# Where does fraud start?



## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2019)

An acquaintance did a job for someone (living in an area where people tend to have more money than sense). He had a quote for part of the job from a (rather up market) timber supplier of £800 then got the wood on line for £500. She accepted the original price, and this was what he charged her (the rest of the job was an good earner, so he didn't have to compensate for anything).
I would have been uncomfortable with this, but that's probably one reason I'm poor.


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## Trevanion (5 Aug 2019)

That’s nothing, I know a couple builders that buy materials for their own work at home or even other jobs and put it somewhere on some other customers bill. 

And things like that and your post are really just the tip of the iceberg, the question should really be “Where does the fraud stop?”


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2019)

Actually this chap had already priced the materials for his own home job into it. :lol:


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## sunnybob (5 Aug 2019)

The answer is with the "more money than sense" statement.
I often hear people whinging about the rip off price they get charged, and when i reply, "dont pay it" I get a blank look.
I always find out the general price of materials and then ask for several quotes, knowing that a general rule of thumb is materials should be around 60% of total cost.
but then again, I have been credited with some sense (occasionally)


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## doctor Bob (5 Aug 2019)

sunnybob":108hjohc said:


> I always find out the general price of materials and then ask for several quotes, knowing that a general rule of thumb is materials should be around 60% of total cost.



I'd go bust very quickly on those figures.


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## Steve Maskery (5 Aug 2019)

doctor Bob":1o94hz76 said:


> sunnybob":1o94hz76 said:
> 
> 
> > ... a general rule of thumb is materials should be around 60% of total cost.
> ...



Absolutely! Depending on the complexity of the job, the percentage of the materials could be anything down to approximately zero. The cost of the labour would be several/many times the cost of any materials.


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## tony_s (5 Aug 2019)

At the same time it seems to me that a humble chippy has, in the eyes of some, to account for every penny (I mean, he doesn't even pronounce his t's so he's obviously a dishonest scum-bag). Wheras, say, a legal practitioner can just add zeros yet is a pillar of the community.


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## Lons (5 Aug 2019)

I'll respond to that as a retired builder. 

The customer has accepted the quote so I don't view that as fraud although I never did that as I'd be uncomfortable with it and would have given back at least some of the savings however I only ever accepted work from customers I felt I could trust or were refered by existing customers and I saw that trust as being both ways.

There are some very dodgy builders out there but also very dodgy customers. I had several instances where customers attempted to sqeeze discount after the work was complete which IMO is morally just as bad as Phils' example and a few slow / very slow payment but those people were quickly blacklisted and no further work accepted however much they begged. 

Profit on top of overheads, wages and material costs is a valid and essential part of business, how else would you be able to invest in and expand the business as well as cover unexpected costs and a failed business is of no use to a customer who wants that business to continue trading in case he has future callbacks.
Materials were usually priced at retail with some exceptions, I rarely would accept work unless I provided the materials ( customers are often very bad at project management ) and I had full control, that way I could ensure it was carried out to my standards and on time. If someone wasn't happy with my price and asked me to cut corners I refused and suggested there look for others who would do that, changing the design whilst retaining quality was a different matter.

I had my business for more than 18 years before retiring and it was very successful though harder work, longer hours and I was paid more managing companies for other people. It was built purely on reputation, I never overcharged but was far from cheapest either, my opinion is that whilst everyone would like a RR for the price of a Mini in reality what they really want is a good job for a fair price. The customer has a duty to himself to do the research and it is after all his decision whether to accept or refuse a price.
e would you be able to invest in and expand the business as well as cover unexpected costs.

The vast majority of small business owners are honest and fair and they work bloody hard, long hours in the business which has undoubted rewards but also drawbacks often having the added responsibility of providing a livelihood for employees, sometimes a heavy burden.

Bob
( thankfully now retired  )


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## doctor Bob (5 Aug 2019)

Great post Bob (Lons). Sums it up.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2019)

I have a friend who was a builder for years before having two heart attacks caused by the stress of chasing debts - he drives for Tesco now and loves it. The chap who did our last bathroom, an old friend of my wife's told us he had only been really badly seen off twice ............. once by a solicitor and once by an accountant.


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## sunnybob (5 Aug 2019)

Ok, I admit my 60% materials figure was based on 40 years ago, and I realise material prices are cheaper than they used to be and wages are dearer than they used to be (relatively).
But I would still question huge estimates, as a matter of course.


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## transatlantic (5 Aug 2019)

Take for example painting/decorating. The materials are nothing compared to the labour.

The problem these days is that you can be unscrupulous, get caught, get a bad name, ...but then simply start up a new business under another name.


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## Lons (5 Aug 2019)

transatlantic":33lge53j said:


> The problem these days is that you can be unscrupulous, get caught, get a bad name, ...but then simply start up a new business under another name.



Depends where you live. Try doing that in a rural comunity and you'll come unstuck very quickly indeed!

Dodgy businesses never did my business any harm, whilst they give various trades a bad name generally, the honest traders become even more in demand. During the 18 years I was in business I advertised only once, apart from my signwritten van and that was a flyer drop when I first started. Everything else was purely by word of mouth. A good reputation has to be built and nurtured, a bad one spreads like wildfire.

What always surprises me is that people are prepared to spend large sums of money without carrying out due diligence and proper research. If you're not 100% sure about a company or the price, look elsewhere and the dodgy guys wont get the work.


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## Lons (5 Aug 2019)

phil.p":3bywjgni said:


> I have a friend who was a builder for years before having two heart attacks caused by the stress of chasing debts - he drives for Tesco now and loves it. The chap who did our last bathroom, an old friend of my wife's told us he had only been really badly seen off twice ............. once by a solicitor and once by an accountant.



I had three instances Phil that really annoyed me, one was a neighbour, a senior GP with a theatre nurse wife earning £150k between them, ( he boasted about that ), he was very slow to pay me nearly 5 grand even though I hadn't asked for a penny up front, had bought expensive materials and done some work FOC. Second was a financial advisor and I had to ask his missus to get a cheque from him for a substantial kitchen extension. Third was an accountant and I eventually said I would do no more work for him if all payments wern't made in full within 7 days of invoice, his wife had a huge list of renovation work that lasted years.
What I learned very quickly was wives don't like being embarassed and are very adept at making their husbands toe the line. :wink: 

The IFA and GP were both tight as a fishes a**e and co-incidentally both Scottish, no insinuations there btw I have a number of very generous friends from north of the border. :lol:
Those 2 were blacklisted and I refused work from them for years afterwards.


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## doctor Bob (5 Aug 2019)

Lons":c5dmho3f said:


> Those 2 were blacklisted and I refused work from them for years afterwards.



Yep, I just say we are involved in big projects, won't be able to fit them in and advise them to find an alternative maker. All nice and polite but quite clear.


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## sammy.se (5 Aug 2019)

I just find it hard to find the good, honest, companies/sole traders. I do try and go by reputation, but people's expectations are so varied, one person's recommendation can't always be trusted. 

As a customer, the thing I value most is transparency and a commitment to doing the job properly. If costs go up during the job, I understand, but only if it's genuinely unforseen. Is rather pay a bit more but have and honest person to deal with.

Tried those online referral websites, the quality of the traders was still dicey.

Maybe I'm just unlucky.



Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Lons (5 Aug 2019)

doctor Bob":29yq3tob said:


> Lons":29yq3tob said:
> 
> 
> > Those 2 were blacklisted and I refused work from them for years afterwards.
> ...



You're more subtle than me Bob, I told them exactly why. :lol: I was always polite of course.

I had a mate who owned a tile shop and employed a couple of tilers and a plumber. He took on a £20k bathroom job for a wealthy Pakistani doctor price all agreed in writing and typical of our trades the lads did loads of extra work, of the usual type "while you're here can you just". 

Job finished and the customer said " ok very happy with the work but now let's discuss price ". My mate ended up cutting his losses eventually and the customer paid him less than £14k for the job, he couldn't wait the month needed to take the guy to court.
Doesn't take many of those to put a small company out of business.


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## Lons (5 Aug 2019)

sammy.se":11cg43it said:


> I just find it hard to find the good, honest, companies/sole traders. I do try and go by reputation, but people's expectations are so varied, one person's recommendation can't always be trusted.


It's definitely not easy Sammy and the only way really is to ask the companies for customer referrals you can follow up and visit, if you can get recommendations from friends and family they're usually the best kind. 


> As a customer, the thing I value most is transparency and a commitment to doing the job properly. If costs go up during the job, I understand, but only if it's genuinely unforseen. Is rather pay a bit more but have and honest person to deal with.


Exactly my opinion Sammy and I think what most customers want.


> Tried those online referral websites, the quality of the traders was still dicey.


I was approached on a regular basis to join the lists and refused as I didn't need to but I got the impression at the time that all they wanted was my membership fees so I'm sceptical. Others with more relevant experience will likely disagree.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2019)

The rule around here was never to use anyone who advertised in Yellow Pages.


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## transatlantic (5 Aug 2019)

I know I shouldn't generalise, but I had my patio done last year and it's completely put me off having any more building work being done. I was quoted for the job to be done in 5 days, and it ended up taking about 3 weeks. Not because of the weather, but because they just wouldn't turn up. I'd have to phone to ask where they were, and they would give me some rubbish about waiting on materials. But really, they were clearly on other jobs.

Unfortunately, I'm not the type of confident person to stand up to them (so their target market!), as I was worried they'd do a bad job or not bother finishing it. 

I'm so glad I paid on job completion, else I would have been in a right old state.

In the end, I was pleased with the work though. Just have to see if it will hold up!


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## RogerS (5 Aug 2019)

I know I struck gold. We moved up here in Feb 2017 and we knew that we had an awful lot of stuff to do. I asked the local farmer who he'd used as I was impressed with the quality of the work. He gave me the builder's name and also a young sparks. 

Met the builder, gave him an idea of what we wanted to do, he suggested coming along to do a couple of rooms and see where we went from there. The quality of his work, our relationship was the best I've ever had. He arrived to start the day he said he would. He opened an account for me at one of the local builders merchants at his discount rates (I checked!). He'd ring me up on a Sunday to discuss and plan the week out. We got on like a house on fire. Still do.

Our sparky is now a mate.


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## Jake (6 Aug 2019)

tony_s":26998ek0 said:


> At the same time it seems to me that a humble chippy has, in the eyes of some, to account for every penny (I mean, he doesn't even pronounce his t's so he's obviously a dishonest scum-bag). Wheras, say, a legal practitioner can just add zeros yet is a pillar of the community.




Can't speak for all lawyers, but all the firms I've ever worked at send invoices with disbursements (ie the equivalent for us of materials) at the cost charged to us, usually attaching the invoices of our suppliers to support those disbursement charges. 

The zeros go on our hourly rates in a honest upfront manner set out transparently before starting to act so the client take, leave or negotiate them. 

But most businesses don't work on hourly rates, so the honest way about it would be just to quote the overall cost without saying X for materials and Y for labour. That way if you win by saving on materials you haven't misled anyone.


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## Dibs-h (6 Aug 2019)

Jake":2gsn3oz1 said:


> tony_s":2gsn3oz1 said:
> 
> 
> > But most businesses don't work on hourly rates, so the honest way about it would be just to quote the overall cost without saying X for materials and Y for labour. That way if you win by saving on materials you haven't misled anyone.



It's the same with garages. I've never seen one that doesn't put a markup on the parts too. If they didn't, the "true" hourly rate might make some folk wince.


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## topchippytom (6 Aug 2019)

Price is a price as long as the job is done correct and the customer is happy.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Aug 2019)

But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.


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## Dibs-h (6 Aug 2019)

phil.p":1iphztig said:


> But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.



That's not right in my book. That's comfortably on the slippery slope to fraud - quoting one thing and delivering something else, unbeknownst to the customer. Bit like quoting solid timber and delivering\supplying chipboard or some manmade material. (pros & cons of each aside).

If he hadn't actually specified the material so to speak - then it isn't so clear cut.


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## Doug71 (6 Aug 2019)

I know one of the big kitchen companies who will invoice your customer directly so the customer thinks they are paying your trade price. Thing is the kitchen firm ask you how much you want them to invoice customer for and credit your account with the difference between what it actually cost and what the customer paid. I don't know how people can do it, obviously I'm no business man. 

I generally add a bit to materials but not much. 

I always give people an idea of what the job will cost and pretty much always stick to it.

Not as keen on working for an hourly rate anymore as feel I need to be working at 100mph all the time and getting too old for that!


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## Trevanion (6 Aug 2019)

The dodgy part of my brain has been wondering whether you could buy bare Radiata Pine for peanuts and pass it off as Accoya timber for doors and windows, paint it up so nobody will ever know and keep the massive extra material cost as profit. Even on the off chance somebody inspects the doors before they're painted most people won't notice the difference between actual Accoya and it's bare counterpart and will be just going off the look of the grain alone. You should get a couple of years out of the scam before anyone even noticed.

Of course, I would never ever do that.

Don't any of you get any ideas either! :roll:


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## doctor Bob (6 Aug 2019)

Like the fella who knocks on the door and says they are doing the mains gas outside and he can connect up your gas bypassing the meter for a grand.
Does it, shows you the meter not turning, punter pays up.

2 weeks later the gas goes out. 
Turns out he has just hooked up a portable gas bottle and buried it. :lol:


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## Dibs-h (6 Aug 2019)

doctor Bob":3vem8jyy said:


> 2 weeks later the gas goes out.
> Turns out he has just hooked up a portable gas bottle and buried it. :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## RogerS (6 Aug 2019)

phil.p":3givco2k said:


> But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.



Are you saying that this is what happened in your OP ? If so then yes...not good. But if not then I'd say it was fine.


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## Lons (6 Aug 2019)

phil.p":33i2r0j6 said:


> But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.


You didn't say that in your initial post Phil, is that fact or an assumption as there are many instances where there are huge differences in price for identical materials.

If he has used inferior materials than he quoted then it's totally out of order.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Aug 2019)

Yes. Sorry, I'll clarify that. The quote was for for first class oak, the customer was shown this and it was accepted. The job was done with oak fence posts with the hearts left in, and already splitting.
Rather more than immoral I'd think.


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## RogerS (6 Aug 2019)

phil.p":e5vlahq8 said:


> Yes. Sorry, I'll clarify that. The quote was for for first class oak, the customer was shown this and it was accepted. The job was done with oak fence posts with the hearts left in, and already splitting.
> Rather more than immoral I'd think.



Deffo out of order.


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## Lons (6 Aug 2019)

In that case Phil in my view it's fraudulent and if I was the customer I'd be taking action to get my money back.

EDIT:
Just to clarify that, I still maintain that the price is largely irrelevant as that's what the customer agreed to but by supplying different, inferior materials without re-negotiation and agreement he has cheated and as far as I'm concerned that's fraud.

Puts a very different aspect on your original post given the facts.


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## marcros (6 Aug 2019)

I am not defending it, but with no standardised and accepted grading system, one person's"first quality" is the next persons "thirds". 

Again, not defending it but if the quote was for oak posts, it would be difficult for the customer to do much. 

Where I think it gets a bit naughty is to show one quote, which presumably shows a full description of the goods, and knowingly buying something inferior elsewhere. We don't know the full story, but I wonder whether he bought them unseen online and himself got stung by getting what he paid for rather than what he expected.


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## Lons (6 Aug 2019)

Marcros is right of course, can you give a bit more detail of what the job actually was Phil?


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## Zeddedhed (7 Aug 2019)

As far as I'm concerned if my clients get what they were expecting, made or built to an acceptable quality then regardless of price or any savings I've managed to make on purchasing materials it's all good.

As others have said a price is a price. No-one makes them accept it.

Recently I priced a job involving a whole load of drawers (MDF stuff, nothing fancy). I always use Blum Movento runners for my drawer boxes, and clearly say so on my quotes. I charge them to my clients at retail price and then enjoy the saving from my discount. My usual supplier was out of stock of the size I needed, and on searching around the web I found an alternative supplier who was dumping all of their Blum stock as they were no longer going to be stocking it.

I managed to get the runners for less than half of what I'd usually pay, amounting to saving of nearly £500.

Did the customer see any saving?

Not a chance.

Do I feel bad?

Nope.

I don't really feel that it needs any justification but anyone who does this as a job will know that whilst about 50% of your prices work out ok, 25% will hurt you and the other 25% will go better than expected. This is mainly the case when every job is a one off. I accept that if you're manufacturing and selling kitchens as some on here do, then that would be totally unacceptable as a business model, but for the guy who is making and hanging a door one day, a staircase the next followed by a couple of MDF alcove units the above scenario is more likely.

So back to my drawer job - Yes, I was chuffed to have made a good lump on top of my wage and overheads and small margin. But I know for sure that within the next few months or so most of that will have gone due to over-runs, unforseens and general nonsense.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Aug 2019)

marcros":3vq2mv6y said:


> ... I wonder whether he bought them unseen online and himself got stung by getting what he paid for rather than what he expected.


He did exactly that.
Bob - the job was handrails down the side of a waterside property to the water. I probably wouldn't have used oak, but the woman wanted it to match other woodwork.


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## Lons (7 Aug 2019)

phil.p":1hruaij2 said:


> Bob - the job was handrails down the side of a waterside property to the water. I probably wouldn't have used oak, but the woman wanted it to match other woodwork.



I could never have done that! I understand that he took a chance and it backfired but at very least he should have come clean and come to an agreement with his customer. What he has done now is sow the seeds of mistrust and that word will spread and cost him future work.

What Zeddedhead said is right as well and in my case customer add on jobs was my worst nightmare. There were very few jobs that worked out as planned and you could see a customers mind working overtime as the work progressed so when you got there in the morning the dreaded words " I've been thinking" were not what I wanted to hear. One customer would stick post it notes on the wall before leaving for work and I dreaded opening the door as I never knew what to expect. Very few of them appreciated that those "little" while I've got you here jobs mount up and cost time and money.


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## Zeddedhed (7 Aug 2019)

Those 'while you're here' jobs are the bane of every tradesman life.

The problem is not just with the extra time and resources they suck up, but also the fact that they themselves can often end up causing other issues, or not going to plan. Once you start on a quick job - hanging a curtain rail for example, it can occasionally go sideways on you.

I refurbished a Physiotherapy centre last year just before Christmas and was finishing out on the 22nd December, on time and just about on budget (my budget - it was on a fixed price) and feeling pretty pleased with myself. An orderly close down for Christmas was on the horizon, with an extended and long overdue break. The client was delighted and preparing for a grand re-opening in the new year. Flyers had been sent to customers, an opening do was planned etc etc.

17:30 on the 22nd and I start drilling for the curtain rail. (Who can guess what's coming?)

A big chunk of plaster drops off, the size of small dinner plate. I'd been careful with the drilling - the usual precautions.

The plaster chunk takes a ding from the freshly painted window cill and bounces left, away from the dust sheet and onto the newly laid engineered board floor, where the sharp corner leaves a huge gouge.

The concrete lintel that I was drilling into drops a massive flake from the edge, further dinging up the window cill (bad news) but also scratching the newly fitted acid etched glass with the custom logo of the business etched into it. It couldn't've been more visible and unsightly.

It was too late to go and buy any repair plaster, and the crater was too deep for filler, so the next day repairs to the lintel and wall above were made, the rail fitted and the paintwork touched in. Drying times meant I was still there at 19:00.

There goes the orderly shutdown for Christmas.

The Christmas break was then ruined by having to be in attendance for the glaziers to come and fit new glass and me having to remove two pieces of glued in T&G flooring and make good on a separate day.

All for nothing.

So in reality the £500 from the earlier post had been spent at Christmas and then some.

Having said all that I feel like a right miserable sod when I say no to clients requests like that.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Aug 2019)

That reminds me of a job I did at home years ago. I had a window to replace, and I knew there was a likelihood of stone falling from above it as I'd done them before. I boarded up the inside to the width of the piece of ply, which was about 8" short of the top. That's not goint to matter a jot, I thought, as anything that falls is going to fall way outboard of it - it's not going to fall inwards at 45 degrees, is it?
The (upstairs) window came out. Everything above it fell - the "lintel" was held together by bits of scrap iron, part of an old bedstead etc. They new how to build in those days. I watched as a piece of shale about eighteen inches long hit the scaffold and bounced upwards through an arc straight through the small gap and through a brand new glass fibre corner bath. #-o  At least it was my own job.


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## sammy.se (7 Aug 2019)

Some of these stories make my smile but also wince. I'm always nervous when my (DIY) jobs go smoothly... I think, wait for it... Something will go wrong any minute now 

Back to earlier thoughts:

Price and quality and scope (what you are getting) needs to be agreed up front.

The cost management side is entirely down to the company / tradesman. If he wants to buy bulk and save money, that's great. Their only obligation is to meet the agreed price and quality and scope.

As a customer I don't mind if the trader manages his costs through trader discounts etc. That's how they run their business. They compete on price and quality, and do whatever is needed to get to the price point/quality customers are happy with.

I think that's fair, and not the customer's business. 

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Lons (7 Aug 2019)

Spot on Sammy but unfortunately I think you're in a minority where customers are concerned. A lot of it is down to TV scare stories, they choose those carefully because it attracts viewers where the good stories where a tradesman does what he says, no dramas etc wouldn't get the target stats they need.
The internet also makes materials prices transparent, not a bad thing but also not always like for like so a customer sees something on a website and it's always the cheapest that sticks in the mind of course, what he doesn't take into account is that the poor tradesman has to spend time ordering, taking delivery and ultimately has to sort out any potential problems and replacements which is why I refused to fit anything a customer had ordered and used local suppliers where possible. 
If you give a reasonably detailed estimate in writing and try hard to stick to that then the price agreed with the customer is 100% legitimate, if you manage to finish quicker then most likely it's because you've put in extra time and effort.

Scenario:

Customer buys a bathroom suite, plumber comes to fit it but there's damage to the bath under the protective plastic and a basin has a hairline crack underneath. Plumber has to go away after spending time ringing the supplier / manufacturer because the husband had ordered the suite and wife at home can't sort it so he wastes more than half a day unpaid, he had arranged for a tiler to come the next day so has to ring him, he also then needs to reshedule other work upsetting his and the tilers other customers.

He fits the suite, all good, gets paid but a few weeks later a bath tap fails due to a manufacturing fault and he has to go back, the bu**er is is centre middle at the back of the bath and a swine to get at, the knock on UNPAID cost is horrendous for the business.
It's not fiction, happened to one of my mates and not as unusual as people might think.

I had an situation a few years ago where I refurbished a bathroom for a neighbour. Expensive suite came from my usual plumbers merchant and took 4 weeks to get from the manufacturer. There was a defect on the shower glass end panel, quick call, I'm a regular customer, plumbers merchant group is a huge customer for the manufacturer so result was an overnight special delivery to me of a replacement panel. Try doing that if you're a one off internet buyer! :roll:


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## Jake (7 Aug 2019)

marcros":2vlanh44 said:


> I am not defending it, but with no standardised and accepted grading system, one person's"first quality" is the next persons "thirds".



There is a standardised grading system, and a clear meaning to firsts, seconds, thirds. There could be a bit of doubt about which of them applies if the species/origin was not specified, but across none of them will first equate to third in another. 

On the basis of the facts stated so far, this is clearly a breach of contract. There's no real additional benefit in going after fraud in the civil sense. It is may well be fraud in the criminal sense, but the police wouldn't be interested anyway so that's entirely hypothetical.

Always interesting to see the tradesmen huddle together after something like this comes out to slag off customers with bad customer stories as way of distracting from the fact another tradesman has clearly done something very dodgy which they presumably wouldn't have done themselves. Don't really get that, brings the whole business into disrepute. Bad apples contaminating the barrel etc.


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## RogerS (7 Aug 2019)

Zeddedhed":16u6i3hw said:


> As far as I'm concerned if my clients get what they were expecting, made or built to an acceptable quality then regardless of price or any savings I've managed to make on purchasing materials it's all good.
> 
> As others have said a price is a price. No-one makes them accept it.
> 
> ...



Spot on. =D>


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## RogerS (8 Aug 2019)

Lons":8hcsv792 said:


> ...There were very few jobs that worked out as planned and you could see a customers mind working overtime as the work progressed so when you got there in the morning the dreaded words " I've been thinking" were not what I wanted to hear....



Jeez..I despair at people. You are spot on. 

When I lived in London, our block of flats had had a historical damp problem for years. The residents committee and management agents had cheapskated and fudged the issue for years. Long story short...I ended up being the chairman of said residents committee to find the proverbial had hit the fan. We went through all the motions etc, due diligence and chose our contractor. 

About a month into the works they explained that they were in a bit of a pickle cashflow-wise since one of their major customers (Sainsbury's) was dragging their heels paying an invoice and so could we pre-pay the next instalment.

Their work to-date was exemplary ..our working relationship spot-on...it was a no-brainer. Of course we did.The goodwill engendered far outweighed the miniscule risk.


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## RogerS (8 Aug 2019)

Jake":3fcc4su5 said:


> ...
> Always interesting to see the tradesmen huddle together after something like this comes out to slag off customers with bad customer stories as way of distracting from the fact...



Oh Jake..that's beneath you with that comment. Showing your true colours, maybe ?


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## dzj (8 Aug 2019)

Some customers would bleed you dry if they could.
Not all are like this though. When my car was damaged in a collision a few years ago,
two people I worked for earlier offered me their four-wheel drive and ute until my vehicle comes
back from the shop. Rather nice of them, I thought.
Getting back to the OP, if inferior materials were used, that's a con job. 
He might get away with it once or twice, but sooner or later, lawyers come calling.


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## doctor Bob (8 Aug 2019)

I think as with life 99% of clients are great but you get the odd one which tries your patience.
As a company we know we're not perfect either so it's swings and roundabouts.
Important thing is to keep everyone as happy as possible.


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## Doug71 (8 Aug 2019)

Zeddedhed":fi55dz7f said:


> As far as I'm concerned if my clients get what they were expecting, made or built to an acceptable quality then regardless of price or any savings I've managed to make on purchasing materials it's all good.
> 
> As others have said a price is a price. No-one makes them accept it.
> 
> ...



I would have passed some of the discount on to the customer.


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## Lons (8 Aug 2019)

Jake":3ev4dgva said:


> Always interesting to see the tradesmen huddle together after something like this comes out to slag off customers with bad customer stories as way of distracting from the fact another tradesman has clearly done something very dodgy which they presumably wouldn't have done themselves. Don't really get that, brings the whole business into disrepute. Bad apples contaminating the barrel etc.



I don't see any huddling together and it certainly wasn't my intention Jake as in my case the very vast majority of my customers were excellent ( apart from the add on jobs which are understandable if annoying #-o ). 
I had very few who didn't pay on time or made life difficult, many were repeat customers prepared to wait until I could fit them in and a lot of them I still regard as friends even though I've been retired 3 years.

There are plenty of cowboys around an they give trades a bad name but just makes it easier to get customers when you have a good reputation.


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## Jake (8 Aug 2019)

RogerS":165wja2a said:


> Jake":165wja2a said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



True colours as ever Roger, true colours. 

So tell me how did bad customers become relevant to a thread about a rip-off tradesman?

Sure, a minority or perhaps more of customers will be difficult or worse. So are a minority of tradesman. So are a minority of lawyers (some might say more). But if this was a thread about a rip-off lawyer, I wouldn't suddenly bring up loads of irrelevant stories about difficult clients.


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## Lons (8 Aug 2019)

Jake":2lpts0we said:


> So tell me how did bad customers become relevant to a thread about a rip-off tradesman?


I think I probably started it Jake when I said there are dodgy customers as well as tradesmen but I can't see quite what your point is to be honest as you freely admit that and imo it's a perfectly reasonable, and relevant, fact to state. 

Is there something else behind this as you seem to be getting your knickers in a twist? :? My appology in advance is I've misread that though.


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## Jake (8 Aug 2019)

No knickers in a twist at all, just seen it happen many times before in various places. 

Apart from my posts, over the last couple of pages, you'd think this was a thread about some terrible customer. As it's the opposite, it just seems like some of weird tribal collective deflection, and its something I've seen happen many times. As I said, I don't get it, as few tradesman would've done what this guy is said to have done, and it just gives trades a bad name unnecessarily and undeservedly.


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## thick_mike (8 Aug 2019)

Question to the pros on here, how can you find a good tradesman? I have jobs that never get done around the house and I’d love to get someone in to do them, but I fear getting a wrong’un so they never get done.

Second question is what are the red flags when you are estimating for a job? Seems tradesman weigh up a customer and a job and either don’t quote, or quote very high if they don’t want the job. What makes you run to the hills?


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## nabs (8 Aug 2019)

also, what is the logic of estimating a very high quote for a job you would rather not do? is it just a polite refusal or a true reflection of the minimum you'd accept to do an unappealing job? Genuine question!

PS I think the happy outcome of trade work depends as much on good clients as it does on good tradesmen.


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## Doug71 (8 Aug 2019)

thick_mike":b80vcusr said:


> Question to the pros on here, how can you find a good tradesman? I have jobs that never get done around the house and I’d love to get someone in to do them, but I fear getting a wrong’un so they never get done.
> 
> Second question is what are the red flags when you are estimating for a job? Seems tradesman weigh up a customer and a job and either don’t quote, or quote very high if they don’t want the job. What makes you run to the hills?



I think the best way to find a good tradesman is through recommendations from people you know and trust although this is not always guaranteed as peoples expectations can be different. If you find a good tradesman chances are he can recommend people in other trades who he has worked alongside in the past. I always feel sorry for people who have to just phone round to find someone, if they can start tomorrow you should probably avoid them!

You can tell if a customer is for you straight away by their house, tastes, attitude etc. 

I don't do the big price thing if I don't want a job, I phone/email them a couple of days after looking at their job and say I have had a couple of big jobs come in and can't do anything for 2-3 months, that normally puts them off.

I have not come across many difficult customers, if you pick the right ones and do everything properly in a professional manner things generally run smoothly.


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## Setch (8 Aug 2019)

The quote high for jobs you don't want is a terrible idea - they always accept, and if you've an ounce of moral fibre, you then feel compelled to do a really good job to justify the ludicrous price. 

It's then that you remember why you didn't want the job in the first place, and that you should have gone with your instincts and just said no.


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## Lons (8 Aug 2019)

Jake":3i5i7t1x said:


> No knickers in a twist at all, just seen it happen many times before in various places.
> 
> Apart from my posts, over the last couple of pages, you'd think this was a thread about some terrible customer. As it's the opposite, it just seems like some of weird tribal collective deflection, and its something I've seen happen many times. As I said, I don't get it, as few tradesman would've done what this guy is said to have done, and it just gives trades a bad name unnecessarily and undeservedly.


Not the way I read the thread Jake, there are a number of comments condeming the actions of the guy in the original post and bad traders in general.

Good and bad on both sides as you, me and most others have said so I don't understand your objection to discussing both sides of the issue, it is an open forum after all and just as in many other threads the subject expands, I certainly can't agree that it's not relevant!.
I repeat, I don't see it as "huddling together" and several of us have said we wouldn't do what that guy did.

Genuine honest tradesmen should never be afraid of cowboys giving a bad name, look after your own reputation and you benefit from that as word soon gets around that you're a person who delivers what he promises.  

On the subject of pricing high because you don't want the job, again something I never did. If I didn't want or fancy doing it I would say so, better to be honest as most people appreciate that and come back in future perhaps with something I did want to do.

cheers
Bob


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## cammy9r (10 Aug 2019)

doctor Bob":3iflarek said:


> Like the fella who knocks on the door and says they are doing the mains gas outside and he can connect up your gas bypassing the meter for a grand.
> Does it, shows you the meter not turning, punter pays up.
> 
> 2 weeks later the gas goes out.
> Turns out he has just hooked up a portable gas bottle and buried it. :lol:



Con man ripping of a fraudster


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## Wrongfoot (14 May 2020)

I think some competition helps focus trades in useful ways. If they're good then they will be able to justify and maintain business at premium charge through reputation and goodwill. If not then competition will keep their quotes lean.

Up here there's a lot more work than builders result is everyone charges a premium regardless of quality and few are willing to take on even slightly challenging work. 

Eventually I got a friend with a building business to bring a team up, even with 4weeks accommodation it was cheaper than local tradesmen and the work was quality. 

Makes you wonder what the margins are even for the cowboys here? Also makes you wonder how they'd manage in a more competitive area?

Took me a while to find the professional ones and they need booking well in advance. 

PS. I also wonder if *too much* competition pushes margins down to the point that even craftsmen have to cut corners to stay in business even if they'd prefer to do things properly?


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## D_W (15 May 2020)

Phil Pascoe":bjph8lgx said:


> An acquaintance did a job for someone (living in an area where people tend to have more money than sense). He had a quote for part of the job from a (rather up market) timber supplier of £800 then got the wood on line for £500. She accepted the original price, and this was what he charged her (the rest of the job was an good earner, so he didn't have to compensate for anything).
> I would have been uncomfortable with this, but that's probably one reason I'm poor.



Here in the states, it's not typical for someone to go to the trouble of getting the materials without a markup. the bid is the legal document. The details on it, unless they are conflicting (like the terms say that the lumber is purchased and sold at cost), don't really matter too much - they're just an itemization. 

As far as car repair goes here - at the authorized dealers, there's usually a parts guy. He's a separate part of the business vs. the service counter. if you are a mechanic, you go to the parts guy and buy parts. Prices are generally OK (not the cheapest, but not too bad). The service counter gets the parts from the parts guy. They mark them up -depending on what they are - 50-300%, and they go on the repair bill like that. If you're OK with their parts markup, that's fine. 

I always thought it was interesting on warranty work that the parts guy would sell me an ignition coil for $42, but it was $120 on the bill from service - on top of shop fees, diagnostic and labor. That would've been the service price - warranty work knocked it back. For anyone with a car with coil over plug ignition, it takes about 15 minutes to diagnose and change (if you go through confirming it's the coil). I always wondered what it cost to get that done as service - if you were lucky and the dealer didn't find something else that "the mechanic strongly recommends" you get done the same day. 

Instead of buying those coils for $42 at the parts counter, i now just get a set of four on ebay for $70, OEM and for a car that may use 4 of them over 10 years, I just skip the diagnostic. I'm not a mechanic. If it ever is something else, I'll address it later when the misfire code comes up in the same cylinder (it never has). 

At any rate, most of the folks who don't charge more for supplies (but fetch them, and eat that time and pay for overhead) are either one man operations near retirement (guys who know they're on their last truck and who are comfortable seem to stop charging what it will cost to get the next one, etc) or they'll be working for someone else soon. 

Of course, most of those folks will also tell the customer if they can't find supplies for less than $1000 that they need to make an adjustment "Because the lumber can't be found for less than $1150".


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## JimB (22 Jun 2020)

Lons said , Depends where you live. Try doing that in a rural community and you'll come unstuck very quickly indeed!
I come from a small village in Yorkshire and shonky tradesmen didn't get repeat business.


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Jun 2020)

As a customer, not a trader, one could easily be concerned by news about how Mr Builder or Mr Car Fixer or Mr Plumber is ripping off dear old ladies.

I appreciate that a job well done at a fair price doesn't make very good news, so views tend to be dominated by reports of the bad experiences.

When I have work done I try to be reasonably clear at the outset what an estimate includes and what it doesn't. As a life long DiYer for most things I have a reasonable idea.

I also ensure that I am updated with any material changes - either due to a change of requirement or other problems. A reasonable spec reduces the probability of both.

I now have a good relationship with a local builder and independant garage both of whom seem honest, professional, and pleasant.

But I have also ocassionally been exploited, albeit in a fairly minor way. Most recent was replacement of a TV aerial. Contractor arrived, looked at job, phone head office, quoted £450. I said no way, price reduced to £250 very quickly, accepted. Still too much but plenty of people would pay the first price which was frankly plain exploitative.


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## Bm101 (22 Jun 2020)

'Most recent was replacement of a TV aerial. Contractor arrived, looked at job, phone head office, quoted £450. I said no way, price reduced to £250 very quickly, accepted. Still too much but plenty of people would pay the first price which was frankly plain exploitative. '

Mind you. 
What's got four legs and goes bshhhhrrr iisssh h trvvv?

Rod Hull's TV


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## DBT85 (22 Jun 2020)

Bm101":2t42clvd said:


> 'Most recent was replacement of a TV aerial. Contractor arrived, looked at job, phone head office, quoted £450. I said no way, price reduced to £250 very quickly, accepted. Still too much but plenty of people would pay the first price which was frankly plain exploitative. '
> 
> Mind you.



I can't abide prices that suddenly drop 40%. My only thought is "you were going to scam me, and you probably still are".

Like glazing salesmen!


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jun 2020)

I'd have told him to swivel.


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## Garno (24 Jun 2020)

Bm101":3rthjlxy said:


> 'Most recent was replacement of a TV aerial. Contractor arrived, looked at job, phone head office, quoted £450. I said no way, price reduced to £250 very quickly, accepted. Still too much but plenty of people would pay the first price which was frankly plain exploitative. '
> 
> Mind you.
> What's got four legs and goes bshhhhrrr iisssh h trvvv?
> ...



As a kid I witnessed my mates dad fall off the roof whilst messing about with the T.V arial, I say witness what we actually saw was him going past the window with a look of sheer panic on his face. Surprisingly he was uninjured, I think even if he was it was still the funniest thing me and my mate has ever seen. That was also the first time either of us had experienced tears of laughter


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## Terry - Somerset (24 Jun 2020)

Needed some double glazing. Got three or four salesmen around . Said to each of them right at the outset I have no tolerance for "got to phone the manager, special discount this week etc etc". One chance to quote a fair/best price.

So I listen to an hour and a half of semi-bullsh only to be quoted an outrageous price. Let me have a look and make a phone call he said.

I showed him the door.

I have no problem with a fair price for decent work, even if it is not the cheapest. If someone tries to con you once, there should be no second chance!


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## D_W (24 Jun 2020)

I'd bet the reason these places operate like this is because it's what consumers really want. Consumers want to be told a price and then believe that they asked for a discount and got it. 

There are subcontractors here who will take money losing jobs because taking them means less money lost than taking no jobs. If they have better jobs, they'll take those first, and if you're a "smart shopper", you'll go to last in line. 

Aside from the amish, the only low price folks all the time are the guys close to retirement who know they're not buying another truck and who don't really need the money. One of those guys did my roof. Good price, truck rusting, but he's almost done. Some of the little details with trim and downspouts weren't done that well, but I think about the price ($9k vs. the next lowest offer of $14k) and feel like that little bit of funny workmanship on the noncritical stuff saved me a lot of money. 

A whole lot of people here want the $14k or $18k bidder at $9k, and they want to complain about the truck or the lack of uniform for the roofers for the lower cost guy. 

Those who want to run a small contracting or subcontracting business and be altruistic are soon taken advantage of by contractors or subcontractors and aren't in business long.


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