# What ideas have you had for reducing Electricity consumption



## johnny (7 Sep 2022)

I thought it might be useful to have a sort of think tank of ideas on how we can become more energy efficient in our homes this Winter. 
We have become so energy reliant and wasteful over the past few decades. Back in the early 60's our house was one of the first in our street to have central heating installed. How did we manage back then with so few electrical appliances .
Can we perhaps re-learn something from how our Grand parents coped


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## redefined_cycles (7 Sep 2022)

We've swapped all the bulbs already and the missus is constantly calling out the kids (and husband) to enaure to turn lights off asap. We're also hoping to wear more layers indoors during winter to have the heating on a lot less and usually. Another big one is energy escaping and if that can be done efficiently its a massive boost- still working on that but am currently doing up the loft. 

Had the trusses removed and extra purlins added and news joists going in - I'll be lining it with the volcanic rockwool where appropriate and still wondering whether I want the loft floor lined with insulation or just the rafters (properly). Losing heat upwards is a massive loss to any house I believe so I'm sure it'll save alot in the long run.

We've discussed putting the shower out of action but the missus convinced me that showers are actually cheaper if we were to use it properly. So currently all working on turning it off during soaping/scrubbing and also reducing showering times to as close to mins as poss. At some point in the future I'm also hoping to look at the idea of putting a jacket onto the house but I'm sure it'll be expensive so not explored the idea yet. However, If I were to learn to do it myself it'd save a good few tons of money!

Good thread and thanks for opening. Looking forward to ideas to reduce wastage...


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## Marcusthehat (7 Sep 2022)

I cannot believe that people do NOT turn the shower off during the soaping and scrubbing phase.
I would however need to insulate the roofspace better, mea culpa, sigh.
And in response to sideways(below), we never owned nor ran a tumble drier, horrible energy guzzling thngs that they are. Nor was the washing machine ever run on a daily basis, full loads only.


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## Sideways (7 Sep 2022)

Lo tech (cheap to buy) tumble dryers are wasteful and expensive to run.
We've experimented with using a storage cupboard (about the size of our airing cupboard) for drying with a portable dehumidifier. It works well. Clothes are dry in a few hours. You see how many jugs of water you take out. And once they are dry the dh stops, unlike a tumbler which will happily carry on cooking clothes after they are dry.







Litre jug, I remembered to check just in time


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## Noel (7 Sep 2022)

redefined_cycles said:


> We've swapped all the bulbs already and the missus is constantly calling out the kids (and husband) to enaure to turn lights off asap. We're also hoping to wear more layers indoors during winter to have the heating on a lot less and usually. Another big one is energy escaping and if that can be done efficiently its a massive boost- still working on that but am currently doing up the loft.
> 
> Had the trusses removed and extra purlins added and news joists going in - I'll be lining it with the volcanic rockwool where appropriate and still wondering whether I want the loft floor lined with insulation or just the rafters (properly). Losing heat upwards is a massive loss to any house I believe so I'm sure it'll save alot in the long run.
> 
> ...


Do the rafters AND the loft floor, as you say, worth it in the long run.

Buy a new kettle? : )


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## sawtooth-9 (7 Sep 2022)

Knit a jumper and turn the switch off.
Dress in layers.
But failing all else - shared body warmth does work !


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## clogs (7 Sep 2022)

we binned all the standard bulbs for LED's.....we actually leave it by the centralised bin's and those that need can take it....
some of the wall lights had high watt halogen strip bulbs.....converted outside halogen flood light to LED's....
Water solar heating was the biggestsingle saver....
as the white goods fail we buy the high buzz unit's.....
she's now looking towards one of those air fryer's.....?????
plus on a house clearance we was given a table top oven with 2 hobs.....
she cooks in the smaller oven now even cakes.....can see the big oven going.....
*the biggest saving was getting rid of the* *kids*......
plus, all year we collect wood from the bins inc wrecked pallets...this get's mixed with the Olive wood for the heating in winter....
plus we often get useful bits of hard wood from furniture....


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## Doug71 (7 Sep 2022)

I have always been careful with these things so don't really think there is much I can change, I won't be taking the energy saving to the extreme like some people though.

For me there is nothing worse than a cold, dark house in the winter months to get you down. I will still be leaving the odd light on in the hallway etc to make the house feel lived in, a 4w bulb on for an hour or two in the evening won't make that much difference.

I remember ice on the inside of my bedroom windows when I was a child, we don't live like that anymore. I don't expect to sit watching tv in just my pants when it's when it's -10 outside but I won't be walking around a freezing cold house wearing 2 fleeces either.

If I feel an extra few minutes in the shower is needed to help relax and help ease those aching joints I do it.

I agree with @clogs that my biggest saving will be when the kids finally decide to move on


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## Fitzroy (7 Sep 2022)

We have electric underfloor heating in one part of the house, we used to keep it on toasty warm, found out that was costing £600/yr on old tariffs  Tumble drier uses lots (i like the drying cupboard idea with a dehumidifier that is genius). Kids spending hours in the shower, ditto others. Mother-in-law boiling a full kettle 3 times a day for a single cup of tea. Wife preheating the oven for 2hrs to make sure it's at an even temperature, we got a digital oven thermometer and demonstrated 20mins was more than adequate for her macarons. Our house lives at 18degC during the day and 14degC at night so can't go much colder. I'm gradually installing DGUs and draft proofing in the sash windows. Main issue is the house construction in Aberdeen is not conducive to wall insulation.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

redefined_cycles said:


> ... still wondering whether I want the loft floor lined with insulation or just the rafters (properly). Losing heat upwards is a massive loss to any house I believe so I'm sure it'll save alot in the long run.


Why would anyone insulate the rafters? The roof space should be ventilated so it would be pointless.


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## Sideways (7 Sep 2022)

Being interested in this I wrote a spreadsheet to do heatloss calcs for every room of the house.
Mimicking what energy surveyors and heating engineers might do.
When I added a line for ventilation - recommended at 2 air changes an hour for the whole house - the energy consumption increased massively, unaffordably.

My conclusion : yes you need ventilation, but a few strategic draughts might be enough for me !


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

Fitzroy said:


> Wife preheating the oven for 2hrs to make sure it's at an even temperature, we got a digital oven thermometer and demonstrated 20mins was more than adequate for her macarons.


Has she tried just waiting for the indicator light to go off when it reaches the desired temperature?


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> Being interested in this I wrote a spreadsheet to do heatloss calcs for every room of the house.
> Mimicking what energy surveyors and heating engineers might do.
> When I added a line for ventilation - recommended at 2 air changes an hour for the whole house - the energy consumption increased massively, unaffordably.
> 
> My conclusion : yes you need ventilation, but a few strategic draughts might be enough for me !


Isn't this the current building regs - seal the building up totally then fit vents?


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## Fitzroy (7 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Has she tried just waiting for the indicator light to go off when it reaches the desired temperature?


Apparently in baking circles that is a poor indicator of an even oven temperature. Our experimenting showed you needed about 5mins past the light going out, rather than 1hr and 45mins past it going out.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

Buy a Ninja Foodi 15 - 1. Cuts your electricity consumption by miles.


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## Sideways (7 Sep 2022)

Fitzroy said:


> (i like the drying cupboard idea with a dehumidifier that is genius)


Interestingly my daughter has been great about adopting this idea because it doesn't beat up her favorite clothes as much as the tumbler and is quicker than hanging them on a clothes horse and making the house damp.
How to sell the idea to others ....


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## redefined_cycles (7 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why would anyone insulate the rafters? The roof space should be ventilated so it would be pointless.


Thats kinda right Phil. As far as I've read in my construction book, If it's gonna have footfall up there (though it'll be mainly storage but overengineered if you see what I mean) and habitable then the best way is to insulate the roof space and across the partition/sides. But leave the ceiling space uninsulated so the heat can travel up into the loft space.

Obviously the insulation at the roof/rafters will need to have an air gap behind it to ensure airflow to stop condensation. Still working on thsi project but hoping to get it all right. Did ask a couple of structural engineers to pay a visit and draw me some plans but it seems they're either so busy or it's too small a job. Removing the trusses was done with general structural engineer input and by a local builder (to a decent structural standard but as soon as he knew I'll be doing all the flooring/plasterboards/insulation etc myself he was particular in ensuring the added purlings/perlins weren't squared and straightened for the side walls/partitions.

Work in progress but I think if I get it right then I coupd make some insulation/heat savings (ie. energy savings via correct/quality inuslation and techniques).


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## Fitzroy (7 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> Being interested in this I wrote a spreadsheet to do heatloss calcs for every room of the house.
> Mimicking what energy surveyors and heating engineers might do.
> When I added a line for ventilation - recommended at 2 air changes an hour for the whole house - the energy consumption increased massively, unaffordably.
> 
> My conclusion : yes you need ventilation, but a few strategic draughts might be enough for me !


Any chance of a copy, I was about to build similar but easier to start from someone else's homework rather than a blank sheet! I'd come to a similar conclusion on air changes, I'd got to about 2kW of heating duty to manage said air changes. I think a forced air system with an inlet/outlet exchanger is the way forwards.


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## Sideways (7 Sep 2022)

I bought a single tabletop induction hob to try one out after getting our solar.
Our kitchen hob is gas.
A pan of water boils about 3x faster on the induction than it does even sitting on the big wok burner.
Food for thought as gas prices rise.


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## Spectric (7 Sep 2022)

Don't be fooled by smart meters, don't use dishwashers and tumble dryers plus ensure all lighting is LED.


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## Sideways (7 Sep 2022)

Fitzroy said:


> Any chance of a copy, I was about to build similar but easier to start from someone else's homework rather than a blank sheet! I'd come to a similar conclusion on air changes, I'd got to about 2kW of heating duty to manage said air changes. I think a forced air system with an inlet/outlet exchanger is the way forwards.


Sure, send me your email in a PM and I'll forward it after adding a few notes about how it's conceived.


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## Doug71 (7 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why would anyone insulate the rafters? The roof space should be ventilated so it would be pointless.



It depends if it's a warm roof or a cold roof.


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## niall Y (7 Sep 2022)

The main steps we have taken, are not using the tumble drier or the oven. We now use a Remoska to cook things like roast chicken. To supplement the washing line we installed a drying rack which makes use of the heat from our oil-fired Rayburn that is just on tick=over Also anything on stand-by, like the TV,,microwave, or computers, is turned off when not in use
The most significant saving has been the discovery of a fault in the ring main that serves part of the ground floor..With this faulty circuit out of the loop. our electricity consumption has significantly reduced.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Don't be fooled by smart meters, don't use dishwashers and tumble dryers plus ensure all lighting is LED.


I put a little plug in meter on my dishwasher, it uses about a unit per wash and that's not using preheated water and not on eco.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Besvic-Electricity-Consumption-Monitoring-Overload/dp/B08X4M7TX2/ref=asc_df_B08X4M7TX2/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&


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## Dibs-h (7 Sep 2022)

The kettle got swapped a few months ago - there's a thread on it somewhere here. That just leaves the 2 halogen bulbs in the kitchen extractor: they're on my list to change to to LED, but have to swap the driver out.

Got a few 8W LED bulkhead lights outside - looking to replace one (to start with) with an eyelid version and try out a 4W bulb and see how it looks.

The tumble dryer is a heat pump version so is more efficient than many but the the new pulley washing line is up - so making that the default option as opposed to the tumble dryer.


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## Thingybob (7 Sep 2022)

Ok thinking cap time . You have a bath ,shower ,wash the pots ,dish washer ,washing machine what about all the heat that is in the water it goes down the grid so i was thinking good heat exchanger seperate storage tank then reintroduce the warmed water back into the hot water system it would take less power to heat back up to your normal hot water temp . Ok combi boilers need a little thinking out but must be possible lets hear some negatives and positives


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

The light outside my front door is on a PIR and is only a 2w bulb - it's surprising when it's dark how bright it is.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

I have seven of these in different rooms (two in the kitchen) 


14W CCT Adjustable LED Bulkhead - IP65 | Knightsbridge (BT14ACT)



Other sources available. They throw quite a good light and are only 14w.


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## Fitzroy (7 Sep 2022)

Thingybob said:


> Ok thinking cap time . You have a bath ,shower ,wash the pots ,dish washer ,washing machine what about all the heat that is in the water it goes down the grid so i was thinking good heat exchanger seperate storage tank then reintroduce the warmed water back into the hot water system it would take less power to heat back up to your normal hot water temp . Ok combi boilers need a little thinking out but must be possible lets hear some negatives and positives








Waste Water Heat Recovery Systems - Buy online


We are Waste Water Heat Recovery (WWHR) experts. We have a range of products in stock suitable for both flats and houses. Speak to us to find the best unit for your requirements.




thecodestore.co.uk


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## clogs (7 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe
her indoors is looking at the same cooker....
r they really that good....?
I know u only heat up a tiny space.....


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

I ride the bus to work when I go to work. When the spouse isn't here, which is sometimes not often enough, i cut the heat back and only heat or cool part of the house, and I shower in about two minutes. 

Multifaceted reasons more than just energy use or climate change - more like "am I really better off or happier pigging things than not?" the answer is no.


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## Sideways (7 Sep 2022)

I wonder how much heat is lost through the bottom of a bath tub ? Soaking out the aches in hot water is priceless. It might stay warm longer if I used a can of spray foam underneath


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## Togalosh (7 Sep 2022)

I had a victoriana terrace with the cold wind whistling up through the floorboards, chilling my feet, which the central heating couldn't do anything about. If it were just me I'd have lifted the floorboards & installed ridgid insulation boards between the rafters & 300mm down the walls. However that wasn't an option so I spent a weekend on my back under the floorboards stapling up multifoil 'blankets'. It really did help but I didn't get to feel the full benefit as we moved out before I could finish the understairs section. I glued foam 300mm boards to the walls too.

I was told by a professional that insulating the footings of buildings on the outside with thick polystyrene stopped a lot of the thermal bridging of the cold ground.

I cut a square out of the floorboards & fitted an insulated hatch where below I stored our drinks & sealed/ bagged up fruit & veg etc which kept everything chilled enough for me but pre-cooled things that needed to go in the fridge at a later date.

Also there is a way to triple glaze your windows by making frames & stretching plastic sheeting over them (in the same manner as an artist's canvass is) & placing them on the inside of your windows. This was done at my old workshop & it really does help.

Togs


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> I wonder how much heat is lost through the bottom of a bath tub ? Soaking out the aches in hot water is priceless. It might stay warm longer if I used a can of spray foam underneath



Often thought the same thing as a kid - back when people still took baths. Not out of conservation, but the desire to lay lazily in the tub without being rushed out by the cold water. 

Miser wisdom when I was a kid to allow anything with warm water to cool before "wasting the heat and letting it go down the drain".


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## sneggysteve (7 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I put a little plug in meter on my dishwasher, it uses about a unit per wash and that's not using preheated water and not on eco.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Besvic-Electricity-Consumption-Monitoring-Overload/dp/B08X4M7TX2/ref=asc_df_B08X4M7TX2/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&


Got one of these yesterday - will be testing over weekend


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## Dibs-h (7 Sep 2022)

sneggysteve said:


> Got one of these yesterday - will be testing over weekend


I have a few of those - one is permanently in use: the fridge freezer. And 2 others - for checking the usage on things that pop into my head every know and then.

Where cheap as chips on a certain auction site.

Very useful gadgets.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

Other side comment - My office is in semi finished basement. But office is a loosely used term. I have a table and two desks set up. Area is carpeted but winter temperature can be around 62F. Not a problem in short term, but if you work at a desk most of the day, you can start to get stiff fingers and shivers.

I got a lot of grief from my spouse about installing a split or something for the basement area to heat and cool, which - fine - that's energy efficient, but the head is below the unit which I don't love. It's supported, though -the units are supposedly fine with it. But why cool and heat the whole area to change the temperature 8 or 10 degrees?

I put a heating pad on my chair. It uses about 40 watts. I like it better than a slightly warmer room - it feels good to sit on it. The worst thing that could happen is that you find you don't like it and then do something more expensive.


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## Spectric (7 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> I wonder how much heat is lost through the bottom of a bath tub


If it is not free standing then why not get some of that two pack expanding foam that boat builders use and fill up under the bath so it sits in a mass of insulation.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> Phil Pascoe
> her indoors is looking at the same cooker....
> r they really that good....?
> I know u only heat up a tiny space.....


Just about the only things they don't do is deep fry and sous vide, though apparently the American market ones do sous vide but don't prove bread. They come with basic accessories and any extras although not cheap are good quality. Good for tough meats - you can part pressure cook then air fry or air roast. You can slow cook, dehydrate, prove and bake bread (better than a domestic oven) etc... They are much more energy efficient than a cooker as well.
I put a meter on mine for bread - a loaf takes one unit, 30p at the moment - so unless I was to bake a few loaves at a time (which I then need freezer space for) it's cheaper. Four pasties would take less than twice that. Easy cleaning up, as well.


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## Thingybob (7 Sep 2022)

In my experiance under most baths there is boards missing large gaps round edges next to walls , When i was putting timber work in for refurbs i always re floorboarded under the bath and toilet or all floor area if in poor condition then expanding foam round all edges before skirting added, The plumber respected my work and did not hack at floorboards before fitting new bath leaving a draft free bathroom


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> If it is not free standing then why not get some of that two pack expanding foam that boat builders use and fill up under the bath so it sits in a mass of insulation.


I missed the chance here, but I insulated around the bath ( a 1200mm corner bath) in our old house - it was worthwhile. If you use 2 part foam ensure it's not restricted anywhere, though.


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## Sideways (7 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> If it is not free standing then why not get some of that two pack expanding foam that boat builders use and fill up under the bath so it sits in a mass of insulation.


It's going to have to come out for a bathroom makeover sometime in the next year or two so I don't want to fossilise it in place, but if I just use a can or spray foam over the bottom I doubt anything will rust out before it gets replaced (enamelled / pressed steel tub).


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

Why not use rockwool or glasswool?


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## ajs (7 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> If it is not free standing then why not get some of that two pack expanding foam that boat builders use and fill up under the bath so it sits in a mass of insulation.


Great until you have a leak or need to access the stopcocks for some other reason.


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## Flynnwood (7 Sep 2022)

niall Y said:


> The most significant saving has been the discovery of a fault in the ring main that serves part of the ground floor..With this faulty circuit out of the loop. our electricity consumption has significantly reduced.


@niall Y 
Could you explain a little more please? I'm not understanding this. What was happening?


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## Thingybob (7 Sep 2022)

ajs said:


> Great until you have a leak or need to access the stopcocks for some other reason.


Stopcock under a bath ?


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## Geebee (7 Sep 2022)

Just bought a new freezer.
I put one of the energy monitors on our old freezer and I have to admit I was shocked.

It never turned off and was always running, so guessing it never got cold enough. Did some calculations and it worked out at approx. 1500kwh a year.

New freezer is projected to cost 300kwh a year.

Guess it did well for being 20+ years old


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2022)

I got rid of two old fridge freezers and bought one new one.


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## baldkev (7 Sep 2022)

Im sure i posted this somewhere else a while back, but to save electric, see if one of your neighbours has an outside plug


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## Dibs-h (7 Sep 2022)

Geebee said:


> Just bought a new freezer.
> I put one of the energy monitors on our old freezer and I have to admit I was shocked.
> 
> It never turned off and was always running, so guessing it never got cold enough. Did some calculations and it worked out at approx. 1500kwh a year.
> ...


I crapped myself a my years back when I checked the consumption on our old fridge freezer - 52kwh in 2 weeks. New one got ordered a day later. Uses about 150kwh annually.


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## Jaydee (8 Sep 2022)

Re bath insulation. I‘ve recently refurbed the bathroom and when installing the bath I glued that bubble wrap type insulation to the underside. I also replaced damaged floorboards and sprayfoamed any gaps around pipes and floor boards. The Mrs reports the bath stays lovely and warm and doesn’t need a hot water top up.


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## Ozi (8 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> we binned all the standard bulbs for LED's.....we actually leave it by the centralised bin's and those that need can take it....
> some of the wall lights had high watt halogen strip bulbs.....converted outside halogen flood light to LED's....
> Water solar heating was the biggestsingle saver....
> as the white goods fail we buy the high buzz unit's.....
> ...


*HOW*!!!!! Did you get rid of the kids?


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## GuitardoctorW7 (8 Sep 2022)

johnny said:


> I thought it might be useful to have a sort of think tank of ideas on how we can become more energy efficient in our homes this Winter.
> We have become so energy reliant and wasteful over the past few decades. Back in the early 60's our house was one of the first in our street to have central heating installed. How did we manage back then with so few electrical appliances .
> Can we perhaps re-learn something from how our Grand parents coped


This may sound stupid but I've been doing it for quite a few years now when cooking.... If you're gonna cook vegetables, bring them to the boil and then turn the gas/electric off. Carry on preparing the rest of the meal and the said veg should be nicely done by the time you need them. if not give them a gentle boost for ` couple of minutes. Also works with big pans of soup etc and you can cut the energy consumption down by half at least.
Awaiting flack


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## Suffolk Brian (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Buy a Ninja Foodi 15 - 1. Cuts your electricity consumption by miles.


Very interested in one of these - seem to be all the rage at the moment - but the initial cost is eye watering. How long before you get you investment back?


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## NormanB (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why would anyone insulate the rafters? The roof space should be ventilated so it would be pointless.


Converting a ‘cold roof’ to a ‘warm roof’ is a good idea but only if you intend to use the space for habitation.


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## Sideways (8 Sep 2022)

GuitardoctorW7 said:


> This may sound stupid but I've been doing it for quite a few years now when cooking.... If you're gonna cook vegetables, bring them to the boil and then turn the gas/electric off. Carry on preparing the rest of the meal and the said veg should be nicely done by the time you need them.


We eat rice regularly and it cooks the same way. Rinse, drain, measure the water, put on a lid, bring to the boil and then just let it stand for 25 30 minutes. Perfect. So your idea sounds good to me.
But you can't boost rice at the end, it goes mushy.


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## NormanB (8 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> Being interested in this I wrote a spreadsheet to do heatloss calcs for every room of the house.
> Mimicking what energy surveyors and heating engineers might do.
> When I added a line for ventilation - recommended at 2 air changes an hour for the whole house - the energy consumption increased massively, unaffordably.
> 
> My conclusion : yes you need ventilation, but a few strategic draughts might be enough for me !


Doing the heat loss calculations is a a necessary step in understanding what is going on BUT it is a theoretical application and not reality. You could with a lot more effort calculate actual heat loss if you monitor outside temp, maintain and monitor your rooms at your desired temp and then calculate energy consumed to maintain the status quo for each ambient outside temp say, from -2C to 15C. Takes a long time and instruments (I have weather compensation on my boiler plus a slack handful of blue toothed temperature/humidity sensors which I place at strategic points around the house. I have not got a smart meter so rely on taking gas meter readings daily. It’s all ‘handraulic’ and it would be nice to have some sort of data logger to capture the data automatically (but not worth splashing out for one house).


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## GuitardoctorW7 (8 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> We eat rice regularly and it cooks the same way. Rinse, drain, measure the water, put on a lid, bring to the boil and then just let it stand for 25 30 minutes. Perfect. So your idea sounds good to me.
> But you can't boost rice at the end, it goes mushy.


I cook rice with the absorption method which is basically the same as you. Wash the starch off thoroughly. 2.5 parts water to rice, bring to a boil. Cover/ simmer on the lowest heat for 8 mins then leave for 10 but never removing the lid beforehand. I usually get perfect fluffy rice although it's now a no no for diabetes .


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## Sideways (8 Sep 2022)

NormanB said:


> Doing the heat loss calculations is a a necessary step in understanding what is going on BUT it is a theoretical application and not reality. You could with a lot more effort calculate actual heat loss if you monitor outside temp, maintain and monitor your rooms at your desired temp and then calculate energy consumed to maintain the status quo for each ambient outside temp say, from -2C to 15C. Takes a long time and instruments (I have weather compensation on my boiler plus a slack handful of blue toothed temperature/humidity sensors which I place at strategic points around the house. I have not got a smart meter so rely on taking gas meter readings daily. It’s all ‘handraulic’ and it would be nice to have some sort of data logger to capture the data automatically (but not worth splashing out for one house).


 
That's a step too far for me !
I can write a sophisticated enough spreadsheet and tune stuff like indoor, outdoor temperatures, day and night hours, seasonal variation, ventilation, etc but real time logging is too costly or time consuming for me except for the one sensorpush temp logger in the garden.

The advantage of doing theory is that it does point you towards where most of the heat's going so you can spend your money on what will make the most impact.
Oh, and help me decide how much to increase the last few original, undersize radiators when I swap them out


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## rogxwhit (8 Sep 2022)

Suffolk Brian said:


> but the initial cost is eye watering


Oh, come on, you could get two for the price of a single Mafell jigsaw ...


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## Jester129 (8 Sep 2022)

Turned the water temp. on the boiler down by 5 degrees, hardly noticed it. Also turned the flow rate down a little.
The boiler is also a top of the range one, really economical.


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## Jacob (8 Sep 2022)

4" Kingspan (on inside) all external walls with studding and air gaps to the plaster board.
2" in all reveals up to the window and door frames.
9" minimum Kingspan in roof/top ceilings also with 4" rockwool were possible
2" Kingspan under floor tight up to the boards, plus 4" rockwool in places
All sealed as far as possible with sticky tape, foam, mastic as far as possible.
All wiring/plumbing inside the external shell with no holes through as far as possible.
Also we burn all waste wood, sawdust, cardboard in two multifuels for direct heat.
Heavy curtains and /or heavy roman blinds to all windows and external doors.
Draught brushes to nearly all the doors.
Extractor fan over cooker not to outside but recirculates through fat catcher grille and carbon filters. n.b. you can wash these in sugar soap solution instead of replacing them.
Thick underwear. and down jackets as required. 
Try to use the microwave more.


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## niall Y (8 Sep 2022)

Flynnwood said:


> @niall Y
> Could you explain a little more please? I'm not understanding this. What was happening?


Well, the full story, is that though we compared our electricity consumption, with friends and family, we never could work out why it was that we were consistently using more power than anyone else. This was highlighted when we had a smart meter installed, and our overnight consumption seemed a lot higher than it should be - even after we took into account the standing charge that is added around 12am.

Fast forward to earlier in the year when we were subject to a series of power cuts, one after the other. After the final one we could not restore power to one of the downstairs ring-mains without its fuse blowing. This was traced to a fault in the cabling run in the concrete floor in the rear extension.

Since isolating this, our overnight power use has reduced noticeably. I can only assume that the cable insulation had degraded over time finally resulting in its shorting out. And, before this, that it had placed a small continuous load on the circuit.
The build quality of the extension is not great and there is some dampness in the concrete, which might well have added to the mix.


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## Spectric (8 Sep 2022)

Well you could dig out the sandals, get some candles and takeup traditional woodworking where no electricity is needed !


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## 1steven (8 Sep 2022)

We still have an old electric meter and this Stanley (oil fired) our electric consumption is 6-8 units a day. Cannot cut back anymore.


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## Stuart Moffat (8 Sep 2022)

I was asked by MIL to change the bulb in a Bosch oven that is about 14 months old. Was astonished to find that it was a halogen bulb.

I’ve still got a couple of halogens in a cooker hood, but can’t find any leds with small enough bulbs to be able to put the glass cover back on afterwards. Either they’ve got to get smaller or I’ve got to do some radical re-engineering.


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## Terry - Somerset (8 Sep 2022)

Understanding where the energy is used is intellectually interesting but only worthwhile if there is a realistic prospect of doing something about it. Personally my main concern are those old appliances (TVs, freezers etc) consume excessive amounts on standby.

An example - recent EPC certificate. Predictably useful suggestions - eg: save £57pa by installing floor installation at a cost of £4-6000. I'll need to live to 180 to make that worth doing!

So realistically and intuitively:

*Basic behavioral changes *which cost nothing to implement - just self-discipline. Shorter showers, don't overfill the kettle, make sure dishwasher and washing machine have full load, turn off unnecessary lights, etc.

*Most domestic energy costs relate to space heating*. Simple no cost solutions - turn off heating in unused rooms, temperature down 2C, wear thermals etc. 

There are low cost options which most can implement - draft proofing, loft insulation, thermostatic radiator valves, induction replacing gas hob, replace energy hungry old appliances etc.

Higher cost items will inevitably have a longer payback and may be unaffordable for many or simply not feasible. Triple glazing, wall insulation, heat pumps, wood burners, PVs on roof etc. 

*Other initiatives *involve rather more fundamental changes and may be somewhat idiosyncratic - change diet to incorporate food requiring less cooking, change cooking processes (it costs more electricity to cook oven chips than the chips cost), remove half the light fittings, 

The easy, no cost and relatively cheap make good sense anyway. Higher cost options need some confidence that (a) high energy costs are here to stay, and (b) sufficiently deep pockets to make it affordable.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> I was asked by MIL to change the bulb in a Bosch oven that is about 14 months old. Was astonished to find that it was a halogen bulb.


Ther bulb on my Zanussi went about seven years ago ...


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## Spectric (8 Sep 2022)

Terry has hit it on the head, a change in behavior which may be better understood by looking at how we lived forty years ago to now. Today people want to wear very little indoors yet be warm and cosy, well put cloths on and reduce the heating needed. We have gone down this route from moving the toilet indoors and throwing out the tin baths and having a bathroom to this newest craze where people all want to shieete in the bedroom by having so called on suites and increasing the demand on hot water. Many people wear something once and then into the wash, or in cases of vanity they throw it out because they cannot be seen in anything more than once and it is these sorts of living ideas that create so many issues. Yes change the way you live and more energy can be saved but how many will start bleeting on about there rights and freedoms.


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## redefined_cycles (8 Sep 2022)

Aftwr this thread and some calculations it seemed (if I got them right) there's at least £50 saving to be had with going to the 20w led tube light for the kitchen. That's from the 58w Osram already installed.

If it helps, I got the plug and play tube from Philips/Screwfix. Still showing as an energy rating of F as opposed to their higher grade tube which is a C or E. After it not working and some soul searching I decided to tackle the problem. 

After the below vid my bike tools came out to shear some wires and remove the eletrical ballast box - so hopefully some extra savings without that. Thankfully everything is up and running now and the kitchen seems brighter too. Hopefully no more being forced to turn the tiny light on when sat in kitchen!


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## Thingybob (8 Sep 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> I was asked by MIL to change the bulb in a Bosch oven that is about 14 months old. Was astonished to find that it was a halogen bulb.
> 
> I’ve still got a couple of halogens in a cooker hood, but can’t find any leds with small enough bulbs to be able to put the glass cover back on afterwards. Either they’ve got to get smaller or I’ve got to do some radical re-engineering.


Replaced mine with GU10 bulbs and fittings LED


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## Fitzroy (8 Sep 2022)

NormanB said:


> Doing the heat loss calculations is a a necessary step in understanding what is going on BUT it is a theoretical application and not reality. You could with a lot more effort calculate actual heat loss if you monitor outside temp, maintain and monitor your rooms at your desired temp and then calculate energy consumed to maintain the status quo for each ambient outside temp say, from -2C to 15C. Takes a long time and instruments (I have weather compensation on my boiler plus a slack handful of blue toothed temperature/humidity sensors which I place at strategic points around the house. I have not got a smart meter so rely on taking gas meter readings daily. It’s all ‘handraulic’ and it would be nice to have some sort of data logger to capture the data automatically (but not worth splashing out for one house).


I have an old gas meter and watched a few cool vids of folks using rasberry PIs and old mouses to monitor them. Looked cool and quite accessible but too much other stuff on my plate at the moment.


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## johna.clements (8 Sep 2022)

D_W said:


> Other side comment - My office is in semi finished basement. But office is a loosely used term. I have a table and two desks set up. Area is carpeted but winter temperature can be around 62F. Not a problem in short term, but if you work at a desk most of the day, you can start to get stiff fingers and shivers.
> 
> I got a lot of grief from my spouse about installing a split or something for the basement area to heat and cool, which - fine - that's energy efficient, but the head is below the unit which I don't love. It's supported, though -the units are supposedly fine with it. But why cool and heat the whole area to change the temperature 8 or 10 degrees?
> 
> I put a heating pad on my chair. It uses about 40 watts. I like it better than a slightly warmer room - it feels good to sit on it. The worst thing that could happen is that you find you don't like it and then do something more expensive.


Why not make some studding out of the lightest timber you can get away with and face it with something thin like 6mm ply. Enclose the office, Curtain for door. Maybe a perspex window so you do not feel like you are in a timber tent. Will not keep all the heat in but greatly reduce the power needed to keep it at a reasonable temperature.


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## D_W (8 Sep 2022)

This may sound dumb, but it's semi finished (though full), meaning painted block and the floor is carpeted and it's dry. I like having the open space. 

It's a mental thing - working sitting still in a closed space all day makes me batty and I hope to not have anything permanent there if we are required to return to office work 5 days a week. 

i think neat and organized people will feel different - the desire to compartmentalize and "make more homey" with the space is there. My only issue was slowly getting stiff fingers at 62F during the day, and the first solution, to use a space heater under the desk, resulted in hot feet or hot legs. I remembered something from a permies site (not something I'm into) where there was an article about heating yourself and then later again saw something from a physician or researcher who said something about supplementing heat to people who are very cold or in trouble more efficiently through hands or hands and head rather than an entire body. 

Dumb story, I know. 40 watts of heating pad is far more accommodating than 1100 watts of localized heat and I like it better than sitting in the upstairs (72F) the same way someone would like a heated seat in a car, I guess - i notice the effect the researchers talk about. if you have cold hands and heat another part of your body, you won't have cold hands, just as you can heat your hands if they're not doing anything and warm your entire body. It'd probably be annoying to have something hot on our heads.


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## Spectric (8 Sep 2022)

Or you could buy one of those one piece teddy bear suits that are worn by people in cold storage facilities .


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## MikeJhn (8 Sep 2022)

Everything is so expensive the payback time puts most of them out of the question for us oldies, PV panels would be just throwing money away, so would an electric car, my thirty year old oil fired boiler is 86% efficient (verified with a Testo gas analyser) I have changed all the bulbs in the house to LED's and the ones outside, but thanks to this thread I had never thought about the hob extract or the oven light, will have to look at those.


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## 1steven (8 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Or you could buy one of those one piece teddy bear suits that are worn by people in cold storage facilities .


Have one for my workshop


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## Dave Moore (8 Sep 2022)

redefined_cycles said:


> Thats kinda right Phil. As far as I've read in my construction book, If it's gonna have footfall up there (though it'll be mainly storage but overengineered if you see what I mean) and habitable then the best way is to insulate the roof space and across the partition/sides. But leave the ceiling space uninsulated so the heat can travel up into the loft space.
> 
> Obviously the insulation at the roof/rafters will need to have an air gap behind it to ensure airflow to stop condensation. Still working on thsi project but hoping to get it all right. Did ask a couple of structural engineers to pay a visit and draw me some plans but it seems they're either so busy or it's too small a job. Removing the trusses was done with general structural engineer input and by a local builder (to a decent structural standard but as soon as he knew I'll be doing all the flooring/plasterboards/insulation etc myself he was particular in ensuring the added purlings/perlins weren't squared and straightened for the side walls/partitions.
> 
> Work in progress but I think if I get it right then I coupd make some insulation/heat savings (ie. energy savings via correct/quality inuslation and techniques).


Hi,
Latest building regs , looks like insulation is with Celotex or similar and all the edges sealed with Gapotape. It’s not cheap but seals the edges brilliantly. I’ve just done the stepsons vaulted ceiling.
Regards,
Dave


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## ajs (8 Sep 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> I was asked by MIL to change the bulb in a Bosch oven that is about 14 months old. Was astonished to find that it was a halogen bulb.


There are difficulties with replacements. LEDs are fundamentally incompatible with high temperature operation since semiconductors have inherent temperature limits. Can't immediately see a fundamental restriction for florescents but you couldn't use a compact fluorescent for the same reason - the ballast is itself semiconductor electronics. Flourescent with an external ballast somewhere cool which is actually similar to strip lighting - I don't see why not, but you need specialist tubes, I'm not aware of any for high temperature operation.


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## gcusick (8 Sep 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> I was asked by MIL to change the bulb in a Bosch oven that is about 14 months old. Was astonished to find that it was a halogen bulb.
> 
> I’ve still got a couple of halogens in a cooker hood, but can’t find any leds with small enough bulbs to be able to put the glass cover back on afterwards. Either they’ve got to get smaller or I’ve got to do some radical re-engineering.


The problem with using LEDs in oven lamps is the operating temperature range. This will genrally be in the region of -25 - 85C, with a maximum junction temperature of perhaps 100C. Standard ovens operate at up to ~250C, with self-cleaning cycles going to higher temperatures.


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## MARK.B. (8 Sep 2022)

The light in our oven stopped working a few years ago and I never got round to replacing it , oven works just the same as it always did and there is enough light in the kitchen to be able to see what is happening inside the oven without it. The one's in the fridge and the freezer are pointless unless you happen to be stumbling around in the dark for a midnight snack. Standby light on the telly why bother what is it standing by to do, turn it on a second or two faster , if you can see a picture then its on if not it's off. All our outside lights bar one are small solar powered units with timers and built in pir's , they give plenty of light where needed for free and work just as well in the darker winter months, The one at the front of the garage is a more powerful 10watt mains powered led so the love of my life knows just what she has backed into again


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2022)

I wonder if one of the resident electrical boffins could give us a clue what proportion of the power used on standby is actually used by the light? I doubt it's much.


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## ajs (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I wonder if one of the resident electrical boffins could give us a clue what proportion of the power used on standby is actually used by the light? I doubt it's much.


A standard LED will be somewhere around a couple of volts at 10mA or so. Likely driven from a 3.3V logic supply via a limiting resistor so 33mW for the pair. That comes to 0.289 units a year. Of course the losses in the power supply and even minimal circuitry to respond to the remote will dwarf that, a couple of watts is typical standby power draw for a modern TV.

The light does have a valuable purpose if the TV doesn't appear to be working, it confirms there is power if there is no response to the remote. Blinking is often the first indication it has acknowledged the remote, especially since modern TVs take a second or two to display anything on screen or output sound.


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## mikej460 (8 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Don't be fooled by smart meters, don't use dishwashers and tumble dryers plus ensure all lighting is LED.


The most energy efficient dishwashers use far less energy than hand washing. We have a heat pump tumble drier which is very energy efficient albeit expensive to buy so I've now put up a new washing line at my wife's request, but towels are still tumble dried as a good exfoliation after a shower doesn't appeal.

It's taken me 30 years to convince my wife that she really doesn't need to fill the kettle for one or two cups of tea/coffee.

Be careful on which LEDs you buy as some use a lot of energy - if they're hot to touch they are costing you too much money.

I'm dry-lining every room we renovate, using Superquilt, counter-battened with 50mm PIR Plasterboard which works very well. My only regret is not having triple glazing windows instead of double glazing 14 years ago.

We are a two oven family but now about to buy an air frier as we will save electricity from the shorter warm up and cooking time. There are times when we put an oven on for 2 hours just to cook one or two baked potatoes or one small quiche etc.


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## Marcusthehat (8 Sep 2022)

About 1000 litres of kero has lasted us over a 12 month, for a relatively large dwelling, but we burn a significent amount of "free" firewood, and our electric is about £800.00 per year, mind you running 3 freezers prob dont help! Plus me occassionally "footering" in the shed with a welder and compressor.
Really must insulate the roofspace better, its got 6 or 7" of glass fiber between the joists and then floored with chipboard throughout, so I was thinking of insulating betwwn the rafters, but not sure how.


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## Thingybob (8 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Or you could buy one of those one piece teddy bear suits that are worn by people in cold storage facilities .


That would look good on a video conference " Spectric i dont think your taking your job seriously"


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## mikej460 (8 Sep 2022)

Marcusthehat said:


> About 1000 litres of kero has lasted us over a 12 month, for a relatively large dwelling, but we burn a significent amount of "free" firewood, and our electric is about £800.00 per year, mind you running 3 freezers prob dont help! Plus me occassionally "footering" in the shed with a welder and compressor.
> Really must insulate the roofspace better, its got 6 or 7" of glass fiber between the joists and then floored with chipboard throughout, so I was thinking of insulating betwwn the rafters, but not sure how.


As I understand it you can have a 'cold roof' where the joists are insulated or a 'warm roof' where the rafters are insulated. The problem with having both is condensation build up.


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## Thingybob (8 Sep 2022)

Thingybob said:


> Replaced mine with GU10 bulbs and fittings LED


Sorry did not read corectly thought you said oven extractor silly me


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## Just4Fun (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I wonder if one of the resident electrical boffins could give us a clue what proportion of the power used on standby is actually used by the light? I doubt it's much.


I am far from an electrical boffin so get your pinch of salt ready ...

A few years ago I went through an exercise of turning everything off then turning things back on 1-by-1 to see what effect each appliance had on our usage. It wasn't until some time later that I realised I had forgotten to include the outside lights in this exercise. On standby they obviously don't use enough energy to have registered on the whole house gizme I was using.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

mikej460 said:


> My only regret is not having triple glazing windows instead of double glazing 14 years ago.


I keep reading how little difference they make, but wonder why if that's the case it's used throughout Northern Countries. According to a long time experienced window fitter I spoke to, the main problem with triple glazing in this country is that the frames produced here aren't deep enough, so the panels made to fit them haven't sufficient gaps.

My mother had a house built 44 years ago - the architect advised her not to have double glazing as it wasn't worth the extra cost for what it saved. I was amazed at the time.


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## Stuart1953 (9 Sep 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> I was asked by MIL to change the bulb in a Bosch oven that is about 14 months old. Was astonished to find that it was a halogen bulb.
> 
> I’ve still got a couple of halogens in a cooker hood, but can’t find any leds with small enough bulbs to be able to put the glass cover back on afterwards. Either they’ve got to get smaller or I’ve got to do some radical re-engineering.



I had the same problem with a fridge bulb, but after an exhaustive search on Amazon, after using callipers to measure the old bulb I finally found led equivalents.


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## Suffolk Brian (9 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Oh, come on, you could get two for the price of a single Mafell jigsaw ...


My needs and finances are about the DeWalt - other brands are available - level. Seriously, I am happy to do my bit. But if you consider the environmental cost in the manufacture of some of these products, where do you draw the line? At my (very low) skill level, I get a better straight line cut with an “ordinary” saw, for which I think I paid about £7 in Screwfix. Plus the exercise keeps me warm, and I didn’t use any electricity.


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## GuitardoctorW7 (9 Sep 2022)

mikej460 said:


> The most energy efficient dishwashers use far less energy than hand washing. We have a heat pump tumble drier which is very energy efficient albeit expensive to buy so I've now put up a new washing line at my wife's request, but towels are still tumble dried as a good exfoliation after a shower doesn't appeal.
> 
> It's taken me 30 years to convince my wife that she really doesn't need to fill the kettle for one or two cups of tea/coffee.
> 
> ...


I pierce jacket potatoes all over with a serving fork then blitz them in the microwave for 10 mins before putting into a hot oven for 30 mins. I get pretty good results


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## Just4Fun (9 Sep 2022)

johnny said:


> Can we perhaps re-learn something from how our Grand parents coped


I quite like the idea of a hay box for slow cooking. I have some rigid wall insulation that should make a well-insulated box. I am just a bit unsure what is the melting point of the insulation I have.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

Stuart1953 said:


> I had the same problem with a fridge bulb, but after an exhaustive search on Amazon, after using callipers to measure the old bulb I finally found led equivalents.


Yes, but the problem with the oven the high temperature.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

GuitardoctorW7 said:


> I pierce jacket potatoes all over with a serving fork then blitz them in the microwave for 10 mins before putting into a hot oven for 30 mins. I get pretty good results


Likewise.
I used to stick 4" nails through them before putting them in the oven.


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## Alex H (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Likewise.
> I used to stick 4" nails through them before putting them in the oven.


Doesn't that make them taste funny?


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

No, you do actually take them out after cooking.


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## okeydokey (9 Sep 2022)

Thats another way to get an iron supplement


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

We had some years ago a little folding aluminium device with iirc eight spikes for baking potatoes. Its purpose of course, besides being easy to lift out of the oven was to transmit the heat to the centre - and yes, it cut the cooking time noticeably. When it broke I used nails, of course a kebab skewer or similar would do the same.


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## mikej460 (9 Sep 2022)

Yes we use the aluminium spike device and it does reduce cooling time and perfect results. We prefer a crispy baked spud so the ultimate solution would be spiked spuds done in an air fryer.


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## mikej460 (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I keep reading how little difference they make, but wonder why if that's the case it's used throughout Northern Countries. According to a long time experienced window fitter I spoke to, the main problem with triple glazing in this country is that the frames produced here aren't deep enough, so the panels made to fit them haven't sufficient gaps.
> 
> My mother had a house built 44 years ago - the architect advised her not to have double glazing as it wasn't worth the extra cost for what it saved. I was amazed at the time.


I think there's good and bad double/triple glazing, you pays your money etc. We bought cheap to replace the single pane windows as it was all we could justify at the time.


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## rogxwhit (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> According to a long time experienced window fitter I spoke to, the main problem with triple glazing in this country is that the frames produced here aren't deep enough, so the panels made to fit them haven't sufficient gaps.


You wouldn't normally fit triple glazing to an existing window - you build (or buy) a frame that suits the triple glazing .... for most uk properties, it's a package deal.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> You wouldn't normally fit triple glazing to an existing window - you build (or buy) a frame that suits the triple glazing .... for most uk properties, it's a package deal.


I didn't mean fitting it to existing frames, the fitter made the point that new frames made in this Country are not designed for the like of 4 - 20 - 4 - 20 - 4 panels - which to be fully efficient they need to be, 20mm being the optimum gap, apparently. The panels are 4 - 9 - 4 - 9 - 4 or thereabouts to fit a standard frame, so little different thermally to a 4 - 20 - 4.

If you work out the figures between AA and C, the difference in insulation value is not as great as you'd suppose. I had two large windows done last summer and went for the best rated (I'd rather regret doing something than not doing something) - I winced at the price ....................I bet I'd wince a bit more if I got the quote now.


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## johnny (9 Sep 2022)

wow ! what an amazing response o my post ... my notifications are not working (story of my life ) 
There are some excellent ideas and practices here many of which we could all benefit from by incorporating them into our energy saving efforts. 

Before we installed our new combi CH boiler this year our old central heating and hot water cylinder system wouldn't produce hot water for washing up without also having the heating on .......(diverter valve issue) so we put a huge saucepan on the smallest gas hob with a close fitting lid and the lowest setting. It sat there all day and cost a negligible amount compared to boiling a kettle every hour for cups of tea and washing up. . 

The other problem it solved was having to wait up to 2x minutes for the boiler to heat the water and for the water to heat all the pipework from the boiler upstairs down to the kitchen sink tap . I am now thinking of installing a small electric instant hot water heater under the sink to save all that wasted energy every time we need some hot water at the sink. I'll need to do some comparative energy consumption calculations to see if its cost effective compared to using the combi.


Something many do not realise is the main benefit of triple glazing is the significant reduction in sound transmission. The larger the gap to the double glazed units the more effective the sound reduction is, 4-6" is ideal .If you live next to a busy road, a School, light industry or noisy neighbours ie dogs barking, loud music and kids screaming all day long. The sound reduction is simply life changing in terms of stress reduction alone.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

The first thing we noticed years ago when had double glazed French doors fitted was the noise reduction. The fitter said it was the first comment everyone made.

My neighbour has one of the hot water storage devices that holds something like a gallon so she doesn't boil a kettle n times a day for tea. I shall look into them.

We've started to boil the kettle if pans need washing rather than pulling hot water from the tank, so that'll save water and power by not leaving the pipework full of hot water to go cold. Water rates will go up, they are bound to.


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## Spectric (9 Sep 2022)

It's ok to look at the energy efficiency of double glazing but then why are so many people building houses with huge windows, it must be like living in a goldfish bowl. perhaps they are exhibitionist.


With double glazing you want warm edge spacer bars between the pains, black in color and not aluminium.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

I notice quite small newly built properties with windows that to me at least are much smaller than they should be, so I assume they're designed for energy efficiency, but conversely there are "luxury" houses going up everywhere that have huge glass frontages. Odd.


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## Chippyjoe (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I notice quite small newly built properties with windows that to me at least are much smaller than they should be, so I assume they're designed for energy efficiency, but conversely there are "luxury" houses going up everywhere that have huge glass frontages. Odd.



I have noticed that as well, wonder how they get on for fire escape purposes ?


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## Spectric (9 Sep 2022)

I just love that term "luxury houses" what a sales pitch to sell for a bigger profit. What is a luxury house, I expect something that is more about image than anything else and which will probably cost more to keep warm. Perhaps having big windows is really a statement that is saying I am wealthy enough to heat this house and the garden. Others like me just think what a dick, obviously no interest in our enviroment or the planet.


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## Thingybob (9 Sep 2022)

Suffolk Brian said:


> My needs and finances are about the DeWalt - other brands are available - level. Seriously, I am happy to do my bit. But if you consider the environmental cost in the manufacture of some of these products, where do you draw the line? At my (very low) skill level, I get a better straight line cut with an “ordinary” saw, for which I think I paid about £7 in Screwfix. Plus the exercise keeps me warm, and I didn’t use any electricity.


I have used a japanese hand saw for a number of years now and now find it easier to use and keep straight using the back stroke to cut


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## Thingybob (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> No, you do actually take them out after cooking.


Claw hammer or pincers


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## Spectric (9 Sep 2022)

I think we have a lot to learn from the Japanese when it comes to woodworking, pulling a saw to cut is really logical as it keeps the blade in tension. Our concept is like pushing string.


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## rogxwhit (9 Sep 2022)

johnny said:


> the main benefit of triple glazing is the significant reduction in sound transmission.


The first step to reduce sound transmission is to draught proof - sound waves pass through any gap.



johnny said:


> The larger the gap to the double glazed units the more effective the sound reduction is, 4-6" is ideal .


4" to 6" spacing ain't at all brilliant for thermal performance though - the internal convection currents see to that. 



Spectric said:


> warm edge spacer bars between the pains, black in color


Other colours are available ... grey's quite nice ...


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I think we have a lot to learn from the Japanese when it comes to woodworking, pulling a saw to cut is really logical as it keeps the blade in tension. Our concept is like pushing string.


As my wife discovered last week when she used my lovely little Nonpareil dovetail saw on a piece of damp 2" x 2" and put a kink in it.


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## Thingybob (9 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> You wouldn't normally fit triple glazing to an existing window - you build (or buy) a frame that suits the triple glazing .... for most uk properties, it's a package deal.


The only problem is the glazing in upvc is smaller due to larger frames so costs more to light rooms in the day (side windows on bays im thinking ) I used to build replacement frames in wood to fit double glazing using 50mmx50mm timber upvc is about 75 x60 so 50mm less light all round some side windows end up with less than 225 wide glass showing


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## Thingybob (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> As my wife discovered last week when she used my lovely little Nonpareil dovetail saw on a piece of damp 2" x 2" and put a kink in it.


Take the workshop key off her


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## rogxwhit (9 Sep 2022)

Thingybob said:


> upvc


Material of the devil. This is a woodworking channel!


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## Thingybob (9 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Material of the devil. This is a woodworking channel!


I used to get calls to my add in the local paper under Joiner "oh hello i would like some upvc windows fitted " sorry im a joiner i work in wood "but its the same thing isnt it "


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

My joiner friend used to get call from window companies. Hello, I'm from abc windows ... to which he'd answer oh, good! how many do want made? Oh, we don't want any made ... cheers, then. Down would go the phone.


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## rogxwhit (9 Sep 2022)

If I had a cold call from a pvc window firm I used to start laughing - the situation was, after all, ridiculous. It threw them, obviously. But they'd want to know why I was laughing. Still laughing, I'd explain: "I make wood windows". It seemed a fair exchange.


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## HamsterJam (10 Sep 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> I quite like the idea of a hay box for slow cooking. I have some rigid wall insulation that should make a well-insulated box. I am just a bit unsure what is the melting point of the insulation I have.


We have a couple of Mr D Thermal Cookers which claim to be the modern equivalent of a haybox. (Think large stainless steel thermos flask). 
We used them camping and narrowboating but they are presently saving us electricity or oil (we cook on an induction hob and Rayburn).


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## HamsterJam (10 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I wonder if one of the resident electrical boffins could give us a clue what proportion of the power used on standby is actually used by the light? I doubt it's much.


Very little indeed. The little standby lights are LEDs that consume fractions of a watt and the rest of the standby circuit will consume significantly more. 
A few years ago there was a move to make appliances consume less than 1watt on standby including the light so anything relatively modern should be OK.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2022)

That's as I thought.


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## johnny (10 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> The first step to reduce sound transmission is to draught proof - sound waves pass through any gap.
> 
> 
> 4" to 6" spacing ain't at all brilliant for thermal performance though - the internal convection currents see to that.
> ...


thank you for your construction advice rox .................I expect that you missed the fact that I am a retired Architect


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## johna.clements (10 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> We've started to boil the kettle if pans need washing rather than pulling hot water from the tank, so that'll save water and power by not leaving the pipework full of hot water to go cold. Water rates will go up, they are bound to.


I do the same. 
I don't add cold water just use the brush to carefully lift things out of the water. Put the cuttlery in first, near boiling water water on top hooking them out again as quickly as possible before they heat up. Then wash one thing at a time. When the water starts to get a bit cold I start pre washing stuff to get the visible food off it and stack to wash the next day. Next day/time start with the pre washed stuff which does not need to be in the water to long before moving onto the new unwashed stuff before the water cools then just prewash.


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## johna.clements (10 Sep 2022)

Time your activities to benefit from waste heat.

Vacuum clean when you come home not before you go out. 
Use the oven slightly latter in the day when you would turn the heating on.


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## rogxwhit (10 Sep 2022)

johnny said:


> I expect that you missed the fact that I am a retired Architect


Yes, I missed that!  True what I said, though, no? And other people read these threads ...


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## Terry - Somerset (10 Sep 2022)

Energy consumption in the home could readily be reduced to (perhaps) ~25% of current levels if we chose to do so. A bold statement - but thinking back to a childhood in the 1950s and 1960s:

only the living room in a 3 bed detached house had heating (coal then gas)
single glazed throughout - frost on inside of the windows in winter
no cavity wall insulation - many older properties would have been solid walls
one central ceiling lamp in each room
one bathroom not three
washday one a week, not every day in the automatic washing machine
clothes worn for several days before washing - before the advent of deodorants
no tumble dryer - washing lines ruled
fridges still a rarity. No second freezers in the garage
blankets on the bed, thermals, woolies (not the shop) etc were standard issue
Technological improvements would make a typical house of the 1950s less challenging - cavity wall insulation, double glazing, led lighting etc.

Energy makes us comfortable - we enjoy its consumption, not the cost. I am not proposing a return to the 1950s, but it was the norm, how most expected to live, not a pit of deprivation.

We are simply profligate with energy because we can afford to be, and we enjoy it!


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## Jameshow (10 Sep 2022)

We have greatly reduced our energy consumption with uPVC, led lights, combi boilers and yet the cost of fuel increases? 

And when we get renewable energy and the cost remains the same. Due to it being pegged to the source of last resort!


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## Thingybob (10 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> We have greatly reduced our energy consumption with uPVC, led lights, combi boilers and yet the cost of fuel increases?
> 
> And when we get renewable energy and the cost remains the same. Due to it being pegged to the source of last resort!


Sorry James i thought Bradford was in Yorkshire not off world somewhere


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## HOJ (10 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> only the living room in a 3 bed detached house had heating (coal then gas)
> single glazed throughout - frost on inside of the windows in winter
> no cavity wall insulation - many older properties would have been solid walls
> one central ceiling lamp in each room
> ...


This describes me to a T, 

2 bed, 1800's semi cottage thing, wood burner when it gets cold, immersion on for 1/2 hour + I've stopped doing the hoovering now, all stone & wood floors, broom....


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2022)

Our electricity was 11p at night, 17p by day, standing charge 23p iirc. After my lad died (March) coming into warmer weather (electric water heating) we cut the bill from £135 a month to not much over the £100. It's now 29p (single rate, no more e7) and 49p standing charge and our last bill (today) is £120. That's with no electric heating. A new fridge freezer and a Ninja Foodi - we haven't done bad.


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## Stevekane (10 Sep 2022)

Geebee said:


> Just bought a new freezer.
> I put one of the energy monitors on our old freezer and I have to admit I was shocked.
> 
> It never turned off and was always running, so guessing it never got cold enough. Did some calculations and it worked out at approx. 1500kwh a year.
> ...


Great post as Ive been looking at our built in freezer which must be at least 25yrs old and which always seems to be vibrating away,,time to get a meter thing but will probably buy a new one anyway,,,
Thanks for the heads up,,
Steve


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## mikej460 (10 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Energy consumption in the home could readily be reduced to (perhaps) ~25% of current levels if we chose to do so. A bold statement - but thinking back to a childhood in the 1950s and 1960s:
> 
> only the living room in a 3 bed detached house had heating (coal then gas)
> single glazed throughout - frost on inside of the windows in winter
> ...


or...live in a cave


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## Ollie78 (10 Sep 2022)

Going to have a go at cooking stuff in an a cast iron pot on top of the Woodburner this winter.
I already do my coffee on it in a moka pot.

Apparently baked potatos work well and also various breads too. Should be worth a try.

Already got rid of a second freezer we had in the garage. All my lights are already LED. 
I even considered getting a little solar generator thingy just to charge all the phones and tablets.

Ps. Just a quick note about the triple glazing and sound reduction. A double (or even single pane ) unit with accoustic laminate is very much superior for this purpose.

Ollie


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## Just4Fun (11 Sep 2022)

Ollie78 said:


> Going to have a go at cooking stuff in an a cast iron pot on top of the Woodburner this winter.


I do that if I have the wood burner running, but that is not often. I am far too lazy to handle all that firewood.

When the burner is going I keep a pan or two of water on the top. It is surprising how often that saves using the kettle or drawing water from the hot tap.


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## Suffolk Brian (11 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Our electricity was 11p at night, 17p by day, standing charge 23p iirc. After my lad died (March) coming into warmer weather (electric water heating) we cut the bill from £135 a month to not much over the £100. It's now 29p (single rate, no more e7) and 49p standing charge and our last bill (today) is £120. That's with no electric heating. A new fridge freezer and a Ninja Foodi - we haven't done bad.


Phil, how do you get on with your Ninja Foodi? My wife and I have been discussing whether to get one. A local family have one for sale secondhand but almost new. They freely admit they don’t use it and don’t really get on with it. There are several components to this. First is the cost. They are asking £200 for a model that was £260. Yes, proportionately it is a bargain, relatively speaking, but how much electricity will you need to save to get even some of your money back - it has a 1700W heater element in it. Granted, a bit different to a 3Kw Oven. Yes it seems versatile, but it won’t cook a (say) roast chicken, roast potatoes and veg all in one go. So you will still be using other cooking “elements “, microwave probably. We are still sitting on the fence I suppose, but would like to hear your, and anyone else for that matter, opinion. Will they become the latest must have gadget used twice and slung in the cupboard never again to see the light of day? Thanks for your views.


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## AlanY (11 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Buy a Ninja Foodi 15 - 1. Cuts your electricity consumption by miles.


I did buy the 15-in-1 based on an earlier post by you, Phil. Fantastic for cooking roasts. Have not really tried it for much else as it is a big beast and a bit cumbersome to move from where it is stored to where it is used. The traditional oven is still much more convenient although I am thinking about also buying the Ninja Dual Zone Air Fryer. I think the drawers would make this far more convenient to use for the everyday meals and snacks. Very true about how much more efficient they are, though, with an estimated 75% energy saving as against the traditional oven. I can see these appliances making the cooker fan ovens obsolete, which has me asking the question as to whether I should even keep the range cooker or simply replace it with kitchen units and a gas hob?


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## AlanY (11 Sep 2022)

Suffolk Brian said:


> Phil, how do you get on with your Ninja Foodi? My wife and I have been discussing whether to get one. A local family have one for sale secondhand but almost new. They freely admit they don’t use it and don’t really get on with it. There are several components to this. First is the cost. They are asking £200 for a model that was £260. Yes, proportionately it is a bargain, relatively speaking, but how much electricity will you need to save to get even some of your money back - it has a 1700W heater element in it. Granted, a bit different to a 3Kw Oven. Yes it seems versatile, but it won’t cook a (say) roast chicken, roast potatoes and veg all in one go. So you will still be using other cooking “elements “, microwave probably. We are still sitting on the fence I suppose, but would like to hear your, and anyone else for that matter, opinion. Will they become the latest must have gadget used twice and slung in the cupboard never again to see the light of day? Thanks for your views.


The 15-in-1 model incorporates a pressure cooker which cuts down cooking time enormously. Also, the machine works out cooking time based on what the probe sensor tells it, which means perfect cooked meats every time. I still steam veggies on the hob, though. You can still buy the 15-in-1 for £249 brand new (at least, that is what I paid less than a month ago) so I am not sure I would buy a used one to save £49 (unless it also comes with the extras such as the silicon thingy for lifting cooked meats out easily and the baking trays, I suppose. These did cost a few quid extra).


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## Suffolk Brian (11 Sep 2022)

AlanY said:


> The 15-in-1 model incorporates a pressure cooker which cuts down cooking time enormously. Also, the machine works out cooking time based on what the probe sensor tells it, which means perfect cooked meats every time. I still steam veggies on the hob, though. You can still buy the 15-in-1 for £249 brand new (at least, that is what I paid less than a month ago) so I am not sure I would buy a used one to save £49 (unless it also comes with the extras such as the silicon thingy for lifting cooked meats out easily and the baking trays, I suppose. These did cost a few quid extra).


The one we were offered is the 14-1 but seems to be complete with all the extras. However, I just looked on F/B Marketplace, and there seems to be quite a few up for sale, different models. So the question is are they just getting rid of them because they cannot be bothered with them, or are they so impressed they are trading up to a newer/better/bigger model?


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2022)

I started a thread about Ninjas once before.










NINJA FOODI


Now the kids are no longer at home its just the two of us, some years ago I bought a table top Halogen Oven from lidls, it was a crazy cheap discounted price of maybe £9.99 and it sat langusing on our worktop for 18months doing nothing,,,the instructions were non existsnt and I think we didnt...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## Stevekane (11 Sep 2022)

Ive mentioned these in other similer posts and freely admit I dont have any figures at hand to back it up but weve been using one of those countertop hallogen ovens, ours was very cheap from Aldi a few years ago and branded as a Delta, its just a simple hallogen oven, doesnt need preheating, cooks a meal for two, bakes good bread etc and due to the amount of time its on to cook and being halogen, I think it would be much more economical than our regluar oven which takes for ever to heat up and cool down afterwards?
Compared to the Ninja our one cost around £20 in the sale and if it conked out we would be lost without it.
Steve


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## AlanY (11 Sep 2022)

Suffolk Brian said:


> The one we were offered is the 14-1 but seems to be complete with all the extras. However, I just looked on F/B Marketplace, and there seems to be quite a few up for sale, different models. So the question is are they just getting rid of them because they cannot be bothered with them, or are they so impressed they are trading up to a newer/better/bigger model?


There is something to be said about that. As I mentioned, the 15-in-1 is a bit cumbersome for me, so I only use it for the Sunday roasts. I would use it more if I could permanently site it where it is used, but our kitchen is not really big enough to do that. So there is a risk that it will fall into disuse and follow in the footsteps of the Tefal air fryer we had that was used once and sat there until my eldest daughter 'disappeared' it. But I hope not and, as I mentioned, I would also like to try the Ninja dual zone air fryer as that seems much more useful for the more everyday convenience foods.

(PS: I seriously doubt that I would pay £200 for the obsolete 14-in-1 model)


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2022)

Suffolk Brian said:


> how much electricity will you need to save to get even some of your money back - it has a 1700W heater element in it. Granted, a bit different to a 3Kw Oven ...


The thing is they are contained, a small space, so that is maximum demand. I put a meter (this type of thing, others are available - Decdeal Power Energy Monitor, LCD Display Electricity Usage Power Meter Socket Energy Watt Volt Amps Wattage KWH Consumption Analyzer Monitor Outlet AC230V~250V : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools ) on it, it's eye opening ............ and frightening when some things are plugged into it . The consumption flits in seconds for e.g. 10w to 800w to 1600w back to 20w. The only time it uses full power is on warm up. It uses about one unit in 9 hours dehydrating, about one unit in 25 mins baking a loaf - which it does very well. Melt in your mouth lamb shanks - half pressure cook, second half air fry. Akilo of potatoes 3mins after warm up. You use probably half the power in half the time so win - win.
They are easy to clean, as many things can be cooked in one container, and the liners, grids etc. are small enough to go in a dishwasher. Some of the extras appear expensive but when compared to other top class cooking paraphernalia they are not. (Incidentally I've just bought Foodi frying pans - they are first class.)
We went for the 15 - 1 1/ because I bake bread regularly, and 2/ because I tend to work upon the theory that it's better to regret something you didn't do than something you did - I didn't want be sitting wishing I'd bought the bigger better one after the event. The demand for them must be going sky high.
When electricity goes to 50p a unit it'll probably pay for itself in a year or so.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2022)

Back on tack for anyone in a bungalow with a multi fuel stove.
We have no other heating (admittedly in a warmer place than many) so I put a 6" insulated duct (which is 8" overall and insulated again over and under) from the ceiling above the stove to the far side of the bungalow, the kitchen and the bedroom with an in line Manrose 6" fan, 48w iirc. I makes an amazing difference to the bungalow as a whole, and it also makes the room the stove is in more comfortable and usable - it takes excess heat away, those of you with stoves will know. Meshes removed for air flow, halos turned on my lathe. it dispenses with the need for electric heating in the other rooms.
15 or 16 months ago this cost about £150 - you can probably stick another £50 on it now.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2022)

Stevekane said:


> Great post as Ive been looking at our built in freezer which must be at least 25yrs old and which always seems to be vibrating away,,time to get a meter thing but will probably buy a new one anyway,,,
> Thanks for the heads up,,
> Steve


There have been a few post of seriously old fridges and freezers' seriously high consumption..


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## Dabop (11 Sep 2022)

I live offgrid, and the most commonly used cooking devices are electric kettle (until I have my first coffee of the day- I should have a 'do not approach' sign on me lol) then the air frier, then the microwave...
Like many offgriders- I tossed the 'upright fridge' and went a top loader freezer, and am in the middle of converting another to a 'top loader fridge' (a simple task- especially if you are a electrical fitter by trade lol)- the difference in power consuption between an upright (where the cold air 'falls out' every time you open the door) and a top loader is quite dramatic- especially for those that have family members that open the door and then 'browse' the contents- Those with a 'wattmeter' can look and see the power peak used after even a single door opening to recool the interior (especially in summer here, where 35-40C can be seen for weeks on end)
:-O
(I'll have to take pics next time I'm at my mates place- he did the same a while back- his 'fridge' has 'lift up' compartments made out of drawer slides and stainless racking fitted inside the ex 'freezer' compartment to make access easier- was so much better than the old 'hanging baskets' in the freezer that he converted that too)


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## Spectric (11 Sep 2022)

Having brought a Ninja 15 in 1 I can say that we are seeing a reduction in electricity usage, I am putting this down to the fact you turn an oven on and wait ten minutes plus for it to get upto temperature whereas the Ninja seems to get there quicker and cook faster.

I would not assume a combi boiler is more efficient in any situation, a lot get fitted simply because they are a cheaper option and you don't need a hot water cylinder but for many families who use more hot water than a couple in a flat then having that tank of hot water is more efficient. I have a 150 litre Oso cylinder and a sealed system that cost about £12 a month in gas for hot water.


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## Just4Fun (11 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I put a 6" insulated duct (which is 8" overall and insulated again over and under) from the ceiling above the stove to the far side of the bungalow, the kitchen and the bedroom with an in line Manrose 6" fan, 48w iirc. I makes an amazing difference to the bungalow as a whole,


That's interesting. I did something similar to try and move heat from the kitchen (where the woodburner is) to my office, but my duct is probably 4 inches not 6. It had little or no impact, subjectively, and I have never bothered measuring the effect. I guess my duct and/or fan was too small.


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## Just4Fun (11 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> There have been a few post of seriously old fridges and freezers' seriously high consumption..


I will have to measure how much our fridge uses. I have no idea how old it is; it was left by the previous owner when we moved here in 2004 and we thought "it will do for a while".


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> That's interesting. I did something similar to try and move heat from the kitchen (where the woodburner is) to my office, but my duct is probably 4 inches not 6. It had little or no impact, subjectively, and I have never bothered measuring the effect. I guess my duct and/or fan was too small.


Did you have a ceiling fan or an in line one? I started with a ceiling fan - an Expelair - which failed after a couple of months. it didn't make a huge difference, so I looked into it further and went for an inline. It has about three times the throughput as the ceiling fan and is quieter being up in the roof.


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## Just4Fun (11 Sep 2022)

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. The fan I used was the sort of extractor fan often used in bathroom walls.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2022)

mmmm....... like a ceiling fan, then. The fan is blowing into the duct rather than sucking through it as an in line fan does.








Manrose MF150S 6 Inch, 150mm Inline Mixed Flow Extractor Fan


Manrose MF150S 6 Inch, 150mm Inline Mixed Flow Duct Fan. 500m3/hr extraction flow rate. Discounted Internet Price. Next Day Delivery.




www.extractorfanworld.co.uk





That's smaller than mine but gives you the idea.


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## Just4Fun (11 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The fan is blowing into the duct rather than sucking through it as an in line fan does.


Oh, I got that bit right then. The fan is at the kitchen end of the duct so it is blowing through the duct.


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## Redkite (11 Sep 2022)

Suffolk Brian said:


> Phil, how do you get on with your Ninja Foodi? My wife and I have been discussing whether to get one. A local family have one for sale secondhand but almost new. They freely admit they don’t use it and don’t really get on with it. There are several components to this. First is the cost. They are asking £200 for a model that was £260. Yes, proportionately it is a bargain, relatively speaking, but how much electricity will you need to save to get even some of your money back - it has a 1700W heater element in it. Granted, a bit different to a 3Kw Oven. Yes it seems versatile, but it won’t cook a (say) roast chicken, roast potatoes and veg all in one go. So you will still be using other cooking “elements “, microwave probably. We are still sitting on the fence I suppose, but would like to hear your, and anyone else for that matter, opinion. Will they become the latest must have gadget used twice and slung in the cupboard never again to see the light of day? Thanks for your views.


Hi Brian,
I bought an Instant Vortex Plus air fryer after reading a lot of reviews and think it's great. It gets used almost every day, the oven is only rarely used now, should have got one years ago but got misled by the "fryer" part, we use it as a replacement for the grill and roasting that the oven did. It's 1700W but the rule is generally look at the instructions on your food then set the air fryer for 20 degrees less and cut the cooking time by 20% That combined with a three minute warm up time (grill/oven took 10 ish) means it should be a lot more economical and I put the food in for the warm up anyway as v few foods need to go into a preheated oven.
This model has a single large pan, enough to get two fish fillets in and surrounded by chopped root veg so it's fine for a family of two. Takes a bit of getting used to but has a window so you can monitor progress. We cook a lot from frozen, I just made of note of temp/time that I used for future ref. Must admit some things get a quick blast in the microwave to get some heat into the middle and then a few mins in the air fryer to crisp up (onion bhajis come out great). Hope that's useful.


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## John on the Wirral (12 Sep 2022)

When my next door neighbour make the early cup of tea in the morning he puts the remaining hot water in a flask for thr mid-morning coffee. Also,you could use the remaining water for washing up.


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## Stuart Moffat (13 Sep 2022)

Thingybob said:


> Replaced mine with GU10 bulbs and fittings LED


Good idea! Did you have to remove the cooker hood to change the diameter of the holes for the gu10 fittings? On the face of it the diameters do look similar.


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## johna.clements (13 Sep 2022)

John on the Wirral said:


> When my next door neighbour make the early cup of tea in the morning he puts the remaining hot water in a flask for thr mid-morning coffee. Also,you could use the remaining water for washing up.


The 200mL of scalding water that is left in my kettle is quite useful for a bit spot weed killing. No worries about weed killer drift and complete safe after a minutes cooling. But you will only get one weed at a time.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

I can't afford a thousand gallons of water, let alone the electricity.


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

Both saving energy and protecting our enviroment / planet have a lot in common and will require us to change our lifestyle and habbits. It won't be a few big changes but probably many smaller changes which will be needed and maybe this energy crisis has been a wakeup call to put the brakes on our wasteful energy usage. The modern lifestyle is highly energy dependant and everything we do causes energy to be used somewhere, to get water into our homes is using electricity, to get the waste out and treated uses more energy and maybe many don't see the bigger picture.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

Yes, I'm waiting for water bills to rocket.


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## johna.clements (13 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Yes, I'm waiting for water bills to rocket.


The biggest cost for water companies after depreciation of assets is labour. They spend about a third of the amount of labour on materials and consumables.

I would expect labour to increase by close to maybe a bit less than inflation.
Materials and consumables will be higher, plastic and steel etc plus electric to heat the office. That has gone up a lot in the last year, much more than general inflation.


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## The_Yellow_Ardvark (13 Sep 2022)

I have a nice collection of old fashioned oil lamps.

They give a good light and the lamp oil is dirt cheep and plus a few going will not only light the room. But give of a good bit of heat.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> The biggest cost for water companies after depreciation of assets is labour. They spend about a third of the amount of labour on materials and consumables.
> 
> I would expect labour to increase by close to maybe a bit less than inflation.
> Materials and consumables will be higher, plastic and steel etc plus electric to heat the office. That has gone up a lot in the last year, much more than general inflation.


Certainly - I was thinking of power and fuel costs, though.


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## Thingybob (14 Sep 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> Good idea! Did you have to remove the cooker hood to change the diameter of the holes for the gu10 fittings? On the face of it the diameters do look similar.


No the hole size was the same i was lucky just fitted new sockets and bulbs


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2022)

One more thing I should have said was as well as a new f/f and a Foodi we turned down the immersion. It was set a bit high when there were three of us because it's not all that large.


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## HamsterJam (14 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> The biggest cost for water companies after depreciation of assets is labour. They spend about a third of the amount of labour on materials and consumables.
> 
> I would expect labour to increase by close to maybe a bit less than inflation.
> Materials and consumables will be higher, plastic and steel etc plus electric to heat the office. That has gone up a lot in the last year, much more than general inflation.


I suspect they consume a modest amount of electricity too. Pumping stations, treatment works etc all powered by electricity and running 24/7


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## Terry - Somerset (14 Sep 2022)

The issue is wider than the water companies.

Workers will demand/desire pay increases to enable them to cope with their cost of living increases which includes energy.

Suppliers of new equipment will have increased costs of materials, labour and energy which will need to be recovered from the water companies. Alternative is reduced investment (but we want leaks fixed, sewage discharges eliminated). Equipment manufacturers could accept a loss (unlikely).

Follow the cost chain back a bit further - material extraction and processing needs energy.

Not quite sure where all this leads - but reliance upon energy is fundamental to the well-being of humanity - whether expressed in material wealth or health.


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## johna.clements (14 Sep 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> I suspect they consume a modest amount of electricity too. Pumping stations, treatment works etc all powered by electricity and running 24/7


Electricity is a consumable. 
Consumables and materials was about a third of the amount of labour.

Assume a water company spent £30m on labour and £10m on materials and consumables.
Labour costs 10% more and, materials and consumables 100% more on average.
Then £33m gets spent on abour and £20m on materials and consumables.
A £13 increase from £40m combined or 33%.


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## HamsterJam (14 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Electricity is a consumable.


Understood. 
The industry I work in consume a lot of energy and we treat it separately. 
Our costs are rising way more than 100%. Going to be some interesting times ahead.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> The industry I work in consume a lot of energy and we treat it separately.


Surely energy cost are part of the product and must be met by someone somewhere and only so much can be passed on to the customer, and only so much absorbed by the company so how can you treat them as seperate.


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## johna.clements (14 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Surely energy cost are part of the product and must be met by someone somewhere and only so much can be passed on to the customer, and only so much absorbed by the company so how can you treat them as seperate.


How you list your business costs does not make any difference to who pays you for it.

A handmade furniture maker could list electricity in with their premises cost in the headline figures.
Wood maybe listed separately to other materials.

You will list your costs in a way that reflects there relative importance. If the furniture makers is using expensive hardwoods then that could be a major cost whist they do not use much electricity.


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## artie (14 Sep 2022)

The price of materials has doubled, the price you charge has doubled, so profit has doubled.

The price of electric hasn't quite doubled.

What's the problem?


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> What's the problem?


The customers put the job on hold until the prices stabilise.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> The price of materials has doubled, the price you charge has doubled, so profit has doubled.
> 
> The price of electric hasn't quite doubled.
> 
> What's the problem?


Some commercial businesses electricity has gone up by four or five hundred percent - it's not capped.


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## artie (14 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Some commercial businesses electricity has gone up by four or five hundred percent - it's not capped.


I didn't know that how do they justify that much of an increase?


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## 1steven (14 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> One more thing I should have said was as well as a new f/f and a Foodi we turned down the immersion. It was set a bit high when there were three of us because it's not all that large.


What temperature Is it at now?


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2022)

I've not measured it but I would think about 45° - a bit too hot to bath in.


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## GweithdyDU (14 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> to get the waste out and treated uses more energy and maybe many don't see the bigger picture.


Not if you dung in a bucket as we do. I mean for those of a delicate nature, "we use homemade composting toilets". The contents of said buckets gets covered in horse dung, left for a year or so and the conglomerate dung is then fed to my tree saplings. Not sure how much energy I'm saving though and as soon as I can afford a domestic sewerage treatment plant, I'll have one. Mind you, you can get non-electrical one of those as well which is what I'll be fitting.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

I have seen those enviromental toilets where everything long drops onto straw and is left to decompose naturally, might have been a national trust or english heritage place.


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## artie (14 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I have seen those enviromental toilets where everything long drops onto straw and is left to decompose naturally, might have been a national trust or english heritage place.


I was approached 7 or 8 years ago about manufacturing those.

Apparently, there is no one in Ireland making them, I didn't fancy it either.


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## johna.clements (14 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've not measured it but I would think about 45° - a bit too hot to bath in.


The hot water should be kept hotter than that. Legionella will not be killed under 60C.


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## Dabop (15 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> I was approached 7 or 8 years ago about manufacturing those.
> 
> Apparently, there is no one in Ireland making them, I didn't fancy it either.


Actually, thats what I am using here- mostly due to the costs involved in a modern septic- with my soil conditions, I would need a septic system that uses around 2kwh a day in electricity (I am offgrid solar) plus a 100m of trench (which would require clearing as much bush again a I did for the shed and house blocks combined- total cost over 75KAu...
:-O
Instead went with a mob here in Australia, a smaller install for the shed, and when the house is finished, a bigger one for the house
The toilet itself visually looks pretty much like any other externally (obviously no water tank) and the collection tubs are for my usage about 3 months for the smaller one in the shed, needs swapping over to a new tub and left for decomposing- by the time it is finished, it is a totally harmless and quite good fertiliser
Best of all is it has approval Australia wide, and it only needs a 5m long trench- which can easily fit inside the existing clearings...
(unpacked in the shed- now to finish building the 'toilet/shower' room lol)






Comes with three of those tubs, and has a solar/battery powered fan on the roof vent pipe that 'sucks' air into the toilet- so you don't even need a roof ventilator fan or the 'smell spray' in the toilet if you been on the chilli and beer diet lol- odors are drawn down into the composting chamber and then released through the roof vent

The big brother to that (the little one cost just over $1500, the big one thats going in the house about $3k- a LOT cheaper than a septic lol) has a much bigger thank that only needs emptying about every six months or so- the one I ordered has an electric motor on a timer, the one in the picture has a handle (rhs) that you turn once or twice a week





The same company that made mine has literally thousands installed in national parks and on rural highways at rest areas across Australia (hence why it easy to get approvals, they have a Australia wide one for their systems)


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## GweithdyDU (15 Sep 2022)

Wow! So impressed compared to our brewing bucket sitting in a plywood box with a loo seat on top of it all. That system of yours looks almost good enough to be considered against the hassle of fitting a domestic sewerage treatment plant (no new fitting of septic tanks allowed where I live). Only thing for me is as I'm getting older and anyway have mobility issues, I don't know if I want to be carrying buckets or containers of poo in my 70's and 80'S (pays to be optimistic!), even if it is only needed every few months.


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## Dabop (15 Sep 2022)

We aren't allowed 'septics' either anymore (at least for new installs- only grandfathered in old ones still allowed)- but the full treatment domestic sewage plant (which is what I was talking about) is still called a septic here
Saying the full name every time would be a mouthful in conversation lol...

The containers by the time they are full and cycled and ready to be emptied are quite light (about 20kg total) and have wheels on them- they weigh far less than my wheelie bin does and have the same sized wheels...
(from 'full' to end of cycle, they self compose down to about 1/4 full, and it ends up as a sandy like dry compost- very similar to what you get in a bag of composting material from the gardening center- minimal to no smell by that stage and not hazardous (although they do recommend rubber gloves when emptying- I suspect most people would wear gloves anyway just to avoid the 'ikky factor' when emptying lol)


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> The hot water should be kept hotter than that. Legionella will not be killed under 60C.


I hadn't thought of that, but would it make any difference in a sealed mains pressure system?


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## 1steven (15 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've not measured it but I would think about 45° - a bit too hot to bath in.





Phil Pascoe said:


> I hadn't thought of that, but would it make any difference in a sealed mains pressure system?


Yes especially if you use a shower


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2022)

Where would the bacteria come from in a closed system?


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## johna.clements (15 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Where would the bacteria come from in a closed system?


Its not closed its a "pipe.

Stuff comes down the pipe including bacteria.
There are standards on the amount of contaminants and the chlorine keeps the bacteria in check.
A few bacteria won't hurt you (unless you are particularly susceptible) but many will.
You are providing a nice warm place for them to multiply.

When they do work on the pipes they use chlorine to help sterilise the pipe that is new or opened. And flush then pipes. But they will not get everything.


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## johna.clements (15 Sep 2022)

1steven said:


> Yes especially if you use a shower


I worked in an office in Exeter and they took samples from the shower head. The shower was only used occasionally so water would stand in the shower head until the next person decided they wanted to go on a run at lunch time.


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## Spectric (15 Sep 2022)

I know a very old farmhouse where all the sewage flows into some large pits in a field covered by stone slabs, the liquid flows out and through some large beds of weeds and as far as I know the pit is not emptied so it must just decompose and seep out. I recal some programe where there was a community on some remote scottish island where they eventually poisoned themselves by not managing their sewage, caused contamination.


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## johna.clements (15 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I know a very old farmhouse where all the sewage flows into some large pits in a field covered by stone slabs, the liquid flows out and through some large beds of weeds and as far as I know the pit is not emptied so it must just decompose and seep out. I recal some programe where there was a community on some remote scottish island where they eventually poisoned themselves by not managing their sewage, caused contamination.


That is basically what a sewage treatment works is.

Put it in a tank with little oxygen so the anaerobic bacteria can get to work. Then sprinkle the liquid on some stones so the aerobic bacteria can do their job. 

They would only contaimenate them selves if they were using the water out of the reed bed to drink etc. If it discharged into a stream that ran into the sea it would be just the same as the result of a few cattle, sheep that lived in the field next to the stream.


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## artie (15 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Some commercial businesses electricity has gone up by four or five hundred percent - it's not capped.


Funny coincidence, I was talking to a businessman this morning who says he pays £1 per kwh.

Why do they charge a business 3 times as much as domestic?


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## johna.clements (15 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> Funny coincidence, I was talking to a businessman this morning who says he pays £1 per kwh.
> 
> Why do they charge a business 3 times as much as domestic?


Because there is no cap on non domestic prices, they can charge what people will pay. Its the free market.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> Funny coincidence, I was talking to a businessman this morning who says he pays £1 per kwh.
> 
> Why do they charge a business 3 times as much as domestic?


Why do dogs lick their nuts? because they can.


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## Limey Lurker (15 Sep 2022)

I've changed all my 13 amp sockets for 5 amp sockets. That's a 62% saving immediately!


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## 1steven (15 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> I worked in an office in Exeter and they took samples from the shower head. The shower was only used occasionally so water would stand in the shower head until the next person decided they wanted to go on a run at lunch time.


This is a must read regarding Legionella 





Legionnaires' disease. The control of legionella bacteria in water systems


Practical advice concerning the risk from exposure as aligned to the requirements of both the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health 1999.




www.hse.gov.uk


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## Oakay (15 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> Lo tech (cheap to buy) tumble dryers are wasteful and expensive to run.
> We've experimented with using a storage cupboard (about the size of our airing cupboard) for drying with a portable dehumidifier. It works well. Clothes are dry in a few hours. You see how many jugs of water you take out. And once they are dry the dh stops, unlike a tumbler which will happily carry on cooking clothes after they are dry.
> 
> View attachment 143106
> ...


Water saved from a dehumidifier is also useful for other things like topping up a steam iron, rinsing the car, topping up windscreen washer. No lime scale.


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## Sideways (15 Sep 2022)

Oakay said:


> Water saved from a dehumidifier is also useful for other things like topping up a steam iron, rinsing the car, topping up windscreen washer. No lime scale.


It all gets fed to my wife's houseplants


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2022)

I use the water from cleaning the aquarium filter for that.


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## Oakay (15 Sep 2022)

Since Putin invaded Ukraine and Shell bought a shed load of their gas just before it was banned, I have resented using any unnecessary energy, not just because of increased cost and environmental damage. It inspired me to give up being a heavy tea and coffee drinker. I now keep an used, clean milk container topped up with tap water in the fridge as a regular supply of cold water. I actually like the change to drinking cold water and don't miss tea and coffee. It suits my health too. The extra water in the fridge increases its efficiency. Target reducing use of high energy appliances. The kettle is on that list.


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## daftdog (16 Sep 2022)

I bought an adjustable 7 day timer switch £30 ish had my lecy fit it to the feed of to the combi boiler turn boiler off each evening at 8 and on at 7 next morning object no hunting through the night. Might have to change the off to later when the winter comes.


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## Oakay (16 Sep 2022)

Improve an aging fridge. Our fridge had a broken door seal so I replaced it with a non-specific replacement cut to size, from Ebay. It arrived oversize, obviously, but also quite mis-shapen. I fitted it with screws and hybrid silicone, but still would not close tightly. I purchased a set of cheap toggle clamps also from ebay and fitted one of them onto the fridge using a blind-riveter. After 6 months of using the toggle clamp, the seal now has adopted the shape and we don't really need the toggle clamp. The performance of the fridge has reverted from poor to back to new. It comes on very infrequently now and remains very cool.


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## Garden Shed Projects (19 Sep 2022)

I did a slow roast shoulder of lamb in the oven yesterday. I took advantage and did a pot of steak and kidney at the same time for later in the week


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

Used the oven for a large joint of pork, a leek gratin and an apple crumble. First time it's been used since buying the Foodi in May.

edit - and a huge tray of roast potatoes.


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## Robswood (20 Sep 2022)

Interesting thread, especially reducing oven usage. We have for many years used a Grand Remoska instead of the oven. 
Its capacity is 4lt and rated at about 550watt. They have made in the Czech Republic for 60 odd years. Lakeland stock them.
We cook everything from whole chicken to leg of lamb plus all trimmings. Cooking time is the same as a normal oven. No fancy controls or thermostats to go wrong, just plug it in and switch on. And its not made in the far east!!


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## Dibs-h (21 Sep 2022)

Just changed a couple of 9.5W LED light bulbs for some 3.5W ones (as a sort of test) and whilst I can tell the light output is less - they are far from "stumbling in the dark" - so looking to change all the others over the next few days.


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## okeydokey (23 Sep 2022)

How much £ will the lower rated LED;s save compared to the useful brighter environment?


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## johna.clements (23 Sep 2022)

okeydokey said:


> How much £ will the lower rated LED;s save compared to the useful brighter environment?


It should depend on if the room needs a bright light. 
If you are reading, a workshop, kitchen or other room where you are doing close work or could trip over stuff or the like; yes you need a bright light. A hall maybe low, stairs medium or bright, kitchen bright,, room you just watch TV in low. 


3.5W is a lot less than 9.5W. If you do not need the light why pay for it. But you also have to buy the bulb but LED bulbs are cheaper than they were and do last a very long time. 

A 3.5 W bulb running for 4 hours per day for 365 days will use 3.5 X 4 x 365 X 10% power loss = 5.6 kW or units.
The 9.5W uses 15.3kW per year, a bit more than 10 more units a year. 10 units of electricity costs about as much as a cheap 3.5W light bulb, it would certainly be paid for in the second year if you purchased a cheap bulb.

It would certainly be worth it to move the high use bulbs around to where they are needed and to places where you do not use the light much.


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## Dibs-h (23 Sep 2022)

All the bulbs replaced are effectively background lighting. Where task lighting is required - say the kids bedrooms at their desks, they have table lamps (they have 1.5W LED bulbs but throw out a lot of light given the distance they are at).

Combined with almost every wall\ceiling in the house being white - with the 3.5W bulbs, things are far from dark.

As an example: our staircase light is on from dusk till 8am - say 10 hours a day. Based on the new rates of leccy from 1 Oct and the bulbs costing £3(giving out 470 lm or thereabouts) - the payback will be about 6 months.

Obviously folks mileage & preferences may vary but the wife & kids haven't complained (yet).


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

It is not all about wattage when it comes to illumination, you also need to think about the temperature of the bulb which makes a big difference in what the light looks like, some areas want a warm light whilst others daylight.


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## Dibs-h (23 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> It is not all about wattage when it comes to illumination, you also need to think about the temperature of the bulb which makes a big difference in what the light looks like, some areas want a warm light whilst others daylight.


Yep - used a mix of warm ones in some areas\rooms and daylight ones in others.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2022)

The lamp outside my front door has a 2w bulb in it - it's surprising how much light that gives in the dark. It costs me 10p when I forget and leave it on for a week.


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2022)

Just a thought about wood stoves and insulation.
To get max heat from a wood burner of any shape or size you need to treat it like a rocket stove and burn a small amount of dry stuff very quickly with frequent topping up to keep it going.
But if the stove is big enough your fast burn can be quite large, and if the room is insulated this heat will be around for some time after the fire has gone down, less frequent topping up required.
Insulation is top priority whatever system you have.
When not using it I try to keep the stove charged up with fast burning stuff - planer chippings and sawdust best. Then if we come in from the cold we can get the room warmed up very quickly - much faster than the gas CH, which we are trying not to use anyway.


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The lamp outside my front door has a 2w bulb in it - it's surprising how much light that gives in the dark. It costs me 10p when I forget and leave it on for a week.


Ours is 4w but a slightly expensive "sign light" which you can leave on for two years (it says).


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## NFav (7 Oct 2022)

Living in a slightly rambling 1920’s house with solid walls, our insulation options are a bit limited. 
I am planning to put some internal insulation on the exterior walls as & when time / redecorating wife allows. The loft is already well insulated. But heating is always going to be our main challenge. The gas fired Aga does a fantastic job of cooking and heating the back part of the house through winter. 
I have discovered Honeywells EvoHome heating, so it’s smart radiator valves and a proper easy to use program panel, I can set different zones throughout the house and have different heating programs for each zone. No longer do I have all the heating on because I want to sit in the lounge watching TV. The bedroom comes on shortly before I go to bed and the lounge heating is already off. 
Only heating the rooms I want to use when I want to use them can only be a good thing.


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## Dibs-h (7 Oct 2022)

NFav said:


> I have discovered Honeywells EvoHome heating, so it’s smart radiator valves and a proper easy to use program panel, I can set different zones throughout the house and have different heating programs for each zone. No longer do I have all the heating on because I want to sit in the lounge watching TV. The bedroom comes on shortly before I go to bed and the lounge heating is already off.
> Only heating the rooms I want to use when I want to use them can only be a good thing.


I've had it for a few years now and very happy with it.


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## Limey Lurker (13 Oct 2022)

Everything is bigger in America?


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## mikej460 (13 Oct 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> Yep - used a mix of warm ones in some areas\rooms and daylight ones in others.


I replaced all our bulbs with CEF when we first moved in 16 years ago, since then I've replaced these with LED. However, I've only just discovered that LEDs are energy rated and most are E to G! I then went round feeling each bulb after it had been switched on for a while and was surprised that many were hot! I then bought a load of A rated ones from Amazon and these run much cooler.


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## Dibs-h (13 Oct 2022)

mikej460 said:


> I replaced all our bulbs with CEF when we first moved in 16 years ago, since then I've replaced these with LED. However, I've only just discovered that LEDs are energy rated and most are E to G! I then went round feeling each bulb after it had been switched on for a while and was surprised that many were hot! I then bought a load of A rated ones from Amazon and these run much cooler.


I've seen the same ones rated as A and E - the A ones were\are the older packaging and the E ones the newer packaging. Apparently the scales got changed in the last 12 months - or so Google tells me.

Might still look to see if there are A rated bulbs on the new scale & what their wattage\light output is.


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## MARK.B. (13 Oct 2022)

Check with your local council to see if they are running a warm home scheme , i have just had two lofts done(main house &extension)both had a little insulation already in place around 75mm and they have now been topped up to 270mm.The cost to me was only£99.00 and even though it has only been a few days the house already feels warmer and i expect it will save a fair few quid on heating bills in the future.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Oct 2022)

Limey Lurker said:


> Everything is bigger in America?


so they saved 0.00146kW per day?


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## Spectric (13 Oct 2022)

The energy rating will be in watts, this is how much power it will use no mater what the energy rating. The energy rating tells you how much light in lumens you get per watt of energy consumed. A rating is the best at over 200 lumens per watt and an F is as bad as you want to go and still get light at 85 lumens, there is also the equivalent energy rating that compares the LED to filament bulbs. Ie a 10 Watt LED = 60 Watt filament .


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## Dibs-h (13 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> The energy rating will be in watts, this is how much power it will use no mater what the energy rating. The energy rating tells you how much light in lumens you get per watt of energy consumed. A rating is the best at over 200 lumens per watt and an F is as bad as you want to go and still get light at 85 lumens, there is also the equivalent energy rating that compares the LED to filament bulbs. Ie a 10 Watt LED = 60 Watt filament .


Just found this:






Most of the bulbs I am finding (and the ones I fitted recently) are around D. Finding B or C (let alone A) rated LED based on the above table - seems to be like finding rocking horse poo.


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## Spectric (13 Oct 2022)

This will really be down to the technology, getting more light for less power and it must also be effected by the temperature in Kelvins that the bulb emits.


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## Dibs-h (13 Oct 2022)

On a related note - energy saving - been using the washing machine only on cold washes. Not noticed any issues with how the loads have turned out. Will need to look at my leccy usage spreadsheet to see what the actual effect is.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Oct 2022)

We metered ours between 30° and 40° - the lower temperature was near enough 25% less power.


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## johna.clements (13 Oct 2022)

I wash mostly at 30. 40 if it is a bit more dirty than normal. Once a month or two do the whites at 95 to clean the washing machine plus the clothes.


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## rogxwhit (13 Oct 2022)

Rush lights.


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## pe2dave (14 Oct 2022)

New one. Alone in a small room, I've used a fan heater for years. Just purchased an electric 'throw' (blanket). Running cost 1/4 - 1/3 of a heater.


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## clogs (14 Oct 2022)

disconected the water heater in our washing machine...
just use solar heated water......


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## rs6mra (14 Oct 2022)

o


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## rs6mra (14 Oct 2022)

I was wee concerned that our 15+ year old fridge freezer might not be running efficiently and was looking for a reason to replace it! So I bought a smart plug to monitor energy consumption and this was the outcome:

week 1= 19.4 kWh
week 2=16.5 kWh after having used my air compressor to blow out the dust at the back. This is something I now do annually after it suddenly gave up the ghost 5 years ago and a few days b4 Xmas!!! Somehow this seemed to get it going again and so far so good..........
week 3=14.8 kWh
week 4=12 kWh after having turned the freezer down to -18c
week 5= 11kWh

I wouldn't expect it to fall any further and I reckon it dropped to 11kWh because I was home alone all week.

I have satisfied my curiosity and it just goes to show how much energy was being wasted. My smart plug will now be used for the purpose for which I bought it which is to turn the heater on in my office outside early in the mornings.


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## Stuart Moffat (14 Oct 2022)

Whilst doing the hoovering this morning whilst symbols was doing the weekly shop, I had a brainwave. i do the hoovering every Friday morning, and if I were to do it only on the first Friday of the month I would save about 75% of the hoovering electricity costs. Genius?


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## Dibs-h (14 Oct 2022)

rs6mra said:


> I was wee concerned that our 15+ year old fridge freezer might not be running efficiently and was looking for a reason to replace it! So I bought a smart plug to monitor energy consumption and this was the outcome:
> 
> week 1= 19.4 kWh
> week 2=16.5 kWh after having used my air compressor to blow out the dust at the back. This is something I now do annually after it suddenly gave up the ghost 5 years ago and a few days b4 Xmas!!! Somehow this seemed to get it going again and so far so good..........
> ...


I had something similar - except 55 kWh in 2 weeks. Replaced it 3 days later. New one does about 10-12kWh a month.


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## Spectric (14 Oct 2022)

Hoovers, lets hope now we are out of the EU that we can forget the 900 watt limit because all that did was increase the time needed to do the job so saving nothing. Imagine if they applied that law to woodworking machinery, 900 watt max dust extraction or bandsaw.


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## paulm (14 Oct 2022)

Doesn't reduce power consumption but a useful gadget to make use of power tool batteries you already have, especially in any power cuts, available for most brands of batteries, clips on and adds a couple of usb slots and an led light to the battery.


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## johna.clements (14 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> Hoovers, lets hope now we are out of the EU that we can forget the 900 watt limit because all that did was increase the time needed to do the job so saving nothing. Imagine if they applied that law to woodworking machinery, 900 watt max dust extraction or bandsaw.


People who wish to will be able to buy nosier bigger vacuums. Others will still be free to buy smaller quieter ones with better designed motors that give more suck per watt.


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## Droogs (14 Oct 2022)

Or keep warm and save loads by using a stiff broom


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## Oldman (15 Oct 2022)

rs6mra said:


> I was wee concerned that our 15+ year old fridge freezer might not be running efficiently and was looking for a reason to replace it! So I bought a smart plug to monitor energy consumption and this was the outcome:
> 
> week 1= 19.4 kWh
> week 2=16.5 kWh after having used my air compressor to blow out the dust at the back. This is something I now do annually after it suddenly gave up the ghost 5 years ago and a few days b4 Xmas!!! Somehow this seemed to get it going again and so far so good..........
> ...


I have a pass through checker and recently monitored the wattage used over 48hrs on out 2 fridge freezers and a garage chest freezer.
Of the 2 fridges (frost free) one used around 950watts/24hr with the manufacturer saying 284KW/yr
The other one used 750watts/24hr with the manufacturer saying 311KW/yr
The chest freezer was 550watts/24hr with 221KW/yr
All of mine are less than 8yrs old and your figures if correct you may want to consider replacing it with the rising cost of electricity. 
Link to the type of checker I used. Energenie ENER007 Energy Saving Power Meter Socket


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## houtslager (15 Oct 2022)

John on the Wirral said:


> When my next door neighbour make the early cup of tea in the morning he puts the remaining hot water in a flask for thr mid-morning coffee. Also,you could use the remaining water for washing up.


Being doing similar for yonks, ever since I was in the Army. Any time we boiled up any excess water was put in a flask, or norgies and when doing lots of water into s/s inserts of the hayboxes we used.


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## rs6mra (15 Oct 2022)

Oldman said:


> I have a pass through checker and recently monitored the wattage used over 48hrs on out 2 fridge freezers and a garage chest freezer.
> Of the 2 fridges (frost free) one used around 950watts/24hr with the manufacturer saying 284KW/yr
> The other one used 750watts/24hr with the manufacturer saying 311KW/yr
> The chest freezer was 550watts/24hr with 221KW/yr
> ...


I might look into it at some point but I'm kool with the outcome for now as a fridge freezer is according to the stats expected to use up between 1-2 kWh per day
I decided to monitor mine weekly and the weekly stats included when we were entertaining so both the fridge and freezer were being opened and closed countlessly. Our day to day lives differ quite a bit in our household so I had to look at it on a weekly basis.


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## Sideways (15 Oct 2022)

Got a new glass body kettle with fill markings printed on the side. These are far easier to use than the old one. I can now measure the water well enough that there's only 1/8" spare in the bottom of the kettle after warming and then filling the teapot


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## Spectric (15 Oct 2022)

Our next kettle will have a thermostat because you don't need boiling water, 90 to 98° C is better for black tea and this would save energy because the current kettle gets to 100° C but then continues to boil for 5 seconds until turning off. At 90 I would save a minute per boil so after 60 boils you save an hour.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Oct 2022)

daftdog said:


> I bought an adjustable 7 day timer switch £30 ish had my lecy fit it to the feed of to the combi boiler turn boiler off each evening at 8 and on at 7 next morning object no hunting through the night. Might have to change the off to later when the winter comes.


Not sure if that is such a good idea. Some don't like being turned off by cutting the mains, certainly not on a regular basis, can damage the PCB. I'd be willing to bet the manual tells you to turn the boiler off at its own switch, before turning off at source. If you damage the PCB that's typically 2-300 quid, just for the board. Most also do a start up sequence when you turn the power back on, which involves a quite lengthy burn. So you might actually use more gas doing this. If it hasn't got a built in programmer, then most manufacturers do one specifically for their units, which is any easy retro fit. Then you can have it come on and off whenever you like.


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## Spectric (15 Oct 2022)

You would not do this to a system boiler because they have a pump overun timer so when the demand stops the pump continues to run to prevent kettling and dissipate the heat in the heat exchanger by moving the water round via the recirc line / bypass. If you just killed the power and there had been a demand then the heat exchanger is full of hot water with nowhere to go and this is not good for the modern lightweight boilers, no problem apart from noise with the big old cast iron jobs.

The point about


Fergie 307 said:


> can damage the PCB



When you power up the boiler the software initialises and places the boiler into standby mode ready for operation, it has performed pre checks and gathered required data so it is just waiting for the demand signal. With a switch turning of the supplythen it goes through this process more often for no reason.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Oct 2022)

The kettling is a good point. Not sure why the boiler should be hunting overnight, or what exactly the OP means by that. It will run periodically if necessary to maintain whatever temperature is set on the room thermostat. If you don't want it to do that then just turn the stat down, and turn it up again in the morning. If you fit the manufacturers programmer then you can use that to control when the boiler is active, and it will be designed to work in harmony with the boiler.


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## Spectric (16 Oct 2022)

Here is another thought, we are probably forced to turn on our heating earlier than otherwise needed because when you think about the radiators, they are just large areas of cold metal that must remove heat from a room so in effect actually reducing the temperature below what it would otherwise be. So what the system should do as a minimum is when the heating is off but the room temperature falls below 15° C would be to maintain the water temperature at the same temperature to prevent heat transfer. To prove the point I have been running the heating at 15° C during the day and the house feels warmer than with no heating yet it stated 15° C.


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> Here is another thought, we are probably forced to turn on our heating earlier than otherwise needed because when you think about the radiators, they are just large areas of cold metal that must remove heat from a room so in effect actually reducing the temperature below what it would otherwise be. So what the system should do as a minimum is when the heating is off but the room temperature falls below 15° C would be to maintain the water temperature at the same temperature to prevent heat transfer. To prove the point I have been running the heating at 15° C during the day and the house feels warmer than with no heating yet it stated 15° C.


er - surely the radiator can only cool to room temp and no lower?
When you switch it on cold water will flow though at first, but it's circulating and any heat picked up will come around again.


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## Terry - Somerset (16 Oct 2022)

Strangely I find myself agreeing with Jacob on this one. If the radiators are at room temperature and no water is circulating, there can be no transfer of energy outside the room.

What the radiator full of water does do is increase the thermal mass of the room and make the air temperature somewhat less responsive to changes in external temperature inputs - eg: sunlight on windows, frosty evenings etc.


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## Spectric (16 Oct 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> If the radiators are at room temperature and no water is circulating, there can be no transfer of energy outside the room.


My initial thoughts, but with water having the greater density then there is no energy leaving the room but the mass of water in a radiator can absorb a lot of heat from the air and so in achieving equilibrium the room loses more temperature. On the other hand if there was no radiator in the room then the air would warm up more from external influences such as the sun as there is not heat soak in the form of a radiator so by having just a warm radiator removes this as a heat loss.


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> My initial thoughts, but with water having the greater density then there is no energy leaving the room but the mass of water in a radiator can absorb a lot of heat from the air


Not unless it is colder than the air in the room.


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## johna.clements (16 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> Here is another thought, we are probably forced to turn on our heating earlier than otherwise needed because when you think about the radiators, they are just large areas of cold metal that must remove heat from a room so in effect actually reducing the temperature below what it would otherwise be. So what the system should do as a minimum is when the heating is off but the room temperature falls below 15° C would be to maintain the water temperature at the same temperature to prevent heat transfer. To prove the point I have been running the heating at 15° C during the day and the house feels warmer than with no heating yet it stated 15° C.


The radiators are not cold they are just at around room temperature. Unless water is circulating from a colder place they will track room temperature in the same way as a solid internal partition.

The radiators feel cold because metal transfers heat quickly, what you want in a radiator. When you touch the metal at 15C more heat is transferred from your body than an oak table at 15C. So the radiator feels cold but it is no colder.


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## Spectric (16 Oct 2022)

I think the water without having been heated is colder than the room which is trying to warm up due to external heat, so the air will warm up faster with less energy but the cold radiator is holding it back if that makes sense.


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## johna.clements (16 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> My initial thoughts, but with water having the greater density then there is no energy leaving the room but the mass of water in a radiator can absorb a lot of heat from the air and so in achieving equilibrium the room loses more temperature. On the other hand if there was no radiator in the room then the air would warm up more from external influences such as the sun as there is not heat soak in the form of a radiator so by having just a warm radiator removes this as a heat loss.


The radiators will have thermal mass so will heat up slower than the air when it is warm and hold onto the heat for when you need it when it cools down. But I doubt it will have much significance when compared to the walls floor etc all added together. 

There have been buildings designed with masonry walls that get heated by the sun during the day then give off the heat during the night. Your radiators are likely to work like this but in a very low positive way.


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## Spectric (16 Oct 2022)

johna.clements said:


> So the radiator feels cold but it is no colder


But using a thermocouple to measure the radiator temperature shows it to be 14.5° C at 7 Am. The room reached 15.5 ° at 9.45 as it is in the sun but with the radiator still at 14.5° . Maybe given enough time then you will reach equilibrium but you do need a lot more energy to raise water by 1° than air.


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## johna.clements (16 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> But using a thermocouple to measure the radiator temperature shows it to be 14.5° C at 7 Am. The room reached 15.5 ° at 9.45 as it is in the sun but with the radiator still at 14.5° . Maybe given enough time then you will reach equilibrium but you do need a lot more energy to raise water by 1° than air.


What about the temperature of the brick wall behind the radiator. That will heat up slower than the air as well. And both will cool down slower so releasing heat in the evening.


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## TominDales (16 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> Here is another thought, we are probably forced to turn on our heating earlier than otherwise needed because when you think about the radiators, they are just large areas of cold metal that must remove heat from a room so in effect actually reducing the temperature below what it would otherwise be. So what the system should do as a minimum is when the heating is off but the room temperature falls below 15° C would be to maintain the water temperature at the same temperature to prevent heat transfer. To prove the point I have been running the heating at 15° C during the day and the house feels warmer than with no heating yet it stated 15° C.


Hi all, lots of comment arising on this topic. The physics isn't entirely intuitive, things can feel hotter or cooler but that is due to their ability to conduct heat from our hands, so a radiator feels colder than the soft furnishing do despite being at the same termperature.. However you still have to warm the radiator 9and house) up prior to feeling warm in the morning.

Its not just the radiator that has thermal mass, but all the contents of the house, especially the walls. Most people put the heating on 30 minutes before they get up in the morning. This is to allow all the thermal masses to warm up to get a roughly uniform temp 18c or 20c depending on the level of conform/affordable comfort they want. Its not just the radiator that has cooled overnight, but everything. Similarly at night the heating can go off early as the house will take time to cool down. If the house is very well insulated the the heat wont escape during the night and the heating can come on shortly before rise. This is essential if running a low temperature heating system such as a heat-pump. Many modern heating systems have an outside sensors to help automate the pre-warming time, but its not really necessary in the UK as the outside temperature rarely falls below zero. As Jacob rightly said it makes no difference what the radiator is made off it will be the same temp as the room after sitting in equilibrium for 8 hrs. Yes it will feel cold to touch but that is because the metal conducts heat away from our hands, which are at 34c and we notice the difference.


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## TominDales (16 Oct 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why would anyone insulate the rafters? The roof space should be ventilated so it would be pointless.


If using for work or storage you may want some heat up their. Needs ariing but not a huge draft. However best to insulate the loft space ie the floor if not in use for the reasons Phil says


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## NathanJT (19 Oct 2022)

Other than getting rid of the kids (I jest) the biggest saving we made was to purchase a new tumble dryer. It's a Samsung AAA rated heat pump one and given it's used daily, the monthy bill is less than £5!


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## johna.clements (19 Oct 2022)

NathanJT said:


> Other than getting rid of the kids (I jest) the biggest saving we made was to purchase a new tumble drier. It's a Samsung AAA rated heat pump one and given it's used daily, the monthy bill is less than £5!


I dry my clothes on the line, no £5 per month. As long as you do not need a specific item of clothing and have enough clothes there are no problems. Even in January and February clothes will dry but you may not be able to wash clothes every week.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Oct 2022)

It's good and windy for drying clothes here atm. Unfortunately 99% humidity this morning does no favours.


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## Yojevol (19 Oct 2022)

daftdog said:


> I bought an adjustable 7 day timer switch £30 ish had my lecy fit it to the feed of to the combi boiler turn boiler off each evening at 8 and on at 7 next morning object no hunting through the night. Might have to change the off to later when the winter comes.


@Fergie 307 I have been doing this for 20 years since boiler was new. After it was installed I was perplexed to realise there was no way of stopping the DHW temperature being maintained throughout the night. It was just a waste of energy. 
The boiler is due to be replaced in a few days because the DHW heat exchanger is furred up causing fluctuating output temperature. It will be interesting to see if the new condensing boiler has a DHW timer. 
Brian


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## NathanJT (19 Oct 2022)

johna.clements said:


> I dry my clothes on the line, no £5 per month. As long as you do not need a specific item of clothing and have enough clothes there are no problems. Even in January and February clothes will dry but you may not be able to wash clothes every week.


Agreed, if it can go on the line it does, but with kids that's not always practical. The point being though that a "normal" tumble dryer will cost you anything up to 90p per run at the moment, whereas a decent heat pump version is less than 15p


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## johna.clements (19 Oct 2022)

NathanJT said:


> Agreed, if it can go on the line it does, but with kids that's not always practical. The point being though that a "normal" tumble dryer will cost you anything up to 90p per run at the moment, whereas a decent heat pump version is less than 15p


I have never tried to dry the kids on the line. I think they would object.


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## Spectric (19 Oct 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Even in January and February clothes will dry


Perhaps we need some exchange scheme, your cloths dry whilst up here they will be washed and even blown away but never dried.


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## johna.clements (19 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> Perhaps we need some exchange scheme, your cloths dry whilst up here they will be washed and even blown away but never dried.


Carlisle gets 14.07 days with less than 1mm of rain in January and 11.63 days in February. With 81mm total in January and 69mm in February.

Teignmouth gets 13.13 days and 11.23 days with little rain. And gets 97mm in January and 73 in February.

We get less dry days when we can put our washing out, we also get more rain the rest of the time.

But whilst being dryer up there it is also grimmer. We get about 3 days of air frost against 8.5 day. Plus we get more sun and 65 hours and 87 hours and Carlisle gets 54 and 75 hours. 

When it does stop raining down here we do get more sun to dry our washing









Carlisle (Cumbria) UK climate averages


Carlisle UK climate averages




www.metoffice.gov.uk












Teignmouth (Devon) UK climate averages


Teignmouth UK climate averages




www.metoffice.gov.uk


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## johna.clements (19 Oct 2022)

NathanJT said:


> Agreed, if it can go on the line it does, but with kids that's not always practical. The point being though that a "normal" tumble dryer will cost you anything up to 90p per run at the moment, whereas a decent heat pump version is less than 15p



I would agree that heat pump tumble dryers are the best solution if you are forced to dry indoors more than a few times a year. The capital cost is a lot higher but the break even point has changed drastically in the last year.


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## John Brown (29 Oct 2022)

I was reading somewhere(could have been here..) the other day how leaving the oven door open when you've finished using it would help heat the kitchen. 
I'm trying to figure out what people think would happen to that heat if you left the door closed.


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## johna.clements (29 Oct 2022)

John Brown said:


> I was reading somewhere(could have been here..) the other day how leaving the oven door open when you've finished using it would help heat the kitchen.
> I'm trying to figure out what people think would happen to that heat if you left the door closed.


If the door is shut the oven will release its heat slowly.

The benefit would be in heating the house rather than the kitchen. If you raise the temperature in the kitchen more of the heat will spread especially if you have the door open if not open plan. If you are going to close the kitchen door and not go in there much again you want the heat out of the oven into the kitchen and out the door. 

Slower release and there will be less spread. If you are open plan I would assume that this would be better. You do not want to warm up to above room temperature then feel cold when it falls back. Better slow release back ground heat.

I


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Oct 2022)

I put a meter on my Foodi last night, a dehydrate cycle for jerky. 5hrs 45mins at 60c, 0.88 kWh for about a pound of beef.


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## Spectric (29 Oct 2022)

John Brown said:


> I'm trying to figure out what people think would happen to that heat if you left the door closed.


It would dissipate much slower due to the insulation of the oven and so you would not get the same benefits, same amount of heat just released over a longer time frame. Open the door and you get a larger amount of heat but for a shorter time so you feel that heat. On Neff ovens they say not to leave the door open as it heats the panel above.


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## Markcw (29 Oct 2022)

Like others on here I have led lights I recycle rain water for the washing machine and toilets, I have a 350w pv panel that is grid tied, when the sun is out I batch cook with two slow cookers when possible and freeze down.


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## MikeJhn (30 Oct 2022)

Even though the new Induction hob has the same power rating, it cooks/boils everything much quicker, must be a saving there?


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Oct 2022)

They are more efficient, apparently, because they only heat the pan and not the surrounding area. I wouldn't even go back to gas, they're brilliant.


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## John Brown (30 Oct 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> They are more efficient, apparently, because they only heat the pan and not the surrounding area. I wouldn't even go back to gas, they're brilliant.


We got ours mainly because of grandchildren safety considerations. Although old person safety is becoming a consideration too.
Might be faster and more efficient than gas, but with the gas/electricity price difference it's probably more expensive.


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## pe2dave (30 Oct 2022)

Has anyone switched cooking from hob/oven to an air fryer for some portion of their cooking? Lots around and seem to get good reviews.


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## rogxwhit (30 Oct 2022)

Haven't we discussed those already?


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## johna.clements (30 Oct 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Haven't we discussed those already?


The thread maybe a rotisserie.


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## pe2dave (30 Oct 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Haven't we discussed those already?


Yes, back in 2011. Guessing (hoping) things have moved on since then.


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## Thingybob (30 Oct 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> They are more efficient, apparently, because they only heat the pan and not the surrounding area. I wouldn't even go back to gas, they're brilliant.


Well we finaly took the plunge yesterday we decided to buy a 15 -1 Ninja wifey spent a good hour on tinternet every where sold out one place sold 100 in the last week , We agreed we were not spending more than the average price of £250 . Some places wanted £500 plus but average price was aout £250 to£280 so after about an hour wifey came to me with the question "how much was i willing to pay tops " "£250 we agreed i said " " well i got us one for £185 so i bought a sleeveless jacket too for £30 " still a bargain but dosnt come till 23 rd Nov ( jacket comes tomorrow) but shes a good en. Will keep you posted on our experiance


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## Spectric (30 Oct 2022)

Our 15 in 1 has really saved electricity because we don't use our oven as much, the Ninja does the majority of this and faster so the oven only see's occasional use. Bread in the Ninja is also easy and there are some good books out there, just get one that uses UK measurements as a load use american ones.


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## pe2dave (30 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> Bread in the Ninja is also easy and there are some good books out there, just get one that uses UK measurements as a load use american ones.


I'd be interested in book recommendations please.


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## Spectric (30 Oct 2022)

This is the one we are using






The BIG Metric Ninja Foodi Cookbook: Over 130 recipes using European measurements: Amazon.co.uk: Small, David: 9798706849689: Books


Buy The BIG Metric Ninja Foodi Cookbook: Over 130 recipes using European measurements by Small, David (ISBN: 9798706849689) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.



www.amazon.co.uk


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Oct 2022)

John Brown said:


> Might be faster and more efficient than gas, but with the gas/electricity price difference it's probably more expensive.


There's no mains gas here.


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## John Brown (30 Oct 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> There's no mains gas here.


Can't you cook on Radon?


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Oct 2022)

We've just put the oven on for a fair sized roast, the third time since May.

Bread is easy. Knead and prove as usual, knock back and put it in the basket (on circle of parchment - don't be tempted to do without, the bread will seep through the holes). I left the basket out for the dough to rise when the weather was warmer, but the Foodi uses so little power on "prove" it really isn't worth the trouble. Put it in for 50 mins at 35°. I steam bake for 25 mins at 185°. Works for me.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Oct 2022)

John Brown said:


> Can't you cook on Radon?


I probably could have in my last house - it was eight times over the safety limit.


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## Spectric (30 Oct 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Bread is easy. Knead and prove as usual,


We make the dough and prove in fridge overnight, next morning knock it back and then next prove in Ninja before cooking as usual and also add a small quantity of other flour to the white such as emma, spelt or wholemeal to add flavour.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Oct 2022)

Emmer. I do the same with rye. I go the other way around - second proving overnight in the fridge then straight in the Foodi to bake in the morning, so I have fresh bread in time to do my wife's lunch.


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## hawkeyefxr (31 Oct 2022)

MikeJhn said:


> Even though the new Induction hob has the same power rating, it cooks/boils everything much quicker, must be a saving there?


We got one about two months ago, as you say it is so quick, an inch of water will boil within seconds. Simmering is a breeze as well as it is far easier to control.
And all through a 13amp fuse.


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## Just4Fun (31 Oct 2022)

hawkeyefxr said:


> And all through a 13amp fuse.


Ours gives a choice of wiring schemes. It could run off 13 amp but we have it connected to a 3-phase supply. I don't know what advantage we get from that (if any).


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## charles79130 (31 Oct 2022)

johna.clements said:


> If the door is shut the oven will release its heat slowly.
> 
> The benefit would be in heating the house rather than the kitchen. If you raise the temperature in the kitchen more of the heat will spread especially if you have the door open if not open plan. If you are going to close the kitchen door and not go in there much again you want the heat out of the oven into the kitchen and out the door.
> 
> ...


The oven will cool down quicker if the door is open and the fan stop working thus saving electricity


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## Thingybob (31 Oct 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Emmer. I do the same with rye. I go the other way around - second proving overnight in the fridge then straight in the Foodi to bake in the morning, so I have fresh bread in time to do my wife's lunch.


You old smoothie


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## John Brown (31 Oct 2022)

charles79130 said:


> The oven will cool down quicker if the door is open and the fan stop working thus saving electricity


That's a fair point. Our oven has a choice of fan/no fan, but I guess many do not.


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## Stevekane (1 Nov 2022)

Yojevol said:


> @Fergie 307 I have been doing this for 20 years since boiler was new. After it was installed I was perplexed to realise there was no way of stopping the DHW temperature being maintained throughout the night. It was just a waste of energy.
> The boiler is due to be replaced in a few days because the DHW heat exchanger is furred up causing fluctuating output temperature. It will be interesting to see if the new condensing boiler has a DHW timer.
> Brian


Im not a fan of new boilers feeling that the newer they get the more complex and unreliable they become, perhaps unsupported prejudice on my part but there you are, your post caught my eye because my son had an older combi boiler with very poor hot water performance, his gas fitter mate was all for installing a new boiler as the only cure. I removed the DHW heat exchanger, just a little copper can with a coil inside and cleaned it with kettle descaler with amazeingly good results, so much so that 3 yrs later he sold the property with the old boiler still running fine.


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## John Brown (1 Nov 2022)

Stevekane said:


> Im not a fan of new boilers feeling that the newer they get the more complex and unreliable they become, perhaps unsupported prejudice on my part but there you are, your post caught my eye because my son had an older combi boiler with very poor hot water performance, his gas fitter mate was all for installing a new boiler as the only cure. I removed the DHW heat exchanger, just a little copper can with a coil inside and cleaned it with kettle descaler with amazeingly good results, so much so that 3 yrs later he sold the property with the old boiler still running fine.


I've done to that a couple of times. It's borderline territory re. gas/non gas, as far as I understand.


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## Homeless Squirrel (1 Nov 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I probably could have in my last house - it was eight times over the safety limit.


One for those that block every orifice around house up and live in high Quartz/Granite areas to be mindful of!


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## Spectric (1 Nov 2022)

Stevekane said:


> Im not a fan of new boilers feeling that the newer they get the more complex and unreliable they become, perhaps unsupported prejudice on my part but there you are,


They are certainly nothing like the old baxi's with the gas pilot light and piezo ignitor but weighting a great deal and would run for decades without issues. The way to reduce the issues with complexity is to avoid combi boilers, just a cheap option that seems to be in fashion at the moment. Fit a normal boiler as part of a sealed system with unvented H/W cylinder, Honeywell zone valves and Grunfoss inteligent pump paying attention to the bypass needed for pump over run and it is as good as you can get.


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## Homeless Squirrel (1 Nov 2022)

Fill kettle just to amount needed for task.
Open/vent house in morning then close later for rest of day that way clear the damp claggy air replace with fresher air rather than hitting heat buttons feel warmer.
Turning shower off while washing don't really save as will still run after turn off as needs to cool element or burns out then needs to reheat when turn back on or "Cold" but can always turn down a bit but if sort your life out should be ready to go as soon as wet!
Washing run cooler and use likes of Vanish to clean togs!
Leds higher temps ie Daylight/cool white 6500k plus will give more light than Warm 5000k minus per watt.

But remember if block all the vents/airways etc etc will end up with a damp house and a damp house is never a warm one old house wasn't so bad as had lot's of wood and absorbent areas where as new/Junk builds don't so there often colder and end up damper not always are but feel more unfriendly so perceived more.

Jeans are one of the worst for colder times as hold damp! Around house wear tracksuit/joggie bottoms and decent slipper things ive these furry boots slippers Sobaka's(Russian for furry dog) toasty tootsies. =Warm feet =warmer person.
Another is looser tops rather than tight as loose gets a warmer air cushion.


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## Stevekane (1 Nov 2022)

Your comment above about showers and the system running on to cool down the DHW circuit would only apply I think to more modern combi boilers, and not to regular system ones with a sep hot water cylinder. I wet myself turn off the shower, lather up and then rince off,,Ive often wondered how little water I actually use having a shower,,,it cannot be that much.
Now a more contensious issue,,,
How often does your wife ( or yourself) run the washing machine?
Ours seems to be on every day and there is only the two of us!
Where is all the washing coming from??
You will realise that this is not the sort of thing that can be easily raised on the home front given that Im also on a reduced heating plan campaign for when the heating goes on, but it seems excessive to me.
Steve.


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## Dibs-h (1 Nov 2022)

Changed the shower head from a 20L/min one (which seems common) to one that is limited to about 8L/min - no one in the house has noticed any difference but it consumes less water and ultimately less gas.


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## Stevekane (2 Nov 2022)

Spectric said:


> They are certainly nothing like the old baxi's with the gas pilot light and piezo ignitor but weighting a great deal and would run for decades without issues. The way to reduce the issues with complexity is to avoid combi boilers, just a cheap option that seems to be in fashion at the moment. Fit a normal boiler as part of a sealed system with unvented H/W cylinder, Honeywell zone valves and Grunfoss inteligent pump paying attention to the bypass needed for pump over run and it is as good as you can get.


Yep I think thats the way I will go when the old Potterton Kingfisher finally expires,,to that end Ive just fitted a new Honeywell 3 port valve replaceing a horrible Screwfix Horstmann that was cheap at the time but required constant fiddling around with, so when it started to leak I was happy to see it go. My general concern is that we have a Microbore system and whilst it works just fine we have had to unblock a couple of the pipes where sludge has settled, but its been easy to do with a blast from the garden hose and the rad is once again red hot. So if and when its replaced it will be just an open vented boiler, a good flush out and a filter fitted to try and catch the rubbish,,,,and keep my fingers crossed.
Steve.


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## Just4Fun (25 Nov 2022)

How much electricity does your fridge use?

I am puzzled by this. I pondered getting a new fridge in the black Friday sales, as an energy-saving measure. I have read that old fridges use a lot of electricity. Our current fridge is an old one left by the previous owner of our house when we moved in. It was clearly old even then, and is a full height model, taller than I am. Money was tight and we did not have a fridge so we thought we would use that for a while, or until it failed. Here we are 18 years later, still using it, so I figured it must be really inefficient and a new energy-efficient model would pay for itself quite quickly.

The previous house owner also left a matching freezer but that was hopeless and we ditched it very quickly. It now serves as a cupboard in my very stylish workshop. The fridge, though, just keeps on going.

Anyway, I put an energy meter doohickey on the fridge's socket and it says the fridge uses less than 0.5 Kwh per day. That seems to be better than new fridges. Is my meter wrong? Would you change this fridge?


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## John Brown (25 Nov 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> How much electricity does your fridge use?
> 
> I am puzzled by this. I pondered getting a new fridge in the black Friday sales, as an energy-saving measure. I have read that old fridges use a lot of electricity. Our current fridge is an old one left by the previous owner of our house when we moved in. It was clearly old even then, and is a full height model, taller than I am. Money was tight and we did not have a fridge so we thought we would use that for a while, or until it failed. Here we are 18 years later, still using it, so I figured it must be really inefficient and a new energy-efficient model would pay for itself quite quickly.
> 
> ...


That seems low to me. I'd double check those figures. Having said that, I think a lot of new frost-free appliances are not as efficient as older ones without the frost-free option.


----------



## Homeless Squirrel (25 Nov 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> How much electricity does your fridge use?
> 
> I am puzzled by this. I pondered getting a new fridge in the black Friday sales, as an energy-saving measure. I have read that old fridges use a lot of electricity. Our current fridge is an old one left by the previous owner of our house when we moved in. It was clearly old even then, and is a full height model, taller than I am. Money was tight and we did not have a fridge so we thought we would use that for a while, or until it failed. Here we are 18 years later, still using it, so I figured it must be really inefficient and a new energy-efficient model would pay for itself quite quickly.
> 
> ...


As say's above/below? Frost free suck energy as constantly doing things unlike an old type that froze up top then rest of fridge if kept opening door esp in moist house and putting things in warm as more moisture = more frosted ice.
But if keep on top of fridge you won't have to do a major defrost mind often never have to do for at least 6 months+ so probably still well in front on Leccy.
Many older fridges was better made Beko's used to warm the home up a tad!..................................As caught fire plus compressor unit was dung but if replaced as can do they fridge was actually quite good.

To me better off with a fridge maybe combi and a freezer one with lid on top as cold sinks heat rises so your main freezer will see little opening plus cold stays in = less leccy.
Front door units cold drops out replaced with warm air as all and sundry open door!
If mostly low stocked 5 litre bottles of water or what can fit in provide a more stable environment for chilling effects as the cold is held in them.

Never put open/uncovered items in fridges as a part from them absorbing bacteria present "Drawing action from chilling" leading to food poisoning!
The fridge gets to wear whatever was in items you put inside even more so with frost free types as the moisture gets all around fridge and makes fridge work harder.
Worst is onions and Garlic which both shouldn't be left chopped up for long periods as absorb bacteria but great if unwell chop some up leave around bedroom next day feel better but onions/garlic not so a find black spots on them that is the bacteria.
Salad items like lettuce etc will spread water in fridge but also poison you with Listeria as water goes stagnant =brown bits on lettuce and salad is where you get the Friday night beery Kebab Belly! =Trots! 
Learn't all this when worked in Spitalfields Market as place i worked for prepped food


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## Oldman (26 Nov 2022)

I have 2 fridge/freezers (frost free) both quite old 8-10yrs and the oldest Daewoo uses around 950watts/24hrs or 107watts when running with more on defrost cycle. Mfg says 284kwh/yr

The other a Beko uses 750watts/24hrs with 130watts when running, 172watts on a defrost cycle. Mfg says 311kwh/yr.

I have a Logik chest freezer in the garage which uses 550watts/24hr. Mfg say 222kwh/yr

All test done over several days using Energenie ENER007 Energy Saving Power Meter Socket

To gain perspective I would need to spend £400 plus on a replacement fridge freezer to get the reduction in power use down. around 145kwh/yr.

At current prices my 2 tall fridge freezers cost over £200/yr to run. A single new one would cost £49/yr so dumping the 2 old ones and replacing them with 1 super efficient one should see me on the good side in 3yrs.
Or I can grit my teeth and keep paying twice the amount and keep two perfectly viable fridge freezers, or tell the wife she doesnt need 2 fridge freezers and a chest! I have very deep pockets and extremely short arms btw.


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## Fatherclive (3 Dec 2022)

A mate of mine has put a Wi-Fi power controller on his power supply to the shower so when his kids are in there too long he can just shut it off with or without warning.


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2022)

Insulation Insulation Insulation


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Dec 2022)

It's 2022. How many properties that can be insulated (some can't) aren't by now? Very few, I'd think.


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## niemeyjt (3 Dec 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> Changed the shower head from a 20L/min one (which seems common) to one that is limited to about 8L/min - no one in the house has noticed any difference but it consumes less water and ultimately less gas.


And whilst waiting for the warm water to come through, put the shower head in a bucket to catch the cold water to use in the garden.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Dec 2022)

For various reasons I bath rather than shower. From spring onwards I have a little pump that fits my drill and pump it out either straight onto the garden or into butts.


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## rogxwhit (3 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It's 2022. How many properties that can be insulated (some can't) aren't by now? Very few, I'd think.


Tons, actually. And neither is it a simple tick box - many are insulated inadequately. Another uncomfortable factor is that insulation can be installed inappropriately so that it produces problems (sometimes initially hidden) with condensation dampness and possible mould and rot. 

To many traditional builders, no matter how skilled, insulation and its implications have been an unknown consideration. I remember looking at a timber structure mid-build and saying to the builder 'you'll need a vapour barrier there'. 'Why?' he retorted ...


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## rogxwhit (3 Dec 2022)

Anyway - insulation, led lighting throughout, a modicum of appliances and a modest lifestyle ...

The next step would seem to be stay in bed all day ...


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Dec 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Tons, actually.


Estimated %?


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## rogxwhit (3 Dec 2022)

Dunno, Phil - it's a very wild guess based on personal sampling. I'm not sure much data is available.


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It's 2022. How many properties that can be insulated (some can't) aren't by now? Very few, I'd think.


Many millions by all accounts. Most that have are below standard.


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## John Brown (3 Dec 2022)

From stuff I've read, some houses in foreign parts, such as Scandinavia, are build to such a standard as to cost almost nothing to run. We should have been building houses that way for decades, but we've had cheap energy and weak government.

Back to the original question, I fitted wireless radiator valves just over a year ago, and now we have room by room control of temperatures, but I think it has exacerbated our condensation/mould problems. I'm still thinking of installing a PIV unit, but that might necessitate keeping some doors open, which makes the room by room temperature control a problem. I think the real answer is to win the lottery and turn the heating up a lot...


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## Pedronicus (3 Dec 2022)

Fatherclive said:


> A mate of mine has put a Wi-Fi power controller on his power supply to the shower so when his kids are in there too long he can just shut it off with or without warning.


When our lot were at home I just turned off the shower pump. Left just enough water to rinse themselves off!


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## rogxwhit (3 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I'm still thinking of installing a PIV unit, but that might necessitate keeping some doors open,


I wonder if that's true - after all, they're not sealed, are they, and the pressure should find the gaps? 

Here, I have a heated ground floor with a woodstove but reasonable draughtproofing, and an otherwise unheated upper floor with (trickle) venting. It seems to work, condensation-wise ...


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> .... condensation/mould problems. I'm still thinking of installing a PIV unit, but that might necessitate keeping some doors open, ....


Not unless your doors have been made airtight which is very unlikely, the 1/2" gap at the bottom is enough.
We've got "Passivent" air extraction which is cheap, costs nothing to run and seems highly effective, no condensation except on some windows occasionally, and zero mould


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Many millions by all accounts. Most that have are below standard.


By whose accounts? Many problems are found by people being paid good money to find said problems.

I insulated my first house when we bought it 38 years ago - insulation wasn't a novelty then, why does anyone think for some reason that it is a new problem? My house had 500mm of insulation, it was subsidised at £5 a roll. That was maybe 15 years ago.


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## Stuart Moffat (3 Dec 2022)

My solution for teenage excessive showers was to add a push button timer in the airing cupboard which you had to press before going into the bathroom. You could set different durations on the circuit board, e.g. 2 mins, 5, 10 or 20. worked a treat!


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## John Brown (3 Dec 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> My solution for teenage excessive showers was to add a push button timer in the airing cupboard which you had to press before going into the bathroom. You could set different durations on the circuit board, e.g. 2 mins, 5, 10 or 20. worked a treat!


Mine was a small circuit board with a microcontroller on it, that I'd designed for a client. I repurposed it to turn the shower pump off after a preset time, but gave a pulsed warning before the end of cycle, the idea stolen from my electric toothbrush. It didn't turn the water off, just the pump, but the water pressure was rubbish, so it served its purpose. That was over 20 years ago, and although I tried to explain that if one of them emptied the hot water tank there'd be no more for an hour or so, my teenage stepdaughters thought I was evil.


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## John Brown (3 Dec 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> I wonder if that's true - after all, they're not sealed, are they, and the pressure should find the gaps?
> 
> Here, I have a heated ground floor with a woodstove but reasonable draughtproofing, and an otherwise unheated upper floor with (trickle) venting. It seems to work, condensation-wise ...


True. I have to find some solution, the mould in one or two places is quite distressing...
This side of the house is a 3 or 4 hundred year old barn, and has been fairly well insulated, but with little attention to ventilation. I'm also going to have to do something about the double glazed oak window frames which are not well sealed, and let a bit of water in when the weather's in the wrong direction, but that'll have to wait for next spring.


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## Noel (3 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> By whose accounts? Many problems are found by people being paid good money to find said problems.
> 
> I insulated my first house when we bought it 38 years ago - insulation wasn't a novelty then, why does anyone think for some reason that it is a new problem? My house had 500mm of insulation, it was subsidised at £5 a roll. That was maybe 15 years ago.



Recent figures I saw was something like the majority of homes need insulation or upgraded insulation of some sort to comply with current recommended standards. Doesn't help that many UK homes are pre-war, 30/40% or so.


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## Just4Fun (3 Dec 2022)

This afternoon I made a hay box using some insulation panel I had lying around. I did a simple test with a pot of boiling water and after 3 hours the temperature was 88 Celsius. Not too bad I guess but I was hoping for better. I may add some more insulation and then use it to cook a stew tomorrow.


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## Just4Fun (4 Dec 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> I did a simple test with a pot of boiling water and after 3 hours the temperature was 88 Celsius.


After taking that temperature measurement yesterday I put the lid back on the hay box and left it overnight. I measured again this morning, 13 hours after starting the test. The temperature was 71 Celsius, so not much different 10 hours after the first measurement. I should have taken the temperature of the water at the start of the test; my guess is that it was well below boiling point. I will make a stew in it today.


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## Steve_Scott (4 Dec 2022)

Fatherclive said:


> A mate of mine has put a Wi-Fi power controller on his power supply to the shower so when his kids are in there too long he can just shut it off with or without warning.


A cleverer man would just control the heating element!


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## Homeless Squirrel (4 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It's 2022. How many properties that can be insulated (some can't) aren't by now? Very few, I'd think.


Many dung i mean New builds are just that dung many are already having major issues and not been up long with gaps/cracks/poor construction failures that allow water in and warm air out along with undesirables joining residence!
Was just talking about this hour ago with my friend who builds houses/flats etc with gaps so big you can't even load out with mastics!
We had one house on a windy day heard an odd noise and whole gable collapsed.
See loads where use pre/poorly painted window units/doors/frames done in water based gear thats just all cracked/flaked away so there rotting and letting water into places and mould.
Cavities where been allowed/not checked clear so filled up with muck when laid plus poorly insulated often back handers/dodging costs with nearly naff all put in where could see through it on one.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Dec 2022)

My cousin's house costs next to nothing to heat - it was built 12 - 14 years ago with 250mm cavity insulation and was pressure tested to meet building regs. How do they pressure test with all these gaps?


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## Pineapple (4 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Buy a Ninja Foodi 15 - 1. Cuts your electricity consumption by miles.











Ninja Foodi MAX 15-in-1 SmartLid 7.5L Multicooker | OL750UK - Ninja UK


Ninja Foodi MAX 15-in-1 SmartLid Multi-Cooker 7.5L OL750UK. Unlock 15 functions in one pot, including Pressure Cook, Air Fry, Slow Cook, Grill and Steam.




ninjakitchen.co.uk


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## bryan267 (4 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It's 2022. How many properties that can be insulated (some can't) aren't by now? Very few, I'd think.


My house is a 1900 farmhouse and the loft is decked, so I am slowly installing insulation board under the lime plaster then plasterboarding with 10cm screws to the old joists. Some rooms are ornately decorated with coving so I am stepping away from the coving to add the the decor, leaving me the edges of the room to insulate in the loft.

It's a slow process but I would guess half of homes here on the isle of wight are without decent insulation. I only put double glazing in this year, can't have cavity wall insulation. There is a limit to what I can do here. My extension has glass fibre between the rafters, but has vented the roof space under the insulation, truly amazing. Hoping to strip the roof next year and start again. There are no government grants for this stuff. 

The bathroom is perhaps the best insulated room, I was able to hide foam filled tile backer boards on the external wall made a huge difference.


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## Pineapple (4 Dec 2022)

Pineapple said:


> Ninja Foodi MAX 15-in-1 SmartLid 7.5L Multicooker | OL750UK - Ninja UK
> 
> 
> Ninja Foodi MAX 15-in-1 SmartLid Multi-Cooker 7.5L OL750UK. Unlock 15 functions in one pot, including Pressure Cook, Air Fry, Slow Cook, Grill and Steam.
> ...











Induction Hob Double 2.8kW | Adexa CIC2800


Instant heat at the touch of a button. Whether you're boiling a stock, frying steak or reducing a sauce, this twin tabletop induction cooker provides a reliable and stylish induction cooking surface. The hob features automatic pan detection, meaning power is only applied when the pan is in position.




adexa.co.uk












Commercial Mini Convection Oven with Grid & Rotisserie 60 litres | Adexa TO6002


Toast, Bake, Broil, Grill your dishes! Bargain mini toaster oven suitable for small catering establishments like bars, pubs, small shops and cafes. A great addition to small restaurants and cafes, this professional mini oven is perfectly suited for occasional use in workplaces where space is at




adexa.co.uk


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Dec 2022)

I replaced the faulty Ninja with one of these -


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Instant-Pot-Multicooker-Sousvides-dehydrates/dp/B088M9QK72/ref=sr_1_1?crid=36PY75ZTTWIPL&keywords=instant%2Bpot%2Bduo%2Bcrisp%2B%2B%2Bair%2Bfryer%2B11-in-1%2Bmulticooker%2C%2B8l&qid=1669204600&sprefix=Instant%2BPot%2BDuo%2BCrisp%2B%2B%2BAir%2BFryer%2B11-in-1%2BMulticooker%2Caps%2C65&sr=8-1&th=1



It doesn't bake bread quite so well as the Ninja (it hasn't a "steam bake" function), but it has a s/s pot, a sous vide programme and a delay start which is useful if you're on a reduced rate at night - I did a pan of beef stew - about six good sized portions - last night for about 10p of electricity. It's a lot cheaper than the Ninja as well.


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## Thingybob (4 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I replaced the faulty Ninja with one of these -
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Instant-Pot-Multicooker-Sousvides-dehydrates/dp/B088M9QK72/ref=sr_1_1?crid=36PY75ZTTWIPL&keywords=instant%2Bpot%2Bduo%2Bcrisp%2B%2B%2Bair%2Bfryer%2B11-in-1%2Bmulticooker%2C%2B8l&qid=1669204600&sprefix=Instant%2BPot%2BDuo%2BCrisp%2B%2B%2BAir%2BFryer%2B11-in-1%2BMulticooker%2Caps%2C65&sr=8-1&th=1
> ...


Oh Mr Pascoe you little influencer you. I know you weren't " gifted it" . bought with your"own money"


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## Fatherclive (4 Dec 2022)

Steve_Scott said:


> A cleverer man would just control the heating element!


I think he did it as a lesson to his kids not as a permanent fix, and shutting the power of to an electric shower element is a way to control the heating element albeit a bit harsh.


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## John Brown (5 Dec 2022)

Fatherclive said:


> A mate of mine has put a Wi-Fi power controller on his power supply to the shower so when his kids are in there too long he can just shut it off with or without warning.


If it's an electric shower, then you might need a 32 amp switch. The run of the mill WiFi controlled devices seem to be available as 16 amp or lower. I'm sure there are bigger ones, but probably fairly expensive.


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## Oldman (5 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> If it's an electric shower, then you might need a 32 amp switch. The run of the mill WiFi controlled devices seem to be available as 16 amp or lower. I'm sure there are bigger ones, but probably fairly expensive.


Just use a 5amp wifi one to control a contactor coil, sky's the limit switching Amps wise then


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## John Brown (5 Dec 2022)

Oldman said:


> Just use a 5amp wifi one to control a contactor coil, sky's the limit switching Amps wise then


I wasn't suggesting you couldn't do it. Just making the point that a commonly available WiFi switch, such as the Sonoff, wouldn't be up to the job.


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## NormanB (5 Dec 2022)

hawkeyefxr said:


> We got one about two months ago, as you say it is so quick, an inch of water will boil within seconds. Simmering is a breeze as well as it is far easier to control.
> And all through a 13amp fuse.


I suspect it uses the same amount of energy as anything else (gas/conventional electric) measured in KW/hr. It is physics after all.

In fact if the induction boils the same amount of water faster it could actually be using more energy.


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## NormanB (5 Dec 2022)

NathanJT said:


> Agreed, if it can go on the line it does, but with kids that's not always practical. The point being though that a "normal" tumble dryer will cost you anything up to 90p per run at the moment, whereas a decent heat pump version is less than 15p


That implies a coefficient of performance of 6.0 - which is rather difficult to believe, whereas 4.0 might be.


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## Yojevol (5 Dec 2022)

NormanB said:


> KW/hr


No , it's KW.hr aka a Unit
It's Power times Time, not Power divided by Time


NormanB said:


> In fact if the induction boils the same amount of water faster it could actually be using more energy.


How come?
The faster the heat transfer the shorter the time for energy to escape the system


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Dec 2022)

I understood induction hobs were more efficient as the heat only the pan and not the surrounding area.


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## mikej460 (5 Dec 2022)

You still need the same amount of energy but induction heat up time is comparable to gas so the savings are the energy lost whist the electric element reaches the right temperature. Also if you take a pan off part way through cooking an induction hob instantly switches off whereas an electric hob (or gas for that matter) doesn't.


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## mikej460 (5 Dec 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I understood induction hobs were more efficient as the heat only the pan and not the surrounding area.


Correct, but only if the pan is smaller than the electric ring.


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## Oldman (6 Dec 2022)

I found this interesting re running costs. Is an Induction Hob Expensive to Run? (Average UK Running Costs in 2022) - Chef's Pick


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## John Brown (6 Dec 2022)

Oldman said:


> I found this interesting re running costs. Is an Induction Hob Expensive to Run? (Average UK Running Costs in 2022) - Chef's Pick


There's a ton of irrelevant information there, the only interesting bit is the cost to boil a pan of water. Obviously gas is cheaper, but that's because err.. gas is cheaper.
We bought induction because we have grandchildren of various sizes, and I'm getting to the stage where I might set fire to myself(a good friend of ours set her clothing on fire and sustained serious burns, and she's not infirm or a dementia sufferer). Also, when we decided to buy induction, we didn't know that prices were going to shoot up!


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> There's a ton of irrelevant information there, the only interesting bit is the cost to boil a pan of water. Obviously gas is cheaper, but that's because err.. gas is cheaper.
> We bought induction because we have grandchildren of various sizes, and I'm getting to the stage where I might set fire to myself(a good friend of ours set her clothing on fire and sustained serious burns, and she's not infirm or a dementia sufferer). Also, when we decided to buy induction, we didn't know that prices were going to shoot up!


yes a very rambling and inconclusive article! 
Anyway- as (or if..) we go greener presumably gas will be priced out and electricity will be the future.
One big plus of electric is no need for ventilation and no condensation. Extractor fan can be recirculating and no heat lost. Have discovered that you don't need to buy new filters - they are washable in sugar soap.


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## Just4Fun (6 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> We bought induction because ...


Interesting. We switched over to induction around 2006 or 2007 when we refurbished the kitchen, but I really don't remember why. Gas is not an option here, but why we went for induction over more conventional electric I cannot say. I do like induction though and have since bought induction again, but I don't find them reliable. We have had to replace ours 2 or 3 times, so the average life seems less than for a conventional hob. The last time we bought another I did manage to fix the previous model, so now we have a spare ready for the next failure. That is probably a sure fire way of ensuring the current hob continues indefinitely.

The automatic switch off when the pan is removed is a great safety feature I think, especially as I have been guilty of leaving the ring switched on when I remove a pan. The only down side has been having to change my habbits as I was firmly in the "shake, rattle and roll" school of cookery and initially I found the ring would turn itself off as I worked. I can no longer adjust the temperature of the pan by moving it for a few seconds.


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## Oldman (6 Dec 2022)

Still on boiling or not water, I used to wonder why electric kettles didnt have thermostats fitted to select the cut off point before boiling. A couple of years ago we got one, select your temperature from 60-100deg C. It might not seem a big saving to have the kettle shut off at 90deg or less, but over a year it probably these days would buy you another kettle Example here https://www.currys.co.uk/products/r...et-boil-21040-jug-kettle-silver-10227087.html


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## Sideways (6 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> There's a ton of irrelevant information there, the only interesting bit is the cost to boil a pan of water. Obviously gas is cheaper, but that's because err.. gas is cheaper.
> We bought induction because we have grandchildren of various sizes, and I'm getting to the stage where I might set fire to myself(a good friend of ours set her clothing on fire and sustained serious burns, and she's not infirm or a dementia sufferer). Also, when we decided to buy induction, we didn't know that prices were going to shoot up!


It's easy to measure electricity use, much harder to quantify gas.
Comparing a cheap 2kW portable induction plate with our medium gas rings, the induction was well over twice as fast.
But what's the real consumption of the gas ? We've no way to measure it accurately in small volumes.
I bought the induction to take advantage of free solar energy but even on dull days I SUSPECT the efficiency of the induction vs the lower cost of gas might break even. One cheap portable induction ring for £60 might be a better long term saving than dropping £1000 on a NEF.
One ring for cooking the rice, pasta or steaming veg does a lot. I've only just got an induction wok to find out if it will stir fry.
Cost wise it's hard to compete with a 30 year old gas hob that has never needed a single maintenance visit.


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## Spectric (6 Dec 2022)

An induction wok, when I think of someone using a wok in the traditional enviroment it seems more like a blacksmiths forge surrounded by water with flames leaping into the air !


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## Sideways (6 Dec 2022)

The "wok" burner on our hob is 5kW ? A total wimp.

I saw a great rig in China once. Bicycles with those cast iron, tar boiler type burners fastened to the handlebars. Sellers would wheel them to a street food spot under a flyover each evening, park up, hook up the bottle gas and go for it with huge woks and oil squirted in from a squeezy bottle. Flames 3 feet high !
Delicious.


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## Agent_zed (6 Dec 2022)

I'm just getting all my wood together to make external window shutters. This is for a couple of reasons namely - Keeping heat in in the winter, keeping the heat out in the summer, keeping the light out (have a street lamp over the road so need blackout curtains at the moment), reducing sound (not that important but a potential bonus). I am predicting they will come back into fashion in the coming years.

As for in the house, what a lot of people seem to forget is that as long as the heat isn't leaving the house e.g. a condensing tumble drier then it is pretty much 100% efficient, same with lightbulbs. Also the turning off of a 5w LED bulb is pretty much negligable as you could leave it on for 200hours and it would cost you 1 unit ~35p. Which makes no sense why they keep putting stories about people having to use candles for light. Candles are significantly more epensive than running an LED and likely to burn your house down.


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## Terry - Somerset (6 Dec 2022)

We changed to an induction hob a couple of years ago. It is far more responsive than the previous ceramic hob. And as far as I know works by heating the (iron) pan through induction - the only reason the hob itself gets hot is conduction from the pan/saucepan.

As induction heats the pan rather than losing some of the heat to the surroundings, they are far more efficient than gas in terms of converting kilowatts to useful food heating. However it all gets a bit complicated as the cost per KW is much higher for electricity than gas.


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## MikeJhn (6 Dec 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> The automatic switch off when the pan is removed is a great safety feature I think, especially as I have been guilty of leaving the ring switched on when I remove a pan. The only down side has been having to change my habbits as I was firmly in the "shake, rattle and roll" school of cookery and initially I found the ring would turn itself off as I worked. I can no longer adjust the temperature of the pan by moving it for a few seconds.


Our new Neff induction hob has two large cooking zones that can be used to adjust the temperature by moving the pan up or down the zone, tech moves on.


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## Just4Fun (6 Dec 2022)

MikeJhn said:


> Our new Neff induction hob has two large cooking zones that can be used to adjust the temperature by moving the pan up or down the zone, tech moves on.


That's good to know. If & when I buy my next one I will look for that feature.


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## John Brown (6 Dec 2022)

Agent_zed said:


> As for in the house, what a lot of people seem to forget is that as long as the heat isn't leaving the house e.g. a condensing tumble drier then it is pretty much 100% efficient,


Yes, but that only makes sense if you heat your house with resistive electric heating. Efficiency and cost are not the same thing.


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## Thingybob (6 Dec 2022)

Just took our first loaf out of the Ninja tastes fantastic and quick to make and we know what went into it Lovely Jubbly


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## Scruples (7 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> yes a very rambling and inconclusive article!
> Anyway- as (or if..) we go greener presumably gas will be priced out and electricity will be the future.
> One big plus of electric is no need for ventilation and no condensation. Extractor fan can be recirculating and no heat lost. Have discovered that you don't need to buy new filters - they are washable in sugar soap.


With no ventilation you'd soon reduce the air quality in the space with detrimental effects on the occupants. Natural ventilation would meet the requirements.


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## JimJay (7 Dec 2022)

Agent_zed said:


> I'm just getting all my wood together to make external window shutters. This is for a couple of reasons namely - Keeping heat in in the winter, keeping the heat out in the summer, keeping the light out (have a street lamp over the road so need blackout curtains at the moment), reducing sound (not that important but a potential bonus). I am predicting they will come back into fashion in the coming years.
> 
> As for in the house, what a lot of people seem to forget is that as long as the heat isn't leaving the house e.g. a condensing tumble drier then it is pretty much 100% efficient, same with lightbulbs. Also the turning off of a 5w LED bulb is pretty much negligable as you could leave it on for 200hours and it would cost you 1 unit ~35p. Which makes no sense why they keep putting stories about people having to use candles for light. Candles are significantly more epensive than running an LED and likely to burn your house down.


We have security shutters which are made of aluminium sandwiched around foam insulation board. They seriously reduce sound and heat loss, are pretty much light proof and lower our insurance premiums.


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## Agent_zed (7 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> Yes, but that only makes sense if you heat your house with resistive electric heating. Efficiency and cost are not the same thing.


That is true but it is rarely taken into account when people quote prices to run things e.g

(not real values just for example)

If you say an old style external vented tumble drier costs 80p to run for an hour and a condensing one costs 40p to run for an hour this doesn't take into account that the heat from the condensing unit is kept in the house and will reduce the amount of additional heating required to maintain a room temp. The actual cost would therefore be lower e.g if it saves you 10p on gas it actually only cost you 30p to run. The maths would be pretty hard for me to work out and it will vary depending on the additional heat type. 

Whilst it won't make as much difference for mains gas (as its relatively cheap), it may be more significant if you are on bottled gas for example or as you say electric (my parents are electric only heating).

It's the same for your oven, fridge, freezer, kettle etc


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## Agent_zed (7 Dec 2022)

JimJay said:


> We have security shutters which are made of aluminium sandwiched around foam insulation board. They seriously reduce sound and heat loss, are pretty much light proof and lower our insurance premiums.



Seems to be much more common in other countries than the UK. All of the ski chalets in france have them, although dont know how much that is just traditional looks over efficiency but I assume they do both.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2022)

Scruples said:


> With no ventilation you'd soon reduce the air quality in the space with detrimental effects on the occupants. Natural ventilation would meet the requirements.


I meant no cooker hood blowing hot air straight outside. Instead it it filters it and catches fat on the first grills, and more through the carbon filters and passes the warm air back into the room.


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## NormanB (7 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> yes a very rambling and inconclusive article!
> Anyway- as (or if..) we go greener presumably gas will be priced out and electricity will be the future.
> One big plus of electric is no need for ventilation and no condensation. Extractor fan can be recirculating and no heat lost. Have discovered that you don't need to buy new filters - they are washable in sugar soap.


If you are boiling water you still need extractive ventilation.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2022)

NormanB said:


> If you are boiling water you still need extractive ventilation.


Only if you forget to turn the kettle off.


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## Fergie 307 (7 Dec 2022)

JimJay said:


> We have security shutters which are made of aluminium sandwiched around foam insulation board. They seriously reduce sound and heat loss, are pretty much light proof and lower our insurance premiums.


sound worryingly like the construction of the Grenfell cladding.


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## Agent_zed (7 Dec 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> sound worryingly like the construction of the Grenfell cladding.


Plenty of places were it isn't an issue. Grenfell, sadly, was a bad use of it.


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## Dibs-h (14 Dec 2022)

Went round the house the other evening with a thermal camera - found quite a few cold spots (some known and a few unknown previously). Definitely worth doing if you can get your hands on one.


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## robotmannick (15 Dec 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> Went round the house the other evening with a thermal camera - found quite a few cold spots (some known and a few unknown previously). Definitely worth doing if you can get your hands on one.


I've just ordered one of these on the pretense to do exactly that. If I'm honest, I just wanted a new toy but let's gloss over that!

Where were the areas that surprised you? It may be useful to others who don't have access to a thermal camera if we can provide a list of the main offenders.


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## Dibs-h (15 Dec 2022)

robotmannick said:


> I've just ordered one of these on the pretense to do exactly that. If I'm honest, I just wanted a new toy but let's gloss over that!
> 
> Where were the areas that surprised you? It may be useful to others who don't have access to a thermal camera if we can provide a list of the main offenders.



1. The house has a "vented" crawl space (ranging from 3 feet to 5 feet in places). Rather than fit something that brings the air flow into just the space (some kind of "liner\tube") so as to close the cavity around the vents - the cavity has been vented as well. So there are cold spots on the inside walls above the vents.

2. The inner door to the porch has some kind of vent (8 x 3 in size) at the bottom (can be closed) but being metal on both sides is conducting the cold.

3. Up in the parts of the loft conversion (that aren't part of the habitable bit) although the rafters have kingspan in them (and I never got round plaster boarding them), some have bowed out a bit in the middle of the lengths. Mind you, I've got to pull them out and put another 2 inch in there as the roof was counter-battened after I did the 1 inch kingspan.

4. All the keyholes - all the doors are timber and have mortise locks (got some brush seals for them). A few of the doors have no seals between the door & frame. Fitted a letterbox brush seal thingie already on the inside of the outer door.

5. The "hatch" in the floor to the crawlspace (from the under stairs "cupboard" ) needs "sealing" as the draught is a little noticeable.

6. A few of the Velux windows in the loft conversion - need the "final" detailing doing on the inside. The slightly angled boards that meet the "ceiling" surface need fitting - could foam\insulate the little space behind them.


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## Dibs-h (15 Dec 2022)

The wife did ask me last night - "What's that speed camera looking thingie you were walking round the house with the other night?" I had to chuckle quietly in my head and just say it was a thermal camera.

Then got the "Can I have a go?" and the ensuing giggles as her and my daughter aimed it at each other for 20 mins in the living room. 

Thankfully my daughter isn't of primary school age anymore - I could have imagined getting a phone call from the headteacher as the camera went to school.


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## Garden Shed Projects (15 Dec 2022)

Took a look at my energy bill for the first, it’s in the wife’s name so I never see it. I was pleasantly surprised to discover the recent changes we have made have had a significant reduction in our energy usage. 








Turned the heating down to 18°, started using a Ninja, changed a couple of high use light fittings to led. Unfortunately it doesn’t represent any where near the same financial saving. 

It does beg the question what the hell were we doing last year.?


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## mikej460 (15 Dec 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> Took a look at my energy bill for the first, it’s in the wife’s name so I never see it. I was pleasantly surprised to discover the recent changes we have made have had a significant reduction in our energy usage.
> View attachment 149048
> View attachment 149049
> 
> ...



Smacks of estimated readings to me, you'd need to check last years bills


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## Garden Shed Projects (15 Dec 2022)

We are on a smart meter and it claims to be based on “actual readings”. Is any one else seeing similar savings on their bills?


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## Dibs-h (15 Dec 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> We are on a smart meter and it claims to be based on “actual readings”. Is any one else seeing similar savings on their bills?


Actual savings from perhaps not putting the heating on as much - otherwise none.

I reckon your meter is duff if it is claiming 80% or so reductions in usage. Unless you've been out of the UK (or just the house) for 10 months. LOL


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## ChrisWiduWood (15 Dec 2022)

Bypass the Meter


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## Ozi (15 Dec 2022)

ChrisWiduWood said:


> Bypass the Meter


Bought a house off someone who had done just that - most frightening electrical work I have ever seen, far worse than "professional" electricians - no offense meant to true professionals, I'm sure you still exist just wish I could find you.


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## Stevekane (16 Dec 2022)

Our daughter was telling me about the tiny little Ceramic heaters that just plug into a wall socket like a time switch and about the same size, they are advertised all over the internet and she bought them from Amazon and swears they work really well heating up the front room,,,I really cannot see it, my impression of electeric fires of all types were that they were much the same, all very efficient at turning elect into heat but bloody expensive? I think they are a con but didnt want to deflate her,,,she said all her friends have bought them too. Anyone have any thoughts on these?


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## Oldman (16 Dec 2022)

Here is a bigclive stripdown


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## D_W (16 Dec 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> It does beg the question what the hell were we doing last year.?



when my grandmother turned 80, she went from a life of being stingy to setting the heat exactly where she wanted it, the lights on whether they needed to be or not. 

She referred to what you were doing last year as "letting the good times roll"


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## John Brown (17 Dec 2022)

Stevekane said:


> Our daughter was telling me about the tiny little Ceramic heaters that just plug into a wall socket like a time switch and about the same size, they are advertised all over the internet and she bought them from Amazon and swears they work really well heating up the front room,,,I really cannot see it, my impression of electeric fires of all types were that they were much the same, all very efficient at turning elect into heat but bloody expensive? I think they are a con but didnt want to deflate her,,,she said all her friends have bought them too. Anyone have any thoughts on these?


They work, but all resistive heaters are 100% efficient. The advertising is misleading at best, and downright dishonest at worst. Find the Radio 4 potcast "Sliced bread" for the lowdown.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Dec 2022)

I started a thread on these a while ago but can't remember the title.


Stevekane said:


> Our daughter was telling me about the tiny little Ceramic heaters that just plug into a wall socket like a time switch and about the same size, they are advertised all over the internet and she bought them from Amazon and swears they work really well heating up the front room,,,I really cannot see it, my impression of electeric fires of all types were that they were much the same, all very efficient at turning elect into heat but bloody expensive? I think they are a con but didnt want to deflate her,,,she said all her friends have bought them too. Anyone have any thoughts on these?











Power saving?


Any views on this? :) https://www.nativediscount.com/en/volt-box/checkout/?click_id=dadaj36kmquh8hhki9mmmk1o




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2022)

Heating the Workshop has been my biggest issue, we have 2 x 15kw heaters, 30kw x 9hrs/day x 6 days a week =1620 kw a week @46p/unit

I buy the chaps uniform anyway but this year I have bought them bodywarmers, hoodies, hats etc and tiny bench heaters and try and keep main heating to a minimum.

Home is fine, been running log burner 24hrs a day (free wood).


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## John Brown (17 Dec 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Heating the Workshop has been my biggest issue, we have 2 x 15kw heaters, 30kw x 9hrs/day x 6 days a week =1620 kw a week @46p/unit
> 
> I buy the chaps uniform anyway but this year I have bought them bodywarmers, hoodies, hats etc and tiny bench heaters and try and keep main heating to a minimum.
> 
> Home is fine, been running log burner 24hrs a day (free wood).


I was surprised to learn that industrial users pay higher electricity prices than domestic users. I'd always assumed buying in bulk was cheaper.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Dec 2022)

No, they can be paying way, way more - there's no cap, commercially. I read only this week a large local pub's bill is £9,000 a month.


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## Oldman (17 Dec 2022)

While I admit to penny pinching lights left on and ive set the gas boiler to set back to 18 deg at night to try as best I can to keep the costs down with just two of us in a 3 bed detached.
I just got my biggest energy bill yet. £130 Electric & £169 Gas Total £299 for 31 days.
I had the heating on 24/7 last year @22 deg wont be doing that again!
Makes a hole in the standard gov pension so god knows how those on benefits will fare.


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## John Brown (18 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> From stuff I've read, some houses in foreign parts, such as Scandinavia, are build to such a standard as to cost almost nothing to run. We should have been building houses that way for decades, but we've had cheap energy and weak government.
> 
> Back to the original question, I fitted wireless radiator valves just over a year ago, and now we have room by room control of temperatures, but I think it has exacerbated our condensation/mould problems. I'm still thinking of installing a PIV unit, but that might necessitate keeping some doors open, which makes the room by room temperature control a problem. I think the real answer is to win the lottery and turn the heating up a lot...


Well I bit the bullet and bought a Nuaire Drimaster PIV unit. I had a spot picked out for it, and pulled up some boarding in the attic - rather difficult as it's that interlocking chipboard flooring.

The unit arrived the day after I made the order, and, reading the instructions, I found out the vent should be a minimum distance from a wall. Had to rethink it, and destroy some more flooring. Invented a few new swear words try to coerce the ducting onto the spigots, and temporarily connected up via a SafeBloc.
That was Thursday. Friday we went to Surrey for a couple of nights, got back this afternoon, and I've never seen the bedroom windows so dry.
Early days yet, but I'm very pleased, as part of me expected to be very disappointed.


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## Dibs-h (Monday at 23:16)

Did the last thing a weekend ago - swapped out the 20W halogens in the cooker hood for some 1.5W LEDs. Thought I might have to mess about with the wiring if the halogens were 240V and fit an LED driver, thankfully not. Fitted with no issues and the glass\bezels went straight back on.

The only barely noticeable thing is that the power supply to the lights must not be on par with an LED driver, so there is a very minor flickering from the LEDs. Barely noticeable.

So now, if on the laptop at the dining room table and the Mrs leaves the cooker hood lights on and wonders off for 20 mins into the living room - I don't get into a huff and roll my eyes (in my mind)


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## Keith 66 (Tuesday at 09:08)

Stevekane said:


> Our daughter was telling me about the tiny little Ceramic heaters that just plug into a wall socket like a time switch and about the same size, they are advertised all over the internet and she bought them from Amazon and swears they work really well heating up the front room,,,I really cannot see it, my impression of electeric fires of all types were that they were much the same, all very efficient at turning elect into heat but bloody expensive? I think they are a con but didnt want to deflate her,,,she said all her friends have bought them too. Anyone have any thoughts on these?



They are an absolute con, It is nothing more than a wall mounted hairdryer & made from flimsy plastic. I wonder how long it will be before one burns a house down?
You would be better off with a 250 watt infra red poultry lamp. Half the running cost & warms what the light hits.


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## Jacob (Tuesday at 09:25)

Fitted draught brushes to all doors. That 10mm is a big gap and we can feel the difference. 
Draught control and insulation are the most cost effective of all.


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## Dibs-h (Tuesday at 11:21)

Jacob said:


> Fitted draught brushes to all doors. That 10mm is a big gap and we can feel the difference.
> Draught control and insulation are the most cost effective of all.


You've reminded me Jacob - still got those to fit.


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## Fergie 307 (Yesterday at 13:27)

Dibs-h said:


> Did the last thing a weekend ago - swapped out the 20W halogens in the cooker hood for some 1.5W LEDs. Thought I might have to mess about with the wiring if the halogens were 240V and fit an LED driver, thankfully not. Fitted with no issues and the glass\bezels went straight back on.
> 
> The only barely noticeable thing is that the power supply to the lights must not be on par with an LED driver, so there is a very minor flickering from the LEDs. Barely noticeable.
> 
> So now, if on the laptop at the dining room table and the Mrs leaves the cooker hood lights on and wonders off for 20 mins into the living room - I don't get into a huff and roll my eyes (in my mind)


If there are multiple lights the flickering can often be cured by leaving one halogen in place, and changing the remainder to led.


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## Fitzroy (Yesterday at 13:40)

Keith 66 said:


> They are an absolute con, It is nothing more than a wall mounted hairdryer & made from flimsy plastic. I wonder how long it will be before one burns a house down?
> You would be better off with a 250 watt infra red poultry lamp. Half the running cost & warms what the light hits.


After being spammed by the add on so many different platforms, with multiple sob stories about different inventors being shut down by big energy i had to go do some investigation. I was left gob-smacked over what it was and what is was claiming to do. The advert is a con and should be illegal.


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## Dibs-h (Yesterday at 14:47)

Fergie 307 said:


> If there are multiple lights the flickering can often be cured by leaving one halogen in place, and changing the remainder to led.


I thought about that but the flickering is barely noticeable so left both LEDs in - 3W total consumption vs 21.5W.


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## whereistheceilidh (Yesterday at 14:47)

Dibs-h said:


> Did the last thing a weekend ago - swapped out the 20W halogens in the cooker hood for some 1.5W LEDs. Thought I might have to mess about with the wiring if the halogens were 240V and fit an LED driver, thankfully not. Fitted with no issues and the glass\bezels went straight back on.
> 
> The only barely noticeable thing is that the power supply to the lights must not be on par with an LED driver, so there is a very minor flickering from the LEDs. Barely noticeable.
> 
> So now, if on the laptop at the dining room table and the Mrs leaves the cooker hood lights on and wonders off for 20 mins into the living room - I don't get into a huff and roll my eyes (in my mind)


Careful the flickering does not put you to sleep at the cooker......just sayin.....


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## Stuart Moffat (Yesterday at 14:56)

Dibs-h said:


> Did the last thing a weekend ago - swapped out the 20W halogens in the cooker hood for some 1.5W LEDs. Thought I might have to mess about with the wiring if the halogens were 240V and fit an LED driver, thankfully not. Fitted with no issues and the glass\bezels went straight back on.
> 
> The only barely noticeable thing is that the power supply to the lights must not be on par with an LED driver, so there is a very minor flickering from the LEDs. Barely noticeable.
> 
> So now, if on the laptop at the dining room table and the Mrs leaves the cooker hood lights on and wonders off for 20 mins into the living room - I don't get into a huff and roll my eyes (in my mind)


Dibs-h. Could you post a link to the leds that worked for you? I also have 20w halogens in the cooker hood, and have bought LEDs to replace them 3 times… but they were all too fat for the glass to go back in, so not approved by swmbo.


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## Dibs-h (Yesterday at 16:58)

Stuart Moffat said:


> Dibs-h. Could you post a link to the leds that worked for you? I also have 20w halogens in the cooker hood, and have bought LEDs to replace them 3 times… but they were all too fat for the glass to go back in, so not approved by swmbo.


Here you go mate:









LAP G4 Capsule LED Light Bulb 180lm 1.5W 12V 4 Pack


Order online at Screwfix.com. Ideal replacement for Halogen bulbs. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 5 minutes.



www.screwfix.com





The LED ones are 5mm longer and 2mm bigger in diameter than standard G4's.


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## Dibs-h (Yesterday at 17:09)

Direct comparison:


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## Stevekane (Yesterday at 18:04)

Keith 66 said:


> They are an absolute con, It is nothing more than a wall mounted hairdryer & made from flimsy plastic. I wonder how long it will be before one burns a house down?
> You would be better off with a 250 watt infra red poultry lamp. Half the running cost & warms what the light hits.


Many thanks Keith and Fitzroy, just as I thought but I suppose clever marketing at a time when were all looking to save money,,as you say it should not be allowed.
BTW I like the chicken lamp idea, the thought of her sitting under a poultry lamp like a broody hen is quite apealing!
Steve.


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## Lefley (Today at 05:28)

put all electronics, etc that stay plugged in all day and night. on remote switches or pull plugs at night. You will Save 10%.


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