# tyzack tenon saw



## neilyweely (29 Apr 2008)

picked up a tenon saw at auction today, which cost a fiver!!

Lovely handle, blade is like a butter knife!! It is blunt, and the blade has a bend in it. Not a serious one, but noticeable

any advice on sharpening, sorting this saw please. I have an eclipse set for the saw, but again I don't quite get it.

please, any help will be greatly appreciated. Am considering sending it in to get it sorted, but if i could do it I would prefer it a lot

thanks folks

P,s does anyone know a good saw sharpening service/shop in my area?
Bedford area, or northants. Ta.


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## bugbear (29 Apr 2008)

neilyweely":44b80hdr said:


> picked up a tenon saw at auction today, which cost a fiver!!
> 
> Lovely handle, blade is like a butter knife!! It is blunt, and the blade has a bend in it. Not a serious one, but noticeable
> 
> any advice on sharpening, sorting this saw please.



http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html

However, I will say that getting the equipment and skill to do a good job, especially on a poor condition saw, is a long road.

BugBear


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## neilyweely (29 Apr 2008)

Bugbear
cheers mate

thats kinda what I thought.

there is a saw co jus down the road from me, guess I should take it there.

This is one blunt saw, some of the teeth have worn down to nothing. How much do you think I ought to be lookin at, bearing in mind it cost me a fiver i didn't plan on paying vast sums for sharpening it?

Must admit though, I like the look of it quite a bit so probly will pay to get it done.


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## bugbear (30 Apr 2008)

neilyweely":z8u5o3wh said:


> Bugbear
> cheers mate
> 
> thats kinda what I thought.
> ...



A "severe" sharpen and set is going to be at least a tenner, I think. I'm, not too aware of commercial rates, since I taught myself.

I'm afraid that's the viewpoint that killed traditional (soft) saws. How much you would be prepared to pay if someone had *given* you the saw - more or less than now you've paid a fiver for it?

Ultimately, if you want the rewards of a trad saw (looks nice, comfy handle, cuts well when sharpened, can be sharpened to suit the task) you have to pay the price, either in cash or effort.

Hardpoint saws are a shortcut, and widely (and perfectly legitimately) adopted because of it.

BugBear


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## neilyweely (30 Apr 2008)

hey bugbear

I went to the local saw shop today, who are quite a good supplier and repairer of saws and router bits. they said they cannot do anything with it, that its a lovely old saw but that it is such a skilled and time consuming job that no-one wants to do it, they were very good about it, and offered to shape it for me, but that I would have to sharpen it myself.

This saw is FLAT, all the teeth have worn to nothing and it is obviously quite useless as it is. I am in Bedford, does ANYONE know anyone who can HELP!!!!!

Otherwise I will have a crack , but will probly wreck it.

I need help here.


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## paulm (30 Apr 2008)

Have a look here Neil, lots of interesting stuff, and down near the bottom is a link to a pretty comprehensive article on sharpening.

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/fram ... brary.html

I used it to rehab my old man's greatly abused tenon saw and was a lot easier and more rewarding than I thought, although I did do it rip for cutting tenon cheeks which is a lot easier than crosscut admitedly.

I would give it a go, it's already useless and you have to start somewhere, not much chance of making it any worse !!!

Cheers, Paul.


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## neilyweely (1 May 2008)

ok chisel

notice you have answered my pleas for help before, thanks a lot my friend. If there is anything I can do........

within reason

Cheers mate, have copied all that text and saved it in a word doc, so will peruse at leisure later on...

Many thanks


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## bugbear (1 May 2008)

chisel":3qs458un said:


> ...I did do it rip for cutting tenon cheeks which is a lot easier than crosscut admitedly.



Yes - just to emphasize, IMHO a "quite fine" cross cut saw is about the hardest job of all.

Somewhere around a 14tpi tenon (shoulder) cutting saw.

BugBear


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## neilyweely (1 May 2008)

bugbear


ok, so today I bought a triangular file, 2 in fact, and read the text you sent me, 

must admit I still don't fancy it mate, if i could find a pro to do the job for me I would pay for it, so.....

Any ideas at all?


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## Paul Chapman (1 May 2008)

neilyweely":vu960ylt said:


> Any ideas at all?



Why not get some rubbish saws that you don't mind spoiling and practice on those till you get the hang of it. Better than spoiling a potentially good saw, I would have thought.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Rich (1 May 2008)

Hi Neil, try Bedford saws, the chap often posts on here and he sounds very helpful.
Rich.


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## neilyweely (1 May 2008)

paul

You are, of course, quite right. trouble is I have been lookin for som old saws for a while now, and the first I found was this old tyzack brass back tenon. Will it work on a hardpoint?

Rich

Hello buddy, Bedford Saw is exactly where I went in the first place. Nice guys, all of them, but they are the ones who said it just wasn't worth them doing. They have the saw at the mo though, and are shaping the teeth for me ( i hope )
Thanks for the idea though, any other ideas????

Cheers all.


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## bugbear (2 May 2008)

neilyweely":2id7wu77 said:


> paul
> 
> You are, of course, quite right. trouble is I have been lookin for som old saws for a while now, and the first I found was this old tyzack brass back tenon. Will it work on a hardpoint?
> 
> ...



OK. If you want to sharpen this saw, you need to learn to sharpen saws (doh!).

You will need some equipment:

* saw vice
* ordinary file
* saw jointer
* triangular files
* saw set


A metal saw vice (in this country) is rare and/or expensive.

If you have a large, deep throated metalwork vice, you might get by with that.

However, good saw vices can be made:

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/wwsawvice.html

http://dlaker.googlepages.com/Dscn4688s.jpg

(Alf subsequently lucked into a Diston D3 vise...)



You can get by (rather well) without a saw jointer, and in any case, a wooden block will serve. When topping and/or jointing the teeth, joint hold the file square across - that's the only purpose of a saw jointer, holding the file square.

Triangular file - easy to get.

For cross cut saws I strongly recommend my rake control gadget - I never had any success before I made it.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/shop_ ... le_pointer

Saw set - Eclipse 77, 1-2 quid at any car boot.

For the rest, my page has some info, and many links; Follow and read.

Twice.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html

Then go to a car boot, and buy a panel or hand saw. Should cost a quid. Look for a comfy handle; you never know, you might get a good saw.

Larger saws have larger teeth, which are more labour, but less concentration. Practice on this, before trying your nice Tyzack.

Bets of luck, and if you have any questions that aren't answered in my page, and the pages it links to - ask away!

BugBear


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## neilyweely (2 May 2008)

ok mate,
I have an old rip saw at my dads, I'll try out on that.

Bugbear, thanks a lot for taking the time to help a novice saw sharpener out. If you are ever coming out this way (Bedford) drop me a line and we'll talk saws and chisels!!!

Thanks again!
Neil


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## Harbo (2 May 2008)

Following a previous thread I am having another go at recutting my old Tyzac at 14TPI using a pair of hacksaw blades as a template.
Initial cuts only so far with a small hacksaw.

I have been reading Chris Schwarz's article on Western Backsaws in the Spring Woodworking mag. Historically, the Dovetail and Tenon saws were filed for rip cut - the Carcase and Sash saws were filed cross cut.

Rip is definitely easier than Xcut so perhaps I will stick to that with this one?












Here's my take on the Brent Beach jig:






The file has to be adjusted to be parallel to the dowel guide rod.

Rod - sorry about large pics - I thought I had solved that?


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## Paul Chapman (2 May 2008)

That looks interesting, Rod. Let's know how it turns out.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## neilyweely (4 May 2008)

harbo, paul et al

I had tried using a paper template to guide me on the saw blade, and never thought of using another saw blade, I guess it would work better.
Bedford Saw Co have the saw at the moment, I am confident they will shape it up nicely, and then i have to sharpen it.
So i will try your method with another blade, assuming it works ok.
Let me know how you get on Harbo, I need all the help I can get!!!

cheers all.

neil


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## bugbear (6 May 2008)

neilyweely":1fkk2zvz said:


> harbo, paul et al
> 
> I had tried using a paper template to guide me on the saw blade, and never thought of using another saw blade, I guess it would work better.



Not if you want an unusual pitch and/or spacing; I find paper templates work well, since you just file "through" them.

Once the teeth positions are marked, the paper comes off anyway.

BugBear


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## BedfordSaw (7 May 2008)

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments.

It's a problem that we have to live with now. We used to sharpen so many hand/tenon saws, that we have repetitive strain in our arms and joints.

For this reason, we cannot train anyone to do this job as they too would end up with this condition too.

Also finding good quality files is becoming really hard!

There was never a good enough machine made to sharpen hand saws, but we do however have an old machine that re-cuts the teeth.

We have 'neilyweely's' saw in our shop at the moment, and hopefully we can do something with it although it is in really bad shape!


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## bugbear (7 May 2008)

BedfordSaw":35m88cqv said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Thanks for the comments.
> 
> ...



Yes; I think sharpening (or more generally "looking after") old saws has to be done for love - there's no money it.

BugBear


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## neilyweely (9 May 2008)

Bedford Saw

Thanks for the work you did for me, the router bit etc.., I managed to take the surface out of a kitchen worktop and sink a slab of marble in to be used as a draining/chopping board. The bit cut as well as it did when i bought it, so you did a good job, thanks.

Although I don't know what you are doing reading these compliments when you've work to do!! :wink: 

I am totally confident in your ability to sort the saw out, and look forward to seeing it!!
I was at a bumpkin fair the other day, with the largest collection of tool stalls I have ever seen; old, new, all sorts. And no-one knew where I could get that saw sharpened! They could sell me an old sharp one, but once it got blunt I was on my own (that sounds familiar!!!)

thanks again

Neil


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## Harbo (18 May 2008)

I have had another 2 goes at sharpening my old saw to cross cut without a great deal of success. I now have a saw that will cut in a fashion but with a very strange looking teeth arrangement! 
The Beach jig did not work well on this saw and may be more suitable for the larger handsaws? In the end I followed the method in the Vintage Saws Primer.

It did however get me looking at other backsaws I have in my possession including my new Wenzloffs. None of them appear to be filled with any fleam ie they have been filed across at right angles - which is much easier to do. The saws I thought as crosscut have the correct 12 to 15 degree rake but zero fleam.
In fact the only saw I have with Fleam is a Sandvik hard point 5T handsaw which I thought was a Rip?? My 10T Disston D8 (Cross-cut I thought) is filed as a Rip.

I am now thinking that Fleam for a backsaw is unnecessary and perhaps should just concentrate on the Rake? 

I am very confused.

Rod :?


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## neilyweely (18 May 2008)

Oh Harbo

I was all set up to have a crack at the old rip saw today, and thought I'd check the forum first. Then I read your post.

Think I'll make my daughter a rabbit hutch instead, sounds a lot easier!
I am beginning to think it a waste of money to buy old saws now, don't think I'll be buying anymore.

Which leaves me with a hole in my life that needs to be filled with something, maybe it's time to buy that new router table........
Thanks Harbo. You just cost me a fortune!!! :wink: :wink: 

Cheers folks

Ps - Any good news from Bedford Saw welcome......


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## Harbo (18 May 2008)

Here's a piccy of it:







The saw was in a very bad condition - it belonged to my grandfather so I only wanted to renovate it for sentimental reasons. I have not tried to apply any set and really don't want to do any more on it as it is getting a bit narrow!

The Brent Beach jig is a bit unwieldy for saws of this size and one thing I noticed is that the slider notch has to be as close to the slider as possible as the file swings in an arc from this point . Also the rake has to be adjusted when set up on the saw with another small angle profile I made. Much easier to use a guide alignment jig out a small piece of wood.

I have not given up entirely with my other saws but will file to rip fleam only.

Rod


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## JesseM (18 May 2008)

Harbo":u62juaw9 said:


> I have not given up entirely with my other saws but will file to rip fleam only.
> Rod


I don't know if this helps, but I've read that when shaping to not worry about the fleam angle and just concentrate on shaping the tooth, Then when sharpening apply the fleam appropriately.


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## bugbear (19 May 2008)

Harbo":3q4jforv said:


> None of them appear to be filled with any fleam ie they have been filed across at right angles - which is much easier to do. The saws I thought as crosscut have the correct 12 to 15 degree rake but zero fleam.



Are you sure? You're saying all the teeth have tops which are lines, not points?

BugBear


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## Harbo (19 May 2008)

Bugbear - yes no points when looking down on them and also no differences in the two sides when looking at right angles to blade - i.e. should see fleam cut on far side.
The carcase saw cuts very well though.

Pity MikeW does not seem to be reading the forum these days - I know he is busy.

Rod


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## Paul Chapman (19 May 2008)

Hi Rod,

I don't know whether you read Konrad's blog, but Mike has just made two pairs of saws for Konrad and his son, Riley (they're real crackers - but then all Mike's saws are) http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/news/ If you read the comments, Mike talks a little about how he approached the sharpening. Might be of some help.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Harbo (19 May 2008)

Hi Paul - thanks for the link - lovely saws (and planes)

I reread Mike's home page and it is I who has probably got it wrong as the Carcass saw does not say cross-cut - I just assumed it was?
I will have to check to see if the filing varies over the length?
It's only when you go to the Tenons that Mike offers a choice?

Rod


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## Anonymous (20 May 2008)

One tip about learning saw sharpening is that it is much easier to learn on a saw that is good shape to begin with. If the teeth are already shaped all you have to do is touch them up. This lets you get familiar with the filing angles and how things should look.


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## bugbear (21 May 2008)

Roger Nixon":3i796tss said:


> One tip about learning saw sharpening is that it is much easier to learn on a saw that is good shape to begin with. If the teeth are already shaped all you have to do is touch them up. This lets you get familiar with the filing angles and how things should look.



Yeah - reshaping uneven, unequal teeth is hard.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_s ... ml#reshape

BugBear


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## Harbo (21 May 2008)

I emailed Mike Wenzloff about the filing on my saws and much to my pleasant surprise got an immediate answer (as I know he is very busy with moves and back orders):



> The DT saw is a rip, about 8 degrees of rake and most likely a touch of fleam angle near the toe--and probably a little down its length, just less than at the toe. Reason is they are hand sharpened and it is near impossible to not introduce a little fleam angle.
> 
> The cross cut carcass would probably have been created with 15 or so degrees of rake and the same 15 degrees of fleam. However, when they get the final hand sharpening, both those angles would increase a little just due to the hand process. The fleam would have increased a bit more than rake. So I would guess the fleam on the carcass would have increased to about 20 degrees or a little less.



So I will have to look at them again more closely perhaps with my 10x eye glass?

Rod


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## bugbear (23 May 2008)

Harbo":114xf93y said:


> So I will have to look at them again more closely perhaps with my 10x eye glass?
> 
> Rod



If you're looking for fleam angle, you need to look in the bottom of the gullet; it's very hard to read slight fleam on the tooth.

Here's a 15 degree rake, 15 degree fleam, 10 TPI tenon saw, in a 0.035" saw plate






With apologies to anyone who's seen these photos before.

BugBear


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## Harbo (23 May 2008)

Here's a photo of the Wenzloff Carcass - sorry I cannot get any closer with the lenses I have:






It does not look like Xcut filing to me - still it seems to cut fine?

Rod - PS Excellent photos bugbear


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## neilyweely (23 May 2008)

erm, I feel totally out of my depth here now!

I am unsure I ever want to sharpen a saw myself, looking at the teeth on bugbears saw I don't think I am phsically capable of such fine (metal)work

I think I'll wait (and wait) and hope and pray for Bedford Saw to take sympathy on my poor misguided soul, and finish it for me.
I haven't heard from them in a while now, so am hoping all is well.

Does anyone know a place, maybe London area, that would do this saw for me. I don't mind admitting it, I am frit of messing it up!

Hope everyone is well.

neil


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## jmk89 (26 May 2008)

Neil

Don't let these guys talking about fleam and stuff put you off.

Read some of the old books about sharpening, such as the collection at toolemera.com and set about it slowly and methodically, following the instructions. Since you will have the shape of the teeth nicely made for you by Bedford Saws, you just need to put a little 'cut' on the teeth and a little bit of set, and you will be able to start cutting wood.

The old booklets from Disston and Tyzack make it very clear - you don't need much set - just a *little bit* at the *tip* of the tooth. More important is that you put the same amount on all the teeth and on both sides. All you are trying to do is to prevent the blade sticking in the kerf. Start with less set and just at the tip and if it cuts straight and without binding, don't do anything more. If it binds, but cuts straight, add a *touch* more set. If it binds to one side or wanders to one side, check that the set is even on each side and even it up (I'm assuming the saw is straight - check that too).

The old saying about being able to take more off, but not being able to put stuff you've taken off back on is really true when it comes to sharpening saws. Take it slowly and carefully and it is quite easy to improve the saw over where it is now. If you don't make a complete pig's ear of it, you will be able to keep on improving things each time you sharpen (or joint, shape, sharpen and set, if you want to do the lot) your saw.

As the French say - "C'est en forgeant on devient forgeron". You can't learn how to sharpen saws without sharpening a few.


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## bugbear (27 May 2008)

jmk89":3w1c7wzr said:


> Neil
> 
> Don't let these guys talking about fleam and stuff put you off.
> 
> Read some of the old books about sharpening, such as the collection at toolemera.com and set about it slowly and methodically, following the instructions. Since you will have the shape of the teeth nicely made for you by Bedford Saws, you just need to put a little 'cut' on the teeth and a little bit of set, and you will be able to start cutting wood.



Agreed. Go slow. Don't be bamboozled by all the discussion about which fleam, how much rake etc. These are secondary considerations.

What is _*needed*_ is a row of sharp tooth tips, all at the same height, all at the same set.

Evenness of shape looks lovely, but is surprisingly unimportant.

I will repeat that a fine-ish X-cut is (IMHO) the hardest saw of all to do.

BugBear


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## Peter Evans (6 Jun 2008)

Bugbear is correct, a fine xcut is very difficult, especially with fading aged eyes (I need all sorts of visual aids to do a xcut these days). However any rip saw, even a fine dovetail is straightforward, and I have no trouble at all. With a dovetail saw you do not even need setting in my experience. Do not rub the filing burr off the saw - do a few warm-up cuts and the roughness is soon worn away. You get nice thin cuts, and a dovetail cut is rarely greater than 19mm, so saw binding is not an issue. 

I have a large assortment of NOS saw files of most types and lengths, and if I can pick them up at fleas and on eBay from Australia, so can anyone in the northern hemisphere where most files were made.


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## bugbear (6 Jun 2008)

Peter Evans":d8fwspw9 said:


> However any rip saw, even a fine dovetail is straightforward, and I have no trouble at all. With a dovetail saw you do not even need setting in my experience.



My only difficulty with fine toothed rip saw with very littl set (e.g. dovetail) is spotting which is the "away" and "from" tooth.

I eventually decided to use very moderate fleam, which make the distinction visually evident.

My present DT is 8 degree rake and fleam; the rake allows easier starting, which is helpful for a weekender like me.

BugBear


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## neilyweely (6 Jun 2008)

this is all good, but to tell you the truth I still haven't heard from Bedford Saw Co. If you are reading this please get in touch, would like to get a progress report!

Thanks all.

neil


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