# Review : Chisel and Plane Sharpening - Peter Sefton



## ScaredyCat (10 Apr 2017)

*Full disclosure: I was offered this DVD at no cost to myself in exchange for an honest review.*

The Internet is a wonderful place, there's a wealth of information for people wanting to learn a new skill. The problem is, as a beginner, there's no way to tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Bad advice is worse than no advice. The only way to be sure you're getting good advice is to get it from someone who depends on those skills day in and day out. Even better if you can find a Master Craftsman to teach you. 

How lucky we are that we have one then.

I'm new to woodworking and there's a thread I started where I'm trying to establish if I have a badly sharpened chisel, just a bad chisel or a lack of skill. So I was pleased to be offered the chance to watch "Chisel and Plane Sharpening" by Peter Sefton. This is DVD 4 is a series of 5 taking you through timber selection, preparation, grinding, sharpening and hand plane use and selection. I opted for the digital download version because I have a fast Internet connection (it's around 5GB to download) and I was eager to get my hands on it. I think I'd ordinarily opt for the actual DVD because I like having a physical thing rather than a digital one - strange for a software developer perhaps. Cost is £18.99 for the digital download version and £19.99 for the DVD. The video played with no issues using VLC or Quicktime on my Mac and playback works fine under Windows and Linux too. The runtime is 2 hours, 21 minutes (and 55 seconds). 

The production values are great both the video and audio are clear with copious use of close up shots where required. Presentation feels like a one to one lesson rather than being "talked at" and there's a nice bit of history thrown in at various stages. 

The crucial thing about any training video is the imparted knowledge. Peter takes you through the process of sharpening chisels and planes, explains the different types of stones and films that you can use to do so. There's a nice section on testing how sharp your chisel is without having to shave your arm and how to check your plane by looking at the shavings generated. The video is split into seven sections, the first five are background and introductory information, such as how to go about flattening chisel backs. The last two cover the sharpening, chisel first then plane.. There are some interesting snippets of information, for example, I wouldn't have known that some chisel manufacturers put a laquer on the back of their chisels to prevent rust or that you need to remove it before you start. 

I really liked the explanation of the chisel steels what sort of prices you'd pay for the different types and the pros and cons of each with a good explanation of the benefit of flat lands for nice, tidy dovetail work. There's a good emphasis on getting consistency with your sharpening regardless of the system you use and there's no pressure to upgrade to expensive equipment. Indeed in the summary Peter says "All of these systems work, the main thing is to get a system and work with it...".

Unlike some training videos there's no hard sell here. The video isn't Peter trying to sell you stuff from his shop, it's Peter giving you information you need to get on with sharpening your tools and doing the thing you want - woodworking. I came away from the video feeling that I'd learned a lot and actually that Peter would be an interesting chap to have a conversation with. He seems very down to earth.


Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and as some of you are already aware, I went from this:

(sorry for quality of the first picture)







to this:











Which demonstrates that I did actually learn something, the chisel is fine and I lacked the talent. 

If you're new to using hand tools then I'd thoroughly recommend this DVD.


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## AndyT (10 Apr 2017)

Thanks for the well written review - I've added it the reviews Sticky post760633.html#p760633


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## G S Haydon (10 Apr 2017)

Peter comes across brilliantly and as you point out has been at the sharp end of woodworking at many levels. Although I've not seen it I'd imagine it would be a great starting point for a beginner.


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## PalmRoyale (10 Apr 2017)

ScaredyCat":uwbko2wv said:


> with a good explanation of the benefit of flat lands for nice, tidy dovetail work.



I swear you Brits and Americans are the most dovetail obsessed people on the planet.


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## shed9 (10 Apr 2017)

PalmRoyale":zf9f1zln said:


> I swear you Brits and Americans are the most dovetail obsessed people on the planet.



:roll: I bet you get invited to all the best parties...


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## D_W (10 Apr 2017)

PalmRoyale":2ha61yeb said:


> ScaredyCat":2ha61yeb said:
> 
> 
> > with a good explanation of the benefit of flat lands for nice, tidy dovetail work.
> ...



Some of us like to cover them up with a moulding. But they are nice as a joint that will hold well on a case without the need to purchase anything other than wood and glue.


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## bugbear (11 Apr 2017)

ScaredyCat":3cbybatc said:


> Which demonstrates that I did actually learn something, the chisel is fine and I lacked the talent.



Don't knock yourself.

I'd say you lacked _knowledge_ rather than talent, and a video gave you knowledge.

(I don't know of a video than can give talent.  )

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2017)

"There are some interesting snippets of information, for example, I wouldn't have known that some chisel manufacturers put a laquer on the back of their chisels to prevent rust or that you need to remove it before you start." - ScaredyCat

Off tack a little, but how many people think to take the lacquer off hardpoint saws? The Stanley ones and the finer toothed ones benefit greatly from having it removed.


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## bugbear (11 Apr 2017)

phil.p":1xhdqo4b said:


> "There are some interesting snippets of information, for example, I wouldn't have known that some chisel manufacturers put a laquer on the back of their chisels to prevent rust or that you need to remove it before you start." - ScaredyCat
> 
> Off tack a little, but how many people think to take the lacquer off hardpoint saws? The Stanley ones and the finer toothed ones benefit greatly from having it removed.



I've seen site chippies turn up with 5-packs of hardpoint saws (which are often on offer from tool suppliers). They don't bother removing the lacquer.  

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2017)

I don't suppose it would make too much difference to site chippies, but it certainly does if you're doing reasonably tidy, accurate work. Less effort, as well.


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## Peter Sefton (11 Apr 2017)

ScaredyCat":20aozmvv said:


> *Full disclosure: I was offered this DVD at no cost to myself in exchange for an honest review.*
> 
> The Internet is a wonderful place, there's a wealth of information for people wanting to learn a new skill. The problem is, as a beginner, there's no way to tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Bad advice is worse than no advice. The only way to be sure you're getting good advice is to get it from someone who depends on those skills day in and day out. Even better if you can find a Master Craftsman to teach you.
> 
> ...



Hi Scaredycat

Thanks for the comprehensive review, the section in the video showing ways of testing how sharp a cutting edge is - something I feel is important until woodworkers get a natural feel for how sharp tools can be. Using blunt tools is a thankless task  

Cheers Peter


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## transatlantic (11 Apr 2017)

So from what I understand, the DVD goes through many different systems for sharpening, so what did you use to get those results? and what do you think was gained from the video as opposed to someone using the sharpening system without the aid of the video?


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## D_W (11 Apr 2017)

When I look at the first picture, I still see a chisel that could be viably sharp. We all have to do what we need to do to get the results we want, and the proof is in the using at the bench, so if the second works a lot better, it's an improvement.


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## Peter Sefton (11 Apr 2017)

phil.p":1rpmmcez said:


> "There are some interesting snippets of information, for example, I wouldn't have known that some chisel manufacturers put a laquer on the back of their chisels to prevent rust or that you need to remove it before you start." - ScaredyCat
> 
> Off tack a little, but how many people think to take the lacquer off hardpoint saws? The Stanley ones and the finer toothed ones benefit greatly from having it removed.




We always take the lacquer of the quality dovetail and tenon saws we see in the workshop.

I have never done it to a Jack type handsaw for site work, in-fact I almost feel they benefit from the extra rust protection, and as the writing wears off it's a crude indication of the saws sharpness level before being downgraded to cutting plasterboard or plastic plumbers pipe. I have not used the hardpoint back saws for years so can't comment on those. 

Cheers Peter


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## ScaredyCat (11 Jan 2018)

Sorry I didn't see this until just now. 



transatlantic":7qko23ra said:


> So from what I understand, the DVD goes through many different systems for sharpening, so what did you use to get those results? and what do you think was gained from the video as opposed to someone using the sharpening system without the aid of the video?



I used an Eclipse style guide:






and some Bearmoo sharpening stones. 










I have all of these things before I saw Peter's DVD which is why I used them. I'm not convinced by the Bearmoo stones it seems rather easy to get cross contamination. I'll look at the scary sharpening stuff at a later date. I found the Eclipse/Delta guide very difficult to set right until I followed the advice to make a simple board to use for lining up.

What did I gain? Pretty much everything I needed. I had no technique and no real idea what I was doing. As I said initially you can watch a lot of Youtube videos* of people showing you how to do something, but you'll only find out how good they are at it through your own trial and error. That's not entirely helpful. If you can start from a position of "I know that this person makes their livelihood from woodworking and has been doing, and teaching, for a very long time." you can trust that the information is accurate to start with. I've never really worked with my hands. Well, obviously I use my hands but none of this real _hand working_. I develop software so typing is about as handy as I get. So without the video I might have eventually got the information I needed, got to the state I needed or just made do. With it, I know what I'm supposed to be doing, where I need to be at the end and how to get there - and from a trusted source. Whilst I got a copy for free, under £20 for guaranteed accurate information is good in my book. I've spent more than that on useless junk before 


*No disrespect intended, there are some fine craftsmen and women with on Youtube.


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## Jacob (11 Jan 2018)

ScaredyCat":1bdnljro said:


> ......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So if you've learned to make a very tidy looking bevel but there's nothing in your photos to show that the tidy one is any sharper. OK bevel in the first one looks as though it might be more than 30º, which isn't good, but is easily remediable without necessarily being more cosmetic! Not lack of talent just lack of practice. There's more to sharpening than just looking neat and tidy.
Given equal sharpness at the edge the first one will cut better as it has a bit of polish on the bevel.


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2018)

Jacob

The cutting edge was improved and shown in the most important way, the quality of the cut as shown on page four of the original post, Cut and pasted below although the pictures shows it off better.

bridger wrote:
OP- did upping your sharpening game solve the fuzzy sapelle problem?


I think the answer is a resounding yes (any dodginess is due to lack of talent, not the tool) 

If you look back at the original post you may notice the biggest improvement on the chisel is on it's back, not the bevel. Good sharpening is the combination of both faces coming together to produce a sharp edge and the chisel will only be as good as the poorer element. You have soooo much to learn, would you like free copy :roll: 

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (11 Jan 2018)

Thanks for the offer but no, I really have no problem sharpening at all!
What page 4?
I agree that the burr needs taking off the face, plus a tiny bit of hone/polish both sides as per his first pic, but not second, which looks decidedly un polished.
Just having a neat bevel doesn't make a sharp chisel


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jan 2018)

Peter Sefton":2dmlmivb said:


> If you look back at the original post you may notice the biggest improvement on the chisel is on it's back ...



The back???? :lol:


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## Jacob (11 Jan 2018)

phil.p":hjw3bh08 said:


> Peter Sefton":hjw3bh08 said:
> 
> 
> > If you look back at the original post you may notice the biggest improvement on the chisel is on it's back ...
> ...


He means the face :lol:


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2018)

Jacob":16oq6gyx said:


> Thanks for the offer but no, I really have no problem sharpening at all!
> What page 4?
> I agree that the burr needs taking off the face, plus a tiny bit of hone/polish both sides as per his first pic, but not second, which looks decidedly un polished.
> Just having a neat bevel doesn't make a sharp chisel




Take a gander over the original post and look at page four to see the difference in the cut quality.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/chis ... 04479.html

Cheers Peter


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2018)

Jacob":2mdg9npx said:


> phil.p":2mdg9npx said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Sefton":2mdg9npx said:
> ...



These links might help you remember the parts of the chisel 

http://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=745

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4099/ ... ge-chisels

You must be wasting lots of your time if you are flattening the fronts of your chisels.

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (11 Jan 2018)

Mine have a a back and a face. Flat = face, back = bevel.
So do you call the bevel side the 'front'? Never heard that being used myself.

ps I think your usage is American - so those who worship at the shrine of LV or LN pick it up from them. 
UK usage more logically is flat = face (see Marples ad someone posted a bit back) but you get both.

Hope that helps.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jan 2018)

50 years ago at school the flat side was the back - I very much doubt anyone had heard of LV or LN then, or had a clue what an American would call it.


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2018)

phil.p":14t2j7zt said:


> 50 years ago at school the flat side was the back - I very much doubt anyone had heard of LV or LN then, or had a clue what an American would call it.




Agreed, thus the saying backing off the chisel the same applies to a plane blade which can have a back bevel....

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (11 Jan 2018)

post1195667.html?hilit=marples%20advert#p1195667


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## nabs (12 Jan 2018)

here we go again! it is pretty obvious that the reason for the continuos disagreement on terminology is that it is never been used consistently - it doesn't matter how many references are dug up, old or new, the matter will never be decided. I call the flat bit the face, except when I get muddled up and call it the back. In case that helps


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## Just4Fun (12 Jan 2018)

Can I follow up the issue of how polished relates to sharp? Specifically, does a more polished result indicate a sharper chisel?
The reason I ask is that I have tried a 3000/8000 Bearmoo sharpening stone the same as shown above, with disappointing results. I usually sharpen with wet & dry (because it is what I have, so let's not get into a debate about that) finishing on a leather strop with Autosol. The result is a polished chisel that is pretty sharp. I tried the stone to see if I could get a better result. The chisel was noticably more dull after the 8000 stone than after 2000 or 3000 wet & dry, and didn't improve much when I stropped it. It didn't feel any better in use than when I use wet & dry, and I have abandoned the stone because of this.


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Jan 2018)

Just4Fun":3kfw2q0s said:


> Can I follow up the issue of how polished relates to sharp? Specifically, does a more polished result indicate a sharper chisel?
> The reason I ask is that I have tried a 3000/8000 Bearmoo sharpening stone the same as shown above, with disappointing results. I usually sharpen with wet & dry (because it is what I have, so let's not get into a debate about that) finishing on a leather strop with Autosol. The result is a polished chisel that is pretty sharp. I tried the stone to see if I could get a better result. The chisel was noticably more dull after the 8000 stone than after 2000 or 3000 wet & dry, and didn't improve much when I stropped it. It didn't feel any better in use than when I use wet & dry, and I have abandoned the stone because of this.



Perhaps 'scratch-free' or 'much smaller scratch pattern' might be a more accurate term than 'polished'; 'smooth' rather than 'shiny'; I think the word is used as a sort of shorthand. 

For a really good cutting edge, you want two faces meeting at a line (the edge itsef) both faces being as free of blemishes and scratches as you can achieve. If the back of a chisel or plane iron were left with the manufacturer's grinding marks, and the bevel made as smooth as possible, the result would be a ragged edge. Similarly, if the tool were just rough honed, the edge would still be ragged, to a degree. In that state, it could well be sharp enough for rough work like heavy chiselling with a big mallet, or rough jack planing, but for finer work, something better is desirable. Hence 'polishing' out the scratch pattern from the honing stone (which does the bulk of the metal removal to re-establish the cutting edge shape and geometry during a honing session) to smooth the cutting edge. Only the very edge needs 'polishing' in this way, on both the bevel and the back, just to get as near to smoothness right at the edge as you need.

I'm not suggesting that this is the 'right' way, but what works for me is as follows. Once a bevel is established by grinding, I hone the edge on a fine India oilstone until I can feel a burr right across the back at the edge, but don't 'back off'. Then transfer to a Welsh slate stone, and holding the tool a degree or so higher than I did on the India, draw the edge back several times, lifting off on the forward stroke. That polishes the very edge on the bevel side. Then flip the tool over, place it dead flat on the slate, and draw back, repeating two or three times, with just a little finger pressure at the cutting edge end. Sometimes, I need to flip from bevel to back three or four times to break off the wire edge. That gives me edges that are shaped on the India, and refined right AT the edge on both bevel and back on the slate, without need for stropping. I can then repeat the hone-and -polish sequence several times before needing a touch on the grinder.

The same principle will work with just about any sharpening medium - a very fine wet-and-dry will substitute for a slate stone, and whatever you have that works for the India.

Sometimes there's a bit of suck-it-and-see with sharpening media. You may need to fiddle about to find a particular combination of abrasives and minor modifications of technique until you get something that works consistently for you, but the basic idea is gross removal of metal by grinding the whole bevel, then establishing an edge by honing metal away, then polishing just the very edge for maximum sharpness.

It might be worth trying the 'draw back with a little pressure, lift off to return' trick with the 8000 stone, holding the tool at a slightly higher angle than on the coarser stones. It may work, it may not; but nothing lost for the sake of a bit of experimentation.


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## Chris152 (12 Jan 2018)

Thanks for the review, ScaredyCat. I have three of the other videos in Peter's series that I'm gradually working my way through - I go back to chapters that I've watched before quite often as things crop up and I realise I didn't get it first time around. I've found them to be a great help.


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## xy mosian (12 Jan 2018)

ScaredyCat":30cyg09z said:


> I found the Eclipse/Delta guide very difficult to set right until I followed the advice to make a simple board to use for lining up.



I used to have such a board but it was never to hand when I needed it. I think, from memory, that my guide is likely to be a Draper, used in exactly the same way. As for setting the blade protrusion, 50mm for the 25 degree angle just happens to be the width of most of my chip breakers. The 38mm for 30 degrees is marked as a scribed line through a black felt tip pen mark on the back of the chip breaker. I always need to remove the breaker for sharpening so the setting gauge is always to hand.

Good review by the way. It seems as if Peter has got the videos right, especially the close ups exactly where you would like them. I don't like it when some tutor refers to a point of detail without a really allowing close inspection.
xy


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## Jacob (12 Jan 2018)

Just4Fun":195qocvo said:


> Can I follow up the issue of how polished relates to sharp? Specifically, does a more polished result indicate a sharper chisel?
> The reason I ask is that I have tried a 3000/8000 Bearmoo sharpening stone the same as shown above, with disappointing results. I usually sharpen with wet & dry (because it is what I have, so let's not get into a debate about that) finishing on a leather strop with Autosol. The result is a polished chisel that is pretty sharp. I tried the stone to see if I could get a better result. The chisel was noticably more dull after the 8000 stone than after 2000 or 3000 wet & dry, and didn't improve much when I stropped it. It didn't feel any better in use than when I use wet & dry, and I have abandoned the stone because of this.


The point of stropping is not to _sharpen_, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction. Depends what you are doing but it can be very noticeable - similar to candle waxing a plane sole. It _feels_ sharper even though polish and candle wax clearly don't affect the edge itself.
It isn't part of the modern sharpening creed (where _faces_ have to be called _backs_ :lol: ) so it never gets a mention amongst the true believers, but is true nevertheless. That's how it often is with religions.


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## Peter Sefton (12 Jan 2018)

Stropping certainly plays a part in my sharpening routine and is covered in at least four different forms in the video. Hand stropping, hard leather block and soft leather along with timber and Autosol. 
I cover how I feel it improves the cutting edge (sharpens) or just removes the wire edge and how it helps if the chisels are not flat from a poor sharpening regime or rounded stones. 

Cheers Peter


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## Peter Sefton (12 Jan 2018)

xy mosian":269jjwwl said:


> ScaredyCat":269jjwwl said:
> 
> 
> > I found the Eclipse/Delta guide very difficult to set right until I followed the advice to make a simple board to use for lining up.
> ...



I can't take credit for the high quality of the video filming work, that is down to Artisan Media who are very professional. I have tried some workshop filming work but this is very poor by Artisans standards. 

We filmed the second series back in August and they are almost finished editing the first three bandsaw videos and only on the first pass of the other machines. I couldn't possibly devote that amount of time to the videos, or even know how to cut and balance them so well. But I guess thats why we all have our own professions. 

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (12 Jan 2018)

Peter Sefton":1cj58q2n said:


> Stropping certainly plays a part in my sharpening routine and is covered in at least four different forms in the video. Hand stropping, hard leather block and soft leather along with timber and Autosol.
> I cover how I feel it improves the cutting edge (sharpens) or just removes the wire edge and how it helps if the chisels are not flat from a poor sharpening regime or rounded stones.
> 
> Cheers Peter


Part of my sharpening routine too but pure _stropping_ works by polishing, as per my post above, but the dividing line between stropping and fine abrasive _sharpening_ isn't clear, unlike the division between say sharpening a plane blade and waxing the plane sole.


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## xy mosian (12 Jan 2018)

Peter Sefton":39fs4zjk said:


> I can't take credit for the high quality of the video filming work, that is down to Artisan Media who are very professional. I have tried some workshop filming work but this is very poor by Artisans standards.
> 
> We filmed the second series back in August and they are almost finished editing the first three bandsaw videos and only on the first pass of the other machines. I couldn't possibly devote that amount of time to the videos, or even know how to cut and balance them so well. But I guess thats why we all have our own professions.
> 
> Cheers Peter



Or to put it another way "Each to his own trade." Good choice of company Peter!
xy


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## bugbear (12 Jan 2018)

Jacob":2a11pn7r said:


> The point of stropping is not to _sharpen_, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction.


Do please define "polish" and what it _actually does_ to the metal Jacob. Simple English will be fine. Nothing airy fairy for a _practical man_ such as yourself.

BugBear


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## MikeG. (12 Jan 2018)

bugbear":xhea53al said:


> Jacob":xhea53al said:
> 
> 
> > The point of stropping is not to _sharpen_, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction.
> ...



Your tireless pursuit of Jacob is tiresome.


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## woodbrains (13 Jan 2018)

MikeG.":3riv7swu said:


> bugbear":3riv7swu said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3riv7swu said:
> ...



Hello,

Actually it is not; Jacob's continuous tripe however, is. Clearly, stropping _is_ sharpening. An abrasive is used to remove metal, evidenced by the black deposits (steel particles) on the strop, after a few strokes of the tool. The finer the abrasive used on the strop, the higher the polish, which will reduce friction in the tool use. It is not remotely like waxing a plane sole. But eventually Jacob will come to realise that people who sharpen to fine levels are doing it for good reasons, and it has nothing to do with modern fads. At some point Jacob will be telling us that stropping has always been part of the sharpening process, and he has always said so and the rest of us are finally 'getting it'.

Mike.


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## Peter Sefton (13 Jan 2018)

I agree with woodbrains that stropping when done with a compound is sharpening. 

I am not sure how you would define stropping in your hand and if someone wishes to try and grade the abrasive effect of skin  
I only use hand stropping if the wire edge is very fine, the action will fatigue the wire off by bending it back and forth, the wire edge element is often left on the palm as a thin fuse wire. 

Cheers Peter


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## woodbrains (13 Jan 2018)

Peter Sefton":a8hkz2m0 said:


> I agree with woodbrains that stropping when done with a compound is sharpening.
> 
> I am not sure how you would define stropping in your hand and if someone wishes to try and grade the abrasive effect of skin
> I only use hand stropping if the wire edge is very fine, the action will fatigue the wire off by bending it back and forth, the wire edge element is often left on the palm as a thin fuse wire.
> ...



Hello,

Yes, I've said so in other threads; removing the wire edge is NOT stropping as such. There is a distinct difference between abrading away the metal on a charged strop, to gain a finer edge, than using an uncharged strop, or bit of softwood, or palm to break the wire edge away. The fact that some people call removing the wire edge 'stropping' I feel is a misnomer. As long as we know what we are doing, it doesn't matter to me what people call their method of removing the wire edge.

Stropping shaving razors on plain leather is different again, and razor sharpeners are a whole different breed of pedants!

Mike.


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## Jacob (13 Jan 2018)

bugbear":2rpwk4lq said:


> Jacob":2rpwk4lq said:
> 
> 
> > The point of stropping is not to _sharpen_, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction.
> ...


When "polished" things look kinda "shiny". Hope that helps.


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## Dangermouse 2nd (13 Jan 2018)

my chisels and plane blades are ultra sharp and cut like a laser through paper and I'm not going to tell you how I do it , so there !


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## Jacob (13 Jan 2018)

Dangermouse 2nd":3g2hlsv7 said:


> my chisels and plane blades are ultra sharp and cut like a laser through paper and I'm not going to tell you how I do it , so there !


I wish I'd never bothered myself. They just can't get it :lol:


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## nabs (13 Jan 2018)

I have no idea what magical process occurs but my chisels are sharper after I have stropped them on a bit of leather with buffing compound on it. They are shiner too!


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## David C (13 Jan 2018)

Stropping on the hand was a technique taught to me 45 years ago.

It was all part of the oilstone ritual. I refer to coarse and fine India stones.

The stropping just bent the wire edge back and forwards until it hopefully fell off.

If it did not, running the edge through some end grain might work.

The resulting jagged edge was then refined on a dressed strop.

I am glad to have moved on a bit and now use 800g & 10,000g Japanese Waterstones. No Strop required!
Best wishes,
David Charlesworth P S There is some sharpening on my You Tube channel


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## Jacob (13 Jan 2018)

David C":1aaa1269 said:


> Stropping on the hand was a technique taught to me 45 years ago.
> 
> It was all part of the oilstone ritual. I refer to coarse and fine India stones.
> 
> ...


Funny how so many people don't get it.
The main point of stropping by hand (or on leather etc) is to impart a bit of polish. But yes it will remove a fine wire edge if there is one - these things merge into one another. 
Stropping a cut throat razor is different again - it will polish but will also straighten the edge. A cut-throat has a very fine edge and on Desperate Dans this will get deformed, stropping being a remedy.


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## AES (16 Jan 2018)

I only just found this thread, I don't often visit the hand tools section.

So first off thanks to Scaredy Cat for a very well written and clear review.

As I really know little about sharpening chisels and planes I shall certainly investigate the DVD.

As for all the rest of this thread, it reminds me of all the other sharpening threads I've glanced through - I don't really understand a lot of the points being so vigorously made, and so much "vigour" is put into these "discussions" that I'm actually glad I don't know! For me ignorance certainly IS bliss in this case  

If said DVD offers me a choice of 4 "systematic" sharpening methods which should all work because it's presented by an experienced wood worker who earns his daily bread from wood and teaching, then that's all I need to know.

(I shall NOT be joining any other sharpening "debates", even after I've finally "mastered" tool sharpening to my own satisfaction).

AES


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## D_W (17 Jan 2018)

Jacob":zxdvd6r3 said:


> David C":zxdvd6r3 said:
> 
> 
> > Stropping on the hand was a technique taught to me 45 years ago.
> ...



Jacob, I don't think it's that simple (imparting polish), but rather depends on the finish stone. If you're finishing with a trans ark or a fine charnley, then you're still removing the last bit of foil at the edge. Polishing is minimal and requires something like a genuine linen. I can show you a tool edge off of stones that level of fineness at 150x, and you'll see nearly no polishing from bare leather, but you'll see what initially appears to be a slightly less regular edge than prior to stropping because the weak bits on the edge have been removed. 

This is the reason that we follow a stone with a linen when we set a razor, and the reason that the linen is used at regular intervals before returning to a stone (which shouldn't be required more than once every 200 shaves). 

At lower grits, like fine india or something of that sort - palm stropping is entirely for manipulation of the wire edge and has no polishing effect. Perhaps if one oiled their palm and sprinkled chromium oxide on it, something might happen, but the unintended green spots on projects would be pretty annoying. 

The only thing off here is that David, unfortunately (or not, depending on who you're talking to) went from a coarse vitrified oilstone to waterstones, and ultimately a more complete progression of oilstones would be faster than the waterstones (if not during actual sharpening, simply due to the fact that you don't have to faff around with flattening them or cleaning them. Additional lubricant as a matter of sharpening practice keeps the stone clean). 

Plus, there's no nonsense of wiping irons and chisels with oily rags - there will be enough left on them after sharpening to keep them from rusting.

Once I got a microscope, I was quite surprised to see just how little bare leather, bare jasper, etc do. And even in linens, there's wide disparity. Some are treated to make them finer cutting and probably more resistant to contaminating bits, and some are relatively abrasive and can complete the work of a subpar stone on a razor.


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## Jacob (17 Jan 2018)

D_W":o7dcycpt said:


> ......
> Once I got a microscope, I was quite surprised to see just how little bare leather, bare jasper, etc do. And even in linens, there's wide disparity. Some are treated to make them finer cutting and probably more resistant to contaminating bits, and some are relatively abrasive and can complete the work of a subpar stone on a razor.


It doesn't have to do much if all it's doing is imparting a bit of polish. It just needs to take off the sharp edges of the grinding scratches to reduce friction.


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## CStanford (17 Jan 2018)

One can't help but wonder how Medieval European and English ecclesiastical carvers, joiners, etc. ever got along. They managed to produce stunning work, that's for sure.


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## D_W (17 Jan 2018)

Not sure, but I'd be willing to bet that they had people with O.D.D. come around from time to time to tell them that they were debating or discussing the wrong things, and that someone else could've done better than them four centuries prior.


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## CStanford (17 Jan 2018)

Yeah, maybe David. Can't pick and choose history I guess, leaving out the parts that might not fit a narrative.


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## shed9 (17 Jan 2018)

Jacob":23ytbsyb said:


> The point of stropping is not to _sharpen_, but to polish


What is the difference in the context of sharpening chisel and plane blades other than abrasive grit size :?: Surely this is just semantics at this juncture. I would have thought stropping with leather and using stones with high grit values are pretty much the same thing these days. 

You effectively move through the grits to (1) grind, (2) sharpen and (3) hone although the end result is ultimately about sharpening, hence why you concentrate on certain elements of these three aspects depending on how often you do them in descending order (after initial sharpening of course).


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## Peter Sefton (17 Jan 2018)

I believe stropping is sharpening the blade and improves the cutting edge, it also polishes the steel if a fine cutting compound is used, or scratches it if it's a course abrasive is let loose on the cutting edge. Stropping can also round and ruin the edge if not done correctly, as will poor sharpening in the wrong hands.

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (17 Jan 2018)

Peter Sefton":2zpkcjqv said:


> I believe stropping is sharpening the blade and improves the cutting edge, ...


effectively _sharpening the blade_ yes but not necessarily improving the actual cutting edge. 
Compare it to polishing the sole of a plane - it can appear to very effectively _improve the action of the plane as if magically sharpened_ but without having any effect on the cutting edge at all.
Similar effect with other edge tools but the obvious disconnection less clear cut.


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## AES (17 Jan 2018)

Blimey! Am I one of those who "doesn't get it"?

Yup! Completely above & beyond me I'm afraid.

AES


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## Peter Sefton (17 Jan 2018)

Jacob":f8m9b33n said:


> Peter Sefton":f8m9b33n said:
> 
> 
> > I believe stropping is sharpening the blade and improves the cutting edge, ...
> ...



When teaching sharpening I will often show students how you can improve a blade from not cutting hair to razor sharp cutting hair in two or three seconds on a strop, I says it's sharper-you may say I waxed the sole of my plane, what are you on about?

I know we cut timber not hair but it's a teaching aid.

Cheers Peter


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## CStanford (17 Jan 2018)

Assuming it has been charged it's probably functioning as a high-grit finishing stone. If not charged, then the strop is straightening the edge which will indeed improve performance, though for only a short period of time on wood.

It is important to note that a foil edge, ragged burr, whatever you want to call it, can and will cut hair. The true test would be so see if it would cut the forearm hair on a swarthy Italian. Keep one handy in the shop.


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## Peter Sefton (17 Jan 2018)

CStanford":39k3vbev said:


> The true test would be so see if it would cut the forearm hair on a swarthy Italian. Keep one handy in the shop.



That just sounds wrong on so many levels...


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## CStanford (17 Jan 2018)




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## Jacob (17 Jan 2018)

Peter Sefton":378dlel7 said:


> Jacob":378dlel7 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Sefton":378dlel7 said:
> ...


Won't help with shaving hairy Italians.
I'm on about when the cutting action involves friction - such as when belting a mortice chisel into a piece of wood. A bit of low friction polish on the bevel + face will let it go further - and will allow it to be removed more easily. 
Or any occasion when an edge is being forced forwards between the workpiece and the resultant shaving. The deeper the cut the more the friction. 
A polished bevel axe will cut better than sharp axe with a rough ground bevel even if it has a super shiny micro bevel.
It's pretty obvious. I suppose carvers would be most likely to see the benefit of a shiny bevel.
Unfortunately it happens to have been omitted from the rigid codes religiously followed by modern sharpeners - so the idea is anathema - but I don't care!


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## bugbear (17 Jan 2018)

Jacob":21n6clmc said:


> Unfortunately it happens to have been omitted from the rigid codes religiously followed by modern sharpeners - so the idea is anathema - but I don't care!


What - the _frantic polishing_ you spoke of so derisively? Make your mind up. :roll: 

BugBear


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## Jacob (17 Jan 2018)

bugbear":pn9ddqre said:


> Jacob":pn9ddqre said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately it happens to have been omitted from the rigid codes religiously followed by modern sharpeners - so the idea is anathema - but I don't care!
> ...


No - the very minimal polishing you get with stropping. 
But you won't get it BB so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Go and put the telly on. :lol:


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## D_W (18 Jan 2018)

Jacob":1khek1u2 said:


> Unfortunately it happens to have been omitted from the rigid codes religiously followed by modern sharpeners - so the idea is anathema - but I don't care!



Well, one would generally like to sharpen carving tools as carving tools should be sharpened, and chisels otherwise. I do the "modern" thing on chisels, I guess, though lots of the old retired chisels that I've gotten have been sharpened that way (long primary and a short hand honed secondary).


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