# Retaining wall?



## Paul.J (16 Sep 2013)

Hope you can help with this.
We have a concrete retaining wall on the side of the house which runs along side next doors side entrance which is about a 40" drop from our back garden.
A lot of the concrete has fell out recently for some reason so needs patching up.
It seems very sandy and dry,so what would be the best way to fix it so the new concrete holds firmly onto the old.
I was thinking of using a mix of ballast,concrete sand and cement which i saw on a DIY programme ages ago saying it was a lot stronger mix,or would just a balast and cement mix do or what do you think??
TIA.


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## finneyb (16 Sep 2013)

1. Add PVA glue to the concrete mix water
2. Cut back to sound concrete and prime with diluted PVA glue
Proportions should be on the PVA glue eg Unibond container

HTH

Brian


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## Mcluma (16 Sep 2013)

The reason for breaking could have been that water has entered the concrete and during the winter the frost has done its damage,

is there re-enforcement in the concrete wall? i take it there is not. otherwize it wouldn't break that easy,

I advise to have some steel rods drilled into the top of the wall, this will make the connection between the old and new concrete a whole lot stronger


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## Graham Orm (16 Sep 2013)

Sounds like it might be more than a patch up job if it's a concrete wall crumbling. Are you sure it's concrete and not rendered brick?


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## Paul.J (16 Sep 2013)

Thanks for the replies  
The wall is i presume as old as the house so 1930s and was fine up until some work was done next door,the house was renovated and nothing was said to me until i noticed it and how bad it was.I have mentioned it to the new neighbours and that i will need to come round and repair it,but from what i can see it isn't brick.I was thinking of banging in some lengths of steel to help hold the new concrete in place??
What sort of mix would be best to use?


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## Lons (16 Sep 2013)

Paul.J":nkfv3ttb said:


> Thanks for the replies
> The wall is i presume as old as the house so 1930s and was fine up until some work was done next door,the house was renovated and nothing was said to me until i noticed it and how bad it was.I have mentioned it to the new neighbours and that i will need to come round and repair it,but from what i can see it isn't brick.I was thinking of banging in some lengths of steel to help hold the new concrete in place??
> What sort of mix would be best to use?



Difficult to advise without seeing pics or knowing the size of the problem but...
You should use a mix of 1 part cement / 2 parts sand / 4 parts gravel (I use pea gravel as it's a smoother mix but any clean gravel would be ok). You can also buy a ready mixed sand / gravel mix but I prefer to see what's going in to it.

Do what the others said. Clean away all the loose stuff and wash the dust out. Drill holes into the remaining concrete and knock in some steel rods, 10mm rebar is ideal then paint with pva and concrete making sure it's well tamped. You can put additional re-inforcement into the supporting ground if you wish but I would use 6 or 10mm mesh.
It's important to ensure that the supporting ground or structure is solid and won't loosen or you're wasting your time. Also, if you can borrow a mixer - do so as it produces a much better mix than by hand. the area concerned may not warrant that of course.

Bob


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## finneyb (16 Sep 2013)

I'm having problems with the idea of drilling into the existing wall - its sandy - you could end up with a demolition job and need a new wall. 

How long do you intend to stay in the house? ie do you want a patch-up or is it a new wall now and save work in the future?

After you have cut back to sound concrete you will be able to better see if its a repair job or a new wall.

Brian


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## Hivenhoe (16 Sep 2013)

Wouldn't it be easier and probably safer in the long run to get someone around to do a proper inspection, given that it's a RETAINING wall? You don't have to follow their advice!


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## Graham Orm (16 Sep 2013)

Hivenhoe":1ro8ci7a said:


> Wouldn't it be easier and probably safer in the long run to get someone around to do a proper inspection, given that it's a RETAINING wall? You don't have to follow their advice!



+1


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## Lons (17 Sep 2013)

Without photos and more info, we're only guessing really!


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## CHJ (17 Sep 2013)

Paul, you refer to:-


> A lot of the concrete has fell out recently for some reason so needs patching up



Do you actually mean just the surface rendering that keeps the rain out and makes it look pretty.

If so then it needs the loose remains brushing off at least and treating with a bonding agent (PVA?) then applying a matching mix to that used originally I.E. it may have been a lime mortar mix as opposed to cement only.

Type "repairing rendered exterior walls" into google for some examples.


Any guidance as to why rendering has failed? is it just old age letting water into the rendering for frost to work on or is there by any chance an increase in water content behind the wall in your garden.


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## Paul.J (17 Sep 2013)

We did contact a local builder to come and have a look but he didn't turn up,which is not the first time a builder or other trade has done that,but from what i can see from our side the wall isn't bulging as we have the fence panels on top of it and as i say was fine.i will take some piccys when i get round there to have a proper look.


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## Paul.J (17 Sep 2013)

CHJ":3lu4zz9w said:


> Paul, you refer to:-
> 
> 
> > A lot of the concrete has fell out recently for some reason so needs patching up
> ...


Hi Chas.
No,not the rendering, big lumps have fell out all along the top edge from what i can see.I have had to put a brick under the one slab that was over part of the wall which is the part i am looking at,well that i can see more of.
The builder who worked on next door has cleared the mess up but didn't say anything to me about the wall??
I have looked on Google but didn't find much,nmainly filling cracks?


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## Graham Orm (17 Sep 2013)

Paul if you want any useable help from here I suggest you post some pictures. Advice on patching it up may be the wrong thing, it sounds to me like it might be a bigger job.


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## Hivenhoe (17 Sep 2013)

Did the builder use a power washer on it? They appear to create havoc with concrete etc but usually takes several months to see the results.


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## Paul.J (18 Sep 2013)

I am gonna try and catch em today so i can have a proper look,but have just missed em so will try later and i will get some piccys.
As far as i know no pressure washer was used but some work was been done down the side new slabs layed and new waste pipes put in etc.


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## Paul.J (18 Sep 2013)

As promised a piccy of the worst bit that has fell out.
Having looked at it now it is all still sold and does look like water may have got in and blown out.
Some of the render is loose so that will come off and re-done.
So what do you think.?


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## Graham Orm (18 Sep 2013)

Paul.J":28wpjbst said:


> As promised a piccy of the worst bit that has fell out.
> Having looked at it now it is all still sold and does look like water may have got in and blown out.
> Some of the render is loose so that will come off and re-done.
> So what do you think.?



Rebuild from scratch. You can patch it if you like but I think it'll just move again. It looks to me like the pressure from the ground behind it along with frost damage...and maybe some vibration have made it give. There's no way to patch it, you will have to demolish and re build. Sorry to be the barer of bad news.


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## Paul.J (18 Sep 2013)

Yes it is a lot worse than what i first thought and have just had a fellow forum member pop in and have a look and he said what you say.the rest of the wall though is sound all along.
When the builders were here they had the mini digger banging the bucket into the ground for some reason back and front gardens and we could feel the vibration through the house so perhaps thats what caused it??


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## Hivenhoe (18 Sep 2013)

It may be worth contacting your insurance company?


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## Deejay (18 Sep 2013)

Afternoon Paul

Two questions spring to mind.

Who owns the wall and should the building work next door have involved the Party Wall Act?

Cheers

Dave


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## Graham Orm (18 Sep 2013)

Paul.J":1cplinof said:


> Yes it is a lot worse than what i first thought and have just had a fellow forum member pop in and have a look and he said what you say.the rest of the wall though is sound all along.
> When the builders were here they had the mini digger banging the bucket into the ground for some reason back and front gardens and we could feel the vibration through the house so perhaps thats what caused it??



It very possibly did, but looking at the state it is in, I doubt you could prove it. Unless they actually damaged it directly I think you'd be on a hiding to nothing trying to get them to take responsibility. It looks like it's leaning further along as well.


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## Paul.J (18 Sep 2013)

Oh no Gray,i am not gonna try and get the builder to do anything or blaming him come to that matter just one of those things i suppose but was just at a loss as to what caused it as it was fine last time i saw it about twelve months ago.
I didn't notice any leaning or cracks when i inspected it,think it might just be the piccy.
Looks like i will have to get some quotes in :roll: 
Would it be an easy DIY job do you think?


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## Graham Orm (18 Sep 2013)

Paul.J":2kw3cl6h said:


> Oh no Gray,i am not gonna try and get the builder to do anything or blaming him come to that matter just one of those things i suppose but was just at a loss as to what caused it as it was fine last time i saw it about twelve months ago.
> I didn't notice any leaning or cracks when i inspected it,think it might just be the piccy.
> Looks like i will have to get some quotes in :roll:
> Would it be an easy DIY job do you think?



Not really if it's to be done properly. It needs knocking down and excavating behind, a good foundation then rebuilding. Hard graft and requiring bricklaying skills, unless you intend to put formers up and pour concrete again, then you'll need joinery skills instead of bricklaying.


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## Paul.J (18 Sep 2013)

Looks like i missed a couple of posts.
Dave- The wall is ours but not surewhat you mean about the party wall act??
Hivenhoe-Good point miight be wortha call to em.

I won't be doing that sort of work so its gonna have to be a builder.
I was prepared to patch it up but as you say might just all fall out again in a few years time,which is why i was going to bang some steel pins in to hold it better??
Where i thought it was dry and sandy it was just the top where i could see and reach from our side but it really is still solid.


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## Doug B (18 Sep 2013)

That's bad...... :shock: 

How long a section is it Paul, also what height & width?

Looks like they used stones out of the garden in the original :lol: 

Don't you know a couple of useful blokes who could give you a dig out :?: :-"


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## Hivenhoe (18 Sep 2013)

Could you post a pic showing next door as well, so we can see just what is being supported?


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## Deejay (18 Sep 2013)

Evening Paul

The Party Wall Act, as I understand it (I'm not a Lawyer) is intended to stop a neighbour doing work that will cause structural problems to you, or vice-versa. 

Have a look at ...

https://www.gov.uk/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidance

Cheers

Dave


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## Paul.J (19 Sep 2013)

Doug B":2eg6sc7f said:


> That's bad...... :shock:
> 
> How long a section is it Paul, also what height & width?
> 
> ...



Are you volunteering Doug  
The section thats fell out is about 8' long about 40" high but thickness i would guess at about 10" but i think it tapers down wider from what i remember when we done the fence when we first moved in??

Dave- If i have read that right its not a party wall,the whole of the wall is on our land and is the boundary line.
The section thats fell off is holding back soil in the back garden and runs along the length of the house into the front garden getting smaller in height down to about 6".


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## Lons (19 Sep 2013)

Hi Paul

It looks more serious than I originally thought (before you posted a pic). I also think it's best to do a re-build and unless you are competant, that means getting in the professionals which will be expensive though you might be able to mitigate some of the costs by doing the initial digging yourself or using cheap family labour!

On the subject of insurance, it probably is worth persuing but you need to check on your excess clause and be aware that your enquiry will be listed as an incident and logged on a database, (often even if you don't go ahead it can affect future premiums). Your neighbour will / should have home insurance also which most likely includes a public liability product which may cover your damage even if the builder who allegedly caused the damage won't accept responsibility so I'd have a word with them first.

It's a minefield really but you either have to bite the bullet and do it properly or patch and watch it fall out after the first winter IMO.

Bob


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## DMF (19 Sep 2013)

Paul,

one pic is not enough to to know exactly what is going on, can you post a load of hi res pics somewhere if not here?

IF the line of the wall is good at the base then it follows that there has been no ground shift, clean off ALL the lose and get some more pics taken. IF (in capitals once again!) you have a section where the top edge has failed then the question is why, this could range from tree roots to a bad mix on that section etc etc but it means that you only have to replace that section in one form or another, again dependent on what is there, get a level out and check for plumb etc.

The solution could just be to square it up, chem fix some re-bar into the good section either side, shutter up and pour, leaving enough room for finishing. 

Many years of groundwork a lot of it structural concrete means i could waffle on for ages but it's a bit pointless with out more pics / information, just remember this work involves a lot of costs generally, labor intensive, removal of waste etc if it can be repaired then that's the course to take. Render on retaining walls can fail whilst the structure remains sound.

I'm nowhere near you unfortunately but if you can get some decent shots up would be happy to discuss on the phone if it's of use to you. My initial thoughts are if the rest of the wall is good then stick a pin in with rebar drilled in at least 500mm either side to give some more support to the existing structure, aarrrgggghh im waffling :lol: 

Dean


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## Paul.J (19 Sep 2013)

All i can say at this stage is that after inspecting it yesterday the wall itself is stronger than i thought,the mix used that is, as its rock hard still.
There has been no movement outwards,the line of slabs i put down twenty years ago are still in line with walls edge.
There are no trees near by,and without seeing what fell out it might have been fixed before.
If i can go with a repair,i have seen one on Youtube where mesh is used to hold the new mix on,would this be adviseable or just drill rebar in??


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## Doug B (19 Sep 2013)

That's only just over half a cube of concrete Paul, I could sort it for you , but I'm busy really till the spring.
If you can wait I could do it then, it doesn't look too bad & I presume it's only retaining garden soil from next door.

PM me your phone number or I'll get it off the Shark next time I'm on touch with him.


Cheers.

Doug.

PS if ya string some Xmas lights along it you'd hardly notice it & there's only 12 odd weeks until then :lol: :lol:


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## DMF (19 Sep 2013)

Sounds more like a repair is on the cards then. In that case if you look at a circle divided into quarters you have a profile that looks like the top right quarter, rounded over basically, what you want is more of a bottom left of a square |_ with the left hand side of the _ angled down slightly to aid keying. Clean up the sides a bit, if you use 10mm bar drill 12 mm holes, get some chem fix (don't just whack a 10mm bar into a 10mm hole) and fix in some bars all round, leave 40mm cover on the concrete. When CF dry and substrate washed, shutter (various ways to put new material on) and PVA the substrate that your trying to bond to (don't put it in the mix) leave enough room for finishing, again PVA before trying to bond render.

There are choices here, you can fix on some EML (but thats prob best for the render if you thicken it up and fix to get a lock on the new section of wall) and use a finer aggregate size if you want but i'd go for bar, you can try just bonding to whats there but keying provides more mechanical lock etc etc! Depends on tools etc that you have but either which way your looking at a cheap repair that has a very good chance of lasting a very long time verses a 100% certainty of a very big bill. There's no way my thoughts would be to rip it all out! For the look of it the renders just carpet, you make it look nice after.

Dean


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## Paul.J (19 Sep 2013)

Thanks both.
You both have PMs.

Xmas lights sounds good Doug :ho2


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## DMF (19 Sep 2013)

No problem, PM replied to and you have my email as well if you need it, good luck  

Dean


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## powertools (19 Sep 2013)

Without a picture from further back to include more detail and more information about the work your neighbour carried out I am amazed at some of the advice you have been given.


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## DMF (19 Sep 2013)

powertools":24vm5cxb said:


> Without a picture from further back to include more detail and more information about the work your neighbour carried out I am amazed at some of the advice you have been given.




Well help the man out then, he hasn't done it yet! One of the strengths of this forum is that you get lots of opinions and advice, all of which makes you think, i hope you would tell me if i had a thread and there's something you thought i hadn't been made aware of  

Dean


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## Paul.J (20 Sep 2013)

powertools":w0j1mljg said:


> Without a picture from further back to include more detail and more information about the work your neighbour carried out I am amazed at some of the advice you have been given.


Is it the Xmas lights idea your not keen on :lol: 

As far as i know all the work the builder done down by the wall was to lay some new slabs.
As i say i am not blaming the builder but would have thought he'd have told me about the wall and might have even got him to have repaired it while the property was empty.


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## powertools (20 Sep 2013)

It is impossible for any one to advise you without knowing how thick the wall is and how the fence is fixed to it.
There should have been no work carried out involving a digger within several feet of that wall without a party wall agreement being in place without that you are now faced with the problem of trying to repair or replace your wall working off your neighbours new slabs this is likely to be impossible without causing damage.
Even if your wall is still strong enough to support your garden from your neighbors side it is unsightly and it is in their interests as well as yours that something is done and you now need to agree with them the best course of action to avoid more problems as work starts.


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## Paul.J (20 Sep 2013)

I have decided to get some quotes in and take it from there,if anyone turns up.
Once again as far as i know the digger wasn't near that part of the wall as it is by the side passage to next doors,the houses,semis, are stepped back.the width of the passage is about 30".
The wall belongs to us as it is all on our land so not sure if that makes it a party wall??
Yes the work will have to done working from the neighbours on the new slabs.
The property is rented so who would i have to see to do the work,the the tenants or the owner,who is the builder as far as i know?


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## powertools (20 Sep 2013)

Your neighbour does not need to share ownership of the wall for it to come under the scope of the party wall act. The act is in place to protect property owners from the expense caused by the actions of their neighbours.
You need to discuss the situation with the property owner not the tenant..


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