# Pivoting Dowel Screws



## AlwaysLearning (19 Jun 2018)

I was pondering how to joint something and I started to think about a dowel screw. You know the sort of thing I mean; wood screw thread on one end, machine screw thread on the other.

Thing is, I'd need it at the perfect angle which might be tricky. My obvious solution to that would be one with a pivot in the middle. Googled it, can't find it.

Does anyone know if they are made?


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## Jacob (19 Jun 2018)

AlwaysLearning":1s3i3158 said:


> ...... You know the sort of thing I mean; wood screw thread on one end, machine screw thread on the other..


Why not just bend them?


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## Doug71 (19 Jun 2018)

Could you use a Zipbolt handrail connector?

https://www.axminster.co.uk/zipbolt-hal ... tor-504431

I'm sure you could use a normal nut on the end if the large allen key tightening thing didn't work in your situation?


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## AlwaysLearning (19 Jun 2018)

Jacob":3hoyvj4k said:


> AlwaysLearning":3hoyvj4k said:
> 
> 
> > ...... You know the sort of thing I mean; wood screw thread on one end, machine screw thread on the other..
> ...



Again, this would mean bending to the exact angle, probably before installing, which might be tricky. Could still be an option tbough


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## AlwaysLearning (19 Jun 2018)

Doug71":1xinnjsb said:


> Could you use a Zipbolt handrail connector?
> 
> https://www.axminster.co.uk/zipbolt-hal ... tor-504431
> 
> I'm sure you could use a normal nut on the end if the large allen key tightening thing didn't work in your situation?



Thought about one of them, but I think it would be too short. And the machine screw is a left hand thread so I'd need to source a left handed coupling nut with a fine metric thread, and sacrifice another zipbolt to get a length of left hand threaded rod. 

Again, can't rule it out, but a source of pivoting dowel screws would be the ideal. Probably in the isle in a DIY shed next to wirenetting seeds :?


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## LancsRick (19 Jun 2018)

What are you trying to achieve? People on here might know an alternative solution.


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## AlwaysLearning (19 Jun 2018)

LancsRick":d357ibin said:


> What are you trying to achieve? People on here might know an alternative solution.



Probably a thread in it's own right, but here's a piccie which is pretty close to my situation.







Must stress I'm only thinking through the project just now, not decided on specific parts, and doubt I have free time to even do it until the tail end of this year at the earliest.

Just exploring how to make that joint leaving nothing visible.


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## katellwood (19 Jun 2018)

are you wanting to close up the mitre or fix the handrail to the newel (or both in one hit) 

If its just the handrail joint then a basic handrail bolt will do it also include a couple of dowels to prevent twisting/maintaining alignment 

To make one just get a length of studding and two nuts and washers, one of the nuts can remain hexagon (or a dowel nut will do) the other will need vertical sawcuts put into it so as the joint can be tightened. You need to drill a hole through each mitred face then chop a mortice from the underside to intersect with this hole. to maintain accuracy draw round a piece of ply using the mitred face as a template then position your handrail bolt hole and dowel holes in this piece of ply and use it as an alignment jig to position the holes into the mitred faces

You assemble the joint by pushing the hex nut and washer into one mortice then insert the studding into the hole and start the thread. now the annoying bit you now need to insert the slotted nut/washer into mortice whilst inserting the studding in the hole and with a slotted screwdriver tap the slotted nut round to catch the thread of the studding (grinding a taper on the studding helps this procedure), keep tapping the slotted nut round until the joint is tight .

if you chose to strengthen the joint with dowels drill one side as a tight fit but widen the holes on the other to facilitate a bit of adjustment if you use UF glue to assemble the long open time will allow longer to assemble the joint and gap fill the larger hole for the dowels. all mortices etc will be hidden by the balusters or the joint itself. 

The joint into the newel, mortice and tenon then draw dowel or just cramp 

Hope this helps and more importantly you understand my explanation


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## katellwood (19 Jun 2018)

A similar joint I did some time ago


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## Jacob (19 Jun 2018)

AlwaysLearning":3eflhpe7 said:


> LancsRick":3eflhpe7 said:
> 
> 
> > What are you trying to achieve? People on here might know an alternative solution.
> ...


That's not a joinery problem it's a design problem badly resolved. Back to the drawing board!


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## AlwaysLearning (19 Jun 2018)

Jacob":3fcevhby said:


> That's not a joinery problem it's a design problem badly resolved. Back to the drawing board!



Care to expand on that statement?


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## AlwaysLearning (20 Jun 2018)

katellwood":1iizpht2 said:


> are you wanting to close up the mitre or fix the handrail to the newel (or both in one hit)
> 
> If its just the handrail joint then a basic handrail bolt will do it also include a couple of dowels to prevent twisting/maintaining alignment
> 
> ...



I was hoping to make both joints in one go, hence a pivoting dowel screw. 

Mind you, I was thinking of a half moon washer, and having read through your reply, I realise a square hole is going to take up far less space.

Mortise and tenon joint between the stubby bevel and the newel does appear to be an obvious solution, and I was so caught up with the pivot idea, it hadn't crossed my mind. Doweling it would certainly lock it in place, but then I realised I could also use a wood screw since the head would be hidden by the other handrail and the joint really won't be taking any huge loading.


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## PAC1 (21 Jun 2018)

AlwaysLearning":22ea9pwm said:


> Jacob":22ea9pwm said:
> 
> 
> > That's not a joinery problem it's a design problem badly resolved. Back to the drawing board!
> ...


It used to be resolved by a double Newel post. So rather than a 4” x 4” Newel an 8” x 4” Newel. Then the handrail can fit between a Newel post rather than planted onto the side.


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## Jacob (21 Jun 2018)

PAC1":378fu919 said:


> AlwaysLearning":378fu919 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":378fu919 said:
> ...


Yes, or something along those lines!
It's hard to see quite what has happened in the photo - is it two false newel posts in a modified stairway? It just looks all wrong to me.


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## ED65 (21 Jun 2018)

AlwaysLearning":37dvj690 said:


> Thing is, I'd need it at the perfect angle which might be tricky.


If a dowel screw would still suit and exact alignment of the holes in both pieces would be tricky or impossible to achieve then drill one side very loose to allow enough play, at time of installation you just use filled epoxy to bed the other end in. Simples. And it ends up far stronger than if threaded into the wood as originally intended.


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## AlwaysLearning (21 Jun 2018)

Jacob":1yj2dja0 said:


> PAC1":1yj2dja0 said:
> 
> 
> > It used to be resolved by a double Newel post. So rather than a 4” x 4” Newel an 8” x 4” Newel. Then the handrail can fit between a Newel post rather than planted onto the side.
> ...



That's just aesthetics. I'm sure it might suit some stair configurations, but it wouldn't suit mine.


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## custard (21 Jun 2018)

ED65":38dwfjad said:


> If a dowel screw would still suit and exact alignment of the holes in both pieces would be tricky or impossible to achieve then drill one side very loose to allow enough play, at time of installation you just use filled epoxy to bed the other end in. Simples.



You've never actually done this have you Ed? Otherwise you'd know that "simples" isn't the word that jumps to mind, "giant faff" is more like it!

There are two hassles with this technique; preventing the epoxy dribbling out, and preventing epoxy squeeze out which is a pig to clear up.

When I've done this on furniture joints it has required experimentation to determine the specific metered dose of epoxy that will fill the mortice yet not splurge everywhere when the metal dowel is inserted, and a two stage sequential glue-up that at both stages uses gravity to keep the epoxy where it's supposed to be...not easy with an already installed newel post!


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## AlwaysLearning (21 Jun 2018)

custard":3gh5c77s said:


> ED65":3gh5c77s said:
> 
> 
> > If a dowel screw would still suit and exact alignment of the holes in both pieces would be tricky or impossible to achieve then drill one side very loose to allow enough play, at time of installation you just use filled epoxy to bed the other end in. Simples.
> ...



Good points. If I go down this route, I have to assemble with the new post flat, set the dowel screw in the epoxy, then disassemble before fitting the newel. Certainly an option and a timely reminder for me to think of the order I'd fit the different elements.


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## ColeyS1 (21 Jun 2018)

Here's how I would do it. 




Screw the short return piece of handrail to the long bit.Seems pointless over complicating it when a simple drawbored mortise and tenon would do the job.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## AlwaysLearning (21 Jun 2018)

ColeyS1":1r9nrwec said:


> Here's how I would do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice but I'd just glue the tenon since I'm aiming to not touch the visible faces.


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## ED65 (21 Jun 2018)

LOL


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2018)

I've joined hand rail to newels, including funny angles, by inserting loose tenons made of beech, into the post (at the right angle), then cutting an open mortice into underside of hand rail and dropping it on to the tenons, with lashings of glue and a dpwel pin through if necessary. Careful setting out and basic woodwork, but no ironmongery at all.


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