# Record T5?



## Chris152 (15 Jul 2017)

I'm squaring wood with a bandsaw and plane, so made a simple shooting board for end grain and find it ok for shorter planing with the grain. I intend to make a longer one for longer lengths with the grain. The thing is, holding the plane is hurting my hand after a while. I've used candle wax on the side and base of the plane and keeping the blade sharp but after a while it still hurts. 

The only new shooting planes I can see online are £200+, and used Record T5 online for maybe a bit under £100 and I don't know the condition till I get it sent. Does anyone currently sell a cheaper shooting plane (I've searched and can't find one), or can you adapt an ordinary plane without permanently altering the base? 

Thanks


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## Corneel (15 Jul 2017)

I don't know what you are making, but it helps to be conservative about what to shoot and what not. Handtool work asks for smart use of the tools. Do as little as possible. Not every stick needs to be squared on six sides. Hell, most only need two or three straight sides! Your post sounds like you are still in machine operation mode when you are using handtools.


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## bugbear (15 Jul 2017)

There are indeed "ways" to make shooting better/easier.

But in this instance, I firmly agree with Corneel - lots of shooting work is most likely not the answer to what you're doing.

Unless you persuade us otherwise.

BugBear


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## Chris152 (15 Jul 2017)

I have rough sawn planks that I want to size, plane and square, in order to glue them together. For boxes and table tops. 

What other method should I be using? I don't really understand how wanting to plane and square wood is tricky to understand, but that's probably me.


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## custard (15 Jul 2017)

Here's how it tends to work today in many professional workshops,

1. large cross section timber (larger than say 30mm x 75mm) but too _short_ to be safely cut on a table or mitre saw, square the end using a hand plane working to a knife line with the workpiece held in a vice, so no shooting board needed.
2. small cross section timber but too short to be safely cut on a table or mitre saw, square the end with a shooting board 
3. As scenario 1 or 2 but with multiple workpieces, square the ends with a disc sander. Doesn't have to be an expensive disc sander, often will have a simple wooden fence fastened on with a couple of G-Cramps. You can work to a knife line or just sneak up on the desired length by kissing the workpiece to the disc then testing the fit

Modern abrasives have been a game changer, consequently most workshops now use disc sanders for a high percentage of end grain squaring (this applies to high end/high skill workshops as well as to low cost operations). You won't read about this in the classic woodworking textbooks because abrasive papers were either carp or prohibitively expensive when they were written. But given that you can pick up a decent used 10" disc sander for £50, so cheaper than a T5, the reality of real life woodworking is that shooting boards tend to be reserved for more specialised tasks. 

The other thing I'd emphasise is that many professional or experienced woodworkers would only think about using a shooting board on pretty small cross section timber, the figures I quoted in scenario 1 is an upper limit, in practise many experienced makers only get out the shooting board for stuff smaller than say 20mm x 50mm.

Long grain is different, and here shooting boards get far more use in professional workshops than hobbyists might imagine, from drawer bottoms to veneers, long grain shooting boards are frequently employed.


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## Chris152 (15 Jul 2017)

Thanks Custard, that's really helpful. I think the key difference between me and those scenarios is the word 'experienced' - I've tried planing end and along the grain freehand and I'm still working on that but tbh, if I want two boards to glue flush along their length, my planing's not up to it yet. I don't have a table or mitre saw, but could think about a disc sander. Is dust extraction on them good? - dust worries me, especially as I'm working in a garage that's integral to the house with kids in it. 

As for long grain, should I soldier on with my 5 1/2 plane and man up a bit, or is a shooting plane normal for that?


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## Corneel (15 Jul 2017)

Search for hotdog handle, if you want to improve shooting board comfort. 

For a tabletpp you don't need absolute square ends. Glue up the top a bit oversize, saw the ends and clean up with a plane. 

For boxes, yes this is prime shooting board teritory! But there are only four corners on a box, not enough to wallow in pain!

For long grain it's way better to learn jointing with a tryplane or jointer plane. There are plenty of threads here explaining how to.


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## CStanford (15 Jul 2017)

Need to be able to shoot end grain in a vice! Hard to manipulate a wide carcase side on a shooting board.


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## Chris152 (15 Jul 2017)

Corneel":1q3jeu0i said:


> Search for hotdog handle, if you want to improve shooting board comfort.


That could be the answer - I didn't know you can just get the handle and fit it to the side of a plane. The Lie-Nielson one I found in a search seems to be for specific planes of theirs, but I found this, which looks like it might do the trick:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/newsletters ... ticle1.htm
Thanks!



CStanford":1q3jeu0i said:


> Need to be able to shoot end grain in a vice! Hard to manipulate a wide carcase side on a shooting board.


I'm working on it...


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## Ttrees (15 Jul 2017)

I don't know what kind of bench you have, but if it's flat that will simplify things.
Have you thought of using a birds mouth ?
I would not be fixated on the T5 (although I have never used one) 
You can make your own handle ...type in Alan Peters plane handle if you really want.
I do wonder if a no.5 would be a wee bit easier, but not much difference really.

Tom


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## Chris152 (15 Jul 2017)

Ttrees":1puty2sw said:


> I don't know what kind of bench you have, but if it's flat that will simplify things.
> Have you thought of using a birds mouth ?


Thanks Tom. I don't know what a bird's mouth is! Well, except in the sense that we all know. I did a search and it's a joint?


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## Racers (15 Jul 2017)

You need to make one of these.



Shooting board miter attachment by Racers, on Flickr

Its a piece of plywood cut to fit the shape of the side of your plane a piece on the top with the hook, a couple of shaped pieces on the in side up against the frog and the web in front of the mouth to transfer the force.
Its much better than a glove.
I have some better pictures on Photobucket but I am not paying $399.99 a year to link them.

Pete


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## Ttrees (15 Jul 2017)

Hi Chris
Its just a V shape cut into some wood.
I recently made one from scrap plywood in about 1 minute for the small stuff I have been processing.
Tico Vogt demonstrates his planing stop one on youtube 
Even if you still decide to use the shooting board, this will do the rough work first.
Its very helpful to have a dead flat surface for checking first, so you would need only one pass to save your hands.
I would find this instance a perfect excuse to get a no.5 and put a small camber on it, but I like having planes  

That's a rather nice jig Pete 

Tom


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## deema (15 Jul 2017)

If your jointing two boards together you don't need a shooting board. The easiest and simplest solution irrespective of your planing ability is to lay the boards down face up and then fold them up together like a book. The edge on the bench is the edge to be planned. Clamp the two boards as they are and now and plane the edge. If you don't plane square, it doesn't matter, when the boards are put together any angular error is cancelled out as each board is a mirror image of the other in terms of the angle planed on the edge. Perfect joints every time!


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## custard (15 Jul 2017)

Corneel":pnttw5mp said:


> For long grain it's way better to learn jointing with a tryplane or jointer plane.



True enough...as long as the boards are the reasonably thick stuff you would use for a table top or something similar. 

But there are plenty of occasions in woodworking where you're jointing up thin stuff, say 8mm thick drawer bottoms, 6mm cabinet backs, or even 1.5mm saw cut veneers. A newcomer to woodworking will really struggle balancing a plane on an edge thinner than 18mm, and even an experienced maker starts to find it tricky once you drop below about 12mm. In those circumstances a long grain shooting board is the best way to go.


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## custard (15 Jul 2017)

deema":2nqrbzt4 said:


> If your jointing two boards together you don't need a shooting board. The easiest and simplest solution irrespective of your planing ability is to lay the boards down face up and then fold them up together like a book. The edge on the bench is the edge to be planned. Clamp the two boards as they are and now and plane the edge. If you don't plane square, it doesn't matter, when the boards are put together any angular error is cancelled out as each board is a mirror image of the other in terms of the angle planed on the edge. Perfect joints every time!



True enough, it's a useful trick to have in your armoury. But it's still not the all purpose, silver bullet solution. 

It can be awkward to cramp the boards together, cramping the centre on long boards needs some ingenuity and even the most minute cupping or bowing can spring the top edges apart. The system only works if any inaccuracy is completely consistent from end to end, but for a beginner that's difficult to achieve as they'll generally wander from side to side, so the camber on their iron will give them a high spot on the left in some places, and on the right in other places. And then there's the problem that the two ganged up edges may not plane fair in the same direction.

I agree it's a useful technique, but there are still times when it won't get you to where you need to be.


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## Corneel (15 Jul 2017)

No indeed, nothing is silly person proof in handtool woodworking. Skills take time to learn.


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## Corneel (16 Jul 2017)

Btw. I know where you are comming from. On my first real big project, the kitchen cabinets, I did all the panel glue ups with a long grain shooting board too. And yes that was painfull! I think I burned that shooting board....


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## deema (16 Jul 2017)

Custard is correct to a point If you use a cambered plane blade. A shooting plane should have a square blade with very little and preferably no camber. Movement of the plane laterally as the plane is used has little to no effect on the finished joint.


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## lurker (16 Jul 2017)

Racers":3opy46t3 said:


> You need to make one of these.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought you posted instructions on making these Pete?
I made one (took less than an hour) based on your photos and it works very well


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## Racers (16 Jul 2017)

lurker":3tcn2p98 said:


> Racers":3tcn2p98 said:
> 
> 
> > I have some better pictures on Photobucket but I am not paying $399.99 a year to link them.
> ...



Yes but Photobucket want $399.99 so I can show you the pictures!

Pete


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## Chris152 (17 Jul 2017)

Thanks all. I think I'll try making a wooden/ hot dog handle like that for the plane and a shooting board for long grain. I'll keep working on free-hand jointing too, it clearly feels much more ergonomic than the shooting board, but my results are pretty variable! Just out of interest, are these any help?
http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-jointer-fence-100583
Bit like stabilisers on a bike til I can get going in a straight line?


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## Ttrees (17 Jul 2017)

I would think of the veritas tool as one for planing very long boards.
It sounds to me like you are using a straight iron/have not experienced the camber before
Tom


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## Chris152 (17 Jul 2017)

Ok, thanks Tom. 
The next thing I'm planning (a coffee table, my third 'thing') will need 1m long boards glued up. American white oak looks really nice and apparently it's good to work with - £90 planed and squared, £60 rough sawn incl wood for legs and apron. The T5/ shooting board question is about how I can 'efficiently' and effectively get and work rough sawn, but without buying more machinery. And it's not so much about the coffee table in particular as trying to establish a working method. At some point I'll probably crack and get a thicknesser/ planer or just buy the pre-machined wood!


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## Racers (17 Jul 2017)

You will still need to plane the edges of your planed timber to get a good fit.

Pete


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## Ttrees (17 Jul 2017)

Its no guarantee that pre machined timber will still be true..for many reasons
when it was machined, how it was stored, the difference in acclimating to your workshop, etc
You have a 51/2 that's really capable/preferable of quickly doing the job.
I suggest a reference surface will be a big boon if you don't have one allready.
Have you used a plane with a camber yet?
You could use that 20 quid to buy a plane or just a double iron and try it out.
I would lean towards another plane as it could be got for the same price, but it would take a bit more 
waiting.
I do all my work with the 5 1/2 though ...I use a 4 for rough stuff stripping paint and such.
A long grain shooting board would not be suitable for thick stock like your table. 

Do you plan on making more stuff like boxes with thin stock soon? 
Might be another excuse to go on the bay for either a 5 or an iron ?
Tom


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## Chris152 (17 Jul 2017)

I've not used a plane with a camber - and I'm not sure how I'd use it. I'll look into it today - I have an old No 4 with a spare blade which I could work on. 
I'd read/ seen the need to plane wood that's machined, but reckon a really fine cut with the plane on wood that's nearly there is more manageable than sawn wood. If only because I'll be less exhausted and more able to focus...


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## Ttrees (17 Jul 2017)

You will not go back 
Incidentally, try edge planing that thin stock too, as you will find it easier ill bet,
You won't see a reflected cambered image on the wood surface which you imagine you will.
You might see an inkling on a wide surface, but not on thin stuff.
You can camber it more if you like later to surface that rough stuff, but you might just decide to
put a small camber the 5 1/2 for the job after trying. (assumption)
Have fun !


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## Eric The Viking (17 Jul 2017)

Chris152":3bjt8871 said:


> I've not used a plane with a camber - and I'm not sure how I'd use it. I'll look into it today - I have an old No 4 with a spare blade which I could work on.
> I'd read/ seen the need to plane wood that's machined, but reckon a really fine cut with the plane on wood that's nearly there is more manageable than sawn wood. If only because I'll be less exhausted and more able to focus...



I hate using my shooting board, but then it's probably not very well made (ought to have another go at it really). But one thing that makes a huge difference is the sharpness of the plane iron.

I only mention this because I struggled for many years (literally) untaught in the need for and ways of getting truly sharp edge tools. I'm still not brilliant at it, but a heck of a lot better since I happened on this forum!

I am NOT going to start another sharpening thread as such, but ask a rhetorical question: can you (ridiculously easily) dry-shave your forearm with the plane iron you're using? If not, it's unlikely to sharp enough for the task, and the result will be tiredness, grumpiness, and _stuff that's not square, either_. It's pretty demoralizing, and I can read that between the lines, I think.

As I said, no answer required, but if the suspected answer is the one that springs to mind, consider experimenting with Scary Sharp to get going, with a view to picking a favourite method ASAP (once you've been staggered by just how sharp you can actually get things). 

I mention SS, because after a lot of failed attempts to get a good result with Norton stones, etc, it worked brilliantly for me first go. I suspect that one of the reasons it worked so well for me was that it let me 'go down the grits' in a very controlled way, thus guaranteeing I did it properly. FWIW Axminster have good quality wet+dry paper (Hermes), and that's advisable. I bought some cheap stuff from Toolstation at one point - big mistake and wasted money.

Yes my technique was rubbish, but I've got a Tormekalike wet grinder, Norton and old, excellent stones I've inherited, and umpteen jigs. Really, nothing actually worked consistently, and the consistency thing is important. SS made a lot of that irrelevant, and really, really encouraged me (sharpness = easier and more enjoyable woodworking). And although it probably has a high ongoing cost, it was relatively cheap to get going.

For goodness's sake, please don't turn this into a flame war! I'm just trying to help, _because it worked for me when other approaches didn't_. If I'd been taught properly, etc., etc., is all true, but hey.

E.


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## Chris152 (18 Jul 2017)

That could be part of the issue, Eric. I read a lot online and went for wet and dry papers from Axminster on a veritas glass lapping plate - I have 800, 1200 and 24000 and polish with a strop I made, which seems to work fine. BUT - last time I was sharpening I noticed the dark trace left by the steel was uneven, which on reflection was caused by residues of sticky-back glue from the previous sheets on the plate. This would have meant it wasn't sharpening properly across the blade and I shouldn't have been so lazy. I guess in future some white spirit to clean the plate before applying the next sheet? But I do reckon I have a workable handle on sharpening now, in that the first couple of times I used the paper I could indeed shave my arm with the blade. I decided to stop checking on every sharpening in case I ran out of body hair. 

So, yes, more attention to sharpening, but I still think I want to have a go at a long-grain shooting board, too. They cost so little and the end grain one only took 10 minutes to make, and is accurate - unlike my freehand edge planing much of the time.

Also, I recently asked for advice on cutting the wavy edge off a bit of oak worktop and considered a circular saw for the job - I wonder if one could be used for squaring the ends of board along the lines Custard suggested with a mitre saw, above? Maybe followed by very light sanding? A circular saw would have the advantage of not taking bench space except in use, and maybe could help with more jobs than a mitre saw.

edit - 2400!


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jul 2017)

I used to be able to cut a strip of hair from my shoulder to my wrist ... with an Estwing axe.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jul 2017)

7 1/4" circular saws are horrible things fit only for a building site. Most have rip blades or poor general purpose ones so would need a replacement to obtain a cut anything like clean or accurate.


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## knockknock (18 Jul 2017)

Something to consider is, free hand edge planning to get the edge close, then shooting for final perfection. This would lessen the amount of shooting work. Eventually you would develop your edge planning skills, to where you would only be shooting when needed.


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## Chris152 (19 Jul 2017)

knockknock":3rc69fwl said:


> Something to consider is, free hand edge planning to get the edge close, then shooting for final perfection. This would lessen the amount of shooting work. Eventually you would develop your edge planning skills, to where you would only be shooting when needed.


I think that sounds like a good plan - I get to improve and can still be confident that the end result will work.

phil.p, I'd thought maybe to get one of these
http://www.axminster.co.uk/festool-hk55 ... l-ax959911
with a finer blade, if I can stretch the budget. Or the ts55 if I win the lottery. They look accurate and would need just light finishing? It's a lot of money tho and I keep feeling I should use a hand or bandsaw and some planing...

Really helpful advice all - I think I just need to make a decision! :?


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## Ttrees (19 Jul 2017)

How much space you got ?
You could get a nice tablesaw for that money (hammer) 
You would still need to prepare one face and edge though.
You could bandsaw either with a decent one.
Cleaning it up would be no bother as your gonna be planing it regardless.

I have another jig like a birds mouth for larger stuff like that.
It' was 2/3rd's of the middle of a door, cut where the letterbox is hole is, an open C shape
I clamp it down, and slide stock in from the open letterbox end and wedge it 
Solid as 
Tom


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## Chris152 (19 Jul 2017)

Space and noise are the issues Tom - I'm working in a single garage that also has a freezer in it. Tried to figure where I could shift the freezer to but no joy. And table saws make too much noise for me - the nice people in Cardiff Axminster ran a couple a while back, one brush and one induction motor, and they were both pretty loud without even cutting. So the noise would go through the house - whereas I can easily build a basic bench in the garden for a track saw, and the sound will dissipate easier I think. Not that I plan to cut much - just occasional use, but it'd still be an issue.

I like the sound of longer stock coming through the letter box. Do you have a pic of that?


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## Eric The Viking (19 Jul 2017)

I have to start work really... but some quick things that have helped me:

*Tip #1:* On any edge tool, that cuts like a chisel or a plane, you're aiming for a very smooth edge (lengthwise along it) where two cleanly defined smooth surfaces intersect, giving a sharp angle. There's no magic to this: if there are any scratch marks from sharpening, these make serrations, which greatly reduce the "sharpness" of the tool and contribute to tearout. They act like microscopic bulldozers, rather than cutting. So with SS, the idea is that each finer grit removes the marks left by the one before. 

*Tip #2:* Sharpen with a strong desk lamp either on the bench or nearby. Find an old, manky SLR camera lens, either 50mm or anything shorter down to about 28mm (where it becomes too awkward usually). Keep the back lens cap handy and fit a cheap filter on the front to protect the optics (It'll be in a workshop!). Using the lens _back to front_ works excellently as a powerful, very high quality, magnifying glass. The wider the lens (shorter focal length) the more it magnifies, but the area you can focus on gets smaller. I find 50mm or thereabouts is the best compromise, and since that used to be the standard for cheap SLRs they're cheap as chips in junk shops, etc. 

For each grit, look at the edge you're sharpening or flattening frequently with the lens, to see if you've made an even row of scratches along it. When you have, _and you have obliterated the scratches from the previous grit_, stop, as that's as good as it gets with that grade of grit.

*Tip #3:* To get that perfect intersection of two planes at the sharp edge, you can't have the back of the iron with grinding or honing marks in it, either: it needs to be smooth like the bevel. Only the bit right next to the edge needs to be like that, but since it needs to be flat, most people flatten a decent distance back from the edge, so it's a done-once, done-forever operation. You don't have to - going as far back as the cap iron is probably quite enough. Any rust pitting really has to go - you'll see why when you magnify the edge! Search on microbevels for more discussion on this, but basically smooth and dead flat are the key things, not shininess as such. I find if I try to use a powered polishing mop as a shortcut (or the "honing wheel" on my Tormek-style system), it dubs over (blunts) the edge. Do this bit first, carefully, so you only need to do it once.

*Tip #4:* I use a large lump of glass (about 18" x 12"), and fix down strips with the grit written on one corner of each strip in permanent felt tip. I fix down as many as I can get on at once, so do all the coarse grinds together, then a finer set. Grindings from one grit will spoil the effect of the finer ones, so they go in order with a bit of a gap, and I sometimes hose the glass plate down between times, outside, with the finer grit uppermost (wherever you do this it will result in a rust stain on the ground!). When I have to replace the strips, I clean the plate thoroughly with meths and get it dry, and spray glue on the backs of the strips rather than onto the plate directly.

*Tip #5:* Unless you actually damage an edge in use, once you've first got it sharp, you only need the finer grits really. Expect to hone (do the last ones) frequently, depending on use. So keep the sharpening set-up handy, so you use it, rather than be tempted into pushing just that bit further to get something finished.

I haven't mentioned sharpening angles - others on here can recommend what's best for a shooting plane, and it will vary a bit with the wood you're working. Hope that helps a bit.

E.

Always put the lens caps back on immediately after use: you'll hate it if a piece of crud spoils the view!


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Jul 2017)

A £2 jeweller's loup will do.


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## Chris152 (19 Jul 2017)

Thank you Eric - really helpful, I'll follow your advice, and I have just the lens. And a photographer's loupe, phil.p. I'll try and compare! 

Hope that didn't make you late for work Eric.


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## Eric The Viking (19 Jul 2017)

phil.p":3iw2tq7a said:


> A £2 jeweller's loupe will do.



You're dead right Phil, as usual, and I used to carry one round at work. 

But when I found I needed to stack two to get any value I realised I needed glasses! The advantage of a camera lens (or anything like that) is that you don't have to get close to the lens, so it's fine if you wear glasses. I've got a magnifying headband that's excellent for many jobs, and I can wear specs underneath it, but even with a little add-on lend, it's still not powerful enough for sharpening tasks.


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## Ttrees (21 Jul 2017)

Chris152":1pxt84ee said:


> Space and noise are the issues Tom - I'm working in a single garage that also has a freezer in it. Tried to figure where I could shift the freezer to but no joy. And table saws make too much noise for me - the nice people in Cardiff Axminster ran a couple a while back, one brush and one induction motor, and they were both pretty loud without even cutting. So the noise would go through the house - whereas I can easily build a basic bench in the garden for a track saw, and the sound will dissipate easier I think. Not that I plan to cut much - just occasional use, but it'd still be an issue.
> 
> I like the sound of longer stock coming through the letter box. Do you have a pic of that?



Here you go Chris 
Nothing special about these two basic fixtures 
This gets me by until I make the bench 
Sounds like a big bandsaw is the tool that would be most useful for you IMO
If you need to dimention stock as quietly as possible ...
Or go get a rip saw or two 
Good Luck
Tom


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## Chris152 (22 Jul 2017)

Aha, it's not the image I had in mind, which was the wood coming through the letter box like a letter. More funny, less practical. 

You're right about the cost of those track saws compared to a table saw and I saw the small Axminster hobby one (TS-200-2) for a good price yesterday. So, at the risk of driving you all mad with my questions, and after reading around the net a fair bit:

Can you produce an edge fit for jointing with a good blade (Freud 30T TCG Thin Kerf Glue Line Rip Saw Blade?) on a well set up table saw?


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Jul 2017)

Yes ... if you're going to paint the finished product.


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## Chris152 (22 Jul 2017)

phil.p":1me2etg8 said:


> Yes ... if you're going to paint the finished product.


Ah, right - do you end up with an ugly glue line?


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## Chris152 (23 Jul 2017)

Chris152":2dbi3yz7 said:


> phil.p":2dbi3yz7 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes ... if you're going to paint the finished product.
> ...


Anyone? Can a well set up table saw with the right blade produce a decent edge for jointing? I've no doubt a plane in the hands of a skilled cabinet maker would be better, but could a table saw bridge the gap til I can produce such an edge by hand?


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jul 2017)

One way of finding out - give it a go.


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## CStanford (23 Jul 2017)

Chris152":3c5ub4gz said:


> Chris152":3c5ub4gz said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":3c5ub4gz said:
> ...



It's possible with a very solid saw with a glue line rip blade installed. You need a good bit of motor to push a blade like this -- 3 hp minimum, 5 hp much better.


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## Chris152 (24 Jul 2017)

Hmmm, I don't have a table saw and it'd have to have been a cheap one, so no chance of 3+ hp. 

So, reading back through the posts above I decided to make this this morning - a shooting board in the vice, feels way more ergonomic than when horizontal and with gravity to assist the cut.




The grips are there to hold the wood in place as I lift it into the vice and, after shaving a bit of hair off my arm, I found it works a treat. I need to make a longer one (1m) for the boards I want to glue together, so we'll see if that works as well. 

Thanks all for your thoughts and patience!


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## Ttrees (24 Jul 2017)

How are you gonna surface those wide boards Chris ?
That's normally done before the edges.
If you don't have a workbench or surface to plane on, that's what you should focus on.
You could even stick a fire door on a flat surface and clamp a baton to the end for a planing stop 
that would be fairly handy.
You soon would not want a fixture for a long grain shooting board, as stock that wide will easily sit on the bench.
Tom


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## Chris152 (24 Jul 2017)

I have another bench with a vice which I've been planing flat sides with, but it's a temporary setup, Tom. And they won't be as wide as the one in the picture, that's just a piece I had in the garage that I thought I could try the shooting board on. I'm reckoning the surface of the table can be a bit more forgiving in terms of accuracy than the joints along the boards for glueing...


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## Ttrees (24 Jul 2017)

Why fight a good thing ?
A well set plane will produce no tearout. 
To get these results, it requires finer shavings depending on species.
You can then be sure you will get accurate joints afterwards as you can check your work more accurately.
A flat bench is essential IMO 
I should have took a picture of the amount of fire doors that was down in the dump the other day.
One of those would sort you out for planing boards up.

Tom


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## Chris152 (7 Aug 2017)

My first attempt to join boards to make a small table top. (Three pieces of pine jointed.) 




I built a 1m shooting board to joint the boards along the grain and it seems to have worked fine. The glue-up wasn't tidy looking but it seems to have worked ok, some planing and it looks good to my eye. 

Which just leaves the question of how I trim the ends. I've seen a small table saw for a good price (Axminster ts200), but it still scares me and a cheap track saw saves some money. With a decent cut, it shouldn't take too much finishing by hand with sandpaper? Track saw or table saw. hmmm...


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Aug 2017)

A plane.


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## Chris152 (8 Aug 2017)

phil.p":2nq8ir2l said:


> A plane.


Can't help but feel 45 cm of end grain is a bit outside my comfort zone for the moment!


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## bridger (9 Aug 2017)

Chris152":34aegtyj said:


> Hmmm, I don't have a table saw and it'd have to have been a cheap one, so no chance of 3+ hp.
> 
> So, reading back through the posts above I decided to make this this morning - a shooting board in the vice, feels way more ergonomic than when horizontal and with gravity to assist the cut.
> 
> ...




Adding a fence to your jointer plane would be easier


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## Chris152 (10 Aug 2017)

bridger":3ixqxky4 said:


> Adding a fence to your jointer plane would be easier



I don't have a jointer but could try attaching a fence to the wooden plane as someone suggested in another thread. Tho I'm just happy to have something that works and feels stable for the moment.

It turns out that my hand sanding is far from accurate - I got a nice finish with paper but it wasn't at all flat and perpendicular to the faces of the table top, so I attached grades of paper to square section blocks of wood and lifted the table top, and ran the block along the bench top which keeps it square. The saw blade marks are still visible so I'm hoping a finer tooth blade on the track saw will be easier to clear up after.


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## Ttrees (10 Aug 2017)

That's a big waste of time to sand joint pieces, not to mention the possible grit impregnated into the timber that would stop a joint going together as good as it could be,
not to mention just the better finish for glue in general.
More important in instrument soundboards and the like, but it makes sense. 
Did the camber not work out for you? 
You did mention having two irons ...

Tom


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## Chris152 (10 Aug 2017)

The boards are already jointed Tom, I planed the edges to joint then glued, trimmed the ends and now I'm trying to get a decent finish on them - which seems to work.


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## Ttrees (10 Aug 2017)

Well I sit corrected 
Although my point still stands, as that grit could contaminate some other surface
I just have a thing about sanding :twisted: 

Why did you not just plane it?
Tom


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## Chris152 (10 Aug 2017)

I want to keep practising planing end grain, but tbh my skills just aren't up to 45cm of it. And I'm surprised what a great finish sandpaper can produce - I used 120 followed by 250, and it had a real polish to it. And very little dust - it didn't take so much work (though there are still traces of the blade - I'm going to recut it tomorrow to see if a finer tooth blade needs still less).


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## Ttrees (11 Aug 2017)

I find it hard to believe that your skills are not up to it, as I've seen that lovely box you made  
You want to try the finer blade you say....Is it intended for crosscutting or general purpose?
Did you try striking a line with a marking knife and planing to the line?
Make sure you put a chamfer down to the line on the end of the piece first, as you would end up blowing out the edge of the timber at the 
end of the pass. See Rob Cosman.
As long as you can get the plane iron sharp enough to shave with, your good to go.
Sharp enough means not tugging on your arm hair, it means whooao sharp, that takes no effort to cut whatsoever.
Look at 0:32 into this video .......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jix5SDsfS5I 
Have fun 
Tom


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## Chris152 (12 Aug 2017)

That's kind of you, Tom. She loved it, which is what really matters. I collected the 60 tooth blade today and it definitely makes a better job than the 24 that came with it - and took far less sanding to get a good surface on the cut face. 

That said, I want to try planing the end grain as you say. I can put it in a shooting board flat on the bench but it is rather wide now and would find it easier if it's upright, planing horizontally - and the bench vice can only grip one end. I could clamp it to the side of the bench, maybe?


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## Chris152 (12 Aug 2017)

To answer my own question:





I got the blade as sharp as I could and the plane passed fine over the end grain. But, there is some tear out on the softer layers of the pine - is the blade still not sharp enough or is this what's to be expected?




It'd take hardly any sanding to sort it. 

Thanks for persisting, Tom.

edit - maybe it's clearer in this one. My lens won't get any closer!


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## Ttrees (12 Aug 2017)

Can't say how good you can get it, as I have not planed much end grain.
I only use hardwoods, But if I remember correctly that end grain shavings in softwood is one way to test a chisel for truly sharp.
I thought that video shown a thing which is not often seen, hairs actually flicking up into the air.
If you can get it this sharp, you know its good enough.
You should be able to produce shavings

I wonder if the cap iron has the same effect in end grain as long grain ?
There is folks that use a low angle plane for this, but in reality there is not much difference in the angle of attack when you add it all up. 

Sorry I can't be more help
Tom


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## ED65 (13 Aug 2017)

Chris152":3hs5egpq said:


> But, there is some tear out on the softer layers of the pine - is the blade still not sharp enough or is this what's to be expected?


Generally, if your edges are very very sharp indeed you will get little, or no, tearing like this with a suitably light cut. But some wood just doesn't want to cooperate. If small zones of the earlywood are particularly soft almost everyone would struggle to get a truly perfect surface when planing it. 

Anyway, your results look great to me. You can always fill the tiniest traces, fills like this can be nearly invisible even with close inspection by someone who knows what they're looking for. _You _might not even be able to spot where the filler is a few weeks later when you've forgotten where it is! 

You must also remember that nobody will scrutinise the end grain the way you're doing, except a fellow woodworker.


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## custard (13 Aug 2017)

ED65":1ic3n0r8 said:


> Chris152":1ic3n0r8 said:
> 
> 
> > You can always fill the tiniest traces, fills like this can be nearly invisible even with close inspection by someone who knows what they're looking for. _You _might not even be able to spot where the filler is a few weeks later when you've forgotten where it is!



End grain changes colour dramatically as it drinks up the finish, that will make the filler stand out like a fish in a tree.

End grain planing was discussed here,

which-vintage-blockplane-to-get-t106952.html

If you're not happy with the end grain surface you get from a bench plane then either sharpen your iron and try again, or set to with a sanding block. Don't bother with filler. 

Incidentally, some makers aim for paler end grain surfaces, and the way they're achieving that is by sanding to much much higher grits than you'd usually use. The traditional explanation for why end grain finishes darker is that the cut ends of the fibres absorbs the finish. However, a number of makers now claim this is only a relatively small contributor, the bigger part comes from micro tear out on end grain, and if you sand through the grits right up into wet and dry levels you'll produce end grain that finishes only slightly darker than long grain. Hands up, I've never finished a serious piece of furniture like this, but I've seen the work these guys are producing and the reality of their work is persuasive.


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## custard (13 Aug 2017)

Thinking about it I did actually go the high grit route on end grain a few years ago.

This is one of my pieces, and I've made a couple of other items like it. The end grain surface of the leg forms part of the desk's top surface, I sanded through the grits right up to something in the thousands. As you can see the end grain finish is fairly close to the long grain, even with an oil based finish (Osmo).






The end grain on the matching chairs gets the same insane high grit treatment.


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## Chip shop (13 Aug 2017)

That chair is lovely.


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## Chris152 (18 Aug 2017)

Chip shop":2nby8qr4 said:


> That chair is lovely.


I'm pretty determined to learn to make simple furniture of a decent quality, and reckon if I work hard enough I can do it. But I look at a chair like that and my mind boggles, I can't even begin to think how it was made let alone imagine making anything like it myself.


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