# reduce energy on standby



## fred55 (5 May 2022)

Just thought Id share my latest addiction - reduce energy usage. Concerned about my constant electric usage with things on standby so I've bought a clampmeter (£12) which will register current through a cable amongst other things - it clamps onto the live cable so I made an extension lead where the live is accessible for clamping around. I can now plug in the extension to feed an appliance to test the standby usage. Using the old formula V x A = power (W). Surprise and shocked how much is used by my standby equipment - microwaves ( x 2 ) garage door remotes ( x 4 ) TVs ( x 3 ), sky box, wireless router, yes I'm tight, but most of these things don't get used every day, they still use energy !! Conclusion Unplug or switch off.


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## Sandyn (5 May 2022)

Have a look here as well, some interesting stuff


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## Sideways (5 May 2022)

I've just installed solar panels and some Myenergi smart controls.
The system includes current transformers (equivalent to your clamp meter) on the 2 solar inverters to see what is being produced, and on the meter tails to see what is coming in from the grid or being exported to it.

These show that the house is using about 200W all the time. (cooker and microwave clocks, fridge, TV, desktop PC, routers, phone chargers etc etc).

Now these sensors aren't designed to measure small currents with high precision, but even if the number is only 100W, that's 2.4kW / day, 876kW / yr and £185 / year. It does make sense to investigate which devices are the worst offenders.


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## Spectric (5 May 2022)

fred55 said:


> Using the old formula V x A = power (W).


That holds true in Ac circuits providing both current and voltage are RMS values. Multiply this by Sin Theta to get real power and by Cos Theta to get reactive or imaginary power which you may or may not be charged for.

Reactive power was really only of concern to large industries with machinery and lots of motors where there was a high percentage of inductance, but now it seems households are seeing more reactive power though capacitive loads as in switching power supplies and modern technology.

When looking at energy suppliers it is important to bear in mind their daily standing charge, so if you turned off both your gas and electricity you will still get a bill. High energy users can accept slightly higher standing charges for cheaper unit rates wheras low energy uses may accept the slightly higher unit rates for lower standing charges.


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## fred55 (5 May 2022)

Thanks Sideways my house was constantly drawing 650 W which is why I needed to check - and solar panels is my next project - how many! what storage ! maybe a link off for electric car ! excess to a hot waster tank ! ooow my brain starting to hurt. !! any recommendations for good company.


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## deema (5 May 2022)

@Sideways is always very thorough in researching things very methodically, I’m hoping he will do a thread on his experience. I’m very impressed with how much power he’s generating on dull days.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 May 2022)

methodically?


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## deema (5 May 2022)

@Phil Pascoe don’t mock the afflicted with a comprehensive education. You should feel sorry for the poor sole whose teachers thought getting the ideas down was more important than spelling or punctuation.
It’s been an acute source of embarrassment all my life, but I get by. I actually appreciate my billy do’s being highlighted, only way to try and improve…..I’ve edited it so nobody else will know how bad it was
Apple predictive text doesn’t help….I often can’t see the difference between what I wanted to put and what it’s inserted.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 May 2022)

Sorry. It did make it read rather oddly, though.


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## deema (5 May 2022)

@Phil Pascoe Don’t be sorry, once you’d highlighted it, it made me smile at me being a numpty


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## Spectric (5 May 2022)

You need to differentiate between the academic and the skilled, two examples are 1) A guy with good degree in electronic's but could not solder or build prototype circuits to save his life and another person I worked with who was not very academic and very down to earth but who could produce some incredable work on his old lathe and mill. 

This is the big problem we have today, education wants everyone to have a degree even if it is in drama or flower arranging but we really need the technical colleges to deliver hands on skills, all we have now is a skills shortage and many degrees not worth the paper they are written on.


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## guineafowl21 (5 May 2022)

Further to Spectric’s point, I quickly rigged up this setup:





This is a simple 230V to 12V transformer left unconnected on the output. The meter is measuring 0.054A. Given a voltage of 245.2, we would expect: 245.2 x 0.054 = 13.2W of power usage.





However, the power meter only measures 4.3W, a third of the expected value. This is what is charged for by a domestic meter.

The reason is to do with power factor, which is a big subject, but involves a certain amount of power bouncing back and forth between source and load, which is not charged for in domestic properties.

In a nutshell, by doing P=VI you are measuring apparent power, units VA, and not real power, units W. You will be significantly overestimating electricity costs.


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## guineafowl21 (5 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> That holds true in Ac circuits providing both current and voltage are RMS values. Multiply this by Sin Theta to get real power and by Cos Theta to get reactive or imaginary power which you may or may not be charged for.


Not that it matters too much to the OP, but I believe it’s the other way around:
Real power is VA.cos(theta)
Imaginary is VA.sin(theta)


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## deema (5 May 2022)

This takes me back to my degree in electrical and electronic engineering….yep I have one of those

Imaginary power is usually referred to as reactive power. For inductive loads such as motors and transformers, the induced phase change is in one direction, and for capacitors it’s in the opposite direction. To minimise power usage you want the phase change to be to be zero, or the power factor to be 1. However, this is normally only the case with resistive loads, and for commercial consumption more often than not banks of capacitors are added into the system to ‘pull’ the phase change back towards zero to give you a power factor (PF) of as close to 1 as possible. There is requirement on industry by the generators to keep loads within a certain PF band, which is why capacitors are often mandatory. Now I could be terribly mistaken, but I understood that all meters read VA, or as it’s known apparent power. 

This is a nice summary without too much technical mumbo jumbo for anyone interested. 



https://www.dranetz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/introduction-electricalpower-for-nonpower-professional.pdf


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## guineafowl21 (5 May 2022)

Most domestic meters measure only in real power kWh (not kVAh or kVARh) and charge as such, eg this one:


https://www.jwsmartmeters.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ECA2-Basic-Credit-Meter.pdf



This three phase one from the same manufacturer measures kWh and kVARh, for industrial/commercial places:








EMP1.ax DC-MID Three Phase Digital Smart Meter (GSM Output)


EMP1.ax is targeted at deregulated energy markets & enables provision of an AMR service. Intended for Commercial/Industrial use and CoP5 applications.




www.jwsmartmeters.co.uk


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## Sideways (5 May 2022)

I also believe that electricity meters - which will all be subject to a British Standard - measure real power, not apparent.
The imaginary or reactive component is only of concern to the electricity company who have to provide for the component that flows in and out but which is not consumed nor paid for.
For this reason - in a commercial setting - the power factor is subject to monitoring and the electricity company can (and do) charge a substantial premium if the power factor moves too far away from 1.0
I once followed a visiting inspector around an overseas factory as he made his monthly tour of the plant's meters noting both the readings and the PF (power factor) for this purpose. If I recall correctly, a PF below 0.9 was the trigger for the surcharge.
Here's a brief mention of the subject on the IET forums. A great source of reliable info on questions like this.





IET EngX







www2.theiet.org


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## Sideways (5 May 2022)

In practice, domestic installations have very little reactive power. The main non resistive loads (in terms of power consumption) are electric motors and fluorescent lights (because of the ballasts) so would have little to worry about even if they did have to pay for it.


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## guineafowl21 (5 May 2022)

Sideways said:


> In practice, domestic installations have very little reactive power. The main non resistive loads (in terms of power consumption) are electric motors and fluorescent lights (because of the ballasts) so would have little to worry about even if they did have to pay for it.


Certainly true, and why domestic suppliers don’t (yet) bother charging for it. But for devices on standby, as per the OP, it will have significance for the way he’s measuring power. Standby often involves a switching supply running at a very low level, taking little gulps of current at the peaks in a very non-sinusoidal fashion.

Take the example of my Panasonic microwave, at idle, from the other thread:
83.55 VA at 88.77deg
83.53 VAR
1.8 W

If I measured current, and multiplied by voltage as the OP is doing, I would think my microwave is using 83.55’W’ at idle. That is way off from the 1.8W that is being charged for, and arguably not worth bothering with.


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## Richard_C (5 May 2022)

This is all really useful, but talk of clamp meters, extensions and guineafowls set up, I wonder how long it will be before a tabloid runs with the headline "homeowner electrocuted trying to save power consumption". (Do the suppliers charge you for the jolt that gets you or is that one free?)

We do need to think of these things though: a smart meter (not got one) will tell you what is being used but not what is using it. Iterative switching on and off is needed I suppose but even then I wonder if it will 'see' the impact of low current items. Its hard to work out the effect of lots of things. I know what the power of my oven is, but if the oven is on for 2 hours the thermostat will be cutting in and out so I can't simply say 2 x whatever KwH and some is used to drive the fan which runs all the time. Same with hob and with most appliances.

Next time I do a roast should I sit there and time the red light on/off durations? Wouldn't change anything, would still cook but at least I would know. It could get to be an obsession ......


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## Ozi (5 May 2022)

Sideways said:


> I've just installed solar panels and some Myenergi smart controls.
> The system includes current transformers (equivalent to your clamp meter) on the 2 solar inverters to see what is being produced, and on the meter tails to see what is coming in from the grid or being exported to it.
> 
> These show that the house is using about 200W all the time. (cooker and microwave clocks, fridge, TV, desktop PC, routers, phone chargers etc etc).
> ...


My worst offenders are children. Minimum draw downstairs 34W min upstairs 240W which includes my clock radio and all their standby. If I look at my smart meter I can tell who is awake in the house, oldest sons room often drawing 1.5 kW. 

Never again will they make the mistake of telling me they can't get jobs because of all the old people like me hogging them.


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## Sideways (5 May 2022)

Richard_C said:


> Next time I do a roast should I sit there and time the red light on/off durations? Wouldn't change anything, would still cook but at least I would know. It could get to be an obsession ......


Don't bother. I watched the app when I turned on the roast today. A few minutes of 3.6kW as the oven ramped to 200C, then it just flipped back and forth between 2.2 ish and 0.5kW as it cooked using the fan. After the first 10 mins of full power I'd say it averaged about 1.5kW

I did a silly intellectual exercise the other day thinking about energy storage. Imagine using Potential Energy as a form of storage. I don't have a lake to use for pumped storage and my garden's small, so how about using surplus energy to raise a heavy weight and then let it down to turn a generator and get back the power when you need it.
Ok. What if we could use the whole house as a mass. I guessed 100 tons and let's raise it 1 metre.
Energy = force x distance
= 100 tonnes x 1000Kg/tonne x 10Newtons/Kg x 1 metre
= 1,000,000 Newton metres
(1 Newton metre = 1 Joule of energy)
Now a quick lookup tells us 1kW hour = 3.6 million Joules of energy
So assuming no losses and a perfect mechanism to do this silly experiment, I would be able to crank my entire house a metre into the air in just 17 minutes using only a 1kW motor for an energy cost of less than 6p.
Wow !
It demonstrates that one kWh is a big unit of energy


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## guineafowl21 (5 May 2022)

Sideways said:


> It demonstrates that one kWh is a big unit of energy


In terms of physics, electricity is amazingly cheap  

Think how knackered you’d be (and how much time you’d spend), ripping, crosscutting and planing all the wood for your next project, when a few machines can do it so quickly, and for pennies.

There are those who do it by hand, and I admire them, but from afar...


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## Spectric (5 May 2022)

This reminds me of a windup, we convinced someone that when there is no wind, some windfarms can use some of the turbines to generate wind so others can produce power, but we also convinced him that postman can deliver emails if you have the right connector next to your letter box!


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## Sandyn (5 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> This reminds me of a windup, we convinced someone that when there is no wind, some windfarms can use some of the turbines to generate wind so others can produce power


And did you know that in summer when power usage is lower, they use the surplus to drive the turbines like huge fans to keep us cool!


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## John Brown (5 May 2022)

Richard_C said:


> This is all really useful, but talk of clamp meters, extensions and guineafowls set up, I wonder how long it will be before a tabloid runs with the headline "homeowner electrocuted trying to save power consumption". (Do the suppliers charge you for the jolt that gets you or is that one free?)
> 
> We do need to think of these things though: a smart meter (not got one) will tell you what is being used but not what is using it. Iterative switching on and off is needed I suppose but even then I wonder if it will 'see' the impact of low current items. Its hard to work out the effect of lots of things. I know what the power of my oven is, but if the oven is on for 2 hours the thermostat will be cutting in and out so I can't simply say 2 x whatever KwH and some is used to drive the fan which runs all the time. Same with hob and with most appliances.
> 
> Next time I do a roast should I sit there and time the red light on/off durations? Wouldn't change anything, would still cook but at least I would know. It could get to be an obsession ......


Actually, some electricity suppliers do tell you what is using the power, according to something I read a while back. Most devices have a distinctive power signature. Kettle? 3kW for 2 minutes. Fridge? 90 watts for 15 minutes, off for 30 minutes. Tumble dryer? 3kW for 80 minutes. After all, people have been power profiling microprocessors for years to steal code, guessing appliance usage is probably easy by comparison.

Having said that, Octopus, our electricity supplier, don't offer that level of analysis, as far as I know.


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## mikej460 (5 May 2022)

Does anybody else have a headache


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## woodieallen (5 May 2022)

Richard_C said:


> This is all really useful, but talk of clamp meters, extensions and guineafowls set up, I wonder how long it will be before a tabloid runs with the headline "homeowner electrocuted trying to save power consumption". (Do the suppliers charge you for the jolt that gets you or is that one free?)
> 
> We do need to think of these things though: a smart meter (not got one) will tell you what is being used but not what is using it. Iterative switching on and off is needed I suppose but even then I wonder if it will 'see' the impact of low current items. Its hard to work out the effect of lots of things. I know what the power of my oven is, but if the oven is on for 2 hours the thermostat will be cutting in and out so I can't simply say 2 x whatever KwH and some is used to drive the fan which runs all the time. Same with hob and with most appliances.
> 
> Next time I do a roast should I sit there and time the red light on/off durations? Wouldn't change anything, would still cook but at least I would know. It could get to be an obsession ......


Why not treat yourself to an Emporia system ? I've got one and it's brilliant. Emporia: Smarter Home Energy Management


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## John Brown (5 May 2022)

mikej460 said:


> Does anybody else have a headache


Did you confuse this thread with the joke thread?


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## Scruples (6 May 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> methodically?


methodically - in an orderly or systematic manner. 
Hope that helps.


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## NewbieRaf (6 May 2022)

@woodieallen can you tell us a bit more about your emporia system? As it’s something that I’ve been looking at.


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## MorrisWoodman12 (6 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> This reminds me of a windup, we convinced someone that when there is no wind, some windfarms can use some of the turbines to generate wind so others can produce power, but we also convinced him that postman can deliver emails if you have the right connector next to your letter box!


Ah! At last I've found Joke thread III.


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## HamsterJam (6 May 2022)

We have been using an OWL energy monitor for years (way before smart meters were on the scene) and also a small plug in device that is easier to use than a clamp ammeter.
Link to OWL…





Energy Monitors | OWL +USB | The OWL


The OWL+USB is a cost-effective energy monitor providing accurate electricity usage analysis with easy-to-read energy monitoring statistics.



www.theowl.com




Link to similar energy monitor…








Energenie ENER007 Energy Saving Power Meter Socket


Order online at Screwfix.com. Monitor and measure the energy use and costs of running household appliances. Simply plug into a powered mains socket and then plug any 13A rated appliance in. Discover which appliances use most energy, helping you lower power bills and reduce emissions. FREE next...



www.screwfix.com




This combination is great for finding where all that energy goes.


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## Spectric (6 May 2022)

Anyone thought of producing there own electricity using steam which could also heat the house, all you need is a small boiler, maybe use pellets and then no more gas and sell your excess electric back to the DNO to offset any bills. It is times like these that sporn invention and inovation.


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## Sachakins (6 May 2022)

Save all your hunting, it's your fridge and freezer accounting for 90% of your standby power, but that's not really standby, so exclude it from the costs and stand by probably only £35 per year.


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## Spectric (6 May 2022)

To save energy you want your freezer in an unheated outbuilding, it will then not have to work as hard.


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## sploo (6 May 2022)

Sideways said:


> I did a silly intellectual exercise the other day thinking about energy storage. Imagine using Potential Energy as a form of storage. I don't have a lake to use for pumped storage and my garden's small, so how about using surplus energy to raise a heavy weight and then let it down to turn a generator and get back the power when you need it.


The JET "Joint European Torus" fusion facility at Culham in Oxfordshire has (or at least the last time I was there, had), a large wheel that they would spin up as an energy store for when they needed to start the fusion Tokamak reactor. The wheel is so large/massive that (according to a guy I spoke to) if it broke free of its mounts at full speed it'd still be going when it reached Newbury (20 miles to the south).


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## mikej460 (6 May 2022)

John Brown said:


> Did you confuse this thread with the joke thread?


Either that or the most spectacular electrical engineering crammer I've seen for years...


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## guineafowl21 (6 May 2022)

mikej460 said:


> Either that or the most spectacular electrical engineering crammer I've seen for years...


@Spectric started it...


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## Spectric (6 May 2022)

If you want to get a better / deeper grasp of Ac electrical theory then you need the book "AC CIRCUIT ANALYSIS" by Noble Lockhart & Ora Rice. It is very good even though published in the seventies and some chapters are outdated it got me through college. The theory remains the same, J notation and network theorems have not changed and Kirchoffs loop equations can be invaluable. Back this reading up with "Electrical fundamentals" by Robert Shrader and you get more info on AC circuits as well as an intro to magnetics, a subject that is really interesting and fundamental to modern industry and technology. If you like simplicity then avoid Ac and just stick with Dc!


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## nickds1 (6 May 2022)

NewbieRaf said:


> @woodieallen can you tell us a bit more about your emporia system? As it’s something that I’ve been looking at.


I have just installed one of these, mainly for our three phase utility feed... As an electronics engineer and software designer, the system architecture appealed. It's a good system, but is USA-centric at the moment and is faily new to the UK market. This means that several European norms are not currently catered for, including split charging bands (economy 7 etc.) and "groups" where you can collect a number of circuits together and total them. e.g. in our case we have a 3-phase ground source heat pump and the current Emporia Vue2 software can only treat each phase separately.

However, I've found their tech support to be really good and responsive and they are committed to the UK market, so most of the above contingencies will be addressed in software releases later this year.

see my post in The cost of a microwave on standby - we have 3-phase, 100A to the property which is then split various ways - I just wanted to know exactly what was using what watts...

I ordered the special "wide mouth" (10mm) 50A CTs so that they'd fit round all the meter tails - the three 200A CTs for the 3-phase were the standard ones.


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## Spectric (6 May 2022)

nickds1 said:


> which is then split various ways


I can see you must have a large heat pump to require three phase, is it a 22Kw one? To me it seems we are looking for the holy grail, wanting to extract more energy from a system than is put in which seems to defy physics, many may work in ideal laboratory situations but you here so many people who don't get back what they expect all year round. Be interesting to see your figures when the system is fully instrumented and see how close to three times more output than input you can get.


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## nickds1 (6 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> I can see you must have a large heat pump to require three phase, is it a 22Kw one? To me it seems we are looking for the holy grail, wanting to extract more energy from a system than is put in which seems to defy physics, many may work in ideal laboratory situations but you here so many people who don't get back what they expect all year round. Be interesting to see your figures when the system is fully instrumented and see how close to three times more output than input you can get.


It doesn't REQUIRE 3-phase, we just happened to have it and 3-phase GS heat pumps are just that little bit more efficient that single phase, so incremental gains. It all counts.

We recently had a full service and firmware upgrade etc. The actual CoP was measured at that time (needs a fair bit of kit) and back in March when it was cold, we had a CoP of 3.9. Obviously that varies with environmental conditions.


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## John Brown (6 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> If you want to get a better / deeper grasp of Ac electrical theory then you need the book "AC CIRCUIT ANALYSIS" by Noble Lockhart & Ora Rice. It is very good even though published in the seventies and some chapters are outdated it got me through college. The theory remains the same, J notation and network theorems have not changed and Kirchoffs loop equations can be invaluable. Back this reading up with "Electrical fundamentals" by Robert Shrader and you get more info on AC circuits as well as an intro to magnetics, a subject that is really interesting and fundamental to modern industry and technology. If you like simplicity then avoid Ac and just stick with Dc!


I'll stick with my vintage copy of "The boy electrician" by Alfred Powell Morgan. It's served me well these past 60 years.


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## Spectric (6 May 2022)

That is the sort of book that got many boys into engineering, got them interested in physics and just something that gets the mind thinking and curiousity into overdrive.



https://www.tayloredge.com/museum/museum/TheBoyElectrician.pdf


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## fred55 (6 May 2022)

My head really hurts now - having flash back from too many years ago - multi cage electric motors; 3phase; single phase; root;3 V I cos Q; Kva n Kvar ; power factor correction; Flemings LH rule for motors (or was it RH); flux density F=ILB; step up n step down; Eddy currents; not forgetting fault/breakers calcs from home to power station; good old pit tech ! that's blown some cobwebs off time for a beer.


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## ian33a (7 May 2022)

fred55 said:


> My head really hurts now - having flash back from too many years ago - multi cage electric motors; 3phase; single phase; root;3 V I cos Q; Kva n Kvar ; power factor correction; Flemings LH rule for motors (or was it RH); flux density F=ILB; step up n step down; Eddy currents; not forgetting fault/breakers calcs from home to power station; good old pit tech ! that's blown some cobwebs off time for a beer.



Same for me. Did all of that stuff during my degree and a load more too. Then I went off and spent most of my life in high speed electronic test. Fast fourier transforms, ua, uv, ns, effective bits and a host of other terms filled my brain instead. I struggle to remember much of the above as my little brain would explode trying to retain all of it.


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## NewbieRaf (7 May 2022)

@nickds1 thank you for that. Re the emporia system, what if your like me just not comfortable dealing with sparky stuff aside from wiring a uk plug, can you not just clamp select appliances or the flex from your meter? And that feeds wirelessly to their hub then to the cloud?

thanks


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## ian33a (7 May 2022)

NewbieRaf said:


> @nickds1 thank you for that. Re the emporia system, what if your like me just not comfortable dealing with sparky stuff aside from wiring a uk plug, can you not just clamp select appliances or the flex from your meter? And that feeds wirelessly to their hub then to the cloud?
> 
> thanks



I doubt you can connect to appliances around the wire from the mains socket to the appliance. Current clamps need to connect around a single wire, typically the live wire. If you connect around a normal electrical cable which contains a live, neutral and an earth, they don't work. They need to connect to the live tails near the distribution board.


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## nickds1 (7 May 2022)

NewbieRaf said:


> @nickds1 thank you for that. Re the emporia system, what if your like me just not comfortable dealing with sparky stuff aside from wiring a uk plug, can you not just clamp select appliances or the flex from your meter? And that feeds wirelessly to their hub then to the cloud?
> 
> thanks


Regrettably that won't work. The clamps (current transformers or CTs) measure current flowing in a single direction. If you clamp the mains lead to an appliance then you'll be measuring the current in the live wire minus the current in the neutral (as it's flowing in the opposite direction), so the net result should be zero.

The CTs really need to be in the consumer unit clamped on the live cables downstream from the breakers. Plus, the actual monitoring unit (the Vue2) needs to be connected directly to at least one of the breakers and the neutral bus in the CU to power itself and to monitor voltage. Emporia recommend getting a qualified electrician to do the work.

Note that this system originated in the USA where their domestic consumer units (CUs) are more like our light industrial ones, i.e. they have much more space inside than our CUs, so I really wouldn't do this yourself unless you are very happy (and safe) working inside a crowded CU.


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## woodieallen (7 May 2022)

NewbieRaf said:


> @woodieallen can you tell us a bit more about your emporia system? As it’s something that I’ve been looking at.


Sorry for the delay.

What specifically would you like to know ?


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## woodieallen (7 May 2022)

nickds1 said:


> ......working inside a crowded CU.




The Emporias system comes with two sizes of clamp. A very large one meant to go over the main tails feeding the consumer unit. As Nick has already said, our consumer units are very tight for space. However, all is not lost.

You get a load of smaller ones and these are much easier to squeeze in. If you have a 'normal' house supply ...ie not 3-phase, solar generation etc then do what I do. I clamp two small ones over the feeds from the two RCDs (split load) and Emporia does the maths for me and adds the two together.


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## nickds1 (7 May 2022)

woodieallen said:


> The Emporias system comes with two sizes of clamp. A very large one meant to go over the main tails feeding the consumer unit. As


Actually there are at least three sizes. A large 200A one for your utility feed, a standard 50A one for the circuits to be monitored, and a larger "wide mouthed" 50A one if you want to monitor tails in a meter cupboard (which I do).

So I'm using all three types - the Vue2 has a maximum of 16 x 50A circuits it'll monitor simultaneously on top of your single or three phase utility supply. I have 3 X 200A CTs for the utility, 6 of the wide mouthed 50A CTs monitoring how the three phase is split out, leaving me 10 free connections for monitoring my CU.

The 50A CTs have a 1mtr cable terminating in a standard 2.5mm mono jack. Emporia tell me that you can extend this to a maximum of 8mtrs/25ft with standard mono 2.5mm extension cables, so I have run a few of these through the wall of my meter cupboard to the CU.


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## woodieallen (7 May 2022)

You have a very complex system. Do you not think that all these complex details might not put off some people from what can be used as a very simple but effective system ?


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## nickds1 (7 May 2022)

woodieallen said:


> You have a very complex system. Do you not think that all these complex details might not put off some people from what can be used as a very simple but effective system ?


No.

Everything I said about UK consumer units is valid - if you're not confident then get a qualified professional to do the work.

If you do know a bit, then you'll see that what I've done is actually nothing very complex or special - a bit left-field, but no more than that.


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## woodieallen (7 May 2022)

Right. No need to be so patronising and arrogant.

I'm out of this thread. If anyone wants further discussions regarding using the Emporia for Normal People then they are very welcome to PM me.


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## nickds1 (8 May 2022)

woodieallen said:


> Right. No need to be so patronising and arrogant.
> 
> I'm out of this thread. If anyone wants further discussions regarding using the Emporia for Normal People then they are very welcome to PM me.


I apologize if it came over that way - that certainly wasn't my intention. You asked me a direct question, which in itself could be taken various ways (if I was that thin skinned); I answered it. By "you" in my reply I'm not referring to you personally, but to anyone reading the post - a figure of speech, no more.

What I'm doing is certainly not complex and just highlights the flexibility of the system.

I do however feel that working in a UK domestic CU is not for folk who aren't confident in that. 

Further, as you will know, the Vue2 is designed really to be inside the CU with a punch-out for the aerial. - 7/8" - not a UK standard size.

If not installed that way you need a method to safely get the CT tails out of the CU preferably without having to leave the cover off.

If you do leave the cover off, then there are a bunch of H&S issues plus the fire rating of the CU is void.

Finally, if there is a subsequent insurance claim (fire, injury etc ), your domestic insurance could be invalidated.

I'm not intending to be "patronising or arrogant" - the Emporia Vue2 is great and can be used in lots of different configurations, some extremely simple and straightforward, but messing in domestic CUs is something to be done with caution. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should - there can be serious consequences.


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## Just4Fun (8 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> I can see you must have a large heat pump to require three phase, is it a 22Kw one? To me it seems we are looking for the holy grail, wanting to extract more energy from a system than is put in which seems to defy physics, many may work in ideal laboratory situations but you here so many people who don't get back what they expect all year round. Be interesting to see your figures when the system is fully instrumented and see how close to three times more output than input you can get.


We also have a phase supply for our (17 Kw) GSHP. The specifications claim:

 °C Kw 
In Out In Out COP
------------ ------------- ---
0 35 3.84 16.8 4.4
0 45 4.8 15.7 3.3
0 50 4.9 16.2 3.3

I have no way of knowing whether we achieve that in reality. Nor do I care. For most of the heating season our incoming brine temperature is below 0 degrees so that would throw the figures off, but even ignoring that the COP is not the measure I am interested in. Rather, the cost of running the systemis what I care about.
Before fitting the heat pump we heated the house with oil and used electricity for everything else. The heat pump replaced the oil burner and is purely used for heating the house. (Not for hot water, or anything else). For the first winter with the heat pump our electricity bill, for the GSHP, cooking, lighting hot water, everything, was about 15% lower than the oil had been just for space heating over the previous winter. Hence we saved money, which was the objective. We installed the GSHP in 2007 so I imagine the savings are greater now, given the way oil prices have changed.

Regards trying to get more energy out of the system than we put in, that is indeed the goal. The important thing is to get more out that _we_ put in; we cannot get more out than goes in in total. It is just that the energy we put into the system is not the only going into the system. The energy we put into the system is used to extract energy from the ground, and no laws of physics are challenged.


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## nickds1 (8 May 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> We also have a phase supply for our (17 Kw) GSHP. The specifications claim:
> 
> °C Kw
> In Out In Out COP
> ...


Exactly. The "First Law of Thermodynamics" is upheld - energy cannot be created or destroyed.

With a GSHP, the sun heats the ground. Electricity is used to drive the GSHP compressor and circulation pumps; the electrical energy input plus the thermal energy extracted from the ground equals the heat provided to the property (minus some losses in the system). A CoP of 1 means that for each Watt of electrical energy in you get 1 Watt of heat out - that's basically what an electric bar fire does.

With a GSHP, depending on environmental conditions, you typically get a CoP of between 3 in the winter and 4 in the summer. If the winter is very cold the CoP can drop below 3 and a modern well maintained GSHP can have a summer CoP of above 4. There are now cunning systems that can increase summer CoP to around 8 and in winter to around 5.5.


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## Spectric (8 May 2022)

What you need is artificial ground that has been engineered to absorb the most energy from the sun, next best would be to dye the grass black!


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## nickds1 (8 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> What you need is artificial ground that has been engineered to absorb the most energy from the sun, next best would be to dye the grass black!


Joking aside, there is now a a technique called "inter-seasonal heat transfer" (IHT) for use with GSHPs that warms up the ground even more during the summer so it can be released over winter and cools it over winter for use during the summer - because of the huge storage capacity of the ground, this can double CoP values. I really don't know a lot about this as it's pretty new and may not even be applicable to domestic use. Lots of info on the web about it though, e.g. IHT | Interseasonal Heat Transfer™ | Seasonal Heat Storage | GSHC | Renewable Heat & Renewable Cooling from ThermalBanks | Efficient Renewable Energy | Hybrid Renewable Energy Systems and Thermal Banks store solar heat between seasons | Seasonal Heat Storage | ThermalBanks save carbon emissions | Thermal Energy Storage using Interseasonal Heat Stores | Underground Thermal Energy Storage UTES | Reusable Heat


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## John Brown (8 May 2022)

I'm not doubting that, but it does sound too good to be true. Also, it "captures cold" at night??
What's cold?


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## Spectric (8 May 2022)

nickds1 said:


> There are now cunning systems that can increase summer CoP to around 8 and in winter to around 5.5.


Is that not the wrong way round, you want the better efficiency when the usage is higher, ie winter. Some people in Cumbria may be getting the ideal underfloor heating when the government gets round to burying all the radioactive waste, that will be good for at least ten generations providing you are willing to become sterile and bald.


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## Spectric (8 May 2022)

John Brown said:


> Also, it "captures cold" at night??


I would have thought that is the last thing you want to capture, surely if the ground is colder then it will transfer heat from your house to warm up the ground.


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## nickds1 (8 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Is that not the wrong way round, you want the better efficiency when the usage is higher, ie winter. Some people in Cumbria may be getting the ideal underfloor heating when the government gets round to burying all the radioactive waste, that will be good for at least ten generations providing you are willing to become sterile and bald.


I don't think so - in winter, the GSHP has to work much harder to get the required temperature rise to the property so lower CoP; in summer, the ground is already warmer so the GSHP has less work to do, so higher CoP.

The critical figure is the required "uplift" - the lower it is, the better the CoP.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Is that not the wrong way round, you want the better efficiency when the usage is higher, ie winter. Some people in Cumbria may be getting the ideal underfloor heating when the government gets round to burying all the radioactive waste, that will be good for at least ten generations providing you are willing to become sterile and bald.


Ah ................. that's what caused it .


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## fred55 (17 Jun 2022)

Well I've gone and done it 18 solar panels, controller and 2 x batteries on order - will keep this thread upto date on my view of : is it worth it or not !! yep after paying out my money i'll try to be non bias. - start with roof 41 degrees 30 southeast. most of my full sun will be early morning till 4ish. Please No Black Cats - ie; could have told you that; i'd have done it for nowt!; why dint you ask; last week I had one to give away; well that's what Black Cats do in Yorkshire.


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## Sideways (17 Jun 2022)

fred55 said:


> Well I've gone and done it 18 solar panels, controller and 2 x batteries on order - will keep this thread upto date on my view of : is it worth it or not !! yep after paying out my money i'll try to be non bias. - start with roof 41 degrees 30 southeast. most of my full sun will be early morning till 4ish. Please No Black Cats - ie; could have told you that; i'd have done it for nowt!; why dint you ask; last week I had one to give away; well that's what Black Cats do in Yorkshire.


Good man.
We have now 9kW peak (24 panels) on a similar SE facing roof. They have been running for 6 weeks now and in the month of May produced 850kWh of energy. That's about a quarter of our current annual electricity consumption if only we were able to store and use it all.
The battery is on a boat due later this year but meanwhile I've turned off the gas hot water heating as the solar will heat at least one and more often 3-4 tanks full of steaming hot water over a day.
MyEnergi Eddi is well worth looking into.
Having the generation biassed towards the start of the day is no bad thing. You can heat water, charge a car and battery, do chores in the morning then go out in the afternoon.

I'm sure payback will be nearer 20 years than 10, but the panels are guaranteed to degrade no faster than 0,25% a year over 40 years !


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## Scruples (18 Jun 2022)

Spectric said:


> That holds true in Ac circuits providing both current and voltage are RMS values. Multiply this by Sin Theta to get real power and by Cos Theta to get reactive or imaginary power which you may or may not be charged for.
> 
> Reactive power was really only of concern to large industries with machinery and lots of motors where there was a high percentage of inductance, but now it seems households are seeing more reactive power though capacitive loads as in switching power supplies and modern technology.
> 
> When looking at energy suppliers it is important to bear in mind their daily standing charge, so if you turned off both your gas and electricity you will still get a bill. High energy users can accept slightly higher standing charges for cheaper unit rates wheras low energy uses may accept the slightly higher unit rates for lower standing charges.


I think it's Cos (phi) not theta.


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## HamsterJam (18 Jun 2022)

Spectric said:


> That is the sort of book that got many boys into engineering, got them interested in physics and just something that gets the mind thinking and curiousity into overdrive.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tayloredge.com/museum/museum/TheBoyElectrician.pdf


The Ladybird book ‘Batteries, Bulbs and Magnets’ started my interest in electricity and that led me to a career in engineering.


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## Sandyn (18 Jun 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> The Ladybird book ‘Batteries, Bulbs and Magnets’ started my interest in electricity and that led me to a career in engineering


I met a lot of engineers that used the same training manual!!    ....its a joke. don't anyone take offence please


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## Scruples (18 Jun 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> The Ladybird book ‘Batteries, Bulbs and Magnets’ started my interest in electricity and that led me to a career in engineering.


Yes, me too. And later, Into programming and databases.


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## fred55 (7 Sep 2022)

Well what a year for energy in Britain - since I started end of last year energy's gone through the roof and there a war in Ukraine, sorry as I am, the good news is MY SOLAR PANELS are to be fitted tomorrow; as I stated I will try to give 'Yorkshire tight view' are they worth it or not !, What I've continued is my reduction of energy latest is turn down water temp and set it to on demand rather than keep the combi small hot water tank hot all day.

Just a small observation when young we had electric bulb in kitchen all the time, occasionally one for the best room. hot water copper in the little range, tin bath luckily I was 3rd of 4 but we all got washed Sun night ready for the school week,, leaky single glassed wooden windows, and back door always open, outside toilet of our own, heating in winter was that kitchen or a paraffin heater, and no global warming at that time so. The panic that's reported now now make me laugh - how did my generation survive :- Answers, please scratch in on the icy formation on your windows.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

fred55 said:


> Just a small observation when young we had electric bulb in kitchen all the time, occasionally one for the best room. hot water copper in the little range, tin bath luckily I was 3rd of 4 but we all got washed Sun night ready for the school week,, leaky single glassed wooden windows, and back door always open, outside toilet of our own, heating in winter was that kitchen or a paraffin heater, and no global warming at that time so. The panic that's reported now now make me laugh - how did my generation survive :- Answers, please scratch in on the icy formation on your windows.



I'm sure you also used less energy than someone living 20 miles from work, flying to at least one vacation, maybe two, heating their "efficient" house and cooling same with the accuracy of a tempering furnace. 

Much of the consumption behavior has been promoted by utilities - touting open floor plans and ways that you can add more to be a better customer. 

I'm not that (relatively) old, but when I was a kid, we took close vacations and the heat was off during sleeping hours. Never had a/c (not a cool area, either) until I was in high school, and then it was only small room units that consumed a fraction of cooling the whole house. 

My parents now have a relatively more energy efficient house but have had full house A/C retrofitted. Their vehicles get better mileage, but they drive more miles, canceling it out. And their power use is higher. They still do leave the lights off out of habit - unless you need them for a task or reading. That's a little offputting when visiting them - walking around in the dark and having them follow you to turn off lights after blasting away 25kw/hr on A/C. 

they are of means now, thus the consumption. WE are all relatively of means compared to 75 years ago and all of this posturing does little to curtail energy consumption. We'd have to halve it to get anywhere close to what people who thought only of thrift attained.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

Per capita U.S. residential electricity use was flat in 2020, but varied by state







www.eia.gov





OK, in the US on average, we'd have to quarter it. In 1960, people used a fan instead of an A/C. This is only electricity, but gas and oil consumption are probably similar. 

But we're "more efficient and conscious" at this point!


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## fred55 (14 Sep 2022)

Panels fitted and working producing more than I use (60% to 40%) best day Tues sunny all day produced 14.1 Kwh for the grid, run the house and charged up batteries for the evening and night: at present getting up in the morning to a reserve of 60 to 70% - need to see how it goes in Dec and Jan .

Problem 1 - the OVO meter not compatible so at present I get charge for all I produce for the grid the stupid meter can not differentiate if its going in or out. If we have another sunny day I feel like throwing blankets over the panels.

Problem 2 yes a rant - OVO ?? why can you not get an intelligent person on the phone who can make a decision - OVO Bot my ar*e - the customer service department is taken over by Bots and people who know nowt: just refer to internet, have you waiting, or set you on the 'roundabout', have you a smart meter: all because they don't know. So against my better judgement I've had to deal with a 'Bot' to have a smart meter fitted.


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## fred55 (3 Oct 2022)

Well I said I'd give a running report of a tight mans view of Solar panels - end of summers/Autumn report - using very little electric from the Grid ( 0.1kwh per day; why I don't know ) , the 7kwh battery are still 50% or more after the night (I'm using 99w to 200w per hour overnight). On a normal day they are full again by 10.30 am a sunny start full by 9. at moment self sufficient in electric and exporting. 
I am becoming an energy bore - cannot stop looking at the phone app to see how much I'm using or exporting; better than watching TV. 
£10,600 hell of a bill, but I'm please and would recommend them depending upon circumstances. Mainly check out the company mine did not charge a penny until they are fitted and working; plus they provide the paper work for completion. There are some horror stories out there and the demand has gone thought the roof since I started looking; So check Trustpilot and Which Trusted Trader or others sites for references.


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