# Oak kitchen makeover



## Karl (9 Feb 2010)

Hi all

I've had to drop work on my own house to get back to earning some pennies :wink: So I thought i'd run through this job with you from start to finish.

I did a job last year for a customer (replacement worktops) and got this referral from that job. Basically the customer has a Magnet kitchen which was installed 18 years ago. The units are in surprisingly good nick, but the doors are looking (seriously) dated. So they wanted some new doors making, replacement cornice, worktops etc. 

I will be replacing 7 of the units with Oak veneered jobbies, so got to work today in making a start on the cutting, lipping and joining







The lipping was trimmed using a router - a tip I picked up from working at Brad's place in January. Gives excellent results:






So tomorrow is a day of more sizing, lipping and joining. I've got a 6mm cutterblock coming which I will use to cut the rebates for the back panels. I'm hoping to get all the units built, ready for lacquering over the weekend (i've got another job Thursday/Friday).

Cheers

Karl


----------



## mailee (9 Feb 2010)

Keep us posted Karl. (Brad's trick works well dunnit)


----------



## pren (9 Feb 2010)

Hi, I'm going to be following this one closely as I'm due to be making a kitchen from oak veneerd MDF in the near future. 

Can I ask where you got the 1/4 cut veneer sheets from? I've only been able to find crown cut near me for £36 per 8x4, 18mm sheet and the client has specified 1/4 cut.

Also, what Laquer are you intending to use?


----------



## Karl (10 Feb 2010)

Bryn - I am using the Chestnut range of cellulose sealer and melamime lacquer. It dries in about 5 mins, so is great for this type of project. You need to work fast though! But with a bit of practise you can get great results. 

Here is the kit I use. 1 coat of sealer and 2 of lacquer. The webrax sanding pad is 320g and used for de-nibbing after each coat.






Here's side by side of a lacquered and non-lacquered panel






The panels are crown cut 18mm, and are from a local supplier. About £40 per sheet, IIRC.

Little bit of progress today (had to do the school run, so didn't get as many hours in as I would have liked). Managed to get the panels for the 2 base units lipped 






And the panels for another 3 wall units lipped and sized






My job scheduled for tomorrow and Friday has been moved to next week, so i'll be carrying on with this over the next few days.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## LarryS. (10 Feb 2010)

Karl,

How thick is the lipping you use ? 

And when you say you use a router to trip I'm assuming you mean by using a bearing guided flush cut bit ?

Got a mate who wants something similar building so will be watching all this very closely !


----------



## Karl (10 Feb 2010)

Hi Paul

I hope the pics speak for themselves - if not, just ask





















Cheers

Karl


----------



## LarryS. (10 Feb 2010)

sorry Karl, don't quite get it, are you trimming the lipping using the bottom of the router bit ? or the side

and how thick is the lipping you're using


----------



## Karl (10 Feb 2010)

Use the bottom of the router bit to trim the lipping flush with the MDF.

The lipping is 12mm thick, and oversized at 22mm.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## LarryS. (10 Feb 2010)

thanks karl, so you mean you are using the temprary mdf base to form a flat surface that can run on the veneered wood. 

Then the router bit is set to run at the depth of the mdf so when you push the router to the edge the mdf / bit alignment ensures that the bit then trims the lipping. 

I'm assuming you don't trim the lipping right down to the bone for fear of going through the veneer so leave the lip a bit proud and then sand to completion ?


----------



## Karl (10 Feb 2010)

That's it Paul. So the cutting is being done by both the side and bottom of the cutter (not just the bottom as I said earlier).

I have been taking it "right to the bone". As long as you've got a good plung-lock on the router, and do a test cut first, you shouldn't have any problems. On all the pieces i've lipped today/yesterday (32) I haven't left the slightest router mark on the veneer, and the lipping has only needed a light rub over with a piece of 180g sandpaper to smooth it off. 

Cheers

Karl


----------



## LarryS. (10 Feb 2010)

brilliant karl, thanks for all the info will help me out when I get round to starting the project


----------



## wizer (10 Feb 2010)

Karl":3igizing said:


> The webrax sanding pad is 320g



What colour is it? I can't work out if it's grey or red. The grey is 1200g


----------



## Karl (10 Feb 2010)

Maroon. I'm going to get some of the Grey ones for polishing in wax. 

Cheers

Karl


----------



## wizer (10 Feb 2010)

Correct  I always forget what grit the other colours are. When I bought them I thought they were all very fine.


----------



## oddsocks (11 Feb 2010)

Karl,
Did you just glue the lipping on or use biscuits as well? I've got a similar project on the go (corner unit etc in another thread)around 18mm lipped MDF. I planed the lipping to 19.5mm (the MDF with veneer is 19mm in my case) and 20mm deep, used the BJ to accurately align one edge then planed the other one to remove the final 0.5mm (it only takes a few seconds and with a sharp plane is easy).

I have finished mine with 3 coats of Ronseal diamond hard satin floor varnish - brushed on with good purdey brush and touch dry in 30 mins. This has given an excellent finish.


.....Mind you it took me three weekends to get all my lipping done - not the few days it took you, but that was mainly due to lack of clamps and gluing time.

Dave


----------



## Karl (11 Feb 2010)

Hi Dave

No biscuits on the lippings - the glue joint is strong enough on its own. 

Do you mean 30 mins (rather than 3) dry time for the Ronseal stuff? I had a look at that a while back, and thought that 30 mins open time was too long to allow "stuff" to settle on the finish.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

Karl":1zujox2g said:


> The lipping is 12mm thick, and oversized at 22mm.



Sorry, I'm confuzzled. What thickness is the veneered board? and how much thicker is the lipping? and how do you clamp it? Do you use a spacer so you have excess on both sides of the lip?

I tried the Tovey Trimmer and it didn't go well. It might have been the bit I was using wasn't suitable.


----------



## Karl (11 Feb 2010)

Tom - the lipping is 12mm thick and 21mm high/deep/whatever. The board is 18mm. It looks like this











I don't use any spacers, just sash clamps, f clamps or whatever other clamps I have knocking around. Just make sure that there is excess stock either side of the board before applying final clamping pressure. I was going to order some of these from Screwfix, but they were out of stock.






What problems did you have with the trimming when you tried it? It's the first time i've tried it out (in my own 'shop at any rate) and it has been easy peasy.

No further progress on the project today - been busy sorting out another little "toy" which I pick up tomorrow :wink: 

I'm going to add a running total at the end of each post so that peeps can see how long this has taken. This may help out others planning to do similair jobs (although i'm not the fastest worker, as Brad will attest!!).

Tuesdays post - 7 hours
Wednesdays post - 6 hours
Total to date - 13 hours.

HTH

Cheers

Karl


----------



## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

I was probably just rushing as usual Karl  Makes sense now, thanks mate.


----------



## pren (11 Feb 2010)

Thanks for answering my questions re: boards and finishes earlier, Karl. I though crown cut would have looked more ..... wiggly than the boards you're using. An 'uncluttered look' is whats needed, so crown cut MDF might be ok.

Just wondering; would an iron-on edging tape be a suitable alternative to the oak lipping? Obviously the oak will be more hardwearing but is the iron on stuff a total nono for applications such as kitchen cabinets? I'd imagine it would be cheaper and quicker?


----------



## jedmc571 (11 Feb 2010)

Karl":24kxyqi3 said:


> No further progress on the project today - been busy sorting out another little "toy" which I pick up tomorrow :wink:
> 
> 
> Karl



Now what have you bought :shock: 

Your as bad as me :lol: I bought that surface planer from Axi last week just because I'd used the thicknesser the night before, and it needed a friend :lol: 

The doors look mint, looks like I'll be round for a masterclass :wink: 

What's the difference between Webrax, and Scotchbrite ?

Cheers

Jed


----------



## Karl (11 Feb 2010)

Bryn - I wouldn't use the iron on tape. I've tried it before, and it looks good once on, but it is a PITA to get stuck on. Nowhere near as the iron on melamime tape you use for MFC.

Jed - you'll have to wait for the pics of the new toy tomorrow. Let's just say that it won't fit in the car and has to be towed back :wink: 

Those boards are the panels for the replacement cupboards, not doors. The doors will be a shaker style with a little detail round the edge. I'll be starting on the doors next week.

Don't know what the difference is with the scotchbrite - i've never used it. 

Cheers

Karl


----------



## jedmc571 (11 Feb 2010)

You've bought a horse :shock:


----------



## Karl (12 Feb 2010)

Close, but no cigar Jed.........

















That's the summer holidays sorted for this year!

More progress on the kitchen project tomorrow.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Mr Ed (12 Feb 2010)

When I've done this in the past I've held the lipping in place with a few 18g brads while the glue goes off. The holes are so small that filled with suitably coloured wax you can't see them. Means you can trim straight away.

I also prefer to make the lipping a much closer fit and trim with a plane, rather than the router.
Ed


----------



## jedmc571 (12 Feb 2010)

Holy dung :shock: 

I thought you'd bought an old cast table saw for some reason :lol: 

How cool are you for half term with your kids 8) they can practise next week in the garden.

Cheers

Jed


----------



## Karl (12 Feb 2010)

Tell me about it - we've got to have a sleep over tomorrow night - can't wait!


----------



## oddsocks (12 Feb 2010)

Karl":31iybyli said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> No biscuits on the lippings - the glue joint is strong enough on its own.
> 
> ...


yes - I've gone back and edited it to 30mins. I did my coating in the dining room so nice and warm and no dust settled at all. It was actually touch dry in about 15mins. After two coats I denibbed (being water based it raised the grain) with 240grit abranet (used my new pad and hose and it is excellent - far quicker than any power sander I have). I then applied a 3rd coat and tomorrow will cut back with grey webrax fitted to the abranet pad.


I did do a test piece with ronseal, cellulose sealer, melamine and pale french polish and the ronseal finish (each after two coats and then grey webraxed) was the lightest and most even.

I chose to use biscuits on my lipping and they were 20mm deep as they will be taking door hinges. On the remaining ones which are just shelves I'll try your method and the router jig for trimming.

Dave


----------



## BradNaylor (13 Feb 2010)

Nice lipping technique, Karl; just like mine! :lol: 

Nice trick with the router, Karl; just like mine! :lol: 

Nice trailer tent, Karl; JUST LIKE MINE!! :shock: 


:lol:


----------



## Petiegolfer (16 Feb 2010)

Karl

Yikes when you buy trailer tents do they come with children?? Do you have to have them or are they an option?? :shock:  

Having three I would hate to buy a trailer tent and end up with four more!!  

Piers


----------



## matt (16 Feb 2010)

How you supposed to get soaked putting up a trailer tent? Surely it's supposed to take you about half a day like my tent does? 

Petiegolfer - trailer tents don't come with kids. It's like losing coins down the back of the sofa. You wonder where they've been since the last holiday and always find them in the last place you look.

Lipping... I find a shortage of clamps the problem with lipping. I've started using a scrap length of wood thin enough to flex whilst still applying some decent pressure. Place a small block of wood against the lipping (once positioned on the MDF etc) and then the length of scrap timber, then clamp the scrap timber down to the lipping either side of the block. Effectively you get three clamping points using just two clamps. You can repeat this along the length using approximately 50% of the clamps.


----------



## Karl (16 Feb 2010)

Petiegolfer":3vb8as2z said:


> Karl
> 
> Yikes when you buy trailer tents do they come with children?? Do you have to have them or are they an option?? :shock:
> 
> ...



Children optional, but once they're here, they're here to stay :lol:


----------



## Karl (19 Feb 2010)

Got my 6mm grooving cutter for the spindle moulder, and had an hour to spare this afternoon so decided to get the grooves cut in all the top, bottom and side panels to receive the back panels.

I've never used a spindle moulder before this year and I took advantage of Brad's offer to show me some basic usage. I also bought a DVD from Axminster, which was very instructional, but made me laugh as the presenter was an old timer (and the DVD was made in 1989!) and he kept on referring to the "Cockpit Drill" of the safety checks to go through before pressing start on the machine. It was funny, but it stuck with me. 

Anyway, the grooving cutter was installed and the spindle set at the correct height. I then attached a couple of MDF fences to the ali fences, and the attached a sacrificial piece of 6mm MDF.








The fence locking mechanisms are then released and the machine started up. The whole fence arrangement is then slid back onto the rotating blade. The cutter cuts through the sacrificial fence and the machine turned off when the correct cutting depth is achieved - in this case 6mm. 











All the panels were then run over the blade, resulting in a nice clean groove and a tight fitting panel.
















Tomorrow i'm going to size up all back panels and start on the finishing.

Another hour today brings total project time to date to 14 hours.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## OPJ (19 Feb 2010)

Karl":b8v9ele8 said:


> GI also bought a DVD from Axminster, which was very instructional, but made me laugh as the presenter was an old timer (and the DVD was made in 1989!) and he kept on referring to the "Cockpit Drill" of the safety checks to go through before pressing start on the machine. It was funny, but it stuck with me.



That sounds like good old Roy Sutton! I bought that same disc just over three-years ago and know exactly what you mean!


----------



## trousers (19 Feb 2010)

Yes it's a good video imo for starters to the spindle.

I reckon he talks a lot of sense as well - he's still got all his digits even if his eyesight is obviously less than 20/20 :lol:


----------



## Karl (19 Feb 2010)

trousers":362xve57 said:


> he's still got all his digits even if his eyesight is obviously less than 20/20 :lol:



Not quite - he's missing half a finger on his left hand!

Cheers

Karl


----------



## trousers (19 Feb 2010)

Sorry chaps - I've watched it a few times and never noticed that!
It's me who's vision is less than 20/20 obviously :roll:


----------



## Karl (20 Feb 2010)

Forgot to post a picture of the cutter guarding. It is a guard I use for the t/s when using an unguarded blade, and is simply clamped to the table. The normal guarding cannot be used as the boards are too large. 






Cheers

Karl


----------



## wizer (20 Feb 2010)

I do like the look of a spindle moulder. Very tempting. But I'm guessing I wouldn't get enough use out of it to make it viable.

I like the guard. Similar SM's


----------



## Karl (20 Feb 2010)

Tom - I got the idea from watching Steve M's DVD. I did mean to acknowledge that in my post about the guard. 

I've not had it long, but I reckon the spindle moulder is one of those tools which (in a hobby shop) wouldn't get used all the time, but when it is used, you will wonder how you did without it. These grooves are a prime example. Course, you could cut them with a router, but there is much more mess and noise. 

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Chris Knight (20 Feb 2010)

Roy is no longer with us I am afraid. He used to own a tiny shop in Faversham that shifted to a site which then became Axminster before they moved to Bobbing. I think Roy died before it became Axminster.


----------



## Karl (25 Feb 2010)

After a few days entertaining the kids (well, it was half term after all) and then a couple of days getting over a sick bug the ungrateful little sh!ts gave me, I got a good day in on this yesterday.

With all the parts cut to size and lacquered I needed to drill out the holes for the shelves. So, first off the sides were put into pairs and the top (T) marked on each - don't want to go drilling the pin holes from different ends now, do we!







Then, using my hi tech drilling guide, the pin holes were marked out. You will note in this picture that the arrow on the guide points to the bottom and back of the panel






Flipping the guide over, you will note that the arrow now points to the bottom and front of the panel






Hey presto - 4 rows of holes, all ligning up with each other






Sorry, that was probably a little more info than you needed to know, but what else can I show you when building MDF units :duno: 

All units then biscuited, glued and screwed together. Sitting in the conservatory awaiting delivery to the customer this evening






I'm making a start on the doors tomorrow, so more progress then.

Yesterdays work - 10 hours, total to date 24 hours.


----------



## Paul Chapman (25 Feb 2010)

Very nice, Karl.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## BTR (25 Feb 2010)

very nice karl i was thinking about refreshing the kitchen units


----------



## Karl (1 Mar 2010)

Time to make the drawer fronts. 

After dropping the kids at school this morning, I got back and fired up some cast iron!

I had bought the oak PAR, thinking it'd save me a lot of time in prep work. Think again. They'd done a pretty [email protected] job of prepping the timber, and there were all kinds of issues - it wasn't even all the same width/thickness. 
:evil: 

The only way to get maximum yield from the timber i'd bought was to chop it all into (slightly) oversized components, then put them all through the thicknesser individually. So I ended up with this set of pieces - uniform thickness and nice and flat.






I then took all the stiles - most of the drawer fronts are 180mm high, but 3 are 196mm. 






I set up the spindle moulder with the 6mm groover, and ran each of the stiles through once to get a 25mm deep groove running down the centre (ish). 












I then did the same for all the rails, but reduced the depth of the groove to 10mm. 

Last job for today was to change the width of the rails. They were the same as the stiles (at 70mm), but I think they will look better if they are slightly narrower - it'll allow more of the 6mm veneered board which will form the panel to be seen. 






All pieces are slightly over length at the moment. Tomorrow they will be trimmed to the right size.

I now need to make a decision. I was going to join the rails to the stile with a tenon (into the 24mm groove already cut in the stiles). This could be done on the SM, or I could knock up a tennoning jig for use on the table saw. 

Or ..........

I could trim the rails to net length and, using the sliding carriage on the SM, cut 24mm grooves in the ends of all the rails. The whole lot would then be glued together with 48mm wide 6mm thick splines.

I think i'm going to go for option 1, but haven't quite decided yet. What do you lot think (if you haven't all gone to sleep yet :lol: ).

5 hours today, 29 in total

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Mr Ed (1 Mar 2010)

I would go with the tenon option Karl

Ed


----------



## trousers (1 Mar 2010)

I agree with Ed.
Do them on the spindle with the slider using the rebate block.
Is your x/cut fence dead accurate at 90deg?


----------



## Karl (1 Mar 2010)

Yes, having looked at it again this evening, I am going to machine the mortices on the spindle moulder. 

Trousers - the fence isn't 90 deg yet, but i'll set it up properly tomorrow. I've prepped some spare stock so that I can get the machine set up properly.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Karl (10 Mar 2010)

Well, other jobs have got in the way of cracking on with this, but i'm back on with it now. 

I decided not to cut the tenons on the SM, but on my new Xcalibur t/s. I set the mitre fence up with the short rip fence in order to cut the shoulders











With all the shoulders cut I intended on making a dedicated tenoning jig (or, more precisely, Steve Maskery's Ultimate Tenoning Jig), but I decided that I would modify my short rip fence for the job. Worked out really well, though I will be building a dedicated jig soon.
















The pieces are clamped to the rip fence, butted against the upright piece of MDF which keeps everything square. 

Once one all the cheeks are cut, a couple of spacers are placed behind the workpiece; one 6mm (the width of the panel) and one 3.2mm hardboard (the width of the kerf of the blade). 






This removes the 2nd cheek, and means that the rip fence stays in the same position and no need for any change in settings.

With all the cheeks cut, you end up with a pile of pieces with the tenons cut






Finally, all the pieces stored away for the night






The next couple of days will be spent making all the pieces for the doors, in the same manner as all these have been cut for the drawer fronts. 

Thanks for looking.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Paul Chapman (10 Mar 2010)

Blimey, the saw's paid for itself already........ :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Karl (26 Mar 2010)

Quick update.

I've started fitting on site this week. Here's the kitchen at the start


























This week i've got the replacement units fitted, end panels installed, new worktops, sink, hob, oven, integrated fridge etc. 

Next week I am fully tiling (ie floor to ceiling). Then the doors and final trim are to be fitted after easter weekend.

I'll do a final shot once all's fitted.

Cheers

Karl[/img]


----------



## TrimTheKing (27 Mar 2010)

Looking good mate, looking forward to seeing the finished shots.


----------



## chippy1970 (27 Mar 2010)

Karl,

Where did you buy that nice White Makita radio is anywhere doing good deals on them ?

Chris


----------



## Karl (27 Mar 2010)

Mark - you do realise that is the kitchen before i've started working on it???? :lol: 

Chris - i've had the radio about 2 years now. It's got 2 aux inputs, so you can add an MP3 player easily. One of the inputs is inside the battery compartment, so you can also store a (small) MP3 player in there and close the cover. I paid about £80, but not sure if there are any deals on it at the mo.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## TrimTheKing (27 Mar 2010)

Karl":g1e3uuz5 said:


> Mark - you do realise that is the kitchen before i've started working on it???? :lol:


Haha, yeah, I meant the WIP shots of it coming together 

But just for that, no matter what it looks like I'm going to say it looks shyte!


----------



## chippy1970 (27 Mar 2010)

Karl":1u8eghld said:


> Mark - you do realise that is the kitchen before i've started working on it???? :lol:
> 
> Chris - i've had the radio about 2 years now. It's got 2 aux inputs, so you can add an MP3 player easily. One of the inputs is inside the battery compartment, so you can also store a (small) MP3 player in there and close the cover. I paid about £80, but not sure if there are any deals on it at the mo.
> 
> ...



Come to think of it I asked once before when I saw it in another photo. I know about the mp3 thingies we have had them radios on site for years but Ive never bought my own thought it was about time I did :lol:


----------



## Anonymous (31 Mar 2010)

Hi guys 

I am new to this forum but thought i would jump straight in with my tip.

Regards to lipping your MDF edges with oak, there is a much simpler way that requires no cramps whatsoever.

Masking tape, a good strong masking tape.

I used to work for a prestigious joinery company (I completed my apprenticeship there), we built cabinets for windsor castle and the V and A museum etc etc.

and our standard practice was to used masking tape on all lippings it was very effective, much quicker and therefore cheaper i guess.

Your WIP is looking brilliant so far, just looking at your pictures has given me the bug again (ive been doing site work for the last few years)

I hope my tip helps

Regards

Mark


----------



## Karl (31 Mar 2010)

Hi Mark, and welcome to the forum.

I heard somebody else mention masking tape for securing lippings, but only after i'd done the lippings on this job. Will definitely give it a go next time. What make would you recommend? What about duck tape? I guess that would leave too much residue behind.

Quick update for the thread - i'm well underway with the tiling, and, although not to my taste, the customer is well chuffed.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## petermillard (31 Mar 2010)

Karl":29gkxd9u said:


> although not to my taste, the customer is well chuffed.



Always a bummer isn't it? You do some really nice work then have it fcuked up by the customers' personal preferences. Hey ho, there'll be other jobs for the portfolio, lol 

Re. masking tape, I use it a lot for lipping, especially when I do chunky floating shelves in alcoves/fireplaces - fitted ten of those today, would never have got them all done them all if I had to use edge clamps! Don't know the make offhand - it's what my local decorators' merchant stocks but I can check tomorrow. Best to use one with a bit of stretch to the tape though.

Cheers, Pete.


----------



## Anonymous (31 Mar 2010)

Hi thanks for the welcome message

I do was doing some research on the net and came across this forum very very helpful and very friendly (it is isn't it?!)

I am in the throws of taking the plunge and setting my own small joinery business up on A very tight budget, if you know anyone who has a sliding table saw and spindle moulder available please let me know (must be 240v)

what are you using for feet?

Also there is a fantastic company out there called hafele for ironmongery etc etc, if they haven't got it, its not been invented.

Kind Regards

Mark


----------



## Karl (1 May 2010)

Nearly finished......

After finishing the tiling, I left the job so the customer could do some decorating. Not sure why it took so long as there was only a ceiling and a bit of woodwork to do :? 

I got all the doors finished and installed this week. I had delayed actually putting the doors together until closer to the time of installation as I didn't really have anywhere to store them and wanted to avoid any damage. Also got the trim installed. NOTE - the doors haven't been levelled yet.



























Detail of the m&t joint used in all the doors and drawers






The joints weren't spot on off the saw, so I spent quite a bit of time having to fettle each joint. This probably took me about an extra day (33 doors/drawers, 4 m&t's per component). It was worth it in the end, as the joints were a nice fit.

Finally, a little close up of the door detail.






I've got 1 more day to finish off (i've been waiting for the toughened glass for the two doors either side of the extractor - the glass supplier tried to fob me off with non-toughened). I'll post the final pics later in the week.

Thanks for looking.

Cheers

Karl


----------

