# Sketchup - help or hinderance



## Mr T (21 Aug 2009)

Hi

After working with sketchup for about 18 months I am considering discarding it as a design aid. Two reasons:

- I am still not fluent enough to draw my ideas with ease, so my 
time spent designing has increased, I would prefer to be doing 
other things

- I find it stifles creativity. Using pencil and paper I can sketch a 
number of ideas in a brain storming session then go on to 
develop a preferred idea. I find sketchup incompatible with 
this process.


I wondered if others have come to a similar decision, or is it just me!

Chris


----------



## wizer (21 Aug 2009)

I think that if you are competent with a pencil and enjoy that way of working then there's nothing wrong with it. You could always do your designing with pencil and paper then draw your final design in sketchup either to present to your customer or to obtain a better visual 3d view. Reverting to this practise will give you more spare time to learn the more in depth stuff in sketchup.


----------



## RobertMP (21 Aug 2009)

I started off in work as a trainee draughtsman working on tracing paper in pencil and ink. After many years of drawing this way and getting pretty good at it I moved on to various cad systems before spending the latter part of my working life using AutoCad.

Now I only work out wooden designs for myself  I still have a working copy of AutoCad from when I closed the business but sketchup is now my tool of choice.

I hated sketchup at first and could not get on with it for ages. It needs a different way of thinking about things to make it work for you and it is not a CAD/CAM way .

The biggest 'secret' to it is components. Everything must be a component - no lines on the drawing anywhere that are not part of a component. draw a few lines for a part then even if it is unfinished make it a component.

And yes even now when I'm thinking how to go about something I do still scribble on the back of an envelope.... but I make it work in sketchup.


----------



## Mr T (21 Aug 2009)

Hi Robert


> The biggest 'secret' to it is components. Everything must be a component - no lines on the drawing anywhere that are not part of a component. draw a few lines for a part then even if it is unfinished make it a component.



Interesting. Why are components so important?

Chris


----------



## RobertMP (21 Aug 2009)

Because you can work the the piece you are interested in and not have to worry about anything around it getting edited. You can hide components from view to see past them, you can have mirrored table legs say and just edit one leg to put a taper the right way on all of them... the list goes on 

edit...
Another good one is say a mortice and tenon. draw one part say with the tenon and make it a component. Draw the mating part lines over the tenon you drew previously for the mortice and they will just be on the surface of the tenon component. Hide the tenon component and carry on drawing the part with the mortice... then make that a component.

You can copy the components away from the model to dimension them up for making and easy viewing.

The list of reasons really is a long one


----------



## matt (21 Aug 2009)

I used Sketchup for a while but found I was just recording what was in my minds eye so it was not helping me "create" anything. I've since reverted to pencil and paper because I get from A to B far quicker.

I guess a lot of it comes down to how you create and visualise something. For me it's in my head whereas for others the creation comes as part of the process of putting an idea down on paper/Sketchup/etc... I need a drawing for dimensions - that's about it.


----------



## Sgian Dubh (22 Aug 2009)

Mr T":1z7ppic7 said:


> After working with sketchup for about 18 months I am considering discarding it as a design aid.
> Chris



If your abilities to draw by hand are good enough that you can create a decent visual representation of the item you plan to make I don't see much point in using SketchUp or any other 3D programme for that matter, eg, 3D Studio Max, etc.

As furniture makers we generally don't make things that are so large and complex that a fairly quickly hand drawn representation won't work, and not just work, but work very well. I do see some visually quite stunning drawings of interiors and architectural representations created on StudioMax. They do seem to take weeks to create though, but then so might creating a hand drawn representation. take a long time too: but as I said earlier, we generally don't work on that scale of project.

In the early design stages, assuming you have the ability to draw, you can fill fifteen or twenty A3 pages with ideas and variations of those ideas in an hour or so. That gives you chance to get all those ideas out, spread the pages around you on the wall and refine the design from there or, alternatively, completely abandon what you've got so far and start again.

For a furniture designer I have no use for things like SketchUp or AutoCAD in the conceptualisation process. The process of creating the drawing on a computer is just a hindrance and stifles creativity because you're stuck within the step-by-step limitations of the programme. However, once you've got the idea developed to the point where a working drawing is required then I don't think it matters how you create that working drawing. I use both an old fashioned drawing board and, increasingly, AutoCAD.

One of the problems I have as someone that has to assess the design development of projects is the generally cheesy sameness of drawings created by users of SketchUp or other similar 3D programmes. It may be that the users of these programmes are not particularly competent at using them so they're struggling to get a good rendering just as much as if they can't draw by hand. 

I find that some of my students, for example, turn to SketchUp because they think it will save them the need to develop old fashioned drawing skills. Unfortunately, to be a designer, you need to develop design development and presentation skills one way or another and there are no shortcuts-- you either develop good enough hand skills or you have to develop good enoughcomputer programme skills.

I suppose the final problem I have with all these 3D programmes is that all the drawings look the same. Yes, it's obvious that the creators of the designs are individuals and that the pieces designed are different, but every project looks like it was drawn by Mr SketchUp or Mr Studio 3D Max-- there's little individuality between the drawing of one person and the next, even when the computer rendering is very sophisticated and created by a highly competent programme user.

On the other hand, 2D representations of the proposed item in a working drawing need to be as simple and clear as possible. AutoCAD, drawing board and T square or SketchUp will fit the bill fine for that. Slainte.


----------



## woodbloke (22 Aug 2009)

I have to agree with Richard here...I have no use for Sketchup and much prefer to use pencil and paper. 
One of the reasons why the 'murrican mag FWW is so good is that many of the drawings have been drawn and coloured by an individual...if you look carefully through each issue, there's a great variation in the style of each drawing (or set of drawings) showing that quite a few individuals have had an input. However the 'puter drawings just look like 'puter drawings...sterile- Rob


----------



## Steve Maskery (23 Aug 2009)

Hi Chris

I think the answer is, "Use what works for you".

Personally I think SU is excellent. Yes, it has its foibles, and I'm not the Expert that DaveR is, but I'm competent (except when I have to show others, like yesterday  ) and I find it a useful tool, not a hindrance.

Having said that, when I design a piece, it's usually pretty well formed in my head, SU is just to get it down on (electronic) paper. For me, the great advantage is that I can try several versions and see very well the effect of changing a height or a section profile, for example, without having to make mockups.

But if you feel it stifles you, then it's not a helpful tool, so ditch it.

Cheers
Steve


----------



## Mr T (29 Aug 2009)

Hi 

Firstly thanks to Robert for the components recommendation. I have tried "componentising"! my latest drawings and can see the benefit. But I still have my doubts about sketchup.

I originally started trying sketchup because I was not happy with presenting my rather juvenile hand drawings to prospective clients. THis lead on to my forsaking the drawing board. I then found that I was developing a mental block and design ideas were not developing as they had done in the past. I wonder if my time may have been better spent working on improving my hand drawing rather than the many hours trying to get a moulding to extrude along and edge or a rectangle to go where I wanted it etc etc!. 

Is it possible to earn to draw or is it just a gift? I suspect the former is the case, but we assume that the technological route will be easier than trying to develop complex hand/eye skills (a common problem with some woodworkers).

Seeing Richard's fine hand drawing of the infinity table in the "Anyone for a challenge" thread it is clear that it has more about it than the rather sterile computer produced drawings. Something which prospective clients may appreciate. 

I'll have to ask Richard for some drawing lessons!

Chris


----------



## SketchUp Guru (29 Aug 2009)

As Steve wrote, use what works for you. I find that using SketchUp makes it easier to work out ideas and variations. It's much faster for me than drawing with pencil and paper. It's also easier to see what something looks like from any other angle. Making exploded views and full size patterns is simple and there's no reason a SketchUp drawing has to look "sterile."


----------



## jlawrence (6 Sep 2009)

initially I'll rough things out on a piece of paper until I've got the basis of how I want it to look. Then I'll move to sketchup in order to get the dimensions right. Sketchup for me makes things a lot easier when it comes to cut lists. I do tend to ignore the number of boards it says I need as it never allows for kerf width or wood imperfections - it might be possible to make it do that but I've not yet found out how.


----------



## Mr T (6 Sep 2009)

Hi



> Sketchup for me makes things a lot easier when it comes to cut lists



'Scuse my ignorance, how do you get cutting lists from sketchup? That would be a help!

Also, question for Dave R., what "style" were you using on the drawings you posted? I'm in search of a less "sterile" style, I tend to use "earth modelling" at present.

Chris


----------



## Anonymous (6 Sep 2009)

Mr T

I come across this problem all the time with our students and CAD packages. A CAD package (although sketchup is not really a CAD package) is not the place to generate and define your ideas, it is the place to draw your final design and apply dimensions etc.

Draw on paper and render the final solution in SU - you will find a few small modifications in SU will refine your design. I use a true CAD package and when my 3D rendering is as i like it, the CAD package generates a set of dimensioned 2D engineering drawings form which I can work - this is what CAD is really used for, the generation of working schematics from which someone can work


----------



## bob321 (6 Sep 2009)

i use turboCAD 16






this was a speaker stand that i was going to make out of concrete


TC uses lightworks for 3D photorelestic rendering


*bob321*


----------



## Steve Maskery (6 Sep 2009)

I assume you intended to listen to Handel's Water Music?
I'll get me coat.
S


----------



## bob321 (6 Sep 2009)

the ocean background makes it stand out better



*bob321*


----------



## Sgian Dubh (6 Sep 2009)

Bob, I don't get any visual sense of scale from your image of the column, and inserting it with hard edges into a backdrop of an underwater scene seems incongruous.

I don't claim photorealism for this image as it is obviously hand drawn-- it took perhaps five minutes or so, but I do think a viewer can at least get some idea of the different scales the two columns are meant to represent. Slainte


----------



## SketchUp Guru (7 Sep 2009)

Mr T":3cbqlrgo said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chris, sorry for the delay in replying. I've been off looking at steam powered tractors and things. Now I blowing coal soot out of my lungs. 

As to your questions, cutting lists are available via a free plugin for SketchUp. I'll get the link for you shortly but I believe there's at least one post in the forum already that talks about it.

As to the styles, there are several different ones I don't recall which one I used for the cabinet with the glass doors. The four similar tables uses a style I created from an existing sketchy line style and an image of stained paper I found somewhere.


----------



## dicktimber (14 Sep 2009)

Total hinderance.
No perspective, in size.
May look good on screen, but may look terrible when built

you can't use it as a full length check (rod)

Good for ideas but otherwise paper and pencil for me.

Mike


----------



## SketchUp Guru (14 Sep 2009)

dicktimber":270807w6 said:


> No perspective, in size.



Not true. Not true at all. It is very easy to add context to a SketchUp model to accurately show perspective and scale.


----------



## BradNaylor (17 Sep 2009)

I'm still trying to get to grips with Sketchup but don't see it as an aid to design at all.

I envisage still designing with a pencil and paper and only then refining the concept with a Sketchup model for the purposes of selling the design to the client and preparing a cutting list.


----------



## OPJ (17 Sep 2009)

While I do prefer to stick with a pencil and paper initially, I do find SketchUp is great for demonstrations (to clients and also on the forums) and it can help with constructional details (thinking along the lines of 'mechanisms' for extending dining tables...).


----------



## Ross K (2 Nov 2009)

From anecdotal evidence, 99% of pro makers (me included) consider Sketchup (or alternative similar drawing packages) not just a help but essential.

For 1000 reasons it is simply the best way to take a hand drawn design sketch into production. Like many makers, I have strong drawing skills and have real sketchbooks full of drawings that are added to on a daily basis. 

Sketchup is not good enough on its own, I agree with that - my pencil and paper are just as essential - but for efficient use of costly time in pursuit of making accurate furniture it is simply invaluable.


----------



## Mrs Oryx (9 Nov 2009)

I do not claim to be a designer but I find that even I (a Chartered Accountant in my former life) can produce a model of a design so that the customer can visualise it. My hand sketches are not close to what Sgian Dubh can produce and I certainly would spend significantly more time trying to do that to a level I would be happy for a customer to see.

Most customers I have done this for have enjoyed being able to play around with the model themselves also.

BUT I definately wouldn't start with a blank screen. The idea has got to be pretty firm either on my back of an envelope paper or from the client or Oryx Design before I begin.

Oryx Design has his "proper" technical drawings but we find most customers really can't read these and we have come across problems where we thought a detail was clear in the plans but was not 'seen' by the customer until the furniture was made and being fitted.

I believe that the conceptualising, (sp?) sketching and production of the technical drawings are 3 different tasks and skills. You don't need the same tool for all of them.


----------

