# Router Table Box/Finger joint jig



## Moonsafari69 (12 Sep 2016)

Can anyone recommend a 'good' Box/Finger joint jig that they've used on a router table?

I've looked at the Incra I-Box and Rockler thus far, but before I make the call I'd like to hear some advice that's been tried and tested. I have a Kreg table if that helps any.

Or, if you think a shop made jig is better let me know.

Cheers.


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## Glynne (12 Sep 2016)

I've not used one (don't like finger joints) but Steve Maskery of this forum has a home made one on YouTube. Given that his DVDs on Bandsaws & Tablesaws are well thought of, you might want to have a look before you part with any cash.


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## Moonsafari69 (12 Sep 2016)

Thanks for that Glynne, much appreciated. The video of the build on YouTube looks good but I see the DVD is £20 to get the full plans. 

Question to all:
Has anyone on this forum built one that I could have a look at in the flesh? Thanks in advance if you can help.


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## MattRoberts (12 Sep 2016)

I built one as a prototype, but didn't like it personally. You need to hog out a lot of material with the router, and you need to use a sacrificial back board to avoid massive tear out. I found it a bit unforgiving in the precision department. 

I have since downloaded the plans for John Heisz' advanced box joint jig from ibuildit.ca - as this can use the tablesaw to make multiple cuts rather than the router, and seems to be pretty precise by all accounts.


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## Moonsafari69 (12 Sep 2016)

Hi Matt, interesting you say that. Here is the wrong reason for me looking at the router jig instead of a TS jig. Basically my router table set-up is better than my TS. This is a space limitation so unlikely to change to be honest. It could well be that I'm barking up the wrong tree I guess. I was hoping that there would be a resounding solution for the router set-up but it looks like I've got more thinking to do... Thanks :?


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## MattRoberts (12 Sep 2016)

Not sure why space is an issue - the jig for one is arguably much the same size as the other?


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## Moonsafari69 (12 Sep 2016)

Not space for the jig itself, space in my workshop. I have a decent kreg router table, but a less good folding Axi table saw to save on floor space. As the router table is the better of the two I was initially looking for a jig for that.


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## Glynne (12 Sep 2016)

Lots of other (free) plans out there. Just search for Router Finger (or Box) Joint Jig.

Having said that I don't like finger joints, it's just occurred to me that I made a very simple finger joint jig to make wooden hinges for one of my jewellery boxes!
Mine is based on 
http://www.routerforums.com/attachments ... eplans.pdf


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## transatlantic (12 Sep 2016)

Cutting finger joints on a table without a dado looks like a lot of work. 

Probably a horrible idea but I wonder if you could tilt the jig so that you could cut wider slots with just a normal kerf blade?


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## Moonsafari69 (12 Sep 2016)

Transatlantic, this is the issue. I bet if this box/finger joint question was asked in say USA the answer would be 'use a dado blade' 100% of the time. So, I'm fairly new to flat woodworking (predominantly lathe work previously) and I'm a little surprised there isn't a more definite answer to cutting box joints easily. I guess my question should be rephrased such as (other than cutting by hand) how does everyone cut box joints?


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## MattRoberts (12 Sep 2016)

Well you could use a grooving blade to achieve the same sort of result


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## Eric The Viking (12 Sep 2016)

Steve's jig works well, but...

I've had a torrid time doing box joints on the router table. To the extent that I'll be rebuilding my table saw ASAP just so I can do them that way instead 

The worst problem, by far, is tearout. Don't even think about trying it in softwood - I was stupid enough to do that, and wasted a lot of time on it.

Frankly, if it's a one off, by the time you've made the jig and got it working, you could have made several boxes by hand - it's not that hard to do and a lot easier than dovetails.


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## Moonsafari69 (12 Sep 2016)

Eric The Viking":oo1un27a said:


> Steve's jig works well, but...



Thanks for the heads-up Eric, this is exactly the type of feedback I'm after. One mans pain is another mans wisdom...

So, once you've rebuilt the TS, what jig will you be using on that for box joints?

Cheers.


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## Eric The Viking (12 Sep 2016)

I'll make one - something with a leadscrew on a sled, I think. 

Metric studding is great, as 10mm has a 1mm pitch (I _think_ that's correct!), so it's easy to make something you can calibrate quickly. 

I haven't had the saw running for a while, so don't know what the kerf is (and I have a couple of different thickness blades too).

But seriously: get a cheap Japanese saw with a rip-cutting blade and a fretsaw and a sharp chisel, and try it - it's pretty fast.


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## monkeybiter (12 Sep 2016)

Eric The Viking":1isupdt9 said:


> 10mm has a 1mm pitch (I _think_ that's correct



1.5mm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

Threaded bar leadscrew on table saw gets my vote too.


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## Moonsafari69 (12 Sep 2016)

Thanks Eric
Thanks monkeybiter 

So a Matthias Wandel type jig then?, preferably a simplified version in any case. With less gears at least. I suppose with a thread pitch of 1.5mm then just using a crank handle on the sled would work. I see my initial router table sled qstn has quite definitely turned into a table saw sled answer. Am glad now I didn't make a rash purchase as I was close to doing that yesterday. More googling to be done.....


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## transatlantic (13 Sep 2016)

So is the only problem with the router option the tear out? If thats the case, couldn't you just only make the cuts half way through, flip the board (or jig) and come through from the other side? Sure it'll be a pain, but it has to be quicker than using the tablesaw.


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## wcndave (13 Sep 2016)

I made one where you cut a slot on RT, then move that over a finger, and then move along. Worked ok but was a bit hit and miss at times. I now use a WoodRat for those joints, and it works perfectly, you don't even need to mark / measure. However it may be a bit pricey unless you're doing lots, or also doing dovetails etc. Maybe watch the video on it, interesting in its own right. https://vimeo.com/3598302


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## Eric The Viking (13 Sep 2016)

transatlantic":2e2l88di said:


> So is the only problem with the router option the tear out? If thats the case, couldn't you just only make the cuts half way through, flip the board (or jig) and come through from the other side? Sure it'll be a pain, but it has to be quicker than using the tablesaw.



In short, no, you can't. Or at least you won't solve the tearout problem that way.

Think about the cutter at various points during the slotting process:


It enters the wood going sideways. If it doesn't have a razor-edged corner, it will scuff and tearout at the top of the notch. You can minimise this by "marking out" with a sharp blade, equivalent to the spurs on a plane, but that's extra work.

When it's gone in one radius deep, one side is pulling fibres directly out of the stock (the "climb-cutting" side). and there's usually no 'backer board' at the front (although you could add one, I suppose).

At the back, it emerges going sideways, and the non-climb-cutting side is always going to pull at the fibres until the cutter diameter goes past the end of the stock. You can mitigate this with the backer board of the jig, obviously, but after only a few notches, everything gets a bit looser and voila! Tearout.

Regarding flipping the jig: I made a jig to cut box-jointed octagons. It was a nightmare to do, and the results (admittedly in softwood) weren't pretty. 

That was mirrored, so you cut one end normally (pushing right-to-left across the table), and the other end in reverse. BUT... you need the registration pins on the "fence" side of the table* at both ends. 

On the "normal" end, the cutter is pushing the stock towards the pins... but on the cack-handed end, it's pushing the stock out of registration - a disaster! I ended up with a long 8mm bolt clamping the stock edgewise against the registration pin, and even then it was slow and awkward.

Frankly I could just have cut them by hand, and they wouldn't have been much worse for all that.

E.

PS: mods to that jig could havbe been made to improve it - I have a better design in my head - but I lost interest. Might resurrect it at some point in the future though.

*obviously no fence needed in this context. I mean the side furthest away from you.


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## monkeybiter (13 Sep 2016)

transatlantic":1ym2hvg3 said:


> but it has to be quicker than using the tablesaw.



IMHO a table saw cuts much quicker. With the RT you can pick the cutter width to suit the slot width, but then you can also pick a groover for the same reason, so only one pass needed.

The finger joint jig will be essentially the same regardless of which machine you use. 

With regard to jig type, one references each slot from the previous slot using a peg type insert on the jig [to match the saw kerf]. Steve Maskery's jig is very good in that the relative peg position is adjustable to remove any build error, but this type of jig still allows a compounding error which can throw the finger alignment out with longer runs.

The leadscrew type jig references all cuts from the same metal screw thread, you don't get alignment errors unless you use it incorrectly.


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## transatlantic (13 Sep 2016)

monkeybiter":33nvhh1s said:


> transatlantic":33nvhh1s said:
> 
> 
> > but it has to be quicker than using the tablesaw.
> ...



groover?


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## MattRoberts (13 Sep 2016)

I'd still recommend this - it uses a threaded rod for accuracy but no need to mess around with gears like the matthias one. 

http://www.ibuildit.ca/Sales/sales-2.html


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## monkeybiter (13 Sep 2016)

transatlantic":327nvkaq said:


> groover?



Wide blade for the table saw that cuts a flat bottomed slot, picked for it's width. I chose a 6mm, but I can't find the web page to link to at the moment.


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## monkeybiter (13 Sep 2016)

MattRoberts":m4p5fi5s said:


> I'd still recommend this - it uses a threaded rod for accuracy but no need to mess around with gears like the matthias one.
> 
> http://www.ibuildit.ca/Sales/sales-2.html



I've considered making a tweaked version of this, using a threaded bar for accuracy instead of his wooden reference piece and wooden locating key.

Mine currently [almost falling apart] just has a graduated handwheel on the end of the leadscrew, allows me to use any kerf as the travel is accurately set. Matthias Wandell's gears seem to me to be a bit of a gimmick in that application.


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## Moonsafari69 (13 Sep 2016)

monkeybiter":2bp2c50o said:


> Mine currently [almost falling apart] just has a graduated handwheel on the end of the leadscrew, allows me to use any kerf as the travel is accurately set. Matthias Wandell's gears seem to me to be a bit of a gimmick in that application.



monkeybiter, any chance of a photo of your set-up?

Cheers.


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## MattRoberts (13 Sep 2016)

monkeybiter":1tg61up2 said:


> Matthias Wandell's gears seem to me to be a bit of a gimmick in that application.



Grooving blades here http://bivenmachinerysales.co.uk/index. ... =Grooving+

I don't think the gears are gimmicky, but you need to have different great combinations for different widths, which seems fiddly to me...


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## transatlantic (13 Sep 2016)

MattRoberts":1ee00u7x said:


> monkeybiter":1ee00u7x said:
> 
> 
> > Matthias Wandell's gears seem to me to be a bit of a gimmick in that application.
> ...



awesome! didn't know these existed. It's no dado set, but 6mm is alright and they're cheap!


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## Moonsafari69 (13 Sep 2016)

Something like this perhaps, with a threaded rod for referencing?

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Build-a-Variable-Box-Joint-Jig/


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## MattRoberts (13 Sep 2016)

transatlantic":540epyeo said:


> awesome! didn't know these existed. It's no dado set, but 6mm is alright and they're cheap!



A word of caution - be very careful to check that the blade has full clearance at all heights in your saw - the last thing you want is to raise the blade and catch a tooth. Also, it's well worth making a zero clearance insert specifically for it, and using a sacrificial backing board to avoid tear out


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## custard (14 Sep 2016)

Moonsafari69":18f4u5z2 said:


> Can anyone recommend a 'good' Box/Finger joint jig that they've used on a router table?



I've used the Gifkins Jig to cut finger joints on a router table. The downsides are that you can't size the fingers to suit the workpiece (so you have to design the workpiece around the jig), there are limitations to gang cutting so it's slower than I'd like, and it's not particularly cheap. 

On the plus side with sharp cutters and a carefully set up jig it's extremely accurate, producing consistent and tear out free joints that are finish ready and fully up to professional standards.

https://www.classichandtools.com/acatal ... ndard.html

I don't cut that many finger joints, if I did more I'd certainly invest in the dedicated tooling to machine them ganged up on the spindle moulder, but for the two or three times a year I need it I'm reasonably happy with the Gifkins Jig.


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## Eric The Viking (15 Sep 2016)

Thanks Custard. It looks like a sensible idea (if pricey!). I can see how you might get much better results than with a simple sled.


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## Moonsafari69 (15 Sep 2016)

custard":2wnul5v5 said:


> I've used the Gifkins Jig to cut finger joints on a router table.



That's a tad outside of my budget but interesting as I've never heard of it before.


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## Steve Maskery (15 Sep 2016)

Just to be clear, the jig I show on YouTube is not on any of my Workshop Essentials DVDs, it's just a freebie out of the goodness of my heart. 

TBH, I don't understand the concern about tearout. You can get tearout on any cut if it is not supported, SM, TS or RT. In all cases the cutters need to be sharp and the workpiece should be supported by a sacrificial board to prevent it.

BTW, if you make one using a lead screw, M6 has a thread of 1mm per revolution.


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## Moonsafari69 (15 Sep 2016)

Steve Maskery":2hb76d1a said:


> Just to be clear, the jig I show on YouTube is not on any of my Workshop Essentials DVDs, it's just a freebie out of the goodness of my heart.



How much have you used the sled Steve? Would you still consider it worthwhile for box joints?

Cheers.


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## Steve Maskery (15 Sep 2016)

Just to be clear I was talking blokes previously. Apparently I included it on one of the tablesaw DVDs. Why I put a RT jig on a TS DVD I cannot say, but I was losing my marbles by then anyway, so nothing I did surprises me very much.

I don't have that particular jig anymore, it was amongst the stuff that got stolen, but anyway most of my MDF jigs didn't survive the barn very well and have had to be remade. Plus, I made a new RT top, which would make the original jig useless, even if I still had it.

But having said all that...

I shall have no hesitation in making a new one when I have a need for it, and I shall change nothing at all about its design. It worked perfectly then and so why change it?

I do take the point about cumulative error, but I never found it to be a problem. Of course, if you are using it to make a blanket chest or something large like that, then that aspect becomes more important, but for smallish work, like drawers and boxes, it was never an issue. It just worked.


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## Moonsafari69 (15 Sep 2016)

Steve Maskery":qap4o28x said:


> ...but I was losing my marbles by then anyway, so nothing I did surprises me very much



Glad said marbles have since been successfully recovered. Good feedback actually so thanks for that. If you've had a jig, lost it, and would build another that says plenty. The threaded rod approach does seem to be the way forward.

Cheers.


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## Steve Maskery (15 Sep 2016)

Ah. I should point out that mine just not use a threaded rod, it uses a peg incrementally. I know that many people like the threaded rod principle for its accuracy, but personally I think it is just a bit unnecessarily complex. I prefer the simplicity of mine. Once it has been correctly adjusted, it doesn't move and will always work (in that RT, with the same cutter).

I'm not knocking the threaded bar route, I just think mine is easier and quicker, that's all. Both are capable of producing excellent results.


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## monkeybiter (15 Sep 2016)

Hi Steve, it was me who referred to the cumulative error; due to the widespread adoption of the method you have used it clearly must work, and the fine adjustment you added makes a jig-saving amount of difference, however I think I must have been pushing the timber against the peg inconsistently because I did get alignment errors hence my choice of the leadscrew method to engineer ME out. It also means there's less to do when swapping finger spacing/kerf.


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## wcndave (15 Sep 2016)

I would have thought the pertinent part is that the jig was good enough for someone to choose to steal it!


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## memzey (16 Sep 2016)

I've done box joints using a very simple home made jig and dado stack in the saw bench. Does anyone else do the same?


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## MattRoberts (16 Sep 2016)

A dado stack, a dado stack... My kingdom for a dado stack


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## custard (17 Sep 2016)

MattRoberts":128ohv14 said:


> A dado stack, a dado stack... My kingdom for a dado stack



You probably think this heresy, but I've got one and yet hardly ever use it. I know some people swear by them for tenoning, but for me they fall between two stools. 

-If I've got loads of tenons I'll take the time to set up the spindle moulder with twin tenoning heads and proper tenoning guarding, then cut the shoulders and cheeks together in a single pass. Clean and precise, but there's maybe an hour or so set up time and it'll need a few test components.

-If there's just a few tenons I'll cut the shoulders on the table saw and cut the cheeks on the bandsaw with spacer blocks. Maybe ten minutes set up time, but a bit of cleaning up usually required on each component

-If I'm doing angled tenons for say a chair then I'll build a fixture to hold the workpiece in the correct orientation, load the spindle moulder with a pair of thin grooving cutters, and cut the cheeks that way. Then cut the shoulders by hand and settle down for a bit of scribing and fitting to achieve a perfect glue line.

As for rebates, okay, but no real advantage over a router table or spindle moulder. In fact you can use a scribing head and power feed on the spindle moulder for a faster, cleaner, safer rebating job all round.

Maybe all the dado stack love actually dates back to the days when many workshops had a table saw, a thicknesser, and not much else?


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## MattRoberts (17 Sep 2016)

Sure there are other methods, but surely it's the easiest and fastest method of hogging out a large amount of material. 

I suspect the amount of American woodworking videos on YouTube has an affect on the appeal!


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## transatlantic (17 Sep 2016)

MattRoberts":2p4nrn8f said:


> Sure there are other methods, but surely it's the easiest and fastest method of hogging out a large amount of material.
> 
> I suspect the amount of American woodworking videos on YouTube has an affect on the appeal!



I guess it depends on your saw. I know a lot of them are very fiddly to change the blade on, or so I've heard. Where as I would have thought a spindle molder would be easier?


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## memzey (17 Sep 2016)

I don't have a spindle molder but the sliding table on my old Wadkin dimension saw pulls out a good few inches making blade changes a doddle. I know Custard isn't a fan of them as he's mentioned before (and to be honest he's probably forgotten more about woodworking than I will ever know so his opinion carries a lot more weight than mine) but I find the dado stack to be the easiest, quickest and most accurate way of milling rebates, housings and groves at my disposal. It's also excellent for when you want to waste away material for half laps as the speed and repeatability mean that as long as your stock is uniform in thickness your half laps will always be flush.


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## pops92 (2 Nov 2016)

Folowing this thread with interest as I am halfway through finishing a variation on this one http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Build-a-Variable-Box-Joint-Jig/
When saw the piece about grooving blades,which I knew nothing about. As my bench saw takes 254mm dia and can only find 150mm dia will these work?
Silly question I suppose but this is new stuff to me.
I was thinking wider blade fewer passes with a single blade would I be right or not.
Realise big gap around blade.
Opinions please?


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## monkeybiter (2 Nov 2016)

Your TS will take blades up to 254mm, so a 150mm groover will be OK as long as the spindle diameter matches. Mine is a 305mm and I use a 150mm groover.


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## pops92 (2 Nov 2016)

That's great thanks,yeah the bore is 30mm on mine the same as the grooved blades that were shown on an earlier thread.
Never would of realised these existed without you knowledgeable guys on here.


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## woodbrains (2 Nov 2016)

pops92":12999oyn said:


> Folowing this thread with interest as I am halfway through finishing a variation on this one http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Build-a-Variable-Box-Joint-Jig/
> When saw the piece about grooving blades,which I knew nothing about. As my bench saw takes 254mm dia and can only find 150mm dia will these work?
> Silly question I suppose but this is new stuff to me.
> I was thinking wider blade fewer passes with a single blade would I be right or not.
> ...



Hello,

Possibly not, in fact, since the peripheral speed of the smaller blade will probably not be fast enough. A 10 inch saw has its speed optimised for that size blade, and within reason a slightly smaller or larger one can be used. But generally I would say an 8 inch is as small as I would go. Poor cutting performance is likely and tear out increases with reduction in diameter. A 6 inch blade is not likely to have enough teeth at the speed your saw spins. For box joints, a ripping blade is what is needed and these have even less teeth. I run 6 inch groovers on a spindle at 6800 rpm.


Mike.


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## pops92 (2 Nov 2016)

Ok with you on that, do you know if they do 254mm grooving disc's as I am having a problem finding them?


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## Steve Maskery (2 Nov 2016)

I've never seen a 10" dado stack, but both Freud and Woodford do 8" (200mm) dado stacks that are well respected, provided you can use them in a way that does not foul HSE guidelines. It is possible, it's not easy. 

I have the Freud, I believe Myfordman has both.


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## woodbrains (2 Nov 2016)

pops92":yl0sixce said:


> Ok with you on that, do you know if they do 254mm grooving disc's as I am having a problem finding them?



Hello,

Since they are primarily spindle tooling, possibly not, and may be very expensive if they exist. 

If you are thinking of a groover with a kerf wider than a standard saw blade, then I think you are stuck with spindle groovers. However you can get TS blades with a flat top tooth form in a rip blade. Obviously you can get these in any size you need to suit your saw. They are capable of cutting (superb) tenons on the TS with the right jig which you will probably find even more useful. I have a Trend one which I use for grooving drawer sides with perfectly flat bottoms and tenons with dead flat shoulders. Since my TS will not take a dado stack, I use a incra ibox jig on the router table. They will give perfectly tear out free joints, since you can place spelch boards front and back of the work piece. I have used shop made jigs, too.
My advice would be to keep them simple. Geared leadscrews seems unnecessary. The idea is the comb joints self jig by sitting in a peg with the right spacing away from the cutter to form the next slot.they are dead easy to make and never go out of adjustment. Can't see the point in being over complicated here.
Mike.


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## MattRoberts (2 Nov 2016)

pops92":3a1ij34r said:


> Folowing this thread with interest as I am halfway through finishing a variation on this one http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Build-a-Variable-Box-Joint-Jig/
> When saw the piece about grooving blades,which I knew nothing about. As my bench saw takes 254mm dia and can only find 150mm dia will these work?
> Silly question I suppose but this is new stuff to me.
> I was thinking wider blade fewer passes with a single blade would I be right or not.
> ...



I have the 150mm grooving blade I linked earlier running in my 10" (250mm) tablesaw. 

Obviously you get a very small cutting depth (roughly 20mm - 30mm off the top of my head). Just be very careful to check for full clearance as I mentioned earlier


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## pops92 (2 Nov 2016)

Is the supplier you mentioned earlier in the thread the on you use Matt?


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## MattRoberts (3 Nov 2016)

Yeah, http://bivenmachinerysales.co.uk


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## pops92 (3 Nov 2016)

Thanks Matt 
Got your PM very helpful should have my jig finished by Sunday so see how it goes. :? :?


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## MattRoberts (4 Nov 2016)

Great stuff - let us know how you get on. And be safe!


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## Moonsafari69 (4 Nov 2016)

Hi pops92, would be great to see some pics when you have finished the build. You're down the road from me so could pop over to have a peek when all's finished if that works for you?


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## pops92 (7 Nov 2016)

Here's some photos now it's as good as finished.Only have 2 clamping nobs left to make.
Works well considering it's my first attempt,just cot a single blade finger slot to try it out.


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## MattRoberts (7 Nov 2016)

Looks great, nice one!


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## pops92 (7 Nov 2016)

Thanks Matt 
but I have that problem with the kerf?


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## Moonsafari69 (7 Nov 2016)

The jig looks great, nice build pops.


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