# Ashley Isle's Chisels - So Dissapointed



## Petey83 (4 Apr 2017)

Well my new set of Ashley Isles Chisels arrived today - bought as a belated birthday gift. I was really excited to get them and felt buying British was a big positive. Upon opening them it took all of 30 seconds for my excitement to turn to disappointment..... not one of the chisels was square and it was overtly noticeable to naked eye without a square. All 6 of the in the set had the same issue to some degree with it being more obvious and pronounced on the 1", 3/4" and 1/2".

Here is a pic of one of them....


Full marks to Alex at classic hand tools for the excellent customer service, I think even he was shocked at the photos i sent through. Anyway I've now arranged an exchange for 4 Lie Nielsen's and will add the 1" and 1/8" at a later date as funds allow (they don't have the 1" in stock and i had already added another £80 to the cost of the AI's)

I really wanted the AI's to be good, I really wanted to have a set of modern British made chisels. If it had just been one of them that had an issue I may have sent it back to be re-ground but for it to be all 6 just ruined it for me sadly. Let's hope Clifton can restore my made in Britain confidence when I finally get the money saved for a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2.


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## galleywood (4 Apr 2017)

I can see that they are not ready to use straight out of the box, but then again I assume you would be flattening the back and honing a cutting edge yourself anyway.

Have you pics of the LNs for comparison?


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

gahh...I just ordered a set of them, too. Someone named Andy emailed back and forth with me (was it AndyT on here?). They also came like that. I honed them square. I had Lie Nielsen chisels in the past, but Lie Nielsen's chisels are a construction chisel pattern. the mark 2 chisels are a wonderful pattern and at half the price. I eventually sold all of them - they are obscenely nicely finished, but the fascination with that wears off quickly once you're using them. 

The other issue is that the Lie Nielsen chisels are A2 steel, which is a completely senseless steel for chisels. A2's advantage is wear, but that's not what causes chisels to get dull, so you get a steel that is more selective in terms of sharpening means, but that offers no real benefit between sharpenings in terms of longevity.

I have also noticed over the years that the amount the chisel is shown is out of square, if you're using the chisels for dovetails or to clean up tenon shoulders, it won't make any difference. It's easy to hone out and then regrind, and the chisels are technically better for cabinetmaking and at half the price. 

Tough market for makers to sell tools in these days. No offense meant by that, I've just noticed in the last week or so watching a couple of people who are doing chisel reviews recommended on ebay - if the reviewer has to break out anything other than a medium diamond hone to flatten a new chisel, they're really complaining about quality. I suggested to one reviewer that they should get a roll of PSA 80 grit paper for $10 and flatten everything they'll ever get that's not perfect in a minute or two, and their only response was "shouldn't have to". Boggles my mind. We have to get to the point that we're making or modifying our own tools eventually to progress in woodworking - the magazines and blog experts are doing everyone no service when they convince us we shouldn't have to do anything at all to a new tool. The market has become a group of relatively helpless purchasers forgoing really nice tools (like these chisels) for minor issues.

For the less than $30 each that the AI Mk2 chisels cost me, I can't imagine trying to make them for that, bevel out of square or not.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Apr 2017)

Why do they need to be square ? Makes no difference to how well they'll cut !

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## cowfoot (4 Apr 2017)

Took me less than an hour to flatten the back, square up and sharpen my new set of 6 by hand. Quite enjoyed it, too.
Fair enough, if you pay L-N or Veritas prices (more than double, IIRC) you might expect them to be ready to use immediately, but as far as I'm concerned Ashley Iles make lovely tools for a reasonable price.


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## transatlantic (4 Apr 2017)

It doesn't matter how much I paid for a set of chisels. I'd expect them to be square. Surely that is one of the easiest operations in the manfacturing process?


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## Petey83 (4 Apr 2017)

I was never expecting them to be ready to use out the box and would of gone through the usual process of flattening the back and then honing a primary and secondary bevel but to need to grind them square from new just does not seem right to me :? (I am new to bench grinder use as well) The Narex chisels i have just sold on as these were to replace them were all perfectly square out the box. Appreciate the AIs are hand ground as opposed to CNC machined like most others - maybe i just got a Friday afternoon set.....

I wont get the LN's until later this week - already aware of the A2 steel and it being harder to sharpen than o1 or PMV11 but thats not a deal breaker for me as its a hobby and not a living for me. As for the fit in the hand - can honesty say they seemed ok when i had a look at them previously.

I am not saying AI are rubbish I am just saying i am disappointed as no where had i read that this is what i should expect.


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## AndyT (4 Apr 2017)

D_W - It must have been a different Andy - I don't have any modern chisels. I only have about four that I bought new and they were decades ago.

That said, buying chisels is a bit like buying pencils, isn't it? If they come sharpened at all, it's just a demonstration to show that they can be sharpened. Every proper edge to really use will be up to the owner, according to their own needs and taste. 

I can see that it would take a bit of the shine off a new set if they were all out of square, but I don't think it's a big deal over the lifetime of the tools.


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

AndyT":2ahlih76 said:


> D_W - It must have been a different Andy - I don't have any modern chisels. I only have about four that I bought new and they were decades ago.
> 
> That said, buying chisels is a bit like buying pencils, isn't it? If they come sharpened at all, it's just a demonstration to show that they can be sharpened. Every proper edge to really use will be up to the owner, according to their own needs and taste.
> 
> I can see that it would take a bit of the shine off a new set if they were all out of square, but I don't think it's a big deal over the lifetime of the tools.



Ahh...i'd have to go through my now deleted order history (hoarder history?) to see who it was that I was talking to, or even who it was that I bought them from - they are new purchase, so I've got you confused for someone at one of dealers. Delightful chisels, though. 

edit...just looked it up, I did keep my order history, and it's from someone named "Andy Taylor" at classichandtools. 

Assumptions...you know what they say about them!


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## iNewbie (4 Apr 2017)

I didn't know LN had stopped production of their chisels in 01 steel.

I thought the AI chisels didn't need the backs to be, flattened - like Japanese chisel they have a dish to them?


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

iNewbie":ia0ad4fz said:


> I didn't know LN had stopped production of their chisels in 01 steel.



They stopped O1 stuff a while ago. A couple of ancillary items are probably still made in O1 - like moulding plane blanks. 

I don't know if they gave a reason, but I suspect that they find the air hardening steels easier to deal with in terms of distortion. At least that's what George Wilson told me. 

Early on, they used water hardening steel and had a lot of problems with it. 

It seems like the modern toolmakers are really consumed with precision, except the English makers are a little more in the old tradition where you let the process "come to you" a little more, as AI does with leaving the hollow on the back of the chisel. 

I think if I said something to LN about irons being better with a hollow in the back along their length, their eyes would probably cross. 

In terms of O1, I've maybe been lucky thus far, but I've noticed that always (almost always?), the side opposite the bevel is where the cup ends up after quenching. That's entirely desirable.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Apr 2017)

I find it odd you've judged how good the chisels are, by whether they're square ! 
What happens if your grinding/honing skills aren't 100% ? Will you keep grinding and honing til there's nothing left ? What about how well they take and hold an edge ?
I'd personally concentrate on them being sharp all the time, instead of them looking pretty.
Im guessing the majority of my Ai chisels aren't bang on square. Makes no difference to how sharp they are, or how well they perform in use.

Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Apr 2017)

I've just held a protractor to the photograph, and as near as I can tell, the out-of-squareness is about 1 1/2 degrees. Given that the first thing anybody will do with a new chisel is hone it for use (after honing off any grinding marks from the flat side), it's not really much of a problem to correct even by honing; a touch on a grinder would be even quicker.

The OP is of course perfectly entitled to return any goods bought by mail order, and has exercised his right to do so. However, I doubt I'd have even complained. Maybe that particular chisel isn't 'perfect', but knowing that AI chisels are ground throughout by hand and eye, it would be 'near enough' for me.


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":2wguwufa said:


> . Maybe that particular chisel isn't 'perfect', but knowing that AI chisels are ground throughout by hand and eye, it would be 'near enough' for me.



I like that part - something that has a little variation seems a lot more human than something that is taken to NASA specs to be made absolutely identical in every case. Lively. 

The chisels could be used out of square as they are above without noticing it other than seeing it (they'd still stab straight through a dovetail pare or malleting). 

I don't blame the OP, though, I blame the woodworking magazine community that puts out reviews and complains about things like this and then subjects readers to thinking they should pay two to three times as much for elements that don't affect performance. 

I checked my total bill (since we don't pay VAT here) for my recently acquired chisels - it was about $27 per chisel including fairly costly overseas shipping. They are superb for that - cheers to the trade workers at AI making them.


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## Ttrees (4 Apr 2017)

A bit disappointing that you would have to get down to a square edge on a premium chisel, but if I wanted them
it would not deter me .
The thing that matters to me is if the back of the bevel, or the ground profile is square, and it does indeed, look to be.
I've often heard that the very tip of many new chisels can be cheese anyway.
Is this the case with this premium iron too?


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## G S Haydon (4 Apr 2017)

I would of kept the AI instead of paying nearly twice as much for LN A2 steel. The grind, while not perfect is not an issue to be worried about.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Apr 2017)

Ttrees":2odxv9im said:


> A bit disappointing that you would have to get down to a square edge on a premium chisel, but if I wanted them
> it would not deter me .
> The thing that matters to me is if the back of the bevel, or the ground profile is square, and it does indeed, look to be.
> I've often heard that the very tip of many new chisels can be cheese anyway.
> Is this the case with this premium iron too?


The first 1-2mm on my Ai chisels, didn't seem to keep an edge much different to my cheaper plastic handled chisels. Then it got to the good stuff and the rest is history. Fantastic chisels in terms of taking and holding an edge. I also give mine quite a beating and have only had one chisel handle split- I bashed it a little to hard with a brass mallet.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## sunnybob (4 Apr 2017)

I got very angry when I first started this hobby, and am still annoyed, that a tool sold for cutting wood needs to be sharpened or modified before it can be used for such. I find it amazing that so many of you accept this.

If a manufacturer cant supply a tool fit for purpose, then its a dam poor show as far as I'm concerned.

Would you buy a new car that needed an engine tune up before you could drive it away?


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## Petey83 (4 Apr 2017)

Ttrees":1vur38gu said:


> A bit disappointing that you would have to get down to a square edge on a premium chisel, but if I wanted them
> it would not deter me .
> The thing that matters to me is if the back of the bevel, or the ground profile is square, and it does indeed, look to be.
> I've often heard that the very tip of many new chisels can be cheese anyway.
> Is this the case with this premium iron too?



The one image i have posted just shows the tip but a couple of them are also out of square right up the bevel.

As I have said I expected to do some prep work to them but not to have to re-grind them out the box.


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

Petey83":26q6vhq5 said:


> Ttrees":26q6vhq5 said:
> 
> 
> > A bit disappointing that you would have to get down to a square edge on a premium chisel, but if I wanted them
> ...



That's fair. You wouldn't have needed to regrind them to use them, though. Aside from out of square bevels being unsightly, they don't actually affect function that much. You could use the chisel as it was delivered and gradually work it back to square.


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

sunnybob":3buz61p5 said:


> I got very angry when I first started this hobby, and am still annoyed, that a tool sold for cutting wood needs to be sharpened or modified before it can be used for such. I find it amazing that so many of you accept this.
> 
> If a manufacturer cant supply a tool fit for purpose, then its a dam poor show as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Would you buy a new car that needed an engine tune up before you could drive it away?



Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it. 

At any rate, these are not consumer goods like a radio, etc, and I certainly wouldn't want to pay someone at the factory to polish the back of a chisel and then hone it - we all like our chisels prepared differently, and most of us don't like to pay for that. I certainly don't. In the world of straight razors, we get razors that have been honed by someone at the factory (dovo for example). The honing job is less than optimal, but we have to pay someone there to do it. I'd rather they didn't, it's more work to clean up their job than it would be to start fresh, but they *do* assume that a lot of their buyers won't be able to hone a razor. I'd hate to be in that position, though - starting to shave with a straight razor and then having to use one that pulls at hair and doesn't cut a clean path. 

The tradition of these tools goes back far enough to points where chisels were sold from makers without handles. The buyer was looking for the part of the chisel they couldn't make, and they did the rest of the fitting out themselves. 

I'll bet that if AI found the need for users to buy prepared chisels, they could probably manage to do that for another 10 pounds per. I'd certainly do that. 

I'd like to pat my own shoulders, as a couple of people I've shipped planes to have remarked that they've never before gotten a tool that they could take out of the box and use (I prepare the iron, hone it, set up the cap iron properly so that people can see what an appropriate set is to reduce tearout and ship the planes with the wedge in them ready to cut). The difference is that I don't expect anyone buying a wooden plane from me (for the cost of the materials that it takes for me to make it, of course - that way I don't have to listen to anyone complain about the price) to be able to figure out how to diagnose clogging or fit problems, and I actually *use* the planes enough to confirm they work well before shipping them. They are visibly used. Can you imagine the rubbish storm I'd get from some buyers if I actually made those tools for a profit and they showed up with minor marks of use from testing them?

3 years or so ago, a now professional planemaker and i compared notes when we were stabbing out how to make a good double iron plane. He asked if I thought I'd move on to starting to sell planes (like for more than the cost of materials) and I said "no, I'd blow my stack at buyers who think everyone should have the same return policy as amazon". I doubt he can use his planes before shipping them to make sure they work well, and so at least early on, he relaxed some of the areas in the plane (the wear, etc) to make sure that they'd function well in spite of less than optimal users. 

I can't imagine what it's like for toolmakers like AI to supply something as good as their chisels are, for so little money - if the dealer gets $27, I'd be surprised if AI gets $20 or much north of that - and then be berated because someone didn't flatten backs and prepare edges. To appreciate how good the chisels are for the price, one only needs to actually try to make one as good. LN spends the money of the buyer doing lots of stuff that nobody but a newbie would want done, but that's their market - people who haven't used tools much, and in many cases, won't ever use them much or even at all. Most long term users, I'd think, would prefer the AI chisels and have no issues with setup - and be glad they didn't pay twice or three times as much for the same thing with smaller grinding marks and a square flat bevel.


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## PalmRoyale (4 Apr 2017)

Oh my, that's out of square by a very large amount. I don't blame you for sending it back. After all, grinding it square on a bench grinder is not something anyone can just do. No siree, it takes decades of training. Only the most accomplished woodworkers can manage this feat. First you have to put a square line on the back with a square and a magic marker. Than you have to turn on the bench grinder, put the chisel on the blade support and slowly but surely move it forward until you touch the stone. And that's just the beginning of the whole process! I've tried to do it many times but even now, after 20 years of working as a shipwright, I still can't manage it! /s I wish someone would teach me how to do it.


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## lurker (4 Apr 2017)

PalmRoyale":1xt7j74e said:


> Oh my, that's out of square by a very large amount. I don't blame you for sending it back. After all, grinding it square on a bench grinder is not something anyone can just do. No siree, it takes decades of training. Only the most accomplished woodworkers can manage this feat. First you have to put a square line on the back with a square and a magic marker. Than you have to turn on the bench grinder, put the chisel on the blade support and slowly but surely move it forward until you touch the stone. And that's just the beginning of the whole process! I've tried to do it many times but even now, after 20 years of working as a shipwright, I still can't manage it! /s I wish someone would teach me how to do it.



Yes but, if you read what the OP wrote......... He says he is not confident with the grind wheel and then it's almost inevitable he would blue the end. Or maybe you were perfect from day one?

If I had shelled out money for new tools I d expect them to be square , as someone has already said its basic manufacturing

Having said all that I have never bought a new chisel


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## Petey83 (4 Apr 2017)

lurker":1hf8ghy1 said:


> PalmRoyale":1hf8ghy1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my, that's out of square by a very large amount. I don't blame you for sending it back. After all, grinding it square on a bench grinder is not something anyone can just do. No siree, it takes decades of training. Only the most accomplished woodworkers can manage this feat. First you have to put a square line on the back with a square and a magic marker. Than you have to turn on the bench grinder, put the chisel on the blade support and slowly but surely move it forward until you touch the stone. And that's just the beginning of the whole process! I've tried to do it many times but even now, after 20 years of working as a shipwright, I still can't manage it! /s I wish someone would teach me how to do it.
> ...



I am intending to practice grinding on the cheapo set of irwin marples i bought years ago - As i have pushed to improve my hand tool use I realised mastering bench grinding was a key skill over the long term plus it will give me more confidence to buy rough tools at boot sales.... I am just not ready to do it on £133 worth of new chisels (hammer)


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## PalmRoyale (4 Apr 2017)

lurker":y2n5asey said:


> Or maybe you were perfect from day one?


Actually, I was.


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## sunnybob (4 Apr 2017)

DW wrote... "
Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it."

Youve just proved my point, not disproved.

A chisel (saw /plane/ insert any bladed tool here) is a tool sold for cutting wood.
A car is sold for driving.

Yes a car needs maintenance, and yes a chisel needs maintenance. But maintenance by definition is how to KEEP a tool in the condition its sold to you.

Yes, you can customise your particular chisel, exactly as you can customise your car, but at least the car was fit for purpose upon purchase.


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## PalmRoyale (4 Apr 2017)

sunnybob":3l0hp4tz said:


> Yes, you can customise your particular chisel, exactly as you can customise your car, but at least the car was fit for purpose upon purchase.


Are you claiming a chisel with a bevel that's 1 or 2 degrees out of square isn't fit for purpose? If so, you should just stop using hand tools.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Apr 2017)

There's no exact science to regrinding a chisel. It's certainly not something you should feel hesitant about doing. Keeping it cool so it doesn't overheat the metal, should definitely be on the top of the list. Having the cutting edge 100% square isn't as important.
If I were you, I'd save buying the expensive chisels until sharpening/grinding the other cheapos become second nature. It's nice to have decent quality tools, but pointless if you dont use them.
A sharp cheapo chisel will out perform an expensive blunt chisel any day of the week !!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Apr 2017)

sunnybob":26lm4a3s said:


> DW wrote... "
> Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it."
> 
> Youve just proved my point, not disproved.
> ...



They never sell you a car with a full tank of fuel, though, do they? Couple of cup-fulls of vapour if you're lucky - unless you pay Rolls-Royce prices.


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## Petey83 (4 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":1v78qpmz said:


> There's no exact science to regrinding a chisel. It's certainly not something you should feel hesitant about doing. Keeping it cool so it doesn't overheat the metal, should definitely be on the top of the list. Having the cutting edge 100% square isn't as important.
> If I were you, I'd save buying the expensive chisels until sharpening/grinding the other cheapos become second nature. It's nice to have decent quality tools, but pointless if you dont use them.
> A sharp cheapo chisel will out perform an expensive blunt chisel any day of the week !!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



I am confident sharpening on my diamond stones / water stones but grinding is something i know i will have to do at some point once the bevel is past being able to be effectively honed


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Apr 2017)

Petey83":wbtm5osc said:


> ColeyS1":wbtm5osc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're not happy with a power grinder (OK - fair enough) you could square that up on the coarse side of a double-sided oilstone in a few minutes. I've never used one, but I suspect a coarse diamond stone would be even quicker.


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

sunnybob":13ubaw2l said:


> DW wrote... "
> Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it."
> 
> Youve just proved my point, not disproved.
> ...



I would bet that a lot of chisels used for construction are used without anything done to them - grind marks and all. 

Regardless of how you want to word fight about what maintenance is, woodworking tools and cars are not the same, and the market is not the same. Nor is the history of their offering. Unless you buy a tool from a one-off blacksmith (even then, you might get something really out of geometry, but sharpened on a buff or something), you will need to do initial preparation. 

I guarantee that for 99.9% of woodworking, the purchaser could've ignored flattening the back of the chisel and honed the bevel a minor amount, removed the wire edge (be it with a strop or a finer stone) and shaved hair. And then gainfully used the chisel just fine out of square. 

In terms of use after initial setup, someone not using a grinder will be someone who is sorry when they start working a large cross section of A2 steel at 61 hardness. Coarse sandpaper or a carborundum stone is about all that will do it quickly, and the latter is something that will vex beginners because they don't stay flat that easily and they're not easy to flatten. 

I had the same experience as mentioned above with a dry grinder. There were so many horror stories about them that I was overly cautious and never burned an edge until I sharpened a high speed steel iron and burned the edge on purpose to see what would happen (in that case, nothing - some HSS can get orange hot at the grind point and be just fine in terms of hardness once it cools). Light touch, freshly dressed wheel and coarse grit - it'll be easy. Dip each pass if necessary, I don't dip at all and haven't for years. I cool a chisel by pulling it across my palm.

I feel some pain for the makers of these tools, but the market they're selling to is what it is. It's no longer mostly professional users like it may have been 40 years ago.


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":1x3kz9ak said:


> They never sell you a car with a full tank of fuel, though, do they? Couple of cup-fulls of vapour if you're lucky - unless you pay Rolls-Royce prices.



I thought about that, but didn't want to push the argument further!!

Sometimes there is plastic on parts that you have to remove, too.


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## Lons (4 Apr 2017)

D_W":20br1s3v said:


> Cheshirechappie":20br1s3v said:
> 
> 
> > They never sell you a car with a full tank of fuel, though, do they? Couple of cup-fulls of vapour if you're lucky - unless you pay Rolls-Royce prices.
> ...



Yep and a large percentage of new cars are not fit for purpose "straight out of the box", just need to look at the huge amount of warranty work that goes through the dealerships. My Audi now 9 months old has been in several times albeit for minor "adjustments", was in yesterday in fact to update software to fully enable mirrors to fold and other functions intended to be available on purchase.

Just don't get me started about Microsoft products not being fit to use. :lol: 

I've just ordered a new touring caravan, no gas bottles included, not fit for purpose? :wink: 

As far as the chisels are concerned, I see the Op viewpoint but I personally would have kept them, certainly the carving chisels I own are decent steel.


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## D_W (4 Apr 2017)

Lons":16h531xu said:


> Yep and a large percentage of new cars are not fit for purpose "straight out of the box", just need to look at the huge amount of warranty work that goes through the dealerships. My Audi now 9 months old has been in several times albeit for minor "adjustments", was in yesterday in fact to update software to fully enable mirrors to fold and other functions intended to be available on purchase.
> 
> Just don't get me started about Microsoft products not being fit to use. :lol:
> 
> ...



never had an audi, but had two volkswagens, and can commiserate on those. One of them had an audi powertrain in it - other than the actual metallic parts of the engine, I think everything around the entire motor was junk. People in america don't like cars that require a lot of work, thus honda and toyota cars are all over the place here. When I asked the dealer why volkswagens had plug wires and breather hoses and sensors and window motors, and on and on that couldn't last more than a couple of years, he shrugged. When I said it seemed unreasonable to me to have to replace those things when other cars don't require that level of work, he said "people shouldn't let money get in the way of taking care of their cars" (!!!)

Audi and volkswagen have lost a lot of market share here, but more volkswagen than audi. 

I'd have traded some initial work on those cars if I could've avoided the very long list of problems each had starting not long after they were new.


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## iNewbie (4 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":trads1nu said:


> Petey83":trads1nu said:
> 
> 
> > ColeyS1":trads1nu said:
> ...



He probably could. But its a new tool and he shouldn't have too. He has bought what people regard as a _quality_ tool and in this day and age you'd think _they_ could get that right from the factory if they're grinding them, themselves!!!!! Especially these days in the land of t'web you'll get threads like these started cuz a basic grind seems beyond you...

Personally if I were he I'd have contacted Iles of my disappointment and had them pick-up fix, and return the item than buy the LN's - but he aint me.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Apr 2017)

I'm dreading going in the workshop tomorrow to see how many faulty out of square Ai chisels I have to throw out :lol:


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## Sawyer (4 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":nbnrfza6 said:


> Why do they need to be square ? Makes no difference to how well they'll cut !
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


 
If anything, they will cut even better, because of the slicing action. 8)


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## Lons (4 Apr 2017)

D_W":pt8mo0nv said:


> Audi and volkswagen have lost a lot of market share here, but more volkswagen than audi.
> 
> I'd have traded some initial work on those cars if I could've avoided the very long list of problems each had starting not long after they were new.



I think we've strayed off topic OW :lol: 
Don't get me wrong, I really like my Audi which is a highly specced A6 Avant quatro and the problems weren't major, just little niggles however my point was that in general cars are rarely fault free and neither are many other products.

Getting back to the chisels, I bet not a single one of mine is exactly square though I don't take a try square to them to check. That would be down to my sharpening skills or lack of but doesn't stop them slicing through wood effortlessly so I won't be changing anytime soon.

Bob


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## Ttrees (4 Apr 2017)

I would like to see a piccy of the AI chisels looking head on at the tip of the edge.
I'd bet the grinding profiles are quite symmetrical.
This is what the OP's picture suggested to me.
If I was to be super critical of a chisel I would look for these few things mainly....
The symmetry of the grind in the long bevels each side of the chisel,
The symmetry of the lands on dovetailing ones, and the flatness of the backs, and the quality of the edge.
The rest does not bother me like a out of square ground cutting edge TBH


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## undergroundhunter (5 Apr 2017)

My AI's were not perfectly square when I bought them but after a few sharpenings they are as square as I can get them freehand, but does that really matter I don't think it does. Over all they are a good quality product for a reasonable price and to me the steel is what I'm paying for not the edge grind.

Matt


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## Paddy Roxburgh (5 Apr 2017)

AI offer lifetime regrinds o all their chisels, which seems a bit weird, I can't imagine sending a chisel away to be ground, but nevertheless had the OP sent them to AI I'm pretty sure they would have reground them square. No matter how much you pay for something there is always a chance that your product may be faulty (not that I see this as really being faulty). I recently bought a festool CMS table and the legs were excessively wobbly, the table is very expensive for what it is and I was well miffed. When I rang them they immediately sent me some replacement legs which fixed the problem. As with the cars discussed above, there can always be a problem with anything you buy, the mark of a good company is that they will deal with it quickly and graciously.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

iNewbie":1thabp59 said:


> He probably could. But its a new tool and he shouldn't have too. He has bought what people regard as a _quality_ tool and in this day and age you'd think _they_ could get that right from the factory if they're grinding them, themselves!!!!! Especially these days in the land of t'web you'll get threads like these started cuz a basic grind seems beyond you...
> 
> Personally if I were he I'd have contacted Iles of my disappointment and had them pick-up fix, and return the item than buy the LN's - but he aint me.



I don't agree. For one thing, I don't really regard 1 1/2 degrees as much out of square on a chisel end, and it's the sort of thing that will correct itself in a couple of honings anyway. I'm willing to bet that most people's smaller chisels are 'out of square' by that or more - but still work perfectly adequately!

There are things to buy a good chisel for; balance in the hand, quality of steel, fineness of lands on a bevel-edged chisel and so on. Some you can assess by looking at or holding a chisel in the shop, some you can't really judge until you've used a chisel for some time. Rejecting a chisel because of something any half-competent woodworker will adjust for themselves almost without thinking about it seems rather harsh on a manufacturer who has done all the hard bits a woodworker, even a very good one, can't do - forging to shape, heat treating, grinding in fine lands, minutely hollowing the flat side.

Just a note for those indignant at the slight out-of-squareness of this example; NEVER buy a vintage chisel. The chances of finding anything that is even remotely as near to a good working end as that shown in the OP's photo are very remote!


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

I posted this out of disappointment in what i received - In no review of these that i have read (and i did a lot research) did i read anything about them needing anything more than the usual back polish and hone, if i had I would of been more prepared for what I got. If I could be bothered to unpack them all again and take more pictures I would show that on 2 of the chisels the ground bevel appears to be out of square also and the overall grind looks pretty ruff on some of them with black marks being visable. If i was buying these second hand from a boot sale then i would have accepted it and developed the skill to re-grind them (which i am doing anyway). These cost £133 which is not cheap so its fair to expect a certain level of finish surely.... as mentioned even the guys at classic hand tools said they did not look right and gave me several options on how to proceed... the reason I chose not to send them back to AI to be re-ground was mainly due to the lack of solid turn around time.

Everyone is entitled to their views on this of course but for me as someone who is starting to try and further develop my hand tool skills the issue I found with them put me off trusting them - as a comparison my other hobby is air rifle target shooting and now i am competent at that I am happy to buy less than perfect rifles and fettle them to suit but when i first started out I would have just been questioning if issues were down to me or the rifle....


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## Corneel (5 Apr 2017)

You bought chisels that are advertised as being "individually hand ground by our team of highly experienced grinders who work without the aid of jigs or fixtures". (Quote from the workshop heaven website).

Now you get your chisels and they certainly look like handwork, and you complain that they don't look like machine work? Sounds illogical.


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

Corneel":1hhtu6ym said:


> You bought chisels that are advertised as being "individually hand ground by our team of highly experienced grinders who work without the aid of jigs or fixtures". (Quote from the workshop heaven website).
> 
> Now you get your chisels and they certainly look like handwork, and you complain that they don't look like machine work? Sounds illogical.


Firstly can you please point out where i have complained that they don't look like machine work..... don't remember ever using those words... I have said they were not to the same standard as the Narex chisels I had and I appreciate these will be machine ground but looking at the set I had in front of me the term "expertly ground" did not seem ring true - and this was agreed by the retailer from the set of photos I sent them. 

maybe I should use another analogy or two like others have done - I bought a bespoke kitchen that was "hand painted" from Makintosh kitchens, the finish is immaculate and did not need re painting.... I own several pairs of nice Crockett & Jones shoes which are all hand made in Northampton which are immaculately finished out the box - any polishing I did to them was personnel preference. The point I make is the hand finish I was looking at seemed rough rather than refined and that did not seem right to me - if you look at the lovely pictures on workshop heaven (the set in question is out of stock) they look nothing like what I had in front of me.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Apr 2017)

It's disappointing when something is not quite the way one expected, especially if the item is special and you have been looking forward to receiving it.

It comes down to expectations. It would not bother me to correct a bevel that is slightly out of square. I don't expect that a new plane blade is honed and ready-to-go out-of-the-box. I expect to sharpen it before use. My brand new chisels and plane blades will receive a hollow grind before honing. A slightly skewed bevel is not important - as long as the construction of the chisel is as promised - sidewalls are even and the same angle, lands are as expected, and the handle is well made and square. Those are the important initial factors. After this it is important that the blade hones easily and holds an edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

Just had a quick look at my chisels.





All the ones to the left side of the rope, are out of square by atleast 1mm, so obviously need throwing :lol: 





Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Corneel (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":2kkqn4fj said:


> Corneel":2kkqn4fj said:
> 
> 
> > You bought chisels that are advertised as being "individually hand ground by our team of highly experienced grinders who work without the aid of jigs or fixtures". (Quote from the workshop heaven website).
> ...



Well, you sure did complain otherwise the thread didn't exist. And it was indeed my interpretation that you complained about them not looking machine made. In my opinion, handmade looks better with these little imperfections. Your chisels were really quite cheap for handmade items, and there is a lot of grinding work on them, which looks perfectly done from your picture. The front bevel a little out of whack is something to be expected, and doesn't harm the chisel at all. Maybe the youngest intern was allowed to hone his skills on the front bevel of your chisel? Quite unimportant as you are expected to hone them back a mm or so anyway.


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":qqnu93uj said:


> Corneel":qqnu93uj said:
> 
> 
> > You bought chisels that are advertised as being "individually hand ground by our team of highly experienced grinders who work without the aid of jigs or fixtures". (Quote from the workshop heaven website).
> ...




How much do those shoes cost?


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

They seem to average about £400 (say about $500) a pair.

https://www.crockettandjones.com/collec ... collection

Let's just say they make a good quality chisel for £25 look a real bargain!


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

Tool manufacturer's hearts must sink when they see threads like this on the forums, because often it's the thread title that does the damage. Then the first post indignantly says, "I'm only a newbie woodworker, but in my opinion these tools are rubbish and I want my money back". No amount of posts from others more experienced saying, "That's not really a problem, and besides, you haven't tried them properly" undoes the harm.

Just for the record, I've had several AI chisels for a couple of years, I couldn't wish for better as bench chisels for furniture work. Especially for the price.


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## lurker (5 Apr 2017)

I can't believe the flak Petey has had on this thread!
What's happened to the "nice forum" this week?

My personal opinion is he is an silly person for buying new chisels but then so are all the rest of you suckered in by the boutique suppliers.
But you buy something (anything) that's marketed as top drawer and you should reasonably expect it to arrive in a decent state. It speaks volumes about these "artisans" attitude if they can't be bothered to finish them square.

With the exception of my turning tools, I've never paid as much as a fiver for a chisel and I may have over a 100


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## Corneel (5 Apr 2017)

Maybe because Petey doesn't want to see the error of his ways :mrgreen: 

The damage to Ashley Iles is quite real for no good reason (those chisels are fine). Petey only receives some hurt feelings.


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## swagman (5 Apr 2017)

It would seem that AI Chisels have another issue that buyers need to be aware of; http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/a ... _bench.htm



> Note: While we believe that at this price point, there is no finer bench chisel made today, there is one minor recurrent issue with these chisels. The ferules on the handles will invariably become loose during dry times of the year. Because Buginga is not a compressible wood, and the ferules are not peined to hold them in place, they will fall off. Be prepared that when this happens, and it is when, not if, you will need to peen or glue the ferules to keep them on.


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

That's like saying that it's a huge issue that japanese dais shrink when they come to the united states, or that the rings on japanese chisels can become loose if they're sold to someone in a dry area.

They (the AI chisels) have wood handles - if the ferrule comes loose, you either glue it or dent it with a punch. 

As someone who has made a few tools, and a few primitive chisels, I'm still stunned that they will make them for what is effectively about $20 each - their proceeds. They are dandy - the best I've seen for someone who is actually going to do work. Less than the price of a lot of more crude chisels. 

Of all of the different chisels I've bought, and I have a bad habit of buying chisels I don't need, they are the set that I would recommend to someone getting into the hobby.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

swagman":4mlcdlqy said:


> It would seem that AI Chisels have another issue that buyers need to be aware of; http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/a ... _bench.htm
> 
> 
> 
> > Note: While we believe that at this price point, there is no finer bench chisel made today, there is one minor recurrent issue with these chisels. The ferules on the handles will invariably become loose during dry times of the year. Because Buginga is not a compressible wood, and the ferules are not peined to hold them in place, they will fall off. Be prepared that when this happens, and it is when, not if, you will need to peen or glue the ferules to keep them on.


 I haven't had any come lose yet !  Perhaps mine are from a dodgy batch that don't come lose in the summer.....and work just fine being slightly out of square :lol: 

Coley 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## John15 (5 Apr 2017)

I bought a 1/4" and a 3/8" Ashley Isles chisel last year from Workshop Heaven for some dovetail work I was doing. I've just checked them and both are just a tad out of square (probably due to my sharpening!) but they both cut and handle beautifully and I thoroughly recommend them to anyone thinking of making a purchase.

John


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

lurker":1x6mcitl said:


> It speaks volumes about these "artisans" attitude if they can't be bothered to finish them square.



I'd love to see someone try to make those chisels better than AI makes them for the $20 or so that they're probably getting. 

Used tools are nice to get, but in relative terms, they were more expensive when they were new than the AI chisels are now - perhaps even without handles - the HSB catalog makes it look like a set of firmers would've been about a day's pay. And they weren't paying the factory workers benefits in those days.

I've got a couple of chisels that would cost $500 if I were to try to buy them (Kiyotada - shimamura), and they would've been $200+ each new, and I've got chisels that were a dollar (HF - and some old ones in good makes that I was lucky to find for a dollar). I don't have any that are better in terms of fitness of use per dollar of price than the AIs. 

The shape that I get most of my used ones, I'd hate to subject someone who is afraid of grinding a bevel square to those. I think they're a short fiddle to prepare, but someone who hasn't prepared a chisel would think they're never to be used again (especially people who read the blog experts like Chris Schwarz, who literally tell people that LN chisels are economy chisels when you consider all things - blows my mind - they aren't even an optimal steel for chisels and the company tells its buyers that they don't recommend grinding!).


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":1f7t82zp said:


> They seem to average about £400 (say about $500) a pair.
> 
> https://www.crockettandjones.com/collec ... collection
> 
> Let's just say they make a good quality chisel for £25 look a real bargain!



I tracked them down. They're about $600-$650 for someone who pays in dollars. They make allen edmonds look pretty cheap (well, some of the allen edmonds shoes can get north of that if they're horween).

I'd say that someone who buys $600 shoes and then is concerned about grinding a bevel square on a $25 chisel - though it could be used perfectly well as it is - is probably someone who should not be a woodworker. A perfect Lie Nielsen customer, maybe (I do have some LN goods, but they have gone to catering to the wood show customers - the ones who will spend a day at an event, and buy some tools and follow their advice to the T "buy these stones, don't dry grind, use your #8 as a smoother" and then never use the tools).


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## lurker (5 Apr 2017)

Aw! come on guys!
How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
This just smacks of envy!

Where is there a "rule" that filthy rich Petey :mrgreen: is not allowed to be a woodworker?


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## Corneel (5 Apr 2017)

Probably! I allready deplore that I mixed into this discussion.

Whatever Petey, I hope you'll be happy with the LN chisels.


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## lurker (5 Apr 2017)

Corneel":17ei453r said:


> I hope you'll be happy with the LN chisels.



I imagine 4 pages of bile has put the mockers on that too :roll:


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

lurker":3abgyb1v said:


> Aw! come on guys!
> How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
> This just smacks of envy!
> 
> Where is there a "rule" that filthy rich Petey :mrgreen: is not allowed to be a woodworker?



Well, I made the shoe snide, but I'm wearing Allen Edmonds shoes, so I can't say much other than if you wear the well-made shoes *and* you can grind the bevel on your chisels and use them with good effect, then great. 

We're allowed to have nice shoes. When we cross over into the territory of being unreasonably demanding and lacking analysis, then maybe we are better of taking their expensive shoes to lessons at the local tennis club where the staff are used to dealing with that kind of behavior. (or going to a LN event where we can learn to spend 10 minutes sharpening a chisel or 20 grinding one by hand, and then learn how we can spend time each month trying to keep our tools pretty).

The folks at AI who are making something_ awfully_ good for a reasonable price don't really need the trouble.


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## pcb1962 (5 Apr 2017)

D_W":kx10xpo4 said:


> I'd say that someone who buys $600 shoes and then is concerned about grinding a bevel square on a $25 chisel - though it could be used perfectly well as it is - is probably someone who should not be a woodworker.


This is getting far too personal


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## iNewbie (5 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":18hgqyui said:


> iNewbie":18hgqyui said:
> 
> 
> > He probably could. But its a new tool and he shouldn't have too. He has bought what people regard as a _quality_ tool and in this day and age you'd think _they_ could get that right from the factory if they're grinding them, themselves!!!!! Especially these days in the land of t'web you'll get threads like these started cuz a basic grind seems beyond you...
> ...



You don't have to agree. Your assertion of what others should be looking for for is all well and good. For him its a square end... Doesn't matter to me, but it matters to him and he's entitled to his opinion as its his money being spent. 

Yeah, any half-compettent woodworker should be able to do it. Shame his don't appear to have arrived like it when the manufacturer has the equipment to do it 'emselves! :mrgreen:


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

lurker":2645fy67 said:


> Aw! come on guys!
> How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
> This just smacks of envy!


More his buying and selling history does ! Seems to buy stuff, use once or twice, then sell on. - No harm doing that whatsoever. Just seems like he was looking for any reason to ditch the Ai and splash out on some lie Nielsens. No doubt these will probably be in the for sale section in a few months once he realises blue spruce chisels might be better [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH AND COLD SWEAT]
Buying the most expensive tool, isn't the answer to improving woodworking. The key is to get as much use out of the tools you currently have as you can. An expensive chisel isn't the solution to not being able to grind.
He'd be better of getting a decent grinder and sharpening often, instead of spending £100's and being too afraid to use them ! 
I don't know how I'm gonna dispose of my faulty out of square chisels. My take them to the tip and see if they'll have them  
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

pcb1962":15jg4082 said:


> D_W":15jg4082 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say that someone who buys $600 shoes and then is concerned about grinding a bevel square on a $25 chisel - though it could be used perfectly well as it is - is probably someone who should not be a woodworker.
> ...



I'm reminded of something that Charlie Stanford said to me years ago. Something golf related came up. I don't know if I'd bought new clubs or something, but Charlie said that he figured I'd buy ten sets of clubs and quit golf. That wasn't accurate, and it sure didn't make a dent - we're grown men and women here. 

Besides, if I weren't American (where the courteous thing to do for the shoe trade is buy Allen Edmonds), maybe I'd have the same shoes.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

lurker":26gt79mw said:


> Aw! come on guys!
> How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
> This just smacks of envy!
> 
> Where is there a "rule" that filthy rich Petey :mrgreen: is not allowed to be a woodworker?



Just for the record, I own several pairs of Grensons, which were probably in the same sort of price bracket when I bought them years ago, so there's no envy on my part.

It was Petey who brought up the subject of shoes, perhaps suggesting that if you pay a lot you expect a lot. We were just pointing out that relative to some makes, AI's chisels don't cost that much. We were also trying to point out that the business end of a chisel is something a woodworker is expected to adjust to their own needs, and to sharpen when needed, including regrinding if necessary. 

The original post had a rather critical tone about something most experienced woodworkers don't regard as any sort of problem, but had nothing good to say about the chisels to balance the criticism; perhaps some people felt that the makers were due some credit for the things they do get right. That's all.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

iNewbie":z2yiirxo said:


> Cheshirechappie":z2yiirxo said:
> 
> 
> > iNewbie":z2yiirxo said:
> ...



Problem is, he's using a public forum to denigrate a manufacturer over something that isn't really a serious fault. That's something that deserves a corrective post, I think - so I weighed in.


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## shed9 (5 Apr 2017)

Not sure I understand the attitude to the OP on this one. He is perfectly entitled to expect product to be as described. Fair enough if the vendor advises the customer to expect slight differences in squareness but they don't. I appreciate there is possibly more to this than his comments today but taking it at face value, it is not warranted.

On that basis, I also don't see this as damaging to Ashley Iles either. Their customer base is a distributed mix of seasoned professionals, occasional hobbyists and everything in between. Not everyone who takes delivery of an out-of-square product is going to take it on the chin as an acceptable aspect of AI's place in the market comparative to the 'true' cost of production. AI have set their price, not the OP and it is their responsibility to compete with other vendors in terms of price and quality.
AI needs to be upfront about the potential of situations like this as clearly it's not just the OP's tools affected. 

AI can learn from this and be a better manufacturer and supplier by using the comments from this thread. It certainly hasn't put me off as a potential customer, the only difference is I might speak to AI or a distributor prior to ordering which is no bad thing.


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

Still stunned by the idea that a manufacturer would have to advertise something as a possible "defect" when it can easily be removed by a user - who will have to work the very same part of the chisel as a matter of routine sharpening.

There is a duty of some courtesy on customers' part that has been lost as the level of aptitude of the customer has dropped, and as the current nonsense of "no questions asked returns" has created. The duty of the customer is to make a critical decision about whether or not they got their money's worth, not whether or not they got perfection at every price level.

I still feel sorry for the vendor and the manufacturer in this case. They've both done a good job.


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## shed9 (5 Apr 2017)

D_W":9u2na6zj said:


> Still stunned by the idea that a manufacturer would have to advertise something as a possible "defect" when it can easily be removed by a user - who will have to work the very same part of the chisel as a matter of routine sharpening.



Not a defect but a reality, so threads like this don't turn into the word defect being banded around in the first place.

As I said, AI has a mix of customers and not everyone appreciates the economies of hand made tools. Not the best situation but it is real none the less and they need to adapt to that aspect or risk losing those customers which again is real as proven by the OP.


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## John15 (5 Apr 2017)

I've never spent more than £50 on a pair of shoes.

John


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## MrTeroo (5 Apr 2017)

Lons":1oybl3gb said:


> D_W":1oybl3gb said:
> 
> 
> > Audi and volkswagen have lost a lot of market share here, but more volkswagen than audi.
> ...




Not all cars, I haven't had the slightest problem with my new Bentley Continental GT Speed Convertible (hammer)


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## iNewbie (5 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":2qj4ndy7 said:


> Problem is, he's using a public forum to denigrate a manufacturer over something that isn't really a serious fault. That's something that deserves a corrective post, I think - so I weighed in.[/color][/b]



Serious enough for the retailer to take them back and not tell the buyer to suck-it-up...


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

shed9":llzlrdqm said:


> D_W":llzlrdqm said:
> 
> 
> > Still stunned by the idea that a manufacturer would have to advertise something as a possible "defect" when it can easily be removed by a user - who will have to work the very same part of the chisel as a matter of routine sharpening.
> ...



Everyone will lose customers with unreasonable expectations. I have a friend who bought 4 lie nielsen planes. He couldn't figure out how to sharpen them, and when I first started, he had a marginally sharpened block plane. He's the person who got me into planes - sent me along with David C.'s sharpening video a dozen or so years ago, I ordered a plane from LN and watched the video and sharpened it. 

Then went back to him and showed him how to sharpen his planes using the information that he for some reason wasn't able to glean from the David C. video. A strange thing because that video has excruciating detail in it.

He then did both sides of the double iron set in the LN video, setting the bevel on the LN blade, which needed to be done after he had mangled it in his initial failed attempts. he did the same to the cap iron - 25 degrees, which caused the cap iron edge to get smashed up the first time he used it in hardwood (it's unhardened, took on nasty dents). 

He sent the cap iron back to LN, they told him it should've been set to a steeper bevel, and he promptly stopped buying any more LN products. His two issues? One, he didn't like that there was no instruction on setting up the cap iron, and two, he was mad that he had to pay for the sharpening video in the first place. 

You just can't do enough for some customers when you do something appropriate for a given price point. Even with LN, some people just aren't happy, and nobody does more to cater to customers than LN and LV. You can find peppered comments here and there from folks who weren't happy with their LV tools, and LV does just about everything except drive to their front door to correct problems.

I'd imagine that with a little public complaining, AI might focus more on squaring the bevels - it's learning for them just how incapable some of their customers are, but that's just reality when the customer base shifts to more people who do more magazine reading than woodworking. LN has been dealing with that crowd for some time - they cater to it. when the dust settles in 50 years, I'll bet there will be no other make where the average tool has been used less than an LN bench plane or chisel. There are gobs of years-old sets for sale used with no sign of use.

There was an article a while back where Leonard Lee said that customers call all the time talking about this or that being out a thou or two, even though they have no way to measure it. I don't recall, but it may have been introducing their expectation to start lapping the backs of everything they sell, which is an absolute beginner's delight. We won't find those chisels for $27 each, though. I'll gladly correct a bevel. Leonard basically said that it's easier just to give people what they want, even if (paraphrasing) they don't really know enough to know what they should get.


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## shed9 (5 Apr 2017)

D_W":pqmoze5v said:


> Everyone will lose customers with unreasonable expectations. I have a friend who bought 4 lie nielsen planes. He couldn't figure out how to sharpen them, and when I first started, he had a marginally sharpened block plane. He's the person who got me into planes - sent me along with David C.'s sharpening video a dozen or so years ago, I ordered a plane from LN and watched the video and sharpened it. ..........................
> 
> .....................There was an article a while back where Leonard Lee said that customers call all the time talking about this or that being out a thou or two, even though they have no way to measure it. I don't recall, but it may have been introducing their expectation to start lapping the backs of everything they sell, which is an absolute beginner's delight. We won't find those chisels for $27 each, though. I'll gladly correct a bevel. Leonard basically said that it's easier just to give people what they want, even if (paraphrasing) they don't really know enough to know what they should get.



I hear what you are saying D_W and agree with it, my point I suppose is that AI can deal with this aspect in a positive manner and retain some of those customers who may be unrealistic in what is essentially a usable affordable hand made tool. Some people expect a square edge delivered, they just need to point out on their site that this may not always be the case due to the hand grinding and that this will rectify itself after several sharpening processes. In essence it may not be square because a machine didn't do it.

British manufacturing really can't afford to be picky with customer base at this juncture especially with EU and US trade up for negotiation in the coming years.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

iNewbie":7ex88alm said:


> Cheshirechappie":7ex88alm said:
> 
> 
> > Problem is, he's using a public forum to denigrate a manufacturer over something that isn't really a serious fault. That's something that deserves a corrective post, I think - so I weighed in.[/color][/b]
> ...



.....which reflects great credit on Classic Hand Tools and their approach to customer complaints. As a bonus, their client has now spent an extra £80 with them, and will no doubt consider using their services again. (Disclaimer - I've used Classic Hand Tools several times, with very quick service and never had need to complain.) The customer exercised his right to return goods bought by mail order, and the vendor acted quite positively.

However, that doesn't alter the fact that the customer then left a rather negative post about the chisels on this public forum, for something that many of consider to be trivial, and within the woodworker's normal scope of activities to adjust to their taste. That's excessively harsh on Ashley Iles.


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## MotamJoinery (5 Apr 2017)

I recently purchased a set of AI chisels, I haven’t checked if they are square. I did notice that the width is slightly off on each chisel.

e.g. the 3mm is 2.7mm wide . Majority seem to be 0.2 - 0.5mm off the stated sizes. Would be interested to see what peoples view is on this, is it reasonable to accept the size differences for hand made chisels?


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## AndyT (5 Apr 2017)

MotamJoinery":1dypdrzm said:


> I recently purchased a set of AI chisels, I haven’t checked if they are square. I did notice that the width is slightly off on each chisel.
> 
> e.g. the 3mm is 2.7mm wide . Majority seem to be 0.2 - 0.5mm off the stated sizes. Would be interested to see what peoples view is on this, is it reasonable to accept the size differences for hand made chisels?



My view is that it's entirely reasonable. Except for mortice chisels, where you work to the actual width of the chisel, I can't think of an application where the exact width matters.


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## lurker (5 Apr 2017)

John15":385164ps said:


> I've never spent more than £50 on a pair of shoes.
> 
> John



You must be a damn good woodworker then according to some folks here!


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

shed9":3s5wj8pm said:


> British manufacturing really can't afford to be picky with customer base at this juncture especially with EU and US trade up for negotiation in the coming years.



I hear you. As it is in regard to the AI stuff, though, the retailers on this side of the ocean just can't keep it in stock. If they have trouble moving some of the stock in the UK, they just need to put it on a boat and send it over here. 

The retail price here is actually more _without any VAT_ than it is there with VAT. Without VAT, the difference is greater. I paid effectively $144 for a set of 6 (did have to pay the equivalent of about $26 to ship them from the UK, or something like that, but shipping here would've been half of that, anyway). The two retailers carrying them here ask $190 and $207 for the same set. The retailer who asks $207 for them is constantly out of stock. Point being that they're moving them fast over here despite a much higher price.

I've gotten sets from continental europe in the past - stubai and hirsch, and while both of those makers seem to do fine with chrome vanadium-ish steel (i like the stubai quite a lot, actually), they are not as geometrically wonderful as the AIs - the hirsch aren't even close.


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

MotamJoinery":1d1bghuq said:


> I recently purchased a set of AI chisels, I haven’t checked if they are square. I did notice that the width is slightly off on each chisel.
> 
> e.g. the 3mm is 2.7mm wide . Majority seem to be 0.2 - 0.5mm off the stated sizes. Would be interested to see what peoples view is on this, is it reasonable to accept the size differences for hand made chisels?



For hand ground, that's fine. I didn't even think to measure mine, and probably never would. 

Japanese chisels often vary a little bit, too, even very expensive ones. 

I don't know if the same term applies over there as here, but here some people like to do what they refer to as slaving, which is matching chisels and plow plane irons, etc. It might be a problem for that, but those folks must be working with new plow planes, as the old irons aren't that consistent, either.


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## cowfoot (5 Apr 2017)

MrTeroo":3737z24l said:


> Not all cars, I haven't had the slightest problem with my new Bentley Continental GT Speed Convertible (hammer)



Rear view mirror was out a couple of degrees on mine, sent it straight back...


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## iNewbie (5 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":1pkrm398 said:


> iNewbie":1pkrm398 said:
> 
> 
> > Cheshirechappie":1pkrm398 said:
> ...



I've used Classic Hand Tools. They're very good. Whether he's spent another £80 is irrelevant. They feel he had a justifiable case to return those goods. Adjusting to a woodworkers normal scope obviously isn't in their sales! 

Its your opinion his words are harsh, you certainly aren't speaking for me and I doubt countless others. I don't want to state the obvious but its a public forum (within the boundaries of the owners consent) and people will say things other many may not agree with. Me, I'd agree to disagree and move on - as I will be, now.


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

It's a chuckle that there is a mix of both sides of this, which is better than someone just getting piled on by anyone. 

Sort of like an amish barn dance, too - two sides on each end of the room and never shall they meet in the middle. Of course, that's a fake statement, the amish don't allow dancing.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

iNewbie":tepwut64 said:


> I've used Classic Hand Tools. They're very good. Whether he's spent another £80 is irrelevant. They feel he had a justifiable case to return those goods. Adjusting to a woodworkers normal scope obviously isn't in their sales!
> 
> Its your opinion his words are harsh, you certainly aren't speaking for me and I doubt countless others. I don't want to state the obvious but its a public forum (within the boundaries of the owners consent) and people will say things other many may not agree with. Me, I'd agree to disagree and move on - as I will be, now.



The customer exercised his right to return goods bought by mail order. The seller acted correctly - and indeed, went above and beyond. We've no idea what advice the seller may or may not have offered the customer, and it's none of our business anyway.

However, the customer then left a negative post on a public forum about a certain manufacturer's product without - as far as I can tell - first contacting them for advice or giving them any opportunity to do anything about the situation. Thus, this thread will come up in the future when someone seeks information about AI chisels, painting them in a negative light, without AI having had the chance to do anything about it. That's a bit out of order, in my view, so I'm standing up for AI. I use some of their chisels, and have absolutely no problem with them.


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## lurcher (5 Apr 2017)

wake up and get in the shop and sort it man some people on here are so busy moaning i think they must be archair woodworkers some people should not have tools use your own skill to sharpen them without a damn jig learn learn that hat we did a apprentices so you got to do it or you will never learn to do anything so you paid for em enjoy em its only steel .
donnt forget though when using your claw hammer use the cheeks on the chisel .


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":18geid6n said:


> iNewbie":18geid6n said:
> 
> 
> > I've used Classic Hand Tools. They're very good. Whether he's spent another £80 is irrelevant. They feel he had a justifiable case to return those goods. Adjusting to a woodworkers normal scope obviously isn't in their sales!
> ...



I was not going to comment again on this thread but given you sir have pretty much consistently put words in my moth and totally missed the point of what I have tried to say and subsequently explain I am going to correct you

To correct your main gripe - I have not once said AI make a rubbish product or anything along those lines, what i have said is i was disappointed with what I received based on what I was expecting to get. My expectations were generated from internet research as thats the only place I have to research stuff.

In regards to your somewhat mis guides and simplistic take on what tried to demonstrate with the shoes example - I clearly was not trying to do a like for like comparison of a £600 shoe to a £25 chisel. What I was trying to point out is both brands sit in the same sort of level in their respective markets and both make a hand made product. If it helps I can give you a closer example - 4 years ago I bought a decent set of kitchen knives, they are hand forged in Japan from laminated white paper steel and cost about £100 - £150 per knife. Now before you get all excited I am again not drawing a direct pound for pound comparison what I am doing is given an example of another hand made product but one that this time sits near the bottom end of their respective market. Now these knives are all hand ground and honed on Japanese water stones and came to me with a highly polished hair popping edge. Now being white paper steel they are not without issue - the developed a patina quite quickly BUT given i was advised of this before buying I new what to expect and was happy to accept it.

Anyway enough is enugh - this is the internet, you are all strangers and its a lovely evening so I am sure i can find something better to do with my evening.


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## G S Haydon (5 Apr 2017)

"it's learning for them just how incapable some of their customers are, but that's just reality when the customer base shifts to more people who do more magazine reading than woodworking"

Indeed! Read somewhere there were some width variations too!

To put it bluntly, which happens pretty quick to edge tools, if people are stuck on these issues then getting the most out of hand tools will elude them very quickly. If anyone is buying hand tools with calipers and engineer's tools to check things they don't even understand then good luck to them. You'll never meet everyone's expectations, however AI exceed mine by some margin. There again I've made my living making things from wood for 20 years, so what would I know.

What's interesting, that even when experienced woodworkers, both amateur and pro say broadly "don't worry, you're barking up the wrong tree", there is still not an acknowledgement that you didn't know what you were complaining about. 

Watch out for the LN's, you'll find the handles are likely to fall off. Not sure they mention that when they sell them, make sure you report it to LN when you do, you'll be asked to apply hairspray to them. You'll also find you find it difficult to grind shallow angles for paring due to them being A2 steel. Make sure you report it to LN, they'll tell you not to hone below 35deg.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83, why do they need to be 100% square please ? Please ? Ive never come across the need for this accuracy before, even if it is easy to achieve. Is it something you've read somewhere ?
Thanks

Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

A 20 pound chisel and a 600 pound shoe pair are not remotely close to the same place in their respective markets. that's the point. 

Might be comparable to a chisel six times as expensive, but to get a chisel of that cost, you have to go japanese - or possibly some one-off type maker like blue spruce. From a standpoint of anything other than the quality of the turning, I have no idea why blue spruce chisels are that expensive - they just look like bar stock steel cut and stabbed into a handle without a bolster, so that's a bad comparison. Stick with the well regarded japanese makers who do production work - like Ouchi. 

You pay a lot for the finish work in ouchi chisels that you won't have to pay for with AI chisels. They cost at least four times as much.


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":3v478usn said:


> Petey83, why do they need to be 100% square please ? Please ? Ive never come across the need for this accuracy before, even if it is easy to achieve. Is it something you've read somewhere ?
> Thanks
> 
> Coley
> ...



apparently they don't but i had been told they should be.

perhaps I should sell all my tools and give up woodworking and trying to learn and leave it to the arrogant elitist's


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

D_W":3c3p349q said:


> A 20 pound chisel and a 600 pound shoe pair are not remotely close to the same place in their respective markets. that's the point.
> 
> Might be comparable to a chisel six times as expensive, but to get a chisel of that cost, you have to go japanese - or possibly some one-off type maker like blue spruce. From a standpoint of anything other than the quality of the turning, I have no idea why blue spruce chisels are that expensive - they just look like bar stock steel cut and stabbed into a handle without a bolster, so that's a bad comparison. Stick with the well regarded japanese makers who do production work - like Ouchi.
> 
> You pay a lot for the finish work in ouchi chisels that you won't have to pay for with AI chisels. They cost at least four times as much.



again you are utterly missing the point - you are focusing on monetary value as opposed to trying to grasp each products respective markets and their place in it.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":32ohsogy said:


> ColeyS1":32ohsogy said:
> 
> 
> > Petey83, why do they need to be 100% square please ? Please ? Ive never come across the need for this accuracy before, even if it is easy to achieve. Is it something you've read somewhere ?
> ...


No, you should start using them instead of just reading about how it should be. No amount of reading will make up for hands on experience. You're keen, you're passionate about woodworking, don't get bogged down in reading endless reviews, just get out and start making things !
I've been guilty of this myself. I've read and read and read, even created imaginery problems that don't exist, instead of just getting on with it. You'll only damage a chisel by hitting it with a hammer and splitting the handle, or by overheating the end. Dipping it in water frequently will prevent this and obviously using a mallet. Sure it'd be nice if the grind looked perfect and the honing looked square, but I'm willing to guess 90% of the time it won't effect it's use. Just keep it sharp ! If that means freehand honing it for 10 seconds every 20 minutes, than so be it. Don't put off sharpening because you haven't got the time, or the necessary jigs to achieve a 100% square hone.
In a few years you may realise how unimportant having them arrive 100% square was. 
Buy a 25mm one to use and abuse, grind it, grind the heck out of it, treat it like a cheap chisel that needs working hard- then you'll appreciate how good a chisel it is, how well it holds an edge, how comfortable it is to use and how much you wanted to beat the heck out of it, but how it just keeps going without missing a beat. 
Love my Ai chisels, I'm proud to own and use them on an almost daily basis !
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":5yvlzz1r said:


> D_W":5yvlzz1r said:
> 
> 
> > A 20 pound chisel and a 600 pound shoe pair are not remotely close to the same place in their respective markets. that's the point.
> ...



No, I'm not. AI chisels are not in that segment of the market. That's where we disagree. I'm not sure that LN chisels even are - I think they are not.

AI chisels are in the segment of the market where you'd find overseas factory made shoes in the 100 pound range. Being mainstream items, shoes just got overseas faster - they have no boutique novelty. If AI were in the range of what you're talking about, or something like AE Cordovan, they would be very carefully finished by hand such that there would be no mill marks on them. They are a utilitarian set of chisels that has a grind aspect that we like because it is almost non-existent, but they are not lying in a category where people expect cosmetic perfection like you might on a chisel that's made by a one-off boutique maker. 

Shoes are a terrible comparison, anyway, as nobody is ever expected to do any setup on shoes to wear them, with the possible exception of lacing them. Not even on shoes sold at the discounters here for $20.


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## shed9 (5 Apr 2017)

I blame the parents.....


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## Lons (5 Apr 2017)

MrTeroo":1zd9t5se said:


> Not all cars, I haven't had the slightest problem with my new Bentley Continental GT Speed Convertible (hammer)



Footballers cars and they seem to have plenty of problems with them. :roll: Don't know if you have one or it's a wind up, I'd have an Aston Martin before that any day but it happens that a mate who's loaded bought one 2 years ago ( not the convertable) ) and ditched it after 6 months 'cos it was in the garage more than at home, Swapped it for an Audi R8.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":36h9qaqs said:


> Cheshirechappie":36h9qaqs said:
> 
> 
> > iNewbie":36h9qaqs said:
> ...



The title of this thread - which you started - is "Ashley Iles Chisels - So Disappointed". That's the damage done to AI's reputation, right there. Reading the first post reveals that the 'disappointment' is something utterly trivial.

On price comparison, Asley Iles Bevel-Edged chisels compare closely with Marples splitproof and Stanley Sweetheart;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss ... 7XLDT99N0A

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss ... F9SOIZMYFP

Neither of those brands are poor chisels - far from it - but they are not in the same bracket as bespoke shoes, bespoke chisels or fine Japanese knives. Ashley Iles make a hand-made chisel that competes with them on price, but for cabinet bench work, knocks them into a cocked hat on quality.


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## Lons (5 Apr 2017)

No-one is going to get anywhere with this thread so it's utterly pointless apart from entertainment value. Any damage done to AI is done though I doubt they'll lose any sleep.
It seems that there was no problem returning the items for refund so maybe AI should be complimented for acting as they should.

I had a great attitude to any of my customers who had unreasonable expectations and just told them to go elsewhere. :lol: 

Bob


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

So you post two links that show two sets of chisels that are round 50% cheaper than the AI set and thats your version of competition........ being 50% more expensive than the next brand is not really being competitive is it if you take it in its purist form. 

Also iv'e not mentioned bespoke shoes or chisels - bespoke means something individually designed and hand made to a customers wishes, everything I buy is off the shelf. In terms of the knives - they are not fine Japanese knives at all - they are very workman like actually but they just have a good level of fit and finish.

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/brands/ ... /yuki#yuki (highly recommend the company that import these by the way)

The knives are hand forged from a more expensive steel using a more complicated lamination process in a country with a comparable economy and standard of living and are then transported halfway around the world and can still be sold for £150 with the retailer making a profit.... clearly not a "fine Japanese Knife" just an extremely well made product...

i am now being really pedantic but I am just trying to highlight you are reading my words but not really understanding what I am saying. I am sorry you think I have some how damaged AI's standing in the world but I think you are over reacting, Clifton took a bruising years ago but are still there and I quite fancy one of their planes one day.... Veritas and Lie Nielsen have taken bad reviews before now and still do just fine.... Iv'e seen a number of threads (some on this very forum) abut how its wrong to buy products made in China that are copies of other products yet Quangseng still seem to sell - I even own a couple of their planes which i rather like......


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## AJB Temple (5 Apr 2017)

As a dispassionate observer

This was a present for Pete and he said he felt disappointed. He is entitled to his feelings and no doubt the giver is disappointed as well. 
If the chisels are hand made they should take enough pride to grind them square. I grind my chisels square recuse that is how I like them. Pete is entitled to feel the same. 
Just because we can always grind things perfectly well on this forum, has no effect on whether we find a delivery disappointing or whether we should be expected to sort out a manufacturing of QC error. 
Whilst chisels work fine if not square, the fact that they are not is indicative of poor quality control. 
There is minimal chance that this thread has done any damage to AI. And if it has, they need to learn a quality control message. 
Classic Hand Tools acted with complete integrity very promptly. That is my experience of them as well: they are excellent. 
We should encourage members to post their honest experiences and not belittle them when they do IMO.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (5 Apr 2017)

Well if it's any consolation to those worried about the negative effect of this thread on Ashley Isles, I would just add that this thread has really made me want some of their chisels, I have a gouge by them and its fantastic. I already have too many chisels and they have too live in a harsh environment at the dock and I have to make tool purchases based on what will make me money (the chisels I have work just fine) so I probably won't get any yet but when I retire (still 10-15 years away) I want a set of their carving gouges and a couple of Clifton planes to make violins with.
Paddy


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## deema (5 Apr 2017)

There are a number of really good points that have been raised.

There are a number of people for whom a truly square edge is really beneficial and will enhance their initial purchase experience. These are the people who use some form of jig to sharpen their chisels. An out of square chisel will require them to spend a lot longer initially getting the blade square than could be the case. I suspect that this applies to a large number of people and a market segment that should be seriously considered.

The chisel will not perform any worse or better with a slight chamfer, indeed there is an argument that is will shear the wood and cut slightly better. A marketing opportunity to extol these virtues would certainly benefit AI along with the focus on truly hand made. 

Thinking about the manufacturing process, time is money. A simply jig would I'm certain would both speed up the grinding process reducing cost, increasing profit whilst maintaining the 'hand made' allure would ensure that the end of the chisel was square, and that the grind angle was correct as 'specified' in their material. 

Lastly the thread will have benefited I'm sure AI as it has been read and contributed to, there is very little bad publicity, other than no publicity. The fact that a customer is disappointed is something that has got the AI name a lot of attention. We will each draw our own conclusions on what is right or wrong with what has been highlighted. As a manufacturer, listening a responding to market trends and expectations is what keeps the business alive.


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## iNewbie (5 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":3k4jf1oi said:


> iNewbie":3k4jf1oi said:
> 
> 
> > I've used Classic Hand Tools. They're very good. Whether he's spent another £80 is irrelevant. They feel he had a justifiable case to return those goods. Adjusting to a woodworkers normal scope obviously isn't in their sales!
> ...



err, we do have some idea. The seller offered him several options... He exercised his own choice in the matter. 

"_These cost £133 which is not cheap so its fair to expect a certain level of finish surely.... as mentioned even the guys at classic hand tools said they did not look right and gave me several options on how to proceed... the reason I chose not to send them back to AI to be re-ground was mainly due to the lack of solid turn around time._"

Its none of our business (to you) yet you keep on about how he should have conducted himself on his purchase. 

Whether you have had a happy experience with AI doesn't diminish _his _ disappointment. His experience hasn't been yours. Its not the end of the world and as far as damage done to AI (its like he's eaten a baby or summat) I doubt its done any at all. Why? Because theres far more people who have had a better experience with AI. i'd stop panicking if I were you. Get some tin foil on your walls and ceiling and check the windows for Black Helicopters flying above. Any minute now... :roll:


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

If you were going to compare a knife to those chisels, it would be a 30 pound forged knife made out of solid steel. 

I don't know how lucky you are buying your knives, there's a chance that they're not hand forged at all as quite a lot of the knives made in japan are rikizai (prelaminated material sold to smiths). 

There are some makers who absolutely do everything by hand, and a lot who don't. Someone living in Tokyo warned me to check with him if I wanted a hand forged knife, but being the kind of guy who's totally happy with a chisel where I only need to regrind the bevel, I'm perfectly happy with rikizai knives that cost half as much as yours. Actually, quite tickled with them. 

The thing I'm at a loss about here is that 600 quid shoes are comparable to 25 quid chisels, but 15-20 quid chisels are not comparable to 25 quid chisels. Those being your comparisons, not mine. Look to the finish level on blue spruce chisels if you want something compared to those. I don't favor the construction of those chisels, but the finish level applied to them is quite good. So much so that I'd say they might well suit someone who would wear 600 quid shoes and maybe not do quite so much woodworking.

The comparison that would be more accurate to AI chisels would be Stubai or Hirsch chisels. I have just prepared a set of stubai chisels, and i don't believe all of them were perfectly square, either. They are nice otherwise, to me, because not only will I grind a bevel if I don't like it, I will actually grind the lands, too. I only wear $300 shoes, though. Sometimes guys at my level still have to make things the way we like them, rather than buying them in perfect shape. Enough joking, though. The stubai chisels work well for a handle gripper because they don't have huge thick cross sections like the construction chisel types (heavy firmers or socket chisels), and if I don't like the lands, I'll make them so that I like them. 

It may horrify some folks, but I've gotten garish $7 chisels and ground the lands to exactly what I wanted, and i'm very happy with them. They need to be sharpened often, but we learn to do that quite quickly after a while.

And one last comment - I mentioned buying three kiyotada chisels earlier. They are quite possibly the finest chisels that have ever been made if you can tolerate japanese chisels, as long as they are from a smith named Shimanura (san for the japanophiles). Two of them, I got used, so I can't comment on their bevels. The third I bought new. It was $220, and I was very lucky to find it for that - the market price for shimamura's stuff is about $600 per chisel from what I hear. The bevel was not perfect on it, the rest of the finish is divine. Someone like me should never have a tool so nice - really, my skill level will never justify anything remotely close, but someone gave me a chance to try the best chisels ever made -two people - and I'm down with that. But the bevel on the new one that I got still needed to be set to what I wanted. And if I recall correctly, I dry ground it - something that would absolutely horrify some. 

My AIs definitely aren't square, either, but I could care less - the rest of the chisel is no less than spectacular for the price. I wouldn't trade them even up for the fat LN construction style chisels I used to have.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

No, Petey, I posted two links that showed chisels priced in the £20 to £30 each bracket, which is directly comparable to the AIs - indeed, more in some instances. The AIs are handmade, the Marples and Stanleys are (I presume) machine made.

With respect, I'm not really sure you're trying to understand what we're trying to tell you. Ashley Iles make very good cabinetmaker's bench chisels for a price comparable with good quality mass-produced chisels. You posted a thread with a title that suggested AIs product was disappointing, but the reason you give is just a trivial one, which any woodworker should be easily able to resolve for themselves. That's rather unfair on Ashley Iles, especially as they haven't (I presume) had any chance to comment, advise or whatever before the thread was posted.

Look, I really didn't want this argument, but I respect Ashley Iles, their products and their ethos. I feel they've been rather unfairly done to by the title of this thread, and I'm just standing up for them. 

May I respectfully suggest that getting some sharpening and using practice under your belt would be a good step in the right direction; then you'd understand our stance a little better.

Good luck with the Lie-Nielsens. I'm sure they're excellent chisels and will give every satisfaction - but get using them!


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## D_W (5 Apr 2017)

I'm in the camp of this whole thing doing little to quell the excitement for AI's chisels, though. 

Really, name something else new in the price range that's better. I'm sure beginners will think that they see a new make chisel that they feel might be better, but I can tell you pretty quickly why it's not unless you're going to be taking your chisels to a construction site and perhaps opening paint cans with them.

If you'd have lived near me, I'd have reground your whole lot square for you in 10 minutes and then probably blathered on just like here about how lucky you are to be able to get a chisel that good for that cheap. If AI didn't make them, we really wouldn't have anything short of looking at LV's much more expensive (but in very nice style for cabinetmakers) chisels. The continental european chisels need their lands ground down to be in the same class with the AIs, and that is a much larger ask than squaring a bevel. Something also not to be done for someone who may think they'll ever resell their chisels, too, as beginners don't want a better tool if it's been modified - it will seem unsafe to purchase to them.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

One thing I don't thinks been mentioned, is the initial pic looks like the chisels been honed, making it look even more out of square ? 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2017)

iNewbie":hd86ep05 said:


> Cheshirechappie":hd86ep05 said:
> 
> 
> > iNewbie":hd86ep05 said:
> ...



...but HIS disappointment is for an utterly trivial reason which as a woodworker he should be able to correct for himself. His denigration of AI publicly on this thread - and his refusal to accept the advice of more experienced woodworkers - is the problem.

It's a great shame this has got out of hand, but I suppose that's life. Or the internet. Or whatever.


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## iNewbie (5 Apr 2017)

Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.


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## Bm101 (5 Apr 2017)

Here's a picture I took on my phone today while painting the front room. You can tell I'm painting the front room because I've been painting it for bleeding ages. I hate painting.But once I start I have to do it properly. No one else can see the errors but I can. But then my cider got all shiny. 
How does this help in the AI eternal chisel debate? It doesn't, not in the least. But it's a reminder we can all see different things in ordinary situations.
Lets move on. 
Personally I think it's because Cider has more moves than James Brown. But that's just My Opinion.
If anybody else has any photos that capture the essence of the hidden soul of cider i'd say i'd be glad to see them. Personally I think you're knocking on a locked door. I reckon I took the best ever cider pic. Just saying.


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## G S Haydon (5 Apr 2017)

Sure not trivial to him, 'cos he don't understand. Others have merely pointed out it was a beginners problem of overthink. Understandable really, he's free to be "so disappointed" and other people are free to point out his review is worthless. As is your assertion of harassing.


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## Bm101 (5 Apr 2017)

(Excellent photos of Stout will be considered).


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## Paddy Roxburgh (5 Apr 2017)

iNewbie":27ymsh2x said:


> Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.



Whilst it is Pete's prerogative to complain about the chisels I don't see CC's response as "harassing". These posts come up high on google searches and future potential AI customers may well read them. Inexperienced wood workers could easily come away thinking that they wouldn't want to buy AI for this reason, especially if no one countered. As it stands what they will hopefully take away from this is that the ends might possibly be slightly out of square, but most woodworkers wouldn't worry about this. 
It's a shame that Pete didn't make a post before this saying they were out of square and what did people on the forum think about this. I'm only up the road from him and if he'd have brought them to me I would have ground them square for free whilst telling him it didn't really matter (probably best off not wearing the £600 shoes at the dock though), or he could have taken them a mile up the road to North London Saws and they would have done it for £2 a chisel with no lecture. 
Paddy


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

Cheshirechappie":2jk52qsz said:


> No, Petey, I posted two links that showed chisels priced in the £20 to £30 each bracket, which is directly comparable to the AIs - indeed, more in some instances. The AIs are handmade, the Marples and Stanleys are (I presume) machine made.
> 
> With respect, I'm not really sure you're trying to understand what we're trying to tell you. Ashley Iles make very good cabinetmaker's bench chisels for a price comparable with good quality mass-produced chisels. You posted a thread with a title that suggested AIs product was disappointing, but the reason you give is just a trivial one, which any woodworker should be easily able to resolve for themselves. That's rather unfair on Ashley Iles, especially as they haven't (I presume) had any chance to comment, advise or whatever before the thread was posted.
> 
> ...



The fact you used Amazon ias your justification is ridiculus as the prices are ll over the place there....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Build ... ie+nielsen

I rest my case on that.....

Now if you Google the the Marples set you highlighted they are on average 50% cheaper than the AI set so comparably not really the same market segment.

I rest my case on that too...

You keep banging on about how I have some how soiled AI's good name.... at no point have i been derogatory about them as a company or their product, I have simply stated I was disappointed with what I received and chose to exchange for a different brand. You deem my reason for disappointment to be trivial but I don't, don't you see how arrogant that is on your part. 

I do actually grasp what you are trying to say and agree I need to learn to grind tools but I don't agree that I should just accept poor QC and learn to fix it myself at my risk. I am actually competent at sharpening because I use a veritas jig, I am not however competent at grinding and was not about to start on a £133 gift!! If you'd like to fund my learning I can give you my paypal details and you can give me the £133 and I'll happily have a crack on the grinder with them. 

For the last time to all those who seem to lack the capacity to grasp the examples I am trying to give - I am not comparing anything on monetary terms, what I am doing is highlighting other companies who make hand made products and put them out at a great level of finish for what is a reasonable price in their specific market segment - not talking about pound shop knives or glued and pleather shoes made in the peoples republic as these are not in the same market segment


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

Paddy Roxburgh":2c6578iu said:


> iNewbie":2c6578iu said:
> 
> 
> > Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.
> ...



North London saws is actually rather close to me as i have moved out of Enfield - never knew they did hand tools but thats beside the point really - why couldn't AI do it???

That aside people really are obsessed by my shoes now 8) For what its worth I actually didn't pay £600 for any of them - sales and factory shop for me.... They have actually saved me money over the years as I am no longer buying 4-5 pairs of poorly made shoes a year from the high street anymore


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

Have you honed the chisel in the pic you posted ?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Paddy Roxburgh (5 Apr 2017)

Hey Chris (BM101) How's this for the hidden soul of cider


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

you know what - can i just ask everyone to drop this thread now please. There is clearly a lot of disagreement here and it's clear I am not going to see eye to eye with some of the people who have commented. Ultimately we all enjoy the same thing just in different ways.


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":2gllh39n said:


> Have you honed the chisel in the pic you posted ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



nope never did a thing to them - not that it matters now


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## Paddy Roxburgh (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":329lv4n6 said:


> North London saws is actually rather close to me as i have moved out of Enfield - never knew they did hand tools but thats beside the point really - why couldn't AI do it???
> 
> That aside people really are obsessed by my shoes now 8) For what its worth I actually didn't pay £600 for any of them - sales and factory shop for me.... They have actually saved me money over the years as I am no longer buying 4-5 pairs of poorly made shoes a year from the high street anymore



Sorry Petey, didn't mean to obsess about the shoes, it's just the dock is a rather hostile environment. I get through rigger boots at an alarming rate. I live right by NLS in Waltham Cross, my work is at Enfield Dock right by Enfield Lock.
Paddy


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":cu82i9ne said:


> ColeyS1":cu82i9ne said:
> 
> 
> > Have you honed the chisel in the pic you posted ?
> ...


So is the black line ( that looks like it's been honed) a shadow ? Or did Ai supply it ground and honed ? I don't recall any of mine being supplied sharpened, that's all.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":3dvikzkr said:


> Petey83":3dvikzkr said:
> 
> 
> > ColeyS1":3dvikzkr said:
> ...



its shadow buddy


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## Petey83 (5 Apr 2017)

Paddy Roxburgh":2gtubttl said:


> Petey83":2gtubttl said:
> 
> 
> > North London saws is actually rather close to me as i have moved out of Enfield - never knew they did hand tools but thats beside the point really - why couldn't AI do it???
> ...



I am Goffs Oak - I may take you up on part of your offer - would be good to have someone show me how to grind as I still need to learn to put heavy camber on plane blades and re-grind chisels at some point.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Apr 2017)

Petey83":2y05n5b1 said:


> ColeyS1":2y05n5b1 said:
> 
> 
> > Petey83":2y05n5b1 said:
> ...



Are you sure ? Is that your final answer :lol: 
Coley 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Paddy Roxburgh (5 Apr 2017)

Feel free to call in, I'm usually there every day except Saturday and Thursday afternoon. I do my tool grinding on a linisher (sorby pro edge). We have a dry grinder as well but the wheel is always got a groove in it from grinding tips from the tig welder.
Paddy


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## D_W (6 Apr 2017)

Petey83":3dc6ojz9 said:


> That aside people really are obsessed by my shoes now 8) For what its worth I actually didn't pay £600 for any of them - sales and factory shop for me.... They have actually saved me money over the years as I am no longer buying 4-5 pairs of poorly made shoes a year from the high street anymore


.

I hear you on the shoes. Same reason I wear Allen Edmonds shoes. My go-to here (Hanover shoes) used to import shoes from italy for several of their brands, but not special shoes, just shoes that would cost about a hundred pounds. they got greedy and started making all of those shoes in China and they were trash. Not only did they only last 6 months if you baby them, but they were falling apart and they never felt quality or comfortable to begin with. 

I wouldn't bat an eye at 133 in chisels, it's money in suspense, but buying shoes that are several hundred dollars is a matter of principle - to pay a company who still does things the right way. In ten years, I have bought 4 pairs of shoes for every day use, and only one of those pairs is worn out. the other three have a lot of life yet, and four pairs of shoes probably becomes a 20 year allotment of monday to friday shoes for me. The shoes feel superb compared to cheap shoes - but superb in that they feel proper, the same way a decent car feels compared to an economy car. 

Once you get grinding down, it will open up a whole world of tools to you. As I mentioned prior, if you go with a wheel, you just need coarse grit, a wheel dresser, and a reasonable touch. Spray a dot of water on the back of a chisel at the edge if you'd like, and when the water starts to dry, spray it again. For every unreasonable horror story about dry grinding, there are 100,000 quietly ground edges that are perfectly fine. And if you blue the tip of a blade, we're talking about grinding off a 16th of an inch or something, or maybe even more practical, just use the chisel anyway and see if it fails. If you just blue a corner or something, chances are, it won't make much of a difference in use.


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## Andy Kev. (6 Apr 2017)

Paddy Roxburgh":1cfbpdie said:


> iNewbie":1cfbpdie said:
> 
> 
> > Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.
> ...


Having read through the thread I wonder if this boils down to a question of innocence vs. experience.

The vast majority of people these days are consumers of mass produced goods. As such they are used to receiving cosmetic perfection while perhaps not being knowledgeable enough to judge functional quality. Some, in fact probably most, of the tools in my local DIY supermarket look quite attractive on the shelves but anybody with a little knowledge can see that one would not want most of them in one's workshop. At best many of them could be regarded as one-off disposables for use in emergency only. Incidentally, this is the sort of junk which gets so heavily berated in _The Anarchist's Toolchest_ by Christopher Schwarz.

Anybody who knows the AI chisels knows that they are of high quality. However, it's clear that their average purchaser is someone who fully expects to have to take a tool home and give it the final touch to make it fully functional. I remember being shocked when I started woodworking about three years ago at the notion that the blade of even a high quality chisel or plane needed sharpening by me in order to get it in working order! As a well-conditioned consumer I was used to things working straight out of the tin, the fact that they were often not expected to work very long after coming out of the tin being something that you just lived with. The AI chisels, suitably tweaked by their owner, will last for many, many years once "out of the tin".

I spoke about this to an experienced woodworker and his view was that if the manufacturers of high quality tools were to remove all grinding marks, create perfect squareness and hone to working sharpness, the price of the tools would go up noticeably. So the price of the (high quality, lest we forget) AI chisels is the price you pay plus 10 minutes of your time bringing them into optimal working order. What would they cost if they arrived in optimal working order? There's clearly a market for tools which are perfect in all aspects and there's the market for the user who is knowledgeable enough and prepared to do the final tweak himself. AI appears to be in this latter segment.

So most people on here, being happy to give the final tweak, find Pete's observations to be questionable and for good reason. On the other hand, his disappointment was real as his (perhaps naive) expectations had not been met.


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## ColeyS1 (6 Apr 2017)

It's a perfect example of how a first time woodworker SHOULDN'T go about buying tools. Petey83's name seemed familiar so I looked back a few of his older posts. You'll notice he originally had some good ol marples chisels, before deciding to have some narex. These were shortly sold on to make way for some Ai chisels. These were then returned by his own choice to fund some lie Nielsens- he's still never ground a chisel before, despite being on his 4th set ! - I'm sorry, but that just seems madness !!!! I wore out two set of marples split proof chisels before deciding to treat myself to the Ai chisels.
I'm afraid it has to be said- you could buy a £500 chisel, but if you've no experience of using it, it's not gonna improve your woodworking one bit !
My advice- go back to basics. Buy cheap & cheerful tools and learn how they work. Instead of buying endless amounts of power tools (not cheap festool) stick with cheaper recognised brands (bosch, makita, dewalt etc) and work through and get past the niggles. The only way this ends...that I can see, is being majorly dissapointed with your hobby after spending 1000's but still not seeing the results you're expecting. It's just not necessary [WINKING FACE] 
Once you get past the need to spend loads on the biggest brands, I reckon you'll start to appreciate your tools a bit more. Instead of being a great tool collector, you'll finally start seeing some wear and tear to what you've already got,maybe even pick up some new skills on the way  

Coley 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## jlawford (6 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":2exo7t1l said:


> It's a perfect example of how a first time woodworker SHOULDN'T go about buying tools. Petey83's name seemed familiar so I looked back a few of his older posts. You'll notice he originally had some good ol marples chisels, before deciding to have some narex. These were shortly sold on to make way for some Ai chisels. These were then returned by his own choice to fund some lie Nielsens- he's still never ground a chisel before, despite being on his 4th set ! - I'm sorry, but that just seems madness !!!! I wore out two set of marples split proof chisels before deciding to treat myself to the Ai chisels.
> I'm afraid it has to be said- you could buy a £500 chisel, but if you've no experience of using it, it's not gonna improve your woodworking one bit !
> My advice- go back to basics. Buy cheap & cheerful tools and learn how they work. Instead of buying endless amounts of power tools (not cheap festool) stick with cheaper recognised brands (bosch, makita, dewalt etc) and work through and get past the niggles. The only way this ends...that I can see, is being majorly dissapointed with your hobby after spending 1000's but still not seeing the results you're expecting. It's just not necessary [WINKING FACE]
> Once you get past the need to spend loads on the biggest brands, I reckon you'll start to appreciate your tools a bit more. Instead of being a great tool collector, you'll finally start seeing some wear and tear to what you've already got,maybe even pick up some new skills on the way
> ...



Great post Coley. If I can make a comparison, I sell pro audio equipment in my day job, and lots of people claim one brand of speakers to be the best, yet there are hundreds of concerts going on every day with two dozen or more different brands, some sound great and some rubbish, irregardless of brand! It's the monkey driving the PA system that makes the sound good. Same thing with woodworking.

One other to add is that it's been useful to me and probably others, to follow one particular path and run with it. In my case I've read most of Paul Sellers' blog and watched most of his videos, and taken the tool a few technique advice on board with my own woodworking which had been about a year now. I watch plenty of other videos from other people, but it's not going to make me change brand of chisels or planes every other day!

Back to the sound system example, the businesses having the most success make their decisions, then run with them and just get on with it! And the flip-floppers who are always changing equipment are spending £'000's...


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## Petey83 (6 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":1iyhldue said:


> It's a perfect example of how a first time woodworker SHOULDN'T go about buying tools. Petey83's name seemed familiar so I looked back a few of his older posts. You'll notice he originally had some good ol marples chisels, before deciding to have some narex. These were shortly sold on to make way for some Ai chisels. These were then returned by his own choice to fund some lie Nielsens- he's still never ground a chisel before, despite being on his 4th set ! - I'm sorry, but that just seems madness !!!! I wore out two set of marples split proof chisels before deciding to treat myself to the Ai chisels.
> I'm afraid it has to be said- you could buy a £500 chisel, but if you've no experience of using it, it's not gonna improve your woodworking one bit !
> My advice- go back to basics. Buy cheap & cheerful tools and learn how they work. Instead of buying endless amounts of power tools (not cheap festool) stick with cheaper recognised brands (bosch, makita, dewalt etc) and work through and get past the niggles. The only way this ends...that I can see, is being majorly dissapointed with your hobby after spending 1000's but still not seeing the results you're expecting. It's just not necessary [WINKING FACE]
> Once you get past the need to spend loads on the biggest brands, I reckon you'll start to appreciate your tools a bit more. Instead of being a great tool collector, you'll finally start seeing some wear and tear to what you've already got,maybe even pick up some new skills on the way
> ...



Every time I try and let this thread go......

To correct you on a few points and assumptions made.

I still own the marples and have used them a lot but mainly on household carpentry work / DIY as opposed to any furniture making. They have been sharpened many times and are now at the point where they need to be re-ground hence why I started looking into and subsequently bought a bench grinder a couple of weeks ago.... well that and the desire to get a heavy canber on my jack plane iron now. 

The Narex chisels have been with me for a couple of years so hardly bought and just sold on a few months later as you've implied. I've not really used them much as aside from not doing a lot of making (more building work as mentioned) i actually don't find they suit my hand when I have tried to do finer work. 

I will freely admit my strategy for tool buying is not great at times and I've certainly lost money on some things but that's the price I pay I guess for not being particylulrly near a really good hand tool shop or having a mentor local to me. At the end of the day the losses and mistakes are my cross to bear. What I've done now is plan ahead and think about the tools I may like in future and had a good look at them on the rare trips I get to the closest Axminster, this way I know what I am buying upfront now even if I can't afford it at the time of looking. 

Everyone keeps going on about how quick and easy it is to grind a chisel square which to me begs the question why don't AI do this in the first place and if they did why is it said that this would cause a massive increase in price. Kinda contradictory really.....

To be very clear once and for all - I have not once said anything deliberately derogatory about AI as a company or their products, all I have done is state my disspintnent at what I received based on what I was expecting from my research on line including this forum. I had actually already tried the LN chisels and really liked them but I bought AI as I liked the idea of buying a British made product. 

I indeed do not know how to grind a tool, this is something I have not needed to do with my mainly power tool work so far but it is something I aim to remedy this year as I do understand it's importance. That being said I am not about to start trying to learn it on a £133 gift. If anyone here would like to buy me an AI chisel to try and re grind then I will happily give you my pay pal details and post some pics of the results. 

I am not disappointed with my hobby at all, to the contrary I am really happy with most of what I have now and even more happy that after 3 years of trying to do this as a hobby whist living in a flat with a tiny back yard I now have a double garage that is being slowly converted into a workshop which has made the idea of me even attempting to build the furniture for out new house even possible. 

One thing that will never change is my penchant for nice things including tools - I own a fair amount of Festool gear which many people see as over priced yet I find it well made and can say 100% it has improved my work


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2017)

I agree that an expensive tool will not instantly elevate skill set and will clearly not gain you retrospective experience however conversely a cheap tool will achieve the exact opposite. 

Good tools will help, cheap tools will hinder. If good tools are in your reach go for it whatever your level or stage in your chosen craft.


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## thetyreman (6 Apr 2017)

I don't agree that cheap tools will hinder, sharpening is a skill that you have to master, fettling a plane is a skill you have to master, and it's not rocket science, it's very easy and very simple, 'cheap' tools does not mean low quality steel, with old second hand tools.


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2017)

thetyreman":10dr91hy said:


> I don't agree that cheap tools will hinder, sharpening is a skill that you have to master, fettling a plane is a skill you have to master, and it's not rocket science, it's very easy and very simple, 'cheap' tools does not mean low quality steel, with old second hand tools.



Cheap tools are hit and miss; quality, production runs and materials are not consistent. You can still achieve sharpening and fettling skills with better tools. I agree cheap tools do not always equate to low quality, but when someone is first starting out why put them in that minefield when more consistent options are available to them?

If people want to use their money to buy the best they can afford, I really don't have a valid argument to persuade them to do otherwise.


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## ColeyS1 (6 Apr 2017)

How about, I've spent £55 on a chisel, it needs grinding but I'm scared I'll wreck it if I do ? Instead i'll carry on using it till its blunt, then not use it at all cause I don't have the experience/confidence to grind it yet. Then it becomes just downright unsafe, wood doesn't cut cleanly, best case scenario he buys some blue spruce ones that remain sharp for 10-15 honings. 


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Petey83 (6 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":3p3zl4dg said:


> How about, I've spent £55 on a chisel, it needs grinding but I'm scared I'll wreck it if I do ? Instead i'll carry on using it till its blunt, then not use it at all cause I don't have the experience/confidence to grind it yet. Then it becomes just downright unsafe, wood doesn't cut cleanly, best case scenario he buys some blue spruce ones that remain sharp for 10-15 honings.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



Ok so in my last post I stated that I have the intent to learn to grind and have actually bought a bench grinder and plan to use the cruddy Irwin marples to learn how to do it. I have previously stated that since I made the decision to learn more hand tool skills I have become more aware of the need to re grind tools. I have never stated that I won't re-grind the LNs when the time comes but that time won't be on the day I buy them like it was with the AIs (if I wanted them square which is something I'm entitled to want). All I have said is I was not prepared to learn to re grind on a brand new £133 gift but have offered you and anyone else the option of buying an AI chisel for me to use to learn on. So far no one has offered to buy me one so I assume it's ok for me to risk my money or just accept getting moaned at when I chose not to but no one else wants to risk their money...


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## Corneel (6 Apr 2017)

Petey83":2t62rrro said:


> Everyone keeps going on about how quick and easy it is to grind a chisel square which to me begs the question why don't AI do this in the first place and if they did why is it said that this would cause a massive increase in price. Kinda contradictory really.....



I don't know how easy it is to grind the edge "exactly" square, because I never do. Close enough is good enough, and I guess that was what the grinder at AI was thinking too. And he had to do it quick, because there isn't much time in a 20 pound chisel.

This is how I go about it. I clean up the stone first with a dressing tool. Then I set the toolrest at 90 degrees to the stone and grind the very front of the edge. Making it super blunt in fact! I happen to have a pretty wide wheel at the left hand so it is easy to make a straight grind. I check of course, either by eye, or if I want it to be exact, I'd take a small machinists square. Then I go over to my coarse wheel on the right, dress the wheel, set the tool rest at the proper bevel angle and start to reestablish the bevel, slowly without too much force and colling the steel from time to time. I won't continue all the way to a sharp edge, the last little bit is done while honing on the bench stone.

This procedure helps to avoid overheating. Making it square is a separate activity from making it sharp(ish) again. When you want to do all the squaring work while grinding the bevel to the desired angle, you will have a much harder time to make and keep it square and you will probably overheat the edge where it is thinnest.

BTW, this is a good way to camber your jackplane iron too. First grind in the profile with the tool pointing at 90 degrees straight into the wheel. Then reestablish the bevel, of course looking where you need to remove more or less steel.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (6 Apr 2017)

Totally agree with Corneel, all profiling work should be done at 90 degrees, as should heavy stock removal to get rid of a bad chip, then the bevel ground at the desired angle until it is close to the edge. This prevents blueing the steel. If you sharpen without a jig, as I do, grinding is only necessary if you have a bad chip or you wish to change the profile (e.g. put a camber on a plane iron). However that's a whole other debate that I don't want to get into.
Paddy


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## D_W (6 Apr 2017)

Petey, what are your options over there for tracking down a CBN wheel? At one point over here, we could get a wheel with a rolled edge for $125, and though I had to think a little bit before buying one, I was losing diameter off of a $50 pink wheel fast enough to know that over time, the CBN wheel will be cheaper. 

I'm not sorry I did. CBN transfers heat at a much higher percentage than alumina. The grind heat with alumina is mostly left in the tool, because the alumina wheels don't absorb it. Since CBN transfers heat, a lot of the heat when grinding with CBN ends up in the massive aluminum or steel base wheel. You could still burn something with CBN if you wanted to intentionally, but it would be pretty difficult. 

That said, even a coarse grit cheap round wheel is fine if it's kept fresh with a cheap diamond dresser. Total cost for the pair should be about 20 pounds. The fine wheels and the loaded wheels are the ones that burn things.


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## iNewbie (6 Apr 2017)

Paddy Roxburgh":2mha89z8 said:


> iNewbie":2mha89z8 said:
> 
> 
> > Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.
> ...



Good Lord - I'm well aware of these posts/threads coming up and the supposed 'nobody will ever buy another tool of theirs' is a knee-jerk reaction. As has been pointed out, most people who buy them would probably do the grind themselves. He doesn't want to. The shop were happy to take them back. End of...

How many times does the OP need to be badgered about what _he_ should do because someone else feels he should do it cuz it'll make_ them_ all warm and fuzzy and their experience didn't match his so he's in the wrong.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (6 Apr 2017)

iNewbie, How you conclude that i am badgering him is beyond me. No where have I said that as a result of this post no one will buy AI's tools. Indeed I think it has been a useful and balanced discussion. This is a woodworking discussion forum, if you post something expect to have it discussed. I have offered Petey the opportunity to come to my dry dock to regrind his plane irons and have given him very useful local knowledge about NLS. I suppose your saying that the only valid response to anything that has disappointed someone is "oh dear, that's terrible, how awful for you, but don't worry if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger".
Petey has posted his disappointment with AI chisels, others have given their opinion, it's a discussion. What exactly have you contributed to the discussion other than said we should not discuss it?


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## Petey83 (6 Apr 2017)

Paddy Roxburgh":1iq6j57d said:


> iNewbie, How you conclude that i am badgering him is beyond me. No where have I said that as a result of this post no one will buy AI's tools. Indeed I think it has been a useful and balanced discussion. This is a woodworking discussion forum, if you post something expect to have it discussed. I have offered Petey the opportunity to come to my dry dock to regrind his plane irons and have given him very useful local knowledge about NLS. I suppose your saying that the only valid response to anything that has disappointed someone is "oh dear, that's terrible, how awful for you, but don't worry if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger".
> Petey has posted his disappointment with AI chisels, others have given their opinion, it's a discussion. What exactly have you contributed to the discussion other than said we should not discuss it?



Paddy I hear what you are saying but I as the original poster will say it's not felt like a balanced conversation most of the time - it's felt like people laying into me for having an opinion that is not aligned with their own and saying I should not be a woodworker as I don't k ow how to grind tools at the length and happen to own a few nice pairs of shoes.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (6 Apr 2017)

Hi Petey, my response to iNewbie was because he directly quoted me as an example of "badgering". If you have felt harassed by me I wholeheartedly apologise. I always try to be polite and constructive in my comments, both here and in my life in general. 
Paddy


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## Petey83 (6 Apr 2017)

Paddy Roxburgh":1y02abt6 said:


> Hi Petey, my response to iNewbie was because he directly quoted me as an example of "badgering". If you have felt harassed by me I wholeheartedly apologise. I always try to be polite and constructive in my comments, both here and in my life in general.
> Paddy



No not by you specifically mate but a few folk seem to have got on their self righteous high horse and it's felt like an attack because I had a different view and skill level compared to them.

If I was that offended I'd have insisted you owe me a pint in the Goffs Oak or Prince of Wales one night


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## Ttrees (6 Apr 2017)

Why not go tho the pound shop if your nervous and buy a £1 chisel to learn on ?
I suggest getting a permanent marker while your at it.
If you colour in the bevel you will be able to see where your grinding.
Might come in handy if your checking very often, and end up with multiple facets .

If you can keep you hand close to the end the tool you have no risk of burning the edge 
If it's too hot to hold, its getting too hot.


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## D_W (6 Apr 2017)

Petey83":xva6s4pc said:


> Paddy Roxburgh":xva6s4pc said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Petey, my response to iNewbie was because he directly quoted me as an example of "badgering". If you have felt harassed by me I wholeheartedly apologise. I always try to be polite and constructive in my comments, both here and in my life in general.
> ...



I don't know if I'm in the crowd. I approve of the shoes, as mentioned. 

It's not so much that you have a different skill set, some of us (like me) really aren't that far along to begin with - but we're far along enough to know which problems are significant. 

So, the real issue is that you asserted that the bevel was a serious problem worthy of return, and then asserted your disappointment - proceeding to assail very nicely made chisels that are made at a tiny fraction of what any of us would settle for if we were to design and sell the same thing. A good starting post would've been at the receipt of them and an open-minded question about whether or not it was a big deal in the first place. Many would've said it's not a problem, some would have. In the end if you'd have said "I don't know what to do, I feel unsure of myself grinding them", a large number would've said "call the retailer and see what they think".

As I mentioned, even my kiyotada chisel that was brand new had a bevel that wasn't perfectly square. 

You will likely be happy with the LN chisels, as I believe they grind almost everything they make on a surface grinder. The plane irons come out laser flat and square because of it. Eventually, you may become dissatisfied very quickly with the LN chisels if you don't find a machine grinding alternative, though. They have a very large cross section of abrasion resistant steel at a hardness higher than most chisels (but similar to the AIs). A chisel a bit softer with a thinner cross section is definitely a better candidate for manual grinding.


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## iNewbie (6 Apr 2017)

Paddy Roxburgh":btb8r2ov said:


> iNewbie, How you conclude that i am badgering him is beyond me. No where have I said that as a result of this post no one will buy AI's tools. Indeed I think it has been a useful and balanced discussion. This is a woodworking discussion forum, if you post something expect to have it discussed. I have offered Petey the opportunity to come to my dry dock to regrind his plane irons and have given him very useful local knowledge about NLS. I suppose your saying that the only valid response to anything that has disappointed someone is "oh dear, that's terrible, how awful for you, but don't worry if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger".
> Petey has posted his disappointment with AI chisels, others have given their opinion, it's a discussion. What exactly have you contributed to the discussion other than said we should not discuss it?



You've assumed my badgering comment is you. Nothing more. Read back, my points were to Cheshire until you piped up. How you conclude my only valid response would be: "_I suppose your saying that the only valid response to anything that has disappointed someone is "oh dear, that's terrible, how awful for you, but don't worry if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger_" ........ when I never posted anything like that,......is beyond me... 

Here's the skinny: The guy didn't ask anyone to square his chisels. the seller could have sorted that. He just raised his disappointment about _his_ AI buying experience. He then said he was buying the LN's. Thats it, in a nutshell.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (6 Apr 2017)

iNewbie, I concluded they were aimed at me because you quoted me and clearly leveled them at me (all be it only when I "pipped up"). I apologise to you sir , I got mixed up, I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum, not Petey's private blog with you as his security. Maybe you should run his blog without the reply button activated, or at least make it clear that dissenting opinions will not be tolerated.
All my posts on this forum (until this one) have been polite and constructive (apart from a slip up in the Brexit debate). I have given away tools and services to other forum members for free and have received similar (thanks Droogs). In this conversation I have been polite and helpful to the OP. Why you feel the need to attack people in a woodwork discussion forum for discussing woodwork is beyond my comprehension. Troll away all you like, I won't be responding, I'd rather stick to positive discussion and try to help those who need my help and get help from those who can help me. You sir, fall into neither category. 
All the best, Paddy


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## iNewbie (6 Apr 2017)

zzzzzzzz


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## MrTeroo (6 Apr 2017)

Time for a padlock icon next to this thread methinks.....


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## D_W (6 Apr 2017)

MrTeroo":2fz9bx0v said:


> Time for a padlock icon next to this thread methinks.....



We didn't finish the shoe heel squareness talk!!!


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## Petey83 (6 Apr 2017)

Please please please lock this thread so I can get on with enjoying my expensive shoes and perfectly square LN chisels. I'm happy so let's end this.


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## D_W (6 Apr 2017)

Petey83":38mx6xym said:


> Please please please lock this thread so I can get on with enjoying my expensive shoes and perfectly square LN chisels. I'm happy so let's end this.



Once it's over, we need to go on a crusade to get the average person to buy decent shoes, take care of them, and avoid paying the same thing over time for imported junk.

Wait, maybe we can do that with tools, too.

I'd mention allen edmonds as another option over there, but by the time they're imported with VAT added to them, they're probably not that much different in cost - at least the US made ones. 

Never understood the desire to lock threads, though. There isn't anything particularly offensive in this one - I thought it was quite an instructive thread, and interesting. 

So, too, might someone else new to the hobby who comes along and searches for chisel squareness.


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## Lons (7 Apr 2017)

> you know what - can i just ask everyone to drop this thread now please. There is clearly a lot of disagreement here and it's clear I am not going to see eye to eye with some of the people who have commented. Ultimately we all enjoy the same thing just in different ways.



This thread has surely run its course. :roll: But you're your worst enemy really as despite your protests such as your quote above you've posted another eight times since that one. (hammer) 

As stated, this is a discussion forum, if you feel battered then don't post! I doubt there is any intent to harass, rather just post our opinions based on experience. BTW you'll never achieve the truly "balanced" thread you want, just doesn't work that way and compared to some, this forum is pretty mild mannered. 

No-one can be critical of you for buying nice tools, it's part of the enjoyment of the hobby for many of us but there is also much pleasure obtained by using other good quality and often s/h tools, I personally enjoy refurbishing them. You have no experience using AI chisels because you sent them back and your reasons are understandable while those of us more experienced know they need minor fettling for the reasons stated. both arguments are valid.

IMO ultra cheap chiwanese tools are not worth the effort, other middle of the range often are but the suggestion you buy one to learn how to sharpen is a good one as you can grind it with impunity until you're proficient.

If you'd been at the wheel for the amount of time you've spent on this thread you might have been a master grinder by now. :wink: 

Is there not a woodworking club anywhere near you? Or like minded enthusiasts you can meet up with? That would really help! Anyway, whatever you do mate, keep at it, you never stop learning

Bob


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## ColeyS1 (7 Apr 2017)

My grinding history might be of use Petey83, it's quite a list !
When I was doing my apprenticeship I started grinding with a normal bench grinder. It literally had a rest,that was wibbly wobbly and out of parallel rest.Quite often I'd overheat the tip of the cutting edge.
Another guy who worked there bought a massive horizontal 2ft wheel, that ran with oil being pumped on the surface. It was an improvement but it was the size of a fridge !!! Clamping anything to it was also a pain in the bum- it was just fiddly !

I think he next added a white stone to a normal bench grinder which allowed it to cut a little cooler- to be honest I didn't notice it improved things that much.

Next i bought a tormek ! Not really suitable for regrinding but it did the job- I use to just prop the tools up and leave it going. I noticed a diamond wheel was available for the tormek- at first it cut really fast, after a while it lost its edge. Cheapo chisels, still relatively fast.Ai chisels It could be anything from 30-40 minutes - no overheating though !!

Next up, creusen slow speed grinder- fkin finally !!!!!! Just amazing compared to all the rest. I fitted a jig that allowed repeatable grinds- so measure how much the chisel was stuck out the jig, then after it got honed alot just remeasure the projection, and you'd remove as little metal as possible, but get a fresh cutting edge. Only issue, was the stone diameter changed after each use, so the amount of projection required also changed.
Finally flicking through the Axminster catalogue, I spotted they made a cbn wheel that would fit the creusen - that was the game changer !!!! It's nearly impossible to overheat an edge now. Through habit I'll dunk the blade in water before starting to grind, by the time I've finished, the majority of the waters still there !
That's when I no longer searched for a better grinding solution. It's amazing !

Coley 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## ColeyS1 (7 Apr 2017)

Forget to mention, it cuts really fast !! Like 2-3 minutes per cutting edge is loads. It keeps such a cool cutting edge, and best of all the diameter doesn't change so it removes hardly anything when I regrind something. 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Apr 2017)

Yes, a CBN with a jig is the way to go - you'll probably the life expectancy of the tool two or three times, you take so little off each time (despite a regular poster here's claim that you take off less freehand :? :lol: ). It takes seconds.


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## Petey83 (7 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":3kf1s3tb said:


> My grinding history might be of use Petey83, it's quite a list !
> When I was doing my apprenticeship I started grinding with a normal bench grinder. It literally had a rest,that was wibbly wobbly and out of parallel rest.Quite often I'd overheat the tip of the cutting edge.
> Another guy who worked there bought a massive horizontal 2ft wheel, that ran with oil being pumped on the surface. It was an improvement but it was the size of a fridge !!! Clamping anything to it was also a pain in the bum- it was just fiddly !
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing. I only have a basic Record 8" grinder but have ordered a 46grit Norton 3x wheel as I understand these run considerably cooler. I have also ordered the Veritas adjustable tool test to replace the junk tool rest that came on the wheel. Plan is to start on the old Irwin Marples in a few weeks time once I've finished putting the raised floor and bording On the walls in the garage.


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## D_W (7 Apr 2017)

Petey83":ri7uo0ut said:


> Thanks for sharing. I only have a basic Record 8" grinder but have ordered a 46grit Norton 3x wheel as I understand these run considerably cooler. I have also ordered the Veritas adjustable tool test to replace the junk tool rest that came on the wheel. Plan is to start on the old Irwin Marples in a few weeks time once I've finished putting the raised floor and bording On the walls in the garage.



That'll be a good start. A softer chisel like you'll be using is easier to learn on, too. The faster something grinds, the less hot it gets. As opposed to something like a Chinese high speed steel iron, which will get too hot to touch in a regular refresh of the bevel if it's been a significant amount of time since the tool last saw a wheel. 

Is the grinder half speed, variable speed, etc?

The pink wheels I used were about the same coolness as 3x. If it glazes, you'll have to get a dresser of some type, but they take very little dressing.


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