# I seem to have damp



## wizer (16 Mar 2008)

Was greeted by this in the workshop this morning:







When I picked up that pieace of wood, it was smiling at me:







There is a damp course there, but it seems to be coming under it.






It's the outer wall with about a 4" gap before the neighbour's garage starts. I suspect there is a lot of debris between there which is holding onto the water. I can't get down there to clear it out.






Is there anything I can do from the inside to prevent/reduce this?


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## Rich (16 Mar 2008)

Is the space between the two walls covered? if not, It's a start, if you still have a problem at least that avenue is eliminated, not much help I know, might be worth checking with next door to see if he has the same problem,
regards,
Rich.


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## Digit (16 Mar 2008)

From your pic it looks as though the damp course is the second mortar line above the floor, is that so?

Roy.


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## brianhabby (16 Mar 2008)

Hi WiZer,

If you can't fix it from the outside (because you can't get at it), you may be able to tank it from the inside.

I once had a workshop (not woodworking) with a wall that butted up against a car park that was about five feet above my floor. Water would literally pour down the walls when the rain was very heavy. I cured the problem by tanking the whole wall.

Basically, you render it with waterproof cement and it stops the damp dead in its tracks. It worked in my workshop and that was in 1990 and as far as I am aware it is still okay today.

You make the render waterproof by putting a special fluid in the mix.

Hope this is of some use.

regards

Brian


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## wizer (16 Mar 2008)

Digit, yep 2nd course.

Covering the gap is unlikely. The neighbour is very elderly, I haven't seen him since we moved in, he has home help and no relatives. His garage is derelict to say the least, we had to run a cable over it in the summer and my Dad nearly fell through it. The irony is that the neighbour's Dad built most of the local houses in the 1930's.

I will have to look into rendering it from the inside. Not a fun job... Anyone know of a specific product?


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## Digit (16 Mar 2008)

I'm afraid that means that your floor is blow the damp proof course. Damp is rising up to the level of the DPC and then flowing out of the bricks, as suggested tanking to one course above the DPC should solve your problem, but you may have to wait until the water stops entering before you can do it. 
It is a DIY job if you have the tools. 

Roy.


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## llangatwgnedd (16 Mar 2008)

Tank the area with Bitumen Paint.

http://www.palacechemicals.co.uk/WEBSTUFF/3012300.pdf

Have heard that Thompson Waterseal is pretty effective as well.


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## Digit (17 Mar 2008)

If the hydraulic pressure is not too high the paint works well and is cheap and easy, how high is the ground outside?

Roy.


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## tenpin (17 Mar 2008)

WiZeR

if you want to do the job properly use this stuff from a company called http://www.sovchem.co.uk/ Soverign Chemicals.....

Heydi K11

Contact this company as they will give you a local sales rep's number and you can order it through him and they will send to you via courier....it's definately not cheap though....about £40 a bag....but one bag done 2 8ft x 4ft sections of wall in 2 coats.

it's a cementousbased product that you mix with SBR ( like a high strength PVA sealer) to make a slurry which you brush on.
This stuff is used to waterproof cellars etc and iv'e recently used it on my own house wherei have had a couple damp walls where there is no damp proof line and the injection we had done some time ago had failed

be mindful though...if your floor does not have a membrane between it and the lower part of the wall, blocking that lower part of the wall below the damp proof line may force the damp into the sub floor...so you may have to paint the edge of the floor around 24" into the workshop also....

Nick


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## wizer (17 Mar 2008)

Digit":k961im0m said:


> If the hydraulic pressure is not too high the paint works well and is cheap and easy, how high is the ground outside?
> 
> Roy.



The ground level should be level with out house. But I'm guessing over the years lots of debris has built up and is retaining water or preventing it from running away.

I will look into the suggested products.


Many thanks


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## Digit (17 Mar 2008)

_be mindful though.._ 

That's why I questioned about the ground height outside Nick, if the hydraulic pressure is high enough to force liquid water into the shop it may be because it can't flow out on 'tother side, in which case lowering the ground outside could also be necessary. 

Roy.


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## beech1948 (17 Mar 2008)

Hi,
I would second Digits remarks.

First step prior to tanking would be to have a good look down the 4" gap between the garages to try to see what the problem is in detail. Assuming its not totally blocked ie 6ft tall and 17ft long then you can clear it out.

Maybe the ground level is just a bit too high, maybe there has been debris fallen in..whatever.

I would try to clear the gap. I know its a pain as its so small but consider that the cheapest solution may be to grind down a hoe to 4" or less and clear from each end as much as possible. Then take a suitable length of cheap softwood 4x2 or 4x3 and lay it flat and using a sledge hammer gently knock it through the gap pushing the debris out. Repeat until ground level is lower than needed.

A bit heath Robinson I know but its always better to remove the cause of damp than to work on second level prevention until you must.

regards
Alan


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## StevieB (17 Mar 2008)

An alternative waterproofer is synthaproof. A bitumen based paint that is used for tanking cellars for the inside.

Steve.


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## Kane (17 Mar 2008)

If it's loose debris (leaves etc) do you think a pressure washer could blast it out? Alternatively if the neighbours garage is falling down offer to pull it down for him to save him cash and solve your problem at the same time.


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## wizer (27 Jun 2009)

*sigh* Why didn't I fix this?

We've just had a torrential downpour and there is a stream of water running right through the middle of my workshop. Its the same wall but a different area. 

We did inspect the gap between the garages last year and decided clearing it out would be near on impossible due to it being 2 storeys high and as long at it is high AND at funny angles.

I did buy some Synthaprufe but was put off by the prep work involved (render wall, then apply synthaprufe, then render again)

Does anyone know if this would be claimable on my buildings insurance ? Will the fact that I'm using it as a workshop affect the claim?


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## Night Train (27 Jun 2009)

Clearing debris outside would be the first thing I would suggest. Solve the source of the problem before treating the symptoms.

If you can get at the gap from both ends then you only have to clear half the length of it from each end. Even if you use a long stick with a gardening trowel on the end to scoop out the debris or, as suggested, a narrow hoe to pull it out.

Anyway, I have my own leaks to deal with. I have been reroofing my house and have only got as far as refelting half of it. The other half is sheeted over. Both the Velux windows are now letting in water around their edges as they don't have their flashing on yet.


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## big soft moose (27 Jun 2009)

Kane":6xx8ktq3 said:


> If it's loose debris (leaves etc) do you think a pressure washer could blast it out? .



I was thinking that as well , or a leafblower / vac - or as someone else said a narrow how with a long handle. or all of the above


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## Tom K (27 Jun 2009)

Highly unlikely to be covered as cause is lack of maintenance.
A set of drain rods might go a long way towards a solution.


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## studders (28 Jun 2009)

Tom K":27ou64xy said:


> A set of drain rods might go a long way towards a solution.


I was gonna say that. Great minds and all that.  
With the fitments available for them you should be able to push/pull any junk out of the cavity.


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## devonwoody (28 Jun 2009)

Dont know your site circumstances but would a high pressure water hose disperse the blockage? They even shift concrete if the angle and pressure is high enough.


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## wizer (28 Jun 2009)

Drain rods sounds like a plan actually. Good thinking. It's right in the middle of a 20ft stretch, so hoes and bits of wood were out. Plus the angle changes as it goes along.

I don't want to use a water jet as I'd like to keep as much water out of the workshop as possible.


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## head clansman (28 Jun 2009)

hi tom 


Before you go off half cocked , check with your neighbour to see if he has the same as you in his garage from your description of how close it is chances are he has the same problem , whist checking with him check to see if there s no old water pipes buried nearby that could have broken (due to the dry weather ) or a possible surface water drain / down pipe possible blocked that may be the problem , it no good treated the damp Area till you sure you know where the source is coming from so you can cut of the supply to the damp area, cut of the supply & nature will dry the rest out . hc


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## Tom K (28 Jun 2009)

H.C the source was a rather heavy rain yesterday evening!


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## wizer (28 Jun 2009)

indeed it was rather a freak incident tbh but I wasn't exaggerating when I said it was like a stream through the workshop. It's gone under places I can't get to including piles of wood that was nice and dry.  I must be due to the debris down there as the place that leaked last year didn't last night. 

Communicating with the owner of next door is hard if not impossible as he's now in a home with no family. I guess when the time comes, the house will just go derelict? If it were 2yrs ago I'd have offered to buy it.... and if I was unscrupulous i'd pull the garage down :twisted: :wink:


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## Night Train (28 Jun 2009)

wizer":32sqb9qq said:


> ...and if I was unscrupulous i'd pull the garage down :twisted: :wink:


Nah, It fell down during the heavy rain yesterday didn't it? :wink: :twisted:


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## Digit (28 Jun 2009)

If the gap's that small wizer is it worth roofing over it perhaps?

Roy.


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## Night Train (28 Jun 2009)

Digit":32x0gef2 said:


> If the gap's that small wizer is it worth roofing over it perhaps?
> 
> Roy.


Or guttering it so that both roofs drain into the same gutter keeping the gap dry.


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## lostintheforest (28 Jun 2009)

I work for a construction company and we had to do something the same as this last year. We could not get down the gap which was to small and long in the end we took some bricks out cleaned all the rubbish away and bricked it back up. This might be the better option as you can make sure all the rubbish is out of the gap. Damp proofing is only hiding the problem which is all the rubbish in the gap.


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## devonwoody (28 Jun 2009)

At the end of the day the soil/water level has still got to have a lower point than the water ingress or it could still come through.

Assuming your plot is not inside a hollow.


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## Digit (28 Jun 2009)

I wanna tell you a story DW. A customer called me out to look at a washing machine he had purchased from me that was dropping the RCD when he turned it on.
And he wasn't happy! All my fault of course.
When I arrived at a rather remote stone cottage the front door was open and a stream of water was flowing down the steps.
I immediately started see expensive problems, till I got into the kitchen. The water wasn't from the washing machine, it was from the hillside behind the house!
It was running in the back door, across the kitchen floor, down the steps into the living room and out the front door.
'Could it be the damp that causing the problem?' I was asked.

Roy.


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## devonwoody (28 Jun 2009)

Digit, I recall travelling through Wales in your locality and seeing a For Sale sign which said "the cheapest house in Wales" (it was £1500 at the time and it was exactly has you describe.


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## MikeG. (28 Jun 2009)

Tom,

Lostintheforest has got the answer, if you can't clear everything from the outside ends. 

If you took out a 3 or 4 bricks every few feet, you should be able to get your arm in with a trowel and scrape it clean. Ideally you should get everything out down below slab level, find a way of preventing any more debris getting in there, and maintain a nice clear air-way to help it dry out after rain.

Mike


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## Digit (28 Jun 2009)

The one I visited John wouldn't have been a bargain at that price! :lol: 

Roy.


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## wizer (28 Jun 2009)

Right. Taking bricks out scares the bejesus out of me! (I never said I was a man). There is an extension above the workshop. It's held up on the outside wall by piers and a concrete lintel (I think they are the right terms). So does that mean I won't have structural issues with taking bricks out ? How do I remove the bricks ? Hammer and Bolster? More importantly, how do I get them back in without making the problem worse??

Should I still proceed with the sythaprufe after clearing out the debris?

I'm quite tempted to pay to have this done as I'm the very definition of slow, this might not get finished before winter.


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## TrimTheKing (29 Jun 2009)

Stick some pictures up Tom, let the dog see the rabbit so to speak. I reckon you could do it with the drain rods idea, just need to Heath Robinson something up


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## big soft moose (30 Jun 2009)

wizer":3m6f7y58 said:


> I'm quite tempted to pay to have this done as I'm the very definition of slow, this might not get finished before winter.





TrimTheKing":3m6f7y58 said:


> I reckon you could do it with the drain rods idea, just need to Heath Robinson something up



forum meeting at toms then - i'll bring the work pressure washer , trim can bring his drain rods , mike can oversee the brick removal - and if all else fails we can send a small child in like they used with victorian chimneys


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## TrimTheKing (30 Jun 2009)

big soft moose":3jxjf9ac said:


> wizer":3jxjf9ac said:
> 
> 
> > I'm quite tempted to pay to have this done as I'm the very definition of slow, this might not get finished before winter.
> ...


Love it! I'll set off now!


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## Digit (30 Jun 2009)

Give me a few years and I'll supply the small child! :lol: 

Roy.


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## wizer (30 Jun 2009)

hehe you're more than welcome guys. Can I pay in wood ?

I cleared a space at the front entrance of the 'gap' tonight and ordered a set of drain rods. I'm not convinced tho, getting a good look down there tonight, there is all sorts of junk down there. Bits of broken corrugated roof, lumps of concrete, bricks rubble, litter, drain pipes.... Gawd knows where's all come from. I think my only hope is that the new owners tear their garage down.

Anyway. As soon as the drain rods arrive I'll start phase one.


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## big soft moose (30 Jun 2009)

Digit":3o19ewhq said:


> Give me a few years and I'll supply the small child! :lol:
> 
> Roy.



youre okay there I think tom already has one


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## big soft moose (30 Jun 2009)

wizer":2nc8vyle said:


> hehe you're more than welcome guys. Can I pay in wood ?
> 
> I cleared a space at the front entrance of the 'gap' tonight and ordered a set of drain rods. I'm not convinced tho, getting a good look down there tonight, there is all sorts of junk down there. Bits of broken corrugated roof, lumps of concrete, bricks rubble, litter, drain pipes.... Gawd knows where's all come from. I think my only hope is that the new owners tear their garage down.
> 
> Anyway. As soon as the drain rods arrive I'll start phase one.




I wonder if you could use a hoe on a long handle to rake out some of the loose rubbish.

and also if next door is totally derelict what about knocking out a few bricks on their side for acces to the tricky bits - would they even notice ? or care ?

Joking aside a few big hairy lads to help might sort the problem ( much rather that than have you hurt yourself working alone), I'd be happy to come over sometime if you need a hand (tho i'd need to liaise with swimbo over when)- no payment required tho if you want shot of some excess wood i'd be happy to take it away with me.


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## TrimTheKing (30 Jun 2009)

wizer":hkdufeq4 said:


> hehe you're more than welcome guys. Can I pay in wood ?
> 
> I cleared a space at the front entrance of the 'gap' tonight and ordered a set of drain rods. I'm not convinced tho, getting a good look down there tonight, there is all sorts of junk down there. Bits of broken corrugated roof, lumps of concrete, bricks rubble, litter, drain pipes.... Gawd knows where's all come from. I think my only hope is that the new owners tear their garage down.
> 
> Anyway. As soon as the drain rods arrive I'll start phase one.


You are better off pulling than pushing mate (as the actress said to the Bishop!). See if the drain rods have something flat and disclike, or some kind of hook/spade/hoe affair to fit on the end, if it does feed them in up in the air then drop down on the offending material and pull.

Will take you a while but it will work in the end.


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## wizer (30 Jun 2009)

Cheers Pete. To be honest there's not a great deal of physical work involved, I'd more like someone who knows what they are doing to tank it. 

Yeh Mark I already have been dreaming up making a claw from a piece of ply and bolting it onto the end of the rods.


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## Night Train (30 Jun 2009)

If I was closer I'd be up for this. :lol: 

Clearing the muck is going to be a trial and error method depending on what is there at each stage. A hoe, a trowel, a pointed stick can all help break it up and lossen it to make scraping it out easier. Small amounts at a time is easier then trying to hurry the job.

I've done this sort of thing a few times though often it has been poo, literally poo, due to blocked or broken drains.


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## devonwoody (30 Jun 2009)

I hope a previous occupier hadnt decided to dump the excess concrete he had over from a job and put down there.


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## wizer (30 Jun 2009)

No, the garage is original to the house which was built by the deceased owner's Father. The majority of the debris is from that garage breaking down gradually. I think the foxes run over it in the night so that's what's accelerating it now.

I tried taking pics earlier but you just can't make anything out as the gap is so slim.


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## MikeG. (1 Jul 2009)

Do what you can with the rods, Tom, and have the brick-removal option up your sleeve in case some object remains irremovable.

Putting them back is easier than you think, and taking them out 2 or 3 at a time will have no bearing on the strength of the wall at a time. Drill out the mortar with a masonry drill (largest you can find), or cut out with an angle grinder. Then hammer and bolster........wear gloves!!!

Don't to any internal waterproofing afterwards. All it does is store up trouble. Much better to clear the debris, get the ground level down below the slab, and allow good airflow all round.

Mike


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## Deejay (1 Jul 2009)

Tom

Get yourself one of these ...

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+To ... 916/p78141

You could bolt something to it like a bit of old plywood to stop most of the debris slipping round the sides as you drag it back.

Worth a try.

Cheers

Dave


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## wizer (1 Jul 2009)

Yeh cheers DeeJay, I've seen that but I think it's going to be a bit small and weedy for what I want. We're talking about bricks being the smallest piece of debris. Something home made should work.


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## Tom K (8 Jul 2009)

Did you not get any problems with yesterdays deluge?


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## wizer (8 Jul 2009)

yeh a bit but not streams as before. Hopefully work on clearing out the side will commence this weekend.


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## wizer (13 Jul 2009)

Right, so we had a go at this at the weekend. I took a pic of the gap but it's doesn't really show much







We started with garden hoes and got out the first couple of metres of debris. The further we went down the harder it got. Until we just couldn't reach any more. The drain rods idea wasn't going to work. We ended up deciding that the way to do it was a pick axe with a rope on each end. You needed that weight to penetrate the sand an muck that the bricks and lumps of concrete were fixed in. We'd ran out of time and Dad had to go.

5mins after he left the niece of the deceased next door neighbour turned up. I had a chat with her, expecting to be told they'd be selling it and it was the new owners problem. Imagine my delight when she said she was going to move in. But not before she'd renovated the whole house, including demolishing their garage! \/ \/ 

She's not sure whether it'll be this year (which probably means it won't) but at least I'll be able to get to the outside. Any tips on how to deal with it when I get access to my brickwork?

I decided to go ahead and use the Synthaprufe on the inside as a belt and braces measure. I was expecting it to be a nightmare to apply but it's actually really easy. The brickwork was brushed down and all the loose mortar removed and then repaired. Then you just slap it on. I have done 4 coats so far and may give it one more. 

Before:






After:






During this week I need to empty out the filing cabinet to the right of this, pile it in this area, so I can complete the wall.


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## TrimTheKing (13 Jul 2009)

That's good news Tom.

Could you not suggest that you demolish it for her and get Dad and mates round for a weekend of demo?

You supply the beer (small cans so you don't do your back in carrying them  ) and they provide the labour.

She gets it for free and you get what you need, when you need it! Bonus!


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## wizer (13 Jul 2009)

tempting Mark but I'd rather not  I'm prety sure she's going to do it so even if it's next summer, I know it's going to get done.


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## TrimTheKing (13 Jul 2009)

You going to paint over that stuff with some whitewash? Not sure it'll look too inviting all black.


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## wizer (13 Jul 2009)

Good question Padawan. I think I'm going to board it.


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## WellsWood (14 Jul 2009)

wizer":31nrydfr said:


> tempting Mark but I'd rather not  I'm prety sure she's going to do it so even if it's next summer, I know it's going to get done.



Shame, I REALLY like knocking things down :wink:


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## Night Train (14 Jul 2009)

MarkW":ayr12m20 said:


> wizer":ayr12m20 said:
> 
> 
> > tempting Mark but I'd rather not  I'm prety sure she's going to do it so even if it's next summer, I know it's going to get done.
> ...


My ex wife was like that. I even bought her a sledge hammer for a birthday because she broke her previous one. I then had to change it from a 10lb to a 7lb as it was too heavy for her! :lol:


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## devonwoody (14 Jul 2009)

wizer":2cjhrn92 said:


> Good question Padawan. I think I'm going to board it.



Boarding it could lead to dry rot?
Rising damp is also something to take into consideration IMO.


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## wizer (14 Jul 2009)

devonwoody":wrtvl87t said:


> wizer":wrtvl87t said:
> 
> 
> > Good question Padawan. I think I'm going to board it.
> ...



Yes but hopefully we've solved the problem. I'm not going to live in fear of it. It's only going of be a sheet of OSB.


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## wizer (14 Jul 2009)

MarkW":32yq3x54 said:


> wizer":32yq3x54 said:
> 
> 
> > tempting Mark but I'd rather not  I'm prety sure she's going to do it so even if it's next summer, I know it's going to get done.
> ...



Me too, it's the clearing up I don't enjoy...


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## wizer (14 Jul 2009)

Thinking about this further. If you guys really want to have a go at demolishing it then we could call it the very definition of a *BASH*. I'd be happy to lay on catering and hopefully, if there is enough of us, we can have it tidied away into a skip in a morning and talk wood for the rest of the day. If we call it late August then my workshop should be sorted out too.

Entirely up to you. As I say, they're going to pull it down anyway so there's no need, other than to feed our masculinity


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## Benchwayze (14 Jul 2009)

My garage floor has this effect on MDF if I forget and stand any on edge, directly on the concrete. 

I asked a builder about this.

I was told most integral garages have floors below the house damp-course, and in sandy areas especially, they don't bother putting DPM in a garage. They just slope the floor so a wet vehicle drip-dries and the water runs off. There certainly isn't a DPM in my garage, but apart from the MDF problem, it doesn't seem to have any effect. 

I have very little rust in the shop and I put this down to the south-facing metal, door acting as a radiator/convector. A built-in dehumidifier! It certainly saves me a lot of work on my machines. 
 

John


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## wizer (14 Jul 2009)

Actually, despite the title. I've never had damp problems as such. No rust and all the timber has been fine other then what's been right in front of the leak.


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## wizer (14 Jul 2009)

Cleared out the other area this afternoon ready for the synthaprufe.












As you can see it's still damp down there so I'm gong to have to wait for it to dry out. I hope it hurrys up as I'm on a bit of a roll with this.


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## devonwoody (14 Jul 2009)

I still think because your floor level is lower than the DPC it will all end in misery!


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