# agh This is driving me nuts! (he's on about his health again



## wizer (24 Mar 2010)

Sorry Sorry, move along if this subject bores you..

I'm looking for some advice actually. Prompted by Mark's painful thread.

Since the stomach op, things have been pretty terrible around here. Neither operation has fixed their respective issues and my health seems to be on a gradual decline with the odd 'good week'. What that means is I can struggle through a day doing 'stuff', be that in the workshop, shopping, visiting relatives, etc After any activity like this I just feel shocking. But the truth is that if I really push myself, I can get through it. Lately work has started getting heavy with me and so has the state. Neither want me to be 'on the sick', that makes three of us! I've got 'interviews' with both soon and I'm really not looking forward to it.

What I want to know is what _you _would do in this situation. Maybe I need perspective. Maybe my friends and relatives are being kind when they tell me I am ok 'to be ill'? If you had constant pain in your back and it constantly felt like it might 'go' or 'pop out' on you at any moment. If you felt 'delicate' constantly or if the pain in the morning was at least three times worse in the late afternoon. Would you be able to work? I am an IT Consultant. It requires sitting in a chair most of the day, but I do have plenty of opportunity to move around if needed. My employers have and are doing their best to accommodate me. They are even prepared to let me do reduced hours if\when I come back. But if I can't get through a 'normal' day without being in such pain, should I go back to work feeling like this? What is acceptable to 'put up with' for a human being?

The absolute last thing I want to do is claim benefits. I want my workshop with all my tools, I want to attend woodworking shows and bashes, I want to take my little girl to the park at the weekend, I want to do DIY on my house, I want to _own _a house. All this will disappear the moment I give up and go on benefits. I'll be forever watching my back (excuse the pun). People will always look at me with suspicion, "is he a cheat?". I'll have to give up most, if not all of the workshop. Not just because we'll be down sizing, but because how can a man who's claiming benefit, work on a lathe? Or work any machinery?

I'm going along, trying to pretend this ain't happening. But it is. This doesn't just impact me, but my wife and daughter are coming along for the ride and the feeling of guilt is incredible.

So, honestly, what would you do? I'm not looking for sympathy, you've all been very kind in the past in that respect. I just need some perspective. Should I 'put up with it'?


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## Mattty (24 Mar 2010)

Thats a tough one Tom.

I feel that you have to have 100% confidence in your self and to trust your own judgment on this. No one else can experience your physical pain and thus it's difficult to truly judge the extent of it.

If i where you i think i would probably be driving myself to do everything possible to avoid the state benefit system, as it is a circle of decline that i perceive hard to step out of. That said, if that turns out to be the reality you must face then you should and are entitled to every benefit you can claim and should do so. 
If you do end up 'claiming' then there is nothing wrong with still enjoying your hobby and you don't need to justify an hour on the lathe to anyone (with the possible exception of your gp who will be signing your incapacity forms?). 
Moving forward maybe try and put in place a series of weekly goals and targets to try and achieve with work. If you can get through it then raise the bar. If you can't then maybe lower the bar or look at the realistic alternatives.
Trust your self and good luck mate.


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## matt (24 Mar 2010)

What exactly is stopping you putting in some time at work? If you're feeling shocking after doing leisure stuff what's the difference to feeling shocking have done a days work? I suspect, like most of us, it comes down to motivation? Feeling shocking after spending some time at the lathe is a small price to pay versus work making you feel shocking - subtle difference, or not?

I think you've answered your own question. If work force your hand you'll go back because it's the lesser of all the evils. Until then it suits you better to stay off work, although the passage of time is eroding feeling too as it takes its toll on your family. I think you're reaching a fork in the road so to speak. Deep down I suspect you know what you're going to do and talk just delays the inevitable?

Bottom line - in hard practical terms... Is work going to make it worse? If not, then go back and see how you get on.

On another practical level... you say you're an IT Consultant. What kind? As in can you work from home some or all of the time? Or are you in helpdesk/support role so have to be on site?

I could tell you tales of at least three people close to me who have fought the (health) odds to maintain a "normal" life, complete with work etc, whilst dealing with debilitating illnesses, however, I think this is largely immaterial - they were driven by the things that were important to them. Only you can really work out what things are really important to both you and your family.

I hope some of that has been useful.


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## newt (24 Mar 2010)

Tom have you been told the long term prognosis for your back and gut, as any decisions on your part, should I would have thought, taken this into account.


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## big soft moose (24 Mar 2010)

matt":v46ochoe said:


> What exactly is stopping you putting in some time at work? If you're feeling shocking after doing leisure stuff what's the difference to feeling shocking have done a days work? I suspect, like most of us, it comes down to motivation? Feeling shocking after spending some time at the lathe is a small price to pay versus work making you feel shocking - subtle difference, or not?
> 
> I think you've answered your own question. If work force your hand you'll go back because it's the lesser of all the evils. Until then it suits you better to stay off work, although the passage of time is eroding feeling too as it takes its toll on your family. I think you're reaching a fork in the road so to speak. Deep down I suspect you know what you're going to do and talk just delays the inevitable?
> 
> ...



^ what he said ^

like the man said you've answered your own question and so long as you can tolerate the pain, if all the things you say you want matter to you then you hasve no option but to carry on with the work.

I can certainly see that if you go back to work you will be in awful pain while sitting arround at work , but it doesnt sound like the work is causing the pain, so if you quit and go on benefits you will just be sitting arround in awful pain at home so the bottom line is would you rather be in horendous pain and relatively well off, or in horendous pain and skint, QED


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## wizer (24 Mar 2010)

That's the problem Pete. It just goes on and on and for neither condition do I have any idea what's wrong with me. I went back to the back consultant, he's retired! But his replacement looked me over, checked all my scans and told me that, going forward, there was nothing that could be done surgically. But he did say that the area of pain that I was pointing to (either side of the base of my spine) is not a spinal problem (obvious really?). So he suggested that there could be the beginnings of Rheumatoid Arthritis. He sent me for scans, which I've now had and referred me to Rhumatology. This was three weeks ago and nothing's happened yet. When I phone I either can't get any answers or I just get told to wait. 

The gut problem is the same. When I was discharged I was still in as much pain as I went in with, but they were waiting for results of the biopsies taken from the piece of bowel they removed. That took 5 weeks. When I went back they told me that they didn't find anything 'bad', i'e cancer. But that they could no longer help me and they suspected it could be crohn's. That was a different dept, so I was re-referred. After waiting 6 weeks, I've got the colonoscopy on Friday. The results of that will be 4-6 weeks after.

Interestingly, if you research Crohn's and Sacroiliitis, there is a connection.

It's just a massive waiting game and I can't tell my employers or the state exactly what's happening to me. I'm trying my own diets and physio plans because I get no answers from the NHS.

Matt, I understand what you are saying. Basically grit your teeth and bare it for the sake of your family's quality of life. I do understand that and most days I fully expect to return to work. But then sometimes I just feel like I shouldn't have to go through that. Because my own quality of life will be diminished. I know that after work and weekend, all I'll want to do is be horizontal, as that's the only source of pain relief for me.

The biggest problem with trying to go back to work is that my contract restricts me from then going sick again. Or at least it means I will instantly lose all pay. So what ever happens I will try to go back to work. But that decision will then be the make or break. If I decide to go back and then realise it's too much, I will fall heavily. The current method give me time to organise my life and be prepared for the worse.

I do understand that once you get on the benefit train, it's non-stop to misery. I'm not unaware of that at all. 

It's not as black and white as it seems.


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## big soft moose (24 Mar 2010)

wizer":22fa86cy said:


> The biggest problem with trying to go back to work is that my contract restricts me from then going sick again. Or at least it means I will instantly lose all pay. So what ever happens I will try to go back to work. But that decision will then be the make or break. If I decide to go back and then realise it's too much, I will fall heavily. .



strikes me then that you need a two pronged approach

prong one is to do whatever you can to limit the effects of a potential fall, how much debt can you pay off, can you down size, could you sell the BRM and buy something more modest, do you have pension funds or other assests you could cash in to pay your debt, could swimbo go back to work and you become a house husband etc... it sounds like you have prong one pretty much in hand

but prong two is to see if you can get this clause in your contract changed (it sounds like it may contravene EU law anyway) - if your employers want to keep you (which presumably they do if they have invested trainiung etc in you) then maybe they'd be amenable to a trial return to work without giving up the right to go back on the sick if it doesnt work out, and also like matt said could you do somework from home or have a sliding scale of hours etc


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## wizer (24 Mar 2010)

Well the downsizing thing is in action at the moment. I've just gone through phase one of the workshop clear-out and phase two will see all the wood go. It's hard letting go of machinery as it never goes for anything like what you pay for it and if we do end up with not a lot of income then I'll never get machines of that calibre again. But if I end up on benefits, it will all have to go, no matter what. I'm prepared to downsize if I have to. We put our house on the market today and are looking for a much smaller house. But again, if I end up on benefits I'm really not sure how it works in terms of owning your own house. My wife already works part time and, although reluctant, is prepared to return to work full time. That would mean me looking after our daughter for most of the week and that's basically a full days work. So you hit a brick wall with that idea.

I'm willing to work with my employers to get me back. Working from home just isn't an option, I've been asking for years. There might be a position coming up where it could be possible. But they are reluctant to give me that job until I can give them firm answers as to my recovery.

Getting some answers from the NHS would help tremendously and you would think that instead of 'getting heavy' about benefits, they would treat my case(s) with urgency. Surely the cost of my benefits over the next 60odd years (if I'm lucky) is much more expensive than just getting me fixed and back to work. That really gets to me the most about 'the system'. Not knowing what is wrong with me and whether it will ever be fixed is the problem here. Then I could make decisions.


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## Lons (24 Mar 2010)

Wiser

Really sorry to hear about your troubles man, back pain in particular can be very debilitating and as it's not obvious, people are liable to think you're exagerating.

You can get through it but it will take a huge willpower to motivate you as well as a determined effort to move around at every possibility. I found that doing nothing very quickly affected both mind and body.

My experience wasn't as bad but resulted after 12 months of serious pain at work (a branch manager so desk and car bound), in a laminectomy (I think - memory is getting worse), where they fused 3 discs together. That was 23 years ago and I've never been pain free but found it possible to control with a little effort.

You mention Chrons:- It often is not diagnosed as they don't think to look but easy to diagnose when they do. It can be controlled with drugs and steroids but it can also be very nasty and is more common than realised. You've got to pay for lifetime drugs though, unlike diabetes for example!

My son was diagnosed 4 years ago at 24 but is one of the lucky one so far and has been completely treatment free for 2 years.

*One point - do you smoke? - a very significant contributor to Chrons !*

Hang in there and be positive

Bob


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## big soft moose (24 Mar 2010)

wizer":3od32hq1 said:


> But again, if I end up on benefits I'm really not sure how it works in terms of owning your own house. .



owning your own house is probably a more secure position if you wind up on bennies than renting - for a start you probably wont be on benefits for ever and if you downsized and paid off as much mortgage as possible you could probably manage the remainder with your missus working as much as possible (especially if you renegotiated to interest only until you get back on your feet e.g as your daughter grows up and goes to school your missus would be able to work longer hours)

wheras if you are renting and lose your job , your landlord could well decide he doesnt want dhs tennants and just give you notice

and finally



Lons":3od32hq1 said:


> and be positive



what he said - even if the worst happens and you do lose your job it neednt be the end of the world - thousands of people in the uk are on benefits and for most of them its not an inevitable decent into the underclass winding up living between a brothel and a crack den... while there is no doubt that your lifestyle would have to change it doesnt have to be that drastic and it doesnt have to be for ever.


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## big soft moose (24 Mar 2010)

wizer":2dru0iwz said:


> Well the downsizing thing is in action at the moment. I've just gone through phase one of the workshop clear-out ...



without wanting to sound like a nagging wife , didnt you just buy a dirty great scms







to point out the blindingly obvious the point of a downsize is supposed to be to generate money to clear your debts and provide a cushion if the worst happens, not to reinvest it in big shiny toolage :lol:


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## cutting42 (24 Mar 2010)

Hi Tom

I am fortunate to not have any experience of long term pain/conditions so cannot offer any direct personal suggestions. However my company has dealt with this situation in the past. Where the NHS was not helping in a timely manner (as with you) my company was interested in investing in the future of our employees by paying for private treatment to diagnose and get access to therapies not available on the NHS.

I would use the meeting scheduled with your company to make a proposal asking for their financial support for some private diagnosis which should be much quicker than continuing to wait for the NHS. You should get a clear answer in short order. This will address their current concerns of not knowing which I am sure you can sympathise with. 

I don't know what the costs of a private diagnosis would be but I am sure it would be more palatible to your company than continuing paying you not knowing for how long before you return to work. This will of course depend upon the general attitude of your company faced with this. If it values its employees you should stand a good chance. You mention downsizing your workshop, another suggestion you could make is that you are willing to invest in this diagnosis as well to reach a conclusion. Now it is not for me to comment on your means or how you spend it but it may help convince your company to help you out here.

I hope this is of interest and I hope you get better soon.


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## head clansman (24 Mar 2010)

hi tom 

I think I disgust this previously with you about my mum in laws back get a private doctor opinion its well worth the money , we did for her when she fractured her spine in three places nhs wrote her off saying sorry my dear it's just fair wear and tear for your age 82 , when she seen the private doctor he immediately pointed out the three break in her spine from the xrays done by the (NHS) who haad totally overlooked them, at least if he will tell you what is wrong with you, then get him to move you up the nhs list. hc


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## Lons (24 Mar 2010)

cutting42":2e22jrd1 said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> I am fortunate to not have any experience of long term pain/conditions so cannot offer any direct personal suggestions. However my company has dealt with this situation in the past. Where the NHS was not helping in a timely manner (as with you) my company was interested in investing in the future of our employees by paying for private treatment to diagnose and get access to therapies not available on the NHS.
> 
> ...




Sound advice Wiser if you can present a good case to your employer.

You'll get no change out of the NHS who must grind on at their own pace. they have no interest in costs to the benefit system or your employer - not in their budget.
Believe me I know - 4 of my immediate family work for them! As well as 1 retired heart consultant!

It's amazing how quickly the NHS consultants can respond when they are being paid privately.

I was lucky to be in BUPA but was quoted std NHS treatment at approx 12 months. Privately I saw the same consultant within 2 days, oprerated within 4 days and back at work within 3 weeks! (I was actually never off sick 'cause I had a 'phone which never stopped ringing! :lol: )


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## matt (24 Mar 2010)

At the risk of sounding patronising/pointing out the obvious but I'll say it anyway... On the subject of selling your current house and looking for somewhere smaller... Have you totalled the cost of this, including stamp duty? Are you absolutely sure you would not be better off slicing off a similar sum from your existing mortgage?

With regard to moving things along on the NHS... Find out the name of the consultant that you have been referred to. Then get the number for his/her office. Then speak to them nicely. NHS staff get so much flack that they respond really well to someone with a nice attitude with reasonable expectations, expressed firmly. Always ask how long you should leave it to contact them again for an update. It's amazing how effective this is. (And yes, I am harping on about hearts & minds again...).


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## big soft moose (24 Mar 2010)

matt":2jujy18c said:


> At the risk of sounding patronising/pointing out the obvious but I'll say it anyway... On the subject of selling your current house and looking for somewhere smaller... Have you totalled the cost of this, including stamp duty? Are you absolutely sure you would not be better off slicing off a similar sum from your existing mortgage?



good point , tho as of todays budget the stamp duty may have gone away as far as tom is concerned, as the threshold just got doubled.


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## wizer (24 Mar 2010)

Lons, I've never smoked and haven't drunk for 4yrs

Pete, the new saw was a weakness I find hard to control. i.e Bargains. It was £390. It retails for £520. The old saw is for sale and I'm hoping to get £300 for it, so I'm £90 down. But then I've sold four routers, a philly plane, a sander, a set of panel raising bits, your chisels etc, etc. I'm continuing to get rid of stuff I really don't need. Until I decide to get rid of the machinery, the downsizing is just to get rid of stuff I don't need and get stuff that will make life easier in some way. The new saw will eventually gain me space. 

I know deep down that a big part of the solution is to stop woodworking. Or at least, to concentrate on a very small area of woodworking. Just doing turning is one viable option, but I got into woodworking to make furniture. That's what I want to do. Turning was just a bit of fun. More and more I keep thinking to myself I should give up and sell it all off. But that leaves me with nothing. As time goes on it's looking like something I have to do. Accepting this, in fact any of this, it really very hard.

Cutting\Martin: Yes I see your point. I did see a private consultant about three years ago. It was him who suggested the fusion operation and suggested a surgeon on the NHS. Luckily he waived his fee which astonished me! However, that ended up being a bad move. The surgeon he recommended was a first class foul language alert, of the highest order! He wouldn't even look at me in the eye when I went to see him and wasn't interested in hearing what i had to say. He told me he wouldn't operate on me until he'd done a test called a discogram. This was the most painful experience of my life (and that's saying something). It involved inserting a needle all the way into the joints of the spine and injecting fluid, for me to tell them if it hurt. After the first joint I had to ask them to stop. It was unbearable. They left me on a wheel chair in a busy out patients waiting room in a whimpering mess. That whole incident nearly pushed me over the edge and was a really low point. 

That said I can see that going back to a private consultant could be an option. It's just finding a good one and then hoping his advice will be worth the money. Otherwise I'll be chucking money away and left with naff all. That's a massive risk in my eyes, but one I will consider. I _seriously _doubt my employers will be interested in paying for this. But I will ask.


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## wizer (24 Mar 2010)

Matt you make a good point about the house downsizing thing. My wife is hell bent on it but I'm not so sure. The idea is not to reduce the repayments (as I'm not sure we will really), but to lower the running costs and release some funds. We're talking about selling a 300k house and buying something 185-200k Hopefully the money released will pay off some of the larger debts and give us a bit to do some initial decorating, etc in the new place. Whilst I'm quite good with finances, mortgages confuse the hell out of me and I'm really not sure if this make sense or not. What do you mean when you say slicing off a similar sum from your existing mortgage? Do you mean remortgage for more, releasing funds to pay off the debts? That doesn't seem feasible to me. Plus I'm not sure we could borrow any more in our current situation. 

I'm always polite to the NHS staff, however much it drives me bonkers. The trick is actually speaking to someone in the first place!


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## Daven (24 Mar 2010)

Tom, have you tried pain management clinics? As you know my mother passed away last week, but she had pain in her arm for the past 3 or 4 years so I know how tiring it can be when it is constant.

She finally had a pain block injection which helped (4 weeks before she died bless her), but before that I noticed her general mood would affect the pain a few hours later so I truly believe the state of mind can help. May be worth looking at the British Pain Society website, if you haven't already!

Dave


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## LarryS. (24 Mar 2010)

wizer, best wishes to you mate.

Whatever happens with timescales for diagnosis, jobs, house moves e.t.c. I think that a bloke (and the ladies) need some sort of hobby or distraction from the daily grind of life. If full on furniture making is too costly then why not sell off all the kit and downgrade to practicing learning skills on smaller items ? I made a jewellery box which cost less than a fiver in wood, only needed in theory a tenon saw, chisel, dovetail marker - when doing this you'd be learning and practicing new things which then when you health recovers will only make the full furniture making easier and better quality.

As for your job, perhaps suggest a phased return ? then you could take it a step at a time, employer see's your willing

again, good luck.


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## Lons (24 Mar 2010)

_
He told me he wouldn't operate on me until he'd done a test called a discogram. This was the most painful experience of my life (and that's saying something). It involved inserting a needle all the way into the joints of the spine and injecting fluid, for me to tell them if it hurt. After the first joint I had to ask them to stop. It was unbearable. They left me on a wheel chair in a busy out patients waiting room in a whimpering mess. That whole incident nearly pushed me over the edge and was a really low point. _

Wiser:

It might be that you're one of the unlucky guys who have a low pain threshold.

I had the same procedure as you well as a myelogram and whilst it did hurt like hell, I found it bearable and just something I had to endure to get it sorted.

I think I'm a real wimp - just glad I ain't female as I certainly having witnessed childbirth would have been celebate!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wizer (24 Mar 2010)

Dave, I've been nagging my GP for months to get reffered to a pain clinic. When I was in with my gut problem, a member of the pain team came to see me to get my meds sorted for that specific problem. She was really good and listened to all my problems with both conditions. What she did was re-arrange everything and put me on a whole new scheme of drugs. They are not really any better in terms of pain. But they have helped with other areas like constipation and the old meds put me off my food which these don't. So I'm eating better. As I say, I'm nagging my GP but she just keeps telling me to wait for a diagnosis.

Paul, I've been thinking about what to do about the woodworking for a long time. You're absolutely right, downsizing to something like boxes is probably what I'm going to have to do. It'll be hard to come to terms with and a real shock to the system to not have the calibre of machinery to my finger tips. But it's logical. 

As I say, phased return is a given. They have offered me a lot and I just can't fault them. The decision is whether I should 'grin and bare' the pain. Will I be any use to them if my mind is constantly thinking about the pain. I'll just be a clock watcher. 

Hopefully Friday's uncomfortable video shoot, should begin to give some answers to the gut problems. Who knows, maybe the two things are related. They've co-existed on various levels for about the same period of time. 

I can feel the collective vibe of a thousand woodworkers rolling their eyes when reading this thread. But it's helped. Talking to family can be frustrating because they just want me to 'take it easy' and not worry about this stuff. My wife thinks it's bizarre that I'm considering going back to work, despite being fraught at the prospect of what will happen if I don't. I'll never work the fairer sex out :roll: :wink:


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## Lons (24 Mar 2010)

wizer":1acw1miq said:


> I'll never work the fairer sex out :roll: :wink:



*You and every other bloke on the planet*.

Your financial worries are over if you can sort that one - I for one would pay good money for the answer :?


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## wizer (24 Mar 2010)

Yes you must be right Lons. I always thought my pain threshold was high. I've sat through 6 hour tattoo sessions without a flinch!  About a year before the discogram I had facet joint injections which is basically the same thing and I literally screamed the place down. :shock: :roll: :wink:


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## matt (24 Mar 2010)

wizer":2lv1yodf said:


> Matt you make a good point about the house downsizing thing. My wife is hell bent on it but I'm not so sure. The idea is not to reduce the repayments (as I'm not sure we will really), but to lower the running costs and release some funds. We're talking about selling a 300k house and buying something 185-200k Hopefully the money released will pay off some of the larger debts and give us a bit to do some initial decorating, etc in the new place. Whilst I'm quite good with finances, mortgages confuse the hell out of me and I'm really not sure if this make sense or not. What do you mean when you say slicing off a similar sum from your existing mortgage? Do you mean remortgage for more, releasing funds to pay off the debts? That doesn't seem feasible to me. Plus I'm not sure we could borrow any more in our current situation.



I was really just thinking that you need some capital behind you to actually move house. Stamp Duty is just a classic example of simply giving capital away without realising any benefit. Add to that solicitors fees etc and it all starts to add up to a tidy sum. Depending on the sums and thresholds for stamp duty, and the ability to make early repayments on your mortgage, you may have found it a better investment to pay off some of your mortgage. That way you get benefit rather than everyone else you're paying. 

If you're downsizing to save on running costs then I would apply a similar thought process, especially if you're not anticipating a reduction in mortgage payments. Work out the actual cost to move (not forgetting mortgage arrangement fees etc) and then see if you can speculate how many years you would need to be in a new house to recover that sum based on the difference between the running cost of your current home less your new home.

Bottom line - you will give away £x amount of capital to move. You'll never see it again. Gone, poooph, no more. How else might that be better spent?

And have you thought about turning your heating down yet? (And for the casual observer, I'm not suggesting Wizer freezes in his own home, 18c and lower overnight would be "turned down"...)


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## Escudo (25 Mar 2010)

Tom, if it is any consolation my body is in tatters a well. All self inflicted mind you. Smoking and drinking.

If bits don't keep falling off, they are shot to bits - I'm not going to make old bones thats for sure.

Still as a misfit in an ever changing world I will view the prospect of leaving with a measure of relief.

I am going out with my glass half full, pipper the two extra years in "Suncourt nursing home".

T (aged 45)


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## Ironballs (25 Mar 2010)

Tom, I don't think I can offer any insights or advice, just some support. From several hundred miles away, via the internet.... you get what I mean  

In general I have pretty good health, so have no frame of reference, the only thing I do seem to acquire easily and once a year is a mild form of gastroenteritis. This means I have a gut ache for a few days and can't really eat, if I'm honest the pain isn't that bad and can be controlled with nurofen, but even at that level because you have a pain in your core it does consume most of your thoughts and you feel quite feeble - full on gut rot/food poisoning or flu (proper flu) makes you realise just how fragile we are.

I've also suffered sports related back pain/injury and know how debilitating that is for the few days it takes to heal. All of which is a rambly way of saying I've just about scratched the surface of what you're going through and therefore have only the utmost sympathy for those that have to deal with this kind of pain every day.

It sounds to me like you're doing all you can to explore options and avoid getting into the benefits spiral; and only you know your body and what you can tolerate. I'd agree that you do need something to keep you sane and if woodworking is that something then you need to keep it in your life somehow. I'm a desk jockey by day and mountain biking, woodworking and photography are my energy and creative releases that help keep the balance.

Don't ever feel that you can't water and moan here either, it's a good release for you and there's always the chance some good will come from it. Everyone needs a good rant, I had to get my crappy day off my chest to Mrs IB tonight after class, I've been left in the s*** by a spacktard member of staff this week who almost seems to have been living a double life

Chin up


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## mr grimsdale (25 Mar 2010)

wizer":11pskn5l said:


> ...
> The absolute last thing I want to do is claim benefits. .....


Just picking out a detail - I don't think you should feel any guilt or anxiety about being on benefits, if that's what it comes down to. 
Benefits are intended for all those who for whatever reason find that they can't easily survive by working. There are a lot of them, not many are out and out 'scroungers'. 
Just see it as pay back time for all the tax, insurance stamps etc. which you have paid for whilst working. Your turn now, temporary we hope, somebody elses turn next.
Less than 50% of the population are actually in work - the remainder are all on 'benefits' of one kind or another. It's the idle rich which water me off, especially when they are dodging taxes and gambling with our livelihoods. I'm quite happy about all the others!


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## Blister (25 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":522lhp0a said:


> wizer":522lhp0a said:
> 
> 
> > Well the downsizing thing is in action at the moment. I've just gone through phase one of the workshop clear-out ...
> ...



Come on Mr Moose , Give tom a break :lol: 

You remember how Good it makes you feel ( Therapy ) with a nice new shiny tool sitting in the workshop looking at you


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## devonwoody (25 Mar 2010)

Tom, I can tell you that Crohn's is not a permanent problem, you have periods I think are called recession and other times when your stomach nerves are calm and these are normal times.
So try not to burn any bridges and get through this bad spell.
I remember a doctor saying to me, "its not lethal"


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## StevieB (25 Mar 2010)

Tom,

You, and only you, know how much pain you can handle, what your thresholds and tolerances are and whether you can work at the job you are currently employed in or not. We cannot advise on the original question you posed since we all have different tolerances to pain and two presentations of the same disease are not identical. What we can offer advice on is alternative strategies or thougts for your wider situation. To me you have 3 areas - work, medication and woodworking. Running through these is an issue of finance.

Lets start with work. You state you are an IT consultant, and you appear to have an understanding employer who has stood by you so far. They will not carry you forever however and you have a meeting with them soon to discuss future options. The first thing you need to do is have a plan and some suggestions for that meeting. To show a willingness to work if at all possible. So you need to be able to offer to work part time or flexi time. You need to offer to work from home, or switch roles so you can work from home. You need to show you are trying to help as best you can, while realising that as a company they have a bottom line to protect. The smaller the company the less likely they are to carry you indefinitely, but the more relationships become important and the harder it is to let a friend go. Be positive at the meeting and show willing, as I am sure you will be. In a worst case scenario they have to let you go, start thinking about alternative employment now. You have IT skills, can you do odd jobbing or contract work from home? Can you offer web design services? Can you offer programming services to anyone? Can you set up your own business - IT would seem to have little in the way of overheads and equipment so its feasible to run from where you live.

On to illness and medication - if the pain is so great that you cannot work then you need to seek pain relief from your GP and not take 'NO' for an answer. Change your GP if you have to, or at least seek an appointment with another GP at the same practice, but if the pain is such that you cannot work then it needs medicating. Explain your situation to your GP, about your desire to work, that you do not want to be on benefits and that the pain makes it difficult. Book a double appointment to get the time you need to explain everything. The NHS also offers counselling services if having someone to talk to in confidence outside of family and a public internet forum helps you. Be realistic however, the NHS takes time to do anything and it cannot cure everything. An awful lot of medicine is trial and error and diagnoses are not 100% correct first time. You may well need to play with meds to get the relief you need and you will get different views from different docs. They are not doing it to be deliberately annoying. Going private will get you quicker treatment and a more sympathetic ear, but will not necessarily provide a more accurate diagnosis.

Woodwork - I am going to be brutal here, and apologies if its not what you want to hear, its just my opinion. You need to scale back - big time. As already discussed in this thread, pick an area you can do a bit of and stick with it. Be that turning, box making, scrolling, hand work or whatever. Something that is small scale in terms of size and equipment needs. Make sure its not a chore, something that gives you pleasure, but not something that needs a double garage and 15k worth of kit. So you want to make furniture? No problem with that, but you will still be able to make it in the future provided you are sensible now. Be realistic with yourself - sit down with a blank bit of paper and ask yourself what you want to do, what you need to do it and then temper that with your current finances, your future finances and your desire to support and nurture your family. You very often have good bits of kit for sale on this forum, bought at full price and sold at a loss. Be realistic befoore you buy anything else - is it a requirement for your current needs or is it a luxury? Yes it may be useful for furniture making, but does it pay for itself now in terms of either work saving, time saving or resale value. If the answer to all those is NO then don't buy it - its a desire not a necessity.

As for finance - thats not something that should be discussed on a public forum except in the most general terms. Only you know your incomings and debts and whether those debts are secured or unsecured. You primary aim, if you suspect your income is going to reduce is to reduce your debt burdon as well. This can be something simple like cutting back on expenditure (take away meals, cheaper shopping bill, less going out, less tool purchases, or turning the heating down and putting a jumper on) or something more drastic like selling assets. As you are finding though, resale value of stuff doesn't cover purchase price - as true for tools as it is for cars. If your debt burdon is still so big that you are going to end up defaulting then there are ways to deal with this from Citizens advice, to speaking to creditors directly through to IVA and voluntary insolvency. Noyt all of these are recommended for all circumstances and you definately need to speak to a professional if you are this far in. As to downsizing the house and mortgage, a house is typically your biggest asset. If you have a mortgage on it you can do one of two things - pay more to clear it quicker, or extend the loan period to reduce monthly repayments. Option 1 is usually not feasible, option 2 doesnt tend to save much but can be handy if you need small amounts iof regular cash. It will increase overall debt sthough due to interest payments. To downsize house you can do either of the above, although from your description I presume you are doing it to reduce your mortgage payments and get some equity from your current property. Be aware that you are not a first time buyer so stamp duty still applies, and that to move will cost in the region of 10-15k when you factor in EA fees, stamp duty, solicitor fees, removals and decorating the new place - more if it needs DG windows etc. Above all with finances, don't hide from it as it will not go away - sit down with a piece of paper again, work out what coming in, whats going out and if out is more than in decide how to reduce the out or increase the in. 

Sorry if that is a bit 'sucking eggs' and obvious, but sometimes it helps to have the obvious stated. Whatever you do make a plan and make a start on sorting things out - woodwork, although it may bring you the most pleasure, is the least important of the above areas and while you do not have to stop it completely even in a worst case scenario, you do need to be realistic in your priorities.

Best,

Steve


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## LarryS. (25 Mar 2010)

Tom,

Just to lighten the mood for a moment, a Jethro joke (try to imagine a strong cornish accent).......

....My mate Denzel Penberthy walked into the doctor's one day, 
walked up to the doctor's desk, 
unzipped his trousers, pulled out his todger and flopped it on the desk

"What seems to be the problem Mr Penberthy ?" asks the doctor

"Nothing" replied Denzel, "Its a beauty innit ?"


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## wizer (25 Mar 2010)

hehe Paul, I don't have any problems in that Debt (thankfully) 



devonwoody":3iy8p1xx said:


> I think are called recession



Oh god, not more recession John! :lol: I think you mean Remission 

Steve, thanks for taking the time to shoot me some home truths. To some extent it is 'sucking egg's', I am aware of what's happening. But I can't help hiding from it. Which is why I get myself in a mess like last night. It's funny how things can look in the morning.

There's so much good advice here but if you take a subjective view of all this advice, it's still hard to chose the right direction.

Hopefully they can give me some clues after the brown movie show on Friday and I'll have more info to help me with these decisions. 

One thing is for sure. I'm _absolutely _eager to get back to work. My biggest worry is people thinking that I'm not. But the battle I have is convincing myself that it's possible\viable. I've tried a few times in the past couple of weeks to get myself back into some sort of routine that would give me the feed back I need to know I can do it. But it always fails miserably. I'm not sure that if I was actually going to work it be different. I might be less tempted to 'give up'. But then I've actually been suffering for 5yrs not just 5months. So I know what it's like to be sitting in a chair with beads of sweat running down my forehead, fixated on laying flat. To the extent that on warm summer days I would go to the nearest park and spend my lunch hour laying flat on the grass.

I work within a support department and as such there is not really any homeworking opportunities. Whilst I consider myself a very competant web designer, I have no commercial experience and have my own 'way of working' which doesn't transfer into the real world. As such I think it would be hard enough to get a job as a web developer, but to get a new employer to give me a job where I work from home will be difficult. Especially if I am upfront about the reasons for not being able to work in an office environment.

I've spent the last couple of months seriously considering my options with regard to setting up on my own. I have what I think are some good ideas and I'm certain they would work. The problem is finance. I have nothing and starting with nothing is going to be tricky. One option is to sell up everything and gamble that money on one or all of these ideas. But obviously this is a big risk. These ideas are all based around businesses that would allow me to work mainly from home where I can manage my day. During 'good weeks' I can get by with doing some sort of activity for 2hrs, laying flat for 1hr then activity for 2hrs, etc It's all pipe dreams tho. I just don't think it's viable.

Thanks very much to everyone who took the time to offer advice. Some of it was raw and hard to swallow, but I guess I was looking for that.

I would say that I will keep you informed, but that's obvious


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## promhandicam (25 Mar 2010)

Just one quick thought on what you wrote. Have you had any tests recently to see if you are suffering from depression? If you haven't there are plenty of websites with questionnaires which can help you to see if this may be a problem. I'm quite sure that you don't want to be diagnosed with yet another illness however if you are suffering from some form of depressive illness then treatment for it may well help you to cope with your other problems. I have been treated both medically (prozac) and with therapy (loosely based on CBT) and can recommend both although long term it was the CBT that helped me to address the underlying issues that caused my depression. I really think now, I am much better able to handle problems thanks to the therapy that I had as I have generally a more positive attitude, although this year I am pretty sure that I have been affected by SAD - not something that occurs when living in the tropics!

Finally I can thoroughly recommend a book by Dr Tim Cantopher entitled Depressive Illness - The curse of the strong.

HTH,

Steve


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## promhandicam (25 Mar 2010)

wizer":11f7zswd said:


> . . . I can't help hiding from it. Which is why I get myself in a mess like last night. . . . My biggest worry is people thinking that I'm not. But the battle I have is convincing myself that it's possible\viable. . . . I might be less tempted to 'give up'. . . . Whilst I consider myself a very competant web designer, I have no commercial experience . . . . The problem is finance. I have nothing and starting with nothing is going to be tricky. . . . It's all pipe dreams tho. I just don't think it's viable.



Tom,

You wrote the above _while_ I was writing my previous post.

Steve


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## wizer (25 Mar 2010)

Thanks Steve. That's something that I've tried to ignore. What I can't bring myself to do, is go to the doctor and say "Hi Doc, I'm depressed. Got any Prozac?" It's so easy for people to say "Oh I'm so depressed" these days, that you just sound like a "Slap head back whinger". Despite pouring my heart out on a public internet forum, I'm actually not one to bleat on about my personal problems. The more and more 'real' all this gets the more I talk about it because it's all encompassing. But to be honest I'd rather it just stopped and I could get on with talking about wood and tools :roll: :wink: I'm perhaps one of the more social members here, I've met many of you face to face, but it's still easier to talk about this here than in person with people. Here, people can just ignore me without giving me that suppressed eye rolling look. In person I prefer to skim over it unless I sense someone is genuinely interested. The Christmas before last was a bit of a dark time for me and I really was frazzled. I went to the dock and she sent me to 'Mind'. But I didn't get on very well with them. It was all "think happy thoughts' and 'Count to ten' sort of stuff. MY problems are very real, not just negativity. Since then I've given up on exploring depression as being something that can be fixed. 

You mention SAD. My missus always says I suffer from that. I do dislike the winter with a passion and in the last couple of weeks I've been feeling much better on these sunny days. Is it real tho? Normally I'd be among the people who'd say "oh just pull yourself together and get on with it".

I will check out that book, cheers.


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## chingerspy (25 Mar 2010)

Tom,

I've just read through this thread and there is a helluva lot of sound advice as expected from this forum.

On the health note though, I have had back (muscle spasms) and gut (indigestion, feel sick a lot of the time, just not good generally) problems for a while now.

For the back I was quite lucky in that I can't get it fixed but I have a cure, muscle relaxants, great things, what took 3 weeks to fix now takes 3 days. Unbelieveably about 10 years on from the discovery the doctor still tries to give me painkillers when I run out lol. It's costing a prescription every couple of years to sort. If I get the twinge I can usually avoid the pills by exercising the muscle loose before it siezes up by standing and alternately raising my knees to above my waist lots or rubbing the area like mad to generate heat and massage the muscle. My point is NHS Doctors, even nice ones, don't always know whats best for you. Is there anything you have found that releases your back pain? I think I have read that when you lie on your back things get better? Have you worked out what happens internally when you do that? Does something click, tension release, you generally relax? This might help you identify the problem and a solution yourself.

Another thing you mentioned was the gut. To be honest I've not really had a bad back since I managed to sort this out myself. And my mental/physical wellbeing has improved a lot! Again same doctor, lots of hospital visits (including private), cameras, allsorts, not nice and results all clear lol. I was determined to sort it though so I started ignoring certain food/drink groups one at a time. Wheat/Gluten (mum/sister is coeliac), Veg, dairy, caffiene, then last but not least meat. I was shocked to find out that meat or most likely the meat proteins were giving me so many problems. I am currently a non political vegetarian and feel great most of the time rather than sickly. I've started jogging, woodwork, have more energy and even the back has been better. It might be something you could try to identify if its something in your diet causing you problems with the gut. I'm gutted that it's meat and do try a bit now and then but I usually feel terrible for a couple of days afterwards. I spoke to a friend doctor unofficially and she said maybe give it a year or two and see how you are after that. So I will with the odd temptation here and there 

I really hope something here helps. I equally know how frustrating it can be when you're told to try this that and the other. Fingers crossed for you matey whatever decisions you make.


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## woodbloke (25 Mar 2010)

wizer":38utg3jj said:


> You mention SAD. My missus always says I suffer from that. I do dislike the winter with a passion and in the last couple of weeks I've been feeling much better on these sunny days. Is it real tho? Normally I'd be among the people who'd say "oh just pull yourself together and get on with it".


Tom, much sympathy. I can't add much to the vast amount of sound information that others have contrributed, except to wish you all the best in whichever way you see as the 'way forward'

I will however just add a word about SAD, which is something that SWIMBO suffers from during the winter. The solution is easy and pain free (apart from the damage to the back pocket)...buy a large SAD lamp and sit in front of it for about 40mins each day. It does work :wink: - Rob


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## kasandrich (25 Mar 2010)

Tom, lots has been said already on here, I too think that you should at least ask your employer about working from home. I work from home and it is great gives you flexibility. Benefits to the employer are increased productivity and reduced costs.

I had never met you in person until the Kent bash, and I have never seen discussions of your illnesses, so I was not aware of them. What I can say as a "stranger" is that as soon as I met you it was clear you are not a well man, I did wonder if you had cancer and were or had been on Chemo. This I hope will be reassuring for you in that if you attend any meeting it will be clear that you are unwell. (why not ask for any meeting to be in the afternoon, so they get you later in your day rather than fresh in the morning?)

When did you have your back operation? these things can take an awefull long time to recover from, and then learning to live with what you are left with. My wife had a back operation 9 years ago, she was not in a position to consider working for at least 12 months, and full recovery took 18months. In this time, here employment was terminated by her employer as the Doctors said she may never be fit enough to return to that job. She was pentioned off with the princely sum of £70 per month! After 2 years or so she was fit enough to return to her old job, but the bridges were burned. ......Strangely, there is a job coming up there and she will be applying to go back there....shame 'cos she will lose her £70 pension!


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## big soft moose (25 Mar 2010)

Blister":17ct0po8 said:


> big soft moose":17ct0po8 said:
> 
> 
> > wizer":17ct0po8 said:
> ...



Oh yeah - I know exactly how it feels ( I have just scored a sealey pillar drill of ebay), however the point is whether one can afford it .

The sailent issue here is that yes tom will only be "£90 down" in real terms - but my point was that if he hadnt bought it but just sold the bosch he would have £300 or so more than he has now - and money in the bank is what is needed as a cushion when it comes to keepingup mortgage payments etc.

Course its not that bad because the new saw could be sold off later - possibly even for a profit - but what i'm saying is by all means sell tools to buy more tools but dont kid yourself that the selling part is "downsizing"

I'llleave that point there because I know it sounds a little unsympathetic and like anagging swimbo.


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## big soft moose (25 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":3umryrek said:


> Blister":3umryrek said:
> 
> 
> > big soft moose":3umryrek said:
> ...



edit : this from steveB is exactly what i was trying to say



> Woodwork - I am going to be brutal here, and apologies if its not what you want to hear, its just my opinion. You need to scale back - big time. As already discussed in this thread, pick an area you can do a bit of and stick with it. Be that turning, box making, scrolling, hand work or whatever. Something that is small scale in terms of size and equipment needs. Make sure its not a chore, something that gives you pleasure, but not something that needs a double garage and 15k worth of kit. So you want to make furniture? No problem with that, but you will still be able to make it in the future provided you are sensible now. Be realistic with yourself - sit down with a blank bit of paper and ask yourself what you want to do, what you need to do it and then temper that with your current finances, your future finances and your desire to support and nurture your family. You very often have good bits of kit for sale on this forum, bought at full price and sold at a loss. Be realistic befoore you buy anything else - is it a requirement for your current needs or is it a luxury? Yes it may be useful for furniture making, but does it pay for itself now in terms of either work saving, time saving or resale value. If the answer to all those is NO then don't buy it - its a desire not a necessity.


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## big soft moose (25 Mar 2010)

wizer":2ywzpo6z said:


> .you mention SAD. My missus always says I suffer from that. I do dislike the winter with a passion and in the last couple of weeks I've been feeling much better on these sunny days. Is it real tho? Normally I'd be among the people who'd say "oh just pull yourself together and get on with it".



sad is definitely real - its caused by the deficiency of vitamins (D I think) which are synthesised in the skin in natural sunlight. a lot of research into SAD has been done in the nordic countries where it is a real problem

that said not everyone who gets depressed inthe winter months has SAD, and in your case it might well be attrubutable more to circumstances and the lack of exercise derived endorphins

so before spending money on sunlamps or any other attractive quickfix , i'd be inclined to see the doc and get tested for the vitamin deficiency - you can also use this issue as a stalking horse for broaching your depression related issues - ime it is likely that the doc is more likelyto send you for counselling than just prescribe happy pills


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## BMac (25 Mar 2010)

Tom,

Like others said, there is a lot of good advice in this thread so I have little to add. I don't think anyone has mentioned Disability Legislation yet so it's worth remembering that when you meet your employers they have a duty of care towards you and are required to make reasonable efforts to help you do your job satisfactorily.

I have been through the whole return to work scenario and my employers were quite good but despite my best efforts to return three times (against doctors' orders) in a two year period I failed because, each time, after a few months my health deteriorated seriously and finally my doctors told me I would probably die if I went back again so I started to listen to them then.

Earlier in this thread you were asked if there was any difference between being in pain at home and in pain at work. That is a question I had to answer in my early twenties and I chose to keep working because my doctor and I managed my condition so that I could live with a tolerable level of pain most of the time. This meant charging up with meds before work and suffering at night but it became so much a part of my life I managed to keep going for 30 years. Now, the other side is that, no matter how determined you are, you could actually do more damage to your health by trying to work which is what ultimately finished my career because my body couldn't take any more so you have to ask yourself is it worth the risk? Presently my health is quite good because I've done what my doctors told me and take the bucketful of drugs and injections they prescribed but I know I can't work again which is hard to handle.

You have difficult decisions to make but you should consider your long-term health and try to view your adaptations to your situation as changes rather than losses (took me a long time to do that).

I suppose I might as well tell you what my problem is. I have had Ankylosing Spondylitis and Psoriatic Arthritis (all 6 types) since my early 20's and now have severe osteoporosis of the spine (the cruel irony of AS, it robs calcium to fuse the spine and leaves brittle bones). My spine, neck and ribs are almost completely fused but I consider myself very fortunate because I can still do stuff.

I wish you the very best from your decisions.

Brendan


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## kasandrich (25 Mar 2010)

Please excuse the personal question Tom, but how long have you been off sick?

I assume you have been on full pay?


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## Steve Maskery (25 Mar 2010)

Tom
My future is uncertain, too, albeit for very different reasons.
Very best wishes to you.
Regards
Steve


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## Lons (25 Mar 2010)

Wiser

I can't add anything much to what's already been said but just a couple of points.

Depression has been mentioned and it is a real possibility but in any event you are definately on a downward spiral which is understandable given the weight on your shoulders. Somehow, this has to be reversed whether by medication, councelling or whatever as you'll never turn things around until you're in a better state of mind IMHO.

Give yourself small targets to achieve and take it one at a time.

Back pain: - I've said I have suffered for 25 years. I detest drugs but have to take ibuprofen at times however, a few years ago I bought a "tens" machine for about £40 and when the pain is bad, it's amazing how much an hour or so using it helps.

Do a google for info but here's one link http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/health-products ... t/reviews/

I believe it doesn't work for averyone but the GPs have a facility to loan a machine if you really push it so nothing to lose - try before you buy.

Keep your chin up fella

Bob


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## BMac (25 Mar 2010)

Tom,

I have been thinking about you a lot today and suggestions that have been made for you to reduce your tool inventory and concentrate on less complicated but more practical work with hand tools on a smaller scale that would prepare you for furniture making later on if things improve.

Another idea struck me. You have a lathe and tooling and if you held onto those you could possibly make some money because turning is a feasible way to produce saleable stuff through friends and family, initially, and you could also practice your mini-furniture skills to allow variation in the type of work and stresses on your body. A positive impact would be that some enjoyable activity would help your demeanour and if you made some money as well you would get satisfaction from that. We are both realistic enough to accept you won't make big money initially but word of mouth is a powerful medium and who knows where it might lead. If it all fell on it's @ss you can at least say you tried.

Brendan


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## beech1948 (25 Mar 2010)

Wizer,

I wish you well and hope your issues will resolve in a positive way for you.

We have never met.

I have watched your progress with interest both through the health issues, the ups and downs of tool selling/buying and noticed a note of "being down" increasingly in your messages.

I think that your enemy is depression and most doctors would probably have you on Citalapram (after 5 yrs of fighting the extremes of pain) to increase the seratonin levels in your brain.

My own long term illness caused the same for me but being a stubborn old sod it took me 12 months to recognise that I needed help. In my case I delivered a 4 month consultancy project to Shell Oil about strategy and future plans to rapturous applause from the board. After I went to the gents and cried like a baby for 20 minutes due to the strain of the depression not the work which was of course my usual brilliant stuff..Ha!. I've never told anyone else that before so your not to spread it around anyone I know.

Since I'm a tough old bird it surprised the hell out of me and caused the trip to the docs. The doc was OK ish but not really aware enough but I found that a private 1:1 with a CBT therapist helped.

Equally the underlying illnesses eased once the depression issues were being dealt with. Also going into work became less of a struggle and more of a pleasure.

Worth a chat to your GP - interestingly they have a test procedure for depression already mapped out by the PCT.

I notice also that you are very negative about working for yourself yet this may offer you one of the best chances of escaping the benefit route. I work in my own private company, make a good living and even get involved in some IT every now and then.

If you were more positive that is choose for an hour only to have +ve thoughts then what would you want for yourself, how will you achieve them. Answering the question about what you want is probably the most difficult but most important thing to do.

I find that a diagram always helps but I did grow up as a data analyst and BA.

Best wishes and best regards
Alan


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## dicktimber (25 Mar 2010)

Tom

Sorry to hear about your condition, I had no idea.

anyway here's my advice.

1. You stopped drinking 4 years ago.
Wrong discission. Start drinking again. 
You will either get depressed or not give a f.....
But what ever the outcome you will have a bloody good time, at the pub, then the club, and the lapdancing club...before you pass out and wake up.

2. benefits
you talk about it as if it's a god given right for you to get them.
Wrong.
You are middle class mate, you have a home, car, pay all your bills.
The examination and interview they now give you, if you have not claimed before, is filmed from the moment you entre the door of the building.
If you walk in, and sit down for a 15 min interview you are capable of work. The best one is that you can 'proof read books'. You can do this at home, sat down, laid flat whatever. They have you there cos so long as you have your eyes open you can proof read.
No benefits.
If you are able to walk short distances they will say you are fit enough to walk dogs, and don't think I am kidding.
Everything is stacked against you picking up a penny.
Wrong class mate.
Your doctor/ Physician have given up on you so an assessor thinks if they can't give a diagnosis and prognosis you are fit for work.
The benefit system is not set up for middle class people.
You need to get in with benefit cheats. If you want to go down this route. They will show you how to fill in the forms, and answer any questions they throw at you during the interview.
Your best bet if you really want to go down this route is to become dependant on substances. You will get benefits for this affliction.
The choice is yours.
4
It does not look good when you have a zillion posts showing how you stripped down and rebuilt a TS 2000. 
Then you worry what people will think? 
What do you think, people would think based on this post?
Fit for work or not?
5
If you are set on downsizing then move to a part of the UK where house prices are cheaper. Scotland/ Wales/ you will also get a better quality of life and more for your money or more cash in the bank.

Only you can make the discission for your self and the family.
Only you know what pain tolerance you have.
Whether you like it or not people will still judge you...that's life.
In support, all I can say is whatever you decide I hope it works out for you.
Maybe a prayer at night could be a start, it has been known to work?


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## wizer (25 Mar 2010)

Guys, all I can say is thanks. The replies I have got to this thread were exactly what I was looking for. Real life opinions from people who don't really know me. It's helped a great deal. I'm still not sure what path to take and for the time being I'm going to wait for a bit longer to try to get some idea about what is actually wrong with me. The strongest feeling I have is that I'll go back to work, as that is what I _want _to do. Whatever happens, the workshop will be the last thing I let go of. It may seem logical to get rid of it all but if it turns out that they can do something about my various pain issues, then I'd end up being much more out of pocket when trying to get it all back. So it will be a very last resort, based on the information I have about my health and the future. This thread has given me some confidence and ideas about what to do next, which is what the problem really was. 

I had already vowed to step back from this forum and I'm going to try even harder. Not just because of recent 'goings on' but also for my sanity. I need to get away from woodworking information for a little while. Let my head clear and see if I can gain some perspective. That's not to say I'm 'doing a Mike'. I'll still be popping in often, just maybe not reading and responding to absolutely everything.

Thanks again all.


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## Ironballs (25 Mar 2010)

Tom - if things get really bad moneywise and you have some very good local mates into woodworking, then perhaps you could strike up some form of pawnshop deal, ie you sell your equipment to them, but retain the right/ability to use them with an option to buy back up to a point in time. If it doesn't work out then ultimately they get the gear, but only as a last resort.

Lots of good advice here, but perhaps I could say ignore some of Dickt's advice! There are some good points, but employing the skills of a benefits cheat is perhaps not the way to go!!

To Brendan, I used to work with a chap who had ankylosing spondylitis in his family and was a sufferer, however they also had congenital heart disease and the medications for each were not compatible. He was in his mid 30s, had the spine of a 90 year old man, the heart of an unwell 50 year old and the meds were giving him stomach ulcers. Some folks are dealt a pretty rough hand.

turnip still took the water out of me at every opportunity though. My curse is to be born with red hair. You can guess the rest :lol:


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## Tenon (26 Mar 2010)

My contribution to the excellent advice already given is for you to look at your problem and recognise that your physical and mental health are intimately related. Feeling bad about your health, worrying about returning to work and what others will think about you, worrying about future debts, going on benefits etc. will all make you feel worse. 

You need to hope for the best and plan for the worst. I suffer from back pain, but have the luxury of generally working from home which allows me to be more flexible in how I work. Excessive driving, sitting at meetings and in front of a keyboard cause me crippling lower back pain and headaches. I manage them by remembering to move about and doing other things! I am not suggesting that is the answer to your problems, but it is an example of a coping strategy. 

What I am suggesting is that you deal with your problems by taking charge of them, which will make you feel better by not feeling a helpless victim of them. 

Health - as already said contact the consultant for feedback, explain your circumstances. Most people become doctors and nurses because they care, give them an opportunity to show it. Colonoscopy results do not take 4-6 weeks, my advice is too late for you to ask at the time, but make contact direct contact again. 

You could see another GP and they can refer you to a pain management clinic which isn't popular because they tend to prescribe expensive drugs. CBT was mentioned, this is very effective and doesn't stress your liver like popping pills does. Half of patients with physical symptoms treated by GPs and hospitals when their symptoms are due to depression and anxiety, these patients do not improve until they receive access to therapy. I am not suggesting that your health problems are imaginary, but could be being made worse by your worries. 

Work - for the interview make it clear that you want to return to work, explain positively why physically you may not be up to your role i.e. humping heavy monitors with your back problem. If possible have a constructive alternative suggestion prepared, don't have an interview that ends with everyone concluding that you cannot do your job. As an employer they have a limited duty of care to bring you back, preferably into your current role or a suitable and useful alternative. 

It is better to go back to work even if you cannot stick it long term, it is a position of strength that ticks off some more mortgage payments and buys you time to seek alternatives. 

Striking out on your own is frightening, but not if you have saleable skills that are in demand, better still if you have tested the water with potential clients. Remember the world is full of successful people who have failed many times. 

Benefits - No! Home of last resort. 


Giving advice is easy, properly understanding someone else's problems is much harder. 

Keep your chin up, plan ahead with your better-half, work out what you want and go for it. As Churchill said, "the hour is always darkest before the dawn".


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## Oryxdesign (26 Mar 2010)

I think that is good advice from Tenon. Even if you are well it's hard to get back into work and the longer you are off the harder it gets.

I think that selling up your tools would be a mistake, even if you don't use them they are still there. The ownership is free it's buying more that costs.

Anyway good luck Tom, there's plenty of folks on here behind you.

Simon


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## big soft moose (26 Mar 2010)

Oryxdesign":d6wa06el said:


> I think that selling up your tools would be a mistake, even if you don't use them they are still there. The ownership is free it's buying more that costs.



true - but on the otherhand the money tied up in the machines is money not paid off toms mortgage.

I'm not saying he should give up enitirely but suggesting a hard eyed apraisal of what he wants and is going to be able to do versus the machinery he needs to do it

for example the BRM is a quality bit of kit - but is toms back really going to be up to hoisting huge lumps of wood on and off it, and doing deep hole boring etc ? If not it would make sense to realise the £2.5k+ and then spend maybe 500 on a lathe which actually suits his capabilities.

If you extend that logic to all the other machinery and tools he has then you could pretty soon realise a decent lump sum which would then reduce his mortgage payments (either by paying off a lump or by offsetting against the interest) which could be make or break if he has to reduce his working hours.

One other thing thats just occured to me tom , your car - I might be wrong but you are quite a tall lad and its possible that cramming yourself into a smartcar on a regular basis isnt helping your back ( I had one as a courtesy car for a week and by the 3rd day i had lumbar aches)


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## Mrs Oryx (26 Mar 2010)

Tom, a cold hard look at the numbers may help you take control of some of this but I really don't think that selling everything off is the whole answer and is certainly very negative in terms of mental impact on you.

Selling off things you are very unlikely to use ever again makes sense to realise some cash and reduce any interest on debt you may currently be paying. However, without knowing things like your level of personal debt and the terms of those facilities (credit cards, personal loans etc) it is hard to see whether releasing some capital in the shape of selling tools is really a good strategy. It certainly isn't a long term one to meet repayments or current living expenses - even with your tool buying habit it isn't going to be an ongoing income stream for very long.

If you like you could pop down and help me with my website and I'll set up some spreadsheets with you to help you model a few scenarios - downsizing, full recovery in 6 months, ill-health and job loss, reduced hours and pro-rata pay etc. It might help you understand all that mortgage stuff you hate and whether moving house is really a good idea.


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## Digit (26 Mar 2010)

As a someone who suffered appendicitis for years and am currently battling another bout of IBS I would extend every sympathy to you Tom, but I know that sympathy is a lousy pain killer! 
Perhaps the future may improve your condition, I sincerely hope so. 

Roy.


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## wizer (26 Mar 2010)

Hi guys

Just back from the 'inspection'. Good news and bad news. The 'good' news is that it's not (well 99% not) Crohns. That's no big surprise to me actually, I never thought it was. But the bad news is that it's inconclusive. My consultant actually did the procedure and was able to talk to me after. He said he found nothing obviously out of the ordinary. He was quite puzzled when I told him how disappointed I was. He thought I'd be over the moon that it wasn't Crohns, UC or Diverticulitis. Don't get me wrong, that's great, but puts me right back in the same position of not knowing why I feel like sh*t and have varying levels of pain in that area, every day. He didn't want to speculate and has reffered me to a Gastro doc. Round and round we go.... He did take biopsies, but his opinion was that they wouldn't give any clues either. I'll get those results in a week, good times. I won't see the new consultant\doc for 6-8 weeks, bad times.

So this gives me no information to make any decisions. I was hoping to have something to tell my employers. Not to mention the many people who are 'concerned' for me. 

WRT to selling the workshop stuff. It won't be till I'm _absolutely _sure I will have to downsize drastically or if benefits\low pay employment becomes the only option. Even then, I'll downsize only enough to fit the new lifestyle and not absolutely everything.

The only thing that will make me get rid of the lot is if I thought it would pay for a firm solution to one or both of my problems.

WRT to my finances. Yes we're having some troubles. This is a combination of what we are faced with, the loss of overtime, plus we really have never recovered from my wife going part time when my daughter was born. There are credit card debts but that's it. No loans, HP, etc, etc So it's not as bad as maybe I suggested. But it will be if I end up loosing my job or have a period of not being paid. The downsizing idea is my wifes and she's hell bent on it, but I don't think she's thought it through and I've already explained my hiding tactics. It's time we really looked at it. I don't think we're going to save much off the mortgage if we downsize. We're paying IO atm, so the repayment might even increase a bit. But we will save on utilities, council tax and depending on where we end up, we might reduce travel costs to work.

WRT to my car. People never believe me, but the Smart Car is actually much better for me than the other cars I've driven. The ride height is a bit higher than a 206, Astra and Focus. The seat arrangement give me more leg depth (not room or length). So it's a bit sitting in a padded dining chair. This is better for me. I have more head room than the cars I just listed, but I do still have to stoop in certain circumstances. But most importantly. It's £35 a year to tax and my general petrol costs each month are just £30 My insurance was £28 a month for 10months. So it's ideal for me really. Plus _I really love it_. 

That's it for now. Still feeling somewhat uncomfortable.

Sorry I haven't replied to some people directly, I'll continue tomorrow.


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## Digit (26 Mar 2010)

Have they discounted IBS Tom? My quack tells me that despite it not being serious, ie, life threatening, it can hospitalise you. 

Roy.


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## big soft moose (26 Mar 2010)

wizer":27ta341j said:


> The downsizing idea is my wifes and she's hell bent on it, but I don't think she's thought it through and I've already explained my hiding tactics. It's time we really looked at it. .



the bottom line on that one is like matt said , if you arent going to save on the mortgage then its strictly debateable whether you will save more by moving than moving will cost you.

I'd suggest you take mrs oryx up on her kind offer of doing some projections - if you have something tangible to show the missus it might help her see if its not a goer .


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## big soft moose (26 Mar 2010)

wizer":2dushthe said:


> WRT to my car. People never believe me, but the Smart Car is actually much better for me than the other cars I've driven. The ride height is a bit higher than a 206, Astra and Focus. The seat arrangement give me more leg depth (not room or length). So it's a bit sitting in a padded dining chair. This is better for me. I have more head room than the cars I just listed, but I do still have to stoop in certain circumstances. But most importantly. It's £35 a year to tax and my general petrol costs each month are just £30 My insurance was £28 a month for 10months. So it's ideal for me really. Plus _I really love it_.
> .



fair enough - you know what works best for you i was just putting it out there.

( I guess that you might be a bit shorter and lighter than me I'm 6'4" and 13 stone and i found the smart cripplingly uncomfortable and hated it so much i didnt drive it after day three except to take it back when my car was ready - ive told them that if they want my custom in the future i want a bigger courtesy car next time)


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## Digit (26 Mar 2010)

Hell Moose, had you offended them at some time? I wouldn't have thought you could have climbed into one of those cars, pulling it on like a pair of trousers maybe. :lol: 

Roy.


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## big soft moose (26 Mar 2010)

Digit":35g6v4z7 said:


> Hell Moose, had you offended them at some time? I wouldn't have thought you could have climbed into one of those cars, pulling it on like a pair of trousers maybe. :lol:
> 
> Roy.



no - apparently thats what they have as courtsey cars - odd as they are a ford main dealer - however they have promised to let me have one of their demonstrators like a fiesta or focus next time after i made my feelings about the short comings of the smart exceptionally clear to the manager. (anyway lets not hijack toms thread - appologies for the digresion)


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## wizer (26 Mar 2010)

I'm actually 6' 3" and a bit. But I stoop quite a bit so no one ever believes how tall I am.

Like I say, I really don't feel any discomfort from the smart car, the opposite in fact. I just wish it was happy to do longer miles, as I'd be able to go a bit further when needed. It's not great on the motor way. It can do 80 comfortably but you can tell it's not designed for that. In total honesty, if\when finances become more comfortable, I will definitely buy another (newer) one. No doubt. Even if I won the lotto, I'd have one for knocking about in.

The only other car that I have driven and felt comfortable in was the CRV, but that was stupidly expensive to run and got cut for economic reasons. Obviously transit vans are good too, but not feasible. Hmmm What about a Bedford Rascal?  

Roy IBS falls under the IBD umbrella and that's the sort of stuff they were looking for today. The issue is nothing to do with bowel movement, but serious pain in that area and obviously it was inflamed severely when they operated on me. I had similar problems about 4yrs ago and went through all the camera tests. For a while they thought I had Ulcerative Colitis, but in the end it just fizzled out to 'inconclusive' again. So something is very definitely wrong. But finding out exactly what is going to be tricky, I think. It seems like the problem is not straight forward and will take a lot of investigation. Which would be fine if it was all going to happen soon. But every test, appointment, etc takes a minimum of 6 weeks and 'jumping the queue' doesn't seem to exist unless you are literally dying.

Oddly I'm feeling a bit more positive despite the inconclusive verdict. I'm not sure how long that will last.


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## Tom K (26 Mar 2010)

Hi Wiz, see your at it again with the old SHBW stuff :lol: 
Don't ever sell your tools unless you cant feed the baby. 
I'm guessing you owe a considerable sum on the mortgage and your tools wouldn't even make a dent.
I wonder if some or all of your problems are due to stress. It can affect people in the strangest ways, I know you have actual pain and 
problems with your back but if you are always anticipating the next spasm
and the resulting loss of earnings lack of quality time with your family etc perhaps some of it is self perpetuating? 
I think you said before that you had tried all the ologys and ists but wonder wether a hypnotherapist could help you cope?


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## Digit (26 Mar 2010)

The waiting is hell isn't it?

Roy.


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## wizer (26 Mar 2010)

Funny enough Tom I was looking at Hypnotherapy earlier. But I'd never go in for anything like that. Things like that give me the hump  But I'm going to give the CBT thing a go again. I just have to try not to be sarcastic


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## BMac (26 Mar 2010)

Tom, me again,

The CBT is super. I went through it a couple of years after I had to stop working (I didn't know you could be depressed and not know but everyone around you did) and it turned my life around. I wouldn't leave the house because I was so ashamed that I wasn't working and found a million excuses to just hide away from my family and friends thinking I was sparing them the hassle of having to look at me.

I am not going to tell you how CBT works but I will tell you that you won't be lectured or patronised.

I'm sending you a PM on another, related, issue. 

Brendan


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## Tom K (26 Mar 2010)

wizer":3fxqy8o2 said:


> I just have to try not to be sarcastic



Ha! I find that impossible :lol: I know what you mean about therapy beardy weirdys and all that but I was a smoker for 28 years 
My daughter nagged me into hypnotherapy, she booked it and payed
for it I went just to shut her up but smoked my last cigarette two days later. That was 7 years ago and I still don't know if it was the therapist or
being fed up with the nagging but something worked :lol: I have also experienced a couple of episodes in my life where I didn't appreciate how badly I was being affected by stress until the situation was resolved and the weght was taken from my shoulders.


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## MIGNAL (26 Mar 2010)

IBS can be extremely painful. I suffered from it for 6 months. I'm of the opinion that stress/anxiety prompted the episode. I'm certainly not trying to diagnose Tom's problem but
I guess it's just another of the possibilities.


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## wizer (26 Mar 2010)

I know that I will find it really hard to make the CBT work for me. I just find it all a bit patronising. I don't worry or fret about things that aren't real. Everything that 'gets me down' is actually happening. So, we'll see. I'm actually eager to try. I have had enough of sitting in this bed and I want all this sorted. I don't want to loose anything that I've worked for up until now. Since I was 16 I have been in constant full time work. I bought my first house when I was 20 and I just can't bare to loose everything I have without a F****** good fight. Hopefully with the stress managed and some more exercise, things should start to sort themselves out. If work can help me ease back in then I should at least give it a try. I won't get my OT back anytime soon, but at least I won't loose any money.

Thanks again everyone. It's helped to vent, vent in a way that's not to easy IRL.


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## big soft moose (26 Mar 2010)

wizer":3htlwwab said:


> I know that I will find it really hard to make the CBT work for me. I just find it all a bit patronising. I don't worry or fret about things that aren't real. Everything that 'gets me down' is actually happening. So, we'll see. I'm actually eager to try. I have had enough of sitting in this bed and I want all this sorted. I don't want to loose anything that I've worked for up until now. Since I was 16 I have been in constant full time work. I bought my first house when I was 20 and I just can't bare to loose everything I have without a F****** good fight. Hopefully with the stress managed and some more exercise, things should start to sort themselves out. If work can help me ease back in then I should at least give it a try. I won't get my OT back anytime soon, but at least I won't loose any money.
> 
> Thanks again everyone. It's helped to vent, vent in a way that's not to easy IRL.



My sister who has another inconclusive condition (its alledgely M.E but she has neurological symptoms not consistent with that diagnosis like occasional leg paralysis - they've tested for M.S, MND and alsorts of other such - but i digress) has had CBT, and while id didnt cure her , and i doubt it wil cure you , it did help her learn to cope

one thing i would stress is its not about them telling you that the things that get you down arent real - its about learning to cope with the things that are real so that they dont get you down (as much)

stress and the resultant depresion can manifest as real physical symptoms or worsen symptoms you alrady have - that worsening causes you more stress and so on arround. CBT is about breaking that vicious circle and helping you take your life back.

like i said it wont cure the underlying conditions so dont go into it hoping that it will , but it ought to make the physical symptoms more bearable and stop them from taking over your life, as well as dealing with the secondary issues like stress etc.


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## Lons (27 Mar 2010)

Wiser:

Christ - a* SMART *car? :? 

Dunno how anybody can feel comfortable in that. Had one for a week in Italy as was all I could get and it's the worst car I've ever used.. I wouldn't accept one as a gift :roll: 

You can get some very comfortable and powerful diesels with £35 RFL and 50-60 mpg
I've got a bmw320d at £120 RFL (I think) and get 45-55mpg. Fast and very comfortable and cheaper to run than my wifes' mini cooper so plenty of choice out there when you come to change.

Downsizing:-  ...... I lost a well paid job 15 years ago when the company I managed went bust and closed 10 branches. I was out of work for almost a year and would never want to go through the mental anguish again.
I received no benefits as my wife was working but we suffered badly financially and I was under great pressure from everyone to sell the house.
I refused as to me it didn't make sense to throw thousands away in fees and taxes and I was confident that eventually I could turn things around.
With hindsight it was 100% right in my case.
I have a sister who has done it 3 times now, she's still in hock and has lost almost all of her capital - stupid woman! :? 


On your diagnosis:-  ..... if the doc said to me "you haven't got Chrons and I can't find anything abnormal" I'd be singing all the way home and looking forward to tomorrow!

Doesn't help you I know but the more I read, the more convinced I am that you've got to get your head sorted before you can mend your physical symptoms.

I've got a close family friend who is the most positive person I have ever known and has the least reason to be so.

She was diagnosed with breast cancer 12 years ago which spread to her bones. She lost her only daughter 10 years ago in an horific motorcycle accident. She has had steel plates inserted to enable her to walk, has almost constant chemo and permanent pain. She knows she's dying but has survived the last 5 or 6 years on willpower. - Never once have I heard her moan about her misfortune!

Amazing what the power of the mind can do and I believe it can just as easily work against you if you allow it to.

_Just my pennerth Wiser and not meant to be destructive, I really feel for you and hope you get it sorted soon._
Bob


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## Digit (27 Mar 2010)

> Never once have I heard her moan about her misfortune!



A few days after I was diagnosed with cancer I walked into a meeting of a local support group having said to my wife, 'if it's bunch of people bemoaning their hard luck I'm off!'
_Never _ have I been so wrong Bob, like your friend they were, and remain, an inspiration!

Roy.


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## Lons (27 Mar 2010)

Digit":1rbsxlyu said:


> > Never once have I heard her moan about her misfortune!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry to here of your cancer Roy. I think everybody dreads to think they will here the "C" word. 

My friend rang me last week and in passing, laughingly said she had burned her feet and had to walk everywhere on her heels for 3 days. When I said "how the hell did you do that woman" she dismissed it and told me she had double dosed her pills which caused it! Then promptly asked about my health etc..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :duno: 

I'm a classic grumpy old man at times and I moan about all sorts but I think I'm positive about the important things in life and I never cease to be amazed by the attitudes of people who should have plenty to moan about.

My attitude to life changed 13 years ago when my daughter had a very serious car accident half a mile from home. She survived bad injuries and has just qualified with distinction and started as a staff nurse on A&E.

Brings home the important things in life.

Best wishes

Bob


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## Digit (27 Mar 2010)

> Brings home the important things in life.



Indeed!

Roy.


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## woodbloke (27 Mar 2010)

Mrs Oryx":1e5a0grf said:


> If you like you could pop down and help me with my website and I'll set up some spreadsheets with you to help you model a few scenarios - downsizing, full recovery in 6 months, ill-health and job loss, reduced hours and pro-rata pay etc. It might help you understand all that mortgage stuff you hate and whether moving house is really a good idea.



Tom - for my money, this is a fantastic offer from Mrs O that you can't afford to turn down - Rob


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## Mike.C (27 Mar 2010)

Lons wrote;



> Sorry to here of your cancer Roy. I think everybody dreads to think they will here the "C" word.



I agree, but it is the way that some people treat you that makes things worse. There seems to be four camps (1) Are the people who stop coming around because they think that they are going to catch it off you. (2) Are those that want to know when the funeral is going to be. These ones do not seem to realise that there are treatments (even though its a post code lottery, and if your area's NHS is not willing to pay for the drugs you either die or go private) and with help you can fight the illness. (3) Those who keep away because they do not know what to say. (4) Your family, real friends, and other members of the public who don't treat you as if you have the plague, and that they can touch you and your not going to break.

Tom you have been given some great advice, and those that have mentioned about selling your tools have their reasons, but IMHO I really think that you would regret it, and should only be done as a _*very*_ last resort.

Cheers

Mike


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## wizer (27 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":bxd7azfz said:


> Mrs Oryx":bxd7azfz said:
> 
> 
> > If you like you could pop down and help me with my website and I'll set up some spreadsheets with you to help you model a few scenarios - downsizing, full recovery in 6 months, ill-health and job loss, reduced hours and pro-rata pay etc. It might help you understand all that mortgage stuff you hate and whether moving house is really a good idea.
> ...



Yes, both Oryx's have been most kind. I bit her hand off :shock: :lol:


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## Digit (27 Mar 2010)

> 1) Are the people who stop coming around because they think that they are going to catch it off you. (2) Are those that want to know when the funeral is going to be. These ones do not seem to realise that there are treatments (even though its a post code lottery, and if your area's NHS is not willing to pay for the drugs you either die or go private) and with help you can fight the illness. (3) Those who keep away because they do not know what to say. (4) Your family, real friends, and other members of the public who don't treat you as if you have the plague, and that they can touch you and your not going to break.


 
And I've met them all Mike. When I was epileptic I can recall snapping at one 'friend', 'it's not contagious you know!' 
When I informed another chap that I had cancer he said, 'oh! How long have you got?' (Made my day that one!) 
The third group I can sympathise with, and the fourth group buoy you up. 

Roy.


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## woodbloke (27 Mar 2010)

wizer":1zqgameq said:


> Yes, both Oryx's have been most kind. I bit her hand off :shock: :lol:



Now that's a big mistake Tom...how can Mrs O type a spreadsheet now? :lol: - Rob


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## wizer (27 Mar 2010)

Good point  :lol:


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## Mike.C (27 Mar 2010)

Digit":2tth0uid said:


> > 1) Are the people who stop coming around because they think that they are going to catch it off you. (2) Are those that want to know when the funeral is going to be. These ones do not seem to realise that there are treatments (even though its a post code lottery, and if your area's NHS is not willing to pay for the drugs you either die or go private) and with help you can fight the illness. (3) Those who keep away because they do not know what to say. (4) Your family, real friends, and other members of the public who don't treat you as if you have the plague, and that they can touch you and your not going to break.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep me too Roy. The worse point in all the relapses I have had was when I was in a hairdressers, and due to the treatment my hair was falling out, and so I asked them to cut it really short. Just after the hairdresser had started, the manageress called her over and whispered "_Hurry up and get him out of here, he looks really ill and thats bad for business_"
What she did not know was that my wife was standing over by the coffee pot and heard every word she said. She did not want to embarrass me so she grabbed her by the arm and walked her into the backroom and gave her what for.
Alright I looked like death warmed up, but how anyone would relate that to the hairdressers I do not know.

Like you I feel sorry for those that do not know what to say

Cheers

Mike


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## Digit (27 Mar 2010)

I was lucky Mike, I missed the hair loss bit, thank God. Lord knows what I'd look like bald!

Roy.


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## Mike.C (27 Mar 2010)

Digit":34ehep9b said:


> I was lucky Mike, I missed the hair loss bit, thank God. Lord knows what I'd look like bald!
> 
> Roy.



That's good. Although its very thin some of mine has grown back, and as long as I keep it short it is not too bad.

Anyway sorry for stealing your thread Tom, I will let you get back on topic  

Cheers

Mike


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## Lons (27 Mar 2010)

Digit":2zkabwrs said:


> I was lucky Mike, I missed the hair loss bit, thank God. Lord knows what I'd look like bald!
> 
> Roy.



My friend lost her hair and promptly bought the most outrageous bright red wig which was virtually a statement to everyone "look at me, I've got cancer and I'm still here".

She thought it was a hoot and so do I.. :lol:

The guy I feel for is her father who is 94, a war hero pilot and has seen his wife and granddaughter die and now watching his beloved daughter slowly getting worse - how bad is that?


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## Digit (27 Mar 2010)

Bloody awful! No parent should out live their children.

Roy.


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