# Working in green oak



## CWatters (21 Apr 2009)

Got an 18 foot long oak beam arriving next week so I guess I'd better figure out how to work it!

How do experts cut your 2" wide mortices? Google suggests the obvious method of drilling holes and squaring up with a chisel but what sizes holes do you go for? One site recommends using a 2" ships auger but that sounds like a heck of a big drill? Am I going to have to take out a Gym membership or buy shares in a power drill manufacturer?


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## paulm (21 Apr 2009)

Hi Colin,

Never done anything like this in green oak, but guess it depends on the equipment you already have to hand to some extent. 

If you only have a weedy cordless drill then that will mean you're stuck with smaller bits, but if you have a larger more industrial type corded drill you could use larger drills, or perhaps even go with a good old fashioned brace and bit if you have one and want the exercise !

Not much help I know, but a bit more info' would probably help, and is it just one mortice or loads of them for example ?

Cheers, Paul


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## jasonB (21 Apr 2009)

I use a 20mm auger in a SDS+ drill, this is a good size for pegs as well, I do tend to use a 40mm chisel so the two times 20mm works out well, you may want to go upto 25mm drill for 50mm mortices. 

Jason


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## CWatters (21 Apr 2009)

Thanks for the replies. I'll have about 6 or 8 to do so perhaps not worth investing in expensive tools. Will see what my drill will turn and perhaps hire a bigger one for a day if necessary.


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## MikeG. (21 Apr 2009)

Colin,

Green oak is easy! I don't think there is anything nicer to work. A 25 or 30mm spade bit in a normal 240V electric drill will fly through it, and the chiselling is simple too. I would suggest you get hold of a 1-1/2" chisel, or even a 2", though. You'll soon think of the stuff as hard cheese rather than timber. Properly green wood will actually spray water off the drill as you withdraw it from the wood. 

Don't forget to allow for vast amounts of shrinkage across the grain, and do your draw-bore pegging straight away.....pegs of seasoned oak. I always make sure that there are shoulders all around tenons, because shrinkage can reveal the mortices otherwise.

Anyway, have fun!! What are you making?

Mike


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## plug (21 Apr 2009)

I use green oak at work all the time, I have always drilled out the mortices first with a 20-25mm drill bit (flat or auger), them chop out the rest with a 40mm all steel chisel (from Axminster) and a 4 pound club hammer.


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## big soft moose (21 Apr 2009)

we do a fair bit in green and part seasoned at work - we use a multico morticer with a half inch chisel and do multiple passes if we need wider widths (though admittedly the weight of an 18 foot beam might make this impractical - the most we work in is 6"x6" x 8' )


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## RogerS (21 Apr 2009)

Colin...you don't mention the other dimensions. If your cross-sectional area is large have you thought about (a) how you are going to get it in to work on and (b) how you are going to get it into position?

You also didn't say how deep the mortices were. If they aren't that deep then why not rout out using a 1/2" kitchen worktop cutter?


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## CWatters (22 Apr 2009)

This is what I'll be building..





The oak is for the front posts and front eaves beam. Cladding will either be waney edge oak or larch. Not sure yet if I will add diagonal wind braces as well but I should have enough oak coming. There are brick pillars at the base of the posts not shown in the drawing. Roof will be clay tiled.

The beam under the eaves is 8" x 6" x 18 foot so plenty heavy. The verticals are 6" x 6" posts so bit more manageable. I plan to assemble the beam and posts flat on the ground as close as possible and then raise it up. Previous experience is limited to hanging a 12 foot gate on an oak post. That post was 8 inches square and 8 foot long and quite a struggle to get in the ground - so I have some idea of the problem ahead.


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## MikeG. (22 Apr 2009)

I hope you have lots of people available to give you a hand!!!

Mike


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## RogerS (22 Apr 2009)

Colin

I really really recommend you hiring a Genie Lift. It makes light work of lifting and manouevring beams like yours. What price a hernia/slipped disc?

I hired mine from Travis Perkins. One of the best hires I've ever done. Magic bit of kit.

Roger


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## CWatters (22 Apr 2009)

Thanks for that suggestion. I was thinking winches or a fork lift truck, I didn't know this sort of man powered lift existed.. 

http://www.travisperkins.co.uk/hire/pro ... 1&img=4297

Edit: Just calculated the weight of the big beam at between 220lbs(100Kg) and 350lbs (160Kg). Volume is about 6 cubic foot. That appears within the limits of the 2.5meter Genie. HSS has it on hire at £64 for the day or £75 for a weekend.


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## MikeG. (22 Apr 2009)

Deleted!


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## dickm (22 Apr 2009)

Think I'd be worried trying to use that lift anywhere other than a nice flat factory floor. Problems of stability on the slightest slope, and wheels that size would disappear into the soil unless you are really lucky. 
Got any friendly local farmers with a rough terrain materials handler?


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## RogerS (22 Apr 2009)

dickm":2ws3qauf said:


> Think I'd be worried trying to use that lift anywhere other than a nice flat factory floor. Problems of stability on the slightest slope, and wheels that size would disappear into the soil unless you are really lucky.
> Got any friendly local farmers with a rough terrain materials handler?



True but hopefully Colin will have a nice concrete slab.

Colin..the other thing to worry about is how are you going to get it from where they literally drop it off the lorry and where you need it. Lengths of soil pipe works well or just get some slings from machine mart and drag behind your 4x4.

Below are a few pictures that I took of my mini-project


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## milkman (23 Apr 2009)

ou may find you have to hire a more powerful drill to handle a 2" bit.

Genie lifts or roustabouts excellent things Also 3 -4 handy people to lift it to the site!

Timber framers often use heavy tired trolleys a bit like this:



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## chris_d (23 Apr 2009)

CWatters,

Apologies for this distraction but I noticed that you installed a sprung latch on the gate that you hung. Would you mind sending me a close-up photo of the latch-to-post assembly since I also need to install one and it has defeated me thus far in terms of getting a reliable geometry?

Cheers,
Chris


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## CWatters (23 Apr 2009)

My digital camera has packed up so I'm restricted to photos I took when it was done. This is the best one I have... 






The correct proceedure is to hang the gate on one post then dig the hole for the other post. If the latch post is only a 6" post it's position is quite critical. Normally the gate should overlap the post 1" but if you do that the space for the latch is only 5" wide which can be very tight. The hole for the catch is too near the left hand edge of the post. I found this out the hard way. It would be easier if a 7" or 8" post was used both sides. The post in the photo is 6" and the overlap with the gate about 0.5".

It might be easier to use this type of latch in some cases...


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## CWatters (23 Apr 2009)

PS. The catch is about 2" lower than the strap on the gate to allow for the gate to drop a bit.

The spring force with this type is allways moderately strong and you have to manually close the gate - you can't really slam it as it would be a bit violent. I'm not too sure how to reduce the spring tension. One possibility might be to drill a line of holes down the length of the spring and enlarge until it's right - but I've never tried this and the edges of the holes would probably rust.


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## CWatters (23 Apr 2009)

Regarding moving my oak beam around... I used a sack trolley on the 8" sq 12 ft gate post. Only moved one end of it at a time! Wasn't too bad. This time I will have to move the beam about 50 yards up a gentle slope as not possible to get the lorry any closer. 

I think I'll arrange things so that I only use a Genie to do a straight lift. That should be possible. Unfortunately it at the moment where it will need to stand to lift the beam is grassed. I will eventually need to put hardcore down there so I can bring that bit of work forward and ensure it's got a steady base.

There is a man in the USA who moves stone blocks around that weigh over a tone on his own...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0


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## chris_d (23 Apr 2009)

Thank you Colin - you're an absolute star!

Luckily I used 7" posts on the gate I've already hung so I can try to copy your suggested layout (I overlapped the post by 1.5"). However, I've got a second gate to do but bought 6" posts for that.

Since I've yet to open the second sprung latch kit I'll heed your advice and swap it for the auto-lock catch type.

Thanks again,
Chris


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## CWatters (24 Apr 2009)

How wide is your gate? Few days ago I ordered a 6 foot oak gate and 6" posts and today they rang up to say the post I'd ordered was marginal for a 6 foot oak gate and that they had cut me a 7" hanging post and a 6" striker post instead for same price. Nice one. They said they normally recommend..

12 foot gate => 8" post
6 foot gate => 7" post
3/4 foot gate. => 6" post


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## EddieJ (24 Apr 2009)

Strange what a quick Google of 'green oak' brings up, and here I now am making my first post about the subject that I work with for living.  

With ref to the mortice holes, obviously I'm in a different situation to yourself and use either an elderly chain morticer, a Ryobi portable chisel morticer or a Ryobi portable chain morticer. When I first started, I simply had a large washer to act as a stop welded onto a 25mm wood auger. It worked very well, didn't clog and I still have it tucked away in case of an emergency. In your situation the later would work very well, although as already stated you would need a decent drill. I have two Metabo single speed drills for my work, and find them both more than adequate for this type of work. If the prospect of drilling it and squaring the holes daunts you, then just opt for the easy option of stainless bolts/coach screws.

In respect of lifting, I work solely on my own with no outside help, and regularly lift/ move beams in excess of your required size. Its just down to being methodical about your approach. Use rollers or a trolley to get the wood into position, then use either a Genie lift (the costly approach) or simply use staging at various heights and lift one end at a time, moving onto each lift. I used to use this method, but bought a Genie lift a while ago and haven't looked back!  

Here is a couple of projects that I'm currently working on.

I should finish this one tomorrow







And this was taken today in my workshop


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## Jake (24 Apr 2009)

EddieJ":29nxshx0 said:


> I should finish this one tomorrow
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Quoting so your pictures show up - caught by the spam trap - it wears off after you've posted a few more times.


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## EddieJ (24 Apr 2009)

Jake":2ledo3sx said:


> Quoting so your pictures show up - caught by the spam trap - it wears off after you've posted a few more times.



Thanks for that, I thought that I had already got off on the wrong foot !!


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## Jake (24 Apr 2009)

No problem, a couple more posts and you'll be free!

Very tidy work by the way, very smart.


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## MickCheese (24 Apr 2009)

I bet that workshop is cold in the winter!  

Mick


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## CWatters (25 Apr 2009)

I thought about hiring a chain morticer but there aren't any locally and I don't have many to do. Have some spade bits and a chissel at the ready.

Unfortunately my building is going to have to wait a week as it looks like my gate will arrive first.


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## CWatters (26 Apr 2009)

EddieJ - I'm thinking of cladding my building in waney edge oak..

Do you find oak cladding shrinks much in length? 

How long are the planks you are using? They appear to be very long. Is there much of a premium for that length?


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## big soft moose (26 Apr 2009)

chris_d":3bel6aa3 said:


> Since I've yet to open the second sprung latch kit I'll heed your advice and swap it for the auto-lock catch type.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Chris



if they won't swap let me know as i have tonnes of those kicking about ( we buy them in hundreds at work) and i could sort you out with one for the cost of postage.


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## Grinding One (26 Apr 2009)

I had to raise a beam to install my overhead door on it was 12" wide 4 " thick and 18 ft long....I thought about how to lift it and came up to with this Idea .....I used two step ladders and my wife,we put it on the closes step I could handle then had the wife keep it stable there and moved to the other side,raised it the same height and moved over to the other side....I know ,I know but she couldn`t lift the weight on her side but she could keep it stable.I should say here our step ladders have steps on both sides and flat rungs to stand on.They are Little Giants ,A frame ladders that will extend.
This is how I got it up there tho....Worked great,no problems.


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## EddieJ (26 Apr 2009)

CWatters":11dm6tsg said:


> EddieJ - I'm thinking of cladding my building in waney edge oak..
> 
> Do you find oak cladding shrinks much in length?
> 
> How long are the planks you are using? They appear to be very long. Is there much of a premium for that length?



To be honest, I stay completely clear of oak cladding. The reason being that it would just cost me too much time and hassle to keep going back on jobs where boards have shrunk, twisted and generally just look plain nasty. Its not a material that I personally would recommend, but if you are still set on using it, then I would advise ply lining the outside of the frame first. The boards will shrink slightly in length, but obviously nowhere near as much as they are going to in width. I guess that if you intend to use waney edge, then none of the above may be of paramount concern, as ultimately you are after a natural looking appearance.
I wouldn't rule out using larch for the cladding, and this would be my material of choice when using waney edge. I'll try and get some photos for you this week of some new and weathered larch clad buildings. It's a bit orange to begin with, but it soon mellows down.  

In respect of the wood that is currently in my workshop, the project is a single storey extension on a listed property. 

Sole plates are 225mm x 100mm x 6300mm and 5500mm
Eaves beams are 175mm x 150mm same lengths as above
Tie beams are 175mm x 175mm
Posts are 175mm x 175mm and 175mm x 150mm
Studs are as above.
Principle rafters are 150mm x 150mm x 4300mm (that's going to be fun!)
common rafters are a stupid size of 115mm x 100mm 
The project hasn't been going too well though, because as usual the architect keeps changing things including dimensions, and I've now marked the wood up four times!! I'm just hoping that's its all going to fit now!  

As for paying premiums for long lengths, I'm fortunate enough that my workshops are based at a sawmill, so I'm kind of at an advantage when it comes to buying wood, but generally speaking at all sawmills around here, you may pay a two pound a cube more than normal for timber that is over 6000mm.

Let me know if you need any other help, as I'm always willing to help out if I can.


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## Night Train (26 Apr 2009)

Grinding One":3j3z537f said:


> I had to raise a beam to install my overhead door on it was 12" wide 4 " thick and 18 ft long....I thought about how to lift it and came up to with this Idea .....I used two step ladders and my wife,we put it on the closes step I could handle then had the wife keep it stable there and moved to the other side,raised it the same height and moved over to the other side....I know ,I know but she couldn`t lift the weight on her side but she could keep it stable.I should say here our step ladders have steps on both sides and flat rungs to stand on.They are Little Giants ,A frame ladders that will extend.
> This is how I got it up there tho....Worked great,no problems.


That's the same method I used to lift a stone lintel for a fireplace opening. The stone was 8' x 12" x 8" so quite heavy. I placed it on a 10' scaffold board and strapped it on tight and then lifted one end at a time up the ladder rungs until it was level with the top of the fire opening. I then unstrapped it and slid it across into position. 

I also moved some stone gateposts, 8' x 12" x 12", laid on a 2 wheel trolley that it balanced on. 

Moving a long, heavy oak beam I would use scaffold poles or equivalent. For lengthways movement I would use the poles just as rollers and for sideways movement I would have a long pole at each end and slide an end at a time until it was in position. Alternatively you could use a logging arch. 
I made one recently for moving some logs: 




When it is pulled the action lifts the front of the log off the ground making it easier to move. 

Lifting it could be achieved by using three legs, shear legs or whatever the local venacular calls it but one of these made of scaffold tubes or timber with a chain or hand winch.


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## RogerS (26 Apr 2009)

Colin

Have you got yourself a good bowsaw with a coarse blade? I made the mistake of using normal saws on my project  until I asked here if there was a better way!

Roger


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## CWatters (26 Apr 2009)

Hi Eddie - Thanks for the reply. I haven't totally ruled out larch but will decide later. My local sawmill (C N Spencer near Brigstock) seems to work mostly with oak though. I'm already planning to clad the walls with WBP plywood.


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## CWatters (26 Apr 2009)

RogerS":yxhxdcrf said:


> Colin
> 
> Have you got yourself a good bowsaw with a coarse blade? I made the mistake of using normal saws on my project  until I asked here if there was a better way!
> 
> Roger



Not yet but I'm working up a list for a trip to Screwfix. If you're listening Screwfix it's a good time to send me a 10% off voucher 

My worst mistake was burning up my Circular Saw trying to cut some railway sleepers. I was using the totally junk blade supplied with it. I didn't know about TCT blades then.


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## CWatters (26 Apr 2009)

Grinding One - I (well myself two mates and someones sister) once used a pair of step ladders to lift the engine out of a Herald . Bit of a struggle until we realised we'd still got an earth strap connected and were trying to lift the whole front of the car.


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## Grinding One (27 Apr 2009)

:lol: :lol: Thats a good one.....


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## milkman (30 Apr 2009)

Drills: If this isn't very old news by now a lot of framers I've worked with use this model



a Hitachi D13. Works well with larger augers for morticing.


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## MikeG. (30 Apr 2009)

EddieJ":3ne20ixp said:


> The project hasn't been going too well though, because as usual the architect keeps changing things including dimensions, and I've now marked the wood up four times!! I'm just hoping that's its all going to fit now!



Oi!!! Don't tar us all with the same brush! I have never, ever, not once, changed any part of a project once contracts have been let.

The job I have just put out to tender has a beam 475x250x5.3m. I don't think they'll be picking that up on step-ladders!!

Mike


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## CWatters (16 May 2009)

My oak has arrived and I have another question.... How deep should my M&T be... 

What I'm try to assemble will be two 6" square posts with a bit of 8" x 6" across the top (think football goal shape). The posts will be M&T into the top beam.

My instinct says the M&T should be about 6" deep rather than right through the 8" beam, but I've just discovered my chisels aren't long enough to go 6" deep  If 6" is about right can anyone recommend somewhere where I can get a longer chisel about 40mm wide?

I have so much to learn sob


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## AndyT (17 May 2009)

Full size framing chisels seem to be a bit dear if you only need to do two mortices, (http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/TIR60001)





£129.95

but these might do: http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20433





£13 !


Andy


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## milkman (18 May 2009)

I use a sorby framing chisels and they're fine, 1.5" and 2". The ones Rutland are exhorbitantly selling look like a Barr Quarton clone. If I were to get a chisel that good I'd just get a Barr Quarton itself and have done with it.
Those all-metal chisels are good too although the guy I met who had them said they needed a lot of work to get up to scratch. For what you need seems perfect. Better are the ones with an 'L' shaped handle.

Tenon length/ mortice depth: 6" seems very deep to me. The upwards tenon you get on jowl posts or studs is more in the region of 4" or so. Actually the tenon is usually 3 3/4" and the mortice 4".
If its a horizontal tenon carrying a beam then bigger yes but yours are really only locating the cross beam.
What do the others think?


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## CWatters (18 May 2009)

Thanks, I've ordered a Sorby off the internet. Will probably be able to find other uses for it when this job is done.

Have cut the tenons and it was a delight. I've not worked green oak before but it was very easy. You don't get any crumbling or bits brreaking off like you do working soft woods. The saw doesn't jam (even a cheap one from Homebase) and using a chisel across the end grain to clean up the sholders was like working hard cheese - you can cut really thin shavings.


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## milkman (19 May 2009)

Are you going for the 3 3/4 tenons? Save you a lot of work on the mortices. Also a big morticing chisel's useful


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## CWatters (19 May 2009)

I've cut them 6" at the moment but could shorten them. 

My top beam (8" x 6" x 18ft) sprung quite a bit when it was cut so I'm also trying to decide if I can cut it down a bit or if I should replace it before cutting the mortices. The bend is mostly at one end so trimming the bottom edge straight(er) might be an option if my CS is upto it. The top will be hidden so a bit of taper won't show and it's plenty strong enough. Decisions, decisions.

Rain has stopped play at the moment. I'm using a tent as a workshop when I can but the big stuff doesn't fit so it's under tarps.


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## milkman (19 May 2009)

how much has it sprung out by? Will there be enough weight on it to straighten it out?
If its not much then your timber framing scribe work comes in! Thats the fun bit!

Are you pegging the tenons?


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## RogerS (20 May 2009)

And when you're up there chipping away at your mortices, Colin. Take a moment to stop and think that the sound you are making has been heard throughout this land for hundreds of years!


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## CWatters (20 May 2009)

milkman":37ccmjx5 said:


> how much has it sprung out by? Will there be enough weight on it to straighten it out?
> If its not much then your timber framing scribe work comes in! Thats the fun bit!?



Looks like about 2" but I haven't been able to get near it due to the rain. I doubt it will bend straight under the weight but I was going to put it that way up. 



> Are you pegging the tenons?



Was going to yes. Thats one reason I was thinking about the length of the tennon. Didn't want the peg too near the end. Perhaps I'm making too much of a fuss about this. I've only got the two to do!


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## RogerS (22 May 2009)

Bit late in the day, Colin, but did you consider buying a chain morticer for the duration and then sticking it on ebay? 

That was my philosophy when I renovated the cottage. For example, I bought a SIP 12" sliding mitre saw for £189 including stand and sold it two years later for £150. So two years use for £39 isn't bad IMO.


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## milkman (23 May 2009)

chain morticer… expensive for two tenons. Those mortices, the 4" ones not the through fellas, won't kill you.
Peg hole/holes should be offset about an inch from the mortice face (think its that… go and find an old frame an measure it) that'll leave plenty of 'relish' on the tenon to prevent it splitting out. When you mark your holes on the tenon nip them a mill or two towards the tenon shoulder. The resulting offset will pull the joint tighter when you peg up.
Another method, useful for dowels rather than drawn pegs is to strap the joint tightly together with haulage straps and then drill the holes and peg. This one if you're able to rear the assembly into position.


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