# Tongue and groove setup



## JesseM (5 Jul 2006)

I'm trying to cut a tongue and groove with a Sargent 1040 (I think similar to #45) and am having a hard time figuring it out. I sharpened up the tongue cutter and am messing with that at the moment. I initially just tried to reference off of the skates but the skates limit the depth of cut or if I increase the depth of cut the skates no longer make contact. I actually did cut a pretty decent 1-2 mm groove. I then tried referencing off the fence, which caused me to stagger a lot.

I guess I just can't figure what to reference off of. The board I am experimenting with is 3/4" and the cutter should produce a 1/4" tongue. Very confused :-k


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## MikeW (5 Jul 2006)

Hi Jesse,

Please pardon what may be pedantic or simply what you already know.

The fence regulates the distance in for the tongue. The adjustable "button" on the tonguing cutter is used to regulate the depth of the tongue itself.

When cutting the tongue, set it for a very light cut and begin with a sharp cutter. Work like cutting a groove--beginning from the far end and work towards the near end. Keep the fence firm against the board.

Once the whole length is thus defined, advance the cutter a little and cut to the depth, usually a couple quick passes, beginning from the far end again but now you can start say about 1/3 of the way from the far end. Then take a pass beginning from say 2/3 of the way from the far end, and then from the near end all the way down. Advance the cutter, and do it all over again. Only advance the cutter a tiny turn at a time.

With experience on a given board, you will learn how much adjustment you can get away with once the tongue is defined.

Keep the fence and skate waxed. You will get into a rhythm of advancing the cutter, a swipe of wax etc.

Take care, Mike


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## JesseM (5 Jul 2006)

MikeW":3b56twxx said:


> Hi Jesse,
> 
> Please pardon what may be pedantic or simply what you already know.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mike. I do not know how to use this plane at all. I tried cutting dadoes with it once and gave up due to frustration. In this case since I was running with the grain I thought it might be a bit easier.

I tried your advice and I did make some progress but I can see that it requires a steady hand. Whenever I get going pretty good the plane would rock a wee bit and tear through the groove. I almost wanna try and build a tongue and groove plane just to see if it works any better.

Thanks again!


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## MikeW (5 Jul 2006)

You're welcome.

The book Planecraft is a decent book for how the various planes work, iirc. But even at that, the very best advice is to have the cutter truly sharp and set to take very little until the tongue is established. Hard to help via long distance beyond that little tidbit.

But you're not alone. Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined. But like her, I like the beasts for many tasks.

I think you'll find a dedicated pair of wood planes for T&G will have you wondering how you ever got along without them. They will cut that quick and well. And without much thought.

Take care, Mike


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## JesseM (5 Jul 2006)

MikeW":1atyvvla said:


> You're welcome.
> But you're not alone. Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined. But like her, I like the beasts for many tasks.
> 
> I think you'll find a dedicated pair of wood planes for T&G will have you wondering how you ever got along without them. They will cut that quick and well. And without much thought.
> ...


I can understand its attraction, but that lack of a mouth and wider reference surface makes it very touchy. I wonder if increasing the size of the fence would help. Its such a small thin thing right now. :idea: 

I looked at a few pics of the dedicated t&g planes. Did they ever make a wooden adjustable t&g plane. I've seen 2 styles. The one with both the t&g on one plane and the other is the pair like you described. Is there any disadvantage to having the t&g on one plane?


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## deirdre (5 Jul 2006)

Actually, I really like a Stanley 48 (or 49) for tongues and grooves.


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## MarcW (5 Jul 2006)

Hi Jesse,

Check these, at the risk you have already done:

1. The fence and the skates have to be parallel one to the other. It'll be best checked at the height of the rods.

2. The cutter has to sit cleanly in. If it is a little bit tilted the flanks will dang in the sides of the groove and that will make the plane stagger.

3. You can hone the sides of the cutter, they will produce a very sharp and clean edge in the groove, this is not indispensable.

4. May I add to Mike's description once again that you have to look at the fence tight to the board and never see a gap inbetween. Any tilting will produce a source for stagging. 

Hope I could help,

Marc


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## Anonymous (5 Jul 2006)

Hi, 

My first attempts at T&G was with a stanley 45. Advice given already seems to cover everything.....I don't know if this will help. 
Some pictures in it at least on T&G with my 45. 
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=29848
You may find an easier way of doing it. 

Its particularily important that the fence and skates are parallel, like MarcW said, I think. Even though the fence seems to run parallel on its rods, there's often too much play. With a long combination plane like the 45 it doesn't take much skew of the fence to cause a binding problem....I'd check fore and aft of blade with calipers to ensure the fence is the same distance from the skate throughout. 

I agree that waxing definetly helps. Slippery wax is best I reakon. But each to their own. I've found sometimes if I use dry wax it can actually bog down the plane....some kind of bogged down suction sort of thing going on.....or maybe I just put too much on.  

I believe also, you'll find, the plane easier to control with a deeper wooden face, which you can take advantage of in Tongue and grooving cause the timbers clamped on its edge....ie. deeper wooden face of fence on wide portion of timber = ideal stability. You've got more leaverage to ensure the plane stays tight to the timber and stays vertical. 

Another thing I just thought of. I have a sargent version of a stanley 45. I don't know its official name but I assume its the same one as yours. 

The one I have has casting flaws. Unlike the stanley 45's the skates in my sargent are cast steel. The sliding skate part has a big wind in it, making the thing unusuable. So, if I was you I'd check that the skates are straight with a ruler......If the skates have even a little wind in them, the plane may bog down in the similar way as having the fence set out of parallel. 

Also ensure that the blades corners protrude out the side of the skate. Flush is often not good enough. More bogged down planing.....

Some things to consider. I have to go.....baby's crying. 

Goodluck.


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## Paul Chapman (5 Jul 2006)

Great link, Jake and nice pictures - very helpful :wink: 

Paul


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## MarcW (5 Jul 2006)

Jesse,

It has been a little early this morning, so I wrote groove instead of tongue.  Things I said apply to the groove cutter too. I can add that the inner sidewalls of the notch of the tongue cutter can be honed too, at the risk of course not fitting anymore to the groove cutter. So better go on slowly. 

As it is for woodies T&G, the fence is minimal just an edge and you have to do all the job holding steady and upright. I have both woodie and #45 and I often opt for the #45, when having time to adjust.

Another early morning fault, I meant talking of the Sargent 1085, similar to the #45 from Stanley and was taught better later on in the morning by google. You don't have a pic or a link, where I could see the boat anchor?

Marc


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## JesseM (5 Jul 2006)

Last night I made a larger fence for it and it improved the stability greatly. Sorry I think I said 1040 and it is a 1080. Here is a pic:







Is it just me or does the cutter from that article have a skew on the blade? The increased fence size and that ubeaut article have given me the desire to try this thing again.

Thanks for all the replies.


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## MikeW (5 Jul 2006)

Jesse, 

Jake [a.k.a. apricotripper on the ubeat forum] has tons of great posts over there. His joining here is a wonderful thing for both of us--we get his insights and he gets new victims :lol: ...

Take care, Mike
former owner of a Sargent 1080 PB...


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## Paul Chapman (5 Jul 2006)

MikeW":3mop8dnm said:


> The book Planecraft is a decent book for how the various planes work, iirc.



Jesse,

If you look here http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/record405.htm it's the instruction manual for the Record 405 Multiplane which is more or less what's covered in 'Planecraft' and covers the use of the cutters for tongue and groove work.

Hope this helps :wink: 

Paul


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## JesseM (5 Jul 2006)

I am having another sort of problem. It really bites towards the end of the board, but hardly at all near the beginning. I've included some photos which I hope illustrate this:











I am making sure that I am putting weight in the tote area so as to not put to much pressure on the front. I am looking to see why its not digging in but I can't tell. Could it be the skates? Do the skates need to be both parallel and even when they touch. I think they are parallel but one side may be a little higher than the other. Jake, I noticed you mentioned some casting flaws in yours. Is this something that can be rehabilitated?


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## MarcW (5 Jul 2006)

JesseM":vsjmob8v said:


> ... Could it be the skates? Do the skates need to be both parallel and even when they touch. I think they are parallel but one side may be a little higher than the other.



Jesse,

In this set-up the skates should'nt touch, because one skate should be left and the other right to the tongue. This gives excellent support to the plane. You won't plane off much if the skates not properly inbetween the cutting edge of the blade. Maybe the rear part is not parallel and reaches on the tongue part of the cutter. 

If it helps I can post a pic later of the setup.

Marc


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## MarcW (5 Jul 2006)

Jesse,

Here my set-up. Sometimes one of the screws gets lose as happened to me right now. Take care of the screws fixing the rods to the main body. They should be checked first. Then installing the blade. Then positioning the second skirt parallel to the first and then the fence in the upper holes parallel to the second skirt.






Hope this helps,
Marc


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## Paul Chapman (5 Jul 2006)

Jesse,

One other thought. On my Stanley #45 I found that the fine adjustment screw on the fence (you can see it in Marc's picture above) was protruding and pressing on the wooden fence causing it to bow outwards slightly in the centre. This was easily solved by removing the wooden fence and drilling a clearance hole where the screw was pressing on it.

I'm not sure whether your plane has this fine adjustment screw (doesn't look like it from your photo) but I thought I'd mention it anyway :wink: 

Paul


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## JesseM (5 Jul 2006)

Thanks Marc. What I meant by parallel was that the skates are an equal distance from one another. I do have them separated and supporting the blade.

Paul, I will check that. There is something hanging it up I just haven't found it yet.


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## Paul Chapman (5 Jul 2006)

Jesse,

If you look at the photos in the link Jake provided, one of them shows his original wooden fence resting on the deeper wooden fence he made. In between the two screw holes on the original fence you can see a small indentation - so it looks like the fine adjustment screw on his Stanley #45 was pressing on the wooden fence on his plane, just like it was on mine. Might be a common problem with the Stanley #45, but one you are unlikely to notice unless you unscrew the wooden fence :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (6 Jul 2006)

MikeW":6f8sggz3 said:


> Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined.


Gasp :shock:

Don't like to disappoint... :wink: I'm a bit mazed at the mo' to comment intelligently, but fwiw Stan Faullin has a copy of the Sargent manual here (not sure if that's been mentioned or not). 

Cheers, Alf


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## JesseM (6 Jul 2006)

Alf":1470eq78 said:


> MikeW":1470eq78 said:
> 
> 
> > Though this will make Alf gasp--it's combo planes that have traditionally caused more cursing in a shop than all planes combined.
> ...


Thanks Alf. The only one of those I have found have been on ebay, and I wasn't willing to pay many dollars just to figure out how to use the thing from 50 years ago. But I have wanted to glimpse at it to see what it says.


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## Anonymous (7 Jul 2006)

Sorry, I took so long to reply. I get around to everything eventually. 



JesseM":1elr54t5 said:


> ....... Jake, I noticed you mentioned some casting flaws in yours. Is this something that can be rehabilitated?



I suppose that depends on how badly out of straight the skates are. I did manage to lap the wind out of the skate in the main body of my sargent, off grit on a flat surface....cast wears off very fast as you'd know, so it didn't take long. Probably a good idea to true the sides anyway. 

You might want to be careful about wearing away too much meat around the nickers though (remove them first).....personally I think the nickers you get with 45 like planes are rubbish. Their not depth adjustable. So I never use these planes accross grain. So, it wouldn't bother me if they were lapped out of the picture, if it mean't the plane could be made to work. But destroying the nicker area may bother you...

Planes like this don't cut particularily cleanly accross grain anyway, because its got a square bed. 

But I suspect something else is wrong if your getting a bottle neck sort of result when using that matching cutter (when cutting the tongue). Only because each skate is in the middle of a wide portion of blade....meaning, you'd have to have those skates badly out of parallel for that to be the problem...In fact I don't think its a factor with the matching cutter at all. Though it would be good practise still make a habit of keeping the skates and fence parallel. Its very important for cuts like ploughing etc. 

Basically, you can often work out the problem, if you ask yourself.....'what will inhibit this thing in use? '

here's some things I can think of right now....
- as the plane drops into the cut a side portion of the skate rubs the wall of the groove or whatever you've just cut, which will either make the plane hard to push or stop it altogether etc. Now that can be caused by .....
- skates and fence out of parallel...(the most common problem)
- the skates arn't straight (like I've mentioned with my sargent)...
- the blades too flush or actually inside the skate. 
- the blade doesn't flare...meaning a portion of the blade higher up may push off the wall.

I suspect I might confuse you when I say 'flare'.....pictures would help here. I haven't the time just now to get some photos of my sargent....but you can check out this thread.....
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=33429
If you skip the start, and check out the photo's near the end I talk about flaring nickers. Well, ideally, when you sharpen and set your main blades you should try and flare them as well.....generally, leads to a cleaner cut, and frees up your plane. 

Is the matching cutter of your sargent when set in the plane, peaking out the bottom of the skates equally ?..Do the inner sides of the blade flare ? (see that T&G thread I listed in my first post)

Another possible problem, I just thought of, which I've had to fix in a stanley no.50 I have, is, the soles not flat. I know the soles just two skates in the sargent, but if the skates aren't flat in relation to one another, just like a regular bench plane, it'll cause problems.....

but now its getting complicated. I must start a new thread on this, so I can be clear. Combination planes have got a bad reputation, but trued up, they can perform just as nicely as any other plane....in my opinion. 

oh yeah, like Marc said. Make sure those thumbscrews don't slip ! ...not good. I often nip them just a little tighter with plyers to ensure they never slip. ....I better stop. Goodluck.


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## JesseM (7 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":hgz0ov9o said:


> Sorry, I took so long to reply. I get around to everything eventually.
> 
> Another possible problem, I just thought of, which I've had to fix in a stanley no.50 I have, is, the soles not flat. I know the soles just two skates in the sargent, but if the skates aren't flat in relation to one another, just like a regular bench plane, it'll cause problems.....


What a dearth of information. I think this is the single most useful bunch of info I have ever seen on combo planes. =P~ 

From what I have been able to tell so far is that the sole is not flat. I know this because it is cutting more aggresively on one side of the tongue than the other. The other reason is that I have measured it. I also checked along the length of skates for flatness and this is a bit harder to tell. It seems there is a high spot around the nicker on the main body side. I hope that is clear. So I will attempt to try and true this up a bit and reread all this info, and let you know how it goes.

Did you make that dovetail cutter yourself? It really is quite bizarre looking, but it definitely seems to work.


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## Paul Chapman (7 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":1jl09011 said:


> you can check out this thread.....
> http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=33429



That's a great link, Jake - some really interesting stuff. Got any more like that :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (7 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":3qjucnoy said:


> Combination planes have got a bad reputation, but trued up, they can perform just as nicely as any other plane....in my opinion.


Too true. It annoys the heck out of me that folks spend aeons fettling bench planes without turning a hair, yet dismiss all combination planes out of hand without even learning how to set one up properly. You done good, Jake. 

FWIW I've had skates that weren't straight, skates that weren't flat, fence rod holes that were bored at an angle so the skates and fence would never lie paralllel, fence faces put on upside down, convex fences, concave fences, you name it. Never ever assume a plough, combination or universal plane is ready to work when you get it. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (8 Jul 2006)

Alf":2px8mkb1 said:


> FWIW I've had skates that weren't straight, skates that weren't flat, fence rod holes that were bored at an angle so the skates and fence would never lie paralllel, fence faces put on upside down, convex fences, concave fences, you name it. Never ever assume a plough, combination or universal plane is ready to work when you get it.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I think your spot on Alf. I think, partly, its the illusion that all it takes is a turn of a knob or a slide of the fence and the planes ready to work. Not as simple as that. One must get an eye in close, with a ruler or whatever and check everything prior to use. And once you get a setting right, lock it hard so it never slips. 

And combination planes have plenty of adjustments. Its no wonder they've got a bad rep. Which is kinda of good in a way. :lol: Means they go cheap. I've got five no.50's, two no.45's, two no.55's, two no.44's, five no.43's....Each I bought as cheap as $10AU, and never any more than $40AU. Granted a lot were bought with parts missing. But, I like that, cause I can afford to experiment and have the occational stuffup. 

I feel if you cover all the bases, you can feel such confidence that you needent bother about test cuts. 

The ultimate goal is, effortless planing. Which in a nutshell means, the only parts of your plane that touches the wood is the very edge of your sharp blade, from corner to corner, the sole of your plane (not any part of the side) and a waxed up fence and the depth stop when it finally bottoms out.....Everything else should just fly through the cut freely.....woooooshhh ! , effortless stuff. Lot of pleasure in that, and productive. 

*. Got any more like that *
Hi paul, I have. But, honestly, I'm affraid of resembling a know it all. I'm very passionate about handplanes. I put much thought into it, as you can tell I suppose. Still learning. And some of the stuff I written about I've changed my mind on as well.  So its all just opinionative of course. 

I have got another modification on the record 43. The record 43 is my favorite. I love its simplicity and size, and leaves plenty of room for modification. 
This one's basically just a small moving fillister. But it allows me to cut small tennons very quickly. 
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... post326464
I should point out though. I stuffed up the thread a bit. Same with that other record 43 mod. I kept refering to the Stanley 289 as a Stanley 278.  I'm not sure why. I must have been thinking of the stanley 78 when I was writing it, which the 289 resembles in size....anyway.


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":1049kjug said:


> Hi paul, I have. But, honestly, I'm affraid of resembling a know it all. I'm very passionate about handplanes. I put much thought into it, as you can tell I suppose.



Hi Jake,

Passionate - you bet. I've just spent the last hour following your various links on the Aussie forum. It's been some of the most entertaining and informative stuff I've read in a long time. Hope you will keep it up, its brilliant 8) 8) 

Paul


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## Anonymous (8 Jul 2006)

JesseM":3oxpjojh said:


> From what I have been able to tell so far is that the sole is not flat. I know this because it is cutting more aggresively on one side of the tongue than the other. The other reason is that I have measured it. I also checked along the length of skates for flatness and this is a bit harder to tell. It seems there is a high spot around the nicker on the main body side. I hope that is clear. So I will attempt to try and true this up a bit and reread all this info, and let you know how it goes.
> .



I think I understand what you mean. Its tricky trying to describe these things eh :lol: 

Truing those skates is a bit involved however. I'll start a new topic on it here someday soon with plenty of pictures. I'm finding it too hard to describe how I'd do it with just paragraphs. . 



JesseM":3oxpjojh said:


> Did you make that dovetail cutter yourself? It really is quite bizarre looking, but it definitely seems to work.



yes I did. I ground it up from an old hand file. It simplier than it looks. I think around the last post in that topic I've attached some close up photos of it, if interested. 

Whats exciting about these blades, is that you can fashion them to sit any many types of combination planes like 55's and 45's etc. Skewed blades generally make cleaner cuts, cause you can orientate them to cut with the grain. 

Which reminds me about the blades that came with my sargent. I found them pretty soft.....bit of bad news. But then I might have got a bad batch with my plane. Yours might wear better.


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## JesseM (8 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":1smh83lr said:


> Whats exciting about these blades, is that you can fashion them to sit any many types of combination planes like 55's and 45's etc. Skewed blades generally make cleaner cuts, cause you can orientate them to cut with the grain.
> 
> Which reminds me about the blades that came with my sargent. I found them pretty soft.....bit of bad news. But then I might have got a bad batch with my plane. Yours might wear better.


Well to be honest I haven't had a real chance to put them to the test. The latest try with the tongue cutter has shown it to last moderately. But I can tell it is dulling fast. Did you soften the file up first to shape it or just use a grinder on it?

Since I had such a bad experience cutting dadoes with this thing I would like to try a skewed cutter to see if its any better. But first the rehab. :twisted:


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## Alf (8 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":adgbkj6q said:


> I've got five no.50's, two no.45's, two no.55's, two no.44's, five no.43's....


See? In comparison I don't have any kind of problem at all... :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2006)

Alf":17os3amc said:


> Jake Darvall":17os3amc said:
> 
> 
> > I've got five no.50's, two no.45's, two no.55's, two no.44's, five no.43's....
> ...



No wonder it's been feeling a bit busy on *The Slope *recently :lol: 

Paul


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## deirdre (8 Jul 2006)

Paul Chapman":2pl816x0 said:


> Alf":2pl816x0 said:
> 
> 
> > Jake Darvall":2pl816x0 said:
> ...



Yeah, and no wonder some of those planes are pricey. Some people are hoarding. 

(I only have one each of 45, 46, and Record 043 myself)


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## Anonymous (8 Jul 2006)

JesseM":1dfncvpl said:


> Well to be honest I haven't had a real chance to put them to the test. The latest try with the tongue cutter has shown it to last moderately. But I can tell it is dulling fast. Did you soften the file up first to shape it or just use a grinder on it?


No I didn't do any blacksmith stuff. I've read a fair bit about it, and have done some experimenting with ovens and the like, but I'm really a complete novice at it. 

I prefer just to rip into an old file with grinders, which I feel I can pull off safely and guickly enough. Must use a white wheel on a bench grinder...regular grey ones glaze over.....have fingers close to blade edge, so when your fingers burn you pull back (fingers will burn way before the edge looses temper generally).....

and use thin 1mm cutoff disks in a hand held powered grinder, with lots of little puddles of water sitting over the blank as you go...I usually do major cut offs with the disk before hitting the bench grinder....when the water evaporates off, I stop and cool the blank....using water is just a way to ensure I never blue the steel. Pretty primative technique, but it seems to work fine for experiments :lol: 

Old files seem well tempered already. Much harder than the blades that normally come with planes. Brittleness doesn't seem to be a problem because, unlike say a mortise chisel, the blade doesn't have to withstand shock. So the harder the better. Old files definetly best though. New ones don't seem to make the grade......

But, I'm still pretty new to blade creation. Plenty are still sceptical at my results I suspect. Another topic worth starting there I'd say. 



JesseM":1dfncvpl said:


> Since I had such a bad experience cutting dadoes with this thing I would like to try a skewed cutter to see if its any better. But first the rehab. :twisted:



Well, you better not damage those nickers then, if you want to do Dado work. You'll have to use both. They and the main blades corners must align parallel to the skates as well. Pretty much spot on. Its harder. You'll also have to try and get the nickers to cut at the right depth, which is difficult with those 3-point ones that come with 45's. Those spurs should be made to flare as well. They may sit too flush.

This thread on the stanley 78 has pictures discribing shimming the nicker out with paper. Its all about flaring again. That may help. 
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=25657

I like using nickers with grain as well, since they tend to cut you a crisper shoulder, but with planes that have this 3 point spur its hard to get them cutting at just the right depth. Their just not depth adjustable...... I just don't bother using them anymore. For dado work I prefer wooden dado's....(currently :lol: I'll probably change my mind next week) 

But goodluck to you. 

:shock: Alice ?....what do you mean I've got a problem :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":2vddk9sy said:


> This thread on the stanley 78 has pictures discribing shimming the nicker out with paper. Its all about flaring again. That may help.
> http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=25657



Another great link, Jake. I love your idea of using pins to support the end of the work when planing rebates - some really cool stuff when you get deep into the darkside 8) 8) 8) 

Paul


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## deirdre (8 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":37llv5oi said:


> JesseM":37llv5oi said:
> 
> 
> > :shock: Alice ?....what do you mean I've got a problem :wink:



Well, you know, it's about time I came out about my problem, though it is a tidge off-topic. I hope you'll forgive me.

I've recently decided I really like Lie-Nielson gadgets. Lots. I bought one of their saws at the end of April, then my first plane at the beginning of June, and, well, they're starting to accumulate.

What with their anniversary and all, I figure it's as good a time as any.


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## Alf (8 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":11lumrz3 said:


> :shock: Alice ?....what do you mean I've got a problem :wink:


Put it this way; if you don't have a problem (and naturally I'm not suggesting you do - let she who is without glass walls lob the first stone and all that  ), well if _you_ don't have a problem, then _I_ certainly don't. Deirdre, on the other hand, _does_ have a problem.

_*Not Enough*_. :wink: :lol: 

Spur cutters are tedious in the extreme. Stanley used to do single-edged ones that adjusted up and down, at least on some models, which actually aren't bad. I assume the cost of machining the serrations in the skate and the edge of the cutter made them uneconomic so they went the way of other good ideas.  I'm quite fond of the pizza wheel variety too, now adopted by LN for the #140 but found on the Woden rebate amongst others. The clover leaf type are pants; first thing you have to do is file away half the length of the leg you're going to use and then you've got limited sharpenings before it's too short. Stupid design.

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2006)

:shock: Blimey, deirdre, no wonder I thought *The Slope *was getting busy :shock: 

Paul


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## Alf (8 Jul 2006)

Hmm, I feel I need to clarify that "Not Enough" comment - I meant metal plough and combination planes. Evidentaly other areas are well under control... :lol:


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## deirdre (8 Jul 2006)

Alf":149robzb said:


> Deirdre, on the other hand, _does_ have a problem.
> 
> _*Not Enough*_. :wink: :lol:



Ha! Well, I've managed to accumulate 28 planes (in addition to my original 2) in the past 3-1/2 months. Give it time. 

I'm not sure I'll get more metal combination planes, though, unless some user-quality Miller patent planes land my way.

Somehow, having made one plane, I've gotten the idea to make a half set of hollows and rounds. It frightens me that I've actually got the wood all picked out and everything, as well as having the blades on order and all.



Alf":149robzb said:


> Spur cutters are tedious in the extreme. Stanley used to do single-edged ones that adjusted up and down, at least on some models, which actually aren't bad. I assume the cost of machining the serrations in the skate and the edge of the cutter made them uneconomic so they went the way of other good ideas.  I'm quite fond of the pizza wheel variety too, now adopted by LN for the #140 but found on the Woden rebate amongst others. The clover leaf type are pants; first thing you have to do is file away half the length of the leg you're going to use and then you've got limited sharpenings before it's too short. Stupid design.



When I first saw the clover leaf type, I thought they were clever, and I'm not sure why, because now it's utterly left my mind. I wonder if it were some clever patent-avoidance thing?

I rather like the rotary cutter ones like you do, but I always think of them as Olfa-style (probably because I have an Olfa rotary cutter for fabric that I now use for rough cutting of veneer slightly oversize).


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## MarcW (8 Jul 2006)

Jake,

Many thanks for the lots of ideas on combos. I rarely saw such neat handmade sliding dovertails and as many well made pics on neanderthaling in one thread. 8) 8) 8) 

Jesse,
Another thought on the flatness of the skates. Check the rods, they can be twisted and can lift one skate off a little bit, depends on how they're turned.
I had problems with the nickers at the beginning too. I thought the'd be ground and so I didn't remove them for grooving. The plane didn't slide but stagged and stopped alternately. Inspecting further the nickers were dull and dig in the wood by not even half a millimeter.

Regards, Marc


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## JesseM (9 Jul 2006)

MarcW":pxuh4cmo said:


> Jake,
> Another thought on the flatness of the skates. Check the rods, they can be twisted and can lift one skate off a little bit, depends on how they're turned.


Thanks Marc, I hadn't even thought of that. Yet another thing to check for.

Jake, I have used a dremel tool and cutup some hardened steel myself. I can't really bake steel in my current abode. Though I would like to. :twisted:


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## Anonymous (11 Jul 2006)

Thanks Paul and Mark..... I'm glad you like the links. 

Jesse, I did this on the weekend. Took some photos as I went. I was thinking they're a nice alternative to cutting your regular T&G joints. Its a spline joint. Saves on having to prepare that matching cutter to cut the tongue.


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d74/apricotripper/1g.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d74/apricotripper/2g.jpg

Its going to be a top for a metal drafting table I found and have cleaned up. Its just regular pine that used to be old bed slats. Bit of a scavanger I am. The splines is just hardwood ripped out of an old fence post I found on the table saw  . I'm trying to be clever by having contrasting colours uno. :lol: 

I did these with a record 44, but I don't see any reason why you can't do them with your Sargent, once you get it all tuned up. 

All you need do, is setup a plough blade, everything parallel and that blade sharp of course, and keep that fence referencing the same side of the table top for each board. uno, to ensure accuracy. And groove every board both sides. 

Plough plane cuts along an edge are very stable and quick, and shouldn't take long. The goal is to, have all the boards grooved to depth before that blade bluntens. At the very least ensure the grooves for any particular joint is complete before removing that blade, cause removing the blade risks inaccuracys that occur when resetting it...ie. it can be fiddly trying to get a blade sitting exactly as it was before.......if you know what I mean (? I'm not sure if I was clear enough) ....

You probably know already, but try and get the very ends of the joint tight, so it looks neat and gapless. Actually its probably a good idea to have the splines a little loose between the ends so they bind up well when you add glue etc.....as long as the ends look tight. 

Anyway, there you go.....an alternative  

[/url]


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## JesseM (11 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":faxvxulw said:


> Plough plane cuts along an edge are very stable and quick, and shouldn't take long. The goal is to, have all the boards grooved to depth before that blade bluntens. At the very least ensure the grooves for any particular joint is complete before removing that blade, cause removing the blade risks inaccuracys that occur when resetting it...ie. it can be fiddly trying to get a blade sitting exactly as it was before.......if you know what I mean (? I'm not sure if I was clear enough) ....
> Anyway, there you go.....an alternative


Yeah I know what you mean about the setting. I've been having a difficult time as it is getting the tongue centered. I will try the spline. It seems easy enough and I can practice my technique. Actually I know about these from some hardware floors I put in. I always referred to them as gender benders. Thanks!


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## Paul Chapman (11 Jul 2006)

And a spline (or loose tongue) joint like that is much better and stronger than T&G if the boards are to be glued together :wink: 

Paul


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## Clinton1 (28 Jul 2006)

You may like to download the Record 405 manual, which is good as it also has a section on "how to use" the plane.
http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/405.pdf

Sectin 12 points out the different way of using a combination plane, "commence at the end of the cut, and work backwards". 
Basically you creat a ramp, with the cut deepest at the end of the board that is furtherest away. Each cut is started slightly closer to you. 
this might be the reason that your plane is "biting at the end and not at the beginning". Its opposite to the way that you would use a bench plane.


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## Alf (28 Jul 2006)

Clinton1":2ak2z9sa said:


> "commence at the end of the cut, and work backwards".


An important point, easily overlooked if you're in the habit of skimming the instructions. Not that anyone round here does that... 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (30 Jul 2006)

I'm really not trying to step on anyones toes, whatsoever.....thats the last thing I want to do...It just its never made sense to me......I've heard that technique from many who sound like they know what their talking about......uno, planing back to front.....but I've found it to make no difference. :? I've tried that method.....but I still don't understand why its considered important. 

I just push my fenced plane like any other. ie. each pass covering the entire length of the board....and no problems ever. 

And it makes sense too doesn't it ? Why should it be different ?


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## Alf (30 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":2h1fuhi2 said:


> I just push my fenced plane like any other. ie. each pass covering the entire length of the board....and no problems ever.


There's always one... :roll: :lol: 

If it ain't broke for you, Jake, then no reason to fix it. The majority of us mere mortals find it does though. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (30 Jul 2006)

Jake Darvall":3ventmxg said:


> ...I just push my fenced plane like any other. ie. each pass covering the entire length of the board....and no problems ever.
> 
> And it makes sense too doesn't it ? Why should it be different ?


Hi Jake,

Like Alf said, whatever works. For myself, I find if the plow is set for a rank cut, it is easier to begin at the far end and work to the near end. Same goes with a profiled plane. This is especially true with woods such as Oak and Ash, Cherry and Poplar.

If the wood is really hard and the planes are set for a lighter cut, I typically do start at the near end. 

Take care, Mike


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## MarcW (30 Jul 2006)

Just a thought,

Because Jake, you're the man of the big fences :mrgreen: that allow to have steady pressure and guidance to the work piece, you don't need to begin at the far end. I think beginning there gives a sort of fence or guidance to a normal fenced plane. Think of the wobbling of a #45 when planing the first shavings and later on when you're in the groove. This sideway movement disappears with the depth of the groove. Disposing of a fence a little bit longer so it makes contact before the skates actually touch the work piece, makes straight grooves like rails.

Ok, that's my 2c, Marc


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## bugbear (31 Jul 2006)

Alf":38x6pz9m said:


> Stanley used to do single-edged ones that adjusted up and down, at least on some models, which actually aren't bad. I assume the cost of machining the serrations in the skate and the edge of the cutter made them uneconomic so they went the way of other good ideas.



They came back in the "dog dung for a handle" 13-050, and the "horrible handle" Record #045c. (both numbers from memory)

i.e. the much derided latest combo planes that existed.

BugBear


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## Alf (31 Jul 2006)

Did they really? Well, well, might have to get me one of them after all... (like I wasn't already looking for cheap examples of same :-$ 8-[ )

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (31 Jul 2006)

bugbear":13vzxg8a said:


> They came back in the "dog **** for a handle" 13-050, and the "horrible handle" Record #045c. (both numbers from memory)



Yurgle! I didn't know this forum had a profanity filter.

BugBear


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## Alf (31 Jul 2006)

bugbear":2f441nje said:


> bugbear":2f441nje said:
> 
> 
> > They came back in the "dog **** for a handle" 13-050, and the "horrible handle" Record #045c. (both numbers from memory)
> ...


Ooo, neither did I. Thought you must have read the forum rules.

Silly me. :wink: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (1 Aug 2006)

MarcW":jbyl57lz said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Because Jake, you're the man of the big fences :mrgreen: that allow to have steady pressure and guidance to the work piece, you don't need to begin at the far end. I think beginning there gives a sort of fence or guidance to a normal fenced plane. Think of the wobbling of a #45 when planing the first shavings and later on when you're in the groove. This sideway movement disappears with the depth of the groove. Disposing of a fence a little bit longer so it makes contact before the skates actually touch the work piece, makes straight grooves like rails.
> 
> Ok, that's my 2c, Marc



I think your right Marc.....spose its nice to know why.

yep......when starting near the end, all of the fence and sole (skate whatever) is on the board than starting right at the beginning edge, where only the nose parts are on........yeh, so it does make sense  (don't listen to me) .

And a good confortable starts important....so that your cruising comfortably when you finally do get the groove or whatever approaching the start of the board, where your starting at the beginning of the board a lot....

AAAAGH forget it ! ....I'm confusing myself. I shouldn't be raving about nothing anyway  ....who cares how its done, as long as it works eh. 

ps. What does that 'Razz' emoticon mean ?.....when do I use that ?....do I put that in when I'm teasing someone ? poking fun sort of thing ?


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## Paul Chapman (1 Aug 2006)

Jake Darvall":8xyg3c2z said:


> MarcW":8xyg3c2z said:
> 
> 
> > Just a thought,
> ...



I agree, Marc might be on to something. On some of my tools (routers, planes, hand-held circular saw) when making wooden faces for the fences, I've often made two sets, one deep and one shallow. Whenever possible, I use the deep ones because it significantly increases the stability of the whole set up. Not tried it yet with my multiplanes, but I need to make a new wooden face for the fence of my #405 so I will make a deeper and longer one and see what it's like. Thanks for the tip, Marc :wink: 

Paul


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## MarcW (2 Aug 2006)

> ...AAAAGH forget it ! ....I'm confusing myself. I shouldn't be raving about nothing anyway  ....who cares how its done, as long as it works eh.
> 
> ps. What does that 'Razz' emoticon mean ?.....when do I use that ?....do I put that in when I'm teasing someone ? poking fun sort of thing ?



Yes Jake,

As long as it works. Just sometimes it's kind a fun to find out why it doesn't. Am I a little warped at this point?  

This thought came to me, because I normally reach instinctively first for the #45 whenever possible before I go for a wooden similar plane. Despite the tedious process of setting up this excellent idea of this big fence makes for a proper groove. \/ 

The  emoticon, don't know, but would be glad too to understand its use. Maybe someone could enlighten us here. :?: This way I'd follow 51% of what's written here.  :lol:

Regards,

Marc

p.s.: I'm looking for a small combo since I read your posts in the australian forum. Any advice for a specific model? I thought of a Record #43.


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## Alf (2 Aug 2006)

As far as  goes, wind your sense of humour down to about the level of a four year old and you'll probably know when to use it. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Clinton1 (3 Aug 2006)

with those big fences you've got to be careful you don't split your pants getting over them!  

How's that? :roll:


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## Anonymous (4 Aug 2006)

Clinton1":1ej9tyjn said:


> with those big fences you've got to be careful you don't split your pants getting over them!
> 
> How's that? :roll:



:lol: Not bad ! :lol: :shock: I mean, How Imature Clinton !  

What you reakon Alice ? ..... are we using this thing ->  ....correctly ?  <- I'm not really embarrised. Just pretending.


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## Alf (4 Aug 2006)

Somethings tells me that rather than a serious answer, I should just go 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (6 Aug 2006)

Alf":114g9suq said:


> Somethings tells me that rather than a serious answer, I should just go
> 
> Cheers, Alf



 ,,,, I can be a bit of a wally sometimes, Alf. Sorry.


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## Alf (6 Aug 2006)

Let she who is without wally moments cast the first stone, Jake.  :lol:


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