# Poor english



## lurker (25 Jul 2008)

Am I the only one who is irritated by the misuse of "myself" & "yourself", when people mean me or you.

There is a prevalence of how people usually those who speak to customers saying "yourself" because they seem to think that "you" is somehow too assertive. 

Drives me mad!!! :twisted: :twisted:


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## Tusses (25 Jul 2008)

Chill


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## Gill (25 Jul 2008)

There are so many deviations from standard English grammar that if I was to get worked up every time I encountered one, I'd need therapy :lol: . Instead, I luxuriate in the pompous thought that I'm better educated than the poor old soul who's at fault.

So long as poor grammar doesn't confuse the message, I can tolerate a multitude of sins. I'm probably quite a sinner too!

Gill


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## Saintsman (25 Jul 2008)

Don't start me off................

'Could of' intead of 'could have'...................

'Cheap prices' and 'hot temperatures'.

'Less people' instead of 'fewer people'

'There's' instead of 'there are'

And best of all, the unnecessary apostrophe, as seen in my local petrol station: 'Petrol can's must be used' and 'Crisp's, 50p'

Don't they learn 'em nothing no more ?

Just call me Victor...........................................

Paul


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## woodbloke (25 Jul 2008)

It's not the grammar that winds me up so much but the spelling. I'm not perfick in any way (I always use the spell checker) when it comes to trying to get things right, but I do make the attempt, not withstanding the occasional typo that gets past the checker ('fiends' instead of 'friends' was my latest gaff :lol: ) One that irritates me beyond belief ](*,) is something we had recently...draw instead of draw_*er*_ - Rob...in Meldrew mode.


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## Grinding One (25 Jul 2008)

You have not lived till you visit the good old USA,now you have a country that can ruin any language...  
Ya`ll come back now ya/here


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## mailee (25 Jul 2008)

Unfortunitely most of our bad English comes from the USA. I agree that correct grammar does not seem to be taught anymore. I just ignore it all now as it is so commonplace. :?


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## RogerS (25 Jul 2008)

I hate 'for sure'. What happened to 'certainly'?



woodbloke":1ddrgmpy said:


> It's not the grammar that winds me up so much but the spelling. .


Well, with this little gem of a website, there is no excuse


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

Whilst sympathising with all of the above and deploring the low standards of modern usage, (try some of the DSS papers!) English is an evolving language.
Most of us would have difficulty with works by Darwin which is quite recent, but you might like to try your hand at this and see if you can identify a title.

*ICH wes in one sumere dale
In one swiþe dyele hale
Iherde ich holde grete tale
An vle and one nyhtegale.
5: Þat playd wes stif & starc & strong
Sum hwile softe & lud among;
And eyþer ayeyn oþer swal,
And let þat vuele mod vt al.
And eyþer seyde of oþres custe
10: Þat alre-wrste þat hi ywuste:
& hure & hure of oþres songe
Hi holde playding swiþe stronge.
Þe Nihtegale bigon þo speke
In one hurne of one beche,
*


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## StevieB (25 Jul 2008)

> Instead, I luxuriate in the pompous thought that I'm better educated than the poor old soul who's at fault.



Hmm, why is it that we equate poor English with poor education? One could be a spectacular mathematician, intelligent beyond belief, yet if your written prose is inaccurate the assumption is that you are lacking a good education. Apart from the issue of dyslexia, and the issue of typing slower than your brain thinks, English is not the be all and end all of our education system.

As already stated, language is an evolving phenomenon. It changes and gets adapted, mutated and mutilated into other forms until that form becomes the norm. We may not like text speak, or leetspeak, but why should we assume its use denotes a poor education?

I know plenty of people with PhD's whose written English is poor, but I wouldnt call them poorly educated.

Steve.


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## NickWelford (25 Jul 2008)

Saintsman":1z5nnopo said:


> 'Less people' instead of 'fewer people'



This must be top (of many) of my particular hates.


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

> I know plenty of people with PhD's whose written English is poor, but I wouldnt call them poorly educated.



I would! Many teachers were themselves led to believe in the 60s that punctuation, grammar, spelling etc were not important.
They now tell modern students the same, I know this from my own children/grand children.
That is poor education, not lacking in intelligence though!

Roy.


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## Gill (25 Jul 2008)

Digit":2d7bsox7 said:


> > I know plenty of people with PhD's whose written English is poor, but I wouldnt call them poorly educated.
> 
> 
> 
> I would!



Me too! An education which fails to instil a comprehension of basic skills is an inadequate education. For instance you might be the most skilled specialist in the world, but if you can't communicate adequately with your peers then your potential will not be realised.

Gill


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## StevieB (25 Jul 2008)

You miss my point - they are only poorly educated in English, not necessarily poorly educated in everything. 

The BBC news website did a feature recently on why it is seen as almost cool, and certainly acceptable, to be seen as poor in Maths but not English. (this was in relation to Maths teaching and Britain's position in some league table of countries). There is a tendancy to see English as a benchmark which if one fails to meet it, one is considered in a certain light that they would not be viewed in had they failed to meet a similar benchmark in a different skill.

Do you


> luxuriate in the pompous thought that I'm better educated than the poor old soul who's at fault


 when you can add together two numbers that someone else cannot? Or when you scroll a piece of work that someone else couldnt do? I suspect not. So why do we get that feeling when our English is better than someone elses?

Reading that it sounds like an attack, it isnt meant to be but I am leaving it in because it illustrates my point. Why is English seen as the most important benchmark we all have to meet, and global assumptions drawn about other skill areas if we fail to meet that English benchmark?

Steve.


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## Gill (25 Jul 2008)

Yup  . Luxuriating in pomposity is great fun, but don't let anyone else catch you doing it :-$ :lol: .

Am I really missing your point? I rather think I see it but I disagree  . We all need basic tools to survive in life and good communication skills are important. They're part of how we present ourselves, how we represent what is going on inside our head. Muddled English is often a sign of a muddled mind. I accept there are exceptions, but generally speaking I find this to be true. It's part of presenting ourselves and impressing others. If we can't present ourselves well enough in the first place, we won't be given a chance to make an impression.

Gill


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

I think I can answer that in this manner Steve. As an engineering student I had to achieve a certain written standard in English before I could obtain membership of the Institute. Their reasoning was that as a member I could be expected to achieve a certain degree of seniority.
Later I worked as a development engineer and part of my work included writing technical reports on certain electrical items for the Board.
Bad English would not have been acceptable as they needed to understand exactly what I was telling them
Another example is the requirement for medical doctors to demonstrate a good command of the language.
Look what happened to John Prescott, he was treated as a joke because of his poor command of English, to the degree that his message was often ignored.

Roy.


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## StevieB (25 Jul 2008)

> Another example is the requirement for medical doctors to demonstrate a good command of the language



But why do we assume that if they do not have a good command of English they are a bad doctor, but if they demonstrate a poor ability at Maths the same assumtion is not made? I teach medical students on a daily basis as a job, some have good English some poor, but there is no correlation I have observed as to whether they make good doctors or not in terms of the medical care they provide.

Gill, happy to agree to disagree with you :wink: I am not sure how to luxuriate in pomposity but it sounds like fun! 

Steve.


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## Rich (25 Jul 2008)

Digit":1xfdpxm7 said:


> Whilst sympathising with all of the above and deploring the low standards of modern usage, (try some of the DSS papers!) English is an evolving language.
> Most of us would have difficulty with works by Darwin which is quite recent, but you might like to try your hand at this and see if you can identify a title.
> 
> *ICH wes in one sumere dale
> ...




You've been listening to Stanley Unwin again have'nt you? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Rich.


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

If you check back on my posts Steve you will find that I specifically denied that idea.

*For the best innner picket of the brewflade, Flowers!*
Don't worry you youngsters, the oldsters on here will remember!

Roy.


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## Argee (25 Jul 2008)

StevieB":1jyg4368 said:


> Why is English seen as the most important benchmark we all have to meet, and global assumptions drawn about other skill areas if we fail to meet that English benchmark?


I'm not sure what you mean by _"global assumptions,"_ but in answer to the first part of your quote above, perhaps it's to do with the fact that it's mainly how we communicate, since English is our National language. Most use is made of this communication by talking and listening, then reading, then writing. Over the years, the standard of accuracy has decreased, the possibility of misinterpretation has increased, but there seems little regard for the importance of either.

In my career I couldn't risk misinterpretation or inaccuracy, although I was expected to cater for all the foibles of language trends, "fashionable" words and phrases, etc. In the not-too-distant past, shorthand skills - particularly Pitman skills - were highly prized, now anyone can type _"how r u doin m8"_ and some even think it's cool.

That aside, language use is a *skill *and - like many others - I like to be proficient at whatever skill I undertake. If that's seen as a benchmark, then what's wrong with that? To do otherwise is, in many cases, bad mannered, mostly lazy and on occasion, disrespectful.

Ray.


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## Anonymous (25 Jul 2008)

Saintsman":16raiohi said:


> Don't start me off................
> 
> 'Could of' intead of 'could have'...................
> 
> ...



and....

there or their when one means they're

or there when meaning their, and vice versa

A few other recent gems:

wright instead of right 
finely instead of finally 
hole rather than whole 
all ways rather than always 
mach when meaning match 
overuseing, not overusing 
'made it's own electric' rather than electricity


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## RogerS (25 Jul 2008)

StevieB":12ks4813 said:


> ..... So why do we get that feeling when our English is better than someone elses?
> 
> ......
> 
> Steve.



Call it grammar? Correct spelling? Use of vocabulary? Is that too much to ask?


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## RogerS (25 Jul 2008)

The Owl and the Nightingale - for Digit


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## Steve Maskery (25 Jul 2008)

In a street in Nottingham is a restaurant sign:
The Thingie - formally known as the Whatsit"
I can't remember the actual names, but you get the idea. Presumably it is informally known as "The Ignoramus".

I once went to pub locally which had a big blackboard on the wall with the various dishes on it. I counted 7 spelling mistakes and, with as much tact as I could muster (draw your own conclusions) pointed them out to the prop.

"We've just had that done by a professional signwriter", was his reply.

In the days when I did magic, I used to carry a little trick in my pocket. It was a small cricket bat, on which I drew chalk crosses which then disappeared, jumped about and reappeared. I have bee known to use the chalk to correct apostrophes, plurals and the like.

It does grieve me to see such a poor use of a language I love, especially the deliberate misuse as in text-speak. But above all it is a matter of being understood. Full stops, commas and hyphens are there to make the text easier to read and understand.

As Lynne Truss points out, there is the world of difference between "extra marital sex" and "extra-marital sex".

I think thatpart of the problem is that people see things written incorrectly so often that many don't even know that it is wrong at all.
S


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## Londoner100 (25 Jul 2008)

For many years (even at school) I was labeled as thick, it is only three years ago after a training session I was classified as dyslexic (why is that such a hard word to spell.) Now this has not given me a green light to blame everything on dyslexia as other things did not help. When I left school we had teachers strikes and no real focus on grama. Most of the people I work with are really good, whilst some are not so patient. gramma, spelling and punctuation do not mean that much to me sometimes and as for the short term memory loss .........................................sorry where was I? We have a few people at work who are fantastically talented people who really struggle to write a sentence, but its easy to get labeled as uneducated. I admire people who find works easy and can construct a sentence that makes sense straight away. On the subject of text talk ( R U OK) even I get wound up by this. It is quite funny when even my spell checker laughs at me.

all the best Ian

ps dyslixia RULES KO


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

> The Owl and the Nightingale - for Digit



That's correct Rog, probably the earliest recorded poetry in the vernacular of the day. I can make out about one word in three, how did you do?

Roy.


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## Anonymous (25 Jul 2008)

Eye al ways troy to right prepay tho eye still youse the spelling chucker two make shore it's wright.


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## mailee (25 Jul 2008)

I agree it is not 'thick' to spell badly but I do think it is down to the education someone receives. By and large many English people are lazy when it comes to learning a language and few speak any other than English. I have met many Chinese students who do speak very good English and could put many of the English youth here to shame. So why is it that a foreigner can speak better English than a born and bred English person? Education! My sister who is much younger than me was educated in the ITA method of reading and I imagined she would not have a good grasp of the English language but luckily at senior school they educated her in the correct English and her English and grammar are very good now. Actually Steve I do remember meeting a sign writer who was a member of the Dyslexia Association and asked hm how he managed, he told me he just got his customers to write down what they wanted. :lol:


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## Steve Maskery (25 Jul 2008)

I haven't had much experience of working with people who are dyslexic, but what little I have had has led me to believe that they try harder than most to make sure that they get it as right as they can. It's laziness and apathy about the language that saddens me most, not a medical handicap.
S


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## BradNaylor (25 Jul 2008)

I have to confess to being something of a pedant when it comes to spelling and correct grammar. 

I went to school in the sixties and seventies when grammar was not being taught as a discipline and 'self-expression' was all. Consequently I have absolutely no idea what a 'definite article' or a 'past participle' are. 

I do however, read. If people read widely good grammar, spelling, and punctuation is absorbed into the sub-conscious and then anything that is wrong just *looks *wrong. 

Bad use of the language comes down to either ignorance or sloppiness. Ignorance I can excuse; sloppiness and laziness however, in my opinion reflects badly on the character of the individual involved. 

When I write a letter or email, make a post on a forum, or even send a text message, I take care to ensure that my spelling, punctuation, and grammar is _reasonably_ correct. (I am taking particular care with this post! :lol: )To me it is simply a matter of good manners and personal pride. 

When I see bad use of the language, I assume that that person is either ignorant or lacks manners and pride. 

Cheers 
Dan


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

I find that to be very true Dan, but reading seems to be a dying art amongst the young.
We had an advert in a shop window locally for some years. Beautiful script, gold paint, the works.

*All Work Gauranteed!*

And the owner of the shop never noticed either!

Roy.


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## dennis (25 Jul 2008)

As bad grammar seems to upset several members of the forum, could I suggest that posts are restricted to those who are always grammatically correct. The forum would then be down to an elite clique of masters of english, but what would happen if horror of horror one of these elite actually made a mistake would it be 3 misspellings and your out or could exceptions be made for the elite.One thing I am sure of is that there would be very few posts compared to now but they would have the satisfaction of knowing that what few posts there were at least they would be grammatically correct.I like many others on this forum have got through life perfectly well without being good at grammar,and I certainly dont intend to change to keep these few who think that they are better than others because they are good at grammar happy.

Dennis


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

Hang on Dennis! Nobody has suggested they believe themselves to be 'better' because they had the good fortune to have a somewhat better eduction than others.
I belong to an archaeological forum and on it is a pro archy, his posts tend to be indecipherable due to a lack of capitalisation, punctuation and poor grammar.
This devalues his field work as he is unable to disseminate his findings, and that is the sort of problem we have been talking about.

Roy.


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## mailee (25 Jul 2008)

Ha ha, I did have to laugh at that Dennis as it reminds me to check my spelling and grammar occasionally. I have a degree in English and still make mistakes.  Not that my English is bad but I try to type too quickly and post without checking. I would definitely not be posting if that was the case. :roll:


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## Jake (25 Jul 2008)

I hate americanisms (except from the mouths or fingers of americans who are of course perfectly entitled to be barbaric) and txtspk, but, as far as spelling and grammar is concerned, although I prefer reading nicely honed language, I'd rather hear what people say whatever their writing style/ability.

I spend a great part of of my working day arguing and debating and finessing the use of language with all sorts of clever people - and there is no-one immune from unprecision, grammatic mistake, typlos and general fluck-upsin commucating what they mene e very now and then, no matter how superior they are (or think they are).


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## Digit (25 Jul 2008)

Very true.

Roy.


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## Green (25 Jul 2008)

so if I had a terrible childhood and was more pre-occupied with avoiding a beating and/or getting a roof over my head than attending english classes and learning perfect grammar I shouldnt be posting here?

You people


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## Jake (25 Jul 2008)

_Some of _you people, please. :lol: 

Ignore them.


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## MrJay (25 Jul 2008)

Saintsman":3vkxl3gw said:


> Don't start me off................
> 
> 'Could of' intead of 'could have'...................
> 
> ...



Errant ellipses is another one.


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## Tusses (25 Jul 2008)

the world is closing in - language is getting mixed up / diluted . its changing. My Daughter doesn't get taught correct grammar in secondary school - it just seems to be the way it is !

I would like it to be the way it used to be - if it ever was ! ? !

but it isn't - so I don't fret about it.

I excelled in art science and maths - and was always useless at spelling. To me - it was illogical, (in my analytical mind) so not worth learning ! I mean - why take up memory space space with stuff that has no logic :?:


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## Shultzy (26 Jul 2008)

Strangely my spelling and grammar have improved since I joined this forum. Maybe its because I'm the type of person who hates the though of somebody looking at my posts and "tut-tutting" at incorrect spelling and bad grammar. Perhaps it's the same thoughts that make me make sure that my woodworking projects are made to the best of my ability even if I don't always succeed.


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

Shultzy":3chzf6c2 said:


> Strangely my spelling and grammar have improved since I joined this forum. Maybe its because I'm the type of person who hates the though of somebody looking at my posts and "tut-tutting" at incorrect spelling and bad grammar. Perhaps it's the same thoughts that make me make sure that my woodworking projects are made to the best of my ability even if I don't always succeed.



Hates the though :?: 

:lol: 

talk about tempting fate


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## Jake (26 Jul 2008)

There's nothing wrong with striving, but little positive about sneering.


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Whilst rejecting utterly any suggestion that _anybody_ should refrain from posting here because of poor grammar etc here is an example of a post from the pro archy I spoke of earlier.



> Hi all im back did you miss me lol .
> Will pop in again soon i have a paper due out in two weeks so after desert for couple of weeks now stuck typing for a couple more of well lol.
> Didnt find any rock boats but there again didnt look to hard lol.



Would you care to read through many pages of a learned paper on Australian Aboriginal culture prepared in this manner?

Roy.


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## MrJay (26 Jul 2008)

Tusses":eu15c62n said:


> its changing...



Trust me, it isn't.


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

MrJay":1upen1nl said:


> Tusses":1upen1nl said:
> 
> 
> > its changing...
> ...



?? are you a Doctor ??


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## Jake (26 Jul 2008)

Digit":3nn5axc0 said:


> Whilst rejecting utterly any suggestion that _anybody_ should refrain from posting here because of poor grammar etc here is an example of a post from the pro archy I spoke of earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Everything's relative, man. 

From my point of view (with the benefit of being able to be slightly judgemental as I believe in some absolutes) there's a distinction between slack-jawed lazyness like that, and people (all of us) who are somewhere on the scale of speaking and writing English between perfectly and perfectly imperfectly.

Not so easy for you, as it's all subjective - as the writer thinks it's OK, what's your ground for complaint?


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## MrJay (26 Jul 2008)

I guess the difference is that the person posting 'that' isn't so confident and is making up for it in cuteness; whereas the rest of us just can't write straight.


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## Gill (26 Jul 2008)

Doncha (sorry) just love it when a lawyer spells 'judgmental' wrong in a thread such as this?

Thanks for the giggle, Jake; I'm sure it was intentional :lol: .

Gill


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Trying to make some sense of it Jake. I have seen some of this gentleman's efforts that defy translation.
As an ex engineer trained in the aviation industry can you imagine the devastation that poor English could cause in, for example, the maintenance sheet of a passenger aircraft?
Why for example is so much legal language still in an archaic form? Because it is understood with complete accuracy and has not been corrupted by common usage. There are times when the accuracy of individual words may be very important.
When Charles 11 first entered St Paul's cathedral he described it as _awful_, meaning that it filled him with awe.
How would you like to be stuck with a set of deeds such as those of my last home that were first written in 1792 if the legal language had changed as much as in that example I have just given with King Charles? Confusion would reign would it not?

Roy.


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## Jake (26 Jul 2008)

Gill":3vuu7yex said:


> Doncha (sorry) just love it when a lawyer spells 'judgmental' wrong in a thread such as this?
> 
> Thanks for the giggle, Jake; I'm sure it was intentional :lol: .
> 
> Gill



Gosh, do I sniff some of that ... whatcha call it, spearioty?

It's usually judgement(al) in proper english, unless it's a judge's judgment.


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## Gill (26 Jul 2008)

I'm luxuriating in pomposity again!

:lol:

Gill


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## Jake (26 Jul 2008)

Sorry to prick your bubble.

I am so trained to remove the 'e', that I have to think about it.


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## Jake (26 Jul 2008)

Digit":5rr0gn6g said:


> Confusion would reign would it not?



Aye - what's wrong with that? :lol:


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Nothing, if you're a lawyer, they make money out of it.

Roy.


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## Jake (26 Jul 2008)

Quite, so cheer up - their perspective is as good as any.


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## Mark68 (26 Jul 2008)

I hate posts like this, i think its just snobbery, i can spell better than you so i must be better than you!! The same as a person who drives a rolls royce looking down their nose at someone who drives a ford, thats all it is..
Does it make a person any better if they spell words correctly,,in the same,does it make a person a lesser person because they cannot spell as good...
I'm not that good at grammar,the same i would imagine as others on here,,and reading a post like this,really does make me mad.
Maybe it should be like hundreds of years ago,,only the rich learned to read and write,,keep the peasant's down!!!!

I use to work with a old bloke years ago who was always calling the youth of that time thick, because according to him they could not read or write.
Then he use to start saying really long words and telling everyone how to spell them,,people soon told him what to do with his words..

Anyway,,all i think it is, is sheer snobbery when people start having a go at other people over their spelling...

My two pence worth..


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## BradNaylor (26 Jul 2008)

It's nothing to do with snobbery - it's about having pride in whatever one does.

I just cannot understand the attitude of ' I'm no good at spelling or grammar and anyone who thinks that this is important is a snob'.

In a woodworking context this is exactly the same as saying 'I'm no good at dovetails so you'll just have to put up with rubbish drawers on this cabinet I've made for you.'

Sounds pretty arrogant, doesn't it? 

Of course, you wouldn't say that. You would make the effort to get better at cutting dovetails until they were of an acceptable standard - or better. What's more, you would feel good about improving your abilities.

So why should aspiring to use the English language properly be any different?

Cheers
Dan


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## dennis (26 Jul 2008)

As this is a woodworking forum I would think that everyone would aspire to be good at woodwork,admittedly it would help if everyone was perfect with their grammar regarding posts,but who would set the bar and at what level would grammar be deemed as acceptable, I would think that there are very few people on this forum who use it perfectly.Grammar is far from the top of my priorities and if it was higher I would join a forum on it. As I have pointed out before a lot of people find it difficult enough posting without having the fear of being rebuked for incorrect grammar.In the time that I have been following this forum I have only had difficulty understanding the intended meaning of a couple of posts, and anyone who does have difficulty understanding a particular post could ask for clarification instead of getting high and mighty and rebuking the poster and possibly putting them off posting again.I may be the odd one out on this forum but I tend to get annoyed about poverty,abuse,all criminallity,wrong doing and all other hardships in the world,and the fact of wether someone cannot spell correctly does not mean a lot to me.

Dennis


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## Argee (26 Jul 2008)

dennis":2ol94mvc said:


> ........ instead of getting high and mighty and rebuking the poster and possibly putting them off posting again.


There have been very few examples of this, surely? The OP was giving an example of what *I* took to be an oral communication anyway, which then led to a few "pet peeves" being aired. Unfortunately, in this thread, this seems impossible to do without polarising attitudes and being less than polite in some cases.

Ray.


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## woodbloke (26 Jul 2008)

Loads of interesting discussion on this one...as one who uses the Spell Checker before each post, it's a shame it has to be in American English...how many have been caught out by 'favorite'  As this is primarily for folk wot reside in the UK, I wish it could be in English English and incidentally, no spelling error came up for 'wot' - Rob


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

Perfectly good word, wot. From 'wit' - Old English, to know.

As in, "I wot not".

But, seriously, the major crime against English isn't spelling or grammar (though that's hardly rocket science), it's punctuation. Poor punctuation screws meaning.

That and using a restricted vocabulary. English is a precise, delicate, accurate language in which it is possible to express so much. And some people chuck that away with the chant that to speak or write carefully is 'snobbish'. The archaeologist's use (3 times) of 'lol' is an example of that. Despicable (to quote Daffy Duck, himself a master of irony).


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

Argee":1y4lgkkz said:


> dennis":1y4lgkkz said:
> 
> 
> > ........ instead of getting high and mighty and rebuking the poster and possibly putting them off posting again.
> ...



Quite. This is what always happens on forums - there are more people shouting 'elitism' and 'snobbery' than those complaining about grammar.

Though why good English shouldn't be high on anyone's agenda escapes me completely.


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## dennis (26 Jul 2008)

Ray says that there have been very few cases of people being pulled up for poor grammar, but I think that there should be none,a polite explanation is all that is neccessary without resorting to statements such as, "It drives me mad when it is misspelled"

Dick says that it is hardly rocket science,but to some of us it might as well be. I personally find punctuation the hardest part but do not let it worry me, as I have said before I have got through life perfectly well up to now with the abilities that I have and as correct grammar is not high on my list of priorities will continue to do so.

Also as I have said before this is a WOODWORKING FORUM and I wonder if the majority of members would prefer to see a post that is perfectly scripted explaining a project that is as rough as [email protected]@oles or one that is poorly scripted explaining one that is brilliantly executed.I know which one that I would go for every time.

Dennis


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

I does seem that some who 'aspire' to be the best they can be with the English language, cant understand that some of us couldn't give a stuff.

I for one have far to many things I AM interested in to worry about something that I am not !

I do aspire to be the best I can be in many things - and indeed, I have reached the top in many things, then I get bored and move on to something else.

I have NEVER seen any point in the average person needing to use perfect language.

I mean - should we all learn Latin ? some may argue that , to get on in life anywhere in the world, it is a must - and in some fields it maybe


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## Gill (26 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":1c4q19a0 said:


> Loads of interesting discussion on this one...as one who uses the Spell Checker before each post, it's a shame it has to be in American English...how many have been caught out by 'favorite'  As this is primarily for folk wot reside in the UK, I wish it could be in English English and incidentally, no spelling error came up for 'wot' - Rob



Which internet browser do you use, Rob? Most have a dictionary plug-in that can be added. I've got the old version of Firefox and there's a 'British English' dictionary plug-in which I've installed. Every time I type something which appears to be misspelled, the browser underlines it faintly in red. It's still not a perfect solution, but it's jolly helpful.

Gill


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## dennis (26 Jul 2008)

I agree with Tusses, I wouldnt go as far as saying I couldnt give a stuff, but I think that the majority of us have other things that we would rather invest our time on.As I have said before as long as we understand the intended meaning of a post perfect grammar is unnecessary,and I stress PERFECT GRAMMAR.

Dennis


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

Tusses":2jxbpmgw said:


> I does seem that some who 'aspire' to be the best they can be with the English language, cant understand that some of us couldn't give a stuff.



True. 

I try to do everything well, don't succeed, but I don't give up before I start.


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Nice philosophy that Smudger, I'd go with that.

Roy.


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## Mark68 (26 Jul 2008)

> Quite. This is what always happens on forums - there are more people shouting 'elitism' and 'snobbery' than those complaining about grammar.


I would say, of course this is going to happen when a topic such as this gets brought up,,ok,If not snobberby, how about "victimisation".
How many people who are brilliant at woodwork,etc, will be put off of posting because their spelling/grammar is not up to other peoples standards?

Ok..lets put another angle to this,,if i started another topic saying "because i white i'm a better person than all other races" , that would be racist and righty so.
So by saying "i'm better than someone who is not as good at spelling as me "" while not being racist as the example above,,must be along similar lines, or a case of elitism..

What we should do, is accept people for who they are, not ridicule them because of something like this....


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

_That_ is ridiculous. If I could remind you of the original post:

"Am I the only one who is irritated by the misuse of "myself" & "yourself", when people mean me or you.

There is a prevalence of how people usually those who speak to customers saying "yourself" because they seem to think that "you" is somehow too assertive.

Drives me mad!!!"

Where is the victimisation in that? In fact, as always, a few people claim that they are being victimised - when they are not - and that using English correctly is somehow wrong, geeky or elitist - which it isn't - as I said before, it isn't rocket science. What some posters are telling us is that they can't be bothered. OK, that's up to them. Just as it's up to other people to gather impressions...


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Here Here! (and is that the correct here, hear?)

Roy.


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

*"Poor English"*


personally - I put it down to the credit crunch


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

That's the wrong here, there. This is the right hear here.


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## Argee (26 Jul 2008)

Where has all this _"You think you're better than me"_ nonsense coming from? "Better educated" does not mean "better than you" and loads of examples of that have already been given. 

I'm disappointed that those who have angrily expressed _*their *_opinion don't concede the right of others to have an _*alternate *_opinion.

Ray


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

And I add here here to that as well.

Roy,


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## Mark68 (26 Jul 2008)

" EAR EAR"" :lol: 

Yes, i know how the topic started,,but read down a few posts,and it has soon changed into about grammar and spelling..(not going to quote people now).

Yes, again,,i know that words such as elitism, racism and victimisation are words that are bounded about too much these days,,maybe explains why this country is in a way like it is,,but thats another topic..

Of course everyone is intitled to their opinion,, but its way too easy to hide behind forums like this and express their views,,would you tell the local builder,mechanic,bank manager etc to their face,that their spelling /grammar etc was terrible and that they should get their act together??

Anyway,you have your views, i've got mine,, plus it's a lovely sunny afternoon and we are sat here in front computers,,,something is certainly wrong..


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Well Mark I have repeatedly stated in this article that spelling etc can be important, and you asked would we tell a builder etc etc etc.
I worked for a period on nights at Vauxhall motors, and each evening the crew had to check in the book what info the charge hand on days had left.
The man's command of English was appalling and frequently it to the whole crew together to try and establish what he had planned for us.
It reached a head one night when we had to admit defeat and take the book to the dept head.
He couldn't believe it! neither could he decipher it, nor could anyone else.
I marked it in blue pencil, gave him 2 out of 10 and said, 'try harder in the future'.
Not surprisingly he was furious.
And we never did find out what he had planned for us!
On another occasion, years later, a senior manager informed me that he was going to give me a written warning for insubordination, when I burst out laughing!
'What's so funny about that?' he asked.
'You couldn't spell the word!'
I was correct, he gave up and nothing happened! Boom Boom!

Roy.


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## RogerS (26 Jul 2008)

Digit":3cdmxu8a said:


> ......
> On another occasion, years later, a senior manager informed me that he was going to give me a written warning for insubordination, when I burst out laughing!
> 'What's so funny about that?' he asked.
> 'You couldn't spell the word!'
> ...



Bet he could spell 'stroppy pipper'  

A close friend of ours, with 30 years plus teaching English, is very depressed that our wonderful education system can turn out a high percentage of kids that can neither read nor write. And they're not dyslexic either as these days at least schools are a bit more enlightened in this respect.


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Probably not, but I could! :lol: 
The insubordination that I was supposedly guilty of was having been requested to attend on the Work's Manager I presented my self at his office.
The door was wide open and the 'gentleman' was studying some paperwork
I stepped inside, tapped on the door, and he never even looked up, just continued turning the pages and totally ignoring my presence.
I waited for some seconds then turned and walked out! What would you have done Rog?

Roy.


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## Rich (26 Jul 2008)

Argee":15kod8i4 said:


> Where has all this _"You think you're better than me"_ nonsense coming from? "Better educated" does not mean "better than you" and loads of examples of that have already been given.
> 
> I'm disappointed that those who have angrily expressed _*their *_opinion don't concede the right of others to have an _*alternate *_opinion.
> 
> Ray



now you know why I don't post very often Ray.  

Regards,
Rich.


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## dennis (26 Jul 2008)

One term that infuriated a couple of people and has been mentioned again on this thread is the use of the word draw instead of drawer. As I pointed out at the time it is a term often used by the people labelled furniture experts on programmes such as the antiques roadshow. I would be interested to know if any of the more knowledgeable people on the forum know whether this is correct terminology or not. But even if it is incorrect I would think that everyone knew what was meant and can see no reason at all to become infuriated by an innocent mistake.

Dennis


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

I think you may be happy in Southern Caroliner - they call them 'Drou-wers'


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## Argee (26 Jul 2008)

dennis":93wp2c5v said:


> One term that infuriated a couple of people and has been mentioned again on this thread is the use of the word draw instead of drawer. ... I would be interested to know if any of the more knowledgeable people on the forum know whether this is correct terminology or not.


I know how to look stuff up - whether that makes me more knowledgeable or not I'm not sure. Anyway:

*Drawer*

Noun - One who, or that which, draws
Noun - One who draws liquor for guests; a waiter in a taproom.
Noun - One who delineates or depicts; a draughtsman; as, a good drawer.
Noun - One who draws a bill of exchange or order for payment; -- the correlative of drawee.
Noun - That which is drawn
*Noun - A sliding box or receptacle in a case, which is opened by pulling or drawing out, and closed by pushing in.*
Noun - An under-garment worn on the lower limbs.

*Draw*

Noun - The act of drawing; draught.
Noun - A lot or chance to be drawn.
Noun - A drawn game or battle, etc.
Noun - That part of a bridge which may be raised, swung round, or drawn aside; the movable part of a drawbridge.

Ray


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

Beg 'pardon Sir ...

but shouldn't this thread title have a capital 'E'


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

dennis":1oqffbpu said:


> One term that infuriated a couple of people and has been mentioned again on this thread is the use of the word draw instead of drawer. As I pointed out at the time it is a term often used by the people labelled furniture experts on programmes such as the antiques roadshow. I would be interested to know if any of the more knowledgeable people on the forum know whether this is correct terminology or not. But even if it is incorrect I would think that everyone knew what was meant and can see no reason at all to become infuriated by an innocent mistake.
> 
> Dennis



The word is drawer. How you can imply the spelling from the oral defeats me.
And 'draw' and 'drawer' are not synonyms, so the possibility for confusion exists, which is, just possibly, why there are different spellings for the two words...


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

Mark68":2sfagoj4 said:


> " EAR EAR"" :lol:
> 
> Yes, i know how the topic started,,but read down a few posts,and it has soon changed into about grammar and spelling..(not going to quote people now).
> 
> ...



So, there's no point in trying, then?


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## Chris Knight (26 Jul 2008)

"Grammar, properly understood, enables us not only to express our meaning fully and clearly, but so to express it as to enable us to defy the ingenuity of man to give our words any other meaning than that which we ourselves intend them to express."

William Cobbett: Grammar


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## dennis (26 Jul 2008)

Dick

Unless it is my hearing that is wrong when I hear someone say draw without sounding er I assume it to be spelled draw just as when I hear someone say straw I assume it to be spelled straw not strawer.But it may just be my hearing I would be interested to know how other people hear it.

Dennis


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## Smudger (26 Jul 2008)

The word is drawer.


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

This is the whole point about the English language that makes me not bother - it is 'illogical captain' spelling often (ofen) has no resemblance to pronunciation . Silent this and that !!! why ! ??? if there ever was a reason to make it this way - is there a reason to keep it this way ? weather whether ware where there their here hear sign (i know it is associated with signature) castle ....... its all stupid in one view - but valid in another !

As long as the context is there , one can usually (intelligently and logically ) work out what the intended meaning is.

I have often thought it's about time there was a world revamp of the English language, that is used so differently by so many people.

Rich


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## Rich (26 Jul 2008)

This is obviously an interesting and moot debate, if I could add my bit and throw in the phrase "drawing room" so called because after dinner the ladies would withdraw from the dining room whilst the men lit up their cigars and drank alcohol, it was originally called the "withdrawing room" and the Ladies did NOT partake in those "filthy habits" (get a life).
IMHO, It's not so much how the word drawer is spelt when in conversation, but more about how it is enunciated, to the listener of a lazy speaker it will sound like "draw" instead of drawer, that's not being snobbish or supercilious, but if you read a decent dictionary, it tells you HOW to pronounce any word correctly, I hope I have'nt offended anyone that finds spelling and reading difficult, I have the same difficulty with sums and mathematics but I can mark the scoreboard for darts like lightning, not everyone is good at everything, but everybody has at least 1 thing they are good at.  

Regards,

Rich.


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

now see ... elocution comes in here - as does local dialect ! with the world 'closing in' one ought really to be spreading their vocabulary to include local / regional and global dialects , in order to converse with the larger regional and global community.

I have traveled the world - and if I couldn't adapt the way I perceive speech and speak it myself, my travels would have been much less enjoyable !


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## Rich (26 Jul 2008)

Get 3 and fourpence we are going to a dance :wink: 

Rich.


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

It's a point that has been considered by many over many years Tuss. G.B.Shaw even going so far as to devise a plan to carry out the changes over a period of years.
Actually the reasons for the peculiarity in 'English' English has a very good reason behind it.
Here beginneth the lesson,
When Caxton first established his printing works in Oxford the language of the educated people in Britain and Europe was either Latin, Greek, or French. The ordinary people spoke what ever was the vernacular in their area, which meant they spoke Cornish, Welsh, Gaelic or any number of totally incompatible dialects.
A man of Kent would have have been speechless in Yorkshire for example.
This was the problem that Caxton faced, if he wanted a mass audience what language should he print in.
The classical dilemma he faced was the word PLOUGH.
In certain parts of the country the task was pronounced as PLOW, in others it was PLOGH.
If you, like me, are deaf, and rely on lip reading you will be aware that you can hold a meaningful conversation with another without understanding every word that is uttered, so with Caxton. By mixing the various words as used in different parts of the country he ensured that his customers would be able to follow what he was saying.
How they pronounced it was upto them.

Roy.


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## Tusses (26 Jul 2008)

> If you, like me, are deaf



I am not deaf - are you ?

I find this interesting on a forum when we are discussing language - written , spoken and heard / lip read.

If you are - it will (even if it shouldn't) make me read your replies in a different light. (just being honest) Especially posts regarding language.

You may or may not gather over time - that I dont judge anyone ,I know nothing of conversing with deaf people. I like to build a picture from posts, and even then I bare in mind the fact I have never met the poster and text is not tactile. That is why we have the smiley's.



[/quote]


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## Digit (26 Jul 2008)

Stone deaf in one ear and use an aid in tother Tuss. Both as the result of injuries.
I was attending a local clinic some time ago and attached to the wall was a poster that basically said, that 'this it what a lip reader will understand.'
Below that was 
THIS .. WHAT . ..P ...D.R W... U.D..S.A.D.
It was the best approximation I have seen. What was missing was the info that lip readers acquire by other means. Facial expressions, various tonal inflections, the use of the hands and other body movement, all of which help to convey the message.
Just as you say we use Smileys here.

Roy.


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

I guess it makes for a more intimate way of conversing - all the body language and facial expressions being paid attention too, whereas someone with good hearing may not take much notice - and may even get the message completely wrong.


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## BradNaylor (27 Jul 2008)

dennis":2tffjmgl said:


> Dick
> 
> Unless it is my hearing that is wrong when I hear someone say draw without sounding er I assume it to be spelled draw just as when I hear someone say straw I assume it to be spelled straw not strawer.But it may just be my hearing I would be interested to know how other people hear it.
> 
> Dennis



Dennis,

'Drawer' is pronounced in exactly the same way as 'draw'. This kind of thing is far from unusual in the English language. Assuming a phonetic spelling for every word would be a mistake.

It's not your hearing. When Arthur Negus says 'draw' he's actually saying 'drawer'.

Or isn't he on the telly any more?

:wink: 

Dan


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

OK - boring didactic post coming up.

In the early 70s I wrote a dissertation on English spelling. The crux is this (from the work of Prof Albrow at London University): English is a borrowing language, taking loan words from many languages.
Each of those languages has its own system for pronunciation and spelling. It brings those systems into English, so English has a polysystemic spelling structure, reflecting all those languages (for details see link above).

This means that English is a fantastically rich and diverse language, capable not only of borrowing but also coining new words as needed or wanted, but there is a price to pay for that richness, which is complication of spelling.

What Shaw (and others) never fully accepted was that to simplify spelling would be, in many cases, to simplify meaning, to rob the language of the very features that make it so wonderful.

And if Arthur Negus was on telly it would be unpleasant, as he died in 1985!


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

LOL ! 'didactic'

another fine word there


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

Why mock? It's the correct word.

I get pretty peed off by this sort of thing. Or should I dumb down to suit you?


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## davegw (27 Jul 2008)

My 2 pence worth

IN MY OPINION:

Written English and Spoken English are two very difficult animals. 

Written English, has some strict grammatical rules, many of which I don't know because I am a victim of a period in education that decided grammar wasn't that important, not to say that teachers didn't try to teach it, they did, but we knew it didn't matter (wouldn't affect exam marks). Has my lack of grammatical knowledge affected my employment prospects - no - but possibly because I took it upon myself as I got older to read more and understand what grammar is. Still not particularly great.

Spoken English: Let me put my cards on the table. I am from East London. I have a regional accent that has been derided not only by outsiders but by my own peers and family (who speak the same way I do) as "common". When I started working in the City of London I was 'advised' to change the way I speak to fit in. I stopped doing this the moment I heard a Geordie manager, talking to a colleague from Manchester about how bad a Cockneys pronunciation was. I don't understand, and never will, why the way I speak (I drop T's and H's for example) is any worse that someone who say's something like "going t' shops" (and therefore dropped an o, t, h and an e!)

English evolves constantly, like all languages. American English and Spellings are actually old english as a concerted effort was made many years ago in America to protect the language for example, fall, sidewalk, and vacation are all originally English words that have fallen from use. I believe a similar difference exists between French and Canadian French, as more effort is made in Canada to protect the Language.

No one should be vilified for not understanding the rules of English, as has been pointed out by others, the Language borrows from other languages and brings different (sometimes contradictory) rules with it. but also when a mistake is made, and pointed out gracefully, the correction should be accepted gracefully.

Finally, for anyone who thinks that English stays still can I suggest the following reading list:

The Original King James Bible
Pilgrims Progress
Romeo and Juliet
Jude the Obscure
Jane Eyre
David Copperfield
The Woman in White
anything by P G Woodhouse
The Wasp Factory 

(Whilst I did spellcheck this message please accept any errors as my own)


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## dennis (27 Jul 2008)

When I was at school one of the english teachers told everyone that english is a very complex language, which I believe to be true. On this forum we have Dick saying that it is not rocket science on the one hand and then saying that spelling can be complicated,with the trouble that the vast majority of people have with getting all aspects of english correct I would say that it is very complicated.Getting to another point as all members of this forum both post and do woodwork to the best of their ability I cannot understand why people are derided for mistakes in english.Say someone posts a picture of some dovetails that they have done,and they are slightly imperfect and they also misspell dovetails,why does it seem perfectly acceptable for some people to say"It infuriates me when someone misspells this word, why cant they get it right"if this is deemed acceptable is it also acceptable to say"It infuriates me when people get dovetails wrong why cant they get it right"as to my mind as they have done both things to the best of their ability I cannot see any difference.

Dan

Thank you for your explanation of draw/drawer, I just think that it would have been more appropriate at the time of the posting error.And Arthur Negus died several years ago so would only appear on telly on repeats.


Dennis


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

Dave

I've never been good on English grammar (despite having a degree in it!) because it is
a) complicated, and
b) not a very good description of the way the language is actually used.

So if you want me to parse a sentence, I can't. I could when I was 11...

The trouble was that in the 18th century the academicians tried to make English fit into a Latin grammar. It doesn't! The same happened with spelling - an example:
In Old English/Middle English there was a very good word for the bit of your face above the eyes - the 'forred'. May have been related to 'forward'. The academicians decide that this was the 'fore head' - the front of the head - which it isn't, of course, but that fitted into their general tidying up. In grammatical terms that also explains why the first person singular past tense of 'to eat' is pronounced 'et' but spelled 'ate'.

I could never raise a lot of enthusiasm for it. I found that reading widely (as you wisely suggest) gave me a familiarity with good English which just allowed me to recognise what is right and what isn't.

Spelling is different, as it bears so much on pronunciation.

And you are so correct about 'Americanisms' - they are very often the original, English spelling. My spell check is telling me that 'recognise' should be 'recognize' - and it is probably right!


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

dennis":1toptueu said:


> When I was at school one of the english teachers told everyone that english is a very complex language, which I believe to be true. On this forum we have Dick saying that it is not rocket science on the one hand and then saying that spelling can be complicated,with the trouble that the vast majority of people have with getting all aspects of english correct I would say that it is very complicated.Getting to another point as all members of this forum both post and do woodwork to the best of their ability I cannot understand why people are derided for mistakes in english.Say someone posts a picture of some dovetails that they have done,and they are slightly imperfect and they also misspell dovetails,why does it seem perfectly acceptable for some people to say"It infuriates me when someone misspells this word, why cant they get it right"if this is deemed acceptable is it also acceptable to say"It infuriates me when people get dovetails wrong why cant they get it right"as to my mind as they have done both things to the best of their ability I cannot see any difference.
> 
> Dan
> 
> ...



If the spelling of dovetail made the meaning unclear, then we would have a problem.

As for the drawer thing - it is simply because people are tactful and don't wish to make someone look foolish (plus the knowledge that there are always people who will make an issue of corrections) that they don't correct on the spot. This used to be called the Chrysanthemum Conundrum. If someone mispronounces a word in conversation with you, do you pronounce the word properly or copy their mispronunciation? Does the same apply in informal media such as the internet?

And it isn't rocket science. We regularly discuss things here which are much harder and require far more expertise and expert advice than spelling.


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## dennis (27 Jul 2008)

That is the whole point Dick, the person involved was made to feel foolish on the spot.

Dennis


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

Really? I thought it was you who raised the use of the word.


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## dennis (27 Jul 2008)

No if you look back at a post asking for information on draw runners you will see what happened. I only stepped in to say that there was confusion over draw/drawer because of the way it is sometimes pronounced and felt that there was no need to deride someone for an innocent mistake.

Dennis


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

Smudger":2ahoaw6v said:


> Why mock? It's the correct word.
> 
> I get pretty peed off by this sort of thing. Or should I dumb down to suit you?



didn't mean to P you off, sorry.

I just saw the humor of the use of such words on a thread about poor state of peoples ability to use /understand the language.

Don't dumb it down on my account - but maybe consider that this thread might have a point, and by using 'correct' words you are less likely to communicate effectively with the full readership of the forum.
[/i]


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

So you are saying dumb it down because the people here won't understand?

I think you are underestimating them very badly indeed.


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

I didn't say they wouldn't understand - although there might be some that don't ! 

I said 'communicate effectively' , it's different. Just because a word has the correct meaning for what you are trying to say doesn't make it the best word for getting the message across - would you not agree ?

apart from anything else, we do have foreign members too


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

I don't agree.


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## dennis (27 Jul 2008)

I understand what Tusses is saying as sometimes choice of words although correct can sometimes slightly complicate the message intended.Where I work every task no matter how simple requires a permit to work stating any hazards likely to be encountered,methods to be used and what safety equipment to be worn.One point that I regularly get is,care to be taken when using sharp tools which I find after over 45 years joinering amusing and generally say that I am safe enough as all my tools are blunt.Not so long ago I had one that said,Please ensure removal of all waste materials generated through working practice.I think a simple,clean up, would have been enough.


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

I didn't think you would  but nowt wrong with that !

probably best we leave it at disagreeing then.

8) 

on topic .... I am on another forum where there is a very nice young lady who spells the odd word as it sounds - like 'meny'

I've met her and she is as nice as they come, I dont think anything lass of her for it. My spelling is terrible - as I find it tedious, so I am not inclined to improve. I mean ... I before E except after C ... but it doesn't work, and there is no logic as to when it should ! Maybe there is, if I was to dig a little deeper into the history of the English language ? - but without the interest, it aint gonna happen 

I try when it matters - but most of the time, if I spot a mistake, I will leave it.

Give me computer programming any day - and yes, when programming you HAVE to spell correctly or it wont compile. Hex - Binary C+ OOPs ... all logical and I love it.

on the other hand I like ancient Chinese philosophy and that has a logic all of it's own ! go figure :?


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## Mark68 (27 Jul 2008)

Tusses,,leave it there if i was you my friend,,, *cus u ain't gonna win*!!!


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

Mark68":3tyquwdf said:


> Tusses,,leave it there if i was you my friend,,, *cus u ain't gonna win*!!!



tiz left already !

and its not about winning - just the fun of the 'debate'


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## Digit (27 Jul 2008)

Perhaps it's time to draw/drawer a veil/vale across or a line through/threw this debate before it becomes heated, otherwise who knows/nose where/wear/ware it might/mite finish/Finnish and we could be/Bee here/hear all night/Knight!

Roy.


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## Anonymous (27 Jul 2008)

I find this thread both shocking and appalling. There are people here defending bad grammar, punctuation, and spelling.

Just take a second and think about what you are really saying when you take such a stance!!!! :roll: 


http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

I'm not going to read it all again - but I don't recall anyone saying poor English is a good thing ?

Just that some people such as yourself  are more bothered about it than others, such as myself 

just two different takes on the subject


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

Do you not see that your last post does exactly that - it defends poor spelling, grammar and punctuation?

I give up. We live in a dumbed down world, who am I to try to change that?


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## Tusses (27 Jul 2008)

Smudger":tb464kjt said:


> Do you not see that your last post does exactly that - it defends poor spelling, grammar and punctuation?
> 
> I give up. We live in a dumbed down world, who am I to try to change that?



notice the winks  I took the two words from the first post that this thread is all about

BTW - the winks  mean its in jest, or light hearted, or in other words, don't take it too seriously 

oh - and that last smile meant 'lets be friends' !


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## Digit (27 Jul 2008)

For those who have trouble handling the English language they should try their hand at Wenglish

*If you need a new Battri or a set of Tiers for your Caer you will need to visit a Garrig. Locally you can also get Siocs and a Zorst fitted whilst you have a Coffi at nearby Caffi along with perhaps a Fflan then Ffon to find out how the work is progressing or whether you will need a Tacsi home.*

With apologies to those who live in other areas of Wales as the spelling is still subject to variety with, for example, five different spellings for one local village.

Roy.


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## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

I took the smileys to be somewhat sarcastic, I don't see how they change the gist of the post.

Probably better not to use them, but to express what you want to say in good, clear English.


----------



## Mark68 (27 Jul 2008)

](*,)


----------



## Smudger (27 Jul 2008)

Digit":uo1bfu0t said:


> For those who have trouble handling the English language they should try their hand at Wenglish
> 
> *If you need a new Battri or a set of Tiers for your Caer you will need to visit a Garrig. Locally you can also get Siocs and a Zorst fitted whilst you have a Coffi at nearby Caffi along with perhaps a Fflan then Ffon to find out how the work is progressing or whether you will need a Tacsi home.*
> 
> ...



What is the defining Welsh experience (no, not that one) - Rugby football?

What is the Welsh word for Rugby? Rygbi.

Apparently it is taught in yscols, and people join clwbs.

Easy to make fun of, but in the modern world all languages borrow from each other, although some Welsh speakers seem to deny it.

I recently had the experience of Welsh speakers stopping speaking English when my wife and I sat at the next table in a restaurant, and starting to speak Welsh. We were in France. That's insulting.


----------



## Digit (27 Jul 2008)

Whilst agreeing with you in general in lamenting the decline in standards Smudger you and I are facing a losing battle!
Just take a look at any document issued by any authority in this country. Simple DSS paperwork is supplied in language that is most definitely dumbed down, and where it isn't it tends to be full of made up words and phrases that are only understood by their composer.
An example, 'such and such gets you x payment'
How about 'you receive' or do they suppose that we are all semi-illiterate?
And how about the near universal, 'I ain't done nuffink?'

Roy.


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## Digit (27 Jul 2008)

I wasn't making fun at all Smudger, you are of course quite correct about languages borrowing from others. Modern English has, I'm told, three times as many words as the next nearest, many of them borrowed. Certainly we use French, Norman French, German, Latin, Greek, Yiddish, Italian, Gaelic, Serbo-Croat, Aboriginal, Chinese, Japanese and Malay.
Modern Welsh is an admixture of Middle English, Latin, Norman French and modern English.
Our language is the most flexible in the world.

Roy.


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## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

I've been using forums and chat groups on the internet for about 14 years now. I have developed an automatic use of smilies and the like. It's now second nature, and I guess it is to a lot of people on the tinterweb. I suppose it is a kind of internet grammar ? In the early days, there was an etiquette FAQ regarding Smilies and sigs etc, that you had to read before posting. It would soon be obvious if you hadn't and you would be 'flamed'

So when on a forum - I type in forum mode - not in english. the hyphens are there because some forum servers dont format as you would expect - and delete spaces and punctuation . its a throw back to the days when bandwidth was a scarce resource .

Just like the kidz with there txt speek - . The mobile text language was adapted from the bullitin board language - again to save bandwith



But it is the way it is, as far as I can see, and will continue to be so. whether you , me , or anyone else likes it or not.


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## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

Ah, but that is horses for courses Tus, and I also see nothing wrong with it, when used in context.
In the days when I hired and fired a job application in Txt would simply have been binned.
Shorthand versions of normal writing have been around since at least the days of the telegraph, and are appropriate to each case.

Roy


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## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

I don't know where you are in Wales Digit,,but i have friends over the bridge,,and have been told that if they go up to north Wales the same thing happens to them,,as happened to Smudger in France..And correct me if i am wrong, but was the language a dead one in the past??
Even though it has been brought back now..

Back to the topic...
Whilst not seeing eye to eye with your opinions,,i do agree that the standards are falling,,,i hate text speak,and the so called modern words such as "bling".. but i can't see the need to come on a forum and have a go at people who are maybe not so well educated as yourself's.
Its a big wide world, made up of many different people,,some well educated,some not so..
What we need to do is accept people for who they are,,not how well they are educated..
In a perfect world,we might all be well educated and be doctors,bank managers,vets, etc, but its not a perfect word,,and people have different levels of learning.
What we need is people to stop crowing on about how well they are educated,and how they can write perfect English, and maybe start talking about how the system has gone wrong and how to change it!!!


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## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

Just on the above,,if its comes out angry,,its not meant to...


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## Anonymous (28 Jul 2008)

Tony":16fjpfs4 said:


> I find this thread both shocking and appalling. There are people here defending bad grammar, punctuation*,* and spelling.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/



Err.... cough - should that be there? :?


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

Stylistic choice. Honest. I'd put a red ring round it, but expect an argument!

On the Welsh thing, how much of 'learned' Welsh is a middle-class identity thing?

I ask because years ago I was mentoring a teacher-training student (who eventually decided to give up, which was a wise choice) and he had been made to learn Welsh by his headmaster father, and resented it mightily. He told me that it was just the middle classes who rather forced it on other people, a bit like the Welsh Nationalists.


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## Anonymous (28 Jul 2008)

Smudger":286xvysl said:


> Stylistic choice. Honest. I'd put a red ring round it, but expect an argument!



Just checked Smudger, apparently it is 'The Oxford comma' :? and some say it is OK, some say not? Still :?


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## Anonymous (28 Jul 2008)

And it's STILL *24.7* degrees in my bedroom. :roll:


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## BradNaylor (28 Jul 2008)

Tusses":350r0qj3 said:


> Smudger":350r0qj3 said:
> 
> 
> > Why mock? It's the correct word.
> ...



If you had asked me what 'didactic' meant, I would have floundered a little.

Following Dick's use of the word in its correct context however, I now know exactly what it means, and how to use it.

And I probably will.

This is how language is learnt - from experience of it. It is a learning process that continues throughout life; the encountering of a new word is something to be welcomed as it adds to one's vocabulary.

To deride someone, even tongue in cheek, for using an unfamiliar word simply demonstrates one's own ignorance.

Indeed, this is the nub if the discussion. Incorrect use of English makes a person look thick. 

They may not *be* thick, but they *appear* thick. That is the overriding impression that the average person will get of them.

I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather that people had a more favourable impression of me - therefore I take a degree of care in the way I speak and write. 




Tony":350r0qj3 said:


> I find this thread both shocking and appalling. There are people here defending bad grammar, punctuation, and spelling.



Personally, I always include the comma before the 'and' in a list of items. A comma is used to indicate a pause in the flow of speech, and to my mind there is a pause before the 'and'.

Therefore the comma.

Cheers
Dan


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## dennis (28 Jul 2008)

Tony
Says that people are defending the right to use bad grammer.Which in most cases is untrue.They are pointing out the fact that most peoples grammar is not up to a given standard, my own very much included.And as most people use it to the best of there ability that should suffice.We do not all have the time or the inclination to go to classes or study to improve it, everyone has different priorities.As has been said several times as long as the intended meaning is understood that is all that really matters.Also the use of smilies has been mentioned, I do not use them personally as they can sometimes be confusing and taken the wrong way as Dick pointed out earlier.

Dennis


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## lurker (28 Jul 2008)

Blimey :shock: :shock: 
What have I started!!

Actually, you all grabbed the wrong end of the stick in someways:

I WAS trying to suggest the misuse of myself & yourself was a delusion by these people that their "posh use" (albiet wrong!!) somehow indicates a superior use of Engilsh.


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## BradNaylor (28 Jul 2008)

When it comes to forum posts, my pet hate is not spelling, punctuation, _or _grammar.

It is the lack of use of paragraphs!

The simple act of starting a new line or paragraph every now and then can render an otherwise unreadable post legible and easily understood.

What's more, it requires absolutely no knowledge of grammar.

Cheers
Dan


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## woodbloke (28 Jul 2008)

Some great stuff on this thread.

Regarding Tony's 'coma', I was taught that there should _not_ be one immediately before an 'and' having been brought up in an education system that taught grammar _and_ Copperplate handwriting :shock: I can't abide text speak under any circumstances (what's an M8, do they exist, am I one :? ?)

I make the attempt to use the Queen's english as well I can, not always as successfully as I would have wanted as sometimes the meaning of what I'm trying to say becomes misplaced and it becomes tricky to convey the exact nuances of the language...hence the use of the smilies to reinforce the poster's emotional angle on the point.

Paragraphed for Dan :lol:...good point, will keep that in mind - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":3mnk6po8 said:


> what's an M8, do they exist, am I one :? ?



Init that metric stuff :?


----------



## woodbloke (28 Jul 2008)

Paul Chapman":3oy5q1pa said:


> woodbloke":3oy5q1pa said:
> 
> 
> > what's an M8, do they exist, am I one :? ?
> ...



:lol: - Rob


----------



## Steve Maskery (28 Jul 2008)

My understanding is that a comma should not be used before "and" when the "and" is linking two clauses, but can be used when the "and" is the last element of a list. It's an Oxford Comma, isn't it?

Personally I think that a comma before "and" improves readability no end, so I often use it. It saves having to go back and read the sentence again to make sure that I have phrased it in my head correctly.

S


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jul 2008)

If you want to know about punctuation, it's really worth reading "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" by Lynne Truss - excellent and humorous.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Karl (28 Jul 2008)

Paul Chapman":1g09esdi said:


> If you want to know about punctuation, it's really worth reading "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" by Lynne Truss - excellent and humorous.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



I haven't read the book, but the title must be from the joke about the Panda bear.

Cheers

Karl


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## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

I was taught no comma before an and, in any circumstances. But then again, I was taught one space after a comma and two after a full stop... How to set out a letter, indent the 1st paragraph ... write the address on the envelope etc etc 

Apparently things have changed and 'they dont do it that way anymore' in the few places it is still taught, so that doesn't help the situation either.


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## lurker (28 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":mqqj8wm8 said:


> (what's an M8, do they exist, am I one :? ?)



As any fule no - it is a M8, not an M8 :roll:


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jul 2008)

Isn't one of the problems that much of the English language has evolved through common usage - and continues to do so. It is, therefore, very difficult to say what is correct. Something may have been correct a few years ago but has evolved, changed and become accepted through common usage. 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## lurker (28 Jul 2008)

Paul,

So............. if I follow your theory of evolution and deck every pretentious . who misuses "myself" & "yourself", it's use might die out ??? :wink:


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## herdsman (28 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":fh8stopz said:


> Some great stuff on this thread.
> 
> I can't abide text speak under any circumstances (what's an M8, do they exist, am I one :? ?)
> 
> Rob



Yes it does exist, it's a motorway in Scotland


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jul 2008)

One thing I find fascinating about all this is that many children struggle with English, grammar, spelling and punctuation. However, they have mastered text speak (should that be 'txt spk' :? ) without difficulty. 

I would class text speak as a new language and learning it no different, in principle, from learning any other language.

Maybe they saw nothing in it for them to learn English properly but they saw plenty in it (ie keeping in with their mates - M8s 8) ) to learn text speak :wink: 

Of course, later in life they find that there was plenty of value in learning English properly - but it's a bit late then  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

Morning Mark. No the Welsh language never died out despite the best efforts of the English government up till the early 20C.
The language is in every day use in this area but it actually has two distinct forms.
The Norman French cut the country in two, north and south of the R Teifi at Cardigan, and believe it or not a degree of animosity still exists between the two areas. With the Norman French in control of parts the language separated slightly.
Church, for example is Llan in the north and Eglwys in the south, in my area the two overlap and the Welsh Language Society is quite frequently in conflict with local opinion on naming.

Roy.


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## BradNaylor (28 Jul 2008)

Digit":36dch1v5 said:


> Church, for example is Llan in the north and Eglwys in the south, in my area the two overlap and the Welsh Language Society is quite frequently in conflict with local opinion on naming.
> 
> Roy.



Not always, Roy.

The village of Eglwysbach (little church) is near Conwy, definitely in _North _Wales!

Dan


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## Argee (28 Jul 2008)

Paul Chapman":8sxeq57a said:


> It is, therefore, very difficult to say what is correct.


Now we've travelled full circle! 

No, it _*isn't*_ difficult to say what's correct, it just takes more thought and effort, which was *lurker*'s main point in the first place, I think.

Ray.


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## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

Argee":3qiee2av said:


> Paul Chapman":3qiee2av said:
> 
> 
> > It is, therefore, very difficult to say what is correct.
> ...



but surely if each generation learns a 'new' set of rules - then each generation would think the other is incorrect.

Except those that can see it is changing 

the difference here is good/poor and correct/incorrect - somewhere inbetween thee must be a line ?


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jul 2008)

Argee":1l0xcblz said:


> Paul Chapman":1l0xcblz said:
> 
> 
> > It is, therefore, very difficult to say what is correct.
> ...



I think it can be difficult insofar as things change and move on. For example, when I started work, you would always address someone when writing to them as follows (assuming the person was a bloke):

P. N. Chapman, Esq.,

Then the convention changed to:

P N Chapman Esq where the punctuation was dropped.

Then we moved to:

Mr P N Chapman as a less formal approach tended to be adopted.

Then because of all the sexist stuff it changed to

P N Chapman or

Paul Chapman

So in that sense, it can be difficult to say what is 'right'. In the above examples, I think you could say that they are all right, or possibly none is wrong. But they are all different, which can make it difficult for people.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (28 Jul 2008)

Paul Chapman":dks1cqms said:


> Argee":dks1cqms said:
> 
> 
> > Paul Chapman":dks1cqms said:
> ...



Paul - I think your Christmas card this year will be addressed to Paul Chapman Esq and Mrs Chapman :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":2i7oevuo said:


> Paul - I think your Christmas card this year will be addressed to Paul Chapman Esq and Mrs Chapman :lol: - Rob



That's good - last year I had to explain to her who "SWMBO" was :lol:


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## davegw (28 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":32hac6cb said:


> I make the attempt to use the Queen's english as well I can,



That'll be German then? :wink: :wink: :wink: 

Seriously though, there have been lots of really good books written about the origin of language

*This one by Bill Bryson is my favouri*

Dave


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## lurker (28 Jul 2008)

DaveGW - you have nicked my best joke!

I used to live in the far north of Scotland and bloody Charlie came up every August. We were in the main street one Saturday morning (blocked off by the A$re lick police) when he visited the town hall. A local on the other side of the road yelled " pipper off home you english tw*T" and I shouted back to the local "you mean pipper off home you German Tw*t!" Even the coppers were laughing!! I never bought a drink in the boozer for a month afterwards.

I read a description in the paper yesterday ( Jezza Clarkson), that said that when she came to the throne HMQ sounded as though she was trying to hold a peeled grape between her buttocks but now just sounds like an old headmistress. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Anonymous (28 Jul 2008)

MDF_HAKA":kf057ut7 said:


> Smudger":kf057ut7 said:
> 
> 
> > Stylistic choice. Honest. I'd put a red ring round it, but expect an argument!
> ...



Sadly, it is true that some use it and some don't. My preference has always been to use it as when one speaks the sentence out loud, there is a short pause before the "and".


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## Anonymous (28 Jul 2008)

Paul Chapman":2agkijl9 said:


> If you want to know about punctuation, it's really worth reading "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" by Lynne Truss - excellent and humorous.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



One of my favourite books :lol: :lol: Such a funny read.


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## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

> The village of Eglwysbach (little church) is near Conwy, definitely in North Wales!



Definitely refugees from down south Dan. :lol: 

A practice I was given years ago was to punctuate this,

i said and not but

Roy.


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## RogerS (28 Jul 2008)

dennis":14ikgcdx said:


> .......
> Also as I have said before this is a WOODWORKING FORUM and I wonder if the majority of members would prefer to see a post that is perfectly scripted explaining a project that is as rough as [email protected]@oles or one that is poorly scripted explaining one that is brilliantly executed.I know which one that I would go for every time.
> 
> Dennis



But surely it's better to have a well-written, easy to read explanation of a brilliantly executed project? If so then doesn't that mean good spelling and grammar?

I can appreciate that not everyone came out of our educational establishment with perfect grammar. But spelling can be fixed by a spelling checker if one's not sure or confident. 

But at the end of the day, isn't it a bit insulting to your audience to throw together a load of words etc ? And especially if you do have a good command of English then surely it's just laziness?


----------



## RogerS (28 Jul 2008)

Tusses":1sslmj22 said:


> .......
> 
> As long as the context is there , one can usually (intelligently and logically ) work out what the intended meaning is.
> 
> .....



But if the author actually knows the difference but can't be pineappled to correct the sentence or write things down correctly in the first place then who gives them the right to waste my time in trying to figure out what they mean?


----------



## Bodrighy (28 Jul 2008)

mailee":3fqb2fmu said:


> Unfortunitely most of our bad English comes from the USA. I agree that correct grammar does not seem to be taught anymore. I just ignore it all now as it is so commonplace. :?



Strangely enough much of the american 'slang' and the apparent bad grammar is in fact english but from a couple of centuries ago. We have adapted more than the americans and have very few truly british words left. Most of our Anglo Saxon words are now swear words, many of our words are in fact greek, latin,french, spanish, hindu,chinese, swahili.......so how does one actually define bad grammar or bad spelling? (Should the above all begin with upper or lower case?)

Pete


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## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

RogerS":13wevyag said:


> Tusses":13wevyag said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...



I guess it depends how intelligent and logical the reader is  

and as for a waste of time - it depends on how important the subject matter is to the reader - 'it's not compulsory you know' to read anything here. 

Besides - , I think it was Dan Tovey (?)had to work out what one of Smudgers 'correct' words meant, by the context of his post - a 'dumbed down' word could have saved him some time. Which shall it be ?


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## BradNaylor (28 Jul 2008)

RogerS":6j6i9uun said:


> dennis":6j6i9uun said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...



Well said, that man!





Roger S":6j6i9uun said:


> But if the author actually knows the difference but *can't be pineappled* to correct the sentence or write things down correctly in the first place then who gives them the right to waste my time in trying to figure out what they mean?



Well said, that man again!


----------



## BradNaylor (28 Jul 2008)

Tusses":1tr4rov3 said:


> and as for a waste of time - it depends on how important the subject matter is to the reader - 'it's not compulsory you know' to read anything here.
> 
> Besides - , I think it was Dan Tovey (?)had to work out what one of Smudgers 'correct' words meant, by the context of his post - a 'dumbed down' word could have saved him some time. Which shall it be ?


 
If you had read my post properly you would have known that I actually welcomed Dick's use of a word whose meaning I had to think about. 

Intelligent and thinking people are always pleased to learn something new. 

Those who consider that they don't have anything to learn are generally conceited, pompous, or as thick as pigshit. 

Cheers 
Dan


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

Tusses":c18j6fjo said:


> RogerS":c18j6fjo said:
> 
> 
> > Tusses":c18j6fjo said:
> ...



It all depends on how importance accuracy is to you. What I detect here is a HUGE dose of reverse snobbery.


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## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

Back to the abbreviations!

"Those who consider that they don't have anything to learn are generally conceited, pompous, or as thick as pigshit. "

TAPS.


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## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

Well..this takes the biscuit now...so if someone is not as intelligent as you, it means they are either conceited, pompous or as thick as pigshit,,well that's a new one!!!!

I would call someone who has got to go out of their way to impress on other people how well they can speak or spell pompous or conceited..

Also does it mean the someone who is not intelligent and thinking is not willing to learn???

Hell,,i could never be a brain surgeon,,i am not clever enough to get anywhere near the qualifications which are needed,,,,,,so tell me,,does that make me conceited, pompous or thick as pigshit???

ok.i'm a classical flutist,,so if someone cannot play the flute or read music, does that make them conceited,pompous or thick as pigshit???

Maybe we should have someone like Pol Pot come to power,,remember what he done in Cambodia??? Anyone who was thought to be educated or even wore glasses were either killed or sent to the killing fields!!!,
or how about the reverse, if anyone is not so well educated or finds it difficult to spell,, was killed or sent to a killing fields type place??? would that please you???


----------



## Jake (28 Jul 2008)

Mark68":7zbftyzn said:


> Well..this takes the biscuit now...so if someone is not as intelligent as you, it means they are either conceited, pompous or as thick as pigshit,,well that's a new one!!!!



No-one said that.


----------



## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

I've stayed mostly clear of this since it started to become heated, but as I see the various views we have one side claiming that it is laziness that provides the errors and tother saying it's a lack of knowledge or are stating it's a lack of importance and of no consequence.
So Mark68, are you aware of the errors in your post, which I agree is completely intelligible, or are you not, and if you are which group do you fall into?
This is not an attempt to be rude or sarcastic I assure you, rather an attempt to understand the difficulties.

Roy.


----------



## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

Jake":17mqguju said:


> Mark68":17mqguju said:
> 
> 
> > Well..this takes the biscuit now...so if someone is not as intelligent as you, it means they are either conceited, pompous or as thick as pigshit,,well that's a new one!!!!
> ...





""Intelligent and thinking people are always pleased to learn something new. 

Those who consider that they don't have anything to learn are generally conceited, pompous, or as thick as pigshit. 

Cheers 
Dan""


My views on this are,,why do people come onto a forum and boast how well they can spell,write,use the correct grammar, etc. Have they got nothing better in their life to do than to pick on people who are less well educated than them??

Maybe we should start boasting who can pee up the wall the highest??

By the way Digit..you have spelling mistakes in your last post... :wink: lol..


----------



## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

Dan Tovey":3feril79 said:


> Tusses":3feril79 said:
> 
> 
> > and as for a waste of time - it depends on how important the subject matter is to the reader - 'it's not compulsory you know' to read anything here.
> ...



Dan 

I did indeed read your post correctly, and understand that you didn't mind taking the time to learn something new..

My point was - a correct word, caused someone to have to think about the meaning, just as in incorrect word would - whether the reader is bother by either or not !

Your post also confirmed that some readers of this forum might find it _easier_ if 'correct' words were in fact appropriate for the readers too  - regardless of whether you enjoyed learning or not.

the original point was ' who has the right to waste my time and make me have to think about it' I was pointing out it works both ways


----------



## Argee (28 Jul 2008)

Mark68":vh045wa4 said:


> Maybe we should start boasting who can pee up the wall the highest??


Marvellous retort, very well thought out.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't have replied.
Regretfully, this post is now becoming too polarised.
Once this stage has been reached, progress is almost impossible.
Naturally, I'm going to bow out now.

Ray.


----------



## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

Smudger":1yet1bbt said:


> Tusses":1yet1bbt said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":1yet1bbt said:
> ...



as I stated way back when ... I dont really give a stuff about poor english. It really isn't important to me if someone is well educated in english or not.

I am however enjoying this thread and playing Devils advocate and reverse snobery will be used in an equal amount to forward snobberry 

it is good that you can at least recocnise the 'reverse' part of it tho !


----------



## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

No mistakes that either I or my spelling checker are aware of Mark, but you see I make no claim, nor have I made any claim to perfection for myself, that is why I use a spell checker.
The reason I asked the question I raised is that you have clearly made an attempt at correct punctuation, I therefore assumed that you consider punctuation to be important, if that is so I would point out that punctuation is not an arcane science but is guided by a set of rules. Which, I once again assume, you have not been made aware of.
My point is that the rules are very simple and easily followed, so if you do attach some importance to correct punctuation I can assure that the rules are easily learnt.
I would also repeat that your posts are completely intelligible anyway.

Roy.


----------



## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

Digit":29q3yiqz said:


> I've stayed mostly clear of this since it started to become heated, but as I see the various views we have one side claiming that it is laziness that provides the errors and tother saying it's a lack of knowledge or are stating it's a lack of importance and of no consequence.
> So Mark68, are you aware of the errors in your post, which I agree is completely intelligible, or are you not, and if you are which group do you fall into?
> This is not an attempt to be rude or sarcastic I assure you, rather an attempt to understand the difficulties.
> 
> Roy.



It's not THAT heated Digit 

hotting up a bit tho, I must admit. As far as I know, noone has fallen out with anyone or has a hissy fit 'yet' 


just to add to your post and not aimed at you 

- there IS a time and place where good english and good grammar/spelling is important. But equally so, there are times and places where it really DOESN'T matter !

Imagine a plum in mouth snooty fellow walking into a rough as nails bikers pub :lol: 

a woodworking forum maybe somewhere in between !


----------



## Tusses (28 Jul 2008)

Argee":elfjgbxm said:


> Mark68":elfjgbxm said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe we should start boasting who can pee up the wall the highest??
> ...



keep reading Argee - you never know LOL !

but I know what you mean.

I'm still enjoying it anyway  - it's got me thinking of loads of controversial 'off topic' threads I can start next


----------



## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

> where it really DOESN'T matter !



Absolutely! My point was that Mark seemed to be trying to punctuate correctly, if that was so then I was simply pointing out that there are rules for guidance.
In fact, in support of you comment Tuss I offer this, in Oxford English it would be ridiculous!

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrel ... /1146.html

Roy.


----------



## Karl (28 Jul 2008)

Tusses":2if78n9y said:


> it's got me thinking of loads of controversial 'off topic' threads I can start next



:lol: 

You'll have a good record to beat - 13 pages and counting.....

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Anonymous (28 Jul 2008)

Tony":6huc45lv said:


> MDF_HAKA":6huc45lv said:
> 
> 
> > Smudger":6huc45lv said:
> ...



Having read it several times now (your post) I can 'see' the pause and I agree it makes more sense.


----------



## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

Yes, your right, punctuation is no arcane science, and yes if i write a letter or post here i will try to use the correct punctuation and spelling, it may not be right sometimes, but i try, but the last thing i would do is knock someone for how they spell or use punctuation, nor would i come on here boasting about how well i can spell,use punctuation etc.


----------



## Anonymous (28 Jul 2008)

RogerS":gvcuf8p3 said:


> dennis":gvcuf8p3 said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...



I would say 'reasonable' as in 'at least make an attempt to get it right' where you said 'good'.


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

Mark68":1hp7upkp said:


> Yes, your right, punctuation is no arcane science, and yes if i write a letter or post here i will try to use the correct punctuation and spelling, it may not be right sometimes, but i try, but the last thing i would do is knock someone for how they spell or use punctuation, nor would i come on here boasting about how well i can spell,use punctuation etc.



So, who has done that?


----------



## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

Thanks Dick, saved me the trouble! 8) 

Roy.


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

Did you notice the classy use of the comma? I was dead proud of that.


----------



## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

Snob! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## Rich (28 Jul 2008)

I can see that there has not been much woodwork done today. :lol: 

Rich.


----------



## dennis (28 Jul 2008)

I would like to thank Dan for transporting me back to my junior school days, when as largely uneducated young boys with extremely limited vocabulary, "thick as pigshit"was our favourite phrase when we wanted to get at someone. If the headmaster heard you he would say, "that is the language of an uneducated buffoon, so what does that make you boy" and you had to say "an uneducated buffoon sir" If he was still alive today I would be delighted to be able to tell him that it was no longer looked on in that way and is in fact part of the vast vocabulary of highly intelligent adults. I am in fact thinking of adding it back into my still limited vocabulary.

Dennis


----------



## boomer (28 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":1gzg9ify said:


> It's not the grammar that winds me up so much but the spelling. I'm not perfick in any way (I always use the spell checker) when it comes to trying to get things right, but I do make the attempt, not withstanding the occasional typo that gets past the checker ('fiends' instead of 'friends' was my latest gaff :lol: ) One that irritates me beyond belief ](*,) is something we had recently...draw instead of draw_*er*_ - Rob...in Meldrew mode.



You may not be perfick,as you spell it and i'm not perfect as i spell it,but to bring up my mistake of draw instead of drawer after so long is so sad,you really need to get out more.


----------



## dennis (28 Jul 2008)

Hi Boomer

I thought that it was only Gower that got singled out for the draw/drawer treatment didnt realise that you had as well, it is incidents like that, that that have caused a lot of the debate on this thread. There is a word that is often used today that they need to learn, only a small word but taken in the context that is most often meant now, it says a lot. CHILL.

Dennis


----------



## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

Oh, come on fella's, read back through the posts.

There's one just been written just above this, all about the word drawer.


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

Rich":p5fvtvkr said:


> I can see that there has not been much woodwork done today. :lol:
> 
> Rich.



True, true.

But I thought about it...


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

dennis":1szf448h said:


> I would like to thank Dan for transporting me back to my junior school days, when as largely uneducated young boys with extremely limited vocabulary, "thick as pigshit"was our favourite phrase when we wanted to get at someone. If the headmaster heard you he would say, "that is the language of an uneducated buffoon, so what does that make you boy" and you had to say "an uneducated buffoon sir" If he was still alive today I would be delighted to be able to tell him that it was no longer looked on in that way and is in fact part of the vast vocabulary of highly intelligent adults. I am in fact thinking of adding it back into my still limited vocabulary.
> 
> Dennis



It's a well established educational term.


----------



## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

Anyone care for a little wager on how many pages this topic will go on for..


----------



## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

I'll hold the stakes! :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

Shall we start on split infinitives?


----------



## RogerS (28 Jul 2008)

Smudger":23mge0f7 said:


> Shall we start on split infinitives?


I'll boldly go first


----------



## Smudger (28 Jul 2008)

It's life, Jim...


----------



## Mark68 (28 Jul 2008)

Is that, to boldly go where no man has gone before.


----------



## mr (28 Jul 2008)

Digit":196nhnaf said:


> Whilst sympathising with all of the above and deploring the low standards of modern usage, (try some of the DSS papers!) English is an evolving language.
> Most of us would have difficulty with works by Darwin which is quite recent, but you might like to try your hand at this and see if you can identify a title.
> 
> *ICH wes in one sumere dale
> ...




Loosely and with scant regard for the poetry;

I was in the dale in spring
in one quet corner 
where I heard a great argument 
between an owl and a nightingale.
Sometimes soft and other times loud 
but each was strong and fierce and proud. 
And each overbore the other and let out all the ire they held.
Each saying the the worst about the other
and each holding strong about the others song.
The Nightingale began to speak
... 
The sentence continues. 

A bit rusty but I have read more than my fair share of Mediaeval Eng lit. 

Cheers Mike


----------



## Digit (28 Jul 2008)

Thanks for that Mike, it fills in the gaps.

Roy.


----------



## Tom K (29 Jul 2008)

lurker":1dhoiuru said:


> Am I the only one who is irritated by the misuse of "myself" & "yourself", when people mean me or you.
> 
> There is a prevalence of how people usually those who speak to customers saying "yourself" because they seem to think that "you" is somehow too assertive.
> 
> Drives me mad!!! :twisted: :twisted:



Having read through the entire thread I can't quite see the OP's problem.
A sales person enquires "Is it for yourself?" why do you believe it to be incorrect?

Regards Tom


----------



## BradNaylor (29 Jul 2008)

dennis":2ytq9ixp said:


> I would like to thank Dan for transporting me back to my junior school days, when as largely uneducated young boys with extremely limited vocabulary, "thick as pigshit"was our favourite phrase when we wanted to get at someone. If the headmaster heard you he would say, "that is the language of an uneducated buffoon, so what does that make you boy" and you had to say "an uneducated buffoon sir" If he was still alive today I would be delighted to be able to tell him that it was no longer looked on in that way and is in fact part of the vast vocabulary of highly intelligent adults. I am in fact thinking of adding it back into my still limited vocabulary.
> 
> Dennis


 
Your headmaster was wrong, with a typically snobbish attitude to the English language. Admittedly though, as a headmaster he had a responsibility to control the use of profanities by his charges. 

English is a multi-layered and very subtle language. It has a vocabulary far larger than most, with many different ways of expressing the same thing, depending on the abilities of the writer, the nature of the audience, and the impact that the writer is trying to make. 

Very often maximum impact can be made by the use of a profanity. This is not 'bad' English; far from it! Some of the greatest writers in our history have used the most outrageous swear-words in the right context and to splendid purpose.

While not comparing myself with a great writer, I would suggest that my use of the expression 'as thick as pigshit' was perfectly appropriate in the context in which it was used. It certainly seems to have made the impact intended! I was also trying to introduce a certain comedic quality.

As Dick says, it is a term much used by educationalists.

It reminds me of another one. My wife is a senior psychiatric nurse. It is far from unusual in a case meeting for the consultant psychiatrist to give his professional diagnosis of a patient in the following terms;

'Fookin' barkin'!'

Cheers
Dan


----------



## dennis (29 Jul 2008)

The longer this thread goes on the more apparant it becomes that very few people know what is or is not correct,so unless you have a complete understanding of the subject I would suggest that you do not pass judgement on those that at least have the integrity to admit that they do not.

Dennis


----------



## BradNaylor (29 Jul 2008)

Smudger":3v1rp1w0 said:


> Shall we start on split infinitives?



To blithely split an infinitive must rank as one of the most heinous grammatical crimes possible!


Dan


----------



## RogerS (29 Jul 2008)

Tusses":1qkutsde said:


> RogerS":1qkutsde said:
> 
> 
> > Tusses":1qkutsde said:
> ...



So if I understand your reply correctly..

a) you do know how to spell properly and use appropriate/reasonable grammar

b) but sometimes you can't be bothered

c) which may make your posts less intelligible and that

d) you find it perfectly acceptable to waste anyones' time in trying to parse whatever ears of corn there might (I stress the word 'might') be among the chaff. It's all very well saying that 'you don't have to read it' but to get to that point and realise that it probably wasn't worth the time and effort interpreting your prose in the first place _still_ takes (wasted) time and effort.

A simple 'Yes' will suffice.


----------



## kityuser (29 Jul 2008)

I feel a little bit self conscious after reading all of this now! 

Steve


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

RogerS":1jxkygij said:


> Tusses":1jxkygij said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":1jxkygij said:
> ...



No


----------



## davegw (29 Jul 2008)

Is it at least fair to say that everyone is trying their best, and that sometimes that might not be very good, normally because they are: 

a) Lacking some knowledge; 

b) In a hurry; 

c) Not using their native language; or, 

d) Winding some members of the forum up on purpose? 

:?


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

davegw":3tgoh6nd said:


> Is it at least fair to say that everyone is trying their best, and that sometimes that might not be very good, normally because they are:
> 
> a) Lacking some knowledge;
> 
> ...



I think this is probably closer to the truth . (he says clicking away at the spell checker ! )

b) is my main one, in that I openly admit my spelling is terrible ! and as long as my post makes sense, I usually dont get too anal about correcting it.

I doubt d) is a common reason except for in a polarized off topic thread like this one maybe 

a) is a much better way of putting it than poorly educated 

I have a reasonably good education and a well above average IQ (even I was surprised LOL ). I cant spell tho and never had any interest in english language or literature. I excelled in the arts and sciences . Give me a text book over novel any day ! - peoples brains work differently

just as different things are important to different people. Nothing as queer as folk


----------



## Smudger (29 Jul 2008)

If I might indulge what the French call a 'deformation professionelle' you don't have a problem so much with spelling as with punctuation.


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

Yes and no - and I could turn that round back at ya  There is a very broad group of people who dont put english up at the top of there priorities. Maybe you havent mixed with these people yet ?

I have my own view points based on my experiences , not necessarily professional, but life interests.

as for spelling or punctuation _ 'I' _ dont have a problem with either.

and as I said earier - this is a forum - and as such I dont consider it to be one of those times when perfect punctuation is as important as readability.

I know you can argue that punctuation aids readability - but so do forum smilies and the like


anyway - I'm off to make some sawdust for a bit, and take some photo's of my mortiser for the nooB with no instructions for his 

L8R dudez 8)


----------



## Paul Chapman (29 Jul 2008)

I don't know whether any of you watched the programme on Channel 4 yesterday, "Can't Read, Can't Write", where a chap called Phil Beadle took on the challenge of teaching a group of adults to read and write.

I thought it was a fascinating programme. Two things struck me in particular. First was how devastating it was for the people concerned that they couldn't read and write - it affected almost every aspect of their lives, in particular because it resulted in them having little self-confidence. Second was the sheer joy at the ability effectively to express themselves once they had mastered a basic ability to read and write. It was as if years of pent up frustration had been suddenly released.

I'm sorry I missed the first programme - must make a note to watch next week's........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Mark68 (29 Jul 2008)

kityuser":1ghdx9vp said:


> I feel a little bit self conscious after reading all of this now!
> 
> Steve



If i am taking this in the correct context, exactly, how many people will be put off of posting because they feel, the more learned will be more interested in how well they spell,punctuate and the choice of words they use, than the actual post itself.


----------



## RogerS (29 Jul 2008)

Mark68":85v1fye0 said:


> kityuser":85v1fye0 said:
> 
> 
> > I feel a little bit self conscious after reading all of this now!
> ...



No-one has ever said this as far as I can see. 

No-one is condemning anyone if they can't spell correctly or have difficulty with grammar. If anyone thinks, after reading these posts, that they are being 'got at' then a better case of cognitive dissonance I've yet to see.


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

Mark68":318n4ln8 said:


> kityuser":318n4ln8 said:
> 
> 
> > I feel a little bit self conscious after reading all of this now!
> ...



I should imagine quite a few ! which is why I have taken the time to 'debate' the point 

I know my strengths and weaknesses - my weaknesses dont cause me to be self concious (they used to)

To anyone reading this thread - dont worry about it ! look at the number of posts - reads and then the number of members who are actually snooty about it. (sorry - but I find the word appropriate and it's not aimed at any one person) against the total number of members.

Not got time now - but I'll post the figures later if anyone wants


----------



## RogerS (29 Jul 2008)

Tusses":228vzf0z said:


> Mark68":228vzf0z said:
> 
> 
> > kityuser":228vzf0z said:
> ...



Jeez ...now those who stand up for and appreciate the use of good English are somehow 'snooty'.

I give up. I'm ducking out of this thread. Now where's the Stop Watching button?


----------



## Mark68 (29 Jul 2008)

Roger..go back and read the first half a dozen or so posts on the topic..


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

ok - waiting for some glue to dry so ....

is snooty not the 'correct' and 'appropriate' word for comments like this



> Instead, I luxuriate in the pompous thought that I'm better educated than the poor old soul who's at fault.



there are others.

the point is being made that some that dont post perfect english might feel a little intimidated after such comments !

not aimed at anyone !!!!

oh - and I found your rattle if you want it back


----------



## mr (29 Jul 2008)

Tusses":jwg4o1vf said:


> is snooty not the 'correct' and 'appropriate' word for comments like this
> 
> 
> 
> > Instead, I luxuriate in the pompous thought that I'm better educated than the poor old soul who's at fault.



No it isn't appropriate or correct, rather an illustration of your reading of Gill's intent in that statement which in my opinion is incorrect, so no, not correct or appropriate at all. 

For my own part I have no issue with people who can't spell or whose grammar is poor. There are spell checkers and so on available to help them. It's the lack of effort to express ones self that we sometimes see that annoys me. If I can't understand something instantly I tend to move on if I get the impression that the writer hasn't tried to express himself or herself clearly. If I come across text speak I won't bother even trying to decipher it

Cheers Mike


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

Snooty - overly conceited

whether it was intended or not, to those that post here, knowing that they are thought of like this might make them a bit self conscious ? no ?

after all - there is 'polite' reply and there is reading between the lines of that reply. As for whether or not 'snooty' is true in this case or others - it's wide open to be perceived that way !

We are talking about peoples perception of one and other are we not ?

I am sure , well I hope !, that the 'possibly' snooty posts here weren't intended to be so . That wouldn't be very nice now would it . But text is a funny thing, perception of a post will vary considerably from person to person.

Dont just think how it was intended - think of all the ways it could be perceived !


----------



## Bodrighy (29 Jul 2008)

If I was on a forum for the promotion of better use of the language I would expect a good standard of spelling, grammar etc but as this is for woodworkers I personally really don't mind the bad spelling, grammar, and sometimes almost incomprehensible technical terminology that is used. I recognise that nearly everybody is far more skilled than I am at the craft and appreciate all the help that I receive here. Having spent a fair bit of time working with people with learning difficulties perhaps I am less pone to being upset by it but at the end of the day I just can't get that bothered by it.

I have pretty high qualifications in both English language and Literature but can't type for love nor money as can often be seen. As long as I can communicate my meaning that is what I consider important. Life is too short to get irritated by these things.

Pete


----------



## woodbloke (29 Jul 2008)

Tusses":gk0p6a32 said:


> But text is a funny thing, perception of a post will vary considerably from person to person.
> 
> Dont just think how it was intended - think of all the ways it could be perceived !



...which for me, at least, is the reason _why_ posts need to be as accurate as possible so that the poster's initial meaning is not perceived as different from the intended one, meaning that grammar _ought_ to be correct as well as spelling. Sometimes it's quite tricky to try and convey information exactly as intended, especially if the topic under discussion is a complicated one...not that we have many of those here :wink: - Rob


----------



## davegw (29 Jul 2008)

Personally speaking I wouldn't be likely to be put off from posting because of Bad Spelling or grammar, although I have noticed I am taking much more care about it (not a bad thing) 

What would put me off is, in my opinion: wilful misunderstanding by protagantists on both sides of the argument; mis & out of context quotations; and, the use of language I believe inappropriate (and before someone shouts that we are all adults here - I don't remember seeing the "over 18's only" sign on the way in). 

I don't believe anyone in this thread or any other has ever been (purposefully) put down by anyone else for there use of grammar or spelling. Mistakes have been pointed out, and it could be argued that when this is done it should be via a private message not in the public forum. 

I also believe there is a generational gap, probably exacerbated by the liberal education chiefs, that means that emphasis on getting the "message" across has become more important than getting it right. That surely is the crux of the matter? 

Everyone (and I mean everyone) here has argued that the message is the most important thing, Someones ability to craft their message in an appropriate fashion depends on their Knowledge, Education, Time Available, and Interest. 

I suggest that some of us have more time than others, and certainly more interest in the written word. 

As a tool for communication this is a very poor medium. High Context, High Quality communication relies on Face to Face contact, so that intonation, body language, facial expressions, etc can be taken into account (I read somewhere that this is about 90% of human communication). Low context communication such as swapping messages in a forum are improved when we try to add context (such as smilies) and denigrated when we remove information (such as using text speak). 

I like it here, enjoy the debate and am interested in everyones opinions, please please please don't anyone hold back from posting because of anything they have read in this thread.


----------



## Digit (29 Jul 2008)

> It's the lack of effort to express ones self that we sometimes see that annoys me.



My view also, or in another context, making something in wood, as a hobby, that's 'near enough', not the best that you can do.
If it's worth doing. it's worth doing well.
To me it's a matter of pride that no matter how bad the finished result, it's the best that I am capable of, and perhaps I'll do better next time around.


Roy.


----------



## Smudger (29 Jul 2008)

Mark68":2h49dbcw said:


> kityuser":2h49dbcw said:
> 
> 
> > I feel a little bit self conscious after reading all of this now!
> ...



None.
I'm not put off from posting because I make rubbish dovetails.


----------



## Smudger (29 Jul 2008)

Seen in Sainsburys (sic) today:

'Air Freshner'



Sigh...


----------



## davegw (29 Jul 2008)

Digit":205pjn3b said:


> > It's the lack of effort to express ones self that we sometimes see that annoys me.



Before I say what I am going to say I should nail my colours to the mast. I believe that everyone whould use the best english they are capable of. That said...

...we have to be careful when accusing someone of lack of effort, extending the woodworking analogy a little further. I could spend hours creating dovetails to join two pieces of wood together and at the end of it end up with something that could at best be described as mediocre, somebody else could do a much better job in a 10th of the time, and still not have really made an effort. Lack of ability is often masked by percieved lack of effort. 

A fact I tried to explain to my school football teacher until I was blue in the face!


----------



## woodbloke (29 Jul 2008)

Digit wrote:


> My view also, or in another context, making something in wood, as a hobby, that's 'near enough', not the best that you can do.
> If it's worth doing. it's worth doing well.
> To me it's a matter of pride that no matter how bad the finished result, it's the best that I am capable of, and perhaps I'll do better next time around.
> 
> ...


Agree with Roy here, that something you make has to be the best that you, as an individual, can make it. One way of doing better next time is for others to offer an honest opinion on the piece which is why I sometimes offer a critique on jobs seen on the Projects Forum. By being aware of things that could be improved (in my view) the originator can hopefully be aware of my suggestions and possibly incorporate them into the next piece.
I'll be posting some pics of a finished project at the weekend and hope that you'll be able to offer useful guidance on what you like or don't like as the case may be. In my view this is one way that we can improve the quality of practical work - Rob


----------



## Digit (29 Jul 2008)

How true folks, how I envied one student during my college days, he spent most of his time in the pub with girls whilst I sweated over papers, and the turnip still got better results than me!

Roy.


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

Well it seems we are getting back to a more healthy discussion 

Good !


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

davegw":67mz7bdh said:


> Personally speaking I wouldn't be likely to be put off from posting because of Bad Spelling or grammar, although I have noticed I am taking much more care about it (not a bad thing)
> 
> What would put me off is, in my opinion: wilful misunderstanding by protagantists on both sides of the argument; mis & out of context quotations; and, the use of language I believe inappropriate (and before someone shouts that we are all adults here - I don't remember seeing the "over 18's only" sign on the way in).
> 
> ...



Very well put IMHO


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

Digit":18eojzgc said:


> > It's the lack of effort to express ones self that we sometimes see that annoys me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Roy , if I may add ...

on the woodworking analogy.

What if a piece just needs function, not beauty ?

Sure, you could taper a piece of best burly maple, inlay it with the finest exotic hardwoods and marquetry . Spend a week french polishing it ...



..




...



....
when in fact all you need is a wedge to keep the door open !

same with language


----------



## Mark68 (29 Jul 2008)

I think someone has hit one of the nails on the head in a previous post, the generation gap!!
I have heard it quite a bit,,maybe not on here, where the older generation always seem to think that the younger generation are never as good as them. I expect this has happened all down through time as well, but i think this might play a very big part in what is being discussed here..

I go back to something i said in a earlier post. Many years ago, i worked with a old bloke, now he use to go around asking people to spell chrysandthemun and ukulele, really important words!! but when people could not spell them, he would launch into how all young people were thick and stupid, not like him who could spell and everything, how he never got punched out i never know, mind you they did try to blow him up a few times.but thats a different story.


----------



## Smudger (29 Jul 2008)

Nope. Not the same.

You needed technique to make the wedge no matter what you made it from. That's what we are talking about with language.


----------



## woodbloke (29 Jul 2008)

Tusses":1a02ippj said:


> Digit":1a02ippj said:
> 
> 
> > > It's the lack of effort to express ones self that we sometimes see that annoys me.
> ...



like these ones here Not inlaid or French polished, granted, but then it's made by Li.... :roll: :wink: - Rob


----------



## Digit (29 Jul 2008)

Even a door wedge can be poorly made if insufficient effort is put into it.
I play a number of musical instruments, poorly, but even with nobody else to hear them I am still attempting to get better, that was my point.

Roy.


----------



## Tusses (29 Jul 2008)

very good rob - 

and Roy

I wasn't picking at your post - I agree with one side of it.

Call it a workshop door stop then ! The point I was trying to make was , sometime 'just enough' will do 

I did make some door stops once. scroll sawed them in the shape of a rodent , with the tail as the wedge. I call them 'Door Mice' 

But I hope you know what I mean about 'just enough'


----------



## Digit (29 Jul 2008)

> I call them 'Door Mice'



Great!

Roy.


----------



## Travis (29 Jul 2008)

Is langauge import?

I read the heading of this thread (*Poor english*) and thought some one was getting ready to take up a collection. :shock: BOY O BOY, was I wrong.

Travis


----------



## Digit (29 Jul 2008)

Well, being a colonial, we'll forgive you! :lol: 
I hear that LA just got a nasty shock, what's the latest on that?

Roy.


----------



## Rich (3 Aug 2008)

Does anyone know where I can purchase some "no tablets" from? apparently they work better than Anadin? :shock:  

Rich.


----------



## Digit (4 Aug 2008)

No idea, but I do know where you can get a disinfectant that kills 99 percent of all known germs. And leaves all the unknown ones to thrive!

Roy.


----------



## Smudger (4 Aug 2008)

Have you seen the TV ad where the woman talks about 'a bacteria'?

Drives me up the wall!


Though having written that and re-read it I might have to concede that I have a very dodgy sense of proportion over some things...


----------



## Rich (4 Aug 2008)

Probably the same manufacturer of toothpaste who state that it MAY help against tooth decay, might as well use cow dung, that also MAY help against tooth decay, :lol: :lol:

Rich.


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## BradNaylor (4 Aug 2008)

Smudger":3qjrdwb4 said:


> Have you seen the TV ad where the woman talks about 'a bacteria'?
> 
> Drives me up the wall!
> 
> ...



Not at all, Dick - these things are important!

I frequently hear people refer to 'a phenomina' . :shock:

On a similar note, what is the plural of 'forum'? 

'Fora'?

Cheers
Dan


----------



## davegw (4 Aug 2008)

My 2 most annoying ads at the moment:

Fabric softener that smells of Diamonds and Lotus Flower? Really? What does a diamond smell like?

and

1 bacteria evil on a kitchen worktop can multiply to 2billion by morning, so you should use a certain household spray that kills 99.9% of all germs dead (what other way would they be killed, :evil. Assuming this is an american billion evil that leaves 20,000,000 bacteria(s :twisted: )


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## Smudger (4 Aug 2008)

Dan Tovey":1t74fvs9 said:


> On a similar note, what is the plural of 'forum'?
> 
> 'Fora'?
> 
> ...



I've seen that discussed before on forums. 'Fora' is often suggested, but just sound silly - which is one of the problems, all language tends towards euphony (things which sound pleasant to a native speaker).


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## Smudger (4 Aug 2008)

davegw":17t4omlc said:


> My 2 most annoying ads at the moment:
> 
> Fabric softener that smells of Diamonds and Lotus Flower? Really? What does a diamond smell like?
> 
> ...



I, like, so agree with you.


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## Argee (4 Aug 2008)

Dan Tovey":36l47lnq said:


> On a similar note, what is the plural of 'forum'?
> 
> 'Fora'?


*Forum* (pl. *forums*) 
1 a meeting or medium for an exchange of views. 
2 chiefly N. Amer. a court or tribunal. 
3 (pl. *fora*) (in ancient Roman cities) a public square or marketplace used for judicial and other business. 

So, unless we're ancient Romans, "forums" is the _appropriate _plural. 

Ray.


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## Digit (4 Aug 2008)

So what about Museum? That one has long puzzled me.

Roy.


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## Smudger (4 Aug 2008)

Forum is Latin, Museum is Greek, but both make plurals in effectively the same way, either in their original or their adopted language.

I knew you weren't paying attention when I told you about Albrow's Polysystemic Model of English Spelling Systems!

Plural would be (in Greek) _Musea_. In English,_ Museums_.


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## Digit (4 Aug 2008)

> I knew you weren't paying attention when I told you about Albrow's Polysystemic Model of English Spelling Systems!


Doh! 

Roy.


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## Woodmagnet (4 Aug 2008)

:lol: :lol: "Stupid boy" :lol: :lol:


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## davegw (5 Aug 2008)

davegw":31dspup4 said:


> My 2 most annoying ads at the moment:
> 
> Fabric softener that smells of Diamonds and Lotus Flower? Really? What does a diamond smell like?



It appears I owe someone an apology! It's not just Diamond, but White Diamond, apparently Different forms of Carbon have different smells!


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## Jake (5 Aug 2008)

They must mean Diamond White - cider - tramps' brew.


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## Tusses (5 Aug 2008)

I have to laugh at the adverts where they make up 'technical' sounding words.

Like the skin wrinkle creams and my fav is Danone yogurts 

Bifidus Regularis / Actiregularis / Digestivum /

its like something out of harry potter LOL


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## lurker (5 Aug 2008)

Tusses,

"They" do it because most of the buying public are thick enough to be impressed.

I despair, that this once great technologically advanced nation is overrun (& run) by scientific illiterates.


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## Digit (5 Aug 2008)

I watched a Richard and Judy programme once  and they visited a company producing make up. They stood in front of a large vat of lipstick compound, and when asked for which brand they were in formed that it was all the same, Woolworths to Paris, same mix different packaging.
Richard, logically pointed out that Judy could save a fortune if she stopped buying the expensive brands.
She refused point blank and seemed to horrified at the suggestion.

Roy.


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## Anonymous (5 Aug 2008)

lurker":u5f3hgj9 said:


> Tusses,
> 
> "They" do it because *most* of the buying public are thick enough to be impressed.
> 
> I despair, that this once great technologically advanced nation is overrun (& run) by scientific illiterates.



Many perhaps, not most.


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## Anonymous (5 Aug 2008)

Digit":1ihbu5sp said:


> Richard, logically pointed out that Judy could save a fortune if she stopped buying the expensive brands.
> She refused point blank and seemed to horrified at the suggestion.
> 
> Roy.



Well Roy, Polyfilla is the best so we can't really blame her too much. :lol:


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## big soft moose (5 Aug 2008)

davegw":2sw3fh1d said:


> 1 bacteria evil on a kitchen worktop can multiply to 2billion by morning, so you should use a certain household spray that kills 99.9% of all germs dead (what other way would they be killed, :evil. Assuming this is an american billion evil that leaves 20,000,000 bacteria(s :twisted: )



1 bacterium - many bacteria
1 pedant ... many pedants 

also i think it means it kills all of 99% of the known sorts of germs so it will probably not leave any unless you are unlucky enough to have germs present that come from the 1% it doesnt kill


The one that really annoys me is where it says it even kills h5N1 - we doh of course it does ... the h5h1 virus can be killed by nearly any kind of disenfectant or soap, or even boiling hot water - but this doesnt do you a lot of good if they cant be taken intravenously 

and dont even get me started on the anti viral tissues


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## RogerS (5 Aug 2008)

lurker":3cp5hoto said:


> Tusses,
> 
> "They" do it because most of the buying public are thick enough to be impressed.
> 
> I despair, that this once great technologically advanced nation is overrun (& run) by scientific illiterates.



Well, looking at the SATS results, still a very large percentage of children not making any sort of grade in English. The stats do go on, to be fair, to identify the fact that a large percentage of these children have either special needs or don't have English as their first language. 

However, the stats do identify that a large percentage of those failing English qualify for free school meals. Can anyone please explain the link?


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## DangerousDave (5 Aug 2008)

davegw":2bcexbeg said:


> davegw":2bcexbeg said:
> 
> 
> > My 2 most annoying ads at the moment:
> ...



Don't get me started on fabric conditioner :evil: . What ever happened to normal conditioner that smells of soap. I now have to go to work smelling of bloody rice flower and ylang ylang (whatever the fk ylang ylang is). As for grammar, the misuse of apostrophe s is the one that always gets my goat


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