# Box Sash Renovation



## Chip shop (24 Jan 2016)

OK, this is a bit boring, but it is something that others might learn from. 

Got to site this morning for a cut out, replace and paint job and found something that highlights the problems of oak cills. Oak don't take paint well. It's a box sash window made of pine, with an oak cill which is buggered. As a result the pulley stiles are goosed also.






Chip off the plaster inside:





Break apart the window by prizing away the staff bead and parting bead with a chisel (they're only nailed into place, so don't worry breaking stuff). You should end up with something like this:





Back in the workshop I mark out...badly:





Make the housings for the pulley stiles(these will be wedged into place)...





Then get to work on the cill.


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## biskit (24 Jan 2016)

Bringing back fond memories. Hope you boarded up the opening before you left the job.? More please.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2016)

Chip shop":qaqxz931 said:


> OK, this is a bit boring, but it is something that others might learn from.
> 
> Got to site this morning for a cut out, replace and paint job and found something that highlights the problems of oak cills. Oak don't take paint well. It's a box sash window made of pine, with an oak cill which is buggered. As a result the pulley stiles are goosed also.......


Done a few of those over the years! I've sometimes found wormy or rotten oak cills but with the stiles still in perfect condition - showing how much more durable redwood is.
I wonder of oak cills would fare better with linseed oil paints? Modern paints are hopeless for trad restoration work.


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## Chip shop (24 Jan 2016)

biskit":1cs3e9v9 said:


> Bringing back fond memories. Hope you boarded up the opening before you left the job.? More please.



Yup, all boarded up with a very attractive sheet of OSB. There certainly is more to come.


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## Chip shop (24 Jan 2016)

Jacob":zgqaecn9 said:


> Chip shop":zgqaecn9 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, this is a bit boring, but it is something that others might learn from.
> ...



It's a good question. I've used linseed oil paint predominantly for the last few years (on your advice as it happens!), but the pain is the availability. I've had some on order for over a week and nothing has turned up. I used to get it off a firm called Holkham(sp?). The only stuff I can find now is from an outfit called 'Precious Earth' who I always imagine sitting 'round a camp fire, smoking weed and poring pigment into a cast iron cauldron. Where do you get your paint from?


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## mikefab (24 Jan 2016)

I will be following this with interest too as I am currently making my own first sliding sash window for our kitchen although there are many more restorations and replacements to follow. Box frame is done and the sashes will follow soonish. 

I have a couple of old joinery books, one from the the early part of the 20th century and one from around WW2 and both (I think) state that oak cills are used on 'better quality work'. The books are on loan to someone so I can't make a better citation than that... Time obviously didn't bear that theory out though!


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## Chip shop (24 Jan 2016)

mikefab":3luu86x0 said:


> I will be following this with interest too as I am currently making my own first sliding sash window for our kitchen although there are many more restorations and replacements to follow. Box frame is done and the sashes will follow soonish.
> 
> I have a couple of old joinery books, one from the the early part of the 20th century and one from around WW2 and both (I think) state that oak cills are used on 'better quality work'. The books are on loan to someone so I can't make a better citation than that... Time obviously didn't bear that theory out though!



Woodworking books are great, but they represent an opinion of a geezer who was perhaps slightly distanced from house bashing. Experience has taught me(and my Dad as it goes) that hardwood cills are bobbins. Pretty much all my stuff is done in U/S redwood. 

Anyhow; I managed to get the pockets cut this morning, before people turned up to talk at me.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2016)

Chip shop":2eptxhgn said:


> Jacob":2eptxhgn said:
> 
> 
> > Chip shop":2eptxhgn said:
> ...


It's swedish "Allback" brand paint which Holkham Hall marketed under their own name but now sold elsewhere under both names I think. Should be no prob.
I wish I'd known about it years ago - I've seen bits of my work looking really shoddy after a few years under modern paints. It's all very well blaming the decorator but I'd rather the stuff stayed in good nick!

Theres loads of stuff about it on the net e.g. http://www.countrylife.co.uk/property/g ... paint-8342
The big issue was the use of lead which is banned. The assumption was that it was the lead which gave trad paint longevity but that has now changed, it's the linseed oil which gets the credit and trad paint comes back in from the cold.


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## HOJ (25 Jan 2016)

Following with interest, been asked to price up to restore/replace 5 windows, not sure how to though, without going on Day work.

Would Accoya not be a good choice of wood to use?


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## Chip shop (25 Jan 2016)

HOJ":3n5qq5km said:


> Following with interest, been asked to price up to restore/replace 5 windows, not sure how to though, without going on Day work.
> 
> Would Accoya not be a good choice of wood to use?



Don't really know much about Accoya. As I've mentioned above my stuff is Joinery grade redwood (Scots Pine). It works well, takes paint pretty well, is readily available and it seems to have been used by the old lads (who knew a hell of a lot more about woodworking than me).

As far as pricing goes (not sure if talking about pricing is acceptable - MODS please edit if necessary); if I was to re-make this window, including for ripping out, making, priming, fitting, glazing and making good I would charge £1450 + vat. Maybe I'd stick a £100 contingency depending on the customer. This is assuming I can re-use the pulleys and latches, if not these get added at cost plus 30%. I guess all this will depend on the geographical area. Remember the making good is as important to the customer as the window. Always allow for some re-pointing, so a bag of lime or sand and cement. A bag of bonding, and obviously a bag of skim. 

Finally, and if anyone is still with me I admire your sticking power :lol: allow for working upstairs. This might sound ridiculous, but it's become a pet hate of mine. Especially when the customer has had a new white stair carpet fitted and you end up traipsing up and down stairs spending more time adjusting dust sheets than you do actually fitting.


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## biskit (25 Jan 2016)

Still with you budd, (hammer) working along with you.  Wish I could have charged those kind of prices. :mrgreen:


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## HOJ (25 Jan 2016)

Appreciate your honesty, I am concerned that I may get the pricing so wrong on a renovation proposition,
repair sashes, replace all the sills, replace all cords, re putty all the glass, replace staff beads etc etc.

Making a new replacement isn't an issue for pricing as I would expect to charge similar numbers.

The Accoya option, if required, has been agreed as I have not long ago made some standard casement windows for the same customer.

3 upstairs, 2 down, thankfully no white carpets to contend with.

Geographical, no problem 1 mile from home and 1 mile from workshop, from the opposite direction.


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## Chip shop (25 Jan 2016)

First up, work with a material you're comfortable with. Accoya might be the best thing since sliced bread, but if a customer asked me to do a job in material that I hadn't worked with before...I'd tell 'em where to stick it. I know about windows and they don't. 

You're the tradesman, it's your job to tell them how it should be done.

EDIT: Sorry that post made me sound like a dick. Beading should take no longer than 15 minutes at the spindle and my mate does all the glazing.

5 sashes = 8500 ish. Hope this helps


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## rhrwilliams (2 Feb 2016)

Keep this thread going, looking forward to seeing the box sash made. Ive made sashes but not the box so interested in this one.


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## Chip shop (3 Feb 2016)

rhrwilliams":164ifgqn said:


> Keep this thread going, looking forward to seeing the box sash made. Ive made sashes but not the box so interested in this one.



Yeah sorry, this got put on hold due to other repair work after the bad weather. Hopefully it'll be getting fitted tomorrow. I'll post some more pics later.


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## Chip shop (3 Feb 2016)

I've been having the existing sashes re-glazed, and there's been roofing work to do, so this has been on the back burner.

Cut the head housings. I mark these off the inner cheeks of the cill housing then cut the pocket fillers. I make these really baggy, 'cos once they've expanded and they've had paint on them they're a pain in the buttocks to pry away. The parting bead grooves are done on the spindle with pocket covers taped in place





Next, I notch the cill to take the front lining:





Wedge the pulley stiles in. Make sure you cut the wedge shy of your linings.







Cut the mould for the front lining, I usually do a bit extra, incase I cock something up.





Finally, for tonight's episode, I cut the front lining, which should look something like this:


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## Jacob (3 Feb 2016)

I always did my own glazing. It's not difficult (after a few initial cock ups) and you get it done better than by most glaziers, particularly if you have 5mm rebates and don't want putty showing from the inside. Also means you can use old glass (nice shiny ripply effect) which in turn means you might also get away with the old weights.
It's a nice lazy and satisfying job to do in a warm workshop!
Useful tip - old pot of putty can be softened up with a quick blast in a microwave.


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## Chip shop (4 Feb 2016)

Jacob":2vs7muo6 said:


> I always did my own glazing. It's not difficult (after a few initial cock ups) and you get it done better than by most glaziers, particularly if you have 5mm rebates and don't want putty showing from the inside. Also means you can use old glass (nice shiny ripply effect) which in turn means you might also get away with the old weights.
> It's a nice lazy and satisfying job to do in a warm workshop!
> Useful tip - old pot of putty can be softened up with a quick blast in a microwave.



Nice tip on the putty.

I'd agree with you, and I will do my own glazing if I have to, but my mate does really high end stained glass work. His cutting and glazing (and lead work where necessary) is so fast and neat it just makes sense to use him. Plus, he uses me for any timber work.


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## Chip shop (4 Feb 2016)

Right ho, here we go.

The excitement of cutting the mitres, rough cut then pare with a chisel.





Check the back and front for square:









Just the back linings and some beading and we're done.


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## rhrwilliams (5 Feb 2016)

This is great, pictures paint a thousand words and all that . Thanks for sharing.


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## Chip shop (6 Feb 2016)

Anyone notice the ridiculous cockup? Keep in mind I'm supposed to be fitting today and I've documented everything other than supplying pictures of the inner linings.


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## biskit (6 Feb 2016)

Wouldn't it be easier to fit the cord rollers while it's on the bench? Looks nice work, is it being painted?


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## Selwyn (6 Feb 2016)

I've started on the linseed oil paint on a howdens door this week. I like it - hope it works well. Needed a bit of thinning down and didn't have any turps so I had to use some kerosine!


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## Chip shop (6 Feb 2016)

biskit":1q99kukg said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to fit the cord rollers while it's on the bench? Looks nice work, is it being painted?



A thousand internets to you. I totally forgot about the pulleys. I'm an silly person! Thankfully I have them in stock as the old ones are buggered.


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## rhrwilliams (6 Feb 2016)

Only problem with linseed is drying time ! You need a UV thing to dry it if it's cold .


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## Jacob (6 Feb 2016)

If you are using Allback linseed oil paint it doesn't need thinning but if it did you'd use linseed oil. It doesn't have solvents added.
For primer you use raw linseed oil straight. Best if warmed up and done in workshop before glazing, with shellac in the glazing rebates (on top of the linseed oil)
It dries OK in cold weather - just a bit slower than modern paints so you might have to work a schedule around it. But once it's primed it'll survive quite well and can be left until warmer weather comes.


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## Chip shop (6 Feb 2016)

For a little bit of closure to this thread, here's the completed frame:





Fitting tomorrow now.


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## Chip shop (6 Feb 2016)

As a footnote to this; my mate who was going to glaze the windows, dropped them off tonight saying that he couldn't glaze them as they're knackered. My immediate reaction was to agree and suggest the best solution was to go to the pub. We've been to the pub and the window still isn't fixed!  





This is a question for Jacob and anyone else that does renovation work. At what point do you decide to renovate and at what point do you re-make?


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## Bm101 (6 Feb 2016)

Chip shop":hhwu7q7z said:


> This is a question for Jacob and anyone else that does renovation work. At what point do you decide to renovate and at what point do you re-make?



Im a window cleaner, not a carpenter but for me it's when I'd have to go back and renovate them the year after because all the filler was falling out.  
I appreciate that wasn't what you were asking though. 
Here's the point I decided at my newish gaff.



























If you look at the second photo you can see the exact point where I realised I'd have to renew all the uprights (sorry don't know the right name). Balls. Live and learn. Back down the wood yard then and try and pretend I know what I'm talking about so I don't get stiffed.
Hope the heads ok tomorrow. 
Great thread, thanks for posting. 
Right, back in the quiet corner for me.
Regards
Chris


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## HOJ (7 Feb 2016)

I met up with my client last week, having priced up for the renovation work on the understanding that I would not be certain as to the extent of work until I started, so the price was based on a worst case scenario!

We are now pricing to make replacements to compare the costs, which will include the possibility of fitting DG Sash-lite units.

There are no conditions re. Listed building or in a conservation area so that is not an issue in my case.

I suppose the bottom line is a fine one between the percentage of cost of repair and the life of the repaired unit or window, relative to making a new one.

If I work that out I will let you know.


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## Chip shop (7 Feb 2016)

Fitting today..with a hangover





Action shot:


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## Chip shop (8 Feb 2016)

Pointing up and making good is pretty important:


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## biskit (20 Feb 2016)

OK must be finished by now  Love the action shot  looks good though up to now. ccasion5:


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## Chip shop (28 Feb 2016)

biskit":q1p3vtyk said:


> OK must be finished by now  Love the action shot  looks good though up to now. ccasion5:




Oddly enough, this one's still dragging its heals. Sashes are waiting for the builder:


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## Chip shop (12 Mar 2016)

It's all been a bit long winded, but there have been issues beyond my control.

The before:





The after:


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## deema (12 Mar 2016)

Just out of curiosity, traditionally the liners would be housed onto the styles to keep it water proof as the wood moved. Have you had any issues with just planting the liners on?


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## Chip shop (12 Mar 2016)

deema":3fjjmuog said:


> Just out of curiosity, traditionally the liners would be housed onto the styles to keep it water proof as the wood moved. Have you had any issues with just planting the liners on?



Interesting question. I don't claim to have vast experience, but I've only ever seen housed liners in books. All the box frames I've seen 'round my neck of the woods are planted on. Perhaps a regional thing? To answer your question, I've not experienced water ingress issues with planted on liners.


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## deema (12 Mar 2016)

Could be, I remembered also seeing it in Gorge Ellis, Modern Practucal Joinery. Anyway, it's the way I have made them.







The planted on method shown is for 1 1/2" common sashes and the other is for 2" sashes. Nit a lot of extra work if you have a Soindle moulder. However, I will try just planting them on next time for a small window and see how it goes on.


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## Chip shop (12 Mar 2016)

deema":u0ptmdfs said:


> Could be, I remembered also seeing it in Gorge Ellis, Modern Practucal Joinery. Anyway, it's the way I have made them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, I think it was Ellis where I saw that detail. I've always just copied what was already there. All the stuff I've seen has been country work, so I assume it's perhaps a bit rough and ready, but fit for purpose. I've always assumed Ellis's stuff was tailored for chippys daaaan Laaandaan way, where they're a bit posher than yokels like me.

EDIT: 'cos I didn't want to double post...and I had an idle thought while I was supposed to be putting up guttering!

That tongue on the pulley stiles makes sense on a bit of paper, but I'm not sure how much difference it'll make in real life. If timber's gonna move, there's not much that's going to stop it.


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## ColeyS1 (12 Mar 2016)

deema":3o6qcja2 said:


> Not a lot of extra work if you have a Spindle moulder. However, I will try just planting them on next time for a small window and see how it goes on.


I make em the same way as you- personally I'd stick with the method you use already.It's got a much bigger glue area, easy to locate, no straight through joint incase the glue fails etc etc. The pros of it make it worth the extra effort imho. 

Coley


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## Chip shop (12 Mar 2016)

To be honest, I don't glue the linings on at all. Nailed and painted in place seems to do the trick.

EDIT:because this has been bugging me...

I'm starting to doubt myself, but I still don't see the advantage of tongue and grooving the outer linings and stiles (I'm assuming this is what we're talking about?).

[my thinking]
If the linings move a bit then that's OK, and can be rectified if necessary (never happened to me, but I suppose it could) but I don't want them dragging the box with them. My concern is the box twisting and fouling the sashes, or clanging the weights. 
[/my thinking]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm really interested in everyone's thoughts on this.


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## Chip shop (16 Nov 2016)

Bumping this thread 'cos I'm interested in everyone's answer to the above.

I have to make another one in morning...do I T&G the linings or not?


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## AndyT (16 Nov 2016)

From looking at what has been ripped out and skipped by misguided neighbours, nailing on without T&G was the norm round here. Ours are still in good shape after 100+ years, so I've not dismantled them to check!


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## ColeyS1 (16 Nov 2016)

Chip shop":6shfj9nb said:


> Bumping this thread 'cos I'm interested in everyone's answer to the above.
> 
> I have to make another one in morning...do I T&G the linings or not?


Best advice I ever had, was listen to everyone's reasonings, then base your decision on what you thinks best. At the end of the day it's your name you're putting on the work  

Coley


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## ColeyS1 (16 Nov 2016)

That said, if you wanna listen to other people's thoughts and make YOUR own decision, you might need to change this attitude !!!! -



Chip shop":fbs1uaid said:


> Woodworking books are great, but they represent an opinion of a geezer who was perhaps slightly distanced from house bashing. Experience has taught me(and my Dad as it goes) that hardwood cills are bobbins. Pretty much all my stuff is done in U/S redwood.



House bashing doesn't really do your work justice. I'd call it joinery  

Coley


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## RossJarvis (16 Nov 2016)

Chip shop":38nq34gy said:


> Bumping this thread 'cos I'm interested in everyone's answer to the above.
> 
> I have to make another one in morning...do I T&G the linings or not?



If I understand what you're saying correctly, I wouldn't think so. I just put a new one in recently which was only grooved for the inside cill. However I think local practice can vary. For instance I've not seen horns on the top of the inner sash around here.


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## biskit (18 Nov 2016)

Working through from the 60s for 50 years I've not come across many with T&G even on the larger better built houses. The only place that ever leaked water was the mastic that had cracked.


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## Chip shop (21 Nov 2016)

ColeyS1":3l4ne8ip said:


> That said, if you wanna listen to other people's thoughts and make YOUR own decision, you might need to change this attitude !!!! -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know what you mean, but no one seems to see any value in decent joinery anymore. I've just done a big porch renovation which consisted of all new cills, repairs to the mullions, all new glass and a new stable door (including for hanging, all new hardware and weather bar). IMHO it looks brilliant. All I got was 'perhaps we should have done it in plastic after all!'


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## ColeyS1 (21 Nov 2016)

Plastics only good for so many years though. Then it'll start deteriorating and start looking cack. Atleast wood could in theory last forever if it's taken care of.

Coley


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## Chip shop (21 Nov 2016)

ColeyS1":3j28hc99 said:


> Plastics only good for so many years though. Then it'll start deteriorating and start looking cack. Atleast wood could in theory last forever if it's taken care of.
> 
> Coley



I know that, you know that, pretty much everyone on this forum knows that, but we only represent a small percentage of the population of this country.

UPVC and foam are the scourge of my job.


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## RossJarvis (21 Nov 2016)

Chip shop":o07jmx77 said:


> ColeyS1":o07jmx77 said:
> 
> 
> > Plastics only good for so many years though. Then it'll start deteriorating and start looking cack. Atleast wood could in theory last forever if it's taken care of.
> ...



I prefer wood, most of us do, but I recommend UPVC as most people aren't going to look after the paint. It's not uncommon to see wood rotted out after 10 years as the windows weren't treated, weren't painted properly to start with and the customer only paints it when it's too late, because they only think of doing it when the paint's falling off.


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## ColeyS1 (22 Nov 2016)

RossJarvis":2hdnzogy said:


> Chip shop":2hdnzogy said:
> 
> 
> > ColeyS1":2hdnzogy said:
> ...


Yeah, I agree. For that reason I always encourage customers to have windows/doors made from hardwood. Usually the extra cost is frowned upon, but as soon as the cost of labour vs materials is explained, they usually agree it makes sense.
I've only made one softwood window in the last 10 years. It was for a listed church and despite it being painted and me offering to make it from hardwood for no extra cost, the powers that be insisted it had to go back as is. If that should ever need remaking, it'll cost em a few quid ! :lol: 

Coley


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