# Beware the cheats!



## Kentbeaver69 (4 Jan 2017)

I got to the workshop this morning to be confronted by a disgruntled colleague.

He was all like - "what's the point in us breaking our backs to make good stuff when there's people importing furniture from Indonesia and making out its made in this country".

So of course I asked him what he was on about and he said he'd seen an advert on facebook for "uniquesolidwoodfurniturebystan" 

He wanted a new bed from a UK company and couldn't believe how cheap they were so checked them out and while he was looking, happened to notice that the website address was linked to Indonesia. So being a straightforward fellow, he asked the guy running the blog whether the furniture was made in Indonesia (there was no mention of this and the website made out that the company designed and handmade all of their own furniture and was presented as a bespoke service). He didn't mind if they were initially but got a bit angry with the reply which was that the "website is linked to Indonesia because it is" He then asked -"So it's all made in Indonesia then?" No reply and his post was then promptly deleted which made him even more disgruntled.

So this morning he showed me the site and having a background in furniture design, I couldn't help but notice the clear resemblance between one of the nesting chair / sofas and David Savages work. There was also pieces on there which were clearly very close to those by other famous makers.

As a UK woodworker, I couldn't help but feel that people were being deliberately misled and thought I should flag it up here to see what other people think about it. It makes our lives harder because it alters public opinion against UK makers if they draw a direct comparison between this sort of company and one manufacturing in the UK!


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## NazNomad (4 Jan 2017)

Damn those Indonesians with all that exotic wood growing on their doorstep. :-D


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## Kentbeaver69 (4 Jan 2017)

Actually, I didn't even start to look into whether it was sustainable timber..
Noticed something else - there are no mediocre reviews - at all - or criticisms on Facebook and all the contributors seem to be friends of the site! The plot thickens...


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

Hello,

There are lots of other makers furniture on those pages and there seems to be endless numbers of pages! I wonder if the images are just speculative, copied and pasted from lots of other websites, in the attempt to make his website look impresive. But also as speculative images, that can be made (sort of) when a customer takes a fancy to one. There are no prices on these, just reference codes.

TBH the stuff with prices looks foreign and is also flippin' horrible. I don't think we have much to worry about, the customers of that website will not have the budget to buy British made craftsmanship, nor the taste and discernment to know the difference.

Mike.


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## MattRoberts (4 Jan 2017)

HFF. Com did a video on some modifications to some imported furniture a client had purchased from Thailand I believe. Upon investigation, and under the layers of paint that covered the whole piece, he discovered it was solid teak. And I mean everything - even the 45 degree braces, panels, the lot. And it had been painted. 

Weighed a ton mind.


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## Alexfn (4 Jan 2017)

This furniture by Stan page started coming up on my Facebook feed a while back. I instantly smelled a rat. Over a few short months it's built a massive following with lots of compliments about the guy being an artist.

If he is importing it then he's comitting fraud by misrepresentation because hes made several comments on his Facebook page in reply to others about how long it takes him to make these peices.. that's one of the things that doesn't add up. How long he claims it takes him to make it and the price he's selling it at.. you would not be making a living.

I actually wondered if it was an out and out scam and after placing and order it would never show up.. feel a bit daft for not guessing it was imported. Looking at the timber now it's obvious...


Just like anti dumping tax needs to be applied to some good from China something needs to be done here. It snuffs out local talent because it's impossible to complete with those prices


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## tomatwark (4 Jan 2017)

Try googling the phone number and you will find that this guy is buying up domain names creating a simple web page with a different company name.


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## Nelsun (4 Jan 2017)

^I'm confused. I just googled the phone number and clicked through to http://oakfurnitureshops.co.uk/ and I'll be badgered if I can see anything made from oak. About the only thing I could find that mentioned species was a solid mahogany and zebrano bed starting at £345. What a talented guy that Stan is, making all that (hammer) (hammer) (hammer) (homer) 

I have to confess to looking through the facebook photos last night when they appeared as if by magic. Besides the low prices I was curious about him having 500 items to get rid of to make room for more of his creations and was trying to flog them off... cheap! He must be very busy and have a shedload of cash to tie up that amount of wood in unsold furniture. Or lying through his back teeth. Even better, the business operates out of "Long Shot Lane" =D>

My sarcasm metre is redlining!


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Jan 2017)

He's got a mate doing something very similar, and working from the same address - http://www.solidwoodfurnitureuk.co.uk/

To be fair, they're not the only company offering 'bespoke' furniture that turns out to be made overseas; Brights of Nettlebed do something similar, though they aim at a slightly higher price market and their marketing is a bit more subtle - http://www.brightsofnettlebed.co.uk/

On the other hand, Arthur Brett still make furniture to established and modern designs in Norwich - http://www.arthurbrett.com/ - and Ercol are still going in the Chilterns - http://www.ercol.com/about/factory-tour/


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Was just reading this tread and an Oak Flipping Furniture Land banner appeared along the bottom.

It is all the same, imported garbage made be the poor. It makes me sick. However, I don't believe it is cheap copies that make it difficult for British makers to earn a living,it is just cheap imports in general. No one who wants a David Savage chair and has the mean to do so, will buy one of these; there is simply no conflict there. Not that I agree with the theft of intellectual property at all. But it is more the general populous, who's only datum for prices are the likes of OFL so think a British maker is robbing them when they quote for a good job. I have had prospective clients, incandescent with rage, when quoted for a job, because the prices in their heads were so vastly different, based on what they had sent in the shops. They obviously thought I was taking them for some sort of fool. But they never rationalise the cost of the item with the time and materials it goes to make a thing. I have often had people commenting that a piece they have seen ' must have taken weeks to make' but somehow is only going to cost them 300 pounds because their datum tells them that a six drawer chest is that much!


It is depressing.

Mike.


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Jan 2017)

Mike - that's true, of course, but has it ever been any different? There's always been a range of furniture from basic to fine. Indeed, in many respects, the gap has closed somewhat over a couple of centuries (except the quality and durability of 'basic' furniture has diminished somewhat). There's also always been somebody with a flexible conscience and an eye for a quick buck.

The world changes, new commercial challenges arise. We just have to adapt, somehow. The good news is that there's still room for quality makers such as those I quoted above, and a few really good high-end designer-makers.


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## lurker (4 Jan 2017)

Its rife through out manufactured goods

All of these "lies" are a fraud but where do you go for a remedy?
The party of free enterprise (tories) have essentially removed trading standards and folks monitoring imports so no manufacturer in the UK is competing on a level playing field.

AND we the public have no one protecting us from dangerous goods any more.

Here is just one weeks dangerous rubbish that has been spotted by the authorities (tip of an iceberg)
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers ... &Year=2016


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

Cheshirechappie":3ga7waln said:


> Mike - that's true, of course, but has it ever been any different? There's always been a range of furniture from basic to fine. Indeed, in many respects, the gap has closed somewhat over a couple of centuries (except the quality and durability of 'basic' furniture has diminished somewhat). There's also always been somebody with a flexible conscience and an eye for a quick buck.
> 
> The world changes, new commercial challenges arise. We just have to adapt, somehow. The good news is that there's still room for quality makers such as those I quoted above, and a few really good high-end designer-makers.



Hello,

I agree, it has always been so. Wasn't it Liberty of London who started by copying Arts and Crafts furniture in factory piece work workshops, when the whole point of Arts and Crafts was to eschew the oppression of factory workers? A great irony but people got wealthy.

It is the ignorance of the buying public that gets my goat. The difference nowadays is there are many more affluent buyers than there have ever been, but not the desire to spend it on what they want. The propensity for people to dupe themselves into thinking these impoted things are any good and in any way compare with nicely made stuff is remarkable. But keeping their money in the bank acts as some sort of filter. 

Besides, it is not a excuse to say it always happened, to justify it being continued. When you have tried to make a living at making things, worked very hard and still only manage to earn subsistence wages, then those with 'flexible consciouses' as you put it, get right up your hooter. 

Mike.


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Jan 2017)

That's also true.

I don't think it's all bad news, though. Reputations do still count, so 'quality' manufacturers can still make a go of it.

The British foundry industry shrank dramatically a couple of decades ago, with a lot of work going to the far east. However, about five or so years ago, the sector in the UK noticed an upsurge, which had several factors. Quality was one - if you get a container full of sub-standard castings for your far-east supplier, what do you do about it? If you have a problem with the foundry 30 miles away, you can go and talk to them. Secondly, transport costs (not quite such a factor with furniture, since it's not as heavy). Thirdly, falsified quality documentation. Fourthly, UK foundries had learned how to maintain output with significantly lower costs.

Not necessarily directly transferrable to the furniture market, but perhaps indicative of what may happen as labour costs increase in the east. It's also the case that built-in furniture can't be fitted from the far east, which is why that market remains. So it's not all permanent doom and gloom.

Thirty years ago, I was reading that the future of the bespoke furniture market was secure provided clients were educated to understand what they were buying. I don't think we've managed it, and most people are not in general significantly richer than they were then either. Consequently, it's not altogether surprising that they buy what they can afford, even if they do understand 'quality', and it's also not surprising that they equate what they see in the shops as 'normal' prices.


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## woodbrains (4 Jan 2017)

Hello,

It is a perennial problem, how to educate the buying public what quality is compared to the rubbish offerings in shops. But most makers are small outfits with no medium to educate through, they simply do not have the means for widespread education and advertisements. So the problem persists. If anyone can solve the problem, then please let us know how it is done! 

Reputations are everything, but it is quite possible to never get one, even if rightly deserved. I can make the stuff for sure, but I haven't made enough of it to get the reputation, because I can't get the buying public to purchase it in the first place. It is a vicious cycle. Now I haven't the years left to get a reputation.

I don't blame (much) those of little means from buying British made things, though I do think they should buy better quality used furniture, as less well off people did, but seem not to do so much now. But the other great sin of the 21st century means that people have to have new, fashionable stuff and change it regularly. Used stuff is only fit for the dump, the quality is so poor. 

The only solution I can see is for government legislation preventing the cutting of British manufacturing business' throats, by cheap imports. It is all well and good, legislating for safer working environments, fair wages, less polluting energy production and manufacturing processes, limiting working hours and having statutory holidays, child care, etc. etc. for workers in Europe, when goods can be imported from countries who do not have any of these human rights. Our manufacturing gets priced out of the Stratosphere before it can even think of profit and sustainability, and the foreign manufacturers, who do not worry about any of this, are unsurprisingly cheap. We should not allow imports from any manufacturer who does not comply with the same basic standards as we do in the West. When all is equal, then global human rights will be better, the global environment will be better and we would all have jobs. Except perhaps for those talentless morons who seem to think they can become wealthy by simply owning a flexible conscience.

Mike.


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## Woodmonkey (4 Jan 2017)

Yep, the stuff on that chaps website looks suspiciously similar (read "identical") to the stuff I see every time the misses drags me round Homesense. It looks ok from a distance but on closer inspection it's absolutely appalling quality, anyone who genuinely calls themselves a furniture maker would be embarrassed to sell that kind of tat.
Unfortunately Mike is correct, the majority of folk are ignorant to what is quality and what isn't.


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## beech1948 (4 Jan 2017)

On a different note the oakfurnitureland or whatever site in Long Shot Lane is only about 6 miles from me. Interestingly it is in an industrial estate of small businesses and close to the Bracknell tip. In fact that was how I recognised it.

Will report back as I have a few friends who run their businesses from Long Shot Lane to see what they know. 

I'll pop along and take a few pictures.


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## RobinBHM (4 Jan 2017)

beech1948":1t0tyttu said:


> On a different note the oakfurnitureland or whatever site in Long Shot Lane is only about 6 miles from me. Interestingly it is in an industrial estate of small businesses and close to the Bracknell tip. In fact that was how I recognised it.
> 
> Will report back as I have a few friends who run their businesses from Long Shot Lane to see what they know.
> 
> I'll pop along and take a few pictures.



Unit 48 is occupied by eyecare services group limited, Ruby Hashim director. Not much Stan or furniture


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## Mr T (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":xk55npvb said:


> Hello,
> 
> It is a perennial problem, how to educate the buying public what quality is compared to the rubbish offerings in shops. But most makers are small outfits with no medium to educate through, they simply do not have the means for widespread education and advertisements. So the problem persists. If anyone can solve the problem, then please let us know how it is done!
> 
> ...



I think the solution is also in your hands Mike (on a micro level).One of the reasons the public cannot spot quality in a product is that as a child they are no longer taught how things are made. Craft education nowadays is about design not making so the concept of quality is not an input. It also mens they have no idea how long it takes to make something properly. 

Working in a school as you do Mike I'm sure your students will come out with a sound concept of quality. More power to your elbow!

Chris


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## craigs (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":8u81esav said:


> Hello,
> 
> It is a perennial problem, how to educate the buying public what quality is compared to the rubbish offerings in shops. But most makers are small outfits with no medium to educate through, they simply do not have the means for widespread education and advertisements. So the problem persists. If anyone can solve the problem, then please let us know how it is done!
> 
> ...




^^^ what he said.

We live in a disposable society, fashions change, tastes change and people want their houses to be with current trends which has seen IKEA's huge boom. Im not sure the average person cares about quality, because quality is far more expensive than cheap rubbish that looks good and can be replaced easily. The UK is essentially screwed, we are screwed by the government now with taxes and cost of living, and unfortunately for UK manufacturers thats going to get worse with the shiny new trade agreements they plan to implement meaning foreign goods will be cheaper.

is there a fix? i dont think so. buying british just isn't an option for a lot of people unless the prices come down, which has other effects, you either screw the makers or you screw the consumers. Or you slap on tarrifs to imports and screw your economy AND your consumers. Also I dont see how a british person turns a screwdriver any different to a person in China or anywhere else for that matter. buying from a country is no guarantee of better quality, all of cr-apples devices are made in the peoples republic and there's nothing wrong with those. As a consumer who pays half his salary to water the queens gardens, I'll buy british when its competitive.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2017)

There are undoubtedly "cabinet makers" like Lord Linley whose name has a certain cachet, but I wonder if much of the problem is brand snobbery where bimbo with more money than sense would rather say to her friends "this came from XYZ on Oxford Street" than "I had this purpose made by a brilliant cabinet maker in a little unit down on the industrial estate"? It isn't the item concerned that's being bought, it's the snobbery, the provenance. All the people she's showing off to will know the one but not the other. I suspect thinking this extends quite a way down the ladder. I apologise to lady readers if I appear condescending, but I suspect most furniture purchases are instigated by women.

P.s. When I win the lottery, I'm going to book Custard for the year.  Fortunately, swmbo would agree 100%.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Mr T":k7srw5l8 said:


> woodbrains":k7srw5l8 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Hello,

I thought exactly the same. I recently moved schools from an all girls school to a mixed, in the hope that I could inspire some of the lads too. I think I made a big mistake! I cannot believe how many 16 year old lads cannot even use a cordless drill. Many have never used a saw! It is clear the level of crafts teaching at that school has been poor to date, but never the less, some awareness of basic under the sink tools should be there, surely. 

Next year the GCSE exam is changing. There is just one exam for all craft subjects, i.e. people doing fashion and textiles will do the same exam as Resistant Materials, Product design, Graphics, etc. This does two things: it precludes students doing more than one craft subject and it makes the exam a nonsense. Questions cannot be asked specific to any topic anymore, because students who do one subject cannot be expected to know about the other, so questions are going to be so none specific that knowledge of anything is going to be limited. At the same time, the practical element of the subjects have been reduced, so the exam gains the student more mark towards the GCSE grade. I work with a teacher who is setting next year's exam questions and she tells me that the exam will be mostly about paper and card, the only commonality between all the subjects and really generic questions about 
Industrial production and environmental issues. We are doomed..


Mike.


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## craigs (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":kc65i0qx said:


> Mr T":kc65i0qx said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":kc65i0qx said:
> ...




hahaha you would be surprised at how many up-to-40 year olds I know that don't even own basic tools or have any idea how to repair anything. It's kind of scary.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2017)

I remember reading a letter in The Times from a guy saying he ran a light engineering firm and that he much preferred to train people as he had been trained - an apprenticeship. His problem was that he taking on sixteen year olds who had never held a hammer and who didn't know what a file was - and expecting them to be engineers in three or four years. It couldn't be done properly, if at all.


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## SteveF (5 Jan 2017)

> hahaha you would be surprised at how many up-to-40 year olds I know that don't even own basic tools or have any idea how to repair anything. It's kind of scary




I had to go to a neighbours house over the break to fit a tv bracket
lightweight bracket \ tv 4 wall screws so nothing special
tried to explain to measure down from tv top to top of bracket so could get ideal height

gave up explaining, had bacon sarnie & cup of tea, 20 minutes to get tools out drill wall pack tools 

I do wonder how some people survive

Steve


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## lurker (5 Jan 2017)

Dont understand why we are "blaming" the Schools, I can't remember doing a great deal there 45 and more years ago.
I learnt mine at home from my Dad.
As did my own sons.

Teachers are not substitute parents but suppliments.


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## Racers (5 Jan 2017)

I didn't do well in woodwork or metalwork at school and didn't have a Dad to learn from.

Pete


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## Hot stuff (5 Jan 2017)

A lot of ability is either inherent or innate and personal circumstances can determine whether or not it is ever recognised or used to its full potential. You can have a good teacher or a bad one, you can have an encouraging domestic situation or not. A lot of it is surely luck?


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Hello,

We are not blaming schools, just stating what the situation is. It is government policy that dictates what is taught at schools and it is clear that government policy is not to promote craft subjects. It seems to think that someone with an innate ability to be good at making things will abandon the notion and become a coder instead, as if the populous is just some sort of lump of clay to be moulded any way the government wants.

And is it any wonder that no parents instill the ability to make things when for the last couple of generations, schools have not taught the subject with any rigour or even direction. The attitude by most schools is that craft is some sort of distraction from the real work, or a subject taken by the underachieving wastrels. My last school recruited a new teacher who had a designer maker degree. She was absolutely blooming clueless.

Mike.


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

Kentbeaver69":17gpzpea said:


> ......
> 
> As a UK woodworker, I couldn't help but feel that people were being deliberately misled and thought I should flag it up here to see what other people think about it. It makes our lives harder because it alters public opinion against UK makers if they draw a direct comparison between this sort of company and one manufacturing in the UK!


Plenty of tat being made in the UK too - it's not all imported!
But I don't think it's an issue; with experience a lot of sensible people learn to spot the difference, sometimes the hard way, especially when things fall apart!
Tat has always been with us and I wouldn't be surprised if even great entrepreneurs like Chippendale also made tatty stuff for the low end of the market, and everything in between
The mistake some UK woodworkers seem to make is to imagine that the only alternative is "fine furniture" (with fussy overworked dovetails, or "in the style of Krenov" :lol: ), but in fact there's a whole range of possibilities for making good quality stuff, even for small or one-man operations.
Don't blame the punters or the importers of tat; blame yourself for not rising to the challenge - and maybe do a design course?

PS and keep your eyes open e.g. Brian's FB page is good on ideas - scroll down and you will see a wide range of stuff from very dubious to very good design and craft, a lot of it small business produced.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WoodworkProjects/

PPS and also blame the government for business rates, high rents, high housing costs, benefits trap, etc etc all of which make self employment difficult and uncompetitive. And blame govt for lack of investment in design/craft training and education at all levels.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Jacob, clearly in some sort of parallel universe to the rest of us.

I simply cannot make a side board, employing the most deplorably poor methods of expediency and shonkyness to sell for 250 pounds like oak furniture land can. I cannot do it for twice the cost. 3 times the cost and I might just pay workshop overheads, materials, electricity, running costs of the workshop, but little else. What sort of miracle will attending a design course provide? And why would I want to make shonky sideboards when I can make nice ones. Am I to remain poor and unhappy in my work? But the public perception will be that it is too expensive because they see 250 pound sideboards every day.

Someone explain why almost every maker I can think of has to teach to make ends meet. Thought of doing the same, but who in their right mind would pay for instruction from a concrete industrial unit in Birkenhead? Please, if you have nothing constructive to say, then keep the platitudes to yourself. It is not as if anything you say hasn't been thought of before, contemplated, mulled over, stretched, considered backwards and contrarywise by every maker in the country.

Before I quit my workshop I was asked for some quotes for work that really illustrates the situation. I had done some built in, pained furniture for a particular couple who lived in a fabulous Georgian property with bedrooms as big as my house's entire floorplan. She asked would I meet her to discuss some bedroom furniture and I arrived, not too hopeful to be honest, but enthusiastic all the same. She wanted a 10 drawer ( 5 by 5 double ) chest of drawers, a double wardrobe, 2 bedside cabinets- drawers over cupboard, a kneehole dressing table - 2 banks of drawers with mirror and stool and a blanket chest. Her budget was £5000 and she wanted it American Black Walnut. WTF.

Another was from a couple who lived in just about the most affluent part of the Wirral you could want. In their driveway was an Aston Martin DB7, a Porsche Carrera, a Range Rover and a late model Toyota something for a run about. A similar sort of cabinet job and I was referred to them from their interior designer, who I had a good relationship with. Baulked at my (already subsistence low) quote.

I dunno what the solution is

Mike.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Jacob, clearly in some sort of parallel universe to the rest of us.

I simply cannot make a side board, employing the most deplorably poor methods of expediency and shonkyness to sell for 250 pounds like oak furniture land can. I cannot do it for twice the cost. 3 times the cost and I might just pay workshop overheads, materials, electricity, running costs of the workshop, but little else. What sort of miracle will attending a design course provide? And why would I want to make shonky sideboards when I can make nice ones. Am I to remain poor and unhappy in my work? But the public perception will be that it is too expensive because they see 250 pound sideboards every day.

Someone explain why almost every maker I can think of has to teach to make ends meet. Thought of doing the same, but who in their right mind would pay for instruction from a concrete industrial unit in Birkenhead? Please, if you have nothing constructive to say, then keep the platitudes to yourself. It is not as if anything you say hasn't been thought of before, contemplated, mulled over, stretched, considered backwards and contrarywise by every maker in the country.

Before I quit my workshop I was asked for some quotes for work that really illustrates the situation. I had done some built in, pained furniture for a particular couple who lived in a fabulous Georgian property with bedrooms as big as my house's entire floorplan. She asked would I meet her to discuss some bedroom furniture and I arrived, not too hopeful to be honest, but enthusiastic all the same. She wanted a 10 drawer ( 5 by 5 double ) chest of drawers, a double wardrobe, 2 bedside cabinets- drawers over cupboard, a kneehole dressing table - 2 banks of drawers with mirror and stool and a blanket chest. Her budget was £5000 and she wanted it American Black Walnut. WTF.

Another was from a couple who lived in just about the most affluent part of the Wirral you could want. In their driveway was an Aston Martin DB7, a Porsche Carrera, a Range Rover and a late model Toyota something for a run about. A similar sort of cabinet job and I was referred to them from their interior designer, who I had a good relationship with. Baulked at my (already subsistence low) quote.

I dunno what the solution is

Mike.


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## Mr T (5 Jan 2017)

Jacob":3g50zf1d said:


> PPS and also blame the government for business rates, high rents, high housing costs, benefits trap, etc etc all of which make self employment difficult and uncompetitive. And blame govt for lack of investment in design/craft training and education at all levels.



While we're in the blame game. I blame Margaret Thatcher, who better! I believe it was she that ushered in the dismemberment of the apprentice system. The apprentice ethos not only taught people how to do the job, it also instilled a discipline, an understanding of quality and the idea that quality was degraded if you cut corners. My first evening class teaching was at Stocksbridge, a steel town near Sheffield, most of the students were retired workers from the steel works who had done apprenticeships years ago. The aprenticeships may have been in engineering but the approach and attitude towards the wo were completely transferable. They were ar joy to teach. In fact I felt a little inadequate as I never did an apprenticeship.



lurker":3g50zf1d said:


> Dont understand why we are "blaming" the Schools, I can't remember doing a great deal there 45 and more years ago.
> I learnt mine at home from my Dad.
> As did my own sons.
> 
> Teachers are not substitute parents but suppliments.



What sort of school did you attend Lurker? I am still using some of the skills and concepts I learnt at Swanmor Secondary Modern school back in 1964. Measuring and marking, datum surfaces, sawing and planing square. I wonder if the grammar school lads had the same input. Of course the girls did needlework!

Chris


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## Mr T (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":ubmkz21m said:


> shonkyness .


!!!!

What exactly is shonkyness Mike . Scouser slang?

Chris


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## Steve Maskery (5 Jan 2017)

We didn't do woodwork at (Cheadle Grammar) school, either, although there was a woodwork shop. I did do two years of metalwork, the most of which I remember being tore off a strip by Mr Aspey for cutting three pieces of 30mm diameter steel at 30mm long instead of 15mm long. He made me cut them again by hand with a blunt hacksaw. It took me three weeks and taught me nothing about metalwork (although, I suppose, a little about diligence).

We did do Technical Drawing to 'O' level though.

I'm mainly self-taught. My dad was a cabinet-maker and my granddad a pattern-maker, so I was rather born with a wooden mallet in my mouth. But Dad always said he would cut off our hands if we became woodies, so apart from whatever osmosis took place as a child, all my learning has been done as an adult.

Dad died 20 years ago, and I remember taking one of my new dining chairs into the hospital to show him. He expressed approval, so I don't think I disappointed him too much. Well, not in that way, anyway!


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":1d1frjqy said:


> ...
> I simply cannot make a side board, employing the most deplorably poor methods of expediency and shonkyness to sell for 250 pounds like oak furniture land can. I cannot do it for twice the cost. 3 times the cost and I might just pay workshop overheads, materials, electricity, running costs of the workshop, but little else. What sort of miracle will attending a design course provide? And why would I want to make shonky sideboards when I can make nice ones. Am I to remain poor and unhappy in my work? But the public perception will be that it is too expensive because they see 250 pound sideboards every day.


If it's any good somebody will buy it even for £1000. 
You aren't competing with importers of cheap stuff it's a different market. You wouldn't set up a restaurant to compete with McDonalds - you'd do what 1000s of successful little restaurants do - offer something very different, much better but more expensive. 
Personally I do think "bespoke" etc is a boggler. It means clients with "ideas" :roll: . Much better to simply make and sell, ideally in runs, for economy of scale (i.e. MORE PROFIT!!). 
Or in my case to offer just one standard of service which was either to repair, or do only perfect replicas, of period joinery. No double glazing, nor brown windows, no compromise, etc etc. Not that I got rich but I could have if I'd worked it out a bit sooner! I'm now retired more or less but selling the occasional item at quite good prices.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2017)

An acquaintance was asked to price an outdoor job for someone, and spoke to her daughter. The girl asked how much he was thinking to charge, and he said off the top of his head and allowing for a bit of creep £2500. Oh, said the girl, you won't get the job then. You need to charge at least £8000 because her neighbour paid £7500 for hers. He couldn't bring himself to do it.


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## tomatwark (5 Jan 2017)

We make very little freestanding furniture now as the likes of OFL have killed the market.

When we are asked to do it I will always give a ball park price off the top of my head when customers come in and that tends to get rid of the £250 pound sideboard time wasters, and then I know that once I have priced and drawn the job up fully I stand a reasonable chance of getting it and making money.

Most of our work is fitted at the moment either by my fitter or sold onto joiners who no longer have the workshops to make bits themselves.

If some one wants a solid Oak table and chairs and are willing to pay for it we will make it, or if someone wants a set of MDF bookcases for their joiner to fit and then for them to paint themselves we will make that as well.

The machinery will do both so why not do both.

Most of my apprenticeship was spent making one off reproduction Mahogany furniture, but there is no or little market for it now, so I moved on to other things and now employ 7 people.

A lot of the designer makers you see around either have managed to get a reputation through a lot of hard work and to some extend luck ( I mean being in the right place at the right time and not as an insult), or have come into this later in life having had another career such as the police or military and have a pension to help them out.

If you look at history there have only been a small amount of high end makers at any one time and the rest have been doing every day stuff, the local joiner would have made a lot of your furniture at one time.


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## andersonec (5 Jan 2017)

lurker":w2140phe said:


> Its rife through out manufactured goods
> 
> All of these "lies" are a fraud but where do you go for a remedy?
> The party of free enterprise (tories) have essentially removed trading standards and folks monitoring imports so no manufacturer in the UK is competing on a level playing field.
> ...



Manufacturing in this country died because it was cheaper to do it elsewhere and this happens whoever is in government and HSE was being introduced into this country before the EU got started, who do you blame for accidents like this one in the US?

http://news.sky.com/story/toddler-saves ... s-10716529


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

Mr T":q00xz1am said:


> .... I am still using some of the skills and concepts I learnt at Swanmor Secondary Modern school back in 1964. Measuring and marking, datum surfaces, sawing and planing square. I wonder if the grammar school lads had the same input. Of course the girls did needlework!
> 
> Chris


Yep we got the same at grammar school back in 1956. But the less "academic" also did metal work as well as woodwork - which just goes to show how out of touch grammar schools were, situated as we were in the industrial heartlands, with Rolls Royce (Aero) just down the road, Sheffield just up the road, etc.


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## Trevsf1 (5 Jan 2017)

Its a sad state of affairs. A company local to me used to make bespoke staircases. They were then visited by a Romanian company who now make the goods for them at 25% of their UK production costs.....

Sad thing is the majority of people now want a price point product as opposed to ethical.

A company I worked for supplied a MAJOR high street store with 'own brand' products. We sourced the product ( usually China ) and sold it through. Then China became too expensive for our buyers as they had received quotes from a competitor who manufactured in Vietnam. The company I worked for then changed manufacture to Cambodia to retain the business. To put this is perspective we bought at $0.87 per unit and sold at $ 1.90 into the UK/ The high street retailer sells at £ £ 9.50, yes £9.50


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## Mr T (5 Jan 2017)

To backtrack a little...


woodbrains":3v03afh1 said:


> Next year the GCSE exam is changing. There is just one exam for all craft subjects, i.e. people doing fashion and textiles will do the same exam as Resistant Materials, Product design, Graphics, etc. This does two things: it precludes students doing more than one craft subject and it makes the exam a nonsense. Questions cannot be asked specific to any topic anymore, because students who do one subject cannot be expected to know about the other, so questions are going to be so none specific that knowledge of anything is going to be limited. At the same time, the practical element of the subjects have been reduced, so the exam gains the student more mark towards the GCSE grade. I work with a teacher who is setting next year's exam questions and she tells me that the exam will be mostly about paper and card, the only commonality between all the subjects and really generic questions about
> Industrial production and environmental issues. We are doomed..
> 
> 
> Mike.



My initial reaction to this is disbelief, it's just irrational, how can it possibly work!!!!

Chris


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## RobinBHM (5 Jan 2017)

There is almost no furniture industry in this country now. I studied furniture production at High Wycombe learning production management.

In the 1980s High Wycombe was still a centre for the furniture industry with G-plan and Ercol almost next door to each other. Parker Knoll just up the road, Glenisters and many others in surrounding streets. Almost all of the furniture companies in the town have disappeared. At the top of the market Ercol and Parker Knoll still survive. Whilst at college I also spent a year at Ducal in Andover, pine furniture makers employing some 400 people.

Fashions have changed, pine is no more- Ducal closed down. G-plan and similar 70s styling didnt adapt to market trends. Yesterdays high street retailer Courts have been replaced by Next, oak furnitureland etc.

The demise of the furniture industry is down to a number of factors:

Market trends and the considerable change in furniture retailing

A lack of demand for high end furniture

Technology, considerable automation means the industry favours large factories

Opening up of cheap labour markets, China, India, Vietnam, Thailand etc

Ever increasing UK legislation on industry

A loss of appetite in the UK for manufacturing, we are mostly a service economy now.

It is possible to earn a good living in the furniture industry but not in bespoke craft produced free standing furniture or in small factories making batch produced furniture.

If you want to make money doing bespoke work there is a commercial market for high end furniture, for pubs, restaurants, shop fitting, offices and hotel receptions. The domestic market is very very tiny.

If you dont mind doing fitted work, there is a market for kitchens, wardrobes, home offices etc.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Mr T":i89g0tz6 said:


> woodbrains":i89g0tz6 said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly is shonkyness Mike . Scouser slang?
> ...



Hello,
Chris,
Shonky is Australian, I believe, I just adopted it as the language I should use is inappropriate in such polite company!

Jacob, 
Yes, this is the idea, we all have done batch production to expedite the making.Where do we store 10 dining tables? We've tried making lovely boxes, because a batch of those are easy to store, but there is a practical limit to what people will pay for small items so that limits how lovely you can make them and actually a very ordinary looking box exceeds most people's idea of what it should cost. How do we sell the products made speculatively? People don't come to workshops in industrial estates. Gallery's mark up doubles the price I need to take, so expensive becomes ludacrous. Trade shows are expensive and seldom get many buyers. It is a lottery and presupposes you have the money to invest (waste) on them. When you are struggling to exist at all, who does?Sometimes they generate a commission, but often just admiring glances and sharp intake of breath. People who visit those will spend on trinkets for back pocket money. Little or nothing can be made for that buyer.

Joinery is different, though there are importers of bespoke joinery nowadays. But generally if you want a new staircase you'll employ one of the joinery shops local to you. If you are competitive, you'll get some of the work that goes around. No-one has to employ local furniture makers. They might ask, but then go to John Lewis if they think they have taste and OFL if they don't care. I don't mean to go on, but unless you have tried it, you really won't understand.

And as for your 1000 pound sideboard. Make one to sell for that and see how much of a wage you can pay yourself. Could you make a 4 drawer sideboard with a cupboard either side in solid oak in a week, polished, and as you say, any good for that? You might with a 4 sider with pre-straighteners a Brookman dovetailer and wide belt sander. Don't have any of that, and a second mortgage on my house wouldn't buy them. I do things by hand tools and with simple machines. This is what I have to sell.

Mike.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Mr T":1e0z8ngf said:


> To backtrack a little...
> 
> 
> woodbrains":1e0z8ngf said:
> ...



Hello,

The cynic in me tells me it is designed to fail. I don't know what else to think other than the government wants us all to learn code.

Mike.


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## RobinBHM (5 Jan 2017)

Small batch production is a non starter in furniture.

To make a sideboard at anywhere near a realistic price needs labour time down to single figures. For example make a sideboard in 8 hours, say shop rate £40/hr =£320 selling price with overheads, materials, profit, retailer mark up, vat and the price to customer is getting on for £1500. A craftsmen using classical woodworking machinery is likely to take more like 60 hours for a sideboard with drawers etc etc.

However it possible to charge £15k or much more for a kitchen. It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture. Although the size of each cabinet may vary, the set up is the same and it is still batch production of sorts.


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

RobinBHM":1an06bfs said:


> Small batch production is a non starter in furniture.
> 
> To make a sideboard at anywhere near a realistic price needs labour time down to single figures. For example make a sideboard in 8 hours, say shop rate £40/hr =£320 selling price with overheads, materials, profit, retailer mark up, vat and the price to customer is getting on for £1500. A craftsmen using classical woodworking machinery is likely to take more like 60 hours for a sideboard with drawers etc etc.
> 
> However it possible to charge £15k or much more for a kitchen. It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture. Although the size of each cabinet may vary, the set up is the same and it is still batch production of sorts.



Hello,

Someone understands, yay! You couldn't tell Jacob, could you, I've been trying to explain for years? (hammer) 

Mike.


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## tomatwark (5 Jan 2017)

RobinBHM":20ostwpp said:


> Small batch production is a non starter in furniture.
> 
> To make a sideboard at anywhere near a realistic price needs labour time down to single figures. For example make a sideboard in 8 hours, say shop rate £40/hr =£320 selling price with overheads, materials, profit, retailer mark up, vat and the price to customer is getting on for £1500. A craftsmen using classical woodworking machinery is likely to take more like 60 hours for a sideboard with drawers etc etc.
> 
> However it possible to charge £15k or much more for a kitchen. It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture. Although the size of each cabinet may vary, the set up is the same and it is still batch production of sorts.



There is a market for small batch production but not selling on to retailers who will what at least a 40% markup and probably more on smaller value stuff.

If you can set up a good online retail site, keep it up to date and put in place a delivery service and also make sure you are not going to have problems with distance selling regs you can make money.

It is not something we do at the moment as there is more money in kitchens bedrooms and home offices as well as the other bits we do that I have already mentioned.

We have all the kit that Mike mentioned except the dovetailer and even then we would not be able to make a sideboard for a £1000 as a single piece, we would need to make at least 5 at once to make it work.

The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT and it then makes the smaller jobs you would still take on more expensive and possibly pricing you out of that market.

There is no easy solution, if there was we would all be millionaires


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## swb58 (5 Jan 2017)

I saw some of this imported stuff before Christmas. Comprising good size dining table with long bench, a desk type thing and a sideboard. All made in Thailand and freshly bought from a retail outlet for more than 2k, don't know exactly which one. All the pieces have splayed legs which looks odd to say the least without considering the strength aspect. 

Having read the instructions about not moving the furniture on carpeted surfaces the lady of the house thought it would be OK to move the sideboard slightly on her laminated flooring. The legs on one end gave way and the thing ended up on its side on the floor, luckily it was still empty. 
Why on earth do people build such utter carp, but ultimately, why on earth do people buy it!


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## Woodmonkey (5 Jan 2017)

> Why on earth do people build such utter carp, but ultimately, why on earth do people buy it



You answered your own question there I think!


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## Steve Maskery (5 Jan 2017)

swb58":ubobis3u said:


> Why on earth do people build such utter carp, but ultimately, why on earth do people buy it!



Because they like the look of it and think they are getting a bargain!


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

"It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture."

So you don't compete with Nevill Johnson. It's gotta be different -for people who don't want what Johnson does

"but not selling on to retailers who will what at least a 40% markup and probably more on smaller value stuff."

Nobody in their right minds sells to retailers! The net has made this redundant - either your own site, ebay, Etsy etc

"The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT" 
Vat limit is £83000. 4 a year and you are laughing! It should be possible for a single maker to make a good living and keep under the limit - keep turnover down but profits up with high added value of "craftsmanship". 
This is one of the biggest perks - the only perk perhaps, for the single trader, effectively giving a 20% discount.

"Small batch production is a non starter in furniture." 
Well it works for almost everything else manufactured in the universe. How many bespoke or one-off items do you buy in a year? For me it is zero. Lifetime of zero - I don't think I've ever bought anything made to measure. Have you?
And a lot of other crafts wouldn't dream of one-offs; a potter wants to fill a kiln, woodturners do long runs (minimum of 4 legs always needed, or 8 knobs, etc). Knitters and weavers do one-offs of course (but will repeat a good seller), but leather workers or dress makers don't need to - they can cut out for 1, 10 or 100 at a time.

"There is no easy solution, if there was we would all be millionaires"
Not easy, but making a living is possible even if you never get to be a millionaire.


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## bugbear (5 Jan 2017)

Jacob":1mt0aw99 said:


> "Small batch production is a non starter in furniture." Well it works for almost everything else manufactured in the universe. How many bespoke or one-off items do you buy in a year? For me it is zero.



Yes. Your argument is sound, because the only possible alternative to _small_ batch production is one-off. :roll: 

Wait.

This is going to blow your tiny mind.

There's a thing called _mass_ production.  

BugBear


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

bugbear":42l29o70 said:


> Jacob":42l29o70 said:
> 
> 
> > "Small batch production is a non starter in furniture." Well it works for almost everything else manufactured in the universe. How many bespoke or one-off items do you buy in a year? For me it is zero.
> ...


Er, what's that about? What are you trying to say BB? Some confusion here. :roll: 

Happy new year BTW!


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## RobinBHM (5 Jan 2017)

Jacob":1o49mt1x said:


> "It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture."
> 
> So you don't compete with Nevill Johnson. It's gotta be different -for people who don't want what Johnson does
> 
> ...



The key word is 'small' I doubt if you buy anything in a year that is made that way. Any Western made product is almost certainly from a highly automated factory with huge investment in CNC plant. The only affordable batch craft made items are those brought in from low wage economies.

The markup on ebay or etsi is hardly cheap. Driving traffic to a website is expensive. Packaging and delivery of furniture is expensive. It still isnt a viable business model.

not being vat registered doesnt make you 20% cheaper. It does save 20% on the added value. Keeping below the threshold is prob only possible tor a 1 man band working from a home workshop, from a businesd unit the break even point is almost certainly going to be higher than £80k


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## tomatwark (5 Jan 2017)

Jacob":1e56msaa said:


> "The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT"
> Vat limit is £83000. 4 a year and you are laughing! It should be possible for a single maker to make a good living and keep under the limit - keep turnover down but profits up with by high added value of "craftsmanship". This is one of the biggest perks - the only perk perhaps, for the single trader, giving a 20% discount.
> .



Jacob 

If you are selling a kitchen for £20,000 inc vat that is £ 16,666.67 ex vat x 5 = £ 83,333.35


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

RobinBHM":2arkka3y said:


> ....
> The key word is 'small' I doubt if you buy anything in a year that is made that way. Any Western made product is almost certainly from a highly automated factory with huge investment in CNC plant. The only affordable batch craft made items are those brought in from low wage economies.


We buy stuff all the time from small batch producers - food, booze etc from farmers markets and /or small shops (bakers etc) being the most regular, but also from craft producers - leather goods, bits of pottery, prints, gift-ware in general is a big one. There is a lot of stuff going on out there!


> The markup on ebay or etsi is hardly cheap.


Simply not true - they are exceptionally cheap compared to most of the alternatives


> Driving traffic to a website is expensive.


No it isn't. The website merely has to be interesting. No driving involved


> Packaging and delivery of furniture is expensive.


But not prohibitively. It might cost £50 to get a £1000 table to 300 miles away. There are lots of services available; "Anyvan" etc


> not being vat registered doesnt make you 20% cheaper. It does save 20% on the added value.


The lower your overheads (the higher your added value) the nearer you get to 20%


> Keeping below the threshold is prob only possible tor a 1 man band ...


2 man perhaps, or part timers.


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":sx7an3tk said:


> Jacob":sx7an3tk said:
> 
> 
> > "The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT"
> ...


Yes I worked that out too. 
If you sell 4 kitchens at £20000 vat free that makes £80,000. Why make a 5th kitchen and lose all that profit paying VAT? :lol:


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## tomatwark (5 Jan 2017)

Robin

Small batch production is still possible, if is run along side other aspects to the business, eg make the doors part for the batch of side boards along side the kitchen you are running, and keep the sections the same and so on.

But also anything you do would need to be simple to make and also you would need to keep the range small.

I agree that as a stand alone business it would be hard going if not impossible.

The main reason we have avoided doing this is the delivery issues, but it is something I discussing with a customer who runs a small national delivery firm, to see if we can make it work, they move furniture all the time.

The other thing is CNC kit is coming down in price all the time and is getting into the reach of a company like mine with 7 employees, the big problem is the space some of it takes up so it means as well as the purchase costs you need to factor in the cost of larger premises.

The website promotion does not to be on the scale of a larger multi national and against the costs of say regular newspaper advertising, is not much more expensive, and is still a lot cheaper than a retail mark up or having a high street presence.

You can also target you online marketing to be more regional, which also helps with the delivery issues as well.

From talking to people about this on a small scale it is possible, it is the scaling up that is the problem, as you expand your geographical area then the delivery costs also increase, and this is where they started to struggle.


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":384201xl said:


> .....
> From talking to people about this on a small scale it is possible, it is the scaling up that is the problem, ...


The VAT limit is the biggest hurdle - either keep below it or make a big jump to be well above it.


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## doctor Bob (5 Jan 2017)

I don't get this thread.

There is a market for all levels of furniture just as there is for cars, from Dacia duster to Rolls royce, they both do exactly the same fundermental thing, but are hugely different in quality.
More cheap cars are sold than expensive, the marketing for high end has to be very targeted, but there is definately a market.
The trick is to weed out the people who only want a dacia if you are targeting high end.


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

doctor Bob":e8pcmnt4 said:


> ....
> The trick is to weed out the people who only want a dacia if you are targeting high end.


Or any chosen point in between.


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## tomatwark (5 Jan 2017)

Jacob":3tzxu0h9 said:


> If you sell 4 kitchens at £20000 vat free that makes £80,000. Why make a 5th kitchen and lose all that profit paying VAT? :lol:



If you do that say in 8 months, what do you do you for the other 4?

You either go on holiday or turn down work and then get a reputation for always being holiday and turning down work, result your business goes bust.

Do cash work and then get chased by HMRC

As soon as you hit the limit you have register.

The VAT limit is not a hurdle, and it does not take much to get above it even on your own, I was over it before I employed anyone.


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## tomatwark (5 Jan 2017)

doctor Bob":v7mwlhqp said:


> I don't get this thread.
> 
> There is a market for all levels of furniture just as there is for cars, from Dacia duster to Rolls royce, they both do exactly the same fundermental thing, but are hugely different in quality.
> More cheap cars are sold than expensive, the marketing for high end has to be very targeted, but there is definately a market.
> The trick is to weed out the people who only want a dacia if you are targeting high end.



Which is what was said earlier.

BUT then Jacob got involved and it became a competition to see who could get the moderators to lock it :lol:

And there is nothing on telly.


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## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":35rbj4y0 said:


> Jacob":35rbj4y0 said:
> 
> 
> > If you sell 4 kitchens at £20000 vat free that makes £80,000. Why make a 5th kitchen and lose all that profit paying VAT? :lol:
> ...


What you do with the spare time (after the holiday and the other treats) is invest even more time in the 4 items you are making so that they are even better in quality.
VAT as a hurdle depends on what you are doing - theoretically you could have zero outgoings and earn the full £83000. Not sure how you'd do this - massage parlour perhaps?
A "craftsman" can earn more adding his higher craft skills to low cost materials so presumably a one man goldsmith might have a prob which a potter wouldn't. It's all a bit unfair and unbalanced. Income tax makes more sense.


----------



## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":wskt2jcr said:


> ....
> 
> BUT then Jacob got involved and it became a competition to see who could get the moderators to lock it :lol:
> 
> And there is nothing on telly.


Lot of people desperately looking for excuses (or someone to blame) for not being able to make a living!


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## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Jacob, you still haven't answered the question of why almost all designer makers teach in their workshops to make ends meet. Or have second jobs, or do site joinery. Almost all of the others employ people to maximise the workshop overhead, which has problems of its own such as extra H & S headaches, let alone the need to have the work coming in to keep everyone employed. Which just means the proprietor does not make anymore and becomes a salesman. Are all these makers idiots missing the way to actually make stuff for a living, or is the situation actually very difficult, nearly impossible to make the figures add up. 

And referring to the kitchen example above. Desigbing, making and fitting 4 kitchens a year for a one man band maker is quite a tall order. It presupposes they can get 4 kitchen jobs to run concurrently ( how are you out getting the work and doing it at the same time?) It also presupposes a one man band has the scoring panel saw for sheet goods, edgebanders, efficient ways of fitting cup hinges and drawer runners, maybe a spindle with auto feed for making cope and stick doors and a drum sander, domino..... But at the same time add craftsmanship that Neville Johnson et al, cannot. Hand work and interesting design that now will not allow all those industry standard expediences to actually work. We already know you'll not allow us fancy dovetails and other bespoke touches, as they are too fussy and unnecessary. How narrow the tightrope do you want us to walk? Incidentally if this one man outfit could make 4 kitchens a year with hand made curios that differentiated them from Neville Johnson, what salary do you think would be left for the maker? I recon 1/8 the gross.

Mike. I'm


----------



## Jacob (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":6dgxawln said:


> Hello,
> 
> Jacob, you still haven't answered the question of why almost all designer makers teach .....


Either they are not good at their trade so have to supplement their income - or, more interestingly, they are good at teaching, which is a highly respectable trade in its own right.
Or a bit of both - I have a theory that a good teacher might well be someone who has a problem learning and so has empathy with other learners and the problems thereof.
In the meantime there are millions of designers, makers, craftsmen, doing their stuff without having to scrabble about for another income, so your basic premise is wrong to start with.


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":1mbpcr4p said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> And referring to the kitchen example above. Desigbing, making and fitting 4 kitchens a year for a one man band maker is quite a tall order. It presupposes they can get 4 kitchen jobs to run concurrently ( how are you out getting the work and doing it at the same time?) It also presupposes a one man band has the scoring panel saw for sheet goods, edgebanders, efficient ways of fitting cup hinges and drawer runners, maybe a spindle with auto feed for making cope and stick doors and a drum sander, domino..... But at the same time add craftsmanship that Neville Johnson et al, cannot. Hand work and interesting design that now will not allow all those industry standard expediences to actually work. We already know you'll not allow us fancy dovetails and other bespoke touches, as they are too fussy and unnecessary. How narrow the tightrope do you want us to walk? Incidentally if this one man outfit could make 4 kitchens a year with hand made curios that differentiated them from Neville Johnson, what salary do you think would be left for the maker? I recon 1/8 the gross.
> ...



A one man band could easily do 10 decent kitchens a year (Total £100K +) if they know what they are doing, piece of p!ss, machinery is built up as you go along, know loads of people who've done it. 1/8 is incredibly low.


----------



## tomatwark (5 Jan 2017)

doctor Bob":3hppta1z said:


> machinery is built up as you go along, know loads of people who've done it.



This is how I did it.


----------



## woodbrains (5 Jan 2017)

doctor Bob":2tpucx2b said:


> woodbrains":2tpucx2b said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Hello, 

I was not talking about making to the industry standard, but adding hand made features that Jacob says we must, to differentiate us from the industry standard makers. Anyone can make MFC carcasses, buy in all the drawer/door fronts and just be an assembly guy and fitter. But we are talking about designer makers trying to make solid wood furniture. 

With respect, you employ what, 5 people and have 4 siders and Brookman machines panel saws that cost more than my entire kit, you are not playing in the same game. I'm not saying your business does not have difficulties, but none of the same ones as me, Chris Tribe above and my like. When was the last time your guys made hand cut dovetailed drawers with slips and cedar bottoms. When was the last time you went around small timber suppliers for fiddleback sycamore or curly cherry. I'll tell you, never, because it would have put you out of business. 

Rolls Royce can afford 100s of thousands in advertising in Montecarlo to target the people who don't want Dacia's.....How do I target the people who don't want MFC kitchens? 

Mike.


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## Jake (5 Jan 2017)

You can't make people want hand cut dovetailed drawers with slips and cedar bottoms and if you insist on that as a quality standard for your production you are fishing in a very small and shallow rich pool. None of those things are that meaningful in fitted furniture, where they are in reality just ways of conveying snob value. They might be relevant for something intended to last 100+ years, but no-one believes that of fitted furniture.


----------



## doctor Bob (6 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":1vzdv6v0 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was not talking about making to the industry standard, but adding hand made features that Jacob says we must, to differentiate us from the industry standard makers. Anyone can make MFC carcasses, buy in all the drawer/door fronts and just be an assembly guy and fitter. But we are talking about designer makers trying to make solid wood furniture.
> 
> ...



So you assume I buy it all in, all my kitchens are MFC industry standard, i was gifted brookmans and 4 siders from day 1 and just went out there and employed 5 people. You assume my guys are monkeys who can't cut a dovetail. When was the last time you saw an advert for say, a Pagano, koenigsegg, Noble, Ultima, Atom etc. Do you know what i think I'll drop out of this thread, as you obviously have it soooo difficult and I can't possibly understand.


----------



## tomatwark (6 Jan 2017)

Mike 

What we are trying to tell you is that there is not a living JUST doing what you want to do.

Like Bob my guys are not monkey's putting together bought in components, I have two apprentices training to be cabinetmakers at the moment one of them is currently making some Mackintosh chairs.

We make everything here, but I started out with about £2500 in machinery and took on what I needed to, so I could live.

You have to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth until you are in the position to be choosey about what you take on.

I am curious why Chris Tribe is different to us though, like Bob he makes some really great furniture, but if you look at his website he is not above using MDF and Poplar when it is the right thing to do.

I am going to drop out of this now as you don't seem to understand that we are trying to help you here.


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## Mr T (6 Jan 2017)

doctor Bob":1szsev9d said:


> Do you know what i think I'll drop out of this thread, as you obviously have it soooo difficult and I can't possibly understand.



Mr Grumpy!!  

Chris


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## tomatwark (6 Jan 2017)

Chris

Do you teach because you want too or because you have too?


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":x2nc2wn5 said:


> ......
> 
> I was not talking about making to the industry standard, but adding hand made features that Jacob says we must, to differentiate us from the industry standard makers. ....


I didn't say that at all.


tomatwark":x2nc2wn5 said:


> Mike
> 
> What we are trying to tell you is that there is not a living JUST doing what you want to do........


Yes.
And no! You do have to _like_ what you are doing, not least because if you get any pleasure out of it you will put more in to it, and it may be a little compensation for it not making you a millionaire.


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## Mr T (6 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":nfm7ogbo said:


> Chris
> 
> Do you teach because you want too or because you have too?



I bit of both. Just off out to drive down to Wiltshire. I'll explain in more detail this evening.

Chris


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## woodbrains (6 Jan 2017)

doctor Bob":2amja3w8 said:


> So you assume I buy it all in, all my kitchens are MFC industry standard, i was gifted brookmans and 4 siders from day 1 and just went out there and employed 5 people. You assume my guys are monkeys who can't cut a dovetail. When was the last time you saw an advert for say, a Pagano, koenigsegg, Noble, Ultima, Atom etc. Do you know what i think I'll drop out of this thread, as you obviously have it soooo difficult and I can't possibly understand.



Hello,

Don't put words into my mouth, Dr Bob. I'm not saying any of those things, I didn't say any of those things, you did. You have your business model and it works, you no doubt work very hard. But you do have a production set up, and it is not something I want to do. I don't want to work with mfc carcasses,I don't want to break out frame and panel doors on a spindle and make boxes on a Brookman. I don't want to spray everything in whatever pastel colour is in vogue with the WAGS at the moment. I want to work wood because I love wood. I like the challenge of the design. I didn't start off making the things I do to transmogrify into a production enterprise that has little resmblance to what I started and employ people to make ecconomies of scale. Why would I get into woodwork, I might as well be making cardboard boxes or tin cans to make money.

And in any case, where do all these 20 grand kitchen jobs come from, if you read my earlier posts I was saying how I can't get people to pay more than 5000 for a suite of walnut bedroom furniture.

I'm not asking for ways to make my business work, I know it is marginal and I stopped trying a few years ago. I was actually wondering why it should be marginal, when there are very affluent people around, but who will still only buy cheap imported rubbish.

Mike.


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## No skills (6 Jan 2017)

Still going..


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":2y21z7s8 said:


> ....employ people to make ecconomies of scale. ....


You don't have to employ people to get economies of scale. You just set about making say 10 of whatever it is, instead of one. All the cost of design development prototype etc goes into the first one, the others are really cheap to make.


> I want to work wood because I love wood.


On a seasonal note; I want to work mince pies because I love mince pies.; it takes only slightly longer to make a dozen mince pies than it does to make just one. :lol: 




> there are very affluent people around, but who will still only buy cheap imported rubbish.


There are very affluent people around, and some not so affluent, who will pay for better quality stuff.


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## doctor Bob (6 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":24ml6z5g said:


> But you do have a production set up, and it is not something I want to do. I don't want to work with mfc carcasses,I don't want to break out frame and panel doors on a spindle and make boxes on a Brookman. I don't want to spray everything in whatever pastel colour is in vogue with the WAGS at the moment. I want to work wood because I love wood. I like the challenge of the design. I didn't start off making the things I do to transmogrify into a production enterprise that has little resmblance to what I started and employ people to make ecconomies of scale. Why would I get into woodwork, I might as well be making cardboard boxes or tin cans to make money.
> 
> And in any case, where do all these 20 grand kitchen jobs come from, if you read my earlier posts I was saying how I can't get people to pay more than 5000 for a suite of walnut bedroom furniture.
> 
> ...



This is about your ego, not the customers.


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## custard (6 Jan 2017)

There's very little industry data for independent furniture makers so any observations are conjectural. Furthermore there's no such thing as a _typical_ independent furniture maker, they come in all shapes and sizes and they succeed or fail in lots of different ways. However, I believe there are some underlying themes that paint a picture of an evolving independent furniture business.

In the post war period independent furniture making was closely linked to the antiques business. In some respects that was a pretty happy combination. The nature of the antique trade was that for every high street antique shop there was much wider network of people who were largely invisible to the general public. The typical piece of antique furniture might change hands _within the trade_ five or ten times before it surfaced in a shop, moved around by a loose and informal network of dealers who weren't shop based but bought and sold purely _within_ the trade. That allowed an independent furniture maker to buy a cheap property (and if you go back to any time before about 1980 property _was_ cheap, and rural barns in particular were an absolute give away) and set up a workshop in the middle of no where. But as long as they were plugged in to the antique network they could still just about survive on restoration business. They could buy from auction on their own account, restore pieces, and wait for the knock on the door from a dealer. Or they could work as a trade restorer. And the production, equipment, and layout requirements for a restoration workshop were pretty similar to an independent furniture maker's requirements, so the two activities co-existed pretty well. Particularly so as many independent cabinet makers in that era were more focused on making antique reproductions rather than contemporary designs. No one was making a fortune, but there was a business model that allowed the independent maker to survive.

Some makers tried to break away from repro and restoration, and if they managed to rise above the herd and establish a reputation for original design (like say Alan Peters, John Makepeace, or the Barnsley workshop) they found there were occasional commercial commissions that further enhanced their reputation and provided a profitable nugget of business. Those commissions could be a board room table for ICI or Courtaulds, or a suite of office furniture for an embassy or a government department. For example the Barnsley workshop recently had an office suite back from the department of education for some repair work, it had originally been commissioned by a minister in the 70's. I doubt a government department or even many publicly quoted company's would risk the potential bad publicity of an original commission today, but back then there was at least some lucrative and prestige business to be had.

Starting in the 80's and 90's a few very interesting developments began to brew. 

Firstly there was resurgence in hobbyists wanting to learn furniture making. It had always been there, but the nascent growth in specialist tool makers suggests it was really starting to take off. This in turn led to a demand for training, a demand which independent furniture makers could tap into in order to keep themselves afloat.

Secondly there were a few wealthy collectors and museums who began to commission individual pieces not as furniture, but as important examples of the "decorative arts". Even though this had been bubbling under on both sides of the Atlantic the clear turning point for this in the UK was probably Makepeace's millennium chair,







This piece really heralded the mature reality of the studio movement, where instead of scrabbling to make a living from many smaller commissions the designer/maker could spend a year producing one amazing piece and then sell it for £50,000 or £100,00 or who knows where the ceiling would eventually be found,

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 62748.html

This changed everything. The new potential business model that excited makers was to raise their skills at Parnham or Barnsley (or in the US by studying with Osgood or Krenov), gain public awareness by winning a Guild Mark or showing their work at prestige exhibitions, and then staking profitability on one big roll of the dice. And there was added impetus to make this happen, because the antique market was virtually collapsing, with prices falling year after year. It was widely believed that antique prices were strongly correlated with house prices, in the 89-95 house price crash antiques dutifully fell, but they never subsequently recovered. So the financial crutch for an independent furniture maker, of steady if unspectacular restoration and repro business, was fast disappearing.

And for a few decades it really did play out that way and many makers look back on those times as a golden era. However, two developments acted to curb the enthusiasm for a future based around the studio furniture model. There was the dawning realisation that for many their _making_ skills were much stronger than their _designing_ skills, so the phrase "designer/maker" was really designer with a small "d" but maker with a capital "M". Plus the crash of 2007 seemed to bring an abrupt halt to the really big commissions. I don't operate in that market, but I know several makers who do, and from what I hear those six figure commissions have never really come back in anything like the same volume as before and there's a growing doubt that they ever will.

Which takes us to where we are today. There's still a market for hobbyist training, and I guess educator/makers like Marc Fish or Waters & Acland pay the bills by selling training more than from their breathtaking furniture creations. Although I'm not sure how robust that demand will be in a future without company pensions, and where today's twenty and thirty somethings will carry the burden of university fees and massive mortgages throughout their lives. And there are still big prestige commissions for the absolute pinnacle of makers, for example the furnishings for the Ashmolean Museum or Apple's decision to patronise independent makers for many of their office furnishings. 

But most independent makers that I know today have a _blended_ business model, they still design and make their individual pieces as a labour of love, but the bills really get paid from fitted furniture work, heritage joinery, or yacht fit outs. And that means instead of being located in some idyllic rural retreat they'll rent space in an industrial estate. What's more the reality of something like fitted furniture work means it tends to crowd out the pure furniture making, to succeed you need more space with a different layout, which in turn means higher overheads, which then feeds back to less time for agonising about the exact angle of splay on the leg of a console table! Alternatively there are still makers who stay afloat because they have a supportive partner with a "proper" job, or they took early retirement, or they combine freelance IT consulting with furniture making, or they're simply loaded after a short but spectacularly well remunerated city career! But what I don't see is a broadly based group of independent furniture makers surviving purely from furniture commissions. There's pretty much always a back story that explains why they stay afloat. 

Anyhow, that's my take on the market, but tea break's over so it's back to work!


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Jan 2017)

Bearing in mind Custard's point about the lack of data on the fine furniture industry, I wouldn't mind placing a small bet that 95% of it is in London and the South East - or at any rate, that's where most of the sales are made. That's just because that's where the largest disposable incomes are.

There's still plenty of work in the rest of the country, but it's more along the lines that Robin and Tomatwark have outlined. In my area, there are at least two or three really good general joiners who never advertise because all their work comes on recommendation - but they had to work hard to build that. I rather doubt they do a piece of freestanding furniture more than once every Preston guild, though.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2017)

There's a whole other market out there. 
Difficult to put a finger on it but it followed Conran/Habitat, vaguely "Country Living", sinks to "shabby chic", rises to IKEA (good design but too cheap), heavily represented in various interiors magazines. Perhaps started with Festival of Britain.
The key thing seems to be good design - the things themselves and the things being liveable with in their household situations.
There really is plenty of scope here for the small scale designer/maker.
Strongest and most alive in Scandinavia perhaps.

PS I always think of Makepeace et al as picturesque but basically a dead end. They seem to have set the tone amongst woodworkers but not necessarily in a good way. Basically very posh stuff for very wealthy people.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Jan 2017)

Interesting newspaper article. One thing that struck me, though, was that the need to persuade people that a mortgage wasn't necessary to commission furniture was mentioned - The woman who had those four chairs made paid one thousand pounds less than I paid for my first house six years after that.


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## Nelsun (6 Jan 2017)

Well this all makes for interesting reading; hearing different opinions on what has and hasn't worked for folk.

Coming back to Busy-boy Stan, I noticed he's deleted a post to his page asking the direct question: do you make the furniture in the UK? The poster even pushed for a definitive answer after an obvious dodge by Stan. To his credit though, he didn't delete another question, "Hi I really. Like some of your furniture. Just wonder what type of wood you use and where it comes from". His response: "It comes from trees". No sheet Sherlock!


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## tomatwark (6 Jan 2017)

If the like's of Chippendale had access to the a materials and machinery we have today he would have used them.

He was in the game to MAKE money and not indulge his passion, the fact was that he did not get paid on time for a lot of the stuff that is talked about now, then as now a lot of the folks with money and big houses try tried to get away with taking as long as possible to settle bills or pay peanuts for it, nothing has really changed in this regard.

I suspect that there was a lot of stuff he was involved in that was made to a budget and did not survive and was not documented.

A lot of the furniture made then was glued and nailed together made from cheap pine and then veneered as that was the best way to make something that made you money and looked good, the difference today is that veneered MDF and PLY and MFC has taken its place.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":3rv562qf said:


> If the like's of Chippendale had access to the a materials and machinery we have today he would have used them.
> 
> He was in the game to MAKE money and not indulge his passion, the fact was that he did not get paid on time for a lot of the stuff that is talked about now, then as now a lot of the folks with money and big houses try tried to get away with taking as long as possible to settle bills or pay peanuts for it, nothing has really changed in this regard.
> 
> ...


Yep. He made everything including coffins and painted furniture.
In many ways Mike is struggling with a dubious legacy from the Makepeace, Barnsley et al tendency, and is missing out on much interesting stuff and ideas going on elsewhere.


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## Beau (6 Jan 2017)

Jacob":21vom581 said:


> PS I always think of Makepeace et al as picturesque but basically a dead end. They seem to have set the tone amongst woodworkers but not necessarily in a good way. Basically very posh stuff for very wealthy people.




The way I see it is the likes of Makepeace are artists who happen to use wood. The art market seems to know no boundaries when it comes to price. Most of us are just craftsman but not necessarily great artist so have to compete on a totally different level. Given up myself now and make a crust via other means.


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## tomatwark (6 Jan 2017)

Jacob":9mxzorea said:


> Yep. He made everything including coffins and painted furniture.
> .



In other words the income stream the fitted kitchens and bedrooms etc give us today.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2017)

custard":2e82jr6s said:


> .....
> In the post war period independent furniture making was closely linked to the antiques business. ......


Pre and even post war a lot of stuff was made your local woodworker, quite separately from antiques and high value stuff.
When I lived in Wales there was a vivid example of this just down the road at what had been a water powered mill. 
It had been used for flour and also as a saw mill. 
It had been a timber yard supplying materials, gates, fence posts, and also made carts and farm apparatus - still had patterns for wheels etc hanging up around the walls. 
They were also undertakers, making coffins and running the hearse. 
On the side they made fairly basic but very nice furniture - tables, settles, dressers, and I was lucky enough to pick up some examples, and still have them.
They became a garage with petrol, diesel, paraffin etc. Pumps were still there rusting away, not having been used for 30 years or so.
If they'd been near the sea no doubt they would have made boats too.
I think this was typical all over the country, and a similar operation is described in "The Wheelwrights Shop".

The message is - if you've got the kit and you want to earn a living, be prepared to make anything and everything!
If you are going to be precious about like our woodbrains you will have to struggle or fail altogether. You might even end up as a teacher!


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## woodbrains (6 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":17us68rq said:


> Jacob":17us68rq said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. He made everything including coffins and painted furniture.
> ...



Hello, 

Your right, I forgot Chippendale made all that stuff, dab hand with an emulsion brush, too he was. Doh!, I'm an silly person! I shouldn't wonder he also made fine mahogany teeth for the local dentist. ( Who was also a barber and surgeon)

Oh hang on, wait, Chippendale was a designer, businessman and employed 30 staff. Of course he didn't make coffins and paint things himself, it is unlikely he made anything much after he set up in London. In any case, what relevance does a mid 18 C furniture designer have to a one man maker today? 

And does anybody actually read my posts? I said I have done painted built in furniture, site joinery, kitchens etc. I have also fitted wooden floors, fitted bedroom furniture, built sheds, stairs, windows, shop fronts, stud walls....... I was a veritable one man band, which is the problem. And I still could never have the funds to buy Altendorf panel saws and Panhans 4 siders or whatever the production guys use these days and employ staff to run the things. After a few years of subsistence living and not making a satisfying piece of furniture because I got the reputation of being a flipping site joiner, a painter a shed builder, anything but a good furniture maker, it was time to fold. It is not as if I hadn't worked for lawyers, surgeons, GP's, architects all with the money, but would not buy. They wanted my stuff, they loved it, but they would not buy. I had been told by an architect and an interior designer that I was charging too little, so I put my prices up a little. I lost every job I quoted for. It is the wealthy who will not spend, is what I'm trying to discuss, not a fix for me as I've been there and won't do it again. People will be cheated and buy dreadful quality stuff to save money rather than buy good stuff for a fair price and I'm interested why that culture has arisen.

Incidentally, I have never wanted to emulate Makepeace or Barnsley et all. I have only wanted to do reasonable things not high art or make egotistical statements.

Mike.


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Jan 2017)

It can be done - Suzanne Hodgson has been quietly beavering away near Chester for a couple of decades, I think.

http://www.suzannehodgson.co.uk/203134076


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## woodbrains (6 Jan 2017)

Cheshirechappie":cp1nm292 said:


> It can be done - Suzanne Hodgson has been quietly beavering away near Chester for a couple of decades, I think.
> 
> http://www.suzannehodgson.co.uk/203134076



Hello,

Yes, I know Suzanne well, lovely lady.

She struggles as despairately as I did, I'm afraid, though she might not have needed to do as much site joinery and shed building as me to make ends meet.

Mike.


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## NazNomad (6 Jan 2017)




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## Mr T (6 Jan 2017)

I think the one man high end bespoke furniture making model is just not viable, except for the few who are exceptional makers and can carve out a good customer base. Perhaps Custard is a good example of the latter, I don't know much about his business. Both Mike and I tried this model, Mike being a little more idealistic than I, declining to use man made boards etc. I think it is unviable because it is not possible for an individual to perform all the functions off the business and get enough hours in at the bench to be able to charge an acceptable price. As Custard said, some one man designer makers have other sources of income, a spouse in a profession perhaps or they have made their fortune in a previous occupation. It's a hard road if you don't have this back up. I am occasionally contacted by people considering taking the step in making, often with little actual craft experience, I have to admit that i am a bit of a wet blanket on these occasions

I would say that the one man designer/makermodel is almost a lifestyle decision. We were "Lifestyle woodworkers" (Paul Sellars is not alone!). However those who take this path should not be upset when the consumer declines to finance our chosen lifestyle. Some consumers will buy into the idyll of the lone craftsman but not enough to support the number aspiring to it. Jame Krenov has to take some of the responsibility for the many of the aspirants to this idyll, although his influence has probably waned in recent years. Many of those who take this path are loners who would find it difficult to work as part of a bigger workshop. I know the only time I have worked in a partnership it all went pear shaped.

What are the options when the one man high end model doesn't work for you. You could do kitchens and fitted furniture but that may not be what you aspired to originally. You could go beyond the one man thing and employ makers to spread the overheads but then you may find you are no longer a maker, just a manager and salesman. You could do the reverse and seek employment in another makers workshop. In my case I have slowly drifted into teaching until I made the commitment to concentrate on it alone. I like to think I am as good or even better teacher than I was maker. 

Finally one of the problems for the idealistic aspiring designer maker is that he sees his business aim as making furniture. If you are serious about your business you should see the aim of the business as making an income how you do it may be secondary.

Chris


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## acewoodturner (6 Jan 2017)

Regardless of what you make, first and foremost, you have to be a salesman. Doesn't matter if you are the best chair maker, box maker, cupboard maker in the land, if you cant sell them then you have cashflow problems. Your local enterprise company should have a variety of courses for people who run small businesses and they are usually free (they are up in Fife). You also need to look at how you market what ever you make. Websites these days are quite cheap to set up even if you have to do it yourself or pay somebody a few quid (despite my son having a degree in coding I have done my own website and shop!). A website doesn't have to be all singing and dancing with animated graphics and as I tell potential customers, "I am a woodworker, not a web worker" so its not brilliant and could be better. You can pick up a decent digital camera for not much more than £100 and take good photos of items you have made. Don't use a mobile phone for this as they aren't good enough. I am not really into social media so attempt to avoid this if possible, but its worth getting a Facebook page for the business and putting up info and photos on this. 
What you are trying to sell is your uniqueness and the fact you are local. What are the features of your items and what do these features translate to as benefits for your customers. Sit down and think about these and draw up a list. For example one of my main features of my products is that all the timber I use is from windblown trees all within a 5 mile or so radius of the workshop. I plank them up with a chainsaw mill and kiln dry the wood in my workshop. People love the fact that "no trees were chopped down to make my stuff" and the fact that I could actually show them the tree stump. Try asking that in Ikea!
I have spent a few years on the craft circuit which has lead to a lot of business with other business who are my main target customer with some very specialised products. I now seem to be the guy to phone for a lot of their required items which is a good position to be in, but it took me 8 years to get there and I ended up getting there via a personal recommendation. I know not everyone enjoys facing the public and trying to sell to them even after some training, so if this could be you how about asking someone else, who may be a bit more "lively" to front up your sales pitch at a craft fair/event and you could do the back up technical advice etc. You have to build up a relationship with a potential customer very quickly and if you are a bit dour or hacked off this will never happen!
Get yourself some decent quality business cards printed (avoid Vista print as they are naff) and hand them out 
There are plenty of woodfairs around the country now and there should be some close to you. These are ideal venues because people come to buy items made from wood and they are interested in wooden products. You just have to make sure they buy from you and not the bloke next to you.
Its a bit of a ramble and long winded but I know where you are coming from. The customers are there whatever your price point - you just have to sell to them!

Mike


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## Mr T (6 Jan 2017)

Cheshirechappie":10yppghk said:


> It can be done - Suzanne Hodgson has been quietly beavering away near Chester for a couple of decades, I think.
> 
> http://www.suzannehodgson.co.uk/203134076



I also know Suzanne, we were a members of th now moribond Northern Contemporary Furniture Makers. She is an amazing maker and also veery generous with the help. As Mike said she has also have some very lean times.

Chris


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## custard (6 Jan 2017)

You make some interesting points Chris, I'd add a few random observations of my own.

The objective I set myself was to earn a gross contribution of £1,000 a week (that's revenue after deducting variable costs, which for a furniture maker is chiefly the cost of timber). I reckon if you could _consistently_ hit that then you'd have a viable business that would allow for renting a workshop, running a vehicle, etc. I regularly hit that target across several consecutive months, but not across a full year. I think it's possible to get close, but pushing across that line for full year after full year is pretty tough. I doubt I'll ever entirely get there, and I'm sceptical that there are many makers achieving better financial results from pure furniture making. My overheads are vanishingly small, but for younger makers who have to pay rent and possibly repay a loan on a vehicle or machinery, then the lean periods could drag you under pretty quickly.

I might disagree with Chris about the importance of cabinet making _skill_ in the business equation. I've found very little correlation between project complexity and profitability. In fact it's the reverse, the really profitable jobs (at least in my experience) tend to be the simplest. As soon as I undertake more complex (and more satisfying) commissions, then profitability generally drops off a cliff. I'll live with that, sacrificing profit for satisfaction, but many makers don't have that luxury.

The absolute level of skill required to make commercially saleable furniture really isn't all that high, about a thousand hours of structured training would probably get you to the position where you could handle the majority of the _profitable_ commissions. You might not be very fast, but you'd know how to get the job done, and speed would come with practise. You wouldn't be able to make jointed chairs, or more complex veneering, or lamination work, or deal with compound angles or curved structures. But to be honest you make so little money doing these time hungry, technically demanding projects that you may decide you'd rather not have those skills in the first place!

Many makers don't seem to be very switched on when it comes to getting commissions. I realised early on that things I do without a second thought (like vigorously working a room to sell my furniture, or canvassing high end local shops to get my furniture displayed and noticed, or cadging free display space at county shows, or getting that all important 30% deposit paid and banked) are just beyond the comprehension of many makers. They could no more effectively promote their products than they could fly. And that's the flip side of the cabinet making skill issue. You might not need Guild Mark skill levels, but you absolutely need to be sufficiently gregarious and outgoing that you can actively sell your furniture to prospective clients.

Making skills aren't scaleable. If you're the greatest maker in the world the only way you can increase your income is with higher prices (hence the attraction of the "studio furniture" model). But design skills _are_ scaleable. If you're a genius designer you can sub out the making or take a royalty off your designs, and there's really no upper limit to your earning potential. The hard fact though is that there are loads of exceptional makers for each exceptional designer. And the paradox is that the real rewards of the studio furniture market accrue not to makers but to designers. Everyone's heard of John Makepeace, but how many people can name the guy that actually figured out how to build the Millennium Chair that I linked to earlier? In his own way he was every bit the genius as John Makepeace, no one had previously managed to pull off the free form lamination with invisible glue lines that that chair demanded, but his name doesn't figure in the history books.

It would be very tempting to defray overheads via a shared workshop. The benefits are so material that it's unsurprising that many makers decide this is the way forward. Unfortunately I know several cases where a shared workshop has gone pear shaped. It's easy to see how that might happen. Say you have a client who visits you at a shared workshop, but then sees a piece on another maker's bench and decides that's actually what they want. How would you resolve that one? Or what about a situation where one maker branches out into heritage joinery but ends up hogging the spindle moulder, or another maker takes on a fitted kitchen job and stuffs the workshop full of cabinets awaiting installation, how do you fix those issues? It seems to me that the only way to really make a shared workshop viable is if the co-operative model is abandoned and one person calls the shots and lays down clear rules.

If a maker is to survive there has to be a compelling justification for their price premium over High Street alternatives. There are loads of _possible_ justifications. Furniture that's sized to exactly fit a space in the client's home is an obvious one. Or furniture made from a tree felled on the client's land is another that crops up surprisingly regularly. I focus on three clear justifications. Made to fit a space is one that I've already mentioned and that's critical to many clients. Made to the highest traditional standards is another, but that generally requires some educating of the clients as to what a hand cut dovetail or a drawer muntin actually looks like! And the third is that I'll use timbers that aren't available anywhere else; volume furniture makers have no alternative but to stick to a small number of fairly bland timbers that are sufficiently homogenous to be accurately represented in brochures and web sites. The independent maker doesn't have those constraints, and once a client's eyes are opened to the possibilities of unique figured timbers then they either buy from you or they do without. Waney edged furniture is one obvious example of that idea in action.

Anyhow, that's my take on the business of independent furniture making. I've still not quite figured out how to consistently make the target I mentioned, but these are some of the lessons I've learned that get me a bit closer, hopefully someone might find them useful.


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## woodbrains (6 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Thanks Custard and Mr T. Perhaps some may now realise the reality of what we do, my case tried to do.

Funnily enough I came to the exact same figure of £1000 per week workshop contribution, and seldom made it. It didn't seem like such a big deal turning that over, but trying to get it each week was not possible for me.

The idea that I would limit the use of man made boards in my furniture was for similar reasons to Custard using unusual timbers not available in the usual outlets. (I did that too). The idea was that it becomes hard (er) to sell my stuff if it had lots of MDF in it because it had little to differentiate it from all the shop available offerings. The irony was that I made loads of fitted bedroom furniture from veneered MDF and painted plywood. So don't be too hard on me Chris, I was more pragmatic than you give me credit.

Mike.


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## AndyT (6 Jan 2017)

Just picking out one thought from some of the many interesting posts...

It does seem to be generally agreed that prices of most antique furniture are very low at present.

I like to think I know a bit more than average about furniture and can be a discerning purchaser. If I want to buy, say, a nice hand made chest of drawers, from good quality timber, with sound construction details, I can buy an antique one. I can see a selection of different styles and make a choice. 

So why should I take the risk of commissioning a craftsman to build me something, which would cost me a lot more, but still have corners cut in a struggle to make it economically?

This could be one of the reasons why small makers struggle.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":v0hp906f said:


> ..... Perhaps some may now realise the reality of what we do, my case tried to do.....


What - tried to make and sell stuff which nobody wanted at the price? 
Did it not occur to you to make something else which _would_ sell?



> This could be one of the reasons why small makers struggle.


Only _some_ small makers struggle - others are quite successful. Some even become big makers.


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## tomatwark (6 Jan 2017)

Mike

If it did not work out for you, it may of been that you were in the wrong place, and with the economy the way it has been the wrong time.

A lot of well known furniture makers have tried and failed and then dusted themselves off had another go and made it work.

At least you tried.

I must admit though that when I pull up at a big house that has several very expensive cars which are pretty new sat on the drive I normally take that with a pinch of salt, as they are probably on finance or lease and I am probably wasting my time as they may not actually have the cash to pay.

If however I pull up at a big house and the cars are a bit older I am normally bit more positive as from experience they are the folks who will have an idea of what things cost and will have the money to pay for it and are not bothered about the Jones next door.

This does not always happen but more often than not it is the case.

There is no easy answer.


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## custard (6 Jan 2017)

AndyT":3vffsrqp said:


> Just picking out one thought from some of the many interesting posts...
> 
> It does seem to be generally agreed that prices of most antique furniture are very low at present.
> 
> ...



Excellent points Andy, but I don't believe makers _are_ losing out to antiques. 

The antique furniture market is on its knees mainly because it's old, big, and dark in a market that wants modern, small, and light. I'm also seeing a fundamental change in attitudes amongst buyers below the age of say 50. Older buyers will accept the wonky cupboard doors and missing bits of cock beading in return for all that glorious patination. Younger buyers, more used to iPhone and BMW levels of fit and finish, just regard those things as evidence of decrepitude. 

I used to think the time will soon come when we'll witness a sea change back to antiques. Now I'm not so sure. All the evidence seems to say we're living in smaller and smaller spaces, even the wealthiest will trade off living space for a Thames side location or to be within a biscuit toss of Kensington High Street. And there's no escaping the fact that the majority of quality antique furniture is on the big side, so maybe it's now permanently marooned in the past for simple space reasons?


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## woodbrains (6 Jan 2017)

tomatwark":2ltizjcp said:


> Mike
> 
> If it did not work out for you, it may of been that you were in the wrong place, and with the economy the way it has been the wrong time.
> 
> ...



Hello,

I know I'm in the wrong place, but I can't afford to move, I don't earn enough!  

The real killer is, I would be content making stuff for my own consumption as a hobbyist, but my house has nowhere to do it. I try to do bits in the school workshop, but it is shut weekends.

And yes Jacob, if you read my posts, I did almost anything you could imagine from wood. Why don't you design me something that could work, batch produced if you like, projected asking price, etc. and I'll give it a go.

Mike.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2017)

It'd help if you posted up some pics of what you have made, which sold and which didn't.


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## woodbrains (7 Jan 2017)

Jacob":q7q77nz3 said:


> It'd help if you posted up some pics of what you have made, which sold and which didn't.




Hello,

Everything sold, I made to commission. The problem was the price I had to sell to get the commission was unsustainably low. Asking the sustainable price never got the work, so I lowered so hard the pips squeaked, and still only managed to get some. 

More examples, when I got the job at school, the head asked me would I make some honours boards to match existing antique ones, but taller and narrower to fit the wall spaces. We settled on a price of £ 2000 for two oak, broken scroll arch topped boards with carved acanthus leaf and linen fold motif between the arches, dentil moulds and pillasters etc. You know the sort of thing. I knew I was cheap but that was the max budget and I'd just started a new job, what choice did I have. Besides, I still had the workshop for a few more months lease. Then the caretaker told me the head asked Todhunter Davis down the road for a quote and turned them down at 4000. They just won't pay!

I did a built in bedroom furniture job though an interior designer for a couple of GP's . Oak veneered MDF with oak solids, alcove wardrobes over drawers, some presses, high cupboards on top etc. It looked nice, nothing you saw in the shops but not ostentatious. The price wasn't too shoddy, not comfortable but OK, if I had a few more consecutive jobs the same I could have been a bit hopeful. I finished the installation and the happy lady paid there and then and asked would I do a metamorphic library steps/chair. Now I wanted that job, I had a bit of breathing space, I'd just been paid and bespoke chair would have been a good portfolio addition. I thought I'd not push hard with the price, if I broke even, I'd do it for kicks. I said about 1000 and was turned down instantly. Not even within negotiation range! A bespoke metamorphic chair for a thousand was a flipping bargain, unsustainably cheap for me and not even weeks pay for a GP let alone a couple. It just so happened that I met with Suzanne Hodgeson, mentioned above, a day or so later. She told me she had just done a metamorphic chair for £2000. I just couldn't get the breaks. Think about what would be involved in a chair design like that. It is labourious mocking up and trialling the thing before you can even think of making. It can't be done for 1000 let alone less.

Mike.


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2017)

> Think about what would be involved in a chair design like that. It is labourious mocking up and trialling the thing before you can even think of making. It can't be done for 1000 let alone less.


You are absolutely right.
One here for £120. Cheapo import as per our OP, which takes us full circle.
One here for £8000 which is more like it.
I've had the same parallel problem. Was asked to make "metamorphic" out-door pub tables (folds from table to bench etc) by a chap who had seen one and brought a photo. He's tracked them down in a catalogue and found them for about £250. He didn't want just one but thought he could sell them in ones and twos and I might do a run, competitively priced.
An obvious non starter but not wanting to say no outright I explained the complications - not least the cost of developing a design. I suggested that a good short cut would be for him to go out and buy one for me to work over and copy/improve. Only £250!! But that was too much for him and the end of the project!

Who needs clients like that (and like yours)? Maybe the idea of getting commissions is itself a non starter, unless you are very lucky? Some of them get a buzz from having a forelock pulling craftsman at their command but have no idea themselves about design and costs.

But on the other hand - %£ck these "clients" - why not make items such as these (or others of your choice) in your own good time, get them sorted and get out there and flog them?

You don't need or want "commissions" they are a PITA (except perhaps as a sideline to your main operation) but you do need to make stuff and sell it.


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## Mr T (7 Jan 2017)

Jacob: 

"The message is - if you've got the kit and you want to earn a living, be prepared to make anything and everything!
If you are going to be precious about like our woodbrains you will have to struggle or fail altogether. You might even end up as a teacher!"

Nothing wrong with teaching, I quite enjoy it!



custard":1qza5o27 said:


> Many makers don't seem to be very switched on when it comes to getting commissions. I realised early on that things I do without a second thought (like vigorously working a room to sell my furniture, or canvassing high end local shops to get my furniture displayed and noticed, or cadging free display space at county shows, or getting that all important 30% deposit paid and banked) are just beyond the comprehension of many makers. They could no more effectively promote their products than they could fly. And that's the flip side of the cabinet making skill issue. You might not need Guild Mark skill levels, but you absolutely need to be sufficiently gregarious and outgoing that you can actively sell your furniture to prospective clients.
> 
> .



Quite agree Custard. This relates to what I was saying about attitude to the business, many idealistic one man makers think of themselves just as Furniture makers when they should consider themselves first and foremost businessmen.However often they don't have the temperament for this, me included. Not everyone has what it takes to be a businessman.These individauls, if they want to continue making should move to employed work.

Your estimate of £1000 per week about tally's with mine when I was making full time, I didn't achieve it very often, mainly for the reasons outlined above.



Jacob":1qza5o27 said:


> woodbrains":1qza5o27 said:
> 
> 
> > ..... Perhaps some may now realise the reality of what we do, my case tried to do.....
> ...



I think you are being unreasonably harsh on Mike here. He has said repeatedly that he tried to diversify, it just did not work for him. Not everyone is successful, there will always be those that "become big makers" and those that continue to struggle and there can be many reasons for this. Everything always seems so black and white in your world Jacob.

Chris


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2017)

Mr T":1gpw49xf said:


> J....Not everyone is successful, there will always be those that "become big makers and those that continue to struggle and there can be many reasons for this. Everything always seems so black and white in your world Jacob.
> 
> Chris


Not really black and white - I've had to dodge around from one fiasco to another and have only been successful intermittently. But I have stayed in work doing more or less what I want to do (except for brief period of collapse of marriage, business, and some crappe jobs)
Mike is vocally blaming the universe for lack of taste and being rude about everybody elses' humble efforts ("might as well be making cardboard boxes" etc)
But he seems to have made two big simple mistakes - to expect to rely on commissions and to expect to have his talent recognised as of right. 
Seems to me a very old fashioned and slightly romantic idea. Times have changed - almost everybody wanting a "metamorphic chair" (or any other object) is going to just what I did and google and be immediately presented with 356000 hits. it then takes 10 minutes to buy one and it might even arrive the following day.
The point is - Mike's chair should have been in there near the top. Why would anyone prefer to commission one unseen, not even designed, expensive, from a craftsman of unknown ability, and have to wait months?
They might do this if he had a track record over many years and a back catalogue to show for it, was a well known name, featuring in the interior mags etc, but it takes time to get there.

And yes "Nothing wrong with teaching" I agree.


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## tomatwark (7 Jan 2017)

Everyone will have struggled at some point.

I was in business for 10 years and it was really tough at times, when my landlord decided to sell my workshop for housing, I started to look around for new premises.

What then happened is a local furniture firm got wind of this and made me an offer I could not refuse, this meant I could go to work in the morning and go home at night, have a beer and get a wage at the end of every week.

I took it, 10 years of silly hours and not being certain where the next bit of money was coming from had taken it's toll.

5 years on in 2005 I moved up here as I had met my wife, I saw some nice little workshops and decided to try again, if I had a crystal ball however I would not have, as 2009-2013 were really tough.

I will say that I have taken a few gambles to get where I am now and they have paid off.

BUT I am under no illusions that it is plain sailing from here, if anything it is now tougher as I have to find work for my staff and also pay larger overheads.

And I now don't make anything but drive a desk and run around talking to customers.

I know where you are coming from Mike I have been there.


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## RobinBHM (7 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":3mcp2h5s said:


> tomatwark":3mcp2h5s said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3mcp2h5s said:
> ...



I dont think its true that customers wont spend the money or that there is a culture of people buying rubbish. 

The difficulty being a one man band high bespoke maker is a lackmof marketing / branding. Perhaps even more importantly, there is a lack of a tangeable product for sale. When I started as a joinery wotkshop, I researched loads of other small joinery shops doing similar, they mostly all advertised thry could do, windows, cupboards, stairs etc etc and prided themselves on 'we make anything'. The problem with that is there is no product. Imagine going into a store which is empty but a friendly salemen standing with a scrapbook of poor site shots and saying oh yes we can make anything........

I moved away from general joinery and decided to specialize in orangeries so I invested in a search engine optimised website, professional photography and a 50 page brochure. Now I can go and sell jobs for £100k because customers can see a product.

In the same way with furniture, its the marketing that counts. Your customers may not buy a £3k chair, but they will buy a £70k Mark Wilkinson kitchen.

The difficulty for highly skilled cabinetmakers is often they are amazing craftsmen but very poor at marketing and selling. Custard refers to this and says the networking etc is key to his work

Also Im not sure customers care how something is made, if a piece of amazing art is created by a cnc machine does it reduce its importance, I dont think so. 

There is a place for 1 man bands but they still need a brochure and good branding and an understanding of the market. There is plenty of demand for fitted furniture, ok its mfc carcases, but buy in the parts and do something special with the detailing.

There is a high demand for AV walls. With all the latest tvs and surround sound, there is an opportunity for some great designs. Maybe include built in power points for ipad / phone chargers

Kitchens - there is a vogue for these huge pantry cabinets which can be beautiful pieces of cabinetmaking and could include some unusual timbers etc.


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":27wrrhzq said:


> ............ Why don't you design me something that could work, batch produced if you like, projected asking price, etc. and I'll give it a go.
> 
> Mike.


Because you need to go out on a limb for yourself, not expect a client to commission, pay up front, take all the risk, provide the design.

Take the metamorphic chair idea; a good idea, useful item applicable to many scenarios needing a step up access - kitchens, bedroom, library.
Go out and buy a one (or two) cheap examples. Try them out, see how they work. Look at others on line. Take apart, work up an improved design of your own. Make a set of 10. Put them on ebay, etsy, small ads, own web site, take to craft fairs, give one to your mother-in-law, badger your friends, even try retailers if desperate.
You never know until you try!

PS 'kinnel there's one here for £60. 
No doubt it's crappe but it could be quicker and easier to work out the geometry by buying one rather than spending a few hours on the drawing board. Treat it as a first maquette. Beat them at their own game!


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## woodbrains (7 Jan 2017)

Hello,

I have made pieces to try and sell in the past and have just started an etsy account and hope to put on some things in a few weeks, jewellery boxes and smaller items. I'm trying to keep the price in the back pocket money range, but it is hard to keep things simple without making pedestrian things. I'm working on batches at the moment, hope they be ready soon.

I'm sure Custard and Mr. T will confirm this, but it is actually hard to make things to sell. It ties up funds and takes up workshop space, and when funds are none existent it can just be unviable. Finding an outlet is difficult, galleries like to have the stuff as it adds diversity to their space, but they do nothing to promote you despite doubling your ticket price. Things sit there, get a bit knarly from all the prodding fingers and little accidents, and then you get asked to remove them. Some galleries actually take any makers tickets off the work, so the public don't get directly in touch with the makers, so as a promotional tool, it is useless. Retail shops, at least round here, won't entertain having the stuff, they know it won't sell and takes up space for the imported tat. Some interior designers have it, if you promise a cut from any work they chuck your way, but the items get marked up the same as gallery prices, so puts people off actually pursuing that avenue. Trade shows/design shows, done those, can be expensive for a tiny pitch. Frequented by people out for a day trip, not many serious customers. They can get you known and sometimes generate commissions somewhere in the future, but often not. The last one I did had loads of interest from a gushing audience, gave out loads of leaflets took loads of phone numbers from people who definitely wanted something.... must come to visit my home to discuss further. I followed up the leads and got nothing but evasive excuses why they couldn't invite me round just yet, but they'd get back to me, definitely looove you stuff, yadda, yadda. 

Websites, we all have those, how do you get traffic to get your listing within the first 20 pages of search results? More money and time wasted doing mindless social media nonsense. Twitter, bah!

Footfall from those wealthy enough to buy your stuff is precisely zero in your concrete industrial unit in industrial wasteland. Workshop open days, ditto, no one wants a day trip there. Could go on, but the upshot is, the hit rate for all this effort is vanishingly small and you haven't been to the workshop to make something any where near enough, the tools are sitting there, workshop rent is paid and you are out visiting interior designers who saw something at a trade show and would love a dining table for this fabulous barn conversion, and it will look like this (that will fall down) it could be made from this wood and that metal ( that's only available in turning square dimensions and that amount of welded stainless steel would blow your budget into the statosphere alone).

It is a nightmare.

Mike.


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":17zubcnl said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have made pieces to try and sell in the past and have just started an etsy account and hope to put on some things in a few weeks, jewellery boxes and smaller items. I'm trying to keep the price in the back pocket money range, but it is hard to keep things simple without making pedestrian things. I'm working on batches at the moment, hope they be ready soon.


Good idea! Why not post a few pics here? Have a web page and include it in your signature - a lot of other traders do.
Don't rely on one outlet - try them all


> I'm sure Custard and Mr. T will confirm this, but it is actually hard to make things to sell. It ties up funds and takes up workshop space, and when funds are none existent it can just be unviable. ......


Even harder to get a commission and expect someone else to tie up their funds and just patiently wait.
NB a lot of other people will also tell you that it's easy to make things to sell. Some win some lose.


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## Random Orbital Bob (7 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":3c4hs33c said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have made pieces to try and sell in the past and have just started an etsy account and hope to put on some things in a few weeks, jewellery boxes and smaller items. I'm trying to keep the price in the back pocket money range, but it is hard to keep things simple without making pedestrian things. I'm working on batches at the moment, hope they be ready soon.
> 
> ...



It does sound soul destroying Mike, you have my sympathy. Are you still in it or have you already got out? You sound jaded and if you are still involved, maybe the right choice is a change of direction??


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## woodbrains (7 Jan 2017)

Random Orbital Bob":32q0gca9 said:


> It does sound soul destroying Mike, you have my sympathy. Are you still in it or have you already got out? You sound jaded and if you are still involved, maybe the right choice is a change of direction??



Hello.

I got out about 6 years ago, partially at first hoping to work a job and try to keep making with a view to getting back in at some point, with a bit of capital and some pieces to display. Renting the workshop on a low wage as a school technician made that a non-starter so I got out completely after I used the workshop set up to restore my house. 

TBH I don't mean to sound as dreadfully negative as I obviously come across, I still love designing and making things, but I do believe it isn't possible to earn a living that way. But if that is what you feel in your bones you want to do, then I suppose you have to try. Of course some will get better luck and some will end up making kitchens or something in a production workshop and employ staff. I'm sure they are satisfied with that route, it fulfills a need in the market and has its own challenges. But it must be realised by those who do that, that it is not the same as what I wanted to do, so doesn't tick the boxes for me, creatively. We have heard people doing that becoming desk jockeys and not making again. I'm not knocking them, it earns them a living for their families and that is important.

At the minute I work in a secondary school Product Design Dept, which is a watered down version of what used to be Craft Design and Technology itself a watered down version of woodwork, metal work and engineering drawing. It has little in the way of fulfillment either and the pay is rubbish really but regular. The holidays are good and the plan was to do some making of my own then. I still have all the tools and machines from when I was a full time maker. My house is too small to have a shed to make in though I do have one at my mum's home; a PITA in itself as it is a half hour drive and tunnel toll each way to get there. Visits after dinner when there is nothing else to do in the evening is not really viable. It is difficult as a hobby for me too.

Mike.


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## RobinBHM (7 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":32iwzdog said:


> Random Orbital Bob":32iwzdog said:
> 
> 
> > It does sound soul destroying Mike, you have my sympathy. Are you still in it or have you already got out? You sound jaded and if you are still involved, maybe the right choice is a change of direction??
> ...



Ironically I am in that situation (desk jockey) my natural interest is hands on practical work, but my actual job now is all office based, its anazing how much administration is required to keep a small joinery company working. Dealing with customers, buying etc etc does add up to a lot of time. I do still enjoy the technical design, creative design so it isnt all bad. Long hours though and last year I had about 3 days holiday. Im now lookung into the future for an exit strategy, something I can do from home or a van with no overheads. Sadly my house location doesnt have space for a workshop although enough space for a decent office, so woodworking from home is not an option.

I do feel sometimes it would be nice to be without the worry of having large overhead costs (IRO £6k per month not including wages).


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## SteveF (7 Jan 2017)

my "retirement" plan was always basic but well built items
I go to pubs and think the outdoor benches \ planters are rubbish, i could build that and offer a maintenance plan
I always thought I could do better than the rubbish they buy
go to garden centre and look at carp bird tables, same thing
as you can see, I never planned to be making furniture
I still have to work and not retired so my plan is 10 yrs away sadly
i am not sure there will be a pub by the time I can put anything into action
so my future looks bleak, but then I go to a friends house and they spent £30 on 4 little coasters with a small stand
the wood would cost £5 and about 30 minutes work
£25 profit in materials, but no way you could sell 10 a day let alone 1, so I know I cant even begin to make a retirement plan
so even if you build tat, i am not sure how anyone makes a living in woodwork
I understand the fine furniture makers ( lets choose Custard as an example) can ask high premium, and I agree they deserve the recognition and rightly so
there can't be many people making quality pieces like he turns out, even if not to my taste (does not detract from their skill)
but if you are using high quality timbers, then your commissions are swallowed by timber costs, so still not a worthy profit

I have seen the kitchens Dr Bob makes...quality is understatement...but I am sure he is one of the lucky ones and tbh it is not a route most want to take

just my 2 pence input in to one of the most interesting threads i have seen on this forum

Steve


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## Jacob (8 Jan 2017)

SteveF":36cb1tnt said:


> ...
> so my future looks bleak, but then I go to a friends house and they spent £30 on 4 little coasters with a small stand
> the wood would cost £5 and about 30 minutes work
> £25 profit in materials, but no way you could sell 10 a day let alone 1, so I know I cant even begin to make a retirement plan....


You wouldn't just make coasters you'd just do the odd run in between a thousand other projects.
But on the other hand if coasters really turn you on maybe you could just make them alone and sell them on the web. I've seen quite a few sites which sell only one or two simple things. Most extreme was an ebay seller selling "guitar strap locks" which were basically beer bottle washers for Grolsch type bottles, available for home brewers. As far as I know he didn't sell anything else. He had many thousands of sales. They work really well!


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## custard (8 Jan 2017)

SteveF":wbr0i4zb said:


> then I go to a friends house and they spent £30 on 4 little coasters with a small stand
> the wood would cost £5 and about 30 minutes work



Hey, everyone makes their own decisions about how they want to live their own lives, and it's not my place to pass judgement on anyone else's plans, but that really doesn't sound much like life-enhancing craft work to me. In fact banging out endless coasters sounds more like the worst kind of factory drudgery. 

My guess is that if you were to find a way of making that business plan work then you'd spend six months congratulating yourself on being free from the shackles of your current job, followed by the rest of your life wondering why on earth you gave up a secure job for mindless, repetitive coaster production!


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## Jacob (8 Jan 2017)

Dunno don't be so hasty!
I've done massively repetitive work (toy making - wood, cloth, paint etc) and it has a strange satisfaction all of it's own.
The same sort of satisfaction that a potter must get when opening a kiln full of perfect copies, or a baker with an oven full of identical pies!
No mystery here, it's how a lot of things are made. 
Do you think printers get bored after the first one off? There are even craft printers using expensive papers, old presses, woodblocks etc who would get great satisfaction if the 1000th came out well.
Nearly all crafts involve repetition.
Emphasis on the unique one-off is relatively rare and, as woodbrains has convincingly explained at great length, a miserable and unsatisfactory business model.
If it's any good it's stupid just to make one - just keep churning them out, they get better, easier to produce, all parts of the process get improved, material supplies etc. gradual approach to perfection!


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## Woodmatt (8 Jan 2017)

I know of a pretty upmarket retailer with a fairly large chain of stores who had a chair that they paid an English company to make for them and it cost them £164 and it retailed at around £315.That same chair is now being made for them in Indonisia and they pay £32 including shipping. How can uk manufacturers compete with that and who is the cheat there.


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## MikeJhn (8 Jan 2017)

Just before I retired I was involved with a house building project in the most exclusive road in Hampstead, Not Bishops Avenue, the existing property was bought for nine million pounds, two house's where built on the footprint, one sold for twenty five million and the other more substantial house sold for sixty seven million, the point of this is the furniture used to dress these properties for sale, on inspecting the lager property the prospective buyer said he liked the furniture and asked how much for it all, he was told seven million, he promptly replied I will take that as well, to put this into perspective the glass chandelier hanging in the stair atrium was priced at seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, so the money is out there and people are prepared to pay for what they like, I just wonder if he would have paid that for a house dressed with antiques, I doubt it, we live in a contemporary world.

Mike


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## Jacob (8 Jan 2017)

Woodmatt":ot7gelbt said:


> I know of a pretty upmarket retailer with a fairly large chain of stores who had a chair that they paid an English company to make for them and it cost them £164 and it retailed at around £315.That same chair is now being made for them in Indonisia and they pay £32 including shipping. How can uk manufacturers compete with that and who is the cheat there.


You either become an importer yourself or you make something which can't be imported.


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## woodbrains (8 Jan 2017)

Jacob":37298ezn said:


> Woodmatt":37298ezn said:
> 
> 
> > I know of a pretty upmarket retailer with a fairly large chain of stores who had a chair that they paid an English company to make for them and it cost them £164 and it retailed at around £315.That same chair is now being made for them in Indonisia and they pay £32 including shipping. How can uk manufacturers compete with that and who is the cheat there.
> ...



Hello,

They'll import everything sooner or later. Even bespoke joinery is already and no doubt that will only increase. The import the cheap labour to fit it too. 

Mike.


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## Beau (8 Jan 2017)

There are still people out there prepared to pay what it costs to get custom made furniture. I may have given it up but not because of lack of demand. Almost everything that left my workshop was a one off and would have gone stir crazy long ago if making just a few things over and over again. Jacob we are not all wired the same


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## custard (8 Jan 2017)

SteveF":1wq75e9n said:


> but if you are using high quality timbers, then your commissions are swallowed by timber costs, so still not a worthy profit



That isn't strictly true Steve. There's an anomaly in the timber market that means I pay _less_ per cubic foot for boards of heavily rippled Black Walnut like this,







than rubbish Black Walnut like this,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Walnut- ... SwiONYPvMV

Thirty or forty years I can remember at least three or four UK veneer mills just within my small sphere of awareness, so across the entire country there must have been many more. Today there isn't a single specialised veneer mill anywhere in the UK. So that means when a rare and fantastic log arrives at a UK mill they either have to gather up quite a few to entice over a continental buyer from the veneer trade, or they just shrug their shoulders and treat it as normal timber. These heavily figured boards are no good to the volume timber buyers, they need bland stuff that looks like the samples in their timber flooring catalogues or on their office furniture web sites. Yes, there's a market for luthier timber, but I've got a theory (it's no more than a theory so if someone knows better I'm open to changing my mind!) that the pipeline for luthier timber is absolutely stuffed to the gunwales and the absolute volume that gets sold through and ends up in a musical instrument is nugatory. Net result is that the capacity of the luthier trade to _absorb_ more timber isn't actually all that great.

The other factor is that, apart from Oak, hardly any hardwood is _graded_ in this country. So (rough pricing here) Sweet Chestnut is £40 a cubic foot, Oak is £50, Cherry is £60, Walnut is £80, etc. However, as a natural material there's a massive quality range in wood, but out there in the real market there's relatively little price distinction between say a dog rough board of grey Sycamore that's full of shakes and sticker marks, and a breathtaking board of bright white Sycamore with sparkling ripple figure running clear across from edge to edge. 

It makes no sense to me, but I'm happy to dive in and exploit this market anomaly. Consequently I can find enough veneer or musical instrument grade timber as solid boards to offer clients spectacular and unique pieces of furniture that they'll never ever find on the high street. I often encourage prospective clients to look at the Heal's Furniture web site,

https://www.heals.com/furniture.html?gc ... oCMGnw_wcB

I tell them I'll make something equivalent, but it will built to a far higher standard, from unique and spectacular timbers, you can decide on sizing and stylistic detailing, and it will cost you only a little bit more than you'd spend at Heals. 

Hey, I certainly haven't got all the answers, after all I'm still not consistently hitting that £1000 a week target, but at least i'm getting close enough to keep trying!


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## Jacob (8 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":3dgg4wct said:


> ...
> 
> They'll import everything sooner or later. Even bespoke joinery is already and no doubt that will only increase. The import the cheap labour to fit it too.
> 
> Mike.


So you do what I did i.e. something the importers couldn't possibly do. I specialised in "period" joinery i.e. perfect replication or repair of old stuff. Loads of work out there, never ran out. There was a brief moment once when I was sweeping the floor and I suddenly realised I hadn't got another job on. Just then the phone rang!
Not that I got rich BTW :roll:


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## MikeJhn (8 Jan 2017)

MikeJhn":heyw3tij said:


> Just before I retired I was involved with a house building project in the most exclusive road in Hampstead, Not Bishops Avenue, the existing property was bought for nine million pounds, two house's where built on the footprint, one sold for twenty five million and the other more substantial house sold for sixty seven million, the point of this is the furniture used to dress these properties for sale, on inspecting the lager property the prospective buyer said he liked the furniture and asked how much for it all, he was told seven million, he promptly replied I will take that as well, to put this into perspective the glass chandelier hanging in the stair atrium was priced at seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, so the money is out there and people are prepared to pay for what they like, I just wonder if he would have paid that for a house dressed with antiques, I doubt it, we live in a contemporary world.
> 
> Mike



To carry on from this and to take up Custard's point, the twenty seven doors in the larger house where all book matched Walnut veneer on either side of a corridor, they did this buy buying up all the veneer that was available in the UK at the time causing a shortage, I am sure Custard will remember it happening.

Mike


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## custard (8 Jan 2017)

MikeJhn":1xig6rho said:


> the twenty seven doors in the larger house where all book matched Walnut veneer on either side of a corridor, they did this buy buying up all the veneer that was available in the UK at the time causing a shortage, I am sure Custard will remember it happening.
> 
> Mike



Mike, I suspect that's a bit of an urban myth. We may not have any veneer mills left in this country, but Capital Crispin in London are still one of the world's premier veneer wholesalers,

https://www.capitalcrispin.com

They could supply that quantity of book matched Walnut veneer from stock without breaking into a sweat.

The problem a maker has is that just being able to buy luscious veneers doesn't solve their problems. They need _matching_ solid stock for legs and lippings. Consequently I'll often use veneers, but I saw them myself from solid boards and so can produce a piece of furniture that's "all of a whole".


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## MikeJhn (8 Jan 2017)

Have to admit I did not check my source of information, which was the building companies own bespoke joinery shop that made the three meter high doors.

Mike


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## woodbrains (8 Jan 2017)

Hello,

Indeed, timber costs have the smallest relevance in the cost of a bespoke product. It is primarily the makers time. 

Once made a walnut chair that got many admiring comments, TBH it was only OK not my best work, it wasn't as comfy as I'd hoped, but it looked pretty. I was trying to break something out quick, so development wasn't as good as it should have been. Anyway, one fellow wanted the chair, but, as always didn't want to pay the asking price. Now it is in everybody's head that hardwood is expensive and that was where he thought the high cost was coming from. 'What could you make it from, to make it cheaper' he demanded. 'Well' I said, 'it will take exactly the same time to make if I did it in this Yellow Poplar, and save you maybe 50 quid, but when I spend an extra day to stain and polish it to look like walnut, It will need to be 150 more expensive' I still don't think he ever understood why that was the case. I was always undercharging anyway, he probably missed a bargain if he had have just bought it. The thing is, people will not let go of their preconceived ideas of value and the cost of the things we make.

Mike.


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## custard (8 Jan 2017)

Incidentally, when a veneer mill cuts a log there's a hefty chunk of the log that's left over at the end, the piece that was fastened in the cutters jaws. UK veneer mills would often scrap these pieces, which were thick boards of absolutely dazzling timber. I used to give the foreman a bottle of scotch or a carton of cigarettes and load up all I wanted.

Those were the days!


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## MikeJhn (8 Jan 2017)

When I lived in shoe box in middle of motorway............................ :wink: 

Mike


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## woodbrains (8 Jan 2017)

MikeJhn":35s6ow86 said:


> When I lived in shoe box in middle of motorway............................ :wink:
> 
> Mike



Hello,

Bloody luxury!

Mike. (Other Mike.)


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## Mr T (8 Jan 2017)

Hi Custard

I don't suppose you could divulge exactly where you source your timber by any chance?!!



MikeJhn":2zfihj4a said:


> Just before I retired I was involved with a house building project in the most exclusive road in Hampstead, Not Bishops Avenue, the existing property was bought for nine million pounds, two house's where built on the footprint, one sold for twenty five million and the other more substantial house sold for sixty seven million, the point of this is the furniture used to dress these properties for sale, on inspecting the lager property the prospective buyer said he liked the furniture and asked how much for it all, he was told seven million, he promptly replied I will take that as well, to put this into perspective the glass chandelier hanging in the stair atrium was priced at seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, so the money is out there and people are prepared to pay for what they like, I just wonder if he would have paid that for a house dressed with antiques, I doubt it, we live in a contemporary world.



Unfortanately I think this only happens on once in a blue moon Mike.

Chris


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## SteveF (8 Jan 2017)

Mr T said:


> Hi Custard
> 
> I don't suppose you could divulge exactly where you source your timber by any chance?!!
> 
> ...


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## custard (8 Jan 2017)

There's only one or two secret sources, most are common knowledge. The tricks are persistence and turning up in person.

The best source for African timbers in the UK is Kevin at Surrey Timbers, the best source for South American and Asian timbers is Bob at Timberline (ideally located for you Steve), both also get lots of other interesting stuff, but very little of it ever makes it onto their web sites. Yandles is usually worth a visit, they stockpile for their open days so aim to go a little before those dates. None of these are particularly cheap, but all are easy places for the hobbyist to visit. And in any event, if you're going to sink a couple of hundred hours of precious free time into making a family heirloom then why would the price of the timber be of the slightest consequence?

If you're a bit more knowledgeable you should definitely go to Tylers and English Woodlands Timber, you may have to get your face known to be steered towards the really good stuff, and possibly buy in slightly larger quantities, but they will regularly have exceptional boards in stock. Both get flitches rejected by flooring manufacturers because they're too highly figured and both have sky high reputations for the quality of their kilning. 

If you're looking for Elm or the whitest and best Rippled Sycamore (or ultra clean Douglas Fir which is increasingly becoming a desirable furniture timber) then you'll probably do best to visit some of the Scottish yards, it's usually a treasure hunt of following up leads as they won't all have everything all the time, but they gossip amongst themselves so if the wood is there someone will know about it. Scottish Wood in Dunfermline is a good place to start or there are some great little yards around Dunkeld. 

The very best of the old favourites; the Rosewoods, Satinwoods, Ebonies, and Spanish Mahoganies for example; often came from antique restorers who were retiring and selling up their stock. But they've largely gone now, plus CITES and changing consumer tastes means the door's largely closed. Anyhow it's time to let those species recuperate, so much as I enjoyed working with them we should probably all just move on. I'll use what I've got but I'm not replacing.

Most of my Tiger Oak, Rippled Ash, and clean Yew comes from smaller mills in the South East, some of them don't even have a phone number let alone a web site, but ask around and you'll find these tiny mills are everywhere, there's nothing particular special about the ones I use apart from the fact that they're local to me. You'll view dozens of flitches before you find a decent one, but then it'll be pure magic and the price will be no different from mediocre stuff. The best English Walnut generally comes from France or Italy and is found at the big yards, but occasionally a smaller mill will have a specimen Walnut boule, that unfortunately will unlikely to be a bargain but it's always worth looking. One great thing about smaller timber mills is they source locally, and from a commercial perspective it's great to be able to tell clients exactly what field their sideboard grew in!

Then there are the "specials" that some enterprising individual will import and shop around. At the moment there's a load of Burmese Teak salvaged from a freighter that was sunk by a U-Boat in the Irish sea, I've seen some of these boards and the best of them is as fresh as the day they were loaded and big enough for a fourteen seat dining table from a single board. In fact there's quite a bit of previously submerged and abandoned but now salvaged timber becoming available, Moss & Co usually have some interesting examples. If you're interested in timber with a back story then just ask around, timber yards all gossip so everyone knows who's currently got what.

The main thing is to get out there in person, to look and to talk, and to avoid getting up the yard's nose by not having a clue what you want or haggling over a gift horse. It's also worth remembering that stock is constantly turning over, ideally you want to get to the position where a yard will call you when something interesting is arriving. More realistically you'll have to put your time in by visiting local yards regularly, so you're there in the week or two after a quality delivery and before it's been picked over too many times. That's not really a hardship though, clambering around timber yards looking for treasure might be time consuming but it's brilliant fun.

Good luck!


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## Woodmatt (9 Jan 2017)

Great post thank you Custard.As I was reading through you list of places to buy I was waiting for you to tell us of the great little yard in West Wales but I was sadly disappointed, oh well more trips over the Seven Bridge by the sounds of it but again thanks.


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## MrTeroo (9 Jan 2017)

You are very generous with your knowledge Custard. Thank you.


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## bugbear (9 Jan 2017)

North Heigham Sawmill used to be a Norwich (gone for a decade at least) - a treasure trove of small volume exotics and tonewoods.

BugBear


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## Mr T (9 Jan 2017)

I was actually being a little facetious when I asked you to divulge your sources. That was very generous Custard. Of course touring round swamills will put your costs up, but if you enjoy it!

Chris


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## AndyT (9 Jan 2017)

Specially for Woodmatt, looking for hardwood boards in South Wales. 

I've not been there myself yet, but this place is on the right/wrong side of the Severn Bridge. It sells UK timber and has a showroom of individually priced boards. It's also had some good comments on here from people who have used it.

Wentwood Timber Centre, Caldicot 

http://www.wentwoodtimbercentre.co.uk/


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## gmgmgm (9 Jan 2017)

Kentbeaver69":1ap9reku said:


> I got to the workshop this morning to be confronted by a disgruntled colleague.
> 
> He was all like - "what's the point in us breaking our backs to make good stuff when there's people importing furniture from Indonesia and making out its made in this country".
> 
> So of course I asked him what he was on about and he said he'd seen an advert on facebook for "uniquesolidwoodfurniturebystan"



Seems like he's changed his site name to "furniturebystan" on facebook. I'd be fascinated to see inside his new one-man "showroom" in Bracknell.


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## Sawdust=manglitter (9 Jan 2017)

Woodmatt":31ik1uts said:


> Great post thank you Custard.As I was reading through you list of places to buy I was waiting for you to tell us of the great little yard in West Wales but I was sadly disappointed, oh well more trips over the Seven Bridge by the sounds of it but again thanks.



Hi Woodmatt,

I live near Cross Hands and have tried a number of local sources for timber. There are various places you could try. I often visit the Timberman shop in Bronwydd, they are knowledgeable and helpful and they stock a variety of timber, oak, ash, cherry, sycamore, some walnut and many others. They arent the cheapest, but what they have is decent, and if you're after something specific they can try to get hold of it for you. And they are also great for a variety of turning blanks (if you also have that bug!).

Apart from that I recently visited a guy who lives in Upper Brynaman and he has a fair bit of chunky slabs of oak, ash and redwood and also has some yew...
https://www.gumtree.com/p/wood-timber/v ... 1204825271

And in terms of Andy T's suggestion, Wentwood Timber Centre is well worth a spin to see their showroom.

Also, i havent tried there myself, but you could also try Dickmans Sawmill which isnt far from you...
http://dickmans-timber.co.uk/

Again I havent tried there myself, but there's also Nottage Timber Merchants in Bridgend.
http://www.nottagetimber.co.uk/

And also Swansea Timber & Plywood stock various timbers...
https://www.swanseatimber.co.uk/


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## Woodmatt (9 Jan 2017)

Thanks AndyT I do know of the place you are suggesting and I do plan to visit shortly, unfortunately they will not deliver so I am limited to what I can get in my car,wish I'd kept my pickup.
Sawdust=Manglitter I do go to Timberman regularly myself but they never seem to have what I want when I want it.I know George Dickman very well and he is a lovely guy,his very disorganized yard is not 10mins from me he is great for oak but most other stuff,which he has lots of is always way out of reach for him on that day or he cannot find it and it often feel like you are imposing on him when you visit,more like a nuisance than a customer as for the others you mention they seem to charge a fortune for delivery,maybe I just need to get used to paying the price for living in the back of beyond rather than the south east as I did before where just about everything was on my doorstep.


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## MikeJhn (9 Jan 2017)

Get a trailer, most of my work is carried out in France, I don't know anyone who does not have a trailer, its essential to have one here.

Mike


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Jan 2017)

Try hanging on to them here - I had two nicked inside nine months, chains, hitch locks, wheel locks the lot. The police know who nicks them and also know it's fruitless chasing them.


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## MikeJhn (11 Jan 2017)

Scrowts like that do not like being filmed, get a surveillance camera, even a dummy will deter them as long as its not obviously one, you can get them with a battery powered LED, very convincing.

Mike


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## Nelsun (16 Feb 2017)

Furniture by Stan just popped up on my Facebook feed again going on about how high demand will be putting up his prices. Fair enough! So I posted a comment asking if the stuff was imported as the prices were so cheap...

Within 15 minutes it was deleted and I was blocked from posting anything further to their company. It was a pointless exercise I know!


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## Alexfn (16 Feb 2017)

I called him out on a cabinet he said it would take him 2 months to make. Same deleted and banned

He does seem to have cut back on publicity stating he makes the stuff himself though

I wonder where he is shipping it in from


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## Nelsun (20 Nov 2017)

Thought I'd post an update to what "Stan" (Vance Miller) has been up to when he's not flat out making his "future heirloom" pieces. He's been getting busted for scamming countless folk over a number of years but fled the country to Indonesia to avoid having his collar felt. Turns out he's been ripping people off for kitchens prior to turning his talents to ripping people of for furniture. He sounds like quite a character / control freak / delusional silly billy!

There's a Facebook group with the gory details here: https://www.facebook.com/Handmade-Furni ... 237751494/


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