# Scrub Plane - Too specialist?



## mr (10 May 2006)

Is a scrub plane too specialist an investment? Can the same job be done with other planes? Im looking at a first attempt at preparing stock for a project , having always used PAR before, I don't have a planer thicknesser nor much interest in buying one truth be told. So casting around it appears that a scrub plane will help. I will probably need to remove in the region of 10 mm from board surfaces to get into the right area thickness wise before moving on the next set of weapons. 
My alternatives are currently a stanley 4 and a Record 4 /12 which arent going to be that much help in the task at hand I wouldnt have thought and possibly a low angle jack which might be more helpful. Thicknessing is obviously something Im going to do a fair amount of If I buy non par wood and Im tending to think that buying a scrub plane might be useful but then if something like the jack will do the same job praps the pennies are better spent elsewhere. Any thoughts? 
Cheers Mike


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## Colin C (10 May 2006)

Hi Mike 
If you dont want to get a planer then a scrub plane is one option or an electric plane will also do the job and not as much hard work ( or as much fun seeing the big shavings come off )
Since you are going to do this by hand you will need a jointer or a jack plane as well.
Try Ebay of a scrub plane if you still want one and the jack /jointer from there too, as the new stanley/ record one's are rubbish ( as you will know from here)
I hope that helps


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## Alf (10 May 2006)

A nice, cheap wooden jack would do the job nicely - s'what they live for.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Colin C (10 May 2006)

Alf beat me to it  
I know someone that has a wooden jack and jointer for sale that are in good nik, you can also make the jack a scrub plane  ( its me with the two planes, I will post pic if you are intrested)


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## Alf (10 May 2006)

_Everyone_ and their Aunt Lillian have a wooden jack and jointer to sell. :lol: Just make the jack a "proper" jack and it's virtually a scrub, see?

Cheers, Alf


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## Corset (10 May 2006)

I am no expert but... I ahve a scrub plane and i have been preparing all my wood by hand including a massive piece of oak. The scrub is great and very easy to control. The electric hand planer is naff it does not correct the wind etc and it is all too easy to get a ridge or linkup mark when using a long piece of timber.
I havn't used a tweaked jack but the veritas scrub is amazing and has saved me so much time and effort and i would be lost without it. It is all too easy to flatten a boad with it. It is the best 80 quid i spent apart from the 200 quid for the bevel up jointer i just got from canada in the post. Together they are greeeat


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## George_N (10 May 2006)

You can also save money by cancelling your gym membership. Thicknessing with a scrub plane will give you a pretty good work-out. 
Seriously though, how practical is it for a relative novice like me to buy rough-sawn timber and get close to the finish quality of a planer/thicknesser by using a combination of scrub/jack/smoother/jointer planes? Is it just practice, practice, practice and "serve your apprenticeship"? Maybe if you're impatient, like me, buying a mix of PAR and rough-sawn is the way to go, so I can practice preparing stock and also get on with actually making things.

cheers

George


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## Colin C (10 May 2006)

Its practice, practice, practice and also being pointed in the right direction, does make a BIG difference ( which you will get on here ), plus some wineding stick will also help.


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## bugbear (10 May 2006)

Alf":16vtnr2c said:


> _Everyone_ and their Aunt Lillian have a wooden jack and jointer to sell. :lol: Just make the jack a "proper" jack and it's virtually a scrub, see?
> 
> Cheers, Alf



You've got that all wrong. It's done like this.

Hmm. Quite similar, really. Jack's just get scrubbier, No one is quite sure when a "scrubby jack" becomes a "scrub".

BugBear


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## Anonymous (10 May 2006)

bugbear":143v0pi4 said:


> Jack's just get scrubbier, No one is quite sure when a "scrubby jack" becomes a "scrub".
> 
> BugBear



Scrubs are shorter (<11"+/-) and blades are narrower (< 1 1/2"). 
My scrub is very different from my wood or metal "scrubby jacks" .
That is my story and I'm sticking to it. :lol:


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## Colin C (10 May 2006)

From what I have known Roger Nixon is right as I has a scrub plane to but for me it is used for getting new pieces of wood to match the old.


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## Frank D. (10 May 2006)

My scrub plane gathers dust most of the time since I set up a jack with a cambered blade. I agree with Chris Schwarz who once said that a scrub is more of a carpenter's tool (that's the only thing I still use it for), and a jack for cabinetmakers. We rarely have to take off 10 or 15mm of wood on the face of a board, most of the wood we buy is dressed fairly close to final thickness. Unless you plan on using 25mm-thick, twisted, rough-sawn boards to get 12mm final thickness without using a bandsaw, a jack will work very quickly without being too aggressive. My jack has a camber of about 2 or 3mm. I use an old Stanley and it works fine, no need for more. The extra length also lets you conserve flatness more easily.
2p


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 May 2006)

Hi Mike

I use a scrub plane for all flattening and thicknessing. Depending on the type of wood and its width, I am able to choose from about 4 or 5 planes.

As a rule of thumb, as the wood gets harder I prefer a heavier plane. For wide and hard boards I will turn to a Stanley #5 1/2 with a strongly radiused blade. The extra heft of this plane provides the momentum to plough through hard Jarrah. For medium sized hardwood boards the LV Scrub is the one for me. In fact, if I were to own just one scrub plane, then this would be it. 

See http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/theLeeValleyScrubPlane/index.asp

For a more delicate touch, or with soft woods, the Stanley #40 works very well. Ditto a heavily radiused Stanley #3 (which has the advantage of setting blade projection). These are light planes and tend to skip on hard woods. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Mittlefehldt (10 May 2006)

I have been considering the possibility of my next purchase being a scrub plane. My local purveyor of wood brings it in rough and will plane it four sides for .50 cents a board foot Canadian. Or I could buy it rough and do it myself, (there's a concept) 

I currently have two wooden jointers with decent irons but of course wider mouths, I wonder if maybe they would simply be too big a plane to use as a scrub?

That or I will save my pennies and buy the Lee Valley one from the local store, decisions, decisions.


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## mr (10 May 2006)

OH dear
MUch input (thanks all) and still no closer a decision. Was thinking that 10 mm or so was a lot to take off by hand but it appears that I cant get closer to the required thickness from the likes of SL hardwoods (no one closer to home seems to be able to help with the right thicknesses etc). Hence thinking I might use a scrub. THough I can see the point about using a wooden jack with a suitable blade and my bank manager agrees. I do have an old woody jointer fore plane (17inches) so that might be worth a go with a cambered blade. Its about time it had a birthday. Its an unsettling thought really that I might be about to throw many beer vouchers at something (the wood) that Im then going to turn into scraps. Still I spose Ive got to get on the learning curve at some point rather than rely on par which isnt very productive really. 
Thanks all for your input.


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## Philly (10 May 2006)

Mike
Sorry, a bit late getting here. A scrub?
As other knowledgable folk here have said, the scrub and the "jack" do the same job. If you have a cheap #5 lying around, open the mouth right up and curve the blade-voila! You can have a go and see if you like it.
Personally, I bought the Veritas scrub and I don't regret it at all. It is such FUN to use, decimating boards at a fantastic rate. It certainly will do the job you require. Have you seen Rob Cosman's DVD "Rough to ready"?? He use's only hand tools to prepare and thickness stock-the scrub comes out a lot! :wink: 
So, my 2p worth. If you aren't going for a powered thicknesser a metal scrub (let's face it, off the shelf there is a choice of two) will be a good friend to you.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Scrit (10 May 2006)

mr":3exiesiv said:


> Was thinking that 10 mm or so was a lot to take off by hand but it appears that I cant get closer to the required thickness from the likes of SL hardwoods.


3/8ths (OK, 10mm) - you'll have muscles like Garth! Have you thought about going the whole hog and getting/making a frame saw for ripping to approximate size and then applying the scrub plane. It will probably be a lot less effort. If you look around you can pick up a Bismarck plane (i.e. a horned scrub plane) which even Marples used to make. Last time I saw one it had the asking price of £4.00 on it.

If I didn't have a static machine I'd rough with a power planer then finish with a jack and jointer. It doesn't matter if the power planer tramlines the surface as you're going to hand finish and I can and do handle wind with a power planer at times, it just takes a light touch.

Personally I'll stick to the band saw, power planer and over and under (planer/thicknesser) but I was made to go through the hand tool bit a long time ago and it builds........ well, exhaustion. Plus a bit of understanding.

Scrit


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## jasonB (10 May 2006)

mr":3fr0038u said:


> appears that I cant get closer to the required thickness from the likes of SL hardwoods (no one closer to home seems to be able to help with the right thicknesses etc)..



What thickness do you want to end up with? SLH will prepare to whatever you need and even put it through their massive thickness sander, just because the thickness is not on the site does not mean they don't do it. If you still want it sawn they have a nice big TCT band resaw as well  

Jason


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## Chris Knight (10 May 2006)

Personally, I wouldn't spend any money on a scrub. Take any ratty old plane, put a curve in the blade and you are good to go - mine is an old Millers Falls No 9 smoother. Aim to make the curve such that a shaving is about an inch and a quarter wide and one sixteenth to eighth of an inch thick - you can do the same with a carving gouge and a mallet -seriously! - but that requires a lot more skill.

I would and did spend money on a handheld electric planer, a Bosch. It is a very useful tool and I usually take my rough sawn boards straight down to a rough planed finish with this thing so that I can see what the grain is doing before I choose boards for my projects. It's no substitute for proper hand planing or a planer/thicknesser but it sure saves sore arms!


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## Colin C (10 May 2006)

It is good to know that i am not the only one that sees an handheld electric planer as a good idea


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## Chris Knight (10 May 2006)

Colin,
Great minds and all that..


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## Scrit (10 May 2006)

Colin C":3njwyzlr said:


> It is good to know that i am not the only one that sees an handheld electric planer as a good idea


A comment like that might be taken a sacreledge over here. Careful now! :wink: 

Scrit


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## mr (10 May 2006)

THe electric planer idea hadnt even occured to me but Ill certainly give it some thought. It would probably save my bench as well. Im convinced that If I let go with a scrub the bench will fall to pieces anyway. It needs some strengthening I think.


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## Shady (10 May 2006)

If the bench ain't tough enough, any hand planing will be a PITA.... The bench is part and parcel of effective hand planing, and it must be robust enough to cope with a good battering if you want to go that route...


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## Colin C (10 May 2006)

:shock: well I was shot down when I said  
(muttering its my excuse and I am sticking to it [-( ) :wink:


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## mr (10 May 2006)

Colin C":35lmjuwv said:


> :shock: well I was shot down when I said



Not by me  



Shady":35lmjuwv said:


> If the bench ain't tough enough, any hand planing will be a PITA....


Yes My bench is fairly hefty, nice solid top but some racking has started to creep in under planing. Ive been meaning to get the top off and get the base reinforced but fighting shy cos of the weight of the top. 12 strips of 2 x 4 at 8 foot apiece its almost a two man lift. 

Theres been plenty of food for thought here so thanks all once again.


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## JesseM (10 May 2006)

mr":2bnvvpfo said:


> THe electric planer idea hadnt even occured to me but Ill certainly give it some thought. It would probably save my bench as well. Im convinced that If I let go with a scrub the bench will fall to pieces anyway. It needs some strengthening I think.


I recently added some crossbars on both ends of bench and it dramatically improved the racking. I just used 2x6 pine boards and some 1/4" bolts. I'm gonna build a real bench eventually, but I do not have the room at the moment. This was just a quick fix to make it somewhat usable.


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## Scrit (11 May 2006)

JesseM":29krte9a said:


> I recently added some crossbars on both ends of bench and it dramatically improved the racking. I just used 2x6 pine boards and some 1/4" bolts. I'm gonna build a real bench eventually, but I do not have the room at the moment. This was just a quick fix to make it somewhat usable.


I did a double take when I read that, thought you were about to write something like _"and next week I'm adding a Shimano gear set and a bell to the handlebars....."_ then I realised - crossbars = braces  . I must be getting tired, Time for bed.....

Scrit


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## JesseM (11 May 2006)

Scrit":30jm3wxk said:


> I did a double take when I read that, thought you were about to write something like _"and next week I'm adding a Shimano gear set and a bell to the handlebars....."_ then I realised - crossbars = braces  . I must be getting tired, Time for bed.....
> 
> Scrit


Braces was the word I was trying to think of  I think it time for me to go to bed.


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## bugbear (11 May 2006)

JesseM":1pv1i8ym said:


> Scrit


Braces was the word I was trying to think of  I think it time for me to go to bed.[/quote]

Bracing is much easier than perfect M&T's...

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour.html#bench_brace

(and nailed-on sheet materials are just as good)

BugBear


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## bugbear (11 May 2006)

Philly":tqex38l8 said:


> So, my 2p worth. If you aren't going for a powered thicknesser a metal scrub (let's face it, off the shelf there is a choice of two) will be a good friend to you.
> Hope this helps
> Philly



Any reason to categorically prefer a metal scrub over wooden?

http://www.fine-tools.com/schrup.htm

(Of course) I would recommend converting a woodie jack for overall cost/benefit (pace Scrit, I've never seen a cheap scrub in the wild)

woodie jacks are pretty common.

BugBear


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## Colin C (11 May 2006)

There is one more thing that has been missed, is to M&T ( without glue )and bolt together.
Its a great way of putting a base together as it just needs you to tighten the bolts put if it becomes lose and if you need to take it down, it will break down very easly.
Just my 2p


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## mr (11 May 2006)

Thats my current set up Colin , It may be that my bolts just need a bit of a tighten up. Though Bugbears cross braces look useful as well.


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## Colin C (11 May 2006)

I found with mine that I needed to do it a few times before it stopped moving, so I would try that first


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## Philly (11 May 2006)

BB
I have a wooden scrub. But since trying the metal ones I prefer the extra weight. Helps when hogging :lol: 
Cheers
Philly


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## Midnight (12 May 2006)

> Is a scrub plane too specialist an investment?



short answer is that if you're serious about using hand planes to do your stock prep then the first essential tool on your list should be a proper scrub plane; trying to get by with a reworked bench plane is just kidding yourself... 

there's a gulf of difference in their capabilities... then again, maybe you're into watching the blade in your make believe scrub flex like a bakers spatula.. proper scrubs have a real thick iron for a reason... nuff said..??



> Can the same job be done with other planes?




I've tried just about every alternative there is (with the exception of the woodie cos in this neck of the woods they aren't exactly common as muck).. Biggest waste of time n money was the hand held electric plane... within 10 mins of using it the air in the shop's so thick with dust that ya canna see what you're doing... abandoning the shop for an hour to let the stuff settle followed by a 2 hour decontamination of the entire shop is hardly an effective use of your time; wearing a mask for that kinda time gets long in a hurry.!! Once that's done, then you need to deal with the tear out the damn things leave behind which can be just as deep as the few passes they've made... frustration happens...

so... save yourelf some time and disapointment (not to mention casssh wasted on half ass'd stand ins)... buy it once, buy it properly and start some serious scrubbing... 

just one word of caution... wear your safety glasses.. these things take a vicious shaving.!!

btw if you need to remove 20mm from a board to get to desired thickness, you're buying the wrong stock in the first place...


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## MikeW (12 May 2006)

> short answer is that if you're serious about using hand planes to do your stock prep then the first essential tool on your list should be a proper scrub plane; trying to get by with a reworked bench plane is just kidding yourself...


Guess I'm not too serious about scrubbin'--I sold my proper scrub, a LN, in favor of a converted #5 1/4. Had 'em both long enough to make the decision :lol: 

Questions. How long has a "scrub" plane been in existence? What did the poor souls do prior to their invention?

Take care, Mike


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## mr (12 May 2006)

Midnight":3lapystd said:


> short answer is that if you're serious about using hand planes to do your stock prep then the first essential tool on your list should be a proper scrub plane;
> 
> SNIP
> 
> btw if you need to remove 20mm from a board to get to desired thickness, you're buying the wrong stock in the first place...



I tend to agree, just a feeling, I have no knowledge hence the question in the first place. I've been thinking about the electric handheld planer and I just feel kind of uncomfortable with the idea. As I said previously, I think, I have a 17inch woodie here with a big wide mouth that I might have a go with first and see how I get on. 

Re the stock, I was looking at removing about 10 mm I think though your response and Scrits earlier has convinced me that I am looking at the wrong stock as you say and that I need to rethink before placing any orders. One of the things Ive often found is that the yards arent particularly helpful with that kind of info, they obviously want to make a shilling or two, but for the likes of me (green stripe a mile wide) I suspect its all to easy to be taken advantage of a tad. Im probably over reacting but it often seems as though they just want to get off the phone, are really only interested in selling a house full of timber, or its a case of "he doesnt know what he needs who am I to tell him" - insert as appropriate. Another reason why you lot are so valuable to the loikes of me. 

cheers.


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## Midnight (12 May 2006)

> I sold my proper scrub, a LN, in favor of a converted #5 1/4.



whatever turns your crank Mike... 

I'd be lost without my L-N scrub, but then I'm working with roughsawn boards.. none o yer girlie s4s for me..  

just keep the O2 tanks on standby for me huh..???


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## Midnight (12 May 2006)

> I suspect its all to easy to be taken advantage of a tad.



my 1 experience buying stick from a yard would keep the likes of Scrit chuckling for a week... you don't have monopoly on being a rookie.. trust me..

I gave them a list as long as your arm of pre dimensioned stock I wanted to buy.. they sold me a 20ft length of 8x2 and told me t get at it... first prob was that my shop's only 11 1/2 ft long...

thesedays I buy direct from a sawmill that I've invested some time in over the years.. started out buying just a couple of boards, building up experience with each transaction and subsequent project.. The last load I hauled back was a kick in the wazzoo off half a ton (most of it still in the raw damn near a year on).... The difference is that this last time I knew exactly what I wanted, what to look for (spotting lovely grain beneath a years worth of dirt accumulated while air drying aint easy) and knew that although it was gonna be expenssive, I'd be hard pushed to find better quality stock elsewhere...

Start out small (not birdfeeder small but..... hell you know what I'm saying here) learn to listen to your tools; working wood with hand tools has the benfit of teaching you how wood behaves in a way that you'll never forget... allow yourself enough latitude to make some mistakes, everybody makes em throughout every stage of a project.. stock selection and provider being one of many stages.. Don't be afraid to shop around; reputable mills and yards are exxperienced enough to know that us amature muppets will reward their patience with repeat custom and recommendations to other similar muppets with a masochistic streak... 

re stock size... I can't speak for finished sizes that you can get from pre-milled stock, never bought the stuff... working with roughsawn I reckon I'm doing real well if I can get a 18mm thick stick from a 1" roughsawn board.. it might be an idea to consider resawing first if you need thinner sticks from similar board thickness...


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## Scrit (12 May 2006)

Midnight":2w71kg9o said:


> Biggest waste of time n money was the hand held electric plane... within 10 mins of using it the air in the shop's so thick with dust that ya canna see what you're doing... abandoning the shop for an hour to let the stuff settle followed by a 2 hour decontamination of the entire shop is hardly an effective use of your time; wearing a mask for that kinda time gets long in a hurry.!! Once that's done, then you need to deal with the tear out the damn things leave behind which can be just as deep as the few passes they've made... frustration happens...


So you hadn't considered attaching the planer to an extractor? Or working outside? That solves the dust problem. Wearing a mask for hours at a time is only necessary if you have rubbish extraction, Mike, so it's something worth sorting out for anyone who uses any sort of machinery. And sorting out extraction gets rid of a lot of the "decontamination" issues. What I don't understand is the tear out problems you had. I just can't see how you got them. I sometimes use a power planer to take-out high spots on warped boards and 3 one millimetre passes is much better than one three millimetre one any day. You also have to change the technique and plane a bit nearer to the direction of the grain - that way with sharp cutters you have minimal tear out, and what there is taken care of on the planer/thicknesser. And in some cases wetting the surface can help with wayward grain, too. Despite what you may think there are techniques to deal with this.

Different strokes for different folks



Midnight":2w71kg9o said:


> > I suspect its all to easy to be taken advantage of a tad.
> 
> 
> My 1 experience buying stick from a yard would keep the likes of Scrit chuckling for a week... you don't have monopoly on being a rookie.. trust me..


If it makes any difference timber buying is the one area even for use trade types where _caveat emptor_ is the watchword (watch term?). Some of the rubbish that some yards try to palm off on you is amazing, and if they don't know you or think that you're an amateur then they regard it as open season....... But there are good yards, too. For example I've never had a bad board off John Boddy, not the cheapest, but their stuff generally has less waste on it so in the long term can work out cheaper for me

Scrit


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## Alf (12 May 2006)

Midnight":2d1ryd02 said:


> short answer is that if you're serious about using hand planes to do your stock prep then the first essential tool on your list should be a proper scrub plane; trying to get by with a reworked bench plane is just kidding yourself...


Heck, Mike, that'd come as an awful surprise to an awful lot of our woodworking ancestors judging by the number of scrub planes I _don't_ see. :wink: A scrub plane's good fun, but I think Chris Schwarz makes a good case for it really not being the ideal stock prep tool.

Cheers, Alf


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## GEPPETTO (12 May 2006)

Hi guys,
experience is mostly the thing which serve to express any statements 8) hence..
... until few days ago I didn't know what it wanted to say to work with a scrub plane.. 
I bought an used scrub plane (stanley #40) which is still in the original condition when I bought it - dirty and with the blade with a very slight camber- it's almost straight :shock: 
Because I had to end a project quickly I chosen to honing lightly the blade and to use the plane in that way.
Guys, it has been very, very easy to flatten a bowed slab and after flattened the first surface to remove the 10mm of waste on the other side.
Remember the plane wasn't properly tuned.. Over almost two hours I taken a rought slab of beech (100x20x4 cm) I had a squared shelve.. 
I don't know if that time is few or too much but for me, at the first arms, it is awfully 
Surely to have a planner would do to save time but it's so fun and gratifying to work with hand tools (no noise, no dust everywhere, no cyclone with its noise, ecc ecc). Condition which can only be around an amateur who doesn't do business with woodworking. The amateur can't compete vs great industry .

Cheers
Gabriele


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## MikeW (12 May 2006)

Alf":ypa3vlgv said:


> Midnight":ypa3vlgv said:
> 
> 
> > short answer is that if you're serious about using hand planes to do your stock prep then the first essential tool on your list should be a proper scrub plane; trying to get by with a reworked bench plane is just kidding yourself...
> ...


Heck, I remember catching a little flak over my experiment with converting the junior jack of mine to function as my scrub by a few people  

Nomenclature invented and applied to a specific plane made by Stanley aside, scrubbing is a function, not a designated tool. It is in the nature of man to refine and define. This is especially helpful when one is in the business of making and selling things like planes. The fact is, removing excess waste in an efficient manner is what I call scrubbing for communication purposes.

Some people thought my opening the mouth and placing a heavy camber on a plane they thought was too heavy and too long [and for some, too "rare" a plane] near sacrilege. What didn't matter at the time to few but me was the fact it functioned efficiently for the removal of excess wood--for me.

What plane is used is only consequential for the person using it. By its very nature of function, this removal of waste dictates a cambered iron. How cambered directly relates to the amount of waste one can remove with each pass. Too, the mouth needs to be open enough for the waste to efficiently pass through.

To get hung up on an invented term as applied to a particular plane made by Stanley is, well, silly. Just wait until some people find out I have a Sargent made #3 with an opened mouth and a heavily cambered blade I use to remove excess waste in a hurry on smaller boards, in particular, small boards I have been riving from some nice wood previously known by the term, firewood... :wink: 

Take care, Mike
who will now leave this thread...


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## Midnight (12 May 2006)

> So you hadn't considered attaching the planer to an extractor? Or working outside? That solves the dust problem. Wearing a mask for hours at a time is only necessary if you have rubbish extraction, Mike, so it's something worth sorting out for anyone who uses any sort of machinery. And sorting out extraction gets rid of a lot of the "decontamination" issues.



Been there too Scrit.. HVAC, proper hi flow ducting, shop vac on the portable tools (when the tool's been designed with that in mind)... I've found the hard way that for me (low volume production) the best remed is not to generate any dust in the first place.. best clean up tool after the scrub plane is yer Mk1 hand brush n dust pan.
I've said before that there's multiple levels of benefits for me... dust tends to aggrivate SWMBO's asthema, working with handraulics gives me the cardio vascular workout that the doc is always preaching at me since my heart attack.. it also tickles my warped sense of humour that in an age where Tim Taylor's "MORE POWER" rules supreme, somewhere in deepest dampest Scotlandshire there's a trainee auld fart still clinging onto the old school methods..

I reckon the tear out I encountered is down to poor technique (as you say), figured wood and a cheap n nasty planer.. it's not a tool I like to use so it seldom sees light of day... the port for its dawgie bag has the weirdest shape I've ever seen (parallelogram..??); about as far removed from being compatable with the shop vac as I've seen... whoever designed this puppy was wayyyy more warped than I am..


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## Midnight (12 May 2006)

> Heck, Mike, that'd come as an awful surprise to an awful lot of our woodworking ancestors judging by the number of scrub planes I don't see.



With all due ancestoral respect, your arguement makes as much sense as putting the transportation of bulk goods back into the hands of ox drawn wagons.. Times change, tools evolve..progress happens...



> but I think Chris Schwarz makes a good case for it really not being the ideal stock prep tool.



I dare say Mr Black is right (who is he anyway??).. but until such times as the tecnhotweakers come up with a stock prep tool that will pass over a rough sawn board, transmographying it into a finish smoothed stick in one pass, can be bought without selling your soul to the devil and will run on recycled kitchen waste, I reckon I'll stick with my #40 1/2.. far from ideal it may be, but it kicks enough azz to suit my needs and does it pretty efficiently too..


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## mr (12 May 2006)

Chris Schwarz concept of a scrub as a ripping plane is certainly interesting. He may weigh in at some point with more info (?) But it does seem odd that as far as I can tell the european way is wooden and over't pond not. Hmm thats an unfocused thought If I ever saw one.


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## MikeW (12 May 2006)

> But it does seem odd that as far as I can tell the european way is wooden and over't pond not. Hmm thats an unfocused thought If I ever saw one.


Different and changing/divergent traditions is all. Well, not all. 

Stanley began a marketing campaign which changed the way tools such as planes were distributed. The word "Pervasive" comes to mind when looking through catalogs of retailers from hardware stores: Stanley tools were available everywhere. As well, Stanley was successful in communicating the idea that cast iron was better than wood for planes.

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (13 May 2006)

MikeW":1jqzo9na said:


> Heck, I remember catching a little flak over my experiment with converting the junior jack of mine to function as my scrub by a few people





MikeW":1jqzo9na said:


> Some people thought my opening the mouth and placing a heavy camber on a plane they thought was too heavy and too long [and for some, *too "rare" a plane*] near sacrilege.


And there's why. Mike, you gotta remember what's not so rare in the US is like hen's teeth over here.

Mike (ye of Midnightness) I'm not advocating powered means - I'm suggesting using a longer plane with slightly less camber might potentially cut down the scrub time. It also seems that ye olde craftsmen of yore here in Blighty thought so too, and used their wooden jacks for the task long after the 'Murricans had embraced more powered means. 

Ach, I can't really get into this properly - my connection's been dropping off every 5 seconds in the last few days, so I'm just trying to catch a window of opportunity here! ](*,)

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (13 May 2006)

> I'm suggesting using a longer plane with slightly less camber might potentially cut down the scrub time.



OK... not to be argumentative here, but you're gonna need to explain that one back to me because it runs totally contrary to my prior experience with every alternative I could get my hands on... Prior to buying the #40 1/2 my prep time for shaping the board was measured in double digit hours... with the scrub and despite the dicky ticker that time's reduced by an order of magnitude... I can kid myself into believeing some things, but thinking that adding days to a project is some benefit isn't one of em..

alternatives tried were #5 with a straight blade, curved blade, heavily curved blade and similarly with the #62... tried the #62's toothing blade too... lets not go there shall we...?


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## Alf (14 May 2006)

Sorry, Mike, I knew I shouldn't have posted with one eye on the little green light. #-o

I think what I was trying to say was a longer plane with slightly less camber might cut down on the _flattening_ time. This is the longer jack would start on the flattening task while also creating hollows needing less work to level off. But that presupposes one is using a scrub as a scrub, and not doing a Cosman of lightening up the scrub's cut and using it as a sort of short-ar, erm, "posterior" jack. I suppose the question I ask myself is exactly how often do we need the extreme stock removal of a scrub on the face of sawn boards and are we potentially making more work for ourselves than we need?

As for the jack issue being no good to you, did you try a wooden jack? This kinda goes back to t'other Mike's point too - is it not unreasonable to say there's some difference between pushing round 15" of cast or ductile _arn_ and 15" of best Beech? 'Course this is all strictly theory as far as I'm concerned; I don't hand prep boards as a matter of course like wot you do, but despite that it might have some merit. Of course if you _did_ try a wooden jack too then the point is virtually blown out of the water... 8-[

Cheers, Alf


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 May 2006)

> I suppose the question I ask myself is exactly how often do we need the extreme stock removal of a scrub on the face of sawn boards and are we potentially making more work for ourselves than we need?



Hi Alf

One of the reasons I have a few scrub planes is that they perform different tasks. One of these is indeed the removal of large amounts of wood since the boards I often use are rough sawn and/or seriously hard wood. It is just too hard to use a blade with a moderate camber in this situation. On the other hand, there are as many times that I am removing just a little - perhaps flattening a cupped board - and I want less blade projection. One of the features I would really like to see in a scrub plane is screwed blade adjustment. 



> is it not unreasonable to say there's some difference between pushing round 15" of cast or ductile arn and 15" of best Beech?



It is not just the length of the scrub plane that is important for me. It is the weight of the plane. For hard woods I much prefer a heavy plane, one that gains momentum as you plough furrows. I often turn to a Stanley #5 1/2 with a seriously cambered blade (still the thin Stanley iron - I am planning to replace one with an old Mathieson tapered iron. This should still allow me to use the blade adjustment). So 15" of light plane is not going to mean as much to me as 15" of cast iron in this context. For moderate lengths and moderate density of wood, the LV Scrub is ideal. For soft woods the situation is different and I am happy to use a lighter scrub plane, such as the Stanley #40 or even a retreaded #3. 

I am sure all of the above is a broken record to most.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Midnight (14 May 2006)

> I suppose the question I ask myself is exactly how often do we need the extreme stock removal of a scrub on the face of sawn boards and are we potentially making more work for ourselves than we need?



OK.. had just about enough coffee inside me to see what you're getting at.. seems to be a degree of kerfuffledness going on here; I'll try to clarify...

Right now I've a slab (first of 3 for this project) of rippled sycamore on the bench, roughly 23" wide, bark on both outer edges, beautiful grain (that's as 'ard as iron btw) but being in the rough, has some serious lumps n bumps to it, not to mention some rather crusty muck embedded in the surface thanks to a years worth of air drying. 

Reaching for the scrub to tackle this is a no brainer; best tool for what I'm trying to do i.e. flatten the worst of the lumpy bits, cut through the crusty bits and get some shape into the board. The last thing on my mind at this stage is trying to flatten the thing; it's far too early for that, I'm simply removing the worst of the high spots to get to the stage where a jack has a fighting chance of taking a full width (working across the board) shaving. 

When I reach that point, the work of the scrub is done, the board's reasonably flat, out of twist and free of surface muck that could chip the blades of subsequent planes. Then, and only then will I reach for my #5 1/2 (after a lay down inside an oxygen tent), set to take as agressive a cut as my wrists can handle, furrows for the removal of. Technique from there on in has already been discussed elsewhere...

My point about the scrub wiping the floor with jack planes is that it's simply far more capable of taking those initial heavy cuts.. it's what it's been designed to do and does it with awesome efficiency... like I said earlier, it's use has taken hours out of my board prep time...


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## Philly (14 May 2006)

I think you got it covered there, Mike. I recently watched Chris Schwarz DVD "Coarse, Medium, Fine" and he put accross the point that you should work with the coarse tool as long as possible before moving to a finer tool. That way the job moves along quicker and you don't waste time taking swipes with your smoother on a board that still needs plenty of stock removing.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Alf (14 May 2006)

Midnight":3b6uj8ly said:


> Right now I've a slab (first of 3 for this project) of rippled sycamore on the bench, roughly 23" wide


Lucky barsteward... :evil: :lol: 

Without seeing the board in question, it's a not really forwarding the argument much.  But I take it you haven't use a wooden jack at any rate? So my theory can still fly - Australia doesn't count, Derek, 'cos you blokes appear to go round planing steel and concrete trees as far as I can make out... :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (14 May 2006)

> But I take it you haven't use a wooden jack at any rate? So my theory can still fly



when I've tried the same body length, same blade profiles and played around with all kinds of depth of cut, the only difference I haven't tried is the material the body's made from... Experience tells me I've hit the right combination of tools, sequencing and technique to have pretty much cracked it... what I have works well, reliably and repeatedly irrespective of the board on the bench... 

As for your wooddy flying... sure.. I guess it could... bolt on wings big enough and strap on enough engine and it'd fly.. pity help the poor sod that's downrange of it tho... it's flight characteristics may well prove to be lesss than ideal...


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## Anonymous (15 May 2006)

Backing up Midnight here. Everyone seems to have found their ideal way of removing wood. Like Mike, I have found the quickest way for me is with a metal scrub when I need to do some serious wood removal (and 10mm is no real challenge at all to a good scrub). A coarse jack is an excellent tool as well and I use one even more often than a scrub but they are distinctly different tools.


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## Mirboo (17 May 2006)

Alf":257uww39 said:


> Australia doesn't count, Derek, 'cos you blokes appear to go round planing steel and concrete trees as far as I can make out...



No, they're called eucalypts. :wink: 

And now perhaps I should introduce myself. Hi, my name is Ian and I am from Sydney Australia. I have been lurking on this forum for a little while and finally decided to sign up. Hopefully any future posts I make will be a little more constructive than this one. It's just that I couldn't resist commenting on Alf's post relating to Australian trees.


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## bugbear (17 May 2006)

Roger Nixon":3lt4llah said:


> A coarse jack is an excellent tool as well and I use one even more often than a scrub but they are distinctly different tools.



Different, yes, but I'd argue they're 2 points on a spectrum.

More points on the spectrum;

Alf has a particularly coarse jack, and I have a modified jack that I'd probably feel justified in calling a scrub.

It's more scrub than jack, certainly.

I have a Record #5 whose sole is flat to 0.5 thou, and who's blade is sharpened straight across, and normally set for 2 thou shavings. Apparently that's a jack too 

BugBear


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## Philly (17 May 2006)

Welcome to the forum, Ian!
Philly


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## Paul Kierstead (17 May 2006)

bugbear":1bvxpjm1 said:


> Alf has a particularly coarse jack, and I have a modified jack that I'd probably feel justified in calling a scrub.
> 
> It's more scrub than jack, certainly.



I do understand what you are saying however:

With smaller, very nasty boards -- especially -- I often just hold the board in one hand and the scrub in the other while I knock of the really nasty bits. The scrub is very light and easy to control with one hand. The Jack is not; it is do-able, but not convient, and somewhat more strenous. Not here that often I am not doing full strokes, just doing some highly targeted initial work.

I find having both useful and use both, but admittedly only use the scrub if things are really bad (I use a very coarse jack the rest of the time). But still, although coarse jack can certainly do rough work, it still isn't the same as a scrub. I would suggest a lightweight #4 (like my record #4) would be much closer.

PK


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## MikeW (17 May 2006)

Hi Ian--welcome. Nice to see you here.

Take care, Mike


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## Anonymous (17 May 2006)

bugbear":3dwi9ymy said:


> I have a Record #5 whose sole is flat to 0.5 thou, and who's blade is sharpened straight across, and normally set for 2 thou shavings. Apparently that's a jack too
> 
> BugBear



Sure, why not? Or you could call it a smoother, panel, polishing plane, or jointer if you wish and I wouldn't argue. I think we can agree it isn't a scrub. :lol:


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## MikeW (17 May 2006)

Roger Nixon":okltbrxx said:


> bugbear":okltbrxx said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Record #5 whose sole is flat to 0.5 thou, and who's blade is sharpened straight across, and normally set for 2 thou shavings. Apparently that's a jack too
> ...


I just love all the nomenclature discussions...

So, if I had a Stanley 40/40 1/2 and ground the blade straight across, would it still be a scrub? :lol: 

Mike
runnin' for his life...


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## Midnight (17 May 2006)

> would it still be a scrub?



I doubt it'd be mistaken for a jointer...


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## Alf (18 May 2006)

MikeW":1yc86snu said:


> So, if I had a Stanley 40/40 1/2 and ground the blade straight across, would it still be a scrub? :lol:


Nah. It'd be a paperweight... :lol: 

Welcome to the forum, Ian. Glad I made that facetious remark then. 

Cheers, Alf


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## mr (19 May 2006)

With luck this weekend will see me butchering a poor old plane to turn her into the scrubber I know she is at heart. There's parts of a wooden jointer I'm making sitting on the bench so I may use that instead though at 22 inches it might be a bit long. With regards the blade I have 4 or 5 "blanks" courtesy of my local blacksmith one of which will become the scrub blade if I can work out how. Any tips or pointers on how to grind the initial camber and bevel? I have an old beaten up cheapie grider from a relatives basement, its nothing special but the wheels spin well enough and a pair of waterstones for the sharpening. For the camber and bevel I'm imagining a freehand "rounding" motion accross the grinder but the back needs flattening by more than the waterstones could politely be asked I think. Im not sure about using the side of the wheel it seems wrong but I can't think why other than it may deform the wheel.
Mike


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## Paul Kierstead (19 May 2006)

mr":13fnoo23 said:


> There's parts of a wooden jointer I'm making sitting on the bench so I may use that instead though at 22 inches it might be a bit long.



Well, one of the good things about woodies is that they are trivial make shorter 



> With regards the blade I have 4 or 5 "blanks" courtesy of my local blacksmith one of which will become the scrub blade if I can work out how. Any tips or pointers on how to grind the initial camber and bevel?



My method: Draw it on there, grind to the line more or less, and eyeball it to be fair.


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## Wiley Horne (19 May 2006)

Picking up on the dialogue between Alf and Midnight....For the wood Mike's working, surely he's got the right plane in his hand. But for my needs, Alf's solution works best. So I think they're both right.

The difference is in the wood. The roughsawn I am usually starting with is what we Murricans call 4/4 (four quarter) or 5/4 (five quarter), referring to quarters of an inch. Mike, what does your mill designate the lumber you are buying? 

4/4 is usually 1" to 1-1/16" thick rough. 5/4 runs about 1-1/4" rough. After crosscutting to rough project length, the 4/4 planks will dress down to about 13/16", say, 20mm. The 5/4 will dress down to 1", say 25mm). The wood will usually be one of the soft or hard maple species, or cherry--almost always figured. These are quite soft woods in Derek's comparisons.

Whether 4/4 or 5/4, I'll be taking about 1/8" of thickness from each side to get to the face-jointed finished board. A longer plane with a little less camber turns out to be better in this situation, at least in my hands. My metal scrub hasn't been out of the drawer since I acquired a 15" wooden jack with a 5-1/2" radius camber to the blade. In fact, I am thinking about trying the olde English/British solution of a fore plane, as described in Moxon, ca. 1700--Moxon does not mention a scrub plane. Didn't the scrub plane came over from Germany to England in the 19th century.

What I like about the wooden jack is the weight, the length, and the adjustability. Weight--it's really kinda effortless. Length--you're pretty well down the road toward jointing the board by the time you're done with the jack. Adjustability--you can adjust the blade depth quite finely with hammer taps--this will result in very little tearout, even in highly figured wood. So you get the full thickness that the board has to offer. 

Question: Has anyone tried doing the initial preparation of roughsawn lumber with a cambered foreplane (I believe 17-18" long) as per Moxon? If so, how did that compare with the alternatives?

Wiley


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## mr (19 May 2006)

> what does your mill designate the lumber you are buying?


They call it 2 inch ( though they keep ringing me with different quotes and then end the conversation by saying they'll go and have a look at their stock to see what they have. Have had three separate calls like that now).
Re the longer foreplane, Thats probably what Im going to try when I get a chance to put a camber on one of these blades. The one I have to hand is 17inches long, as I say it's probably going to be the first line of attack rather than going looking for a metal bodied scrub at this point in time. OF course I could just open up the mouth on the new Jack and have at it, closing the mouth as I go - nice idea probably wont work. 
Mike


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## bugbear (19 May 2006)

mr":1ieagvkc said:


> ...become the scrub blade if I can work out how. Any tips or pointers on how to grind the initial camber and bevel?
> Mike



Here's how I did it. One potential way of many, I suspect.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/scrub.html#blade

BugBear


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## Midnight (20 May 2006)

> Mike, what does your mill designate the lumber you are buying?



much the same as yours Wilie.. either inch or inch-an-quarter... current boards are the latter... aiming for a finished thickness of inch if I can get it.. 

What I'm finding with the scrub is that the initial pass on the board works just fine, however, if I try a back-to-back pass without cutting back the worst of the furrows, subsequent stock removal is neglegable.. the plane skips over the tops of the previous furrows... working in tandem with a course jack gives fastest stock removal... once the jack's taking a full width (of the board) shaving I set the scrub aside... job's done... time to start flattening...


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## Wiley Horne (20 May 2006)

mr Mike.....From the beginning of this thread I thought your very best course was the plane you already had, with the cambered blade. If you haven't used a cambered blade before, I think you will be stunned at the efficiency of the way it slices through the hills and leaves the valleys alone. And it doesn't wear you out. Your board will start looking like a topo map from the channels, and you will know its precise condition from the surface cuts. And it won't wear you out (did I already mention that?).

Like midnight Mike was saying, once your first plane is not removing much wood (and instead cutting where it has already cut), that's the time to switch to your new jack. I used to do this procedure with a simple open-mouthed jack with a straight blade--you can do it, but it wears you out. Also the straight-bladed plane doesn't get as clean and deep a bite on the rolling terrain as the cambered blade--it's more erratic, for example, 

the blade wants to pull the plane toward the side that's digging in first. In comparison, the narrower focus and skewed cutting action of the cambered blade allows it to dig in cleaner and deeper (but narrower) than the regular jack, and you get the feeling that all your energy is being transferred directly to the shaving, rather than being partly dissipated wrestling with the plane. Long story short: Your first instinct is right--start with the cambered blade plane, then go to your new jack to cut down the furrows left by the fore plane. The old guys really did know how to do this job. 

Midnight Mike....how wide did you say that sycamore was? Was that tree felled in Scotland?

Wiley


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## Anonymous (20 May 2006)

Wiley, the wood I usually get has not been sawn or dried as carefully as the wood you describe. If it needed only 1/8" removed from each side, I would not use a scrub either.
Often the wood has a twist and will rock on the bench. The scrub is excellent for working down the high corners only until the board sits firmly on the bench. If there is a cup, the short sole excells at working cross grain where a long sole is of no use.
If there is a bow in the length, I place the bow up and shim under the board. I remove wood from the center by working cross grain or diagonally (working the board from "inside out" as you mentioned in a post on edge jointing) until the board is slightly hollow.
I almost never work along the grain with a scrub as the short sole will pretty much follow the hills and valleys of the board. As the board gets flatter I will start using longer planes with wider blades and less camber and start diagonally to with the grain.
When gluing up panels, I don't try to thickness boards individually since I don't have a thickness planer. I flatten the show face only and do the glue up then I flatten the other side as necessary. A scrub used diagonally or cross grain will quickly even out the underside.


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## Wiley Horne (20 May 2006)

Roger,

Interesting point you make about working at a diagonal or directly cross grain with the scrub. And also about using the scrub to take down the uneven offside of a panel. I will confess to doing that job with a lunchbox planer, after handflattening the appearance side. 

I spoke too quickly when I said an 1/8" off each side--it's an _average_ of 1/8", which means that in the high corners, it'll be more like 3/16". With the wooden jack, you can adjust the blade depth as you go very quickly with hammertaps.

Do you try to deal with twisty boards in the cross-cutting? My batches of roughsawn will have enough well-behaved pieces for tops and case sides and other long pieces. But if the board has a lot of twist, I'm gonna throw in the towel right away, cross cut it at 2-foot or so intervals, and then resaw it to make drawer bottoms or dust panels. I figure that's the best yield from the wood, even if it has to wait for the next project. If I try to get rails and stiles from a twisty board, or a couple of top pieces, sure as little green apples, one of those boards is going to end up thin by the time it's straight. 

Do you use both the 40 and the 40-1/2?

Wiley


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## Midnight (21 May 2006)

Wiley... this one's average is around 23" give or take... has more fiddle back grain than I've ever seen in a board.. I've some others in the stack that are wider, some narrower.. but none so far look at the first sycamore board I worked.. finished panels were 29" wide..

They're all locally grown and milled.. these came from woods I grew up playing in...


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## mr (21 May 2006)

So once again thanks to all for the input to this thread. As mentioned I've made a blade up from one of my blade blanks - Cambered freehand on a bench grinder and then sharpened (after a fashion on waterstones) The back is far from flat and the bevel looks to be approaching 45 degrees though I havent measured it. The blade then went into an old 17 inch woodie with a gaping and poor condition mouth. No cap iron / chip breaker just the woodie's own wedge. This is about as coarse as it comes really. But it works. I've attacked a piece of rough pine (it was all I had to hand) and taken out a lot of the rough and got it into a workable state. A first attempt but I will definitly perservere to improve results - anyway for those interested - a couple of pictures.


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## Philly (21 May 2006)

Looks good, Mike!
To be fair, knotty pine is NOT fun for practising on :lol: Those knots really mess you (and the blade setting) up!
Nice one,
Philly


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## Anonymous (21 May 2006)

Wiley, yes I try to cut pieces close to finish size before starting to flatten. One place I used a scrub intensively was in my workbench top. I crosscut the maple to approximate 8' lengths and ripped into 4 1/2" wide strips. The wood tended to bow after being ripped and I wound up turning several board feet into scrub shavings. Since the boards had to be face jointed getting those size boards very flat was challenging and my #40 and I got to be very good acquaintences. In hindsight I would have been much better off to have bought surfaced lumber and I will for any similar future projects.

On most projects, the scrub isn't needed and I start with a jack plane.

I had a #40 1/2 but I sold it. I prefer the little #40 to it or the LN & LV scrubs but that is just a personal preference


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## Wiley Horne (22 May 2006)

Roger, I'm gonna make a little confession to you, and I hope you don't tell anybody: I bought the whole slab top of my bench from Highland Hdwe--big brown truck brought it. So I hope you're feeling appropriately galootish.

Talking about galootish stuff, mr Mike did a super job with his new fore plane. Moxon would be proud. Blade camber looks great, and the shavings show a nice even double taper. Really gives me the hots for a fore plane.

Midnight mike...23" slab! fiddleback figure! I think I'm beginning to get the picture why you were motivated to buy all those high-end planes! 

Wiley


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## Alf (22 May 2006)

Mike, bellissimo!



Wiley Horne":kgrnxwmd said:


> Roger, I'm gonna make a little confession to you, and I hope you don't tell anybody: I bought the whole slab top of my bench from Highland Hdwe--big brown truck brought it. So I hope you're feeling appropriately galootish.


Yeah, shame on you, Wiley. Some of us did the thing really properly and bought the whole caboodle, not just the top...



Wiley Horne":kgrnxwmd said:


> Really gives me the hots for a fore plane.


 :-s :shock: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (23 May 2006)

> I think I'm beginning to get the picture why you were motivated to buy all those high-end planes!



yeaaaaa..well.... it's a dirty job but... what with all the plugs n free ads that Rob gets in here, someone's gotta keep the wolf from Tom's door..


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## Alf (23 May 2006)

Midnight":1mygvkaf said:


> > I think I'm beginning to get the picture why you were motivated to buy all those high-end planes!
> 
> 
> 
> yeaaaaa..well.... it's a dirty job but... what with all the plugs n free ads that Rob gets in here, someone's gotta keep the wolf from Tom's door..


Well we're still waiting for the reviews, Mike... :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (24 May 2006)

> Well we're still waiting for the reviews, Mike...



some of us gotta earn a living too Alf... workin 12-15 hour days and 7 day weeks doesn't leave much time for wordsmithing..... y'all know what I'm sayin...????


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