# Gouge Angel



## Gary Morris (18 Apr 2013)

Hi, can I have some advice please.

I recently bought a woodworking lathe and now comes the time to sharpen the 3 gouges / chisel's, along with 7 that 1 bought off ebay, which are badly ground on the end face (the business end)

I have read several 'forum searches' and the angle for gouges is 45°, 55° and between 50° & 60° 
My understanding of a 'Gouge' is a 'U' shaped tool with the ground edge on the outside circumference and these are 'roughing out tools' to be used on the outside of a bowl etc. 

So would any angle between 45° & 60° be ok for gouges?

My understanding of a 'Chisel' is a 'rectangular' shaped tool with a ground tip at an angle of 45° ?

thanks
Gary


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Apr 2013)

How do you know they are badly ground, when you don't know how to grind them? A few photos may prove helpful.


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## Gary Morris (19 Apr 2013)

Hi Phil, 
I'll post some pictures in the morning, I was going too tonight but it's late. 
I used to be a die sinker / pantographer and used to make my own cutter tool bits from tungsten carbide and cobalt, for engraving, I sort of know how to grind them, but some folks seems to have their own take on what angle to use and their own definition of what a tools called. (within a category) I think a part of my confusion comes from perusing a US woodworking site and my inability to take things in at first.

Some of the tools that I bought from ebay have been roughly ground and have several different grinder angles on one face.

Gray


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## deserter (19 Apr 2013)

phil.p":2olngtim said:


> How do you know they are badly ground, when you don't know how to grind them? A few photos may prove helpful.



I don't have clue how to fly or build an aeroplane but if the wings are missing I know something's not right. 




~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


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## Robbo3 (19 Apr 2013)

As a generalisation :

Shallow flute = Spindle gougue
Deep flute = Bowl gouge
U shape = SPINDLE roughing gouge - note the emphasis of spindle ie cutting along the grain & not across the grain.

Beginners have to learn to both turn & sharpen the tools & you can only turn for so long before sharpening becomes a necessity.

Don't worry about the angles. Again as a generalisation, just follow what's already there. At least you should end up with a sharp tool & you will adapt your stance to compensate.
This rule comes unstuck when the tool has previously been reground poorly & the beginner doesn't have the knowledge to see that it's wrong.


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## Gary Morris (19 Apr 2013)

Thanks for the advice guys, on the 3 that I bought I'll follow them, for the rest I'll post some pictures, I was surprised how quickly the hardened metal became blunt when cutting hardwood, I guess they don't call it hard for nothing.

thanks
Gary


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Apr 2013)

deserter":c1n4p0ia said:


> phil.p":c1n4p0ia said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know they are badly ground, when you don't know how to grind them? A few photos may prove helpful.
> ...


Yes, but you wouldn't have to ask someone else.


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## Bodrighy (19 Apr 2013)

Generally the skew is the only chisel that turners use, the rest are gouges. The angles vary from turner to turner though the two you mentioned ar the most common. As you get more experience you will find out what works best for you. Main thing is to always remember to keep the bevel rubbing when using them and keep them sharp. Generally, once they are sharp you should only need to give them a quick swipe while working, shouldn't need to sharpen as such that often. 

Pete


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## loftyhermes (19 Apr 2013)

When I started turning many, many moons ago I followed the angles that where already ground by the manufacturer (Record as it happens) but over the years they have changed to what I now use and is comfortable for me, (I have no idea what the angle is). I use just two angles for grinding, all my gouges are the same angle and my skews and parting tools to a different angle. I have two lines marked at the side of the grinder, the top one for the skews and parting tools and the bottom line for all my gouges. Simple it may be but it works for me.



The top


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## Spindle (19 Apr 2013)

Hi

This link will take you to the Tormek manual - it will give you an idea of where to start from and the profiles to aim for.

http://www.tormek.com/en/handbook/index.php

Regards Mick


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## Gary Morris (19 Apr 2013)

Thanks for the replies and links guys, I've taken some pictures of the lathe tools that I've bought, 2 from Axminster and the rest on ebay.




Top photo - The two on the right are by Crown














Just a few photos to show the grinding angle as is. 

Gary


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Apr 2013)

The middle tool in the top picture is not a turning tool, nor is the one to it's left. Nice tools, though - identify them and put them on evil bay again, or put a realistic price on them and sell them here.


 ....and yes, before some eejit tells me - the middle one's a Marples.


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## Robbo3 (20 Apr 2013)

Now we are getting on to the differences in tools made from carbon steel & High Speed Steel (HSS). Nothing wrong with carbon steel other than it blunts quickly & is easily blued on the grinder which removes the temper.

The only two that look like HSS are the dark handled round nose scraper & bowl gouge, on the right in photo one.

The centre gouge is for paring & would be positively dangerous to use on the lathe, because it is sharpened on the inside of the flute (incannel ?).

The skew (3rd from right, photo one) looks like it's been nicely ground if it's the same both sides. A gentle hone with a stone (oil or diamond) resting on the cutting edge & the bottom of the grind (the two high lines) should make it usable.

The two flat chisels are abortions, the smaller where somebody has tried to make a scraper from a standard wood chisel. It can be reground & used but won't hold an edge for very long.

Now to the bit that you have been waiting for, the three gouges. Hmmm, how can I break this gently. In there present state I would consider them to be unusable & possibly dangerous.
I can't tell from the photo whether they are spindle or bowl gouges but either way they need to be both sharpened & reshaped to remove the high corners. Easy to do with a jig but requires a learning curve when using a flat platform or even freehand.


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## Paul Hannaby (20 Apr 2013)

Bodrighy":2p0ygh18 said:


> Generally the skew is the only chisel that turners use
> 
> Pete



What about square chisels?

For spindle gouges, an angle of around 40 - 45 degrees would be fine. I use 42. 

For bowl gouges, around 50 degrees would be fine if you only have one. I use 48 and 60 degrees.

There are no right or wrong angles, whatever works for you is right!

You will find in use that you will be sharpening every few minutes so a grinder or sharpening system will save lots of time in the long run.


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## Bodrighy (20 Apr 2013)

Paul Hannaby":25nw6cw6 said:


> Bodrighy":25nw6cw6 said:
> 
> 
> > Generally the skew is the only chisel that turners use
> ...



What about square chisels?

Not sure what you mean by square chisels Paul? I have only ever heard of skews being referred to as chisels. Always willing to learn something new though LOL. 

Pete


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## nev (20 Apr 2013)

Hi Gary,
A picture paints a thousand words and all that, good man for posting.
Admittedly my experience is limited but I'm impressed if you've managed to successfully use the pictured tools to produce anything on the lathe. :shock: 

As said some are not for using with a lathe (pic t6)
some need some fettling (pic t4)
and some need to be completely reshaped (pic t3)

some good pointers and an idea of angles here ... http://www.peterchild.co.uk/goug.htm

step 1. Get yerself (or make up) a simple tilting bed grinding jig ..











and then watch this video link to someone who knows what they're doing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc
others worth a watch are bob hamilton and stuintokyo.


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## Gary Morris (20 Apr 2013)

Thank you, guys for all of the advice. I haven't used any of the tools except for the two that I bought from Axminster, and I certainly won't be using the ones that are for turning until there restored. Lofty and Nev, I read a post about jet v Record grinders and I think I'm going to get the Record one - 8" for around £74 - £79 and I've seen a jig on ebay that's similar to the one in your photo Nev, it looks quite sturdy and costs about £25
I've only been fiddling so far with the lathe, as in not doing a great deal until I have it all set up (lathe, grinder & know how) I've re sharpened my two Crown tools with a couple of finger stones and a eze-lap diamond finger stone. Thank you all for helping 

Gary


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## Spindle (20 Apr 2013)

Hi Gary

Good plan in my opinion - the two jigs I use almost every turning session are a fingernail profiler and an adjustable table, with these and the grinder you may never need another jig. With this set up you will be able to get repeatable results when sharpening.

Regards Mick

PS: I'd leave the Cindy Drozda, (sandles in the workshop  ), double bevels for now until you've mastered using tools with a basic grind.


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## Walter Hall (20 Apr 2013)

Bodrighy":3d4x9y5i said:


> Paul Hannaby":3d4x9y5i said:
> 
> 
> > Bodrighy":3d4x9y5i said:
> ...



Square ended chisels are traditional tools used for planing cuts. Henry Taylor still make them:

http://www.1066tools.co.uk/tools/Square ... isels.html


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## Robbo3 (20 Apr 2013)

The ins & outs of square chisels are not helpful to beginners - however they do seem to be popular with continental turners.

Gary - Without an actual link, some points to ponder:

Most of the Ebay sets have the drawback of only one base clamp, so can only be used on one side of the grinder - two base clamps allows all the holders to be swapped between wheels. Some of the ebay sets have no flat table.

The gouge holders tend to be fixed angle thus you have to accept the grind shape that it gives - that's shape of the grind not grinding angle which is altered by moving the bottom arm in & out. Might not be a problem to start with but can restrict you later on. You could of course buy an adjustable gouge holder at a later date .. or make your own.
The Tormek gouge jig, pages 72-79, explains sharpening gouges better than I can
- http://www.tormek.com/en/handbook/pdf/h ... svd185.pdf


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