# MFT - Why?



## deema (1 Jul 2022)

I know, I know, it’s calling into question what many consider the holly grail of wood working jigs. But what’s the point of a MFT? 
Let me put this into context, I’ve had one, I made one for my RAS, and thought it would be very useful for clamping. I also knew I could swing the arm out of the way and use it for all the other uses that are claimed for it. Now, being a engineer at heart, I placed a black dot next to each hole every time I used one…….guess how many I used? 3

I admire Peter for producing the 10 minute workshop videos, I think that the amount and time and effort he has put into what are very well thought out segments to be a real credit to him. I think I’ve watched all of them up to the point he retired from earning a living doing cabinetry. Now, I may be wrong, but I don’t think he actually really used any of the features of his MFT apart from mounting the lift up track on it……he used a couple, of holes for clamping stuff whilst he dominos off the edge, but that’s it. 
Again, I’ve watched a few other uTube ‘real users’, not those who are trying to sell the latest wizzy gadget or subscriptio, and again, most only set it up for cross costs on one segment of the table. The rest of the holes appear to remain unused. Other people I’ve come across who have them, again seem to use it primarily for cross cutting…..in one place to preserve the top. Ie a straight edge and a 90 degree so, circa 4 holes.

Id like to ask, what’s everyone else’s perspective, and when you really think about it, do you actually use all the holes on the surface, or just a couple?


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## Spectric (1 Jul 2022)

I have been here and asked the very same question, why do I want a lot of holes in my workbench so things can just fall through. I spent a lot of time looking into this and thinking about what it could do for me and always drew a blank. The fact festool was involved made me very suspicous because maybe it was just something that was part of their approach to woodworking and not mine. Some of my first thoughts were, people have been woodworking for centuries and without an MFT, perhaps with power tools it has a use and then I could see how it helps people working only in sheet goods to cut repetative pieces but what about me, how would it help me which I could not fathom out. The answer came whilst watching a video about some bench build where they were using dog holes and microjig dovetail slots, now you have a solution that both aligns and clamps. I still did not want holes in my bench, just seems like putting holes in a bucket and would let things escape so I thought of a top that just sits on my bench. I finally had to at least try things out to experience this craze of 20mm holes and so made a board with 20mm holes and the dovetail slots in between. It could have ended up as just an expensive experience with no benefits to myself but although not an MFT convert, I can say my approach with boards that sit on the workbence has been a success made possible by microjig. I use the dogs for alignment and location whilst the microjig clamps do the clamping and it has been a useful addition to my working methods.

I will say that I use a tracksaw and Benchdogs square for cutting sheet goods so not any MFT variant and you don't need a board full of holes because with them around the edges and a row through the middle you can just use a piece of wood to provide a straight working edge so maybe having the full number of holes is a just in case approach. With the Parf system you will end up with a board of 3mm holes anyway. I have found having extra holes spaced at 32mm can provide extra suport for working on corner joints.


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## TRITON (1 Jul 2022)

Well theyre very good for clamping something mid-bench, for routing and the like.

I think something which would be handier, would be t track inset into the bench. Which allow for infinite adjustment, so you can place a component on, use a stop to stop it moving, parf holes in a hold down setting to secure it and then the t track would allow the placement of a guide rail or guide bar to router a dado into.
What I mean is is with parf holes, theyre set a set distance apart. So you are repeating the same placement spot for whatever sized component, and guide rail. but are limited to only allowing movement at whatever the holes are centered at.

I think a series of parf holes, and T track would give you better options and infinite angles to lay a guide rail against. 

Think I'll draw something, work some stuff out.


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## deema (1 Jul 2022)

@TRITON what you suggest, to me sounds like a really good solution.

I took the MFT top off, and reverted to just a solid top that I decided I would drill any holes I needed. I haven’t drilled any yet, instead I screw jigs to it as needed. But a T track slot would be very useful.


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## Doug71 (1 Jul 2022)

I have an MFT style bench that is used for power tool work and is also my assembly bench, it's about 2.1m long x 1.1m wide. 

One of the main reasons I built it was for cutting up sheet material with my tracksaw, it worked well for this but I now own a sliding panel saw which does the job much better so the MFT doesn't get used as a cutting table much now.

I still wouldn't be without it, I love all the clamping options it gives me and I often use dogs to help hold frames square while working on them.

I managed without one for 30 years but I would miss it now as it has become part of how I work.


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## Spectric (1 Jul 2022)

The big issue with T track is that it is not so easy to get it to cross over in both the vertical and horizontal directions, with the microjig dovetail slots you end up with a matrix in both directions which gives total flexability. Take a look at these and you will see what I mean.


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## TRITON (1 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> The big issue with T track is that it is not so easy to get it to cross over in both the vertical and horizontal directions, with the microjig dovetail slots you end up with a matrix in both directions which gives total flexibility. Take a look at these and you will see what I mean.


You may not have to have them cross. Its for aligning the guide rail for saw or router. The parf dog aligns the board, the t track which would extend across it can be aligned in parallel, or at any other angle. I dont think we need it to do every job with every option, just change the parameters of the dog system to include infinite angles but also be moved beyond the set distances of the parf centered holes.


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## Jake (1 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> The big issue with T track is that it is not so easy to get it to cross over in both the vertical and horizontal directions, with the microjig dovetail slots you end up with a matrix in both directions which gives total flexability. Take a look at these and you will see what I mean.



That looks really flimsy.


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## Nic Rhodes (2 Jul 2022)

They work well in practice.


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## Rozza (2 Jul 2022)

deema said:


> I know, I know, it’s calling into question what many consider the holly grail of wood working jigs. But what’s the point of a MFT?



The point for me, is that the MFT table, out of the box, just worked. No dicking about with t-tracks being in the wrong place, needing different clamps, extending guides and the like. With a set of dogs, Festool quick release clamps, I have found nothing that it does not allow me to quickly and simply and accurately. As Mr Parfit has demonstrated many times

I would wholeheartedly recommend to anyone who asked. Definitely one of my best purchases ever. Each to your own!


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## johna.clements (2 Jul 2022)

Many things including tools are not used to their full potential. Often different people use different features. I don't think that means that there is anything wrong with the tool.

I have not used a MFT yet nut what surprises me is why they are not used more to cut angles. 45 degree is obvious but if the guide rail/track is fixed to dogs in different columns and the fence or dogs are in different rows there would be a number of repeatable angles that could be cut.


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## Rozza (2 Jul 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Many things including tools are not used to their full potential. Often different people use different features. I don't think that means that there is anything wrong with the tool.
> 
> I have not used a MFT yet nut what surprises me is why they are not used more to cut angles. 45 degree is obvious but if the guide rail/track is fixed to dogs in different columns and the fence or dogs are in different rows there would be a number of repeatable angles that could be cut.



Yep, and with the use of folding wedges those angles are infinite. There’s always an adjustable mitre of course!

If you have the table rather than a top on a bench, the mitre guide for the MFT works very well


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2022)

Jake said:


> That looks really flimsy.


One of the issues with T track is that it is easy to pull it out of it's slot unless the board is thick enough so that you can use threaded fasteners rather than woodscrews. I have been using the microjig slots for over a year and with no issues, the system is just so easy to knock up fences and work supports as well as those odd jigs to get you out of a tight spot.


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## petermillard (2 Jul 2022)

deema said:


> I know, I know, it’s calling into question what many consider the holly grail of wood working jigs. But what’s the point of a MFT?
> Let me put this into context, I’ve had one, I made one for my RAS, and thought it would be very useful for clamping. I also knew I could swing the arm out of the way and use it for all the other uses that are claimed for it. Now, being a engineer at heart, I placed a black dot next to each hole every time I used one…….guess how many I used? 3
> 
> I admire Peter for producing the 10 minute workshop videos, I think that the amount and time and effort he has put into what are very well thought out segments to be a real credit to him. I think I’ve watched all of them up to the point he retired from earning a living doing cabinetry. Now, I may be wrong, but I don’t think he actually really used any of the features of his MFT apart from mounting the lift up track on it……he used a couple, of holes for clamping stuff whilst he dominos off the edge, but that’s it.
> ...


Thanks. Now at the risk of stating the obvious, not every part of the making process gets shown in a video, and I can assure you that I’ve used most of the holes on the MFT at some point. No, not all of them, but I wouldn’t personally do a partial grid layout, as I could virtually guarantee that the place where I wanted to put a clamp was the place where there wasn’t a hole! 

The hinged rail is very useful as a straightedge - bear eg a domino against the back edge and a flagstop on the fence for accurate mid-panel mortices, for example. But they’re not for everyone, and I’m pretty sure I’ve never suggested they’re some kind of hold grail product; on balance I’d rather have one than not, but if you don’t find them useful, don’t use them.


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## bertterbo (2 Jul 2022)

Jake said:


> That looks really flimsy.



Do you mean the plastic parts or the thin edges of the wooden dovetail itself?

If it's the latter, it reallys quite adequate. If you think about it, the timber isn't really under any kind of stress on it's thin components. It's only really compression. So unless your plywood has voids in it, it works perfectly fine.


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## petermillard (2 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> One of the issues with T track is that it is easy to pull it out of it's slot unless the board is thick enough so that you can use threaded fasteners rather than woodscrews. I have been sing the microjig slots for over a year and with no issues, the system is just so easy to knock up fences and work supports as well as those odd jigs to get you out of a tight spot.


I saw that demonstrated in the Matchfit promotional video Roy, and wondered to myself if anyone had ever done that in real life? Most of the time I’m clamping flat onto a surface, so the chances of pulling out retaining screws are pretty modest. 





In another spectacular piece of timing, I’ve just ‘matchfitted’ (or is it ‘microjigged’ my workshop MFT to try them out. Have to be honest I’m on the fence about the system, but I’m prepare to give it a try.


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2022)

petermillard said:


> but I wouldn’t personally do a partial grid layout, as I could virtually guarantee that the place where I wanted to put a clamp was the place where there wasn’t a hole!


Another bonus with the microjig dovetail slots, you have no problems with clamping but sods law will always deliver a synario where you may need a dog to restrain or locate something, but bridging dogs with something often gets you out of the hole.


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## bertterbo (2 Jul 2022)

I made my MFT table by buying one of the CNCed tops and then constructing a base for it. My plans for it were to use it with a tracksaw and bench dogs for making crosscuts. But to be honest, I never got on with it. The lack of repeatability and there almost never being a hole where I needed one soon put me off. I think the way to go is a fence with stop and a flip down rail like Peter uses. Maybe one day I'll try it, but where my bench is currently located, it wouldn't work.

Having said that, I use the holes for clamping ALL the time. The clamps from Axminster are super useful! 








Axminster Trade Clamps Screw Thread Hold Down Clamp


The screw thread hold down clamp fits perfectly into any 20mm bench dog hole. It makes an ideal addition to the UJK Multifunction workbenches and the Festool MFT/3 Multifunction table. You can use it on a Parf Guide system cutting table and any UJK...




www.axminstertools.com





I certainly wouldn't want an MFT style top as my only bench, but if you have the room, having it as a dedicated sheet material cutting station makes a lot of sense in my mind.


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2022)

@petermillard what I find useful is that you are not restrained by any angle and they come in handy for not only workbench tops in conjunction with dogs but also for making a high fence for the mitre saw or router table or there are many jigs that can be knocked up, just a piece of MDF and some slots and you have a jig for a given purpose. It is so easy to run the slots that I now make most jigs adjustable rather than a fixed setup for a specific task.


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2022)

bertterbo said:


> The clamps from Axminster are super useful!


But don't they have a fixing underneath which can be a problem with access.


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## petermillard (2 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> @petermillard what I find useful is that you are not restrained by any angle and they come in handy for not only workbench tops in conjunction with dogs but also for making a high fence for the mitre saw or router table or there are many jigs that can be knocked up, just a piece of MDF and some slots and you have a jig for a given purpose. It is so easy to run the slots that I now make most jigs adjustable rather than a fixed setup for a specific task.


Yes, indeed; but are they any better than eg a routed t-slot?


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## johna.clements (2 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> But don't they have a fixing underneath which can be a problem with access.


They just hook under the MDF. As long as you have about 40mm ish clear vertically under the table you can insert down through the dog hole then turn to the horizontal. Then you need enough horizontal clearance under the MFT the direction you want the clamp to operate. So if you were to support the MDF those camps could only be used pointing away or parallel to the support.

Added

I am talking about the guide rail type clamps where they are small enough. If they are too big they will not be able to turn in a 20mm dia 18mm thick material.


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2022)

petermillard said:


> Yes, indeed; but are they any better than eg a routed t-slot?


good question, an even better one for microjig! Maybe it is in the profile, with a T slot you have corners and we know things fracture at corners wheras a dovetail has no corners as such plus the upward force has more area to resist, the T slot only has the material left above the lower slot. Someone needs to make a video comparison .


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## johna.clements (2 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> good question, an even better one for microjig! Maybe it is in the profile, with a T slot you have corners and we know things fracture at corners wheras a dovetail has no corners as such plus the upward force has more area to resist, the T slot only has the material left above the lower slot. Someone needs to make a video comparison .



Last time I looked dovetails have corners in them!.

I doubt that aluminum t track would fail at the corners, maybe 80N/mm2 in tension and 50N/mm2 plus in shear depending on grade. Ply has a shear strength up to about 8N/mm2. Wood glue is about 2N/mm2.

A clamp with 60mm running in a routed slot will be trying to shear off the ply, mdf etc on the sides of the slot. 
A clamp in T track will be trying to pull out the fixings plus any glue.

A routed slot on a thin sheet is likely to be stronger than very short screws. A t track screwed or bolted down to a thicker sheet will very likely be stronger.


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## Spectric (2 Jul 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Last time I looked dovetails have corners in them!.


But not 90°, aluminium T track may not fail but a T slot routed into MDF has to be weaker because there is less material remaining to resist the pulling force compared to a dovetail.


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## bertterbo (2 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> But don't they have a fixing underneath which can be a problem with access.


I very rarely use the locking screw.


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## Jake (2 Jul 2022)

bertterbo said:


> Do you mean the plastic parts or the thin edges of the wooden dovetail itself?
> 
> If it's the latter, it reallys quite adequate. If you think about it, the timber isn't really under any kind of stress on it's thin components. It's only really compression. So unless your plywood has voids in it, it works perfectly fine.


Both. Plus what must be all the pfaff with detritus in the channels - I'm too messy.


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## johna.clements (3 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> But not 90°, aluminium T track may not fail but a T slot routed into MDF has to be weaker because there is less material remaining to resist the pulling force compared to a dovetail.



A routed dovetail to fit a clamp will be the same profile as a routed dovetail to fit a track in which a clamp is fitted. the dovetail track will have more material above it resisting pull out since it is slightly bigger because you have to allow for the wall thickness of the dovetail track. The dovetail track will also act like a continuous beam and spread the load along the length of the track, how far depending how stiff the track is. A dovetail with no track will only spread the load over the length of the clamp so will fail sooner.


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## TRITON (3 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> One of the issues with T track is that it is easy to pull it out of it's slot unless the board is thick enough so that you can use threaded fasteners rather than woodscrews. I have been using the microjig slots for over a year and with no issues, the system is just so easy to knock up fences and work supports as well as those odd jigs to get you out of a tight spot.


I'm guessing that youre speaking hypothetically and you've never actually had this happen. Seems like an argument to nowhere.


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## Spectric (3 Jul 2022)

I have had a T rack pull out of its channel, what you must ensure is the channel is flush with the surface otherwise the pulling force will make it flush against your workpiece, ie take up the clearance. There is a similar issue with dovetail slots, you have to pull against the workpiece otherwise you will pull the clamp out of the dovetail slot.


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## johna.clements (3 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> I have had a T rack pull out of its channel, what you must ensure is the channel is flush with the surface otherwise the pulling force will make it flush against your workpiece, ie take up the clearance. There is a similar issue with dovetail slots, you have to pull against the workpiece otherwise you will pull the clamp out of the dovetail slot.



Dovetail slots with no track have the advantage where as you note you can arrange your work so you can clamp against it. They are also cheaper and can be installed quickly.

If the work piece is not above the track or dovetail and the fasteners have sufficient capacity (as you note maybe threaded fasteners) then square or rectangular track would have a higher holding capacity rather than just a clamping capacity.


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## TRITON (3 Jul 2022)

T track is held in with multiple fasteners, plus the material itself is rigid. For something to simply pull out, it would take considerable force to do so to overcome all the fasteners.

Obviously this type of tthing is not a new idea(It just occurred to me at the time) to combine T track and bench dog holes and can be seen here on the UJK site.







Many companies do hold downs that run in T track, so I wonder what level of force would be needed to pull the track out its slot, overcoming the fasteners  Certainly not enough from a simple hold down. You would need considerably more than that, and then given its rigidity and its multiple fixing points i wonder what would give first, given the pull force you must be be talking about, what would give first, the track itself or whether the T slot bolt would rip through the thin edges of the alloy..

I wonder is in this seemingly hypothetical reasoning, if posters are taking into account the use for T track in an MFT type bench. where the use of the track is to accommodate workstops, to hold the guide rail or component at different angles, and not as some sort of clamping area to put hundreds of kg of downward force as in a glue up type scenario as was the type of thing myself and Deema were referring to it for.


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## Distinterior (3 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> I wonder is in this seemingly hypothetical reasoning, if posters are taking into account the use for T track in an MFT type bench. where the use of the track is to accommodate workstops, to hold the guide rail or component at different angles, and not as some sort of clamping area to put hundreds of kg of downward force as in a glue up type scenario as was the type of thing myself and Deema were referring to it for.


I was wondering the same thing...!!
If I was of a mind to want to excert that kind of pressure or force on T track, I'm sure i would find a stronger, better way of holding the workpiece. 
The MFT / T track scenario does work well on small components, sheet materials etc, but if I wanted to hand plane a large section of material, I would likely find a better way of holding the timber.


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## johna.clements (3 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> T track is held in with multiple fasteners, plus the material itself is rigid. For something to simply pull out, it would take considerable force to do so to overcome all the fasteners.
> 
> Obviously this type of tthing is not a new idea(It just occurred to me at the time) to combine T track and bench dog holes and can be seen here on the UJK site.
> 
> ...



The t track will act structurally as a continuous beam. But it is not very rigid so only a few screws either side of the clamp will be fully engaged because the track will deflect. If a flat plate was attached on the under side of a MFT with set screws from the track to the plate to clamp the track and plate together you would likely get a a deeper beam which would be much stiffer. The track would then have much lower delflection and you would have to shear the MFT eitherside of the track to pull it out.


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## bertterbo (3 Jul 2022)

With T-Track. You really want to be using a clamp like this, as then you're not pulling the track out of the channel. The force is compressing the pieces, rather than pulling up on the track (same with the dovetail clamps)


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## Sideways (3 Jul 2022)

Utterly unconvinced of the T track argument.
The pitiful little screws that are all you can usually fit to hold it down without obstructing the track are totally inadequate to resist clamping forces and if you can't pull on them what's the point.

The original festool method of lever clamp poked through a hole is simple and strong.

If you do need to use T track for clamping, then spend a few quid on dovetail T track and make sure it's a good tight fit in the slot. This had to be hammered in. 

Just my opinion ...


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## bertterbo (3 Jul 2022)

You can also use epoxy to hold it in. Which will be pretty strong.

In regard to the screws, I always use overly long ones, then grind the bit sticking out. This way you get more thread into for example 18mm ply.


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## johna.clements (3 Jul 2022)

Sideways said:


> Utterly unconvinced of the T track argument.
> The pitiful little screws that are all you can usually fit to hold it down without obstructing the track are totally inadequate to resist clamping forces and if you can't pull on them what's the point.
> 
> 
> ...



why not counter sink the channel so you can use longer screws or use a counter sunk set screw. Screwfix sell 3mm X 30mm screws. You can buy counter sunk M3 x 30mm machine screws, M4 x 50mm


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## Spectric (3 Jul 2022)

@Sideways has picked up on those little screws, if you use 22mm MDF then you will only have 12 or 14 mm in which to screw the fasteners and @bertterbo s drawing illustrates the issue with both the T track & dovetails if you dont apply the forces in the right direction and also note that T track comes in straight or tapered external profile but either way it can move. Solution is to fasten right through with penny washers and nuts on the back so then it cannot move or back it with enough wood so you can use longer screws. I will still say the dovetail slots are cheaper because the one cutter can produce as many slots as you want and they are so flexable but like anything need to be used in the right way.


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## johna.clements (3 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> @Sideways has picked up on those little screws, if you use 22mm MDF then you will only have 12 or 14 mm in which to screw the fasteners and @bertterbo s drawing illustrates the issue with both the T track & dovetails if you dont apply the forces in the right direction and also note that T track comes in straight or tapered external profile but either way it can move. Solution is to fasten right through with penny washers and nuts on the back so then it cannot move or back it with enough wood so you can use longer screws. I will still say the dovetail slots are cheaper because the one cutter can produce as many slots as you want and they are so flexable but like anything need to be used in the right way.



Thanks for confirming what I have stated.


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## johna.clements (3 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> View attachment 138855
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe UJK and others should do some pull out tests with different materials and fixings.

It would be interesting to know what the track could take, obviously a lot less than the clamp you show could give.


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