# When is hand made not hand made?



## Handworkfan (6 Dec 2008)

I'm picking up a conversation started on the new veritas plane thread. For those who haven't been following it, the issue is about whether the use of jgs and power tools means that something is not 'hand made'.

I use a few machines and a number of jigs - mostly home-made. I reckon, for example, the mitred corners on my boxes - shot with a shooting board and a bird-house jig - are genuinely hand made since I made the jigs, planing the slopes on teh bird-house freehand to precise angles in both planes. The result is that the joint is child's play to make, but wouldn't have been without the skill to make the jigs in the first place.

Some power tools take the hard work out of things without necessarily reducing the skill level involved - and it must be right that the maker should receive credit for the hand skills involved.

A distinction is made in the original conversation between 'the workmanship of risk' (hand work) and 'the workmanship of certainty' which is interpreted at the extreme to include using a plane as opposed to an unsupported blade. However, there's a big gap here between 'risk' and 'certainty' as anyone who's ever planed a workpiece badly with a good plane will testify! With the best plane in the world there's no 'certainty' about getting timber true and smooth - and many a maker will testify to the 'risk' of taking up a hand-plane to clean up a lovingly-made piece.  
I wonder what others think about it?


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## Lord Nibbo (6 Dec 2008)

In my mind if I made it it's hand made  Which tools I used to make it is my decision. The fact that I sized up a piece of timber starting with a 1" x 6" sawn board and ended up with a 20mm x 120mm using a table saw a planer and a thicknesser rather than slog my butt off using a hand plane is irrelevant. 

Most every person here on this forum owns either owns a band saw or table saw and uses them for nearly every project, so by using them does that rule out a claim that everything they make is not hand made? No way hosé ](*,)


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## woodbloke (6 Dec 2008)

Lord Nibbo":27ss63ty said:


> In my mind if I made it it's hand made  Which tools I used to make it is my decision. The fact that I sized up a piece of timber starting with a 1" x 6" sawn board and ended up with a 20mm x 120mm using a table saw a planer and a thicknesser rather than slog my butt off using a hand plane is irrelevant.
> 
> Most every person here on this forum owns either owns a band saw or table saw and uses them for nearly every project, so by using them does that rule out a claim that everything they make is not hand made? No way hosé ](*,)



...which then begs the question, Your Lordship, of where you differentiate between something that's 'machine made' or 'hand made'? - Rob


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## Chems (6 Dec 2008)

Fairly simple if you ask me. Machine made is when one of those big CAD machines makes something. Hand made is a an operator using tools to get the job done. Be they powered or not.


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## woodbloke (6 Dec 2008)

Chems":1mtoqn58 said:


> Fairly simple if you ask me. Machine made is when one of those big CAD machines makes something. Hand made is a an operator using tools to get the job done. Be they powered or not.


A CNC machine is also a tool that has had to be set up at some point by hand, both mechanically and with a suitable piece of software...so are things made by this sort of machine also 'hand made'?..and how do you classify 'tools'?...you see how difficult the area is :wink: - Rob


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## Jake (6 Dec 2008)

If you haven't clawed it out of the wood with your fingernails, it isn't hand-made.


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## Mr Ed (6 Dec 2008)

What if you nibbled the finer details onto it with your teeth? :shock: 

Cheers, Ed


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## Jake (6 Dec 2008)

Hand-and-mouth made, I'm afraid.


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## wizer (6 Dec 2008)

If you designed it, implemented the tooling, and physically saw it right through from start to finish, it's hand made. It might be hand made with the assistance of machinery, but you'd have to go a long way to find something that a machine hadn't touched these days.


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## 13eightyfour (6 Dec 2008)

Where i used to work The timber was ordered in ready glued into various thicknesses and ready planed, This was then sawn to length using a cnc 'upcut' saw (basically an automated mitresaw.) These panels were then passed to me where everything was cut to exact size and all dadoes/holes created using SCM cnc machine, and were then passed through to assembly, Where if im honest an untrained monkey could have achieved an acceptable finish! 
It was incredibly rare that there was a problem with alignment, In fact in the whole factory we only had 1 plane! We produced massive amounts of furniture every week all of which was marketed as handmade.

While i wouldnt consider any of it handmade its amazing what can be passed off as being so.


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## karl5005 (6 Dec 2008)

Sometimes I am obliged to make bold statements regarding my status in plane making as it can be irrating when I hear or see comments 'oh he makes his planes with machines'. To sum it up this plane making is really just about attitude and effort. 

Are there people who believe I have the proverbial Heath Robinson machine that needs to be fed raw material at one end and then to watch all those mechanical gloved hands whirl into action and remembering to place the soft mattress to catch the finished project at the other end. This machine requires a great deal of concentration as I am always setting the dial for the wrong plane :lol:


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## Mr Ed (6 Dec 2008)

karl5005":1w67a57y said:


> Are there people who believe I have the proverbial Heath Robinson machine that needs to be fed raw material at one end and then to watch all those mechanical gloved hands whirl into action and remembering to place the soft mattress to catch the finished project at the other end.



Well thanks for shattering that illusion for me Karl...  I had this image of a Wallace and Gromit like operation that will never be the same for me now :lol: 

Cheers, Ed


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## Tony Zaffuto (6 Dec 2008)

Wallace and Grommet? Next it will be Shawn the Sheep! We love the Brit cartoons as much as the Cliftons!

As a hobbyist, I have the time to try things more since my livelihood doesn't depend on deadlines. I subscribe to the theory that all joints, preparations, etc. must be experienced completely by hand before one can understand machines. I have done a few pieces totally without electricity and a few with virtually no handtools, save some minor handplane touch-ups. The only way the difference can be told would be by a dis-assembly of the piece (at least to my untrained eye).

T.Z.


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## Lord Nibbo (6 Dec 2008)

woodbloke":3gj62xaw said:


> Chems":3gj62xaw said:
> 
> 
> > Fairly simple if you ask me. Machine made is when one of those big CAD machines makes something. Hand made is a an operator using tools to get the job done. Be they powered or not.
> ...



Yes but I only make one at a time, if I made two they wouldn't be exactly the same. A machine can make millions exactly the same. :lol:


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## Lord Nibbo (6 Dec 2008)

Chems":24iuayc3 said:


> Fairly simple if you ask me. Machine made is when one of those big CAD machines makes something. Hand made is a an operator using tools to get the job done. Be they powered or not.


 Spot on and add what I said in the post above :lol:


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## tnimble (6 Dec 2008)

Lord Nibbo":2hseq5hb said:


> woodbloke":2hseq5hb said:
> 
> 
> > Chems":2hseq5hb said:
> ...




Some interesting points. All of which are both correct and wrong.

CNC Computer numerical control has little to nothing to do with having a million exactly the same products at the push of a button.

Probably most people understand there needs to be a certain kind of program fed into the machine. But in the case of a machine that is fed with a program still no pats will come out at the push of a button.

CNC is often associated with a large factory with one supervisor over looking the machinery. This is true for a fully automated production plant. Sush a lpace utelizes not CNC operated machines. They utelize special enineered machinery for their products consisting of conveyor belts, sensors, automated measuring and robotics.

However a tipical CNC machine is either fed angles, lengths and circumference by hand (often aided by CAD/CAM). The most used 'language' in which thoses operations are entered is G- or M-Code.

An operator has not only to know this code and how to use it to not break cutters or damage the part, he also needs to make or buy jigs and apply them to mount a piece of metal (r wood) in the machine. He then has to align the piece of material, and must let the machine know where the piece is. And then instruct the machine go to x,y with speed n. lower bit by z, speed n, lower bit by z speed n, raise bit etc. (this can be stored and recalled (but will be useless without the hand work of setting up and aligning a piece), or suggestions can be generated from CAD/CAM (just as your cutting list can be)).

This is very close to turning the handles and dails on a drill, mill or lathe to advance the cutter. Only instead of using calipers and the indicators on the handles and dails, one uses numbers.


If a bookcase sawn on a table saw, and joints cut by a router or hollow chisel morticr are hand made, a piece made with a table saw with a CNC fence and blade height is still hand made.

This bookcase would certainly not be hand made if there where five table saws, two morticers and three shapers, each one setup once for a perticular cut, with the parts either moved through conveyor belts or a monkey.



What about hand crafted versus hand made?


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## Benchwayze (6 Dec 2008)

If you need to cut something you need a cutting tool. (Bruce Lee and Superman excepted) That tool can be a hand-tool or a machine-tool. 
So, to be pedantic, when we say 'hand-made' we mean hand-tooled.

Since I use a combination of machine tools and hand tools on most of my work, to satisfy the 'watchdogs', I always describe anything I make as 'individually' made. 

If a joint is well cut, and fit for purpose, then how it is cut is irrelevant. (Except maybe for appearance.) 

There is a signature on the forum: Quote: "What I make is for others; how I make it is for me." Unquote. (I think that was right!) 

So I reckon the boundaries are somewhat blurred.


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## Handworkfan (6 Dec 2008)

Nice to have started a lively debate!
I guess another question is, 'What is the buyer entitled to expect if a piece is described as hand made?'
If I bought a piece of work thinking it had been lovingly crafted by an amazingly skilled artisan, and later found out that the only 'hand' involved had been setting up the machine and pushing the button, I think I'd be entitled to feel a little dsiappointed.
On the other hand, it's true that surely no one converts material from the log by hand these days - so the term is always going to be a bit vague and open to interpretation.
When I do piece of work for someone else I usually include with it a small A5 tri-fold leaflet, nicely produced on quality paper, outlining the salient points of how it was made. So they will know, for example, that the basic preparation was done on machines, grooves cut at a small router table, and the corner joints hand-cut using traditional jigs made by hand in the workshop. If the piece is dovetailed, they'll know that the joints are hand-cut sawcut-to-sawcut with tradtional tools and no trial assembly.
It sounds a bit fussy put down like this, but I find that people read the leaflets avidly and often engage in quite animated conversations - well, it's probably less tedious than watching HM's speech on Christmas day!

While I recognise that no absolutely 'pure' definition of hand-made is possible, I do think that from a buyer's or recipient's point of view, it does need to have some kind of genuine meaning.


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## Benchwayze (6 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":2ai6xpb1 said:


> Nice to have started a lively debate!



Well, it is quite an 'old-saw', but it usually gets a lot of people hot under the collar. \/ :lol:


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## dunbarhamlin (6 Dec 2008)

Had a very similar discussion on the meaning of 'hand crafted' on the Ubeaut forum a little while ago.
Few random musings:
I would still consider it dishonest to describe a piece with jigged joinery (be it from fenced table saw, router jig, miter saw or even donkey's ear) as entirely _hand_ crafted.
This has no bearing on craftsmanship nor on quality - purely on production method.
The problem may largely be one of semantics, but a customer swayed by the 'hand made' or 'hand crafted' label is, I would suggest, subscribing to a romantic image of the pre industrial age, and I do think this must be considered.
To cite the hand made nature of jigs and fixtures does seem something of a sophistication - the tool is hand made, _not_ the product.
In my fanciful, hamateur's eye, to be described as hand made or hand crafted, all joinery and surfaces should be cut and finished by eye with hand powered tools. Obviously this gets silly - a shooting board certainly doesn't fit in here, though hand powered, nor an electric drill, though guided by eye.


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## Handworkfan (6 Dec 2008)

dunbarhamlin":excs6zsr said:


> The problem may largely be one of semantics, but a customer swayed by the 'hand made' or 'hand crafted' label is, I would suggest, subscribing to a romantic image of the pre industrial age, and I do think this must be considered.
> To cite the hand made nature of jigs and fixtures does seem something of a sophistication - the tool is hand made, _not_ the product.


So would that include the preparation of the timber from the log?
The 'pre-industrial age' would, unless I am seriously mistaken have included the use of such things as shooting boards, donkey's ear shoots, and fence-guided plough planes. So the romantic images are still catered for if a shooting board has been used.
My point about the hand-made jigs was simply that the jigs don't in any way replace hand skills because they were made using them - I think that is in a different category from industrial jigs and fixtures.
I agree, it's an impossible term to define - that's why I think customers are entitled to know what we, indicidually, mean by describing our work as hand made.


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## dunbarhamlin (6 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":383ni5l7 said:


> So would that include the preparation of the timber from the log?


Perhaps perversely, I would think not, since the rough dimensioned riven or sawn stock is the raw material of the cabinet maker.


> The 'pre-industrial age' would, unless I am seriously mistaken have included the use of such things as shooting boards, donkey's ear shoots, and fence-guided plough planes. So the romantic images are still catered for if a shooting board has been used.


True, and just as the plane itself is a jig, I think this highlights why the spirit rather than the letter is all that can sensibly be followed.


> My point about the hand-made jigs was simply that the jigs don't in any way replace hand skills because they were made using them - I think that is in a different category from industrial jigs and fixtures.


Ah - this harks back to my distinction of the cabinet maker's realm. The jigs have replaced cabinetry hand skills with those of the toolmaker. That the modern cabinetmaker is also toolmaker seems like a nonsequiteur to me. Otherwise, the label is indeed without meaning (work back far enough and all tooling will have a progenitative tool which required the toolmaker's or patternmaker's handicraft)


> I agree, it's an impossible term to define - that's why I think customers are entitled to know what we, individually, mean by describing our work as hand made.


Now that seems unreasonbly sensible for a debate like this


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## Handworkfan (6 Dec 2008)

dunbarhamlin":ugsqbl8h said:


> Handworkfan":ugsqbl8h said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, it's an impossible term to define - that's why I think customers are entitled to know what we, individually, mean by describing our work as hand made.
> ...


 :lol: =D>


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## promhandicam (6 Dec 2008)

I'd be interested to know if LN considers the plaque made by CNC Paul for his plane box to be hand made or not?

Steve


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Dec 2008)

Rob asked,


> A CNC machine is also a tool that has had to be set up at some point by hand, both mechanically and with a suitable piece of software...so are things made by this sort of machine also 'hand made'?..



As did Steve,


> I'd be interested to know if LN considers the plaque made by CNC Paul for his plane box to be hand made or not?



I'd would argue that only the_ first _product from a CNC machine is "hand made". All the remainder are machine copies.

And to the issue of "when is an item hand made", the answer is "whenever a manufacturer believes this will afford some sales advantage". 

Of course, Karl's planes could never be mistaken for being hand made since they are too perfect. Karl, it is important to introduce some imperfections into your wonderful creations..... just a little advice. Also, I'm still waiting for that review plane to arrive .. it's been "in the post" for a couple of years now  

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## promhandicam (8 Dec 2008)

Having thought about this some more, I think the answer to the OP's question is, when it is mass produced. Something can be made almost entirely by machine - as in the case of Lord Nibbo's plaque - but still, as far as I am concerned be hand made. Had CNC Paul produced 100 such plaques - each identical then they would be mass produced even though the method of manufacture is the same.

Steve


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## Lord Nibbo (8 Dec 2008)

promhandicam":em2virve said:


> Having thought about this some more, I think the answer to the OP's question is, when it is mass produced. Something can be made almost entirely by machine - as in the case of Lord Nibbo's plaque - but still, as far as I am concerned be hand made. Had CNC Paul produced 100 such plaques - each identical then they would be mass produced even though the method of manufacture is the same.
> 
> Steve



Put quite eloquently, my sentiments entirely. =D> =D> =D>


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## wizer (8 Dec 2008)

Mine too :sign3:


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## bugbear (8 Dec 2008)

It's a continuous spectrum (more hand made-less hand made). Not much more to it than that.

BugBear


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## bugbear (8 Dec 2008)

promhandicam":xpwdox1s said:


> Having thought about this some more, I think the answer to the OP's question is, when it is mass produced.



Where does that notion put smith-made nails?

BugBear


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## tnimble (8 Dec 2008)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I'd would argue that only the_ first _product from a CNC machine is "hand made". All the remainder are machine copies.



If applying to same principle to say a table saw or a router rable used to create the rails, styles and panels for a set of door for a cabinate, only the first rail, style and even tennon would be 'hand made'.

It would be even more so that the other rails, styles and panels are machine made / machine copies id est mass produced than the average CNCed part.

Let me explain. Take the instance of the rails. The table saw blade and fence are setup one and tweaked to perform the proper cross or rip cut (whatever comes first due to the bought lumber). The first sawed rail is hand made as there was a some hand work of setting up the saw and correcting small mistakes. The rest of all the styles are machine copies as only the stock was needed to be fed through the machine to produce a copy of the first. (I don't believe anybody would setup th e saw again for each repative cut)

With the CNC machine, after doing all design and creating a cut list (just as one had done with the above example) for each and every piece regardless of the piece being the first, the second or hundred there is a lot of hand work to to clamp the raw stock (or partly machines pieece) in place and align the part relative to the machine its X, Y and Z axes.

The risk per part (and equally high for each next part) to have a part not according to design is much higher than with the table saw or router examples (where the risk of a part not matching the design is high for the first part and low for the repative parts).


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## dunbarhamlin (8 Dec 2008)

Custom made it may be but not hand made. 
If I thickness 20 back and side sets using just a hand plane and scrapers, they are hand prepared.
If I thickness one using my drum sander, it is not.
If I spend the time to bend a batch of mandolin sides over a hot pipe, they are hand made, whether I bend one set or twenty.
If I pop a single set into a Fox style mold to get the same result, they are not hand made.
If I cope, rasp and file twenty headstocks to shape, they are handmade. If I used a template to route a single headstock, it is machine made, whether the template will be reused or not.


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## tnimble (8 Dec 2008)

dunbarhamlin":3bfvm6yn said:


> Custom made it may be but not hand made.
> If I thickness 20 back and side sets using just a hand plane and scrapers, they are hand prepared.
> If I thickness one using my drum sander, it is not.
> If I spend the time to bend a batch of mandolin sides over a hot pipe, they are hand made, whether I bend one set or twenty.
> ...



Excatly!


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## Benchwayze (8 Dec 2008)

You wouldn't 'kerf' the sides of a guitar (The ribs maybe) so making guitar sides is usually done by applying heat, I would think. 

Therefore isn't the 'Fox mould', just an advanced version of a hot pipe? The actual heat source is irrelevant. You are not bending wood by hand, but by heat. Whether you use a hot pipe or an electrically heated mould, presumably you put the pieces in by hand. So maybe your guitar sides are neither one nor the other. 

Quality issues aside, would they be hand made if I made a shaped press and formed the sides with layers of veneer, glued in the press? (The jig?) 

Couldn't the right species be well soaked in hot water and formed this way in the solid too? 

I think that in the luthier's workshop you have to resort to partial machine methods somewhere. (Your fretwire and machine heads are usually bought in?) This doesn't alter the fact that an instrument made by you would be far superior to one made even by the Gibson factory today! 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AhkPU9zslQk


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## Benchwayze (8 Dec 2008)

One thing I can vouch for, however this guy makes his guitars, they aren't exactly mass-produced, the quality of sound is superlative.

The playing itself is almost as good as mine ! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Yeah, ok, disregard the last sentence.

John :mrgreen:


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## dunbarhamlin (8 Dec 2008)

Benchwayze":2yrgbfbs said:


> You wouldn't 'kerf' the sides of a guitar (The ribs maybe) so making guitar sides is usually done by applying heat, I would think.
> 
> Therefore isn't the 'Fox mould', just an advanced version of a hot pipe? The actual heat source is irrelevant. You are not bending wood by hand, but by heat. Whether you use a hot pipe or an electrically heated mould, presumably you put the pieces in by hand. So maybe your guitar sides are neither one nor the other.


The wood is rendered pliable by heat and moisture. It is bent by keeping it moving over the pipe with hand pressure to form and fix the necessary curves (very much a manual skill) or by wrapping it and placing in a mold with a heat source (no manual skill required, just past experience for timings and temperatures) I use a mold for most parts - reliable, repeatable, but not handiwork.


> Quality issues aside, would they be hand made if I made a shaped press and formed the sides with layers of veneer, glued in the press? (The jig?)


Just as using a Fox or male/female mold. I make my own molds, but the finished product is only finished by hand in this regard, not handmade.


> Couldn't the right species be well soaked in hot water and formed this way in the solid too?


Provided the ribs are thin enough, it doesn't even have to be hot water. Some violin luthiers cold form their ribs. High heat reduces spring back and reduces risk of wood failure (except with high figure, where it may actually increase it, though I haven't tried the other way)


> I think that in the luthier's workshop you have to resort to partial machine methods somewhere. (Your fretwire and machine heads are usually bought in?) This doesn't alter the fact that an instrument made by you would be far superior to one made even by the Gibson factory today!


Fretwire as bought is pretty much like S4C. It still needs refining for fit, and then of course dressing (levelling and shaping) once installed. Installation is also subject to methods involving more or less handiwork. I use a mitre block and template rather than saw the slots freehand (a large operation might either use CNC or multibladed tablesaw - the reason certain generations of Gibson have common fret spacing faults,) though do hammer my frets rather than using a press.
Tuning machines are just like cabinet furniture. Depending on the source they need more or less work to refine finish, fit and function.
(Happily Gibson don't make cylinderbacks, so we're not in competition  )
You're right that, reallistically, unless using gut frets and wooden tuning pegs, some machined parts are unavoidable.


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## studur (8 Dec 2008)

My 2cents...

I would say that something is hand made if hand tools are used to make it. Like in the old days, a hundred years ago, when my great grand dad in the winter time when the fields were frozen would spend a couple months to make a cabinet with his tools. A hand made mortise and a mortiser made mortise are 2 different thing imho. 

If i buy something hand made, I would assume that no power tools were used to make it except maybe the starting lumber. I dont think that you have to cut your own tree to be entitled to hand-made...

I think that cabinet maker should refer to custom-made instead of hand made in case of original furniture made with power tools. If I would go out and buy something hand-made with an electric planer, jointer, table saw, router, shaper, then I would say the maker is a liar. Sure it is custom-made and not these million copies type of furniture, it does not remove the talent of the cabinetmaker but hand tools and power tools are different things. 

Now running to my nuclear bunker because I see the outrage coming up...


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## woodbloke (8 Dec 2008)

dunbarhamlin":2dzla9kl said:


> Custom made it may be but not hand made.
> If I thickness 20 back and side sets using just a hand plane and scrapers, they are hand prepared.
> If I thickness one using my drum sander, it is not.
> If I spend the time to bend a batch of mandolin sides over a hot pipe, they are hand made, whether I bend one set or twenty.
> ...



It's clear that there's a huge blurring in the division between what's construed as 'hand-made, hand-prepared, hand-guided' etc or whichever layer of the 'by hand' argument that's being discussed *and *the notion of using some sort of powered machine (or otherwise) to produce the end result(s) What is evident is that as soon as 'hand' comes into the equation the chances of failure ie: 'workmanship of risk' goes *up *and conversely as soon as a machine of some sort is used the chance of failure ie 'the workmanship of certainty' is *reduced*. Hence the reason that as soon as objects are made on a CNC tool, the rate of failure in the finished product (once the initial set-up has been done) _ought_ to be zero - Rob


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## Jake (8 Dec 2008)

It's a lot more risky to use a belt sander than a hand sanding pad - or to try to plane something accurately with an electric plane.

Can we discuss how many angels can dance on the edge of a very sharp chisel next, please?


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## Benchwayze (8 Dec 2008)

studur":1uedk1go said:


> My 2cents...
> 
> A hand made mortise and a mortiser made mortise are 2 different thing imho.



But if you were shown shown two, glued up and finished blind joints; one made by 'hand' and the other by a morticer, could you tell the difference?

And, provided they are both well made, would one be stronger than the other? 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## dunbarhamlin (8 Dec 2008)

Benchwayze":2asw69d3 said:


> studur":2asw69d3 said:
> 
> 
> > My 2cents...
> ...


That I think is the point - describing the machine made item as hand made is dishonest, as the customer may well have made their choice in the belief that their patronage was preserving old styles of craftsmanship.
It is charging the customer for something whichy was not done. Just the same as charging for six coats of paint and only doing five.


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## Paul Chapman (8 Dec 2008)

woodbloke":3fjsw7eh said:


> as soon as a machine of some sort is used the chance of failure ie 'the workmanship of certainty' is *reduced*.



Except when it's a biscuit jointer and you cut the slots in the wrong place :lol: Sorry, Rob, couldn't resist - but don't worry I won't tell anyone :wink: :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## studur (8 Dec 2008)

@Benchwayze about hidden joints

I would probably not see the difference. It was just a not so good example to give. But hand made vs router made dovetails would be more obvious. Especially if you spend the little effort to put the little touch to show off the signs of the hand made ones (like different sizes of dovetails on the same side).


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## promhandicam (8 Dec 2008)

dunbarhamlin":52zxbddw said:


> That I think is the point - describing the machine made item as hand made is dishonest, . . . . snip.



Then there are a lot of dishonest professional cabinet makers around. I've just had a look at a few websites and many use the term hand made as well as custom made and bespoke - and many go so far as to say that dovetails or finishing are done by hand but I doubt very much that any professional cabinet maker of whatever calibre would produce furniture from rough sawn timber without using any powered tools or machinery. If there are, then they either have customers with very deep pockets or they don't plan on staying in business for long. To take just one example, John Lloyd sells Lamello biscuit jointers in his tool shop. In the introduction to the shop it says "If we stock it, we would use it in our workshops, and if you need advice on what to buy, whether you are a complete beginner or a professional, we will be able to assist you." 

Steve


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## studur (8 Dec 2008)

Then probably hand made furnitures are not a viable option for business. There is no shame in saying that a commercial workshop uses power tools to make furniture but they must abstain from applying the term hand-made. I would keep the lumber preparation out of the equation since on can buy furniture-ready lumbers and do a hand-made cabinet. In my opinion, I would consider a cabinet hand-made if it would have been made using hand tools even if the cabinetmaker would have bought the lumbers already planed and jointed.

I would also say that the hand made label is only a matter of craftsmanship recognition from peers. It has no real monetary value if the end product is the exact same as one produced with help of power tools. I would not pay the double price because the craftsman decided to spend 5-10 hours to plane his table top with a hand plane instead of power tools. But I would be impressed by the end result. But in the end, the table is the same for the customer. Hand made is more or less a matter of personal satisfaction or recognition from peers. 

with this other 2 cents, i am close to a dollar now


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## tnimble (8 Dec 2008)

woodbloke":1kefupa9 said:


> Hence the reason that as soon as objects are made on a CNC tool, the rate of failure in the finished product (once the initial set-up has been done) _ought_ to be zero


Which is totally untrue, ever used a CNC machine or seen one up close while it was used? After initial setup one cannot throw some piece of wood or metal towards the machine to be fetched by mechanical arms that grab and position te work. For most machines that can be CNCed the hand operated machine has less 'workmanship risk' but the 1 pass movemens that can be made are more limited in complexity and more aditional tooling is required.

A CNC machine requires lots of setup per part and still many tool changes in between each again with setup. Only an automated production line has little risk once initially setup.


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## Mr Ed (8 Dec 2008)

4 pages in and no-one has even mentioned William Morris or Ned Ludd yet!

Ed


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## woodbloke (8 Dec 2008)

tnimble":30qcvjs2 said:


> woodbloke":30qcvjs2 said:
> 
> 
> > Hence the reason that as soon as objects are made on a CNC tool, the rate of failure in the finished product (once the initial set-up has been done) _ought_ to be zero
> ...



I bow to your superior knowledge and very 'umbly stand corrected, tugging forelock :wink: ... and as to having used a CNC machine the answer is yes, albeit many years ago in a very limited capacity. Perhaps what I meant was as you suggest, an automated line of some description.
The point I wished to make was that with the greater use of sophisticated, accurate (and I foolishly picked CNC machinery as it had been mentioned in the thread before :roll: ) machinery the less chance of product failure due the 'workmanship of certainty' - Rob


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## dunbarhamlin (8 Dec 2008)

See my tagline. 
[edit]Oops - that's in Another Place - "Lutherie with Luddite Tendencies"
[/edit]

To backtrack a little, I don't think most cabinet makers using the phrase are being dishonest. That would only be the case if they knowingly misled their clientelle. Most will be misusing it as a simple marketing phrase, without due consideration of what it implies to the potential customer.
I'm sure luddite manufacture would be entirely impractical in the modern age (as evidenced by changes common in commercial Amish shops)


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## woodbloke (8 Dec 2008)

Paul Chapman":1dkuqs11 said:


> woodbloke":1dkuqs11 said:
> 
> 
> > as soon as a machine of some sort is used the chance of failure ie 'the workmanship of certainty' is *reduced*.
> ...


...except I told Michael Huntley and he's seen the evidence  - Rob


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## Benchwayze (8 Dec 2008)

For studorosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Benchwayze about hidden joints 

I would probably not see the difference. It was just a not so good example to give. But hand made vs router made dovetails would be more obvious. Especially if you spend the little effort to put the little touch to show off the signs of the hand made ones (like different sizes of dovetails on the same side). 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not for one minute did I suggest that I would counsel a 'fraud'.

I just wanted to point out that looking at a finished M&T, it would be near impossible to tell the difference between hand-tooled and machine-tooled. 
I know there are those who might misrepresent machine made joints, but I ain't one of them. 

If I wished, I could hand-tool a dovetail that looked identical to one cut with a Leigh jig. But what's the point, when the 'Holy Grail' would be to get the Leigh to do it the other way around! 

:lol:


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## promhandicam (8 Dec 2008)

In all the heated debate no one has had the good manners - myself included - to welcome studur to this particular madhouse  . . . . so welcome!

Steve


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## studur (8 Dec 2008)

thank you for the welcome words  

I'm just a beginner so my words do not worth sh** But I like this debate since I tossed my power tools aside to get to the real things, chisels, gouges, saws and scrapers. I must say I love it. The wood curls and shavings, the quietness of hand tools versus power tools. It feels like being a born-again craftsman who tries (hardly) to recreate my ancestor's hobby.


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## Paul Chapman (8 Dec 2008)

Welcome studur.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Mr T (8 Dec 2008)

Hi

I think handmade has something to do with the relationship of the operater to the tool. The workmanship of risk has been mentioned a few times, this is about the workers control of the tool and his effect on the outcome. Even when using a machine it is easy to cock things up (in fact the cock ups are usually bigger when machines are used). I would suggest that using a hand held router is equivalent to using a hand plane, in use you are monitoring the progress of the machine and making minor adjustments accordingly. You are controlling the operation at a risk to the outcome.

The risk to the outcome varies with different machines depending on the amount of operator control. A thicknesser has little operator control while a biscuit jointer has a high level of control.

Chris


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## Benchwayze (8 Dec 2008)

Welcome Studur. 
My apologies. I didn't notice you had made so few posts. A belated welcome to this merry-go-round. 

And Promhandicam, 
I saw your signature yesterday somewhere, and I know it wasn't on this forum, because I wrote it down, for reference myself! 
That fits me to a tee! But where I saw it is gonna bother me until I remember  

Anyway, 
Hand-made is for snowballs and maybe paperdarts, neither of which have much function and don't last very long. (Excepting some fine examples of origami maybe!) 

(hammer)


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## studur (9 Dec 2008)

@Benchwayze - no offense taken at all   Thank you for your kind words. If you saw me on a woodworking forum, it was probably a french one lamortaise.com...

I agree with the latter poster. A power tool has the power to make more damages. Like a guide that moves and send your router in the wrong direction. And in the end, you still have to use you hand tools to do the repairs.


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## marcus (5 Jan 2009)

I’m coming in a bit late on this, but just came across the thread and have a few thoughts....

It might be hard or impossible to tell the difference between individual hand-cut and machine-cut M&Ts, but that’s not the whole story. One joint doesn't make a piece of furniture.

Hand tools have their own “logic”. There are certain operations which are easy and straightforward for them, and others which are more difficult, time consuming and "illogical". Machines have a somewhat different logic. If you make the decision to use predominantly hand tools while still hoping to be efficient then this is going to effect everything you do, from the design and timber selection onwards. It’s not usually a question of thinking a piece up without regard for how you’re going to make it - the methods open to you are a huge part of the design process. A design to be made with hand tools will, in a project of any complexity, usually end up quite a bit different to how it would be if you were intending to mostly use machines.

Producing good work, relatively quickly, with hand tools is possible (except for initial ripping and thicknessing), but one has to approach it differently. Accuracy for it’s own sake goes out the window, things are only perfectly straight, square, flush or smooth where they have to be. You quickly find the true worth of the face side, face edge system which enable small errors to accumulate in places where they don’t matter. The rule “if it looks right it is right” comes into it’s own, because the skill is more about juggling imperfections so that the eye doesn’t notice them, rather than trying to be geometrically correct. 

These sort of factors may be quite subtle but put them together and they are less so. Work that is made with hand tools, and with hand tool logic rather than machine logic IS, to my eye, different in character to work made with jigged machines, and the more detail you add, the more different it becomes. Looking at Sidney Barnsley’s chip carved hay-rake tables in the Cheltenham Museum it’s hard to imagine them being made by machine. And that is a big part of their appeal - they feel (to me anyway) more personal.

Another approach to hand tool use is that of David Charlesworth who seeks to equal or exceed the accuracy of machines with hand tools - 1 thou shavings etc. I’m not anti this at all, and it’s great to see people pushing the envelope in this way. However it’s worth at least being aware that it has very little to do with how woodworking has been done historically. One doesn’t need extreme accuracy to make lovely things...

I have found that clients’ understanding about what “handmade” means is very different from person to person. Some (not many to be honest) associate the word with hand tools, and would be disappointed to find their furniture had all been made with a router. Others just want to know that the furniture is individually made by a skilled craftsperson. 

The one thing that really gets my goat is when importers of crappy mass produced furniture promote it as handmade. It happens a lot, and to me this is just straightforward dishonesty.


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## bjm (6 Jan 2009)

Interesting debate....now I'll chip in.

I consider the term 'handmade' (or hand-crafted) to evoke a sense of skill and craftsmanship that has been relied upon in the development and production of a piece. This would generally be an individual piece but would include, for example, a set of dining chairs whereby production techniques would be employed in producing multiple components. Would that make the set a production piece rather than a handmade piece? 

It takes knowledge and skill to transform raw timber into a piece of furniture and whether you use a hand plane or a P/T to prepare your stock is hardly relevant. I would suggest the transition away from 'handmade' is when you can remove the craftsman from the equation. An automated factory can churn out replicas without skilled labour but someone skilled has to start that lengthy process and monitor it. The craftsman does it without thinking!


Brian


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## ike (6 Jan 2009)

Hand made - is when hand-eye coordination is employed to manipulate the material to the tool or vice versa. Requiring hand skill(s)


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