# dust extraction



## paul-c (27 Dec 2009)

christmas present was money to put towards a chip extractor and was hoping for advice from your experience.
i was looking at the axminster

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axmi ... 725305.htm

but is the more expensive camvac gv286w worth the extra money :?: 

http://www.camvac.co.uk/

it will be mostly only be used for my lathe but very occasionally for router etc.
thanks paul


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## CHJ (27 Dec 2009)

Paul, if the unit has to reside in your lathe shop as opposed to outside then that type (axminster link) of unit is useless for dust extraction.

The filter level is only suitable for collecting chippings and will just act to spread the generated dust around the shop.


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## paul-c (27 Dec 2009)

sorry CHJ 
should have explained i have already bought a Microclene MC400 .
the other chip collector will be to complement this unit - and if it helps dust extraction ,all the better. :lol:


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## kasandrich (27 Dec 2009)

You would need the optional extra filter for the Axminster or you will be sucking all the dust away from your work area and blowing it into the atmosphere, which is worse, and this will create excess work for your microclene.

Also I understand that type (the Axminster) are very noisy.


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## Hans (27 Dec 2009)

Paul,

I use something similar, the Axminster ADE1200.
I think I had more dust in my workshop with this extractor on than off.
The dust level only improved after I installed a fine dustfilter.
I would heed Chas suggestion, put it outside or use a fine particle filter.

An overview of dustcontrol in Hans' workshop
Hans


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## CHJ (27 Dec 2009)

paul-c":3lnhw5i5 said:


> sorry CHJ
> should have explained i have already bought a Microclene MC400 .
> the other chip collector will be to complement this unit - and if it helps dust extraction ,all the better. :lol:


Paul, I'm afraid your perception of dust control is somewhat awry, expecting your Microclean to be the main dust control source and anything else to be supplementary is the wrong way round.

Even in the best of circumstances of dust generated at the lathe the microclean will only be trapping dangerous dust at the same rate as your lungs unless you have a very good Airfed face mask.

In my LINK to dust control, I refer to an ambient air filter


> 1.*Install an Ambient Air Fine Dust filtering system in the workshop (it cleans the air eventually considerably reducing problem 2. above but your lungs are still doing the same thing in parallel if you are in the shop)



If a high volume chip type extractor is to be housed in the shop then you need the security of a pleated filter as shown in post above as a minimum.

My experience as one who is extremely allergic to certain dust/volatiles contact the only good extraction is one that dumps dust outside of the workshop.

Your Microclean is ideal to leave running after you leave the shop to finish polishing the air and leaving perfect conditions for a return to the shop and completing fine furniture finishing, it will do little to prevent you breathing dust leaving a spinning lathe.


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## Paul.J (27 Dec 2009)

> Your Microclean is ideal to leave running after you leave the shop to finish polishing the air and leaving perfect conditions for a return to the shop and completing fine furniture finishing, it will do little to prevent you breathing dust leaving a spinning lathe.


So what is the point in a Microclene :? 
As you say Chas you are still only breathing in the dust that is been created while you are working in that area.It doesn't clean the whole workshop,or does it.
Surely most of the dust will settle before it reaches the cleaner,so any movement in the shop after wil lift it again.
I just can't see the point in them.


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## CHJ (27 Dec 2009)

Paul.J":1imxnli4 said:


> As you say Chas you are still only breathing in the dust that is been created while you are working in that area.It doesn't clean the whole workshop,or does it.
> Surely most of the dust will settle before it reaches the cleaner,so any movement in the shop after wil lift it again.
> I just can't see the point in them.



The point is Paul that the most dangerous dust as you know is that which you can't see, and most of that is still circulating long after you have stopped moving around the shop, an ambient air filter traps a proportion of this whilst you are working and continues to clean the air after you have left. 
What proportion of 'floating' dust gets collected before it settles on a surface is down to size (air movement) of the unit, its placing etc. 
An effective unit is worth its weight in gold in a finishing shop but I doubt one would add any safety value in mine where the air exchange rate is so high.

It frightens me how many people do not relate the amount of dust caught on an ambient filter with that they are breathing and don't bother to wear a mask. One of my near neighbors was cleaning his ambient air filter with a domestic vacuum cleaner :roll: had no concept of where the dust was going.


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## Paul.J (27 Dec 2009)

I'm still not convinced Chas.
I can see that it cleans some of the air after you have left the shop,but only the dust that is in reach of the cleaner,the rest will settle where it falls,and if like my shop as draughts,the dust will be air borne again.
Is there any point in having it on when you are working,as the dust will be flying everywhere,surely it is best to have an airshield on of some sort when you are at the lathe or whatever.
Just to have a microcleaner to catch the dust is of no use at all,while working,wihout other protection on such as the Airshield or other means.
I feel they give a false sense of security against dust control.


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## CHJ (27 Dec 2009)

Exactly Paul.J, they are very effective in a flatworld cabinet making shop with little or no machine induced dust, even then it is prudent to wear a face mask when sanding, the high volumes of dust inherent with on the lathe work of dry woods and sanding need a much more aggressive collection at source for self protection, all dust collected is a bonus in any shop but the relevance of particular methods needs careful consideration.


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## cornucopia (27 Dec 2009)

the smallest the human eye can see (without a microscope etc) is 5 micron- if you can see it floating in the air its 5 micron or bigger.the dust which is most dangerous to us is smaller than 5 micron as that is the dust which gets past our defence's and into our lungs
imo a microclean is part of a healthy workshop but it MUST be combined with a respirator and fine dust extractor.
my set up is a mc1200 on all day and 2 hours after turning has finished- a trend airshield worn all day- two camvac's on all the while i'm sanding or turning a problematic wood.


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## PAC (27 Dec 2009)

cornucopia":1hqatnyc said:


> the smallest the human eye can see (without a microscope etc) is 5 micron



Apologies for being boring but the human eye, without any optical aids, can resolve particles down to around 0.1mm or 100 micrometres (microns). I used to be a professional electron microscopist...


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## laird (27 Dec 2009)

CHJ":8dj0zcze said:


> ..........of my near neighbors was cleaning his ambient air filter with a domestic vacuum cleaner :roll: had no concept of where the dust was going.



Whilst not disagreeing with you, maybe he read the Axi instructions for the excellent Axminster MTM Air Filter"...in most cases a quick run over the pre-filter with the vacuum will suffice, together with a clean-up of the main filter once a month."


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## paul-c (28 Dec 2009)

wow i didn't realise how comlicated it could actually be to remove what i initially thought was just "dust extraction".  
thanks for all the advice  
so CHJ from what you have said and reading your other page (http://quest42.co.uk/woodwork/html/dust.html ) ,i would actually do better to forget about a chip collector and upgrade to something like the trend air shield or similar first of all.
cheers paul


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## CHJ (28 Dec 2009)

laird":23p92itz said:


> CHJ":23p92itz said:
> 
> 
> > ..........of my near neighbors was cleaning his ambient air filter with a domestic vacuum cleaner :roll: had no concept of where the dust was going.
> ...



The point being. What type of filter is fitted to the average domestic vacuum cleaner and what does its exhaust do with the fine dust it sucks off the air cleaner?

I can't think of a more efficient way of re-distributing the dust collected by the ambient filter, I doubt many people dismount them and take the unit or its filters outside the shop to clean.


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## CHJ (28 Dec 2009)

paul-c":36iz3hhl said:


> wow i didn't realise how comlicated it could actually be to remove what i initially thought was just "dust extraction".
> thanks for all the advice
> so CHJ from what you have said and reading your other page (http://quest42.co.uk/woodwork/html/dust.html ) ,i would actually do better to forget about a chip collector and upgrade to something like the trend air shield or similar first of all.
> cheers paul



An Airshield will certainly provide you with better personal lung protection than a chip extractor.

In a commercial shop the onus is on removing the dust at source and personal protection is a last resort if the extraction is failing to meet the standard.
In a home workshop doing that would probably cost you more than all the other shop equipment in total and be somewhat impractical, therefore personal protection becomes the prime safety measure.


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## Jenx (29 Dec 2009)

PAC":nfmnalyi said:


> cornucopia":nfmnalyi said:
> 
> 
> > the smallest the human eye can see (without a microscope etc) is 5 micron
> ...



.... And with my eyesight ... the 'human eye' can just about detect the peas, next to the carrots and roasties. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
( new varifocals are helping a bit though !.. another sign of getting old ! heh heh )..
I agree with whats been said about dust control ... the microclean type units are only 'part' of what should be seen as a bigger picture... and most people fit them 'high'.. so any good its doing is coming right up past your face ( and nose / mouth ) whilst you're in there. A +ve pressure mask is the best protection if possible.. with the backup of the other mechanical aids, as said.
As George mentions.. the 'best' work the microclean does is done long after you're gone out the shed / workshop, and its helping to cleanse the residuals that you've left in your wake.

Chip collector isn't really the way to go... unless you have a habit of snorting up the chips :wink: 
Its the _fine particulate_ that you need to worry about.

Good luck in getting sorted out.. keep us updated ! 8)


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## dickm (29 Dec 2009)

Jenx":jd7bsasv said:


> Chip collector isn't really the way to go... unless you have a habit of snorting up the chips :wink:



... or can't open the door because of the depth of the pile of chips/shavings inside


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## Jenx (29 Dec 2009)

I wonder if thats just an 'Aberdeenshire habit' Dick ! 
I suspect perhaps not ! :wink:


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## miles_hot (30 Dec 2009)

Will a 3-5hp fan pulling through a "mike" drop box collect the dust from the lathe or do I need a Camvac type vacuum cleaner arrangement for that?

Many thanks

Miles


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## robo hippy (4 Jan 2010)

You can have a dust collection system that is safe to vent back into the shop. The nice thing about the pleated paper filters is that they can filter down to 1 micron, which is the most harmful stuff to breathe in. They have much more surface area to vent through, so you get better air flow. As to collecting at the source, a hose does a fairly good job of getting a lot of the dust. Having a venting hood on the end of the hose is better, and for me, a sanding hood that encloses about 70% of the bowl gets all of the dust, so I don't need to wear a dust mask. I have sanded black walnut for 6 hours, and when I blew my nose, it was clean. Having a 3 hp industrial dust collection system helps. The smaller 1 hp systems work fine as well, but again, the bigger the hood and the more enclosed the piece being sanded is, the more dust your collector will get, and the less you will sniff up. 

If you can, I would also recommend a 2 stage system. This is a cyclone which separates the big things like shavings, rags, chips (I got a light bulb once) from going through the impellers/fan blades of your collector. You will at least clog up the fan blades, and at worst bend or break them. You can make one, and I know of some that are lids to fit onto trash cans. Look up Oneida dust collector systems. They have some mini systems, but can give you a lot of ideas to build your own. 

There are a number of air scrubbers as we call them to filter the fines out of the air. After sanding, leave your shop over night, then come back in while still dark, and shine a flash light through the air. You can see a lot of fine spots of dust floating through the air. This is what the air scrubbers remove. 

If you don't have a dust filter, you become the dust filter.

robo hippy


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## Gordon T (5 Jan 2010)

Hello all,

another interesting dust discussion.If it helps anyone.... I am mostly a turner. I have a 4inch pipe system to my large extractor from my machines, this extractor has a large paper filter, cvleaned out each spring.

I also have a mocroclene above the lathe which runs for hours after I leave the shop. 

I also use a trend airmask ( when I remember ).

Finally I clean the shop almost every day with a tiny b q vac attached to an oneida dust deputy, which is superb I have to say.

Despite all of the above dust still manages to settle on some surfaces,
you have just got to keep trying, we only get one pair of lungs.

Inwarmer weather I also use a very large fan to blow dust out of the door when I am sanding.......How much more careful do you think I clould be

GT


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## wabbitpoo (6 Jan 2010)

I have persevered with the Trend but I find this model too top-heavy to be comfy for long periods.

Its encouraging that we all fail to eliminate all dust - maybe it time to stop trying.....


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## CHJ (6 Jan 2010)

wabbitpoo":2b3rsphl said:


> I have persevered with the Trend but I find this model too top-heavy to be comfy for long periods.


You're not alone, hence why I had to bite the bullet and spend half as much again for my current mask. It does have other benefits when using solvents as well, though it's best to make sure last nights curry was one you really enjoyed. :lol: 



wabbitpoo":2b3rsphl said:


> Its encouraging that we all fail to eliminate all dust - maybe it time to stop trying.....


 I don't think so on the trying front, although there is obviously a level of protection that is adequate for personal protection, the long term health of yourself and shop visitors, especially family members more regularly exposed to the shop or your clothing can only benefit from the best you can achieve. More than one wife has succumbed to lung/allergy problems from washing hubby's clothing.


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## Paul.J (6 Jan 2010)

*CHJ wrote*


> More than one wife has succumbed to lung/allergy problems from washing hubby's clothing


How many times you been married than Chas :lol: :lol:


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## Bodrighy (6 Jan 2010)

Paul.J":2zhpx5pj said:


> *CHJ wrote*
> 
> 
> > More than one wife has succumbed to lung/allergy problems from washing hubby's clothing
> ...



That would explain that harried look he often has :lol: 

Pete


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## miles_hot (6 Jan 2010)

Bodrighy":2gbx0iks said:


> Paul.J":2gbx0iks said:
> 
> 
> > *CHJ wrote*
> ...



And possibly the need for a full NBC / Hot Zone extraction system?

Miles


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## paul-c (6 Jan 2010)

CHJ you have convinced me that the way forward for me is to get a trend type airmask - but you have me now wondering which one to go for when a few threads ,as well as yourself , have mentioned the weight of the unit. :? 



> You're not alone, hence why I had to bite the bullet and spend half as much again for my current mask. It does have other benefits when using solvents as well, though it's best to make sure last nights curry was one you really enjoyed.



so the question now has to be what is your current mask :?: 
cheers paul


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## CHJ (6 Jan 2010)

paul-c":1zfccx0e said:


> ...........
> so the question now has to be what is your current mask :?:
> cheers paul



Details are here Paul


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## paul-c (6 Jan 2010)

thanks again CHJ


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