# Possible Gloat....New Scroll Saw



## Chems (11 Jul 2008)

A very good friend just gave me one of these: 







Completely un-used but needing some TLC as its been sitting under a bench for a while. Probs needs a new blade as well. Is this a good one? It has a cast iron table and weights a fair bit. Better than the Titan one I just returned to screwfix I hope!

Whole 3 days now to get cutting with it!


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## alanjm (11 Jul 2008)

Hi Chems
Snap: I recently acquired one of those, though I did pay £25 for it. I did find the blade change a tad fiddly so I eventually got a quick change system (which I had to aquire from the US as I couldn't find a UK supplier for DELTA parts). I haven't fitted it yet as it didn't seem to be immediately obvious and would need a bit more attention than I had at the time. As my Hegner is not a variable machine I did find this a useful machine when cutting thinner items that needed a slower speed.

Rgds
Alanjm


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## Gill (11 Jul 2008)

I would consider myself rather fortunate to be given a saw like that  . I notice it's still got the hold-down arm attached - if you find it gets in the way, don't be afraid to remove it.

Gill


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## jimp11 (11 Jul 2008)

it's a great saw mine is 10 years old works good cut large clocks with it as well little stuff it's a back up for my D788 now but the kids and other watchers like to use it 2 hold it down with a good heavy bench


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## Chems (12 Jul 2008)

Got it working and cut out my stag, Gill will know what Im referring to.

A few questions, does anyone have the manual for this link online perhaps?

Buying new blades for this I take it scroll saw blades are pretty generic?


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## Gill (12 Jul 2008)

I'm pleased your stag came out okay  .

If nobody here can find a manual for your saw, it might be worth asking over on one of the 'Murrican forums where a lot of people still use Deltas. This forum is probably the most active.

Your saw will accept all standard 5" blades. I wouldn't bother buying those with pinned heads because they're not designed for fine work, although I have seen fine work produced with them. Rather, go for those with flat heads which are held in position by clamps. There are plenty of blade retailers around, including Mike Moorlach (Flying Dutchman) in the US, Hegner (UK), Hobbies of Dereham (UK) and Shesto (UK). I daresay there are other good retailers too  .

If you should have the same difficulties with blade changing as Alan, it may be that you can replace your blade clamps with something more user-friendly. Although contacting Delta in the US is one approach to the issue, it's also likely that Frank Pozsgai would be able to help.

Gill


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## loftyhermes (12 Jul 2008)

Chems

I have a Delta 40 560 type2 manual as a .pdf file if it's of any use.

lofty


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## Anonymous (13 Jul 2008)

Gill":1xwm7na3 said:


> If you should have the same difficulties with blade changing as Alan, it may be that you can replace your blade clamps with something more user-friendly.
> Gill



This is a mis-guided observation on your part Gill as the only difficulty I had with blade changing was with the Hegner clone AWFS18 clamps which are the same as the Hegner clamps !
I have no such problems with the Delta or DeWalt clamps and the saw you are commenting on (Chems) has Delta Quickset II type clamps so not sure where you're coming from ?
Chems saw is a Delta 2 speed model with the Quickset II clamps fitted as standard and clamps which I have the greatest praise for and certainly much faster than the Hegner/Axminster saws.

Alanjm sounds like he has an earlier single speed model without the Quickset II clamps hence his need to upgrade to the superior Quickset II type. If what I've said is right Alan, you'll really notice the speed difference after an initial 'getting to know you' period.


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## Blister (13 Jul 2008)

jimp11":1ibze6tr said:


> it's a great saw mine is 10 years old works good cut large clocks with it as well little stuff it's a back up for my D788 now but the kids and other watchers like to use it 2 hold it down with a good heavy bench



Mate , just looked at your web site , some very nice work , I am impressed :wink:


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## jimp11 (13 Jul 2008)

Thank you


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## Chems (13 Jul 2008)

Thanks to all for the help, our newest forum member Silver Silver sent me the manual yesterday. I just need to find a home for it now!


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## Chems (24 Jul 2008)

Just thought Id update this, I took the whole thing apart for a well needed clean, scrub the table down best I could with out going crazy. Also figured out the blade change things, its ingenious, its sort of like a clamp that you pull forward and it puts tension on push it back and it releases the blade. 

Only problem is the stag was lovely but I had no need for it in the end. Think I may make a little coaster with the stag in it for a bit of fun.


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## chrispuzzle (24 Jul 2008)

Alan- AKA The Woodman":43nyg76h said:


> Gill":43nyg76h said:
> 
> 
> > If you should have the same difficulties with blade changing as Alan, it may be that you can replace your blade clamps with something more user-friendly.
> > Gill



This is a mis-guided observation on your part Gill as the only difficulty I had with blade changing was with the Hegner clone AWFS18 clamps which are the same as the Hegner clamps !/quote]

The AWSF18 clamps are like Hegner's standard clamps, true.

But Hegner also sells a set of "quick change" clamps which have a thumbwheel instead of an Allen key. They are much better and naturally work with the AWSF18 too. Of course you could replace the allen bolt with a thumbwheel yourself even more cheaply.

Of all the comments I've seen about clamps on the US forums the Delta clamps seem to be the most highly regarded for ease of use but also attract more posts about breaking them. Don't know if that's because the mechanism is intrinsically more breakable, or whether it would be a quality control issue.


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## Gill (24 Jul 2008)

Thank you Chris! It would appear that Alan and I were talking at cross purposes. I've always presumed purchasers of the AWFS followed the advice given by this forum when the saw was first marketed and purchased a Hegner 'Quick Clamp' to improve the AWFS.

Gill


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## Anonymous (24 Jul 2008)

chrispuzzle":1x7v3hix said:


> Of all the comments I've seen about clamps on the US forums the Delta clamps seem to be the most highly regarded for ease of use but also attract more posts about breaking them. Don't know if that's because the mechanism is intrinsically more breakable, or whether it would be a quality control issue.



Having used Delta clamps extensively for years I can say with confidence that most reasons for them breaking are mis-use.
A scan through various scroll saw forums show the bolt breaking is the main problem users have.
It's amazing how little clamping pressure a blade needs when a clamp is set up right and the tendency of new owners is to tighten too much. This puts undue extra tension on the small bolt and like any metal that's put under too much stress, it will break !

Used correctly the Delta clamps work very fast and positive.


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## Anonymous (25 Jul 2008)

Gill":3w18smy5 said:


> Thank you Chris! It would appear that Alan and I were talking at cross purposes. I've always presumed purchasers of the AWFS followed the advice given by this forum when the saw was first marketed and purchased a Hegner 'Quick Clamp' to improve the AWFS.
> 
> Gill



I take it you aimed this at me Gill so it's only fair I answer.

I wasted £200 of my money on a 'Grass is greener' Axminster AWFS18 machine only to find the grass isn't green, let alone greener !
I didn't want to throw good money after bad. Buying the Hegner quick clamp would've improved things but the Axminster was sadly lacking in other areas AKA known as Hegner negatives as they are mechanical twins so experience told me what I needed to know.
I suppose at this point I should say that Hegners are fantastic saws much the same as old vintage cars are great.......They are built to last, the engineering is good but they are sosoooooo slow !

I am prepared to justify my comments with a video showing how quick blade changing on a DeWalt is.
After all, much of what has been said revolves around this very important part of scrolling.

I now refer you to a recently posted video thread of mine:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25478


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## chrispuzzle (25 Jul 2008)

Alan- AKA The Woodman":o2n3a12c said:


> I wasted £200 of my money on a 'Grass is greener' Axminster AWFS18 machine only to find the grass isn't green, let alone greener !



Alan, I'm not sure anybody here has ever said that the Axe is "better" than saws like the Dewalt 788 or Delta P20. Just that it's a very good low-cost alternative to a Hegner.

Besides, all the faults you've listed in the past are obvious from the pictures and specs - you are very experienced, much more so than most of us. You know what the Hegner design is like - and the slow blade changing has been mentioned often in threads about the Axminster. It's not like you didn't know all this stuff when you forked out the money, surely?

Although I would never, ever claim that the blade changing is quick, it gets a lot quicker with practise. On the other hand, I have never broken a bolt, no matter how hard I tighten it - which was as tight as possible, at first, before I realised I didn't need so much pressure.


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## Anonymous (25 Jul 2008)

chrispuzzle":1clmg41j said:


> Alan- AKA The Woodman":1clmg41j said:
> 
> 
> > I wasted £200 of my money on a 'Grass is greener' Axminster AWFS18 machine only to find the grass isn't green, let alone greener !
> ...



Chris.....I did know of a few faults when I bought the Axminster but they were things I could live with if the saw overall was a good performer. Take the small narrow table for example, extending or even replacing it would be easy. I also knew that regardless of changing the top clamp for a Hegner quick clamp, the bottom clamp would remain a pain in the proverbial.
Changing the bottom clamp to a Diamond holder was always going to happen. These changes were in my mind before I even took delivery of the saw so everything else relied on how it performed.
Sadly, it didn't perform at all well and I was extremely disappointed.
I am talking overall performance and not just blade changing.
The saw was sweet on the low vibration side but it just didn't want to cut fast and speed is what I needed. It was like a snail compared to every other saw I've owned and the reason is one of it being too well engineered. The blade had not even a hint of orbital action which if you've ever used a jigsaw with orbital action, you'll know what I mean for how effective it is. The aggressive orbital/rocking cutting action of a 'C' arm saw proves this point nicely.
The downside of no back and forward movement of the blade is that sawdust has trouble escaping on material thicker than the stroke of the machine hence the slow cutting of the Axminster.
I am constantly cutting material 21-24mm thick so it's a real issue for me.
I can improve the cutting speed by adapting the stroke to above 25mm but around 30mm will cut even faster.
I did a similar stroke alteration on a Delta I had and it worked really well.
The trouble I have at the moment is that I don't feel inclined to put the time into doing all that need doing which is why the Ax is gathering dust in the corner. Who knows, maybe in future I might get the enthusiasm to adapt it so watch this space !

Regarding the broken bolts thingy on Delta clamps.....I should've made it clear that the bolt breaking happens over time and not with a single instance as you seem to think.


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## chrispuzzle (26 Jul 2008)

Alan - 

Thanks, I understand a lot better, now that you are talking about the slow speed cutting wood that's over an inch thick. You changed the stroke to the longer stroke too, I think? That would increase the speed of the blade against the wood (same number of revs, longer travel) but reduce the force of the cutting tooth for a given amount of power (has to move the arm further). I discovered this very quickly when building my Meccano saw - the blade would jam using a 1" stroke but was much better (exactly twice as good) with a 1/2" stroke. If you went back to the shorter stroke you ought to find the cut more aggressive.

On the parallel action, the blade does move away from the cut, of course, but it remains vertical which means that the more firmly you push, the more the wood will stay in contact with the blade anyway. The lighter the touch, the more benefit you get.

The drawback to a C-arm is, of course, the tendency to undercut, which for puzzlers and intarsia work means you must have a wide enough kerf to overcome the undercut or the pieces will not fit properly - in turn, that means you get a theoretically looser fit. Although with 4mm or 6mm ply puzzles it's not a big deal, I think with thicker intarsia work and some compound cuts it would make more of a difference - Gill? You do a lot of this sort of stuff?

I would be interesting to contrast the results with different blades - a very aggressive skip tooth blade might be what's needed like the FD Polar. I must have a go with the various blades in my collection and see if there is a noticeable difference. What do you usually use?


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2008)

chrispuzzle":rs8sh5vq said:


> Alan -
> 
> If you went back to the shorter stroke you ought to find the cut more aggressive.



Pay attention Chris or go to the back of the class. :lol: I have covered why this doesn't work better than a longer stroke so please go back and read again.



chrispuzzle":rs8sh5vq said:


> I would be interesting to contrast the results with different blades - a very aggressive skip tooth blade might be what's needed like the FD Polar. I must have a go with the various blades in my collection and see if there is a noticeable difference. What do you usually use?



After extensive testing of many makes and types of blades I mainly use FD-SR No9 and No12 blades depending on the thickness being cut. These are the fastest blades I have found for what I cut.

May I ask how many scroll saws you've owned Chris ?


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## Gill (26 Jul 2008)

chrispuzzle":24ymzqr2 said:


> The drawback to a C-arm is, of course, the tendency to undercut, which for puzzlers and intarsia work means you must have a wide enough kerf to overcome the undercut or the pieces will not fit properly - in turn, that means you get a theoretically looser fit. Although with 4mm or 6mm ply puzzles it's not a big deal, I think with thicker intarsia work and some compound cuts it would make more of a difference - Gill? You do a lot of this sort of stuff?



I've never used a C-arm so I can't speak from personal experience. Logically, what you say should be true and it is backed up by Zachary Taylor in his _Scroll Saw Bench Guide_:


Whether or not it is desirable to have the saw blade reciprocating vertically rather than with a slight backswing is dependent on the type of work to be undertaken. If, for example, mostly straight lines or gentle curves are to be cut, a C-frame scroll saw will perform as well as, and, in fact, more aggressively than a parallel-arm saw. The later is more efficient for the navigation of tight curves or smaller radii and, in general, leaves a better finish in the process. It is possible to work on small radii with a C-frame scroll saw provided the workpiece is relatively thin; otherwise, if thicker material is being cut, there is more strain on the blade, and also the finish suffers.

Gill


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2008)

Out of interest, Rick Hutcheson, the well respected american scroller has this to say about 'C' arm saws on his site http://www.scrollsaws.com/

*Parallel verses C-Arm Saws:
"There are a lot of myths about the C-Arm saw that I do not believe are correct. Yes, it does undercut the corners slightly, but if you didn't have a magnifying glass, and know what you were looking for, it would not be noticed. That is if the saw is set up right and the operator has learned how to use it properly. That the C-Arm is a more aggressive saw is true. But the speed can be set down to cut just as slow as a parallel arm saw. When you need the speed it is there. In fact it will cut about 30% faster than a Parallel arm saw does. And if you cut 2X lumber the C-Arm will really show it's stuff for being aggressive, because it cuts 2X about as fast as a parallel cuts 3/4. It has the ability to cut small pieces, that will fit 3 on a dime, with the same precision as a parallel arm. It will stack cut the Scroller (Nelson) baskets smaller than a dime, with 1/8" plywood. If there was that much undercut it sure wouldn't do that. And it will cut the "Scroller" type of patterns with ease using the recommended 2/0 blade. Now it may take a little more practice to be able to do this on the C-Arm but it's worth the effort. All of my clocks and 4Fun sculptures have been cut on the c-arm saw."*


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## Chems (26 Jul 2008)

Only joking, carry on.


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2008)

Ha ha chems mate.......Sorry about that as we were all getting carried away. 

*Thread is now back on track.*

So my friend, how are you getting on with your Delta and did you make the coaster ?

Please don't hesitate to ask if there is anything you need to know about the Delta as I know those saws inside out.


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## Chems (26 Jul 2008)

Im working hard on my TV table but as soon as its finished I want to have a good go with the scroll saw since I spent so much time cleaning it up.


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## Chems (21 Jul 2009)

Just dredging this up.

My original blade lasted for a long time but broke a few months back, I'd quite like to have use of it again as its a hand little tool. Gill said 5 inch standard blades, I'd quite like to pick them up in Focus or B&Q but I bet they don't sell such things do they? 130mm is what I'm looking for?


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## chrispuzzle (21 Jul 2009)

Chems":vda5zuuv said:


> Just dredging this up.
> 
> My original blade lasted for a long time but broke a few months back, I'd quite like to have use of it again as its a hand little tool. Gill said 5 inch standard blades, I'd quite like to pick them up in Focus or B&Q but I bet they don't sell such things do they? 130mm is what I'm looking for?



130mm yes.

Don't think B&Q or Focus do anything worth having.

Hobbies of Dereham now stock Olson blades too, one of the top brands. I believe they do mixed packs as well - they advertise them on eBay anyway.


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## scroller frank (22 Jul 2009)

Hi Chems,
As Chris says ,Hobbies or Mikes Workshop , usa ,
the Delta clamp system is the best (imo) - i've had no bother in 13 years !!! word of warning however, :lol: keep an eye on the little 4 mm bolt that you tighten the clamp up with, no 37 on the parts list , as it gets bent 
if you have it too tight ,and when bent , thats when it gives bother , so replace it and don't over tighten it, also i roughen up the jaws now and again with a little emery cloth .
hope you enjoy it like i do mine !!!!!!!!!
all the best ----Frank-----------


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