# Sharpening stone



## Pete Hughes (20 May 2009)

I have inherited a number of woodworking tools, the majority I recognise and know how to, in a fashion, use.
However, one item which at the moment is confusing me is what I believe to be a "Japanese Water Stone". Can anyone advise on this, it is approximately 6ins x 3ins x 1/2 ins and reddish in colour and I am understanding that to use it it needs to be soaked in water?

Pete


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## Philly (21 May 2009)

Pete 
Sounds like a coarse waterstone. Yes, it needs to be soaked in water before using it, and the surface kept wet while working on it. They do cut fast, though.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Mikey R (21 May 2009)

It could be an India oilstone? Mine are an orangy red colour. 

EDIT: is there an easy way to check which type it is?

Heres a pic from the Rutlands website:







(Dont ask me why the surface has beads of water on it - marketteering I would guess)


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## digitalbot (22 May 2009)

Strangley I have come by two stones recently. They are both in roughly made pine boxes, but if you prise them out they are all lumpy and knobbly underneath. Held in place by what looks like some sort of glue. They are also only about 1" wide as well. One is a sort of dark grey and the other is a light green. Any suggestions what they are before I butcher them :?:


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## AndyT (22 May 2009)

Sounds like they could be natural stones with only one working face made flat - unlike an artificial stone of glued-together grit, moulded to a perfect cuboid. So they might be really good, or really dreadful. Are they old?


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## bugbear (26 May 2009)

digitalbot":238kfnfb said:


> Strangley I have come by two stones recently. They are both in roughly made pine boxes, but if you prise them out they are all lumpy and knobbly underneath. Held in place by what looks like some sort of glue. They are also only about 1" wide as well. One is a sort of dark grey and the other is a light green. Any suggestions what they are before I butcher them :?:



Don't know about the dark one, but they are indeed (rather old) natural stones.

I think the green one is a "Charnley Forest", a widely used "finishing" stone.

BugBear


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## AndyT (27 May 2009)

Charnley Forest - that rings a bell. 

In "The Village Carpenter" Walter Rose looks back on his boyhood and describes how all the men in his father's business used Charnley Forest stones - "even the best were dreadfully slow" - and then in 1889 "the Washita, an imported stone appeared on the English market, and was hailed with delight by all woodworkers who straightway discarded their 'Charnley Forests' for ever."

I'd recommend the book to anyone that doesn't already know it. It's a fascinating mixture of reminiscences, technical detail and admiration for real craftsmanship.

Andy


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## Pete Hughes (1 Jun 2009)

Cheers for that, as to the possiblity of India Oilstone, I know it is not one of those. I remember reading somewhere that a "Nigura" stone is used in conjuction? but cannot come across that piece of info again.

Would it help Philly, and all other helpful people, if I add a picture?


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## Philly (1 Jun 2009)

Pete
A nagura is used to clean the surface of the fine polishing stones - not really needed for the coarse stones. Just flatten the stone on a piece of sandpaper or with a diamond plate, add some water and you're off.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Argus (1 Jun 2009)

.

It could be a Japanese water stone, though at 1/2" thick it's well worn. They are normally at least 1-1/2" thick when new.

Some oil stones were reddish in colour and are normally quite hard.

Two quick ways to find out is to put it in a bucket of water. If it's a water stone it will absorb water and you may see a set of bubbles coming from it.

If not, it's an oil stone.

Or, scratch the edge with a nail. Jap stones are very soft.


.


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## bugbear (1 Jun 2009)

AndyT":3t6h3omu said:


> Charnley Forest - that rings a bell.
> 
> In "The Village Carpenter" Walter Rose looks back on his boyhood and describes how all the men in his father's business used Charnley Forest stones - "even the best were dreadfully slow" - and then in 1889 "the Washita, an imported stone appeared on the English market, and was hailed with delight by all woodworkers who straightway discarded their 'Charnley Forests' for ever."
> 
> ...



And almost infinitly better than "The WheelWright's Shop" by Sturt, which is singularly joyless.

Rose is a wonderful read.

BugBear


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## lurker (1 Jun 2009)

I have a little historical research project under way ref Charnley forest stones. ( eg I have exclusive access to the original quarry :lol: )
Will reveal more at a later date

If anyone has info regards these stones I'd be glad to hear from them.


However I'm getting quite expert at identifing them, if there is someway you can get it to me to look at.

Also I can (possibily) refurbish.


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## bugbear (1 Jun 2009)

lurker":1vjfp5sy said:


> I have a little historical research project under way ref Charnley forest stones. ( eg I have exclusive access to the original quarry :lol: )
> Will reveal more at a later date
> 
> If anyone has info regards these stones I'd be glad to hear from them.



http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... =1#message

BugBear


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## AndyT (1 Jun 2009)

Lurker - there are plenty of C19th references here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=...ct=result&q=charnley+forest&btnG=Search+Books

though most of them repeat the same stuff.

Andy


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## lurker (2 Jun 2009)

Thanks Chaps :lol: 

Andy I've seen that one

BB new to me so thanks


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## ivan (10 Jun 2009)

I think there used to be a lot of small stones, about 5x1" about, for sharpening cutthroat razors (every man had one). If that was the use of yours, they are probably worn hollow. I have a slate, and a "Belgian stone" one somewhere. I wonder what Belgian stone is?


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## bugbear (10 Jun 2009)

ivan":1zl6dylf said:


> I wonder what Belgian stone is?



Not famous?

  

BugBear


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## lurker (11 Jun 2009)

bugbear":1vce0h2b said:


> ivan":1vce0h2b said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what Belgian stone is?
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Could is be a Olde worlde corruption a bit like Jeruselem artichokes


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## bugbear (11 Jun 2009)

lurker":1cv837qz said:


> bugbear":1cv837qz said:
> 
> 
> > ivan":1cv837qz said:
> ...



http://www.ardennes-etape.com/en/fichea ... bc7233d76c

http://uk.ardennes-coticule.com/index.asp?id=384

Well respected for sharpening razors, google tells me.

BugBear


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## digitalbot (12 Jun 2009)

The green one is damn hard and polishes like you wouldn't believe, but as has been said, it's terribly slow ( not to mention awkward only having about 1"width of stone to work on). 
Do these sorts of stones use oil or water as a lubricant?

I'll see if I can get a piccie up soon so maybe somebody can give me a definitive answer as to what they are.


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## digitalbot (17 Jun 2009)

Here are the "odd" stones. The reddy grey one is somewhat soft so maybe it's a waterstone but the green one is like granite.
Anyway, any info would be appreciated.


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## bugbear (22 Jun 2009)

digitalbot":2pu3a9g7 said:


> Here are the "odd" stones. The reddy grey one is somewhat soft so maybe it's a waterstone but the green one is like granite.
> Anyway, any info would be appreciated.



Green one - definitely Charnley Forest - classic "finishing" oil stone, widely referenced in pre 1950's books. I wouldn't say it's "hard as granite" - it's quite easy to stick the corner of a small chisel into it :-(

Gray one (I'm not seeing any "red" on my display). Looks like one-of-the-many slate stones. The grit size of these varies all over the place (depending on which quarry), but they're all very soft. I find them quite good for kitchen knives.

BugBear


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## digitalbot (22 Jun 2009)

> I wouldn't say it's "hard as granite" - it's quite easy to stick the corner of a small chisel into it


Well it's definitely the hardest stone i've come across.
And thanks for letting me know that it's oil you use for cutting. I was trying water!


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## Sharpdon (22 Jun 2009)

Pete Hughes":3b0p4zue said:


> Can anyone advise on this, it is approximately 6ins x 3ins x 1/2 ins and reddish in colour and I am understanding that to use it it needs to be soaked in water?
> 
> Pete


Pete: Based on the color, it may be about a 1200 to 1500 grit (JIS) stone. A picture would help. There are two good articles on how to prepare and maintain water stones posted on the Japan Woodworker site. The one is about synthetic stones (which are soaked) and the other is about natural stones (which are not soaked). This is good reference material. I hope it helps you.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/newswire.asp?content_id=11508

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/newswire.asp?content_id=11513


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## forcemax (1 Jul 2009)

hey,begginer,why don't you try Chinese wet stone,

http://www.forcemax-handtools.com/slow-speed-wet-sharpener


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## studders (1 Jul 2009)

forcemax":xs91ofqk said:


> hey,begginer,why don't you try Chinese wet stone,
> 
> http://www.forcemax-handtools.com/slow-speed-wet-sharpener



All your posts seem to be adverts? Shouldn't you be paying for that?


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## Pete. (21 Jan 2011)

hello, would you be willing to sell the charnley stone?


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## jimi43 (21 Jan 2011)

I'm glad this subject has come up as I have been thinking about a stone I got at a bootfair a while back....






It's a kind of sandy grey and quite easily lapped with wet and dry...






It's rather nice to use and hones very finely....

It is in a nice old wooden base 8" long by 2 1/2" wide at the widest end.

It takes water easily and makes a fine slurry

Any ideas chaps?

Jim


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## bugbear (21 Jan 2011)

jimi43":3rg8sito said:


> I'm glad this subject has come up as I have been thinking about a stone I got at a bootfair a while back....
> 
> 
> It's a kind of sandy grey and quite easily lapped with wet and dry...
> ...



Well the OP was years ago, but whatever,

I have a very similar stone, which I also don't know the identity of. However my stone is much smaller - around 6x1 1/4", and is mounted in/on a rather fancy mahogany stand.

This has always made me suspect it was used for razors, which would also fit nicely with your description of the properties.

So - you've (probably) got a large example of a stone deemed good enough for use on razors. Nice find.

For elimination, it's not turkey stone - I've got a labelled-in-a-box one of those, and it's quite different.

It may be one of the Belgian coticules.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (21 Jan 2011)

Watcha BB!

Crikey...I didn't spot the date of the original post! (homer) 

It was rather late when I read the post...ancient dog I have could not sleep again...so I was up trolling the forums!

Yes...agree...it looks like a razor honing stone...I started to look at the various examples after posting these pictures and was led into a veritible world of potential Sweeneys...

The thing to note is that they refer to woodworkers as showing interest in "their" stones now (pushing up the eBay prices!)...particularly the Charnleys and other ancient exotic sedimentaries.

Looking at the Belgian Coticules...it looks more bland that the colours they come in but it is not far off. Perhaps, as in the Charnley variations...they come in different grades...grits and parts of the quarry!

Interesting new subject for me though....

Cheers

Jim


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## bugbear (21 Jan 2011)

jimi43":2px9ifz3 said:


> The thing to note is that they refer to woodworkers as showing interest in "their" stones now (pushing up the eBay prices!)...particularly the Charnleys and other ancient exotic sedimentaries.



It may be time to take "some" of my Charnley's, cut them in razor-suitable sizes, and flog 'em on eBay then...

I mean, Charnleys pop up all the time at car boots and auctions. I've seen several that are old enough that the only flat(*) surface is the top.

The ends, sides, and bottom are all "as quarried"

BugBear

(*) actually, dished to hell, usually.


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## jimi43 (21 Jan 2011)

I now have another target search for this season's bootfairs! I can hardly wait. I must say, stones in general were not on my scan horizon last year as I knew so little about them...

You live and learn!

Thanks for the info...a bit of a money-spinner methinks!

This woody thing is a never-ending source of amazement to me...you think you are starting to get "all" the knowledge and along comes another slope!

These natural stones look to be a rather expensive one too if you get hooked!

I love the quote in one thread I read about the quarryman at Charnley....Apparently you could go and pick your own stones IF you were able to answer some questions on woodworking put to you by the man! It reminds me of a Monty Python film!! One can imagine getting the last question wrong and disappearing into the depths of the quarry in a cloud of smoke!! :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## bugbear (21 Jan 2011)

jimi43":zrwq225k said:


> I now have another target search for this season's bootfairs! I can hardly wait. I must say, stones in general were not on my scan horizon last year as I knew so little about them...
> 
> You live and learn!
> 
> Thanks for the info...a bit of a money-spinner methinks!



Not worth getting up early for, IMHO, but each to their own.

You might be interested in this:

http://www.taths.org.uk/publications.htm



TATHS":zrwq225k said:


> Natural 19th and Early 20th Century
> Sharpening Stones and Hones
> 
> Brian Read and Doug Morgan
> ...



BugBear


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## LuptonM (21 Jan 2011)

jimi43":2tk6dbro said:


> Watcha BB!
> 
> Crikey...I didn't spot the date of the original post! (homer)
> 
> It was rather late when I read the post...ancient dog I have could not sleep again...so I was up *trolling* the forums!



Jacobs not going to be happy when he realises you've been stealing his workload!!!!! :mrgreen: 

PS: I mean no offence to the likes of Jacob; its a hard job and someone's got to do it


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## jimi43 (21 Jan 2011)

HA! Nice one LuptonM.....now what *do* you mean! :wink: 

BB....now you've got me interested in the books on the subject...thanks for pushing me down the slope! I shall blame you for this forever!! :mrgreen: :wink: 

Got any pics of your Charnleys? (you can't say that too often to a lady for instance!) :mrgreen: 

I took some more pics of mine today after relapping it (which took a few seconds) and wetting it and in natural daylight:






You can see the grain pattern in the stone now...

It is very flat but there ain't much protruding....






...so I will have to be a bit careful how many times I lap it!

Any more ideas?

Jim

UPDATE: There is a Belgian Coticule razor honing stone for sale HERE...

It is the colour of mine so I guess you are right BB! Well spotted!


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## ajdrapper (5 Feb 2011)

Hi all,

I have just found this site.

I have just taken up straight razor shaving and would like to get hold of a Charley Forrest Hone.

I am not looking for anything fancy or collectable, just a good working hone. I hear they give a good sharp edge and a good shave.

Any advice gratefully received, 

Thank.


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## Jacob (5 Feb 2011)

LuptonM":1gfpxgco said:


> jimi43":1gfpxgco said:
> 
> 
> > Watcha BB!
> ...


Wos he on about then?


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## toolsntat (6 Feb 2011)

lurker":k82ceug5 said:


> I have a little historical research project under way ref Charnley forest stones. ( eg I have exclusive access to the original quarry :lol: )
> Will reveal more at a later date
> 
> If anyone has info regards these stones I'd be glad to hear from them.




Did the project come to fruition :?: 

The TATHS booklet on sharpening stones is very detailed :wink: 

Andy


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