# Water resistant MDF or Ply for kitchen cabinets...?



## Stanleythecat (27 Mar 2014)

Hi Folks

New to the forum but would really appreciate some advice please. I'm about to undertake a new kitchen extension, bottom to top!

I will be making the kitchen cabinets from scratch and I was wondering what sheet material you would recommend? I have made a few bits and would say that I am confident that I can do a good job... I have to!

Having used pine on other projects it is too soft and seems to warp like crazy. So I'm plumping for sheet material carcasses and tulip poplar face frames/doors/draw fronts/kick board. I have a biscuit jointer and a pocket hole jig. I'm leaning towards biscuits at the moment but I'm wondering what to use. Water resistant MDF or Ply (and what ply should I be looking at?) Each has their own merits but I'm wondering what those in the know would use? The MDF was advised to me by a kitchen maker, it is stable and relatively cheap, however I'm worried about its long term durability and how it holds a joint.

All/any advise greatly welcomed.

Many thanks

Leo


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## Tierney (27 Mar 2014)

I recently made cabinets with ply carcass and poplar face frame and was very happy with the result. I believe this is how Neptune make their kitchens which are a cut above the high street names (Magnet, Homebase etc.)

The high street names use chipboard carcasses; which aren't great if they get wet, similar to MDF.

I use a far eastern ply, which is approx. £35 per sheet compared to approx. £18 for normal MDF. So for me it's a no brainer. Ply also holds screws well in the edge unlike MDF. The 18mm I use has about seven equal thickness plys, I've found this a lot better than others with thicker central plys and thin pale face plys. I buy this from my local basic timber merchant, so shouldn't be difficult to get hold of.

DT


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## Stanleythecat (27 Mar 2014)

Thanks DT. 

I have only used poor quality ply before and didn't know what I was looking for. It basically fell apart as I worked it. Srandard stuff from B&Q etc. Is there a name for your type of ply and do you mind me asking what fixing method you use?

Thanks again

Leo


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## carlb40 (27 Mar 2014)

Stanleythecat":2c75t8cq said:


> Thanks DT.
> 
> I have only used poor quality ply before and didn't know what I was looking for. It basically fell apart as I worked it. Srandard stuff from B&Q etc. Is there a name for your type of ply and do you mind me asking what fixing method you use?
> 
> ...


Have a look for birch ply, if i was making units it is what i would use.


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## chippy1970 (27 Mar 2014)

Mfc (egger) would be my choice unless you want birch ply. Mfc is very hard wearing and even the most expensive kitchens have mfc carcasses. One job I'm on has bulthaup kitchens which cost around £200,000 each and the carcases are still mfc.

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## RogerBoyle (27 Mar 2014)

+1 for what Chippy1970 wrote


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## Stanleythecat (27 Mar 2014)

Another new option! What's Mfc!


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## chippy1970 (27 Mar 2014)

Melamine faced chipboard

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## nanscombe (27 Mar 2014)

Mfc, what I know by the trade name Contiboard, I presume?


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## Stanleythecat (27 Mar 2014)

I think I'd rather try ply or mdf to be honest as it will be a painted finish. Doesn't conti board require more bespoke fixtures and other specialist tools to work with it?


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## chippy1970 (27 Mar 2014)

Stanleythecat":5qtkb9af said:


> I think I'd rather try ply or mdf to be honest as it will be a painted finish. Doesn't conti board require more bespoke fixtures and other specialist tools to work with it?



You didn't mention in your post that you wanted a painted interior. In that case don't use mfc as it's not the right material.

Yes conti board is mfc but it's very cheap poor quality stuff that's why if you look I put EGGER in brackets . Egger is more expensive but way better conti board is diy rubbish.

Personally I wouldn't have a painted interior as no matter what you do it with it will scratch in no time.




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## Otto (27 Mar 2014)

I personally wouldn't consider a painted interior. The finish just won't hold up. Plus, it's such a lot of work to do on all those cabinets - whether you spray or do them with a brush/ roller. Mfc is tricky to work without a panel saw equipped with a scoring blade, the edges chip easily. A better alternative might be melamine faced mdf. A lot depends on how you intend to attach the face frames. You are obviously concerned about water damage, but that will only happen on exposed edges if they get wet. Just make sure all the plumbing is done properly, sink and worktop joins well sealed etc and you should be ok.


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## Stanleythecat (27 Mar 2014)

Thanks Chippy. I'll look in to it then. Can it be screwed or biscuit joined?


Leo


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## Stanleythecat (27 Mar 2014)

Thanks Otto. I was told that the water resistant MDF was a better product. Denser and harder so those were the main reasons I was considering it. How do you cut melamine coated mdf?

Leo


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## jimmy rivers (27 Mar 2014)

We prefer (MFMDF) Melamine faced MDF, as we personally find MFC to have less edge support by the substrate and can therefore be prone to chipping/crumbling if not machined (sharp or in place i.e. CNC) or handled carefully. Melamine will quickly dull cutting edges and a Chip Substrate will very much add to this, leading to a poor edge finish unless tooling is kept tip-top or frequently replaced. Some cheaper MFC products can have a slightly lumpy finish from the telegraphing of the chipboard texture through to the surface from the pressing process.

Perhaps for consideration is a balance of (re)sharpening, set up and budget with MFC being cheaper than MFMDF. MFC may also have a greater selection of off-the-shelf surface patterns and effects to choose from.

+ 1 For Egger OR Kronospan MFC

We dimension MFC & MFMDF on a panel saw using a Triple Chip blade in conjunction with a scoring blade. Where possible and for large projects we out source to CNC. Our cabinets are assembled with Biscuits Joints and Dominos for face framing.


Have you considered a wood veneered MDF board to finish with a clear coat?

With regards to moisture resistance, as long as the edges are treated/ lipped / faced as you mention you'll be fine and unless there's a flood or a poor seal on the worktops I doubt you'll have any problems. 

+1 on Ply or Birch PLY if budget allows (you get what you pay for in this dept.) 

– 1 on painting cabinet interiors 

Cheers Jim


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## Tierney (28 Mar 2014)

Hi, I looked in the workshop and couldn't find a sticker on any of the sheets. In terms of construction, I used 5mm deep rabbets/dado's and 1.5" screws. Biscuits without rabbets will be fine.

DT


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## Stanleythecat (28 Mar 2014)

Thanks Jim (And DT)

SWMBO has a mind set on a painted beaded face frame kitchen (no doubt with some much deliberated Farrow & Ball paint!). On the plus side I have delegated the painting to her. We have chosen the BYO option as we can tailor the units and space exactly to our needs and maximise the space we have available. So it has come down to the usual caveats; durability, cost and can how I can fix it all together. I have a biscuit joiner and a pocket hole jig. I'm favouring the biscuits (although I'm not 100% sure how to clamp larger units; where there is a double door for instance) but the materials seem to be to have so many pro's and con's.

I won't be able to afford solid wood or birch ply.
Being honest I'm not sure what other grades of ply are suitable? 
MR MDF is looking like it could work... though it could balloon on joints.
Having looked through past posts Laminated MFC or laminated MDF has a high probability of getting damaged or chipped throughout the build. Is the better quality stuff the same?

I'm definitely going to opt for having it cut to size before hand as I won't be able to hadle such large sheets with my domestic set up!

Thanks guys it has been a real help to have your advice and also very enlightening.

Leo


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## nathandavies (28 Mar 2014)

From what I can gather from your posts, my suggestion would be mfc. because....
price, it's going to be the cheapest way to make your cabinets
durability, it will keep better than painted cabinets (personally unless it's a display cabinet I would not want to do a painted cabinet for everyday use, too likely to mark and damage)
durability mk2, unless a sledgehammer is part of your build tool box then damaging mfc shouldn't be an issue
as long as you aren't using monster screws and you do pilot, it shouldn't blow
it's lighter than mdf, which will help with fitting , especially the wall cabinets

nathan


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## Stanleythecat (28 Mar 2014)

Thanks Nathan.

As you can tell I'm learning more about these materials with every reply! and yes, no sledge hammer!

So the branded names of MFC are more robust. My non commercial experience has only seen the rubbish that comes from B&Q etc, the same for ply and the general poor quality of their warped wood too. 

On a plus side there won't be any wall units as it is a single story gable end extension with low eaves. There will however be a pantry cupboard and built in cookers so there could be some larger material (and weight) in those components.

Leo


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## nathandavies (28 Mar 2014)

In recent years I've only dealt with larger suppliers, lathams etc, who only deal with egger, medite and other quality suppliers.
it's been a while since I've been to b&q, but I remember how difficult it seems to get decent materials when you don't feel like you can go to the bigger suppliers. 
the difference between good and bad mdf is huge. some bad stuff will be a nightmare to get a good finish on, good mr mdf I can get the edges as good as the factory faces.

nathan


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## Stanleythecat (28 Mar 2014)

Well a friend of mine built his own kitchen sourcing it all 'locally', every door has warped, things have shrunk etc. It has been very helpful for me to see. Since then I have been using MDF as a stable material for fitted wardrobes, but this didn't come from B&Q/homebase etc and they are going on strong. I will also be aclimatising any timber that I bring in.

We have a lathams near to us so I'll see what they can offer. As you say, this will justify going to one of the larger suppliers.

Thanks again Nathan


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## chippy1970 (29 Mar 2014)

Biscuits and pocket hole screws will work great with mfc. I use dominoes and pocket hole screws. I have a rail saw for cutting sheet goods but to be honest any mfc I've had lately I've just had it cut up to size and edged for me by cutwrights. I just do an online cutting list then pay and collect a few days later. If you have a similar supplier near you it would save you time.

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## RobinBHM (29 Mar 2014)

As per other suggestions, mfc is the easiest option. Kronospan or Egger are both good. The board is made in 18mm with sheet sizes around 2800 x 2070, trade prices starting from £45.00 plus the dreaded. I tend to simply screw the carcases together with Confirmat screws from Hafele using the special drill bit.

Using a front frame construction allows for side cheeks where required so screwing the cabinets together is fine. I make the front frame rails 1mm smaller than the inside carcase width then screw the front frame on with battens. Front frames can be made just by screwing together -which works best if the shank holes are drilled on a drill press then assembly is done on a large flat board.

I think a wood grain mfc for the carcase interiors can be a lovely contrast to a hand painted kitchen.


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## oddsocks (29 Mar 2014)

RobinBHM":35zqnryh said:


> I tend to simply screw the carcases together with Confirmat screws from Hafele using the special drill bit.



I'd not heard of those before but a quick google shows how useful they are!
Thanks

Dave


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## Stanleythecat (31 Mar 2014)

Wow! Thanks for the advice. I hadn't heard of confirmats either.

What size would I use for 18mm board then?

I contacted Latham's and unfortuantely they only cut if you order 35 sheets or more! ... thats a little more than I need! On the hunt now for a company in the bristol area who will cut the sheets for me.

Leo


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## RobinBHM (31 Mar 2014)

The 50mm length ones are ideal for 18mm carcase material

I use 264.43.194 with the 001.22.485 drill (stepped 5mm -7mm -10mm)

The 4mm allen headed screws are much more positive for driving with a cordless. Cutting a length off an allen key works or a proper screwdriver hex bit.

The great thing about these is that the carcase parts are cramped and then through screwed. Once the first corner is together it becomes easier to line up parts. With care they can be disassembled as well. 

The best method is to use the cramps made for this (003.73.268) but they are now stupidly expensive. For fixed shelves the easiest way to assemble is to cut 2 pieces of board to the exact measurement of the shelf spacing.

I often buy just a few sheets from Meyer timber. Perhaps your best bet may be to call in to your local joinery shop and ask them if they could add to their next sheet material order (I always seem to be ordering sheets for site chippies, If you were local Id be happy to get some in for you). You could try Timbmet. 



Robin


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## Woodmonkey (31 Mar 2014)

Try Avon ply they have a cutting service and don't think there is a minimum order.


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## Shultzy (31 Mar 2014)

Leo, I used pocket hole screws for my kitchen carcases which means you don't need clamps, and that includes the face frames. There are many kitchen posts which will give you ideas, including mine which I finished a month a go.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/kitchen-refurb-t64150.html


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## Stanleythecat (1 Apr 2014)

Thanks Robin, those clamps look just the job, is there a jig alternative that anyone can recommend for corner clamping?

And thanks Shultzy, I have a pocket hole jig that I bought a year ago and thought I was going to use birch ply... until I found out how much it cost! I made some draws from ply from B&Q which was a big mistake as the poket hole screws just obliterated it! It was so soft I couldn't even clamp it easily as the clamps delaminated the ply! Would it work on MFC? (obs I won't be using that for drawers!)

So it also come down to material, what to use MFC? MR MDF? Ply (what grade for carcases?!!)? Pocket holes are good for ply and solid wood but I understand no so on the other sheet materials? 

So my can of worms has grown! MFC sounds like it could work but I won't be able to cut it without chipping it with the tools I have. The others need painting... hmm!

Leo


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## morfa (1 Apr 2014)

I've just built three cabinets out of Oak veneered MDF. I used a track / plunge saw to cut them up and then pocket hole jigs to join them all together. I wouldn't say I'm that experienced, but I've been woodworking for a year or two now. I've really struggled to get the carcasses perfectly straight and square. They're ok, but there's gaps here and there. Not massive, but still, they exist.

The pocket hole jigs will work on the MDF, you just have to be careful. Really careful. Also use the coarse kreg screws. Pocket holes are great I reckon. Really quick and easy to use. But if you have the biscuit jointer, then that might be a good way to go. But for most non-pros (and probably a lot of tradesmen) the pocket holes can't be beaten for ease of use and speed. Especially when you think a jig & bit will cost you £30.

The 18mm MDF cost me £41 inc VAT. IIRC, the Birch ply was £48 a sheet. I think that was inc VAT. Could be wrong tho. However for the sake of a few quid, I would *not* buy the MDF again. Get the Birch ply. It's much more solid, harder to damage (on all levels) works better with the pocket holes.

But really (and I say this has having just gone through the pain of putting together my own kitchen a few days ago) it's probably only a little bit more expensive to get someone else to make the carcasses for you. Then you can focus in on doing a really good job on the face frame and the doors. I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt and I'm not sure I'd want to go and do it again. Well maybe now I've got a better idea of what I'm doing, I would.

So yeah, BB/BB Birch ply, pocket holes and good luck!


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## Stanleythecat (2 Apr 2014)

Thanks Morfa.

I'm not a kitchen fitter/joiner etc just a chap having a go I suppose! My naivety probably shines through but we have a smallish kitchen and by building it myself I think we can maximise the useful space we have; not just multiples of 600mm. That said my work doesn't give me the chance to look back at a finished job anymore and really enjoy projects like this where I get to learn again. Sounds romanticised but to build something of value that is used everyday by my family will give me huge satisfaction! 

Is BB/BB the grade of ply by any chance? And yes I'm really being put off the MDF however the MR MDF is still a feint contender as I can cut it with the tools I have.


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## morfa (2 Apr 2014)

Stan - I'm not a kitchen fitter either and it's much harder than it looks. You can normally get cabinets which are 300/400/500 - wide. So that should allow you to get a good fit in the kitchen. Having the cabinets deeper is a pain as then you can't reach the back easily. Or can't reach the back of the worktop. If you can live with the mistakes that you'll make, then you're better than me. They wind me up something chronic. 

However if you've got the time and don't mind that it won't be that much cheaper than buying it all in, then it's worth a go. Especially if you factor in tools, as that's a major cost.

You're about an hours drive from my place, so if you want to pop over and I can show you what I've done then you're welcome to take a look. I can tell you all my mistakes then.

Yes, BB is the quality of the sides. This link explains it all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood#Grades


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## Stanleythecat (2 Apr 2014)

Very kind. Thanks Morfa. 

I've yet to dig the footings for the building so I'm a little while away from actual cabinet construction and just doing my homework! I might well pop over nearer the time if that's still ok then as it would be good to pick someone elses brain anyway.

Leo


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## morfa (2 Apr 2014)

Hopefully I'll be totally finished by then and it'll look smart.

My kitchen thread is here - wip-kitchen-worktops-and-cabinets-t76957.html


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## fluffflinger (9 Apr 2014)

As somebody who works in the kitchen industry can I make the folowing observations. MFC is the material of choice for almost all kitchen manufacturers and if I was you that is what I would stick with but quite frankly I would buy them in rather than try to construct yourself. 

I have read this thread and I can't see any mention of edging MFC. Not an easy job to do without a commercial edgebander and trust me cut up a sheet of MFC for a cabinets and see how many edges require treatment. 

We use an independent company to make all our carcasses with either 0.4 or 2mmABS edging dependent on the specification of the kitchen. They will make them in any colour (Egger make maybe 100 different coloured boards) and at prices that are so reasonable that I would never consider or advise anybody to build them from scratch. They will also make any cabinet any size so if you need a bespoke solution it is available. So buy them in you will not save money doing them yourself and without an edgbander you will struggle to get a professional finish. 

Then spend your time efforts and skills on making nice doors, let's be honest that's the bit people will admire and don't underestimate good planning there are more tricks to good design than you could imagine. I'm not advocating using and abusing but all kitchen companies will offer free design services, although we are seriously thinking of starting to charge, so go out and get some ideas. You might, if you are lucky get a measured drawing and can take that to a manufacturer.

Don't be offended it's just my opinion.


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## nathandavies (9 Apr 2014)

fluffinger what company do you use for your cabinets?

nathan


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## fluffflinger (9 Apr 2014)

Handcraft in Thrapston, although they are expanding and moving to Wellingborough. Can't recommend they highly enough, they will make anything any shape size or configuation. 

The other consideration I should have mentioned for the OP is having them fit your drawers system in the factory just leaving you to fit the fronts. Their buying power will save you cash and again time. We almost exclusively use use Blum for all our hardware.


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## the_g_ster (19 Apr 2014)

Good to see this thread up, I am just in the process of finishing my kitchen. 

So far, I have used oak faced MDF for the bases, finished with Rustins, that painted sides, with dulux diamond. It's holding up well, apart from a mark under the sink from a fabric softener bottle. Even the pots and pans cabinet has held up well too, so am pleased as the first I have done.

I am now finishing, but making a wall cabinet to go over a doorway and above a fridge. I have used BB ply, and is a faff to paint but slowly coming together. Some tips I have found, passed on by all of you guys at some point over the years:

- Look for european ply, more expensive, but better.
- Avoid far eastern ply if you can, it will have voids in the layers, and won't take screws well, worse than B&Q stuff even
- Finish the boards before you make the cabinet, then, if you have something like a festool and you're careful, you will only need to do a final layer.
- Buy the boards in person if you can, is annoying when they look like a banana board

What do people think of some kind of inlay in the inside of the cabinets? I would like to do a backlit cabinet in the next house, with glass shelves and a glass base. That could have painted side/wood/mfc but then the glass shelves would take pans etc without anything than a wipe over.

I guess the issue could be condensation on the glass, as if the house is cold, and you start cooking, then moisture will condense on it? Thoughts? 

I think it would look pretty cool if you opened a cabinet and it was backlit and looked good. I'm putting in down lights in the display cabinets I am making right now to take a teaset and some silverware.


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## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2014)

Stanleythecat":1orumpgo said:


> I think I'd rather try ply or MDF to be honest as it will be a painted finish. Doesn't conti board require more bespoke fixtures and other specialist tools to work with it?



Not necessarily. Maybe old plane blade if you're going to use a plane. 
You might want to score the surface before you cut, or put masking tape over the 'exit' side for the saw. Otherwise, work with the good face down, if you're cutting with a circular saw. Also arrange for any ragged edges to be hidden by adjacent cabinets. I think moisture resistant MDF should be okay. A bit heavy, but once in situ they won't move. 

Best for me is the water resistant plywood. Expensive, but it's for my own use.


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