# Just use the blade guard!



## Doug71 (6 Mar 2021)

Just a reminder to leave that blade guard on.

This guy spends most of the video discussing what went wrong and only briefly mentions at the end that maybe he could have used a blade guard 

And use some proper push sticks!


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## JohnPW (6 Mar 2021)

He blames the cut on losing concentration, mind being not focused, distraction blah blah. Not on the fact that there's an open and exposed high speed spinning blade! He'll probably carry on without a blade guard.

99.9% of videos on Youtube that show a tablesaw being used have unguarded blades, no riving knives, leaning over the unguarded blade with push blocks.


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## Spectric (6 Mar 2021)

The way he explains it I doubt a blade guide would have helped, his fingers would have gone under it. This is a simple case of stupidity, there are no excuses and it was completely avoidable. If I was him I would avoid all machinery until at least I had attended some decent safety training to at least give him the right mindset. When that blade is spining you do not take your eyes off it, and always use pushsticks or the like to ensure your hands are well clear at all times and always know what your hands are doing. He literally put his hand into the blade whilst looking in the other direction, that is pure stupidity and there is no engineered solution that could make him safe. He is probably one of lifes walking disasters, the sort that accidents just love to find.


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## Cabinetman (6 Mar 2021)

He was using a yellow push block and nothing else so he didn’t have a push stick in each hand, it becomes automatic when you’re using your saw that you have one of those in each hand and when you want to clear a bit of wood or offcut as he was doing It’s automatic to use the stick to do it with, my personal view is that if you’re using one of those push blocks you probably can’t do it easily with the guard over the blade in a lot of situations which is probably why so many Americans take the guard and the riving knife away – barking. 
It makes me shiver to think of using one of those blocks as your hand is just far too close to the blade even when you’re using one correctly. Ian


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## TheTiddles (6 Mar 2021)

Ten and a half minutes, maybe I’m too millennial... could have been a picture of how he was doing it and a big flashing sign saying “I deserved this one”

Aidan


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## Cabinetman (6 Mar 2021)

So this is an American guy asking why most people remove the guards, he makes all sorts of reasons and excuses but basically it comes down to you can’t use a push block if you’ve got the guard in place. He is supposedly showing us how to use one safely it scares the hell out of me.
He also says that the main purpose of the guard is to stop you dropping pieces of wood onto the blade which would then be slung back at you, he just doesn’t get it at all.


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## JohnPW (6 Mar 2021)

In the video in the first post, he says it's a motion he's done thousands of times, I presume he means putting his hand right next to the blade to move a piece of wood, not that he puts his hand there without looking.


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## shed9 (7 Mar 2021)

"Could have had a blade guard in place" followed by "all those things are options and considerations"???

He went out of his way to remove a safety guard and even after catching two fingers directly in the blade still thinks those same safety guards are "options and considerations". I suspect this is the first of many from this guy's 'just how dumb am I?' series of videos.


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## JohnPW (7 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> So this is an American guy asking why most people remove the guards, he makes all sorts of reasons and excuses but basically it comes down to you can’t use a push block if you’ve got the guard in place. He is supposedly showing us how to use one safely it scares the hell out of me.
> He also says that the main purpose of the guard is to stop you dropping pieces of wood onto the blade which would then be slung back at you, he just doesn’t get it at all.



He recommends other people should use a blade guard then says he doesn't use one himself, and thinks it's safe to lean over and put his hands very near the blade and he's offering safety advice??!!


He's downplaying the purpose of a guard to justify why he doesn't use one.


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## TRITON (7 Mar 2021)

Having no guard isnt that unusual really I'm a culprit i hold my hands up to. Last professional workshop didnt have one fitted either.
Sure theres a danger involved, but theres also ..well not justifying it with talk of deep ripping cuts or cutting tenons or dados where the guard MUST be removed as the majority of saws being sold dont have a separately mounted guard(like the PK)
Personally I use long push sticks, and aged 15 i did have an industrial accident so i am aware more than most here how nasty that can be.
Being aware of the dangers of machines is always the right thing, the guard isnt the be all end all of prevention, you can still have an accident with a guard in place. ESPECIALLY when at 45d with the entire blade up.
Ill also say i dont like it when the blade is fully up, but i feel safe because i am always aware of the dangers each and every time i switch on. The push sticks are long and I never ever put my hands anywhere close to the blade. A long stick will be used to clear cut timber out the back or from the side. 

Sorry I dont accept having a guard will prevent accidents 100% of the time, it is the operator and their attitude as well as their concentration that is the paramount aspect.


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## JimB (7 Mar 2021)

A couple of things to remember in the home workshop. Firstly distraction - dogs, cats, children and spouses as well as friendly neighbours bringing a can or two round.
Secondly we're working with wood which can have hidden variations in grain and density to say nothing of knots.


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## Doug B (7 Mar 2021)

& yet he’s still made a near 13 minute video out of his ignorance that will no doubt boost his YouTube channel.
Pretty much sums up why I dislike YouTube.


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## Cabinetman (7 Mar 2021)

And can’t they talk! The Americans appear to be particularly bad at it, waffle waffle waffle – state the blindingly bleeding obvious and then finally you might get round to something you actually MIGHT want to see, but not very often in my opinion. Ian


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## Doug B (7 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> And can’t they talk! The Americans appear to be particularly bad at it, waffle waffle waffle – state the blindingly bleeding obvious and then finally you might get round to something you actually MIGHT want to see, but not very often in my opinion. Ian


You’re right Ian, there must be benefits for the time a video runs as you invariably get 10 minutes of garbage waffle before a bit of action that is so self explanatory as to make the pre-talk worthless.
I will admit there are very few videos I’ve watched in there entirety, the best thing about YouTube is the horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen that allows you to forward through the dung.


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## Amateur (7 Mar 2021)

There are always a few ways to cut material safely without removing the guard.
The problem is thinking the table saw can do everything for that's what they imply.


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## shed9 (7 Mar 2021)

In response to TRITON's post up there. This whole thread is predominantly about the inherent dangers of people who seriously risk the well-being of others by disregarding crucial safety measures and propagating that on an open public platform. Why would you then reiterate that very same risk on that very same thread. I hear these counter arguments all the time;



TRITON said:


> Having no guard isnt that unusual really


The reality of a blade guard being there or not doesn't actually dilute its intended verifiable purpose.


TRITON said:


> Last professional workshop didnt have one fitted either.


Assuming we are still talking about a saw with a purposely removed safety guard, this is illegal and only a matter of time before more than one set of blue lights turns up at those premises.


TRITON said:


> aged 15 i did have an industrial accident so i am aware more than most here how nasty that can be.


This statement would have credibility if arguing for safety but to use it to argue against it makes no sense. Having an accident doesn't qualify anyone to argue against working safe.


TRITON said:


> the guard isnt the be all end all of prevention, you can still have an accident with a guard in place.


Obviously accidents happen with safety guards in place, that's just the law of averages but this doesn't mean they don't prevent accidents.


TRITON said:


> but i feel safe because i am always aware of the dangers each and every time i switch on.


That thought process doesn't replace safety guards, it can perversely however breed contempt over a period of time, for all of us.


TRITON said:


> Sorry I dont accept having a guard will prevent accidents 100% of the time


This is the classic devolution of the counter argument, reference something absurd never stated but subtly suggest the opposing stance made it. In all my years in interacting with other woodworkers, both in-person and online, I have not once seen or heard anyone making the case for working safe that 'having a guard will prevent accidents 100% of the time'.

I don't mean to single you out TRITON, I haven't a Scoobies who you are. This is not an attack on you, I am addressing your text as in my opinion it is crucial that any new woodworkers reading it need to know this is not common sense or a valid argument to not use safety measures on equipment that can change your entire life for the worse in seconds if not used properly. Safety guards are part of the machine design, your average woodworker does not know better than the machine designer or is in a position to question the validity of the Health and Safety directorate of their respective countries. We don't advocate removing the blade guard on a circular saw or suggest removing the guarding on most other high speed cutting machines so why do table saw's get a pass? in my limited experience the reason most people remove the guard is bore out of ignorance, arrogance or a laziness to replace it after removing it - yes you sometimes need to remove it but equally sometimes there are other safety measures to cover that circumstance, sometimes these are other guards.

I'm not the safety police, we are all adults. All I ask is if anyone comes across the text up there and thinks it's a valid case to remove safety guards please read a little further before going further. People can and will operate as they see fit, I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do and again TRITON, this is not aimed at you, more the argument you make.

Just like gambling, don't gamble with what you can't afford to lose.


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2021)

I do think those gripper blocks are a really bad idea - they actually shorten your reach and you have to stretch your arm right over the blade, guarded or not, and no protection at all for the left hand
2 push stick reduces chance of accident to near zero (guarded or not), and give you better control.


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## shed9 (7 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> I do think those gripper blocks are a really bad idea - they actually shorten your reach and you have to stretch your arm right over the blade, guarded or not, and no protection at all for the left hand
> 2 push stick reduces chance of accident to near zero and give you better control


I agree, they place your hand way to close for me. I've been using the Jessem clear cut guides for a few years now and whilst not useable for all cuts they have fit the purpose for me.


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> I agree, they place your hand way to close for me. I've been using the Jessem clear cut guides for a few years now and whilst not useable for all cuts they have fit the purpose for me.


Had to look them up. Pricey! I'm sure they'd work OK but I'll be sticking with home made featherboards and push sticks!


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## shed9 (7 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> Had to look them up. Pricey! I'm sure they'd work OK but I'll be sticking with home made featherboards and push sticks!


Yeah, I winced when I bought them despite getting them at a vastly reduced priced at the time. I still use (home made) push sticks with the Jessem guides, not found anything that works as well in moving the wood through the blade whilst keeping my digits away from the whole process.


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## RobinBHM (7 Mar 2021)

Circular saws can be used for a range of operations and so there are loads of injury potentials.

What people forget is the work itself acts to complete the protection from the blade during the cut and longer wider pieces offer more protection. The biggest danger is pretty much always the end of the cut - where the blade becomes exposed and there is a loose offcut. 

Because the work is part of the protection, the guard can never nor should be considered to be the only protection barrier.


On Friday I ripped down a 100m of glazing bead (it's made wider and profiled on 2 opposite edges to later be ripped. I used 2 push sticks - one long and springy to act as permanent side pressure and a thin push stick to push it next to the rip fence. My hands were always 2 feet from the blade.

For ripping, I always set the rip fence so it finishes just past the blade gullets....that way it doesn't bind on the back of the blade


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## silentsam (7 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> Sorry I dont accept having a guard will prevent accidents 100% of the time, it is the operator and their attitude as well as their concentration that is the paramount aspect.



I agree with this but you are forgetting that most people are completely stupid and probably need more safety features, not less. For every person that is super cautious like you there are probably 3 who are a little careless and 1 who is a total moron.


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## Chris70 (7 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> In response to TRITON's post up there. This whole thread is predominantly about the inherent dangers of people who seriously risk the well-being of others by disregarding crucial safety measures and propagating that on an open public platform. Why would you then reiterate that very same risk on that very same thread. I hear these counter arguments all the time;
> 
> 
> The reality of a blade guard being there or not doesn't actually dilute its intended verifiable purpose.
> ...


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## Chris70 (7 Mar 2021)

Chris70 said:


> Just like gambling, don't gamble with what you can't afford to lose.


Says it all! Don’t gamble!


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## TRITON (7 Mar 2021)

@shed9

Do you deep rip ?

Do you cut tenons on the saw bench ?

Do you cut dados on the saw bench ?.

All of which require the guard to be removed.

If you answer yes to any of those then my point is wholly valid and to disagree is , well kind of nit picking and a tad shall we say hypocritical.
All those operations are legitimate legal operations. The guard doesnt need be there all the time. Theres no written rule that says those operations must never be carried out and indeed hse is aware of that. CARE MUST BE TAKEN, That is the golden rule.

Now you might not personally cut tenons, dados or deep rip, you may have a separate mounted guard, or a big bandsaw. But they ARE legitimate operations. And its always the case CARE MUST BE TAKEN.

Look at moulding with the ring fence. The blade is totally exposed.

I knew that some would be aghast at such a post. But thats only because they think a guard must always be in place, and sometimes thats just not possible.


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## MarkDennehy (7 Mar 2021)

_shrugs while looking at the finger he shoved into a bandsaw a fortnight ago_

I mean, add another reason to why I don't ever want a table saw, or a jointer or a router table in my workshed. If you're a professional and using those things are your bread and butter, that's one thing, but I write software for a living - if it takes me twice as long to do something in the shed, well, who cares? My mortgage is still getting paid. If I have an accident with a tablesaw and lose two fingers... I mean, not being able to type is rather an impediment in the day job. Not fatal, but definitely a pain in the fundament. I can break down sheet goods with a tracksaw, I can do most of the cuts I'd want from a tablesaw on a bandsaw (not that they're totally safe), and I can joint with my handplanes and I can do mouldings with hollows and rounds and so on and so on - you all know the score there. 

For a hobbyist, maybe jointing by hand is a better point on the risk/reward curve than jointing with a machine that will take your fingers and leave nothing that can be reattached surgically. Thicknessing tends to find a different point on that curve due to laziness  

Also, please tell me everyone's got a first aid kit with compression pads within a few seconds? I mean, that seems rather... basic as a requirement not to mention cheap - drop St.Johns less than fifty quid and you'll wind up with a first aid kit that you could probably use for everything from a chisel nick to a gunshot wound, overkill in first aid comes dirt cheap.


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## silentsam (7 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> I knew that some would be aghast at such a post. But thats only because they think a guard must always be in place, and sometimes thats just not possible.



I think the process of having to remove the guard for such cuts is actually a good one. When you do so you are hyper-aware of the blade and more careful than ever. If the guard is always removed some people will become more comfortable and complacent in my opinion.


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## MarkDennehy (7 Mar 2021)

silentsam said:


> I agree with this but you are forgetting that most people are completely stupid and probably need more safety features, not less. For every person that is super cautious like you there are probably 3 who are a little careless and 1 who is a total moron.


_raises injured hand_
I mean, I like to think I'm not a complete moron, but I'd like the extra safety guards for when my brain decides to take a few seconds off when it really should have been more focussed; I'm not sure I like the idea of only keeping my fingers during the time I'm completely focussed on a task


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## TRITON (7 Mar 2021)

I'll also take it most aren't aware that the most dangerous part of a saw blade is the back, not the front. ESPECIALLY when theres a guard in place.
The teeth face and run upward you see, so the blade catches and pulls in up under and into the guard.

Thats something you really need to be aware of when you use a 800mm Robinson rip saw for the first time


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## DBT85 (7 Mar 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> a router table


On this alone, I'd say depending on that you are routing a table is safer than doing it handheld. You can use all manner of things to help prevent your digits getting near the bit, and the bit isn't going anywhere other than round and round. 

If you're doing it with a palm router instead, it's possible to have a moment, the bit climbs and then attacks your hand.

As with every tool, it's a matter of using it as safely as possible. I say this as a moron who's used a table saw with no guard on for things other than just making housings in the past.

I reckon more have done dumb things that would care to admit it.


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## shed9 (7 Mar 2021)

silentsam said:


> I agree with this but you are forgetting that most people are completely stupid and probably need more safety features, not less. For every person that is super cautious like you there are probably 3 who are a little careless and 1 who is a total moron.


Even super cautious people can be careless and do moronic things, I know I'm not immune to it and can give most careless morons a run for their money on a bad day. This is not a case of more safety features for those that need it, it's the design of the saw regardless of how careful people think they are.


TRITON said:


> @shed9
> 
> Do you deep rip ?
> 
> ...


No nit picking hypocrisy, just asking people to question a blanket email arguing against the efficacy of fitted safety equipment. 

I appreciate and accept that some table saw functions require the removal of the blade guard, but for those functions where it needn't be removed then why would you? More importantly why would you advocate that practise to people who come here for advice? That was the rationale to my retort. No amount of thought process, intent or bravado will avoid an accident, that's what makes them accidents.


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## Doug71 (7 Mar 2021)

The HSE requires the blade to be guarded at all times including when cutting rebates and grooves etc.



https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf


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## Doug B (7 Mar 2021)

DBT85 said:


> On this alone, I'd say depending on that you are routing a table is safer than doing it handheld. You can use all manner of things to help prevent your digits getting near the bit, and the bit isn't going anywhere other than round and round.
> 
> If you're doing it with a palm router instead, it's possible to have a moment, the bit climbs and then attacks your hand.
> 
> ...


I’m the opposite with this I much prefer using a router hand held as both of my hands are firmly attached to the router handles & as long as they stay that way are not in the path of the router bit.
In a table on the other hand I am pushing the work piece towards the bit & if something slips etc I’m on a path towards the cutter even when using push sticks.


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2021)

.Th


Doug71 said:


> The HSE requires the blade to be guarded at all times including when cutting rebates and grooves etc.
> 
> 
> https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf


This is "guidance" and "should be used" is the operative expression, not "must be used".
In other words you can do what you like but are advised to use their suggestions, or if not to use alternative safety measures along the same lines or better. It mentions alternative guarding if the crown guard is taken off.
Some of their advice is not that good - an inadequate design of push stick and no suggestion of using two - which is probably the single most effective safety measure for TS, planer or spindle. And two drawings show hands on the workpiece where a second push stick should be used.


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## Cabinetman (7 Mar 2021)

Just mention I’ve started a new thread on push sticks, mine were getting a bit chewed up at the sacrificial end so it was about time I made some new ones. Ian


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## MARK.B. (7 Mar 2021)

Like a five year old that has done something wrong he waffles on and on trying desperatly to shift the blame onto something/anything else other than his own part in the accident. Had a gaurd been in place then the world could have been spared 12 min's and 45 second's of self pity . Thought that the bit where he would guilt trip his as yet unborn child with the message that he lost the use of his fingers because he was making a closet for him/her was just . That incident was always going to happen sooner or later and he was damn lucky to only have the injuries he did get, it could have been so much worse.


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Just mention I’ve started a new thread on push sticks, mine were getting a bit chewed up at the sacrificial end so it was about time I made some new ones. Ian


I use two of these, and copies made of ply or mdf. Should be a British Standard design perhaps. They are cleverer than they look!


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## shed9 (7 Mar 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> Thought that the bit where he would guilt trip his as yet unborn child with the message that he lost the use of his fingers because he was making a closet for him/her was just .


I picked up on that little nugget as well. To already have that thought process in mind says loads about his potential as a parent.


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2021)

Here's another mad yank. He's going on about the dangers of kick back (real, but usually not serious with small components and small machines) but he's using gripper blocks - which are the _cause_ of the kickback and ALSO very nearly result in a nasty cut - which he blames on the kick back, not the use of grippers. He worked out why he needed a riving knife in place, but hasn't worked out why he should be using push sticks


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## TheTiddles (7 Mar 2021)

We all know the answer to the dado, tennon etc. argument about removing the guard... you fit a different one straight away. Anything to the contrary is basically just a straw-man argument, this comes up about once a month or so?

Does anyone remember the dude that cut the end off his little kid’s thumb off cutting rebates on an unguarded saw? The USA forum where it was posted was full of people saying well done to the little chap for being so brave at the hospital after such an unfortunate “accident”, the British response was slightly different!

Aidan


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## Cabinetman (7 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> Here's another mad yank. He's going on about the dangers of kick back (real, but usually not serious with small components and small machines) but he's using gripper blocks - which are the _cause_ of the kickback and ALSO very nearly result in a nasty cut - which he blames on the kick back, not the use of grippers. He worked out why he needed a riving knife in place, but hasn't worked out why he should be using push sticks



Absolutely right Jacob, how close his hand came to that blade ! – like he said he needs some new shorts now! Yes those push blocks are bloody dangerous, if he had been using push sticks his hand wouldn’t have been anywhere near and it wouldn’t have been able to move slightly to the left to be picked up by the blade at the back because he was pushing it to the right with his left hand holding the other push stick, also of course as he did say, use a riving knife.


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## Cabinetman (7 Mar 2021)

I haven’t seen that one Aidan, probably just as well. Sickening, poor kid.


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## TRITON (7 Mar 2021)

Doug71 said:


> The HSE requires the blade to be guarded at all times including when cutting rebates and grooves etc.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf


Thats for saws with separate guards, not ones where the guard is part of the riving knife.


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## Doug71 (7 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> .Th
> This is "guidance" and "should be used" is the operative expression, not "must be used".
> In other words you can do what you like but are advised to use their suggestions, or if not to use alternative safety measures along the same lines or better. It mentions alternative guarding if the crown guard is taken off.
> Some of their advice is not that good - an inadequate design of push stick and no suggestion of using two - which is probably the single most effective safety measure for TS, planer or spindle. And two drawings show hands on the workpiece where a second push stick should be used.



Here you go Jacob, a HSE poster for your workshop which mentions using 2 push sticks  



https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2021)

Doug71 said:


> Here you go Jacob, a HSE poster for your workshop which mentions using 2 push sticks
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf


That's better! Maybe they are catching up. They are still using that useless looking design though.


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## Spectric (7 Mar 2021)

A lot of emphasis is placed on the guard and as I said nothing will protect some people, guard or no guard. I have a set pattern when I use my table saw and always stick to it. First thing is to ensure a clear, tidy work area with nothing around I am likely to trip over. Then I check that what I intend to do can be done, can the wood have free entry into the blade and also exit without fouling on anything. I always use long pushsticks and never allow my hands to get anywhere near that blade. After the cut, turn machine off and again keep well clear until that blade has stoped, there is nothing here apart from common sense and understanding that with man versus spining blade there is only one winner and it's not you. I find it really strange that some people do not seem to have this ability for self preservation, perhaps they are playing to many computer games and think they are invincable.


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## akirk (7 Mar 2021)

More likely is that all people are different  some people are structured and organised - the upside is that they may be safer... others are more fluid and creative and off the cuff- downside might be a higher risk of injury, upside might be higher creativity with wood!

yes, conceptually it is simple and easy - hands at a distance from a spinning blade = lower risk, but then conceptually many other things in life are simple (driving, managing finances, being nice to people etc ) but it is amazing how many people mess up with those things as well... the rich tapestry of life!


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## Inspector (7 Mar 2021)

You know there is an upside to those that lob off a few fingers. The ones that do it when younger provide a clear visual clue to potential mates that this one isn't good breading stock and will sire throwbacks. Unfortunately the ones that do so later in life have already added to the twit pool and they go on to reach new levels of stupidity.  

Pete


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## TheTiddles (7 Mar 2021)

I saw a carpenters workshop in Rwanda, huge old cast iron machines, no extraction (but plenty of ventilation as there were no walls), open belt drives and petrol engines driving, not a guard in sight.

Not a single person there had all their fingers, including the children, some were missing several.


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## quintain (7 Mar 2021)

I spent a very enjoyable 30 years in a v busy fire service even when dealing with "things that people never considered would go wrong *for them*"...."we have always done it this way and *this has never happened before*..." (smoking in bed and falling asleep-lpg cylinder gas fire left unattended in house-overloading electrical circuits-reading maps while driving- and many many more) if you don't need all the fingers you presently have or indeed if you don't need to live any longer or even perhaps you are simply so kind-hearted that you wish to give employment to medics and a lot of others...just remove the blade guard and realise it isn't *if; it is simply when*; the unexpected occurs. My apologies to anyone who thinks I am pontificating or even just a smart ass, safety MUST always come first. And yes, some youtube videos are frightening when you realise they are instructing people wishing to learn.


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## Spectric (7 Mar 2021)

Inspector said:


> You know there is an upside to those that lob off a few fingers.



There are also others, you cannot loose them twice and now they are missing you have less fingers to worry about.


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## Tenacity (8 Mar 2021)

Trained as a joiner and machinist about 40 years ago and now coming onto this and other forums is scary. I used to sell and demonstrate Triton 2000 systems, their table saw, router attachment and all the other gear, safety was always there, never liked their idea of tenoning with no blade guard, so didn't demonstrate it but all their stuff had simple but effective push sticks built in to use. That was up to the user. Most missing finger and thumbs I have come across in the trade, "tradesman" who didn't guard up. Usually a case of bad practice or a one off and the accident happened. Once started a new job as a bench hand machinist, first morning there was asked to rip and size timbers on a table saw. Where's the ring knife and guard? says I. Probably under that bench amongst the off cuts. 30 mins later searching nothing "never mind" says he "we need it doing now". Several minutes later "Where the f**k are you going" Home with my tools including fingers and thumbs, he was gob smacked . On the smaller site/ workshop why don't makers agree a standardised size slots fo accessories?


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## Cabinetman (8 Mar 2021)

I wouldn’t worry about coming on here Tenacity, we value your 40 years experience. Ian


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## DennisCA (8 Mar 2021)

I don't have a guard installed like that either, I have a riving knife and I use two swan neck push sticks (aka wandel style), has served me well. I wasn't able to see from looking through that video if he had a riving knife or not. 

But that and a propensity to put ones fingers near the blade tend to be the main reasons for injuries like that.


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## jcassidy (8 Mar 2021)

Concentration is finite. I doubt most hobbyists have enough use of a table saw to get through the hours of safe usage required to build up safe working habit and muscle memory. Safety is then dependent on concentration, and when concentration lapses, as it must, 'chop chop chop'...


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## Spectric (8 Mar 2021)

DennisCA said:


> But that and a propensity to put ones fingers near the blade tend to be the main reasons for injuries like that


Thats bang on, people don't loose fingers because the saw blade decided to attack them, treat that table saw like a wild animal that is not in it's cage.



jcassidy said:


> I doubt most hobbyists have enough use of a table saw to get through the hours of safe usage required to build up safe working habit and muscle memory



There is a downside to having loads of time using a machine, thats complacency. You never want to be over confident and robotic when using any machinery because that is really dangerous and you always expect everything to be as it always has. Always approach a machine with an edge of uneasiness, your body will automatically be more alert and focused, just stop and think how much your life will change if you have a pile of fingers in amongst the saw dust and what things you will no longer be able to do, things like wiping your rear end to picking your nose and lots in between.


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## Jar944 (8 Mar 2021)

I would say that here in the US you might find a riving knife if you walk into the average home shop, but its unlikely you will find a blade gard (installed)

If you think the lack of a blade guard is scary you should see the site carpenters free hand a long scribe cut on a table saw (no fence) or using them to cope a peice of skirting.

Speakign of lack of guarding, This spindle moulder video made me cringe


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## JohnPW (8 Mar 2021)

Isn't the problem is placing your hands so close to the blade? Even with a guard, you should keep your hands well away from the blade by using 2 push sticks.


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## Cabinetman (8 Mar 2021)

Jar944 said:


> I would say that here in the US you might find a riving knife if you walk into the average home shop, but its unlikely you will find a blade gard (installed)
> 
> If you think the lack of a blade guard is scary you should see the site carpenters free hand a long scribe cut on a table saw (no fence) or using them to cope a peice of skirting.
> 
> Speakign of lack of guarding, This spindle moulder video made me cringe



Yes, home-made push block again, he could’ve done that perfectly well with two push sticks "and as long as I keep my fingers away from the orange bit I’m good to go" 
Doesn’t anybody use push sticks in America? I suspect they have all been swayed by the advertising for push blocks – not much profit to be made from two bits of wood that anybody can make!


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## TRITON (8 Mar 2021)

> Isn't the problem is placing your hands so close to the blade? Even with a guard, you should keep your hands well away from the blade by using 2 push sticks.



Apparently not for some it would appear. _Apparently_ having a guard on means you can never have an accident 



> Speakign of lack of guarding, This spindle moulder video made me cringe


 yeah, though the moulder is a different beast entirely. its more prone to big kickbacks. Experienced as I am, still doing curved work on it scares the bejesus out of me. I'm like a skittery kid getting it on for the first time. 
Even in the YT vids of factories in Indonesia where guards dont appear to ever be fitted, you nearly always see them using a powerfeed for big moulding techniques.


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## Jar944 (8 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Doesn’t anybody use push sticks in America?



Not really, (Well maybe some do). 

These (often just a scrap of plywood) are more common than the long sticks


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## TRITON (8 Mar 2021)

I hate those wee push things as above. Remember 450mm as a minimum. thats putting your entire fist into the danger zone.


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## Roland (8 Mar 2021)

Jar944 said:


> ... This spindle moulder video made me cringe


the very idea of spindle moulders makes me cringe.


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## Roland (8 Mar 2021)

Risk is a hard thing for some people to understand. I was taught to wear boots when cutting trees. In 60 years I’ve never had a felling axe incident, and only one incident when the chain saw kicked sideways. Thanks to the boots I still have all my toes.


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## Cabinetman (8 Mar 2021)

Jar944 said:


> Not really, (Well maybe some do).
> 
> These (often just a scrap of plywood) are more common than the long sticks
> View attachment 105462


Hi Jar, well it won’t come as any surprise for you to know what we all think of push blocks on this side of the pond, but you have so many accidents over there, – I found a link to an American site saying 10 amputations per day in the US. Would you perhaps try push sticks? There is a thread on here I started a couple of pages back entitled something like New push sticks I made. Once you get used to them they are very easy to use to control the wood being cut, one pushes it against the fence and the other pushes the wood through, And you don’t need to take your guard off to use them. Cheers Ian


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## Jar944 (8 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Hi Jar, well it won’t come as any surprise for you to know what we all think of push blocks on this side of the pond, but you have so many accidents over there, – I found a link to an American site saying 10 amputations per day in the US. Would you perhaps try push sticks? There is a thread on here I started a couple of pages back entitled something like New push sticks I made. Once you get used to them they are very easy to use to control the wood being cut, one pushes it against the fence and the other pushes the wood through, And you don’t need to take your guard off to use them. Cheers Ian



I usually try to do thin rips on a bandsaw, but I do have a gripper push block for the tablesaw..lol

Most maybe all of the TS sleds people use here can't be used with a blade guard, and therefore are never used. 

Safety is a interesting thing (here) we repealed helmet laws in some states (under the idea personal freedom) 

MAN ratings are not a thing, and square heads are still available (sort of.) 

Not trying to suggest any of that is a good thing, but it is what it is.


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## TheTiddles (8 Mar 2021)

People should be allowed to risk their own lives, I’ve not a problem with that.

Perhaps they should be advised that what they are doing is risky, seems fair.

People shouldn’t be allowed to needlessly risk the lives of others. So a tiny bit of gravel could hit the head of a motorcyclist and cause them to plough into an oncoming car, pedestrians etc... seems a fair enough law to enforce.

However on a bicycle it’s much less dangerous, so making them wear helmets would be unreasonable.

This is the morality and values of Western Europe, others haven’t caught up yet.


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## powertools (8 Mar 2021)

Can't understand why through this entire thread that no body has mentioned that before anybody considers push sticks the main things to consider in table saw usage are as follows.

Make sure that the fence is parallel to the blade.

Use a short fence or a long fence with a short sub fence fitted to it.

Make sure that the blade is sharp and of a type suitable for the cut to be made.

After the above then comes the push stick or 2 if you like in my opinion the birds mouth type are not as safe as some like to think if you take into account that the danger comes from the rear of the blade lifting the wood of the table and that type of push stick does little to stop it and if nor placed correctly on the end of the wood can push the end of the cut into the rear of the blade causing the very issue that we should be trying to avoid.


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## Nick Laguna UK (8 Mar 2021)

Interesting thread - thanks to all contributors it's been a good read

After attending woodworking shows for at least the last 25 years I've always been amazed at the amount of people who carried their lack of fingers as a badge of honour and insisted on telling me how they lost them whilst showing me their stumps..

Funny old world.


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## Cabinetman (8 Mar 2021)

powertools said:


> Can't understand why through this entire thread that no body has mentioned that before anybody considers push sticks the main things to consider in table saw usage are as follows.
> 
> Make sure that the fence is parallel to the blade.
> 
> ...


So what type of push stick are you advocating? And I’m afraid I don’t understand the last sentence pushing the end of the cut into the rear of the blade?


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## JohnPW (8 Mar 2021)

powertools said:


> Can't understand why through this entire thread that no body has mentioned that before anybody considers push sticks the main things to consider in table saw usage are as follows.
> 
> Make sure that the fence is parallel to the blade.
> 
> ...



The short fence is in :


https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf



"To prevent kickback, the front of the fence must beno further than the base of the gullet at table level"



https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf



"A rip fence or a cross-cut fence should be used to give adequate workpiece support during cutting (see Figure 2(a)). To prevent kickback, the front of the fence must be set no further than the base of the saw blade gullet at table level"

Yes it hasn't been mentioned so far, I was going to and will add that I don't think I've ever seen a Youtube video of it.

I think the (misguided) reason for pushblocks/grippers is because without a riving knife, you need to push down quite hard on the workpiece as you move it forwards during the cut. If you just use pushsticks and push the workpiece forwards with no riving knife and with a long fence, there's more risk of kickback.


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## powertools (8 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> So what type of push stick are you advocating? And I’m afraid I don’t understand the last sentence pushing the end of the cut into the rear of the blade?




Same as jar994 above.
If you use a thin push stick on lets say a 75mm board and you have the push stick close to the fence that will tend to push the far end of the cut into the rear of the blade.
In my list of things to do I should have also mentioned not to have the blade set to high for the thickness of the wood to be cut and that a riving knife should always be used regardless of the type of cut.


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## Cabinetman (8 Mar 2021)

Well I would suggest you go back and read all of this thread and also my thread with regard to push sticks a little bit further down the list, 40 to 90,000 Americans every year have to have surgery on their hands and 10 a day lose a finger or hand to table saws, principally because they have to leave the guard off because they are using one of those push blocks which you are advocating. Your life your hands. I would just say that in 45 years of using a tablesaw – always with two push sticks I have never had an accident and I have never ever had a piece of wood thrown back at me . Ian
Edit. Check post Nr 39 on page 2, if you still want to continue using a push block – well I can’t imagine you will.


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## TRITON (8 Mar 2021)

"A rip fence or a cross-cut fence should be used to give adequate workpiece support during cutting (see Figure 2(a)). To prevent kickback, the front of the fence must be set no further than the base of the saw blade gullet at table level" 

Many small or cheap saw tables have fences that are the full length of the table, probably because the mounting on them is so cheapo it cant be a firm support when just mounted on the front. I think its best there to use that type of fence as a base to mount a more appropriate fence onto, maybe one shaped at the business end




> However on a bicycle it’s much less dangerous, so making them wear helmets would be unreasonable.


I suppose it does make a difference depending on the style you ride or where you ride, but potting along. On the main road its likely crush injuries from a motorist will cause the most damage. Offroad those is a different kettle of fish where offs are common, as are trees and large rocks, and going over the bars due to hills it's your head thats likely to contact the ground. There helmets arent just a requirement but a necessity.
Wearing a lid,while not a stringent law should be there as a matter of caution.


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## powertools (8 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Well I would suggest you go back and read all of this thread and also my thread with regard to push sticks a little bit further down the list, 40 to 90,000 Americans every year have to have surgery on their hands and 10 a day lose a finger or hand to table saws, principally because they have to leave the guard off because they are using one of those push blocks which you are advocating. Your life your hands. I would just say that in 45 years of using a tablesaw – always with two push sticks I have never had an accident and I have never ever had a piece of wood thrown back at me . Ian
> Edit. Check post Nr 39 on page 2, if you still want to continue using a push block – well I can’t imagine you will.




The push stick like jar994 and I prefere is not a push block that goes over the blade but is a push stick that also holds the wood down and can be used with the blade guard in place.


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## Cabinetman (8 Mar 2021)

Please check post number 39 on page 2 he is using one like you suggest, and how would you cut a piece of wood narrower than your hand? Using your type your hand has to pass between the blade and the fence it’s just so dangerous.


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## powertools (8 Mar 2021)

I am happy to now step out of this thread and leave it to you and others to decide the best way to do things.


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## Cabinetman (8 Mar 2021)

I appreciate that thank you very much. Ian


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## shed9 (8 Mar 2021)

JohnPW said:


> Isn't the problem is placing your hands so close to the blade? Even with a guard, you should keep your hands well away from the blade by using 2 push sticks.


Personally and certainly based on some of the responses to this thread I think the problem is ultimately down to attitude and mentality. Simply put, people cannot rationalise away the reality of accidents occurring by deciding they are not the sort of people to have them. There also seems to be some minor misconception that safety guards are more useful or applicable to some people more than others. The guard is there as one more tool to ensure the blade isn't exposed and to potentially increase safety, it's not there just for careless people or idiots. Removing it if you don't have to or not exchanging it for other forms of safety equipment if you do is not conducive to safe working. 

Regardless of all the comments and whatever side of the argument people sit, I think it's fair to assume that no one supports the concept of unsafe working and it's unlikely people will naturally change their relative working habits anyhow. The main issue really for me is what new table saw users take away from all this.


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## Inspector (8 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> The main issue really for me is what new table saw users take away from all this.



Hopefully their fingers. 

Pete


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## TheTiddles (8 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> I suppose it does make a difference depending on the style you ride or where you ride, but potting along. On the main road its likely crush injuries from a motorist will cause the most damage. Offroad those is a different kettle of fish where offs are common, as are trees and large rocks, and going over the bars due to hills it's your head thats likely to contact the ground. There helmets arent just a requirement but a necessity.
> Wearing a lid,while not a stringent law should be there as a matter of caution.


I can’t disagree with you there, but I do think people can make a choice on that one, it’s only themselves they will hurt.

Same with saws, it comes with guards and instructions, take them off and cut your fingers off... personal choice.

Let’s not mention who pays for the NHS to fix them

Aidan


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## Tenacity (8 Mar 2021)

Jar944 said:


> I would say that here in the US you might find a riving knife if you walk into the average home shop, but its unlikely you will find a blade gard (installed)
> 
> If you think the lack of a blade guard is scary you should see the site carpenters free hand a long scribe cut on a table saw (no fence) or using them to cope a peice of skirting.
> 
> Speakign of lack of guarding, This spindle moulder video made me cringe



ooh that makes me shudder, all had to do was fix a full sacrificial face and do a push through, just the alone would have been much safer, one slip, one contaminant in the wood and OUCH! Best not to wear jewellery machining like the ring easy to get snagged.


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## Tenacity (8 Mar 2021)

JohnPW said:


> Isn't the problem is placing your hands so close to the blade? Even with a guard, you should keep your hands well away from the blade by using 2 push sticks.


Yep!


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## Doug71 (8 Mar 2021)

For me one of the reasons to keep the guard on is for when those unexpected things happen.

We can all feel confident, in control and focussed (too focussed?) on what we are doing but something unplanned can happen and cause you to "Jump".

An example that I have had more than once is a power cut. My workshop has no natural light so if the power goes off you are suddenly plunged in to darkness. It's a bit of a shock when you are using the spindle moulder and suddenly without warning it goes pitch black, you just have to stand there and not move for a good few seconds while everything winds down.


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## Jar944 (8 Mar 2021)

This thread actually made me curious about sled usage. Are tablesaw sleds used in the uk?


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## Tenacity (8 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I wouldn’t worry about coming on here Tenacity, we value your 40 years experience. Ian


Thanks for the welcome just hoping to enjoy my retirement and making things, safely!  wish I'd never come off the tools years ago.


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## TheTiddles (8 Mar 2021)

Jar944 said:


> This thread actually made me curious about sled usage. Are tablesaw sleds used in the uk?
> 
> View attachment 105485



Not really, why would you use one when you have a sliding table?

It is possible to make a safe sled, I’ve seen two, one made by Steve Maskery, the other by me.

In general they’re a way of reducing cutting depth and increasing danger, not a winning combination.


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## Inspector (8 Mar 2021)

One can put a floating polycarbonate guard on the top of the front and back fences to make the sled safe and you'll note in that picture there is a cover over the back to keep thumbs safe when the blade comes through. One can also add hold downs and clamps easily enough to keep wood where it belongs and fingers away. Unfortunately there are almost no sliders in the hobby class here like you have so sleds are used frequently to good effect. Now if badly designed or handled carelessly then they just get added to the list of things that go cut in the shop.

Pete


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## Jar944 (8 Mar 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Not really, why would you use one when you have a sliding table?
> 
> It is possible to make a safe sled, I’ve seen two, one made by Steve Maskery, the other by me.
> 
> In general they’re a way of reducing cutting depth and increasing danger, not a winning combination.



Interesting.

Sliding tables are very rare here, short of commercial shops with horizontal panel saws. Though even small commercial shops will have a tablesaw sled rather than a sliding saw.


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## DennisCA (9 Mar 2021)

Most people here (europe) don't have sliding tables and use table saw sleds too. I have a sliding table and I use a sled at times. It's just a very handy little thing for doing cuts that would otherwise be unsafe even with a sliding table.


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## TRITON (9 Mar 2021)

> This thread actually made me curious about sled usage. Are tablesaw sleds used in the uk?


  the cat amongst the pigeons.
I'll wager everyone's got a sled, EVEN Tiddles, who as we speak is rushing to fit a guard so he can post a pic  Psst, your perspex sheeting is stored next to your plywood 



> it comes with guards and instructions, take them off and cut your fingers off... personal choice.


Sigh....no it won't. and ill even wager that a fair number of accidents of fingers impacting saw blades did so with a guard in place. You reckon thats a fair assumption ?.
But as has been explained and pointed out umpteen times on this thread alone. Using push sticks and not having your hands within the recommended(by the HSE no less)300mm of the blade is the key. As is using long(minimum 450mm push sticks
You put your hands up close to the blade, guarded or not and you are asking for trouble. The blade just doesnt jump forward, like its possessed out the Omen.

Can you explain how you can impact your blade when your fingers are nowhere near it ?. Clearly not.

Oh yes, you can have an accident without a guard being fitted, nobody is disputing that, BUT, to do so you must break hse golden rules and have your hand close to the blade.

We should also point out that the saw blade projects through the workpiece a mere 1/8th of an inch when ripping or making cross cuts. So should you be crazy enough to actually place your hands on the workpiece and push it through the saw and maybe shut your eyes while doing so, and have your hand in line with the blade so you inadvertently impact it, you will receive a number of very very nasty cuts, but it is unlikely you will amputate anything.
I have to confess here that I break this rule, and have the blade project about 1/4", its so the dust clears off the tooth and the dust extraction on the guard gets it better. I know a pure rebel.

PS I dont wear a bike helmet either, unless of course im riding offroad.


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## sometimewoodworker (9 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> .Th
> This is "guidance" and "should be used" is the operative expression, not "must be used".
> In other words you can do what you like but are advised to use their suggestions, or if not to use alternative safety measures along the same lines or better. It mentions alternative guarding if the crown guard is taken off.
> Some of their advice is not that good - an inadequate design of push stick and no suggestion of using two - which is probably the single most effective safety measure for TS, planer or spindle. And two drawings show hands on the workpiece where a second push stick should be used.


the HSE is clear 


> A circular saw should not be used for cutting a rebate
> or groove unless the blade is effectively guarded.
> This is because the normal saw guard cannot be used.


absolutely they do not prohibit dangerous activities, but if there is an incident (is is NOT an accident) you are in extremely deep dodo up dodo creek with no paddle and your insurance may be void because of your criminal stupidity.


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## DennisCA (9 Mar 2021)

I watched the video more closely and it's 100% user error that leads to the accident, he reaches with his fingers to remove the piece he cut and touches the blade. Just utterly baffling, this is why you use two push sticks, nudge the piece away with one of them. 

That GRRRipper or whatever it's called belongs in the trash.


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## TRITON (9 Mar 2021)

> but if there is an incident (is is NOT an accident) you are in extremely deep dodo up dodo creek with no paddle and your insurance may be void because of your criminal stupidity.



Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
Ergo it was an accident.

And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.

If this helps you
Dictionary definition...


> _noun_
> noun: *accident*; plural noun: *accidents*
> 
> 1.
> an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.



Some key words for you to take notice of. "Unintentionally" "Unexpectedly"

Have a nice day now, y'hear


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## Doug71 (9 Mar 2021)

Unfortunately too many people use sleds which is why the guard often comes off. 

I always say it but if sleds were a good/safe idea the machinery manufacturers would be making them and falling over themselves to get you to buy their latest model. I don't know of any available commercially and the homemade element just adds to the dangers.

Just buy a slider, much safer.


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## shed9 (9 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
> Ergo it was an accident.
> 
> And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.
> ...


In the context of the HSE which is exactly what sometimewoodworker was referring to it is indeed an incident, it may be an incident of an accident but it is very definitely an incident. I'll forgo throwing the Webster definition of incident into the conversation as none of us are children and there is really no need to condescend each other. This is a discussion aimed at safety guards, not each other. The consequence of an incident involving the attendance of the HSE (i.e. the dangerous removal of blade guards) will usually result in criminality being brought into that equation irrespective of the accidental unintentional unexpectedness of the incident. Your golden rule of 'Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade', whilst good advice, does not devoid HSE criminal prosecution if there is no blade guard in the case of a blade guard being needed. 

I get it, use your equipment how you want and no one is arguing with that but please refrain from reiterating the concept that safety guards are pointless on an open forum, a forum full of people looking to learn and absorb the collective experience from it. No amount of semantics will rationalise away the fact that safety guards help to prevent life changing events. Ignoring basic safety measures whilst using a table saw is dangerous to the operator and those around them, we should be discussing how to improve on safety guards being in place not the merit of them being there or not.


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## Jacob (9 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> .....Your golden rule of 'Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade', whilst good advice, does not devoid HSE criminal prosecution if there is no blade guard .....


I think it does. You are not going to be prosecuted for doing something safely and not having an accident. 
The rules make it clear that they are for guidance: "This information sheet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do."


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## TheTiddles (9 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
> Ergo it was an accident.
> 
> And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.
> ...



Here’s an imaginary story for you...

A person has ten pints, gets in their car, doesn’t put their seatbelt on and crashes into a wall, they die. Is this an accident?

By your logic yes. They didn’t deliberately intend to crash.

By many others no. The person deliberately created an unsafe condition.

I’m not sure anyone cares that your thinking is incorrect, but it is by any standard of a competent person, which is the test.

At least we all agree taking guards off is a bad idea, which is the crux of the matter.

Aidan


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## JohnPW (9 Mar 2021)

It's interesting that the HSE good practice/safe working practices seem to be recommendations and are not compulsory.



https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf




https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf



"This information sheet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do."

"A push-stick should always be used when making any cut less than 300 mm in length or when feeding the last 300 mm of a longer cut. Push-sticks should be at least 450 mm long with a ‘bird’s mouth’ (see Figure 3)."

"A push-stick MUST be available to feed the last 300 mm of a cut and remove the cut piece and off-cut. Push-sticks should be at least 450mm long with a "bird's mouth"."

Note that they don't actually say you must use a push stick. 

Obviously if an employer doesn't follow the safe working practices and an employee get injured, they could be taken to court for neglience.


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## shed9 (9 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> I think it does. You are not going to be prosecuted for doing something safely and not having an accident.


If the HSE are aware of guards being unnecessarily removed, irrespective of accidents occurring or not they will intervene and that includes the possibility of prosecution. Again, semantics will not dilute the overall legality of safety guards within a commercial environment.

Imagine if this was a thread about a pro shop of which the HSE was fully aware that safety guards were none existent but were prepared to let it slide because everyone could produce a push stick if asked, and they could all recite 'the golden rule'? Yes, it's part of the process but it doesn't totally replace other working practices. Would we be back slapping the HSE for being loosely pragmatic about safety or be concerned that the one body meant to protect people in the workplace was not fit for purpose?


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## DennisCA (9 Mar 2021)

Doug71 said:


> Unfortunately too many people use sleds which is why the guard often comes off.
> 
> I always say it but if sleds were a good/safe idea the machinery manufacturers would be making them and falling over themselves to get you to buy their latest model. I don't know of any available commercially and the homemade element just adds to the dangers.
> 
> Just buy a slider, much safer.



I have a slider and I don't use the guard. Sleds are fine IMO.

edit: Overarm guard solves the issue btw.


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## Jacob (9 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> ..... semantics will not dilute the overall legality of safety guards within a commercial environment.
> ....everyone could produce a push stick if asked....


The guidance doesn't exclude alternative safe practices. Being able to wave a push stick but not using them would be _faking_ a safe practice, like taking off guards as soon as HSE is out of the door.
The critical issue with push sticks is their accident record in use, which I assume is very low. Could be wrong - is there a hidden hazard?
PS I've never used a sled but have always had a sliding table. Still use push sticks with that if contact/pressure needed close to the blade, e.g. short pieces being cross cut. 
PPS I use the fence on the sliding table in front of the workpiece, not behind it, so have to hold the workpiece up to the fence. Seems better control somehow, not least because you don't have to lean over the fence to see how things are lying, you get a good clear view from the back.


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## simonh (9 Mar 2021)

A lot in the US seem to like the low slung push sticks or Grrrpr blocks to push the material down and forward. I found my best investment was the JessEm clear cut guides that keep the stock pushed down and toward the fence, then I can just use a birds beak type long sticks to push the material. I use a pair so that my hands aren't free and everything is done with the disposable push sticks


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## Just4Fun (9 Mar 2021)

OK, as a hand-tool woodworker I am totally the wrong person to comment on any power tool thread so this may be a silly question; if so, please excuse my ignorance.

Circular saws and mitre saws have a guarded blade and the guard is automatically moved out of the way during a cut. Is it possible to do the same thing with a table saw? I can imagine ways of doing it in some cases but does any manufacturer actually do it? Does anyone devise their own automatically-moving guard? Or is it always up to the user to place the guard in position?


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## shed9 (9 Mar 2021)

To potentially add some more positive to this thread, there were actually some good points to take away from the original video in the first post, mainly aspects like;

> Planning
> Eye and ear protection
> The reality of being able to use a phone if you need to
> Availability of good bleed control
> Staying calm
> To know where your relevant emergency facilities are

Given the impact of COVID, some A&E's around the globe have limited access and in some cases are simply not available to the extent that you may likely need it should that need arise. All the more reason to make sure you are prepared and know what options you have relevant to the changing circumstances. I have several Stein Bleed Control kits around me, I keep one in my workshop, one with my chainsaw pack and one in the gator. I know people whose lives have been saved with packs like these, albeit for chainsaw injuries. There are cheaper (and more expensive) kits available and you can easily make your own up with Celox or Woundclot powders, tourniquets and bandages, etc. I know the status of my local A&E's and link to them via social media to pick up on changes. When working alone at home with machinery, I make sure I have a working phone with speed dial and tell people where I am and what I'm doing. There are lots to add to that process but it's a case of knowing that it doesn't hurt to review your options before you potentially have an accident is my point.

To add, I'm not some retentive safety overlord, I'm just not fond of pain is all and I genuinely cannot afford to injure myself, not that anyone else probably can.


----------



## TRITON (9 Mar 2021)

I'm out, it's clear you people don't drink enough Vodka.


----------



## Doug71 (9 Mar 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> OK, as a hand-tool woodworker I am totally the wrong person to comment on any power tool thread so this may be a silly question; if so, please excuse my ignorance.
> 
> Circular saws and mitre saws have a guarded blade and the guard is automatically moved out of the way during a cut. Is it possible to do the same thing with a table saw? I can imagine ways of doing it in some cases but does any manufacturer actually do it? Does anyone devise their own automatically-moving guard? Or is it always up to the user to place the guard in position?



The proper SUVA type guards that you would expect to find in a professional workshop ride up over the wood as you push it through then drop down again once you have finished the cut so the blade is always covered. You can get different ones to be mounted on the riving knife or overhead. 

The only thing I wonder about them is if you had your hand on the wood as you pushed it through it would lift up and let you cut your hand, I guess some might be available with a height stop so you can set it to not lift above the level of the timber 










SUVA S315 Circular Saw Guard with Riving Knife


The SUVA S315 Safety Guard and riving knife kit for table saws with blades upto 315mm diameter. This replacement saw guard rises and falls with the sawblade and is independent from the saw blade: when timber passes underneath the blade the guard rises and falls. This improves safety and...




www.scosarg.com


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## Jar944 (9 Mar 2021)

DennisCA said:


> I have a slider and I don't use the guard. Sleds are fine IMO.
> 
> edit: Overarm guard solves the issue btw.



I use a overarm, but it gets in the way of the sled. (Joking)

It does keep you from cutting your fingers off when ripping though.


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## TRITON (9 Mar 2021)

OMG  Look at the size of that workshop.

I've got workshop envy now.


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## MarkDennehy (9 Mar 2021)

DennisCA said:


> But that and a propensity to put ones fingers near the blade tend to be the main reasons for injuries like that


Well. Kickback can pull your fingers into the blade too. More than one video on youtube of someone doing that or demonstrating that.
Also, kickback can act on the bit of wood that's not between fence and blade, like so:



That one punched the offcut bit through an internal partition wall on the far side of the workshop.
Have I mentioned tablesaws terrify me as much as routers do? 



TheTiddles said:


> Here’s an imaginary story for you...
> A person has ten pints, gets in their car, doesn’t put their seatbelt on and crashes into a wall, they die. Is this an accident?
> By your logic yes. They didn’t deliberately intend to crash.
> By many others no. The person deliberately created an unsafe condition.


I think that's conflating the definition of an accident (which that would be, it's referred to as an RTA regardless of cause), legal liability (which the driver absolutely has in that case) and mens rea (which after ten pints you'd have a hard time proving they had because after ten pints you can't legally be held to a contract you signed because you were incapable - you can't be capable enough to plan a crime while incapable. It *is* arguable that you could have planned to get drunk and then to drive home drunk hoping to kill someone for the lolz becuase that's the world we live in, but you'd have to make the argument. Granted, we have had a few very very disturbing legal arguments on that exact point in Ireland over the last few decades but it's still on the old case-by-case basis...)

Anyway.

On a more on-topic note, James Hamilton (a youtuber you probably all have seen at some point) had a pretty nasty accident with an angle grinder with chainsaw wheel attachment last year and yes, I do believe my knees just clenched typing that, and he has a few good videos on the whole topic (understandably so, something like that would concentrate the mind well) that are of interest (there are one or two others on his channel past these ones if you're interested, but these cover the guts of it, pardon the awful pun):





Personally I hope this one is the one I'll rewatch the most though, because I'm not immune to being a slow learner when machismo gets thrown around...


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## MarkDennehy (9 Mar 2021)

Oh, and there are so many others - the number of videos on youtube of both professional woodworkers/contractors/jointers _and_ youtubers who have managed to put their fingers into a tablesaw, a bandsaw, a router, a spindle moulder, a jointer or even just those woodturners who lost a finger because they had a catch while using a lathe knife, it's almost enough to make you buy furniture from ikea 






The thing that freaks me out completely on this topic though is stuff like the opening bit in this video:



That's Jonathan Katz-Moses (he of the rather good transparent dovetail guide) talking about his accident and starting off by saying that anyone in woodworking is just going to have an accident and it might be minor or it might be an amputation but the important thing is to have a well-stocked first aid kit and a plan.


I mean, stall the digger there a moment - can we talk about this whole "accidents are inevitable" bit? I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with this plan where losing a finger is just an accepted fact of life here  Sign me up with every nanny-state, left-wing, commie pinko anarcho-hippie tree-hugging Health And Safety freak in the world if that's the other option  I mean, yeah, sure, life was great in the 70's but you know what else is different between today and the 70s when I was a kid? Our child mortality rate. It is (in Ireland anyway, check yours locally) currently *one tenth* what it was when I was born. I'm totally in favour of this, not least because Calum is nine and I'd like him to survive to my old age so he can pay for my retirement  I'm totally down with some busybody with a clipboard coming in with his pencils and his glasses and his nasally voice saying "that's not safe, stop it at once" if the alternative is the calm manly dulcet tones of Katz-Moses up there reassuring me that now that I have to relearn how to wipe my bottom with my remaining fingers, I'm a Real Man


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## Cabinetman (9 Mar 2021)

First off, sorry I haven’t watched them all but the first one where the bit flies back through the wall well he’s using one of those damn push blocks and he doesn’t have anything in his left hand to control the other piece of wood, if he had two push sticks I’m certain it wouldn’t have happened.
The last one where the American guy puts his thumb into the cutters of his planer, well it’s very simple he's a total id iot, where the hell was his guard? And I think you said he was the one that said we’re all going to have an accident – no doesn’t have to happen, but people probably will if they follow him.
It really really bugs me that idiots like him think they can stand up and tell everybody else how to use equipment. He ought to be locked up for everybody’s else’s safety. Ian


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## TheTiddles (9 Mar 2021)

It almost seems like the more YouTube videos you make the worse you are at woodwork, safety aside plenty of the most prolific posters are really not making anything very good.

Whereas you have to wait ages for a Doucette and Wolfe post

Aidan


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## DennisCA (10 Mar 2021)

That russian knife tool looks really insanely dangerous, but couldn't you at least but some kind of cross guard on it to make it a bit safer so it doesn't run over your fingers and cut your tenons if you get a catch.


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## docw (10 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
> Ergo it was an accident.
> 
> And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.
> ...


----------



## doctor Bob (10 Mar 2021)

This is my slider. 




It's an old picture from a few years ago. Note the roll of masking tape and the 250mm measuring stick hooked on the side of guard, this was for convienience, however I soon realised that if they were knocked off the natural reaction is to try and catch them. Realised it was an accident waiting to happen,


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## pidgeonpost (10 Mar 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> I saw a carpenters workshop in Rwanda, huge old cast iron machines, no extraction (but plenty of ventilation as there were no walls), open belt drives and petrol engines driving, not a guard in sight.
> 
> Not a single person there had all their fingers, including the children, some were missing several.


Brings back memories of using a big ex-military trailer mounted table saw. It was powered by a two-cylinder diesel engine and I don't know what scared me most, the saw itself or the kick-back when hand-cranking the b****y thing. This saw did not take prisoners.


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## Jacob (10 Mar 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> This is my slider.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mine's similar but a lot smaller! Size isn't everything.
Bobby raises a point - accident caused by trying to catch or stop something. You have to get tuned in to treating your machine like a wild animal - it's OK to feed it meat on the end of a stick but if it growls it may be time to drop the stick and back right off, rather than trying to take control.
If it's going to go, back off, turn away, let it fly, don't try to stop it.


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## alex_heney (10 Mar 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> the HSE is clear
> 
> absolutely they do not prohibit dangerous activities, but if there is an incident (is is NOT an accident) you are in extremely deep dodo up dodo creek with no paddle and your insurance may be void because of your criminal stupidity.


 I hate people saying "it is NOT an accident".

All that shows is your ignorance of the meaning of the word.

"Accident" does NOT mean "unpreventable mishap". It means any unintended consequence (usually negative, but not necessarily).


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## DennisCA (10 Mar 2021)

I think the word people are looking for is negligence


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## shed9 (10 Mar 2021)

alex_heney said:


> I hate people saying "it is NOT an accident".
> 
> All that shows is your ignorance of the meaning of the word.
> 
> "Accident" does NOT mean "unpreventable mishap". It means any unintended consequence (usually negative, but not necessarily).


You do know that your retort in claiming ignorance on sometimewoodworker's part only works if you deliberately ignore the context and ironically choose to not understand the word incident yourself, don't you? The HSE specifically and very clearly separates the two aspects of incident and accident. You might want to do some research and know what you are claiming before using words like ignorance particularly against others in a very personal way.


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## johnbs (10 Mar 2021)

I'm afraid my mantra on machine safety is that I want to *see* the moving part and hence avoid contact. By see I mean unobstructed view. The only time I've cut myself on a "machine" was a bench drill at work; the chuck guard hinged up to allow access for the key, and I cut myself on the scissor-hinge.


----------



## johnbs (10 Mar 2021)

BTW, despite Malcolm's extensive experience and knowledge he still had a horrific accident. There are true accidents which can't be attributed to negligence.









Malcolm Pipes recovers after severing his hand in horrific woodwork accident


A VILLAGE cabinetmaker has made an amazing recovery after severing his hand in an horrific accident in his workshop.




www.yorkpress.co.uk


----------



## JohnPW (10 Mar 2021)

johnbs said:


> BTW, despite Malcolm's extensive experience and knowledge he still had a horrific accident. There are true accidents which can't be attributed to negligence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The only detail in the article relating to the cause of the injury is:

"Malcolm...described how he was suddenly distracted while operating a circular saw in his workshop",

from that, you can't tell whether there was negligence or not.


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## TheTiddles (10 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> You do know that your retort in claiming ignorance on sometimewoodworker's part only works if you deliberately ignore the context and ironically choose to not understand the word incident yourself, don't you? The HSE specifically and very clearly separates the two aspects of incident and accident. You might want to do some research and know what you are claiming before using words like ignorance particularly against others in a very personal way.



I think they’re correct. You remove the guards, you intended to have an incident, therefore not an accident. So nice when we all agree


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## pidgeonpost (10 Mar 2021)

I'm only a hobby woodworker and increasingly use hand tools. This is partly due to the dust risk and partly because in older age there are some bits of me that don't work quite as well as they used to. I'm still quite fond of them though and in no hurry to lose them.
Using machinery less frequently has made me pretty wary when I do use it, but the downside to infrequent use is that it's easy to forget safety advice which might have been ingrained if you were using the machine for several hours a day. My Scheppach table saw has a maximum depth of cut of around 45mm with the guard in place. Not a lot, but usually adequate for my diddly little projects. By removing the guard I gain an extra 15mm of cut - 60mm or 2½" near as dammit, and I must confess that there have been a few, a very few, occasions when I've done just that. It's not something I'd recommend, but 'let him who is without sin cast the first stone' and all that.
Some years ago I was looking for safety leaflets to download from the H&S Executive and came across a report of an accident involving a table saw. It was pretty horrific if I remember correctly. The saw was being operated without the crown guard when an electrician arrived on the scene to investigate a problem with an overhead service of some sort.
The saw operator continued working while the electrician set up his stepladder and climbed up to have a look. At some point he lost his balance or maybe the stepladder shifted, and he fell onto the unprotected and still spinning blade.
It cost him his arm, and I think the saw operator was also injured.
This sort of thing goes through my mind every time I press that green button. Stay safe folks!


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## akirk (10 Mar 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> The saw operator continued working while the electrician set up his stepladder and climbed up to have a look.



In what world does anyone climb up over a spinning blade, and in what world does anyone operating a table saw let someone climb over it?!
There has to be a degree of intelligence in how we operate day to day...

For those referring to HSE - their remit is the workplace, not the private home workshop... it is likely that much of their advice is good, but it must always be taken in that context...


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## Stanleymonkey (10 Mar 2021)

I have recently acquired a Record RPS 825 table saw







The blade guard is cast metal and very heavy for its size. 

because of its weight, it doesn't always move smoothly out the way for sheets of MDF etc. It needs an extra shove to make it lift up. This puts me edge when I'm using the saw and I am wondering if this in normal? I have checked the manual and there are no missing parts etc. 

Should I look into replacing it with a lighter guard or is this perfectly normal?

What do you guys think?


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## Jacob (10 Mar 2021)

I think you are supposed to set it high enough to clear whatever you are cutting. It doesn't rise and fall on it's own - it should go up and down with the saw blade but stay roughly parallel to the table


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## MARK.B. (10 Mar 2021)

Set your guard 1/4 inch higher than your wood and all should be well , having to shove your timber into a saw blade is not ideal


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## Ttrees (10 Mar 2021)

Hello, regarding the above post..
I intend to make a proper overhead guard for my machine.
From what I've seen member Heimlaga has made a really good design that is adjusted
via turnwheel.
It this considered a better or worse system for the "best design" one could get made or buy?
Heimlaga's taken some juicy pictures of his, if you click on the link.
Nevermind, I'll just add them here, hopefully Heimlaga won't mind 
I'll let you click the link for his other pic of it.












overhead table saw blade guard


I've bought a Wadkin AGS 12 and I have found a permanent location for it in the shop, its not going to be on wheels, so it staying where it is. The saw came without a crown guard, the riving knife has been modified for sled work and would need to be replaced to mount a guard on the riving knife...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## TheTiddles (10 Mar 2021)

akirk said:


> In what world does anyone climb up over a spinning blade, and in what world does anyone operating a table saw let someone climb over it?!
> There has to be a degree of intelligence in how we operate day to day...
> 
> For those referring to HSE - their remit is the workplace, not the private home workshop... it is likely that much of their advice is good, but it must always be taken in that context...


The same type of person who tapes on their safety switch of the chainsaw so they can use it one-handed up a ladder balanced on a shed roof... he had a torso and a foot, between it was what has always reminded me of a dropped lasagne.

Dinner time! 

Aidan


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## pidgeonpost (10 Mar 2021)

akirk said:


> In what world does anyone climb up over a spinning blade, and in what world does anyone operating a table saw let someone climb over it?!
> There has to be a degree of intelligence in how we operate day to day...
> 
> For those referring to HSE - their remit is the workplace, not the private home workshop... it is likely that much of their advice is good, but it must always be taken in that context...


It happens in the real world sadly. The first safety notice I remember seeing was as a spotty Herbert in the school metalwork shop. Part of it said 'Some people have been tempted to touch a revolving cutter. Many of them now have only one hand'. It's stuck in my mind ever since.


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## Spectric (10 Mar 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> The saw was being operated without the crown guard when an electrician arrived on the scene to investigate a problem with an overhead service of some sort.


HSE must have had some interesting conversations, the electrician is at fault here because he should have ensured all hazzards were made safe, if not then you just stop. The machine operator at fault for no guard, also for not stopping the electrician from proceeding or working in his area with the machine running and then the boss for failing to ensure PUWER inspections which would have highlighted the missing guard. Ok the operator may have removed it later but then in most places of work the guy would have got a written warning if lucky else been sacked.


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## sometimewoodworker (11 Mar 2021)

alex_heney said:


> I hate people saying "it is NOT an accident".
> 
> All that shows is your ignorance of the meaning of the word.
> 
> "Accident" does NOT mean "unpreventable mishap". It means any unintended consequence (usually negative, but not necessarily).


Accident is absolutely the wrong word. It shows your ignorance of the difference between accident, “event that occurs by chance”which does not presume that other choices have been made (in this case not following HSE guidelines)
and incident that is “something dependent on or subordinate to something else of greater or principal importance” 

The incident that happens because you did not follow best practices that you know of, or are required to know of, outlining by the HSE absolutely, depends on something “of greater or principal importance” 
Guards on saws are of greater or principal importance, precisely to prevent incidents of bodily injury.

If you have a guard that is to all appearances and usual tests in good condition that breaks under normal usage and that allows injury while the machine is being operated in an otherwise safe manner, then you can correctly call that an accident.

So do please brush up on your grammar before trying to police your misconceived idea of differences in meaning.


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## alex_heney (11 Mar 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Accident is absolutely the wrong word. It shows your ignorance of the difference between accident, “event that occurs by chance”which does not presume that other choices have been made (in this case not following HSE guidelines)
> and incident that is “something dependent on or subordinate to something else of greater or principal importance”
> 
> The incident that happens because you did not follow best practices that you know of, or are required to know of, outlining by the HSE absolutely, depends on something “of greater or principal importance”
> ...



So HSE don't know the meaning of the word either.

That is not what the word "Accident" means.

There is no reason to not prefer to use the word incident, that is just as correct, but it is simply incorrect to say that it is "NOT an accident".

Accident certainly includes things that happen by pure chance, that could not have been foreseen or prevented, but the main meaning of the word is just an unintended event or consequence. The fact it was a result of carelessness does not mean it wasn't an accident.


----------



## Stanleymonkey (11 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> I think you are supposed to set it high enough to clear whatever you are cutting. It doesn't rise and fall on it's own - it should go up and down with the saw blade but stay roughly parallel to the table



That seems to be the problem - It's just attached to the riving knife with a nut and bolt - the weight of it makes it rest on the surface and there are no springs / mechanisms to make it rise and fall. I've checked the manual and there are no missing parts


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## Stanleymonkey (11 Mar 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> Set your guard 1/4 inch higher than your wood and all should be well , having to shove your timber into a saw blade is not ideal



It is just attached to the riving knife (which isn't easily adjusted) by a bolt. The cover is solid cast metal and just flops down onto the top. I've checked through the manual and there are no missing parts. I'm wondering whether a plastic blade guard would be better.


----------



## shed9 (11 Mar 2021)

alex_heney said:


> So HSE don't know the meaning of the word either.
> 
> That is not what the word "Accident" means.
> 
> ...


This not a discussion on our collective understanding of the semantics of incident or accident though, its referencing the HSE's use of the respective terms.


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## Jacob (11 Mar 2021)

Stanleymonkey said:


> It is just attached to the riving knife (which isn't easily adjusted) by a bolt. The cover is solid cast metal and just flops down onto the top. I've checked through the manual and there are no missing parts. I'm wondering whether a plastic blade guard would be better.


Tighten the bolt to stop it moving. Maybe you need a new nut and bolt and a few washers?


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## sometimewoodworker (11 Mar 2021)

alex_heney said:


> So HSE don't know the meaning of the word either.
> 
> That is not what the word "Accident" means.
> 
> ...


You do seem to like digging your grammatical hole deeper and deeper, congratulations.

The source for the definitions is Merriam Webster Collegiate Definition.

You are now introducing carelessness, I haven’t mentioned it as being of significance, as a straw man.
Neither accident nor incident preclude carelessness as part of the occurrence, it isn’t important in differentiation between the two and probably is a factor in many incidents and accidents.

The important differentiator is knowingly not taking a precaution (not using blade guards) recommended (in quite strong terms) by the HSE for safety in the workplace. This makes the difference between you probably being criminally negligent in making an incident possible, and you just needing to claim on your workplace insurance because an accident happened. 

The effect on the person and injured doesn’t chabut the consequences to you, the employer, will probably be drastically different.

Do please note this is *only* about a workplace, a home workshop is outside the remit of the HSE and rightly so. Things you do in the privacy of your man cave are your concern, maybe your significant other’s as well.

The HSE gives its own definition of the words that is somewhat different.


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## sometimewoodworker (11 Mar 2021)

Stanleymonkey said:


> It is just attached to the riving knife (which isn't easily adjusted) by a bolt. The cover is solid cast metal and just flops down onto the top. I've checked through the manual and there are no missing parts. I'm wondering whether a plastic blade guard would be better.


As @Jacob said being able to tighten the top guard on the high riving knife is a usual method of raising the guard enough to just clear the wood. My 50+ year old saw has a bolt and lever nut so it’s easy to lock the guard at any hight. However I also have a riving knife that can’t take a top guard and allows for all, cuts while not as safe as your (and my original) guard it’s never allowed a kickback.


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## Jacob (11 Mar 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Hello, regarding the above post..
> I intend to make a proper overhead guard for my machine.
> From what I've seen member Heimlaga has made a really good design that is adjusted
> via turnwheel.
> ...


Looks like a PITA to adjust!
I'd be careful - last year someone posted about a home-made "SUVA" guard which had spontaneously collapsed and shattered, with minor injuries involved. It wasn't a "SUVA" guard at all, just an imitation made with inferior materials to an inferior design, though heimlaga's looks over designed if anything!


----------



## Ttrees (11 Mar 2021)

I like your honesty Jacob, I don't mind if its over designed, 
I see it as little effort for something so important personally.
If you won the lotto, what would you consider as an better alternative
money no object kinda thing.
I'd buy some lexan or whatever for the design, making a proper job of it
I wouldn't be so sore about coughing up the dough for some, if it had something of worth
and not a lash up just for ideas.
Thanks
Tom


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## JohnPW (11 Mar 2021)

I've just seen a Youtube video of someone using a bandsaw without the guard!


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## TominDales (11 Mar 2021)

quintain said:


> I spent a very enjoyable 30 years in a v busy fire service even when dealing with "things that people never considered would go wrong *for them*"...


I've found this section fascinating as someone quite new to this forum, the videos are gut wrenching.

Quitain is spot on. Safety or HSE must come first. Otherwise all else is put at risk.
I've spend 35 years in an inherently hazardous industry, the chemical pharma sector, which apart from manufacturing explosives, most chemical plants are contained explosions. The mantra followed is ALL accidents can be prevented. Should an incident happen, a route cause analysis always finds a cause, and things that can be done to prevent a re-recurrence. As others have said, there is best practice that can be followed for all these operations that mean they can be done safely. Sometimes the safe method take longer, but in my experience, with practice its also possible to do things safely and productively. Most manufacturing these days adopts a SHEQ approach, and the evidence is, the top performing factories from a safety perspective have best qualityperformance and usually the best financial performance (comparing those under the same regulatory framework). This approach has lead to a huge reduction in accidents in the UK/EU/US of the past 30 years, even industries with a shocking history such as construction are undergoing a transformation. 
There is no reason not to apply what we are taught at work to this pastime. It has hazardous equipment that needs to be operated safely.

By the way that angle grinder with chain saw head should require a licencee - when I first saw one I did a google search and someone said their friend has been killed when it kicked back and severed a neck artery.

To be devils advocate and defend some of these US videos. While they are flawed - as pointed out by others- they do help get the safety message out when 'someone' the viewer can identify with' says they made a mistake and what it cost them. If they get the message out to use a riving knife and guard that is a good service. Also just how traumatic an accident can be.


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## pidgeonpost (12 Mar 2021)

Jacob said:


> Tighten the bolt to stop it moving. Maybe you need a new nut and bolt and a few washers?


Yes, sounds like you need a washer or two, a spring-washer, or a spacer.
My saw has a nut-and-bolt arrangement, but the 'nut' is of the adjustable lever type like in the photo, so no tools required to adjust it. 






You can buy them online easily enough.

eBay link


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## alex_heney (12 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> This not a discussion on our collective understanding of the semantics of incident or accident though, its referencing the HSE's use of the respective terms.


Right.

So according to that site, it IS an accident (as I have been saying), unless nobody gets hurt, when it is a "near miss" under the heading of "incident".

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying.


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## TheTiddles (12 Mar 2021)

alex_heney said:


> Right.
> 
> So according to that site, it IS an accident (as I have been saying), unless nobody gets hurt, when it is a "near miss" under the heading of "incident".
> 
> Thank you for confirming what I have been saying.



I see selective reading is in effect.


----------



## pidgeonpost (12 Mar 2021)

Sometimes I wonder whether there would be less stress in the world if we spent more time at the workbench and less time at the keyboard. 
Just sayin'.....


----------



## Daniel2 (12 Mar 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> Sometimes I wonder whether there would be less stress in the world if we spent more time at the workbench and less time at the keyboard.
> Just sayin'.....



Yes, but the forum would become very quiet.


----------



## TRITON (13 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> I get it, use your equipment how you want and no one is arguing with that but please refrain from reiterating the concept that safety guards are pointless on an open forum,


Srry, just really noticed this.
Im not saying that at all, I was saying that user complacency and having your hands close to the blade by not using push sticks were the problem, and to be honest i resent the implication.
NOWHERE HAVE I SAID THEY WERE POINTLESS.

So just tell me theres never been an accident on a table saw that had a guard fitted, Clearly you can't, so what else came into play ?, what would have been the circumstances that led to such an accident. EXACTLY what I've been reiterating from my first post.


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## shed9 (13 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> Srry, just really noticed this.
> Im not saying that at all, I was saying that user complacency and having your hands close to the blade by not using push sticks were the problem, and to be honest i resent the implication.
> NOWHERE HAVE I SAID THEY WERE POINTLESS.


You have consistently downplayed safety guards from the get go and even when you realised the general consensus was against you on that you then switched to it being a non-sensical argument of you being more right than the HSE in terms of the terminology of accidents.


TRITON said:


> So just tell me theres never been an accident on a table saw that had a guard fitted, Clearly you can't, so what else came into play ?, what would have been the circumstances that led to such an accident. EXACTLY what I've been reiterating from my first post.


As already addressed, no one has claimed that blade guards prevent all accidents but how exactly does that comment fit into your previous all-caps narrative that nowhere have you said they were pointless?


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## TRITON (13 Mar 2021)

Nope thats just your argumentative take on it. Safety is the key,and thats all ive said.. I asked you to show where I said pointless and you have skirted about it.


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## sometimewoodworker (13 Mar 2021)

Stanleymonkey said:


> That seems to be the problem - It's just attached to the riving knife with a nut and bolt - the weight of it makes it rest on the surface and there are no springs / mechanisms to make it rise and fall. I've checked the manual and there are no missing parts


I was away from home when I replied before so couldn’t take pictures. These are of my original guard that has been temporarily attached to the side of my saw for pictures and the low level riving knife that I had made for it a few years ago. The knife guard with top guard attached is original to the machine.

down




locked up a little





and a bit more




the reverse side showing the adjustment set screw, this allows you to change the position of the locking lever.





the attachment to the riving knife





and both guards


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## jcassidy (13 Mar 2021)

I think the experts in the Health And Safety executive probably have a better grip on the exact definitions of 'accident' vs 'incident' than contributors to this column.
I do know in military parlance, there's no such thing as an 'accidental discharge', only 'negligent discharge', which in those units which demand high performance, will get you sh#tcanned. This is because if you have your finger on the trigger of a live weapon


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## jcassidy (13 Mar 2021)

I think the experts in the Health And Safety executive probably have a better grip on the exact definitions of 'accident' vs 'incident' than contributors to this column.
I do know in military parlance, there's no such thing as an 'accidental discharge', only 'negligent discharge', which in those units which demand high performance, will get you sh#tcanned. This is because the only reason a live weapon will fire is through operator error.

The only reason an operator will get caught in machinery is operator error. Guards and other protections are only reducing the window for operator error, and opening that window without compensatory precautions us negligent.


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## shed9 (13 Mar 2021)

TRITON said:


> Nope thats just your argumentative take on it. Safety is the key,and thats all ive said.. I asked you to show where I said pointless and you have skirted about it.


I'll just leave this there and wish you well.......................


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## sometimewoodworker (13 Mar 2021)

jcassidy said:


> I think the experts in the Health And Safety executive probably have a better grip on the exact definitions of 'accident' vs 'incident' than contributors to this column.


HSE have their own definition and use that definition. This is not dissimilar to definitions used in law, they are exact and often subtly or very different from general usage. Neither lawyers nor the HSE are arbiters of correct general usage of words nor do they claim to be.

The majority of people use the general usage meanings, as I have been doing, if I am using the HSE or legal meaning I will specifically say that I am.

Simply the HSE definition is different from the general usage definition.

To give an extreme example (that would never occur but could) If they were to define white as the absence of colour then their white would be everyone else’s black, both descriptions would be correct as they would have their own definition. But that would not make any difference to general usage.


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## jcassidy (13 Mar 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> But that would not make any difference to general usage.



Your arguments are internally inconsistent.

The subject of this thread is injuries caused by machinery, and the issue is; can these injuries be considered 'accidents'.

As such, the 'general usage' of the word 'accident' is totally irrelevant, as we are not talking in general but in specifics.


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## Jacob (13 Mar 2021)

accident
/ˈaksɪd(ə)nt/


noun

1. an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury."he had an accident at the factory"   
Similar:   mishap     misfortune     misadventure     mischance     unfortunate-incident   injury     disaster     tragedy     catastrophe    contretemps     calamity     blow     trouble     problem     difficulty     casualty

2. an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause."the pregnancy was an accident"

hope that helps!


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## sometimewoodworker (13 Mar 2021)

jcassidy said:


> Your arguments are internally inconsistent.
> 
> The subject of this thread is injuries caused by machinery, and the issue is; can these injuries be considered 'accidents'.
> 
> As such, the 'general usage' of the word 'accident' is totally irrelevant, as we are not talking in general but in specifics.


My statements (or arguments) are totally consistent.

You are trying to make semantic arguments that don’t exist.

of course the meaning of the word accident is totally relevant as is the difference between it and the word incident.

Go back and read the thread in its totality I am not going to repeat myself because you might have a limited attention span or are being deliberately obtuse.

the answer in short to that question is that it depends on circumstances and decisions prior to the injury If it is correctly called an accident or an incident.


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## Stanleymonkey (13 Mar 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> I was away from home when I replied before so couldn’t take pictures. These are of my original guard that has been temporarily attached to the side of my saw for pictures and the low level riving knife that I had made for it a few years ago. The knife guard with top guard attached is original to the machine.
> 
> down
> View attachment 105790
> ...


That's clever - I didn't think of something with a little lever arm to quickly do it up tight.

Thanks for the pictures - they've been a great help.


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## planesleuth (14 Mar 2021)

Never read such a load of irrelevant old tosh. HSE don't care about your fingers they just care about their government funding so often their rules don't make any sense. Its simple: You pick up a chisel, knife, saw, expect to get cut if you don't use it right. HSE ain't got no rules for fitted chisel guards, fitted kitchen knife guards, potato peeler guards so why create them for table saws? The rule is; use a potentially dangerous device, accept you could get hurt and so if you do GET OVER YOURSELF. Stop rattling on like old trains going down a track you lot and go do something useful for the world!


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## TheTiddles (14 Mar 2021)

planesleuth said:


> Never read such a load of irrelevant old tosh. HSE don't care about your fingers they just care about their government funding so often their rules don't make any sense. Its simple: You pick up a chisel, knife, saw, expect to get cut if you don't use it right. HSE ain't got no rules for fitted chisel guards, fitted kitchen knife guards, potato peeler guards so why create them for table saws? The rule is; use a potentially dangerous device, accept you could get hurt and so if you do GET OVER YOURSELF. Stop rattling on like old trains going down a track you lot and go do something useful for the world!


I heard it’s just you they don’t care about


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## Daniel2 (14 Mar 2021)

One would struggle to sever an artery with a potatoe peeler


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## shed9 (14 Mar 2021)

planesleuth said:


> Never read such a load of irrelevant old tosh. HSE don't care about your fingers they just care about their government funding so often their rules don't make any sense. Its simple: You pick up a chisel, knife, saw, expect to get cut if you don't use it right. HSE ain't got no rules for fitted chisel guards, fitted kitchen knife guards, potato peeler guards so why create them for table saws? The rule is; use a potentially dangerous device, accept you could get hurt and so if you do GET OVER YOURSELF. Stop rattling on like old trains going down a track you lot and go do something useful for the world!


What??? Potato peelers and table saws??? What???

If you're trying to disprove the previous comments of not enough Vodka being drunk, you nailed it....


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## Daniel2 (14 Mar 2021)




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## Daniel2 (14 Mar 2021)




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## bansobaby (14 Mar 2021)

Some of these comments are very amusing
Evolution has given us fingers and thumbs. It also gave some of our ancestors the brain power to design some truly jawdroppingly scary pieces of machinery, many of which are still around, albeit in sanitised versions.
Evolution also didn’t create all humans and their ancestors equally...
I once got into big trouble at a trade show when a fairly new to the job HSE inspector commented that a machine I was trying to market could cause the operator serious injury.....to negate that possibility would have made the machine totally useless... I commented along the lines that it was all part of natural evolution in that once the op had no fingers left he wouldn’t be able to press the go button...
On a serious note, I use guards religiously, and make or modify them to suit my purpose. E.g. cut down riving knives for tennoning on the table saw because that kind of cut is just asking to close up. But I find the biggest thing is the work holding. I seem to spend the most time making jigs/ carriers call them what you will: the further away from the cutting edge my bodily parts are and the more control I have the happier I am.
Some of the stuff you see on YouTube and the like is crazy, I can just about understand removing a guard if it makes the job quicker, but not using one when its perfectly possible is, well, back to Darwin...


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## Cabinetman (14 Mar 2021)

The Darwin awards, the rules are quite specific, and too involved to repeat here (see wiki) but basically you have to remove yourself from the gene pool through death or be unable to reproduce due to your own stupidity.


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## sometimewoodworker (15 Mar 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> The Darwin awards, the rules are quite specific, and too involved to repeat here (see wiki) but basically you have to remove yourself from the gene pool through death or be unable to reproduce due to your own stupidity.


But you also have to off yourself *before* reproducing in a rather spectacularly stupid way.


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## Auldfart2010 (15 Mar 2021)

I thought the HSE was to provide safety rulings so that dodgy bosses couldn't put untrained workers on dangerous machines or environments.


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## shed9 (15 Mar 2021)

Auldfart2010 said:


> I thought the HSE was to provide safety rulings so that dodgy bosses couldn't put untrained workers on dangerous machines or environments.


In part yes, they provide advice and inform on good practice to commercial entities which if not adhered to can potentially result in legal enforcement. From a non-commercial perspective, the information they provide is worth reading, not always relevant of course but worth reading as it's ultimately about operator safety. They actually do a lot more in aspects like licensing and industry engagement. In reality, comparative to the number of businesses that would fall under their remit, there are actually very few cases prosecuted or notices issued.

However it should be noted that due to recent and thorough investigations reported back to this very wood working forum in post 164, it appears we have all been hoodwinked. We now have it on good authority that they are only in it for the money and from now on if you lose an arm because of improper workplace safety practices then you will be told to get over yourself, stop being a train and do something useful for the world. The upside of course is that potato peelers will be spared the bureaucratic horror of being dragged into the HSE's scope of stormtrooper-esq assessment. 

The HSE is seems has been of no use for the last 47 years, who knew?


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## Daniel2 (15 Mar 2021)

I, for one, will never look at my potatoe peeler in quite the same way again !
I never realised that such an animal was lurking in the kitchen drawer, biding
it's time until it let wreak it's havoc upon me.
Gosh and phew !!!


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## Jacob (15 Mar 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I, for one, will never look at my potatoe peeler in quite the same way again !
> I never realised that such an animal was lurking in the kitchen drawer, biding
> it's time until it let wreak it's havoc upon me.
> Gosh and phew !!!


Absolutely. Check the peelings for fingers and other appendages.


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## TominDales (15 Mar 2021)

Auldfart2010 said:


> I thought the HSE was to provide safety rulings so that dodgy bosses couldn't put untrained workers on dangerous machines or environments.



I've learned a lot from this forum and thread, I'm quite new to power TS - having had (and then having to modify the fence, mitre slide, and better guard) a cheap one for 5 or so years (cf 40 years of hand sawing). I have taken away from this thread better was to use push sticks and avoid those over the saw ones. I'm still terrified of the thing. In my experience HSE has been transformational in my working life time. They do tend to focus on where the statistics are bad, so attention ebbs and flows depending on where the Riddor statistics go. There is a lot of nonsense reported about the HSE banning stuff which is simply not true, but usually used as an excuse for someone not wanting to do something.

HSE and 1974 H&S at Work Act have transformed working conditions. - Despite us all not liking being told how to go about our business, this is about life and limb.
-Workplace deaths down 90% (99.9% in most industries) in 45 years, injuries down as well. https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/history/historical-picture.pdf
There are about 2000 enforcement notice per year - still quite shocking.
-HSE gov grant is £120m per year - to put in perspective its about 1/thousandth (corrected) of the NHS budget or 1/3 day of NHS, its at the prevent end whilst NHS is at the repair end of the chain.
-HSE is primarily about work practice but as others have said it also educates the rest of us.

I have personal experience of when the HSE started to get serous in early 1980's.
As a student in the early 80's our prof summonsed everyone to a lecture on safety, he was an impressive, scary charismatic non-nonsense cockney and he put if bluntly, 'since the act, I'm now personally accountable for safety, its no longer the SOs accountability, therefore you will all wear ppe etc and I will take compliance into consideration when signing off your annual grant renewal forms (we got grants in those days). HSE notices went up and we wore safety specs and two people kept their eyes when the inevitable happened in the chemistry lab. It was clear the HSE could send him to prison. HSE was a serious business.
I've worked in manufacturing for 30 odd years and seen a complete transformation in HSE culture during that time. We used to just pour nasty stuff down the drain, now its carefully packaged and sent for treatment. In our 'work environment' the term accident has largely been replaced by other terms such as incident, largely because the view is all accidents can be prevented, whereas the definition of accidental implies it chance is sole cause. In reality a route cause can be found.
There is a lot of mad and bad HSE excuses banded about, eg cancelling pancake raises due to the HSE. Usually this is risk-averse or lazy management not wanting to engaging in doing stuff properly and drives the HSE executive mad, Judith Hackett has railed against it. In my experience the HSE is aiming to help companies and people do stuff - by doing it safely. ie the potato peeling that works well and manages hazardous work safely.

Back to the forum, please keep giving us good ideas on how to carry out woodwork skillfully and safely. Thanks


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## Fergie 307 (15 Mar 2021)

planesleuth said:


> Never read such a load of irrelevant old tosh. HSE don't care about your fingers they just care about their government funding so often their rules don't make any sense. Its simple: You pick up a chisel, knife, saw, expect to get cut if you don't use it right. HSE ain't got no rules for fitted chisel guards, fitted kitchen knife guards, potato peeler guards so why create them for table saws? The rule is; use a potentially dangerous device, accept you could get hurt and so if you do GET OVER YOURSELF. Stop rattling on like old trains going down a track you lot and go do something useful for the world!


I could share some very nasty pictures of a guy who got his loose sleeve caught in the revolving chuck of a 15 inch lathe. It pulled him in and pretty much tore him in half. Hadn't bothered with any of the safety gear, chuck guard etc. In this case the conclusion was that his employer had provided all the correct kit, training etc, and couldn't be expected to stand over him all day to ensure he complied. So useful in this case in protecting the employer. He unfortunately wasn't able to get over himself as he was very dead. Suffice to say I think comparisons with potato peelers are pretty dumb.


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## TheTiddles (15 Mar 2021)

I really wouldn’t bother trying to explain why planesleuth is wrong, you can’t reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into, may as well try and teach your dog algebra
Aidan


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## Fergie 307 (15 Mar 2021)

And if you need to clear something near the blade, turn the damn thing off and clear it. Even with pushsticks the chances of that little offcut catching the blade , and getting flung out in god knows what direction is something I'm sure we've all experienced.


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## Setch (15 Mar 2021)

I've removed the fronts from all my electrical fittings around the house and workshop, as it saves me valuable time if I want to inspect the wiring, or access the screw terminals to ensure they're tight.

I'm sure I could get electrocuted when I turn the light on in the morning, but only if I lose focus. I just concentrate, and accept that there is a risk to using electricity.


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## Daniel2 (16 Mar 2021)

Setch said:


> I've removed the fronts from all my electrical fittings around the house and workshop, as it saves me valuable time if I want to inspect the wiring, or access the screw terminals to ensure they're tight.
> 
> I'm sure I could get electrocuted when I turn the light on in the morning, but only if I lose focus. I just concentrate, and accept that there is a risk to using electricity.



If what you say is true, then you have quite successfully created an incident (no accident, in this case), which is simply waiting to happen.
What a truly Darwinian thing to do. I really hope you are joking


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## Doug B (16 Mar 2021)

Setch said:


> I've removed the fronts from all my electrical fittings around the house and workshop, as it saves me valuable time if I want to inspect the wiring, or access the screw terminals to ensure they're tight.
> 
> I'm sure I could get electrocuted when I turn the light on in the morning, but only if I lose focus. I just concentrate, and accept that there is a risk to using electricity.


On the bright side it’ll be easier to decorate round them now


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## TheTiddles (16 Mar 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> If what you say is true, then you have quite successfully created an incident (no accident, in this case), which is simply waiting to happen.
> What a truly Darwinian thing to do. I really hope you are joking



I think he’s joking mate!


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## shed9 (16 Mar 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> I think he’s joking mate!


Sarcasm alas is lost on the interweb these days, however given some of the previous comments on lack of safety on this thread I can understand why that is even more blurred than usual.


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