# Braces?



## Keefaz

Hi, all!

Newbie here, again. I would like to know about braces! The type that you use to drill into wood, I mean. :lol:

Now, I'm not a total neanderthal, but there is definitely something I like about using hand tools when I can. Maybe it's the fact I don't have the room for big machines or maybe it's more that I find it harder to mess things up when I go under my own steam rather than electricity...

Anyway. I'm looking at braces and hand drills. What I'm wondering is if it's possible to use my current drill bits with a brace? Or do I need to use the old-school style bits? And is a brace a better tool than a hand drill?

Any help, much appreciated!

Keith.


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## MikeW

Hi Keith,

Braces can be a definite slope to slide down all their own! Even easier to justify multiple braces than most other handtools...

With the 3- and 4-jaw type of brace chucks, one can hold as small a regular or bradpoint bit as the jaws allow. I have hand drills with chucks small enough that allow me to use even the smallest of numbered bits.

I find that the various bits made specifically for braces and hand drills do work more efficiently, however. At least once one starts using bits above say 1/2".

As to which is better, I would say for some things, yes, for many things, no. Limited to woodworking, though, there is nothing an electric drill can do that a brace/hand drill cannot--but the reverse isn't necessarily true.

Faced with a cabinet full of shelf pin holes to drill, I'll use a drill press. Faced with a larger piece of furniture to punch holes for dowel construction, I'll probably use an electric drill. Less than that, I'll use a brace and or hand drill.

Take care, Mike


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## Mittlefehldt

Last Christmas I built a wood storage system in my woodshop, based on one I saw in the Tools and shops edition of FWW. I had to pre drill and put in a large number of #14 wood screws.

I used counter bore whatchamacallit, #10 size, to pre drill the holes and then with an attachment I bought from Lee VAlley that goes into the brace and accepts bits for driving screws, to drive the screws in. I did it all with two hand braces, and while it may have taken me a bit longer than an electric drill would have, it was not hard to do, and I was able to listen to the twelve hour show on the radio of cristmas music from the EC, on the people's radio here in Canada.

BRaces rule and the more I use them the more I like them, I even predrilled in some white oak this summer for a screen door I made and they worked just fine. 

Did I say they were quiet.


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## dedee

FWIW my two braces are some of my favourite tools. I can't admit to have used them often but when ever I do the feeling of power (torque even?) coupled with the lack of noise and speed at which they can bore through wood often comes as a surprise. They can be just as useful for the removal of large rusted screws as ones body weight can be used to hold the bit in the slot.

I would not be without one or two.

Andy


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## Alf

Fwiw, I tend to use nothing larger than 1/4" HHS jobber bits in hand drills - larger in breast drills I suppose, but usually I turn (groan) to a brace instead. Never yet found a 3 or 4 jaw chucked one though  so I'm strictly a square tapered shank user. Except hex-shanked things usually grip pretty well in a 2 jaw chuck, so that's an option if I can't get hold of the square tanged bit I need. If you own a brace and haven't already done so; chuck one of those quick change chucks in, use a brace as a screwdriver and wonder why folks get excited about the pathetic torque on a cordless drill. :wink: 

Hmm, is there a rundown of all the different bit types anywhere on the 'net? Was going to point to some further info and came up a bit short of places to suggest. :-k

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW

> Hmm, is there a rundown of all the different bit types anywhere on the 'net? Was going to point to some further info and came up a bit short of places to suggest.



Perhaps Sanford Moss'?

Take care, Mike


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## Alf

I always get lost on that site, dunno why; but he doesn't do the bits though, does he? Knowing your Jennings from your Gedges and so forth. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Scott

dedee":ttwwnai4 said:


> They can be just as useful for the removal of large rusted screws as ones body weight can be used to hold the bit in the slot.



Agreed! They're the business for large stubborn screws!


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## MikeW

> Hmm, is there a rundown of all the different bit types anywhere on the 'net? Was going to point to some further info and came up a bit short of places to suggest.
> 
> 
> Alf":30iynckh said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always get lost on that site, dunno why; but he doesn't do the bits though, does he? Knowing your Jennings from your Gedges and so forth.
> 
> Cheers, Alf
Click to expand...

Well, it would have helped if I had actually read your first statement :lol: Hey, I was tired...

Try here--with patience. It's an old catalog which has been scanned and the text printed above the pages. Best I could do...

http://www.old-woodworking-tools.com/index/pages/047.htm

Prior to the start page is a section on brace types...


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## Paul Chapman

Keefaz":1v5q66em said:


> Anyway. I'm looking at braces and hand drills.



Hi Keith, 

I use my hand drills all the time - I think they are great for drilling holes up to about 1/4 inch. My only advice would be to get one with a keyed chuck - I've never found that the ones where you do up the chuck by hand grip the drill bit well enough. The two I have are a Footprint and a Record/Marples. I've had them both for many years and wouldn't be without them :wink: 

Paul


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## Evergreen

Keefaz

I've had a Stanley "Universal" ratchet brace for over 40 years and wouldn't be without it. It's not just the huge torque that braces give you, it's the _control._ I've recently replaced five internal doors and had to drill a deep, large diameter hole in the stile of each of them for the tube latch. My old Stanley gave me such control that the hole was perfect each time.

And we ought to sing the praises of hand drills more. I guess the standard hand drill for many years was the Stanley 803, still produced in its classic mode until the 1970s. But I've got an even better one. I bought it in the 1960s and it bears no name, only "Germany". It's as if some German company set out to copy the Stanley 803 and then go one step better. It's chunkier, smoother and better finished than an 803 and I would never part with it. This drill once saved me from possible serious injury. I was drilling into a wall when I felt a very slight "give" in the texture of the wall. I stopped and explored the hole. Carefully. Sure enough, there was a power cable where there shouldn't have been! The tip of my drill bit had just penetrated the plastic conduit and I had stopped in time because of the feedback my hand drill gave me. If I'd been wacking in a hole with a cordless drill, I suspect there would have been a nasty bang!

So, let's give plane fetishism a bit of a rest and let's hear it for braces and hand drills!

Regards.


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## Alf

MikeW":1zmjyu2t said:


> Try here--with patience. It's an old catalog which has been scanned and the text printed above the pages. Best I could do...
> 
> http://www.old-woodworking-tools.com/index/pages/047.htm
> 
> Prior to the start page is a section on brace types...


D'oh, forgot that one. Jogged the old memory though, so amongst others I offer Buck & Hickman too. But I'm still surprised no-one's felt the urge to do the thing properly with photographs and such. Hmm, may have added another Tuit to the long, long list there. #-o

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW

Alf":rj8y0uff said:


> ...But I'm still surprised no-one's felt the urge to do the thing properly with photographs and such. Hmm, may have added another Tuit to the long, long list there. #-o
> 
> Cheers, Alf


Well, perhaps a few page article for one of the rags explaining the efficacies of the various bits--something like Smalser did for FWW on chisels...

Mike


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## Keefaz

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Must admit, I'm a bit surprised that the humble brace and hand drill are held in such esteem! Well, I think I'lll do a little research and have a hunt around for some bargains. Although, I'm sure the missus thinks I needs some _faster_ tools, not slower!

I'll let you know how I get on.

Keith.


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## Anonymous

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## Alf

Mr_Grimsdale":23vddbq6 said:


> Can't see what the £150 or whatever Lea - Nelson could possibly do better. A bit of a mystery all this gear freakery - I mean, all that tedious fettling and flattening - what do they think they are doing?


Buying Lea Nelson so as they _don't_ have to fettle anything... :wink: 

Having something that _works_ and having something you _enjoy using_ are not necessarily the same thing. And wanting something that just works isn't everyone's goal, especially if they're doing this for fun.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous

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## Alf

Mr_Grimsdale":62o3rs6y said:


> Well the sole isn't perfectly flat but I sharpened it, tightened the cap iron by bending it slightly, closed the mouth a bit, candle wax the sole. 20 mins work altogether and hey presto it works perfectly and is a pleasure to use.


Yebbut, Jacob, you have years of experience and know what you're aiming for. A newbie with no-one to guide them can spend hours and hours and still not get the important stuff right. That's if they don't give up after the first hour anyway. Saying it's a 20 minute job is, IMO, as unhelpful as suggesting it's a finicky 4 hour task. Fundamentally there is no one-size-fits-all solution, which is why the question turns up so often, and why the responses are often so multitudinous and varied.

But we seem to be wandering back into plane fetishism when I really liked the idea of "boring" fetishism instead. So a picture quiz to see if anyone's been paying attention to the links. 

There are two major differences of note between these two 3/4" auger bits - what are they? Correct terminology and/or explanation will gain extra credits. :wink: 







Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman

The top one has a couple of cutter thingies so should cut a cleaner hole. It also alows for better chip clearance because of wider spacing between the curly bits :? 

Paul


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## Anonymous

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## Lord Nibbo

Alf":3ord2la4 said:


> There are two major differences of note between these two 3/4" auger bits - what are they? Correct terminology and/or explanation will gain extra credits. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Alf



The bottom one will take twice as long to dissapear out of sight through your bench top, cos its got twice as many turns as the one above, unlike Paul I believe it will cut a better hole with a lot less effort or strain on your arms if your using a brace.


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## Evergreen

Both bits have double spurs but the one on the left is a single twist Irwin pattern and the one on the right is a double twist Jennings pattern.

Do I get the prize? Oh please. I never win anything......


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## llangatwgnedd

Also, one is for cutting across the grain while the other is for cutting with the grain I believe


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## Alf

Gosh, the technical jargon floating about here is amazing... 

The top one is a Solid Centre or Irwin pattern bit with a coarse lead screw. Good for general work in softer woods.

The other is a Jennings pattern, double twist with fine lead screw. Makes for a cleaner hole for cabinet work and the fine lead screw is better for hard woods.

The right lead screw thread can be rather important; this happened to me when using a coarse lead screw in hard wood #-o






So pats on back where appropriate.  Might have to pop down to the workshop and take a pic for the advanced course now... :twisted: 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear

Alf":w1o1bx43 said:


> There are two major differences of note between these two 3/4" auger bits - what are they? Correct terminology and/or explanation will gain extra credits. :wink:



The bottom one was (I suspect) cleaned, polished and honed by someone with an advanced case of OCD.

BugBear


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## Alf

Extra credit to the gentleman with the advanced case of OCD... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear

Keefaz":3eu9ggty said:


> Hi, all!
> 
> Newbie here, again. I would like to know about braces! The type that you use to drill into wood, I mean. :lol:



The biggest problem with braces is acquiring a range of auger bits in good condition for sane money.

Braces are common and reliable. But without auger bits, they're useless (except for screw driving, as pointed out elsewhere).

For holes below 1/4" use a "egg beater" hand drill with a "jobber" twist bit, not a brace and auger.

BugBear


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## Evergreen

Yup. I can go with a boring fetish. 

BTW, I've got a Steers Patent expansive bit by C E Jennings which is a wonderful oddity. I tried to use it once - but only once. It felt frail and struggled to make a clean hole even in soft wood. I got the impression it was a case of ingenuity outstripping usefulness. On the other hand, the efficiency of a properly sharpened spoon bit cutting into softwood is surprising. It looks like it shouldn't work - but it does!

Regards.


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## Alf

bugbear":2wrs1i3s said:


> For holes below 1/4" use a "egg beater" hand drill with a "jobber" twist bit, not a brace and auger.


Yeah, the square-shanked twist bits have always puzzled me. Judging by the only example I have, they're really easy to break...

Anyone want to identify the other bit? 






Cheers, Alf


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## Evergreen

Alf

That looks to me like a snail bit and some people add "gimlet-point" to that. 

I used to have a couple but the ends were badly worn and there was nothing I could do to coax any more life out of them.

Regards.


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## Paul Chapman

Alf":z0shq5f2 said:


> The top one is a Solid Centre or Irwin pattern bit with a coarse lead screw. Good for general work in softer woods.
> 
> The other is a Jennings pattern, double twist with fine lead screw. Makes for a cleaner hole for cabinet work and the fine lead screw is better for hard woods.



Of course I knew that all along and when I gave my answer I was only testing you, Alf, to see if you could spot the deliberate mistakes :^o :^o :^o :^o 

Paul (homer)


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## Evergreen

Hmmm. 

Not so sure now that I've consulted "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Woodworking Handtools, Instruments and Devices" by Graham Blackburn. He shows a very similar bit and call it a "German gimlet bit".

Can I hedge my bets?

Regards.


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## dedee

I was going to say gimlet but could not understand why it would be used in a brace. The only one I have is hand held with a T type handle.

Andy


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## Evergreen

Or have I muddled my molluscs and is it a shell bit?!


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## Alf

Definitely best to hedge bets with this one; more names than phone directory. Salaman principally calls it a Gimlet Bit, with alternative names of Twist Bit, Half Twist Bit, Twisted or Wilk Shell Bit, Persian Bit, Prussian Bit, Cobra Bit, Diamond Bit, Snail Bit and Swiss Pattern Twist Bit.

There's also a Twist Gimlet Bit with a spiral groove up the body and a Shell Gimlet Bit which has, guess what, a shell body with a lead screw.

I'd have accepted any of the above. :lol: And yep, you use it for the same purposes as a handled gimlet.

The only shell bits I have are these ones:






At least the bottom one is a shell bit, or maybe a worn down spoon bit, but the top one is a nose bit, which is I think also counts as a shell bit, but of a certain type. There's more to bits than meets the eye...

But we never finished the augers, and a short trip to the w'shop later and can you name them?






And all along you thought it was only planes, saws and chisels I had a problem with... 

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman

Alf":p5qbdpna said:


> Anyone want to identify the other bit?



It looks like it would drill tapered holes, so would it be for drilling pilot holes for quite large size screws :? 

Paul


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## Paul Chapman

Alf":20zxo1uw said:


> The only shell bits I have are these ones:



Don't let ColinC see those - he'll want to make some very nice carving tools from them :wink: 

Paul


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## Evergreen

Crikey, Alf, they're getting tougher but I'll have a go. 

From left to right

a) Scotch or square nosed b) Scotch-eyed c) Solid Nose or "Unbreakable"

My sources? "Classic Tools" by Garrett Hack and a very useful booklet produced by Wm Ridgeway in the 1970s, I think.

I'll have to go and lie down now.


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## Alf

Sheesh, obviously not tough enough... 

a) Yep, Scotch it is. For hardwoods and all kinds of rough constructional work.

b) Hmm, might be that too, but I was looking for "Gedge pattern". Good for end grain, and with no spurs sticking downwards to, good for angled work too.

c) Yep, Solid nose, or Bull nose or Unbreakable. One for the tough tasks, enlarging existing holes and again, like the Gedge, boring at an angle.

My source being Salaman's Dictionary of Woodworking Tools.

Well I might as well go on with this, now I've started. Two more:

What are these and what's the benefits of one over the other?





And possibly a tricky one; what are these? Extra marks for getting the different names right and knowing when to use which one (could use some guidance there myself...  )





Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous

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## Evergreen

You rotter, Alf, I can't resist a challenge.

The first one (on the left) is a New Pattern centre bit which is used for boring shallow holes. It can pull itself into the wood with its threaded nose. The one on the right is a brad point centre bit (sometimes called Old Pattern for obvious reasons). It has to be pushed into the wood but has the advantage of greater control. It's good for boring into thin wood because its point won't split the wood. When the tip shows through on the other side, you withdraw it and complete the boring from the other side.

The other bits are all countersinks but I'll need another look at them. Will post again in a minute.


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## Evergreen

Here we go on the countersinks.

On the left is a flat head, the middle one looks like a rose head and the right hand one is a snail or snail horn.

Incidentally, Alf, I've just found an illustration of that gimlet-bit-with-many-names in my little booklet by Wm Ridgeway. Interestingly, it was still manufactured in the 70s in a version for electric drill use. It went by the name of cobra drill, one of its aliases that you've already identified.

Regards.


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## Evergreen

Whoops, forgot the guidance on the use of countersinks.

I've owned all three in the past and used the flat head and the rose head for opening up the holes in brass hinges just a tad, to get the screws to bed down a bit more. Don't think they would be very good on steel. My old rose head would countersink wood but not especially well. The snail countersink is purported to be good for countersinking hardwoods. I've never tried it for that. I keep a selection of old bits just for interest, really.

Of course, if my identifications are wrong, this post is all a load of dingo's kidneys!

Regards.


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## Alf

Ooo, he's good, y'know. =D> 10/10  Something a little more challenging perhaps...? :-k

How about these (haven't cleaned the top one yet, before you all comment):







Now these look like normal Jennings bits, but they're about 100mm long; what are they for and why are they desirable?






And just to finish up before you all start throwing things, a couple of easy ones:











That's all my brace bits done and dusted; lucky for you I don't have a hollow auger, dowel pointer, Forstner....

Cheers, Alf


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## Evergreen

Right, I'm back now.

The first is a chairmaker's or tapered reamer for tapered holes. 

The next is a square reamer.

The pair of short auger bits look like dowel bits. They're purported to be more accurate than ordinary augers and taper slightly back towards the tang end so they don't enlarge the hole as you drill it.

Then there's an expansive bit. Steers Patent, like mine maybe?

Finally, a plain turnscrew, a double ended turnscrew and a forked turnscrew.

You've got a great collection, Alf. I feel guilty about getting rid of some of my old bits now.

Regards.


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## Colin C

Paul Chapman":2qiisu9t said:


> Alf":2qiisu9t said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only shell bits I have are these ones:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let ColinC see those - he'll want to make some very nice carving tools from them :wink:
> 
> Paul
Click to expand...


Tempting but I have about 10 to keep me going :roll:  and they go from 3/8 - 3/16 I think :-$


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## Colin C

Dont tell Alf but I have two dowel pointers too :-$ 8-[ \/


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## Paul Chapman

Alf":cbt6o4en said:


> and why are they desirable?



'Cos you've got 'em and we haven't  

Paul


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## engineer one

in the older days, my dad used a special kind of hand drill to 
drill into stone monuments to put the lead into the letters.

it was a kind of hand driven wolf drill, but with a kind of 
hammer action. must see if we still have it, lying around.

i must say i found "egg beaters" difficult to use, but a chest 
brace with the short ratchet handle, or the longer one certainly
have advantages, but of course it is almost impossible to 
get newly made hand type auger bits.

alf do the machine ones work with hand braces?

paul :wink:


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## MikeW

What a great thread!

So when's the podcast of using these bits, Alf?  

Take care, Mike


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## Alf

Evergreen sweeps the board again! The expansive bit is Clark's patent; I always thought Steer's a bit superior, having the worm screw and rack adjustment. On this one you just move the thing to where you want without any gismocity at all.  Somehow I've managed to end up with 3 Clarks... 



Paul Chapman":2gyly4o1 said:


> Alf":2gyly4o1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> and why are they desirable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Cos you've got 'em and we haven't
Click to expand...

Sorry, Paul. 

No, the reason is they're actually the size they say they are. The average run of auger bits wasn't made to the exact size but can be up to 1/16" (iirc) larger. Worth watching out for...

Colin, I can't see how you're going to make carving tools out of dowel pointers... :-k :wink: Talking of oddities I don't have, would you believe I actually saw an adjustable hollow auger once - and _didn't buy it_. #-o Dunno what I was thinking.

Paul, the modern machine ones do, yes, albeit they always worry me that they'll break if used in anything hard.

Mike, Podcast? Unintended joke...? Pod bit - short, pod-shaped bit with a twisted body and lead screw. :lol:

I'll stop boring you know and go and get a life - I've heard they're terribly useful. 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW

Alf":3eea4mpg said:


> ...Mike, Podcast? Unintended joke...? Pod bit - short, pod-shaped bit with a twisted body and lead screw. :lol:


Not touching that with a ten-foot pole...


Alf":3eea4mpg said:


> ...I'll stop *boring *you know and go and get a life - I've heard they're terribly useful.  Cheers, Alf


Now that was an intentional pun...

But nah, gettin' a life ain't what it's cracked up to be...Look at me, a fine example of one without a life. :lol: 

Well, the thread was a lot more entertaining than reading Salaman et al. And while I have heard of various bits, I haven't seen all of them, much less hold 'em. I have a few favorites, a few work horses and recently picked up a few replacements to ones which were getting a little thin to sharpen or were stolen years ago.

While I have, well, many bits, I really only use maybe a half dozen or so with any regularity. For angled holes, the spoon bits are easier for me to start and get moving in the right direction, but I often will switch to an double-twist auger unless it isn't a deep hole.

When accuracy in starting a hole is important to me, I like center bits as I can center punch the mark and the point of the bit is sharp enough to press into the mark pretty well.

Then there are the various type of braces...got my favorites there, too...

Take care, Mike
enduring the warmest night on record--going back into the 1800s...it was 42 C in the shop today...it is 31 right now...


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## Alf

MikeW":3c1b82px said:


> Alf":3c1b82px said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I'll stop *boring *you know and go and get a life - I've heard they're terribly useful.  Cheers, Alf
> 
> 
> 
> Now that was an intentional pun...
Click to expand...

Guilty as charged 



MikeW":3c1b82px said:


> Then there are the various type of braces...got my favorites there, too...


Gonna make us beg...? :roll: 



MikeW":3c1b82px said:


> enduring the warmest night on record--going back into the 1800s...it was 42 C in the shop today...it is 31 right now...


Seems pretty much everyone's sweltering (by their own standards). Lots cooler down here today, but looking to warm up again next week. :roll: 42° is no fun at all 

Cheers, Alf


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## Colin C

Alf":141rcro2 said:


> Colin, I can't see how you're going to make carving tools out of dowel pointers... :-k :wink: Talking of oddities I don't have, would you believe I actually saw an adjustable hollow auger once - and _didn't buy it_. #-o Dunno what I was thinking.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Alf if I show all of my secrets right away, I will have nothing to show next month :roll: :wink: .
I have tried to stop thinking about all the bits and tools I could have gone cheap and didnt buy ](*,) ](*,) #-o  ( see what you have started [-( :roll: )


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## Evergreen

It was fun and thanks to Alf for setting up the visual quizzes. 

Braces and hand drills are tools with specific and genuine advantages over their modern counterparts. But they've almost disappeared from the tool catalogues in the face of the all-conquering cordless drill and drill press.

Maybe we could get Rob Lee to produce a brace for the 21st century? 

Or Mike W could customise some old Stanleys and give them bubinga handles and hand-filed chucks?

Just a thought...!


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## Colin C

If you look around you can still get them with rosewood hands for pennys  

I have two, one with a short handle and one with the longer handle, plus I dont think I payed more than £5 for each for them


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## Alf

Colin C":2qpegdtn said:


> I dont think I payed more than £5 for each for them


Here I am setting them up for a load of braces for sale and you go and say that... #-o 

Cheers, Alf :wink:


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## Colin C

Opps (homer) :-#


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## Philly

I've been buying up braces at our local car boot sales. Never pay more than 50p :shock: My last two were 10p each............
They came along with two dovetail saws and a panel saw. An expensive day at £1.75  
Cheers
Philly


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## MikeW

And just when you think the game is over...

Another illustrated view of bits on Wiktor's site

Take care, Mike


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## Alf

Must be something in the air... :lol: 

Remembered I'd forgotton the almost-famous Bit Extension too , although the chances of anyone here seeing one of those is slight. (Cue Philly and/or Martin to say they got theirs for 50p... :roll: )

Cheers, Alf

Who's got most of her braces free with something else  :lol:


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## deirdre

Alf":ir50pp0i said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":ir50pp0i said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well the sole isn't perfectly flat but I sharpened it, tightened the cap iron by bending it slightly, closed the mouth a bit, candle wax the sole. 20 mins work altogether and hey presto it works perfectly and is a pleasure to use.
> 
> 
> 
> Yebbut, Jacob, you have years of experience and know what you're aiming for. A newbie with no-one to guide them can spend hours and hours and still not get the important stuff right. That's if they don't give up after the first hour anyway. Saying it's a 20 minute job is, IMO, as unhelpful as suggesting it's a finicky 4 hour task. Fundamentally there is no one-size-fits-all solution, which is why the question turns up so often, and why the responses are often so multitudinous and varied.
Click to expand...


Especially when newbies (such as myself) tend to buy a bunch of planes (that need fettling) all at once. Fettling one plane isn't nearly as intimidating as fettling twenty. If it weren't for vendors like LV and LN, I might have taken an A2 blade to the throat already out of sheer frustration.


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## deirdre

Evergreen":3mt6taqf said:


> You've got a great collection, Alf.



She sure does. I'd never realized how much of a slope drill bits offered. Wow.


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## bugbear

Alf":1k4p10cw said:


> Must be something in the air... :lol:
> 
> Remembered I'd forgotton the almost-famous Bit Extension too , although the chances of anyone here seeing one of those is slight. (Cue Philly and/or Martin to say they got theirs for 50p... :roll: )



Err. Galootaclaus and 50p respectively...

The latter was recent, and was a VERY rusty Skinner.

Fortunately the extension body is "OK", and the chuck and jaws are destined to be replaced. Skinner braces are quite common, and I'm assuming (hah!) the chucks are interchangeable.

BugBear


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## deirdre

Mr_Grimsdale":3g5aupcu said:


> Anyway Deidre; as a 'newbie' what on earth are you up to buying 20 decrepit planes at a time? Surely asking for trouble in IMHO! Why didn't you raise a mortgage and buy 20 new LNs instead?



Well, you know, around here you could buy ALL of LN (the entire company) for the price of a house. 

I think one of my problems was really not knowing what to look for when buying vintage, especially when there's so few local sources of vintage tools. I *now* know where they are, but didn't when I needed them.

While it's a diversion, I've now got eight bench planes, three spokeshaves, two block planes, two scrubs, and 15 other planes (including a Stanley 45 and a 46). I've sold several planes, including a pair of new Stanley block planes I'd tuned.

Just call me a sucker for gizmosity, especially gizmos like the Stanley 48.


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## Alf

bugbear":10yr13b3 said:


> Alf":10yr13b3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remembered I'd forgotton the almost-famous Bit Extension too , although the chances of anyone here seeing one of those is slight. (Cue Philly and/or Martin to say they got theirs for 50p... :roll: )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Err. Galootaclaus and 50p respectively...
> 
> The latter was recent, and was a VERY rusty Skinner.
Click to expand...

_Gott in himmel_... ](*,)


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## Anonymous

The object in the bottom of this picture is a Greenlee 18" bit extension still in the original wrapper. I don't know how much I paid for it because it came with the 2 Stanley 923 braces (8" & 12"), a boxed set of Greenlee Irwin pattern bits, an expansion bit, countersink and spare unopened #6 bit. IIRC, I paid $20 for the lot.


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## Paul Chapman

That looks like it was a real bargain buy, Roger :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf

North American bit extension purchases for laughable amounts *don't count*  

Tsk, shiny braces. Whatever next? Wooden planes without cracks...? :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous

Alf":12tcfrux said:


> North American bit extension purchases for laughable amounts *don't count*
> 
> Tsk, shiny braces. Whatever next? Wooden planes without cracks...? :roll: :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I am constantly surprised that some tools which are very common here are scarce there. My romantic notion of GB is that it is the mother of our North American woodworking traditons, everyone has a Graham Blackburn or David Charlesworth in the family and antique hand tools are everywhere. :lol: 

Wooden planes get cracks??


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## Alf

Roger Nixon":6g50ez36 said:


> I am constantly surprised that some tools which are very common here are scarce there.


Well maybe they're there but we can't find 'em for the thick layer of infill planes and brass-backed saws... :roll: :lol: 

Got a David Charlesworth mint in box in a cupboard somewhere; been in the family for ages. Even has the accessories; Stanley #5 1/2, 6" steel rule, emery boards... Think it might even be the talking one, hang on... Yeah, says here "Pull the string to activate classic phrases such as 'Never on chisels, please', 'You cannot produce a a fine shaving without a flat sole' and 'See page 15 of my first book' (Page number may vary)" :wink:

I'll just go now, before David sees this... 8-[ Sorry, Mr. C 

Cheers, Alf

Just say it's not only the planes that are cracked round here...


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## Anonymous

Ya know, Alf, I'd buy one of those talking DC's. :lol: 

My wife was given a "Mr. Perfect" doll as a gift. Squeeze his hand and he says things like "You're going shopping by yourself? Why don't I tag along and carry your bags?" "Actually, I don't know where I'm going. I'll just pull over here and ask directions."


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## deirdre

Alf":vg0h4efx said:


> Got a David Charlesworth mint in box in a cupboard somewhere; been in the family for ages. Even has the accessories; Stanley #5 1/2, 6" steel rule, emery boards... Think it might even be the talking one, hang on... Yeah, says here "Pull the string to activate classic phrases such as 'Never on chisels, please', 'You cannot produce a a fine shaving without a flat sole' and 'See page 15 of my first book' (Page number may vary)" :wink:
> 
> I'll just go now, before David sees this... 8-[ Sorry, Mr. C
> 
> Cheers, Alf
> 
> Just say it's not only the planes that are cracked round here...



Snarf! I lost my morning coffee with that.

I think you forgot, "That board was flat a minute ago!" (One of my favorite lines from a video of his. Note to self: if borrowing a plane to try from DC, make sure you keep the board flat.)

You all have made me realize that I haven't even begun to approach the brace slope yet. I have my first eggbeater and Yankee push drill arriving soon. We have two braces, but uncharacteristically, I have no idea what they are.


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## Mittlefehldt

Back on page three, there was a picture of a bit with a split or forked end, I was curious what it is actually used for. I ask because I have one and have pondered this many times, well I wondered when I bought it actually for a a dollar, along with two other obviously screwdriver bits. 

Would it possibly be for tightening or removing split nuts in saw handles?


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## Alf

Mittlefehldt":1sywyjl3 said:


> Back on page three, there was a picture of a bit with a split or forked end, I was curious what it is actually used for. I ask because I have one and have pondered this many times, well I wondered when I bought it actually for a a dollar, along with two other obviously screwdriver bits.
> 
> Would it possibly be for tightening or removing split nuts in saw handles?


It would - and any other similarly designed bolt.

Deirdre, definitely don't borrow a plane from DC - chances are it'll also involve borrowing his bench too so you'd better be prepared to plane on tiptoe. :shock:

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Roger, unfortunately talking DCs lose their voice under North American conditions unless you buy the additional throat pastel accessories. Try Ebay. :wink:


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## MikeW

Hey, wasn't this topic about braces?...






Fray Spofford-type braces are quick 'n' easy to change bits with...and besides, the pewter rings holding the wrist handles on are a nice touch.

For any project, if one relies on braces and associated bits, it is helpful to have a variety of braces to hold the various bits for the project. So lets see. That would be about 20 of the things...slip slidin' away.

Take care, Mike


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## bugbear

MikeW":3ce4wap0 said:


> Fray Spofford-type braces are ...



Not seen very often in the UK #-o 

BugBear


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## MikeW

bugbear":329ehdc3 said:


> MikeW":329ehdc3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fray Spofford-type braces are ...
> 
> 
> 
> Not seen very often in the UK #-o
> BugBear
Click to expand...

Bummer. They are handy. Not made for great torque, though. Well, one should really use the larger ones for larger bits. I busted one working on the cabin. It had survived a hundred years of family use--and then I go and have a boneheaded moment. Well, seeing how they can break, best they were rarely taken there... :lol: 

But then, y'all have all those lovely Sheffield braces available...

Take care, Mike


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## Alf

Hah, all the Spoffords must be under the layers of infills, brass-backed saws and Ultimatum braces we haven't dug through yet, right next to the bit extensions! :lol:

Hey Mike, how d'you folks do for "sixpenny" aka German, Common Ball or Thumbscrew braces? Alas they're usualy priced a good deal higher than sixpence these days; managed to get mine cheaply 'cos it needed a new thumbscrew. :wink: 5" sweep electrician's braces are common here too but I dunno if the same applies to North America? The bottom of these two belonged to my grandfather; just about the only tool I've inherited. Very handy little devil.






Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW

The thumbscrews are around, though not often, even on eBay. Them use the flat bits like center bits, etc, correct? Never have held one and never have seen bits with them so I haven't a clue as to what goes in 'em.

The only braces with sweeps smaller than 6" I have seen have been in anteek stores in larger cities, such as SF and Seattle. The 6" Bell braces pop up quite often for reasonable cost, both on eBay and locally.

The small Fray above is a 7" sweep, the larger an 8". Don't want to ever need a brace where I need a smaller sweep. That would mean I am either working too hard, or not smart enough :? 

Else I would use a small hand drill loke that beauty on your blog!

But now, come on. Surely you have a dozen Shefield braces stashed somewhere, eh? :roll: Well, I think they can look wonderful. There was a time I wanted a fancy one. 

Take care, Mike


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## Mittlefehldt

You would have thought that with the number of British immigrants coming to Canada in the last one hundred years, you would think this part of the country would be seething with infills, and Sheffield braces, *HAH*. 

I have in six years or so of looking for tools in general seen maybe two Sheffield braces in the wild, one infill. Both braces looked like they had survived, barely, world war one. The dealers who had them were I think not tool types but seemed to have the notion it looks like something that is worth something, and priced them accordingly. There is a beautiful brace for those with tool envy on the cover of last falls Lee Valley catalogue.

I haven't seen a corner brace yet Alf do you have one of those hidden somewhere in your stash, or were you saving that one?

Oddly enough the only tool my wife has from her grandfather is a brace as well, and it works just fine.


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## Alf

Mittlefehldt":6i2edc68 said:


> I have in six years or so of looking for tools in general seen maybe two Sheffield braces in the wild, one infill. Both braces looked like they had survived, barely, world war one.


Hah! That's more than I've seen... 



Mittlefehldt":6i2edc68 said:


> I haven't seen a corner brace yet Alf do you have one of those hidden somewhere in your stash, or were you saving that one?


Alas, that's too exciting for my brace collec-, er _selection_ of users. My mildly brag-worthy braces are limited to a 10" Stanley 901, which seems to be a bit of a rarity even in its homeland, and a Backus patent angle attachment thingy, which I did actually find loose, in the wild, at a car boot sale. :shock: I still look in vain for something as mundane as a larger sweep than 10" though 

Mike, the 5" lends itself to countersinks particularly well, plus anywhere with limited swing when you don't want to faff with a ratchet. You can get some good speed up with 'em.  The sixpennys will theoretically take anything, it's just a square tapered socket and a thumbscrew, but in practice it's really only up to fairly light duty stuff like gimlet bits and the smaller spoons IME. But I expect they vary just as much as any other style of brace so mileage may vary. 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear

Alf":3lb4itzk said:


> Mike, the 5" lends itself to countersinks particularly well, ... You can get some good speed up with 'em.
> .
> .
> Cheers, Alf



Indeedy. My toolchest has a 5" sweep plain brace with a rosehead counter sink permanently mounted, as well as an 8" sweep ratchet brace with a 1/4" hex magnetic bit holder permanently mounted.

Oh, and a footprint egg-beater with a 3mm (pilot for #8 screws) bit permanently mounted.

Owning more drills saves time changing bits  

BugBear


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## MikeW

bugbear":nac9q7m5 said:


> Alf":nac9q7m5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike, the 5" lends itself to countersinks particularly well, ... You can get some good speed up with 'em.
> Cheers, Alf
> 
> 
> 
> Indeedy. My toolchest has a 5" sweep plain brace with a rosehead counter sink permanently mounted, as well as an 8" sweep ratchet brace with a 1/4" hex magnetic bit holder permanently mounted.
> 
> Oh, and a footprint egg-beater with a 3mm (pilot for #8 screws) bit permanently mounted.
> 
> Owning more drills saves time changing bits
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

Well, I have a few that also keep various bits mounted [semi-permantly]...so qnty isn't an issue. But I'll be on the look out for a 5" because, well, I don't have one :lol: 

For countersink I use an old two-speed hand-drill--talk about speed for the countersink. So I don't need an even smaller brace for that. So what do I think I need it for? I dunno. Because... :roll: 

Take care, Mike
back to emails...


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## Alf

MikeW":33g42kdm said:


> Well, I have a few that also keep various bits mounted [semi-permantly]...so qnty isn't an issue. But I'll be on the look out for a 5" because, well, I don't have one :lol:
> 
> For countersink I use an old two-speed hand-drill--talk about speed for the countersink. So I don't need an even smaller brace for that. So what do I think I need it for? I dunno. Because... :roll:


Mike, Mike, Mike, you're just not trying here. [-X You need it to take the countersinks with the square taper that won't fit in the hand drill, silly. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW

Alf":30w25jkg said:


> MikeW":30w25jkg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I have a few that also keep various bits mounted [semi-permantly]...so qnty isn't an issue. But I'll be on the look out for a 5" because, well, I don't have one :lol:
> 
> For countersink I use an old two-speed hand-drill--talk about speed for the countersink. So I don't need an even smaller brace for that. So what do I think I need it for? I dunno. Because... :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike, Mike, Mike, you're just not trying here. [-X You need it to take the countersinks with the square taper that won't fit in the hand drill, silly. :roll:
> Cheers, Alf
Click to expand...

You mean, like this one?







Still, the two-speed spins up faster. Heck, I've used it so much I know how many cranks for various size screws--assuming I apply the same pressure each time, which is mainly the weight of the drill. It's not a light drill.

But the 5" sweep brace? Well, when I find one I'll give it a whirl. I promise. :wink: 

Take care, Mike


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## engineer one

come on guys most of us have enough problems justifying the 
slope that is good hand planes, saws and chisels. 

Now you have opened up this strange and arcane world that is the hand brace, and you are trying to find a reason to buy something else. :-k 

Mike W you are getting dangerous again, no sooner have you got us interested in your new hand saws than you are promoting braces.
is this the next part of your plan to conquer the world of hand tools :? 

alf when you started this thread did you really expect to open up a fourth steep and greasy slope, and then confuse it by offering such a diversity 
of available products. 

Maybe the next part is for you alf to show us how to buy one, then 
check it out and rebuild or make better :lol: :lol: :lol: 

that will teach her, maybe :twisted: :roll: 

nice pickies though

paul :wink:


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## MikeW

engineer one":1jr2zkvs said:


> come on guys most of us have enough problems justifying the
> slope that is good hand planes, saws and chisels.


Someone say chisels? :lol: 
Blue Spruce Toolworks


> Mike W you are getting dangerous again, no sooner have you got us interested in your new hand saws than you are promoting braces.
> is this the next part of *your plan to conquer the world of hand tools *:?


Funny you should say that. Chris S. wrote an article for the Fine Tool Journal [next issue] that basically quotes me as saying that :roll: 


> alf when you started this thread did you really expect to open up a fourth steep and greasy slope, and then confuse it by offering such a diversity of available products.


Of course Alf did... :wink: 

Take care, Mike


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## Alf

engineer one":3cu046mq said:


> alf when you started this thread did you really expect to open up a fourth steep and greasy slope, and then confuse it by offering such a diversity
> of available products.


I didn't start it  But if I had, then "yes" :lol:



engineer one":3cu046mq said:


> Maybe the next part is for you alf to show us how to buy one, then
> check it out and rebuild or make better :lol: :lol: :lol:


Well I did do this already... 

Cheers, Alf


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## mahking51

Err, does this count as a brace or just a hand drill?
Er ist von Deutchland!
Er hat zwei speeds! Er ist sehr bloody heavy! Strange chuck nicht war?
Any comments meine herren (und damen!)?


















Regards
martin


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## Paul Chapman

Mein Gott :shock: :shock:


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## Alf

Gott in himmel, dat ist a gearful, ja? :shock: 

That chuck looks extremely kewl - I dunno, a breat drill I suppose, but what a weird one. If anyone knows about that one I shall be very impressed at the power of t'net.

Cheers, Alf


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## mahking51

Personally I am not yet totally sure that it is not missing a telescopic sight and a 30 round magazine....   

Hopefully Scrit or BB will be able to shed some light on this one?

Regards
Martin


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## engineer one

you sure it is not the mechanism of an early gatling gun????? :lol: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Evergreen

Now _that_ is a serious bit of kit!

Have you noticed that in the third picture, the "chuck" seems to have a strange little face on the end? In fact, I'm not convinced that it's a chuck at all. And the whole thing is so massive and heavy, it might not be intended for drilling at all. How about a reel of some kind, to pull in fishing line or cable of some sort? 

Pretty damn impressive whatever it is.

Regards.


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## mahking51

Re the chuck, I have had it apart as it was frozen.
The key (missing) is a square drive about 3/16 on flats; there is a face plate with two screws which when removed allow the jaws to come almost completely apart, enough for good cleaning. Very robust and positive and would seem to take both round and square bits.
The ratio is changed by pulling out the spring clip on one gear set and moving it out on the shaft about 1/2" to the next detent. Very fast then.

But is it for wood or metal working??? :?: 
Regards
Martin


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## Evergreen

Hmmmmm. OK. Since there are already many "normal" tools for drilling into wood and metal, could this "extraordinary" tool be used for drilling into something else e.g. rock? Do we have any German geologists or miners in the forum???

Regards.


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## Alf

Looks like you're missing a bit, Martin :-k - Ebay auction. Unfortunately the seller doesn't know what they have either.

Cheers, Alf


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## Evergreen

You wait all year for an ultra-rapid German thingamajig to appear and then two come along together......


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## Alf

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## engineer one

interesting machine no doubt, but i wonder whether the handle actually
turns through 360 degrees, it is difficult to see why you would have a
kind of crankshaft there unless something we can't see is happening. :? 

have you actually rotated it and discovered whether it works???

obviuosly some kind of stomach dril, but as you say for what.
i would guess with all the gears, it is for metal, maybe it is for 
putting the curtains up outside a panzer tank :lol: :lol: :lol: 

where and how do we manage to find these old things, and 
that's only the tools not us on the site :twisted: :twisted: 

paul :wink:


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## mahking51

Paul
Yup, it rotates 360 both ways, no rachet I can see. I would really like toknow what this one is for, its got me stumped.
Regards
martin


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## engineer one

interesting to know, so it is a high speed device, but wonder what the 
big box on the front is for, a level perhaps?

have to think that with such gearing. it is designed to make a 
big drill easier to use i think. 

paul :wink:


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## DaveL

Well the bit that the ebay one has looks like a mounting bracket, could fix it to a bench then you could use it to power a grinder. 
The big round bit on the front I take to be a flywheel, looking at the gears that would appear to run at high speed so would help to keep what ever it is turning rotating at a steady speed. 

Maybe not curtains for the panzer, how about driving a pump to refuel? 

I know that I would get into trouble bringing it home..................

So you don't know what its for? So why did you buy it? :roll: :wink:


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## mahking51

> So you don't know what its for? So why did you buy it?



DaveL

Verrrrry goood question...

For £1.50 I just had to have a play with it and try to find out more about it.
Spot on re the flywheel on the front; IMHO it is definitely a drill not a grinder, but for what I have know idea.

Where are Scrit and BB who I am relying on now that Alf the Omnipotent has given up   (mind you Alf, full marks for unearthing the other one, I was gobsmacked!)
Regards
martin


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## Anonymous

Is this a six penny brace?


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## CONGER

Mah and friends,

'Made in Germany' implies made in Germany... post WW2, but prior to the cold war.

Prior to WW2 things were made in 'Deutschland' or similar ('Deutsches Reich').

Immediately after WW2 things were 'Made in Germany'... though not much of this quality.

During the cold war things were 'Made in West Germany' (or in the BRD... or 'DDR' for east germany). 

Post 'Wende' (re-unification... both misnomers), things are 'Made in Germany'.

These 'rules' are not hard... so anything is possible. I have taken the liberty of posting one of the pics on the german forum; there are many great 'Grufties' on that great site. I will post back as soon as I get any info.

Greetings from a dull but still sweltering Munich.

CONGER - The Irish diaspora in Munich.


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## Alf

Roger Nixon":3dccm17a said:


> Is this a six penny brace?


I bow to someone else's superior knowledge, but no, I don't think so. Sixpenny braces seem to need the big pad, more of a curvy frame and the chuck doesn't seem to be as elegantly shaped as that one. Reckon that could be a shilling brace... :lol: 

Good man, Conger; we await in hope with finger's crossed. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Philipp

@Conger:

'Made in Germany' implies made in Germany... post WW2, but prior to the cold war. 

Prior to WW2 things were made in 'Deutschland' or similar ('Deutsches Reich'). 

Immediately after WW2 things were 'Made in Germany'... though not much of this quality. 

During the cold war things were 'Made in West Germany' (or in the BRD... or 'DDR' for east germany). 

Post 'Wende' (re-unification... both misnomers), things are 'Made in Germany'. 

These 'rules' are not hard... so anything is possible. I have taken the liberty of posting one of the pics on the german forum; there are many great 'Grufties' on that great site. I will post back as soon as I get any info. 


Hi Gerald,

the term "Made in Germany" is quite old and was in use long before WW1. Hence, a product labelled "Made in Germany" may also be from times before WW1.

Guckst Du hier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany

Ottmar has posted a reply upon your inquiry that, however, doen't reveal too much detailed information. According to him it is at least a drill and not a grinder or a machine gun.

BTW, funny postings here regarding this tool!  
@Evergreen: As I geologist I can say that I never have seen a tool like this for drilling rock, but who knows...
engeneer one's assumption that this tool was perhaps used for putting the curtains up outside a panzer tank maybe is the best!

Regards
Philipp


----------



## CONGER

Mah and friends, 

My colleagues on the german WWWWW forum came up trumps... and as life is, it is all different to what I suggested... seems like I spoke through my A&%$E... although there are still some points that require confirmation.

Here is a loose translation of what Ottmar wrote:

The driller (yes, it IS a driller) was manufactured ca. 1900... although it confuses me that the text is peculiarly 'un-german', both in form (Altdeutscheschrift) and content.

The 'handle' can be rotated in one direction, or used as a ratchet. The direction in which the bit rotates can be reversed and the transmission ratio changed by moving the cogwheels around. The example pictured is unusual, as the 'handle' has a counter-balancing weight (presumably for those who twist the handle at more than 1000RPM!). The chuck accomodates 'square' ended bits, which were apparently 'normal' at that time... I wonder if these are the same as the type that fitted into my Dads (long gone) brace?

Viele Gruesse... -gerard-


----------



## CONGER

Hi Philipp and friends... I do not scold, nor do I want to get 'political' (least of all me), but I feel that it is high time that the somewhat outdated militaristic view of the 'german' (Deutsche Michel, Kraut, Hun, Fritz) should be abandoned. Germany is a country that has steered clear of war for the past 60 years (after two dispicable attempts to dominate europe)... that is more than can be said of several of Germanys european neighbours!

I personally believe that this 'tool' was especially designed to revitalise beer in barrels that have been left standing too long at Oktoberfest. As this almost never happens (beer standing around too long!), I believe that the inventor sought different applications... could not find any... and took the route taken by so many others... he offered it on EBAY!

-gerard-


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## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## mahking51

Conger,
Many thanks for the info and research , there does not appear to be a ratchet mechanism that I can see.
Regards
Martin


----------



## engineer one

looking again more carefully at the photos, i think the ratchet is tied in with the crankshaft, and the split pinned shaft, which relates to the 
flywheel at the front.

i would guess that if you move the shaft where the split pin is, the 
drive mechanism might then click into a ratchet capability.

since it is almost certainly a "belly brace", you wonder what its actual
use was. obviously the "brace" was held to one side or the other and 
then the turning hand would make it work. i would guess it was rather
like the old joke about rubbing your belly, and your head with 
different hands and in different rotation, a difficult skill to learn.

actually i wonder whether it was something used in ship building
or repairs?

as for the jokes conger you are right, but 3 major european conflicts 
within less than one hundred years of each other do give people 
pause for thought. the economic miracle since 1946 was spectacular,
but must be placed into the context.

paul :wink:


----------



## Bernhard

as for the jokes conger you are right, but 3 major european conflicts 
within less than one hundred years of each other do give people 
pause for thought. the economic miracle since 1946 was spectacular,
but must be placed into the context.

paul :wink:[/quote]

Paul,

maybe I missed something in school. just for my curiosity when did we start the 3rd major european conflict.

Bernhard


----------



## Alf

Not sure we can even find two. More like one with a 20 year break at half time - with the "winners" helping to guarantee a second half unfortunately. :roll: 

But hey, there was a topic in here some place, wasn't there?

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous

OK, back on topic.
Here is another type of brace for tight quarters






This is a Goodell-Pratt angle brace.


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## Alf

Ooo, that's a cute one. =P~


----------



## engineer one

OT i know, but the first one was 1860's the expansion of the
prussian empire all the way to the gates of paris.

back ot, and i must try to find a photo of the gun used by my old man
for drilling to inlay lead in stone.

paul :wink:


----------

