# My Last Post Here !!!!



## Lord Nibbo (18 Oct 2014)

OK I've not visited UKWorkshop for some time and quite a lot of rules have been implemented during that time that I'm not aware of. So after two posts recently I've had two emails, one email explaining that I needed to add prices to items I was selling, that's fair enough. The second email stating my original selling post had been removed because I had placed the items on Ebay. Now if I had had an email explaining the breach of another rule I would have gladly removed the offending post myself...... But after contributing so many build threads to this forum over the years I think I deserved better treatment than just removing my advert in the selling forum. So you won't be seeing anything from me again here. Sorry, I will miss visiting the UKWorkshop forum but if the trend is to alienate old members in this way I see no point in being a member here.

Bye.

Lord Nibbo.


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## Paul Chapman (18 Oct 2014)

Very sorry that you won't be posting here in future, your Lordship. I've really enjoyed your stuff over the years.

Best wishes.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## wizard (18 Oct 2014)

What is the problem with selling a tool on here on a fixed price as well as on eBay you could advertise it here cheaper and still make the same profit


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## Walney Col (18 Oct 2014)

It has to be said that the selling rules in particular are at least a wee bit anal and not necessarily what the users would like.


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## RogerP (18 Oct 2014)

wizard":1v5y8s4o said:


> What is the problem with selling a tool on here on a fixed price as well as on eBay you could advertise it here cheaper and still make the same profit


Agreed.

eBay and PayPal between them now take roughly 15% of the total price to the buyer including the shipping costs. 

So selling on here is much cheaper and there's only a few rules to stick to - have you seen eBay's rules and requirements? They'd fill a small book!


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## rdesign (18 Oct 2014)

I think a rule should be brought in that no posts r allowed if the author won't contribute to them.... 

In all seriousness tho, U seem like u used the site for projects and ur hobbies, so one post removed that u were selling somewhere else has pineappled u off this much that u have to leave?? seems abit dramatic with the give me attention post to go along with it.. the selling rules were made because they were needed, didn't want the site used to get the most money out of this community but give great tools for a sensible and fare price . ebay is a get as much as someone will pay site some times it works some times it doesn't. I love the forum and wish i was in the uk to be close to some of the great tools sold for great prices a table saw is a fine example thats up right now. 

Regards Richard


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## Noel (18 Oct 2014)

Walney Col":3fenv0wr said:


> It has to be said that the selling rules in particular are at least a wee bit anal and not necessarily what the users would like.



And what, _in your opinion_, would you like to see changed?




wizard":3fenv0wr said:


> What is the problem with selling a tool on here on a fixed price as well as on eBay you could advertise it here cheaper and still make the same profit



Read the Market Place rules and you'll find out. You'll also find out why the For Sale board was established and you'll also find out that "profit" doesn't come in to it.
Advertising "cheaper"? What's cheaper than free?

The board has been very popular since it started and I do find it strange that those you have benefited from it in one way or another complain about it. As RP and RD have mentioned it's not a bad place to dispose of unwanted WW items. Some simple guidelines and a measure of respect makes it work well.


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## wizard (18 Oct 2014)

Just read the rules they are not user helpful at all whoever thought them up must be power mad or a traffic warden. Glad i have read them i will now stick to selling my items on eBay, i buy collect and sell tools as a hobby not as a way of getting rich.


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## Walney Col (18 Oct 2014)

wizard":2abkvb53 said:


> Just read the rules they are not user helpful at all whoever thought them up must be power mad or a traffic warden.


I agree. To my mind the rules represent the viewpoint (and cater to the interest of) a distinct minority of users, and interfering with a post by demanding that a price be specified when the person offering the item might well have no idea of it's value to other people is just plain silly.

Col.


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## Doug B (18 Oct 2014)

The rules were made to prevent the shenanigans that went on previously, if you can't be bothered to read the rules before you post something for sale then the fault lies with you, simple.

Having a hissy fit just because your post is removed is pathetic, in this case it broke more than one rule & I can't fault the mod team removing it. The rules should be upheld whoever you are regardless of your post count or length of membership here, that makes it fair for everyone which is the point of having rules.

If you don't like it sell your goods elsewhere, I for one think this is an excellent place to sell gear, not only is it free, but you also have an audience that is interested in what you are selling.


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## doctor Bob (18 Oct 2014)

Doug B":ljkoje4z said:


> The rules were made to prevent the shenanigans that went on previously, if you can't be bothered to read the rules before you post something for sale then the fault lies with you, simple.
> 
> Having a hissy fit just because your post is removed is pathetic, in this case it broke more than one rule & I can't fault the mod team removing it. The rules should be upheld whoever you are regardless of your post count or length of membership here, that makes it fair for everyone which is the point of having rules.
> 
> If you don't like it sell your goods elsewhere, I for one think this is an excellent place to sell gear, not only is it free, but you also have an audience that is interested in what you are selling.



Agreed............ smacks a bit of "don't you know who I am".


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## vally bar (18 Oct 2014)

I have had surplus tools for sale removed because I earn my living as a woodworker (not selling machines or tools) work that one out I couldn't.


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## Mr_P (18 Oct 2014)

vally bar":2zvfqzpb said:


> I have had surplus tools for sale removed because I earn my living as a woodworker (not selling machines or tools) work that one out I couldn't.



Don't think that's the reason they were removed since other professionals post in the for sale section.

Nibbo,

As you say you don't post much anymore, so bit of an empty threat.

Stunning chess set btw but that was 2012.


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## Noel (18 Oct 2014)

It's not that important and it may assist other members but I think LN's opening post was not a true reflection of what happened. 
After he started a thread with a list of items for sale without prices I posted this in the thread:



> Hi LN.
> 
> Can you please edit your post to include prices etc as per rules. Realise you haven't been around much recently so I'll leave the post up for a little while.



LN posts again with prices, all is well. Then he announces that he's listed items on eBay. He then receives a pm:



> Your post has been moved.
> 
> 
> 5 –Allowed Sales Posts.
> ...



All seems quite reasonable and if LN wasn't aware of "new" rules such as prices etc he really should've had a look to see if there were any other rules that he wasn't aware of once made aware of matters - if's there one, there might be more, but like finding a coin down the back of the couch.........That particular rule regarding eBay, Gumtree etc has been in place for over 3 years.


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## Walney Col (18 Oct 2014)

IMO the sales-related rules in particular require an unreasonable amount of research and/or memory, are not instinctive or obvious, are not in the best interest of the majority, and are routinely overlooked and/or not enforced presumable depending on who the poster is and who's on moderation duty.


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## doctor Bob (18 Oct 2014)




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## Mr_P (18 Oct 2014)

Doctor Bob,

That's gross TEA and that one looks particularly bad.


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## wizard (18 Oct 2014)

I hope you are not trying to sell that cup of tea it’s in breach of the rules :lol:


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## deserter (18 Oct 2014)

I think the rules re sales are fine, my opinion only. 
However it is worth remembering this is a forum, owned by a person. That persons rules are the ones we abide by, full stop. This is not a democracy, nor anything else. At the end of the day, if you don't like any or all of the rules ad set out, move along to another forum.
I happen to think the rules work here, we have a good bunch of people, we have lively debate and a lot of knowledge, take away the rules and see how long it takes to fall apart.


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## cutting42 (19 Oct 2014)

I find the whole "I'm leaving" type of threads a bit bizarre. Kind of a cry looking for a bunch of people to say"oh please don't go as you are so important"!

Just stop posting, its very easy and you don't end up looking like you are throwing your toys out of the pram. Sad way to end your posting record here.


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## vally bar (19 Oct 2014)

Message subject:	Your topic has been deleted
From:	Noel
Sent:	Nov 03, 2012 4:56pm
To:	vally bar 
Message

Hi,

One of your topics called Machines for sale has been deleted

Reason for deleting your topic: As per board rules commercial sales are not allowed.

Please reply this message if you've got any further questions.
--------------

Well that's the reason I was given, so it would seem the rules are flexible dependent on who you are.


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## nanscombe (19 Oct 2014)

vally bar":1k39zf0k said:


> Message subject:	Your topic has been deleted
> From:	Noel
> Sent:	Nov 03, 2012 4:56pm
> To:	vally bar
> ...






vally bar":1k39zf0k said:


> I have had surplus tools for sale removed because *I earn my living as a woodworker* (not selling machines or tools) work that one out I couldn't.



So you were selling commercially used tools rather than hobbyist tools then.


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## Stu_2 (19 Oct 2014)

I can't see what difference that makes?


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## RogerS (19 Oct 2014)

One rule I don't see the rationale for is the one that says you can't advertise for sale on this forum and, say, on eBay.

Nor do I see any harm in someone like vally bar, who makes a living from woodworking, selling the odd tool that is surplus to requirements. I would have thought members would benefit rather than being in the free-for-all at eBay.


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## nanscombe (19 Oct 2014)

Stu_2":gyrow2tk said:


> I can't see what difference that makes?



Maybe a (subtle) difference in meaning.

Tools sold by an individual (hobbyist)
Tools sold by, or on behalf of, a company (possibly sole trader)


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## Stu_2 (19 Oct 2014)

That's how I interpret it. Commercial would be tool or equipment sellers, not the tradesmen who use them.


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## RogerS (19 Oct 2014)

Stu_2":3ta7nczs said:


> That's how I interpret it. Commercial would be tool or equipment sellers, not the tradesmen who use them.



+1

Tradesmen are the very people that contribute to this forum. They shouldn't be made to feel like lepers if they want to sell a surplus plane.


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## Stu_2 (19 Oct 2014)

RogerS":1onfnuel said:


> One rule I don't see the rationale for is the one that says you can't advertise for sale on this forum and, say, on eBay.
> 
> Nor do I see any harm in someone like vally bar, who makes a living from woodworking, selling the odd tool that is surplus to requirements. I would have thought members would benefit rather than being in the free-for-all at eBay.


I understand why this rule exists, and am pleased it does on here. It stops people (both us and eBay members) getting messed about. I've seen it turn messy on other forums.


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## CHJ (19 Oct 2014)

One subtle difference that has raised itself in the past is commercial companies trying to trade their commercial equipment surpluses (with or without vat) for free on a volunteer run and privately funded forum aimed at helping others and sharing ideas and inspiration. Hence why some of the post number restrictions to reduce such spam were put in place.
Someone amongst the volunteer crew has from time to time make a judgement call based on previous forum history and what is perceived as pushing the boundaries of the rules, this is often done with the aid of internet searches of information in the public domain and a knowledge of several admin log records of passed events.

I personally can say that there are more instances of flexibility being applied than otherwise.


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## CHJ (19 Oct 2014)

There is nothing stopping a commercial enterprise that has the ability to offset its expenses and tax liabilities from using the forum facilities for sales promotion, just don't expect to do it for free without contributing to the costs of running the forum.


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## Lons (19 Oct 2014)

I've used the sale board very rarely and see nothing wrong with the rules really and tbh if anyone wanted to flout them (I haven't btw), by listing on ebay as well then it's possibly unlikely that would be picked up if the seller didn't say so.

I'm a sole trader as well as a serious hobbyist woodworker, some of my tools are therefore used both privately and commercially and I'd be a bit peeved if I wanted to sell for example a plane or set of chisels and was stopped from doing so for that reason.
The mods are in a no win situation however and you can't please all of the people etc. as said, it's a free service to likeminded members, the kind of target audience advertisers pay millions to access and it's a free service to us so what's the problem!

cheers
Bob


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## RogerS (19 Oct 2014)

Lons":p650c26x said:


> ..... by listing on ebay as well then it's possibly unlikely that would be picked up if the seller didn't say so.
> .....



Don't you believe it. There are enough petty-minded people around who will go out of their way to 'out' on the open forum someone making an innocent mistake rather than sending them a PM.


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## JohnPW (19 Oct 2014)

Walney Col":7u1f9ptz said:


> IMO the sales-related rules in particular require an unreasonable amount of research and/or memory, are not instinctive or obvious, *are not in the best interest of the majority*, and are routinely overlooked and/or not enforced presumable depending on who the poster is and who's on moderation duty.



In your opinion. 

The rules are quite simple:
must have price
private only
no Ebay links.

As for the OP, no one is going to miss your future non-existent posts!


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## vally bar (19 Oct 2014)

Message subject:	Re: Your topic has been deleted
From:	Noel
Sent:	Nov 03, 2012 7:47pm
To:	vally bar 
Message

Hi, you're a business disposing of equipment. Please read the guidelines here:

market-place-guidelines-please-read-before-posting-28-10-12-t54359.html

and specifically item 1.

Thanks

Noel



vally bar wrote:
Please clarify a Comercial sale. I am a woodworker selling redundant and or surplus tools owned by myself. 
I am not a dealer. Take a look at me at http://www.rushworth.uk.com


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## vally bar (19 Oct 2014)

One rule for selling Festool kids toys and another for the real thing.


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## Walney Col (19 Oct 2014)

JohnPW":2vkrj77l said:


> The rules are quite simple:
> must have price
> private only
> no Ebay links.


They're not the rules.
These are the rules, or at least part of em...


Noel":2vkrj77l said:


> It is in everybody's interests that the Market Place board runs as efficiently and orderly as possible. This will only happen if members read and adhere to our guidelines. The facility is totally free so please read the guidelines and post accordingly and do not abuse the service.
> New members need a post count of at least 20 to create threads in the For Sale section.
> Attempts to circumvent the above restrictions with gratuitous posts elsewhere will risk all such posts and the subsequent For Sale Post being removed.
> As items move quickly within the For Sale board a member can bump such a thread back up to the top just once.
> ...


Like I said, far too complicated and open to personal misinterpretation by poster OR moderator.

Col.


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## Doug B (19 Oct 2014)

The problem is Col that the rules were implemented in the first place because of all the falling out that used to happen, so whilst you might not like them previous history meant they became necessary, it's a shame that we need them but the facts are we do.


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## RogerS (19 Oct 2014)

Doug B":37waizxh said:


> The problem is Col that the rules were implemented in the first place because of all the falling out that used to happen, so whilst you might not like them previous history meant they became necessary, it's a shame that we need them but the facts are we do.



But Doug, WoodworkUK doesn't have a list of For Sale rules, does it? And that seems to work just fine.


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## CHJ (19 Oct 2014)

vally bar":3cq90r1w said:


> One rule for selling Festool kids toys and another for the real thing.





vally bar":3cq90r1w said:


> Hi all I am having a clear out of duplicated and not used machinery, all static machines are 3 phase and all are connected so any trial welcome.
> *All located in Liverpool at our works near Aintree Race course *so just of the M57. Collection only we will assist with removal and have a fork lift available.
> The sanders are 240 and I have 2 floor sanders and 1 edge sander both with very little use.
> I have 5 of the 45% Porta nailers with hammers and 1 of the 90% nailer with hammer.
> ...



I think most members would have interpreted the above thread as being commercial!!


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## Doug B (19 Oct 2014)

RogerS":x1hkhl6e said:


> Doug B":x1hkhl6e said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is Col that the rules were implemented in the first place because of all the falling out that used to happen, so whilst you might not like them previous history meant they became necessary, it's a shame that we need them but the facts are we do.
> ...



I really don't think the forums are comparable, the same problems did come up on both but are dealt with differently, here they came up with rules there they just abuse sellers :lol:


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## CHJ (19 Oct 2014)

RogerS":3ic3sa55 said:


> Doug B":3ic3sa55 said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is Col that the rules were implemented in the first place because of all the falling out that used to happen, so whilst you might not like them previous history meant they became necessary, it's a shame that we need them but the facts are we do.
> ...


Perhaps forums that don't have on average 150+ persons viewing at any one time, or 200 post and 18 topics per day don't have enough traffic to need help policing.


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## vally bar (19 Oct 2014)

Chas it only classed as comercial if you only have a minimal.kit we do not.


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## vally bar (19 Oct 2014)

So should 3 phase kit be banned from for sale as it's very obviously commercial
Also can we stop Sados whinging about their birds doing one, As it's definitely off topic.


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## Mr_P (19 Oct 2014)

vally bar":35jwvnef said:


> So should 3 phase kit be banned from for sale as it's very obviously commercial
> Also can we stop Sados whinging about their birds doing one, As it's definitely off topic.



Can't believe you said that.

ermm wrong in metalwork perhaps but in General

General Chat (Off-Topic) 
For non-woodworking related topics - yes I know it's a scary thought but there is a life outside woodworking


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## RogerS (19 Oct 2014)

vally bar":1wixf675 said:


> So should 3 phase kit be banned from for sale as it's very obviously commercial
> Also can we stop Sados whinging about their birds doing one, As it's definitely off topic.



Oh, stop being so childish. You were having a clear-out of your business. You may or may not have known about the rules but once pointed out to you, did you let it go and accept it? No. Instead you're trying it on. You've lost any sympathy I might have had for your case.

If the stuff was your own private kit then why are you charging VAT?

Man up. Move on.


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## Walney Col (19 Oct 2014)

CHJ":1te5douy said:


> I think most members would have interpreted the above thread as being commercial!!


Regardless of whether it's commercial I for one would have welcomed the opportunity to buy some quality used equipment from someone who knows what they're talking about

And that's just one of the reasons why the current rules don't necessarily work in the best interests of the majority of members.

In any case I personally would only have deemed that post "commercial" if it was common knowledge that the seller's regular income was derived from *selling machine tools*... if he sells ice creams for a living or (in this case) wooden products then FOR HIM it's not his regular source of income and therefore non-commercial even if the proceeds from old tooling have no option but to attract VAT and go through his business account.

Col.


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## t8hants (19 Oct 2014)

Living on the IOW most items advertised here would be impractical for me to go for, unless small, so I claim partial neutrality. 
Speaking as a potential BUYER, all I am interested in is, what, how much, and where with some photos so I can decide if I like it. 
I am not interested in the fact the seller may have a 100 tons of surplus timber, or sheds full of surplus gear, that is of no consequence to me. 
Likewise if the seller is an amateur disposing of a redundant item, thats nice and good luck to him. 
Should the item be on ebeach then all I want is if I buy through this forum then it is mine, and not an entry into a standard on line auction. 
I would be concerned if the rules no matter how well meaning, are preventing me having access to items of interest at a price I may like. 
The rules should assist and protect both parties, and as long as the item is what it claims, and does what it claims, at a price agreeable to both, why are there further seller restrictions. If someone wants to make their living flogging reasonable priced gear to forum members - why not? 

Gareth slinking back into his corner.


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## Walney Col (19 Oct 2014)

Well put Gareth. I think that's an excellent summary of how most members would feel.

Col.


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## doorframe (19 Oct 2014)

Walney Col":12bli48w said:


> Well put Gareth. I think that's an excellent summary of how most members would feel. Col.
> 
> Like I said, far too complicated and open to personal misinterpretation by poster OR moderator.



Really? Well, it's not an excellent summary of how I feel.

Whoever the seller is, +VAT = commercial. Simple. Go sell it on Ebay and PAY THE FEES!

Oh, sorry. Ebay don't allow +VAT, do they? But you think it's OK on here?

Rules are rules. If you don't like it (or can't understand it #-o ), that's your problem.

Stop moaning about it and move on.


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## CHJ (19 Oct 2014)

t8hants":2qal56i7 said:


> If someone wants to *make their living flogging reasonable priced gear to forum members - *why not?


As said before there is nothing stopping someone in bussiness, private or commercial, from using the option of a premier post.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/premier-posts

Expecting a privately funded and voluntary administered forum to provide the facility free of charge is a bit nieve.


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## Walney Col (19 Oct 2014)

"Stop moaning about it and move on."
When arguments fail to convince resort to ill manners eh.


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## doorframe (19 Oct 2014)

Walney Col":2x1qya3k said:


> When arguments fail to convince......



Alright. Stop moaning AND stop arguing........... and move on. :roll:


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## RogerS (20 Oct 2014)

doorframe":5l9yfkia said:


> Walney Col":5l9yfkia said:
> 
> 
> > When arguments fail to convince......
> ...



+1


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## Mark-numbers (20 Oct 2014)

Lmao at this thread!!


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## Doug B (20 Oct 2014)

Mark-numbers":14k8lnej said:


> Lmao at this thread!!




Got to admit it does make me smile Mark.
Folks are offered a completely free service for selling their own goods & the only proviso is they follow a few rules to do so & they still complain :roll: 

As my old Gaffa used to say, " if you gave some folks the moon on a stick they'd still want more"


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## Rhossydd (20 Oct 2014)

To add another point of view;

The rules as they they stand are generally clear enough.

The issue of whether an item is being sold commercially could do with some clarification and reassessment.
The consensus here seems to be that it would be useful and fair if people can sell surplus kit and materials to the benefit of the membership, IF the items offered aren't their primary business products.
Hence timber merchants should pay to advertise wood, turning blanks etc, through the premier post scheme, but a joiner could sell some surplus hardwood left over from a job. Similarly a secondhand tool vendor should pay to advertise, but a kitchen fitter could sell on a tool he was upgrading.
The issue of VAT in these circumstances is quite straightforward, all prices advertised must be the prices paid including VAT if chargeable. A courtesy would be to expect people to add to their listing if a VAT receipt will be issued for the sale price.


The reality is that this is already happening in the 'For sale' section to an extent. Smart moderators would legitimise this, rather than just overlook it which can cause problems when later disputes happen with other potential vendors.


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## wizard (20 Oct 2014)

I collect tools as a hobby and buy and sell a few as part of my hobby so i assume i am not according to the rules aloud to sell them to other forum members. It is no benefit to me to sell them on here at all as i can sell them on eBay, however it may be of help to others.


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## RogerS (20 Oct 2014)

Rhossydd":390x7noa said:


> To add another point of view;
> 
> The rules as they they stand are generally clear enough.
> 
> ...



I think that that is a pretty fair and accurate assessment and reflects the balance being achieved by the Mods in For Sale.


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## Mark-numbers (20 Oct 2014)

Doug - You know me well enough by now to not take life too seriously.

If there are rules then they are there for bending.

But Lord Nibbo is being a numpty

a) for going all pathetic "this is my last post" etc etc b) not taking it up in private with the mods!!


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## Doug B (20 Oct 2014)

Mark-numbers":al6dmwsh said:


> But Lord Nibbo is being a numpty
> 
> a) for going all pathetic "this is my last post" etc etc b) not taking it up in private with the mods!!



It looks like he's gone & joined the Shaven Axminster 2, I'm sure he will be happy there


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## Mr_P (20 Oct 2014)

Doug B":2f02n2ox said:


> Mark-numbers":2f02n2ox said:
> 
> 
> > But Lord Nibbo is being a numpty
> ...



I just thought he was busy with his cockpit.

Those imaginary planes don't land themselves.


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## Noel (20 Oct 2014)

Now, now, behave.
I'm sure LN will be warmly welcomed and I hope he'll be happy there. Always welcome here too.


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## riclepp (21 Oct 2014)

Oh ffs, who really cares, i don't and this is getting boring to say the least. There is enough stickies to point you in the right direction Despite that, I see numerous posts in the sales bit that don't follow the rules to the letter, but there is often a "MOD Edit" as well as them being obviously commercial, just by looking at who the seller is. So I suppose it will really depend on the fact of what it is, how much you are selling and if it gets spotted that make the difference.

I don't personally care if it is a commercial seller, if I want it and need it I will contact them via PM, so what is the issue. It is the commercial seller that has to advise HMRC and not me , so that is their issue.


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## Ghengis (21 Oct 2014)

bYE


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## Noel (21 Oct 2014)

Ghengis":2j19ogw6 said:


> bYE



You off? Bye. : )


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## stevebuk (22 Oct 2014)

Noel":5kjzrcuv said:


> Ghengis":5kjzrcuv said:
> 
> 
> > bYE
> ...



think he was referring to nibbo Noel, but BYE anyway... :lol:


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## doctor Bob (22 Oct 2014)

stevebuk":3o7kuioy said:


> ...........he was referring to nibbo Noel




has noel got a new nick name, I like it ..................Nibbo Noel, has a nice ring to it.


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## Wildman (24 Oct 2014)

doorframe":3vzh26ch said:


> Walney Col":3vzh26ch said:
> 
> 
> > Well put Gareth. I think that's an excellent summary of how most members would feel. Col.
> ...


I suppose one could argue what difference does it matter if commercial or not as long as the buyer is aware and his rights are not compromised. as a buyer it makes no difference to me its price, condition, and location in that order if a person in business can supply a machine or tool that I need cheaper than a hobbist so what, are we depriving the hobbist of income, i.e. the hobbiest has become commercial by proxy.

Having said all of that the site owner is within his rights to make whatever rules he sees fit, this is a free forum, we should be grateful for what we have, whilst we have it. Should it become a chore of argument and dissent then it could well close.
nuff said.


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## DrPhill (24 Oct 2014)

> I suppose one could argue what difference does it matter if commercial or not as long as the buyer is aware and his rights are not compromised. as a buyer it makes no difference to me its price, condition, and location in that order if a person in business can supply a machine or tool that I need cheaper than a hobbist so what, are we depriving the hobbist of income, i.e. the hobbiest has become commercial by proxy.
> 
> Having said all of that the site owner is within his rights to make whatever rules he sees fit, this is a free forum, we should be grateful for what we have, whilst we have it. Should it become a chore of argument and dissent then it could well close.
> nuff said.


+1


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## Mark-numbers (25 Oct 2014)

Wildman":2pswcr9j said:


> doorframe":2pswcr9j said:
> 
> 
> > Walney Col":2pswcr9j said:
> ...



It will never close as long as the readership is there and the adverts carry on being placed!


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## vally bar (25 Oct 2014)

+ vat is indicated for the benefit of vat registered members as it makes the purchase cheaper, for those not vat registered it is Irrelevant as you pay vat on every thing anyway.
Example say a tool @ £600 new = £500 + vat so if vat registered it's £500 as the vat is reclaim able.
If not it £600.
So some one not vat registered trying to sell 2nd hand at say £525 is selling at over list, this is why the + vat is indicated for the benefit of vat registered members we are not trying to make money it's the law of the land and you have no choice in the matter ounce the rediculsly low turnover level is reached. The vat charged is them paid to the exchequer not kept by the seller.


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