# Woodrat!



## Adam (5 Feb 2004)

Not much to say really, just thought I'd say my best "tool" has to be my woodrat. And see where the conversation goes.

With a title like that, all the 'non-ratters can't get 'ratty' <groan> about us ruining their threads!

Favourite thing about the 'rat, is the ability to cut not just variable spaced dovetails, but variable width dovetails - can any jig do that?

As I sawed through my dovetail box, and after handplaning, pushed the two halves together and all the dovetails were now the same width, after the saw cut and planing :idea: , was a pleasing moment.

Adam


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## Adam (6 Feb 2004)

http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/LittleRa ... index.html


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## Aragorn (6 Feb 2004)

Non-ratter here!
I use the Leigh jig for dovetails. Also does variable width and spacing. I often have trouble with tearout even when I back up my workpiece. Anyone else have this problem?


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## Adam (6 Feb 2004)

Ahh, the woodrat allows climb cutting, - which I would expect you could do with a Leigh couldn't you? When I cut the 'tails, on the 'Rat I hop the router over the top of the wood, lower to cutting height, take a small cut on the rear of the workpiece, to stop breakout, then, hop the router back over the workpiece and take a cut straight through from the front. 
It's an extra process, but once you get fast at it, it only takes a few seconds. It was Mike Humphreys that suggested this was the best technique for 'rats, and I have followed it ever since.

Actually thinking about it, I don't think a jig would allow that - could you clamp a sacrificial piece on the back - between the wood and the front surface of the jig?


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## Aragorn (6 Feb 2004)

That sounds like a good idea. I think I can do it on the Leigh - there is enough space behind the workpiece to drop the router in. I'll give it a go next time I'm dovetailing.
Thanks!


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## johnelliott (6 Feb 2004)

One question about the Woodrat I neverhear asked or answered- is it quick?
John


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## Adam (6 Feb 2004)

Depends what you are doing, is certainly slower I imagine, than a jig dedicated to a specific task, but if you have a limited workshop like me, if you added in the time to pack away the jig each time, and then bring it out and set it up, I would think it balances out. Also, I find the woodrat very quick for swopping different bits of stock in and out, and it also can cut multiple pieces at once, so (although I haven't done this) theoretically at least, you can cut all teh dovetails in a batch of drawer sides for example, in one go. Now that really would speed it up!

I find it fantastically quick, to just lock in stock and square it up, and for cutting rebates against a pencil line it's easy. Although the up and over movement I mentioned in my post above adds a few seconds, once you get a system, it gets really fast, it helps perhaps that I use a pistol grip router.

So it's a yes and no!

Adam


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## Newbie_Neil (6 Feb 2004)

Hi Adam

One of the big problems for the Rat is that people, like myself, seem not to want to make the investment in a Rat once they have started to buy jigs such as the Trend/Leigh etc.

In recent postings I have taken to mentioning that the Rat should be considered up-front in the "newbies" tool/jig buying splurge!!!

To help bring it more to the attention of people, and to provide a specific area for Ratters, is it worth dedicating a forum specifically to the Rat?

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (6 Feb 2004)

Behold!

Woodrat Forum

But of course it's no fun there 'cos there are no jig owners to annoy... :wink: 

Neil, I think your point about people getting on the jig train and finding it hard to get off is a good one. There's another good reason to recommend the 'Rat to newbies; they have no preconceived ideas about how such-and-such a task is performed. The Woodrat really does ask you to approach everything from a fresh angle, and that can be hard if you're used to going with the received wisdom on how to do various tasks. One more difficulty facing someone switching from a jig to the 'Rat. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Newbie_Neil (6 Feb 2004)

Hi Alf



Alf":1ih2mu31 said:


> Behold! But of course it's no fun there 'cos there are no jig owners to annoy... :wink:



I genuinely believe that if you want to interest people then you have to place it in front of them and a dedicated forum is the way ahead. I take your point about the US forum but I was thinking of promoting this site.



Alf":1ih2mu31 said:


> Neil, I think your point about people getting on the jig train and finding it hard to get off is a good one. There's another good reason to recommend the 'Rat to newbies; they have no preconceived ideas about how such-and-such a task is performed. The Woodrat really does ask you to approach everything from a fresh angle, and that can be hard if you're used to going with the received wisdom on how to do various tasks. One more difficulty facing someone switching from a jig to the 'Rat. Cheers, Alf



I assume people will take up woodworking primarily as a result of watching of watching NYW and GBW. Sorry to disagree about preconceived ideas, but if they have been watching Dave then they will want the Trend M&T jig and Trend Dovetail centre. With Norm, they will want a dado head cutter. :roll: :roll: 

So, you are immediately starting from a disadvantage even if they haven't bought any jigs. I have always tried to play devil's advocate when it comes to the Rat threads. I believe that it has been very useful, and indeed constructive, to do some real comparisons.

I thought Adam would have joined in by now. :wink: 

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (6 Feb 2004)

It's not a US forum, the yanks just make the most noise.  

Oh gawd. The ruddy goggle box strikes again... :roll: I'd forgotten about Norm and his clones. Of course nobody ever took up woodworking before it was shown on satellite telly, and the interest in hand tools shown on this forum is a direct result of Norm and his notorious unrelenting use of a chisel... :wink: But you're right, if the 'Rat was on the telly we'd be having totally different threads about it. Mainly getting bored with "How do I do a dado on the Woodrat?" questions. :evil: However, I contest that there's a world of difference between _watching_ someone use a jig and _using_ a jig yourself. Watching one jig in use can just as easily be eradicated from your mind by watching another. _Using_ a jig and then switching to something else is a lot tougher. 

Cheers, Alf


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## gidon (6 Feb 2004)

Newbie_Neil":3053wm9x said:


> I assume people will take up woodworking primarily as a result of watching of watching NYW and GBW.



Would be an interesting poll - but I'm not sure this is the case. A lot of people don't have satellite for one. And these progs haven't been on for long. So unless everyone has only taken up woodworking in the last couple of years I'm sure many other factors have brought us to this fine hobby. I for one came into it from a passion acquired at nursery school! And then attending a woodworking class some years ago to try and learn some skills that didn't involve using air-filled plastic hammers!

Which brings me nicely to the Woodrat. I'm still cautious about recommending a jig which supposedly does everything to people new to woodworking. Shouldn't these folk be learning to do these joints by hand? If you do a woodworking evening class, I doubt they will pull out a jig for dovetails, a jig for M&T's etc (well not in my case). For small pieces doing a few joints by hand isn't _so_ bad. A couple of comments on this site have suggested that doing a dovetail by hand is some sort of holy grail. The joint may not be perfect and may need some wood dust / pva filler! But it's very satisfying.

Perhaps there would be more hand tool use - not if Norm used them more - but if Woodrat's weren't about .

Oh and Adam - there's plenty of 'Ratters over at UK Woodworking(!)

Time to hide for cover.

Cheers

Gidon


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## Alf (6 Feb 2004)

gidon":qdgdkfu4 said:


> Perhaps there would be more hand tool use - not if Norm used them more - but if Woodrat's weren't about .


To my shame, that's perfectly true in my case  I'd probably have knuckled down by now and learnt to do some dovetailing that was viewable in more than just a dim light if it wasn't for the 'Rat. Oh foul rodent, you know not what you do...  

Actually that isn't a bad idea for a poll. D'you want to set that one going, Gidon? Or are you crawling back under the wire to "the other side"? :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Adam (6 Feb 2004)

A few thoughts, 



> To help bring it more to the attention of people, and to provide a specific area for Ratters, is it worth dedicating a forum specifically to the Rat?
> 
> I would be interested in your thoughts.



Neil, there is a woodrat forum, dedicated to 'ratters, of which both me and ALF are members. It's is part of the www.woodrat.com website. Previously it was hosted on msn_groups or yahoo_groups, most recently it was on communityzero. I don't consider this to be a "US" forum, just an international forum.

If you have a really specific Woodrat questions that'd be the place to start - or to point people to. I think on balance, my feeling is that this does not justify a forum on this website - after all neither tablesaws nor other equipment gets one. Also I like to read topics that drift away and into new directions.



> I assume people will take up woodworking primarily as a result of watching of watching NYW and GBW.



Nope, not me, I have always been interested in WW since school. Never even heard, nor seen on TV a dado cutter till I heard everyone talking about it. 

Gidon, I still post on both forums! :lol: 



> If you do a woodworking evening class, I doubt they will pull out a jig for dovetails, a jig for M&T's etc (well not in my case). For small pieces doing a few joints by hand isn't so bad. A couple of comments on this site have suggested that doing a dovetail by hand is some sort of holy grail. The joint may not be perfect and may need some wood dust / pva filler! But it's very satisfying.



I have done exactly this, hand cut dovetails on my evening class. They look very good, 8) however, I'm very slow, and for us who have weekends and evenings only, I still prefer to use the 'rat.



> Which brings me nicely to the Woodrat. I'm still cautious about recommending a jig which supposedly does everything to people new to woodworking



Although I bought mine as a complete beginner, without any workshop, or even a workbench, I used to clamp it to a workmate, in the back garden on the lawn. I built a table or two and the garden gate!



> There's another good reason to recommend the 'Rat to newbies; they have no preconceived ideas about how such-and-such a task is performed. The Woodrat really does ask you to approach everything from a fresh angle, and that can be hard if you're used to going with the received wisdom on how to do various tasks.



Basically, as a complete beginner, I decided to go out and find a way to achieve dovetails, I read the magazines, saw Godfreys awful demo, watched the CD, looked at some jigs, and bought a woodrat. I definately had no preconceived ideas on this subject, I just did some research. It may even have been Jester who answered my very _first _question I think :roll: 

Adam


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## Alf (6 Feb 2004)

Adam":b80npin9 said:


> Basically, as a complete beginner, I decided to go out and find a way to achieve dovetails, I read the magazines, saw Godfreys awful demo, watched the CD, looked at some jigs, and bought a woodrat. I definately had no preconceived ideas on this subject, I just did some research.


That's exactly what I did. The Woodrat was my first major woodworking purchase IIRC. All went downhill from there really...


Adam":b80npin9 said:


> It may even have been Jester who answered my very _first _question I think :roll:


You were doomed from the very start then.  

Cheers, Alf


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## frank (6 Feb 2004)

the joy of hand cut dovetails on the rat  yes hand cut by using your eyes to guide the cutter ,not push it in and round the jig every one the same as the last .i made a trinket box for the lads wife for xmas i showed it to the woodwork tutor he looked at it then commented on the nice hand cut d/tails when i told him they were done on the rat the look said it all . 

keep on ratting ratters

frank


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## Bean (6 Feb 2004)

I only asked a simple question, what a responce :lol: 
Seriously I'm trying to improve the speed of cutting joints. After 2 years of doing everything by hand I purchased a Table Saw and was given a Router (small power devil). I feel that a router table would be a good idea but I cannot help but feel the they look limited and that the position of the router is poor. :?: Not owning one I'm not sure.

I cannot help but say that I still like my Hand Tools :wink: but I may just have to introduce some machinery.............Maybe the woodrat is for me.

:idea: I will look at the sites you suggest  

Bean


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## Aragorn (6 Feb 2004)

A few years ago I only used handtools too, now I'm mostly using machinery for all sorts of reasons. Most joints can be made really well on the table saw, especially with a few shop-made jigs. I'm not a rat user, but only because I took a different path when I went electric!
For various joints I use a router - I have the Leigh dovetail jig which is superb in its versatility. I think a router table is fairly limited in joint making especially with a low-powered router. I don't mean to spark off a retaliation from router table users - it's just not the way I do it.
I agree with Gidon that newbies may benefit from learning to make joints the old-fashioned way, but since you've *been there done that*, better to find a jig that simply speeds things up and the rat seems to be an all round decent way to do it.


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## Anonymous (7 Feb 2004)

Aragorn":3qln5ld6 said:


> Non-ratter here!
> I use the Leigh jig for dovetails. Also does variable width and spacing. I often have trouble with tearout even when I back up my workpiece. Anyone else have this problem?



Yep I got this too with my Leigh. I usually find that some thin ply clamped to the wood cures it htough


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## frank (7 Feb 2004)

mr bean if you want to improve the speed of cutting joints ,can you not cut them a bit quicker :twisted: :twisted: 


frank


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## Bean (7 Feb 2004)

Frank
The trouble is that I do a mug of tea per joint, for a complex joint or dovetailing a box, it can take a pot of tea per corner  .........And I just cannot afford the Tea anymore........So I think I could possibly pay for the equipment from the savings in tea :wink: 

Bean


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## frank (8 Feb 2004)

hand cut d/tails on the rat ?? and no neathandrales charging towards me dragging their knuckels out to kill this blaspemer :shock: alf have they all gone into hibenation for the winter, :twisted: 

ps what time do they get up to try and wind them up :twisted: :twisted: 

pps mr bean can you not use a long tube to a tea urn then this will save you having to stop to make more tea  


frank


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## Bean (8 Feb 2004)

What timber should I make the tube from :?: And can you cut tube on a wood rat :wink: 

Bean


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## Adam (8 Feb 2004)

Bean":izxttezr said:


> And can you cut tube on a wood rat :wink:
> 
> Bean



Yes, it'll make dowels apparently :shock:  

Just need to turn up on their side, and drill the holes out!! :twisted: 

Adam


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## Guest (9 Feb 2004)

I'm sure the woodrat is an excellent tool/jig but it seems to me that so called "Ratters" feel they must justify spending such a large amount on one jig."You can do this, you can do that" etc. It reminds me of when micro-wave ovens were new, gadgets galore were being sold for such things as boiling eggs,omelettes and other daft applications when in fact there were much simpler ways to cook.Mirowaves have their place, as does the "Rat" but I don't think it is the answer to every joint in woodworking. I'll go stand in the corner now before the said "Ratters" descend upon me in force.


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## Newbie_Neil (9 Feb 2004)

Hi jaymar



jaymar":1mg2577y said:


> I'm sure the woodrat is an excellent tool/jig but it seems to me that so called "Ratters" feel they must justify spending such a large amount on one jig."You can do this, you can do that" etc. It reminds me of when micro-wave ovens were new, gadgets galore were being sold for such things as boiling eggs,omelettes and other daft applications when in fact there were much simpler ways to cook.Mirowaves have their place, as does the "Rat" but I don't think it is the answer to every joint in woodworking. I'll go stand in the corner now before the said "Ratters" descend upon me in force.



You are obviously a very bad person and should be banned from this message board immediately. Just who do you think you are questioning the capabilities of the Rat? Why, it was only two weeks ago that the Ratters confirmed to me that it wasn't made of cast iron, you couldn't fit a dado head in the Rat and also that it didn't make the tea. Obviously, honest and trustworthy personages.

Cheers
Neil


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## Adam (9 Feb 2004)

jaymar":175vgn98 said:


> I'm sure the woodrat is an excellent tool/jig but it seems to me that so called "Ratters" feel they must justify spending such a large amount on one jig."You can do this, you can do that" etc.



LOL, Jaymar, I have never, nor would ever recommend _actually _making dowels on it! I just know that Godfrey claims it can do it. Interestingly I was talking to Mike Humphreys the other day and he said on his advanced course, he does show you how to make dowels - which surprised me as I had assumed it was only Godfrey talking up the stuff it can do.



jaymar":175vgn98 said:


> It reminds me of when micro-wave ovens were new, gadgets galore were being sold for such things as boiling eggs,omelettes and other daft applications when in fact there were much simpler ways to cook]



This I can comment on, the Woodrat is hardly new now is it? How long has it been out? A decade? Longer? And comparing it to microwaves? :? That have almost 100% penetration into UK households? :shock: Eh? And entire industries dedicated to "microwave" meals - as they are soooo popular? <insert own view on quality/taste here> :roll: And how have we managed to get from Woodrats to microwave meals anyway :lol: :lol: :lol: 



jaymar":175vgn98 said:


> but it seems to me that so called "Ratters" feel they must justify spending such a large amount on one jig



Thing is, when I bought it, which is many years ago, it wasn't as expensive as now - about £400, which is about the same as a Leigh Dovetail jig including a few other bits and bobs. So I don't actually see it as something expensive. In fact I don't even think of it as a jig. I just need to do something straight and accurate - and I think - I'll just pop it into the woodrat and do that. No fuss, easy.

The endless discussions that arise, I think, are due to the fact that people achieve the same result on it, using such different techniques, do you cut tenons with the wood mounted vertically, or horizontally, for example, have you made a jig for it, if you look through Tablesaw books - you see hundreds of tips and jigs and techniques to increase the range of functions a tablesaw can achieve - and they have been around for a pretty long time - I think it is only natural, for a "new" machine, albeit a milling machine for wood, will go through the same process, only rather than a few keen individuals writing books, I think these days, the discussions have moved on-line. So you will never be able to get away from endless 'rat questions, and I would expect them to become more and more refined, and advanced over time.

Adam


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## Adam (9 Feb 2004)

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/wr-1.htm

This is a very good website for having a read through both about the setup required initially- i.e where to put it in your workshop, but if you follow on to the section on finger joints, and dovetailing it aslo has very good pictures and explanations.

Newbie_Neil, I reckon if you ever need to point people to a website for Woodrat - this is the place I'd send them!

Adam


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## Newbie_Neil (9 Feb 2004)

Hi Adam



asleitch":i9lzot1j said:


> Newbie_Neil, I reckon if you ever need to point people to a website for Woodrat - this is the place I'd send them!



Yes, it's good for the Leigh as well. :wink: :wink: 
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/dts-ld4-1.htm

Cheers
Neil


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## Adam (9 Feb 2004)

I know, I've seen the Leigh reviews. I'd say there wasn't much in it for dovetails/finger joints. It's a good site in general, if you are thinking about purchasing anything like a jig, dowel guide etc type of thing.

Really should start adding to the links section but never quite find the time.

Adam


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## frank (9 Feb 2004)

jamar please write out in your best handwriting (dont use the computer)100 times the ratters rule long live the woodrat  

all sing the ratters song ,oh we do like to be beside our woodrats :twisted: :twisted: 

frank


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## Anonymous (9 Feb 2004)

All together now.

Dovetails, dovetails, dovetails
Dovetails, dovetails, dovetails

We love to work with our Leigh Jigs
We love to work with our Leigh Jigs
Their all so much better than a Rat

Mortices, mortices, mortices
Mortices, mortices, mortices

We love to work with our Leigh Jigs
We love to work with our Leigh Jigs
Their all so much better than a Rat

Tenons, tenons, tenons
Tenons, tenons, tenons

We love to work with our Leigh Jigs
We love to work with our Leigh Jigs
Their all so much better than a Rat


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## frank (9 Feb 2004)

any old iron any old iron chuck your leigh jigs out


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2004)

Sorry Frank

I've just placed my order for the Leigh dovetail jig.   

Cheers
Neil


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## frank (10 Feb 2004)

oh ye of little faith  but one day you will convert :twisted:


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## Newbie_Neil (10 Feb 2004)

Hi Frank



frank":tvbq38qh said:


> oh ye of little faith  but one day you will convert :twisted:



Oh Leigh (lay), Oh Leigh, Oh Leigh, Oh Leigh, Oh Leigh
Oh Leigh, Oh Leigh, Oh Leigh, Oh Leigh, Oh Leigh

Cheers
Neil


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## Adam (10 Feb 2004)

On a more serious note :roll: What tipped the balance in favour of the Leigh Neil? :idea: 

Adam


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2004)

asleitch":111hhrsw said:


> On a more serious note :roll: What tipped the balance in favour of the Leigh Neil? :idea:
> 
> Adam



Because it's better than a rat?? :wink: :wink:


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## Anonymous (10 Feb 2004)

Only joking but couldn't resist. :lol:


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## Newbie_Neil (11 Feb 2004)

Hi Adam



asleitch":14d86zzk said:


> On a more serious note :roll: What tipped the balance in favour of the Leigh Neil? :idea:
> 
> Adam



I have just been looking, and failed, to find the thread that explains my reasons. It was about six months ago and a lengthy diatribe. So here is the short version.

Before I had bought any serious woodworking tools I saw the Rat demonstrated and surprisingly it completely put me off buying one. :roll: I came away with the impression that it was a very difficult system to operate and didn't offer any real advantages. :? 

I then purchased the Trend DJ300 dovetail jig. Until late last year, when I bought the Trend M&T jig, all other jigs were made in the workshop. I wanted to be able to produce excellent quality variably spaced/sized dovetails, speedily and with built in repeatability, without relying on pencil marks. There was only ever one choice.

Alf and yourself have been really good about my Rat enquiries, but due to the cost of the Rat and training etc. I ruled it out.

As I said in another recent thread the new woodworker needs to be introduced to the Rat early on, when their minds are still open.

Cheers
Neil


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## Aragorn (11 Feb 2004)

It's a strange comparison anyway isn't it? The Leigh D4 or the Rat?
The Leigh is a dedicated dovetail jig that's top of the class. The Rat is a multi purpose device - but so is a table saw! You can cut dovetails on all three. Why the comparisons!? The Leigh is just a superb jig in every way.
Neil - you've made an excellent choice.


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## Adam (11 Feb 2004)

Aragorn":zk7dwguk said:


> It's a strange comparison anyway isn't it? The Leigh D4 or the Rat?.



In what way? The rat 8) produces superb dovetails, finger joints, sliding dovetails butt dovetails, haunch joints, stopped housings, wooden hinges, blind dovetails M&T and we haven't even got into decroative versions of the above! I think the comparisons are very valid.



Aragorn":zk7dwguk said:


> The Leigh is a dedicated dovetail jig that's top of the class.



"dedicated" is a dangerous word in my workshop!, what happens if you find a different joint you want to do? Or use with really thick wood? I have to admit to using my woodrat to cut some joints in 3x2 inch recently  Not really precision WW - but it saved me plenty of time . On that specific occasion, I was pleased the woodrat the ability to do something unusual - for lots of people, they have the space and money to buy something dedicated to every task. In an ideal world, perhaps I wouldn't have a woodrat - but a variety of other machines - dovetailer, RAS with dado-blade, spindle moutlder, dedicated morticer and a dedicated tenoner - but I seen a tenoner and it was about £3k :shock:. So for some people a Leigh would be "top of the class" - but for someone like me working in a limited size workshop - it could never be "top-of-the-class" as it only does a couple of joints. I need something with more flexibility.



Aragorn":zk7dwguk said:


> The Rat is a multi purpose device - but so is a table saw! You can cut dovetails on all three.



You just said it's a "strange comparison" above - and now you're saying you can cut dovetails on all three? So it's clearly not a strange comparison. :wink: The woodrat is designed to cut dovetails - at least it's the #1 reason I bought it. I knew I would utilise it's other functionality, but I didn't want to buy something that couldn't produce "perfect" dovetails! I bought the table saw to cross cut, and rip wood. The supports, jigs and additional danger mean I would never consider using a table saw to make dovetails.



Aragorn":zk7dwguk said:


> Why the comparisons!? The Leigh is just a superb jig in every way..



Aragorn, I don't think anyone is questioning the quality, or ability of the Leigh to make superb joints. I just think we are rightly pointing out the quality and ability of the Woodrat to make superb joints. They are after all, in direct competition with each other - so I think comparisons are valid.



> Neil - you've made an excellent choice.



I agree, anything that assists in WW, and helps you along with projects is a bonus.

I think this turned into a bit of a rant - it wasn't really how I meant it to be.  

Adam


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## Charley (11 Feb 2004)

Well done Neil, I got the Leigh last year - you won't be disappointed it's a great jig.


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## Aragorn (11 Feb 2004)

Hi Adam
That was a bit of a rant  !
Space constraints in a workshop are an important issue that I wasn't considering in my last post. When space is short, of course a more versatile tool/jig makes it a better choice over dedicated tools/jigs. I have the luxury of a large workshop, so for me it's not so much space (there's never enough) but setup time and change-over time.
Besides, Neil obviously has space to use and store the Leigh, as well as his other machines for general woodworking - I was just trying to say it is a good choice of jig 8)


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## Newbie_Neil (11 Feb 2004)

Hi Adam/Aragorn



Aragorn":1s8kytud said:


> The Leigh is a dedicated dovetail jig that's top of the class. The Rat is a multi purpose device.



I think you've hit the nail on the head. The Leigh is seen (except by Frank) as the undisputed world leader in dovetail jigs.

The Rat is perceived by the world as a "quirky" multi-purpose jig/device/system.

The Rat as, I think we all accept, is good at making lots of joints but a specific jig will always beat it hands down in terms of setup and speed.

Sorry, but this has come across as knocking the Rat, I wasn't trying to do that as I firmly believe it has a place in the workshop.

Cheers
Neil


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## Adam (11 Feb 2004)

Shall we get the thread locked down now? I think it's pretty close to a natural break? 

We need a new thread, with a link to the image gallery of your first efforts neil?

Adam


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## Adam (11 Feb 2004)

Aragorn":20qpnj7q said:


> That sounds like a good idea. I think I can do it on the Leigh - there is enough space behind the workpiece to drop the router in. I'll give it a go next time I'm dovetailing.
> Thanks!



One last post eh? Did that work for you Aragorn?


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## Newbie_Neil (11 Feb 2004)

Hi Adam



asleitch":1926wwjk said:


> Shall we get the thread locked down now? I think it's pretty close to a natural break?



Not like you to admit defeat so soon. :wink: :wink: 

Cheers
Neil


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## Adam (11 Feb 2004)

Never, death to Leigh jigs. Long live the 'Rat. Besides, leave #em together in the workshop and the 'rat will eat it. :shock: :? :lol: :lol:  :twisted: 

Adam


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## frank (11 Feb 2004)

well the big rat has got to find food for the little rat ,so he (hammer) em :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 


frank


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## Anonymous (11 Feb 2004)

I am a little confused by these posts and the strength of feeling. Who cares whether the wood Rat is better than/as good as the Leigh (it isn't for Dovetails but is for other joints). 
You pays your money and takes your choice. Everyone seems happy with their choice.

I got the Leigh because it is great for dovetails. I cut all the other joints the rat can manage in various ways and don't need nor want a jig to do cut them - that's my choice. I saw a Rat being used and it looked too complicated to me, so the Leigh won it easily.

My two penny worth.

Now please stop arguing about Wood Rats and give me some advice about my Willow logs and bench vice :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

My last three questions lie unanswered (and I do shower every day so it's not that)


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## frank (11 Feb 2004)

spoilsport i will tell me mammy  willow logs mmmmmmmmmmm cricket bats  vices well if it keeps you happy :shock:


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## SquareCircle (12 Feb 2004)

Read the posts, watched the video. Still think I'm going to get a D4 and maybe one of those Trend M&T jigs. It seems like getting good consistent results out of a Woodrat takes much more time, skill and patience. Anyone care to comment on the learning curve with the D4 :?:


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## Chris Knight (12 Feb 2004)

Squarecircle,

I have a Leigh D4 , a Woodrat and an Incra (on my router table). I use them all and the first thing to say is that they all have strengths and weaknesses.

The Leigh is great for things like cabinets (blanket chest and linen press dimensions etc) which the other two have trouble handling, especially when the pieces to be jointed are long.

The Woodrat can't be beat for dovetailing eg drawers. I can make two drawers in the time it takes to set up the Leigh.

With a tall fence (I use a bit of melamined chipboard) the Incra is King of the tenon making brigade. Its precise positioning allows one to adjust tenons by literally 1/1000 inch at a time. Nothing else comes close whatever they say! Don't bother with it for dovetails, the rat is much better.

There is lots more one could say but this is the guts of my experience with these things


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## Newbie_Neil (12 Feb 2004)

Square Circle

Have a look at this for the Leigh.

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/dts-ld4-1.htm

Cheers
Neil


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## Aragorn (12 Feb 2004)

SquareCircle":wg3305sg said:


> Anyone care to comment on the learning curve with the D4 :?:


Hi
The Leigh learning curve is pretty, well gentle I suppose! It takes a little time initially to set it up and understand using it. The instructions are superb. Once you've done a few through dovetails and a few half-blind it's quick and easy to pick it up again. 
I was attracted to the Trend MT jig too. I use a morticer and table saw currently and I'm fed up with all the changes in setup. My MT jig is in the post! I'll let you know how I get on with it if you like.
Aragorn


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## Adam (12 Feb 2004)

Aragorn, 

Theres a post on ukwoodworking on MSN groups, about using the Trend, M/T - but you only need to read the first couple of bits, 'cos we dragged it OT (sorry!  :? ) Adam

http://groups.msn.com/ukwoodworking/gen ... 6476590434


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## Aragorn (13 Feb 2004)

Thanks Adam!
I've been warned. 
Blimey, how many woodwork forums are you lot in :!: When do you get the time for making sawdust :?: :wink:


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## Adam (13 Feb 2004)

Well

UKW (THis site, UK_Workshop)

UKWW (Thast MSN group UK_Woodworking http://groups.msn.com/ukwoodworking/general.msnw)

SDA (SawDustAlley http://www.sawdustalley.co.uk/

Thats the main three I visit. I also use 

the forum on 

www.woodrat.com, although mostly just read stuff, rather than contribibute....

I presume there must be a dedicated Leigh forum somwhere, with hints, tips etc?

Adam


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## Adam (13 Feb 2004)

Aragorn":1dlz36xw said:


> When do you get the time for making sawdust :?: :wink:



Well, you're up to 30 posts in under 30 days - so it looks like your sawdust making must be reducing!!!  

Adam


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## Aragorn (13 Feb 2004)

asleitch":3c9cyjwk said:


> Well, you're up to 30 posts in under 30 days - so it looks like your sawdust making must be reducing!!!



Touché!


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## Newbie_Neil (13 Feb 2004)

Hi Adam



asleitch":3dgnc6rw said:


> I also use the forum on www.woodrat.com



Will you please refrain from posting _that_ url.

I actually made the mistake of clicking on the link. I've never seen such a rodent infested website.

Luckily, I was sitting down at the time. :wink: 

Cheers
Neil


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## Adam (13 Feb 2004)

Newbie_Neil":3kwztqdd said:


> www.woodrat.com
> 
> Will you please refrain from posting _that_ url.
> 
> ...



Well, I have to keep it on-topic after all. 8) 

Adam.

(PS: Despite Neils protestations, given the number of the postings on this "woodrat" thread, and "accidentally" clicking the link above, me thinks he'll be soon putting in his order for a 'rat  :shock:  .)


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## frank (13 Feb 2004)

adam what link was that then  

confused of little piddle farting :twisted: 

frank


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## Anonymous (14 Mar 2004)

Aragorn":4s1kkcqt said:


> Non-ratter here!
> I use the Leigh jig for dovetails. Also does variable width and spacing. I often have trouble with tearout even when I back up my workpiece. Anyone else have this problem?



Hi Aragorn

Just cut a load of dovetails with the Leigh this afternoon with no tearout at all (first time for everything) and remembered your earlier question. I climb routed the cuts very slowly and lightly at first with and then just cleared the rest out - no problem. No breakout from 12 boards with 8 DVs on each joint. 
I used a backer board but made sure I exited the cut at the rear of my project board in the middle of the DV and then came back towards myself to cut the rear edges against the guide fingers. Hope that makes sense


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