# 'Sticking' hand saw



## Presh (27 Apr 2015)

Hi All,
How can I correct a 'sticking' dovetail saw? I've recently been passed a good quality old (1940's?) Spear and Jackson dovetail saw from within the family and really want to use it. I've spent some time polishing up the blade etc and it is now pretty clean, remains sharp but sticks in the cut. It has a really solid back to it but the bade is not precisely straight when sighted parallel to the teeth and shows a slight wander from absolute true. Given that this has a really fine kerf will this be sufficient for the saw to stick. Can I oil / was the blade? Is there an enexpensive way to straighten the blade if this is the issue? Thanks


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## Kalimna (27 Apr 2015)

People with a lot more knowledge/experience than I will undoubtedly be along shortly, but have you tried a swish of candle wax on the saw plate?

Adam


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## Presh (27 Apr 2015)

First thing I tried Adam - and it works perfectly until the wax wears off! This wore off after 2-3 cuts so would be a real pain if this were the only way I could get it to work correctly.


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## Kalimna (27 Apr 2015)

Fair enough. 

Adam


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## dzj (27 Apr 2015)

Paul Sellers has a video on straightening saws on Youtube. 
Maybe it helps.


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## AndyT (27 Apr 2015)

While we are still waiting for the real experts, here's my two pennorth.

If the saw always stops at the same point along the cut, there could be an odd tooth that is set wider than the others and so is jamming in the cut. You could run an oil stone along the side once or twice to bring the teeth in line, or try the vice jaws & paper method discussed here recently.

While you don't want loads of set on a dovetail saw, you do need some. I think the amount you need depends on the scale of the work. If you are making tiny, shallow cuts in dry 5mm oak for drawer sides, you can get away with less set than if you were working in 25mm thick pine; so depending on the job in hand, more set might help; it sounds as if you might not have enough.

It also makes a big difference if the saw is filed rip. This is much easier to do, and dovetail cuts are rip cuts, so it's right any way. (I find that a fine rip cut saw is also great for cross grain cuts eg on tenon shoulders.)

And I agree with the use of a bit of candle from time to time.


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## Racers (27 Apr 2015)

Sounds like you haven't got enough set on the teeth did you polish all the way to the teeth?

You will probably need to sharpen and set the teeth.

Have a look on you tube for saw sharpening videos, or take it to your local saw sharpening place.

Pete


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## bugbear (27 Apr 2015)

Sticking, no matter the cause, will be helped by lubrication, more set, or both. But these are just sticking plasters.

The question is what's causing the sticking?

Here are some possibilties;

* too narrow set (rare but possible; it's possible for a DT saw to work OK with no applied set, just the burr from sharpening)
* kinked blade (plausible, but unlikely to cause sticking in thin workpieces)
* curved cut (very possible, often caused by uneven set)

BugBear


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## CStanford (27 Apr 2015)

Pete's right: If you 'polished up the blade' at the toothline you've likely removed most if not all the set of the teeth. You should send the saw out for sharpening and resetting. If you've not done either before, a dovetail saw is not the place to start.


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## MIGNAL (27 Apr 2015)

The chances are that you need a touch more set on the teeth. A slight wander from absolute true (which suggests it's tiny) is unlikely to cause it to jam.


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## lurcher (27 Apr 2015)

put a line on both sides of the teeth with a permanent marker then make some cuts this will show ware the ware is in the saw if it is uneven take all the set off resharpen it set it top it the resharpen it 
how many tpi does the saw have if it has more than 10 tpi then filed rip from 1 side is ok any less and i would file from both sides of the plate


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## Cheshirechappie (27 Apr 2015)

First thing is to try and straighten up the blade, which might be quite easy, if you're lucky. First, check that the back is straight, or that the blade is straight where it enters the back. Bent backs are rare, but almost impossible to straighten if they are bent; hopefully yours will be straight. Then have a read of this - http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/retension-a-backsaw.php - and see if a gentle tap or two on the top of the spine will reseat the blade and straighten it up. Don't take the handle off - not necessary.

If the saw has been around for a while, it's almost certain to benefit from a bit of dentistry, though as suggested above, if you haven't sharpened a saw before, it would be well worth while getting a bit of practice in on a saw with bigger teeth, and preferably rip pattern to start with, before tackling a dovetail saw. It's a worthwhile skill to have, though - a sharp, well-set saw is a joy to use.

I'm almost sure those will cure any sticking problems, and will improve the saw's performance as well. Polishing up the blade is worth it to get smoothness, which is far more useful than shinyness, and a smear of wax will add more slickness too.


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## mouppe (27 Apr 2015)

From your description, it's sounds like it's almost certainly the set. It's a ten-minute job to set a dovetail saw, take some test cuts and adjust it if the saw is wandering to one side when cutting. I find I need to set my saws every half a dozen sharpenings or so. If the saw is wandering, you can take a fine stone or diamond plate, and brush it along the side to which the saw is wandering. Brush it once, take a test cut, and so on until it cuts straight. 

If you search on youtube for "Sharpening a rip-cut saw" or "sharpening a dovetail saw" you'll find lots of helpful videos.

Just curious Cheshire Chappie, how to you sharpen your dovetail and rip-cut saws differently?


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## Presh (27 Apr 2015)

Thanks to you all for your thoughts and responses. This is really very useful and much appreciated. To answer some of the points raised, the saw has a perfectly straight back, has 16PPI and cuts straight though it starts to stick randomly at +10mm into the cut. I've no experience of a decent quality new dovetail saw so have nothing to benchmark how this one works but on reflection and reading all your comments (thanks!) it probably does need a sharpen and re-set. It's so fine that I won't attempt this myself - bound to make a hash of it. I haven't polished the set of the saw. I was very careful not to get close to the teeth and did it by hand anyway. Anyone recommend someone who you would let loose to sharpen / set a good quality saw in North Yorkshire?


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## matthewwh (27 Apr 2015)

Now that all depends on your willpower...

Fancy a trip to the seaside?

skeltonsaws.co.uk


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## JanetsBears (27 Apr 2015)

matthewwh":xo18wary said:


> Now that all depends on your willpower...
> 
> Fancy a trip to the seaside?
> 
> skeltonsaws.co.uk


I quite fancy 'The Skelton Special 3 Saw Set' - looks like an ideal stocking filler for my wife to get me for Christmas at a bargain price of only £8.20 

Oh, hang on, that's an insect on my screen, not a decimal point, the real price is £820  

They do look nice though!

Chris


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## swagman (28 Apr 2015)

Is Scarborough a very expensive place to live in the U.K. #-o 

10 inch $245
12 inch $275
15 inch $350

On a lighter note, I am looking forward to viewing Shanes closed handle design on the Sash Saw. With a traditional lambs tongue, it should look a real treat in Rosewood.


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## swagman (28 Apr 2015)

_ To answer some of the points raised, the saw has a perfectly straight back, has 16PPI and cuts straight though it starts to stick randomly at +10mm into the cut._

_First thing I tried Adam - and it works perfectly until the wax wears off_

A lack of set would be the most likely diagnosis.


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## bugbear (28 Apr 2015)

Does anyone have a good/easy/cheap technique for _measuring_ the total set of a saw?

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Apr 2015)

Micrometer?


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Apr 2015)

mouppe":is7zqv6d said:


> Just curious Cheshire Chappie, how to you sharpen your dovetail and rip-cut saws differently?



Mouppe - the principle is exactly the same for a tiny dovetail saw or a big, 4 tpi or so, rip saw. It's the scale that varies! With the big ripsaw, you can see what you're doing quite easily, but with the tiny teeth of a 16 tpi dovetail saw, eyestrain can set in rather quickly. It's also depressingly easy to file just a bit too deep, and effectively file off a tooth. If you do something with big teeth, then something around 10 or 12 tpi, the confidence builds with file control, tooth shaping, depth of cut and so on. Like a lot of things practical, it's not really that hard once you've done a few, but practice makes perfect.

The usual advice is to buy a cheap, damaged or badly worn saw, and try first on that. If you make a real hash of it, just joint the toothline straight again, and have another go. The worst that can happen is that you make a scrap saw a bit scrappier!

Set is another aspect. There seems to be a fashion these days for absolutely minimal set, on the grounds that a thinner kerf makes for quicker work. That's fair enough, but I suspect that as with all fashions, some people take it rather to excess. It's probably better to have enough set and a sharp saw; a little wiggle-room in the kerf allows gentle correction of the cut's direction, but a tight kerf constrains the saw to the direction in which it started cutting. That may be OK for a really skilled worker, but until you've become very familiar with any particular saw, a wee bit of wiggle room helps with accuracy. A set that gives a kerf between 25% and 50% wider than the blade thickness is probably about right in most (dry wood) circumstances, though there's no absolute 'right answer'. The best way to ensure fast cutting is to keep the saw sharp.

Finding a sawset that works for very small teeth can be a bit of a problem, in that most seem to designed for saws of about 10 tpi and larger, and to apply quite a lot of set. That's ideal for a carpenter dealing with slightly wet softwoods, but not quite so good for the cabinetmaker working very dry hardwoods. In North America, the Stanley 42X is often recommended - I gather they're not cheap, but you only need one per lifetime. In the UK, there are a couple of options. One is a new Somax, which are available in two versions, one of which is specifically for small teeth. Another option is to buy a used Eclipse 77 and thin down the punch so that it touches only one tooth of fine saws. Finding the right anvil setting can be a tad hit-and-miss at first - another plus for the 'buy a worn out wreck' idea - but aim for a setting that bends only about a half or two-thirds of the tooth, and NOT the blade behind the gullets.

There's an excellent Youtube video entitled 'Sharpening Western Saws' which whilst long at 2 1/4 hours, demontrates the tools and techniques very well. It's well worth a perusal.

Edit to add link to video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_MF2Mnxwc


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## bugbear (28 Apr 2015)

phil.p":326wxxiy said:


> Micrometer?



A paper measuring micrometer might work, but a normal one doesn't really spread over enough teeth for me to trust it.

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/223RL

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Apr 2015)

phil.p":apr11eg8 said:


> Micrometer?



There used to be - and maybe still is - a little fitting for micrometer anvils called an 'elephant's foot'. It was a plate-shaped thing that increased the anvil's diameter from about 1/4" to about 3/4" or so. That would bridge two or three teeth on most saws.

I suppose another option would be carefully making use of the larger jaw size of a vernier calliper. That should bridge several teeth.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Apr 2015)

It seems OK. I've just tried one on an old 12tpi tenon saw that needs sharpening and got the set diminishing 3thou from the heel to the toe.


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## mouppe (28 Apr 2015)

Thanks Cheshire Chappie, I didn't realize from your original post that you were just referring to scale. I thought you had a different method for each of them and was curious. 

I sharpen them both the same way too, and I use my somax setting tool on the smallest setting for my dovetail saw. I find that even with that setting I need to remove a little of the set with a slipstone. 

Here's a quick video I made a couple of weeks ago on sharpening and setting my dovetail saw. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grCs9y807t0


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Apr 2015)

mouppe":26jcaj8s said:


> Here's a quick video I made a couple of weeks ago on sharpening and setting my dovetail saw.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grCs9y807t0



I like that, Mouppe! Simple but effective saw vice, no fancy and expensive rake angle gizmos; just a pragmatic way to get the job done with minimum fuss. 

I also like the method of checking whether the set is about right - use the saw. Binding saw, needs a bit more set. Gaping kerf, too much set. Pulls to one side, stone a bit of set off that side. Simple and easy.

Still better for a first attempt at sawfiling to try something with slightly bigger teeth, though....


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