# Forged hold fast's



## Anonymous (13 Oct 2006)

As I promised earlier this week here are some pictures of a pair of forged holdfasts I had made up by a local smith. They are 20 mm mild rod, about 20 inches long, about 8 or 9 inch max reach.
When they are fitted to the bench I'll post another pic  










Not bad for £40
They'll need some polishing on the area that contact the wood and a bit of a brush to get the mill scale off otherwise rady to go!!


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## engineer one (14 Oct 2006)

gawd, and i used to throw those kinds of things away as failures :lol: :lol: 

actually there are quite a few forges around these days so they might
well be easy to obtain. i knew of at least one in fulbeck lincs.

might well be worth soaking in phosporic acid, and then using a plastic
type coating to ensure that the wood does not get marked. are
the tails at a greater angle than 90 degrees to make it easier to get
the tension???

paul :wink:


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## Alf (14 Oct 2006)

engineer one":33h8lgj8 said:


> might well be worth soaking in phosporic acid, and then using a plastic type coating to ensure that the wood does not get marked.


 :-s Or just use a piece of scrap under the head like wot has worked for aeons... Engineers. :roll: :lol: 

Look good, Mr S. Had a vague thought in that direction myself for a while, plenty of 'smiths round here, but then I bought the Veritas one and the desire for one I can hit just vanished away.  

Cheers, Alf


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## David C (14 Oct 2006)

Splendid,

There are still a few excellent blacksmiths around.

I am tickled by the current interest in 18th century woodworking practices. (Adam Cherubini etc).

Setting a holdfast with a hammer is quicker than adjusting a clamp, but I just can't bring myself to drill those holes in my nice hardwood benchtops.

The sliding removable tool wells on my benches, allow clamping almost everywhere, while a holddown acts in a circle around each hole.

David Charlesworth


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## Anonymous (14 Oct 2006)

not bad eh??  

sadly theres smiths and smiths, some are "too occupied" to do small demanding jobs, they do mostly arc welding big scale architectural railings and gates etc and so on. It was nice to stand and chat next to his setting out table and draw out the design with chalk. 
I wont be encasing them in plastic, not that it wasnt a good sudgestion but it wont last 2 minutes in and out the bench holes. I was not too concerned about bruising on frames/gates etc if it was an issue I'd use a scrap block as alf sugested. In fact I saw somewhere out there that if you roughen the stems with coarse emory it grips better. I'll still polish the ends though less chance of rust.
Were the failures you spoke of engineer cast iron holdfas'ts?? I heard they are prone to break and wont take heavy punishment. I'm a speed freak the ease and speed of this system apeaels to me; I had bid on a pair of record screw down holdfasts but got pipped I was disapointed but did some research and found out about the forged sort which I hd seen a long while ago in the workbench book.
David why not just build a "crude" by your (exacting and excellrent standrds) bench, and drill some holes in it and have a go without worrying about the damage?! :wink:


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## engineer one (14 Oct 2006)

i would like to think i was being facetious :lol: 

but when you learn in the forge these are the kinds of things
you practice on, and of course are often junked.

anyway well done :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (14 Oct 2006)

Ah I didnt realise you were from a forge type of backgroud  

Ps we set them out with abpout a 5 or 6 dgeree toe in they look like tenor sax's :lol: :lol: Who knows they may ned a bit of altering or fine tuning
that smith makes absolutely bloody superb strap and pinttle hinges and t hinges


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## Anonymous (14 Oct 2006)

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## houtslager (14 Oct 2006)

> I'm always amused at the super quality "work" benches you see - about as sensible as french polishing a butcher's block!



and what's wrong with that ? :twisted: 



> if you can't drill holes, screw screws, nail nails, spill paint-beer-tea-glue, leave fag burns, make saw/axe/chisel marks, etc etc



too true, too many "arty" workbenches being made. 

The very first bench I made for myself was outta scaf boards  lasted years
in fact I sold it when I left the UK for fifty quid.  

Now I have one from my Uncle a very old ULMIA and my machining bench which I copied from FWW 

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ProjectsAndDesign/ProjectsAndDesignPDF.aspx?id=2625

mind you I'll be needing a "assembly table "so any ideas on this type will be looked at.

all the best ppl, HS in a grey but warm Germany


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## Anonymous (14 Oct 2006)

I think a bench is arty if IT rather than the work done on it is of greater importance, when it is a fashion statement rather than useful piece of kit. If that means fine inlay and finish, mega clean mega smooth, no scratches gouges etc fine, if it means a bench that carries the evidences of its developement & scars of its use, thats fine by me. Just because a bench looks lived in it doesnt mean its better than a well groomed one, it taks all sorts. My comment about a "crude" bench Mr charlesworth was sincerely playful and _not _intended as a snide or thread arguing provocation 8) Please no one take this in a wrong way, but is it possible to be so precision minded and "thorough" that woodwork becomes more like precision engineering? Or should woodwork BE like precision engineering? Coming as I do from an sculpture arty background, it did me a world of good to take on board the discipline of doing drawn rods cutting lists correct setting out of joints, cuting to a line, planing flat, drilling plumb etc etc, because I was TOO loose and instinctive.When I started at college the hardest thing for our drawing tutors was to get us to loosen up and draw with our whole arm and body not just our hand and fingers so they made us use 4 inch brushes on big paper no pencils allowed  

PS houtlager you may well already know it but theres some interesting ideas and drawings for assembly benches in George Ellis's book (modern practical joinery?)

Cheers Mr Spanton


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## Anonymous (14 Oct 2006)

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## MikeW (15 Oct 2006)

Lot's o' fun in this thread I see!

Very nice hold fasts, Mr. Spanton! Very nice indeed.

Boy, I could elect to have some fun with about every poster in this thread. Instead, I'll be a good boy. :lol: 

But I do like them hold fasts. That's a sure thing.

Take care, Mike


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## houtslager (15 Oct 2006)

MikeW said


> Boy, I could elect to have some fun with about every poster in this thread. Instead, I'll be a good boy. Laughing



go for it :wink: 

Mr Grimsdale asked


> What's a "planing beam" I've seen this mentioned a couple of times before?


You will see one in the Workshop book by Scott Landis. It is an Eastern method of bringing the work to waist height therefore allowing the body's mass to assist in the pulling of a plane over the work piece.

If you can wait a month Mr.G,  I'll be in some frame of organised chaos here, when I'll be able to get to my copies of FWW and send you a copy of the article [FWW 169 iirc] 

My w/s at the mo is the old kitchen in my new house, and looks like it will be so for a while yet.  and without 3 phase I cannot even get my machines up and running. So much RUST to remove before I can even think of using them. ( coming from 16 months sitting in my container )

all the best from a chilly Germany.HS


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## Anonymous (15 Oct 2006)

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## Anonymous (15 Oct 2006)

I though it might intrest you Jacob
Very simple knock up quickly, suit the job in hand. Not a million miles from a shaving horse?


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## Scrit (15 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":1cnk32h1 said:


> Please no one take this in a wrong way, but is it possible to be so precision minded and "thorough" that woodwork becomes more like precision engineering? Or should woodwork BE like precision engineering?


Yes it is. I've spent more than four years doing predominently CNC work - it's done almost to engineering standards in man-made materials in the main. Prescise, accurate and all identical - but it has no SOUL.



Mr_Grimsdale":1cnk32h1 said:


> Why do you need an "assembly bench" as such? I do mine on the bench, the floor, or on saw stools, on battens etc etc.
> We had an assembly bench where I did my training but I'm still not quite sure why.


I've had a low assembly bench on locking castors about 600mm off the floor for doing carcass assembly work like kitchen units. The height means you can work on the top of a carcass without stretching and the bottom without grovelling on the floor. Any glue squeeze-out just gets scraped off - after all it is just a bench. But I'd agree, a bit of a luxury if you haven't got the space, but a back/time saver if you have

Scrit


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## Anonymous (15 Oct 2006)

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## Scrit (15 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":139cj0v4 said:


> PS and an answer to the question of how you make your first workbench if you haven't got one already.


I must have cheated - I used a Workmate


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## David C (15 Oct 2006)

Jacob,

That's the difference between a joiners bench and a cabinetmakers bench!

These are two different trades, with different working practices.

Cabinetmakers need flat true surfaces and use them almost like an engineer uses a surface plate. Try hand planing 5/16" hardwood drawer sides on a not flat bench.

Neither is superior just different as is carpentry. Complex cut roofs get my admiration, as do some of the astonishingly complex windows.

The cast Record holdfasts with the screw action clamping pads, must be one of the nastiest perversions ever. If I had started with nice forged ones, the habit might have stuck.

David Charlesworth


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## Anonymous (15 Oct 2006)

David C":n985kxmz said:


> The cast Record holdfasts with the screw action clamping pads, must be one of the nastiest perversions ever. If I had started with nice forged ones, the habit might have stuck.



Looks like I had a lucky escape then David :lol: :lol: I was bidding for a pair on ebay but lost out!! Is it just that the record ones are bad example or is it the concept of the screw holdfast that is as you describe?
cheers Mr Spanton


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## David C (15 Oct 2006)

Don't know, 
but I had the Records in the beginning and they tended to make the work fidget at the crucial moment.

David


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## Paul Chapman (15 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":m92nrlb2 said:


> Is it just that the record ones are bad example or is it the concept of the screw holdfast that is as you describe?



I've had a Record holdfast for about 30 years. I don't use it much these days. One of the reasons is that as you tighten up the screw the wood that you are trying to clamp moves slightly. Sometimes this won't matter but at other times it will and is really irritating. I don't think it is a problem peculiar to the Record and would tend to happen with that pattern of holdfast. Not sure if it happens with the Veritas, which I believe is the same general pattern but does not use a metal collar in the bench top. Perhaps someone who uses the Veritas could comment?

Paul :wink:


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## Alf (15 Oct 2006)

Don't recall being conscious of the Veritas moving the wood as I tighten up, but on the other hand I'm not sure really how vital that small movement might be or if I unconciously allow for it anyway. My quibble with the Marples/Record variety is the metal collar complicates bench flattening. I've got one somewhere, sans collar, but I doubt I'll ever both finding a collar and fitting it. Not to a bench anyway.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (15 Oct 2006)

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## Paul Chapman (15 Oct 2006)

Alf":2u1um8ib said:


> My quibble with the Marples/Record variety is the metal collar complicates bench flattening.



Good point, Alf. However, if you don't have a hardwood bench and the top is made of something relatively soft, say MDF, the metal collar might be necessary to avoid excessive wear. A holdfast of the Record/Veritas type can exert considerable pressure and I could envisage the holes drilled for it in an MDF bench top soon becoming elongated :wink: 

Paul


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## Paul Chapman (15 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":rvcvcftp said:


> Would the others work anyway if you just dropped them into a hole of the right diameter?



Hi Jacob,

I think the Record would work without a collar. The action of tightening it forces it to an angle slightly off vertical and there are indentations along the back of the post which would tend to grip on the top edge of the hole :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (15 Oct 2006)

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## engineer one (15 Oct 2006)

there are in fact a number of books about shaker furniture,
and many amreican mags contain articles about it, 
but too much i agree only shows the outside, not the construction.  

paul :wink:


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## Frank D. (15 Oct 2006)

My Veritas holdfasts are some of the most-used tools in my shop (my bench doesn't have any vises). I've never noticed the work moving as I tighten them, but I just went and double-checked: nothing moved at all.


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## Anonymous (15 Oct 2006)

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## David C (16 Oct 2006)

Quote from page 42 of Alan Peters' book, 'Cabinetmaking the Professional Approach' now disgracefully out of print.

"It should be perfectly flat, and dressed periodically to ensure this; and its surface needs to be waxed so that any spillage of glue, for example , will simply peel off".

also "you need to treat your bench as a precious piece of equipment and care for it as you would the bed of your planer".

"And if you must repair the lawnmower on its surface, or are using resin, protect it with a sheet of hardboard first, or better still have other bench surfaces set aside for such activities".

David Charlesworth


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## Anonymous (16 Oct 2006)

David, I was having a smirk today :lol: :lol: thinking how rediculuos it would have been to have made lets say a plough beam with guilt ormoulu harness chain fittings or a barn door with string inlays and veneered panels :roll: or a gents rocooco commode with a suffolk latch and strap and pintle hinges on the folding bit :roll: :roll: :lol: 
Your comments about distinct trades of joiner and cabinet maker brought a sense of proportion. The great thing about wood work's is that it can encompass such diverse activities. Personally I gravitate more towrads what Jacob described as counrty furniure type joinery. I like the type of sound simple joinery you see especially in rural france where wood items have a certain character which you cannet get with routers and belt sanders. And of course a sharp joiners axe is a much under rated tool as well :wink: 
Cheers Mr Spanton


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## David C (17 Oct 2006)

Very fond of country furniture myself. Though the stuff which gets put in expensive French ski chalets is rather weird, generally knocked up out of wormy old floorboards.....

I understand one aspect of this this to be the local craftsman-joiner-carpenter-undertaker's version of what was fashionable in the big bad city, simplified.

Possibly made with fruitwoods, oak ash beech etc rather than the prohibitively expensive fashionable woods like Mahogany Satinwood or Rosewood.

Chris Becksvoort kindly showed me round the Sabbath Day Lake Shaker community in Maine.

I was surprised to see the earlier rustic style, not dissimilar from any working farmers furniture, and also the later more decorated Victorian style of work. The classic refined simple style which we see on a regular basis apparently only existed over a 40 year period. 

David


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## Anonymous (17 Oct 2006)

This is a good example of what I mean

























These are mostly english, non gentry, non peasent stuff!!

I recently saw a local showroom with a notice outside-"solid furniture, NO mdf, NO flat pack, NO chipboard..." you get the idea. I thought oh this looks promising lets have a look what this local maker is up to. I saw a oak dresser and I said was this made locally? he says yes, _in china_ :roll: :roll: they export red oke from America send it to sweat shops in xiandong or wherever and the suits make a killing :roll: :roll: :roll: perhaps some of that "chalet furniture" comes from china as well??


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## Anonymous (17 Oct 2006)

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## Anonymous (17 Oct 2006)

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## Anonymous (17 Oct 2006)

Just pictures from the web
My Dad tried tyo get me interested in this sort of stuff when I was young but its not till now age 45 that its begun to mean anything to me.
With winsdor chairs the older the better as far as I'm concerned. The ones with gothick splats claw feet cabrioile legs etc are missing the point. In fact I dislike most all english winsor forms but prefer the welsh 3 leg back stool and the irish gibsons. Its the puritannical streak in me doesnt apreciate ostentacious ornamnet :shock:  :wink: And I like the understudied "wonkiness" of some furniture types as well. 
That elm top on the tripod table is unbelievable!!
Cheers Mr Spanton


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## Anonymous (17 Oct 2006)

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## bugbear (23 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1d8jeu8i said:


> David C":1d8jeu8i said:
> 
> 
> > Cabinetmakers need flat true surfaces and use them almost like an engineer uses a surface plate. Try hand planing 5/16" hardwood drawer sides on a not flat bench.
> ...



If your bench isn't flat, the problem David refers to is the thin workpiece flexing under the planing stroke.

If the bench is (e.g.) concave, the thin workpiece will conform to the bench under the pressure of the planing stroke. Hence (obviously?), the nice flat surface you cut on the upper face will NOT be parallel to the other face of the workpiece when you pick it up (and the workpiece resumes it's natural state)

This may be confusing 

Your bench must (therefore) be as accurate as you wish your work to be.

I had this problem (in spades!) when trying to plane 36x1x1 timber...

BugBear


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## Anonymous (23 Oct 2006)

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## bugbear (23 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1ki65yun said:


> If stable but not flat you work out how and where to plane by _looking_ at it when held freely i.e. not clamped, and not relying on the flatness of the surface.



If you want to plane in the middle, and your bench is concave, thou art bugerred.

So I stand by my claim to require a pretty flat bench.

I could bodge around it, by using wedges and shims and planing boards and stuff, but I'd rather (simply?) have a flat bench.

Also useful when using scribing gauge techniques stolen from our friends the metal workers.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (23 Oct 2006)

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## bugbear (23 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":mnwvjiri said:


> bugbear":mnwvjiri said:
> 
> 
> > Also useful when using scribing gauge techniques stolen from our friends the metal workers.
> ...



A scribing gauge is a simple "point on a stick".

In use, the work piece is fixed (by whatever means neccessary) to a flat surface.

Since the workpiece is now in a "defined" relationship with a flat surface, the scribing gauge can now mark the workpiece by reference to the surface, not the workpiece.

This can (sometimes) provide a unique means of marking.

For example, if the "nominal" reference edge of the workpiece isn't continuously straight, a normal gauge won't do.

Or if the workpiece is a funny shape, a surface gauge will reach into even more places than a pattern maker's "grass hopper" gauge.

For example, if you had made a skewed, but flat cut on one end of an irregular (e.g. sculpted) log, how (otherwise) would you mark a parallel flat cut, 1 1/2 foot away?

It's a powerful technique to tuck away in your armoury.

(with reference to the stock prep issue, it would allow you to chock or wedge a workpiece, and then trace a perfect "planar" line around the periphery)

BugBear


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## Anonymous (23 Oct 2006)

Heres My way of using bugbears technique











My refernce plate is a 2 inch tick concrete slab. I use wedges to level up, using the mortar lines on the house as a sight or a stabila level if I want to be especially acurate. I use a block and run the pencil on top of it and scribe round the ends of he legs then trim them off and the chair or stool will always lie level without rocking :lol:


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## David C (23 Oct 2006)

Bugbear,
Judging by your relative silence recently, have you been on holiday?

Scribing parallel lines from the bench surface can be very useful if you want to see how thick a board it is possible to get from a twisted or wavy plank.

I think we are all agreed that flatness is important, whether one chooses to hammer in nails etc is just down to personal choice, but does not seem to meet the 'Peters' prescription.

David C


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## Anonymous (23 Oct 2006)

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## Anonymous (23 Oct 2006)

Jacob, that was a chair I made with plain seat, rived legs and spindles, and a 3 part arm










Theres a few types of timber framing layout where you create an imaginary _virtual_ "reference surface" that you visualise within the beam and temporily mark, and mark mortices and tennons from that  
Square rule "imagines" there to be a perfect PSE timber encased within a rough out of square beam, so you work from that for marking lengths and positions of mortices and tennons so they line up despite waney edges/twisting/bowing etc. The virtual reference surface becomes an actual surface for all tenon shoulders to lie on.
scribe rule is happy to let a rough out of square beam stay as such structurally and just imagines a plane that cuts through the beam and you mark your joint positions from that, all the timbers are laid out relative to each other in a perfectly horizonatal plane over a full size rod while the joints are scribed (basically like doing skirting boards) you can get tennon shoulders to wrap perfectly round out of square or even wany beams Then when its all draw pegg'd up it'll assume its horizontal form 8) 
Cheers Jonathan


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## Anonymous (23 Oct 2006)

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## David C (24 Oct 2006)

For a valuable highly figured hardwood plank. a little extra time spent, to get the desired thickness is well worth the effort.

Again we diverge because of the differences between cabinet and joinery work!

David C


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## Alf (24 Oct 2006)

Oh Mr S, enough with the tantalising details - wanna see the whole chair! ](*,) :lol:


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## bugbear (24 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":3o8esgwm said:


> Heres My way of using bugbears technique
> 
> My refernce plate is a 2 inch tick concrete slab. I use wedges to level up, using the mortar lines on the house as a sight or a stabila level if I want to be especially acurate. I use a block and run the pencil on top of it and scribe round the ends of he legs then trim them off and the chair or stool will always lie level without rocking :lol:



Very neat - and hard to do any other way.

Here's the posh version of a point on a stick (cheap at boot sales if you wait long enough, and buy rusty enough)

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=4038

BugBear

(PS - those were more 1/2 meg photos, Mr Spanton...)


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## Anonymous (24 Oct 2006)

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## Anonymous (24 Oct 2006)

Intertesting picture Bugbear. My wife used to use a similar device for dressmaking to get hemlines parallel to the floor :lol: 
What would they use that for in engineering then?

PS I can see what you and Mr charlesworth are saying about a flat flat bench, its like the bench is like the table on a jointer machine where flatness is transferred to the stock through the table surface. But I think theres also a case as Jacob said to rely on your eyes and feel and work to a marked line as well. And as he said a flat bench is no use until you have a good flatted face to place on it any way, then it comes into its own
I think its just a case of what level (sorry lousty pun :roll: ) or degree of flatness you think is necessary depending on the nature of your work.
Cheers Jonathan


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## Anonymous (24 Oct 2006)

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## bugbear (24 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":r7ypzm83 said:


> Bit rough and ready and won't guarantee a horizontal top, but quick.



Yeah - again, it's not a matter of right/wrong, it's a matter of required accuracy versus hassle or time.

Of course, the slow *AND* inaccurate methods got weeded out years ago...

BugBear


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## David C (24 Oct 2006)

I like 18th century technology.

I can understand and use it. (Unlike Pooters)

{The weedkiller obviously missed me!} 

Silly me, I read that as slow and accurate please ignore pathetic attempt at joke.....

David C


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## engineer one (25 Oct 2006)

Mr S. the marking gauge in metal working is one of the things that i 
both have now, and used in the shop in the past.

remember that the basic premise in metalworking is that all
"reference" surfaces are flat and taken off a reference plate.
this is generally a cast iron plate which is accurately machined
to be flat within about 1 thou.

any holes to be drilled, or surfaces to be flattened too would be
marked from the bottom of the item, which was placed on the reference
surface. a nice coating of the wonderful engineers blue ( or where is it 
these days :? :twisted: ) was placed, on the various surfaces to be 
marked, and then when dry, the dimensions were set from the surface
on the gauge, and the scriber marked relevant points. 

as with woodworking where possible you had two surfaces at right
angles with each other so that before all these modern machines,
you could for instance mark a cross for the centre of a drill hole.

or if you were filing down to a line, that would be marked by 
the surface gauge too.


the relevance to cabinet makers is that of course you are only using 
two surfaces to measure from, but metalworkers tend to use the 
plate as the base not the material itself. therein lies the difference
from most woodworking.

if you follow D.C's method, your worktop is flat and thus can be used
as the reference, whereas i was taught that the woodworker gauges 
of one side of the wood onto the other, rather than from the 
reference surface.

hope that makes sense of part of it.

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (25 Oct 2006)

morning Engineer  
Thanks for that description. Its fascinating all these various aspects of technology that you can make use of to devise techniques etc. I sometimes think its a mystery why they work or how they work especially triangulation for creating rigidity, or why a circumference is 6 radius's, or why 3/4/5 makes a 90 deg angle? where does it all come from? :idea: 
When you say "before all these modern machines" is that cnc machines?
Does the reference plate (even a virtual one) come into play when converting drawings into cnc data?
At one time I worked for the leading sign company in the UK. We did sign contracts for top clients such as British airways, ford Garages, BP (remember the hoo hah in the sun when they "changed" their logo?? :lol: ) I was employed as a digitiser, plotting points to operate the cutting machines (knives for vinyl signs, routers for wood plastic or metal ones) On that I started out by drawing a reference "base line" from which all other points were then plotted (like triangles).
In jim Kingshott's workshop book he said he could plane stock to correct thickness by feel most importantly because the bench was flat _and level_ as well. But even then he'd presumabaly need a marked line to work to if only to know when the correct thickness was achieved?
Again thanks for sharing good useful stuff
chees Jonathan


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## Anonymous (25 Oct 2006)

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## engineer one (25 Oct 2006)

yes i would always think that there is a reference base in any 
programme, other wise how do you know where you are working 
from?

as for other things what i need to know is how a greek philospher
came up with Phi as the figure it is? :twisted: :? 

paul :wink:


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## cutting42 (25 Oct 2006)

engineer one":fwb0edrh said:


> as for other things what i need to know is how a greek philospher
> came up with Phi as the figure it is? :twisted: :?
> 
> paul :wink:



Pythagoras was more a mathematician than philosopher AFAIK and Phi was just a bit of algebra, meat and drink to him I would have thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio


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## bugbear (25 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3uvnte9h said:


> mr spanton":3uvnte9h said:
> 
> 
> > a circumference is 6 radius's,
> ...



well, pi isn't really 22/7, but I take your point.

BugBear


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## engineer one (25 Oct 2006)

nice link gareth, still does not answer my favourite question which is 
since pythagorus was greek and his empire was stuffed by the romans,
who did not have a zero in their numbers how did the number get where it is??? :? :twisted: 

you imagine trying to do the sums in latin numerals????? :twisted: 

the other wonder is with all the stuff lost during those wars, how much 
knowledge did we lose that could explain these numbers. :roll: 

anyway, re the marking gauge again. notice steve maskery's article in the latest GWW about a marking gauge, and not to demean what he has written, this is an ideal situation for the tatty old engineers scribing stand,
and either an analogue or digital dial gauge on the pillar. if bugbear is right they are extremely cheap at boot sales, so might be worth the effort.

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (25 Oct 2006)

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## engineer one (25 Oct 2006)

nice one jacob, the only thing i disagree with is that latest research suggests that the number zero was sanskrit, and comes from the indian sub continent. stones have been found and dated before babylon as
i understand it from a recent tv series about maths.

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (25 Oct 2006)

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## bugbear (26 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2o2kreaf said:


> engineer one":2o2kreaf said:
> 
> 
> > nice one jacob, the only thing i disagree with is that latest research suggests that the number zero was sanskrit, and comes from the indian sub continent. stones have been found and dated before babylon as
> ...



sounds a bit theoretical for you, Jacob!?

BugBear (who also got a copy from a charity shop)


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## engineer one (26 Oct 2006)

may be a bit theoretical bugbear,but i am sure it is an original 
"caxton" print jobbie :lol: :twisted: :twisted: 

actually those old engineering and maths books are really fascinating.

paul :wink:


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