# Cascamite - In case I might.....



## jimi43 (9 Dec 2009)

.....be missing something!

All this talk of Dominos and biscuit jointer, Titebond...etc. has brought up a long running argument between me and an old guy in the village regarding new and traditional wood practice.

If I don't use beautifully flat wood glued with the boiled skin of a European Hare....or some other concoction then he just ignores the conversation.

NOW...whilst I am probably partly in his camp and partly in the new technology club....I thought I would seek opinion from the experts here as to your views.

His greatest "swear by" stuff is this:







He does qualify that statement by saying that it is ONLY for new wood...sticking (pun intended) to hide glues for repairs and restorations...

Looking it up I see the first "Googled" reference is this:



> Cascamite is a waterproof glue and is probably the must effective glue of all. It is a white powder and is resin based and should be mixed in a glass or plastic container, two parts water to one part cascamite. It must be stirred thoroughly until it becomes a smooth/creamy paste. Cascamite is a quality glue and is suitable for all furniture especially if used outside as it resists rain water.



SO....IN CASE HE MIGHT...be right...what is your experience of this stuff..?

I simply can't get it right...for now I am staying with Titebond.

Jim


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## woodbloke (9 Dec 2009)

Cascamite is a good glue and is waterproof (though not suitable for continuous immersion in water) It should be mixed to a smooth runny paste (most users mix it far too thick...it should drip off the end of the mixing stick) 
The big disadvantage(s) is that it has a limited shelf life and you have to use what's mixed. It also sets glass hard which is useful in some applications (laminating) but not in others (chair work) 
I used to use it all the time, but now stick to glue in a bottle which for most uses in the 'shop is the equal of a urea formaldehyde glue with none of it's disadvantages. 
Cascamite will also rip the edge of a plane if you try and clean it up when it's set :evil: Stick to TBIII :wink: and tell your pal to move into the 21st cent - Rob


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## squib (9 Dec 2009)

I used it alot when i was building boats (only for fitting out)but it became obsolete in our shop when epoxy resins appeared,a shame really because it is so easy to mix and can be cleaned up with a wet rag.I found it a little brittle but an excellent glue.


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## MikeG. (9 Dec 2009)

If you ever want something to stick so tight that it will never, ever come apart, and/ or you want the joint to be waterproof, this is your stuff. I used it for a series of end-grain breadboards last Christmas. It is many, many times stronger than Titebond. 

I made up a cross of scraps of timber, glued face to face with cascamite (or the new named stuff.........same thing). The following day I put it in the vice and tried to break it apart. Eventually, when I employed a lump hammer, I managed to seperate it into two pieces..........but it ripped the face off the wood rather than break at the glue line. It is amazingly strong.

Mike


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## woodbloke (9 Dec 2009)

Mike Garnham":14yodkuh said:


> If you ever want something to stick so tight that it will never, ever come apart, and/ or you want the joint to be waterproof, this is your stuff. I used it for a series of end-grain breadboards last Christmas. It is many, many times stronger than Titebond.
> 
> I made up a cross of scraps of timber, glued face to face with cascamite (or the new named stuff.........same thing). The following day I put it in the vice and tried to break it apart. Eventually, when I employed a lump hammer, I managed to seperate it into two pieces..........but it ripped the face off the wood rather than break at the glue line. It is amazingly strong.
> 
> Mike


I'm not sure about this Mike. Without some test data to back up that statement I'm doubtful. I've had the same experience gluing wood together with PVA...the wood will break rather than the glue line _and_ I had to belt it with a hammer. 
Remember an original 70's ad for Evostick where a Morris 1100 motor was suspended from a crane and held to the jib with PVA? - Rob


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## eg (9 Dec 2009)

In addition to what was said; the opening time of cascamite is way longer than that of TB & the like. So, in cases of a very long and complicated glue-up, cascamite has an advantage.

Eyal


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## woodbloke (9 Dec 2009)

eg":2yeca838 said:


> In addition to what was said; the opening time of cascamite is way longer than that of TB & the like. So, in cases of a very long and complicated glue-up, cascamite has an advantage.
> 
> Eyal


Forgot that one, you're quite right - Rob


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## Ironballs (9 Dec 2009)

Was there not a glue review (oh the excitement!) in F&C and a Yank mag in the last couple of years, covered pretty much all types from what I recall


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## head clansman (9 Dec 2009)

hi 

when i was a young apprentice at college on block release training in those day s, we did experiments on all glues available at that time just glued two pieces of off cuts together and then placed them outside for one yr , the only one still glued yep you guessed it cascamite , rock hard , it fact the wood had split but not on the joint , it is expensive and you must get the mix right in thickness and amount or you could waste quite a lot .hc


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## 9fingers (9 Dec 2009)

When I were a lad (quite a few years) :lol: my father used to use cascamite. I came in a blue and red tin which used to have a picture of two horses trying to put a joint apart.
I certainly don't remember anything he made coming apart and I still have one or two of them.

Bob


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## Alf (9 Dec 2009)

The question that occurs to me is do you need the strength of cascamite if the wood would fail first anyway with a lesser strength of adhesive? I don't have a particularly wide experience of adhesives, so I merely throw that into the (glue) pot for consideration and comment.

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (9 Dec 2009)

Because wood never stops moving, the flexibility of a PVA adhesive can, IMHO, be an advantage over the brittleness of Cascamite. However, in some situations, such as curved, laminated forms, where any sort of creep would be a problem, Cascamite would be a good choice. No single glue is ideal in *all* situations.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## ProShop (9 Dec 2009)

Cascamite or Polymite or any of the other name changes it's gone through these past few years  , is an excellent genuine gap filler, unlike most other glues which have poor/or no gap filling properties.

All glues have their pros & cons, There is definitely still a place for Cascamite in the modern world.


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## yetloh (9 Dec 2009)

Paul is dead right - there is no best glue for everything. I use urea formaldehyde (UF) glue - aka Cascamite - a lot. It is not a lot of trouble to mix and once you get used to it, there is not much wastage. It will stick to itself, unlike PVA, and I have never found its rigidity to be a problem although I accept that flexibility can occasionally have advantages. UF glues are for me the glue of choice for a gappy joint (not that I have many) and infinitely superior to polyurethane glues (which fill gaps with inherently weak foam) for this. They can also be cleaned up with water unlike PU or epoxy. 

But it is the open time which is for me the real major advantage of UF. Staged glue ups are often recommended but tiny errors in squareness can be cumulative and cause real problems on final assembly. Much better, in my opinion, to do it all in one go with a long open time glue. that way, small problems in squareness can be compensated and corrected with judicious angling of clamps. 

While I am wittering on about UF, Cascamite has not been made for some years. Polymite is available from Axminster but I use Resinmite from AG Woodcare. It is the same stuff but notably cheaper and they do a 750mag tub which is a really useful size. Good people to deal with too. 

May I also put in a word for hide glue. It's reversibility is a real advantage. How many of us have not taken a drawer or other frame out of the clamps only to find it is not quite square? With hide glue it is simplicity itself to fix - heat with a hot air gun and reclamp. Try that with Titebond. 

I do use pave but not a great deal but would certainly not criticise those who do. It is all about recognising the properties of different glues and doing what suits you and your style of working best. 

Jim


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## MikeG. (10 Dec 2009)

yetloh":2ovq05it said:


> I do use *pave* but not a great deal
> Jim



Is this a typo? Did you mean PVA?

I completely agree with everything you say about glues. A long open time can be a huge advantage in furniture making. What would be brilliant would be an indefinate open time, followed by instant curing on demand........a bit like the stuff dentists use.

Mike


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## yetloh (10 Dec 2009)

Yes Mike, I did mean PVA - too quick on the spell check! 

Jim


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## woodbloke (10 Dec 2009)

I haven't used a urea formaldehyde glue for years now, but I do recollect that the 'open time' was a distinct advantage. I stopped using it simply 'cos when it was left in the tin as a powder it just went 'off' probably because I was storing it poorly.
Question is then, if I were to get another tub of the stuff, what's the best way to store it and where?..outside in a cool shop doesn't seem to be the best place to me - Rob


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## JohnBrown (10 Dec 2009)

My father often used Cascomite, and I also remember the horses on the log - similar to the Levi jeans logo, but ultimately, I suppose, based on the Magdeburg hemispheres story. My father always told me that it was made from casein resin, which was effectively skimmed milk. He used to say that Mosquito planes were made of plywood and skimmed milk.


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## woodbloke (10 Dec 2009)

JohnBrown":2xy7gghb said:


> He used to say that Mosquito planes were made of plywood and skimmed milk.


I think this is when these synthetic resin glues were first developed...WWII aircraft industry - Rob


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## Jake (10 Dec 2009)

Mike Garnham":3k7vbktm said:


> A long open time can be a huge advantage in furniture making. What would be brilliant would be an indefinate open time, followed by instant curing on demand........a bit like the stuff dentists use.



There are RF cure glues - a bit industrial.


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## wobblycogs (10 Dec 2009)

Rob, I've tried to find out the chemistry of how Cascamite sets but I've drawn a bit of a blank. I'm guessing the water is just used as a solvent but it could be taking part in the reaction. Either way it appears that water getting into the can is the problem. At a guess Urea-formaldehyde is going to be fairly hygroscopic so stopping water getting it will take some effort. 

The best way to stop water getting in is to put the can in a plastic food box, sprinkling a desiccant around the outside and sealing the top. If you are really paranoid wrap cling film around the seal of the can and the plastic box too. If you want complete belt and braces pop the whole lot in the freezer. As a rule of thumb for every 10 degrees you drop the temperature the rate of reaction will halve. 

Regular salt will act as a desiccant but it's not very good at it. Bake it in the oven at 120 deg C before use. A much better (and safe, it's actually a food additive E509) desiccant is Calcium Chloride again baked before use. 

The only problem with this solution is getting it out each time you want to use it (which of course will introduce some water). If you only use it once in a blue moon I suppose it wouldn't be that much hassle.


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## 9fingers (10 Dec 2009)

It looks like cascamite is sold in plastic tubs now so should seal fairly well. The potential problem is the air space above the powder harbouring water. Keeping a range of ever smaller tubs to decant the powder into might be an idea together with some of those desiccant 'tea-bags' suitably re-generated in a moderate oven. 

Bob


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## wobblycogs (10 Dec 2009)

Smaller tubs would be good so re-opening isn't necessary but I'd still double box it for longer term storage. A plastic lid will seal pretty well but if the material is very hygroscopic it will be constantly trying to draw water in through the seal. 

Small linen pouches with silica gel (or very dry clay if you can't find silica gel) would be easy and cheap to make. I wouldn't place Calcium Chloride pouches on top of anything though as it can absorb enough water to turn into a liquid itself.

A cheap version of this http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Desiccator.jpg is what you want to aim for. The top and bottom halves have ground glass faces and are smeared with a little high vacuum grease. A vacuum line is attached to the top which sucks the two halves together making the seal air tight. Desiccant is placed in the bottom with a wire mash over it that rests on a lip. The vacuum helps dry a damp material by, essentially, sucking out the water which is then captured by the desiccant. As you can see small desicators (right) don't generally have vaccum valves.

Water is really very hard to keep out completely though. Some of the work I used to do was under a dry nitrogen atmosphere and even then it was possible to detect traces of water via side reactions.


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## xy mosian (10 Dec 2009)

How about keeping Cascamite in a plastic bag? That way you can store it with no extra air.

xy


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## dickm (10 Dec 2009)

JohnBrown":16ke7zup said:


> My father often used Cascomite, and I also remember the horses on the log - similar to the Levi jeans logo, but ultimately, I suppose, based on the Magdeburg hemispheres story. My father always told me that it was made from casein resin, which was effectively skimmed milk. He used to say that Mosquito planes were made of plywood and skimmed milk.



Hadn't thought of the Magdeburg connection, John - nice one.

But I think your dad was confusing CASCO, which was the long ago discontinued casein glue, with Cascamite. From memory, Casco came in the same tin, but possibly different colour. It was definitely not water resistant and if allowed to get wet after use, stank of sour milk before the joint fell apart. I *think* it was a version of Cascamite that was used in the Mosquito, but may be wrong.
W.R.T. storing Cascamite/Extramite or whatever it's now called, I've had some success dividing the pack into smaller containers, small plastic jars or even film cassette holders (remember them???  ) It's kept happily in these for a year or so.


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## JohnBrown (10 Dec 2009)

Well, Wikipedia has this to say


> The fuselage itself was separated by seven bulkheads made up of two plywood skins parted by spruce blocks, which formed the basis on each half for the outer shell. The bulkhead was a repeat of the spruce design for the fuselage halves; a balsa sheet sandwich between two plywood sheets/skins. Among the glues used was Casein resin plus many other screws and flanges (made of various woods) which held the structure together. After securing the two halves, the fuselage was covered with fabric and was then doped with cellulose dope which was either sprayed or brushed onto the surface. A coat of silver dope was then applied before exterior camouflage was applied. The underside was cut to allow for wing assembly.[32]



On the other hand, my father certainly wasn't infallible!


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## yetloh (10 Dec 2009)

I've found it stores pretty well in the tub over about a year or so in my, admittedly dry, workshop. The Resinmite tubs have a very tight fitting lid although I do wrap sticky tape round the seal for added protection. I think the idea of dividing it into plastic bags sounds a good one.

Jim


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## NeilO (10 Dec 2009)

Storing Cascamite tip....

Empty said contents from tub into a poly bag and expel as much free air as possible then tie with wire wrap ( can also be done with resealable poly bags to same extent ) then place back in orginal container so you know what it is in six months time  , then simply use however much and repeat the process.

HTH


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## Jake (10 Dec 2009)

I think I read somewhere that the first mosquitoes were built with casein and then they moved over to UF. Even vaguer memory that it may have been prompted by tropical theatre service.


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## JohnBrown (10 Dec 2009)

> tropical theatre service.


What - as in "it ain't half hot, mum"?


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## GraemeD (10 Dec 2009)

I think the glue they used for the Mosquito was Aerolite, which is similar to Cascamite, but a two part mix. Whereas Cascamite uses water to activate it, Aerolite has a liquid hardener which you apply to one face to be glued, and a powder glue which you mix with water and apply to the other face to be glued. When brought together, the glue hardens after a few hours....quicker than Cascamite, but still with a decent open time. The upside is that the mixed powder lasts a few days. The hassle is that it's a bit more effort to use than a one-part adhesive. Very strong though, and also very waterproof.

Many years ago I blagged some from the manufacturer who were local to me.....Ciba Geigy as I recall. They gave me a bit of a tour round the factory, and told me about the Mosquito heritage. One of those experiences that still leaves me with fond memories.

Seems to be still available at Axminster too!

Graeme


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## frugal (13 Dec 2009)

The bowyers I know use Cascamite when laminating longbows, as you really don't want one of those coming apart at the seams when at full draw


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## 9fingers (13 Dec 2009)

frugal":k5f823qt said:


> The bowyers I know use Cascamite when laminating longbows, as you really don't want one of those coming apart at the seams when at full draw



I'd have thought that casamite would have been too brittle for a bow but then again I have no experience of bow making.


Bob


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## woodbloke (13 Dec 2009)

9fingers":a636gp0l said:


> frugal":a636gp0l said:
> 
> 
> > The bowyers I know use Cascamite when laminating longbows, as you really don't want one of those coming apart at the seams when at full draw
> ...


Me too, I'd have thought you would have wanted something a little flexible for that application - Rob


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## jimi43 (13 Dec 2009)

> The bowyers I know......



I'm still reeling from the eloquence of FRUGAL with those four words....


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## Benchwayze (14 Dec 2009)

Cascamite never failed me.

The only drawback to it is that you usually mix more than you need and it's an expensive waste. 

I used it (when I could get it) for everything. Just like the 'old-timers' - older even than me - used hide-glue! I believe Cascamite is sold under a new name these days.

But is it ever expensive! So I now use waterproof PVA, and none of my stuff has fallen apart... yet! 

 

Regards
John


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## yetloh (14 Dec 2009)

This does't seem that expensive to me, http://www.agwoodcare.co.uk/gbu0-prodshow/resinmite.html certainly compared with Titebond or other well known PVA brands.

Jim


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## woodsworth (14 Dec 2009)

How expensive is expensive? It's £14 for a container of it. I can also get it in 25 KG bags. I haven't checked the price because i'd never be able to use it all before it's gone off. Wonder if it would be worth re-baging and passing on the savings to other woodworkers though. I'll find out how much the 25 KG bag is.


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## Benchwayze (14 Dec 2009)

yetloh":f0lmu8e3 said:


> This does't seem that expensive to me, http://www.agwoodcare.co.uk/gbu0-prodshow/resinmite.html certainly compared with Titebond or other well known PVA brands.
> 
> Jim



It is if you keep on mixing more than you need (Not always easy to gauge it!) 

But I think I can stretch to 750 grams for those jobs where I need it. Cheers Jim

John


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## woodbloke (14 Dec 2009)

Benchwayze":2bek1e7x said:


> ...I now use waterproof PVA, and none of my stuff has fallen apart... yet!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Same here John, I use TBIII for everything and I bought some Everbuild D4 PVA the other week which is supposed to be even better than a D3 adhesive.
I think the probably the biggest 'plus' factor for me would be the long open time of a urea-formaldehyde glue...something to bear in mind - Rob


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## Benchwayze (14 Dec 2009)

Rob, 

Having said my stuff is all okay, I forgot that No 1 Son will insist on leaning back in the dining chairs. 18 stones of solid bone and muscle did crack a couple of chairs, but it was the timber rather than the glue that failed! 

Must start thinking of some 1930's drop-in seat designs! 

:lol: 

John


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## jimi43 (14 Dec 2009)

Anyone tried the TITEBOND POLYURETHANE LIQUID GLUE yet....?

I bought a bottle at Axminster and haven't tried it yet.

Cheers

Jim


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## johnf (14 Dec 2009)

I've built a couple of boats using aerolite 306 if you want a waterproof joint that will never fail no matter how long it stays underwater that the stuff to use


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## woodsworth (15 Dec 2009)

I can get a 25 kg bag for £69 delivered. What is that equaled to, 16 1.5 kg tubs? that works out to be about a fiver for what the stores are charging about £14. makes cascimite look pretty cheap to use.


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