# Vaccination



## Garno (28 Jan 2021)

Just had a phone call from my doctors surgery.

Having my first Covid jab on Sunday (31st) and my second one on the 18th April.
I am extremely happy and will no doubt get there early


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## gwaithcoed (28 Jan 2021)

Pleased t hear it. Had mine 10 days ago and am over the moon


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## doctor Bob (28 Jan 2021)

Good stuff.
I was offered one when I took my parents on 20th Jan. As they though I was their carer.
I turned it down, didn't seem right.
Hope I don't croak it, before I get my offical one .


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## RobinBHM (28 Jan 2021)

I see a guy in his 30s was given an appointment for a vaccine...somewhere in London.


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## Nigel Burden (28 Jan 2021)

My wife had hers last Tuesday along with the residents and other staff in the care home. No reaction whatsoever, though some staff had reactions. I still have a while to wait though.

Nigel.


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## Amateur (28 Jan 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I see a guy in his 30s was given an appointment for a vaccine...somewhere in London.


could have had underlying conditions.


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## Jelly (28 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> could have had underlying conditions.


I think I heard on the radio that they're now on to group 4 in some areas, so that fits...

However I think that misses a different point in @RobinBHM's post... 

It's interesting that London and the South East has miraculously managed to get to that stage faster than other regions with younger population demographics, where logically you'd think with less people in high priority groups they'd already be further down the list.


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## Garno (28 Jan 2021)

I'm in the vulnerable category. I believe that is also group 4 although wouldn't swear on it.
I am also fortunate in that I do not have to travel far as again I believe some people are having to travel long distances to get theirs.


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## MikeJhn (29 Jan 2021)

I have my appointment on Sunday, age range 70-75 in Kent.


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## TRITON (29 Jan 2021)

I'm working on the principle, that the longer it takes for me to get notification, the fitter my doctor thinks I am.


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## Rorschach (29 Jan 2021)

The system seems to be working well. We had hoped the vulnerable person in our family would have had their 2nd before now but the best they could do was 10 week gap so another couple of weeks wait yet. Still the protection from the first one should have kicked in well by now and they feel much happier going out and about, months of deterioration to try and cure now if possible.


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## RobinBHM (29 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> could have had underlying conditions.


he didn't....it was an administrative error it seems.


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## RobinBHM (29 Jan 2021)

TRITON said:


> I'm working on the principle, that the longer it takes for me to get notification, the fitter my doctor thinks I am.


I like that train of thought


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## Just4Fun (29 Jan 2021)

Garno said:


> I am extremely happy and will no doubt get there early


Point of order Mr Chairman! A relative who has had his first jab was specifically told NOT to get there early because they did not want a queue of at-risk, as-yet unvaccinated, people mingling together whilst they waited. That makes sense to me. Might be a good idea to be punctual but no more.
Incidentally in my relative's case they were very exact with their schedule. His appointment was for something like 15:32 and apparently they working to that having had no time slippage even that late in the day.


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## Padster (29 Jan 2021)

My wife and I have had our jabs, my wife has had to shield, so was in one of the top groups, I have an underlying condition that meant I would be soon after but they sent us for first jab together, no date for the second and our daughter (17) has not been notified so seems they are generally sticking to the way we think it should be rolled out.
We were also told to not be early but punctual, and they were spot on time - it is being run like a very precise military operation, very impressive actually.


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## Garno (29 Jan 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> Point of order Mr Chairman! A relative who has had his first jab was specifically told NOT to get there early because they did not want a queue of at-risk, as-yet unvaccinated, people mingling together whilst they waited. That makes sense to me. Might be a good idea to be punctual but no more.
> Incidentally in my relative's case they were very exact with their schedule. His appointment was for something like 15:32 and apparently they working to that having had no time slippage even that late in the day.



I'm far too grumpy to do mingling 
You do make a valid points though thank you.


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## TheUnicorn (29 Jan 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Good stuff.
> I was offered one when I took my parents on 20th Jan. As they though I was their carer.
> I turned it down, didn't seem right.
> Hope I don't croak it, before I get my offical one .


saw an article on this the other day, apparantly, especially with the pfizer vac (which has the whole storage issue with temperature), if vaccines are left over at the end of a day / session, they could easily have to be thrown out, so in fact it could well be in everyone's interest to take a vaccine if you are offered it. 

My local GP surgery has awful admin staff (not just a recent thing, I completely appreciate that there is a lot of added strain right now), my mother in her late 70s has been waiting patiently to be contacted about her jab, her neighbour in her early 70s has been phoned already, when my mother phoned up to find out what was happening she was told she'd been phoned several times and messages were left, pure fiction. Similarly, I'm shielding, and so should be getting a jab now, again, nothing. I take some comfort in the fact that the number that have had the vaccine is rapidly increasing, so at least the much fabled herd immunity is eventually starting to happen


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## Amateur (29 Jan 2021)

Looking good for supplies of the vaccine if what I read is correct. 366 million doses ordered of the 7 most promising corona virus vaccines.


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## Jester129 (29 Jan 2021)

Getting my first jab on Monday. 'Only' 62, but a volunteer driver so have been offered it. Hardly going to refuse.


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## TonyWs (29 Jan 2021)

Ahem.....had mine in September! Volunteered for the Oxford vaccine study, so also had to have a multitude of blood and swab tests. It was 50/50 whether I had the real vaccine or a placebo, but when I was offered the vaccine this week, I had to find out if I was already protected. Turns out I was.


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## Garno (29 Jan 2021)

TonyWs said:


> Ahem.....had mine in September! Volunteered for the Oxford vaccine study, so also had to have a multitude of blood and swab tests. It was 50/50 whether I had the real vaccine or a placebo, but when I was offered the vaccine this week, I had to find out if I was already protected. Turns out I was.



That's good news Tony.
Not sure what one I will be getting.
I know 2 people in Southport who had a jab yesterday and they were given a card with confirmation that they have had the first one, just wondering if that is normal practise or are the cards given out after the 2nd jab (if at all) anyone else had a card?


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## Rorschach (29 Jan 2021)

Cards seem to be common showing date and type of vaccination. My relative didn't get one though that is possible because it was back in December and there was only one choice then.


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## Padster (29 Jan 2021)

Garno said:


> That's good news Tony.
> Not sure what one I will be getting.
> I know 2 people in Southport who had a jab yesterday and they were given a card with confirmation that they have had the first one, just wondering if that is normal practise or are the cards given out after the 2nd jab (if at all) anyone else had a card?


We were given a card and told it was proof of vaccination and that you needed it to get the second jab - had the pfizer one made my arm ache for a day or two but no other symptoms or side effects thankfully.

Padster


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## Amateur (29 Jan 2021)

One reason the UK have ordered another 60 million doses of vaccine is because they know it protects for six months and these are probably for the autumn


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## paulrbarnard (29 Jan 2021)

Garno said:


> I'm far too grumpy to do mingling
> You do make a valid points though thank you.


My boss lives in the states and went for his jab earlier this week. He said it was a complete nightmare with literally hundreds of people queuing through three floors of a large civic building. The problem was entirely down to the over 70 demographic getting the jab having nothing else to do so arriving early, hours early in many cases. It just caused a log jam and there was no way to send people away until their registered time. 
My boss was fuming at having to spend three hours shuffling through a building trying to work on his laptop at the same time. Yes he is in the over 70 group but does still run a multi national corporation.


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## Peterm1000 (29 Jan 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> saw an article on this the other day, apparantly, especially with the pfizer vac (which has the whole storage issue with temperature), if vaccines are left over at the end of a day / session, they could easily have to be thrown out, so in fact it could well be in everyone's interest to take a vaccine if you are offered it.
> 
> My local GP surgery has awful admin staff (not just a recent thing, I completely appreciate that there is a lot of added strain right now), my mother in her late 70s has been waiting patiently to be contacted about her jab, her neighbour in her early 70s has been phoned already, when my mother phoned up to find out what was happening she was told she'd been phoned several times and messages were left, pure fiction. Similarly, I'm shielding, and so should be getting a jab now, again, nothing. I take some comfort in the fact that the number that have had the vaccine is rapidly increasing, so at least the much fabled herd immunity is eventually starting to happen



All the vaccination clinics have no-shows and vaccinations are available to people outside the normal groups if they turn up at the end of the day. That's how my daughter got her vaccine (19, but works on a cancer ward).


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## Nigel Burden (29 Jan 2021)

TRITON said:


> I'm working on the principle, that the longer it takes for me to get notification, the fitter my doctor thinks I am.



I don't go to the doctor, or at least that's what the last doctor I saw about four years ago told me. My reply was that, "I don't come to see you guys unless I really have to. You might tell me something that I don't wish to know, and if I don't know, I won't worry about it." To which he replied, "You might well have a point there."

Nigel.


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## D_W (29 Jan 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> My boss lives in the states and went for his jab earlier this week. He said it was a complete nightmare with literally hundreds of people queuing through three floors of a large civic building. The problem was entirely down to the over 70 demographic getting the jab having nothing else to do so arriving early, hours early in many cases. It just caused a log jam and there was no way to send people away until their registered time.
> My boss was fuming at having to spend three hours shuffling through a building trying to work on his laptop at the same time. Yes he is in the over 70 group but does still run a multi national corporation.



Hopefully, that's not the usual here (in the states). My wife got vaccinated (health care) and had two solid appointments (no waiting). Her parents, brother, sister in law (old, teacher, and dental worker, in order) and my parents all got appointments and went for their first so far with no wait. 

I have heard that some of the vaccinations have been organized in community settings, etc, where this is a one time thing ,and that invites disorder and waiting. But for anyone over 70, I'd say this is well worth the wait. 

If you're over 70 and that impatient, then there is probably something to work on in terms of priority. I've got a relative like your boss - he's in his mid 70s and retired a couple of years ago, but has gone from being on the gimmick 100% of the time to starting to lose his memory. He has at least 50x the money that he'd need to grow old, but I don't think he ever stopped to think about it and try to be good at something else (his wife died waiting for him to retire - he's just now gotten to seeing his adult children regularly).


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## doctor Bob (29 Jan 2021)

400000 plus today.
We really are doing well on this front.


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## Garno (30 Jan 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> 400000 plus today.
> We really are doing well on this front.



Totally agree.
I think it will soon be 1 million a day


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## Rorschach (30 Jan 2021)

I thought we had surpassed 500k a day, or was that a one off push for the media's benefit?


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## Garno (30 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I thought we had surpassed 500k a day, or was that a one off push for the media's benefit?



I very much doubt that the whole of the NHS would do a "One off push" for the media's benefit.


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## Rorschach (30 Jan 2021)

Garno said:


> I very much doubt that the whole of the NHS would do a "One off push" for the media's benefit.



Don't be so sure, plenty of NHS managers will already be planning ahead for the inquries to come. They know that a major shakeup of the system is going to happen once this is under control, can't be put off any longer.


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## TheUnicorn (30 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I thought we had surpassed 500k a day, or was that a one off push for the media's benefit?


according to Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard we haven't ever quite done 500,000 in a single day, the average looks to be close to 300,000


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## doctor Bob (30 Jan 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> according to Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard we haven't ever quite done 500,000 in a single day, the average looks to be close to 300,000


I think weather is not helping at present. Get a few good dry weeks and it will go up.


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## TheUnicorn (30 Jan 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I think weather is not helping at present. Get a few good dry weeks and it will go up.


I was under the impression the hold up was supply (or specifically quality control) of vaccines. That said, though not faultless, I think the speed of vaccination so far is pretty good, beating most, aside from israel


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## Rorschach (30 Jan 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> according to Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard we haven't ever quite done 500,000 in a single day, the average looks to be close to 300,000



I must have misheard then, thanks.


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## OldWood (30 Jan 2021)

In Scotland we are meant to be getting the call in blue envelopes. Nothing all week ! 

Anyway I went shopping this morning in the opposite direction to the surgery and got a mobile call to attend in 45 minutes - I'm 78 and not vulnerable!! Got it put back another half hour and was really impressed by how slickly and in a friendly manner they were getting through all the older folks rolling up.
Rob


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## Garno (30 Jan 2021)

OldWood said:


> In Scotland we are meant to be getting the call in blue envelopes. Nothing all week !
> 
> Anyway I went shopping this morning in the opposite direction to the surgery and got a mobile call to attend in 45 minutes - I'm 78 and not vulnerable!! Got it put back another half hour and was really impressed by how slickly and in a friendly manner they were getting through all the older folks rolling up.
> Rob



Glad to hear you are having it done today Rob it will be a big weight off your mind, only 24 hours to go before I get mine


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## NormanB (30 Jan 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I see a guy in his 30s was given an appointment for a vaccine...somewhere in London.


Lots of folks under 65 have had it, in London and elsewhere, seen and unseen, likely to have been a Healthcare, care worker or volunteer in the vaccination programme.


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## NormanB (30 Jan 2021)

OldWood said:


> In Scotland we are meant to be getting the call in blue envelopes. Nothing all week !
> 
> Anyway I went shopping this morning in the opposite direction to the surgery and got a mobile call to attend in 45 minutes - I'm 78 and not vulnerable!! Got it put back another half hour and was really impressed by how slickly and in a friendly manner they were getting through all the older folks rolling up.
> Rob


Scotland was frustrated in their attempt to use blue envelopes because of supply issues. It is still their intent to use the blues when supply is secured. 
However, in view of recent developments the EU may well embargo the ‘blues’. In their attempt to win hearts and minds.


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## NormanB (30 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> One reason the UK have ordered another 60 million doses of vaccine is because they know it protects for six months and these are probably for the autumn


That is not the reason at all.


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## Owd Jockey (30 Jan 2021)

Just back from my second day shift at a local vaccination centre in Shrewsbury as a NHS Volunteer, i've had two days of helping with patient flows. While there has been large queues in nearby Telford, we have had virtually no queues at all! I think it depends not only on the building and procedures you are working with but the cohorts that are receiving the jab. The last two days have been predominantly frontline staff and support workers and I was able to scour the car parks and advise people that they could simply go straight in as there was no queue. This insured the car park never filled up. It worked well and this centre was doing 400/day. A 75+ age cohort would be different though. Still we are getting there and I am proud to be doing 'my bit'.


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## Rorschach (30 Jan 2021)

Owd Jockey said:


> Just back from my second day shift at a local vaccination centre in Shrewsbury as a NHS Volunteer, i've had two days of helping with patient flows. While there has been large queues in nearby Telford, we have had virtually no queues at all! I think it depends not only on the building and procedures you are working with but the cohorts that are receiving the jab. The last two days have been predominantly frontline staff and support workers and I was able to scour the car parks and advise people that they could simply go straight in as there was no queue. This insured the car park never filled up. It worked well and this centre was doing 400/day. A 75+ age cohort would be different though. Still we are getting there and I am proud to be doing 'my bit'.



Good man!


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## Amateur (30 Jan 2021)

NormanB said:


> That is not the reason at all.


can you correct me please.


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## doctor Bob (30 Jan 2021)

Owd Jockey said:


> Just back from my second day shift at a local vaccination centre in Shrewsbury as a NHS Volunteer, i've had two days of helping with patient flows. While there has been large queues in nearby Telford, we have had virtually no queues at all! I think it depends not only on the building and procedures you are working with but the cohorts that are receiving the jab. The last two days have been predominantly frontline staff and support workers and I was able to scour the car parks and advise people that they could simply go straight in as there was no queue. This insured the car park never filled up. It worked well and this centre was doing 400/day. A 75+ age cohort would be different though. Still we are getting there and I am proud to be doing 'my bit'.



I was so impressed with all the staff when I took my parents, it's a combined effort from the man in the car park who helped my mum and reassured her, to the people with patience who watched my Dad slowly fill out the form, the nurses and assistants, absolutely brilliant.


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## NormanB (30 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> can you correct me please.


Well to put it simply you are giving your opinion and dressing it up as a fact, when it is completely untrue.


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## NormanB (30 Jan 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> I was under the impression the hold up was supply (or specifically quality control) of vaccines. That said, though not faultless, I think the speed of vaccination so far is pretty good, beating most, aside from israel


We have more vaccinating capacity than the supply chain can support at the time of writing.


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## NormanB (30 Jan 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> saw an article on this the other day, apparantly, especially with the pfizer vac (which has the whole storage issue with temperature), if vaccines are left over at the end of a day / session, they could easily have to be thrown out, so in fact it could well be in everyone's interest to take a vaccine if you are offered it.
> 
> My local GP surgery has awful admin staff (not just a recent thing, I completely appreciate that there is a lot of added strain right now), my mother in her late 70s has been waiting patiently to be contacted about her jab, her neighbour in her early 70s has been phoned already, when my mother phoned up to find out what was happening she was told she'd been phoned several times and messages were left, pure fiction. Similarly, I'm shielding, and so should be getting a jab now, again, nothing. I take some comfort in the fact that the number that have had the vaccine is rapidly increasing, so at least the much fabled herd immunity is eventually starting to happen


When they make the call it is entered in the clinical record request a copy of those entries. It may also be very well worth checking what phone number they have in the record for your mum.

From the information you provided you are in Priority Group 5 and as far as I am aware (have not checked for a couple of days) they have not started calling this group forward yet.


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## Terry - Somerset (30 Jan 2021)

Germany will not give the AZ vaccine to those over 65

France thinks AZ may be only 10% effective

Macron and Merkel have now also learned from Facetwitter that it does work but for only 6 months.

Fortunately they have as yet failed to realise that the microchips seeded in each batch of vaccines are also programmed by Bill Gates personally to fail on 31st December - an inbulit millenium  year end bug.

You read it hear first so it must be true!


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## Garno (31 Jan 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Germany will not give the AZ vaccine to those over 65
> 
> France thinks AZ may be only 10% effective
> 
> ...



Don't care I'm still having one today


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## Robbo60 (31 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I thought we had surpassed 500k a day, or was that a one off push for the media's benefit?


Cynicism is a really negative thing. Figures last night were 480,000 for day before


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## Rorschach (31 Jan 2021)

Robbo60 said:


> Cynicism is a really negative thing. Figures last night were 480,000 for day before



I'd love to be less cynical and maybe one day the world will give me the opportunity to do so


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## Robbo60 (31 Jan 2021)

Always be a pessimist - then you're never disappointed.


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## Amateur (31 Jan 2021)

NormanB said:


> Well to put it simply you are giving your opinion and dressing it up as a fact, when it is completely untrue.




The manufacturers are unable to demonstrate the length of time the vaccine is effective.

More stock has been ordered if it needs repeating.


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## Amateur (31 Jan 2021)

I read now so many developments being made on a weekly basis I'm just wondering when the first flu/ covid single jab will be announced?


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## jcassidy (31 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> The manufacturers are unable to demonstrate the length of time the vaccine is effective.



I just thinks it's important to note that the virus has only been around for a year, and the first trials started 4 months ago(?).

Suggesting what level of protection would be available after 6 months is only a theory which must be backed up by evidence, which we won't have until 6 months have passed. This is why drug trials typically last 5, 8, or 10 years. You can't licence a drug based on unproven theoretical results. Obviously the rules are relaxed when it's for a disease that's killing everyone (e.g. Ebola) or is destroying the economy (e.g. C19). 

I for one hope, if the immune response is not long-term, that the current vaccination campaign will suppress the disease and this doesn't become an annual or bi-annual shot!


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## NormanB (31 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> The manufacturers are unable to demonstrate the length of time the vaccine is effective.
> 
> More stock has been ordered if it needs repeating.



As outstanding as your comment is, it is a statement of the blindingly obvious. It is impossible to know until time has passed and events have happened.

’More stock’ has not been ordered for repeat doses per se. The Vaccine task force effectively placed speculative orders on the understanding that some of the orders would not be fulfilled due to a failure to develop a patent vaccine. In fact there is no guarantee than any of the developers would be successful.

So, on paper, we have half a dozen orders in for approved vaccines and vaccines awaiting approval. These are all on different delivery schedules throughout 2020 and into 2021 and will ensure the UK vaccination programme is achieved with a substantial excess of orders ‘surplus to requirements’ at the end of that programme.

What happens to the excess stocks depends on events, time and data. If the data suggests prolonged protection from the 2 complete dose vaccination for all of the vaccines then there may no need to repeat the programme. If that is the case, then the excess stocks will be sent to other countries, possibly under the COVAX scheme. However, events have yet to happen and there is a risk that a new mutation that defeats the currently used vaccines emerge and presents a new threat. So everyone has to start again with a tweaked vaccine (which can be done relatively quickly ‘a couple of months’) and then a new round of batch production and a new vaccination programme begins. That being said events will dictate what happens to the UK’s ‘spare vaccines’ - the worst case is they may have to be destroyed, let’s hope that is not the case.


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## NormanB (31 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> I read now so many developments being made on a weekly basis I'm just wondering when the first flu/ covid single jab will be announced?


Most unlikely.


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## Amateur (31 Jan 2021)

Viruses like flu mutate every year. The health organisations monitor the changes and sit down and make the best stab at which vaccine will be needed with the monitored results/ evidence. They don't always get it right because it's a moving target.
If covid proved to be similar I see no reason why a yearly jab won't be introduced and probably combined with the annual flu jab.
But we are a long way off that stage yet.


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## Amateur (31 Jan 2021)

NormanB said:


> As outstanding as your comment is, it is a statement of the blindingly obvious. It is impossible to know until time has passed and events have happened



That is one reason why the EU are in the mess they are in. Waiting. Watching.
And as full results of longevity of the vaccines could take up to ten years to properly evaluate,
I stand by my statement.
I'm sorry you don't agree or see the logic.
Therefore we will leave it at that.
Thankyou


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## NormanB (31 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> Viruses like flu mutate every year. The health organisations monitor the changes and sit down and make the best stab at which vaccine will be needed with the monitored results/ evidence. They don't always get it right because it's a moving target.
> If covid proved to be similar I see no reason why a yearly jab won't be introduced and probably combined with the annual flu jab.
> But we are a long way off that stage yet.


A combined jab is most unlikely because it would require a complete new trial, ( where tweaked, but already approved vaccines do not) the full suite of clinical trials and new approvals from the Regulators. So while on the face of it it is an attractive idea, the nature of this ‘emergency’ and the seasonality of influenza would preclude the avoiding of the considerable time and expense of tackling the combined trials and approvals.


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## Billy_wizz (31 Jan 2021)

jcassidy said:


> I just thinks it's important to note that the virus has only been around for a year, and the first trials started 4 months ago(?).
> 
> Suggesting what level of protection would be available after 6 months is only a theory which must be backed up by evidence, which we won't have until 6 months have passed. This is why drug trials typically last 5, 8, or 10 years. You can't licence a drug based on unproven theoretical results. Obviously the rules are relaxed when it's for a disease that's killing everyone (e.g. Ebola) or is destroying the economy (e.g. C19).
> 
> I for one hope, if the immune response is not long-term, that the current vaccination campaign will suppress the disease and this doesn't become an annual or bi-annual shot!


I fully expect the covid shot to become the same as the flue jab! With at risk groups offered it yearly!
The cynic in me wonders if that's as much by design as anything else!
I also find it ironic that a large number of medical advancements whilst being good for the individual that's treated increase the risk of a catastrophic event for the human race as a whole!


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## NormanB (31 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> That is one reason why the EU are in the mess they are in. Waiting. Watching.
> And as full results of longevity of the vaccines could take up to ten years to properly evaluate,
> I stand by my statement.
> I'm sorry you don't agree or see the logic.
> ...


OK - I did try but.....I will certainly stop banging my head against a brick wall.


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## Amateur (31 Jan 2021)

NormanB said:


> OK - I did try but.....I will certainly stop banging my head against a brick wall.



This is a discussion forum.
Something to CHAT about.
Share opinions
Not bang your head about.


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## Amateur (31 Jan 2021)

Billy_wizz said:


> I fully expect the covid shot to become the same as the flue jab! With at risk groups offered it yearly!
> The cynic in me wonders if that's as much by design as anything else!
> I also find it ironic that a large number of medical advancements whilst being good for the individual that's treated increase the risk of a catastrophic event for the human race as a whole!



I fully agree with you.
The head of the NHS has already said they expect to see a combined vaccination in a single shot in the future. The cost savings would be huge too for the NHS which they have to consider.


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## D_W (31 Jan 2021)

It looks like the variants find their way around the vaccine pretty quickly. The Mrs has a health care job and got second Pfizer jab Friday. She's still down for the count. There was quite a bit of smarm on the Aussie forum about how dumb the rest of us are and how smart they've been with lockdown and I had the scuffle with a few of not trying to write the article for the paper before the game is over. I still believe that. It may take a few rounds of vaccines and sickness before we have decent general immunity from most.

I'll be getting the jab here as soon as I'm allowed to, even though it doesn't have nearly as much luck with the apartheid version.


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## D_W (31 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> I fully agree with you.
> The head of the NHS has already said they expect to see a combined vaccination in a single shot in the future. The cost savings would be huge too for the NHS which they have to consider.



A single shot sounds more like a booster and less like a first go.


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## Jake (31 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> Viruses like flu mutate every year.



Flu viruses are able to mutate faster and more radically than a coronavirus because of the way their RNA is strutured.


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## Garno (31 Jan 2021)

I've been jabbed    
They also jabbed Mrs G as she is also my carer (registered as such)
We had the Pfizer vaccine.
Surprising how much they pump into you, it's a lot more than the flu jab dose.
April 18th 13:00hrs we go back for a top up.


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## Terry - Somerset (31 Jan 2021)

I would expect that scientists are very carefully looking at the data as the vaccine is rolled out to determine:

how effective it is (compared to the trials) in preventing infection
whether the level of protection degrades over time
by how much the vaccine prevents onwards virus transmission
how a second vaccine changes the level of protection
8m doses have already been given. Allowing for immunity building for 2/3 weeks after vaccination, we should be getting some preliminary answers.

Speculating on the result of this analysis is pointless - putting in place contingency plans to deal with scenarios which may emerge is the priority.

Whether the government will share the intelligence at an early stage or hold back communication until there is reasonable certainty is less clear.


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## doctor Bob (31 Jan 2021)

over 500K yesterday. Fantastic.


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## Garno (31 Jan 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> over 500K yesterday. Fantastic.



It's an amazing feat they are doing.
Where we had ours done the GP's were even helping out.
No waiting time to have it done and such a friendly atmosphere.
A massive plus to the NHS.


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## selectortone (31 Jan 2021)

Just got a text from my local surgery - booked in for next Saturday - woohoo! I must be one of the last of my group - only turned 70 three weeks ago. 

What an amazing job the NHS is doing!


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## Garno (31 Jan 2021)

selectortone said:


> Just got a text from my local surgery - booked in for next Saturday - woohoo! I must be one of the last of my group - only turned 70 three weeks ago.
> 
> What an amazing job the NHS is doing!



Fantastic news, You will feel even happier once it is in your arm


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## Nigel Burden (31 Jan 2021)

I'm not 70 until September, but because my wife is a care worker her employers are keen to get spouses and household family members vaccinated, so I am to be booked in at The Royal Bournemouth Hospital some time next week.

Nigel.


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## Rorschach (31 Jan 2021)

Just a few short of 600k yesterday!


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## doctor Bob (31 Jan 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Just a few short of 600k yesterday!


Correct, my figure didn't include scotland and NI, absolutely amazing.
I see as well second doses are ramping up.


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## MusicMan (31 Jan 2021)

My wife and I (80+) have had both Pfizer jabs, the second one just after the policy change but before it was implemented. In Warwick the local GPs have grouped together and set up an extremely efficient centre at a local golf course. Well distanced, quick and no waiting.


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## MikeJhn (31 Jan 2021)

Garno said:


> I've been jabbed
> They also jabbed Mrs G as she is also my carer (registered as such)
> We had the Pfizer vaccine.
> Surprising how much they pump into you, it's a lot more than the flu jab dose.
> April 18th 13:00hrs we go back for a top up.


Had mine this morning and was surprised how little they pumped into my arm, never had the flu Jab so can't compare, my second is on the 18th also at 09:30, your not in Kent at Harrietsham by chance?


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## marksupnorth (1 Feb 2021)

Beautifully said, NormanB!


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## TRITON (1 Feb 2021)

Robbo60 said:


> Always be a pessimist - then you're never disappointed.


Are you optomistic about your chances of being a pessimist ?.


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## Flartybarty (1 Feb 2021)

500000 in a day is pretty good. I'm 76 and live in France and was supposed to get a letter from my doctor last week but so far - nada. I can, however, make an appt using the web page but would prefer to wait until my OH is able to do likewise - she's 71. in the meantime I remain indoors as much as poss - fortunately with a large garden.


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## TRITON (1 Feb 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Had mine this morning and was surprised how little they pumped into my arm, never had the flu Jab so can't compare, my second is on the 18th also at 09:30, your not in Kent at Harrietsham by chance?


If when you switch on your computer it says 'Searching for new hardware' Just ignore it, it's probably not important.


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## Ditch 08 (1 Feb 2021)

What is happening now, today in the UK, no the whole world is the result of years of dedication by an organization we hold dear to our harts, the NHS in the UK and Hospitals around the world. Using the limited recourses they have at their disposal they are out there day on day producing medical miracles. Looking at the Staff of the NHS is something we in the UK should be and are proud off. But are we abusing them and the service? In my view we are, not all of us but there are those out there are. The ones that say they will not have the vaccine, the ones that say this is a hoax. How are they helping? 

So what are we the simple people suppose to do, take it or not. What are the implications if we all say no? should we say don't take, then if you become ill you cannot us the NHS? (bit like saying got cancer and you smoke sorry no can treat). Hard but should we be saying this whilst the NHS is at what we are told is at its limit?

We have "clever" people (the bad evil ones in China) that have managed to create something that will kill you and me, and they have released it on the world. We then have other "clever" people (the good ones everyone else) who are trying to work out how it can be stopped. Is this something from Hollywood (if it was then all the good ones would talk with American accents)?.

Flippant may be but when will we see the trees? 

The simple thing we have all to remember is that we a dying in large numbers because of some illness periportally from China.


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## Amateur (1 Feb 2021)

Despite being ridiculed for suggesting the UK was forward buying for future winter jabs, it transpires that in today's news Britain is preparing for 40 million extra doses of Valnevas vaccine. We won't get it till 2020 and it's made in Scotland.


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## Blackswanwood (1 Feb 2021)

Ditch 08 said:


> What is happening now, today in the UK, no the whole world is the result of years of dedication by an organization we hold dear to our harts, the NHS in the UK and Hospitals around the world. Using the limited recourses they have at their disposal they are out there day on day producing medical miracles. Looking at the Staff of the NHS is something we in the UK should be and are proud off. But are we abusing them and the service? In my view we are, not all of us but there are those out there are. The ones that say they will not have the vaccine, the ones that say this is a hoax. How are they helping?
> 
> So what are we the simple people suppose to do, take it or not. What are the implications if we all say no? should we say don't take, then if you become ill you cannot us the NHS? (bit like saying got cancer and you smoke sorry no can treat). Hard but should we be saying this whilst the NHS is at what we are told is at its limit?
> 
> ...


Excuse my ignorance but what does periportally mean? It seems to be a medical term relating to the liver?


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## artie (1 Feb 2021)

Ditch 08 said:


> Hard but should we be saying this whilst the NHS is at what we are told is at its limit?


Don't you recall, the NHS has been at it's limit every winter for years.
Headlines year after year, patients in corridors on beds o dear. doom and gloom.
NI health minister has returned 90 million to the treasury rather than spend it.
What does that say?


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## Blackswanwood (1 Feb 2021)

Oh dear - I fear what started as a positive thread is starting to follow the usual C19 path!


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## Vann (1 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> ...I am also fortunate in that I do not have to travel far as again I believe some people are having to travel long distances to get theirs.


Yup, thousands of miles - we don't have any vaccines here in New Zealand yet. IIRC the first shipments are due in March.

Even then I'll feel guilty. There are so many countries that need it more than we do.


jcassidy said:


> I just thinks it's important to note that the virus has only been around for a year, and the first trials started 4 months ago(?).
> 
> Suggesting what level of protection would be available after 6 months...


Yes, it'll be interesting to see how long protection lasts, and whether the virus mutates sufficiently to circumvent some vaccines.

Britain is coming across as being probably the most efficient country with regard to distributing the vaccines. Well done.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Nigel Burden (1 Feb 2021)

It appears that we now have the South African mutation in the SE of England, (BBC News), but indications are that the vaccines will have some effect on it.

Nigel.


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## Rorschach (1 Feb 2021)

Good job really otherwise we are wasting our time.


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## Droogs (1 Feb 2021)

Just had a call from the docs to say I'm getting mine on Wednesday at half four. No idea which one


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## Garno (1 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> Just had a call from the docs to say I'm getting mine on Wednesday at half four. No idea which one



That's wonderful news Droogs


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## Jonm (1 Feb 2021)

Jake said:


> Flu viruses are able to mutate faster and more radically than a coronavirus because of the way their RNA is strutured.


As I understand it the current variant across most of Europe is different to the original from Wuhan. Then we have the more infectious/deadly UK variant and South African variant. There have been others. To me it seems it can mutate plenty quickly enough to make itself more dangerous.


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## doctor Bob (1 Feb 2021)

CountriesPeople vaccinatedTotal populationPercentageGibraltar12,86634,57137.22%​Israel3,006,6338,712,00034.51%​The United Arab Emirates3,084,1629,400,00032.81%​The Seychelles30,86195,84332.20%​Samoa8,92655,46516.09%​The United-Kingdom8,977,32966,650,00013.47%​Bahrein170,4331,493,00011.42%​The United-States of America25,201,143327,200,0007.70%​Isle of Man6,19284,2877.35%​Marshall Islands3,76358,4136.44%​Serbia437,3807,022,0006.23%​Malta22,853493,5594.63%​Bermuda2,93265,4404.48%​Denmark186,7625,603,0003.33%​Switzerland262,0818,570,0003.06%​Ireland147,7004,830,0003.06%​Romania585,21819,530,0003.00%​Iceland10,702364,2602.94%​Finland144,5205,513,0002.62%​Portugal268,38610,280,0002.61%​Spain1,222,32346,940,0002.60%​Slovenia52,9422,067,0002.56%​Lituania71,3232,794,0002.55%​Poland958,45337,970,0002.52%​Canada937,33837,590,0002.49%​Turkey1,986,23780,810,0002.46%​Belgium270,74011,460,0002.36%​Slovakia124,7745,450,0002.29%​Sweden230,06810,120,0002.27%​Hungary222,0059,773,0002.27%​Germany1,855,45782,790,0002.24%​Italy1,340,82460,480,0002.22%​France1,479,90966,990,0002.21%​Czech Republic230,46610,650,0002.16%​Greece230,51810,740,0002.15%​Estonia27,9001,328,0002.10%​Austria185,2918,822,0002.10%​Singapore113,0005,621,0002.01%​Norway100,3435,368,0001.87%​Cyprus19,6171,170,0001.68%​Luxembourg9,890602,0051.64%​China22,767,0001,386,000,0001.64%​Croatia58,0774,076,0001.42%​Latvia23,4001,920,0001.22%​Saudi Arabia391,64332,940,0001.19%​The Netherlands176,28617,180,0001.03%​Brazil2,046,523209,500,0000.98%​Costa Rica45,7074,906,0000.93%​Russia1,000,000144,500,0000.69%​Argentina281,02344,270,0000.63%​Oman24,7734,636,0000.53%​Mexico630,820129,200,0000.49%​Bulgaria27,9577,050,0000.40%​Chile56,77118,050,0000.31%​India3,744,3341,339,000,0000.28%​Morocco90,00035,740,0000.25%​Indonesia493,133264,000,0000.19%​Sri Lanka37,82521,440,0000.18%​Panama6,4204,099,0000.16%​Koweit2,5004,137,0000.06%​Ecuador2,98216,620,0000.02%​Myanmar3,80055,901,0000.01%​Guinea2512,720,0000.00%​Algeria3041,320,0000.00%​


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## Droogs (1 Feb 2021)

I wonder who the lucky 30 are in Algeria? Probably the cabinet and their mistresses


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## Owd Jockey (2 Feb 2021)

After 4 consecutive days of volunteering at a local Vaccination, i'm taking a day off. I should say that the majority of citizens receiving the vaccine have been 'young' (under 30 ish). These are support workers in the NHS and the other myriad of other social support agencies groups across the country. We probably had just 1 or 2 over 80's coming through during the day. A new local Vaccination centre opens today at Telford United's football ground.

The news yesterday from Israel that the effects of their vaccine programme maybe beginning to show in infection rates, offers another ray of hope. I think and hope it may now only be a matter of weeks before we can begin diverting some of our vaccines through the Covax scheme to the poorer countries. 

The Police occasionally drive through the car park, I suspect, in case there are any anti-vacc protestors. Apparently there was a small group that turned up outside back in December, but dispersed after a short while when the police turned up. All of the people that I speak to, reflect the opinions on this thread in being glad to receive the vacc to protect themselves and help end this terrible situation.

Anyway, there is a particularly 'punky' piece of spalted Alder sitting on the lathe with my name on it, that's just crying out to be turned into a small trinket box....we shall see.......take care, stay safe.


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## Jonm (2 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> I wonder who the lucky 30 are in Algeria? Probably the cabinet and their mistresses


Apparently the president is in Germany being treated for Covid related illness. They have just started the vaccination programme.









Algeria - BBC News


All the latest news about Algeria from the BBC



www.bbc.co.uk


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## Ozi (2 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Despite being ridiculed for suggesting the UK was forward buying for future winter jabs, it transpires that in today's news Britain is preparing for 40 million extra doses of Valnevas vaccine. We won't get it till 2020 and it's made in Scotland.


Personally I agree with you that they may be buying for future winter jabs, we don't know if they are needed, we don't know the longevity of immune response (although evidence is building) but if they were to be needed and no future plans had been put in place plenty of us would be criticizing from the perspective of hindsight.


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## Ozi (2 Feb 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> CountriesPeople vaccinatedTotal populationPercentageGibraltar12,86634,57137.22%​Israel3,006,6338,712,00034.51%​The United Arab Emirates3,084,1629,400,00032.81%​The Seychelles30,86195,84332.20%​Samoa8,92655,46516.09%​The United-Kingdom8,977,32966,650,00013.47%​Bahrein170,4331,493,00011.42%​The United-States of America25,201,143327,200,0007.70%​Isle of Man6,19284,2877.35%​Marshall Islands3,76358,4136.44%​Serbia437,3807,022,0006.23%​Malta22,853493,5594.63%​Bermuda2,93265,4404.48%​Denmark186,7625,603,0003.33%​Switzerland262,0818,570,0003.06%​Ireland147,7004,830,0003.06%​Romania585,21819,530,0003.00%​Iceland10,702364,2602.94%​Finland144,5205,513,0002.62%​Portugal268,38610,280,0002.61%​Spain1,222,32346,940,0002.60%​Slovenia52,9422,067,0002.56%​Lituania71,3232,794,0002.55%​Poland958,45337,970,0002.52%​Canada937,33837,590,0002.49%​Turkey1,986,23780,810,0002.46%​Belgium270,74011,460,0002.36%​Slovakia124,7745,450,0002.29%​Sweden230,06810,120,0002.27%​Hungary222,0059,773,0002.27%​Germany1,855,45782,790,0002.24%​Italy1,340,82460,480,0002.22%​France1,479,90966,990,0002.21%​Czech Republic230,46610,650,0002.16%​Greece230,51810,740,0002.15%​Estonia27,9001,328,0002.10%​Austria185,2918,822,0002.10%​Singapore113,0005,621,0002.01%​Norway100,3435,368,0001.87%​Cyprus19,6171,170,0001.68%​Luxembourg9,890602,0051.64%​China22,767,0001,386,000,0001.64%​Croatia58,0774,076,0001.42%​Latvia23,4001,920,0001.22%​Saudi Arabia391,64332,940,0001.19%​The Netherlands176,28617,180,0001.03%​Brazil2,046,523209,500,0000.98%​Costa Rica45,7074,906,0000.93%​Russia1,000,000144,500,0000.69%​Argentina281,02344,270,0000.63%​Oman24,7734,636,0000.53%​Mexico630,820129,200,0000.49%​Bulgaria27,9577,050,0000.40%​Chile56,77118,050,0000.31%​India3,744,3341,339,000,0000.28%​Morocco90,00035,740,0000.25%​Indonesia493,133264,000,0000.19%​Sri Lanka37,82521,440,0000.18%​Panama6,4204,099,0000.16%​Koweit2,5004,137,0000.06%​Ecuador2,98216,620,0000.02%​Myanmar3,80055,901,0000.01%​Guinea2512,720,0000.00%​Algeria3041,320,0000.00%​


Thank you for posting that it really shows what a long way we still have to go. As richer countries we are going to have to keep up the effort and support poorer countries with their vaccination programs even if just from self interest. Every infected person is an opportunity for the virus to mutate. Just as our Victorian ancestors built sewage systems for the poor to keep cholera out of rich areas we need to get this virus under control globally, our best hope is that it ends up like the 1918 flue virus, still with us still killing but at a level we can cope with. Not trying to be cynical, many people will help out of human decency but this is going to cost big money.


----------



## Ozi (2 Feb 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> CountriesPeople vaccinatedTotal populationPercentageGibraltar12,86634,57137.22%​Israel3,006,6338,712,00034.51%​The United Arab Emirates3,084,1629,400,00032.81%​The Seychelles30,86195,84332.20%​Samoa8,92655,46516.09%​The United-Kingdom8,977,32966,650,00013.47%​Bahrein170,4331,493,00011.42%​The United-States of America25,201,143327,200,0007.70%​Isle of Man6,19284,2877.35%​Marshall Islands3,76358,4136.44%​Serbia437,3807,022,0006.23%​Malta22,853493,5594.63%​Bermuda2,93265,4404.48%​Denmark186,7625,603,0003.33%​Switzerland262,0818,570,0003.06%​Ireland147,7004,830,0003.06%​Romania585,21819,530,0003.00%​Iceland10,702364,2602.94%​Finland144,5205,513,0002.62%​Portugal268,38610,280,0002.61%​Spain1,222,32346,940,0002.60%​Slovenia52,9422,067,0002.56%​Lituania71,3232,794,0002.55%​Poland958,45337,970,0002.52%​Canada937,33837,590,0002.49%​Turkey1,986,23780,810,0002.46%​Belgium270,74011,460,0002.36%​Slovakia124,7745,450,0002.29%​Sweden230,06810,120,0002.27%​Hungary222,0059,773,0002.27%​Germany1,855,45782,790,0002.24%​Italy1,340,82460,480,0002.22%​France1,479,90966,990,0002.21%​Czech Republic230,46610,650,0002.16%​Greece230,51810,740,0002.15%​Estonia27,9001,328,0002.10%​Austria185,2918,822,0002.10%​Singapore113,0005,621,0002.01%​Norway100,3435,368,0001.87%​Cyprus19,6171,170,0001.68%​Luxembourg9,890602,0051.64%​China22,767,0001,386,000,0001.64%​Croatia58,0774,076,0001.42%​Latvia23,4001,920,0001.22%​Saudi Arabia391,64332,940,0001.19%​The Netherlands176,28617,180,0001.03%​Brazil2,046,523209,500,0000.98%​Costa Rica45,7074,906,0000.93%​Russia1,000,000144,500,0000.69%​Argentina281,02344,270,0000.63%​Oman24,7734,636,0000.53%​Mexico630,820129,200,0000.49%​Bulgaria27,9577,050,0000.40%​Chile56,77118,050,0000.31%​India3,744,3341,339,000,0000.28%​Morocco90,00035,740,0000.25%​Indonesia493,133264,000,0000.19%​Sri Lanka37,82521,440,0000.18%​Panama6,4204,099,0000.16%​Koweit2,5004,137,0000.06%​Ecuador2,98216,620,0000.02%​Myanmar3,80055,901,0000.01%​Guinea2512,720,0000.00%​Algeria3041,320,0000.00%​


Took a peak - beautiful things your making there, out of my price range unfortunately


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## Ditch 08 (2 Feb 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Excuse my ignorance but what does periportally mean? It seems to be a medical term relating to the liver?


bad spelling


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## Ditch 08 (2 Feb 2021)

Ozi said:


> Thank you for posting that it really shows what a long way we still have to go. As richer countries we are going to have to keep up the effort and support poorer countries with their vaccination programs even if just from self interest. Every infected person is an opportunity for the virus to mutate. Just as our Victorian ancestors built sewage systems for the poor to keep cholera out of rich areas we need to get this virus under control globally, our best hope is that it ends up like the 1918 flue virus, still with us still killing but at a level we can cope with. Not trying to be cynical, many people will help out of human decency but this is going to cost big money.


Well said. This is world wide not rich country based or political, so lets start asking, with please and thankyou's, and what can we do's. Like a great man once said Ask what can I do for my world, not what can the world do for me.


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## ivan (2 Feb 2021)

Wife and I had ours 10 days ago. Local (rural) GPs got together for mass jabs at relatively nearby sport centre and sent out invites. Pfizer frozen jabs - they are being used only at big centres as must defrost big batch at a time. Well organised, car in and out separated, and socially distanced (the carloads too), and inside 6 -7 lanes leading to 6-7 jab teams. Even had dedicated "fill in finder" on the phone, making sure any unused doses finished up in someones arm. Nurse said only about 30 had not turned up before our turn at 6pm. Mid 70's: felt OK for 2 days, and then muscularly knackered, just wearing off, and all joints aching like lousy flu, but with out actually feeling "ill". Wife is shielding, so b***y glad to get it. We didn't see it but anti vac protesers were outside most of the day on and off they said, (no local police), but eventually they moved them on. Should prosecute for causing public harm.


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## Terry - Somerset (2 Feb 2021)

The belief that individual wealthy nations will materially deny its own citizens a vaccine in favour of others less fortunate is plain naive. Vaccine nationalism exists, and pronouncements by WHO or other worthies will not change public opinion.

The best nations will ensure that vaccines excess to their potential needs will freely distribute them based upon need, the less principled with distribute them based upon political advantage.

Am I being cynical or realistic??


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## Amateur (2 Feb 2021)

I wonder if the disadvantaged and those at the margins of society will ever be vaccinated?


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## Ozi (2 Feb 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The belief that individual wealthy nations will materially deny its own citizens a vaccine in favour of others less fortunate is plain naive. Vaccine nationalism exists, and pronouncements by WHO or other worthies will not change public opinion.
> 
> The best nations will ensure that vaccines excess to their potential needs will freely distribute them based upon need, the less principled with distribute them based upon political advantage.
> 
> Am I being cynical or realistic??


Realistic, it would be political suicide and I'm as selfish as the next person we have a national health service not an international health service but we need to spread the understanding that the jobs not over if we are all vaccinated. We cannot afford an endless succession of new variants and constant vaccine tweaks.


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## Rorschach (2 Feb 2021)

@Terry - Somerset I think the people saying vaccinate other countries before us, or promoting some kind of shared rollout are very much in a minority. The majority of the population want the vaccines that were paid for with their tax money. Vaccination could be a big part of foreign aid spending in the net few years though I think.

Speaking personally as someone who doesn't see the benefit of a vaccine for me I would gladly see it sent to an vulnerable person abroad, though I suspect the practicality of doing so would be unfeasible.


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## Ozi (2 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> @Terry - Somerset I think the people saying vaccinate other countries before us, or promoting some kind of shared rollout are very much in a minority. The majority of the population want the vaccines that were paid for with their tax money. Vaccination could be a big part of foreign aid spending in the net few years though I think.
> 
> Speaking personally as someone who doesn't see the benefit of a vaccine for me I would gladly see it sent to an vulnerable person abroad, though I suspect the practicality of doing so would be unfeasible.


Everybody who can be vaccinated should be even if young and fit you can still catch it, may be without symptoms and spread it. A friend of mine whose 50 had it and considers himself lucky to be alive, when they put him in the ambulance I honestly didn't expect to see him again. I think I may have had it as I got the discolored and blistered toes before I knew that could be a symptom, just hope I didn't spread it to anybody. When you get the chance I would urge you to take it I shall as will my family.


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## Rorschach (2 Feb 2021)

Ozi said:


> Everybody who can be vaccinated should be even if young and fit you can still catch it, may be without symptoms and spread it. A friend of mine whose 50 had it and considers himself lucky to be alive, when they put him in the ambulance I honestly didn't expect to see him again. I think I may have had it as I got the discolored and blistered toes before I knew that could be a symptom, just hope I didn't spread it to anybody. When you get the chance I would urge you to take it I shall as will my family.



If the vaccination stops transmission I will have it, but at the moment they say it doesn't.


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## Rorschach (2 Feb 2021)

Good news on the Sputnik vaccine as well today, the last thing we needed was a load Russians going around with an ineffective vaccination.


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## NormanB (2 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If the vaccination stops transmission I will have it, but at the moment they say it doesn't.


In the interest of accuracy, they cannot say that the vaccine will stop transmission because time and events have yet to happen, before sufficient data that is statically significant, is accumulated. Then they can put a number on it, but it is most unlikely to be 100%.


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## Rorschach (2 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> In the interest of accuracy, they cannot say that the vaccine will stop transmission because time and events have yet to happen, before sufficient data that is statically significant, is accumulated. Then they can put a number on it, but it is most unlikely to be 100%.



Yes I understand that, hence why I said "at the moment". If the information changes then my opinion will change to suit.


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## John Brown (2 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> @Terry - Somerset I think the people saying vaccinate other countries before us, or promoting some kind of shared rollout are very much in a minority. The majority of the population want the vaccines that were paid for with their tax money. Vaccination could be a big part of foreign aid spending in the net few years though I think.
> 
> Speaking personally as someone who doesn't see the benefit of a vaccine for me I would gladly see it sent to an vulnerable person abroad, though I suspect the practicality of doing so would be unfeasible.


Why don't you see any benefit if having the vaccine? Genuine question...


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## selectortone (2 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If the vaccination stops transmission I will have it, but at the moment they say it doesn't.


I'd be more inclined to follow NHS advice and have the jab if they asked me to. They seem to know what they're doing.

Edit: Astra-Zeneca have published findings that show that their vaccine reduces transmission by 67%:

_"The authors also report further on the potential for the vaccine to reduce transmission of the virus, based on swabs obtained from volunteers in the UK arms of the trial with a 67% reduction after the first dose of the vaccine."_









Oxford coronavirus vaccine shows sustained protection of 76% during the 3-month interval until the second dose | University of Oxford


Analyses reveal single standard dose efficacy from day 22 to day 90 post vaccination of 76% with protection not falling in this three-month periodAfter the second dose vaccine efficacy from two standard doses is 82.4% with the 3-month interval being used in the UK. (82.4% effective, with a 95%...




www.ox.ac.uk


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## NormanB (2 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Yes I understand that, hence why I said "at the moment". If the information changes then my opinion will change to suit.


It just has.
Well just heard on TV news the excellent results about OxAZ vaccine being effective in stopping transmission throughout the period after the 1st dose - 76% and that this totally backs up use of 12 weeks delay on giving 2nd vaccine - lovely news especially after the badmouthing from various EU countries.

Oops - I mistyped should have said protection not transmission mea culpa.


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## Nick Laguna UK (2 Feb 2021)

I don't profess to be an expert on the ins and outs of all this, but do know that we are relieved our 20 year old daughter who has Down's Syndrome is booked in this Friday morning for her jab - we got the call today.
In my view, fair play to the efficiency of this rollout and full credit to the scientists who have been working on this.
She is classed as extremely vulnerable as the stats for adults with Down's have been very concerning for us.
Although we've all been v careful in our household, I know I'm the weakest link going out to get food shopping / go to work when needed etc.
I'll feel a lot happier in 4 weeks when she has some level of protection.


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## Rorschach (2 Feb 2021)

John Brown said:


> Why don't you see any benefit if having the vaccine? Genuine question...



My chances of dying from the virus are basically nil, my chances of getting seriously ill are tiny, I have also likely been exposed (highly likely now it seems but not definite as no testing at the time). The only benefit would be to prevent transmission which there isn't evidence for at the moment. Since I have had a bad (ongoing) reaction to a vaccination in the past I think on balance there is little point in me being vaccinated. As I said, if the information changes then I will re-think it.


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## Garno (2 Feb 2021)

That's wonderful news @Nick Laguna UK , they will probably do the whole household if asked, certainly worth asking.


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## Nick Laguna UK (2 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> That's wonderful news @Nick Laguna UK , they will probably do the whole household if asked, certainly worth asking.


Thanks Garno, our view is we are likely to be OK on probabilities, and I'm not sure we can even request that - her brother is 10 and her sister 16, both fit as fiddles and myself and M are in decent shape for our age - despite me still smoking - but it's really been our eldest that has been our massive concern - I'd rather others who are also vulnerable like her get the jab before us. Our time will come at some point I'm sure. Thanks again and stay well too.


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## Jake (3 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> As I understand it the current variant across most of Europe is different to the original from Wuhan. Then we have the more infectious/deadly UK variant and South African variant. There have been others. To me it seems it can mutate plenty quickly enough to make itself more dangerous.



Covid is drifting, yes of course it mutates, there are thousands of slightly different variations. The UK, Brazil and SA ones are the most dramatic but they are actually very small changes in parts of the spike protein. 

The flu (A type, that causes pandemics) can just swop whole segments around by mixing in a cell infected with another flu virus, which is much more difficult to deal with.







They are actually trialling a universal flu vaccine which trains the immune system to recognise the 'stalk' which is apparently more stable.


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## Droogs (3 Feb 2021)

Well I got the AZ vaccine in and out in about 4 minutes. Just a little bit of an ache in my shoulder. Kind of like you slept on it funny other than that ok so shall see over the next 48 hrs.


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## Noel (3 Feb 2021)

Mod talk:
Over the past few days the mod team have had to


Droogs said:


> Well I got the AZ vaccine in and out in about 4 minutes. Just a little bit of an ache in my shoulder. Kind of like you slept on it funny other than that ok so shall see over the next 48 hrs.




4 mins Droogs? Thought you had to sit around for 15 mins in case of adverse reaction?
PS- perhaps you were referring to the actual pointy sharp stabbing bit.


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## Droogs (3 Feb 2021)

no no
not counting the sit in the waiting chair (~6 mins) was in the room asked if I had had a test or had symptoms at all in last fortnight. Then quick run down of the possible side effects and how long for 70/75% efficacy - 3 weeks and then told when I get 2nd should have around 90/95%. told to still take usual precautions while the nurse stabbed me. Ask if I wanted to go out the back door as it was closer to the house and off I went. I live about 80 feet from the surgery.


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## Noel (3 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> no no
> not counting the sit in the waiting chair (~6 mins) was in the room asked if I had had a test or had symptoms at all in last fortnight. Then quick run down of the possible side effects and how long for 70/75% efficacy - 3 weeks and then told when I get 2nd should have around 90/95%. told to still take usual precautions while the nurse stabbed me. Ask if I wanted to go out the back door as it was closer to the house and off I went. I live about 80 feet from the surgery.



Ah, ok.
You getting dose 2 in 21 days or on the long finger? Pfizer or AZ/Ox?


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## Droogs (3 Feb 2021)

Ages away for 2nd dose. Was told anything up to 12 weeks ie 28 Apr is possible, they will let me know.
I got the OAZ


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## Droogs (3 Feb 2021)

How is the roleout on your side of the dreechet puddle Noel, are you guys having supply probs like a lot of other stuff or is that going ok?


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## doctor Bob (3 Feb 2021)

10 million plus


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## Noel (3 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> How is the roleout on your side of the dreechet puddle Noel, are you guys having supply probs like a lot of other stuff or is that going ok?




Nurse in the family and she had her 2nd Pfizer dose a few days ago, noticed that dose 2 left her arm a bit more sore than dose 1 but otherwise all ok. I think all health/social care workers have been done along with a good share of older and the vulnerable. Vax stat head lines not such a big thing. Maybe because we've a few others things going on (NI Proto, shootings and a bit of paramilitary discontent, usual stuff).
Supply is from GB (don't tell BJ), been a few examples of cancelled deliveries and some vax stations running short but overall rollout and take up seems good.


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## artie (3 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> Then quick run down of the possible side effects and how long for 70/75% efficacy


If you wouldn't mind just telling me. Did they tell you that it is experimental and then advise you of possible side effects?

No need for anyone to jump all over me. 
I would like to know.


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## Droogs (3 Feb 2021)

no experimental mentioned


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## TheUnicorn (3 Feb 2021)

Noel said:


> 4 mins Droogs? Thought you had to sit around for 15 mins in case of adverse reaction?
> PS- perhaps you were referring to the actual pointy sharp stabbing bit.


I had my 1st jab today (oxford astrozenica) , very quick process, less than ten minutes, was told I could go straight away, unless I was driving, in which case I should wait 15 mins. Seems a bit reckless really in hindsight, if I'd walked straight off and then gone into anaphylactic shock 10 minutes later, I'd be a mile away from any help? Anyway, glad to say I had no problems whatsoever, drove home after my 15 minutes, no sore arm or muscle aches etc etc,


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## RobinBHM (3 Feb 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> 10 million plus


Your monthly salary.....


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## RobinBHM (3 Feb 2021)

I found out today my niece who is 24 had her jab a couple of weeks ago.

She is an NHS radiographer at Brighton trust.

She was telling me earlier Jan has been awful, her job has been dealing only with Covid patients, mostly in ICU.

She does regular CT scans on them, it's to identify phneumonia spots on the lungs.
It's not just the very frail and very elderly, she was saying there's a fair percentage of people in their 40s 50s 60s too.

I'm not trying to make any point other than: please stay vigilant everybody for this last stretch.


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## Rorschach (4 Feb 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> if I'd walked straight off and then gone into anaphylactic shock 10 minutes later, I'd be a mile away from any help?



And here's me thinking I was a fast walker!


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## workshopted (4 Feb 2021)

I had the Oxford version of the vaccine a few days ago and I've developed an insatiable appetite for banana fritters... Sigh!


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## D_W (4 Feb 2021)

I was about to come this thread last week and say this or that about how slow our vaccine rollout is because we haven't been able to spin through the tiers in every state as fast as we'd like. But I saw last week that our rate is 1.3MM shots per day. In my estimation, that's still too slow, but a lot more shots than I'd have guessed. 

Also, the news in our area is that nobody can get a shot unless they're a front line worker or nursing home resident, but both of my parents are vaccinated, as are my inlaws (they're not in homes) and I met a couple of people yesterday who were scheduled who were older but not meeting the tier one criteria. The news is just fatalistic here. 

"only 38% of care home workers taking vaccine". 

Read a little further at the end, the trump administration (certainly not trump, but people working for his admin) made a rule for private pharmacies administering shots here that they have to go to each location 3 times. Not because you need 3 shots, but because they figured after the first shot, people who were waiting to see what happened to others would get the shot the second time, and the third would wrap up everyone getting both shots at a given location. 

Great, so what's the rate of uptake on the first and second shot so far? 38 becomes 80%. But that's only told at the very end after the touting of the 38% number at the beginning and obligatory waste of space interviewing people who aren't getting the shot to get the schadenfreude ammo (or to put it another way- get the dumbest answers out of the group and publish them so people can feel good about themselves "at least I'm not as dumb as that guy!!!". Reaction porn)


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## Garno (4 Feb 2021)

D_W said:


> I was about to come this thread last week and say this or that about how slow our vaccine rollout is because we haven't been able to spin through the tiers in every state as fast as we'd like. But I saw last week that our rate is 1.3MM shots per day. In my estimation, that's still too slow, but a lot more shots than I'd have guessed.
> 
> Also, the news in our area is that nobody can get a shot unless they're a front line worker or nursing home resident, but both of my parents are vaccinated, as are my inlaws (they're not in homes) and I met a couple of people yesterday who were scheduled who were older but not meeting the tier one criteria. The news is just fatalistic here.
> 
> ...



This is not meant as a dig at anyone but I genuinely do not understand why anyone would not want to have the vaccine.
Myself and Mrs G are so much looking forward to having our second jab and will remain cautious.
There is no way of knowing the answer to this but I do wonder how big a part social media plays in people refusing to be vaccinated, I would hazard a guess and say it probably plays a very large part. Without social media would more people get the jab?
I don't know the percentages of people who were offered the jab and accepting it in the UK (by offered I mean those who are eligible in their own right and not those who were offered it when taking others to their appointments) I would hope it would be in the high 90's percentage wise.
I accept that nothing I say or do will convince others to have the jab and at the end of the day it is down to individual choice, what I will maintain is the fact that I do not understand the logic behind refusing it.


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## Rorschach (4 Feb 2021)

That's a big topic really and while I do not understand all reasons there are several that I can sympathise with and it certainly is not as simple as "stupid" people don't want to get it.


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## RobinBHM (4 Feb 2021)

My guess is that air travel, pubs, restaurants, public gatherings such as sports....will refuse people who have not been vaccinated.


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## Rorschach (4 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> My guess is that air travel, pubs, restaurants, public gatherings such as sports....will refuse people who have not been vaccinated.



Air travel, maybe in the short term but unlikely to last once this madness is over, the others, 100% never going to happen. Far too many chances for bad PR, invasion of privacy, not to mention to scope for fake vaccine certificates (already happening). It's also totally unnecessary.


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## artie (4 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> This is not meant as a dig at anyone but I genuinely do not understand why anyone would not want to have the vaccine.
> Myself and Mrs G are so much looking forward to having our second jab and will remain cautious.
> There is no way of knowing the answer to this but I do wonder how big a part social media plays in people refusing to be vaccinated, I would hazard a guess and say it probably plays a very large part. Without social media would more people get the jab?
> I don't know the percentages of people who were offered the jab and accepting it in the UK (by offered I mean those who are eligible in their own right and not those who were offered it when taking others to their appointments) I would hope it would be in the high 90's percentage wise.
> I accept that nothing I say or do will convince others to have the jab and at the end of the day it is down to individual choice, what I will maintain is the fact that I do not understand the logic behind refusing it.


This is not meant as a dig at anyone but I genuinely do not understand why anyone would want to have the vaccine.
Myself and Mrs A are so much looking forward to not having our second jab and will remain cautious.
There is no way of knowing the answer to this but I do wonder how big a part social media plays in people rushing to be vaccinated, I would hazard a guess and say it probably plays a very large part. Without social media would less people get the jab?
I don't know the percentages of people who were offered the jab and refused it in the UK (by offered I mean those who are eligible in their own right and not those who were offered it when taking others to their appointments) I would hope it would be in the high 90's percentage wise.
I accept that nothing I say or do will convince others to refuse the jab and at the end of the day it is down to individual choice, what I will maintain is the fact that I do not understand the logic behind taking it.

I hope you can just take this for what it is.

People have different opinions and I respect your right to take a vaccine I hope you will accept and support my right not to.


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## Garno (4 Feb 2021)

@artie I absolutely accept your right to not want to take the vaccine, as I also accept everyone's decision regardless of what they decide. 
I just don't understand why that is all.
My thought process is that if 100% of the population are vaccinated then the chances of dying from it are greatly reduced for everyone, I also believe that those who choose not to have the vaccination have a greater chance of contracting the Covid virus than those that have. I have no desire to contract the virus and have taken as many steps as I can to make sure I minimize that chance.
My failure to understand is a problem I shall have to live with for the rest of my life. those people who choose not to have the jab will also have to live with their decisions regardless if I or others think it is right or wrong.


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## John Brown (4 Feb 2021)

Artie wrote: "This is not meant as a dig at anyone but I genuinely do not understand why anyone would want to have the vaccine." 
I want to have it, because I believe that it will reduce the chances of my getting Covid 19, and possibly dying, but, even if I were to survive, using valuable medical resources. How on earth is that genuinely difficult to understand?


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## selectortone (4 Feb 2021)

There's a woman from Fareham having her 15 minutes of fame on social media currently. She's been banned from Bournemouth hospital after filming empty corridors on a Saturday evening and claiming the pandemic is a huge hoax.

Meanwhile in a quarantined area of the hospital (quarantined for her safety!) covid wards are filled to capacity. I know this for a fact - my daughter has a very good friend who is a nurse there. A lot of those patients are frightened and fighting for breath. Some of them are comatose. Some of them are dying. And they're not all Rorschach expendables either - some of them are fit 40 or 50 year olds who just happen to be a bit more susceptible. And even if they were expendables, I think I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep like my dear old Mum did at the fine old age of 93, with all her marbles and beloved by her children and grandchildren, than isolated in a hospital ward, fighting for breath and surrounded by strangers - however compassionate and well meaning.

I'm booked in for my jab on Saturday and I'm very grateful to be offered it.


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## Woody2Shoes (4 Feb 2021)

Went out to local town today to deal with financial fallout from parent's covid. Pleased to see quite a few (other) grey haired individuals emboldened by recent jab(s) to go out again (in suitably masked and distanced fashion). Just like the slow increase in the amount of birdsong and catkins, a welcome hint of change in the air...


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## Droogs (4 Feb 2021)

Well to update, I feel like rubbish. Slightly bunged up and very low level heat slightly above normal. Well that's what it feels like, it is about 1/2 deg above my norm. The worst bit is I feel like I fell out the window and landed on a cattle grid, funnily though the only bit that does not ache is where they jabbed me. Off to have a long hot raddox soak might help


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## Nigel Burden (4 Feb 2021)

My wife has had no after effects whatsoever, that was sixteen days ago, Oxford Astra Zeneca. I'm due mine on Tuesday next week. As far as I know, it'll be the Phizer Biontec.

Nigel.


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## artie (4 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> Well to update, I feel like rubbish.


Take it easy, likely pass soon.


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## Rorschach (4 Feb 2021)

Since it looks like we are going to comfortably meet the mid Feb target, anyone like to place a bet on restrictions being eased? My prediction is that within about 2 weeks we will be below 500 deaths per day and that puts us back into the realms of early November. I think we should start to see some movement pretty quickly when we get to those sorts of figures as it's going to be very hard to justify severe lockdown then as overall mortality will be back around or likely even below the 5 year average.


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## artie (4 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Since it looks like we are going to comfortably meet the mid Feb target, anyone like to place a bet on restrictions being eased? My prediction is that within about 2 weeks we will be below 500 deaths per day and that puts us back into the realms of early November. I think we should start to see some movement pretty quickly when we get to those sorts of figures as it's going to be very hard to justify severe lockdown then as overall mortality will be back around or likely even below the 5 year average.


I hope you are right.

But it may play out a bit longer with new variants.


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## mikej460 (4 Feb 2021)

Had mine yesterday, no problems at all. At least 6 people in our small village contracted the virus, they were all very poorly and said they wouldn't wish it on anyone, yet they weren't severe enough to be hospitalised, so imagine how bad those poor people are that are now in hospital gasping for breath. These are real people who are really sick, so its isn't social media persuading me and other like-minded people - it's reality. What social media is doing is spreading garbage about empty hospitals and vaccines that harm you and don't work.


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## RobinBHM (4 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> very hard to justify severe lockdown then


There isn't a severe lockdown though, is there?

Schools are at 30% to 50% capacity
Rush hour is mega busy around here


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## Bm101 (4 Feb 2021)

Your second Jab Artie?
You're already at about 70 % there. Involuntarily. Fair play.
Without social media .. but there is social media Artie.
In the States most news channels have folded leading to a huge number of people getting their news off the internet. No joke.
I absolutely accept your right not too have (at least the second jab) but what I do find upsetting is the amount of people who will peddle rumour, heresay and blind ignorance as fact.
I'm in EN10 and subject to cursory testing due to 'South Africa etc etc' . Good. I support it. I stuck a swab onmy tonsils yesterdays and threw up. Then stuck it up my hoooter. It made my eyes water and swear to kill some c***. Proper rage. Not good with that stuff. But I did it.



I see the Nurses on tv in bits after 12 hour shifts. I go to pick my kids up 3 days from school and the same div mums are 'still' there outside the gates. No masks. These are the 'key workers' who pick the kids up in their fookin pyjamas. And the school says nowt in case the inflame tensions in the traveller community. With all their key workers. lol Does anyone even_ care _it's mental? Apparently not.

Good luck Artie. Hope it works out for you post jab not taking your second jab. I respect your position though. Honest.


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## doctor Bob (4 Feb 2021)

Hope all is cool Chris, thought that was your area.
Business partner is EN7 and I'm not a million miles away.


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## D_W (5 Feb 2021)

I can think of one reason- if you just recovered from real covid. The vaccine is pointless. 
A second might be if you're fit and 25. Infection is low risk.


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## Terry - Somerset (5 Feb 2021)

My take on relaxation of lockdown. Boris and co are playing it very safe, opening schools (possibly) on 8th March. Messaging is all about gradual relaxation to avoid raising expectations.

This is naive. By the end of February there will be 15m (mainly older) with active vaccine coursing through their veins. Many of the younger demographic either think Covid a fairy tale or that it won't affect them.

Business is desperate to get back to being a business. Concerns over a trashed economy will make opposition to continued restrictions very vocal.

In the UK we police by consent. We do not have the resources to deploy against mass non-compliance. By the end of February there will be 20-25m wanting to resume "normality" and many will simply ignore any rules and guidance.

There are still some estimates related to the vaccine - efficacy, how frequently it will need to be repeated, to what extent does it limit transmission. Similar unknowns related to the virus - mutations etc. 

There are 3-4 weeks of further vaccine rollout to get a proper handle on this by beginning of March.

There may be a residue of guidance and law left - eg: mask wearing in shops, social distancing, covid safe restaurants only to open initially. Basically those things which have more limited personal or business impacts whilst reducing further residual transmission. 

But by the end of March major personal and business restrictions will be unenforceable and will need to be relaxed - otherwise the government will simply risk ridicule.


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## Rorschach (5 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> There isn't a severe lockdown though, is there?
> 
> Schools are at 30% to 50% capacity
> Rush hour is mega busy around here



Leave it out, you are just trying to get this thread shut down now as well with your nonsense. It's pointless even replying to you.


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## Chris152 (5 Feb 2021)

I'm in tier 8, fair amount of time til I get my vaccination, two older kids in secondary school. Can't say I'm looking forward to their return. People age 50-70 with jobs, kids and other reasons they can't protect themselves stand to be pretty much exposed to the new mutations for some time to come as lock down gets lifted.


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## Adam Pinson (5 Feb 2021)

I'm going to wait until the trials are over in 2023 to make my decission.


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## RobinBHM (5 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> as overall mortality will be back around or likely even below the 5 year average


That's not very relavent data, it doesn't tell you 40, 50, 60, 70 year olds are in hospital with Covid, or tell you the stress of being a nurse.

What counts is the number of Covid hospital admissions.


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## RobinBHM (5 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Leave it out, you are just trying to get this thread shut down now as well with your nonsense. It's pointless even replying to you.


Please could you stop sidetracking threads with your alternative facts.

This must be the final lockdown, so we need to come out of it slowly and carefully. 

We do not want to see a spike of cases

Lockdown end should not start until 3 weeks after the first 4 groups have been vaccinated.

Let's not try conflating the argument with excess death averages nonsense.


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## RobinBHM (5 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> I'm in tier 8, fair amount of time til I get my vaccination, two older kids in secondary school. Can't say I'm looking forward to their return. People age 50-70 with jobs, kids and other reasons they can't protect themselves stand to be pretty much exposed to the new mutations for some time to come as lock down gets lifted.


My wife is 49, she is a peripatetic piano teacher.

She thinks there will be a huge urgency for restrictions to be lifted exposing her age group upwards.


Her Dad is currently in hospital dying (as in they've stopped all medication, food, drink) for obvious reasons my wife, her mum and sister are visiting, but it's very concerning - the doctors tell her "Covid is everywhere in the hospital".

My wife actually teaches the saxophone to a somebody with a senior position in the hospital, who concurs.

My wife has Graves' disease, an auto immune disorder, although she mostly has no symptoms, it's a risk factor. I have high blood pressure, same thing. 
Neither of us are unduly worried about Covid, but we have been very careful throughout this lockdown to minimise risks of exposure. It is just sensible.


It's great news the vaccine seems to cut transmission, the more it's rolled out, the faster cases will fall.


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## Chris152 (5 Feb 2021)

I'm not sure there's a lot that can be done about it, but it'd be nice for the govt to acknowledge there's an issue and maybe even offer advice - there was talk a way back about over-50s isolating, and of us wearing higher grade masks to protect ourselves rather than just others. At least it'd create awareness and a framework for people to make decisions as to what to do til they get the vaccine/ protection.

[I wanted to quote yours from 'my wife [to] her age group upwards' - can't we do that any more? Some things have changed around here, some _exactly_ the same!]

ps Ditto blood pressure. Apparently about 16 million in the UK have it but many don't know they have it.


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## Droogs (5 Feb 2021)

Last update on my vaccine experience. I had a rather sweaty night and had a very flushed feeling for most of it and then around 4 this morning the pseudo fever(?) broke and I was able to doze off. Woke up this morning feeling fine even if a little achey in my back muscles. So over the hump as it were


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## Garno (5 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> Last update on my vaccine experience. I had a rather sweaty night and had a very flushed feeling for most of it and then around 4 this morning the pseudo fever(?) broke and I was able to doze off. Woke up this morning feeling fine even if a little achey in my back muscles. So over the hump as it were



That is great news and thank you for letting us know.
Mrs G had aches across her shoulders and down her arms for a day but was fine from then on.
I think the vaccines hit people in different ways or with no effects.
Anyway the main thing is you are feeling ok.

Gary


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## Lignafera (5 Feb 2021)

Had my AZ vaccine yesterday afternoon, in and out in 4 minutes very efficient. About 3 am this morning I began to shiver then shake, I have never been so cold, chest pains, short of breath, reminded me of my heart attack 2 years ago.
The side affects have been reported with the Corvid yellow card and my GP.
Needless to say I will not be having my second jab.


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## XH558 (5 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> Lots of folks under 65 have had it, in London and elsewhere, seen and unseen, likely to have been a Healthcare, care worker or volunteer in the vaccination programme.


We had our first dose of the Pfizer vaccine on Wednesday. Lister Hospital Stevenage. Plenty of FREE parking, folk arriving as requested, all very well organised. Went better than clockwork. We Foster so come under the essential worker heading. I'm 64 and my wife is 61. second appointment on 7/4/21.
My wife has had a sore arm and some back ache but I have so far had nothing. Just remember it's free. So many scams around at the moment.

Take care all.


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## Nick Laguna UK (5 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> That's wonderful news @Nick Laguna UK , they will probably do the whole household if asked, certainly worth asking.


Hi Garno, they took my wife's contact details when she took my daughter in this morning, and said they will add her to their list of people who they call towards the end of every day to use up any vaccines left over due to 'no shows' - we are walking distance away from the surgery & can get there in 2 mins - so fingers crossed she may also get hers later too. They said they don't know at the start of the day if any will be left over, but there usually are. Cheers and a lot happier now my daughter has had hers - will report back here if there's any side effects like some seem to have had, but I'd rather side effects for my daughter than possible full blown Covid that's for sure.


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## Jonm (5 Feb 2021)

Lignafera said:


> Had my AZ vaccine yesterday afternoon, in and out in 4 minutes very efficient. About 3 am this morning I began to shiver then shake, I have never been so cold, chest pains, short of breath, reminded me of my heart attack 2 years ago.
> The side affects have been reported with the Corvid yellow card and my GP.
> Needless to say I will not be having my second jab.


So you have had a taste of what Covid does to you. Your logic is not to get better protection from Covid by having a second Injection. I am not following your logic unless of course you are bothered that it will trigger another heart attack.


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## Garno (5 Feb 2021)

Nick Laguna UK said:


> Hi Garno, they took my wife's contact details when she took my daughter in this morning, and said they will add her to their list of people who they call towards the end of every day to use up any vaccines left over due to 'no shows' - we are walking distance away from the surgery & can get there in 2 mins - so fingers crossed she may also get hers later too. They said they don't know at the start of the day if any will be left over, but there usually are. Cheers and a lot happier now my daughter has had hers - will report back here if there's any side effects like some seem to have had, but I'd rather side effects for my daughter than possible full blown Covid that's for sure.



It would be nice if she got the call, The main thing is that your daughter had hers done with no problems.
@Lignafera sounds like you had a real bad time of it, that's a shame really as it has put you off having the second jab. I'm sorry you had to go through that. 
@XH558 That's the same jab as myself and Mrs G had and we also had very little in the way of side effects to which I am glad of, Some people on here have had it tough and I feel a little guilty about how easy things have been for us.


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## Garno (5 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> unless of course you are bothered that it will trigger another heart attack.



In fairness that is how I read it.


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## Jonm (5 Feb 2021)

Received text from GP yesterday, booked appointment for today, now had jab, very efficient, no queue. I had the Astra Zeneca and it was totally painless, I did not feel anything, not even the slightest prick. The nurse was an absolute expert. no side effects yet.


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## D_W (5 Feb 2021)

let us know tomorrow...hah!

My dad got the moderna shot here - great first day. Couldn't lift his arm the second day (soreness and no ability to use the muscle) and then within a couple of days, no problem. He hasn't gotten the second shot. 

Wife's response to the second one was a little more than a day of complete misery (the day after the second shot is when it occurred), and then it went away as fast as it came. 

Small price to pay compared to potential weeks of sickness and passing that sickness to others.


----------



## Rorschach (5 Feb 2021)

Announcement today that they are planning to get all over 50's vaccinated by end of May. That covers 99.9% of potential deaths. I wonder then if they will bother doing the under 50's (unless they have a co-morbidity). Seems to me to be a waste of time and they would be better concentrating on looking at ongoing immunity in the older age groups as it would only be a few months before those vaccinated in Dec 2020 would be needing a booster for Autumn/Winter this year possibly tweaked for a new variant.


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## Jonm (5 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> In fairness that is how I read it.


Reading my post to lignafera it was a bit harsh. I can understand not wanting to repeat something which reminds you of a heart attack. I could have worded it better.


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## billw (5 Feb 2021)

I love being 49. After the over 50s are done, what then? Schoolkids? Ship the stuff to Africa? If you're not going to vaccinate me any time soon should I stay home until 2022? I've really had enough of this [email protected] now, I just want to go to the gym and have a KFC.


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## Droogs (5 Feb 2021)

@billw What you need is to sit down and have a watch of this


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## billw (5 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> @billw What you need is to sit down and have a watch of this



Regardless of what's in KFC I am sitting here thinking I've extended the lifespan of people who are already overdue to die by normal standards whilst pissing away 12 months of my prime and not being able to do anything I enjoy. Yes that's selfish, but the old crumblies who are dying in homes are the ones who voted for Thatcherism which led to people being selfish in the first place so sympathy votes are slim to none. Actually, they're not slim, they're none.


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## Droogs (5 Feb 2021)

I was just pointing out you could while away the time and create your own KFC and with much better quality chicken, probably

oh  as I walk off munching on my own homemade big mac after finding out the secret sauce is just Danish remoulade


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## D_W (5 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Announcement today that they are planning to get all over 50's vaccinated by end of May. That covers 99.9% of potential deaths. I wonder then if they will bother doing the under 50's (unless they have a co-morbidity). Seems to me to be a waste of time and they would be better concentrating on looking at ongoing immunity in the older age groups as it would only be a few months before those vaccinated in Dec 2020 would be needing a booster for Autumn/Winter this year possibly tweaked for a new variant.



yes, they will do under 50 - people under 50 can still have significant numbers of moderate cases and keep viral load in the community to mutate. immunity in the older groups will be concurrent with boosters or mutations.


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## Rorschach (5 Feb 2021)

billw said:


> Regardless of what's in KFC I am sitting here thinking I've extended the lifespan of people who are already overdue to die by normal standards whilst pissing away 12 months of my prime and not being able to do anything I enjoy. Yes that's selfish, but the old crumblies who are dying in homes are the ones who voted for Thatcherism which led to people being selfish in the first place so sympathy votes are slim to none. Actually, they're not slim, they're none.



Hey stop stealing my schtick, I am the cold, selfish and heartless one here apparently. You'll have to face the "wrath" of Robin and Rafezetter if you carry on and they'll have you shaking in your boots! lol.


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## Rorschach (5 Feb 2021)

D_W said:


> yes, they will do under 50 - people under 50 can still have significant numbers of moderate cases and keep viral load in the community to mutate. immunity in the older groups will be concurrent with boosters or mutations.



I am not so sure, but we'll see. If they do the under 50's it certainly won't be a long term thing like flu jabs, very quickly it will become apparent that it's a waste of time and money and only the vulnerable need be vaccinated just like we have always done.


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## artie (5 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> very quickly it will become apparent that it's a waste of time and money


Depends what angle you are looking from.


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## Rorschach (5 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Depends what angle you are looking from.



Well we don't give under 65's the flu jab currently and they are actually more susceptible to flu than they are to C19. We do give it to very young children though because they are at risk from flu, we wouldn't give them a C19 vac because they are almost entirely unaffected by it.


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## Chris152 (5 Feb 2021)

billw said:


> Regardless of what's in KFC I am sitting here thinking I've extended the lifespan of people who are already overdue to die by normal standards whilst pissing away 12 months of my prime and not being able to do anything I enjoy. Yes that's selfish, but the old crumblies who are dying in homes are the ones who voted for Thatcherism which led to people being selfish in the first place so sympathy votes are slim to none. Actually, they're not slim, they're none.


The average loss of life of those who've died is about 11 years, apparently. And I'm sure lots of people dying old people's homes didn't vote for Thatcher.


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## sawdust1 (5 Feb 2021)

My Daughter had her jab today and is proper poorly, 18 year old and just started working in a surgery. 1/2 hour after the
jab felt sick and started passing out. She was helping with the Jabs in a local hospital so good place to be taken ill i suppose, had a call to pick her up at 11 and she is still feeling unwell tonight.
So don't expect all the jabs to go without problems !


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## doctor Bob (5 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Well we don't give under 65's the flu jab currently and they are actually more susceptible to flu than they are to C19. We do give it to very young children though because they are at risk from flu, we wouldn't give them a C19 vac because they are almost entirely unaffected by it.


I had it and I’m 55.


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## Jonm (5 Feb 2021)

billw said:


> Regardless of what's in KFC I am sitting here thinking I've extended the lifespan of people who are already overdue to die by normal standards whilst pissing away 12 months of my prime and not being able to do anything I enjoy. Yes that's selfish, but the old crumblies who are dying in homes are the ones who voted for Thatcherism which led to people being selfish in the first place so sympathy votes are slim to none. Actually, they're not slim, they're none.


Thatcher believed in a free market economy not a regulated economy with Nationalised industries. The exception to this was the NHS and her successful election campaigns of 1983 and 1987 emphasised her commitment to the NHS. Thatcherism was not about being selfish.

Your attitude is to allow the people working in the NHS to be overwhelmed by an onslaught of sick people. If you were to have a serious illness it would likely remain untreated leaving you to suffer unless you were in danger of Imminent death.

Blaming your admitted selfishness on Thatcher and the 44% of voters who voted for her is ridiculous.


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## mikej460 (5 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Well we don't give under 65's the flu jab currently and they are actually more susceptible to flu than they are to C19. We do give it to very young children though because they are at risk from flu, we wouldn't give them a C19 vac because they are almost entirely unaffected by it.


I think the reasoning is the under 65s don't die of flu but they can be asymptomatic with Covid and simply transmit it. So they don't need the flu jab unless they have underlying conditions and do need the Covid jab.


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## mikej460 (5 Feb 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I had it and I’m 55.


I've had mine this week and I'm 64


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## mikej460 (5 Feb 2021)

billw said:


> Regardless of what's in KFC I am sitting here thinking I've extended the lifespan of people who are already overdue to die by normal standards whilst pissing away 12 months of my prime and not being able to do anything I enjoy. Yes that's selfish, but the old crumblies who are dying in homes are the ones who voted for Thatcherism which led to people being selfish in the first place so sympathy votes are slim to none. Actually, they're not slim, they're none.


I'm hearing my Dad's voice at this juncture "you might mock son but you'll be old one day". Whilst you're sat in your workshop try and take comfort in the fact that you're not asymptomatically transmitting the virus to those 'old crumblies' regardless of their political bent.


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## Trainee neophyte (5 Feb 2021)

According to the Guardian, (One in five in England have had Covid, modelling suggests), 12 million had already been infected with the coronavirus by the beginning of January and are therefore immune. You can add all the January infections, known and unknown. If another 10 or 11 million have been vaccinated, assuming that the two groups don't overlap to a great degree, then we are looking at nearly half the population. This is almost in herd immunity territory, and will only get closer as time goes on. Herd immunity is a bit of a moving target, but in the old days it used to be 1-1/R0. We can all have fun disagreeing on what the R0 number is...

In theory, the number of new infections should fall off a cliff any day now. If they don't, why not?


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## RobinBHM (5 Feb 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> According to the Guardian, (One in five in England have had Covid, modelling suggests), 12 million had already been infected with the coronavirus by the beginning of January and are therefore immune. You can add all the January infections, known and unknown. If another 10 or 11 million have been vaccinated, assuming that the two groups don't overlap to a great degree, then we are looking at nearly half the population. This is almost in herd immunity territory, and will only get closer as time goes on. Herd immunity is a bit of a moving target, but in the old days it used to be 1-1/R0. We can all have fun disagreeing on what the R0 number is...
> 
> In theory, the number of new infections should fall off a cliff any day now. If they don't, why not?



The lockdown is working, it's bringing down the infection rate
Add to that the vaccine roll out, yes we should hopefully see it come down.

Bear in mind that hospitals are now able to treat Covid, which is good, however it means patients are in ICU for longer than typical ICU stays. Instead of the usual 7-10 days, they may be there for 40 or 50 days. 
So hospital capacity won't improve quickly.


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## Blackswanwood (5 Feb 2021)

Other than if it’s on the basis of individual medical advice I don’t see why anyone would choose not to be vaccinated. It’s free and the scientific advice is to have it. It could also be a requirement before being able to take a holiday which may persuade some that it’s a good idea.


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## Jake (5 Feb 2021)

Lignafera said:


> Had my AZ vaccine yesterday afternoon, in and out in 4 minutes very efficient. About 3 am this morning I began to shiver then shake, I have never been so cold, chest pains, short of breath, reminded me of my heart attack 2 years ago.
> The side affects have been reported with the Corvid yellow card and my GP.
> Needless to say I will not be having my second jab.



How do you reckon your body would react to the real thing?


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## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

The evidence on asymptomatic transmission of C19 is pretty sketchy. Pre (or early)-symptomatic definitely occurs as in almost all viral infections, but asymptomatic is probably very low. It's worth pointing out flu can also be transmitted in the same way, though again the numbers are sketchy as it's very hard to test. Plenty of articles on google going back many years if you care to look (and if it fits your narrative)
We are told that you can transmit without symptoms as a precaution more than anything else, we will get better figures in the future, hence why I say regular vaccination for under 50's is unlikely to be common going forward but may well occur for the next year or two. If the vulnerable are vaccinated every year like with flu then asymptomatic transmission isn't an issue anyway as long as it is only spreading in groups who suffer no symptoms or very mild symptoms, again it would be like flu, the majority of those who get flu every year get a mild illness or don't even know they have it and we don't fuss about it.

Vaccination may be necessary for travel, though my suspicion is again this will be a short term thing and possibly age related. Vaccination for general activities within the UK will definitely not be mandatory, they can't even force it on healthcare workers now so they definitely won't be making me have one to go to the pub! lol


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## Fergie 307 (6 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> There isn't a severe lockdown though, is there?
> 
> Schools are at 30% to 50% capacity
> Rush hour is mega busy around here


Have to agree. The difference between the first lockdown and now is very noticeable. Much more traffic and so many packed retail parks, full of people visiting shops that are now apparently 'essential' but weren't first time round. No wonder it's taking us so long to get a grip of it.


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## Ollie78 (6 Feb 2021)

I am a little undecided about the vaccine. 

Especially as they have just started saying that maybe you can get one from Pfizer first and then maybe whatever other one is in stock second. 
This just seems too random, there are 3 different technologies in the vaccines and this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.
They are not testing for antibodies before giving the jabs so some people's first jab is effectively the second dose if they have had covid then they will be effectively having a third.

I get the principle of herd immunity and all that but it is all a bit fishy.
I have been concerned since the government decided that they would just give drug companies "immunity " (sorry) from prosecution if anything goes wrong. 
I do not believe Pfizer etc. would have dared to start mass vaccination if they could be prosecuted for any problem. 

I am sure we will all eventually have to have it and my parents will be going soon.

The situation overall just seems really sketchy.

Ollie


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## doctor Bob (6 Feb 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Have to agree. The difference between the first lockdown and now is very noticeable. Much more traffic and so many packed retail parks, full of people visiting shops that are now apparently 'essential' but weren't first time round. No wonder it's taking us so long to get a grip of it.


I’m in Hertfordshire/ Essex and it feels quiet


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## Fergie 307 (6 Feb 2021)

Glad to hear it, Luton is very busy.


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## Blackswanwood (6 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I am a little undecided about the vaccine.
> 
> Especially as they have just started saying that maybe you can get one from Pfizer first and then maybe whatever other one is in stock second.
> This just seems too random, there are 3 different technologies in the vaccines and this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.
> ...


Ollie, I just work on the basis that if people far more qualified to know say do it then I do it. Maybe all the antIvaxers will prove me wrong but It feels to me the balance of probabilities for a favourable outcome lies with what my doctor tells me rather than urban myth.

It is however rightly a matter of personal choice and in keeping with all internet debates the difference between me and others is they think they are right whereas I know I am


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## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

Roads are definitely busier than the first weeks of Lockdown 1 but similar to how they were once people had got more comfortable in Late April/early May last year. Shops are quiet, haven't queued at all again since early April. Plenty of people out on the parks and outdoor spaces but this is perfectly legal and good to see people getting fresh air and exercise when they can. Definitely more kids going to school as well, quite a few in fact. Aside from there being a slight morning rush hour again I can't really see much other difference compared to last year and I can't understand why so many keep moaning about it. 

The same people moaning that this lockdown isn't "as good" as lockdown 1 and it needs to be stricter are also the people claiming that infections etc are going down because it is working and necessary. You can't have it both ways.


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## profchris (6 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I am a little undecided about the vaccine.
> 
> Especially as they have just started saying that maybe you can get one from Pfizer first and then maybe whatever other one is in stock second.
> This just seems too random, there are 3 different technologies in the vaccines and this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.
> ...



I think the reason it seems sketchy is that the media reports you read or watch only focus on what they consider highlights. As an analogy think of the Repair Shop - you never see the full repair process, just selected bits.

All the vaccines do the same thing, they stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies. They do it in different ways. The important thing seems to be to nudge your immune system twice, and exactly how it's done each time doesn't matter.

To get a non-sketchy picture you have to go to sources like New Scientist. This will evaluate the bigger picture for you.


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## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> The same people moaning that this lockdown isn't "as good" as lockdown 1 and it needs to be stricter are also the people claiming that infections etc are going down because it is working and necessary. You can't have it both ways



Basic strawman.
You are making an argument built on removing all detail and nuance.


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## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

And the award for the most predictable comment goes too.................


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## Ollie78 (6 Feb 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Ollie, I just work on the basis that if people far more qualified to know say do it then I do it. Maybe all the antIvaxers will prove me wrong but It feels to me the balance of probabilities for a favourable outcome lies with what my doctor tells me rather than urban myth.
> 
> It is however rightly a matter of personal choice and in keeping with all internet debates the difference between me and others is they think they are right whereas I know I am



I am not anti vax in general. However I worry that in this case its s bit of a rushed job in many ways. 
People being more qualified to know does not necessarily mean they really know. At this point I don't think anyone knows
There is far from universal agreement about the strategy being employed.


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## artie (6 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.


You are beginning to get it.

In reality it's a two year clinical trial of an experimental biological agent which would not have met the definition of a vaccine in previous times.

But who knows, it may work.


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## Ollie78 (6 Feb 2021)

profchris said:


> I think the reason it seems sketchy is that the media reports you read or watch only focus on what they consider highlights. As an analogy think of the Repair Shop - you never see the full repair process, just selected bits.
> 
> All the vaccines do the same thing, they stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies. They do it in different ways. The important thing seems to be to nudge your immune system twice, and exactly how it's done each time doesn't matter.
> 
> To get a non-sketchy picture you have to go to sources like New Scientist. This will evaluate the bigger picture for you.



I agree, and try not to form my opinion on any single source especially sensationalist newspapers. The problem really stems from the fact that "we don't know" is a valid scientific position but not, it appears, a valid journalistic or political position.

Ollie


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## Trainee neophyte (6 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I am a little undecided about the vaccine.
> 
> Especially as they have just started saying that maybe you can get one from Pfizer first and then maybe whatever other one is in stock second.
> This just seems too random, there are 3 different technologies in the vaccines and this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.
> ...


Firstly, the best possible situation for you is if everyone else has the vaccine, and you don't. It doesn't work if everyone thinks the same way, unfortunately.

Giving out a new, untested (in the traditional sense) vaccine indiscriminately will probably be fine. It's just a vaccine, after all. Nothing to worry about. Vaccines have been after round for 100 years or more. There have never been any major medical disasters relating to unexpected adverse outcomes, so why worry? What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

Everyone needs to do their own risk/benefit analysis: is fear of Covid19 greater than fear of a vaccine? That's the emotional decision to be made. Can you get any facts to help take the emotion out of the equation? I'd love to help, but there are so many facts kicking around that I don't know what is true and what isn't. Normal rules do not apply to this new disease. 

For example, Robbin's pet lockdown works. We know it works, because there is zero influenza this year. Completely eradicated. Good work everyone. So why is the Coronavirus still charging around infecting everyone? Must be because they are failing to comply with the rules, obviously. But if they are not complying, why are they not catching the 'flu? 

Baffling. 

(3)


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## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I am not so sure, but we'll see. If they do the under 50's it certainly won't be a long term thing like flu jabs, very quickly it will become apparent that it's a waste of time and money and only the vulnerable need be vaccinated just like we have always done.



About 10% of those who got critically ill were under 50.

Waste of time and money eh?


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## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Firstly, the best possible situation for you is if everyone else has the vaccine, and you don't. It doesn't work if everyone thinks the same way, unfortunately.
> 
> Giving out a new, untested (in the traditional sense) vaccine indiscriminately will probably be fine. It's just a vaccine, after all. Nothing to worry about. Vaccines have been after round for 100 years or more. There have never been any major medical disasters relating to unexpected adverse outcomes, so why worry? What could possibly go wrong? ;-)
> 
> ...



Will you please, for once in your life refrain from dishonest debating.
It is becoming tedious


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## Trainee neophyte (6 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Will you please, for once in your life refrain from dishonest debating.
> It is becoming tedious


I'm disappointed, I will admit. This is a happy thread, full of happy thoughts. I had hoped to give you some logical fallacies to get your teeth into, becauwe i know you collect them, but seems I may have reached a fallacy too far. There's just no pleasing some people.

Have a great weekend everyone. I'm off to play in the sunshine.


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## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

billw said:


> I am sitting here thinking I've extended the lifespan of people who are already overdue to die by normal standards whilst pissing away 12 months of my prime and not being able to do



If you are thinking that, perhaps you might like to have a re think.

My niece has a work colleague in her 20s that has long Covid. Ongoing breathing and heart problems.

And she is seeing people hospitalised who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s.


Unfortunately you, like Rorschach and others are stuck in this over simplistic argument it's just people about to die who are dying......that's simply not the case.

Without restrictions there would be many many thousands of people who were perfectly healthy, dying or suffering long Covid.


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## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I'm disappointed, I will admit. This is a happy thread, full of happy thoughts. I had hoped to give you some logical fallacies to get your teeth into, becauwe i know you collect them, but seems I may have reached a fallacy too far. There's just no pleasing some people.
> 
> Have a great weekend everyone. I'm off to play in the sunshine.



Trolling, in other words.


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## doctor Bob (6 Feb 2021)

This thread is about the vaccine, why not pm each other. 
Really good number yesterday


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## gregmcateer (6 Feb 2021)

D_W said:


> I can think of one reason- if you just recovered from real covid. The vaccine is pointless.



Funnily enough, I thought the same. Until my lad, (20), tested positive. Slight cough, lost sense of smell, otherwise fine. When attended blood centre later, offering plasma(? I think) for therapeutic reasons, they tested and said thanks, but insufficient antibodies. Plus told him he should still socially distance and when vaccine ready, he will still need it for long term protection.

Don't ask me - just reporting what he was told.


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## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> About 10% of those who got critically ill were under 50.
> 
> Waste of time and money eh?



Yep


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## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> This thread is about the vaccine, why not pm each other.
> Really good number yesterday



You can't morally pontificate in PM's though and show off to everyone how much better you are than those evil people who care about everyone in the country, not just the very old. 

Very good numbers, great numbers, numbers always going biggly upwards, the best numbers. I miss those tweets already.


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## Deadeye (6 Feb 2021)

I promised myself not to look at these threads - because they just leave me cross and despairing in about equal measure.

Nevertheless, in the faint hope that it may help somebody who is wavering to take up the vaccination, a few comments:

Firstly, side effects. If you take sterile fine needles and gave 1,000,000 a mock jab the statistics are that around 10 would have some degree of anaphylactic response and 1 of them might die; those are severe events. If you include material in your million jabs that either is, or produces, something the body recognises as foreign, the frequency of some after effect (mild to moderate) is 10%-20%. If you include "a bit achy in the arm and rather tired", it might even be half. None of those are of concern.
Set against that risk are two benefits:
1. You are very very much less likely to suffer severe disease; some vaccines provide almost complete protection. In the case of Covid, the vaccines do a phenomenal job of preventing disease serious enough for hospitalisation. It's important to remember that avoiding severe disease is not only about surviving; it also avoids much of the long-term damage. You only have one set of lungs; best not to wreck them. Woodworkers of all people should get that.
2. You make an essential contribution to protecting others, but reducing transmission.
The risk-cost-benefit of vaccines is a closed scientific issue. It's done. A long time ago. The benefits so hugely outweigh the costs/problems that I struggle to think of a single other medical intervention that would rate more highly. The Covid vaccine is no exception.

Secondly, safety of the development process. No stages of the asseeement have been excluded; they simply have been pushed 24/7 with extraordinary purposefulness. I stopped counting a while back, but several tens of thousands of people were involved in the trials of the current set of vaccines. These were properly blinded and controlled trials. Promulgating unfounded misinformation is a huge disservice to the volunteers in those trials and the clinicians and scientists conducting them.

If you are offered the vaccine, I'd implore you to take it up. I had it last Wednesday (Pfizer). My arm was a little bruised ; next day I was completely back to normal.


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## Lignafera (6 Feb 2021)

Thanks Garno for your kind words.
Perhaps I was a bit hasty with my refusal of the second jab, but at the time of writing I was feeling unwell. I do realise the importance of full vaccination, my GP is going to phone me Monday to discuss the matter.


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## Jonm (6 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I am not anti vax in general. However I worry that in this case its s bit of a rushed job in many ways.
> People being more qualified to know does not necessarily mean they really know. At this point I don't think anyone knows
> There is far from universal agreement about the strategy being employed.


I also have reservations about the vaccine, we are giving it to a huge number of people and there may be long term consequences. There are examples like thalidomide.

We have to consider what happens when the vulnerable (older) people have been vaccinated and the economy opens up. The criteria will be not to overload the nhs. The pressure on the government to get back to normal will be massive, most of us do not like being hermits. There will be a rise in coronavirus cases but hopefully without the associated deaths. Unvaccinated vulnerable people will be at risk unless they self isolate but that will be their choice if they have been offered the vaccine.

I am in the vulnerable age group and was delighted to get the vaccine, my logic is that long term problems with the vaccine will probably be too long term to affect me. The balance between an imminent real deadly threat and a remotely possible long term unknown problem was a no brainier for me.

If I were younger, say in my thirties then I am not sure what my attitude would be to having the vaccine. I suppose that by the time it is offered to those age groups the risks of the disease will be better understood. Also there is the issue of the overall good, reducing the risk of more deadly mutations, protecting those who are vulnerable but cannot have the vaccine etc.

Having the vaccine is not compulsory but there will be little help or sympathy for those who refuse the vaccine and have consequences like long Covid.


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## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

I believe UK feedback of side effects from the vaccine is currently 22,000 reported side effects from approx 7 million vaccinated.

The vast vast majority of those were mild side effects.


I would choose the vaccine over the virus.


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## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Lignafera said:


> Thanks Garno for your kind words.
> Perhaps I was a bit hasty with my refusal of the second jab, but at the time of writing I was feeling unwell. I do realise the importance of full vaccination, my GP is going to phone me Monday to discuss the matter.


A nasty reaction can be quite frightening, you have good reason to be concerned.

The good news is, you've recovered from the jab and you will get a high level of antibodies within a month, so you don't have to rush into making a decision urgently to protect yourself in the next few months.


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## Jonm (6 Feb 2021)

Lignafera said:


> Thanks Garno for your kind words.
> Perhaps I was a bit hasty with my refusal of the second jab, but at the time of writing I was feeling unwell. I do realise the importance of full vaccination, my GP is going to phone me Monday to discuss the matter.


Lignafera, I commented on your post and looking at it now I was not very considerate and apologise. Clearly any reaction which is similar to your heart problem would be worrying. I hope everything goes well and you can sort out what is best for you.


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## Woody2Shoes (6 Feb 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Firstly, the best possible situation for you is if everyone else has the vaccine, and you don't. It doesn't work if everyone thinks the same way, unfortunately.
> 
> Giving out a new, untested (in the traditional sense) vaccine indiscriminately will probably be fine. It's just a vaccine, after all. Nothing to worry about. Vaccines have been after round for 100 years or more. There have never been any major medical disasters relating to unexpected adverse outcomes, so why worry? What could possibly go wrong? ;-)
> 
> ...


I think that there are two or three reasons why we have seen so little flu this season so far (sufficient to trouble the healthcare system at least):
1) More people in the 'at risk' groups have had a flu jab this year than in earlier years;
2) There has been less social interaction and a lot less international travel;
3) We've been lucky that the currently dominant strains out there are not unusually transmissible and/or dangerous.

It's either some combination of the above or some kind of trick by the lizard people controlled by Bill Gates.


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## Woody2Shoes (6 Feb 2021)

gregmcateer said:


> Funnily enough, I thought the same. Until my lad, (20), tested positive. Slight cough, lost sense of smell, otherwise fine. When attended blood centre later, offering plasma(? I think) for therapeutic reasons, they tested and said thanks, but insufficient antibodies. Plus told him he should still socially distance and when vaccine ready, he will still need it for long term protection.
> 
> Don't ask me - just reporting what he was told.


I think that the standard guidance is that one can have the jab after four weeks of covid infection, and that (other health considerations aside) it's worth having the jab then.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (6 Feb 2021)

Deadeye said:


> I promised myself not to look at these threads - because they just leave me cross and despairing in about equal measure.
> 
> Nevertheless, in the faint hope that it may help somebody who is wavering to take up the vaccination, a few comments:
> 
> ...


Here speaks the voice of reason...


----------



## Woody2Shoes (6 Feb 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I am not anti vax in general. However I worry that in this case its s bit of a rushed job in many ways.
> People being more qualified to know does not necessarily mean they really know. At this point I don't think anyone knows
> There is far from universal agreement about the strategy being employed.


The fact is that people who know DO know more - of course nobody has a monopoly on the truth, but there is all sorts of rigorous scientific evidence that these vaccines are safe and effective.
Anyone who suggests otherwise (edit: without offering suitable scientific evidence of course!) is at best ignorant, possibly arrogant, and at worst malicious. It really is that simple.


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Yep


In that case you are wrong.


----------



## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> In that case you are wrong.



Only in your opinion, and I don't care about your opinion


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

the vaccine creates far higher antibodies than a person will acquire naturally following infection.

Anybody who has had Covid should still have the vaccine.


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## Droogs (6 Feb 2021)

the usual mind over matter. you don't mind and other people don't matter


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## Noel (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach and Robin and one or two others, much as I, ah, enjoy your interactions please do not make this a replay of the last thread. Never the twain shall meet and that is obvious to you both and any dog you find in the street.
@Garno started the thread and it's been informative and perhaps even helpful for those getting/had/considering a jab or two so let's keep it that way.


----------



## Jake (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> The evidence on asymptomatic transmission of C19 is pretty sketchy.



No it is not.


----------



## Deadeye (6 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> I also have reservations about the vaccine, we are giving it to a huge number of people and there may be long term consequences. There are examples like thalidomide.



Jon

I expect you mean well - but please don't suggest that the tragedy of thalidomide is comparable in any way.

Small molecule therapeutics (like thalidomide and most "medicines") are designed to alter the balance of chemical pathways. Because of the complexity and interconnectedness of mammalian biochemistry, it's extremely rare to find a chemical agent with a single effect on a single target receptor that modulates a single pathway and outcome.

Vaccines on the other hand are, or produce by direct translation, an antigenic protein fragment. The fragment itself is not medicinally active; it is just recognised as "foreign". The proces sby which it is recognised as foreign, and a response is raised against it is exactly the same as if you graze your knee and get dirt, viruses, mouold, bacteria or anything else in it. That process is not modified in any way by the vaccination process. The main difference to you grazing your knee, is that a larger quantity of one particular foreign material is being seen, but the mechanism underlying is the same.

Vaccination is probably the safest, most cost-effective and beneficial intervention that medicine can provide. It's up there with clean water, good diet, sufficient sunlight, and exercise. Small molecule therapeutics of course also have their place, but are a different league of risk benefit.

Anyway, glad you are vaccinated; just wanted to correct the false comparison.


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Noel said:


> Rorschach and Robin and one or two others, much as I, ah, enjoy your interactions please do not make this a replay of the last thread. Never the twain shall meet and that is obvious to you both and any dog you find in the street.
> @Garno started the thread and it's been informative and perhaps even helpful for those getting/had/considering a jab or two so let's keep it that way.


Good point, understood


----------



## Terry - Somerset (6 Feb 2021)

To vaccinate or not - there is just 9 months evidence related to long term impacts of vaccination. There are no certainties - but:

for those 60+ the risks of vaccination are almost certainly far exceeded by the risks of contracting covid.
for those below 30, the concern for longer term impacts makes a reluctance to be vaccinated more understandable.
Without forced vaccination individuals will do whatever they choose. The consequences fall mainly upon them. It can be turned into a social responsibility issue, but in reality this is a pointless waste of effort.

The real need is to be explicit about vaccination and what the goals are:

to reduce deaths related to covid to socially acceptable levels. We accept this almost without question for (say) flu.
to limit the impact on NHS to manageable levels will take longer than deaths as younger people also get ill although may not die.
to protect all from the long term effects of covid other than death
to reduce levels of infection to (a) limit the probability of further virus mutation, and (b) allow track and trace to work effectively.
Without goal clarity, the end of lockdown is just a mirage. Tolerance for delay will evaporate soon after (1) above comes in sight by about early March. 

The rationale must be convincingly communicated or restrictions will be unenforceable due to increasingly widespread non-compliance.


----------



## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> To vaccinate or not - there is just 9 months evidence related to long term impacts of vaccination. There are no certainties - but:
> 
> for those 60+ the risks of vaccination are almost certainly far exceeded by the risks of contracting covid.
> for those below 30, the concern for longer term impacts makes a reluctance to be vaccinated more understandable.
> ...



Very sensible stuff as usual Terry.


----------



## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

Noel said:


> Rorschach and Robin and one or two others, much as I, ah, enjoy your interactions please do not make this a replay of the last thread. Never the twain shall meet and that is obvious to you both and any dog you find in the street.
> @Garno started the thread and it's been informative and perhaps even helpful for those getting/had/considering a jab or two so let's keep it that way.



I agree and I apologise for any trouble caused @Garno 
@RobinBHM lets just agree to disagree on all things C19, I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine and the world will be a happier place. Deal?


----------



## Woody2Shoes (6 Feb 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> To vaccinate or not - there is just 9 months evidence related to long term impacts of vaccination. There are no certainties - but:
> 
> for those 60+ the risks of vaccination are almost certainly far exceeded by the risks of contracting covid.
> ......



You have that first point back to front surely - either that, or I insist you back up your assertion with some evidence (it's so potentially dangerous otherwise)?

The risk of death or life-threating illness to a 60+ year-old from a vaccination is vanishingly tiny, whereas the risk of death or life-threatening illness to someone in the same cohort from contracting Covid must be orders of magnitude greater - I really can't be bothered to dig up some numbers, but I will if I have to.
PS that's ignoring the other benefits of vaccination to the wider population: contributing to herd immunity and contributing to a reduction in the opprtunities for virus mutations to occur and propagate themselves.


----------



## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> You have that first point back to front surely - either that, or I insist you back up your assertion with some evidence (it's so potentially dangerous otherwise)?
> 
> The risk of death or life-threating illness to a 60+ year-old from a vaccination is vanishingly tiny, whereas the risk of death or life-threatening illness to someone in the same cohort from contracting Covid must be orders of magnitude greater - I really can't be bothered to dig up some numbers, but I will if I have to.
> PS that's ignoring the other benefits of vaccination to the wider population: contributing to herd immunity and contributing to a reduction in the opprtunities for virus muations to occur and propagate themselves.



What you just said is how I read the point, C19 is more dangerous than vaccine for over 60's, (potentially) less dangerous for under 60.


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## Woody2Shoes (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> What you just said is how I read the point, C19 is more dangerous than vaccine for over 60's, (potentially) less dangerous for under 60.


I really don't agree about the under 60's bit either! Edit: the risk to *anyone* over 18 from a vaccination is vanishingly tiny (and smaller than the risk of non-trivial effects of contracting covid for most, if not all, of the 18-60 year-olds). I've re-(re-)read Terry's post and I see what you mean about wording of the first point!


----------



## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I really don't agree about the under 60's bit either!



You agree you got a bit confused previously though?

I would probably agree on under 60's too, I would put that number at under 40's probably, at least for this first round of vaccination/herd immunity. In the future that might change.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> You agree you got a bit confused previously though?
> ....


The wording has a lack of clarity, I had to read it several times!


----------



## Trainee neophyte (6 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Trolling, in other words.


I thought I was gently teasing, in a good natured ribbing sort of way. I apologise unreservedly if it was anything else. It certainly wasn't _intended_ to be a bona fide trolling attempt. I'll let you know if I am ever clever enough to attempt one of those.


----------



## Garno (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I agree and I apologise for any trouble caused @Garno
> @RobinBHM lets just agree to disagree on all things C19, I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine and the world will be a happier place. Deal?



@Rorschach Thank you, It caused no trouble but it was heading in that direction, as far as I am aware nobody had reported anything but I think I was not too far from doing so.
We have had a lot of good posts within this thread including some from both yourself and @RobinBHM and it would be a shame for it to be closed, I for one, have enjoyed when people let us know when they are having a jab, I also enjoy when people let us know they are not having one albeit I struggle to understand the reasoning. Thank you very much @Noel for stamping out a potential problem as fast as you did.


----------



## selectortone (6 Feb 2021)

Had my jab (OxAZ) at 11:00 this morning at my local doctors surgery. I was massively impressed with the organisation. The last time I was there, about a month ago, there was a huge queue in the car park for flu jabs and one harrassed woman at the reception desk completely overwhelmed, so I was expecting the worst. This time it was the exact opposite - volunteer marshalls guiding people smoothly through a one way system. I was in and out in five minutes. Advice was not to drive for 15 minutes, otherwise you're free to go. Amazing - made me even more proud of my NHS. The jab itself was entirely painless.

As to side-effects, none so far. Possibly a tiny bit of ache in my arm, but I get aches and pains worse than that mowing the lawn, vacuuming or doing too much turning.

Ten out of ten. Back of the net.


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

.


Rorschach said:


> I agree and I apologise for any trouble caused @Garno
> @RobinBHM lets just agree to disagree on all things C19, I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine and the world will be a happier place. Deal?


Yes indeed, Deal


----------



## doctor Bob (6 Feb 2021)

Just about 500k first jabs figures


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## Inspector (6 Feb 2021)

My wife was among the first here to get jabbed, a nurse, but I don't expect to get one until deep into the summer if at all this year. The entire country has given out just over one million doses and this province will have only given 50,000 people their two shots by the end of March. There's only a million of us in this one. Good news is the clinical trials of a locally developed vaccine got under way this past week and hopefully will be in production by the end of the year. There is no vaccine production in the country of any kind and we have to rely on importing them so having a home grown product will be welcomed. I wonder  if it is grain  based?

Pete


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## Deadeye (6 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> What you just said is how I read the point, C19 is more dangerous than vaccine for over 60's, (potentially) less dangerous for under 60.



The data simply don't support that regarding the under 60s. Having the vaccination is orders of magnitude less risky than catching covid, even if you are a 25 year old in perfect (otherwise) health. Where on earth are people getting the idea that either Covid is fine if you're under 60, or that the vaccine is risky, or both?


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## selectortone (6 Feb 2021)

Deadeye said:


> ....Where on earth are people getting the idea that either Covid is fine if you're under 60, or that the vaccine is risky, or both?


The answer to that is to be found in the "Another Joke" thread:


----------



## Rorschach (6 Feb 2021)

Deadeye said:


> The data simply don't support that regarding the under 60s. Having the vaccination is orders of magnitude less risky than catching covid, even if you are a 25 year old in perfect (otherwise) health. Where on earth are people getting the idea that either Covid is fine if you're under 60, or that the vaccine is risky, or both?



Go back a few more posts and my post will make more sense.


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## Nick Laguna UK (6 Feb 2021)

Just as an update as I said I would, my daughter hasn't been feeling 100% since the AZ jab yesterday and spent a lot of time today back in bed with a headache and some chills which a hot afternoon bath with her music blaring out sorted, but these are really just minor side effects we guess and not concerning to us - we know when she's really ill and this was not really ill.. She's a lot back to normal tonight which is good news & we are still v glad she has had it.
Guy down the CO-OP earlier in his 70's also said he hasn't been too well either with a few chills etc after having it yesterday too. I said same as my daughter - he was well enough to be out shopping so not that bad as he agreed, think he just wanted some re-assurance that maybe there are some initial effects that people get.


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Feb 2021)

Nick Laguna UK said:


> Just as an update as I said I would, my daughter hasn't been feeling 100% since the AZ jab yesterday and spent a lot of time today back in bed with a headache and some chills which a hot afternoon bath with her music blaring out sorted, but these are really just minor side effects we guess and not concerning to us - we know when she's really ill and this was not really ill.. She's a lot back to normal tonight which is good news & we are still v glad she has had it.
> Guy down the CO-OP earlier in his 70's also said he hasn't been too well either with a few chills etc after having it yesterday too. I said same as my daughter - he was well enough to be out shopping so not that bad as he agreed, think he just wanted some re-assurance that maybe there are some initial effects that people get.


I'm glad to hear your daughter is feeling better this evening. My MIL had the jab nearly 3 weeks back, it's reassuring to know immunity is building each day.


----------



## Jonm (7 Feb 2021)

Deadeye said:


> Jon
> 
> I expect you mean well - but please don't suggest that the tragedy of thalidomide is comparable in any way.
> 
> ...


Hi
I did not actually compare the COVID vaccine to thalidomide, they are obviously completely different things. I was making the point that medicines have been approved in the past and found to have adverse unexpected effects and used thalidomide as an example of this because it is so well known.

A few people have expressed their concerns to me that the short timescale is insufficient for any long term adverse effects to develop. I was actually responding to a post which expressed that concern.

As someone with those concerns I set out my logic for taking the vaccine. Every other vaccine I have taken (and there have been many) has had a long track record of previous use.


----------



## Mark Hancock (7 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> Hi
> I did not actually compare the COVID vaccine to thalidomide, they are obviously completely different things. I was making the point that medicines have been approved in the past and found to have adverse unexpected effects and used thalidomide as an example of this because it is so well known.
> 
> A few people have expressed their concerns to me that the short timescale is insufficient for any long term adverse effects to develop. I was actually responding to a post which expressed that concern.
> ...


Maybe this will reassure you Claim: Vaccines were rushed, and might be unsafe


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## Chris152 (7 Feb 2021)

I think it's now clear we need to do more to stop the variant found in S Africa, and any others. (FT report on O/AZ vaccine, last night.) We need a full lock down of all but essential services for 3 weeks while we properly find and try to stop the variant, and ongoing full control of borders/ quarantine til we know more. Obviously it won't happen, but that's what I reckon we need.


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## Rorschach (7 Feb 2021)

Mark Hancock said:


> Maybe this will reassure you Claim: Vaccines were rushed, and might be unsafe



I am certainly pro-vax as I have said many times and I don't think the rushing through makes it unsafe. That being said there is nothing wrong with having concerns about long term effects as there is simply no data (and no way to get the data) on this. Lets say for example having the C19 vaccine makes your ears fall off in 20 years, we can't predict that now. The same of course could be said for catching C19, it could also make your ears fall off in 20 years. We learn all the time, just look at HPV, it took a long time before we realised that having the infection caused a increased risk of cervical cancer.

On balance the vaccine is almost certainly good, especially for the elderly and those vulnerable to serious illness or death from C19, but for the young and healthy, it is far from clear cut.


----------



## Chris152 (7 Feb 2021)

We need to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible, all ages. The higher the case load, the more opportunity for mutation. At the moment, younger people can say they're relatively safe, but it doesn't have to stay that way - it's already mutated into forms that spread more easily and are more deadly, as far as I can tell (a punter who knows nothing) there's nothing to say the virus can't become still more of a threat and that it won't mutate into a form that kills young people efficiently. In which case, the current situation could look like just a beginning, and a missed opportunity.


----------



## Rorschach (7 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> We need to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible, all ages. The higher the case load, the more opportunity for mutation. At the moment, younger people can say they're relatively safe, but it doesn't have to stay that way - it's already mutated into forms that spread more easily and are more deadly, as far as I can tell (a punter who knows nothing) there's nothing to say the virus can't become still more of a threat and that it won't mutate into a form that kills young people efficiently. In which case, the current situation could look like just a beginning, and a missed opportunity.



Highly unlikely, viruses mutate to spread more easily but less deadly, it's not in their interest to be more deadly, especially to the young.


----------



## Chris152 (7 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Highly unlikely, viruses mutate to spread more easily but less deadly, it's not in their interest to be more deadly, especially to the young.


Yes, but this one's already mutated to become more deadly, apparently.


----------



## Rorschach (7 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Yes, but this one's already mutated to become more deadly, apparently.



Key word, apparently, and it's been played down by scientists because it's really difficult to say if it is actually more deadly, a lot of it depends on how you measure it. Remember, we don't really know how deadly the "original" virus is, so a comparison is pretty tricky.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> We need to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible, all ages. The higher the case load, the more opportunity for mutation. At the moment, younger people can say they're relatively safe, but it doesn't have to stay that way - it's already mutated into forms that spread more easily and are more deadly, as far as I can tell (a punter who knows nothing) there's nothing to say the virus can't become still more of a threat and that it won't mutate into a form that kills young people efficiently. In which case, the current situation could look like just a beginning, and a missed opportunity.


Yes, it's a race against time now.

Scientists do seem to be saying we need to vaccinate pretty much the whole population before any mutations happen and spread into the community.

The particular concern is a mutation comes along that the vaccine is not effective against, then the vaccine programme would be delayed.

I believe the current programme is to vaccinate everybody over 18


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Yes, but this one's already mutated to become more deadly, apparently.


Certainly the Kent variant is the reason for most of the numbers in this current wave.

It's certainly causing more people and younger people to be hospitalised.

Hospital admissions are the most accurate indicator.....and they do tell us the variant is causing huge pressure on ICU capacity.


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## Chris152 (7 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> The particular concern is a mutation comes along that the vaccine is not effective against, then the vaccine programme would be delayed.


See my post earlier this morning about the FT report on O/AZ efficacy against the SA variant. There, I offer my expert opinion on what we need to do next.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> See my post earlier this morning about the FT report on O/AZ efficacy against the SA variant. There, I offer my expert opinion on what we need to do next.


The govt have put in mass testing into parts of UKmwhere the African variant has been found.

We don't know whether they are doing this for data to understand more or whether they are desperate to eliminate it, but either way, I would say the scientists are worried.


----------



## Chris152 (7 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> The govt have put in mass testing into parts of UKmwhere the African variant has been found.
> 
> We don't know whether they are doing this for data to understand more or whether they are desperate to eliminate it, but either way, I would say the scientists are worried.


Yep, there's evidence of community transmission and I'd say the current measures are inadequate to stopping its spread. Giving today's news, that should concern us in relation to the effectiveness of the vaccine programme.


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## Jonm (7 Feb 2021)

Mark Hancock said:


> Maybe this will reassure you Claim: Vaccines were rushed, and might be unsafe


Thank you for the info, all very re-assuring.


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## Terry - Somerset (7 Feb 2021)

We are fed lies, distortions, irrelevancies, selective statistics etc by the media and politicians. Unsurprising that the public increasingly question anything they are told.

Sadly this extends to science, thus far largely uncontaminated by political and media behaviours.

A rational examination of risk and consequences would make vaccine an undeniable choice for all ages. But individuals are not rationalists - they make choices based on emotion, suspicion, lack of intellect etc. 

Reluctance by some to be vaccinated is understandable, even if irrational.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Feb 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> We are fed lies, distortions, irrelevancies, selective statistics etc by the media and politicians. Unsurprising that the public increasingly question anything they are told.
> 
> Sadly this extends to science, thus far largely uncontaminated by political and media behaviours.
> 
> ...



It is difficult.

The media publish stories that grab attention.

That means controversial studies, conspiracists, emotive images get all the attention.

"Vaccines working well, all is going to plan" is not exciting

"Vaccines might kill people says new study" far more exciting.


----------



## Rorschach (7 Feb 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> A rational examination of risk and consequences would make vaccine an undeniable choice for all ages.



I have to take issue there Terry, that simply isn't the case. Undeniable for some ages/groups, but blanket across the population you just can't say, at least not yet with the data available.


----------



## Jonm (7 Feb 2021)

[


Rorschach said:


> Key word, apparently, and it's been played down by scientists because it's really difficult to say if it is actually more deadly, a lot of it depends on how you measure it. Remember, we don't really know how deadly the "original" virus is, so a comparison is pretty tricky.


It is widely reported that the new uk strain spreads more easily and that alone has meant that more people have died. Whether someone is more likely to die once they have caught it Is debatable. More people have died as a result if this variant so to me that makes it more deadly.


----------



## Rorschach (7 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> [
> 
> It is widely reported that the new uk strain spreads more easily and that alone has meant that more people have died. Whether someone is more likely to die once they have caught it Is debatable. More people have died as a result if this variant so to me that makes it more deadly.



That's fine you can look at it like that but it wasn't what I took from Chris's comment, it seemed to me he meant more deadly in the sense of the IFR which is unknown, indeed we don't even know the real IFR of "original" C19.


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## Billy_wizz (7 Feb 2021)

selectortone said:


> The answer to that is to be found in the "Another Joke" thread:
> 
> View attachment 102879


Or intentionally ignored because it goes contrary to there theory! Look at the great fat debacle as proof scientists lie and support each other in there lies the scientist that decided that fat was bad for you had data from over 30 countries but only included the data from the 3 or 4 countries that supported his hypothesis and anyone who went against it was ridiculed and no one in the scientific community called him out for picking and choosing which data he used!


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## Droogs (7 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Highly unlikely, viruses mutate to spread more easily but less deadly, it's not in their interest to be more deadly, especially to the young.


And you know that they (virus's) know this for a fact and that they make a conscientious effort to make sure they only mutate to be more infectious, how?
Are you secretly a genetic virologist and not telling us so know for sure that this virus is not in any way harmful to the young after all once they hit 50, who give a sh 1 te if they then have major (expencsive/lethal) complications in later life, after all anyone over 50 has a worth of zero to society as far as you are concerned. Rorscharch you come out with such unbelievably naive and proto facist statements, I rally do wonder what they put in your water


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## Woody2Shoes (7 Feb 2021)

Droogs said:


> And you know that they (virus's) know this for a fact and that they make a conscientious effort to make sure they only mutate to be more infectious, how?
> Are you secretly a genetic virologist and not telling us so know for sure that this virus is not in any way harmful to the young after all once they hit 50, who give a sh 1 te if they then have major (expencsive/lethal) complications in later life, after all anyone over 50 has a worth of zero to society as far as you are concerned. Rorscharch you come out with such unbelievably naive and proto facist statements, I rally do wonder what they put in your water


All things being equal, a very deadly virus doesn't get the chance to spread much - it disables/kills its host before that host has had much of a chance to spread the virus around the community (e.g. Ebola is/was terrifyingly good at knocking people to the ground). In simple mathematical terms there is a trade-off between transmissibility and deadliness - they work against each other. The fly in the ointment is where you have a viral strain which is deadlier, but with a delayed reaction - which still allows spreading of the virus. I suppose epidemiologists therefore have (at least!) three key factors in their models to represent:
1) How likely it is to spread from one person to another;
2) How likely it is to seriously incapacitate/kill/maim an infected person;
3) The way 1 and 2 are modified by a delay between having the virus without symptoms and subsequently developing symptoms.

I think that is has been factor 3 that has been a real problem with Covid - the way the virus can spread between individuals, while both are unaware, is a very difficult thing - almost by definition - to get a grip on.


----------



## Blackswanwood (7 Feb 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> We are fed lies, distortions, irrelevancies, selective statistics etc by the media and politicians. Unsurprising that the public increasingly question anything they are told.



Good job they can always dip into a woodworking forum to get the facts


----------



## Amateur (7 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Vaccines working well, all is going to plan" is not exciting



Or as the BBC report on tv tonight a study of 2000 people found it didn't work.
...but they didn't quite put it out like that.

Then the EU doing the same en block, Spain being the latest country willing to sacrifice lives for what appears to be an EU directive not to use the vaccine on certain age groups.
And both reports about the UK developed vaccine.


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## Sandyn (7 Feb 2021)

Just back from getting vaccinated. Was a very slick operation. Well done to the NHS and all the volunteers. I am extremely grateful to have been vaccinated so soon. I am also very aware of all the work that has gone into developing these vaccines in such a short time. I'm sure many people have given up their personal/family time to expedite development.
For me, there was never any doubt about getting vaccinated. If you are older and get Covid, it's a bit of a lottery. It must be so scary for families who have watched a loved one being taken away in an ambulance. So many times they just don't return. It must equally be terrifying for someone who is put on a ventilator not knowing if they will ever waken up again. 
I did not want to get ill or get long Covid. I was pretty convinced that I would really suffer, or possibly die if I caught Covid. I am ultra fit, but really suffer badly if I get flu or bad colds, especially if they go into my chest. 
Apart from my 'selfish' reasons for wanting the vaccination, it is very important for me to protect others around me. I would really hate to unknowingly pass on the virus to someone else who then dies.
I got the Pfizer vaccine, the technology or the scare stories about possible unknown long term effects just don't worry me one bit!. Everything in life caries risk and life itself is a terminal disease. I believe that any personal risk is far outweighed by the benefits to all of us. 
I have also volunteered to take part in follow up research on the vaccines to monitor effectiveness and any side effects, so that any trends can be spotted as early as possible.


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## Amateur (7 Feb 2021)

When you look round at other countries I feel proud of the UK people, government and planners who have made this all possible.
Let's hope the country prosperous out of lockdown.


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## doctor Bob (7 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> When you look round at other countries I feel proud of the UK people, government and planners who have made this all possible.
> Let's hope the country prosperous out of lockdown.


Absolutely agree. Trouble is it’s viewed as politics by a lot and therefore cannot be acknowledged as a positive.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (7 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> When you look round at other countries I feel proud of the UK people, government and planners who have made this all possible.
> Let's hope the country prosperous out of lockdown.


I strongly agree with you as far as the people, the scientists/technicians/medics/etc, the civil servants, the NHS and military planners who are making this hugely impressive logistical exercise work, but not as far as the politicians.


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## doctor Bob (7 Feb 2021)

People vaccinated
First dose total
12,014,288

Second dose total
511,447


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## NormanB (7 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Or as the BBC report on tv tonight a study of 2000 people found it didn't work.
> ...but they didn't quite put it out like that.
> 
> Then the EU doing the same en block, Spain being the latest country willing to sacrifice lives for what appears to be an EU directive not to use the vaccine on certain age groups.
> And both reports about the UK developed vaccine.


The EMA has approved both the Pfizer and AstraZenica vaccine for use without caveat. Individual EU countries are of course free to set their own Public Health policy and that’s what they are doing.


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## NormanB (7 Feb 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I strongly agree with you as far as the people, the scientists/technicians/medics/etc, the civil servants, the NHS and military planners who are making this hugely impressive logistical exercise work, but not as far as the politicians.


And the funny thing is the politicians are the only ones of that list that have to make the really difficult and conflicted decisions. Go figure.


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## Jake (8 Feb 2021)

So far, the vaccine roll-out is a real success. The first one we've had, but a good one to have.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Or as the BBC report on tv tonight a study of 2000 people found it didn't work.
> ...but they didn't quite put it out like that.
> 
> Then the EU doing the same en block, Spain being the latest country willing to sacrifice lives for what appears to be an EU directive not to use the vaccine on certain age groups.
> And both reports about the UK developed vaccine.


I assume you are talking about the South African Covid variant and the Astra Zeneca vaccine. Reduced effectiveness against mild and moderate disease for a variant which is not yet prevalent ib the UK is not the same as “does not work”. 

The AZ vaccine has now been given to millions of UK citizens, mostly over 65, We will soon find out of it is effective particularly at reducing hospital admissions, deaths and serious disease.


----------



## Rorschach (8 Feb 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I strongly agree with you as far as the people, the scientists/technicians/medics/etc, the civil servants, the NHS and military planners who are making this hugely impressive logistical exercise work, but not as far as the politicians.



I have no great love for politicians but all those people you mention would have done diddly squat unless the politicians made the money available and set things in motion.


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## Steve_Scott (8 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Highly unlikely, viruses mutate to spread more easily but less deadly, it's not in their interest to be more deadly, especially to the young.


This is nonsense, the virus mutates because of random errors in replication... it’s not actively trying to make itself more or less deadly or easier to transmit. However, if a random mutation gives a new strain an advantage (such as immunity to a pre existing vaccine, asymptomatic infection etc, then that strain will tend to spread.


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## Rorschach (8 Feb 2021)

Steve_Scott said:


> This is nonsense, the virus mutates because of random errors in replication... it’s not actively trying to make itself more or less deadly or easier to transmit. However, if a random mutation gives a new strain an advantage (such as immunity to a pre existing vaccine, asymptomatic infection etc, then that strain will tend to spread.



Well of course I know viruses don't consciously mutate with some grand master plan in mind. It's just simpler to explain if you anthropomorphise the virus.


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## Chris152 (8 Feb 2021)

From what I remember of o-level biology (just to lay my credentials on the line) the logic of efficient parasites is that they don't kill the host. It relies on the fact that hosts are finite/ limited in numbers and that to thrive, the parasite needs them alive. That's the logic that seems to inform the 'not in the virus's interest to become more deadly' argument, which may well be true - tho it does suggest an intentionality, which isn't. However, when you have a massive over-population of hosts (humans, for example) this hardly enters the equation. 

But a virus isn't a parasite. It isn't even 'alive'. And this virus spreads easily so will find plenty of hosts until the abundance of 'hosts' declines. So for the moment, it's of no consequence whether the virus kills its host, as it will continue to spread regardless of whether or not it mutates randomly into something more deadly.
So it becomes increasingly important to stop the spread of variants that can get around the vaccines, and stronger measures are needed for that.

Obviously I'll be submitting my o-level analysis of the current state of affairs to SAGE, and you'll be hearing more about it in due course.


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## Amateur (8 Feb 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Absolutely agree. Trouble is it’s viewed as politics by a lot and therefore cannot be acknowledged as a positive.



And how sad is that?
So much has changed in my lifetime.
One of the big things is the failure to stand up and be proud of the countries achievements.
How anyone can find that a political concern beats me, but you are probably correct.


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## Amateur (8 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> assume you are talking about the South African Covid variant and the Astra Zeneca vaccine. Reduced effectiveness against mild and moderate disease for a variant which is not yet prevalent ib the UK is not the same as “does not work”.



Exactly. I'm converted. 
Maybe the media don't report as simplistically and it will be misconstrued by many of the population as being non effective of cv19.
Already reports are having to be put out to assure the public the vaccine they have been given are effective against the cv19 strain.
There always seen to be an angle of sensationalism in reporting these days, as if they want to start conflict in what is a very difficult time for everybody.

Just my view you understand. I stand to be corrected.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> And the funny thing is the politicians are the only ones of that list that have to make the really difficult and conflicted decisions. Go figure.


I think that with regard to the vaccine rollout the only slightly difficult decision the politicians had to make was to commit to spending our money buying a vaccine which they did not know would be used. This enabled the manufacturers to proceed with setting up their processes to enable speedy delivery of the vaccine once it was approved. That was hardly a difficult decision given the state the country was in when the decision was made.

I agree that throughout this pandemic the politicians have had to make “really difficult and conflicted decisions” but this was not one of them.


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## Woody2Shoes (8 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> And the funny thing is the politicians are the only ones of that list that have to make the really difficult and conflicted decisions. Go figure.


The trouble with the mendacious space-chimps in the cabinet is that they all have a degree in the wrong kind of PPE !

PS It is (as per usual) the people at the sharp end who are often having to make the difficult and conflicted decisions, because others delayed theirs.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Exactly. I'm converted.
> Maybe the media don't report as simplistically and it will be misconstrued by many of the population as being non effective of cv19.
> Already reports are having to be put out to assure the public the vaccine they have been given are effective against the cv19 strain.
> There always seen to be an angle of sensationalism in reporting these days, as if they want to start conflict in what is a very difficult time for everybody.
> ...


I agree with you. These issues are complicated and media sensationalism does not help. The BBC report on the AZ vaccine and South African variant was not sensationalist but it was difficult to understand, I had to explain it to a family member.


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## Chris152 (8 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> I agree with you. These issues are complicated and media sensationalism does not help. The BBC report on the AZ vaccine and South African variant was not sensationalist but it was difficult to understand, I had to explain it to a family member.


The bit I found difficult to understand was 'limited' effectiveness against mild to moderate illness, which through the day in different reports became 'minimal' and then 'very minimal' this morning. I guess they didn't know the actual figure, which on R4 this morning was identified as about 10% effective at resisting mild to moderate, but the signs that it'll stop severe illness are still good, but awaiting confirmation.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

Now three days since AZ vaccination, only side effect is very slight ache in arm. My wife had her inoculation two days ago and similar side effect.

Nothing like pulling a kicker board off a kitchen cabinet and getting my little finger trapped on the bottom edge of the door. Still got the blackened fingernail.


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## Spectric (8 Feb 2021)

Hi all

Yes it is great that vaccination is progressing but at the same time our borders are wide open, they are all focused on the south african variant which has already landed but what about other strains that are brewing in places that do not have the ability to categorise them and which could also arrive.

Then the government has decided not to issue vaccine passports, probably on the basis of cost and that they do not want another disasterous fiasco on their hands but will this mean that for those who go abroad on holiday they will need to pay for a doctors letter to certify they have been done.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> The bit I found difficult to understand was 'limited' effectiveness against mild to moderate illness, which through the day in different reports became 'minimal' and then 'very minimal' this morning. I guess they didn't know the actual figure, which on R4 this morning was identified as about 10% effective at resisting mild to moderate, but the signs that it'll stop severe illness are still good, but awaiting confirmation.


Thank you for the update, I looked up moderate disease and it is, cough with a little soreness but not pain, temperature, breathless on exercise, tiredness, headache, diarrhoea. Lasts 7-14 days. Not pleasant but nothing to fear for most of us and no hospitalisation. 

At present the South African strain is not prevalent in uk and strenuous efforts are being made to contain it. Let us hope it can be contained. In the meantime the AZ vaccine should work well on the strains the vast majority will encounter in the UK. A modification to the AZ vaccine to deal with the SA strain has been designed and could be available in the autumn.

At the moment the Pfizer vaccine looks better than the AZ. However Phiser is about eight times more expensive than AZ and more importantly requires keeping at -70 deg C. If we are to inoculate the 1.6 billion slum dwellers it is vaccines like AZ that will do it as they can be kept at normal refrigerator temperatures. Fail to vaccinate the world and we will have variants coming back to plague us.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> When you look round at other countries I feel proud of the UK people, government and planners who have made this all possible.
> Let's hope the country prosperous out of lockdown.


Talking about the vaccine rollout I agree.

Pity we did not do as well as other island nations on containing the disease.
Japan, total population 138m , capital city population 38m , Covid deaths per million of population 50.

UK, total population 66m, capital city population 13m, Covid deaths per million of population 1651.


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## Rorschach (8 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> Talking about the vaccine rollout I agree.
> 
> Pity we did not do as well as other island nations on containing the disease.
> Japan, total population 138m , capital city population 38m , Covid deaths per million of population 50.
> ...



I get sick of posts like these, you cannot compare countries like for like so easily so stop doing it.

Also this is getting off topic for vaccination.


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## Amateur (8 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> Pity we did not do as well as other island nations on containing the disease.
> Japan, total population 138m , capital city population 38m , Covid deaths per million of population 50.




The press and forums here was filled with accusations against our government for its efforts, lets not forget.
Scathing comments in fact.
However, millions of the population decided not to social distance, said it was just like flu, and even today are refusing to wear protective masks.
The reports that young people were not affected by the virus fueled conspiracy theories.
In fact I would go as far as to say that we are unique when faced with our daily life being disrupted.
We trust no one, and believe nothing. Everyone is wrong and we are right. We argue and fight with each other, rip each other to pieces but let outside forces cross us and we band together, like best mates to fight the foe.
Its something in our genes. Must be?
Different culture and mentality in Japan and maybe not a good comparison to use?
Little wonder it spread like wild fire here.
Maybe the climate had something to do with it?
Even with a quick start where has it got countries?
Look at Germany.
Started off well, took their eye of the ball.
1966 all over again.


Yes the government were slow to react but what sensible business would jump in feet first without taking time to asses the situation before putting together a plan.?
In the longer term it has payed off. So far.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I get sick of posts like these, you cannot compare countries like for like so easily so stop doing it.
> 
> Also this is getting off topic for vaccination.


Of course japan is a very different country to uk but it does demonstrate what a densely populated advanced island nation can achieve. Our death rate is extremely high compared to all advanced countries and our urgent need for a vaccine is because of this so it is reasonably on topic.

As for your “so stop doing it” that is bossy and impolite, if I wish to compare UK to other nations I will do so.


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## Rorschach (8 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> Of course japan is a very different country to uk but it does demonstrate what a densely populated advanced island nation can achieve. Our death rate is extremely high compared to all advanced countries and our urgent need for a vaccine is because of this so it is reasonably on topic.
> 
> As for your “so stop doing it” that is bossy and impolite, if I wish to compare UK to other nations I will do so.



You can achieve anything if the conditions are suitable for it. The conditions is every country are different so comparisons are all but meaningless.

Bossy and impolite I may be but this is the not the thread for country comparisons, it's for talk about vaccines. If you want to have a pointless conversation comparing countries start your own thread on it.


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## Jonm (8 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> You can achieve anything if the conditions are suitable for it. The conditions is every country are different so comparisons are all but meaningless.
> 
> Bossy and impolite I may be but this is the not the thread for country comparisons, it's for talk about vaccines. If you want to have a pointless conversation comparing countries start your own thread on it.


Time to draw a line under this discussion, no doubt we are boring everyone else, so I will stop responding. I will not tell you what you should do.


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## selectortone (8 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> Time to draw a line under this discussion



I respectfully disagree. (Best just not to take the bait.) I think it's been very useful for those with concerns about the various vaccines, and has allowed those of us who have actually had the jab to share our experiences.

I had my jab (Oxford/AstraZeneca) on Saturday and apart from a little soreness/stiffness in my arm, and a little tiredness, I have been fine.

As to the latest reports of the AZ vaccine's efficiency - although appears it might not be very effective against a moderate infection of the SA variant, it is still reported as effective against serious infection. I can handle a moderate infection. If the vaccine continues to keep me, and oldies like me, out of hospital it continues to get my thumbs up (for what that's worth).


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## Sandyn (9 Feb 2021)

Well, two days since my wife and I received the Pfizer Vaccination and apart from a slightly sore arm for a day, We have had no other side effects. My arm wasn't as sore as when I received the flu jab at the end of last year.


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## Lons (9 Feb 2021)

Sandyn said:


> Well, two days since my wife and I received the Pfizer Vaccination and apart from a slightly sore arm for a day, We have had no other side effects. My arm wasn't as sore as when I received the flu jab at the end of last year.


I had a sore arm for a week last flu injection which was unusual for me, I'm booked in for the Pfizer jab late tomorrow, they're doing a remarkable job getting the vaccine out.


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## NormanB (9 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> I think that with regard to the vaccine rollout the only slightly difficult decision the politicians had to make was to commit to spending our money buying a vaccine which they did not know would be used. This enabled the manufacturers to proceed with setting up their processes to enable speedy delivery of the vaccine once it was approved. That was hardly a difficult decision given the state the country was in when the decision was made.
> 
> I agree that throughout this pandemic the politicians have had to make “really difficult and conflicted decisions” but this was not one of them.


I was not including the vaccine task group in my statement of difficult decisions but the whole raft of other ones. The various degrees of lockdowns, schools, borders, economy, financial support to business and individuals et al.


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## NormanB (9 Feb 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> The trouble with the mendacious space-chimps in the cabinet is that they all have a degree in the wrong kind of PPE !
> 
> PS It is (as per usual) the people at the sharp end who are often having to make the difficult and conflicted decisions, because others delayed theirs.


The sharp end are not making ‘difficult and conflicted decisions’, they are doing their normal jobs in difficult and demanding circumstances.


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## Chris152 (9 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> The sharp end are not doing making ‘difficult and conflicted decisions’, they are doing their normal jobs in difficult and demanding circumstances.


Many aren't doing their normal jobs at all, as they've had to retrain to work with covid patients; and I'd have thought decisions like not treating patients with potentially terminal illnesses in order to treat patients in immanent danger on the covid wards is, indeed, rather difficult and conflicting?


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## Deadeye (9 Feb 2021)

For anyone concerned about having got the AZ vaccine given recent news, I think you should be reassured:
- the available evidence still shows very good efficacy in preventing hospitalisation
- there are purposeful discussions ongoing about varying the second dose to a different vaccine. There are pros and cons to doing that, but I'd say the pros are seen as greater at the moment; trials have started
- there's a very short cycle time to create vaccine variants, especially for the Pfizer and BioNTech technology. Given that regular repeat vaccination is very likely to be needed (like 'flu), people will get updated jabs

The macro picture is that the monitoring, updating and delivering processes will all become more slick. 
It's great to see the uptake in the groups so far - the wisdom of the elderly.


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## Phill05 (9 Feb 2021)

Booked in for my jab on Thursday.


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## Retired (9 Feb 2021)

Hi,

I was one of those who thought the vaccine had been rushed through and might end up like another Thalidomide problem but it's now been tested on over 10 million here in the UK so I was happy to receive my Zeneca jab last Saturday night at 7:35. Driving conditions were appalling; flooded roads saw the Yeti sending up huge sprays as it hit the many deep puddles and it was absolutely bucketing down with rain whilst like driving in a black hole. I can't stand football so with my luck I attended John Smiths Stadium the first time in my life I've ever set foot inside such a stadium so here I am with football possibly saving my life so I'm grateful. 

The car park was awash with heavy driven rain and I felt very sorry indeed for the car park attendants out is such atrocious conditions; I had a short "follow the yellow brick road" to enter the building and was greeted by a pleasant guy taking my details then allowed forward; just a couple in front of me both needing jabs; I added gel to my hands and rubbed it in also of course I was wearing a mask. A young lady then took me to the vaccination booth and I was greeted by three lovely ladies; my details were again checked as we shared a laugh it all being very pleasant indeed; I removed my dripping wet heavy Parka and rolled up my left sleeve before sitting down again; at this point I placed a box of Milk Tray chocolates on the table which delighted the ladies; the jab was virtually painless just a prick in the arm; I was then given a small card stating I'd had my first jab and I had already arranged my second jab for 25th April; jab sorted in very little time.

The exit was between the football pitch and stands; I was let out by another cheerful guy on door duty; outside I'd lost directions as to where the car was parked; it was still bucketing down with rain and incredibly dark; I had the parka hood over my head but my trousers and shoes were soaking wet also it was perishingly cold as I finally reached the car. I'm usually a good driver but backing the car out proved difficult due to mirrors and windows awash with rain but in no time at all it was snowing heavily; what a dreadful journey.

I'm mightily impressed by ALL THE FRONT LINE who are doing a remarkable job and I often dislike our government but full credit to our government too for rolling out the vaccine program and having millions receive their jabs in such a short period of time. 

Like others have stated the only side effect was a very dull ache in my arm rather like the effect of gently bumping into something; no pain as such I could just feel it and no inconvenience at all.

I've rambled on because in spite of my initial reticence about the jab I'd recommend everyone to accept the jab as quickly as they can then perhaps we can get the country up and running again. There's absolutely nothing scary or to worry about in having the jab.

Kind regards, Colin.


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## RobinBHM (9 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> 1.6 billion slum dwellers


My house is a bit messy this week, but there's no need to talk about me like that.


----------



## NormanB (9 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Many aren't doing their normal jobs at all, as they've had to retrain to work with covid patients; and I'd have thought decisions like not treating patients with potentially terminal illnesses in order to treat patients in immanent danger on the covid wards is, indeed, rather difficult and conflicting?


It’s standard work for doctors and nurses - just in difficult and demanding circumstances - what conflicts are you imagining.


----------



## RobinBHM (9 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> Our death rate is extremely high compared to all advanced countries and our urgent need for a vaccine is because of this


indeed.

Although cultural and demographic differences make country comparisons, nevertheless its fair to say on almost every metric apart from vaccine roll out the UK has performed pretty miserably. 

And yes, I would agree: the UK has perhaps the most urgent need to roll out vaccines.

the govt has done focus groups and the thing that came out most was rate of vaccine roll out -my guess is this government has thrown the kitchen sink at any short cut to get the vaccines approved and rolled out with one key strategy: to be the first, which is a political winner. So far as a covid strategy it is also a winner, lets hope taking shortcut has any come backs.


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## RobinBHM (9 Feb 2021)

Retired said:


> I placed a box of Milk Tray chocolates on the table


Top man -I hadnt considered doing that

great post too.


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## Jonm (9 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Many aren't doing their normal jobs at all, as they've had to retrain to work with covid patients; and I'd have thought decisions like not treating patients with potentially terminal illnesses in order to treat patients in immanent danger on the covid wards is, indeed, rather difficult and conflicting?


Chris
Spot on, I was about to make that very point.


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## Jonm (9 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> I was not including the vaccine task group in my statement of difficult decisions but the whole raft of other ones. The various degrees of lockdowns, schools, borders, economy, financial support to business and individuals et al.


I agree with you but you were responding to Woody2shoes whose post was specifically about the vaccine rollout and I therefore deduced that you were referring to the vaccine rollout.


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## NormanB (9 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> It’s standard work for doctors and nurses - just in difficult and demanding circumstances - what conflicts are you imagining.


I did say ‘decisions’ rather than ‘decision’.


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## Jonm (9 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> My house is a bit messy this week, but there's no need to talk about me like that.


I am very impressed, you obviously read all of my long post.


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## Jonm (9 Feb 2021)

I am asking about the South African mutation. I appreciate that it is not widespread in uk at the moment and we need to proceed with the vaccination programme.

What I have trouble finding out is how effective the current vaccines are against the SA Variant. We know that a trial of 2000 people in SA for the AZ vaccine demonstrated that it was fairly ineffective in preventing mild or moderate disease and therefore probably not much use in reducing the spread of the virus. It is however said to produce antibodies and should be effective in reducing severe and acute disease and so reduce hospitalisation and deaths.

With reference to the Pfizer vaccine this is widely reported as being effective against the SA variant however, on closer reading it seems that laboratory tests that have been carried out and is expected to have reduced effectiveness. No trials have been done. Same comment applies to Moderna.

My suspicion is that the media has picked up on the trials of the AZ vaccine in SA . They have then picked up on reports that pfizer and Moderna work but not the caveats about reduced effectiveness and no trials. Never let the details get in the way of a good story.

Does anyone have any better insight in to this. I will continue to listen and follow what Professors Whitty and Van Tam are saying and take what the clown who stands between them with a pinch of salt.


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## Jonm (9 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> It’s standard work for doctors and nurses - just in difficult and demanding circumstances - what conflicts are you imagining.


How about, do I treat this elderly patient for COVID or the thirty year old, married with two children with cancer who will die if not treated. How long can I leave the thirty year old untreated before the cancer becomes terminal.

Seems difficult and conflicting to me.


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## NormanB (9 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> How about, do I treat this elderly patient for COVID or the thirty year old, married with two children with cancer who will die if not treated. How long can I leave the thirty year old untreated before the cancer becomes terminal.
> 
> Seems difficult and conflicting to me.


But standard medical decision matrix - however harsh and difficult.


----------



## Rorschach (9 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> How about, do I treat this elderly patient for COVID or the thirty year old, married with two children with cancer who will die if not treated. How long can I leave the thirty year old untreated before the cancer becomes terminal.
> 
> Seems difficult and conflicting to me.



Not difficult and any doctor will know how to deal with it. Make the elderly patient as comfortable as possible and when stable concentrate on the 30yr old. If you only have 1 bed and you are certain the 30yr old must be treated right now, they get the bed.


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## Chris152 (9 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Not difficult and any doctor will know how to deal with it. Make the elderly patient as comfortable as possible and when stable concentrate on the 30yr old. If you only have 1 bed and you are certain the 30yr old must be treated right now, they get the bed.


Truly astonished


----------



## Rorschach (9 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Truly astonished



You would let the young person die then?

EDIT: This has drifted off topic again. In brighter news, an excellent Tuesday for a change, case numbers very low indeed.


----------



## Chris152 (9 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> You would let the young person die then?


No, I'm just astonished at the ease with which you resolved a fundamental problem hospitals are facing at the mo. My mate's a consultant neurologist, had to undergo training to work with covid patients, leaving behind essential work he'd been doing and should still have been doing. That's both difficult and conflicting for him as he tries to sort his priorities. But I'll pass on your advice, he'll be delighted.


----------



## Garno (9 Feb 2021)

Retired said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was one of those who thought the vaccine had been rushed through and might end up like another Thalidomide problem but it's now been tested on over 10 million here in the UK so I was happy to receive my Zeneca jab last Saturday night at 7:35. Driving conditions were appalling; flooded roads saw the Yeti sending up huge sprays as it hit the many deep puddles and it was absolutely bucketing down with rain whilst like driving in a black hole. I can't stand football so with my luck I attended John Smiths Stadium the first time in my life I've ever set foot inside such a stadium so here I am with football possibly saving my life so I'm grateful.
> 
> ...



Wonderful post Colin, Thank you.


----------



## NormanB (9 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> No, I'm just astonished at the ease with which you resolved a fundamental problem hospitals are facing at the mo. My mate's a consultant neurologist, had to undergo training to work with covid patients, leaving behind essential work he'd been doing and should still have been doing. That's both difficult and conflicting for him as he tries to sort his priorities. But I'll pass on your advice, he'll be delighted.


And he will tell you that is part of the terrain Doctors are trained in and features throughout their practice. No suggestion it is easy - it’s in the job description.


----------



## Lons (9 Feb 2021)

NormanB said:


> And he will tell you that is part of the terrain Doctors are trained in and features throughout their practice. No suggestion it is easy - it’s in the job description.


Sorry Norman but I'd disagree with you there and with the benefit of having a fair number of relatives in the NHS.
Staff have been drafted in from all departments and areas many of whom are not at all used to nursing critically ill and dying patients and the emotional toll is huge, for anyone to say it's "part of their job description" or as someone else said " not difficult" is demeaning IMHO.

There are many staff in the NHS who never need to confront death or seriously ill patients during their normal accountabilities, orthopaedics, ENT, Maternity, there's a huge list. There's a reason HDU and intensive care staff get special training.


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## Jonm (9 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> No, I'm just astonished at the ease with which you resolved a fundamental problem hospitals are facing at the mo. My mate's a consultant neurologist, had to undergo training to work with covid patients, leaving behind essential work he'd been doing and should still have been doing. That's both difficult and conflicting for him as he tries to sort his priorities. But I'll pass on your advice, he'll be delighted.


The start of this discussion was a comment that it was only the politicians who had to make the difficult decisions not the nhs, technicians, civil servants. Perhaps your neurologist friend will have an opinion on that.


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## NormanB (10 Feb 2021)

Lons said:


> Sorry Norman but I'd disagree with you there and with the benefit of having a fair number of relatives in the NHS.
> Staff have been drafted in from all departments and areas many of whom are not at all used to nursing critically ill and dying patients and the emotional toll is huge, for anyone to say it's "part of their job description" or as someone else said " not difficult" is demeaning IMHO.
> 
> There are many staff in the NHS who never need to confront death or seriously ill patients during their normal accountabilities, orthopaedics, ENT, Maternity, there's a huge list. There's a reason HDU and intensive care staff get special training.


I have only recently retired from the NHS and was not seeking to be demeaning (but you have your opinion - fine).
I said, which you choose to pass over, they are doing their job in demanding and difficult circumstances. Doctors make ‘life and death’ decisions often - it is not something of a surprise to them nor are they ‘conflicted’.


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## Lons (10 Feb 2021)

Of course they do Norman and as I said I have a number of close family in front line NHS roles so I see what they do and also know how it affects them personally. my daughter was a specialist critical care nurse on HDU for a number of years and had to leave even though she knew what it entailed, my wife's uncle was a very senior heart consultant who specialised with children many of who he got too late to save, he coped by never getting close until he knew they would survive, not something I could do.

I stand by what I said though, large numbers of NHS staff are facing dying, critically ill patients because they've been drafted in to Covid units and it's well out of their comfort zone, I'd suggest that it's extremely rare for a doctor specialising in orthopaedics, ENT or maternity as well as other departments need to make a life or death decision.

it wasn't you who said "not difficult" the guy who said that has just given you a thumbs up and most people on here know what his opinion counts for.
I respect your opinion but disagree, not going to argue so as far as I'm concerned I'll draw a line under it and leave others to make their own minds up.


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## Rorschach (10 Feb 2021)

Lons said:


> Of course they do Norman and as I said I have a number of close family in front line NHS roles so I see what they do and also know how it affects them personally. my daughter was a specialist critical care nurse on HDU for a number of years and had to leave even though she knew what it entailed, my wife's uncle was a very senior heart consultant who specialised with children many of who he got too late to save, he coped by never getting close until he knew they would survive, not something I could do.
> 
> I stand by what I said though, large numbers of NHS staff are facing dying, critically ill patients because they've been drafted in to Covid units and it's well out of their comfort zone, I'd suggest that it's extremely rare for a doctor specialising in orthopaedics, ENT or maternity as well as other departments need to make a life or death decision.
> 
> ...




Oooh oooh oooh It's me! Do I get a prize?  

I agree there probably are people who have been transferred who are finding it difficult and may well reconsider their career choice as a result. I do have some sympathy with them, but not as much as I have for those who entire lives have been ruined as a result of the governments actions though.
FWIW I wouldn't count maternity in there, those working in maternity both midwives and doctors are some tough cookies who do indeed have to make life and death decisions every day involving young mothers and babies, I would wager that is probably a lot more difficult than working on a covid ward, a maternity ward would be the last place I would want to work. Look see, I'm not dead inside.


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## RobinBHM (10 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> but not as much as I have for those who entire lives have been ruined as a result of the governments actions though



It is the result of Covid, not government actions.


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## RobinBHM (10 Feb 2021)

Excellent news about the AZ vaccine:

WHO are recommending the AZ 2nd vaccine to be taken at 12 weeks 
And they also recommend the vaccine for over 65s

I've just heard it on the radio.


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## Rorschach (10 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It is the result of Covid, not government actions.



You're not meant to be replying to my comments, don't break the ceasefire now please.


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## Lons (11 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Look see, I'm not dead inside.


That's a matter of opinion.


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## Rorschach (11 Feb 2021)

Lons said:


> That's a matter of opinion.



No need for personal insults please.


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## Noel (11 Feb 2021)

*Please do not make this a replay of the last thread. Never the twain shall meet and that is obvious to all and any dog you find wandering in the street.
@Garno started the thread and it's been informative and perhaps even helpful for those getting/had/considering a jab or two so let's keep it that way. 
Please, back on topic *


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## Phill05 (11 Feb 2021)

Well to help get this thread back on track!! I just got back from getting the AZ jab and it went really well I would hope many go and get it and lets get back to some kind of normality if we can.


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## Jelly (11 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Maybe the media don't report as simplistically and it will be misconstrued by many of the population as being non effective of cv19.
> Already reports are having to be put out to assure the public the vaccine they have been given are effective against the cv19 strain.
> There always seen to be an angle of sensationalism in reporting these days, as if they want to start conflict in what is a very difficult time for everybody.



I would tend to agree with you, as would many relevant Experts...

Some of my friends who work in science communication and behavioural change economics *do their absolute nut *about the way the media as a whole tends to oversimplify to make everything into nice neat "Facts" or "Black/White Splits"; when "the truth" is a nebulous, squishy, wriggly and inconveniently incomplete thing in the real world...

It does everyone a disservice that rather than take the time to have a serious discussion with the nation about "As best we can know based on the facts at our disposal right now..." increasingly media organisations will pick a line it feels it can support (sometimes based on editorial stance rather than evidence) and run with it, rather than taking the time to explain the detail to readers/viewers.


For me the whole pandemic has brought the issue of with increasingly complex topics being reported by generalist journalists into sharp relief.

I'm now firmly in agreement with my friends who do their nut on the issue, that with how complex the world is getting, difficult topics *really* need to be reported on by subject matter experts who are _also_ trained in journalism _on top of_ understanding their brief.

That also probably explains why of all the papers, the FT is the one I tend to gravitate towards reading if I'm going to... Their opinion pieces are very clearly demarcated (as well intellectually diverse and not extreme) and the editors manage to do a good job of getting expert reporters for each relevant field, who can talk to the issues in such a way to bridge the gap between what I know, and what I need to to understand the story.


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## Amateur (11 Feb 2021)

Excellent post.


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## Jonm (11 Feb 2021)

I know about ten or fifteen people who have had the jab and none have had any real problems. Two felt a bit unwell for a day or two, and one felt tired, the rest had no problems, just a slightly sore arm. As I have already posted, myself and my wife just had a slightly sore arm.


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## RobinBHM (11 Feb 2021)

Jelly said:


> Some of my friends who work in science communication and behavioural change economics *do their absolute nut *about the way the media as a whole tends to oversimplify to make everything into nice neat "Facts" or "Black/White Splits"; when "the truth" is a nebulous, squishy, wriggly and inconveniently incomplete thing in the real world



The media are motivated by getting people's attention. The UK media is also politically tribal.

Complex subjects like the science of pandemics need detail, nuance and technical discussion....none that which is terribly attention grabbing.


For me, one the most misleading aspects is the media will happily put give equal prominence to a scientist on the fringe that has built a hypothesis based on a tiny data set with a bunch of scientists representing the majority view.


scientists / bloggers / attention seekers get far more interest by being controversial than if they agree with the global consensus. Have look on youtube - Covid deniers, lockdown sceptics etc get millions more views than those people who support the majority view.


The fact that science is not black or white, but complex and detailed allows the conspiracists lots of space to build their plausible arguments.


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## RobinBHM (11 Feb 2021)

Jonm said:


> I know about ten or fifteen people who have had the jab and none have had any real problems. Two felt a bit unwell for a day or two, and one felt tired, the rest had no problems, just a slightly sore arm. As I have already posted, myself and my wife just had a slightly sore arm.


Yeah I've got a sore arm....not from the jab, from the wife...apparently I wasn't listening


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## Lons (11 Feb 2021)

I had my Pfizer jab at 5pm yesterday, arm slightly sore to the touch but no other reactions, the microchip must be miniscule as I didn't feel it go in.


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## RobinBHM (11 Feb 2021)

Lons said:


> I had my Pfizer jab at 5pm yesterday, arm slightly sore to the touch but no other reactions, the microchip must be miniscule as I didn't feel it go in.


You will be talking fluent Russian by the morning


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## Droogs (11 Feb 2021)

or even effluent Russian


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## Jelly (11 Feb 2021)

Lons said:


> I had my Pfizer jab at 5pm yesterday, arm slightly sore to the touch but no other reactions, the microchip must be miniscule as I didn't feel it go in.



Who's your chip from, anyone good? 

A nurse friend of mine went for his jab back in December, and joked:

"According to the conspiracy theories after this Bill Gates will be able to control my thoughts, but surely that's a selling point... He's clearly done alright at his own life, so I'm willing to give him a crack at mine!"​


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## Phill05 (12 Feb 2021)

" Who's your chip from, anyone good? "

Real chip from local Super market great with a pea-e


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## Blackswanwood (12 Feb 2021)

Not sure if this is new so apologies if it’s already well known but this is imho a good read









Covid vaccine tracker: How’s my country and the rest of the world doing?


When it comes to vaccine distribution there is one question most people are asking - when will I be offered it?



www.bbc.co.uk


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## Amateur (12 Feb 2021)

Democracy is all but gone.
The press are a disgrace.
I'm glad Merkel won her case and rightly so.
And I'm off topic.

So against the run here I had the Pfizer jab on Sunday and have suffered most of the side effects for three days.
But I did manage to clear the snow from my car windscreen unlike the chap the police stopped.
Maybe he had a worse reaction than me to the jab, and the Gates microchip takes control of car navigation now?


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## Amateur (12 Feb 2021)

Jelly said:


> Who's your chip from, anyone good?



Bet it was Aunt Bessies or McCains.


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## Owd Jockey (12 Feb 2021)

Slightly annoyed yesterday when I turned up at a new Vaccination Centre in Shrewsbury after accepting a task assignment from the Royal Voluntary Service. It really was a case of spotting the Jab recipient, and significantly oversubscribed with Volunteers. This site and one over in Telford both capable of doing 1400/day had done 240 between them. Nothing to do with vaccine supply, just a case of the strict rules within the National Booking system on which cohort can be offered a jab. 
I had been volunteering for the last couple of weeks on the main hospital site some 4 miles away administering the Vacc to mainly NHS and Support workers. On Tuesday it was announced that the site was being 'moth-balled' for 2 weeks, to be used as a training facility for Vaccinators and then to re-open to the over 80's for their second jab. So on Monday/Tuesday an email had gone out to many care agencies and Contractors to turn-up. It was quite amazing, I don't think I'd ever seen so many builders in one place before - 'chippies', 'sparkies', plumbers all lined up. I think diversity was the name of the game with doctors, nurses and therapist in 'scrubs' lining joining contractors and Chaplains. I even spotted two chaps in black suits and ties from the local funeral services. However, all of trades and professions shared one thing in common, that of working on or in close proximity to Covid Wards. Although that site normally did 400/day I suspect that may have been superceded ton Tuesday.


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## Woody2Shoes (12 Feb 2021)

Jelly said:


> I would tend to agree with you, as would many relevant Experts...
> 
> Some of my friends who work in science communication and behavioural change economics *do their absolute nut *about the way the media as a whole tends to oversimplify to make everything into nice neat "Facts" or "Black/White Splits"; when "the truth" is a nebulous, squishy, wriggly and inconveniently incomplete thing in the real world...
> 
> ...


Amen to the above. As is obvious when you look at their subscription prices, good journalism costs money. The FT weekend edition is the only print paper I buy now. Most people expect to get their news 'for free' in our internet-driven world, and as a result they get what they pay for...


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## Blackswanwood (13 Feb 2021)

More than a quarter of the adult population now had their first dose and the daylight is noticeably longer. Things are definitely looking up - maybe my dovetails will be okay straight off the saw today


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## Nigel Burden (13 Feb 2021)

I had my jab on Tuesday, Pfizer Biontec. No side effect other than a slightly sore arm. One of my wifes friends had hers also on Tuesday, Astra Zeneca. She felt rough for a couple of days, nausea and generally not good at all, ok now though.

Nigel.


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## artie (13 Feb 2021)

I'm just wondering.
Have any of you checked what exactly was injected into you?


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## Cabinetman (14 Feb 2021)

This is a can of worms! I’m not going to open the lid on it, But I am very seriously researching the question. As I think everybody should, you question what you put in your mouth – you trust some companies and you avoid the ones you don’t trust so why is this different?


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> I'm just wondering.
> Have any of you checked what exactly was injected into you?



The contents don't worry me, I have had dozens of vaccinations since I was a child, almost certainly containing "worse" ingredients than modern ones. 

I am still doing a risk benefit analysis for myself though. I have got plenty of time before I will even be offered it though. Personally I am still not sure if they will bother offering it to the under 50's, seems like a waste of time and money to me when it could be spent giving boosters to the vulnerable ready for next winter. Glad to see promising words coming from government (finally) about learning to live with C19 and that zero covid is impossible (as I said best part of a year ago)


----------



## Blackswanwood (14 Feb 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> This is a can of worms! I’m not going to open the lid on it, But I am very seriously researching the question. As I think everybody should, you question what you put in your mouth – you trust some companies and you avoid the ones you don’t trust so why is this different?


My competence reaches it’s limit reading the ingredients on a food packaging label. As far as vaccines go I’m personally happy to rely on whatever it is having been signed off by people far better qualified to know if it’s safe or not!


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## doctor Bob (14 Feb 2021)




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## Sandyn (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Have any of you checked what exactly was injected into you?



No, but I never actually check the ingredients of any medication I take. I could ask my wife or daughter, both are Pharmacologists, but I really don't worry about it. I trust the process absolutely. I am also aware of the accelerated process for the Covid vaccination. I always check out possible side effects. There are always long term risks in a situation like this, but when I looked at the short term alternative for me, possible death, or long term illness is more scary. 
Even if some terrible side effects developed in the future, I would never regret taking the vaccine. I have volunteered for follow up research on the effects. 

I think for people who do worry about getting the vaccine, they should just not have it, I don't think it would make a huge difference to the community, as long as they continue to take sensible precautions when meeting others in the future. Everyone has the absolute right to refuse the vaccine for whatever reason.

I did get a leaflet telling me what was in the Pfizer vaccine I got.





According to Wiki, the adverse effects are:

The adverse effect profile of the Pfizer–BioNTech COVID‑19 vaccine is similar to that of other adult vaccines.[21] During clinical trials, the side effects deemed very common[a] are (in order of frequency): pain and swelling at the injection site, tiredness, headache, muscle aches, chills, joint pain, and fever.[4] Fever is more common after the second dose.[4] These effects are predictable and to be expected, and it is particularly important that people be aware of this to prevent vaccine hesitancy.[105]

Severe allergic reaction has been observed in approximately 11 cases per million doses of vaccine administered.[106][107] According to a report by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 71% of those allergic reactions happened within 15 minutes of vaccination and mostly (81%) among people with a documented history of allergies or allergic reactions.[106] The UK's Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) advised on 9 December 2020, that people who have a history of "significant" allergic reaction should not receive the Pfizer–BioNTech COVID‑19 vaccine.[108][109][110] On 12 December, the Canadian regulator followed suit, noting that: "Both individuals in the U.K. had a history of severe allergic reactions and carried adrenaline auto injectors. They both were treated and have recovered."[64]

On 28 January 2021, the European Union published a COVID-19 vaccine safety update which found that "the benefits of Comirnaty in preventing COVID‑19 continue to outweigh any risks, and there are no recommended changes regarding the use the vaccine."[107][111] No new side effects were identified.[107]


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## pils (14 Feb 2021)

Two things: 
1. let's give our children to them: childrens trial list
2. False 'false positive':  (and she looks like an angel to boot


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## rwillett (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> I'm just wondering.
> Have any of you checked what exactly was injected into you?





Cabinetman said:


> This is a can of worms! I’m not going to open the lid on it, But I am very seriously researching the question. As I think everybody should, you question what you put in your mouth – you trust some companies and you avoid the ones you don’t trust so why is this different?



What exactly are you going to research? How are you going to find and validate the information? And then how do you work out what's good or bad? Do you have an inside line to AZ or Moderna?

I'm sure there's enough skills on this website to check things like stats or the tiny little things that are in the vaccine, I'm not sure what they are called, bugs, or nanotransmitters or something, but there will be a YouTube video somewhere that helps me understand it, and allows me to not have to waste my time and do a degree in microbeeologee. There's so much good information out on the intertubes thats always accurate, up to date and spot on. Its dead easy to spot the good ones from the bad ones due to the quallity of the production and the use of capitals in the captions.

I always research things before I buy them as well. We just brought a new dish washer and we checked out the energy rating, the size, various reviews, we even measured our bowl size as it's pain fitting bowls in. I think these dishwasher suppliers use flat bowls so they can get more place settings in. The same methodology would work here. 

I'm really interested in what you can find out, what your conclusions are and think you should share it so we can all benefit from this. We could pool the results of this and perhaps rank the vaccines, a bit like an Amazon review or Trust Pilot. Only three stars as I had a sore arm, or perhaps four stars for the speed of the staff at your local vaccination centre.

I think you're onto something here.

Rob


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## Jelly (14 Feb 2021)

pils said:


> 2. False 'false positive':  (and she looks like an angel to boot




She is however talking about something she isn't actually qualified to comment on, and drawing misleading conclusions to support a particular viewpoint

I would seriously question if doctors who are pulling that kind of [rude word for excrement] are fit to practice, as it most definitely falls below required ethical standards.


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## Cabinetman (14 Feb 2021)

It would appear that YouTube are censoring the debate.

No sorry it was my iPad couldn’t open YouTube


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

The vacine program is rolling along well but I cannot see things getting back to normal anytime soon, we are still in the early days and as yet do not really know how effective these vacines are on the masses. The government is already planing the next lockdown with their determination to send the kids back to school before many teachers get the jab and of course to end the pandemic you need to have enough people vacinated to not only stop the spread but also to prevent it mutating. Lots of kids in close proximity will be a great breeding ground for the next strain and so rushing to unlock the country will be a really bad move.

When I got the jab it felt like one of those horror films where a virus has plagued the earth and I was really not comfortable with people being anywhere nearby, almost like the days of leprosy so it will have a massive impact on social interaction for years to come. Has anyone thought about the woodworking shows, can you imagine how different they will be with suppliers hidding behind perspect screens and visitors trying to keep our social distance, but maybe on a positive note it may be a case of what you touch you have to buy!


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> The vacine program is rolling along well but I cannot see things getting back to normal anytime soon, we are still in the early days and as yet do not really know how effective these vacines are on the masses. The government is already planing the next lockdown with their determination to send the kids back to school before many teachers get the jab and of course to end the pandemic you need to have enough people vacinated to not only stop the spread but also to prevent it mutating. Lots of kids in close proximity will be a great breeding ground for the next strain and so rushing to unlock the country will be a really bad move.
> 
> When I got the jab it felt like one of those horror films where a virus has plagued the earth and I was really not comfortable with people being anywhere nearby, almost like the days of leprosy so it will have a massive impact on social interaction for years to come. Has anyone thought about the woodworking shows, can you imagine how different they will be with suppliers hidding behind perspect screens and visitors trying to keep our social distance, but maybe on a positive note it may be a case of what you touch you have to buy!



Well luckily not all of us are as miserable and pessimistic as you are. Can't wait to get back to normal and everyone I know is the same, no worries here.


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

It is that attitude that has caused multiple lockdowns and over a 100K dead. People only accept danger when it is visible, many bury there head and hope it is not real, but that is the difference in a survivor and someone who kills there granny.


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## Selwyn (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is that attitude that has caused multiple lockdowns and over a 100K dead. People only accept danger when it is visible, many bury there head and hope it is not real, but that is the difference in a survivor and someone who kills there granny.




This is ridiculous. You have swallowed the whole line hook line and sinker!


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

If everyone had accepted the situation and rigidly stuck to lockdown, and the government shut the doors into the country then do you not think that we would be in a very different place now, possibly enjoying the freedoms of New Zealand and the like.


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> If everyone had accepted the situation and rigidly stuck to lockdown, and the government shut the doors into the country then do you not think that we would be in a very different place now, possibly enjoying the freedoms of New Zealand and the like.



You missed the news this morning then, Auckland in lockdown.


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

Oh dear, this virus is determined to survive. Are they not playing Rugby out there, so perhaps someone has brought it in for them.


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## Jelly (14 Feb 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> It would appear that YouTube are censoring the debate.


???


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## Selwyn (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> If everyone had accepted the situation and rigidly stuck to lockdown, and the government shut the doors into the country then do you not think that we would be in a very different place now, possibly enjoying the freedoms of New Zealand and the like.



No. 

If we had done a quarantine very early on (not a lockdown a quarantine for everyone) then possibly maybe would have fared better. But that ship had sailed by January 20 at the latest.


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## Selwyn (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> Oh dear, this virus is determined to survive. Are they not playing Rugby out there, so perhaps someone has brought it in for them.



Of course it will survive. Its like saying we don't want grass to grow anymore and trying to kill all the grass


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## Cabinetman (14 Feb 2021)

Jelly said:


> ???


 No they haven’t LOL it was my iPad needed rebooting so please ignore


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> Oh dear, this virus is determined to survive. Are they not playing Rugby out there, so perhaps someone has brought it in for them.



Of course it will survive, we are never getting rid of it, vaccinations or not it will be around forever.


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

Which then means we will always be looking over our shoulder waiting for the next strain and is what Mr Gates said years ago about being prepared.


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## pils (14 Feb 2021)

Jelly said:


> She is however talking about something she isn't actually qualified to comment on, and drawing misleading conclusions to support a particular viewpoint
> 
> I would seriously question if doctors who are pulling that kind of [rude word for excrement] are fit to practice, as it most definitely falls below required ethical standards.


and you have every right to your opinion...and the children?


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## Terry - Somerset (14 Feb 2021)

Cases, hospitalisations and deaths are falling rapidly due combined impacts of increasing natural immunity, lockdown and vaccine rollout. 

Within 4-6 weeks (end March latest) they will be at relatively trivial levels. Spring will be here. Assuming no change to lockdown arrangements, and no surprises in virus mutation, deaths will have fallen to less than 100.

At this point there is close to zero probability that full lockdown will be maintained. Compliance will simply be unenforceable as possibly millions of those vaccinated, who think themselves immune, think it a giant hoax, will simply ignore the rules.

My guess would be a rapid reduction in lockdown, starting with schools and personal restrictions (meeting outside, groups of 6 etc). This will be rapidly followed by non-essential retail and hospitality (covid scure, distanced, masks??)

By the end of April pretty much all restrictions will be dismantled - low cases in the community, test and trace working properly, routine testing in schools etc, second vaccine rollout underway, possible vaccine passport (or restricted entry to some places.


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## Woody2Shoes (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> I'm just wondering.
> Have any of you checked what exactly was injected into you?


I had some Tesco sausages for lunch yesterday, I really do not want to imagine what was in them but they were quite tasty....


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## Garno (14 Feb 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I had some Tesco sausages for lunch yesterday, I really do not want to imagine what was in them but they were quite tasty....



Richmonds taste so much better https://richmondsausages.co.uk/


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

Terry

Like the car on top of a hill, it remains there until the handbrake is released. The only reason the figures are currently low is not because of vacination but due to the restrictions, remove to soon and away we go again.


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## Woody2Shoes (14 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> Richmonds taste so much better Home - Richmond Sausages


I wonder if they have different cold chain requirements?...


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

Richmonds are very nice but these ones 8 Meat-Free Sausages - Richmond Sausages they do not have the unwanted ingredients pressure washed from the carcass in them.


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## Jelly (14 Feb 2021)

pils said:


> and you have every right to your opinion...and the children?


It's not an opinion.

I *know* her to be wrong based on my first hand experience of using biochemical assay techniques like PCR and statistical methods to design valid testing protocols.


As for children your point is literally incoherent, I have no idea what on earth are you attempting to say with that comment.


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> Richmonds taste so much better Home - Richmond Sausages



Please tell me you are joking? Richmond sausages are the most vile sausages ever, also full of bone and grissle, I chipped a tooth on one!


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## RobinBHM (14 Feb 2021)

We need this to be the last lockdown, so I agree with the govts cautious approach.

I also would say the govt should be talking to the hospitality industry and reducing lockdown in a way that helps the worst hit sector recover.

I've heard pub landlords saying they would prefer to stay shut longer, then be able to open fully, rather than have restrictions that means they are half open, with no hope of breaking even.


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## RobinBHM (14 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Please tell me you are joking? Richmond sausages are the most vile sausages ever, also full of bone and grissle, I chipped a tooth on one!



You would be amazed that I fully agree with you!


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## Sandyn (14 Feb 2021)

Every cloud has a silver lining. Scientists are looking for a generic vaccine which will be effective against all strains of covid. They will find it because there will be massive profits to gain and lots of investment for research. Developing new drugs is massively expensive. There is nothing quite like a war to stimulate development.


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> You would be amazed that I fully agree with you!



We agree on something then! hahaha.

Have you had Westaways sausages? Unbelievably they were worse than Richmonds, tasted of nothing but salty rancid lard and had the texture of baby food. They were so bad I posted on their facebook page reviews, the company outright called my liar and said they were award winning, never had complaint blah blah to which I then had dozens of people agreeing with me and saying they had complained and their reviews were removed! Within hours my review had also disappeared.


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## Droogs (14 Feb 2021)

Garno said:


> Richmonds taste so much better Home - Richmond Sausages


Oh i dunno @Garno Tesco have some really nice new finest out. I have become quite addicted to the "Tesco Finest Smooth Chipolatas"  V V yummy


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

If you saw how processed meat products are made then you would run a mile, some of them probably make Mc junkfood look edible. I once had the misfortune to visit a processing plant to look at some control equipment, never again did I venture near. Cow in one end, bleached white bones into one skip and a few parts into another with the rest into fridges. They were the days when even the spinal cord went into processed products but to use high pressure water to recover all the bits left on a carcass for sausage & burger production was vile, nothing went to waste and the skin, tendons, ligaments, and bones used to produce gelatine for kids sweets and womens makeup amongst other things!


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> If you saw how processed meat products are made then you would run a mile, some of them probably make Mc junkfood look edible. I once had the misfortune to visit a processing plant to look at some control equipment, never again did I venture near. Cow in one end, bleached white bones into one skip and a few parts into another with the rest into fridges. They were the days when even the spinal cord went into processed products but to use high pressure water to recover all the bits left on a carcass for sausage & burger production was vile, nothing went to waste and the skin, tendons, ligaments, and bones used to produce gelatine for kids sweets and womens makeup amongst other things!



Stop it, there are 2 hours till dinner and you are making me hungry!


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## Chris152 (14 Feb 2021)

Selwyn said:


> This is ridiculous. You have swallowed the whole line hook line and sinker!


This message was sent to you by the Covid Recovery Group (aka the Put the Plebs Back to Work Group).


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

Porky Whites, from Surrey.
Since we moved to Gloucestershire, we can't get them at Waitrose or Tesco any more, but fortunately they deliver.

Had my first AZ jab on Thursday, I don't give a tinker's cuss what's in it, as long as it stops me getting ill or dying from Covid.


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## Woody2Shoes (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> If you saw how processed meat products are made then you would run a mile, some of them probably make Mc junkfood look edible. I once had the misfortune to visit a processing plant to look at some control equipment, never again did I venture near. Cow in one end, bleached white bones into one skip and a few parts into another with the rest into fridges. They were the days when even the spinal cord went into processed products but to use high pressure water to recover all the bits left on a carcass for sausage & burger production was vile, nothing went to waste and the skin, tendons, ligaments, and bones used to produce gelatine for kids sweets and womens makeup amongst other things!


I used to think that the only animal parts I wouldn't be keen on eating were the eyes and the genitalia - then sausage reality dawned on me....


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## artie (14 Feb 2021)

John Brown said:


> Had my first AZ jab on Thursday, I don't give a tinker's cuss what's in it, as long as it stops me getting ill or dying from Covid.



Even the gov or AZ don't claim that, 
So where do you get that idea.


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## Woody2Shoes (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Even the gov or AZ don't claim that,
> So where do you get that idea.


Artie - do tell us what qualifies you more than some crusty old cowman with bad teeth and straw in his hair propping up the bar in some rustic (imaginary for now) pub?


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## Garno (14 Feb 2021)

15 million jabs so far and everyone in the top 4 categories have been contacted.

AWSOME


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> If you saw how processed meat products are made then you would run a mile, some of them probably make Mc junkfood look edible. I once had the misfortune to visit a processing plant to look at some control equipment, never again did I venture near. Cow in one end, bleached white bones into one skip and a few parts into another with the rest into fridges. They were the days when even the spinal cord went into processed products but to use high pressure water to recover all the bits left on a carcass for sausage & burger production was vile, nothing went to waste and the skin, tendons, ligaments, and bones used to produce gelatine for kids sweets and womens makeup amongst other things!


Spinal chord? Best bit! We used to fight over it when ar worra lad. Yum yum!


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## artie (14 Feb 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> Artie - do tell us what qualifies you more than some crusty old cowman with bad teeth and straw in his hair propping up the bar in some rustic (imaginary for now) pub?



Again , I mis worded my post.

It should have said. " to my knowledge", the gov or AZ have not claimed that the jab will stop you from becoming ill or dying from covid.
In fact they are on record as saying the opposite. But I won't be answering you again as you have in one post descended to talking nonsense about cowmen teeth and imaginary pubs.


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## Spectric (14 Feb 2021)

I thought it prevented hospitalisation and subsequent death but not from having a mild dose of it and potentially spreading it. I think they were talking about the SA variant which they have insufficient data to categorically state the vacine can prevent hospitalisation and possible death in all situations.


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Again , I mis worded my post.
> 
> It should have said. " to my knowledge", the gov or AZ have not claimed that the jab will stop you from becoming ill or dying from covid.
> In fact they are on record as saying the opposite. But I won't be answering you again as you have in one post descended to talking nonsense about cowmen teeth and imaginary pubs.


What point are you trying to make here, Artie?


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## artie (14 Feb 2021)

John Brown said:


> What point are you trying to make here, Artie?


My point was that talking about crusty old cowmen adds nothing to the topic and is merely a distraction. 

But these tactics are quite common .

Anyway, I'm done.


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## Blackswanwood (14 Feb 2021)

Now sausage lovers this may be a bit contentious (but hopefully it will distract from the usual COVID argument which seems to be breaking out) but what about Heck Vegan Sausages?

One of my daughters tricked me into having one and it was actually really good.


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Again , I mis worded my post.
> 
> It should have said. " to my knowledge", the gov or AZ have not claimed that the jab will stop you from becoming ill or dying from covid.
> In fact they are on record as saying the opposite. But I won't be answering you again as you have in one post descended to talking nonsense about cowmen teeth and imaginary pubs.


Maybe I misworded my post.
I should have said "I don't give a tinker's cuss what's in it, if reduces my chances of becoming seriously ill or dying from Covid 19".


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> My point was that talking about crusty old cowmen adds nothing to the topic and is merely a distraction.
> 
> But these tactics are quite common .
> 
> Anyway, I'm done.


Yes. I meant your earlier post, your response to mine. I have not mentioned your teeth.


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## artie (14 Feb 2021)

John Brown said:


> Yes. I meant your earlier post, your response to mine. I have not mentioned your teeth.


again the distraction.
and a vague reference to a previous post.


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## Selwyn (14 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> This message was sent to you by the Covid Recovery Group (aka the Put the Plebs Back to Work Group).



I'm just a pragmatist who knows this isn't the black death


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Even the gov or AZ don't claim that,
> So where do you get that idea.


This post.


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## artie (14 Feb 2021)

John Brown said:


> This post.


Ok, what I said was that neither AZ or HM government claims that the jab will stop you getting ill or dying from Covid. 

So where did you get the idea?

What don't you understand about that.


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## D_W (14 Feb 2021)

Selwyn said:


> I'm just a pragmatist who knows this isn't the black death



It's just "put some to death", but 'tis true that the death rate is lower than many other things. It's just harder to stop. Most of us will get used to it and our bodies will learn how to kill it and its variants. Whether that starts by infection or vaccine is one thing, but I fail to believe that we won't have long term t-cell reactivity to it (the SARS cov1 individuals have reactivity two decades later). The antibody scare stories are just that. severe reinfections are rare enough not to consider as being something worth even thinking about.


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## pils (14 Feb 2021)

Jelly said:


> It's not an opinion.
> 
> I *know* her to be wrong based on my first hand experience of using biochemical assay techniques like PCR and statistical methods to design valid testing protocols.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you could share that 'knowledge' because the chap who created the PCR test said it wasn't a test and I'm confused.
what's 'incoherent' about children being experimented on? clearly you missed point one of two points in my original post.


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Ok, what I said was that neither AZ or HM government claims that the jab will stop you getting ill or dying from Covid.
> 
> So where did you get the idea?
> 
> What don't you understand about that.


All of it.


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## Jelly (14 Feb 2021)

Spectric said:


> If you saw how processed meat products are made then you would run a mile, some of them probably make Mc junkfood look edible. I once had the misfortune to visit a processing plant to look at some control equipment, never again did I venture near. Cow in one end, bleached white bones into one skip and a few parts into another with the rest into fridges. They were the days when even the spinal cord went into processed products but to use high pressure water to recover all the bits left on a carcass for sausage & burger production was vile,



I've done work in environments that might have the average person running for the hills, including a lot of work on sewage treatment and clinical waste disposal; but I draw the line at abbatoirs and especially rendering plants!

I recall a process equipment supplier of mine proudly talking about installing a screw-auger system for a pet-food plant and saying "tell me how great a project it is when the first service call comes in..." Spoke to him about six months later, and their service engineer had been out and felt decidedly green around the gills, whilst his apprentice had vomited all over himself during the job, and they had decided to write a cleaning requirement into future service contracts.




Spectric said:


> nothing went to waste and the skin, tendons, ligaments, and bones used to produce gelatine for kids sweets and womens makeup amongst other things!



In a lot of ways that's a real success story of waste prevention and "green" thinking which traces its roots all the way back to Victorian times... The "Oleochemicals Industry" (as some of the renderers prefer to be known, rather than knackermen) is rightly proud of it too.

Whilst I will happily admit that it's fascinating and ingenious in some respects, it's just *so grim* in others... I definitely don't have the stomach for it, despite my respect for the people who do.


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## Chris152 (14 Feb 2021)

Selwyn said:


> I'm just a pragmatist who knows this isn't the black death


Nah, you're just another of the punters doing the bidding of laissez-faire, free-market ideologues (such as the CRG), I've seen your posts. Neither you nor I know jack about Covid really. But free-market ideology? You should be able to see that from across the county with one eye shut on a misty day. Unless, of course, you've been taken in by it, then you'll struggle. Hook, line and sinker.


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## DBT85 (14 Feb 2021)

So odd to still see people bankhandedly saying it's not that bad when we've had 1000 people dying a day despite being in these lockdowns. 

How bad were we supposed to let it get exactly?


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

DBT85 said:


> So odd to still see people bankhandedly saying it's not that bad when we've had 1000 people dying a day despite being in these lockdowns.
> 
> How bad were we supposed to let it get exactly?



1000 dying a day is only a problem if it's 1000 more than would normally die per day. Remember the figures are "with" not "from".
Back in April 2020 the excess death figures were very high, at the moment they are not.


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## Selwyn (14 Feb 2021)

DBT85 said:


> So odd to still see people bankhandedly saying it's not that bad when we've had 1000 people dying a day despite being in these lockdowns.
> 
> How bad were we supposed to let it get exactly?



Fundamentally because there isn't a distinction between those 1000 deaths per day.

Some (probably a good many) of those deaths will have had no end of potential comorbidities that you could also attribute to their deaths if you were to test for it. Covid isn't necessarily the one thing that finishes off a 91 year old . I've said before the average length of stay in a care home is well under 12 months.

This lack of distinction is really not helping us manage it well. 

Read John Lee. Eminent and sensible.


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## Selwyn (14 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Nah, you're just another of the punters doing the bidding of laissez-faire, free-market ideologues (such as the CRG), I've seen your posts. Neither you nor I know jack about Covid really. But free-market ideology? You should be able to see that from across the county with one eye shut on a misty day. Unless, of course, you've been taken in by it, then you'll struggle. Hook, line and sinker.



Well we are one of the few countries rich enough to be able to do this lockdown stuff. Most countries cannot afford to do it and so they don't. Lots of other countries cannot afford to test themselves into a standstill. We are able to do this exactly because we are free market, because that has made us wealthier. 

But it doesn't mean its not a daft strategy and it will have to be paid for by the very free market you don't seem to like. Nothing else will pay for it but people who work. Retired folk won't


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## Jelly (14 Feb 2021)

pils said:


> Perhaps you could share that 'knowledge' because the chap who created the PCR test said it wasn't a test and I'm confused.



As a very broad overview (and this is probably about as simple an explanation as I can manage):

PCR as a technique is not a "Test", but a sample preparation technique used as the preliminary step prior to conducting RNA or DNA bioassays to determine the presence of a given genetic sequence.
The Bioassay techniques are highly specific to individual genetic sequences, with most techniques giving "Yes/No" answer.
But they need a minimum concentration of genetic material to work at all, which is why a the sample preparation technique is needed.

The parameters of individual PCR "runs" can be tuned to alter the level of amplification it gives (and thus the amount of genetic material present in the original sample before the bioassay will give a positive indication).
By doing many PCR runs with different parameters on the same sets of samples from people with confirmed COVID cases and samples which definitely don't contain any disease material, a team of scientists can build up a statistical distribution of how the different parameters effect the test response, and use that to calculate what parameters translate to the bioassay giving a positive result at a given level of "confidence" (statistical certainty).
95% would normally be the lowest level of certainty that was acceptable for scientific research, whilst 99.5 or higher would be seen as desirable.
They will be tuning the parameters to ensure the best balance of two different factors "Sensitivity", which is how well it identifies people who do have the disease; and "Specificity", which is how well it identifies people don't have the disease.
It is entirely possible for a protocol to have different confidence levels for "Sensitivity" and "Specificity", or to have achieved an acceptable level of both.

The parameters which give a specific level of "confidence" (statistical certainty), are then published as a test protocol.
A bioassay run following a PCR according to the parameters in that protocol can then be said to be a qualitative "Test" which is accurate to the level specified.
It's against my better judgement that I've spent the time writing that, as the fact that you're already so far as spreading disinformation on the net makes me think you won't engage with it positively... But for some reason I feel it's worthwhile giving you the benefit of the doubt.





pils said:


> what's 'incoherent' about children being experimented on? clearly you missed point one of two points in my original post.



That's sensationalising something which is totally normal within the approval process of any drug or medical treatment for children.

We already have data from animal and Phase 1 human trials on adult volunteers to show that it's not actively dangerous, and children taking part would not be placed at risk; "First do no harm" and all that.

But because children's immune systems are different to those of adults, we can't immediately assume that the vaccine will be efficacious in children based on the data from Phase 2 and Phase 3 trials in adults which have already been run; so we have to follow a large cohort of children after receiving the vaccine in order to then determine:

If it's actually worthwhile offering it to all children; 
If there's a minimum age where it's worthwhile immunising them, or
If they would need something entirely different developed (so as not to have children act as a disease reservoir because we can't control the virus in them by vaccination).


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## Chris152 (14 Feb 2021)

Selwyn said:


> Well we are one of the few countries rich enough to be able to do this lockdown stuff. Most countries cannot afford to do it and so they don't. Lots of other countries cannot afford to test themselves into a standstill. We are able to do this exactly because we are free market, because that has made us wealthier.
> 
> But it doesn't mean its not a daft strategy and it will have to be paid for by the very free market you don't seem to like. Nothing else will pay for it but people who work. Retired folk won't


Yes, I should have been clearer. The type of free-market ideology _whose bidding you're doing_ is extreme, people little more than a resource to be used, expendable. Lift lock down asap, get the markets (profits to be hoarded by the financial elite) flowing again. Free market in the traditional Smithsonian sense is probably a good thing compared to other systems functioning at the moment.


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## Chris152 (14 Feb 2021)

Note for you, Rorschach - your laughter emojis are presumably an attempt to mock other people's understanding. But I also see that's how you understand the nature of argument. And it's the reason I responded to Selwyn's attempt to ridicule someone else's thoughts earlier. Pretty weak, really.


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Note for you, Rorschach - your laughter emojis are presumably an attempt to mock other people's understanding. But I also see that's how you understand the nature of argument. And it's the reason I responded to Selwyn's attempt to ridicule someone else's thoughts earlier. Pretty weak, really.



I just find it hilarious that you think the only reason that some of us want lockdown lifted is so we can make money for rich people again. Only someone who hasn't suffered or watched suffering due to lockdown would say this. I am glad you have enjoyed the last 11 months but you are clearly blind to the real world out there.


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## Chris152 (14 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I just find it hilarious that you think the only reason that some of us want lockdown lifted is so we can make money for rich people again. Only someone who hasn't suffered or watched suffering due to lockdown would say this. I am glad you have enjoyed the last 11 months but you are clearly blind to the real world out there.


You've misunderstood completely, Rorschach. You don't have the framework to understand why you want what you want. I'll leave it there, coz I certainly can't be doing with trying to explain any more to you.

ps You have no idea what I've had to deal with over the last 11 months. Please keep your uninformed nonsense to yourself.


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## Inspector (14 Feb 2021)

Re the 1,000 deaths per day argument.

While the overall death rate may not be appreciably changed one has to take into account with the lockdowns in effect you have far fewer automotive related deaths due to accidents because people aren't driving as much and the drunks are juicing up at home rather than doing so in a drinking establishment and then driving off to kill people. You also have flue related deaths very low because of the reduced contact and the mask wearing. There are probably a few other reductions to the death rate by people being in lockdown that don't come to mind. If there were no lockdowns all the regular killers plus Covid would be taking out many many more of us with the resulting death rate being in the tens of thousands per day.

Pete


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## artie (14 Feb 2021)

Inspector said:


> Re the 1,000 deaths per day argument.
> 
> While the overall death rate may not be appreciably changed one has to take into account with the lockdowns in effect you have far fewer automotive related deaths due to accidents because people aren't driving as much and the drunks are juicing up at home rather than doing so in a drinking establishment and then driving off to kill people. You also have flue related deaths very low because of the reduced contact and the mask wearing. There are probably a few other reductions to the death rate by people being in lockdown that don't come to mind. If there were no lockdowns all the regular killers plus Covid would be taking out many many more of us with the resulting death rate being in the tens of thousands per day.
> 
> Pete


I know it's all speculation but I think you may be overestimating the number of people killed by drunk drivers. 
Statistics I read said most accidents happen in the home, so since lots of people cooped up at home should mean more accidents.

Again, I know it's all speculation so don't get mad.


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## DBT85 (14 Feb 2021)

In the UK only about 600 people are killed by drunk driving a year. 85,000 are convicted of drink driving, of which apparently 85% are male. Shocker.



Selwyn said:


> Fundamentally because there isn't a distinction between those 1000 deaths per day.
> 
> Some (probably a good many) of those deaths will have had no end of potential comorbidities that you could also attribute to their deaths if you were to test for it. Covid isn't necessarily the one thing that finishes off a 91 year old . I've said before the average length of stay in a care home is well under 12 months.
> 
> ...


Smells like a whole lot of some, probably, could and if. 

Now, I'm right with you that the statement "died with covid" can be skewed. If I test positive today and fall into a cement mixer in 27 days time I get counted into the statistics. Can't help but feel I'm an edge case there.

With that in mind, however, you only have to look at the agonising pleading from hospital staff for people stop clapping and start adhering to the rules to see that the issue is serious, these poor and often undervalued staff are only there because the virus has swamped hospitals. Many of the 117,000 UK deaths have had underlying conditions that did indeed speed up their visit from the reaper, however were it not for the virus they wouldn't have been put in that situation where they ended up in hospital in the first place, and certainly not all at the same time meaning other illness or treatment has to be put on hold. This also hasn't only been contained to care homes. Tens of thousands have died that have only been in a care home to visit their own families. 

There have been teams of people employed by every govt the world over who have said "lock it down, close the borders, do what you can to limit the spread, this is going to be bad". Educated people in the fields in question and teams of them, not one mad scientist acting like a dictator. I don't know your background, I don't know your fields of expertise. Maybe you really are more qualified to judge what should have been done across all of those countries than all of the advisors they employed who pretty much all agreed on the same course of action.

I'm not going to keep on or keep replying. The thread is supposed to be about our community getting vaccines of which it seems a large portion of them have done.


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## Tanglefoot20 (14 Feb 2021)

I had mine on Thursday afternoon...at my local doctor...
Aged 66 .... had a text sent me to drop for one.


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## Noel (14 Feb 2021)

I see we've fallen down the smelly rabbit hole again.


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## Inspector (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> Again, I know it's all speculation so don't get mad.



I won't get mad. Already a little crazy. 

I'll get the jab when it gets offered to me. Probably in the summer sometime. 

Pete


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

artie said:


> I know it's all speculation but I think you may be overestimating the number of people killed by drunk drivers.
> Statistics I read said most accidents happen in the home, so since lots of people cooped up at home should mean more accidents.
> 
> Again, I know it's all speculation so don't get mad.


Is that intended to be a joke? I hope so. Otherwise it's scarily similar to the old joke about the (insert ethnic minority here) person who read that most traffic accidents happen within 5 minutes of home, so he/she moved house.


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## John Brown (14 Feb 2021)

John Brown said:


> Is that intended to be a joke? I hope so. Otherwise it's scarily similar to the old joke about the (insert ethnic minority here) person who read that most traffic accidents happen within 5 minutes of home, so he/she moved house.


I mean, really... If everybody stayed at home all the time, 100% of accidents would happen in the home.


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## Blackswanwood (14 Feb 2021)

I think it will be a real shame if this thread continues going down the pan in the same way previous covid ones have. The only new news is progress on getting vaccinations rolled out which is what I think @Garno did us all the favour of starting it for.

IMHO everything else has been argued already and we’ve all got views on what has happened, the mortality statistics and lockdown etc that we are not going to change so there’s no real point raking over it all again.


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## Noel (14 Feb 2021)

Noel said:


> I see we've fallen down the smelly rabbit hole again.



Best climb out and get a bit of fresh air, stretch the legs a bit.


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