# Suggestions for future heating system



## robotmannick (22 Oct 2021)

Hi all,

I was hoping to canvas your opinions on what kind of heating system I should install in my house.

I currently have a 40kW biomass boiler which provides all heating and hot water for a 6-bedroom 220m2 house. Happy to elaborate on the biomass boiler if anyone is interested, but the short version was that it made financial sense whilst I was receiving the RHI, but came at the cost of a lot of work and not insignificant inconvenience in terms of forward planning of when to light it etc. Now that the RHI payments have finished, I'm wondering what system would be best for the future. Thoughts so far:

1) Keep the biomass boiler. No installation cost, but the cost of logs, combined with the physical work (and time) required to manage log stores and feed the boiler, not to mention the inconvenience makes this somewhat unappealing.
2) Replace with an oil boiler. Seems like a backwards step - that's what I removed when I installed the biomass boiler. I have an oil tank which I believe to be sound - there is still 100-200 litres of oil in the tank, but given that it's been there for 8ish years, can (should?) I use it with a new boiler? If not, I'll have to arrange for draining of the tank and disposal of the oil. If I'm doing that, maybe I should also replace the tank too as I have no idea what contaminants have collected in there over the years. Probably the cheapest option in terms of installation, albeit not the cheapest to run and and not very green.
3) Replace with an LPG boiler. I'm not overly keen with having a large LPG tank in the garden - I know it's perfectly safe, but I saw a video at work of a BLEV explosion and is scared the bejesus out of me. However, also a relatively cheap option to install, but similarly not very eco-friendly, nor the cheapest to run.
4) Solar thermal. I don't have much South-facing roof space and even if I did, I'd need a pretty large (expensive) collector to heat the whole house. Cheap to run and good eco-credentials though.
5) Air source heat pump. I reckon on spending maybe £15k on this option plus BoJo's £5k grant. I don't have underfloor heating though, so would be reliant on existing radiators. Retrofitting underfloor heating isn't unfeasible as I am renovating parts of the house, but I can see the costs spiralling.
6) Ground source heat pump. I have a garden about the size of a tennis court so could potentially dig trenches for the pipework. Access is limited to about a 1.5m width, so boreholes would require removing a hedge in the back garden and reinstating (not averse to this as there's a prickly one that I'd like to get shot of anyway). I'd guess we're talking £30-£40k though for this option. Maybe the cheapest and greenest option in terms of running cost?

Of course, there may be a combination solution...I have a 3000 litre thermal buffer as part of the current installation. For instance, I can add solar thermal to feed into this which would probably do me during the summer months, then keep the biomass boiler for topping up during the winter.

So then learned folks: what are your thoughts? What would you do and why?


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## Jameshow (22 Oct 2021)

Insulation insulation insulation. 

Whatever you do put insulation top of the list. 

Ashp gshp esp. 

How about a log burner with back boiler? 

Not an expert by any means. 

Cheers James


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## Fitzroy (22 Oct 2021)

Insulate first, with a contractor who knows what they are doing, the devil is in the details.

Non fossil fuel solution as IMHO the cost of these will only go one way over the next 20years, either due to supplydemand or legislation and green tax.

Ground source heat pump is the gold standard and long term boreholes etc are value add to your property but my understanding is you want underfloor heat rather than rads. Air source heat pump is a poor compromise, all the same need for ufch but just a cheaper install cost for a less efficient system.

It is such a tough decision though, a long term investment for the greater good that you may never get the return from or a short term lower install cost that is easier to financially stomach but may feel wrong.


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## Just4Fun (22 Oct 2021)

We have generally been happy with our GSHP installation despite some reliability issues, apparently now sorted. Maybe our experience can provide one or lessons.

The advice to insulate first definitely makes sense. When we got ours in about 2007 we were getting quotes of 30 000 euro and up, which was beyond our budget. Then we discussed it with a plumber who was here for something else and he took a very different view to everyone else. Other people had sized the system based on the size of the house, which is large. This guy looked at the amount of oil we had been burning and calculated the required heat pump size to produce the same output. Based on this he quoted 13 000 euro and we went for that. It seems our house was already well insulated and this cut down the initial installation cost as well as the running cost.

The oft-seen advice to change to under-floor heating, or fit more and/or larger radiators, may or may not be good. The key is the temperature of the water circulating in the system. We already had a lot of rads and the system ran at a maximum of around 55C, even in the coldest winter. This is (just) within the capability of a GSHP so we didn't need to improve the rads, we just added the GSHP to the system.

The choice of horizontal pipe (straight or slinky) or bore hole depends on the site. You need advice from someone knowledgable. Our system uses horizontal pipes but that is what suits us here and may not be the best where you are.

The heating system runs well, and needs no attention on a day-to-day basis. I like that a lot.

Oh, I should mention that I cannot comment on GSHP for hot water. Our GSHP does heating only. That was a design decision when we put the system in. In retrospect it may have been the wrong decision but, for various reasons, it seemed correct at the time.


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Oct 2021)

There are several different needs - I am not convinced one approach meets all needs.

Irrespective of the solution adopted, insulation must be top of the list.

For space heating I would look at combined aircon/heating split units. These are reallly just ASHP without the hot water capability. It is possible to have a single outdoor unit serving several wall mounted indoor units. You get the benefit of cooling in summer if desired.

Like GSHP and ASHP they need a power supply - given your house orientation this could be PV, PV + battery, or mains. A larger system could provide some lighting,cooking(?), appliances.

Hot water could be electric (PV or mains), evacuated tubes or panels, gas cyinder or small ASHP. 

This all gets a bit complex - much depends on the balance you decide between investment vs future running costs. The only high probability is that oil and gas are likely to increase in price.


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## D_W (22 Oct 2021)

I have a split on the add-on part of my house. It's efficient until the temperature gets well below freezing, but I don't think that'll be much of a problem in the UK. 

At freezing or slightly below and anything above, it's a marvel. The only question is whether or not HVAC installers are going to try to rob you selling you one. The local installer here wanted $5500 to install a unit that I found (mitsubishi) for $2200. This would normally be what you'd expect with labor intensive installs, but if you have a typical unit right outside of the living space, there's little to the install and even with mounting the exchange heads on a masonry wall, it only takes an experienced installer a couple of hours.

Since I had a contractor doing the addition, I wasn't allowed to just do my own, and I used his installer ($750) and bought the unit through plumbing supply rather than the territorial (and arrogant and very entitled) factory authorized installer that's in my area. 

7 years so far, no issues and no maintenance. AT the cost of the units, I'll just buy something else to put in its place when it quits.


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## dickm (22 Oct 2021)

Have a slightly similar dilemma; our house is highly insulated (came on a lorry from Sweden) with forced air ventilation and heat recovery. Four bedrooms, big lounge, big kitchen and (heated!!) workshop need about 6kW when it's below freezing. We have a small oil boiler which runs for a couple of hours a day, plus a woodburning stove. So what's the problem? Mainly my age and increasing problems with cancers. The oil boiler will probably see me out, but on its own may struggle a bit, and cutting/splitting logs is getting difficult both from availability and my capability. 
Air source heat pumps strike me as a total con until all electricity is from non-carbon sources. Ground source should be better, but still not all they are cracked up to be.
Maybe I should not have sold that pellet boiler to a member of the forum!!


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## redhunter350 (22 Oct 2021)

Hi I assume Berkeley Gloucestershire ? I am not an expert by any means however my sisters house in Cambridgeshire has ASHP heating and hot water, works very well and was installed about 3/4 years ago. They were in the position of a complete renovation of a 5 bed very well built house. 

As has been said insulation is clearly of the utmost importance and although the house was well insulated they had this upgraded even more, in my humble opinion underfloor heating is also essential because it works well at lower water temperatures -- I may be wrong but thats my feeling.


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## eribaMotters (22 Oct 2021)

This has got me thinking. In the next year or two we will be moving and knowing my luck another full refurb will be needed.
Heat pumps are expensive to install and run. Heat recovery systems are high tech set-ups. I want something that is reliable, low tech and will not need an expensive engineer to maintain and fix when it will go wrong.
Past experience and an earlier comment confirm insulation is the key. We have a 120m2 bungalow at present and total energy costs are £85 a month for gas and electricity.
If starting from scratch now I would be thinking electric is the way forward. I'd wire up electric radiators, all on one common timed circuit with individual thermostats. From past experience an emersion heater in a large well insulated tank will cope with the demands of a family so no problem with just the two of us and occasional guests. 
The cost of electricity is going to be lower than gas and you can produce the stuff yourself. it is or should be greener than gas. The wiring is a dam site easier to do than plumbing, I'd just have to get it signed off.
I'm probably living in cuckoo land, but this would be my starting point from which to learn and develop.

Colin


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## Ozi (22 Oct 2021)

It's a question I think a lot of us are asking right now. I'm thinking that the answer for me at least is probably more than one heat source. We have solar hot water from vacuum tubes on the roof, installed 13 years ago, first service this year and no issues. I have been very pleased with these they give lots of hot water through the summer, five people all get showers plus the washing up etc. meaning my gas boiler only runs when central heating is needed. I have insulated as much as I can, my house doesn't have good cavity walls and lots of iron in the blocks it's built from. This is going to sound daft but I bought my wife a heat pad for her chair, she likes the place much hotter than the rest of us and it takes about a month off each end of the central heating season. I'm thinking of getting a small log burner as we live out in the sticks I don't think it will cause air quality issues and I get a small amount of free fire wood. In your position I would keep the system you have but try all means to minimize it's use, insulation as mentioned by all but also I think most of us are of an age to remember the woolly jumper, we used to live in houses with much less insulation and although my parents had central heating it only run when to not run it would have meant frozen pipes, I'm as guilty as anyone of heating my house to T shirt temperatures all year round then feeling bloody freezing outside when it gets down to 10°, it's time to stop doing that unless you have people who are vulnerable to consider. 

When I get off this soap box it's going on the fire!


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## Spectric (22 Oct 2021)

Ozi said:


> log burner


Yes a good source of heat but not so good if you also try and use one to provide hotwater by getting on with a heat exchanger. A company up here has been over whelmed with orders for them since this gas hike and now has plenty of work.


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## mikej460 (22 Oct 2021)

We had a top quality log boiler and solar hot water system feeding a thermal store and it was a nightmare to maintain. Most of the problems were down to our inability to source good quality and dry logs, especially after Christmas as the log suppliers started to run out of seasoned logs, so we ended up with load after load of damp sycamore. The solar system was good in winter but boiled in summer, partly due to an undersized thermal store. The boiler itself needed regular checking and attention which wasn't possible whilst holding down a demanding job so we sold the entire system and installed a wood pellet boiler with a Heatrae Sadia Megaflow hot water tank and it is so much better.


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## Fitzroy (23 Oct 2021)

Heat pumps are just a refrigeration cycle, so no more complicated than that. Reliability will improve as more are installed. The integrity of the internal parts wouldn’t worry me. The integrity of the external elements will depend on the competence of the installer. If installation numbers increase rapidly, it’ll pull the cowboys in and there will be plenty of horror stories.


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## Woopecker (23 Oct 2021)

robotmannick said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I was hoping to canvas your opinions on what kind of heating system I should install in my house.
> 
> ...


Given current financial climate I would keep the biomass boiler but change to wood pellets future fuel prices are set to go one way and it’s not in our favour, the other question would be if you already have a biomass boiler and received RHI would you qualify to have that removed in favour of another system , Ref your oil tank at 8 yrs your oil is now contaminated and will hold water from condensation in the tank, you may also require new tank if not to standards ( double skin)


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## Jones (23 Oct 2021)

Spend money on insulation first, then look at ventilation, we have a mvhr system that gives good draught free ventilation and removes moisture to give a comfortable house. When draughts are reduced and air is dryer the comfort temperature is lower.
I don't know much about heating systems we went for oil and burn about 500L a year for large detached heating and dhw which with boiler cost has worked out cheaper than biomass over the years. We also have a borehole water supply it cost £5000 10 years ago 70 m deep ,through rock all the way it took 8 hours to drill. That rig was on a Bedford 4 tonner I think smaller rigs will drill slower but £50000 seems a bit much.


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2021)

Future is uncertain so lowest tech and least dependent on infrastructure and the outside world, makes sense?
Insulation x 3!
Woodburner for direct heat - we burn all workshop waste, sawdust, cardboard etc as well as stuff we bring in.
Solar water with largest possible thermal store. Can this be self sufficient without mains electricity?
I'm retreating into survivalist mode!
I foresee massive expansion of air/ground heat-pump usage to be followed by massive maintenance problem with massive shortage of engineers.


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## Krome10 (23 Oct 2021)

Ozi said:


> This is going to sound daft but I bought my wife a heat pad for her chair, she likes the place much hotter than the rest of us and it takes about a month off each end of the central heating season.



I'm not laughing. But I am smiling  People tend to put insulation at the top of the list, which I agree with, but I think joint top are the simple measures such as a jumper etc, etc.

I have thermal long johns and tops, thick socks etc which I wear throughout winter. The house is usually around 16-17c in winter at peak. When it r occasionally reaches 18-20c we start to get hot under the collar and unconformable, even without the thermal layers. Most people naturally acclimatise to their environment; be it levels of heat, hunger, etc. Heat a house well into the 20s, and over the years you'll feel the cold a lot more as your body resets to the new "normal". I totally accept that different people have different tolerances, but at the same time I think the above holds true.

I personally can't understand why how we use energy is often not discussed, or at least left to the margins. So many people have a shower a day (some more!), wash clothes after one or two uses, heat houses to the point they can sit in shorts and t shirts, etc etc. If we hadn't evolved into this era of cleanliness, I think a lot of what is now considered normal would be considered anal OCD type behaviour. We scramble around looking for new innovative ways to make everything greener - which is a great thing - but for me the elephant in the room is our usage. 

I feel I must say something on topic now to counter my off topic rant! To the OP, I would be inclined to stick with what you've got for the time being. I think we're in a period of flux and it's hard to know what the future will hold for different energy prices, changing installation prices and grants, new green legislation, and new innovation in heating systems which perhaps haven't surfaced yet.


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## nickds1 (23 Oct 2021)

We did an eco build 16 years ago and the GSHP supplying all heating and hot water was part of that. We buy our electricity from an 100% renewable supplier.

The house is two parts - an old oast that was gutted and completely rebuilt and a new part that looks old, but internally is block and beam.

The new part is UFH with the b&b slab acting as thermal store. The old bit has standard emitters which are sized for the lower GSHP water temperature.

Regardless of your eventual heat source, you need to insulate to the very highest standard you can. Just do it.

We hate the whole passive House thing, so we do open windows and doors etc - insane to live in the country and then live in a sealed box!

As we did the GSHP at the same time as the build, it was pretty cheap to install as we had diggers etc. on site - most of the exterior install was done in a day, though it took the lawn two years to recover.

In the 16 years the system has been in, it's given no problems and not missed a beat. Just love it!

Regarding reliability, this is NOT new technology. Heat pumps have been used in Scandinavia and Europe for many decades and the technology is simple and well established. We were in the first 100 domestic installs in the UK, but the system we used was an IVT Green line - IVT are now owned by Bosch, but are an established Swedish company with 10s of 1000s of installations.

The technology is straightforward and not complex - basically a fridge in reverse. It's mostly circulation pumps, filters and motorised valves, all of which are standard parts (Grunfoss etc.) - the only bit that is specific to an HP is the heat exchanger and that's not rocket science either - much the same as a fridge compressor.

It's an extremely mature and well understood technology. The UK is just a bit late to the party - the rest of Europe and North America etc. have been using this stuff for many years.


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## Krome10 (23 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm retreating into survivalist mode!
> 
> I foresee massive expansion of air/ground heat-pump usage to be followed by massive maintenance problem with massive shortage of engineers.



I agree with both those points. 

Regarding the second point, we explored gshp option when we moved into our current house. Would have required possibly X2 100m boreholes and the proposed site was right next to the house. We live in a very wet area with a high water table, and when I thought about it I didn't like the freeze-thaw aspect of the ground on which my house sits; half of which doesn't have foundations. I'm no builder so perhaps that's unfair and unfounded, but I do seem to remember finding some stuff on the internet along similar lines.


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2021)

Survival mode again - yes as much insulation as you can but also internally zonal so that your main living quarters, the woodburner, the thermal store, are all in one zone, with the rest of the premises cooling down if things are getting difficult.


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## Dee J (23 Oct 2021)

I've been involved in electrical installation around a couple of ASHP installations, and the biggest complexity, cost and potential failure points would seem to be trying to incorporate water heating. For a smaller property with relatively low water usage - one shower + basin and with cold fill dishwasher and washing machine, I wonder whether just a small electrically heated mains pressure tank for the hot water would win in simplicity and capital cost over slightly raised running cost. Save the heat pump for space heating only? 
For the OP's larger property I think some analysis of actual usage patterns might help sway the decision. Does the house sit empty 75% of the time or is it continually occupied to capacity? Heat pump operation is generally optimised for continuous steady state rather than fast response operation.


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## Ozi (23 Oct 2021)

Krome10 said:


> I'm not laughing. But I am smiling  People tend to put insulation at the top of the list, which I agree with, but I think joint top are the simple measures such as a jumper etc, etc.
> 
> I have thermal long johns and tops, thick socks etc which I wear throughout winter. The house is usually around 16-17c in winter at peak. When it r occasionally reaches 18-20c we start to get hot under the collar and unconformable, even without the thermal layers. Most people naturally acclimatise to their environment; be it levels of heat, hunger, etc. Heat a house well into the 20s, and over the years you'll feel the cold a lot more as your body resets to the new "normal". I totally accept that different people have different tolerances, but at the same time I think the above holds true.
> 
> ...


That's what I meant - you said it better


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2021)

Krome10 said:


> I'm not laughing. But I am smiling  People tend to put insulation at the top of the list, which I agree with, but I think joint top are the simple measures such as a jumper etc, etc.
> 
> I have thermal long johns and tops, thick socks etc which I wear throughout winter. The house is usually around 16-17c in winter at peak. When it r occasionally reaches 18-20c we start to get hot under the collar and unconformable, even without the thermal layers. Most people naturally acclimatise to their environment; be it levels of heat, hunger, etc. Heat a house well into the 20s, and over the years you'll feel the cold a lot more as your body resets to the new "normal". I totally accept that different people have different tolerances, but at the same time I think the above holds true.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree, especially about the personal insulation, however unwashed!
The big issue is really two big issues: how to reduce CO2 on the one hand but also how to cope with the climate changes themselves. On the way already, whatever we do in terms of CO2 reduction, unstoppable in the short term and may not be reversible in the long.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Oct 2021)

nickds1 said:


> We buy our electricity from an 100% renewable supplier.




So yours won't be going up, then?


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## nickds1 (23 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> So yours won't be going up, then?


Hah! It's currently with Bulb at around 23p /kWh day and 14p/kWh night, but Bulb are a bit shaky and equivalents, like Octopus, are even more expensive. A year ago it was 13p/kWh daytime.

So, using a heat pump that has a COP of around 3.5 (which ours is) that means for every kW we put in from the grid, we get 3.5kW of heat in the house, courtesy of the sun.

Can't ask more, really.


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## Jameshow (23 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> So yours won't be going up, then?


Must have a separate supply?!!!


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## Trainee neophyte (23 Oct 2021)

This may not be applicable to the OP directly, but I am a big fan of thermal mass. A current practice around me at the moment is to insulate the outside of your house, thus making the entire structure thermal mass. It makes for a house that doesn't change temperature very much from summer to winter, with only limited heating required. Probably not ideal if you live in a 15th century stately home, but for your average bungalow it might be an option. (The UK habit of having minimal overhanging eaves does mean that the roof may no longer cover the walls after 200mm of insulation is added all around, but in for a penny, in for a new roof?

My other suggestion is for a colossal thermal mass heater. These come in two flavours: masonary heaters like this:






and then you have the hippy - dippy permaculture people who make things out of mud:






They both work on the same principle: heat a monumental amount of stone, cob or similar, (as dense as you can make it), and this then leaks heat out into the house gently over time, much like underfloor heating. Of course it does fill your house up with a huge lump of stuff, but in some circumstances it could work. You can also incorporate it it into the furniture, so you get a heated sofa, if that's what you want. Either way, good luck convincing the interior design department that it is a good idea.

Masonary stove examples

Rocket stove examples


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## Ozi (23 Oct 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> This may not be applicable to the OP directly, but I am a big fan of thermal mass. A current practice around me at the moment is to insulate the outside of your house, thus making the entire structure thermal mass. It makes for a house that doesn't change temperature very much from summer to winter, with only limited heating required. Probably not ideal if you live in a 15th century stately home, but for your average bungalow it might be an option. (The UK habit of having minimal overhanging eaves does mean that the roof may no longer cover the walls after 200mm of insulation is added all around, but in for a penny, in for a new roof?
> 
> My other suggestion is for a colossal thermal mass heater. These come in two flavours: masonary heaters like this:
> 
> ...


Like the last one. I'm seeing a wife shelf, four cat shelves and me outside chopping wood to keep from freezing my ass off


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2021)

Thermal mass works brilliantly for the Russian stove Russian stove - Wikipedia where the winter is going to be a lot colder than room temp for a long time, but in temperate zones is less useful - takes extra energy to heat up and then releases it in an uncontrolled way.
Better off with high insulated zero thermal mass so that all energy input goes into heating the air and not the structure


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2021)

"....._Is it worth waiting for an alternative technology to emerge?
Possibly_......"









Air source heat pumps: how the costs and savings stack up


The lowdown as householders are being urged to replace their old boilers with greener alternatives




www.theguardian.com


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## robotmannick (23 Oct 2021)

Thanks all,

What a wealth of interesting replies. I couldn't have hoped for a better response, so thank you everyone for your thoughts.

Insulation in the house is already pretty good - it was a pre-requisite for eligibility of the RHI when I installed the biomass boiler. Sure, there's always ways to improve it, but with diminishing returns. At some point (~5 years?) the windows will need replacing, so that's probably the next upgrade, plus under floor insulation if I'm going to add underfloor heating, though only about 30% of the house is wooden floorboards with a void - the rest is concrete and I don't fancy raising the floor level throughout or digging it up. I do like the idea of external insulation though; there's a 10-12" roof overhang, so enough to add at least 6" I reckon, plus it will cover up the painted bricks that I'm not so fond of and will not shrink the size of the rooms of course. I assume there are ways of fitting it without creating damp problems?

I'm pretty sold on keeping the biomass boiler. Taking it out and selling it will probably raise enough cash to pay someone to take it out, so really not worth the bother - the space it consumes is negligible unless I also take out the thermal store. GSHP is definitely worth getting a proper quote - I agree that the technology is tried and tested so I'm comfortable with the longevity with minimal maintenance. I reckon I'll be ok with the existing radiators - the house is still comfortable even when the thermal store is at 50 degrees or thereabouts.

As for waiting to see what may be around the corner...there's no mains gas here, so mains hydrogen is out of the question. Similarly, community heating would never be installed near me (unless the council decides to approve building 2000 homes in the fields surrounding here...). Maybe there's something else I'm not aware of though.

As expected, there is no clear cut answer and you're right - it's a balance between running cost and initial investment. In general I lean towards paying more up-front to reap the benefits later on, but that has limits.

Thanks again for all the comments and opinions. Great food for thought.


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## Trainee neophyte (23 Oct 2021)

One more clever wheeze: bit coin mining. You might even make some money out of it...






North Vancouver to be World's First City heated by Bitcoin


/PRNewswire/ -- The City of North Vancouver, British Columbia, runs on a hydronic district energy system that delivers heat to 100 residential and commercial...




www.prnewswire.com


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## Sandyn (23 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> So yours won't be going up, then?


and with winter coming, all that wind and rain, the power bills should be going down!!


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## Sandyn (23 Oct 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> You can also incorporate it it into the furniture, so you get a heated sofa, if that's what you want. Either way, good luck convincing the interior design department that it is a good idea.


I would have a rocket mass heater in my house, but there are no regulations for them, so no way to fit just now. They are brilliant.


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2021)

I'm looking at hibernation as an option. Just get stuck in under a thick fur skin and stay there until spring You Could Probably Hibernate


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## mikej460 (23 Oct 2021)

robotmannick said:


> Thanks all,
> 
> What a wealth of interesting replies. I couldn't have hoped for a better response, so thank you everyone for your thoughts.
> 
> ...


I sold our log boiler system, solar thermal system, Heatrae Sadia, h/w tank and 1500l thermal store for £2.5k on eBay. My buying it was by any measure the worst decision I have made, due to the stress it placed on us maintaining it; yes I under-sized the thermal store but even if I had installed the correct size the stress would not have been worth it. In mitigation I would say that our 18 year old oil boiler had been condemned and the cost of pellet boilers was well outside our budget at the time. Only when cheaper European pellet boilers were introduced into the UK market 6 years ago were we able to sell and switch to an Italian pellet boiler and it has been excellent. We also obtained RHI for it which has paid for our pellets every year. I did get a quote for an ASHP but the size of our house required the largest ASHP available in 2015 and we were quoted over £13.5k compared to the Pellet Boiler system at £7.5k so at the time it was an easy decision.

Our 7 year RHI ends next year so I will look again at a GSHP system to replace it.


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2021)

mikej460 said:


> I sold our log boiler system, solar thermal system, Heatrae Sadia, h/w tank and 1500l thermal store for £2.5k on eBay. My buying it was by any measure the worst decision I have made, due to the stress it placed on us maintaining it; yes I under-sized the thermal store but even if I had installed the correct size the stress would not have been worth it. In mitigation I would say that our 18 year old oil boiler had been condemned and the cost of pellet boilers was well outside our budget at the time. Only when cheaper European pellet boilers were introduced into the UK market 6 years ago were we able to sell and switch to an Italian pellet boiler and it has been excellent. We also obtained RHI for it which has paid for our pellets every year. I did get a quote for an ASHP but the size of our house required the largest ASHP available in 2015 and we were quoted over £13.5k compared to the Pellet Boiler system at £7.5k so at the time it was an easy decision.
> 
> Our 7 year RHI ends next year so I will look again at a GSHP system to replace it.


We were looking at very expensive woodburner/thermal store system with our conversion. Had fantasies about producing enough workshop offcuts to keep it going. 
But in reality you need a small wood of your own (1 acre?), wood drying facility, full time labourer/stoker. Madness!
Actually when I am working I do produce a lot of stuff for the normal multi-fuel (Dowling Sumo) - useful but very intermittent.


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## mikej460 (23 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> We were looking at very expensive woodburner/thermal store system with our conversion. Had fantasies about producing enough workshop offcuts to keep it going.
> But in reality you need a small wood of your own (1 acre?), wood drying facility, full time labourer/stoker. Madness!
> Actually when I am working I do produce a lot of stuff for the normal multi-fuel (Dowling Sumo) - useful but very intermittent.


Yes we were burning a cubic metre a week for 32 weeks a year which all needed stacking and then loading twice a day, which was knackering, especially when it was raining or bitterly cold. I had a plan to build a solar kiln to pre-dry the next winter's logs but when I realised that meant storing 32 IBC crates on our field, all under cover and even then wrapped in plastic to avoid moisture creeping back in, I gave up. We were then at the mercy of log men and constantly let down; even if they could constantly supply seasoned logs their interpretation of 'seasoned' was the tree was cut down 2 years ago but they had only just cut it up  ; ironically several local businesses have started up since then with high capacity log kilns.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Oct 2021)

mikej460 said:


> Only when cheaper European pellet boilers were introduced into the UK market 6 years ago were we able to sell and switch to an Italian pellet boiler and it has been excellent. We also obtained RHI for it which has paid for our pellets every year...
> Our 7 year RHI ends next year so I will look again at a GSHP system to replace it.



Not a dig at you in any way, Mike, but I wonder if when governments plan these subsidies supposedly to save pollution and natural resources they factor in the short lives of the product caused by the subsidies ending? The pollution caused in their manufacture in many cases can't be outweighed by anything saved by their use. It's often tunnel vision virtue signalling.


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## mikej460 (23 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Not a dig at you in any way, Mike, but I wonder if when governments plan these subsidies supposedly to save pollution and natural resources they factor in the short lives of the product caused by the subsidies ending? The pollution caused in their manufacture in many cases can't be outweighed by anything saved by their use. It's often tunnel vision virtue signalling.


Yes I agree Phil but if I do replace it I will sell the old one. It all depends on the cost of a suitable GSHP. The only issue I have with the pellet boiler is uncertainty on future pellet cost. It cost us £225 pm in 2015 and now it's £300 pm so pretty extortionate albeit only in winter months. One pallet (96kg for £300) lasts from May to September mind you, providing all the HW and the odd chilly night.


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## jimmy_s (23 Oct 2021)

Krome10 said:


> I agree with both those points.
> 
> Regarding the second point, we explored gshp option when we moved into our current house. Would have required possibly X2 100m boreholes and the proposed site was right next to the house. We live in a very wet area with a high water table, and when I thought about it I didn't like the freeze-thaw aspect of the ground on which my house sits; half of which doesn't have foundations. I'm no builder so perhaps that's unfair and unfounded, but I do seem to remember finding some stuff on the internet along similar lines.




The ground won't freeze unless someone makes an buttocks of sizing the boreholes. Freezing ground is a result of trying to extract too much heat out of the bores.

Wet area with high water table is good as any water movement near the boreholes will improve heat transfer


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## jimmy_s (23 Oct 2021)

I would stick with the biomass short term and concentrate on insulating the place. 

Its worth doing heat loss calcs to see what size heat pump you need. Ideally if you can do the heat losses to BS EN 12831 as that's what the MCS installers have to base the sizing on. If you can and intend to install UFH then I would crack on with that. Long term its the best solution I recon whether you stick with biomass or a heat pump in the future.

UFH is a radiant heating system whereas radiators are mainly convective. In UK we use dry resultant temps as a comfort temp index. for draught free or low air velocities the equation for dry resultant temp (T res) simplifies to 1/2 air temp plus 1/2 mean radiant temp. The air temp will be lower with UFH to achieve comfort generally so running costs less. 

I'm in a similar situation and am insulating and installing UFH as I refurbish the house. Were on oil and I recon probably ok for a while yet but long term I will have to get a heat pump. 

I will probably design and install it myself however.


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## woodieallen (23 Oct 2021)

robotmannick said:


> Hi all,
> 
> .....
> 
> ...



Keep it. Why get rid of it ? Do a CBA on how much you are going to pay to instal ANY other system. How much it's going to cost to run. Then do the sums on simply carrying on with your known working system and just continuing to put in fuel as you do now. If you need 40kW to heat your house then you're going to need 40kW regardless of your heat source.

It's a no-brainer IMO.

Bit like trying to justify spending £4500 on double-glazing with an annual payback of £75 in energy savings.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Oct 2021)

Just a thought - before anyone does calcs. involving D/G costs (or, in reality any other costs), make sure the quotes are up to date. Our two front windows were done a few months ago and the price increase over a couple of years ago was frightening.


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## MARK.B. (23 Oct 2021)

For those waiting for the change over to a new Energy supplier I just got my new tariff from Octopus ,to be honest i thought it would be more,I know it's a variable tariff and likely to go up once the honeymoon period is over but it gives me some time to shop around and change if needed without incurring any charges.

Your prices (including VAT) are: 

A standing charge of 26.82p per day and 19.89p/kWh for your electricity.
A standing charge of 26.11p per day and 3.94p/kWh for your gas.

My thoughts up to now are to play the waiting game for the next few years and let the madness descend as every dodgy dealer out there suddenly becomes a expert fitter of magical devices that will cure all your problems for the best price out there. Also the powers that be are in a bit of a pickle at the moment and as yet no real/meaningful /practical plans have yet to emerge that will enable mass conversions that will be needed to be effective for the masses at a price affordable to all.
I have no clue what the answer is and not trying to be political, and to be honest at this stage it matters little who is running the show on our behalf as all parties are going to have to come up with a whole new way of thinking to come up with any solution that has any chance of working out,there will likely be a whole rash of madcap ideas and knee jerk reactions for a few years as huge sums of money and massive amounts of resources are wasted hunting for that all elusive perfect ending to this conundrum we all find ourselves in. 
Of course boilers pack up and I may be forced to choose sooner than planned a new pumped system of some sort or just stick another combi in, but in all honesty despite having looked at what both Air and Ground systems do the cost will be the ultimate decider in how i go forward when needed. We do plan to upgrade insulation where needed and will probably spend more now than first thought .
Any way those were just my thoughts at this moment,when my wife makes up my mind for me I will let you know


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## Bartfatboy (24 Oct 2021)

Krome10 said:


> I'm not laughing. But I am smiling  People tend to put insulation at the top of the list, which I agree with, but I think joint top are the simple measures such as a jumper etc, etc.
> 
> I have thermal long johns and tops, thick socks etc which I wear throughout winter. The house is usually around 16-17c in winter at peak. When it r occasionally reaches 18-20c we start to get hot under the collar and unconformable, even without the thermal layers. Most people naturally acclimatise to their environment; be it levels of heat, hunger, etc. Heat a house well into the 20s, and over the years you'll feel the cold a lot more as your body resets to the new "normal". I totally accept that different people have different tolerances, but at the same time I think the above holds true.
> 
> ...


I very much agree with a lot of what you say there, the one thing I would add is that you have to factor in old age and the reduction in movement it brings. Everyone always complained that my parent’s (who were of the same mind as you are) place was cold but my parents were fine until their mobility and ability to do those things that had kept them warm reduced. At which point they ended up using oil filled rads in their bed and sitting rooms. 
Whilst not wishing to be a doom monger, I think far too many people think”it” (old age and infirmity) won’t happen to them! Having seen two very fit, active and strong people slowly become infirm I am very much in favour of future proofing and putting things in place so that one can live out your days as comfortably and as stress free as possible.


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## ortogo (24 Oct 2021)

Hope my recent experience might be of interest, in 2018 I completed the self build of our latest house a dormer bungalow of 2250 sq ft, a friend of mine also completed a self build around the same time his was a house of approx 1800 sq ft. Both homes were very well insulated as we are both in the building trade and realise that insulation is the cheapest way to ensure low running costs. We installed an oil boiler for heating and hot water, my friend went down the air source heat pump route. My friend used a specialist heating firm to install his ASHP system which cost him £16,000 (this does not include the cost of the underfloor heating or oversized upstairs rads the ASHP system was connected to), our boiler and oil tank cost £2,100, our heating system uses ordinary rads so there was quite a cost saving there as well. Over the last 3 years our oil consumption has been constant at 900-1000 litres per year, so on average, by buying our oil in the summer when its cheapest its cost us roughly £600 per year. Unfortunately my friends ASHP has not been so economical, stripping out the domestic electric costs (lighting and household electrical use), the ASHP is using £1500-£2000 per year.
This might be a bit simplistic, but our oil system saved us £13,900 in purchase price and every year going forward we will be saving £900-£1400 per year in running costs. Just for a figure lets say the boiler lasts 20 years (although I know of many that are over 30 years old and still going strong) including the cost of the ASHP system my friend stands to be around £35,000 out of pocket, and the cynic in me says that until all the electric produced in this country comes from renewables a lot of the extra expense will come from burning fossil fuels, so how is that helping global warming?


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## Mal-110 (24 Oct 2021)

Really interesting posts. I agree with the point about insulation before anything else. Insulation of Walls is covered by building regulations in the UK. Chapter C,5, Walls. There is a map (quite a poor one but more detailed version is available at a cost). This map shows exposed areas of the UK, this is followed by a detailed table of wall types and levels of insulation. I have added a PDF for those REALLY interested. I short if you live in the exposed west and have a brick built building then a full retrofit of insulation may not be the right choice. I live in a level three area and some houses have experienced penetrating damp and mould issues following full fill insulation. This could be the result of poor installation of course. Nevertheless I think it's prudent to go through the regulations before adding any more insulation.




https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/431943/BR_PDF_AD_C_2013.pdf


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2021)

A lot of the talk on here is about systems which the majority of the population simply could not afford, even if they lived in suitable places for installations, which many don't.
Maybe future heating "systems" should be dealt with firstly by economics rather than technology.
Rationing - give everybody a maximum energy allowance in kwh per annum, tokens to spend how they like, on energy, whether on transport, heating, whatever. Companies providing goods/services would need to price in ration tokens as well as money, to pay for the fuel which they need. Let the market take control!


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## AJB Temple (24 Oct 2021)

Crazy idea Jacob. Befits your political ideology, but deluded in reality. Will never happen. 

The more nutty bits aside ^, this is an interesting discussion as I face a boiler replacement dilemma. Rural, no gas, building unsuitable fo solar or underfloor heating. The really big problem with change to a low carbon system of any kind, is the huge capital cost (maybe partly allayed by drip feed grants but you still have to fund the outlay) and the immense payback period (even with a pessimistic view of fossil fuel costs in the future). For those of us who expect to move - eventual retirement and downsize in my case - within 10 years, it makes no sense to install expensive systems unless they demonstrably add to property value. 

Read the article in the media by John Humphries (ex Today R4) about his real life experience installing and running a GSHP in his Welsh farmhouse. Installation was text book via a full renovation: underfloor heating, lots of insulation, used a large adjacent field to bury the pipes....and the house remains cold, with a steep increase in electricity costs not delivering comfort. We need to understand why some installations simply do not work usefully and the examples of positive vs negative are too few currently.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Maybe future heating "systems" should be dealt with firstly by economics rather than technology.
> Rationing - give everybody a maximum energy allowance in kwh per annum, tokens to spend how they like, on energy, whether on transport, heating, whatever. Companies providing goods/services would need to price in ration tokens as well as money, to pay for the fuel which they need. Let the market take control!



That's letting the state take control, not the market.

Retro fitted insulation is a bit of a rabbit hole - the RICS apparently advised that cavity insulation shouldn't be used in exposed areas, which counts out places like the majority of Cornwall.


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## Pineapple (24 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> Survival mode again - yes as much insulation as you can but also internally zonal so that your main living quarters, the woodburner, the thermal store, are all in one zone, with the rest of the premises cooling down if things are getting difficult.


I was brought up by the "Thriftiest" father in Yorkshire....I'm accustomed to living in a relatively cool house & wearing wooly jumpers & thick socks in winter.
I have tried a couple of padded jackets with little success but last year I bought a 100% DUCK-DOWN (EIDER) Jacket on ebay for £50.oo (The Eider List Price would have been over £300.oo ) I started wearing it in November & continued through to April, when I had to abandon it for the summer, because it's too warm.
My Point is that with the 100% duck-down jacket on I don't need to heat my house (Night-Storage Radiators) to any more than 5*C to prevent the pipes from freezing ! = I use the purest form of "Central Heating" in that I eat well & keep moving to maintain my body warmth. - The Down Jacket does the rest !


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> Crazy idea Jacob. Befits your political ideology, but deluded in reality. Will never happen....


You mean it doesn't befit your own deluded political ideology  .
It worked pretty well in WW2 and in subsequent fuel scares. The 1973 50mph limit was highly effective in terms of reducing demand and also accident rates.
We are in an emergency situation - emergency measures are long overdue. I don't expect much will come from Cop26.


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2021)

Pineapple said:


> I was brought up by the "Thriftiest" father in Yorkshire....I'm accustomed to living in a relatively cool house & wearing wooly jumpers & thick socks in winter.
> I have tried a couple of padded jackets with little success but last year I bought a 100% DUCK-DOWN (EIDER) Jacket on ebay for £50.oo (The Eider List Price would have been over £300.oo ) I started wearing it in November & continued through to April, when I had to abandon it for the summer, because it's too warm.
> My Point is that with the 100% duck-down jacket on I don't need to heat my house (Night-Storage Radiators) to any more than 5*C to prevent the pipes from freezing ! = I use the purest form of "Central Heating" in that I eat well & keep moving to maintain my body warmth. - The Down Jacket does the rest !


Yes they are brilliant. Mines UniQlo ultra light which are quite cheap £60 ish. And Helly Hansen underwear!


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> That's letting the state take control, not the market.
> 
> ...


No it's allowing the market to work within parameters, as they all do currently anyway. No change, just adjusting the rules and letting the market work out how to do it


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## Lard (24 Oct 2021)

I’ve been following this conversation with interest and here’s my query…..our 1960’s bungalow has the ugliest facing brick known to man  but does have nice wide soffits . The cavity walls were ‘bead’ filled many years previous to us moving in and, perhaps fortuitously, we have had no issue with damp/interstitial condensation (IC) etc. 
I would like kill a few birds with as few stones as possible and so why don’t I add further EXTERNAL insulation and have it rendered to any colour certified suitable by she who knows better? Thus warming the house and vastly improving its looks at the same time.
Am I imagining this but did I not read somewhere that there is the potential to cause IC through the addition of external insulation? Surely I’m correct (thinking back to my old ONC study days and the dew point curve) that by increasing the EXTERNAL temperature the dew point is pushed outwards and, therefore, lessening the chance of causing IC? Something in me is saying that I may cause a problem but I can’t see how? Any thoughts?


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## dickm (24 Oct 2021)

Just a couple of points. Someone commented that forced ventilation/heat recovery is difficult to instal. In a bungalow like our's, it's a doddle. Box with fans and heat exchanger in the roof void, ducting to all rooms in the same space. Our's was put in in 2000, and has run continually ever since, with occasional filter changes. It's finally getting a bit noisy as the motor bearings wear, but that's not a big deal. If anyone wants the spare ducting and fittings that were left over, contact me!
The other point which needs stressing is that there comes to most of us a point where our physical abilities decrease and as a result, our need for warmth increases. The best down jacket and slippers won't keep your feet warm. DAMHIKT


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2021)

Lard said:


> I’ve been following this conversation with interest and here’s my query…..our 1960’s bungalow has the ugliest facing brick known to man  but does have nice wide soffits . The cavity walls were ‘bead’ filled many years previous to us moving in and, perhaps fortuitously, we have had no issue with damp/interstitial condensation (IC) etc.
> I would like kill a few birds with as few stones as possible and so why don’t I add further EXTERNAL insulation and have it rendered to any colour certified suitable by she who knows better? Thus warming the house and vastly improving its looks at the same time.
> Am I imagining this but did I not read somewhere that there is the potential to cause IC through the addition of external insulation? Surely I’m correct (thinking back to my old ONC study days and the dew point curve) that by increasing the EXTERNAL temperature the dew point is pushed outwards and, therefore, lessening the chance of causing IC? Something in me is saying that I may cause a problem but I can’t see how? Any thoughts?


It's a good idea in principle but immensely complicated because of the detailing required at every point where new add-on meets old, mainly in terms of keeping water out, as well as cladding the insulation itself. Effectively building a new house around the old.
Much cheaper and easier to line the inside and add about 100mm to all the external walls, deal with floors and roof.


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## Spectric (24 Oct 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> but I am a big fan of thermal mass.


I think that the two most important factors in future heating will be insulation and thermal mass, one to retain the heat and the other to provide a dampening effect for the heat source input. Underfloor heating with a good covering of screed works well, may take longer to heat up but once at setpoint you only need to trickle heat in to maintain, again insulation below is very important and overall insulation of the building. The problem we seem to have in the Uk is that we are still building houses that are not up to a standard especially when it comes to insulation, it is much cheaper to build right than try and retrofit and it has been shown that houses can be very warm with very little heating if the walls are very thick made with the correct insulation and using warm loft spaces with heavily insulated roofs but it is not helpful when your primary / only goal is making big bucks.


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## eribaMotters (24 Oct 2021)

Lard, we bought an early 70's bungalow of about 100m2 the tail end of 2017. It had no cavity wall insulation and between 25 and 50 mm in the loft. We could not get the place warm.
An 80m2 extension has gone on the side of which 55m2 is workshop/garage, so we now have a 125m2 of living space in the bungalow. Building control unofficially advised me against cavity wall insulation because of potential internal condensation problems, and as the external rendering was so bad we went for external insulation and K Rend finish.
Unfortunately for use the builder used the incorrect insulation that he di d not fit correctly. The wrong K Rend and beads followed and this was not applied correctly. It resulted in 100m2 of mess and a call to the K Rend rep. The only way forward was to remove the lot and start again. The builder has gone bankrupt so I've ended up with a £11K bill to sort it out. The job is now done and looks wonderful. The builder drops me £100/200 through the letter box every couple of weeks, but I'll never see the full amount back. I've also put 350mm of insulation in the loft and now have a very comfortable house and about £90 month gas/electric bill.
I would advise on exterior insulation and K Rend but please contact K Rend directly for a list of approved contractors.

Colin


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## Lard (24 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's a good idea in principle but immensely complicated because of the detailing required at every point where new add-on meets old, mainly in terms of keeping water out, as well as cladding the insulation itself. Effectively building a new house around the old.
> Much cheaper and easier to line the inside and add about 100mm to all the external walls, deal with floors and roof.



Yes but that doesn’t solve the aesthetics and causes me more issues….ie ”much easier“ - for starters you haven’t met my missus  

…..also, and back to the condensation issue, further INTERNAL insulation will only pull the dew point backwards into the cavity increasing the likelihood of IC……I need to get out my graph paper, get hold of the u-values and do some calcs……..my old lecturer would be very proud


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## Spectric (24 Oct 2021)

Krome10 said:


> I'm not laughing. But I am smiling  People tend to put insulation at the top of the list, which I agree with, but I think joint top are the simple measures such as a jumper etc, etc.
> 
> I have thermal long johns and tops, thick socks etc which I wear throughout winter. The house is usually around 16-17c in winter at peak. When it r occasionally reaches 18-20c we start to get hot under the collar and unconformable, even without the thermal layers. Most people naturally acclimatise to their environment; be it levels of heat, hunger, etc. Heat a house well into the 20s, and over the years you'll feel the cold a lot more as your body resets to the new "normal". I totally accept that different people have different tolerances, but at the same time I think the above holds true.


This is an initial sensable approach and a very good point, people now live in houses that are tropical and travel in cars that are also very warm and assume this is normal wheras many of us grew up in houses with no central heating, open fire or rayburn and had ice on the inside of our bedroom windows, along with travelling in cars that were not warm and cosy. As a kid I travelled in a motorcycle and sidecar with no heating and we went to school in shorts even if the snow was upto our knees so a sensable middle ground needs to be found rather than try and maintain the current high levels of heating. I think we need to accept a certain level of clothing indoors and not shorts and tee shirts. The same can be said of electrical energy usage, rather than complain about rising cost just be more aware and don't leave every light on, although much less usage now with LED but every bit counts. A problem here is technology and standby mode which needs to be addressed, you need a timed supply for Tv's and such that just shuts off overnight.


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## Lard (24 Oct 2021)

eribaMotters said:


> Lard, we bought an early 70's bungalow of about 100m2 the tail end of 2017. It had no cavity wall insulation and between 25 and 50 mm in the loft. We could not get the place warm.
> An 80m2 extension has gone on the side of which 55m2 is workshop/garage, so we now have a 125m2 of living space in the bungalow. Building control unofficially advised me against cavity wall insulation because of potential internal condensation problems, and as the external rendering was so bad we went for external insulation and K Rend finish.
> Unfortunately for use the builder used the incorrect insulation that he di d not fit correctly. The wrong K Rend and beads followed and this was not applied correctly. It resulted in 100m2 of mess and a call to the K Rend rep. The only way forward was to remove the lot and start again. The builder has gone bankrupt so I've ended up with a £11K bill to sort it out. The job is now done and looks wonderful. The builder drops me £100/200 through the letter box every couple of weeks, but I'll never see the full amount back. I've also put 350mm of insulation in the loft and now have a very comfortable house and about £90 month gas/electric bill.
> I would advise on exterior insulation and K Rend but please contact K Rend directly for a list of approved contractors.
> ...



Hi Colin….thanks for this…..I’m guilty of laziness here as I’ve obviously heard of K-rend but not spent anytime looking into it….I’ve sat on the fence too long just over-thinking things.

I think the problem with cavity fill is that there are so many examples of poor results because of the minefield of potential choices out there….as I said, we’ve had zero problems with ours and so my thinking is that we can only improve our situation by doing what you’ve done. I can’t see any practical reason to not do it.

Your place looks really good and I see you changed the concrete tiles too (are those new ones clay?).


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## eribaMotters (24 Oct 2021)

Lard, I'd have preferred clay but the tiles are unfortunately concrete. They are Marley Ashmore and give the effect of a double traditional clay tile[from a distance] They are supposed to be suitable for a pitch down to 22.5 degrees but you most be careful. These tiles are brittle and have a weak point in the interlocking design. You can now get a similar visual effect with the Duo Modern that was not available when we did the refurb and will go down to 17.5 degrees. If there is a next time I would look closely at these.

Colin


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## Derekspr (24 Oct 2021)

nickds1 said:


> We did an eco build 16 years ago and the GSHP supplying all heating and hot water was part of that. We buy our electricity from an 100% renewable supplier.
> 
> The house is two parts - an old oast that was gutted and completely rebuilt and a new part that looks old, but internally is block and beam.
> 
> ...


That is really interesting. Do you have financial info on running cost, size of the property etc. we have a four bed country semi detached that was in 2004 put to the highest level of insulation, but now would be difficult to add insulation. Keeping 99 yr old mother warm was costing 1200 then 1600 and possibly 2000 next year on gas CH and electric. With Electric rising to 20p plus per KWHr and the GSHP having a 3 to 1 conversion that for us would mean changing gas at 3.3 p per KWHr to 7 or 8 p per KWHr. Plus cost of installation etc. I think you could help understanding from your costs. Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks


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## Spectric (24 Oct 2021)

Lard said:


> I think the problem with cavity fill is that there are so many examples of poor results because of the minefield of potential choices out there


There is a specialist company in the NE that removes this mess when it goes wrong, saw a house where they were working and it looks like it involves removing bricks and tenting but from all accounts they are kept busy.


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## hairy (24 Oct 2021)

Our bungalow is just over 200 sqm with 400mm insulation all round. It has electric heaters which 99.9% of the time don't get used. We have a 5KW Morso Squirrel and two desk fans to move the warmth as required and we burn about 40x25kg bags of coal a year, £8 a bag for smokeless. Water is an electric immersion. I might make my own 1.2mx1.2m solar water heaters at some point connected via a thing called a Solasyphon. A pair of panels linked in series in winter and shunted to parallel in summer I think is how you stop it boiling when hot but still being useful in the winter, at ground level too no fiddling with roof tile malarky.
I've planted about 1800 willow shrubs not trees the initial few from Grow Your Own Firewood |
As shrubs these won't get bigger than my forearm so no big heavy logs, 1m spacing one way, 1.5m the other so don't take up acres and acres. We're now at the end of year 3, a few died, a few got blown over, most are now 4m tall and thickening up, first harvest is supposed to be year seven starting a five year cycle, so a fifth of them cut. They I hope will last twenty years and I will have copiced alder ready before the end of that, again, not a massive area. Coppicing giving a controllable log size suitable for me being an old codger. Willow is of course not the best firewood, but I hope better than coal, better than a big electric bill, better than being cold. It may need a physically bigger stove to fit the longer but lower quality logs for the same heat output we have now.
One advantage of a rocket stove is you have one or two quick hot burns of the kind of sticks left over after harvesting my willow, they are not for big logs I believe?

One construction site I spent some time on a few years ago was a shiny new techno building for Cambridge Uni. All heat was supposed to come from boreholes, all the ground investigation said it was suitable but the man doing the drilling spent about ten times as long drilling many more holes than planned because the water could be pumped up but refused to go down again. They gave up which meant a retro not as suitable/eco design for heating was needed. Mucho red faces.

Our house before last was an old thatched cottage with oil heating, very comfy. We moved to a new uber insulated similarly sized house with a concrete floor slab housing the underfloor heating and an air source heat pump. That kept shutting down (SE UK) saying it had frozen up but clearly hadn't. By the time you discovered it was off it took a day or more to heat the floor again, if the error code was one you could override yourself. The basic mechanics may be simple but the control box required a laptop and their dongle. The electric bill was a fair bit more than the thatched house oil bill, similarly sized buildings.

This current new house was classed very poorly in the house purchase eco survey (EPC?) because despite mega insulation the electric heaters were described as shockingly bad. We were advised to improve our house "efficiency" we should install electric solar panels or a wind turbine. The domestic turbine closest to here had it's blades blown off.
There is some talk that obtaining a mortage may be the trick to force people to get an air source heat pump, so despite how well I think our house works as it is we may have to install a heat pump if/when we sell.


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## hairy (24 Oct 2021)

Also, far infra red heaters heat you rather than the room and might be nice aimed at you in a workshop or cold room as an idea?


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## baldkev (24 Oct 2021)

In terms of electric, just bear in mind as soon as we all get thumped into buying electric cars tye government will have to ramp up electricity prices to eyewatering levels to pay for the loss of petrol and diesel tax.... and they'll base it on the extra estimated electricty usage of the cars, not on the overall gain of raising electric prices, so we'll all loose out even more 
Not that im a pessimist, honest


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## hairy (24 Oct 2021)

This is an interesting chart showing last years total energy mix in the UK



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1006380/Energy_flow_chart_2020.pdf


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## 1steven (24 Oct 2021)

Go with a log burner


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## mikej460 (24 Oct 2021)

1steven said:


> View attachment 120257
> Go with a log burner


Now you're talking, they go together a treat!


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Oct 2021)

I have a Dowling multi fuel in a rather small living room with six inch insulated ducting and an in line fan in the roof going to the main bedroom and the kitchen. Works brilliantly.


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## mikej460 (24 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I have a Dowling multi fuel in a rather small living room with six inch insulated ducting and an in line fan in the roof going to the main bedroom and the kitchen. Works brilliantly.


That's a canny idea Phil as our woodburner often throws out too much heat for our lounge, even on tick over, and it soon gets uncomfortably warm so I'm now thinking how I can extract some heat into adjoining cooler rooms.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Oct 2021)

I had an Xpelair six inch ceiling fan running it, but the bearings went in a couple of months. I have a six inch Manrose in line fan now which has a higher throughput and is also up in the roof so quieter. I thought about it and turned wooden "halos" to go on the ceiling to tidy up open holes, getting rid of the mesh grids as they only obstruct the airflow. £70 odd for the fan, £30 ish for the ducting and maybe £20 for the other fittings.




__





Flexible Ducting & Fittings | Just Fans Ltd


Flexible Ducting & Fittings



www.justfans.co.uk


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## Stevekane (24 Oct 2021)

nickds1 said:


> Hah! It's currently with Bulb at around 23p /kWh day and 14p/kWh night, but Bulb are a bit shaky and equivalents, like Octopus, are even more expensive. A year ago it was 13p/kWh daytime.
> 
> So, using a heat pump that has a COP of around 3.5 (which ours is) that means for every kW we put in from the grid, we get 3.5kW of heat in the house, courtesy of the sun.
> 
> Can't ask more, really.


Weve just been moved to Octopus,,received an email today that reveals our standing charges alone will be £180 p/year!!


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## signalman steve (25 Oct 2021)

Try living in a grade two listed cottage with a council who thinks looks and heritage is more important than practicalities, won’t even allow us double glazing and I’m talking bespoke mega expensive joiner made thin profiles so as not to upset the public from twenty meters away. The oil system we have works fine and with the wood burners coming into winter it’s toastey but the heat we lose through the windows is scandalous but eh it’s heritage so it takes precedence


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Oct 2021)

I assume you bought it before they listed it?


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## signalman steve (25 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I assume you bought it before they listed it?


No after and semi knew what I was getting into but with a changing climate and ethos thought the powers that be would be prone to compromise


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Oct 2021)




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## sirocosm (25 Oct 2021)

Lard said:


> I’ve been following this conversation with interest and here’s my query…..our 1960’s bungalow has the ugliest facing brick known to man  but does have nice wide soffits . The cavity walls were ‘bead’ filled many years previous to us moving in and, perhaps fortuitously, we have had no issue with damp/interstitial condensation (IC) etc.
> I would like kill a few birds with as few stones as possible and so why don’t I add further EXTERNAL insulation and have it rendered to any colour certified suitable by she who knows better? Thus warming the house and vastly improving its looks at the same time.
> Am I imagining this but did I not read somewhere that there is the potential to cause IC through the addition of external insulation? Surely I’m correct (thinking back to my old ONC study days and the dew point curve) that by increasing the EXTERNAL temperature the dew point is pushed outwards and, therefore, lessening the chance of causing IC? Something in me is saying that I may cause a problem but I can’t see how? Any thoughts?



This is very common in Germany. They put some sort of rigid foam on the outside of the building, typically 10cm or thicker, and then they render directly over that. They attach it with some sort of anchors that have large (8cm?) washers. I suppose you would need to do something around the windows as well, although most I time I saw it done, they were changing the windows at the same time. I spoke to an architect there and he said it was better to have the masonry inside the insulation, because then the wall stays warm.


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## Jameshow (25 Oct 2021)

signalman steve said:


> Try living in a grade two listed cottage with a council who thinks looks and heritage is more important than practicalities, won’t even allow us double glazing and I’m talking bespoke mega expensive joiner made thin profiles so as not to upset the public from twenty meters away. The oil system we have works fine and with the wood burners coming into winter it’s toastey but the heat we lose through the windows is scandalous but eh it’s heritage so it takes precedence


Can you not have secondary glazing. 

Or call in some legal eco zealots to take the council to court!!! They seem to find court cases where others don't!!! 

Cheers James


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## dickm (25 Oct 2021)

And another vote for Morso's Squirrel. Brilliant beasts!


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## 1steven (25 Oct 2021)

signalman steve said:


> Try living in a grade two listed cottage with a council who thinks looks and heritage is more important than practicalities, won’t even allow us double glazing and I’m talking bespoke mega expensive joiner made thin profiles so as not to upset the public from twenty meters away. The oil system we have works fine and with the wood burners coming into winter it’s toastey but the heat we lose through the windows is scandalous but eh it’s heritage so it takes precedence


I lived in a couple of listed buildings and find secondary glazing helps


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## 1steven (25 Oct 2021)

sirocosm said:


> This is very common in Germany. They put some sort of rigid foam on the outside of the building, typically 10cm or thicker, and then they render directly over that. They attach it with some sort of anchors that have large (8cm?) washers. I suppose you would need to do something around the windows as well, although most I time I saw it done, they were changing the windows at the same time. I spoke to an architect there and he said it was better to have the masonry inside the insulation, because then the wall stays warm.


They offered to fit that to my Croft on Orkney that was built in 1800 it would have trapped the water between the foam and the stone I declined.


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## Skydivermel (25 Oct 2021)

Interesting thread which I've been following along with. I'm in a 4 bed detached in Essex built circa 1982. Cavity Wall Insulation, 150mm Loft insulation, Double glazed with GCH. Only me & the missus rattling around in the place. Energy costs this coming year are going to be circa 1,500 - 2,000 PA. Boiler is circa 15- 20 years old and although working OK its probably time to replace it.

I looked into an ASHP. I've just had a quote for £14,225 installed which doesn't include the radiators. The grant available in April 22 is £5k. The current RHI is 10.92p kWh available for 7 years. This will give me around £9k back over that time, so my outlay will be in excess of £7K.

You cant get both the grant & the RHI, it's either or. So no incentive for me to splash out. So much for the govt wanting everyone to go green. So I guess for me it's a more energy efficient replacement boiler at 2K and be done with it.


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## woodieallen (25 Oct 2021)

Jameshow said:


> ...
> Or call in some legal eco zealots to take the council to court!!! They seem to find court cases where others don't!!!
> 
> Cheers James


Too busy gluing themselves to the M25


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## gmgmgm (26 Oct 2021)

robotmannick said:


> 1) Keep the biomass boiler. No installation cost, but the cost of logs, combined with the physical work (and time) required to manage log stores and feed the boiler, not to mention the inconvenience makes this somewhat unappealing.



If you have your own supply of wood, then definitely keep the biomass boiler. If you don't then it's slightly tougher. But here are some thoughts based on indirect experience:
1. if you have the biomass boiler fitted outside and the pipes are accessible, you can (fairly) easily add more boilers to the circuit e.g. ASHP/GSHP or smaller wood-chip/pellet. This is a big advantage over starting from scratch.
2. ASHP is very convenient, switch-on, switch-off. As above, since you already have the piped circuit, it should be fairly easy to fit, and doesn't need to be huge, as it can run 24/7.
3. wood-chip is much more convenient than logs, but requires a decent volume for storage (garage/barn). Several people I know have a wood-chip boiler, but keep a stash of logs nearby as a backup. There are moving parts in a wood-chip boiler, and a bit more to go wrong. Can your biomass boiler handle wood-chip, and a feed/auger (many can have this added as an option)? Even if it's manual, shovelling woodchip can feel easier than handling logs. Store a pile of wood, then get a big chipper in every year or so.
4. wood pellet is the easiest system, but it's expensive as you need to buy in the pellets regularly, and store them somewhere dry.


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## hairy (26 Oct 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I have a Dowling multi fuel in a rather small living room with six inch insulated ducting and an in line fan in the roof going to the main bedroom and the kitchen. Works brilliantly.


My Father in law did this but ducts from the ceiling in the heated room to the floor of an adjoining room, and the fans on the floor outlets rather than the ceiling inlets. His reasoning was there was no power in the warm ceiling area and he couldn't see any difference where the fans were.
Result 100% useless. 
Because fans are better pushing at the start of the duct than pulling at the end????


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Oct 2021)

Hmmm ........ I don't know the physics of that. I didn't attempt to duct it down to floor level but I doubt that in itself would make much difference. I haven't actually tried it yet with the inline fan, but it worked well enough with the ceiling fan, and the inline one will be only a couple of feet away from where that was and it's three times the throughput without accounting for the grids being removed.


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## Fordgate1 (26 Oct 2021)

Very thick insulating curtains


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## Just4Fun (26 Oct 2021)

hairy said:


> My Father in law did this but ducts from the ceiling in the heated room to the floor of an adjoining room, and the fans on the floor outlets rather than the ceiling inlets. His reasoning was there was no power in the warm ceiling area and he couldn't see any difference where the fans were.


I did something similar. I made a hole at ceiling level between 2 rooms, one of which gets a lot hotter than than the other when my solar panels are working well. In the cooler room I ran a duct down to floor level and I put a fan at the top and bottom, but so far I have only connected the bottom fan. I have run a power supply up through the vertical ducting and over into the warmer room, I just have not yet got round to fitting the ceiling level fan.


> Result 100% useless.


Yup ... same result here.
I will see if the situation improves when I install the celing level fan.


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## Misterdog (30 Oct 2021)

eribaMotters said:


> The cost of electricity is going to be lower than gas




*Unit rates
Electricity:* 19.89p per kWh

*Gas:* 3.94p per kWh


Though not at the minute !! ( my current tariff as of this week)..




> In recent years, Great Britain has seen rapid growth in renewable electricity sources like wind and solar. Despite this, gas-fired power generation still provided approximately 42% of electricity demand in 2016.


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## signalman steve (30 Oct 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Can you not have secondary glazing.
> 
> Or call in some legal eco zealots to take the council to court!!! They seem to find court cases where others don't!!!
> 
> Cheers James


Hi James , yes I could have but not a fan , am just old and grumpy , one of the few perks as you age


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## sirocosm (30 Oct 2021)

1steven said:


> They offered to fit that to my Croft on Orkney that was built in 1800 it would have trapped the water between the foam and the stone I declined.



I don't think I would insulate an 1800s stone house on the outside, or even a nice brick house. We live in a 30s brick house with cavity wall on the main floor, and rendering it would ruin the look of the house, and the street, so we are not sure what to do. I would only insulate on the outside of a house made of block or crappy (ugly) brick. The architect in Germany told me that insulation on the outside shifts the dew point outward to within the insulation itself, with the masonry staying pretty much at the internal house temperature.

I also saw them doing this on new builds. Houses were mostly built out of blocks a full brick thick with cement slab (upper) floors that were partially poured in place. Rigid insulation was on the outside of the block. For the new houses they didn't use anchors, they used some kind of cement product to bond the insulation directly to the block, like a giant tile job. For some reason cavity wall with insulation in-between was not popular there, probably because few houses were finished in brick on the outside, they were all rendered.


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## signalman steve (30 Oct 2021)

1steven said:


> I lived in a couple of listed buildings and find secondary glazing helps


She who must be obeyed doesn’t like them


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## eribaMotters (30 Oct 2021)

Misterdog said:


> *Unit rates
> Electricity:* 19.89p per kWh
> 
> *Gas:* 3.94p per kWh
> ...


Mine is also way off at present:-
Electricity unit rate: 18.52p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 22.64p per day

Gas unit rate: 3.006p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 26.08p per day 

Colin


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## hairy (30 Oct 2021)

sirocosm said:


> insulation on the outside shifts the dew point outward to within the insulation itself, with the masonry staying pretty much at the internal house temperature.



The thatched house we used to live in had some sort of electric damp proof course, not sure what it actually was but the walls weren't damp.
Currently we have an old stone built building that one day I would like to make habitable. Within the walls is rubble and clay but the inside and outside faces are bare stone and beautifully made.
To insulate either face would be a shame, but the outside would at least make the whole thing more weather proof. 
I thought that once the walls had dried out in time there wouldn't be anything much to condensate between the outer stone face and the insulation? Would there have to be a ventilated gap somehow too?


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## Misterdog (30 Oct 2021)

Electro-Osmosis Damp Proofing | Twistfix


Electro osmosis damp proofing. Lectros DPC system is the only damp proofing treatment for stone walls that is installed above timber floor joists.




www.twistfix.co.uk


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## Misterdog (30 Oct 2021)

hairy said:


> The thatched house we used to live in had some sort of electric damp proof course, not sure what it actually was but the walls weren't damp











Electro-Osmosis Damp Proofing | Twistfix


Electro osmosis damp proofing. Lectros DPC system is the only damp proofing treatment for stone walls that is installed above timber floor joists.




www.twistfix.co.uk


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## clogs (30 Oct 2021)

My old converted 7 bed water mill in France had 1m thick outter walls and 
0.5-0.75m ish supporting walls...all made of mud and random stone....
footings were 1/2 coffin size lump of cut lime stone.....
built before 1700 and no damp course of course...
the house was never damp even as it was an old mill at the bottom of a huge area of hills.....so plenty of water.....
we had a wood burning boiler that worked well, the house took roughly 6 weeks to get toasty and after that the boiler just ticked over just thru the day.....
it would self lite first thing in the morning.....
In a bad winter we used 3cu/m of oak but often only 1/2 that.....
we were there solid for 16 years.....
I guess the big roof overhangs and huge gutters helped a lot.....
with excellent ground drainage.....
window were single glazed hand made, Oak framed...no draughts....
and we never closed the shutters......
oh, the whole house had full cellers and they were dry as well......
big enough to store antique cars in.....(fuel drained of course)...
just sayin......


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## 1steven (31 Oct 2021)

sirocosm said:


> I don't think I would insulate an 1800s stone house on the outside, or even a nice brick house. We live in a 30s brick house with cavity wall on the main floor, and rendering it would ruin the look of the house, and the street, so we are not sure what to do. I would only insulate on the outside of a house made of block or crappy (ugly) brick. The architect in Germany told me that insulation on the outside shifts the dew point outward to within the insulation itself, with the masonry staying pretty much at the internal house temperature.
> 
> I also saw them doing this on new builds. Houses were mostly built out of blocks a full brick thick with cement slab (upper) floors that were partially poured in place. Rigid insulation was on the outside of the block. For the new houses they didn't use anchors, they used some kind of cement product to bond the insulation directly to the block, like a giant tile job. For some reason cavity wall with insulation in-between was not popular there, probably because few houses were finished in brick on the outside, they were all rendered.


That’s a good point, someone had rendered our Croft any years back. I am slowly removing it and finding damp behind the render.


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## 1steven (31 Oct 2021)

Misterdog said:


> *Unit rates
> Electricity:* 19.89p per kWh
> 
> *Gas:* 3.94p per kWh
> ...



Our electric company (Green) went bust we were moved to Shell now paying
Standing charge (per day)27.39pUnit rate (per kWh)20.834p
can’t move as no one is taking on new customers​


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## hairy (31 Oct 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Electro-Osmosis Damp Proofing | Twistfix
> 
> 
> Electro osmosis damp proofing. Lectros DPC system is the only damp proofing treatment for stone walls that is installed above timber floor joists.
> ...


That's really helpful thank you.

If the wall at ground level repels the water does that mean that rain water running down it will be repelled back upwards?


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## Misterdog (31 Oct 2021)

Interesting read.









Heat and Buildings Strategy: Will Heat Pumps Replace Gas Boilers? - Build It


When the Heating and Buildings Strategy was announced last week, there was a lot of chatter and a lot of cherry-picking. I’ve waded through the published document and in truth it’s a swamp of stuff that, ultimately, says very little. I was hoping the Heat and Buildings Strategy would give us...




www.self-build.co.uk


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Dec 2021)

It's handy to have a lathe. One vent in the living room by the stove, one in the kitchen and one in the bedroom. I removed the grids as they would only restrict the the flow. Six inch insulated flexible ducting, insulated again below and above, a "Y" piece, a Manrose in line fan Manrose MF150S 150mm In-Line Mixed Flow Extractor Fan (others available), and it works really well - it makes the room the stove is in much more comfortable as well.


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## Spectric (20 Dec 2021)

Good idea Phil, get that warm air moving around the house and everyone benefits.


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