# Upgrade of my chisels



## tibi (23 Jul 2022)

Gentlemen, 

I currently have 8 different sizes of big box store bench chisels (of two similar brands) and they share similar issues. They have bellied backs that would take at least 1-2 hours of lapping to remove per chisel, their handles are not aligned to the blade, so it is difficult to pare square and they always twist in the mortice. Edges do not last very long too. I did not have time yet to lap the backs flat, so no big time investment was made into those chisels. 

I have bought additional two chisels from Narex for a need of that size in a project (the standard lower-end line of Narex that was available physically in another hardware store), and I have found that I like them substantially better than those big box store chisels. The backs are hollowed, instead of bellied, and the handles are much more comfortable. 

This got me thinking, what if I ditched all those chisels and bought just 3 middle-tier bench chisels and 2 dedicated mortice chisels. I will have fewer chisels to maintain and I would be able to keep them in better condition. 


My idea is to buy 3 Narex Richter chisels (6 mm, 10 mm and 25 mm - although they are sold as imperial, so 1/4 ,3/8 and 1 inch). And then two Narex or MHG mortice chisels 8mm and 12 mm. I can clean the bottom of the blind mortice with 6 and 10 mm Richter chisels. Will I be missing something if I buy those chisels? I know that I can buy additional sizes later. 



Can someone tell me if it is worth buying Narex Richter compared to Narex Wood line Plus? Thank you. 




vs


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## Ttrees (23 Jul 2022)

Some cranked ones are more comfortable for fine paring, whilst non cranked ones better for heavy paring or striking.
Bellied chisels are less likely to dive into the grain, especially so with chopping,
so these might be reasons to suggest they all might have a place, if you've got flat ones too.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jul 2022)

Have you a lathe? If so abrasive paper stuck to a disc of MDF will flatten them quickly.


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## tibi (23 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Have you a lathe? If so abrasive paper stuck to a disc of MDF will flatten them quickly.


No, unfortunately no, so I have to rely on the elbow grease.


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## Blackswanwood (23 Jul 2022)

I would suggest that you drop Matthew at Workshop Heaven an e-mail and ask him about the relative merits of the Narex range. I seem to recall that he has helped them with their product development.


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## Jacob (23 Jul 2022)

You don't need to flatten "bellied backs" it's just another completely pointless crazy-sharpening ritual.
"bellied" and "backs" seem to be ritualistic crazy-sharpening turns of phrase.
"Face" = flat side, "back" = bevel side.

I wasn't too impressed by the one Narex chisel I've owned - a 1" parer. Heavier and cruder than the trad Sheffield equivalent.

All modern so-called "mortice" chisels are pale imitations of the trad oval bolster and not as good for morticing if you expect to do it very often.
You mention new chisels with "hollow" faces. This seems to be normal with all brands of chisel and makes them very easy to sharpen at first, but slowly gets lost with use and sharpening.
Either way the need for a perfectly flat face is mythical.


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## Adam W. (24 Jul 2022)

I doubt he's got access to traditional Sheffield made stuff living on the mainland.


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I doubt he's got access to traditional Sheffield made stuff living on the mainland.


That is very difficult for me. I buy from E-bay only if I have to, because shipping is always at least 20 GBP and I always have to pay VAT on the top of the regular price (from Ebay) even when buying from a private seller.


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## Jarno (24 Jul 2022)

Also on mainland here, regularly buy on eBay UK, yes, it definitely has become less interesting since Brexit, but still for things like planes it makes economical sense. For chisels, not so much, IMHO. I did buy a pair of paring chisels, because they are somewhat hard to get when new, or very expensive.

Recently bought a set of three of the Narex dovetail chisels, for dovetails, obviously, but as someone mentioned above, I do think they are heavy. My main set of chisels are the Stanley re-issue 750 socket chisels, and I like them very much. I think I bought a set of 8 of them at a discount, with the leather roll (which i never use).

I also have a few chisels from MHG, set of 10mm skew chisels, and a big mortise chisel, those are perfectly adequate as well (well, I do have an issue properly sharpening the skews freehand, can't seem to get the hang of it).

But Dictum or Dieter Schmid have great tools, I suppose, just start with a few tools when on a budget, you really only NEED 3 chisels or so 

Edit: should have read your question and not the last reply 
I am not partial to having grooves and stuff on handles, so I would go for the richter ones, but they are both fine, and better than what you now have, so if those Richter chisels are a lot more expensive, go for the other ones.
The MHG mortise chisels are great, but they are huge, are you chopping deep mortises in oak? (bought mine for a mortise in hornbeam which was also a little bit of a chore)


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## thetyreman (24 Jul 2022)

the narex richter are the best chisels I've used so far, so I can highly recommend them, I bought the 5 piece set but get the 7 piece set if you can, the edge on them lasts a lot longer than ordinary steel because of the cryo treatment and it still feels a lot like O1 steel, easy to sharpen, handles are great too, not too fat and the bevels are very fine on the edges which makes them great for dovetailing and fine work.

Also my first set was the oridinary narex cabinetmakers chisels, I like everything about them except the handles and ferrules, the handles are far too bulky and the ferrules end up cracking, I'd like to re-handle the set at some point, steel on them is ok but not comparable to the richter.


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## hlvd (24 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I currently have 8 different sizes of big box store bench chisels (of two similar brands) and they share similar issues. They have bellied backs that would take at least 1-2 hours of lapping to remove per chisel, their handles are not aligned to the blade, so it is difficult to pare square and they always twist in the mortice. Edges do not last very long too. I did not have time yet to lap the backs flat, so no big time investment was made into those chisels.
> 
> ...


Surely you’ll only maintain the chisels you’ve used, they don’t need to be periodically maintained.


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## Jacob (24 Jul 2022)

hlvd said:


> Surely you’ll only maintain the chisels you’ve used, they don’t need to be periodically maintained.


Reminds me of a plane I sharpened for a friend which encountered again when we visited them in France several years later. I helped ease a door with it and was surprised at how sharp it was. He explained it hadn't been used since I sharpened it the first time!
The "period" for periodic maintenance can be many years long.
This is well worth bearing in mind when looking at a newly acquired old tool - give it a go first before you do anything - the last person to use it might have left it in good condition. Don't just start frantically "restoring" it.


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## D_W (24 Jul 2022)

narex regular chisels are austempered. That keeps he cost down but it limits the potential of the steel, especially in regard to hardness (which equates to crispness in use). 

The richters are probably done with regular process if they're cryo treated - quench, temper separately, and cryogenic treatment between the two just to bump up hardness. 

They are almost certainly just some kind of chrome vanadium drill rod somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1% carbon steel (not going to be hard to sharpen - chrome vanadium steels are generally less alloyed steel than O1 and A2, not more). 

There was one test online that I can think of that compared the two - the regular narex chisels clicked 58 hardness and the richters clicked a little over 63. If you're doing bench woodworking and the cost difference isn't a big deal, I would buy the richters without question. Chrome vanadium steel (which is "plain steel", not the junky attribute that people usually assume with it) at higher hardness is going to sharpen easier and have better edge strength than something that's austempered. 

if you were prying locks with both chisels, the austempered chisel would bend a lot more before it broke. I don't know where that's useful in woodworking at the cost of the edge. 

(the "unicorn" trick can make up for the lack of hardness, but the regular narex chisels will never be quite as sweet and sharp feeling).


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> narex regular chisels are austempered. That keeps he cost down but it limits the potential of the steel, especially in regard to hardness (which equates to crispness in use).
> 
> The richters are probably done with regular process if they're cryo treated - quench, temper separately, and cryogenic treatment between the two just to bump up hardness.
> 
> ...


Thank you David, we have discussed this earlier, but I was also interested in how they compare to the standard Premium line of Narex chisels, that is why I asked, if Richters are worth paying more. I would like to buy only 1/4, 3/8 and 1 chisels now (1/2 is out of stock) and I will buy others later if needed. At the same price point, there are also Pfeil, MHG, and Two Cherries chisels, I do not know if those brands are any better than Richters.

I do not want to buy a set, as I do not need both 3/4 and 1 chisel and maybe I would not need 5/8 or 1/2 chisel.


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## Jacob (24 Jul 2022)

I'd think more about the _design_ of the tool rather than the steel. The Narex parer was thicker, heavier and slightly clumsier _in use_ than the trad Sheff alternative. I've got photos of them both somewhere I'll dig them out.
And all modern _mortice_ chisels are pale imitations of the OBM, actually _in use_, except for the Ray Iles offering I expect, though I haven't had hands on with one.


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## Adam W. (24 Jul 2022)

I'd get the pfeil ones, they have a lifetime guarantee.


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> I'd think more about the _design_ of the tool rather than the steel. The Narex parer was thicker, heavier and slightly clumsier _in use_ than the trad Sheff alternative. I've got photos of them both somewhere I'll dig them out.
> And all modern _mortice_ chisels are pale imitations of the OBM, actually _in use_, except for the Ray Iles offering I expect, though I haven't had hands on with one.


That is the issue, that all other brands, except Narex, I would buy from Germany. So I cannot personally test them and feel them in my hands. There are two types of mortice chisels now, one type has square sides and one type has tapered. Which one is better? I prefer to have metric mortice chisels, as I work from drawings and it would give me odd numbers to include imperial mortices. For bench chisels, I do not mind imperial sizes, because if I do not make mortices with bench chisels, the exact size is irrelevant.


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I'd get the pfeil ones, they have a lifetime guarantee.


They have octagonal elm handles. How does elm compare to hornbeam or ash, that is commonly used for handles? They have no metal ring, so I do not know if they can withstand heavier blows (information for David , 60 HRC,CrV steel)


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## Jacob (24 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> ....... There are two types of mortice chisels now, one type has square sides and one type has tapered. Which one is better? .....


There always have been at least two types of mortice chisel:
The sash mortice chisel, most typically about 12mm squarish section and not tapered sides, for smaller mortices such as for glazing bars
The OBM mortice chisel also most commonly 12mm (1/2") wide but with deeply tapered blade and trapezoid section, designed fo 1/2" mortices the same but longer, e.g. for rails.
Then various sizes and shapes from biggest mortice chisel (5/8") down to the smallest (1/8").
Handle material not too important - anything which takes a battering and won't split - beech, ash, hornbeam, are typical.


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## Adam W. (24 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> They have octagonal elm handles. How does elm compare to hornbeam or ash, that is commonly used for handles? They have no metal ring, so I do not know if they can withstand heavier blows (information for David , 60 HRC,CrV steel)
> View attachment 140238


They look like bench chisels. I wouldn't get too hung up about the quality of pfeil steel, it's Swiss and it's good.


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## D_W (24 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> Thank you David, we have discussed this earlier, but I was also interested in how they compare to the standard Premium line of Narex chisels, that is why I asked, if Richters are worth paying more. I would like to buy only 1/4, 3/8 and 1 chisels now (1/2 is out of stock) and I will buy others later if needed. At the same price point, there are also Pfeil, MHG, and Two Cherries chisels, I do not know if those brands are any better than Richters.
> 
> I do not want to buy a set, as I do not need both 3/4 and 1 chisel and maybe I would not need 5/8 or 1/2 chisel.



The key to telling if the premiums are any better than the standard line is the hardness spec. If they say they're 59 hardness, then they are almost certainly going to be austempered process instead of regular process. Austempering would make a good crow bar. You'd rather have standard process in a chisel. 

I had the pfeil chisels, they were also good. I had only one experience with MHG mortise chisels eons ago and they weren't that great - they spec 61 hardness, there's no way the ones I had were that hard, but I haven't ever looked to see if anyone tested them with a lab quality hardness tester like a versitron. 

Two cherries also behaved lower than their hardness spec (I had the hirsch labeled version) and later the WBW chisel test showed them to be well below 61. there's no guarantee that stuff doesn't change over time, but if you find chisels that roll on the edge and leave you feeling a burr when they feel dull, they're probably not 61 hardness. 

if anyone says that there's little difference between a 58 hardness chisel and one at 62, they have no clue what they're talking about.


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## D_W (24 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> They have octagonal elm handles. How does elm compare to hornbeam or ash, that is commonly used for handles? They have no metal ring, so I do not know if they can withstand heavier blows (information for David , 60 HRC,CrV steel)
> View attachment 140238



On a whim, I bought the set of those and later resold them (they were on sale). their spec is probably accurate. they're not overwhelming, but they're not underwhelming either.


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> The key to telling if the premiums are any better than the standard line is the hardness spec. If they say they're 59 hardness, then they are almost certainly going to be austempered process instead of regular process. Austempering would make a good crow bar. You'd rather have standard process in a chisel.
> 
> I had the pfeil chisels, they were also good. I had only one experience with MHG mortise chisels eons ago and they weren't that great - they spec 61 hardness, there's no way the ones I had were that hard, but I haven't ever looked to see if anyone tested them with a lab quality hardness tester like a versitron.
> 
> ...


So I deduct that your advice is to buy the Richters, opposed to Pfeil?


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## D_W (24 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> So I deduct that your advice is to buy the Richters, opposed to Pfeil?



They're both good enough for fine work. I'm way in the trenches really needling through steel and can make a chisel probably as good as anything (that wasn't true a year ago, but it is now), and probably better than anything retailed. 

What really makes the sweetest working chisels is high edge strength (high hardness), plain steel and just enough toughness not to chip. 

What I'm getting at is I haven't used the richters, but if they are actually 63 hardness on a regular basis, people are going to like them a little better than the pfeils.

The whole unicorn thing makes it so that when it really comes down to it, you could work rosewood with $10 chisels without the work suffering. 

So, actual experience with the pfeils - they're good. They're not matching the better mid to late 1800s chisels good, but they're good. I can compare that only to the richter specs, but the specs appear to be a little better, and I'm neutral on chisel bevels because I will regrind anything without much concern. If you like the shape of one much better than the others, go by the shape. If you're neutral, I'd take richters even odds, and if I didn't have a choice and someone told me I could only use the pfiels, I'd learn to use them just the way they liked and never suffer a thing.


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> They're both good enough for fine work. I'm way in the trenches really needling through steel and can make a chisel probably as good as anything (that wasn't true a year ago, but it is now), and probably better than anything retailed.
> 
> What really makes the sweetest working chisels is high edge strength (high hardness), plain steel and just enough toughness not to chip.
> 
> ...


Thank you David,

So I will not go wrong with either of these. I would consider Richters as I like the handles a little bit more. Although I have seen a negative review, where a side of the chisel broke off. I have never seen anything like this. I know that the sides are narrow, but this should not happen, I will try to make up my mind and decide which one to get.


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## D_W (24 Jul 2022)

The reason that I didn't just unequivocally say "YESSS" to the richters is because I don't know what they're doing to get to 63.something on a versitron tester. 

There are two ways to get that 
- push a upper mid carbon steel to its limits, or
- use a highly hardenable steel that will actually land there

There are two that I can think of - bearing steel (52100), but the process to get 52100 to 63+ is maybe something that won't happen in a factory, and 26c3, which is a razor steel made by voestalpine uddeholm. I would bet there are others, like 115crV ("silver steel"), but it's not available in the US for me to give it a whirl. 

I can heat treat 26c3 in a garage in a forge (with care and experience) and reach 64 hardness and double the toughness of factory O1, or furnace schedule ideal results, at 62 for the O1. Toughness just means that it would take twice the energy to actually break 26c3 at 64 hardness vs. what it would to break O1 at 62. 

I've never seen a defect like that and it may be an artifact of drop forging (which I don't do). 

I don't think you'll see that happen with the pfeil chisels, though, and the shape of the pfeil chisels may be slightly more refined. The handles need a little help when you get them. 

That said, if there is one chisel with one defect, it's hard to get excited. If you see 10 with the same type of thing, then you start to have a greater chance of seeing it yourself. 


I'd love to know what all of the european 60 hardness or so chisels are made of. I suspect it's something like 80crV steel (a 0.8% carbon steel with chromium and vanadium). That's a steel that will land right around 60 in a normal hardening procedure without much chance of remaining brittle. there are a bunch of aspects why 0.8% carbon is easier to deal with than 1%, but I'll spare everyone here if nobody wants to know them. We could all do every bit of woodwork we'll ever see with 80crV. The only thing I could think of where it would come up short anywhere in a house is for razors.


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## D_W (24 Jul 2022)

By the way, I doubt you'll ever challenge elm handles with any reasonable mallet. The urethane mallets made now have it all over wooden mallets, anyway, and they won't so much as even burnish it. The thing you'll find with the handles, though, is it feels like they did the coarsest grain raising you ever saw, and they're a little crude. But most boutique chisel handles are either crude or weird (short with some step/notch to put your thumb, which is one of the dumbest ideas I've seen with chisels - arthritis inducing if anything).


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> By the way, I doubt you'll ever challenge elm handles with any reasonable mallet. The urethane mallets made now have it all over wooden mallets, anyway, and they won't so much as even burnish it. The thing you'll find with the handles, though, is it feels like they did the coarsest grain raising you ever saw, and they're a little crude. But most boutique chisel handles are either crude or weird (short with some step/notch to put your thumb, which is one of the dumbest ideas I've seen with chisels - arthritis inducing if anything).


I am afraid of the quality control of the Richter chisels, as I have read some more issues, like over polishing the chisels and rounding corners with buffing wheel, as well as out of square bevels (which can be easily corrected, but is expected to be done in the factory) and if they are not too thin to be used with a mallet - I would like to buy dedicated morticing chisels later, but I just ask in case I would use one for morticing as well. I would more trust Swiss chisels in quality control . But I am a bit skeptical about the handles. They indeed look coarse to me. How comfortable and balanced were the Pfeils you had? I am using Thor 712 mallet. 


I do not want to destroy the Pfeil handles with the Thor, if I have decided for them.


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## D_W (24 Jul 2022)

The thor won't pose any problem with them. 

the shape of the handles was fine, they were rough and it was a little too tubby. You can take a coarse file or spokeshave or whatever you want and just make the whole handles similar in style but narrower by following the facets if you find the same thing. 

I like iles Mk2 of all of the chisels I've used, but the thin ones are needlessly thin and long whereas vintage chisels tended to be either a little shorter or a bit taller in the narrow widths to make up for the lack of width. 

so, I can't think of anything, for example, that would be in a class with english chisels made much earlier by marples, ward or IH sorby, etc. Those all got made much more cheaply in later years, so just buying the brand isn't safe, either. 

I don't remember any significant buffing on the pfeils - the ones I got did have the lands short all the way down the length of the chisels, which was weird, but no big deal. 

They were plenty fat enough in cross section that it doesn't matter, though. If you've seen more than one issue with richters, I'd lean toward the pfeils. Whatever pfeil is using is probably the same steel they've used in everything else for decades, and if it was being pushed to get to hardness, the carving tools would have problems well known as carvers are a lot more particular about staying completely defect free at the edge.


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## tibi (24 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> The thor won't pose any problem with them.
> 
> the shape of the handles was fine, they were rough and it was a little too tubby. You can take a coarse file or spokeshave or whatever you want and just make the whole handles similar in style but narrower by following the facets if you find the same thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks David, 

I will lean toward the Pfeils, too. In case I need to polish the handles, I will.


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## Jacob (25 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> Thanks David,
> 
> I will lean toward the Pfeils, too. In case I need to polish the handles, I will.


Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.


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## tibi (25 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.


I know Jacob, but for me, buying chisels from ebay is cost prohibitive, because I can only buy a set, as I do not want to pay for each individual chisel the shipping costs + VAT as they are often from different vendors. There are sets that can be bought on Ebay, but still the listing price + VAT + shipping is often times much more than the price of a brand new quality set. And you always can get chisels with issues. But generally, you are right, old makers did not ponder as much as we do about their tools. They just bought what was available to them, or in the rare case they had more than one option available, they have bought what their budget allowed them. 

These chisels that are currently listed on the main second hand site in Slovakia, so there is not a big selection as in the UK.


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## Jameshow (25 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.


What it's not my Stanley 5002 that are the problem......?! I've always blamed my tools...!


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## Jacob (25 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> I know Jacob, but for me, buying chisels from ebay is cost prohibitive, because I can only buy a set, as I do not want to pay for each individual chisel the shipping costs + VAT as they are often from different vendors. There are sets that can be bought on Ebay, but still the listing price + VAT + shipping is often times much more than the price of a brand new quality set. And you always can get chisels with issues. But generally, you are right, old makers did not ponder as much as we do about their tools. They just bought what was available to them, or in the rare case they had more than one option available, they have bought what their budget allowed them.
> 
> These chisels that are currently listed on the main second hand site in Slovakia, so there is not a big selection as in the UK.
> View attachment 140276


They look OK to me, 3 of them just need new handles!
Riven pieces of ash or almost any hardwood (as per second down) are very easy to do and a neat little exercise in real world woodwork.
Personally I'd much rather be using carefully reclaimed old chisels and just buy the odd replacement when necessary. Not necessarily the same make - there's a tendency for modern woodworkers to think of themselves as working in perfect operating theatres like brain surgeons, with neat arrays of sterilised latest models of matching tools!


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## tibi (25 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> They look OK to me, 3 of them just need new handles!
> Riven pieces of ash or almost any hardwood (as per second down) are very easy to do and a neat little exercise in real world woodwork.
> Personally I'd much rather be using carefully reclaimed old chisels and just buy the odd replacement when necessary. Not necessarily the same make - there's a tendency for modern woodworkers to think of themselves as working in perfect operating theatres like brain surgeons, with neat arrays of sterilised latest models of matching tools!


Yes, this is supported by modern youtube culture. If you watch enough home tours of youtubers, where there is curated furniture, with spare decorative items, pastel tone walls, no mess at all.

For example

And then out of the blue, you want to have items (e.g. chisels) match in your workshop and have less clutter, too. It is addictive.


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## tibi (25 Jul 2022)

And still, the common two-garage wood shop looks like this


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## hlvd (25 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.


Hallelujah!


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## tibi (25 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> And still, the common two-garage wood shop looks like this



This is when you are fed up with always lamenting "Only if I had that one extra tool", and you will actually do something about it .... I think there are not many tools in the world, that this guy does not have.


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## Jameshow (25 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> And still, the common two-garage wood shop looks like this



That's my garage....!


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## Jacob (25 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> This is when you are fed up with always lamenting "Only if I had that one extra tool", and you will actually do something about it .... I think there are not many tools in the world, that this guy does not have.











Diminishing returns - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




The law of diminishing returns (also known as the law of diminishing marginal productivity) states that the more tools you have the less additionally useful they are.
How it works is that we work with just a small selection, keep the rest in drawers etc and some may never get used at all.


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## tibi (25 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Diminishing returns - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Economics was my major at University, so I am aware of this law. I would not want this workshop, because 99 percent of stuff I do not need (e.g. 3 bandsaws and 20 ladders). I would feel anxiety just about thinking to maintain it.


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## whereistheceilidh (25 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Diminishing returns - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


....so true Jacob....I tend to work with a small comforting selection.....but there is in the drawer a chisel or tool that I rarely use.... but when I use it nothing else really fits the bill......


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## tibi (25 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> i wouldn't get too wrapped up in jacob's ideals. He has shown little that relates to bench work on here at all and in the one post where he showed himself marking and trying something in half blinds, it was abundantly clear that he doesn't do much of anything like that.
> 
> I'll give you a more realistic target. George Wilson. George is an absolute tool pig, but not tools he won't use. I guess he's cursed with being a world class maker of about half a dozen different things.
> 
> ...


Woodworking is like politics or religion, everyone has his own truth. But some things are objectively better than others. I am here on the forums to find out for myself. I ask different people and try their ideas. Both David and Jacob helped me in various situations. I am always keen on learning about new craftsmen that I can learn from.


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## D_W (25 Jul 2022)

I got reminded again this weekend how uncommon hand tool work is when talking to the president of a local woodworking club at the club's workshop. I said something like "I don't know if any of this will be that useful, but I think every article I've seen even in FWW, which is pretty far detached from anything like working by hand, that even the guy spraying WB finishes and demonstrating a woodrat still have a set of blue handled marples in the background. I'm guessing that at least, hopefully, most people are cutting dovetails with chisels", and he said "well, cleaning out dovetails with chisels". 

He also recently retired from a full career of professional furniture making - something I didn't know anyone actually did around here gainfully. Talking with him was interesting - it sounds like the market demand (at least recently) was for substrate furniture with vivid veneers. 

I don't go out and talk to other people that much - I'm sure most of them would think that working entirely buy hand or even close to it is stupid. I think it's pleasant, but it has to be done well to be pleasant and not seem like a strain. And then the fine work with the tools is easy - it's the same control and neural development. If someone can work in rhythm and hit a thickness mark (without ripping up wood) and plane a square straight edge without resorting to using measuring tools when they're not needed, then stuff like basic sawing, chiseling and smooth planing is uneventful and if any sanding is needed at all, it is nearly nothing (a light scrape and one relatively fine sanding grit to follow).


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## whereistheceilidh (25 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> what was absolute? I've watched various personalities on forums for about 15 years as I've worked mostly in isolation, but I will test what people say and see if it works and compare in short time intervals (not long time in between) to see what's either more efficient or what actually gets results easier.
> 
> Jacob hasn't done much of what people like to talk about in this forum and finally leaked a year or so ago that he's only worked/planed a relatively small amount of wood by hand.
> 
> ...


May be $200 is not a waste of money....may be he does not have it....I know I do not for a set of chisels.
....and I know I have had to buy less than the best in tools or equipment in the hope it will do a job, bring in enough money to buy better....maybe....latter ......unless I have to spend it on something else.


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## tibi (25 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> I got reminded again this weekend how uncommon hand tool work is when talking to the president of a local woodworking club at the club's workshop. I said something like "I don't know if any of this will be that useful, but I think every article I've seen even in FWW, which is pretty far detached from anything like working by hand, that even the guy spraying WB finishes and demonstrating a woodrat still have a set of blue handled marples in the background. I'm guessing that at least, hopefully, most people are cutting dovetails with chisels", and he said "well, cleaning out dovetails with chisels".
> 
> He also recently retired from a full career of professional furniture making - something I didn't know anyone actually did around here gainfully. Talking with him was interesting - it sounds like the market demand (at least recently) was for substrate furniture with vivid veneers.
> 
> I don't go out and talk to other people that much - I'm sure most of them would think that working entirely buy hand or even close to it is stupid. I think it's pleasant, but it has to be done well to be pleasant and not seem like a strain. And then the fine work with the tools is easy - it's the same control and neural development. If someone can work in rhythm and hit a thickness mark (without ripping up wood) and plane a square straight edge without resorting to using measuring tools when they're not needed, then stuff like basic sawing, chiseling and smooth planing is uneventful and if any sanding is needed at all, it is nearly nothing (a light scrape and one relatively fine sanding grit to follow).


I think that when someone does furniture just for himself / his family, then it is completely feasible to work entirely by hand (if one has enough stamina and no medical conditions that prevent hard work). I was recently tempted to start saving for Record Power BS350 bandsaw. It would be very useful for me, but I would need to get proper dust extraction to my workshop and say goodbye to my great grandfather's workbench, as I would no more have place for two benches. 

But I told myself that I need to make 2-3 furniture pieces per year, if I only want to furnish my own home and give ocassional gift pieces away. I do not need to saw and plane against the clock,from dawn to dusk. I can saw the 32 mm oak boards 1 meter per 4-5 minutes with a hand saw. If I were to rip saw 15 meters per project, that is 60 - 75 minute of workout, and I would not do it in a single session. 

Let's add some reserve and say that I need to saw 90 minutes per project and if I want to make 3 bigger items per year, that would be 270 minutes. Which is 4.5 hours of hand sawing per year. Do I need a bandsaw for that? 

Being in a production environment, that is a different story, but for a hobby, I think that hand work, especially in hand prep is often avoided as unnecessary drudgery. No one tells that machines are not faster, but for personal projects, they can be done with hand tools.

If people do not believe it can be done with hand tools, please watch the video below


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## D_W (25 Jul 2022)

whereistheceilidh said:


> May be $200 is not a waste of money....may be he does not have it....I know I do not for a set of chisels.
> ....and I know I have had to buy less than the best in tools or equipment in the hope it will do a job, bring in enough money to buy better....maybe....latter ......unless I have to spend it on something else.



if you're in the UK, you have the advantage of being able to find some of the best tools ever made for bench woodwork on the ground. I don't know as much about what may be available on the ground where tibi is. 

tools like pfeils are to some extent, money in suspense. Once someone ventures into higher cost exotic nonsense, then that's not the case (e.g., japanese chisels that fall out of being retailed are a huge loss - people can't compare the price to anything). 

Good wood here for cabinetmaking can be $2 a board foot if you're lucky to $10 a board foot if you're picky - a lot of folks like working walnut here, but fewer these days. Within a year or two of hobby woodworking, you can burn through 1000 board feet without much trouble, and even with careful buying, it's a minimum of $3-$4k. 

it's a tough hobby to do on a budget unless you can keep things to small work. if you have more time than money, though, you can certainly find good tools for not much - people do it locally where I live, too, but they trade a lot of time looking through flea markets, etc, to get almost what they might want....eventually. 

There is literally nothing but economics at this point keeping someone from making a good set of chisels equal to the pfeils in china for about $5 each. There's just no way we're going to get someone involved in doing that to the point where they sell them here for $10-$15 per - there's no economic incentive and that's too bad. The spec range for more industrially common steels like 80crv2 would hit 60/61 without issue and the steel is far finer, despite being really cheap, than stuff like A2 steel. 

We don't know anyones' circumstances unless they clarify them - but it's still the internet and if you say you have the time to find something good enough for low cost, the next person will shout you down and say its' false economy and the seesaw will go back and forth. 

George Wilson, who I mentioned above, got marples chisels that were probably made in the late 50s before they switched to lower carbon steels. I don't know what they cost - probably the equivalent of $100 now - who knows. At some point, marples switched to making bench chisels in a process that looks like it was people feeding jigged machines, and I have a set of 10 of them. Only two of my set of 10 are hardened. Something went wrong temporarily and because nobody actually had hands on the chisels at any part of the process, they couldn't feel that they were bogus. A job grinder would've immediately noticed that they ground way too fast. 

that middle ground is kind of gone. The pfeil chisels are maybe close to it despite being kind of costly. The narex chisels are not - the regular - they're austempered to hit a price point and they have no chance of coming close to matching something even like a last-of-the-good-ones marples.


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## D_W (25 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> I think that when someone does furniture just for himself / his family, then it is completely feasible to work entirely by hand (if one has enough stamina and no medical conditions that prevent hard work). I was recently tempted to start saving for Record Power BS350 bandsaw. It would be very useful for me, but I would need to get proper dust extraction to my workshop and say goodbye to my great grandfather's workbench, as I would no more have place for two benches.
> 
> But I told myself that I need to make 2-3 furniture pieces per year, if I only want to furnish my own home and give ocassional gift pieces away. I do not need to saw and plane against the clock,from dawn to dusk. I can saw the 32 mm oak boards 1 meter per 4-5 minutes with a hand saw. If I were to rip saw 15 meters per project, that is 60 - 75 minute of workout, and I would not do it in a single session.
> 
> ...




I would equate hand work once someone is well skilled to being about as strenuous as playing golf and walking. Nobody golfs leaning over or sprinting, but a lot of the hand work demonstrations show people red faced or braced up rigid or leaning over. None of the old pictures suggest anyone is torturing themselves like that. Eventually, the hand sawing becomes about 2 feet per minute in 4/4 hardwood - it just happens, and a little more than half of that in 8/4, and you'll migrate away from stuff that doesn't work well by hand. 



I linked this last week - this is the bottom of a TV stand in a semi-finished area, so it's just something I could make entirely in an hour with hand tools - there's a top board and sides. The point of this is someone told me to buy #1 common cherry instead of FAS because by the time I picked apart the boards and got rid of the junk, I'd have far more wood with the FAS. What they didn't know is that a lot of the wood would be between straight and what's shown here. This is a deceptive picture because the knot is in the middle and the rest is subtle. Every single part of the board is grain runout into the face. I don't know if it could be jack planed green, but you can't get a jack plane anywhere close to it and there isn't a predominant grain directly to sever straws from ripping, so it's a pain in poo-er to work with by hand. With a spiral planer, a table saw and a drum sander, it'd probably be pretty fun to work with such stuff as long as you didn't try to cut half blinds in the ends (they'd break). 

Dimensioning becomes part of the process doing work from start to finish, you cut what you need out of boards or off of them a little at a time rather than organizing a big part and milling everything and sooner or later you find out that you went through a couple of hundred feet without knowing it because you never amassed a pile of it and counted it at once. The productivity rate goes up such that if you spend a couple of hundred hours a year at the hobby, it will only be a year or two before you have nothing to build and nowhere to put what you want to build next. 

Marking and design are the only things that really have a longer term steep learning curve - I would bet that in general, those are challenges forever. Coming up with something that just flat out looks good, and then maybe bits and bobs on each new thing. the joinery like dovetails and mortise and tenon will be so easy to execute based on skills learned dimensioning accurately (which is a must - it's just the easiest way, to dimension at a steady pace accurately rather than believing that it's coarse work that you have to bomb through) that they'll be little challenge. 

I think the average person would do much better work and have much more time and less limitation to think about design - eventually if you're building nice things, the rest of the work is so much time compared to dimensioning that you'll appreciate how pleasant it is to go back and forth. The dimensioning is a treat - a mind clearing treat. if it feels like you did more than take a brisk walk or walk a round of golf (if even that) after a few hours, then something else needs to be addressed.


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## MikeK (25 Jul 2022)

I cleaned up this thread in the interest of keeping it open and avoiding additional moderation actions.


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## MCTWoodwork (26 Jul 2022)

OPTIMA BENCH CHISEL 4 PIECE SET (INCLUDES FREE SHARPENING SQUARE)


Now through January 9, 2023, you’ll receive a FREE Blue Spruce Sharpening Square with your purchase of a Bench Chisel Set. Every book on sharpening chisels starts with pages of instructions on how to flatten the back. The authors devote so much attention to the subject because chisels don’t...




bluesprucetoolworks.com





These are flat and shiny... I like them like a magpie would  

They are v expensive of course but I just wondered how they get them that flat?? Do they use a lapping machine which metal workers may use for making very fine components in engineering (aerospace etc) If were to try to flatten to a mirror finish which is measured in light bands I think I would struggle on my japanese stones/norton oil stone at home/work! Just wondered if you guys and gals might know!? Just very curious that's all


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## dannyr (26 Jul 2022)

MCTWoodwork said:


> OPTIMA BENCH CHISEL 4 PIECE SET (INCLUDES FREE SHARPENING SQUARE)
> 
> 
> Now through January 9, 2023, you’ll receive a FREE Blue Spruce Sharpening Square with your purchase of a Bench Chisel Set. Every book on sharpening chisels starts with pages of instructions on how to flatten the back. The authors devote so much attention to the subject because chisels don’t...
> ...



Yup - so what does a magpie do with it's shiny collection - the local bird stores it in our gutter - I have to climb a ladder and unblock it - it will eat dove's-eggs but never saw it cut any dove-tails.

Not an expert, but have seen such shiny and flat tool steels and cemented tungsten carbide gauge blocks being flattened to this optical standard here in Sheffield - takes a bit of time but the machines are available, old and new.

The Spruce blurb also refers to the tempering and cryo 'resulting in an incredibly fine grain' - anyone enlighten me - I can see how it might change the martensite/austenite/ferrite balance somewhat, but would it refine the grain? That's mostly defined (by melting, quenching, forging, powder met techniques) at an earlier stage.


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## Adam W. (26 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> I cleaned up this thread in the interest of keeping it open and avoiding additional moderation actions.


It was getting very tedious with the slating of forum members and their work from the usual suspect.


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## Jarno (26 Jul 2022)

MCTWoodwork said:


> OPTIMA BENCH CHISEL 4 PIECE SET (INCLUDES FREE SHARPENING SQUARE)
> 
> 
> Now through January 9, 2023, you’ll receive a FREE Blue Spruce Sharpening Square with your purchase of a Bench Chisel Set. Every book on sharpening chisels starts with pages of instructions on how to flatten the back. The authors devote so much attention to the subject because chisels don’t...
> ...


They are shiny, but I am not sure they are actually have a level of flatness that needs lapping, you can get extremely accurate with "mere" surface grinding.

To get them shiny, they could have used regular polishing processes, which makes the surfaces shiny, but not necessarily flat. Lapping is done on very specialised machinery, and while that is done with very fine abrasives, it does not necessarily make surfaces shiny. It does allow one to create extremely accurate "basic shapes" so flat surfaces, cylinders and spheres.
And as mentioned above, people can make very flat and curved things for a long time already, to very high standards (even without machines, saw a youtube video of a dutch guy making integrated mirror optics for telescopes by hand, in his attic:  ).

Keen on finding out the chisels thread starter ends up with, and what his findings are.
The Richters do look nice, and I think they have a handle which is pleasant to use (ball end, not too much ridges and edges).


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## tibi (26 Jul 2022)

Jarno said:


> They are shiny, but I am not sure they are actually have a level of flatness that needs lapping, you can get extremely accurate with "mere" surface grinding.
> 
> To get them shiny, they could have used regular polishing processes, which makes the surfaces shiny, but not necessarily flat. Lapping is done on very specialised machinery, and while that is done with very fine abrasives, it does not necessarily make surfaces shiny. It does allow one to create extremely accurate "basic shapes" so flat surfaces, cylinders and spheres.
> And as mentioned above, people can make very flat and curved things for a long time already, to very high standards (even without machines, saw a youtube video of a dutch guy making integrated mirror optics for telescopes by hand, in his attic:  ).
> ...



I have already ordered Pfeil chisels, as I have read some negative reviews about the quality control on Richters on Amazon. The only concern is the handle shape on Pfeils, but I can smooth it out with sandpaper, spokeshave, etc. Chisels might arrive by Friday from Germany, so I will see them then. 

This is the quote from Blue Spruce website:


> Blue Spruce Toolworks new Optima™ Chisels feature a lapped and polished back with flatness measured in light bands (the same system used to measure silicon wafers). This incredible surface results in edge sharpness unlike any other chisel in the world. You will never have to flatten the backs of your Blue Spruce Optima chisels, ever. And, when you unbox your new Optima Chisels, they’re razor sharp and 100% ready to go to work. No sharpening, no honing, no nothing.


It would be very unfair of them to claim using alien technology for lapping (and pricing the chisels accordingly), yet just polish the chisels on the buffing wheel and do nothing else with the flatness.


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

MCTWoodwork said:


> OPTIMA BENCH CHISEL 4 PIECE SET (INCLUDES FREE SHARPENING SQUARE)
> 
> 
> Now through January 9, 2023, you’ll receive a FREE Blue Spruce Sharpening Square with your purchase of a Bench Chisel Set. Every book on sharpening chisels starts with pages of instructions on how to flatten the back. The authors devote so much attention to the subject because chisels don’t...
> ...


No idea how they do it, or why for that matter, but there was a thread some years back where somebody had bought a new set of BlueSpruce and had immediately set about "flattening" them!  
He'd obviously got into a mess, having started with a coarse grit and spoiled them all, one by one.
He was following the common crazy-sharpening advice that all new chisels needed "prepping", "initialising", "commissioning", etc.
It's nonsense - any chisel of even average quality never needs "flattening" and is never easier to sharpen than when it is brand new. Just a quick hone at 30º and you are off! A tiny bit of "flattening" follows very quickly as the burr is taken off with the chisel face down on the stone and that's all you need.


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> I have already ordered Pfeil chisels, as I have read some negative reviews about the quality control on Richters on Amazon. The only concern is the handle shape on Pfeils, but I can smooth it out with sandpaper, spokeshave, etc. Chisels might arrive by Friday from Germany, so I will see them then.
> 
> This is the quote from Blue Spruce website:
> 
> It would be very unfair of them to claim using alien technology for lapping (and pricing the chisels accordingly), yet just polish the chisels on the buffing wheel and do nothing else with the flatness.


Blue Spruce claim of perpetual flatness looks dubious: 
Each time one is sharpened it will be turned face down to take off the burr. This will slowly and inevitably make the face slightly more convex, with every sharpening, unless the whole face is flattened every time.


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

There are some techniques where some would want a flat chisel.
That chisel aint flat, but the best photo I've got to try and demonstrate.
Try and get another tool to _check_ that, not happening.






not even this slim protractor rule can fit that hole above, nor a ruler.





Those are some run of the mill Stanley's
I'd reckon it's probably a good thing to have something possibly a bit soft,
as it will teach you more, and how to get around that rather than mashing the tool into the work and it diving too deeply.
I have some Tesco ones I like also, same as these with an in-line handle.
A bit concave I think, not that it matters for use chopping combined with drilling.

Concerning the chisel deepening excessively, David made a video demonstrating a bellied chisel can be steered out of the cut,
That kinda thinking will keep the edge of a tool, and is easier to be accurate whilst doing fast work.
Not that I care about the latter for my hobby work, as I didn't go looking for some,
but I wouldn't be put off buying some more cheapies with that profile if I thought it might give me significantly quicker results.

Not saying that every chisel under the sun might be decent, but likely the case that many cheap chisels might be sound.


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## tibi (26 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Blue Spruce claim of perpetual flatness looks dubious:
> Each time one is sharpened it will be turned face down to take off the burr. This will slowly and inevitably make the face slightly more convex, with every sharpening, unless the whole face is flattened every time.


I think that those chisels are specifically designed for users, who just want to buy a chisel a never maintain it again. It should be sharp and flat forever. In reality, it does not work like that.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jul 2022)

They are designed to be gloated over, and precious little else.


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> .....
> 
> Concerning the chisel deepening excessively, David made a video demonstrating a bellied chisel can be steered out of the cut,


The "bellied chisel" problem is a recent invention, along with the terminology itself.
Can be ignored very easily!



Ttrees said:


> Not saying that every chisel under the sun might be decent, but likely the case that many cheap chisels might be sound.
> 
> View attachment 140341


Exactly. "Nice" ones are nicer to use of course and some of the crudely ground bevel edges are completely pointless.
Wooden handles are good for repetitive work because of the lower weight but if you are going to thrash them then plastic or the chunky OBM type are going to last a lot longer.


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

I don't think anyone is going to create a profile by taking off the burr,
Yet to notice anyway, wouldn't be put off sorting if needed.
Can't imagine it would be very often, but then again I don't dub the edges of mine too badly.


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> The "bellied chisel" problem is a recent invention, along with the terminology itself.
> Can be ignored very easily!


Terminology should not to be ignored, as that way leads to ignorance.
Valuable things should be noted and championed instead IMO.
How are you going to explain without having some amount of language?


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> I don't think anyone is going to create a profile by taking off the burr,
> ....


Over time the taking off of the burr will reshape the blade and is the single reason for so many old chisels being slightly convex on the face, though they started out hollow (most likely).


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

I won't argue as I don't have much experience with old chisels.
Just yet to note that happening with mine, not that mine have gotten much use, lol.
it could certainly be the case though.

Cheers
Tom


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## Jameshow (26 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Over time the taking off of the burr will reshape the blade and is the single reason for so many old chisels being slightly convex on the face, though they started out hollow (most likely).


I have some original 5002 like that and they aren't any use for fine corner work as the edges are too rounded. I'd need to take a good chunk of blade off to get to where the edges are sharp.


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## tibi (26 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> The "bellied chisel" problem is a recent invention, along with the terminology itself.
> Can be ignored very easily!


I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

Having a flat chisel will dive beyond the line also if not tenting, call it what you want.
Often registration means little if the force of the waste takes preference.

This will give ye a right laugh, but is foolproof, provided stock is parallel
Foolish time wise.
I love these graphite sticks, great for transferring.
that being aluminium not great compared to cast iron,
but with some lateral force can make very noticeable spots to carve out,
regardless of chisel profile, although a hollow chisel would be very hungry and kinda inaccurate at this stage.
This makes more sense for toolmaking, rather than anything else, but there are some cases like through mortises and the likes where this maybe useful.

Just highlighting the benefits of the belly, as it would speed me up a bit. 
Maybe someday I will try some.


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.
> View attachment 140342


You just tilt the chisel so that the sharp edge goes down the desired face. Not a problem at all.
If the chisel face was hollow then it could be difficult. If anything being convex will help.
Forget the "reference" concept. You are cutting to a line - an actual mark or a line of sight. You still have to do that even with a perfectly flat chisel. You could do this with a double rounded bevel carving chisel if you had to!
PS, if on the other hand you had a seriously bent hollow chisel face ( a very rare occurrence!) you could still cut straight by turning it to the bevel side.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jul 2022)

I've had hundreds of chisels at one time or another, I used to buy all the good ones I saw going for silly money. I've seen one in all that number that was bellied to the point of being unusable. I prefer mine flat and I can flatten them easily - on a disc on the lathe - but I wouldn't bother otherwise. If I were paying Lie Nielsen, Veritas etc. prices I would expect them to be flat, though.


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've had hundreds of chisels at one time or another, I used to buy all the good ones I saw going for silly money. I've seen one in all that number that was bellied to the point of being unusable. I prefer mine flat and I can flatten them easily - on a disc on the lathe - but I wouldn't bother otherwise. If I were paying Lie Nielsen, Veritas etc. prices I would expect them to be flat, though.


Well yes fair enough, it's just that "flatness" isn't much of an issue or a game changer to get worried about, within reason.


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Having a flat chisel will dive beyond the line also if not tenting, call it what you want.
> Often registration means little if the force of the waste takes preference.
> 
> This will give ye a right laugh, but is foolproof, provided stock is parallel
> ...


What is "tenting"?
Not sure what your photo shows. Are you knocking the piece of ali through the mortice?


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

Presuming you wish me to explain rather than state for others,
as I know you've read Charlesworth's work.

May not be necessary with a bellied chisel,
but is likely the only way one will keep an edge on a "lesser" steel 
which is lapped flat.
Basically being aware of undercutting, and understanding one will get more life out of a chisel by aiming out of the cut, or never vertically down whilst chopping,
making a pitched profile in the centre.

A two fold reason to do so, edge life to begin with, and when close to a line 
for accuracy if not wanting to undercut for whatever reason.
(i.e mortise for a panel gauge, or other instance where one does not want an undercut/proud edges, say knocking a tight fitting tenon out the back side of a mortise, one does not want a proud edge to catch on things.


That kinda thing for me, but the technique is not restricted to only that
One can "tent" using a single slope regarding the short ends of tenon shoulders, paring down gradually to meet the already worked long shoulders on smaller work.

Loads of reasons which just goes without saying.
You could say something like the waste pushing the bevel side will likely have more influence than you can control, unless you've got a bellied chisel,
or have space to use just a small portion of the chisels width in order to overcome this.

Tom


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Presuming you wish me to explain rather than state for others,
> as I know you've read Charlesworth's work.


Not a lot. Just flipped through one I sold. Seemed to be a random collection of his magazine articles. Saw more of Dave C on this forum than anywhere else.


Ttrees said:


> May not be necessary with a bellied chisel,
> but is likely the only way one will keep an edge on a "lesser" steel
> which is lapped flat.
> Basically being aware of undercutting, and understanding one will get more life out of a chisel by aiming out of the cut, or never vertically down whilst chopping,
> ...


Hmm, sounds like some serious over-thinking going on here!
"Tenting" is just normal chisel work then - where you'd work from both sides to avoid breaking out on just one side.
I cut "vertically" when I'm doing the last cut down the face of a mortice, with an OBM. No problemo!


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

Maybe this will clear things up a bit 
Concerning longevity of a cheapie chisel aiming out of the cut








But for accuracy sake on situation like these through pegged tenons one doesn't want to blow the back out of the timber whilst disassembling the joint.



Just commenting about the undercutting tendencies of a flat or concave chisel.
Kinda difficult to give you an example, 
Had a folder disappear, but this might give a hint,
even though not as reliable as the above similar photo 
one might glean some insight into not undercutting the centre of the joint.
The aluminium tool or whathaveyou will find high spots, as tenting is done beforehand, for a situation where one doesn't have a standard side mortise and 
wants not undercutting.










The bellied chisel could speed this part up, and the flat chisel could be used for possibly finding a spot afterwards, if not going bananas with graphite.

I have reasons to chase better fitting components as I reclaim timber often, and can rip a piece without any gaps.
Just getting perfect results first, then speed things up a bit.
Something along the Klausz mantra, not that he'd approve my slow approach.


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> What is "tenting"?
> Not sure what your photo shows. Are you knocking the piece of ali through the mortice?



Reliably finding high spots after tenting 
Force is applied to the tool keeping it 90 degrees using a prepared length of timber.





Not reliably finding high spots with a similar setup, as force can not be applied 
this way reliably, but still useful for finding a lump.


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Maybe this will clear things up a bit


Nope. Not sure what you are on about at all!
Looks like you cut this with a bandsaw. I would have cut out most of the middle piece with the bandsaw too and just cleaned up with a same width firmer chisel. Or bevel edge. "Bellied" or not!
I don't like the expression "bellied" as it's a gross exaggeration of what a slightly lengthways convex chisel face looks like, and implies something is very wrong when it fact it is just normal.


Ttrees said:


> View attachment 140344


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## Ttrees (26 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> I don't like the expression "bellied" as it's a gross exaggeration of what a slightly lengthways convex chisel face looks like, and implies something is very wrong when it fact it is just normal.


It doesn't appear to act grossly exaggerated compared.
That's from someone who's never had a bellied chisel, but it seems a lot more controllable to me regarding heavy work and less likely to dull so fast because of it.
i.e having some steer ability.
Less tenting if you will, and finding high spots instead with a flat chisel!

I think both profiles would be useful to have.

Tom


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## Jacob (26 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> It doesn't appear to act grossly exaggerated compared.
> That's from someone who's never had a bellied chisel, but it seems a lot more controllable to me regarding heavy work and less likely to dull so fast because of it.
> i.e having some steer ability.
> Less tenting if you will, and finding high spots instead with a flat chisel!
> ...


I see the point you are making but still seems like over thinking. In reality you can do the job with a dead flat or a slightly convex one - it makes hardly any difference. In fact you could do it with a very bent hollow chisel if that was all you had - you'd turn it bevel towards the workpiece instead.
"Bellied" is a non issue. Best to forget the word altogether!
Had a look at some of my mortice chisels - most are convex along the length to some extent. It won't make any difference to anything!


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## CStanford (29 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.
> View attachment 140342


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## Jacob (29 Jul 2022)

Is that a question? See answer in previous post.
Basically you point the chisel to where you want it to cut, rather than missing it altogether by trying to use a curved chisel as a flat "reference" surface - it just wont work!
Simpler to forget "reference surfaces" altogether - it's an engineering concept and nothing to do with woodwork. what is a reference surface - Google Search
Though I suppose the floor (flat or not) could be a "reference surface" if you want to get chair legs the right length!


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## hlvd (29 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.
> View attachment 140342


This seems to be a modern problem I’ve never encountered, how do these chisels become so curved?


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## tibi (29 Jul 2022)

hlvd said:


> This seems to be a modern problem I’ve never encountered, how do these chisels become so curved?


They were bought that way from a hardware store. They were my first chisels when I had little to no clue what I am buying.


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## tibi (29 Jul 2022)

By the way. I have finally purchased Pfeil Carpenter's chisels. The steel looks excellent. Elm handles were a bit crude and under-finished, but I assume it is by design. A little bit of sandpaper work and 2 coats of linseed oil made them feel great in my hands. The initial impression is very positive, but I need to test them in actual work to see how they fit in hand.


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## hlvd (29 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> They were bought that way from a hardware store. They were my first chisels when I had little to no clue what I am buying.


You could probably bend them back a bit and re flatten.


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## D_W (29 Jul 2022)

hlvd said:


> This seems to be a modern problem I’ve never encountered, how do these chisels become so curved?



people do it unintentionally chasing the wire edge on the back of a blade. It's not a problem unless you're using paring references or something and want to make a flat cut. 

the first half inch or so of the chisel's length determines the direction of the cut, so if you're not using a paring reference, belly isn't a problem until it's so bad that you can't touch the wire edge from the back. 

it probably starts when someone works the back of a chisel on a stone that's not flat in width (especially), and then to solve not reaching the wire edge, they chase it further.


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## tibi (29 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> people do it unintentionally chasing the wire edge on the back of a blade. It's not a problem unless you're using paring references or something and want to make a flat cut.
> 
> the first half inch or so of the chisel's length determines the direction of the cut, so if you're not using a paring reference, belly isn't a problem until it's so bad that you can't touch the wire edge from the back.
> 
> it probably starts when someone works the back of a chisel on a stone that's not flat in width (especially), and then to solve not reaching the wire edge, they chase it further.


David, 

my chisels were not bellied because of overflattening the backs, but I have bought them that way. I use diamond stones, so they should be flat.


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## D_W (29 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> David,
> 
> my chisels were not bellied because of overflattening the backs, but I have bought them that way. I use diamond stones, so they should be flat.



Sorry, I didn't mean yours, but rather a lot of the older chisels that show up and the current trend of instructors to tell students to buy new chisels to avoid the bellying. David Charlesworth was big on that - but I remember seeing a DVD where he used paring blocks. 

I will say this - I've had an enormous number of patternmaker's chisels (parers and gouges), and none of them have been bellied. There's something to sloppier workers in the past doing it.

Last year, I started off making chisels with a little bit of curvature and then flattened the last inch, and I liked them quite a bit because of that relief. I think it's intuitive. Not a single one of the first three or four people I sent chisels to liked it, though. This wasn't a lot of curvature, just a little, and it was gradual and controlled. People do like chisels to be flat - but with some experience, I doubt anyone will care if anything more than a bad just at the edge of the chisel is flat. Dead flat backed chisels dive, anyway, and a toolmaker here told me long ago that the paring chisels made in the golden era had some flex to keep them from diving in the cut. There is some truth to that - rigid chisels will dive.


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## tibi (29 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean yours, but rather a lot of the older chisels that show up and the current trend of instructors to tell students to buy new chisels to avoid the bellying. David Charlesworth was big on that - but I remember seeing a DVD where he used paring blocks.
> 
> I will say this - I've had an enormous number of patternmaker's chisels (parers and gouges), and none of them have been bellied. There's something to sloppier workers in the past doing it.
> 
> Last year, I started off making chisels with a little bit of curvature and then flattened the last inch, and I liked them quite a bit because of that relief. I think it's intuitive. Not a single one of the first three or four people I sent chisels to liked it, though. This wasn't a lot of curvature, just a little, and it was gradual and controlled. People do like chisels to be flat - but with some experience, I doubt anyone will care if anything more than a bad just at the edge of the chisel is flat. Dead flat backed chisels dive, anyway, and a toolmaker here told me long ago that the paring chisels made in the golden era had some flex to keep them from diving in the cut. There is some truth to that - rigid chisels will dive.


Yes, I still need to try my new pfeil chisels in actual work. They seem to be a bit hollow, but only when comparing the edge to the furthest point on the back. If I were to measure the first inch, they are either flat or very slightly convex. But I think that it is in a controlled manner, as the engineering of the steel is very good. Also they came sharp with secondary bevel honed. Only handles were unfinished, as you warned me. I used some sandpaper and BLO and now they feel great.


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## Jacob (29 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> ... the current trend of instructors to tell students to buy new chisels to avoid the bellying. David Charlesworth was big on that - ...


He invented the idea and gave it the name.
Time to let it go!


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## D_W (29 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> Yes, I still need to try my new pfeil chisels in actual work. They seem to be a bit hollow, but only when comparing the edge to the furthest point on the back. If I were to measure the first inch, they are either flat or very slightly convex. But I think that it is in a controlled manner, as the engineering of the steel is very good. Also they came sharp with secondary bevel honed. Only handles were unfinished, as you warned me. I used some sandpaper and BLO and now they feel great.



I don't know why they make the handles like that, but I'm assuming that it's to save a few pennies. Their carving tool handles are reasonably well finished. 

A lot of chisels now go in automatic grinding machines that leave them ever so slightly hollow over their length deep into the tang, but most of it is not in the first two inches or so of the chisel. I have no idea why that is - it's unlikely to be on purpose. Just a bias of machines, maybe. their specs are "evasive", I'd say, at least in the US. 

Made of "swiss alloy tool steel". That's interesting (sarcasm), but their carving tools are straightforward no BS and good. I sold a lot of chisels off once I started making chisels - it doesn't make a great deal of sense to keep many around, those I got on a sale deal so I used them sparingly (no issues with them) and out the door they went. 

They put that type of secondary bevel on their carving tools, too - the only real complaint I have about anything they do is that they go through woodcraft here, who add an enormous markup on things and they're probably more expensive in the US (despite no VAT) than they are in any reasonably large market in the world with a VAT.


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## J-G (30 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> ...in the US (despite no VAT) than they are in any reasonably large market in the world with a VAT.


Can't let that go!! Of course you have VAT - you call it 'Sales Tax' but it's tantamount to the same thing.


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## D_W (30 Jul 2022)

J-G said:


> Can't let that go!! Of course you have VAT - you call it 'Sales Tax' but it's tantamount to the same thing.



Yes and no. It is a tax, it covers a smaller amount of things and around here where I live it's 6%. My county adds on another 1%. What I'm stating is that the price _before sales tax_ is more than your price _with _VAT.

Well, maybe not in England, but the price in Europe.

The internet business selling pfeil tools in canada could pay ebay fees, ship tools from canada (which is somewhat confiscatory rates) and still beat woodcraft by 15%.

Woodcraft has a high cost structure - and they seem to work to get a lot of exclusive distribution, which is a bummer for anyone buying things here as they also seem to have shut down the ability of any of the canadian businesses to ship pfeil tools to the US, or at least advertise that they do - so even if someone in canada would ship them here, you'd never know.

Sebo (unrelated to woodworking) is another irk of mine - one of their X7 vacuums costs $1049 here _plus tax. _That's $1122 or 920 pounds. I see the X7 on UK amazon for about 300 pounds. I'm guessing amazon adds vat after that, but ....jeez. (I have two of those vacs on different floors here - but I found them at a commercial supply house, one for $425 delivered and the second about 10 years later for a little over $500 - they're sold as "sebo commercial" in the UK. 

Marshall amplifiers are another, but those are US owned now. They're about double the cost here vs. what they are WITH VAT in continental europe.....and none of them are made in continental europe. they're so overpriced that they convinced me to just blow the money on a used two-rock amplifier, which I wouldn't have expected to even consider. 

Long diatribe!! I like pfeil chisels and would buy a lot more of they were priced at something other than "makes no sense" level here.


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## tibi (30 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> Yes and no. It is a tax, it covers a smaller amount of things and around here where I live it's 6%. My county adds on another 1%. What I'm stating is that the price _before sales tax_ is more than your price _with _VAT.
> 
> Well, maybe not in England, but the price in Europe.
> 
> ...


I have paid 20 - 25 Eur per Pfeil chisel, which is the same as in USD, as the exchange rate is now almost 1:1. I do not know what the prices are in the US.


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## tibi (30 Jul 2022)

tibi said:


> I have paid 20 - 25 Eur per Pfeil chisel, which is the same as in USD, as the exchange rate is now almost 1:1. I do not know what the prices are in the US.


I have checked it out and you pay at woodcraft double the price as here. 21.2 Eur for 6 mm chisel, compared to 39.99 USD.


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## D_W (30 Jul 2022)

I believe the set was around $250 for 5 plus sometimes shipping and always plus tax. 

You can see what I mean about the distribution mark up that doesn't do anyone favors here. It's excusive distribution rights and it really rams it to the buyer.


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## D_W (30 Jul 2022)

Revise that - it's that price for a set of 6. they are sold out here at that, too. 

I did something, and I can't remember what, to get the set for a fair bit less than that - some part of it was 10% off for signing up for a newsletter (which I canceled again right after the order). 

For the equivalent of $120 or 6, they are excellent.


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## vetman (2 Aug 2022)

Hello
I’m new to this forum and this thread caught my eye 
If you like Narex chisels, have a look at the ones from Axminster Tools. 
Seem well made with stainless steel ferrules and comfortable hornbeam handles. They are made by Narex. 
Can be bought as a set or indivually. 
You only need to flatten the half inch or so behind the cutting edge. Slight con cavity of the rest of the back can be useful to reduce jamming ( or so I read somewhere)
Hope this is useful


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## Jacob (2 Aug 2022)

vetman said:


> .......
> You only need to flatten the half inch or so behind the cutting edge.


Ditto all and every flat chisel


vetman said:


> Slight con cavity of the rest of the back can be useful to reduce jamming ( or so I read somewhere)
> ....


Sounds unlikely. Who gets chisels jammed anyway?


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## tibi (2 Aug 2022)

vetman said:


> Hello
> I’m new to this forum and this thread caught my eye
> If you like Narex chisels, have a look at the ones from Axminster Tools.
> Seem well made with stainless steel ferrules and comfortable hornbeam handles. They are made by Narex.
> ...


Thank you. I have already bought Pfeil chisels - that is what I have decided for. But I have bought two Narex Mortice chisels as well. I did not try them yet.


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