# Darkening oak



## bobscarle (22 Jun 2006)

I have been asked to make a bed headboard for my Mother-in-Law. We talked about the design and have settled on a frame made of ash and panels made from oak. I would like to darken the oak slightly to make a good contrast with the ash. I intend to use danish oil as my finish.

Can anybody recommend a good stain to use in conjunction with danish oil? Is it best to use a spirit based or water based stain?

Thanks

Bob


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## Colin C (22 Jun 2006)

You can use one or the other but I have found spirit stains much easier to use and get even


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## Chris Knight (22 Jun 2006)

Bob,
Contrary to Colin's experience, I find water based stains easier to use than spirit stains which can dry very quickly and I find that makes it harder for me to get even coverage/results.

If I am worried about the prospect of blotching (some timbers are very prone to this). I usually spray stain which makes it rather easy to get a nice even coverage and you can build up a few very light coats to get the shade you need

Having said all that, I usually fume english oak to make it darker rather than staining it as I like the resulting colour better. I do stain AWO.


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## bobscarle (22 Jun 2006)

I have heard about fuming, but never had the equipment, or the need, to try it. The panels are going to be fairly small, about 450 x 100, so I do not need a fuming tent too big. I am however worried about doing them one at a time in case they turn out different colours.

I am more interested in stains. Is there any problem using water or spirit based stains under danish oil?

Thanks for the help so far

Bob


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## Paul Chapman (22 Jun 2006)

One advantage of water-based stains is that you can lighten them and correct any unevenness with a damp cloth if necessary :wink: 

Paul


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## Colin C (22 Jun 2006)

Paul Chapman":36swrsak said:


> One advantage of water-based stains is that you can lighten them and correct any unevenness with a damp cloth if necessary :wink:
> 
> Paul


Paul 
you can do the same with spirit on spirit stain but I do use both and you should have no problem with them under danish oil


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## wrightclan (22 Jun 2006)

I prefer naptha-based stains. You don't get blotchiness like water-based stains. And you don't have the problem of drying too quickly that you get from spirit-based stains. They give a more uniform appearance all-round. There are 2 disadvantages, it takes several hours to dry completely (although it's dry to the touch in a few minutes). and you can't build it up to achieve a darker shade (if that's what you're after.) You need to pick a dye that is exactly what you want, or you can thin it to a degree with white spirits. I haven't used it with Danish oil, but I've heard of people who have. As both are oil-based, it should be no problem.

Brad


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## Chris Knight (22 Jun 2006)

Brad, Bob
Using a naphtha based stain with Danish oil could give problems just as using a water based stain with a water-based finish can give problems. The carrier for the finish is a solvent for the stain! If using Danish oil, it is far safer to stick with a water based or spirit based stain.

If you don't wish to spray the stain, you can reduce the tendency to blotch by first wetting the wood with water (just use a fairly damp cloth and wipe it over the surface) this reduces the tendency for the pores to suck up the finish as they are already partially filled with water and it helps deal with differential absorption. Also please ensure you don't confuse blotching due to a wood's characteristics with say, sanding differences on the surface of the wood - less than perfect sanding can introduce differences in appearance at staining time - say when using 320 grit on one part and 240 grit on another.

Spirit based stains are generally more fugitive than water based stains, so if this is a concern (depends on how much daylight the piece is likely to be exposed to) then do some test pieces and leave them in a window for a couple of weeks and then compare with samples which have not been exposed to the light.


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## jasonB (22 Jun 2006)

I have found Vandyke Crystals work well on oak, you can mix them to whatever consistancy you need to get the tone required.

Jason


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## wrightclan (22 Jun 2006)

waterhead37":1ijqwrok said:


> Brad, Bob
> Using a naphtha based stain with Danish oil could give problems just as using a water based stain with a water-based finish can give problems. The carrier for the finish is a solvent for the stain! If using Danish oil, it is far safer to stick with a water based or spirit based stain.



That's not a problem with naptha based stains as the colour does not sit on the surface. I have never seen any kind of solvent able to alter the colour one jot, once it is soaked into the wood. The only thing one is able to do to alter the colour is to sand it, or add a coloured topcoat.

Brad


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## Colin C (22 Jun 2006)

Hi Chris 
There is a small bit you have missed on the spirit stain as you can now get light fast ( does not fade in sun light, like before  )
Just thought I would let you all know


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## Chris Knight (22 Jun 2006)

Colin,

Thanks for that. Any particular recommendations for good brands?


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## Colin C (22 Jun 2006)

I use 
http://www.wsjenkins.co.uk/
I am lucky as they are just 2 miles from me and firms I have worked for have used them for years


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## Chris Knight (23 Jun 2006)

Colin,
Many thanks.


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## Terry Smart (23 Jun 2006)

Just to clarify that last point, as far as I know usually only methanol/ethanol based stains are fade resistant, not the white spirit based ones - which I know aren't really be spoken about here but just in case...

Our Spirit Stain range is manufactured using fade resistant dyestuffs and pigments should this be of interest,


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## wrightclan (23 Jun 2006)

Terry Smart":2l4pfpx6 said:


> Just to clarify that last point, as far as I know usually only methanol/ethanol based stains are fade resistant, not the white spirit based ones - which I know aren't really be spoken about here but just in case...
> 
> Our Spirit Stain range is manufactured using fade resistant dyestuffs and pigments should this be of interest,



Chestnut spirit stains, may be fade resistant, but I've used spirit based stains that faded very quickly on an interior door that got a lot of direct sun through a window; despite the fact that I used a varnish with uv protection. When you mention white spirit based, I think you may mean naptha based. I've never had fading problems with those. But then again, I can't think of anything I've stained which was in as extreme sunlight as that door. Just my own experience.

Brad


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## Colin C (23 Jun 2006)

Hi Terry
I did not mean white spirit stains but I was not clear on that, so thanks for adding that info


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## Colin C (23 Jun 2006)

Hi Brad
I think you might have used the old type spirit stain as it was well known to fade in sun light but the new ones dont fade as quickly.


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## colin taylor (1 Jul 2006)

I've always found Bollom's colourfast 143 stain in MAHOGANY works well as an oak stain. You get that rich polished oak colour without the 'redness' of other mahogany stains


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## WellsWood (1 Jul 2006)

waterhead37":22w6aksc said:


> Having said all that, I usually fume english oak to make it darker rather than staining it as I like the resulting colour better.



I'm with Chris on this one, if you can stand the smell and the peices are small, it's surprisingly easy to do and you get a lot more control over the shade - just take it out when you get to the colour you want.

Mark


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## The Restorer (6 Jul 2006)

If you're going to have a go at fuming take care. It'll burn your eyes and affect your sight permanantly if you're not careful :shock: 

Follow the manufacturers instructions and get the safety kit.

If you want to read up on fuming most of the american woody sites are heavily into it and you should find advice there.

.880 ammonia is available from Richard Barrys if you're looking for a supplier.


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## humanfish (18 Aug 2006)

sorry to jump on the end of an old post

I have nearly finished these hall chairs, made of oak, and i want to stain them darker using van dyke. 












When i have sanded them as usual and applied the stain will the grain rise alot? Would it be advisable to dampen the oak before to raise the grain and sand it back, then stain after this. 
I just thought that if i used the stain and the grain rose, sanding it back might ruin the stain finish and appearance.

I was also wondering if i can put sanding sealer over something like van dyke, i expect it is fine i just thought i'd check. I have a little liberon spirit sealer to use up.

sorry to hijack once again
b_h


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## Colin C (18 Aug 2006)

Hi b_h

Yes you should dampen the chairs before and sand before you stain it, but if you do it twice, you will find that you should have no problems after  

Also the sanding sealer will be fine over the van dyke and hope to see some pics when there are finished


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## humanfish (18 Aug 2006)

thanks colin, thats great
i'll be sure to post some completed photos
regards
b_h


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## Colin C (18 Aug 2006)

b_h

You sanding chairs brings back memorys for me when I started as a cabinet maker/restorer :roll: .

I used to get the chairs to sand and remember getting a set of 10 ( for painting ) and a set of 12 for polishing.

I ended up with bleeding thumbs :shock: 
As you can guess I know a little about sanding chairs :wink: 
Ps They are very nice from what I can see but more pic's :roll:


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## bobscarle (18 Aug 2006)

B_H

I saw Norm dampen some oak once in order to raise the grain before applying a finish. He suggested using distilled water to prevent any minerals in tap water colouring the wood. I haven't tried this yet but I will give it a go when I come to finish some oak.

Bob


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