# Pocket hole screws



## Knot Competent (12 May 2015)

I was going through a Screwfix catalogue yesterday, and I wondered if any of their wide selection of screws were suitable for pocket hole joints. I've not bought a jig yet, but it's only a matter of time, and I'm aware the "official" screws are expensive. I'm sure someone on here has tried cheaper alternatives, so perhaps you'd share your experiences?


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## Bluekingfisher (12 May 2015)

The screws are expensive on their own, no doubt about that

If you can hold out until November before buying a jig then make your way to the North of England WW show.

A pal and I both bought the new Kreg K5 jig for £89 at last years show. With that came a box of 5000 (yes 5000 screws) but being tight wads we managed to wangle another 2000 screws out of him as well. I also had a large discount on the large Kreg bench clamp, so well worth the trip if you are in striking distance. 

The chap on the stand was Andy King, as seen in woodworking mags from time to time.

Just a thought.

Good luck David


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## Knot Competent (12 May 2015)

Thanks for that, David. That wouldn't be economic for me, from Somerset. My question remains, is there anything in the Screwfix catalogue (or Toolstation, or anyone!) which would be a good substitute for the official pocket hole screws?

I'm planning on getting my jig from Rutlands, they have a similar one in their catalogue http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp++DKPHG marked down from £70 to £40, but out of stock at the moment.


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## RogerM (12 May 2015)

The problem with conventional countersunk screws is that you would be screwing them down into a flat bottomed recess so that the countersunk head will have a tendency to split the timber, particularly on end grain, which is often the case with pocket hole applications. That's why the custom pocket hole screws have flat heads so that they bear on the flat surface. Once you know the size you will be using most it's worth while buying in bulk to keep down the unit cost.


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## dc_ni (12 May 2015)

Don't have a pocket hole jig myself, but I wonder if something like these roundhead screws would work:

http://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-na...t840066#category=cat840066&headtype=roundhead

I do remember someone posting a link to a seller on ebay that was really good, so another option would be to keep an eye on there for them.


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## Eric The Viking (12 May 2015)

We had several discussions about this (and choice of pocket-hole systems) recently. 
Use the search function - it's there to be useful!

Meanwhile, in short:

1. There are a lot of factors that have all to be right to get good results with PH systems. Cheap kits are usually knock-offs, where the manufacturer only has a vague idea of what's needed. If you buy cheap+nasty don't expect to be pleased with the product - the joints will probably be weak and difficult to make.*

2. Use a proper PH drill, as the hole needs square shoulders.

3. You can use any screw with a head that has a back that's flat and square to the thread, and which is designed to not need a pilot hole. Countersink screws are right out**.

4. Type of actual thread: horses for courses. Kreg offers a variety, as their hardwood ones have a tighter thread pitch than the ones for softwood. I think it makes a difference.

5. Screw head types: given (4) above, you can use just about anything, BUT you want a screw that stays on the driver, and where the driver can't easily cam-out, and ideally where you don't need a lot of force along the screwdriver shaft. That rules out most cheap screws. Kreg sell Robertson (square-socketed head), and Axminster sell Torx for the purpose, for these reasons.

6. The stock has to be properly square, properly butted-up together, and really tightly clamped when you assemble the joint.

7. Use an electric screwdriver with a slipping clutch (so you don't over-drive the screws) and practice on the same type of wood to get the right max torque setting.

Personally I recommend you save up for a decent kit. I have Kreg, but the UJK system from Axminster looks really good and is well made. Axminster sell the right screws mail-order.

E.

PS: The length of the screw depends on the stock you're joining mainly. There isn't a "standard" size. The Kreg kits explain a bit about this in the instructions.

PPS: I don't like Rutlands jig for a number of reasons. It seems to be the same as the really cheap+nasty ones from Toolstatin _et al_, only with a baseplate and clamp added (i.e. still cheap and nasty only with a higher price). Have a look at Axminster's UJK one - I've had a good look at it in the showroom and it's got all the right settings and adjustments and seems well made. 

*Steve Maskery will at this point say you don't need a factory made jig. Others will say they get on just fine with 50p jig fom Lidl. I've seen some of Steve's pocket hole stuff close up, and it looks brilliant. But I'm not Steve: I need a good jig!

**Book of Armaments, Ch7 v.6. (paraphrased)


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## Eric The Viking (12 May 2015)

Another PS:

Appleby Woodturnings sell Kreg pocket-hole stuff, including a range of screws, clamps, kits, etc.

If/when you buy, I recommend the long Roberson-head screwdriver bits that Kreg OEM (the body of the drill needs to clear the workpiece, and a normal length bit won't achieve this, even tho it reaches into the actual hole far enough), and the Kreg PH Drills: I have two and both came literally razor sharp. The tiny pilot-hole part in the centre is fragile - people say they break, but I've not had a problem so far. 

I haven't done a price comparison, but I have bought planer knives from Appleby in the past and their service has been excellent. The owner is a member on here and occasionally posts, too.

E.


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## RogerM (12 May 2015)

Eric The Viking":12rao3a3 said:


> Another PS:
> 
> Appleby Woodturnings sell Kreg pocket-hole stuff, including a range of screws, clamps, kits, etc.



+1. I've had some 10" planer blades from them and they were great, and well priced. Didn't realise that they also did Kreg stuff.


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## Fergal (12 May 2015)

I'll echo all of Erik's points above.

I have the UJK jig from Axminster which is a nice bit of kit, and the screws are quite expensive, but they do work well. I don't know how they compare in price to the Kreg screws, but having the Torx head is a big plus in my book. 

I have tried using regular pan head screws (self-tapping and wood) from Screwfix instead of the proper ones, but they just don't work as well. The phillips head screws cam-out and the thread pitch is a bit too fine for softwoods and sheet materials. I have heard of people using plasterboard screws with washers on them, but that sounds like a bit too much faffing about for me.

Fergal


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## John Brown (12 May 2015)

I have the Rutlands jig, and I haven't found anything cheap and nasty about it. I struggle to see how it's that different from the Kreg.


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## Eric The Viking (13 May 2015)

For a start, it doesn't alter the hole position for different thicknesses of stock. In the Kreg this is a height adjustment of the drilling guides, and a corresponding adjustment of the drill depth stop. It's calibrated to make these adjustments fast and accurate.

Then there is dust extraction - in dense ply, for example, or thick hardwoods, it's a good idea. Not all Kreg kits have this, but mine does, and it is very good with the shop vac connected in. Without DX, there is a lot of mess and the drill overheats, even though the DX slot at the back is still there to allow chips to escape. I am happy to be corrected, but I don't think the Rutlands one has any DX provision at all.

Finally, there are three spacings (for pairs of holes) built into the Kreg. The jig is one solid block and there is no slack to cause skewed holes. The UJK one has a similar adjustable spacing arrangement to the Rutlands one. It is well built, and has adjustments for stock thickness, but I still prefer fixed spacing as it keeps everything parallel and consistent.

In short, the Kreg system is really well thought out, in the details, even down to the recommended Robertson screws. I think the UJK one comes close but I would still choose the Kreg again, as, frankly, its better.

E.

PS: Robertson screws don't fall off the screwdriver nor chew up easily. Torx are good for this, and I use them as much as I can, but Robertson ones are the absolute dog's pyjamas. They're ideal for this job because you're often trying to get a screw into an awkward place and you don't want any chance of it slipping on the driver.


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## Wizard9999 (13 May 2015)

Eric The Viking":31ic0yft said:


> Another PS:
> 
> Appleby Woodturnings sell Kreg pocket-hole stuff, including a range of screws, clamps, kits, etc.



Can somebody explain why anyone would pay £124 for a boxed set of 675 assorted pocket hole scews, when you can buy 500 screws of one size for about £11 - 13? That means the cost of the box must be well over £100, now I'm sure it's a nice box and all that, but that makes no sense to me.

Sure I must be missing something key, can somebody put me out of my misery and point out what it is?

Terry.


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## Eric The Viking (13 May 2015)

Nor to me :-(


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## John Brown (13 May 2015)

Just went and took a look at my Rutlands kit. It does have adjustment for stock thickness, 1/2" to 1 1/2" in 1/4" steps (Americans!)
The spacing/horizontal adjustment is however, continuous, although I can't say that's ever been a problem for me.
No dust extraction, as you point out, but there are channels for the dust to escape from the drill guides, at least.
Also comes with Robertson screws and drivers.

So while it might not be the Rolls Royce of pocket hole screw kits, I wouldn't call it cheap and nasty.
The problem I always found with pocket hole joinery was a tendency for the undrilled piece to drift slightly, because of the angled screw. Maybe operator error...


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## Ed Bray (13 May 2015)

Wizard9999":3c4nfyv0 said:


> Eric The Viking":3c4nfyv0 said:
> 
> 
> > Another PS:
> ...



Same set here for £24.78 and others around that price too from different sellers.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kreg-Pocket-H ... 2c64ea62bf


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## Eric The Viking (13 May 2015)

How do you adjust for thickness? The Rutlands web site says it "accommodates" a range of thickneses, and the clamp is adjustable, obviously, ut I can't see any mechanism for altering the height of the guides (so they enter the wood in a different place). Without that the joint won't be pulled together in the centre.

I did look, but there is only one picture on the Rutlands site. It doesn't show it in use and it isn't very informative.

They get marks for Robertson screws though


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## John Brown (13 May 2015)

There is a choice of 5 square notches on the drill guides which engage with a square lip at the top of the vertical back plate.

I attach some pictures which should make it clear.

John


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## Eric The Viking (13 May 2015)

That's a substantially different unit to the one in the photo on Rutland's site!

It looks like a complete redesign. I can guess why. Here's the image on Ruland's site:




As it stands, yours is substantially better thought out.

E.


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## John Brown (13 May 2015)

I take it all back - they've obviously cheapened and nastied it up since I bought mine.

Here's a better view of the whole jig, apparently on the Rutlands site...

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/pu+joint-maki ... grp=c03000

With no adjustment for stock thickness, I suppose the holes always exit at the same distance from one edge, rather than in the middle. Sounds bad, but maybe it doesn't matter that much. Anyway, I'm glad I had the foresight to buy mine way back then, before they changed it!


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## Eric The Viking (13 May 2015)

I'm not sure which came first - perhaps the one you have is the new, improved one, in which case it's not bad!

I've found from bitter experience that it does matter whether the screw crosses the centre line at the joint (which I suppose it is supposed to, if you see what I mean). I've had no problems with good quality ply, but I thought I'd knock up a quick frame/template for cutting out for socket boxes a week or two ago. Found some scrap roofing batten in the oddments box but forgot to set the thickness (I think) - it went all squiffy when I tried to screw it together, which was most annoying (me being in a hurry 'n'all).


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## porker (13 May 2015)

I have the Rutland jig which I bought about 12-18 months ago for about £30. I guess it was worth that but not more. It is not particularly well finished and I squared up the base on my mill as it looked like it had been hacksawed by hand.

Mine looks like the one in the picture Eric posted. It works fine in 18mm ply and MDF but can blow the side of 12mm material out as the screw is towards the outside edge of the material.


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