# Am I the only person depressed by the number of comments with gender or racial stereotypes in them?



## Peterm1000 (11 May 2021)

I wonder... am I alone in feeling there are too many comments that make generalisations about a particular group's ethnicity or gender and the forum mods should take stronger action? In the past 24 hours on the joke thread there's been a "joke" suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job and that black people speak a certain way and there have been plenty of others that have been removed. Those kind of comments are less prevalent elsewhere in the forum, but they do exist enough that I think if I were a black, female woodworker I might think this forum is not for me.


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I wonder... am I alone in feeling there are too many comments that make generalisations about a particular group's ethnicity or gender and the forum mods should take stronger action? In the past 24 hours on the joke thread there's been a "joke" suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job and that black people speak a certain way and there have been plenty of others that have been removed. Those kind of comments are less prevalent elsewhere in the forum, but they do exist enough that I think if I were a black, female woodworker I might think this forum is not for me.


You could be right. I stopped looking at the "jokes" - had a go but they are generally not very funny at all.


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## danst96 (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> You could be right. I stopped looking at the "jokes" - had a go but they are generally not very funny at all.


+1 i don't read the jokes section at all. Maybe my humor is different.


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## NickDReed (11 May 2021)

Well now I *HAVE* to look at the joke thread!!


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## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2021)

In general, most 'jokes' are pretty tame these days. Some of the 'jokes' rattling around thirty and forty years ago would be regarded as beyond the pale these days.

Where do you draw the line? Stereotypes about different people are one of the common themes of humour. Do we ban southerners from making snarky remarks about northerners (and vice versa)? Mancs and Scousers? Townies and country people? Aussies and Kiwis?

Most of us have a fair idea when a joke stops being funny and starts being downright offensive, and we can ignore and move on. It's easy enough to not read the joke thread, and as the OP says, there doesn't seem to be a spill-over into the woodworking part of the forum, especially since the political discussions have now gone behind a screen, thank goodness.

Storm in a teacup, I reckon.


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## Fitzroy (11 May 2021)

I avoid most threads that are not woodworking related, on the threads I frequent I've not picked up on this issue. I fully support strong moderation around language that puts people down based on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or age.


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## artie (11 May 2021)

There's a clue in the title. "Joke thread"

Not to be taken seriously..

BTW I can't recall ever viewing it 

I discovered years there are only two jokes,


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## Rorschach (11 May 2021)

I don't look at the Joke thread, I suspect it's all boomer humour.


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## D_W (11 May 2021)

I just read most of it. It looks pretty tame to me.


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## Peterm1000 (11 May 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> In general, most 'jokes' are pretty tame these days. Some of the 'jokes' rattling around thirty and forty years ago would be regarded as beyond the pale these days.
> 
> Where do you draw the line? Stereotypes about different people are one of the common themes of humour. Do we ban southerners from making snarky remarks about northerners (and vice versa)? Mancs and Scousers? Townies and country people? Aussies and Kiwis?
> 
> ...



I've lived all over the country and in various countries in the world. People do now seem to be better travelled and more exposed to other cultures than they were 30 or 40 years ago. In my experience, those regional stereotypes don't hold true. I think it's a good thing some of those very offensive comments from 30 or 40 years ago have gone to the grave.

I suspect it's easier to ignore and move on if you, your family or friends aren't the butt of the joke.

The language is mostly in the joke forum, but it's not only there. The Brexit and Covid threads have also lead to various derogatory comments being made about the people of other countries - less about the colour of their skin, but about their stereotypical national characteristics.


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## Peterm1000 (11 May 2021)

D_W said:


> I just read most of it. It looks pretty tame to me.


It is now - because the mods do a very good job of removing the truly offensive content. But I'm depressed to see it keep coming back because it tells me this community has a significant number of people who think that jokes or generalisations based on the colour of someone's skin or they country they live in are OK.


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## thetyreman (11 May 2021)

the less politically correct and offensive, the more I like it, we are being controlled by 'woke' people, it really annoys me how easily people are offended thesedays, it's also getting worse and making me be more offensive deliberately with jokes especially.


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## Linus (11 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I wonder... am I alone in feeling there are too many comments that make generalisations about a particular group's ethnicity or gender and the forum mods should take stronger action? In the past 24 hours on the joke thread there's been a "joke" suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job and that black people speak a certain way and there have been plenty of others that have been removed. Those kind of comments are less prevalent elsewhere in the forum, but they do exist enough that I think if I were a black, female woodworker I might think this forum is not for me.


I would probably say yes.


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## Gordon Tarling (11 May 2021)

Yes, I saw the joke to which I think you refer and was slightly taken aback that it had even been posted. Perhaps it hadn't been seen by the mods at that time? Agreed 100% that there should be no place for humour like that to be posted here in this day and age.

Gordon


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

thetyreman said:


> the less politically correct and offensive, the more I like it, we are being controlled by 'woke' people, it really annoys me how easily people are offended thesedays, it's also getting worse and making me be more offensive deliberately with jokes especially.


It's not about being personally offended oneself it's about consideration for other people who genuinely can be hurt and/or offended. You know the what and whom, as well as I do. Yes people are waking up and about time too!


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## D_W (11 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> It is now - because the mods do a very good job of removing the truly offensive content. But I'm depressed to see it keep coming back because it tells me this community has a significant number of people who think that jokes or generalisations based on the colour of someone's skin or they country they live in are OK.



I missed the bad stuff. I guess we all react different ways and I suppose it also hinges on depressed. I've had depression before, but jokes don't trigger it. I'd probably move on if it irritated me, but that's not to say that certain jokes wouldn't. I belong to an agricultural forum in the US (we sold our farm this year, all of us long away from it). It's turned into a racist closed forum, and all I can muster up is going there once in a while and posting "I can't stick around here with the racist garbage...too bad". 

Guess what I'm saying is, I moved on from it. After a couple of bouts of mid-life depression, I realized that there's a fairly large swath of the "real world" that I don't need to be exposed to, which includes liars and bigots.


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## Garno (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's not about being personally offended oneself it's about consideration for other people who genuinely can be hurt and/or offended. You know the what and whom, as well as I do. Yes people are waking up and about time too!



Jacob Jacob Jacob

Over the last few years I recall many posts from yourself that showed zero consideration for other peoples feelings.

I know that I have also contributed my share of suchlike posts but when it has become apparent that I have hurt peoples feelings I have usually ended up apologising (not on every post but the majority) and not wait for a ban like some do.

The consideration bat works both ways, people constantly ramming "WOKE" agendas down my throat IS something I find highly offensive yet those who endorse them deem it as being OK to do. It really is not OK to do but the "WOKE" brigade are not one bit concerned that they are being all righteous condescending racist bigots. 

I take offence at people who try to belittle our wonderful nation, I think it is hurtful when people try to rewrite the history of this fantastic country, I abhor racism of any kind yet find that due to "WOKISM" I have to listen daily to the so called white privilege in this country. I have the EXACT same entitlements in this FREE country of ours that any other legal person has be they white green purple black brown or yellow and it is for that very reason I feel highly offended when the "WOKE" brigade start demanding that I apologise for things that happened hundreds of years ago. 

The "WOKISM" is fuelling racism by their actions it may not be intentional but does not mean it is not happening, who will they blame when the powder keg finally blows up?. Hopefully Jacob you are right and people do actually start to wake up and see the harm that is being done with the stupid demands. Just look at all of the so called sexes There are many different gender identities, including male, female, transgender, gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender, and all, none or a combination of these, I would hate to be the registrar filling out the birth certificate. 

"WOKISM" does not end there they want to insult, offend and hurt me more as they do not want me to call my children son or daughter, they want the words male, female removed from existence as well as boy & girl, sadly it is a slippery slope and we are right at the top of it. Not once have I been asked what my views are instead the "WOKE" brigade can tell me that my views do not matter as they would be wrong, in fact they do not tell me I am wrong they shout that I am wrong, then they shout some more and smash up a few things whilst still shouting at me I am wrong, I feel hurt by that as it insults my intelligence and it will also be insulting the intelligence of the majority of people in this amazing nation we all live in and if someone brings it up we then get accused of being insensitive and not taking others into account that may be hurt.

I am not going to say any more on this thread as I have covered the points I wanted to, it is each to there own and peoples views differ, the above are my views and as such Jacob I am totally sure you will not try and ram over and over again your opposing views down my throat especially now that you are aware that I do feel hurt, offended and insulted by anything "WOKE"


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Garno said:


> Jacob Jacob Jacob
> 
> Over the last few years I recall many posts from yourself that showed zero consideration for other peoples feelings.
> ......


I'm always slightly mystified by this - could you point me to one?
Also I'm not sure what the expression "WOKE" is all about - it seems to emanate from the Daily Mail neck of the woods, means something to them but nothing to me.


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## Peterm1000 (11 May 2021)

Just to be clear, I am not talking about anything "woke" (which I think is a pretty dumb word by the way!). I am talking about what my grandfather would have described as "good manners". The jokes and comments I am talking about are not as borderline as Garno is suggesting (though Garno, you do seem to know a lot about gender identity!  ). They are comments that if they were made directly to one of the people being discussed would be seen as extremely rude.

There is a difference between a barbed comment made directly at an individual (and I have seen one or two from several members on that) and a comment made about an entire skin colour, race or gender (always women)


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## RobinBHM (11 May 2021)

There is a phoney culture war created by the right wing media.

It's a handy deflection......let's all be angry about statues then we won't notice the govt giving out billions on bogus contracts.


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

I don't read the jokes but I struggle big time to be woke.
I think deep down as an overall generilisation I dislike everybody, irrelevant of skin colour or nationality.


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## D_W (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm always slightly mystified by this - could you point me to one?
> Also I'm not sure what the expression "WOKE" is all about - it seems to emanate from the Daily Mail neck of the woods, means something to them but nothing to me.



Actually, I agree with garno. Whereas I'm just a grouch, I thought you were intentionally trolling, and I"m not saying that to *be a troll*, I thought you were just having a good time. 

The here and there posts where you mention how offended you are just kind of leave me stunned. It would be kind of like me saying that, but I'm not trolling - just disagreeable on points.


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## Trainee neophyte (11 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> There is a phoney culture war created by the right wing media.


Really? I didn't know that: I genuinely thought that the "woke" Critical Race Theory was was a left wing, university driven thing. They even call themselves cultural marxists.



> In a nutshell, Critical Race Theory (CRT) is a leftist academic theory which utilises neo-Marxist analysis to understand culture – and to change it. CRT is part of the broader Critical Theory that the Frankfurt School and cultural Marxists developed. Marxism has always been about power, but while economics was everything for the earlier Marxists, culture has now replaced that. So now we find everywhere power struggles within culture.



Or is it a right wing media conspiracy to point out that cultural Marxism is left wing? I freely admit to being confused by the whole mess of Critical Race Theory and its ironically racist anti-racism. 

There is a definite attempt to control speech, and even thought, throughout our culture at the moment. The internet is a very powerful tool for mind control - enforcing groupthink through the use of ridicule, censorship, and outright exclusion to ensure only right thinking statements get aired. Speech should be free, even if it is uncomfortable to listen to. The idea that something should not be said just in case someone, somewhere, chooses to be offended is not good way to find the truth. 

1984 was supposed to be a salutary warning, not an instruction manual.


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## Amateur (11 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I wonder... am I alone in feeling there are too many comments that make generalisations about a particular group's ethnicity or gender and the forum mods should take stronger action? In the past 24 hours on the joke thread there's been a "joke" suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job and that black people speak a certain way and there have been plenty of others that have been removed. Those kind of comments are less prevalent elsewhere in the forum, but they do exist enough that I think if I were a black, female woodworker I might think this forum is not for me.



Yet you try to get it discussed with the most radical minds on the forum here as you well know they will bite, and then repeat the post to try to get more affect, when you need say nothing and press that report button, and stop watching that particular forum.
It would have been more appropriate to send a message directly to the mods to discuss with them rather than trying to open a can of worms here. IMO.


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## danst96 (11 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> There is a phoney culture war created by the right wing media.
> 
> It's a handy deflection......let's all be angry about statues then we won't notice the govt giving out billions on bogus contracts.


Um, you got the wrong wing. The culture war is very much fueled by left wing, socialist and Marxist "educated" people. Many still in nappies.

For the record I'm yet to turn 25. Not that it makes any difference.


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## Fitzroy (11 May 2021)

The problem I have is how do you enable change when division is enthroned in our language and humour.

I work in an engineering (technical not manufacturing) industry and most of the work force is male. Is this because men have an inherently greater ability to engineer, of course not. Also we’re pretty good at employing a nearly equal mix of male and female, but 5 years in we have lost over a quarter of the females. Why is this? It’s likely many things but the poster over the sink stating “clean up after yourself your wife doesn’t come to work with you” is just a joke isn’t it!

I have two young sons and raising them has been fascinating. When one of them hurt themselves and started to cry my father called them out for being a little girl and to toughen up. At the local fair there was face painting with a queue for boys (soldier, spaceman, superhero) and one for girls (unicorn, butterfly, fairy). 95% of the kids stories with a hero, the hero is male. A boy is injured in a car accident along with his father who dies, on arriving at the hospital the surgeon explains they can’t operate on the boy as he is their son. *How is this possible?

Gender bias and sexism is engrained in our culture. People who are misogynists at heart hide behind the low level jokes and see them as permission for their own behaviour. The only way we will make the world a better place for all our daughters, and granddaughters is to cut out the issue every place we can. If we can’t get this right for 52% of the world’s population, we don’t stand a chance for the true minorities. This same idea applies to most of the equality and exclusion issues. 

Change is uncomfortable, but sometimes we have to give something up for the greater good. Is that light hearted joke really that important to you?

Fitz. 

*How many of you struggled with this when it’s easy? The surgeon is his mother!


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## EddyCurrent (11 May 2021)

I had a great time in the 60's and 70's things were so much simpler, or should I say, more sensible and less blurry.


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## thetyreman (11 May 2021)

people can hide behind jokes especially to bully others are often narcissistic in some way, but that's not what I'm encouraging, what I was talking about is how we are being censored massively unless it fits in with societal norms, this is happening in workplaces, schools, forums, everywhere, it's altering how we communicate in a really negative way because people are afraid they will insult somebody, that's a bad thing, we may even loose our sense of humour completely one day and become another species that no longer laughs at anything.


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

what about the "P--dy with the 2 @r$e-holes" is that a no no?

Be a shame, that's a good un.

Can I replace P--dy with Henrietta ........................ loses a bit of it's value but may be woke enough.


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## EddyCurrent (11 May 2021)

Unless you've been around a while, patterns are not so easy to spot.
My view is that most ideas start off sensible but over time people add their own two penneth until the original idea is lost and it's now way off the rails.
Animals are far more sensible in that respect.


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Where do you draw the line? Stereotypes about different people are one of the common themes of humour. Do we ban southerners from making snarky remarks about northerners (and vice versa)?
> 
> Storm in a teacup, I reckon.



Jolly well said, sorry I mean "aye up chuck, thou has thumucks that throu"


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

What set off this Daily Mail style hysteria in this thread? Very strange! Something must have frightened them.
What is "woke"? What is "the culture war"?
Why is TN taking such an interest in "Critical Race Theory"? Can't say I'd ever heard of it.
I looked up "Cultural Marxism" - seems its a loony right wing fringe thing
'Cultural Marxism': a uniting theory for rightwingers who love to play the victim | Jason Wilson
Interesting stuff all new to me! Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory - Wikipedia
The things you learn on a woodwork forum!  Thanks for that chaps, makes it all worthwhile!


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> What set off this Daily Mail style hysteria in this thread? Very strange! Something must have frightened them.



Can you show me the hysteria? or is it you whipping it up? whose "them".
I can't see hysteria, had a good look but definately can't see any, maybe that makes me a "them", might help if you clarified what "them" is.

Should I go to a doctor if I'm one of them, what are the symptoms of being a them?


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## Ozi (11 May 2021)

artie said:


> There's a clue in the title. "Joke thread"
> 
> Not to be taken seriously..
> 
> ...


And both got elected.


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## artie (11 May 2021)

Someone told me I was a racist a while back. I said so what.

They said it's illegal. I replied don't be daft.

After a bit of conversation I found out they actually believed it was illegal to be a racist.

What is the world coming to?


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## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Jolly well said, sorry I mean "aye up chuck, thou has thumucks that throu"


Git back under thi flagstone, tha soft southern jessie.

Glad Ah've got that off me chest. Right - Ah'm off to feed me whippet.


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## Misterdog (11 May 2021)

Plenty of abuse between remainers and brexiteers is that acceptable ?


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## RobinBHM (11 May 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Really? I didn't know that: I genuinely thought that the "woke" Critical Race Theory was was a left wing, university driven thing. They even call themselves cultural marxists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



all very interesting I'm sure....nothing to do with my post though.

Why do you persist with such dishonest debating techniques? Do you get a kick out of trolling?


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## Ollie78 (11 May 2021)

Stereotypes are not from thin air. 
Italians do talk with their hands a lot in comparison to many other people, whiskey is popular in Scotland, I live in the south west of england and I do in fact talk like a farmer according to people from other areas.

Many people do appear to be almost professionally offended these days. I think they should all watch some stand up comedy shows from the 70`s to the `90`s 
Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy George Carlin, Bill Hicks, etc. Mockery and humour are a great thing which stops this newly prevalent woke circular thinking, its a reality check and a reminder to relax.

Ollie


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

artie said:


> Someone told me I was a racist a while back. I said so what.
> 
> They said it's illegal. I replied don't be daft.
> 
> ...


Expression of aspects of racism certainly are illegal and quite right too. Racist and religious hate crime
There's been a big effort in recent years to right the wrongs of prejudice and race hate. About 400 years overdue in terms of black people but better late than never!


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## RobinBHM (11 May 2021)

artie said:


> Someone told me I was a racist a while back. I said so what.
> 
> They said it's illegal. I replied don't be daft.
> 
> ...



It is illegal to commit a hate crime, maybe that's what they were referring to


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## Bm101 (11 May 2021)

artie said:


> Someone told me I was a racist a while back. I said so what.
> 
> They said it's illegal. I replied don't be daft.
> 
> ...


Good job it's not illegal. You'd have to lock up complete ar*eholes of all races for judging others on a matter so trite as skin colour, accent, language or cultural difference rather than humanity, intelligence, kindness etc. And that's in a world wher you have access to all the knowledge of history with the internet at your fingertips. That's ironic no? Lol.
There'd be no room in the prisons for that amount of feckin class 1 idiots. They are _everywhere_.
I've been listening to BBC Radio 4 - A History of the World in 100 Objects - Downloads A History of the world in a 100 objects. While the time scales will blow your sense of history out of the water, the one common theme is that if as a species we were not eating, having sex or raising children then for the entirety of human history we having been killing the other humans for not being the same as us.





When the Kush people (Sudan) finally got a chance to smash the Egyptians they only had a couple of centuries to knock a hole in 1000s of years of Egyptian tradition. What they did was adopt Egyptian traditions and just modify it. Why? Easiest way to stay in charge. Simple as that. The people of Egypt were already under control. Why rock the boat?


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Stereotypes are not from thin air.
> Italians do talk with their hands a lot in comparison to many other people, whiskey is popular in Scotland, I live in the south west of england and I do in fact talk like a farmer according to people from other areas.
> 
> Many people do appear to be almost professionally offended these days. I think they should all watch some stand up comedy shows from the 70`s to the `90`s
> ...


Stereotypes are OK as long as they are not excuses for hatred, prejudice, discrimination etc.
I'm probably stereotyped as a baldy lefty old tw at with a beard and glasses from oop narth but that doesn't worry me a bit - but it might do if we were being systematically attacked and prejudiced against.


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Expression of aspects of racism certainly are illegal and quite right too. Racist and religious hate crime
> There's been a big effort in recent years to right the wrongs of prejudice and race hate. About 400 years overdue in terms of black people but better late than never!



Absolutely, but the credit goes to the young not yours or my generation, our generations moved it along but at snails pace


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm probably stereotyped as
> 
> a baldy
> lefty
> ...



maybe
definately
definately
yes
maybe


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> all very interesting I'm sure....nothing to do with my post though.
> 
> Why do you persist with such dishonest debating techniques? Do you get a kick out of trolling?


Perhaps better out than in? I didn't know what a "cultural marxist" is (supposed) to be until I looked it up, thanks to TN!




__





Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




Interesting how "marxist" is bandied about as an insult - but it's always by people who haven't the faintest idea what a marxist is. Mind you most marxists tend to be a bit vague on the subject. Marx said he wasn't one himself! Maybe he was just trying to confuse people, dodging and weaving.


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## Ollie78 (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Stereotypes are OK as long as they are not excuses for hatred, prejudice, discrimination etc.
> I'm probably stereotyped as a baldy lefty old pineapple with a beard and glasses but that doesn't worry me a bit - but it might do if we were being systematically attacked and prejudiced against.



I agree entirely with you Jacob, there is no reason anyone should be subjected to hatred, attack and prejudice. 
The problem comes when people are "finding" new ways to be offended, then going on to all and sundry about how "unfair and prejudiced" whatever they just invented is. Meanwhile, nobody else can even fathom what they are on about.

Ollie


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## Terry - Somerset (11 May 2021)

As a child in the 1950s I grew up with humour largely built around stereotypes - religious, racial, gender, nationality, job, class, politics etc.

50-60 years on and with hindsight some of the humour seems unacceptably unpleasant - in many cases where the "joke" is the product of thinly veiled anger or envy. But much still amuses!

If we remove from humour that which may offend someone there may be little left. What passes for humour on TV today often seems a celebration of the childish, inane and tediously worthy.

I do accept that context is important - 10 "jokes" in a row with a single stereotype (eg: race or religion or gender) as its focus would be unacceptable. As part of a mixed performance I have no problem.

It may be worth listening to some below the age of (say) 25 to understand what they find as amusing - it may be that at 60+ my capacity for humour is on a par with my IT skills. Time moves on!!


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## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2021)

Bit too much of this New Puritanism about for my liking. 'Hate Crimes' sounds a lot like the Spanish Inquisition, or Puritans banning plum puddings and mince pies in the 17th century in case someone enjoyed themselves - and look where they ended up. 

There seem to be rather a lot of people going around being professionally offended these days. Too much starch in their knickers, I reckon. That, or fed too much Marxist drivel in their Meeja studies courses at university.


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> ....
> ..... 10 "jokes" in a row with a single stereotype (eg: race or religion or gender) as its focus would be unacceptable. As part of a mixed performance I have no problem.


But the people being stereotyped might not be happy with it, which is more important.


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Bit too much of this New Puritanism about for my liking. 'Hate Crimes' sounds a lot like the Spanish Inquisition, or Puritans banning plum puddings and mince pies in the 17th century in case someone enjoyed themselves - and look where they ended up.
> 
> There seem to be rather a lot of people going around being professionally offended these days. Too much starch in their knickers, I reckon. That, or fed too much Marxist drivel in their Meeja studies courses at university.


Hi CC I thought you were taking up an interest in philosophy! Was it last year or the year before? Obviously haven't started yet - don't give up so easily!
PS a bit dated still going on about Meeja studies! This is "Meeja" by the way, which you are looking at now.


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## Bm101 (11 May 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Bit too much of this New Puritanism about for my liking. 'Hate Crimes' sounds a lot like the Spanish Inquisition, or Puritans banning plum puddings and mince pies in the 17th century in case someone enjoyed themselves - and look where they ended up.
> 
> There seem to be rather a lot of people going around being professionally offended these days. Too much starch in their knickers, I reckon. That, or fed too much Marxist drivel in their Meeja studies courses at university.


CC You know I respect you, but it's not 'meeja studies' it's everywhere, it's on the net and that's where they get their bread and water. Our day has already gone. We just dont realise it yet. It is current youth culture. In 20 years it will be the norm.


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

very easy to talk the talk on a woodworking forum.
Put the effort in to real life.

........... try and do someone a good turn, and not get found out, if someone knows about it, then it doesn't count. That's a toughie, I'm in a recovery program and did that religiously every day for 3 years, one of the hardest things I have ever done, especially when the deed is brought up in conversation and occasionally claimed by another.I still follow a program and try to do the above just not every day.

Be nice to everyone, do good deeds and you can't go to far wrong. I feel no need to take a knee, or protest.

If I appear grumpy or mean at times on the forum, it's usually with characters I have know online for years, they give as good as they get, I hope I don't upset people.

It will be a shame if workshop floor banter was ever banned. It becomes very PC challenged at times.


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## NickDReed (11 May 2021)

This thread will self destruct. In 3.....2......


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

NickDReed said:


> This thread will self destruct. In 3.....2......


Seems fairly civilised so far. Interesting kick-about of opinions. Maybe should be moved to the padded room? https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/off-topic-ii-for-controversial-topics.54/


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2021)

Bm101 said:


> CC You know I respect you, but it's not 'meeja studies' it's everywhere, it's on the net and that's where they get their bread and water. Our day has already gone. We just dont realise it yet. It is current youth culture. In 20 years it will be the norm.


Chris, not sure I entirely agree. I was trying to use a bit of levity to make a more serious point, which is that through history there have always been Puritans of one sort or another trying to enforce their will on the rest of us. In general, they haven't succeeded to any substantial degree. The current 'woke' puritanism is coming from a very small minority of very noisy individuals. Sure, some parts of the establishment have been thoroughly infiltrated by them - the BBC, for example; but (pretty much as a result) how often do you hear ordinary people saying they no longer take much notice of the BBC? Quite a lot, I suspect. Some of the 'woke' colleges in America are now struggling because student numbers have dropped off significantly (Evergreen, for example). The current government is addressing the question of free speech in universities, in part with a Bill announced in today's Queen's Speech. When 'woke' idiots throw statues in harbours and write 'Churchill was a racist' on his statue, the vast majority were not impressed.

All is not lost, but there is still work to do to re-establish common sense and tolerance.


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## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Off to bed. Just thought I'd post this up for tomorrows debate


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I thought you were taking up an interest in philosophy! Was it last year or the year before? Obviously haven't started yet - don't give up so easily!



Don't be so damn patronising. It's offensive.


----------



## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Chris, not sure I entirely agree. I was trying to use a bit of levity to make a more serious point, which is that through history there have always been Puritans of one sort or another trying to enforce their will on the rest of us. In general, they haven't succeeded to any substantial degree. The current 'woke' puritanism is coming from a very small minority of very noisy individuals. Sure, some parts of the establishment have been thoroughly infiltrated by them - the BBC, for example; but (pretty much as a result) how often do you hear ordinary people saying they no longer take much notice of the BBC? Quite a lot, I suspect. Some of the 'woke' colleges in America are now struggling because student numbers have dropped off significantly (Evergreen, for example). The current government is addressing the question of free speech in universities. When 'woke' idiots throw statues in harbours and write 'Churchill was a racist' on his statue, the vast majority were not impressed.
> 
> All is not lost, but there is still work to do to re-establish common sense and tolerance.


To avoid misunderstanding: "Woke" is a technical term used by you right-wingers and means nothing to normal people. It's like a secret language. Does it also involve funny hand shakes?


Cheshirechappie said:


> Don't be so damn patronising. It's offensive.


Just trying to get you out of your comfort zone.


----------



## Jacob (11 May 2021)

.


----------



## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> To avoid misunderstanding: "Woke" is a technical term used by you right-wingers and means nothing to normal people. It's like a secret language. Does it also involve funny hand shakes?



so anyone right wing is "not normal", does funny handshakes and has secret speak....................... someones a bit paranoid I think. I can't blame you with the impending implosion of your beloved party.

Some may think you are trying to turn a thread into a hot political topic, I suggest it's move to your gangs hidey hole threads.


----------



## EddyCurrent (11 May 2021)

If I am offended, which is very very rare, I just walk away because I realise it's my problem and not the offender. The logic being that if the same 'offence' was applied to a group of people, then some would be offended and some would not, therefore it's not the 'offence' at fault.


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

The only time I've taken offence recently was when a retail worker called me "bro". However I'm middle class and white and use the term woke. so it must be me.


----------



## Ollie78 (11 May 2021)

Here is an example of the level of politically correct madness that is occuring.

Last week the American congress used the term "Birthing people". Really, in an actual debate. 
Presumably this was intended to not "offend" Women, who are the exact definition of "birthing people", the only people who can give birth and are already described as such by the word Woman.

Just insane.

Ollie


----------



## Jacob (11 May 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Here is an example of the level of politically correct madness that is occuring.
> 
> Last week the American congress used the term "Birthing people". Really, in an actual debate.
> Presumably this was intended to not "offend" Women who are the exact definition of "birthing people", the only people who can give birth and are already described as such by the word Woman.
> ...


Insane I agree.
But so what - it's not as though there's a move afoot to describe women universally as "birthing people".  Here today gone tomorrow.
Why does it worry you particularly?
PS just spotted it - Daily Mail and The Sun - which means it's 100% cobblers. Best thing to do is to stop reading them.


----------



## Wildman (11 May 2021)

a lot of people, like me would only see humour and not even realise a joke was stereotypical, political correctness has gone to far and humour is no longer possible without offending someone, I'll just stick to being a grumpy old sod and not smile at anything.


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## doctor Bob (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Insane I agree.
> But so what - it's not as though there's a move afoot to describe women universally as "birthing people".  Here today gone tomorrow.
> Why does it worry you particularly?



But surely then you shouldn't get so agitated about being called woke, it's not as though there is a move afoot to descibe all lefty labour candidates as "wokers" (no need, they can balls it up without help) here today gone tomorrow, why does it worry you particularly?

Just spotted that "woke hijack story in the guardian, which means it's 100% cobblers, best think to do is stop reading it.


----------



## Ollie78 (11 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Insane I agree.
> But so what - it's not as though there's a move afoot to describe women universally as "birthing people".  Here today gone tomorrow.
> Why does it worry you particularly?
> PS just spotted it - Daily Mail and The Sun - which means it's 100% cobblers. Best thing to do is to stop reading them.



Please do not accuse me of reading the Daily mail or the Sun, I shall certainly be offended !! 
It is certainly cobblers, at least in one way, though it did in fact happen, can`t remember where I saw the video now.

It doesn`t worry me particularly, in fact it is hilarious. However I am concerned that people are becoming so scared to offend anyone that they are making up a language that is so preposterous it makes no sense at all.
Things like some people are referring to themselves in the singular as "they", this makes no sense to me. 

Though of course my opinion is somewhat moot as a straight white man. I just like doing woodwork, until that becomes offensive to people identifiying as trees.

Ollie


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## Valhalla (12 May 2021)

Just lobbing this grenade in......

My wife and I were talking over dinner the other night and she mentioned the statue meant to honour the feminist icon Mary Wollstonecraft. She said that numerous people had commented about the naked lady on top of the statue and how prominent her 'lady garden' was and that it looked like a clump of broccoli....and I said that it was because she had a vegina. 

You might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb - and if you're offended ......... BITE ME!


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## Orraloon (12 May 2021)

OK boys and girls (oops did I say that) we have all had some fun, now let's all have some discussion on sharpening so we can all calm down.
Regards
John


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## JimB (12 May 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Though of course my opinion is somewhat moot as a straight white man. I just like doing woodwork, until that becomes offensive to people identifiying as trees.
> 
> Ollie


Don't you mean 'a linear, unwoke, non person of colour'?


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## richarddownunder (12 May 2021)

Best thread I have read in ages. I will, henceforth, also identify as a " linear, unwoke, person of non-colour " in censuses.


----------



## Jacob (12 May 2021)

richarddownunder said:


> Best thread I have read in ages. I will, henceforth, also identify as a " linear, unwoke, person of non-colour " in censuses.


But why, what on earth are you talking about? Or could say why not if it keeps you happy.
It doesn't mean anything - it's like a secret masonic language, made up and for some reason making people angry.
Maybe people just like feeling angry?
In fact, come to think, making people angry is the selling point of the Daily Mail, The Sun and others. A very old press tradition!


----------



## doctor Bob (12 May 2021)

From now on I want you all to call me Lorretta, I want to have babies..............................


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I've lived all over the country and in various countries in the world. People do now seem to be better travelled and more exposed to other cultures than they were 30 or 40 years ago. In my experience, those regional stereotypes don't hold true. I think it's a good thing some of those very offensive comments from 30 or 40 years ago have gone to the grave.
> 
> I suspect it's easier to ignore and move on if you, your family or friends aren't the butt of the joke.
> 
> The language is mostly in the joke forum, but it's not only there. The Brexit and Covid threads have also lead to various derogatory comments being made about the people of other countries - less about the colour of their skin, but about their stereotypical national characteristics.


When I was a young lad in school in a small Yorkshire village the saying was ,sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me , I think it's sad that we live in such a fragile and easily offended world today.


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

Garno said:


> Jacob Jacob Jacob
> 
> Over the last few years I recall many posts from yourself that showed zero consideration for other peoples feelings.
> 
> ...


Well said


----------



## Daniel2 (12 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> From now on I want you all to call me Lorretta, I want to have babies..............................



You can't have babies, but it's not your fault.
Howabout, you can have the right to have babies, even if you can't ?


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> There is a phoney culture war created by the right wing media.
> 
> It's a handy deflection......let's all be angry about statues then we won't notice the govt giving out billions on bogus contracts.


This tops it all never heard more clap trap go read the guardian


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> What set off this Daily Mail style hysteria in this thread? Very strange! Something must have frightened them.
> What is "woke"? What is "the culture war"?
> Why is TN taking such an interest in "Critical Race Theory"? Can't say I'd ever heard of it.
> I looked up "Cultural Marxism" - seems its a loony right wing fringe thing
> ...


Left wing


Jacob said:


> What set off this Daily Mail style hysteria in this thread? Very strange! Something must have frightened them.
> What is "woke"? What is "the culture war"?
> Why is TN taking such an interest in "Critical Race Theory"? Can't say I'd ever heard of it.
> I looked up "Cultural Marxism" - seems its a loony right wing fringe thing
> ...


No it's driven by the hard left read the wiki article properly and read the guardian


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

Bm101 said:


> Good job it's not illegal. You'd have to lock up complete ar*eholes of all races for judging others on a matter so trite as skin colour, accent, language or cultural difference rather than humanity, intelligence, kindness etc. And that's in a world wher you have access to all the knowledge of history with the internet at your fingertips. That's ironic no? Lol.
> There'd be no room in the prisons for that amount of feckin class 1 idiots. They are _everywhere_.
> I've been listening to BBC Radio 4 - A History of the World in 100 Objects - Downloads A History of the world in a 100 objects. While the time scales will blow your sense of history out of the water, the one common theme is that if as a species we were not eating, having sex or raising children then for the entirety of human history we having been killing the other humans for not being the same as us.
> 
> ...


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> To avoid misunderstanding: "Woke" is a technical term used by you right-wingers and means nothing to normal people. It's like a secret language. Does it also involve funny hand shakes?
> 
> Just trying to get you out of your comfort zone.


By right winger I take it you mean anyone who does not agree with you


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> But why, what on earth are you talking about? Or could say why not if it keeps you happy.
> It doesn't mean anything - it's like a secret masonic language, made up and for some reason making people angry.
> Maybe people just like feeling angry?
> In fact, come to think, making people angry is the selling point of the Daily Mail, The Sun and others. A very old press tradition!


Now your attacking masons


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## planesleuth (12 May 2021)

Get over yourself Jacob and stop over posting.


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## Adam W. (12 May 2021)

Meanwhile, elsewhere on a woodworking forum someone talks about wood.

I think I'll go over there and leave you all to get angry about whatever it is you're getting angry about.


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## richarddownunder (12 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> But why, what on earth are you talking about? Or could say why not if it keeps you happy.
> It doesn't mean anything - it's like a secret masonic language, made up and for some reason making people angry.
> Maybe people just like feeling angry?
> In fact, come to think, making people angry is the selling point of the Daily Mail, The Sun and others. A very old press tradition!


Just for you Jacob ... Woke - Wikipedia
There's More To "Woke" Than You Think - it has, as I understand it, and in the context of the current discussion, come to mean 'politically correct' although that wasn't its earlier meaning.

Cheers
Loretta


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## fobco (12 May 2021)

richarddownunder said:


> Just for you Jacob ... Woke - Wikipedia
> There's More To "Woke" Than You Think - it has, as I understand it, and in the context of the current discussion, come to mean 'politically correct' although that wasn't its earlier meaning.
> 
> Cheers
> Loretta


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## fobco (12 May 2021)

If this island is so bad why do do people from around the world come here, maybe because we are father feed them all, easy touch, our history is ours if you cannot accept that do not come here.


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## lucgizi (12 May 2021)

As a female woodworker (ish), I can confirm that jokes stereotyping women are not offensive and can be funny. If anything, I find it that comments about "the missus" in other threads (or the joys of not having one) are a lot more offensive.


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## artie (12 May 2021)

Being Irish, Northern Irish, Not a proper Paddy some would say.

Being the butt of racial jokes pretty much world wide, I've noticed that the Irish tell more Irish jokes than anyone.

Bit Irish that. 

Do I get banned now?


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## Jacob (12 May 2021)

richarddownunder said:


> Just for you Jacob ... Woke - Wikipedia
> There's More To "Woke" Than You Think - it has, as I understand it, and in the context of the current discussion, come to mean 'politically correct' although that wasn't its earlier meaning.
> 
> Cheers
> Loretta


OK thanks for that. Seems to be a flexible term depending on who is using it.
Used by BLM activists past and present in a fairly intelligible way but also by the opposition as an insult, as also is "politically correct". Got it! I'm definitely on the side of the "woke" but I'm not going to wear the T shirt!


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## Jacob (12 May 2021)

fobco said:


> If this island is so bad why do do people from around the world come here, maybe because we are father feed them all, easy touch, our history is ours if you cannot accept that do not come here.


But our history is theirs too, for better or worse. They come here because we went there.


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## Davey44 (12 May 2021)

Maybe the very fact that the topic is getting an airing is a good thing? I agree that we should post nothing that we wouldn't have said to our Grandparents or to a maiden aunt. If we can manage to remember - before we post - to read it through again with the eyes of a grandchild to a grandparent then consider some editing?


----------



## MikeJhn (12 May 2021)

The problem as I see it, is that we British are in danger of loosing our heritage to the "Don't offend" brigade who don't like the History we have made, take it or leave it, it happened.


----------



## Terry - Somerset (12 May 2021)

A few miles from where I grew up in the 1950/60s there was a main road where the council had very helpfully put up signs to alert drivers. The sign changed every few years as perceptions of the different terms changed (apologies if the words actually offend):

- cripples crossing
- handicapped crossing
- elderly crossing
- disabled crossing

I may have missed a couple of iterations. The signs are now no longer there having been replaced by traffic lights using illuminated "cross" and "don't cross" symbology.

I am distressed that these appear to be male symbols - the stick humans are wearing trousers (or naked). They certainly don't wear skirts or use wheel chairs.

On reflection I realise I shold raise this with the roads department and organise a demo to protest at blatant sexism and a failure to recognise wheel chair users as part of society.

I'm quite sure there would also be a racial or ethnic issues attached to the blatant abuse of minorities were it not for the fact that the authorities have chosen red and green for the imagery!


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## John Brown (12 May 2021)

I find it hard to argue with this, which is taken from a Facebook post wrongly attributed to Ron Howard.


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## Crazy Dave (12 May 2021)

Prejudice shows ignorance.
Ignorance shows lack of understanding or learning.
Ergo prejudices exist in the unschooled "moron".
Moron, a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgement.
Stupid, lacking ordinary quickness of mind (dull).

Need I say more?


----------



## Glitch (12 May 2021)

thetyreman said:


> the less politically correct and offensive, the more I like it, we are being controlled by 'woke' people, it really annoys me how easily people are offended thesedays, it's also getting worse and making me be more offensive deliberately with jokes especially.



I'm the same but It's all relative I guess.

If the OP was a Boomer they would probably have watched and most likely laughed at TV programs such as:

Love thy Neighbour
'Til death us do part
It ain't half hot Mum
Black and White Minstrels
Rising Damp
Allo Allo
Are you being served?
Curry and Chips
Mind your Language

Add in numerous offensive but at the time, popular comedians, Carry on and Confessions films, etc.

Today they are shocking to the vast majority of people, including those brought up on them. Attitudes have moved on considerably but people still see the need for a completely sanitised, perfect, egalitarian world. People will always find something to be offended by and a noisy minority spend a lot of time searching for it.

The joke thread has some funny ones and some lame ones. If people are that easily offended they really need to stick to woodwork threads. The archeologist joke is funny (assuming that one has caused the OP to post). In my experience women have far better recall of events than I do. My wife certainly does and she laughed at the joke.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2021)

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, recently fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and promoted by a sick mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of s**t by the clean end!"


----------



## Cabinetman (12 May 2021)

Davey44 said:


> Maybe the very fact that the topic is getting an airing is a good thing? I agree that we should post nothing that we wouldn't have said to our Grandparents or to a maiden aunt. If we can manage to remember - before we post - to read it through again with the eyes of a grandchild to a grandparent then consider some editing?


 Not disagreeing with you, just mention that people of my grandparents generation, Born at the end of the 1800s certainly didn’t stop and think about the feelings of the people they were talking to, I think if you went back to those times you would be shocked, people said what they thought straight out and to your face then.


----------



## Jacob (12 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> "Political Correctness is a doctrine, recently fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and promoted by a sick mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of s**t by the clean end!"


You don't have to believe everything they tell you Phil!


----------



## Chippysu (12 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I wonder... am I alone in feeling there are too many comments that make generalisations about a particular group's ethnicity or gender and the forum mods should take stronger action? In the past 24 hours on the joke thread there's been a "joke" suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job and that black people speak a certain way and there have been plenty of others that have been removed. Those kind of comments are less prevalent elsewhere in the forum, but they do exist enough that I think if I were a black, female woodworker I might think this forum is not for me.


Yes, let's pour Detol on the world. Infact let's ban harmless humour & banter altogether.


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

it used to be a badge of honour for people to speak their minds,
the way we are going yorkshire people who are famous for just that will be "cancelled" by the wokeists who believe in a kind of strange modern speak which is more or less the polar oposite of comon sense.


----------



## Lons (12 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm probably stereotyped as a baldy lefty old tw at with a beard and glasses.



Now what on earth makes you think that?  I am in full agreement though.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 May 2021)

don't worry Jacobs mob will never be in charge.
All jacobs posts help to reinforce that fact, we need these oddbods, they are the best asset at present.

Jacob hasn't got one political prediction correct in a decade, we are all safe.

His list is
Jezza will win
Jezza will win
Brexit wont win the referendum
Brexit won't go ahead
Boris will stop brexit, only logic
etc etc
Stand down folks, it's just hot air and waffle, no harm meant from him.


----------



## Jacob (12 May 2021)

Lons said:


> Now what on earth makes you think that?  I am in full agreement though.


 You could add "woke" now that I know what it means, though it's not a term I'm used to.


----------



## PhilTilson (12 May 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I don't look at the Joke thread, I suspect it's all boomer humour.


Well, if that's not offensive, stereotypical comment, I don't know what is!


----------



## Spectric (12 May 2021)

The place is going to pot, I dare say that there are many people on here who have had stressful jobs, had to work long hard shifts or just had really bad days and it is often the banter and humour amongst the workforce that has got you through, so sterilise the language and make it 100% Pc and you will increase stress levels leading to mental health issues and absence through sickness to reducing creativity and productivity, bring back the days when there were Men, Woman and the right angles where people could laugh at themselves and take things in the right context without freaking out, I think we have had evolution and are now entering devolution.


----------



## Spectric (12 May 2021)

I doubt many youngsters today would have survived in the days when us boomers were at school, we may have been wearing shorts, had scabby knees and not worried about our snotty nose but life and society were more down to earth and even the teachers refered to pupils using language that would see them locked up today and programs like love they neighbour were just accepted for what they were, a comedy and no offence taken.


----------



## pils (12 May 2021)

Subtly connected to this topic, I found this:






The British Slang Dictionary — The Ultimate British English Dictionary


The Ultimate British English Dictionary




britishslangdictionary.net





which I have laughed ALOT at (baby batter)
I'm sure some might find it offensive to some 'groups of people' ...especially since it's written by an AMERICAN!


----------



## pils (12 May 2021)

PhilTilson said:


> Well, if that's not offensive, stereotypical comment, I don't know what is!


 But is it, though? Who decides? and who decides who decides? AND what's the criteria? and who decides the criteria IS the criteria?


----------



## pils (12 May 2021)

how *NOT *to comment by pils...sometimes I can't even press the right button.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2021)

How long before things like this get taken down?


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2021)

pils said:


> Subtly connected to this topic, I found this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try Roger's Profanisaurus.


----------



## dizjasta (12 May 2021)

Crazy Dave said:


> Prejudice shows ignorance.
> Ignorance shows lack of understanding or learning.
> Ergo prejudices exist in the unschooled "moron".
> Moron, a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgement.
> ...


Careful - A moron is a person with restricted mental development. Someone with a disability.


----------



## pils (12 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I wonder... am I alone in feeling there are too many comments that make generalisations about a particular group's ethnicity or gender and the forum mods should take stronger action? In the past 24 hours on the joke thread there's been a "joke" suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job and that black people speak a certain way and there have been plenty of others that have been removed. Those kind of comments are less prevalent elsewhere in the forum, but they do exist enough that I think if I were a black, female woodworker I might think this forum is not for me.


Sometimes I think *if*_ I were a black, male woodworker_ I'd laugh out loud at those white people's insecurity and over exertion to hold the moral high ground.


----------



## pils (12 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Try Roger's Profanisaurus.


WOW! you're a star! another evening wiping tears from my eyes!


----------



## woodpeckers (12 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I wonder... am I alone in feeling there are too many comments that make generalisations about a particular group's ethnicity or gender and the forum mods should take stronger action? In the past 24 hours on the joke thread there's been a "joke" suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job and that black people speak a certain way and there have been plenty of others that have been removed. Those kind of comments are less prevalent elsewhere in the forum, but they do exist enough that I think if I were a black, female woodworker I might think this forum is not for me.


 I think its always been the same. I'm a woman, a woodcarver since the age of 14 (35 years ago  and have encountered this. Particularly at woodworking shows unfortunately where if you show interest or wish to purchase something, sometimes they speak to my partner or totally ignore me, smile and look at me like I don't know what I'm talking about. I just tut, roll my eyes and walk away. Luckily its becoming less now as more women now seem to be doing "men's jobs" as they put it. Just think of them as ignorant.


----------



## Droogs (12 May 2021)

Davey44 said:


> Maybe the very fact that the topic is getting an airing is a good thing? I agree that we should post nothing that we wouldn't have said to our Grandparents or to a maiden aunt. If we can manage to remember - before we post - to read it through again with the eyes of a grandchild to a grandparent then consider some editing?


Only problem with that is that if I consider that generation for me then I have to include the "black sheep of the family" my great uncle on the grounds that because of the way that the British had treated him, his sister and his mother during the 2nd Boer War (internment in a concentration camp) he refused to fight for the Brits in big party 2 and ended up serving in the 21 Pnzr Division (irony). Bet he wouldn't find anything in the thread offensive.


----------



## doctor Bob (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> I think its always been the same. I'm a woman, a woodcarver since the age of 14 (35 years ago  and have encountered this. Particularly at woodworking shows unfortunately where if you show interest or wish to purchase something, sometimes they speak to my partner or totally ignore me, smile and look at me like I don't know what I'm talking about. I just tut, roll my eyes and walk away. Luckily its becoming less now as more women now seem to be doing "men's jobs" as they put it. Just think of them as ignorant.



Not just women though is it, suspect same happens with male nurses, male childminders. It's not the gender that's the problem it's the job is usually associated with a gender.
A man going to a knitting festival, a man crocheting, a man collecting "my little ponies", a man decorating his bedroom with rainbow unicorns, I could go on we are oppressed, I can't really do any of this without wierd looks, I just battle on......................


----------



## woodpeckers (12 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Not just women though is it, suspect same happens with male nurses, male childminders. It's not the gender that's the problem it's the job is usually associated with a gender.
> A man going to a knitting festival, a man crocheting, a man collecting "my little ponies", a man decorating his bedroom with rainbow unicorns, I could go on we are oppressed, I can't really do any of this without wierd looks, I just battle on......................


Yes You're right, BUT I'm quoting as a woman not a bloke though  I know men who like knitting and are good at it. You just accept it.


----------



## Reginald (12 May 2021)

the real problem nowadays is that free speach no longer exists nobody can truly speak their mind anymore .
it was always considered honest to speak your mind but not any more.
it was always considered honorable to speak your mind but sadly not any more .
it was always considered a good character trait but not any more.
all of the above are bieng replaced by newspeak-which above all else kills freespeech and forces good people to hide their thoughts or worse subscribe to the deception that is woke.
i joined this forum because i thought like minded people would be great to talk to and chew the cud so to speak but sadly i find myself censored so i will quit while i am ahead and leave this place i hate to be baited and not permitted a reply.
cheers all and goodby.


----------



## Droogs (12 May 2021)

@woodpeckers may I ask, if you feel as in your first post in the thread, why are you not more proactive in changing that perception for example being more active in threads on the forum. As a carver of 30 odd years, you must have a massive amount of knowledge and skills that members would love to hear about. being active in passing this on would surely raise the profile of female woodworkers in a positive way and help dispel some of the ignorance.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> Yes You're right, BUT I'm quoting as a woman not a bloke though  I know men who like knitting and are good at it. You just accept it.



Kaffe Fassett?


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## Rorschach (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> I think its always been the same. I'm a woman, a woodcarver since the age of 14 (35 years ago  and have encountered this. Particularly at woodworking shows unfortunately where if you show interest or wish to purchase something, sometimes they speak to my partner or totally ignore me, smile and look at me like I don't know what I'm talking about. I just tut, roll my eyes and walk away. Luckily its becoming less now as more women now seem to be doing "men's jobs" as they put it. Just think of them as ignorant.



Speaking personally I have found that talking to both purchaser and partner works better for my business. For example say it is a man buying a product then if I "woo" the wife as well, not only I am more likely to make a sale as the wife approves the purchase but later on I often get the wife coming to me directly to purchase gifts for her husband.


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## doctor Bob (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> Yes You're right, BUT I'm quoting as a woman not a bloke though  I know men who like knitting and are good at it. You just accept it.



I do, thank you, what makes you think I don't. I took the mickey out of myself and no one else, is that not allowed?


----------



## Jacob (12 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Not just women though is it, suspect same happens with male nurses, male childminders. It's not the gender that's the problem it's the job is usually associated with a gender.
> A man going to a knitting festival, a man crocheting, a man collecting "my little ponies", a man decorating his bedroom with rainbow unicorns, I could go on we are oppressed, I can't really do any of this without wierd looks, I just battle on......................


How many little ponies have you got now Bobby? In my bathroom I wouldn't have room for rainbow unicorns as well.


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## woodpeckers (12 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> @woodpeckers may I ask, if you feel as in your first post in the thread, why are you not more proactive in changing that perception for example being more active in threads on the forum. As a carver of 30 odd years, you must have a massive amount of knowledge and skills that members would love to hear about. being active in passing this on would surely raise the profile of female woodworkers in a positive way and help dispel some of the ignorance.


Thank you for bringing this up Droogs- sounds a good idea. I would love to share experience of woodcarving ( my one evening off from two small children and running a business - busy, busy, I'm at a local woodcarving club helping new members). I don't get much time to come on here and dip in and out occasionally as I find topics of interest. I will try find the time to share stuff or start a woodcarving thread.


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## woodpeckers (12 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I do, thank you, what makes you think I don't. I took the mickey out of myself and no one else, is that not allowed?


Please feel free to share some of your work, and of course your collection of Little Ponies


----------



## shed9 (12 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Not just women though is it, suspect same happens with male nurses, male childminders. It's not the gender that's the problem it's the job is usually associated with a gender.
> A man going to a knitting festival, a man crocheting, a man collecting "my little ponies", a man decorating his bedroom with rainbow unicorns, I could go on we are oppressed, I can't really do any of this without wierd looks, I just battle on......................


Ah, the old 'but what about men' retort to anecdotes of misogyny.


----------



## Yojevol (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> I know men who like knitting and are good at it. You just accept it.







In some cultures (here Peru - Lake Titicaca) it's the norm for men to do the knitting


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> Please feel free to share some of your work, and of course your collection of Little Ponies


 Search for Dr Bob's kitchens. Only if you wish to feel madly envious..


----------



## doctor Bob (12 May 2021)

shed9 said:


> Ah, the old 'but what about men' retort to anecdotes of misogyny.


Good grief, ok whatever...........................
Can't people see I'm teeing it up to take the pissss out of myself...............


----------



## Lons (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> Thank you for bringing this up Droogs- sounds a good idea. I would love to share experience of woodcarving ( my one evening off from two small children and running a business - busy, busy, I'm at a local woodcarving club helping new members). I don't get much time to come on here and dip in and out occasionally as I find topics of interest. I will try find the time to share stuff or start a woodcarving thread.


I'm with Droogs, as a long term off and on carver I'd be interested in your work. I've sure I've seen a female woodcarver at Harrogate show, certainly there seem to be more demonstrating woodturning these days which is great to see.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (12 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Search for Dr Bob's kitchens. Only if you wish to feel madly envious..


Or join in the Christmas Secret Santa group - @doctor Bob gives away a fitted kitchen every year - astonishingly generous of him!



RobinBHM said:


> all very interesting I'm sure....nothing to do with my post though.
> 
> Why do you persist with such dishonest debating techniques? Do you get a kick out of trolling?


May I refer you back to my post:



Trainee neophyte said:


> There is a definite attempt to control speech, and even thought, throughout our culture at the moment. The internet is a very powerful tool for mind control - enforcing groupthink through the use of ridicule, censorship, and outright exclusion to ensure only right thinking statements get aired


Now, it turns out that I don't read the Guardian on a regular basis, mostly because they have become completely unhinged. On that basis, I was not aware of the Blue - annon conspiracy theory nonsense that you were alluding to - namely that the guardian and friends, in order to provide cover for for radical leftwing cultural Marxism (their own terminology, by the way), it is claimed that there is no such thing as "wokeness" or any of the other insane nonsense currently being promulgated by the radical left -it's just the right wing press making a storm in a teacup and trying to instigate some more race hatred and blah blah blah.

You repeatedly accuse me of being dishonest. Is it because anyone who doesn't subscribe to your world view _must_ be lying, because your version of reality is the only possible truth? The assumption being that because I know you must be right, disagreeing with you is dishonest by definition? 

Perhaps I should read the Guardian more, so I can be properly programmed.


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## doctor Bob (12 May 2021)

I'm starting to realise I'm old school, and genuinely not too worried about it.
I like workshop banter.
I'm a decent fella who isn't racist, welcomes various race / ethnic groups into my family and friendship, works for the community and does a lot of volenteer work. I sometimes feel these days people just want to talk about it rather than actually doing it.
All very well protesting and posting on woodwork forums but why not actually do something.

I don't fit in this thread, I'll leave you to it.


----------



## shed9 (12 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Good grief, ok whatever...........................
> Can't people see I'm teeing it up to take the pissss out of myself...............


Whose to say I wasn't taking the pissss out of the comment as well?


----------



## Crazy Dave (12 May 2021)

dizjasta said:


> Careful - A moron is a person with restricted mental development. Someone with a disability.


Sorry you're wrong, "moron" doesn't refer to a disabled person, check the dictionary like I did before posting.
BTW I was called stupid on an almost daily basis by my teachers nowadays they call it Dyslexia.
Thanks for the warning anyway.


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## Peterm1000 (12 May 2021)

The stuff that I was originally referring to is not "woke" type things. There aren't people referring to "tradesmen" rather than "tradespeople". There are people openly feeling it is OK to post jokes or other comments based entirely on the colour of someone's skin or the country they come from or their gender. The stuff that would get you punched if you said it to the person in question in the pub. The mods do a good job at removing this stuff, but it still keeps coming back.


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## Cooper (12 May 2021)

I'm afraid that like it or not a lot of people in this country are a bit racist and misogynistic ( I probably am but don't like it and endevour not express it). Unfortunately a few are unwilling to recognise this in themselves or appriciate that their "plain speaking or only joking" is distressing to others. 

In favour of this forum, I suspect that its a much smaller proportion of our users who are deliberately offensive, than in the community at large.

I spent my career working in schools in Inner London and later with disabled young people. What I learned from the children was that hurtful though lots of snide comments and jokes are they weren't prepared to let that get them down. But that is no reason for the rest of us not to use good manners. I hope everyone with an interest in practical work feels welcome and at home here.


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## Chris152 (12 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> The stuff that I was originally referring to is not "woke" type things. There aren't people referring to "tradesmen" rather than "tradespeople". There are people openly feeling it is OK to post jokes or other comments based entirely on the colour of someone's skin or the country they come from or their gender. The stuff that would get you punched if you said it to the person in question in the pub. The mods do a good job at removing this stuff, but it still keeps coming back.


I think your original post was quite reasonable, Peter. What's happened at some points in this thread is the same as is happening in some parts of the press, taking its lead from some parts of the political scene - take a few extreme, clearly silly cases, attach to those cases the title 'woke' or 'pc', then use those cases to try to trash everything else - however reasonable - that could possibly come under the same headings. Sadly that strategy seems to sell papers and get votes.


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## Daniel2 (12 May 2021)

....... and get reactions


----------



## Jacob (12 May 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> A few miles from where I grew up in the 1950/60s there was a main road where the council had very helpfully put up signs to alert drivers. The sign changed every few years as perceptions of the different terms changed (apologies if the words actually offend):
> 
> - cripples crossing
> - handicapped crossing
> ...


You may have missed a couple of iterations but you've probably added one; "cripples crossing". I'd be very surprised if that was ever used. 
I doubt the other terms would offend anybody, if they were relevant to the crossing users.


> The signs are now no longer there having been replaced by traffic lights using illuminated "cross" and "don't cross" symbology.
> I am distressed that these appear to be male symbols - the stick humans are wearing trousers (or naked). They certainly don't wear skirts or use wheel chairs.
> On reflection I realise I shold raise this with the roads department and organise a demo to protest at blatant sexism and a failure to recognise wheel chair users as part of society.
> I'm quite sure there would also be a racial or ethnic issues attached to the blatant abuse of minorities were it not for the fact that the authorities have chosen red and green for the imagery!


I think you are exaggerating your distress!


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## Bm101 (12 May 2021)

woodpeckers said:


> Thank you for bringing this up Droogs- sounds a good idea. I would love to share experience of woodcarving ( my one evening off from two small children and running a business - busy, busy, I'm at a local woodcarving club helping new members). I don't get much time to come on here and dip in and out occasionally as I find topics of interest. I will try find the time to share stuff or start a woodcarving thread.


Looking forward to that!


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## Droogs (12 May 2021)

I must admit carving, especially in the round rather than letters, is very much a dark art around the forum as it is something that doesn't get a lot of attention really . Which is a shame as I would love to get some ideas on a notion of how to create carvings for some of the things I would like to make; to supplement my marquetry and inlay. Having an idea of hot to carve something would open up the design possibilities for a lot of us me thinks


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## doctor Bob (12 May 2021)

tony blair today
"I am afraid I am of an age where I am now terrified if I can talk about any of these subjects that I am going to say something that I should not say. It is a minefield on virtually everything. If you are of a certain generation, you are not sure what you can or what you can't say. Or whether you can make a joke about something you cannot make a joke, so I will leave it at that"


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## D_W (12 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> I must admit carving, especially in the round rather than letters, is very much a dark art around the forum as it is something that doesn't get a lot of attention really . Which is a shame as I would love to get some ideas on a notion of how to create carvings for some of the things I would like to make; to supplement my marquetry and inlay. Having an idea of hot to carve something would open up the design possibilities for a lot of us me thinks



The interesting thing about carving is that it's a lot like guitar making (and getting a guitar to sound really good, specifically, not just making one that looks good). I remember a guy who carved some rosewood furniture in an apartment closet over a matter of years. It was spectacular, and his response was that he learned in the closet or at the bench, because that's the only way to carve. 

My friend George is a good carver, but not a trade carver (a trade carver probably works faster than he does). He talks about results and design issues in the carvings, but you have to ask a specific question before he talks methods. He is also a savant at drawing and proportion, being able to freehand broad curves in proportion to make drawings to carve. I think that's step one - if you want to carve, you'll just have to carve, but learning to draw or learning proportion to find good drawings (some people will never draw well - I probably won't, either. George spent his childhood tracing books with line drawings of ships which probably has a lot to do with his neural development). 

Who is this goerge I speak of?





I don't know who taught him to carve - i'm not sure anyone did directly. He quickly got to the point that he would make the tools that he needed to do certain carvings like the lute rose at the top of this picture. 


George Wilson, Luthier



If you can get him to talk at length about anything, though, it's proportion and trying to get certain results or standards.


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## D_W (12 May 2021)

Here's a joke I heard from George that he got grief for saying at CW - when he'd finish a violin and CW guests were there, he would say "Look - it's brand new and baroque already!".


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## Ozi (12 May 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Plenty of abuse between remainers and brexiteers is that acceptable ?


Very - keeps me entertained.


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## MadMental (12 May 2021)

Look like to me that the chap who started this thread doesnt seem to realise that its a joke its Not called a maliciouse intent to offend its a JOKE are we to be bored to death everywhere we go by Woke morons? Such idiotsseem to be everywhere dont they understand that Really the majority of the human race cant be bothered with them. Blah Blah Blah


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## Ollie78 (12 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Not just women though is it, suspect same happens with male nurses, male childminders. It's not the gender that's the problem it's the job is usually associated with a gender.
> A man going to a knitting festival, a man crocheting, a man collecting "my little ponies", a man decorating his bedroom with rainbow unicorns, I could go on we are oppressed, I can't really do any of this without wierd looks, I just battle on......................



It's a bit like when I took my son to playgroup when he was small. It was decidedly odd being the only man in there with about 30 mums and 50 odd kids. ( also the only one paying the slightest attention to my child it seemed).

Ollie


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## Terry - Somerset (12 May 2021)

After retirement I realised why I found work increasingly tedious - the job may be fun and rewarding, the office environment was stultifying. 

Almost every area of conversation slowly disappeared from social interaction - politics, religion, economy, sex, etc - for fear that someone may be upset or offended.

End result - the only acceptable topics left were TV trivia and soaps + footie. I didn't watch the former, and had limited interest in the latter.

The over-sensitivity of a few should not inhibit the reasonable behaviour of the many - it needs a compromise.

The Queens speech proposed legisation to ensure universities can no longer so easily "no platform" controversial speakers. Allowing people the right to freely express opinions in a reasonable manner is part of being a mature democratic society.


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## woodpeckers (12 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> I must admit carving, especially in the round rather than letters, is very much a dark art around the forum as it is something that doesn't get a lot of attention really . Which is a shame as I would love to get some ideas on a notion of how to create carvings for some of the things I would like to make; to supplement my marquetry and inlay. Having an idea of hot to carve something would open up the design possibilities for a lot of us me thinks


I've started a Woodcarving project thread in the Project section


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## Chris152 (12 May 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The Queens speech proposed legisation to ensure universities can no longer so easily "no platform" controversial speakers. Allowing people the right to freely express opinions in a reasonable manner is part of being a mature democratic society.


Apparently, of the last 10 000 programmed speakers at universities, six were cancelled for reasons that relate to content. Universities already have legislation to protect freedom of speech. The idea they need government intervention is silly.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The Queens speech proposed legisation to ensure universities can no longer so easily "no platform" controversial speakers. Allowing people the right to freely express opinions in a reasonable manner is part of being a mature democratic society.



That's all very well, but the people running the system will just vet the speakers before they're actually invited.


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## Jacob (12 May 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> .... Allowing people the right to freely express opinions in a reasonable manner is part of being a mature democratic society.





Phil Pascoe said:


> That's all very well, but the people running the system will just vet the speakers before they're actually invited.


It's political.It's part of the same argument going on in this thread about "cancel culture" and so on.
But nobody is obliged to give anyone a platform and the few that were cancelled were for good logistical reasons.
Some speakers were objected to very actively but were still allowed to speak, sometimes with added security.
It's a non issue but being seen to pretend to do something about it will appeal to the right.


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## D_W (12 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> But nobody is obliged to give anyone a platform and the few that were cancelled were for good logistical reasons.



This becomes a little bit more sticky when a platform is funded to some extent by tax dollars or is getting a tax break. 

Of course, if you disagree with the people they banned, then "it's a non-issue". 

Where I went to college, there were a few roving preachers doing what preachers do - standing on sidewalks at a regular basis and saving souls (you get to decide whether you believe they were or not, that's not my bag). 

At some point, the university decided that the whole preacher thing was offensive because they would talk about sins of various types and tell folks who didn't believe in JC that they had no path to salvation. 

So, they created "Free speech areas" on the campus where free speech is allowed. Of course, none of these areas were where students congregate between classes. 

But, "they had good logistical reasons and it's a non-issue"

They also had a Christmas tree at one point in the President's office, along with other cultural Christmas season things. the President decided to declare that there was no budget to set up the Christmas tree, so it would no longer be done. The other items continued. He then blamed it on a volunteer group (called "ambassadors" - college students who gave campus tours for minimum wage - to prospective future students. The ambassadors volunteered to decorate the tree as they had done any prior year, and his response again was "we don't have the budget to decorate the tree". 

Lack of grasp of reality or intentional dancing around it reminded me of a poster on here who goes by a name that rhymes with schmakob, but I won't say who it is.


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## D_W (12 May 2021)

(I actually had no issue at the time with the College not setting up a Christmas tree - it was partially taxpayer funded and that seemed reasonable. What I didn't get too much of a charge out of was their inability to ever tell the reason that they did certain things. Every single message was like a contest to see how ridiculously dishonest they could be).


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## RobinBHM (12 May 2021)

I find Christmas ads a bit surreal, those ones which show a family at the dining table....and seem to include about half a dozen different ethnicities and religions. 

I can see it's meant to be inclusive, but it does make me wonder if such a family exists.


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## D_W (12 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I find Christmas ads a bit surreal, those ones which show a family at the dining table....and seem to include about half a dozen different ethnicities and religions.
> 
> I can see it's meant to be inclusive, but it does make me wonder if such a family exists.



I'd be all for using the actual ones if they want to show them. We've got American and Chinese covered. I don't think that's enough of a combination for them, though.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I find Christmas ads a bit surreal, those ones which show a family at the dining table....and seem to include about half a dozen different ethnicities and religions.
> 
> I can see it's meant to be inclusive, but it does make me wonder if such a family exists.


And the father is usually black, the mother white. Not very PC the other way around.


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## AJB Temple (12 May 2021)

Every now and again you come across a teacup with a storm going on inside it. 

Usually there is a bystander wielding the spoon that started it all, accompanied by a chief stirrer who professes ignorance of the terminology in use. We have all of this here.


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## D_W (12 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> And the father is usually black, the mother white. Not very PC the other way around.



Wait, what? I tried when I was younger but couldn't ever generate any female interest. What wasn't PC about that? It wasn't a PC move, though. My motto was, I'm looking for a shape - don't care about color. (I'm not sure if you could say that now because if you prefer a certain shape, you're discriminating against people who aren't that shape?). 

Sooner or later, it will be unacceptable to be attracted to anyone because it disadvantages people you're not attracted to, and we will be told about the ethical sacrifice of choosing a partner we don't find particularly attractive to overcome the discrimination of thinking certain ladies are pretty.


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## Spectric (12 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> suggesting that women are better suited to a particular job


The one that springs to mind is getting pregnant and having a baby or two. You can only blame mother nature for some of these issues, physically men used to be heavier built and more capable of manual work, nothings changed except we have automation and power tools so yes woman can now do most jobs men do and thank god we no longer rely on manual labour because the male race is getting more feable and not only becoming more female, but actually wanting to be female.


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## Jacob (12 May 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> Every now and again you come across a teacup with a storm going on inside it.
> 
> Usually there is a bystander wielding the spoon that started it all, accompanied by a chief stirrer who professes ignorance of the terminology in use. We have all of this here.


You mean me?  
No I really didn't know what "Woke" was about. I do now. I'm all for it! Wake up everybody!


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## Spectric (12 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> No I really didn't know what "Woke" was about. I do now. I'm all for it! Wake up everybody!


Is that just some more male cow excrement someone has come up with to explain something that did not exist in the first place? In engineering you can have pass/fail and in life you have normal, the norm and abnormal, something which has gone wrong and nolonger fits within one of natures categories so we create a new category that has absolutely no rhyme or reason other than to make the abnormal feel it belongs.


----------



## RobinBHM (12 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> Is that just some more male cow excrement someone has come up with to explain something that did not exist in the first place? In engineering you can have pass/fail and in life you have normal, the norm and abnormal, something which has gone wrong and nolonger fits within one of natures categories so we create a new category that has absolutely no rhyme or reason other than to make the abnormal feel it belongs.


The pronoun you are looking for is "they"


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## woodieallen (12 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> I find it hard to argue with this, which is taken from a Facebook post wrongly attributed to Ron Howard.


I agree with that. But too many people take offence when it's not directed at them. Isn't that equally wrong?


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## Spectric (12 May 2021)

Ok as no one has defined Woke, so what is wrong with just saying " that guy is aware of social and racial justice" rather than saying that guy is woke! sounds bloody stupid and is another case of lazyness amongst the young who want to reduce sentences to one word.

*Woke* (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) *is* a *term* that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice. ... In March *2021*, the periodical Les Echos described the English *word woke* as among *words* adopted by the younger generation in France, that it believes to indicate a "societal turning point" there.


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## John Brown (12 May 2021)

woodieallen said:


> I agree with that. But too many people take offence when it's not directed at them. Isn't that equally wrong?


I have no idea what that means. If people.sincerely take offence when it's not directed at them, then yes, that's wrong, but are you suggesting that they're doing it on purpose? I don't understand what point you are making.
I'm 68. My three stepdaughters refer to me as "woke" sometimes. I take it as a compliment. I think it means that I'm not a bigoted ******* who says "I've called them queers/darkies/chinks all my life and I'm not about to change my ways now".
But the people who do think like that are never going to even be receptive to the suggestion that their terminology might offend, let alone actually change. So I'm stirring up electrons to no useful purpose.


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## John Brown (12 May 2021)

Interesting censorship there. Only the @sshole word is deemed offensive...


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## thetyreman (12 May 2021)




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## Trainee neophyte (13 May 2021)

I am, by default, very defensive when it comes to people telling me how to think. I don't like it.

That being said, I'm not a fan of people being rude. Alf Garnet isn't my idea of a good laugh for that reason. I also didn't get the video posted earlier about Top Gear presenters - it just seemed agressive and unpleasant, although the comedian seemed to be very pleased with his thinking. However, as has been expressed by many, there is a constant fear of saying the wrong thing, or worse - thinking the wrong thing. When it comes to jokes, sometimes the very wrongness of the thought is what makes it funny. A joke is a story with two narratives, but the second narrative is the suprise - the twist that was unexpected. Sometimes the twist is forbidden thinking, which is why racists, bigoted, etc jokes work. If it wasn't funny, they wouldn't be jokes, and if it wasn't forbidden thinking, they wouldn't be funny.

As more and more thoughts become forbidden, more and more inappropriate jokes will be created from the very censorship the thought - police are trying to impose.


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## pidgeonpost (13 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Meanwhile, elsewhere on a woodworking forum someone talks about wood.
> 
> I think I'll go over there and leave you all to get angry about whatever it is you're getting angry about.


Yes, feeling the same way myself. It seems that just about any thread on UK Workshop is capable of being hijacked and turned into a combat zone. Seriously thinking of heading off elsewhere.
And before someone tells me 'Well you don't have to read it', it's true, I don't, but all too often a thread that is helpful, informative, or interesting just turns into a slanging match.


----------



## Chris152 (13 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> If people.sincerely take offence when it's not directed at them, then yes, that's wrong, but are you suggesting that they're doing it on purpose?


I disagree, tho 'taking offence' may be the wrong words. If we see a wrong being visited on someone else, are we supposed to turn a blind eye, or are we right to take an interest and speak/ act accordingly? It's a pretty grim view of our society if the former's the case, I'd think.

Which sort of leads to your point, pidgeonpost - at least as I see it. I find it hard to ignore things that strike me as important, and as being wrong, based in all kinds of misunderstanding/ prejudice/ laziness/ whatever. And yes, some threads seem to degrade to such a low level of exchange that it's hard to even look at them. I guess the best thing that can be said for those threads is that they give an interesting insight into how some people think. But I agree, some of this stuff casts a nasty shadow over the whole forum.


----------



## Jacob (13 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> Ok as no one has defined Woke, so what is wrong with just saying " that guy is aware of social and racial justice" rather than saying that guy is woke! sounds bloody stupid and is another case of lazyness amongst the young who want to reduce sentences to one word.
> 
> *Woke* (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) *is* a *term* that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice. ... In March *2021*, the periodical Les Echos described the English *word woke* as among *words* adopted by the younger generation in France, that it believes to indicate a "societal turning point" there.


It's just a bit of harmless slang, like "trendy" or "far out". Interesting that it worries so many people. Maybe that's just the first step in becoming "woke"?


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## Daniel2 (13 May 2021)

It is interesting that what is essentially a complimentary term,
has morphed into an insult.


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## Jacob (13 May 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I am, by default, very defensive when it comes to people telling me how to think. I don't like it.


You are fairly belligerent yourself


> That being said, I'm not a fan of people being rude. Alf Garnet isn't my idea of a good laugh for that reason.


Well yes it is cringe making now - people ARE more "woke" nowadays, whether they like it or not.
It was very clever satire in its day and was an awakener in itself. But some didn't get it and thought he was just a normal decent chap surrounded by an id iot family!


> As more and more thoughts become forbidden, more and more inappropriate jokes will be created from the very censorship the thought - police are trying to impose.


Boys will be boys!


----------



## Jacob (13 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> It is interesting that what is essentially a complimentary term,
> has morphed into an insult.


Not an effective insult however.
May be intended as an insult by some but no matter how much they bang on about it, could still be accepted as a compliment by others!


----------



## John Brown (13 May 2021)

Chris152 said:


> I disagree, tho 'taking offence' may be the wrong words. If we see a wrong being visited on someone else, are we supposed to turn a blind eye, or are we right to take an interest and speak/ act accordingly? It's a pretty grim view of our society if the former's the case, I'd think.
> 
> Which sort of leads to your point, pidgeonpost - at least as I see it. I find it hard to ignore things that strike me as important, and as being wrong, based in all kinds of misunderstanding/ prejudice/ laziness/ whatever. And yes, some threads seem to degrade to such a low level of exchange that it's hard to even look at them. I guess the best thing that can be said for those threads is that they give an interesting insight into how some people think. But I agree, some of this stuff casts a nasty shadow over the whole forum.


Once again, I'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with.
But to get back to the original question, I find a lot of the jokes to be totally unfunny. Most I've seen before, which is inevitable when you reach a certain age. Some I find slightly offensive, but I don't get depressed about it.
I personally don't think any subject is off limits, joke wise, as long as it's funny, but that's highly subjective, I know.
There appear to be a few forum members with whom I would not relish a visit to the pub, and I am certain the feeling is reciprocated, but when I ask some dumb question about wood work, the same people are helpful, kind and polite.
I am slowly getting better at keeping out of these threads. I only jumped into this one because I genuinely agree with the quote I cut and pasted, in that if you find out that a term you use hurts someone, how the heck does it hurt you to change your terminology?


----------



## Chris152 (13 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> Once again, I'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with.


The bit I quoted, and for the reason I gave.


----------



## John Brown (13 May 2021)

Chris152 said:


> The bit I quoted, and for the reason I gave.


Sorry. I've re read it twice, and I still don't get it.


----------



## Chris152 (13 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> Sorry. I've re read it twice, and I still don't get it.


No problem, perhaps I've phrased it badly? 
You wrote: 'If people.sincerely take offence when it's not directed at them, then yes, that's wrong'; 
I wrote: 'I disagree, tho 'taking offence' may be the wrong words. If we see a wrong being visited on someone else, are we supposed to turn a blind eye, or are we right to take an interest and speak/ act accordingly? It's a pretty grim view of our society if the former's the case, I'd think.'
So I'm saying it's not wrong to 'take office' when we recognise someone is being offensive to someone else/ another group etc.


----------



## fiddlerjon (13 May 2021)

thetyreman said:


> the less politically correct and offensive, the more I like it, we are being controlled by 'woke' people, it really annoys me how easily people are offended thesedays, it's also getting worse and making me be more offensive deliberately with jokes especially.


I agree. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. The old nursery rhyme “sticks and stones...” is of relevance here. Develop some resilience and get on with life.


----------



## fiddlerjon (13 May 2021)

Garno said:


> Jacob Jacob Jacob
> 
> Over the last few years I recall many posts from yourself that showed zero consideration for other peoples feelings.
> 
> ...


Hear, hear!


----------



## Chris152 (13 May 2021)

fiddlerjon said:


> I agree. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. The old nursery rhyme “sticks and stones...” is of relevance here. Develop some resilience and get on with life.


Turn a blind eye. Easy.
Words constitute a large part of our consciousness; our consciousness plays a large part in our actions. Sticks and stones etc often follow words and names.
Still, easier to not think about it if it doesn't directly affect you.


----------



## John Brown (13 May 2021)

Chris152 said:


> No problem, perhaps I've phrased it badly?
> You wrote: 'If people.sincerely take offence when it's not directed at them, then yes, that's wrong';
> I wrote: 'I disagree, tho 'taking offence' may be the wrong words. If we see a wrong being visited on someone else, are we supposed to turn a blind eye, or are we right to take an interest and speak/ act accordingly? It's a pretty grim view of our society if the former's the case, I'd think.'
> So I'm saying it's not wrong to 'take office' when we recognise someone is being offensive to someone else/ another group etc.


Ok. I think the problem lies with our respective interpretations of the post I was commenting on.
I was thinking along the lines of taking offence when none was intended, you were, probably more accurately, reading it as taking offence on behalf of a third party.


----------



## Daniel2 (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not an effective insult however.
> May be intended as an insult by some but no matter how much they bang on about it, could still be accepted as a compliment by others!



I quite agree


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's just a bit of harmless slang, like "trendy" or "far out".



Yeh back in the 50's and 60's they were really "groovey" grandad.......................  

Edit: just come back to this, an honest question, I know Jacob's age, I know he's cantacarous, however he has spirit and gives as good as he gets, I suspect he is a grandad....................... is calling him grandad offencive?
I really hope the answers NO, if it's a majority saying yes then I'm doomed and off to hell, if I am on my way I shall have a good crack on the way there,


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yeh back in the 50's and 60's they were really "groovey" grandad.......................
> 
> Edit: just come back to this, an honest question, I know Jacob's age, I know he's cantacarous, however he has spirit and gives as good as he gets, I suspect he is a grandad....................... is calling him grandad offencive?
> I really hope the answers NO, if it's a majority saying yes then I'm doomed and off to hell, if I am on my way I shall have a good crack on the way there,



He may think kids are a capitalist plot to keep disadvantaged workers working for the man.


----------



## Terry - Somerset (13 May 2021)

The only thing I am intolerant of is intolerance!

Over the decades what is acceptable has changed markedly - language and behaviours. A search for banned or inappropriate words and phrases was difficult - whilst guidance and rules are obviously applied by the media, it seems no site dare publish them. 

The BBC has some editorial guidelines - several pages in fact - full of worthy ideas but no list of what is acceptable or banned.

So we are left somewhat in the dark as to what is currently acceptable. I have no desire to deliberately or inadvertently cause distress or offence. 

Shrill anger from the Woke brigade to a minor breach possibly exceeds offence given by the language or behaviour to which they object. Woke is inherently intolerant. 

Never mind - most things come full circle. It won't be long until society recognises and supports a pressure group formed to promote the needs of the beer swilling, car loving, free thinking, woodworking, mature male community.


----------



## Jacob (13 May 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The only thing I am intolerant of is intolerance!
> 
> 
> .............. Woke is inherently intolerant..


You can't have both ways! What you are saying is that the only things you are intolerant of is intolerance AND the woke concept i.e. being "alert to injustice in society, especially racism", as it is described/defined.

There's a neat summary here of how "woke" has been "weaponised" i.e. given a very different alternative meaning, which explains much talking at such cross purposes on threads like this one.








How the word ‘woke’ was weaponised by the right


The term is meant to denote an attentiveness to important issues. But the likes of Laurence Fox and Toby Young have begun using it in a very different way




www.theguardian.com


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> There's a neat summary here of how "woke" has been "weaponised"



If it's that easy to screw over Labour they really are doomed, never to be heard of again.


----------



## Rorschach (13 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> If it's that easy to screw over Labour they really are doomed, never to be heard of again.



Well someone managed to convince Labour that telling their voters they are racist bigots was a winning strategy.


----------



## FrankD (13 May 2021)

Garno said:


> Jacob Jacob Jacob
> 
> Over the last few years I recall many posts from yourself that showed zero consideration for other peoples feelings.
> 
> ...


Brilliant. I couldn't have put it better myself. I try not to offend people and, in general, have no sympathy for people who do. However, I think the 'woke' section of society have had too much of a voice for far too long. Political correctness in oppressive and will permit only one type of thought, action or opinion (i.e. theirs) and anyone who dares to disagree (however well-founded their beliefs) is automatically branded as being 'racist', 'sexist' or god-knows-what-else-ist. Unfortunately, the BBC seems to have climbed on that bandwagon. Hopefully, one day, the woke enthusiasts will be put in their place and made to realise that they, and their attitudes, are at least as bad as those they purport to be protesting against.


----------



## Peterm1000 (13 May 2021)

FrankD said:


> Brilliant. I couldn't have put it better myself. I try not to offend people and, in general, have no sympathy for people who do. However, I think the 'woke' section of society have had too much of a voice for far too long. Political correctness in oppressive and will permit only one type of thought, action or opinion (i.e. theirs) and anyone who dares to disagree (however well-founded their beliefs) is automatically branded as being 'racist', 'sexist' or god-knows-what-else-ist. Unfortunately, the BBC seems to have climbed on that bandwagon. Hopefully, one day, the woke enthusiasts will be put in their place and made to realise that they, and their attitudes, are at least as bad as those they purport to be protesting against.


Just a final attempt to come back to the original point... There are forum members posting old fashioned racist and sexist jokes and comments. I'm not talking about people wanting to refer to tradesmen as tradespeople or insisting on herstory instead of history. The mods do a very good job at removing the posts so a lot of people won't have seen them, but they continue to come back. I see several posts every week.


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

I guess I have a question - the humorous posts about spouses nagging and stuff, is that off limits now, too? Was it on here that I saw the one (sorry, there are joke threads all over forums) about archaeologists being ladies because they can bring up stuff from the past at will?

I find things like that humorous, because I observed it as my mothers go-to with my dad. if she picked a fight with him, and it made no sense, she could seamlessly go to anything in the last 20 years that had nothing to do with the conversation and get him to give up. (my wife doesn't do it, except with inaccuracy - like "you never had this foul mouth before we were married".

Actually, I did - and she did, too. She actually tries to build up the past me as being better than I was to make me feel like I need to make the current me match the past one.


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

That was a serious question, by the way, is that now out of bounds, too?


----------



## Chris152 (13 May 2021)

D_W said:


> That was a serious question, by the way, is that now out of bounds, too?


Depends on context I'd imagine. If I said something along those lines to my daughter she'd almost certainly ignore me, maybe roll her eyes; if you said it to her, she'd probably tell you to f off.
eta - when I say 'you', I don't mean you personally DW, I mean anyone else more or less.


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Depends on context I'd imagine. If I said something along those lines to my daughter she'd almost certainly ignore me, maybe roll her eyes; if you said it to her, she'd probably tell you to f off.



I may be the exception here, but I wouldn't tell a lady a joke about dredging up the past unless I knew she did it. Like, I'd do it to my mom, but it wouldn't be a gender generalization joke, it would be "hey mom, that's you!".


----------



## Peterm1000 (13 May 2021)

D_W said:


> I guess I have a question - the humorous posts about spouses nagging and stuff, is that off limits now, too? Was it on here that I saw the one (sorry, there are joke threads all over forums) about archaeologists being ladies because they can bring up stuff from the past at will?
> 
> I find things like that humorous, because I observed it as my mothers go-to with my dad. if she picked a fight with him, and it made no sense, she could seamlessly go to anything in the last 20 years that had nothing to do with the conversation and get him to give up. (my wife doesn't do it, except with inaccuracy - like "you never had this foul mouth before we were married".
> 
> Actually, I did - and she did, too. She actually tries to build up the past me as being better than I was to make me feel like I need to make the current me match the past one.




I think you have to go back and read the posts from the 2 women who posted in this thread (and interestingly had chosen to post very little before). One of them said that the jokes didn't bother her but the banter about "the missus" did. My experience is that women find the jokes pretty dull and contribute to a locker room atmosphere that makes them feel excluded. I guess if people are happy for them to feel diminished and excluded, they should use whatever language you want.


----------



## Jacob (13 May 2021)

This thread is pretty grim. It's about opposition to racism and sexism but we have quite a crowd asserting their "right" to continue in much the same appalling way.
They claim to be "victims" of "wokeism", which is pretty pathetic really. 
It's like saying "it's all very well going on about racism/sexism but what about us poor racists/sexists?"  
Times they are a changin' - but slowly in some parts of the community; yesterday's men (and women less often!).


----------



## AJB Temple (13 May 2021)

I doubt women feel either excluded or care. I get included in female conversations sometimes (most of my colleagues are female lawyers) and they happily use words that men think are verboten about women, compare men in all respects, can be very rude about them, and have a very active sense of humour. Men are being a bit precious here. Women are pretty resilient. After all they gave birth to you.


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I think you have to go back and read the posts from the 2 women who posted in this thread (and interestingly had chosen to post very little before). One of them said that the jokes didn't bother her but the banter about "the missus" did. My experience is that women find the jokes pretty dull and contribute to a locker room atmosphere that makes them feel excluded. I guess if people are happy for them to feel diminished and excluded, they should use whatever language you want.



I found one. I didn't find the other. When people talk about grief with the missus or being pleased not to have one, I've never seen that as offensive. Half of the mothers on my dr's softball team are divorced, and they do talk freely about how happy they are to be away from their husbands. I don't assume that's offensive - I assume they're happy to be away from their husbands. It's none of my business to see if I can get enough information from them to justify their statement. 

At some point, people have to make a decision about things like that to think about whether the person saying them actually intended to offend them. When someone makes race-based comments, they are being offensive and they know it. When they say they're happy to not have a missus, it's probably because they had a bad experience and it's a generalized comment. 

True story - we are old school here. Usually have a "part of the neighborhood" party each summer where my short street gets together and talks to people they may not even like that much - we still do, so that we don't forget about each other. It turns out, it helps us know each other better and we like each other better. One of the neighbors down the street cared for her elderly aunt (99 at the time, now deceased, but she did get to 100). I constantly heard, "when did your husband pass", and she'd say "WHAT!?" (she was hard of hearing, too, but I think that was part of her joke that follows). I thought it was kind of rude to assume she had a husband because what if she didn't...

..and she didn't. Which was always followed with "oh, that's terrible...why didn't you ever get married? you're such a nice person." Every single time, she would say "why wasn't I ever married? Just lucky I guess!!" and crack a big smile. It was never younger people asking her if she was married, because we don't care. That's her business and not mine, but folks from the generation between mine and hers thought that everyone had to follow the rules and do the same thing, and she didn't. I wouldn't say it was offensive to tell her what a shame it was, just that it was rude. 

Same as the follow ups "oh, so you never had kids? Such a shame, I couldn't imagine going through life without my kids". 

Well, why don't you just tell the person that you think they were a failure. Maybe she didn't like men, and maybe if that's the case, we shouldn't ask. Why not ask her what she did for a living instead? Jeez. 

Life is a bit easier in terms of being offended or upset about someone else's comments if you consider all of the reasons that they could make them and then assume they have good intentions.


----------



## Rorschach (13 May 2021)

D_W said:


> "oh, so you never had kids? Such a shame, I couldn't imagine going through life without my kids".



Oh I get so wound up when people ask me that.


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> I think you have to go back and read the posts from the 2 women who posted in this thread (and interestingly had chosen to post very little before). One of them said that the jokes didn't bother her but the banter about "the missus" did. My experience is that women find the jokes pretty dull and contribute to a locker room atmosphere that makes them feel excluded. I guess if people are happy for them to feel diminished and excluded, they should use whatever language you want.



Btw, I sometimes have to encourage the wife's divorced mom friends to continue on with their discussion about what they don't like about men, because it's not going to offend me, and I'm not going to go tell their ex-husbands. Please do not make me feel (my thoughts toward them) that somehow, my sitting here watching my daughter's game means you can't speak freely.


----------



## Fitzroy (13 May 2021)

Saying your wife should be an archeologist as she is so good at bringing up the past also works, even standing on stage and saying it that way would get a lot of laughs, I expect changing the joke to my partner should be ...etc.... would get even more laughs as I bet it’s not man to wife only thing. Standing on stage and saying all women should be archaeologists etc is not more funny, unless you want to appeal to male bravado that all their wives are a bunch of old moaning nags who spoil all their fun. To label all of one sex as something for a laugh is lazy humour, if you cause distress to even one person just for your amusement is it worth it?

I’ve had some great conversations about this with the opposite sex, other races, sexualities etc and my main takeaway is that the important thing is not getting it right or wrong, but being aware and thoughtful and honest when we screw it up.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> This thread is pretty grim. It's about opposition to racism and sexism but we have quite a crowd asserting their "right" to continue in much the same appalling way.



Put simply, what a load of boolloxs.
Your posts are aimed to stir things up, your agenda is left politics, you play the game all the time and are now totally transparent.
You have refused to acknowledge / answer the multiple accusations of "posting hurtful / spiteful comments", you stick your head in the sand and pretend it's others when it's you.
The real shame is forums appear to be a game for you, I admit your excellent at it and always seem to acheive your goals even if it hurts others, I don't think you care as long as you "win".


----------



## Jacob (13 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Put simply, what a load of boolloxs.
> Your posts are aimed to stir things up, your agenda is left politics, you play the game all the time and are now totally transparent.
> You have refused to acknowledge / answer the multiple accusations of "posting hurtful / spiteful comments", you stick your head in the sand and pretend it's others when it's you.


I've asked many times for people to give me examples of the hurtful/spiteful comments I'm accused of, but get no response.
It's not something I do. Never have, never will, intentionally at least.
I admit to being opinionated and sometimes annoying people but I don't do personal attacks.
See if you can find an example - and no I haven't gone back and edited them out - they simply are not, and never were there.
On the other hand I get a continual stream of of critical comments - even in just this one thread, starting with your own!
I do answer back occasionally. oop yours Bobby!


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I admit to being opinionated and sometimes a bit pushy but I don't do personal attacks.



LOL, woke speak at it's best.

The old boy who touches a womans buttocks and says, I've never sexually harassed a woman but I am a very touchy feely person........................


----------



## Jacob (13 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> LOL, woke speak at it's best.
> 
> The old boy who touches a womans buttocks and says, I've never sexually harassed a woman but I am a very touchy feely person........................


You've lost me there. What's that about? What is "woke speak" exactly?


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> See if you can find an example - and no I haven't gone back and edited them out - they simply are not, and never were there.



Jacob, open your ears mate, plenty here think you snipe, stir, belittle, you're an exceptionally clever man, you know what your doing, you love it, if petrol can be poured on the fire you will. I believe you go out of your way to deliberately upset people, for your own enjoyment

There are none so blind as those who will not see.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> On the other hand I get a continual stream of of critical comments - even in just this one thread, starting with your own!



Yes this is one of your tricks Jacob, turn it around so it's you who is being picked on, very clever technique. *Look at me everybody, Bobby is picking on me*

Kids use it but tend to grow out of it when they reach adulthood.


----------



## Jacob (13 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes this is one of your tricks Jacob, turn it around so it's you who is being picked on, very clever technique. Kids use it but tend to grow out of it when they reach adulthood.


I rather thought the "victims of woke" were the ones trying to do a childish trick.
Anyway I'm outa here it's going nowhere.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I thought the "victims of woke" were the ones doing the childish trick.



No it's you I'm afraid. I know i'm not the bearer of bad news as you know exactly what you are doing.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Anyway I'm outa here it's going nowhere.



Oh dear, don't you like it when a punter bits back Jacob, that's not supposed to be how your game works


----------



## John Brown (13 May 2021)

"you snipe, stir, belittle,"

I have no idea what your doctorate is in, Bob, but it sure ain't self-awareness.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> "you snipe, stir, belittle,"
> 
> I have no idea what your doctorate is in, Bob, but it sure ain't self-awareness.



I will take that on board John, if I have upset you then you have my apology. I believe I have only been heated on the brexit forum, it does me no good and therefore refuse to join the closed forum.
As I said apologies if I have sniped, stirred ot belittled.


----------



## TRITON (13 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I will take that on board John, if I have upset you then you have my apology. I believe I have only been heated on the brexit forum, it does me no good and therefore refuse to join the closed forum.
> As I said apologies if I have sniped, stirred ot belittled.





> Sorrry but if triton was in front of me in the queue I'd end up with boiled pish.............



Seems everyone is guilty of it.
But I replied with mirth rather than get upset. But I have to say to started a negativity that others took over.

Maybe right, maybe wrong, but thats my take on it.

I think we should all keep in mind the current situation thats ongoing in the world and agree than everyone is a bit on edge.  Perhaps more rone to making comments that in another tiem would have been taken with more enthusiasm.


----------



## Jameshow (13 May 2021)

I


Rorschach said:


> Oh I get so wound up when people ask me that.


If often think WHY did I have kids!! 

Cheers James


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

TRITON said:


> Seems everyone is guilty of it.
> But I replied with mirth rather than get upset. But I have to say to started a negativity that others took over.
> 
> Maybe right, maybe wrong, but thats my take on it.
> ...



In the spirit of the thread I apologise, but I think my error was being too honest (shop floor manner), that's not an excuse I suppose though. Also if you read the thread there was at least half a dozen prior to me, and not one agreeing with you. However it's me eating humble pie, I apologise.


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

Jameshow said:


> I
> If often think WHY did I have kids!!
> 
> Cheers James



I often think "I like my kids, but have zero interest in what other peoples kids are doing." Actually, I often tell my wife that so as not to hear the curated bits about other kids' accomplishments, or stories of their dads taking 2 days off of work every other week and spending $1000 to take kids to travel soccer games and stay in hotels. 

This is the new version of proving your better than other parents.


----------



## D_W (13 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> I have no idea.



Goes well with your other post of "i don't think". 

When you come in from nowhere only to take a shot at someone else, it's kind of fitting.


----------



## TRITON (13 May 2021)

Accepted and I think nothing more of it.
I know I've been guilty of the exact same thing. To everyone else I also apologize.

This threads turning into a big group hug.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 May 2021)

TRITON said:


> Accepted and I think nothing more of it.
> I know I've been guilty of the exact same thing. To everyone else I also apologize.
> 
> This threads turning into a big group hug.


Hmmmm can you say "big"............ could offend a few.........


----------



## richarddownunder (13 May 2021)

Over here, most of the jokes are at the expense of white Anglo Saxon males as you dare not offend anyone else - especially the TV ads where invariably the males are cast using Homer Simpson as a model...as they are the group (responsible for all the world's troubles apparently) that are, by some sort of definition, immune to being offended. A bit like the Irish - a sign of maturity and contentment with your place in the world IMHO? Anyway, it leads to a solution. From now on could all jokes substitute the butt of the joke with a 'Middle Age Straight White Male of medium build, without obvious disability, not bald but with (non-ginger) hair...and un-woke'. A MASWM. As an example, three MASWM's go to the pub..., or A MASWM, an Irishman and an Australian cricketer (as Australian cricketers' deserve everything they get), were thrown out of a plane with 2 parachutes etc, etc. It might dilute the punchline a bit, but no-one would be offended. Glad to have helped .


----------



## Spectric (13 May 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> I doubt women feel either excluded or care. I get included in female conversations sometimes (most of my colleagues are female lawyers) and they happily use words that men think are verboten about women, compare men in all respects, can be very rude about them, and have a very active sense of humour.


I can vouch that a shopfloor full of woman operatives is a far more dauting prospect than any engineering shop floor full of men, they will puppy, curse and swear with the best of them whilst being completely non pc. God help the young lads who walked into their domain, never the same again ! 

People all need to just learn to laugh at themselves, don't take things to serious because life really is too short and stop living in a world of make believe wearing rose tinted spectacles. Something is going very wrong with humanity, we are really coming off the rails when so much is very wrong in the world yet so many who could change it just stand bye and yet we get upset by things that are not real. I used to be scared of what lived under our stairs as a kid but I would not have taken any notice of comments sent by text if it had existed so we are getting fragile as a race. Then you have girls who disfigure themselves and look like a clown who has swallowed a sink plunger because somewhere along the line they see this as normal, but no one will say otherwise because they would be accused of something. We need characters like Alf Garnet and Steptoe to put the world to right, a return to better days and undo all the make believe shiettttte that has been generated in the last few decades.


----------



## dzj (14 May 2021)

I was hoping this thing would take a 'Least said, sooner mended' course, but 12 pages later, perhaps I
ought to say a word or 2, being the fella that posted that 'archaeology joke'.
First, If I offended anyone, I truly am sorry. It was never my intention.
Perhaps it is a generational thing, I don't know. I was born in '64, so that makes me a borderline
Boomer (there's a joke in there somewhere) and might be a bit rough around the edges, compared to the younger folks...
Anyway, I was/am under the impression that jokes used stereotypes and generalizations for the sake of brevity, to
get to the punchline in a timely manner. Hence the jokes about blondes or Irishmen or the 3 clergymen.
Is a person telling such a joke implying that all blonde women are of limited intellect and promiscuous, or that the nation that gave us Joyce and Beckett are a bunch of silly people? Of course not.
I understand a lot of things can be 'weaponized', jokes included, but in the majority of cases if you hear hooves , it's just a horse.

Peace to all.


----------



## pidgeonpost (14 May 2021)

Darn it! I've just inadvertently opened this thread after saying I'd had enough of it! I see that a couple of the usual protagonists who claimed they were 'out of it' are still very much not 'out of it'. They're still around, still at it! You know who you are....


----------



## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2021)

dzj said:


> I was hoping this thing would take a 'Least said, sooner mended' course, but 12 pages later, perhaps I
> ought to say a word or 2, being the fella that posted that 'archaeology joke'.
> First, If I offended anyone, I truly am sorry. It was never my intention.
> Perhaps it is a generational thing, I don't know. I was born in '64, so that makes me a borderline
> ...


----------



## John Brown (14 May 2021)

Monty Python at their absurdist best. It's a shame whoever posted it on YouTube(?) had to spoil the first punchline with the title.
I'm trying to remember if MP were ever accused of racism/misogyny or the like.
I know they got a lot of flak over The Life of Brian.


----------



## Gary_S (14 May 2021)

I don't regularly peruse that section and when I have done, I haven't been offended. Maybe because i wear my big boy pants when I get dressed in the morning.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2021)

We had a 120 mile round trip to see The Life of Brian - Cornwall censors wouldn't allow it to be shown here for years.


----------



## MikeJhn (14 May 2021)

There are quotes in all of Monty Python that are hard to forget "Even you main character has the same initials as the Messiah" (John Cleese) "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy" "What have the Romans ever done for us" "Stupid Englishman, I fart in your general direction" "I'm Brian and so is my wife" and many many more.


----------



## Peterm1000 (14 May 2021)

Gary_S said:


> I don't regularly peruse that section and when I have done, I haven't been offended. Maybe because i wear my big boy pants when I get dressed in the morning.


That tells me one or more of three things about you must be true

1. You haven't seen the comments because the mods have deleted them yourself
2. You don't see anything wrong with broad sweeping statements about the national characteristics of others or the use of the word n1gger in the forums (it's just a joke, innit!)
3. You are a white British man so not in the group of people being targeted.


----------



## D_W (14 May 2021)

dzj said:


> I was hoping this thing would take a 'Least said, sooner mended' course, but 12 pages later...



Oh no no! This is a natural law. All threads complaining or debating about other popular threads must grow larger than the original.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2021)

Peterm - have you thought of starting an internet forum for the perpetually offended? I'm sure there'd be a huge take up. You could get Prince Harry for a patron.


----------



## MikeJhn (14 May 2021)

I have not been a member of a Golf Club for over twenty years, but always managed to kill a joke stone dead if it started "There was an Englishman a Scotsman and a Jew" I would always ask why two had countries and the other a religion, I think that's why I am an ex-member.


----------



## Droogs (14 May 2021)

my favourite joke since I was 8 starts "there's a bhuddist monk, rabbi and a priest". it involves Dr Bobs favourite Brexit analogy and the lack of a parachute


----------



## Peterm1000 (14 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Peterm - have you thought of starting an internet forum for the perpetually offended? I'm sure there be a huge take up. You could get Prince Harry for a patron.


Firstly, I don't believe 99% of the people on this forum think it's OK to characterise people of a different race by the way they speak or look. But some do - because they keep posting this stuff.

So I could set up a forum for the perpetually offended... or the people posting these comments could head off to one of the many internet forums for the perpetually offensive. The strange thing is there don't seem to be web forums for the perpetually offended, but there are plenty for the perpetually offensive (e.g. Stormfront, 8chan etc.). Maybe it's because being perpetually offensive isn't something that's tolerated in real life. The people who have these views can only post them on the internet.


----------



## D_W (14 May 2021)

No matter how polite a forum of perpetually offended people could be, there would still be a lot of thread reporting. 

Just as there is a small slice of folks who go to the internet (after behaving "normally" in the real world) just to vent intentionally inappropriately, there's a similar sized group who have trained themselves to look for things that bother them as a matter of ego or to cover something else up. 

They're both covering up a lack of meaningfulness in their daily lives.


----------



## NickDReed (14 May 2021)




----------



## Jacob (14 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> my favourite joke since I was 8 starts "there's a bhuddist monk, rabbi and a priest". it involves Dr Bobs favourite Brexit analogy and the lack of a parachute


I read that as a monk, a _rabbit_ and a priest! I thought this must be a new joke I've never heard before!
My first joke was "what's brown and sounds like a bell........?" Still gets 8 yr olds into hysterics. Answer to be revealed next week.


----------



## Jacob (14 May 2021)

NickDReed said:


> View attachment 110501


Looks like everybody is nodding off. What's happened to the anti wokeism liberation front?


----------



## John Brown (15 May 2021)

Garno said:


> Jacob Jacob Jacob
> 
> Over the last few years I recall many posts from yourself that showed zero consideration for other peoples feelings.
> 
> ...


If anyone has actually tried to stop you from referring to your son or daughter by those terms, or has tried to stop you using the words boy or girl, then I sympathize. I can't imagine what that must be like. I've never experienced anything like that. Where do you live? You should contact the police, it can't be right for you to be subjected to that sort of pressure.


----------



## Droogs (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Looks like everybody is nodding off. What's happened to the anti wokeism liberation front?


much like using 14 push sticks and the weight out of a washing machine for balance while sawing tapioca or 96 grits of different stone or paper to sharpen an axe, they probably can't be bothered and are enjoying the rather funny Prince Charming joke


----------



## cowtown_eric (15 May 2021)

I have no wish or inclination to follow any of the "off-topic" or "joke" threads in any forums I visit. Ergo, I don't feel offended by any of them, and don't want to spend my time separating the wheat (good joks) from the chaff (negative cultural comments)

Eric
in the colonies


----------



## JobandKnock (15 May 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I don't look at the Joke thread, I suspect it's all boomer humour.


Isn't that ageist? Or is that OK?


----------



## Droogs (15 May 2021)

cowtown_eric said:


> I have no wish or inclination to follow any of the "off-topic" or "joke" threads in any forums I visit. Ergo, I don't feel offended by any of them, and don't want to spend my time separating the wheat (good joks) from the chaff (negative cultural comments)
> 
> Eric
> in the colonies


Dear @cowtown_eric in the colonies,
You really should read the prince charming joke it is funny. My missus laughed when I told it to her and she's an english teacher and a stand up comedian.


----------



## Spectric (15 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> If anyone has actually tried to stop you from referring to your son or daughter by those terms, or has tried to stop you using the words boy or girl,


Tell me if I am wrong but when I last did biology I thought humans can only mate and produce offspring with another human and therefore the outcome has to be Male or Female, Boy or Girl that grow up to be Men, Women or right angles. This means you can refer to your kids by their names, or " He / she has done very well at school" unless they have badly misbehaved when other terms may appear. If you don't agree then go and have an argument with mother nature.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (15 May 2021)

^^^^ lifted from today's Times -

A law student who said that women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men is being investigated by her university. Disciplinary action is being taken against Lisa Keogh, 29, over “offensive” and “discriminatory” comments that she made during lectures at Abertay University, Dundee.


----------



## NickDReed (15 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> ^^^^ lifted from today's Times -
> 
> A law student who said that women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men is being investigated by her university. Disciplinary action is being taken against Lisa Keogh, 29, over “offensive” and “discriminatory” comments that she made during lectures at Abertay University, Dundee.



At what point do those who purport to be liberal realise they are actually fascists?


----------



## Garno (15 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> If anyone has actually tried to stop you from referring to your son or daughter by those terms, or has tried to stop you using the words boy or girl, then I sympathize. I can't imagine what that must be like. I've never experienced anything like that. Where do you live? You should contact the police, it can't be right for you to be subjected to that sort of pressure.



You seem to doubt this is happening in today's society.

I can't say I blame you for that really as it does sound incredulous.

Imagine if someone proposed doing something like that in the USA there would be uproar.

Let's take it one step further and just for a moment imagine that the White House were to propose something like that. Fortunately the leaders of the western world would never even suggest such a thing let alone implement it, because if they did they will only be adding fuel to Wokism, it will be like giving stupidity the green light, Every WOKE activist throughout the world would assume it was the sensible thing to do.

We are so fortunate something like that would never happen.

......................... Oh wait a moment ........................

Oh well 









A new proposal in the House of Representatives could eliminate gendered language from its rules


The proposal put forth by House Democrats swaps gendered words like "chairman" for gender-inclusive ones like "chair."




www.businessinsider.com













House of Representatives poised to swap out "he" and "she" for gender-neutral terms


The proposal comes as transgender and non-binary candidates are being elected around the country.




www.axios.com













House Democrats’ ‘gender neutral’ rules for 117th Congress defy logic


House Democrats keep coming up with ideas that are bound to sink their already low approval ratings to new depths, possibly giving Republicans a majority in the 2022 election.




www.washingtontimes.com













Tulsi Gabbard blasts new House rules on gender neutral language as ‘height of hypocrisy’


Former Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) spoke out Monday evening against the House’s recent ban on gendered language, saying it denies “the very biological existence of women.”W…




thehill.com





Looks like we are screwed!!!


----------



## TRITON (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I read that as a monk, a _rabbit_ and a priest! I thought this must be a new joke I've never heard before!


There is a joke pertaining to this.

Walk into a bar etc etc,and the rabbit goes 'Hold on, I think Im a spelling mistake'


----------



## JobandKnock (15 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A law student who said that women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men is being investigated by her university. Disciplinary action is being taken...


Perhaps she should have said "allegedly" or "in general" or "average" or simply "many". Personally, if I were to call my spouse a "woman with a vagina", I think she'd clock me one for being rude and ignorant


----------



## Gary_S (15 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Oh no no! This is a natural law. All threads complaining or debating about other popular threads must grow larger than the original.





Peterm1000 said:


> That tells me one or more of three things about you must be true
> 
> 1. You haven't seen the comments because the mods have deleted them yourself
> 2. You don't see anything wrong with broad sweeping statements about the national characteristics of others or the use of the word n1gger in the forums (it's just a joke, innit!)
> 3. You are a white British man so not in the group of people being targeted.


I see your comment and know 1 thing about you. You are being offended on somebody else's behalf. "Targeted" is such a ridiculous word in this context. Jokes are all about exaggeration. When somebody on here that falls into whatever category it was that you find offensive expresses their distress, I will take more notice. Meanwhile the internet is full of things one might find distasteful. If it hurts your sensibilities too much you could always try switching off and actually doing some woodwork.


----------



## D_W (15 May 2021)

AT my prior employer, two people were fired in the 8 years that I was there for saying things that were off color or emailing something that was off color. That didn't seem that odd to me. 

As time went on, I found out that in both cases, the person they said them to thought they were funny, but someone else heard about it and complained. 

When HR investigated, they asked both parties and the recipients maintained they saw no issue and the third party (same person in both cases) remained offended on behalf of the people who weren't and pushed the issue (the person was an attorney - I'm not, by the way, but they were, and pressed based on the far reaches of company policy). Both individuals were eventually terminated - the people who weren't offended weren't dumbfounded, and the person who got both fired was frustrated because they thought they should've been fired immediately and were on the lookout then for more things that would offend them to affect change.

I wish the paperwork would've gotten switched resulting in the firing of the complainer. 

We ended up all getting training because of it, which was idiotic. The HR person leading the training came on a day that the complainer was on PTO (which was probably on purpose) and she relayed to us that any complaint that isn't dropped after an initial conversation has resulted in severing employment 100% of the time during her tenure (she was a district HR leader, not just one location). If the person who "offended" isn't fired, the one who complains usually quits (in a minority of cases, the complainer ends up getting terminated).


----------



## Spectric (15 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A law student who said that women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men is being investigated by her university.


Would that same student be in trouble if they said that the Earth is really flat and not a sphere, that is a statement of fact because biologically women do have vaginas and is what nature gave them in order to fulfil one of natures most fundamental objectives and that is continuation of the species, no vagina and you must be a male. It is also true albeit debatable that in most cases men are stronger than women and again nature gave men a heavier build to allow them to do more manual work such as protection of the species to ensure reproduction is not impacted, unfortunately nature may have got some of this wrong because we are now way over populated as a planet, a boat can only take so many people before it capsizes.


----------



## artie (15 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> we are now way over populated as a planet,


Do you think we are over populated or just managing resources badly?


----------



## Daniel2 (15 May 2021)

I think it's a combination of both @artie 
But, I don't want to be a part of the depopulation.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (15 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Both individuals were eventually terminated ...



Bit harsh, that.


----------



## Peterm1000 (15 May 2021)

Gary_S said:


> I see your comment and know 1 thing about you. You are being offended on somebody else's behalf. "Targeted" is such a ridiculous word in this context. Jokes are all about exaggeration. When somebody on here that falls into whatever category it was that you find offensive expresses their distress, I will take more notice. Meanwhile the internet is full of things one might find distasteful. If it hurts your sensibilities too much you could always try switching off and actually doing some woodwork.


Really? You KNOW that do you? I have no idea how....


----------



## Spectric (15 May 2021)

artie said:


> Do you think we are over populated or just managing resources badly?


We are very over populated, infact population growth is now out of control and some of this is because we have good medical practices and we are not constantly losing people through war, conflict or tribal disputes. It has become a race that has no winers, population growing whilst natural resources are in decline and we continously have to intensify farming to support the people but not equally or fairly otherwise there would not be such an issue of poverty and starvation in the world. Question is when will nature step in and fix it, already shown her potential with Covid so what has she got in store next?


----------



## Daniel2 (15 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> ... losing people through war, conflict or tribal disputes. It has become a race that has no winers, population growing whilst natural resources are in decline ....



I'm not usually one for pointing out spelling errors, but I think you
missed the "h" in winers.
HTH


----------



## Jacob (15 May 2021)

Garno said:


> You seem to doubt this is happening in today's society.
> .....


It isn't.


----------



## Garno (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It isn't.



You are once again correct as you are about the world being flat.


----------



## Jacob (15 May 2021)

Garno said:


> You are once again correct as you are about the world being flat.


You have been told not to call your children "boy" or "girl"? By whom, when was this, did you object or question this? 
What papers are you reading?


----------



## Jacob (15 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> ^^^^ lifted from today's Times -
> 
> A law student who said that women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men is being investigated by her university. Disciplinary action is being taken against Lisa Keogh, 29, over “offensive” and “discriminatory” comments that she made during lectures at Abertay University, Dundee.


It was in the Daily Mail, The Sun and The Times and hence very likely to be total nonsense or a serious distortion. This is where all this "wokeist" paranoia seems to come from. Very weird. Seems to have set off a whole gang w*tting themselves with imaginary fears. I suppose that's the idea - a very traditional MSM media activity - it sells papers and keeps people hooked. Immigrants is the big one, it used to be single mothers on benefits, moslem terrorists, the EU, now its fears of "wokism". Whatever next?
All a bit pathetic IMHO. Half a generation living in fear and anxiety because it sells papers and keeps their readers politically docile.


----------



## NickDReed (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It was in the Daily Mail, The Sun and The Times and hence very likely to be total nonsense or a serious distortion.



Out of interest, are you open to the idea that articles in The Guardian, The Observer and The Independent are likely to be nonsense or a serious distortion?


----------



## JobandKnock (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Immigrants is the big one, it used to be single mothers on benefits, now its fears of "wokism".


As far as immigrants go, come onto any large building site and you'll may experience first hand why some working class people are sensitive about immigrants. People who are middle class and/or comfortably off just don't see or experience this, so presumably think it is the media stirring things up.

Whilst the Daily Mail is right wing, carpet munching stuff - the Grauniad is just as bad, but to the left/woke these days, I find


----------



## Jacob (15 May 2021)

NickDReed said:


> Out of interest, are you open to the idea that articles in The Guardian, The Observer and The Independent are likely to be nonsense or a serious distortion?


Certainly am!
Stopped reading the Guardian/Observer some years ago, mainly because of their frantic campaigning against Corbyn. It's not the paper it was, and sadly missed by many. The Independent is a loose cannon and publishes a range of stuff, take it or leave it.
Don't have a daily paper anymore but there's masses of alternative media; Novara Media, Double Down News, The Jacobin, Tribune, Morning Star etc.


----------



## Garno (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> You have been told not to call your children "boy" or "girl"? By whom, when was this, did you object or question this?
> What papers are you reading?



You know it was a generalisation, You do that very well so I know that you know it.

I don't read newspapers for the simple reason that they are politically biased again something you know all to well. I like to think that I am intelligent enough to look at all options and opinions therefore not make posts based only on what a political party says.

Sometimes looking at all sides neutrally gives us a much more balanced view of things, shame you have not yet tried it.

So what papers do you read? in fact I already know that the only reading you do is tied into political propaganda, how do I know this? Easy because you spout off about it at every opportunity.

Doctor Bob has said in this thread that your posts are designed to stir things up and I fully agree with him he goes on to say you are excellent at it, I disagree with that part, you are far from being excellent you have not even reached the passable stage I think he meant to put predictable instead of excellent. Don't bother acting confused and all innocent as it is very transparent these days. You have become just like a certain political party in that you have not changed the script despite the world moving on. That Sir is the nicest and least insulting thing I can say and I am happy to get it off my chest


----------



## Phil Pascoe (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It was in the Daily Mail, The Sun and The Times and hence very likely to be total nonsense or a serious distortion.



" Keogh, a final-year student, fears that any sanction could end her dream of becoming a human rights lawyer. Her case is being backed by Joanna Cherry QC, the SNP MP for Edinburgh South West and deputy chairwoman of the Lords and Commons joint committee on human rights, who described the situation as farcical."

I suppose Ms. Cherry must have got it all wrong, then.


----------



## Jacob (15 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> " Keogh, a final-year student, fears that any sanction could end her dream of becoming a human rights lawyer. Her case is being backed by Joanna Cherry QC, the SNP MP for Edinburgh South West and deputy chairwoman of the Lords and Commons joint committee on human rights, who described the situation as farcical."
> 
> I suppose Ms. Cherry must have got it all wrong, then.


Ms Cherry seems to be saying it is farcical - which is what I would have expected on the face of it.


----------



## NickDReed (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Don't have a daily paper anymore but there's masses of alternative media; Novara Media, Double Down News, The Jacobin, Tribune, Morning Star etc.



And these don't push their own agenda?


----------



## doctor Bob (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Stopped reading the Guardian/Observer some years ago, mainly because of their frantic campaigning against Corbyn. It's not the paper it was, and sadly missed by many.



How very odd, nearly every article you feel the need to share is from the guardian, what are the chances of that when you don't read it.

Out of curiosity how is the "bring back Jeremy" campaign going? I'm all for it, how do I vote for it?


----------



## Jacob (15 May 2021)

NickDReed said:


> And these don't push their own agenda?


They certainly do, but it tends to be a very different agenda to the MSM. I make my own mind up about what to think - easier if you have several points of view presented.

Occurred to me on the theme of imaginary fears that if this was 17th or 18th century the MSM and this thread would be about witchcraft, evil spirits, sinister foreigners, the little people, robbers, magic spells, pirates, smugglers, etc etc. In other words - strangely similar! Same irrational fears , different cast of suspects.


----------



## artie (15 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> We are very over populated, infact population growth is now out of control



Who or what would you suggest is competent to control it?



Spectric said:


> population growing whilst natural resources are in decline and we continously have to intensify farming to support the people



Natural recourses are being squandered at an alarming rate, Is it necessary to travel to a job where "one" works 8 or 10 or more hours per day to create gadgets which will end up in land fill in a very short time to earn a little money so that one can go buy ones self some of the gadgets that will end up in land fill in a very short time all the while being taxed at a true rate of around 85%.

The intensified farming I believe is more to do with higher profits than feeding the world.


----------



## doctor Bob (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Occurred to me on the theme of imaginary fears



this was mine






Turned out just to be a bad dream.


----------



## Cabinetman (15 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> We are very over populated, infact population growth is now out of control and some of this is because we have good medical practices and we are not constantly losing people through war, conflict or tribal disputes. It has become a race that has no winers, population growing whilst natural resources are in decline and we continously have to intensify farming to support the people but not equally or fairly otherwise there would not be such an issue of poverty and starvation in the world. Question is when will nature step in and fix it, already shown her potential with Covid so what has she got in store next?


 I was reading about the the drop in sperm count in men in developed countries recently, it’s already dropped more than 50% since the 1970s and a projection showed that it would be at zero by 2045. 
The theory is that it is pharmaceuticals in the drinking water that is causing it.
So anyway it probably means that we don’t have much to worry about with over population.


----------



## D_W (15 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Bit harsh, that.



Has a different meaning here, i suppose!!


----------



## John Brown (15 May 2021)

Garno said:


> You know it was a generalisation, You do that very well so I know that you know it.
> 
> I don't read newspapers for the simple reason that they are politically biased again something you know all to well. I like to think that I am intelligent enough to look at all options and opinions therefore not make posts based only on what a political party says.
> 
> ...


That's not a generalisation, it's a gross exaggeration, and borderline hysterical.
In my opinion.


----------



## Garno (15 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> That's not a generalisation, it's a gross exaggeration, and borderline hysterical.
> In my opinion.



Gross exaggeration is that when someone exaggerates more than a normal exaggeration?
Borderline hysterical is an exaggeration in my opinion.

I take it you agree with the rest of the post or are you going to go through it line by line?

How about commenting on those links showing the proposals or is the White house bordering on hysteria in your opinion?

You are showing typical WOKE behaviour in my opinion.

LOL gross exaggeration


----------



## Spectric (15 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I was reading about the the drop in sperm count in men in developed countries recently, it’s already dropped more than 50% since the 1970s and a projection showed that it would be at zero by 2045.
> The theory is that it is pharmaceuticals in the drinking water that is causing it.
> So anyway it probably means that we don’t have much to worry about with over population.


Yes I have heard that it has something to do with the female contraceptive pill, like everything else it goes through a body, down the toilet, into the sea and returns as drinking water and also ends up in the food chain, could be why so many male children grow up with female traits and come across as not so masculine.


----------



## Jacob (15 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes I have heard that it has something to do with the female contraceptive pill, like everything else it goes through a body, down the toilet, into the sea and returns as drinking water and also ends up in the food chain, could be why so many male children grow up with female traits and come across as not so masculine.


Sounds like another bit of anti woke paranoia! 
In the old days they'd blame the evil eye, or offending the little people.
Is this the thing that Garno is so desperately anxious about? Boys being turned into girls, or even worse!


----------



## EddyCurrent (15 May 2021)

We have been very lucky for a good number of years now that we have had the time and energy to contemplate at length utter rubbish.
Previous generations have not been so lucky as they have had world wars to deal with.
If I had a time machine I would join the previous generations.


----------



## Cabinetman (15 May 2021)

EddyCurrent said:


> We have been very lucky for a good number of years now that we have had the time and energy to contemplate at length utter rubbish.
> Previous generations have not been so lucky as they have had world wars to deal with.
> If I had a time machine I would join the previous generations.


 Eddy, not really quite sure what you’re thinking is utter rubbish?


----------



## Adam W. (15 May 2021)

EddyCurrent said:


> We have been very lucky for a good number of years now that we have had the time and energy to contemplate at length utter rubbish.
> Previous generations have not been so lucky as they have had world wars to deal with.
> If I had a time machine I would join the previous generations.



Until they sent you to Ypres to get shot at.


----------



## MikeJhn (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> We are very over populated, infact population growth is now out of control and some of this is because we have good medical practices and we are not constantly losing people through war, conflict or tribal disputes. It has become a race that has no winers, population growing whilst natural resources are in decline and we continously have to intensify farming to support the people but not equally or fairly otherwise there would not be such an issue of poverty and starvation in the world. Question is when will nature step in and fix it, already shown her potential with Covid so what has she got in store next?


I object to calling Nature "Her" whatever next,"Farther" Time.


----------



## Daniel2 (16 May 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> I object to calling Nature "Her" whatever next,"Farther" Time.



I think it's perfectly logical.
Nature creates, or gives birth, to everything contained in our world.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I was reading about the the drop in sperm count in men in developed countries recently, it’s already dropped more than 50% since the 1970s ...
> So anyway it probably means that we don’t have much to worry about with over population.



It's not the developed Countries that are the problem.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Sounds like another bit of anti woke paranoia!
> In the old days they'd blame the evil eye, or offending the little people.
> Is this the thing that Garno is so desperately anxious about? Boys being turned into girls, or even worse!







__





News - New York Times Post







www.nytimespost.com





I hope you aren't still using those despotic, imperial jackbooted inches in your woodwork. That's racist, that is. You should use the European metric system, so beloved of Napoleon and the Germans...there must be some sensible logic here somewhere, because the British Empire was despicable and all Brits owe the entire world reparations for what was done 150 years ago. Or something. 









Shashi Tharoor's Oxford Union speech - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org








__





What the UK owes in reparations - Caribbean Reparations Commission


By Hasit Shah (Deputy editor, global finance and economics–Quartz) The day before the United Kingdom finally left the European Union, Bell Ribeiro-Addy gave her first speech in Parliament. The debate that day was about the broader future of [...]




caricomreparations.org





That will be _your_ money that will be handed over - were they _your_ crimes?


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Over population isn't the problem it's the solution.
It happens everywhere through the living world plants animals that if the going gets tough the reproduction rate goes up.
Hence the most stressed human communities are the most over populated - the stress is the _cause_ the overpopulation is the reaction. 
The reason is simple - it's the species which has evolved to survive, not the individual - we all die.
So, given the worst that climate change can throw at us, there may be a few survivors, that's all the counts.


----------



## Auldfart2010 (16 May 2021)

Wow! my first deleted post. The MP sketch was to show how they addressed racism, by blowing it up. I think I'll just sit back and watch the bigotry being acted out. Anyone for popcorn?


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> ...
> 
> That will be _your_ money that will be handed over - were they _your_ crimes?


Our crimes today are in not dealing with the fallout from colonisation and slavery - racism and discrimination being the most obvious, but the widespread poverty and destruction of the "colonies" and other places is still something which people are living and dying with. The consequences are dominating people's lives _now_ and were not something which stopped neatly in 1833








How Britain is facing up to its hidden slavery history


Several stories are bringing attention to the nation’s involvement in the slave trade, including recent play The Whip. Holly Williams asks why they are so important to tell now.




www.bbc.com




Not to mention more recent activities such as the invasion of Iraq and a host of other intrusions into other people's lives and deaths.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

The widespread poverty and destruction of the "colonies" and other places is still something which people are living and dying with? They've had their own governments for decades and virtually all have managed to make things worse. I suppose that's our fault as well?


----------



## Daniel2 (16 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The widespread poverty and destruction of the "colonies" and other places is still something which people are living and dying with? They've had their own governments for decades and virtually all have managed to make things worse. I suppose that's our fault as well?



It sort of is, yes.
We impeded their natural development as independant nations/regions.
And, in many cases, continue to do so.


----------



## Chris152 (16 May 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I hope you aren't still using those despotic, imperial jackbooted inches in your woodwork. That's racist, that is. You should use the European metric system, so beloved of Napoleon and the Germans...there must be some sensible logic here somewhere, because the British Empire was despicable and all Brits owe the entire world reparations for what was done 150 years ago. Or something.


It seems to be one of a series of things _under consideration_, part of an anti-racist ambition at the university. Surely they should be allowed to consider it? I mean, that's what universities are supposed to do, explore possibilities, hopefully extend understanding. Clearly the Torygraph wants to take it out of context and represent it as another outrageous 'woke' event, but that's got little to do with the functioning of a university.








‘Oxford and Colonialism’ hub to improve the University’s anti-racist future by better understanding imperial past | University of Oxford


A new web portal has been set-up to bring together the wide range of initiatives running across the collegiate University that engage with Oxford’s colonial past and its ongoing manifestations.




www.ox.ac.uk


----------



## Droogs (16 May 2021)

No it's not. The view point you are putting forward would mean that a Serb born today would be responsible and accountable once they are an adult of my age for the actions of Serbs during the 1990s Balkans conflicts. That is ludicrous


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The widespread poverty and destruction of the "colonies" and other places is still something which people are living and dying with? They've had their own governments for decades and virtually all have managed to make things worse. I suppose that's our fault as well?


Very largely the fault of the west, yes. Look at all the argy bargy in the middle east for instance.
African states are recovering from the abuse of 100s of years but it won't happen over night it takes generations to build a new world. The least we could do is accept refugees willingly, as they escape from the world which we have stirred up and made unliveable. We are also most responsible for climate change as compared to the under developed world.


----------



## Chris152 (16 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> It sort of is, yes.
> We impeded their natural development as independant nations.
> And, in many cases, continue to do so.


They clearly continue to suffer the consequences. Look at the straight lines we drew in the sand in the middle east for example, demarcating borders regardless of tribal, ethnic and religious groups at odds with each other. We see the consequences daily on our news reports from the region.


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> No it's not. The view point you are putting forward would mean that a Serb born today would be responsible and accountable once they are an adult of my age for the actions of Serbs during the 1990s Balkans conflicts. That is ludicrous


Can't speak for the Serbs but in principle anyone born today is going to grow up in a world full of displaced and disadvantaged people. Could say tough titty it's nowt to do with me but it wouldn't go down well, and it might be your turn next.


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## Droogs (16 May 2021)

Jacob you are just stirring, no sane person who is emotionally functional is going to stand by and allow people such as refugees to suffer without offering some form of help out of just common empathy and humanity. However being told they have to make reperations because of events that occurred 50+ years before they were born is because it is their fault is ludicrous. Just as the Serb example do we go around telling every living German the events of 33-45 are their fault, they must be ashamed of who they are and feel personal guilt for those events, no we don't.


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## Garden Shed Projects (16 May 2021)

These nations were not peaceful when the British Empire arrived. They were fighting each other before we got there and are fighting each other after we leave. 
The Empire left infrastructure, roads and railways behind when it pulled out. It is possible they were in a better position after wards. 
The repetitions argument is weak at best.


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## Daniel2 (16 May 2021)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> These nations were not peaceful when the British Empire arrived. They were fighting each other before we got there and are fighting each other after we leave.
> The Empire left infrastructure, roads and railways behind when it pulled out. It is possible they were in a better position after wards.
> The repetitions argument is weak at best.



You mean, like we were better off after the Romans had visited us ?


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> It sort of is, yes.
> We impeded their natural development as independant nations/regions.
> And, in many cases, continue to do so.


Really? Take Zimbabwe as an example. Once one of the richest and most productive countries in Africa. Now an economic disaster. Why, because of rampant corruption by the Africans running it. A pattern sadly all to often repeated. Please explain how that is the fault of the previous colonial power.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> Jacob you are just stirring, no sane person who is emotionally functional is going to stand by and allow people such as refugees to suffer without offering some form of help out of just common empathy and humanity. However being told they have to make reperations because of events that occurred 50+ years before they were born is because it is their fault is ludicrous. Just as the Serb example do we go around telling every living German the events of 33-45 are their fault, they must be ashamed of who they are and feel personal guilt for those events, no we don't.


Germany has made huge changes in attitude to take account of their responsibility for the past and is now a civilised and humane place to live, and a principle agent in the EU - the most civilising feature of modern Europe.


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> These nations were not peaceful when the British Empire arrived. They were fighting each other before we got there and are fighting each other after we leave.
> The Empire left infrastructure, roads and railways behind when it pulled out. It is possible they were in a better position after wards.
> The repetitions argument is weak at best.


Absolute fantasy.
You need to read a bit of history. Many of these places were in fact peaceful and developing until we turned up. We committed acts of genocide and completely destroyed many communities, we enslaved millions and killed them in the process, when slavery ended we went back and took over their lands, we destroyed their economies .. and so on.
Try this if you want to get up to speed Verso
I can understand why the anti-wokists are reluctant to revise their view of our history, it's a terrible story. It's argued that the empire wasn't even profitable except for suppliers to the military needed to sustain it by force.


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## planesleuth (16 May 2021)

As you drive through Debyshire you will soon be able to identify Jacob's house. Tumble down old shed to the side of the house full of old planes and chisels purchased on ebay that are never used because he is too busy ranting on forums indoors. Rickety old flag pole and tatty old EU flag, adorned with red ribbons and fluttering in the breeze, targeted from the road and covered in mud and rotten egg splashes. Three migrant families living in the basement, two in the downstairs with five more families above and in the loft because its always best to practice what you preach. Old copies of the Daily Mail for sale by the gate to make a bit of extra pocket money. They are snapped up by old locals eager to add anti woke articles and Royalist trash to their smelly old scrap books. Wait! There's someone at the window! No, its not Jacob. Its just Marley's ghost.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Really? Take Zimbabwe as an example. Once one of the richest and most productive countries in Africa. Now an economic disaster. Why, because of rampant corruption by the Africans running it. A pattern sadly all to often repeated. Please explain how that is the fault of the previous colonial power.


The previous colonial power had been exploiting and destroying the country since Rhodes. Takes time to rebuild after more than 100 years of tyranny. The British had left them no legacy worth having. They've only just worked their way through one president since independence. Early days.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Absolute fantasy.
> You need to read a bit of history. Many of these places were in fact peaceful and developing until we turned up. We committed acts of genocide and completely destroyed many communities, we enslaved millions and killed them in the process, when slavery ended we went back and took over their lands, we destroyed their economies .. and so on.
> Try this if you want to get up to speed Verso
> I can understand why the anti-wokists are reluctant to revise their view of our history, it's a terrible story. It's argued that the empire wasn't even profitable except for suppliers to the military needed to sustain it by force.


Jacob
once again you ignore some inconvenient truths. Slavery for example. Do you think white men went out into the hinterland in Africa to capture slaves? No they did not. The fact is that Africans had been taking and selling slaves amongst themselves for millennia before the white man turned up. Now of course we increased this trade enormously, something which is undoubtedly a shameful part of our history. But the fact is there were black Africans only too pleased to go out and capture their fellow black Africans and sell them to us. The chief of the Ashanti tribe recently apologised for the part they played as one of the most active slave takers. As for economies, most former colonies were in fairly good shape when we departed with functioning infrastructure, law and order etc. Few remained that way for long. Unfortunately the all to often repeated theme in Africa has been for things to be governed by tribal considerations. So when a particular tribe becomes ascendant, their first order of business has been to dispossess, marginalise or even murder those belonging to other tribes. We have seen this in Rwanda, the Congo and elsewhere. You cannot seriously suggest that the colonial powers practiced active genocide in this way, that is utter nonsense. In other parts of the world similar things go on prompted by religion. Don't misunderstand me, colonialism is not something I support in any way. The sad fact is that the human species is not very pleasant. Every society as far back as we know engaged in slavery for example, and we have constantly busied ourselves killing one another for the most stupid reasons. You only have to look at what is happening today in Myanmar, or China. These are unfortunately manifestations of the basic lack of respect humans have always had for one another, as indeed was the whole idea of conquering other countries and making them colonies. Individuals can get along fine, while nations seem to find it more difficult. Personally I cannot imagine ever getting to hate someone enough to want to kill them based on religion, race or tribe. Sadly many do. But to suggest that every colony was some rural idyll until the evil conquerors showed up is just utter nonsense.


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## Garden Shed Projects (16 May 2021)

It is true that the British Empire committed some terrible acts. I am saying that it was neither the first nor last regime to commit such crimes. 
If reperations are in order we could use the money that we counterclaim from France for the Norman invasion, Norway for the Viking hoards Nd the Romans for what they did.
The reason there are such calls is because we kept better records.


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## dzj (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Germany has made huge changes in attitude to take account of their responsibility for the past and is now a civilised and humane place to live, and a principle agent in the EU - the most civilising feature of modern Europe.



I don't know, I kinda like the idea of Germany being a perpetual fall guy. (Just kidding  )
I can't say I hold the human condition in very high regard. Britain seized a historical/ geographical
opportunity in the XIX century. Given half a chance most nations would've done the same.
No need for apologies or reparations. It was the way of the world and still is in many ways.
There's just better PR nowadays.


----------



## Daniel2 (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Really? Take Zimbabwe as an example. Once one of the richest and most productive countries in Africa. Now an economic disaster. Why, because of rampant corruption by the Africans running it. A pattern sadly all to often repeated. Please explain how that is the fault of the previous colonial power.



Zimbabwe is, indeed, a very good example.
The present corruption of the country is a consequence of having
natural development put on hold for a couple of centuries. They are in
an infant state, regarding the development of national hierarchy and
mature authority. Not helped, by their despotic dictator who held,
undemocratically, on to his position since we so graciously gave them
their independance. It was us, incidentally, that put that dictator in place.
Perhaps, if we hadn't interfered in the first place, the country as we have
come to know it, wouldn't even have existed. It was us, who set off around
the world, arbitarily drawing borders wherever it suited us. The concept
of "countries" & "borders" is entirely notional and fabricated.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> However being told they have to make reparations because of events that occurred 50+ years before they were born is because it is their fault is ludicrous ...



It is indeed strange that Germans and Japanese alive today shouldn't be blamed for WW2 but somehow I am personally responsible for Slavery, the Boer Wars, the Black Hole of Calcutta and the Irish Potato Famine.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Jacob
> once again you ignore some inconvenient truths. Slavery for example.



This is good.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It is indeed strange that Germans and Japanese alive today shouldn't be blamed for WW2 but somehow I am personally responsible for Slavery, the Boer Wars, the Black Hole of Calcutta and the Irish Potato Famine.


Nobody said you were personally responsible what on earth gave you that idea! 
But we are collectively responsible for the fallout from past misadventures in terms of the lives people lead today. Just think of the Windrush fiasco as one small example of where we failed.
Ditto the Japs and the Germans. And we do blame them for WW2 still, as far as I know


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## Droogs (16 May 2021)

The J word above is just as unacceptable as the N or P words Jacob and no we do not blame the current generation of Japanese or German people for those events.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> The previous colonial power had been exploiting and destroying the country since Rhodes. Takes time to rebuild after more than 100 years of tyranny. The British had left them no legacy worth having. They've only just worked their way through one president since independence. Early days.


how exactly did we destroy the country? And what exactly needed rebuilding?Under us Rhodesia was an extremely prosperous country, able to feed its own population and export food and other goods all over Africa and the world. All they needed to do economically following independence was to carry on. Instead Mugabe sought to basically asset strip the country for his own benefit, and that of his cronies. The result is that the country is now a total shambles, unable to even feed its own people adequately. Much more recovery needed following the years of independence that was ever needed following our departure.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

I find this woke idea of pulling down statues and so forth pretty stupid. Does anyone suggest we should demolish the remains of Auchwitz? No, because it serves as a reminder of what took place. It seems to me that it is much more sensible to treat things in this way. I am not comparing colonialism with the holocaust, merely saying that these things are better left in place as a point of learning and discussion.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Droogs said:


> The J word above is just as unacceptable as the N or P words Jacob and no we do not blame the current generation of Japanese or German people for those events.


Well said that man!


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## Trainee neophyte (16 May 2021)

The history of humans is the history of slavery. Slavery was finally, after millenia, abandoned because the business model stopped working. It became more profitable to move to the wage-slave model, and leave the serfs to find their own food and shelter. Interestingly slavery is now back on the agenda because the wage - slave model is starting to fail. We do live in interesting times.









Signs of things to come


What do the gig economy, European football, and thefts from cars and churches have in common? At face value, very little; but each, in their way provides a warning sign of how our economy will attempt to respond to the growing crisis of surplus energy. For those readers not familiar with the...




consciousnessofsheep.co.uk






Jacob said:


> Ditto the Japs and the Germans. And we do blame them for WW2 still, as far as I know


I think you will find Great Britain declared war on Germany, and sactions on Japan forced them to attack the USA, almost certainly the intended result. WW2 in europe was a direct result of the idiocy of reparations for WW1 (could there be a lesson to be learned there?), and Germans are still paying reparations to Jews around the world, and to Israel, which is ironic given that Israel is now the facist, racial supremacy monster that the Germans had a go at so long ago.


> *About Verso*
> Verso Books is the largest independent, radical publishing house in the English-speaking world, publishing one hundred books a year.



I will probably not read anything published by them, because it will have only the most tenuous link to reality. Sorry.


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> how exactly did we destroy the country? And what exactly needed rebuilding?Under us Rhodesia was an extremely prosperous country, able to feed its own population and export food and other goods all over Africa and the world. All they needed to do economically following independence was to carry on. Instead Mugabe sought to basically asset strip the country for his own benefit, and that of his cronies. The result is that the country is now a total shambles, unable to even feed its own people adequately. Much more recovery needed following the years of independence that was ever needed following our departure.


Zimbabwe was a prosperous country before Rhodes. And yes Mugabe was a disaster. But "asset stripping" was what colonisation was all about. We didn't go there to improve things! Rhodesia didn't do apartheid in the same way as SA but instead had a limited franchise based on income and property. 15 year long war needed to get the vote.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I find this woke idea of pulling down statues and so forth pretty stupid. Does anyone suggest we should demolish the remains of Auchwitz? No, because it serves as a reminder of what took place. It seems to me that it is much more sensible to treat things in this way. I am not comparing colonialism with the holocaust, merely saying that these things are better left in place as a point of learning and discussion.


The statue wasn't the issue, it just became a focus for the BLM protest and lot of people suddenly found they were learning far more about slavery than they knew before. A great success! I thought Marc Quinn's replacement was brilliant. Similarly Auschwitz is there for educational reasons.
Colonisation and the holocaust are compared in "Exterminate All the Brutes" - scroll down here; Sven Lindqvist - Wikipedia
recently made into a film haven't seen it yet. Exterminate All the Brutes (2021 film) - Wikipedia


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Zimbabwe is, indeed, a very good example.
> The present corruption of the country is a consequence of having
> natural development put on hold for a couple of centuries. They are in
> an infant state, regarding the development of national hierarchy and
> ...


I have to agree. One of the things we never seen to learn is that we can't force other people to organise themselves as we do. We seek to impose our thoughs, whether it be economics, or democracy in people to whom they are totally alien. As for countries the concept may be artificial, but it has been around for a heck of a long time. In nature you see animals maintaining their own territories, and I guess you could view it as an extension of that originally. Certainly doesn't help when politicians redraw the map without much thought to redistribution of the people within the lines, Israel and the Balkans being examples of where that hasn't gone too well.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> ......
> 
> I will probably not read anything published by them, because it will have only the most tenuous link to reality. Sorry.


Actually The Many Headed Hydra is a really good read - pirates, shipwrecks, revolutions, land grabs, white slavery, Ireland, desperate tails of derring-do, it rolls on and on. I'd really recommend it just for interests sake even if you don't believe a word of it!


----------



## gregmcateer (16 May 2021)

Coincidentally, I'm reading a really interesting, well researched, (and luckily very readable, rather than high brow academic), book on the Empire. Not a 'lefty rant' as the "get over yourselves, it was in the past, not my fault, blah blah" anti-woke brigade will assume. It explains and discusses the complexities and nuance of the British Empire and also doesn't shy away from some of the atrocities. And no, we can't just leave it in the past and deny any relevance of it today. 
Very much worth a read, if anyone wants to self educate, rather than just entrench their views. 
Empireland by Sathnam Sanghera (a mainstream British journalist from Wolverhampton of Punjabi extraction).


----------



## Garden Shed Projects (16 May 2021)

Exodus by Paul Collier is also an interesting read on the effects of Migration.


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## thetyreman (16 May 2021)

friends: what are you doing this weekend Ben? 

Me: Oh just arguing about genocide and wokeness in the off topic section of a WOODWORKING forum cheers.


----------



## dzj (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I have to agree. One of the things we never seen to learn is that we can't force other people to organise themselves as we do. We seek to impose our thoughs, whether it be economics, or democracy in people to whom they are totally alien. As for countries the concept may be artificial, but it has been around for a heck of a long time. In nature you see animals maintaining their own territories, and I guess you could view it as an extension of that originally. Certainly doesn't help when politicians redraw the map without much thought to redistribution of the people within the lines, Israel and the Balkans being examples of where that hasn't gone too well.


Those maps were redrawn with a lot of thought. The folks with the rulers were all but silly or misinformed.


----------



## selectortone (16 May 2021)

Just about the entire map of the modern day Middle East was drawn up by a Frenchman and an Englishman with a ruler during WW1.









Why border lines drawn with a ruler in WW1 still rock the Middle East


Writer Tarek Osman traces many of the current problems in the Middle East to the secret Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

thetyreman said:


> friends: what are you doing this weekend Ben?
> 
> Me: Oh just arguing about genocide and wokeness in the off topic section of a WOODWORKING forum cheers.


Never mind, at least next week you can do it in the pub.


----------



## Spectric (16 May 2021)

There is one thing you can do with history and that is talk about it but what has been done is now history and cannot be changed, a fixed event in time forever but it should be possible to learn from it but we don't seem to bother and continue to make the same mistakes.


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## AJB Temple (16 May 2021)

There was an interesting discussion of history on radio 4 yesterday, talking about Boadicea. We all surely know that recorded history is not necessarily true, complete or fair. It is generally written from the biased perspective of the winner or any battle or the most successful of any event. It omits large parts of a balanced perspective and rarely considers nuance. Frequently it fails to record facts that would be useful or at least interesting to future generations. Take Boadicea - despite her name being known to all, and mispronounced by many, we actually know almost nothing definitive about her.


----------



## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The history of humans is the history of slavery. Slavery was finally, after millenia, abandoned because the business model stopped working. It became more profitable to move to the wage-slave model, and leave the serfs to find their own food and shelter. Interestingly slavery is now back on the agenda because the wage - slave model is starting to fail. We do live in interesting times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bit of a simplistic view of how the war started. Two major miscalculations, Hitler assuming that we wouldn't actually go to war over the fate of Poland, and both us and the Americans not anticipating that having led the Japanese down the road to industrialisation, they would be prepared to go to war when we tried to rein them in. I agree that the terms of Versailles gave the Nazis a valuable tool in terms of propaganda. It was a shame Kitchener didn't survive the first world war, as he had always urged magnanimity in victory. He feared that too harsh a punishment would lead to trouble down the road, and was one of the few to hold that view who had sufficient gravitas to have been taken seriously.
I don't think that in either case the grievance justified plunging the world into war. And you have to remember that in the case of Germany she had started numerous wars over the preceding years, not least of all the first world war, which had cost millions of lives. You can't entirely blame those responsible for negotiations seeking to try and prevent them ever doing it again.


----------



## Spectric (16 May 2021)

What about the Americans, in a lot of their movies they do have a tendancy to rewrite history.


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## Spectric (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Hitler assuming that we wouldn't actually go to war over the fate of Poland,


He did not realise Churchill was looking for something that he could be remembered for, Churchill probably just though a little conflict and I will be remembered for preventing Poland and such becoming German, he should have kept his nose right out of it and been more political.


----------



## gregmcateer (16 May 2021)

I think it may be tin hats and popcorn time again any moment now, with dangerous views that question the perfection of our erstwhile wartime leader


----------



## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> He did not realise Churchill was looking for something that he could be remembered for ...



Really? You actually believe that?


----------



## gregmcateer (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> It was a shame Kitchener didn't survive the first world war, as he had always urged magnanimity in victory. He feared that too harsh a punishment would lead to trouble down the road, and was one of the few to hold that view who had sufficient gravitas to have been taken seriously.



Whilst that is true, Kitchener also put in a personal order to Dr Waddell for Chinese porcelain which he was to plunder during the British invasion of Tibet. 
Complicated things, humans


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## gregmcateer (16 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Really? You actually believe that?



There are some who whisper similarly about a certain lady who became particularly attached to some islands near Argentina. 
I'm saying nothing. 

Popcorn time


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## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

And finally Godwin's reared his head.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

Making the most of something that's happening or has happened isn't quite the same as willing it or causing it to happen.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> He did not realise Churchill was looking for something that he could be remembered for, Churchill probably just though a little conflict and I will be remembered for preventing Poland and such becoming German, he should have kept his nose right out of it and been more political.


breathtakingly lack of even a basic understanding of events. Our commitment to the Poles was made prior to him even coming to power. He just took the rather old fashioned view that if you promise to do something you ought to actually do it, as opposed to many in the establishment who were quite ready to appease Hitler and to hell with everyone else. Hitler had assumed that the British were personified by invertebrates like Chamberlain, and would cave in as soon as things got difficult. If Churchill had indeed kept his and our noses out of it then we might well be having this conversation in German.


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## JobandKnock (16 May 2021)

gregmcateer said:


> I think it may be tin hats and popcorn time again any moment now, with dangerous views that question the perfection of our erstwhile wartime leader


If you go back just a generation or maybe two there were still people in some communities who would spit on the ground at the mention of the name Churchill. Granted they tended to be ex-miners who knew about Churchill's part in the Tonypandy riots and the General Strike, but he wasn't universally revered. On the other hand had Halifax become Prime Minister, we would possibly have all been speaking German by now, and at least some of those who daubed the word "Racist" on his statue would not have been alive to do so, nor had that freedom of action had they been born


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> If you go back just a generation or maybe two there were still people in some communities who would spit on the ground at the mention of the name Churchill. Granted they tended to be ex-miners who knew about Churchill's part in the Tonypandy riots and the General Strike, but he wasn't universally revered. On the other hand had Halifax become Prime Minister, we would possibly have all been speaking German by now, and at least some of those who daubed the word "Racist" on his statue would not have been alive to do so, nor had that freedom of action had they been born


Indeed. I wouldn't pretend for a moment that Churchill was universally revered, or even that he was a particularly nice individual. He was an outstanding leader in the circumstances, probably one of the best examples of "cometh the moment cometh the man" As you say there is a certain irony in people daubing graffiti on the statue of a man who did so much to ensure that they should have that right. Funny old world.


----------



## Spectric (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> If Churchill had indeed kept his and our noses out of it then we might well be having this conversation in German.


It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.


----------



## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.




Gawd! 

Germany is higher up the economic ladder because of the Mittelstand and their policy of retaining and developing businesses and keeping them in the family, compared to the British sell for a "quick buck".


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## doctor Bob (16 May 2021)

are the mods on holiday?


----------



## dizjasta (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.


Operation Sealion was intended by Germany to invade the British Isles. The comment "by getting involved" is not relevant. If the German actions of invasion had not been prevented then it is likely that beside speaking German by now all Jews, all black people, all homosexuals, all disabled people and any other persons not meeting the invaders' ideology would have been destroyed. Is this what you could accept?


----------



## doctor Bob (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> a fixed event in time forever but it should be possible to learn from it but we don't seem to bother and continue to make the same mistakes.



not me, I knocked over a cup of tea everyday last week on our lounge rug, lesson learnt, never ever let it be said bobby has spilt 8 mugs in a row.


----------



## selectortone (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.


How soon we forget. I'm old enough to appreciate that, had the Nazis won the war, life would be VERY different today. My Dad flew Beaufighters in the Med in WWII. He risked his life fighting the Nazis. I'm hugely proud of what he, and all the other brave heroes of WWII, and the millions who sacrificed their lives, gave for what we have today. It might not be perfect, but it could be a sh*tload worse.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.


My goodness, have you no idea what the Nazis did elsewhere in Europe?
or would you like to live in a world where Jews, gay people, the disabled and anyone else considered undesireable, or a worthless mouth to feed would simply be exterminated. Where you would risk a similar fate yourself for merely expressing any view critical of the regime. Don't you realise that plans for the administration of Britain under a puppet government had already been drawn up by the Nazis, along with lists of those to be rounded up immediately and disposed of. My father had the misfortune to be one of the early British troops into Belsen, and witnessed at first hand what you naively describe as"just another version of the EU". I suggest you go away and learn something about history before making such stupid remarks.


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## JobandKnock (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU...


Except that the EU doesn't imprison and murder Jews, homosexuals, Romanies, union leaders, churchman, Slavs, etc. Neither does it impress slave labour from captured PoWs and vassal nations. But other than that...

Edit: I really must keep up... At least I won't auction on eBay


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## Cabinetman (16 May 2021)

Somebody who knows about these things told me once that Chamberlain knew exactly what he was doing by appeasing Hitler and it was to give us time to re-arm.


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## Cabinetman (16 May 2021)

On Combat Dealers recently Bruce was looking at a full set of invasion plans, every British town and city everything of interest marked, power, industries everything, The Germans had been preparing to invade Britain for quite a while.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.


Nonsense, as others have pointed out!
But there is an echo of the Roman Empire in the EU. 
In 212 Emperor Caracalla granted Roman citizenship to all the free men of the empire, which extended from Hadrian's Wall to Syria.
Arguably this is what made the Roman Empire such a success for such a long time.
The equivalent of freedom of movement - the most radical thing about the EU in my opinion. Not a take over or subjugation; merely enlightened new management with new privileges in a peaceful world.
EU is likely to be still flourishing when the UK has disunited and finally returned to the dark ages, which is happening at a pace. Coincidence that woad is blue?


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> On Combat Dealers recently Bruce was looking at a full set of invasion plans, every British town and city everything of interest marked, power, industries everything, The Germans had been preparing to invade Britain for quite a while.


Lest we forget - with the help of a large number of collaborators Category:British collaborators with Nazi Germany - Wikipedia


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## RobinBHM (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> the most radical thing about the EU in my opinion.


I agree -an incredible opportunity of freedom -ability to live, work, retire in a choice of 27 other countries.

its a huge loss.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Given your previous remarks about colonialism that is an extraordinary post. Did people from Hadrians wall to Syria invite the Romans in to govern them? I think not, they conquered them and made slaves of great numbers of the population. Let's not forget that slavery was an integral part of the Roman Empire, where citizens were vastly outnumbered by slaves. As for a peaceful world I think you will find it hard to find any extended period in the history of the Roman empire when they weren't at war with somebody, or ruthlessly putting down revolts by their less enthusiastic subjects. You really need a trip to Specsavers, see if you can get some with clear lenses rather than the rose tinted ones you seem to favour.


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> Given your previous remarks about colonialism that is an extraordinary post. Did people from Hadrians wall to Syria invite the Romans in to govern them? I think not, they conquered them and made slaves of great numbers of the population. Let's not forget that slavery was an integral part of the Roman Empire, where citizens were vastly outnumbered by slaves. As for a peaceful world I think you will find it hard to find any extended period in the history of the Roman empire when they weren't at war with somebody, or ruthlessly putting down revolts by their less enthusiastic subjects. You really need a trip to Specsavers, see if you can get some with clear lenses rather than the rose tinted ones you seem to favour.


Yes to the colonialism obviously, Boudica et al. But after that they did sustain the empire in relatively civilised way, for the times at least. I picked this up from Mary Beard. I'm not seeking to defend colonialism but it's one way they managed to hang on to it. Constitutio Antoniniana - Wikipedia
Roman slavery wasn't as absolute as the British/American model and was transmutable.


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## JobandKnock (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Roman slavery wasn't as absolute as the British/American model and was transmutable.


Maybe. But was it more or less like the indented servitude system which was used to supply labour to the Americas in the early days? (and which continued to be used, after a fashion for some apprenticeships in the UK until the 1970s). As for the "British/American" model, why call it that? There were many more slaves in India, China and the Arab world who had little or no freedom


----------



## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes to the colonialism obviously, Boudica et al. But after that they did sustain the empire in relatively civilised way, for the times at least. I picked this up from Mary Beard. I'm not seeking to defend colonialism but it's one way the managed to hang on to it. Constitutio Antoniniana - Wikipedia
> "Citizens" didn't include slaves, women and a few other categories. Roman slavery wasn't as absolute as the British/American model and was transmutable - they weren't seen as an inferior class, more like indentured servants.


it's certainly true that many personal slaves were highly valued by some owners, and that many were freed by their masters as a reward for their service. But these tended to be personal maids, manservants and other as it were "front of house" slaves. As for the rest, and the Romans very civilised rule
I must have misunderstood the bit where prisoners of war were forced to fight each other to the death in 're enactments of historical battles, or be torn apart by animals for public entertainment. As of course were many "indentured servants", think they were known as gladiators but maybe I got that wrong too. And the wholesale butchery they often engaged in when putting down revolts. How many thousands of slaves did Crassus crucify in the aftermath of the slave revolt? Not sure the EU would be particularly keen on the comparison.


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Maybe. But was it more or less like the indented servitude system which was used to supply labour to the Americas in the early days?


Yes including Irish and others dispossessed


> (and which continued to be used, after a fashion for some apprenticeships in the UK until the 1970s). As for the "British/American" model, why call it that? There were many more slaves in India, China and the Arab world who had little or no freedom


Because the British/American model was what I had in mind.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> it's certainly true that many personal slaves were highly valued by some owners, and that many were freed by their masters as a reward for their service. But these tended to be personal maids, manservants and other as it were "front of house" slaves. As for the rest, and the Romans very civilised rule
> I must have misunderstood the bit where prisoners of war were forced to fight each other to the death in 're enactments of historical battles, or be torn apart by animals for public entertainment. As of course were many "indentured servants", think they were known as gladiators but maybe I got that wrong too. And the wholesale butchery they often engaged in when putting down revolts. How many thousands of slaves did Crassus crucify in the aftermath of the slave revolt? Not sure the EU would be particularly keen on the comparison.


Yes to all that but nevertheless - it is argued that Caracalla introduced a unifying element into the Roman empire which helped it survive for so long. Mary Beard said it so it must be true!


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

I'll go with whatever Mary Beard says.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I'll go with whatever Mary Beard says.


Oddly enough I was reading Mary B's book before a cycle tour of N England just before the referendum. Wallsend to St Bees and back in a big loop. We dropped in on bits of Hadrian's wall and the museum at Maryport. On view were memorials as left by departing Roman squads, from odd corners of the empire and some now returning as far as Syria.
Later on in a nice little cafe with excellent cream teas we asked the little old lady behind the counter what she thought of the pending referendum. She lit up in a rage and started going on about immigrants - "it's these Syrians you know, they've all got mobile phones". Weird coincidence.


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## doctor Bob (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Oddly enough I was reading Mary B's book before a cycle tour of N England just before the referendum. Wallsend to St Bees and back in a big loop. We dropped in on bits of Hadrian's wall and the museum at Maryport. On view were memorials as left by departing Roman squads, from odd corners of the empire and some now returning as far as Syria.
> Later on in a nice little cafe with excellent cream teas we asked the little old lady behind the counter what she thought of the pending referendum. She lit up in a rage and started going on about immigrants - "it's these Syrians you know, they've all got mobile phones". Weird coincidence.



I met a few remainers who called people who didn't agree with them "members of the german national socialist party 1933-1945", one of them was a little old man, every side has odd bods. They should all know better. These little tittle tattle stories are pointless.


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I met a few remainers who called people who didn't agree with them "members of the german national socialist party 1933-1945", one of them was a little old man, every side has odd bods. They should all know better. These little tittle tattle stories are pointless.




Life's full of stories, eh?

I thought Brexit was done and leave/remain was so last season.


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## doctor Bob (16 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Life's full of stories, eh?
> 
> I thought Brexit was done and leave/remain was so last season.



Couldn't agree more, some won't let sleeping dogs lie though.


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

Maybe, but the rift runs deep with a lot of people and it's going to take a while for many to get over it.


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## JobandKnock (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes including Irish and others dispossessed.


Actually a number of my forebears travelled to the USA as indentured labourers in the 18th century. Like many others in England, Scotland, Wales as well as other European countries they were attempting to escape the grinding poverty, constant risk of death or serious injury and shortened life spans which came with being colliers or miners. It wasn't just an Irish thing.


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## RobinBHM (16 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I thought Brexit was done


It's far from done, it's being kept from the news by Covid.


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

I realise that, but this thread is edgy enough already without adding it to the mix.


'scuse the pun.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Actually a number of my forebears travelled to the USA as indentured labourers in the 18th century. Like many others in England, Scotland, Wales as well as other European countries they were attempting to escape the grinding poverty, constant risk of death or serious injury and shortened life spans which came with being colliers or miners. It wasn't just an Irish thing.


Clearance of the Highlands, Common land enclosures, plantations in Ireland, not to mention the conquest of Wales, created a de-facto slave army of the dispossessed. Everything the British establishment did in the colonies they practiced first on the citizens of Britain, and exported many and slaves/"indentured workers" to America and/or criminalised them so they could be sent to Australia. and so on. It's in the book: Verso


----------



## Spectric (16 May 2021)

dizjasta said:


> Operation Sealion was intended by Germany to invade the British Isles. The comment "by getting involved" is not relevant. If the German actions of invasion had not been prevented then it is likely that beside speaking German by now all Jews, all black people, all homosexuals, all disabled people and any other persons not meeting the invaders' ideology would have been destroyed. Is this what you could accept?


But we do not know what would have actually happened because that timeline never occured, you cannot change the past but the present will change the future.


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It's far from done, it's being kept from the news by Covid.




Hopefully they'll finish it and move on soon so that the people who voted for it don't have their rights violated by a protesting and grandstanding minority of the populaton.
.




....


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## John Brown (17 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Hopefully they'll finish it and move on soon so that the people who voted for it don't have their rights violated by a protesting and grandstanding minority of the populaton.
> .
> 
> 
> ...


It wasn't a minority of the population. Just a.minority of voters. Not the same thing.


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## D_W (17 May 2021)

ahh, the old 'i'll make a claim and you can't prove it because they didn't vote, but if they could've it would've been different therefore brexit is illegitimate". 

Very freshman college humanities major, that.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> It wasn't a minority of the population. Just a.minority of voters. Not the same thing.


The only minority that matters.


----------



## Jacob (17 May 2021)

It's a real conundrum; what should be done when there has been a democratic decision to do something irremediably stupid and damaging?


----------



## RobinBHM (17 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Hopefully they'll finish it and move on soon so that the people who voted for it don't have their rights violated by a protesting and grandstanding minority of the populaton.
> .
> 
> 
> ...


You can sell a lie, but it can't be delivered.....so no it can't be finished.

The fisherman have certainly had their rights violated.
The people of Northern Ireland have certainly had their rights violated.
Farmers, the wine industry, "the 3 million", haulage industry, people of Holyhead.......all had their rights violated


----------



## RobinBHM (17 May 2021)

D_W said:


> ahh, the old 'i'll make a claim and you can't prove it because they didn't vote, but if they could've it would've been different therefore brexit is illegitimate".
> 
> Very freshman college humanities major, that.


We have representative democracy here in the UK, so whatever happened after the referendum could not legally have violated the rights of Brexit voters.


----------



## RobinBHM (17 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The only minority that matters.


I'm sure the fisherman of Cornwall are ecstatic with their new opportunities.


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## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

Can you not keep this stuff behind your closed doors forum set up for you.


----------



## Peterm1000 (17 May 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Germans are still paying reparations to Jews around the world, and to Israel, which is ironic given that Israel is now the facist, racial supremacy monster that the Germans had a go at so long ago.



This is at best a mischaracterization of the payments Germany is voluntarily paying to the remaining Jews who were imprisoned during the holocaust in the way the UK paid reparations to people incorrectly imprisoned as terrorists. There are no payments being made to Israel. Where did you find this idea? On Stormfront?


----------



## Phil Pascoe (17 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's a real conundrum; what should be done when there has been a democratic decision to do something irremediably stupid and damaging?



I have exactly this feeling every time Labour gets elected.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I'm sure the fisherman of Cornwall are ecstatic with their new opportunities.


The smarter ones knew they'd be hung out to dry - there's a history of it.


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## Jacob (17 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The smarter ones knew they'd be hung out to dry - there's a history of it.


So thats OK then.


----------



## selectortone (17 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's a real conundrum; what should be done when there has been a democratic decision to do something irremediably stupid and damaging?


Learn by our mistakes. Move on. Make the best of it. Stop whinging.


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## Jacob (17 May 2021)

selectortone said:


> Learn by our mistakes. Move on. Make the best of it. Stop whinging.


Get over it?


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## Daniel2 (17 May 2021)

selectortone said:


> Learn by our mistakes. Move on. Make the best of it. Stop whinging.



Oh, such is the joy of democracy


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## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

Try and side step it, that's my policy.

It's incredibly damaging to my current and future plans. I'm gradually finding a way around the huge issues it's causing, but it's proving to be very expensive.

But there you go, that's how it is and never mind. I just hope it's going to be the rip roaring success that some people imagine and Britain is going to be just like Switzerland, we'll all be called Heidi and poo triangular turds.


----------



## Daniel2 (17 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Try and side step it, that's my policy.
> 
> It's incredibly damaging to my current and future plans. I'm gradually finding a way around the huge issues it's causing, but it's proving to be very expensive.
> 
> But there you go, that's how it is and never mind. I just hope it's going to be the rip roaring success that some people imagine and Britain is going to be just like Switzerland, we'll all be called Heidi and poo triangular turds.



I agree that it is what it is, and we just have to adapt and get on with it.
That, however, doesn't remove the fact that it was a monumentally stupid thing to do.
A perfect example of how democracy reached a zenith of imperfection.


----------



## Jacob (17 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's a real conundrum; what should be done when there has been a democratic decision to do something irremediably stupid and damaging?


I'll rephrase the question.
What should have been done by the government when there was a referendum in the offing about doing something irremediably stupid and damaging?


----------



## gregmcateer (17 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Hopefully they'll finish it and move on soon so that the people who voted for it don't have their rights violated by a protesting and grandstanding minority of the populaton.
> .
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm .
I may be misremembering, but DW, I think you were pretty vocal about what we called the storming of Capitol Hill, and you were explaining they weren't REALLY troublemakers, just an ickle bit sad that their champ turned out not to be a champ


----------



## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I agree that it is what it is, and we just have to adapt and get on with it.
> That, however, doesn't remove the fact that it was a monumentally stupid thing to do.
> A perfect example of how democracy reached a zenith of imperfection.



There's nothing we can do about it, but saying people are stupid or its stupid isn't going to achieve anything.


----------



## Daniel2 (17 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'll rephrase the question.
> What should have been done by the government when there was a referendum in the offing, to do something irremediably stupid and damaging?



Well, some responsible and honest explanations of the issues by the government (all parties), to
properly inform the electorate would have been a good start.


----------



## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

Don't hold your breath.


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## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I have exactly this feeling every time Labour gets elected.



well done, fabulous memory .................... no dementia there


----------



## Daniel2 (17 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> There's nothing we can do about it, but saying people are stupid or its stupid isn't going to achieve anything.



Not seeking to achieve anything. It's simply an observation.
If I were to meet an individual lemming, they might come across as rather
rational and reasonable but, collectively..... well....


----------



## AlanY (17 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> It sort of is, yes.
> We impeded their natural development as independant nations/regions.
> And, in many cases, continue to do so.


hahaha. That is the funniest thing I have read today. Well done, Daniel2.


----------



## Keith Cocker (17 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> You mean, like we were better off after the Romans had visited us ?


Who were “we” is the question! Celts, Scoti, Picti, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Attacotti? And what about the Dubonii eh! DLM! Who apologises for what, done by who and when!!! The past is the past. Let’s learn from it but not feel responsible for it is how I see it.


----------



## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

I have fingers starting to curl in, apparantly it shows I have viking blood .................... where do I claim my money?


----------



## John Brown (17 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I have fingers starting to curl in, apparantly it shows I have viking blood .................... where do I claim my money?


If you have Viking blood, then I suppose your ancestors already "claimed" your money.


----------



## Bob Chapman (17 May 2021)

planesleuth said:


> As you drive through Debyshire you will soon be able to identify Jacob's house. Tumble down old shed to the side of the house full of old planes and chisels purchased on ebay that are never used because he is too busy ranting on forums indoors. Rickety old flag pole and tatty old EU flag, adorned with red ribbons and fluttering in the breeze, targeted from the road and covered in mud and rotten egg splashes. Three migrant families living in the basement, two in the downstairs with five more families above and in the loft because its always best to practice what you preach. Old copies of the Daily Mail for sale by the gate to make a bit of extra pocket money. They are snapped up by old locals eager to add anti woke articles and Royalist trash to their smelly old scrap books. Wait! There's someone at the window! No, its not Jacob. Its just Marley's ghost.


What is the point of this unpleasant drivel? I’m no defender of Jacob or anyone else here, you can all defend yourselves, but this seems pure spite. Why? If you can’t attack the argument, attack the man?


----------



## John Brown (17 May 2021)

D_W said:


> ahh, the old 'i'll make a claim and you can't prove it because they didn't vote, but if they could've it would've been different therefore brexit is illegitimate".
> 
> Very freshman college humanities major, that.


I imagine that's a putdown. Well done!
I was going to ask why you'd care a fig about Brexit, one way or the other. Then I remembered that we all lecture you about your silly gun laws.


----------



## AJB Temple (17 May 2021)

It was too much to hope that this forum would revert to a pleasant place. Once again childish spitefulness and name calling is polluting the atmosphere. I know it is supposedly an off topic area, but this sort of material seems to be the main topic for this forum nowadays.


----------



## Chris152 (17 May 2021)

AlanY said:


> hahaha. That is the funniest thing I have read today. Well done, Daniel2.


This is the kind of post that seriously damages the UKW community. Daniel posted what looks like a perfectly reasonable understanding (whether you agree with it or not - I happen to think it has merit); Alan posts to laugh and mock that understanding, no further contribution. 
The less we see of this behaviour, the better.


----------



## Matress (17 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> You mean, like we were better off after the Romans had visited us ?


What did the Romans ever do for us?


----------



## Spectric (17 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> It wasn't a minority of the population. Just a.minority of voters. Not the same thing.


That is why politics fails, the outcome of elections is not a real majority of the population, voting should be made compulsory even if you spoil the papers in protest.


----------



## Jameshow (17 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Try and side step it, that's my policy.
> 
> It's incredibly damaging to my current and future plans. I'm gradually finding a way around the huge issues it's causing, but it's proving to be very expensive.
> 
> But there you go, that's how it is and never mind. I just hope it's going to be the rip roaring success that some people imagine and Britain is going to be just like Switzerland, we'll all be called Heidi and poo triangular turds.


Hey don't bring toblerone into the fight cause that's all I get for Father's Day!

Cheers James


----------



## Spectric (17 May 2021)

Posible solution is that if in a given area less than 75% turn out to vote then that area has no single MP but a collective representation, so if thats not what you want then vote. The issue is that many people don't vote because they never see any difference, the words do not become actions.


----------



## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

Interesting thing on R4 yesterday, suggesting 650 random people would be more effective than 650 elected MP's, I agreed with them after arguements were put forward.


----------



## AlanY (17 May 2021)

Chris152 said:


> This is the kind of post that seriously damages the UKW community. Daniel posted what looks like a perfectly reasonable understanding (whether you agree with it or not - I happen to think it has merit); Alan posts to laugh and mock that understanding, no further contribution.
> The less we see of this behaviour, the better.


I merely congratulated Daniel2 on what I consider to be pure comedy gold. But thank you for your lecture. It is much appreciated.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 May 2021)

At least hardly any of them would have PPE degrees.


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## danst96 (17 May 2021)

Garno said:


> You seem to doubt this is happening in today's society.
> 
> I can't say I blame you for that really as it does sound incredulous.
> 
> ...


this is the most ridiculous thing i have ever seen in my short life. 

Its the way the US will be run for the next 4 years. The worst leadship in decades. Trump was a plonker and not a nice person but he got ship done. This current leadership is pathetic


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## Blackswanwood (17 May 2021)

I think all key decisions impacting the UK should be sorted via a game of Rock Paper Scissors. No room for ambiguity and to soften the blow on the losing side the winners should have to buy them a beer.


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## Daniel2 (17 May 2021)

AlanY said:


> I merely congratulated Daniel2 on what I consider to be pure comedy gold. But thank you for your lecture. It is much appreciated.



I'm sorry, but I don't really understand. Could you please explain what was so funny about my post,
because it wasn't intended to be. Perhaps there's a joke in there that I missed ?


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## John Brown (17 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Interesting thing on R4 yesterday, suggesting 650 random people would be more effective than 650 elected MP's, I agreed with them after arguements were put forward.


I heard that too. It seemed to make sense in a lot of ways. My fear would be that some people would find a way to wriggle out. Bit like jury service.


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## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> I heard that too. It seemed to make sense in a lot of ways. My fear would be that some people would find a way to wriggle out. Bit like jury service.



I think most people would do it if it was paid well. Be very interesting. 1 year max service.


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## AlanY (17 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't really understand. Could you please explain what was so funny about my post,
> because it wasn't intended to be. Perhaps there's a joke in there that I missed ?


 Please, no more! It hurts when I laugh!


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## Daniel2 (17 May 2021)

AlanY said:


> Please, no more! It hurts when I laugh!



I take it you must be very accustomed to not being taken very seriously.
At least I have the courage to offer an opinion.
Is it, perhaps, the thought of other people's misery that gives you such pleasure ?
Mocking other people's opinions is the epitomy of immaturity.


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## Droogs (17 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Try and side step it, that's my policy.
> 
> It's incredibly damaging to my current and future plans. I'm gradually finding a way around the huge issues it's causing, but it's proving to be very expensive.



Try dating a girl from Herning/Viborg/Silkeberg triangle rather than Esbjerg/Tonder/Kolding one, they are much more provincial and have much cheaper tastes.


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## Wildman (17 May 2021)

This PC world we live in today makes it difficult to talk a lot of the time, whilst some words could be racial slurs they are not meant as such when used by the majority of people, it is only common usage, I am sure when people of colour call each other N****s they are not intending offence so why should it be so when a person of a different race uses the same word. Is it a slur to call someone Taffy, Paddy, Jock, chalky, Dusty etc I have known an aweful lot of people who would be offended if you stopped calling them that. Percieved non political correctness makes a mockery of the way we speak. A sort of reverse racism sneaks in. No wonder I am a recluse.


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## D_W (17 May 2021)

gregmcateer said:


> Hmmm .
> I may be misremembering, but DW, I think you were pretty vocal about what we called the storming of Capitol Hill, and you were explaining they weren't REALLY troublemakers, just an ickle bit sad that their champ turned out not to be a champ



That's exactly what I said. That they'll be prosecuted and it'll be over and Trump won't have much away once he's out of office. I saw a first hand account the morning after the riot and it turned out to be correct. We now also have zero establishment deaths because the officer who died was ruled to have died of causes unrelated to the riot, but as the first hand account said to me, the lady who was shot was unarmed and not posing any immediate threat.

He also said they went in and told the officers at the door, "we're unarmed and were coming in and nobody will stop us", and that they had no plans other than protest.

All of that turned out to be correct. The problem with that group is they were dopey enough to believe the election had been rigged. I saw a group on the farm forum that I sometimes visit going on at length about it, which is where the actual person I mentioned came from. They thought they were defending the legitimacy of elections, and aren't the type who would run around deconstructing the country when they find out they don't have a case. I told them their election interpretation was wrong and the odds that a whole bunch happened but nothing was provable wasn't that great. I wasn't able to make a dent (they refer to me as a liberal over there...whatever. If you're independent, nobody will ever be happy with your views).

The very interesting thing there wasn't how I turned out to be right. That was predictable, but how careless the media was was shocking. Every single thing this protestor said turned out to be right except the trouble on the other side of the capitol doesn't look to have involved plants from other groups. He told us the police let them in, that the lady shot was unarmed and that she was just climbing through a window, etc. All of that was initially reported incorrectly in a fan the flames way.

The fantasy scenarios here were really dumb, but you can only find out what the news tells you. Now, I've got a brother in law who believes that the Trump effort is going to rise up in the next generation and overthrow the government. But he's very worried about it right now. It's bizarre. Life is pretty good here but everyone wants to convince themselves that it's not.


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## Noel (17 May 2021)

Bob Chapman said:


> What is the point of this unpleasant drivel? I’m no defender of Jacob or anyone else here, you can all defend yourselves, but this seems pure spite. Why? If you can’t attack the argument, attack the man?



And with that sentiment, which I think most would agree with, it's closing time.
If some want to continue please access the OT #2 board. The rules concerning personal behaviour toward others will still apply.


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