# Do I need a Planer/Thicknesser



## Bassbear81 (5 Jan 2009)

Im thinking about getting a P/T, but I really need to convince the wife that i need one.

I was wondering how much more is finished wood compared to sawn, ie how much money will I save?


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## Chems (5 Jan 2009)

There was a great thread about this a little while back. Just do a search in this forum and it will come up. 

Found it, I was the asker:

Price of Wood vs Price of Thicknesser Planer


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## Bassbear81 (5 Jan 2009)

Cheers, How do you find the axminster, 

Does anyone else have any recomendations?


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## woodbloke (5 Jan 2009)

It's not just about the money you can save (sawn vs planed) it's also about the amount of sheer hard work and time that's saved as well. I agree that you'll save some money buying sawn timber but that's not the real issue. If I was starting a largish project and had to spend several weeks (say) planing all the material by hand, it would really put me off :evil: in a big way. Once you've owned and used a p/t you'll never go back to planing timber by hand, apart from the initial skim (to remove planer marks) prior to marking out - Rob


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## Benchwayze (5 Jan 2009)

Hi BB, 

I have to agree with Rob.

It is worth the investment, but buy a model with at least three blades. The more blades the better the finish; but you know that!

Just buy the best you can afford. I can't comment on Axminster's models, but I never had a bad bit of kit from them yet. So I would be happy to take one of theirs at face value. 

For initial preparation, once you finish thicknessing, no matter how well set and sharp your planer blades are, you will need some handplaning to remove the tell-tale ripples left by the machine. To repeat Rob's words, you'll never go back to prepping by hand (Except maybe for the smaller jobs you want to make a fuss over!) and you'll never *need* to buy planed-all-round timber again. (Besids a lot of it isn't square, especially the Friday afternoon lots! )

Treat yourself if you can.


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## custard (5 Jan 2009)

As others have pointed out, it's not just about the money saved.

1. You can plane to precise and specific dimensions. Once you have this facility you'll be surprised at how often you prefer 5/8" thick for a particular job rather than 3/4"!

2. You can prepare hard to buy dimensions, like 3/16" thick drawer bottoms.

3. You can dimension just before jointing and assembly, thereby ensuring the materials remain square and straight. Alternatively you can dimension in stages to allow the timber to release stresses more evenly.

4. You can achieve a better quality of finish than almost all commercially planed timber, and you can set up your machine for specific jobs (ie "back honing" the blades for difficult grain-see David Charlesworth).

However, a lot of this depends on accurate blade setting and a decent quality machine that delivers consistent results. Many woodworkers say setting planer blades is the worst job in the workshop, and put it off or bodge it, so the results are worse than buying commercially planed stock. I've also seen a few machines that simply didn't thickness flat across a wide board, or had distorted planing tables.

Personally I'd question the wisdom of rushing in to buy a low priced new machine, you might be better off saving up for a bit longer and getting a better quality second hand machine with a tersa block. Unfortunately I've a gloomy feeling that the current recession will result in quite a lot of good machinery becoming available.


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## yetloh (5 Jan 2009)

I agree with all of that.

The point about using smaller thicknesses is often neglected. One of the reasons many of the projects covered in the beginners magazines look so clunky is that they usually use standard thicknesses which are often too heavy. I am sure you will never regret buying a planer thicknesser.

The point about buying a machine with three knives (in the earlier thread) is debatable. Finish is a function of feed rate and cutter block rotation speed as well as the number of knives. I have the Moretens which is quite pricey at around £2k but it only has two knives. The finish is fine because it has a high rotation speed. Its real unique selling point and the reason I bought it is that there is no conversion process between planing and thicknessing which is a real joy after using other machines.

Jim


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## ByronBlack (5 Jan 2009)

easiest answer is; if you are asking the question. The yes, you do need one. The machine will pay for it self in a few projects. It's not just money your saving, it's time, hassle and heartache.


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## wizer (5 Jan 2009)

yes, yes, yes (as meg ryan once said)

P/T my most used machine. Getting timber the dimensions I need it without using my feeble muscles makes a P/T the bes thing I ever bought.

I iz layzee


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## The_Stig (5 Jan 2009)

The 24" Robinson at work makes a nice job of reducing things to thickness although I've been thinking about getting one for myself. I was having a look at the DeWalt one thats Axminster are selling, I'd prefer to have something with re-sharpenable knives as I know a saw doctor who'd sort the sharpening for me.


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## wizer (5 Jan 2009)

wasn't there a DW733 fore sale on here in the last few days?

Remember you need to joint/plane as well as thickness


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## The_Stig (5 Jan 2009)

Was this the thread Wizer?

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... ight=dw733


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## wizer (5 Jan 2009)

yeh. it's a good machine


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## Mr Ed (5 Jan 2009)

Mostly everything relevant has already been said by others, but here's my 2 cents;

The big benefit of having a planer thicknesser is not so much in the money it may save (though it will save a certain amount) but in the flexibility it will give you. It will take your woodworking onto another level when you can accurately and easily prepare material of any thickness, instead of using it at the thickness it is. You will find you can move on from slabby looking pieces where everything is either 1" or 2" thick and make the elements the thickness that looks and performs right.

I would also make the observation that material I bought PAR to my specified sizes from timber yards (prior to owning a P/T) was invariably out of square and torn out or ridged. If you do it yourself you can do it right - the lad in the timber yard probably doesn't care about it in the way you do.

So yes, you do need one.

Cheers, Ed


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## Bassbear81 (5 Jan 2009)

Thanks, Im sold, 

That combi machine looks a bit big, (ive just got a single garage).

Anyone got any model recomendations? Iwas thinking of about £400 or do I need to spend more?


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## MikeG. (5 Jan 2009)

Here comes my standard reply to most machinery questions......

...........don't forget that there are some great second hand machines out there at really fantastic prices.

I am a big fan of older machines, because you get an awful lot of cast-iron for your money, and they tend to be built like tanks. Some will need a bit of tiffling, but cleaning up an old machine is a great way of learning what makes it tick, and gives you a good sense of what it will be capable of. My PT cost me £85, plus a new belt and a spare set of blades, and it is just excellent. My bandsaw cost £150 plus 2 new bearings (<£5.00). I really don't think I would consider a new machine......and then the discussion with your wife would be so much shorter!!!

Mike


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## Tierney (5 Jan 2009)

The only thing you need to know is:

more tools equals more happinerss

I'm sure timber yards vary; but, I have never had any success with PAR boards. The boards were either warped/cupped/twisted in someway or had serrated markings in them.

I've tried dimensioning timber by hand and it takes forever.

David


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## Chems (5 Jan 2009)

In hindsight, I'd really save up for one of the Jet Combi machines like Wizer has got. But at £900 its expensive for sure. 

I have at the moment a CT150 I picked up for £150 off ebay after selling my Axminster combination machine. Loved the machine but hated switching modes.


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## MikeG. (5 Jan 2009)

Tierney":3og8bvxm said:


> The only thing you need to know is:
> more tools equals more happinerss
> David



No, no, no, no, no!!!!!! Wrong......wrong, wrong, couldn't be wronger!!!!  

Replace "tools" with "skills" or "experience" or "wood" and I'm with you, but not tools......Keep it simple, and get good at using what you've got.

Possessions= happiness is a particularly insidious way to drive yourself mad.

Mike


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## wizer (5 Jan 2009)

Mike thinks he's right, but we all know he ain't :lol:


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## MikeG. (5 Jan 2009)

Mike *knows* he's right


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## Bassbear81 (6 Jan 2009)

What Rotation speed would be considered fast?


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## woodbloke (6 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":yvq8azz1 said:


> Mike *knows* he's right


Mike only *thinks* he's right. I used to be like Mike, minimalist. That was before I became a member of this forum...*and* got to know Waka and Philly :lol: - Rob


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## wizer (6 Jan 2009)

Even Mike's admitted to buying another plane since joining these forums. He's got good anti-slip shoes, but we'll get him down that slope. You just see


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## MikeG. (6 Jan 2009)

Good luck!!!

................and BTW, I got my last plane, a brazed-up second hand block-plane for a fiver, about 3 or 4 years ago. I have the strongest anti-slip/ slope shoes you could imagine!! I like wood, not steel   

Mike


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## Derek Willis. (6 Jan 2009)

The playground may have changed, but, the words are just the same.
Derek.


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## Doug B (6 Jan 2009)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## dicktimber (6 Jan 2009)

Good subject!

IMO
Combie machines.......as dad always said, 'Jack of all trades, Master of non'

I have used the kity for about 5 years now, purchased because at the time I had a small garage workshop, and it was always being given good reviews in woodie mags.
Although it only m/c 8 inches wide it makes a wonderful tool for a small shop.
With wheels ftited it pushes out of the way and takes up little space.
I have looked at and keep considering larger capacity m/c. but there are advantages, for small machines.
When making large boards you have the advantage that smaller sections joined together with alternating growth rings will give a more stable platform, than just a couple of thick pieces making up the same width.
Another point is to look at the way you work. Are you a purist woodworker? . Are you going to make production/ repetative parts? 
Whichever way you decide to go just remember, all machines have their limitations...It's sods law if you buy one, the first job your wife gives you will not fit the spec of the machine you bought!!!!
Good luck, whichever way you go!¬
Mike


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## Tierney (6 Jan 2009)

The slope is indeed slippery. I find it is the 'add ons' that are the hidden costs that accelerate your descent - e.g. straightedges, engineers squares, calipers etc. when all you want is to buy some well prepared stock to do some mortise and tenons.

To sort of agree with Mike, I still have a cheapo set of chisels because I don't feel that my skill level has surpassed.

David


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## MikeG. (6 Jan 2009)

Tierney":3ga9j88w said:


> To sort of agree with Mike......
> David



Rarely can Essex have produced 2 such sensible voices in a world otherwise going ever-so-slightly-mad!!!

You guys know you don't *need* that eleventh plane!

Mike

Whereabouts are you, David?


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## Tom K (6 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":2xfh8snn said:


> Tierney":2xfh8snn said:
> 
> 
> > To sort of agree with Mike......
> ...



Ha Ha eleven...I mean with E Bay so accessible and all those online retailers :lol:


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## BradNaylor (7 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":1j38im3l said:


> Here comes my standard reply to most machinery questions......
> 
> ...........don't forget that there are some great second hand machines out there at really fantastic prices.
> 
> ...



I agree entirely with Mike.

I regularly pop in and chat with maybe a dozen different pro cabinet makers and joiners in my area, and I have never seen a new machine in any of their workshops. Most use machines which are at least 30 years old.

£400 will get you a nice lump of cast iron on ebay. You might even get something single phase.

Be careful with dealers, though. They tend to give the same machine a 1/2 hour clean up and charge twice the price.

There are also going to an awful lot of liquidation auctions in the next couple of years.

Dan


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## wizer (7 Jan 2009)

I agree, but in my defence as well as useless and practically disabled, I'm lazy. I decided against 2nd hand machinery because don't have the time, inclination or confidence to restore and fettle and old lump of CI. I salute those who can, honestly.


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## woodbloke (7 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":kk8nbk71 said:


> Tierney":kk8nbk71 said:
> 
> 
> > To sort of agree with Mike......
> ...


...it's not the 11th plane you gota worry about  it's everything that comes after - Rob


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## MickCheese (7 Jan 2009)

Re the PT.

How does the Fox one for £169.95 on the Rutlands site look? I like the price and it will plane a max width of 8".

I have no experience with it but it is cheap, does that make it rubbish? I don't know.

Mick


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## wizer (7 Jan 2009)

Mike, I do rib you, but I actually agree that you probably don't _need _eleven planes. But I really don't think having _one _makes life particularly _easy_. Surely a block plane is a very useful thing to have, almost essential? I use my fettled Stanley all the time. Then it's often said one can do everything with a plane somewhere between 4-5. Fine but a shoulder plane is _useful_, no? I like to work with curves (don't we all?) and so my spokes are essential, to me. There are probably others that are useful but not essential and then there are those that are probably pointless but are beautiful/desirable (to some).

Maybe those who own eleven planes should make a WIP project showing the use of eleven planes ? 

We've said before, for some of us, _c*llecting_ planes is part of the _hobby_.


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## miles_hot (7 Jan 2009)

I too will one day buy a planer and thicknesser (poss separate if I can find room in the design) and like the idea of buying second hand (cheaper and some how feels better) however I am rather put off by ignorance. I have no idea what to look for in a name or spec where as with more modern stuff I can look on the net for reviews and do price comparisons to see if I am in danger of being ripped off etc.

What should I be looking for when buying older machines? Any names which are must avoid items or conversely ideal? I've already picked up that more knives is good but what is a "fast" rotation speed compared to normal?

Thanks in advance!

Miles
PS Will be 1 phase not three at the moment.


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## OPJ (7 Jan 2009)

Important things to look for include the capacities of the machines and you also want to look out for what is there and what might be missing - eg. side fence and bridge guard. A lot of the older stuff on eBay does tend to be three phase... You can still convert these machines to single phase (I'm not expert!) but you'll have to buy a new motor and probably mess around with the electrics a bit.

Depending on the power and size of motor required, you may have to consider installing a 16amp supply, if you don't already have one.

If you can get to look inside the machine, you'll want to check all the pulleys, belts and chains are still in tact and lubricated - otherwise, the machine may not work! Outfeed rollers can sometimes be knackered on older thicknessers - not sure how expensive they are to replace but, as with any old machine no longer in production, spare parts may not always be easy to source...

I can't remember the speed at which the average cutter block rotates (number of knives is more important - more equals a better finish!) but, the slower the feed rate, the better the quality of finish.


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## MikeG. (7 Jan 2009)

Tom,

I often rib you too.........I hope no-one thinks we fall out over these things!!!!!

I have 2 planes.........a 4-1/2 jack plane (I believe) and a small Stanley block plane (for the last couple of years). I have a couple of spokeshaves as well. Occasionally, my stock preparation would have been aided by a longer plane, but you get over it. I have only had a PT for a couple of years, so managed for nearly 30 years with just the one plane. 

As for a shoulder plane.........well, if I had one I would find uses for it. In the interim I have developed reasonable paring skills with a 1-1/2" or 2" chisel. Thousands of m&t joints for practice over the years lead to a reasonable job.........

I've seen guys in India and Africa who do excellent job using little more than sharpened screwdrivers and a large hand-saw. No bench.......often holding their workpiece with their feet as they sit on the ground. They have skills that you and I only dream of.......and, to be serious for a minute, it is skills rather than tools that are important to me. Indeed, I reckon there is the danger of an inverse relationship between tool ownership and skills. If you have a specialist tool for every task, ultimately isn't there a danger that the only skill you bring to a project is design, marking out, and timber selection?

That was "thought for the day" by the Very Irreverent Mike Garnham.......


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## wizer (7 Jan 2009)

Point Taken

I saw a TV show the other day, filmed in India, where 8 workers were using any scrap of metal, old saw, coke can, etc to scrape the paint off a car, ready to be re-painted. The end result was surprisingly professional looking.


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## ByronBlack (8 Jan 2009)

I disagree on some of the points made. I believe that the ownership of tools directly correlates to time. For example; if time wasn't an issue, I could quite easily prepare all my timber with handplanes, I have the skills (to a degree) and the inclination (most times), just not the time. If i'm building a piece, I don't want it to take 3 months to complete it, therefore to get the item completed to a good level of quality and in a reasonable time, I need the correct tools for the correct job.

Now, this ties in with the OP. Stock preperation is probably the most tedious and time consuming task. No one will look at your finished piece and admire the preperation. No one will care that it took you months to dimension each board with a handplane. What they will care about is the quality of the workmanship, the quality of the joints and the finish. Stock preperation is such a donkey task that I personally don't want to spend the time doing it (apart from smaller projects, I currently do use handplaces a lot for guitars).

IMO the quality and craftmanship should go into the joinery, design and finish, the initial prep of the wood although important shouldn't be something that has to be a struggle time consuming task. Just because Africans have the skill to it on the floor with their feet and a toothpick/screwdriver/whatever, doesn't mean that's how we should all do it.

The definition of our entire race and it's development is due to the creation and use of tools (and opposable thumbs), that is where our skill lies - tool making and application, not nessacarily carving an Ark out of oak tree's with a swiss-army knife.


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## Tom K (8 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":1jy70te1 said:


> I've seen guys in India and Africa who do excellent job using little more than sharpened screwdrivers and a large hand-saw. No bench.......often holding their workpiece with their feet as they sit on the ground. They have skills that you and I only dream of........



Where can we see this wonderful workmanship Mike? I have seen pieces from India and Mr Maskerry has some video from Sierra Leone but it is all very rough hewn stuff that I wouldn't give house room.
I am always puzzled by the attitude difference between us Europeans/Westerners and these inhabitants of the "Third World" 
In so many ways they appear apathetic towards improving their lot.
Why when surrounded by raw material would you work wood clamped between your feet?


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## pinkyinboro (8 Jan 2009)

*BUY BUY BUY!!*


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## MikeG. (8 Jan 2009)

Because they are too poor to own any land at all, or rent a workshop........so do what they can sitting on the pavement working with other people's discarded scraps of wood and using a discarded tool found in a bin......or with a bit of broken glass.

As for quality work.......go to say Jaipur or Jodphur and have a look at woodwork beyond your wildest dreams. It is everywhere. Stunning architectural woodwork, amazing furniture of the very highest order, and even the tourist "tat" is work beyond your skills and mine.

Or go to any coastal city in India and watch them build boats.

Or go to any one of the multitude of furniture workshops in South Africa......
.......or watch a traditional doormaker at work in Fez or Marrakech. You'll think that £3000 is cheap when you see the craftwork........inlaid bonework within the door can take 6 moths per door!

Stop by the side of the road in Zimbabwe and watch a co-operative at work making statues, pots, animals.......

Thinking that these people aren't trying to improve themselves is an enormous mis-reading. They clamour to get themselves educated. They work all hours in terrible conditions trying not to have go back to subsistence farming. They even smile as they are doing it.......

So, if you were a 14 year old lad in Ouagadougou whose parents had both died of aids and you were responsible for bringing up your 4 siblings (youngest 3 years old).....and you had no access to healthcare, and school means having to have enough money to buy a uniform.........if someone said you could earn enough money to buy enough rice for one meal a day by carving something out of a scrap of wood with a sharpened screwdriver, you would probably also find yourself sitting on a pavement with a piece of wood between your feet......

Do stop me when I start to bore you.....

Mike


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## MikeG. (8 Jan 2009)

Apologies, Tommo....that was more of a rant than I intended! I just happen to think quite a lot of those people and places....

Mike


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## Tom K (8 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":2txc4v00 said:


> Apologies, Tommo....that was more of a rant than I intended! I just happen to think quite a lot of those people and places....
> 
> Mike



Thats O.K Mike everyone is entitled to an opinion.
However the high status work wasn't done by street urchins using a rusty nail and a broken bottle. I do recognize craftsmanship when I see it but you will never convince me that roughly made tourist tat is special because it was made using makeshift tools.

With regard to the boatbuilders are they doing anything particularly better than say the Vikings were building a thousand years ago in Europe? 

To some extent you did get hold of the wrong end of the stick. Take the chaps Steve filmed in Sierra Leone trying to build furniture with woefully inadequate tools. Go back in five years what will have changed?
They will have a different small boy acting as a vice and one of them will be minus a thumb.

Bit of Editing @1.22


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## miles_hot (8 Jan 2009)

Mike Garnham":12vwgj34 said:


> ...inlaid bonework within the door can take 6 *moths* per door!
> ....
> 
> Mike



Ah ha, now I see where we're all going wrong - it's not the tools, it's the wrong sort of bloody insects


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