# BOWL GOUGE.



## Paul.J (8 Nov 2006)

Hello everyone.This is my first posting and i'm afraid it is for help.
I have recently started to try and do some bowl turning and other little projects for the first time,using an home made chuck made of Oak.
The chuck seems to work well but i am having trouble with my bowl gouge,it keeps wanting to dig in.
Is there a certain way you have to use these gouges.I have tried working from the centre out and inside edge in, trying to hold the gouge at varying angles but it still wants to dig in.
The other problem i am finding is vibration.I manage to turn the piece nice and round,no problems their,but when i get so far the piece starts to vibrate as though it as gone out of alignment.Is this usual or am i doing something wrong.
Thank you.

PAUL.J


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## OLD (8 Nov 2006)

Its a long time since i did any turning but you need sharp tools and they need sharpening alot turn from large dia to small the single bevel should rest/rub on the wood you then steer and push.The toolrest below center line and close to job ,you get a nice sound when the tool is cutting well the above is just a start its actually quite difficult.


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

Hi and welcome aboard Paul



> Is there a certain way you have to use these gouges.



The short answer is yes! The long answer is that the angle of presentation is dpenedent upon several factors... take a look at the late Keith Rowley's book and video prob at your local library. It will give you some pointers but...

It's a poor substitute for watching and questioning someone as they show you the 'hows'



> The other problem i am finding is vibration.I manage to turn the piece nice and round,no problems their,but when i get so far the piece starts to vibrate as though it as gone out of alignment.



Here again several factors may be at play... without watching you work I would have to guesstimate whta's happening... I'm not going to try 'cos that could add to the problem rather than be of help to you.

You'll find the usual (almost standard ) advice is to join a club and watch 
other turners ... don't be afraid to ask "Why do it that way?" (beware some (very few in reality) are miserable sods who wouldn't give you the time of day)

Another solution would be to attend a course (No! I'm not advertising  )
3 hours will put you at the start of the right road... ( a full day would be better)


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## Roger (8 Nov 2006)

Hi Paul

As Graham says - get yourself some good videos / DVD's to work through, or better still, take a short course from a good turner.

If you put your location in your profile, it would help others here to give you advice. I've got Jimmy Clewes 15 minutes from me .....


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## CHJ (8 Nov 2006)

Paul Johnston":1zzqu1v8 said:


> ...snip...The other problem i am finding is vibration.I manage to turn the piece nice and round,no problems their,but when i get so far the piece starts to vibrate as though it as gone out of alignment.Is this usual or am i doing something wrong.
> Thank you.
> PAUL.J



Paul, it may be that the Bowl is going out of round due to the wood warping as you release the stresses.

If you do not complete the piece in a reasonable timescale and leave it on the lathe for any period of time it WILL BE out of round by an amount dependant on the wood type and moisture content.

Another thing that may cause your vibration is the varying density of the piece of wood.

As has been said if you indicate your location, someone near may be able to help diagnose your problems.

I am assuming your lathe does not develope vibrations after the same period of time with nothing in the chuck.


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## Paul.J (10 Nov 2006)

Hello everyone.
Thanks for the advice and help.Much appreciated.
I suppose a course would be the answer seeing as i have read books and looked at videos.
Seeing as how i have got a lathe thats redundant i just thought i would have a go at doing something different,i used it for turning the posts for the rocking horses i used to make.
This is the first time that i have tried turning a bowl since i left school and that's thirty years ago.
I did spend most of yesterday trying varying ways of using the bowl gouge but after a couple of nice cuts it still wanted to dig in.I managed to finish the bowl though using a round nose scraper.???This cut nice and smooth.I must say that i really have enjoyed doing this bowl and can't wait to do another or someting similar.I think i'm hooked.
I have been looking at some of the pieces on here and i can see that i have a looooooong way to go to get to those standards.Fantastic.

Chas.My lathe which is a Record DML24 runs nice and smooth with no vibration.
Roger.Sorry i don't mean to be ignorant,but who's Jimmy Clewes??

Paul J.


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## Roger (10 Nov 2006)

Jimmy Clewes - probably one of the best there is:

Jimmy Clewes

If you are using a long grind fingernail profile, it 'sounds' like you're using the tip or getting too perpendicular with the tip of the gouge and getting the dig in. That's only a guess w/o seeing how you're holding it.


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## Anonymous (10 Nov 2006)

*Paul*, take another look at the video(s) of a bowl gouge in use... 

pay particular attention to the starting position of the cut and it's subsequent travel across the face of the bowl...

note also, the position of the flute relative to the vertical as it traverses...

compare what you see with what you do... 

I should have said earlier... make *very* fine cuts, not only does it develop your skill but it also minimises any catch damage... with the bonus that you may be able to work out *why* the catch happened

If you're passing peterborough anytime, get in touch... no charge for a quick demo :wink:


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## Paul.J (11 Nov 2006)

Thanks for the offer Graham,but i now no longer am able to drive,otherwise i would take you up on your offer.
I do do fine cuts with the gouge and have tried watching why it digs in,maybe it's just the timber.I will try another piece soon and see how i get on with that.I'm sure i am doing everything right.
I have read the books on this particular problem time and time again.Which is why i think i am doing it right.

Paul.J.


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## Anonymous (11 Nov 2006)

Paul, I'll leave you in the capable hands of my old mate;

Percy Vere :lol:


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## Paul.J (11 Nov 2006)

I've heared a lot of him though.


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## Steve620 (15 Nov 2006)

Paul
I'm in exactly the same boat and have tried the same things. If you get a result please let me know. I'm just off to get some more knocks and try different angles of tool over the rest

Steve


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## Paul.J (15 Nov 2006)

Hello Steve.
I thought it was just me.
I am planning to turn another bowl soon and i will let you know how i get on.
In the mean time though i have managed to turn a small trinket box and an egg-hollowed out,and an egg cup with no problems.
I thought these three would have been more difficult and the bowl been the easier.Just shows.

Paul.J.


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## PowerTool (16 Nov 2006)

Paul - what timbers have you been using ? Some are easier to work than others.
Or have all these smaller items been automatically making you take smaller,more controlled cuts ?

Just a couple of thoughts,

Andrew


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## Paul.J (16 Nov 2006)

Hello Andrew.
I used Hawthorne for the egg and trinket box and Ash for the cup.
I used a smaller bowl gouge 6mm using it the same way as the 12mm one which i was having trouble with.
They both look to be ground at the same angle.
The Oak i was using for the bowl was well seasoned,off cuts i have had for years,where as the Ash and the Hawthorne were cut down 3-4 years ago.So perhaps these are still green???
Can i ask how long is a timber like i have used green for? :-k 

Cheers.

Paul. J.


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## Russell (16 Nov 2006)

Paul can you photograph your bowl gouge including a close up of the tip, It will help with suggestions as to the best way to use it. It is difficult to advise without knowing how it is set up.


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## PowerTool (16 Nov 2006)

General rule-of-thumb for air drying is one year per inch thickness,and anything thicker than four inches is difficult to air dry.
If the timber was left in the round,it could still be a little green.Also,were you turning them all cross-grain (like a conventional bowl blank) or hollowing into end-grain (like a spindle between centres)?

Sorry I've got questions and no answers  ,but sometimes I think too much :wink: 

Andrew


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## Paul.J (17 Nov 2006)

Hello.
Russel. I have had a look at how to put photos on here and i think it is beyond me to put a photo on here.it seems quite complicated.  
Is this proceedure as complicated as it seems.I am no computer whizz far from it. i'm amazed at what i do do on here.
The gouge though is a brand new Record 3/8" bowl gouge (i thought it was 1/2") my mistake.Model No ch 602.
I haven't tried re- grounding it as it does cut nice when i can get it to cut.

Andrew.The bowl was turned cross grain,but the smaller items were turned end grain.

Cheers.

Paul.J.


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## Russell (17 Nov 2006)

If its a standard grind Record CH602 it does in my opinion need grinding. The gouge its self is OK nothing wrong with Record tools. The ears on the gouge need to be removed and the gring swept back a little. I would not put a fingernail grind on the gouge yet. I will post a couple of pictures but can't at the moment. If you check my web site there are some images under sorby chisels that may show the kind of grind I would put on. Im sure it is the ears of the chisel that cause you to dig in.


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## Paul.J (17 Nov 2006)

Hello Russell.
I see what you mean.
I think you might have solved my problem :lol: ..I did think it might have been that as looking at the books and videos those gouges did seem ground back more,i just thought it was the turners choice,and with this being a new gouge i had to learn how to use it properly.
It did seem to be the corner that was catching but it happens that fast that you can't really be sure.
I was just blaming myself thinking i was doing something wrong.
I will be turning another bowl next week and i will grind the gouge back a little and let you know how i get on.

Having looked at your website Russell i was thinking of upgrading my DML 24 with the Record upgrades so i could have the swivel head to turn larger bowls.
Would it be worth me doing this or just buying the DML 36 which already have the new features.

Paul. J.


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## Russell (17 Nov 2006)

If you have just started turning hang on a little while before upgrading your lathe there are far to many turners that upgrade a lathe a little then upgrade again a year later. Its far better to hang fire learn a little bit about your own abilities and what you want to do in the future. then buy a lathe to suit. I am on my 4 lathe in 7 years because I was impatient. Far better to spend you money wisely than rush into things. On the other hand if a bargain comes along snap it up. :lol: 

Good luck with your next bowl


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## Paul.J (23 Nov 2006)

Good news.sort of.
Turned my second bowl using my bowl gouge without re grind.this time there were no dig ins:lol:????I used it in the same way as previous bowl.Any thoughts anyone.:? 
The only problem i had was when i was using the round nose scraper to finish off was that i started to get bad vibration through the tool sort of knocking on the tool rest,even doing it as fine as possible.This caused the fibres to tear out on the end grain section spoiling the inside of the bowl.The outside was perfect. with no tear out. 

Paul.J.


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## Anonymous (23 Nov 2006)

Paul Johnston":1n38ov4w said:


> The only problem i had was when i was using the round nose scraper to finish off was that i started to get bad vibration through the tool sort of knocking on the tool rest...



A couple of possibilities... too much cutting surface in contact with the inside of the bowl... too much overhang, how far was the cutting edge from the front of the tool rest?

Was the scraper held flat or at an angle?


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## Paul.J (24 Nov 2006)

Graham.
The tool was held flat at a slight downwards angle,and the tool rest was in as close as i could get it.But the knocking did start at the furthest point,which was about 1" away from the work piece.

Paul.J.


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## Anonymous (24 Nov 2006)

My guess Paul is that there was just a little too much of the cutting edge in contact... back to Percy :wink:


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## Paul.J (25 Nov 2006)

Thanks Graham.
Me and Mr Vere will continue together for quite a while yet i suspect....but these are early days and i am pleased with what we have achieved so far.
Things can only get better.I hope.

Paul.J.


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## joekid (27 Jan 2007)

hi paul i had the same problem ,i now use the bowl gouge sort of on a 30 - 45 degree angle and pull from the widest to the narrowest part of the wood,i also use hawthorn ,i have better luck with a home made rouging gouge,


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## Paul.J (29 Jan 2007)

Hello Joekid.
Thanks for that.
I think i have now sorted my problem out by grinding the ears back on the gouge.This seemed to work when i tried last.Unfortuneately i haven't had much chance to do much turning lately even with my new lathe  
I'm getting their though.How you finding turning Hawthorne.
I've been offered some holly.A trunk about 8 foot long 8"dia.I didn't think it grew like that. :?: :?: 
Paul.J.


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## PowerTool (29 Jan 2007)

Paul - I've had holly in similar proportions,so it's not too rare.It is,however,_very_ awkward to dry,and likely to split/check.Quite nice to turn when wet,but will probably warp as it dries  

Andrew


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## Anonymous (29 Jan 2007)

Holly... as *Andrew* says, it's a beggar to dry well but more than worth the effort.

If you stack it there's a tendency for it to discolour green at the point of contact... if you're successful it will dry to a very clean white which when worked and polished can resemble ivory... more often than not it dries to a murky grey...

I've had luck with small branches that have been split down the middle and left to dry on a shelf in the workshop... ends were coated in diluted pva


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## Paul.J (30 Jan 2007)

Thanks Andrew,Graham.
I was a bit reluctant to have the Holly as Andrew you have said how difficult it is to dry before,but i think i will give it a go.I had a quick look at it a few weeks ago it's just been left on the ground and the trunk looked straight,with no splits or cracks that i could see.It as been cut down for about 18 months.
So what would be the best way store it.Will it be best to cut down into smaller pieces,or leave it as it is.I can store it in a dry place outside.
QUESTIONS...QUESTIONS...QUESTIONS. :roll:


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## Bodrighy (30 Jan 2007)

Paul Johnston":1q8d6y1x said:


> Hello.
> Russel. I have had a look at how to put photos on here and i think it is beyond me to put a photo on here.it seems quite complicated.
> Is this proceedure as complicated as it seems.I am no computer whizz far from it. i'm amazed at what i do do on here..



It isn't really that difficult. Follow these instructions

1. Go here http://photobucket.com/
register and then follow the instructions. You will have your photo uploaded to the internet. 
2. Right click on your image shown in photobucket and copy the address. (highlight, right click copy)
3. open a new message here and click on img at the top
4. right click and paste
5. click on img again then submit. 
Your photo should appear in all it's glory. 

Any questions get back and I am sure I or someone else will help.

Pete


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## Alf (30 Jan 2007)

Bodrighy":1j7bdd8a said:


> 5. click on img again then submit.


Or better still - Preview. If you don't see the image in Preview, neither will we.


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## Anonymous (30 Jan 2007)

A suggestion for the holly: split it down the middle, pva the ends of one piece and place it _out of _the rain, sun, high temps (e.g.shed on a sunny day)and draughts. Put it in the diary to check again next year.

Cut the second piece up to whatever size suits, paint the ends with pva and follow storage as above.

Place one of the smaller pieces in a supermarket plastic bag, weigh it, mark the date and weoight on the outside of the bag. Place in the airing cupboard. Each day open and re-close the bag. After 2 weeks re-weigh the bag... note any weight loss on the bag (with the date!). Do the same re-weigh process every week, not forgetting to open and close the bag daily)... when the weight has been the same for 2 weeks... it's ready to use!


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## CHJ (30 Jan 2007)

Another suggestion for the Holly, whilst the rest is stored as per Grahams post.

Rough turn a piece 'green' to approx 3 times the intended finished thickness, Boil (simmer) for 1 hr, or 20min in pressure cooker.

Wrap outside in paper as per this article store indoors for about a month, it should be at about 8% moisture by this time and with any luck minimum cracks. Avoid core wood if possible.


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## Paul.J (30 Jan 2007)

Thanks Pete/Alf.
I will give it a go,or do i need more posts to qualify. :?: 
Pete would you still be interested in seeing the diagrams of the home made chuck if all is well. :?: 

Graham/Chas.I will follow your instructions and let you know how i get on,i will be picking the log up this weekend,hopefuly i will be able to post a piccy or two of some successful turnings. :wink: 
Paul.J.


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## Bodrighy (30 Jan 2007)

Paul Johnston":z211f9bo said:


> Thanks Pete/Alf.
> I will give it a go,or do i need more posts to qualify. :?:
> Pete would you still be interested in seeing the diagrams of the home made chuck if all is well. :?:
> 
> .


Pictures speaka thusand words so yes I'd be interested. If you can';t get this to work I'll see if Ican make up a guide with images that I can put up for you
Good luck
Pete


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## Paul.J (31 Jan 2007)

Hello Pete.
This is my first attempt at downloading photos.Somehow i don't think it as worked.I can't see any images in preview :?: 
Paul.J.


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## DaveL (31 Jan 2007)

Paul Johnston":1qwi8qbm said:


> This is my first attempt at downloading photos.Somehow i don't think it as worked.I can't see any images in preview :?:


Paul,

Have you seen the guide to posting pictures, here? If you are still having problems ask and we will try to help you out.


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## Paul.J (31 Jan 2007)

[/img]





Hello Dave.
Just tried Adams way and have got the address of the piccy but no image,though it seemed something downloaded??????
I got an headache


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## Anonymous (31 Jan 2007)

The pic is def there ... just a try


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## Paul.J (31 Jan 2007)

Graham,hows that happened,and why is it so small:?: :?: 
I have just been reading the probs you were having and was just about to give up on the idea for good,but i must have done something right some where.Thre are 2 piccys so can i do 2 or more at a time or is it 1 at a time.
I 've got plenty of paracetomols in :lol: 

p.s nice turnings.
Paul. j.


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## Alf (31 Jan 2007)

Paul Johnston":2japxtaw said:


> [/img]


Right, let's see if we can explain this one rather than just fix it 

First up you've got all sorts or extra img tags and brackets [ about the place. You need a clean:


```
[img]IMAGE ADDRESS HERE[/img]
```

Instead of what you have, which is:


```
[/img][img]IMAGE ADDRESS HERE[/[/img]
```

So like this:


```
[img]http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/Paul-Jay_photos/th_chuck1.jpg[/img]
```

Which should give this:






Now the size is because these image hostings places like Photobucket helpfully make a thumbnail size for you. I don't use PB myself, so can't tell you how to pick the right image, but I can edit the thumbnail address to make it BIG. Simple when you know; just remove the bit in bold:

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/Paul-Jay_photos/*th_*chuck1.jpg

Like this:

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/ ... chuck1.jpg

And add the img tags like this:


```
[img]http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/Paul-Jay_photos/chuck1.jpg[/img]
```

Except it's a bit wide, so I'll get fancy and create a clickable thumbnail like this:


```
[url=http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/Paul-Jay_photos/chuck1.jpg][img]http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/Paul-Jay_photos/th_chuck1.jpg[/img][/url]
```

To get this:





Clear as mud...

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (31 Jan 2007)

You don't need paracetamols when you've got an *Alf* :lol:


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## Paul.J (31 Jan 2007)

Alf i'm afraid it is as clear as mud.I was combining what Pete had told me to do with what Adam had wrote,which sort of worked i think.
This is why i didn't want to try and do photos as i knew how confusing it would be by what Adam had wrote.But i tdoes have it's benefits,so i will get back to Mr Percy Vere.
Graham i do need the paras (not them in uniform) believe me.


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## Alf (31 Jan 2007)

With all due respect to Adam, I think maybe the pic posting tutorial needs a bit of a revamp.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul.J (31 Jan 2007)




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## Paul.J (31 Jan 2007)

SUCCESS.Well sort of,pity about the size.Could this be because it was scanned rather than a photo :?: 
Anyway when i get some other piccys i will give em a go.
Thank all for your help.
Paul.J.


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## Alf (31 Jan 2007)

Paul, presumably you didn't resize the scanned image? If you use Windows XP there's a dead easy little doodah to adjust the size - go to the Power Toys page and ignoring the name :wink: download the Image Resizer. If you're using something else, come back and holler and I'm sure we can talk you through something fairly simple. 

Cheers, Alf


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## DaveL (31 Jan 2007)

Paul, 

Its small cause you linked to the thumb nail, how about this: 




Quite readable.


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## Alf (31 Jan 2007)

Readable, yes. Takes a while for the less broadband-enabled though...


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## Bodrighy (31 Jan 2007)

Thanks Paul & Dave, got it. Looks worth having a go at.

pete


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## Paul.J (31 Jan 2007)

Alf- I have downloaded the image re-sizer.Is this just for scanned images :?: .
Is there a size a photo should be,if so what is it. :?: 
I did forget to delete the th part of the last image.got too excited i think :roll: 
Dave thanks for that.I did try the link you gave earlier but nothing happened,so i presumed that it was Adams tutorial,which i had read before several times.
Pete-Thanks for showing me what to do and getting me started,just got confused with the address part.Alf as made the other page bigger so if you like have a look at it.It does work :lol: 
Paul.J.


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## Alf (1 Feb 2007)

Hi Paul,

Don't be disheartened, you're doing jolly well. We've had much, much worse. :wink:

The image resizer works for all jpegs iirc, so it'll cope with shots from a camera too. Chas has a break down on image sizes here (under the UKW Forum Support) but I can't tell you what was best 'cos I can't open the link 'cos he used blasted Frontpage which has written the usual crappy code. There, I feel better now... :wink: Personally I settled on 640 pixels wide as a good compromise (can't remember why now) occasionally up as much as 800 if the image needs extra detail.

Cheers, Alf


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## Bodrighy (1 Feb 2007)

640 is usually the smallest size available on a digital camera and is aimed at use in e-mails and for the web. Ideal for this sort of stuff here. 
In most reduction programs, the height and width will be altered proportionally but if it is a bit more sophisticated you may need to tick a box to ensure this happens. 

Pete


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## CHJ (1 Feb 2007)

Alf":39jmp6w9 said:


> ...snip... Chas has a break down on image sizes here (under the UKW Forum Support) but I can't tell you what was best 'cos I can't open the link 'cos he used blasted Frontpage which has written the usual crappy code. There, I feel better now...  :wink: ...snip...Cheers, Alf



There, there, there, whose a good girl really :wink: 

http://quest42.co.uk/woodwork/size/size.htm

It's not Frontpage by the way it's something to do with how Xara expresses its Javascript code. :roll:


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## Paul.J (1 Feb 2007)

Hello Alf.
Don't you go worrying yourself Alf i won't get disheartened,in fact i have managed to do some turning today and might if i can put a piccy on here. :wink: 
But,now here we go again-where do you re-size the piccy :?: .I have looked in photo bucket and can't see where you can do anything.Alls that' s there is the thumbnail.So if i re-size before it's uploaded too PB will i still just get the thumbnail size.
By the way since i put those 2 piccys on PB it has been taking ages to get onto the forum,now i've deleted them everything is fine :? 
Paul.J.


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