# A closer look at the Richard Kell no2 honing guide



## LuptonM (8 Jan 2011)

Ok, here's a quick review type thing before I go back to uni. You didn't really need me to grind some metal to show you the result, did you?

The packaging: 






The guide itself





As you can see the design is pretty simple but it seems quite well made with brass components ect
You'll need to make a projection board to use it accurately, I haven't made one yet but just wanted to show roughly how it works

The sides of the plane iron register off the plastic circles to keep it square and they also protect the brass. The cutter lays across both of the metal rods to keep it square in the other dimension- something that the cheapo Axminster guide fails to do consistently 








Due to its simple design it can hold even the smallest of blades- the smallest cutter which came with my Record no44 - obviously the cutter needs some work doing to it but this is for demonstration purposes only





I'd imagine the no1 guide would just have shorter threads. 

All in all the guides pretty good for honing anything that needs the cutting edge to be straight and curvature of the blade can be controlled by putting paper or whatever under one wheel at a time. However I find it much more convenient to just chuck the blade into my cheapo Axminster guide for anything with a substantial chamfer

Since all of my blades are straight and square, I haven't really thought about 'what if I wanted to hone this at 45 degrees?'. I guess the answer is buy the no3, but I didn't really want to have to make all them wedges!!!!!


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## woodbloke (8 Jan 2011)

I could go on at considerable length about Kell guide's, particularly the NoIII but I won't 'cos I'll get shouted at, so I'm saying nowt :-" [-( [-( :-" - Rob


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## Jacob (8 Jan 2011)

Can't be worse than the Mk III :lol: :lol:


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## yetloh (8 Jan 2011)

I have a Mk II but never use it - I haven't found a comfortable way to hold it.

For me, the Eclipse is still hard to beat, although I wish mine didn't have a wheel a bit like an old threepenny bit!


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## woodbloke (8 Jan 2011)

yetloh":1zjgumik said:


> I have a Mk II but never use it - I haven't found a comfortable way to hold it.


Jim, the trick with the Kell I and II is to _only_ pull them...much, much easier to use then - Rob


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## yetloh (8 Jan 2011)

Thanks Rob, I'll give that a try.

Jim


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## Jacob (8 Jan 2011)

woodbloke":36ll0rsw said:


> yetloh":36ll0rsw said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Mk II but never use it - I haven't found a comfortable way to hold it.
> ...


Yebbut pulling a blade towards is about the least effective way to sharpen, in terms of the pressure you can get on the blade. 
They just can't get it right these jig designers! I don't know why they bother, nobody needs them in the first place. :roll:

PS the problem with them all is in holding plane blades. They design the roller and the clamp bits (for better or worse) then have a brainstorm and forget the handles! Ludicrous! They only have to look at a plane to get the idea. You could add your own handles I suppose.
Chisels already have their own of course but you still don't need the jig. :lol:

PPS here's a suggestion for a practical design: take a plane form in principle, turn it into a honing jig by adding rollers in the sole behind the blade and change the frog to a steeper pitch for the desired angle - but leave the bl&&dy handles in place!
A much better suggestion (but too radical by far) would be to have the rollers in front of the blade and no sole behind it - but leave the bl&&dy handles in place somehow or other!


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## barkwindjammer (9 Jan 2011)

How much do these jigs cost ?


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## LuptonM (9 Jan 2011)

about £33- quite pricy but luckily by brother got me one for Christmas 

Usually I find myself placing both of my thumbs under the two bars and both of my forefingers (and maybe some other fingers depending on the blade width) resting on either side of the blade. This doesn't really work with really very thin blades though eg. 1/8" cutter

It does work better pulling it backwards, and it may take a wee bit longer, but a straight and square blade is worth the few seconds you loose


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## Jacob (9 Jan 2011)

LuptonM":1ob6hpxk said:


> .....
> It does work better pulling it backwards, and it may take a wee bit longer, but a straight and square blade is worth the few seconds you loose


Yebbut nobody wants a straight and square blade - you need a camber. A straight and square blade makes planing difficult, unless you only ever do edges narrower than the blade.
So this jig is difficult to hold*, only works backwards, and only does a square edge. Bin it.

* PS a jig is a holding device. If it is difficult to hold it has failed 100%.


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## matthewwh (9 Jan 2011)

Jacob,

If it were a grinding guide then you would probably be right, but it isn't, it's a honing guide. 

Three or four light strokes at precisely the same angle on successively finer abrasives to redefine and polish the secondary bevel. You can strop many times between honings and hone many times between grindings, so that's an awful lot of very sharp edges before any significant amount of metal needs removing. 

When you finally do reach the need for grinding there still shouldn't be any need for excessive pressure and red-faced cross-eyed scrubbing unless you are using abrasives that are too fine. 

Or, of course you could insist that a badly dished medium Charnley forest stone used with sufficient speed, pressure and aggression (possibly aided by the quietly muttered mantra "honing guides - work o' t'devil - unnatural -'kin witchcraft - burn 'em") will yield an edge that will cut wood and is therefore sharp - harrumph.


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## Aled Dafis (9 Jan 2011)

Why does everybody insist on holding honing guides with the edge away from them? 

I find it far more effective to turn the guide the other way round, with the edge pointing towards me, both thumbs applying pressure on the edge, and then push the guide away from my body. This ensures that most of the effort goes down onto the edge (I'm guesing around 90%) as opposed to a lot of the effort going down onto the whell when pulling, and that the guide just "guides" the iron at the required angle as it should. 

Try it out, you may like it, you may not...

Cheers

Aled


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## Jacob (9 Jan 2011)

matthewwh":1prrkbq3 said:


> .
> If it were a grinding guide then you would probably be right, but it isn't, it's a honing guide.


So "honing guides" only work backwards on the pull? Why is this? It's news to me. I'll try freehand backwards and see if there is any advantage.


> ....
> Or, of course you could insist that a badly dished medium Charnley forest stone used with sufficient speed, pressure and aggression (possibly aided by the quietly muttered mantra "honing guides - work o' t'devil - unnatural -'kin witchcraft - burn 'em") will yield an edge that will cut wood and is therefore sharp - harrumph.


If that's how you freehand sharpen no wonder you think you need a jig!


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## LuptonM (9 Jan 2011)

Jacob":16wg6tdk said:


> LuptonM":16wg6tdk said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



I was under the impression blades such as mortice chisels needed to be square and straight ect, that is why I like this guide as this is easily achievable. I am sure a mortice chisel with a chambered blade would be much more difficult to use. The eclipse/aminster basic guide can not even hold a chisel properly. 

Like Matthew says, you only need alot of pressure for grinding by hand and not for honing.


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## woodbloke (9 Jan 2011)

LuptonM":owvh6tmv said:


> I was under the impression blades such as mortice chisels needed to be square and straight ect, that is why I like this guide as this is easily achievable. I am sure a mortice chisel with a chambered blade would be much more difficult to use. The eclipse/aminster basic guide can not even hold a chisel properly.
> 
> Like Matthew says, you only need alot of pressure for grinding by hand and not for honing.



The KIII will also hold a mortise chisel...it's a bit a tight squeeze under the bar and a very skinny wedge needs to be made, but it is doable. The Ax/Eclipse guide is great and I used one for many years, but they do have their limitations and holding chisels is one of them. David Charlesworth did an easy mod:






...to them which makes the jig much easier to use for both plane and chisel blades - Rob


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## TheTiddles (9 Jan 2011)

> ....
> Or, of course you could insist that a badly dished medium Charnley forest stone used with sufficient speed, pressure and aggression (possibly aided by the quietly muttered mantra "honing guides - work o' t'devil - unnatural -'kin witchcraft - burn 'em") will yield an edge that will cut wood and is therefore sharp - harrumph.


If that's how you freehand sharpen no wonder you think you need a jig![/quote]

He missed out the bit where you insert your head into a large pan of simmering water, perhaps you should try it Jacob? Or even post some of the high precision work you've produced with your rounded bevels?

Aidan


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## Jacob (9 Jan 2011)

LuptonM":3ssz79p7 said:


> .....
> I was under the impression blades such as mortice chisels needed to be square and straight ect, that is why I like this guide as this is easily achievable. I am sure a mortice chisel with a chambered blade would be much more difficult to use. The eclipse/aminster basic guide can not even hold a chisel properly.
> 
> Like Matthew says, you only need a lot of pressure for grinding by hand and not for honing.


Camber for plane blades (with one or two exceptions such as rebate planes).
Freehand and you can do straight or cambered no problem. Jigs do straight only.


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## Kalimna (9 Jan 2011)

Jigs do camber too. And straight. I know this without vast years of experience because I've done it. With a jig.
But to get to the OP's jig, I've tried one on wide stones, and didnt really get on with it. Unfortunately I didnt get on with my freehand jig (eyes and arms) so settled for a Veritas Mk2.

Adam S


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## Jacob (9 Jan 2011)

TheTiddles":1wii7j96 said:


> .... Or even post some of the high precision work you've produced with your rounded bevels?
> 
> Aidan


I'll show you mine, you show me yours!

Odds and ends here from various threads, starting with very sharp chisels with rounded bevels with edge angles 30º:















































All my kit has rounded bevels with 30º approx edges, and it's all sharp.


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## Kalimna (9 Jan 2011)

Jacob - a genuine question here - what is the reasoning behind the rounded bevel? Is it because they are easier to achieve when honing freehand?

Cheers,
Adam


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## Jacob (9 Jan 2011)

Here's a few more big bits of joinery. I'm doing more of these at the moment. Not a lot of hand-tool work except for using a no7 to straighten the 12' long stiles i.e. flatten one side, the rest done by PT.

Window coming out:






Work in progress (total new copy):





Nearly finished:


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## Jacob (9 Jan 2011)

Kalimna":3lw2v6fd said:


> Jacob - a genuine question here - what is the reasoning behind the rounded bevel? Is it because they are easier to achieve when honing freehand?
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam


Yes. Spot on. Almost. A *30º edge* becomes easier to achieve if you don't buzz about with primary, secondary, flat bevels. The bevels don't matter (within reason) but the edge does.
All those hilarious and weird body contortions that get described so often (locked elbows, pivoting ankles, stiff back, think of England, etc ) become unnecessary, and freehand becomes ridiculously easy.


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## Jason Pettitt (9 Jan 2011)

> The sides of the plane iron register off the plastic circles to keep it square and they also protect the brass. The cutter lays across both of the metal rods to keep it square in the other dimension- something that the cheapo Axminster guide fails to do consistently...



Pssst. You've put the blade in the wrong way.






One of several things the Kell guides get right is that they reference the flat datum side of your iron.

I Like mine a lot - especially for chisels, block planes, spoke-shaves. I'm not convinced about using it to produce a camber for bench planes, but it's a great compliment to Eclipse style guides. And I know it's just a humble jig, but Kell's standards of fit and finish are dreamy.


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## bugbear (10 Jan 2011)

LuptonM":2ezteodz said:


> Like Matthew says, you only need a lot of pressure for grinding by hand and not for honing.



Don't worry; Jacob's views on sharpening are held by quite a small minority. ;-)

BugBear


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## woodbloke (10 Jan 2011)

Jason Pettitt":2z46zl3k said:


> I'm not convinced about using it to produce a camber for bench planes, but it's a great compliment to Eclipse style guides. And I know it's just a humble jig, but Kell's standards of fit and finish are dreamy.



Cambers can be done on any of the Kells but it takes a little longer. When I need to produce a blade with a camber (for my wooden jack) I use a strip of thick cardboard folded twice and placed under each wheel in turn. A set number of stokes is then done with the jig...say six on each side. The cardboard is then unfolded to a single thickness and the same thing done again and finally the centre section is honed normally with no card under the wheels. What this procedure does is to give you a very fine and controlled camber...the thicker the card, the greater the camber as the relevant wheel is raised further off the honing surface - Rob


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## Jacob (10 Jan 2011)

woodbloke":9c5nr8qk said:


> Jason Pettitt":9c5nr8qk said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not convinced about using it to produce a camber for bench planes, but it's a great compliment to Eclipse style guides. And I know it's just a humble jig, but Kell's standards of fit and finish are dreamy.
> ...


Rob you make it sound so easy! :lol: 
Freehand you just press more on one side, then the other, as you hone in the normal way. A hollow stone is handy - you get a camber whether you want one or not!


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## bugbear (10 Jan 2011)

Jacob":1olvmrjw said:


> A hollow stone is handy - you get a camber whether you want one or not!



As long as your desired camber is equal or greater than that of the stone. Otherwise, you're sunk.

And you need a flat stone to sharpen jointer blades for match planing, and all joint cutting blades. Since you need a flat stone some of the time, unless you're a collector (and want a whole pile of sharpening stones) you might as well use the flat stones for everything.

BugBear


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