# Impression on Iyoroi chisels



## whybob71 (14 Oct 2006)

What do you think about them? I like the withe-paper-steel Iyoroi, but, generally, they seems to be not so good......

http://www.ibiblio.org/japanwood/phpBB2 ... cee396af5b

May the LN chisels a better choice?


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## Ian Dalziel (15 Oct 2006)

Why bob,
It really depends on what type of work you are doing and what kind of woods you are working.........for general work i use a mix of stanley 750's and LN's, i hardly ever use my japanese chisels. Not sure why cause they are all sharp.... i think i just like the feel and balance of the 750's.

Kinda suppose whatever you are comfy with.

I copied the first reply below from the Japanes forums....

the guy has a good answer and worth reading. Although the question asked was slightly different to yours it still has some relevance



asking the question about why a certain number of chisels is needed is like asking an auto mechanic why they need more than one socket set. 

Depending upon what you do, fewer or greater number of tools can be the ideal. Some carvers use one tool pretty much exclusively, others have dozens of carving tools. Some chisels get used only occasionally, but like that odd size Torx driver you need to remove the headlight assembly on your Saab, when you need a certain specific tool and nothing else will do the job, it's jolly nice to have it. Some mechanics approach everything with a sledgehammer and a pair of rusty vice-grips, others have $25,000 Snap-on extravaganzas. 

I have some 40-50 chisels - I've lost count. Probably about 25% of them I use constantly, 50% of them I use frequently, and some I use occasionally. Some chisels I bought thinking I'd use them, like a corner chisel, or a swan-necked chisel, and then determined that i either didn't like them or didn't really have much used for them - so I sold 'em. 

What chisels to get depends upon what you do obviously. In my case, I do both timber framing and furniture making, so I have a set of heavy striking chisels, a regular set of bench chisels, and a set of paring chisels, along with some timber slicks. Added to that I have a small collection of assorted gouges, some specialized shoji chisels, and a small assortment of crank neck chisels. That does the job for me, but I could probably do 75% of the work with a 7 set of bench chisels. If one were making violins, or carving a certain type of duck and nothing else, then I'm sure the set of chisels would have some significant differences in make-up to what I have. 

You can make one tool work for a lot of things, or have specialized tools for a variety of applications. I tend to prefer the latter. I also prefer going to the car mechanic with lots of tools than to Bert down the road with the rusty vice grips approach. 

I know if I'm slugging out mortises in large timbers all day, my bench chisels are going to take rather more abuse than is wise. And taking a 48 mm heavy chisel to trim a tenon on a kumiko seems a bit absurd too. 

A similar question to this could be asked about how many sharpening stones to get, or how many planes. There is no one answer to that. 

I


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## David C (16 Oct 2006)

Iyoroi chisels come in a vast range of quality and cost.
His expensive ones were fantastic, Kingshott had a set, and two of my favorites are his.

I believe he was one of the first blacksmiths to mechanize some processes on his lower ranges to achieve higher production rates and reasonable cost.

I wonder if anyone else can comment on a problem that we encountered in the late 1980's / early 90's? With paring chisels in the £30 -40 range.

Some of the new long paring chisels (bought for students) which we had liked and used for some years started to misbehave as we flattened the backs. If a belly was present, as metal was removed on a coarse 800g waterstone, the back continued to curl away from flat, resulting in the complete disapearance of the hollow before we could get the backs flat. The bend was getting worse as we worked and removed metal!

It was sugested that he was rolling the two steel layers together instead of hammer forge welding, and that stored stresses in the composite were being released as we worked on the backs.

I am very keen to hear if anyone has experienced this problem with the current APTC long paring chisels?


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## whybob71 (16 Oct 2006)

Thanks a lot for the replay!  

The chisels I like are the Yioroi Chu-Gata Oire Nomi, withe paper steel, (blade length 60 mm, overall length 225 mm, blade thickness 5 - 7.5 mm). You can see them in the Dick-GmbH web site (cat#710230)

The main use of these chisel will be for cutting dovetail. 

I like also the LN chisels, which are in a similar range price. 
The characteristics of a chisel I'm looking for are: balance, control, and keep a good sharpe edge.

The woods I use are usually hard maple, mogany, beech, cherry, walnut. I don't (usually) use exotic wood.


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## Scott (16 Oct 2006)

David C":3jkoko76 said:


> Some of the new long paring chisels (bought for students) which we had liked and used for some years started to misbehave as we flattened the backs. If a belly was present, as metal was removed on a coarse 800g waterstone, the back continued to curl away from flat, resulting in the complete disapearance of the hollow before we could get the backs flat. The bend was getting worse as we worked and removed metal!
> 
> It was sugested that he was rolling the two steel layers together instead of hammer forge welding, and that stored stresses in the composite were being released as we worked on the backs.
> 
> I am very keen to hear if anyone has experienced this problem with the current APTC long paring chisels?



Bingo! :roll: 

Thanks David! I now have an explanation as to what the heck was happening with the things! I have experienced exactly this with Iyoroi long paring chisels from APTC (bought last year). I have a 12, 18 and 24 mm and all have the hollows lapped out over some (or most) of the back. 

I haven't used them since the start of this year so I've just rubbed them on a flat stone to check and, although they were flat when put away, they are not flat now :? There's not too much in it on the 12 & 18 but the 24 seems to be like a ploughed field after about 10 strokes on a red DMT. Generally though, they all look to be curling up at the edges.

Scott (who's now paranoid and will have to check every other chisel he owns!)


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## pompon44 (16 Oct 2006)

Hi,

Oh boys, this looks scary (at least for the beginner like me who's also searching to buy a few good chisels to start with -see my other post-). Should I stay away from Iyoroi altogether (and jump for LN) or what ?
Confused, confused... :?


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## whybob71 (16 Oct 2006)

I'm confused to .......... :? :?


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## Scott (16 Oct 2006)

OK, I gave the 12 and the 18mm a quick rub on each of the various grits and they're fine now so no big deal there. The 25 mm seems to need more work though. It's definitely around the edges. Will post a pic when I get minute.


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## David C (16 Oct 2006)

Scott,

Delighted to hear we were not the only ones to experience this problem.

David

PS My current recommendation to students (who are prepared to spend that much money) is for L-N chisels.

However I have no intention of stopping using or selling my Japanes collection, I use both now.

The point is that for a relative beginner, the L-Ns require much less work, are virtually perfectly ground with symmetrical crossection and nice delicate edges, are less brittle, can be changed in moments to long handle option (which I dreamed up ;-) ) and are perfect for those who can sharpen A2 steel, i.e. those who use waterstones.......

If I hear a word about SAUCE I will have a serious sense of humour failure.....and take my bat home.....


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## pompon44 (16 Oct 2006)

Hi David,

Thanks for the clear recommendation. I probably don't know enough of english or forum's history to know about SAUCE so won't comment on that ;-)
BTW, for students not ready to spend that much, what would be your recommendation then ? (just out of curiousity, as I'm ready to let someone pay that much to offer them to me for Chrismas ;-) )

Regards,


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## pompon44 (16 Oct 2006)

Oh, and another point (and sorry for hijacking this thread) : while LN chisels are probably just fine for me, what about big size chisels (like e.g 30mm) ?


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## David C (17 Oct 2006)

Less expensive UK or European chisels, very difficult choice, not sure I have a meaningful opinion here.

Ashley Iles have nice delicate edges.

The euro chisels, do not have delicate edges but some have very good steel, if you are able to source unpolished variety but I hate the handles.

Large sizes of L-N chisels are planned, ask Tom when! Meanwhile I am very happy with Classic Hand tools Japanese set made by a Co op. They are round the £30-40 mark, you can buy individually.

David Charlesworth


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## Scott (17 Oct 2006)

Here you go...







This is my Iyoroi 25mm long paring chisel.

You can see where the hollows were worn away getting the back flat when I first got it and on the left edge and tip is the shiny remains of the initial back preparation as against the dull, scratch-marked bit where I rubbed it over the diamond stone last night.

For some reason the 25mm chisel never ever felt right on the stone. I assumed it was just me but it had never occured to me that the lamination might be causing a problem.


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## David C (17 Oct 2006)

Scott,

That's a brilliant example.

I would send it back, if you can bear to after all that work.

Alternatively grind back about 5 to 10 ? mm

This is why I do not buy those particular paring chisels any more. I do not know what percentage exhibit this problem?

David


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## Anonymous (17 Oct 2006)

Scott that looks awful. I would send them back and ask for money, not replacement


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## Scott (17 Oct 2006)

Tony":1023t4uh said:


> Scott that looks awful



mmm! Not great is it! :evil: 

I'm still deciding whether or not to persevere with it. I probably won't because if it was flat before and curled up then it could happen again. Life's too short and I hate flattening backs anyway!

Interesting phenomenon though! The 12 and 18mm lost some of the hollows in the initial flattening and after the small amount of re-flattening they've had this time I hope they'll be OK because I do like the chisels. I reckon they probably will be because I'm guessing the stresses are out of them now.

I have a 6mm one that is fine and a couple of cranked ones that also seem fine.

It would be interesting to know if it's just the paring chisels too or if it applies to oire nomi as well? I don't have any of those but my curiosity is 
aroused now.


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## MarcW (18 Oct 2006)

Hi Scott,

Almost three years back now I bought a set of Iyoroi bench chisels with boxwood handles. The description tells this in english:



> Excellent chisels forged by the most experienced blacksmiths in Master Kohzo Iyoroi’s workshop. The blades are meticulously shaped by hand in a series of small steps. To guarantee superior edge life, the blades are laminated with “White Paper Steel”, a type of steel made from pure iron ore sand and similar to sword steel. Multiple hollows are ground in the blade’s back to provide more support and control for edge work. Waxed boxwood handles.



The german text says that after lamination the chisels are forged by hand. For me this has to say, that lamination is machine-made. Hm, I never had any problems with them and I am highly satisfied. I thank you for the information on the paring chisels. 

Regards, Marc

PS: I can feel a little about your hesitation to not send them back. I posted a thread on a japanese mortice chisel some days ago. By work it revealed to be difficult to use correctly. My mortises tended to be off square a little bit always to the same side. Preparation of the chisel took an hour and I don't want to spend precious shoptime for not being sure to have a good replacement one. :-k The seller told me, it wouldn't be sure I'd get a better one.


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## David C (18 Oct 2006)

Marc & Scott,

The multi fluted backs are normally slightly higher cost and quality.

I have had much less trouble with the bench striking chisels which are much shorter.

We had numerous problems with long paring chisels, which we had not had in previous years.

Is the crossection of the mortice chisel symmetrical or crooked? relative to the flat back.

David


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## MarcW (18 Oct 2006)

David C":276gd1cp said:


> ...
> Is the crossection of the mortice chisel symmetrical or crooked? relative to the flat back.
> 
> David



David, 

The centre of the shaft doesn't match the center of the handle. That's why I thought I would hold it not correctly and so chop in the wrong position.

In your first book you describe a japanese mortice chisel having parallel hollow sides. This doesn't apply to mine. The sides are parallel, but off square, in profile tapered from the back to the upper side. The taper is more important on one side than on the other (1mm off square versus 0.5mm the other side). Is that what you call crooked?






Then a photo of the profile in comparison to a bench chisel. The whole chisel isn't sound. I feel something wrong looking at it and working with it. I think it has more than one problem. 

Friendly regards and thank you for your help,

Marc


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## David C (18 Oct 2006)

Very difficult to diagnose problems by e mail.

The chisel looks no worse than many.

Perhaps with some practice you can learn to compensate for the present out of squareness.

L-N mortice chisels are very accurately machined!

Sorry not to be of more help,
David


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## Scott (19 Oct 2006)

Thanks for the info David

Cheers


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## ivan (27 Oct 2006)

I have some boxwood handled multi hollowed Iyoroi chisels bought about 10 years ago from Japan Woodworker, pleased with these. Recent Devon bought Iyoroi seem less well made, the wider paring type particularly so, with a poorer looking weld - some traces of oxide? in the join. They were supplied very convex along the length, one eventually flattened by grinding out virtually all of the hollow, the other paring chisels (why did I not think of it earlier) carefully tapped out till as flat as possible and then ground flat. 

As inspiring to good work as they may be, the expensive 'chisels as art' variety presumably add little to the ability to cut and hold an edge, if compared with a well made simpler style. The difficulty is to identify it! Has anyone tried the Matsumura chisels from Japan Woodworker, they got Fine Woodworking's gold star - but the competition did not include fancier brands


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## David C (27 Oct 2006)

Has anyone else had these problems with Recent APTC Iyoroi Paring chisels Please?

i.e. Bellied backs and a tendency to curl more as metal is honed from the back.

Very impressed with your tapping out, not an easy job.

I have found that chisels in the £ 30-40 range seem to be suitable for professional work without being too fancy. But it is difficult to find a good range of long paring chisels at this price level. Craftsmans Choice used to have a satisfactory set which we liked but no longer carry that particular brand.

David C


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## ivan (27 Oct 2006)

Thanks for the compliment DC! Tapping out is not too difficult. Use a block of hard end grain for support (under the tapping position only) and the ball end of a ball pein hammer of medium weight. Tap gently on the soft back (~2mm dimples) over the curved part to lenghten it and so remove the convexity. One looks very posh - cold hammered by the blacksmith to tease out..., the other less so as most curvature was at the sharp end.

FW visited Iyoroi who seemed to run a 'factory' - looked like a victorian Sheffield workshop - with a production line. The writer appeared to suggest forging was by trip hammer, and specials only, by an individual master blacksmith. Unsurprising really, as one man alone can't supply the world.


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## David C (28 Oct 2006)

Ivan,

That sounds very useful and doable. I will have to try it.

The tapping out I had difficulty with is used on the bevel of plane blades, as described by Toshio Odate. This needs to be very precise, as I found to my cost, as only the soft part of the bevel must be tapped!

David Charlesworth


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (28 Oct 2006)

> Has anyone tried the Matsumura chisels from Japan Woodworker



I have a couple of Matsumura dovetail chisels. They are nicely made (everything appears in their right place. They even come with the hoops set correctly), and hold a good edge for a long time .. but .. there is too much flat on the sides - far too much for a true dovetail chisel. So I am now (finally) going to grind them to a true triangle.

This can be seen here: Dovetails to the left, bench chisels to the right.







Regards from Perth

Derek


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## ivan (28 Oct 2006)

The only bevel I have tried tapping out was on a marking knife. I used a very light ball pein and held my breath - you can't see the site of impact till you lift the hammer again...Plane irons are so thick you'd have much more room! Seriously I think I'd make the tapping out gubbins pictured in Odate's book if I'd got a really expensive blade.

Thanks for the word about Matsumura' s chisels, Derek, I was wondering about getting my sister in the US to send me some of his parers.


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## David C (29 Oct 2006)

I have yet to meet a Japanese dovetail section chisel which does not have a considerable squarish edge.

Edges often seem to be formed at 4 degrees.

The narrow ones have a tall triangular section which is extremely uncomfortable when applying downward pressure on the spine.

Don't really understand this type and do not generaly recommend them, as I can see no practical advantage.

David C


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## Aled Dafis (29 Oct 2006)

Can someone please enlighten me as to why someone would want to tap out the bevel on a japanese chisel (or any type of chisel for that matter). The back (ura?) I can understand if it gets too small, but i'm baffled about the bevel.

It's probably blindingly obvious, but it's been bothering me for the last couple of days, so please enlighten me.

Note to self : Must get hold of Odate's book.

Thanks
Aled


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Oct 2006)

> Can someone please enlighten me as to why someone would want to tap out the bevel on a japanese chisel



Aled

I was a bit puzzled by that statement as well. As far as I am aware it is only the Japanase _plane_ blades that require tapping out. The chisels do not need to be tapped out. As you hone them, your final few swipes on the back of the blade to remove the wire edge automatically removes some of the hollow.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## ivan (29 Oct 2006)

The tapping out of _chisels_ above referred to a method of straightening what was basically a badly forged chisel - it was longitudinally convex, as you looked on the back (the side you flatten) Tapping out the length of the blade made a bent chisel more or less straight, as it should have been. It wasn't the bevel that was tapped.

Plane blades are tapped out when sharpening starts to cut into the hollow on the back. Tapping on the bevel bends the blade enough so that with a bit more back flattening a proper edge can be sharpened again. Experts suggest that after tapping out, the blade cuts better than when new. Possibly this action pre stresses the bevel, so making it more rigid.

There's no reason why chisels couldn't be tapped out on the bevel when sharpening breaks into the hollow on the back, apart from the skill needed to hammer a very small area with good control. I managed it OK on a 6 quid knife (I thought this was pretty low risk!) and it saved a lot of grinding, but I don't think I'd want to tap out the bevel on an expensive bench chisel cos I'd probably go and take out a bXXXy great chip! Japanese plane blades are thicker generally, so have a wider bevel which should be harder to miss...


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## mr.nfla (14 Jan 2007)

Hallo.
Do You now the site Iyoroi....?

Thank you.

Federico


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## David C (15 Jan 2007)

I don't think Iyoroi have a website?

Some can be seen on;
Dick Fine tools
Aptc
The Craftsmans Choice
Magma?

David


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