# Krenov style high angle smoother



## Doug B (10 Jan 2010)

Since Racers`s demonstration of hardening a plane blade at Lurker`s Midland micro bash, i`ve been dead keen to have a go at making not only a plane but also the blade.

With this in mind i`ve been researching, reading Philly`s 2007 plane making articles in The Woodworker, reading past forum posts & then to my delight finding on my yearly shopping expedition to get the good lady wifes Xmas present, the Christmas F&C, with an article on Krenov style smoother.

So progress so far with the blade, cut to size, machined square & the bevel cut.






















So now the questions 

This is how i think i need to proceed next.

Heat the blade until cherry red, checking with a magnet that it is no longer magnetic, then keep it at this temperature for 15 minutes The blade is 1/4" thick.

Immerse the blade in oil *, moving it around to dissipate the heat for several minutes, then allow to cool naturally.

Clean off the oil, place in a hot oven 200 degrees C for 1 hour, turn off the oven & leave inside to cool with the oven.

* Philly in his article recommends peanut oil, though i`ve been told i should use old oil, i know pete used old engine oil.
Any info on this, or how i think i should proceed next would be gratefully 
received.


& finally in this installment :shock: 

These are the blanks i`ve prepared.






They are Pakauk, hopefully this timber will be ok? As it`s the only hardwood i have in 8"x 4" sections that i know is well seasoned. 
With its wonderful tearout i could do with a nice high angle smoother for preparing them :lol: :lol:.


Thanks for looking, all helpful advice welcome, i`m off to find a BBQ, charcoal & hair dryer, as a short hair veggie these are the most difficult items to source so far. :-k #-o


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## frugal (10 Jan 2010)

If you have a hot air paint stripping gun then they work wonderfully for getting a good heat up in a barbeque style forge as they also help to heat up the air.


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## woodbloke (10 Jan 2010)

Don't forget the plane in F&C had a lignum sole, so you might need to source a bit of something nasty and heavy :wink: - Rob


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## Philly (10 Jan 2010)

Doug
Old motor oil is fine - use whatever is handy or cheap!
Paduak should be perfect - its a very hard timber. A separate sole is not going to be needed.
If you need any help just shout!
Philly


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## woodbloke (10 Jan 2010)

Philly":3c9vzsll said:


> Paduak should be perfect - its a very hard timber.
> Philly


Philly is correct, paduk is hard, but not_ that_ hard (50lbsish/cu') whereas lignum is around 80-90lbs/cu'. If you do go down the separate sole route, it does make the process more difficult - Rob


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## Philly (10 Jan 2010)

Most British woodworkers have managed quite nicely for centuries with planes from Beech - 'nuff said! :lol: 
Philly


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## Racers (10 Jan 2010)

Hi. Doug 

Just heat the blade up and quench it, you don't need to hold it at red heat, and you will burn off all the carbon from the outside of the steel. You will need to hold the tempering tempriture so pop the blade in the oven after sunday dinner!


Pete


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## woodbloke (10 Jan 2010)

Philly":3tc1sis5 said:


> Most British woodworkers have managed quite nicely for centuries with planes from Beech - 'nuff said! :lol:
> Philly


...and who am I to argue Philly :lol: :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## Modernist (10 Jan 2010)

Go for it Doug - there's no backing out now.

Did Cromwells come up with that size steel?


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## Aled Dafis (10 Jan 2010)

Racers":3dxyfqzy said:


> Hi. Doug
> 
> Just heat the blade up and quench it, you don't need to hold it at red heat, and you will burn off all the carbon from the outside of the steel. You will need to hold the tempering tempriture so pop the blade in the oven after sunday dinner!
> 
> ...



Hrdening, Tempering and Heat Treatment - Tubal Cain clearly states

"...metallurgists and generations of blacksmiths over a century or more have established the rule : heat for *ONE HOUR PER INCH OF THICKNESS*, once the tool is up to the hardening temperature. 

...yes I know! You have _never_ held the heat for as long as this! I am sorry, but this means that you have never achieved the maximum possible hardness either!"

Cain goes on to describe how he carried out a test with 4 pieces of 1/4" stock, and heats them for 1min. 5min, 10min and 15min respectively. he states

"The reduction in hardness for the shorter time is quite evident - the "one minute piece" is softer "as hardened" than the tool should have been when tempered"

The book is a little hard going, but is packed with really usefull information, it should be on the bookshelf of anybody interested in doing a little hardening/tempering at home.

Cheers

Aled

Edit: I just found in the Tempering section, that the same rule applies. i.e. the tool should be held for *one hour per inch of thickness once it's up to the required temeprature* (generally about 220 degrees C for plane irons)


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## Doug B (11 Jan 2010)

Thank you for the replies so far chaps, most helpful.


I`ve found a hot air gun, thanks Frugal, though my wife is refusing to go to B&Q to find out if they`ve got charcoal in stock at the moment :lol: :lol:

Hopefully the snow will stop sometime in January :roll: & i`ll be able to get outside & get tempering .


Brian, "I phoned a friend" to find out if gauge plate was the same as o1.
After explaining what i was wanting to do, i got a dogging for wanting to "waste money on stuff he`d got, & to get over there with the sizes i needed". 

So i never got as far as Cromwell, though thanks for the recommendation. 

Cheers.


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## paulm (11 Jan 2010)

Like the timber choice and the nice thick steel.

What thickness and width are you making the blade ?

Cheers, Paul


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## Racers (11 Jan 2010)

Hi, 

I have not had any problems with my hardness :wink: in fact my scraper blade was to hard to roll a burr on, you could hear it fracturing so I had to temper it again.

Pete


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## Doug B (14 Jan 2010)

Today i finally managed to get some charcoal, you`d think with this glorious weather all the shops would have BBQ charcoal. :lol: One of the mums from my son`s school kindly donated a disposable BBQ, though i wish i hadn`t started to explain why i wanted it, i think it would have been easier to say i wanted a BBQ in the snow :shock: :lol:

So after doing a risk assessment, i figured i couldn`t do anything more Heath Robinson, so ploughed on un-deterred.




































The hot air gun worked a treat, in no time the blades were bright red, i decided to leave them for 15 minutes, more so because i was worried i wouldn`t have enough charcoal if it didn`t work first time.

After cooling in the oil, i noticed the oil didn`t coat as well where the blade was bright red, i`m hoping this is a good sign







To answer Pauls question the blades are 1/4 gauge plate, 1 being 47mm the other 43mm.

Finally i`d like to say i have no connection with Cadburys, other than my wife being a very happy consumer :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## JonnyD (14 Jan 2010)

Just noticed this Doug and its looking good. Ive always fancied having a go at making some woodies but never seem to get the time. Hurry up and get them finished so I can have a go with them when i come over.

cheers

Jon


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## Mr Ed (14 Jan 2010)

I've always thought making blades seemed a ball-ache so never looked into the detail. Your sequence of photos makes it look quite straightforward though. Maybe I'll give it a go (in the summer though!)

Ed


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## Philly (14 Jan 2010)

Doug
That looks right - the scale seem to come away from the red hot areas.
Get them tempered then look forward to the wonderful experience of cleaning them up and flattening them :wink: 
Cheers
Philly


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## xy mosian (14 Jan 2010)

If you've finished all those chocs since Christmas ..... well done. As for the forge I'm mightily impressed. I especially like the cut-out for the heat gun nozzle, well thought out! I suppose along with disposable BBQ if one were to add disposable forge that could be quite enjoyable.  

Keep up the interesting WIP's please.

xy


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## paulm (14 Jan 2010)

Doug B":j36c38xn said:


> To answer Pauls question the blades are 1/4 gauge plate, 1 being 47mm the other 43mm.



Thanks Doug, took a chance in the meantime and ordered some 6mm thick by 50mm wide by 500mm long stock from Cromwells, which seems about right then, inspired by the F&C article and your own efforts.

Don't know when I'll get time to do anything with it though !

Ordered some 1/2" diameter silver steel rod too to supplement my Hamlet Little Brother hollowing tool and perhaps make some pick type hollowing tools in George's (Cornucopia) style, again time permitting  

Cheers, Paul


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## Aled Dafis (14 Jan 2010)

Looks great Doug. 
A simple (completely unscientific and very subjective) way to check that the blade is now hard, is to try and file the blade, you'll find that the file will just skate along the steel without even thinking of taking any metal away. Dont get carried away though, as this will blunt your file in no time.

Paul

I've also been considering making a few "pick" turning tools, David Ellsworth's book covers this in good detail. Do you have any other links/info on the subject.

Before long we'll have a seperate toolmaking section on here.

Cheers

Aled


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## paulm (14 Jan 2010)

Just the pictures George posted on the spinney side Aled. 

Seem quite straightforwards, utilising an adapted ground hss drill bit or similar mounted in a length of silver steel with a bit of drilling and tapping.

Have just started exploring hollow forms rather than the same old bowls, but seems to be hard work so far and not as pleasant to execute, though I like the finished articles.

Anyway, don't want to hijack the thread too much, although maybe a bit late  :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


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## Modernist (14 Jan 2010)

Looking good Doug - have you tried them with a file yet?


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## Doug B (15 Jan 2010)

I tried the file trick as soon as they were cool enough handle & got a nice "ring" sound, so i`m hopeful things are going well.

Hope to get them in the oven tonight, i`ve offered to cook dinner :shock:, though why i need the oven on for beans on toast, Mrs B couldn`t understand :lol: :lol:.

Hope to crack on with the body over the weekend, so will post some more photos as & when.


Will be interested to know how on get on with the George type tools Paul, my hollow forms are coming on very very slowly, my admiration of George`s talent grows with every HF i attempt :?

Cheers.


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## Racers (15 Jan 2010)

Hi, Doug

Nice one! 

Do the ruler trick on the back to save time.

I thought you would have rounded the top over before hardening, it looks like it should still be soft at the top :shock: 


Pete


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## Doug B (15 Jan 2010)

Managed to escape tonight, so i`ve made some progress on the body.
I`ve basically followed the example in F&C, so the first photo shows the blank drilled for aligning dowels for when the sides are glued back on, also a hole for the pivoting support that the wedge is driven against.







The sides were then cut off 8mm thick, these & the inner sections were planed & checked that they would fit back together ok. The angles on the inner body were also cut, though i forgot to take a photo of this, so the next photo is of the wedge support ends being turned.






Next is a partial dry fit with dowels at the ready, note the deliberate mistake, this extra hole will be cut away with final shaping






Finally all glued back together, i couldn`t get another clamp on, honest 






Whilst i was doing this the blade had been cooking at 200 degrees C, & is now cooling nicely, i`ve got to work tomorrow so hopefully will make progress on the blade & wedge on Sunday.

As for the shape of the top of the blade, i`ve not made my mind up about that, i`m also not sure about the final shape of the body. So i think i`ll leave that until i`ve fitted the blade & seen that it works ok, before worrying about the design.


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## Doug B (17 Jan 2010)

Had a play with the blade this morning, got an edge on it, the ruler trick helped,thanks Pete. I made a wedge & fitted the blade in the plane, I then managed to get some shavings with it, so at least i`ve not wasted my time. 

Annoyingly the blade had bowed slightly during tempering, not much, but enough that it wasn`t sitting completely flat, i imagine this is part of the wonderful experience Philly referred to, so not being one who likes to struggle i`ve dropped it off at the engineers workshop to be flash ground.............. "cheat" who me? :lol: :lol:

So this afternoon i`ve been doing a little shaping of the body, i`ve not stuck to the original design as i have trouble gripping, so this is what i`ve come up with to suite my delicate hands. 
















For some inexplicable reason best known to Sod, between cutting the angles on the inner body & gluing up, a little piece of wood by the mouth came away, i presume this is just one of the joys ( :evil: ) of using Padauk. So in the last photo on the top right of the mouth you can see where i filled this little void with Araldite, i`m hoping this will be strong enough, it seems to have worked well so far. 

Thanks for looking.


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## Modernist (17 Jan 2010)

Looks really good Doug, amazing what you get done in a weekend! All I've managed is to re-hang some sliding wardrobe doors which had shrunk. Not surprising you may say until I tell you they are veneered MDF (1/4" over the length).

Good idea with the blade . It just dawned on me after your last post that these home made blades would be missing their surface grind.

What happened to the dowel holes?


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## Doug B (17 Jan 2010)

Thanks Brian.

The dowel holes got cut away with the shaping, the blank was over size to accommodate this.

The surface of the steel was surprisingly good after tempering, though it did need cleaning up, but it would have taken hours to file/ abrade the blade back flat by hand.

As for doors shrinking, most of ours have to some extent, i don`t put this down to poor materials, it`s the central heating being turned on full by the good lady the moment i put my foot outside. :evil:


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## Modernist (17 Jan 2010)

Doug B":w6ij818n said:


> The dowel holes got cut away with the shaping, the blank was over size to accommodate this.:



Cunning stuff - interesting that "Krenov" planes are now better made than the originals. You could hack at it with a gouge to leave the "mark of the artisan"

I'll be interested to see the sharpness of the blade in due course.


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## xy mosian (17 Jan 2010)

Nice work Doug  
I particularly like the curve to the front of the wedge.
Do you find it comfortable in use, or perhaps it's too early to say?

Have fun

xy


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## woodbloke (17 Jan 2010)

Modernist":2oqh20y5 said:


> Cunning stuff - interesting that "Krenov" planes are now better made than the originals. You could hack at it with a gouge to leave the "mark of the artisan"



Agreed...the originals were fairly rough:






but then JK was almost blind when he made this one...signed if you look carefully - Rob


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## Mr Ed (17 Jan 2010)

Nice work Doug; I really like the shape, although the timber colour isn't really to my taste.

I am seriously considering having a go at making my own blades now.

Ed


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## Doug B (17 Jan 2010)

Brian, 

the blade will prove interesting, i did do a bit of searching to see if i could buy one, but didn`t come up with anything to suite. The link in F&C to a blade maker wouldn`t work!

xy,

I`ve only oiled the plane a couple of times, so i can alter the shape if i find it uncomfortable, but the bulkier shape did fit my hands well. I will make a few more planes so this is really a prototype, so i don`t mind altering it if it means i end up with a shape i`m happy with. 

Ed,

I don`t mind the colour, it`s the timber itself i`m not that keen on, it seems very "brittle". I think i`ll be trying beech for my next attempt.

Also next time i will keep the blades on edge when they are in the charcoal, i think laying the blade flat could be the reason the blade bowed . All a learning curve though.


thanks for all the comments.


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## Racers (18 Jan 2010)

Hi, Doug

It might also have been the angle of the blade when you quenched it, but it looks like you had them upright. I have a old sauce pan that I fill 2/3rds of the way up with oil, so it has a large volume of oil for more even quenching.

Pete


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## Philly (18 Jan 2010)

Doug
You'll always find the mouth area to be fragile - extra care needs to be taken with the corners until the plane is glued up and trimmed. And if you make one-piece planes its even trickier to preserve clean, sharp edges. 
Keep up the good work,
Philly


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## richburrow (18 Jan 2010)

It is looking fantastic Doug,
Where did you get that rough looking, smelly, make you sneeze wood from?!?!?!!?
:wink:


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## Doug B (31 Jan 2010)

At last, the final update.

It`s been a couple of weeks waiting for the blades to return, but :-






Sooooo worth the wait & bottle of red vino it cost to have 2 polished perfectly flat blades, placed in my mits with no hard work involved on my part  .

A few minutes honing, then the blade was lovingly :roll: placed in the plane & voila 






Another piece of that (rough looking smelly make you sneeze wood purchase from my good friend Rich) was looking beautifully smooth with no tear out at all.

I`m really please with the plane, the padauk was a nightmare, impossible to plane with my stanley`s & not get tear out, but this plane eliminated any signs of it in a few passes.

The blade sharpen up beautifully, shaving hairs off my arm in no time, hopefully it will hold its edge well, it seems to do so far, as i`ve also had a good "go" at some Oak & it is still cutting well.

I like to thank everyone for their advice, in particular Pete (Maddex) these definitely wont be the last blades i make & as for planes the next is going to be a rebate plane, so any advice with regard to making one would be gratefully received. Thanks



I like this wooden plane slope, much easier on the wallet :lol: :lol:


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## JonnyD (31 Jan 2010)

looking good JT it must be very satisfying making everything from scratch and finding out it works really well.

cheers

Jon


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## Racers (31 Jan 2010)

Hi, Doug

Nice one! Padauk usually gets a visit from my scraper plane so it looks like you have made a cracking plane.

Watch out Philly Dougyplanes are about :wink: 


Pete


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## wizer (31 Jan 2010)

Lovely work.

Regards

Envious from Kent :lol: :lol:


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## Modernist (31 Jan 2010)

As you said Doug - turned out nice.

very nice actually


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## stevebuk (31 Jan 2010)

Well done mate, cant wait to see it in the flesh so to speak. =D> =D> =D>


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## bugbear (1 Feb 2010)

Doug B":2xqse2p9 said:


> Another piece of that (rough looking smelly make you sneeze wood purchase from my good friend Rich) was looking beautifully smooth with no tear out at all.
> 
> I`m really please with the plane, the padauk was a nightmare, impossible to plane with my stanley`s & not get tear out, but this plane eliminated any signs of it in a few passes.



High pitch strikes again!

BugBear


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## wizer (1 Feb 2010)

bugbear":2dvdyg5f said:


> High pitch strikes again!



Does that mean you're in favour of high pitch?

Doug, I know that your engineer friend did you a favour with these blades, but is this a normal way to treat blade? For example would Hock, for example, treat his blades like this? Or is this process 'over engineering'? I take it he used a milling machine? 

Could Milling machines be used for some of the woodworking on a plane? Such as the angle of the dangle?

Just wonderin'


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## Racers (1 Feb 2010)

Hi, Wizer

Ron surface grinds his blades, I just use the ruler trick on mine.

You could use a milling machine in wood plane making, but then that would take all the fun out.


Pete


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## Aled Dafis (1 Feb 2010)

Tom

A surface grinder is a specialised (and very expensive) bit of kit, ideal for grinding plane soles as well as irons, amongst other things. I really could do with one this week as I'm trying to finish a plane for the Axminster/Rycotewood gig.






Some companies surface frind their blades before heat treatment because it's easier (read cheaper) but unfortunately their good work is undone during the heat treartment process when the iron warps like hell. :evil: The better companies grind after heat treatment to ensure flatness, Veritas go one step further and actually diamond lap their blades to ensure complete flatness adjacent to the edge.

As regards using a milling machine to make wooden planes, yes it would make the job really easy, but I do think that it would be a little overkill. OTOH Karl holtey's wooden planes are made almost exclusively on CNC milling machines, and are absolutely superb!! Check out his blog. http://www.holteyplanes.com/blog

Cheers

Aled


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## wizer (1 Feb 2010)

Thanks Aled. I have been following Karl's blog but, apart from having some weird masculine attraction to all the machines and obvious precision, most of it flies of my head. 

Would a CNC router be any use with making wooden planes? I do realise about the fun, etc, part. Just wondering what machinery could be used. What can I say? I'm a machinery fetishist.


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## bugbear (1 Feb 2010)

wizer":3ekhmdkc said:


> bugbear":3ekhmdkc said:
> 
> 
> > High pitch strikes again!
> ...



For reducing tear out, yes. Once your blade is sharp, and bedding stable, pitch is the next "lever".

BugBear


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## wizer (1 Feb 2010)

thanks BB


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## Philly (1 Feb 2010)

Gents 
I think you'll find the use of a mill or CNC router to be rather limited when it comes to making wooden planes. Depth of cut, especially when you tilt the head (or workpiece) is severely restricted.
If you want to have a go, have a go - you have the tools you need already. If you could buy a "magic plane making machine" I'd have bought two and retired last year........... :lol: 
Philly


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## Doug B (1 Feb 2010)

thanks for the kind comments chaps,

Jonny, very satisfying mate. 


I don`t think Philly has anything to worry about Pete . As a foray into a different aspect of woodworking, this is a lot of fun & an inexpensive way of building up a collection of planes, with me hopefully learning more about the mechanics of planes.


Tom the blades were indeed ground on a surface grinder such as the one in Aled`s picture. 

Cheers.


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## DaveL (1 Feb 2010)

Philly":26630ner said:


> If you could buy a "magic plane making machine" I'd have bought two and retired last year........... :lol:


Still dreaming of the machine where you throw wood and steel in one end finished planes come out the other! :shock: 
We have one, its your workshop.  8)


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## Philly (2 Feb 2010)

DaveL":1lw3b90e said:


> Philly":1lw3b90e said:
> 
> 
> > If you could buy a "magic plane making machine" I'd have bought two and retired last year........... :lol:
> ...




Ha! Bravo, Dave :lol: 
Philly


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