# General purpose plane



## cpmczak (27 Dec 2020)

Novice woodworker here, just in the process of building my tool collection. Can anyone recommend a decent all-purpose plane at a reasonable price? Initially, the plane will mainly be used for smoothing table tops after they've been edge-jointed. 

I'm aware Lie-Nielsen are high quality, top end planes with a hefty price tag. I'd like something a little cheaper but still want decent quality. What I don't want to do is buy cheap for the sake of it - I've done it a lot in the past and nearly always regret it. Trying to move away from that mindset. Just want a good quality plane at a reasonable price.

Any advice would be appreciated.


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## --Tom-- (27 Dec 2020)

Vintage Stanley / record can be made to work well, if you have a bit of time to tune. Otherwise the Workshop heaven bedrocks are nice and will work straight away without needing you to try and get something to perform well, without knowing what performing well feels like.


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Dec 2020)

A 5 or 5 1/2 will serve you well Quangsheng Planes
I have these and they hit the price/quality sweetspot for me.


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## thetyreman (27 Dec 2020)

at the moment you won't be able to get hold of lie neilsen because of issues with suppliers, I would start with a no 5 1/2 jack plane, it's my all round favourite plane for most tasks, and the one I use the most, imo LN are definitely worth every penny if you can get hold of one, I have had two tools of theirs and both were flawless out of the box and needed no work at all on either the blades or sole, this was a no85 scraper and a 102 low angle block plane, you're paying for the extra quality control and something that's made in the USA not china, I regret selling both of them but needed the dosh at the time, that's life.


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## Nigel Burden (27 Dec 2020)

I would second a no. 5 or 51/2 as an all round plane. I have a Record no. 051/2, (same as the Stanley 5 1/2), It can get a bit heavy if you're doing a lot of planing but, it will double as a jack or a smoother, (read some of the tips about setting up the cap iron on the forum). I bought mine off ebay about three years ago for £35 ready to go. I was fortunate, and I would imagine that you would be paying a bit more than that now. Make sure that the blade has some life left in it, although you can buy replacement blades no problem, I have seen examples on ebay where the seller is basically selling scrap where the blade is worn down to the slot. 

Look out for cracks in the casting as they're not always easy to see from a photograph, or if the plane is rusty. I picked up a rather rusty Stanely no. 4 at a car boot sale for £2. When I got it home and cleaned it up it was apparent that the casting was cracked on both sides of the mouth. This wasn't a problem because I use it as a scrub plane to remove a lot of wood but not to smooth. In fact the previous owner probably used it for that purpose by the way the blade was cambered. A cracked handle can maybe repaired, or you can make a new one.

I'll just add that I started out like you about three or four years ago, and none of my tools are new or remotely near to high end, being mostly car boot or ebay purchases which with the exception of one or two I've had to sharpen and fettle. I like doing that though.

Nigel.


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## gog64 (27 Dec 2020)

Not sure if you’re asking about decent brands or a type of plane? If “brand” then I’ll second Quangsheng. Chinese made with good QC and decent steel (I have 3). Vintage Stanley or Record are also a good call IMO. My 30 yo Record 4.5 is fine, but needs sharpening more often. If you’re asking about size/type, then a 5.5 jack (i.e. jack of all trades) plane might suit. Lots of info on tinternet about what the different types are suitable for.


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## Blackswanwood (27 Dec 2020)

I would suggest taking a look at Clifton if you are buying new - good quality and made in the UK.


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## CaptainBudget (27 Dec 2020)

A good option I've found is to pick up a vintage plane from Tooltique (Vintage Old Tools - Antique & Used Second Hand Tools UK)

These are vintage Stanley/Record planes that have had all the restoration work done for you. In my experience they flatten the soles and blade backs better than a lot of the "new" planes out the box, and they're about 1/3rd the price...

I would agree with all the above, a Number 5 in any decent brand is the way to go, maybe a 5.1/2 if you're predominantly making big things. Only thing I will say with getting one from Tooltique is stock is an issue and they can't do them fast enough. I got my Stanley no.5 from them by checking the site daily and jumping on it as soon as it was available.


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## pe2dave (28 Dec 2020)

Ebay, a good looking Stanley #4. Strip down, clean and oil (lets you get to know it).
File down the corners, learn to sharpen the blade and away you go with a tool you know well. Good for another 50 years.


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## johnnyb (28 Dec 2020)

Ray Isles sells vintage with ground soles. nuff said.


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## Bm101 (28 Dec 2020)

I've got a fettled, set and working Record 5 waiting for me to get round to selling it for a fair price to both. If you are interested PM me. Feel free to check my post history. If you are after a new plane you cant beat the price point of the Quang Shen just make sure you buy it from Workshop Heaven for the quality control.


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## shed9 (28 Dec 2020)

Totally agree with the idea of buying the best you can. This is more relevant when new to a skillset, nothing more miserable than using low quality tools when learning something new.

I would contact Workshop Heaven and Peter Sefton who do the Quangsheng and Wood River planes respectively. 
Rutlands do the Qiangsheng variant on the QS planes which to my mind is a little less refined than the Workshop Heaven ones but then sometime the price reflects this. Also have a look at Dictum in Germany, they have their own versions of the Lie Nielsen / QS / Wood River bedrock planes. They do a half decent starter set in a Systainer for around £370 which includes a smoother, a low angle jack and a rabbet block plane. 
Dieter Schmid Fine Tools are also a good source for decent planes, they do the Juuma range which again is in line with the same type and price range.

Of course the suggestions up there ^ about fettling an old plane are valid but bear in that this is a skeet shoot when buying 2nd hand, admittedly its low risk but it is a risk. It's likely, especially given the current circumstances, that this would be an internet purchase which for a first plane is not the best way forward in my opinion. It's not just a case of buying any particular branded plane and then cleaning it up. The two main contenders in this field, Record and Stanley have their share of lemons in their line ups and I would say that if you are asking for recommendations for a decent plane for decent money at this stage in your progression I would save the potential heartache and go with a known supplier.

Personally if you are looking for an initial general purpose plane I would go for a low angle jack plane and if you can stretch the budget also get a block plane. One word of warning - this is slippery slope and chances are you will be adding more to the collection fairly soon.


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> ....Initially, the plane will mainly be used for smoothing table tops after they've been edge-jointed.
> ....


In that case you want a smoother i.e. No 4.
Smoothing table tops with a plane is not an easy job especially for a novice - so be prepared with back up; Stanley 80 scraper is good.
Belt or ROS sander is good too, believe me!
Just spotted this at £22! Magnusson No. 4 Smoothing Plane 2
I wonder if it's any good. My experience of cheapo stuff (Faithful etc) is that the blades are usually OK but everything else can be problematic


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## Andy Kev. (28 Dec 2020)

I'd recommend the Veritas Low Angle Jack as a first plane. (It was my first plane and is still my chief work horse. Were I to break or lose it, I wouldn't hesitate to replace it instantly.) The reasons are: the quality is tip top and LA planes are structurally simpler than the traditional bailey design and therefore easier for the beginner to get to grips with. You will of course end up with some bailey planes (a No 4 1/2 smoother is a useful thing) but to get you going, I can't think of anything better and more all round useful than an LAJ.


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## Jameshow (28 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> In that case you want a smoother i.e. No 4.
> Smoothing table tops with a plane is not an easy job especially for a novice - so be prepared with back up; Stanley 80 scraper is good.
> Belt or ROS sander is good too, believe me!
> Just spotted this at £22! Magnusson No. 4 Smoothing Plane 2
> I wonder if it's any good. My experience of cheapo stuff (Faithful etc) is that the blades are usually OK but everything else can be problematic


I'll eat my hat if that plane isn't made by soba of India along side faithfull, spear and Jackson , record, Axi rider etc. 

My faithfull 3+4 and S&J 5 are just as nice to use as the bailey 4 and 4 1/2 I have..... 

Not saying the bailey couldn't be better if my sharpening techniques weren't better.

Cheers James


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## Cabinetman (28 Dec 2020)

I agree with Dave and Jacob for a novice a number four is the way to go, A jack plane in my opinion is not a tool for a novice, quite likely to put him off for life. Ian


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## Ollie78 (28 Dec 2020)

I second the ebay/ car boot sale ( if these are ever allowed again ) plan.
I got a record number 5 (ex military 1974) for £15 spent a bit of time cleaning it up and sorting it out, pretty sure it cuts as well as a brand new quiangsheng at a tenth of the price.
Even if you need a replacement blade you could get a new Ray Iles for £25 which will be superb or go mad and get a Hock.
Try to find earlier models of the Stanleys or Record with wooden handles, quality control went down as time went on.
A low angle block plane is my most used plane of all.

Ollie


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## shed9 (28 Dec 2020)

Ollie78 said:


> Try to find earlier models of the Stanleys or Record with wooden handles, quality control went down as time went on.



This is where the issue lies in buying old tools - just how early is early? Taking Stanleys as an example, type 17's are war era (1942-1945) and there is little quality consistency within that period and subjectively since. Plastic handles actually appeared on Stanleys in the late 60's (although more so in the 80's) so finding that sweet spot of viable tool worth the effort narrows further. Type 11's or earlier are likely better candidates but then you need to know what you are looking for and the right questions to ask.

The original request was for a general purpose plane similar to but not as expensive as a Lie Nielsen and buying a used old tool with an intent to restore it is far from that remit. By all means, tread that path later but I'm not sure that time is now. As for types of plane, a low angle jack will suffice as a smoother for tables and still be good for other uses whereas a smoother is less flexible.


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2020)

shed9 said:


> This is where the issue lies in buying old tools - just how early is early? Taking Stanleys as an example, type 17's are war era (1942-1945) and there is little quality consistency within that period and subjectively since. Plastic handles actually appeared on Stanleys in the late 60's (although more so in the 80's) so finding that sweet spot of viable tool worth the effort narrows further. Type 11's or earlier are likely better candidates but then you need to know what you are looking for and the right questions to ask.
> 
> The original request was for a general purpose plane similar to but not as expensive as a Lie Nielsen and buying a used old tool with an intent to restore it is far from that remit. By all means, tread that path later but I'm not sure that time is now. As for types of plane, a low angle jack will suffice as a smoother for tables and still be good for other uses whereas a smoother is less flexible.


It'd be interesting to know what the production figures were, but I guess pre war, metal planes were relatively uncommon compared to woodies. So most available nowadays probably relatively recent with very little pre war. I've had plastic handled ones and they were nicely made and perfectly OK - plastic was the new wonder material, not second quality by any means.
Old planes don't necessarily have to be "restored" - more often just cleaned up a bit, sharpened and adjusted, all good practice.
PS one here with plastic handles, looks well finished with no compromises Stanley Bailey No 4 plane with Plastic handles good length blade in box | eBay
In fact there seem to be dozens there in good condition, prices around £40 and up. Buy 10 of these for the price of one Lie Nielsen!


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## cpmczak (28 Dec 2020)

Hi guys, just checked back in. Thanks for all the replies - more information here than I could ever have wished for, much appreciated.

I am loathe to go down the second hand route simply because I don't know what I should be looking for and I'd need to learn more skills just to get the plane up to a usable standard. Not saying that's something I won't do in the future but I'm keen to crack on with developing my woodworking skills first!

Sounds like a low-angle jack or a smoother is the way to go. I'll have a look through some of the recommendations posted. Thanks again all.


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## Mcdemon (28 Dec 2020)

5, 5 1/2 or 62 for a start. They are not called a Jack for nothing. All the hand tool experts on you tube recommend this way to go, Rob Cosman, Richard McGuire etc. Check out their hand tool buying videos. You will want a Jack plane eventually for flattening boards anyhow and they can double up for smoothing also.


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## pe2dave (29 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> Hi guys, just checked back in. Thanks for all the replies - more information here than I could ever have wished for, much appreciated.
> 
> I am loathe to go down the second hand route simply because I don't know what I should be looking for and I'd need to learn more skills just to get the plane up to a usable standard. Not saying that's something I won't do in the future but I'm keen to crack on with developing my woodworking skills first!



At ebay prices you can afford to get it wrong a couple of times and still not match the posh prices?
Lots of lessons to be learned whilst doing it. 
Fettling a Stanley number 4 is not rocket science, it's quite logical (or watch Paul Sellers video for tips).
You could transform one of them into a scrub plane for any rough work you have!


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2020)

pe2dave said:


> At ebay prices you can afford to get it wrong a couple of times and still not match the posh prices?
> Lots of lessons to be learned whilst doing it.
> Fettling a Stanley number 4 is not rocket science, it's quite logical (or watch Paul Sellers video for tips).
> You could transform one of them into a scrub plane for any rough work you have!


Exactly
And the most outstanding advantage of the ordinary Stanley is ease of sharpening -that's what the design is all about, the whole point.
If you buy one of the fashionable and expensive retro designed heavy numbers you then have to spend as much again on modern sharpening kit.
One double sided oil stone will do all your Stanley blades for life. Add one fine stone and a strop, for ultimate perfection!


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## Cabinetman (29 Dec 2020)

I have been making furniture for donkeys years – definitely a number four. My jack plane is in the back of the cupboard unused. Ian


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## Woody2Shoes (29 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> Exactly
> And the most outstanding advantage of the ordinary Stanley is ease of sharpening -that's what the design is all about, the whole point.
> If you buy one of the fashionable and expensive retro designed heavy numbers you then have to spend as much again on modern sharpening kit.
> One double sided oil stone will do all your Stanley blades for life. Add one fine stone and a strop, for ultimate perfection!


I think you're significantly overstating the difficulty of sharpening a blade. I use inexpensive diamond stones and it takes me the same amount of time to sharpen a 'thin' 1970's Stanley blade for my old no 4 as it does to sharpen a 'thick' blade for my Wood River/QS planes.


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## shed9 (29 Dec 2020)

Not quite sure why people are so keen to keep on banging the ‘old tools are better than new’ drum to the frequent request for new tools for new users? I get it if people are looking to fix up old tools but when they specifically ask for ready to use tooling then surely the focus is the end use.

New tools and good ones at that have a very legitimate place in the woodworking sector, both at the professional and hobbyist level. The availability of well-made functional tools should be embraced and thoroughly encouraged. Watch and understand the full manufacturing and quality control process for a Lie Nielsen, a Clifton or a Veritas bench plane and then see if the argument of ‘posh priced tools’ still holds water.
Do food forums advise forum members to buy old Kenwood chef’s and rewire the motor themselves as opposed to a new ready to use Kitchen Aid? Perhaps they do?

Old tools have their place but they don’t consistently compare to finished tooling at the initial stage of acquiring tools. Some people just want the tool to work without having to finish the tool itself. Whilst I also appreciate the often touted argument that you can plane wood with pretty much anything with a sharp edge, woodworking is not always a means to an end, it’s often the woodworking itself which is the point.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2020)

shed9 said:


> Not quite sure why people are so keen to keep on banging the ‘old tools are better than new’ drum to the frequent request for new tools for new users? .....


Simple really - they are very much cheaper (tenth of the price) widely available and generally are good. 
I'm a bit suspicious of all the retro tool revivals of discontinued models, which may have been discontinued for very good reasons!


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## Andy Kev. (29 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> Simple really - they are very much cheaper (tenth of the price) widely available and generally are good.
> I'm a bit suspicious of all the retro tool revivals of discontinued models, which may have been discontinued for very good reasons!


I can say from experience and direct comparison that the retro reactivation of the LAJ is an exception to the rule. It's simply a very good tool. See if you can get a try of one, just out of curiosity. I think that you might be pleasantly surprised.

Incidentally, to regrind the blade of my LAJ does take a lot, lot longer than to regrind the blade of my Record 5 1/2 ... but routine sharpening is equally quick on both because obviously its only the very edge that is involved in each case.


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## Andy Kev. (29 Dec 2020)

shed9 said:


> Not quite sure why people are so keen to keep on banging the ‘old tools are better than new’ drum to the frequent request for new tools for new users? I get it if people are looking to fix up old tools but when they specifically ask for ready to use tooling then surely the focus is the end use.
> 
> New tools and good ones at that have a very legitimate place in the woodworking sector, both at the professional and hobbyist level. The availability of well-made functional tools should be embraced and thoroughly encouraged. Watch and understand the full manufacturing and quality control process for a Lie Nielsen, a Clifton or a Veritas bench plane and then see if the argument of ‘posh priced tools’ still holds water.
> Do food forums advise forum members to buy old Kenwood chef’s and rewire the motor themselves as opposed to a new ready to use Kitchen Aid? Perhaps they do?
> ...


I think that the claim ought to be modified from "the old ones are better" to "the old ones will function just as well if you have got them fettled properly". Obviously there is virtually no fettling to do on a brand new plane from one of the top three manufacturers and, given modern manufacturing processes, they are probably made to finer tolerances.


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## shed9 (29 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> Simple really - they are very much cheaper (tenth of the price) widely available and generally are good.


A tool ten times cheaper is cheaper for a reason and that breaks down (but not limited) to lower quality manufacturing processes, lower QC, lower quality materials, minimal R&D and lower wages for real people. Buying much cheaper tools is not right for everyone and price is not always the driver.



Jacob said:


> I'm a bit suspicious of all the retro tool revivals of discontinued models, which may have been discontinued for very good reasons!


Good design doesn't need redesigning so not sure this is as much a retro revival, more a manufacturing revival. Also Lee Valley could hardly be accused of retro tools.


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## shed9 (29 Dec 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> I think that the claim ought to be modified from "the old ones are better" to "the old ones will function just as well if you have got them fettled properly"


In this case, I agree, it probably should.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> I think that the claim ought to be modified from "the old ones are better" to "the old ones will function just as well if you have got them fettled properly". Obviously there is virtually no fettling to do on a brand new plane from one of the top three manufacturers and, given modern manufacturing processes, they are probably made to finer tolerances.


Yes OK but learning how to fettle them is an essential skill and avoiding this by spending £350 extra on a LN instead of a old Stanley 4 doesn't look like a good deal to me. It is a lot of money. Plus the old one may not need much fettling anyway.


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## Droogs (29 Dec 2020)

The reason people are pointed towards old tools, is that they work and work well unless they are damaged or mistreated at some point in the past and you are unlucky enough to end up with it. New hand tools are by and large mass produced with little to no QC and mostly barely fit for purpose. 

As your final sentence states the process is the point rather than the just a means to an end. Therefore why go through a process that is frustrating, demoralizing totally corrosive to your image of self worth because you have gone out and bought cheap sh 1 t, that you, due to ignorance in the field, don't know is exactly that. This just leads to people saying coitus elsewhere to this and giving up. 

The majority of those saying buy old stuff and learn it inside out and bring it up to where you need it is that, they are the survivors of that journey and have stuck at it. They also know, yes you can get good quality modern new kit but you must pay a premium for it and people starting out shouldn't have to do so in order to see if they like bashing wood.

After all you wouldn't rush out and buy £500 roller skates just to try out roller disco would you? No you would get a pair of cheapos first or nick your grandads old pair from the loft


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## johnnyb (29 Dec 2020)

many years ago when lie nielsens et al didn't exist and record still existed in Sheffield. we competed with collectors and coveted norris and spiers. I well remember selling all my old planes at a david stanley auction and buying a clifton. I figured I wanted to make stuff not collect stuff. it was a beautiful plane but the iron wasn't as good as some of the planes that I'd sold. go figure I thought. now not many woodworkers use norris planes at all. I suggest buying any plane is a leap. many young joiners have no planes at all.


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## Andy Kev. (29 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> Yes OK but learning how to fettle them is an essential skill and avoiding this by spending £350 extra on a LN instead of a old Stanley 4 doesn't look like a good deal to me. It is a lot of money. Plus the old one may not need much fettling anyway.



You're right. However, fettling is a daunting task for an absolute beginner and of course what the beginner wants to do above all is to get stuck into making things. If you inherit or have an offer of old kit which is absolutely in order, you'd be mad not to take it. Similarly you can buy old kit with confidence if you know somebody with experience who can guide you through the fettling.

A new LAJ from LN or Veritas does indeed cost a lot of money but IMO it is guaranteed to be money well spent because the tool will be absolutely bang on and, rather like the old Records and Stanleys, it will be around and functioning for a century or more (probably lots more) if you give it routine care and attention. Part of the attraction is the element of peace of mind.


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## Roberto Flintofski (29 Dec 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> You're right. However, fettling is a daunting task for an absolute beginner and of course what the beginner wants to do above all is to get stuck into making things. If you inherit or have an offer of old kit which is absolutely in order, you'd be mad not to take it. Similarly you can buy old kit with confidence if you know somebody with experience who can guide you through the fettling.
> 
> A new LAJ from LN or Veritas does indeed cost a lot of money but IMO it is guaranteed to be money well spent because the tool will be absolutely bang on and, rather like the old Records and Stanleys, it will be around and functioning for a century or more (probably lots more) if you give it routine care and attention. Part of the attraction is the element of peace of mind.



Old Stanley, £50 max to buy and fettle, 
A new LAJ from LN £300 will work str8 from the box but will still need fettling to be 100%
Being a newbie myself I would rather go down learning and sorting on an old school unit and then depending on funds and if I felt necessary buy a new one ... not that really you would need to ! A £300-£400 new plane will still need sharpening after a little "newbie use"


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## shed9 (29 Dec 2020)

Roberto Flintofski said:


> Old Stanley, £50 max to buy and fettle,
> A new LAJ from LN £300 will work str8 from the box but will still need fettling to be 100%
> Being a newbie myself I would rather go down learning and sorting on an old school unit and then depending on funds and if I felt necessary buy a new one ... not that really you would need to ! A £300-£400 new plane will still need sharpening after a little "newbie use"


I appreciate that some people will want to learn that process early on and in good time most people who hone their skills probably will but that isn't the basis of the OP. 

As for the idea that a decent old Stanley plus fettling equates to no more than £50 is undervaluing people's time in my opinion. Learning to clean up, possibly flatten the sole, true up the frog and restore a keen edge is not a simple quick process and is totally dependent knowing what to buy in the first place and what eventually turns up from the courier.
As previously noted, financial cost is not always the driver, availability of time, appreciation of a tool and enjoyment of its use is also a factor for some people.

Don't get me wrong I have my fair share of old and new planes - more than I'd care to admit. I've collected and used all types for years but if someone asked for advise on buying a new tool akin to LN (albeit less expensive) and especially if they share the same ethos of myself in buying the best you can, I just wouldn't steer them in the direction of fixing an old tool no was has even seen at that point in the situation.


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## thetyreman (29 Dec 2020)

Roberto Flintofski said:


> A new LAJ from LN £300 will work str8 from the box but will still need fettling to be 100%



you won't need to fettle any LN or Veritas planes, they have standards of quality control that are far higher than normal, I'm not saying you should buy one but that is the reason why they cost a lot more. I use vintage records and stanleys with the original blades and had to fettle them all, some of them worse than others.


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## Roberto Flintofski (29 Dec 2020)

thetyreman said:


> you won't need to fettle any LN or Veritas planes, they have standards of quality control that are far higher than normal, I'm not saying you should buy one but that is the reason why they cost a lot more. I use vintage records and stanleys with the original blades and had to fettle them all, some of them worse than others.




Totally agree however if a total newbie buys one, blunts it and has no idea how to fettle and sharpen it will end in tears


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## shed9 (29 Dec 2020)

Roberto Flintofski said:


> Totally agree however if a total newbie buys one, blunts it and has no idea how to fettle and sharpen it will end in tears


To be fair, fettling an old plane to be usable is likely because of the usual suspects of the sole needing a little work, the frog needing reseating or handles needing a repair, etc. Whilst resharpening a blade is probably also on that list, most people (the OP included) will likely accept that using a ready-to-go plane requires sharpening as part of the cost of ownership anyhow - they just expect to make the other parts function in line with it.


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## Roberto Flintofski (29 Dec 2020)

shed9 said:


> To be fair, fettling an old plane to be usable is likely because of the usual suspects of the sole needing a little work, the frog needing reseating or handles needing a repair, etc. Whilst resharpening a blade is probably also on that list, most people (the OP included) will likely accept that using a ready-to-go plane requires sharpening as part of the cost of ownership anyhow - they just expect to make the other parts function in line with it.



Each to their own and what budgets they are working too, me , I'm tight old and poor !


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## TRITON (29 Dec 2020)

MAKE ONE 

Block of wood, something to act as the iron, chiseling and all manner of crafty type woodworking tools.

I think once you get into something like that and hone a technique, you end up with dozens.


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## cpmczak (29 Dec 2020)

Interesting debate and I can see both sides of the argument. I'm all for picking up an eBay bargain (have done it plenty of times over the years) but, in this case, my time is at a premium (young kids, full time business) so my thought process was that I'd rather spend what precious time I do have working on my woodworking skills rather than getting frustrated with trying to fettle an old plane into a usable condition, when frankly I have no idea where to start!

Obviously I will need to learn to sharpen the blade, and I'll watch some Youtube videos to help me with that, but for the moment, that is probably as far as I want to go in terms of restoring a plane. I've had a look at the Quangsheng planes recommended by others and they seem like a nice middle ground - not outrageously expensive and the sort of quality that should be more than sufficient for my needs and will see me through many years of hobbyist work.


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## Ttrees (29 Dec 2020)

Stanley or Record no.4 and no.5 1/2 on the bay or tool dealer. Look for no hair line cracks in the casting. No split handles preferably , plenty of life left in the cutter preferably. No chips around the mouth and a thick sole (base) checked from looking head on from each end so you can flatten it if need be.
A bit of rust is no issue.
Regardless what plane you get, the most important thing is that you sharpen the cutter well, as a fancy ductile iron plane will be in the same state of affairs as an old rusty one after 20 minutes use.

Tom


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2020)

Fettling a plane is pretty low tech really - about equivalent of maintaining a push bike - but there are people who don't even do that!
Sounding like an old fart I know, but when ar worra lad nobody ever started with a new bike - it'd be somebody's cast off, might even have been their mum's. By the time a new bike turned up we'd all be experts and the first thing we'd do is take it apart and improve it (except spoilt rich kids or sisters of course).
Ditto tools - everything begged borrowed or "found".


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## Just4Fun (30 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> Fettling a plane is pretty low tech really


That is true, but if you have zero experience or knowledge it can be a daunting task. I recently set up an old No 5 for a guy who lives near me. He has taken up woodwork in his retirement and had no idea why his plane was not performing as he thought it should. There was very little wrong with it but he simply did not know where to start.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2020)

Just4Fun said:


> That is true, but if you have zero experience or knowledge it can be a daunting task. I recently set up an old No 5 for a guy who lives near me. He has taken up woodwork in his retirement and had no idea why his plane was not performing as he thought it should. There was very little wrong with it but he simply did not know where to start.


Fair enough. Good that he didn't have to lay out £400 or so instead! 
Not knowing how to do things you've never done before, is normal. Finding out how, from friends, neighbours, publications, is normal. Working it out for yourself is also normal.


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## Corset (30 Dec 2020)

i have literally tidied up 100s of planes over the years through collecting tools (i know i know) and have derusted manyof stanleys record acorn etc. Generally the ones that have been used once and sat in a shed were the least likely to perform well despite being the shiniest. The well worn plane are normally ugliy but sorted. I would note that people tend to stick to stanley and record on ebay so so many middling brands for years past are ignored and these can be pretty decent rapier, whitmore, woden all crop up and are cheaper still. I have 120 planes sat in my garage waiting a clean and tidy all from a closed school dept. Its quite interesting you can see the older planes such as a bedrock, old records and stanleys all nice. Some nice T5 and then newer record marples planes in there which are pretty poor castings (useable but ugly). I have big hands and i find some planes i just cant get my fingers to not hit the adjuster wheel.
Anyway lots to go for on ebay and you can get a whole set for the price of a LN or veritas. I personally prefer a 5 over a 4 but each to their own.


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## Jameshow (30 Dec 2020)

Corset said:


> i have literally tidied up 100s of planes over the years through collecting tools (i know i know) and have derusted manyof stanleys record acorn etc. Generally the ones that have been used once and sat in a shed were the least likely to perform well despite being the shiniest. The well worn plane are normally ugliy but sorted. I would note that people tend to stick to stanley and record on ebay so so many middling brands for years past are ignored and these can be pretty decent rapier, whitmore, woden all crop up and are cheaper still. I have 120 planes sat in my garage waiting a clean and tidy all from a closed school dept. Its quite interesting you can see the older planes such as a bedrock, old records and stanleys all nice. Some nice T5 and then newer record marples planes in there which are pretty poor castings (useable but ugly). I have big hands and i find some planes i just cant get my fingers to not hit the adjuster wheel.
> Anyway lots to go for on ebay and you can get a whole set for the price of a LN or veritas. I personally prefer a 5 over a 4 but each to their own.


What do you think of Acorn / gtl / rapier planes? 

Im going to buy some at some point for my men's shed and it's a toss up between new silverline or s/h cheap planes.

Don't want Stanley l/N etc incase they walk. 

Cheers James


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2020)

Jameshow said:


> What do you think of Acorn / gtl / rapier planes?
> 
> Im going to buy some at some point for my men's shed and it's a toss up between new silverline or s/h cheap planes.
> 
> ...


I've got an Acorn 4 and it's perfectly OK. The only cheap detail is the lateral adjuster which is a folded metal type which you see on later Stanleys Records too, but work fine.
2nd hand is a gamble but some cheapos are out and out duds. I bought a Faithful 10 which was unusable and un remediable. All the parts were well made and the blade was good but they just didn't fit together.
Corset's point about well used ones is good - at least you know they were usable once!
I've got a very nice Stanley 3 which has plastic handles but you really can't tell unless you look very closely. It's very well made with no compromises - the plastic looks like a nicely polished hardwood. Don't necessarily be put off by plastic handles


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## Jameshow (30 Dec 2020)

I'll buy anything that looks plane like, with a proper blade clamp and frog assembly. 

We are waiting for new premises as well as the vaccine to sort the virus out first! 

Cheers James


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## cpmczak (30 Dec 2020)

Ttrees said:


> Stanley or Record no.4 and no.5 1/2 on the bay or tool dealer. Look for no hair line cracks in the casting. No split handles preferably , plenty of life left in the cutter preferably. No chips around the mouth and a thick sole (base) checked from looking head on from each end so you can flatten it if need be.
> A bit of rust is no issue.
> Regardless what plane you get, the most important thing is that you sharpen the cutter well, as a fancy ductile iron plane will be in the same state of affairs as an old rusty one after 20 minutes use.
> 
> Tom





Jacob said:


> Fettling a plane is pretty low tech really - about equivalent of maintaining a push bike - but there are people who don't even do that!
> Sounding like an old fart I know, but when ar worra lad nobody ever started with a new bike - it'd be somebody's cast off, might even have been their mum's. By the time a new bike turned up we'd all be experts and the first thing we'd do is take it apart and improve it (except spoilt rich kids or sisters of course).
> Ditto tools - everything begged borrowed or "found".



OK fine, I think you've actually convinced me that I'm being a bit pretentious here and nothing wrong with looking second hand and learning some new skills along the way. I do have a reputation for being pretty tight but I guess in this case, I've been worried about buying a dud. 

So this one looks decent to my untrained eye. Any thoughts? 









Stanley No 4 wood plane. Sharpened. Woodworking tools. | eBay


A good amount ofStanley blade remains, I have sharpened it. Stanley plane, No 4. Clean and tidy, no cracks.



www.ebay.co.uk


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> OK fine, I think you've actually convinced me that I'm being a bit pretentious here and nothing wrong with looking second hand and learning some new skills along the way. I do have a reputation for being pretty tight but I guess in this case, I've been worried about buying a dud.
> 
> So this one looks decent to my untrained eye. Any thoughts?
> 
> ...


Looks OK though personally I'd rather buy things untouched by restorers. I always feel that over polishing is sign of amateur at work! But there are plenty to chose from on ebay


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## Roberto Flintofski (30 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> OK fine, I think you've actually convinced me that I'm being a bit pretentious here and nothing wrong with looking second hand and learning some new skills along the way. I do have a reputation for being pretty tight but I guess in this case, I've been worried about buying a dud.
> 
> So this one looks decent to my untrained eye. Any thoughts?
> 
> ...




cpmczak ... where in the UK are you?


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## Andy Kev. (30 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> OK fine, I think you've actually convinced me that I'm being a bit pretentious here and nothing wrong with looking second hand and learning some new skills along the way. I do have a reputation for being pretty tight but I guess in this case, I've been worried about buying a dud.
> 
> So this one looks decent to my untrained eye. Any thoughts?
> 
> ...


If you're going to buy second hand, I'd recommend buying from a reputable dealer e.g.









Old Hand Tools - Antique, Collectable & User Quality Old Tools


Welcome to Old Hand Tools, a UK based supplier of quality old tools and other interesting collectables.




www.oldhandtools.co.uk









__





Vintage Old Tools - Antique & Used Second Hand Tools UK


Toolique - Buy & Sell Quality Reconditioned Old Second Hand Carpenters Woodworking tools + Antique & Vintage Collectable Tools for other trades.




www.tooltique.co.uk





You'll need to check such websites fairly frequently as good Record and Stanley planes tend to get snapped up fairly quickly.


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## Jameshow (30 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> OK fine, I think you've actually convinced me that I'm being a bit pretentious here and nothing wrong with looking second hand and learning some new skills along the way. I do have a reputation for being pretty tight but I guess in this case, I've been worried about buying a dud.
> 
> So this one looks decent to my untrained eye. Any thoughts?
> 
> ...



I've been lookung for a mate and that isn't a bad price tbh. 

Cheers James


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## shed9 (30 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> Looks OK though personally I'd rather buy things untouched by restorers. I always feel that over polishing is sign of amateur at work! But there are plenty to chose from on ebay


Have to agree here, unless you are buying from a reputable known source then an Ebay purchase of a restored plane is possibly not the best option, especially the over shiny ones. But then buying an already restored plane is not that far removed from buying a QS variant form a price point and the argument made by others. That particular one in the link looks about the right price and easily passed on if not for you. 

There are usually plenty of No 4 1/2's going second hand, more so than No 4's in my opinion. This may be a good compromise of a smoother with a wider blade and a bit more heft to get through your table tops. Be prepared for a proper work out when you start on the tops, not sure that many people appreciate the actual physical labour involved in planing large areas.

Personally I would use a jointer on a largish top before taking a smoother to it to get the high spots down, else you will just be smoothing an unlevelled board top. All depends on the actual size of course.

As before be warned it can be a slippery slope to more planes.

Have a look at the SuperTool website, the excellent Patrick's Blood and Gore's Stanley history. Just scroll down to the plane numbers at the bottom of the page.


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## cpmczak (30 Dec 2020)

Roberto Flintofski said:


> cpmczak ... where in the UK are you?



Beaconsfield, just west of London


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## Roberto Flintofski (30 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> Beaconsfield, just west of London




Just wondered to see if anyone local to you had a spare that they could loan or sell you or show you how to sharpen and fettle!


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## lurker (30 Dec 2020)

Roberto Flintofski said:


> Just wondered to see if anyone local to you had a spare that they could loan or sell you or show you how to sharpen and fettle!


Same thoughts crossed my mind


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## lurker (30 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> OK fine, I think you've actually convinced me that I'm being a bit pretentious here and nothing wrong with looking second hand and learning some new skills along the way. I do have a reputation for being pretty tight but I guess in this case, I've been worried about buying a dud.
> 
> So this one looks decent to my untrained eye. Any thoughts?
> 
> ...


That’s going to cost you thirty some odd quid, which to my mind is the going rate. It looks fine to me, at worst you will need to fettle it slightly. See Paul Sellers you tube


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## Corset (30 Dec 2020)

Basically as far as i can tell and i have sold about 120 planes this year this is the pricing.
stanley planes go more than record planes. No logical reason why
A stanley plane with uncracked wooden handles is worth a minimum of £18 as this is the cost of a wooden handle set (give or take a bit) Shiny planes regardless of handles will start at around £25 for a number 4. If its in abox around a tenner will be added to it. No 5s witha decent handle are abut £35 but on the whole there seems to be a lot more snapped handles on no5s (maybe the screw puts extra tension on), i have bought smashed no5s and 6s just for the handles. A good no5 will be £50. Add about a tenner for each increas in sizes and half that for a 1/2 size. 4 1/2 seems to be popular with joiners and i find these are the most abused... Clearly 5 1/4 nd oddball collectors special dont fit into this. 
I am no tool dealer but lest say i am a bit sad and scan ebay a lot. 
I personally like record planes but the older stanleys are nice. Made in the USA does seem to bring a better unit but they are older so that carries it own risk. Dont list handles as rosewood if you sell to soemone in the uSA as custome burns them (dont ask how i know)
I would personally look for something around £30 a number 4 with nice handles (its nice to hold something comfortable) by stanley or record. If you learn to sharpen freehand a stayset is nice. Ignore mising paint, a bit of surface rust etc as these are so easy to fix. Big pitting is a pain but unless its around the mouth or heel i am not convinced it makes a difference, i like to think of it as an economy corrugated plane sole..


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## Corset (30 Dec 2020)

Jameshow said:


> What do you think of Acorn / gtl / rapier planes?
> 
> Im going to buy some at some point for my men's shed and it's a toss up between new silverline or s/h cheap planes.
> 
> ...



I think rapier are ok, pretty agricultural but they work. I have had a few gtls they are pretty but i couldnt really get one to work properly. I get the whole thrill of getting a cheap silverline to work but they are just miserably made they dont inspire me to quality work. Acorn are ok but are quite heavy. I would rather have an older nicer plane and spend the 20 mins required to clean them. Basically getting a sharp iron and well fitting lever cap seems to be 90% of the battle. The only really lost causes are if the brass adjuster knob has wrecked the thread. I have never really had much luck removing the locked on left hand thread screws without crusing the thread. But i have abox full of about 50 frogs so i dont tend to worry too much...


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## shed9 (30 Dec 2020)

Corset said:


> Dont list handles as rosewood if you sell to soemone in the uSA as custome burns them (dont ask how i know



Been there with a very early low knob No 2 Stanley purchased from the States......... It will come out in therapy on day.......


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2020)

Corset said:


> Basically as far as i can tell and i have sold about 120 planes this year this is the pricing.
> stanley planes go more than record planes. No logical reason why
> A stanley plane with uncracked wooden handles is worth a minimum of £18 as this is the cost of a wooden handle set (give or take a bit) Shiny planes regardless of handles will start at around £25 for a number 4. If its in abox around a tenner will be added to it. No 5s witha decent handle are abut £35 but on the whole there seems to be a lot more snapped handles on no5s (maybe the screw puts extra tension on), i have bought smashed no5s and 6s just for the handles. A good no5 will be £50. Add about a tenner for each increas in sizes and half that for a 1/2 size. 4 1/2 seems to be popular with joiners and i find these are the most abused... Clearly 5 1/4 nd oddball collectors special dont fit into this.
> I am no tool dealer but lest say i am a bit sad and scan ebay a lot.
> ...


I scan ebay a lot too - I get sudden urges to sharpen and set up knackered old planes!
Yes to Records they are generally better quality than same age Stanleys. Broken handles mendable if it's a clean break.
Useful tip - if a knob or handle won't tighten up enough because it's run out of thread then drop in a washer to take up the slack. What washer, it's an odd size? The stem nut from a normal sports push bike inner tube Presta valve is a perfect fit. Any bike shop should be able to give you a handful, from scrap inner tubes.


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## Corset (30 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> I scan ebay a lot too - I get sudden urges to sharpen and set up knackered old planes!
> Yes to Records they are generally better quality than same age Stanleys. Broken handles mendable if it's a clean break.
> Useful tip - if a knob or handle won't tighten up enough because it's run out of thread then drop in a washer to take up the slack. What washer, it's an odd size? The stem nut from a normal sports push bike inner tube Presta valve is a perfect fit. Any bike shop should be able to give you a handful, from scrap inner tubes.


Yeah i seem to enjoy turning rusty planes back to users too, i like restoring orange rust buckets back to a desireable items. I do sell them but its certainly not for the money haha. It just bothers me that someone would throw a plane away because its a bit rusty or blunt. Often it doesnt take me more than 15 minutes with the right buffing wheel ( not too shiny that looks wrong) to go from rust to gold. its very satisfying i also have a penchance for vices but that is another story
I know what you are saying about the handles but even with the best repairs it does seem to affect selling value, at the end of the day you can buy a non broken handle for not anymore... so why do so. Many are rosewood that are worth repairing but its not always an educated buyer


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## Just4Fun (30 Dec 2020)

Corset said:


> I get the whole thrill of getting a cheap silverline to work but they are just miserably made they dont inspire me to quality work.


My experience is different. I bought a couple of Silverline No 4s. I use 1 as a smoother, so I put some effort into getting the sole flat, but it didn't need anything else. The other I use as a scrub and I didn't do any prep work at all on that one. I use both of them with no problem, and I don't find any difference in use between them and my Stanleys. My Stanleys are either inherited or bought cheaply used and fettled as needed; either way it is always nice to get good results from cheap tools.

The only thing I don't like about the Silverline planes is the corrugated soles, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in use and anyway is not unique to Silverline.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2020)

Getting back to the original question - one variety of plane to ignore, for practical reasons, ancient or modern, are those with Norris style adjusters. They look so neat and sensible but basically don't work at all well, even less well with a low angle plane.
Hence the rise and rise of the Stanley Bailey design with it's highly effective adjustment mech.
I had the LN jack briefly and found it irritating to have to adjust a "premium" plane with a little hammer.
I also had the new Stanley SW jack which was very well made and cheap, but completely spoiled by the crazy decision to use a norris adjuster.


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## jcassidy (30 Dec 2020)

The first thing I was taught using planes is how to sharpen it, set it, and get it working properly, so I wouldn't worry too much about 'how hard is it to get a plane working?', unless it's really thrashed to the point of needing restoration.

I think it's much better to get a decent second hand plane and get it working, than buy a brand spanking new works-right-out-of-the-box. The risks of buying a new plane include destroying it with newbie errors*, buying the wrong type/size for you, and the fact that you'll have developed the wrong expectation for the setup - 'factory perfect' instead of 'good enough'.

I would also add that the best 'size' is entirely personal and depends on how big your hands are, how strong you are, and what type of work you are doing. In my case, anything smaller than 4 1/2 is too small for my hands. 

*If I may list the various ways I have wrecked planes as a young fella, these include destroying the blade trying to sharpen it better, dropping them, cracking the cap by overtightening the screw, stubbornly trying to plane a knot until I broke the tote, and hitting nails more times than I care to remember.


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## Ttrees (30 Dec 2020)

cpmczak said:


> OK fine, I think you've actually convinced me that I'm being a bit pretentious here and nothing wrong with looking second hand and learning some new skills along the way. I do have a reputation for being pretty tight but I guess in this case, I've been worried about buying a dud.
> 
> So this one looks decent to my untrained eye. Any thoughts?



That's the spirit, all these old planes are proper quality, 
and you will be glad you bought them.
That one has all the pictures I would want when buying one.
It might be a bit more unusual to find a longer plane with that good of photography though, 
which you can actually get a good idea of the sole thickness from each end.




Jacob said:


> Looks OK though personally I'd rather buy things untouched by restorers. I always feel that over polishing is sign of amateur at work! But there are plenty to chose from on ebay



I'll second that, and a whole lot more so the case, if it were a longer plane.
I would be looking for something pretty much untouched.

An old untouched rusty plane will likely be in the ball park of being perfectly usable after clean and a sharpening, nothing more needed!
If very cruddy the iron could need a bit more work, if it is pitted.
I don't really mind that bit of work, its the plane for me which is important.

A longer plane is not as straight forward to flatten as a wee no.4,
so I would be wary of overenthusiastic restorations.
If one needs to be flattened, then one can't simply mindlessy rub it onto a flat taught clean lapping plate and expect it to be dead flat.
Just don't be fooled by this impression is all. DAMHIK.

Simple process really, just needs a bit of thought (as in looking with a straight edge of some description)
and possibly spot work before one might repeat the same as seen on 99% of the youtube's out there.
Longer planes will likely get convex if lapped like that.
Do anything but think, total removal of those marker scribbles always means flat.
Keep looking with a straight edge aswell and you won't go far wrong

All the best
Might even be a thought to have a look for something old and rough for extremely cheap like a tenner and have another plane whilst you're looking for a nice one.
A good'un shouldn't take more than 2 weeks to find, (although for me, postage is the main reason for this)
scour the bay and keep searching for new listings if you can't find any buy it now's.

I must confess I haven't looked at some planes on the bay in a while...
I can't afford to find something I'll want!
We all like to see some old tools here so no bother asking what we think about something.
Happy shopping

Tom


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## Artiglio (1 Jan 2021)

Having read this and similar threads, i followed some of the advice,

Bought a USA corrugated 5 1/2 from tooltique, maybe i couldmhave found something cheaper elsewhere but seems to be less than many on ebay go for. As mentioned innthe thread it was a revelation using a plane that had had a bit of attention.
On the back of that I watched a couple of fettling videos and set to work on my 4 1/2 that was my grandfathers. Took me half a day but at the end of it, was a different tool completely.
Then a 6 turned up locally on FB market place , gave that the same treatment and again turned out well.

Up until yesterday i’d never quite understood those that said a planed finish was far superior to a sanded one, now i can see why. 
In future i’ll pay a bit more attention to the planes in the local auctions and not be afraid of bidding onnstuff i’d never have looked at twice in the past.

Many thanks to those that have posted on this and other threads.


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