# New workshop build, with a difference!



## Cegidfa

Hello all, thanks for the warm welcome a while ago; I hope that the pics work ok.

The 'difference' is twofold. Firstly, any 'silly person' can build a pitched roof :wink: 
but it takes a complete numbskull to want a gambrel roof, having never built anything larger than a table before. Secondly, there will be no mention of SWMBO here as my wife Diane and I always work together on all projects.

As we never got to build our own house, the workshop build will be a modified house build, using similar techniques.
The pic below is a Sketchup representation of what we would like to achieve

http://img651.imageshack.us/i/2dshed.png/[img]

We have made a start and if I can get the hang of posting pictures I will post progress so far. Is a pic meant to show in preview? We think we have followed the instructions correctly! #-o 

Regards Dick.


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## mailee

It is just the spam trap. After about three postings it will go away. I am looking forward to seeing the plans and the build too. Workshop builds are always interesting.


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## Cegidfa

Hello Mailee, thanks for the reply. I have to date posted six times to get over the spam trap. Perhaps I have got the code on Imageshack wrong, will try again.







Lets see if this works? [-o< 

Regards Dick.


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## Cegidfa

\/ ccasion5: =D> Sorted.....Full steam ahead.


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## mailee

That's sorted it Dick. Whoo Hoo! that is one great looking workshop! I will watch this one with baited breath, looks like a great project to me.


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## houtslager

looking good, love to see the calcs for the roof timbers


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## Mcluma

That is indeed almost a house build


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## wobblycogs

Wow, you've got your work cut out there. I wish you the best of luck with it and I really hope you keep us updated on how the project is going. You say you've made a start, does that mean you've started digging holes or you've got a plan drawn up?

My partner and I work as a team too, she breaks things and I fix them  (to be fair her plumbing, especially the soldered parts, is much better than mine).


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## Cegidfa

Hello Houtslager, in reply..err..so would I :shock: I know this sounds mad but let me develop my thinking in the main body of text, and then hopefully someone will put me right. You are right to question the calcs, as I can find no technical references on how to size a gambrel construction. They can't be the same as pitched roof can they?

Hello Wobblycogs, yes the plan is drawn, but open to change. Holes have been dug and concrete poured. My wife is also better at plumbing joints and far better at rendering and bricklaying than I am. It's about patience I think.
The good thing is that she understands the underlying principles in all that we do, so can see flaws or a better way of doing things when I am stuck for an idea.

Regards, Dick.


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## softtop

Looks like it will be a great, light space to work in - lucky you!


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## houtslager

here's a link to more info -
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/26098-gambrel-roof-angles.html

http://www.blocklayer.com/Roof/GableEng.aspx

http://homeimprovement-6.info/531699-How-to-Build-a-Gambrel-Roof.html

hth,

karl


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## Cegidfa

Hello all,
Having got the hang of posting, I should give you some idea of the size of the beast and construction method.

It will be sized to not involve planning or building regs and more importantly, too big for us to manage the weight of roof parts, etc...so, in essence, it’s a pussy cat cat to some of you and a tiger to others. I claim total absolution from the dread ‘green envy’ of the latter, we’ve been there. 

The internal size will be 6.95 x 4.3 x 4 metres tall, 8m from the house and 3m from the dividing fence (steady the tigers).

As this is a faux house build, it will have a poured foundation, one row of 440 x 140 blocks and then four courses of engineering bricks up to the timber frame. 
It will have a cast concrete reinforced base on a DPM, to the level of the first course of bricks. Simpson strong ties will be set in the concrete and tied to the studs, rather than the sole plate, as we regularly have strong winds head on. The max recorded is approx, 70mph and a regular 25mph (as I write).

The stud walling will be constructed from pressure treated 100 x 47, with a double header, as the roof timbers do not always line up with the studs. This is recommended by the Trada timber frame construction manual. I am using this as a guide as it is ‘only a shed’ with pretensions of grandeur.

The roof timbers will be 150 x 47, bearing in mind that we will be using asphalt shingles rather than tile or slate.

The reason for having four brick courses is that we are very adjacent to the Severn; 8m at ‘high tide’. It rises by 7m from normal levels, approx. three times a year, so we will build flood guards for the doorways, just in case. :lol: 

If anyone can see any problems with the above, apart from building on a clay based flood plane :shock: , or at any time during the build, please advise.

Now for the drawing, by Diane of course.


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## TrimTheKing

Really looking forward to this build, looks really interesting.

Good luck. 

Cheers

Mark


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## jlawrence

I can't believe at that size you can avoid either planning or building regs.


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## Cegidfa

Hello softtop, I hope it will be a light space, and as to lucky, I have to build it yet, not to mention work out how the hell to build three roof lights that don’t leak. Has anyone out there achieved that, and if so how?

Hi Karl, thanks for the links, as it happens I have seen the top one before and unfortunately blocklayer only deals with gable and hipped, not gambrel. The bottom one was a bit sparse but it did reinforce my idea to use 150 for the roof timbers but it gave no idea about what span that would suit....ho hum thats life.

Hi Mark (Trim), I hope I can do your interest justice.

Hi jlawrence, I hope we haven’t missed anything,which aspect is it that you consider is over the top regarding size? As stated the internal size is less than 30sqm and the height won’t exceed 4m, have we missed something? :shock:

Regards...Dick.


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## Cegidfa

Hello all,
Having had the drawing and an overview, now for the bit we all enjoy, the WIP pics.
I hope that I include enough info for other beginners like myself, who might be a bit hesitant to start their build; (it both scares the excrement out of me, but also excites in equal measure) and not too much for you pros. If more detail/help is required please feel free to ask and I will do my best.

This is the area after two tonnes of gravel have been raked up and bagged.
We were then left with compacted gravel over rubble, in blue clay.






Next the profile boards were laid out and nails fitted to mark positions, not forgetting to measure across the diagonals to check for square. This took a bit of time to get right but is worth it. We had a daymare trying to bang in the posts, so they are not nice and square to each other, but still did the job.






Having run the string out, we spray marked the lines so that the string could be removed for the joy of pick axing the trench. It is definitely worth buying the pukka stretchy line for this, as far more tension can be achieved with it. This also applies to the bricklaying line. It makes the job far more accurate and, as a result, easier for us beginners. 






Metal pipe was banged in every 1200 to mark the depth for the footings concrete and then poured using ready mixed. There is not a problem wondering about which mix, as they always ask what it is for. Once poured, the string was replaced so that the corners could be marked out and lines snapped. These were reinforced with scratched lines made with a pointing trowel.











We were advised to use use wider blocks before going to bricks, to give more stability.
Strewth, 440 x 140 x 215 blocks are just about my limit when dropping them in a hole. Boo boo number one......make the trench wide enough to stand in, doh! That’s what comes of being a cheapskate. Trying to manoeuvre the blocks onto the mortar was ‘fun’ with a small f; dropping the blocks squeezed out the mortar. Diane to the rescue, she suggested using a clamp at the joining end to better control the lowering. It worked a treat and we got on a bit faster. That is to say, a fast snail, not a slow one. See the results below.






We also flaunched the sides of the blocking with concrete to both hold the blocks firm and aid water run off into the gravel faux french drain. Stop smirking you pros, we are just a pair of numptys with a bit of common sense :roll: :wink:






Well, that’s it for now, please let me know if the style is a bit too like a Haynes manual.
The aim is to help others, but with a bit of levity. Dibs-h is my hero, in that his build was informative and a good read; not to mention that he did it largely on his own. =D>

TTFN ....Dick


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## cmwatt

Interesting design, looks similar to one here: http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=970&PN=1 

Might be a worth a read through to help you get an idea of what's involved. I take it your build is a single storey? Looks like a good start so far, very tidy site so far as well... 

Craig.


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## Dibs-h

Looking good Dick. I envy you in that there is 2 of you doing it. Wifey don't do blockwork\digging. :roll: 

Looking at your drawings - my feeling is that with the wind loads in your neck of the woods - you may need collar ties on every "rafter", not every 2nd one. 

What's the pitch of the upper part of the roof? Most roof coverings have a minimum angle below which they aren't recommended. I've no idea what it is for asphalt shingles, but would be worth checking.

Your openings on the front are about as big as mine, as is your footprint, and the SE wanted the construction upping slightly to cope with the shear loads imposed at the upper plate. I know it's only a "shed" but would be worth getting some professional advice.

Even though I designed my Kingpost trusses\roof - I still had a SE run them thru for deflection\loads etc. and verify they'd hold up.

HIH

Dibs


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## softtop

Maybe I'm missing something but can't you use Velux windows in the roof? I've installed a few and they are easy to do and haven't leaked for me.

Didn't mean that you were lucky as in won the lottery - just I am envious of your design and space and especially the light! Everything I do I have to get permission from Conservation Officers (listed building) so my workshop is a dark hole...

I'll be watching this with interest.


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## Cegidfa

Hi Craig, thanks for the link. Whilst he made a sound job of the woodwork, I can hear Mike Garnham screaming....put the base up on brickwork to stop the rot. And as for the way the base was built...groundwork was not his forte. Yes, our build will be single storey and BTW I wish my mind was as tidy as the site.

Hi Dibs, the roof angles are, upper chord - 18.5°, lower chord - 60°. We just get away with the upper chord angle with respect to asphalt shingles. We did have a steeper upper angle
but it affects the balance between the two and looks disproportionate. It’s a tricky thing to get right when one is constrained to 4m in height. 

Having seen commercially built gambrel sheds (in the USA , on the web) they use 4 x 2 for the whole construction and no collar ties, just relying on the gussets. Also, our conservatory is 4m square and that has one 10mm rod in the middle, and double glazing weighs far more than our proposed roof. From the experience at our last house we know that building regs are way over the top, to almost CYA levels (I could bore you, but I won’t). I remember Mike Garnham remonstrating with a shed builder who put one length of wire in the middle to hold it together and even he only suggested two more of the same, albeit better applied.
I do appreciate your concern though and thanks for that. It may well be that we will have to stiffen the roof if things start to move, especially with a overhang at each end. Preferably before it flies away :shock: . 
As the build progresses I would appreciate your input if you see anything you think is a bit iffy. Nothing is fixed in stone, perhaps it should be round here 

Reading your build, I came to the impression that you must be built like Garth, especially when you mentioned removing a c/h boiler that weighed 100kg, on your own. Could you please post us some muscles as you must have some to spare :lol:

Hi softtop, we could use Velux or Fakro but that would set us back the best part of £700 for three windows :shock: which is beyond our budget....that’s almost a table saw :wink:

As it happens, we do think that we have won the lottery, having moved from a middle terrace in Bromley to a detached house in rural Powys; so much for downsizing in retirement. What a shame you couldn’t have the design you wanted because of where you live, hopefully there are other compensations to living in a Conservation Area.

Regards....Dick.


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## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":1gho9oel said:


> Hi Dibs, the roof angles are, upper chord - 18.5°, lower chord - 60°. We just get away with the upper chord angle with respect to asphalt shingles. We did have a steeper upper angle
> but it affects the balance between the two and looks disproportionate. It’s a tricky thing to get right when one is constrained to 4m in height.
> 
> Having seen commercially built gambrel sheds (in the USA , on the web) they use 4 x 2 for the whole construction and no collar ties, just relying on the gussets. Also, our conservatory is 4m square and that has one 10mm rod in the middle, and double glazing weighs far more than our proposed roof. From the experience at our last house we know that building regs are way over the top, to almost CYA levels (I could bore you, but I won’t). I remember Mike Garnham remonstrating with a shed builder who put one length of wire in the middle to hold it together and even he only suggested two more of the same, albeit better applied.
> I do appreciate your concern though and thanks for that. It may well be that we will have to stiffen the roof if things start to move, especially with a overhang at each end. Preferably before it flies away :shock: .
> As the build progresses I would appreciate your input if you see anything you think is a bit iffy. Nothing is fixed in stone, perhaps it should be round here
> 
> Reading your build, I came to the impression that you must be built like Garth, especially when you mentioned removing a c/h boiler that weighed 100kg, on your own. Could you please post us some muscles as you must have some to spare :lol:
> 
> What a shame you couldn’t have the design you wanted because of where you live, hopefully there are other compensations to living in a Conservation Area.
> 
> Regards....Dick.



Hi Dick,

I know what you mean about dis-proportionate looks, bit of a balancing act. :wink: Especially when cost enters the equation.

Thankfully the cords can be added later if you feel it isn't stiff enough. The loading on your roof will be minor compared to say Rosemary tiles or Concrete tiles, which allows for lighter construction. As for input - no probs there.

Boiler - thankfully that was before my accident prone stage. My head still hurts from the whack it got from a clamp on Sat. I'm so grateful there isn't a bruise - so no quizzical looks from colleagues and phrases like "Poor thing, must be hard putting up with domestic violence. Bet the wife whacked him with a pan!" in muted voices.

Conservation area - I live in one too, and I've had zero issues with the Planners and I do prefer it, no monstrosities (or poor taste) anytime soon.

Dibs


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## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Next phase, now showing at a Mac/PC near you.

The next job was to lower and level inside the blocks - more pick axing of embedded gravel/rubble to allow for sand blinding and 100mm of concrete.







Compacted and ready for sand blinding.






After the hernia inducing blocklaying fun, it is now over to the boss for the bricklaying section.We have never been very fast at this task and we have divined that it is down to firstly, not making the mortar sloppy enough and secondly, not getting an even bed of mortar. To this end, we invested in a Bricky...standby for howls of derision from pro brickies. Watching the videos for this product showed us that we were right about the too stiff mix. However, in practice, it still took a bit of courage to keep adding more water. Having completed the first row, we now feel more confident about it.

The Bricky, for us, has proved invaluable as we have laid bricks far more quickly than ever before. This is due to the uniform bed to place the bricks on.






First row finished






Prior to laying the sand and DPM we constructed a young roof to support tarpaulins to try and stop it becoming a paddling pool. Which incidentally was an abject failure and we ended up pumping it out with an Aquavac, a good piece of equipment. The battens were sized so that they could be reused as the external battens for the walls and not be wasted.






The sand was laid and rolled flat followed by the DPM laid over and joined in the middle with Visqueen joining strip, another good quality product not worth cheapskating on I feel.
Then the rebar....(sorry, too much USA interweb) reinforcing mesh had it’s little 50mm stand off feet wired on, what a nice job to do...not. And it gets heavy with all those feet on. We needed three rows so they had to be overlapped so that they could be wired together to make a uniform whole. That made them very thick at multiple joins, so we angle ground the third overlaps off to reduce the bulk. See the finished job below.






We were able to borrow a tamping bar and Bull Buffer from a new local friend, thanks Hubert. Wait for a clear forecast and go for it; we got lucky and Evans Above..the god of rain in Wales was offered Bara Brith as appeasement. (Had we been in Yorkshire it would have been Earnshore to whom parkin is offered, don’t laugh, it worked ‘mostly’ when we camped there for many years).
And so to the disaster that was the slab cast. We had finally bitten off more than we could chew. There were only the two of us and the lorry driver..big mistake. It needs three strong men, and we weren’t them. The driver gave a hand, for which we were very grateful; unfortunately we didn’t get the concrete quite down to the DPM for some reason, it looked ok. We then compounded the problem by putting some extra concrete in the big barrow(220ltrs) ‘just in case’. Having given the driver a good drink for digging us out of the ordure, we waved him off and went back for a final pass with the tamper. The small extra height soon mounted up and spilled over the edges, so we were now wading in it. At this point Evens Above decided, mistakenly, that we required more Sun and turned the tap full on. He evidently didn’t know that concrete has to cure, not set/dry.






We had to wade in and remove concrete as there was so much that the bar refused to move any more, thus increasing the puddle round the edge. At this point we decided that we had to clear the decks before we became permanent fixtures. Then back to tamping by which time we were ‘dead men walking’ having run out of steam some time before. Having levelled it quite well and having installed the Simpson Strong Ties, we stopped for lunch before we fell face down in it. Thanks to Evans contribution, not to mention how long this palaver took, by the time we got back it was too late to buff it properly, doh! The finished top is satisfactory but not to the standard we hoped to achieve i.e smooth as a baby’s bum. Hey ho..but we learned a lot in a very short time.






You are now up to date with the project so far. We are now waiting for Evens to get his act together and give us some dryness so we can carry on bricking.

Regards...Dick.


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## Dibs-h

Dick

Bit late - but what's the overlap of the mesh? I was told to overlap a min of 0.5m, which is more than the 1 square, which is what yours looks like. Come to think of it as your base is just a floor and not an integral part of the foundations you should be ok.

We had our concrete pumped and spread - worth every bit of the £250 I paid. With me and a mate just tamping\smoothing it. Having a vibrating poker certainly helps. Having said that - it was a hot day when the raft was done and later that evening, the inside thigh muscles in both legs cramped - bloody painful I can tell you!

I have to salute you and the Mrs for doing the work - there's many a person who wouldn't do it.

I would say tho - having kit makes it so much easier. For the timber framing - get an impact driver and 3" screws in the 1000's. Easy to adjust if you aren't happy with it, safer than a nailgun and quicker than nailing by hand (and easier on the thumbs).

Dibs


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## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

Thanks for the concern and advice. Trying to find info on the overlap was limited to just one, the ’paving expert.com’, a very useful site. They suggested 350mm which is what we did. By the time it had been wired together it was pretty stiff; it withstood my mighty 82kg jumping on it. Ok, at that weight, I was just as likely to slip through the squares, but I have a lot turned over at the bottom 

As to having the right kit, we recently bought a twin set of Makita lion drill drivers, one of which is an impact driver, strewth, they are fast, and take a bit of getting used to, but great tools. I totally agree about using screws. I was going to use 100mm x 6mm thus giving a good 50mm hold. Some time back I helped my next door neighbour roof an 80 ft barn with galvanised sheet, banging nails directly through. By the end of the day I couldn’t lift the hammer. 

Today has been a very dangerous day. We went to the Summer show at Graham’s Machinery in Chester. Boy, I know how to give a girl a good time. They made us an offer on a bandsaw and tablesaw; a total saving of £150...result. Having paid for the new toys I suggested to the sales assistant that he may need to get the first aider, as we were about to look at the Festool stand. Looking was a bad move. It’s great kit and there is an upcoming offer on the track saw where they ‘throw in’ two 1400mm tracks and joiners. It looks like I might be getting an early Christmas present as we will have a lot of large board cutting to do, both during ‘the build’ and after (not one storage cupboard in the house, as yet). Perhaps I should just go and lay down in a dark room till the madness passes.

This now means that we will have to rearrange the furniture in the living room to accommodate the new kit, as well as the planer thicknesser and dust extractor that are already there :roll: Surely everyone’s wife allows that ....don’t they? :wink: After all they have only been there a year.

Back to bricking tomorrow.....Dick.


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## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":213vm6st said:


> Hi Dibs,
> 
> Thanks for the concern and advice. Trying to find info on the overlap was limited to just one, the ’paving expert.com’, a very useful site. They suggested 350mm which is what we did. By the time it had been wired together it was pretty stiff; it withstood my mighty 82kg jumping on it. Ok, at that weight, I was just as likely to slip through the squares, but I have a lot turned over at the bottom
> 
> As to having the right kit, we recently bought a twin set of Makita lion drill drivers, one of which is an impact driver, strewth, they are fast, and take a bit of getting used to, but great tools. I totally agree about using screws. I was going to use 100mm x 6mm thus giving a good 50mm hold. Some time back I helped my next door neighbour roof an 80 ft barn with galvanised sheet, banging nails directly through. By the end of the day I couldn’t lift the hammer.
> 
> Today has been a very dangerous day. We went to the Summer show at Graham’s Machinery in Chester. Boy, I know how to give a girl a good time. They made us an offer on a bandsaw and tablesaw; a total saving of £150...result. Having paid for the new toys I suggested to the sales assistant that he may need to get the first aider, as we were about to look at the Festool stand. Looking was a bad move. It’s great kit and there is an upcoming offer on the track saw where they ‘throw in’ two 1400mm tracks and joiners. It looks like I might be getting an early Christmas present as we will have a lot of large board cutting to do, both during ‘the build’ and after (not one storage cupboard in the house, as yet). Perhaps I should just go and lay down in a dark room till the madness passes.
> 
> This now means that we will have to rearrange the furniture in the living room to accommodate the new kit, as well as the planer thicknesser and dust extractor that are already there :roll: Surely everyone’s wife allows that ....don’t they? :wink: After all they have only been there a year.
> 
> Back to bricking tomorrow.....Dick.



Blimey been an expensive day!

As for the living room - I know what you mean - but in my case it's all over the house & our house ain't small. :wink:

Graham's do a reasonable price on Festool gear, but my local dealer beat them by throwing more extra's in. I'd check out the local Festool dealer tho.

Screws - 3" Nbr 10's are more than up to the job, especially as in almost all cases you'll be "toe nailing". I feel 4" screws might just be a waste of money. Shop around as well. 

I use a local firm - I'll confirm the price for you in the morning, but I buy them by the case - i.e. an outer, which must have a x thousand in there. Can't remember how many - but it was massively cheaper than say 2k from Screwfix.

As for bits - Dewalt\Makita tubs are cheap as chips. Warning - when using an impact driver I would always wear safety specs - at some point, it will shear the end of the bit and you really don't need that flying off.

Dibs


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## flying haggis

Dibs-h":2xq4vdsj said:


> Cegidfa":2xq4vdsj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Dibs,
> 
> Thanks for the concern and advice. Trying to find info on the overlap was limited to just one, the ’paving expert.com’, a very useful site. They suggested 350mm which is what we did. By the time it had been wired together it was pretty stiff; it withstood my mighty 82kg jumping on it. Ok, at that weight, I was just as likely to slip through the squares, but I have a lot turned over at the bottom
> 
> As to having the right kit, we recently bought a twin set of Makita lion drill drivers, one of which is an impact driver, strewth, they are fast, and take a bit of getting used to, but great tools. I totally agree about using screws. I was going to use 100mm x 6mm thus giving a good 50mm hold. Some time back I helped my next door neighbour roof an 80 ft barn with galvanised sheet, banging nails directly through. By the end of the day I couldn’t lift the hammer.
> 
> Today has been a very dangerous day. We went to the Summer show at Graham’s Machinery in Chester. Boy, I know how to give a girl a good time. They made us an offer on a bandsaw and tablesaw; a total saving of £150...result. Having paid for the new toys I suggested to the sales assistant that he may need to get the first aider, as we were about to look at the Festool stand. Looking was a bad move. It’s great kit and there is an upcoming offer on the track saw where they ‘throw in’ two 1400mm tracks and joiners. It looks like I might be getting an early Christmas present as we will have a lot of large board cutting to do, both during ‘the build’ and after (not one storage cupboard in the house, as yet). Perhaps I should just go and lay down in a dark room till the madness passes.
> 
> This now means that we will have to rearrange the furniture in the living room to accommodate the new kit, as well as the planer thicknesser and dust extractor that are already there :roll: Surely everyone’s wife allows that ....don’t they? :wink: After all they have only been there a year.
> 
> Back to bricking tomorrow.....Dick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blimey been an expensive day!
> 
> As for the living room - I know what you mean - but in my case it's all over the house & our house ain't small. :wink:
> 
> Graham's do a reasonable price on Festool gear, but my local dealer beat them by throwing more extra's in. I'd check out the local Festool dealer tho.
> 
> Screws - 3" Nbr 10's are more than up to the job, especially as in almost all cases you'll be "toe nailing". I feel 4" screws might just be a waste of money. Shop around as well.
> 
> I use a local firm - I'll confirm the price for you in the morning, but I buy them by the case - i.e. an outer, which must have a x thousand in there. Can't remember how many - but it was massively cheaper than say 2k from Screwfix.
> 
> As for bits - Dewalt\Makita tubs are cheap as chips. Warning - when using an impact driver I would always wear safety specs - at some point, it will shear the end of the bit and you really don't need that flying off.
> 
> Dibs
Click to expand...


makita tubs of screwdriver bits available on e-bay like these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MAKITA-P-49971-10 ... 4152da0211


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## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs, Grahams is my nearest dealer; the joys of rural living. So who is your local dealer and does he deliver? As it happens, the frame will be screwed directly from the top and bottom plates, hence the 100mm screws. Why swing one granny when I can swing two (if you’re familiar with the phrase).

I notice that the Screwfix tubs of 2500 only go up to 50mm in length? Will do some research.
Thanks for warning about shattering the bits. As it happens, when we bought the gear, the salesman let us try out the impact driver as I hadn’t used one before. He also warned us about the problems associated as well and advised buying the titanium bits which might lessen the chance of splitting, and would be longer lasting, given the force. 

Hello flying haggis, thanks for your interest and the link. Beware, these particular bits would fall out of an impact driver, as they require the 50mm long bits with the indent for the retaining mechanism. Guess how I found out :roll: 
This is the correct type, possibly available cheaper elsewhere. 

http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.ph ... sn/P-65779

Thanks for the help so far.......Dick.


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## Cegidfa

Hello people,
As it’s raining again, thanks Evans Above, I thought it an opportunity to give the costings so far. 

Footings - 1cu/m	£110.03
Slab - 3.5cu/m	£392.41
Blocks x 56	£62.51
Bricks x 452 (1pallet)	£95.6
DPM - 4m x 25m	£35.25
Reinforcing Mesh x 5 sheets	£21.80
Mesh supports x 100	£70.50
Simpson straps x 12 £38.78
Building sand - 2 bulk bags	£63.45
Cement - 10 bags	£37.52
Sundries - Brickie/addmix/etc	£147.57

An eye watering...£1075.42, just to get to four courses of brick above the ground. 
This shed building lark isn’t for the faint hearted, or the shallow walleted. There is no way that I could have afforded this when I had a young family....that is, from birth to leaving home/uni. This was brought home when we went to Grahams show, I was the youngest white haired old git there  
Rain is forecast for tomorrow as well, so, it will be at least Monday before we can start again on the brickwork :x Will I ever get to the wood stage?

Regards....Dick


----------



## Mattty

Cegidfa":334m0fr9 said:


> Beware, these particular bits would fall out of an impact driver, as they require the 50mm long bits with the indent for the retaining mechanism. Guess how I found out :roll:
> This is the correct type, possibly available cheaper elsewhere.
> 
> http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.ph ... sn/P-65779
> 
> Thanks for the help so far.......Dick.



Dick,
You can just put a standard bit holder in the impact driver then you dont need the long bits. Most of them have the indent you refer too.
Personally i wouldnt go to the expence of using titanium bits either. Just buy a tub of decent pozi bits like the makita or dewalt ones and be prepared to replace it every so often. HTH


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi matty,and flying haggis. I think that the weather must have rusted what was left of what passes for my brain. I have several magnetic bit holders; so why didn't I think of that? Definitely a d'oh moment. Thanks for reminding me of the blindingly obvious, and saving me a few pennies too. Mind you, the 'loose' ordinary bit in an impact driver has got me out of trouble when standard drill drivers were too big. I have even used the impact driver to drill holes in tight spaces....with very careful trigger control I might add.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Dick

I have a few local dealers - PM me what you are after and I'll get you a price and see what they'll throw in. They all send stuff out by courier so getting it to you isn't a problem.

To give you an idea - I bought 

- A domino (full set)
- systainer full of Doms (including the full set of cutters)
- 2 x 1400 rails (for my Ts55)

Paid about list for them - but they threw in the following,

- the big padded bag for the rails & accessories
- 2 connectors for the rails
- 2 clamps.

Probably in the region of £175 worth of extras. So can't complain.

As Matty has said - use a std mag bit holder and Dewalt\Makita bits - that's what I use, bits last a while and always keep a few in the pocket.

I think you've done well getting all that for £1k - just to slab level mine was almost twice that - but I did have a ton of steel and almost 15m3 of C35 and 2 lots of pump hire. But then again my foundations weren't your average run of the mill ones. :wink: 3" screws - I pay arouund £20/thousand - so aim for something along those lines.

HIH

Dibs

p.s. When it comes to stud work - pay attention to which way the crowns are - otherwise fitting ply or plaster boards them will be a pain! :wink:


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi dibs, Thanks for the offer, apparently, there will be a festool deal coming soon where they throw in two 1400 rails. So, if you don’t mind, I will take up your kind offer when it is running. You certainly did very well with yours. 
I still can’t believe that I forgot about using the mag bit holder in the impact driver, it’s a lot cheaper on bits.
Might I ask where you get your screws from, as I can’t find any at that sort of price?

Thanks for the studwork tip; I had seen somewhere on the web about this, they suggested alternating the crowns in/out to average the end result. Without this, one could end up with a concave/convex wall...nice. Isn’t it grand to be able to buy such good quality timber?
Apparently this even happens in America these days, where you would think they would have the best.

Whilst I am aware of some of the tips, I won’t know them all, so don’t lose faith, they are appreciated.

Regards, Dick.


----------



## Mattty

Dick,
I use boat loads of these for general joinery and they are very good. Not as flashy as reisser or wurth but a 1/4 of the cost.
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+ ... /d90/sd760


----------



## Dibs-h

Mattty":1tinaxau said:


> Dick,
> I use boat loads of these for general joinery and they are very good. Not as flashy as reisser or wurth but a 1/4 of the cost.
> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+ ... /d90/sd760



http://www.screwsline.co.uk/twin_thread ... ws_csk.php

My local outfit charges £19+vat per thousand for Nbr 10x3" - these lot are even cheaper and even with delivery added (which is at cost) still cheaper for 1k screws. 1 thousand screws don't last as long as you think! :wink:

HIH

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi matty and dibs, many thanks for the above links, they are certainly good prices, which I will be making use of soon.
I find it 'interesting' when searching for info on the web. It is so dependent on the wording used. It also seems dependent on the vehicle; I use firefox but Diane uses safari. We get quite different results. And there was me thinking that metadata was metadata?

The dwarf wall build (a massive four courses) is moving along, but slowly, due partly to the weather, and our inability to lay bricks quickly.....two sides done to date.

Regards..Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello all,

We have finally finished the dwarf wall that supports the workshop.
Between inclement weather and our slow brick laying, it has taken far too long.
But, measuring the diagonals, there is only 4mm difference. In my book, that’s a result.
The trouble now is that we have a paddling pool. Anyone fancy the new Olympic sport of underwater frame construction? :lol:

We have just worked out that we need just short of 5000 screws for this build. 
No wonder dibs and matty kindly offered links to cheap suppliers, instead of screwfix. They have saved me a fair amount of money. Thanks for that.






The sharp eyed amongst you might have noticed a major concession to H & S, in that we have taped corks to the tops of the steel ties. One near miss as I bent down was enough.

In true Canute style we have attempted to keep out the worst of the weather, see pic below. At least it will limit the time taken using the aquavac; providing that it doesn’t turn into a spinnaker and take off down the drive that is.






In true project management style, the bandsaw and table saw turn up tomorrow. 
Just ready to reside in the front room...along with the planer/thicknesser and DX 5000 extractor. I am beginning to think that it would be easier to make the workshop the living room and leave all the gear where it is. Just think, no going outside in the wet to get to the workshop!

Now for the good bit, ordering loads of warped and twisted timber. Doesn’t sound good but that is the reality these days....even in the USA it seems. Never mind, it will probably be so wet that it won’t be warped. Me cynical, never.

Onwards and upwards.....to infinity and be......... I think my medication is wearing off.

Regards...Dick..


----------



## wobblycogs

I often stick corks to the top of garden canes for exactly the same reason you've corked the steel ties but it just occurred to me that that with something like the ties a quicker solution might be to just drop old squash or fizzy drinks bottles over the top. I don't think they would blow away and there would be less fiddly to fit and take off.

Great build, I'm amazed how quickly you are getting it done. It seems to take me ages to do stuff like this, I console myself with the fact that I'm normally happy with the end result.


----------



## Dibs-h

Dick

Nice to see it coming along! Yeah - you kinda loose track as to how many screws you end up using.

I'm putting up the inner stud walls on mine - and at the end , before I fit the noggins, if I want to make an adjustment, dead easy. Somehow don't think it would be the case with nails. :wink:

I use a local timber yard for all my timber and I have to say that all the regularised 4"x2" I've bought, hardly had a twist in them, but then I load it myself and therefore select the pieces. Almost all of mine is C24 and I'm paying around £1.40/m which is probably reasonable, but have yet to bin a piece because it was so warped I could use it.

The one thing I've leaned when collecting lumber & it seems to apply in the sheds too - don't pick pieces that are on the outside of the bundle. These will have differentially dried and as such if they haven't bowed\twisted they will a day after you get them home! :wink:

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello wobbly cogs, thats a good idea, although they would be a ‘cut to fit’ at the neck, as the ties are 38mm wide. Milk bottles could be good too, as we don’t have much in the way of squash. Pity wine bottles have such narrow necks; for some reason we seem to have a lot to choose from :smile: hence the use of corks, which we save for starting the fire in winter. Waste not, want not.....ok...I'm a mean sod.
Don’t be too amazed at the speed, we have all day, every day after all. However, two or more weeks of genuflection in gravel is more than enough fun....with a small f, even with knee pads.

Hi dibs, glad to hear that your build is moving on, are we going to see some more pics soon, or is there not sufficient difference to be worth it yet? It is a bit of a faf to get them to the forum. 
I take it that you have the means to bring large quantities of timber home, as you can select it yourself? We don’t have the luxury of free choice round here, we get what we get.
Although I could complain if it was too bad, as the people round here are very pleasant and helpful. Not like Champion Timber in Bromley. Known for ever as Champi imber, as some letters were missing from the lorry.
To be fair, all of the timber that I have bought to date, has been ok. But I always joke and ask for ‘straight’ timber, not the B & Q stuff. It seems to work. Our 4 x 2 easy edge and treated(slightly larger than CLS) is the same price as yours, and because I have opened an account at both suppliers, deliveries are free. 

It has just started raining and the prospect is for rain until Saturday, so we will be unloading the new toys, and the first lot of wood in the rain......deep joy.

TTFN...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":22v4lsnt said:


> Hi dibs, glad to hear that your build is moving on, are we going to see some more pics soon, or is there not sufficient difference to be worth it yet? It is a bit of a faf to get them to the forum.
> I take it that you have the means to bring large quantities of timber home, as you can select it yourself? We don’t have the luxury of free choice round here, we get what we get.
> Although I could complain if it was too bad, as the people round here are very pleasant and helpful. Not like Champion Timber in Bromley. Known for ever as Champi imber, as some letters were missing from the lorry.
> To be fair, all of the timber that I have bought to date, has been ok. But I always joke and ask for ‘straight’ timber, not the B & Q stuff. It seems to work. Our 4 x 2 easy edge and treated(slightly larger than CLS) is the same price as yours, and because I have opened an account at both suppliers, deliveries are free.
> 
> It has just started raining and the prospect is for rain until Saturday, so we will be unloading the new toys, and the first lot of wood in the rain......deep joy.
> 
> TTFN...Dick.



Will probably post some piccies tomorrow - there's that much stuff in there and on one gable wall the studs are almost 4m long, so a bit of faffing about moving them about. Just so looking forward to getting the batt insulation in, get some space back.

The yard is about 1mile away, I usually stick the roof bars on the estate and can comfortably get 20 lengths of 4"x2" on there @ 3m each. I can leave the yard, get home, unload and be back there in 15 mins. With the build so far, it's been 4 runs in total to get all the rafters and studs. Probably 1 more run to go.

Roof bars are awesome - lifesaver. Can get stuff when I want and don't have to wait in for a delivery.

Dibs


----------



## xy mosian

Cegidfa, butting in, sorry. How about drinks cans, they are probably soft enough to 'help' on to the ties with a suitable lump timber.
xy


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## Cegidfa

Hi xy,
Another good idea, however, having worked in the bottling and canning industry, I have doubts whether a good clump would work. Our apprentices used to have competitions as to who could condense cans into themselves with a judicious stamp of the foot. Maybe a gentle hacksawing with a loose blade through the ring pull? Another side effect of working in the drinks industry....I don't drink fizzy stuff, so no cans available...ho hum. You should see what coke does to the filling/seaming machine. :shock:

Regards....Dick.


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## xy mosian

Thanks, I was thinking the Steel ties were rebar, which could be driven through the drinking hole of a tinny. Sorry, must read properly.
Coke? Strange what we put into ourselves isn't it, or rather what we let others con us into putting into ourselves.
xy


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## JFC

The roof is easier than a cut and fix pitched roof . Probably the most simple roof there is . Dont be scared about a roof , they are easy compared to other stuff .


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello folks,

We got lucky, the toys were delivered and it didn’t rain  The only downside was that Diane and I had to lift the T/S out of the box to check that we had all the parts...110kg out and back again...she’s a tough girl. And then 80kg for the B/S (that motor has the loudest centrifugal switch that I have ever heard, and I have heard a few). Then lay down in a dark room waiting for our bodies to recover. 
Next day, trip out to get DPC and some goop to hold it down temporarily, plus some ‘does what it says on the tin’ for the cut ends....
Fit said DPC with afore mentioned goop...day over.
Hmm..ah forgot, trip to local (ish) tip with a bulging car, and call in to collect a doggy bag of medicine from the quacks. The joy of living in Wales, it’s all free. It used to be a small fortune in Bromley. 

Next day..Wood delivery....64 lengths of 4 x 2, just over a tonne to sticker up in the vain hope of it staying straight. There were some bananas in both planes, but not too bad. Then the joy of cutting the grass before it rains...again...That’s about an hour and a half of ‘fun’ with three mowers. 
Wednesday....It starts in earnest. It took most of the day to fit the sole plates between showers. Oh the joy of doing a half lap joint in wood that is more like soft marg. Thank goodness for the battery c/saw with a thin kerf. We used Rapier screws, straight into the brickwork for fixing. Strewth, those engineering bricks are hard. I also joined across the corners with the same screws to bind it all together. Thursday...erection time :shock: .... not in front of the sheep and buffalo please.

More costings.

Timber....£410
Screws...£93
Running total £1601







Regards...Dick.


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## Cegidfa

Hi Jason,
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Now that the build has started, the nervousness has evaporated. it was down to never having done anything of this scale before.
As a matter of interest, why would you consider a gambrel roof with more angle cuts easier than a standard pitched roof with gable end? Were you thinking of the birdsmouth cut?

Dick.


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## Mcluma

Looks good

but i would have bought spax

If i had to do 5000 screws :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 

this weekend i will do about 1000 screws, but only with an impact driver (AN ABSOLUTE MUST _DO NOT START WITH OUT ONE)

go back and get spax. i tell YOU GET SPAX


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## Cegidfa

Hi Mcluma,
Do you work for Spax by any chance :wink: ?
We recognize that they will be superior screws, but they are at least three times the price. Instead of £90 they would be £270 min.
The other problem is that (a) we have the screws already and, (b) they are in use. No breakages so far, and I do double granny fixings....if you get my drift. Yes, we do have an impact driver which doesn't take any prisoners; a great piece of kit - Makita. Thanks for the advice anyway.

Regards...Dick.


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## Eric The Viking

Mcluma":gfe8uu0k said:


> Looks good... go back and get spax. i tell YOU GET SPAX



What 'ee said, except get Reisser.

I've actually given larger-sized Spax screws away in the past as they're horrible. 

Reisser are staggeringly pricey, but they hardly ever 'misfire' and fix well usually without splitting. Came into their own when framing and battening* up on the roof, and for fixing plywood (no countersink needed). I get longer battery life from the driver, compared to 'twin-quick' etc.

I agree with you, mostly, about TS fixings. Generally they're pretty good value, but occasionally you do get a duff batch. I find their s/s screws are not very robust (I usually run a toughened screw through first, obviously, and lubricate them), and their more recent maker of double-start countersunk BZP makes em blunt! I've also had quite a lot of pozis from them with loose fitting heads on the driver, which is a complete PITA.

Cheers,

E.

*Vertical hanging tiles, etc. Roofing nails for normal roofing!


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## Cegidfa

Hi Mcluma and Eric the Viking,

Is it impact drivers at dawn then :shock: 

Or is it ...In the blue corner, 'Spax Mcluma vs Eric Riesser in the red' :roll:

Regards...Dick.


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## Eric The Viking

Cegidfa":z97ru42a said:


> Hi Mcluma and Eric the Viking,
> 
> Is it impact drivers at dawn then :shock:
> 
> Or is it ...In the blue corner, 'Spax Mcluma vs Eric Riesser in the red' :roll:



Heck no: I like Reisser screws, but I can't usually afford them!

In the raving-loony-price bracket, we had the garage roof redone last Thursday. They've done a brilliant job - no more rusting tools, I hope!

They screwed through the new metal sheets, through the old sloping roof, into the folded steel joists, using self-cutting, self-tapping hex-headed screws. These things are serious! To demonstrate, the foreman took one and went straight through an old boat trailer chassis I have outside (nominally about 1/8" steel). I think they're about 75p each in small quantities, but boy do they work well.


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## flying haggis

Those roofing fixing are indeed serious, I have used them in the past and they save a lot of pre drilling. In largeish quantitys they are not that dear

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/250-TEK-SCREW-CLA ... 2ea8ad29e2


----------



## Eric The Viking

flying haggis":t4ffuu9j said:


> Those roofing fixing are indeed serious, I have used them in the past and they save a lot of pre drilling. In largeish quantitys they are not that dear
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/250-TEK-SCREW-CLA ... 2ea8ad29e2



Yup, those are the beasties:






The ones they used here were quite a bit longer. They have snap on plastic heads too. I'm seriously impressed with them, but time will tell regarding durability.


----------



## flying haggis

The same roofing screws have been holding the metal cladding on the warehouse where I work for the last 10+ years so I dont think durability is an issue. And if you look at any modern steel clad building that is the type of screw that holds the sheeting on. Also opposite to where I work a new building has just gone up and the roofing sheets were two sheets of steel with at least 100mm of kingspan type insulation glued in between and the roofers fixed them with long roofing screws by screwing straight through the roof into the metal purlins.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

At last.....the stud walls are up. It took three days to cut, fabricate, and erect the pippers; boy, are they heavy, in spite of splitting the long wall into three parts and the side walls into two.
At the moment, it’s looking rather large, but I know that as the roof goes on it will probably ‘shrink’ a bit. Space is tricky stuff.
Interestingly, the only pozi bit to shatter was the alleged high tech titanium coated one that fitted directly into the impact driver. Fortunately, none of the Toolstation screws have sheared yet, although a small number were bent.The bit to head fit was far better than those from screwfix.






In the pic below, you see my high tech workstation, that is to say my thirty year old Delta sliding compound saw and equally old B & D Workmate. I don’t think that they owe me anything after all that time....boy have they had some use. And the saw is still in excellent condition. Mind you it has spent its life indoors...err, the dining room was my workshop. :shock: :shock:






Today we cut the first roof section. How the hell we will lift it is yet to be worked out.
Firstly, the pattern was drawn on the concrete floor in woodworker’s pencil, it looked enormous. Then with good old Sketchup, the cut angles were worked out, and the length of each chord measured. We did a few trial cuts of the angles to see if they fitted the lines, and whether the saw markings were reasonably accurate, as we don’t have an angle checker. I had some doubts about being able to set the angles repeatedly, but it seems to work.
Fortunately, every piece of the roof has a twenty degree angle, so we will cut each length of timber in half at that angle, and then do all the apex angles and then the feet. 






You may have noticed that the timber looks rather wet, I think, having come direct from the treatment tank....great. This is the reason that we haven't fitted the binder yet, as that load was saturated. So much for the treatment only penetrating approx. 6mm. Fingers crossed for sun, sun and more sun. Or at the very least, no rain :roll: 

That's all for now folks....Dick.


----------



## xy mosian

That workshop looks good even now. Keep up the good work both of you.

xy


----------



## Mcluma

Looks good ,and we both have worked hard over the weekend

I put up 32meters of fencing and you did the studwork

Just one small note, double up the header on top, as you will have a pretty high load on the wall

Good luck


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi xy and McLuma,

Thanks for the encouraging words, they are appreciated.
30m of fencing....that's a lot of hole digging and concreting/back ramming.
With respect to information, why do we always find the best way to do things after the event. We concreted our fencing many years ago, and the concrete binds to the wood, as we found later when they had rotted..only in the socket.
The technique is to put a very slight taper on the socket end, wrap a plastic bag round it, or film if you have it, and then pour the concrete. The plastic stops the binding and the posts can be lifted out easily because of the taper.. I hope this may be of use to someone out there. I wish I had known.

With respect to the roof, the loading, including trusses, sheathing and tiles is 1717kg. Whether this needs a top plate and a binder,I don't know. I do know that because of the height restriction, an extra 47mm changes the upper roof angle to less than the tile tolerance, and if I lower the doorway/wall height, I will have to duck to go through. welcome to the world of Gambrel geometry.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

so any work going on???

to double up the headerplate will only add another 5cm to it, but will add a lot more strenght

about the posts,

the trick is to ensure there is a plastic pipe in the botom of the hole, so the pole is on top of that, and make sure the bottom part of the posts are ruberrished

keep the pictures coming


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi McLuma,

I must be a founder member of Densa, your description of fitting posts eludes me. Would you mind having another shot at describing the process please. And what are ‘ruberrished’ posts?

The master draftsperson, aka Diane, tried leaving the roof height and top angle unchanged and adjusting the lower chord to incorporate a double header. It can be done without compromising the aesthetic look and we will do it if we don’t think it is stiff enough after we have finished fitting the first one all round. It is surprising how a small change can affect the look of a Gambrel roof.
With 96 ply plates to make for the roof trusses, it will be a while before you see more progress. What a tedious job ](*,) .

We also decided to set up the new bandsaw to speed the cutting of the ply and the bottom birdsmouth cuts. Only to find that the body of the saw has been welded at less than 90º ....do’h.
I didn’t think that the Chinese suffered from TFI Friday syndrome? As it took four of us to get it safely onto its stand, I don’t think that it will be sent back; unless they provide two strong men to take it apart and replace it. As I have one leg shorter than the other due to an old ‘war wound’, we will match, and it will look straight as I stand at the user position :wink:

Weather permitting, we will finish the first header tomorrow, and decide if we need a binder.
If wet, back on the bandsaw.....in the conservatory, of course :smile:

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Dick 

You really should double up the header over the doorway. Now if headroom is an issue - then you'll have to double it over the top. I would also double up the studs on the sides of the doorway.

On the RH window, the header appears doubled, but the RH stud appears single, whereas the LH one appears doubled.

WRT to the stud work in general - If you are lining with Ply\Osb - you will need to have 3 lots of noggins, effectively dividing the stud into 4 equally sized sections.

The Building Inspector wanted mine that way - so I said I'd consult my tame SE, who confirmed that for a timber load bearing wall, that's what he wants.

My timber inner stud is now load bearing by virtue of being fitted between the pole plate (aka wallplate) and the floor. So 3 rows of noggins! 

HIH

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs, and McLuma....and everyone else.

If you read back on page four, I said that the reason we hadn’t fitted the binder yet was because the timber arrived straight from the treatment tank, and needed to dry out. TRADA recommend not more that 20% MC when sealing in faces and cladding, as the excess moisture can’t escape. We have now duly fitted the binder and the reinforcing on the doorways; but as always, many thanks for the concern, it really is appreciated. 

See below the temporary bracing holding the beast square. Although an A frame is obviously strong, to see the effect first hand is amazing.They are only 50 x 25 roofing laths.







Next the door reinforcing and the temporary roof brace.






And playtime, aka the roof truss template.






Dibs, the reason for the double stud at the window openings is because we made the front and back walls in three sections, and that’s where they join.

As to noggings. we will have to differ. Firstly TRADA say that they are not required for structural porpoises, only for facilitating plasterboard laid horizontally or for later fixings to the walls - as in kitchen cabinets, etc. I have read recently about tests carried out at The University of Southern Queensland Faculty of Engineering and Surveying where they were load testing with and without noggings for cyclone proofing. They found no difference in the racking or compression stiffness of the wall. This is the link to the pdf (maybe your SE would be interested).

http:/eprints.usq.edu.au5157/1Karaunasena_Leitch_ACMSM20_AV.pdf (I have no idea how to make this a live link)

Also, the ‘murricans’ never use them structurally, and they are far more experienced at timber frame than us Brits. I think some Building Inspectors could do with going on a TRADA course to bring them up to date with ‘Modern Methods of Construction’. On one shed build I read about, the BI didn’t even know what a Gambrel roof was and the householder had to take pictures in...he wouldn’t even look it up on the web.
The other source of info on this subject (American again) has been testing reduced stud usage which would probably raise the hairs on the neck of your SE; no cripples under the window or double studs at the window sides :shock: This is on non load bearing walls though. This is referred to as ‘Advanced Framing Techniques’.

It is now full steam ahead making the roof trusses, which is a tedious process, due to the number of individual parts required. For each truss (15 in total) there are 8 angle cuts at three different angles and in addition there are 6 ply gussets required. Suddenly a standard pitched roof is beginning to look more attractive :smile: 

That’s it for now, nose to the chopsaw. The next photo will be of me face down in front of it, a gibbering wreck.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Bkn

I really love those American barn style roofs. Can't wait to see this finished and it looks as though it's coming along really well


----------



## Dibs-h

Dick

Sorry must have missed the blinder bit. Looking good.

Interesting article - forwarded onto my SE and I'll be catching up later with him to see what he thinks.

I see what you are saying wrt TRADA - however for a non-standard construction, which is what mine is - BC want someone to sign that the construction will work and with that in mind SE's get what they want. Although having said that mine understands "cost effective" engineering\building.

If I read your post right - yes 1 row of noggins would be sufficient for catching the edge of plasterboard and acting as a fire break, which in an all timber house of 2 stories or more - should be there. But for a case where the walls are load bearing - it isn't quite so simple. Even from an empirical viewpoint, just building a stud wall, as the noggins start to get fitted, the rigidity of the wall increases and can be noticed.

At the end of the day - it depends on your individual case and if the build is subject to Building Regs.

Dibs

p.s. 1k screws just don't go as far as you think!


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Thomas (Bkn),

Whilst there is nothing wrong with pitched roofs, The Gambrel does have a certain elegance about it. It obviously charmed me :smile:
As we will see this building every time we leave the house, or come up the drive (or visitors) it will present something interesting to look at; why be conventional?

Hi Dibs,

It never hurts to see what other countries do with their houses; I hate closed minded thinking, hence the CYA reference a while back. I guess that if planning and building regs are required, one has to conform, even if it is really unnecessary. It’s the problem of professional indemnity and putting ones name on the line I suppose. 

That is the reason that we sized the workshop just under the 30m2 and no more than 4m tall. I was always the awkward sod when at work. My boss used to dread team briefs :wink:

As you might have guessed by now; I like woodwork, but love everything to do with house design and build, as per Passive houses and the like. And as for the mud brick houses in the Yemen...Sanaa, they are beautiful and functional, but your SE would have kittens. Conversely, they have stood for a very long time. We have a lot to learn.

Regards...Dick.


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## Mcluma

On the trusses

do you glue (PU) the braces on??

If i would do it, i would glue them on, and then screw them

Its looking good


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi McLuma,

Yes the braces will be glued and screwed.I have exterior Evo-stik which is stronger than the wood(allegedly) You mention PU, is it any better? 
You haven’t re-explained about your method of fixing fence posts yet, would you mind another go for this dim old fart :roll: 

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

Sorry, have no pics here to show what to do

But you take the bottom of the post, and paint them with rubber paint (not cheap but works wonders - Gbp 10 per liter)

Then use some 20 cm of 20mm conduit, stick that at the bottom of the hole, undereath the post

Put the post on top of that, and then fill the hole with concrete

What this will do is.. if there is any shrinkage in the post, dripp water will not go into the wood, but will seep down the post down into the plastic conduit, as you know posts normally rot away from the bottom as they will stand in water


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi McLuma,

Thanks for that, as the Germans say, alles klar......Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi All,
I have just cut the first batch of inverse birdsmouths on the bandsaw, and thought that you might be in need of a laugh. Because the 6 x 2 is such a lump to hold, we made a 'sliding table' by laying some PTFE cooking sheet on a flat surface. Amazingly, it worked quite well. Must away and assemble them.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

Its looking good

nice workshop, very light


----------



## Russell

That PTFE sheet is good stuff I sell both adhesive and plain backed to UPVC companies for welding plastic windows and have used lots of it myself for various jobs where I needed to reduce friction and for cooking


----------



## Vinny

Dick

little bit off topic but how have you found the BS. I took delivery of my BS350 about a fortnight ago and its proving "eventful" to set up. When tensioning the blade the scale reads no-where near what it should for the installed blade and I'm quite cautious of possibly over tensioning. I'm getting a good deal of "drift", all the bearings and rollers are set up as per the instructions so I'm putting the problem down to the blade, going to order one from tuffsaws very soon.

Shops looking very good btw, green eyed monster is starting to make himself heard :wink: 

Cheers

Vinny


----------



## Eric The Viking

Vinny":1nhw9u6k said:


> Dick
> 
> little bit off topic but how have you found the BS. I took delivery of my BS350 about a fortnight ago and its proving "eventful" to set up. When tensioning the blade the scale reads no-where near what it should for the installed blade and I'm quite cautious of possibly over tensioning. I'm getting a good deal of "drift", all the bearings and rollers are set up as per the instructions so I'm putting the problem down to the blade, going to order one from tuffsaws very soon.
> 
> Vinny



Have you tried Steve M's bandsaw videos? 

I ask because you're not alone in distrusting the tension 'meter'. Mine (SIP 12" variety) is approximate at best. Having stripped, cleaned and lubed it a while ago, I've got it reading more accurately, but it's still just a bit of steel shim wedged in a spring!

Steve describes a far better approach, which I use and like - tensioning by ear. It's better if he explains it than if I do (get the vid!). Suffice it to say, I've got a tension memorised for each blade size, and re-set it each time to avoid tiring' the blades. Works for me!

I'd also say that Ian's blades are brilliant - I've only recently tried some of the smaller sizes (had a resawing one fitted before), and they're outstanding, especially for freehand work. OK, mine is a small saw, but I've been really pleased with the performance I'm getting from it.

HTH,

E.


----------



## Vinny

Eric

I've got Steves DVD's and a set of 3 night shifts coming up, so come next week i'll have an idea of what youre on about !

Any how thats Dicks thread hijacked enough.

Vinny


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi McLuma,

Not only is it light, it’s warm too, and not far from the house :wink:

Hi Russell,

Welcome to the fun and helpfulness that this build is generating. I was a bit dubious about doing the write up, but because of the people on this forum, I am really glad I did. 
It actually restores one’s faith in humanity; and that is a serious statement, not overblown sentimentality. 

Hi Vinny,

At the beginning, I wrote a green eyed monster exclusion clause. Under that banner you would be classified as a tiger (see page 1).
The picture shows my first use of the B/S so it is early days yet. However, it seems that any comments must be tempered by reference to the price. Having waded chest deep through this site and others, it seems that even if one pays an alarming amount of money for kit, it can still have problems. Unusually for me, I read the book and watched the DVD by Alan Holtham first. My initial reaction is that it isn’t too bad for the price, excepting that it was welded on the p... The guides leave something to be desired, as some of them will not sit perpendicular to the blade, and trying to grab hold of the end to push/pull it to the correct setting is a pain. I see an early intervention to counter drill the end and tap in an allen screw so that I have something to grab hold of. As to tension, I follow AH’s tip, all you need is enough tension to drive the blade, that is, no slip when cutting. All other problems are down to a bad blade. I too will be ordering a set of Tuffsaw blades, as they get good reviews on here. Please let us know what you think of them, Eric seems pleased.
PS. Love your tag line.

Regards to all...Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

So what's happening,

Are all your trusses done?

It must be getting really growded in your conservatory?


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi McSlavedriver,

No more trusses have been manufactured due, firstly, to removing the end chimney. It has been leaking into the bedroom and we didn’t want to risk a Winter’s worth of rain on the ridgeboard end, rafters and insulation. Secondly, a trip to Frome to visit the grandchildren for the eldest’s birthday. We have also come home to a leak under the sink, which manifested itself when we turned the water back on......oh joy. Thank goodness we fitted an easily accessible Surestop water switch some time back, as the cock is impossible to get to. Spare us from inept plumbers......Dick


----------



## billybuntus

Just to make you aware that some little scrote appears to have stolen your chimney! :shock:


----------



## flying haggis

billybuntus":3eihp5hd said:


> Just to make you aware that some little scrote appears to have stolen your chimney! :shock:



What is santa going to do now!!!??


----------



## SeanG

They left the scafolding behind though, that'll come in handy on the workshop build


----------



## Mcluma

Excellent job done

and without breaking any of the glas of your conservatory =D> 

is that other roof your's as well, as that looks like a new roof

sorry to hear about your leak.

I had a leak on one of my toilet cisterns inlet valves, the previous owner overtide it so the plastic thread had come off, I replaced it with one with a brass thread, - job done


----------



## Cegidfa

I have to confess......I stole my own chimney, with help from a friend.

Santa can still use the central chimney, but he might have trouble extricating himself through the sealed fire door :wink:

Unfortunately, they will be stealing the scaffolding back soon. 
Sean, your tag line has been my mantra for the last 40 years. It has saved a lot of money, and I have learned a hell of a lot in the process.

Does anyone think that I was overcharged for the scaffolding? It cost £150.

Thanks McLuma, we attached a 1m tall by 1800 long bit of ply to the vertical scaff. plank and the floor boarding, both sides. These caught all the bits. Well worth doing, but tricky in the wind.
Yes, the other roof is ours, and was done as part of the extension 13 years ago.....before our time. 
The leak turned out to be the pressure regulator for the filter water tap, so I have bypassed it for now, and the company are sending a new unit....gratis, as it is out of guarantee and they want the old unit back so they can find out what went wrong. How about that for service.

If it stops raining, we can resume truss assembly tomorrow.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## SeanG

£150 seems ok to me, and the strap line hasn't saved me as much as it could of - if only I'd built something every time I said it  


I've been enjoying the workshop build - its looking very good!


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick:

I ran across this site about a week ago, and have been reading the workshop threads with particular interest since I added a shop onto the back of my garage just about a year ago. I think we share an interest in getting as much natural light as possible--I've got a clerestory on my shop. Will the skylights in your gambrel roof face toward the south? I don't recall seeing what you're going to use for heat in the shop, but are you going to add a ceiling fan to keep the heat from pooling in the high ceiling?

I'm finding the differences in construction details on your and others' shops intriguing--quite different from what we see around here in the midwest US.

Anyway, good luck and keep up the reports and pictures...

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Thanks Sean, I asked because that was the first scaffolding we have used, so we had no idea if it was a reasonable price. 
Interestingly, my son lives in Bristol now and is loving it.

I’m glad that you are enjoying the build, I get a lot of pleasure from the interchange with other ‘shedi knights’. People here are helpful and good fun, a great combination.

Hello Kirk, and welcome to the forum. My friend is an artist, and the first thing that he said, on seeing the CAD drawing was, ‘more light’; that was when I added the roof lights; yes, they are nearly south facing. 
The beauty of the Gambrel design is, that due to the angle, direct sun is limited in the work area, although it does allow more heat to pass into the shop via the ’g’ rating of the glass. I am hoping to make them opening to vent the warm air. Also, the circular end windows, with luck, will be either opening, or removable. If I were to fit a fan there it would create a Venturi effect that would both cool and remove the fine airborne dust that escapes the dust extraction. As to heating, I am going to wait and see how the insulation performs, as it will be a bit different to the norm, for the UK workshop. But I will make provision in the wiring for it to be added later.

Can I take it that you have a ‘standard’ pitched roof on the shop. If so does that mean that the clerestory windows are are fitted at the top of the wall, under the roof join? A picture would be very interesting, but you need to have posted about six times before the pictures are not considered as spam and blocked.

Given that I have borrowed the Dutch Colonial design from the US, I am interested in your perceived differences in construction methods, please let me know. 

I have just google mapped your city, it looks like a pleasant location, with houses having a reasonable amount of garden, compared with the UK, who have the smallest houses in Europe.
Thanks for the good wishes and rest assured that I will continue reporting back, as I thoroughly enjoy doing it......to my surprise.

Regards ......Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":1p8im467 said:


> Hello Kirk, and welcome to the forum. My friend is an artist, and the first thing that he said, on seeing the CAD drawing was, ‘more light’; that was when I added the roof lights; yes, they are nearly south facing.
> The beauty of the Gambrel design is, that due to the angle, direct sun is limited in the work area, although it does allow more heat to pass into the shop via the ’g’ rating of the glass. I am hoping to make them opening to vent the warm air. Also, the circular end windows, with luck, will be either opening, or removable. If I were to fit a fan there it would create a Venturi effect that would both cool and remove the fine airborne dust that escapes the dust extraction. As to heating, I am going to wait and see how the insulation performs, as it will be a bit different to the norm, for the UK workshop. But I will make provision in the wiring for it to be added later.
> 
> Can I take it that you have a ‘standard’ pitched roof on the shop. If so does that mean that the clerestory windows are are fitted at the top of the wall, under the roof join? A picture would be very interesting, but you need to have posted about six times before the pictures are not considered as spam and blocked.
> 
> ...
> Regards ......Dick.



Thanks for the quick response, Dick. I saw your issues with the post count, so I'll send a few posts before putting up any pictures.

My clerestory runs the length of the shop, so divides the roof into two levels separated by a 4' high vertical wall. Each side has 5 windows, and two on each side open to allow cross ventilation. The ceiling in the clerestory is 16' above the floor, so I have two ceiling fans to both cool things down in the summer and keep the heat from pooling high up in the winter. I don't know what your winter temps are like, which is why I asked about heating. Here, our average winter daily temps are about -6C for a low to +4C for a high, and we can dip as low as -20C for several days at a time. So heating is essential if I'm going to get anything done in the winter.

I think your end fan idea is a good one. If you're going with circular windows on each end, I'd put a fan in one and just have the other open (if possible). Or just put a fan under the roof peak on one end, and leave the windows alone.

More later, after I've done some real work...

Kirk


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick:

Here's a couple of pictures of the clerestory in my shop:






And inside:





I'm told this is also called a monitor roof, but there's some overlap in the definitions so I suppose it could be either. As you can see, I could have (and probably should have) put an exhaust fan up near the peak at one end. But the opening windows worked well over the summer. (Ignore the oddball window sizes. There was an order screwup, and the contractor later replaced the small ones.)

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Kirk, my, you have been busy to get to a position where you can post pictures. I bet that the grass doesn’t grow under your feet :smile:

I think that you will, in one fell swoop, have put a lot of noses out of joint on this site :wink:

Sixteen feet tall, you lucky son of a gun. We are only allowed to build to thirteen feet, unless we get Planning Permission and then would have to build to Building Regs.
This would then require a structural engineers input which would entail deeper footings and bigger timbers; thus adding probably another $3000 approx. to the cost.
And to add insult to injury you appear to have air conditioning........pah :wink: :wink:

Seriously, that’s not a workshop, it would be a young house over here; and a very nice design to boot. Is it all brick with cladding? Do give us the gory construction details?

Just think, if I could have built to 16 ft, the roof would have been much better proportioned and had the ability to have a second floor of sorts.......not that I’m jealous :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Well, Dick, before folks get jealous, I'm pretty sure I spent a lot more money than most folks on this site, and I had a contractor build most of it. The building itself (foundation, framing, siding (except the brick), roof, and windows) cost $27,000. Insulation, brick & related materials, electrical, drywall, paint, heat pump, and other miscellaneous stuff was another $10000. The contractor had software to do all the engineering (though he almost had to get a structural engineer to sign off on some stuff, which would have been another $1k). I did do the brick, drywall, and paint, and had an electrician do all the wiring.

Building permits and regulations are handled locally here, and in my area are fairly relaxed. I did have building and electrical permits, which cost about $200. My brother-in-law in California says permits, soil testing, and various other similar items there would have cost $3000-$5000. 

The only brick is the surface you see on the one wall. Everything else is 2x4 framing. One of the interesting differences between what I see in shops on this site and what I'm used to is the foundation. Here's my foundation and slab just after the pour last year:





Note that the footings and stub walls (I think that's the terminology), and slab were poured as a unit (with some expansion joint between the slab and foundation). In your case, you've got footings, then concrete block, then brick on top of that, then your framing. I'm no expert, but I've never seen brick (as opposed to concrete block) used structurally like that on new construction. Brick is all decorative here now. I'm not sure exactly why that is, but it's likely to do with both earthquake regulations and the cost of labor. I'm originally from Los Angeles, and I can tell you that in a big earthquake brick turns into a pile of pink dust. And concrete is way faster to pour than laying brick.

Here's a framing shot, from about the stage your shop is at now:





Oh, and A/C is a necessity here. We had 8 or 10 days at or over 100F (38C) this summer, and many more over 90F with high humidity. 

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

Can I just say ‘ouch’ that’s a lot of, as we say over here, dosh. I am hoping that mine will cost no more than $8000, but, the only contractors will be us, so that makes a big difference. And neither can I complain about the standard of work :smile:

We managed to construct one more truss today before it poured down - yet again.
The only problem with building a workshop is that ......you need a workshop to construct it in :wink: 
Once we have made more parts, and, if it isn’t windy, we will throw a tarp over the frame and get as many trusses put together as we can.

Thanks for posting the pics, we share one thing in common, the distinct lack of noggings - I think you call it blocking, to stiffen the studs. On Dibs-h build, I made a ref. to some research on the subject that found that they were not really contributing much, but our ‘head in the sand’, ‘CYA’ Building Inspectors still demand them...ho hum.

We do use your method of doing footings/ slab over here, and if I build the summer house, I will use that method, as it is all over in one pour. In the UK both brick and blocks are used for houses. The ‘typical’ Barratt house would use all brick above the footings. The lack of earthquakes makes a difference to the construction techniques. I used the red engineering bricks (waterproof and stronger) because a few rows will be seen, and blocks aren’t pretty.

90 - 100F and high humidity.......I humbly retract my joshing, perhaps you should refit the shop as a Turkish bath :wink: 

Regards...Dick.

PS. Barratt are a volume house builder of the kind that Pete Seeger sang about many years ago. ‘Little boxes on the hillside, all made out of tikky tacky and all look just the same.’ 
The man is amazing, in his 90s and still performing, I should be so lucky....ciao.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":22hq9y3l said:


> Hi Kirk,
> .
> We managed to construct one more truss today before it poured down - yet again.
> The only problem with building a workshop is that ......you need a workshop to construct it in :wink:
> Once we have made more parts, and, if it isn’t windy, we will throw a tarp over the frame and get as many trusses put together as we can.


Well, Dick, a step a day will get you there--eventually. When I was a kid my father built our house. He built the garage first, then we moved in--my sisters and I in the garage and my parents in a trailer along side. We lived in the garage for a year and a half until the house was done enough to move in. And another year in the house with bare floors until the trim and carpeting were done.



Cegidfa":22hq9y3l said:


> Thanks for posting the pics, we share one thing in common, the distinct lack of noggings - I think you call it blocking, to stiffen the studs. On Dibs-h build, I made a ref. to some research on the subject that found that they were not really contributing much, but our ‘head in the sand’, ‘CYA’ Building Inspectors still demand them...ho hum.


Ah, yes. When building that house (early 70's), my dad called them fireblocks and they were required, one per stud opening. The idea was to slow down fire if it started inside the walls. By the late 80's when he built his next house, they weren't required anymore. I saw Dibs' effort, and was wondering what it was for. Why would an interior stud wall, fronting a block wall, need any stiffening?



Cegidfa":22hq9y3l said:


> ... The ‘typical’ Barratt house would use all brick above the footings. The lack of earthquakes makes a difference to the construction techniques....



I'm surprised. I'd think a cheap house would use framing, because the labor is less---it's kinda hard to use a nail gun on brick. But maybe your construction lumber is a lot more expensive.



Cegidfa":22hq9y3l said:


> ...
> 90 - 100F and high humidity.......I humbly retract my joshing, perhaps you should refit the shop as a Turkish bath :wink:
> 
> Regards...Dick.
> 
> PS. Barratt are a volume house builder of the kind that Pete Seeger sang about many years ago. ‘Little boxes on the hillside, all made out of tikky tacky and all look just the same.’
> The man is amazing, in his 90s and still performing, I should be so lucky....ciao.


Ol' Pete's pretty tough, alright. I didn't know he was still performing, though.

Have you got all your electrical planned out? That's one area where my wife demanded a professional--she didn't want me burning the house down.

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":cratjj3j said:


> I saw Dibs' effort, and was wondering what it was for. Why would an interior stud wall, fronting a block wall, need any stiffening?
> Kirk



Kirk

My walls, whilst interior are actually load bearing - hence the requirement to stiffen them. Although they've been built sort of out of sequence, when the structure was designed, the calculations were done on the basis the internal walls were load bearing.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk, 
Yes the electrics are planned....ish. The problem is that the workbench that I already have (an old teak lab bench) is taller than the windows. This came about because we have two oak triple glazed units going begging, so the workshop was designed around them.
The problem is how to have available sockets for occasional bench use. Fixed appliances are ok. The only choice is a double on the right hand side of the bench, which is adjacent to the doors, or angled lab' style sockets at the back of the bench that themselves, plug in to the adjacent wall socket. 
As this is my first workshop I have no idea how I will use it, so the system will evolve once the build is finished. The intention is to use surface mounted conduit, so it isn't a problem. 

Regards...Dick.


----------



## wobblycogs

I wouldn't be inclined to fit sockets into the top of a work bench as I think they will most likely get in the way more than they help. A couple of sockets on the side or front might be good though. 

As for plugging those sockets in when needed I'd fit a 16A round connector rather than a regular plug. It's likely to get a lot of insertions / removals and the sockets will be providing a fair bit of power so a more industrial connection is in order I feel.

Hope that makes sense


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
At last it’s time for an update, making the trusses is a time consuming job, but we now have four erected without mishap. As you will see from the first picture, the hoisting method is high tech. First we fit temporary stop blocks to stop the feet sliding, then we lift the truss into a horizontal position and block it with the steps. Diane takes the weight on the rope and I use a ladder to push the truss to an upright position. We have also made clamp on stops that fit to the upper chord that hold the truss at the correct position. The rope is tied off and a temporary brace fitted. Before fixing the feet we found it expedient to clamp the feet to the stop blocks, as one moved a bit out of position.






Muggins fixing the last truss. 






The job was a lot easier than we expected, however, fixing the roof boards might not be, as each one weighs 44kg. Not a lot of fun in a high wind :shock:
Back to the dubious joy of truss assembly tomorrow, weather permitting.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## xy mosian

What a well thought out, and equally well executed solution. 
Now for the heavy sheeting. How about a ramp of sand?  

xy


----------



## jimmy rivers

Hope the weather's kind Dick as I'm really enjoying following this build  The Roof looks great! 

Jim


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Wobblycogs, 
Thanks for the concern. The bench mounted sockets would be my least favourite method I have to say. Probably, the wall mounted double socket by the doors will be enough, and metalclad would be sensible in a workshop, but in all the pics that I have seen, people use white plastic, which I think is asking for trouble. 

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, those trusses look really nice. Four down, what, another dozen to go? I hope they're getting easier with practice. Maybe you'll get a break on the weather soon, too. 

I like the idea of you re-using the windows. Not only is it saving you money, but it's a shame to see something usable like that just thrown away. 

For power on your bench, I agree that you don't want anything on top. Too much chance of damage, and you're sure to get sawdust down inside. You could try the local equivalent of this:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/28-9940&green=16255373951

Mount it under your bench top, or maybe vertically on a leg, and you should have as many outlets as you need. I'm pretty sure you'll find that two won't be enough--a couple of routers, a work light, maybe a palm sander, and you'll be hunting all over for someplace to plug in and running extension cords across the floor.

My shop also has surface mounted conduit for the wiring. It works great so far. Make sure you mount the outlets up high (mine are 5' off the floor) so you can get to them after you've got machines in and stuff piled up against the walls. By the way, I was reading up on UK electrical wiring just so I could understand the lingo. It's...a whole different country, let's just leave it at that. 

Kirk


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## Mcluma

Nice job, but what about the overhang on the bottom to create soffits, are you going to have a cutter?


----------



## flying haggis

Re having enough sockets in the workshop, how about one of these at just above head height near the bench
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Bren ... -19836.htm

and as for the wall sockets I would definetly recommend metal clad with wiring in conduit, again metal if you can afford it. 


http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Electri ... 088/p55722

Also how about running conduit or trunking (easy to alter when you change your mind about the layout)round the shop at just below ceiling level and dropping down to the sockets as and where you need them with 16A blue sockets for machinery

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Electri ... 430/p20698


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello xy,

 Thanks for your kind words. I think that that much sand would bankrupt us :smile:
We will use the same principle again for the boards, but I will fit retaining lugs at the top of the lower chord to hold the sheets in place until we fix them.

Hello Jimmy,
Welcome to our build, thanks for the comments, and I’m glad that you are enjoying it. Luckily, we had a dry, fairly sunny day today. This enabled us to cut and assemble all the parts for another truss and get two more fixed in position....Result.

Hello Kirk,
Six more trusses to go now, but heavy rain forecast for tomorrow, so we will concentrate on batch producing parts in readiness for friday and saturday, which are supposed to be warm..ish and dry. 
As to the multi- socket, I’m not a lover of them in a shop situation. “A couple of routers, palm sander”, all at once! I only have one pair of hands :wink: Over the years of wood mangling, I only have out that which I need for the job in hand. This isn’t due to my tidy nature, more to do with working in a very small room for the last thirty years.
So what was it about the difference between our wiring codes and practice that you found unable to comment on.....spill the beans.

Hi McLuma,
Thanks for that. Regarding the overhang, may I refer you to the skeleton drawing on page one. The final design may not have the horizontal soffit bar, just the ‘kickouts’ as our American cousins call them. This would reduce the bulkiness of the finished look, and still allow for a gutter.

Regards to all....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi fh,
Thanks for the links. The Energy cube looks to be a good idea, certainly worth considering.
Unfortunately, I don’t have access to all the pipe strangling gear any more, so it will have to be plastic. But, a) it’s quite tough, and b) I don’t tend to chuck wood about, mostly because I’m not strong enough :shock:
As to your suggestion about running pipe/trunking at high level and blue sockets, that is exactly what I have in mind. Thanks for the ideas though.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":1ls99aet said:


> Hello Kirk,
> ...So what was it about the difference between our wiring codes and practice that you found unable to comment on.....spill the beans.
> 
> Regards to all....Dick.



Two words--Ring mains.

I certainly get the 50 hz thing, and I think I understand the 240V hot to neutral. I'm still trying to get a feel for size of motors that can run on your 13 amp and 16 amp circuits compared to our 15 amp/120v circuits and 20 amp/240v circuits. There's that kw to hp conversion in there too--not hard, but one more mental step to keep track of.

As far as multiple tools plugged in at one time, I have two hand-held belt sanders and will go back and forth between them--clamp down the piece, sand with 80 grit, then 120 grit, then flip the work over and do the other side, etc. Saves a lot of repositioning and belt changing.

Anyway, it's been warm and dry here--maybe we can send it your way.

Kirk


----------



## flying haggis

[/quote]




Anyway, it's been warm and dry here--maybe we can send it your way.

Kirk[/quote]



PLEASE!!!!!!


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
At last, the roof skeleton is finished. I thought that we were never going to get there.
And just in time as it is due to rain and blow tomorrow.
The pic below was taken before the purlins were fitted, as the light was about to turn contre jour, not ideal for seeing detail.








So we had to have a topping out ceremony.






Now for Fun with a small f; order and fit the roof sheeting at 44kg a board. Perhaps we can have a day off tomorrow to recover? We seem to have lost the concept of ‘Le Weekend’, having worked every day since July - weather permitting.

Regards...Dick.


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## Mcluma

=D> ccasion5: =D>


----------



## Cegidfa

Time for an update, at last. The kickouts have finally been finished and fitted, and being able to peg the tarp further out has really helped with the drying out. Before, the water was being held in all the timber joints, now, with more air flow, they are better able to dry.

The first roof window cross noggings have been fitted, but it was getting a bit dark, not to mention, 0°C. It dawned on my, by now, permafrosted cell that it could be made deeper, so that’s tomorrows first job. I can gain a whole 50mm extra of light.

We were originally going for three roof lights, but it meant cutting one of the the newly fitted trusses to get it central.
So we have elected to fit four units. This has been compounded by the fact that with the tarp over, it gave some impression of how dark it could be, so only we could decide to fit another four the other side :shock: :shock:
Not a bad decision for someone who has never made a window in his life.....And then there’s all the sealing and probable leaks...ho hum.

The 18mm WBP roof ply arrived yesterday, so as soon as the noggings are done we have the dubious joy of hoisting them up. We now have two pheasants that come every day to inspect the workshop, and I was wondering if I could harness them to the sheets to help with the lifting :smile: We all understand horsepower (depending on the size of the horse that is) so how many pheasants would it take to lift between 30 and 40kg? This could be a suitable thesis for an engineering undergraduate; or should we just convert them into dinner? :shock:
Well, that’s it for now, see below the current state of the build. The next pic will probably be of me frost welded to the roof board.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## MickCheese

Looking good.

Getting quite cold now you had better get a hurry on. :wink: 

Mick


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":14874eb5 said:


> We were originally going for three roof lights, but it meant cutting one of the the newly fitted trusses to get it central.
> So we have elected to fit four units. This has been compounded by the fact that with the tarp over, it gave some impression of how dark it could be, so only we could decide to fit another four the other side :shock: :shock:
> Not a bad decision for someone who has never made a window in his life.....And then there’s all the sealing and probable leaks...ho hum.
> 
> The 18mm WBP roof ply arrived yesterday, so as soon as the noggings are done we have the dubious joy of hoisting them up. We now have two pheasants that come every day to inspect the workshop, and I was wondering if I could harness them to the sheets to help with the lifting :smile: We all understand horsepower (depending on the size of the horse that is) so how many pheasants would it take to lift between 30 and 40kg? This could be a suitable thesis for an engineering undergraduate; or should we just convert them into dinner? :shock:
> Well, that’s it for now, see below the current state of the build. The next pic will probably be of me frost welded to the roof board.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Maybe you could trade the pheasants for some peasants. They're much handier with sheets of plywood.

So are you adding just the one extra light, or are you adding four more to the other side too? 

I don't think you need to worry about leaks too much. Those happen because workmen get in a hurry and cut corners. You'll be following the directions and not rushing, so they should go in just fine.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Mick,
Thanks for the encouragement; unfortunately, cold and quick tend not to co-exist. I can just see me doing star jumps on the top of the ladder (I can’t do them on the ground) :shock:

Hi Kirk,
I am afraid that peasants are in short supply these days, not to mention that they are ‘revolting’ (historically). I was going to make reference to a sudden shortage around 1776 :wink: but Diane suggested that you might take umbrage and leave, and we don’t want that. I felt that you were made of sterner stuff, what is your view? I assume that banter is de rigueur in the US, as it is here.

As to the windows, unless I wimp out, there will be a total of eight windows. It will make for a light filled shop. 
Errr, following directions?? I will be designing, making, and fitting the pesky things. Now, if only I had a nice warm workshop...............

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":sizhhtm0 said:


> Hi Kirk,
> I am afraid that peasants are in short supply these days, not to mention that they are ‘revolting’ (historically). I was going to make reference to a sudden shortage around 1776 :wink: but Diane suggested that you might take umbrage and leave, and we don’t want that. I felt that you were made of sterner stuff, what is your view? I assume that banter is de rigueur in the US, as it is here.


Now Dick, surely you realize we've never had any peasants over here? As soon as they stepped off the boat they were all "Voters". Well, except for the slaves, but we got over that part. The family tree is of course packed with peasants, but I don't think you want them--the Russians are surly, the Germans belligerent, the Irish ones are drunk, the Scots are drunk _and_ belligerent, the English really are revolting, and as for the Welsh, well, after they get back from their cattle raid they have their spelling lessons to attend.




Cegidfa":sizhhtm0 said:


> As to the windows, unless I wimp out, there will be a total of eight windows. It will make for a light filled shop.
> Errr, following directions?? I will be designing, making, and fitting the pesky things. Now, if only I had a nice warm workshop...............
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Making windows from scratch? Now that is going whole hog. I've never heard of anyone do that. At least anyone not living in a log cabin, anyway. Especially not windows like yours that won't be vertical. Do you have a book or plans or something? When you get to it, I'd like to see details. I think you're going to have to really take care around the lower edges to prevent the water pooling and soaking through.

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":2n93yj6g said:


> Making windows from scratch? Now that is going whole hog. I've never heard of anyone do that. At least anyone not living in a log cabin, anyway. Especially not windows like yours that won't be vertical. Do you have a book or plans or something? When you get to it, I'd like to see details. I think you're going to have to really take care around the lower edges to prevent the water pooling and soaking through.
> 
> Kirk



I made the ones for my 'shop. Being rather particular about what I wanted - the quotes were rather high, so I made my own and the saving more than paid for a Domino.  

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
Now then, don’t hold back.......
May I refer you to the following, It’s from the ‘60s, and is the humour that Diane and I grew up with. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8 
Just in case you find it hard to decipher, the lyrics are on the lower link.
http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiTHENGLSH.html

They were called Flanders and Swann, both now deceased, but we have all their CDs. One could say that they are our equivalent of your Tom Lehrer.

We Welsh peasants always do things the hard way (ok, we are only proto Welsh, but trying hard. The unkind just remove the ‘hard’).

There are no plans or books, it will be a case of wing it, I have looked ‘very closely’ at some Fakro roof lights (Polish, I think) and thus have some idea of how to proceed.
As it happens, I have no choice in the matter, as the gussets required on a gambrel truss make the openings less than 600mm on centre/center, which all the 'off the shelf' roof lights are made to fit. Getting the geometry right is the only problem that I foresee, but good old Sketchup will come to the rescue. Essentially, it is only a big box on top of a smaller one........all the rest is detail...........now stand back and watch me make a total 'raised male chicken' of it. 

Regards...Dick.


----------



## merlin

I always called these type of roofs a Mansard, a Gambrel is a double pitched roof with gablet at the top and a hip below it.
Merlin.


----------



## MickCheese

Cegidfa":27t1nc0l said:


> There are no plans or books, it will be a case of wing it, I have looked ‘very closely’ at some Fakro roof lights (Polish, I think) and thus have some idea of how to proceed.
> As it happens, I have no choice in the matter, as the gussets required on a gambrel truss make the openings less than 600mm on centre/center, which all the 'off the shelf' roof lights are made to fit. Getting the geometry right is the only problem that I foresee, but good old Sketchup will come to the rescue. Essentially, it is only a big box on top of a smaller one........all the rest is detail...........now stand back and watch me make a total 'raised male chicken' of it.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Do you need all eight to open? I only ask as the less opening ones the quicker it will be, as you had originally only wanted four would you consider four opening and four fixed to save on the time and money?

I really like your build and cannot wait to see the finished article. The workshop builds always hold my attention.

Mick


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Merlin,
The Mansard roof was named after François Mansart, the originator of the style. Gambrel is from French and refers to the hind leg or hock of a horse.

Mansard roof
A roof that has two slopes to each side, the lower slope being much steeper. To better accommodate rooms inside the roof. A mansard has the slopes on each side, it could be related to a hip roof in this respect.

Gambrel roof.
The gambrel has two slopes to each long side, the lower slope being much steeper. To better accommodate rooms inside the roof. A gambrel has gable walls on the shorter side.

Gablet roof.

A gablet is a small gable at the top of a hipped roof.





I hope that helps.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Mick,
I hadn’t mentioned it, but I have every intention of having the rear lights fixed. The thought of manufacturing eight openers would be my idea of hell. I suppose that the wise thing to do would be to wait until the roof is boarded (with the front four lights openings), clad the sides and see how much light is present, and then make a decision. But that means that I have to plunge cut the openings up on the roof. Not my idea of fun......decision,decisions.
Logic dictates that one can’t have enough light in a workshop, but the reality is that I will always want some artificial lighting; can someone make my mind up for me :smile:

I’m glad that you are enjoying the build, I get a lot of pleasure from all the interactions with other members, both encouragement and helpful ideas.

Regards...Dick.

PS. I always think of your strap line when teetering on the roof :wink:


----------



## MickCheese

Cegidfa":hp9tqxpq said:


> PS. I always think of your strap line when teetering on the roof :wink:



I am a very keen motorcyclist riding for pleasure and work so my strap line is intended for that, but, it works for woodworking too. Rushing a job a few years ago I managed to catch my finger on the almost stationary blade of my table saw. Still did enough damage to need stitches but I am now so much more careful and try never to rush.

Mick


----------



## flying haggis

Cegidfa":1781xmwn said:


> Hi folks,
> At last, the roof skeleton is finished. I thought that we were never going to get there.
> And just in time as it is due to rain and blow tomorrow.
> The pic below was taken before the purlins were fitted, as the light was about to turn contre jour, not ideal for seeing detail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we had to have a topping out ceremony.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Now for Fun with a small f; order and fit the roof sheeting at 44kg a board. *Perhaps we can have a day off tomorrow to recover? We seem to have lost the concept of ‘Le Weekend’, having worked every day since July - weather permitting.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Just a thought, but could you pull the roofing sheets up from the opposite side using a rope over the ridge. If you put two ladders for them to slide up them on to the roof, even if the rope was tied round the sheets once you have a couple of fixings in them you can then untie the rope


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello FH,
This is interesting. Earlier, Mick Cheese suggested an idea which I already had in mind, and you have done the same. That is exactly what we intend to do; with the friction at the top, and a steep angle, Diane should be able to hold the weight whilst I get ready for the next ‘big push,’ failing that Diane will ascend heavenwards at a fair rate of knots, and I could end up wearing a very fashionable piece of WBP ply.

This has happened to me when giving a friend a hand to lop a rather too tall willow. He cut off more than I could counterbalance, and up I went, about six feet. He nearly fell out of the tree laughing whilst I had to drop and practice the parachute landing roll that I had been taught as a lad in the ATC. But thanks for the suggestion, keep them coming.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## wobblycogs

I can attest to the fact that you don't want to be wearing a piece of WBP that has slipped off a roof. I was re-roofing a small shed with my accident prone dad many years ago. I pushed the 4x4 piece of ply up onto the roof and he band a nail through to hold it in place. Unfortunately he missed the rafter so the board was just hanging there. As he went to get the next nail the board jumped the rafter and slide down the roof. Being young I managed to jump out the way and avoid decapitation but the board caught me in the back of the leg - wow, it hurt.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dibs-h":lpo941mu said:


> kirkpoore1":lpo941mu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Making windows from scratch? Now that is going whole hog....
> 
> Kirk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made the ones for my 'shop. Being rather particular about what I wanted - the quotes were rather high, so I made my own and the saving more than paid for a Domino.
> 
> Dibs
Click to expand...


Maybe I'm just touchy on that subject. My house has had a number of leaks due to poor attention to detail while under construction. Most of these were roof related, but some were due to poor flashing around windows or vents. In my case, going with a commercially built window would be my choice because there would be one less thing to go wrong. I've been looking at various websites, though, and I think the key is the right flashing and right installation. It's certainly worth doing some research, though, not just "winging it". 

As for Flanders & Swann, since my grandmother's maiden name was Swann, maybe I come by my attitudes natually.

Kirk


----------



## xy mosian

Sliding the ply panels up a couple of ladders might be less fraught if a person on each ladder had an 'S' hook. One end under the edge of the ply, the other on a ladder rung.

I'm sorry I've forgotten. If you intend putting storage into the roof void, when finished, would it be worth putting the supports in before the roof. To form a sort of permanent work platform?

By the way I'll be sorry to see the end of that giant blue trutle, but I'll bet you won't  .

Keep up the great work. That good lady of yours deserves a medal.

xy


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello xy,

So the idea is that if we experience a ‘sudden downward shift’ the hooks will arrest the progress. Sounds a good idea, thanks for that.
I will be putting four collar beams in, thanks for reminding me...I had actually forgotten. As you say, they would make a good platform base.

Now there’s dedication, we were out today making the four end kickouts that have to fit on the end overhanging trusses, as opposed to on the side, like the other 26. ...........It was -6°C in the morning, and a sultry -3°C this afternoon. The only body parts to suffer were the fingers (in the morning); the afternoon was ok.....We even managed five hours on the solar heating, so that’s another day that we don’t have to use LPG to get hot water. :smile: 

So what’s wrong with a giant blue turtle then :wink: You should see my neighbour ‘blend into the countryside’ in his bright orange overalls - he is almost invisible :shock:
Diane doesn’t deserve a medal, after nearly forty years of my particular brand of insanity, nothing less than beatification will do.

Regards...Dick...aka Nanook of the North.


----------



## xy mosian

Crikey you are determined to get this lot finished, and why not. Good on you.

The 'S' hooks. Actually I was thinking "hoist the ply up about one rung, hook it on, adjust stance, and repeat". A fairly slow progress up to roof level but always working at a comfortable level with time for a breather. Not that it seems that either you or Diane need one  

xy


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
So what did you think to the video of Flanders and Swann, or was it not your style of humour? Humour has moved on a lot since then but I think that they still hold up.

So much for getting the 'expert's in to build your house, we have our fair share of bodgers (and I don't mean chair makers) in this country. We had trouble with our conservatory build, it took them a long time to get it right, but I am a fussy ******. I have vowed that 'tradesmen' will never darken our door again. If we can't do it, it won't get done.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":24enueo6 said:


> Hi Kirk,
> So what did you think to the video of Flanders and Swann, or was it not your style of humour? Humour has moved on a lot since then but I think that they still hold up.
> 
> So much for getting the 'expert's in to build your house, we have our fair share of bodgers (and I don't mean chair makers) in this country. We had trouble with our conservatory build, it took them a long time to get it right, but I am a fussy ******. I have vowed that 'tradesmen' will never darken our door again. If we can't do it, it won't get done.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Dick, I actually watched several of their routines on Youtube. Yes, a little dated, but that's because, I think, they weren't angry or really attacking or making a serious target of anybody. Good stuff.

"Bodgers"--I got your gist, but just had to look it up on Wikipedia. As it happens, I was assembling a chair this weekend, though no turned work on it:





My house problems predated my owning it, and weren't turned up by the pre-sale inspection because they only really show up when it's raining with high wind from certain directions. I'll be getting a new roof in the spring which should put an end to most of the problems.. No, I'm not doing it myself--not a big fan of heights. All part of owning a house, I figure. 

Yes, good contractors/tradesmen/repairmen/handymen/whatever can be hard to find. I can see that you'd be gun shy if you've been bit before. 

Good luck with your plywood. If at any point it seems dangerous or you think you're out of your depth, you should get help. No point in winding up in the hospital just to save a little money. Note that a drywall lift like Dibs is using on his shop will lift plywood up to your roof, too--you'll just have to slide it onto the roof after it's up there. And you can use it inside to do the ceiling.

Kirk



[/url]


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
Glad that you enjoyed F&S. I must be from the wrong era, why do people have to be angry or attack for comedy? Do you know of “The Two Ronnies” that is Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett? They used situations and clever use of language for comedic effect in a similar way To F&S.

I did wonder when I used ‘bodge‘ (to do something badly) whether it is used over there? 
As some wit said ‘Two countries divided by a common language.’
‘Gun shy’ would not translate over here, but the meaning is obvious.

Nice chair by the way, is your chair painting done by Harald’s daughter, or you?

We woke this morning to water dripping out of the boiler, -8 degrees C outside...oh joy.
The condense pipe had frozen up, so it’s out with the hair drier to melt the plug of ice and normal service is resumed. I must remember to clean the leaves out of the drain, or make a cover. I’ll add it to my ‘tuit list (get round to it). Too many ‘things,’ too little life left. Perhaps I should become a Buddhist, but I would probably re incarnate as a stick insect, knowing my luck.....TTFN.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":1a3cl76o said:


> so it’s out with the hair drier to melt the plug of ice and normal service is resumed. .



We have a cast iron bath where the over flow is separate to the drain. Someone left the plug in at the end, having almost drained the bath. No air behind water, so some water sat in the pipes. -5 degrees lately, so frozen solid. Guess which muggins has to go outside, up a ladder with a heatgun?

Dibs.

p.s. Coming along nicely. I hate plywood sheets! Although lift does make it easier.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":214yo0vu said:


> Hi Kirk,
> ...Do you know of “The Two Ronnies” that is Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett? They used situations and clever use of language for comedic effect in a similar way To F&S.
> 
> I did wonder when I used ‘bodge‘ (to do something badly) whether it is used over there?
> As some wit said ‘Two countries divided by a common language.’
> ‘Gun shy’ would not translate over here, but the meaning is obvious.
> 
> Nice chair by the way, is your chair painting done by Harald’s daughter, or you?
> 
> We woke this morning to water dripping out of the boiler, -8 degrees C outside...oh joy.
> The condense pipe had frozen up, so it’s out with the hair drier to melt the plug of ice and normal service is resumed. I must remember to clean the leaves out of the drain, or make a cover. I’ll add it to my ‘tuit list (get round to it). Too many ‘things,’ too little life left. Perhaps I should become a Buddhist, but I would probably re incarnate as a stick insect, knowing my luck.....TTFN.
> 
> Regards....Dick.



Speaking of language, Dick, when you talk about your condense pipe freezing up I have no idea what you're saying. Usually when we get pipe freezes around here that means busted plumbing and water everywhere--but it sounds like you've got an issue with either your water heater or your heater for your radiators. 

I've heard of but never seen anything from The Two Ronnies--I do need to do some more browsing on Youtube. Clever use of language is only part of the story, though--nobody was better at language than George Carlin, but he was always making a point too, usually an uncomfortable one. 

I did the painting on the chairs--my wife limits herself to making seats on the Dantesca chairs. The painted panels were for the medieval re-creation group I belong to, so they were done with egg tempura painting using dry pigments on gesso. I am not a painter--I can't draw for cr*p. They were taken from real characters in 15th century paintings, sized on my computer, and then traced onto the gesso. 

Oh, and since you said you needed one, here you go:





Good luck with your pipes, and keep warm!

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
Isn’t the use of language fascinating, some things cross the Atlantic, and others don’t.
I didn’t think that tuit would be understood. Mind you, life has never been the same since watching ‘The Wire’. My son said don’t try to understand it, just go with flow, and he was right, a gripping piece of TV. 
Allegedly, American TV is supposed to have a pretty low standard, but we have found that if something is made by HBO then we give it a go. We haven’t been disappointed yet. There have been some excellent series.
I have to say that our TV is pretty barren, hence watching HBO. But it could be worse, we could live in Italy.

The plumbing that made no sense, refers to our central heating boiler. I think you would call it a furnace. But I think that you normally use blown hot air. Over here, all central heating boilers/ hot water heaters now have to be condensing boilers, as they are more efficient. But as the name suggests, they have a condense outlet pipe that goes to a drain, and if this is obscured by leaves, it will freeze and the water backs up into the boiler cavity and creates extra pressure which is then detected by a pressure switch to shut the boiler down. Hence my need of a tuit to cover the drain and then all will be well. And no, it’s not fitted by the ‘expert plumber’ as part of the job....Much gnashing of teeth.

I finished fitting the noggings for the four front windows today, so tomorrow will be cutting the collar beams to size and angle. I’m still not sure whether to do the four rear lights, as that side of the roof is shaded by tall trees. Is it worth the effort? :?

I take it that TTFN is understood, so TTFN.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## shipbadger

Dibs,

If it makes you feel any better you are not the only one, I was also up the ladder with a heat gun yesterday. The only difference in my case was it was the sink not the bath. A recurring problem that I haven't overcome in 25 years of living in th same house.

Tony Comber


----------



## Dibs-h

shipbadger":bcq80sfg said:


> Dibs,
> 
> If it makes you feel any better you are not the only one, I was also up the ladder with a heat gun yesterday. The only difference in my case was it was the sink not the bath. A recurring problem that I haven't overcome in 25 years of living in th same house.
> 
> Tony Comber



I left ours alone - bit of an incentive for the kids to start using the shower as opposed to the bath. I want to take the cast iron bath out and sent it for re-enamelling and a colour change (old ivory to white) as we don't have a matching toilet, but I've sourced matching ones in white. It's Edwardian art deco and it would be nice to have a period bathroom.

Checked it yesterday and the water in the bath had gone and the drain clear!

Dibs


----------



## Deejay

Afternoon Dick

_The condense pipe had frozen up, so it’s out with the hair drier to melt the plug of ice and normal service is resumed. I must remember to clean the leaves out of the drain, or make a cover. I’ll add it to my ‘tuit list (get round to it). _

Have you thought about lagging it? 

Google Armaflex

Nice workshop there  

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dave,
I didn’t realise that Armaflex was available in 35mm ID. It is worth considering, but I doubt that it will be available where I live. The only time it is a problem is when I forget to keep the drain clear, and the slower run off over the leaves allows Jack Frost to intervene. Although why a tv detective should want to come to our house is beyond me :smile:

Here we can’t even build 600 on centre, as they all only stock 2440 x 1220.

It will be a nice workshop when it’s finished :wink: I drilled and bolted the collar beams today, having cut them to size yesterday. I thought that working in -3 °C would be a problem, but to my surprise, it’s not bad; just the fingers give out occasionally. I tried thick gloves, but they just get in the way, so I went back to the lighter pair. Once I started fitting the timber connectors and tightening up the 10mm nuts, the circulation soon ratcheted up.

The next job is sheeting the roof...oh joy. :-({|=

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks, Time for another update.

Thursday, can I just say that working in -10°C is less than ideal; but by the afternoon it was a sultry -5. And today was a sweltering -0.5° C; I nearly took something off :shock:

The photo below shows the now fitted collar beams,which I did on my own as Diane had gone on a trip with the local WI mafia group. 






The next photo shows the lifting technique, which was the same as for the trusses. Sliding the panels up the ladders and tipping them over onto the upper chord was surprisingly easy, we weren’t looking forward to it at all.

Beforehand we had cut the bottom edge of the ply to 19.5 degrees so that the lower board would match well.It also meant that we could cut small pieces of ply at the same angle and fit them to the top edge of the lower part of the truss to hold the sheet in position and in the right place, once hefted up there. Unsurprisingly, the roof isn’t that perfect and the panels will require some tweaking to be a perfect fit. However, they will each be gapped by 3mm on both axes to allow for expansion and contraction, as per the Trada/manufacturers recommendations. Hardly anyone does this as far as I can see, but I’ve never been lucky so I follow the guidance.
Trying not to end up with a drawer full of rope that is too short, I left it in a coil as can be seen below. It became a right pain in the proverbial, so we cut a piece to length.....damn the expense - give the pirahna another cat....Why should goldfish have all the bad luck?






Below: this is how far we have got today, tomorrow, we will have to adjust the bottoms so that all the tops are in line ready for the small top pieces...So much for using a jig, perhaps a reel would have been better?






Well, thats it for now TTFN.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## AndyT

Looking really lovely!

I hope you have some energy left to make good use of it. I feel tired just watching!


----------



## kirkpoore1

I'm glad your lifting system is working well, Dick. 

Are you going to cut the window holes before you put the plywood up, or try to cut them in place?

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Andy,
Glad that you like it. We spent ages agonising over the design, and still wish it could have been taller and therefore more proportionate, but we weren’t prepared to spar with PP.

I bet you don’t feel as tired as I do :wink: And because it was windy we couldn’t get the tarp back on, and now it’s snowing...ho hum.

Hi Kirk,
I couldn’t believe how easy and safe it was; because of the friction, it wasn’t a ‘dead lift.’
As to the window holes, at first I just wasn’t sure which way to go, but having put the boards up so easily, we will probably put them up, mark, and lower to cut in safety. If I were to do it by measurement, it would end up as a dog’s breakfast. I rarely have luck doing things that way...just a lack of ‘eptness I suppose.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Fromey

In the end we're all going to thoroughly hate you for having such a nice home to do your work in. Please don't tell me you're going to completely insulate it and fit in a quaint wood burner so we can imagine you toasting yourself contentedly next to it, faithful hound at your feet and the smell of freshly cut wood shavings and hot buttered scones in the air. Bah! I'm off to my cold, tiny, SHED. :roll:


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Babber, (not sure of the correct spelling)
Ok, so that gives the game away. My daughter in law lives in Frome too, so we go regularly.

May I remind you of the envy exclusion clause on page 1 :wink:

I hate to say it, but yes, it will be well insulated, and not in the usual way. But that is for the future. However, you can rest assured that it won’t have a wood burner, quaint or otherwise :shock: just plain old electric rads........lots of them :wink:

Having just swept the snow off the roof, which melted as we did it, and then person handled a 7m x9m new green tarp over it (in the rain), your missive was just what we needed to give us a boost.

So xy mosian, how do you feel about a giant green turtle?

Cold and snow we can handle, but rain, ](*,) If anyone is tempted to use WISA ply - don’t. Before we found the really good WBP ply for the roof, we were recommended WISA WBP, it’s rubbish. One drop of damp on it was soaked up like a sponge which then froze and burst....not impressed. And to add insult to injury, it was £4 per sheet more expensive. And this on one of the gussets, that which imparts the strength to the system.
The galling thing is that we knew it was going to rain, so we vainly tried to cover the roof, but try handling a large tarp in the wind (that had been absent for the last week) 
So, until it stops raining, and we get a small amount of 'non grey glow' ( don't mention the s--) to dry things up a bit, the roofing will have to wait. I'm sure I will be found something to do in the meantime, like chopping wood and cutting logs so that we can sit in front of the 'quaint woodburner eating hot buttered scones, sans the 'faithful hound.' :wink:
That's all for now, TTFN.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## xy mosian

Cegidfa":1qjqs107 said:


> So xy mosian, how do you feel about a giant green turtle?
> 
> Regards....Dick.



That'll do for me. Great work.  I am envious of your energy.

xy


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
Luckily, the rain was for one day only, so today, we clamped the tarp in the middle at both sides and tied a rope across the roof. Then we rolled the tarp up to and just over the middle, so that we could work, but quickly pull it down again, without it turning into a spinnaker. So far it has been successful. The wet boards dried out in the sun and I was able to get them lined up, gapped and fixed by the end of the day.

We had a lovely sunset which we just managed to record in time. So I thought that I would share it with you. It also gives a gratuitous shot of the fixed panels....... :roll: 







Tomorrow we will cut the finishing thin sheets to complete one top side, and with luck some whole sheets on the back side :shock: 

TTFN for now.

Regards....Dick.

PS. Thanks xy, but if you knew how I felt at the end of the day, you might not be quite so envious :wink:


----------



## tool613

kirkpoore1":298kph6t said:


> Dibs-h":298kph6t said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kirkpoore1":298kph6t said:
> 
> 
> 
> Making windows from scratch? Now that is going whole hog....
> 
> Kirk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made the ones for my 'shop. Being rather particular about what I wanted - the quotes were rather high, so I made my own and the saving more than paid for a Domino.
> 
> Dibs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm just touchy on that subject. My house has had a number of leaks due to poor attention to detail while under construction. Most of these were roof related, but some were due to poor flashing around windows or vents. In my case, going with a commercially built window would be my choice because there would be one less thing to go wrong. I've been looking at various websites, though, and I think the key is the right flashing and right installation. It's certainly worth doing some research, though, not just "winging it".
> 
> As for Flanders & Swann, since my grandmother's maiden name was Swann, maybe I come by my attitudes natually.
> 
> Kirk
Click to expand...

 (hammer) 

Kirk as woodworkers we have to have and make our shops in wood, and making our own windows is part of the look. this does not mean that they need be drafty. i made the windows in my shop weather tight. its cold in Canada.
some times you just can't get the detail from modern windows. like old glass. i thought you guys would like to see a shop in Ottawa. 






























tool613


----------



## kirkpoore1

tool613":2xtcueim said:


> [Kirk as woodworkers we have to have and make our shops in wood, and making our own windows is part of the look. this does not mean that they need be drafty. i made the windows in my shop weather tight. its cold in Canada.
> some times you just can't get the detail from modern windows. like old glass. i thought you guys would like to see a shop in Ottawa.
> 
> tool613



There you go, Jack, with the stealth shop gloat. You shouldn't be hijacking Dick's thread just for vicarious thrills.

I realize that you may be hard pressed, particularly on a tight budget, with getting exactly the window look you want. And I'm not saying that home-made windows can't be tight. My concern, however, with them is that most woodworkers would be very hard pressed to match the performance of modern double or triple pane windows with a homebuilt product. Now, you've actually got storm windows over your regular windows, which will give you pretty much the same effect. But it does double the amount of work. It is up to Dick, of course, to decide whether he wants to go that way.

Kirk
who figures that Dick is typing up the next installment right now...


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello tool613/Jack?
Welcome to the madness, I see that you are a professional, whereas I am just an old hasbeen....has been lord knows what. (The older members here might remember this as a line from a Clinton Ford song - Fanlight Fanny).

That’s an elegant design, and there’s nothing like a ‘drive by gloat,’ feel free.

Hi Kirk,
Got that right. Even we had to admit defeat after the last entry. The temp. wasn’t any lower than -5, but with the higher humidity, it felt far worse; so I went in and ‘sketchupt’ a round window design to get some idea of how to construct it. See below.






Please note that the seals are not drawn yet. I intend to put them on the inside faces of the stop frames and one in the centre all round the inside of the frame, probably a brush type.

Up on the roof, the upper chord is now fully sheeted, and tomorrow we will do the lower back section. Progress is slow because of the short days, and our unwillingness to start too early - before morning coffee.........give us a break, we’re pensioners after all. I’ve done my fair share of early shifts :wink:
TTFN .......Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":3c3vnr03 said:


> There you go, Jack, with the stealth shop gloat.



Yep that's certainly got to be one of the stealthier gloats I've seen in a while! :lol:



kirkpoore1":3c3vnr03 said:


> My concern, however, with them is that most woodworkers would be very hard pressed to match the performance of modern double or triple pane windows with a homebuilt product.



You may be right - but here in the UK most homeowners have the choice of Vinyl (uPVC to us) or timber windows. The timber windows are made to spec (unless you get one from a big shed - but then again that too will have been made somewhere) - but with a little thought and patience a home woodworker can make windows of a comparable performance. With most things - there's loads on the internet, with windows, if you've never made one, there might not be much to guide you.

It took me ages to get to a point where I felt the design and details were at a sufficient level to start and even then a few test cuts\sample pieces. But then again who hasn't done a test piece if they're trying something new?

Dick - coming along very nicely. No - don't ask, I've had a dose of can't be arseditis! 

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,
If anyone on here deserves a gratis bout of 'can't be arseditis' it's you. You're still my hero for doing it all on your own =D> =D> 

Regards....Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":3kqpoh51 said:


> Up on the roof, the upper chord is now fully sheeted, and tomorrow we will do the lower back section. Progress is slow because of the short days, and our unwillingness to start too early - before morning coffee.........give us a break, we’re pensioners after all. I’ve done my fair share of early shifts :wink:
> TTFN .......Dick.



Dick, I've heard it said that being retired just means a shorter commute.

I don't think I'd be doing much construction in subfreezing weather if I had a choice. It was -15C here this morning with -25C wind chill, and on days like this I'm glad I've got a nice warm cubicle to work at.

Kirk


----------



## tool613

Dibs-h":22um8t7x said:


> but with a little thought and patience a home woodworker can make windows of a comparable performance.


Dibs
i would say better than pvc. a highest rated window is only R7 to R11. thats very expensive. the average is R4.5. the placement of widows has more to do with energy lose and gain than R value. when you take in to account repayment of sealed units, what is the point if all your saving are going to replacement cost. now if you want to fill a north wall with glass it pays. but r6 windows are 1.3/4" of batt insulation. not that much of a insulator. 

most people are fouled by the % a window is better.i mean having a window %100 better sounds good but it only adds 1" of batt insulation. now look a the cost of high performance widows. 

placement of window is key.(fenestration)

Dick great job on the shop . i encourage you to make your own windows,after all what is a shop for. add so sorry for the drive by.


jack


----------



## Dibs-h

tool613":1dseg8h4 said:


> Dibs
> i would say better than pvc. a highest rated window is only R7 to R11. thats very expensive. the average is R4.5. the placement of widows has more to do with energy lose and gain than R value. when you take in to account repayment of sealed units, what is the point if all your saving are going to replacement cost. now if you want to fill a north wall with glass it pays. but r6 windows are 1.3/4" of batt insulation. not that much of a insulator.
> 
> most people are fouled by the % a window is better.i mean having a window %100 better sounds good but it only adds 1" of batt insulation. now look a the cost of high performance widows.
> 
> placement of window is key.(fenestration)
> 
> Dick great job on the shop . i encourage you to make your own windows,after all what is a shop for. add so sorry for the drive by.
> 
> 
> jack



Jack

It's a trading game - whether it's a shop or a home, folk want natural light and that's costs. Both from a cost of fitting the windows and the heat loss associated with them. Here in the UK - Building Regulations now stipulate the (min) thermal efficiency required. It could be a lot better, but better than nothing.

As for efficiency - I'd say fit the best you can afford. Fuel prices are going nowhere except up, certainly in the UK, and at some point these increases will filter thru to insulations - bit of a vicious cycle. The only part that isn't increasing similarly (here) is one's disposable income! 

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Morning Kirk,
I do like, ‘being retired means a shorter commute.’ Over here, people say, after they have retired, that they don’t know how they found time to go to work. It’s so true :smile:
I am aware that ‘everything in America is bigger and better,’ but I think that you are welcome to -15°C....brrrr. And then in summer, you dissolve into your constituent parts :wink:

Morning Jack,
I have every intention of making the windows, firstly, for the experience, and secondly, the cost would be horrendous. Now, if only I had a nice warm workshop to make them in :smile:
As to the drive by gloat, we would like to build a summer house, and it was going to be another gambrel roof, but your design is tempting.

TTFN.....Dick.


----------



## tool613

Cegidfa":940u8sws said:


> if only I had a nice warm workshop to make them in



dick

you could alway use newfoundland glazing until your window are done.





good to here your making your own windows. if you are looking for details on how to make windows one of the best resources is architectural graphic standard.this book is the bible on how to build. the older addition will have many great detail for windows and weathering.try your library.

jack


----------



## kirkpoore1

tool613":39jn8zl6 said:


> Cegidfa":39jn8zl6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> if only I had a nice warm workshop to make them in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dick
> 
> you could alway use newfoundland glazing until your window are done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> jack
Click to expand...

Wow, Jack, I didn't know the Newfies had Missouri River floodplain foundations .






Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Jack,
I’’ll keep a lookout for the book, thanks. Do I take it that Newfies are the butt of jokes about Canukistan? Rather like the poor Irish over here, as in ‘there was an Englishman, Irishman and a Scot.........

My daughter, Helen, has just come back from living in St Johns for a year, and is ‘officially ‘ a Newfoundlander having ‘kissed the cod.’ Only in Newfoundland could they have a town called pointything, so what do they call a d****? 

I could use the Newfie glazing, but I still need solid walls and doors as well.....ho hum.


----------



## tool613

:ho2


kirkpoore1":3tip240u said:


> Wow, Jack, I didn't know the Newfies had Missouri River floodplain foundations



they don't Kirk. it so ya don't have to shovel snow to get in the door . you got to like the Missourian for making sure there trailer don't get washed away. kind of like the you know your a red neck if jokes.




Cegidfa":3tip240u said:


> Do I take it that Newfies are the butt of jokes about Canukistan?



really a great people and the friendliest i have every meet. a very beautifully place and some of the best trout fishing in the world. a very unselfish people that do happen to be the blunt of most jokes. you might find that book on goggle.


jack


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Jack,
That's exactly what Helen found.


----------



## Cegidfa

Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

However, we have had a visit from a very fussy ‘Building Inspector.’

Checking the threshold.






Inspecting the studwork.






Checking for the DPC.






Ladder Health and Safety.






We have, however, managed to finish the sheathing on the rear roof, but it got too cold, even for us :shock: 

Wishing you all a Merry Christmas, and all the best for the new year. :ho2 :deer ccasion5: 

Regards.....Dick and Diane.


----------



## wobblycogs

Merry Christmas, hope you passed your building inspection. 

This project (and Dibs workshop build) are slowly causing me to think that I can build a workshop extension on our place. Unfortunately I'll need planning and listed building permissions, sigh, so I probably won't get started till next year! That's some nice brick work by the way, very neat and tidy.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello wobblycogs,
I am glad that Dibs and I have given you the ‘inspiration’ to start your build. It was part of the reason for me doing the write up.....if we can do it, anyone can, with a bit of careful planning. The good brickwork is down to Diane, as you may have seen on page 2.

Oh, and the ‘Inspector’ passed the construction, but couldn’t sign it off as he had forgotten his pen, and an opposable digit :wink:

I was out working in -3°C today in the open front barnette. To my surprise it didn’t seem cold, I fully expect to start talking in Inuit any day now, and have a strange hankering for blubber :shock: So, if it's not snowing tomorrow, we might try putting up some more roof sheet. OK, so we are barking mad...no sense, no feeling.

Have a cool yule...Dick.


----------



## chris_d

Cegidfa":1tuic39o said:


> ...but couldn’t sign it off as he had forgotten his pen...Dick.



Surely he was equipped with a quill?

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

I have a great admiration for you and your wife - most inspiring. Good luck with the remainder of the build.

Kind regards,
Chris


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the kind words; we hadn't the heart to spoil his lovely plumage, just so that he could sign off. And would you risk that beak or feet? He is after all an upgraded chicken who could give one a good scratch. :shock: 
Hi to all,
It's a good job that we are getting used to the cold as the boiler conked out yesterday - again, on frozen condense, and 'ionising probe failure'. This, in spite of insulating the pipe in a box and then adding a celotex covering as well as the 200mm of fibreglass. Just as we were about to go out and 'try' to buy some electric heaters, we had a power cut that lasted until seven in the evening.....Have we upset someone? We then spent the day trying to buy plumbing parts to divert the condense pipe into the d/washer upstand which exits the house quite low down (ie. short exposure) and is cover by the insulating box. Luckily, once the flooded boiler had emptied, it dried over night and fired up without faulting, just as the spare probe arrived in the post. ' There's no finer thing' :norm: than having to wreck the kitchen cabinets and worktop just before Christmas Eve, so I'd best away and refit it all.

:ho2 Have a happy - (warm) "Winterval" :ho2 :deer ccasion5: ccasion5: 

Dick and Diane.


----------



## bucephalus

Thanks for posting this inspirational and informative build - like Dibs' build, it is a ongoing source of motivation and fascination... can't wait to see the finished product.

It might seem like a long time ago now, but I was really glad to see the 'no noggins' approach - I am doing without them in mine (as the studwork is fixed to concrete walls) but was a still bit unsure as I have never done anything remotely like this before.

Keep up the great work and write-ups, and have a Happy (and safe) New Year.


----------



## Charlie Woody

Hi Dick

I have recently joined this forum and one of the things that I have enjoyed is your workshop build. Love the shape of the building .... is that a North American influence?

Hopefully you managed to get your central heating problems resolved and enjoyed Christmas and New Year festivities.

Good luck with the rest of the build. I look forward to reading and seeing more photos.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello bucephalus,
I was going to say that you were a bit of a dark horse, but I was given ‘the look’ that said ‘put away the Christmas cracker jokes’.........

‘Inspirational, ongoing source of motivation and satisfaction’   but thanks for the encouragement; and I am glad that it is useful.

As to noggings, I mentioned to Dibs, a study, some pages back, that concluded that they didn’t offer that much extra. And if it’s good enough for American builds, it’s good enough for my faux American style workshop. 

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Charlie,
Welcome to the fold. With you and bucephalus’ comments, I must be doing something right for once in my life :smile: It is very satisfying to give something back in this life.

The design is definitely 100% North American. It is referred to as Dutch Colonial, because the early Dutch immigrants brought the style with them from the Netherlands.

We did manage to resolve the central heating problem by reading the manual; it’s a pity the plumber didn’t. 

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello All,
Whilst it’s been cold, wet and windy, we have beavered away at making the overhang supports. Did we need them? A long straight edge showed a drop of 12mm, so yes we did. They also add interest to the corners.
As to dimensions and form - Sketchup to the rescue. Then transfer them to a sheet of ply, draw a line at 45° from the corner and site the first piece having cut 45° at both ends, allowing extra for the tenons. For a trammel bar, I had a door length piece of 25mm wide thin ply (don’t ask why I have it ). Fit pencil one end and a nail the other; scribe the curve and bandsaw to shape. I was going to have shoulders at both ends but it dawned on me that if the allowance for insulation,battens and cladding didn’t quite work out, it would look poor. So back to the trammel bar and establish a new arc....doh.

Now then, how to hold the overhang at 90° - forward the trusty trolley jack and a suitably long piece of 2 x 2. Mark the tenon shoulders and route the mortices; has anyone tried routing above their head? It’s not fun.

The next ‘interesting’ experience is how to fit the tenons between two fixed points?
Forward the jack again, and pump until the wood protests. Fit the bottom tenon and insert the top one as far as it will go. Cross everything and pump again until I run out of nerve, and then whack the top of the curve with a large rubber mallet until it pops in....phew!
Only three more to go. See the finished thing below. 







Now the weather has improved we have fitted the lower chord sheathing and cut the holes for the rooflights. See below.






The next job is to cover the kickouts and fit the fascia, watch this space.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## xy mosian

Cracking stuff Dick, there is no holding the two of you. More power to your elbow.

xy


----------



## kirkpoore1

Nice solution, Dick. Functional, and decorative. I really like that you mortised it in, rather than just bolting it on.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

No, we haven’t died from exposure, just hibernating  However, working in 5°C with a mild easterly wind is colder than -3 with no wind...brrrr.

The kickouts have now been ply clad, 40mm of PIR added to the outside :shock: and the cladding battens fitted.

We had one problem; shingles require a drip cill across the bottom edge of the roof. We couldn’t source them anywhere (an easy task for our American cousins). 
A vented soffit was also required, at £86 for two lengths of ready perforated  I think not. We tried a local chap, who suggested over fascia venting, which we hadn’t come across before. 
This was £25 + another £25 for 9mm WBP ply for the soffit, so we are quids in. 

See below for the build to date.












It dawned on us that, because of the profile of the vent, we could use it as a drip edge. This saved a lot of money, and work, as we were going to use zinc flashing bent to a drip cill shape.

The fascia has been cut from 18mm ply and is in the process of being painted all round, in best Tom Silva style (that is, if anyone remembers This Old House. Strewth, he must nearly be a pensioner now.........ah.....so am I). For the uninitiated that means painting ‘clabbords’ on all faces. This helps with the longevity of the paintwork. We also have the windows in the conservatory, being stripped, rubbed down and painted - what a tedious task.
All we need now is some warmer weather, preferably wind free, for fitting the shingles.

That’s all for now.


----------



## Mcluma

Who did you get the shingles from, and what type are they


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi mcluma,
The shingles are Amourglass square butt shingles by Iko; sourced from Tudor Griffiths of Oswestry. Not a lot of use to you in Surrey  

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Halo Jones

Hi Dick / McLuma,

I've been following this thread for a while and it is good to see the workshop starting to look solid.

I used the same shingles on my (not so grand) workshop and sourced them from the online "roofingsuperstore". I am happy with the result but I would mention that in this cold weather I would store the tiles in the house and bring them out a few at a time or they will have a tendency to crack (especially any ridge tiles). I also found it a lot easier to cut the tiles on the reverse.

Cheers,

Halo


----------



## Mcluma

Cegidfa":hkg7lcve said:


> Hi mcluma,
> The shingles are Amourglass square butt shingles by Iko; sourced from Tudor Griffiths of Oswestry. Not a lot of use to you in Surrey
> 
> Regards...Dick.




The reason i ask, is that i sourced my tiles directly from Latvia,

They were half the price from the onces you buy in the uk

And the quality and service was very good

I will show some pics in the morning


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Halo and mcluma,
As yet, I haven't actually bought the shingles; I just have a source and price. I was waiting for it to get warmer :roll: Interestingly, I too had considered keeping some tiles indoors prior to use. Unfortunately, the house is full of tools and machinery :shock: but thanks for the warning Halo. The advice offered is the beauty of this site. 

Halo, can I ask, how did you manage the bottom drip edge for your roof, given my difficulty with sourcing suitable material?

mcluma, I would be very interested to see your pics and if possible your supplier info.

Many thanks gents.....Dick.

Back to painting fascias....what joy...I'd rather be (hammer)


----------



## Halo Jones

Just incase there is any confusion I am talking about felt shingles and not cedar shingles. 

There seems to be a number of instructions for the drip edge which made it a little confusing and I ended up making it up as I was going along! Iko suggest either using a zinc edging or having a first course of tiles put on upside down with the "tile" section pointing up toward the ridge then another bottom row pointing the right way. I found that the tiles I tried this on cracked but perhaps this was because it was only 5oC at the time. In the end I used two layers of edging felt. One tucked under the eaves and the second layer positioned into the guttering then the first proper row of tiles on top. Given that there is also a water proof membrane over the rest of the roof I figured that 4 layers should be enough. Whether it will last as long at the drip edge remains to be seen. If it helps you the roofing superstore also had a plastic edging strip http://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/prod ... of-10.html but decided not to use it.

Also at the ridge I folded the last row of tiles of each side over the top rather than cut them then a single layer of the cut ridge tiles. This also gives a total of 4 waterproof layers at the ridge, all over lapped.

I hope the above is clear.

Cheers,

Halo


----------



## Cegidfa

Thanks for that Halo. There was no confusion, other than my usual state of mind.
We will be using the double layer at the eaves Iko style, over a breathable membrane.

We can’t use your method at the ridge, as shingles require a roof vent for cooling when insulation is used. Do you think that we can find a supplier of Iko Armourvent on the web... ? 
We will have to contact them to see if they can provide one. 

If Kirk Poore is reading this he must be very unimpressed with our British manufacturers not supplying all the kit needed for the job. No American would put up with this.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":kwbomqxt said:


> If Kirk Poore is reading this he must be very unimpressed with our British manufacturers not supplying all the kit needed for the job. No American would put up with this.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



It's all what the local customers demand, Dick. For instance, in reading this site, it seems that tile roofs are pretty typical there. Here (midwest US), _nobody_ has tile roofs. Thus, you can't walk into the local borg (big box hardware/building supply store, aka Home Depot or Lowe's) and get the tiles or any special tools or fittings required. In California or the desert southwest, where tile roofs are common, I bet you can get those things at the same stores. If the felt shingle roofs are common there (say, more than 10% of the homes), then you're right, I would be surprised you can't get all the stuff you need. That sort of thing is often need just for simple repairs, let alone new construction or complete tear-offs. 

Which reminds me: When you put the roof on, and perhaps after it passes inspection (since I don't know the local laws), if you get a lot of wind out of a particular direction you should consider gluing down the shingles on the upwind edge of the roof. We get some pretty good wind here during thunderstorms, and I was averaging 2-3 trips onto the roof each year to replace torn off shingles. (This was partly due to the original roofers doing a crappy job, but also due to the climate.) Finally, in the fall of '09, I took some tubes of gutter sealer up on the roof and glued down the leading edge of every shingle that was a little loose, and almost all of them on the upwind edge of the gable end of the roof. 2010? No trips onto the roof. We're getting the roof reshingled this spring, anyway, so it wasn't intended to be permanent.

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":319hadg4 said:


> It's all what the local customers demand, Dick. For instance, in reading this site, it seems that tile roofs are pretty typical there. Here (midwest US), _nobody_ has tile roofs. Thus, you can't walk into the local borg (big box hardware/building supply store, aka Home Depot or Lowe's) and get the tiles or any special tools or fittings required. In California or the desert southwest, where tile roofs are common, I bet you can get those things at the same stores.
> 
> Kirk



Kirk

What's the reasoning behind that? Is it local availability of products, etc.? Also what's the lifespan of a shingled roof over there? 

Our house roof is the same stuff as the workshop - small rectangular clay tiles.

I re-roofed the house about 6yrs ago - reusing almost all the old tiles, and 6yrs on with a fair few high winds, all still perfect. When re-roofing, pulling off the old tiles, the original nails were copper and cut nails and the back pointing was still there - my money would be on that it was the original roof. Not bad for almost 90yrs. 

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

Most of the Bitumen tiles, or asfalt tiles have a glue strip on the back which you pull off when you put them down, then you put four nails in per tile

I'm totaly lost on the drip edge.

the way you start the tiles is you cut one tile horizontal in half, turn it round, nail it down with a 1 overhang, and the next one you put on normal with the same overhang, the cut of square you use again as your ridge tiles (so minimal wastage)

That is your drop edge, nothing else is needed

unless i completely got it wrong on the type of tiles you use

i refer to these tiles


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dibs-h":2u2d0fuc said:


> kirkpoore1":2u2d0fuc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...For instance, in reading this site, it seems that tile roofs are pretty typical there. Here (midwest US), _nobody_ has tile roofs....
> Kirk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kirk
> 
> What's the reasoning behind that? Is it local availability of products, etc.? Also what's the lifespan of a shingled roof over there?
> 
> Our house roof is the same stuff as the workshop - small rectangular clay tiles.
> 
> I re-roofed the house about 6yrs ago - reusing almost all the old tiles, and 6yrs on with a fair few high winds, all still perfect. When re-roofing, pulling off the old tiles, the original nails were copper and cut nails and the back pointing was still there - my money would be on that it was the original roof. Not bad for almost 90yrs.
> 
> Dibs
Click to expand...


Dibs:

I think it comes down to three things: Cost, cost, and cost. Oh, and maybe weather. Tiles cost a lot more than asphalt shingles, you have to have a stronger structure to support them, and it takes longer to install. When I had my last house reshingled about 10 years ago, it cost about $5000, including (IIRC) 2200 square feet of 25 year rated shingles, labor, repairs, and hauling off the old roofing material. It took 3 guys one day to do it. And these guys weren’t illegal immigrants (who usually do this kind of work). 

As far as weather is concerned, in some places snow loads are a concern. And I wouldn’t be surprise to learn that tiles are more vulnerable to ice dams, but I don’t have any information on that. 

When my father built the house I lived in as a kid back in the early 70’s, I think he said the tile roof on that (in California) was rated for 50 years. (BTW, these were big tiles—each weighed 7 pounds, and my sisters and I carried every one of them up to the roof on a 2x12 ramp—no crane for my dad. ) The asphalt shingles I will have put on have a 30 year rating, I think. Most people don’t worry about durability as much as they should, since few people live in the same house for more than 5-10 years. Now that I have my shop built, though, my foot’s nailed to the floor for good.

I'm sure tiles would be better in the wind, as you indicate, just due to the weight, though I doubt it would help with a direct hit from a tornado (which we get around here). Also, they stand up to really high heat better, which is why they're popular in Arizona. But otherwise, cost rule.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
I love the analogy of ‘the local Borg store.’ If their staff are anything like ours, the likeness extends beyond the shape of the building :smile: 
I suppose that because you have so many houses roofed in shingles, the ‘system’ is better designed. Here, shingles are only used for sheds and summer houses. A builder would give you a very funny look if he was asked to roof a house in them. However, I have seen some new developments on the commercial side that use them.

Thanks for the glue tip. As it happens, because we suffer with wind (watched Blazing Saddles too often) I was going to do just that - a blob on the corner of each tab, as recommended by Iko, the manufacturer. I was also going to lay the apex tiles from the right hand end so that the wind can’t get under the edge.

Bye for now..Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

As promissed a picture of my carport with the shingles




DSC_2547 by mcluma, on Flickr


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## Cegidfa

Hi Mcluma,
Thanks for the photo and info.You have certainly set me a standard to work to :smile: I hope our roof looks as good.
The drip edge (as used in America) is a metal sheet that sits under and supports the first row of shingles and then diverts the water away from the building.
The following link shows what I mean. http://www.traditionalroofing.com/TR6_drip_edges.html
You mentioned that your shingles were a good price; would you supply me with details of your supplier please.

Many thanks...Dick.


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## Mcluma

PM sent


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## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
To date, we have painted and fitted the fascias down both sides, and secured the over fascia ventilation. We then had the ‘fun’ of fitting the vapour proof membrane. The slightest puff of wind and we were wrestling with a large green sausage. First we snapped a line one metre up from the vents, and lifted the whole, cut length onto the lookouts and used spring clamps to hold the ends steady. Then I stapled every 600mm. Repeat this process ad nauseum up to the ridge. To get access above step and ladder height I made a hinged ‘roof ladder’ to the gambrel shape. Due to the low apex angle, nothing would hold me up as a normal r/l would. So I cut some ply into triangles that fitted on the end of the ladder to offer some resistance to slipping. Added to this was Diane on the end of a rope counterbalancing me.It worked well but my old H and S manager would have had kittens. 
See the finished roof below.







I have tried to show the over fascia vent, but I should have taken the pic before the vapour barrier was fitted. I hope that it makes sense.












Now we need the continuous roof vent as advertised and recommended by Iko (to extend the life of the shingles). Do they sell it in the UK... do they heck ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) Diane to the rescue. She found an American site that showed a roof venting system with a division in Europe, and blow me down if it isn’t made in Yorkshire - Beverley to be precise. 
So, did they sell in the UK - yes they do \/ \/ \/ back on track once more.

So now it’s back to rubbing down windows and more painting..........

That all folks. 

Regards...Dick.


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## kirkpoore1

Dick:

It's good to see you're trudging along safely. I don't think I expected to see whole-roof shrink wrap.

When you get your ridge vent, be sure to follow the instructions fully. I've had damage from leaks at ridge vents at two houses, the first due to a bad install (I think) and the second due to a bad repair of adjacent shingle damage. I'm sure current vents are better than the 1980's and 1990's versions, but I'm also sure they expect a better educated installer. They work, but I'm afraid I'm not a huge fan.

Kirk


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## Halo Jones

Dick,

It is really starting to look the business. So good that I have abadonned all want / hope of ever posting my rather paltry efforts! With the weather soon improving I bet you are going to make some extra good progress (I have been given orders to halt my workshop  and start on ripping up the family bathroom and get it replaced before baby "2"  comes along in May). Well done to you both. 

Halo


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## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

Isn’t it fascinating what two different pairs of eyes see. Now it will be forever a shrink wrapped roof :smile: but just imagine the heat tunnel that we had to build and pass it through :shock:

It’s understandable that once the ‘shrinkwrap’ is cut to fit the vent, that a weak point has been introduced. As you aren’t a fan, how would you approach it, or is it the whole concept that you don’t like?


Hello Halo,

Please don’t think that our offering is an ego trip. It isn’t about how grand or well built it is.
I know where all the duff bits of woodwork are - I choose not to photograph from that angle :wink: It’s about sharing the experience, and receiving and being able to give help that is the strength of this site and it’s members.
Whilst your build may be a more humble abode, I am sure that you would receive the same support and encouragement that we have been given. And believe me, it does make a difference.
Diane’s comment on the bathroom was ‘bathrooms are for wimps’ :smile: but that is because our children grew up in a building site that lasted from our second child’s birth right up to them leaving home - boy, am I a slow worker. But in my defence, we did have mortgage rates that climbed to 15%. We had to save up to buy each sheet of plasterboard (not joking).
Good luck with ‘Baby 2’ (it sounds like a film) and we hope that mum and baby will be fine.

Regards...Dick.


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## Mcluma

I'm curious to see the roof vent. do you have a picture of it. as i'm not sure #yet# as to why you need it

The vapour barier, what make/type is it, its not plastic is it?


----------



## kirkpoore1

Mcluma":38aiszt2 said:


> I'm curious to see the roof vent. do you have a picture of it. as i'm not sure #yet# as to why you need it
> 
> The vapour barier, what make/type is it, its not plastic is it?



Mcluma:
Here's a diagram of a ridge vent system:





In the winter, without the ridge venting, you can get ice dams and leaking. In the summer, your roof (and attic, if you have one) will get much hotter and tend to transmit that heat through your insulation into the living space.

Dick, as far as ridge vents go, they work. Having been in my attic during the summer to make repairs, however, I know it still gets _really_ hot in there when the sun is out (125+ F). I have come to believe they should be supplemented by gable end vents (possibly with a fan) or turbine vents like these:




Of course, since they have moving parts, turbine vents will probably wear out, may get damaged and become noisy, and (so I've heard) may need to be covered during the winter. But I really like the concept.

Kirk

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. "
--Yogi Berra


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## Cegidfa

Hi McLuma,

See below for the roof vent website. 

http://www.tapco-europe.com/ridgevents.htm

A back vent is recommended by all shingle manufacturers when a roof is insulated, as it helps to divert the very hot air generated on a sunny day (see Kirk’s summer roof temp). This heat would degrade the shingles and shorten their lifespan.

The v/b is manufactured by Ruberoid and is rather like a tightly knitted string vest, not plastic. That was Kirk pulling my leg.

Kirk,
If you go to the above website, the video shows an example of the ‘squeaky’ roof fans as a reason to use the plastic roof vent :smile:
When I decided to have round gable end windows, the idea was to make them opening so that a fan could be fitted to venturi out the hot air and some of the dust that escapes the filters. I have never done anything in my life the easy way - opening round windows - what a mug. Any normal person would make them square or rectangular......but hey, they do look good. 

Regards...Dick.


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## Mcluma

Thanks for that, had a look at the spec sheet and instruction manual. That should work for you. i never used these i used the normal vents


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## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

After many coats of paint we have finally fitted the first window. It took a while because there are two more faces to paint than the normal four, and they are quite large windows. 
Because it’s what we can get locally, and it has been recommended on this forum, we used Sadolin Superdec Satin - made for exterior and cladding. The disadvantage is that there is no primer, so it takes a while to cover fully. It is strange stuff to use and shows brushmarks for several coats - it is also recommended not to work it, as with normal paint; just get it on and leave it alone. I wonder how microporous it will be after four coats?

In best American tradition we have fitted a sill pan; not something one sees over here. The window is jacked up 5mm and the front will not be sealed. This allows any leakage to exit down the drainage plane. I feel that this is superior to the British method of caulking every gap to bug gery, as the caulk has a limited life and will then hold in any water that gets through the cracks. The American way accepts that it will leak at some point and diverts the water away safely.






We decided to opt for and easy life as the frames are ‘kin heavy, and marked the correct projection and fitted temporary battens to the sides. We also taped 3/5mm sill spacers in position. It was then a matter of lifting the frame into the hole and fixing, after adjusting the side to side clearance. I had fitted four flat metal brackets to the frame prior to installation, so it was easy to do the fixing. Another job that we thought would be hard but was, in fact, very easy. I think that I have worn a hole in my thinking cap :shock:

See finished job below with my ‘tame’ window fitter/bricklayer/trench digger and fabrication erector and... errr oh yes...wife.






That's all for now.......

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Warning. This update isn't fully wood orientated

Hi folks,
Time for a small update. The window installation is now complete. Just try managing triple glazing in a strong wind :shock:












We have been rather held up waiting for the shingles, but we are assured that we should have them this Thursday. However, we have been diverted by the leaching field refusing to drain, so we have been paddling in piddle (not the river in Dorset).
So, we hired a friend with a digger, and having worked out the area required after doing a soak test, set to digging a 170 foot trench 4 feet deep, ordering the piping and 16 tonnes of 16mm gravel.

The first step was to have the septic tank emptied and try to jet the pipe clear. This didn’t work as the hose wouldn’t go more than two feet before hitting what sounded like a bend?

Having dug one third of the run, it was thought expedient to fit the pipe and backfill as we go, just in case of a collapse. The gravel was tipped in and levelled and the pipes placed in position. Having cut the old exit pipe we found a 31/2 inch dia. by three inches long plug of wood jammed in the pipe :shock: This was the ‘bend‘ that we first thought that we had, before excavation showed otherwise. No wonder the system has never been very good. At this point I should have broken down in tears at the waste of money and effort. But, when a leaching field is in clay (which wouldn’t be allowed now) every little helps, so we used a tee instead of a bend and carried on. This way we can use both systems.
So, we set the fall on the three lengths of pipe and covered them with more gravel and then covered that with landscape fabric to stop the dirt mixing with the gravel. This process we repeated three more times.

The join.





The first three lengths.





The landscape fabric.





Filling in and clearing spare soil.





The finished job.





Apart from raking a fine tilth, seeding and rolling - and then collapsing.

Back to the workshop.
With luck, we should be able to start fitting the shingles on Thursday or Friday - another new experience.

Regards....Dick


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## Mcluma

Great update

Keep them coming =D>


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## wobblycogs

Staying off topic for a bit if I might...

I'm curious about your leaching field as I've not seen one before (I've heard people mention them though). I assume that you have a septic tank to catch solid waste and the pipe you've laid is to allow liquid waste to filter into the ground. I would have thought you'd want a large-ish soak away at the end of the pipe though to give the maximum area to get rid of waste, the picture seems to show it just stopping although on closer inspection I'm not sure you've laid all the pipe in that picture. I presume you also have to be careful about what you throw down the sink and toilets so that you don't kill of the microbes in the ground.


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## kirkpoore1

Ouch! How did a chunk of wood get into the septic tank in the first place? (Not a new form of Fe-stool dust extractor, I presume.) 

The windows look good. Are you still going to put some gable windows in?

It'll be a little too late to help you, but we're having our roof reshingled sometime in the next couple of weeks. I'll try to take pictures as they work and post them for comparison purposes.

Kirk


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## Charlie Woody

Windows look great!

Hope your shingles arrive on time and the weather stays dry and not too windy so you can start roofing.

Good luck.


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## Cegidfa

Hi Mcluma,

Glad that you enjoyed a slight diversion from the main theme. I thought that it might show that we were still sentient - just, and not popped our clogs :smile:

Hello W.C.....no pun intended :shock:...oh alright a little.

Yes we do have a septic tank. The pipe is perforated in the bottom third of the circle - all along the length. The liquid then seeps into about 12 tonnes of gravel (it felt like more by the time that I had levelled it all out - twice), and thence into the ‘soil’.
The end of the pipe is wrapped with some landscape fabric which I held on with a large cable tie. There is then an overshoot of gravel so that if any water gets that far, it has gravel to disperse into first, as per the rest of the run.

Yes we do have to be careful not to buy anything noxious as a toilet cleaner. We use a plant based product which allegedly is septic tank safe. That reminds me, I must buy a bio starter kit, as the tank has been emptied. The tradition in Arab countries is to slit a sheep’s throat and hoy it down the pit. I don’t think my neighbours would be impressed with me using one of their Hebridian sheep though.

This sight greeted us this morning on our back steps, and I have named it...

Rack of lamb?







They look cute now, but in several months they will look tasty......we have tried them.
It’s part of the deal; we let our neighbour use the field/grass for the sheep and horses, and we get a joint and sausages later, not forgetting a ready supply of horse manure.
And this year we will get the shearings for our daughter to spin into wool and then make something, which will be given back as a thank you for the wool.
I really hate the countryside - but someone has to live here.....just don’t try moving us back to town :wink:

Hi Kirk,

I am glad to see that your sense of humour is as warped as mine.
I can only assume that the lump of wood was placed there by the previous owners to try and limit the backflow of water when it has rained a lot and the river is high. The joy of having clay instead of soil.

Yes I will be making (or trying to) the round windows - yet another new thing to tackle....there’s life in the old dog yet. Who would have thought that retirement would be so much fun? I have even unwrapped the unfinished guitar that I started half a lifetime ago, and am busy designing the bridge, which is all it needs....the first task for the finished workshop.

I would be very interested in seeing the roofing process, even if it will be a bit late for guidance. I do have reasonable instructions though, it’s just a matter of getting the spread of shingles up each face to correspond with the two roof bends.

Hi Charlie,

Welcome to the fold, and thanks for the kind words. The weather looks set to be dry for a while, but we do suffer a lot from wind (Blazing Saddles raises its head again).
I will do the err...back side first, which is more shaded and has no holes (windows) to navigate round. Also, it gives me a chance to try and perfect the art before doing the view that is on show. I do have Mcluma’s standard to try and live up to, if you have ventured that far into this madness.

Mr P (pheasant} is knocking at the front door, I’m not sure if he is coming to dinner, or, he is dinner :shock: 

TTFN for now....Dick


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## wobblycogs

Thanks for the info, it all makes sense now


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## goldeneyedmonkey

Loving this thread. Well played Dick. Cheers _Dan.


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## Mcluma

My BIL just bought 120m2 of shingles, to redo the roof of the barn, and lots and lots of roofing nails :lol: :lol: :lol: yes he will be nailing them by hand (hammer)


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## Benchwayze

Dick, 

I'll believe it when I see it ! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Hat, coat, Door Zoooooooooooooooooom! ----------------------> 

Best of British with the build!

Regards John


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## Cegidfa

Hi wc,

Just had the bill for the pipe and gravel - the whole job came to £1200. But, as we don’t pay sewage rates, and the metered water is charged at ‘smallholding’ rates. We pay a lot less than we did in town, so the ‘payback’ won’t take that long in comparative terms.

Hello Dan (goldeneyedmonkey) 

Welcome to the fold, and I’m glad that you are enjoying it. It really is good to get feedback, and metaphorically ‘meeting’ everyone. Not to mention the boost to morale that it gives.
As Bob Hoskins used to say on an advert - ‘It’s good to talk.’

Hi Mcluma,

My arms feel tired just reading 120m2 of shingles. Our area amounts to about 42m2, albeit on three different planes, which complicates the layup. Will you be giving a hand - other than clapping applause? 

Hello John aka Benchwaze,

Once again, welcome, and thanks for the encouragement. As it happens 
<- - - - - - - - - - - - - !moooooooooooooooZ ,taoc ,taH is in order. 

The shingles arrived last Friday, but they forgot the nails.....doh! And it’s a 25 mile round trip to get some. So a spell of heavy duty gardening was embraced. Key tools being, heavy duty hedge trimmer, four tined pitchfork, 250 litre wheelbarrow and, you guessed it, a mattock. 
Now why don’t we see this sort of gardening on Gardener’s World? ......Wimps :smile:

A miracle has just happened. One of the people that works for Tudor Griffiths has just dropped the nails off on his way home (18.30). Anyone can make a mistake, that’s life. But they/he definitely went ‘the extra mile’ or several. Now that’s service. 

So, providing that it is dry, guess what I will be doing :smile:

TTFN for now....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello folks,

Over the last few days we have managed to clad the rear roof in shingles, apart from the upper bout. We will tackle that tomorrow, when are not so knackered. 

This is not an easy task on a Gambrel roof, as the the shingles have to be pre spaced vertically for each run. This can be done from one end of the roof with a number of cut off end pieces to reduce the weight, and sketchup helps speed this process. But, hanging tiles on a 60° incline is not fun. Trying to hold them to the line, and butted up to the previous one whilst nailing takes some effort. And then there’s holding to the line, and round the bend - even harder. We soon adopted banging the nails in position on a bench and carrying each shingle ready nailed; that really helps - ok, some fall off , but it makes a difficult job a lot less troublesome. See the progress below.






Sunday,

Carried on ‘round the bend’ but each tab had to have two blobs of Shingle Stick adhesive to hold it round the curve.






When first laying the shingles,we started with a row of half height shingles - that is, cut off the tabs. N.B. don’t be tempted to simply turn this first layer upside down, as this will put the glue strip in the wrong place and make the next two rows look bumpy. I have seen this posited on many sites as the way to go, by alleged pros....

Definition of Expert. x = the unknown factor, and spurt is a drip under pressure :shock:

We placed the starter row so that it overhangs the eves by 10mm, and the first full row the same. We also removed the half slit at the beginning and end of every row (our shingles have them at each end), so that there would be a straight cut edge at the sloping verge; but that’s just us being anal.
Beware, Iko shingles are not all the same length or height. This can throw the vertical lining up of the slots; also, the bottom edges of adjacent shingles can look stepped - because they are. Not what a failed perfectionist wants to see.
The other thing that we did was to nail above both sides of each slit to reinforce against the wind (see in the above pic).
The lower rows were reached by a raised platform. This made application quick and easy, but the rest to date were done from a ladder with a standoff, so that the shingles could be positioned and fixed under the ladder. The upper ones are being reached over the top of the ladder - a nice easy job. But, moving the ladder with a lump on it’s end, for each strip, is really tiring, but safe. How I will do the top few rows safely, I have no idea yet - short of kneeling on the roof. So the next missive might be from a hospital ward :wink:

Thats all for now......TTFN.....Dick.


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## billybuntus

Superb Job, keep up the excellent work.

I also liked the lining under the window cills, makes a lot of sense.


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## kirkpoore1

Dick, it looks like you've done an excellent job. 

If you don't have some knee pads, something like this:




you should go get some before doing the top section. When I was crawling around on a platform drywalling & painting my shop, they were the only things that kept me going.

Kirk


----------



## SeanG

awe and envy. If I wore a hat I'd be taking it off to you and your window fitter/bricklayer/trench digger and fabrication erector.


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## Cegidfa

Hello billybuntus, Kirk, and SeanG,

I know that I said some posts back, that the encouragement makes a difference, but I do want to be able to enter the shop once it is finished  :wink:

Billy, The Americans have been using timber frame for rather a long time, compared to us. And there is no denying that when they hit problems, they get inventive. The typical construction worker here tends to carry on repeating the mistakes. There are luckily, notable exceptions, such as those who belong to the AECB; these pioneers are pushing the Passivehaus system of air sealing and insulation that has been on the go for about thirty years now. But, it is new to Britain, as Kirk might say - go figure.

Hi Kirk,
Thanks for that, and yes I do have some kneepads, just not as posh as the ones that you showed. But they do the job. If you look at the pic below, you will see from the angle of the ladder, that they are essential, as I am kneeling on the ladder rungs and the metalwork of the standoff. After a lifetime of genuflecting in front of control panels, on metal flooring usually, I inevitably have arthritic knees, so it’s kneepads and fish oil capsules for me. 

Hi Sean,

Err....you forgot wife, and that’s not in the acronym sense :wink: but thanks for the kind words.
I take it that you don’t have the room for that which you would like?
I notice that you live in Bristol; so does our son Stefan, and, he is into code as well; albeit, a different area. He works for a startup called Jiva, but does music and now ‘visuals’ in his ‘spare’ time. Try his website http://stefangoodchild.com/ to see if it is of interest code wise. Let me know what you think.












Yesterday was spent on more anti lamb incursion activities, as we woke to them chewing their way through the garden again....grrrr. In the afternoon we ambled up to pay our friend Jimmy the digger for his err...latrine works. He generously offered us the loan of his heavy duty scaffolding and a large trailer to transport it. When I say heavy, I am not kidding. It nearly killed us erecting it. But, it has solved the ‘how do I finish the upper roof shingling’ problem, as you can see in the pics above. It will be invaluable on the front where we will have to fit windows and flashing, etc.
I will sign off now before I fall face down on the keyboard.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello folks,

Well, that’s another major part of the build achieved; the back roof is finished.
It’s amazing how ones confidence in walking on a roof is strengthened, when proper scaffolding is in position. To start with, the ladder to get onto the roof, from the scaffold, was being moved and tied off for each shingle. That soon went by the board and once there were enough shingles to walk on and get a grip, it stayed in one place.
However, I did forget to allow for gravity - and the ductility of aluminium. I had that sinking feeling when going across the ladder - the standoff is only supposed to operate in a vertical..ish mode. That was rectified by a cunning plan. Take a 300mm length of 50mm batten cut a vee in each end, and jam it between the stays....problem solved....what a dope.














There will be a short ‘interegnum’ before the next thrilling episode of Njárl’s Saga.

It is now time for some r and r ...allegedly, as we are going to Fromey land to visit the children/grandchildren. Whether that can be classified as rest and recuperation is a moot point.

TTFN....Dick...aka Grandad, for the next few days.


----------



## kirkpoore1

My aluminum ladder also...oscillates. I hate it when I have to go high, but it's the only way to do it.

Well, you're over a third done. Since you've worked out the bugs, I bet the other side will be easier.



> ...Fromey land ...



Huh? Ok, you've got me on that one. But have a good trip...

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
Fromey is one of the members of this forum who has commented on the build. He is called Fromey because that is where he lives...Frome in Somerset. Coincidentally, that is also where the grandchildren live - small world. 
Having handled the shingles in 20℃ and some, how on earth do you manage over there, where it gets considerably hotter? They turned decidedly droopy :shock:

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":12l7oxb8 said:


> Hi Kirk,
> Fromey is one of the members of this forum who has commented on the build. He is called Fromey because that is where he lives...Frome in Somerset. Coincidentally, that is also where the grandchildren live - small world.
> Having handled the shingles in 20℃ and some, how on earth do you manage over there, where it gets considerably hotter? They turned decidedly droopy :shock:
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Oh, good. I thought you were referring to fromage, i.e. cheese, and thus were going to Cheese-land aka Wisconsin--where you'd see people like this:





As far as floppy shingles, if it's hot I either carry them by one end (letting the other hang down), or in a pack of 20. Working in the evening or early morning helps too, though the latter tends to p*ss off the neighbors. (Back when I was getting my shop built, the guys putting up the siding started at 7 AM--on a Sunday. I was about to go outside and ask them why they started so early when a woman a few houses down the street came over and started balling them out. I decided to hide out in kitchen until she was done. )

Kirk


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## kirkpoore1

Dick:

I hope the rest of your roof is going well, and you're still working safely. I had my roof replaced on Friday, with the whole thing done in one day by 5 guys. Here's a few pictures:

Tear off:










The tool you really need for this kind of job:










Complete:










Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for the pics. It looks a nice job - in one day :shock: I'm suddenly feeling very old and decrepit  
But I suppose there were five of them. However, the one in the white tee shirt looks as if he should be at junior school....from the rear view.
Was it a 'family' company :wink:

You certainly have a different approach to health and safety in America; here, full scaffolding on both sides of the roof would have been required by H & S law, and that would have taken a fair part of the day to erect, not to mention the add on cost (not that everyone adheres to it). Mostly, it occurs on new builds where there is a site safety officer.

At the moment we are concentrating on the garden and veg plot whilst waiting for the kit to do the flooring. I decided that having shingled up to just under the roof windows, the manufacturing would go better with the table saw, so I sourced some T & G ply and non compressible insulation, not an easy task round here. The underfloor insulation is rated at 30 tonnes per square metre, so it will handle the incursions of rogue elephants that we have roaming these parts :wink:
And the cost of the insulated floating floor, £600 or $982 - yikes..... Workshop building isn't for the shallow pocketed.

As the wood has dried out, it has obviously shrunk. I didn't expect it to warp the Simpson Strong ties though. I had to remove all the nails, straighten the metal, and re-nail nearly all of them. They had distorted out from the wall about 1.5 inches.

I have fitted some Newfie glazing to the front doorway that gets the most weather, and a roll up unit on the end doorway - to keep out the weather and dust once the floor is down, and also to stop bees from entering, as they can't find the way out and die trying. It seems that bumble bees are pretty stupid, they can see through the plastic and don't look at the open end of the shed....hush your mouth, it's a workshop :wink:

Today's job is to cover the brick courses in a waterproof fabric, so that it won't dampen the back of the wallboard that will cover it.

That's all for now..TTFN....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Having fitted the vertical DPC over the bricks, I thought that we would be twidddling our thumbs for a few days waiting for the insulation and flooring. It turned up on Monday morning, just before lunch. So, thumbs untwiddled and set to laying, cutting and taping the insulation...only to run out of tape half way...doh. Went out this morn to buy some more tape and see if we could find some Ronseal grey floor paint (for wood). To my amazement we managed to get both items; no mean feat round here.

See below the before and after pics. I know that it was a sunny day, but it augurs well, given that the roof windows have two layers of green covering - isn’t it bright....result.






This shot was taken at about seven in the evening.






Tomorrow we will be laying the flooring as a floating floor, all joints glued and pushed tightly together with a 10mm gap all round the outside for expansion. Some of the boards look like they have been pre-used they are so grubby, so it will be out with the sander before painting.

That’s it for now........Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":2ppgqs28 said:


> Hi Kirk,
> 
> Thanks for the pics. It looks a nice job - in one day :shock: I'm suddenly feeling very old and decrepit
> But I suppose there were five of them. However, the one in the white tee shirt looks as if he should be at junior school....from the rear view.
> Was it a 'family' company :wink:...



I think the young one was about 18 or 19. I was just glad to see that none were illegal aliens, who do a lot of this kind of thing.



Cegidfa":2ppgqs28 said:


> At the moment we are concentrating on the garden and veg plot whilst waiting for the kit to do the flooring.



If these guys show up offering to protect the garden, I'd turn them down if I were you:







Cegidfa":2ppgqs28 said:


>


I don't think I've seen insulation above the slab but under the deck before. Interesting. How thick is it?

Anyway, it looks good, Dick. I hope it keeps going this smoothly.

Kirk
sitting in the near ruins of my house, where hardwood was laid down in the living room on Saturday, and tile is going into the kitchen tomorrow...


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
How on earth did you come across a photo like that. The van is an Austin A35, circa 1956 to 1962. I like the play of words - antipesto and s.w.a.t, and would definitely hire them, if I did that sort of thing :smile:

The insulation is 35mm, or 1 3/8 inches thick in old money. Obviously, in a house, the idea is to use the slab as a giant heat sink to even out the highs and lows, not to mention storing solar gain from the windows. But in a workshop situation that is not used every day :shock: it will make the floor warm feeling. There is nothing worse than standing on cold concrete for a long time; and dropping tools on a wooden floor is far more preferable. 

It will be interesting to see how the floor paint stands up, as the tin states, 'diamond hard' and Ronseal's bye word is 'does what it says on the tin.' But that's advertising for you. 
At this point, my daughter would be shouting 'zed (zee for you), not s.' Something that the founding fathers took with them, but we lost over the years. That takes me back to Sesame Street, which helped our pre-school children learn their letters, apart from correcting the zee that is. I saw an episode recently, and it looks a bit dated, but at the time it was revolutionary....and worked. The other thing was that they introduced people of other ethnic origins, quite radical in those times. I didn't see a black person until I started work, which, to you, probably sounds alien. But I loved the Blues (and still do), so most of my record collection was of black, blind, or just plain dead people. Very strange for a 16 year old - then.
I did manage to get to see the Rev. Gary Davis, at about 70..still a powerful personality, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee, and John Lee Hooker, in the flesh, and later a white bluesman - Spider John Koerner.

Is the indoor house renovation being done by you, or a contractor? Diane put her foot down in our old house when it came to the windows and central heating. She said that she, and the then, babies, wanted to be warm this winter not next. She had a point, I am not the speediest of contractors, and would never make any money; but I would have a lot of happy clients, where the quality was concerned. 

Ok, bit of wood diversion there, but what the heck. Tea break over, back on your heads, if you know the joke.

TTFN.....Dick.


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## goldeneyedmonkey

Cegidfa":1xrgs6hf said:


> Hi Kirk,
> How on earth did you come across a photo like that. The van is an Austin A35, circa 1956 to 1962. I like the play of words - antipesto and s.w.a.t, and would definitely hire them, if I did that sort of thing :smile:



That's the van that Wallace & Gromit (or Grumpit as the little one says) use. It's on their 'film' "curse of the were-rabbit"


----------



## wobblycogs

> Diane put her foot down in our old house when it came to the windows and central heating. She said that she, and the then, babies, wanted to be warm this winter not next. She had a point, I am not the speediest of contractors, and would never make any money; but I would have a lot of happy clients, where the quality was concerned.



Ah I know the feeling well. We went a whole winter without heating when we first moved into our current place. Boy was it cold. With the arrival of a little person last year we pulled our fingers out and got most of the radiators in. There's no way I'd ever live in a place that wasn't heated again, it's true misery.

Anyway, the workshop is looking amazing. I have a serious case of workshop envy. Going to have to push hard to get mine built this year (don't think it will be a self build though). Keep up the good work


----------



## kirkpoore1

goldeneyedmonkey":2vxr90p2 said:


> Cegidfa":2vxr90p2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Kirk,
> How on earth did you come across a photo like that. The van is an Austin A35, circa 1956 to 1962. I like the play of words - antipesto and s.w.a.t, and would definitely hire them, if I did that sort of thing :smile:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the van that Wallace & Gromit (or Grumpit as the little one says) use. It's on their 'film' "curse of the were-rabbit"
Click to expand...


Yep, these guys:








Cegidfa":2vxr90p2 said:


> But in a workshop situation that is not used every day it will make the floor warm feeling. There is nothing worse than standing on cold concrete for a long time; and dropping tools on a wooden floor is far more preferable.


Oh, you got that right. I've got the foam under the slab in my shop, and I'm sure it helps, but the wood over foam looks like a good idea. On the other hand, for some operations like moving machines around, concrete is preferable:





I'm using a contractor for everything, because (a) I've got more money than time, (b) they're better at it than I would be, and (c) I want it done before my daughter's high school graduation next week. Same guys who built my shop, and I don't mind keeping them employed. 

Advertising? Advertizing? Microsoft Word doesn't care, so why should I? 

My kids were both in daycare since my wife and I work, so they were rarely home for Sesame Street. Still, it's a much better show than the usual cartoon cr*p. I don't know how the zee/zed thing got going, nor the zero/nought business, but I do know we still use "mad" for "angry" while your use evolved to "crazy" during the 19th century.

I've got lots of dead people in my CD collection too, though many of them died of "rock 'n roll disease" rather than heroin like a good blues man would.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Yet another milestone - the floating floor is laid. It ‘just’ needs filling, sanding and painting.....doh.

The laying went very well, until we ended up with a 100mm slice to fill in. As we only just had enough ply, we cut the slices from the last sheet. On the last full sheets, we cut the tongue off and routed biscuit slots every 300mm. So as not to end up with any discrepancies with the fit , I routed a slot all the way along the strips. As the wood would get longer as it eased in, I also chamfered an angle on the bottom edge; which helped when fitting the strips in. Luckily, I had the metal tool for pulling in the strips; it would have been a pain without.






Hello w.c. 
There’s nothing like a ‘bit’ of poverty to toughen the sinews....or ...something.
There is always the Richard or Linda Thompson song, ‘I’d rather be rich after, than before.’ It worked for us, in a minor way, but we never had any great expectations.
Do try to curb the envy, it can be destructive, although I’m sure you are joking really. 
Don’t forget that I did my first 30 years of wood butchering with few tools and the 8’ x 9’ dining room as a workshop; so I know how you feel....it does get better...honest. It’s just that the person in the mirror inexplicably gets older than you feel. Then at about sixtyish, the body catches up and you realise that the old fart in the mirror is you :shock:

Hi Kirk,

Strewth, I didn’t realise that you cut 747s into slices in your spare time. That’s one hell of a bandsaw.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## wobblycogs

Worry not, envy is not really something I do except in jest. I've actually got a pretty good sized workshop at the moment, unfortunately it's a spare bedroom and I'm not convinced the 200 year old floor is as strong as it could be so there's no way I'm moving the big bits of kit up there. It's certainly a good excuse to improve the hand skills though.

I turned 35 a couple of months ago and I looked in the mirror and for the first time I thought "hmmm, not a young as I once was". I'll have to get the exercise bike I think.


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## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":n3gk4s1a said:


> Hi Kirk,
> 
> Strewth, I didn’t realise that you cut 747s into slices in your spare time. That’s one hell of a bandsaw.
> 
> Regards....Dick.




You know, Dick, I could set you up with a big bandsaw for under $300. There's are 27" and 38" saws on OWWM.org right now. And once you try a big saw, you'll realize just how much of a toy a 14" saw is. OK, shipping might raise the price a wee bit. And you'll want to get a motor locally ( 3hp ought to do). But we already know you think big. You can do it!

Kirk
Enabler...


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello folks,
On returning to the workshop after a coffee break, I found a racing pigeon standing on the cast iron TS table. Did he poop...of course he did; despite running back to the house for kitchen roll, the afore mentioned guano had eaten through the protective coating and stained the iron....and I haven’t turned it on yet..do’h. 

The new supervisor.





The floor has now had two coats of Ronseal diamond hard floor paint. It covers very well and is easy to use...so...yes...it does what it says on the tin. 

Having let it harden for two days, we started moving in the machinery that I will need to make the windows; and finally setting it up.
Trying to get the sliding table on the TS 200c level and rolling smoothly was a right pain. As one end is made level, the setting of the other throws off the first setting. UK workshop to the rescue.... I found Martingchapman’s how to setup a TS 200c. Martin, you have my undying thanks for saving us hours of frustration.






The next step was to fit the new Tuffsaw blade to the BS, and do a trial run with some spare timber.
I have never made a bridle joint before, and this is my first time cutting 100 x 50 par. The blade performed as everyone before has said; absolutely first class (thank you Ian, a vey nice man to do business with). See the first two basic frames below.






So, tomorrow will be making the last two frames, and then it will be cutting the space for the IGU, and the rebate where the window sits through the roof ply.

We have had another casualty after the wind. Our four trunked Cotinus which was about twelve feet tall, is now redesignated as Cotinus Horizontalis. Oh well, more firewood for next year. 

Hi Kirk.. Thanks for the offer, but as you can see, I already have a bandsaw. Ok, a toy one by your standard. Oh yes, the fairly cheap flooring was just that. As I moved the bandsaw and the TS, the wheels rolled tracks into it. But, the floor paint didn’t crack...result.

That's all folks.....Dick.


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## goldeneyedmonkey

...wish I'd used that floor paint. Mine was non-slip. I may as well have been wearing 80 grit abrasive on the soles of my shoes! Never again, got some anti-fatigue matting to go over it all now though. So happy days.

'shop's looking great Dick, unlucky about the pigeon! 

Ta. _Dan


----------



## Charlie Woody

That Dust Extractor must be amazing ....... I can't see a speck of dust anywhere!! Most unlike my workshop which seems to be covered in dust!

Seriously though your workshop is looking great .. well done!


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## Mcluma

when you paint the floor did you paint over the tape?


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## Dibs-h

Mcluma":2sgzfzwx said:


> when you paint the floor did you paint over the tape?



What tape? Did I miss something?

Dibs


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## bosshogg

Hi Dick...bosshogg here, you are obviously a determined couple to whom I take my hat off to_

What you are building is similar, in appearance only may I add, to what we refer to in the trade as a convex mansard roof. the idea of a mansard roof, is to extend the roof space into usable space by maximising the available width, height etc.
Looking at Diane s dwg. there is an awful lot of bracing timber in between all the rafters, purlings, posts et al. If, and I indeed am not criticising your thoughts so far, but if you wish to simplify things for your own build-ability you may want too take a look at this http://www.coastalcontractor.net/article/163.html It's not the only advise out there, but I chose it because it's very clear and easy to follow...bosshogg  



> You can't fix a problem using the same thinking that created it..._A.E._


 8)


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Today, I managed to make the last two frames, and get all the IGU rebates milled. It dawned on me, after many passes over the router table, that the through milled parts could have been cut in two passes on the tablesaw. I will get the hang of this woodwork lark one day....
It’s quite a while since I have done any routing, and I haven’t done stopped milling, where the wood is milled in from both ends, for even longer. Botty pouting time :shock: Typically, I didn’t hold one piece tight enough, and it pulled forward to the end, but that’s what filler was invented for....

I thought that someone might be interested in a shot of the, now, over thirty year old router and table. The table and mount is from Veritas, and the large grey lump is an Elu MOF 177E. I have since found that it is a highly desirable bit of kit. All I can say is that it never lets me down, never slows under load, and whilst heavy to use freehand it is a joy, as the weight makes for great stability; unlike the pile of rubbish that is my small router by Trend. I had to get two before I got one that worked reasonably well.











Hello Dan (goldeneyedmonkey),
The Ronseal is non slip too,but it doesn’t feel abrasive. I wonder how it works? What did you use, so others can avoid it?

Hello Charlie (Woody),
Joking aside,the DE is quite good on the bandsaw, if I use both motors. A minimal amount is left in the upper and lower chambers, and a small amount at the lower guides - I feel a mod coming on when the build is finished. The blade picked up a coating of resin and dust so I tried the gum remover used on the hedgetrimmer. It worked, but was slow to desolve, so I tried white spirit - that worked a treat.

Hello McLuma,
Would you care to clarify what you mean about the tape?

Hi Dibs,
Glad you are still interested, you are getting on on your build, but still so far to go in the greater scheme of things. What a bummer, having to remove the door  

Hello Boss,
I have been following your guidance of Markymark's build with interest, and thanks for the kind words. Without being able to rotate the the drawing, it is hard to see clearly. There are only four collar beams holding the roof in check. The link that you thoughtfully provided is one that I have been to when doing the research for this build. The reason that I didn’t use that method was down to the height being limited to 4m. As you are aware, for a Gambrel roof to look proportionate, and not ‘squashed’ it needs height that I didn’t have; therefore the compromise was in the wall height. This would have made manoeuvring sheets and long timber a right pain, so I opted for collar beams to gain the clearance. 
I don’t intend to use the roof for storage, as I like the feel of a cathedral roof. There is also the advantage that the heat gradient will be longer, so won’t be oppressive in the summer, as it would with a pent roof. Having said that, on the hot days that we have had recently, I was actually cold; so the insulation is working already. I found it interesting that no comments were made about putting it on the outside, which is rare in the UK (for a shed).
As a matter of historic accuracy, I think that Francois Mansart would argue about your definition of the type of roof :wink:
Regards....Dick.


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## goldeneyedmonkey

'International Anti-Slip Floor Paint' was the offender. I've since covered it in nti-fatigue matts so it's not visible for the most part. Oh well. . Build's lookin great mate.


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## Dibs-h

Dick - did the window reveals yesterday and doing the door later this afternoon and start the plastering tomorrow morning. Hopefully the garage\basement will go quicker as there are no trusses to make, etc. Should be more industrial in it's construction.

Wasn't too happy taking the door off - but what can you do.

Your floor - did you sand and fill it prior to sealing? What did you fill it with? Looking good!

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,
I did sand the whole floor, but where the t and g joints were a bit high, I planed them level first (what a labour of love). I used Cuprinol all purpose wood filler for the small gaps and holes (it comes in a variety of colours - I used white). This stuff is allegedly flexible and ok for exterior and interior use. I used an electric sander over all the joins and filled areas, as it goes off quite hard. It seems to be good stuff, but it pays to be not too liberal with it; a damp pallet knife after a little while smooths out any excess, which makes sanding easier....Polyfilla it's not. I rollered the paint on and it is very good tempered stuff. The website has a calculator to gauge how many tins one requires. It went to the wire, but it did the job, just, but the flooring was very absorbent. I just wish that I could have got the same board as used on the roof, in t and g, as that was a lot tougher. I could have biscuited it, but what a pain in the arsch that would have been (excuse my German, but it knackers the swearchecker) :smile:

By the time that you get the next phase completed, I think that we should all club together and get you a medal, for heroic single handed construction :wink: Good luck with the plastering, it's the one thing that I can't do reasonably well.

Best wishes....Dick.


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## Markymark

Dick

This looks really great and sadly puts my mere attempt to shame you really are talented and determined. The roof looks great and I bet the extra space it gives you is worth the extra work. The shingles look great too and this now sets a standard for my build also. Your build looks good enough to live in and a great place to while away the winter months on your projects. 

May be one day I will be able to build something so grand. For now its onwards with my megere design :lol: 

Take Care.

P.S. What did you use as a membrane on the roof?
I am using the rest of my roll of Tyvex Housewrap which I know is not designed for roof use but at £80 a roll I felt loathed to use only 28metres on my build.

Mark


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## Mcluma

I had it wrong about the tape, it was the subfloor that ou taped together (homer)


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## Cegidfa

Hi Mark,

 Thanks for the kind words. Your ‘attempt’ is neither ‘mere,meagre or ‘shaming,’ just a different scale. For over 30 years we lived in a mid terrace with a 30’ x 15’ garden; no real room for anything....but life proved kind :smile:

The membrane that we used was Rubershield Lite, which had one endearing characteristic...it was cheaper than the pukka bituminous stuff that should be used under shingles. It looked horrible stuff to use, so we copped out. Only time will tell if we have made a balls up...err, technical error. The only real difference that I can see regarding your use of Tyvek Housewrap is that it is a lighter gauge than the official roof stuff. It is still breathable..perhaps, if you have enough, use two layers to make up for the possible fragility? But I don’t blame you for not wanting to waste Tyvek, as it is pricy.

Hi Mcluma,

Had a bad day then :smile: Don’t worry, you’re not alone :wink:

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello folks,

I was beginning to think that I would never get to this point; what with shaping the windows and then three coats of paint, rubbing down, and a week off with friends visiting.
See the finished products below, prior to installing. They are held in with neutral curing low modulus silicone, not the cheaper aceytoxy stuff that reeks of vinegar.







Warning! If anyone is contemplating using Sadolin Superdec paint.....DON”T.
This was recommended on this forum a while back, but since then, it has been taken over by Crown, instead of Akzo Nobel. It is now officially ‘rubbish’ (a technical paint term), and very thin rubbish at that. N.B. rubbish is not the word I used...what a diplomatic program this is. Where two or three coats should have done, it would probably take six to get a decent cover. I wondered if I had an isolated case until a web search was done for ‘Superdec problems.’ This raised professional painters fora, and they were less than happy. Even worse was the treatment by Crown, who suggested they send them the 2.5 litre cans...and no they didn’t have a problem. Can you imagine the cost, and waste of time to a busy tradesman?

So I used Akzo Nobel’s Rubbol primer and top coat; first class stuff. I bought it from a Dulux centre, and asked about the Crown problem. They said that if there was ever a problem, that some of the offending paint should be put on a piece of paper and taken back to the shop, who would send it off to the manufacturer. What a different approach. Rant over.

It’s high time for an update on the costs.

Flooring and insulation (30mm) £618
Floor paint £50
Window wood £44
DG units ....four off £115
Rubbol primer and t/coat £48....2 off 1litre tins
Abortive Superdec £69 ....2 off 2.5 litre tins...used on the main windows and fascias, many, many times.
Plastic angle £57 50 x 50 x 2mm ..3 off 5m lengths. This will cover the window flashing and finish the face.

Total cost to date.....£5000.45p. :shock:

And I still have to insulate the roof and clad the whole inside...oh yes, and buy 600m of feather edging and paint it....glug. Not to mention two double doors with dg panels and ‘Spaniel’ locking.
I’m off to lay down in a dark room........and to rub it in, I became a pensioner today.

Regards...Dick.


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## xy mosian

Congratulations on reaching that milestone, Hurray, Hurray, Hurray etc.. The workshop should make up for the lack of a cake, even though you have made it yourself. Who said retirement is a time for relaxation, it seems to me to be the last thing you're going to be doing, for a little while at least.

xy


----------



## Dibs-h

Rubol - good stuff. For the door, I wanted a topcoat the same colour as the primer (grey) and Akzo Nobel tech helpline were really helpful supplying the colour code, so the paint suppliers could mix it up. I get mine locally for just under £20 per Litre delivered. Sprays very well with a HVLP. Did my door and windows with it. Not to mention the fascias and bargeboards. Your windows look spanking.

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello folks,
I have managed the ‘first fit’ on one of the roof windows today.
However, all the other cut lines are marked on the liner, so if it is dry tomorrow, I might manage a few more.

Instead of the usual tucking into the hole, of the roof fabric (in a sloping roof situation, that is). I have opted to make the fabric part of the weatherproofing system. As you will be aware by now, I am not one to obediently follow ‘the rules’.....unless they make good sense :shock:

So, the order of events was as follows.
First....Cut the fabric to the size of the hole.The spare, to wrap up the side of the window as a first layer ‘flashing’ will be from the fact that the window fits with overlap onto the roof ply. See photo below. 






Second ....Make sure that the window will fit in the hole, and sit upright. I found that when I had cut out the hole, that I didn’t cut close enough to the frame edge on the right hand edge and top. Out with the trusty rasp to fettle the ply back; clean up and try again - good fit this time.
Third....Use silicone mastic all round the overlap area of ply, and lay in the window. Fit a slim wedge from the inside to hold the window vertical.
Fourth....Cut two L shaped pieces of fabric to insert under the corners where I had cut the 45 degree angle and mastic all round the window/roof joint. The edges of the insert can be raised up a bit as there is some give in the fabric. Mastic over the top and lay the roof fabric in place. Pump more mastic along the window where the fabric ends, so that it doesn’t flap about. See the finished job below. I do hope that all that makes sense; it took longer to describe than to actually do.






Hello xy,
Thanks for the congrats, you were right, but how did you know that I didn’t have cake? :wink:
You were also correct about retirement being a time to relax......not. If we sit down for more than a few hours, we get restless and want to do something. When we come back from a holiday we usually need a rest. A typical example was walking round Pompeii, which is massive, and then hiking up Vesuvio.

Just in case you thought that we were slacking :shock: whilst the glazing mastic was curing....
We had a large multi branched damson split in the wind and crash down in what was the shaded area...ho hum.
















It took us two days to cut off and shred the smaller branches, and then fire up Charlie chainsaw (if you remember Kenny Everit that is) to sever the, now, firewood. I know how to give a girl a good time......

Hi Dibs,
'Spanking windows' is this a new form of BDSM :lol: Thanks for the kind words though. Could I pick your brains on the spraying front, please?
I would like to try spraying, as I hate painting; what would you recommend as a first piece of kit? You mentioned HVLP, is that the best method for general use? I have noticed that there seem to be two methods - airless and pressurized, does any one method work better? I would appreciate any guidance that you could give.......P.S. I won't be spraying cars....just woodwork orientated stuff. Thanks in advance.

TTFN for now....Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, I think it's still looking great. The windows came out very well, and you can't be too careful when preventing leaks. I bet you're really tired of that green roof by now.

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

Dick

Pressurised HVLP is what you want. The kind that comes with a small turbine - not the the kind that where the gun plugs into a normal compressor. Something like an Earlex HV5000 - http://www.earlex.co.uk/Concepts/Profes ... 0Home.html or an Apollo 1500 (the successor to the 700 or 800). Or an older 700 or 800 is fine. I have the one of them (700 I think) and it's got plenty of grunt! Steve Maskery is selling his - for-sale-apollo-800-professional-hvlp-system-t51916.html. Worth the money!

Rubbol needs to be thinned down about 20%. I used the water based versions of Rubbol Satura and it sprayed perfectly. I also used the non-water based one for my workshop door thinning the paint down by about 20% with white spirit (IIRC) and it came out awesome. Here's a picture - 






Admittedly I've sprayed cars in the past - so my requirements were somewhat anal! 

For the paint get some of these -






Saves getting the gun tip blocked up and some plastic mixing cups which make thinning it so much easier-






There should be a local Autopaint franchise - which sells the filters and a pack of 50 cups for < £20. If you struggle - let me know and I can get you some from my local place and post them put. I know 50 cups sounds a lot, but they are so handy! DAMHIK!

HVLP is perfect for trim, windows & doors - not to mention finishing other "furniture" projects.

I also have a Wagner airless sprayer - where the pump squeezes paint out of the gun, but these are really best suited to larger areas such as walls. I'm getting some matt emulsion for my walls and will be using the airless sprayer rather than paint by brush\roller. Airless sprayers aren't cheap - quite a few 100 quid, but keep an eye out on the Bay for ones by manufacturers such as Wagner or Graco. Again £500+, but I have the whole house to paint at some point, so will pay for itself.

HIH

Dibs

p.s. I'll post some piccies when I paint my walls\ceiling so you'll get an idea of how good they are.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
All the roof windows are now fitted; so tomorrow I can carry on with the shingle and flashing fitting.
Typically, one window hole was very tight, and would not allow the window to be set dead vertical and I could not bring myself to plane the sides and repaint. So in the words of the Beatles....Let it be, let it be..........
So, what happened to the rods that I made so that this wouldn’t happen  
With my memory, I probably forgot to check 






The light level inside now is definitely better; and when the walls and roof are painted white, the reflections will improve it.






Hi Kirk,
Glad that you approve, what do you mean, tired of the green roof......it’s lovely......on a dark night :smile: At least one side of the roof is done, so once the window flashing and tiling is completed I can have a ceremonial unveiling....closely followed by a Viking funeral :shock: 

Hello Dibs,
Thanks for the advice and offered help. Do I take it that I would dilute the paint and then filter it? The door looks superb; did you use the primer that goes with the Satura, and if so, how many coats of each achieved that sort of quality finish? Thanks in advance.

TTFN....Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":3njboi3l said:


> Hello Dibs,
> Thanks for the advice and offered help. Do I take it that I would dilute the paint and then filter it? The door looks superb; did you use the primer that goes with the Satura, and if so, how many coats of each achieved that sort of quality finish? Thanks in advance.
> 
> TTFN....Dick.



Looking good Dick.

Yes - pour the required paint into the cup, thin it by about 20%, mix it, pop the filter in\over the gun's paint cup and pour into the filter. For the door - I used the primer that goes with the Rubbol, thinned by about 20% with white spirit. As I painted the door in the shed (hung up from one of the trusses) ventilation wasn't an issue as the door was fitted. :mrgreen: 

Door - probbaly about 3 coats of primer, flatted most of the 1st 2 off with a ROS, and then just wiped the final one down with a Scotchbrite pad. On with the top coat - lightly ROS'ing the 1st coat, & Scotchbriting the 2nd coat, before the final coat. With a HVL setup, multiple light coats are infinitely better than less thicker coats. For the door - about 1L of each was enough.

HIH

Dibs

p.s. fired up the airless sprayer - took a while to get it going as I'd left it dry as opposed to primed with oil. Stuck the tube in some matt emulsion and propped up a scrap piece of plasterboard outside and what can I say - other than awesome!! Certainly should make life so much easier painting the walls & ceiling. I'll put some piccies when I paint later this week.


----------



## xy mosian

Dick, Cake? I reconned if you'd had cake there would be gloating, pictures or a piece each :lol: . Seriously though the workshop is looking better then some places I've stayed in, all be it very briefly. It will truly be a pleasure to spend time in there.

xy


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## skeetoids

Hi,

I have been following this thread with the greatest of interest and find the whole process inspiring.

However, as a Woodturner I am apalled at your phrase 'Fire Wood' for some freshly felled wood (with the aid of Charlie Chainsaw) :lol: 

Seriously, what a wonderful project. 

Have you given any thought to adapting this WIP into a book. I know the project isn't complete but it would be such a wonderful treat to all those who have shown such interest so far and quite a few others besides, I am sure.

Aw the best for a safe and enjoyable comletion,

Lee.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

At last, a ‘not green’ roof :smile: :smile: :smile:
It has either been too hot to fix the shingles, or wet...how frustrating is that.
A word of warning to anyone using shingles....don’t walk or even, just stand on them when it is hot. They go squidgy and are easily damaged.
Today we started fitting the roof vent, not forgetting to cut out the breather membrane as we went along :smile: 
It comes in four foot lengths that slot together, so I made a gauge, to help keep it in line.
The instructions recommend starting 50mm in from each end, so I cut a saddle piece of shingle to cover over the end of the roof, the depth of the gap and the width of the vent, stuck on with Iko stickall. I will then fabricate an end piece to fit in the end of the vent so that no plastic shows.
Diane had the unenviable job of making a template and cutting about seventy tabs for placing on top of the vent to improve the appearance (well, we can’t offend the many passing helicopter pilots) . We will also have to cut long strips to go under these to extend the width. This wide vent should be used with three tab shingles, they would fit in one go. But mr belt/braces and several pieces of string, err..me, bought the wide vent to give more protection.

The other job is to fit flashing round the windows and cover this with thin right angled white plastic. This will hide some of the flashing and protect the paintwork and the mastic, holding the windows in, it gets very hot up there, as we know to our cost.






Thanks for the info Dibs, look forward to the pics.

Hello xy, 

Had I actually had a cake, I would have e-mailed you some of course :smile:
Thanks for the complement....I will now have to make the double doors wider........

Hello skeetoid,

I am glad hat you are enjoying the project. I did wonder at the start whether to even write it up, but we have had so much encouragement and fun, that I am really glad that I did.
Had I known that woodturners were watching, I would not have used such foul, heinous language, as (cover your eyes) firewood :wink: 

I hadn’t given any thought to adapting this load of old tosh into a book. Did you mean, with all the comments by fellow woodaholics? Mind you, if you could see the list of things that we have, or, would like to do to the house and garden.......We haven’t enough life left at the rate we work at.

Regards...Dick.


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## Charlie Woody

Dick
This is looking really good....you are clearly a very skilled worker. Well done!


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## kirkpoore1

Looks great, Dick. By the way, they actually make specially shaped shingles for the top of the ridge vent. But don't tell your wife that--she won't want to know.

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Hello Charlie,

Thanks for the kind words. The trouble is, I don’t feel like a skilled worker,
more like a failed perfectionist : Ok, I’m happy with the roof, but the rebating of the windows was not good....but it doesn’t show. I have a long way to go to learn how to use a table saw, and router table(again). It’s not just a matter of shoving wood through the blade. However, I was chuffed to bits with the bridle joints from the bandsaw......So much to learn, so little time.
But, the encouragement is very welcome, and effective. It boosts the sometimes flagging morale on a long job like this....It’s a year in the building now :shock:

Hello Kirk,

Thought that you would be glad to see the back of the jolly green turtle :smile:

As it happens, the special shaped shingles aren’t available in the UK 
All the manufacturers advise that which we are doing...i.e. cut your own. But Diane did laugh at your suggestion anyway...she’s a game girl.

To make up for the lack of width, we have cut long straight strips and stuck them down the sides. The shaped shingle will then sit over these. We could have bought a few packs of three tab shingles and they would have done the job, but we have two packs of four tab left over....waste not, want not, or, get inventive...so we did :smile:

Regards...Dick.


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## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

In between showers of rain and sun, I found time to finish the roof vent shingling.
The first pic shows how we overcame the too wide vent.






The second shows the finished article.





And this shows a side view.





All that is left to do on the roof now is is to fit the flashing to the windows and then cover it with the white angled plastic. We can then take down the scaffolding and erect it at the ends for the fitting of the barge boards.

That’s all from one knackered puppy.....Dick.


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## WoodnDesign

Hi, Dick & Diane, It's taken me almost as long to read up on what you've been doing, as it has the build todate... :lol: ... all the links and rabbit trails, I've learnt from it all.

It has been more than interesting and that's not just the build, but the highs' with removing the chimney, the lows' the trench and wet feet.. #-o .... to the cold and the very cold an no boiler... thankfully it has only been the damson that has fallen to the wind, for until you had now finished the roof anything could of happened.... could have seen you pass over the Midlands here.

It's been at times a wet build and still is, I now see your prepared.. with the Kayak... evans' above you or any of us should have that much rain.. it's hoped we can all have warm dry weather at this time.

Will now be watching to keep up todate with the next and final stages... Thank you both for an informative build and good read (a book.. 8) ...) and to everyone, who has put forward ideas and advice.. well done all.. =D> ... ccasion5: ...

David


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## Cegidfa

Hello David,

Welcome to the ‘madness’ that is our build. When I called the post, ‘with a difference’ I didn’t realise that it would meander through our daily life. It was meant to be loosely modelled on Dibs’ format (my superhero :wink, but, whilst I know that we are ‘technically’ meant to stay ‘on post’, patently, the Stasi that invigilate the posts use a very light touch...... joking, honest..Mike.C, Noel, CHJ :smile: 

I have posted the off topic subjects partly to explain why there have been no updates, and also because I thought that they may be of interest and help, that being the raison d’etre of this forum. They do seem to have attracted interest, so my paradigm must be working.
The canoe came with the house, so we have called it ‘the escape pod’ as the house flooded once in 2000 - only a foot deep. The only drawback is that it is a single seater :smile:

We are only part of the fun, as it is the other contributors that have livened it up. 
There is help, advice, leg pulling - usually Kirk :wink: and general morale boosting.
What more could one ask for. It might also spur someone on to build something, on the premise that if we two old farts can do it, anyone can :smile:
I am reminded of Mcluma’s strap line ‘Everything can be achieved if you put your mind to it.’

Best wishes... Dick and the ‘herself’ 

PS. You have reminded me that I never showed the finished roof without scaffolding, so, for all the ‘meanderers’.......


----------



## WoodnDesign

Hi Dick, Again this has been a very inspiring read.. other that putting down the base, my wooden workshop was the best at 12' x 10' we could find to buy..  ... so to see your build.. I look forward to hearing as to what you do with the Electics.. as I'm still without a power supply to mine, the biggest cost will be the 10m armoured cable.. but then I think it is more like I'm being charged for the whole drum, but they'll only use 10 yards.. had that once, paid for hundreds of boxes of screws.. few got used.. the carpenter cleared the lot when he left.. :x ...

Nice job the house roof as the workshop, well waterproofed.. need to look back as to when the scaffold was up, because it most have been a problem with that end outhouse or was the roof strong enough to take a board with the pole on that.

We must get back to the topic... of the build.. on wards .... and round with the paint brush and cladding.. =D> ..... Eyes down I see a full house.. well workshop..

David


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

We have just completed the window flashing.....and we never want to do it again :shock:
Standing on the scaffold with one foot on a piece of insulation(on the kick out) and trying to reach across is no joke. It then dawned that we had allowed the shingles over the top of the window to coalesce on the glue line...bad move. The first window was lifted carefully with a pallet knife and white spirit, this marked the bend line a bit, and was a pig to fit the top flashing. So next time we used the very little, grey cells, and a hair drier. It worked well. if messy.
We fitted the bottom flashing first. This entailed laying out on the scaff. to get to it...what a pig. So we did all the bottoms first, then at least we could stand up.

The sides were next; this time we drew lines with a chinagraph pencil, rather than just marks every so often. The backing tape was removed and replaced with about 12mm of goo showing. It was still a ....... to fit, as it was very flexible. We also had to allow enough for the step of each shingle as it was pressed to the line. The top was not too bad to do, as the shingles had been lifted out of the way. So the tops were remasticed, and pressed back down, only to find that we hadn’t allowed for the extra thickness of the flashing. So the tabs didn’t sit flush.....grrrr. So, lift the tabs and insert a length of wood so that we can knife off sufficient shingle. We ended up looking like something out of a Tom and Jerry cartoon, with each slice, goop, and press, we became ‘one’ with the asphalt. I’m not saying that we were clarted in sticky black stuff, but I wouldn’t have picked that moment to pick my nose or scratch my itchy head.....Do’h. 

Tomorrow, we will be mostly cutting, and maybe bending 50 x 50 x2mm white plastic angle, to cover the sides and front of the windows. Yet another chance to make an almighty c..k up. Watch this space.

Regards, two tired puppies....again.






It has just dawned on me, that if I click on a picture, it get larger, in a new screen.
Not a lot gets past me.........


----------



## kirkpoore1

Hey Dick:

I was over on the OWWM.org site and saw a tour posted of the Purdue University Wood Research Lab, in Lafayette, Indiana. The guy posting it is the manager of the lab. I saw this picture, and immediately thought of you:



Panda Dan":2cuyvvdf said:


> This is our "medieval torture chamber". Here we cyclicly test models and furniture for fatigue failures. The procedures for doing this were modeled after the same kind of tests that were developed for aircraft frames.



The full thread is here: http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=98504&start=0

(For those of you who haven't heard of it, Purdue University is one of the premier engineering schools in the United States. Both of my in-laws graduated from there with mechanical engineering degrees after they returned from WWII. My mother-in-law was one of only two women in her class.)

Bummer about the flashing around your windows. I bet that's a mistake you only make once--unfortunately, you won't be able to apply the learning experience to anything in the future.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Yet another milestone reached, the windows are finished (outside).
Because of the construction method, a cover had to be made to fit over the flashing and also cover the window setting mastic, and the superspacers (holding the DG apart).
We opted for 50 x 50 x 2mm PVCu. As we didn’t need 50mm down the sides, we used the trusty bandsaw to rip the sides down to 20mm - cleaning up the cut edge with sandpaper.
Now, how to join it together, it being so thin? Everbuild Mitrefast to the rescue. It was recommended by a chap at Boys and Boden, who used to make stairs - they used it to glue on the nosings...I think. It is essentially, cyanoacrylate with a spray. One part is sprayed, and the glue applied to the other....it works.
The mitres were cut on the ancient Nobex..fully manually :smile: another good bit of kit.
A large square of ply was fitted with a right angle of ..more strip ply; and away we went.
Slide the two mitres into the corner for the best fit, spray the plastic, we did both edges, reckoning that it was performing a similar function to solvent weld pipe cleaner; hold for ten seconds...voila - a joint. Err, apart from the fact that we had glued the angle to the ply. Well, it was for glueing wood. As Benny Hill once said in a sketch...PLAN AHE (when writing on a wall). Next joint achieved, but this time we used the plastic offcuts under the angle ...pulled out of the glue area of course 

Having completed the four frames, it was felt that a small amount of support was needed, as the joint was good, but, any flexing would break it (we did some test runs with small parts and destruction tested them, in best engineering practice). Some white mastic was put in the corners and across the mitre. Just a smidge’, as we wanted the frames to lay as close to the window as poss. It seemed to help. See finished frames below. 







Not wanting to form a water trap when fixing the frames, we ran mastic (clear silicone) round the inside part of the frame (i.e. adjacent to the glass). This would both hold the frame and form a water barrier at the edges. Any future leak would be able to run down under the frame and out to the roof, with warm weather drying off the inside. Well, that’s the theory.
See below a close up, and then the whole roof.










You may have noticed that the flashing looks gold in colour - it said 'grey' on the label.....hmmmm.
In the meantime, we have been trying to insulate the roof. I say try: it took us four hours to make a copy on a small piece of insulation, of that required to fit round all the parts that comprise a Gambrel roof. I will explain with pics in a future ‘episode’.

Another stage has also been reached, the scaff. can finally come down....hurrah.

Hi Kirk,
Thanks for the link.....and thinking of me. So when your mother in law tells you that something you want to make or do won't work, you take notice...right :smile:


----------



## Charlie Woody

Well done - nice window job. Guess you will be pleased to get the scaffolding so that you can enjoy an uninterrupted view of the lovely job you have done on the roof.

Look forward to the insulation episode.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

So, to the beginning of the insulating saga, just for Charlie Woodie  .
We were going to buy our sheet insulation from a local chap who sold seconds, at around £10 per large sheet. But the downturn in housebuilding has seen the factories cut their production to the point that he had nothing when we needed it.
We had run out of storage space some time ago, so we couldn’t get it earlier, and having it outside with a tarp would be madness with our wind. If only I had a worshop.........
Thus, the insulation had to be bought at the usual price :evil: £416 :evil:

Ok, but it was 100mm thick....nowt but the best for the house....oops, workshop 

What silly person wanted a Gambrel roof...ah, this one. See below some of what we have had to contend with.






We thought that it would be politic to do a dry run with an old offcut, as the stuff was like gold dust. Below is a left side, with the required cutouts.






As you can see, it isn’t just a matter of cutting nice simple rectangles, and every foot has to be cut at 30°.

Below are the left and right cutouts for the end spaces. This piece was so tricky that once shaped, it had to be cut in half vertically so that they could be fitted.






If you look at this end space you will see why.






Cutting PIR is the most awful experience, the dust is vile. Also, trying to cut 8 x 4 slabs 100mm thick accurately is no joke. I can follow a line with no problem, but vertically as well...no chance. Bring on the track saw, the vacuum will remove the dust, and cuts will be vertical....Oh no they won’t. We have had a lot of practise at using the track to accurately cut all the ply, so no problem there, we thought. Because the insulation was so thick, we had to turn it over and do both sides. We first drew a line all round the piece to be cut - and the line met. I wish I could do that in wood :? We also turned it over so the track was on the same side; did it line up, did it twittery....Every time. We came to the conclusion that it must be due to the PIR being slightly bowed. Brainwave....use the tablesaw ....curses, still not able to cut in one go. Run it through, turn end over, it doesn’t meet, but is quicker to cut. At this point I began wondering what the Americans do, so I looked it up on Fine Homebuilding...Double do’h. They use layers of 50mm that are easily cut on a tablesaw, and overlap the joins when sheeting the outside of a house. They can also buy massive knife bladed tools like a giant Stanley knife that cut through PIR like butter. Yet again we are in the dark ages compared to our cousins across the water...'Evening Kirk.
We have got one wall done, nearly up to the middle of the roof. At which point we had had enough, so we gave it a rest, and started on the lower venting for the cladding. But not before we had put 600 linear metres of featheredge in stick, in the barn, and weighed it down. We have also bought the cladding paint, all 40 litres of it :shock: I do hope that we like it .........
Late edit: you may have noticed stop blocks in the pics, the insulation was spaced off by 50mm to allow a good passage of air to pass and cool the roof....in theory.

See below a rather low light shot that has been....got at.





Now then...How does one make a lower vent without it costing three arms and a leg?
We ummed and arrrd, but the stainless mesh was beyond the pale (for those of an Éireann disposition), so we went for the plastic mesh, but how to fix it?
The first row of cladding needs a kick out of about 5mm to make it sit like the ones above.
I cut many 25mm wide strips of ply with my new favourite tool, the Axminster Japanese back saw. Once I had got used to pulling rather than pushing, it went very well, with no splinters at the cut. As the ply is a bit wobbly over 600mm distances, I opted to cut small blocks and fit two per bay. Using the new saw on 20mm thick PAR was a revelation. After I had cut about twenty, I checked the cut with a square. To my amazement, they were all at or near 90°. I couldn’t do that with a normal saw to save my life.
Once the mesh had been gripped and stretched under the battens, The strips of ply were pinned to the front of the battens and the spacers were equi-spaced. Now spend many a happy hour on my knees, on gravel, stapling the mesh to the front of the ply....Deep joy. I hope that you can see what I have done, if not, shout, and I will do a closeup.






You may have noticed that we have now fitted the white corner pieces that the cladding will butt against..ish. These were biscuit joined on the router table; a tricky job as some of them were banana shaped, once unwrapped. As the insulation is on the outside, there was nowt to fix to. So we cut many 150mm lengths of batten and fixed them to the nearest uprights.
The corners were temp. fixed and two short offcuts of cladding were fixed together to see if the corners were sticking out past the cladding as they should. It then dawned on us that we needed more battens to be able to terminate the cladding adjacent to the corners, so we ordered some more roofing battens, only to find that they were a lot thicker than the original. Luckily, the wracking strips were still on the walls and roof, so I replaced them with the new stuff....Phew. We also found that some of the other, original battens were sometimes a bit thick. I really am not built for vertical planing, but needs must, and the cladding will now sit more evenly. The corners were fitted using stainless steel annular ring nails.

Well, that was rather verbose, even by my standard. It’s amazing how some things are hard to describe in a few words.

That’s my lot for today; time to totter off to the shower, if my lallies will carry me.
Err, I hope that you are all up to speed with Polari?

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Charlie Woody

Hi Dick

Wow that insulation fitting is complicated. Good job it's an innovative genius like you not an silly person like me that is doing it!

Should be nice an toasty in there using 100mm insulation.

It's all looking very nice. I think when it's finished you will have one of the smartest looking workshops I have seen.


----------



## WoodnDesign

And I was begining to wonder what had happened, as hadn't seen any action, now that's a smart job ... =D> ..


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for that. Err, the innovative genius here is Diane, I have the ‘spatial awareness’ of a rocking horse :smile:

Hello WoodnDesign,

Welcome to the fold, and thanks for the support. Strewth, you’re a hard taskmaster :wink:


I have to issue a *major retraction regarding Superdec*.

Having had ‘trouble’ with the first tin being like knats pee, and then the same with the second tin when ‘trying’ to coat the roof windows, I thought to use it as a base coat for the door surrounds. We have used Dulux Weathershield Aquatech (which is a similar product) on the corner pieces, and very good it is....and available locally (with the guarantee of being able to take it back if there are any problems - as it is a Dulux trade centre). 
As soon as I started stirring the Superdec, I knew it had somehow changed; there was a lot more resistance. It went on as it should have done and covered well?
We always give paint a jolly good stir - every time, so what has changed, apart from the fact that it is cooler at the moment, I have no idea. Does anyone have any thoughts?

We nearly made what my old Chief Engineer used to refer to refer to as a “BDF”, that is, a basic design fault. We have made some chunky door frame edges, so that the doors could be mounted outboard, and swing out of the way (remember, the insulation is on the outside). We had lost sight of the fact that there would have been an almighty gap at the bottom, as the brickwork is inboard...oops  This means that the doors will have to be mounted on the carcase (inboard) and will only be able to open straight out, and if the wind catches them, they will be slammed against the edging...a massive lever that will do damage. I need to watch closely, more Wallander, as their doors open outwards...ok, any excuse.
OK. tea break over, back on my head........

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Halo Jones

> We had lost sight of the fact that there would have been an almighty gap at the bottom, as the brickwork is inboard...oops



I just made the same mistake when making the trifold doors for our workshop and the bottom of the doors will largely be over nothing. Luckily there will be a 5 mm overlap with the workshop base so I can still draft proof it but the security bolts I bought will enter fresh air!! (At least I realised my mistake before fitting them though) I will just have to buy some bolts that secure to the inside of the door rather than inserted into the frame.

Your shop is starting to look really really nice. When can I move in??!!


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":3gr6ofou said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> So, to the beginning of the insulating saga, just for Charlie Woodie  ....
> At this point I began wondering what the Americans do, so I looked it up on Fine Homebuilding...Double do’h. They use layers of 50mm that are easily cut on a tablesaw, and overlap the joins when sheeting the outside of a house. They can also buy massive knife bladed tools like a giant Stanley knife that cut through PIR like butter. Yet again we are in the dark ages compared to our cousins across the water...'Evening Kirk.
> ...
> That’s my lot for today; time to totter off to the shower, if my lallies will carry me.
> Err, I hope that you are all up to speed with Polari?
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Dick, I used a boning knife to cut the insulation board for my shop:





Of course, I didn't have 4" thick board to contend with, either. In your case, if all (or the vast majority) of the openings need the same kind of cut, I'd put together some kind of jig to make sure they all come out the same.

Kirk
just back from vacation with a late reply...


----------



## JanneKi

We install that kind of insulation boards (you refered to them as PIR - we call them polyurethane boards - or urtsalevy in slang) - we cut them only "approximately" there and then glue them in with expanding polyurethane foam. This will glue them in place and also take care of any small deviations etc. in the shapes, as the foam expands to fill in. You are even supposed to do the pieces around 1 centimeter smaller than the opening so that you have room for the foam. 

There's a video + pictures avaible here:

http://www.spu.fi/eristeet_asennus_anselmi_wilhelmi


----------



## bosshogg

JanneKi":yg6yu802 said:


> We install that kind of insulation boards (you refered to them as PIR - we call them polyurethane boards - or urtsalevy in slang) - we cut them only "approximately" there and then glue them in with expanding polyurethane foam. This will glue them in place and also take care of any small deviations etc. in the shapes, as the foam expands to fill in. You are even supposed to do the pieces around 1 centimeter smaller than the opening so that you have room for the foam.
> 
> There's a video + pictures avaible here:
> 
> http://www.spu.fi/eristeet_asennus_anselmi_wilhelmi



+1 to J's comments, also buy a good foam gun (I have only ever used the Hilti one, but I know there are others available, a quick Google will show these) otherwise the standard cans and trigger will pump the foam at full pressure, whereas small holes (and the inexperienced) only require light pressure and slow foam release...bosshogg 



> You can't help a man who doesn't tell you what he wants (hammer)


----------



## Dibs-h

bosshogg":1vzcw9jd said:


> +1 to J's comments, also buy a good foam gun (I have only ever used the Hilti one, but I know there are others available, a quick Google will show these) otherwise the standard cans and trigger will pump the foam at full pressure, whereas small holes (and the inexperienced) only require light pressure and slow foam release...bosshogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't help a man who doesn't tell you what he wants (hammer)
Click to expand...


Most builder merchants do a gun for < £20 and gun grade foam for < £5. Just remember to buy a couple of cans of cleaner. You can keep a can attached to the gun for ages (I mean a fair few months) as long as you remember to squirt a bit of cleaner on the end when you finish & won't be using it again at least for an hr, so the foam doesn't build up. Also some down the clear plastic extension tubes, should you use one.

The can of cleaner can either screw onto the gun in place of the foam can - or they have a little "top" which allows you to almost use it as a regular aerosol. I say almost because it won't squirt sideways - but straight upwards. You'll see when you see one.


HIH

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

I’m afraid that not a lot has changed, as I have been a little under the weather for the last week. But I have managed a few small things related to the window and door surrounds, in readiness for the ‘clabbord’ painting and fixing marathon.

Hello Kirk,
Thanks for the idea, but I find that anything thicker than a Stanley knife blade to be a pain, as they tend to jam as the PIR closes round them. As to a jig, we made a card pattern that we laid on and marked round to give the cut out shapes.

Hello JanneKi,
We debated whether to cut the boards straight and fill with foam, but as the ‘incursions’ are 48mm thick each side, we would have ended up with two 48mm by 100mm by 1200mm slots to fill in each bay. The cost would have been astronomical. As I said before, ‘what silly person decided on a Gambrel roof’ :smile:

The PIR stands for polyisocyanurate i.e Celotex (as a brand name) by the way.

Hello Boss and Dibs,
I hate to be a smart ars...alec, but I do have a good gun and the solvent cleaner, and yes we always buy the low expansion foam as well :smile: We first bought the gun and low foam to stick the 70mm Celotex to the bathroom walls a few years back. I winced at the price of the gun at the time, but every time I use it I’m glad I stumped up. Having used the ordinary cans of foam before, the control was a revelation. 

So, thanks to all three of you gents for the helpful info. It will possibly help someone else about to embark on a similar project now or in the future, who reads this ‘blog’.

There has got to be a time when I am stumped and in need of some help, but I am the sort of soul who researches to death any project that we embark upon, so I am usually well prepared, in theory; the practical skill is another matter :shock:

Evening all........Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":1mnk1nwu said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Thanks for the idea, but I find that anything thicker than a Stanley knife blade to be a pain, as they tend to jam as the PIR closes round them. As to a jig, we made a card pattern that we laid on and marked round to give the cut out shapes.
> 
> Dick.



Bread knife - believe me it works! :lol:


----------



## Charlie Woody

Hi Dick

Sorry to hear that you have been feeling unwell. I look forward to hearing of a speedy and full recovery very soon.

Charlie


----------



## goldeneyedmonkey

Keep up the good work Dick. I always enjoy tuning into your build  Get better soon mate. _Dan


----------



## Cegidfa

A few days back, my son Stefan and twelve of his friends cycled from London to Paris (sans la Manche naturellment) in aid of the Bristol based charity AWAMU. They support children in Kampala, Uganda, who have HIV/Aids, in their schooling. They managed to raise £11,000. I just had to tell someone =D>

Normal service will now resume!


Oops, sorry Halo, I forgot about your request to move in.
Our rates are very cheap, but that’s because we will rope you in on all the activities that we get up to. So I hope that you are a big strong boy; the one thing that we lack is muscle :smile:
You will however, have to share with our ‘children’ as they fancy sleeping in it too :shock:
Why is it, that no matter how hard we try to plan, we can miss the most blindingly obvious things sometimes?

Hi Dibs,
I think that a different dynamic takes effect once the jump is made from 50 to 100mm thickness. We have tried both a serrated bread knife and the wavy edged ones (can’t think of the name) to no avail. I can get the knife in about 50mm and then it becomes a scene from ‘Morte d’Arthur’ and my name is not Arthur Pendragon...but the knife definitely becomes Excalibur :shock:
We have decided that when we cut the insulation for the upper bout, we will use the tablesaw at max height and finish off with the other Japanese saw that doesn’t have a ‘back’. As the blade is so thin and with virtually no kerf, the dust is greatly reduced.
It’s a good job that you are a Yorkshireman, and therefore made of stern stuff, as I keep slapping down all your suggestions :smile:
Personally, I am half caste, as my mother is from Grimethorpe in Sheffield, but my dad was from Buckinghamshire :shock:

Hello Charlie and Dan,
Thanks for the kind wishes...I feel better already :smile:
Dan, I try never, to give in to pride (before the fall) but the fact that you enjoy tuning into my ramblings, makes me feel really chuffed that I can write something that people can enjoy.....given that I failed my English O levels spectacularly....along with maths,science ....
Ho hum, that’s life.

Must away and do a little bit...I can't stand sitting around. You will never see me on a hot beach, roasting in the sun :smile:

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":3svevagq said:


> Hi Dibs,
> I think that a different dynamic takes effect once the jump is made from 50 to 100mm thickness. We have tried both a serrated bread knife and the wavy edged ones (can’t think of the name) to no avail. I can get the knife in about 50mm and then it becomes a scene from ‘Morte d’Arthur’ and my name is not Arthur Pendragon...but the knife definitely becomes Excalibur :shock:
> We have decided that when we cut the insulation for the upper bout, we will use the tablesaw at max height and finish off with the other Japanese saw that doesn’t have a ‘back’. As the blade is so thin and with virtually no kerf, the dust is greatly reduced.
> It’s a good job that you are a Yorkshireman, and therefore made of stern stuff, as I keep slapping down all your suggestions :smile:
> Personally, I am half caste, as my mother is from Grimethorpe in Sheffield, but my dad was from Buckinghamshire :shock:



Come to think of it - the 25mm/50mm stuff I've cut over the years - a breadknife has worked fine, but when fitting the 100mm that I fitted in the roof - I used a regular handsaw. A 1st fix one IIRC - this one, 

http://www.toolmonkey.co.uk/product/SAn ... prodID=772

Creates a bit of dust but no real issues.

Fitting it isn't the most pleasurable of things - that's for sure! :mrgreen: 

Dibs


----------



## imageel

I concur with Dick - I used 800 mm Celotex in my shed and it was a 'mare to cut.
I tried using a filleting knife as suggested by a previous poster, but making long cuts it was difficult to keep straight, and maybe I'm weak, but trying to haul it through that thickness of foam took some effort...
I ended up using an Irwin floorboard saw for most cuts, which was equally difficult to keep straight in 2 planes over a long cut.
I must admit I will attempt most things around the house, but what with the dust and the fibre glass re-inforcment whose splinters riddled my hands, I would gladly pay someone else to cut and install it if I ever use it again!
Cheers
Ed


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

It’s been a while, but we have had a visit from the grandchildren, so work stopped play, err, should that be the other way [-X

We had been working on the doorway and window linings, but to our chagrin, we found that the kick outs that hold the soffits were not as good as we thought, so we now have wavy soffits. 
I have fitted a stand out frame round the windows, so that the cladding has something to butt up to. Whilst fitting the bottom bits, they were fixed at the side first by drilling through the verticals and screwing through. To stop breakout, I held a block of wood on the ‘out’ side. Having done three with no mishap, the last drilling went through at a rate of knots - through the block and into me. Can I say that a 4mm spur bit is not something one wants in a finger tip :evil: :evil: Two weeks later, I still have a raised circle inscribed with a black dot in the middle.

At this point, I decided to divert to cladding the back, as the front didn’t have fond memories :smile:
We set to and made a pair of crosses, but fear not, they will be used upside down to hold the cladding in the correct elevation for nailing. I also added an extension to the bottom so that it could be used to line up with the last fixing, to aid keeping the nails in line. There was also a mark, 35mm up from the bottom of the ‘tee’ so that the nail hole could be marked......Anal...moi?
We also used some angled plastic left over from the window covers, as a spacer at the edges. Having now used this system, a further mod is needed at the support end of the ‘cross.’ As it has been rather windy lately :shock: a stepped piece is needed at the top to hold the cladding back. I don’t have enough hands to hold the plastic spacer, the cross, and a hammer and nail, however, we now pre fit the two ‘outside edge’ nails, so that is one thing less. We were starting to look like a scene from the black and white comedy film with no sound, called ‘A home of your own’ with Peter Butterworth as a short sighted carpenter and Bernard Cribbins, as a mason who couldn’t spell :shock: does anyone remember it? Very funny. It was followed by ‘The plank’ with Eric Sykes I think.

The cladding went very well, and we had left a fair gap at the centre join, intending to fit a bit of 50 x 25 as a cover. Err....this can only be done with shiplap  as the thickness of the featheredge leaves too large a gap. However, we have a cunning plan to get over it...Watch this space. See below the progress to date. 











Regards....Dick.


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## kirkpoore1

The clapboards look pretty nice, Dick. 

Where's you're round window? Are you dropping it?

Kirk


----------



## Charlie Woody

Dick 

That looks a really nice job. Have you pre finished the cladding or is that the stain from the tanalising?

Sorry to hear about your injury. Hope you are soon fully recovered. I guess next time you may try to use a clamp, if possible to hold the block of wood.

This is going to be a stunning looking building once finished. Keep up the good work.

I am enjoying reading and seeing your progress.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

Have no fear, the round windows are still going to be made; exactly how is another matter :smile:

Hello Charlie,

The 'clabbords' have been finished all round in Cuprinol Garden Shades - Wild Thyme. We did go for treated boards, which came with a light brown colour.
Unfortunately, there wasn't enough overhang to enable a clamp and drill the hole, hence the religious finger :roll: 

We chose to use mini rollers to apply the finish, and it works very well: but as we are coating both sides, that's 1200 metres of painting, excluding the edges :-({|= ](*,) 

Regards...Dick.


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## Charlie Woody

Just as well you enjoy painting then!!!!


----------



## Cegidfa

Evenin’ all, (he said, with hands clasped behind his back) OK, so only the old gits will understand that :smile:

The reason for the lack of updates is due to me yet again sitting for a week staring at the wall - that was all I could manage. It was the same problem as the last four day wall stare.
I felt bloated, with lots of burping, and decidedly queasy, not to mention the head, neck and shoulder pain. This time I went to the quacks and explained how I felt, and that I had cracked my skull on a beam recently. He said that the two were not connected and treated me for IBS and did a blood test. Needless to say the medicine did pipper all, and the blood test showed everything to be ok.

At this point, I had an appointment with my chiropractor. Having explained all to her, she showed me the nerve chart, and explained about the Vagus nerve, and how it would create all the symptoms I had, when it has been squashed by the crack on the head. After two treatments I am almost back to what passes for normal :shock: one more should do it. When the body has been put out of whack, it takes a few goes before it stays in the right place.

OK, so why did my doctor not know about the Vagus nerve; was he off the day that lecture was given? Or is he just downright incompetent? As a matter of interest, we looked up this nerve, and surprise, surprise, it echoed everything that the chiropractor had said.

I offer this insight in case anyone else has similar problems after a whack on the head; don’t waste time going to the quacks, go to a chiropractor straight away and get yourself sorted out. 

Right, that’s the end of Dr Finlay’s Casebook - back to the holzwerke :smile: Isn't language fascinating - in German, 'hell' means 'light'...I offer this for no other reason than it just popped into my cell. One of the joys of working with German equipment most of my life. 

Having clad the back of the workshop in cool weather, and with rather high MC wood, we had no stability/shrinkage problems whilst cutting and painting (this way it can all shrink together, with luck}. Now that we have had a mini Indian summer, it’s a different matter. We would cut the featheredge to length, paint one side in the morning and the other in the afternoon - fitting it the next day, only to find that it has shrunk by at least 5mm...grrr. So, we then adopted cutting the wood slightly over length and trimming it to size and repainting the cut end, then fitting it. This gave the required length but trying to trim it with the pullsaw was problematic. The thin end of the featheredge would swing round and clamp the saw fast. I had decided to use the Dozuki as it is quick and to my amazement, I can cut a vertical cut every time - there is not a hope in hell of me doing that with a standard push saw. So it was out with the chopsuey for a quick but noisy set of cuts.

Can I just say, what a tedious job cladding is, not to mention, wrestling with boards that are now curving in every direction...more grrrr. Still, the front is finished, and we are reasonably happy with the look - apart from some differential shrinkage, which won’t be noticeable in the photo as it is small.

Today I finished the boxing in the bottom of the overhangs, another small thing that has a synergistic effect on the whole...well...to my view.

This raises the vexing question of should I just paint the overhang; or should I clad it - and how far should I stand it off - and what should I use? Please send all suggestions on £10 notes, as the total cost so far is not for the faint of wallet. And why didn’t I screw the standoffs on before I fitted the roof tiles, sometimes I can be such a muppet... now would that be Waldof or Statler :smile:
OK, I have kept you waiting long enough, here are the pics.












Regards....Dick.


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## MickCheese

Wow

That is looking fantastic. You should be very proud of your achievement to date.

Mick


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## kirkpoore1

Dick, that's looking so good they're sure to raise your taxes.

Darn it, I just spotted something you should have included. Over your end door, you needed a good ridge beam and pulley so you can unload machin--err, _haybales_, yea, haybales into your barn.

Kirk


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## Mcluma

Looks very good


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## Cegidfa

Hello Mick,

Don’t hold back now :smile: . You sure know how to boost a chap’s confidence. 
I’ve just noticed where you are - my dad came from Wycombe.

Hi Kirk,

Blimey, If I can impress someone from the home of ‘clabbords’ I must have done something right :smile: You can tell that window tax has been rescinded :smile:
As to the lifting gear, I don’t think that my carpentry is that good. I can just see the scene - first pic, me winching a new tablesaw up in the air, second pic, workshop tilting over and flattening me :shock:

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that: the work is a bit slow at the moment, as we have gardening and logging to do.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Having viewed Pond’s kitchen revamp last night - a fine first build; and having seen his lovely large pics that loaded very quickly, (even on my ‘narrow band’) I decided to play and see what I could do.

There are only a few more planks than the last post, but if you click on the pics, they come up super large without taking much d/l time.












Ho hum...back to turning trees into burnable logs - the eucalyptus splits reasonably easy, but the oak is a ....... 
Before anyone howls with rage at the misuse of oak, this was delivered by the Severn (at high tide :smile: ) and retrieved from our bank.

Regards...Dick.

PS. Initially, I was going to show the 'bank' but thought that it might be viewed as 'strutting my stuff' but then I thought 'what the hell'. We view it as winning the lottery,
and still can't believe our luck. I can hear Kirk referring to it as a 'drive by gloat :wink: I just like the picture, taken by Diane of course, and called 'Misty, moisty morning', after the song.


----------



## imageel

Dick - that is fantastic, the workshop and my, what a lovely view!


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## goldeneyedmonkey

Gloating about being the owner of a bank in this economic climate ey Dick?


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Imageel,

Thanks for that. When friends come to stay, you can see them relaxing as the 'exposure' increases  
Mind you, when the river comes to within about 6" of the top of the argea (dike, or levee) the botty starts to pout a bit.
More so, when all that we can see between us and the hills is one giant sheet of water :shock: 

Hello goldeneyedmonkey,

He he, actually, we had to rob a bank to buy this bank, don't tell anyone :lol: 

Evening all....One tired puppy.


----------



## Orcamesh

Dick, your workshop build is inspirational, I have been following this thread closely as you have been hard at work, I can only imagine. It is truly stunning and you live in a lovely location. Given the photo of your locality though, I wondered if your workshop also doubled up as an Ark? :lol: It will be a real bonus once the ice caps start melting! :wink: But seriously, lovely job and I will be looking out for your future threads entitled "First project from Dick's Workshop" and other similar titles!!!

cheers
Steve


----------



## yogibe4r

Good Morning Dick, 
Fantastic work so far, even my wife has been following this thread! 
Couple of questions though, as I've been working on my own 'shop recently. 
Was the v/b you used specifically for felt shingles, or can anything be used, and who did you use to supply both the shingles and underlay? 
With regards the rooflights, was the flashing kit designed for your sizes or does is come in standard lengths? 
I'm hoping to fit both rooflights and shingles but I seem to be going round in circles with google (internet'll never catch on!!) 

Many Thanks, and looking forward to the next installment 

JK


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Steve (Orcamesh)

Inspirational!! Ours is a humble offering compared to your monster build; and a darn sight easier to build. If we had gone for a brick building it would have taken the rest of our lives, at the rate that we lay bricks :smile: but thanks for the kind words.

You aren’t the first person to suggest that we should have built an ark, but we take a philosophical view on flooding. If it happens we will deal with it. Everything that we do in the house is designed with the last flood height in mind - plus a bit :smile: (last flood in 2000...one foot in the house).

I am determined that the ‘first project’ will be to finish the guitar that I started thirty years ago, before life got in the way. But, there are many pressing things that we need/would like to do; such as this ten metre long row of naff sheds that get lower towards the end. Even a Hobbit would bang his head :shock:






And not to mention building a pergola along the house, with a moon gate entrance - see below.






I sometimes wonder if I will ever get to use the workshop for woodwork :shock:

Hello JK (yogibe4r)

Welcome to the madness, and I’m glad that you are both enjoying it. 
Err...no, the v/b that we used on the roof was Rubershield Light. It may yet bite us in the bum, but I doubt it. There is a correct underlay for shingles, but it is expensive, so we have taken a chance. So far (one year :shock it has withstood very heavy rain and howling gales, and it is as solid as a rock. We bought the shingles and underlay from a local building company so no use to you. We used Iko shingles and the quality is very good.

As to the rooflights, we didn’t have a flashing kit, as I made them. We again, experimented and used Sika Multiseal sticky tape with all the overlaps done to aid draining.
So, are we going to see some pics of your build? Everyone on this site love WIPs (work in progress). If you need any more help just drop me a line, either on here or via PM.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## yogibe4r

Dick,
Thanks for the pointers, they will definitely help.
I will compile some WIP pictures and load up very soon.
Thanks again,
JK


----------



## Orcamesh

Cegidfa":kb9sxurk said:


> Hello Steve (Orcamesh)
> 
> Inspirational!! Ours is a humble offering compared to your monster build; and a darn sight easier to build. If we had gone for a brick building it would have taken the rest of our lives, at the rate that we lay bricks :smile: but thanks for the kind words.
> 
> You aren’t the first person to suggest that we should have built an ark, but we take a philosophical view on flooding. If it happens we will deal with it. Everything that we do in the house is designed with the last flood height in mind - plus a bit :smile: (last flood in 2000...one foot in the house).
> 
> I am determined that the ‘first project’ will be to finish the guitar that I started thirty years ago, before life got in the way. But, there are many pressing things that we need/would like to do; such as this ten metre long row of naff sheds that get lower towards the end. Even a Hobbit would bang his head :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And not to mention building a pergola along the house, with a moon gate entrance - see below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I sometimes wonder if I will ever get to use the workshop for woodwork :shock:
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Hi Dick
Well my build was brick indeed, and like you if I had done it it would have taken years too! Alas, I got proper builders in to do it. In any case, if I was to ever sell the house it had to also look like a garage, if I had built it, who knows what it would have looked like!! :lol: 
The Ark thing was only my warped sense of humour, I'm not suggesting it is one, it's far too nice to be an Ark!
I think given your other two projects it could be some time before furniture production line starts! You have a lot to do there. Still life would be boring if everything was all there already, hey?

Good luck with your continuing tasks, good stuff.

cheers
Steve


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

I can just imagine the scene, ‘he’s an old git, I wonder if he has popped his clogs. Dare we ask, or will it give offence to the new owner of an unfinished workshop’ :smile: :smile:

You can’t get rid of me that easily :wink:

We have been doing what we do best.....SKI..ing. We decided some time back that the current HiFi had to go. It hummed so loud sometimes that it became irritating, and placing the rear speakers was problematic in the ‘new’ house. The power amp weighs in at 50kg and in a flood, we wouldn’t get it out in time. After that we forgot about it until we went to SMC in Shrewsbury to have a look at a Sonos for the dining room. Whilst there I noticed that they stocked valve amps, so I asked if I could have a listen, as I have never heard one....bad move. We staggered out several hours later, having been blown away by the quality of sound - and our kit is good...we thought. So, we have been trialling an Icon Audio integrated valve amp, and even more bizarre, a valve CD player with some Made For Valves speakers. Oh dear, the kids will be disappointed on our demise :shock: 

To add to their troubles, we needed to join some bargeboard parts to cover the kickouts; you guessed it, we didn’t buy a biscuit jointer.......  

We had fitted the bargeboards on one end, only to find that they didn’t quite cover the soffit boxes at the inner corner, and worse, they looked disproportionate. So they were ripped off and deeper ones were fitted. Ok, so how to cut the top angle. We duly used the dangle finder, halved the result, cut and fitted the top section. Did it fit..did it .... And don’t forget, it doesn’t stop there. we have another angle to cut as well, and that went just as badly ...grrr.
The annoying thing is that I had no idea why. So, start again with wider stock. This time we clamped up the first piece then used a level to mark the vertical, and the result was better. But how to do the lower angle? We left the upper board clamped in place, having cut the angle using the angle finder, what else could we do? Having cut the lower board to the same angle we held it up in position and of course it didn’t fit. So we adjusted the angle until it fitted. The difference wasn’t wildly out, just a small annoying gap. By now we had realised that the problem was that if we fitted the board to the theoretical angle, the roof tiles didn’t have the right amount of wood overlap. Any normal person would have fitted the roof tiles over the bargeboards, not this chump. My reasoning was that the head on winds that we get, and currently have, could get under the front edge of the tiles and possibly rip them off. So I thought that if I fitted the boards high up above the tiles, they would be protected. It seems to have worked so far but what a lot of extra work. As a result, I also had to mastic down the gap between the wood and the roof, what a fun job in high winds. 
The next job was to ‘fill in’ the underskirt of the overhang as it looked a bit ‘thin.’ I fitted 50 x 50 down the long sides, and three cross pieces. This was covered in 9mm ply and has had one coat of paint; it now being below the required temp. for the paint application.






This left me with time on my hands, so we made a door frame for the bathroom...errr using the Domino  what a lovely piece of kit, and so easy to use.

Having done that I decided that we really ought to grasp the nettle and start on the round windows, as we can't fix any more cladding 'till we know the position of the window. 
I started by kerfing some ply using the tracksaw; what a tedious job. Having made 70 cuts I tried flexing it and decided to cut every 12mm...really tedious, but it bent much better, but, it is really fragile. It seems that MDF works far better but as the end will be exposed to the elements, I doubt its longevity, even though heavily painted. 
So I set out to make a former, rather in the manner of guitar construction.....see below.







First make two chariot wheels :smile: using a trammel bar..cough, ok, a lump of ply.
Not forgetting to join both the donor ply to the substrate it sits on, and the inside of the circle as well. Next the frame was constructed...see below.






All was fine until I stood it up; strewth that sucker is big....botty pouting time.






And that is as far as I have got; I’m now waiting on a delivery of some ply to make the actual window surrounds......it may be some time, as delivering two sheets of ply 12 miles is not exactly cost effective for a company. I haven’t even finished the workshop and already I have run out of storage room........err....I need another workshop :shock:
So this means that I am back on my even less favourite job than painting...cutting and fitting insulation...oh joy.

Stand by for the next thrilling episode of ‘How not to build a workshop’ by A R Dunce.


Regards...Dick.

PS. What can I use to fill the kerfs, to make the circle stronger?


----------



## xy mosian

Dick, great to hear from you again  

I cannot tell you anything about filling the, open kerfs, in the mdf. 
I'm sure you've thought of this but I'm going to mention it anyway. 
How about building the frames up brick wise, as on the wall of a well, or laminating the other way, a sort of laminated wrap? Wrapping might be eaiser from the outside, but could be doen from the inner.

Keep up the cracking work.

xy


----------



## Dibs-h

What about getting one ready made? Roger got one for about £50 with the beading.

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello xy and Dibs,

Whata mistaka to maka. I should have mentioned that all I am making is a round frame to fit a 'bare' dg unit in. 
Originally, I toyed with making opening windows, which would have been an interesting challenge, but I don't think that it will be needed, as the combination of a ventilated roof, the insulation, and a high ceiling, should make for a building that doesn't overheat.....in theory. We will see in six months time    
Thanks for the thoughts though.

Dibs, as a 'car man' do you think that Isopon P38 would work for filling and strengthening the kerfs? My available choices are that or fibre glass at the moment.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":ecx5qoxi said:


> Dibs, as a 'car man' do you think that Isopon P38 would work for filling and strengthening the kerfs? My available choices are that or fibre glass at the moment.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Body filler can be porous and subsequently cause problems later on. I'd go with glass fibre and either polyester\epoxy resin.

HIH

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

See if you can get thinner ply 2mm or 5mm that is very easy to bend in the radious you have, then do 4 to 5 layers, glued with PU glue, that will work much better then what you are now trying to do


----------



## Cegidfa

Thanks for that Dibs; having done some research; as fibreglass is waterproof, I will go with that.

Hello Chris, are you a mind reader in your spare time :shock: as I decided at lunchtime to not kerf some 15mm ply, but use three or four layers of bendy 5mm ply.
I think I would have gone mad kerfing that much  

Regards...Dick.


----------



## billybuntus

Any good stockists for timber frame round windows? Looking to replace ours next year maybe.


----------



## Dibs-h

billybuntus":1fe2f6r9 said:


> Any good stockists for timber frame round windows? Looking to replace ours next year maybe.



kembang-semangkok-t54913.html?hilit=%20window

HIH

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Can I just say, that a body can easily have too much fun cutting Celotex to fit a Gambrel roof. That's both lower bouts fitted; just the upper two to go  :evil: :wink: 

And now I have the flexy ply....hurrah. Cut the first 8 x4 into strips this afternoon and fitted the first layer. Typically, one length is not enough to go round, so a 300mm insert has to be cut for every layer. Any normal person would have made it fit. But no one has ever accused me of being normal...thank goodness.
It has just occurred to me that the glue up could be problematic, as I will have two pieces to coat every time...time will tell.







Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, are you actually building the windows, or just the hole the windows will go in?

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Kirk,

Good question - I'm not even sure that I know the answer to that one :lol: 
The method of construction has gone through several iterations. Currently, I was going to just make a tube and build up two stops (inner and outer) and use them to fix the IGU, as they are referred to over here. But on third/forth thought :roll: , we felt that without a proper, separate frame, it might look a bit 'mean'. So I am back to making a 'proper' circular frame, which I am sure will look much better. What do you think?

That will involve making a large wooden octogon, and then routing it...oh joy. At least I have abandoned making them opening; as I really don't think it will be needed.
The up side to that is, that the building will be more airtight. It will be quite a challenge for me though, as I have not used a router in that way before.
I just need to remember to lock down all the separate parts of the build up, so that I don't end up with a router doing 90mph and suddenly, it's not fixed to anything   

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

I think circular will look better than octagonal, if that's your question. In your position, I'd get the window and build out from that. You can always cut the hole in the wall as needed. Get help on the install--I bet it will take at least three people.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,
Err, I think that you have the wrong end of the stick. :shock: The idea of building an octogon was as the start of routing a circle from it.
Rather like building a wheel from segments of wood  It might have to be a dodecagon, or even a hexakaidecagon :shock: :shock: :? I have some 4 x 2 sorry 2 x 4 stock, so whichever polygon will give me the size that is required.....if sketchup says no, I will have to buy bigger stock :? :? 
As to requiring three people, as usual it will be down to Diane and me  so no change there. I will try to fit the glass after the structure is in place. That will lighten the load. But a double glazed unit that big will be heavy.
What else would we be doing on Christmas Day? :shock:   

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Deejay

Morning Dick

_'a double glazed unit that big will be heavy.'_

Got any of these?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keyw ... snlgi2wo_e

Surprisingly cheap.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Dave,

Thanks for reminding me about the lifters. We were going to get some to help lift some 'loose' floor tiles.
They will make the job much easier and safer...thanks again.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Deejay":1qevso2r said:


> Morning Dick
> 
> _'a double glazed unit that big will be heavy.'_
> 
> Got any of these?
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keyw ... snlgi2wo_e
> 
> Surprisingly cheap.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



The plastic body ones are 5h!t - DAMHIKT! The metal body ones are superb.

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Thanks for that Dibs. It might save a lot of cursing - and another trip to the glaziers :shock: :? 
Not to mention that it would probably be Diane underneath, in a 'supporting' role   

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
Just a small update to show the progress.
We have managed to glue up the first ring without too much panic. We used Feb PVA and applied it with rollers to both parts. It wasn't quite the panic that I thought it might be. We did do a dress rehersal, and on removing the clamps later, it seemed to settle the ply into its shape, so we will do that in future. Typically, each eight foot length is too short, so a small insert has to be cut for each layer. I was getting such a good fit that the pippers wouldn't come out; don't panic Mr Mannering..... phew....
See below one finished ring and another started.






We made the first ring sitting on some planks of PAR 6 x 1, sitting on the three green stands, but the layers didn't sit fully down, in spite of us tapping each layer down, prior to clamping. So I planed the edge down before removal from the mould. For the next build I found a piece of 18mm ply that was just large enough to sit the mould on. I also clamped the two together at four points so that the mould couldn't move. This time, instead of random bits of wood that nearly fit (under the clamps) I used up some offcuts of 2 x 1 cut to the exact height of the ring. This made the assembly more speedy. As you can see from the photo, it takes a lot of clamps to hold the blighter down. The bendy ply was, for me, a bit too flappy; it bulged out at the slightest chance. We found ourselves using more clamps as the layers built up. There were a few small gaps, but we will spot glue and clamp them, out of the mould. Once assembled, given its original flappyness, it is quite rigid, and once the window frame is fixed in, it will be fine.

So, may we wish all of our readers a cool Yule, happy Winterval, winter solstice or Meán Geimhridh, or just plain....






Err, that's ancient Icelandic...You didn't expect anything normal from me did you :shock:   

See you all in the New Year, so Prosit Neujahr to you all :ho2 :ho2 :ho2 

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Ok, make an octagon - should be an easy job - it isn’t, when the timber is 4 x 2 and 850 is the side width. 
I cut slightly over length on the chopsaw at 22.5°/67.5° and did a fine trim cut on the table saw, having used the angle finder to set the sliding table. We had previously drawn a circle on some 18mm ply and divided it into eight, and drawn the outline of the octagon. The side length was measured off this. Having trimmed the first side until it was the correct length, we fitted a stop to the sliding table to enable repeat length accuracy.

That was the theory; in practice the ends didn’t meet, and some of the cuts although measuring correctly for length and angle, didn’t sit solid together. We then clamped one side down to the lines and added pieces slowly to see where the problem was. After three lengths the angle was opening out. They were checked again with the a/finder, and were spot on, so we have no idea what is causing the trouble. The t/s angle was adjusted to bring the side back to the line without changing the length. This took several times round the octagon before it was back to the line, and then the cuts were a little rocky so the faces were planed in the middle until they nestled together reasonably. We were shaving off .2 of a degree at a time, and on something this big it makes a noticeable difference. We still have no idea what is going wrong, so we will be destined to repeat this process for the other window. Has anyone any idea what is going wrong, because the angles measure seemingly correct?

The next job was to mark the wood for the domino err biscuits. This went well and all the parts fitted together.






To facilitate holding all the parts together, five sides had guides screwed to the ply, on the lines. then a sixth one was fitted on the angle, to allow a wedge to be tapped in to hold it all together. The dry run went well with no gaps showing, so we went for the glue up. There are a lot of parts to apply glue to, so we worked steadily, assembling the last three sides and then fitting them as one to the rest. This stopped us having opening angle issues. The glue inevitably changes how things go together, so we had a bit of a wrestle to close up all the gaps. Having driven in the wedge, some gaps were still apparent, so I used a long guide/clamp to pull one section in, retightened the wedge, and then clamped the opposite side, and again, tightened the wedge. This incremental approach squeezed more glue out until the sides were mated. At this point we beat a hasty retreat :smile:
See the finished job below. 






Now repeat the whole process again....oh joy.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick:

I think you're finding that the average miter saw simply isn't precise enough. 0.2 degrees is a small angle, but since you have 16 of them (eight pieces with two ends each) it adds up pretty fast. A disk sander with a miter gauge would help you tweak it. Better still, however, would be a hand plane and an adjustable angle shooting board. I'm certain there are thread on this in the handtools section of the forum.

Of course, there's always the other alternative: caulk to fit and paint to match.

Kirk
who recently found that a 0.85 degree taper is way too much for even a two inch long tenon...


----------



## bosshogg

I wonder if you have considered how you will replace the glazing unit should anything go wrong with it (them) I assume by the pics of your build and described action, that you intend to have the octagonal shape routed into a ring to fit the bendy ply frame, but two questions spring to mind 1/ how do you intend to insert the glazing unit 2/ how will you be able to replace one?
Hopefully you have thought this through and my interceding is unnecessary...bosshogg 



> I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.
> Albert Einstein 8)


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Kirk,

I guess that the precision applies to the digital angle finder as well, as it read exactly 67.5° when held on the cut angle, grrrr. Still, my adjustable angle shooting board is me, holding the wood and free planing with a baby plane....it worked...... twice now. Just awaiting glue up tomorrow. 
The Domino is a great piece of kit, but cutting 64 slots, times 2, sure gets tejus (just been listening to Doc Watson :smile: )
Caulk to fit - spoken like a true artisan :wink:

Hello Boss,
Yes, the next action will be routing a circle from the octagon; deep joy at 2” deep.

The window ‘frame’ will be permanently fitted to the ring, and the IGU will have a bead of silicone as a seal, and then a removable ring inside. Thanks for asking the question though. With my memory, I’m bound to forget something at some point :smile:
I can’t believe that I’ve got this far without missing something major.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## xy mosian

Would it help gluing up in pairs and shooting the angles to square?
Then gluing up into fours/halves and shooting to straight?

Keep up the great work.
xy


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello xy,

Hmmm, why didn’t I think of that #-o ....because I am impatient by nature, and like to get things done, I suppose :roll: 
Thanks for the method though,I will store that for future use =D> but I will be glueing up the second octagon when I have finished writing this. I do have to acknowledge that the octagon is less than perfect, but the required circle is still possible, and I won't have to caulk the gaps as Kirk suggested :lol: :lol: 

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
Having just finished a mammoth routing session, I’m feeling dizzy.
Have any of you tried routing a mammoth? :shock: :smile:

The last two days have been spent walking round and round the window, gradually lowering the cut, it gets tedious to say the least.
I felt as if I had been transferred to an18th century sailing ship and was walking round the capstan raising the sails :shock: :shock:

Paddy, lay back (Paddy, lay back)! 
Take in yer slack (take in yer slack)! 
Take a turn around the capstan - heave a pawl - heave a pawl! 
'Bout ship, stations, boys, be handy (be handy)!
For we're bound for Valaparaiser 'round the Horn!

Old folkies don’t die, they are recycled as woodworkers :shock:

The extended router base was the last word in routing accessories...literally :smile:

See below for the three steps to heaven (how did Eddie Cochran slip into a wood forum)?
I really must start taking my medication again......

















I did have a few breakouts at some of the joins that were less than parfait; and I expect that if I had bothered to analyse the grain direction, and laid the pieces so that it flowed, it wouldn’t have happened so readily. Bruce Hoadly ..........I’m not; and I am working with rubbish Pine, not anything of quality.
But hey, that’s what filler was invented for..wasn’t it....Kirk :wink:

To my amazement, the windows fit in the rings quite well. I think that I should go and lay down in a darkened room now..........

Tot Ziens ........Dick.


----------



## houtslager

looking great, love the folk song adaption, you'll have to post the original in full please.

Karl

now on a woodworking sojourn in Florida.


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## kirkpoore1

Good work there, Dick. Yes, filler was made for pine. Just be thankful it's going to be painted.

Kirk


----------



## Mcluma

Looks good dick,

so it it work out well, but next time, no cleaning up before shooting the pics

and why the dutch salutation at the end?

Groetjes
Chris


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Karl,

The song is called Paddy lay back, and it came to mind because we used to perform this, when I was in a group ..... a long time ago. Not that I am a very good singer; it was the bane of my life. I could play reasonably well, but the voice was thin, with limited range.
The link below gives you the best version that I could find, and is at best, adequate. If you could have heard it sung by The Taverners, back in the dim and distant past, it would have had much more about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyb6VZZc2TA

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for the kind support, I’ll always wear it :shock: :smile:

Hello Chris,

The build up of detritus after each ‘turn around the capstan’ was massive, so I had no option but to clean up after each circuit. If you look carefully, the floor is covered in sawdust - that’s a first for me :smile:

I don’t deliberately clean up before taking pics, it stems from serving an apprenticeship. The first tool was a broom; with ‘work tidily’, as an ethos.
If you look at (I think) Dodge’s workshop pics, he is the same.

If you reflect back on these missives, they are peppered with all sorts of languages; a lifelong interest...... Or to put it another way, why not :smile: 
If I could find a way to use perestroika and glasnost, in a woodworking context, I would. They are just lovely sounding words.

In what passes for my mind, it was actually Afrikaans (same origin though). This is a hangover from working with a ‘Rhodesian’ chap, as an apprentice; and in the evenings, listening to Jeremy Taylor singing songs about South Africa, aparthied, etc. Ag Pleez Deddy - if you are familiar with his recordings, was similar to my drivel, in that it is in English, but peppered with Africaans. So, how did you know that it was Dutch, fess up.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":1iif6p34 said:


> The window ‘frame’ will be permanently fitted to the ring, and the IGU will have a bead of silicone as a seal, and then a removable ring inside. .



I'd be re-thinking that slightly if I were you.

1. the beading normally has a slope to shed water and sometimes overhangs the front face of the window (a smidge). Since you are internally beading it - you'll need to replicate that.

2. Don't silicone the window in. It's for cowboys. Use proper PolyButyl glazing tape and a method such as the B6 Method as listed at - http://www.hodgsonsealants.com/html/technical-library/ (on the 2nd tab). Using proper rubber setting blocks.

Me - I'd bead it externally. That way if you ever need to remove it - breaking the seal internally can be done - holding the unit via a suction ring. Breaking the seal from the outside - I wouldn't want to do that.

DGU - when securely fixed will be destroyed when being removed.

HIH

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Dibs,

Thanks for that; .....err, the roof windows were put in cowboy style, bedded in neutral curing silicone 
The point is that should any problems occur, I would knife the silicone and lift them out.
The same would apply to the round windows - the silicone bead would be knifed, and then removed from within. Using the tape, as you say, the IGU would be destroyed. Not good.

It might not be the best way, but at least I will be able to remove them with reasonable ease. However, if I can find a gasket that will sit on the angle of the window and be squeezed by the glass - giving me the angle for runoff, I will use that. The problem is that one normally has to buy miles of the gasketing, and I only need about 25m. 
Please note that I wouldn’t do this for house windows; there I would use the tapes and a drained cavity. Thanks for the concern though; it will be interesting to see how long both sets of windows will last - if I’m spared, as they say in Ireland.

So it’s yeeehar from me, as he rides off into the sunset.......

Regards....Dick.


----------



## MickCheese

If I understand this correctly.

Would it be worth putting a slight bevel on the outer rim of the window to help shed water?

Great job by the way.

Mick


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":1itocxi9 said:


> Hello Dibs,
> 
> Thanks for that; .....err, the roof windows were put in cowboy style, bedded in neutral curing silicone
> The point is that should any problems occur, I would knife the silicone and lift them out.
> The same would apply to the round windows - the silicone bead would be knifed, and then removed from within. Using the tape, as you say, the IGU would be destroyed. Not good.



Dick

What i was trying to say was that if you bed them in silicone, you will destroy the unit\s getting them out, you can't knife them out! DAMHIKT!

Using tape (Butyl) they will come out, all be it with some serious effort. I've had a lot of panes of glass fitted for almost 8yrs now (following method statement B6 and Hodgsons Butyl Tape) without any issues. It also comes in 25m rolls. I'd give Hodgsons a ring and ask them for someone in your locality that they supply. That's what I did. Comes in brown and white.

HIH

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Mick,

Yes it would help the drainage, but the window is going to be set back just over 60mm in the tube, so that the IGU lines up with the plane of the insulation. I have this morning, rounded over the outer edge of the window to facilitate some drainage, and because that is the look that I want. I’m not sure how I could taper and round over, without a special bit?
The main issue is not the window its self draining; as the tube will be extending as stated 60mm forward from the window. That will be a suck it and see situation. I am hoping that as the ‘shop has a massive overhang, and the window is high up under it, that it won’t fill up with water :sad: See below the degree of round over. Thanks for the encouragement.






Hello Dibs,

Thanks for your experience based persistence. Ok. It’s time to hang up the spurs 
I had assumed that the ‘secured by design’ meant that they would be impossible to remove without wrecking them. Do I take it that the tape is only stuck to the glass, and not over the black tape wrapped round the edge of the panel as well? I ask because the windows that I have used to date, have had a massive over wrap. Ergo, I would have to cut it back to almost the edge, the width of the overlapping backing tape?
Am I right in guessing that your concern is as much security as sealing? 
If so, that isn’t really a problem here ........ no burglary recorded in this particular area, in living memory .......A very rare thing these days. TIA.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

How did you do that roundover, with a panel raising bit?


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Chris,

I used a bearing guided ovolo cutter for rounding over - a big one in the grey monster, (Elu) balancing precariously on the narrow frame. I started off using the small Trend, and upped the size until I ran out of 1/4 inch cutters. That was fine and easily handled, but I decided that it needed to be larger, so had to switch to the 1/2 inch botty pouter.

So, how did you know about tot ziens ....nudge, nudge? :wink:

Small update......






I think that I might have left a clamp off...what do you think :smile:
They are holding the 60mm deep band that will position the window in the insulation, as mentioned earlier.

I have also stuck two lengths of oak together and planed the edges flat. This will be the first door frame threshhold. I used them as they were available, they had been on the living room ceiling ‘cladding’ the RSJ’s that cross the room - a right abortion, with ‘hacked’ edges to look like old beams ... not. 

Regards........Dick.

Ah, I forgot to mention, the dark knotting shows through the paint so strongly - we can't buy the white/clear stuff here. So, having had the roof windows blister, in spite of double coating (it didn't half get hot on the roof in the summer) I decided to try another approach.... The hot air blower and a meths soaked (ish) rag. Ok, a recipe for disaster if misshandled. The trick is to bubble the err gum out of the wood and give a quick swipe with the cloth. It has worked quite well, apart from one big knot, and I singed the wood a little bit - it's a matter of practice I think. Having given the window a quick rub down, I used filler in the fissures left. Time, and temperature will tell how successful it is as a method.


----------



## Mcluma

Dick,
Its quite simple
I'm dutch :wink:


----------



## sometimewoodworker

Cegidfa":2q07f6pr said:


> Hello Karl,
> 
> The song is called Paddy lay back, and it came to mind because we used to perform this, when I was in a group ..... a long time ago. Not that I am a very good singer; it was the bane of my life. I could play reasonably well, but the voice was thin, with limited range.
> The link below gives you the best version that I could find, and is at best, adequate. If you could have heard it sung by The Taverners, back in the dim and distant past, it would have had much more about it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyb6VZ2TA
> Dick.


I think you missed a bit of the URL as it can't be found with that link


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Jerome,

Sorry about that. Given that I copied and pasted from an e-mail, two middle characters had changed - how does that work?
No pinkies were involved :smile:
I have changed the original post for future viewers, but here it is for your convenience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyb6VZZc2TA

Thanks for letting me know.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Chris,

That would explain it then :lol: :lol: 
So if I see 'voetsek' after one of my missives, I'll know that I have made a blunder :shock:  

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":2goowusf said:


> Hello Dibs,
> 
> Thanks for your experience based persistence. Ok. It’s time to hang up the spurs
> I had assumed that the ‘secured by design’ meant that they would be impossible to remove without wrecking them. Do I take it that the tape is only stuck to the glass, and not over the black tape wrapped round the edge of the panel as well? I ask because the windows that I have used to date, have had a massive over wrap. Ergo, I would have to cut it back to almost the edge, the width of the overlapping backing tape?
> Am I right in guessing that your concern is as much security as sealing?
> If so, that isn’t really a problem here ........ no burglary recorded in this particular area, in living memory .......A very rare thing these days. TIA.
> 
> Regards...Dick.




Dick 

The tape is this stuff,






In the picture below, from the suppliers method statement, you can see where the tape goes and where the silicone goes,






You can also see from the following picture it being applied to the glass - you apply it to the rebate on the window frame and then the external face of the DGU, as shown in the pictures, or rebate, fit glass and then apply to external face of DGU, in-situ. Either, or if you see what I mean.






All the units I've fitted are DG, with the spacer and sealed with Bostik hot melt. Never had any tape over the edge. To my mind - tape is a sign of something isn't quite right.

On a related note - security is always a concern, but a burglar isn't going to be able to pop the beads and pop the DGU unit out, when they are taped in with Butyl tape. Certainly not in any reasonable time frame. A pro is more likely to use other methods to gain entry. But for a DGU unit - sealing is paramount, if it's not 100% - you are going to have issues. Security can be <100% as security is in layers on a property.

Besides - the realistic likelihood of having to remove the unit for maintenance purposes is ??

HIH

Dibs

p.s. read the method statement on their website - I certainly found it very useful and informative.


----------



## sometimewoodworker

Cegidfa":2bt5jpmm said:


> Hello Jerome,
> 
> Sorry about that. Given that I copied and pasted from an e-mail, two middle characters had changed - how does that work?
> No pinkies were involved :smile:
> I have changed the original post for future viewers, but here it is for your convenience.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyb6VZZc2TA
> 
> Thanks for letting me know.
> 
> Regards...Dick.


Thanks Dick it's great. 

It takes me back to the folk clubs I used to go to when I was still in England.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Having removed the clamps from the ring, I couldn’t resist fitting the window to get an idea of what it will look like. So I thought that I would share it with you.







Morning Dibs,

Thanks for that. I was looking at the Hodgson site yesterday evening, and found the installation instructions this time. It hadn't occurred to me that the glazing selector box would have links - you just can't help some people :roll: :roll: 
Although it doesn’t specifically mention it (they are after all, talking to pros, not numptys), the tape must be fitted to a position that is at least as high as the rebate edge. So it would make sense to fit the tape to the rebate rather than the glass. That way the correct location is guaranteed. Does that seem ok, given that it is a round window?

As to removing the unit for maintenance purposes; if it lasts for 15 years, I will be 80, and therefore, it won’t be me doing it :shock: :lol:

Thanks for persisting with an old duffer - I know that a number of people aren't happy with the way this site works, from a programming point of view, and they moan about Charley, who is probably a very busy person, but, it's strength is the type of people that it attracts. That is invaluable.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Dick

The tape is actually larger height wise than required. So when you fit it to the rebate - it goes past the top and afterwards needs trimming. Once the window is in - you fit it to the external face of the glass. The paper covering is designed in such away that the bottom of the tape is away from the bottom of the rebate, at the correct height, allowing you to fill that void with sealant.

I've used it for the windows on the workshop - no WIP piccies tho.

Let me know if you have no joy - I can get it locally in 25m rolls (white or brown) for not much.

HIH

Dibs.

p.s. PM me your address - I have some pieces lying about, not enough to do your window unfortunately, but enough so when you have some to hand - you know exactly what I mean. :wink: After all, if a picture is worth a million words, what's a sample worth?


----------



## Mcluma

That looks like a perfect fit =D>


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

I have just spent the last two days routing brown Polo mints - and, yes, they are pretty inedible  
The ply is 9mm WBP and is some sort of ‘mahogany’ err, from China. I do know this...it’s ....kin hard as glass. I cut the first ring in many small cuts, and it left a rather naff edge, so, having touched up the cutter with a stone :shock:.... and removed the glue/resin buildup... The second outer cut was done having plunged through, but with Diane ‘hovering with the Hoover’. This gave a better finish, but boy was it hard work. So we went back to many small cuts for the inside of the ring. Having the dust cleared at source certainly helped. I could have used the ...cough, Fes.... dust extractor, :twisted: but going round in circles, I would have got in a right pickle. As it was, after every revolution I had to unplug the router and unkink the cable - what a palaver.






At this stage, just in case there is anyone watching who hasn’t routed anything before, but is contemplating it. Don’t forget the cardinal rule - go anti-clockwise for an ‘outside cut, and clockwise for an ‘inside’ cut. This will help keep the router ‘pulled in’ to the wood, rather than flying back at you - on a straight run that is.. Also very important, if machining a ring, do make sure that the centre circle and the actual ring are securely held in place. I used double sided tape on both sides of the supporting ply strips, and put a c/s screw in the centre ring. Just to be sure.

So what are they for....... well, it might not be the normal way to do things, but they will be used to hold the IGU’s in place. The rings will be screwed in place. 
The two glass panels were ordered yesterday, so they will arrive in about a week.


Hello Chris,

Thanks for that. To be honest, I was amazed that they fitted at all, having never done anything like this before. This workshop building lark is one hell of a learning curve. So you *can* teach an old dog new tricks. Thus proving your philosophical 'statement' ... Everything can be achieved   

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Webby

When you have finished yours ....would you like to do mine lol 
as a Newbee here just read this Epic post from start to finish .....what a ride 
if only i had the room to do or the guts and stamina that is involved 

thanks for sharing 

Dave


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Dave,

And welome to the madness. I say madness, because anyone embarking on this Odyssey at our time of life, and with just us two, has to be mad.
Also, to join UKWorkshop, one has to be a bit warped, as you will have seen. There are no boring people here, just helpful, informative and amusing people.
Guts and stamina.... is he talking about us  , you haven't seen us at the end of the day :shock:. We are just two people who, given a 'need', research how, and then get on with it. 
Competance is something that only comes via many cock ups...trust me. I only take pics of the good bits, from the right angle  
Are you sure that you couldn't squeeze in a small 'shop? There are many people here who manage with tiny spaces :evil: :evil: 

Best wishes....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

I have now routed two more rings for the outside front covers.
These will give a finished look to the ring and cover the cladding where it abuts the window.






Today’s job was to fit the facing ring to the tube. At this juncture we realised that we had set the radius for the cut to the ‘inside’ tube diameter, not the end with the extra layer of ply 
This left us with a stepped look, so I decided to put a round over on each part. 
The bendy ply does not like being shaped, and several chunks were ripped off, in spite of rounding over in two passes grrrr.......
To make matters worse, when I routed the rings, I stuck them together inside out and thus routed the inside face. No problem, reverse and go again, completely forgetting that I had just removed most of the bearing path   I just managed to get away with it with a bit of fettling, thank goodness.

So, locate the ring evenly on the tube, fit a pin, move round 180° position ring and fit another pin....fit two more pins. We then decided that it didn’t look that good, and would be a pain to fill and paint. So, we will rout one large round over when the glue is dry. And take the hit of having to repair the flexy ply 






The next step will be to use the unfinished ring as the jig to mark the cut in the insulation at both ends. Then temp fit it and finish the cladding.
Manufacturing all these rings leaves us with quite a few circles of ply. My first thought was that we have been manufacturing Quantitative Easing (large scale), or making Olympic ring symbols :smile:
But on a more practical note, anyone fancy playing ‘hoop and stick’ :smile:
Or, we could just make a lot of circular tables.

Hello Dibs,

I did send you a PM, but I wonder if you received it, as I was feeling a bit Neanderthal at the time :shock: and might have hit the wrong buttons. I might have a Mac, but it is still operated by a dumkopf.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Hi Dick

Received your PM - sorry for not replying. Somewhat under the cosh, sorting out year end accounts for Companies House. Will be swinging by the PO on the way to work tomorrow.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Sorry Dibs,

I wasn't 'pushing' I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't made a balls up this end  

Regards.....Dick.


----------



## goldeneyedmonkey

Hi Dick, looking good mate. I don't envy you doing all that routing though!  Are you using a spiral (up-cut or down-cut) bit when you are routing all that ply? Spiral bits leave a much cleaner edge and get rid of all the waste that is clogging the cut. If you already know this then please ignore 

Wealdens do them here. Again, not sure which ones you would need. I use them for Birch Ply and they leave a great finish.

Cheers _Dan.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Dan,

I did consider spiral bits, as I only have straight ones.
But, having done a lot of reading about them, it would seem that they are a double edged sword. The up spiral clears the debris, but pull the edges up also - especially in ply. They were only recommended for solid material.
The down spiral compresses the debris into the furrow, thus needing a lot of clearing to stop burning. However, once the rings were open edged, the down would have been an improvement, but then I would need a round over bit, now there’s a thought - a down spiral round over bit :shock:  
The reality is that the ply not the best; it’s full of cavities and is as splintery as hell. Having cut the ring former from cheap birch ply that I already had, I know that it performed much better.
I could have ordered 9mm birch ply, but felt that I might get some advantage from WBP being a bit tougher weather wise. Thanks for the link by the way.

Stop press.
Yesterday, at about four pm I cut the first circular hole in the insulation and temp fitted the tube. My word, even with the sun sinking fast, the amount of extra light was amazing. When there are two of them, the 'shop light level will increase exponentially. Oh, and it looked good and proportionate too ....dead chuffed (hammer) (hammer) (hammer) Unfortunately, the scaff blocks the view, so a pic will have to wait.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":2rws3m49 said:


> Stop press.
> Yesterday, at about four pm I cut the first circular hole in the insulation and temp fitted the tube. My word, even with the sun sinking fast, the amount of extra light was amazing. When there are two of them, the 'shop light level will increase exponentially. Oh, and it looked good and proportionate too ....dead chuffed (hammer) (hammer) (hammer) Unfortunately, the scaff blocks the view, so a pic will have to wait.
> 
> Regards...Dick.




Well, Dick, as they say about bacon & eggs, the chicken is involved, but the pig is _committed._ I'd say you're committed now. Good luck with this stage.

Kirk


----------



## Mcluma

Ohhhh the joys of being retired.


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":3400zpdv said:


> about bacon & eggs, the chicken is involved, but the pig is _committed._



Never heard that before!


----------



## Cegidfa

Thanks Kirk.....who’s committed, I stuffed it back in and fitted three cleats to stop it blowing in :smile:

Hi Chris .. so are you at that blissful state yet, or is that wishful thinking?

Hi Dibs.....you are not alone. But at least the chicken has a choice ....poor piggy.
Said Dick looking covetously at next doors Tamworths as they fatten up.

Regards...Dick.

Were I 3.5 metres tall, this would be the view. Taken a little while back, with minor flooding.


----------



## Noggsy

Cegidfa,

I've just managed to catch up to date and I am blown away by what you have achieved! Thank you for sharing, it genuinely is an inspiration to me. I get down to Powys fairly often as I have relatives there (Llanidloes)...if you ever need a hand for a day with heavy lifting or whatever, let me know, I'd be delighted to help with what is so obviously a labour of love. Keep it up, it's nearly Spring.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Noggsy, 

Welcome to the fold. Had you been here yesterday, you would have been blown away - literally :shock: I was up on the scaff’ painting the overhang, in preparation for fitting the cladding round the window. Thanks for the kind offer, we could have done with you when we laid the concrete - that was definitely a three person job (or more).

Regards.......Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

At last, the overhang is painted. It’s a pity I didn’t do it before I started cladding. Then I wouldn’t have had to hang sheets over it :roll: 
This does raise the question of how I repaint it when necessary :shock: 

At this point, a quick note to Dibs. Please don’t worry about sending the sample, I have made an executive decision on what to use for fitting the glass. But many thanks for the offer - I need to remind myself that most of you have a living to earn, as well as all the other calls on your time. Anyone approaching retirement should never worry about how you will spend the time...... you won’t have enough free time to worry. In fact I could do with another life based on retirement, so that I could do all the things that I want to :wink: 

The ‘executive decision’ was brought about after talking to Hodgsons, the glass tape makers. They couldn’t find anyone who had been supplied with the tape size that I wanted.
I needed the more narrow tape, as they suggested that the usual tape used for glazing DG panels would bend round a circle with difficulty. So I have opted for the 12mm x 2mm white butyl bedding tape that is not so sticky or intractable. This is sold by Reddiseals, and is far cheaper as it comes in 19m lengths, not 200m.

I was going to round over the window edge, but the size that I required was not recommended for use in a free hand router....and it was £50 for two cuts.
So I opted for a chamfer cutter costing £20 from Wealdens (thanks for the link Dan) I then rounded it over (ish) freehand with sandpaper. See the result below, after the first coat of paint. Actually, I now prefer the soft angle to the round over, as it will give interesting shadow lines in the changing light.






I now have the DG units for the windows, they cost £78.67 for both units, not bad for something that big ... and round...and with swiss spacers.

Tomorrow, weather permitting, I will refit the bare tube, and start fitting the cladding round it. I can just see the headline in the local paper, ‘Pensioner takes up hang gliding...using one width of green cladding.’ :lol: :lol: 

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello folks,

Today has been wet, windy and blooming cold, so we only manage to scribe and fit three lengths of cladding. :roll: 
It isn't the easiest thing to do, as the slightest error is magnified by the roof angle.
We quickly adopted the method of not measuring, but cut the angle, space the cladding off, and mark the two points of the circle.
And then retreat to the w/s and lay the other circle on and mark the arc, before using a coping saw to cut the shape. Then a quick dab of paint to seal 
the cuts, measure and drill the nail positions, and fit the nails ready.This does make life easier, as everything is to hand.
See the results below. Tomorrow is supposed to be dry, but not above 0℃ ..... oh joy.






Regards......Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":q59702wu said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards......Dick.



Dick, are you using the bare tube as just a pattern to fit the clapboards, then? You'll remove it and replace it with the white tube w/rim? Or am I completely misreading you?

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Kirk,

You are reading correctly. As it's not fixed, it can be slid back so the clabbords go over the front. This makes marking easy.
Then at night we pull it forward and clamp a sheet of polythene over the ring to keep the rain out.
It really is a slow job, or maybe it's us  We are one level below the top of the ring now and ran out of pre painted board.
So we had a frantic painting session as the light failed, and then realised we hadn't cut any kindling for the fire. There's nowt like forward planning.
Ahh, translation needed perhaps; 'nowt' is Yorkshire dialect for 'nothing.' Although you probably knew that. :roll: :roll: 
What is it they say 'two countries divided by a common tongue.' :lol: :lol: 

We were discussing sealing the window tube to insulation gap, and where the window fits tight at the centre between the battens (as water would be trapped there). And I said that I would shape the foam out to the front to divert any water. I then got one of those 'so why exactly did I marry this dunderhead' looks - I'd forgotten about the front ring. What a dope.
So now I have the unenviable task of wrapping the ring in poly' and trying to foam it, but be able to remove it afterwards. I will have to experiment and see if it will work, or whether I will have to put some kind of release agent on the poly. Perhaps silicone spray would work ... or just old fashioned grease?
And to think that all you folks out there reading this thought that this build was well planned and executed, down to the last detail :roll:   

Regards....Dick.


----------



## MickCheese

Keep it up, loving every update, is a really interesting project.

I am thoroughly enjoying reading of your efforts. The actual build is wonderful. You have created a truly beautiful building.

Mick


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, nothing is ever as easy if you're on a ladder. For instance, it took about 4 hours to get my new cyclone assembled and installed because it's mounted way up on a wall:





And that was with three people working. 

I've been following the window in a tube issue and haven't been able to visualize it very well. By my understanding, you're going to put the window into the tube, seal around it, and install the tube itself. You're worried about water pooling on the level tube surface outside the window--correct? Or are you more concerned with water getting in at the junction of the clapboards and the outer ring?

If the former is the main concern, I'd build up a layer of sealant in the bottom of the ring so that there is some slope from the window surface to the front edge, and the water will tend to run out. If the latter, how about adding some thick foam weatherstripping to the inside (shop-facing) edge of the ring? When you press the ring into place, the foam will compress and (theoretically) forming a tight seal. You can caulk it after it's in place, but it shouldn't take much.

Oh, I've seen "nowt" before. In Tolkien, I think.

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Hello Mick,

Thanks for the continuing support. I still can’t believe that so many people are enjoying this; I must be doing something right. :shock:   

Hello Kirk,

Whilst I understand the old saying that ‘everything in America is bigger’ did you have to buy a cyclone that is as tall as you are?    
No wonder it was difficult to fit. =D> =D> 

If you look back to Pg24, note where the tube is actually squeezed between the clapboard battens. That is the ‘pinch point’ I was concerned with. Normally, with this design of building, as recommended by Jo Lstiburek, the pre-eminent building scientist in the USA, the idea is to design as if the clapboard *will* let some water by, but make the next building face as watertight as possible. This way, it will act as a drainage plane, and the free air movement will dry it out later. By butting the window tight to the battens, I have stopped the downwards free flow of the water. Why it didn’t occur to me at the time of sizing the window goodness only knows. It’s not as if I haven’t read Dr. Joe’s pearls of wisdom many times. Anyone interested in building science can find him at http://www.finehomebuilding.com or http://www.buildingscience.com

So, having pontificated about this problem, what did this numbwit do. He carried on cladding - because he is impatient by nature. Thus covering over the problem area and making rectification ten times harder ..... I despair of me sometimes. I could of course remove the cladding; we tried that earlier in the project. It wrecks the board; those ring shank nails are good......unfortunately. 
My task now is to scorp out enough of the battens to create a free running waterway between the tube and the batten .... from the side. :shock: 
Had the cladding not been there, I could have used my trusty Fein to easily remove enough material, literally, in minutes. This tool was horrendously expensive at the time,
but it has dug me out of the ordure many times. I would highly recommend them, if you are as thick as me. I could still use it edge on I suppose, and then clean the chipped surface after, perhaps with a sharp chisel? I don't need anywhere that the wood can easily absorb water.

No self respecting tradesman would divulge the fact that he is an incompetant buttocks :shock: , but I feel that it is my duty to report this build with honesty - warts and all, so that no one else will make the same mistakes.....maybe.

Well, now is the winter of my discount tent, it’s time to go and sort out the up cock.

Regards...Dick.

Doh! I forgot to mention to Kirk about the pooling in the bottom of the tube. This is something that is a concern, but we will adopt a suck it and see approach.
The overhang is large so it may not be a problem, if it is, we will address it later. :roll:


----------



## Boatfixer

If I understand it you are concerned about the ring being tight to the battens and with cladding in place it is not easy to alter the battens.... If that is so can you not just plane a small flat each side of the tube to provide clearance when the whole thing is assembled? As the ring slides in and out at the moment it may be easier.

Graham


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Graham (Boatfixer),

Welcome aboard, and thanks for a very practical idea.
Unfortunately, the ring for this end is assembled, that is, the end overlapping circle that covers the cladding cuts is already glued on. See pic Pg24. 
I do have a rabbet plane though.....hmmm.
The only downside that I can see is that it would be like slicing an onion, cutting through the layers would weaken the structure maybe? Food for thought and thanks once again for the input.

Regards...Dick.
PS. Now if I had a convex rabbet plane.........


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## Boatfixer

That high up under the overhang I would not think you are talking about much water if any at all getting behind the cladding so you don't need a huge clearance. Just a couple of shallow cuts with a saw and clear between them with a sharp chisel then paint to seal? You really won't be affecting the structural strength to any major degree.

Regards
Graham


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## kirkpoore1

OK, I see now. 

How about using a router with a guide bushing and straight bit and running it along the edge of the ring through the pinch point? It will cut most of the batten away at that point and leave a downward channel. You can cut & fit an arc-shaped piece of scrap to fill the cut away clapboard. As long as you don't hit any nails, you should be fine. 

Kirk

Oh, since you have the ceiling space, you'll probably want to put your dust collector up high too. It really saves space. Of course, you need to do it before you sell your scaffolding.


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## Cegidfa

Hello Graham,

If only I could have got a saw in there! Between the overhanging cladding, and not wanting to damage the insulation any further, I couldn’t get a saw in there. So it was chisel the worst and then use the Fein with the masonry curved blade to shape, and finish with some sandpaper. Typically, having finished, I remembered that I have some small 12mm wide wood blades for the Fein, so I could have made the cuts after all. It would have made the job a lot easier, as the grain was all over the place, and there were several knots. 
If only I had a memory, I wouldn’t get into these pickles. :wink: :wink: 

See the finished job before applying some finish. Just enough gap to allow any water to run down. I hope.











Hello Kirk,

I could just see me doing that with a router, the next report would have been from my hospital bed, whilst I waited for them to re-attach the parts of me that I had routed off in the process. The idea was good, but not with me doing it. #-o #-o 

Good grief, no wonder it took so long, and off a ladder...not fun. That looks a tight fit, considering that people had to be in that space as well.
Now we know why you fitted clerestory windows   

That is an interesting word; you would call it clere story(or clearstorey), over here it is cle res tory, with the accent on the res. I think that in this case, you folks have it right, especially with the clear spelling. Because the opposite of a clearstory or storey, is a blindstory or storey...a wall or storey without windows, usually relating to a church.

Why am I cursed with remembering useless information, but forget to leave a gap in the rain screen .... It drives me mad...grrrr.

I can just see that in the roof; every time I fired it up, the entire shop would start to vibrate.
And the whole frame would start to resonate until it hit harmonic unison ( like soldiers marching over a bridge - ‘break step’ as they used to say), at which point it would implode, probably with me in it. I am considering making an attached ‘outhouse’ or sentry box, to house the extraction. But that’s for later.


----------



## MickCheese

Sorry, but I am a bit confused.

Is the idea to slide the widow with frame into that tube from the outside so there is (Don't know what to call it) 'architrave' overlapping the feather-edge, then sealing behind the 'architrave' to stop water getting behind the boards?

Or

Should I just be patient and wait for the photo's?

Mick


----------



## Cegidfa

Morning Mick,

Disclaimer.
Let me assure you, no widows will be harmed in the fitting of this window. :shock:   
Sorry Mick, I just couldn’t resist it...... French widows in every room ....Gerard Hoffnung rules. =D> 

I have two tubes, one plain, or unfinished, and the other, with its architrave/overlap ready finished (bar the shouting). The first tube is used as a means of marking the cladding for the curved cuts. The finished one will then be finally fitted into the hole from the outside. The architrave, for that is what it is I suppose - just a curved version, will sit against the peaks of the featheredge cladding. There is no way that the created gaps behind could be sealed (without an alarming amount of caulk or gasketing, which would leak in the end and probably look awful) so the idea is to accept some leakage and create an efficient drainage plane behind, as I have mentioned before. 
Whilst language is a wonderful thing; in this instance, a picture or drawing, would be far more clear. I hope that what I have written makes some sense. Don't ever be afraid to ask again if not.
I always adopted the stance of 'there is only a bad teacher' when I had an apprentice. I felt that it was my job to find a way to explain the 'ways of the electron.' Not an easy task. Start with single and two way switching, and if that went well, move on to star/delta starting and the like; these days it would be an inverter.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## MickCheese

Dick

Thanks for that, now makes perfect sense.

Some sort of rubber gasket is what is needed.

Mick


----------



## flying haggis

Are you trying to tease the rest of us with the little glimpses of the inside of your workshop that we have just had through the round window (Starting to sound like Play School now!)

More pics please so we can go green with envy again!


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello flying haggis,

That was just what we needed; we did have a good giggle   =D> 
We have been freezing our butts off trying to fit the last few layers of cladding, and we have got to the difficult (for us) cuts where one or two millimetres make a big difference - the angled cuts against the roof. At the same time, the top insect mesh has to be accomodated, and that's a fiddly job as well :wink: 

Now we can't have envy here :shock: it's very unwoodworkerly. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :evil:   
Besides, the inside of the shop looks like the back end of a tram smash at the moment. And don't forget that the inside is still naked   as I still have to add further insulation and then clad it. You will just have to learn the Virtue of Patience, or sit on the Naughty Step....
I suppose that is something else on the list of things to make  

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

I think i can help you out on your worries about a tight seal.

I have been looking into expanding polyurathane self adhesive strips. these are attached and then can expand up to 50mm or even more to give a weather tight seal. that would do you perfect, it will follow the contours of your shiplap perfect

Here is the link

http://expandingfoamtape.co.uk/gap-size-10-18-mm


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello chris,

Thanks for the link, that would do the job well.
It's a pity that they don't do it in green......or should it be white? :lol: :lol: 

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Boatfixer

Similar foam sealing tape cheaper from Screwfix - http://www.screwfix.com/search.do?fh_se ... atherstrip

Available in white too.... I used this when sealing windows against a log lap building and it did the job brilliantly, compressing at the high points and filling the low points

Graham


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Graham, 

Thanks for the link. I have a choice now.  

Regards....Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Not much to report this time; we’ve been travelling - up the M6 and over to Edinburgh.
A far easier journey than we expected and beautiful scenery.  Then down the other side of the country to York; through the blizzards,...oh joy.  
Then back home across many motorway junctions......With a satnav that is out of date, so we bought a new, fully manual map. :roll: :wink: 
We enquired about the cost of a new disc :evil: :evil: Strewth, they are expensive. It would be cheaper to buy a Tom Tom or the like.

So, we have now fitted the last pieces of cladding round the circular hole.
I left the insulation in this time, in case I overexcited flying haggis :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 
The window circle has been painted again and will require one more coat, then it’s assembly/fitting time ... at last.






That’s all for now.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## flying haggis

Spoilsport :lol:


----------



## kirkpoore1

flying haggis":ixu1c7ej said:


> Spoilsport :lol:



I was thinking "Tease!", myself.

Kirk


----------



## Adam Mada

Wow, I'm certainly envious! This looks like its going to be an amazing workshop when finished


----------



## Cegidfa

Morning flying haggis and Kirk,

Spoilsport, tease - nothing was further from my mind :-" :---) [-X [-o< 

Hello Adam, welcome to the collective.  If you look on the first page at posting 12, you will find an *envy exemption clause*. :shock: :wink: 

Don’t lose sight of the fact that, inside, it is only a box, with machinery and and a numpty
mangling wood .....err, that would be me.  

Right, I must get on, I am assembling the window today. More on that later.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Charlie Woody

Dick

You'll need to get a move on then ..... first of today's rugby matches is on a 4p.m. but the important one is not on till 8.00 p.m. :lol: :lol: 

Keep up the good work as you must be nearing the home straight now.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,
Another exciting day at the ranch  
Firstly, the DGU was placed in the frame to ascertain the spacer size. The glass had been made far to large :evil: so the gap was about 2 to 3mm ....sigh. Spacers were made from a soup container - no expense spared here. :roll: Then the Hodgson’s Flexstrip was fitted round the glass rebate. This is a 2mm thick butyl bedding compound. What a pain in the pineapple this is to do. It doesn’t lend itself to going round circles, even ones this big. Because the removable back cover is wider than the butyl, it is difficult to get it set right on the edge. Grrr.
See this beautifully crafted cock up below.







Next the DGU was dropped (carefully) into the frame and the spacers fitted. Boy does this stuff grip ...who needs glazing tape (sorry Dibs :-" ). We then pressed down to fully seat the glass into the butyl . This wasn’t a raging success, due to the coolness of the conservatory; and we wanted to see a clear even seal all round. So :idea: turn on the underfloor heating, turn it up to 20℃ and place the assembly on the floor, and go and have coffee.......Some time later....

We tried pressing it down with more success, but not enough. So there is this vision for anyone strolling past, of two people standing on a glass window holding each other steady and moving round a bit, flexing the knees to give extra downward pressure, move round and repeat this merry dance - a bit like a scene from Zorba the Greek :shock: :lol: :lol: 
Having gone round four times, the goop was duly squozed flat all round. The window was now level with the top of the rebate ... phew.

The frame was turned over and the excess goop knifed off ..... oh, if only it was that simple. The bloody stuff sticks to the knife and the glass, and won’t pull off, roll of, or any other ‘off. Having got the worst off, it was tidied up with white spirit and a plastic bag over my thumbnail. It can’t be left too long because the butyl starts to dissolve.

The window now needs securing into the tube, so we marked the tube top and bottom, and measured round to get four positions 45° off axis. These were drilled for 5mm screws. 
Then silicone was gunned round the recess of the tube and the window lowered in, not forgetting the orientation. The screws were not fully driven in, as there was some gapping and spacers had to be fitted so that the tube wasn’t pulled out of shape ....there had been some shrinkage over time. 

The assembly was flipped over and the squeeze out checked, there was none, which was just right, as we wanted to fill the minimal gap with calk so that it could be painted. I can’t believe that it has gone this well, considering the start. \/ \/ 
We then flipped the window back over and caulked the inside. Job done bar fitting the hold-in ring ... which I had forgotten to finish painting......doh!






So, tomorrow, the flip side needs painting; the caulking needs painting, and ...oh yes, the tube has developed some parting in places, so they will need re-glueing. The tube has been kicked around a bit. See below the state of play to date.






Hello Charlie,

Having been born without a sport gene :wink: I don’t suffer from the need to stop early  
I wish that we were near the home straight. There is still the other end to do, that’s clad the overhang, fit the bargeboards, fit the cladding round the other window, make four doors, finish the roof insulation, fit more insulation in the walls, and then clad all of the inside. And then there is the little matter of running the power all the way across the house and tunnel out to the workshop....hmm, you are right - not much to do......aaaaah.

Regards....Dick.


----------



## houtslager

looking great. though I glad I"ve decided to make an octogon window for my gaff 

k


----------



## xy mosian

Cegidfa":35nb547b said:


> Hi folks,
> Another exciting day at the ranch
> 
> We tried pressing it down with more success, but not enough. So there is this vision for anyone strolling past, of two people standing on a glass window holding each other steady and moving round a bit, flexing the knees to give extra downward pressure, move round and repeat this merry dance - a bit like a scene from Zorba the Greek :shock: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Regards....Dick.



Nah sounds more like the Glaziers dance from Much Binding on the Marsh :lol: Seriousley keep up the entertaining work Dick, sorry the great work.

xy


----------



## Cegidfa

At last.......

The window is fitted. 
First I had to make the fit through the hole tighter, so more foam was required. The question is, how do I do it and remove the ring? The answer was to wrap the other ring in plastic and coat it with bar/chain oil. Then refit the ring and carefully pump more foam in from both sides; leave overnight and see what betides on the morrow. 
I tried to turn the ring but it wouldn’t budge; but it would wiggle back and forth. Then I was able to withdraw it....hurrah.

At the foam/goop interstices, the foam took on a different look; it went quite hard and glassy, but this wasn’t a problem. The minimal excess was trimmed off and the window was now ready for fitting.

First the expanding foam was fitted to the overlap. This fitted round the tube a treat, unlike the butyl. We then lifted the window up onto the scaff’ using a ladder each, and pushed it through the now tight hole ... ‘don’t you love it when a plan goes together.’
I then pushed the frame as far into the cladding as was possible whilst Diane climbed up inside to set in the four fixing screws......job done.The black foam that we used proved to be the best answer as it vanished in the shadow line and expanded to fill all the spaces.
If left uncoiled, it expands to around 50mm deep, so there is no fear of any gaps.
So here is the finished article, sans scaffolding. To say that we are chuffed, is an understatement. \/ \/ ccasion5: ccasion5: 






Hello houtslager,

Thanks for that; so are we going to see a WIP of the octagon window? Let’s see how a pro does it.

Hello xy,

Much Binding in the Marsh. Good grief, I didn’t realise that you were that old.......
I may be wrong, but are you not conflating two different things here? There was the ‘merry glazier’s song’ from ‘The Gas Man Cometh’ by Flanders and Swann? 
I have to rein in my ‘sense of humour’ as it is a little odd at times; but I try to get a balance between dry ‘prose’ and some levity, that being my default mode.


Regards.....DIck.


----------



## Paul Chapman

That looks really nice.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## kirkpoore1

That looks excellent, Dick. You've done a great job. I hope the other one will go easier. 

If you're still worried about leaks, you can always spray around it with your hose and see if you get anything on the inside. Might want to give it a couple of days to make sure the expanding foam is fully set up.

Kirk


----------



## Charlie Woody

Brilliant job, well done Dick!


----------



## flying haggis

> There was the ‘merry glazier’s song’ from ‘The Gas Man Cometh’ by Flanders and Swann?
Click to expand...


Just for you Dick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOA_SUKEZRE


----------



## xy mosian

Hi dick, yes I remember the Light Program. As it happens I was listening to 'Round the Horn' as I read your post. As for 'The Gas man Cometh' I had forgotten that reference to the Glazier's Song. It seemed to me you were 'binding' the glass to the .... Well never mind. 
Another well thought out solution to a problem well executed. Great stuff.
xy


----------



## dedee

Yeah not bad :wink: :wink: But what took you so long :wink: :wink: 

I've enjoyed following this from the start and it has been inspiring. I hope you continue with a WIP of the interior. Do you think that you will be in by christmas - a much beloved phase of the TV renovation/build programmes.


Cheers

Andy


----------



## Mcluma

Dick,

just remember although the foam will expand to 50mm it doesn't give a full weather seal at full 50mm expansion

Chris

ps
the window looks really good.

any pics from the inside??


----------



## Dibs-h

Hi Dick

What can I say  Did you use the tape on both sides of the DGU or just one?

Dibs


----------



## Wildman

jlawrence":3pmi92ny said:


> I can't believe at that size you can avoid either planning or building regs.



you cant it exceeds allowable height and because electrics are inolved will need building regs approval, unless I am very much mistaken.


----------



## houtslager

bloody well done there !


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

I forgot to mention yesterday which expanding foam I used for sealing the window.
I used the stuff suggested by Chris (Mcluma) and it does a good job ... Thanks Chris.
See the link below for supplier.

http://expandingfoamtape.co.uk/gap-size-10-18-mm

Thanks to all of you for the kind words ... The spirit of Chippy Minton rules ..... if your children grew up with Camberwick Green that is. Kirk may have to look that one up?

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for the suggestion, the fit was really tight, and I will further seal the inside of the insulation just to be sure. I just can’t bring myself to whet that which I have just finished.

Hello flying haggis,

Thanks for the link; that was a very well executed film.

Hello xy,

Your radio must have one hell of a reception delay on it :shock:  First class comedy though.

Hello dedee,

Welcome to the Borg collective....... What took me so long? I’ll have you know that this is one of my faster projects :wink: The WIP will continue inside, but it won’t have the pazazz of the outside.
How exciting can wall cladding get? Yes, we will be in by Christmas.......but I’m not saying which one.

Hello Dibs,

Thanks for pointing me to Hodgsons. The butyl strip worked well, once we had warmed it up.  Yes, it was only fitted to one side, as I screwed a separate ring to the inside, not that it was going to fall out. That stuff sticks like the proverbial to a blanket. :shock: :wink: 

Following Wildman's terse comments on J Lawrence's original question about planning, over a year ago. The regulations are very straightforward; you do not require planning permission if your building is more than 2m from a boundary, more than 20 metres from a highway, more than 5 metres from the original house and does not take up more than half of the surrounding garden. The only restrictions in this case are are that the ridged roof should not be taller than 4 metres and the eaves not more than 2.5 metres.
To avoid building regulations the internal floor area must be not more than 30 square metres. For the electrics you would need to use an electrician qualified to Part P who will issue a certificate.

The above information is taken from "Planning A Guide for Householders. What you need to know about the planning system." Published by the Welsh Assembly.
And the Planning Portal (for England) states exactly the same conditions.

Many people seem to have a lot of trouble with what can and can't be built. All we did was to go to our local planning office and ask. The planning clerk then gave us the booklet mentioned above. It is clear and easy to interpret. So don't be afraid to talk to your Planning Dept.

And to satisfy flying haggis and Chris, here’a shot of the inside. I can tease no longer. 






Regards....Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Hi Dick

If you fitted the butyl strip to the outside, you will have trimmed the excess butyl off - ideally it needs to be trimmed to the same angle as the external beading. Also run a fine bead of silicone over the top of the the cut, sealing the "interface" between the glass, strip & beading.

On the whole I found it easier to trim using a curved blade.

HIH

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":tvr3s45p said:


> Thanks to all of you for the kind words ... The spirit of Chippy Minton rules ..... if your children grew up with Camberwick Green that is. Kirk may have to look that one up?


Ah, a sort of 60's Bob the Builder. "Can we build it? Yes we can!"



Cegidfa":tvr3s45p said:


> Hi Kirk,
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion, the fit was really tight, and I will further seal the inside of the insulation just to be sure. I just can’t bring myself to whet that which I have just finished.


You mean I can't whet your appetite to wet your window, Dick?



Cegidfa":tvr3s45p said:


> ...
> And to satisfy flying haggis and Chris, here’a shot of the inside. I can tease no longer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards....Dick.



By the way, your bandsaw is way too short for your ceiling. We're gonna have to get you into a nice Wadkin after you get settled in.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Morning Dibs,

Given that I used white spirit and a thumb nail to ‘reseal and reform’ the cut edge, do you feel that the weatherproof nature of the butyl would have been compromised enough to warrant the extra silicone? 
Careful Dibs, you are in danger of turning into a walking Hodgsons window manual. :shock:   

Morning Kirk,

Sort of like Bob the Builder, but a more genteel lifestyle where everyone is friendly and helpful. That was the ethos I was comparing with the people on this site.

‘Whet that which I have just finished’ .. Oh dear, how did that extra h slip in there. :shock: 
I will claim concussion, because I tried to take a pic of the window (inside) from a set of steps...that were situated under one of the cross beams, and yes, we collided. So I have an egg on my head...again, doh. And to add insult to injury, the pic wasn’t very good. :wink: 

It’s not the bandsaw that is too short, the ceiling is too high.
There is no way on earth that Diane and I could person handle a Wadkin.....I know our limitations. Unfortunately, we don’t have access to an army of big butch blokes.
Hmm, perhaps I should rephrase that sentence? :shock:  

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":38jtssyt said:


> It’s not the bandsaw that is too short, the ceiling is too high.
> There is no way on earth that Diane and I could person handle a Wadkin.....I know our limitations. Unfortunately, we don’t have access to an army of big butch blokes.
> Hmm, perhaps I should rephrase that sentence? :shock:
> 
> Regards...Dick.


Who said anything about "an army of big butch blokes"? Just get a batch of friends:




Pay 'em in pizza and beer, and all's good.

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":dn518wmb said:


> Morning Dibs,
> 
> Given that I used white spirit and a thumb nail to ‘reseal and reform’ the cut edge, do you feel that the weatherproof nature of the butyl would have been compromised enough to warrant the extra silicone?
> Careful Dibs, you are in danger of turning into a walking Hodgsons window manual. :shock:
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Dick

What can I say?  

Problem I found with the butyl is that in the process of cutting it - it never cuts perfectly and drags and tears slightly. Running a very fine bead of silicone over the top (IIRC - I didn't trim the end of the nozzle as it had a 2-3mm opening as std) and flattening that, deals with the unevenness in the butyl. 

Having said that yours is a round window with very little in the sense of a true horizontal surface so you might be OK. Only you know the state of the butyl on the outer surface, so make a call based on that.

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Kirk,

They look pretty strong to me :shock:  You haven’t seen me in summer clothing; I’m more like an escapee from Stalag Luft 3. 
We could manage the rolling across the floor; it’s the lifting out of the delivery vehicle and into the shop that would present the problem. 
Not to mention that it would have to stay easily moveable, as the shop is a lot smaller than your young house. :wink: 

Hi Dibs,

The butyl is intractable stuff; there’s no, just slice off the excess, and on the curve, as per the instructions.
And that’s a good point about leaving the nozzle as it is, to get a tiny seal. Gunning mastic is not one of my strong points, so keeping it small is a good move, as there is less to smear everywhere. Now, if only I hadn’t been so hasty in taking down the scaffolding.  

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Whilst waiting for some more ply and wood to be delivered, so that I could comlete the other overhang, I started on the door manufacture. Needless to say, there are no drawbore mortice and tenon joints here :shock: just a multitude of Dominos. :shock: It will be interesting to see if they can take the weight of the frame and two glass panels.
I cut the rebates using the tracksaw and finished with the Fein, then cleaned up with a chisel. I'm sure it would have been easier to rebate all the way along and overlap the rails, as per bought windows and doors.

Four per joint were used top and bottom, and two in the middle.
I did a dry run and there was an error which required an angled brace to pull it straight.
But, when glueing up, it was about 2mm out when checked with a roofing square. That was the best that we could get.....how annoying....It’s a good job that it is only a workshop.   
See the clamped up frame below, with the angled cramp in position. I had to split it to allow the middle clamp to be on the top.






TAFN.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## billybuntus

2mm is acceptable in my world. Its taken me a while to accept that wood does not behave sometimes.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":29z99fbp said:


> I did a dry run and there was an error which required an angled brace to pull it straight.
> But, when glueing up, it was about 2mm out when checked with a roofing square. That was the best that we could get.....how annoying....It’s a good job that it is only a workshop.
> TAFN.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



Not to worry, Dick. Any visitors will be distracted by the fact that your round windows are 3 mm off center.

Anon, ducking behind the Inspector Pheasant's clipboard...


----------



## Cegidfa

Morning Billy and Kirk,

I should have made it clear that the 2mm referred to, over the length of the square, which is about 18" long. Over the six plus feet of the door that will amount to rather more than 2mm :shock: I will know the awful truth later when the clamps are removed. :wink: 
Perhaps, if I made the frame a parallelogram too, there would not be a problem :idea: 

Inspector Pheasant never came back to do the next stage inspection, I shall have to contact the Building Dept. I fear that he may be lining someone’s stomach....  
I suspect that a number of people would wish for the same fate for theirs.....or is that the Planning Dept. :twisted: :twisted: 

Regards....Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, you have to stop mixing your units. What are you trying to do--crash a Mars probe? Besides, if you have to you can square up the door with a hand plane. Umm--you have a hand plane, don't you? 

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

You cheeky young whipersnapper, of course I have a plane. It's 15" long and ideal for banging in big nails (hammer) :shock:  
Using imperial and metric units together is a sign that a person is of a certain age; that is, he was around during the seventies, at the time of conversion.
Unfortunately, our tape measures still show both units, so it is common to still use either. Especially when measuring the size of something, as opposed to marking something to a specific length. Also, even though sheet material is classified as 2440mm x 1220mm, this is a direct conversion from 8' x 4' which is what most people would still ask for at the builders' merchant.
It's the same with temperature; I always use Centigrade, since the switch, but our friends resolutely cling to using Fahrenheit. They couldn't get on with this 'foreign stuff' until I pointed out that Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit was born in Poland....I despair.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":2441uv1m said:


> Hi Kirk,
> 
> You cheeky young whipersnapper, of course I have a plane. It's 15" long and ideal for banging in big nails (hammer) :shock:
> Using imperial and metric units together is a sign that a person is of a certain age; that is, he was around during the seventies, at the time of conversion.
> Unfortunately, our tape measures still show both units, so it is common to still use either. Especially when measuring the size of something, as opposed to marking something to a specific length. Also, even though sheet material is classified as 2440mm x 1220mm, this is a direct conversion from 8' x 4' which is what most people would still ask for at the builders' merchant.
> It's the same with temperature; I always use Centigrade, since the switch, but our friends resolutely cling to using Fahrenheit. They couldn't get on with this 'foreign stuff' until I pointed out that Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit was born in Poland....I despair.
> 
> Regards...Dick.


Hey, at least you say Centigrade. I refuse to have Celsius crammed down my throat and I used to be a weather man.

Kirk


----------



## flying haggis

Re mixing measurements, I worked with a chippy who favoured a 1 metre folding rule and he would ask for timber to be cut to (for example) 1metre 13and a half inches!!!!!! Bloody difficult to measure with the extending rule that I preferred.


----------



## wcndave

I've been trying to persuade my Italian chums of the benefits of imperial. Just ask them to divide 1 cm10 times ;-) 

Then to add up various fractions of a cm.

Also they now understand why their ply comes in 19, 12.5 and 6mm thicknesses, (roughly)


----------



## dedee

wcndave":rye5ohou said:


> Also they now understand why their ply comes in 19, 12.5 and 6mm thicknesses, (roughly)



and presumably in sheets 2.4m x 1.2m?



Andy


----------



## wcndave

But slightly oversize...


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Kirk, you seem to have started something that could run for a long time.
One would never think that we allegedly, went metric in 1971.
Only in Britain could we design such a convoluted system.
I am reminded of the late Diz Dizley who, when finishing a song that he considered to be tripe,(he, actually being a jazz guitarist of the Django school) would say,’ it may be rubbish, but it’s British rubbish.’ 

I thought that I would show you the doors just stood in the frame, to show the progress to date.






I can just hear Dibs exclaiming that the frame is far too lightweight, given the care that he took with his doorway; and on reflection, perhaps I should have used slightly thicker stock. But as I have said before, we don’t seem to suffer from scrotes trying to liberate our worldly goods.

Hello dedee, 

Glad to to see that you are another Leopard user.

Hello Dave,

You live in a lovely part of Italy (not that we have been to a bad part yet). I have been to Bolzano, which I think, is about 20 miles from you. The architecture and surrounding hills are beautiful.

TTFN....Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, how thick is the wood in the door itself? Looks like 3/4"/19.05 mm [to continue the thread diversion--and that .05mm will really help structurally]. I'd consider that way too light for anything other than screens, let alone glass panels. Maybe I'm just in for the overkill, but I'd think that's going to twist a lot (possibly breaking the glass), sag under the weight, and get slammed in a good wind (also possibly breaking the glass). The pine _looks_ good, though.

Kirk

--Django Reinhardt: A French-speaking Belgian-born Gypsy with a German last name playing American music.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

The doors are made from 4" x 2" nominal, actually 95mm x 45mm, and the frame is a nominal 6" x 1". The idea was to not reduce the opening space. I usually go for the 'can I swing two grannies' from whatever I am doing. But this time ....... I blame the banging of my head repeatedly on the overhead beams for dislodging some of my marbles. :shock: If I fix the frame with enough screws, I am sure it will hold.....If not I will redo it and shave the doors down. :wink: I can feel my dad saying 'what the hell are you playing at, do it properly.' [-X So I will 'boldly go' (mangling the English language on the way) to a new frontier of slenderness in building design.....cough.  

Regards...Dick.
PS. I forgot to mention that the hinge screws will be long enough to go through the door frame and into the construction timber. Essentially making the frame now't more than a standoff so that the doors can open properly.

I don't know what kind of music that you like, but have you listened to any Django Reinhardt? Given that it was in the 1930's, ie. the Swing era, it certainly lived up to it's name. Now if I could get anywhere near that standard of playing, I would die a happy man. We did see, many years back, Stephane Grappelli (Django's partner) backed by Diz Dizley. Given his age, he could still do the biz. :-({|= :-({|= \/


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":cq8rbjvi said:


> Hi Kirk,
> 
> The doors are made from 4" x 2" nominal, actually 95mm x 45mm, and the frame is a nominal 6" x 1". The idea was to not reduce the opening space. I usually go for the 'can I swing two grannies' from whatever I am doing. But this time ....... I blame the banging of my head repeatedly on the overhead beams for dislodging some of my marbles. :shock: If I fix the frame with enough screws, I am sure it will hold.....If not I will redo it and shave the doors down. :wink: I can feel my dad saying 'what the hell are you playing at, do it properly.' [-X So I will 'boldly go' (mangling the English language on the way) to a new frontier of slenderness in building design.....cough.
> 
> Regards...Dick.



That door should be plenty beefy, then, as long as the FeStool holds up. (TransAtlantic note: I notice all you guys say 4 x 2, whereas we always say 2 x 4, pronounced and sometimes spelled tubafour or tubafur. Our 2x4's are 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" actual size, so run smaller than what you're using.)

I've listed to a little Django, but I'm not a jazz guy. I can listen to big band music, but that's barely jazz as the aficianados understand it. My tastes are broad ranging (my shop CD player over the weekend held both the Ventures (60's surf music) and BR549 (90's alt country)), but not universal.

Kirk


----------



## xy mosian

Dick, Kirk, sorry to butt in. I too saw Stephane Grappelli (Django's partner) backed by Diz Dizley alnog with John Ethbridge? That must have been about 71/72. Fantastic evening.
xy
p.s. keep up the good work


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

Having done some research, I failed to find any cultural references as to the 2 x 4 - 4 x 2 mystery. Over here, four by two is cockney rhyming slang for Jew; so given that you are all ‘voters’, and with a large Jewish population, perhaps it was changed to reflect the equality of all migrants to the US? Thus leaving behind the prejudices of the ‘old world.’ =D> 

Ahh the Ventures ..... I was suddenly a teenager again. :wink: I managed to see Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley in the flesh.. :shock: not that much flesh. Sadly, they weren’t that good live. But John Lee Hooker was, along with Howling Wolf and his guitarist Hubert Sumlin.

I had not heard of BR549 before, but after listening to Out of Habit, Cherokee Boogie and Me ‘N’ Opie, we thoroughly enjoyed them, and Diane has put one of their CDs on her wish list. Thanks for that. It’s ideal ‘shop music.

Hello xy,

Feel free to butt in any time. The other name with Diz Dizley rang a bell, he is actually John Etheridge, so you were close ... after all that time. =D> 
Are you a ‘closet’ guitarist perchance?  

I must away and measure the weight of the doors and using the other round window, work out the combined weight so that I can order the right hinges.

TTFN...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":d7aq4m7h said:


> I can just hear Dibs exclaiming that the frame is far too lightweight, given the care that he took with his doorway; and on reflection, perhaps I should have used slightly thicker stock. But as I have said before, we don’t seem to suffer from scrotes trying to liberate our worldly goods.



  - Yes it does look a tad bit thin at a nominal 1" thick. 

Problem with a thin frame is that if the door is (too) heavy the frame will distort coming away from the opening and causing issues.

Probably more suited for an internal frame. Having said that - if the opening is framed in timber, which yours is, then it might not be such an issue as you'd screw into the timber framing, even for the hinge screws. As long as you don't end up shimming the frame too much and creating larger gaps between the framing and the back of the door frame. Depends on the weight of the doors ultimately.

But then again - my workshop door weighed somewhere in the region of 75KG. :shock: 

Dibs


----------



## xy mosian

Hi Dick, sadly not a 'closet Guitarist. You have me thinking though. If John Etheridge is Diz Dizley who was the guy showing Diz how to play guitar? I'm not a great Jaz fan, but when the opportunity to hear someone of the likes of Stephan Grapelli comes along, I'll take it with both hands.
xy


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

Having weighed a door and the round window, which is about the same area of glass as one of the openings, the total weight should be no more than 30kg, so I think that all will be well, as the hinge screws will go into the building frame. The door frame is a good fit in the hole too. I may have to cut the shims on a microtome. :shock: 

Can I just say that I am very glad that my doors won’t weigh 75kg, as I wouldn’t be able to lift them - not being butch like yourself. I was thinking of entering the Mr Punyverse competition, but realised that I was too underdeveloped.  

Having just ordered the hardware for the doors, I am in shock. The bill came to £258 and that doesn’t include the ‘spaniel locking for the ‘front’ door. :shock:  
I am having great difficulty tracking down a ‘spaniel with the right form. I would like one that fits in the door, not on the door. I also wanted it to have a mid point securing, with a bolt at the top and bottom going into the frames, not to mention, fitting a door that measures 1873mm. Multipoint systems usually have an amount that can be removed to fit the door height, but the only one that I have found would leave the handle in a higher than usual position. This would look rather odd, and not what I want at all. The problem stems from the door being the right height for Hobbits; the result of being limited to 4m and having a gambrel roof...ho hum. 

Tomorrow, I will be mostly fitting the door frame, time to get the grease out again.
Yesterday, we had taken the 12’ entrance gate off to grease the drop on hinges, when the Tesco delivery arrived (it’s cheaper to have a delivery here than travel to the nearest town and lose some life shopping). 
Only out here, would the driver give me a hand to relocate the gate. =D> Without being asked.

Hello xy,

Err, I am a little confused, you seemed to be saying that John Etheridge is Diz Dizley. :shock:  
Having seen Diz in the seventies, he could play like Django then (snarl). Would you mind having another go please.  

TTFN...Dick.


----------



## xy mosian

Sorry Dick, just re-read your post, which I totally mis-read earlier . Just put it down to rust in the cranium. Ok! So the 'backing' group included Diz Dizley and John Etherbridge. That has saved me no end of trawling through whatever information I could find on t'web, saved me from endless diversions as well. I rest easier. Good, thanks.

xy


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":36of7nsa said:


> Hi Dibs,
> 
> Having weighed a door and the round window, which is about the same area of glass as one of the openings, the total weight should be no more than 30kg, so I think that all will be well, as the hinge screws will go into the building frame. The door frame is a good fit in the hole too. I may have to cut the shims on a microtome. :shock:
> 
> Can I just say that I am very glad that my doors won’t weigh 75kg, as I wouldn’t be able to lift them - not being butch like yourself. I was thinking of entering the Mr Punyverse competition, but realised that I was too underdeveloped.
> 
> Having just ordered the hardware for the doors, I am in shock. The bill came to £258 and that doesn’t include the ‘spaniel locking for the ‘front’ door. :shock:
> I am having great difficulty tracking down a ‘spaniel with the right form. I would like one that fits in the door, not on the door. I also wanted it to have a mid point securing, with a bolt at the top and bottom going into the frames, not to mention, fitting a door that measures 1873mm. Multipoint systems usually have an amount that can be removed to fit the door height, but the only one that I have found would leave the handle in a higher than usual position. This would look rather odd, and not what I want at all. The problem stems from the door being the right height for Hobbits; the result of being limited to 4m and having a gambrel roof...ho hum.



Dick

The prices of the locks\hardware on my door weren't any less and possibly slightly more. :wink: 

Dibs

p.s. Is that 30Kg per door or both?


----------



## flying haggis

Hi Cegidfa

Re multi point locks have you seen this site



http://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=l&ai=CM ... cks.co.uk/

Mila seen to do what you want


----------



## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":7juu27ov said:


> Having just ordered the hardware for the doors, I am in shock. The bill came to £258 and that doesn’t include the ‘spaniel locking for the ‘front’ door. :shock:
> TTFN...Dick.



Holy Cr*p, Dick! What are they, hand forged with silver inlay? Shoot, I picked up a box of NOS industrial fire door hinges at an auction for $5--if I'd known I'd have offered to send them over, since I'll probably never use them.

What's spaniel locking? A dog on a chain next to the door? (Seriously--Google only talked about dogs when I looked it up.)

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":3izff22y said:


> Cegidfa":3izff22y said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having just ordered the hardware for the doors, I am in shock. The bill came to £258 and that doesn’t include the ‘spaniel locking for the ‘front’ door. :shock:
> TTFN...Dick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Holy Cr*p, Dick! What are they, hand forged with silver inlay? Shoot, I picked up a box of NOS industrial fire door hinges at an auction for $5--if I'd known I'd have offered to send them over, since I'll probably never use them.
> 
> What's spaniel locking? A dog on a chain next to the door? (Seriously--Google only talked about dogs when I looked it up.)
> 
> Kirk
Click to expand...


Hi Kirk

What Dick means is a "espagnolette", i.e.

http://www.locksonline.com/acatalog/esp ... 13455.html

most of us have trouble pronouncing the word - so just abbreviate it to "spaniel". :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello xy,

I don’t know which age bracket you are in, so either, welcome to the club - or, my condolences. :wink: 
I think that we all have days like that; just accept the fact that your marbles are not as tightly packed as they used to be, and you will be fine. 
It’s just nice to know that we have a shared memory of pleasant times.  

Hi Dibs,

Thanks for trying to ease my pain. We visited our local supplier before ordering online and the price for a Union 5 lever lock assembly was over £30, online it was £18. So I do feel somewhat mollified.
To my amazement, the order arrived at 8.30 this morning; it was ordered at about 4pm yesterday. Well done Ironmongery Direct =D> ....but please do something about your webshite, :evil: unless it’s a Mac thing. The downloads are all .aspx, which won’t open on a Mac. It took a fair bit of searching to realise that all I needed to do was change the extension to .pdf :twisted: 
Yes, the doors will weigh 30kg each. If that had been for both I would have had Kirk pulling my leg about making them of balsa wood. :shock:  

Hello flying haggis,

Thanks for the link, I hadn’t found that one, and blow me down, I was looking at a Mila assembly on the ID site. That was the one with the .aspx extension mentioned above.


Hi Kirk,

You probably pay less for ironmongery over there, but I did get the following for my painful withdrawal. :shock: :roll: 

12 /120kg stainless steel hinges with bearings.
12/ hinge locks.
6/ rack bolts.
1/ good quality deadlock
4/ locking window handles. 

Sorry, I should have explained. ‘spaniel is my corruption of espagnolette or multi point locking. Oops, Dibs has beaten me to it.

TTFN......DIck.


----------



## Tony Spear

xy mosian":vlx7z64x said:


> Sorry Dick, just re-read your post, which I totally mis-read earlier . Just put it down to rust in the cranium. Ok! So the 'backing' group included Diz Dizley and John Etherbridge. That has saved me no end of trawling through whatever information I could find on t'web, saved me from endless diversions as well. I rest easier. Good, thanks.
> 
> xy



Unfortunately, Diz died in 2010, in poverty as one would expect from his lifestyle!
George Melly once described him as "a cheerful Satyr".
It was actually through him that Grapelli's career was revived in the early 70's, but inevitably, they fell out in the late 70's.
It was extraordinary that Diz was equally popular in both the Jazz and Folk scenes.
I still remember him taking part (complete with bottle of Brandy) in a Guitar Workshop at the Norwich folk festival, when he said "all guitarists are waiting......and for what are we waiting, I hear you ask? We're all waiting for the return of Skiffle, so we can once again afford to pull nice crumpet and drive around in ******* Facel Vegas".

edted to add: 
In my mind's eye, I can see him now, saying "now, this song has a chorarse. If you know the chorarse, please fell free to join in. If you don't know the chorarse I'm sure you'll pick it up as we go along!


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Tony,

Yes I was aware of his demise; I have his obituary on file, how sad is that.
He certainly was a character. I remember him saying once, that someone had ‘liberated’ his Maccaferri, and that if he ever found them, he would liberate them from their testicles. =D> =D> 

Chorarse...that brings back memories. The other thing that he would do was ‘co-opt’ the resident to back him whilst he had a ‘Django blast,’ the resident usually being ill equipped to do this. And do you remember Bloody Orkney? One thing is certain, there will never be another like him, with that bizarre blend of material.

Regards..Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

I will trow a spanner in the works here.

BRING BACK THE HINGES. THEY ARE OLD SCHOOL.

especially for haning double doors . do not use them PLEASE - they will be the dead of you

for double doors i have been using columbus 3d hinges. and they give you all the flexibility to get your doors lined up 100% with equal space all arround. - 

please see below for the link

http://www.locksonline.com/acatalog/col ... -7459.html


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":2k602w3v said:


> I will trow a spanner in the works here.
> 
> BRING BACK THE HINGES. THEY ARE OLD SCHOOL.
> 
> especially for haning double doors . do not use them PLEASE - they will be the dead of you



Bit early for a drink isn't it? :shock: :lol: :lol:


----------



## andyacg

hi dick. with regards to your search for a door lock, you could save a good few quid by going into your local upvc window installer. knowing the industry well the amount of cock ups demanded we always kept spare door and window espags on hand. dont pay more than £25 for a decent Hookbolt 7 point door lock. keeps may be extra but they may throw them in for you.


----------



## Mcluma

Dibs-h":358nkzvi said:


> Mcluma":358nkzvi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will trow a spanner in the works here.
> 
> BRING BACK THE HINGES. THEY ARE OLD SCHOOL.
> 
> especially for haning double doors . do not use them PLEASE - they will be the dead of you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bit early for a drink isn't it? :shock: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...



did i miss something :?:


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":1m0b3vmp said:


> Dibs-h":1m0b3vmp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mcluma":1m0b3vmp said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will trow a spanner in the works here.
> 
> BRING BACK THE HINGES. THEY ARE OLD SCHOOL.
> 
> especially for haning double doors . do not use them PLEASE - they will be the dead of you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bit early for a drink isn't it? :shock: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> did i miss something :?:
Click to expand...


Sorry Chris - I was just having a bit of a laugh at your expense. Your post read as you'd had a few drinks and were slurring your words.

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

No problem, always here to amuse people


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Chris,

I assume you meant, ‘send back the hinges.’ And this from a man with a massive vocabulary of Dutch - all six words. :wink: 

Unfortunately, they were already fitted by the time that I read your post, but many thanks for the link. They look the bee’s knees, but it would have cost £450 for two sets of double doors. :shock: That is a tad too expensive for me.

Hello andyacg,

Thanks for the tip.....now if only I had a ‘local’ anything; just a minute, that why I moved here - to get away from the rat race.  

However, whilst searching for the ‘spaniels, I came across a post on here about this very subject. It seems that a lot of pros don’t think that much of them, especially on wooden doors. Warping being one problem, the other, is the security of cylinder locks in general.
The preferred option being deadlocks top and bottom, with a sashlock in the middle, all using the same key, for convenience. I had better watch out as Dibs was one who disapproved of cylinder locks.   

Whilst waiting for the inevitable filler to dry (a telling indictment of my wood mangling skills) we worked on trying to get as much liner and underlay out of the now defunct pond as was possible. Given that there is a mix of soil, pebbles and now, a thick bed of grass....Ok, it got away from us. We tried forking the liner, but with so much dross in the bottom, it was impractical.

The object being, to fill it in and create a mini woodland walk with bulbs and hellibores, etc.
The pond is/was 8m x 5.3m x 1m deep. It occurred to us that, on its own, it was larger than our old garden. :shock: 

Whilst trying to fork the liner, unfortunately, Diane came up with a frog on the fork...oops. :-& 
And this after ejecting at least a dozen frogs and a few toads.






Being me, a tune from the seventies came to mind.....by Lindisfarne.

So, all together.....



‘Frog on the tine is all mine, all mine.’ 

Sorry, I couldn’t resist it.
I suspect that I will have to explain that one to Kirk.

TTFN.......Dick.


----------



## andyacg

i wouldnt worry about using a euro cylinder. not many opportunist tea leafs will carry a "bump" key. rather than worry about high end locks just get a large dog.


----------



## xy mosian

Cegidfa":1dbt5twq said:


> Hello Chris,
> 
> I assume you meant, ‘send back the hinges.’ And this from a man with a massive vocabulary of Dutch - all six words. :wink:
> 
> Unfortunately, they were already fitted by the time that I read your post, but many thanks for the link. They look the bee’s knees, but it would have cost £450 for two sets of double doors. :shock: That is a tad too expensive for me.
> 
> Hello andyacg,
> 
> Thanks for the tip.....now if only I had a ‘local’ anything; just a minute, that why I moved here - to get away from the rat race.
> 
> However, whilst searching for the ‘spaniels, I came across a post on here about this very subject. It seems that a lot of pros don’t think that much of them, especially on wooden doors. Warping being one problem, the other, is the security of cylinder locks in general.
> The preferred option being deadlocks top and bottom, with a sashlock in the middle, all using the same key, for convenience. I had better watch out as Dibs was one who disapproved of cylinder locks.
> 
> Whilst waiting for the inevitable filler to dry (a telling indictment of my wood mangling skills) we worked on trying to get as much liner and underlay out of the now defunct pond as was possible. Given that there is a mix of soil, pebbles and now, a thick bed of grass....Ok, it got away from us. We tried forking the liner, but with so much dross in the bottom, it was impractical.
> 
> The object being, to fill it in and create a mini woodland walk with bulbs and hellibores, etc.
> The pond is/was 8m x 5.3m x 1m deep. It occurred to us that, on its own, it was larger than our old garden. :shock:
> 
> Whilst trying to fork the liner, unfortunately, Diane came up with a frog on the fork...oops. :-&
> And this after ejecting at least a dozen frogs and a few toads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being me, a tune from the seventies came to mind.....by Lindisfarne.
> 
> So, all together.....
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Frog on the tine is all mine, all mine.’
> 
> Sorry, I couldn’t resist it.
> I suspect that I will have to explain that one to Kirk.
> 
> TTFN.......Dick.



Where is the smiley for inwardly groaning when you need it.
xy


----------



## flying haggis

Being me, a tune from the seventies came to mind.....by Lindisfarne.

So, all together.....



‘Frog on the tine is all mine, all mine.’ 

Sorry, I couldn’t resist it.


My sort of humour  =D>


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, when you go frog gigging in your parts, do you need a fishing license, or a hunting license? Because in some places it's one thing, and in other places it's the other.

Kirk


----------



## No skills

andyacg":236mzb0o said:



> i wouldnt worry about using a euro cylinder. not many opportunist tea leafs will carry a "bump" key. rather than worry about high end locks just get a large dog.



No bump key needed, hammer and screwdriver or bolster chisel (both for the well tooled scrote  ). Cant agree enough about the large dog tho, just make sure its trained only to take food from you and the other half.

This is a lovely lovely build, dont spoil it with rubbish locking gear.


----------



## Cegidfa

Morning andyacg,

In this ongoing debate about security, there is one thing to remember. For the last year, the only security has been a lift off wooden frame with plastic fixed to it. :shock: :shock: :wink: 

Hi xy,

You are far too sofisticated for this column........but I like you. (for the younger amongst you, this is a reference to the late Dick Emery). :shock: :lol: :lol: 

Hello flying haggis,

When it comes to humour, I think that xy would regard us as bottom dwellers. Well, we were in a pond at the time..... I can hear xy fiercely sighing as I write. :lol: :lol: 

Hello Kirk,

Now there’s a change; I had to look up gigging. :-& :-& :-& Need a licence, I should think/hope that it is illegal over here. We need our frogs to fight the army of slugs and such in the garden.

Hello No skills,

Thank you for the kind words. As it happens, it would be cheaper to use three mortice locks than one multi lock. Not to mention, no routing. :wink: 

I have now got two coats of paint on the doors and frame, and the glass has arrived. Typical of me, I forgot to mark both doors for relative position so that the keep can be fitted in the right place. :roll: 
So they will have to be hung yet again...doh. Yesterday I fitted the the lower chord 50x50 to the other overhang, ready for the 9mm ply cladding. I do wonder whether I should have bothered with this process, but it gives the overhang some 'substance.' Any views out there on this?

TTFN....Dick.


----------



## dlowry_uk

Hi Dick,
I'll be starting my build soon, and have a couple of questions about building the wall framing. I see you used a Makita impact driver. What model was it, and was it much better than using a cordless drill/driver? I'm baulking a bit at the cost for something I may not use much afterwards, but with a 5m x 4m frame, I'd consider it if it really makes life a lot easier  I'll also be on the lookout for a Festool saw/guiderail kit, as thats something I will definitely use afterwards.

Secondly, how did you fix the studs - screwed through the top/bottom plates into the stud ends, or skew-screwed in the other direction? 

Finally, I'm awed by the job you've done on the workshop, and I'm going to shamelessly copy a lot of your methods =D> 

Regards
Drew


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Drew,

Did you get my return PM, or did I not press enough buttons? :roll: 
I bought the 14.4v BTD130F impact driver and the BHP343 drill driver as a set.
It’s very handy to have one ready to pre drill some holes when required.

If you have never used an impact driver, you are in for a shock. Boy, are they efficient! :shock: 
They do require a small learning curve, as they are brutally fast, but one learns to ‘feather’ the trigger. After using one and getting comfortable, you will never go back to a drill/driver - they are so pedestrian.  You do need to press into the screw more firmly, as the vibrations will make it cam out.

As to the Festool, you will wonder how you ever managed before. They are a dream to use, and you will soon realise why they cost so much - they are just so much better engineered. Do get the two clamps that are an optional extra. I bought the ratchet set. For board that is flat, the guide rail will stick fast. It requires an act of faith to believe that it won’t move. But, for warped board, definitely use them.

For the studs, I screwed through the plates (two per stud), far more efficient than skew screwing. Make up the frames on the concrete base - Jack up the first on spare 4 x 2, then build the rest off the completed ones. It’s kinder on the back. This process goes amazingly fast, and gives one a real boost.

Feel free to copy our methods. They in turn, are mostly from the TRADA manual on timber frame building. The rest are from the ‘ how the hell are we two going to get that 40kg lump up onto the roof’ school of thought. At this point one turns to the ‘McLuma’ (Chris) philosophy of ‘everything is possible.’

Good luck with the project...Onwards and upwards.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## dlowry_uk

Hello Dick,
Yes I did get your PM, many thanks. I'm trying to source the tools in the UK, as they are WAY more expensive in France. Factoring out the exchange rate, major brand power tools here are about 50% more expensive. Its generally much cheaper to pay the delivery charges from the UK, even for heavy items. Not many UK suppliers deliver to mainland Europe, but thankfully Axminster does, and they carry a pretty comprehensive Festool range. I'm getting a kit with saw, guiderails and vacuuum, a driver/drill kit similar to yours, and a few other odds and ends. Scary for the bank balance, but I generally justify such things by comparing how much it would cost to pay for someone else to do the work..

Regards
Drew


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Ok, so fitting doors and hardware is patently not my forte, it being nearly a month since the last update.

Everything that can foul up did! To fit the hinges, I used the Dremel with a baby router base to cut the depth accurately. Then the incline was cut to reduce the hinge gap to about 2mm.
I should mention that prior to fitting the hinges, whilst waiting for the delivery of hardware, I foolishly painted the doors and fitted the windows...what a dope. My impatience will be the death of me.  
This meant that we were struggling with over 50kg per door, which is not easy for us. In the end, having had the doors on and off a few times for hinge standoff adjustment, they were looking ok. Now to mark and fit the Chub security bolts. A simple job; put some masking tape on the door frame, and operate the lock, drill the 16mm hole, and fit the keep. The door now rattles about so much that the gasketing won’t compress sufficiently. So, plug hole and re-drill with a 13mm bit - good fit now. So much for the instructions. Now for the bottom set. At this point I must have unwittingly swapped my head for a cabbage. :shock: I pulled the doors to, against a block of wood, marked and drilled the ‘now’ 13mm hole. Does it fit..does it heck? I now assume that it needs to move outwards (without checking) and trim the holes back to no avail...err, perhaps it needed to go right or left? I fitted some tape to the hole and gently marked the position, and realised that it needed to move to the left a bit. It now fits like a p.... in a bucket. Excuse my factory language. So I now have two holes in the oak sill that are too large. I must point out that at this stage I hadn’t fitted the door stops.....don’t ask why. So I set to and milled some oak into the desired size and pushed it against the 'loosely' locked doors, only to find out that that they were way out of line with each other at the bottom. At this point I decided that it was high time to refit the head.  
Then, I made two plates out of stainless steel to cover the now, vast chasms. 
I had previously bought some brass pins, and these were fitted to hold the oak against the doors tightly, with Diane pushing from the outside. Use the same procedure to mark and drill two 13mm holes. This time, the procedure worked and the doors lock with no rattling at all. The stop was then moved out 3mm to allow for the gasket,
and the rest of the stops were fitted.

The next day, it having rained overnight, we found that water had run down the door and blown under (and this is the sheltered end). It was then that I thought that maybe, I should have fitted a deflector with a drip groove. So, I set to and manufactured two and pinned and glued them on, having removed the paint that I had so carefully applied. :evil: 

The lower chord cladding has now been fitted and painted, so we will now move the scaff. back against the end ready for fitting the upper covers. 

The moral of this story is, never leave home wearing a cabbage, instead of your head.












Regards......Dick.


----------



## Charlie Woody

Glad to hear from you again Dick, I was only wondering last night how you were getting on. Sorry to hear about the "challenges" of fitting the doors, but it was worth is as they look good so well done.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick:

I'm sorry to hear you had so many problems. I wonder whether, instead of struggling with heavy doors, you could have made a mockup door edge, using the same measurements, and fitted that in place to get all your holes drilled correctly before actually mounting the door itself.

Why did you have the doors open outward? For that size of building, I would have thought having them open inward would have been a more typical choice.

Nice work. Good luck on the next stage.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Charlie,

Gosh, it’s nice to be missed - I could get used to this. :wink: 
I think that you have raised an interesting point. The door design couldn’t be any more simple, yet you find it pleasing. Do we sometimes try too hard when it comes to design?

Hi Kirk,

Yes, a storey pole, or rod, as I think they are called over here would have made life easier.
The reality is that I just wasn’t thinking straight. Combine this with impatience and a bad memory and elevated male chickens will surely follow. :shock: 

I have never been ‘typical’ in my life, always the awkward sod.  The W/S may be large, but with all the machines and a construction area, the space just gets eaten up. Thus it was decided to have the doors so that they could be hooked open outside, both for ventilation and moving long/large pieces in and out. It will be interesting to see if the Dominos hold up as a construction method for 50kg of finished door.

At this point, as the section is called ‘past mistakes’ as well, I ought to ‘fess up to the other, cough....design features of the doors.
Having fitted the glass using the butyl (now non removable) I was measuring up for the glazing bars and thought that 7mm was a bit thin. This meant that the outside ledge was 13mm wide. They should have been two 10mm widths...What a dipstick. So I now have to fit very thin but tall bars. Drilling pilot holes for the fixings was not easy, even with a drill press. I had some long steel roundhead pins, so they were chopped off and the point removed to stop splitting. This worked well, but the hammer was laying on the glass on a sheet of folded paper, finishing with a pin punch......Remove the paper...several scratches on the glass, too deep to polish out....Words fail me. :evil: :evil: 
At this point tradition says that the pin ends should be touched in with an oil based paint.
Do I want to drive 20 odd miles to get a paint that I don’t normally like using - so I filled the holes and now rust is permeating at several positions. To add further insult, Diane then reminded me that we had a can of eggshell paint for the bathroom hot tank doors...I want to cry. I now have the joyous task of trying to winkle out the filler, dob in some paint and then replace the filler...Oh, deep joy.

Just when I thought that it was safe to enter the W/S again, I found rain over one side of the left hand door sill. The butyl seal had let by on the upper left hand panel because we hadn’t pressed the glass hard enough to fully seal. If you remember the glass fitting saga on the round window, we warmed the mastic using the underfloor heating in the conservatory, and then did a ritual dance together. Will I ever learn. Luckily, the other three panels have a good seal. So we will wait for the water to dry out and try to refinish the outside. I should have listened to Dibs’ prophetic words when he said that he added a silicone seal to his windows.......
We were just carried away with the success of the first window. :roll: 

The only good thing about all this is that the next set of doors will be the most used ones. So hopefully we, that is, I, will have made enough mistakes so that the next time things will go more smoothly.

A thoroughly chastened faux wood mangler. And to think that you all thought that I knew what I was doing.... :-" :-" ](*,) ](*,) :sign3: 

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Just a small, between showers, update.
We have managed to cut the hole and foam round the ring, using the same method as last time. At the moment, we have clad about one third of the way up the ring, but rain stopped play. 











In the absence of any progress, I thought that you might be interested in the bathroom refurb that we did before the workshop. Typically, I forgot to record the ‘before'.

We wanted to make it warm and cosy, so we started off sticking 70mm of celotex to the two outside walls. Before ever embarking on this, it is wise to have lived in a house long enough to be familiar with it’s idiosyncrasies. That is to say, if the walls are ever damp, don’t do it, as the brickwork will deteriorate if the moisture can’t escape inwards. This happens in our bedroom, and the first thing that we have to do is repoint the end of the house, and then see if that will cure it.

Because the bathroom is an add-on to a 1½ height house, the roof impinges into the room.
This means that a shower built into the corner will have a low ceiling. To limit the damage to my head, I built a stud wall 300mm away from the sloping wall and filled it with fibreglass insulation. This has given a pretty good u-value to the west wall, which gets all the bad weather. Then, another stud wall was built out to encase the shower, and create a cupboard for the hot tank and solar water controls. The whole area was then clad in 12mm Hardiebacker board which is tough and waterproof.

Next, we built more studding on the other wall to give us a recess for a mirror, and to place things. And of course, to give some interest to a flat wall. The space was used to run the piping and was filled with insulation, on the premise that every little helps.

Then we had the joyous task of tiling the shower and one wall. I should point out that the shower is 1500 x 900, and will be used as a steam room as well. 
This necessitated building a stud wall down to the shower top, to contain the steam.

As the bathroom floor was lower than the hall, the difference was built up using Jumpax, a board system that reduces noise transmission and also evens out floor ‘fluctuations'.
The vinyl floor was laid and then we fitted the toilet and basin.











Shower corner with initial insulation.





Shower recess and solar tank. 





Jumpax flooring.





The opening looks a little bare in this picture; we now have a vase of flowers that keep the fish company and fills the space.
















Tiling this lot was a right job as the tiles were not all square, flat or all the same size.
And this after sending back half of the packs - they weren’t cheap either.
The company weren’t happy either because their entire stock was in the same state.

Ok, this should stop you getting bored for a while.....maybe.

Regards...DIck.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Nice looking bathroom, Dick. But, why do you have that big screen TV next to the toilet?





Seriously, though, no cabinets for towels & such? You've got lots of floor space. 

I like the tile stripe going up the wall.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

At last,

The cladding is finally finished. (hammer) (hammer) 






There is just the matter of finishing the bargeboard filling and painting.
I say filling, the boards were butted together and glued with dominos. Then we had torrential rain: I thought that gaps appeared as a result of drying and shrinking. #-o  
I seem to have the ability to reverse building science...why do I get the unwanted abilities, as opposed to something useful? :roll: 

The window circle has now had it’s outer ring pinned and glued on, so tomorrow I will be routing the curve over. Then the DG panel will be fitted to the frame. Having had the door panels leak, we will use the same technique as before - doing Zorba’s dance on the heated floor. The first window has never leaked, but now, all four door panels have.  :evil: :evil: 
This means that we will have to remove the doors and furniture, and use the same technique.......oh joy. 

Hello Kirk,

The idea is to sit on the ‘throne’ with a mirror, this worked well until I watched The Killing - in Danish, with sub titles...... :shock:  
‘No cabinets’... they will be fitted on the wall opposite the television. But there is the small matter of finishing the workshop to make them in. Then there is the matter of making a door......one has to whistle if we have company, but my daughter says that doors are for wimps. It certainly sorts the naturalists from the naturists....

It doesn’t show in the pic, but the stripes are composed of small individual irridescent tiles that look lovely on a sunny day.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dick, the shop clapboards looks good. How much interior work are you going to do after the window goes in? Have you started on the electrical work? Can you do it yourself, or are you required to use an electrician?

Also, I think for Halloween you need to get a picture of a giant eye and put it up over the window.

One last question on the bathroom: What's up with the water heater? I thought it was only us d*mn-the-environment-just-keep-it-cheap Americans who haven't gone to on-demand water heaters. (And, by the way, when I changed out my water heater last year, I checked prices and there was no way, during the lifetime of the heater, that an on-demand heater would ever have paid for itself.) Or maybe I've been reading too much German propaganda.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hello Kirk,

Thanks for that. The inside will have all the stud bays stuffed with fibreglass and then clad in 12mm ply. This will act as the frame stiffener (err, the ply, not the fibreglass) that I haven’t got on the outside. It will also make hanging cupboards easier, if I forget where the studs are.
I will do the electrical work myself, in fact, I should have done it as soon as the walls were clad in insulation. It would have saved running an extension lead every time I need power.
Don’t get me started on certification. :evil: After the abortion that the so called electricians made of our conservatory, and certified it, :twisted: :twisted: ( that I had to redo as it was illegal) I have no faith.
And to add insult to injury, they were Trustmark registered as well. I wouldn’t let them put a plug on....grrrr. See the disgrace below - and note that the bare cable would have been directly covered in render, so that the strong alkalai in the concrete could eat away at the PVC...nice. Not.






Typically, I forgot to take an after pic. Suffice it to say that I double set some more conduit to fit between the crudely hacked off end and the socket, as it should have been. Bare cable buried in plaster hasn't been recommended since I was an apprentice using the 14th edition of the electrical regulations (we are now on the 17th edition). Cowboys...pah. And to think that certification was supposed to stop the wearing of chaps and spurs.....

As for Halloween, it would be a great idea, apart from the fact that only we would see it. The joy of a 100m drive with a curve, and a single track road that goes nowhere. 
My old house had a drive that was 3 feet long from the council pavement to the front door; now there it might have worked.  

What’s up with the water heater? Perhaps you should try reading the British propaganda instead. :wink: The 300ltr tank is fed by the evacuated tubes in the pic below. The (German)LPG boiler hasn’t been used since March (except for a few odd days of torrential rain). It won’t be needed until November. And any sunny days in the winter will top up the bottom of the tank, thus leaving the boiler with far less work to do...He said, wearing his ecosmug hair shirt and non cow oriented footwear. :roll: whilst eating his bowl of muesli. :shock: :wink: 






The on-demand boiler system is known over here as a combi boiler. The principle sounds good, but as all water heaters have to be be condensing boilers over here, they will never be run long enough to achieve condensing mode, and therefore be far less efficient (which was the whole point of the design). :roll: 
This means that there will be a whole series of draw offs with the leftover water getting cold, and the boiler firing at max every time...this is not good for the long term health of the boiler, or one's pocket. As opposed to, perhaps, two one hour long firings a day to heat a tank, during which condensing mode will be achieved and make the boiler more efficient to run. We only need to run our boiler once a day, ever. And that’s not from eight in the morning to five at night, either, before you pull my other leg.  

Regards...Dick.


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## kirkpoore1

Thanks, Dick. It sounds like you know what you're doing on the electrical so you won't be at the mercy of others. (Well, except the inspector, of course.) I wired my basement shop and some extra stuff in my garage, but my wife made me use a pro for the shop--"I don't want you burning the house down!". He was quite good, but way underbid the job, even when I paid him $400 over his bid.

The on-demand water heaters here are tankless. Their alleged efficiency comes from not having a 80 gallons of hot water sitting in your basement--the water is heated as it is used. Of course, you have to size them for maximum flow, and if you exceed that, well, you ain't gettin' your hot shower. Lifespan in areas with hard water is only 10 years or so, and then you have to replace the whole unit, and professional installation is required. 

I don't know much about solar water heating around here. It may get too cold in the winter for a direct heat system, rather than running anti-freeze through a heat exchanger. Natural gas has gotten cheaper in the last few years due to new drilling techniques, so there is little talk of them. My parents have solar water panels on their roof, but they don't live in an area that goes much below freezing.

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Morning Kirk,

The inspector has fallen down on the job for the later inspections.
However, he he has had a distraction....see below.






Whilst he, as a male pheasant, is too busy looking good; she is quite bright.
We saw her flapping and jumping up under the feeder on several occasions. She had spotted the fat balls, and was dislodging some fat. So we rewarded her effort by lowering the holder to a suitable height. We were then treated to them standing one each side of the feeder, batting it back and forth. We are hoping that they bring the pheaslets when they arrive.

Our on-demand heaters started out tankless. But because of the regular draw offs, they have taken to fitting a small tank in the unit, to stop the constant firing. But, the boiler has to fire to keep the mini tank up to temp thus reducing savings. But this ‘feature’ can be turned off, which results in higher water usage. :roll: 
The reason that your units only last 10 years is probably due to the fact that, over there, if I remember rightly, the units are made of steel, whereas here, the good ones are made of stainless steel. Just wait for the arrival of condensing boilers, then you will see them last even less time. The condense is highly acidic; and when the drain froze in -18℃, the condense backed up into the boiler and ate away some of the fire clay/ceramic that lines the chamber. We have since, rerouted the pipework to comply with the German instructions - as opposed to the British plumbers way. See below, the boiler innards.











You won't suffer as many people did here with the above problem, as your pipework is all inside the house - for that very reason.


Regards...Dick.


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## kirkpoore1

I'm glad to see The Inspector is still around. It's good to have local color.

The reason the tankless units don't last long is that they fill with scale (calcium deposits) in areas with hard water. Since they're essentially a radiator working in reverse, small pipes give more surface area and thus more efficient heat transfer--until they clog up, that is. In many areas the manufacturer's recommend a water softening system, at much more expense, of course.

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

The end is nigh. :shock: 
We managed to get round the leaking problem (that we had with the doors) by laying the round window on the underfloor heating and turning it up high; then the sun came out and raised the conservatory temp to just under 40℃. After the wood and glass had warmed through, we Zorba’d it.  
The extra heat rendered the butyl very squidgy, so we were able to get a really good contact all the way round. When the room had cooled down, the squeeze out was knifed off and smoothed with white spirit.
After applying caulk round the stop, the window was dropped into the tube and four screws were used to fix it in place. The expanding gasket was then applied round the edge of the flange, see below. 







The assembly was hauled into place, and whilst I pressed the window back, Diane drove in the prefixed screws to hold the assembly in it’s final resting place. :wink: 






Just two more door to go, and the small matter of covering the join in the middle of the back wall, where the boards meet. We have a cunning plan for that.

We will use the ‘super heat’ method for the doors this time; and we will take off the first doors and use the same treatment to get a good seal, this time.
We will probably use Dib’s method, and run silicone round the interface as belt and braces.....but. the original round window has never let by, and that isn’t siliconed.
It was all down to not being able to squeeze a good enough seal on the doors in the first place that caused them to leak. Don’t ask why we didn’t use the same technique on the doors, as the window......... :duno: ](*,) 

Hi Kirk,
Having worked for Coke, I am fully aware of the calcium problem. (not to mention what Coke does to non s/steel parts of a filler :shock: ) I used to work on water softeners as big as my workshop, when they conked out.  
The reason that stainless steel is used is twofold. Firstly, the high acidic content of the 'condensing' action doesn't eat away the s/steel like it does steel and aluminium.
And secondly, the calcium doesn't stick to s/steel like it does to ordinary steel and copper. Thus the units last longer as they don't scale up so much. 

Regards...Dick.


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## MickCheese

Dick

That is looking fantastic, you should both be very proud of yourselves.

I am so impressed, both with the design and the actual build.

Regards

Mick


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## Cegidfa

Hello Mick

Thanks for the kind words. Whilst pride comes before a fall, we are quite chuffed with the way it sits in the surroundings. 
We did wonder if it would be a bit too showy for the Welsh countryside. But it just seems to fit in, and everyone who calls at the house comments on it.
I've even given the Tesco delivery man a tour because he was interested. :wink: 

Diane is taking me to Antiquera for a while - to see the Alhambra and Generalife Gardens, but I'm not sure if she is bringing me back :shock:  
So updates will be delayed. Then it's the last two doors, the back join cover (watch this space) and more insulation and lining.
And what are we doing now....designing more buildings for storage. :shock: One day we will be found face down in a trench, pickaxe in hand.  

Regards...Dick.


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## kirkpoore1

Dick, I'm going to refresh everyone's memory:

From this:





to this:





is what I call good execution. Have fun in Spain!

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Thanks Kirk, we will do our best. It's our first holiday for about six years, so it will be a welcome break.

Apart from the overhang supports, the extra roof window, and the double glass doors, it's pretty close to the sketchup drawing.  

Best wishes.......Dick.


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## Red

OK, holiday must be over by now! I want to know how you're getting on. Fascinating project


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## Halo Jones

> OK, holiday must be over by now!



I've been thinking the same thing. I hope all is okay with you both and you are either busy relaxing or just getting things done! 

H.


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## kirkpoore1

I bet Dick's knees are healing up from crawling to Compostela. Which is not to say he didn't stop for beer along the way.

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Morning all,

Rumours of our demise have been greatly exaggerated....  

Hello Red...you slave driver you  but I’m glad that you find it interesting.

Hello Halo...Thanks for the concern. We don’t do relaxing; the most that we could take of sitting by the pool and reading, would be three days, by which time we would be itching to get on with something. As I often say, we will be found face down in a trench at the age of ninety. :shock: :roll: 

Hello Kirk....Keep up the good work......   

Had I been crawling to Compostela, that would have been the reason for the long time since last posting. Compostela is a hell of a long way from Antiquera. It's a good job that I don't have a religious bone in my body - but the Grand Mosque in Cordoba was something else. =D> 

We have been rather busy in the garden. When we came back, the grass was about nine inches tall (honest) we hadn’t been able to cut it before, due to the excess of liquid sunshine. :evil: 
The mountain of clay that was the left over from the new leaching field run, has now been barrowed into the ex pond, and there is now a foot to go. The plan is to plant some more trees and create a ‘woody walk’. To that end we have removed the bridge over the (non working) waterfall and created a brick walkway so that we can get from the wood to the grass circle on the other side. This area was bordered by a large shrub bed that has now been pick axed clear. The circle will be enclosed by yet more trees, and is about twenty foot in diameter.




We just need to soften the edges with some planting.

Whilst in sunny Espania, we went to the Picasso museum in Malaga. Whilst interesting, what struck us was the terrace for the cafe. It was an oasis of peace in the middle of the city. We now intend to recreate this feel on what passes for a lawn, by the house. We have already changed the detail. The right hand end hedge will not happen. This will give use a 'drift' into the wooded area, and allow us better to see the blossom that will be there.




The bit down the centre of the left hand part is a very shallow ripple water feature.

Just a small job then......‘Woodwork’ you remind me....well, there is the pergola.  

I thought that you might be interested in seeing the workshop in its setting. We weren’t sure if it would work, but we feel very happy with the outcome. What do you think?.....Err, please don't think of this as a gloat; we still feel that we have won the lottery - in spite of the hard work.






There is still so more ‘garden management’ to carry out, but then it’s back to finishing the doors, before repointing the end of the house. The inside of the workshop will be finished in the colder months, as it was 34℃ yesterday. It will be interesting to see what ameliorating effect the insulation and roof ventilation will have?
Right, so it's off to the tip with the car stuffed to the gunnels (ok. gunwales for you pedants  ) with bags of grass clippings, with two more trips after that - we can't compostela that lot.....sorry Kirk. :roll: :wink: 

Regards...Dick.


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## Halo Jones

> Rumours of our demise have been greatly exaggerated....



Glad to hear it =D> 

I must say I am rather envious of all the space you have and your ideas look great. Your workshop also looks great in it's setting. You should build a summer house just so you can take in the view from where you took that picture (hammer) - and do a WIP!

H.


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## Triggaaar

Wonderful build. Love the skill in making those round windows, brilliant.


kirkpoore1":2seohmuv said:


> Dick, I'm going to refresh everyone's memory:
> 
> From this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to this:


Let's just hope he doesn't notice the extra window.


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## MickCheese

Gloat away, if I had built that myself I would feel I had a right to gloat.

Looking fantastic, you should be rightly proud of yourself.

I have thoroughly enjoyed watching you construct it too.

I think nearly 45000 hits says it all.

Mick


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## Mcluma

You did yourself proud =D> =D>


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## Grahamshed

You said it was going to be a workshop build with a difference. You were not joking. You could rent that place out as a holiday home  Looks wonderful.


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## Cegidfa

Hi folks,

Hello Triggaaar and Graham, welcome to the madness.  

Thanks for all the kind comments; we still can’t believe that two old farts like us could achieve that which we have. So, if we can do it, all the young ditherers out there - just go for it....... The only thing that you have to lose is your sanity....and a bank balance(d). :shock:  

Don’t forget that we had never used any of these ‘skills’ before. We just did some research and then ‘winged it’....learning as we went......But, we are both of a practical bent, so that helps.

We have had the grandchildren for the last two weeks, so we diverted from shed building to ‘rude hut building’ using wood that came down the river and withies cut from the riverside.

















It has occurred to us that if we cut some more a bit later, we can make a living yurt by plunging the the wythies into the ground in a circle and bending the tops and lash them together until they become one. Then just water and stand back...Watch this space.

Regards....Dick.


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## kirkpoore1

Cegidfa":gj021x6l said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> ... It has occurred to us that if we cut some more a bit later, we can make a living yurt by plunging the the wythies into the ground in a circle and bending the tops and lash them together until they become one. Then just water and stand back...Watch this space.
> 
> Regards....Dick.



Be sure to frame in openings for the skylights & round windows, Dick.

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

Hi Kirk,

Just for you.......one willow yurt with round windows - but no skylights, I will rely on dappled light through the gaps  






The sketchup drawing took longer to do than the the hut will in growing :shock: 
But, I have learned an amount about using rubies (plugins); boy, do they help with the 'tube' tasks...I hope that this means something to you - I don't know if you use sketchup?
My current fascination is with Sketchy Physics, this applies the rules of gravity to 'working' models, which the grandchildren found highly entertaining. 

Regards....Dick.


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## kirkpoore1

It's the little touches that make a house a home, Dick.

Sketchup and I are not on speaking terms. There is something about the way it works and the way I want to do things that are fundamentally at odds. I have tried using it several times and walk away more frustrated than the other drawing programs I've used, dating back to MacDraw and Corel. Maybe it's the 3D thing, maybe it's the push-pull thing, but I refuse to bow down to it's demands. I find myself usually going to paper, and then making plywood or hardboard patterns if it's production piece.

Kirk


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## Cegidfa

I started with Turbocad, which works well for 2D isometric type drawings, but in 3D it was hard work.
Sketchup is a bit of a learning curve, but I have found it invaluable over the years.
In the last ten years, everything that I have made has been visualised in Sketchup first. For me, it helps to hone the design until we are happy, and then in the building of the model,
snags that would occur in the real thing emerge, and can be delt with; thus saving time and material. This was particularly useful with the workshop build.
I can totally agree about wanting to work in a certain way, that the programme won't play ball with. But it is so useful, that I accomodate it's ideosyncracies.  

In comparison, Sketchyphysics is a nightmare ( that makes Sketchup feel a doddle) :shock:  , but when I get it right, it is a real sense of achievement.

Best wishes....Dick.


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## mailee

I have just finished catching up with your build Dick and have to say you have done an awesome job. What an interesting and entertaining build. Well done mate.


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## Cegidfa

Good morning Alan,

I'm glad that I was able to 'entertain' you  and as for awsome....from you, with your capacity for work and standard, is truly humbling  I can't help feeling that you would have had it finished in far less time...I wish that I had some of your drive and ability to stick to one job at a time, to add to my meagre amount  
As it happens, I had read about your 'shed build' on the Readers Shed forum, whilst deciding what and how to build. And blow me down if you weren't the first to reply to me when I joined this forum. Now there's coincidence.

Best wishes........Dick.


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## carlb40

Old thread i know. But having spent a good few hours reading this from the start. Hats off to you young sir and your good lady for such a fine build.


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## Cegidfa

Err, what happened to the time? I seem to have lost about five months!
In this time, the workshop hasn’t actually changed visually. However, I do have a door frame, two doors and four double glazed panels. All I need is the weather to be kind for long enough....and a good kick in the posterior. And lets not mention the pointing to the gable end, cough,cough.

I haven’t been totally idle though; so I thought that you may be interested in what we have been getting up to - even if it might stray from woodwork.

After hitting my head for the umpteenth time on our bedroom door frame, I decided that enough was enough, and something had to be done. The problem was that a tie beam ran from wallplate to wallplate directly above the frame.

See problem below.





Given that the mortar is 120 year old lime/sand, I had to find a way to support the bricks whilst removing enough to give good head clearance. I decided to use two straps of 3 x 1 fixed to the bricks with short masonry screws as a sort of clamp. It worked very well, and at the end, nothing above, was any more live than it had been. 

As usual Sketchup came to the rescue; see the idea below.





Because of the many layers, the screwing pattern had to be worked out in advance, to stop the screws colliding. I also glued the layers as well. 
Because the fixing screws for the tie beam were long, I had to remember to fit them in as I went, otherwise the assembly would have been a giant fail.

The bricks were then removed and the assembly stood in place and clamped. The screws were tapped down to mark the tie beam, and then the whole thing removed and pilot holes drilled, as the wood was pretty tough. Then a screw was put in each hole fully, to ‘tap’ the thread. I used a socket with ratchet to speed up the process.

Temporary support.





Next, the ‘bridge’ (or should that be Broen/Bron) was refitted, the screws lined up and cranked down.....now for ‘the moment of truth’ as a Matador would have said in less PC times. I used a new toy - the battery sabresaw. This was worth it’s weight in gold as it scythed through the wood with no effort on my part. 
As the blade broke through there was a botty pouting crack, which caused me to step back sharply, but nothing moved. On placing the blade in the kerf, the gap was no wider, so it was just the stress in the wood relieving. At which point I retired for some new underwear, and then cut the other side through. At last, I can now exit the bedroom with my head held high (homer) 

See the assembly finally fitted.





The next step was to make and fit a door frame and then clad the bridge in ply, and plaster the area vaguely level. I say vaguely, because plastering for me is an approximate skill - get it close and Mr Sander is my friend.

We have come to the conclusion that doors are vastly overrated, as neither the bedroom or bathroom have one, many months later. Our daughter, whom we tried to bring up to not be prudish, stated that ‘doors are for wimps’ so we must have done something right.

The finished job....ish.





I must apologise for the “carp” photos in this missive. Maybe I banged my head once too often (hammer)

More thrilling adventures to come - the en-suite revamp (unfinished) and the garden update (ongoing).
And will he ever finish the workshop.....or anything  :evil:

Doh, I forgot to say hello to Carl..err, hello Carl, thanks for the kind words. It was your message that jolted me back into posting again.


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## carlb40

Glad to see you back, your workshop build is one of the best i have seen. I really enjoyed reading your thread and all the banter within it


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## Noggsy

And me mate. I was only wondering last week where you were up to. How about a quick picture of the workshop as it is now to bring us up to speed?


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