# How long for a Rob Cosman plane tuning?



## bugbear (29 Oct 2013)

Around 5 minutes:

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... 68#message

Note the performance level achieved.

BugBear


----------



## MIGNAL (29 Oct 2013)

What's the big deal? He spent 5 minutes on tuning a Plane. Suggests that he had very little to do to the Plane in the first instance.


----------



## AndyT (29 Oct 2013)

And no mention of fitting one of his premium price blades!


----------



## Dangermouse (29 Oct 2013)

Try doing that to a car boot buy. I see he " took the plane out of its box " so not much to do there then ! (hammer) :roll:


----------



## Jacob (29 Oct 2013)

MIGNAL":3aogm6vk said:


> What's the big deal? He spent 5 minutes on tuning a Plane. Suggests that he had very little to do to the Plane in the first instance.


Er yes. What can one say except "so what"? :lol: Cosman takes a plane from a box, which didn't need much doing to it. It didn't make the 6 o'clock news. Did he pull out a white rabbit at the same time?
Cosman is a proper showman - there's no knowing how long he took fiddling with the plane before he put it in the box. :roll:


----------



## bugbear (29 Oct 2013)

Jacob":14owgkov said:


> Cosman is a proper showman - there's no knowing how long he took fiddling with the plane before he put it in the box. :roll:



Are you accusing someone of active dishonesty on a public forum Jacob? Possibly unwise.

BugBear


----------



## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2013)

"Cosman is a proper showman."

Just like Paul Sellers, then? :lol:


----------



## iNewbie (29 Oct 2013)

Nah. That was Peter Sellers.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2013)

iNewbie":3jhrjp2z said:


> Nah. That was Peter Sellers.




Did Peter Sellers use rounded bevels or the ruler trick, then? :lol:


----------



## iNewbie (29 Oct 2013)

I see like -Mr. Sellers- you have the Scary Sharp humour down.


----------



## JohnPW (29 Oct 2013)

> I watched him take a 4 1/2 out of the
> box spend less than five minutes on a little fettling.
> Another minute on honing and then he took a full width solid shaving 0.0002 thick from a 2
> in wide piece of very curly maple. Kinda impressive. He did the ruler
> ...



It is a new £300 premium plane or a £5 boot fair plane? I guess the 5 min fettling was adjusting the lateral lever and setting the blade depth. I suppose it might be possible to flatten the sole and frog, shape the bottom of the back iron etc in 5 min but you'd need everything set up and ready to go.

And you only need a few strokes for honing.


----------



## J_SAMa (29 Oct 2013)

bugbear":301lhkq3 said:


> Jacob":301lhkq3 said:
> 
> 
> > Cosman is a proper showman - there's no knowing how long he took fiddling with the plane before he put it in the box. :roll:
> ...



"Straight out of the box" or not, tuning up a premium plane in 5 minutes isn't impressive...


----------



## bugbear (29 Oct 2013)

J_SAMa":3ovgsohw said:


> bugbear":3ovgsohw said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3ovgsohw said:
> ...



It was a Wood River, similar to Rutlands own.

BugBear


----------



## MIGNAL (29 Oct 2013)

Right. It took me 2 minutes to fettle my Rutlands 'Woodriver' Plane. 
That Cosman guy needs to get practicing!!!


----------



## J_SAMa (29 Oct 2013)

bugbear":3j1yt7s9 said:


> It was a Wood River, similar to Rutlands own.
> 
> BugBear



Wood River is a premium... At least Quangsheng is.
Also I remember Rob Cosman was paid to appear in one of the videos Woodcraft made. He's probably endorsing Wood River now.


----------



## Jacob (29 Oct 2013)

J_SAMa":gydqe0en said:


> bugbear":gydqe0en said:
> 
> 
> > It was a Wood River, similar to Rutlands own.
> ...


He is.
http://www.robcosman.com/tools_planes-woodriver.php

Have a look at this. It might be an April fool I suppose:
http://www.robcosman.com/tools_angle_trainer.php
Or is it the answer to the big enigma; 
Q. how could everybody sharpen freehand in the old days without a problem?
A. They practiced for many years with "angle trainers". Obvious innit? Now we know.

This made me laugh too http://www.robcosman.com/tools_lapping_fluid.php
Probably one of the most expensive fluids known to man. :shock: 
Makes water non rusting! Brilliant. 
He doesn't stock oil stones I notice. Non of them do. I wonder why? :lol: :lol:


----------



## Kalimna (29 Oct 2013)

Possibly the answer, Jacob, is that 'in the old days', people who wanted to use tools (and therefore sharpen them) would be doing so not out of desire for entertainment (i.e. a hobby), but out of a means to earn money (i.e. a paid job they would be doing day in, day out).
As such, the amount of time available for learning the skills (i.e. muscle memory) would be much greater, and also there would be a tutor/mentor available to indicate when those skills were not being picked up correctly.

Using jigs (however insulting you are of both those using them, and the jigs themselves) aids those (especially) hobbyists who do a little woodwork in their spare time and are keen to know that the main aim of enjoyment (cutting up wood!) is not being hampered by an inappropriately sharpened cutting edge. Yes, freehand maybe a little quicker (once the skill is learned, and practiced frequently), and certainly cheaper, but isnt always the best route for a user.

Cheers,
Adam


----------



## G S Haydon (29 Oct 2013)

Reading the link provided it seems like Mr Cosman took a high quality plane out of the box, honed it and was able to create very fine shavings quickly. All done whilst doing a presentation to an audience/customers. 
I think this shows the products he sells require virtually no work to perform very well. I can therefore see why many people would feel inclined to purchase one.
I did not mind refining my #4 Record and it works very well indeed but with QS/WR planes at such a good price and able to be used with no tinkering they are a tempting option for many people.
Perhaps for a fair perspective we should all try setting and using our tools in front of an audience to know exactly what that added dynamic feels like. Mr Cosman is like Mr Sellers and Mr Schwarz et al, they have to be confident to demonstrate their content and products clearly be that books, DVD's or tools. Some times their styles may grate sometime we may gravitate to them, all of that is a personal choice.

On oils stones I do enjoy using them more than any other medium. I was envious to see this great value kit available across the pond 
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Ultimate-Oil-Stone-Kit-P320C100.aspx


----------



## Spindle (29 Oct 2013)

Hi

A shaving 1/5th of a thou thick - really :? 

Regards Mick


----------



## Jacob (29 Oct 2013)

Kalimna":3n3lkv9h said:


> Possibly the answer, Jacob, is that 'in the old days', people who wanted to use tools (and therefore sharpen them) would be doing so not out of desire for entertainment (i.e. a hobby), but out of a means to earn money (i.e. a paid job they would be doing day in, day out).
> As such, the amount of time available for learning the skills (i.e. muscle memory) would be much greater, and also there would be a tutor/mentor available to indicate when those skills were not being picked up correctly.
> 
> Using jigs (however insulting you are of both those using them, and the jigs themselves) aids those (especially) hobbyists who do a little woodwork in their spare time and are keen to know that the main aim of enjoyment (cutting up wood!) is not being hampered by an inappropriately sharpened cutting edge. Yes, freehand maybe a little quicker (once the skill is learned, and practiced frequently), and certainly cheaper, but isnt always the best route for a user.
> ...


No Adam it's not true that it's difficult and takes training/time to pick up. It's the best route for beginners - easiest and cheapest. NB people have been doing amateur woodwork (and other crafts) from very early times - it's not new.


----------



## Racers (29 Oct 2013)

I have not yet bought a second-hand tool that has been sharpened properly, so not all the old boys knew what they where doing.

Maybe they needed some jigs?

Pete


----------



## bugbear (29 Oct 2013)

Jacob":19u80ovg said:


> No Adam it's not true that it's difficult and takes training/time to pick up. It's the best route for beginners - easiest and cheapest.



The one guy fool enough to follow your over-sold advise had poor edges for two years until someone from Lie Neilsen put him right!

BugBear


----------



## J_SAMa (29 Oct 2013)

Jacob":1lt2wsnc said:


> He is.
> http://www.robcosman.com/tools_planes-woodriver.php
> 
> Have a look at this. It might be an April fool I suppose:
> ...



I think it actually makes a good honing guide... Probably the simplest form of honing guide available.
EDIT: Actually I take that back... closer inspection to the pictures reveals that gripping a plane blade over that guide seems awkward, at least for me... I always put my left index in the keyhole when sharpening a plane blade. This honing guide obstructs that hole and unlike other guides, it doesn't provide any additional handles/grips.
But the price begs to differ... A block of wood or whatever cut at the correct angles costs nothing


----------



## J_SAMa (29 Oct 2013)

Racers":1bs6zwal said:


> I have not yet bought a second-hand tool that has been sharpened properly, so not all the old boys knew what they where doing.
> 
> Maybe they needed some jigs?
> 
> Pete


Can you be more specific? What does "proper" mean?
Perhaps those people had their own, special reasons for not sharpening "properly"...


----------



## Racers (29 Oct 2013)

Not square, wrong angle/angles, totally blunt etc.

Pete


----------



## iNewbie (29 Oct 2013)

Jacob":3fxnl8n5 said:


> Have a look at this. It might be an April fool I suppose:
> http://www.robcosman.com/tools_angle_trainer.php
> Or is it the answer to the big enigma;
> Q. how could everybody sharpen freehand in the old days without a problem?
> A. They practiced for many years with "angle trainers". Obvious innit? Now we know.



Jacob, you're all about people getting hands-on and doing it. So what does it matter if someone IS using one of those and its helping them. If the cost of one was out of _your_ own pocket I may understand your Tool-Police, stance!

And don't forget: _ Its not about the tools_. Though _you_ keep bringing the feckin' things up! :mrgreen:


----------



## Paddywack (29 Oct 2013)

I have one of Cosmans Honing Trainer and I also adopted his stance and height of my Sharpening Stones and after using the Training aid for a short time ( a dozen or so times ) I was able to Sharpen free hand and I defy anyone to find fault with my blades for sharpness I also use the Charlesworth Ruler Trick and I get great results. I have the guide to give away if anyone wants to learn from it, I wouldn't like it to go to anyone who genuinely doesn't want to learn Freehand Sharpening.


----------



## J_SAMa (29 Oct 2013)

G S Haydon":1x0gw2cn said:


> On oils stones I do enjoy using them more than any other medium. I was envious to see this great value kit available across the pond
> http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Ultimate-Oil-Stone-Kit-P320C100.aspx



Since you're an avid user of oilstones, could you tell me if you *flatten* them? How often? I've seen so many old oilstones with huge pits, as if someone had gouged it out on purpose...
Oh and, does flattening with sandpaper make the stone faster (since it takes off the old, blunt particles)?
Sorry this is off topic.


----------



## Jacob (29 Oct 2013)

J_SAMa":7gm3xtuu said:


> G S Haydon":7gm3xtuu said:
> 
> 
> > On oils stones I do enjoy using them more than any other medium. I was envious to see this great value kit available across the pond
> ...


I don't flatten them ever. It's not necessary. I attempt to spread the load so that they wear flattish, but they aren't flat by any means. I freshen the surface every now and then with a 3m diapad (which I just happened to have - other abrasives will do) and yes it does make them faster. It also helps to keep them clean and under cover - wipe them down and put the lid back on every time.
BTW believe it or not but I'm not obsessed by this subject; it just keeps coming up - it's a community obsession - and I don't see any reason for not throwing in my tuppence worth, even though it seems to annoy a few people.
NB if you have an old hollowed out stone I'd suggest keeping it that way and not wasting your time flattening it. It could come in handy for cambered blades etc. A bit of camber on a chisel doesn't matter either. Another flatter one will be along sooner or later - they aren't pricey.


----------



## Racers (29 Oct 2013)

Other opinions are available!

Pete


----------



## Jacob (29 Oct 2013)

Racers":1cm0cfjt said:


> Other opinions are available!
> 
> Pete


More the merrier!


----------



## Paul Chapman (29 Oct 2013)

Jacob":22bzag9u said:


> BTW believe it or not but I'm not obsessed by this subject



Well, that is very hard to believe, given that you are probably the most prolific poster on the subject.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Jacob (29 Oct 2013)

Paul Chapman":2ojf4gu1 said:


> Jacob":2ojf4gu1 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW believe it or not but I'm not obsessed by this subject
> ...


Yebbut how many threads on sharpening have I actually set off? One, as far as I can recall (BB will put me right) when I first discovered how to do it properly, 4 or 5 years ago.


----------



## undergroundhunter (29 Oct 2013)

I'm a hobby woodworker and relative noob who doesn't need to sharpen much (my tools don't get enough use), I have adopted the convex bevel method that Paul Sellers uses and I have got to say it didn't take me long to pick it up at all, I find the sound of the stone cutting is a good indicator as to the angle. I use a Norton India combination stone and a leather strop (with compound) and have found it takes seconds to refresh an edge to razor sharp (shaves hairs on my arm and slices through a sheet of paper real easy). The only time I would now use a honing guide would be to regrind an edge if its badly chipped and then it would be straight back to convex bevel, if I ever get round to buying a set of diamond stones a may dispose of the honing guide all together. 
Just my 2p worth. 

Matt


----------



## Paul Chapman (29 Oct 2013)

Jacob":3n0007b7 said:


> Yebbut how many threads on sharpening have I actually set off?



No idea - but I don't read much of your stuff because you keep repeating yourself and it's all become so tedious.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## David C (29 Oct 2013)

I'd like to inspect some of these blades sharpened on dished oilstones.

Jaakko is in direct conflict with Larry Williams who likes to keedp his religiously flat.

I know which method I would go with, and yes I have tried both.

David Charlesworth


----------



## G S Haydon (29 Oct 2013)

J_SAMa":2kzrogvh said:


> G S Haydon":2kzrogvh said:
> 
> 
> > On oils stones I do enjoy using them more than any other medium. I was envious to see this great value kit available across the pond
> ...



Hello J_SAMa

Not at all, thanks for asking. I have not yet had to flatten it yet as within my day job the fine side just gets used for applying a secondary bevel. But sure after a time it will need refreshing, just not there yet. For the record I have tried a few methods, Diamond plates that felt very sterile, a waterstone that I dished because I didn't use it properly and I found myself back at the India because it felt nice and was resistant to dishing.
I bought a second India for my "Hobby" tool collection and wow was it aggressive! Having got used to the old one and I want my new one to calm down :lol: . I would assume that if I were to refresh the surface the old one might bite harder. I also just bought a Arkansas combo stone like the one in the kit I linked to for more refined work. 
David also mentioned Larry Williams sharpening vid which is an enjoyable watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0ClNp_Eknw He is very methodical with his flattening and exposing new grit, I might personally do a few more sharpens before I worried about it, I will soon find out if it's needed when my Arkansas arrives.


----------



## bugbear (29 Oct 2013)

G S Haydon":2e1niisi said:


> Larry Williams.



You might want to look in to Larry's back story - his opinions and techniques are founded in a depth of knowledge.

BugBear


----------



## Dangermouse (29 Oct 2013)

Bloody hell another sharpening thread !!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## J_SAMa (29 Oct 2013)

G S Haydon":caf81363 said:


> J_SAMa":caf81363 said:
> 
> 
> > G S Haydon":caf81363 said:
> ...



How long do you think it can go without being refreshed? A year? FYI I'm a weekend woodworker.
Without an Arkansas, do you go straight from the oilstone to a strop or do you take intermediate steps?
Sam


----------



## Cheshirechappie (29 Oct 2013)

Dangermouse":181tqr43 said:


> Bloody hell another sharpening thread !!!!!!!!!!!!



Actually, it started as a plane tuning thread, and morphed.....


----------



## Dangermouse (29 Oct 2013)

Ahhh.... those bloody Morphing gremlins are at it again !!!!!!


----------



## Jacob (29 Oct 2013)

David C":3e2th23i said:


> I'd like to inspect some of these blades sharpened on dished oilstones.


Drop in any time Dave. Give us a call first perhaps.


> Jaakko is in direct conflict with Larry Williams who likes to keedp his religiously flat.


I'm not religious. Wos this name thing? It's not my real name you know. It's actually Clint Grimsdale


> I know which method I would go with, and yes I have tried both.
> 
> David Charlesworth


Both? There's more than two, by a long chalk!


----------



## DTR (29 Oct 2013)

Cheshirechappie":19vtsyfr said:


> Dangermouse":19vtsyfr said:
> 
> 
> > Bloody hell another sharpening thread !!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...



Sigh, another potentially interesting thread ruined by this pointless argument :roll:


----------



## G S Haydon (29 Oct 2013)

J_SAMa":tux460ir said:


> How long do you think it can go without being refreshed? A year? FYI I'm a weekend woodworker.
> Without an Arkansas, do you go straight from the oilstone to a strop or do you take intermediate steps?
> Sam



With the type of work I do the india and a palm of the hand strop is just fine. Although I can well appreciate other types of work will require further refinement. are you happy with the results your getting?


----------



## G S Haydon (29 Oct 2013)

bugbear":3gyi5pba said:


> G S Haydon":3gyi5pba said:
> 
> 
> > Larry Williams.
> ...



I intend to from the little I have seen it's good stuff.


----------



## Jacob (30 Oct 2013)

J_SAMa":1ar1174u said:


> ......
> How long do you think it can go without being refreshed? A year? ....


Much more often than that. Basically as and when. If you are doing a lot of work and a lot of sharpening it'd be every day. You can tell when it needs doing - the edge slides a bit unevenly and doesn't feel as though it is being ground. The surface fills up but also gets traces of shavings (often very thin so you don't see them) and bits of wire edge left behind.
Larry W does his with a flat plate - which means flat stones. I do mine with a 3M Diapad which is bendy and follows contours. It's only a quick pass - just 3 or 4 seconds.

I thought Larry W was rather going through the motions with his first sharpening - if the blade had been really well used it'd take few more passes than he showed. One of the hazards of sharpening demos - you run out of blunt edges to demo on!
PS I was impressed by his little angle template thing. Much better as a training device than that Cosman gizmo.

PPS I wonder if failure to recognise the need to freshen up an oil stone is the reason for their fall from favour? It makes a big difference and struggling away with a dirty old stone would be no fun at all. Diamond stones don't need it, water stones spend more time being freshened up than actually used (by the sounds of it!), scary sharp sandpaper is replaced with fresh at regular intervals.


----------



## Corneel (30 Oct 2013)

G S Haydon":3hgao2t6 said:


> bugbear":3hgao2t6 said:
> 
> 
> > G S Haydon":3hgao2t6 said:
> ...



Larry is a good guy, with lots of practical experience and I admire him a lot. But don't take everything he writes for gospel, only because of his name. He's occasionally wrong too, like everybody else.


----------



## Corneel (30 Oct 2013)

Jacob":1c05vpg8 said:


> PPS I wonder if failure to recognise the need to freshen up an oil stone is the reason for their fall from favour? It makes a big difference and struggling away with a dirty old stone would be no fun at all. Diamond stones don't need it, water stones spend more time being freshened up than actually used (by the sounds of it!), scary sharp sandpaper is replaced with fresh at regular intervals.



That's probably why my Indian stone fell out of favour with me. It is very dirty now. That, and it's never ending thirst for more oil. When I see people on youtube using these stones, they only iuse a little bit of oil, while mine keeps on drinking. No idea where all that oil ends up.


----------



## Dangermouse (30 Oct 2013)

Before you use a new oil stone , I was taught to soak it in a tub of oil first. I use very thin oil or paraffin from then on.


----------



## bugbear (30 Oct 2013)

Dangermouse":suv0ei85 said:


> Before you use a new oil stone , I was taught to soak it in a tub of oil first. I use very thin oil or paraffin from then on.



Some of them specially claim to be pre-soaked.

BugBear


----------



## MIGNAL (30 Oct 2013)

Baby Oil. Good enough for those little chaps it's good enough for me. 
I actually use a MKII guide (set at 24.5 degrees) to apply the stuff. The oil runs down the guide at the correct speed, spreading itself evenly on the stone. No way on earth can that be done freehand.


----------



## J_SAMa (30 Oct 2013)

G S Haydon":3nwrfv3d said:


> J_SAMa":3nwrfv3d said:
> 
> 
> > How long do you think it can go without being refreshed? A year? FYI I'm a weekend woodworker.
> ...



Not really happy... I am using waterstones and they are fast, so fast I can feel the blades being ground. But I'm tired of flattening them. I'd been flattening them with a diamond stone and now the diamond stone is glazed . I'd wanted to switch to oilstones... until I saw the price tags... A Norton stone costs more than a diamond stone :evil: 
Sam


----------



## Jacob (30 Oct 2013)

Loads of them around 2nd hand. I've never bought a new one.


----------



## woodbrains (30 Oct 2013)

MIGNAL":1h681elt said:


> Baby Oil. Good enough for those little chaps it's good enough for me.
> I actually use a MKII guide (set at 24.5 degrees) to apply the stuff. The oil runs down the guide at the correct speed, spreading itself evenly on the stone. No way on earth can that be done freehand.



Hello,

Interesting, the Mk 2 isn't pre calibrated to 24.5 degrees, do you use a dial indicator to get this unusual angle? What is the coefficient of friction for the baby oil and would a bit of talcum add some abrasive quality  

Mike.


----------



## bugbear (30 Oct 2013)

Jacob":nhq9yax9 said:


> Loads of them around 2nd hand. I've never bought a new one.



I thought you'd been using the first one you bought for your entire career, since they don't wear?

BugBear


----------



## charvercarver (30 Oct 2013)

I use 3 in 1 oil for everything, even my waterstone slips. Most non specific Oils are mineral oil anyway as far as I can tell. An old timer at work uses lamp oil which is mostly just kerosene.

I've found that for flatness and ease of use my spiderco ceramic stones are excellent, they never need flattening and you can use them dry. Occasional cleaning with a bit of vim, and maybe a sweep with a magnet now and again, and all is well.


----------



## woodbrains (30 Oct 2013)

Hello,

Paraffin in the best honing fluid by far, I have found. It keeps the stones cleaner and helps with keeping the cutting fast. Baby oil is largely paraffin, but like honing oil, 3 in 1 oil and the usual media, I think it is too viscous for efficient swarfe removal.

Mike


----------



## bugbear (30 Oct 2013)

woodbrains":2xfiqv9n said:


> Hello,
> 
> Paraffin in the best honing fluid by far, I have found. It keeps the stones cleaner and helps with keeping the cutting fast. Baby oil is largely paraffin, but like honing oil, 3 in 1 oil and the usual media, I think it is too viscous for efficient swarfe removal.
> 
> Mike



Kingshott recommends mixing white spirit and engine oil, until you get a mixture that has the right viscosity for the stone you're using.

BugBear


----------



## woodbrains (30 Oct 2013)

Hello,

Did the oil, white spirit mix when I first started woodworking. It is effective, but white spirit not so good on the skin. Paraffin is kinder, I find.


----------



## Jacob (30 Oct 2013)

bugbear":m54wbtyg said:


> Jacob":m54wbtyg said:
> 
> 
> > Loads of them around 2nd hand. I've never bought a new one.
> ...


Digging in the archives again? :lol: :lol: 
I was given the (new) one I use most. I think I bought one from Woolworths before that, about 1970 I guess. Still got them both.


----------



## charvercarver (30 Oct 2013)

woodbrains":34ol72a1 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Paraffin in the best honing fluid by far, I have found. It keeps the stones cleaner and helps with keeping the cutting fast. Baby oil is largely paraffin, but like honing oil, 3 in 1 oil and the usual media, I think it is too viscous for efficient swarfe removal.
> 
> Mike



You could well be right, 3 in 1 is just what I happen to have around anyway so it's what I use. I have to say I've never come across honing oil outside of sharpening threads, how is it different from baby oil or 3 in 1?


----------



## Corneel (30 Oct 2013)

I've seen WD-40 recommended, but it is crazy expensive. Baby oil is at least smelling nice!

I really want to get my oilstones in working order, they do have some advantages over waterstones I guess. I just have to learn how to live with them.


----------



## woodbrains (30 Oct 2013)

charvercarver":2omuitjt said:


> woodbrains":2omuitjt said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Hello,

I used honing oil for a spell (till the bottle ran out) just to try, I don't think it is radically different than 3 in 1. Just a light mineral oil, possibly slightly lighter. 3 in 1 works well enough and is generally around the workshop, but I would not buy it specifically for honing use. Baby oil has the advantage of being nice smelling and cheaper than the former and will be skin friendly.

Incidentally, if you melt some paraffin wax in an old pan, it can be used to soak new stones and is ideal if you want to continue using paraffin oil (or baby oil for that matter) without it drinking up the fluid for ages after.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (30 Oct 2013)

Honerite about £80 a litre. 
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Shi ... 125ml.html
Macallans about £50 a litre
http://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/B-40-Macallan.aspx
wd 40 about £5 a litre
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/261299880452


----------



## charvercarver (30 Oct 2013)

I might try baby oil if I remember to pick some up. So honing oil is just mineral oil in a bottle that says honing oil? Don't think I'll bother with that then. Certainly not at £80 a litre.


----------



## Dangermouse (30 Oct 2013)

I've never tried baby oil, I'll have to get a few and put them in my hydraulic press, anyone know how much oil you get from one baby ????


----------



## G S Haydon (30 Oct 2013)

J_SAMa":30yiouyu said:


> G S Haydon":30yiouyu said:
> 
> 
> > J_SAMa":30yiouyu said:
> ...



I'm surprised they are so expensive! A norton combination stone is quite cheap in the UK and even cheaper in the US.


----------



## G S Haydon (30 Oct 2013)

[/quote]

Larry is a good guy, with lots of practical experience and I admire him a lot. But don't take everything he writes for gospel, only because of his name. He's occasionally wrong too, like everybody else.[/quote]

Agreed Corneel, I try to avoid worrying too much about who is right and wrong, it's just nice to soak up some experience from whomever, Larry, You, David C or Jacob were are lucky that the interweb allows us to share so much info so quickly and easily.


----------



## John15 (30 Oct 2013)

I use 3 in 1 and it seems to work fine
John


----------



## Corneel (30 Oct 2013)

G S Haydon":1zp4kl1i said:


> J_SAMa":1zp4kl1i said:
> 
> 
> > Not really happy... I am using waterstones and they are fast, so fast I can feel the blades being ground. But I'm tired of flattening them. I'd been flattening them with a diamond stone and now the diamond stone is glazed . I'd wanted to switch to oilstones... until I saw the price tags... A Norton stone costs more than a diamond stone :evil:
> ...



Indeed, you'll have to learn Dutch when living in The Netherlands :lol: Makes life a lot cheaper. This was the first hit when I was searching for "Norton India slijpsteen". 12,44 euro (+Vat + shipping).

http://www.teygeler.nl/product-2875-combinatie-slijpsteen-norton-711053.html


----------



## G S Haydon (30 Oct 2013)

Nice one Corneel, nice to end the thread on something useful


----------



## Vann (31 Oct 2013)

Dangermouse":20vly3uk said:


> I've never tried baby oil, I'll have to get a few and put them in my hydraulic press, anyone know how much oil you get from one baby ????


 :lol: :lol: 



woodbrains":20vly3uk said:


> Interesting, the Mk 2 isn't pre calibrated to 24.5 degrees, do you use a dial indicator to get this unusual angle?


Standard Angle, notch E on the registration guide, eccentric wheel set at 6 o'clock = 24.7degrees - which is about as close as you'll get... (I'm not a MarkII guide geek - honest)  :roll: 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Jacob (31 Oct 2013)

Jacob":sfza96rd said:


> Honerite about £80 a litre.
> http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Shi ... 125ml.html
> Macallans about £50 a litre
> http://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/B-40-Macallan.aspx
> ...


I forgot to add Diesel oil - cheapest of the lot at £1.50 a litre and good for honing. You'd be a very busy honer to use more than one litre per year, whatever you try.
Oil of Ulay anybody?


----------



## AndyT (31 Oct 2013)

I like the unit price comparison. 
Question for anyone using diesel - doesn't it stink out the workshop? I always use the plastic gloves when I fill the car up because I hate the smell of it on my hands. 
And the same would apply to paraffin wouldn't it? With a bit of a fire hazard as a bonus. 

Baby oil is much nicer!

But I'll stick to 3-in-1 at about £10 per litre.


----------



## Racers (31 Oct 2013)

I feel I should use Evian on my waterstones after seeing how much oil costs :shock:  

Pete


----------



## Phil Pascoe (31 Oct 2013)

Years ago at school we used a mix of engine oil and paraffin.


----------



## David C (31 Oct 2013)

Honerite gold.

250ml makes 6 litres of fluid and costs £18 from WH.

This works out at £3 per litre.

David


----------



## charvercarver (31 Oct 2013)

David C":2tu4k73d said:


> Honerite gold.
> 
> 250ml makes 6 litres of fluid and costs £18 from WH.
> 
> ...



But isn't that just something you add to water anyway? As in it is for waterstones, not oil stones.


----------



## Jacob (31 Oct 2013)

David C":23f2k73o said:


> Honerite gold.
> 
> 250ml makes 6 litres of fluid and costs £18 from WH.
> 
> ...


Honerite no 1 oil costs £9.50 per 125 litres from WH which works out at nearly £80 a litre. No doubt it would be cheaper elsewhere but would it be cheaper than The Macallan Gold?. I doubt it. 
Has anybody tried whiskey as a honing fluid? I might do it over the christmas period for a change.
Does Honerite no 1 have to mature for 10 years in oak barrels perhaps?

I like the idea of adding rust proofer to water, pure Alice Through the Looking glass! Next thing is to turn it into wine, or work out how to walk on it.


----------



## Sgian Dubh (31 Oct 2013)

Jacob":r26hn5ag said:


> Honerite no 1 oil costs £9.50 per 125 litres from WH which works out at nearly £80 a litre.


More like £0.076 per litre based on that price Jacob! That seems pretty cheap to me.

I realise, and I suspect everyone else does to, that you meant to type £9.50 per 0.125 l which equals £76/litre, but I couldn't resist, ha, ha. Slainte.


----------



## Spindle (31 Oct 2013)

Next thing is to turn it into wine, or work out how to walk on it.

I can turn wine into urine if thats any help


----------



## David C (31 Oct 2013)

Additives to water, producing a non rusting cutting fluid, are well known in engineering metal working shops.

Failure of knowledge, arithmetic and reading of the instructions, all in the same post??? Is this a record?

David


----------



## charvercarver (31 Oct 2013)

David C":2l2mldr0 said:


> Additives to water, producing a non rusting cutting fluid, are well known in engineering metal working shops.
> 
> Failure of knowledge, arithmetic and reading of the instructions, all in the same post??? Is this a record?
> 
> David



I'm not sure rust preventatives are required for sharpening, if you wipe the tool after you sharpen it. I'm assuming you are responding to another post as well as I don't think I made any errors in arithmetic or instruction reading.

Edited to add I see you were responding to someone else, apologies.


----------



## Dangermouse (31 Oct 2013)

This is in danger of turning into a sharpening thread ! :-({|= [-X [-o<


----------



## Jacob (31 Oct 2013)

David C":2x182rxu said:


> Additives to water, producing a non rusting cutting fluid, are well known in engineering metal working shops.


I think that's where they should stay Dave.
Water seems to be a fundamental mistake apropos woodworking tools. MK II water with very expensive additives is an improvement. MK III water will probably be oil - at least that's the way common sense seems to be pointing


> Failure of knowledge, arithmetic and reading of the instructions, all in the same post??? Is this a record?
> 
> David


What instructions? I saw no instructions? The arithmetic was a typo Dave, did you not spot it?


----------



## MIGNAL (1 Nov 2013)

Dangermouse":3l1ku8kf said:


> This is in danger of turning into a sharpening thread ! :-({|= [-X [-o<



Loonnnggg overdue. We haven't had one for quite a while.
What about saw sharpening. No one seems to get terribly excited by that. Blades on stone, yes. File on metal teeth, Nope.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (1 Nov 2013)

Dangermouse":2sblakjf said:


> This is in danger of turning into a sharpening thread ! :-({|= [-X [-o<



Is smilie playing a j%g, by any chance?


----------



## Corneel (1 Nov 2013)

MIGNAL":1gxp2uwx said:


> Loonnnggg overdue. We haven't had one for quite a while.
> What about saw sharpening. No one seems to get terribly excited by that. Blades on stone, yes. File on metal teeth, Nope.



I sharpen my saws all from one side. Everyone who turns their saw around in the vise doesn't know what he's doing and is wasting his time.

So, I put some much needed pepper in this thread


----------



## bugbear (1 Nov 2013)

Corneel":3rftszct said:


> I sharpen my saws all from one side. Everyone who turns their saw around in the vise doesn't know what he's doing and is wasting his time.
> 
> So, I put some much needed pepper in this thread



You are a heathen blasphemer.  

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (1 Nov 2013)

MIGNAL":2decruhr said:


> Dangermouse":2decruhr said:
> 
> 
> > This is in danger of turning into a sharpening thread ! :-({|= [-X [-o<
> ...


It seems the Japs don't do their own - which is a relief as there is no incentive to go all oriental with complicated messy systems and difficult materials. 
In any case it's not easy to imagine complicated alternatives to the file, on which to hang product sales, though there are a few gadgets around.
But the main thing is that saws just aren't as sexy somehow - no shiny bevels or much resembling big teeth and claws. Little teeth yes, but they just don't have "it".
Talking of big teeth - sabre tooth tiger in the paper yesterday - mega fauna remains often found not far from little stone arrowheads, which shows how significant sharpening is, in human development.


----------



## bugbear (1 Nov 2013)

Jacob":1bs1ka87 said:


> But the main thing is that saws just aren't as sexy somehow - no shiny bevels or much resembling big teeth and claws. Little teeth yes, but they just don't have "it".



Yeah - no one's interested in saws.

http://www.backsaw.net/

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (1 Nov 2013)

bugbear":2vdkvvzj said:


> Jacob":2vdkvvzj said:
> 
> 
> > But the main thing is that saws just aren't as sexy somehow - no shiny bevels or much resembling big teeth and claws. Little teeth yes, but they just don't have "it".
> ...


It's all about the handles. One saw blade is much the same as another


----------



## Corneel (1 Nov 2013)

Sloped gullets, rake and fleam angles, "universal" teeth, backbevels, thikcness of the blade, canted blades, sawvises.

There's plenty to discuss!


----------



## Racers (1 Nov 2013)

Incremental teeth, lambs tongues, dolphins ect

Pete


----------



## AndyT (1 Nov 2013)

The real difference is that saw sharpening is optional while plane and chisel sharpening is essential. I don't really expect to see a rash of threads singing the praises of the various replaceable blade planes, but plenty of people have swapped over to disposable saws in the belief that saw sharpening is next to impossible and best avoided.


----------



## swagman (1 Nov 2013)

Corneel":1ydqtry9 said:


> I've seen WD-40 recommended, but it is crazy expensive. Baby oil is at least smelling nice!
> 
> I really want to get my oilstones in working order, they do have some advantages over waterstones I guess. I just have to learn how to live with them.



All too fancy Corneel. Bit of spittle on the oil stone and your set to go. The old chippies on the worksite needed nothing else. Looked a woos if you didn't follow their example. (hammer) 

Stewie;


----------



## Cheshirechappie (1 Nov 2013)

Look chaps - can we avoid all this talk about "sexy sharpening" please? 

A lot of my sharpening tends to happen when I'm wearing a pair of tatty old jeans and a baggy woolly with a hole in the armpit. I now feel very inadequate - I don't have a nubile wench in stockings and a lacy basque to do my sharpening for me. Am I getting it all wrong? Should I try to find a long-term sharpening partner, or can I just pay for one by the hour when I feel the need?


----------



## Sgian Dubh (1 Nov 2013)

AndyT":1rwdyqpt said:


> The real difference is that saw sharpening is optional while plane and chisel sharpening is essential ... plenty of people have swapped over to disposable saws in the belief that saw sharpening is next to impossible and best avoided.


Saw sharpening isn't really optional, assuming the saw isn't one of the disposable variety you mentioned. Someone has to do it if the tool no longer cuts effectively for whatever reason, e.g., everything from blunt to bent. But it's also true that saw doctors have been available to do the job, but they are becoming scarcer and generally less able to take on the challenge of dealing with all the different tooth patterns if we're talking of a comprehensive range of traditional hand saws and their tooth patterns.

Sharpening a typical western style hand saw, e.g., a standard tooth pattern rip or cross cut saw, can be a bit challenging, and there is a learning curve that only practice will resolve. And the job can be royally screwed up if you don't know what you're doing-- some practical instruction, if it's available, helps enormously, otherwise I guess learners need to resort to video demonstrations and the like, although studying written instructions or guidance and pictures (photographs and graphics) can help get a learner on the right track. 

Nowadays I find one tricky task is finding decent files, especially those needed for saws with finer teeth, e.g., dovetail saws and fine cross cut saws. Chops are a doddle to make, and saw-sets are available too, although finding saw-sets for very fine teeth is more difficult, but hardly needed if the teeth are very fine and small. I guess one of the hardest jobs is starting from scratch where you have to basically file off all the existing screwed up teeth, joint the edge and start again, and a hacksaw blade can be handy for that because you can line it up with the jointed edge and use it to guide the file at appropriate spacings to start setting out the new gullets and subsequent shaping of the teeth. Slainte.


----------



## swagman (1 Nov 2013)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/vbtube_sh ... usy-Bodies =D> =D> =D>


----------



## J_SAMa (1 Nov 2013)

Corneel":y8jch6j2 said:


> G S Haydon":y8jch6j2 said:
> 
> 
> > J_SAMa":y8jch6j2 said:
> ...



Thanks, but I think this El Cheapo diamond stone is a better bet...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Am-Tech-6-inch-Extra-Diamond-Stone/dp/B0057FDC9E
Much cheaper... And Amazon does free shipping for orders £25 and above. It gets some good reviews, will try and do one myself if I decide to buy it.
Sam


----------



## G S Haydon (1 Nov 2013)

I have seen these shorter 150mm stones Sam, no reason why it would not be ok although I would prefer a longer stone than the regular 200mm of my oil stone. 
Hope it works out and looking forward to the feedback.


----------



## Dangermouse (1 Nov 2013)

So you have to sharpen SAWS !!!!????????????? :shock:


----------



## Jacob (1 Nov 2013)

Dangermouse":3ssf966m said:


> So you have to sharpen SAWS !!!!????????????? :shock:


I reckon a lot of people put up with blunt saws and blame technique, or the saw itself, for not sawing properly.


----------



## J_SAMa (1 Nov 2013)

G S Haydon":63damb7s said:


> I have seen these shorter 150mm stones Sam, no reason why it would not be ok although I would prefer a longer stone than the regular 200mm of my oil stone.
> Hope it works out and looking forward to the feedback.



I think the only reason why one would want a stone longer than 150 mm is for use with a honing guide. I freehand sharpen and use an 8-figure motion. Requires no more than 100 mm stone length.
One thing though is the width... How would you sharpen a jointer blade (60 mm) on a 50 mm stone?
Sam


----------



## Corneel (1 Nov 2013)

Skew the blade on the stone.


----------



## woodbrains (1 Nov 2013)

Jacob":1cm3bky5 said:


> It seems the Japs don't do their own - which is a relief as there is no incentive to go all oriental with complicated messy systems and difficult materials.



Hello,

Proper Japanese saws can be sharpened, and indeed, there are Japanese saw files to do it.

Mike.


----------



## David C (1 Nov 2013)

Well, it seems to me that the edit button is there to assist in the moping up of typos.

Pontificating about perfectly good kit, when one has not even read the instructions, seems unwise.

David


----------



## G S Haydon (1 Nov 2013)

Sam, corneel is dead right. And your right, you will be able to work just fine with a shorten stone. Although text suggests that no shorter than 200mm is best and the guy who wrote that book was not a jig man at all. Also width was also suggested at around 45mm. My experience with using a long piece of broken slate worktop as an experiment was nicer than the 200mm stone. I think there is a Lie-Nielsen factory tour vid that shows blades being honed on stones much longer than standard, freehand too from memory. Just checked, here it is http://youtu.be/NsGMOVtddlM?t=3m11s


----------



## Jacob (1 Nov 2013)

David C":2lk0xqmd said:


> Well, it seems to me that the edit button is there to assist in the moping up of typos.
> 
> Pontificating about perfectly good kit, when one has not even read the instructions, seems unwise.
> 
> David


Wos Dave on about? 
NB 2 Ps in 'mopping" unless you actually meant moping. (Typo - use the edit button :lol: )
PS top marks for "Pontificating" - a faultless performance, well done Dave.


----------



## David C (1 Nov 2013)

It ought to be fairly clear, Rubbish about Honerite.

David


----------



## J_SAMa (1 Nov 2013)

G S Haydon":4eva07yk said:


> Sam, corneel is dead right. And your right, you will be able to work just fine with a shorten stone. Although text suggests that no shorter than 200mm is best and the guy who wrote that book was not a jig man at all. Also width was also suggested at around 45mm. My experience with using a long piece of broken slate worktop as an experiment was nicer than the 200mm stone. I think there is a Lie-Nielsen factory tour vid that shows blades being honed on stones much longer than standard, freehand too from memory. Just checked, here it is http://youtu.be/NsGMOVtddlM?t=3m11s



Any particular advantages using a stone as narrow as 45 mm can give?
Sam


----------



## markturner (1 Nov 2013)

So, let me see....We have Jacob dispensing his "wisdom" to David Charlesworth...........without a shred of irony....lol.......


----------



## Max Power (1 Nov 2013)

swagman":3qsbj0yv said:


> http://www.woodworkforums.com/vbtube_show.php?tubeid=21&sti=Laurel-And-Hardy-Busy-Bodies =D> =D> =D>



Classic , anyone who hasn't already watched it do so =D> 
:shock: but blimey don't they look young.



"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." - George Washington


----------



## Jacob (2 Nov 2013)

David C":25hqqpsy said:


> It ought to be fairly clear, Rubbish about Honerite.
> 
> David


Dave I'm pleased to see that you have finally twigged that Honerite is rubbish. Better late than never.
NB it's probably perfectly OK but what makes it rubbish is the price.

cheers 

Clint Grimsdale


----------



## G S Haydon (2 Nov 2013)

J_SAMa":2hj9u4rp said:


> G S Haydon":2hj9u4rp said:
> 
> 
> > Sam, corneel is dead right. And your right, you will be able to work just fine with a shorten stone. Although text suggests that no shorter than 200mm is best and the guy who wrote that book was not a jig man at all. Also width was also suggested at around 45mm. My experience with using a long piece of broken slate worktop as an experiment was nicer than the 200mm stone. I think there is a Lie-Nielsen factory tour vid that shows blades being honed on stones much longer than standard, freehand too from memory. Just checked, here it is http://youtu.be/NsGMOVtddlM?t=3m11s
> ...



The only comment I can give, and this is not with experience "wider ones will hollow quickly and require frequent rubbing down" something you will never have to worry about with your diamond plate


----------



## RB61 (2 Nov 2013)

Jacob":19ljuq3o said:


> J_SAMa":19ljuq3o said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":19ljuq3o said:
> ...



I was too tired to read all of the posts to see if someone else mentioned this: Didn't Mr. Cosman contaminate his fine stone when he moved his blade from a coarser stone to his fine stone without removing the coarser grit/swarf?


----------



## J_SAMa (2 Nov 2013)

RB61":1d2xb5t7 said:


> I was too tired to read all of the posts to see if someone else mentioned this: Didn't Mr. Cosman contaminate his fine stone when he moved his blade from a coarser stone to his fine stone without removing the coarser grit/swarf?



Here's the thing with swarf (especially waterstone swarf): it is (much) finer than the stone. That means the swarf particles from a #1000 stone are not #1000 in size, but much smaller. So the swarf from his coarser stone is probably as fine as his finer stone.
And that is due to the fact that the particles on the stone fracturing into smaller particles... Or something 8)


----------



## Corneel (2 Nov 2013)

News I read on another forum (woodnet).

_Direct from Warren, ME: 

"Thank you for your inquiry! The new honing guide is into early 
production stages and should start shipping by Thanksgiving. We are 
going to produce a single honing guide with one additional set of jaws 
that fits Mortise blades, and then in the new year we will start 
releasing additional jaws for all different types of blades, such as 
skews. Eventually we hope to offer a full set, but the starting Guide 
will be around $100. We are taking preorders, [and] we can just give you a call when they 
come in." 
_

Looks like I can keep ANOTHER 100 dollar in my pocket. Plus all the extras of course.


----------



## Vann (2 Nov 2013)

woodnet":bpxj8d6f said:


> The new honing guide is into early production stages and should start shipping by Thanksgiving. We are going to produce a single honing guide with one additional set of jaws
> that fits Mortise blades, and then in the new year we will start releasing additional jaws for all different types of blades, such as skews. Eventually we hope to offer a full set, but the starting Guide
> will be around $100. We are taking preorders, [and] we can just give you a call when they come in."[/i]


yah, another toy... :mrgreen: 

And you heard it here in the _Hand Tools_ section where it most definitely IS about the toys.. err the tools. 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Harbo (2 Nov 2013)

Yes I've decided not to buy another Bentley so that's £250k in my pocket - I don't think!


----------



## Corneel (3 Nov 2013)

Well, as long as you don't spend the 250k on things you really need, then it would still be yours!


----------

