# The importance of practising what one preaches



## Steve Maskery (21 Mar 2015)

I'm not sure where to start, to be honest.

I was doing lots of things right. Wearing safety glasses, guard in place, short fence for ripping, using a pushstick. 







And yet, and yet.

It was the end of the cut, ripping a bevel on a piece of trim for the outside of my windows. Something, somehow, got caught, there was an almighty bang and the top of my saw exploded. Something hit my finger. I kicked the saw stop. Jim and I looked at each other. I looked at my hand. Nothing appeared to be missing, not even a huge amount of blood, but it jolly well hurt.

The plastic of the guard was somewhat scored, one of the support arms was broken, as was the support brackets which hold the SUVA arm in place, both at the RH end of the rear rail and the shoe that is mounted on the fence. It's all a bit of a mess.





















It's taken four teeth off the blade and another is broken






My finger throbs like mad. Jim suggested relieving the pressure with a hot needle, which I did






So how did it all happen? Jim is a Safety Officer, so doing an accident investigation is a bit of a busman's holiday for him.

The one thing I did wrong was not moving the fence to the LH side. My saw is a traditional design, where the blade tilts to the right. More modern designs have the blade tilting away from the fence. I don't know what got caught on what, but the workpiece is trapped by the fence on one side and the bladeon the other side and from ABOVE, because it is tilted. I have recently tweaked the position of my SUVA boom arm because a screw was catching on the shoe. I think I have the guard closer to the blade on one side than the other, and it's the wrong side. So when canted, the blade is very close to the plastic. I think that when I pushed the guard made contact with the blade and that is when all hell broke loose.

I was in quite a state of shock. It all happened so fast a nanosecond. Anyone who says they wouold just step out of the way of a kickback is deluding themselves. It's happened before you realise it has happened.

There is no serious damage to me and all the damage to the machine can be put right. There is a considerable dent in my pride though. I knew I should bevel with the fence on the left. But it was only a couple of cuts, right?

In a perverse way I am glad it has happened. Well, not glad it has happened, exactly, but at least I now know first hand what the consequences of a tiny piece of stupidity can be. And I am very glad that all the bits that were in place to protect me did actually work. They did their job.

But it just goes to show that accidents can happen to anyone, even someone who makes tablesaw safety training DVDs in the presence of a Safety Officer.

Stay safe out there.

My finger hurts.


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## Baldhead (21 Mar 2015)

Ouch I bet that hurt. Your lucky you still have the same number of fingers you had before you started using the saw, let that be a warning. I'm thinking, later this evening you may need a medicinal brandy or 3.

Take care

Stew


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## lurker (21 Mar 2015)

All I can add is that I am pretty sure that had Steve not taken the precautions he lists it could/would have been much worse. As a result I am going to review my own sawing actions and upgrade my saw guard.

By the way, we are still unsure what caused the damage to his finger but Steve's hand was at least a foot away from the blade at all times.


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## GLFaria (21 Mar 2015)

If my experience in industrial production factories goes for anything, sooner or later an accident is prone to (will!) happen when one deals frequently with machines, no matter how much precautions or safety measures are taken, never mind zero acident principles or theories.
The actual role of safety rules is to make it happen later rather than sooner, and with lesser consequences - and live to learn something from it.
Hope you recover soon.


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## KevM (21 Mar 2015)

I'm very glad you're (mostly) okay Steve; well done for sharing your experience, it's not always the easiest thing to do but it makes things safer for all of us.

Cheers, Kev


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## Steve Maskery (21 Mar 2015)

I'm wondering if it was the pushstick itself that did the damage. The business end has certainly made uncontrolled contact with the blade, and as Jim says, my hand was a decent distance from the blade. I can't think what else it could be. The workpiece itself was not kicked back, I don't think. Certainly not in the conventional way.


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## lurker (21 Mar 2015)

"The workpiece itself was not kicked back, I don't think. "

Definitely not, both parts were lying on the table past the saw blade.
I guess it was the stick but I wonder where all those teeth flew off to?
Reinforces the need for high impact safety glasses cos you never know when things might start to fly around when high speed motors are running.


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## Steve Maskery (21 Mar 2015)

Ah yes, it could have been the teeth, couldn't it? And I have an abrasion on my forefinger which looks as if something small scraped it. But the finger end job does look as if it was hit by something larger and blunter than a flying tooth, wouldn't you say?

By the way, Jim, I'm really glad you came over today, I've not seen anyone since Tuesday! Thanks for all your help. Come again!


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## Peter Sefton (21 Mar 2015)

It still amazes me how quickly accidents happen even with experienced and careful woodworkers. We should all be using the push sticks and guards as you did Steve but even then these accidents do happen. Very good of you to share your experience it just makes you re-evalute how you work. The only good news is it could have been worse.

I went to visit a mates workshop last week his machine shop Forman had a table saw accident a couple of days earlier. Lost one finger and totally smashed up another. No contact with the saw blade at all. 

He was also doing some angled work, the off cuts were building up on the back of the saw bench and then the back of the blade took hold of one piece and threw it across the saw table. The sharp mitre off-cut cut one finger clean off and smashed an other. He said it was like the end of a soft dowel hit by a big hammer.

Sorry not a nice story but this guy has 25 years experience as a wood machinist, but he said afterwards he knew he should have turned the saw off and removed the offcuts with his push stick.

I hope yours heals soon, the other issue this raises is lone working. Most of us do work in our workshops alone to get away from the better half or just to have so time to oneself, but I always say take your mobile phone or at least tell someone what you are doing and when you will be out of the shed just incase something unexpected happens.


Cheers Peter


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## Woodmonkey (21 Mar 2015)

Ouch, glad there was no permanent damage done, thanks for sharing so we can all hopefully learn...


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## RobinBHM (21 Mar 2015)

Im glad it wasnt worse :shock: 

I dont think the setup was wrong, many saws only tilt towards the fence and panel saws dont allow the rip fence to be positioned to the left of the blade. If you had the fence to the left, it may have encouraged you to stand too much in line with the blade.

One advantage of a panel saw is that the sliding table, usually 400mm wide, forces the operator to be positioned to the left of the sliding section and therefore well out of line of the blade.


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## Steve Maskery (21 Mar 2015)

Thank you all.

Peter, that is a very good point about lone working. I live alone, so there is no-one to shout to, even if I had the lungs of Brian Blessed. I do have my phone with me, but only out of habit, rather than as a safety feature. Your post is a good reminder to have it with me in the workshop.

S


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## custard (21 Mar 2015)

Peter Sefton":3lch9qgs said:


> He was also doing some angled work, the off cuts were building up on the back of the saw bench and then the back of the blade took hold of one piece and threw it across the saw table. The sharp mitre off-cut cut one finger clean off and smashed an other. He said it was like the end of a soft dowel hit by a big hammer.
> 
> Sorry not a nice story but this guy has 25 years experience as a wood machinist, but he said afterwards he knew he should have turned the saw off and removed the offcuts with his push stick.



Flipping heck! And we've all done it, everyone lets the off-cuts build up at least once in a while. 

It would never have occurred to me that an off-cut could cross the saw to the operator side, nor that a bevelled off-cut could do so much damage. That's certainly a wake up call. Thanks for posting and I hope the guy concerned makes a quick recovery.


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## nanscombe (21 Mar 2015)

If you have a burglar alarm in your workshop could you add a panic button, or two, for you to hit in the event of a mishap whilst you are on your own?

It might prove more practical than dialling your phone.

I'm not trying to be morbid but .. you know what I mean.

Oh crikey you live alone, not sure how useful that would be then.


ETA:
Phone Dialling Panic Alarm with Two Way Communication Pendant £139.98

"This unique Panic alarm system is for use with elderly and vulnerable family members. This panic alarm system will dial out to up to 3 programmed telephone contacts after the neck worn panic pendant has been pressed or the panic button on the base unit has been pressed.
Easy to set up with a 40m indoor wireless range. The phone dialing panic alarm can contact mobile, landline and international telephone numbers as required. This phone dialing panic alarm will cycle through to the next programmed telephone number if an answer machine or engaged tone is detected. The selected contact can then speak directly with the person who activated the system or listen in to assess the situation and take the necessary level for action required."


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## Owl (21 Mar 2015)

In one sense you have been very very lucky Steve and in another, unlucky ..... I hope you get a good nights sleep tonight and the finger heals quickly. I fully agree with your comment about Peter Sefton's advice concerning working on your own, it's something we never really think about.

I'm about to re-post one of your pics on your workshop build thread, hope it doesn't give any offence.


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## Mar_mite (21 Mar 2015)

custard":1f995iko said:


> Peter Sefton":1f995iko said:
> 
> 
> > He was also doing some angled work, the off cuts were building up on the back of the saw bench and then the back of the blade took hold of one piece and threw it across the saw table. The sharp mitre off-cut cut one finger clean off and smashed an other. He said it was like the end of a soft dowel hit by a big hammer.
> ...




Flipping heck is right! That has scared the s*** out of me!


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## Graham Orm (21 Mar 2015)

Table saw for sale.


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## heimlaga (22 Mar 2015)

In my humble oppinion this is exactly what guards and safety precautions are intended to do. Reducing the frequency of accidents and once an accident happens reducing the damage it causes.
Thanks to your precautions your hand suffered no such damage that doesn't heal. The precautions did their job. If it wasn't for your precautions you would probably be missing some parts that don't grow back.

Still I don't understand your left versus right tilt reasoning. All tilting saw blades that I have seen tilt towards the fence and the fence cannot be moved to the right side. Has this changed lately?


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

Yes it has. If the blade tilts towards the fence, the workpiece is wedged in place and can get kicked back, but if the blade tilts away, the workpiece sits on top of the blade and cannot get trapped. Many modern TSs are like this now, including the current version of mine.

But that was not the cause of the accident, it did not get kicked back at all. The more I think about it, the ore I think it must have been either the guard of the pushstick making unintended contact and everything else resulted from that. Very, very quickly indeed.


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## DennisCA (22 Mar 2015)

Lots of american table saws tilt the other way and on plenty of american right tilt saws the fence can also be put on the other side of the blade to achieve the same result. European saws, esp. those of the sliding table format, tilt right. I wish my saw could move the fence on that side but it can't and I tried to do some bevel cutting last night (to make runners for my saw which has dovetail runners) and it was decidedly unsafe and I won't be doing that again. The resulting runner wasn't that good either, it's super hard to get it right. I now also wish I just had a regular square track, the only way I'm gonna get a good runner for this is if I can buy pre-made ones. Though I am considering drilling and threading some holes in my sliding table and bolting jigs to that instead.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

hat is a good poit, Dennis, many sliding tables will preclude the option of moving the fence to the left.
S


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## Bradshaw Joinery (22 Mar 2015)

If its caughtt he guard on the bevel, it would drag the guard down at an angle (which it cqnt do) and something will give. This case it looks like the teeth snapped off where it caught, gripped and snapped the guard and the resulting force broke the supports on the guard. 

Dare i say this accident was caused by the guard, and may not have happened with a diferent setting? Ive seen lots of violent incidents from bevelled or wedged cuts on circular saws, i now avoid it and use a bandsaw or a tracksaw where possible


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## DennisCA (22 Mar 2015)

Niki (of nikis jigs fame) has lots of setups for bevel cutting on a right tilt saw otherwise.


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## Peter Sefton (22 Mar 2015)

I think the only saw I have ever used with a LH tilt was an old Startrite. It was a useful feature on occasions. Bevel cutting has a higher accident risk than straight cutting for the two reasons stated before.

1. Timber getting trapped below the blade and jammed against the fence or rising up and getting Kick back.

2. Mitred off cuts dropping or catching the back of the blade and being thrown towards the user.

Another problem that can arise if bevelling both long edges on a board, is when doing the second bevel cut the first one can creep under the rip fence and get trapped.

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

Glad it wasn't worse Steve!

I couldn't work out what your set up was from the photos. There seems to be so much clutter - some of it looking very flimsily attached, particularly that plastic guard thing on long spindly rods with home made brackets. 
But what was very obvious was the absence of a crown guard fixed to the riving knife. 
These do at least three things; 
1 prevent you from touching the blade from above.
2 protect you from stuff flying up from the blade - sawdust itself but also knots/workpieces/off-cuts if they get swept up.
3 stop objects from accidentally meeting the blade from above.
This last could be the cause - that flimsy plastic thing whatever it is - did it drop or vibrate into the blade somehow?

PS and in your first photo - your left hand seems to be close up to the end of the push stick. It should also have a push stick in it! Protecting one hand is better than non I suppose.


> Anyone who says they would just step out of the way of a kickback is deluding themselves.


I agree - but what I have said many times is that if things are going wrong and you are losing control in any way then you should back off, step back, and not be tempted to grab or hold down the workpiece nearer the blade. Not quite the same thing and doesn't apply in this case.

PS just had a re-read - that is what happened isn't it - that loosely attached plastic guard dropped on to the blade? A crown guard would have prevented this.
Also the plastic looks like 1/2" perspex. Tough enough to rip off the saw teeth and at the same time snap it down and crush your finger. Be better if it was thinner. It's useless anyway and it looks like it was the cause of your accident


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## woodbrains (22 Mar 2015)

Hello,

I'm pretty sure that Steve knows that Perspex is the wrong stuff for guards, so I doubt it is that material. I must say though, when ever 'custom' guarding set ups are used, you have to be darn sure that they are not in themselves a safety issue. If anyone is unsure about replacing guards with shop made ones, better they leave the standard ones in place and use an alternative machine to do the task. I very seldom rip timber on a tablesaw any more, finding a bandsaw often better and less frought. I know many people have limited space in their home workshops, myself included, so I can see the attraction of enabling the tablesaw to do multiple tasks. I spent a lot of time in the US too, and there the tablesaw is almost treated like a universal machine, with some horrible safety issues! I would always make space for another machine, if that machine was better suited to the task, or just use hand tools. Let's face it, many of use just need a tiny excuse to get more kit anyway, so a safety matter is probably the best of all. 

Bevelling on a bandsaw and finishing with a long hand plane would be my preferred method of doing this job, though I have crammed a small spindle moulded in my tiny shop and actually find bevelling on that to be safer and more convenient than doing it on a tablesaw. That might seem bizarre to some, but modern spindles are so benign now and well guarded, that they do feel calmer and safer to do that task than the TS. 

Hope Steve's hand heals soon. Get back on the horse soon though, don't let this incident worry you into inactivity.

Mike.


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## Graham Orm (22 Mar 2015)

Hope you're feeling better today Steve. Horrible experience especially when you thought you were taking care.


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

woodbrains":1nymko33 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Steve knows that Perspex is the wrong stuff for guards, so I doubt it is that material. .....


Looks to me (and behaved) like perspex. The material wasn't the main issue (though thinner/weaker would be better) - it was the flimsy attachment.


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## woodpig (22 Mar 2015)

"Perspex" is Acrylic and not suitable for guards, it's far too brittle. Polycarbonate or PETG are both clear plastics readily avalable that are far more suitable for the task.


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## mseries (22 Mar 2015)

There is so much valuable information in this thread. Sorry to learn of your accident though Steve.


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## rafezetter (22 Mar 2015)

I'm really glad this wasn't more serious Steve, it's definitely cemented whether to have a safety guard system on my homemade table saw and that story about losing a finger to mitre cut wood is something I would NEVER have thought could happen - a nasty cut maybe but removal? WoW. Needle in the finger.. yeah, you're more man that I am 

I've also been guilty of leaving cut waste on the outfeed, never again. EVER...

Many thanks Steve for sharing this extremely sobering reminder that even the best of us can have this happen.


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

I had to look up "Suva" guard I wasn't sure what they are. What does SUVA stand for?
They look like a really bad idea to me. 
1 they are mounted remotely and hence will be wobbly, with the potential of hitting the blade (as happened here with Steve's). 
2 If they do touch the blade the flimsy linkage means they can be pushed or pulled out of alignment with the risk of getting snatched up (ditto Steve's)
3 They don't move with the blade so will often be out of alignment, with risk as above
4 They can be mounted well above the blade, leaving it exposed.
5 They are wide and bulky making things more difficult with push sticks etc.

Non of these apply to a crown guard, which is obviously a lot safer and more convenient in every way.


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## pip1954 (22 Mar 2015)

Hi Steve
looks like you had a very near miss , it happens so quick the blink of an eye it is all over seconds to do ages to repair.
hope you mend quickly
all the best
phil


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## n0legs (22 Mar 2015)

How has the blade lost 4 teeth?
Is it a Freud blade, looks like it? 
Can you tell if the braze has failed at the joint and could this have been the cause? It's just thought but they must be going at quite a bit when they've let go.
Is there anyone who could work out the speed and force of tct tooth flying off a blade?


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

n0legs":4wbxe5o2 said:


> How has the blade lost 4 teeth?
> Is it a Freud blade, looks like it?
> Can you tell if the braze has failed at the joint and could this have been the cause? It's just thought but they must be going at quite a bit when they've let go.
> Is there anyone who could work out the speed and force of tct tooth flying off a blade?


A mate of mine got a TS tct tip in the eye. It went right in and had to be removed with an operation. Luckily it had missed lens etc and just punctured the white.
He had all safety stuff in place but somehow it had broken off and ricoched off the table.
Perhaps he wasn't wearing goggles. It's a long time ago I can't remember.


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## woodpig (22 Mar 2015)

A friend of mine works in a D&T department in a school. The only major piece of equipment they don't have is a table saw - I used to wonder why!


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

Had a quick google: there are lots of suva guards around. 

http://scosarg.com/suva-s315-circular-s ... 27175.html

Very expensive and very dangerous IMHO. The illusion of protection is worse than no protection at all. 
Steve is case in point - without the guard he would have been a lot more careful and wouldn't have hurt his finger or been at risk of losing an eye from flying TCT tips.
The worst form of gadgetry.


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## doctor Bob (22 Mar 2015)

I have an overhead guard on my saw (altendorf) it's rock solid as it's on 3" steel mounting. I don't like the idea of flimsey ones.





Your fence is too long as well, I don't understand why people use long fences, middle of the blade and no further, no pro shop I know of uses a long fence.
Was the blade sharp? a blunt blade is very dangerous on bevelled cuts.

Strange you think the fence should be on the left, I've only ever seen fences on the right on commercial saws.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

Thank you for all the comments, guys. As usual, some sound sense and some nonsense.

The guard is made from, IIRC, PE. I can't remember if it is HDPE or LDPE, but most definitely not acrylic. It would not have survived if it was, it would have been in a million pieces. Mine covers the blade much better than the crown guard that came with it, which was small, impossible - and I do mean impossible - to adjust properly and could actually fall onto the blade. This one can't. It covers the blade at both sides completely, as well as above and is taller than the blade, so it hits the table before it can touch the blade. It's not flimsy at all, but the support arms were not designed to withstand sideways forces and that most definitely is a weakness that needs addressing.

I went down to have a look this morning and I now know what happened. It was as I suspected, the guard making contact with the blade. That is my fault, it was set in the wrong place relative to the saw slot. It's because I recently modified it to remove an annoying glitch. It doesn't matter when doing normal cutting, but when tilted, the blade is too close to the cover. I must have pushed the cover in slightly with my pushstick. The back rising teeth picked up the back of the cover so that the front was brought into contact with the teeth. The fact that it survived in one piece, albeit damaged, is testament to its robustness, I think. The swing arms are deliberate. They allow the cover to rise above the work as, and only as, the workpiece travels over the blade. It drops down at the front as soon as the wood goes past. It means that there is always something between me and the teeth. Always. It works superbly under normal circumstances.

I think the only flaw was the positioning of it. I might make the swing arms out of steel rather than wood and I need to beef up the fixing points of the fence shoe support, but otherwise I shall rebuild it just as it was. Except for its lateral positioning, of course.

I'm really rather pleased that I now understand what was wrong, although I still don't know which bit of it hit me, the guard or the pushstick. 

BTW, Bob, I was using a short fence and the blade was sharp (at least, I hadn't had any other indications to the contrary - although it isn't any more...). And my point about putting the fence on the left is for bevel cuts on right-tilt saws - only for that - so that neither the workpiece nor the off-rip get trapped between the underside of the blade and the fence.

So I shall put it all right tomorrow. I do have a spare blade (yes, it is a Freud), so I can carry on, but all my other blades, half a dozen or so, have gone, including a rather nice DW crosscut blade and a FTG one that was perfect for splining mitres. So I shall have to either buy a replacement (not available in the UK AFAIAA) or see if the saw doctor can bring it back to life. It's not seen a great deal of use and I do like it. Unfortunately, the saw doctor is a much greater distance away than he used to be, and I went only last week.

Two other points:
1. SUVA means something in Swiss:
http://www.suva.ch/english/
It's the initials of an insurance company. The style of guard is one they are happy to insure against, so they, at least think the design is not fatally flawed. 

2. My finger is fine today, thank you. The nail is a bit tender if I press it, but it's not needed a dressing, let alone troubling the busy people at A&E. It's just a bit bruised and scraped. Actually one of the other abrasions has given me more trouble today than the nail. It's just on the inside of my finger, so I catch it every time I pick something up.

I've learned something from this, and if it has helped anyone else then, well, I won't say that it has been worth it, but every cloud, eh?

Jacob, you can buy me a commiseration pint on Thursday.

PS Why are saw doctors called saw doctors? They deal with teeth, they should surely be saw dentists ???


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Mar 2015)

Just one point of clarification please. It's been mentioned that off cuts left on the table can cross the table and get flung at the user causing undesired amputations. By that I presume we mean that the off cuts are "dancing" across the table caused by the vibrations of it in use?


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

I don't think so Bob, at least not on my saw.
It's more like the incoming one pushing against the last one that wasn't cleared away. That gets pushed, turned, twizzled and generally moved about in an uncontrolled way and sooner or later one gets picked up by the blade. It's particularly a risk if cross-cutting and the offcuts are short, light bits that you cannot easily pull away each time.
S

PS I do apologise. I've just had to remove a grocer's apostrophe. Unforgivable. That's two embarrassments in two days. I hope that things don't always come in threes...


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## lurker (22 Mar 2015)

doctor Bob":2zg2aovj said:


> Your fence is too long as well, I don't understand why people use long fences, middle of the blade and no further, no pro shop I know of uses a long fence.
> 
> Strange you think the fence should be on the left, I've only ever seen fences on the right on commercial saws.



Bob the working part of Steve's fence protrudes no further than the middle of the blade, difficult to see from the photo but I assure you that is the case.

Regarding the fence side, have another read of what Steve says in the opening post.


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## custard (22 Mar 2015)

As Steve said. 

I use one of these to shunt off-cuts out of the way, except it doesn't always work, sometimes I forget, and with an angled cut it probably wouldn't work even if I remembered to use it.

http://uk.feldershop.com/en/Workshop/Sa ... gnets.html

The sad reality is that stopping the saw, waiting for the blade to come to a complete halt, clearing away each individual off-cut, then re-starting the saw and moving on to the next workpiece, would crush productivity. If you've got a thousand window frame components that have all been machined over length and now need 50mm crosscutting off the end, well, making a profit means most commercial saw operators would argue they don't have a choice but to let the off-cuts pile up. That's why Peter's post was such a shocker, everyone does it and I never dreamed the outcome could be so serious. The worst i'd have thought might happen is a relatively small off-cut being thrown backwards, but well to your right hand side. Peter's post shows the off-cut can come across the saw blade and hit the operator with enough force to amputate a finger.


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":2159vjof said:


> .....Mine covers the blade much better than the crown guard that came with it, which was small, impossible - and I do mean impossible - to adjust properly and could actually fall onto the blade. This one can't.


Er - it did though didn't it?


> ... It's not flimsy at all,


Hmm, like the curates egg - excellent in parts. :roll: 
I'd look more closely at getting a proper crown guard, firmly fixed to a riving knife.


> Jacob, you can buy me a commiseration pint on Thursday.


Oh all right then! I expect you will need a straw. :lol:


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## woodbrains (22 Mar 2015)

custard":1owkacg5 said:


> The sad reality is that stopping the saw, waiting for the blade to come to a complete halt, clearing away each individual off-cut, then re-starting the saw and moving on to the next workpiece, would crush productivity. If you've got a thousand window frame components that have all been machined over length and now need 50mm crosscutting off the end, well, making a profit means most commercial saw operators would argue they don't have a choice but to let the off-cuts pile up. That's why Peter's post was such a shocker, everyone does it and I never dreamed the outcome could be so serious. The worst i'd have thought might happen is a relatively small off-cut being thrown backwards, but well to your right hand side. Peter's post shows the off-cut can come across the saw blade and hit the operator with enough force to amputate a finger.



Hello,

The right tool for the job! A chop/mitre saw in this case. Productivity is never an excuse for poor safety, but the correct tool can restore efficiency and safety.

Mike.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

Jacob":2idxiuqi said:


> [Er - it did though didn't it?



No it didn't, not at all. It was pushed in from the side. It's not at all the same thing. This was due to my imperfect implementation of the design, not a flaw in the design itself.

In my defence, I made this in a hurry in order to finish one of my DVDs. It was a Mk2 version of one I'd used for years, which was very good but I could see how it could be improved. I was facing eviction from my home at the time, was mentally ill and not doing very much very well at all. My only thought was to finish filming before the end of the world came.

Now I can see the weaknesses. The link where the arms meet the boom should have been more robust, as should the mounting of the support shoe to the fence, but the problem here was only the positioning of the cover WRT the blade. A small thing, but one which produced all this mess. All the rest was good, and I really do think that the fact that I have only superficial cuts and bruises in the face of what it could have been is testament to how well it did work, not a manifestation of how inadequate it is.

If you had seen the original crown guard you would agree, I'm sure.


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## ayuce (22 Mar 2015)

Steve regarding your experience on woodworking and safety, it's pretty frightening. Just wonder if you can find where the broken teeth went.BTW if push stick came to contact with blade, should't it just be cut safely ?


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

The teeth could be anywhere. They are quite small. They may well be inside the saw.
The PS would be cut cleanly if it was presented in a controlled manner, but if just thrown in by the violence of everything else that was going on, it would just get chewed, which is, in fact, what happened.

This has really brought home to me the strength of the forces that are present in this sort of operation.


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## n0legs (22 Mar 2015)

Steve, is this design of guard and support arm in any of your videos as a "how to make it" ?
I hope you get where I'm going with this question.


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## ayuce (22 Mar 2015)

I heard some devices for elderly people, like alarm button, auto call on fall detection etc. Might be usefull for the ones working alone. Just an example:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/www-elderlysos- ... B00BHZ71I6


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

n0legs":39klwluq said:


> Steve, is this design of guard and support arm in any of your videos as a "how to make it" ?
> I hope you get where I'm going with this question.



Strangely enough...

Follow the link in my signature and go to WE8. Or better still, the TS set 

I'd just like to point out that this really was not the point of the thread! But this guard, despite my errors, has saved me from serious injury.


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## n0legs (22 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":ikp587s5 said:


> Strangely enough...
> 
> Follow the link in my signature and go to WE8.
> 
> I'd just like to point out that this really was not the point of the thread!



Hey sorry Steve that wasn't the intent. I don't want some t*** coming along with "Dear Mr Maskery blaa blaa blaa"


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":7yei1z9v said:


> n0legs":7yei1z9v said:
> 
> 
> > Steve, is this design of guard and support arm in any of your videos as a "how to make it" ?
> ...


I hope you are not recommending home made SUVA type guards. They are obviously fundamentally defective.
It should be easy enough to buy a riving knife and crown guard, off the peg, to fit any saw with a couple of bolt holes for the knife. Maybe modify the bolt holes depending on make and model. That's the safe way to do it.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

I disagree, Jacob, I really disagree.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

ayuce":1y2j0f4h said:


> I heard some devices for elderly people,


Oi!


Closer to the truth than you may think.
S


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## n0legs (22 Mar 2015)

Could a mod view and start removing some of the comments. 
Let's just keep this as an accident report/investigation and a "how you doing mate" thread.
Take some of mine down if they are inappropriate, I don't mind.


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## Peter Sefton (22 Mar 2015)

I didn't question my mate to much on the exact circumstances of the accident as I was showing the students around his production workshop. But I do know one of the jobs going through the workshop was some MDF veneered hexagon pyramids. The sections for this would have been cut on the sliding carriage of either his Wadkin or Altendorf both guarded as Bobs. Veneered MDF with angled edges can be very sharp!

I would assume the operator was working to the left of the saw blade operating the sliding table. The off cuts would be on the right hand side. If they are not cleared away from the saw they build up and after a few cuts they begin to rub the back of the saw until the uprising teeth pick them up and through them. 

The problem may have happened when he came to the RH side to either turn the saw off or clear away the waste. Some saws have an off switch on the LH side which negates the need to enter the danger zone. The worst thing to do is to lean down to turn off the saw and then put your face in the danger zone. I use the push stick to turn off the saw.

Two ways of keeping more productive and clearing the waste is to use a dust extraction hood with a cage over it to pull the waste away from the blade until it gets inefficient. Or using an air gun to blow the waste away, but this creates air born dust and could lead to you putting the air line into blade.

This is one of the reasons for the 10 second breaking regulations to encourage users to stop the saw and clean waste away in a timely manner. A push stick should always be used to remove the waste even if you *think* the saw has stopped.

Cheers Peter

Edited don't Know my left from right


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## woodbrains (22 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":xjjoqinq said:


> I'd just like to point out that this really was not the point of the thread! But this guard, despite my errors, has saved me from serious injury.



Hello, I don't want to sound as if I'm knocking you personally, I'm not, but do you not see the paradox of this statement?

Mike.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

OK Mike, I see where you are coming from, but no, actually, I don't think there is a paradox. This has saved me from serious injury. I do accept that it has caused me minor injury, and serious injury to my pride, perhaps, given my profile on the subject, but I do stand by it. I have received minor injuries due to my imperfect implementation of a good design. I've not received serious injuries, which I most certainly could have.

Hey, I may have met my match in pedantry!


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## Peter Sefton (22 Mar 2015)

I don't think nitpicking is a constructive way to look at Steve's experience which he was brave enough to share with us all. I am sure we have all learnt lessons from this unfortunate accident and I would like to thank Steve for showing us.

Most of the time we are lucky, sometimes we run out of luck.

Cheers Peter


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## PAC1 (22 Mar 2015)

woodbrains":hvv9y408 said:


> custard":hvv9y408 said:
> 
> 
> > The sad reality is that stopping the saw, waiting for the blade to come to a complete halt, clearing away each individual off-cut, then re-starting the saw and moving on to the next workpiece, would crush productivity. If you've got a thousand window frame components that have all been machined over length and now need 50mm crosscutting off the end, well, making a profit means most commercial saw operators would argue they don't have a choice but to let the off-cuts pile up. That's why Peter's post was such a shocker, everyone does it and I never dreamed the outcome could be so serious. The worst i'd have thought might happen is a relatively small off-cut being thrown backwards, but well to your right hand side. Peter's post shows the off-cut can come across the saw blade and hit the operator with enough force to amputate a finger.
> ...



Not necessarily several years ago I was mitring some cove mould for a side board and cut the end of a piece at 45 the off cut took flight and inbedded itself in my thumb. Two stitches


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

Peter Sefton":3ac3oer7 said:


> Some saws have an off switch on the RH side which negates the need to enter the danger zone. The worst thing to do is to lean down to turn off the saw and then put your face in the danger zone.



Peter, do you mean this? Do you not mean the LH side? I can understand that.

My switch is fixed on the RH side. I've looked at the possibility of moving it, but it looks too complicated for me with my 13A fuse replacement skills, so I have built a kick-stop so that I don't have to reach down and across to it. It works really well and I enjoy the feeling that there is someone's face on it every time I use it.

No-one on this forum need fret about the identity...

S


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## Peter Sefton (22 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":3ap9cbh4 said:


> Peter Sefton":3ap9cbh4 said:
> 
> 
> > Some saws have an off switch on the RH side which negates the need to enter the danger zone. The worst thing to do is to lean down to turn off the saw and then put your face in the danger zone.
> ...



You are right Steve, I meant left hand side!

I will edit the post, good idea about the foot switch.

Cheers Peter


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## lurker (22 Mar 2015)

Peter Sefton":286ox0iv said:


> Most of the time we are lucky, sometimes we run out of luck.



Unless you are Jacob and then you are so bluddy perfect it never goes wrong :roll:


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## iNewbie (22 Mar 2015)

lurker":3meulfsv said:


> Peter Sefton":3meulfsv said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the time we are lucky, sometimes we run out of luck.
> ...



You think a kickback hasn't happened and a lump of wood hasn't hit him on the head in his career?  


Its times like these you count your blessings. I know I would.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

Come on guys. Let's not let this get personal. I don't want this thread to get locked. I think there is a lot of good sense spoken here, whether we agree with everything or not.
S


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## iNewbie (22 Mar 2015)

Its a bit of banter steve - no harm no foul.


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## Jacob (22 Mar 2015)

lurker":10h196f3 said:


> Peter Sefton":10h196f3 said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the time we are lucky, sometimes we run out of luck.
> ...


Goes wrong quite often. I've had a few narrow escapes too. I'm a bit paranoid about safety as I do seem to know a few people who have had some nasty experiences and it's taken me some time to work out my own approach. I haven't had anything kick back after the first couple of scary ones - pieces shot off like cross-bow bolts to embed themselves in the plaster board.
Not bluddy perfect just bluddy cautious

These are best IMHO. Simple and secure, tightly fixed close up behind the blade so even if it catches the blade it'll stay in place. Dust extractor on top, Small footprint so it doesn't get in the way. Strong enough to hold down an escaping piece kicked up


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## Paul Chapman (22 Mar 2015)

Hope you and your saw are both feeling better soon, Steve  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

That's not bad, Jacob, not bad. But not perfect either.

It's not available, AFAIAA, as an aftermarket accessory to most TSs. Great if it were, but it isn't. At least not to my knowledge. Happy to be proven wrong.

It has good protection from above, and a surprising number of injuries are caused by people falling onto the blade. I guess it is because we are all old fat middle-aged geezers who are in in our dotage and have a heart attack while we are excited by the smell of burning oak.

Hey, ladies, don't give me a hard time on that, it was a light-hearted stereotypical jest, not a gender-political-ageist point. OK?

But it does nothing to stop anyone from putting their fingers to the blade from the front. The wood can get in unimpeded, so can fingers.

With a guard like mine, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make contact with the blade without making contact with the guard first. 

Yes, other weaknesses have been exposed, but in execution, not in design.

Trumps.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

PS The second pint is on me.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Mar 2015)

Just a pic update, as of this evening:










As I say, I would have preferred it not to have happened, but in the grand scheme of things, it's OK. Could have been worse. A lot worse.


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## DennisCA (23 Mar 2015)

I think the overhead suva design is the best compromise of them all. Because it's the one that's least likely to be removed and then just forgotten about afterwards. The wide ones are clumsy but they are usually made so because they support a proper DC hood that needs a good diameter hose, and so that the blade can tilt inside the hood. Mine is all sturdy metal and won't be going anywhere. I just lift it up a bit when working with a jig for instance, or a sled. I'd have to disassemble the crownguard everytime I used a jig or sled or did a no through cut and I know for me that happens enough that I simply wouldn't use the thing after a while. 

With this design it has to be lifted up a bit so you can get push sticks in there so it's not as effective in that sense I guess, but still pretty good and covers the blade so it's hard to get your hands near it, and if you fall on it it will provide more protection than that plastic crownguard. And it'll be there for 100% of operations as opposed to being removed and put back (hopefully).

If there was one improvement I'd make it would be making it from polycarbonate so it's all see through. Or add PC windows to the metal frame of my current guard.


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## ayuce (23 Mar 2015)

I'm thinking of making a carbon copy of my toy saw's green ABS (?) blade guard or SUVA style home made guard. I'll use metal sheet (as frame) + polycarbonate/lexan , or fully from PC if i can. I want some transparency to see front of blade. Is it safer to leave as it is ? Any comment on that ?


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## Jacob (23 Mar 2015)

ayuce":2ysyv6kc said:


> I'm thinking of making a carbon copy of my toy saw's green ABS (?) blade guard or SUVA style home made guard. I'll use metal sheet (as frame) + polycarbonate/lexan , or fully from PC if i can. I want some transparency to see front of blade. Is it safer to leave as it is ? Any comment on that ?


Transparency difficult - it'll either get dusty (immediately) or just scratched up. Don't bother.
Crown guards; _"not available, AFAIAA, as an aftermarket accessory to most TSs"_? They come as standard with many machines so I presume are available as spare parts.


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## DennisCA (23 Mar 2015)

Lots of PC hoods out there, factory as well as homemade, that's stood up to the test of time when you look around.


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## PAC1 (23 Mar 2015)

After market identical version (well the same colour) http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-in ... rown-guard


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## lurker (23 Mar 2015)

Chaps

I am gong to open a post in the jigs section so folks can post options we can consider.


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## Steve Maskery (23 Mar 2015)

PAC, fair enough, I stand corrected.
But I have to say, given that the saw had something similar originally (no DX spout and die-cast metal, but otherwise that type) I would never go back after using mine.
It doesn't cover the front or side of the blade, only the top. It does not rise and fall as the wood enters and leaves. Perhaps this particular accident would not have happened, but blade/finger contact would be much more likely. I prefer something between me and the sharp bits at all times.


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## Jacob (23 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":xl3m9n0k said:


> .....but blade/finger contact would be much more likely.


Not if you use TWO push sticks. Finger contact becomes extremely improbable.


> I prefer something between me and the sharp bits at all times.


Me too; TWO push sticks!!

PS cutting that bevel would be safest with blade tilted towards the fence (as they all do) but with a hold-down feather attached to the fence to stop the workpiece getting lifted up. This might mean clamping the far end of the fence too, to stop it lifting. Plus crown guard, push sticks etc.


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## siggy_7 (23 Mar 2015)

First and foremost, glad to see that Steve has not suffered more serious injury than he did. Top marks for sharing his experience also. I had a recent unfortunate incident with my TS that I have not had the courage to come on here and discuss, mainly because of the self-righteous nature of the responses I am sure that would elicit. Off the back of this, I have bought Steve's Table Saw DVD set with the explicit aim of building a SUVA type guard for my saw.

Aside from a couple of safety deficiencies that Steve has pointed out with a typical crown guard fixed to the riving knife, there is one big problem with this type of guard - they prevent anything other than severing cuts. The riving knife has to extend above the height of the blade to support them without losing depth of cut, so if you have this type of guard normally fitted then you have to take the guard off (normally easy) but also the riving knife needs to be adjusted/removed and replaced with one that matches the top of the blade. My riving knife wouldn't adjust down far enough, so I made a different one that I have set with the top of the blade. Removing and realigning an RK is a pain on most saws, so in practice the fact that these types of guards prevent a lot of cuts from being made means they are taken off and never re-fitted. Anything that is a significant operational inconvenience conflicts with the realities of people who want to get things done. The difficulty in re-fitting the RK increases the risk that in practice they are never used. If people want to be in denial about reality that's their perogative, but it doesn't advance safety - what is needed is a guard that works for the full range of cuts that will be attempted, or a number of guards that are easy to swap out that work well for the different operations. Crown guards fail both of these tests.

I really don't see what the problem with a sturdily mounted and correctly set up SUVA guard is. As far as I can tell they are standard on the better, more industrial machinery on offer from the likes of Altendorf, Felder et al, so they must have something going for them. Steve has clearly come a cropper because his own guard wasn't adjusted correctly, not because of a shortcoming in the concept.

I have a sliding table format type saw, which only tilts right but can only have the fence on the right. Someone mentioned a jig that improves the safety of a bevelled cut for people with this limitation - if they would be so kind as to put a link into this thread I would be grateful. I would always use a short fence for this operation anyway, but this thread has got me thinking that may not necessarily be enough.


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## Graham Orm (23 Mar 2015)

When you think about it, the only thing either guard will do is stop you landing on top of the blade. Neither a crown or SUVA will stop flying debris fired at the force that a kick back or similar is sent.
The whole idea of a table saw is ludicrously dangerous. (I own one). I remember taking a 12" two stroke stone cutter to a mechanic for repair. He'd never seen one before and said "So it's a moped engine with a spinning blade instead of a wheel and you use it free hand? Are you F****n insane?).

It seemed normal practice for me to use the thing, but his observation set me thinking. This thread seems to have evolved into how best not to damage yourself whilst doing something 'insane'.


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## lurker (23 Mar 2015)

siggy_7":1klmus6t said:


> . Top marks for sharing his experience also. I had a recent unfortunate incident with my TS that I have not had the courage to come on here and discuss, mainly because of the self-righteous nature of the responses I am sure that would elicit. .



I agree it was brave of him and its a shame you felt the way you did about your own incident, although I would have done the same as you and for the reasons you state.


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## Steve Maskery (23 Mar 2015)

Hey! That's two things that Jacob and I agree on! Better setup and two pushsticks!
I'm looking forward to your round on Thursday. The second one is on me.

I still maintain that the guard itself is good, though. Today I have scrounged some PETG (a developed version of polycarbonate, apparently), whose full title is *P*olywhatalongnam*ET*hishas*G*ot. I think, although it may or may not be free, that I have also got some steel for the arms. The current ones are laminates, but I knew at the time that steel would be better. But as I have explained, I was under a certain amount of stress at the time. Otherwise, the rebuild will be the same. I'll just take a bit more care over where exactly I mount it.

S


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## Jacob (23 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":2ii4n8ut said:


> ...
> I still maintain that the guard itself is good, though. ...


Hmm, dunno. I might change my mind after a few pints.


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## RobinBHM (23 Mar 2015)

Bevelled cuts are not so easy to guard.

My panel saw has a large arm with an overhead guard, which raises and lowers via a lever. All very good but the guard has to be changed for a much wider one to accommodate the blade when tilted. It works, but obscures the view, restricts fence adjustment and makes the use of push sticks awkward.

A crown guard mounted on the rk will tilt with the blade, so could be an advantage in this situation, although I suppose the tilting will make the guard lower on the fence side so could be in the way


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## Flynnwood (23 Mar 2015)

OK - serious question.

In this instance that Steve had, what would be the potential problem(s) if the piece was PULLED instead of PUSHED?

Discuss?


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## PAC1 (23 Mar 2015)

Flynnwood":mqey0uji said:


> OK - serious question.
> 
> In this instance that Steve had, what would be the potential problem(s) if the piece was PULLED instead of PUSHED?
> 
> Discuss?


You cannot keep the wood against the fence when pulling. You also tend to lift the wood. Both mean no control


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## PAC1 (23 Mar 2015)

A SUVA mounted on the RK might be an answer as long as it does not reduce the depth of cut. Scott and Seargent say theirs does not reduce the depth of cut. It certainly looks an improvement on the flimsy crown guard on my Felder


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## Graham Orm (23 Mar 2015)

This is interesting. Go to 30 seconds in to see a kick back jamming mechanism. Then to the end to see the gadget that jams the blade if you put a hot dog sausage against it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRygWpXXYJ4


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## Jacob (24 Mar 2015)

siggy_7":1j5ndhzi said:


> ......
> Aside from a couple of safety deficiencies that Steve has pointed out with a typical crown guard fixed to the riving knife, there is one big problem with this type of guard - they prevent anything other than severing cuts.


Yes but you are not really supposed to do anything other than "severing" cuts on a TS. 
Most dangerous is a slot along the grain. These have inherent risk of kick back - most commonly because the wood may distort as it is cut, and nip the blade. Also they risk getting jammed with shavings. The stubby riving knife could make things worse in that respect. 
If you want to do slots you really need a spindle with any of the various slotting devices on offer - wobble saws etc. Basically they cut a wide kerf which can't jam.
Cross cutting slots (housings etc) is safer as they are generally short cuts and you won't get the distortion or the sawdust build up - but the workpiece needs to be very firmly held on a sliding table or sledge of some sort. A suva guide may help here I suppose, but personally I'd simply use long push sticks - and drop the blade down as soon as it is out of use.
Re your accident - we all need to know what happened! It would be your contribution to our safety understanding and you might save someone else from making the same mistake, whatever it was.


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## PAC1 (24 Mar 2015)

Cutting a slot (groove) on a Table saw is permitted if you have a shaw guard and riving knife fitted. The problem is not many TS take a shaw guard these days. You also need a riving knife that does not go higher than the blade. The H&S recommend using an automatic feeder! in place of a shaw guard. I can see how it would reduce the risk of kick back but I am yet to try.


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## Graham Orm (24 Mar 2015)

I googled 'shaw guard' and came up with all sorts, including this, which looks like it would withstand significant abuse from flying bits and would be quick to adjust.


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## PAC1 (24 Mar 2015)

Graham
Yes that is it, but you try finding one like the drawing that you can buy. I like the wooden pieces. Modern ones are made of all metal so no good for the saw. I would make one but my metalwork skills are not up to it.
When I did my apprenticeship we had one that fitted both the spindle and saw.


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## Jacob (24 Mar 2015)

Yes those are shaw guards - but not an ideal set up; they are both fixed to the one column, so if one gets knocked the other also gets loosened. They ought to be fixed separately. If you have the metal spring type you can fit wooden jaws to them.
I prefer a pair of wood feathers - one pressing down clamped to the fence and the other pressing in and clamped to the table.
Better still; a power feed.


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## pcb1962 (24 Mar 2015)

Graham Orm":zbnhcoen said:
 

> I googled 'shaw guard' and came up with all sorts, including this, which looks like it would withstand significant abuse from flying bits and would be quick to adjust.



Is the blade within the guarded area, or to the right of the picture?


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## Graham Orm (24 Mar 2015)

PAC1":41z9meoq said:


> Graham
> Yes that is it, but you try finding one like the drawing that you can buy. I like the wooden pieces. Modern ones are made of all metal so no good for the saw. I would make one but my metalwork skills are not up to it.
> When I did my apprenticeship we had one that fitted both the spindle and saw.



Shouldn't be too hard. It's on my list!


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## Graham Orm (24 Mar 2015)

pcb1962":3lxqb83t said:


> Graham Orm":3lxqb83t said:
> 
> 
> > I googled 'shaw guard' and came up with all sorts, including this, which looks like it would withstand significant abuse from flying bits and would be quick to adjust.
> ...



I would imagine so. Protecting you from landing on it in the event of a slip and from kick back too. You could line the front of it up with the front edge of the blade so you can see what's happening and feather boards as previously mentioned will keep everything in place.


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## mindthatwhatouch (24 Mar 2015)

Steve Maskery":2ev4eq9t said:


>



Steve,

I am trying to understand, what went on with the wooden upright support that has split. I take it this is a result of you moving the guard into the saw blade and this causing the support to crack, or could it be that the flex here allowed the guard to contact the blade? Is it an option to stiffen this, maybe make it out of metal?

Glad you are still in one piece, and thank you for sharing this (I speak as a table saw complete newbie)

Tony


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## Flynnwood (24 Mar 2015)

PAC1":35zz3q12 said:


> Flynnwood":35zz3q12 said:
> 
> 
> > OK - serious question.
> ...



Thanks. I would like to know though, why you could not use 2 pull sticks instead of push sticks. An appropriate featherboard would keep the wood from lifting?

i.e. If the fence ends at the gullet of the first tooth, and the 2 PULLsticks are beyond that (further back), why would that not work and remove all risk?

It may be a stupid question (I don't have a TS to try this out on yet) ................ but it's surely about directional forces?


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## siggy_7 (25 Mar 2015)

Jacob":27xal1ha said:


> Yes but you are not really supposed to do anything other than "severing" cuts on a TS.



This is precisely the sort of thing I meant when I said that some people are in denial about reality. The fact is that lots of people use their table saws for non-severing cuts. I am not defending the plethora of bad practice promoted by some amateurs online, but there are lots of examples where table saws are used in this manner. The main examples that come to mind are cutting box joints and tenons. Both of these cuts are often made on the table saw, and the type of riving knife with crown guard attached prevents it. Manufacturers like Incra will even sell you jigs specifically designed to do these singular tasks; these manufacturers have to comply with the safety standards of the regulatory environment in which they sell. So if the UK government says it's ok for Incra to sell you a box joint jig, you should recognise that people are going to buy that jig and use it even if you don't think it's a safe/sensible thing to do. As removal/re-fitting of the over-tall RK is a right pain on most if not all saws, this inconvenience is a substantial short-coming of this type of guard, and something more flexible is needed (i.e. an overhead guard rigidly supported, but not attached to the saw assembly).


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## Jacob (25 Mar 2015)

siggy_7":16gzgt9l said:


> ..... As removal/re-fitting of the over-tall RK is a right pain on most if not all saws,


No prob on mine (Mini max combi) I just slide the table forwards and there are two nuts. 30 secs maximum.


> this inconvenience is a substantial short-coming of this type of guard, ....


It's a trade off - on the other hand it's a very effective guard - much better than the suva type and relatively fool proof - it stays close to the blade and moves with the adjustment. It's just about indestructible. I doubt there have been many finger accidents with the crown guard in place.
And of course when cutting slots/housings over the blade arguably you don't need a guard so much as the blade isn't extended far and is partially covered by the work piece, as long as you use push sticks and drop the blade down as soon as out of use.
There are some very daft gadgets out there Many of them just too clever by half. All the non crown guard type have the same inherent fault; they can be wrongly adjusted i.e. *they are not fool proof! *
They nearly all have a second fault in that they are mounted from the side so accidental contact with the blade will skew them over and jam them tight. To avoid this they have to have plenty of space around - sometimes wide enough to get your hand in too close, particularly if wrongly adjusted in the first place.

PS I lifted this picture from the net. It looks just like my Minimax except this one has only one nut. Even quicker!


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## PAC1 (25 Mar 2015)

It is a trade off. A crown guard can be wrongly adjusted for instance if you do not wind the bade down as low as possible part of the blade can be exposed. A suva provides a complete cover for the blade when it is spinning but not cutting wood whereas a crown guard leaves the sides and back exposed. It is also possible for a crown guard to touch the blade and unless very well fixed to the RK be pulled off. A suva probably gives better dust control as it encloses the blade. My crown guard sometimes acts more like a chute to ensure I swallow the maximum amount of dust and is useless when trimming boards to width as it cannot capture dust going sideways.
They both have pros and cons


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## Jacob (25 Mar 2015)

PAC1":o9juc864 said:


> ..It is also possible for a crown guard to touch the blade and unless very well fixed to the RK be pulled off. ...


Hmm, not really - it's mounted very rigidly in line and behind - if it touches the blade it'll just lose a bit of material. That's why they can be set so close to the blade. You'd have to swipe it with a hammer to get anything worse to happen.


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## PAC1 (25 Mar 2015)

Jacob":3h04j4iw said:


> PAC1":3h04j4iw said:
> 
> 
> > ..It is also possible for a crown guard to touch the blade and unless very well fixed to the RK be pulled off. ...
> ...



A very rigidly mounted suva and a very rigidly mounted crown guard will be equal to the task. But a less rigid crown guard and a less rigid suva will cause problems. I have seen less rigid crown guards. for instance on my Felder the supplied crown guard is attached to the RK by a bolt as per yours but the RK has an open ended slot in the top of it rather than hole to fit the bolt thus with the best will in the world rigid is not a phrase I would use to describe the connection. The theory is the light crown guard detaches rather than dragging the RK onto the blade. I can also remove the Crown Guard in seconds for when I lower the blade below the table. But as a safety device it is not what you expect from Felder.
You can get a suva that attaches to the RK rather than fixed by some side extended arm. Potentially best of both worlds


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## siggy_7 (25 Mar 2015)

Jacob":378mbv9h said:


> Siggy_7":378mbv9h said:
> 
> 
> > As removal/re-fitting of the over-tall RK is a right pain on most if not all saws,
> ...



Good for you! If only all saws were the same. On my Record, taking the knife off is equally fast - a single 16mm nut. It's very easy to drop the nut and washers into the dust collection guard of course, but aside from that it's easy. Putting it back on is a bit of a faff without dropping the bits. What takes an age is re-aligning the RK. Mine has three grub screws that control alignment - so as soon as you tighten the nut, it changes the alignment. You then have to slacken off the nut enough to make an adjustment, tighten up again, slacken adjust tighten etc... It's a pig of a job, principally because the process of tightening the nut changes the alignment. So even if you had it perfectly aligned, in the process of taking it off and back on again you really struggle to get it aligned properly without making some adjustment. This style of RK is even worse because of how wide they are at the top - this makes alignment with the blade as viewed from above even more critical. What's the difference between the thickness of an RK and a blade kerf - 0.6, maybe 0.8mm? Trying to get a knife aligned over an 80mm height and 100+mm length is a nightmare. All in all, I hate the RK on my saw with a passion and anything I can do to avoid having to alter the adjustment or remove it I will. Hence the attraction of a guard not supported on the riving knife. With other saws of course, your mileage may vary.






^ My nemesis of table saw adjustment.


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## Jacob (25 Mar 2015)

siggy_7":23to66sq said:


> Jacob":23to66sq said:
> 
> 
> > Siggy_7":23to66sq said:
> ...


Bad design. It needs two nuts then it's dead easy - you just hold it in place and tighten the nuts.


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## blackrodd (25 Mar 2015)

Graham Orm":2db49cwn said:


> I googled 'shaw guard' and came up with all sorts, including this, which looks like it would withstand significant abuse from flying bits and would be quick to adjust.




That is the original and genuine shaw guard, easy to set up and use.
The wooden pressure blocks that you see, are secured with spring steel strips to the main frame and being slotted at the end, helps getting the ideal pressure.
The cutters, or wobble saw etc, are behind the guard, wouldn't be any good to be on either the left or right hand sides.
Regards Rodders


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## siggy_7 (25 Mar 2015)

Jacob":4bre43aw said:


> Bad design. It needs two nuts then it's dead easy - you just hold it in place and tighten the nuts.



How do you adjust the alignment then? Shims?


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## Jacob (25 Mar 2015)

siggy_7":itkf2i8p said:


> Jacob":itkf2i8p said:
> 
> 
> > Bad design. It needs two nuts then it's dead easy - you just hold it in place and tighten the nuts.
> ...


Non needed on mine. It just drops on to its bolts. Factory set though I expect I could alter it if I had to. I can set it a smidgin higher if the crown guard is too low for the depth of cut. There are two settings for the guard - if you have a scoring blade installed it'll go forwards to cover it.

PS my riving knife has a slot - I don't need to remove the nuts n bolts - just loosen them to get it off, finger tighten to keep them in place if I'm not putting it back.
I think yours are difficult because the machine maker is trying to tell you something i.e. don't do it!


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