# Ever been had ? read this



## Blister (17 Jul 2008)

Well you may recall my sequence of events recently , well here is the latest update

I advertised a Fuji S5 pro DSLR camera with Nikon lens for sale on a internet web site , I had a call from a potential buyer who sounded very keen to buy

Asked If he could come and have a look to check the condition and operation
Sounds good so far ?

When he arrived he had a good look and said he would buy it for the selling price of £500 , and as he had just sold some items through PayPal would I accept a papal payment for the £500 , I said yes as long as he covered the £17.50 charges .

So I got paypal up on my PC he logs into his account and sends me £500 then logs out

I check my emails and get one confirming I had received a £500 transaction , so I the go into my paypal account and see a transaction for £500 and it says it is completed

So , deal done and off he goes with the camera

Today I check my emails and have one claiming back the £500 from my Paypal account 
I phone Paypal and they say the person claimed it back because of unauthorised use of his account , and advise I go and report it to the Police , and that they are investigating my claim 

So with the Police we have who will not want to know as with all my other events involving the Police , It looks like I have been turned over !!

So warning to you all , be careful


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## NickWelford (17 Jul 2008)

Bummer

DO you Know for sure that the person who ripped you off was not the actual paypal account holder, who is just running the scam? I think I might have taken some other ID from him, but too late now. At least when you mail stuff following a paypal enquiry, you have some sort of address to chase, but even that can be difficult in a case such as yours.

No car number plate? easy to think of afterwards, isn't it.


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## davegw (17 Jul 2008)

Blimey Allen - not what you need - sorry to hear about this mate. 

The money must hove come from an account somewhere along the line, surely they can track him through that?

Hope it get's sorted out soon.

Dave


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2008)

pursue it, don't give up. 
A friend of mine recently had a very similar thing happen to him. Some woman came into his shop, bought a load of gear, card authorised etc, blah blah. Then a couple of weeks later the CC company tried to do a cashback (or whatever they call it) saying the card owner had reported the card had been used without his consent or knowledge? 
Thing is my friend was a bit suspicious because of the way the woman was acting so, he followed her home in his car. Guess where to....... the home of the cardholder!!!!! 
They all try it on but mention the Police and fraud and they soon drop their claim if it's bogus.


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## andycktm (17 Jul 2008)

How can Pay Pal take money out of your account without your permision?
Sounds like it's Pay Pal you want to be reporting for thieft of your money!
If they have authourised it, must be their fault :?


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## Gary (17 Jul 2008)

andycktm":fgf39qg0 said:


> How can Pay Pal take money out of your account without your permision?
> Sounds like it's Pay Pal you want to be reporting for thieft of your money!
> If they have authourised it, must be their fault :?




Thats not how paypal work, they are a law unto themselves and unregulated at that.

Allen was the camera sold via ebay? 
If so this is a common scam, all the buyer would need to do is tell paypal the item was never received and they would have refunded them anyway as you have no proof of delivery. Seems to matter not that the item was collected in person. Paypal are a joke.


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2008)

Can you put together a good description of who ever it was? Might be worth chasing the police, they won't bother otherwise, but fraud is fraud and they should not get away with it.


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## Gary (17 Jul 2008)

Allen be very careful what you post on an open forum.

You never know who's looking in. :wink:


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## brianhabby (17 Jul 2008)

As others have said Gary, you should chase this one up. Get the police to do their job. It _must_ be possible to trace him - they (Paypal) must know where the money went if they took it off you, who did they give it too.

I notice on the news tonight that the Home Office are reporting a big drop in crime figures - I wonder if it's because people are not bothering to report incidents because they know in most cases they will be wasting their time - I know I have.

Don't let him get away with it.

regards

Brian


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## Gary (17 Jul 2008)

brianhabby":1nwshik4 said:


> As others have said Gary, you should chase this one up. Get the police to do their job. It _must_ be possible to trace him - they (Paypal) must know where the money went if they took it off you, who did they give it too.



As I already said with Paypal he's pi$$ing in the wind. Item was collected, he has no proof of delivery therefor no case with Paypal. I don't make those rules its just how they are. Allen isn't letting him get away with it, he has a bit of an uphill battle on his hands but suitable advice is at hand to him. :wink:


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## RogerS (18 Jul 2008)

Really sorry to hear of your scam. As Gary says I doubt that you will get very far with PayPal. They are a law unto themselves. All that you'll end up with is a load of adrenalin coursing through your bloodstream when you realise that PayPal will do nothing. Nor can you pursue them through the courts as they are registered in Luxembourg. Question - why would any company with integrity choose to register where they can't be touched.

Are you able to claim off your house insurance? Just a thought.

Bit late now but hopefully others can adopt what I do which is to set up a separate bankaccount for PayPal transactions. As soon as any money goes into it, I transfer it out to mynormal bank account. That way they can't smash and grab it.


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## Anonymous (18 Jul 2008)

The stories on the internet of Paypal are horrifying. There may be scope for taking the issue up with the banking ombudsmen. This could put pressure on the government to force Paypal into the banking regulations.

Even if you do as Roger suggests there are still stories of Paypal using debt collectors. The only solution is not to use Paypal.

Dave


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## eggflan (18 Jul 2008)

davejester":16ycch8h said:


> The stories on the internet of Paypal are horrifying. There may be scope for taking the issue up with the banking ombudsmen. This could put pressure on the government to force Paypal into the banking regulations.
> 
> Even if you do as Roger suggests there are still stories of Paypal using debt collectors. The only solution is not to use Paypal.
> 
> Dave





Unfortunatly due to ebay changing its policys you have to offer paypal as a means of payment , if you sell on ebay you have no choice its paypal or dont sell on ebay ,,, this is a scam in itself seen as ebay and paypal are now the same company so when you pay your fees to paypal you are just paying ebay , its like shopping at M&S and only being able to use there store card to pay for your goods :roll: :roll: 

Paypal have a record of every user so i would chase them up and tell them what has happened but as you dont have proof that the guy collected the item i dont know what they will do for you .

If you happen to have the guys ebay user name then keep an eye on his account and when he offers something up for sale bid on it and win the item then go and collect it from the address he will supply but use someone elses account or he will recognise your user name :wink: thats presuming that it was an ebay sale in the first place ..

Hope this is of some help 

Mic..


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## eggflan (18 Jul 2008)

Thinking on , if the guy used your computer to access his paypal account to pay you then not only will they have a record of the payment but it will also show up your IP address so this would prove he was there to collect the goods :wink: Just a thought ,may be worth chasing up :!:


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## mr (19 Jul 2008)

eggflan":40rcn3be said:


> it will also show up your IP address so this would prove he was there to collect the goods :wink: !:



Or that you fraudulently accessed his account to make the payment to yourself which was possibly the basis of his claim and rescinding of the payment. Unfortunately the IP address probably doesn't help.

Cheers Mike


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## BradNaylor (19 Jul 2008)

Call me old fashioned, but if I was selling something to someone who was then going to take it with them I would insist on cash.

Proper cash.

Dan


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## RogerS (19 Jul 2008)

davejester":36n8nwsv said:


> .....
> Even if you do as Roger suggests there are still stories of Paypal using debt collectors. The only solution is not to use Paypal.
> 
> Dave



Debt collectors? Only if they have taken you to court surely?


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## brianhabby (19 Jul 2008)

RogerS":2hc436cd said:


> davejester":2hc436cd said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



A firm can employ a debt collector _before_ taking someone to court. It is only bailiffs that cannot be used unless the case has been through the courts.

regards

Brian


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## RogerS (19 Jul 2008)

brianhabby":wtmdfbzp said:


> RogerS":wtmdfbzp said:
> 
> 
> > davejester":wtmdfbzp said:
> ...



That's interesting. So what happens when they turn up at your door? Can they force their way in?


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## Jake (19 Jul 2008)

No, all they can do is threaten to sue.

It just means that either paypal pay them to chase the 'debt' or paypal sell the 'debt' to the collectors at a discount and cut their 'losses'.


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## Slim (19 Jul 2008)

Debt collecters are laughable. All they can do is harrass and intimidate. If one ever turns up at your door, just tell them to leave. If they persist, you have the right to call the police. Only baliffs acting on a court order can force access into your home to recover debts.


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## brianhabby (19 Jul 2008)

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Debt collectors are just private citizens like you and I and have no rights what so ever as regards entering your property.

The rules for bailiffs are a little more complicated. Normally when someone takes you to court for non payment of monies they will use the County Court. If you do not pay when ordered to do so by the County Court, the Plaintiff may apply for a warrant for the bailiffs to visit you.

A County Court Bailiff has no more right to force entry into your home than anyone else - however, they _are_ allowed to enter through an open door or window, but they are not allowed to force entry.

If you invite the bailiff in then he can remain and insist that you either pay him in full or sign a walking possession. Once he has a walking possession signed by you, this then gives him the authority to force entry on a subsequent visit if you do not pay.

So if you ever get visited by a County Court Bailiff and you haven't signed a walking possession, *don't* invite him in and keep your doors and windows closed. You do not even have to open the door to him.

There are different rules for Magistrates Court Bailiffs and they are used by the police for criminal matters such as fines, non-payment of council rates, electricity & gas among others. They _can_ force entry on a first visit.

DAMHIKT

regards

Brian


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## brianhabby (19 Jul 2008)

So, getting back on track here, What is the best thing to do when someone wants to pay via PayPal and collect the goods.

What should you do if for instance he pays via PayPal and then turns up to collect the goods? Would it be sufficient to ask him to sign for the goods?

Is is possible to insist that when an item is collected then it _must_ be paid for in cash. How does this reconcile with eBay's policy of forcing you to accept PayPal? How can you insist that the person pays in cash when there is 'Pay with PayPal' splashed all over your listing?

Sorry for so many questions, it's just that I am about to list something that will have to be collected because of its size & weight so I would like to know the best words to use in my listing.

regards

Brian


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## RogerS (20 Jul 2008)

brianhabby":ju8r1tn7 said:


> So, getting back on track here, What is the best thing to do when someone wants to pay via PayPal and collect the goods.
> 
> What should you do if for instance he pays via PayPal and then turns up to collect the goods? Would it be sufficient to ask him to sign for the goods?
> 
> ...



Simple - just state cash on collection. That way the buyer is protected in case of non-delivery and he can see/touch feel the goods. Downside is that they may then decide not to purchase. 

When buying goods myself I never ever send off either a cheque or a bankers draft. It's either PayPal or cash on collection.


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## BradNaylor (20 Jul 2008)

brianhabby":1gpq01ew said:


> ABSOLUTELY NOT.
> 
> Debt collectors are just private citizens like you and I and have no rights what so ever as regards entering your property.
> 
> ...



You must either be an ex-bailiff or have an even dodgier past than me!

:wink: 


Dan


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## Losos (20 Jul 2008)

andycktm":mjz16tyk said:


> How can Pay Pal take money out of your account without your permision?
> Sounds like it's Pay Pal you want to be reporting for thieft of your money!
> If they have authourised it, must be their fault :?



Yes, the whole Paypal thing strikes terror into me :lol: 

Someone above said persue it, but why should the UKW member have to go to all the hassle and time doing this :?: Surely it should be PayPal who do all the chasing around and God knows they should certainly provide a written answer as to why they with drew the money without the sellers permission.

I've been told today that there is a book on E-bay I've been wanting to buy it's pound 14.95 but I'm not going to buy it using PayPal I would much rather pay the $40 that Amazon want, I will sleep easier and get the book in pristine condition, and know that I'm dealing with a firm who have (so far) never let me down, that, to me, is well worth the extra cost.


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## brianhabby (20 Jul 2008)

Hi Blister,

It's just occurred to me, you say you had a call from this guy, then surely there is a record of the phone call and him calling you. Surely this would be enough for the police to take you seriously.

regards

Brian


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## andycktm (20 Jul 2008)

It's a shame but the police don't bother with crimes
like this anymore.if you do 60 in a 50 yes but theft
no.The only option are people like watchdog
to try and shame ebay uk rep's into doing something.


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## Vormulac (21 Jul 2008)

It's looking increasingly like my other half has been ripped off through a paypal scam. She sold a mobile phone on ebay and after it had been paid for and sent (and duly received, with the buyer sending positive feedback to that effect) the amount was removed from her account again supposedly upon the instructions of the buyer's credit card company. Now he is refusing to reply to emails and the woman who answered the phone number he gave says she's never heard of the guy. We have the address it was sent to, there are obviously records of payments sent and subsequently recinded and we have the guy's email address - I'm going to talk to the Police about this if the money doesn't turn up soon, as it's fraud/theft. :evil:


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## Blister (21 Jul 2008)

brianhabby":1i219bor said:


> Hi Blister,
> 
> It's just occurred to me, you say you had a call from this guy, then surely there is a record of the phone call and him calling you. Surely this would be enough for the police to take you seriously.
> 
> ...



Told the police I had a phone number for him and they said " we don't do phone numbers " unless its something important , like murder !!!

at that point I said makes me wonder why we are forced to pay council tax , as part of that is SUPPOSED to be for policing


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## mr (21 Jul 2008)

If the phone was locked to a network can you contact the network operator and have the phone stopped as a stolen phone which is essentially what it is. 

Cheers Mike


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## RogerS (21 Jul 2008)

Blister":1hxv1tr2 said:


> brianhabby":1hxv1tr2 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Blister,
> ...



Well why don't you give us his phone number? Then we can set up our computers to autodial him at random times during the night :twisted:


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## RogerS (21 Jul 2008)

Vormulac":drtphk4l said:


> It's looking increasingly like my other half has been ripped off through a paypal scam. She sold a mobile phone on ebay and after it had been paid for and sent (and duly received, with the buyer sending positive feedback to that effect) the amount was removed from her account again supposedly upon the instructions of the buyer's credit card company. Now he is refusing to reply to emails and the woman who answered the phone number he gave says she's never heard of the guy. We have the address it was sent to, there are obviously records of payments sent and subsequently recinded and we have the guy's email address - I'm going to talk to the Police about this if the money doesn't turn up soon, as it's fraud/theft. :evil:



Hard luck, mate. Very worrying though and to be honest why don't you right to one of the tabloids? Seems to me that the PayPal guarantee is worthless. They should be taking the risk even if the credit card was stolen etc. PayPal b**ta*ds. Doubt that the police will take any interest. 

Out of interest, did you call the phone number before you sent the goods off? Just wondered if the scammer chose a number at random.

Or give us all his email address and between us all we can sign him up to about 100,000 subscription services.... :twisted:


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## Vormulac (21 Jul 2008)

LOL - naughty Roger! :lol: 

She didn't call the number beforehand as you have to do a 'request for details' in order to get that sort of information, and she only does that to chivvy along reticent buyers as they then get an email informing them that their contact information has been requested and passed on.
I think if I don't get any luck from this guy this week then his email may appear on the internet, along with his address and as much info as can be dredged from the internet... not by me, you understand, I wouldn't do a thing like that...
I'm in London, the address it was sent to is in Sevenoaks, I bloody hate thieves and criminal scum in general, and I'm close enough and sufficiently livid about this to contemplate going and having a quiet word with whoever lives at that address.
Yes, I know that would be *really* stupid.


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## Digit (21 Jul 2008)

There is of course a possibility that the guy whose account was used is genuine and that his account was used without his consent.

Roy.


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## Timmo (21 Jul 2008)

This is all very worrying...Paypal really are useless...
I had an incident myself...I was away on holiday and came back to find a load of e mails from paypal telling me they had suspected unauthorised access of my account..There were about 8 payments made to some online computer game websites...
Obviously it wasn't me because I was on holiday at the time anyway...They eventually sorted it out although their communication was absolute pants throughout what was a very stressful time as the total gone from the account was over £200...
But the thing I kept asking them and never got an answer to was how they knew that it was unauthorised use of my account before I even reported it? Is their security that dodgy?
I hate (and I know it is a strong word) the fact that so many online payments revolve around paypal...if they actually got it sorted it would be good but I feel uncomfortable using it still...
I am sorry for OP and the other chap with the phone..it really stinks..but to acho what Dan wrote...If someone is collecting or if I am collecting something then cash is the only way to go...

I had another dodgy encounter on e bay a few weeks ago...I won a dead rusty record 52 or 52 1/2 can't remember which but got it for £1.99...It was down in Christchurch so I gave my brother the contact details and he arranged and went and collected it...it had taken me about 5 messages to get the contact details out of the seller and I was not filled with much confidence especially as he was saying he wanted paying via paypal...Well he messed up the invoice anyway and tried to charge me another £13 for shipping even though I told him it was being collected..so he would either have to correct the invoice or as I finally got him to agree to accept cash on collection....
Its a shame there are such unsavoury characters out there..makes you wish there was something you could do...


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## brianhabby (21 Jul 2008)

So, how can you protect yourself if someone pays for something using PayPal but it has to be collected?

I'll give you an example that happened today.

I sold my old saw on eBay. I said in the listing that I would prefer cash on collection but the guy paid via PayPal - the reason, which I happen to believe on this occasion was quite genuine, was because he (the buyer) lives in Cheshire and his brother who was asked to collect the saw, lives close to me. His brother picked the saw up today and we had a good old chinwag, I'm quite sure these people are okay, but what about the next one?

I cannot _insist_ they pay by cash because eBay force you to accept PayPal.

regards

Brian


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## mr (21 Jul 2008)

brianhabby":2lrtw33k said:


> I cannot _insist_ they pay by cash because eBay force you to accept PayPal.



Is this a new policy? 

I've paid cash on ebay purcahses before. 

Cheers Mike


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## DaveL (21 Jul 2008)

mr":1niga39s said:


> Is this a new policy?
> 
> I've paid cash on ebay purcahses before.


It is new, you can pay with cash, but ebay will only let you sell things if you agree to take PayPal, so as a seller you cannot avoid some buyers using PayPal.


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## mr (21 Jul 2008)

Ahhh i
CAnt see myself being a huge ebay user in future then. 

Cheers Mike


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## RogerS (22 Jul 2008)

There's my story here that highlights how weak ebay security is. Can only assume Paypal is just as bad.


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## mahking51 (25 Jul 2008)

Hi all,
Just talked to my advisor at HSBC Telephone Banking (Personal) to discuss this thread as PP have a D Debit to my personal account for my EBay dealings.
He tells me that there is no way of capping the possible payments that PP may take BUT, BUT, BUT, if I felt that something amiss had occurred along the lines of this thread he says that they can issue a Direct Debit Dispute Notice and immediately refund my funds from PayPal while the issue is investigated.
Upon resolution I either keep my money or if I am deemed at fault back it goes to PP.
At least there can then be some real dialogue to sort it out., hopefully :? 
Regards,
Martin


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