# Peter Sefton Long Courses



## billw

Now, I KNOW Peter is on this forum, but it's perhaps the best place to ask. Peter's probably gone pale reading this hoping that I'm not planning on turning up but.....

I finish my degree in June, and if my property sells before August I am left with just the responsibility of two cats. My current plan involves doing a Masters and PhD (yes, I am definitely trying to avoid real work ever again) but if I have the cash then I'd much rather go and improve my skills with wood.

So, has anyone done the course? I would love to hear any views. Obviously you're free to PM me if you'd rather keep them confidential (even if good). 

I should mention that I've looked at other courses too, I went to meet David Savage with the intention of going to Rowden, but obviously he's sadly passed away and whilst I am in no doubt that the school and its staff is good, the loss of its mentor does affect consideration. Others I've looked at include Williams & Cleal, Marc Fish, Waters & Acland, and John Lloyd.


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## custard

Be careful when choosing a course, amongst furniture makers some training establishments enjoy far better reputations than others. 

Amongst the issues I've heard about are inadequate safety standards, overly large projects designed to keep students occupied with minimal supervision, insufficient one-to-one instruction, inappropriate projects (ie over ambitious projects which look great in the publicity but that the student can only complete with a big helping hand to the point of virtually subbing out the really tricky tasks to the trainer, too much focus on out-dated areas, training that only exists as an afterthought to make a workshop financially viable, or low quality teaching that encourages poor practises. 

One of the bizarre things is that students of some of the worst offenders are particularly fulsome with their praise! Whether it's a case of not knowing enough to see the shortcomings, or the woodworking equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome, I don't know!

Another issue you need to be aware of if you're considering training overseas is that some of the really big name workshops in other countries have now been subsumed within universities, with the result that the practical hand-on content has been squeezed down to nugatory levels. 

Happily Peter Sefton's training is very highly regarded, if I were looking for UK training today he'd be on a very short short-list.


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## doctor Bob

Out of curiosity, do these courses give a qualification or is the "qualification" the studied under X.


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## Doug B

I can’t comment on the content of Peter’s courses as I’ve never attended one but I’ve seen the end results many times visiting his annual summer open day. If the quality of the furniture produced by his students is anything to go by the courses are well worth attending.

This is a bench displayed a couple of years ago made by one of his students






It really was high quality as has been all the work on display.


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## custard

Some give a formal qualification, Chichester College for example had a sky high reputation for its HNC/HND courses, for others it's just the halo effect.


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## Jacob

Depends on how you see the outcome. Being a competent hobby woodworker is one thing, earning a living is another.
I get the impression that the holy grail of "fine woodworking" isn't an earner unless you also teach or serve the industry in other ways. Very much a niche, very much aspirational.
Depends on what sort of woodwork you want to be involved in - there's a huge range of other stuff; esoteric niches, boat building, architectural joinery, kitchen fitting, restoration/repair, musical instrument... endless list and loads of matching courses.
Depends what your existing qualifications and skills nclude and what is missing; design itself being the weakest link for many.
Design course? Art college? HND? City and Guilds? Marketing and retail?.....


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## Droogs

You could also consider the chippendale school they have a good rep


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## Jacob

Doug B said:


> I can’t comment on the content of Peter’s courses as I’ve never attended one but I’ve seen the end results many times visiting his annual summer open day. If the quality of the furniture produced by his students is anything to go by the courses are well worth attending.
> 
> This is a bench displayed a couple of years ago made by one of his students
> 
> View attachment 100604
> 
> It really was high quality as has been all the work on display.


Nice one - but to make a living you'd need to make them in batches and be able to market them.


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## doctor Bob

Doug B said:


> I can’t comment on the content of Peter’s courses as I’ve never attended one but I’ve seen the end results many times visiting his annual summer open day. If the quality of the furniture produced by his students is anything to go by the courses are well worth attending.



I follow Peteron facebook, and I'm always amazed by the skill the new students show for beginners.


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## Doug B

Jacob said:


> Nice one - but to make a living you'd need to make them in batches and be able to market them.


Without doubt your right but you need to acquire the skills in the first place to make a sellable item & from the sounds of things Bill is more interested in acquiring skill than going into business


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## Doug B

doctor Bob said:


> I follow Peteron facebook, and I'm always amazed by the skill the new students show for beginners.


Completely agree Bob, I now know via Instagram a few of Peter’s previous students & they only have praise for his courses.


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## doctor Bob

From what I have seen, some of Peters students go on to open successful businesses, others become better hobbiests.
Not sure the commercial aspect mentioned by Jacob has any relevance.


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## JoeSheffer

I agree. It's why many of these woodworkers seem to run schools now, as opposed to making furniture. It's a far more profitable business than actually having to get high end cabinet making/furniture making work even for someone who is a really seasoned pro.

I did a couple of weeks taste with David Quin at the Furniture Craft School. Really enjoyed it as a hobbyist, but felt that many of the full time students who were there were also hobbyists as well, semi-retired etc.

The cost of the full time courses is also quite eye watering. I've no idea how people fund them. Peter Sefton's 6 month course is about £12,000 if i remember correctly... ouch. 

I also suspect there is absolutely no point in looking at this until this coronavirus nightmare is over. Gargh!!!


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## Jacob

custard said:


> Some give a formal qualification, Chichester College for example had a sky high reputation for its HNC/HND courses, for others it's just the halo effect.


Looks like "real world" woodwork! The advantage of old establishments is that they may be running long established courses developed/derived from highly respected and ancient City & Guilds, closely involved with the trade. Even the starter course is a full year: StackPath


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## shed9

I've completed one of Peters short courses, it was a three (possibly four) day course last year. 

Nicely placed workshop on the outskirts of Upton-upon Severn, lots of natural light and well equipped. Peter is a superb instructor and I would do another course in a heartbeat.


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## mikej460

If money isn't an issue Bill then I'd go with the school that gives you the most personal satisfaction and skill development. I did an evening class at Rycotewood in Thame Rycotewood Furniture | Furniture Making College | Oxfordshire during the early 2000's and really enjoyed it. I started with virtually no wood working knowledge, having been trained as an Engineer. The tuition was excellent and I learnt a lot but sadly they closed it down and moved it to Oxford. I followed them there but the tuition was poor in comparison as our tutor left and the instructor/student ratio was far too big, so I left, I don't know what it is like now.


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## billw

Ok yes, let’s just clear up one thing - I have no interest in making money out of this. You only live once and I’ve done my service to wage slavery and materialism, it’s a one way path to “nothing is ever enough” and unhappiness because whatever you own will never be as good as the guy next door etc. It’s like bidding against yourself in an auction.

My aim is to become more competent and enjoy my years on this earth. I can certainly do that by being academically minded, I could leave a load of academic papers and theories as my legacy.

However, making things is what I enjoy, even Lego.


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## custard

At the end of the day it's all about the instructors and that's just as true in the HNC/HND environment. 

The head of the Chichester operation is passionate and committed, he gives up his free time to manage Britain's Cabinet Making team in the World Skills competition, in which he's achieved a stellar medal record. He's the Pep Guardiola of furniture making!









WorldSkills UK | Raising Apprenticeships & Technical Education Standards


We raise standards in apprenticeships and technical education so more young people get the best start in work and life.




www.worldskillsuk.org





At the other end there are HNC/HND courses where the instructors couldn't care less. That rubs off on the students who end up chucking bits of wood around and vandalising each others projects. Total waste of time for all concerned.


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## mikej460

billw said:


> Ok yes, let’s just clear up one thing - I have no interest in making money out of this. You only live once and I’ve done my service to wage slavery and materialism, it’s a one way path to “nothing is ever enough” and unhappiness because whatever you own will never be as good as the guy next door etc. It’s like bidding against yourself in an auction.
> 
> My aim is to become more competent and enjoy my years on this earth. I can certainly do that by being academically minded, I could leave a load of academic papers and theories as my legacy.
> 
> However, making things is what I enjoy, even Lego.


I'm totally with you on this Bill (well apart from the Lego) I also love building stuff. I also studied all through my teens, twenties and early thirties stopping at a Masters but was almost tempted by my tutor to do a PhD but I had a growing business to run so declined. Of all the studying I've done the MBA at Lancaster Uni was by a huge measure the most enjoyable but hardest work I've ever done; it really grew me academically. Then after many years in business I had enough of the rat race and retired early to focus on what really excites me, my small holding, my old Landrover Defender and now my re-vitalised interest in wood working. Life is for living and b*gger the fact that the neighbour now has a better car than you!


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## Jacob

Thinking about what course I'd do if I could. Off to the woods with Jogge Sundqvist! Nothing on at the mo but he normally does summer courses and also travels to events/camps etc.
It translates if you find the right button!








Surolle


Jögge Sundqvist är slöjdare och arbetar med förkärlek i rått och torrt trä med handverktyg. Han tillverkar objekt i trä med funktion och estetik förankrad i en djup slöjdtradition. Kallar sig s u r o l l e , ett folkkonstnärligt alter ego. Jögge är tionde generationens slöjdare och starkt...



www.surolle.se


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## AJB Temple

Interesting topic and opinions. The pursuit of knowledge and skill is worthwhile in itself. I've done a few courses (violin making in Cremona, knife making in Japan for example) and looked at doing a long fine furniture course during my sabbatical. So I looked around and one problem that was significant for me, perhaps you too, was finding a course that is suitable for my level. I suspect this may be true of a number of enthusiasts who post on this and other wood forums. 

I'm not a beginner. There are some things I can do very well, accurately and quickly. I can visualise and design. But am _not_ an expert at any skill. With wide interests it is hard to narrow down skill acquisition that will be both satisfying and useful, and to find a course that can readily accommodate the level you are already at. 

The other issue I find is the limit factor. In my case my other pastime is playing classical piano. I've had a lot of training and studied with some expert people. And there lies the rub: once you come across someone who is truly expert (either through work or being gifted as well as work), it is often apparent (to me anyway) that I could practise for a hundred years and still not be as good. 

(PhD by the way is a right slog!).


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## paulrbarnard

I’ve done a few courses with different people. My favourite was Garrett Hack, I got a very nice colonial inspired hall table out of that and some nice encouragement to take furniture making up full time. Unfortunately a six figure salary in technology was paying the mortgage and supporting two kids and a non working wife so it was a too big a leap of faith for me. I also did a couple of sessions with Rob Cosman who’s skills tend to get hidden behind the salesman...

the point I want to make though is that learning is an enjoyment in itself. Spending time with some one who is prepared to share their knowledge and help you develop your skills it great. It can become an obsession though  don’t fall into the trap of spending too much energy on achieving perfection at the expense of getting a result. A finished project with imperfections that only you or some other perfectionist will see has more value to others than a pile of perfect dovetail test corners.


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## billw

Oh I’m deffo not going to fall into the perfectionist trap lol (see any of my threads about stuff I’ve made) 

I think my core aim is to have the opportunity to learn or improve skills ( more the former) in a more structured environment than my garage. I tend to feed off enthusiasm and being around people who were going through the same process would benefit me hugely.


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## mikej460

I assume you'll still have a workshop wherever you end up?

btw 2 cats is nothing - we've got 8 of mummy's little darlings


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## billw

mikej460 said:


> I assume you'll still have a workshop wherever you end up?
> 
> btw 2 cats is nothing - we've got 8 of mummy's little darlings


Yeah my main criteria for a new property is workshop space, so far I’ve found that it’s a tough ask.

eight? I’m jealous!


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## mikej460

billw said:


> Yeah my main criteria for a new property is workshop space, so far I’ve found that it’s a tough ask.
> 
> eight? I’m jealous!


They're Maine Coons, my wife shows them Coonspiracy Maine Coons – Maine Coon Cats and Kittens although I've just noticed she's changed the website after she decided to stop breeding and it's gone a bit Pete Tong. All the gibberish after their names isn't down to any academic achievement or military heroism, they're cat show titles.

Eight is too many as they (that is we - I do swear at them on a daily basis) don't get on and every room has cat stuff in it, we don't have carpets just cat hair yet we do have 3 vacuum cleaners. They rule the place I so need a new, warm workshop with a comfy chair to relax in with a nice cup of tea without being pounced on or stunk out.


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## Felix

AJB Temple said:


> The other issue I find is the limit factor. In my case my other pastime is playing classical piano. I've had a lot of training and studied with some expert people. And there lies the rub: once you come across someone who is truly expert (either through work or being gifted as well as work), it is often apparent (to me anyway) that I could practise for a hundred years and still not be as good.


I've never understood this mindset. Let me ask you a question - can you play Beethoven's No 1 Piano concerto? Can you play it as well as Alice Sara Ott?

If the answer is yes to the first and no to the second, would you stop playing the piano? If you can play the concerto do you enjoy playing it? If you do why does it matter whether you can play as good as her or not - it's all about your enjoyment of doing something you like doing.

Yes, it's good to aim high, but there are very few people who reach the absolute pinnacle of their chosen hobby/career. 

Just enjoy doing what you like doing - some people are just naturally gifted - and you just have to admire those that have it.....and dream

Cheers
Dean


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## Felix

mikej460 said:


> every room has cat stuff in it


Have you been peering through my windows?


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## philip sewell

I did a short course with David Charlesworth probably 20 years ago now which was very good. Might be worth looking at.


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## altennis

I have done some of the short courses that John Lloyd offers and found them really good. He is a great tutor and has a good workshop set up. If you want to try something a little different Peter Lanyon in Devon runs week long green woodworking courses, with accommodation available a walking distance away, which makes a great woodworking holiday. Also a great tutor and makes some lovely contemporary furniture.


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## samhay

OP - What subject would you be doing postgraduate research in if you stick with your current/old plan? 
If this is learning for learning's sake, a PhD would be a mistake. If you enjoy the subject, it's an enjoyable slog, but doesn't leave much room for hobbies. 
If you have some flexibility in terms of the subject matter, can you work woodworking into it?


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## Jacob

samhay said:


> OP - What subject would you be doing postgraduate research in if you stick with your current/old plan?
> If this is learning for learning's sake, a PhD would be a mistake. If you enjoy the subject, it's an enjoyable slog, but doesn't leave much room for hobbies.
> If you have some flexibility in terms of the subject matter, can you work woodworking into it?


Use of wood and carbon sequestration? That could make a fun PhD! A quick google shows that it's a hot topic all over the place.








Carbon sequestration in wood products: a method for attribution to multiple parties


When forest is harvested some of the forest carbon ends up in wood products. If the forest is managed so that the standing stock of the forest remains…




www.sciencedirect.com


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## deema

I think in your position, if money isn’t an issue or looking after a house, I would seriously consider becoming a journey man. Working for the best people I could find. Having said that, I’ve not comeacross anyone I couldn’t learn something from. I might be wrong, but I think there are only three things basically you need.
A knowledge of wood and it’s nature
A knowledge of aesthetics and what what works.
A practical knowledge of joints and prep.

The refining of those skills takes a lifetime, and I think that what sets the truly inspiring makers apart is the creative part of applying the basic to make something people highly desire. The creativity isn’t something I believe that can be taught.


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## billw

samhay said:


> OP - What subject would you be doing postgraduate research in if you stick with your current/old plan?
> If this is learning for learning's sake, a PhD would be a mistake. If you enjoy the subject, it's an enjoyable slog, but doesn't leave much room for hobbies.
> If you have some flexibility in terms of the subject matter, can you work woodworking into it?



My plans are to go into studying international security and diplomacy, it's a subject I enjoy rather than have much experience in since my undergraduate is business related. I realise it would be a tough three years, which is why I'm hoping that a year in woodworking would give me a break from academia - I'd probably still go on to further education afterwards but realise it would seriously impede my workshop time, but also that workshop time would be far more productive if I'd been on a course.


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## AJB Temple

Thanks for being so judgemental

_


bowmaster said:



I've never understood this mindset. Let me ask you a question - can you play Beethoven's No 1 Piano concerto? Can you play it as well as Alice Sara Ott?

If the answer is yes to the first and no to the second, would you stop playing the piano? If you can play the concerto do you enjoy playing it? If you do why does it matter whether you can play as good as her or not - it's all about your enjoyment of doing something you like doing.

Yes, it's good to aim high, but there are very few people who reach the absolute pinnacle of their chosen hobby/career.

Just enjoy doing what you like doing - some people are just naturally gifted - and you just have to admire those that have it.....and dream

Cheers
Dean

Click to expand...

_
I was not asking you to understand a mindset or to lecture me. We are all different. It is not up to you to judge what matters to me or to decide "what it's all about" for me.


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## Jacob

AJB Temple said:


> ......
> 
> The other issue I find is the limit factor. In my case my other pastime is playing classical piano. I've had a lot of training and studied with some expert people. And there lies the rub: once you come across someone who is truly expert (either through work or being gifted as well as work), it is often apparent (to me anyway) that I could practise for a hundred years and still not be as good.
> ......


My parents played violin and piano to some sort of standard but never brilliantly. This led them to believe that they were no good at music.
They both listened to and enjoyed a wide range of music including popular stuff, but were utterly inhibited about having a go themselves even though my mum often said she wished she could play the piano for fun in a pub and ditto my dad was into irish music.
They could have done it easily if they hadn't been so inhibited by formal but 'elitist' training.
A lot of people fall into this trap, in crafts and many other areas too.


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## billw

Jacob said:


> My parents played violin and piano to some sort of standard but never brilliantly. This led them to believe that they were no good at music.
> They both listened to and enjoyed a wide range of music including popular stuff, but were utterly inhibited about having a go themselves even though my mum often said she wished she could play the piano for fun in a pub and ditto my dad was into irish music.
> They could have done it easily if they hadn't been so inhibited by formal training.
> A lot of people fall into this trap, in crafts and many other areas too.



Interesting take on it. I think personally if I was taught by someone and I could be as good as them, I'd wonder how good I could be.....but with no benchmark how would I know? At least if the teacher is exceptional you'll know when you've reached your limit. Now, maybe that competitive psyche could kick in, or maybe you'd rationalise it.

If I played football in the park with Lionel Messi, it's not like that would stop me playing football ever again because I was rubbish against him.


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## Jacob

billw said:


> Interesting take on it. I think personally if I was taught by someone and I could be as good as them, I'd wonder how good I could be.....but with no benchmark how would I know? At least if the teacher is exceptional you'll know when you've reached your limit. Now, maybe that competitive psyche could kick in, or maybe you'd rationalise it.
> 
> If I played football in the park with Lionel Messi, it's not like that would stop me playing football ever again because I was rubbish against him.


I actually confirmed my mum's low self opinion by buying her a book of Fats Waller tunes. I didn't know any better but these were transcriptions of his actual playing and hence technically difficult and needing top-notch sight reading skills, which I don't imagine Fats himself would have had (could be wrong). Put her right off!
What I _should_ have bought was a few of those one shilling sheets of pop (of her day) which have the words, melody, a piano accompaniment, guitar/ukelele chords and fret diagrams and highly accessible even to beginners. They might even have been tempted into buying a ukelele each!
Not sure how this translates into woodwork, but it might!


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## Mark Karacsonyi

Learning is always good. Once did a green woodworking course at living wood. Mike Abbott is a great teacher. Very different from my regular workload of cabinet making and restoration works.

My retirement plan is to turn to teaching. Maybe write a book or two.


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## Spectric

All I can say is that if the classroom courses are anything like the sets of DVD's on Bandsaws and thickness/planers that I have watched multiple times then you will be getting a first rate education in woodworking from someone who has an obvious passion for the subject and in my opinion takes safety to a new level, I suppose you have to in an educational enviroment as it is not good advertising if all your students are reconised through missing digits!


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## samhay

billw said:


> My plans are to go into studying international security and diplomacy, it's a subject I enjoy rather than have much experience in since my undergraduate is business related. I realise it would be a tough three years, which is why I'm hoping that a year in woodworking would give me a break from academia - I'd probably still go on to further education afterwards but realise it would seriously impede my workshop time, but also that workshop time would be far more productive if I'd been on a course.



A year of woodworking as a sabbatical sounds good if you can afford it.

Most PhD's (in the UK) take 4 years these days and in the sciences students usually arrange funding about 9 months ahead of start date. It may be very different in your field, but don't leave it until the last minute.


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## samhay

. double post.


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## Droogs

Spectric said:


> it is not good advertising if all your students are reconised through missing digits!


Oh what a great name for a carpentry school "The 9 fingered Attelier" sounds very cool in francious "l'atelier à neuf doigts"


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## Jacob

I had a look at the "world famous" Chippendale International School of Furniture site.
Never heard of them myself though the name is oddly familiar  . Furniture Making Course | Chippendale School
Their 30 week course has a spectacular syllabus - which to be realistic can only be a very brief taster of each of the topics. Their "up to 1400 hours bench time" looks impressive - nearly 50 hours a week on top of all that other stuff!
"....aimed at those who want to make fine furniture design their career" ?..... 
"or to learn a professional skill in retirement". Sounds more like it! The money for a start.
And why not, if that's what turns you on.
I'd go C&G myself.


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## Droogs

From some of the students I have spoken to from there, they average a 12 hour day at the school (voluntarily) most at the bench. The standard of work I have seen is top notch.

edit to correct typo - hour


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## Blackswanwood

Droogs said:


> From some of the students I have spoken to from there, they average a 12 hour day at the school (voluntarily) most at the bench. The standard of work I have seen is top notch.


While I am unable to benchmark against other schools I would echo that. I know someone whose partner dropped out of the rat race and trained there.


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## clogs

AJBhope this interests you,
I got stuck in Bordaux train station.....in the main concourse area was a grand piano, screw'd down...hahaha....
it was free to anyone that wanted to play.....
over the hour's I had to wait for my train many people played, some great and some not so....
but after they stood up everyone clap'd and cheared.....
it made a most pleasant afternoon for me and many others.....
just wish I could play....anything.....I get a good noise out of my bandsaw blade if that counts.....
my time over again, perhaps I'd make the effort....easy looking back.....


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## Jacob

clogs said:


> AJBhope this interests you,
> I got stuck in Bordaux train station.....in the main concourse area was a grand piano, screw'd down...hahaha....
> it was free to anyone that wanted to play.....
> over the hour's I had to wait for my train many people played, some great and some not so....
> but after they stood up everyone clap'd and cheared.....
> it made a most pleasant afternoon for me and many others.....
> just wish I could play....anything.....I get a good noise out of my bandsaw blade if that counts.....
> my time over again, perhaps I'd make the effort....easy looking back.....


Something I'm learning belatedly (guitar, banjo); to play something simple but well, pleases an audience a thousand times more than playing something difficult badly. PS that would apply to making wooden things too! Gone the full circle!
n.b. it's never too late to start (I'm told)


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## Skydivermel

mikej460 said:


> If money isn't an issue Bill then I'd go with the school that gives you the most personal satisfaction and skill development. I did an evening class at Rycotewood in Thame Rycotewood Furniture | Furniture Making College | Oxfordshire during the early 2000's and really enjoyed it. I started with virtually no wood working knowledge, having been trained as an Engineer. The tuition was excellent and I learnt a lot but sadly they closed it down and moved it to Oxford. I followed them there but the tuition was poor in comparison as our tutor left and the instructor/student ratio was far too big, so I left, I don't know what it is like now.



Like Mike I trained at Rycotewood in the mid to late 80's doing the Antique Restoration HND course. We had 2 very good instructors whom were very passionate about woodwork and antique furniture. I decided that I would do antique restoration and earn my living that way. I realised after a couple of years that the only people making any real money were the antique dealers. As an example one dealer in Essex brought me a 1800's bonheur du jour to restore. (It was in a poor state) I asked him how much he wanted to spend and he said about £60. I told him I could wax it for him for that price and he promptly took it off to some other mug to restore for him. 

After 4 years as a restorer I started to buy furniture at auction and restore and sell myself. I earnt far more money that way than just restoring. I later trained as a mechanical engineer which I've been doing since and I'm due to retire next year whereby I'll likely go back to buying, restoring and selling antique bits to keep the beer tokens coming in.


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## thetyreman

Jacob said:


> My parents played violin and piano to some sort of standard but never brilliantly. This led them to believe that they were no good at music.
> They both listened to and enjoyed a wide range of music including popular stuff, but were utterly inhibited about having a go themselves even though my mum often said she wished she could play the piano for fun in a pub and ditto my dad was into irish music.
> They could have done it easily if they hadn't been so inhibited by formal but 'elitist' training.
> A lot of people fall into this trap, in crafts and many other areas too.



I was sold this lie as well having come from a working class background, it is sadly still around now, and in schools they are gradually getting rid of the arts, my careers advisor told me in secondary school that music isn't even a career, even though I proved them wrong and became a guitar teacher, you are spot on about some music teachers being elitist, most people still think music is a useless subject and should be scrapped  I find it very sad.


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## Sean33

billw said:


> Now, I KNOW Peter is on this forum, but it's perhaps the best place to ask. Peter's probably gone pale reading this hoping that I'm not planning on turning up but.....
> 
> I finish my degree in June, and if my property sells before August I am left with just the responsibility of two cats. My current plan involves doing a Masters and PhD (yes, I am definitely trying to avoid real work ever again) but if I have the cash then I'd much rather go and improve my skills with wood.
> 
> So, has anyone done the course? I would love to hear any views. Obviously you're free to PM me if you'd rather keep them confidential (even if good).
> 
> I should mention that I've looked at other courses too, I went to meet David Savage with the intention of going to Rowden, but obviously he's sadly passed away and whilst I am in no doubt that the school and its staff is good, the loss of its mentor does affect consideration. Others I've looked at include Williams & Cleal, Marc Fish, Waters & Acland, and John Lloyd.


I did a course a fair few years ago with John Lloyd. From memory there was only max 5 to a class, I found it excellent and when/if i get the time i would go back and do a short course on french polishing with him. I met a few of the guys that had done the long course with him as he did a service where you could rent a bench/machinery etc and would be at hand to help, dont know if others do this but thought it was excellent service and previous students must have thought so to. hope this helps


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## AJB Temple

On the wood course front, my most salutary lesson was a really old guy in Cremona. Only spoke Italian. He was able to pick out tone wood by tapping it and listening to it and knowing what would make the finest instrument. Other violin makers were in awe of his ability and described it as God given. He was very unassuming.

Music is a parallel in a way. I was taught classical piano as a small child, but as is often the case my various teachers and parents were focussed on passing exams. Playing by ear was not taught, which is a pity. When wheeled out by my parents to "play" for friends I was incapable without the music. I was dependent on process in a way. I gave up piano after passing grade 8. But I took up guitar (rock, folk, country - anything), entirely by ear. It's a lot easier mind you.

As an adult, in my 30's, my wife to be bought me a small grand piano as a surprise birthday present and I took it up again. My aim was the equivalent of becoming a fine furniture maker, but in music for me this was a Performance Diploma. The difficulty is miles above Grade 8 and I was being taught by a Russian Concert Pianist. And this was also a salutary lesson. Among other things I was learning the Piano Concerto in A minor by Grieg. Evgenia sat listening to a tricky passage. Then she demonstrated how she wanted it played. Then demonstrated exactly how I was doing it. In passing she said she had learnt and memorised this piece when she was 11, so she was a bit rusty ( She was in her early thirties I would guess). The Russian music conservatories cherry pick talented kids, chuck out everyone else, and the regime is brutally focussed. So it was clear where the talent lay.... and it was missing when my bum was depressing the piano stool.

I enjoy making things in wood but I know my limits. I enjoy playing piano and I know my limits. The journey is sometimes better than the arrival, especially when the destination is always out of reach.

It is still best to get the very best teachers we can find and afford.


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## Shinyone

I’m a shocking short course junkie - I’ve done various courses with Peter Sefton, David Charlesworth, Chris Tribe, Andrew Crawford and Mark Farrelly (both box makers), John Lloyd, and Ciaràn Ó Braonáin (who makes lovely gun boxes and teaches absolute beginners very well). I had some lovely days learning about shaker boxes from Richard Gibson, and steam bending from Charlie Whinney, and I’m currently looking forward to learning about Windsor chair making from James Mursell.

It would take a much longer post to give a detailed account of the highs and lows of each - but in summary, I’ve learned a great deal, and I think there has been value in experiencing a wide variety of workshops and approaches. I adore David C, respect and admire Peter, Chris and John, and am hugely grateful to all my tutors for their endless patience in the face of my endless questions and cock-ups. I now know that as a hobbyist I prefer to work with my hands rather than machines (it’s the journey for me, more than the destination), although I have a fine selection of machines in my shop that make life easier when it matters. I know how I like to sharpen my tools, and I know how to make nice things.

So why do I still pine for a long course? I think what I’m missing is learning to design pieces in a supportive environment, where I can bounce my ideas off other experienced people. I’d love to do Peter’s long course, although I’m also very tempted by Mark Ripley’s advanced furniture-making course at the National Boatbuilding Academy in Lyme Regis. Sadly, the financial and practical implications of either of those put them beyond my reach for the moment - but who knows what the future will bring?


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## johnnyb

tell us about the highs and lows of these courses(maybe in a generalised way as some of the guys you mentioned are posters)it would make a fascinating post tbh.
personally I would love to learn some of the techniques in advanced circular joinery. specifically certain moulding and stuff thats seen. but these technique probably border on the scary.
and there use is very niche tbh.


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## Skingdom

Shinyone said:


> I’m a shocking short course junkie - I’ve done various courses with Peter Sefton, David Charlesworth, Chris Tribe, Andrew Crawford and Mark Farrelly (both box makers), John Lloyd, and Ciaràn Ó Braonáin (who makes lovely gun boxes and teaches absolute beginners very well). I had some lovely days learning about shaker boxes from Richard Gibson, and steam bending from Charlie Whinney, and I’m currently looking forward to learning about Windsor chair making from James Mursell.
> 
> It would take a much longer post to give a detailed account of the highs and lows of each - but in summary, I’ve learned a great deal, and I think there has been value in experiencing a wide variety of workshops and approaches. I adore David C, respect and admire Peter, Chris and John, and am hugely grateful to all my tutors for their endless patience in the face of my endless questions and cock-ups. I now know that as a hobbyist I prefer to work with my hands rather than machines (it’s the journey for me, more than the destination), although I have a fine selection of machines in my shop that make life easier when it matters. I know how I like to sharpen my tools, and I know how to make nice things.
> 
> So why do I still pine for a long course? I think what I’m missing is learning to design pieces in a supportive environment, where I can bounce my ideas off other experienced people. I’d love to do Peter’s long course, although I’m also very tempted by Mark Ripley’s advanced furniture-making course at the National Boatbuilding Academy in Lyme Regis. Sadly, the financial and practical implications of either of those put them beyond my reach for the moment - but who knows what the future will bring?


those courses actually helped you?! I am pretty new to this domain and I am also looking to take some courses


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## msparker

+1, would be great to get some thoughts on the various short courses which are much more feasible time and money-wise!


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## MikeK

Skingdom said:


> those courses actually helped you?! I am pretty new to this domain and I am also looking to take some courses





msparker said:


> +1, would be great to get some thoughts on the various short courses which are much more feasible time and money-wise!




I attended four of David Charlesworth's week-long courses and recommend them:

Tool Tuning (should be the first course taken)
Dovetailing
Mortise and Tenon
Drawer Making
I was fortunate to be his only student for the Tool Tuning and Dovetailing courses and one of two students for the other two courses.


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