, wins or list as a BIN and the first one to click the button wins. If a seller refuses to sell eBay will give the seller a black mark and more than 3 and they'll chuck the seller off eBay for a month or so. Do it again and the ban is permanent and they block the IP address.


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## Ring (17 Mar 2015)

Just been a court case about a motorhome that someone bought but seller refused to part with it so it went to court and according to the judge ebay= no contract


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## Eric The Viking (18 Mar 2015)

Ring":3n4lu49j said:


> Just been a court case about a motorhome that someone bought but seller refused to part with it so it went to court and according to the judge ebay= no contract



Sadly, eBay and similar operations are NOT auction houses within the usual meaning in UK law. At least, that was the situation in eBay's early days over here, as there were several cases establishing this (I think Rafzetter is involved in the law and thus has better knowledge than me so i'm happy to be proven wrong).

One of the issues is that the contracts aren't the same as a normal auction: in the 'real' world, the auctioneer acts as the seller's agent (primarily), and a contract exists at the fall of the hammer: offer (the bid), acceptance (the hammer), and consideration (goods and money changing hands). 

Ebay does not act in this way - both seller and buyer have contracts with the company, but there is no contract directly between the two of them. I'd be surprised if it could be successfully argued in court that eBay acts as an auctioneer, as it is not acting solely in the buyer's interest, being bound (albeit differently) to both parties. If it does anything, it's some sort of escrow.

It's even more complex because eBay operates in many different jurisdictions and allows cross-border purchases. The 'auction rules' - that the fall of the hammer is a binding contract - are specific to English law* (and inherited by the USA, I believe). There are other places where this doesn't apply, and there has been at least one big case recently (IIRC, about a very expensive Chinese vase), where the buyer backed out and suggested they weren't covered by English law. Can't remember what happened in that case, but the seller was trying to force the sale to complete.

The point being that, even if our law changed by statute to classify eBay and similar as auction houses, it's highly unlikely this could be applied globally. Ebay themselves have no incentive to do it anyway.

E. 

*I think even Scottish law is different to an extent in this area. They have had timed auctions on property, for example, for centuries (pins stuck in candles, etc.). Aggain, happy to be corrected.


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## bugbear (18 Mar 2015)

Ring":ezq7y4yr said:


> Just been a court case about a motorhome that someone bought but seller refused to part with it so it went to court and according to the judge ebay= no contract



That's interesting. Got a link?

BugBear


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## Graham Orm (18 Mar 2015)

bugbear":8h4ty6vf said:


> Ring":8h4ty6vf said:
> 
> 
> > Just been a court case about a motorhome that someone bought but seller refused to part with it so it went to court and according to the judge ebay= no contract
> ...



http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/expe ... onned.html


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## bugbear (18 Mar 2015)

Graham Orm":2ltvpth9 said:


> bugbear":2ltvpth9 said:
> 
> 
> > Ring":2ltvpth9 said:
> ...



Yes, googling found me a few disputed purchases and scams, but I couldn't find the court case "Ring" was referring to, with its interesting ruling.

BugBear


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## Graham Orm (18 Mar 2015)

I couldn't find that one either Stew.


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## RobinBHM (18 Mar 2015)

In the case of the motorhome, the payment was done directly through a bank account not through paypal, so it would seem to me in that case ebay is acting as not much more than an advertiser a bit like autotrader. 

the only safe way to buy a vehicle privately is to pay cash on collection so there is a swap at the same time. That wont stop you ending up with a clocked, cut 'n' shut mind you!


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## Ring (19 Mar 2015)

I actually got this from sad i know the motorhome page on facebook  


https://www.facebook.com/groups/6120855 ... k%20buster 


Now, the MH you see here isn't a scam. But it's worth telling this little story. 

A friend of mine won an item on eBay a few months ago and the seller refused to sell it to him, because the price wasn't as much as the seller had wanted. It had been a no-reserve auction. 

My friend took the seller to court. And lost. This was just a few days ago. 

The judge, in her summary, compared the scenario to a shop, in which the shop owner can choose to sell to a customer or not. 

So when you see a motorhome like this one here - on a no-reserve auction on eBay - at first it seems quite exciting because on the face of it you might win the auction at well below the asking price of £23,950. But if the seller puts up a fight - and who knows, he might - be warned. In law, it seems, eBay's auctions are not actually auctions at all. 

And that potentially has pretty profound implications for eBay if this court-case were to be covered in the national press. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201309477543 
this is the van back up for sale due to ruling


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## caretaker (19 Mar 2015)

I sold a bran new toaster for £8.50 starting prise with free post, it went for £8.50 and the post was over £11.
That's life in the fast lane.


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## RogerP (19 Mar 2015)

caretaker":2dehgqe8 said:


> I sold a bran new toaster for £8.50 starting prise with free post, it went for £8.50 and the post was over £11.
> That's life in the fast lane.


Sorry to hear that but I think you need to check which carriers to use. Should have cost no more than about £5.

https://www.parcel2go.com/


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## JohnPW (31 Mar 2015)

AndyT":206zc5b5 said:


> I think I've had the same thing where the very nice old book that I'd "won" for the opening bid had somehow been damaged by a sudden flood and could not be sold... I don't think there is anything you can do about it but shrug and move on.



I've just bought a book from one of those Ebay booksellers with a huge turnover (62,000 feedbacks in the last month alone).

It was a Buy it Now at what seems to be the going rate for a common book; £3 inc P&P. However the book is an out of print obscure woodwork tool book that has been superseded by 2 newer editions, and £3 is a good price for it!

The book's been mysteriously damaged in the post to such an extent that it's "unreadable", and the “postal system” has return it to the seller, who has then sent it to be "recycled", all within a few days.

Yeah right...

I'll get a refund of course but the seller will get a neg feedback！


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