# Most durable and workable timber for making windows .



## JFC (3 Jan 2007)

What do the forum members think is the best timber for making windows ?


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## woodbloke (3 Jan 2007)

Depends on the type of property and finish needed in my view. Probably oak or iroko if hardwood windows are required and a varnished or similar type of finish is needed - Rob


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## Alf (3 Jan 2007)

Don't you think glass would let in more light...? :-k

Coat, door, byeeeeee. :wink:


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## JFC (3 Jan 2007)

Do you think european oak is better for this than american white ?


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## Shivers (3 Jan 2007)

Red cedar (north american)if you can get it.Lasts for decades,this is what shingles are made of.

shivers


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## DomValente (3 Jan 2007)

Made 6 windows for a client 7 years ago he's just asked me to make three more so had reason to check old ones,if anything they look better now than before.
European Oak,just make sure you treat them properly.

Good luck.


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## Jake (3 Jan 2007)

This question came out of a chat I was having with JFC by PM. 

WR Cedar is durable for a softwood (if you can find first growth timber, apparently that is much better), but it moves a lot which isn't a desirable quality for exterior joinery. 

My only experience with oak outdoors is with firewood, where it is one of the quicker trees to go crumbly and rot despite its reputation for durability. English ships were notorious for rotting because they were made of the wrong timber... It also moves quite a lot. But it has a good reputation, and there are some interesting ideas around about how to preserve it. No idea about AWO.

I'll nominate Robinia (Black Locust), FWIW, based on lots of reading (and nothing more). Its ultra durable, good looking, very stable, non-tropical, takes a good finish apparently. The only real downside seems to be that its a small tree, so the sections are small and might need lamination. Edit: oh and availability/possibly price.


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## Jake (3 Jan 2007)

DomValente":2osccr35 said:


> Made 6 windows for a client 7 years ago he's just asked me to make three more so had reason to check old ones,if anything they look better now than before.
> European Oak,just make sure you treat them properly.
> 
> Good luck.



Even a (modern) softwood window should last 10-20 years if reasonably maintained. A hardwood window should be shooting for 30-40 years, absolute minimum, so 7 years is a bit early to judge isn't it?


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## ProShop (3 Jan 2007)

I've Lost count of the windows I've made but here's my choices. Not in any particular order.

Western Red Cedar, makes very durable windows & outdoor items

Douglas Fir, very straight grained, excellent for doors as well.

Hemlock, another good one, and for doors as well.

These will easily last as long as Oak if treated correctly at a lower price.

imho I would forget hardwoods and as for Varnish................. :roll:


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## DomValente (3 Jan 2007)

Agreed, Oak may not be the cheapest but it had to match the other windows on the house and it does look good.


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## Anonymous (3 Jan 2007)

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## JFC (3 Jan 2007)

Interesting most timbers mentioned are softwood . Any reasons for this ?


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## Shivers (3 Jan 2007)

They have natural oils/resins which makes them more weatherproof,hardwoods dont take direct sunlight so well either.


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## Jake (3 Jan 2007)

Shivers":18b2r6wh said:


> They have natural oils/resins which makes them more weatherproof,



That can't be the whole story, as none of them are in the highest bracket of durability. Larch is about the best of them (with cedar) from that point of view, but they are only moderately durable really. And both are comparatively very unstable, which isn't a good thing, especially in modern joinery with its narrow tolerances to ensure air tightness.



> hardwoods dont take direct sunlight so well either.



I didn't know that. 
Any softwood window is going to be painted, except maybe cedar. So maybe it is really that it doesn't matter if it is going to be covered up in a UV and waterproof opaque coating?


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## MooreToolsPlease (3 Jan 2007)

how does Sapele rate as a suitable timber for windows?


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## Shivers (3 Jan 2007)

I think with hard woods such as oak its the open grain structure that prevents durability,& holds moisture longer--therefore speeding up deterioration,whereas softwoods have resin in the grain/helping against moisture ,many of the indonesian/hardwoods also have this property--so are more suitable for exterior joinery,once oak starts to crack--it's all over with rapid deterioration occuring.

I've replaced large carraige house doors that were a hundred yrs old & made from cedar,the only reason being -that the joints had failed,but the wood was still in good shape.

regards shivers.


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## mel (3 Jan 2007)

think of the rainforest jason :shock: :shock: 

upvc 

you know it makes sense 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Anonymous (3 Jan 2007)

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## JFC (3 Jan 2007)

Now that makes sense Mr G . But would you say iroko or Teak are better if the customer is willing to pay the extra money ?
All from a sustainable source of course :wink:


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## mel (3 Jan 2007)

jason 
try using hemlock and a couple of coats of sadolin 
or even meranty {typo} 
from a sustainable source of course 

tree hugger 
mel


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## mel (3 Jan 2007)

jason 
try using hemlock and a couple of coats of sadolin 
or even meranty {typo} 
from a sustainable source of course 

tree hugger 
mel


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## Jake (3 Jan 2007)

This guy has an interesting take on oak durability

http://www.biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk/intro.htm


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## JFC (3 Jan 2007)

Also an interesting intake on houses , most if not every house with a pitched roof has a soffit and facia . :-k


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## mel (4 Jan 2007)

jason 
he also has an interesting view on the use of linseed oil to protect the outside joinery 
i might treat the missus to a weekend camping in the "yurt" :roll: :roll: 
hes only about 40 mins away


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## Scrit (4 Jan 2007)

I've noticed that the conservation people seem to like linseed oil paints a lot. I've been looking around for suitable "donor designs" for doors to replace the 'orrible PVCu rubbish that our house has and the interesting thing is that the few late Victorian pattern doors (all pine up here) which have survived intact (i.e. original raised panels, bolection mouldings, etc) have seemingly either been neglected since the year dot and not seen a lick of paint in 30 or so years (from the look of them), or assiduously maintained by people who must repaint their doors every couple of years. There's just nothing in between. Sash windows seem to fare less well, however, and I'm struggling to find a local house with anything like original pattern windows in more or less original state to copy the design from.

Scrit


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## MIGNAL (4 Jan 2007)

Actually that chap may have a very valid point. Back in the eighties I worked for a small firm who used to replace doors/windows and I was often surprised just how well windows that were near on 100 years old had survived. Some of those windows had clearly not seen fresh paint in 50 years.


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## ProShop (4 Jan 2007)

Theres a wood yard & joinery shop near me, and the large timber building is just come up to 80 yrs old. It still has 95% of the original cladding in place, it's never been treated as far as we know.


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## Scott (4 Jan 2007)

FelderMan":1yaxin09 said:


> Theres a wood yard & joinery shop near me, and the large timber building is just come up to 80 yrs old. It still has 95% of the original cladding in place, it's never been treated as far as we know.



Do you know what timber it is John?


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## Anonymous (4 Jan 2007)

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## Anonymous (4 Jan 2007)

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## John McM (4 Jan 2007)

Jake":jpj4pjsi said:


> This guy has an interesting take on oak durability
> 
> http://www.biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk/intro.htm


 

I've emailed this chap in the hope that he will join in the discussion. I am genuinely interested in making my own cottage windows and am undecided on the choice of wood and finish. I still fancy oak and oil but welcome all opinions. Whatever I do it's got to be better and cheaper than that plastic rubbish. 

Cheers 
John


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## Shultzy (4 Jan 2007)

My house was built in 1968, and we moved into it in 1972. Apart from replacing an opening light soon after we moved in all the windows are fine. I don't know what they are made of but I paint them every 3-4 years. Even the windows bought from Magnet in 1976 for the extension are all fine.


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## Steve Maskery (4 Jan 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":7eeycrof said:


> Will post up my generic Victorian sash-window design drawing when I've got a mo
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



I, for one, would be very interested in that. I know very little about architectural joinery, I'm more of a furniture guy, but I have to learn fast - SWMBO wants an extension - we have to do _something_ with our 20-year-old flat roof, and the most sensible thing is to extend upstairs to the same position and put on a proper pitched roof. Architect arrives Monday!

I've helped to make a set of 23 replacement casements this past year, but I think I've only ever made one window frame from scratch in my entire life. As I recall, it almost fitted.


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## SlimShavings (4 Jan 2007)

Hers's my "merican pennies worth

Red Oak is not good for windows
White Oak holds up quite well

If you cut off a short peice of red aok you can blow through it
if you cut off a short peice of white oak you can't blow through it.

in the link to oak windows the small tree is white oak. the leaves are rounded. (Maybe I should check to be sure  ) red oak has pointy leaves I believe

Now I don't know about eurpoean oak

Most wood windows here are white pine and yellow pine but they are treated to resist rot.


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## Anonymous (6 Jan 2007)

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## SlimShavings (6 Jan 2007)

*
Just like to say for me that your drawing is very nicely done and understandable. Not always the case*





Mr_Grimsdale":f5sbv01b said:


> Steve Maskery":f5sbv01b said:
> 
> 
> > Mr_Grimsdale":f5sbv01b said:
> ...


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## Pekka Huhta (6 Jan 2007)

Biff Vernon mentioned slow-growth pine several times on his pages and that's what windows really should be made from. It's just about as scarce thse days as Honduras mahogany (or whatever of the nearly killed species), but it is available. And when it's the proper quality, it's good. Real good. 

A good example of it was when I cut some reclaimed wood for my boat's repairs. The wood was so pitchy that the whole workshop smelled like pine turpentine factory and you could actually make "snowballs" from the sawdust:







My house was built 1919 and the builders have recycled even older windows to the house when they built it. You can tell by the "useless" small cutouts for hinges and other hardware on places where they are not needed. And the fact that the glass is old blown glass which looks like the glassblower had a bad hiccup  

So the windows are 100+ years old. On the south wall I had to replace some wood on the lower part of the windows, but otherwise it was just up to taking off the putty, removing glass, planing the grey wood off, building a few parts to replace rotten pieces, good soak in linseed, re-glazing and linseed oil paint. Basically the upper parts of the windows were just as good as when they were built, and south wall was the only one requiring any woodwork. Although there was some wood that was a bit worse than perfect, I'd say the windows should have at least 30-40 years in front of them - before the next big haulout.... :wink: 

But all in all, Biff's way of making hte windows makes perfect sense to me, it's just the way they have been built and should be built. A few of my windows on the roof were too sour to be restored. As they were originally badly built, I got a friend to build me new ones. She (yes, she) built them just as they should be built, from good quality pine, mortise and tenon joints, secured with wooden pegs and all the works. They look just like they should. 

By the way, for some reason most of the carpenters around here building traditional windows the right way are women. Don't know why, but it has been so for at least 10+ years. 1970-90's were really dark ages anyway what comes to building traditional windows, but there has been surprisingly few men starting window business after that. And there are several hundred people building (or restoring) those windows these days in the country.

Pekka


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