# Hand Plane setup, sharpening & how to plane properly - in person course



## ArtieFufkin (26 Dec 2021)

I have a 3 decent hand planes and despite watching a good number of YouTube videos and getting a fair amount of practice I'm still not happy with my planes set up or my own self taught technique, (although that is improving gradually with time).

I'd love to attend a course 1 or 2 days that will cover the basics of plane set up and use.
I live in Oxfordshire, I wonder if anyone can recommend a course within say a 60 to 90 minute drive of Oxford please?
I've had a look on the internet but can't find anything around here - but I suspect I'm not looking in the right places or perhaps using incorrect search terms.

Thanks for any pointers.

(To add I'd gladly pay in beer, wine or hard currency if there's anyone in or around Oxfordshire that would be willing to show me how to set up my planes one saturday morning in the new year.)


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## Cabinetman (27 Dec 2021)

Once you know how to do it it’s second nature. I was taught at school and just carried on, I feel sorry for anyone trying to learn this from YouTube, there’s so much cra- about sharpening etc when it’s relatively simple. 
Hope you can find an Oap like me locally who can teach you. It’s not rocket science so don’t over fret about it, best of luck Ian


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## jcassidy (27 Dec 2021)

What problems are you having?


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## ArtieFufkin (27 Dec 2021)

jcassidy said:


> What problems are you having?



Not being able to take a very fine shaving.
Not being able to joint 2 pieces of wood.
Being unsure if the planes are set up optimally.
In short I would like to learn how to set up my planes correctly rather guessing. Hence wanting to find some tuition.


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## Bod (27 Dec 2021)

If you can find a copy of this book.








Planecraft | 1950


Planecraft Hand planning by modern methods, published by C & J Hampton, dated 1950.. Contents includes: History of the plane, bench planes, block planes, School plane no.T5, grinding the iron, whetting the iron, ploughs and ploughing, router planes, workshop hints… Hardback book that includes...




www.oldtools.co.uk





It's basically Record Tools guide to hand planes, it's the best written guide, I've ever found.
There are several versions, from the 1930's to the last and probably the best in 1959. (I believe there is a recent reprint, but have not seen a copy.)
All the settings are common to all Bailey type metal hand planes, Stanley, Record, Millar Falls, and Wickes/B&Q offerings.

if you are in North Oxfordshire, I might be able to help.

Bod


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## MikeK (27 Dec 2021)

ArtieFufkin said:


> I have a 3 decent hand planes and despite watching a good number of YouTube videos and getting a fair amount of practice I'm still not happy with my planes set up or my own self taught technique, (although that is improving gradually with time).
> 
> I'd love to attend a course 1 or 2 days that will cover the basics of plane set up and use.
> I live in Oxfordshire, I wonder if anyone can recommend a course within say a 60 to 90 minute drive of Oxford please?
> ...




This won't answer your immediate requirements for time and distance, or maybe cost, but should conditions improve and David Charlesworth offers his five-day Tool Tuning course, I recommend taking it. I live a bit farther away than Oxfordshire, but my cost of transportation, lodging, and shipping of my tools to attend all of his courses was money well spent. I arrived as a blank slate with no experience or bias, and left with incredibly sharp tools and the knowledge and skills to keep them sharp.

In case the face to face courses aren't available, the next best thing in my opinion are David's videos. These are available in DVD or streaming format:






Plane Sharpening


» Plane Sharpening | Tool tuning, tool sharpening, and fine furniture making courses




www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk










Precision Preparation of chisels for accurate joinery


» Precision Preparation of chisels for accurate joinery | Tool tuning, tool sharpening, and fine furniture making courses




www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk










Precision Planing


» Precision Planing | Tool tuning, tool sharpening, and fine furniture making courses




www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk


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## Sporky McGuffin (27 Dec 2021)

I did Peter Sefton's beginners/hand tool course - lots of sharpening and you make a letter rack. Definitely worth considering.









Beginners’ Course - Peter Sefton Furniture School


Peter Sefton Furniture School Woodworking and Furniture Making Courses - Beginners’ Course - Learn the essential skills needed to use furniture making tools




www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.com


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## Spectric (27 Dec 2021)

The hand plane, looks so simple and versatile yet I have not got one, yes I know I am missing something handy and useful but to me it is the great unknown.


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## MikeK (27 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I did Peter Sefton's beginners/hand tool course - lots of sharpening and you make a letter rack. Definitely worth considering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is this new???? I don't recall seeing this when I was looking for suitable courses a few years ago. To the best of my memory, the only tool-related courses I can remember from Peter were weekend or two-day courses.


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## Ttrees (27 Dec 2021)

This might just be one of the best videos on the subject of planing using a reference, there was an original of this video which might be flying about in the either, regardless if you go searching for that or not, the one linked will get you to a point of taking full length shavings, so beyond this video is some lessons which you might pick up from David Charlesworth's videos.
You will have precice methodoligy after this.

And then afterwards should you be getting tearout or planing long stock,
you could look at the other David (W) for more on setting up the tools themselves, 
as any other guru's advice that's not the same is silly ostrich behavour, which is still very much so, abundant.


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## Sporky McGuffin (27 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> Is this new???? I don't recall seeing this when I was looking for suitable courses a few years ago. To the best of my memory, the only tool-related courses I can remember from Peter were weekend or two-day courses.



I did it in early 2016.


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I did Peter Sefton's beginners/hand tool course - lots of sharpening and you make a letter rack. Definitely worth considering.
> 
> .....


That was the first thing we did in school woodwork age 11 - lots of sharpening and a letter rack. Then an egg rack (similar but with holes in). Then a bit of woodturning. My 12" bowl started at 3" deep but was down to 1" by the time I'd finished it and beaten it into submission.


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## Sporky McGuffin (27 Dec 2021)

Did it end up a lampshade?

I did an Axminster turning course. As you might imagine, more than one person went through the bottom of their bowl; the instructor's comment was "Your peanuts will fall out of that." Which was much funnier at the time.


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Did it end up a lampshade?


 More "plate" than anything.My mum kept it for years and years


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## ArtieFufkin (27 Dec 2021)

Bod said:


> If you can find a copy of this book.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, will have a look for the book.
I am near Kidlington


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## ArtieFufkin (27 Dec 2021)

A week away isn't practical unfortunately.


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## Peter Sefton (27 Dec 2021)

MikeK said:


> Is this new???? I don't recall seeing this when I was looking for suitable courses a few years ago. To the best of my memory, the only tool-related courses I can remember from Peter were weekend or two-day courses.



I have been running this one for at least ten years or more, sharpening and tool preparation/selection are covered in the first day and half, the rest of the week is planing, joint cutting, assembly and finishing.

I did run a two day sharpening course which was basically the same as the first two days of the five day beginners course but the uptake was never great and I would prefer to teach sharping alongside making.

Cheers

Peter


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## MikeK (27 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> I have been running this one for at least ten years or more, sharpening and tool preparation/selection are covered in the first day and half, the rest of the week is planing, joint cutting, assembly and finishing.
> 
> I did run a two day sharpening course which was basically the same as the first two days of the five day beginners course but the uptake was never great and I would prefer to teach sharping alongside making.
> 
> ...



Thank you for explaining, Peter.


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## mrpercysnodgrass (27 Dec 2021)

Hi ArtieFufkin.
I have a copy of Planecraft which you are welcome to have. If you PM me your address I will pop it in the post for you.


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## Bm101 (27 Dec 2021)

I've also got a copy if you want to buy it. Bite his hand off.


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## Jameshow (27 Dec 2021)

Paul seller is only down the road from you. 

His videos are straightforward and informative. 

Also look at men's sheds they usually have a cabinet maker in their midst. 

Cheers James


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## baldkev (27 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> The hand plane, looks so simple and versatile yet I have not got one, yes I know I am missing something handy and useful but to me it is the great unknown.




As a site carpenter, i rarely break out a jack plane. I always have one of the block planes near me though. We actually didnt do much with them at colledge ( 24ish years ago ) and as i was day release, most site work was with an electric planer! Ive got a l.n no4, a stanley no4, 2x stanley 5's and they are barely used! 

i recommend starting with blockplanes, but get something good to start with ( an older stanley 60 1/2 for instance ) do not buy a new irwin, i can personally attest to them being pathetic out of the box. Mine needed the iron's edge resharpening to make it square, the body casting isnt 100% square and the slot holes in the iron were off centre a few mm, so i had to file out the hole to get it to sit properly in the body. Shocking quality.


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2021)

One good trick for learning to plane is to spend time planing the edges of thin boards , say 6 to 12mm. Need to be firmly held in a vice of course - on a solid bench.
It's much easier for a beginner to get a shaving and you can see how much difference adjustments make, where and how the plane is cutting or not cutting. It's a sort of diagnostic.
When you are in control move on to wider pieces but wind the blade back a touch with each step.
Feel free to drop in here with your planes if you are ever up this way, but not until mid Feb after I've had my op.


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## Ttrees (27 Dec 2021)

I get the feeling Artie is using a workmate.
Learning to plane on flat surface is self explanatory, and should one be thinking of doing a course rather than sorting out a reliable surface to plane on sounds a bit counterproductive to me.

That video I linked is probably the best you will find, even though it seems Rob is a little rusty not going from corner to corner straight away to deal with the twist ?
His older publication on the matter is a better watch, put it this way, try finding a better video for nothin.

95 percent of everything else on the tube (regarding planing something not pre machined) has all sorts of bad habits
Two main ones which comes to mind are...

Clamping a board to plane its face side, only necessary if you're Peter Follansbee,
and planing whilst the work is un-supported.

If you were to go by those rules, that would eliminate most of anything which would be misleading for someone who _wants to _

Maybe it's a matter of teach my why a flat surface is so important? 
I'll give it another shot as to why, as I'm back home now.

I'll try and reason why these things mentioned are bothersome, the questions are a bit backwards for me trying to structure a photographical answer.



ArtieFufkin said:


> Not being able to joint 2 pieces of wood.
> Not being able to take a very fine shaving.



Hopefully you have a straight edge of some sort, as long as the work is.
I'd like to have the bench/planing beam what have you, this flat.
Then you can utilize the techniques like sighting easily and accurately, and to a finer extent candle the edge with a good lamp behind the work.

(lampshade is 7.5" old school angle poise, seen similar "terital" in ikea for a tenner, but might need a larger shade made for them)
Still not as good, but a good start for now, you need swing to see _underneath_ both sides of the work.
See a good bit of material to be removed from the ends, can't plane into a hollow with a flat handplane, as it's not a belt sander.







Depending how long it takes, or how good/long of a level you might have already,
you will eventually get to the point where you have one reliable surface .
With a pencil gauge, or vernier calipers to find the lowest point, 
plane the timber so it's parallel along the length.
Do the same with a second beam, these are parallel in length as to be flipped around 
to make sure there is no matching errors.

Now you know you can trust the straight edge/timber beams and dress the benchtop/planing beam flat.






With something flat, techniques like pivoting, knocking, rocking, burnishing or marking using the surface or straight edge.
Charlesworth will show you these if you look 



ArtieFufkin said:


> Being unsure if the planes are set up optimally.
> In short I would like to learn how to set up my planes correctly rather guessing.



I think it's worth noting that a plane set for a light cut, might not be as light as one thinks it is.
To find out what a smoother should be advanced to, one could try this cheat using graphite, crayon, or even just by rubbing the timber against something flat.
It is self explanatory that the high spots are in contact with the bench, 
and the rest of the timber won't sit flat until these areas are removed.







A good lamp makes this simple, beware that those on the bay have very misleading measurements 





So hopefully the point has come across that you wouldn't be wanting to be planing very accurately on a surface like the bench below.
Anyone with such a bench with cut marks and chops in it, obviously isn't wanting to do precise work by hand.
A tell tale sign IMO

All the best
Tom


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## Jameshow (27 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I get the feeling Artie is using a workmate.
> Learning to plane on flat surface is self explanatory, and should one be thinking of doing a course rather than sorting out a reliable surface to plane on sounds a bit counterproductive to me.
> 
> That video I linked is probably the best you will find, even though it seems Rob is a little rusty not going from corner to corner straight away to deal with the twist ?
> ...


Agreed a good solid bench is the companion to effective planecraft....


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## shed9 (27 Dec 2021)

All this talk about plane use but the real question is, what is the best way to sharpen a blade?

Discuss......


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## ArtieFufkin (27 Dec 2021)

Hi.
I have 2 solid, flat benches and a decent record vice. 
I have a number 4, 4-1/2, and 5-1/2 planes, all vintage ones. (Hardly use the 4 as its feels too small compared to the 4.5)
I didn't mean for people to spend time preparing detailed replies. But thank you very much to everyone who has responded.
And thanks for the offer of the book, I will make a donation to charity when it arrives. 
I will check out the videos and links and information here and look out for a course next year.

I'd be glad to meet up with someone on a Saturday morning for a chat about planes.
But irregardless of that or finding a course I really appreciate everyone's offer of help and information.
Very nice forum to be part of.


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## JSW (27 Dec 2021)

shed9 said:


> All this talk about plane use but the real question is, what is the best way to sharpen a blade?
> 
> Discuss......


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## Jameshow (27 Dec 2021)

JSW said:


>



Ok then which is better a track saw or a table saw......!


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## Ttrees (28 Dec 2021)

ArtieFufkin said:


> Hi.
> I have 2 solid, flat benches and a decent record vice.



Hopefully it's as flat as the work of a jointed edge should be, so you don't have to pick up
a straight edge, which is less than optimal if one only has a trued wooden beam.

If it's laminated timbers of various grain direction and lumps are found,
be it witness marks from burnishing the straight edge, or by graphite stick from an art shop, or dark crayon like in my pic above, sighting and using tips like Charlesworth mentions, will make it a sure way of the path to full length shavings.
David W's videos are worth watching if tearout is concern beyond this, although
I don't think a vice is the best practice for learning how to plane, unless its scrub work down to a line, and you don't have dogs, (presuming you're not learning whils't fixing the doors in the house)

I've been thinking about getting a straight edge, as long jointed timbers get used up.
Thinking of taking a gamble on this one below,
Had a look at this one locally and seemed to be good quality.
Its milled on both edges, seemingly no packaging on the one I saw.
There wasn't a second one there, I might have brought a wee torch and sat two together on a shelf, and done the flip test to see if I could double the error.

There's a bevel on these which is less than ideal, but it seems difficult to find a straight edge of any length with crisp corners.
Faithfull do a plasters level, but not sure how rigid it is
(at this length there is some flexing which is a worry)
Bahco do an aluminium straight edge spirit level, but seems unavailable.
Haven't seen much else which was worth talking about, nothing around this length I've seen with dual milled edges stood out to me, if even exists
(Stabilla seems to have some, but not in this price range)







Edit: I have seen 2000mm ones from the Amaszon website for sixty something,
Looked on the bay also, but couldn't find it as cheap?


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## Cabinetman (28 Dec 2021)

ArtieFufkin said:


> Hardly use the 4 as its feels too small compared to the 4.5)


Now that’s the one I use every day, I suggest you give it a try, starting out I think it may help you to get your action right— it’s lighter so it’s more easily controlled, and don’t forget to use a candle, makes a huge difference!


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## DavidConnelly (28 Dec 2021)

__





Planecraft Hand Planing Modern Methods - AbeBooks


Planecraft - Hand planing by Modern Methods by Hampton, C. W.; Clifford, E. and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.co.uk.



www.abebooks.co.uk


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I get the feeling Artie is using a workmate.


A workmate is hopeless for planing or sawing.


> Learning to plane on flat surface is self explanatory,


More a case of being firmly held either by a vice or against a stop. If it rocks about a wedge or two may keep it steadier, whatever the surface


> .... bad habits
> Two main ones which comes to mind are...
> 
> Clamping a board to plane its face side,
> and planing whilst the work is un-supported.


yes, better done loose against a stop and well supported


> If you were to go by those rules, that would eliminate most of anything which would be misleading for someone who _wants to _
> 
> Maybe it's a matter of teach my why a flat surface is so important?


Not really critical. If the board is twisted it isn't going to lie flat anyway


> ....
> 
> Hopefully you have a straight edge of some sort, as long as the work is.


Not necessary. You sight down the length for straightness, but short straight edge across is useful - the edge of the plane will do.
You don't need feeler gauges, vernier calipers, any gadgets at all.
Couldn't really pick my way through the rest of Ttrees post it's too complicated and nothing like planing as I know it!
You could work off that knackered bench if it's solid, if you had to.
You could work off a workmate by clamping in a long timber and bracing it against the wall.
You don't need a long level you do it by sighting.
A flat bench is handy but a twisted timber will rock about - try it first and if necessary put a thin wedge or two under it.

The one big first essential is to _*cut everything to length*_ according to your cutting list _*before attempting to plane*_. Do not fall into the beginners trap of assuming you have to plane your timber and produce PAR just like a timber yard - this is not how you do it and is really difficult.

PS top tip is a squiggle of candle wax. Also good is a pair of winding sticks. Anything will do as long as they are straight and identical.


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## Craig22 (28 Dec 2021)

I use an Axminster straight edge. A 1 meter steel one, which they used to do. Now they only seem to do aluminum ones. Certified steel straight edges (like Starrett) are not cheap, and aren't needed. To see what that sort of thing costs RS PRO 1m Steel Metric Straight Edge | RS Components .

But the ground edge ally ones like the Veritas ones are pretty darn good, accurate to 75 microns (3 thou) along a 1 metre length.

For edge jointing I use the straight edge along the length and feeler gauges to judge where the board is high and low. And a square to check across the board against a strong light. So I know how much to plane off and where.

A good trick beyond feeler gauges (the practical limit for those is 40um or 1.5 thou) is to use fag paper. I keep a pack of Rizla in the workshop for precisely that reason. That is an astonishingly predictable 20 microns.


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## paulrbarnard (28 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Now that’s the one I use every day, I suggest you give it a try, starting out I think it may help you to get your action right— it’s lighter so it’s more easily controlled, and don’t forget to use a candle, makes a huge difference!


I agree. A heavier plane often feels easier to use as the mass counteracts an over aggressive cut. Using the lighter 4 might well help the OP gain a better understanding of cut depth.


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## Chrispy (28 Dec 2021)

You have mail.


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## bp122 (28 Dec 2021)

Artie

I'm in Haddenham. If you wish I can show you how I have been getting results with my handplanes, both sharpening and setting them up.

I am by no means an expert or as experienced as most on this forum, but I have watched enough videos by various people to have a basic idea.

Point is, if you wish, you can come over to my bomb site, we'll find a 12"x12" space for you to stand on (if you wear size 10 or larger shoes, sorry ) and we can go over some stuff in a couple of hours. (Difficult to commit to more than that in one day because of my baby boy and his endless shenanigans, but we can always do more another day as the journey is very short)

I have a selection of handplanes for you to try as well (metal and wooden, large and small) , you can bring yours, we'll sharpen one from scratch and see how we do.

Offer is open!
Best regards,
Bp


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## shed9 (28 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Ok then which is better a track saw or a table saw......!


And do you really need that guard on the table saw if you go that route, I mean really, what use is it?


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## Bod (28 Dec 2021)

Here is a very good method of creating straight edges.








Making A Wooden Straight Edge


There's been a few mentions recently about wooden straight edges, every time the topic comes up I remember that mine is getting bit long in the tooth and should be replaced. I had a spare half hour this morning so made one up. For shorter straight edges, say 150mm or 300mm I tend to use an...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk




This was written by one of the more highly skilled members here, and is at least a good planing practise exercise.

Bod


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## hlvd (28 Dec 2021)

Bench Planes - DVD


Woodworkers looking to increase their building productivity will be guided through the use, techniques, and construction of bench planes in this valuable hour-l




blackwells.co.uk





This gentleman is sadly not with us but he taught the apprentices at the Royal Aircraft Establishment RAE, a fascinating man with an incredible knowledge gained through a lifetime in the trade.

I had this video in the 90’s and has to be one of the best things I’ve ever seen regarding woodworking planes.

I’m not sure how it’s aged now that we’re in the YouTube generation, a fascinating man nonetheless.


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## Ttrees (28 Dec 2021)

Keen to see a video that Jacob or whoever else agrees with him recommends.
As I've said that Cosman video might be the best on youtube.
Could be done twice as fast if not talking to an audience, but more importantly
not caring about being in the way of the camera, as that seriously affects things
, but the principal is the same for any users of the _flat _bench.

Wouldn't take 2 minutes to spot something silly on other videos I've seen, should it be a much different methodology than that above, and point out or prove why this or that won't work, very simple to see bull in that regards.

Can't master planing if the work is deflecting, the thinner the stock, the more of a concern this is.
The smoother should be able to plane any direction for that given timber, with no heed needed for grain direction, hence the name might suggest that it's suited to take a fine shaving.
Minimum deflection, or a flat surface is the key to deal with what others might call tricky grain, as that is only a consideration for rough jack work, and can be forgotten beyond that. 
Can't utilize the cap iron if you're planing into a hollow, all you can do is advance the iron and pull back the cap until it aint working no more.

(and I've discounted Follansbee, as most don't cleave their own wettish stock)
That's the only time where one would would need dogs, packers, or birds mouths on the bench, unless its for something super specific.

Tom


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## shed9 (28 Dec 2021)

hlvd said:


> Bench Planes - DVD
> 
> 
> Woodworkers looking to increase their building productivity will be guided through the use, techniques, and construction of bench planes in this valuable hour-l
> ...


I would add our very own Mr Sefton also has excellent videos available in this area. I suspect he is a little too modest to push his extensive wares without prompt within this thread whereas I on the other hand am quite happy to be brazen about it.









Peter Sefton Selecting and Using Hand Planes Download


Peter Sefton Selecting and Using Hand Planes. Peter takes you on a passionate guided tour through the fantastic range of hand planes available to woodworkers and furniture makers, and shows how to select the most suitable plane for a variety of tasks and difficult grain types.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk












Peter Sefton Chisel and Plane Grinding Download


Peter Sefton Chisel and Plane Grinding. Grinding is a key element in preparing your tools for sharpening – woodworkers need to master a minimal amount of grinding in a controlled and safe way to ensure the longevity of their tools, without losing the steel’s temper.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk












Peter Sefton Chisel and Plane Sharpening Download


Peter Sefton Chisel and Plane Sharpening. Consistent and effective sharpening is essential to gain the most from your woodworking tool investment. Many people find sharpening difficult but Peter shows how to easily achieve quick and repeatable results across a range of steel types and honing angles.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk


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## Ttrees (28 Dec 2021)

Pity the videos don't at least give a glimpse of some techniques used like Charlesworth's, so you have an idea of what you're getting.

I expected to at least see some shavings, influenced ones at that, and not just curlies.


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## Peter Sefton (28 Dec 2021)

shed9 said:


> I would add our very own Mr Sefton also has excellent videos available in this area. I suspect he is a little too modest to push his extensive wares without prompt within this thread whereas I on the other hand am quite happy to be brazen about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks @shed9 I made the videos with Artisan Media as not everybody has the time or resources to give up a week for a course.

Some are clips that didn't get used within the main videos and some are just extra bits.











I remember filming this, it was one of the hottest days of the year and we spent about ten hours under the lights with the windows closed as the RAF kept buzzing the area with helicopters AHHH

Cheers

Peter


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Keen to see a video that Jacob or whoever else agrees with him recommends.
> As I've said that Cosman video might be the best on youtube.
> Could be done twice as fast if not talking to an audience, but more importantly
> not caring about being in the way of the camera, as that seriously affects things
> ...


Yes a flat bench is a good idea I'm not completely mad.
But the actual flattening is done by sighting along the face for straightness, or across with a straightedge for flatness - combi square ruler most typically, winding sticks for twist, not by reference to the bench surface. Then thicknessing by working to gauge lines.
Yes thin stuff needs supporting - I'd most likely do it on a piece of mdf, with thin laths pinned on for stops. The mdf up against the bench stop.
Not sure what you mean about planing into hollows - if you are flattening you only take off high points and don't plane into hollows at all. Though the shorter the plane the easier it would be, hence smoothers are short - they are for finishing, not flattening.
PS just watched Peters vids above. What I do is much the same except my bench is a bit rufty tufty with a deep well so I'd modify the ways of holding accordingly.
PPS winding sticks double for straightedge across a board.
One wheeze with a non stainless steel rule across the board is to rub it a bit and it leaves a mark on the high points and leaves hollows unmarked. If its shiny then pencil lead it. Plane off the marks.
I use pencils a lot - scribble over the whole surface of a piece and you can see where you've been, or scribble on the high sides as shown by winding sticks and plane the marks off.
I never use a long straightedge (except for constructional purposes) - it's easy to see if a board is straight or twisted without one. For joining two boards I'd offer them up to each and plane any fine adjustments to make them fit tight and co-planar.


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## Ttrees (28 Dec 2021)

Why not straighten/flatten the bench and use it, flipping or turning the work over, rather than getting the straight edge and checking?
Since one had a straight edge makes sense to use it for the bench.

Never made a planing stop, but see they could be handy, not having much sheet goods,
I just use some offcut butted against the stop/cleat, and raise the work using a flat board at hand.

Agreed the smoother is short, and as so, can only work to its full potential if it's used as such, (well on the species I work with, that is necessary)
Should be able to see the evidence if working on such a example.
Planing full length thin shavings as per the OP's trouble.

Wanting to be able to plane in any direction, and treat the material as it were riven stock soundboard grade timber without flaws, makes near anything but a stop in front of the material overkill for planing.

It's not asking for much.
Working knotty timber for example, and so on.

That's my take on it, coming from someone who clamps down the work for other tasks which many others wouldn't, I see the bench being flat much faster and less reliant on technique alone.

.
Nice for spotting things which may have changed, as that does cost an extra shaving or two sometimes,
what's unlikely a concern for those buying loads of timber, and can afford to have a large selection other material on hand.

It's a whole other tool in my view, and teaches one instantly should they use it as a trustworthy surface, rather than just a means of holding the work/jig for holding the work.
That's not knocking the beans idea, which principal I'm gonna fool about with, likely good for planing very thin stock.


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Why not straighten/flatten the bench and use it, flipping or turning the work over, rather than getting the straight edge and checking?


Easier to see with a straight edge across the face, easier to see by just looking along the length. Not least because you have to do it many times and don't want to keep heaving the workpiece around! Putting the workpiece face down also means you can't see any hollows.


> Never made a planing stop, but see they could be handy,....


 Mine is a length of inch and half square hardwood in a hole through the bench near left hand end. Can hammer it up or down. Can trim it by planing a bit off if it gets a bit tatty
PS "Planing full length thin shavings" is just for planing demos not normal woodwork. The Japanese make it a competitive thing. Anybody can do it with sharp plane and the right wood!


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## Ttrees (28 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Easier to see with a straight edge across the face, easier to see by just looking along the length. Not least because you have to do it many times and don't want to keep heaving the workpiece around! Putting the workpiece face down also means you can't see any hollows. Mine is a length of inch and half square hardwood in a hole through the bench near left hand end. Can hammer it up or down. Can trim it by planing a bit off if it gets a bit tatty


Maybe if its a bit larger than what Cosman's video, I'd want to use a straight edge, but that's rare in my case, and still more faff to check for twist.

You _can _see the hollows when the material is face side down, unless someone's been having a laugh with a scrub plane and working in the center.
edit...
(in that case where you might have a hollow in the center, yet a surrounding high spot, the work held loosely will rest and rotate in the middle like a propeller,
all the tricks one would use with a straight edge)...
but the typical example, near every example in my case, is something with twist.

The flat bench trumps the straight edge in regards to maximum yield concerning the opposite face.



Haven't fully decided on what's the best planing stop for me yet, so just made do with a cleat, doesn't solve holding thinner stock like long veneer, like the beans tin idea could also possibly double up as.


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## Farm Labourer (28 Dec 2021)

Taken this evening. I'm pretty well self-taught when it comes to sharpening and tuning - this is a second hand QuangSheng 62 low angle jack plane that I recently acquired. It originally came from Workshop Heaven and I am led to believe that their QA is high. I cleaned it, lubed it, candle-waxed the sole and treated the blade to a sharpen on cheap Chinese diamond stones. I can see through the shaving on an inch thick oak board (part of a console table, I'm building), so am more than happy. A sharp blade has two surfaces (bevel and back) meeting - how well they meet, will dictate the accuracy of cut/rip... that's about as scientific as it gets, surely?




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> This might just be one of the best videos on the subject of planing using a reference, there was an original of this video which might be flying about in the either, regardless if you go searching for that or not, the one linked will get you to a point of taking full length shavings, so beyond this video is some lessons which you might pick up from David Charlesworth's videos.
> You will have precice methodoligy after this.
> 
> And then afterwards should you be getting tearout or planing long stock,
> ...



Just had a look at the vid. I do the same sort of thing quite often but my planer is only 12". I'd do one face by hand on long pieces which are difficult to pass over the top of the plane and keep straight. Longest was for some 14ft newel posts - sighted only I don't have a 14 ft reference surface!
I don't see the need for the "reference" surface as such, as it's much easier to squint down the length of the board to check for twists and bends, as Cosman does several times himself, without turning it over, as Cosman also does.
Not sure which face he's planing but I'd do the concave face as you have to remove far less material to make it ride straight through the thicknesser without rocking, usually from two opposing corners, or just the ends.
Then pass it though the thicknesser and start taking off from the centre of the convex side. When that side is flat enough to sit without rocking then pass it through concave side up and flatten the first side
No prob.
For very long pieces (my 14ft 4x4" newel posts) I worked out a cunning wheeze: Difficult to sight a 14ft long face but easy to sight a 14ft arris. I planed one arris dead straight (by looking at it, no 14ft straightedges around!) and used that as the reference for planing one face flat by hand, then squaring up another face. Then finish the back 2 faces through the thicknesser.


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> .... more faff to check for twist.


2 winding sticks - also check hollows simultaneously.


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## Ttrees (29 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not sure which face he's planing but I'd do the concave face as you have to remove far less material to make it ride straight through the thicknesser without rocking, usually from two opposing corners, or just the ends.
> Then pass it though the thicknesser and start taking off from the centre of the convex side. When that side is flat enough to sit without rocking then pass it through concave side up and flatten the first side



There's variance in broad statements like this Jacob, I'm approaching this from a hand tool perspective.
Most take out the hump in the middle so the material wouldn't deflect and be rocking about,
On thinner material this is crucial if _fine _through shavings is to be achieved, i.e smooth planing.

Never felt the need to use winding sticks for this, I'd have the work turned over and be planing by the time it would take to check.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Jacob said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure which face he's planing but I'd do the concave face as you have to remove far less material to make it ride straight through the thicknesser without rocking, usually from two opposing corners, or just the ends.
> ...


Cosman is showing how to set up a big 15" piece for *machining*, not "a hand tool perspective".
I've done it often on narrower pieces to fit my machine and generally would expect to take the high points off the concave side i.e. ends and edges
My machine couldn't do that width and I'd have to do both sides by hand.
I'd start by cutting it to size for the project, then plane the best face, then the edges, then the back face to gauge lines.
I'd have it loose on the bench against a stop at the left hand end and against some sort of temporary fence at the long back edge, the stop clamped or nailed to the bench. If it was too rocky I'd slip a wedge or two under it. I'd hold it in the vice for the edges, with some sort of packing under fo a convenient height. I keep loads of offcuts and reclaimed stuff so that there is always something to use for supporting things and other purposes. Joist ends are good for blocks, little trimmings good for laths etc etc


> On thinner material this is crucial if _fine _through shavings is to be achieved, i.e smooth planing.


Through shavings is just something for planing demos and not what you expect from normal planing, unless it happens easily


> Never felt the need to use winding sticks for this, I'd have the work turned over and be planing by the time it would take to check.


Winding sticks take seconds to use! Absolutely basic essential bit of kit and used everywhere. You really are missing out if you don't use them. Make your own - just a couple of laths planed precisely to same height. Or three can be useful. You can buy them but that is just for the feeble minded!


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## Ttrees (29 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Cosman is showing how to set up a big 15" piece for *machining*, not "a hand tool perspective".



The methodology is the same though, using the bench as a reference
Look again at the video @7:24
Noting the bump in the middle and flipping the work to remove it.
Keeping the concave side down makes it easier to work, but on thin stock
this may need be repeated once one gets close, due to deflection.

I have winding sticks of sorts, (bearers for rising the work) and used them for big awkward stuff, but never for smaller boards or anything, and just looking at the ends is enough for narrow stuff.
I can see why they could be handy should one be using a thicknesser, just getting enough so the work sits flat so it will get the job done.
As I said Charlesworth's video's takes care of the rest of the stuff,
which is still in keeping with the same methodology.


Through shavings should most definitely be expected if one is to be efficient when planing down to a gauge line, wanting to clean the surface with a swipe with a smoother either, but maybe I should go into this a bit more and say, one should never expect the plane to come out of a cut, (bar cleaning machined timber)
they should always be planing coplanar to the bench, be it short swipes from the middle, like a bump, diagonal to remove the high corners, or nipping off the ends, you know what you're doing when you can see where the work is in contact with the benchtop and plane only in those areas, and maybe a run through the centre for luck knowing where to stop.
So basically a shaving is _always _expected for as long as one wants it.
I can't see what's strange about this, normal to me.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> The methodology is the same though, using the bench as a reference


No it isn't. Cosman is quite specifically preparing a piece for the thicknesser.
He obviously wouldn't need to _prepare_ the piece for hand planing - he's actually hand planing perfectly well with no difficulty


> ....I have winding sticks of sorts, (bearers for rising the work) and used them for big awkward stuff, but never for smaller boards or anything, and just looking at the ends is enough for narrow stuff.


You need to get into using winding sticks you are missing a trick and could be in for a surprise!


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## Ttrees (29 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> No it isn't. Cosman is quite specifically preparing a piece for the thicknesser.
> He obviously wouldn't need to _prepare_ the piece for hand planing - he's actually hand planing perfectly well with no difficultyYou need to get into using winding sticks you are missing a trick and could be in for a surprise!



The method of using the bench is evident, might not be evident to you, but ask yourself 
why Rob wouldn't have flipped it over and planed the other, what you say easier side (less material needed to be removed)
regardless what way you look at it, the timber rests best concave side down, and sitting on the corners.

Keen to see a video of someone planing something no longer than the bench , whilst using winding sticks, where you think might be faster than using the bench .
I've watched plenty, and it takes longer than what I do.

Not saying winding sticks aren't a valid skill, longer stuff than the bench is and so on,
but for bench sized stuff looks like unnecessary work to me.


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## paulrbarnard (29 Dec 2021)

Just for fun here is a video of me dimensioning a small board for a box from a year or so ago. 
@Jacob will be please to note the use of winding sticks. I made my winding over 20 years ago. Very simple planed sticks one in maple the other in cherry.

You will see in the first part that I clamp the stock to the bench. This is because I am using a scrub diagonally accross the board as i had a lot of material to remove. Near the end when I am giving a final smoothing pass I just use the bench stop which is my normal way of working..


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## paulrbarnard (29 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> The method of using the bench is evident, might not be evident to you, but ask yourself
> why Rob wouldn't have flipped it over and planed the other, what you say easier side (less material needed to be removed)
> regardless what way you look at it, the timber rests best concave side down, and sitting on the corners.


Interestingly I was taught to do it the otherway up. I.E. put the convex side down and use wedges. The reason I was given at the time was that on thiner stock the centre of the board can be flexed downwards as you plane resulting in a convex planed surface when the wood springs back.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Just for fun here is a video of me dimensioning a small board for a box from a year or so ago.
> @Jacob will be please to note the use of winding sticks. I made my winding over 20 years ago. Very simple planed sticks one in maple the other in cherry.
> 
> You will see in the first part that I clamp the stock to the bench. This is because I am using a scrub diagonally accross the board as i had a lot of material to remove. Near the end when I am giving a final smoothing pass I just use the bench stop which is my normal way of working..



Full marks for winding stick use! Matters even more on longer pieces and narrower pieces where twist is less visible
I couldn't use my ECE scrub in the way you are as it's too cambered and is only for rough stuff. I'd use a slightly cambered 5 instead.


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## Ttrees (29 Dec 2021)

I think planing across the board is wasting a lot of time here, it might make sense for huge stuff, but that's easier workable with the grain using a wider iron IMO.
If one were to plane from corner to corner areas diagonally instead (if twisted)
then the need for holding the work from behind or to the side wouldn't be necessary. 
The same goes for shimming the work, another thing in the way of the reference.
I'd sooner just take the few cuts, have it sit stable and be flatter.

Deflection might be the very thing stopping a lot of folks from getting to grips with the cap iron.
That might not be so strange to some to get these results with a fine set jack, and for some they may think that's below the first rough set jack as good as it gets

Finer shavings needed now, as tearout is getting close to line using the beater plane.





Still a wee bit of tearout after some influenced shavings, many stop here.




and deal with that tearout other ways, but I'm switching to my smoother 
Note the cap is close, so the shaving must be a fine one.





I doubt the plane will work sufficiently if the work isn't fully supported everywhere
with this light of a cut, that's why I think wedges and dogs for the likes of fine work
doesn't make sense.





Likewise to making jigs and fixtures might make sense for somethings like kumiko,
but for something with a bit of stability like a little box component, 
is taking away from the non skillful method of just looking to see if the work is flat or not, knowing that the bench is reliable and it's all easy peasy.


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## Cabinetman (29 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I think planing across the board is wasting a lot of time here, it might make sense for huge stuff, but that's easier workable with the grain using a wider iron IMO.
> If one were to plane from corner to corner areas diagonally instead (if twisted)
> then the need for holding the work from behind or to the side wouldn't be necessary.
> The same goes for shimming the work, another thing in the way of the reference.
> ...


Ok, I’ll be the fall guy here. Would you mind explaining please Ttrees what an influenced shaving is?


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Ok, I’ll be the fall guy here. Would you mind explaining please Ttrees what an influenced shaving is?


Lol, should you be traveling to PA then I think you will find out fairly soon, although
I did give you a link before to the "setting a cap iron" article on a wood central article.

I've tried my best to show influenced shavings *which a smoother was designed to do*. (if necessary), so that probably covers 70% of all timbers anyone might have.

Planing some wet ash rounds recently, and the cap iron needed to be set far away from the edge, haven't too much of an answer for that,
at best I could reckon that the through shavings had enough strength to keep together
and resist tearing, but a pure guess, I haven't mucked about with much ash, but be interesting to see the fancy flooring offcuts is anyway similar.
One could see straight shavings, so guessing the cap likely could have had effect/influence, much what looks like what Follansbee's cuts.
Strength of the shaving "breaking the chip" without need for any "pressing down of the fibres" with the mouth.

Could waffle on about "influenced" shavings, Kato & Kawai video, its an old Japanese? video of an experiment where they rigged up _a double iron _(like on a Bailey plane)
and experimented with the cap iron, there is no mouth involved, so takes it out of the equation.

Never mind that, just look at the shavings, straight, burnished, greasy, crinkled, for an idea of what an influenced shaving looks like.
Then look at the work, or for a surprise, look at the work of the hardest examples of tricky grain you can find, for a glass like finish. (chatoyance)

Whether that's your bag or not, is not the important part.
Being able to plane timbers without tearing out is.

I've tried to demonstrate this in a normal occurrence for me, some knotty pitch pine
and some of my iroko, but I obviously failed.
No mad sharpening either, if it cuts hair its good enough, and if relying on sharpness for this technique, the cap iron isn't having enough influence.
I like mine honed just over 50 degrees, like in the photo what Adam posted from some old book, the steeper this is honed at, the further it can be set away from the edge.

Thinner panels are a perfect example though, in that you likely need to take a light cut
to suit the close set cap iron, should you have less than easy working timbers.

I think for anyone who want's to get the best out of their plane, and is planing thinner stock, will find anything which will deflect the work a hindrance, i.e wedges or dogs bending the work.
should they need to use a fine shaving like above, as pressing down on the work
to keep it in the cut will likely break the finer shaving of the smoother plane, leaving a lump which might cause some to advance the cut, 
and thus have a horrible time trying to plane using the cap iron to its potential, or it just not working.



Maybe you folks would like to see both the winding sticks and a flat bench approach?
Well I haven't seen Brain do any checks on the bench, clickedy clacks or pivoting,
but reckon the technique might be in some more of his videos.


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## Linus (30 Dec 2021)

Sorry, Ttrees, I'm afraid I still don't follow. Could you possibly explain what an influenced shaving is in simple terms that I can understand?


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Linus said:


> Sorry, Ttrees, I'm afraid I still don't follow. Could you possibly explain what an influenced shaving is in simple terms that I can understand?


I can try, the straight shavings is the best indicator of the cap iron working to its potential.
Taking a fully influenced shaving is guaranteed not to tear out the grain.

I mostly use three planes, a beater plane with a bit of camber for hogging off material,
and two other planes that take an influenced shaving
(5 1/2 and a smoother)

Maybe Adam has a better word for this in his book rather than influence,
I've certainly not heard of a better description.
Possibly stems from this old video


One could try finding some Graham Blackburn articles to see what he says.
I've heard of "type two" shavings talked about before, but have heard that is strictly concerning fine shavings only?

Ya'll probably read David's article before on the subject before...




__





Setting a Cap Iron






www.woodcentral.com




He has videos on the subject too,
Should be able to see with your own eyes, if anyone still thinks this is bull.



Tom


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

Is that me you're refering to Tom, or another Adam ?


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Yes, you shared a piccy from an old book, unless it's some new publication
and the dog just spilled tea over it.
Did it give much of a clue, or did it just refer to that as smoothing, a smoother shaving, finish shaving?
Be interesting to know what the book was, might have been told already, but I have a head like a sieve.

Tom


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## thikone (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Winding sticks take seconds to use! Absolutely basic essential bit of kit and used everywhere. You really are missing out if you don't use them. Make your own - just a couple of laths planed precisely to same height. Or three can be useful. You can buy them but that is just for the feeble minded!



When I was learning how to plane I read and saw a lot about winding sticks and was going to make some, of course. But when I built my workbench 100+ kg and flattened the top with #7 it turned out so great that I used it to check other surfaces for flatness. It also takes seconds to use. I just have to flip the board and remove any shavings or dust from underneath. I think my fingers can feel it better if there is any rocking, better than my eyes would see out of parallel winding sticks. Am I alone in using this technique? Is it less efficient than winding sticks still? I've hear some people say they use cast iron table top of a table saw to check for flatness, but I think those who do rarely plane anything by hand...


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

@Ttrees I'll see if I can find what you're refering to, then.

That dog is always clumsy when he's got a cup of tea, so we try to encourage him to drink coffee instead.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I can try, the straight shavings is the best indicator of the cap iron working to its potential.
> Taking a fully influenced shaving is guaranteed not to tear out the grain.
> 
> I mostly use three planes, a beater plane with a bit of camber for hogging off material,
> ...



I think the notion of "reference surface" has slipped in from engineering and metal work - I'd never heard of it until I came on to chat groups.
Never heard of "type 2" shavings or "influenced" shavings - until today!
Never watched Daves vids on setting up planes nor read his article.
Never achieved "through" shavings except by chance.
Somehow think I've not missed anything much. Could be wrong, too old to change anything now!
I'll just carry on, head down brain off as usual.

PS winding sticks are just a fundamental, DIY, simple, cheap, highly effective tool. I don't see the point of struggling to manage without them - which is a new idea for me too and I'm not going to try it!
What about having a go at things with one hand tied behind your back? Does anybody do this? I'll report back later and do a vid!


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

thikone said:


> I've hear some people say they use cast iron table top of a table saw to check for flatness, but I think those who do rarely plane anything by hand...



If you've got one why not use it? if you've gotta make small things/jigs extremely accurately or efficiently.
I spend more time on that sort of stuff than any woodworking.
Only just bought a 2 meter fancy level milled on both edges, partly to keep my not so temporary bench in check, as making bits from offcuts can bite you in the arese sometimes.
The vernier caliper tells all, often more so than an engineers square, without having to read it.
Then the granite block may make sense.


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Dec 2021)

Linus said:


> Sorry, Ttrees, I'm afraid I still don't follow. Could you possibly explain what an influenced shaving is in simple terms that I can understand?



Me neither! I can't see any description in any of the posts of the shaving itself, and what constitutes an influenced shaving vs an uninfluenced shaving.


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

The shaving jumping out of the plane is what you're looking for,
note that it stays straight, and doesn't curl.
Have a watch of this guy, Dusty splinters

Kees who I believe has a lot on the subject,

Or even Mr Chickadee


Richard Mcguire, and only one or two others you will find.
Derek Cohen has some good stuff on the subject should you look.
One could say Cosman too, but it's clear that there isn't enough influence on some stock,
as he promotes certain tools for the job, like high angle or back bevels,
rather than teaching how to get by just fine without super edges, or spare irons.
It would be a harder sell if one had to demonstrate sharp chisels,
and compete with a cheap strop.

You should be able to see some damage to the shavings I have, might leave a hair of a line, but the plane still works regarding not getting tearout.
If one is relying on going back to that super edge for tearout elimination, then there's not enough influence of the cap iron, so needs to be closer or steeper.
Note Kees and Cosman are likely some of the only people I know to have the cap honed at lower angles.
I'd have to set my smoothers cap too close for my timbers, if I did that, as it wouldn't allow for any minute camber cuz it would overshoot on the corners.

Having it further away means it's less likely to get damaged.
Makes sense to hone at 50somethin
Whether, I'm actually at 50somethin is another matter, taking the hump out of the equation, I just eyeball the flat section and pay no heed to the curved bit.

If the cap wont pair with the iron well, and the iron is flat,
then use the corner of a hone or a strip of very fine abrasive, and hone the middle a little so it's flat.
Full length strokes afterwards will have two points of contact instead of one,
This should only take a stroke or two to get it bang on.

Hopefully that answers that, whether it's necessary to bring it up is another matter,
which we don't know is relevant or not 
Just making the point that working on thin difficult timber species adds more
things to the equation, which may or may not be in any courses, be it online or somewhere else.
All this might be a consideration for the OP, in regards to the type of work one wants to do.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> The shaving jumping out of the plane is what you're looking for,
> note that it stays straight, and doesn't curl.
> Have a watch of this guy, Dusty splinters
> 
> ...



I see what you mean by "through" shavings - it's what you get from the edge of a board, especially with easy wood like poplar.
Normal really, I get them all the time! But not so often from the face of a board.
Can't say I'm bothered whether they are straight or curly, in fact I've never given it a thought.


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I see what you mean by "through" shavings - it's what you get from the edge of a board, especially with easy wood like poplar.
> Normal really, I get them all the time! But not so often from the face of a board.
> Can't say I'm bothered whether they are straight or curly, in fact I've never given it a thought.



Interesting comment Jacob.
Whether the term through shaving and influenced shaving are interchangable
is kind of a grey area to me.
Through unbroken shavings with less infulence, seem to work in Rob's favour, Follansbee's, my case for the chopped ash rounds which might make nice boxes.

I've messed about going steeper with the cap, but never gave it the chance,
as I had it too close, just like I was used to with 50somethin.
Very immediate light to heavy shaving, (at the distance I'd been using for 50)
Warren Mickley's been using this technique since 1980's and works by hand
for money.
He recommends going very steep, not knowing what sort of plane, (could be woodies with thick irons?)
wood (dry or wet?), nor type of work he's producing,(need for hefty removal or small stuff?) hard to know if that is also suitable for myself to give another shot.
I just know what works for me, if it doesn't and I get tearout, it's only a case that I don't have enough influence.

Tom


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Me neither! I can't see any description in any of the posts of the shaving itself, and what constitutes an influenced shaving vs an uninfluenced shaving.



Plane a shaving about 3 thousandths thick. Notice that it curls up in a tight spiral and sits inside of the plane (if it's good wood). It's been severed from the surface of a board without anything holding it down.

Set the cap iron close enough so that it is exerting some force on the shaving (which will be needed if it has the strength to lift out like a splinter and then break off below the surface progressively as you plane (this is tearout - the shaving lifts and nothing keeps it from lifting in the grain below the cut level).

when the shaving is influenced by the cap iron, it will be bent past the point that it just springs back and will come out of a plane flat or showing that it's been bent. This change indicates that the cap iron was pushing back on the shaving so that at it would be held down to the wood for the plane iron to cut it flush with the surface without anything breaking and lifting out.



This is a heavier shaving as I was planing stock for moulding, but this is the type of work where the cap iron is most useful (not smoothing, but the moderate work to a mark with a slightly heavier shaving - it's also useful for smoothing, of course, and saves time with both, but this step is where it saves the most).

Notice how the shaving is straight in sections - the cap iron has altered the shaving where it was forced into the cap (but the alteration happens after the shaving is severed, so the surface is still clear.

Power planers with back knives do the exact same thing as this, but most people don't really gather what they're doing or why - the same thing is done all over the place in woodworking where tearout control is wanted but without having to take all of the poor compromises that come along with scraping in great volumes or planing with very high angles.

(I found another picture that illustrates this well - a very heavy shaving of curly maple - no tearout, no interruptions - I think most people who don't work entirely by hand for some period will never really get that good with planes. If you try to do neat work and work entirely by hand, it will be almost impossible to not get good at this stuff as it leads to completing work with more pleasure, with less effort, with less ruined materials and no marks missed. 



but at the same time, no limit on just how nasty wood can be with standard planes). 

It also eliminates the need to waste money on all of the gimmicks (scraping planes, high angle planes, modern infills, etc). 

The vintage infills generally are set and work identically to a common stanley plane. If they're not being set the same way (they have cap irons and have the inside of the sole filed so that they can be set close to prevent tearout), then a lot of the planes' capabilities are being left behind and time is wasted.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

To the OP, using hand planes in actual work and not defaulting back to power tools is what will make you good with them quickly. There are two things you need to do (and all of the other details are secondary). 

1) learn to sharpen reliably and quickly in a way that the plane iron both holds up well and has enough clearance (this isn't' that tall of an order, but when you're not hitting it every time, it is. Charlesworth's video with a three bevel system is a very good place to start, and you can move away from it to gain speed as you get better at things). Charlesworth's method gives you results and the hardware used to do it isn't very expensive (eclipse style guide- any of them). 

2) if you're going to do much planing with modern lumber, you need to learn the cap iron second for everything sometimes (as in even needed for the roughest of work on very bad wood), and for middle and smoothing work otherwise. 

If you learn 1 and 2, you will be able to use inexpensive planes to plane anything -better and faster and with better results than the typical hobbyist will use very expensive planes. 

It's using the tools as they're designed to be used that's important, and not so much whether it's cosman or sellers, etc, as neither of those guys teaches a very complete (they're overwrought playing with bits of the planes that make no difference) or accurate view of planing. 

Once you get through 1 and 2 above, you can more or less start to focus on actual planing of wood (if you want to do a lot of it) - which is generally a matter of not wasting energy or motion when planing, or getting stuck in prescriptive methods besides loose rules. Nicholson's texts have a breif discussion of planing (I can't remember which as I didn't learn from them, but their description is accurate). You plane the high spots off of a board so that you can plane continuous through shavings, and generally with the grain (and not across it) where possible.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Can't say I'm bothered whether they are straight or curly, in fact I've never given it a thought.



This is not surprising.


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## GerryT (30 Dec 2021)

I’m at a loss here as to what an “influenced shaving” is.
Surely the term influence in the title of the older video above is applied to the position of the cap iron to the iron and it is this that has an “influence” upon the timber being planed and producing a shaving of some type.
Either close or not so close depending on the timber or type of surface required.

Anyone new to this forum would think that simply planing a piece of timber to flat and square needs a PhD in either maths or metallurgy.
Its no real surprise that folk come on here and lack the confidence to sharpen and plane because they are getting the impression that it’s some recondite art that only the chosen can do.

Sure, we can understand that the placement of cap iron on an iron can “influence“ the type of shaving that you can get but the shaving itself is not called an “influenced shaving”…or am I missing something ?


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

I think it's just someones hobby, which they like to talk about all the time.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

GerryT said:


> I’m at a loss here as to what an “influence shaving” is.
> Surely the term influence in the title of the older video above is applied to the position of the cap iron to the iron and it is this that has an “influence” upon the timber being planed and producing a shaving of some type.
> Either close or not so close depending on the timber or type of surface required.
> 
> ...



Part of the problem is all of the gadgetry and trinkets being used (and paint by number methods). 

You sharpen a plane iron. If the wood is very agreeable, then cap iron setting doesn't matter -you just plane down grain. 

More common in modern lumber that's just sawn flat off of a cant, there will be opposing grain somewhere. So you set the cap iron in the middle and fine work so that it holds the shaving down against the face of a board. You literally then plane the high spots off of a board (with short strokes, working just those spots) and take overlapping through shavings. That's it. When you have overlapping through shavings end to end and side to side, you know that you have a planed surface that's going to be relatively clear. 

Other than that, it's just a matter of how much planing you have to do before you hit a depth mark. 

The use of winding sticks and other things is relatively infrequent as it slows things down. A wider board can be seen well by eye, and even a narrower one can - it is a skill to learn. Joints and edges of boards are planed until they're true to the plane and they will generally be ready for glue without anything else. To do this right is much simpler than most of the overwrought methods taught to beginners. 

For cap iron setting, for people who need to measure things, getting in the ballpark of where a cap is set right, you aim for twice as far from the edge of an iron as the shaving thickness. That's about where the shaving will come straight out of a plane. Depending on the wood 

It's not necessarily that easy to explain just how simple this is because of how much overwrought stop and start checking there is in most planing instruction.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I think it's just someones hobby, which they like to talk about all the time.



I think someone doesn't know what they're talking about, but they're going to "school" to woodwork and think they're an authority. If it wasn't a significant issue, nicholson wouldn't have talked about it and more expensive double iron planes wouldn't have replaced single iron planes. 

But, show them your degree when they ask about your bona fides. I'm sure that will impress someone. Because, I know when I work with clients day to day, I tell them all about my credentials rather than what I've got experience with and where I see potential areas of improvement for them.


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

GerryT said:


> I’m at a loss here as to what an “influenced shaving” is.
> Surely the term influence in the title of the older video above is applied to the position of the cap iron to the iron and it is this that has an “influence” upon the timber being planed and producing a shaving of some type.
> Either close or not so close depending on the timber or type of surface required.
> 
> ...



Sounds to me like you've described things perfectly GerryT
I think newcomers would do well to be reading these forums, as the guru's drip feed system has likely gotten old for them and led those to this place.

Until I get a better description for a smoother shaving in difficult material, 
I will continue as others to use the scientific term from the video.
Think it was done a long time ago now, does that count as vintage?
Can we use the term by now?

Were not working Cuban mahogany or clear timbers like in the days many of the 
go to's of old were written.
I believe those guides would have more on the subject if things weren't so hand to mouth.
That's two small reasons I can give as to why this doesn't have much mention in historical terms.

Fair I think to give someone a chance to learn, and seek all options,
should they have placed a foot on a few paths already.

I don't believe this to be as complicated as the folks are making it out to be, 
but my writing could likely be better.


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

No, for most people it's not complicated or scientific, but some just love to pretend that they know best and play guru.

Just smile and nod and skip the posts.


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## Jameshow (30 Dec 2021)

To me it's just practice. 

Firstly to sharpen the blade. 

Secondly take small amounts off, you cannot put it back on but you can take it off further, 

Thirdly if it's not cutting correctly stop and ask myself what's the problem? what have I done differently, what's different about the timber? 

Forthly try and remember what I did previously and get back up to speed if I've been away from the bench, any length of time. 

Fifty if it isn't happening go and have a break and come back to it, something is often on my mind that's stops me from good woodworking....


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

If you go into enough detail the simplest things can be made to seem really difficult.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> To me it's just practice.
> 
> Firstly to sharpen the blade.
> 
> ...


Yebbut that's all very well - how curly are your shavings?


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Dec 2021)

GerryT said:


> Anyone new to this forum would think that simply planing a piece of timber to flat and square needs a PhD in either maths or metallurgy.
> Its no real surprise that folk come on here and lack the confidence to sharpen and plane because they are getting the impression that it’s some recondite art that only the chosen can do.



Very much this. For woodworking I am a hobbyist; I make things that I'll either like making or will like once made. I use hand tools and machines and have some gadgets, and the navel-gazing and air-of-authority posts definitely push me towards the machines and gadgets because they give the impression that my approach to hand tools - sharpen them with the sharpening stuff I have until they work well enough for what I'm doing - is akin to being a Neanderthal just smashing one rock into another and shouting "UG" at passing clouds.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> .........
> Maybe you folks would like to see both the winding sticks and a flat bench approach?
> Well I haven't seen Brain do any checks on the bench, clickedy clacks or pivoting,
> but reckon the technique might be in some more of his videos.


Brain seems to be planing away without reference to the flatness of the bench! How can this be?
He's got the hang of winding sticks for twist and for hollows though he does seem to taking them a bit seriously.
Big plane for a little piece of wood.
He talks too much and is probably over thinking it.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Brain seems to be planing away without reference to the flatness of the bench! How can this be?
> He's got the hang of winding sticks for twist and for hollows though he does seem to taking them a bit seriously.
> Big plane for a little piece of wood.











Gallery of Original Furniture Designs by Brian Holcombe Woodworker


Tour the original furniture designs of Brian Holcombe Woodworker featuring cabinetry, beds, dining tables, credenzas, chairs and more.




brianholcombewoodworker.com





I don't think you'd want to get into any kind of contest with brian in making things out of wood, but you could probably paint faster. Brian is probably being deliberate for demonstration - don't know. 

The plane is what anyone would've used for pre-smoothing work on a panel until power planers were common. 20-24 inches or so for a try or long plane, then smoother.

The idea that this is territory for a smoother or jack plane is modern goofiness.

I know who made the plane that he's using.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Very much this. For woodworking I am a hobbyist; I make things that I'll either like making or will like once made. I use hand tools and machines and have some gadgets, and the navel-gazing and air-of-authority posts definitely push me towards the machines and gadgets because they give the impression that my approach to hand tools - sharpen them with the sharpening stuff I have until they work well enough for what I'm doing - is akin to being a Neanderthal just smashing one rock into another and shouting "UG" at passing clouds.



I think you're overinterpreting the actual users of hand tools. The actual use is sharpen tool, set tool, plane wood. The long routines or gobs of specialty tools are modern hobbyist nonsense. The idea that features were added to planes (like cap irons) aren't are esoteric is also modern nonsense, but that one's got a strong following because people like paul sellers or rob cosman (and the entirety of lee valley) avoid discussion of it. 

Interestingly, the last french planemaker that I saw a video of (on youtube) from around 1980 made a fairly fast plane and put the plane together and instantly shot a shaving straight up out of the plane. 

What's really popular on forums is for some people who have little (this isn't you, by the way) experience using hand tools for much neat work making grand claims about how simple things are for them, and their advice leaves people who actually want to do nice work simply in the lurch. It is maybe a little boring to hear that one set of chisels, a jack, try/jointer and smoothing plane and a pair of stones is enough to do just about everything planing flat (and on any wood practical, or even impractical to work) - maybe that has something to do with it. That excludes for purposes of any practical gain anything more modern than a stanley 4, expensive sharpening stones, ruler tricks, etc. Simply using the basic function of a double iron plane is all that's needed.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> ...... the navel-gazing and air-of-authority posts .....


The would-be-gurus tend to want to _own_ the territory but can safely be ignored!
They spread a lot of confusion and we see far more misled guru victims than gurus.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> No, for most people it's not complicated or scientific, but some just love to pretend that they know best and play guru.
> 
> Just smile and nod and skip the posts.



Show them your B.A. and tell them you just want adulation!!


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> Show them your B.A. and tell them you just want adulation!!


Whatever you say Bubba.


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Brain seems to be planing away without reference to the flatness of the bench! How can this be?
> He's got the hang of winding sticks for twist and for hollows though he does seem to taking them a bit seriously.
> Big plane for a little piece of wood.
> He talks too much and is probably over thinking it.



Note that the bench is flat, and the big blue spirit level in the background.
I haven't watched the video through, just identified a well working plane.
All I can say is I'll flip the timber if I get a shadow line under the work, and make it sit right, note the appearance of that shadow line on the left, could well be caused by the work being held with the dogs, and thus the timber lifting on the left hand side.

I use a simple batton/cleat in front of the work, and if very wide or many wideish pieces maybe something to the back side of the bench, never anything behind needed.
The planes will cut in both grain directions, so no need to swap directions to suit any grain, as any rough cambered plane has been used beforehand will have followed it favourably, no need for a scrub plane for what I do.

No planing across the grain, just diagonally if twist is apparent.
Maybe I'll get lazy and use dogs someday, until then I'll use my methods,
but that will only be after planing as I do now, and getting the board flat in the first place.
as I can't flip the work if it's held.


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

Anyway. 

@Ttrees I think it might have been an article from that bijou kumbaya carpentry mag that I get from the states.

I'll dig it out later after tea.


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## Jameshow (30 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> To me it's just practice.
> 
> Firstly to sharpen the blade.
> 
> ...


Yea forgot to say I mostly work on a workmate.....!


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> ........
> All I can say is I'll flip the timber if I get a shadow line under the work, ......


All I'm saying is that you don't need to flip the wood over, unless it's really rocky then a wedge or a bit of clamping might help. You work on the chosen first face, then the edges, then the back.
Brain isn't flipping it. Cosman's vid is about prepping for the thicknesser with a bit of hand planing, which he does perfectly well on a loose board. He could hand finish the side he started on without flipping it.
I'd try and forget about the "reference surface" idea if I were you, though it comes in handy sometimes.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Yea forgot to say I mostly work on a workmate.....!


Well don't tell the others!


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

@Jameshow Now you've done it !


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Seemed possibly the best written historical record of folks suggesting to use if it is.
Likely in the archives.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Anyway.
> 
> @Ttrees I think it might have been an article from that bijou kumbaya carpentry mag that I get from the states.
> 
> I'll dig it out later after tea.



You guys all have better advice than Nicholson. You're savants! Plus, Nicholson probably wasn't a masters student or a political expert, so what would he have known.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Yea forgot to say I mostly work on a workmate.....!



What's wrong with a workmate to start? If it slides, clamp a board under it and butt the board end against the wall.


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> All I'm saying is that you don't need to flip the wood over, unless it's really rocky then a wedge or a bit of clamping might help. You work on the chosen first face, then the edges, then the back.
> Brain isn't flipping it. Cosman's vid is about prepping for the thicknesser with a bit of hand planing, which he does perfectly well on a loose board. He could hand finish the side he started on without flipping it.
> I'd try and forget about the "reference surface" idea if I were you, though it comes in handy sometimes.


Show me an example of what you say on video, the flat bench method is a lot faster and easier and requires no skill to learn.
Just a long straight edge to make a straight surface, cleat on the end, and 3 planes for anyone who wants an easy life.

Pity Cosman doesn't do a retake of rough to ready, his methods using the bench is the fastest way, use the winding sticks if you like the other techniques are utilized if you look.
Charlesworth mentions them should I need to get some snippets from youtube, same deal.
Combine using the cap iron and it's about as good as you can progress planing flat timber without faff.


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## Cabinetman (30 Dec 2021)

@D_W was that you in the plane/ cap iron video attributed it to David W a couple of pages back?
The video made in Japan was very interesting but totally frustrating in not being able to understand what they’re saying lol, would’ve liked to have seen that set up extended to show the front of the mouth of the plane holding the timber down and changing the distance from there to the blade. Ian


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> You guys all have better advice than Nicholson. You're savants! Plus, Nicholson probably wasn't a masters student or a political expert, so what would he have known.


He wasn't an american amateur occasional woodworker either
Nicholson doesn't say much about cap irons, just in a brief sentence that they can be set back a bit for easy stuff. Which we all know.


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

He could write legibly though.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> What's wrong with a workmate to start? If it slides, clamp a board under it and butt the board end against the wall.


Well done D_W that seems to be the first bit of useful advice ever coming from you!  A first!! It's been a long wait!
Better still is to clamp a biggish joist between the work mate jaws, jam this against the wall and use the joist as the workbench, like a Japanese planing beam. Good for site work too.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Show me an example of what you say on video, the flat bench method is a lot faster and easier and requires no skill to learn.....


It can't be faster and easier than not doing it! If you can plane at all you can plane a surface flat on the ordinary way like everybody else. You've been listening to too many gurus!


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> He wasn't an american amateur occasional woodworker either
> Nicholson doesn't say much about cap irons, just in a brief sentence that they can be set back a bit for easy stuff. Which we all know.



I don't think you read Nicholson.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> I don't think you read Nicholson.


Well you obviously haven't.
I've got it in front of me. See page 92. There are other notes about facing/shooting etc but I can't see any other comments about cap irons.
It's a very good book, get yourself a copy D_W The Mechanic's Companion by Nicholson, Peter Book The Cheap Fast Free Post New 9780983150008 | eBay


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

What's the title of the volume?


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## Cabinetman (30 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> @D_W was that you in the plane/ cap iron video attributed it to David W a couple of pages back?
> The video made in Japan was very interesting but totally frustrating in not being able to understand what they’re saying lol, would’ve liked to have seen that set up extended to show the front of the mouth of the plane holding the timber down and changing the distance from there to the blade. Ian


 I think you must’ve missed this David


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> It can't be faster and easier than not doing it! If you can plane at all you can plane a surface flat on the ordinary way like everybody else. You've been listening to too many gurus!


You're gonna have to prove me wrong on that.
I thought you'd jump straight to Follansbee and pick out a video, instead youd rather speculate .
If you could find something which might retain 4 corners that would be great.

I'm not saying I'm an expert, just as easy for anyone should they try, but for anything benchsized and somewhat manageable using the bench instead of winding sticks and a straight edge looks like a tedious process from every video I've ever seen on the matter.
Not saying I'd be as quick as others when planing much beyond the bench, say a big 20foot column...if there was only one.
Flat bench principal can be utilised for more.


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## jcassidy (30 Dec 2021)

Getting well of topic here lads, and spoiling the thread. Admins could delete the last dozen posts and no loss.

@ArtieFufkin in the absence of courses, you could do worse than dropping into the local mens shed, altough you still run the risk of running into another bunch of cantankerous opinionated old men. 

Other than that,
A) work on your sharpening skills (I can just about get to the 'shaving hair' level if I take sufficient care),
B) maybe it's the wood you're using (I use a lot of cheap soft wood and there's no comparision to quality hard wood)
C) _stop screwing about with the setup of the plane, i.e. you should never have to adjust the frog._
in respect of members vastly more existing than i, I withdraw this opinionated bit!


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## Adam W. (30 Dec 2021)

Chaps, please.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> You're gonna have to prove me wrong on that.
> I thought you'd jump straight to Follansbee and pick out a video, instead youd rather speculate .
> .......


No speculation involved I've been planing bits of wood for 50 years or more.
Flat bench obviously useful yes but the reference plate idea belongs to engineering not woodwork.


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## Cabinetman (30 Dec 2021)

jcassidy said:


> Getting well of topic here lads, and spoiling the thread. Admins could delete the last dozen posts and no loss.
> 
> @ArtieFufkin in the absence of courses, you could do worse than dropping into the local mens shed, altough you still run the risk of running into another bunch of cantankerous opinionated old men.
> 
> ...


Cantankerous, quite possibly, opinionated? Well I do have an opinion and I have an opinion about never adjusting the frog, dear god, I am not even going to try to educate you.


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## baldkev (30 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Yea forgot to say I mostly work on a workmate.....!


Whats his name? And how do you keep him still enough? Most of my workmates would get a bit narky if started clamping bits of wood to them or using them as benches


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## paulrbarnard (30 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Cantankerous, quite possibly, opinionated? Well I do have an opinion and I have an opinion about never adjusting the frog, dear god, I am not even going to try to educate you.


I’ve never adjusted the frog on any of my infills, since making them anyway, and I adjust the mouth of my two low angle block planes not the frog. What’s your opinion on that? I actually only have two planes that have a frog that can be adjusted.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I think you must’ve missed this David



That was me though I'd make little out of ash that runs out as you can plane it, but it's coarse planing. The settings were a bit exaggerated...it should never really be that physically arduous. 

The Japanese video just talks about grain and surface quality, but the test is for the super surface, and there's a separate paper translated later where the professors prescribed hand plane setup. They basically said you set the cap iron in a hand plane and when the shaving shortens, it's set right. The shaving shortens when it's compressed and straightened. 

The mouth opening is minimally effective compared to a cap. I tried this by making two infills- one with a 55 degree iron and 4 thousandths mouth for smoothing and a panel plane for coarser work with a .011 mouth (48 degree bed).

The smoother was effective but the shaving has to be half of the aperture, and that means a plane with limited capability. The mouth on the panel plane was better than nothing but not close in ease and control to the cap iron and I eventually refiled the inside of the mouth to accept a close cap and the plane was much better. I think once you get larger apertures like a hundredth or larger, the shaving gets long enough to tear below the surface ahead of the iron and the cap holding the shaving down is far more effective. 

The function of the panel plane was surprisingly poor with a tight mouth on glued panels. 

That plane and a very good vintage single iron jointer drove me to figure out the cap iron to be able to drop using power tools on hardwoods. We still try to get ideal quality wood if it's available but fas cherry here still often has reversing in it.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2021)

New Years eve Celebrity Sewing Bee is over. Few! Very jolly!  I fancied her done up as a pig in blankets! Very clever.

I'm in the keep your hands off your frog camp. Just get it lined up dead with the mouth so that the blade gets max support.
Just having a look in Moxon to see what he says about cap irons but they don't get a mention. Were they invented back then 1700 ish?
There's lots of other amazingly detailed explanations in there, as with Nicholson, well worth rummaging through. No mention of curly shavings anywhere!
Could do with a modern typeset version with a proper index. He refers to paring chisels also as "pairing" chisels to help jointing boards i.e. pairing them together.
No mention of Ttree's "reference" surfaces, nor in any other woodwork book I've ever read. I think there's a very simple explanation for this, which is that a lot of woodwork is done by "sighting" rather than reference to flat surfaces, long straightedges, or other precision gadgets which cost a bomb. Long straight edge more likely to be a chalk line anyway - just a piece of string.


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## D_W (30 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> You obviously haven't.
> I've got it in front of me. See page 92. There are other notes about facing/shooting etc but I can't see any other comments about cap irons.
> It's a very good book, get...copy D_W The Mechanic's Companion by Nicholson, Peter Book The Cheap Fast Free Post New 9780983150008 | eBay



I have a pdf reference that has more text than that about proper setup of a plane, but I've solved a problem that is supposed about clogs, so it's not perfect. From mathieson and Griffiths planes that I have, they did too. I'm away from my PC but will see if I can find the text in a day or two. 

I made the comment about shavings straightening. Later, I found out the professors in Japan made a reference for hand planes and noticed they talked about shavings shortening. I never read this stuff in Nicholson. I figured it out in isolation and people who like to read before trying kept pointing me to Nicholson. 

In the end, I learned one thing about jack planing efficiency from Nicholson, but you can just figure out this stuff on your own by planing a few hundred or thousand board feet of hardwoods.


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## hennebury (31 Dec 2021)

Just a little video I made some years back whilst playing with the blade relief angle,
And phots of playing around with the throat opening.



















From the chipbreaker video








playing with a Supersurfacer








one of the double head supersurfacers that i rebuilt


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Just a little video I made some years back whilst playing with the blade relief angle,
> And phots of playing around with the throat opening.
> 
> View attachment 125473
> ...



What is "blade relief angle"?


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> I have a pdf reference that has more text than that about proper setup of a plane, but I've solved a problem that is supposed about clogs, so it's not perfect. From mathieson and Griffiths planes that I have, they did too. I'm away from my PC but will see if I can find the text in a day or two.


I wouldn't waste your time searching Nicholson he wrote 20 or more books and I doubt he has anything else to say about cap irons beyond the brief note in "Mechanics Companion" lets face it there is nothing much more to say.
What was the clogs problem? Can't say I've ever had it, or are you talking about about footwear? Does Nicholson mention clogs?


> .......
> In the end, I learned one thing about jack planing efficiency from Nicholson, but you can just figure out this stuff on your own by planing a few hundred or thousand board feet of hardwoods.


What did you make with this few thousand board feet? I hope it wasn't just shavings. The Pennsylvania shavings mountain?
Seems to be an unhealthy interest in shavings amongst the enthusiasts! Something macho about the ones which pop out stiff and vertically, as compared to the thin short and curlies? I'm beginning to see them in a new light, shavings as a special interest area in their own right. I'm going to get my vernier callipers out.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2021)

OK I got "blade relief angle" I googled it and came up with this great pudding of superfluous information Rob Cosman | Secrets of Sharpening | Bevel Angles and Blade Geometry
The last sentence is interesting:
_Over time as you keep sharpening your blade you will continually reduce this clearance angle, finally reaching the point when either the blade wont bite into the wood or your secondary bevel is so large that its taking you too long to sharpen. When this happens, it is time to go to the grinder and re-establish your 25 degree primary bevel and start the process all over again._
This is what beginners and school kids do. 
It doesn't happen under the rounded bevel freehand traditional method as shown by Sellers and others and means you can manage without a grinder altogether - there is no progressive change if you freehand a little and often.


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## Blackswanwood (31 Dec 2021)

I wonder if the OP has found this thread useful in demystifying set up, sharpening and use of hand planes?


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## Peter Sefton (31 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK I got "blade relief angle" I googled it and came up with this great pudding of superfluous information Rob Cosman | Secrets of Sharpening | Bevel Angles and Blade Geometry
> 
> It doesn't happen under the rounded bevel freehand traditional method as shown by Sellers and others and means you can manage without a grinder altogether - there is no progressive change if you freehand a little and often.



Just not true I am afraid, I had a student on one of my short courses who had a sharp plane blade which had been sharpened using the rounded bevel method after watching your guru Jacob.

It would not plane as the rounded bevel was rubbing in the timbers surface as there was no clearance angle.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> Just not true I am afraid, I had a student on one of my short courses who had a sharp plane blade which had been sharpened using the rounded bevel method after watching your guru Jacob.
> 
> It would not plane as the rounded bevel was rubbing in the timbers surface as there was no clearance angle.


Well he wasn't doing it properly. You still have to use your brain a bit.
You hit the stone at 30º and advance it vigorously forwards dipping slightly as you go *lowering the angle*, and repeat. "Vigorously" is the operative word and why it is so fast.
At no point does the blade angle exceed 30º.
*Rounding over* is what kids do. What competent freehand sharpeners do could be called 'rounding under' but who needs another confusing technical term!  
It's very simple and easy.


Blackswanwood said:


> I wonder if the OP has found this thread useful in demystifying set up, sharpening and use of hand planes? ￼ ￼


I doubt it! I'm losing the will to live myself!
Interesting diversion into Nicholson and Moxon - they really are interesting and packed with information. Should keep D_W busy and out of harms way while he frantically searches for more illumination on cap iron science! 
Nicholson has 28 titles apparently, I'd love to collect them but must desist.


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## bp122 (31 Dec 2021)

I suspect the OP hasn't even seen my offer after he was put off by the rest of the stuff. He probably left the forum and sold his tools and taken up fishing, or golf!

Or has flown to Australia to watch the remaining Ashes tests!


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## GerryT (31 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> Just not true I am afraid, I had a student on one of my short courses who had a sharp plane blade which had been sharpened using the rounded bevel method after watching your guru Jacob.
> 
> It would not plane as the rounded bevel was rubbing in the timbers surface as there was no clearance angle.



I don’t doubt your word here Peter but it’s never been my experience with so called rounded bevels.
Nor I would imagine has it been Paul Sellers experience either, who I suspect you refer to as “Jacob’s guru”.
For the bevel to rub on the timber as you describe then surely the bevel would have to be truly rounded to a very large degree, something that by sharpening freehand following “Seller’s“ method you shouldn’t get.
I would agree that if it was heavily rounded leaving no clearance then maybe you would get the effect you describe but it shouldn’t be heavily “rounded“ in the first place.
Rounded bevel is the wrong term anyway as it gives the impression that it’s truly rounded which it isn’t .

IMHO it shouldn’t be referred to as Seller‘s method either as it has been done from time immemorial long before Sellers appeared.

I sharpen irons with all sorts of methods but its hard to beat the speed of freehand and we all know that the bevel doesn’t need to be surgically flat to work properly.

Again we have a simple initial thread opening question and it’s become overgrown with things totally peripheral to the original poster.
Is any surprise that people give up trying working with wood because the impression is given that sharpening is so complex .


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> ....
> Nor I would imagine has it been Paul Sellers experience either, who I suspect you refer to as “Jacob’s guru”.


Not my guru - the "Sellers method" was what we learned at school when Sellers was just a little boy. He gets the credit because he produced a very clear video, though Peter has obviously not payed much attention to it!
Basically it's what everybody did everywhere, and mostly still do.


> .......
> Is any surprise that people give up trying working with wood because the impression is given that sharpening is so complex .


They even worry about what their shavings look like and start measuring them with vernier callipers! 

PS calling it "the rounded bevel method" is misleading - the slightly rounded bevel is just an incidental by product and not the object of the exercise - which is to get the job done quickly and easily.


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## Adam W. (31 Dec 2021)

@GerryT Yes, but for some it's like a religion and full of dogma.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> I wonder if the OP has found this thread useful in demystifying set up, sharpening and use of hand planes?



Come on now, this is the internet. You're imposing standards that are way too high.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> Just not true I am afraid, I had a student on one of my short courses who had a sharp plane blade which had been sharpened using the rounded bevel method after watching your guru Jacob.
> 
> It would not plane as the rounded bevel was rubbing in the timbers surface as there was no clearance angle.



Peter - people send me tools to fix or diagnose, and up to this point, every one that's had a rounded bevel was lacking sharpness except one, and the one that was fine in sharpness was lacking clearance. 

It's certainly possible to sharpen the way paul teaches, but most of his "students" don't execute it very well as I think they quick the grind part and then chase the bevel steeper when finishing to solve not grinding enough. 

Hurrying through sharpening to limit clearance (even if an iron cuts) is dippy - it cuts the edge life interval down to a fraction.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I wouldn't waste your time searching Nicholson he wrote 20 or more books and I doubt he has anything else to say about cap irons beyond the brief note in "Mechanics Companion" lets face it there is nothing much more to say.



You're in luck, as I'm on holiday and I don't have much at hand. Nicholson had comments about the cap iron and profiling it to match the iron, which has people dogearing their caps and I've seen no reason to do that. So it's not as if I agree with everything he says. The cap should match the plane sole profile, not the iron (so gutter planes would have a cap tracking the gutter, etc.). He may have felt there was a conceptual reason to profile the cap on a flat sole plane, but there isn't one in practice. 



> What was the clogs problem? Can't say I've ever had it, or are you talking about about footwear? Does Nicholson mention clogs?



Nicholson asserted that the plane iron should have the edges nipped so that the full width isn't cutting because there will be a problem with shavings clogging at the outside of the wedge fingers. However, that's not the case - it took me 1 plane as a maker to not have that problem. I've not actually ever made a double iron plane that clogged at the wedge fingers, but since Nicholson wrote it, it's a myth that persists and an american planemaker (larry williams) repeated it and other mythology about double iron planes. People are short on doing and long on reading, and will believe anything they read. None of the good English planes that I bought to learn the design of double iron planes had any issues with clogging at the wedge fingers - if it was a problem in Nicholson's time, it was solved by 1820. 



> I hope it wasn't just shavings. The Pennsylvania shavings mountain?
> Seems to be an unhealthy interest in shavings amongst the enthusiasts! Something macho about the ones which pop out stiff and vertically, as compared to the thin short and curlies? I'm beginning to see them in a new light, shavings as a special interest area in their own right. I'm going to get my vernier callipers out.



You do make up stories that fit what you want, Jacob. But, this goes along well with the fact that we've seen you post no neat work. I've posted a good bit of mine - not all of it is neat, some of it is. I think i'll wait for you to post lots of neat woodworking before I start moving things around in the house to take pictures of everything. 

The only person on this forum who has been in my shop is raffo - he can give you an idea of whether or not any of the stuff I say occurs in person or if I'm just making it up.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

OK, I didn't have the mechanick's friend PDF -it is public domain here









The Mechanic's Companion, Or, The Elements and Practice of Carpentry, Joinery, Bricklaying, Masonry, Slating, Plastering, Painting, Smithing, and Turning. And an Explanation of the Terms Used in Each Art, Also an Introduction to Practical Geometry -







play.google.com







> To prevent the iron from tearing the wood to cross grained stuff , a cover is used with a reversed basil , ( Pl . 12. Fig . 4. ) and fastened by means of a screw , the thin part of which slides in a longitudinal slit in the iron , and the head is taken out by a large hole near
> 
> the upper
> end of it . The lower edge of the cover is so formed , as to be concentric or parallel to the cutting edge of the iron , and fixed at a small distance above it , and to coincide entirely with the steel face . The basil of the cover must be rounded , and not flat , as that of the iron is . The distance between the cutting edge of the iron , and the edge of the cover , depends altogether on the nature of the stuff . If the stuff is free , the edge of the cover may be set at a considerable distance , because the difficulty of pushing the plane forward becomes greater , as the edge of the cover is nearer the edge of the iron , and the contrary when more remote .
> ...



The last line is partially false. If the corners enter the wood below the cut line, they do increase the amount of work since you're tearing wood instead of cutting it along the side of the iron - but the comment about planes clogging is false. 

At this point, you may be ready to make up fables about someone saying nicholson talked about flat shavings, but I've never seen anyone suggest that other than you. And you suggested someone else said it. A japanese paper by kato and kawai that wasn't translated until much later than the machine video shown talked about shavings being shorter when the cap iron is working well - that was their suggestion on setting a plane properly. Their words, not mine - it wasn't provided with the original cap iron stuff because nobody had translated it. The video and numerical figures and cap iron angles are intended for a planing machine, not for a hand plane used by a person. The cap iron should be rounded for someone working by hand, which is exactly what nicholson says (except I had never read nicholson - I did what's a bridge too far for many - I set up a few cap irons to figure out what works best, and then learned more along the way making planes - and making note of which vintage cap irons work best (least additional effort planing vs. tearout control - I don't expect anyone else to do that.

I made the comment that a shaving is worked when the cap iron is set right (on my own, before I ever saw anything of nicholson), and that if the shaving is wrinkled like an accordion, the cap iron is set too close. That's from my own work. I read nothing to learn to use the cap iron, just resolved that the planes that I mentioned earlier were failures if one is going to work wood entirely by hand. If you can chunk wood and get away with it for house work, then that's fine, but I'm hoping to work more to a standard like this for typical planed work.





without resorting to sanding to remove tearout. You should just be able to plane surfaces that clean as a matter of routine work, whether the wood is quartered beech or ideal pine (I don't work much with softwoods). If I made planes like the last picture and couldn't plane the surfaces of them to a finish (and had to sand or something), it would be a pretty poor statement. 

As to whether the shavings tell you anything, if they are not clear, they tell you that there is tearout. Chunked short shavings should be left behind after heavy jack work. It's more work to do this stuff poorly than it is to do it neatly.

You are among the folks on here who do a whole lot less by hand than you say - it's impossible to not notice the volume of work that you get done is poor if any hack and slash with planes and saws is OK. In your own posts on the hand tool forum, you admitted to relying almost entirely on machines for the last three decades.


----------



## Jacob (31 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> Peter - people send me tools to fix or diagnose, and up to this point, every one that's had a rounded bevel was lacking sharpness except one, and the one that was fine in sharpness was lacking clearance.


People who send you tools to fix or diagnose, obviously know FA about tools, so finding them faulty should be no surprise. Or to put it another way - if their tools were working well they wouldn't be sending them to you to remedy. Hope that helps


> It's certainly possible to sharpen the way paul teaches, but most of his "students" don't execute it very well as I think they quick the grind part and then chase the bevel steeper when finishing to solve not grinding enough.


How would you know? Have you spoken to any of them?


> Hurrying through sharpening to limit clearance (even if an iron cuts) is dippy - it cuts the edge life interval down to a fraction.


What does this mean? No don't answer that!


----------



## Jacob (31 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> .....
> 
> You are among the folks on here who do a whole lot less by hand than you say - it's impossible to not notice the volume of work that you get done is poor if any hack and slash with planes and saws is OK.


How would you know?


> In your own posts on the hand tool forum, you admitted to relying almost entirely on machines for the last three decades.


No I did not.
I 'admitted' to doing things entirely by hand for a few years at first. Not entirely true I had a band saw and later a little router. You have stupidly interpreted this as my "only" using machines after that.


> The nicholson section was a little bit longer than you suggested, huh?


Oh yes one short paragraph, not sentence. I described it as "a brief note".
Enough of this long winded dismal nonsense you are on ignore again. Tedious, I've got more interesting things to do.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> People who send you tools to fix or diagnose, obviously know FA about tools, so finding them faulty should be no surprise. Or to put it another way - if their tools were working well they wouldn't be sending them to you to remedy. Hope that helpsHow would you know? Have you spoken to any of them?What does this mean? No don't answer that!



It's not the iron that they're sending the tools to me for, it's the fit of the wedge or need to make a new wedge, or in some cases, the iron itself (later sheffield) is too low quality to be usable and they want the iron rehardened.

As far as how I would know what people are doing, I can see what they've done sharpening the irons - the whole bevel is honed but it's chased steep at the tip to try to finish it, and lack of clearance keeps the iron from cutting, just like peter described. 

I think you're going to keep turning the handle here until you get what you want out of this, but I'm still waiting for your pictures of neat work. 

Remember when I got an out of use jointer from the UK a couple of years ago, set it up in 20 minutes and fitted everything and you called it confusing? It's probably not been used in 100 years and suffered little planing tropical woods - I wonder if it just worked like that by chance when set up properly and quickly, or I just "applied too much dogma" and the parts on it were never intended to work that way. 

The latter seems unlikely. I'm sure I'm not the only person waiting for you to show actual work done entirely by hand and neatly - like something someone learning to plane might want to know. 

Planing properly is kind of like shooting a bow and arrow from the point. You can talk at length about things you might reference or see, but the actual act is simple. Everything that I mention is simple and the planing that follows is about as simple as shooting a bow and arrow well just shooting from the point. It's generally you or someone else who claims you have a simple (but generally low capability) set of instructions for someone. And if they're going to use mostly power tools and only plane a little, that's fine. If they're looking to use planes a lot, they're going to find your descriptions lacking, just as they'll find descriptions lacking from anyone wanting to dictate method instead of results. 

The nicholson section was a little bit longer than you suggested, huh?


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> How would you know?No I did not.
> I 'admitted' to doing things entirely by hand for a few years at first. Not entirely true I had a band saw and later a little router. You have stupidly interpreted this as my "only" using machines after that.
> Enough of this dismal nonsense you are on ignore again. Tedious, I've got more interesting things to do.



So you changed my words - almost entirely - to only.

What's your aim? It's like pulling teeth to get you to show any neat work that you've done mostly or entirely by hand - it's baffling as to why this is the case. 

I did a quick search of your old posts - first you worked entirely by hand, now you worked with a bandsaw and a router and also by hand for a few years. I have no idea which one it is. 

Then later, you made a statement that metal planes are superior in every way and faster for rough work in wood (which is not something anyone who worked entirely by hand would say), you have no idea how the cap iron works and haven't ever posted anything about it other than follow up after it was a regular topic of discussion and you talk at length about the need for a scrub plane. 

None of these match hands on experience doing a lot of hand work. Metal planes are out within weeks other than for smoothing and perhaps match planing for anyone who works on things entirely by hand. The volume of work suffers immediately and you end up landing on long and coarse planes from either continental europe or england (in wood), quickly. 

There have been a few people who have tried to work entirely by hand for pay here, and all of them went quickly to wooden planes for everything but smoothing. I would never try to do it for pay, but most of the people working with what is regarded as a complete set of power tools and doing hand work at the end for fitting aren't making anything, either and are relying either on teaching students or having a spouse who pays the bills. 

It's a little unusual that you make regular claims, at some interval, you'll later follow with suggestions that I don't make anything or post work (I don't know if this is intentional, maybe it's a reflection of capacity) and most people coming here for information will continue to wonder what you're talking about. I am just a hobbyist trying to find ways to do things efficiently so they're enjoyable, work as an applied mathematician by day, and there's a whole long trail of stuff that I've posted. Doesn't this seem a little backwards?


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## Sgian Dubh (31 Dec 2021)

The love-in between David and Jacob has, for me, ceased to be entertaining and has become tediously (dare I say it) infantile.

Perhaps both of you should go away for a while, rest your burning hot keyboards for a bit, and cool your foreheads with a succession of damp flannels for a few hours.

I predict you, Jacob, might reply to this with something along the lines of it all being just good knockabout fun. I'm not sure what David might say, if anything. Slainte.


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## Ttrees (31 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Just a little video I made some years back whilst playing with the blade relief angle,
> And phots of playing around with the throat opening.
> 
> View attachment 125473
> ...




Hello Mark
Was talking to you on the creek before, and you posted some of the above.
Yourself and seemingly Ian from the great down under, both have an opinion in which 
contradicting what I have mentioned about not having a fine mouth for use of the cap iron, as IMO it is about the biggest factor of failure to get this to work.
regardless of anything, definitely counterproductive for one who wants to learn,
or skim through the long bits.

I can see a real fine mouth in the corrugated plane above, although the shaving does not demonstrate anything much, which you might agree on.
Now I haven't said that won't work, as you've told me already that you do something else what's a bit mysterious in regards to me, which I won't pretend to know about.

I have yet to be convinced if that (tight mouth)
Lets pretend that a fine mouth has some other great uses, like beveling corners
and not there for any tearout prevention...

Can the plane take unbroken shavings in difficult material at the shaving thickness you are achieving with that light timber that you have shown.
Does the area in front of the mouth get very warm when working this,
Say after 20 mins use or so.

Is there more resistance, I can't help to think that there would be, having had a tight mouth for a good while, too long, it was tough going, and thus I'm skeptical that it wouldn't be a PITA.

And lastly,
What is the reason for having the mouth that tight, I'll bet there is a few reasons, 
just hard to find one which isn't concerning tearout.

Cheers
Tom


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I'm not sure what David might say, if anything. Slainte.



I find it pretty annoying because the commentary is inaccurate, inconsistent and there's no display of anything to provide credibility. But, sometimes I have to remember that almost nobody works mostly or entirely by hand. 

The problem with inaccurate and inconsistent or not useful is that someone who is actually looking for something useful can't tell the difference. I had to figure out what I learned more or less in isolation (but I enjoyed it) only to find out it's almost dead identical to nicholson's routines for someone working by hand 6 or 8 years later. 

The reason I ended up learning it by hand is because there's only one person I can recall who was actually working this way (others claimed to have wanted to) and that person wasn't very good at communicating what they were doing or proving it. 

I'm not a good candidate to tell a beginner how to plane because what I do now is a lot like what nicholson describes, and I doubt most beginners will do much dimensioning by hand because they won't get past the part where it's anything other than routine. I'll leave the beginners who would like to stay beginners to the folks who instruct them, and just the same for power tools (me telling anyone how to use power tools is like most people giving definitive instructions on using or making hand tools). 

if 1 out of 200 people who are hobby working actually work mostly or entirely by hand, I'd guess that somewhere around 5 out of 100 would prefer it, but have no way to get accurate information, so they crash through a sellers course or a couple of jacob posts and believe that it's going to be useful and then determine that it's too hard or arduous or inaccurate. That's too bad. I've got nothing for the other 95, though - plenty of other people do.


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## Adam W. (31 Dec 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> The love-in between David and Jacob has, for me, ceased to be entertaining and has become tediously (dare I say it) infantile.
> 
> Perhaps both of you should go away for a while, rest your burning hot keyboards for a bit, and cool your foreheads with a succession of damp flannels for a few hours.
> 
> I predict you, Jacob, might reply to this with something along the lines of it all being just good knockabout fun. I'm not sure what David might say, if anything. Slainte.


I dunno, I quite enjoy finding out who the people on this forum are and what their actual woodworking background is, especially when they take it upon themselves to feel qualified enough to pass judgement on the quality of other forum members work.

It can be quite revealing in the end to find out that they aren't actually qualified to pass any judgement at all.

Happy new year everyone.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> It can be quite revealing in the end to find out that they aren't actually qualified to pass any judgement at all.
> 
> Happy new year everyone.



From a guy getting a degree in a hobby.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

For the few who may want to explore hand planing (and generally working mostly by hand), I posted the excerpt from the nicholson book in the hand tools section. 

Having made planes and used them heavily, I don't have a great suggestion for being good at using them or understanding them without putting in the time with them (more than absolutely necessary).


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## hennebury (31 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Hello Mark
> Was talking to you on the creek before, and you posted some of the above.
> Yourself and seemingly Ian from the great down under, both have an opinion in which
> contradicting what I have mentioned about not having a fine mouth for use of the cap iron, as IMO it is about the biggest factor of failure to get this to work.
> ...


Hi Tom, I made the the video of the plane with zero relieve angle to prove a point, there are always many arguments over handplanes, with people giving "rules" and angles etc... one is about how much relieve angle you "need" so I was just showing that you shouldn't believe everything that you hear. Another is that you cant have a tight throat opening and a close set chipbreaker. So I set my chipbreaker close and my throat opening tight, tight enough so that the shaving is being squeezed through the opening and you can actually lift the front of the plane up by the shaving. 
My point is a lot of plane talk is simply wrong.
Planes are not super complicated., and their function follows the rules of nature, not peoples often flawed opinions.
If you want to understand handplanes and handplaning, you should learn to understand the material first. Get a good reference book on wood " Cut and Dried" comes to mind. get a jewelers loupe, go to your workshop and spend a day cutting, smashing, bending, breaking and splitting up wood, examine everything in detail, the weight, the smell, the pore structure, grain direction how it splits and cuts from different angles. Get to know wood. Take a piece of wood and describe every detail of it, it is a good lesson in observation. Then take a sharp chisel and cut the wood everyway that you can think of and examine that. Now you know most of what you will every need to know about cutting wood. Just got to add the chipbreaker learning curve and your all set.

All cutting tools, like plane blades and chisels etc. are wedges. Wedges have a tendency to for things apart. when pushing a handplane the wedging action of the blade splits the wood ahead of the cutting edge causing it to tear the wood before the cutting edge can reach it. The remedies that people have used, are to use 
Higher angle blades, this creates more forward pressure and reduces the lifting pressure, but also, is harder to push and doesn't cut quite so nice. 
Taking thinner shavings also reduces the tendancy to tear.
Having a low angle blade and a close set chipbeaker, this puts a wall to block the shaving running up the blade, putting pressure on the shaving preventing it from splitting ahead of the cutting edge, long enough for the cutting edge to cut the wood before it splits.
Another way is to have a close throat opening.

You can employ one or more in combination to achieve the best results. All will will create heat from friction.
The thing is to understand, experiment and find what works.

I put the supersurfacers in my post because they work. They work out of the box, no tinkering required.
Handplanes for the most part don't and require tinkering.

Hanplanes and supersurfacers do the same job in the same way, so it doesn't hurt to look at how they do it. You will find there are no opinions in the supersurfacer manual, just tool geometry and setup specs. The specs are very high tolerance and are critical to having the machine function properly.

The take away form this is that all of the cutting action that takes place is affected by minute details at the cutting edge. Tiny changes make a difference to the finish surface.
Planes are not complicated, or don't need to be.
You have to learn a few things and take a day to set up your handplane and that's it, you can use it for the next 50 years, and enjoy using it.

My cheap old Record smoother I bought on a trip to London back in the late 70's. I have used it ever since. I have done a lot of handplaning.
At some point i got tired of the sloppy adjustment's and removed the blade depth knob and blade angle lever , then cut the lever cap, blade and chipbreaker, I reground the chipbreaker, filed the throat opening angled away from the blade, so that the chipbreaker could get up close the the cutting edge without blocking the shavings, and that plane will probably do as good as a $10,000 custom-made plane. You need to be able to make minute accurate adjustments on the fly, and you find find a better or faster way of doing that than a good smack with a small hammer. With a small tap I can adjust the blade depth, angle and chipbreaker setback.
Birdseye Maple and Curly Maple some of which have been baked were all dressed on a supersurfacer. These were samples for a flooring company, that purchased a supersurfacer from me.











For reference, I made mostly furniture, tables and chairs, cabinets, etc..


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

The better Norris planes had a tight mouth and cap iron usability. I would assume that the former went by the wayside because it's a display of quality more than a function. 

If you file the inside of a Stanley mouth like an infill and check the cap to make sure it's not too steep, it works fine, but no real function is gained. 

The reason we don't suggest people do both with planes isn't because you can't, but rather that they'd need to have the skill to do it well.


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## Blackswanwood (31 Dec 2021)

@hennebury - that cabinet is beautiful. Are the top and bottom pieces steam bent?


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## hennebury (31 Dec 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> @hennebury - that cabinet is beautiful. Are the top and bottom pieces steam bent?


Thanks, no they are laminated.


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## hennebury (31 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> The better Norris planes had a tight mouth and cap iron usability. I would assume that the former went by the wayside because it's a display of quality more than a function.
> 
> If you file the inside of a Stanley mouth like an infill and check the cap to make sure it's not too steep, it works fine, but no real function is gained.
> 
> The reason we don't suggest people do both with planes isn't because you can't, but rather that they'd need to have the skill to do it well.


A reasonably flat sole and file the angle the mouth for better clearance, low curve chipbreaker and a sharp blade, and your good to go.


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## ArtieFufkin (31 Dec 2021)

bp122 said:


> I suspect the OP hasn't even seen my offer after he was put off by the rest of the stuff. He probably left the forum and sold his tools and taken up fishing, or golf!
> 
> Or has flown to Australia to watch the remaining Ashes tests!



Still here. Been busy the last couple of days watching videos, reading posts and the Record plane book.
But clearly not all the posts as I missed your offer, thank you very much!

Spent a few hours today sharpening a couple of planes and making a pile of shavings.
Will post bit more detail tomorrow or Sunday.


Happy new year folks. 
Cheers.


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## D_W (31 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> A reasonably flat sole and file the angle the mouth for better clearance, low curve chipbreaker and a sharp blade, and your good to go.



Yes, that's pretty much the Norris setup.


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## baldkev (31 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> At some point i got tired of the sloppy adjustment's and removed the blade depth knob and blade angle lever , then cut the lever cap, blade and chipbreaker,


I spotted that and thought "he's got a sawnoff!"


Some great looking work there


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## Adam W. (31 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> I spotted that and thought "he's got a sawnoff!"
> 
> 
> Some great looking work there


I was wondering if it had met the floor at some point.

I really like the look of the shavings from the supersurfacer @hennebury.


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## hennebury (31 Dec 2021)

I am sure that my plane has hit the floor more than once. 
This is a supersurfacer that I modified about 10 or more years ago. it shows the turntable and blade block etc and explains a bit about the operation.
The surface that they produce and the efficiency of these is quite impressive, and the shavings that they produce are quite amazing. It is just an all around great machine to get to use. 

The machine below is a bottom cutting machine that I rebuilt 15 years.


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## baldkev (31 Dec 2021)

How quick is that????


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## Cabinetman (31 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Hi Tom, I made the the video of the plane with zero relieve angle to prove a point, there are always many arguments over handplanes, with people giving "rules" and angles etc... one is about how much relieve angle you "need" so I was just showing that you shouldn't believe everything that you hear. Another is that you cant have a tight throat opening and a close set chipbreaker. So I set my chipbreaker close and my throat opening tight, tight enough so that the shaving is being squeezed through the opening and you can actually lift the front of the plane up by the shaving.
> My point is a lot of plane talk is simply wrong.
> Planes are not super complicated., and their function follows the rules of nature, not peoples often flawed opinions.
> If you want to understand handplanes and handplaning, you should learn to understand the material first. Get a good reference book on wood " Cut and Dried" comes to mind. get a jewelers loupe, go to your workshop and spend a day cutting, smashing, bending, breaking and splitting up wood, examine everything in detail, the weight, the smell, the pore structure, grain direction how it splits and cuts from different angles. Get to know wood. Take a piece of wood and describe every detail of it, it is a good lesson in observation. Then take a sharp chisel and cut the wood everyway that you can think of and examine that. Now you know most of what you will every need to know about cutting wood. Just got to add the chipbreaker learning curve and your all set.
> ...


Hi Mark, really beautiful work, your description above of the requirements when setting up a hand plane are pretty much exactly my thoughts. Thank you for that, I had dropped out of this discussion as I felt I was beating my head against a brick wall. It seems so simple to me re-the mouth and the cap iron that I get frustrated when people just don’t seem to be able to appreciate how such a simple cutting tool works. Ian


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## Ttrees (31 Dec 2021)

@hennebury 
Obviously we can see some influenced shavings, looks to me like what appears like the cap is as far as possible from the edge, whilst still working with minimum effort.
I question whether it's harder work when an influenced cut is used with a thicker shaving.

Not sure what you might have done to the plane in front of the mouth, but was much more difficult when 
I was taking productive shavings, not being aware of whatever it is you do to make it work well.
Not having seen this, but I can see the evidence of influence, nevermind the beautiful work.
I can take your word for it, no need to get photos of thicker even more influenced shavings.

What's your reason for the mouth being so tight?

Cheers
Tom


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2022)

Ttrees said:


> What's your reason for the mouth being so tight?
> 
> Cheers
> Tom


I’m sure he can answer for himself, but the reason the mouth is tight is so that the sole of the plane in front of the mouth holds the timber down, thus helping by preventing the surface of the timber being lifted up by the wedge action of the blade, which causes tear out. Ian


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## Ttrees (1 Jan 2022)

I tried the same thing for a wee while, and I eventually gave up on the idea of any tight mouth
when I came across examples which needed more influence, although I likely had my cap iron steepish, 50 something at the time, so did not try with a lower honed cap iron to match,
if this or changing the wear on the casting is what @hennebury does.

Maybe I'm being a bit of a neigh sayer, not being familiar with using both cap iron and tight mouth,
and keen to see if he recommends this, or keeping the mouth open and getting the cap iron to eliminate the tearout in the first place, and then move on to using both, for whatever reason.

I think I might have a video somewhere, and it would be funny to look back at it now, as it's evident that what I was doing at the time, easily took twice the effort, I remember the plane nearly coming to a halt planing some stuff.

Hard to believe that using both makes for less effort when the going gets tough, and the shavings need be heavier.
Unless this is strictly for smoothing?

Happy new year to all of ye!

Tom


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## hennebury (1 Jan 2022)

Ttrees said:


> @hennebury
> Obviously we can see some influenced shavings, looks to me like what appears like the cap is as far as possible from the edge, whilst still working with minimum effort.
> I question whether it's harder work when an influenced cut is used with a thicker shaving.
> 
> ...


There is a sweet spot, a perfect relationship between the thickness of the shaving and the chipbreaker, and to some extent the throat opening. Theoretically you should be able to remove the chipbreaker and set the throat opening to prevent tearout. You would have to have extremely accurate adjustment of the throat opening and be able to adjust it as you adjusted the blade for shaving thickness, to a prefect relationship. It seems that the best way to control tearout is to take thin shavings and a close set chip breaker. If you match the perfect relationship to the thickness of the shaving and the chipbreaker setback, matched with the type of wood you would have the best cut that you can get. It is however difficult to adjust planes to such a fine degree with any hope of doing it accurately. Even supersurfacers are not fully adjustable on the fly. Can you adjust a throat opening in or out 0.001" or 0.0005", because if you are taking shavings in the range of 0.001"- 0.002" it makes a difference. The same with chipbreakers 0.001" makes a difference, not easy to adjust your plane to those tolerances, and lets face most woodworkers probably are not familiar with those type of tolerances in setting tools, but tearout is visible at very small tolerances. Woodworking is a wide wide range, where some are okay with + or- 1/16th" and others 0.0005". So with handplanes and the relentless pursuit of absolute by some of the crazies with the drive to get the best possible finish with a handplane, nothing wrong with that, your life you get to make the rules. Some are okay with some level of good enough, some reach for the ever elusive absolute, that is life, that got us out of the caves and to where we are today, it is the drive to go further. There are those that say its unnecessary, and they are right of course, but then human existence is also unnecessary. Depends what floats your boat. 

The close throat opening I set in my plane was just tinkering to see at that setting how thick of a shaving Would go through it. The shaving was thicker than the opening and was somewhat compressed as it was a little tight to pull out.
Supersurfacers have an adjustable throat opening, adjustable in and out, up and down and tilt, so that you can put a line of pressure directly ahead of the cutter, I find it all quite fascinating and love experiment and observing the results. I enjoy making shavings and playing with the tools.....what can I say. 
My advise, if you wish to learn woodworking, trust no one... least of all yourself. Learn to question, test, observe and analyze. Life should be about exploring potential.


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## hennebury (1 Jan 2022)

I really don't use the really tight throat opening, I use the chipbreaker to control tearout, I have the throat opening fairly close, but have no way to accurately and easily adjust it on the fly. So I set it open a bit so its not compressing the shaving.
Below are the setup instruction for the knife and back-knife( chibreaker) for supersurfacers.


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## hennebury (1 Jan 2022)

Of course if you had a handplane with the adjustable throat like on a supersurfacer it would have more influence on tearout.


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## Adam W. (1 Jan 2022)

Well that saves me having to go and find that fancy carpentry mag for Tom.

Interesting read @hennebury, thanks.


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Hard to believe that using both makes for less effort when the going gets tough, and the shavings need be heavier.
> Unless this is strictly for smoothing?


 I use a number four smoothing plane for nearly all my work, I have set up one for difficult timber where the mouth is closed up a bit for fine shavings and the other one is for day-to-day stuff, and the mouth is set up so as not to impede the shavings at all – even on my one for difficult timber it’s not so close as to cause problems. 
@hennebury yes thanks, I would like to have seen the Japanese using your machine with an adjustable mouth, that video showing the blade pushing through the timber in slow motion and watching the timber lift ahead of the blade causing tear out, it just screamed out to me that it needed something to hold that timber down so that it could then be broken by the cap iron. The thing that would hold it down of course is the plane's sole in front of the blade, and it makes sense to me that the closer you can get that to the blade the better – within reason obviously. Ian


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2022)

hennebury said:


> Of course if you had a handplane with the adjustable throat like on a supersurfacer it would have more influence on tearout.


Like on my Stanley block plane where the planes sole in front of the blade is adjustable, the added bonus would be that the frog would be set solid as part of the casting, and would support the blade all the way right to the business end thus reducing any vibration/chatter.
Holding the "front sole" firmly after micro adjustment of the mouth might be an interesting design problem or maybe just turn the front knob to tighten. Ian


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## Adam W. (1 Jan 2022)

I think my LN mitre plane has the same setup as that too.

And the Veritas low angled jack, come to think of it.


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2022)

Well it’s certainly an easier way of adjusting the mouth on a plane than the trial and error "move the frog up a bit method" I suppose, be interested to see if they do a smoother like that.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Like on my Stanley block plane where the planes sole in front of the blade is adjustable, the added bonus would be that the frog would be set solid as part of the casting, and would support the blade all the way right to the business end thus reducing any vibration/chatter.
> ......


Well yes - moving the mouth is better than moving the frog and losing that little extra support behind the blade. Best avoided for all normal purposes.


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## paulrbarnard (1 Jan 2022)

What is the general opinion on the tapered blades found on a number of older wooden planes? As the get worn down they cause the mouth opening to get bigger. I resoled one of my wooden smoothers because the mouth was too big. It made a significant difference.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> What is the general opinion on the tapered blades found on a number of older wooden planes? As the get worn down they cause the mouth opening to get bigger. I resoled one of my wooden smoothers because the mouth was too big. It made a significant difference.


A lo of woodies turn up with inset repair to the mouth or even worn right down but with a whole new sole added. They just get adapted and survive I guess.


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## D_W (1 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> What is the general opinion on the tapered blades found on a number of older wooden planes? As the get worn down they cause the mouth opening to get bigger. I resoled one of my wooden smoothers because the mouth was too big. It made a significant difference.



If the mouth is an issue, then there should be more cap iron use. The mouth becomes a problem when it's large enough that you can accidentally catch the end of a board (picture the mouth being large enough that if you don't introduce the plane flat, the blade goes into the end of the board and lifts off the end as a chip instead of cutting it). 

The wear on the sole is going opposite of the blade getting thinner (the wear is the bigger of the two problems). It gets awkward when the mouth gets really large and you can fill the mouth or resole, but it shouldn't affect tearout unless you're skipping using the cap iron (which isn't a good compromise - relying on the mouth instead of the cap). 

I've made planes with an intentional plug from new (wooden planes) so that the wear can be set internally like an infill plane with the intention to replace them as the sole is worn, and they work well (very tight mouth, no clog), but the look is regarded as a worn out plane so it's not something that will become popular. 

A wider mouth is also trouble on a smoother if you intend to use the plane for smaller bevels or chamfers (enough of the bit being planed will slip between the iron and mouth to be pried off rather than planed off).


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## D_W (1 Jan 2022)

Anyone considering what Mark is saying about the supersurfacer should consider that if a closed mouth introduces extra work in combination with the cap iron (without much functional improvement), the machine won't care that much about the extra effort. You'll notice it - especially on a plane that takes bigger shavings (e.g., if you try to make a jack with a small mouth and then use it like a jack plane). 

The super surfacer can pretty much do what you'd do by hand and then plane three times longer because it can force a dull iron with negative clearance into a cut. The fellow in the US who dug up the K&K articles in 2012 also had wear profile pictures from the K&K trials (Which were generally for the benefit of machine planing and not hand planing - thus the idea of steep second irons and very precise settings and repetition through a machine). 

They ran irons that we would use that would go some small fraction of a KM (like an O1 iron may go 800 feet at a smoother setting or water hardening may go 600) figures like 1.6KM. Very early in that figure, no human would've kept a plane in the cut or been able to use it at all, but the machine can continue to force the iron down into the wood despite the belly on the bottom of the iron and continue the cut. 

Which would be useful as far as the machine goes as the idea that you'd sharpen it as often as a hand plane would go out the window (then combined further with a bunch of exotic steel irons or inserts).


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## D_W (1 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> What is the general opinion on the tapered blades found on a number of older wooden planes? As the get worn down they cause the mouth opening to get bigger. I resoled one of my wooden smoothers because the mouth was too big. It made a significant difference.



By the way, a good rule of thumb when making or refitting a wooden plane is that the mouth should be at least double the thickest shaving you'll take. If you're resoling a smoother, then that can still be very small. Maybe a hundredth or a fraction more (even though the angles inside the plane make that temporary).

There are planes with tapered inserts (including japanese planes) that run inside the plane in front of the iron. As the sole wears, you adjust the insert downward (and the insert is fatter further up, so as you advance it downward and then plane off the bit sticking out, the front of the mouth is again closer to the iron. Think crudely, an upside down triangle. AS the mouth of a plane opens, tap the triangle at the front of the plane mortise down and the mouth closes, and then you plane or abrade off the bit that's now sticking out below the mouth.

gimmicks like this started to appear in japanese planes around maybe 50 years ago and then disappeared seemingly when the market became mostly american and european buyers (which is probably by far the biggest customer for japanese tools and razors now - not domestic).

At any rate, if you're adding a sole or insert on an old plane, the mouth will start to create serious pointless friction around double the chip size (you'll be bending the shaving, but not preventing tearout ahead of the cut - just reducing the catastrophic type). If you get clogs with a tighter mouth, increase the angle inside the plane before opening the mouth further (the former will always allow feeding, sometimes increasing the mouth without steepening the internal angle in a wooden plane just allows bigger clogs).


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## hennebury (1 Jan 2022)

A simple pleasure to watch


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2022)

Incredible bit of kit, there must be a use for the shavings, insulation?


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## ArtieFufkin (1 Jan 2022)

I'm going to bring this thread back down to earth now...

I've read the record guide to planing (many thanks to @mrpercysnodgrass ), watched some vidoes linked to here and read the posts. Enjoyed the Japanese film showing the effect of altering the cap iron on tareout - that was new information for me.
I've made some progress over the last couple of days. First of all my number 4 plane iron is buggered, the top section that extends beyond the frog is bent forwards which means it isn't flat and the left had side of the blade is very slightly twised up on one side. I'm going to buy a new blade and start again.
The 4.5 seems in good shape and just needs sharpening.






The 5-1/2 which I like the feel and weight of needed sharpening which I have done. I kept the iron as straight as possible in the honing guide and got a good edge that easily removes hairs from my arm. I also did what Paul Sellers suggested and used a pen to mark the sole prior to rubbing over sand plaper to get it flat, it is flat and smooth.

Pic of iron. Far from perfect, but notably better than I'd managed before.
(after doing a load of work, and it is still sharp).





I have had this peice of Sipo for a while, but not wanted to attempt to squre it up incase I got it wrong.
It had band saw marks on all 4 sides and 2 were not square. (Pic taken part way through the work)






I was able to take very fine shaving with the 5.5 plane, it sounded very smooth as it was cutting too. Perhaps this is an easy wood to plane? I guess it is, more or less no tare out in either direction.
















I checked it with sqaures, a long ruler and on my very flat bench top (not pictured) mulitpule times. It is now as square all round as I can get it.

However I am having problems getting a square edge on some 18mm thick maple.
These 2 pictures sum the problem up, I can't get it flat, I keep swaping the the error from one side to the other.
Not sure what I am doing wrong, will keep practicing.

Should I use a smaller plane for this job? Or perhaps a shooting board?


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## Peter Sefton (1 Jan 2022)

Looks like you have made some major progress, planing the edge of narrow timber can be challenging. Make sure your blade is very sharp and fine set, I tend to use a slightly cambered blade and try and use the centre of the camber over the high spots to take them down

Cheers

Peter


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2022)

Hi Artie, it looks like you’re getting the hang of it! Well done. When planing an edge like that it’s sometimes helpful to use your left hand to support and hold down the front of the plane as normal but just with your thumb hanging over the edge by the front knob and you rub the side your fore finger along the side of the bit of wood you are planing, probably not very clear, but in essence your left hand is keeping the plane at the correct angle in relation to the side of the piece of wood you are planing. Ian
PS don’t forget to use a candle or similar to lube the sole of the plane, if you never have, be prepared for a revelation.


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## Ttrees (1 Jan 2022)

I'd bet your plane iron is salvageable, If there's a remaining kink from
something like that plane or another in the past had fallen and bent.
Could try and take a kink out on a makeshift anvil, like a sledgehammer or lump of flat metal, I think I would try a plastic head mallet first to hammer with.
Regarding any twist, I'd maybe try taking more pictures,
can you see light behind the cap, under the hump, when tightened very lightly.

Looks like you tried burnishing the high spots too.
Could try something like in Cosman's video, and clamp a cleat/stop in the vice if you have enough space.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> I'm going to bring this thread back down to earth now...
> 
> I've read the record guide to planing (many thanks to @mrpercysnodgrass ), watched some vidoes linked to here and read the posts. Enjoyed the Japanese film showing the effect of altering the cap iron on tareout - that was new information for me.
> I've made some progress over the last couple of days. First of all my number 4 plane iron is buggered, the top section that extends beyond the frog is bent forwards which means it isn't flat and the left had side of the blade is very slightly twised up on one side. I'm going to buy a new blade and start again.
> ...


It's all about which bits to remove, taking control and not just letting the plane do its own thing.
e.g. take off a matching sloping bit from the higher half so that you have something like a shallow pitch roof then take that off by planing straight down the middle, if that makes sense. 
If you scribble all over it with a pencil first then you can see where you've been, get to know how you are working and whats actually going on.


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## ArtieFufkin (1 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Hi Artie, it looks like you’re getting the hang of it! Well done. When planing an edge like that it’s sometimes helpful to use your left hand to support and hold down the front of the plane as normal but just with your thumb hanging over the edge by the front knob and you rub the side your fore finger along the side of the bit of wood you are planing, probably not very clear, but in essence your left hand is keeping the plane at the correct angle in relation to the side of the piece of wood you are planing. Ian
> PS don’t forget to use a candle or similar to lube the sole of the plane, if you never have, be prepared for a revelation.



Thanks, I'll get a candle, I can see how that would help, never done it before.



Ttrees said:


> I'd bet your plane iron is salvageable.



I dare say it is. But for the sake of £15ish for one from ebay, i'll just have a nice flat one and start again. I spent a good while with some sand paper trying to flatten the back of the iron and gave up when the pen marks in the corner simply wouldn't go.


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## Ttrees (1 Jan 2022)

Worth a bash, might learn something by tapping it flat.
Think Sellers actually has good video about this.
I wouldn't be holding stuff in a vice at all for planing, unless it was a very narrow edge.
But thats your choice who's methods you go with.


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## ArtieFufkin (1 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> It's all about which bits to remove, taking control and not just letting the plane do its own thing.
> e.g. take off a matching sloping bit from the higher half so that you have something like a shallow pitch roof then take that off by planing straight down the middle, if that makes sense.
> If you scribble all over it with a pencil first then you can see where you've been, get to know how you are working and whats actually going on.



You mean like this.







I managed to do it once or twice - but instantly put a camber back.

Should I be using a smaller plane for this? The maple board is 600mm long. would a number 4 be more suitable?


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## ArtieFufkin (1 Jan 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Worth a bash, might learn something by tapping it flat.
> Think Sellers actually has good video about this.
> I wouldn't be holding stuff in a vice at all for planing, unless it was a very narrow edge.
> But thats your choice who's methods you go with.



How would you hold it? The maple I have is 600mm x 100mm x 18mm


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> You mean like this.
> 
> View attachment 125653
> 
> ...


.Exactly! Then scribble pencil before you do the next shallow pass so you can see where you've been. It's a learning process.


> Should I be using a smaller plane for this? The maple board is 600mm long. would a number 4 be more suitable?


5 is a nice compromise for a board edge. 5 1/2 a bit heavy, 4 a bit short. Definitely clamp it in the vice unless Ttrees has got a really good idea!


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## ArtieFufkin (1 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Then scribble pencil before you do the next shallow pass so you can see where you've been. It's a learning process.


I didn't do the pencil line, will try again tomorrow. 
will stick with the 51/2 as that's all I have that's working at the moment.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> I didn't do the pencil line, will try again tomorrow.
> will stick with the 51/2 as that's all I have that's working at the moment.


soft pencil 2B or chalk on darker woods . etc.
candle wax - just a quick squiggle all down the length of the sole - people have been known to waste time "prepping" their planes with wax polish and all sorts!


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## hennebury (1 Jan 2022)

Set you plane for a very fine shaving, almost no shaving, 
Don't take full length shavings, just short ones over the high spots.
The shaving should get longer and wider with each shaving until the high spot is gone.
Lay the plane on the wood gently, and start pushing the plane forward as you increase the downforce on the plane, gradually picking up a shaving that gets a little thicker the more you press down. Center the plane over the high side,, and take multiple super light shavings that get wider and longer.

I agree with bashing the iron to bring it back to flat, you can also lightly grind the back, The Japanese chisels are hollow ground on the flat side, as are the handplane blades and the supersurfacer blades. Makes it fast and easy to get flat and polished and get making shavings. No need wasting a load of time polishing all that real estate for nothing. I just use a little pencil grinder and lightly run over the back, not deep, not pretty but works. then you can easily lap the back to however fine you want. You may have to refresh the grinding from time to time as lapping it a few times will eventually remove it.


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## Ttrees (1 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> How would you hold it? The maple I have is 600mm x 100mm x 18mm


Something like this, If you have a cleat for simply butting the work against, and sitting freely.
The vice would be in the way otherwise.
A cleat on the end of the bench, and a board against it would be grand for a planing stop, if you still wanted use of the vice.


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## ArtieFufkin (1 Jan 2022)

I'll give the bent blade a seeing too...

Not ordered a new one yet.


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2022)

Artie, probably use the vice till you get a bit more experience, but it does teach you bad habits! You should plane up against a stop, which is often a piece of wood sticking up from the surface of the bench. If you can get hold of a copy of "Mike Siemsen workholding on a viceless bench" you will learn a huge amount, it’s normally free on YouTube but it looks like Lostpress are trying to make money on it now.
Having the wood able to wobble on the surface of the bench forces you to plane properly, left hand applying downward force till the blade starts to cut then the right hand can push the plane along the wood, ease off on the front pressure before you reach the end. When planing an edge any bad side to side pressure will tip the plank over, it will be second nature very soon. Promise Ian


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## ArtieFufkin (1 Jan 2022)

That makes a lot of sense.
Will look into it...
Cheers


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## baldkev (1 Jan 2022)

hennebury said:


> A simple pleasure to watch



Ahhhh, now i know where that crepe paper comes from!!!! 
Thats a cool machine!


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## Adam W. (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Artie, probably use the vice till you get a bit more experience, but it does teach you bad habits! You should plane up against a stop, which is often a piece of wood sticking up from the surface of the bench. If you can get hold of a copy of "Mike Siemsen workholding on a viceless bench" you will learn a huge amount, it’s normally free on YouTube but it looks like Lostpress are trying to make money on it now.
> Having the wood able to wobble on the surface of the bench forces you to plane properly, left hand applying downward force till the blade starts to cut then the right hand can push the plane along the wood, ease off on the front pressure before you reach the end. When planing an edge any bad side to side pressure will tip the plank over, it will be second nature very soon. Promise Ian


Indeed, like learning to ride a bike without stabilisers.

Another one is if you're going to joint a few thin boards for a glue up, stack them thin edge on and if they all stand up straight, you're good to go.


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## pe2dave (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Artie, probably use the vice till you get a bit more experience, but it does teach you bad habits! You should plane up against a stop


 Any evidence to support this view? Seems an awful lot of people use a vice to hold wood for planing?


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## Adam W. (2 Jan 2022)

True, but if you plane wood on a bench without strapping it down, it speaks back and tells you what's wrong with it by skating around in a particular way.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

pe2dave said:


> Any evidence to support this view? Seems an awful lot of people use a vice to hold wood for planing?


 That’s true and if it was a half inch thick board and 8 inches high I probably would as well but mostly it’s quicker and easier against the planing stop, earlier I described how to change the downward pressure from hand to hand as you move along the board, you can only learn that against a stop. Most of the problems people have when planing is because they always put it a vice, they’re not getting the feedback. 
If you get chance to watch Mike Siemsen he demonstrates this perfectly. Ian


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> True, but if you plane wood on a bench without strapping it down, it speaks back and tells you what's wrong with it by skating around in a particular way.


Well yes definitely for faces but I always do board edges in the vice. I guess I'm a bit of a slacker.
Another little trick is to take a look at the shavings as they come up through the mouth and you can see which part of the workpiece you are removing them from.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Well yes definitely for faces but I always do board edges in the vice. I guess I'm a bit of a slacker.
> Another little trick is to take a look at the shavings as they come up through the mouth and you can see which part of the workpiece you are removing them from.


Have you just added a saw-blade to your moniker- nice, bandolier of chisels next?


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Have you just added a saw-blade to your moniker- nice, bandolier of chisels next?


 No it's as it was. I lifted it from a post from Trevanion (sadly departed) as he was taking the p..iss out of me for being the "push stick crusader".


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

I see this thread has gained 4000 views, so it is obviously of interest. I’m going to assume it’s not just for the bickering and carry on re planing against a stop.
So if you haven’t planed against a stop, start with a bit of something like three by one about 18 inches long, if When you start to plain one of the edges it falls over it will be because you are putting too much pressure on one side.
If when you start to plane


Jacob said:


> No it's as it was. I lifted it from a post from Trevanion (sadly departed) as he was taking the p..iss out of me for being the "push stick crusader".


 I was heavily advocating the push sticks as well, I even started a thread and got shot at from all sides. Worth it though if it stopped one injury


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> ....
> 
> I was heavily advocating the push sticks as well, I even started a thread and got shot at from all sides. Worth it though if it stopped one injury


Yes, just think of the fingers we've saved!


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## HamsterJam (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> PS don’t forget to use a candle or similar to lube the sole of the plane, if you never have, be prepared for a revelation.



I was planing some pallet wood yesterday and tried the candle trick as I had one on the bench from some drilling. Wow - what a difference it makes - why didn’t I try this before?


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

I see this thread has attracted 4000 views, I’m hoping it’s not all just for the bickering and so I will bore you all a little bit more about planing against a stop.
Start with a bit of board about 3” x 1” x 18“ if when you start planing the edge up against a stop it falls over that is telling you that you are pressing too much on one side or the other and it is unlikely that you will get the square edge that way.
When you first start to plane that edge press down fairly hard with your left hand on the front knob of the Plane this will prevent it bucking as the blade hits the wood, pushing through with pressure from your right hand, when you reach the and if you are still pressing down with your left hand the whole board will lift off the bench against the stop, so this tells you that next time when you almost reach the end reduce the downward pressure from your left hand and press down with your right as well as pushing with that hand, it sounds complicated but it will become second nature after a very short time. And as I said if you can manage to see that video of Mike Siemsen I think it’s called workholding on a viceless bench he demonstrates it perfectly, and it’s well worth a watch for anybody starting out in woodwork, I learnt a few things even after 40 years. Ian


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> I was planing some pallet wood yesterday and tried the candle trick as I had one on the bench from some drilling. Wow - what a difference it makes - why didn’t I try this before?


 Brilliant, thanks for the feedback. Ian


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## Adam W. (2 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Well yes definitely for faces but I always do board edges in the vice. I guess I'm a bit of a slacker.
> Another little trick is to take a look at the shavings as they come up through the mouth and you can see which part of the workpiece you are removing them from.


That's because you don't have a degree in your hobby like I does. Innit?


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> That's because you don't have a degree in your hobby like I does. Innit?


I have qualifications too - in the Scouts I was patrol leader of the Peewits!


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## paulrbarnard (2 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> That's because you don't have a degree in your hobby like I does. Innit?


Diversifying the thread into a debate about scholars and intellectuals?

To start the ball rolling here are a couple of definitions

A scholar is someone who learns more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing
An intellectual; is someone who learns less and less about more and more until they know nothing about everything.


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## Adam W. (2 Jan 2022)

True, I'm constantly learning that I need to learn more.

About less.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> Diversifying the thread into a debate about scholars and intellectuals?
> 
> To start the ball rolling here are a couple of definitions
> 
> ...


 And then there’s all the rest of us in the middle who know a little bit about quite a lot and a lot about a little bit so what does that make us, – careful now.


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## pe2dave (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> That’s true and if it was a half inch thick board and 8 inches high I probably would as well but mostly it’s quicker and easier against the planing stop, earlier I described how to change the downward pressure from hand to hand as you move along the board, you can only learn that against a stop. Most of the problems people have when planing is because they always put it a vice, they’re not getting the feedback.
> If you get chance to watch Mike Siemsen he demonstrates this perfectly. Ian


IMHO there are quite a few assumptions behind that. I'll stick to my vice thanks.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

I wouldn’t say they were assumptions, more like lessons learned through a life of doing. It’s your choice, but I would suggest you give it a try.


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## D_W (2 Jan 2022)

Wait, there's something wrong with push sticks?


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> Wait, there's something wrong with push sticks?


 There was quite a long running argument/debate when we tried to inform people that push blocks were dangerous and to use push sticks instead. Fairly sure we won!


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## D_W (2 Jan 2022)

OK, having not seen that argument - when wood rotates into a TS blade before a kickback, the push block rakes your hand into the blade. A push stick has your hands far enough away from the blade that the end of the stick gets whacked. 

Did I get it right? (I've not used power tools that much compared to a lot of folks, but I had the "luck" of experiencing kickback early on from a strong saw - i remember the pattern on the wood and want nothing that leaves my hands close to blade height). 

Separately, when you do make your trek over to PA, let me know where you end up.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> OK, having not seen that argument - when wood rotates into a TS blade before a kickback, the push block rakes your hand into the blade. A push stick has your hands far enough away from the blade that the end of the stick gets whacked.
> 
> Did I get it right? (I've not used power tools that much compared to a lot of folks, but I had the "luck" of experiencing kickback early on from a strong saw - i remember the pattern on the wood and want nothing that leaves my hands close to blade height).
> 
> Separately, when you do make your trek over to PA, let me know where you end up.


Yes you got it dead right – spot-on. Hopefully starting out for Pennsylvania in the summer with a view to getting married in the autumn? We visit Cleveland a couple of times a year so be nice to meet up as we pass through Pittsburgh. Ending up somewhere around Lancaster county, off to the East. Ian


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## D_W (2 Jan 2022)

By all means - if you're going past to Cleveland, it'll literally add no more than a half hour to your trip to come through my way. I originally grew up closer to where you'll be ending up.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

Finally found the vid, just hope the link works. Yes I know it’s long 31mins but I can almost guarantee you will be impressed. Well I was. Ian


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## ArtieFufkin (2 Jan 2022)

Tried planing the maple against a stop clamped to my bench this afternoon. I got there after some more trial and error.
Pencil lines helped.










Ordered some more sandpaper, have work to do on the soles of my planes.

It's all starting to make sense now I've been thinking about everything properly.

Thanks everyone.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

Brilliant, your off, the world's your lobster (decent woodwork) Ian


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## Ttrees (2 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> Tried planing the maple against a stop clamped to my bench this afternoon. I got there after some more trial and error.
> Pencil lines helped.
> 
> View attachment 125720
> ...


I recommend not going near the planes with sandpaper, as that is a trap for the 
newcomers.
You can plane a straight edge(s) very precisely with near any plane.
No point in going near that unless you can match the likes of Lie Nielsen.
Plenty of terrible videos from all the gurus out there,lapping on large surfaces, most of which might very well destroy a plane should it be of any length.
Not necessary, and not as simple as it might appear, ask yourself why no feeler gauges and surface plate are proving this in the end!

Your methodology for holding the work is a good one IMO 
and it will make one aware straight away that the work won't sit well with a hump in the middle.


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## Ttrees (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Finally found the vid, just hope the link works. Yes I know it’s long 31mins but I can almost guarantee you will be impressed. Well I was. Ian



Great workholding methods for sure, but more suited to planing the very roughest of stock, which some of that stuff was not.
Certainly not a video suited in regards of good methodology in terms of accurate planing
but the video was mostly demonstrating the bench, so I suppose I might be asking for much.
Had a watch of another video he has knocking about, which doesn't hold a candle to Cosman's video IMO.
Why?
Consideration of the thickness, which side sits better (the concave side)
getting that face flat and not a shaving more than necessary, which is in near every case of youtubes,
No beveling of edges, no cross grain planing needed, only corner to corner, but not blowing out the very edge which should remain nice and crisp!

That is your easiest indication of how flat the work is, when it's sitting loosely on the bench, no shadow lines or visual feelers of any thickness should be allowed pass, and beyond that Charlesworth's videos can be learned from.
No cleaning up with your hand, that only takes one swipe with a long bit of timber 
_when the bench and timber is flat._

Working cross grain looks to me a method for wider stock than you can reach easily, ie to the other side of the bench,
should the work not be able to be swapped over end for end.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Finally found the vid, just hope the link works. Yes I know it’s long 31mins but I can almost guarantee you will be impressed. Well I was. Ian



I watched the whole thing which is very rare for me! I usually turn off a few minutes after the banjo ends and they say "Welcome to my Sharp"!
Nicholsons book shows a bench with a vice ("bench screw") and a single large stop ("bench hook") and an array of pinholes in the apron ("side board") but non on top.
So Siemsen's show is another thing altogether but interesting.
Can't say I'm overly tempted to follow his path, not least because I've already got the vice and a very similar single planing stop.
I already plane a lot just sitting loose on the top, up against the planing stop - you have to shift wider boards a touch as you go so they don't spin off, but is fast and easy. Sometimes put a screw or nail in the bench as a stop, or various other wheezes and wangles. It's always handy to have loads of offcuts around so you van bodge something up if necessary.

Re ArtieFufkin and plane soles. They almost certainly don't need sanding - it's just a fad with the modern sharpeners. But if you do - wet n dry is best - used 80 grit wetted down with white spirit on a flat surface - I use my planer bed. It's flatter than any other set-up and is fast. Go to and fro with the plane against a straightish edge scrap piece so that the grinding marks are straight up and down the length and not across. Thats all you need to do - it's a bit snatchy when you use it at first but the scratches soon get blunted and low friction. No need for finer grits or polishing.


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Great workholding methods for sure, but more suited to planing the very roughest of stock, which some of that stuff was not.
> Certainly not a video suited in regards of good methodology in terms of accurate planing
> but the video was mostly demonstrating the bench, so I suppose I might be asking for much.
> Had a watch of another video he has knocking about, which doesn't hold a candle to Cosman's video IMO.


 Thanks for watching it and, each to our own, but he does demonstrate extremely well how to plane against a stop and the way it trains You to plane properly.
" not a video suited in regards of good methodology in terms of accurate planing " I must disagree it will help people to plane properly, If somebody is still putting their wood in the vice to plane it all the time, or between the jaws on a tail vice, I recommend that they try planing against a stop, it will soon show up their bad habits. It’s simple enough it just takes a little practice. 
I still recommend this video to all woodworkers, I feel sure you will learn something - probably something unexpected. 
Just so you know he doesn’t actually advocate not having a vice and he says as much in the video, he just demonstrates allsorts of different holding methods. Ian


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> I watched the whole thing which is very rare for me! I usually turn off a few minutes after the banjo ends and they say "Welcome to my Sharp"!


Yep, he’s the only one I can stand, I know he’s a yank but for a nice change he doesn’t waffle on, it’s straight in to the good stuff, and he does know what he’s talking about.


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## Ttrees (2 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Thanks for watching it and, each to our own, but he does demonstrate extremely well how to plane against a stop and the way it trains You to plane properly.
> " not a video suited in regards of good methodology in terms of accurate planing " I must disagree it will help people to plane properly, If somebody is still putting their wood in the vice to plane it all the time, or between the jaws on a tail vice, I recommend that they try planing against a stop, it will soon show up their bad habits. It’s simple enough it just takes a little practice.
> I still recommend this video to all woodworkers, I feel sure you will learn something - probably something unexpected.
> Just so you know he doesn’t actually advocate not having a vice and he says as much in the video, he just demonstrates allsorts of different holding methods. Ian


I've watched it a few times, and had a rewatch,
My reasons I outlined in the last post which I added in a paragraph.

Edit: I should outline this video is also what I'm talking about

Tom


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## Cabinetman (2 Jan 2022)

Ttrees said:


> I've watched it a few times, and had a rewatch,
> My reasons I outlined in the last post which I added in a paragraph.
> 
> Tom


Yes thank you, I enjoyed that I hadn’t seen that one before, a good demonstration of how to flatten a board. And @ArtieFufkin he demonstrates in the first minute that action of using the finger on you left hand over the side of the plane to keep your plane square to the edge, shame he had it in the vice that time. Ian


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## Ttrees (3 Jan 2022)

Looks like Artie's got the hang of it,
Strange to see some folks will happily be planing on a bump, or a hollow when just a few shavings are needed to flatten it and stop the work deflecting.
(which is most likely the case in most instances, where folks get the idea of the tool being out being flat)
Had a look for another Cosman video, many there, but not even worth a mention. nothing at all compared to the one I seen years ago.


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## ArtieFufkin (3 Jan 2022)

Ttrees said:


> I recommend not going near the planes with sandpaper,



My 4/12 isn't quite flat, I have a large sheet of float glass and feeler gauges, I'm confident about sorting it out quite quickly.
I have flattened the number 4, very pleased with how that has come out.

However I am less keen to work on my 5 1/2. What would you do with a number 5 that has a high heal? The last 2 inches rise up, enough that pressing down on the heal lifts the toe. It'll need a lot of work, I'm not sure it's worth it.


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## Jacob (3 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> My 4/12 isn't quite flat, I have a large sheet of float glass and feeler gauges, I'm confident about sorting it out quite quickly.
> I have flattened the number 4, very pleased with how that has come out.
> 
> However I am less keen to work on my 5 1/2. What would you do with a number 5 that has a high heal? The last 2 inches rise up, enough that pressing down on the heal lifts the toe. It'll need a lot of work, I'm not sure it's worth it.


Coarse wet n dry, very wet on your glass, is fast. No glue just keep it well flooded. Pool on the glass, drop paper on it, pour more on top. No need for feeler gauges you can see where you've been.
PS the glass or other flat surface needs to be big enough so that you can drop on it one _whole_ sheet of wet n dry with room around it, 2 sheets end to end for a long plane like a 7. Move the plain (and a wooden lath straightedge) around to use the whole area and keep the scratches for and aft straight


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## Sgian Dubh (3 Jan 2022)

hennebury said:


> If you want to understand handplanes and handplaning, you should learn to understand the material first. Get a good reference book on wood " Cut and Dried" comes to mind.


I appreciate the endorsement for my book. Many thanks.

I find it heartening to see that since my earlier intervention rather bemoaning the bickering that developed in the earlier stages of this thread that it seems to have turned to a more positive tone with discussion and information I suspect ArtieFufkin has been able to employ in developing knowledge and skills in plane set up and use. Slainte.


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## ArtieFufkin (3 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Finally found the vid, just hope the link works. Yes I know it’s long 31mins but I can almost guarantee you will be impressed. Well I was. Ian



That's an impressive video.
I realise the stop I used is probably too thick and would prevent the work peice from riding up at the back if I was using too much force. 
In the other video linked to here he has an adjustable peice of ply wood on the end of the bench that can be raised or lowered as stop when required.
I'll add that to my bench soon.


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## Adam W. (3 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Finally found the vid, just hope the link works. Yes I know it’s long 31mins but I can almost guarantee you will be impressed. Well I was. Ian



Tut!

He puts his plane down on its edge not the sole.


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## Cabinetman (3 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Tut!
> 
> He puts his plane down on its edge not the sole.


Don’t start!


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## Jacob (3 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> .....
> I realise the stop I used is probably too thick and would prevent the work peice from riding up at the back if I was using too much force.


I think that is "over thinking" it! Any stop will do, more or less.


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## ArtieFufkin (3 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> I think that is "over thinking" it! Any stop will do, more or less.


I agree. 
But I'm going to add one anyway. Will be useful for playing down thiner pieces. Like guitar neck blanks which are typically 19 or 20mm thick.


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## D_W (3 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Don’t start!



I wonder what kind of push sticks or blocks he uses.


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## D_W (3 Jan 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I appreciate the endorsement for my book. Many thanks.
> 
> I find it heartening to see that since my earlier intervention rather bemoaning the bickering that developed in the earlier stages of this thread that it seems to have turned to a more positive tone with discussion and information I suspect ArtieFufkin has been able to employ in developing knowledge and skills in plane set up and use. Slainte.



Eventually, they all right themselves or stop due to indifference.


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## D_W (3 Jan 2022)

In regard to the rules that folks will want to apply about workholding, do what works when planing. There may be times that you're planing long sticking that's not perfectly flat, and it's useful to confine it between dogs - it's not the nicest thing in the world to work with wood like that, but if you're making guitars, you'll get fingerboards here and there that you're thicknessing and roughing and you're going to want those between dogs (cheap plastic dogs that can be planed short work great for that - when you plane them down they don't damage the tools and you won't feel like you spent much on them and can't modify them. 

Sometimes between the time you resaw the fingerboard blank and the time you get to use the blank, things move - larger wood, not so much. 

I don't know what they did for workholding by century, but you could find people willing to tie each other in knots about whether or not it's even OK to have a vise on a bench. They're re-enacting - you can take the best from each era instead.


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## ArtieFufkin (3 Jan 2022)

Last day of the holiday and along with taking down the Christmas decorations I had time to work on the sole of my 5 1/2.
Used some 80 grit paper from a belt sander, that I never use, my noteched straight edge (for checking guitar necks) and table saw to monitor progress. I recokon it was an hour's work, maybe a bit longer, its removed more or less all of the pitting and marks too. Finished it on some 320, very happy with it now, looks lovely. 

Before anyone panics, the vice was only just tight enough to hold the plane for the photo - I did the actual checking holding them both up to the light. (at no point was the vice actaully used in the process)












I practiced jointing with four rough bits of scrap timber, got all 6 edges pretty dam close, surprised myself with the tolerance I've achieved. I planed the faces flat and level too, there was a good 3 or 4mm diffence in thickness to start with.
Used a stop (12mm bit of ply) on my bench, I find this easier than using a vice. I'd never have tried that method prior to starting this thread.









Very pleased with how things have improved, lots more practice required though.


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## Adam W. (3 Jan 2022)

Ooooh, look at you!

Now you need to do the stack with 1" boards.


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## ArtieFufkin (3 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Now you need to do the stack with 1" boards.


Yes I do, I'll get myself down to the wood recycling place at the weekend and buy some scrap to practice with.


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## Adam W. (4 Jan 2022)

I was thinking that you might want to consider the position of that cramp which holds the batton to the bench, as you might end up crashing into it with the toe of your newly spruced up plane.


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## furnace (4 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> Very pleased with how things have improved, lots more practice required though.


I think that's really good progress and a testament to reading, thinking and then practising with commitment - a process that @Adam W. demonstrates in spades.


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## ArtieFufkin (4 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I was thinking that you might want to consider the position of that cramp which holds the batton to the bench, as you might end up crashing into it with the toe of your newly spruced up plane.



Noted, thanks 
It was out of the way for the work I was doing.
But would be dangerous with smaller items.
I'm going to make a retractable stop of the end of my bench to remove the issue completely.


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## Jacob (4 Jan 2022)

ArtieFufkin said:


> Noted, thanks
> It was out of the way for the work I was doing.
> But would be dangerous with smaller items.
> I'm going to make a retractable stop of the end of my bench to remove the issue completely.


Somewhat OTT version here Install a Planing Stop
Mines the same but smaller and I've never added any metal work, nor missed it.
I use it a lot and it's highly effective. It's near bench end slightly to the left of the vice. The vice can be extended out as extra support for wider pieces. I have to move wider pieces as I go so that I'm planing towards the stop, or the board could spin off. Can add other stops to the bench top as necessary, but often isn't.
Make the stop long so that you can trim it as the top end gets battered, over the years.


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## Adam W. (4 Jan 2022)

Well, I too have a nifty solution to that issue.

Plane a board flat, say 12" x 8"x 1/4" and screw a piece of 2" on the underside at one end. Then stick it in your vice so that the board lays flat across the bench.

Job done and you can take it off and stash it under the bench when not needed.


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