# Newbie balls up?



## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

I'm completely new to woodworking, so please bear with me. I have an old beech tree in chunks that was cut down about 3 years ago. I would like to make a few things with it and I thought as a test I would take a small piece about 9 x 5" and make a cheeseboard. What should I have finished it with once sanded? And have I made a mistake and ruined it as a cheeseboard because I treated it with Walnut oil first? Being very dry it soaked in very quickly. Thanks for any advice gents.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Jul 2013)

It's the wrong choice of timber for a cheeseboard, as it would be unhygienic. It would possibly be ok for presentation alone, though - you'd have to treat it with polyurethane, plastic, or maybe osmo - something waterproof, and not cut on it. As you've seen, anything moist will just soak into it. Non spalted beech would be fine.


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## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

Thanks Phil. I doubt whether any treatment will stick to it, as it's been liberally rubbed with Walnut Oil. The chunks I have are too small to plank, so this piece about 3/4" think was cut with a chainsaw, then belt sanded. I've just bought a bandsaw, table saw and wood lathe + tools, so I'll look at making things other than cheeseboards. Thanks for reply.


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## Kalimna (10 Jul 2013)

A slight addition to Phil.p's post. Had it been kiln dried, the spalting would have been ok, but having been air dried, the fungal colonies giving the 'watermark' pattern could still in theory release viable spores. Kiln drying should prevent them from doing so. For a suitable finish (for suitable timber), plain foodgrade mineral oil is your best bet, sold under the label 'food safe finish'. There are those who would argue that no finish is necessary at all, but I certainly prefer the deeper hues of oil to plain. Olive oil, frequently recommended, is perhaps best avoided as it doesn't fully 'cure' and can have a tendency to go rancid. Not sure about walnut, but I seem to recall it as being ok.

Cheers,
Adam


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## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

Thank you Adam - very helpful. I'll use the timber for bowls, tool handles, boxes etc...then. Thanks again.


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Jul 2013)

Bowls. Spalted beech. Oh yes


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Jul 2013)

I believe walnut oil is one of the only veg or nut oils that polymerize.


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## joethedrummer (10 Jul 2013)

That wood grain is fantastic,,and some people say "it"s only wood" Oh Yeah?


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## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

Thank you Bob. Sorry Phil - polymerize?? As in seal the wood do you mean?


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2013)

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I doubt the fungus is at all toxic - they worry a lot on here! Just use it as a cheese board and see how it lasts. If it's soft probably not very long! Then bung it in the fire.
Basically you need to get stuck in and not worry about being "correct" etc. etc.
Be prepared to make a lot of balls ups and waste a lot of wood, it's the only way to learn.
NB olive oil is perfectly OK. I have a 30 year old elm salad bowl which is regularly doused in olive oil. It smells a bit garlicky sometimes but we haven't died of food poisoning yet.

PS wall nut oil is expensive and wasted as a wood treatment. Linseed is fine but a bit smelly until it has gone off. But most food boards don't have any treatment applied.


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## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

Thanks Jacob - getting stuck in is right up my alley.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Jul 2013)

Jacob - I wasn't thinking of the wood being in any way toxic, just worried that being soft and very porous it would absorb anything wet or sweaty that was put on it, which wouldn't be very hygienic.


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## Kalimna (10 Jul 2013)

The fungal spores present in spalting may very well be toxic. And unless someone who is knowledgable enough to tell me otherwise (a mycologist or microbiologist specialisising in fungal infections), then I stand by that. Fungal spores are amongst the most insidious of infective elements, and fungal infections amongst the most difficult to treat.
A flippant remark along the lines of "I doubt the fungus is at all toxic" is not helpful.
Not all fungi are toxic, but some are, and some of the most potent anti-biological compounds are derived from fungi. 


Adam


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2013)

:lol: 
Spaltered wood has been very fashionable for a long time. If it was hazardous I think we would all know by now!


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## Kalimna (10 Jul 2013)

People smoked tobacco for a long time before they realised what a killer it is. Try not to be so obtuse. I am not saying that spalted wood is definitely dangerous, merely that it has the potential to be, unless treated appropriately.

Adam


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## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

Blimey - more research for me maybe?


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2013)

Kalimna":220xgqjq said:


> People smoked tobacco for a long time before they realised what a killer it is. Try not to be so obtuse. I am not saying that spalted wood is definitely dangerous, merely that it has the potential to be, unless treated appropriately.
> 
> Adam


Many things have the potential to be dangerous but there are usually clues, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to go anywhere without a micro-biologist! Do wood turners die young?


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2013)

Kryten":1uqla6by said:


> Blimey - more research for me maybe?


Just drop in on your nearest mycologist or microbiologist specialisising in fungal infections. Better safe than sorry. :roll:


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## monkeybiter (10 Jul 2013)

Kryten that certainly is a lovely piece of wood, worth making the most of. The physical characteristics of all the spalted beech I've come across would lend it's self best to a decorative use.


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## Kalimna (10 Jul 2013)

Jacob, and I really shouldnt rise to this, but more people would take you, your experience, and your sometimes very good advice seriously if you weren't such a pillock on occasion. I am trying to offer sensible advice to someone regarding a potential health risk and you belittle and laugh it off like a playground bully. I could list many, many things that people did/used for a long time that are now realised to be major health concerns. Lead in pipes/paint/fuel, asbestos. Sun exposure. Dust exposure. Alcohol. And that's just a start. Just because people did something in the past does not mean it is a good or healthy thing to do. Traditions only exist because something better or safer has yet to come along.

To Kryten - I am attempting to offer you reasonable advice, and I apologise to you if I may have led to this threads derailment. Spalted beech is a lovely timber and you should not avoid using it. But to have it in frequent contact with moist food (eg cheese) might not be the best course. Google it, collate the evidence and use your own judgment.
And don't forget to post pictures of the finished article, whatever it may be.
Oh, and if you find that it is too soft, you might be able to wick thin superglue to toughen it up.

Cheers,
Adam


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## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

Mike, thank you, perhaps what I may do is bandsaw it in half for a box or similar.

Adam, also, thank you for your well meant advice, no apology necessary. And sincere thanks to all who have posted with their ideas, it is much appreciated.

My biggest problem is that I have several large sections, probably just under a tonne, which I have not been able to plank due to their short size, and being a beginner with this type of work, am reluctant to ruin through ignorance. We had to cut down this beech tree due to its proximity to our septic tank, and my father (now deceased) planted it about 35 years ago. My bandsaw only has about a 6" jaw (sorry, depth of cut) and parts of the trunk sections are about 2 ft across. So as long as I can make a few things out of it i.e. a box or two, maybe some small bowls, cutting boards (not sure now), I shall be happy.

Thanks to all who kindly answered.

Howard


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## graduate_owner (10 Jul 2013)

It looks like a super piece of wood. Could you change your plan and re-work it into some sort of decorative piece, so that the hygiene aspect would not be an issue. Perhaps a backing plaque for a trophy or medal? Or go really crass and scroll saw it into a key shape, then screw in some hooks to make a key holder. Seriously though, it could be the basis of something stunning.

K


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Jul 2013)

Borrow an electric chainsaw, maybe, and get some decent sized bowl blanks out of it? Actually, you could probably sell enough blanks to buy an electric chain saw.


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## Kalimna (10 Jul 2013)

I am a little far north of yourself, but perhaps there might be someone here close by who may be able to help you out with the best way of utilising the timber, as it often needs to be seen in the flesh to get a good feel for its' potential. If you are new to this, then perhaps the thing to do would be to find somewhere dry to keep it (if possible) until you are more confident/proficient. You mention bowls - if you have a lathe then that might be the best option for now, but you would need some way of reducing the timber size, I imagine. What are the rough dimensions of pieces that you have?

Adam


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2013)

Kalimna":3mm1e0o7 said:


> ..... to have it in frequent contact with moist food (eg cheese) might not be the best course....


No it'll be OK. Cheese is itself crawling with microbes anyway.

Yes bowls could be good. Bowl carving is an alternative to turning and is appropriate to low grade "found" wood which could be unsuitable for finer woodwork.


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## Kryten (10 Jul 2013)

Thanks Gents, very helpful. Adam you are absolutely right, I'll take a photo tomorrow and try to offer some scale. The largest trunk section is about 2ft across but only 6" thick, but there are other sections which are smaller in diameter, approx 16" but much thicker up to about 16-18" - rough guess. I have petrol chainsaws, big enough to rip down the middle. I also have a lot of shorter bits about 6-8" dia. which I have logged to about 18" length, but I suppose they could be turned - yes?


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2013)

Kryten":2q300ldg said:


> ......I also have a lot of shorter bits about 6-8" dia. which I have logged to about 18" length, but I suppose they could be turned - yes?


Ideal for bowl carving - this sort of thing:


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## longinthetooth (10 Jul 2013)

A lot of misinformation going on here. How can spalted beech be 'unhygeinic'? And if dry then the fungus is no longer active or at least is in suspended animation - no 'spores' are going to appear ... If there's a defect, it's that the paler areas may be rather soft - are they (thumbnail test)?


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## Kalimna (10 Jul 2013)

Jacob.
Listeria Monocytogenes is a 'microbe' that can be found on cheese. According to you it must be ok. Well, it is for the 4 out of 5 people who get a listeriosis infection from it. The 1 out of 5? Well, they wont be eating cheese, or anything else for that matter, ever again.
Mycobacterium Tuberculosis. The name should give away the disease it can cause.
Salmonella.
Yersinia.
They are a few of the several 'microbes' that can be found 'crawling all over' cheese. Please research their respective infectious capabilities. 

Kryten - I shall leave the turners amongst the forum to offer advice on how best to utilise your timber for tunring 

Cheers,
Adam

P.S. Jacob - nice bowl idea for those without a lathe.
P.P.S longinthetooth - spores are fungi in suspended animation. That is the whole point. Anthrax spores are the same thing, and you wouldnt want to consume them.


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2013)

Kalimna":39yz47az said:


> Jacob.
> Listeria Monocytogenes is a 'microbe' that can be found on cheese. According to you it must be ok. Well, it is for the 4 out of 5 people who get a listeriosis infection from it. The 1 out of 5? Well, they wont be eating cheese, or anything else for that matter, ever again.
> Mycobacterium Tuberculosis. The name should give away the disease it can cause.
> Salmonella.
> ...


So cheese is off too? Where will this end? :roll:


> P.S. Jacob - nice bowl idea for those without a lathe.


for those sizes of timber perhaps a better alternative to turning even if you have lathe.


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## Leif (12 Jul 2013)

I think there is some scare mongering going on here. The advantage of many hard woods, if not all, is that they contain natural chemicals which kill pathogens. That is why a felled tree takes years if not decades to rot away, even when exposed to the elements. The reason is simply that the tree produces these chemicals as a self defence, since they have to last hundreds of years. And spalted wood is caused when fungi grows into the wood. What you see is the result of the fungus digesting components in the wood. The part of the fungus in the wood is the mycelium, which contains no spores. The spores are produced by fruiting bodies externally. So the spalted wood is quite safe. But use normal hygiene practices of course i.e. wipe clean, and treat with a non toxic oil. I think tung oil is non toxic, and it cures to a hard layer. Apply many coats and you get a good protection. and when it wears you could always refinish it. 

That wood is wonderful. It deserves to be used for display purposes. Spalted wood (maple?) is sometimes used for guitar bodies, in veneer form of course. I think it is too beautiful to be used for a day to day object. Could you not make something to place on the mantlepiece, or in a glass fronted cabinet? 

By the way, if you want scaremongering, not long ago a chap died from aspergillosis caught from spores inhaled when he handled compost.


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## Kryten (12 Jul 2013)

Thank you Leif, extremely informative. I'm sure I can find some use for it for display purposes. I used Walnut oil originally, so whether Tung oil (if I can find some) will soak in I do not know. But I prefer your suggestion of using it for display. Any ideas for that most welcome.
Thanks again.


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## RogerS (14 Jul 2013)

Kalimna":39x18vb4 said:


> Jacob, and I really shouldnt rise to this, but more people would take you, your experience, and your sometimes very good advice seriously if you weren't such a pillock on occasion. ......
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam



That's why I put him on Ignore.

Your advice is very sound, Adam.


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## OldWood (4 Aug 2013)

Re. problems with spalted beech, I would go with Leif on this one in that spores only come from fruiting bodies. The pro-spores school here could argue that it is not known if fruiting bodies have existed and therefore there could be spores around - accepted, but the concentration will be very low now.

One thing that few people know is that if something is dried below 18%RH any mould (fungus) or bacteria cell will die due to all the moisture being sucked out of the cell. I first learnt this from keeping bees who 'dry' honey to this level before sealing the cells, and then met up with someone in the grain storage business who said the same RH level applies there too.

Any wood to be turned dry should be well below 18%. Fresh 'wet' wood will be as high as 30% - typically it will be 60% when growing and will lose half of that as free water when the tree is felled. Turning wet, even damp, beech where spalting is present is not advisable as the fungus cells will still be active and have been recorded as causing lung problems.

The discussions above are both correct in my opinion but for the wrong reasons. 

Rob


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2013)

OldWood":3ugakg76 said:


> Any wood to be turned dry should be well below 18%. Fresh 'wet' wood will be as high as 30% - typically it will be 60% when growing and will lose half of that as free water when the tree is felled. Turning wet, even damp, beech where spalting is present is not advisable as the fungus cells will still be active and have been recorded as causing lung problems....


Have you any evidence of this? 
Why should wood be turned below 18%? Yes wood needs to be below 20% ish to prevent rot but this doesn't mean it can't be turned. In fact the sooner the better as it will dry quicker with less risk of splitting.
Turning wet wood is widespread, for a number of good reasons. Fungus infection is common. If there really was a problem I think it would be well documented by now, but all we have is a few rumours.


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## RogerS (4 Aug 2013)

Googling *spalted turning fungus lung problem* produces some good results


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## Tetsuaiga (4 Aug 2013)

Looks nice. I probably wouldn't worry too much, you arn't using it for raw meats and you can wash it with something like vinegar every now and then. I'm not sure but perhaps its a little thin for the grain direction, if it dropped perhaps it would break along the grain lines, just a thought i'm not really sure.


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## Kryten (4 Aug 2013)

Guys
I really appreciate all your advice and taking the time to offer your help. It does look as though after Googling that it is 'fairly' safe to use for say, cheese for example. But maybe as suggested earlier in the thread, I should do something more decorative with it. I've acquired a bandsaw since I first posted, and as this beech is between 17mm - 19mm thick so maybe I might saw it down the middle and make a small box or something. I just need to practice on my corner joints or dovetails first.


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## Leif (4 Aug 2013)

Do post photos of the finished article. 



RogerS":2rem3yil said:


> Googling *spalted turning fungus lung problem* produces some good results



I could not find anything substantiated, although I did not search for long. 

To those who worry, the air is laden with spores, especially in the autumn. A single fruiting body can produce billions of spores, and I think some people are allergic to fungal spores, as I am allergic to pollen in June which I think comes from crops. So a few spores is nothing to worry about. Bacterial spores are another issues, and you don't want anthrax spores in your lungs. 

The earlier poster is correct that fungi cannot grow on dry wood, although dry rot will breakdown dry wood once it has become established. It needs damp wood to gain hold, and then apparently can live off wood at 20% moisture content. The reason why fungi are in general not a threat to us is because our body temperature is (only just) too high for fungi to grow. It has been suggested that the reason why our body temperature is so elevated is to avoid fungal infection. So even if you do inhale fungal spores - and you do so every day - you will not see mushrooms growing on your body, or in your lungs. 

I think you need to worry more about inhaling wood dust, and the chemical vapours in some varnishes and other finishes.


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## riclepp (5 Aug 2013)

Oh for chist sake, why don't we all just jump into our graves early and be done with it!!!! The Op asked a simple question, he didnt ask for scarmongary or Darwins Theory. I agree with some of the other post, that lovely wood should be displayed and not used as a cheese or chopping board, regardless of how safe or unsafe it may be. I am no microbiologist or scientist and do not have a clue about a what fungi spore will do to you, and quite frankly I don't care. I am actually interested in what the op has in mind for that wood and the suggestions for it from the other forum members. If that upsets people then so be it, get over it and get back to the point!

I do hope you find a suitable project for the wood and share some pictures with us all.


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## Kryten (6 Aug 2013)

Thanks Richard..lol....much appreciated. I'm not a particularly skilled woodworker, so don't want to screw up, but when I decide what to do with it, I'll certainly post a photo or 2.


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