# Keto diet



## artie (12 Feb 2022)

It looks like we may be going on a keto diet.

SWMBO is looking into it.

Anyone here have any experience?


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## Sporky McGuffin (12 Feb 2022)

A couple of goes; it's effective initially (though like everything else that's mostly water loss), but I didn't find it useful longer term, and it's a fair bit of effort and inconvenience.

What I found more effective was working out my calorie intake and how I could reduce it while still eating stuff I liked, along with reducing meal size (so you don't get that full/empty cycle to the same extent) in exchange for adding elevenses and afternoonses, and forming habits for sustainable, happy eating and weight loss.


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## porker (12 Feb 2022)

I've been keto for about 18 months now. Reason for me was to control diabetes type2. It hs worked well so far. I know there has recently been a thread running with heated opinions on some elements so my views are simply my own based on a lot of research (for and against) to try to get the balanced view. Interestingly due to having cancer treatement last year I have encountered different views from heathcare professionals so opinion is divided. For me it has helped control my blood sugar with minimal medication and I lost some weight which I am keeping off easily.


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## porker (12 Feb 2022)

For me the pros and cons are....

Pros
Not too difficult from a hunger point of view
I found natural weight loss close to my ideal weight and consequently feel fitter (I am a snowboarder and definately noticed a difference here)
Far less sugar (almost none) which is a good thing generally
Controls my diabetes blood / sugar. Obviously not an issue for non diabetics

Cons
Miss a lot of carbs which I have completely cut out (Beer, bread (I make a keto substitute), pasta, rice, cakes, biscuits etc.
Fruit has to be limited because it contains a lot of sugar
More expense for food - carbs are cheap food
Need to plan your meals - I want to limit my intake of 'bad' fats but in general you ramp up fat because that is what your body is burning

Some of the things to look into that are the controversial areas
- cholestorol - cholestorol numbers are likley to increase on keto. This area is more complex than high is bad and low is good. You need to look at your hcl and ldl numbers. I'll let you make your own mind up on this as it is a complex area and not as simple as some would have you believe.
- keto is not sustainable - seen a few of the "Sunday magazine" headlines on this but never an explanation as to why. There are people who have done it for decades so maybe there is more to this
- Excessive protein - your protein intake is likley to increase on keto and there is some evidence that this may cause some issues. At the time I was being treated for kidney cancer (before I went keto) I also had a kidney stone. I am wary of these as excessive protein doesn't help. I take some supplements to try to prevent this being an issue.

Recipes
There are plenty of keto recipes out there. Some are great and some are frankly horrible. A few things I changed to are
- Cauliflower rice (cauliflower grated up instead of rice), Courgette in place of pasta (not as bad as it sounds)
- Almond flour for some recipes
- Eggs, Green vegetables, fish, nuts, oat fibre and vital wheat gluten (for bread)
- the odd glass of red wine (no beer)

BTW - My GP is very supportive of my approach and my last HbA1c showed my diabetes effectively in remission.. Whether my next will show the same is to be seen. I have also met other medics who are not supportive of keto.


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## Sporky McGuffin (12 Feb 2022)

porker said:


> - keto is not sustainable - seen a few of the "Sunday magazine" headlines on this but never an explanation as to why. There are people who have done it for decades so maybe there is more to this



I think like most diets it'll work for some and not for others. I think reducing processed carb intake is probably a decent start for anyone wanting to lose weight; I think some people (including me) struggle a bit with really low carb diets. It's all too easy then for a columnist in need of a column to polarise that.


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## selectortone (12 Feb 2022)

Counting calories is the only truly scientific way to lose weight. 

It's simple science: if you burn more calories than you ingest you lose weight, if you ingest more than you burn you put it on.


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## artie (12 Feb 2022)

selectortone said:


> Counting calories is the only truly scientific way to lose weight.
> 
> It's simple science: if you burn more calories than you ingest you lose weight, if you ingest more than you burn you put it on.


Pretty sure it's not that simple.

But the subject here is Keto


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## selectortone (12 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> Pretty sure it's not that simple.
> 
> But the subject here is Keto


It is that simple.


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## artie (12 Feb 2022)

selectortone said:


> It is that simple.


Ok here we go then.
Is it you position that, if I eat 1500 calories of cheese and onion crisps, it will have the exact same effect as if I eat 1500 calories of spinach?


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## Trainee neophyte (12 Feb 2022)

People are weirdly attached to particular ways of losing weight, and no other method will work - it's suprisingly similar to sharpening techniques. I say do what works for you, but not everyone gets on with the scary sharp system, and some people even use cheap diamond plates from China. You do you.

I was put on the Atkins Diet 20 years ago by my lovely wife (she was the lovely girlfriend at that point), and I remember it being dull and expensive - very much a weird, fad diet. I seem to remember meals consisting of a mountain of chicken legs and broccoli. As someone fully wedded to carbohydrates I was never going to make it a permanent lifestyle choice, and it probably lasted all of three months. As I understand it Keto and Atkins are somewhat interchangeable.

May I recommend The Obesity Code: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss (Why Intermittent Fasting Is the Key to Controlling Your Weight): 1: Amazon.co.uk: Fung, Jason, M.D., Noakes, Timothy: 9781771641258: Books

It's a good read, and explains what is going on metabolically and why just reducing calories tends to make you fatter and is for most people completely unsustainable - counterintuitive but there you go.


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## mikej460 (12 Feb 2022)

porker said:


> Cauliflower rice (cauliflower grated up instead of rice)



is as bad as it sounds


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## selectortone (12 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> Ok here we go then.
> Is it you position that, if I eat 1500 calories of cheese and onion crisps, it will have the exact same effect as if I eat 1500 calories of spinach?


Yes. A calorie is a calorie - a unit of energy. It makes no difference where it comes from. Good luck trying to eat 1500 calories of spinach in one sitting though.

(Spinach has 7 calories per ounce so 1500 calories of spinach would be around 13lbs. Good luck with that)


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## artie (12 Feb 2022)

selectortone said:


> Yes. A calorie is a calorie - a unit of energy. It makes no difference where it comes from. Good luck trying to eat 1500 calories of spinach in one sitting though.
> 
> (Spinach has 7 calories per ounce so 1500 calories of spinach would be around 13lbs. Good luck with that)


You really haven't got a clue.

But if you want to discuss that theory please start your own thread. I started this one to discuss Keto.


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## Inspector (12 Feb 2022)

mikej460 said:


> is as bad as it sounds



Actually the "rice" is pretty good if you do it right. After a little boil stir fry it with some other chopped veggies and a little Soya or Hoisin sauce or make patties with some grated parmigiana cheese, spices and fry them and you'll be surprised to discover it doesn't taste anything like the boiled cauliflower you are thinking of. 

Pete


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## DavidConnelly (13 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> It looks like we may be going on a keto diet.
> 
> SWMBO is looking into it.
> 
> Anyone here have any experience?


Don't do it. 
A much more natural way to diet is to log exactly what you eat. If you use a free app like "myfitnesspal" 

Then you set your age, height and weight. Also the weight you want to be. 
You have to honestly log everything you eat. Most things are already on the app. Or you can add particular foods or meals. The app tells you the amount of calories per day you can eat to lose or gain the weight you want. 

I lost 10kg over 4 months. And it didn't feel like I wS even dieting. 
Honesty is the way to go though. If you tell the app you had a small portion of chips when you really had a fish supper. It just wont work.


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## Speedy23 (13 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> You really haven't got a clue.
> 
> But if you want to discuss that theory please start your own thread. I started this one to discuss Keto.


I've got to agree with you artie, I've been on keto diet for 5 years now owing to type 2 diabetes...still maintaining blood sugar at "normal" level, no medication necessary....yet.

The point about "a calorie is a calorie"...well, no, it isn't. I don't really calorie count, yet when I started, I lost a lot (3.5 stone) of weight and I've kept it off. Yet I eat lots of butter, cream, animal fat. My cholesterol is high-ish but the HDL/LDL ratio is very good.

So lots of calories from fat, but don't put on any weight. The point is that when your body is operating in ketosis, you don't metabolise a "calorie's worth" of fat in the same way that a "calorie's worth" of carbohydrate is metabolised.

This, as far as my experience - and the experience of countless others - goes, is what happens.

Not what "should" happen but what DOES happen. Fact demonstrated by empirical evidence.

But I've only got to look at a slice of bread, or a bottle of beer.....


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## Westwood (13 Feb 2022)

Interesting thread. I went keto three years ago and am very happy with it. Felt so much better and got rid of a couple of conditions I had had for a few years, persistent cough, and excema particularly. 9kg weight loss and flabby tummy went which I was pleased about. Like everything, e.g. woodwork on Youtube there's a lot of rubbish and poor advice out there. I was in a group of 12 with a trained keto "coach" and chef running a course. healthyketolifestyle.com The course was ten weeks - each weekly session started with science and medical facts, and finished with recipes and cooking demos, and a few group meals and exercise sessions. We were told particularly to steer clear of "internet keto". Keto is a commitment and is as much about planning and attitude as anything. Like everything it needs discipline. Its more difficult if like me you are the only one in a household who commits. Exercise and plenty of drinking water are good as well. And a day most weeks of not eating. That is perhaps the biggest commitment to make but once you get used to that, it makes the biggest difference. Planning a fast day can be very satisfying, its great if you work on your own and want a day where you don't have to stop for a couple of meals. Ideal when travelling, no having snack and rubbish food in airports or railway stations etc. I go "off piste" now and then e.g. having a beer at rugby matches. Family gatherings, Christmas lunches etc can be a challenge but its relatively easy to get back to full keto afterwards.
Would I recommend it, definitely but just like woodwork, get help and advice


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## artie (13 Feb 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> A couple of goes;





porker said:


> I've been keto for about 18 months now.





Speedy23 said:


> I've got to agree with you artie,





Westwood said:


> Interesting thread.


Thanks.
It looks like it's happening.
Eggs bacon, mushrooms, tomato, avocado and coffee for breakfast today.

Quite pleasant and filling.
I've been reading up online and as usual there's an abundance of info.

Some recommend no more than 20g of carbs per day, I'm wondering what did you all do, did you count that closely or not. I don't intend to be too strict, at least not initially, just cut out spuds, bread etc, the high carb stuff.
Too much too soon might be counter productive.

Someone mentioned intermittent fasting as well as keto.
My eating window is at present 9/15 I could go to 6/18 without much trouble but don't intend to immediately.


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## Sporky McGuffin (13 Feb 2022)

Good luck! 

I did count the first time, the second time I knew what came to what.


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## Greenfellers (13 Feb 2022)

Look up Dr Michael Mosley, he has done lots of research, trialled on himself to sort out being prediabetic and then gone on to develop and refine, also done tv shows abour it. Fast 800 is his diet regime. You can sign up online (for a fee) and have 12 weeks of meal plans, shopping lists and recipes delivered to you on a weekly basis, along wiith access to a group foum, excercise plans and some explanation of the science behind it. Takes the ballsache out of writng menus and shopping lists.
You can tailor the online menus for any number of people and it will update the shopping lists. 

Oh, and the meals are pretty good.

Good luck.


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## doctor Bob (13 Feb 2022)

Good luck Artie, be nice if a few of these diet threads were kept up to date with progress and success or failure


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## artie (13 Feb 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Good luck Artie, be nice if a few of these diet threads were kept up to date with progress and success or failure


Thanks Bob.
I'll make it a priority.
I feel that way about a lot of threads where members give varying advice but seldom get any feedback.

I must go read some other diet threads.


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## SamG340 (13 Feb 2022)

It's just the Atkins on toast ( apart from you're not allowed toast )  

I've heard good things


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## sammy.se (13 Feb 2022)

selectortone said:


> Counting calories is the only truly scientific way to lose weight.
> 
> It's simple science: if you burn more calories than you ingest you lose weight, if you ingest more than you burn you put it on.




Totally wrong. That ignores the entire endocrinology (hormones) aspects of the human system.
We are not engine's. Hormones in our body affect the way calories are metabolised.


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## sammy.se (13 Feb 2022)

When my head is in the right space, keto works great for me. I feel healthier, lose weight and hunger cravings are reduced/gone.

My problem is in my head (emotional eating etc).

Here are some science based resources:
"Low Carb MD" podcast
"The case for Keto" by Gary Taubes
Jason Fung
Eric Westman


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## D_W (13 Feb 2022)

works great for a short term ,but becomes a pain to keep the amount of calories around that you need unless you want to eat pure fat. 

short term as in you can blast off 15 pounds with no effort in 30-40 days (assume starting point around 200 pounds, that's my reference) but the inconvenience if you're actually in ketosis, you can get bumped out of it super easily and each time you bump out, you'll be incented to do something else. 

long term proven safe diet if done right, though it may not be as healthy as other diets (the long term use of it is for diabetics and epileptics). 

Healthy version of the diet assumes a healthy fat balance that's not that easy to get (20% saturated / 80% unsaturated). 

Only other notable memory is if you have something you do physically that involves walking up an incline or jogging or something, it's not the diet for that - you'll feel like you're working twice as hard as there are no quick access calories. For walking or sitting around, you won't notice the lack of quick energy. 

If you're following it, though, it's almost impossible to not lose weight.


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## D_W (13 Feb 2022)

Greenfellers said:


> Look up Dr Michael Mosley, he has done lots of research, trialled on himself to sort out being prediabetic and then gone on to develop and refine, also done tv shows abour it. Fast 800 is his diet regime. You can sign up online (for a fee) and have 12 weeks of meal plans, shopping lists and recipes delivered to you on a weekly basis, along wiith access to a group foum, excercise plans and some explanation of the science behind it. Takes the ballsache out of writng menus and shopping lists.
> You can tailor the online menus for any number of people and it will update the shopping lists.
> 
> Oh, and the meals are pretty good.
> ...



Boy does "recipes delivered to you" sound like an expensive way to lose weight without a long-term structure.


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## NormanB (14 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> It looks like we may be going on a keto diet.
> 
> SWMBO is looking into it.
> 
> Anyone here have any experience?


The Keto diet is a potential solution for all. However it is not an easy diet (or rather lifestyle) at all, particularly for those brought up in the West.

There is a great deal to understand before you actually get it:
1. The role of all sugars in the dietary mix (both natural and added).
2. The role of insulin in controlling blood sugar.
3. How insulin controls blood sugar.
4. The implication and impact of fat laid down around visceral organs via insulin.
5. The concept of insulin resistance.
6. The journey to Type 2 Diabetes.

The biggest difficulty (apart from gaining an understanding of the point above is - society.
Our society, like all all in the West, is carbohydrate and added sugar rich. Controlling your intake of sugars in this context is just as difficult as giving up smoking.

Do your research, in this context, and you are more likely to be successful.

For those that say it works for some and not for others - true the others did not understand nor had had the commitment to maintain the discipline to do it in a society that bombard you with you carbs wherever you go.

I have been doing it successfully for three years, so has my wife. My daughter and husband were so impressed they have taken it up and been equally successful - we have influenced others who have been equally successful but the details of that are irrelevant.


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## Inspector (14 Feb 2022)

Genetic makeup has to be considered too and people should take that into consideration. First Nation peoples in Canada have 3 to 4 times the rate of diabetes as non-natives. They evolved eating a high protein diet with virtually no carbohydrates and zip for sugar and do not do well on a western style diet especially a junk food filled one. Lots of us others even among those that evolved eating more grains have trouble with it too. Reducing or taking out the carbs won't hurt you in the least and this from a sugar lover.  Choice is yours however....at least until it isn't.

Pete


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## sammy.se (15 Feb 2022)

NormanB said:


> The Keto diet is a potential solution for all. However it is not an easy diet (or rather lifestyle) at all, particularly for those brought up in the West.
> 
> There is a great deal to understand before you actually get it:
> 1. The role of all sugars in the dietary mix (both natural and added).
> ...




Great post, +1 to all of this.


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## RobinBHM (15 Feb 2022)

I’m not sure long term keto diets are terribly healthy, certainly anybody considering a keto diet should consider the risks:

keto diets:
1) May have high fat content, so could raise bad cholestoral levels.

2) keto diets contain the types of foods that are associated with cancer risks

3) keto diets can hasten kidney disease or kidney stones. There is concern that high protein intake may promote renal damage by chronically increasing glomerular pressure and hyperfiltration

4) Keto is not safe for those with any conditions involving their pancreas, liver, thyroid or gallbladder

5) a keto diet depletes potassium, this leads to high high blood pressure. Potassium supplements or lots of vegetables should be considered on a keto diet.


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## NormanB (15 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> I’m not sure long term keto diets are terribly healthy, certainly anybody considering a keto diet should consider the risks:
> 
> keto diets:
> 1) May have high fat content, so could raise bad cholestoral levels.
> ...


I am pretty sure your post can be categorised as a unfounded and ill informed.


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## artie (20 Feb 2022)

Update after week 1

First week so not quite keto yet but definitely low carb.
I cut out potatoes and bread, but there was potato salad and beans in stock so used them up.
I also decided I'd add intermittent fasting to the mix, so just eating from around midday to around 6pm.

Result a weight reduction of 900grams.
80 kg last Sunday morning, 79.1 this morning.

Quite happy with that.


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## johnny (20 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> I’m not sure long term keto diets are terribly healthy, certainly anybody considering a keto diet should consider the risks:
> 
> keto diets:
> 1) May have high fat content, so could raise bad cholestoral levels.
> ...


This sort of post is illinformed and very unfortunate . It is completely lacking in even a basic understanding of how our bodies Physiology actually works .

There is so much properly researched information in this excellent thread which is also substantiated by actual personal experience .

It is good for us to question everything we see and read.......it is how we learn ...but to make statements like '4) _Keto is not safe for those with any conditions involving their pancreas, liver, thyroid or gallbladder' _is not only factually incorrect,.. it is misleading and it shows a clear lack of understanding of how our bodies work.


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## johnny (20 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> Update after week 1
> 
> First week so not quite keto yet but definitely low carb.
> I cut out potatoes and bread, but there was potato salad and beans in stock so used them up.
> ...



thats a good start Artie . I find low Carb hard for the first 4-5 days then the Carb cravings for me lessen considerably and I naturally eat less because I no longer feel continually hungry . My biggest challenge is bread biscuits and cake so I just make sure that they are not in the house so I am not tempted.

Living with a Carbohydrate tolerant and non-Diabetic partner is a challenge for me so I ask her to keep biscuits cake and bread well hidden so that I do not see it and am not tempted.

One of the ways I have found helpful in switching to a Keto or low Carb high Fat and protein diet lifestyle is to always have something healthy in the fridge to eat for those times when you need to snack. I use small cubes of hard cheese like Cathedral Mature cheddar or half a boiled egg or oily fish . I also occasionally snack on a teaspoonful of peanut butter or double cream for variety and whilst I'm aware that the peanut butter contains a small amount of sugar I figure its a insignificant amount in the scheme of things and as I monitor my blood glucose levels I can see if anything i eat is having a particularly adverse effect .

Like you I typically eat no breakfast sometimes no lunch until 2pm or later especially if I am fully occupied with something and I mostly do not feel hungry. When I do have lunch I might eat an egg with field mushroom and spinach or sardines/mackrel/pilchards or egg bacon and mushrooms etc I sometimes make my own soup like carrot & parsnip with a little garlic, pepper and a dash of cream and the taste is to die for . A mug of home made soup is very filling and satisfying and healthy real food .

Occasionally we have a fasting day which is typically a Monday so we might have just a cheese & mushroom omelette for dinner . its surprisingly easy to adopt a one day a week fast as a lifestyle once Carbs and refined foods have been significantly reduced .
Good luck with the Keto I shall be following this thread with interest .


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## AJB Temple (20 Feb 2022)

I have tried Keto a few years ago when Dr Mike Mosely was first promoting it. (Incidentally I think now he has morphed into just a salesman with a new scheme each year). It definitely worked for wight loss, but I found it tedious to sustain and eventually slipped off it. I also did the fasting diet he promoted, which also works but is hard to sustain. 

Lockdown indolence led to me gradually piling on weight and becoming pre-diabetic. I am 6' 2" and ended up at 137.5 kg. My doctor sent me on "One You Kent" diet and exercise programme. This is free and versions are run countrywide. This is not a prescriptive diet but more a set of tools and learning about food groups, and includes exercise classes. It starts with a 12 week intensive programme and lasts a year. Typically the people who achieve success with this count calories and ensure their diet is balanced.

Counting calories is MUCH harder than I thought. It is a fool's errand unless you weigh your food initially to establish how much you are really eating. I was amazed how many calories some foods contain. I used My Fitness Pal app (as someone mentioned above) and was scrupulously careful. The idea is to establish permanent lifestyle choices that we are happy to sustain. 

I started in late September 2021 and currently weigh 120Kg, so that is a loss of 17.5Kg (nearly 39 pounds). Plateau periods seem inevitable and I have accepted that it will take time to get to my goal of 95-98Kg. On the NHS BMI app this would still make me overweight - they suggest a max of 88Kg. However, I have a broad and muscly build and realistically 88Kg is not right for me. I hope to reach my goal at some point in late summer. I am in a sustained push now, expect to have one more plateau, then another sustained push. 

To achieve results so far I think the key things have been: cut out all alcohol, stop eating bread, eat hardly any potatoes, cut out orange juice, no sweets and biscuits. Sugar is very much the enemy and alcohol unfortunately is empty calories. 

I find that I have to weigh myself daily. This is to prevent slippage (and I know is not recommended). Just as important a guide for me is waist measurement (It needs to get down to 32" and is not there yet or anywhere close) and mirror aesthetics. 

I think some form of structured exercise and stretching is very important to really get the feeling of wellbeing. 

Good luck with your keto plan and I hope it works for you. I would suggest you develop a sustainability plan for what you will do when you have reached your target. This is to prevent the yo-yo effect starting and I wish I had done this when I first did the keto programme. 

Diets / lifestyle choices only work if we want them to. It's not easy at all.


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## artie (20 Feb 2022)

johnny said:


> Good luck with the Keto I shall be following this thread with interest .






AJB Temple said:


> Good luck with your keto plan and I hope it works for you. I would suggest you develop a sustainability plan for what you will do when you have reached your target.



Thank you both for some very useful information.

At 80kg I'm not considered overweight it's just that it's in the wrong place. 

Too much around my middle.

A diet isn't a big problem for me to stick to, I've been gluten free for a long time over 15 yrs

The thing about keto is to gain variety I've reintroduced meat to my diet, maybe I can phase most of it out again as I progress?


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## AJB Temple (20 Feb 2022)

I found that red meat and chicken in the keto diet became a bit repulsive after a while. If you can tolerate fish you may find it much more digestible. Oily fish such as salmon and mackerel work well. Likewise Tuna (though some people worry about mercury content). I found that the Aldi smoked salmon or cured salmon (gravadlax) is very good and is also cheap - a 160 gram pack is £2. I would eat this with hard boiled eggs. In my case it is palatable and It fits with the keto diet and is also very easy to calorie count. Filling too. Sodium content is a little high obviously in smoked salmon because of the curing process. I also made or bought red pepper paste, which is great for jazzing up fish dishes and eggs. Pelegonia Avar is a high quality one available from Waitrose, though you can make your own quite easily. 

You will probably get to a point where you find that things like sausages and bacon are not ideal. Most bacon is cured with nitrates and many people regard it as unhealthy for this reason. You can get "clean" bacon if you hunt around. Most shop bought sausages contain carb based fillers and tend to have a lot of preservatives.


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## artie (20 Feb 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I found that red meat and chicken in the keto diet became a bit repulsive after a while. If you can tolerate fish you may find it much more digestible. Oily fish such as salmon and mackerel work well. Likewise Tuna (though some people worry about mercury content). I found that the Aldi smoked salmon or cured salmon (gravadlax) is very good and is also cheap - a 160 gram pack is £2. I would eat this with hard boiled eggs. In my case it is palatable and It fits with the keto diet and is also very easy to calorie count. Filling too. Sodium content is a little high obviously in smoked salmon because of the curing process. I also made or bought red pepper paste, which is great for jazzing up fish dishes and eggs. Pelegonia Avar is a high quality one available from Waitrose, though you can make your own quite easily.
> 
> You will probably get to a point where you find that things like sausages and bacon are not ideal. * Most bacon is cured with nitrates and many people regard it as unhealthy for this reason*. You can get "clean" bacon if you hunt around. Most shop bought sausages contain carb based fillers and tend to have a lot of preservatives.



I drastically cut my meat consumption many years ago, I even went full veggie for a while.

Although bacon tastes good I am aware it's not that good for me in the long run, but for a short time until I get a handle on this it'll do.
I've noticed my toilet routine has changed and have read that constipation can be a problem, any comments on that?


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## sammy.se (21 Feb 2022)

Well done Artie!

Here's a tip for being new to Keto: As you see results, you might think "This is great, if I cut down fat consumption I will lose even more" - so people will try *only *eating lean tuna, lean fish, lean meat etc etc.
This is one of those false economies - Keto works well with fat in the diet. Extra Virgin Olive oil, and Kerry's Butter (from grass fed cows) is good for you, as is meat fats if you like that.

Try and avoid seed oils if you can - like sunflower oil, rapeseed oil, corn oil (yeah it's technically a grain I guess) - these are highly processed and aren't really fit for human consumption. They used to be used in industry before it was sold to humans to eat!

Add spinach and any leaves to your diet to help with constipation. Any leaf is fine on keto. Personally, I have also found that drinking a little bit more water while on Keto is good more me - but that might be true regardless of diet!

As others have said before, chemically processed meat isn't anti-Keto (unless they contain carby fillers), but it's just not that nice for your body... You will probably wean yourself off once you discover how nice a steak is with some butter and salad dressed in olive oil!


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## sammy.se (21 Feb 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I have tried Keto a few years ago when Dr Mike Mosely was first promoting it. (Incidentally I think now he has morphed into just a salesman with a new scheme each year). It definitely worked for wight loss, but I found it tedious to sustain and eventually slipped off it. I also did the fasting diet he promoted, which also works but is hard to sustain.
> 
> Lockdown indolence led to me gradually piling on weight and becoming pre-diabetic. I am 6' 2" and ended up at 137.5 kg. My doctor sent me on "One You Kent" diet and exercise programme. This is free and versions are run countrywide. This is not a prescriptive diet but more a set of tools and learning about food groups, and includes exercise classes. It starts with a 12 week intensive programme and lasts a year. Typically the people who achieve success with this count calories and ensure their diet is balanced.
> 
> ...



Amazing, well done.
I agree - not easy. The mental effort involved for me personally when I'm trying to lose weight is so huge. Overwhelming almost. Keto has been/is the best approach for me, but the mental aspects to eating are still my biggest challenge


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## sammy.se (21 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> I’m not sure long term keto diets are terribly healthy, certainly anybody considering a keto diet should consider the risks:
> 
> keto diets:
> 1) May have high fat content, so could raise bad cholestoral levels.
> ...




Hi Robin, Thanks for the counter point. I know proponents of Keto can come across quite... enthusiastic 
I started Keto in 2007, and haven't stayed on it the whole time since then. When I have, I've always felt better. That's just a personal experience, not a scientific study.

1/ To your points above, bad fats (processed fats, seed oils, margarine, hydrogenated fats etc.) are bad for anyone, not just Keto. Olive Oil, grass fed butter, is great for everyone.

2/ Cancer feeds off sugar. Doctors will often tell cancer patients to immediately stop eating refined sugars and lower carb intake. I always ask people with cancer (if it's not rude) what doctors tell them about food - it's quite consistent. I'm not saying other foods don't contribute to cancer.

3/ High-protein is not good - agreed. A diet made of entirely lean protein, with no healthy fats is not good for you. But that's not what Keto is. Egg yolks, butter, olive oil, natural meat fats etc are all good for you and is Keto. But, by the way, what is 'high'? who said we should have five fruit a day? five apple or bananas is a LOT of sugar. There is actually no science to show five a day is good for you, unless you know otherwise? my point is, 'high', 'low' - where does it come from? it's not always based in science (e.g. 5 per day).

4/ Not sure how you got that info? Keto is especially good for organs, because of two things: The hormone responses (Insulin etc.) is far more regulated, which puts much less pressure on the body. Fat loss on Keto is removed from around the organs first or at least quicker than other methods, also reducing pressure on organs

5/ Again, not sure if you have based this point on a study or something? a lot of the Drs on the low-carb MD podcast will attribute low-carb eating with reducing blood pressure...

I know you think I (and others) sound INSANE saying we should eat meat, fat, egg yolks. But just remember one thing:
There was a point in time when smoking cigarettes was considered good for you by doctors. We should open our minds to the possibility that doctors might be wrong again, about what food we should eat...

Dr Tim Noakes has a great story to tell about low-carb. And Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes have some great science-based info as well. All can be found on YouTube.


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## RobinBHM (21 Feb 2022)

sammy.se said:


> Hi Robin, Thanks for the counter point. I know proponents of Keto can come across quite... enthusiastic


Yes indeed, thank you for your detailed post. Some of the other responses Ive had seem to be along the lines that "you dont what you are talking about", however what I posted was based on the evidence Ive found from reliable sources

It is true that keto diets do have success in reducing type 2 diabetes and epilepsy and can help with weight loss

my research came from amongst others, these sources:

1 *Join Zoe* " Given that it’s not a balanced diet and cuts out so many nutritious foods, there’s good reason to believe that continuing with it for a significant amount of time would not be healthy "








Is the Keto Diet Safe? Who Should Avoid It?


We look at research into the safety of the keto diet in both the short and long term, and why there are particular health risks for certain people.



joinzoe.com





2. *NCBI: * "the Keto diet is limited and/or contraindicated in patients with liver failure, pancreatitis, inborn disorders of fat metabolism, primary carnitine deficiency............ Long-term side effects include hepatic steatosis, kidney stones, hypoproteinemia, and vitamin deficiency. "








Advantages and Disadvantages of the Ketogenic Diet: A Review Article


The ketogenic diet (KD) has gained immense popularity during the last decade, primarily because of its successful short-term effect on weight loss. In the United States, KD is utilized in a variety of patient populations for weight management, despite ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





3 *frontiers in nutrition:* " Foods and dietary components that typically increase on ketogenic diets (eg, red meat, processed meat, saturated fat) are linked to an increased risk of CKD, cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, and Alzheimer's disease, whereas intake of protective foods (eg, vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains) typically decreases. Current evidence suggests that for most individuals, the risks of such diets outweigh the benefits. " 

Chronic Kidney disease and kidne stones: " potential risk of animal-based ketogenic diets for those without CKD is the development of CKD through the consumption of animal fat and protein. In observational studies of populations eating Western diets, high animal fat consumption, as is common with ketogenic diets, has been associated with increased risk of developing albuminuria (107). In a prospective study of nearly 12,000 people over 23 years, high animal protein consumption was associated with a 23% increased hazard ratio of incident CKD "

Cancer: " Long-term data on cancer outcomes with ketogenic diets are lacking. However, food components typical of a ketogenic diet, such as red and processed meats, are linked to increased cancer risk (75–77). Whole grains, fruits, and vegetables are linked to a lower risk of both cancer and all-cause mortality (78, 79), yet, with the exception of non-starchy vegetables, these foods are commonly avoided on ketogenic diets. "


scientific studies can and often do include bias because of vested interest, meat industry lobbyists and plant based industry lobbyists will want to reach different conclusions


If people have tried other diets and have found success with the keto diet then great, the diet is better than the diets that havent worked. All I wanted to do was point out the potential risks.


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## D_W (21 Feb 2022)

sammy.se said:


> Well done Artie!
> 
> Here's a tip for being new to Keto: As you see results, you might think "This is great, if I cut down fat consumption I will lose even more" - so people will try *only *eating lean tuna, lean fish, lean meat etc etc.
> This is one of those false economies - Keto works well with fat in the diet. Extra Virgin Olive oil, and Kerry's Butter (from grass fed cows) is good for you, as is meat fats if you like that.
> ...



From the short bits that I've been on it, cutting out fats is a terrible idea. You're basically left with fiber and protein. Protein is an OK level food source, but to find 1500 calories of protein a day is a real tough task. The fiber calories if food is very fibrous and non sugary are overstated. 

My ultimate problem with keto was that I just couldn't eat enough because meats with nitrites will give me migraines after a couple of days or consumption. That means all of the organic crapola, too, as the pig meats have "celery salt" instead of nitrites - or translation, they also have nitrites.


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## D_W (21 Feb 2022)

(eric westman is a good *real* clinician who has been at duke med for a long time, and he does seem to have some bias, but he's not fanatical...and he's at duke and not a chiropractor's school or something. Duke is not a patsy low-effort university).


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## Inspector (21 Feb 2022)

D_W said:


> My ultimate problem with keto was that I just couldn't eat enough because meats with nitrites will give me migraines after a couple of days or consumption. That means all of the organic crapola, too, as the pig meats have "celery salt" instead of nitrites - or translation, they also have nitrites.



The only meats with nitrates in them that I know of are bacons, sausages, hams, and deli meat. Fresh meat doesn't that I am aware of and if it does it has to be labeled as such, here at least. We bought a side of beef from a farmer, cut and wrapped by an approved and inspected butcher shop and it probably cost less than half what the supermarket charges. Very tasty meat to boot. Did the same with a lamb and are on a list for some pork in the spring. You Yanks and your processed and wrapped food.  

Pete


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## D_W (21 Feb 2022)

yeah, pretty much the pig stuff. lunch meats are out unless you want to spend $50 a day on food (they were for me, at least - anything heavily processed seems like a bad idea). 

Most of the lunch meats here that aren't outright trash are about $8 a pound and usually lean. Chicken, fish, eggs, beef...all still in the rotation, but hard to eat enough of to not drop weight too fast.


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## AJB Temple (21 Feb 2022)

Nitrites and nitrates are somewhat misunderstood. Worth a read: The truth about the nitrates in your food

~It shows that most are found in vegetables. 

Re the earlier question on bowel movements, I suspect I am not typical as I have IBS arising from a congenital stomach issue. Constipation would be a relief...However, bowel regularity is relatively easily controlled with things like fybogel should you feel the need. 

People can get very evangelistic about diets, but there is no need. Most of us are smart enough to understand the need for good nutrition, and we know when we are gaining weight. It's then a choice whether to act or not.


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## artie (27 Feb 2022)

Nothing to shout about this week up 100 grams

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg

I actually followed the diet closer than first week.


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## Chris_Pallet (27 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> It looks like we may be going on a keto diet.
> 
> SWMBO is looking into it.
> 
> Anyone here have any experience?




I done it for 6 months,

I'd recommend take it slow and steady,don't go cold turkey immediately just start slowly cutting out carbs.

Easy way to understand it is to think
Your body is a fire
Carbs = burn slow
Fat = burns quick

Like other comments, carbs are cheap.

You'd normally buy a ham baguette
Now you will buy and eat a pack of ham, salad some cheese and still fill hungry lol.

Once you've done a few weeks and your body has adjusted, Your'll notice difference in weight and start to enjoy your 50th vegetable stir fry haha.

Let your tastes and body work it for you rather than a stricked rule book and not enjoy it.

Good luck.......


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## artie (27 Feb 2022)

Chris_Pallet said:


> I done it for 6 months,


So did you reach your target and stop or...?


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## Chris_Pallet (27 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> So did you reach your target and stop or...?



Oh yes most definitely, lost over a stone and just slowly got back into full fat diet lol.

But make us think more and eat better, and now we have a courgette spiriliser in cupboard lol


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## artie (27 Feb 2022)

Chris_Pallet said:


> Oh yes most definitely, lost over a stone and just slowly got back into full fat diet lol.
> 
> But make us think more and eat better, and now we have a courgette spiriliser in cupboard lol


That's great, but you don't keep to keto?


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## Chris_Pallet (27 Feb 2022)

artie said:


> That's great, but you don't keep to keto?


Haha Na I love the carbs too much now lol


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## woodieallen (4 Mar 2022)

artie said:


> Ok here we go then.
> Is it you position that, if I eat 1500 calories of cheese and onion crisps, it will have the exact same effect as if I eat 1500 calories of spinach?


Yes. You missed his key words ....counting calories. Wise up. Keto is a bad thing. Our bodies work best on a balanced diet. Just not a lot.


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## woodieallen (4 Mar 2022)

selectortone said:


> ...Good luck trying to eat 1500 calories of spinach in one sitting though.
> 
> ....



He'd be bloody strong, though


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## mikej460 (4 Mar 2022)

Ag ag ag ag ag


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## artie (5 Mar 2022)

woodieallen said:


> Yes. You missed his key words ....counting calories.


No I didn't, it was those exact words I replied to, with, "It's not that simple" 



woodieallen said:


> Wise up. Keto is a bad thing.


What's with the attitude, I'm not promoting a keto diet, just trying it out, If you look at the replies there seem to be more in favour than against.




woodieallen said:


> Our bodies work best on a balanced diet. Just not a lot.


Define balanced diet?


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## Speedy23 (5 Mar 2022)

Don't worry, keep on with the keto...
Mr. Allen is one of those know-it-alls who doesn't. 

If your keto diet is not going as well as expected, it is usually down to overdoing the carbs. It is amazing how they can mount up, especially if you are still eating fruit or starchy vegetables.

Have you tried using ketone test strips, to see if your body is actually in ketosis or not?

Also be aware that some of the processed cheeses with fruity bits that are now becoming popular contain an amazing amount of sugar....Tesco White Stilton with Ginger and Mango contains 20% sugar!!

So just buckle down, green veg, salads, normal cheese, eggs, butter, bacon, meat.....enough to be going on with until you get things back on an even keel.


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## RobinBHM (5 Mar 2022)

artie said:


> If you look at the replies there seem to be more in favour than against


that’s because the people interested In this thread are keto advocates.

it’s like saying most people who joined UKworkshop are in favour of woodwork as a hobby


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## Doug B (5 Mar 2022)

artie said:


> Define balanced diet?


The NHS gives a good common sense guide with no hidden agenda’s 









Eat well


Information and guidance about eating a healthy, balanced diet.




www.nhs.uk


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## artie (5 Mar 2022)

Doug B said:


> The NHS gives a good common sense guide with no hidden agenda’s


Had a look at that.
All very sensible.
According to their BMI calculator I am a healthy weight. 

But surely it's not as simple as that?
I have skinny arms and legs while carrying excess weight around my middle,


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## AJB Temple (5 Mar 2022)

No, it's not as simple as that. BMI is a blunt instrument at best. You can delve into other measures that take account of various measurements such as waist, neck, biceps and thighs. But really, common sense is enough: if you are fat around the middle then you are unhealthy and need to deal with it with exercise and further dietary improvement. It's not difficult but does take willpower. 

In the last six or seven weeks or so I have continued with my health programme, which though not keto is quite low carb. In this time I have lost a further 5kg, but it included a stomach operation which restricted calorie input severely for about 3 weeks. In my case it's obvious that I need to do more exercise, but that is hampered by post op recovery.


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## artie (6 Mar 2022)

Woop e do

Down 200 grams this morning

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg 
week 4 79 kg.

Since I'm only eating two meals per day I may be over compensating.

Eating a little less at each meal may be the way to go.


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## artie (13 Mar 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg. 
week 5 *78.3 kg*


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## RobinBHM (13 Mar 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> In the last six or seven weeks or so I have continued with my health programme, which though not keto is quite low carb



For decades the message has been ”low fat” diet - but fat is not the big problem, carbs are. The Western diet is full of potato, pasta, white rice, white bread and too much sugar.

Ive changed from white rice to brown - it takes a bit of getting used to, but now I prefer it.

Oats are a great source of dietary fibre - I try and have porridge most days, miles better than toast of cornflakes.


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## gregmcateer (14 Mar 2022)

I've just read 'Spoon Fed' by prof Tim Spector - very interesting and super easy read. But my word have we been told some s**** over the years!


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## artie (20 Mar 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 *77,7 *


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## artie (27 Mar 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 *77.9 *kg

This week I introduced approximately 20 mins per day of anabolic exercise.
I anticipated this would help.
The results differ.


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## Inspector (27 Mar 2022)

artie said:


> Week 1 80 kg
> Week 2 79.1 kg
> week 3 79.2 kg
> week 4 79 kg.
> ...



Go to the bathroom and check again.  Or tell yourself it is muscle mass from the exercise. 

Pete


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## artie (27 Mar 2022)

Inspector said:


> Go to the bathroom and check again.


That thought occurred to me.
I didn't go this morning, It could have made all the difference.




Inspector said:


> Or tell yourself it is muscle mass from the exercise.
> 
> Pete


I wish.


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## artie (3 Apr 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 77.9 kg 
week 8 *77.5* kg

If I could keep that up I'd be happy.


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## artie (10 Apr 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 77.9 kg
week 8 77.5 kg 
week 9 *76.9* kg

Getting quite consistent now.
My waist is now 30mm less than when I started, 980mm down to 950.


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## artie (17 Apr 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 77.9 kg
week 8 77.5 kg
week 9 76.9 kg
week 10 *76.4 kg*

I must say I'm not disappointed with my progress but it has dawned on me that It's not sustainable.
Correct me if my math is wrong.

My waist this morning is 940mm a reduction of 40mm from when I started.
My weight is 76.4, down from 80kg, a reduction of 3.6 kg.

Each 10mm reduction of girth corresponded to roughly 900 grams

Lets set a target of 850mm waist, 

If I calculate properly this would require a weight loss of 8.1 kg, leaving me at 68.3 kg, 150.25 llbs or 10 stone 10

Too light I think for someone 1.88m tall.

So unless someone has a better idea I intend to add some lean protein into my diet next week while continuing to exercise and see what happens.


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## Trainee neophyte (17 Apr 2022)

BMI suggests that 80kg is the "ideal weight" for a height of 1.88. Although BMI is pretty useless for most people, it does give you a vague idea of what to aim for. I am the same height as you, and the last time I weighed under 70kg was when I was about 10 years old. A while ago I spent a summer on a hardcore diet and exercise regime and got down to 82kg; everyone kept asking if I was undergoing chemotherapy. These days I aim for 92 as being my "ideal" weight, but I am still shedding my Christmas excesses, so a bit over that currently. 

Happy easter all - I'll be doing mine next Sunday (Orthodox Christians use a different calendar) - it will involve an entire sheep on a spit, so no dieting allowed. Meat free for the Big Week run up to Easter Sunday, so I may lose some weight this week, but bread is allowed so perhaps not...


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## woodieallen (20 Apr 2022)

I'm 180 cm. I weigh 74kg. Hardly ever changes. I eat what I like, when I like. I prefer grazing throughout the day and smaller meal sizes at meal times. I love chocolate. And beer. Wine with supper. I don't exercise. 

Maybe my genes are the 'right' ones ?


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## niemeyjt (21 Apr 2022)

Now they say (waist x 2) < height is more important than BMI.

Who knows what advice tomorrow will bring?


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## artie (21 Apr 2022)

woodieallen said:


> I'm 180 cm. I weigh 74kg. Hardly ever changes. I eat what I like, when I like. I prefer grazing throughout the day and smaller meal sizes at meal times. I love chocolate. And beer. Wine with supper. I don't exercise.
> 
> Maybe my genes are the 'right' ones ?


I was like that when younger.


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## RobinBHM (21 Apr 2022)

I can only think in inches for waist size

I crept up to 36" waist, now about 34" but need to get to 32"

used to be 30" until I turned 40!!


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## woodieallen (21 Apr 2022)

artie said:


> I was like that when younger.


But I'm over 70 !


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## John Brown (21 Apr 2022)

woodieallen said:


> But I'm over 70 !


You are very lucky. Now go away.


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## woodieallen (22 Apr 2022)

John Brown said:


> You are very lucky. Now go away.


No need to be so rude.


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## artie (24 Apr 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 77.9 kg
week 8 77.5 kg
week 9 76.9 kg
week 10 76.4 kg 
Week 11 *76.1 kg*

I added about 1400 cal of lean meat this week. I guess another 1400 would level my weight off.

I didn't really want it and felt full at times.


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## artie (1 May 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 77.9 kg
week 8 77.5 kg
week 9 76.9 kg
week 10 76.4 kg
Week 11 76.1 kg 
week 12 *76* kg
Left out the lean meat this week.


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## artie (8 May 2022)

Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 77.9 kg
week 8 77.5 kg
week 9 76.9 kg
week 10 76.4 kg
Week 11 76.1 kg
week 12 76 kg 
week 13 *75.6 *kg


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## artie (15 May 2022)

​Week 1 80 kg
Week 2 79.1 kg
week 3 79.2 kg
week 4 79 kg.
week 5 78.3 kg
week 6 77,7 kg
week 7 77.9 kg
week 8 77.5 kg
week 9 76.9 kg
week 10 76.4 kg
Week 11 76.1 kg
week 12 76 kg
week 13 75.6 kg
Week 14. * 75.2. Kg.*

So in thirteen weeks, I've lost 4.8 kg. Weight and 50mm off my waist..
I can also lift three times the weight for three times the reps.

So now I intend to increase my intake to maintain 75-76 kg and continue exercise to reduce waist.

That's the plan anyway.

Edit to add body fat now at 20.4%


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## artie (26 Jun 2022)

Another 6 weeks have passed since I increased my food intake and surprise I have lost another 500g and 10mm off my waist.

Have to up my protein


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## kinverkid (11 Jul 2022)

Artie, I thought you might be interested in this podcast article on YouTube from the people at Zoe. I have no real thoughts or opinions about the keto diet itself, just an interest in what works for others. Well done to your weight control by-the-way. I found it interesting to watch and contrary to some of the comments I found it quite well balanced. Hope you like it.
ZOE Science and Nutrition


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## artie (12 Jul 2022)

Thanks Kinverkid.

There's so many experts it's hard to know what to do.

I'd hesitate to say my diet is full blown keto but definitely low carb and it's working, so I'm happy.


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