# Paul Sellers and Old v New Tools



## GerryT (14 Aug 2021)

Recent post on Paul Seller’s blog in answer to a question by a subscriber.
The reply to the question results in Paul talking about the ”superiority” of his old Planes over the newer.
As he has been using his old Stanley planes over the 50 odd years of his career this somehow qualifies them ( he says) as being superior to newer models.
I did try to point out that while old tools may be superior, the fact that he used them for 50 years plus doesn’t make them superior for that reason .
The reverse could equally be true had he used the “newer “ tools over an extended period of time, which he confessed he doesn’t .
Without comparing the newer models with the old over the same term, his opinion that one is superior over another is without foundation.
I have tried to point out that his opinion in this instance is mere bias and not a true true instance of superiority of one over another.


He also makes mention of router planes, and that because he recommends them the prices have risen considerably but that the hike in price is ok as the tool is worth the money.
He then goes on to say that it can sometimes put them out of the reach of some woodworkers but that he has come up with one that can be made for a £10.
Heirloom quality too apparently.
So if as good as the real thing, why recommend the real thing and not recommend the 3 for £30 ?
Sounds like nonsense to me.

To be honest, I admire him for his skills and his teaching methods but his tedious repetition about 50 year plus and how prices of hand tool skyrocket every time he opens his mouth is becoming nauseous.

It’s the first time I’ve ever posted a reply on his forum but his incessant carping on just seems to get worse over time.


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## Rorschach (14 Aug 2021)

If enough people tell you that you are a god, you might just start to believe it.

He is just suffering from the condition we all do, being human. In most cases this doesn't matter because the vast majority of us are irrelevant for the most part and no one really listens to us, it only becomes a problem when you get famous and your opinion becomes worth something. I am sure there is an awful lot of what he says that is good sound advice, but there is always going to be some twaddle in there and you have spotted some of it.


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## Adam W. (14 Aug 2021)

Just ignore him and move on.


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## Jacob (14 Aug 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Just ignore him and move on.


Rorsach or Sellers?

I quite like Sellers style and general approach and tend to agree that some of the older tools are best. He does burble on but not too pretentiously. His design work is a bit cra.pp but at least he can be seen to be making things.
But you are free to ignore him and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it either way.
Can't blame him if prices go up on his recommendations he's not profiting by it, whereas Lie Neilsen, Veritas etc are also heavily promoted by various gurus, presumably sponsored in various ways. Pick your own guru - or take no notice of any of them!


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## Jameshow (14 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If enough people tell you that you are a god, you might just start to believe it.
> 
> He is just suffering from the condition we all do, being human. In most cases this doesn't matter because the vast majority of us are irrelevant for the most part and no one really listens to us, it only becomes a problem when you get famous and your opinion becomes worth something. I am sure there is an awful lot of what he says that is good sound advice, but there is always going to be some twaddle in there and you have spotted some of it.


Pride..... pure and simple and it's brother jealousy.... 

Cheers James


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## Doug B (14 Aug 2021)

Perhaps he’s just miffed that non of the modern tool manufacturers want to sponsor him


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## Jacob (14 Aug 2021)

Doug B said:


> Perhaps he’s just miffed that non of the modern tool manufacturers want to sponsor him


Sensible choice not to be sponsored, if he had a choice - it means he is his own man, right or wrong.


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## johnnyb (14 Aug 2021)

the odd thing is I agree with much of what I've heard him say. it's just I can't stand his personality. that really stops me having in depth knowledge of much he says tbh. Internet gurus are slightly cultist I reckon.


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## TheTiddles (14 Aug 2021)

If he was in the USAF 80 years ago, he’d be the one laying armouring over the wingtips of the aircraft.

Old tools being better than news ones comes up about once a week here, has done for the last decade or so, it’s survivorship bias coupled with an inability to account for inflation.

My old Stanley planes have new blades, and replaced handles, they don’t look perfect but they work fine. My LN tools are 80 years younger and I bet they will be in a much better condition when they are 100, because they were made better to start with, but they did cost somewhat more even accounting for inflation.

Delia Smith once caused a run on omelette pans, you can find them for free everywhere now.


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## thetyreman (14 Aug 2021)

he's not for everyone just like rob cosman is not for everyone, I don't agree with everything he says but I do respect him a lot, I come from the same place as him in stockport so it makes me proud that somebody of my background could achieve what he did, he's inspiring a lot of people to get into the craft who would not normally do it.


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

He's peddling an ideology. One where you spend a bunch of money on a class instead of tools. Everyone has their gimmick, that's just his. 

There aren't many guys who have a gimmick of turning out fine workers .


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Aug 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Delia Smith once caused a run on omelette pans, you can find them for free everywhere now.



A friend's wife had a cookware shop - he said they always had warnings in the trade magazines of forthcoming cookery shows and what they'd plug so the stock could be got in.


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## Rorschach (15 Aug 2021)

And demonstrated here, plenty of other human traits. 

And as usual on my posts, people reading what they want to read rather than what is actually said.


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## Lons (15 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A friend's wife had a cookware shop - he said they always had warnings in the trade magazines of forthcoming cookery shows and what they'd plug so the stock could be got in.


Common practice across all retail markets when part of the sales pitch was to sell in stock prior to advertising blocks on TV, magazines and other media.
When I was in the plastics industry I always got a heads up from local authorities before they blitzed the takeaways, Chinese and Indian restaurants etc. as there would be a huge demand for wall cladding and I had my sales people virtually following the inspectors around taking orders.


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## Lons (15 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> And demonstrated here, plenty of other human traits.
> 
> And as usual on my posts, people reading what they want to read rather than what is actually said.


Well you and I definitely don't see eye to eye but in this case I saw nothing wrong with your posts. It pains me to say I actually agreed with you.  
_Errr... Did I really write that?_


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## GerryT (15 Aug 2021)

He is pushing an ideology DW and you’re right Jacob he is his own man.
But it’s clear that being his own man he makes extreme claims that have no foundation in fact.
Like some other have said, he is a knowledgable and skilful man no doubt and I too, like I mentioned before respect him for that.

Sure, he’s only human as some point out, but is that an excuse for making claims without any substance to them and that have an influence way beyond a personal view ?
Is a Stanley Bailey No4 really “superior“ to a Lie Nielsen or Veritas No4 ?
Not in my book.
I use Records and Stanley’s in various guises and have a few Quangshengs and a single Lie Nielsen to boot.
I always thought the Records ”better” than the Stanley’s but that opinion is something that I can’t always put into words.
The Quangshengs IMHO are “better” than both Record and Stanley… at some things, and I can say why I think they’re are better or superior for particular tasks but not a blanket “they are superior” full stop.
Better build quality yes.
Paul Sellers by his own confession has not used any of his premium planes for any length of time yet claims they are inferior to the Stanley’s.

With some woodworking bloggers its clear that they are pushing a particular line in tools, but when you have someone who claims not to be doing so, which is the case with Paul Sellers, though he doesn’t push a particular brand or is not sponsored by a brand he pushes his own philosophy about tools and so is not as neutral as he likes to claim and often just plain daft.

As someone has pointed out, you don’t have to visit his blog or read his posts .
I agree, but I will do so again no doubt and he’ll rub me up again with some outlandish claim to uniqueness or that the Aldi chisels are better than the Lie Nielsen… they are though … aren’t they .
After all, like him, I’m only human.


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## gmercer_48083 (15 Aug 2021)

I personally, am glad to have someone like Paul Sellers doing what he does. He teaches by example the things he has learned with great detail about the things he has personally learned with great detail. He seems to want to pass on his knowledge, understanding and observations to as many people as possible. He recognized that hand tool woodworking was becoming a lost trait and that others could gain knowledge from what he knows. He has answered and proven to me that he is an expert... and does know what he talks about regarding hand tool woodworking. I for one will disregard those of you that knock his comments. When someone comes along that can accomplish what he has in his lifetime, and be a better mentor... I may follow them.


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## Blackswanwood (15 Aug 2021)

Paul Sellers is just another woodworker giving his opinion (which he describes as facts). We can all decide for ourselves whether we want to take his opinions as facts.


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## Jacob (15 Aug 2021)

GerryT said:


> He is pushing an ideology DW and you’re right Jacob he is his own man.
> But it’s clear that being his own man he makes extreme claims that have no foundation in fact.


Arguable perhaps but hardly an "extreme" claim that Stanley 4 is better than a Lie Neilsen! A lot cheaper for a start! I've never paid more than £15 or so


> .
> .....
> Is a Stanley Bailey No4 really “superior“ to a Lie Nielsen or Veritas No4 ?
> ....


Definitely better than the Veritas 4 which has no lever cap and only a norris style adjuster. "Retro" styles are all very well but the reason they became retro is that they were superseded by improved tools.
Definitely cheaper and lighter than the Lie Nielsen. No contest really, but don't let that stop you being a fashion victim!
PS I had a Clifton 4 once. Heavy, expensive, thick blade slow to sharpen, soft malleable steel body which scratched easily. Sold it.
Also had the Stanley SW 4 which had non of these faults and was very well made, except for being heavy and having retro adjusters - the same mistake as the Veritas design. They really missed a chance there by being followers of fashion


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## Rorschach (15 Aug 2021)

Lons said:


> Well you and I definitely don't see eye to eye but in this case I saw nothing wrong with your posts. It pains me to say I actually agreed with you.
> _Errr... Did I really write that?_



Cor blimey! Maybe we should go on a date after all


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## Droogs (15 Aug 2021)

Even local charities are cottoning on to the price hikes though. One near me has an almost solidly rusted Record #4 in totally unusable condition in the window for £35 and a dodgy operation Mathieson 6" sweep brace for £30. Both need complete strip and recondition before being in usable condition. They also had a half set of H&Rs sat in the blazing sun for 4 days getting rather warped before moving them despite being told about it twice. One of the planes started to look like a banana before they moved them. Idiots if they had moved them when first told I would have bought them a couple of days later when I could have returned with my card.


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## Rorschach (15 Aug 2021)

Talking of jealousy, someone picked up a veritas wonder dog for 50p at the car boot today, if only I had been 30 secs faster.


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## Droogs (15 Aug 2021)

or 200 pounds heavier lol


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## Rorschach (15 Aug 2021)

Droogs said:


> or 200 pounds heavier lol



I had someone literally buy something that was in my hand, he was convincing me it wouldn't fit me (it would have) and he took it from me to show me and then paid the bloke and walked off the cheeky sod. 
Ironically the item would have fit me (6'4) and the bloke that barely pushing 5ft!  
Still he saved me a quid, I didn't really need it, one of those bargains you buy for the sake of it, too many of those in the workshop and wardrobe already lol.


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## TRITON (15 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If enough people tell you that you are a god, you might just start to believe it.


Mirror, Mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest of them all ?.....


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## GerryT (15 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Arguable perhaps but hardly an "extreme" claim that Stanley 4 is better than a Lie Neilsen! A lot cheaper for a start! I've never paid more than £15 or soDefinitely better than the Veritas 4 which has no lever cap and only a norris style adjuster. "Retro" styles are all very well but the reason they became retro is that they were superseded by improved tools.
> Definitely cheaper and lighter than the Lie Nielsen. No contest really, but don't let that stop you being a fashion victim!
> PS I had a Clifton 4 once. Heavy, expensive, thick blade slow to sharpen, soft malleable steel body which scratched easily. Sold it.
> Also had the Stanley SW 4 which had non of these faults and was very well made, except for being heavy and having retro adjusters - the same mistake as the Veritas design. They really missed a chance there by being followers of fashion




Jacob

I don’t think I’d ever be classed as a follower of fashion be it tools or clothes 


I didn’t say that his claim that the Stanley is superior to a Lie Nielsen is extreme.
That comment was meant that in general that’s what he does…make extreme claims of either uniqueness or about one tool being superior to another.
Even your own comments vis a vis Stanley and Lie Nielsen are not ones which show that one plane is superior over the other.
Cheaper and lighter is not superior and neither is heavy and expensive .

The question should be couched in different terms.
Which is better for a particular job maybe ?
Or which do I as an individual prefer ?
Paul Sellers makes his own preferences into a contest about superior or inferior and that he is always right, instead of just saying thats what he prefers.
As much as I like him generally, he exhibits a “soft arrogance”. 
Nothing wrong in making claims to prefer one tool over another just be honest about and don’t make into an “either/or “ argument .

My initial thread post was written out of irritation and maybe it could have been worded differently but my point I think still stands.
I knew the post would irritate some and be answered sensibly by others which is fine as that’s what you get when you make a post that divides opinion.
You of all people will understand that if you recall your own sharpening posts .

You found the Clifton No4 blade difficult to sharpen…really ?
Maybe that’s because you didn’t use the right sharpening technique


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## Jacob (15 Aug 2021)

GerryT said:


> ...
> 
> You found the Clifton No4 blade difficult to sharpen…really ?
> Maybe that’s because you didn’t use the right sharpening technique


O1 steel and a bit thicker. Just a little longer to sharpen!
I think nearly all my Records and Stanleys have old laminated blades now, except one is new Japanese "smoothcut" laminated. They are the best without a doubt. Hope that is not an extreme statement!


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

I should've been more clear about selling an ideal. I didn't mean that as a positive thing. He's selling escapism and his message has lacked substance from the start, but he's obviously selling something people want (if I were going to choose to spend $700 on a sellers course or an LN plane and perhaps supplement with 4 good clean disston saws, I wouldn't be registering for the course).

The idea that Paul isn't "beholden to tool companies" is overpeddled - that's not how he makes his money. If we all got an accurate accounting (from what I gather) of what he did, it would look like "got a job at a museum, then went from there to teaching students - or perhaps both at once - almost 40 years ago and then saw the power of online media at some point"

I tried to find his portfolio by googling it:

Has anyone seen a portfolio of stuff paul has made by himself? When I googled that, I got this:




__





Working for yourself - Paul Sellers' Blog







paulsellers.com





This is really fantasy stuff. Full of "could" stuff, along with a comment at the bottom that once you're your "own boss, you can just extend deadlines further and further if it feels like pressure" and the comment that "I won't let anyone tell me I couldn't make a living making furniture". 

Well, Paul, you probably couldn't. The finest maker I ever met charged a shop rate of about $50 an hour to do exceedingly fine work that almost nobody else could do. He didn't make furniture. Anyone I can think of who made more became a "company owner", which isn't nearly as pleasant as working by yourself. 

This kind of thing is a lot like the investment guru who gives seminars and talks (paul's page says he'll come for a fee and give talks, i'm sure he's already got it all worked out in terms of puffing up a group), and who tells you just how much success you could have if you keep taking their classes and use their strategy. The only thing missing is the fact that they're not employing the strategy, they're seeking out other people to do it. I guess they're all altruistic. The reality is they're definitely not going to coach you about how they really make money - Paul doesn't teach you how he makes his living because it wouldn't be great for pitching how he makes his living (finding beginners), and you might do it. 

Here's what I see - first, paul learned as a Joiner (not a cabinetmaker). Then, he learned that teaching people is preferable. Inevitably (my opinion), you'll find people teaching things when they tire of the making, not because they just have the "gift to teach, but are a world class maker, and it's such a tough decision". And not sure if he does in person classes at this point, but the magic of the internet probably makes selling memberships on sites more profitable and easier to manage than coordinating in person classes (e.g., dealing with people who have a relative who gets sick and want a refund, weather issues, ...ahem...covid restrictions). Giving talks is probably pretty profitable, too, if you can be booked to give a talk that you've already given other times. 

long story short, if you want to know what's what with tools, find someone who does really fine work, and see what they think. Most of them will have a tool obsession and some won't, but not many will have strong opinions on what you must have because they'll be conveying that you need to have something that you want to make finely, and then the fact that you have to do all of the bits of it finely - not just what feels good. 

Paul would have less trouble figuring out how to sharpen a clifton blade easily than he would providing a list of career woodworkers that he's taught.


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## Lons (15 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Cor blimey! Maybe we should go on a date after all


The second word to that is OFF


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## Rorschach (15 Aug 2021)

Lons said:


> The second word to that is OFF



First word "we're"


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## Lons (15 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> First word "we're"


Nearly there, it is 4 letters and not polite to use in front of young children.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Aug 2021)

GerryT said:


> Jacob
> You found the Clifton No4 blade difficult to sharpen…really ?
> Maybe that’s because you didn’t use the right sharpening technique



Yes. It's because unlike 99% of people he'd rather waste time regularly with an oilstone than take two minutes occasionally on a grindstone, then tells others it's a better way of doing it.
Ftfy.


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## 6x4 (15 Aug 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> If he was in the USAF 80 years ago, he’d be the one laying armouring over the wingtips of the aircraft.
> 
> Old tools being better than news ones comes up about once a week here, has done for the last decade or so, it’s survivorship bias coupled with an inability to account for inflation.
> 
> ...


I’m looking forward to the tsunami of quality 2nd hand router planes then . I could do with another ( I have a nice modern veritas one)


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Yes. It's because unlike 99% of people he'd rather waste time regularly with an oilstone than take two minutes occasionally on a grindstone, then tells others it's a better way of doing it.
> Ftfy.



Even a crystolon stone will grind those blades reasonably well - even though the method is subpar (rounding everything over) unless the primary is drawn out very long (which itself isn't very pleasant by hand). 

The eye isn't on the ball of making nice things though with any of this, but paul doesn't need people (nor does jacob) to have their eye on that ball - it distracts from the platitudes. 

The platitudes allow for suspension in a state of "problem identification" without progressing to problem solving. Sharpening and flattening clifton's blades isn't difficult. It may be if one pretends that only the method used for other blades in other proportions can ever work in the first place.


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

Here's an interesting comparison. Take a look at Lonnie Bird's student gallery vs. Paul's. 









Furniture Gallery – Woodworking Students - Lonnie Bird


Woodworking Students at Lonnie Bird's Woodworking School excel! Great craftsmanship!




www.lonniebird.com





When I mentioned getting an LN 62 and finding it pleasant, but not very productive vs. a plane with a cap iron (again, an issue only for someone doing all or most of their work with planes), someone pointed me to Lonnie as an instructor who required purchase of an LN 62 at the time. 

Why? Because he's probably not interested in telling people how to set up old planes. 

I'm a great fan of George Wilson (not a secret) and talk to him often. It's uncommon for George to ever talk about good tools one vs. another or good sharpening methods, one vs. another. George can tell you at length what he believes makes for good voicing in a guitar or violin, he can tell you what makes a good harpsichord, he can tell you what design should be in jewelry dies, what the key issues are in restoring a lathe, etc. 

I was talking to him last night as he's now aware that I like making chisels. I said something about often being requested to make london pattern handles because they're interesting visually (they are, they're lovely looking in boxwood), but any better functionally and perhaps slightly less comfortable than tapered and turned handles. He agreed. When I said they're a little bit of a pain to make with limited tooling because you have to check more bits on them (they must be symmetrical on the facets with the blank placed dead centered in a lathe, he flatly said "oh, I use a mill and a metal lathe to make them" and described some kind of self setting bit on his lathe that will take the chunk that comes off the mill and place it dead center on the lathe. 

Should I convince him that making them by hand with old tools is better? I'll bet he could make 4 in the time it takes me to make one, and more importantly, is eye for design would make his look better than mine, too, even if they were equally finished.


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## Jacob (15 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Yes. It's because unlike 99% of people he'd rather waste time regularly with an oilstone than take two minutes occasionally on a grindstone, then tells others it's a better way of doing it.
> Ftfy.


Seems to worry you Phil.
I find it more pleasant, quieter, easier and quicker not to bother with power grindstone - unless the thing is really bad and needs reshaping in which case I'd use the 12" disc sander on my lathe. It's much better than a Pro edge which I had briefly and sold on.
Oil stones: If a burr doesn't come up quickly I might go down a grit or two. But a little and often usually means just using the two finest, or one if its a narrow chisel.
I admit it's taken some time to get a simple routine sorted.
The biggest handicap to speed is the honing jig and I reckon it causes most of the problems. I haven't touched one in 15 years or so but didn't use them much anyway.
I bought a used Norton "0" combi some time back which was untouched on the fine side but distinctly hollowed on the coarse. Who would do that? Found the answer when I needed to sharpen my little joiner's axe - freehand again, energetic but very quick and neat.
The main thing about freehand is putting a lot of energy into it - doing it fast over the whole surface of the stone.
I recently discovered an interesting detail - if I do a figure of 8 (well just a spiral squiggle up and down) it tends to push the oil and swarf off the sides of the stone. It also pushes off those annoying bits of wire edge or sawdust which float about up and down the stone and are difficult to shift. Should have noticed this 50 years ago!
PS and the hollow in the coarse stone is ideal for thick old woodies - grind like an axe then hone just the edge on a finer stone, all
PPS just noticed how much some people find Paul Sellers annoying - he must be doing something right!


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## John Brown (15 Aug 2021)

Weird.
If you don't like the man, don't watch him.
I can't stand Rob Cosman. So I don't watch him.


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## thetyreman (15 Aug 2021)

John Brown said:


> I can't stand Rob Cosman. So I don't watch him.



same


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Seems to worry you Phil.



Not at all, I couldn't give a jot how people choose to waste their time. It does irritate when they tell others it's the only/best way to do something, though.


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

John Brown said:


> Weird.
> If you don't like the man, don't watch him.
> I can't stand Rob Cosman. So I don't watch him.



You probably don't have to watch Cosman to be reminded of him. You also don't have to watch Sellers to be reminded of his claims. 

I'd bet student outcomes from the two of them are probably similar, and Bird's student pool is smaller (and probably wealthier). 

Most of us on this thread wouldn't be apprised of paul's claims about old planes, and most of the hackles are raised about cosman when someone (innocently) comes along asking for opinions about his methods or where to get the wares. 

I see both guys as the same (both Cosman and Sellers). Just like politics, any ardent fan of either will be offended by that comment.


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## Jacob (15 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Not at all, I couldn't give a jot how people choose to waste their time. It does irritate when they they others it's the only/best way to do something, though.


I think you are irritated because someone is not doing it your preferred way.


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## Selwyn (15 Aug 2021)

The good thing about Sellers is that at least he's not encouraging people to spend cash when other tools are "good enough". 

I don't get the reverence though


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## Jameshow (15 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> I should've been more clear about selling an ideal. I didn't mean that as a positive thing. He's selling escapism and his message has lacked substance from the start, but he's obviously selling something people want (if I were going to choose to spend $700 on a sellers course or an LN plane and perhaps supplement with 4 good clean disston saws, I wouldn't be registering for the course).
> 
> The idea that Paul isn't "beholden to tool companies" is overpeddled - that's not how he makes his money. If we all got an accurate accounting (from what I gather) of what he did, it would look like "got a job at a museum, then went from there to teaching students - or perhaps both at once - almost 40 years ago and then saw the power of online media at some point"
> 
> ...



I do find Paul enigmatic tbh. 

This down to earth simple guy teaching basic woodworkers to all and sundry - great. 

Then you find a host of production staff behind the camera to give the BBC a run for thier money! 

Which is paid for by the berlin wall of all pay walls so that beyond a basic dovetail you gotta pay!!! 

Which is the antithesis of his screen persona.

Cheers James


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## Selwyn (15 Aug 2021)

Jameshow said:


> I do find Paul enigmatic tbh.
> 
> This down to earth simple guy teaching basic woodworkers to all and sundry - great.
> 
> ...



He does produce a fair chunk of free stuff


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## TheTiddles (15 Aug 2021)

There’s always been the “this is the best” brigade around, on here, in magazines, on YouTube etc… Amusingly they’ve often never tried another way, or follow up a profession about which tool is superior by asking a really basic question on how to use the one they’ve just purchased (so…. how come you were so sure on your previous assertion?).

After a few posts they’re pretty obvious to anyone with a slight degree of critical thinking, and to those that haven’t there’s nothing more that can be done, you can’t educate someone out of a position they weren’t educated into.

Ultimately, look at what they make, their professed methods are presumably what they used. If you like their work, their methods may be worth adopting if you want to make the same.

It may be my confirmation bias, but seems like some of the most insistent people regarding methods and tools, don’t have a lot of work to demonstrate their brilliance.


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## rob1693 (15 Aug 2021)

I can't say I like or agree with a lot of Paul's ramblings but as a teacher of the basics of woodworking layout of joints and tuning up old tools you can't go far wrong I know he's improved my woodworking by a large degree


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

Selwyn said:


> He does produce a fair chunk of free stuff



Imagine how much it would cost to advertise to draw viewers in vs. "producing free stuff".


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

rob1693 said:


> I can't say I like or agree with a lot of Paul's ramblings but as a teacher of the basics of woodworking layout of joints and tuning up old tools you can't go far wrong I know he's improved my woodworking by a large degree



This is something most instructors would do. I guess in the days of the internet, you can't guarantee that all would, but it's basic woodworking. I think of folks learn from anyone and they get to the point that they're ready to drill down on making something good (or not of their choice), then that's fine. 

The war between the instructors of the beginners is a little strange, though.


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## JobandKnock (15 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> ...along with a comment at the bottom that once you're your "own boss, you can just extend deadlines further and further if it feels like pressure...


Now that's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from someone who'd never been self employed. Extend deadlines that way and you end up with dissatisfied customers, cancelled orders and lost revenue. Does he actually teach anything about running a business on his courses? Of course not, because that would mean admitting that it is damned hard work. Apologies to anyone who was/is in the profession (my wife was), but what was it Shaw said about teaching?



D_W said:


> Here's what I see - first, paul learned as a Joiner (not a cabinetmaker).


I don't know where you are in the world (I suspect the USA) but certainly when Paul came into the trade (late 1960s?) better firms were still running a 3 to 4 year apprenticeship and many expected you to train as a carpenter and joiner. In shopfitting and barfitting firms (my own background) you were taught many cabinetmaking skills such as veneering and finishing (staining and spraying mainly). We were taught to do a lot with machinery as well as by hand, but I was never good enough to be passed over to our resident stair joiner, who could carve handrail wreath damned nigh perfectly. The biggest difference, thougj, is that as joiners we learned nothing about design, aesthetics or the history of furniture because we often work to an architect's drawings. So in technical terms I wouldn't knock him that hard - the man does seem to know a lot about technique


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## D_W (15 Aug 2021)

I'm sure it was rigorous. It's the cabinetmaker or furniture maker design sense that's so valuable, though.id guess by the 1960s, to find someone who really worked efficiency with mostly hand tools, you'd need to find someone fairly old.

There are actually custom joiners in the us still, but not many, and it tends to be the very wealthy or engineers who hire them. The work done by the local fellow is hell for tight, but some of the details are a little unusual or bland.


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## JobandKnock (15 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> The biggest handicap to speed is the honing jig and I reckon it causes most of the problems. I haven't touched one in 15 years or so but didn't use them much anyway.


In that case I must be some sort of apostate (or is it heretic?). Out on the job I sharpen in a figure 8 on a couple of diamond plates with oil (because water l0eft on steel = rust) and diamond plates can't go hollow. Little and often works better for me.

A figure 8 I can more or less do in my sleep and it is the best way know to keep your bevels reasonably flat (mine aren't perfect by any means), but nicked edges and very blunt tools always come home and are ground out on a machine, at which point I take the trouble to flatten the bevels as well.



Jacob said:


> I recently discovered an interesting detail - if I do a figure of 8 (well just a spiral squiggle up and down) it tends to push the oil and swarf off the sides of the stone. It also pushes off those annoying bits of wire edge or sawdust which float about up and down the stone and are difficult to shift. Should have noticed this 50 years ago!


You said it! Why did it take you so long, though?


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## danst96 (16 Aug 2021)

It's funny, I see so much about Paul and also Rob cosman but I pay little attention to either. Both preach a hard-line in terms of tools, brands and "what is best".

There's many woodworking bloggers and YouTubers out there which take a much more rounded view which I prefer to follow. End of the day, I think many of us here buy tools based on our own experiences, beliefs and brand preferences over what some random guy who may or may not have affiliate links will suggest.


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## pe2dave (16 Aug 2021)

"What is best" surely is "in my judgement / experience", no matter who says it?


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## Jacob (16 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> ....
> 
> You said it! Why did it take you so long, though?


Dunno, have been doing it for years but just hadn't given it a thought until I suddenly realised it!


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## Doug B (16 Aug 2021)

pe2dave said:


> "What is best" surely is "in my judgement / experience", no matter who says it?


Spot on Dave anyone who states there opinions as facts in my book aren’t worth watching. It amazes me how easily lead some folks are hanging on every word of the latest guru & defending them to the hilt should anyone question them & I’m not just talking Sellers.
They are all out there to make money & will say anything to increase profit regardless of whether that contradicts what they’ve previously said.

Over the years I’ve seen several woodworking “celebrities“ who push hand tool only woodwork as it’s a very fashionable money maker only to find they own machinery but just don’t mention it.


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## D_W (16 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Now that's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from someone who'd never been self employed. Extend deadlines that way and you end up with dissatisfied customers, cancelled orders and lost revenue. Does he actually teach anything about running a business on his courses? Of course not, because that would mean admitting that it is damned hard work. Apologies to anyone who was/is in the profession (my wife was), but what was it Shaw said about teaching?



We're familiar with the other parts - busting onto the scene with perfumey media that didn't quite make sense given the background gimmick. Pushing the "i'm the real woodworker, not the guy who sells you tools, and if you follow me, you will be happy and live in a mushroom hut employing yourself in a craft economy" thing. 

But, yeah, that flippant oversimplification of business reality was obnoxious. Especially if anyone believes it.


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## Rorschach (16 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Now that's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from someone who'd never been self employed. Extend deadlines that way and you end up with dissatisfied customers, cancelled orders and lost revenue. Does he actually teach anything about running a business on his courses? Of course not, because that would mean admitting that it is damned hard work. Apologies to anyone who was/is in the profession (my wife was), but what was it Shaw said about teaching?



Definitely never had to deal with real customer if that is their attitude!


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## pidgeonpost (16 Aug 2021)

Selwyn said:


> The good thing about Sellers is that at least he's not encouraging people to spend cash when other tools are "good enough".
> 
> I don't get the reverence though


As an amateur sawdust maker I've picked up a few useful tips from Sellers, and certainly my hand-cut dovetails (which I rarely get to cut) have improved since watching a few of his vids. But I too don't get the sycophantic comments about him being some sort of god or genius. I take the good bits and (try to) ignore the stuff that gets up my pipe - like whether to lie your plane on the sole or the side. And no, I'm not seeking to start that hare running again!


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## JobandKnock (16 Aug 2021)

Be different - make a stand for it so you can park it upside down - Ozzie fashion...


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## Jacob (16 Aug 2021)

I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.


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## D_W (16 Aug 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> As an amateur sawdust maker I've picked up a few useful tips from Sellers, and certainly my hand-cut dovetails (which I rarely get to cut) have improved since watching a few of his vids. But I too don't get the sycophantic comments about him being some sort of god or genius. I take the good bits and (try to) ignore the stuff that gets up my pipe - like whether to lie your plane on the sole or the side. And no, I'm not seeking to start that hare running again!



I've kind of wondered in the long term how well each woodworker would do if they saw what they were supposed to do and then spent no more time watching a particular joint (so, you get one good video of dovetails and then thereafter force yourself to identify one aesthetic problem each time you cut a joint or set of joints and solve it). 

I'm thinking that the average person solving their issues with dovetail joints will be further ahead if they solve them than if they continue to look for more tips. We all need more instruction on design and standards than we do on how to hold a saw. 

I don't know if this is coming across clearly as i'm in my "mid-afternoon slows" after doing technical work since 7am (it's 2PM here), but it occurs to me that what got me good at joints (good enough that I can make them to any reasonable standard) was solving problems with making them. And I'd bet a lot of people credit a given teacher for showing them how to do something that they would've learned to do on their own. 

One of the hardest pills for a beginner (who is already often good at a profession and has to learn what it's like to suck at something for a while again) to swallow is what they're missing is desire and repetition in combination. The desire is usually to get a good result (or have someone promise it) without putting in the repetition. There's usually a bridge out somewhere on that road.


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## Daniel2 (16 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.



I thought that planes should always point to Sheffield.


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## Rorschach (16 Aug 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I thought that planes should always point to Sheffield.



I like mine to point towards the runway.


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## AJB Temple (16 Aug 2021)

Personally I think Rob Cosman has an excellent web site resource for people wishing to learn. Less knowledgeable about Paul Sellers, but he seems OK to me. Everyone has preferences, and intelligent viewers of their channels are unlikely to mistake their opinions for indisputable facts. 

Not sure what the purpose is of rubbishing other people's website content on this forum. No one forces us to watch / attend courses / follow their methods. As adults we choose and use tools however we want.


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## JobandKnock (16 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.


Do you have an arrow painted on the workshop floor like the Welsh Tal-y-ban?


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## Jacob (16 Aug 2021)

John Brown said:


> Weird.
> If you don't like the man, don't watch him.
> I can't stand Rob Cosman. So I don't watch him.


It's the way he says "Hi I'm Rob Cosman and welcome to my shaaap"


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## John Brown (16 Aug 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> Personally I think Rob Cosman has an excellent web site resource for people wishing to learn. Less knowledgeable about Paul Sellers, but he seems OK to me. Everyone has preferences, and intelligent viewers of their channels are unlikely to mistake their opinions for indisputable facts.
> 
> Not sure what the purpose is of rubbishing other people's website content on this forum. No one forces us to watch / attend courses / follow their methods. As adults we choose and use tools however we want.


I'm not rubbishing his(Rob Conman's) content, I just find him irritating.


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## John Brown (16 Aug 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm not rubbishing his(Rob Conman's) content, I just find him irritating.


Sometimes autocomplete/predictive text is spot on.
I think I'm going to take a laissez-faire attitude to such things from now on...


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## JSW (16 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's the way he says "Hi I'm Rob Cosman and welcome to my shaaap"


Followed closely by stumpynubs and his infernal "Wait! Don't go yet!!"

Sellers I can't stand, I know it's just his way and all that, but I find him to be really condescending and quite arrogant.

I do like Cosman though, found him really annoying to begin with, but then slowly warmed to him. his heart appears to be in the right place also with his Purple Heart Project. His live feeds are interesting for the interaction of the team supporting him, camera crew, helpers etc, who all seem to be rather good at keeping him in check, no rampant ego let loose, he's kept under control in a nicely discreet way.


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## mikej460 (16 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> if I do a figure of 8 (well just a spiral squiggle up and down) it tends to push the oil and swarf off the sides of the stone. It also pushes off those annoying bits of wire edge or sawdust which float about up and down the stone and are difficult to shift. Should have noticed this 50 years ago!


I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig


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## D_W (16 Aug 2021)

JSW said:


> Followed closely by stumpynubs and his infernal "Wait! Don't go yet!!"



I actually kind of like cosman. I don't have much of anything to learn from him, but I've let loose in comments on some of his claims a couple of times and each time I've been kind of brisk, he's responded with courtesy. He wouldn't have to. I'd be glad to meet him in person - and while he does promote his business, there's something a little more genuine to him than there is to paul. I could be wrong - we all could, and pretty much all the time. 

But I wouldn't rate stumpy as worthy of cleaning paul or rob's underwear, let alone in a class with them. Ultimately, at least paul and rob do actually teach woodworking rather than constantly farming off of people by trying to send them through amazon links.


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## D_W (16 Aug 2021)

mikej460 said:


> I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig



I see a marketing opportunity. a honing jig with a giant 52100 bearing. 

( I generally use slow and heavy or short strokes when honing something and needing to remove material -fast long strokes up and down a stone often lead to swarf buildup and tool skating. A whole gaggle of stones also likes the move of short strokes or short circles where you keep the lubricant ahead of or behind the circles or short strokes so that it's not constantly cushioning the tools, but it's available if you need to pull some into the stroke pattern....

If one compares things while working as opposed to just repeating a task, it's often possible to find things like this to manipulate - there's a poster on the US forum who has an interesting term for this kind of stuff - craftsman's subtlety, but it's a blank term that covers all of the little bits and bobs that a craftsman will learn by feel and that aren't easy to communicate. 

His example is wonderful - imagine describing how you walk with two legs and feet if you were talking to someone who had never used either before. Describing the bend of the foot, the toes, upper body, etc. Then consider how we describe it - putting one foot in front of the other. It's not necessary to do things like this (the minutiae) with sharpening, but sometimes it's more stimulating to experiment because it gets you to the next interesting thing.


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## JobandKnock (16 Aug 2021)

mikej460 said:


> I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig


Yes, but I agree with Jacob that a honing jig often isn't necessary and with a honing jig, whilst good on chisels is often less good on plane irons (where you really don't want sharp corners most of the time) and many jigs can't deal with cambered blades, either.


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## DrDarren (17 Aug 2021)

pe2dave said:


> "What is best" surely is "in my judgement / experience", no matter who says it?


I’m an amateur wood wrangler and professional wordsmith (educational philosophy). You can decide on ‘best’ if you can decide on your criteria for best. For example your best pilot might be someone who can fly and navigate a plane full of passengers from a to b in a smooth, fuel-efficient and safe manner without alienating their staff by being a knob. Four criteria there. You may need less or more criteria to refine but you can more or less agree that pilot Jess is better than pilot Pat because she used less fuel on average than Pat. Often though, and especially where aesthetics meets technique or where we cannot define our terms or agree on standards of evidence e.g. what do we mean by ‘god’then we cannot agree criteria and therefore cannot arrive at a reasonably object judgement. If you look back at the thread there are competing criteria. Knowing whether we are discussing the criteria by which we judge or a judgement itself (often with unspoken criteria) can be helpful. I started off liking Paul Sellars as he helped me understand principles of accurate joint construction e.g. knife walls. I visit him rarely now because his text is poorly constructed and rambling and his spiritual musings are not relevant nor critically referenced to be meaningful to me.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2021)

mikej460 said:


> I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig


In The Village Carpenter it is mentioned that the stone should be narrower than the blade. If you then skew the blade slightly to get as much of it on the stone as possible this would achieve the same thing, pushing swarf and dirt off the sides. It also keeps the stone flat from side to side - end to end doesn't matter too much.


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

mikej460 said:


> I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig


Another good reason for not using a honing jig.


Phil Pascoe said:


> In The Village Carpenter it is mentioned that the stone should be narrower than the blade. If you then skew the blade slightly to get as much of on the stone as possible this would achieve the same thing, pushing swarf and dirt off the sides. It also keeps the stone flat from side to side - end to end doesn't matter too much.


Well yes exactly. I've been doing the fig of 8 for years but the way it helps clean the stone I only recently twigged, as an irritating but of sawdust, wire edge whatever it was, suddenly disappeared off the edge.
n. b. "8" has nothing to do with it and can cause confusion if you over-think it - basically you just move the tool round and round and up and down the stone as you would if wax polishing a table top. More spiral than anything, but easy and obvious.


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## ecokestove (17 Aug 2021)

One thing about buying new is that you are helping to give someone a job.

I find Paul's free videos useful, but his blog is often an impenetrable ramble.


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## Daniel2 (17 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> In The Village Carpenter it is mentioned that the stone should be narrower than the blade. If you then skew the blade slightly to get as much of on the stone as possible this would achieve the same thing, pushing swarf and dirt off the sides. It also keeps the stone flat from side to side - end to end doesn't matter too much.



I'm actually reading The Village Carpenter at the moment.
It's a wonderful book.


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

ecokestove said:


> One thing about buying new is that you are helping to give someone a job.


Buying old and help save the planet! Recycling is the future and keep another set of people in jobs, servicing, sharpening, repairing, buying/selling etc


> I find Paul's free videos useful, but his blog is often an impenetrable ramble.


I don't often read him at length but checked out his blog here How does your workshop grow - Paul Sellers' Blog a bit long but OK I thought, thoughtful about the subject he likes, opinionated but not overly self important. He doesn't overdo the "correct" way but just rambles on harmlessly and emphasises that it's his "personal' view.
He's a bit special really!


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## Gary_S (17 Aug 2021)

It amazes me that there are people posting here about other people who make content and shock and horror make money from doing so who appear to have some experience in working with wood and forget that woodwork is not a science. Often, right and wrong is subjective. What suits one person in the way they hone, sharpen or saw, may not suit another. Either way, the wood does't care, the joint will fit well enough most of the time. Imprecision and minor imperfections and all.

When PS, RC et al expound on a subject, they are giving an opinion. Many on here have said as much. Why act like a bunch of armchair contract lawyers and look for phrases that seem to make someone look bad, appear arrogant, a bit of a know it all. You know they don't know it all but you also know that they are doing something positive, not sitting harping on fora.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I'm actually reading The Village Carpenter at the moment.
> It's a wonderful book.


When you've finished, get hold of The Wheelwright's Shop by George Sturt.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2021)

Gary_S said:


> Often, right and wrong is subjective. What suits one person in the way they hone, sharpen or saw, may not suit another.



From about twelve years old I set my planes by touch, not sight. My woodwork master if he saw me would whip the plane of my hands, sight it and hand it back. After doing this half a dozen times and finding he didn't need to adjust it he said I wasn't doing it properly, but it made no difference - the result was the same. Fifty five years later I still set them by feel, but I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they were wrong.


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## ecokestove (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Buying old and help save the planet! Recycling is the future and keep another set of people in jobs, servicing, sharpening, repairing, buying/selling etc



When I buy a used plane from eBay I may well be recycling, but I'm not helping employment.


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## Adam W. (17 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> From about twelve years old I set my planes by touch, not sight. My woodwork master if he saw me would whip the plane of my hands, sight it and hand it back. After doing this half a dozen times and finding he didn't need to adjust it he said I wasn't doing it properly, but it made no difference - the result was the same. Fifty five years later I still set them by feel, but I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they were wrong.




But, but....people telling other people they're wrong makes interesting threads.


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

ecokestove said:


> When I buy a used plane from eBay I may well be recycling, but I'm not helping employment.


I wouldn't be surprised to find that the lifetime servicing of an old whatever would involve more work than making a new one. I expect someone has worked it out somewhere!


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> From about twelve years old I set my planes by touch, not sight. My woodwork master if he saw me would whip the plane of my hands, sight it and hand it back. After doing this half a dozen times and finding he didn't need to adjust it he said I wasn't doing it properly, but it made no difference - the result was the same. Fifty five years later I still set them by feel, but I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they were wrong.


Er - you keep telling me I'm wrong!


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2021)

Adam W. said:


> But, but....people telling other people they're wrong makes interesting threads.


Maybe it would if if it weren't the same people doing it all the time.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Er - you keep telling me I'm wrong!


I don't tell you you're wrong, I object to you telling other people they are - like when you say how dreadful water stones are, then admit to never having used one.


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I don't tell you you're wrong, I object to you telling other people they are - like when you say how dreadful water stones are, then admit to never having used one.


I was going by what everybody else says. Must be them thats wrong then - don't blame me!


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## pidgeonpost (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.


Don't you know that wrecks 'em?


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## Tony Zaffuto (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Another good reason for not using a honing jig.
> 
> Well yes exactly. I've been doing the fig of 8 for years but the way it helps clean the stone I only recently twigged, as an irritating but of sawdust, wire edge whatever it was, suddenly disappeared off the edge.
> n. b. "8" has nothing to do with it and can cause confusion if you over-think it - basically you just move the tool round and round and up and down the stone as you would if wax polishing a table top. More spiral than anything, but easy and obvious.



Jacob wrote some of the wisest words regarding woodworking, that being "over-think-it".

In the US, we have a cottage industry of instructors, be it in person classes, blogs/vlogs, magazines/books or what have you. All compete for our attention, all subscribing to what is old is now new. Listening/reading their qualifications is humorous, with some mere hobbyists with a year or three under their belt. In the end, it is the fans that make most of these into what they proclaim.

Case in point, is Dave Weaver's friend, George Wilson. George is way beyond a superb craftsmen, and if any here have viewed any Colonial Williamsburg videos, or some of Roy Underhill's shows, you have probably seen some of his work. I would love to apprentice with George and the various forums he used to frequent should have had him on the highest pedestal, but they didn't. Why? Well, George can be a bit prickly, mainly due to health issues and age.


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## Droogs (17 Aug 2021)

That's different, everyone keeps telling you you're wrong @Jacob. It's a national obsession.


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## pidgeonpost (17 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> I've kind of wondered in the long term how well each woodworker would do if they saw what they were supposed to do and then spent no more time watching a particular joint (so, you get one good video of dovetails and then thereafter force yourself to identify one aesthetic problem each time you cut a joint or set of joints and solve it).
> 
> I'm thinking that the average person solving their issues with dovetail joints will be further ahead if they solve them than if they continue to look for more tips. We all need more instruction on design and standards than we do on how to hold a saw.
> 
> ...


I do take your points, but individual circumstances can dictate the approach. 
As a hobbyist with a large garden and other interests, my woodworking tends to be concentrated in the winter months. This means my techniques can get a bit rusty after 6 months off the tools. Previously I'd have refreshed my memory by looking at a textbook, but videos can be very handy. 
Also, I seem to be hurtling towards my mid-70's at an uncomfortable speed. This makes me hesitant to stock up on timber I may never use, so I increasingly try to use the stuff I've got, which isn't a lot, and try to avoid wastage. 
Couple together my rustiness and the need cut as good a joint as I can get in the last bit of timber of that type, or size, or matching grain etc. and that's where a video refresher sometimes comes in handy. 
I'm deeply envious of those who don't need refreshers but I guess they've put in the hours so their expertise is hard earned and we'll deserved.


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## D_W (17 Aug 2021)

I agree on different strokes (more or less, people learn and retain knowledge differently). That's why I "kind of" soft peddled that with "kind of wondered". 

I didn't get good at anything until I stepped away from the idea of individual techniques and learned to mark and work to a mark and then assess individual problems, but a more conscientious person (who is better at learning from others) may be able to work differently and have no issues. It's agonizing for me to do as you mention with long gaps unless the method that I come up with is my own by feel. 

I work with people (some are attorneys) who can just remember random rubbish in order forever, at least seemingly, and access it and review things and call you out in a second, so I've learned a fair amount between creative and conscientious. I'm not very conscientious - solving a problem is natural. Using someone else's methods can be confusing if they're too rigid and complex.


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## D_W (17 Aug 2021)

Gary_S said:


> You know they don't know it all but you also know that they are doing something positive, not sitting harping on fora.



Sometimes people share information on forums without expecting anything in return.


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## JobandKnock (17 Aug 2021)

ecokestove said:


> When I buy a used plane from eBay I may well be recycling, but I'm not helping employment.


In that case buy a new blade from Ray Iles. Best of both worlds!


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## JobandKnock (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Er - you keep telling me I'm wrong!


Maybe that's because you are. I know I'm wrong most of the time because my missus tells me I am!


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## D_W (17 Aug 2021)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> Jacob wrote some of the wisest words regarding woodworking, that being "over-think-it".
> 
> In the US, we have a cottage industry of instructors, be it in person classes, blogs/vlogs, magazines/books or what have you. All compete for our attention, all subscribing to what is old is now new. Listening/reading their qualifications is humorous, with some mere hobbyists with a year or three under their belt. In the end, it is the fans that make most of these into what they proclaim.
> 
> Case in point, is Dave Weaver's friend, George Wilson. George is way beyond a superb craftsmen, and if any here have viewed any Colonial Williamsburg videos, or some of Roy Underhill's shows, you have probably seen some of his work. I would love to apprentice with George and the various forums he used to frequent should have had him on the highest pedestal, but they didn't. Why? Well, George can be a bit prickly, mainly due to health issues and age.



Peoples' opinion of george suffered some due to the fact that he was accessible and his thoughts were firm (principle for its own sake rather than bending it to please people). 

I've spent quite a lot of time talking to him, and he's certain of his ability (because little of it isn't backed by some kind of research), but he never wields it for no reason. Pleasantly refreshing to be able to get advice or discuss something without having to guess if it's good advice. 

He also has a great ability to say "I don't know" or "I never looked at that" instead of offering an unqualified opinion.


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## Tony Zaffuto (17 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> Peoples' opinion of george suffered some due to the fact that he was accessible and his thoughts were firm (principle for its own sake rather than bending it to please people).
> 
> I've spent quite a lot of time talking to him, and he's certain of his ability (because little of it isn't backed by some kind of research), but he never wields it for no reason. Pleasantly refreshing to be able to get advice or discuss something without having to guess if it's good advice.
> 
> He also has a great ability to say "I don't know" or "I never looked at that" instead of offering an unqualified opinion.



At least a decade ago he and exchanged emails and, IIRC, I sent him some powdered metal for he and his wife to play with in their jewelry making.

In the states, we got way too many self proclaimed experts, confusing simple tasks.


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## D_W (17 Aug 2021)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> At least a decade ago he and exchanged emails and, IIRC, I sent him some powdered metal for he and his wife to play with in their jewelry making.
> 
> In the states, we got way too many self proclaimed experts, confusing simple tasks.



The only thing I've ever heard him voice displeasure about is having someone tell him how badly they need his advice, wringing great amounts out of him - especially in writing (he hates to type or text -not his generation) - and then ignoring it. He's not a fan of that. 

There were a couple of trolls spreading falsehoods about whether or not he ever made anything, but that's pretty easy to dismiss when you're accomplished. 

The separate issue of how do you get information that's useful to people even who are just starting out across when the person that it would originate from is so obsessed with actually making things both during the day and on the evenings and weekends? There's no easy answer to that question - george turned 80 this year and beat his body up his whole life, and I think he's finally giving in to the idea that the making will be limited going forward. He's a whole lot nicer and more generous than his detractors would like people to believe.


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## GerryT (17 Aug 2021)

Gary_S said:


> It amazes me that there are people posting here about other people who make content and shock and horror make money from doing so who appear to have some experience in working with wood and forget that woodwork is not a science. Often, right and wrong is subjective. What suits one person in the way they hone, sharpen or saw, may not suit another. Either way, the wood does't care, the joint will fit well enough most of the time. Imprecision and minor imperfections and all.
> 
> When PS, RC et al expound on a subject, they are giving an opinion. Many on here have said as much. Why act like a bunch of armchair contract lawyers and look for phrases that seem to make someone look bad, appear arrogant, a bit of a know it all. You know they don't know it all but you also know that they are doing something positive, not sitting harping on fora.



But that’s the point Gary, (at least my point) they aren’t always giving just an opinion but throwing around dogmatism as if that’s the end of it.
Unwary prospective woodies latch unto this sort of talk and go out of their way to perpetuate the dogmatism.
Sure, we can all choose to ignore or not, but some folk who are just starting out to spend their hard earned cash don’t often know a good chisel from a fork.
Certainly there is plenty of sound advice to be had from RC or PS but my initial post was not referring to their advice per se, but their plain and simple dogmatism when they do give advice …“My way is right and you‘re way is wrong “ or “my way is the only way” .

Nothing wrong with making money out of producing online content..if it’s good.
But some are making money out of online content by telling others that they‘re making money out of woodwork they produce, and you can do the same, or at least giving that impression no doubt deliberately, when in fact they’re making money out of producing online content “about” woodworking …there’s a world of difference.
Sometimes false impressions are no different from telling porkies.

Recently I was talking to someone who got hooked onto PS’s website.
He bought a load of tools of EBay including a couple of Stanley No4s (PS‘s fav).
He also bought a Record 071 for which he paid £145.
I ask him why he bought 071 instead of buying a new Lie-Nielsen or Veritas for a few pound more and he said he had considered them but PS seemed to recommended the 071 over and above the others.
Why I ask this recommendation, it’s not that much cheaper than the Veritas or Lie-Nielsen ?
Could it be just preference on PS’ behalf ?
Maybe, but maybe not.

PS’s has a way of making simple things simple and not over complicating what should be simple tasks and seems a nice enough fella ,but his “my way or no way” mentality isn’t particularly endearing.

Thats only in my opinion of course as I haven’t tried him out over time against anyone of similar quality to make a genuine comparison 

This forum is as good as any for advice with little dogmatism on show …except when it comes to sharpening techniques of course


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

GerryT said:


> ......
> 
> Recently I was talking to someone who got hooked onto PS’s website.
> He bought a load of tools of EBay including a couple of Stanley No4s (PS‘s fav).
> ...


He wrote a blog in 2012 about 071s and hardly mentions LV or LN alternatives.
Can't see any reason why he should have - he doesn't sell tools and wasn't doing a consumer report comparison. It's up to the buyer to do that.
It'd be crazy if every time he mentioned a tool he had to cross reference all the other options for the sake of balance!
It would also be boring and highly contentious! Buying Good Tools Cheap - The Router Plane - Paul Sellers' Blog


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## D_W (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> He wrote a blog in 2012 about 071s and makes no mention of the modern LV or LN alternatives.
> Can't see any reason why he should have - he doesn't sell tools and wasn't doing a consumer report comparison. It's up to the buyer to do that.
> It'd be crazy if every time he mentioned a tool he had to cross reference all the other options for the sake of balance!
> It would also be boring and highly contentious! Buying Good Tools Cheap - The Router Plane - Paul Sellers' Blog



Let's be honest, too. He's got a gimmick to peddle, the "old ones are better than the new ones" gimmick. If he turned around and said "ghee, now that they're the same price, it really doesn't make a difference what you buy", it would blow up the gimmick. 

I personally like the old ones better, but because they're a little loose and less precise. I'd have to think a little harder if they cost more than a new one, though (had the LV version and sold it - it broke the rust rule. Rust rule - if you have a premium tool and it rusts due to disuse, out the door it goes).


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## GerryT (17 Aug 2021)

Again Jacob you miss the point entirely .
If you’re saying that a tool is superior or better based on your use of it over an above an other of the same tool on the market then surely you need to have used them both to come to that conclusion and recommend ?
I can say that I feel the 071 is a good tool because I have one and use it, but couldn’t tell you if it’s “better” or “superior“ than a LN or Veritas as I haven’t used either of them, but that’s what PS consistently does.
Its not rocket science .
PS bases his views on consistently recommending older tools.
Like D-W says, it his gimmick or hook.

Much like your hook or gimmick is hollow stones, rounded bevels and hand sharpening.

That’s a joke by the way


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

GerryT said:


> Again Jacob you miss the point entirely .
> If you’re saying that a tool is superior or better based on your use of it over an above an other of the same tool on the market then surely you need to have used them both to come to that conclusion and recommend ?


Sellers didn't say they were superior - he didn't compare them at all. ....


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

GerryT said:


> Again Jacob you miss the point entirely .
> If you’re saying that a tool is superior or better based on your use of it over an above an other of the same tool on the market then surely you need to have used them both to come to that conclusion and recommend ?
> I can say that I feel the 071 is a good tool because I have one and use it, but couldn’t tell you if it’s “better” or “superior“ than a LN or Veritas as I haven’t used either of them, but that’s what PS consistently does.
> Its not rocket science .
> ...


Why shouldn't he recommend older tools if that's what he thinks? He explains why, and they were a lot cheaper when he wrote that blog - value for money is a big issue for some of us.
I'd recommend them too, in general, and I have tried a lot of them.


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## heimlaga (17 Aug 2021)

In my books it is a good thing that someone is trying to stem the spread of the ideas that tools must be shiny and expensive to do their job. However one always has to remember that there is not and has never been any "one size fits all" in woodworking.


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## TheTiddles (17 Aug 2021)

heimlaga said:


> In my books it is a good thing that someone is trying to stem the spread of the ideas that tools must be shiny and expensive to do their job. However one always has to remember that there is not and has never been any "one size fits all" in woodworking.


Do you see the idea that tools have to be shiny and expensive to work being promoted, or is it that someone says “this is a great tool” and it happens to be shiny and expensive?

If someone picks up a block plane made by Clifton/veritas/LN even the Chinese manufactures of higher quality tools in the last 20-years, that hasn’t been abused, it’s going to be shiny and might be relatively expensive, they’re still great tools, you’d be sliding a cigarette paper between them in terms of performance.


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## GerryT (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Sellers didn't say they were superior - he didn't compare them at all. ....



Jacob are you being deliberately obtuse or is that just the way you are ?

What is it that he didn’t compare Jacob ?
I think in your haste to have yourself heard you either don’t read the posts or misunderstand what’s actually being said.

If you go back to my original thread post you will see we’re I’m coming from and see that PS does use the term “superior“ when talking about older planes.
But then again maybe you don’t want to see what the thread was about at the beginning.



Heimlaga

Yes it is good, but the cheaper tools are no longer cheaper tools for the most part.
Tools don’t have to be shiny and most of mine, in fact probably all of them aren’t shiny.
I‘m not advocating folk buy LN or Veritas or any other top maker’s tools, far from it.
The original post was not about the price of tools or make of tools but about comparison or lack of it in recommendations .


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## Jacob (17 Aug 2021)

GerryT said:


> Jacob are you being deliberately obtuse or is that just the way you are ?
> 
> What is it that he didn’t compare Jacob ?
> I think in your haste to have yourself heard you either don’t read the posts or misunderstand what’s actually being said.
> ...


Yes I'm missing the point. If he thinks some tools are superior why shouldn't he say so?
Re: older Stanleys being better than later ones - this is well known, they went downhill a bit.


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## D_W (17 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Why shouldn't he recommend older tools if that's what he thinks? He explains why, and they were a lot cheaper when he wrote that blog - value for money is a big issue for some of us.
> I'd recommend them too, in general, and I have tried a lot of them.



Certainly if I were trying to wring out the maximum for people going to classes, I'd push the whole "don't spend money on tools. Live the good life and come to my classes". I didn't keep notes as there was something that smelled funny to me about paul's media push at the outset (how would most people not know who he was if there was something notable about him? Did anyone ever have to describe lynton mckenzie to an engraving student? 

But as I recall, some of these "lifestyle woodworking" courses were around $700 at the time. 

There's nothing particularly wrong with a woodworking course for $700, either - if that's what someone wants to do. But there's nothing taught in them that's not as well or better described in older texts if someone actually wants to work by hand.


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## AJB Temple (17 Aug 2021)

Is this thread just meant to be an attack on Mr Sellers? If so, why? He expresses a view. We are all at liberty to disagree. Nothing much has been added as far as I can see in 6 pages.


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## jcassidy (17 Aug 2021)

I don't really understand the heated opinions. Sellers has his website and his social media and his opinions, all of which anyone can use, or not. Its not his fault if some think he's a god or savant. It's his right to monetise his expertise, experience, and opinion. 

A lot of what he says probably is aimed at his audience, who want to be told that the old Record or Stanley plane they picked up at a car boot is BETTER then an expensive LN plane, so there! / Nyah nyah. 

People who want to be told that a new LN plane is the end all and be all of planes, well they probably don't watch Paul Sellers... They watch someone else. 

If I had a website and I said my crappy Ross plane is the best plá é ever made, and some officious Joe made a comment pointing out how wrong I am, I'd remove the comment to. 

It's my f**king website.


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## jcassidy (17 Aug 2021)

BTW I bought his book and I really like it.

I also bought the book about the Worthington tool chest, another one about the preservation of medieval ring forts in Ireland "Men who eat ring forts", by a small commune in Clare, and "32 Words for Field" by Manchán Magan.

In other words, if there's a limited print book by some independent entity on an interesting topic, I'll probably buy it!

I found Magan was the most opinionated by far....


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## Noel (17 Aug 2021)

jcassidy said:


> BTW I bought his book and I really like it.
> 
> I also bought the book about the Worthington tool chest, another one about the preservation of medieval ring forts in Ireland "Men who eat ring forts", by a small commune in Clare, and "32 Words for Field" by Manchán Magan.
> 
> ...




Manchán Magan can be an interesting character, enjoy his talks on history. Rubbish at building houses although....
Must check out Ringforts, I see one of the authors is Sinéad Mercier, who I follow on SM. (Assume it's the same person).


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## D_W (18 Aug 2021)

Noel said:


> Manchán Magan can be an interesting character, enjoy his talks on history. Rubbish at building houses although....
> Must check out Ringforts, I see one of the authors is Sinéad Mercier, who I follow on SM. (Assume it's the same person).



I don't know anything about this Magan, but we have two frank lloyd wright houses local here (kentuck knob and falling water). Kentuck knob is rather pedestrian (though some of the ideas in it are a bit weird), but I understand many of FLWs houses don't stay together very well without enormous amounts of cash inflow. 

I'm guessing we're talking about totally different types, though.


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## Gary_S (18 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> Sometimes people share information on forums without expecting anything in return.


They do. Sometimes people harp. I prefer the former.


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## pidgeonpost (18 Aug 2021)

jcassidy said:


> I don't really understand the heated opinions. Sellers has his website and his social media and his opinions, all of which anyone can use, or not. Its not his fault if some think he's a god or savant. It's his right to monetise his expertise, experience, and opinion.
> 
> A lot of what he says probably is aimed at his audience, who want to be told that the old Record or Stanley plane they picked up at a car boot is BETTER then an expensive LN plane, so there! / Nyah nyah.
> 
> ...


It's that sort of forum. Sometimes members who are the most helpful can also be the most combative. It's a bit like the Sellers/Cosman discussions and you just have to dip and then, as I do, dip out when it all gets a bit silly.


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## Noel (18 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> I don't know anything about this Magan, but we have two frank lloyd wright houses local here (kentuck knob and falling water). Kentuck knob is rather pedestrian (though some of the ideas in it are a bit weird), but I understand many of FLWs houses don't stay together very well without enormous amounts of cash inflow.
> 
> I'm guessing we're talking about totally different types, though.



I don't know how to even start to reply to that DW. What are you on about?


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## ecokestove (18 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to find that the lifetime servicing of an old whatever would involve more work than making a new one.


I very much doubt it. I often buy used tools and other things from eBay. I'm not against it, but businesses need people to buy their products or services in order to thrive, or even survive. It's just a point to consider when buying something and, of course, it's the buyer's choice. Also, today's new thing is tomorrow's used thing. You can have the last word if you like.


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## Jacob (18 Aug 2021)

ecokestove said:


> .... You can have the last word if you like.


OK thanks! So you believe in the throw away society - just buy another rather than service?


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## whereistheceilidh (18 Aug 2021)

Noel said:


> I don't know how to even start to reply to that DW. What are you on about?


Don't be put off DW. I for one would like to know your oppinion of how well FLW buildings have been put together.


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## Jacob (18 Aug 2021)

Noel said:


> I don't know how to even start to reply to that DW. What are you on about?


He built a straw house! I didn't know that either.


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## jcassidy (18 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> many of FLWs houses don't stay together very well without enormous amounts of cash inflow.



LOL, Mangan is an made-for-TV intellectual, Dave, you know the type, wild mane of hair, a doctorate degree in some obscure humanities subject, and good telepresence. He built a house out of straw bales, at one stage. 

I think he also did a 'cottage garden' type gig on TV too. His book is about the lost richness of the Irish language, like it has 32 words for 'field', each specific to a type of field and what it might be good for.

It's actually quite common for pushing-the-envelope-types to make or build things that don't last very well. The Last Supper fresco by da Vinci is famously unstable, as da Vinci was experimenting with new techniques and methods. I wouldn't necessarily count Manhan Magan in the same category... LOL


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## raffo (18 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> we have two frank lloyd wright houses local here (kentuck knob and falling water). Kentuck knob is rather pedestrian (though some of the ideas in it are a bit weird), but I understand many of FLWs houses don't stay together very well without enormous amounts of cash inflow.



When I was a poor and very young grad student I was invited to visit Falling Water, great I said, upon arriving I was informed I needed to pay an absurd amount (in my opinion) to see the interior. I was happy to just look from the outside. I'm sure they get plenty of money to maintain it. Many years later I did actually go inside, I can't give a review, but I do like the idea of having a creek run through the living room.

P.S. If any of you are ever in North Carolina (USA) and someone invites you to a place called Biltmore, I'd suggest you decline or check ticket prices in advance, specially if you're with the wife and kids.


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## D_W (18 Aug 2021)

whereistheceilidh said:


> Don't be put off DW. I for one would like to know your oppinion of how well FLW buildings have been put together.



My apologies to Noel - I guessed at the Mangan type and thought maybe he was a half-baked builder who was a bit of a free spirit and did whatever he wants, but it sounds like he's more of a showman.

FLW came to mind only because when you're in school here and you do basic american history stuff, you get some bits about architecture and FLW is always in them. Falling water is famous locally and probably nationally here. Not sure if it's ever mentioned internationally, but the house sits over a stream, is extremely humid to say the least, and at some point while building it, they had trouble with water incursion on one side so instead of trying to build past it, the water just runs through while you're in the house.

When it was built, large parts of it were formed from concrete, and cantilevered, and they deflected immediately, but I guess it's too late at that point.

When reconditioning and stabilizing of the house was undertaken two decades ago, it cost almost $12MM. It's just a bold design that had problems from the start as described to us on the tour. It also ended up about double to almost quintuple the original estimate depending on how you explain the cost overruns (I think interior bits, a second guest house, etc, were added....even at the time, the structures cost a princely sum - especially the guest house which is small and cost double the three story brick house an uncle of mine lived in a town near where I grew up)

In kentuck knob, FLW referred to the house (it's pedestrian compared to fallingwater) "usonian", something the average person could afford. The house is owned by a foundation (probably to get it off of the tax roles and make it eligible for generating revenue without that revenue being taxable or the property being taxable) - we toured that, too. It's a house that no average person could afford, most of its appointments are fabulously uncomfortable to sit on, it's got a strange high head level narrow window all the way around, and odd bits like a hallway that's intentionally extremely narrow (to the point of making you wonder how you could get normal things to the bedrooms - like beds or furniture) due to FLWs thought that having the hallways be very tight and difficult to pass through makes people more comfortable or something of the sort (makes the tours a little too comfortable!).

What reminded me is that FLW was apparently extremely proud, bold and opinionated. So confident that in the K-N tour, they told us that he would have boquets of flowers sent to owners of the home well after it was finished, and then follow up with an invoice to cover the cost of the flowers.

But we are fascinated with oddballs. There is some fascination to me that Paul will make claims, he or his curators of the blog will trim comments out and maintain this sort of incomplete reality. Is it just business, or is it really a case of "whether i'm right or wrong, I'm right".

(I've got a pair of relatives also who went their own direction and were very successful and good at ignoring things they didn't do well - it never seemed to affect them. they did far better than they probably would have if they'd have had more self awareness, using their oddness and confidence as an asset).


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## Noel (18 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> My apologies to Noel - I guessed at the Mangan type and thought maybe he was a half-baked builder who was a bit of a free spirit and did whatever he wants, but it sounds like he's more of a showman.
> 
> FLW came to mind only because when you're in school here and you do basic american history stuff, you get some bits about architecture and FLW is always in them. Falling water is famous locally and probably nationally here. Not sure if it's ever mentioned internationally, but the house sits over a stream, is extremely humid to say the least, and at some point while building it, they had trouble with water incursion on one side so instead of trying to build past it, the water just runs through while you're in the house.
> 
> ...



No apologies needed, just couldn't see how you went from somebody like Mangan to Lloyd-Wright. I think the straw bale building was a bit of an experiment and had no planning permission.
Personally I don't see him as too much of a showman, did a lot good work in Africa and as said I do enjoy his talks,. others may not. Lives somewhere in Westmeath now I think.


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## D_W (18 Aug 2021)

Noel said:


> No apologies needed, just couldn't see how you went from somebody like Mangan to Lloyd-Wright. I think the straw bale building was a bit of an experiment and had no planning permission.
> Personally I don't see him as too much of a showman, did a lot good work in Africa and as said I do enjoy his talks,. others may not. Lives somewhere in Westmeath now I think.



i'll have to go listen to some of his talks - needless to say, he's not a known entity here in the states. I like the straw bale house thing (but that, and earth bags and filled tires, etc, have all been pushed here at one time or another). I'd assumed the guy was perhaps a builder first and talker second, but he sounds like an idea guy.

it's the nutballs who fail most of the time (at least to make something better than what's already available), but move us forward in giant leaps when they succeed.

(FLW was less nutball and more oddball, and it's easy for me to base the above on what we heard on tours of the properties and discussion of how expensive it would be to actually own and maintain fallingwater (if you could even tolerate bumping your head on the ceilings in the bedrooms, as another oddity of FLW is his assumption that things should be "people scale" in some areas, and that people would be more comfortable with the ceiling right above their head in some spaces then well above). I know there are tons of homes that look more normal in illinois and probably a bunch in california. Not sure how many are lived in by individuals, as a quick look at some of the more famous designs shows they are also owned by foundations. Popular thing here in my state where property taxes are high - it's like a 10 year old mercedes. At some point, the cost of having the car starts to make less sense than just giving it away. I'm not sad I toured them, though. 

It's hotter here than there. We're used to it, but when you go to fallingwater, you still end up struck by just how oppressive the humidity is even with the house in the mountains. There's an exit under the house to literally go sit in the creek under it if it's too hot. When we were there, I could only think that of the massive kind of overthought structure, I could do without all of it other than a little hut above and the steps to sit in the moving water and read.


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## D_W (18 Aug 2021)

raffo said:


> When I was a poor and very young grad student I was invited to visit Falling Water, great I said, upon arriving I was informed I needed to pay an absurd amount (in my opinion) to see the interior. I was happy to just look from the outside. I'm sure they get plenty of money to maintain it. Many years later I did actually go inside, I can't give a review, but I do like the idea of having a creek run through the living room.
> 
> P.S. If any of you are ever in North Carolina (USA) and someone invites you to a place called Biltmore, I'd suggest you decline or check ticket prices in advance, specially if you're with the wife and kids.



Both fallingwater and kentuck knob are pretty expensive for what you see (very expensive, I guess - kentuck knob is $100+ for a family with two older kids and a tour that's around 30-40 minutes, and kind of underwhelming. An enormous amount of building material in and under the house, but not that much interior space). It looks like fallingwater has grown (you have to pay to get on the grounds now, too) and has a restaurant and museum and event center. Starts to feel like a bit much. As I recall, they also check if you'd like to buy a membership to the latter and give additional amounts. No clue what the full access tickets cost but it costs $10 per person to walk on the property outside of the house itself.


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## D_W (18 Aug 2021)

Thanks for the reference noel - i found the Mangan talk about the straw house and having oat straw available on low cost land.

I see how far off the FLW thought was now! (and I'm shocked that there's been anywhere now or the recent past where you could get 10 acres for 10 grand in the UK). 

Mangan's last comment in the segment was interesting "I haven't always made the best decisions, but people seem to look after me" or something like that. hah.


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## Noel (18 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> Thanks for the reference noel - i found the Mangan talk about the straw house and having oat straw available on low cost land.
> 
> I see how far off the FLW thought was now! (and I'm shocked that there's been anywhere now or the recent past where you could get 10 acres for 10 grand in the UK).
> 
> Mangan's last comment in the segment was interesting "I haven't always made the best decisions, but people seem to look after me" or something like that. hah.



He's in Ireland and you can still get land for a similar price. It'll not be premium arable land but well worth a go. It might be a bit boggy or rocky or lightly forested etc. PP might be a bigger issue if you want to build but plenty of opportunities out there. One reason why lots of GB folk have left the rat race and moved there to lead a more self sustaining lifestyle, many off grid. 
One bloke I met bought 5/6 acres on the west coast. Had an old briar which he converted, 2/3 acres of forest (for the fire/back burner) and plenty of space to grow food, the rest he rented out to a farmer. 
When I'm in the office or on the road it's certainly an attractive proposition.


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## heimlaga (18 Aug 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Do you see the idea that tools have to be shiny and expensive to work being promoted, or is it that someone says “this is a great tool” and it happens to be shiny and expensive?
> 
> If someone picks up a block plane made by Clifton/veritas/LN even the Chinese manufactures of higher quality tools in the last 20-years, that hasn’t been abused, it’s going to be shiny and might be relatively expensive, they’re still great tools, you’d be sliding a cigarette paper between them in terms of performance.


I advocate buying high quality tools when you buy new and I almost always buy the best quality I can afford when I buy new but everything doesn't have to be neither new nor factory made. Sometimes buying new is worth the cost and sometimes not. Sometimes making a tool from scratch is worth the effort and sometimes not.
What I don't like is when people are made believe that they need a full complement of tools and gadgets from a number of specific makers aimed at their specific cathegory of customers. Many youtube woodworkers seem to promote that way of thinking.


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## TheTiddles (18 Aug 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> Is this thread just meant to be an attack on Mr Sellers? If so, why? He expresses a view. We are all at liberty to disagree. Nothing much has been added as far as I can see in 6 pages.


It seems like some people want to post an opinion and get upset if others don’t agree with them, I can’t help but feel the internet


heimlaga said:


> I advocate buying high quality tools when you buy new and I almost always buy the best quality I can afford when I buy new but everything doesn't have to be neither new nor factory made. Sometimes buying new is worth the cost and sometimes not. Sometimes making a tool from scratch is worth the effort and sometimes not.
> What I don't like is when people are made believe that they need a full complement of tools and gadgets from a number of specific makers aimed at their specific cathegory of customers. Many youtube woodworkers seem to promote that way of thinking.


Do you have an example to illustrate this?


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## Ttrees (18 Aug 2021)

Cosman recommends some expensive gear a bit too often, but he does mention that that's his philosophy to have good tools that he likes using.
However he will have a discussion about the other options/methods and always gives _his own _reasons with clarity as to why he likes something so most of the time, one can make their own mind up about that.
No secret that he's pushing products, heck he's even selling maple syrup or something,
Has anyone seen the new offset jig instead of the marking gauge? 
That sold those wheel gauges to me early on, well a cheapie Axi version, bought another since.

Those are the adds that you have to deal with, in order to get free content, which he produces much of.
Regardless of the tool pushing, the work is honest in my view, and that's the most important part of it all to me.
Good to see someone willing to try out new ideas, and not closed off and unwilling to change and quiet about it.
I pestered him about using the cap iron before on a tearout free video, which very well may likely be a bit of a sore subject for someone selling thicker double irons and super expensive hones
(not looked at the shop to see the price but believe those Shaptons to be OTT x20)
I suspect that will take a good chunk of youtubers to actually publish videos demonstrating this correctly, experimentation of geometry on the cap, and the knock on effects of this, (getting away without needing that Shapton edge) for most gurus to take heed of this.
He did entertain the thought and said he must look into it a bit more.

I suspect the team might have experimented with this a bit, some seem to spend a good deal of time there working on machines and whatever else likely to do with the saw manufacturing.
For the easily irritable, it might be worth checking out his older publications like that 3 1/2 minute dovetail video which Estlea hilariously beat recently.
Cosman mentioned that hadn't gone un-noticed!
Love to see that sort of engagement or should I say acknowledgment 
and being a good sport about it all.


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## John Brown (18 Aug 2021)

My brother in law built a straw bale house about 12 years ago. Three storey building, in the Washington State pine forest. I visited him and his family but once while they were there. Fascinating project. He sold it at a profit and moved to Spokane, and as far as anyone knows, it's never actually been lived in since.
I expect he got fed up with all the big bad wolf remarks... His current house is a so-called 50s Rancher, so essentially sticks. In America they don't seem to use bricks so much.
I've probably got some pictures somewhere...


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## Jonm (19 Aug 2021)

John Brown said:


> In America they don't seem to use bricks so much.


The price rises in timber must be hitting them hard.


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## John Brown (19 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> The price rises in timber must be hitting them hard.


No doubt. For years I've been envious of the cheaper "lumber" in the US. Seems those days are over. Plywood is cheaper in the UK now, if my American relations are to be believed.
Probably still cheaper for houses than bricks and mortar, though.


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## D_W (19 Aug 2021)

John Brown said:


> My brother in law built a straw bale house about 12 years ago. Three storey building, in the Washington State pine forest. I visited him and his family but once while they were there. Fascinating project. He sold it at a profit and moved to Spokane, and as far as anyone knows, it's never actually been lived in since.
> I expect he got fed up with all the big bad wolf remarks... His current house is a so-called 50s Rancher, so essentially sticks. In America they don't seem to use bricks so much.
> I've probably got some pictures somewhere...



Seems to be regional here, but the new construction sure does favor the siding! In the 50s, the siding and stick houses were probably aluminum (the back room off of my house had aluminum siding, but I think it was added on and not part of the original house. My street was built in the 50s, but it's all brick. Some is red brick (mine is) and others is "insulbrick" or whatever it would be called here, which based on the bricks decladding on my neighbor's house, looks like a core of something with cladding on the outside.

This is the house I grew up in. Like the straw man, the materials were pulled from the site. It's granite with 16" thick walls (the hillside behind the house was mined and removed - it's granite). In true US rural tradition, the look is always spoiled by utility lines.







Big yard, big trees, not my bag - but in a world with other peoples' money, I'd love to live there in retirement after my parents have finished their shift. They would prefer that, but far more likely that it'll be sold unless I get divorced first. 

When you get into planned neighborhoods here, though, you can run into siding upon siding upon siding. Perfectly fine to live in, I guess, but the trend of spec houses to have bigger and bigger houses but cut costs on the windows and they look like big plastic boxes. Anyone who has ever been further east here to the philadelphia area will see a whole bunch of granite houses and stone barns. Really lovely looking houses (nothing to raid on parents' property (there's 21 acres of it behind them - everything big is red oak. Worth more as firewood than lumber).

Separately, I like the concept of the straw house - you get the bulk and insulation without the weight or cost.

People who live in vinyl siding new houses with MDF exterior trim shouldn't throw OSB at straw houses!


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## heimlaga (19 Aug 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> It seems like some people want to post an opinion and get upset if others don’t agree with them, I can’t help but feel the internet
> 
> Do you have an example to illustrate this?


There are that woodwhisperer chap and many others who seem to have made it a mainstay of their business to promote certain brands. Unfortunately quite a few wiewers seem to be fooled. And then there are all those who think everybody must have a full lineup of whatever brand and promote that idea on forums.


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## D_W (19 Aug 2021)

On the music side of things, individual efforts to do one single sponsored video can yield $10K. 

I don't watch any of those channels - they're always sort of part of the beginner's trap that just continues to go forever, but remember "april wilkerson" - I think that was her name - who was the definition of not accomplished when she started her channel being recommended by youtube. AT some point, a video showed up with an entire wall of portable orange tools behind her. At that point, I requested the right click "please don't recommend content from this channel", but that whole thing is the youtube dream. 

It's cheap advertising for brands. Realistically, can you imagine any other way that a single brand can for $10K reach an ideal target market of 400k people who are lubricated by a personality that "they trust"? It's great for everyone except folks watching. It's not like it's that horrible for the folks watching, either - much like magazines used to always include a brand and where to buy or who to contact - it just creates a sense that the activity and tools in the video got there some way other than highest reasonable bidder.


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## Rorschach (20 Aug 2021)

Paul's best ever tip!


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## D_W (20 Aug 2021)

If the wood type allows, I use a leaf shredder to pick up the shavings. It vacuums and breaks them into tiny bits all at once. Just a cheap electric one. Some woods have exceptional strength along their length, and it's not a great idea for them. Hard maple comes to mind, but most everything else so far shreds to bits and then they fit well in the fire pit.


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## Gary_S (24 Aug 2021)

heimlaga said:


> There are that woodwhisperer chap and many others who seem to have made it a mainstay of their business to promote certain brands. Unfortunately quite a few wiewers seem to be fooled. And then there are all those who think everybody must have a full lineup of whatever brand and promote that idea on forums.


He open;ly admits that he is sponsored by Titebond (I personally love it) and Powermatic (They look like great tools). He NEVER though says you should buy this or that. In fact, his recent posts are the antithesis of what you suggest.


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## Droogs (24 Aug 2021)

mmmmm Powermatic - so deliciously 50's yum yum


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## hlvd (27 Aug 2021)

I’d put off watching a Paul Sellers video for a few weeks since learning about him thinking he was just another YouTube hobbyist.

I’ve now watched two and I’m very impressed, he handles tools like he’s done it for a living and his explanatory style reminds me of my lecturer in technical college.

I’m of the same opinion, whilst a Lie Nielsen or Veritas would probably be a very pleasant planing experience they won’t make anyone a better woodworker, that skill is purely in the user.


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## hlvd (27 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Now that's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from someone who'd never been self employed. Extend deadlines that way and you end up with dissatisfied customers, cancelled orders and lost revenue. Does he actually teach anything about running a business on his courses? Of course not, because that would mean admitting that it is damned hard work. Apologies to anyone who was/is in the profession (my wife was), but what was it Shaw said about teaching?
> 
> 
> I don't know where you are in the world (I suspect the USA) but certainly when Paul came into the trade (late 1960s?) better firms were still running a 3 to 4 year apprenticeship and many expected you to train as a carpenter and joiner. In shopfitting and barfitting firms (my own background) you were taught many cabinetmaking skills such as veneering and finishing (staining and spraying mainly). We were taught to do a lot with machinery as well as by hand, but I was never good enough to be passed over to our resident stair joiner, who could carve handrail wreath damned nigh perfectly. The biggest difference, thougj, is that as joiners we learned nothing about design, aesthetics or the history of furniture because we often work to an architect's drawings. So in technical terms I wouldn't knock him that hard - the man does seem to know a lot about technique


I’m of a similar background to yourself and served a four year apprenticeship as a Joiner in the Eighties.
I agree, from what I see, the way he holds and uses his plane and other hand tools he’s also of a similar background. He talks a lot of sense and I really don’t get all the hate


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## D_W (27 Aug 2021)

hlvd said:


> I’d put off watching a Paul Sellers video for a few weeks since learning about him thinking he was just another YouTube hobbyist.
> 
> I’ve now watched two and I’m very impressed, he handles tools like he’s done it for a living and his explanatory style reminds me of my lecturer in technical college.
> 
> I’m of the same opinion, whilst a Lie Nielsen or Veritas would probably be a very pleasant planing experience they won’t make anyone a better woodworker, that skill is purely in the user.



Your statement is different than saying the old ones are better. That's what got him the static.


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## hlvd (27 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> Your statement is different than saying the old ones are better. That's what got him the static.


Maybe, but I recognise that he knows what he’s talking about so have to respect his opinion.


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## D_W (27 Aug 2021)

I think a lot of guys know what they're talking about. Cosman gets a lot of hate, but his work is tidy. Proportions are sometimes odd, so his disciples show up with small cases with really fat drawer sides and overzealous half blind displays of a certain proportion, but I don't see much from folks who take sellers' class. 

The reality is with either of them, you're set to be a hobbyist at best. That's their customer base, and presenting something simple and consistent (and in paul's case, unending opinions and what appears to be curation of the blog comments to keep up some odd image) draws the beginners, and keeps the ones who don't progress there (they're profitable - someone who progresses quickly will not be).


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## thetyreman (27 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> I don't see much from folks who take sellers' class.
> 
> The reality is with either of them, you're set to be a hobbyist at best.



there's no physical classes anymore, sellers moved his stuff online with his woodworking masterclasses, you have to pay to get the best stuff, I was a member and made a lot of the paid for projects and it's improved my skills a lot, I have recently been offered paid work which technically means I'm no longer a hobbyist, all the fundamental skills were learnt through sellers teachings.


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## thetyreman (27 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> Cosman gets a lot of hate, but his work is tidy.



the hate is because he's a snake oil salesman and he's constantly trying to sell you something.


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## Jacob (27 Aug 2021)

thetyreman said:


> the hate is because he's a snake oil salesman and he's constantly trying to sell you something.


Thing is - would you buy a 2nd hand car from any of them? I would from Sellers, not sure about many of the others!


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## D_W (27 Aug 2021)

thetyreman said:


> there's no physical classes anymore, sellers moved his stuff online with his woodworking masterclasses, you have to pay to get the best stuff, I was a member and made a lot of the paid for projects and it's improved my skills a lot, I have recently been offered paid work which technically means I'm no longer a hobbyist, all the fundamental skills were learnt through sellers teachings.



I'm looking for a little more I guess if considering things professionally made, though you could get into paid woodwork without hand tools at all. Paul reminds me of scott grove - the move to online classes only may have been the intention from the start as it's got to be more profitable and far less of a hassle. 

Scott grove is a guy who was sort of a washed up local and former regional guitarist who found very early that he could teach simplified lessons to beginners and do it online rather than trying to do it in classes, and at least by has claim, he'd gotten to the point where the residuals from his classes were 7 figures. He's a different character than paul (he is intentionally rude and opinionated), but same business model. His fans gush like paul's fans, and his haters still tune in like people who hate paul's opinions, but Grove takes it to a level that nobody in England would have the poor manners to do. 

-----------

Are you further ahead than you would've been if you'd have been directed to good texts about hand tools? I doubt it. I'm not, either - I found my way to HT by leisure and then using them (and leaving behind the gimmicky stuff) by experience. There are texts I could've learned from, but people were too busy talking about roubo and workbenches. Roubo is good stuff (But better for someone to read the actual roubo works and stay away from Chris Schwarz). Nicholson is excellent, but most of it is things you wouldn't need to know now (the planing section is dead on point - almost nothing else is). 

I see Rob and Paul a lot the same, except Rob makes stuff and sells it and imports stuff and sells it. I think the effort in that is a bridge too far for paul, but he's older (and most of what rob sells is made by employees if it's not imported). That part has always been there for Rob - I'd guess originally when he was doing things like touring woodcraft stores giving classes, it was a way to add some revenue to the trip. They're likely both successful at making money. 

As far as the standard for professional, I guess I've sold somewhere around 20 planes and 80 chisels, but I don't consider myself a professional. Being professional here causes problems with taxes and insurance, so the only tools I"ve ever marked up are those that were being sold for charity (and that's uncommon - the charity thing - it's easier for me to just give money than make a tool and chance it only bringing double the cost of materials in it). If I don't feel like making something, I will sometimes squeeze someone I don't know and charge them materials and make them choose a charity and charge them more and then send them a receipt for anything over material costs - they get to choose the charity (e.g., if I don't feel like making a plane, I'll charge them $350 instead of the $100 material costs and then tell them to choose a charity for the difference - but only if they try to motivate by saying they'll pay whatever is asked when I say i'm not in business to make money). 

I would consider myself a professional if making tools sustained me or did a large share of that. I think the odds for folks coming into paul or rob's classes are poor, but I don't know that rob ever advertises that. Paul does, which irritates me. The individual in the class will be the reason they become a professional, and they'd do it without paul. 

I've always had pleasant interactions with Rob, but sometimes he _does _make you shake your head a little. For example, he said people want his saws with exotic handles - since I've commented on a video or two lately (which surprisingly, he's never banned me), I got a video of him showing making a wooden handle for his saws. I went out and looked, and figured he'd probably charge an extra $150 or something for an exotic handle. Nope - birdseye maple above and beyond the price of a resin handled saw? +$500. pink ivory? +$850 (!!)

I heard an old saying from a guy (now dead) where I grew up who sold a bunch of overpriced stuff and rarely sold much. "if you don't ask it, you won't get it".


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## D_W (27 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Thing is - would you buy a 2nd hand car from any of them? I would from Sellers, not sure about many of the others!



Cosman is LDS. I'd bet he's awfully honest. He's salesy, but I've never seen him be dishonest. Some people hate salesiness more than they hate dishonesty, but that's their choice.

I'd feel pretty safe buying a car from Mr. Charlesworth, too. I think most would feel safe buying a car from me, but they might fear that I'd tell them every single thing about it in long form and avoid just because of that. "Here's what I'd do for pads and rotors on this car, here's what I've done, and the door switches - not so great, and here's what else. Not going to sell it until you know everything I know about it".

(I'm not a woodworking personality, though).


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## D_W (27 Aug 2021)

(separately, in terms of the criticism of the rounded over very expensive handles from Rob C - I remember not too long ago, George Wilson said something like "I'd have to have $500 to make a saw". 



https://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRestorations/MFMitreboxRebuild_html_b6a3559.jpg



Here's a picture of two that he made with faceted folded backs (not slotted) and very crisply made handles. 

George isn't making anything now, though. George never sold saws because I don't think he felt comfortable with the idea of getting grief over asking $500. most of the market can't tell the difference between Rob's handles and George's, though, but there is an enormous divide. 

(if those look like Groves, George is very fond of the design of the Groves handles).


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## John Brown (27 Aug 2021)

"Cosman is LDS"
Enough said.
Where are all the athiest plane-pushing chisellers these days?


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## Ttrees (27 Aug 2021)

I would try and avoid anyone who uses the lever cap as a screwdriver, but alas I have no money for
buying cars. 

I spotted an error on one of Cosman's recent videos.
It's the only one in however many youtube years that I can recall, so isn't a bad record.
Can't say the same about most other folks.

Rob's covered a lot of subjects, and is open to early morning grumpy criticism or questions, and you don't need pay a penny unlike the drip feed system most youtubing gurus choose.

He does say that quality pays off, nothing stopping anyone from getting an old tool to work as well, so provided you don't try and make your own sawstop, and have all too much faith in it,
you will likely gain a lot of knowledge and skills.

TIP Just fast forward until he picks up something


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## D_W (27 Aug 2021)

I always use the cap iron if a plane fits the screw. One thing that I don't like is finding a lever cap where the front lip is wider than the screw slot - stanley would've done that intentionally (made that fit). 

HOWEVER - when I get a plane that's new to me or one where the screw is firmly in place, screwdriver - always - first go around (well, sort of, I'll try lighter than normal pressure with the lever cap, but no fighting it - I'm convinced that there are two things that break the tips of lever caps:
1) beginners who have trouble with a plane and think "it just needs to be tighter, and then it'll work"
2) people who have always loosened a cap screw with the lever cap and when they pick up a plane that's rusted or suffered disuse or overzealous tightening, they're using the lever cap no matter what

I've never chipped one. I did once have an ohio tool plane that was chipped in the center, and same with a stanley 5 1/2, which was a pain because it was one of the early ones with a narrower lever cap. Both of them had lever caps that worked fine, but if you want to find a way to make it difficult to sell a stanley type plane, chip the lever cap or break one of the handles - you're better off parting the entire plane out once you get to that.


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## Ttrees (28 Aug 2021)

Are you referring to the cast metal or the nickel coating when you are talking about chipping David?
I have three big flathead screwdrivers, so one is always kept close to my stones.
The other two being handy persuaders kept in the toolbox.
I can't see why anyone would bother using the lever cap in the first place, surely you should have all the tools you need, or should I say "like" to have close at hand.
Suppose that's just me though, as I tend to loose things if I don't keep on top of it.

Tom


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## JobandKnock (28 Aug 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I can't see why anyone would bother using the lever cap in the first place, surely you should have all the tools you need, or should I say "like" to have close at hand.


In the past I've seen the lever cap used often enough when the cap iron needed to be taken off - it's more a matter of how much weight you can physically carry than anything else. Done it myself, too, on the odd occasion before now


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## D_W (28 Aug 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Are you referring to the cast metal or the nickel coating when you are talking about chipping David?
> I have three big flathead screwdrivers, so one is always kept close to my stones.
> The other two being handy persuaders kept in the toolbox.
> I can't see why anyone would bother using the lever cap in the first place, surely you should have all the tools you need, or should I say "like" to have close at hand.
> ...



The ones I've seen that were chipped were all older - brownish cast from age, but not plated types, just the types that were originally lacquered. 

I use the lever cap because it's always with the plane, it always works, and it kind of encourages me to not to overtighten things. If an iron and cap iron are slipping on each other (sometimes happens on wooden planes), then it's a good idea to use 220 sandpaper or something and sand some light cross scratches on the iron and cap perpendicular to their length.

I used to have three screwdrivers in my sharpening bench, but I gave one away (the LV cap iron thingy shaped like a knob), still have the LN one somewhere (someone gave it to me as a gift) and the other was a husky (home depot) stubby screw driver with a long handle (the most practical of the three because the blade isn't so fat). I couldn't tell you where it is as all of my current metal planes fit (and maybe by chance, they all have plated lever caps and no chipping). Millers falls maybe comes to mind as a plane where the lever cap didn't fit and I found that unrewarding!!


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