# Friendship vs Greed



## beech1948 (22 Mar 2020)

I've had a bit of a shock this morning. A very good friend whom I have known for over 28 years asked me to visit him and help in his workshop doing some heavy lifting. 

He asked me in for a coffee after and showed me his "stockpile" room. A 14ftx11ft bedroom converted with wood shelving and crammed to the ceiling and all over the floor with canned food stuff and toilet rolls, and disinfectant etc etc etc.

I was shocked and almost breathless at his obvious pride in his achievement.

I was revolted by this display of selfishness and greed. He had at least 6 months worth of stuff if not 9 months. He had been shopping 3-5 times a day for the past 6 weeks.

I walked away knowing that my wife and I had not stockpiled anything, we seemed to be getting along OK with occasional shortages. I felt somewhat angry at this friend and my wife and I talked about just dropping the moron.

Wondering what you would choose to do.


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## Trevanion (22 Mar 2020)

Where does your friend live? We could do some "wealth distribution" :wink:

On a side note, a couple of local pubs that have shut down over the weekend have been robbed while no one was about. People will take advantage of anything.


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## MikeG. (22 Mar 2020)

Did you confront your friend? 

Us English hate causing a fuss with friends and family, and tend to avoid confrontation and argument. I don't hold by the same strictures, and a number of my friends are the same. If that had been a friend of mine I would have said how sad and disappointed I was to see such selfishness from someone I thought to be above that sort of thing. Friendship can survive a bit of honesty, generally, and if it can't, then it wasn't worth the candle in the first place.


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## That would work (22 Mar 2020)

Let's hope he is not an obsessive regarding dates and a lot of it does not get chucked away. I suspect there will be a disgusting amount of good food thrown away in the coming weeks or months.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Mar 2020)

He might escape the coronavirus, but a little botulism from a blown can wouldn't go amiss.


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## Marineboy (22 Mar 2020)

That would work":k8ar6y07 said:


> Let's hope he is not an obsessive regarding dates and a lot of it does not get chucked away. I suspect there will be a disgusting amount of good food thrown away in the coming weeks or months.



Refuse collectors are saying that it’s already happening. Wasted food in bins, much of it unopened, is at post-Christmas levels.


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## That would work (22 Mar 2020)

Some people are just plain turnip wits.
Replace the vegetable with any expletive of your choice.


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## loftyhermes (22 Mar 2020)

What really drove it home for me about selfish buying was last Friday I went shopping to Tesco to buy dairy and soya free food for grandson (who's dairy, soya intolerant) was that because everything else had been bought they went on to take all the free from food as well. Normally the free from shelves are always full so now we're struggling to find something for the poor lad to eat. Tesco who have the best free from selection locally had a 3 item limit but the shelves were still empty, how does that work?


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## Stanleymonkey (22 Mar 2020)

Call him or send him a message / email. Just say that you are uncomfortable with what he has done.

No facts or evidence that he will need that much based on any other countries so far.

He might have been doom-mongering with similar types on other forums and without a sane voice to bring you back down to ground you can easily get carried away.

Maybe suggest some of the near to use by date stuff could go to food banks where it would be snapped up and used within days and not wasted?

Good luck - I don't envy you.


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## Geoff_S (22 Mar 2020)

As friends get older some of them get weirder :roll:


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## marcros (22 Mar 2020)

It is like "debating" on here. Whatever you say won't change his mind. Whatever he says (if anything) to justify it won't change your mind. I wouldn't bother, just reflect your thoughts the next time he asks for help.


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## Trainee neophyte (22 Mar 2020)

I am ambivalent about this, to say the least. I see it as my job to provide water, food and shelter to the family - it's the absolute basics. It doesn't help that I have already lived through one financial crisis, so this next one should be a doddle, even though it looks like it will be very different.

Today I have learned that if I want to leave my house I must apply for permission, and there are only a few reasons why that permission will be granted. Does that concentrate the thinking at all? It doesn't matter how well-stacked the supermarket is if you aren't allowed to go there. 

If you go hungry because you took a moral stance, does that make you less hungry? If I were seeing shortages, I would want to stock up. What is interesting is that Greece doesn't seem to have any panic buying, at least in my area. I don't know if this is because Greeks are incapable of thinking about tomorrow, or because they all, as a matter of course, have huge stocks of food at all times. They actually do - it's a perfectly normal thing to buy 10kg of meat, just to have it in the freezer.

Whilst we are on the subject of shortages, the lack of plastic Chinese tat is just about to feed through - get it while you can, I think. Or would that be morally reprehensible?

The final question to ask is do you believe that hoarders should have their stocks appropriated for the good of all?


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## Blackswanwood (22 Mar 2020)

Unfortunately TN here in the UK the only reason there are perceived shortages is the hoarding that a small but still significant portion of the population are engaging in.


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## Bm101 (22 Mar 2020)




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## Trainee neophyte (22 Mar 2020)

Blackswanwood":24otyf4x said:


> Unfortunately TN here in the UK the only reason there are perceived shortages is the hoarding that a small but still significant portion of the population are engaging in.



I quite understand that, but there is still a shortage. I read something today, entirely unsubstantiated, that suggests that supermarkets have 3 days supplies on hand, and no more. Their shelves are their storage, for the most part - they need warehousing sufficient to get stock off the lorry, and checked into the system, for it then to be wheeled out on to the shop floor.

The central warehousing for the each store also has 3 days warehousing space - the same just in time system which depends upon suppliers delivering regularly to the depot. Upset this delicate dance, and it doesn't just take 3 days, or even 6 days to get back on track - it can be up to a month, because there is no slack in the system which can used to ramp up supply.

To be blunt, it doesn't matter why there are shortages - it matters that there are shortages. At this point it is probably too late because everything has run short already, but better to be frowned upon for hoarding than wandering in the garden looking for dock leaves.


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## Blackswanwood (22 Mar 2020)

As you say TN … unsubstantiated.


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## Inspector (22 Mar 2020)

Since "Social Distancing" means staying at home and away from people I wouldn't have helped and never known what he was doing in the first place. His going around to gather supplies has put him in contact with more potential infected people, possibly catching it and spreading it more to boot. Maybe even you.

Pete


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## Trainee neophyte (22 Mar 2020)

Blackswanwood":1fgnbq55 said:


> As you say TN … unsubstantiated.



Do you have the logistics data for UK supermarkets? Not a snide dig - I certainly don't. I once worked for a white goods outlet during my career-change, so I know the basics of how deliveries, orders and restocking works in the real world (not as well as you might think, in other words).


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## selectortone (22 Mar 2020)

Trainee neophyte":2j6iz6v9 said:


> I read something today, entirely unsubstantiated, that suggests that supermarkets have 3 days supplies on hand, and no more.



Lost for words at that. Possibly the most irresponsible post I've ever read on this forum. 

Some of us, including me, have vulnerable relatives who are self-isolating and are very frightened by the situation. You should take some responsibility and refrain from spreading "entirely unsubstantiated" (your words) rumours.


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## AES (22 Mar 2020)

Yup, I second the above comment "T n". Along with your earlier IMO very silly comments in this thread along the lines of "I can panic better than you can".

Yes, of course we all have a ("duty"?) to look after our family, but as my old man used to say "There's a difference between scratching yer (A-R-S- bottom) and tearing lumps out of it."


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## Blackswanwood (22 Mar 2020)

Trainee neophyte":3cs336jr said:


> Blackswanwood":3cs336jr said:
> 
> 
> > As you say TN … unsubstantiated.
> ...



No I don’t. Neither do you though so why start pumping half @rsed theories that the supply chain is failing?

What I do know though is that the government, supermarkets and suppliers have all said several times that the supply chain is secure. The problem is selfish muppets clearing the shelves when there is no need to do so.

This is a time where people need to behave responsibly.


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## beech1948 (22 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":3uqxz2ky said:


> Did you confront your friend?
> 
> Us English hate causing a fuss with friends and family, and tend to avoid confrontation and argument. I don't hold by the same strictures, and a number of my friends are the same. If that had been a friend of mine I would have said how sad and disappointed I was to see such selfishness from someone I thought to be above that sort of thing. Friendship can survive a bit of honesty, generally, and if it can't, then it wasn't worth the candle in the first place.



Not yet. I'm still considering but am erring on the side of confrontation. I was a bit shocked to be honest at seeing all this stuff in one place. I'm seeing him again on Wednesday so will wait until then.


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## ColeyS1 (22 Mar 2020)

I'm debating whether to venture out for milk ham and bread in a couple days when it runs out. I can live without both but would only be a short journey and 5-10 minutes in the local shop. A couple 5 minute visits a week would be comfy or would buying enough food for 7-10 days be a better choice to lessen the chance of catching it? I want to do my part at preventing catching it or passing on to others but I do rely on 4 slices of bread a day and milk with my coffee. 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## beech1948 (22 Mar 2020)

This friends behavior got me thinking. I have today sent an email and written a letter to the CEO of Tesco to ask them to restrict sales per family unit to £100 per trolley per week. I'm not expecting any action but felt it was needed bearing in mind the NHS staff/vulnerable/disabled/autistic etc etc etc.


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## Sawdust Sam (22 Mar 2020)

ColeyS1":hppgcwbo said:


> I'm debating whether to venture out for milk ham and bread in a couple days when it runs out. I can live without both but would only be a short journey and 5-10 minutes in the local shop. A couple 5 minute visits a week would be comfy or would buying enough food for 7-10 days be a better choice to lessen the chance of catching it? I want to do my part at preventing catching it or passing on to others but I do rely on 4 slices of bread a day and milk with my coffee.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



Are none of your local shops offering delivery services, a fair few are around our way. Even taxi firms are offering to deliver based on one way fare. It’s not s if they will have many passengers.

Also some local shops offer order and pay over the phone then drive over and they put your stuff in your boot for you and you drive away.

Perhaps give them a ring and ask.


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## sunnybob (22 Mar 2020)

Cyprus has reacted quickly and strongly, locking down the whole island well before most other countries. But there is no sign of panic buying anywhere. My wife went to a supermarket yesterday, only to be flattered by the staff asking if she was old enough to go in on the "old age pensioners" slot, yes, she easily qualifies. She hadnt even realised that was happening
she bought what we needed for several days, and left, A very pleasant experience for her.

I can easily understand buying extras, say for 2 weeks instead of 1, but I cant see or understand the need to have 6 months supply of anything, because as said, its the panic buying that will cause the shortages.
Please tell your hoarder friend that some toilet rolls sent to my daughter, who is not only a nurse but has two primary school age children to look after, and is rapidly running out of them, would be appreciated.


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## Woody2Shoes (22 Mar 2020)

beech1948":2smoprfk said:


> He had been shopping 3-5 times a day for the past 6 weeks.



What a twunt! If he had built this cache over a much longer period and showed evidence of managing/rotating it effectively and without waste then you might say "this guy probably tucks his shirt into his underpants", but the best you can say about him really is that he's a selfish twunt.
I do worry that a lot of the food being panic-bought may end up being wasted. Many households are clueless without ready meals and/or takeaways - people increasingly don't know how to cook from scratch with basic ingredients.


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## Woody2Shoes (22 Mar 2020)

beech1948":1ft2fuw6 said:


> This friends behavior got me thinking. I have today sent an email and written a letter to the CEO of Tesco to ask them to restrict sales per family unit to £100 per trolley per week. I'm not expecting any action but felt it was needed bearing in mind the NHS staff/vulnerable/disabled/autistic etc etc etc.


It's a good idea but unenforceable, sadly.


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## Trainee neophyte (22 Mar 2020)

AES":xvdvxxvg said:


> Yup, I second the above comment "T n". Along with your earlier IMO very silly comments in this thread along the lines of "I can panic better than you can".
> 
> Yes, of course we all have a ("duty"?) to look after our family, but as my old man used to say "There's a difference between scratching yer (A-R-S- bottom) and tearing lumps out of it."



That would be the "He who panics first, panics best" quote? Not a suggestion to run around with your hair on fire, but a hint that if you get in/out first, before the thundering herd, you will be better off. It's just a boy scout "Be prepared" mentality. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. If you passively wait for things to happen to you, you won't be in the best position. It entirely up to you to make your plans and take the action you believe appropriate. It is also up to everyone else, unfortunately, and their actions may impact on you. That is what we are seeing here. People are selfish. It's the most logical behaviour, and is the basis of economics - self-interest. Expecting people not to be selfish seems a little unrealistic. Planning that assumes people are altruistic and selfless is also not going to go as well as it might.

UK is slightly behind the curve compare to Italy, Spain and even Greece. I've told you what draconian police state conditions have been applied here - will they come to the UK, too? If so, at you prepared? Or should you all keep calm and carry on? Not for me to say, as it's not my problem - I have my own challenges to overcome. So far, I have been depressingly correct about my situation. Unusual, for me - I'm normally far too pessimistic, which show just how bad this all is. And I haven't even caught the virus yet.


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Mar 2020)

Hoarding is clearly unattractive and potentially denies needy others critical supplies. But if you are in a high risk group (age or health), covering your needs 
for a period would make good sense. My own take is that up to 4 weeks may be reasonable - 6 months or more is clearly excessive. Tins and dried food with extended use by dates can subsequently offset future food purchases when the situation stabilises. 

But I am very aware government and retailers can be economical with the truth. 

Most supermarkets will carry in store just a couple of days normal sales of fresh produce - meat, vegetable, fruit, bread. Stocks of tinned and non-perishable food may be higher - perhaps a week? The need to minimise stock investment with just in time deliveries means there will be limited stocks locally, and not much more held in central distribution locations. 

It may be possible to increase production of some foods. In the medium term food consumption may not vary materially - but panic demand will create the impression of shortage and drive individual behaviours now.

Imported foods - particularly perishables from the European mainland will be impacted. They have similar or greater problems to the UK, and potentially a shortage of food processing staff and lorry drivers. They may also be mandated to prioritise their own markets first. 

The last thing the government want to do is drive up panic buying. They will continue to maintain that there are more than adequate supplies to go round. This is a predictable response whether you believe it to be correct or not!


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## MikeG. (22 Mar 2020)

Another unattributed assertion, TN, I see. I'm not sure what motivates this unbridled scare-mongering. Let me show you the proper way to make an argument on line. Here is the Chief Executive of the Food and Drink Federation speaking earlier this month:

_Ian Wright, the chief executive of the Food and Drink Federation, said.......
“At this stage, supply chains have experienced disruption but there is no evidence of significant disruption to food supplies. UK food and drink manufacturers have robust procedures in place.”_

Source: The Guardian.


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## AES (22 Mar 2020)

FWIW, personally my wife and I (risk group) have decided only one of us will go out only once/week for a "normal" weekly shop, + any hospital visits really necessary . (She has one tomorrow).

The reasoning is that it makes little difference if the stay in the supermarket is much less than an hour (weekly shop, whereas daily shop perhaps 15 mins/visit) so overall our(my) exposure is lower. Don't know if that's actually correct, but seems "logical" to me. Oh yeah, and wherever possible, timing that weekly shop to coincide with any other "must go outs" (e.g. hospital visit).

On a lighter note, don't know if it's occurred to anyone else, but with hairdressers all closed here, my hair, which was already in need of a cut before this started, is going to look pretty "poetic" by the time this little lot's over (and NO, she's already offered, but SWMBO is NOT going to have a go at "tidying it up", I've got little enough left to play with as it is)! 

Keep smiling folks and all the best to everyone.


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## Trainee neophyte (22 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":203mox8t said:


> Another unattributed assertion, TN, I see. I'm not sure what motivates this unbridled scare-mongering. Let me show you the proper way to make an argument on line. Here is the Chief Executive of the Food and Drink Federation speaking earlier this month:
> 
> _Ian Wright, the chief executive of the Food and Drink Federation, said.......
> “At this stage, supply chains have experienced disruption but there is no evidence of significant disruption to food supplies. UK food and drink manufacturers have robust procedures in place.”_
> ...



Thank you Mike. I was hoping someone might actually have the facts on what and how and how much when it comes to stock and warehousing - and on the mathematics of restocking after a supply shock such as we are seeing. I am in a completely different country, so it is all intellectual curiosity - it's not quite a visceral as it would be if it was my supermarket with empty shelves. Sincere apologies if anyone thought I was trying to assert the end of the world - I found a comment on a less than reputable website, and thought it an interesting proposition, hence my saying it was entirely unsubstantiated. There are people with degrees in logistics who know this stuff intimately. I'm not one of them.


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## Rorschach (22 Mar 2020)

I would have given him a piece of my mind. Shortages and troubles have been caused by people like him and now almost everyone is panic buying because of these fake shortages.

We have done zero panic buying and have not stocked any more food than we usually would but have been forced to make many more trips to supermarkets because things we need/want were out of stock due to these idiots.

Thankfully going out shopping today it looked like things were getting back into some sort of normality with most products available though in reduced numbers.


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## selectortone (22 Mar 2020)

Trainee neophyte":3uh4cveb said:


> I found a comment on a less than reputable website, and thought it an interesting proposition, hence my saying it was entirely unsubstantiated. There are people with degrees in logistics who know this stuff intimately. I'm not one of them.



This entire panic-buying situation has been sparked by unfounded and sensationalist rumour-mongering on social media. We reap what we sow.


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## selectortone (22 Mar 2020)

When I go to do my modest weekly shop and I am confronted by foul-mouthed fat tattooed women fighting over toilet roll, I despair for the human race.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Mar 2020)

Foul-mouthed fat tattooed women have that affect on me no matter where they are or what they're doing.


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## Nigel Burden (22 Mar 2020)

Phil Pascoe":ge9fn7b1 said:


> Foul-mouthed fat tattooed women have that affect on me no matter where they are or what they're doing.



Yuk.

Nigel.


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## Deadeye (22 Mar 2020)

beech1948":2ijfx347 said:


> I've had a bit of a shock this morning. A very good friend whom I have known for over 28 years asked me to visit him and help in his workshop doing some heavy lifting.
> 
> He asked me in for a coffee after and showed me his "stockpile" room. A 14ftx11ft bedroom converted with wood shelving and crammed to the ceiling and all over the floor with canned food stuff and toilet rolls, and disinfectant etc etc etc.
> 
> ...



Selfish imbecile. Either too stupid to understand or too morally vacuous to care.
Either way, just e-mail him a link to this thread and the problem will resolve itself!


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## eezageeza (22 Mar 2020)

I used to work in an industry that supplied all the major UK grocers - a few years ago now, but I imagine the logistics are still much the same. 
The retailers typically held no more than a weeks stock on their premises - both in shops, and central distribution warehouses. We held more stock, ready for them to call in 'just in time' - we were contractually obliged to always deliver their orders with a week.
Unfortunately, their sales forecasting was always appalling, so in order to cope with their sometimes outrageous order quantities at short notice, we would hold sometimes several months stock, 'just in case'.
So in reality, there probably is quite a bit of stock still out there, and of course more can be made while all the existing stock is sold through, so hopefully we'll be okay for a bit yet.
There was an expert on TV this morning who guessed that there is probably £1bn worth of groceries currently stockpiled in peoples homes, so hopefully things will calm down soon, because there is simply no more house room to hoard in!


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## toolsntat (22 Mar 2020)

Right or wrong this makes sense....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnGPlfTAA3M


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## thetyreman (22 Mar 2020)

I would not be happy if I found out a friend had done this!


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## Andy Kev. (23 Mar 2020)

Apparently there's enough supermarket stock to go around, so if folk buy at the normal rate, the shelves get replenished at the normal rate. There are literally no reasons for panic buying.

I think I mentioned this before but the Danes seem to have come up with the answer: the first bottle of handwash costs the usual four quid, the second one costs around 150 quid. Apply the same to bog rolls and everything else and the problem will be dealt with overnight.


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## Rorschach (23 Mar 2020)

Andy Kev.":39h0fzyg said:


> Apparently there's enough supermarket stock to go around, so if folk buy at the normal rate, the shelves get replenished at the normal rate. There are literally no reasons for panic buying.
> 
> I think I mentioned this before but the Danes seem to have come up with the answer: the first bottle of handwash costs the usual four quid, the second one costs around 150 quid. Apply the same to bog rolls and everything else and the problem will be dealt with overnight.



A fine idea in principle, but now use some common sense and apply that to a real world situation. How do you enforce that?


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## Geoff_S (23 Mar 2020)

Rorschach":1pwhmtho said:


> Andy Kev.":1pwhmtho said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently there's enough supermarket stock to go around, so if folk buy at the normal rate, the shelves get replenished at the normal rate. There are literally no reasons for panic buying.
> ...



Just program it into the tills. They do it all the time in an instant, 2 for 1, 3 for 2, price reduction and price increase etc.


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## Rorschach (23 Mar 2020)

Geoff_S":36w16qct said:


> Rorschach":36w16qct said:
> 
> 
> > Andy Kev.":36w16qct said:
> ...



:roll: 
OK let me put it another way, if someone told you 1 item was £1 but 2 items were £100 and you really wanted the second item, how would you get around that?


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## Andy Kev. (23 Mar 2020)

Rorschach":2hcd2bz1 said:


> Andy Kev.":2hcd2bz1 said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently there's enough supermarket stock to go around, so if folk buy at the normal rate, the shelves get replenished at the normal rate. There are literally no reasons for panic buying.
> ...



1. Big notice at the entrance to the supermarket explaining the policy and listing the items effected.

2. Put coloured stickers on the shelves indicating items concerned.

3. A few big security blokes employed to hang around the tills and deal with customers who refuse to pay up.

4. A few empty trolleys by the tills for those customers who will inevitably get muddled and picked up relevant items without realising that they were on the list.


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## Andy Kev. (23 Mar 2020)

Rorschach":10eje40w said:


> Geoff_S":10eje40w said:
> 
> 
> > Just program it into the tills. They do it all the time in an instant, 2 for 1, 3 for 2, price reduction and price increase etc.
> ...



You'd pay up or do without.


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## Rorschach (23 Mar 2020)

I thought we had some smart people on this forum.

I'll wait and see how long it takes before someone "gets it".


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## Geoff_S (23 Mar 2020)

Well yes, you pay for one, load it in the car and go back in again for the second. But then that wouldn’t be a very nice person. :?


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## Andy Kev. (23 Mar 2020)

Rorschach":35bz7327 said:


> I thought we had some smart people on this forum.
> 
> I'll wait and see how long it takes before someone "gets it".


Yes, I know what you're getting at: you'd go around again or you'd go to another shop, where you would also only be able to buy one item. However, in going around again you risk being recognised and bounced out of the shop or getting banned from it.

In any event, making life more difficult for the low life who do hoard is likely to have an effect. Do you really think that some baseball-hatted, tattood or suited, come to that, moron is going to be prepared to go around 23 additional supermarkets to pick get to a total of two dozen packs of kitchen rolls?

It might not be able to eliminate second purchases but it would almost certainly reduce the total amount people were purchasing.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Mar 2020)

My cousin some years ago went to the local Tesco which was a few minutes away from his business, and asked for 100 cases of a beer that was on special offer - way cheaper than he could buy it. The manager said no, it was limited to five cases per customer. My cousin said that's OK, can you get 100 cases out for me and I'll be back in ten minutes with nineteen more people. He got them.


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## Rorschach (23 Mar 2020)

Andy Kev.":2pd8dkff said:


> Rorschach":2pd8dkff said:
> 
> 
> > I thought we had some smart people on this forum.
> ...



Yay got there :lol: 

It's already happening mate, people going back around the tills to get multiple items. Couples going in separate queues etc. 
Is it right? Is it moral? Not for me to answer but it shows that what you propose is totally unenforceable.


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## Lons (23 Mar 2020)

AES":174ryrv8 said:


> On a lighter note, don't know if it's occurred to anyone else, but with hairdressers all closed here, my hair, which was already in need of a cut before this started, is going to look pretty "poetic" by the time this little lot's over (and NO, she's already offered, but SWMBO is NOT going to have a go at "tidying it up", I've got little enough left to play with as it is)!



:lol: :lol: Just had the same conversation this morning as I have an appointment next Tuesday and don't know if they'll be open or not but going to cancel anyway.

Asked the missus if she thought I'd look ok with a pony tail which got a laugh but when I said that a beard might go well with that her reply was unprintable. :shock:


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## Lons (23 Mar 2020)

Trainee neophyte":196m1u8n said:


> Sincere apologies if anyone thought I was trying to assert the end of the world - *I found a comment on a less than reputable website*, and thought it an interesting proposition, hence my saying it was entirely unsubstantiated. There are people with degrees in logistics who know this stuff intimately. I'm not one of them.



TN
Although I accept your motives are not intentionally to spread bad information, you really need to engage your brain sometimes before exercising your typing fingers. :roll:


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## AES (23 Mar 2020)

Lons, you wrote, QUOTE: Asked the missus if she thought I'd look ok with a pony tail which got a laugh ....... UNQUOTE.

Funnily enough I've been "seriously" considering the idea of a pony tail for some time (OK, OK, I concede - "idly toying with the idea of ...." would be more appropriate). When I mentioned that to SWMBO she nearly fell of her chair laughing.

(Actually, I thought I might look somewhat "dashing"). Ah well


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## Trainee neophyte (23 Mar 2020)

Lons":bg5txbmr said:


> Trainee neophyte":bg5txbmr said:
> 
> 
> > Sincere apologies if anyone thought I was trying to assert the end of the world - *I found a comment on a less than reputable website*, and thought it an interesting proposition, hence my saying it was entirely unsubstantiated. There are people with degrees in logistics who know this stuff intimately. I'm not one of them.
> ...



Oddly, you're not the first person to have said that to me 

I have spent a pretty dull few hours trying to answer my own question, to no avail, but the good news is that according to Bloomberg it is moot. The longer the shutdown goes on, the less demand there will be:


> Shortages of goods and food triggered by the coronavirus outbreak has raised the specter of faster inflation across Asia in coming months.
> 
> Yet that short-term spike is expected to be overwhelmed by slowing economic growth in both China and the region as tourism, travel and manufacturing slump. Commodity, energy and transport costs have already fallen.
> 
> ...


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-20/panic-buying-inflation-tipped-to-fade-as-virus-hammers-demand

So an initial inflationary scramble for goods, which rapidly falls off a cliff into deflationary slump. Expect people to run out of money to panic buy with, in other words.


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## HappyHacker (23 Mar 2020)

AES":2pct6n18 said:


> Lons, you wrote, QUOTE: Asked the missus if she thought I'd look ok with a pony tail which got a laugh ....... UNQUOTE.
> 
> Funnily enough I've been "seriously" considering the idea of a pony tail for some time (OK, OK, I concede - "idly toying with the idea of ...." would be more appropriate). When I mentioned that to SWMBO she nearly fell of her chair laughing.
> 
> (Actually, I thought I might look somewhat "dashing"). Ah well



Some time after retiring I decided "what the hell". I now have a long beard and a pony tail. SWMBO is not impressed as my hair is now longer than hers and also all three of my daughters. She would like me to as a minimum get my beard shortened as she says it makes me look old.

So my advice is go for it.


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## Droogs (23 Mar 2020)

curbing how much people buy in any particular chin is not hard at all. Nearly every bus company in Scotland currently does it as they have chip readers on the bus and a central finance system which only charges your card up to a specific point so you only pay for the equivalent of a day ticket even though you have to present it each time. Easy enough to allow the card to be used once and only once per supermarket chain per day/week etc.


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## Doug B (23 Mar 2020)

beech1948":286gu8w4 said:


> I felt somewhat angry at this friend and my wife and I talked about just dropping the moron.
> 
> Wondering what you would choose to do.



I would question how many friends I’d have if I judged them by my own standards, very few I imagine, plus if I’d had a friend for almost 30 years & this is the only time he fell below what’s expected of a friend then I’d suggest he isn’t doing to bad.
He’s not alone in what he has done & I’m not at all surprised by his actions when you consider the hysteria surrounding the virus created by a 24/7 media which seems hell bent on causing panic & is seemingly impossible to escape from, in that regard I’m just glad I’m fairly self sufficient.


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## Rorschach (23 Mar 2020)

Droogs":1camm6ae said:


> curbing how much people buy in any particular chin is not hard at all. Nearly every bus company in Scotland currently does it as they have chip readers on the bus and a central finance system which only charges your card up to a specific point so you only pay for the equivalent of a day ticket even though you have to present it each time. Easy enough to allow the card to be used once and only once per supermarket chain per day/week etc.



Between me and my partner we have 7 credit/debit cards plus cash. Within 3 miles we have approx 20 full size supermarkets.


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## Droogs (23 Mar 2020)

How many per chain. The card could only be used once in any tesco or lidl or sainsbury's etc and then no other. it is really not hard to do or the banks put a maximum of £50 per day coming out of any account easy to do as well


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## Rorschach (23 Mar 2020)

Droogs":2y5vixdn said:


> How many per chain. The card could only be used once in any tesco or lidl or sainsbury's etc and then no other.



We have several of all the major chains as well as one M&S Food and one Waitrose. So even just using cards I could do 7 x 8 shops before even needing to get out the cash which would be almost impossible to trace.



Droogs":2y5vixdn said:


> it is really not hard to do or the banks put a maximum of £50 per day coming out of any account easy to do as well



Now you are getting really silly. But again, cash and our 7 cards are spread over 7 accounts, so that doesn't help either.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Mar 2020)

Swmbo is used to a beard as I've had one for the better part of fifty years, barring a few months. Not usually this length, though.


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## Droogs (23 Mar 2020)

look at the economic history of Greece and Cyprus and a couple of other places that escape me for the moment. It really is not hard for the powers that be to implement any restrictions they want if people continue to be Turnips. You would be amazed at the powers that can be brought to bear when needed.


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## Trainee neophyte (23 Mar 2020)

Droogs":1ofwahhp said:


> look at the economic history of Greece and Cyprus and a couple of other places that escape me for the moment. It really is not hard for the powers that be to implement any restrictions they want if people continue to be Turnips. You would be amazed at the powers that can be brought to bear when needed.



I am astonished at the enthusiasm here for curbing your own freedom, because it might punish perceived"bad behaviour" in others. Nothing like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

You really, really don't want capital controls, believe me. You don't want to limit other people's freedom, because it will by necessity limit yours, too. 

Confiscation of funds - aka "Bail in". See Cyprus for details.
Withdrawal limits. (I had to live on no more than €60 per day, for two years. No access to any funds over that.)
Ban on cash
Negative interest rates 
Enforced use of bank accounts, with bank fees you can not avoid.
Money that expires i.e cannot be saved

That's just a few of the creative ideas that might be coming your way, if the bankers lose their control. I wouldn't be rushing to embrace any of this stuff, because it makes your life truly complicated.


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## Droogs (23 Mar 2020)

I am not condoning the use of these powers only pointing out they will be used if people continue to act in a stupid/thoughtless manner in light of the situation


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## marcros (23 Mar 2020)

Phil Pascoe":u6gjd05c said:


> Swmbo is used to a beard as I've had one for the better part of fifty years, barring a few months. Not usually this length, though.


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## MikeG. (23 Mar 2020)

Rorschach":3hmolikd said:


> .......cash and our 7 cards are spread over 7 accounts, so that doesn't help either.



The point isn't to make a foolproof system, but to reduce the bulk of the excesses. You seem fixated on finding a way around any suggestion made without seeing that the bigger picture is that each suggestion on their own would reduce demand somewhat, even if there were ways around them. A certain reduction in demand is all that is required. Who cares if there are some people cheating the system, so long as the system works for everyone. Please just concede that any such restrictions would have an impact and this really silly conversation can come to an end.


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## marcros (23 Mar 2020)

Interestingly, this evening I received a news clip (yahoo finance I think) that said the shortages were being caused by accidental stockpiling- most people buying a little extra rather than individual people buying trolley fulls of the same product. Take this for what it is- unverified advice based on unknown "research".

I have no idea if it is true or not but it really wouldn't surprise me. For my family, I have done the usual weekly shopping but it is hard to judge what to buy when we are trying to reduce the number of trips and not run out of things, and we are now home for more meals than usual. I haven't purposely stockpiled anything, and I haven't purposely bought stuff ahead of when I normally would. We haven't and couldn't get any pasta, but to be honest a spare bag in the cupboard would have been sensible rather than selfish (in my opinion). Maybe we are all contributing to the shortages more than we realise.


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## Lons (23 Mar 2020)

I know you've posted questioning it's accuracy and I'm not at all sure where they get that from Marcros. In Costco a couple and a bit weeks ago people were going through with several baskets each filled with nothing but bog rolls, massive bulk packs of the things and the general public putting an extra bag of pasta, rice, flour or soup wouldn't have stripped the shelves the way it has.

Have you tried getting a home delivery btw? Extremely difficult even for those vulnerable households at least in our area.


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## Lons (23 Mar 2020)

Trainee neophyte":11hignfy said:


> I am astonished at the enthusiasm here for curbing your own freedom, because it might punish perceived"bad behaviour" in others. Nothing like cutting your nose off to spite your face.



I'd seriously question your interpretation of *"perceived bad behaviour".* This isn't a joke TN it's neither perceived or just bad behaviour it's bl**dy serious and will cost lives as you'll find out if or more likely when it reaches your self sufficient olive grove.

I for one have absolutely no problem accepting enforced restrictions on movement in this current climate if that's what's required to stop the selfish, ignorant morons who are deliberately disregarding social distancing advice. That's what is being discussed not the other issues you've thrown into the pot!

Although I wouldn't wish illness on anyone, I couldn't give a fig if they caught the virus and died, in fact I'd lock the whole lot up together and throw away the key as what they are doing to my mind is criminal. They are by their actions condemning tens of thousands of people to die which to me is akin to manslaughter!


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## Lons (23 Mar 2020)

Phil Pascoe":vzmwbhuw said:


> Swmbo is used to a beard as I've had one for the better part of fifty years, barring a few months. Not usually this length, though.


She wouldn't let me get away with that Phil, I'd be making my own dinners. Where's the pony tail?


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## HappyHacker (23 Mar 2020)

I talked to a 98 yr old lady today. She is sharp as a knife, still drives and has been buying one or two more things every time she shopped since before Christmas so that she would be OK if the winter was bad and she could not get out. She now thinks she may need some milk next week and will let me know when so that I can get a volunteer to get it for her. She did ask if it would be ok with all the restrictions if she went for it herself and I told NO she must not place herself at risk. Apart from the problem of getting milk, I tried three shops today before I found one with milk in stock, keeping my distance and wearing gloves.

I occasionally watch the programs about how things are made and the food manufacturers are shipping stock out as it comes off the production line in vast quantities to supermarkets and wholesalers. They do not hold stock if they can help it. The exception is cheese where proper cheese is matured in a cold room for many months before being shipped. Apparently Spain is upping shipping of fresh veg despite their problems. 

When one is being told that one should not go out and there may be movement restrictions in place it is natural that everyone is going to try and make sure that they will have enough. Though there is a big difference between having sufficient, shopping less frequently and having a considerable excess most of which will end up being thrown out


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Mar 2020)

Lons":oar9eom4 said:


> Phil Pascoe":oar9eom4 said:
> 
> 
> > Swmbo is used to a beard as I've had one for the better part of fifty years, barring a few months. Not usually this length, though.
> ...



I haven't enough hair. I was hairy at 21, bald at 24.


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## Terry - Somerset (24 Mar 2020)

All that has happened is that the limited stock held by the supermarkets has been transferred to peoples store cupboards, fridges and freezers.

Supermarkets are trying to restock their shelves from suppliers who use raw produce from farms.

And farms can't magic up crops ahead of time. Animals, fruit and vegetables take time to grow. New sources of imports is probably not so easy right now.

No one in the food production chain wants to invest money in stock. Storing food costs money for warehousing, product degradation, and for many items obselesence - even in the food industry available stocks need to be coordinated with advertising and promotions. This is why just-in-time is so popular!

But I assume their will come a point when the end user stops increasing stocks - either due to lack of cash or space. I just don't know when!!


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## Jake (24 Mar 2020)

Some of it is demand transferring to supermarkets from the food service sector, which will just take some time for the supermarkets to build up their supply capacity and the suppliers to get shifted across.


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## Trainee neophyte (24 Mar 2020)

Lons":3v3lveom said:


> Trainee neophyte":3v3lveom said:
> 
> 
> > I am astonished at the enthusiasm here for curbing your own freedom, because it might punish perceived"bad behaviour" in others. Nothing like cutting your nose off to spite your face.
> ...



Today we plan to go shopping. First item on the list is to send a text message to the authorities to get permission to travel. This is required regardless of mode of transport - if you leave the house, you need permission. Remember those old war films where the German soldiers move through the train, demanding "Papers!"?

More than two people in a car gets a fine of €150 per person. Only designated shops can be visited. Only goods that can not be sent by courier are allowed to be bought. Getting the picture yet? Either you embrace the government control of every facet of your life because Big Brother knows best, or you are offended by the invasive loss of freedom. I am truly living in 1984, where "War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength."

Will the government give up it's totalitarian control in a few weeks, months, years? Or will the crisis continue for ever? ‘Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.’

What I am saying is be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it, a lot, repeatedly, with malice aforethought.


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## sammy.se (24 Mar 2020)

Perspective though: this is all happening because of a killer disease, not because of political ideology. We are all trying to stay alive and healthy, and not catastrophically overwhelm the health systems.


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## Trainee neophyte (24 Mar 2020)

sammy.se":2g83iq01 said:


> Perspective though: this is all happening because of a killer disease, not because of political ideology. We are all trying to stay alive and healthy, and not catastrophically overwhelm the health systems.



Well said. I am not expecting a political over-reach and descent into dictatorship, but you never know. Never let a crisis go to waste, etc. To be fair, it wouldn't be the first dictatorship here, so there is precedent. 

I don't like forcing people to do things, mainly because I don't like being forced to do things. Force can get out of hand far too quickly, and all government is rule backed by a self-declared monopoly on violence.


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## RogerS (24 Mar 2020)

Phil Pascoe":1nf6ybqy said:


> Swmbo is used to a beard as I've had one for the better part of fifty years, barring a few months. Not usually this length, though.



So that's where Jacob got to :lol:


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## RogerS (24 Mar 2020)

beech1948":34hhu7sz said:


> MikeG.":34hhu7sz said:
> 
> 
> > Did you confront your friend?
> ...



It's moot now surely with the lockdown. I share your dilemma though. Our two locals closed last Friday. I didn't go but a friend did. He said the first one was very busy and he stayed for a long time. Then he went down to the second one - equally as busy - for a lock-in. Not impressed with him TBH but have said nothing.


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## Trainee neophyte (24 Mar 2020)

On topic,and going viral: you've probably already seen it

[youtube]ch7gUrebnjA[/youtube]


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## Trainee neophyte (24 Mar 2020)

And to continue the theme: https://brobible.com/culture/article/co ... -hoarders/



> Now that most Costcos around the country are restocked with essential items the store is putting up signs saying they will not be accepting returns for toilet paper, water, hand sanitizer and other high-demand items that many people were hoarding for no good reason.



Schadenfreude
noun [ U ]
UK /ˈʃɑː.dənˌfrɔɪ.də/ US /ˈʃɑː.dənˌfrɔɪ.də/

a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction when something bad happens to someone else


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## heimlaga (24 Mar 2020)

We tend to keep a pretty decent stock at home of everything from food (potatoes, flour, sugar, pasta, vegetable oil, meat, berries and fruit from last season, sauerkraut and preserved beetroots and carrots from last autumn, onions and oatmeal and so on) to toilet paper to timber and nails and bolts and mild steel profiles and welding rod and linseed oil and grinder discs and motor oil and diesel fuel and firewood. The basics of everyday life.
This saves both time and money during good times as the nearest grocery store is 7 kilometres away and the nearest timberyard is 8 kilometres away and the nearest hardware store is 20 kilometres away. If you count the time and the fuel and the wear on the car then the modern sort of just-in-time shopping becomes very expensive. 

This in turn means that when we went "hoarding" for the approaching crisis we just stocked up on such essentials that we were low on at the moment. Bought just a little more than we usually do of some.
I want to point out that we aren't preppers.

If more people had this sort of larder and cellar based householding there would have been no reason for panic and very little hoarding. A few bales more of toiletpaper and a few bags more of potatoes sold and that would have been it.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Mar 2020)

If only we had properties large enough for larders.


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## AES (24 Mar 2020)

That's a very good point Phil. I've never been inside a private house in Finland, but of all the "European" houses (and flats) I've lived in (Switzerland and Germany) they are general MUCH bigger (floor area) than UK houses, AND always have a cellar.


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## Lons (24 Mar 2020)

Trainee neophyte":3ovsx9l3 said:


> I don't like forcing people to do things, mainly because I don't like being forced to do things. Force can get out of hand far too quickly, and all government is rule backed by a self-declared monopoly on violence.



The UK government have been heavily criticised for not locking down much earlier. They tried appealing to common sense but it didn't work as was obvious when the hoards who don't posses any blatantly ignored the advice. That will already result in many lives lost. Eventually the UK will return to being a democratic country, in the meantime this is without doubt a war scenario.
In the current climate would you rather ask for a permit or die? It's a safe bet that every one of us will have a relative, friend or colleague who will succumb to this virus and everyone of us needs to change attitude and have some respect and regard for others.

If you dislike like the political regime in Greece so much then perhaps you're living in the wrong country TN though sometimes I think you're actually on a different planet. :lol:


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## Trainee neophyte (24 Mar 2020)

Lons":3rmhg4xm said:


> Trainee neophyte":3rmhg4xm said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like forcing people to do things, mainly because I don't like being forced to do things. Force can get out of hand far too quickly, and all government is rule backed by a self-declared monopoly on violence.
> ...



I freely admit to not thinking in the same way as other people - it causes no end of complications, but over the years I have got used to it, unlike everyone who doesn't know me, and then has to deal with my insanities. I do apologise - it's not intentional, I promise you. 

Regarding martial law, state supression of freedom etc - if you are cynical, you might consider that any government given the opportunity to take more power, will take that power gladly. It will be much less enthusiastic about giving it up again, later. Does government ever get smaller? 

Speaking of government, there is a €400 limit on cash withdrawals here, as of today. Capital controls in other words. This may or may not get worse, and may or may not spread to other countries - but is probably a good canary in the coal mine regarding the state of banks. Make of that what you will.


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## beech1948 (24 Mar 2020)

Boris has put paid to my meeting up with the Stockpiling friend. So I called him on the phone and we had a debate that lasted maybe 4 minutes. He got completely angry and defensive, swore a bit, called me a bas****rd and I put the phone down. Friendship lost and gone. Kind of sad really. Oh well back to the office as my business is operating closed down except for me.


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## welly (24 Mar 2020)

That's incredibly sad. I pity your (ex?) friend and feel sorry for you that his behaviour has broken up a long term friendship. I must say it would probably do the same for me if I was in a similar situation. Thankfully my good friends would never exhibit such greediness. Or at least I'd hope they wouldn't, and I assume you probably thought the same!


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## sammy.se (24 Mar 2020)

that's sad to hear, but I suspect a touch of a guilty conscience made him defensive... it may be that in more normal times, common sense will prevail and he will come around


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## Inspector (24 Mar 2020)

When all this is over and he gets tired of eating canned beans he might do the right thing and donate them to the local food bank.

Pete


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## banjerbill (24 Mar 2020)

I think you were expecting this, he knows he is in the wrong hence the anger. I feel the days were numbered from the minute he showed you his hoarde.

Bill


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## Lons (24 Mar 2020)

What the others said, it's sad but when everything has blown over things often have a habit of recovering.
Seems a shame to lose a 30 year friendship but in your case I would have had little hesitation in telling him he's wrong.


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## cammy9r (25 Mar 2020)

Im not all that sure if your friend is all that wrong, in a worst case scenario he may have provided for you too. I wonder how families are feeling just now. Imagine having to have 3 months of food to feed 5 people, I dont see anything wrong with them bulk buying. People panic nothing new there and some of the stuff could be from the very bad winter last..last year, cant remember when really but the shelves were emptied over a bit of snow that was gone in no time.
This is my first pandemic and possibly going to be my first GOV lockdown, restrictions are in place but its is not absolute. I have not panic bulk bought anything and im happy to forage through the shops and buy the food that others deem unworthy. Only thing i did stock up on was dog food, i usually buy 1-2 months a time anyway but now i have 3 months. If i get stuck in the house he has a good supply and if worse comes to worse he has always been the sharing kind  .
My wife passed away 6 months ago now from cancer, we are only in our mid 40's so Im on my own now and can get by on very little if need be. My outlook on life changed when she died and i no longer let stuff 'bother' me. Work is about to shut down so i can have lots of tinker time in the workshops. I should remain sane provided the internet and utilities hold up :shock: .


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## welly (25 Mar 2020)

cammy9r":35yunfcy said:


> Im not all that sure if your friend is all that wrong, in a worst case scenario he may have provided for you too. I wonder how families are feeling just now. Imagine having to have 3 months of food to feed 5 people, I dont see anything wrong with them bulk buying. People panic nothing new there and some of the stuff could be from the very bad winter last..last year, cant remember when really but the shelves were emptied over a bit of snow that was gone in no time.
> This is my first pandemic and possibly going to be my first GOV lockdown, restrictions are in place but its is not absolute. I have not panic bulk bought anything and im happy to forage through the shops and buy the food that others deem unworthy. Only thing i did stock up on was dog food, i usually buy 1-2 months a time anyway but now i have 3 months. If i get stuck in the house he has a good supply and if worse comes to worse he has always been the sharing kind  .
> My wife passed away 6 months ago now from cancer, we are only in our mid 40's so Im on my own now and can get by on very little if need be. My outlook on life changed when she died and i no longer let stuff 'bother' me. Work is about to shut down so i can have lots of tinker time in the workshops. I should remain sane provided the internet and utilities hold up :shock: .



His friend hoarding and bulk buying is wrong though. But mostly it's unneccesary. In the short term he's denied other people access to all the items he (and other panic buyers) have cleared up from the shelves. Supermarkets are not closing, people are not being denied access to them. There is no good reason to have filled an entire bedroom with all this stuff.


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## selectortone (25 Mar 2020)

cammy9r":218oegb8 said:


> My wife passed away 6 months ago now from cancer, we are only in our mid 40's so Im on my own now and can get by on very little if need be. My outlook on life changed when she died and i no longer let stuff 'bother' me. Work is about to shut down so i can have lots of tinker time in the workshops. I should remain sane provided the internet and utilities hold up :shock: .



Hi cammy9r. I am in similar circumstances to you - lost my wife to cancer in our early 50s (15 yrs ago) and have been living alone since. A crazy cat keeps me company, he's a great comfort. Just wanted to reach out, say hello, and tell you you have (at least) one kindred spirit here. It does get easier, hang in there.


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## beech1948 (25 Mar 2020)

To those who have lost a loved one my condolences.

I have had time to ruminate on this overnight as I was quite upset by his response. My response ranged from annoyance, to pity to down right anger at his language.

After all is said an done though I merely mentioned my disappointment at his actions and the effect on others. I thought that for a friend use of the word "disappointment" would be enough. I'll give it time and also have decided to just be pleasant if ever in his company again but not to seek it out.

Al


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## Lons (25 Mar 2020)

Looks like a plan Al =D>


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## rafezetter (25 Mar 2020)

HappyHacker":1toi1vt5 said:


> AES":1toi1vt5 said:
> 
> 
> > Lons, you wrote, QUOTE: Asked the missus if she thought I'd look ok with a pony tail which got a laugh ....... UNQUOTE.
> ...


 I've had long hair before (Legolas long) and I'm growing it again - partly because I can, at 50 I still have a full head, no thinning or whispy bits, unlike most of my younger siblings one of which is in his mid 30's but has a full on William Shakepseare hair, which is ironic as he is a theatre actor.

It doesn't have to be the 80's style "pony tail" - it could be either a top knot as preferred by samurai for centuries or a viking braid, both of which have seen a resurgence in recent years.


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## rafezetter (25 Mar 2020)

Doug B":22h628zd said:


> beech1948":22h628zd said:
> 
> 
> > I felt somewhat angry at this friend and my wife and I talked about just dropping the moron.
> ...



While I can understand this thought - the converse of that is that you'd never actually seen his true personality until such time as a crisis comes around.

It's in the hard times that "you meet the man" - not easy times - it's easy(er) to be nice when life is easy.

There are those for whom self preservation (health - money whatever) is king above all, for others it's the sense of morality and being a good human being that is king. Right now we have a great deal of those around, they are called "medical staff".

Ask your friend how he would like to explain his actions to one (or a group) of them whom have not have the time to go out shopping 3/5 times per day because they have been too busy helping the sick and putting thier own lives on the line - like my cousin the Paramedic.

If he doesn't have a look of abject shame on his face - then you've met the man - the REAL man, and the last 28 years has been a lie.

When measured in such a context his actions are indefensible. Utterly.


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## Selwyn (26 Mar 2020)

At the end of the day no one in this country has starved. People couldn't just get everything they want for about 8 days.


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## RogerS (26 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":1qir9gj9 said:


> At the end of the day no one in this country has starved. People couldn't just get everything they want for about 8 days.



That a remarkably glib reply.


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## Andy Kev. (26 Mar 2020)

Lons":dqo14net said:


> What the others said, it's sad but when everything has blown over things often have a habit of recovering.
> Seems a shame to lose a 30 year friendship but in your case I would have had little hesitation in telling him he's wrong.


I suppose everybody would have a different approach to dealing with this but I think that mine would be - assuming that I genuinely valued the friendship and normally had high regard for this chap - would be to do nothing until running into him again once all the corona fuss has died down. Then over a pint get him to see that panic had led him to being a selfish .. If he's not man enough to accept the latter point, then IMO he's not worthy to be a friend. We all make mistakes and we all occasionally do things that are wrong. We are usually better for coughing (no pun intended) to them and if he does manage that then the friendship will be resurrected.

But like I say, that's just me.


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## shed9 (26 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":2pl8251f said:


> At the end of the day no one in this country has starved. People couldn't just get everything they want for about 8 days.



Is that sarcasm? I find it hard to tell these days on the T'interweb.


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## Selwyn (26 Mar 2020)

RogerS":1t7307bl said:


> Selwyn":1t7307bl said:
> 
> 
> > At the end of the day no one in this country has starved. People couldn't just get everything they want for about 8 days.
> ...



Not really. 

Look the panic buying was real for sure. Everyone thinks they didn't do any of it but actually pretty much everyone did. I'm not talking about trolleys full of toilet roll but everyone bought a little bit more of this and that and created a panic.

There was and is no shortage of food in this country. Whilst some headline photos of the pensioner in the supermarket hunched over the aisles, or the NHS nurse crying were undoubtedly real they were also extremely temporary. Facts are that there are always alternatives. Smaller shops said they had plenty of supply. Many catering sectors did too. 

The feeding frenzy developed a further frenzy and then collective outrage because everybody still expected to get what they wanted when they wanted which is clearly not going to happen immediatley.


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## Selwyn (26 Mar 2020)

I expect 95% of people could easily have conceivably have concocted a good 10 days meals out of what they had in the freezer and store cupboard


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## RogerS (26 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":2va7wzm4 said:


> RogerS":2va7wzm4 said:
> 
> 
> > Selwyn":2va7wzm4 said:
> ...



As you've got such a tenuous grasp of reality and actually what it has been like for very many people out there, I will refrain from responding to you again.


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## welly (26 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":3fhcjyf5 said:


> At the end of the day no one in this country has starved. People couldn't just get everything they want for about 8 days.



No one? Despite the corona virus, people starve in this country every day.


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## Selwyn (26 Mar 2020)

They might do but its not usually for lack of cheap affordable food. You can feed yourself on £1.50-2 a day if you are willing to take responsibility for food budgeting.

My point is that the "food crisis" is one largely concocted. There is a massive supply of food in the UK - I work in this industry.


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## Richard_C (26 Mar 2020)

I don't condone hoarding, especially if what is hoarded will be discarded or if it for later re-sale at a profit. But I bet we are all buying a few more days ahead than we normally do - I certainly am because 2 or 3 mini-shopping trips a week is more of a risk than 1. And please don't judge me because I've got 24 eggs and 3 packs of butter in my trolley - I have 2 neighbours who can't get out. Other people you see in shops might be buying for others, have a large family, or just be unable to get to the shops regularly.

While I don't condone hoarding I can understand it. We all behave rationally, but we have all had different experiences and 'rational' differs from person to person. My father saw great deprivation in Italy (Bomber pilot, 81 ops) and the UK during and post war. His father was killed in 1917 so he said they never had enough food at home when he was young. When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's he always kept a few tins in the cupboard - beans and spam I think - and a productive garden. I never asked, but his 'rational' was probably that he never wanted his family to go hungry. I worked in HR on Merseyside in the 80s, some of the union reps told me about their experience when young, fathers doing casual work on the docks and bakeries and in lean weeks they went hungry. That's why they didn't trust, or even hated, the bosses. There are lots of stories like that - then and now. I am a school governor and we have children coming to school hungry, in 2020 in what is a rich nation. What will their behaviour be if one day they can afford to hoard a little?

We have had inconveniences, sugar shortage of '74 is an example and it wasn't a real shortage even then. Many of us, including me, have never lived through proper unrelenting hardship. I would be distraught if my children when young had said "Dad I'm hungry", really meaning it not just whingeing, and I could do nothing about it.

Maybe your friend was regularly sent to bed without food as a punishment as a child, maybe long ago his family went hungry for some reason, maybe he feels a strong need to be the provider (we no longer leave our caves and return 3 days later with a dead elk on our shoulder, we come home from Tesco with a boot full of goodies). Maybe he sees himself as a rescuer - when the chips are down he has the resources to provide for relatives. You will never know and can never ask, you may not approve but maybe you can understand that what he thinks is 'rational' may not be greed but something else altogether.

What if he had never told you, never proudly shown you his stockroom? Maybe you have other friends who have stores of this and that but haven't told you, would you be just as angry with them if you found out? Was telling you the mistake? I'm not supporting hoarding for the sake of it, but we should all try to understand why we act differently from one another. 

We might all lose friends - or they us - to the virus, making peace might be the best thing we can do right now. When you are on a ventilator you can't speak. I'm not saying that to be gloomy, just realistic. Maybe we should all hoard as much goodwill as we can, just in case. I wasn't a part of the conversation you had with him, so mustn't judge and may have done exactly what you did, but maybe you can build a bridge back one day soon.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2020)

I am a school governor and we have children coming to school hungry, in 2020 in what is a rich nation. What will their behaviour be if one day they can afford to hoard a little? ...

They are coming to school hungry because their parents send them to school hungry - their priorities are different to ours. The parents will have phones, Sky subscriptions etc. They will grow up the same.


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## Selwyn (26 Mar 2020)

And a bowl of porridge and honey costs what? 7p?...


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## D_W (26 Mar 2020)

Can't really give much thought on the hoarder, but compare the hoarder to a friend who tries to sell you things of theirs to get out of a bind. 

I like to play guitar and build guitars (and I've bought plenty that are manufactured, and thus sold many - not for profit, at a minimal loss, it's just a hobby). I've become acquainted with a few other people who do the same. One of them constantly tries to remember anything that I've ever said that I wanted and when he decides he wants something else, he badgers me to buy whatever he's selling. 

I find that very annoying. In fact, I find any friends ever trying to sell me something to be very annoying (fortunately, most of mine don't do that - just one relative who is always in to MLM that I had to set straight). 

Goes back to the old saying - you can't pick relatives, but you can pick friends. When I can't stand to be around someone, rather than to confront them about it, I just make it more difficult to find a time to meet with them or talk on the phone. They will usually move on to someone else. 

As for the MLM relative who pops up once in a while with "hoping we could meet and catch up, haven't seen you in a while", I had to be a lot more direct, but that's no surprise given they have predators egging them on to "be persistent to be successful".


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## beech1948 (26 Mar 2020)

Richard_C,

Thank you for your message. I understand what and why you would post this. I have known the individual for 28 years and he is 11 yrs younger than me so only 61 to my 72 years.

After WW2 rationing did not end until 1954 and I was born in 1948 so I have experienced a degree of deprivation for at least 6 years. Even at age 6 it changes you to become what I hope I am, a responsible 72 yr old with what I like to think of as a sharing spirit, unless you offend me. I still have a streak of mean in me to guard against. Since I was 6 I have not had to endure any form of deprivation or hunger due to two very hard working parents and after age of 20 and uni my own efforts.

The chap I described as a hoarder did not go through these issues. He comes from a middle class family and has had a life of being well provided for and even able to retire aged 60. I used to laugh with him that I am still working on my business.

I will treat him pleasantly, I will not seek him out and I will not provide further help to him unless he is in real need...remember my mean streak. Luckily I have quite a few other friends around non of whom I have told of this problem as it is a private matter of conscience and social behaviour.

So time to let this one go into the annals of history and to keep going forward. Never backwards as the past is no guide to the future.
Al


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## RogerS (26 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":jyo0domr said:


> And a bowl of porridge and honey costs what? 7p?...



Ah, you said you were in the food industry. Meals on Wheels perhaps.

OK...I know that I said I'd not respond to you gain but seriously...I doubt you're in any sort of meaningful capacity in the food industry. Dish washer, perhaps ?


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## Selwyn (26 Mar 2020)

Food producer mate.

I also go to the supermarket and feed my kids. I know what food costs and I also know what its costs to produce and work closely with distributors
Food (whole foods not processed and added to) is incredibly good value. But you can also chose to make it expensive


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## RogerS (27 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":17rgh7dl said:


> Food producer mate.
> 
> ...



Ah, I see. You're the person who counts each baked bean into the tin. That would explain a lot.


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## welly (27 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":2y8td975 said:


> They might do but its not usually for lack of cheap affordable food. You can feed yourself on £1.50-2 a day if you are willing to take responsibility for food budgeting.
> 
> My point is that the "food crisis" is one largely concocted. There is a massive supply of food in the UK - I work in this industry.



You're assuming that everyone has the financial, physical and mental capacity to take responsibility for food budgeting. I'm sure there is plenty of food for most of us but it's getting the food on to people's tables that is part of the problem.

Given that in 2017/2018 it was estimated that 14 million people in this country were living in poverty (it's been since redefined what is poverty so that number may well have fallen), there's a lot of people who don't have that financial, physical or mental capacity to take responsibility for food budgeting.

So, there are *plenty* of people starving in this country.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Mar 2020)

There's bound to be poverty when poverty is decided by an arbitrary line, with people above and below it. Try telling people in Yemen, Syria etc. that we have 14,000,000 people living in poverty.


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## Selwyn (27 Mar 2020)

RogerS":cq79ue6a said:


> Selwyn":cq79ue6a said:
> 
> 
> > Food producer mate.
> ...



No I grow it, supply supermarkets and shops with food. Don't knock us, the nation is only ever 4 meals from anarchy and we all knew we had the food supply and there was not a shortage


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## Geoff_S (27 Mar 2020)

RogerS":1qfml2y4 said:


> Selwyn":1qfml2y4 said:
> 
> 
> > And a bowl of porridge and honey costs what? 7p?...
> ...



Isn't Meals on Wheels a good thing then?


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## rafezetter (27 Mar 2020)

Andy Kev.":2do237bb said:


> Lons":2do237bb said:
> 
> 
> > What the others said, it's sad but when everything has blown over things often have a habit of recovering.
> ...



I'm not advocating ending a 30 year friendship on whim, but if he hasn't already twigged that there have been shortages, that elderly people have been given thier own slot to go shopping ahead of the greedy hoards or that those in the medical profession have still been losing out all because of panic buyers like him then I can see only two options here :

1) he doesn't read/ hear / watch the news in any form on any outlet anywhere.
2) he doesn't think any of the "don't be a pinapple" advice applies to him and his family, and he feels he has the right to "ensure thier survival at all costs", which no-one has - although plenty seem to believe it.

Either way, honestly he's a bit being a bit of a pillock.


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## rafezetter (27 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":1fndv6jn said:


> RogerS":1fndv6jn said:
> 
> 
> > Selwyn":1fndv6jn said:
> ...



Actually NO, not everyone did.


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## rafezetter (27 Mar 2020)

Richard_C":2zgre9pg said:


> I don't condone hoarding, especially if what is hoarded will be discarded or if it for later re-sale at a profit. But I bet we are all buying a few more days ahead than we normally do - I certainly am because 2 or 3 mini-shopping trips a week is more of a risk than 1. And please don't judge me because I've got 24 eggs and 3 packs of butter in my trolley - I have 2 neighbours who can't get out. Other people you see in shops might be buying for others, have a large family, or just be unable to get to the shops regularly.
> 
> While I don't condone hoarding I can understand it. We all behave rationally, but we have all had different experiences and 'rational' differs from person to person. My father saw great deprivation in Italy (Bomber pilot, 81 ops) and the UK during and post war. His father was killed in 1917 so he said they never had enough food at home when he was young. When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's he always kept a few tins in the cupboard - beans and spam I think - and a productive garden. I never asked, but his 'rational' was probably that he never wanted his family to go hungry. I worked in HR on Merseyside in the 80s, some of the union reps told me about their experience when young, fathers doing casual work on the docks and bakeries and in lean weeks they went hungry. That's why they didn't trust, or even hated, the bosses. There are lots of stories like that - then and now. I am a school governor and we have children coming to school hungry, in 2020 in what is a rich nation. What will their behaviour be if one day they can afford to hoard a little?
> 
> ...




All fair points, I know my father (74) has always had an irrational fear of running out of food after the severe rationing when he was a child after the war - but I think if that friend has made a cache of stuff for the pure purpose of ensuring OTHERS had supplies because he envisioned the panic buying then....

Why did he rack out the room with shelving?

Forgive my ignorance but to me - shelving = LONGTERM STORAGE.

A person bulk buying for others wouldn't go to such lengths, even those with an overly developed sense of order, because it'll be gone soon. - Those genuinly doing so would just cram it where they could for the short(relatively speaking) period of storage required, not rack out an entire room floor to ceiling (which is what I think the OP said).


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## Lons (28 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":1f4pww0q said:


> Look the panic buying was real for sure. Everyone thinks they didn't do any of it but actually pretty much everyone did. I'm not talking about trolleys full of toilet roll but everyone bought a little bit more of this and that and created a panic.



Well maybe that's true in your little corner of Wales, from the tone of your posts you were one of them and it's perfectly understandable to add just a little more but your statement that " _pretty much everyone did_ " is absolute bullsh*t, that's not what caused the shortages on the shelves. 
None of my family did that and as far as I know none of my close friends either and several of them are the ones likely to be caring for the morons who caused the shortages, they're working long shifts and can't easily get what they need which is disgraceful, so I'll tell then you said not to worry they can have what they need very soon as it's _" extremely temporary "_ :roll: 
I witnessed panic buying with trolleys piled high with way way more than an extra tin or two and found it distasteful.




> There was and is no shortage of food in this country. Whilst some headline photos of the pensioner in the supermarket hunched over the aisles, or the NHS nurse crying were undoubtedly real they were also extremely temporary. Facts are that there are always alternatives. Smaller shops said they had plenty of supply. Many catering sectors did too.
> 
> The feeding frenzy developed a further frenzy and then collective outrage because everybody still expected to get what they wanted when they wanted which is clearly not going to happen immediatley.



Try telling that to the people who can't get a delivery slot because they stop at April 10th and are sold out. I managed to get a click and collect for next Tuesday which has been booked for several days but I have to drive a 30 mile round trip to get it and take the risk, however small of contact.
Local shops have an amount of stock but it tends to be very limited due to size, shelf space and storage capacity and our local village shop has said the wholesaler has bumped up prices and limited orders.


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## Andy Kev. (28 Mar 2020)

welly":jawq6iul said:


> Given that in 2017/2018 it was estimated that 14 million people in this country were living in poverty (it's been since redefined what is poverty so that number may well have fallen), there's a lot of people who don't have that financial, physical or mental capacity to take responsibility for food budgeting.
> 
> So, there are *plenty* of people starving in this country.



Of those 14 million, how many have a mobile phone/car/flat screen telly/clothes which they were able to buy new etc.? Such people are not poor.

The number who are mentally incapable of food budgeting is probably miniscule and of course they would be deserving of assistance.

I would suggest that if someone handles their money frugally and wisely but still does not have enough for food/heating etc. then they qualify as poor.

Unfortunately there are people who just think that money should be handed out to them as of right and some of them probably think that they have a "right" to a certain kind of lifestyle.

A couple of years back a family on benefits (does that qualify as poor?) was put in the house behind my mother's. Lights burned all night, every night throughout the house. Did they think that electricity was free? (Effectively it was for them of course.) There was never a shortage of beer to be drunk in the back garden and so on. I'm not objecting to people getting handouts from social services but it's clear that some of them need managing i.e. having fiscal discipline imposed on them. That said, how that should be done is beyond me.

Yes there are people who most of us would probably agree are genuinely poor and I'm sure we would want to help them. There are other people who are just wastrels.

Another problem is that definitions of poverty are arbitrary. It seems to usually defined in terms of dividing line in income. I suspect that what people do with their income leads to whether they end up enduring poverty or not.

I do not see how you can say that there are plenty of people starving in the UK. Do you have any evidence for that? And indeed, what do you mean by "starving"?


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## RogerS (28 Mar 2020)

Andy Kev.":374d9uw7 said:


> ....
> I do not see how you can say that there are plenty of people starving in the UK. Do you have any evidence for that? And indeed, what do you mean by "starving"?



I could find no evidence. Plenty to suggest malnutrition is prevalent especially in poorer areas.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

I am reminded of long retired relative, a (very, very good) infant school headmistress, answering a comment made by my mother - you don't take any notice of the parents, do you? .............. No. I don't. You've seen the parents - would you?


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## Rorschach (28 Mar 2020)

I'd be very interested to know what the definition is of poverty and starving in the UK. 

I live in/near to a poor area, there are people here who are 2-3 generation unemployed/benefit reliant. I am not seeing anyone starving or in what I would consider poverty. Indeed many look "well fed" shall we say and all have good clothes, technology etc. They seem to have very different priorities than myself though and other people I know.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

As long as the bottom n% of the population is classed as living in poverty it should come as no surprise that we can't abolish it.


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## Trainee neophyte (28 Mar 2020)

Phil Pascoe":1i8xsxi2 said:


> As long as the bottom n% of the population is classed as living in poverty it should come as no surprise that we can't abolish it.



But what we can do is spend inordinate amounts of other people's money combatting and waging War On Poverty™, "for the children". There is an entire industry built around it.

In other news, I feel the need to start hoarding: https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest ... i-21725476

It is anti-microbial - I need it!


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

We had two School of Mines lodgers when we first got a nice house. One said to me one day we'e comfortable, clean, warm and very well fed ......... many of our class mates aren't - some go out to buy food after their evening meal. 
We made good money out of them. We bought carefully - trays of eggs, large cans of tomatoes, beans, large bags or pasta and rice, sacks of potatoes and onions, meat from the market butcher, fish from friends who fished. It really doesn't cost a lot per capita to feed a number of people. I've followed people out of supermarkets with £150 trolleys that I would struggle to make a decent meal out from.


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## Woody2Shoes (28 Mar 2020)

RogerS":2yhflcd1 said:


> Andy Kev.":2yhflcd1 said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



I judge the demographics of an area by the amount of obesity I see amongst the local population. Poverty is not (just) about money.


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## Andy Kev. (28 Mar 2020)

Rorschach":3h8yqb1w said:


> I'd be very interested to know what the definition is of poverty and starving in the UK.
> 
> I live in/near to a poor area, there are people here who are 2-3 generation unemployed/benefit reliant. I am not seeing anyone starving or in what I would consider poverty. Indeed many look "well fed" shall we say and all have good clothes, technology etc. They seem to have very different priorities than myself though and other people I know.



That's an interesting and probably key point about prioritising. By income I am officially now at the bottom end of the middle class in Germany where I live. I simply have no grounds for complaint yet I know people who earn more than me who claim that they don't have enough. Then look at the cars they drive. If having a tip-top BMW, Merc or Audi is a priority for you then fair enough but you have no grounds whatsoever to moan about what is left over from your monthly pay. I've got a Fiesta (no status symbol whatsoever and I saved for it and so took out no loan) and therefore the outlay was much less.

I reckon that if you act in general terms as if debt is a very bad thing, you will probably get by. Never buy things on the drip.


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## Lons (28 Mar 2020)

RogerS":3lw0l5cn said:


> Andy Kev.":3lw0l5cn said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...


One of my brothers lives in one of those "poor" areas although he certainly wouldn't class his family as being in that category, they are well fed and for a good reason which is very simple i.e. they buy decent honest food and cook proper meals from scratch, they didn't feed their kids on easy junk stick in the microwave cr*p, crisps, and burgers like most of his neighbours whocan't be bothered and don't give a monkeys.
It's astonishing how many takeaways are delivered into and how many obese adults and kids there are in some of these deprived areas. ( My brother in law has been delivering for 5 years and is very clear about where the volume of their business lies).
It's not always cost or lack of availability that's the issue but rather laziness, attitude and ignorance.


> Of those 14 million, how many have a mobile phone/car/flat screen telly/clothes which they were able to buy new etc.? Such people are not poor.


Yep, all abundantly obvious in the area I'm talking about, hell of a lot of sat dishes, decent cars and a high percentage of smokers! Fag money could buy a lot of healthy food and no good saying they can't give up as the help is available to them foc if they wanted it.

All that said there are of course cases of very real hardship despite a parents best efforts and in those case they need appropriate help.


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## RogerS (28 Mar 2020)

Woody2Shoes":30gd3cog said:


> RogerS":30gd3cog said:
> 
> 
> > Andy Kev.":30gd3cog said:
> ...



Not really sure what you're trying to say? Especially the last sentence.


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## Nigel Burden (28 Mar 2020)

I can assure you that what Andy has posted is perfectly true.

My daughter lives on her own with her dog and is buying her flat. A family living in a flat below her claim benefits, don't work, or at least only enough so as to receive maximum benefits, (his scaffolding truck very rarely moves). There is certainly no shortage of food judging by the size of them. In the summer they take over the shared garden with their inflatable swimming tub, and there's no shortage of alcohol. The flat they are living in was refurbished before they moved in although it had only been done a couple of years earlier, and was in good repair. Another neighbour had a go at them one day for making a lot of noise one night when they had a party, and reminded them that Gemma, she's my daughter, actually works, as does her husband, and perhaps they might like to sleep as they had to get up in the morning.

Nigel.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

A friend I worked with years ago was a baker at Tesco. He used to walk through two council estates on the way to work at four in the morning. He said I wonder every day why I f ........ bother - they've all satellite dishes, new double gazing, gas central heating, newer cars than mine - half the time they're still up partying ..........and I'm supposed to be intelligent.


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## RogerS (28 Mar 2020)

Yes, it is true to say that there are some who are, to use an old-fashioned phrase, 'swinging the lead'. Just as there are some folk in employment fiddling expenses.

But equally, there are genuine folk who are very much living hand-to-mouth on a daily basis.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

I have a self employed neighbour who is worried about the plans for him to paid 80% of his earnings - he earns £40,000 p. a. ............. but according to HMRC he only earns £22,000. I can't say with any honesty that I feel sorry for him.


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## shed9 (28 Mar 2020)

RogerS":cg8rjbfv said:


> Yes, it is true to say that there are some who are, to use an old-fashioned phrase, 'swinging the lead'. Just as there are some folk in employment fiddling expenses.
> 
> But equally, there are genuine folk who are very much living hand-to-mouth on a daily basis.



Totally agree, neither end of those spectrums dilute or cancel the other one out.


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## Lons (28 Mar 2020)

RogerS":1hv601dq said:


> Yes, it is true to say that there are some who are, to use an old-fashioned phrase, 'swinging the lead'. Just as there are some folk in employment fiddling expenses.
> 
> But equally, there are genuine folk who are very much living hand-to-mouth on a daily basis.


Yes there are!

A number of years ago I was on the 'phone to my brother the night before I planned to take an old fridge to the tip, it worked but was ancient and well past it's sell by date. He said that his neighbours parents needed one so I delivered it to them as only about 15 miles away and found they were a lovely retired couple in their seventies living in a very clean council bungalow with few mod cons but they were very definitely struggling. 
Old school attitude, nothing on bought on tick too proud to ask for help their fridge had broken down 2 weeks earlier and they couldn't afford to have it repaired or replaced so milk was being kept in buckets of cold water etc. They both cried when I plugged in the fridge which was something I found very humbling.
They didn't class themselves as poor though they definitely were living hand to mouth.


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## Nigel Burden (28 Mar 2020)

Phil Pascoe":1xsbdyax said:


> I have a self employed neighbour who is worried about the plans for him to paid 80% of his earnings - he earns £40,000 p. a. ............. but according to HMRC he only earns £22,000. I can't say with any honesty that I feel sorry for him.



So that's £18,000 of untaxed income at 20per cent = £ 3600 multiplied by however many years that this has been going on. I would echo your sentiments there Phil. 

Nigel.


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## Selwyn (28 Mar 2020)

Lons":22wsfrab said:


> Selwyn":22wsfrab said:
> 
> 
> > Look the panic buying was real for sure. Everyone thinks they didn't do any of it but actually pretty much everyone did. I'm not talking about trolleys full of toilet roll but everyone bought a little bit more of this and that and created a panic.
> ...



I wasn't even in the country when the panic buying was going on. So I definitely didn't do any. 

Don't be bothering with click and collect/ delivery at the moment that is fuelling the problems. Put some nitrile gloves on and go in and buy a basketful of goods that will keep you and your family going for a week.


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## RogerS (28 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":33hdpf97 said:


> Lons":33hdpf97 said:
> 
> 
> > Selwyn":33hdpf97 said:
> ...



And thus completely ignoring Govt advice- especially for the elderly and vulnerable. But then, you know best.


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## Selwyn (28 Mar 2020)

Is Lons really elderly and vulnerable or is he quite capable of holding a shopping basket? Must be astonishing he can even do any woodwork if he is unable to go shopping for food. I am pretty sure Govt said to continue shopping for food with the appropriate precautions

As all supermarkets and suppliers have said repeatedly there is no shortage of food. There is no shortage of food. There is no shortage of food. There were plenty of resturants/ takeaways selling food. 

There was a temporary surge whereby people were not prepared for the need to make alternative meals from what was left. That is quite different to starving and genuine need. I think you are too featherbedded quite frankly - what do you do for a living?


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## Andy Kev. (28 Mar 2020)

RogerS":ybni22it said:


> Yes, it is true to say that there are some who are, to use an old-fashioned phrase, 'swinging the lead'. Just as there are some folk in employment fiddling expenses.
> 
> But equally, there are genuine folk who are very much living hand-to-mouth on a daily basis.


I agree with that entirely and it brings us to something which I've believed for quite a while and that national government is incapable of addressing local problems efficiently as it simply has neither the time not capacity to thoroughly assess every case.

I imagine that many of us would be prepared to see the system being very generous to e.g. a suddenly widowed woman whose sole breadwinner is no longer there but who has to be at home because her children are at an age which requires her presence if they are to be well brought up.

OTH the kind of people illustrated in some of the cases cited here need a firm gripping. We could do something along the lines of pass a law which says that if you want to receive any benefit at all you sign up to agree to close supervision and control of your spending where there are grounds to believe that you are financially irresponsible and/or of anti-social habits. No signature, no money whatsoever and kids taken into care.

You could perhaps target benefits in this way if decision making was at the lowest practical level e.g. parish/village etc. In other words, decisions to be taken by people who know or at least can rapidly find out all about potential "clients". Get the local vicar, local bobby (if they still have them) and respectable members of the community on the steering committee.

All the govt. would then have to do would be to pass cash down the chain, safe in the knowledge that it would be spent more efficiently and in a more targeted way.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":14p8zoy1 said:


> Is Lons really elderly and vulnerable or is he quite capable of holding a shopping basket?



I won't answer for him but I would come within spitting distance (a good measure, actually) of more people in five minutes in a supermarket than I've met and kept my distance from in three weeks. Work it out.


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## Selwyn (28 Mar 2020)

When you go to the shop - keep moving, have you list, don't cough on people and do it quickly. The chances of significant viral load are pretty damn low


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

and pretty damn lower if you don't go there.


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## Selwyn (28 Mar 2020)

Well don't got there then. 

But you have to eat so just go efficiently and quickly.


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## RogerS (28 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":hal0f5dz said:


> When you go to the shop - keep moving, have you list, don't cough on people and do it quickly. The chances of significant viral load are pretty damn low



Thank you for your 'advice'. I think I'd prefer to take any advice regarding social-distancing from someone who actually knows what they are talking about.


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## nev (28 Mar 2020)

STOP with the personal insults please.

It seems that any thread mention of the C word now is degenerating into personal digs.

At this rate it's heading to being another taboo subject like politics.

So if you cannot be polite and friendly in your discussions then it will end up in the bin.

Keep calm and carry on.


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## Rorschach (28 Mar 2020)

There are definitely people who know how to play they system and people that are genuinely struggling, the latter seem rare, the former very common.

Many years ago now my parents got divorced. My father being old enough took early retirement and lived on cash he had stolen from the joint account. By figuring things very carefully his income was low enough (on paper) that he got away without paying any maintenance for myself and sister despite the fact he was living very comfortably of course. We were told the only way to force him to pay up was to engage in a private prosecution which of course my mother could not afford having already been taken to cleaners by his solicitors and having all joint savings stolen. 
My mother was working at the time to support us with help from my grandad. Her hours and earnings meant she was eligible for a few tax credits but little else. CAB told her she could give up work and get more benefits but her pride wouldn't let her. 

Pride and morals end up costing you money in this world unfortunately. 

The missus and I could live quite comfortably if we had a few kids and refused to work, the SIL basically did that, 3 kids, free house and hasn't worked since.

As to the SE grants they are offering. Lucky for me my declared income is genuine as it should be, I don't earn much but at the least the money from the government should stop me going into debt and keep the lights on etc.


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## RogerS (28 Mar 2020)

Rorschach":3fhhn91h said:


> .....
> As to the SE grants they are offering. Lucky for me my declared income is genuine as it should be, I don't earn much but at the least the money from the government should stop me going into debt and keep the lights on etc.



Fingers crossed for you.


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## MikeK (28 Mar 2020)

My wife and I returned from our weekend shopping at the local Rewe. The store has a new "one out, one in" policy for Saturday shoppers, but our wait was less than five minutes. Fortunately, the weather is great.

Once inside, I noticed all of the shelves and food bins were mostly to fully stocked, with store employees restocking in real time. Plenty of flour, sugar, pasta, packaged bread, meats, cheeses, vegetables, and fruits...just like it was before the hoarding rage started. The toilet and kitchen paper shelves were about two-thirds full with several brands. At the checkout line, there was a pallet each of toilet and kitchen paper, with a sign notifying customers of the purchase limit of one package per customer per visit. I didn't think to look for hand sanitizer.

Since we still had plenty of paper from our visit two months ago, we didn't buy any. While waiting in line to enter the store, I noticed that at least half of the customers leaving didn't have toilet paper in their carts. Hopefully the hoarding madness is over for my area.


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## Rorschach (28 Mar 2020)

RogerS":3030at81 said:


> Rorschach":3030at81 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Thanks. I can do a little bit of work during all of this, but I have no guarantees of selling it after so will be nice to have at least some income. Mostly I am going to spend my time prepping stock and getting ready for things getting back to normal, if they do.


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## ScaredyCat (28 Mar 2020)

The plural of anecdote is not data

.


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## Geoff_S (28 Mar 2020)

ScaredyCat":1bpm4h68 said:


> The plural of anecdote is not data
> 
> .



I like that! I can use that statement in the future if you don’t mind  Nice one


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## Bm101 (28 Mar 2020)

One thing no one seems to have touched on is the ramifications of the fact that lots if people can't cook basic recipes anymore.
They can't take a half empty fridge and a cupboard of tins and eke out various meals. If it's not coming from a packet ready prepared they have no idea. Literally. Ties in with talk of poverty. People eating cr*p out of packets and there's a worldwide obesity health crisis. Its almost like theres a link. But it's _cheaper_ to eat well if you can cook 6 or 7 basic recipes and have a basic understanding of food groups and nutrition etc. Even if you can't now, start and within weeks it's old hat. It's _*that*_ easy. 
At the start of this I went to my usual local chinese supermarket. I bought a sack of rice and a sack of onions. Some frozen fish and chicken. Oh and some big old bottles of mushroom sauce and oil and so on. Nothing I had to clear any space for in the freezer. I always buy a sack of rice because it's so much cheaper and I eat a lot of rice compared to most window cleaners lol. Came to seventy quid. There was no panic but I do have two young kids and I follow the news and not just from uk TV... I wanted to be sensibly prepared. 
Everything else I need to cook I pretty much have. Herbs spices etc. No need to run around sainsburys buying stuff like a demented fool.
Shortages from staying indoors will be green and red food. Veg and fruit. Especially for the kids. Not uk shortages but household. And the kids are learning fast.
When the time comes I'll get masked/gloved up, I'll go and get said food from shops and the brave souls still working in retail and then I'll come home take me work boots off chuck em in the van. Take my gloves off. Disinfect my shopping. Strip off and chuck it in the washer go and have a shower to keep my house as safe as possible. 

And carry on. 
Stand up straight people, remember the iron in your blood.
Stop arguing ffs. It helps no one.
No one.
I've seen enough small acts of kindness in the last two weeks that it has given me hope. And I was pretty much done with people at points to be honest. 
If you're stuck at home and you're feeling in a tight place read Slaughterhouse five by Kurt Vonnegut. If you read it before. Read it again. :wink: 

Regards
Chris


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## doctor Bob (28 Mar 2020)

On balance I'm seeing more good than bad.
I live in a village, maybe it's a bit more of a "closer" community, who knows.

Those treating this crisis as a holiday are very annoying and probably costing others their lives.


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## Rorschach (28 Mar 2020)

I think quite a few people will be learning to cook right now.

Maybe being able to cook is why some people aren't panic buying. I didn't panic buy and we cook almost 99% of our meals from scratch, very little pre-prepared foods in our diet.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2020)

Ditto. I have bought a lot from https://www.buywholefoodsonline.co.uk/ over a few years, so have a good stock of dried stuff, herbs and spices etc. They're in a a bit a turmoil at the moment, but well worth a look if you cook seriously. Sign up for the mailshots and they in normal times have a good freebie every week. In fact sign up with two email addresses - sometimes the offers coming through differ, and one is more useable than the other. I have no qualms about giving them a plug - they are an excellent firm to deal with.


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## Bm101 (28 Mar 2020)

Cheers Phil!


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## AJB Temple (28 Mar 2020)

Dr Bob is right. I see a lot of good too: 

No plane noise or pollution
No rail noise or pollution
Very few cars and minimal pollution
The environment is having a rest from human obliteration
The birds are singing - loudly
Fewer idiotic spam calls
The sky and air feels cleaner
I hope we cut down dramatically on air and cruise travel
Turns out many can work from home - so less commuting - lets hope it sticks
We do not actually need all these coffee shops and fast food places
People helping each other
Respect for nurses, doctors and teachers
No one is paying needy celebrities any attention
People are actually trying to exercise
People are learning to cook
Supermarkets have realised they don't need 60 different types of properties
People have started to grow stuff
People are baking bread
Antagonistic party politics is looking silly
Parents are focussed on their children
Those of us with hobbies are pursuing them
Those without hobbies are finding them
Families are phoning each other up
We hear much less vegan preaching
Maybe students will realise how pointless some degrees are when push comes to shove
Rich people are still being stupid and selfish, but some are not
We are not producing crazy quantities of cars that no one needs
We are recycling more
Pointless disposable fashion is dying out
People have realised that ready meals and takeaways are pointlessly expensive
Some people are learning languages and musical instruments

No doubt we can all see positives. 

AJ


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## Lons (28 Mar 2020)

Selwyn":1518v5vm said:


> Is Lons really elderly and vulnerable or is he quite capable of holding a shopping basket? Must be astonishing he can even do any woodwork if he is unable to go shopping for food. I am pretty sure Govt said to continue shopping for food with the appropriate precautions


WOW :roll: 

I'm 71 and am vulnerable apparently because of age and mild hypertension, my wife is more vulnerable due to asthma and a couple of other issues if you must know. Yes I'm capable of shopping however......


> Don't be bothering with click and collect/ delivery at the moment that is fuelling the problems. Put some nitrile gloves on and go in and buy a basketful of goods that will keep you and your family going for a week.



* Click and collect means that I come into contact, at a safe distance from one person, minimum exposure to me and that member of staff plus prepaid so no pressing buttons.
* Shopping means joining a queue and trundling around the store in contact with loads of other shoppers and members of staff which equals lots of exposure to all those concerned. If you think you can stay a safe distance from everyone in a busy supermarket you're in cloud cuckooland.

You need to use some commonsense man (hammer)
_Note to Nev: I've edited out the 2 very mild insults, trust that's acceptable _


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## Lons (28 Mar 2020)

RogerS":2lc3cla8 said:


> Rorschach":2lc3cla8 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...


+1 Rorschach, sad story about your father and hats off to your mum for bringing you up with values.


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## ScaredyCat (28 Mar 2020)

Geoff_S":hgv0zpwx said:


> I like that! I can use that statement in the future if you don’t mind  Nice one



It's not mine, so as far as I'm concerned yeah, go ahead 

.


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## Trainee neophyte (29 Mar 2020)

AJB Temple":3pba5b5q said:


> Dr Bob is right. I see a lot of good too:
> 
> No plane noise or pollution
> No rail noise or pollution
> ...



A fine list, but there are a vast number of people rather dependent on all the activity currently not happening. If we want to continue on like this, how is everyone going to live? All that debt needing repaying - there will be some hungry bankers if it carries on like this.

The vegan preaching I can certainly do without.


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## rafezetter (31 Mar 2020)

AJB Temple":90r7uzps said:


> Dr Bob is right. I see a lot of good too:
> 
> No plane noise or pollution
> No rail noise or pollution
> ...



There was a news bulletin on he radit that said Goats have taken over some place in Wales, might have been llandudno - a bloke who was interviewed over the phone said "now the humans have gone, nature has moved back"

I kinda like that to be honest.

I got a chirpy "hello!" from a guy walking his dog the other direction, when I walked to the (closed) post office to buy more electric and gas - seeing fathers out riding bikes with thier kids, and even got a wave from the neighbour opposite.

I REALLY hope humanity doesn't revert after all this - at the very least those in the frontline have now proven thier worth beyond measure and should get better support from the Govt and the general public as a whole.

In lots of ways I'm really pleased this has happened - not the deaths and rubbish side of humanity obviously - but all the stuff above and more.


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## Bm101 (31 Mar 2020)

rafezetter":2zunx6id said:


> There was a news bulletin on he radit that said Goats have taken over some place in Wales, might have been llandudno - a bloke who was interviewed over the phone said "now the humans have gone, nature has moved back"



To be fair I used to live in North Wales. I'm half Welsh so no anti Cymraeg bias here. It was like that in 1992 when I lived in the Carneddi.
8)


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## Trevanion (31 Mar 2020)

Bm101":2pyofq3v said:


> To be fair I used to live in North Wales. I'm half Welsh so no anti Cymraeg bias here. It was like that in 1992 when I lived in the Carneddi.
> 8)



Yeah, I don't know what all the fuss is about, it's just like any other Tuesday.


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## SBJ (31 Mar 2020)

Trainee neophyte":30sjja6p said:


> The vegan preaching I can certainly do without.



Guilt complex?


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Trainee neophyte (1 Apr 2020)

SBJ":1i6pyzy5 said:


> Trainee neophyte":1i6pyzy5 said:
> 
> 
> > The vegan preaching I can certainly do without.
> ...



I dislike vegans because they want to outlaw my way of life. Other than that, i don't really have a interest in what fussy eaters want to eat or not eat.


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## D_W (2 Apr 2020)

SBJ":ug6er94u said:


> Trainee neophyte":ug6er94u said:
> 
> 
> > The vegan preaching I can certainly do without.
> ...



Probably something to do with a very small % of people. The rest of us just don't care, and it's sort of like being told about something you don't care about over and over, but nobody will stop talking when you tell them you don't care.


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## doctor Bob (2 Apr 2020)

Trainee neophyte":3s3kcvi8 said:


> I dislike vegans because they want to outlaw my way of life.



Really, I just thought they had made a choice for their own way of life. The vegans I know never preach to me, let alone suggesting my lifestyle should be outlawed. I suspect you have read too much hype.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Apr 2020)

How can you tell a vegan? .................................. You can't. They tell you.


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## RogerS (2 Apr 2020)

Phil Pascoe":37dlif6x said:


> How can you tell a vegan? .................................. You can't. They tell you.



I thought it was smelly feet ! Wearing all that plastic :wink:


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## Trainee neophyte (3 Apr 2020)

doctor Bob":3v5qk2bv said:


> Trainee neophyte":3v5qk2bv said:
> 
> 
> > I dislike vegans because they want to outlaw my way of life.
> ...



Perhaps we should have a "Hug a Vegan" day. Be nice to them. Turn the other cheek, as it were.


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## SBJ (3 Apr 2020)

RogerS":3fxyfhh4 said:


> Phil Pascoe":3fxyfhh4 said:
> 
> 
> > How can you tell a vegan? .................................. You can't. They tell you.
> ...


Plastic? 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## RogerS (3 Apr 2020)

SBJ":3pczw7ka said:


> RogerS":3pczw7ka said:
> 
> 
> > Phil Pascoe":3pczw7ka said:
> ...



Yup..all the vegans I've ever worked with have either worn plastic shoes or equally manky trainers.


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## Trainee neophyte (3 Apr 2020)

SBJ":1s1qj9w0 said:


> Trainee neophyte":1s1qj9w0 said:
> 
> 
> > The vegan preaching I can certainly do without.
> ...



I've been ruminating on this today, and I think that I owe you an apology: my answer was particularly , and unnecessarily, obstreperous.

My problem with vegans (and I admit, I do have a problem with vegans) is that I don't like proselytising religions. Vegetarianism is a huge religious movement, which has the entire gamut of believers, from hard-core fundamentalist raw-foodists and animal-rights types through the wide range of virtue-signalling do-gooders, and out the other side with the C of E style token pretend believers such as "flexitarians". I think I am uncomfortable with any religious enthusiast who infers that I am immoral, murderous, violent and unworthy. It doesn't have to be vegetablists, I am much the same with any excessively preachy religion such as environmentalism for example. This would appear to be a deep-rooted insecurity on my part for which I probably need therapy. On that basis, I appear to have been taking cheap shots without justification, for which I apologise. I must try to do better (have you hugged a vegan today?)

This is me trying to turn over a new leaf - let's see how I do.


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## SBJ (3 Apr 2020)

RogerS":1z9fylls said:


> SBJ":1z9fylls said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":1z9fylls said:
> ...


Haha, your ignorance is wonderful! You do realise that your surrounded by vegans don't you? We're everywhere!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2020)

I don't have a problem with vegans, I do have a problem with PETA though.


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## RogerS (3 Apr 2020)

SBJ":1uuqijv4 said:


> RogerS":1uuqijv4 said:
> 
> 
> > Yup..all the vegans I've ever worked with have either worn plastic shoes or equally manky trainers.
> ...



How so ? I'm just stating a fact. Take it or leave it. Whatever.


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## flying haggis (5 Apr 2020)

Rorschach":2rpl0wm7 said:


> I don't have a problem with vegans, I do have a problem with PETA though.


what is the problem with People Eating Tasty Animals ??


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Apr 2020)

IF god didn't want animals to get eaten why did he make them taste so good?


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## Jake (5 Apr 2020)

Phil Pascoe":v9vtuppq said:


> IF god didn't want animals to get eaten why did he make them taste so good?



I'm no veggie but here's an issue with that argument 

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 48706.html


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Apr 2020)

Well, apparently the old cartoons showing cannibals around the cauldron containing a missionary wasn't far from truth - missionaries didn't drink or smoke so their flesh didn't get tainted.


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## Trevanion (5 Apr 2020)

It all depends on characteristics. Age, health and diet play a huge factor in the taste just the same as any other animal.

I find it's best slow-cooked over a few hours.


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## Andy Kev. (5 Apr 2020)

I've only ever met two vegans but they both managed to irritate me in exactly the same way. In each case, not being aware of their preferences, I offered/suggested eating something which fell outside their preferences and a martyrish voice and expression was adopted as they told me "I can't eat that."

It was the "can't" as if they were the victims of a medical condition that got my goat. "Won't" or "refuse to" would have been fine.

In any event veganism is nuts in purely physiological terms. We have evolved as omnivores and that settles it for me. I share concerns about animal welfare e.g. I think it disgusting the way some animals are kept just so that we can have cheap meat and I would gladly accept price rises if it met farm animals leading better lives but that is another issue.


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## Sonny184 (5 Apr 2020)

Hi. Newbie here. It doesn't add much to the conversation but just to say I am a vegetarian for the past 34 years and many of my work colleagues still don't know.
A couple of my neighbours do and some of the family and that's about it. I have my reasons and I have no intention to talk about them or to preach my way of life to others. There are us quiet ones out there too!


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## RogerS (5 Apr 2020)

Sonny184":1jp4awkx said:


> Hi. Newbie here. It doesn't add much to the conversation but just to say I am a vegetarian for the past 34 years and many of my work colleagues still don't know.
> A couple of my neighbours do and some of the family and that's about it. I have my reasons and I have no intention to talk about them or to preach my way of life to others. There are us quiet ones out there too!



I always find that vegetarians are the sensible ones, as you say.


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## SBJ (5 Apr 2020)

Trainee neophyte":18dbm6o6 said:


> SBJ":18dbm6o6 said:
> 
> 
> > Trainee neophyte":18dbm6o6 said:
> ...


No need for an apology. Interesting that you took the time to reflect on your thoughts. 

We live in an age where there is so much information available. Most people will engage with me if the subject comes up (you'd be surprised how much we talk about food), I'm only to happy to have a conversation about my behaviour and the reasons for it. However, there tends to be a few people who will be dismissive and sometimes outright rude ( and they tend to be 'older' men). Some are so scared/uninformed/socially engrained in their behaviour that they are unable to take a look at their own behaviour whilst happy to criticize others.

You get used to it, you can spot it here quite easily. 

Anyway, last time I had a discussion here that moved toward the subject of veganism it got shut down, so best I bow out now!!!!

(I think there are much worse religions than us veggies by the way - not that I consider it a religion by the way!)

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Trainee neophyte (6 Apr 2020)

SBJ":1i230x5m said:


> No need for an apology. Interesting that you took the time to reflect on your thoughts.
> 
> We live in an age where there is so much information available. Most people will engage with me if the subject comes up (you'd be surprised how much we talk about food), I'm only to happy to have a conversation about my behaviour and the reasons for it. However, there tends to be a few people who will be dismissive and sometimes outright rude ( and they tend to be 'older' men). Some are so scared/uninformed/socially engrained in their behaviour that they are unable to take a look at their own behaviour whilst happy to criticize others.
> 
> ...



We will know it's a real religion when fruitarians and raw-foodists start waging jihad on each other for being blasphemous. Until that happy day,I will take a vegan over a fundamentalist every time.


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2020)

Fixed your original reply for you, do you sense the irony yet?


Trainee neophyte":qxzwotkj said:


> I've been ruminating on this today, and I think that I owe you an apology: my answer was particularly , and unnecessarily, obstreperous.
> 
> My problem with *carnists* (and I admit, I do have a problem with *carnists*) is that I don't like proselytising religions. *Carnism* is a huge religious movement, which has the entire gamut of believers, from hard-core fundamentalist raw-foodists and *animal-farming* types through the wide range of virtue-signalling do-gooders, and out the other side with the C of E style token pretend believers such as "flexitarians". I think I am uncomfortable with any religious enthusiast who infers that I am immoral, murderous, violent and unworthy. It doesn't have to be *meat-eaters*, I am much the same with any excessively preachy religion such as environmentalism for example. This would appear to be a deep-rooted insecurity on my part for which I probably need therapy. On that basis, I appear to have been taking cheap shots without justification, for which I apologise. I must try to do better (have you hugged a *carnist* today?)
> 
> This is me trying to turn over a new leaf - let's see how I do.



The only edit which I omitted was the reference to "immoral, murderous, violent and unworthy" which I thought was a strange conclusion in the first place, but that's all yours.

*Edited* with bigger text to appease the few.....


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## RogerS (6 Apr 2020)

shed9":1v9ei8yw said:


> Fixed your original reply for you, do you sense the irony yet?
> 
> 
> Trainee neophyte":1v9ei8yw said:
> ...



Modifying someone's post in a 'quote' is not acceptable. Even in jest.


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2020)

RogerS":3c3kl0o8 said:


> shed9":3c3kl0o8 said:
> 
> 
> > Fixed your original reply for you, do you sense the irony yet?
> ...


Does that include reposting it as well?


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## RogerS (6 Apr 2020)

shed9":3i78kx66 said:


> RogerS":3i78kx66 said:
> 
> 
> > shed9":3i78kx66 said:
> ...



Yes...as it clarifies your stupidity.


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2020)

RogerS":2np0fmh7 said:


> Yes...as it clarifies your stupidity.


But not yours apparently? Or indeed your ability to insult so quickly.


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## Richard_C (6 Apr 2020)

This has gone so far off the original and thoughtful question that its of no relevance to those who contributed earlier. Neither of the most recent protagonists can 'win'. Isn't it time to stop?


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2020)

Richard_C":3roqs7z6 said:


> This has gone so far off the original and thoughtful question that its of no relevance to those who contributed earlier. Neither of the most recent protagonists can 'win'. Isn't it time to stop?


Agree with you there. No winners in this, apologies to Trainee neophyte and RogerS. Surreal times right now and if we met in real life I'd like to think it would be a different conversation.

Stay safe everyone.


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## garethharvey (9 Apr 2020)

It's sad times that people are hoarding. They have no consideration for those that are unable to even get to the shops.

My wife and I are both in our 40's, she had an organ transplant 18 months ago and is now on immunosuppressants. We have both been advised to stay locked up for 12 weeks.

Just before she received the letter, I took a trip to our local Sainsbury's with other vulnerable shoppers at 8:00 in the morning.

The shelves were empty. It was an incredibly sad sight, people with a genuine need, all vulnerable were looking for food.

The mentality of these people is unreal. If one of my friends did this, they would no longer be a friend of mine.


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