# Clifton, Veritas or Lie Neilsen ?



## big soft moose (18 Jan 2010)

Unfortunately these arent for me but for work - with us shortly moving to a new 'shop i have decided that the time has come to upgrade our crappy chinese planes and as the budget will stand it at the momnt i am looking at buying a quality marque.

the basic purchase will be a no.6 or 7 as we are largely working big things like signs, gates, benches etc plus i might get a 4 for shooting the ends of tenons etc

question is which make ?

I know the reasons for picking these three collectively over stanley/quasheng/axminster etc but how do i choose between them ?

my instinct is to go with clifton on the basis of their being british made but i want to be sure their isnt a good reason i should choose veritas or LN instead

all input welcome


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## wizer (18 Jan 2010)

In all honesty, in your situation, QuangSheng. 

If you insist on spending money for no reason then there's not much in the top three. I'd keep it British if I had to make a decision.


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## big soft moose (18 Jan 2010)

wizer":3m6wn8j2 said:


> In all honesty, in your situation, QuangSheng.




Under normal circumstances you'd be right and we may yet go that way - but year end is coming up and if the money's in the budget I may as well spend it on some quality tooling that's going to last

the other problem with going quansheng is that our host council operates a preffered vendor system - so we can buy from axminster (who are on the system) no problem , but cant easily buy from matthew (who isnt) without a lot of faffing arround.

so we then only have a choice of the axminster own brand, stanley, or the quality three, and given the poor comments here on the new stanleys...


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## Max Power (18 Jan 2010)

Why would you choose anything other than the cliffie. The blades are a pleasure to sharpen and take an edge better than a surgeons scalpel, they are by far the nicest looking with that lovely british racing green and did someone mention they are made in Britain. \/


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## Paul Chapman (18 Jan 2010)

Clifton every time 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Max Power (18 Jan 2010)

Wizer , why would bsm buy quangsh*** when hes getting it paid for ?


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## WellsWood (18 Jan 2010)

big soft moose":3kbo5fwd said:


> wizer":3kbo5fwd said:
> 
> 
> > In all honesty, in your situation, QuangSheng.
> ...



Clifton then, unless you have a particular need for the low angle stuff that Veritas excel at (but at a price). They're every bit as good as the murrican stuff IMO, are a damn site easier to sharpen, have astonishingly good after sales service, are cheaper, and British. It's a no brainer.


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## big soft moose (18 Jan 2010)

Alan Jones":3q0m58cr said:


> Wizer , why would bsm buy quangs**** when hes getting it paid for ?



I think tom was probably saying that as the tools in question are going to get use , and possibly abused, by a variety of different people (workshop volunteers etc) and that they would be used on gates, benches, signs etc not on fine furniture - then spending two hundred notes plus would be unnecessary

and like i said he's possibly right at that - but ive got no easy way of buying from mathew with work money.

btw - these tools will be staying in the workshop , we will keep the cheap tat we are currently using for use on out site , tho will eventually replace it with old stanleys or similar.


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## Max Power (18 Jan 2010)

rule brittania ,britannia rules the planes


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## wizer (18 Jan 2010)

Alan Jones":2gwr1aaf said:


> Wizer , why would bsm buy quangsh*** when hes getting it paid for ?




Because QS planes are very good, but cheap too. They're going to be used for rough-ish work by many workers. It doesn't matter that the company are paying (a charity I believe), I'd still wince every time someone who didn't appreciate their value picked it up or looked like they might drop it. With a QS plane you know the price is much lower and easier replaced.

But if they can't be procured easily, then Clifton, 100%


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## big soft moose (18 Jan 2010)

wizer":3kx3w15s said:


> Alan Jones":3kx3w15s said:
> 
> 
> > Wizer , why would bsm buy quangsh*** when hes getting it paid for ?
> ...



I think i can probably educate my guys to be careful, which might be easier with expensive kit - after all we have thousands of pounds worth of mower and chainsaw kit in use every week and it doesn't often get damaged negligently.

I'm not knocking the QS kit - if matthew was a "preffered vendor" i'd probably go with them - but as he isn't it looks like we'll be buying clifton.

But i'll be buying a QS no.6 for my own use as i don't run to the cliff prices out of my own pocket.

edit : btw we aren't a charity , we are a not for profit project principally funded by natural england and highway authorities , so we probably fall in the Quango classification.


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## woodbloke (18 Jan 2010)

wizer":12e29b9f said:


> Alan Jones":12e29b9f said:
> 
> 
> > Wizer , why would bsm buy quangsh*** when hes getting it paid for ?
> ...


I'd go with Tom here. If the planes are going to be used as general workshop planes by a lot of bodies, the QS planes could be abused at a much more affordable price...plus for one Cliffie you might be able to get two of the equivalent sized planes from Matthew. 
Again, if arms can't be twisted to buy from WH, then the Cliffie route is the only one to go down 
You might find also bsm, that the Cliffie's disappear into the back of someone else's waggon for weekend 'homers' :wink: - Rob


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## neilc (18 Jan 2010)

My own weakness is Veritas, love the bevel ups.
Neil


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## OPJ (18 Jan 2010)

I'm sure there's a video somewhere where someone drops a Clifton plane from the top of a stepladder directly on to a concrete floor... It doesn't crack, snap, break or anything like that! I can't imagine the Quangsheng planes would stand up to as-much abuse...

(Okay, I don't remember _seeing_ the video but I did read about in one of the magazines a couple of years ago - probably Good Woodorking on one of their visits to Clico... Andy?)

Buy British! :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (18 Jan 2010)

OPJ":2ju2ph7s said:


> I'm sure there's a video somewhere where someone drops a Clifton plane from the top of a stepladder directly on to a concrete floor... It doesn't crack, snap, break or anything like that! I can't imagine the Quangsheng planes would stand up to as-much abuse...
> 
> (Okay, I don't remember _seeing_ the video but I did read about in one of the magazines a couple of years ago - probably Good Woodorking on one of their visits to Clico... Andy?)
> 
> Buy British! :wink:



Hi Olly,

I've a copy of that DVD. Mike Hudson from Clifton gave me a copy. Yes, they dropped a #7 body from 20 feet onto a concrete floor and it didn't break. Quite impressive.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## big soft moose (18 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":3l4asnu5 said:


> You might find also bsm, that the Cliffie's disappear into the back of someone else's waggon for weekend 'homers' :wink: - Rob



thaty thought has occured to me - but given that i'm in charge of the tasks nothing will be leaving the 'shop without my say so

course there's a strong possibility of it "accidentally" falling into my car and coming home with me


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## Modernist (18 Jan 2010)

Why do I always seem to swim against the tide?

I would hate to see quality kit like Cliftons being subject to general, all comers, workshop use unless the users were trained to appreciate them. If not the inevitable consequence is that they are abused and suffer accordingly. Waste of a fine plane.

Similarly the other big 2 are out so that leaves QS which would suit the application perfectly and save some of the gov's (our) cash to boot whilst having no detrimental effect on the production of gates.

I speak as an enthusiatic plane user with LN, Veritas and QS highlighting a collection of Records and Stanleys. Regretfully no Cliffie yet but my new QS No 6 arrives tomorrow   a typical case where I could not justify the treble price for a top end plane as this will be used for general joinery rather than precision finishing work.


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## big soft moose (18 Jan 2010)

Modernist":3jumlrws said:


> Similarly the other big 2 are out so that leaves QS which would suit the application perfectly and save some of the gov's (our) cash to boot whilst having no detrimental effect on the production of gates.
> 
> .



you are right to an extent - but as i explained above procurement policy means that we cant easily buy from workshop heaven.

pretty much this means that whatever we purchase has to come from the axminster catalogue (or screwfix but seriously...) which in turn means that if the big 3 are out we have a choice of either the axminster own brand or the new stanley 

and given that both of these get awful reviews i don't see it as a good use of taxpayer/council tax payers cash to spend it on something that wont do the job propperly, or last a decent length of time.

Therefore the rationale is that its better to spend a couple of hundred notes on a clifton 6 than it is to spend 85 on the stanley or 45 on the axi only to wind up replacing them in a couple of years time or less.

Also just to explain about the workshop volunteers, we aren't talking about any tom, dick, or susan coming off the street to use these tools - our workshop volunteers are a smallish bunch of on the whole quite skilled peeps who are largely hobby woodworkers or ex proffesionals - all of whom are trained in how to use the kit we have and supervised by either myself or my sidekick andy (who is an ex boat builder)

also given that these folks are giving up their leisure time to help us and save us money i cant help feeling that it would be disrespectful to give them second rate kit to use.


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## Modernist (18 Jan 2010)

I don't think anyone is going to suggest a Stanley, not a new one anyway.

If the users appreciate them then fine, win win etc.

Your purchasing policy is a classic example of bureaucratic meddling resulting in a negative result and the reason I have to work in the private sector (for myself) I wring someones neck if I were in your position.


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## wizer (18 Jan 2010)

Surely there must be something in the Dakota line you can procure...

 :-#


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## big soft moose (18 Jan 2010)

wizer":2fvyh9ea said:


> Surely there must be something in the Dakota line you can procure...
> 
> :-#



fortunately rutlands aren't a preferred vendor either, not that i would buy from them if they were the last vendor on earth.


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## Alf (19 Jan 2010)

Modernist":2njgdljq said:


> Why do I always seem to swim against the tide?



Dunno, Brian - to save yourself from drowning? Quite honestly I also find the whole funding reasoning so utterly blood boiling I can't bring myself to even consider the question. Not BSM's fault, but... Gah!


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## yetloh (20 Jan 2010)

It's hard to argue against the Clifton because of the price advantage although my personal preference would be for Veritas. They have useful innovations and I would rather support companyiss who try to move the game on rather than those which simply copy old designs, however worthy.

Jim


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## jlawrence (24 Jan 2010)

I worked at somewhere in the past where we could only procure from preferred vendors - as network manager it did my head in.
One day they just turned around and said add 'your' preferred vendors to the list - ebay was one of the first to go on .
I think it would be worth while you going through the hassle of getting WH added to the list - if not for this purchase then it'd be useful for future.
It's good to have Axminster on there but they don't sell everything - which is my major bugbear with preferred vendors. The preferred vendor idea is good for general purchases, but specials can 'normally' still be bought from anywhere - after all if the preferred don't sell what you need then you can't buy it from there.


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## big soft moose (24 Jan 2010)

jlawrence":3q0nezna said:


> I think it would be worth while you going through the hassle of getting WH added to the list - if not for this purchase then it'd be useful for future.
> .



i'm working on that - going to be speaking with matthew next week , ive also made an arrangement with him to enable me to get a QS no.6 for work so thats the resolution of this querry.


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## Vann (24 Jan 2010)

big soft moose":3dwkl7t9 said:


> ...to enable me to get a QS no.6 for work so thats the resolution of this querry.


There goes the British planemaking industry, down the gurgler.

I guess we'll never see the Clifton block plane in production now.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Max Power (24 Jan 2010)

Yes another nail in the coffin of british industry, when chinese goods are chosen over british when even the price element wasnt an issue , what hope for british products  What is particularly worrying is the number of people in agreement with this choice :roll: hopefully theyll be the ones who lose their jobs to the east at least itll give them plenty of time to play with their chiwanese toys :evil:


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## daver828 (24 Jan 2010)

big soft moose":go8xba0a said:


> Unfortunately these arent for me but for work - with us shortly moving to a new 'shop i have decided that the time has come to upgrade our crappy chinese planes and as the budget will stand it at the momnt i am looking at buying a quality marque.
> 
> the basic purchase will be a no.6 or 7 as we are largely working big things like signs, gates, benches etc plus i might get a 4 for shooting the ends of tenons etc
> 
> ...



Why no Philly planes option?


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## Loz_S (25 Jan 2010)

I just want to agree wholeheartedly with Vann and Alan Jones comments.

Why on earth would anyone suggest Clifton planes are "too good" for workshop use. How damned pretentious and short sighted. Planes are made to be used not looked at.

To admit that Clifton planes are easily the better choice but don't want them sullied by untrained hands is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure Clifton would rather sell another plane than become a bankrupt elitist reserve for those worthy enough to be allowed to handle them.

It really is no surprise to me that British industry is going down the sh**er when a great British company like Clifton can't even win a contest like this.


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## Modernist (25 Jan 2010)

The Clifton is a superb cabinet makers plane and competes with a couple of others for this market. 

Even Clifton cannot imagine this specialised tool is a mass market item and, with respect, making gates will not make use of many of the undoubted benefits of the Cliffy.

The only reason price was not an issue was the rather dubious argument that beauacracy, and the fact that it was ultimately public money, made this option possible.

To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish. To survive they will have to compete effectively in their own chosen market. To date I have not personally felt moved to include Clifton in my own collection, not because they are bad in any way, but that, on the day, some features of alternatives had greater personal appeal to me. Such is life.


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## Loz_S (25 Jan 2010)

Modernist":1bbgnd30 said:


> ..To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish. ..



Is it really?

If everyone who considers buying a Clifton is convinced they should buy something else (for whatever reason), who is left to actually buy from Clifton?

Cause and effect. Your advice has consequences whether you choose to agree or not.


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## Modernist (25 Jan 2010)

Loz_S":1206suoe said:


> Modernist":1206suoe said:
> 
> 
> > ..To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish. ..
> ...



Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.


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## Vann (25 Jan 2010)

Modernist":38nz520s said:


> To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish.


Not utter rubbish. This may not be enough to kill off Clifton, but it will reduce sales, making their operation less viable.

Here in New Zealand we used to have world class tramping pack manufacturers (my other hobby...). They made the packs that Sir Edmund Hillary used to conquer Everest and on his Trans-Antarctic expeditions. Another business decided it could make packs cheaper by importing from China. Now there's no-one employed in pack manufacturing in NZ.

Beauacracy occurs everywhere. If it keeps your neighbour in a job it's not all bad.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Loz_S (25 Jan 2010)

Modernist":34hz44j6 said:


> Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.



It would appear to me that Clifton very nearly had a sale "in the bag" until advice was given suggesting QS would be a better buy. Clifton certainly was attractive and met his need but you appeared to suggest that his need wasn't worthy of a quality Clifton plane. 

I am very much of the opinion that "a tool is just a tool" and should be used and not admired (or heaven forbid just collected). Who cares if some of the volunteers don't "appreciate" the quality, Clifton tools are virtually indestructible and more than worthy for workshop use - why preclude them? Anyway, BSM said that the volunteers in his group weren't a bunch of muppets, but skilled woodworkers and ex-professionals.

Seeing a Ferrari in a museum instead of driven on the track really winds me up.


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## big soft moose (25 Jan 2010)

Loz_S":3495j42i said:


> I just want to agree wholeheartedly with Vann and Alan Jones comments.
> 
> Why on earth would anyone suggest Clifton planes are "too good" for workshop use. How damned pretentious and short sighted. Planes are made to be used not looked at.
> 
> ...



the bottom line tho is that this is public money and i am obliged to make the best possible use of it - given that quangsheng are very nearly as good (and for the work we will be doing indistinguishable) at a tad over a hundred notes rather than over twice as much this is a no brainer now that the issues of our ability to purchase from workshop heaven have been resolved.

It ought to be posible for a "great british company" like clifton to make a budget model, and this will be necessary if they are going to compete with imports of the standard of QS


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## dunbarhamlin (25 Jan 2010)

Also a strong believer that British public funds should be used to buy British goods from a British source unless there's a damn good reason not to.
Shame. Only got one part right here (and Matthew _does_ stock Cliffies.)


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## big soft moose (25 Jan 2010)

Loz_S":x2p164he said:


> Modernist":x2p164he said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.
> ...



I agree with you about tools being there to be used and my volunteers would use any tool with respect so the whole "too good to be used" thing is a red herring.

clifton nearly had this sale in the bag only because i was apparently unable to buy a QS for adminsistrative reasons (ie they had won the competition agains veritas and LN, and against the budget models offered by stanley and axminster) - as soon as matthew found a way passed the administrative barrier the choice was:

a) a QS 6 for £119 (or actually less than that due to the nature of the deal i did with mathew)

b) A clifton 6 for £232

Choosing A is a no brainer as it leaves our project with another £112 to spend on other tooling, and we dont have money to burn.

If clifton would like to offer me 50% off or if someone would like to donate a hundred and twelve notes on the proviso that we buy a clifton then i'll happily buy one,


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## big soft moose (25 Jan 2010)

dunbarhamlin":nh6a3nhu said:


> Also a strong believer that British public funds should be used to buy British goods from a British source unless there's a damn good reason not to.
> Shame. Only got one part right here (and Matthew _does_ stock Cliffies.)



there is a damn good reason not to - the cliffie costs twice as much ! and in this economic climate we dont have a hundred plus notes to spend needlesly.


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## Loz_S (25 Jan 2010)

big soft moose":2xggxrex said:


> a) a QS 6 for £119 (or actually less than that due to the nature of the deal i did with mathew)
> 
> b) A clifton 6 for £232
> 
> Choosing A is a no brainer as it leaves our project with another £112 to spend on other tooling, and we dont have money to burn.



Well, price, in this case, really does clinch it then... 



big soft moose":2xggxrex said:


> It ought to be posible for a "great british company" like clifton to make a budget model, and this will be necessary if they are going to compete with imports of the standard of QS



To continue my car analogy, I don't see Ferrari releasing "budget models" and probably for a very sound business reason!

.


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## big soft moose (25 Jan 2010)

Loz_S":2diw4wdj said:


> To continue my car analogy, I don't see Ferrari releasing "budget models" and probably for a very sound business reason!



true but then ferrari probably arent worried about their market share being threatened by for example the mazda mx5 ( and yes i know thats made in japan not china)

If clifton are similiarly unworried then fine - but they (and you) cant be suprised when people buy cheaper brands for economic reasons.

(the real loser to the QS would therefore not be clifton but stanley who's no.6 priced at £85 is in direct competition - however its also rubbish)


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## big soft moose (25 Jan 2010)

daver828":1tcjhg0g said:


> Why no Philly planes option?



because AFAIK philly doesnt make a no.6 jointer plane equivalent

AFAICS his longest plane is the "jack" which is roughly equivalent to a 4 or 5, If i'm wrong about this and philly does have a jointer in his repertoire which we would like to offer us for arround 120 notes then i'd invite him to get in touch


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## Modernist (25 Jan 2010)

Loz_S":n87y3ol9 said:


> Modernist":n87y3ol9 said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly true and I am sure all purchasers have considered alternatives, but why would you suggest that "everyone...be convinced to buy something else". People in different circumstances clearly will decide to buy Clifton if it is attractive for them and their needs.
> ...



So you think information on alternatives should be supressed from fellow forum users to support a particular supplier. Surely the purpose of fora such as this is to spread information and experience to allow contributors to make an informed choice.

With regards to the application in question I said it "would not make use of the undoubted benefits" which I stand by.

I think some of the comments on this thread were driven by the rather unusual purchasing arrangements and their consequences at a time when funding is unavailable for a never ending list of worthy causes. 

I am not a professional woodworker but get a deal of pleasure from the use of well tuned planes, in particular, and, like others on this forum, have a range to choose from. Nothing wrong with that IMHO. Like you I don't have a lot of time for non-using _collectors _but they are entitled to their view. It's just a pity that the rest of us are saddled with the effect they have on prices.




> Not utter rubbish. This may not be enough to kill off Clifton, but it will reduce sales, making their operation less viable.
> 
> Here in New Zealand we used to have world class tramping pack manufacturers (my other hobby...). They made the packs that Sir Edmund Hillary used to conquer Everest and on his Trans-Antarctic expeditions. Another business decided it could make packs cheaper by importing from China. Now there's no-one employed in pack manufacturing in NZ.
> 
> Beauacracy occurs everywhere. If it keeps your neighbour in a job it's not all bad.



Design is all - well almost. It's why LN, Clifton and Veritas are successful. Similarly I recently had the opportunity to take a close look at the Stanley "high end" offerings and was appalled by the poor design and particularly quality control. Using light alloy with a very poor thread for a block plane handle is sure to fail, and it does. Interestingly and unusually most of their competition comes from much more expensive Western products that did what their clients wanted - well.

It may surprise you to learn that my main occupation is the MD of an engineering company in the UK specialising in wear resistance and screening media for minerals processing, an industry traditionally dominated by Scandinavian companies and low cost commodity products from China et al. The answer is not to be protectionist of home grown industries as this weakens them, eg the UK car and motorcyle industry. How is it that Toyota and Honda can make cars successfully in the UK when our own manufactureres could not. Answer - better management and a focus on the customer. All manufacturing companies can do that but you have to choose your market carefully and build on your true strengths i.e. don't try to make T shirts in the UK but F1 racing cars - yes.

The future of Clifton lies in it's own hands and I wish them well.


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## Loz_S (25 Jan 2010)

Modernist":duyay3lx said:


> ...The answer is not to be protectionist of home grown industries as this weakens them, eg the UK car and motorcyle industry. How is it that Toyota and Honda can make cars successfully in the UK when our own manufactureres could not. Answer - better management and a focus on the customer. ...



I don't want to drag this out much more as we have all made our points quite well and BSM has made his decision.

However, dragging this OT for a minute, I believe that a case can quite clearly be made in favour of some protectionism. Especially with your examples of car producers. Renault and Peugeot-Citroen are really only successful today due to continual French government support which maintains an industrial base in France. If only the UK had done the same...

Also, AFAIK the Japanese manufacturers were originally forced to set up plants in Europe as EU quotas on Japanese cars built in Japan were introduced. The plants were only located in the UK because the UK government offered them massive tax breaks and set-up grants!

Now, someone remind me, what has this got to do with woodworking...!


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## Modernist (25 Jan 2010)

Loz_S":1o0pci49 said:


> Modernist":1o0pci49 said:
> 
> 
> > ...The answer is not to be protectionist of home grown industries as this weakens them, eg the UK car and motorcyle industry. How is it that Toyota and Honda can make cars successfully in the UK when our own manufactureres could not. Answer - better management and a focus on the customer. ...
> ...



Only a tenuous link - we've said our piece so I agree, let's move on


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## dunbarhamlin (25 Jan 2010)

If the QS is 40% less than the Cliffie, the net cost of the Clifton _to the British taxpayer_ is probably about the same or less - we need legislation to properly support our few remaining wealth producers, such that either government funded bodies are reimbursed the UK manufacturer's tax burden (probably the most cost effective solution) or the manufacturers are given exemption/rebates for corporation/employment taxes associated with publicly funded orders (much messier)


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## yetloh (25 Jan 2010)

Modernist":1v8gp43m said:


> Design is all - well almost. It's why LN, Clifton and Veritas are successful.


 
That's a bit of a stretch in the case of Clifton and LN because basically, they haven't designed a thing, just copied someone else's 50 -100 year old designs and made them to a higher standard. Nothing wrong with that you may argue, unless you are using a company's design credentials as a reason for advocating purchase. A perfectly respectable line in relation to Veritas and one of the reasons why I favour their products;they are the only makers of premium quality planes who have tried to move the game on in design terms. 

In saying this I am not of course suggesting that this is an argument against BSF's decision to buy the QS which seems very sensible in his situation. Spending my own money gives me the luxury of being able use criteria other than functional adequacy and price. 

Jim


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## dunbarhamlin (25 Jan 2010)

Do agree.
In the current setup, the Scottish pretender's slush fund would be better served by buying Cliffie, but BSM's budget is not.


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## Modernist (25 Jan 2010)

yetloh":1ug73jyk said:


> Modernist":1ug73jyk said:
> 
> 
> > Design is all - well almost. It's why LN, Clifton and Veritas are successful.
> ...



Yes and no.

I did not buy a Clifton shoulder plane precisely because it is old fashioned in my view and did buy a Veritas which is one of my finest planes. Although LN are not innovative there was no alternative bedrock design at the time and "design" extends to materials and quality. Similarly if O1 steel and a two piece cap were your attractions you would go for the Clifton. Clearly price is always important but not so much as perceived value in the final analysis.


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## Philly (25 Jan 2010)

big soft moose":2i30dcnq said:


> daver828":2i30dcnq said:
> 
> 
> > Why no Philly planes option?
> ...



Yes, I make Jointers up to 30 inches long. Not sure if I can make it for the same as our Chinese cousins - the single craftsmen working alone has slightly higher overheads. :wink: 
Philly


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## big soft moose (25 Jan 2010)

Philly":29kyyk7f said:


> Not sure if I can make it for the same as our Chinese cousins - the single craftsmen working alone has slightly higher overheads. :wink:
> Philly



I appreciate that and in an ideal world i would rather have suported british industry by giving either you or clifton the business, but as explained above i dont have that luxury of budget.

However for info (as I am also thinking of a 6 or 7 for myself) how much would you sell a comparable jointer for ?


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## Philly (25 Jan 2010)

A Try plane is £200, Jointer £225. Length to suit the customer, in quartersawn English Beech with a 60mm wide, 4mm thick O1 iron. Also the bed angle can be cut at a pitch to suit the types of timbers you work (from 40 degrees through to 60)
Cheers
Philly


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## Max Power (25 Jan 2010)

The fact that grieves me the most is that we actually give the chinese tens of millions every year in aid, while they enjoy economic growth in excess of 10% :roll:


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## Modernist (25 Jan 2010)

Alan Jones":3a67tcqi said:


> The fact that grieves me the most is that we actually give the chinese tens of millions every year in aid, while they enjoy economic growth in excess of 10% :roll:



Except that 10% of very little is still very little.


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## Max Power (25 Jan 2010)

:? very little ? they are now the second biggest economy in the world , so 10% growth on that would be very much


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## Modernist (25 Jan 2010)

Alan Jones":qslulbma said:


> :? very little ? they are now the second biggest economy in the world , so 10% growth on that would be very much



Yes but there are x times more of them - mostly in extreme poverty.

I see we are coming from different places. No problem.


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## RichardL (31 Mar 2010)

Vann":22uk0ipf said:


> Modernist":22uk0ipf said:
> 
> 
> > To suggest that this sounds the death knell for Clifton planes is utter rubbish.
> ...



Hi All

Just joined the forum, also from the other end of the globe. 

I read through the posts with some interest and as Vann says, Kiwis have a similar approach to the free market as the UK and as a consequense, most of the good quality NZ-made stuff (and there used to be some really top notch stuff), either doesnt exist any more or is made in China. The replacement stuff is generally not as good, although a bit cheaper and of course I'm now paying the ex-employees the dole.

One thing seems to have been overlooked in this discussion. I haven't used a QS plane so can't really judge them, but do own a few Cliftons and other English tools (mostly Record  ), many of which I have had for years and have become like old friends. Thats the point. They have lasted for years. I have also had a number of Chinese tools. Some like my Makita drill I think are great. Most others have made thier way, usually broken, to the bin.

So, for me, lesson #1 is that you never regret buying quality. Perhaps, in the long-run a Clifton will be cheaper as it will last. Furthermore, as the Cliftons are made by local craftsmen, it seems criminal not to support them. 

Another thought is that I take a lot of pleasure and pride in using good tools and I hope that is reflected in my work. Even if the tools are not being used for fine cabinetmaking, surely that sort of thing will rub off in gate making or whatever. 

I thought the original reason for replacing the planes was to buy something better (I think "Chinese rubbish" was mentioned)

For those just being patriotic (and good on you, shame you are in such a minority) I found this web site. http://www.buybritish.com/
Could do with a few more tool links though.

Cheers

Richard


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## Vann (31 Mar 2010)

Hi Richard,

Welcome to the forum.

I think you're the guy who acquired a nice old Record SS (04 or 04.5)some years ago, and posted somewhere on the www. Was that you?

Cheers, Vann.


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## RichardL (31 Mar 2010)

Hi Vann

yep, thats me, what a good memory. Haven't browsed many forums lately. Still love the old Record SS though, a lighter weight version of my Clifton #4. Actually, haven't used either for a while till tonight - to help make some bee hives. Ok they dont need to be planed perfectly smooth but I did anyway just to make some shavings!!


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## Max Power (31 Mar 2010)

Hi Richard, a very warm welcome to the forum, hows the weather down your way, its been awful here the last couple of days even though its now officially spring


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## RichardL (31 Mar 2010)

Hi and thanks for the welcome. After a fairly dreary wet summer here on the west of the north island, the weather has been pretty good this autumn. Other parts of the country are in drought so I guess we are fairly lucky. I have just read about the weather in the UK on the BBC. Sounds horrible but I guess spring is around the corner.

Cheers
Richard


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## Routermonster (1 Apr 2010)

Hi Richard 

Welcome to the forum. Glad you guys buy British! 

You kiwis are in SWMBO's & my thoughts a lot these days. 

My elder daughter has been finished working in NZ for a year (as a chef in Palmerston North - very long hours!). She's travelled whenever she has had any free time and she loves your country. She's just done a solo tour of South Island in her ancient car (whale watching, horse riding, etc); now she's off to Auckland & Bay of Islands with friends for a few days. She'll soon return to the UK via Sydney, Los Angeles and New York. She leaves behind many friends. The good news is - we'll be seeing her again in a couple of weeks' time . We've kept in touch via phone and internet, so we feel we know the place quite well now! 

Les


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## RichardL (1 Apr 2010)

Hi Les

Small world. Probably went to the resturant your daughter worked at - I live in Palmy. Glad she is enjoying her time here and hope she has a good trip home.

I'm actually English, have lived in NZ most of my life but still have connections with and an affection for the UK and have been back a few times and have thoroughly enjoyed the trips.

I'm not sure how many here buy British as British made is so hard to find. Certainly in the tool line, since the demise of Record and the move of Neil Tools (Spear and Jackson Eclipse etc) to Hong Kong ownership there seems to be very little on the shelves. Most of the recent tools I have bought have been over the Internet from Flinn Garlick who stock most of the remaining Sheffield tool makers products and from Ashley Iles. It'd be nice to see Clico (Clifton) prosper and go on to extend their line-up of tools.

Cheers

Richard


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