# Hello from a newbie - recommendations on bench grinder pleas



## Wouldchuk (12 Jan 2011)

Hello all, 

Just joined the forum so go gently!

I inherited a pretty good setup (RP CL4, electronic variable speed plus a range of chucks/tools) and took myself off on a weekend turning course - thoroughly enjoyed it and just need to find the time to get practising. My time has been spent ferreting around in hedgerows in a constant state of excitement, dragging home soggy bits of wood! 

Whilst I inherited a wide range of Sorby gouges and chisels, plus a Sorby Delux Sharpening System jig with fingernail profiler, I have only my old bench grinder - old carborundum wheels for maximum sparks when doing the lawnmower blades!

I would like to invest in a decent benchgrinder and wheels, but dont want to spend Tormek kind of money. I've seen various threads on the net which recommend a reasonably bog-standard grinder with either ruby or blue stones. 

As this grinder will be for primarily turning tools, should i look to one of the slow-speed models, or is this not necessary?
I had read elsewhere that 8inch wheels are preferable to 6inch wheels, but am not sure how critcial this is (considering i am a hobby turner at best!)

Axminster sell for 123quid the AW8SRG2 Slow-Running Grinder which uses 200mm/6inch wheels, 32mm wide, which I could replace with rubies or blues. Alternatively, there are cheaper standard speed models. At the top end, and at the very extreme of what I would be prepared to pay, is the Creusen HP7500TS, with 40mm wide white stones (it doesnt say whether they are 200mm or 250mm so i am guessing smaller of the two). 

Is there really benefit to be had from purchasing a) a slow-speed grinder over a normal, considering the extra cost? and b) is there real benefit from something as high-end as the Creusen, with its wide stones

Any other suggestions on suitable bits of kit/suppliers - I hear ToolPost are good for the wheels.

Thanks for any help - the first of many posts i expect as i get myself started...


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## Blister (12 Jan 2011)

Hi And WELCOME :mrgreen: 

You will get 2 side to this topic 

My view is this , heat is not good for High Speed Steel , Heat is caused by friction , and speed plays a big part in this 

I would go for a slow speed grinder preferably with 8" wheels as the smaller wheels will lead to a hollow bevel on your chisels 

Hope this helps 

:mrgreen:


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## SVB (12 Jan 2011)

As Blister said, you will get two sides to this.

Firstly, to deal with the friction point. Friction is proportional to the co-efficient of friction between a surface and the load applied. Given the co-efficeient is a function of the steel and the grinding wheel will be constant (hence why red / blue wheels generate less heat as they have a lower co-effiecent) your technique should not press the tool into the wheel but allow the weight of the tool to 'brush' the surface and let the grinder do its job. The harder you press, the more heat. 

Also, whilst extremes of heat are not good for HSS, you will let go of the tool before you major damage to the steel so that is a bit of a red herring (but a curcuail point if you will buy any carbon steel tools in the future - prabably unlikely but I know some pen turners who swear by the finer edge you can get for that finishing cut on some exotics).

Anyway, back to the question.

From the above you will see that slow running, IMHO is not essential for the sake of the tool. However, it is far more controllable and therefore gives less of the 'electric pencil sharpener' effect on small tools.

Re 6" or 8" wheels (BTW, 6" is 150mm and 8" 200mm - I think there is a typo in your question that I would not want to see cause any error in ordering), for me 8" is preferable as it does reduce the 'hollow' effect but again, this is marginal and I have swapped between tools I have sharpened on both without even noticing the difference so don't get too hung up on this.

Having said all of the above, to come off the fence if it were my money - as you have been (un)fortunate enough to inheret all the rest of the gear, I would buy the slow speed crusen and you will have a top quality set up - they really are the Rolls-Royce of the grinder world. I would not bother changing the white wheels for pink until they were worn out - yes there is a small improvement but as a hobby turner I would not worry. I know of plenty of pros using white wheels.

Simon

PS - another thought comes to mind. As you have a basic machine already perhaps a while wheel for that and consider the Sorby Pro-edge machine. I have never used / looked in detail at one but do a search on this forum and Wizer has one and did a very good review. However, more pound notes I think??


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## myturn (12 Jan 2011)

Hi, it sounds like you inherited a lot of nice gear.

If you can afford it go for the Creusen 7500TS rather than buy a cheaper one and then wish you'd got the Creusen.

I have the Creusen (with the Woodcut jigs) and it does everything I could ask of it. The wider wheels will last longer and give you more scope when swinging a large gouge across them. The white ones that came with it are still going strong after 2 years but when the time comes I will probably replace them with the blue microcrystalline ones.


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## Wouldchuk (13 Jan 2011)

Thanks for the advice - only thing i'm not sure on is what diameter the Creusen stones are - anyone happen to know if they are 6inch or 8inch (ignore my previous poor mm conversion!!)


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## myturn (13 Jan 2011)

The Creusen wheels are 6" (or 150mm :lol: )


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## Wouldchuk (13 Jan 2011)

Right - 6inch.... so what about the point made earlier about the difficulties of the smaller wheels affecting the grind achievable? i've definately read elsewhere that the 8inch wheels are preferable. Is the diffirence negligable - if Creusen's is such a top end machine for turning, its strange that they would opt for smaller wheels than are necessarily ideal?


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## Blister (13 Jan 2011)

Wouldchuk":20r8g10c said:


> Right - 6inch.... so what about the point made earlier about the difficulties of the smaller wheels affecting the grind achievable? i've definately read elsewhere that the 8inch wheels are preferable. Is the diffirence negligable - if Creusen's is such a top end machine for turning, its strange that they would opt for smaller wheels than are necessarily ideal?




They do 8" 200mm as well but not slow speed  

http://www.axminster.co.uk/creusen-creu ... prod22330/

If you use the microcristaline wheel and don't force it , keep dunking the chisel tip in water to cool it you will be OK


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## myturn (13 Jan 2011)

I've not used an 8" wheel so I can't say if I would notice any difference, I doubt it.

The big benefit of the Creusen is the slow speed and wide wheels, you can't go wrong with this grinder IMO.

p.s. there's some useful info from Peter Child


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## CHJ (13 Jan 2011)

Wouldchuk,
The difference in bevel curve between 150mm & 200mm wheels is of far less importance than the actual shape you will be trying to achieve on the gouges.

Using a 200mm wheel means that on a standard grinder the surface speed of the cutting grit is slightly greater and can remove metal a little quicker.

Likewise using a blue or pink wheel will give a sharper and cooler cutting action than a white wheel of the same grit size, not always of benefit to someone new to sharpening turning tools as a very light pressure is needed if large amounts of metal removal are to be avoided. They can be subject to increased wear rate, due to how their surface actually breaks down to maintain sharpness if not used with care and a light tool touch.

High Speed Steel (HSS) lathe tools are capable of withstanding high temperatures, indeed up to near if not red heat, they are standard choice for turning everyday steels found in the workshop so are very difficult to damage by overheating during normal sharpening.
If they start to colour through straw to blue it is most unlikely that you have damaged them but that is not to say this should be encouraged as it's an indication of poor cutting action at the wheel surface, either due to a glazed wheel needing dressing or excessive pressure applied to the tool/wheel contact.

HSS tools should not be quenched if there is any sign of colouring at the cutting edge, although not visible to the eye there is a chance that you will destroy the structure of the fine cutting edge due to the temperature shock and the cutting edge may be subject to minute micro cracking and failures which rapidly dull its cutting ability.

The more expensive brands of grinder are more likely to be supplied with well balanced wheels and run smoothly and last a couple of lifetimes, on the other hand low end grinders from someone like axminster should last you for the foreseeable future and provide good service, the only caveat being that they may need at worst a wheel type change to get best performance, at best may need some careful adjustment of wheel balance to obtain smoothest operation.

The quality of the wheels and how they are balanced and dressed is more crucial than the motor spinning them, and as mentioned elsewhere a wider wheel is easier to use especially with sharpening jigs.


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## Mike Wingate (13 Jan 2011)

I have a 6" Elu and a 10"Tormek. Make sure you have enough power to cut not rub and generate heat. My mate bought a cheap grinder that he could slow down and stop when grinding.


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## guyandzoe (13 Jan 2011)

I have the slow creusen and can recommend it. I also have a high speed 8 inch record which did me proud when I thought i couldnt afford any better. I am a bowl turner and have never noticed any difference in 6 or 8 inch wheels except to say I think a 6 inch wheel gives a bevel that rubs less and is easier to use fast and hard - but thats just how I work. I also have a tormek.

These days I only ever use the cruesen for a quick touch up or to reshape. The others lay gathering dust. One wheel is now about 4 inches the other has been replaced with a purply reddy thing from toolpost and its V good. But use the ones that come with the grinder (presumiong they are suitable for HSS) first to practice.


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## Paul.J (13 Jan 2011)

Hello WC and welcome  
I also now have the Creusen slow grinder which i managed to get second hand off a forum member,and have to say that it is a good grinder.
I used to have a Tormek but sold it on but kept the gouge jig and now use the Tormek BGM-1OO with the creusen,which i have set up on both wheels.


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## Wouldchuk (15 Jan 2011)

Well - i've taken a bit of a gamble and managed to get Creusen DS 7500 TS slow-speed grinder off flea-bay for 54 quid... seems an older model, same slow speed with the 40mm wide white wheels. My Google searches threw up pages in German or Dutch which when translated pitch this product as designed for the woodturner. Im not sure how old it is or whether it was widely sold in the UK originally - however, it seems very similar in specification to the newer HS7500 model currently sold by Axminster for 250 quid.

Even if i have to replace one of the wheels due to their condition with a wide ruby from Toolpost i think this could work out a good deal - any thoughts?

This is the link to the ebay sale, not sure if that will work:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWNX:IT


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## Paul.J (15 Jan 2011)

That looks fine to me WC.There might be a year of manufacture on the label,if it's there :?: 
The Creusens have a good reputation for lasting for ever so i can't see there been a problem with it.
I was gonna replace the white wheels on mine when i bought it but will do this now when they do wear out, with the pink wheels,as they are doing a good job.


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## Blister (15 Jan 2011)

Wouldchuk":8irnb2a9 said:


> Well - i've taken a bit of a gamble and managed to get Creusen DS 7500 TS slow-speed grinder off flea-bay for 54 quid... seems an older model, same slow speed with the 40mm wide white wheels. My Google searches threw up pages in German or Dutch which when translated pitch this product as designed for the woodturner. Im not sure how old it is or whether it was widely sold in the UK originally - however, it seems very similar in specification to the newer HS7500 model currently sold by Axminster for 250 quid.
> 
> Even if i have to replace one of the wheels due to their condition with a wide ruby from Toolpost i think this could work out a good deal - any thoughts?
> 
> ...



Looks good to me :mrgreen: 

you must be local ish , pick up from Orpington Kent 

You have not put your location in your profile yet ?


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## SVB (16 Jan 2011)

Woodchuk,

WOW - you had a steal. V. envious!

Simon


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## OldWood (17 Jan 2011)

I don't know anything about the sharpening systems that the OP has gone for, but I would like to add my penny-worth as a relatively inexperienced turner. 

I did some hunting about on sharpening systems when I started turning and spotted a 110v Tormek on Ebay that I got for a very comfortable price and was still well in pocket paying £20 for a 110v transformer.

Now the downside of the Tormek, and perhaps all the slower speed systems, is that they are great for tuning your tools, but of no use if you wish to change the shape of the tool - they just do not cut fast enough. In fact it would seem that 'fast enough' and good tool edge are not really compatible, so my opinion is that you need a basic cheap grinder with a white wheel to do the shaping and the slow speed machine to do the edge. 

The bonus of the high speed grinder is that you can have a bog-standard grey wheel on the other side to do all the other metal grinding that the average workshop/household needs. 

Rob


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## narrowboater (18 Jan 2011)

A builder friend of mine used to use a 240V angle grinder running of 110V through a transformer, to reduce the speed when cleaning out mortar for repointing brick work, This could, I stress could, be an answer for people who want a slow speed grinder.

It would also solve the problem mentioned above and give you the advantage of effectively having both a high speed and slow speed grinder. The problem being of course that you need a fairly chunky transformer.

I don't know if this a possibility, but I thought it was worth a post.

It would of course not help Old Wood, running a 110v unit off of a 240V supply would be a disaster. :mrgreen: 

Regards
Rod


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## OldWood (18 Jan 2011)

narrowboater said:


> It would of course not help Old Wood, running a 110v unit off of a 240V supply would be a disaster. :mrgreen:
> 
> Regards
> Rod



Only done that once many years ago with a cutting tool. Went to the US on business and changed my shaver charger to 110V - didn't remember when I got home to change it back! #-o 

Rob


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## narrowboater (18 Jan 2011)

Rob

Bet you got a fast shave, if not a long one.

Regards
Rod


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## CHJ (18 Jan 2011)

narrowboater":2n7gdk4j said:


> A builder friend of mine used to use a 240V angle grinder running of 110V through a transformer, to reduce the speed when cleaning out mortar for repointing brick work, This could, I stress could, be an answer for people who want a slow speed grinder.
> 
> It would also solve the problem mentioned above and give you the advantage of effectively having both a high speed and slow speed grinder. The problem being of course that you need a fairly chunky transformer.
> 
> ...




Totally unworkable on an induction motor as used in a bench grinder.
The angle grinder would have been a series wound commutator (universal ac/dc) machine (brushes) and would work with reduced voltage under light loads.
An induction motor will have very little torque if supplied with half voltage and indeed may well burn out due to the lack of RPM under load and the resultant excessive current consumption.


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## narrowboater (18 Jan 2011)

Chas

Thanks for that, I stand corrected.

Regards
Rod


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## CHJ (18 Jan 2011)

Rod, I should have added that the speed of an induction motor bench grinder is dependant on the frequency not the voltage, it will always try to run at its natural speed.

You might find Bobs (9fingers) article on the subject of interest.


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## narrowboater (18 Jan 2011)

Cheers Bob

It was just a thought, but I am not an electrician, thanks for the advice, as usual this forum is full of good info and advice.

I will read the article. I must admit that I use a Creusen DS 7150 TS grinder which turns at 2850 RPM, and I find that with a light touch it works fine, however it is easy to go a bit hard and overheat the tools.

regards
Rod


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## cyanide (18 Jan 2015)

I use the Creusen along with the Wolverine Jig made by oneway for all my sharpening. However I also keep a standard speed grinder along with the Sorby Fingernail profiler, this I use for shaping tools from old chisels etc or for putting the initial finger nail profile on a spindle or bowl gouge. Have had the Creusen for a long time and am considering changing to the diamond on metal wheels (CBN?) from The Tool Post


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## Jamie Copeland (18 Jan 2015)

Hi Wouldchuk

Welcome to the forum. I've recently joined myself and have found it a great resource!

Like you I'm new to Woodturning, but have heard great things about the Robert Sorby ProEdge sharpening system. Might be worth a brief look. That's the kit I'm intending to purchase.

Jamie


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## blackrodd (18 Jan 2015)

Welcome to the forum.
As it looks as if no one else will say, these posts, are 4 years old.
It's easily done not looking at the post date. Regards Rodders


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## woodfarmer (18 Jan 2015)

You could of course get a 3 phase grinder and use it in conjunction with an electronic 1-3 phase converter with variable speed. then you would have the best of many worlds 

Or fit a grinding wheel into your lathe.


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