# Plane and Chisel Recommendations??



## Mike B (21 Mar 2005)

Hello. My name is Mike and this is my first post to the group. I have joined because I am new to woodworking/furniture making and am trying to get together a set of good quality hand tools and I am hoping that this group may help. Also, it is great to find a group with loads of experience as well as a sense of humour...

So far I have an old Record 05 and a Veritas shoulder plane. What I am now looking for is a No.4 plane for general use, a block plane, and a couple of good chisels.

I have looked at Alf's excellent reviews and like the idea of either the Veritas No.4 or 4.5 LA smoother but cannot decide which - the LA is tempting because with a HA blade it appears it may do both jobs, but is this really the case...

Again Veritas seems great for a block plane. So far the choice is between the Apron plane and the LA block plane but again I'm not sure which may be best for general use - the block has an adj. mouth but is heavier, but then again with the ball handles would I need the No.4 as well...The only review I have seen seems to prefer the apron plane...

Also, which combination makes most sense?? No.4 + apron, No.4 + LA block, 4.5 + apron, 4.5 + LA block, or none of these!!

As for chisels, well I have little idea, but was considering something like the Footprint set of 4 or Kirsch set of 6 from Axminster as a starting point. Or should I be looking at Japanese chisels...??

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Thanks
Mike


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## Aragorn (21 Mar 2005)

Hi Mike. Welcome to the forum.
You'll get plenty of useful answers any minutes now...
Of course, in the meantime you could have a think about _winning _a Lie-Neilsen No 4, details in the second post on this page!


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## Philly (21 Mar 2005)

Hi Mike
Welcome to the Forum!!  
I really recommend the Veritas low angle smoother-it is a dream! I got the hi-angle blade to go with mine too and it covers pretty much every timber you're gonna use.
As to chisels-the 2 cherrys get good reviews and are well priced!
Good luck with your purchases,
Philly


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## Alf (21 Mar 2005)

Welcome, Mike. 



Mike B":2cime119 said:


> So far I have an old Record 05 and a Veritas shoulder plane. What I am now looking for is a No.4 plane for general use, a block plane, and a couple of good chisels... like the idea of either the Veritas No.4 or 4.5 LA smoother but cannot decide which - the LA is tempting because with a HA blade it appears it may do both jobs, but is this really the case...


Yes, it is. Whether you go for the existing smoother, or wait for the heavy smoother, depends on a certain extent on what you class as general work, but certainly a bevel up plane is more flexible than a bevel down. And a bevel up plane without a high angle blade is a tragic waste. :wink:



Mike B":2cime119 said:


> Again Veritas seems great for a block plane. So far the choice is between the Apron plane and the LA block plane but again I'm not sure which may be best for general use - the block has an adj. mouth but is heavier, but then again with the ball handles would I need the No.4 as well...The only review I have seen seems to prefer the apron plane...


Evidence suggests you'll end up with more than one block plane anyway, so don't worry about it. They're both great tools, as are the L-N ones too. My favourite is the L-N bronze #103, fwiw. Very handy little tool.



Mike B":2cime119 said:


> Also, which combination makes most sense?? No.4 + apron, No.4 + LA block, 4.5 + apron, 4.5 + LA block, or none of these!!


Definitely a low angle block, and, erm, well if you can bear to wait for the heavy smooth to come out before you make your decision...? I personally prefer the wider planes, you see. Any way you can try a (bevel down) #4 and #4.5 to see which size you prefer?



Mike B":2cime119 said:


> As for chisels, well I have little idea, but was considering something like the Footprint set of 4 or Kirsch set of 6 from Axminster as a starting point. Or should I be looking at Japanese chisels...??


The Kirschen are always well spoken of, but Japanese are good value for money. Again, if you can try a few out in the hand first, that'll really help.

Cheers, Alf


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## Mike B (21 Mar 2005)

Thanks Alf (and the others!).

Alf - are you suggesting that the 4.5 LA is probably the one out of the two I mentioned, but that there is a heavier and wider version of on its way??

Mike


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## Alf (21 Mar 2005)

Sorry, confusing terminology there. Currently there's the Veritas #164 low angle (or bevel up) smoother with a 2" blade. In the fullness of time, like a few months, a #164 1/2 heavy smoother will join the happy throng with a 2 1/4" wide blade; essentially a bevel up #4 1/2. It's sort of a shorter low angle jack, which is a very good plane indeed. Too bad I'm not allowed to show you the very lovely photo of it that I'm looking at right now... Hopefully, the wonders of the jack will have been sucessfully transplanted to its smoothing brother and it's be a smoothing plane to reckon with. In the fullness of time I hope I'll be reviewing it and we'll find out.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Possumpoint (21 Mar 2005)

Mike B.

First of all, welcome to the forum from another newbie. 

I started out collecting antique planes, both woodies and iron bodies. My lovely wife has given me both the LV LA Smoother and LV LA Jack. IMHO these two are the best planes I own. In particular, the Jack with both the LA and HA blades is the most versatile plane I own. I've used it to smooth, joint and as a miter plane. For the smaller smoother, I have two HA blades. One is ground to give a york pitch and the second for an even higher angle, 60+/- degrees. Prior to getting the HA blades I noticed that the LA blade would get under and lift the grain on some woods. This may also be relative to my poor history of reading the grain.

I can't give you any recommendations on the block planes you mentioned. I do have a new record LA block, that after much work has started to give good results but my favorite is an antique Stanley 9-1/2 that I use all the time.

As for chisels, I have a number of antiques but in addition to that, I have two sets of marple blue handles that were very inexpensive. They give me good service so long as I pause to frequently strop them. Those are the chisels I go to all the time. I've been afraid to go and try some more expensive ones. Right at the moment I don't want to spend the money.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (21 Mar 2005)

Hi Mike

I agree with Alf and Philly about the LV bevel up planes, in particular the LV LA Smoother, which is a #4-size plane. Until I get the chance to try out the Large Smoother, a #4-1/2 size, this is my absolute recommendation. I sleep with mine under my pillow. 

I use mine almost exclusively in HA mode, with a cutting angle of 64 degrees. Very, very little stands in my path when I have this plane in my fist. 

Of the block planes, it will come down to whether you want a large block plane or a smaller one - which one feels more comfortable. I have the LN bronze #102, which is the LA sibling to Alf's #103, a standard angle block plane. The LV Apron plane is very similar, but I have no direct experience with it. I do think that a LA (12 degree bed) is more versatile than a Standard (20 degree bed) since it will cut end grain more easily. I sleep with my #102 under my pillow (Gad, it's getting lumpy in there  ).

With regard to chisels, as much as I love my Japanese ones, I would not recommend these for you. They are really not a good chisel for the inexperienced woodworker since they can be easily damaged and are a little more technical to sharpen. My advise here would be to get a reasonably inexpensive set, ones that will not mind being used roughly. Get used to sharpening and using these and then, when you are ready, get a decent set. Keep the first set for rough work. (No, mine are not under my pillow - what do you take me for?  )

Last point, get a decent sharpening system, and get used to it. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (21 Mar 2005)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> No, mine are not under my pillow - what do you take me for?


With difficulty, I refrain from comment... :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2005)

Hi Mike


Well, I have the LN LA smoother, the LN 4.5 , 3 (  ) LN blcok planes and a set of 2-cherries chisels. I might be able to help you :lol: 

I would go for the standard 4.5 before a LA smoother despite the views of Alf etc. I find the LA smoother does not work as well as the 4.5, possibly due to its very low weight by comparison. this is even true on the shooting board where I often use the 4.5 in preference to the LA :shock: (again due to its weight)

An LA block will be good on end grain

I would suggest the 4.5 + LA block would be a good choice here :wink: 

I have the Kirschen set of 6 from Axminster http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=22471&recno=7 which are good chisels and I like them a lot. I also use Japanese chisels a lot but for different work. I use the Japanese chisels when I want to give them some serious welly with a hammer, and the european pattern chisels for more delicate and refined work.

Remember that the blades on the Japanese chisels are very short

Edited to add that the 2-cherries are very highly polished and as a result the edges are slightly rounded - I have never found this to be a problem although David Charelsworth has critised them for this.


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## Alf (21 Mar 2005)

Tony":l7tjtk5j said:


> I have the LN LA smoother... I find the LA smoother does not work as well as the 4.5, possibly due to its very low weight by comparison.


Can't quibble with that; I've found the same thing. Pretty sure the #164 1/2 isn't going to be suffering from lack of weight though, fwiw... I'll lightly gloss over the issue of comparing the weights of two different sizes of plane...  :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2005)

Alf":ytq5xcy5 said:


> I'll lightly gloss over the issue of comparing the weights of two different sizes of plane...  :wink:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Both classed as smoothers though :wink: :lol: :lol:


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (21 Mar 2005)

> I find the LA smoother does not work as well as the 4.5, possibly due to its very low weight by comparison.



This is a contentious issue, but the following _Wood Central _thread may convince you to view this issue differently. That is, that the weight of the hand plane has little to do with its performance.

Concentrate on the first post (mine) and the reply by Lyn Mangiameli

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=59082

Enjoy the read.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (21 Mar 2005)

I think it might have more to do with _where_ the weight is, rather than how much there is. So I'd tentatively agree, weight _per se_ really has nothing to do with it. I suppose we're guilty of using "heavy" as a shorthand for wider, longer, larger _and_ heavier planes. For shame.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Mike B (21 Mar 2005)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I think I get the hint - go buy the LA block but wait and see between the LV LA 4.5 or the standard LV 4.5...

Cheers
Mike


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2005)

Mike

Where do you live? We may have a member near you who owns an LA or 4.5 and would be happy to let you go over for a look and try


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## Frank D. (21 Mar 2005)

You're welcome anytime to my place Mike. :wink: 
Frank


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## Mike B (21 Mar 2005)

Halesowen (near Birmingham). That may be helpful if possible, although I am not around that much.

I was mainly trying to find out which size was most popular so I do not buy something I will never use. Tricky I know, as plane size is subjective, and even more so in my case as I am really just starting to get into more serious woodwork and am not quite sure exactly what I will need, although the initial plan is for some hardwood furniture. Also, I was not sure how well low angles worked on face grain, so if I only ended up using a LA smoother with a HA blade I might as well just get a regular smoother and use the LA block for the end grain etc...Alternatively, just get a LA smoother with both blades. Sorry - more questions than answers at the moment as not many articles/books seem to include the "whys"!!

cheers
Mike


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## Mike B (21 Mar 2005)

Careful, we were actually considering a trip to Canada this year...


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## Frank D. (22 Mar 2005)

Anyone from this forum is always invited to my shop...  If you pass by Montreal just let me know.
My 2¢ (2 pence?) would be to suggest the low-angle smoother with 2 blades. Sometimes the mass of a bigger plane is nice (even necessary) for end grain, and they work very well as smoothers. If you work a lot of highly figured or tricky grain you could even get a third blade and grind it at 45° or so. I have an assortment of regular bench planes and bevel-up planes and if I had to pick one I'd pick a bevel-up plane (the LV low-angle jack). Keep an eye open for the new low-angle heavy smoother from Veritas which should be out in the next month or two.
Frank


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (22 Mar 2005)

Mike, Frank's advice is exactly what I would have given (so it must be good  ). 

You wrote, _if I only ended up using a LA smoother with a HA blade I might as well just get a regular smoother _. It is important to realise that the LA Smoother is more than a LA plane. It is unfortunate that the name obscures this issue. Indeed, I have suggested to Rob Lee that the name be changed to something like "bevel up plane" (or something to reflect this) since planes with this configuration have advantages over the bevel down brigade that go beyond simply a choice of blade angles. In a nutshell, the bevel up planes provide a more secure bedding for blades than those with bevels down. So their performance is always going to be potentially better. Throw in the fact that the BU planes also have adjustable mouths and one can vary the blade angle, and I warrant that the future of plane-making lies you-know-where. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Philly (22 Mar 2005)

Mike
You say you are going to get more serious about your woodworking? Planes have a habit of becoming, shall we say, addictive? For instance........





Just a warning-the slope is veryyyyyy slippery! :roll: 
Cheers
Planely Mad Philly :lol:


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## Neil (22 Mar 2005)

Philly, where does your LV LA fit into that cabinet? Or does it go in the secret one on the other side of the wall?  

Cheers,
Neil


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## Philly (22 Mar 2005)

Well spotted that Man!
That picture is a bit out of date-the Knight smoother has had to make way for the Veritas (at least until plane cabinet #2 comes along :roll: )
Cheers
Philly


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (22 Mar 2005)

Here is the latest picture of of Phillys' toolbox, complete with planes.

Impressive  

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=3567



Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Philly (22 Mar 2005)

Very funny! :lol: 
Did you see the episode of the New Yankee Workshop where Norm actually got to have a look at that toolbox? An eye-opener alright! That box is amazing, everthing swings up or open to allow the tools at the rear to be accessed. Ebony, ivory, mahogany-built by a piano builder, I beleive.
Nice one Derek
Philly


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## Frank D. (22 Mar 2005)

All right Philly,
Take this!


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## llangatwgnedd (22 Mar 2005)

Nice looking fleet you have there Frank 8) 

What is that with a cranked handle bottom center of picture ?


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## Adam (22 Mar 2005)

Frank D.":1sbo5fy0 said:


> _________________
> Warning: GLOAT ALERT
> (applies to all posts)



Nope, you weren't kidding were you.:shock: 

Adam


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## Philly (22 Mar 2005)

Not bad Frank!
You could do with a few more block planes though.......... :roll: 
Cheers
Sad Plane Loving Philly :lol:


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## Frank D. (22 Mar 2005)

Sawdust Producer":13oqmkzv said:


> Nice looking fleet you have there Frank 8)
> 
> What is that with a cranked handle bottom center of picture ?


Thanks,
That's a sumitsubo, a Japanese ink line. It's like a chlk line but more precise. I like it for laying out long cut lines (over 6 feet) and for laying out lines on firewood or big pieces like posts and beams. Can't say I use it very often but I'm glad I have it when I need it. Oh yeah, it's also a good luck charm, when you have one it's impossible to make mistakes. Sometimes Japanese carpenters leave one inside a wall when they build a house or any building (so the house won't fall down).
Frank


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## Alf (22 Mar 2005)

Now that's a nice selection, Frank, spoilt only by the second best bevel up jack... :wink: But how on earth d'you decide which one to use? Whichever's sharpest at the time?  

Cheers, Alf


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## Frank D. (22 Mar 2005)

Hi Alf,
sharpness is most often the deciding factor, as well as distance from the bench and how many beer bottles I have to step over :wink: . 
Actually there's a LV low-angle jack hiding with my Lie-Nielsens at the other end (you can see the front knob). I use it for regular bench work (with 2 blades) and I use my LN as a super-smoother (it's always sharp and has a high angle blade only).
Frank


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## Alf (22 Mar 2005)

Frank D.":1aj8dh5s said:


> Actually there's a LV low-angle jack hiding with my Lie-Nielsens at the other end (you can see the front knob).


So there is. Silly me to think otherwise... :roll: :wink: :lol:


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (23 Mar 2005)

Good grief Frank, that is quite an enviable collection. Are they always that clean? Nice workshop and space. Any more pics of the workshop, itself?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Frank D. (23 Mar 2005)

Actually Derek the workshop isn't mine. I was giving a planing seminar (on how to go from rough stock to finished with planes) at a friend's workshop out in the country. I live in the city and my workshop is quite small (I won't be mean because I saw just how small workshops can get when I visited this site), 10.5 by 14 feet. I brought my planes and we laid them out on his bench before the seminar, so the pic. I must also admit that the Veritas #6 in the foreground and the Veritas large shoulder plane aren't mine, they were lent to us by Rob Lee. Si I don't have too many pics of my own shop, it's so small I can'T get in a good pic of an entire wall. Many have said they were amazed at my efficient use of space though, if you want to be a tool junkie in a small shop you have to be quite imaginative.
Frank
Oh yes and no they aren't always that clean...I do use them sometimes but I always tell them to look clean when they travel. :wink:


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## Anonymous (27 Mar 2005)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> This is a contentious issue, but the following _Wood Central _thread may convince you to view this issue differently. That is, that the weight of the hand plane has little to do with its performance.
> Derek



Nope. Sorry, don't agree. 

I tried my two smoothers today and the weight of the 4 1/2 (considerably more than the LN LA) makes a massive difference on long hardwood boards

The reason is pretty clear when one considers elementary phsyics. A heavier plane has more momentum and so will take a lot more stopping (or deviating form chosen path) in line with Newton's second law of motion - this is where I feel the advantage in use. 
I can easily push my 4 1/2 through a longish board of very hard wood, but the LA often doesn't make it to the end in one go

Also, I can push my #6 and #7 through the long boards more easily than the 4 1/2 due to their additional weight (momentum) - they have the same blade width and angle as the 4 1/2

I tried 'em all today to check this out and the above is what I found to be true. Newton was right #-o


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## DaveL (27 Mar 2005)

Tony":anrgs26x said:


> Newton was right #-o



Not that he was into woodwork, he liked to sit under the tree. :roll:


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## Alf (27 Mar 2005)

Tony":1ewlwyw9 said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > This is a contentious issue, but the following _Wood Central _thread may convince you to view this issue differently. That is, that the weight of the hand plane has little to do with its performance.
> ...


<Alf steps swiftly to one side in order to avoid any stray shots from the ensuing fray> 8-[ 

Cheers, Alf


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## ike (27 Mar 2005)

I agree with Tony. Never mind the theory waffle, I find, a heavier plane carries through tough bits more effectively. It seems commonsense to me really.

Ike


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## Chris Knight (27 Mar 2005)

I also agree with Tony, a heavy plane makes a big difference. It is also worth bearing in mind that a continuous cut in a single stroke produces a nicer finish than an interrupted stroke. The same phenomenon occurring with table saws, planers, routers and the like. A heavy plane with bags of momentum makes it far far easier to achieve a smooth continuous cut than using a light plane.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (27 Mar 2005)

Well I did say this was a contentious issue, and it does tend to polarise users.

Basically I think it comes down to a personal preference, your style of planing, rather than the plane iself. And also to the specific demands of the timber.

There are just too many planes around that would contradict the "heavier is better" brigade (such as HNT Gordon, Mujingfang, Clark & Williams, ECE/Primus, amongst others), and the "fact" is that these planes perform superbly. But would they be better if they were heavier? 

Which is easier to use: my Stanley #7 or my HNT Gordon Try Plane. I enjoy using both, but they are so different from each other that comparisons are difficult. The #7 has a wider blade and extra mass, and the greater momentum is actually _needed_ to move the plane down the board. The HNT Gordon, being lighter and narrower, with a sole that has much less friction, takes a finer cut with a smaller mouth, and so seems to glide along with little effort.

I have quite a wide range of smoothers from which to choose. For example, I could use my LV LA Jack as a smoother on a difficult-to-plane hardwood, such as Jarrah. Or I could use a LV LA Smoother. Will the momentum of the Jack provide some advantage over the smaller mass of the Smoother? I don't know, and I think that I will do some comparisons when I get to test the new LV LA Large Smoother. At this stage my Jack is set up as a panel plane and for the shooting board. 

All I can say at this stage it that I believe that it is the final quality of the surface that counts, and if we are talking about final smoothing, then a smaller plane is what I am more likely to turn to at this time. I am reminded of the length of traditional coffin smoothers, which were about 7". The absolute best plane I have for removing tearout and leaving a polished surface is a 4" long Mujingfang mini smoother (60 degree cutting angle). But you wouldn't want to use this dinky plane on a large panel. Further, different planes (with different cutting angles) perform better than others on different timbers, and I will also make a choice on that basis. Weight does not come into the equation. What I am saying is that I choose a smoother for the task at hand, not choose one since I believe it is better than the others at all smoothing tasks. 

I would be interested in hearing from other _why_ they prefer their smoothers, and _how_ they decide which to use.

Regards from Perth 

Derek


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## Frank D. (27 Mar 2005)

It's interesting to see what motivates people's choices. I agree with what Derek says, but I must admit I prefer a plane with more mass. The first factor that dictates my choice of a smoother is length of the plane. It really depends what I'm planing; if it's an outside surface (outside relevant to the finished piece) for which flatness is not critical I won't spend time and waste wood flattening it for nothing, so I'll probably need a shorter plane to follow the slight curves. So a smoother around 8 to 10 inches long is the one I choose. For delicate jobs where I can't make a mistake I'll even grab my 9 1/2 block which is tuned to smooth. Next two factors after length are mass and blade width. If I can do the whiole surface in one swipe I'll go for a wider plane, but if not mass will bear more on my choice, especially for tougher woods. Every once in a while I get some maple that just doesn't want to be planed. Mass can make an almost impossible job relatively easy. For tough boards like this I don't hesitate to grab my #8 to smooth, the difference is stunning.
Frank


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## Frank D. (27 Mar 2005)

Oh yeah, I forgot about the effective planing angle. Just chuck that in with the mix...for sure if I need a high angle I'll go with it no matter what the plane...I use my LN 062 as a high-angle smoother.


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