# Canada 50C/120F



## dannyr (1 Jul 2021)

Are you ready for this?

Not the Mojave or Sahara, but Canada, and northern Siberia has the same temp at present.

Get ready for extensive fires.

No doubt global warming.

Even the much-despised experts who warned us cannot believe how high it went.

Caused by us.

What to do?

(yes I know it was a fraction below 50C, and above 120F, but rounded - absolutely smashed record)


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## Rorschach (1 Jul 2021)

Of course, it must be climate change


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## selectortone (1 Jul 2021)

Uh-oh.


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## danst96 (1 Jul 2021)

Climate change is a natural cycle. Us humans think we control everything when in reality we are just puny in the grand scheme of things.


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## Terry - Somerset (1 Jul 2021)

This is clearly an unusual event, but the more data collected from more different locations, the more likely it is that new extremes will be identified.

100 years ago these would have been almost completely devoid of climate measuring equpiment. Few people about too. Only in the last 20-40 years has remote sensing and monitoring equipment been deployed to capture local data.


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## Yojevol (1 Jul 2021)

Here is what is happening:-










It's a known phenomena but its severity and frequency will increase with global warming, as with all other 'extreme' events.
Brian


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## D_W (2 Jul 2021)

dannyr said:


> Are you ready for this?
> 
> Not the Mojave or Sahara, but Canada, and northern Siberia has the same temp at present.
> 
> ...



portland 115F one day, 85F the next. was the second day global cooling? i think both had more to do with prevailing winds.


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## sirocosm (2 Jul 2021)

I heard that it broke the Canadian record, but I was quite surprised to hear the previous Canadian record was in Yellow Grass Saskatchewan at 45C in 1937, which also gets down as low as -45C in the winter. I grew up close to there in Regina, which has a record high of 44C and a record low of -50C.


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## Trainee neophyte (2 Jul 2021)

"Climate" is usually thought of as a 30 year period as a minimum. The weather in Canada is quite warm at the moment, but it's not the same thing as the climate.


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## D_W (2 Jul 2021)

Dry plains areas in south central canada or the northern areas of the US below it are not a place to go if you don't like:
* heat (sometimes extreme) 
* cold (sometimes extreme) 
* high winds (sometimes extreme)

A whole lot of intense sunlight there, often without much moisture in the air. In the winter, the latter allows the heat to escape at night and in the summer, to build in the day or over days. 

Not that uncommon for it to be -30F in those places in winter and then a couple of days later, +20F or even close to freezing. 

Minot north dakota has experienced well over 100F in 5 different months and -30s and -40s C in five different months.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> This is clearly an unusual event, but the more data collected from more different locations, the more likely it is that new extremes will be identified.
> 
> 100 years ago these would have been almost completely devoid of climate measuring equpiment. Few people about too. Only in the last 20-40 years has remote sensing and monitoring equipment been deployed to capture local data.


Yebbut people might have noticed if whole communities and small towns were being wiped out by fire. Sensitive equipment not needed on that front!








California and Oregon 2020 wildfires in maps, graphics and images


A visual guide to the wildfires ravaging California, Oregon and other western states.



www.bbc.co.uk












Canadian village 'devastated' by wildfires a day after temperatures topped 121 degrees


The Canadian village that set an all-time national heat record this week has been "devastated" by a fast-moving wildfire that engulfed the small town "within minutes" following an intense heat wave, officials said Thursday.




edition.cnn.com


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> "Climate" is usually thought of as a 30 year period as a minimum. The weather in Canada is quite warm at the moment, but it's not the same thing as the climate.


We have 140 years of data and a very obvious steep rise in the last 40 years or so. 
"According to NOAA's 2020 Annual Climate Report the combined land and ocean temperature has increased at an average rate of 0.13 degrees Fahrenheit ( 0.08 degrees Celsius) per decade since 1880; however, the average rate of increase since 1981 (0.18°C / 0.32°F) has been more than twice that rate."


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## Keith 66 (3 Jul 2021)

It is interesting that after the 911 attacks in New York that there was an immediate suspension of air travel across the USA & this was said by scientists to account for a 2 degree jump in temperature in the following days. This has been put down to the contrails from jets at high altitude reflecting sunlight back into space.
Since the pandemic there has been a similar reduction in air travel but worldwide & for far longer.
Where we live in Essex Uk the sky used to be crisscrossed by contrails constantly & our local airport was very busy.
Not now, clear skies & when we see an aircraft it is unusual. I wonder what the effect on climate is?


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Keith 66 said:


> It is interesting that after the 911 attacks in New York that there was an immediate suspension of air travel across the USA & this was said by scientists to account for a 2 degree jump in temperature in the following days. This has been put down to the contrails from jets at high altitude reflecting sunlight back into space.
> Since the pandemic there has been a similar reduction in air travel but worldwide & for far longer.
> Where we live in Essex Uk the sky used to be crisscrossed by contrails constantly & our local airport was very busy.
> Not now, clear skies & when we see an aircraft it is unusual. I wonder what the effect on climate is?


Same here we are under the approach to Manchester and it used to be normal to see a lot of vapour trails all going that way.
I would have thought clearer skies means lower temps as heat radiates away without hitting the blanket of cloud and vapour trails. Maybe it balances out.
PS It says here contrails increase air temp and vice versa How Airplane Contrails Are Helping Make the Planet Warmer


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## RobinBHM (3 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Of course, it must be climate change


It's funny how right wing libertarians all follow the same path:

Pro brexit
Anti lockdown
Climate change sceptics.

I suppose it's not surprising, Brexit was driven by disaster capitalists and fossil fuel interests.


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## RobinBHM (3 Jul 2021)

dannyr said:


> Are you ready for this?
> 
> Not the Mojave or Sahara, but Canada, and northern Siberia has the same temp at present.
> 
> ...



I spent a few months in Toronto back in the 1990s, it was hot 90f daytime 75f at night.
Hot and sticky.


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## Rorschach (3 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It's funny how right wing libertarians all follow the same path:
> 
> Pro brexit
> Anti lockdown
> ...



Long term trends, could definitely be climate change, I am not denying that is exists, it's always existed. Odd one off events, a lot more sceptical. I've seen snow in Devon in June, global warming? Climate change? or just freak event?


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Long term trends, could definitely be climate change, I am not denying that is exists, it's always existed.


Not significantly for the last 11000 years: Holocene - Wikipedia


> Odd one off events, a lot more sceptical. I've seen snow in Devon in June, global warming? Climate change? or just freak event?


Repeated freak events suggests a trend. It's simpler than you think.


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## Rorschach (3 Jul 2021)

11000 years is nothing in the life cycle of climate and the planet in general. We've got threads on Brexit that are older than that.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> 11000 years is nothing in the life cycle of climate and the planet in general.


Dead right. But highly significant in terms of human life on the planet. 
It's even argued that human activity might even have brought about the holocene, and now be in the process of ending it with a new era The Age of Humans: Evolutionary Perspectives on the Anthropocene | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program


> We've got threads on Brexit that are older than that.


Yep. But nothing lasts forever!


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## Terry - Somerset (3 Jul 2021)

Lytton in Canada, the subject of a catastrophic fire in the last few days as tempratues hit 50C was established in 1858 and is home to 249 people.

Although the area was inhabited before then and it was on the route to a gold rush, I suspect that any major (climate) events prior to 1800 would have been undocumented folklore. I would also guess that it is only in the last 60-100 years that the village was "connected".

Wikipedia - record temperature in June in last 100 years was 49.6C and describes the climate:

_Lytton has the driest summers in the interior of British Columbia, and indeed, one of the driest summers of all places in Canada_

I am not a climate change denier - but this does reinforce the need for objectivity noting that one extreme event (very close to previous extremes) does not prove anthing.


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## thetyreman (3 Jul 2021)

I don't see what we can honestly do to prevent it or stop it from happening.


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## Rorschach (3 Jul 2021)

Whatever happens with the climate man made or natural we will adapt. Climate change is a slow process, human adaptation happens in a matter of moments comparatively. The faster things change, the faster we improve and adapt. It really is nothing to worry about. Making money from hysteria though, well we all know how easy that is.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

thetyreman said:


> I don't see what we can honestly do to prevent it or stop it from happening.


Actually it's simple in principle; stop using fossil fuels 100% and start planting forests, peat bogs, etc.


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## Spectric (3 Jul 2021)

We can do nothing to slow or stop global warming because our input is nothing compared to other countries, to make real change the biggest contributors need to make positive change now, not going to happen soon enough as too many still think we have time on our side. Even our government is not really taking this seriously and making plenty of noise but still not enough action. Look at housing, something that is currently not energy efficient enough and once built will contribute to global warming for many decades to come yet we are building thousands of these sheds and the government has not changed the building regs to force builders to make the real homes of the future. Then EV's which they seem to be pining an awful lot on to help but they need clean renewable energy to keep them charged, to many holes in the plans and not enough time left to put the brakes on.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Whatever happens with the climate man made or natural we will adapt.


We will be adapted, most likely by drastic reduction in population and human activities


> Climate change is a slow process,


Unfortunately it is quite fast and we may have passed points of no return already


> human adaptation happens in a matter of moments comparatively.


But it's not happening


> The faster things change, the faster we improve and adapt.


Not if they happen too quickly, as we are seeing all around the globe


> It really is nothing to worry about. ....


Don't be silly!


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> ....Then EV's which they seem to be pining an awful lot on ....


I don't think EVs will save us - they'll be a flash in the pan as the world changes far more fundamentally. Basically EVs are just about boys toys, which is why they feature so prominently


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## thetyreman (3 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Actually it's simple in principle; stop using fossil fuels 100% and start planting forests, peat bogs, etc.



not a bad idea, but how will we stop people driving cars? also my local council in stockport are obsessed with cutting down trees, they aren't making any effort at all to protect ancient woodland or trees in town centres, quite the opposite in fact, anyone that complains about it gets ignored.


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## D_W (3 Jul 2021)

Chicken little has arrived.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

thetyreman said:


> not a bad idea, .......


It's the only idea - everything else is just about sorting out the details


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## Rorschach (3 Jul 2021)

This hysteria will still be going on when you old farts are long gone and I am gasping my last on my death bed, there will still be people saying "we only have 10 years to save the planet"


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## Rorschach (3 Jul 2021)

We shouldn't be worrying about our impact here.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Exxon climate revelations are just part of a long history of science misinformation


Research shows how the the tobacco and fossil fuel industries used different tactics to undermine scientific consensus.




theconversation.com


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## D_W (3 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Exxon climate revelations are just part of a long history of science misinformation
> 
> 
> Research shows how the the tobacco and fossil fuel industries used different tactics to undermine scientific consensus.
> ...



Oh, the humanity! Bring back the friendly communists!


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## Inspector (3 Jul 2021)

I was an aircraft mechanic in the late 70's working on Douglas A-26 and DC-6 air tankers. We had bases all over BC and the Kamloops tanker base covered the Lytton area. It was usually the hot spot in the province, being in the high 30s most of the summer with some periods in the low 40's. They never approached the high 40's much less getting to 50C. Forest fires were usually caused by lightning strikes, careless people and their smokes, or deliberate setting of fires and from trains tossing sparks from their wheels and brakes. I was reported last night that a woman saw a small fire by the tracks so that might have caused the fire that took the town.

As for climate change. A billion years ago there was lots more CO2 in the air and the planet was much warmer. Life put that carbon into the ground in the years since and the planet cooled. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that burning dinosaur farts over the last couple hundred years, putting it back into the air, is going to affect the climate. Adding to that the over populating of the planet by us, all wanting more of the resources and our destruction of the forests that lock up carbon, in the short term at least, makes the problem worse. There will continue to be lots of extinctions of plants and animals, worse than the meteor that killed off the dinosaurs, because of us. Best thing for the planet is if 90% of us disappeared. That won't happen so Soylent Green crackers are in our future.

Pete


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## selectortone (3 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> It really is nothing to worry about. Making money from hysteria though, well we all know how easy that is.



You really have no idea do you?

This country depends on weather systems like the Gulf Stream, the North Atlantic Oscillation and all the rest, for the temperate weather that allows us, here on this fragile island stuck out in the Atlantic, to exist in reasonable comfort. Just a few degrees difference could very well entirely disrupt all that. But of course that's science and we all know about experts eh?

As you said in a subsequent post, most of us 'old farts' (thanks for that) will be gone before the worst of it hits, but I have three grandchildren and I'm fearful for the life awaiting them. Not least because of the existence of the many ignorant people like you with their heads in the sand.


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## Rorschach (3 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> You really have no idea do you?
> 
> This country depends on weather systems like the Gulf Stream, the North Atlantic Oscillation and all the rest, for the temperate weather that allows us, here on this fragile island stuck out in the Atlantic, to exist in reasonable comfort. Just a few degrees difference could very well entirely disrupt all that. But of course that's science and we all know about experts eh?
> 
> As you said in a subsequent post, most of us 'old farts' (thanks for that) will be gone before the worst of it hits, but I have three grandchildren and I'm fearful for the life awaiting them. Not least because of the existence of the many ignorant people like you with their heads in the sand.



Two points, what do you foresee happening to our little island that will be so catastrophic? Secondly, what do you think we can do about it, given that any changes need to be global and the most powerful countries in the world don't care, as my previous post showed we account for less than 1% of CO2 emmissions so even if we all stopped producing any CO2 at all, we would have almost zero effect on climate change.


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## selectortone (3 Jul 2021)

One point, answer mine first.


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## Rorschach (3 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> One point, answer mine first.



You didn't ask a question.


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## powertools (3 Jul 2021)

I think that there is a problem with not only with climate change but air quality in general. I fail to understand that if governments are serious about making changes why the likes of Richard Branson and Jeff Bezos are allowed to develop space craft the only purpose of which is to propel wealthy thrill seekers to the edge of space. If we are going to change things we are all going to have to make massive changes to our life styles.


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## Spectric (3 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> We shouldn't be worrying about our impact here.


This is what our government cannot see, we have an economy based on power consumption and as the pandemic has shown our leaders will sacrifice people until the last minute in order to protect it. If the planet was a ship then we are just patching a few small holes whilst many others are just cutting out gaping holes. 


Inspector said:


> Best thing for the planet is if 90% of us disappeared.


Yes the only solution to global warming but this may be on the agenda if you look at scientific predictions for the fourth extinction event.


selectortone said:


> the Gulf Stream


If this goes very wrong there will be a real north south divide, up north could have canadian winter temperatures, no thanks.


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## Spectric (3 Jul 2021)

powertools said:


> If we are going to change things we are all going to have to make massive changes to our life styles.


We need to stop cremations as they must add to global warming or cremate in existing power plants so at least we go out producing a few watts.


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## D_W (3 Jul 2021)

selectortone said:


> You really have no idea do you?
> 
> This country depends on weather systems like the Gulf Stream, the North Atlantic Oscillation and all the rest, for the temperate weather that allows us, here on this fragile island stuck out in the Atlantic, to exist in reasonable comfort. Just a few degrees difference could very well entirely disrupt all that. But of course that's science and we all know about experts eh?
> 
> As you said in a subsequent post, most of us 'old farts' (thanks for that) will be gone before the worst of it hits, but I have three grandchildren and I'm fearful for the life awaiting them. Not least because of the existence of the many ignorant people like you with their heads in the sand.



If you want to go off touting the science of it, get us a prediction of the sea temperature in various places on earth, 10 years from now, with a 2 standard deviation confidence interval and we will check them later. 

Your statement is full of ifs. If without likelihood is worthless. 

Also, describe what happens in country if the temp shifts a few degrees. You lose food production in some volume, and the rest of the world does what....says "no way, we're not sharing with you. starve!!!"

I guarantee we have such a ridiculous food surplus here and more heat will do nothing but exacerbate it - you can have some and we'll stop burning so much for motor fuel.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Two points, what do you foresee happening to our little island that will be so catastrophic?


Most imminent threat is gulf stream change. Earth’s Gulf Stream System at its weakest in over a millennium and sea level rise, plus all the other factors to do with changing weather, farming, transport etc. First signs of things to come The Welsh village being abandoned to the sea because of climate change


> Secondly, what do you think we can do about it, given that any changes need to be global and the most powerful countries in the world don't care,


Change is most likely to come from China. One of the otherwise dubious advantages of a totalitarian regime is that they can make it happen.
_China is already leading in renewable energy production figures. It is currently the world’s largest producer of wind and solar energy,9 and the largest domestic and outbound investor in renewable energy. Four of the world’s five biggest renewable energy deals were made by Chinese companies in 2016. As of early 2017, China owns five of the world’s six largest solar-module manufacturing companies and the world’s largest wind turbine manufacturer. 
The East Is Green: China’s Global Leadership in Renewable Energy. _


> as my previous post showed we account for less than 1% of CO2 emmissions so even if we all stopped producing any CO2 at all, we would have almost zero effect on climate change.


There is no alternative. If we don't all do it it will be forced upon us by circumstances - or by China?


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> We need to stop cremations as they must add to global warming or cremate in existing power plants so at least we go out producing a few watts.


Good idea. Cremations only at home in the woodburner!
Compost heap would be better. Or dropped into peat bogs like Pete Marsh Lindow Man - Wikipedia


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

powertools said:


> I think that there is a problem with not only with climate change but air quality in general. I fail to understand that if governments are serious about making changes why the likes of Richard Branson and Jeff Bezos are allowed to develop space craft the only purpose of which is to propel wealthy thrill seekers to the edge of space. If we are going to change things we are all going to have to make massive changes to our life styles.


Absolutely. And it won't just be about driving around in posh new EVs!


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## Spectric (3 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Good idea. Cremations only at home in the woodburner!


Yes much better than having public ones in car parks like in India, think of all that wasted energy just going up in smoke. Has anyone any idea of the calorific value for a human, and if they are obese and lived on junk food so are full of faty deposits then there is even more energy, so rather than having all these scams to pre pay your funeral you could have something like a feedin tarrif for solar panels but instead you get paid for the amount of energy you generate during your cremation that pays towards the cost.


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes much better than having public ones in car parks like in India, think of all that wasted energy just going up in smoke. Has anyone any idea of the calorific value for a human, and if they are obese and lived on junk food so are full of faty deposits then there is even more energy, so rather than having all these scams to pre pay your funeral you could have something like a feedin tarrif for solar panels but instead you get paid for the amount of energy you generate during your cremation that pays towards the cost.


For a woodburner you'd need to dry them out first - it's illegal to burn undried fuel.
Might be simpler to go organic and leave them out in a quiet place for the crows and other carrion eaters.


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## RobinBHM (3 Jul 2021)

Given the rubbish summer the UK is having, this global warming isn't coming up to scratch.


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2021)

thetyreman said:


> not a bad idea, but how will we stop people driving cars? also my local council in stockport are obsessed with cutting down trees, they aren't making any effort at all to protect ancient woodland or trees in town centres, quite the opposite in fact, anyone that complains about it gets ignored.











Stockport Green Party







stockport.greenparty.org.uk


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Given the rubbish summer the UK is having, this global warming isn't coming up to scratch.


Thats why it's called climate "*change". "*Global warming" just confuses the trumptards and their ilk.
In fact if the gulf stream changes rubbish summers and hard winters will become normal - we are not far off the latitude of Greenland. It's the gulf stream which gives us a very moderate climate, compared even to Europe.


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## Rorschach (4 Jul 2021)

It's currently raining and I am wearing a hoodie. I was told I would get weather like the south of France but without the awful French. I'm gonna go burn some tyres and cut up some old fridges, see if that helps.


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> It's currently raining and I am wearing a hoodie. I was told I would get weather like the south of France but without the awful French. I'm gonna go burn some tyres and cut up some old fridges, see if that helps.


More likely Greenland than south of France. Maybe make a kayak out of skins, and a little harpoon? Look up recipes for seal fat and puffin soup.


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## Spectric (4 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> it's illegal to burn undried fuel.


Never knew that, is it a case of safety or pollution?


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Never knew that, is it a case of safety or pollution?


New regs about wood burning stoves - not sure if they are in yet but fuel will have to be dried to a specific level. It's about pollution and incomplete combustion etc.
Nor sure about drying cadavers - I know some dry old sticks though!


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## Spectric (4 Jul 2021)

So this must mean a change to cremations, you cannot use even more energy to pre dry a body before burning even if you drain all the fluids first, so either use as fuel or freeze and shatter.


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## D_W (4 Jul 2021)

Jacob said:


> Thats why it's called climate "*change". "*Global warming" just confuses the trumptards and their ilk.
> In fact if the gulf stream changes rubbish summers and hard winters will become normal - we are not far off the latitude of Greenland. It's the gulf stream which gives us a very moderate climate, compared even to Europe.



Brand it as widely as you can so that you can claim as much henny penny stuff as possible!

It appears the earth is warming. I guess any other change that you can lump in can be turned into a taxpayer funded grant. If you're trying to put current cool temperatures on the warming, you're loony, though.


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## Anthraquinone (4 Jul 2021)

There is this thing called the Fermi Paradox

The *Fermi paradox*, named after Italian-American physicist Enrico Fermi, is the apparent contradiction between the lack of evidence for extraterrestrial civilizations and various high estimates for their probability

There have been a lot of explainations put forward but the simplest one may be they all wiped themselves out. Perhaps because of over population, limited resources that cannot possibly support the number of people on the planet and the resultant fight for these resources. Sounds familiar ?

Prpbably very likely. It will not happen in my life time and perhaps not in my childrens but my grand children's ????

We need to reduce the popluation on earth by about 60% to have a chance of surviving - perhaps the next pandemic will sort it out. Something with the infection rate of Covis and the leathality of MERS or SARS ?? 

An interesting problem for the next couple of generations


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## artie (4 Jul 2021)

Anthraquinone said:


> We need to reduce the popluation on earth by about 60% to have a chance of surviving -


Do we really?
How about we look at the way we are living.


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## D_W (4 Jul 2021)

Anthraquinone said:


> We need to reduce the popluation on earth by about 60% to have a chance of surviving..



a strange comment. I don't think the population will have any trouble surviving at the level it's at now.


Anthraquinone said:


> There is this thing called the Fermi Paradox
> 
> The *Fermi paradox*, named after Italian-American physicist Enrico Fermi, is the apparent contradiction between the lack of evidence for extraterrestrial civilizations and various high estimates for their probability
> 
> ...



Seems more likely that nature will wipe us out at some point. As far as life elsewhere, we have no ability to observe it. Not sure how many stars there are, perhaps a septillion? It's not as if we can just drone the planets and take pictures.


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## Daniel2 (4 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> ....Snip,
> As far as life elsewhere, we have no ability to observe it. Not sure how many stars there are, perhaps a septillion? It's not as if we can just drone the planets and take pictures.



But, is that not what we are doing at this very moment, with the Mars Rover ?


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## Spectric (4 Jul 2021)

Strange that the people on a woodworking site can see that overpopulation is a massive issue for the survival of the race but governments either fail to see it or as per usual just see population as cattle to be farmed for taxes and support the economy so play osterich. The biggest threat that may prevent people taking action on climate change and such is actually the "economy" as it is held in such high esteem and the measure of a countries status. Remove materialism and greed then you may get further than using EV's.


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## D_W (4 Jul 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> But, is that not what we are doing at this very moment, with the Mars Rover ?



There's some chance that we'll find primitive life somewhere in the solar system, and we may have the ability to travel to another planet and establish life. This is not remotely similar to traveling to the nearest star or observing something on the nearest star. Proxima centauri is about 110,000 times as far away as mars (several light years away). A group of habitable-zone planets exists about 30 times as far away as proxima centauri), or maybe it's 15.

I just googled to find out from educated people how long it would take to send something to proxima centauri - the google machine says 6300 years unless someone comes up with a better travel method. As many habitable planets as we've found nearby (rock planets in a temperate zone where there could be liquid water on the surface), it seems fairly good odds that something is living or has lived on some of them. If any were formed long in the past with fast burning stars, that's just bad luck.


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## D_W (4 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Strange that the people on a woodworking site can see that overpopulation is a massive issue for the survival of the race but governments either fail to see it or as per usual just see population as cattle to be farmed for taxes and support the economy so play osterich. The biggest threat that may prevent people taking action on climate change and such is actually the "economy" as it is held in such high esteem and the measure of a countries status. Remove materialism and greed then you may get further than using EV's.



Fairly sure if you destroy the economies (and ability to produce or innovate), you'll find yourself the subject of another group that didn't choose to do that. I wouldn't put the insight on this board above anything or anywhere else, nor is it necessarily true that short term suffering is a good trade for a longer-term goal (because the longer-term solution you're aiming for could easily change long before you get there).


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2021)

Anthraquinone said:


> There is this thing called the Fermi Paradox
> 
> The *Fermi paradox*, named after Italian-American physicist Enrico Fermi, is the apparent contradiction between the lack of evidence for extraterrestrial civilizations and various high estimates for their probability
> 
> ...


Fermi Paradox is really the Fermi lack of imagination. He takes an utterly anthropocentric view of life on earth - as he would he is one of them, but there are estimated to be 8.7 million species of life on earth, only one of which is "intelligent" in human terms.
Life we can assume exists elsewhere but we have no reason to assume that we have any special characteristics which would make us more probable on another planet, than say the duck billed platypus or any other of the 8.7 million.
Equally probably that there may be duck billed platypusses out there but no humanoid intelligence at all!


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## RobinBHM (4 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> overpopulation is a massive issue for the survival of the race


I believe current estimates are that population will flatten out when we get to 11 billion

currently its about 7.9 billion


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## Anthraquinone (4 Jul 2021)

Artie
Of course we can but I assuem that by we you are thinking about thye small percentage of the population who live the "1st world " countries. However the majority of the worlds population will strive to have the live style we have and so they should except that there are not the recources on the planet to support. A simple example are ther rare earth elements that are used widely in modern electronics. There is not enough to go round. Perhaps new tech will get around this but that is only one problem. I suspect drinking water will be a major source of conflict in the future.


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## Anthraquinone (4 Jul 2021)

I have seen that 11 billion estimate and it is only an estimate. Can the planet support that many ?? Perhaps if we make better use of the available land and all become vegetarians. But that of course implies there is enough fresh water for irrigation. Perhaps climate change will work in our favour for water but if the world heats up as predicted combined with the inevitable sea level rise a hi=ugh amount of arable land will be lost to production.


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## D_W (4 Jul 2021)

There won't be a shortage of caloric production. We're burning half of the corn crop for fuel in the US and most of the rest goes to feed cows (which probably have 1/8th of the caloric value of the corn when done and are food sensitive. Pigs and chickens, less so) 

In places where you can't grow corn, you can grow wheat, milo, soy, oil seeds, etc. If push came to shove, you could still have meat and B12 production by changing over to chicken and even further, fish farming. 

Not that we want to go to those things entirely. When I was a little kid, 5 -6 billion was posed as a maximum carrying capacity. Now, who knows. 15?


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## Inspector (4 Jul 2021)

If you want to intensive farm we could probably feed 100 billion but you can kiss all the wild spaces everywhere goodbye. 

Pete


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2021)

Over population is a species survival mechanism. It increases likelihood of survival of the species, but not of all the individuals. It's a sign of stress and common throughout the living world.
Good news in other words, but not for many of us individually!


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## artie (4 Jul 2021)

Anthraquinone.
I am indeed talking about the small percentage of the population, "we" who are doing the most damage to the planet.

You say the rest of the population strive to be like us, I think they are/will be brainwashed to be like us. Which I agree is unsustainable.

Is it necessary to live like us, buying a new, phone/laptop/tablet/car/house when there is absolutely nothing wrong with the one we have.

Is it necessary to bathe the entire planet in microwaves so that we can text inane videos to each other and download the latest drivel from hollywood in 30 secs.
The list goes on and on,

Do you really think it a good idea to reduce the population rather than live a more sensible life.

Given a suitable budget I bet Sachi and Sachi could convince the population to be more economical with our precious resources.


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## Selwyn (4 Jul 2021)

artie said:


> Anthraquinone.
> I am indeed talking about the small percentage of the population, "we" who are doing the most damage to the planet.
> 
> You say the rest of the population strive to be like us, I think they are/will be brainwashed to be like us. Which I agree is unsustainable.
> ...



Ironic post!


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## Rorschach (4 Jul 2021)

Today's death figures.


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## Rorschach (4 Jul 2021)

Just noticed this isn't in the controversial forum, probably should be?


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## artie (4 Jul 2021)

*ironic*
(aɪrɒnɪk) or ironical (aɪrɒnɪkəl)
1. ADJECTIVE
When you make an ironic remark, you say something that you do not mean, as a joke.


I meant it.
Every word.


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## Spectric (4 Jul 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I believe current estimates are that population will flatten out when we get to 11 billion


That could be due to starvation as even intensive farming has it's limits or that climate change has caused so many droughts crops have failed.



artie said:


> I am indeed talking about the small percentage of the population, "we" who are doing the most damage to the planet.



That is what has started the problems, it was bad when we went through an industrial revolution but now everyone else wants a lifestyle like "ours" and because they have much larger populations the impact is that much greater, but how can you say you cannot do this if you yourself has. No one can really argue that we are using the worlds resources at an alarming rate and that maybe with a massive lifestyle change then the reduction in population could be less, Artie is so correct in saying " Is it necessary to live like us, buying a new, phone/laptop/tablet/car/house when there is absolutely nothing wrong with the one we have. " This is a lot of us, I have a perfectly good phone but want a new one because I have been told it is better, my car is perfectly ok but it is two years old so will buy another one because I prefer the color of the gearknob and yes lets not forget that great imaginary concept that supports so many sweatshops and child labour, fashion, what a total load of two dangly items. How can wearing something just once have become so accepted, it is taking the throwaway society to new levels of insanity. I suppose looking back the Essex girls had got it right in that " if I am only wearing my knickers for so little time then why waste money on buying them in the first place" so perhaps they should be given some credit for sustainability.


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## D_W (5 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> That could be due to starvation as even intensive farming has it's limits or that climate change has caused so many droughts crops have failed.



The speculation of agricultural droughts is fantasy, but it does seem to come often (it's a fun fear for everyone "what if we starve!!!!!!!!!"). What's more likely is yield per acre will continue to increase. Corn yield per acre at the turn of the century was about 50. 120 years later, it's 4 times as high, but on irrigated land, even higher. I think in England, you may not have seen pivots, but they're common here. How far can they be extended? I don't know, but if there was value in it, the water could be pumped quite a distance from waterways. 

If the value of grain crops go up because we're using them more directly, there will be more irrigation to go along with it. The market for corn and the availability of cheap energy has converted a lot of US marginal acres to productive acres. It seems dopey to me in the US as we heavily subsidize corn production and then require it to be used as a blend in fuel (it's a political buyoff) - and that's coming from someone whose family owned a farm until about 14 months ago. It was good for us, I guess - not great for everyone (we were landowners, so the good to us part came in absurd rent value for land).


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## Cooper (5 Jul 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Today's death figures.


Because you found this Rorschach, does not make it true.
I have elderly friends in Vancouver who tell me people have been dying there because of the incredible heat and they are very worried. I believe them. I suspect that far more deaths would be attributed to climate change if you included the famine and wars for water that are blighting parts of Africa. The important thing is that those of us in a position to lighten our impact on the planet should make the effort.

Many of the respondents to this forum, like me, grew up in the post war years where so many of the things we should do were then the norm. Recycling everything from milk bottle tops, newspapers jumble sales, building materials, saving energy, the list goes on and on (like I do). The progress that technology has brought, which has immeasurably enriched our lives over the last 70 years, does not require consumption to return to pre-pandemic levels.


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## Rorschach (5 Jul 2021)

Cooper said:


> Because you found this Rorschach, does not make it true.



Those are ONS figures


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## Jacob (5 Jul 2021)

".........If we are looking to apportion blame, it is those who deliberately peddled doubt that should be first in line......"








Sixty years of climate change warnings: the signs that were missed (and ignored)


The long read: The effects of ‘weird weather’ were already being felt in the 1960s, but scientists linking fossil fuels with climate change were dismissed as prophets of doom




www.theguardian.com


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## D_W (5 Jul 2021)

convenient to ignore the gloom and doom in the 1970s about uncontrolled cooling. You're pretty good at selecting whatever slice you want to believe, Jacob.


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## alanpo68 (6 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> The speculation of agricultural droughts is fantasy, but it does seem to come often (it's a fun fear for everyone "what if we starve!!!!!!!!!"). What's more likely is yield per acre will continue to increase. Corn yield per acre at the turn of the century was about 50. 120 years later, it's 4 times as high, but on irrigated land, even higher. I think in England, you may not have seen pivots, but they're common here. How far can they be extended? I don't know, but if there was value in it, the water could be pumped quite a distance from waterways.
> 
> If the value of grain crops go up because we're using them more directly, there will be more irrigation to go along with it. The market for corn and the availability of cheap energy has converted a lot of US marginal acres to productive acres. It seems dopey to me in the US as we heavily subsidize corn production and then require it to be used as a blend in fuel (it's a political buyoff) - and that's coming from someone whose family owned a farm until about 14 months ago. It was good for us, I guess - not great for everyone (we were landowners, so the good to us part came in absurd rent value for land).



That may be the case in the USA but agricultural droughts aren't a fantasy in other parts of the World. A pretty good example is the Australian droughts. Or how about vast areas of Africa.

Your post sums up capitalism. Millions of people dying of hunger and the USA is burning food for fuel. Then you talk about if the price goes up then there will be more irrigation. Amazing that money will be found to enable farmers to water crops whilst ridiculous numbers of people across the globe don't even have access to clean drinking water.


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## Jacob (6 Jul 2021)

D_W said:


> convenient to ignore the gloom and doom in the 1970s about uncontrolled cooling. You're pretty good at selecting whatever slice you want to believe, Jacob.


The term is "climate change".
Global "cooling" was a theory back then, I remember reading about it in the Scientific American - I selected the magazine, not the theory.
The theory was that global warming would melt the poles and take colder water and air further towards the equator - as it is doing now with the gulf stream waters. It was thought that snowfall further south would increase the "albedo" effect reflecting solar heat back into space and thereby regulating the climate. In other words; inconvenient but ultimately regulating or buffering global warming.
Sadly this hasn't happened. I don't select the theories. Half of it was right - the gulf stream will cease to have a warming effect on N Atlantic hence global warming will bring about localised cooling as far as we know, but insignificant in terms of global warming overall.
Don't worry about it if you can't understand it.
If you are doubtful about climate change maybe you haven't heard of the heat wave and fires going on in the west of N America?


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## D_W (6 Jul 2021)

Trust me, we have no market for the corn. If there was a market for it, we'd sell it. That's part of the struggle here - we grow more food than the rest of the world wants, and you're confusing food supply problems with political problems. The reason you can't solve those issues in sub saharan africa, etc, is political. You can take the food there, but it won't get to the people in country due to corruption. 

The point of ethanol isn't to burn food. It's to burn the grain that nobody wants for food. Nobody really wants the ethanol, either.


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## dannyr (10 Aug 2022)

that was last summer, which was warm but not heatwave here in the England -- 2022 we have had one heatwave - hereabouts (South Yorks) it smashed records of several hundred years, and a few days later - now - another of longer duration 

central northern Europe the same - records broken all over France (which also has a multi-century history of accurate record-keeping) 

and drought

and I hear it's been a bit warm and dry in USA and China - 

again the question to the climate-change doubters -- all just 'situation normal' ?

so let's see how the next few years go -- I'm really not optimistic


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## woodieallen (11 Aug 2022)

dannyr said:


> that was last summer, which was warm but not heatwave here in the England -- 2022 we have had one heatwave - hereabouts (South Yorks) it smashed records of several hundred years, and a few days later - now - another of longer duration
> 
> central northern Europe the same - records broken all over France (which also has a multi-century history of accurate record-keeping)
> 
> ...


We've left it too late. Not a snowballs' that it won't happen. Christ...just look at what's happening elsewhere? Energy prices. Inflation. A lump of slime running Russia and intent on screwing up the whole world to massage his self-importance.


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## D_W (13 Aug 2022)

woodieallen said:


> We've left it too late. Not a snowballs' that it won't happen. Christ...just look at what's happening elsewhere? Energy prices. Inflation. A lump of slime running Russia and intent on screwing up the whole world to massage his self-importance.



yet it's really never been a better time to be alive vs. now. We have it easier than ever and most of the hand wringing has to do with not wanting to shift efforts 10% on a personal basis. Entitlement. 

Not that it makes Putin acceptable, but there's no guarantee you won't have some dictators trying to create a legacy. Xi appears to be gearing up closing off his citizens and posturing. 

There is a fundamental problem with energy prices, though, but I suppose it assures supply. That is, when there are times of trouble even if there isn't much change in supply, investors flow to energy as a hedge against other appreciating investments. The price is driven up immediately and some fraction of them inevitably lose their shirts later if they are investing as anything other than a hedge - as in speculating like a bitcoiner buying $65k coins. 

As for drought and ag, we'd love it in the US if someone would buy all of the excess food stock that we make, even if just to feed livestock. Anyone starving in the world at this point is a matter of political problems and not lack of food supply.


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## Spectric (13 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Half of it was right - the gulf stream will cease to have a warming effect on N Atlantic hence global warming will bring about localised cooling as far as we know, but insignificant in terms of global warming overall.


Not good for those in west Scotland, places like the gardens at castle kennedy near Stranraer which enjoy the warming from the gulf stream, without that the temperatures would more closely match that of Canada.

I cannot believe that anyone would be questioning climate change now, the evidence is there and no mater how much we try and hide or blame something else for this mess the blame lies firmly with the human race but I can see why some people are not worried because there is no point in worrying about anything that you cannot control and we are incapable of addressing this extinction event but more than happy to talk about it like many did at COP26.


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