# sharpening why a curved plane blade



## engineer one (24 Sep 2005)

ok back doing some more woodworking, and discussing things in person with some other carpenters, i ask a question.
given that we have so much adjustment on metal planes now, why do we need to give the blade a curve?

i can understand when planes were all of wood, (except blade) then having a curve was useful for the average woodworker, since it meant that adjustments were easier.
now however, particularly with the new LV and even LN and Clifton planes, there are various devices for ensuring that the blade is square across the mouth, and if you have angled it that the blade is accurate across the face. so why the curve?

if you try the plane on the edges of a piece of wood, and you get even shavings,then surely that is all that matters.
the reason i ask is that we seem to be getting to a point where new people 
are scared off hand work because the perceived wisdom is that your tools have to be perfect.

wood solid wood does not allow for real engineering standards, it moves, so why worry about accuracy of microns when taking off shavings, too little clearance and the draw won't open or the cabinet will distort due to bad design. 

surely the important thing is for people, both pro and amateur to actually make things and complete them, not buy pretty tools to look at.

i think many people have taken the sharpening story too far, and are in danger of overemphasizing the value of it. if your plane is easy to push and you get a reasonably flat surface, should that not be enough.
the old cabinet makers would i think laugh at our over concern for 
flatness.

my recent experience suggests that sharpening should work as follows, 
use a powered wheel to get your bevel back quickly, i use a tormek,
then flatten the back on a stone, or diamond surface, and the work the bevel to get a good cutting edge with a honing guide and end up with a japanese stone, these moves don't take too long and allow you to be as sharp as you want.

maybe i am just being contentious but seems to me the prime objective is to make things of beauty which we use or sell. sometimes it is easy to teach too long, and then think that production work has to have the same time consuming input.

no slings no arrows, just a thought for honest comment.

paul :?


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## ydb1md (24 Sep 2005)

Personally, the only reason that I camber the blade is to eliminate the possibility of "plane tracks" on my work.


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## trevtheturner (24 Sep 2005)

Hi Paul,

I do the same as ydb1md for exactly the same reason, although in my case I am not sure I would go so far as to call it a 'camber'. I just slightly ease the outside corners of the plane iron and find that is sufficient. The may, of course, be some instances where a pronounced camber is required, for instance on a scrub plane.

Otherwise, with regard to your comments, I share your sentiments exactly. And I use a Tormek, which I find excellent.

Cheers,

Trev.


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## MikeW (24 Sep 2005)

Good thing we all got in this conversation before the rounded blade society showed up  

Paul, you know my preferences from past conversations. I mostly hand hone on those horrible Shapton stones that need...WATER...as nothing ever really is dulled.

On the off chance I purchase a new edge tool (well, truly new or just new to me) I too use a Tormek to shape the blade, eased corners on the smoothers, some sort of radius on the scrub (you know, that huge #5 1/4 I converted :roll: ) and on one of my jack planes and a LV #6, a small radius that is mostly flat towards the center.

The slight radius on those two planes is because I use them for waste removal following a scrub or in lieu of one. These are followed by planes with only the corners eased. And I use either the flat portion or a plane with a flat hone for shaping edges.

But, to be fair (me?) there are those who advocate differing cambers for all or nearly all planes. That's cool. Works for them. And it is always easier to instruct others--in person or not--how one does things in order to achieve desired results. And the thing is, that may be what works for the person in question.

My philosphy concerning sharpening or plane usage is, get ready, I don't really care. If one wishes to use stones be they oil water or river rocks, whatever. If it achieves what they want, great. I'll show them how to do it. If it is SS, a power machine, whatever. I don't care. That said, I do have my preferences and it is those I usually begin with because it is easier to communicate the known.

Plane use? Plane set up? If it works for the individual there isn't much I would be willing to argue except in the philosophical sense. I mean, what if someone says they use a #9 1/2 to joint 5 foot long boards. And that it works for them. What can one say, really, other than "Wow, I can't imagine it working, but it must for you." Because it is not my experience, though, I would not instruct another to do it--unless it is the only plane they had and there was not a way for them to get a "proper" plane. Then I would try my hardest to help the person.

Ok. three posts in less than 30 minutes. Time to lay off the dinner wine, eh?

Mike


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## ydb1md (24 Sep 2005)

MikeW":2wo23qqx said:


> Ok. three posts in less than 30 minutes. Time to lay off the dinner wine, eh?
> Mike



Ok Mike, while you're good and sauced, you haven't heard any rumours of new Veritas tools, have you? :wink: :lol: 

dave


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## MikeW (24 Sep 2005)

ydb1md":2j0djo5c said:


> MikeW":2j0djo5c said:
> 
> 
> > Ok. three posts in less than 30 minutes. Time to lay off the dinner wine, eh? Mike
> ...


Well Dave, I was just talking with Rob today and we =; [-X 

Nah, I'm a mushroom too. You know, fed manure and kept in the dark :wink: 

Mike
who isn't that tipsy...


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## Philly (24 Sep 2005)

Hi Paul


engineer one":2mjmadam said:


> we seem to be getting to a point where new people are scared off hand work because the perceived wisdom is that your tools have to be perfect


I wouldn't go that far-a big part of the enjoyment with tools is tweaking them to achieve better performance. As an engineer I assume you are not averse to that.... :wink: 


engineer one":2mjmadam said:


> surely the important thing is for people, both pro and amateur to actually make things and complete them, not buy pretty tools to look at.


Certainly making actual items is the the payoff but a lot of hobby WW'ers enjoy building their workshops, buying tweaking and playing with their tools and even-yes-just being proud of a selection of tools that they love. Some weirdos even enjoy building jigs! (no names :lol: )
As we woodworkers are a solitory bunch, it's nice to have a forum such as this where we can swap stories, tips and even just gloat over new purchases. We are all at different levels of skill and commitment and I think most people realize that only a minimum of tools are really needed to produce good work.
Hope these points make sense,
best regards
Philly


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## engineer one (24 Sep 2005)

what is interesting so far is the reference to plane tracks, but since we are taught to plane as we paint, i.e overlap the track slightly why should you get tracks???

i an understand curves for fast and large stock removal, since you have the odd shape of the wood at the beginning, but when finishing, why??
surely the wood is as flat as you are going to get it, and you are only removing machining marks, so thin shavings. how will this give you tracks????

as for the rest of you i don't know i must be missing the best part of woodwork so far, the wine drinking!!!!!!!!!!!!

i agree that fettling tools at the beginning is a great thing, but eventually, you have to use the b***** things. if you delay the use by spending so long fettling, what are you achieving??
still waiting the technical answer, not the "i use it and it works for me", not that there is anything wrong with that but, is there any real science behind it??

paul :?


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## Alf (24 Sep 2005)

engineer one":xdrg4i4y said:


> there are various devices for ensuring that the blade is square across the mouth, and if you have angled it that the blade is accurate across the face. so why the curve?
> 
> if you try the plane on the edges of a piece of wood, and you get even shavings,then surely that is all that matters.
> the reason i ask is that we seem to be getting to a point where new people
> are scared off hand work because the perceived wisdom is that your tools have to be perfect.


Ironically, I'd always thought curving your blades takes away a good deal of the necessity for perfection - in both sharpening and planing. 

You simply _can't_ over-emphasise the importance of sharp edges on hand tools. But you _can_ over-emphasise the means to achieve them, which is what I believe you're getting at, Paul. And I quite agree. 

I don't know if I've become grouped into the sharpening fanatic catergory, but if so, it's all been a horrible mistake. Given the choice I'd be freehand honing on my oilstone just as I was before. Circumstances have meant I have the opportunity to try blades that don't like my oilstone much and a honing guide that doesn't like me much. I persevere because I believe there should be no such thing as a free lunch and that I _should_ persevere in case I can help someone else with my experiences. As it happens, in so doing, I've learnt a bit more about what's sharp and what isn't, but I doubt the finished product is much better - or worse, I hope! :lol: For some folks the finished project simply isn't what they do it for; perhaps they like to focus on the science behind a sharp edge, or the comparision between plane types, or which parts of which combination planes are interchangable. Or maybe they like to do a bit of everything, and achieve pipper all in anything - like me.  

'Course the biggest single problem is perception. Because of the medium in which we're discussing all this, I's get dotted and T's crossed to the Nth degree to avoid misunderstandings, and a simple description can turn into a newbie-scaring diatribe apparently describing the search for perfection. But be fair, it's be even less helpful to newbies if we all simply wrote "Sharpening? I just hone the blade and go back to work". 

Cheers, Alf


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## Alf (24 Sep 2005)

Paul, you're, quite rightly, keen to get on and actually use your planes. Excellent. Then try it for yourself and see. If you can do it, good for you. But I believe you'll need a perfectly straight blade, set perfectly square in your plane and working on a perfectly flat board. Sure as My Holtey makes pretty plane-shaped works of art, *I* couldn't do it. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (24 Sep 2005)

take a board with the edge at an angle of say 80 degrees ot the face

Try to plane the edge of that board perpendicular to the sides with a flat blade - even with the lateral adjsuter

Now try with a curved blade.

That and a lack of plane tracks on flat boards is the reason.


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## MikeW (24 Sep 2005)

Tony":3ir2qegm said:


> take a board with the edge at an angle of say 80 degrees ot the face
> Try to plane the edge of that board perpendicular to the sides with a flat blade - even with the lateral adjsuter
> Now try with a curved blade.


Ok. Do it all the time. Maybe not 80*, never measured them. Rarely do I use the lateral adjuster--even on my planes that have them.

It's all summed up in: whatever works for you. For me, it is difficult to use a cambered iron on a board's edge. Can't do it. Call me "radially challenged."

But that's why there are different methods their proponents. What we shouldn't loose sight of is when we are giving advice to someone, we need to try and understand the problems they are having, the method they are using and alter our advice to suit the way they are working. Not to say we cannot and should not offer alternative methods, or even challenge their method altogether.

But should you, Tony, (speaking hypothetically here) tell me you are having difficulty using a cambered iron on a board's edge, I'll probably tell you I use a straight iron to do that task. If you aren't interested in even trying that method, I'll do my best to help with your chosen one. I do understand how to do it. It's the performance of it that gets me :roll: .

Hey, my two cent philosphy is worth what y'all just paid for it :lol: 

Mike


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## Anonymous (24 Sep 2005)

MikeW":13it1oiw said:


> But should you, Tony, (speaking hypothetically here) tell me you are having difficulty using a cambered iron on a board's edge, I'll probably tell you I use a straight iron to do that task. If you aren't interested in even trying that method, I'll do my best to help with your chosen one. I do understand how to do it. It's the performance of it that gets me :roll: .
> 
> Mike



Hi Mike

It's not about being interested in using a straight blade, it's that the cambered blade works brilliantly for me and many others. I never tried it until I read DCs out porings, and he is right, it is easier for me.

I have tried to plane boards square without a cambered blade but it is much harder without a shooting board and I don't have an 8ft shooting board lying around :lol: 

My post was a simple answer to the original question 'why use a cambered blade?' :wink:


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## MikeW (24 Sep 2005)

Tony":3st7hu5x said:


> MikeW":3st7hu5x said:
> 
> 
> > But should you, Tony, (speaking hypothetically here) tell me you are having difficulty using a cambered iron on a board's edge, I'll probably tell you I use a straight iron to do that task. If you aren't interested in even trying that method, I'll do my best to help with your chosen one. I do understand how to do it. It's the performance of it that gets me :roll: . Mike
> ...


Oh I agree. I've seen it done. I was using you in a hypothetical situation. Didn't mean to imply you actually were not interested. 


Tony":3st7hu5x said:


> I have tried to plane boards square without a cambered blade but it is much harder without a shooting board and I don't have an 8ft shooting board lying around :lol:


You have found what works best for you despite trying a straight edge. I have found what works best for me, despite trying to use a cambered edge.


Tony":3st7hu5x said:


> [My post was a simple answer to the original question 'why use a cambered blade?' :wink:


Well, and a challenge in a sense to try the method you find best. I in part was answering that challenge, as well as a feeble attempt at answering that part of Paul's post wherein he criticises (not improperly) the collective "we" when we advise others how to do something. 

Too, it was an attempt to explain why I personally don't care how someone does something. I'll go with the flow, so to speak, and try to help them do what they want, the way they are attempting it. As I'm sure you do.


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## Midnight (24 Sep 2005)

> take a board with the edge at an angle of say 80 degrees ot the face



OK... wainey edge do...???



> Try to plane the edge of that board perpendicular to the sides with a flat blade - even with the lateral adjsuter



Right...?? whas that it..???



> Now try with a curved blade.



ummmm...... why..?? worked perfectly with the straight blade....

#9 and a long grain shooting board... gotta love whatchya can do with em...

 :wink:


fwiw...

I use vairying degrees of curves but they're confined to my scrub, #5 and one blade for my #62... the rest are honed perfectly square with just the corners clipped; tram-lines for the prevention of...


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## Anonymous (24 Sep 2005)

MikeW":11iemllr said:


> Too, it was an attempt to explain why I personally don't care how someone does something. I'll go with the flow, so to speak, and try to help them do what they want, the way they are attempting it. As I'm sure you do.



Absolutely Mike, well said :wink:



> ummmm...... why..?? worked perfectly with the straight blade....



Just try it and see :lol: I used to struggle along with a straight ground blade too :wink: :lol:


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## engineer one (25 Sep 2005)

its nice to see i can start a small conflagration, but heres the real point.

when a guy starts up woodwork either for the first time, or resumes after some years, he/she(sorry) may not immediately move to hand tools, but eventually the pull will be too great, so they buy a plane, check the advice and discover they have to learn a whole other skill, sharpening, BEFORE they can properly use their plane, when all they want to do is make furniture, picture frames or whatever. Then comes the argument, about the best way to sharpen, and everybody and it would appear their dogs, have a viewpoint, and in many cases anyone elses view is wrong.

seems to me that when we have massive companies like stanley, and irwin, or american tool producing products for sale that then need a bunch of work doing to them to make them "fit for the purpose" there is either something wrong with us, or there is a major con going on.

if those branded products were cheap and cheerful, then you would not mind too much however they ain't. in fact they seem to be really not that much under LV, and LN when you look at the effort you have to put in to get them to work properly.

if you go to a metal work shop or even B&Q, and buy a hacksaw, or a cold chisel for metal work, you expect to go home and use it immediately without sharpening again, why has it become the norm (sorry) in woodwork to accept that you need to spend precious time sharpening a sharp tool????

surely the beginner should be able to walk into a tool store, buy a plane, and maybe a strop, take it home, hone the blade, strop it, and then use it?
but as of now they cannot. firstly the plane blade is not properly sharpened or shaped, second the body may not be flat. next they have to find a cheap and quick way to sharpen. remember if you are a trained woodworker, the first thing you do is learn sharpening. when i did my training at Vauxhall as a metalworker, my first job was filing a 1inch metal cube, hacksaw a bit of 1 1/4 square bar, and use a file and square to get it right. no playing around sharpening the file.

as for the curve, here we go again, if you are doing an edge that is less or more than 90 degrees, then freehand a curved blade might make it slightly easier to start, if you are experienced, but what if you are new to it???? that's why LV have their magic metal plate that fixes to your plane for edge work. if the plane is square to the front then either shape will work, but if your plane is not square to the face, then a curved blade will make life easier, but i feel that it is a blind, and a properly set straight blade with notched corners will do just as well.

why frighten off the newcomers by being so pedantic about what works, we each develop a skill level which makes us comfortable, but frightening people before they start is way too scary for me.

anyway so far no one has come up with the science, only "it works for me" which i do not knock, am just keen to see why, and help others not get paranoid about not following the latest fashion.

"sharpen your blade, plane the wood, make the joints, assemble the furniture, polish, and bathe in the reflected glow" unless of course you collect planes.

thanks for the input

paul :lol:


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## MikeW (25 Sep 2005)

Ok Paul, question time.

Were you intimidated or scared away? Nah. I don't think so. Certainly when one asks a question in a public forum they can expect a variety of answers, eh? Best way, this way, my way and what not.

I can remember the first real edge tool I ever had. A pocket knife. I just bought it with yard work money. When it got dull, I asked my grandfather what to do. He said something to the effect, here's how to sharpen the blade and he showed me. My father had other ideas on how to sharpen. I made a choice, sharpened my blade and kept on whittling. Seems to me if a child can figure it out, so can an adult.

Now fast forward. I am (called) an adult. Things are more complicated, sort of. More choices, really. So I listen, try what I hear and decide.

Major companies build tools for construction when it comes to woodworking tools. That is the major market. Homeowner's tools may or may not be the same "quality," but they are certainly no better. That is the level of result one can expect in major companies' tools.

But even with a Record, Stanley tool, I can still build what I build. It may not be exactly as refined, but I can build it. More refined tools are just that: more refined. That does not mean they will not dull, wear out, or require something in order to experience it fullest performance. Big deal. Ultimately it is what one does with the tool that matters. When one's ability is able to out perform their tools, they are ready to either fettle the tools, buy better tools, or...whatever.

There isn't much science to most of this. If that's what you are looking for, you're gonna be dissapointed. What there is, and what is offered, are options. All roads do lead to Rome.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (25 Sep 2005)

Hi Paul

I think Mike's reply was a particularly apt one.

You wrote:


> why frighten off the newcomers by being so pedantic about what works, we each develop a skill level which makes us comfortable, but frightening people before they start is way too scary for me.



I don't believe it is the tool companies that frighten off the would-be woodworkers. Rather, it is the forums (such as this one) that might do that job. Of course, these forums might equally motivate and encourage novices. It all comes down to the advice that is given, the stage the novice is at to deal with the advice, and the impatience that this person has to work in a world that requires patience to learn. 

Cambering blades is not a novice issue. Some do it , some don't. There is not one way. That old chestnut, "many ways to skin the cat", is particularly appropriate in woodwork. So you end up with suggestions from many who are adament that their way is best. Very confusing. Do not confuse basic setting up with advanced tuning strategies. The former are necessary (get the blade reasonably sharp, make sure it is square in the plane, tighten down the screws so that it does not fall out. Extend blade a little until it cuts. Finished. Oh, learn to read grain direction. Have fun stuffing up. Learn from this and try again). The latter, the tuning tips, are for later when you appreciate what the potential difference might be(after you have stuffed up a few too many times). Actually, I am more a master of rescuing my stuff-ups, and have now come to believe that _this_ is the art of woodworking  

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (25 Sep 2005)

engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> when a guy starts up woodwork either for the first time, or resumes after some years, he/she(sorry) may not immediately move to hand tools, but eventually the pull will be too great, so they buy a plane, check the advice and discover they have to learn a whole other skill, sharpening, BEFORE they can properly use their plane, when all they want to do is make furniture, picture frames or whatever. Then comes the argument, about the best way to sharpen, and everybody and it would appear their dogs, have a viewpoint, and in many cases anyone elses view is wrong.


Yep. That's woodworking. That's part of it and always has been. Woodworking is not engineering. 



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> seems to me that when we have massive companies like stanley, and irwin, or american tool producing products for sale that then need a bunch of work doing to them to make them "fit for the purpose" there is either something wrong with us, or there is a major con going on.


Not wanting to be sued, I won't comment. The majority of these tools are being bought by DIY-ers who might use the thing twice and probably _will_ throw the thing away when it's blunt. :roll:



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> if those branded products were cheap and cheerful, then you would not mind too much however they ain't. in fact they seem to be really not that much under LV, and LN when you look at the effort you have to put in to get them to work properly.


You're paying for the 70 years of brand name goodness that went before - everyone and his Aunt Lillian will recognise "Record" on a plane, and say "My grandfather/uncle/the odd job man down our street had one of those, so they must be good" and pay accordingly. It'll take a long, long time before the truth finally tarnishes the brand once and for all.



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> if you go to a metal work shop or even B&Q, and buy a hacksaw, or a cold chisel for metal work, you expect to go home and use it immediately without sharpening again, why has it become the norm (sorry) in woodwork to accept that you need to spend precious time sharpening a sharp tool????


Who said anything about sharpening a sharp tool? Haven't you ever sharpened a cold chisel?



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> surely the beginner should be able to walk into a tool store, buy a plane, and maybe a strop, take it home, hone the blade, strop it, and then use it? but as of now they cannot.


Who says they can't?



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> firstly the plane blade is not properly sharpened


Hang on, haven't they just taken it home and honed it?



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> or shaped


To be fair, how would the plane manufacturer know what shape you wanted? 



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> second the body may not be flat.


Ah, so you're not complaining about sharpening fetishists, but plane tuning ones?



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> next they have to find a cheap and quick way to sharpen.


Scary Sharp f'rinstance?



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> remember if you are a trained woodworker, the first thing you do is learn sharpening. when i did my training at Vauxhall as a metalworker, my first job was filing a 1inch metal cube, hacksaw a bit of 1 1/4 square bar, and use a file and square to get it right. no playing around sharpening the file.


Paul, it's not metalwork. The idea of filing a piece of metal into a cube fills me with a deep desire to yawn, so I wouldn't take up metalwork. If sharpening and setting up a plane in order to use it does the same for the newbie, perhaps hand planing isn't for them either? 



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> as for the curve, here we go again, if you are doing an edge that is less or more than 90 degrees, then freehand a curved blade might make it slightly easier to start, if you are experienced, but what if you are new to it????


It's probably very similar to learning how to file a piece of metal into a cube. 



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> that's why LV have their magic metal plate that fixes to your plane for edge work.


Which is often suggested to beginners, or alternatives to achieve the same thing. 



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> if the plane is square to the front then either shape will work


Sorry, don't follow which bit's square to what.



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> but if your plane is not square to the face, then a curved blade will make life easier, but i feel that it is a blind, and a properly set straight blade with notched corners will do just as well.


Curved blades for edge jointing aren't to accommodate out-of-square plane sides, but rather a whole different approach to how you use the plane to remove wood where _you_ want to.



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> why frighten off the newcomers by being so pedantic about what works, we each develop a skill level which makes us comfortable, but frightening people before they start is way too scary for me.


Oh deary me, I do believe even new woodworkers have the ability to make choices on who to listen to and who not to.



engineer one":1uyfmacf said:


> anyway so far no one has come up with the science, only "it works for me" which i do not knock, am just keen to see why, and help others not get paranoid about not following the latest fashion.


Which latest fashion? Cambered blades are as old as the hills. Start with this.



Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Actually, I am more a master of rescuing my stuff-ups, and have now come to believe that _this_ is the art of woodworking


:lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## engineer one (25 Sep 2005)

i know it ain't metalwork, 
but a lot of modern talk is about accuracy which is beyond the average piece of wood(solid) 

cambered blades have been around for years because they were developed for use in wooden plane bodies which were not capable of too much adjustment laterally, so a curve gave more chances to get it right, but you plane a smaller cross section of the plank (me)

as for the edge planing, in general you try to make the edge at 90 degrees to the face, to do that properly the plane face must be at 90 degrees to the wood face at which point i think flat is better, because it is easier to take one complete set of shavings along a piece than keep moving the plane across to account for the curved blade.

however mike w is right, anyone can sharpen, it is the next stage that is scary, and yes i have sharpened cold chisels, but no worries about scary sharp.

alf if metal work bores you i understand, but relate to wood, the most important first job is to plane the wood flat and square to an almost finished size. same idea, different tools, so does planing the wood bore you too? (only ask)

what i am trying to get at is that we have recently spent a lot of time here and in magazines learning about tools being sharp, but the ideas all move forward, and people get entrenched in a viewpoint, and often ignore newer ideas. yet everyday there is a new brand of sharpening gizmo on the market.
as a beginner where do you start, and then where do you stop?

surely it is time to have a standard starting off point for those with a little money and some enthusiasm, then steps up the ladder.

but when there are so many differing views is it any wonder people say s*d it??

it seems the answer is no one really knows why we persevere with curved blades except it seems for some it works, and others do not even notch the edges because it works for them

confuse you will be!!!!!!!!!!!
but i hope we have all learned a little more, and i thank you for the input.
paul :wink: :lol:


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## Midnight (25 Sep 2005)

> Just try it and see I used to struggle along with a straight ground blade too



OK.... firstly... Tony... I understand the point you're making...honestly I hear what you're sayin bro... thing is.. a curved blade on its own aint gonna cut it... ya gotta look at the whole system...

For me, it breaks down cos, well firstly, I don't have a vice capable of holding stock vertically; edges for the planing of...

Secondly... when I did... the instabilities in my bench rendered it impossible to edge joint a board; the plane never stood a chance of staying on the edge of the board... soooooo....

I built the shooting board... it lets me work without the face vice, allows superb accuracy irrespective of how the bench is wiggling around on its castors... and the method of work falls well inside the domain of "no brainer".... once its set up its impossible to get it wrong...

In short... this system, my system, works within the limitations of my bench, my tools and my capabilities.... when it aint broke, why fix it...???


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## MikeW (25 Sep 2005)

engineer one":50rw7ok9 said:


> ...snip...
> cambered blades have been around for years because they were developed for use in wooden plane bodies which were not capable of too much adjustment laterally, so a curve gave more chances to get it right,


Hey Paul,
Historically inaccurate. This assumes people couldn't/didn't sharpen their irons straight. I have seen 200 year old planes that have irons untouch for countless years that are a true 90*--at least close enough. 

In fact, most of what we call bench planes I have ever seen where the irons have been undisturbed for years are straight across, no camber. Few with eased corners. At least the owners of the planes that I have seen thus evidently didn't bother to camber the blades.


engineer one":50rw7ok9 said:


> ...snip...as for the edge planing, in general you try to make the edge at 90 degrees to the face, to do that properly the plane face must be at 90 degrees to the wood face at which point i think flat is better, because it is easier to take one complete set of shavings along a piece than keep moving the plane across to account for the curved blade.


But see, it is better for you. And better for me. But that does not invalidate the practice of shaping the edge with a cambered blade. I've seen it done. That I cannot replicate it is my failing, not that act of using a cambered blade. 

I tried it to broaden my experience. Just like using a Gent's saw or a Japanese saw for cutting dovetails. I can't do it. I twist my wrist. I should say I did back when I tried it. I do like smaller saws for small scale work, so I'm going to hunt down a nice oldie Gent's saw (don't say it Alf... :roll: ) and buy it. Sharpen it up and give it another try. Pint being that just because I have not been able to use a Gent's saw accurately doesn't mean it cannot be done. 

And it doesn't mean I wouldn't recommend it for another person if they needed a saw and had the opportunity to purchanse one for joinery purposes. And I could help them learn how to use it whether or not I can.


engineer one":50rw7ok9 said:


> ...snip....
> what i am trying to get at is that we have recently spent a lot of time here and in magazines learning about tools being sharp, but the ideas all move forward, and people get entrenched in a viewpoint, and often ignore newer ideas. yet everyday there is a new brand of sharpening gizmo on the market.


Please don't confuse people who have found what works for them with people who scoff or reject out of hand new ways of sharpening. I'm not sure I've read that here. That there are new gizmos on the market nearly every day should only serve to illustrate many people struggle with sharpening and the companies making the stuff feed off that. (Ok, that and they know they can always sell to people who tend buy anything new.)

There are very few true advances in sharpening. It has and will remain at its most basic rubbing a steel something against a rock.

The few advances are in the material a stone is made from, as well as one true advance in a powered sharpening machine. Other than that, nothing is new.

Jigs come out all the time. Most are remakes of ones from the past. Some are so innovative I think the "inventors" have never sharpened something in their lives outside an office. People with experience can recognize these failings. So why try it? And why not tell someone asking about it on a public forum how we think it suffers?


engineer one":50rw7ok9 said:


> ...snip...
> as a beginner where do you start, and then where do you stop?
> surely it is time to have a standard starting off point for those with a little money and some enthusiasm, then steps up the ladder.
> 
> ...


As a beginner, where did you start and stop? It'll be different for everyone, or nearly so. There are no shortcuts. There can be no standards. People on the forums always try to keep budget in mind--_if the questioner will actually give it._

Paul, again, you are making a conclusion or a distinction where it doesn't belong. It isn't perseverence. And it isn't an issue of whether or not "it works." It is people that are the variable, not camber or eased corners on an iron. People. Plain and simple.

If a question like, "what is the best sharpening stone" is asked, it will get a variety of answers. I'll say Shaptons. Derek will say Kings. Alf will say oil stones. But the responders will usually ask about budget, past experience etc. By needing to know these things or simply taking the time to lay out various options, that should indicate there cannot be a standard. There are too many variables.


engineer one":50rw7ok9 said:


> ...snip...
> but i hope we have all learned a little more, and i thank you for the input.
> paul :wink: :lol:


I'm not sure anyone really _learned _anything from this exchange, Paul. Sorry. At least not something "new."

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (25 Sep 2005)

MikeW":2pamsjbc said:


> In fact, most of what we call bench planes I have ever seen where the irons have been undisturbed for years are straight across, no camber.


Interesting. I see a lot of cambered blades in old wooden planes - regional/international differences? Coincidence? Anyone care? 



MikeW":2pamsjbc said:


> so I'm going to hunt down a nice oldie Gent's saw (don't say it Alf... :roll: ) and buy it.


:-#



MikeW":2pamsjbc said:


> There are very few true advances in sharpening. It has and will remain at its most basic rubbing a steel something against a rock.


Sometimes involving water, if you're unlucky... :wink:



MikeW":2pamsjbc said:


> If a question like, "what is the best sharpening stone" is asked, it will get a variety of answers. I'll say Shaptons. Derek will say Kings. Alf will say oil stones.


Well actually I'd probably say "duck" first. :lol: But oilstones? Well probably not, actually. Certainly not alone anyway. But I digress.



MikeW":2pamsjbc said:


> engineer one":2pamsjbc said:
> 
> 
> > ...snip...
> ...


I have. But none of it to do with woodworking.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous (25 Sep 2005)

Midnight":2v3esvfl said:


> I built the shooting board...
> 
> In short... this system, my system, works within the limitations of my bench, my tools and my capabilities.... when it aint broke, why fix it...???



Can't argue with that mate :wink: Enjoy


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## MikeW (26 Sep 2005)

Alf":2rpw1vhx said:


> MikeW":2rpw1vhx said:
> 
> 
> > ...Snip...
> ...


Oh that's right...how's the paste working? Or, what are you using these days. Or are you using Derek's method of buying new blades? :lol: 

Mike


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## Alf (26 Sep 2005)

MikeW":13283b36 said:


> Or are you using Derek's method of buying new blades? :lol:


I tried that, but it turns out the pesky things _still_ need sharpening. I know, I was disgusted too. :evil: As for the paste, how should I know if it's working? Not done anything to need sharpening for ages.  Still it'll be a good test of whether you can leave it for a long time between uses and still use it I suppose. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (26 Sep 2005)

Alf":2742mo4c said:


> MikeW":2742mo4c said:
> 
> 
> > Or are you using Derek's method of buying new blades? :lol:
> ...


ROTFL...When I started buying LV / LN planes I always ordered spare blades. I learned real quick that if I skipped sharpening it was exactly twice the chore :lol: 

Have fun!

Mike


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## engineer one (28 Sep 2005)

mike w i have spent a couple of days thinking about your comments in particular as well as the others.
as usual , you are cogent and informative in your comments.

i must remember that i am but a lowly amateur woodworker, and cannot these days call myself a carpenter, but i love working in wood, and prefer to be able to work properly by hand, but am at the age where time is running even faster than me.

you were and are lucky to have had a grandfather and father who taught you to sharpen. few of my acquaintances have been so. the newest carpenter i know is my mates 22 year old, and his dad is a music teacher, so no sharpening knowledge there.

anyway it does worry me that in your country people have gone to court to sue a company for selling them hot coffee, and now i have to have 
travel cups which say "this is hot and may burn you" DOH!!!  #-o 

i feel that very soon some of the older established and more accountant run companies may well start to sell planes and chisels firstly with blunt blades in case someone uses them to cut things, and then later the blades will be separate. don't laugh it is no different from hot coffee. that is no dig at you , but there is this dichotomy in america, where common sense is sometimes lacking.

i was looking for a realistic answer to curved blades, what i have found is that practice is what seems to make people use them, they either can or can't get on with them. 

in the example mentioned of planing the edge, particularly one at less than 90 degrees, i cannot see how a curved blade makes it easier to cut a flat square edge. whilst this may not matter for an edge which is jointed for boards to join together, but when the edge is the viewed part of the plank, then surely a curved blade will chomp away a considerable part of the section.

as for plane tracks, i believe that some relief of the edges will help this, but also planing as if you were painting has some benefits too. ie. overlap your strokes. if you are finishing, then the wafer thin strips should not leave any tracks. 

i have learnt a bunch, mainly that there is no right or wrong way, only what works for each person, and what they are comfortable with.
i know mike that you work mainly by hand, and you also teach both of which i find admirable. you also find time to talk here and help us learn too, which is really nice. you appear to be very open minded, but many contributors seem too pedantic.

it is obvious that learning to sharpen in the first place is a chore, but you are right it does get easier. however with so many conflicting views i think that it is important to give the newcomers an agreed starting point, and that does not seem to happen now.

each author has a different view, and approach to teaching it, but forget often that they had to start somewhere and have only got to their present skill by practice and experimenting. a novice needs to be given the confidence that wherever they start, it will get better and more effective.

now what i need to learn, is how to put the highlighted comments into a posting. 

all the best 
paul  :


----------



## Midnight (28 Sep 2005)

> now what i need to learn, is how to put the highlighted comments into a posting.



dead easy... 

use your mouse to highlight the line(s) you want to copy... right click and copy said lines... paste them into your post... re-highlight them before hitting the "Quote" button above the message window...

gotta be blonde proof before I can manage..


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## MikeW (28 Sep 2005)

No problem Paul.

And to tell the truth, I couldn't frame a house or build a porch to save my soul if it wasn't for the people who help me. I don't know why I can't get understand building on that scale, but I cannot.

Don't even get me started on electric things. Scares me.

As for my grandfather, oh how I miss him. The quit whittling at a lake high in the mountains in Washington state. Or working in his basement shop. And, his patience with me. His hand on mine helping me to guide my first carving using his tools. Yup. I count myself extremely fortunate.



> i have learnt a bunch, mainly that there is no right or wrong way, only what works for each person, and what they are comfortable with.



This is the main truth I think most here try to communicate. It is, as I do, usually within the context of "here's what I do." This is because it is natural to teach what is known or most familiar. The great thing, I think, about these forums is so many more voices can be heard than by a single book.

But maybe therein lies part of the problem, too. Many more options. More choices. Perhaps for some it is either a blessing or a curse., perhaps it is both. I consider it a blessing.

It is sometimes best to walk away. To, as you did, think about the advice and quietly try those things. Often you will find one which just works for you. Perhaps you will not--but in turn find a way to accomplish the task at hand "on your own."



> a novice needs to be given the confidence that wherever they start, it will get better and more effective.



And so it will. It still does for me.

Take care,

Mike


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## engineer one (28 Sep 2005)

mike w


> It is sometimes best to walk away. To, as you did, think about the advice and quietly try those things. Often you will find one which just works for you. Perhaps you will not--but in turn find a way to accomplish the task at hand "on your own."
> 
> you are right but how the bloody hell do i walk quietly away with all my planes and chisels?? now i have to build a mobile till. oh the dream jobs we give ourselves.
> 
> ...


----------



## bugbear (28 Sep 2005)

> in the example mentioned of planing the edge, particularly one at less than 90 degrees, i cannot see how a curved blade makes it easier to cut a flat square edge.









Because a (subtly) curved blade in a plane allows one to cut a perfectly controlled tapered shaving. If the plane is held central there is no taper (a slightly hollow cut, see below). Removal of tapered shavings under full control allows an edge to be made square.



> whilst this may not matter for an edge which is jointed for boards to join together, but when the edge is the viewed part of the plank, then surely a curved blade will chomp away a considerable part of the section.



I don't think you have appreciated the appropriate degree of curvature for this process. The sagitta is on the order of 4-5 thou.

BugBear


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## Jake (28 Sep 2005)

engineer one":2p5mqqmv said:


> anyway it does worry me that in your country people have gone to court to sue a company for selling them hot coffee, and now i have to have
> travel cups which say "this is hot and may burn you" DOH!!!  #-o
> 
> i feel that very soon some of the older established and more accountant run companies may well start to sell planes and chisels firstly with blunt blades in case someone uses them to cut things, and then later the blades will be separate. don't laugh it is no different from hot coffee. that is no dig at you , but there is this dichotomy in america, where common sense is sometimes lacking.



http://www.atla.org/pressroom/FACTS/fri ... ecase.aspx


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## Alf (28 Sep 2005)

bugbear":1yooxhr8 said:


> > whilst this may not matter for an edge which is jointed for boards to join together, but when the edge is the viewed part of the plank, then surely a curved blade will chomp away a considerable part of the section.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you have appreciated the appropriate degree of curvature for this process. The sagitta is on the order of 4-5 thou.


Beat me to it, BB. To translate, what BB means is the curve is _very slight_. :wink:

Something also got swallowed up in other things like edge jointing earlier, that is the practice of just "knocking off" the corners to avoid the tracks. It's a widely used method; I have read some claims that you theoretically could get tear-out at the side of the blade, but in practice I don't know and I can't believe it's an issue in the real world. I find the benefit of using a camber instead is I can switch between a slightly rougher cut, edge jointing and smoothing all with the same blade in the same plane. May not be good practice, but handy when you only have a limited kit available, and once you get in the habit it tends to stick.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (28 Sep 2005)

I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here  :
This thread is rediculous! 
Cutting tool edges come in all kinds of shapes. Get used to that concept. Bench planes (or leveling planes if you prefer) should have cambered blades, period. No exceptions. The camber or sagitta (thanks, bugbear) can range from around 1/8" to maybe .001". This doesn't make woodworking harder or waste time time tuning tools. It makes it faster and easier. The straighter across the blade is, the more highly tuned the plane must be to work. Would you use only 400 grit sandpaper because the concept of having multiple grits is too scary?
Joint cutting planes (jointers, rabbets, dados, tongue & groove, etc) should have straight edges.
Molding planes have curvy edges. How about that? No need to shy away.
If you are going to woodwork with handtools you will need to learn to sharpen all kinds of edges. Gouges, carving tools, auger bits, saws, et. al.
It is just a necessary chore.


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## Philly (28 Sep 2005)

Very good, Roger!
Should I do my best " insulted by purist" impersonation? :lol: :lol: 
Cheers
Philly :wink:


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## MikeW (28 Sep 2005)

Roger Nixon":3dsfvbse said:


> I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here  :
> This thread is rediculous!


Ridiculous to you obviously. Maybe to others as well. Thank you for an attempt at invalidating both Paul's questioning and my and others' attempts at helping. 


Roger Nixon":3dsfvbse said:


> Cutting tool edges come in all kinds of shapes. Get used to that concept. Bench planes (or leveling planes if you prefer) should have cambered blades, period. No exceptions.


Really? Guess I've done it wrong since, well, my entire hand planing life. Thank you for that bit of absolutism. I must run out to the shop and change 20 or 30 blades to comply.


Roger Nixon":3dsfvbse said:


> Molding planes have curvy edges. How about that? No need to shy away.


So? Aren't they suppose to? Oops, that's right. My bench planes have to as well.


Roger Nixon":3dsfvbse said:


> If you are going to woodwork with handtools you will need to learn to sharpen all kinds of edges. Gouges, carving tools, auger bits, saws, et. al. It is just a necessary chore.


Guess that's obvious.

Folks, while we obviously have sharpening disagreements, the above is a bit pompous and assuming. Neither does it help someone new to all this--regardless of how questioning they are, or how they phrase the questions.

For many, they feel intimidated and seek to fully understanmd before acting or attempting something that seems wrong or strange. Others just try without reason. Neither accomplishes what they desire. It takes time. Trial. Perseverance. Sometimes, it takes a person what appears to some to be obstinance or being argumentitive. Some can phrase questions better than others.

Big freaking deal. Answer don't answer. But at least try to be constructive in your reply.

I'm not good around people and should not have been let out of my cage this morning. Guess I'll go back to work with my imperfectly shaped plane blades.

Mike
the (mainly) straight blader who doesn't know better.


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## Alf (28 Sep 2005)

Roger Nixon":23dzds1a said:


> I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here  :
> This thread is rediculous!


Bet Adam can spell ridiculous though :wink:



Roger Nixon":23dzds1a said:


> The camber or sagitta (thanks, bugbear)


Heavens, don't thank him or we'll need a forum dictionary by the end of the week! :lol:



Roger Nixon":23dzds1a said:


> Joint cutting planes (jointers, rabbets, dados, tongue & groove, etc) should have straight edges.


That's one of those "spot the odd one out" things isn't it, Roger? Thought I wouldn't notice eh? 



Roger Nixon":23dzds1a said:


> It is just a necessary chore.


That I can agree with 

Right Mike, back in your cage. Everyone take a big deep breath and count to 25 - slowly. Okay, done? 

Right, I know I'm the first to get overly enthusiastic in supporting a method I've found works for me, and I apologise for it if I get all run away with sometimes. S'only 'cos it seems to me that I'm onto a Good Thing and want others to share in this same Good Thing, but nevertheless, no excuse for getting dictatorial about it, if I do. Hopefully I _usually_ manage to cope when someone doesn't share my joy in it. 9 times out of 10 anyway. 8 at the outside...  Hopefully so can everyone else. So please play nice, chaps. [-X :wink:

Cheers, Alf

Who was actually gonna try the whole straight edge for jointing thing on the BUT, 'cept there was no jointer fence... #-o


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## Anonymous (28 Sep 2005)

MikeW":u4os42zf said:


> Roger Nixon":u4os42zf said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here  :
> ...



Mike, Mike, calm down. :lol: 
I had hoped the smiley at the beginning of the post would alert everyone that the rest of the post was facetious. I thought most here, including you since I see you on WoodCentral, would recognize my mimicry of Adam's agressive style.
Rest assured I am not criticizing your or anyone else's methods. My apologies it seemed that way. 
The attempted point of my post is that no one should be intimidated by sharpening, it is merely a necessary part of woodworking and that camber is just one of many configurations a woodworker will encounter.


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## engineer one (28 Sep 2005)

and there was me trying to get out of this thread without too much damage.  
and i thought passion was dead in this world.

i agree alf passing on something new you have found and like is good 
news, but my concerns are still the same, for new guys,like the one asking which LV or LN planes to have his family buy, all that investment , and 
no clear answer about sharpening.

that was always the gist of my query. i only went to buy some wood, and decided to talk to someone who was demonstrating. nearly had the wife leave me i was gone so long,( i know is that good or bad??)

as i have said before, too many people are backing their own method without thinking about the impact both mentally and financially on others.
when starting out, you want sharpish tools, and the ability to understand when they get less sharp, and the best method to keep them sharp for longer. 
that with a plane is way before the argument about setting the blade and throat properly.

back to the cages guys, and lets think about this sensibly.
paul
may all you troubles be plane sailing. :lol:


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## Anonymous (28 Sep 2005)

engineer one":264d3k9l said:


> i can understand when planes were all of wood, (except blade) then having a curve was useful for the average woodworker, since it meant that adjustments were easier.



The real reason for curved blades is to make wood removal quicker. The more camber, the quicker the removal and the rougher the surface. The less camber, the slower the removal and flatter the surface. It is the common principle of working from coarse to fine. 



> wood solid wood does not allow for real engineering standards, it moves, so why worry about accuracy of microns when taking off shavings, too little clearance and the draw won't open or the cabinet will distort due to bad design.



The reason for those highly tuned planes is not to dimension wood to precise tolerances it is to avoid tearout. Sometimes only extremely light cuts can be taken without ruining the wood's surface. 



> i think many people have taken the sharpening story too far, and are in danger of overemphasizing the value of it. if your plane is easy to push and you get a reasonably flat surface, should that not be enough.
> the old cabinet makers would i think laugh at our over concern for
> flatness.



I agree too much is written about it (I could have done a few blades in the time it took to write this) but I don't know that it can be overemphasized. It takes time to learn what degree of sharpness is sharp enough for the task at hand. Someday you will be planing a surface that is very nearly finished and will tear out a chunk (we all do). Then you will wish you had taken the time to have changed to a fresh finely honed blade. It would have saved you a lot of time and work.



> my recent experience suggests that sharpening should work as follows,
> use a powered wheel to get your bevel back quickly, i use a tormek,
> then flatten the back on a stone, or diamond surface, and the work the bevel to get a good cutting edge with a honing guide and end up with a japanese stone, these moves don't take too long and allow you to be as sharp as you want.



That is a reasonable method. The back has to be flattened only once unless it gets damaged somehow. The bevel has to be re-established only after repeated honings or the blade gets nicked. Most of the time blades just have to be honed and nearly everyone has a method that takes very little time.

[/quote]


----------



## Frank D. (28 Sep 2005)

This has been quite a thread! As much about sharpening as teaching it. I feel a little qualitfied to respond since I am a teacher, and I also write about sharpening for beginners. Not that I'm an expert--far from it--but there are so few resources about sharpening in French either in books or on the net, I felt compelled to write an article on it for a French-language web site. I also hand out the article when I give seminars on sharpening to raise money for the same site. 
So enough of where I come from, my article turned out to be around 30 pages long, including a few drawings and pics, really aimed at those who know next to nothing. In the whole article I made maybe 2 fleeting references to camber. I thought it would complicate things uselessly, beginners have other things to worry about like blade geometry (bevels), cutting geometry, sharpening materials, and actually getting an good edge. I figure that those 2 fleeting references to camber will probably go unnoticed to most. They will have to buy stones, think about how the blade works, and practice sharpening their blades. If they actually manage to start planing wood, they might eventually notice track marks, or find that their plane is only good at taking thin shavings, or whatever. That's when a light might go on, and hopefully they'll start asking questions. At this point, when they reread my text for the seventh time, they will probably notice or remember what I said about camber, and they'll start to understand why it might be a good thing. But before this I personally don't see the use of bogging them down with info. Get them up and running, then let them think about how they can do better, or differently. 
2¢
Frank


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## Anonymous (29 Sep 2005)

That is a good point, Frank. Even though almost every author of handtool woodworking talks about blade camber, it went over my head for years. Only when I got serious about old tools and old methods did the light go on.


----------



## Anonymous (29 Sep 2005)

Thanks Bugbear, that image tells all :wink:


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## bugbear (29 Sep 2005)

I think part of the confusion (and consequent headed disagreement) is that the word "planing" means whatvere is in the head of the person saying it.

Planing, even if we're restricting it to bench planes, covers everything from getting paint off a board you're recycling (yes, I've done this), making a damp door fit a frame, rough stock preparation, to creating a surface on tricky grain that is finish-ready.

And, yes, all these tasks have different blade-edge requirment, each of which can be achieved in different way.

Unless everybody is careful to be clear about the context in which they're offering opinions, we're not communicating.

BugBear


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## Alf (29 Sep 2005)

bugbear":1he03ajb said:


> Unless everybody is careful to be clear about the context in which they're offering opinions, we're not communicating.


Which is when we get back to crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's which all too often turns even the most simple reply into an essay. I think you have to take everyone's response in the context of their previous posts, and if that doesn't tell you enough, ask for clarification on the context. And if that isn't enough just go and try it and see for yourself. 

Actually it all boils down to seeeing for yourself anyway, so we might as well close down this forum right now... :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (29 Sep 2005)

Alf":3c19yld6 said:


> ...Actually it all boils down to seeeing for yourself anyway, so we might as well close down this forum right now... :lol:
> Cheers, Alf


Course, we don't know what we don't know. :lol: 

And if we don't know what to seee <g> for ourselves...gosh, my head is starting to hurt.

Mike


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## Alf (29 Sep 2005)

MikeW":15ihkrd7 said:


> seee <g>


Lazzzzzzzzzy typing finger  :lol:


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## MikeW (29 Sep 2005)

> Lazzzzzzzzzy typing finger


That's OK. My laptop's 'M' key is acting up. I can actually hit the space bar firmly enough to make it type it.

Makes proof reading a pain.

Mike


----------



## Anonymous (29 Sep 2005)

bugbear":1zym9jw8 said:


> I think part of the confusion (and consequent headed disagreement) is that the word "planing" means whatvere is in the head of the person saying it.
> 
> Planing, even if we're restricting it to bench planes, covers everything from getting paint off a board you're recycling (yes, I've done this), making a damp door fit a frame, rough stock preparation, to creating a surface on tricky grain that is finish-ready.
> 
> BugBear



I'm kind of partial to Garrett Hack's method of not including smoothing (or "polishing" for an older term) planes in the bench plane catagory. Thus my Steve Knight coffin smoother (straight blade with clipped corners) doesn't violate the bench plane = cambered blade rule. :lol:


----------



## engineer one (29 Sep 2005)

one thing i missed in all the comments was the guy who said he could plane an 8ft length of timber by hand.
given how tall i am, about 5.10. i cannot see me being able to be sure of planing an unsupported board of more than about 4 feet using the standard method of weight transfer. is it really easy to move your feet along, and still ensure that you keep the same pressure on the plane body to ensure that it is straight. i realise that a jack can be at least 24 in long, but you still have a long sweep where i find it difficult to see how we get to keep the transfer right.
not a criticism, more a quest for the knowledge.
not least since i can see it working on a shooting board.

paul :?


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## Frank D. (30 Sep 2005)

Hi engineer one, 
This has less to do with a curved blade but I'll bite and be the one who says he can plane a long board. All it takes is a little fancy footwork, small steps, it's really not too hard (I do this even with 4-foot boards). I don,t know if you're into dancing (salsa, waltz, rumba..) but it's no harder. Like any skill it just takes a little practice. Downwards pressure is not so critical as to make it that hard (there canbe slight variation, and you shouldn't have to push down on a plane much anyways). AS long as the board is reasonably well supported you shouldn't have problems associated with flex; narrower boards need more support.
Here's a pic of me edge-jointing an 11-foot board. This board was a little too wide to prop up on my horses (made it too high for comfort), so it made it a little more complicated, but I still managed to walk the plane across without too much difficulty:






Here's my regular setup when I work outside for edge jointing big boards:






I believe IIRC Jeff Gorman talks about walking with the plane on his site.
Frank


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 Sep 2005)

> i cannot see me being able to be sure of planing an unsupported board of more than about 4 feet using the standard method of weight transfer.



Hi E1

Frank's pics and description was first class. However, should you still be coincerned about your ability to edge joint a long board, that is, maintain an edge square to a side, then realise that jointer guides are available, and tailor-made for this situation.

LV have brought out one that is dedicated to the LV BU Jointer. I don't have one but I do have the granddaddy of these, the Stanley #386. The #386 has the advantage of variable geometry, while the LV version (I believe, not actually seen one in the flesh) is a fixed 90 degrees.

Here is the #386 attached to the LV BUJ:






I tend to use it more on a Stanley #5 1/2:






The one point that must be made in this regard is that blades have to be straight, not radiused, since the fence adjusts the plane to cut at one side.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Chris Knight (30 Sep 2005)

Here's another long (8 feet) board being jointed. The lighter coloured narrow board on top is my long straight edge - also planed in a similar manner.


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## Alf (30 Sep 2005)

It's like the answer to the guy asking how to get to Carnegie Hall. "Practice, practice, practice". 

Chris, that's an indecent picture to show someone who's maximum plank width is about 8".  

Cheers, Alf


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## trevtheturner (30 Sep 2005)

And as he's jointing that board, Alf, he probably has at least another one of them! :wink: :lol: :lol: 

Cheers,

Trev.


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## bugbear (30 Sep 2005)

> I tend to use it more on a Stanley #5 1/2:



Nice tote tip repair - you or a previous owner?

BugBear


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 Sep 2005)

> Nice tote tip repair - you or a previous owner?



Hi BB

My repair. I decided to do it in a contrasting timber at the time as a reminder of the terrible condition the plane was in when I rescued it.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Chris Knight (30 Sep 2005)

Alf":2uuydl3f said:


> Chris, that's an indecent picture to show someone who's maximum plank width is about 8".



I know, I know - can't find 'em like that myself anymore


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## Anonymous (30 Sep 2005)

Frank & Derek, those are some fine posts!
Question for Derek: How did you check your long straightedge? I've made shorter ones by comparing 3 of them until they all match but I'd like to avoid that much work for an 8 footer I need. :lol:


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 Sep 2005)

> Question for Derek: How did you check your long straightedge?



Sorry Roger, the 8 foot straightedge was Chris'.

Anyway, in my case, I use my 8 foot Starrett combination square. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## engineer one (30 Sep 2005)

so what it boils down to is you have to do the chuck berry duck walk,
and show your knees to the public.is that worse than builders bum.
mind you i do worry about your back working that low to the ground in the first picture.

seriously my hat is doffed to you guys. so much skill and so little time.

all we need now is wider boards to work with.

thanks again to everybody for the information and the news, makes it all worthwhile.
paul
may all your shavings be plane :wink:


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## Alf (30 Sep 2005)

trevtheturner":du5u0j9x said:


> And as he's jointing that board, Alf, he probably has at least another one of them! :wink: :lol: :lol:


Yes, thanks for pointing that out, Trev. :roll: ](*,) 



Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I use my 8 foot Starrett combination square.


Do what?! :shock: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (30 Sep 2005)

> I know, I know - can't find 'em like that myself anymore



I guess now's not the time t say I canna move for the bl&%dy things..???

16 off 9ft+ boards kept in the den cos I canna keep em in the shop and work in there too....

<le sigh..

such hardships...


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## Anonymous (5 Oct 2005)

Anyone read Odate's latest article in PW on how to use 500 US dollars worth of cambered diamond plates to put .0025" radius on your finishing blades! Essential kit for sure.

I do get nervous when I hear people recomending diamond plates for contouring stones, since that has always been fatal with previous diamond stones I have owned. The diamonds are tough, but the bonds get washed away with the stone paste. Maybe they have that problem beat?

I don't think the idea that wooden planes need cambered irons because they don't have lateral adjustment is accurate. You can make wooden planes with as much lateral adjustment as you want, though if you know how to sharpen, why would you need it?


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## engineer one (5 Oct 2005)

i too read about the cambered stones, and the whole article. still not sure the so called science makes sense, but hey you can only try.
as for my comment about wooden planes, what i was saying was that 
early ones were such because of the lack of adjustment.
but then i have still not properly figured out how to adjust my 
newer, but wooden planes.
paul ](*,)


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## Anonymous (6 Oct 2005)

Your right that you can't as easily adjust them, but if that was a recognized problem back when they were the only choice, one could have tapered the blade or changed channel shape. My japanese planes use tapered blades, and on the coarser models you can adjust the angle quite a bit. A plane where the wedge is separate offers all kinds of adjustment potential. One of the things I like about wooden planes (more mater of the format than the material in this case). Is that at their simplest, say the Japanese models, you just drop the blade in, give them a tap, and everything is where it should be. You don't need to adjust them.


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## engineer one (6 Oct 2005)

peter
must say i think you are wrong to relate japanese planes to so called
european ones. because of the pull stroke, the whole technology
and layout is different.

tapping planes to get them right as you have to with european wooden ones is a pain.

paul :wink:


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## Philly (6 Oct 2005)

Paul
Gotta disagree with you there-how is a pulling plane different to a pushing plane?? Wooden body, cutting iron, breaker/wedge. Same thing.
Think the curved iron thing is making you think too hard! :wink: 
Cheers
Philly


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## engineer one (7 Oct 2005)

maybe i am thinking too hard, but actually have never seen a japanese plane in the wood, so do not know how the blades come from the 
manufacturer.

but in view of how a pull saw works compared with a push one, 
i have to figure the pull plane would be similarly different.

knew i should not have started this!!!!!!!!!!!!! (hammer) 
paul


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## simuk (9 Oct 2005)

> knew i should not have started this!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> paul



No carry on paul, i am looking forward to the replies


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## Anonymous (10 Oct 2005)

The pull plane is different from push. Body mechanics are different. The thing I notice most, though, is the anchor effect. The power hand is in front of the blade not behind, and so the balde self-sets like an anchor, which is why the lighter the better is the maxim for a pull plane. The planes just don't stutter. I once used the same plane to do all the planing on a trimaran I was building. Plywood, spruce, fiberglass. It took a long time, but eventually the plane blade got real dull. I just wacked the blade out further, and it would keep cutting even when hugely dull. When it got back to home base I had to both sharpen it, and re-sole it.


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## bugbear (11 Oct 2005)

> The power hand is in front of the blade not behind, and so the blade self-sets like an anchor,



I'm sorry. I don't understand that at all.

Could you expand?

BugBear


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## Anonymous (13 Oct 2005)

There are one handed planes of both type. Say block planes. The standard euro block plane is gripped behind the edge, the standard Japanese one is gripped in front. When you pull the Japanese plane from in front of the edge, the edge catches just as an anchor does, and wants to work deeper, by geometry, not weight or technique. Euro planes have the power behind the edge, they want to polevault out of the cut, causing chatter. We add weight, and perfect our techniques.

I use both types in the shop. Each will work perfectly well. I just recently finished a jack plane that is a bit like a clark and Williams, but has an old Lee valley japanese blade in it. It is part of a set of three jacks I am fooling with

None of this has anything to do with adjusting blades. Japanese blades aren't any easier to tap straight than any other. They have the advantage of just dropping in place perfectly, so no adjustment is required. And once you have the skill to cut the plane beds like that, you have long since stopped worrying about lesser things.


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