# Who has taken them!



## Spectric (30 Sep 2021)

Everytime the news comes on all I seem to hear is that we are short of 100,000 lorry drivers, how can you lose so many that quickly. Did they all retire at once, abducted by aliens, laid up with long covid or what?

If it had been a slow process of loss then surely alarm bells would have been ringing at say 20,000 short and by 50,000 it would have been a national issue so either they have all vanished at once for some reason or we have a country that is out of control and in freefall, who waits until 100,000 short before raising the issue and Brexit cannot be held accountable for this one unless they were all French in disguise!


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## Sandyn (30 Sep 2021)

Fake news perhaps? It would only take a very small number of the correct HGV drivers to cause a problem with fuel delivery, then the media get involved and Jeremy Vine and panic buying starts making the problem look much worse than it might have been.


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## Richard_C (30 Sep 2021)

There's a BBC radio programme called "More or Less" which delves into numbers in the news. You can get it on BBC Sounds. There are 2 versions, a 9 minute one on World Service and a c. 30 minute weekly one on Radio 4. Very neutral politically, properly researched.

You need the episode broadcast on 1 September 2021. About 11 minutes in if you don't want the whole programme. And no, 100,000 isn't a total surprise (spoiler alert) nor might it be 100,000, but there is a real and significant shortage.


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## jcassidy (30 Sep 2021)

Not fake news as such, just lazy journalism reaching for a good headline. 

Anyway, my money is on the aliens abducting them.


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## julianf (30 Sep 2021)

Spectric said:


> Everytime the news comes on all I seem to hear is that we are short of 100,000 lorry drivers, how can you lose so many that quickly. Did they all retire at once, abducted by aliens, laid up with long covid or what?
> 
> If it had been a slow process of loss then surely alarm bells would have been ringing at say 20,000 short and by 50,000 it would have been a national issue so either they have all vanished at once for some reason or we have a country that is out of control and in freefall, who waits until 100,000 short before raising the issue and Brexit cannot be held accountable for this one unless they were all French in disguise!



You realise that many EU drivers were no longer welcome to operate in the UK when "freedom of movement" ended?

Hence the issuing of the temporary visas to band-aid the issue.

I thought this was common knowledge, or am i miss understanding your question?


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## Spectric (30 Sep 2021)

Are you saying that we employed 100,000 foreign lorry drivers and then just kicked them out, that is again just showing we are without planing or leadership.


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## MikeK (30 Sep 2021)

This is a gentle reminder...if this thread becomes a political or BREXIT discussion, it will be closed without notice. Normally, such threads would be moved to the Off-Topic II forum, but only one participant in this thread has requested access for that forum.


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## flying haggis (30 Sep 2021)

This whole "shortage " fiasco is down to Rod McKensie from the RHA overhearing a BP person talking about a few filling stations not getting deliveries as expected. Rod who is ex BBC then phones up his mates a t the BBC and starts the whole panic buying thing off with lies about there not being enough tanker drivers. The BBc then run with the story and as usual they will never let the real facts get in the way of a good story especially if they can spin it to be somehow the fault of brexit. As there were enough tanker drivers two weeks ago what has changed? Prople panic buying is what has changed. When garages sell in a day what they normally sell in a month, how can the supply chain keep up? it cant because they expect to deliver on a regular basis .

If the companies that Rod McKenzie claine "to represent" had taken on and trained in house rather than rely on cheap foreign labour we/they wouldnt be in this mess. So really all the companies who claim to have driver shortages have only themselves to blame.


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## Fitzroy (30 Sep 2021)

For me it's another example of why the lean economy is great in times of stability but is much less resistant to stress overall. Out economic model has pushed every part of the industrial chain to carry as little fat as possible. We use model based forecasts to order the next batch of X for delivery just as we need it. But any fluctuation that is out of the norm (like everyone panic buying) throws the whole thing into turmoil. This perturbation flows through the supply chain, and into other supply chains as our industries are so integrated.

To reset the system needs some time where everyone pauses all activity, which will never happen when the general public is involved. To quote MIB "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. "


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## selectortone (30 Sep 2021)

I'm really disappointed with the BBC. On Monday they were saying all day that the fuel issue was caused by 'a shortage of HGV drivers'. It wasn't. Nothing had changed from the week before when a handful of petrol stations of one supplier were having problems - that were being addressed within 24 hours. The shortage of fuel was caused by panic buying whipped up by the BBC's own incorrect and irresponsible reporting. Talk about self-fulfilling prophesies! Meanwhile ambulances are being caught in gridlocks around petrol stations, people are missing hospital appointments, nurses and care staff are worried about getting to work and all the rest. All entirely unnecessary. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.


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## AdrianUK (30 Sep 2021)

BBC were certainly more balanced than Jeremy Vine show on Channel 5, so called journalism at its worst.


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## Fitzroy (30 Sep 2021)

The more sensational, the more clicks, the more reactions (thumbs up or thumbs down it doesn't matter), the higher up the social media chart it goes, the more ad revenue it develops the bigger the bonus of the reporter. Oh we seem to have developed the perfect feedback system for biased reporting to flourish in.


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## Terry - Somerset (30 Sep 2021)

If as reported the average age of an HGV driver is 55, it seems likely the origin of the shortages goes back 15-20 years (at least).

One would expect the average age to be 40-45. Why - assuming people start driving HGVs in their eary/mid 20's and retire from the age of 60 onwards (health can be an issue)

Conclusions:

the country has failed to train enough new drivers for 15-20 years
overseas recruitment of trained drivers is cheaper and quicker than in house training
fairly full employment over the last 20 years means potential HGV drivers have had numerous alternative career paths open
poor working conditions and unattractive pay levels would act as a barrier to entry for all but the enthusiatic 
We now have a predictable merry-go-round blame game:

the consumer seeks low prices - transport is a part of the cost
retailers search out lowest cost providers
haulage companies try to reduce costs - drivers form a significant part
all blame government - an easy target, albeit mostly unjustified in a free market, although DVLA seem completely dilatory in processing licence renewals etc.
Brexit and covid may simply be the straws that broke an already failing situation. Resilience for critical services costs money (spare capacity etc) which can't then be spent on other things.


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## RobinBHM (30 Sep 2021)

Spectric said:


> Everytime the news comes on all I seem to hear is that we are short of 100,000 lorry drivers, how can you lose so many that quickly. Did they all retire at once, abducted by aliens, laid up with long covid or what?
> 
> If it had been a slow process of loss then surely alarm bells would have been ringing at say 20,000 short and by 50,000 it would have been a national issue so either they have all vanished at once for some reason or we have a country that is out of control and in freefall, who waits until 100,000 short before raising the issue and Brexit cannot be held accountable for this one unless they were all French in disguise!



alarm bells have been ringing, the Road Haulage association has been warning the govt for years.

brexit is the Thing that has tipped a systemic problem into serious chaos.


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## RobinBHM (30 Sep 2021)

Fitzroy said:


> The more sensational, the more clicks, the more reactions (thumbs up or thumbs down it doesn't matter), the higher up the social media chart it goes, the more ad revenue it develops the bigger the bonus of the reporter. Oh we seem to have developed the perfect feedback system for biased reporting to flourish in.



brexit damage is massively under reported….due to biased reporting, BBC is scared of this govt so it can’t report honestly. 

leaving the Single Market has left this country with a broken just in time integrated supply chain.


The fuel crisis is largely panic buying and shouldn’t be confused with supply chain chaos across food and other industries.


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## Trainee neophyte (30 Sep 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> brexit damage is massively under reported….due to biased reporting, BBC is scared of this govt so it can’t report honestly.
> 
> leaving the Single Market has left this country with a broken just in time integrated supply chain.
> 
> ...


Are you absolutely sure that a global pandemic with complete economic shutdown had nothing to do with it whatsoever? Not even a little bit?


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## Sandyn (30 Sep 2021)

AdrianUK said:


> Jeremy Vine show on Channel 5, so called journalism at its worst.


Ah!! the Jeremy Whine show!! To say it's Journalism at is worst is paying it a compliment!


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## doctor Bob (30 Sep 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> brexit damage is massively under reported….due to biased reporting, BBC is scared of this govt so it can’t report honestly.



It's the way you tell em  I think the BBC are farcical on all fronts, but there can be no doubt about the political leaning of the majority of news presenters.


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## paulrbarnard (30 Sep 2021)

Had to laugh at the ITV local news last night. They spent some time interviewing people and visiting petrol stations showing and stating that in general there was no shortage or crisis. A few minutes later they handed over to the National news to “hear more about the fuel crisis”


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## Richard_C (30 Sep 2021)

There is bound to be some shortage simply because of lockdown. I think I read that there are c 700,000 drivers. If 5% leave each year (retire, move on, etc) you need 35,000 to keep up. During lockdown there was no hgv driver training and no tests for many months, I think testing took a long time to come back on stream. If it works out as a 12 month hiatus and the industry can't replace leavers then there is a shortage. During lockdowns full and partial net demand probably fell: lots of activities we didn't or couldn't do including filling our cars to get to work or go on trips, restocking high street fashion stores, etc etc. although home delivery boomed. Now demand is back 'plus some'. So part of the shortage must be covid related, the rest a mix of long term decline in numbers and the unmentionable B word.

I wonder, and its a genuine wonder, what effect rules on intra-country working have had. Under EU rules, any carrier (and airlines are a good example) could trade between any 2 points - a Norbert Detressangle truck could have come to the UK with French goods, drop them in (say) Leeds, take a UK load from Leeds to Dagenham, then a return load to France. But now we are no longer in the EU I don't think they can do that middle bit - UK to UK - and maybe that affects capacity.

I do have one partial answer. One driver - one truck so it makes sense to have the truck as full as possible. I'm sure schedulers are very good at that, it's the way to make the whole system affordable and profitable. But what does full mean? Capacity is limited by weight and volume.

You can't do anything about weight - a ton of bricks is a ton of bricks - but if you look around a supermarket you realise a lot of volume is just air. Stop shipping air. Sugar Puffs minus the puff. Corn, not cornflakes. Ban pasta that has a hole - spaghetti fine, penne is space inefficient. Suck the gas out of bags of crisps. Trebor mints, no Polos. As for the ambassadors Ferrero Rocher, pass them between heavy rollers and sell them as slabs. Marsh, without the mallow. Gouda good, emmental bad (space wasting holes). Nice cuboid choc ices, no wasteful delicate cornettos. I bet we can save 40% of the lorry trips to supermarkets, and there must be other ways to save space on a whole load of goods.


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## doctor Bob (30 Sep 2021)

Media still on about fuel crisis, I'm SE and everybody at work filled up today no issues. No panic as we all had enough last week.


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## flying haggis (30 Sep 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> alarm bells have been ringing, the Road Haulage association has been warning the govt for years.



But shouldnt the RHA have been campaigning amongst members to employ and train new drivers rather than rely on "cheap" foreign labour. But of course that might have meant proper wages for the British drivers...........


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## Spectric (30 Sep 2021)

We import a lot of cheap foreign goods so cheap foreign labour is just another way to increase profit margins. The trouble is that there is a massive shortage of people needed to work in hospitality, retail and tourism up here, not a problem when they could use foreign labour whilst a lot of locals found life better being civil servants and getting every benefit possible. Now very little foreign labour, great for the landlords because they can get ten times the rent from tourist as holiday lets but every business is short staffed to the point they cannot keep going long term but again the locals don't like having to get up for work and earn less income, much better on income support but what is the local jobcentre doing about it, well basically Jack shiete which is really stupid but I suppose they cannot upset someones human rights can they.


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## baldkev (30 Sep 2021)

Theres also wages to consider..... years ago i believe hgv drivers were very well paid, whereas now it's not all that great ( certainly around here )


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## Terry - Somerset (1 Oct 2021)

Consumers make buying decisions largely (but not exclusively) on price. These pressures ripple down the supply chain to all those involved.

For ~30 years cost reduction has been largely unimpeded. Staff across EU recruited. Materials, machines, subassemblies, products etc shipped at low cost around the world. War, civil unrest, trade barriers have been largely absent.

The result - very complex supply chains and minimal stock holding to limit investment. All targetted at low costs. It has worked consistently for decades.

Unsurprisingly Covid and Brexit have exposed serious weaknesses. Brexit creates significant barriers on trade with EU despite what Boris may have intended. Covid has disrupted supply and demand patterns globally as different countries deal with the virus impacts.

Most companies (and governments) will be reassessing whether existing practices need to change radically. Resilience costs money - create spare capacity, simplify supply chains, embrace local manufacture, duplicate material sourcing etc. 

IMHO we have not seen the last of the fall out.


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## Droogs (1 Oct 2021)

Richard_C said:


> You can't do anything about weight - a ton of bricks is a ton of bricks - but if you look around a supermarket you realise a lot of volume is just air. Stop shipping air. Sugar Puffs minus the puff. Corn, not cornflakes. Ban pasta that has a hole - spaghetti fine, penne is space inefficient. Suck the gas out of bags of crisps. Trebor mints, no Polos. As for the ambassadors Ferrero Rocher, pass them between heavy rollers and sell them as slabs. Marsh, without the mallow. Gouda good, emmental bad (space wasting holes). Nice cuboid choc ices, no wasteful delicate cornettos. I bet we can save 40% of the lorry trips to supermarkets, and there must be other ways to save space on a whole load of goods.



You are aware that because of physics mumbo jumbo (atmospheric pressure), air doesn't have any effect of the weight of a packet of sugar puffs nor on the laen weight of a lorry


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## Keith 66 (1 Oct 2021)

It is a combination of many things that have coincided at once, lorry drivers used to be well paid like many other trades but wages were driven lower by cheap labour. All our money has been devalued in real terms & is continuing to do so. People get old & you have to have new young people coming in the bottom to replace those retiring or leaving any profession. It was reported yesterday that the DVLA has a waiting list of 54,000 HGV licence applications, Some of these or maybe more will be licence renewals, So if you are a driver & your licence has run out you are not going anywhere!
Working conditions are another big factor. There were two truck stops within 5 miles of where i sit, both are gone replaced by housing estates. There used to be many of these where you could pull up have a meal, toilets sleep.
Now all you see is bottles full of water alongside laybys on any main road. Is it any wonder young people dont think its a good job?


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## Adam W. (1 Oct 2021)

The universities took them to study media studies in the 90's and they never came back.

Who wants to be a lorry driver anyway ?


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## paulrbarnard (1 Oct 2021)

Droogs said:


> You are aware that because of physics mumbo jumbo (atmospheric pressure), air doesn't have any effect of the weight of a packet of sugar puffs nor on the laen weight of a lorry


But it does impact the volume meaning you need might more trucks to ship those sugar puffs


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## Terrytpot (1 Oct 2021)

Richard_C said:


> Under EU rules, any carrier (and airlines are a good example) could trade between any 2 points - a Norbert Detressangle truck could have come to the UK with French goods, drop them in (say) Leeds, take a UK load from Leeds to Dagenham, then a return load to France. But now we are no longer in the EU I don't think they can do that middle bit - UK to UK
> 
> I do have one partial answer. One driver - one truck so it makes sense to have the truck as full as possible. I'm sure schedulers are very good at that, it's the way to make the whole system affordable and profitable. But what does full mean? Capacity is limited by weight and volume.
> 
> You can't do anything about weight - a ton of bricks is a ton of bricks - but if you look around a supermarket you realise a lot of volume is just air. Stop shipping air. Sugar Puffs minus the puff. Corn, not cornflakes. Ban pasta that has a hole - spaghetti fine, penne is space inefficient. Suck the gas out of bags of crisps. Trebor mints, no Polos.



Being an HGV driver for over 25 years I have a comment or two to make..
norberts got bought by XPO and even pre departure of the eu that middle bit could have qualified as cabotage so still may not have been permitted but as there was no one to enforce that legislation a lot of work was lost for uk companies.

My current firm runs 15 trucks…today we have 26 runs scheduled to take place arguing that one driver per truck is perhaps not the vehicles most efficient use. This could make you think you were right about scheduler’s being efficient until you see what the vehicle actually does during it’s shift!

Hmm,weight. There are very few loads on the road getting anywhere near load capacity. Most trucks are plated to run upto 44tons but only bulk products get anywhere near those limits eg steel,gypsum,liquids or raw materials. Unfortunately all of those “raw materials“ come in quantities that large that your average destination capable of handling them has to be a processor/fabricator and they occupy large quantities of real estate. Your average RDC’s handle far more visits and their loads are already downsized to consumer level’s (although still large amounts of them) but these will generally fall far short of weight limits unless you go Euclidean and just deliver liquids.

Long story short,it’s a job where double most jobs input is required from not Just you but also your family and where the emphasis has been to try and cut cost’s to be competitive for so long and with the price of fuel being the highest impediment the drivers wage has always been the easiest target, hence the influx over the last decades of cheaper labour from the eastern block. Shut that particular door and this is what happens.


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## Richard_C (1 Oct 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> But it does impact the volume meaning you need might more trucks to ship those sugar puffs



Exactly my point. I know that mass doesn't change unless you manage to use sugar puffs in a nuclear reaction. But I bet you can get 30 tons of sugar puffs in a lorry load if you compress them.


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## DavidConnelly (1 Oct 2021)

julianf said:


> You realise that many EU drivers were no longer welcome to operate in the UK when "freedom of movement" ended?
> 
> Hence the issuing of the temporary visas to band-aid the issue.
> 
> I thought this was common knowledge, or am i miss understanding your question?


I have friends who have been living in the UK for over 10 years as a working family. He is an HGV driver, she is a nurse. Both are law abiding.
Both were refused visa extensions and had to return home to mainland Europe. The kids were taken out of school and are missing their friends.
So here we are, a well educated, hard working, tax paying family who had made their home in England forced to leave by the UK govt. You reap what you sew. 
There's been a shortage of nurses for a long time too.


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## Richard_C (1 Oct 2021)

Droogs said:


> ou are aware that because of physics mumbo jumbo (atmospheric pressure), air doesn't have any effect of the weight of a packet of sugar puffs nor on the laen weight of a lorry


Yes. You are aware that a lorry has a weight limit and a length-height-width limit and can't have more space on the inside than it occupies on the outside?


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## Glitch (1 Oct 2021)

The reasons I've heard are:

Pre-Covid, Pre-Brexit shortage of 60,000 HGV drivers
Aging UK workforce not being replaced by UK youngsters who are told they need to go to university 
Aging UK workforce retiring early due to pay and conditions, Covid, additional tests required
Number of HGV driver tests plummeted 
Pay suppressed by cheaper workers from abroad
Dreadful working conditions, especially during Covid - lack of safe places to stop, showers/toilets closed
PITA driving in towns - bus lanes, cycle lanes, LTNs, traffic light phasing, 
Loss of cabotage (as described above)

In my opinion if you rely on 'temporary' workers from abroad then there is always the risk of external factors that cause them to return home.
Those that want to put down roots here have applied for settled status. 
Covid comes along, work dries up or you get furloughed it far cheaper/safer/profitable to return home


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## Droogs (1 Oct 2021)

No!  But it explains why I keep getting fired, by that volunteer Dr. WHO keeps sending me contracts though


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## Glitch (1 Oct 2021)

DavidConnelly said:


> I have friends who have been living in the UK for over 10 years as a working family. He is an HGV driver, she is a nurse. Both are law abiding.
> Both were refused visa extensions and had to return home to mainland Europe. The kids were taken out of school and are missing their friends.
> So here we are, a well educated, hard working, tax paying family who had made their home in England forced to leave by the UK govt. You reap what you sew.
> There's been a shortage of nurses for a long time too.



What visa? They'ed have been here under FoM.

10 years here they could have applied for settled status. It's wasn't difficult. My wife is UK born of Italian parents. We had to apply for my Father in Law and her Aunt, plus her cousin's husband. Plus we know several other Italian nationals who have been here for decades that successfully applied.


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## Droogs (1 Oct 2021)

Richard_C said:


> Exactly my point. I know that mass doesn't change unless you manage to use sugar puffs in a nuclear reaction. But I bet you can get 30 tons of sugar puffs in a lorry load if you compress them.


Wont that just be a tractor with a harvest wagon full of wheat? Mind you, we don't have any farmers either. ah well


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## stuart little (1 Oct 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Are you absolutely sure that a global pandemic with complete economic shutdown had nothing to do with it whatsoever? Not even a little bit?


Exactly,,I've read an article by Iain Duncan-Smith who claims it's Covid that's the culprit. All Europe & USA are short of drivers. Shut downs & furlough sent the HGV drivers home, many ended up finding other jobs or retiring etc.. If drivers already worked over here, surely it would've been relatively easy to get visas?


Trainee neophyte said:


> Are you absolutely sure that a global pandemic with complete economic shutdown had nothing to do with it whatsoever? Not even a little bit?


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## stuart little (1 Oct 2021)

Adam W. said:


> The universities took them to study media studies in the 90's and they never came back.
> 
> Who wants to be a lorry driver anyway ?


I did some HGV driving in the late 70's &early 80's but with today's traffic conditions No-way would I want to be out there with the 'silly person brigade' - I haven't bothered to drive since Covid 'took over', my cars's on SORN & there it can stay indeff..


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## Cooper (1 Oct 2021)

Richard_C said:


> I wonder, and its a genuine wonder, what effect rules on intra-country working have had. Under EU rules, any carrier (and airlines are a good example) could trade between any 2 points - a Norbert Detressangle truck could have come to the UK with French goods, drop them in (say) Leeds, take a UK load from Leeds to Dagenham, then a return load to France. But now we are no longer in the EU I don't think they can do that middle bit - UK to UK - and maybe that affects capacity.


I'm sure this is a large part of the problem. 
Also the price wars between supermarket chains squeezes delivery company margins and if they could get drivers from elsewhere rather than pay the thousands it costs to train their own it must have been almost a no brainer. It can't help that conditions drivers have to accept are so unpleasant.


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## Keith Cocker (1 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I think the BBC are farcical on all fronts, but there can be no doubt about the political leaning of the majority of news presenters.



So, Laura Kuensberg is left wing? Her predecessor as Political Editor, Nick Robinson, a lefty too? Look them up.


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## julianf (1 Oct 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> IMHO we have not seen the last of the fall out.



I feel we are only really seeing the start.


Unless evreything is just smoothed over (put off) by the pyramid scheme of yet more government debt, there will be significant changes ahead for many.


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## julianf (1 Oct 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> So, Laura Kuensberg is left wing? Her predecessor as Political Editor, Nick Robinson, a lefty too? Look them up.



Is Andrew Marr back at the BBC? I know he left for a while to start up that left wing GB news, or whatever it was called?

Edit : Neil, not Marr.


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## Keith Cocker (1 Oct 2021)

julianf said:


> Is Andrew Marr back at the BBC? I know he left for a while to start up that left wing GB news, or whatever it was called?





Brillo Pad Neil is in therapy after being shown to be an absolute failure.


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## doctor Bob (1 Oct 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> So, Laura Kuensberg is left wing? Her predecessor as Political Editor, Nick Robinson, a lefty too? Look them up.


I don't need to thanks, they are very popular.
A few dots of blue in an ocean of red does not mix to make blue.


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## doctor Bob (1 Oct 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> Brillo Pad Neil is in therapy after being shown to be an absolute failure.



I think in todays modern age we need to give people a bit of a break, I'm terrible for picking on Diane Abbott but maybe we need to look a bit deeper if it's stress, mental health, or health issues. Would you have a good giggle at a local teacher or policeman who had cracked under pressure?
I'm as guilty as the rest by the way, but the last year or two has been very stressful for a lot of people.


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## Droogs (1 Oct 2021)

julianf said:


> Is Andrew Marr back at the BBC? I know he left for a while to start up that left wing GB news, or whatever it was called?
> 
> Edit : Neil, not Marr.


GB News are definitely not left wing, they''re our very own kitch version of Fox


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## Spectric (1 Oct 2021)

Glitch said:


> Aging UK workforce not being replaced by UK youngsters who are told they need to go to university


A good example of another great failure, now university is the norm it no longer holds the esteem for academics it once used to. There is nothing wrong with someone not being academic, being a tradesman is the right direction for many who are better with their hands than floging the grey mater and the days of the technical college need to return, just be hard to find the teachers of the calibre we once had. Then to make maters worse you can now go to university for a degree in drama, flower arranging or animal behaviour and psychology which is a joke, a get out of work clause ut with a large debt.

When you see these students they seem to place more emphasis on the social life at uni than the actual studying, what has happened to when you just slogged your way through the term and just let go in between terms. Now we have a shortage of skilled hands on people like engineers, plumbers and sparks because uni has taught them that life is easier when you don't get your hands dirty.

All these issues have been festering for years and now we are seeing payback as the older generation retire with no one to follow on and it will take decades to put all this right once we get out of the " everyone needs a degree mode".



Glitch said:


> Pre-Covid, Pre-Brexit shortage of 60,000 HGV drivers


This shows just how unresponsive our leader ship is, they are like a large wilderbeast stuck in a mudhole, they can see an issue approaching and just start talking about it and having meetings and running around like headless chickens, when they next look that issue has impacted and grown to a huge size so they just shut their eyes like a child hiding under the bedcovers because the wardrobe monster is coming and hope it will just go away.


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## GregW (1 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Everytime the news comes on all I seem to hear is that we are short of 100,000 lorry drivers, how can you lose so many that quickly. Did they all retire at once, abducted by aliens, laid up with long covid or what?
> 
> If it had been a slow process of loss then surely alarm bells would have been ringing at say 20,000 short and by 50,000 it would have been a national issue so either they have all vanished at once for some reason or we have a country that is out of control and in freefall, who waits until 100,000 short before raising the issue and Brexit cannot be held accountable for this one unless they were all French in disguise!



You obviously do not comprehend how HIRE and CONTRACTOR on international scale looks like, thanking under consideration, that drivers can’t just drive into UK to work as they used to before 54% of this country decided to evict 6 million skilled/semi-skilled workers “back to where they came from”


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## GregW (1 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Media still on about fuel crisis, I'm SE and everybody at work filled up today no issues. No panic as we all had enough last week.



It’s to do with swapping petrol on new type. Mixed up must be recycled.
Why not to drive spooked sheep into buying it on spiked prices?


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## flying haggis (1 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> This shows just how unresponsive our leader ship is, they are like a large wilderbeast stuck in a mudhole, they can see an issue approaching and just start talking about it and having meetings and running around like headless chickens, when they next look that issue has impacted and grown to a huge size so they just shut their eyes like a child hiding under the bedcovers because the wardrobe monster is coming and hope it will just go away.



And exactly the same can be said about the owners/management of the large haulage companies who for years have relied on cheap foreign labour to drive the trucks. When we voted out it should have rung alarm bells in the transport offices of the land but they also stuck their collective heads in the sand. Why should the government look after private firms and tell them how to run their business? If companies fail due to not being forward thinking ie realising the supply of cheap drivers might disappear then tough, although I would feel sorry for anyone losing their livelihood due to bad management.


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## Spectric (1 Oct 2021)

GregW said:


> that drivers can’t just drive into UK to work as they used to before 54% of this country decided to evict 6 million skilled/semi-skilled workers “back to where they came from”


But that is down to planing, if you know something is going to change and you are going to have a shortage of something then put something into place first, bit like buying a fire alarm after the house has burnt down.


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## Spectric (1 Oct 2021)

flying haggis said:


> And exactly the same can be said about the owners/management of the large haulage companies who for years have relied on cheap foreign labour


Same as many in the fruit and veg game, but is this not a throwback to the British empire!


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## Glitch (1 Oct 2021)

GregW said:


> You obviously do not comprehend how HIRE and CONTRACTOR on international scale looks like, thanking under consideration, that drivers can’t just drive into UK to work as they used to before 54% of this country decided to evict 6 million skilled/semi-skilled workers “back to where they came from”



Reminds me. I'd forgotten IR35 changes in my list. Favourable tax breaks for the self employed drivers have been reduced.

No one has been evicted as afar as I know.


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## doctor Bob (1 Oct 2021)

Last year everyone was "ohh how lovely", looking out for one another, nature, cake making ................... now it's every man for himself and F--- you.

Amazing how quickly people change. 
Guy in front of me yesterday in the petrol queue put in £10 something, bloody daft twot.
I'm a bit sick of it, I'm lucky I'm doing OK, I feel sorry for the grafters on the edge who cannot work any harder but still more goes out.
Taking my guys 10 pin bowling next week and a few drinks just to give em a break for the day.


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## GregW (1 Oct 2021)

Glitch said:


> Reminds me. I'd forgotten IR35 changes in my list. Favourable tax breaks for the self employed drivers have been reduced.
> 
> No one has been evicted as afar as I know.



Over 50.000 entry denial since June, on “return” is a “eviction” from my point of view.
How many foreigners were “returning” with no papers (visa or settlement) no one will know. Just pointing out that a thousands ion people, especially seasonal workers, were told “turn around” on French/UK border.


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## doctor Bob (1 Oct 2021)

Kids seem to be directed to university these days and lots end up as middle management in an office, I believe 40% never pay the student loan due low earnings.
My son chose a trade (not woodworking), I'm really proud how hard he grafts, I also know he has bags of potential to do really well. I never thought I'd have what I have and it's all been achieved by a trade and a bit of effort. People should be proud to be a trade, a lot earn way more than "professionals".
I think mental health is a real issue these days and the thought of choosing a profession where you have to study for life horrifies me. Trades are great, do your job to the best of your ability, get paid, go home. (yes I know there are rogues out there)
Stress levels on everyone these days seem horrendous.


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## GregW (1 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Last year everyone was "ohh how lovely", looking out for one another, nature, cake making ................... now it's every man for himself and F--- you.
> 
> Amazing how quickly people change.
> Guy in front of me yesterday in the petrol queue put in £10 something, bloody daft twot.
> ...



I know what you mean…. I had to send one oldest of the team on furlough; told him to keep using his fuel card and food card as per normal time as in work regardless… 
Hopefully not so much cutthroats in the business this crisis time round…. :/


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## selectortone (1 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Guy in front of me yesterday in the petrol queue put in £10 something, bloody daft twot.


Twots indeed. 

Never mind £30 max limits, it's a shame a minimum limit couldn't be implemented - £30 minimum no matter how little is put in the tank.


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## julianf (1 Oct 2021)

Someone on a different forum that I'm on runs one of the pallet firms that you may or may not have used in the past.

In July, he posted this -



> I did post this a while ago but some people just didn't seem to understand.
> UK road transport is getting worse not better.
> The terrible driver shortage is having a huge effect now. Even starting to effect the big boys like Tesco.
> It may come to the stage where B2B deliveries have to take priority over home shopping.
> ...


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## GregW (1 Oct 2021)

selectortone said:


> Twots indeed.
> 
> Never mind £30 max limits, it's a shame a minimum limit couldn't be implemented - £30 minimum no matter how little is put in the tank.



I put whole tank. Saves me time on driving to do it….

Soon there will be £100 contactless on stations too, with face recording camera like grocery store self-service checkouts…

Edit: they working on face recognition payment platform as we speak. That is for pay-point-free shops.


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## Noel (1 Oct 2021)

Fuel supplies: Mortar tanker tailed by drivers looking for petrol


Driver Johnny Anderson says about 20 vehicles followed him to a building site in Northamptonshire.



www.bbc.co.uk


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## woodieallen (1 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> ... the thought of choosing a profession where you have to study for life horrifies me....



What? Like doctors, you mean ?


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## doctor Bob (1 Oct 2021)

woodieallen said:


> What? Like doctors, you mean ?



Yes absolutely, I just couldn't and wouldn't want to do it. I have stress due to running a business and it's taken me many years to get a good balance but ultimately I want a simple life with a decent income. but if I had to choose one or the other it would be a simple life.


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## baldkev (1 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> This shows just how unresponsive our leader ship is, they are like a large wilderbeast stuck in a mudhole, they can see an issue approaching and just start talking about it and having meetings and running around like headless chickens, when they next look that issue has impacted and grown to a huge size so they just shut their eyes like a child hiding under the bedcovers because the wardrobe monster is coming and hope it will just go away.



I agree, they have been mostly useless, but be honest, most politicians and governments are useless, just in different ways. Think of the alternative, a corbyn led uk....  thats why boris won


GregW said:


> before 54% of this country decided to evict 6 million skilled/semi-skilled workers “back to where they came from



Its not fair or right to suggest that 54% of the u.k think that way. Sure, theres a lot of uneducated people, racists and more, but most thinking people realise that the u.k needs some degree of influx of workers and knowledge. The problem is actually that the governments ( whoever is in charge ) basically do what they want and not necessarily what the majority of the population want or need. It wasnt a vote to ban foreigners or to import more, its a simple fact that the government chose to be idiots about it.

Just like the proposed 15 quid an hour minimum wage.... how stupid are these people? As soon as low earnings rise EVERYTHING rises because all prices are underpinned by low wages. So food, fuel, clothes, everything goes up and you are worse off than before . The reality is we need to reduce the cost of living by driving down the high earners and 'bonuses' etc and make it a more level playing field. What are solicitors now? 200 an hour? So if you are unfortunate enough to need a solicitor whilst yoy work a dayjob at tesco, you have to work about 18 hours to pay for 1 hour with a solicitor. And you definitely arent buying a house near me.


I'll wind my neck in now 

Edits due to poor spelling


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## Jake (1 Oct 2021)

Seems fair enough Bob. Depends what drives you I suppose and what you like doing.


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## RobinBHM (1 Oct 2021)

Maybe the terrible traffic is why lorry drivers have left the industry.

I find car driving in the UK…especially near the M25, is awful…goodness knows what it’s like to do it for a living at 56mph


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## Spectric (1 Oct 2021)

Corbyn is what nightmares are made off, but it handed the torries an election. I think the criteria for any politician is you must be a ditherer, the ability to avoid answering a question outright, be able to lie with a smile on your face and walk a tight line between outright corruption and slight dishonesty. 



baldkev said:


> but most thinking people realise that the u.k needs some degree of influx of workers and knowledge.


 Thats how far we have gone down the ubend, we had knowledge and skills that were the envy of the world and many leading industries but have just sat by and watched the rot set in and everything fall apart, did not even put up a fight or any resistance as what was our empire just dismantled our industries and now they are the world leaders.

Could a mere solicitor afford parts of Devon these days, got to be a barrister or higher up so no hope for a tradition fisherman anymore.


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## Spectric (1 Oct 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I find car driving in the UK…especially near the M25, is awful…goodness knows what it’s like to do it for a living at 56mph


That conjestion and over population is what finaly drove me out of the south, they wonder why there is a mental health crisis, they are obviously not that bright if they cannot figure that one out. Humans are not supposed to be treated like battery farmed hens, saying that hens should not be treated like that either. If you want to see the future of down south then think of a very dirty and inefficient version of Japan.


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## RobinBHM (1 Oct 2021)

flying haggis said:


> But shouldnt the RHA have been campaigning amongst members to employ and train new drivers rather than rely on "cheap" foreign labour. But of course that might have meant proper wages for the British drivers...........


what makes you think they haven’t.


The problem is big business driving down prices for logistics, decades of weakening unions, increasing Inequality.

the problem is not cheap foreign Labour, but decades neo liberal policies.


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## baldkev (1 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Could a mere solicitor afford parts of Devon these days, got to be a barrister or higher up so no hope for a tradition fisherman anymore.




A 2 bed house in our town has just come on the market, offers in excess of 550k.....

Most local fishermen are crabbers.... and they actually earn very well ( hard work though ) but generally arent good with their money  my brother in law is one of them....


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## RobinBHM (1 Oct 2021)

baldkev said:


> I agree, they have been mostly useless, but be honest, most politicians and governments are useless, just in different ways. Think of the alternative, a corbyn led uk....  thats why boris won
> 
> 
> Its not fair or right to suggest that 54% of the u.k think that way. Sure, theres a lot of uneducated people, racists and more, but most thinking people realise that the u.k needs some degree of influx of workers and knowledge. The problem is actually that the governments ( whoever is in charge ) basically do what they want and not necessarily what the majority of the population want or need. It wasnt a vote to ban foreigners or to import more, its a simple fact that the government chose to be idiots about it.
> ...



are you a lawyer?


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## baldkev (1 Oct 2021)

I wish! Im a self employed carpenter / general builder. To be honest, if we hadnt got on the ladder when we did ( high prices, but dead easy to get a mortgage without deposit ) we wouldnt have managed it.... we have a 2 bed house with 2 boys.... and now another on the way  so im trying to organise planning for an extension and loft conversion because there is no way we can buy a bigger house... i am however lucky to be on the ladder and we are a few minutes walk to the beach ⛱


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## Jake (1 Oct 2021)

julianf said:


> Someone on a different forum that I'm on runs one of the pallet firms that you may or may not have used in the past.In July, he posted this -



"every kid has a degree now so it is beneath them" seems pretty sour. There is nothing wrong in looking for something more interesting or well paid. Is he claiming that people with degrees have a higher rate of not having any job to avoid a driving job than people without a degree?


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## TominDales (1 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes absolutely, I just couldn't and wouldn't want to do it. I have stress due to running a business and it's taken me many years to get a good balance but ultimately I want a simple life with a decent income. but if I had to choose one or the other it would be a simple life.


I think it depends on what you enjoy. I have learnt something new every day since I finished my D.phil, its what excites me about work. But I suspect you learnt something new every day, most trades people I work with are also learning, but they take it in their stride. The key thing for youngster is to (i) value/respect different professions/vocations as they all (mostly) do valuable stuff whether its with hands or heads and (ii) encourage youngsters to find things they like. Sadly there are those jobs that people have to do to pay the rent, but if there is more choice these days than before. 
The really good news about the shortage of drivers is that it has highlighted the low pay and conditions for HGV. If wages go up and the appalling safety conditions get addressed then something good will have come out of this debacle. We will have to get used to buying a bit less stuff as the price goes up. For most of us we will cope.


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## baldkev (1 Oct 2021)

TominDales said:


> We will have to get used to buying a bit less stuff as the price goes up


 Theres another thing.... these days there is so much choice, so many 'products' to buy, things to watch, mobile phones, tablets, tv and internet packages, virtually anything you can think of and amazon will deliver it ( ok, in a few days ) even, probably, a hairy ball/ crack scratcher....  I'll have to search for that to fact check myself .... whereas 20 years ago, all this [email protected] didnt exist. The major tool suppliers now do battery everything ( battery ball scratchers, leaf blowers, even caulking guns!! ) and often they do at least 4 different models of each!! Lxt ball scratcher, brushless ball scratcher, brushless ball scratcher with led light, brushless ball scratcher, led light and inbuilt pubic hairdrier!!! ( im gonna patent that one )
Why cant they just do 2? A cheap one and a professional one? 
The cost of living is high because of all our add ons... im talking to you lot on my mobile, through the wifi broadband package.... and everwhere i look someone is trying to flog me more stuff  and sometimes I buy it


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## Trainee neophyte (2 Oct 2021)

The average age of a farmer is between 50 and 70, depending on which doom - laden report you want to read. Young people are not becoming farmers because everyone wants indoor work with no heavy lifting, and who can afford to buy a farm?. At some point this will become even more interesting, once the vast majority work out that farmers produce food, rather than keep the countryside tidy and footpaths open for townie weekend picnics and pleasant walks.

Perhaps if transport costs go up, food miles will come down? I have accidentally bought some Vietnamese catfish recently - it looked like pollock -it tastes revolting, has a nasty texture, and was pulled from the Mekong river, so who knows what pollutants, heavy metals etc are in it. But it was cheap, so shipping it halfway around the world must be good. I'm planning on growing my own carp - we'll see how that goes. In the meantime, no transport means no food - plastic Chinese novelties will take a back seat.


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## Pineapple (2 Oct 2021)

selectortone said:


> I'm really disappointed with the BBC. On Monday they were saying all day that the fuel issue was caused by 'a shortage of HGV drivers'. It wasn't. Nothing had changed from the week before when a handful of petrol stations of one supplier were having problems - that were being addressed within 24 hours. The shortage of fuel was caused by panic buying whipped up by the BBC's own incorrect and irresponsible reporting. Talk about self-fulfilling prophesies! Meanwhile ambulances are being caught in gridlocks around petrol stations, people are missing hospital appointments, nurses and care staff are worried about getting to work and all the rest. All entirely unnecessary. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.


In an Efficiently-Run Health Service All ambulance stations would have their own bulk-fuel-tanks & pumps. 
The government could then aggree bulk-purchase prices for the fuel and contracts which would Prioritise NHS Fuel-Deliveries. - It's just unfortunate that the overpaid managers within the NHS haven't realised this !


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## Adam W. (2 Oct 2021)

I like continuous learning, which is why I've gone back to university for the fourth time and certainly not the last. I also have a trade, so I'm more than happy to be a handy academic and I don't look down on anyone who knows what they're either doing or talking about, regardless of their qualifications.

I do have an strong aversion to those who suffer from Dunning-Kruger, thobut.

I could also see myself driving an HVG at the weekends ( not in Britain though, because the wages and conditions are shiz) and making art stuff during the week.


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## Pineapple (2 Oct 2021)

Richard_C said:


> There is bound to be some shortage simply because of lockdown. I think I read that there are c 700,000 drivers. If 5% leave each year (retire, move on, etc) you need 35,000 to keep up. During lockdown there was no hgv driver training and no tests for many months, I think testing took a long time to come back on stream. If it works out as a 12 month hiatus and the industry can't replace leavers then there is a shortage. During lockdowns full and partial net demand probably fell: lots of activities we didn't or couldn't do including filling our cars to get to work or go on trips, restocking high street fashion stores, etc etc. although home delivery boomed. Now demand is back 'plus some'. So part of the shortage must be covid related, the rest a mix of long term decline in numbers and the unmentionable B word.
> 
> I wonder, and its a genuine wonder, what effect rules on intra-country working have had. Under EU rules, any carrier (and airlines are a good example) could trade between any 2 points - a Norbert Detressangle truck could have come to the UK with French goods, drop them in (say) Leeds, take a UK load from Leeds to Dagenham, then a return load to France. But now we are no longer in the EU I don't think they can do that middle bit - UK to UK - and maybe that affects capacity.
> 
> ...


PS - RYVITA is 13% ingredients ! - The rest of the bulk is the air-bubbles ! 
Aero chocolate is similar....You have a very good point !


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## Richard_C (2 Oct 2021)

Pineapple said:


> In an Efficiently-Run Health Service All ambulance stations would have their own bulk-fuel-tanks & pumps.
> The government could then aggree bulk-purchase prices for the fuel and contracts which would Prioritise NHS Fuel-Deliveries. - It's just unfortunate that the overpaid managers within the NHS haven't realised this


NHS managers are smarter than you think. They realise that owning and running petrol storage is unnecessary. A petrol station near me simply holds a reserve for ambulances, when it stops serving retail customers because it has "run out" it still retains a substantial reserve for emergency vehicles under contract.


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## clogs (2 Oct 2021)

a cop I know up in Manchester said a while ago an average of 50% plus of new cops has a Uni degree......mmmmmm
I asked what they do for commonsence......
we've let the tail wag the dog for tooooo long......
unions are [email protected] so thats not the way to go......

when in buisiness I used to charge what I thought was a fair price for my skills....always had plenty of work.....often people would try to negociate...
they were showed the door....
it's nice to save a few quid but there are conciquences to that SOMETIMES...


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## Stevekane (2 Oct 2021)

I read a couple of years ago that Google and Uber were collaborating on developing Self Driving lorries, self driving cars are just round the corner, but lorries with all the driver issues, limits on hours ect is clearly somthing worth persueing. Google and Uber may have subsequently had a falling out (?) but given the present shenanigans you can bet that the development is continuing apace somewhere. I believe that farming is another area where super high tech is already having an impact and given the environment they operate in you would think its even easier to self drive a combine or a tractor.
Steve.


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## Droogs (2 Oct 2021)

but nowhere near as much fun. I would work on a farm if all I had to do was drive the combine


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## baldkev (2 Oct 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The average age of a farmer is between 50 and 70, depending on which doom - laden report you want to read. Young people are not becoming farmers because everyone wants indoor work with no heavy lifting, and who can afford to buy a farm?.



Mostly the kids take over the farms and certainly round here theres plenty of young farmers. Got knows why, i hate poo



Pineapple said:


> In an Efficiently-Run Health Service All ambulance stations would have their own bulk-fuel-tanks & pumps.



And allowed to run on red. This should include the police, fire etc too.
Years back a job came up in plymouth for the nhs. The job description was to find ways to reduce costs for the local nhs trust. The pay was listed as £430 a day!!!!! I applied ( obviously no chance ) and stated that my first act would be to save them 200 a day by taking a pay cut  
But that goes to show how stupid the system is. There's plenty of intelligent people who havent been through uni etc and ive met quite a few on building sites.....


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## Terry - Somerset (2 Oct 2021)

The HGV and fuel "crisis" is a harbinger of things to come.

The average age in the building trade is now over 50. Young people looking for their first job simply cannot cope with, or don't like, with the physical effort necessary.

For the past 4 decades "professional" work has tended to carry a pay premium. Why get cold, wet and ache when you can sit in an office and earn more money - brain not brawn rules!

Brexit and Covid has crystallised skill shortages in the UK due to failures in training provision. In a largely unregulated free market it falls to businesses to respond. They have failed to do so, finding it easier to make up national deficiencies by recruiting overseas.

The relatively low regard and pay for traditional trades arose in large part as manual effort was the early and easy target for automation and cost reduction. Artificial Intelligence may now increasingly marginalise "professional" skills in the same way.

It seems likely the rewards for jobs involving both intelligence and physical effort will increase, whist traditionally office based roles in marketing, finance, scheduling, logistics, some medicine and legal etc will decline.

Forum members may who value craftsmanship may appreciate a better balance between intellectual ability and physical creativity!


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## flying haggis (2 Oct 2021)

Bubble wrap doesnt work very well if has been flattened to maximise transport viability though does it.


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## Jake (2 Oct 2021)

clogs said:


> a cop I know up in Manchester said a while ago an average of 50% plus of new cops has a Uni degree......mmmmmm



What's wrong with that? Is there a particular advantage in having less well educated cops?


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## Richard_C (2 Oct 2021)

baldkev said:


> Mostly the kids take over the farms and certainly round here theres plenty of young farmers. Got knows why,



Because there is stonking great inheritance tax relief for farms (land and buildings) so it makes sense to pass it down the generations. Fine for small family farms I guess, but it also applies to the very big estates of the landed gentry.


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## doctor Bob (2 Oct 2021)

One of my clients a city banker just bought an estate for this purpose


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## clogs (2 Oct 2021)

Jake
the point is they have *NO* commonsence...
just clever idiots......


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## Chris152 (2 Oct 2021)

clogs said:


> Jake
> the point is they have *NO* commonsence...
> just clever idiots......


Whereas this is just complete nonsense.


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## Jake (2 Oct 2021)

Education does not reduce common sense. If anything it tends to increase it (although that is not necessarily the case).


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## ivan (2 Oct 2021)

When I left school in the early 1960's, we were told that about 5% of school leavers left with 3 or more A levels, and about half that number (2.5%) went on to university. A degree will "put you in the top 2.5% entering the job market", we were told. Whilst the range of intelligence has not varied across society, now 50% attend university. Entry is therefore now much easier, and most courses run at much lower academic levels. In 1960 our teachers made jokes about the USA having degrees in golf green maintenance... hmmm.
Post war, we, the workforce, were mainly badly managed, mainly by people who got their job by virue of family connections, not expertise. In post war Germany, managers had to have both relevant academic and business qualifications. The difference has been increasingly obvious. A symptom has also been the lack of investment in staff (cheaper to poach from elsewhere) which led to the creation of Training Boards in the 70's which were supposed to push reluctant employers into people developers. This was not entirely successful, employers wanted the tech colleges to do the training for them. Now the technical colleges are all "universities", and all "white collar".
Bozoboris says he wants a high wage high skill economy - so, no jobs for the lower skilled? Bozo says "we'll have to get used to paying more"...
If no EU make up, the long term consequence will be considerable industrial restructuring. Cornish low cost eateries etc. will go, and be replaced by fewer michelin restaurants for those who can still afford to live there. Any remaining low skill workers will have to commute in, either individually or through contract service companies.
Large machines have replaced most landworkers, on the larger farms (25% biggest produce 75% of our food). Smaller farms will go, or be farmed part time. If no low cost labour for fruit and vegetable harvesting, vegetable growing will decline, home grown price will go up, and so we'll begin to import more through our new "world class trade deals". Same applies to meat as large part of supply chain dependent on EU labour. Driverless tractors are already here, but harvesting requires operator discrimination in many cases, much harder to automate. You can bet that it will be those in the lower part of the wage ladder who will feel the effect of more expensive essentials the most.

This of course, has been exacerbated by covid, and grounded container vessels in the Suez canal, but would have happened anyway. I hope the Brexit Bus is stuck in a fuel queue somewhere, whilst we celebrate the wonderful life Brexit is beginning to reveal to us...


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## Jacob (2 Oct 2021)

baldkev said:


> ...As soon as low earnings rise EVERYTHING rises because all prices are underpinned by low wages.....


Absolutely. Lower the better. We were much better off with slavery - it's what made Britain the place it is today.


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## baldkev (2 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Absolutely. Lower the better. We were much better off with slavery - it's what made Britain the place it is today.




Not quite what i meant  my point is that we need to reduce the cost of living ( especially for low earners ) rather than increase low wages. Unfortunately we have got to a point where it cost SO much to run the country that the general tax situation is very high and it doesn't help the low incomes.... maybe there could be taxes aimed at luxury purchases ( the kind that only rich people would buy ) ? Or tax on second homes etc...


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## RobinBHM (2 Oct 2021)

baldkev said:


> Not quite what i meant  my point is that we need to reduce the cost of living ( especially for low earners ) rather than increase low wages. Unfortunately we have got to a point where it cost SO much to run the country that the general tax situation is very high and it doesn't help the low incomes.... maybe there could be taxes aimed at luxury purchases ( the kind that only rich people would buy ) ? Or tax on second homes etc...



We already have tax credits, which some people argue is subsidising employers low wages.

but on the other hand increasing wages will result in the price of things going up.


it’s a difficult balance.

I do think the high cost of housing and rent is a major factor pushing people into poverty….the housing crisis needs to be sorted out.


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## doctor Bob (2 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Absolutely. Lower the better. We were much better off with slavery - it's what made Britain the place it is today.


£15/hr man I presume Jacob. I think £15 is un realistic but I do agree min wage is way too low.


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## Spectric (2 Oct 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The average age in the building trade is now over 50. Young people looking for their first job simply cannot cope with, or don't like, with the physical effort necessary.


Yes they do seem to be more fragile these days but then whose fault is it that they cannot have the freedom in childhood to roam and play outside like was once the norm due to the risk from weido's and all the other o's.


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## doctor Bob (2 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes they do seem to be more fragile these days but then whose fault is it that they cannot have the freedom in childhood to roam and play outside like was once the norm due to the risk from weido's and all the other o's.



Well I'd just like to say in 1974 doing "Bob a job" aged 9 a bloke answered the door with his meat and 2 veg showing, as kids we thought it was hilarious as he'd obviously forgot to put it away after a wee........................... I was about 25 when it suddenly dawned on me it wasn't an accident. Not convinced that incident made me less fragile.


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## Richard_C (2 Oct 2021)

This thread started with a fairly reasoned and well informed discussion about the shortage of HGV drivers, and has moved, via slagging off Corbyn, questioning the value of educating the police and various other diversions, to arrive at semi naked door answerers.

Time to be off, I think.


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## Stevekane (2 Oct 2021)

Its a wide ranging debate thats for sure,,so what about the notion of a “Universal Wage” the idea being that everyone just gets paid a living wage and if you want to work on top of that its just extra income. That way people who cannot find jobs, say the van and tractor drivers whos vehicles are now driverless can instead work within their communities, say doing an art class, or music or helping out at old peoples homes as p/t self employed. It all sounds very left wing and radical but Mark Carney, the prev bank of england boss said in a speech at the lord mayors dinner that it was something that we needed to consider. There might come a time when many of the jobs we now have will disapear,,,look at the retail sector as a for instance and it will be no good trying to badger people into jobs that do not exist by labeling them as “dole scroungers” Im clueless about economics but I suspect that as long as you properly tax the big companies like google and then give this money to people who just spend it you create an economy? and their contribution is enriching the comumunity where they live.
Steve.


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## Spectric (2 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Well I'd just like to say in 1974 doing "Bob a job" aged 9 a bloke answered the door with his meat and 2 veg showing, as kids we thought it was hilarious as he'd obviously forgot to put it away after a wee


Does that not show how we were children, innocent and you thought nothing of it at the time, just a laugh. It was a different thought process back then, I could wander for miles in Hornchurch without worry rain or shine and it must be a healthier way rather than sitting indoors looking at screens.


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## doctor Bob (2 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Does that not show how we were children, innocent and you thought nothing of it at the time, just a laugh. It was a different thought process back then, I could wander for miles in Hornchurch without worry rain or shine and it must be a healthier way rather than sitting indoors looking at screens.


Yes I suppose it does.


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## Adam W. (2 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Does that not show how we were children, innocent and you thought nothing of it at the time, just a laugh. It was a different thought process back then, I could wander for miles in Hornchurch without worry rain or shine and it must be a healthier way rather than sitting indoors looking at screens.


Good grief!

I'm from Upminster.


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## Spectric (2 Oct 2021)

Good grief!

I'm from Upminster. 

I was born in Stourway in Cranham and as a kid we shopped in Upminster as I still remember the little pond outside the doctors surgery!


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## Adam W. (2 Oct 2021)

I was born in Cranham and I'm sitting there right now at mums. I went to Ogelthorpe then Gaynes.


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## John Brown (2 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes they do seem to be more fragile these days but then whose fault is it that they cannot have the freedom in childhood to roam and play outside like was once the norm due to the risk from weido's and all the other o's.


From what I've read, over the years, there are no more weirdos or perverts about now than there were 50 years ago.


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## Spectric (2 Oct 2021)

John Brown said:


> From what I've read, over the years, there are no more weirdos or perverts about now than there were 50 years ago.


Maybe not, but were they free to roam or kept under control. How many women were raped and cremated back then! I think the streets are not as safe as they were fifty years ago.


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## Jameshow (2 Oct 2021)

Stevekane said:


> Its a wide ranging debate thats for sure,,so what about the notion of a “Universal Wage” the idea being that everyone just gets paid a living wage and if you want to work on top of that its just extra income. That way people who cannot find jobs, say the van and tractor drivers whos vehicles are now driverless can instead work within their communities, say doing an art class, or music or helping out at old peoples homes as p/t self employed. It all sounds very left wing and radical but Mark Carney, the prev bank of england boss said in a speech at the lord mayors dinner that it was something that we needed to consider. There might come a time when many of the jobs we now have will disapear,,,look at the retail sector as a for instance and it will be no good trying to badger people into jobs that do not exist by labeling them as “dole scroungers” Im clueless about economics but I suspect that as long as you properly tax the big companies like google and then give this money to people who just spend it you create an economy? and their contribution is enriching the comumunity where they live.
> Steve.


No we just need jobs for average and below people. 

Politicians don't get this they talk if a hi tech society which condemns 50% of the population (esp males) to a life of poverty and often joblessness. What we need is jobs for all strata of society rather than outsourcing our lower paid jobs to Poland, Slovakia or China. 

As the owner of Ebac said his workforce aren't the brightest but they are hard workers. 

Cheers James


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## Spectric (2 Oct 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I was born in Cranham and I'm sitting there right now at mums.


Cranham in 61 to 65, then Hornchurch and Wykenham school. I bet I would not reconise anything around there now, and the M25 is nearby now as well.


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## Jake (2 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Maybe not, but were they free to roam or kept under control. How many women were raped and cremated back then! I think the streets are not as safe as they were fifty years ago.



Crime has generally gone down, it is more reported.


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## baldkev (3 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> Maybe not, but were they free to roam or kept under control. How many women were raped and cremated back then! I think the streets are not as safe as they were fifty years ago.



As above, we now have the internet and fast media coverage. Back in the 60s the papers were probably once a week? ( im 40 so i don't know ) and the national papers wouldnt get all the stories from local papers etc, so it wasnt covered like it is today....


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## Terry - Somerset (3 Oct 2021)

Over the last four decades millions of jobs have gone - steel workers, coal miners, car workers, typists, switchboard operators, clerical assistants, general manufacturing etc etc.

There should now be 5-8m unemployed - offsetting these losses are new jobs in media, IT, logistics, marketing, financial services etc etc. Today, vacancies outnumber unemployed!

I am not commending complacency - it is a result of evolving technologies and society. For most the standard of living has materially improved. AI and further automation need not lead to unemployment but changed employment - both the nature of jobs and working hours.

The debate about minimum wage also seems somewhat futile, save that at a very basic level it avoids complete poverty and gross exploitation (a good outcome).

Wealth created in an economy is determined largely by government policy - tax, borrowing, investment, interest rates, competition law etc etc. The issue is how that wealth is shared.

Changing the way it is shared may increase or decrease the total wealth created. It may even be deemed reasonable to sacrifice some wealth in the interest of social fairness.

Increasing the minimum wage to the national average of £15ph will be either inflationary, or require a major re-allocation of wealth from the better off to the less well off. 

It is a completely fatuous proposition requiring the reduction of those above average to the average. I am sure there are some to whom it seems socially responsible and fair - it would probably consign the proponents to permanant opposition and is most unlikely to happen


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## Glitch (3 Oct 2021)

GregW said:


> Over 50.000 entry denial since June, on “return” is a “eviction” from my point of view.
> How many foreigners were “returning” with no papers (visa or settlement) no one will know. Just pointing out that a thousands ion people, especially seasonal workers, were told “turn around” on French/UK border.



Not sure where your figures are from. 7,249 according to this article which raises more sinister issues: 0ver 60% of EU citizens stopped at border are Romanian

There was plenty of opportunity to apply for settled, or pre-settled status but bound to be some people who didn't bother or couldn't produce all the evidence required.

Seasonal workers more likely to have problems securing it though. You have to produce a lot of paperwork to prove you've been living in the U.K.
My FiL didn't even have a valid passport to prove who he is! You would think it would be easy for someone granted ILR in the early 60's, 4 years after arriving in the UK but you can see how the Windrush scandal came about.

There simply isn't a perfect way to do it. We have no idea who is in the country and whether they are here legally.


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## GregW (3 Oct 2021)

Glitch said:


> Not sure where your figures are from. 7,249 according to this article which raises more sinister issues: 0ver 60% of EU citizens stopped at border are Romanian
> 
> There was plenty of opportunity to apply for settled, or pre-settled status but bound to be some people who didn't bother or couldn't produce all the evidence required.
> 
> ...



Border agency statistics. They not register nationality, so how The Guardian count it, no idea. Possibly the same way they counting miraculous jab success in millions non-infections


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## Glitch (3 Oct 2021)

Stevekane said:


> I read a couple of years ago that Google and Uber were collaborating on developing Self Driving lorries, self driving cars are just round the corner, but lorries with all the driver issues, limits on hours ect is clearly somthing worth persueing. Google and Uber may have subsequently had a falling out (?) but given the present shenanigans you can bet that the development is continuing apace somewhere. I believe that farming is another area where super high tech is already having an impact and given the environment they operate in you would think its even easier to self drive a combine or a tractor.
> Steve.



Automation is going to happen in virtually all areas of employment.
The technology in some areas is over-hyped - just look for the Dunning-Kruger curve for some of this stuff.

I got disillusioned in my final years working in Banking IT. There was a big push to automate manually intensive processes using technology. A lot of it didn't deliver the benefits for reasons that will be solved. As the service based economy there will be a huge reduction in jobs.

Automated cars, drones, farming automation, 3D printing, process automation, AI. Its all happening.


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## GregW (3 Oct 2021)

Glitch said:


> Automation is going to happen in virtually all areas of employment.
> The technology in some areas is over-hyped - just look for the Dunning-Kruger curve for some of this stuff.
> 
> I got disillusioned in my final years working in Banking IT. There was a big push to automate manually intensive processes using technology. A lot of it didn't deliver the benefits for reasons that will be solved. As the service based economy there will be a huge reduction in jobs.
> ...



Which is not bad think at all, however re-education is needed for manual workers to be needed in society, to repair these production robots, which just replaced the humans.

Humans were put into factories due lack of machines and high product demand. Look how fast Amazon taking over eBay market, just by reselling goods from other shops on Amazon. That would not happened on local Wednesday market…


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## Glitch (3 Oct 2021)

GregW said:


> Which is not bad think at all, however re-education is needed for manual workers to be needed in society, to repair these production robots, which just replaced the humans.
> 
> Humans were put into factories due lack of machines and high product demand. Look how fast Amazon taking over eBay market, just by reselling goods from other shops on Amazon. That would not happened on local Wednesday market…



I'd like to see the business case that replaces people with automation and all the redundant workforce get retrained to support the automation.

Same thinking that says automation will give us a lot more leisure time.


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## GregW (3 Oct 2021)

Glitch said:


> I'd like to see the business case that replaces people with automation and all the redundant workforce get retrained to support the automation.
> 
> Same thinking that says automation will give us a lot more leisure time.


Humans are made for work. We have skill that will never e replaced by any robot - aesthetics feel, craftsman and artisan creativity.

Btw : humans are curse of all automated processes failure. Not ever going to driving as human is a reason for almost every single accident. If AI would be allowed to run 100% on motorways, there will be 400% increase in communing flows… and that on current legal limits. AI + WiFi = no traffic jams etc


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## selectortone (3 Oct 2021)

Back in the 60s we were being told that in 50 or 60 years time robots and computers would be doing all the work and we would all have so much leisure time we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves. What wasn't forecast was that they would take all the jobs and people wouldn't have any money to enjoy all that leisure time.


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## Spectric (3 Oct 2021)

baldkev said:


> As above, we now have the internet and fast media coverage.


Yes cannot agree more, they have total exposure to anything and everything and with no discipline in schools they are being setup for running riot, the one thing we did learn was right and wrong, either the easy way or the hard way.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

baldkev said:


> Not quite what i meant  my point is that we need to reduce the cost of living ( especially for low earners ) rather than increase low wages......


Support your local food bank?
Special diets? Mrs Beeton used to have recipe for "Benevolent Soup" which was largely water and turnips.
The quickest way to reduce cost of living would be means-test rents so that people only paid what they could afford and also had security of tenure.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

Spectric said:


> ... they are being setup for running riot, .....


Good for them.Plenty to riot about nowadays


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

selectortone said:


> Back in the 60s we were being told that in 50 or 60 years time robots and computers would be doing all the work and we would all have so much leisure time we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves. What wasn't forecast was that they would take all the jobs and people wouldn't have any money to enjoy all that leisure time.


The problem is very simple; all the forecasts came true but the people freed from work have no livelihood. They must beg borrow steal, or argue with the welfare system. We need a civilised USB to make it possible.
It's as old as the industrial revolution and earlier - in principle the people owning and inventing machines didn't free anybody from the need to work, instead they took away their jobs and left them penniless.
The luddites weren't opposed to machinery they were opposed to losing their livelihoods.
Plus ça change!


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## Blackswanwood (3 Oct 2021)

GregW said:


> Border agency statistics. They not register nationality, so how The Guardian count it, no idea. Possibly the same way they counting miraculous jab success in millions non-infections



I suspect the Border Agency can tell us very accurately where entrants to the UK have come from as all passports are scanned on arrival.


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## Terry - Somerset (3 Oct 2021)

Luddites were ultimately completely misguided failures. They did not protect jobs. They did not stop automated machinery being introduced to improve efficiency. They were simply disruptive to no good long term effect.

A better strategy is to embrace change which is largely inevitable. Manufacturing and manual jobs have been replaced with IT, media, services, etc. Only those who failed to evolve have been left without livelihoods.

The only real issue is the speed of change. Too fast and inevitably some will find it difficult to adapt without appropriate training and support.


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## TominDales (3 Oct 2021)

Pineapple said:


> In an Efficiently-Run Health Service All ambulance stations would have their own bulk-fuel-tanks & pumps.
> The government could then aggree bulk-purchase prices for the fuel and contracts which would Prioritise NHS Fuel-Deliveries. - It's just unfortunate that the overpaid managers within the NHS haven't realised this !


I don't think they could have done anything about it in the timescale given their budgets and lack of resources and infrastructure needed to make this change on any realistic timescale. The fault lies with policy makers ie politicians and very senior civil servants. The government is trying to cope with two huge structural changes, Brexit and Covid, only a national plan can make a difference in on an acceptable time-scale.

The business model of resilient supplies of fuel and goods that you refer to went out in the 1980s. Up to then most large enterprises valued resilience more than today, and accepted the additional cost it imposed. Supplies weren't as readily available in the past, so most companies kept their own stock. However running services started to become expensive as professionalism and standards rose. Enterprises that had their own fuel supply found that the standard of the tanks started to change, they had to be put it underground and then they had to be bunded and systems put in place to prevent leakages, the expertise required to maintain such systems went beyond the level of the employees and in-house engineering. This happened across to board, ancillary services such as IT, catering, waste management, etc all started to be burdensome, to the point where these services were farmed out to specialist companies. The main OEM (eg car company) or service organisation (eg hospital or ambulance service) instead focused on what they were specialist at. So the NHS and most companies got rid of their fuel depots and used the services of a local supplier that specialised in providing the service. This allowed standards to rise and costs to fall. Many companies did away with storage tanks - they are expensive to maintain and those who supplied the service, saw utilisation of their resource shoot up as efficiencies could be made ( this was a general trend, not just fuel tanks, but for waste management, IT cloud, catering and so on). Stocks require financing through working capital, so reduced stocks in the system allowed organisations to reduce their financing costs. This reduction in cost/waste is at the expense or resilience to supply shocks. For most of the time, its not been an issue, there have been lots of reliable suppliers, plenty of choice was available, so the need for resilience was not an issue. The EU single market accellerated this change. As individual country markets got knitted togetehr under the EU single market more efficent supply chains and more choice was avaialbe (similar to that in the USA), This provied a degree of resilence as more supply options became economic in a large integrated market. However Brexit and Covid have both disrupted the efficiency of JIT supply chains, one was deliberate policy on behave of the UK government, it chose to exit the large integrated market of the EU to protect the workforce in a smaller UK market - that was a rational choice, but Covid was unexpected. Unfortunately the politics of Brexit meant that very little planning was put into managing the disruption to supply chains in the UK, the political impasse under Mrs May and then Johnson's choice of pushing for a quick, and hard, Brexit meant time was not made available to put in place new supply chains, resilience, extra storage and facilities etc.

I don't think its fair to blame the NHS's managers for the current state of affairs, the infrastructure was not there for them, and they really did NOT know what kind of supply chain to plan for under Brexit or Covid. These things take time, you need to buy new infrastructure. I do think that politicians and civil servants are culpable, they were warned by the RHA about the effects of both Brexit and Covid and were largely ignored - I remember politicians poo pooing their warnings as 'project fear'. Also shutting down the countries strategic storage facilities of oil and gas (Rough held 5 billion m3 or 25 days supply for the whole country, it was closed in 2017), to save money by the government over the past 10 years, they were made aware of the risks but thought that the new interconnectors to Norway and Holland would give us relicense, it was naive, it overlooked a couple of obvious flaws, i) in a global shortages (such as gas), then nations will look after their own citizens first, that should have bee foreseen. (ii)At the time, policy makers were motivated to get fuel bills down as there was political pressure from Labour about the squeezed middle. In reality food and fuel are comparatively cheap by historical standards, the squeezed middle is due to high housing which is at an all time record. These are failures of public policy not of individual organisations like the NHS.

Once the government had deiced on a hard Brexit, it should have planned to implemented it, which would have meant a delay to restricting free movement of people, a phase down on visas etc to allow time put in place more resilient supply chains, ie trained more HGV drivers, build more storage etc. Put in boarder infrastructure to cope with the extra inspections required by leaving the customers union and single market. Rotterdam did that, once they saw the direction of travel of Brexit, they invested in the infrastructure to cope with what as anticipated under the new trading regime. This shortage were foreseen, but those advocating adjustment and delay over Brexit, were not seen as wise planners but were lumped in with the 'supposedly disloyal remainers'. It was not politically acceptable to warn of problems, even if those warnings were being made by apolitical organisations that understood what needed to change.
Our national newspapers were partly culpable, they made it impossible to distinguish between technocrats trying to prepare for a difficult change with those politically active against Brexit. The two groups got lumped together in the press and so active planning became a political impossibility.

Covid is the other big disrupter, but again its been characterised by continued failures to anticipate and prepare for quite obvious changes. Nearly every move by the government - apart form vaccine role out - has been behind the curve, lockdowns were delayed resulting in a worse situation for the NHS that otherwise would have been, and that led to longer lockdowns, we only have to look over the channel to see how Germany, Italy, Spain and France handled the same issues. We still don't have a Covid task force to co-ordinate activities right across government, led by a senior cabinet minister, it is still left for individual departments to plan and muddle along. There is now talk of re-opening Rough to cope with decarbonisation. It could have been opened a year ago and filled up with cheap oil and gas when the market was making too much - that would have helped the industry adjust to falling demand at the time and helped North Sea companies manage the unusual swings on their businesses. The USA did just that , they topped up their strategic oil reserve when oil was virtually free. We could then draw on this reserve to buffer the current shortage of gas and rising oil prises.

I could go on - What is really important is that we need to pull together as a country and population. 

A lot of the issues right now are beyond the capacity or single organisations to sort out on their own, so we should not be blaming them or the public. We need some co-ordinated action across many sectors to sort the distribution problems out.
What is emerging is, that its government policy is to allow the shortage of EU labour to drive up salaries in labour intensive sectors. This was news to me and I suspect most of the population. Its not an unreasonable policy or goal for post Brexit. But such a huge shift in policy need proper planning. The policy needs to be set out so we understand it and its implications - a proper white paper setting out the goals for wages and supply in different sectors. A plan put in place to manage the change. To achive such a goal will need investment in new capital assets to enable labour productivity to rise, otherwise we will end up with stagflatoin and continued shortages. The UK was an outlier in Europe for using cheap labour in place of productivity investment, we have some of the lowest levels of robotics in the OECD, we have some of the lowest levels of capital deployed in the OECD, so we can make the change by copying good practice in France or Germany. This wont change overnight, it needs a 3 or 5 year plan. We need temporary visas to enable supermarkets and gas stations to be supplied. The NHS and care-homes are desperately short of labour as is the entertainment sector. They need time to adjust, something like a sliding scale of visa restrictions and some help in investing in automation, robotics, etc. We need to re-hire the EU vets that manned our abattoirs etc, and then manage the workforce down in an orderly way as rising salaries attract new workers and industry invests in automation to cope with shortfalls. Its an economic model that works in other countries, France is a good example of generally lower labour levels but with high productivity aided by high levels of capital investment. These things cant be done overnight, as workers need to be trained and upskilled. In effect we deploy UK works into sectors that need labour, such as transport and care-homes, NHS etc and we do that by raising salaries in those sectors. In other sectors such as food production, services and industry, we allow for labour to leave those industries by automating the roles as happens in France and Germany, many jobs can be replaced with machines and re-deploy the freed up labour to areas where people are irreplaceable such as in care, etc. That also needs salaries in those sectors to raise substantially, probably by 30%, again this needs a bit of time to happen otherwise general inflation will lift off and consumers will struggle to pay for the extra costs. I presume that is what government ministers mean when they go on the telly and tell companies to raise wages. The care-sector is publicly funded, so where is the money coming from to raise wages in care-homes? Another hike in tax?

My great worry is that ministers will just talk these changes but not actually roll up their sleeves to implement a plan. We will run from crisis to crises and make no meaningful progress with quite die economic results. Firstly the agricultural and food sector will shrink quite quickly as it wont find the labour to grow, prepare and butcher our food. We will therefore need to import more food. The restaurant and entertainment sectors will suffer in a similar way, it will put up prices and shrink in size. As these big sectors shrink in size so will the UK economy. That will lead to unemployment is certain sectors, but labour shortages in others as the structural issues in the country remain un-addressed. It will also lead to lowering of tax returns to the government, exasperating its already huge problems and may even cause a loss in confidence in our financial control by the city etc, which will then lead to higher interest rates and we will find ourselves in the sort of structural pickle that Italy has been battling for the past 20 years. Its probably at that time that voices will emerge pressing us to re-join the EU.
The irony for this government, is it wont necessarily be because Brexit was a mistake - in their terms, but by botching Brexit, they wont have given it a chance to work. The belated and botched attempts to deal with the economic and structural fall out from COVID is only making things worse.

What can we do. I do think we should pull together and support people during this crisis. Also we may be able to help the government see its way through, there are such real dangers to our economy right now that, in the national interest we should pull together to support those in power to work things through even whatever their political colour, at least if they can see the dangers ahead they may act.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

Glitch said:


> ....
> 
> Automated cars, drones, farming automation, 3D printing, process automation, AI. Its all happening.


It's been happening since the start of the industrial revolution about 250 years ago, or earlier depending on how you rate it. There is nothing new in the principle though there is in the detail of course.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

TominDales said:


> ....
> 
> I could go on - ....


No really? How about a 200 word precis?


----------



## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Luddites were ultimately completely misguided failures. They did not protect jobs. They did not stop automated machinery being introduced to improve efficiency. They were simply disruptive to no good long term effect.
> .....


They highlighted the problem of job loss through rationalised procedures.
That's what they were about and they did it pretty effectively, along with "Captain Swing" on the agricultural front. Not to mention "diggers" , "Levellers" "Chartists" "suffragettes" and others of the merry band who were founders of modern democracy and the welfare state.
It goes a long way back. The peasants were revolting in 1381! A summary of the Peasants' Revolt - The Peasants' Revolt - KS3 History Revision - BBC Bitesize
Maybe they should have just adapted, learned some new skills and got jobs shelf stacking or something. And anyway, didn't they have pensions and savings?


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## TominDales (3 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> No really? How about a 200 word precis?


OK Our leaders blah blah rush about looking busy, meanwhile were doomed.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

TominDales said:


> OK Our leaders blah blah rush about looking busy, meanwhile were doomed.


Exactly!


----------



## GregW (3 Oct 2021)

TominDales said:


> I don't think they could have done anything about it in the timescale given their budgets and lack of resources and infrastructure needed to make this change on any realistic timescale. The fault lies with policy makers ie politicians and very senior civil servants. The government is trying to cope with two huge structural changes, Brexit and Covid, only a national plan can make a difference in on an acceptable time-scale.
> 
> The business model of resilient supplies of fuel and goods that you refer to went out in the 1980s. Up to then most large enterprises valued resilience more than today, and accepted the additional cost it imposed. Supplies weren't as readily available in the past, so most companies kept their own stock. However running services started to become expensive as professionalism and standards rose. Enterprises that had their own fuel supply found that the standard of the tanks started to change, they had to be put it underground and then they had to be bunded and systems put in place to prevent leakages, the expertise required to maintain such systems went beyond the level of the employees and in-house engineering. This happened across to board, ancillary services such as IT, catering, waste management, etc all started to be burdensome, to the point where these services were farmed out to specialist companies. The main OEM (eg car company) or service organisation (eg hospital or ambulance service) instead focused on what they were specialist at. So the NHS and most companies got rid of their fuel depots and used the services of a local supplier that specialised in providing the service. This allowed standards to rise and costs to fall. Many companies did away with storage tanks - they are expensive to maintain and those who supplied the service, saw utilisation of their resource shoot up as efficiencies could be made ( this was a general trend, not just fuel tanks, but for waste management, IT cloud, catering and so on). Stocks require financing through working capital, so reduced stocks in the system allowed organisations to reduce their financing costs. This reduction in cost/waste is at the expense or resilience to supply shocks. For most of the time, its not been an issue, there have been lots of reliable suppliers, plenty of choice was available, so the need for resilience was not an issue. The EU single market accellerated this change. As individual country markets got knitted togetehr under the EU single market more efficent supply chains and more choice was avaialbe (similar to that in the USA), This provied a degree of resilence as more supply options became economic in a large integrated market. However Brexit and Covid have both disrupted the efficiency of JIT supply chains, one was deliberate policy on behave of the UK government, it chose to exit the large integrated market of the EU to protect the workforce in a smaller UK market - that was a rational choice, but Covid was unexpected. Unfortunately the politics of Brexit meant that very little planning was put into managing the disruption to supply chains in the UK, the political impasse under Mrs May and then Johnson's choice of pushing for a quick, and hard, Brexit meant time was not made available to put in place new supply chains, resilience, extra storage and facilities etc.
> 
> ...



Nice story. However I can feel breath of fascists on my neck every time I appear in public in non-trader set of wear… so pulling “together” while 54% of country voted to “stop foreigners stealing jobs” and “endless waves of bloodthirsty refugees of bunga bunga countries” not really looks optimistic solution.
Rather pulling together while we “take back control” and steer the country into dark ages 
I just not even rise my eyebrow again, when I hear “what you still doing here you foreigner”  My respond is simply: “paying a lots of VAT and Income tax, so you can stay on doll, and not suddenly want to steal my foreigner job as UK business owner”


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## GregW (3 Oct 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Luddites were ultimately completely misguided failures. They did not protect jobs. They did not stop automated machinery being introduced to improve efficiency. They were simply disruptive to no good long term effect.
> 
> A better strategy is to embrace change which is largely inevitable. Manufacturing and manual jobs have been replaced with IT, media, services, etc. Only those who failed to evolve have been left without livelihoods.
> 
> The only real issue is the speed of change. Too fast and inevitably some will find it difficult to adapt without appropriate training and support.



That actually is the only one certain law: entropy, unavoidable certainty of change.


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## TominDales (3 Oct 2021)

GregW said:


> Nice story. However I can feel breath of fascists on my neck every time I appear in public in non-trader set of wear… so pulling “together” while 54% of country voted to “stop foreigners stealing jobs” and “endless waves of bloodthirsty refugees of bunga bunga countries” not really looks optimistic solution.
> Rather pulling together while we “take back control” and steer the country into dark ages
> I just not even rise my eyebrow again, when I hear “what you still doing here you foreigner”  My respond is simply: “paying a lots of VAT and Income tax, so you can stay on doll, and not suddenly want to steal my foreigner job as UK business owner”


There was a very ugly side to Brexit, it briefly gave some legitimacy to ugly racism. The Brexit leaders were weak is standing against it, and some encouraged it, they wanted every vote they could get and didn't take a stand in case they lost a few extremists.
There is a huge difference between people legitimately campaigning against being crushed by economic forces of globalism and victimising individual fellow citizens (EU nationals) who are also crushed by the same globalism forces. That ugliness needs stamping out - unfortunately some of our most senior ministers are still playing to that gallery. What is so sad, is the UK had made a lot of progress on this score until recently.


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## Adam W. (3 Oct 2021)

Luckily the EU is large enough to be able to re-absorb all the returning Europeans who became disgruntled and peeved about not being wanted by the country they had legitimately made their home in. Fortunately it is also large enough to absorb the British citizens who also became disgruntled and peeved at their homeland being taken over by a bunch of small minded nationalists and chose to leave too.


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## julianf (3 Oct 2021)

TominDales said:


> There was a very ugly side to Brexit, it briefly gave some legitimacy to ugly racism. The Brexit leaders were weak is standing against it, and some encouraged it, they wanted every vote they could get and didn't take a stand in case they lost a few extremists.
> There is a huge difference between people legitimately campaigning against being crushed by economic forces of globalism and victimising individual fellow citizens (EU nationals) who are also crushed by the same globalism forces. That ugliness needs stamping out - unfortunately some of our most senior ministers are still playing to that gallery. What is so sad, is the UK had made a lot of progress on this score until recently.



Given how close the vote was, remember, it was (arguably, I'm sure) those who you suggest were catered for who, ultimatly, won the vote for leave.


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## Terry - Somerset (3 Oct 2021)

There is a danger of post rationalising Brexit. I do not believe it was anticipated at the time it would expose the very real weaknesses that with hindsight should have been evident:

failures is training - not just HGV drivers but many trades and professions - eg: building, carpenters, bricklayers, hospitality, care workers, nurses, doctors etc
reliance on a largely unregulated market to plan strategically with little regard for the national interest. Instead cost reduction and profitability was the main driver 
Granting new visas to ameliorate pressures now emerging will not initiate change, but perpetuate reliance on cheaper imported skills, inadequate training and poor regulation of markets.

I think we are in for a "bumpy ride " over the next 18 months!.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

TominDales said:


> There was a very ugly side to Brexit, it briefly gave some legitimacy to ugly racism. The Brexit leaders were weak is standing against it, and some encouraged it, they wanted every vote they could get and didn't take a stand in case they lost a few extremists.


Racism and xenophobia were the principle issues, top of the agenda. Still is of course - nothing brief about it. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/03/labour-mp-tulip-siddiq-car-vandalised
not for all brexiters of course - the other main motivation seemed to be a protest vote in general - a plague on all your houses.


> There is a huge difference between people legitimately campaigning against being crushed by economic forces of globalism and victimising individual fellow citizens (EU nationals) who are also crushed by the same globalism forces. ....


Europe crushed by economic forces of globalism? I wouldn't have thought so.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> There is a danger of post rationalising Brexit. I do not believe it was anticipated at the time it would expose the very real weaknesses that with hindsight should have been evident:


It was anticipated and loudly shouted over and over again that we needed the workforce and that immigration is (and always has been) a huge boon to the economy and to society.
The main failing I thought was with the left being too timid and with the Unions failing to protect wages and conditions for the working population _*including*_ immigrants. The Unions too were under the influence of the mealy mouthed nationalism emanating from Farage and his ilk.
PS and of course the tories just exploiting whichever way the political wind seemed to be blowing.


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## GregW (3 Oct 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Luckily the EU is large enough to be able to re-absorb all the returning Europeans who became disgruntled and peeved about not being wanted by the country they had legitimately made their home in. Fortunately it is also large enough to absorb the British citizens who also became disgruntled and peeved at their homeland being taken over by a bunch of small minded nationalists and chose to leave too.



Only until money they saved while working within capitalism start to end in post-socialism like Poland  than they will be calling HMHO how to get late settlement


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## GregW (3 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> It was anticipated and loudly shouted over and over again that we needed the workforce and that immigration is (and always has been) a huge boon to the economy and to society.
> The main failing I thought was with the left being too timid and with the Unions failing to protect wages and conditions for the working population _*including*_ immigrants. The Unions too were under the influence of the mealy mouthed nationalism emanating from Farage and his ilk.
> PS and of course the tories just exploiting whichever way the political wind seemed to be blowing.



Solution :


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## Trainee neophyte (3 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Europe crushed by economic forces of globalism? I wouldn't have thought so.


Europeans are mostly crushed by Germany, which includes German workers interestingly enough.

Edit: I worded that poorly - I mean that german workers have been exploited too (reunification caused wage supression and euro zone entry for Germany at the wrong rate meant that European manufacturing was kneecapped - except in Germany, obviously.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Europeans are mostly crushed by Germany, which includes German workers interestingly enough.


Are you sure? I thought German workers were doing OK with much better wages, pensions than us, that being the reason that very few Germans turn up here to do low paid jobs, as far as I know.
PS and cheaper housing


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

.


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## RobinBHM (3 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Are you sure? I thought German workers were doing OK with much better wages, pensions than us, that being the reason that very few Germans turn up here to do low skill jobs, as far as I know.
> PS and cheaper housing


Yeah but TN lives in Greece so he hates Germans and the EU…..I mean it mustve been Germany’s fault that Greece used to be so awash with corruption nobody paid any taxes.


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## RobinBHM (3 Oct 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> I suspect the Border Agency can tell us very accurately where entrants to the UK have come from as all passports are scanned on arrival.


They might’ve done until UK left Schengen information system and Europol….we might know where they’ve come from not if they are crims


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## TominDales (3 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Europe crushed by economic forces of globalism? I wouldn't have thought so.


The effect of highly efficient manufacturing and destitution is felt everywhere, in Europe, US, UK Asia, I've been in manufacturing for nearly 40 years and seen the relentless pressure to innovate or reduce cost, it was initially felt by exporting industries, but increasingly the service sector suppling exporters feel the downward pressure on costs from across the globe. The amazon effect where global scale in supply will sweep away smaller local enterprises. Most European towns are littered with carcases of old manufacturing assets. Last month I drove to Pisa airport past an old St Goban glass works derelict and decaying. Even in Germany an exporting nation there is this relentless pressure. Because Germany joined the Euro with quite a high exchange rate they faced 6 years of belt tightening from 2000 to 2005/6 when a relentless drive on cost and productivity closed the currency gap, but East Germany has struggled to keep up. Northern Europe, ie Germany, Netherlands and the Nordics have been shielded to some extent by a comparatively weak Euro as its exchange rate is partly offset by southern European economies. But that has left southern Europe really exposed to a productivity and strong currency trap.
One thing that may surprise people is salaries in the EU are quite low, especially after tax. I employed two doctors from Germany as there was a surplus and in Germany and UK salaries for professionals are much higher than in France and Germany.


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## Fitzroy (3 Oct 2021)

John Brown said:


> From what I've read, over the years, there are no more weirdos or perverts about now than there were 50 years ago.



That is my understanding as well. However, it's hard to compare statistics over this long a period for many crimes.

For murder the UK rate has averaged around 1.0 - 1.2 per 100,000 population, even for this very obvious outcome the long term statistics can't be compared as the early date is for Engaland & Wales, and Scotland separate, the most recent data is UK as a whole. In the 70-80s you were nearly twice as likely to be murdered in Scotland. Oh, goodness why did I move here!

For rape the statistics are very hard to compare as during this period reporting is believed to have increased substantially as 'social acceptance' has declined and rape inside marriage became illegal, it wasn't a crime before 1992!

Overall though you are at way higher risk of death from many other things, 30-40 people per 100k die from avoidable injuries for example.

The ease of access to information means we hear about many more crimes than we used to and has in my opinion skewed our perception of the actual risk.

F.


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## Fitzroy (3 Oct 2021)




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## baldkev (3 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Support your local food bank?



Yes i do... ive also fixed a roof leak for them and delivered a 1 year old freezer that a customer wanted to sell ( i was doing a kitchen and there wasnt any spare space for storage, so suggested the food bank and customer agreed to donate it )


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

baldkev said:


> Yes i do... ive also fixed a roof leak for them and delivered a 1 year old freezer that a customer wanted to sell ( i was doing a kitchen and there wasnt any spare space for storage, so suggested the food bank and customer agreed to donate it )


Well done, and more than I've done! But better if these people had higher wages and benefits so they don't end up dependent on charity.


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## Daniel2 (4 Oct 2021)

Simply giving people more money can never be the solution.


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Simply giving people more money can never be the solution.


If the problem is lack of money then it is the solution. Would a diagram help?
What would you give them instead? Careers advice?

The general assumption that poor people don't need more money but better off people do, is very very strange.

Brexit no help either: Food banks warn of smaller parcels due to HGV supply shortages


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## Daniel2 (4 Oct 2021)

Careers advice ? Yes, why not ?
Followed up with some personal finance management lessons,
and finished off with a nice cold shower of managing expectations
and rationalising that sense of entitlement.
.... For starters.


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> What would you give them instead?



I'd find a real dull old socialist, make him give a 40hr week online lecture on the merits of anti capitalism. If you don't work you have to watch it on repeat week in week out. Obviously even the unemployed have to have a break so 4 weeks a year the lecture would be on the merits of linseed oil paint.
That would soon get them back to work and realise that having a bit of dough is quite nice.


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## Daniel2 (4 Oct 2021)




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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Careers advice ? Yes, why not ?
> Followed up with some personal finance management lessons,
> and finished off with a nice cold shower of managing expectations
> and rationalising that sense of entitlement.
> .... For starters.


Good idea. Could distribute estate agent brochures amongst the homeless too. Why has nobody thought of that?


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## flying haggis (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> If the problem is lack of money then it is the solution. Would a diagram help?
> What would you give them instead? Careers advice?
> 
> The general assumption that poor people don't need more money but better off people do, is very very strange.
> ...


And I wonder how many users of food banks REALLY need to be there?? Or is it a case of "if its given away for free then people will come" How many checks are done to ensure the system isnt abused, people turning up in large cars etc.


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

flying haggis said:


> And I wonder how many users of food banks REALLY need to be there?? Or is it a case of "if its given away for free then people will come" How many checks are done to ensure the system isnt abused, people turning up in large cars etc.


Why don't you pop in and have a look - see if you can help with a few more useful suggestions?


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Why don't you pop in and have a look - see if you can help with a few more useful suggestions?



I may pop in and get some potatoes later, is it all just free, or do you have to bring along 6 or seven kids?


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I may pop in and get some potatoes later, is it all just free, or do you have to bring along 6 or seven kids?


Go for it! Are you skint again? While you are there you could ask flying haggis's question to save him having to embarrass himself.


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Go for it! Are you skint again?


Yes, as you know, a director of a company is always penniless.
What do you have to do to prove you are entitled to use food banks?


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes, as you know, a director of a company is always penniless.


Don't companies go bust occasionally?


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Don't companies go bust occasionally?


Yes absolutely. it's tough times at present, hence my post, often sailing very close to the wind in present circumstances. I think you read my post and assumed I was bragging, far from it. Materials up 350%, wages up, deliveries down, stock levels low .......... difficult times.


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## John Brown (4 Oct 2021)

Using a food bank


How to get emergency food from a food bank.




www.citizensadvice.org.uk




I think it's a bit more involved than just rolling up and asking for potatoes.


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

John Brown said:


> Using a food bank
> 
> 
> How to get emergency food from a food bank.
> ...


Don't let that put you off Bobby. I'm sure they have plenty of experience of people suddenly falling on hard times.


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## Droogs (4 Oct 2021)

flying haggis said:


> And I wonder how many users of food banks REALLY need to be there?? Or is it a case of "if its given away for free then people will come" How many checks are done to ensure the system isnt abused, people turning up in large cars etc.


You don't just go willy nilly to take the food. You are given a voucher for each specific visit/delivery appointment you are given by the DWP. You also have to accept what you are given even if you are unable to actually eat most of the cheap/low quality things included. I ended up with 42 tins of the same flavour soup and highly processed tinned food that I am physically unable to digest. In the end I just stopped the deliveries as it would be better for the food to go to someone who could actually eat it.


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Don't let that put you off Bobby. I'm sure they have plenty of experience of people suddenly falling on hard times.


Good to see you so gleeful. Rather stereotypical socialist approach there Jacob, wanting to see people fall to the same level rather than raise people out of it.


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

John Brown said:


> Using a food bank
> 
> 
> How to get emergency food from a food bank.
> ...


Thank you.


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Good to see you so gleeful. Rather stereotypical socialist approach there Jacob, wanting to see people fall to the same level rather than raise people out of it.


Not at all. Glad to know that you would have somewhere to go for potatoes. Also I'm sure they'd lend a sympathetic ear to any other problems you might have.


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not at all. Glad to know that you would have somewhere to go for potatoes. Also I'm sure they'd lend a sympathetic ear to any other problems you might have.



Funny use of the laughing emoji then. If I told you other stuff which had gone wrong last week you'd have fits of giggles.

Anyway, carry on like this and the thread will be closed, politics and all that, so I'll leave you to revel in it.


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## Glitch (4 Oct 2021)

Deleted - someone beat me to it


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes absolutely. it's tough times at present, hence my post, often sailing very close to the wind in present circumstances. I think you read my post and assumed I was bragging, far from it. Materials up 350%, wages up, deliveries down, stock levels low .......... difficult times.


Brexir brexit brexit


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## MikeJhn (4 Oct 2021)

Just returned from France where there are no shortages of anything, makes you wonder, as the land mass is so much bigger than the UK and they can deliver anything within reason?


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## Droogs (4 Oct 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Just returned from France where there are no shortages of anything, makes you wonder, as the land mass is so much bigger than the UK and they can deliver anything within reason?


That's exactly it, all to do with gravity innit. It's so big things spontaniously spring into being right where you need them, just like the big bang.


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Brexir brexit brexit



I'm sure you're blaming everything on Brexit Jacob, good for you, I'm a little bit more open minded. Still you delight in it, I know the misfortune of others tittillates you.

Amazing France has no shortages, just googled and it looks like they have similar worldwide shortages of most stuff. I can't see why France would have access to say semi conductors and the rest of the world hasn't. Even China is running out of stuff, Brexit hey.


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## John Brown (4 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Brexir brexit brexit


I think you meant "Bindi? - Bidet? -Brexit!!


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## ivan (4 Oct 2021)

I started a school exchange in the mid 1950's, and the German lad and I became good friends and kept in touch. By and large, at least until reunification, similar jobs paid much better over there, than here. No one claimed the EU was perfect, but to " exit the large integrated market of the EU to protect the (UK) workforce" was not something I recall seeing on the Brexit Bus (which Private Eye has waiting in a long fuel queue...) Indeed, a global UK that they keep banging on about is a much more fragile vessel than a global EU, which has a bigger internal market than the USA. It's also capable of raising investment on a US scale, which the UK cannot, alone.
Brexiteers are fond of complaining about "remoaners". They should remember that the vote was quite close; it was in no way an overwhelming victory for the brexit brigade. For any chance of pulling together, hard brexiteers will need to relax their stance. Having shot ouselves in the foot once, at present we seem intent on disabling the other.
A covid enquiry will probably be a whitewash, if it ever happens. However it is already clear that those in charge were aware, some years before the outbreak, that we were ill prepared for a pandemic - and did nothing about it. Just compare UK covid death rates with South Korea, for example. 1,000's killed by government ineptitude.
(Edit)
In the UK heyday, late and post industrial revolution, the UK got rich at the expense of the Empire. We bought their raw stuff cheap and sold them back finished goods dear. It paid for the biggest navy in the world, there to keep johnny foreigner in his rightful place. Somone said we had lost an Empire, and were still looking for a role in the world. We don't seem to have found it. It probably lies beyond the next election, so I am not sure anyone is looking for it either,


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## selectortone (4 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I may pop in and get some potatoes later, is it all just free, or do you have to bring along 6 or seven kids?


Don't know if you're joking, but I don't think you can just turn up. I think you have to be referred by social services or similar. I'm not sure because thankfully I haven't yet found myself in that situation.


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## flying haggis (4 Oct 2021)

At least Droogs answered my question sensibly unlike others on here!! I asked as I dont know how it works and have heard of users turning up in BMWs to receive food.


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

flying haggis said:


> At least Droogs answered my question sensibly unlike others on here!! I asked as I dont know how it works and have heard of users turning up in BMWs to receive food.


Thats an apocryphal story that has been going around for years if not generations, with variations: "street beggar seen getting into chauffeur driven Rolls at end of long day" etc etc


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

selectortone said:


> Don't know if you're joking, but I don't think you can just turn up. I think you have to be referred by social services or similar. I'm not sure because thankfully I haven't yet found myself in that situation.


I think Bobby is asking for a friend anyway.


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

I'm afraid I'm heartless, I've been lower than most and know the system quite well.
The systemic abuse of handouts needs to be challenged and not "woked" over.
Give more to those who need it and help them out of it. The people who earn well through the black market but still take handouts need to be challenged.
Anyone who argues that it's just a few abusing the system have their heads up their arrses.


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I'm sure you're blaming everything on Brexit Jacob, good for you, I'm a little bit more open minded. Still you delight in it, I know the misfortune of others tittillates you.
> 
> Amazing France has no shortages, just googled and it looks like they have similar worldwide shortages of most stuff. I can't see why France would have access to say semi conductors and the rest of the world hasn't. Even China is running out of stuff, Brexit hey.


There are all sorts of global probs too but Brexit just makes them worse for UK. It's at times like these that a big cooperative like the EU can come into its own and use the united power of 27 states.
Or do you still think Brexit is a great success and we will beat the world?


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## doctor Bob (4 Oct 2021)

I think the whole world has problems, you haven't seen anything yet, tip of the iceberg so far, worldwide mega issues.
See where we all are in a few years.
I'm not responding anymore, keep it in your hobby locked nutters forum. Plenty of people in there to fall out with and troll.
I am too busy to play your games Jacob.
I don't wish to be part of locking the thread.


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## John Brown (4 Oct 2021)

flying haggis said:


> At least Droogs answered my question sensibly unlike others on here!! I asked as I dont know how it works and have heard of users turning up in BMWs to receive food.


I think you'll find that I responded sensibly, with a link to a site that you could have easily found for yourself, if you weren't so busy demonising those whom you consider to be freeloaders.
I contribute to food banks(I'm sure I'll be accused of "virtue signalling", but my wife forces me to do it), but I think it's a disgusting state of affairs that we even need food banks that are filled by volunteers. 
But none of this has anything to do with the HGV driver shortage.


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