# Workshop build, wood frame on concrete foundation



## sirocosm

I moved to Norwich last year and bought a 1930s detached house that is a bit of a wreck and the first thing I needed was a workshop. We have a deep yard about 9 meters wide, so I thought to use the workshop to divide the yard. I had in mind something that would look like this when viewed from our kitchen windows at the back of the house. It mostly matches the style of the house. We plan to have an open but covered sitting area in the front.


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## sirocosm

The foundation plan was a concrete grade beam sitting on a concrete footing.


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## sirocosm

I did the ground work with a shovel, and used a small mixer to pour the footing. Here is a picture as the forms are going up for the wall. The rubble is from a small shed that I demolished because the previous owners had let the roof rot and it was full of mold.


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## sirocosm

In Canada (where I am from), I would have just poured a slab, but here I wanted it to be a bit off the ground as I was worried otherwise the bottom of the framing might rot. Here is the finished foundation. I embedded stainless rod in the walls to bolt the sill plates to, and it worked way better than drilling and using anchors which I have done before. The bolts on the sides are also stainless rod, and will be cut off as they were only to hold the forms.


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## sirocosm

It is framed in 45x150 pressure treated wood, with 45x150 rafters and 45x200 ceiling joists. The bolts tying the rafters to the joists were the leftover cutoffs from the form work.


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## sirocosm

The ceiling joists are thicker than they need to be, because I want to use the loft for storage. It is a bit of a trade off between shop height and loft height because the council limits you to 4m total, so the loft is 1.2 from floor to the bottom of the collar ties. The roof is covered in the 18mm plywood which was used for the forms. The floor is 18mm ply.


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## sirocosm

Here is a pic from the house after it was framed and covered in tarps for the winter.


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## sirocosm

I am now working on the roof, if it would ever stop raining. The tiles are almost an exact match for the house, it is too bad they didn't use the same on the kitchen roof they added on the back of the house.


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## sirocosm

The windows were framed but boarded over for the winter, since I need the workshop to make them. This window will let some light in from the back.


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## Adam W.

Looks very tidy and I'm impressed with the plinth you made.


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## Bojam

Agree - good job!


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## AJB Temple

Absolutely top notch concrete work. Very tidy framing and the roof work looks excellent. I would imply you any day!


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## sirocosm

Thanks for the kind words. I am getting older, and I take my time, do a lot of stuff the hard way, so it tends to take me a long time to get anything finished.


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## sirocosm

Got the first half of the roof tiled, and now will start on the other side. This means I will need to bed the verge and ridge tiles in cement. I was planning to do the verges on one side and the bed the ridge tiles as I go, because after tiling there won't be any easy way to get at them. Is this the way it is normally done? 

Any ideas on the best mix? I was thinking 1 cement, 1 lime, 3 sand (sifted ballast actually), and a bit of SBR.


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## Adam W.

You need sharp sand for this and I'd use 1:1:4 or 5 of sand otherwise it might crack if it's too strong.

Here they do the whole ridge with the top two courses installed, then tile up to it. It seems a smart way of doing it as you have battens to stand on and you can do that with the tiles you're using.


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## sirocosm

That sounds like a plan. I was tiling bottom up in 5 tile widths, and figured to do the ridge tiles as I went along. However, this would likely take me some days to finish, and a lot of stop-start with the cement work, which is not ideal. Doing it the way you suggest would allow me to do the whole ridge in one day, and also solves the problem I would have when I get to the ridge peak at the back (with nothing to stand on).

I read ballast is a mix of sharp sand and aggregate. I was just going to screen out the larger stones as I have a pile of ballast left over from the foundation. Do you think that would be OK?


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## Adam W.

Yes, that would be fine. The stones in the sand will add an element of durability and reduce wind erosion. A brushed finish exposes the aggregate which I think is more attractive than a troweled finish.

You may need to add a bit of sand to it as it might not be workable enough and fall straight off the trowel.


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## MARK.B.

Looking great so far,as others have said your foundation work is spot on I liked that you used the leftover threaded rod in the roof structure and you reused the ply.
Have you considered underfloor ducting for dust extraction etc as now is the time as wish you had .


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## sirocosm

Thanks. Currently my dust extraction consists of one of these:


coupled to a cyclone separator and one of those 25l white plastic buckets. 

I guess I am going to have to do something about that. It is not going to be up to the job when I eventually get a thickness planer.


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## Adam W.

You might want to have a bit of experiment to see how many courses you need to go down from the ridge, so that you don't disturb the ridge when you come to lay the tiles up under them and finish off.


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## sirocosm

Yes, I will have to try that. The tiles are supposed to be fastened down, but I am fastening the eaves, the verges, and every 3rd row, which leaves the top 3 rows with screws. I think if I tile 3 rows down from the ridge, and leave the bottom row a little loose, then I will be able to put a tile up underneath. 

I was going to lay cloaking along the ridge for the cement to sit on when bedding the ridge tiles. I was thinking that it could just sit there, it is a pretty tight fit.

No sooner do you get a roof on and the birds start cr**ing on it.


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## Adam W.

sirocosm said:


> The tiles are supposed to be fastened down, but I am fastening the eaves, the verges, and every 3rd row, which leaves the top 3 rows with screws.




Oh!

That's a lot of screws, do you get lots of hurricanes in your part of Norwich ?


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## sirocosm

Adam W. said:


> Oh!
> 
> That's a lot of screws, do you get lots of hurricanes in your part of Norwich ?



The house has the exact same tiles, which are not screwed down at all. Having said that, they do occasionally blow off in the wind.


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## clogs

when doing concrete form work, over the years have done it this way......
decide on the width of the form/mould then cut from blue water mains plastic pipe 20-25mm dia....(or similar but stiff) to the correct width.....
then place the boards and drill thru (I use 10mm dia rod as a min) then just poke the rod thru the cut pipe and tighten...this give you consistancy on form width and it's easy to give the nuts a good nip....
then you can reuse the threaded rod over and over again...
some of my rod has gotta be over 15 years old...
one tip, I put a good dribble of oil on the threads so that a, the conc wont stick and b, keeps the rust away...
most of my work gets rendered so the holes dont matter...


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## sirocosm

clogs said:


> when doing concrete form work, over the years have done it this way......
> decide on the width of the form/mould then cut from blue water mains plastic pipe 20-25mm dia....(or similar but stiff) to the correct width.....
> then place the boards and drill thru (I use 10mm dia rod as a min) then just poke the rod thru the cut pipe and tighten...this give you consistancy on form width and it's easy to give the nuts a good nip....
> then you can reuse the threaded rod over and over again...
> some of my rod has gotta be over 15 years old...
> one tip, I put a good dribble of oil on the threads so that a, the conc wont stick and b, keeps the rust away...
> most of my work gets rendered so the holes dont matter...



That sounds like a good way to do it. In Canada you can buy steel (or stainless) snap ties. They are little flat pieces of metal that have slots in the ends. They go through the forms and then you slide a steel bar through the slots to hold the forms together. The little tabs on the inside hold the forms apart, and the notches allow the ends to break off just below the surface after the concrete has set.


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## Inspector

I remember those snap ties from when I was a framers helper out of high school. They are part of a form rental system that were delivered to the site. Two or three of us would layout (800 to 1500 square foot house) and build the footings from 2x6,8 or 10s with 1x3 across the tops and then set the forms on top. Concrete trucks plus maybe a pumper if access was tight and pour the cement. Usually had it timed to be done on a Friday, having started on a Tuesday or Wednesday, then let them set over the weekend. Monday morning smacked the ends of those snap ties with our framing hammers (still have it), pulled the tabs off the bars and stacked everything for the form rental guys to come and get. The 1x3 were broken off at the base of the foundation and footing and the 2x footing lumber pulled and de-nailed by yours truly for reuse in the house. Tuesday we would start framing.

Pete


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## sirocosm

Inspector said:


> I remember those snap ties from when I was a framers helper out of high school. They are part of a form rental system that were delivered to the site. Two or three of us would layout (800 to 1500 square foot house) and build the footings from 2x6,8 or 10s with 1x3 across the tops and then set the forms on top. Concrete trucks plus maybe a pumper if access was tight and pour the cement. Usually had it timed to be done on a Friday, having started on a Tuesday or Wednesday, then let them set over the weekend. Monday morning smacked the ends of those snap ties with our framing hammers (still have it), pulled the tabs off the bars and stacked everything for the form rental guys to come and get. The 1x3 were broken off at the base of the foundation and footing and the 2x footing lumber pulled and de-nailed by yours truly for reuse in the house. Tuesday we would start framing.
> 
> Pete



Haha, if you had worked in Regina, we might have met. When I was in high school, I worked in a form rental shop, and I was the guy delivering the forms and the waler bar.


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## Inspector

Close. Langley in the Fraser Valley back in the mid 70s.


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## Keefy.

You can use Evostik "Sticks like s**t" to fix your ridge's.


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## lexi

only use mortar on the ridge as you had planned. Nice work. No counterbatten on tile that you show? Not a biggie mind as I have a 70 year old roof with none, but it is a must detail now.


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## sirocosm

lexi said:


> only use mortar on the ridge as you had planned. Nice work. No counterbatten on tile that you show? Not a biggie mind as I have a 70 year old roof with none, but it is a must detail now.



Although there is no counter batten, if you look carefully you can see there are little spacers where the battens are screwed to the joists to let the water drain. Not sure if they are tall enough, but they seemed to work OK when it rained.

Playing with mortar now, it is a bit of an art not to get it all over the place.


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## sirocosm

Ridge tiles. Lucky I have lots of old broken bricks kicking around.


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## lexi

You are doing ok. Try to bed the middle of ridge tile as well as the two ends. It takes more mortar but gives more hold in a storm. Just use your broken tile to fill the voids and make the mortar count.


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## sirocosm

Roof done, floor almost ready to pour.


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## Inspector

Are the shin pokers going to be incorporated later somehow, aside from being a level holder at the moment, or are they destined to be cut off?

Pete


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## sirocosm

I keep thinking they will be useful for something later, but I bet they just get cut off in the end. I cut the outside ones off the day I put on the tanking slurry.


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## sirocosm

Inspector said:


> Are the shin pokers going to be incorporated later somehow, aside from being a level holder at the moment, or are they destined to be cut off?
> 
> Pete



The shin pokers have found a purpose, to hold up the back of the bottom shelf of the work benches.


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## sirocosm

The workshop now has a door, 1930s style. Got it cheap off FB marketplace. It is solid hardwood, meranti I think. The stain glass is fake, but a good fake.


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## sirocosm

Just finished making the window bottoms and frames. The stained glass is recycled, I got 10 of them on Gumtree for £5 each. They were left over from a 30s house after someone replaced their wood windows with plastic. I had them before I started framing, so the openings were designed around them. Waiting now on the textured glass I ordered to go in the bottoms. Rendering is next.


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## lexi

Are you going to wire lath it then apply render?


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## sirocosm

lexi said:


> Are you going to wire lath it then apply render?


Yes, I screwed on wire mesh to hold the render.


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## sirocosm

Here is what it looks like painted.


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## dzj

Windows look nice.


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## davethebb

What a great workshop you have built. I know it's hard work doing it yourself but it is really satisfying - I am coming to the end (externally) of my build by installing the UPVC windows and doors and can't wait to start to use it. I will post some up to date photos later on my thread later.


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## Dave Moore

Hi,
Here’s the gym/workshop I’ve almost completed made from folded metal frame, Cedral fibre/cement board. Roof is 50mm warm roof sandwiched between two sheets of osb and rubber top. Took a while but I only have interior to complete now with boarding and electrics so I can fit out my little bit of workshop and the wife can fit out her gym.
Regards,
Dave


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## lexi

If it was a wet cast, your mix has been rather thick. If you hit onto the background coat then that has been a bit soft. Aris around doors and windows are ragged. You use the aris stick on inside and out to give a nice aris. I wish you had asked for a wee bit more advice.
Could you give the method you used? It is a good effort but could have been better with your method sorted before going ahead, ie samples.


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## sirocosm

Depends on your taste I suppose, but where I am from this type of heavy dash was the only pattern you would see on old houses. Another thing that I noticed when I moved here (also in Germany) is that there is rarely ever any trim around the windows on rendered houses, maybe in the UK it would just rot, but it sure looks a lot nicer IMHO. I didn't put any trim because I thought it would look out of place since the rendered parts of the house don't have any. 

Here is a typical stuccoed (rendered) wood frame house a few blocks from where I used to live:





Windows are flush to the outside, and always have trim around them that stands a wee bit proud of the surface. 

The render on the workshop was done in 3 coats, the first coat over wire mesh, a second coat to cover any protruding wire, and then a heavy dash top coat thrown on with a large brush. In total probably around 1 inch thick. 4 parts sharp sand, 1 part cement and one part lime. Time will tell if it cracks.


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## sirocosm

I am thinking now about trenching in the power. I was thinking of using 6mm direct burial cable. I also had in mind to throw a pair of 1/2" plastic pipes in the trench in case I need some heat at some point.


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## Inspector

Question. Are the 1/2” plastic pipes wrapped in insulation? I’m assuming you are running hot water through them and wouldn’t be buried bare. 

Pete


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## sirocosm

I would wrap them with insulation, yes. The trouble is finding something that will last underground that doesn't cost way more than the pipes themselves.


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## Spectric

Just lay a single 4 inch soil pipe between two inspection chambers and then you can run what you like when you like as long as you leave a draw string in. On what basis have you calculated 6mm Swa cable and how many cores ? It is not as simple as just pick a size and hope for the best .


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## sirocosm

Although a conduit would be very nice, I am not sure it is practical in my case. It is a bit far (30m) and there are several corners. Having said that it might be an idea to put a control cable in as well, although nowadays most control can be done wireless. For the heating, if I ever used it, I would probably use mechanical control anyway.

I don't think I would need more than a 32 amp breaker to supply it, so I was thinking 6mm, 3 core since the shop is not heated. Currently I don't own anything that doesn't have a standard 13A UK plug. Highest load would be saw+vac+lights.



Spectric said:


> It is not as simple as just pick a size and hope for the best


Not sure what you mean by that, I would assume most people put a little thought into things before they start digging and burying stuff.


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## Fitzroy

sirocosm said:


> Although a conduit would be very nice, I am not sure it is practical in my case. It is a bit far (30m) and there are several corners. Having said that it might be an idea to put a control cable in as well, although nowadays most control can be done wireless. For the heating, if I ever used it, I would probably use mechanical control anyway.
> 
> I don't think I would need more than a 32 amp breaker to supply it, so I was thinking 6mm, 3 core since the shop is not heated. Currently I don't own anything that doesn't have a standard 13A UK plug. Highest load would be saw+vac+lights.
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean by that, I would assume most people put a little thought into things before they start digging and burying stuff.


My understanding is that you should be calculating the cable size based on distance and expected load. There is a calculator here, at 35m and a single circuit including lights, it shows a power limit of 5.5kw. If it's a non lighting circuit it shows a limit of 9.5kw. My understanding of this is that if you go over 5.5kw you may notice dimming of your lights, especially when turning on a machine.


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## sirocosm

I wondered about the difference for the allowed voltage drop for lighting vs non-lighting circuits, with LED lighting does it matter? In any case a 10mm 3 core looks like the way to go, it is not so much more expensive.


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## Spectric

sirocosm said:


> I don't think I would need more than a 32 amp breaker to supply it, so I was thinking 6mm, 3 core since the shop is not heated. Currently I don't own anything that doesn't have a standard 13A UK plug. Highest load would be saw+vac+lights.


What happens when you visit a woodworking show and the next thing you know you have some larger machinery, always try and future proof your needs. 

You really need an electrician to do the system calculations because you must take into account your supply to the property and the means of earthing as that has an input to design because it determines prospective fault currents and the size of protective devices. LED lighting is not a big load these days compared to when using tubes or Incandescent bulbs so meeting volt drops in domestic is not an issue but volt drops on final power circuits need to be within limits. As to installation get radial circuits fitted and not historic ring mains, easier as you have no loop back from the final point of supply. In such a nice looking building you might be a lot better off with Pvc conduit and junction boxes as it can give a nice tidy job that is also future proof.


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## sirocosm

For the LED lights, I was not thinking so much about the load, but rather that since LEDs use low voltage DC, they probably don't care so much about voltage drop, unless they have a really crappy power supply. Perhaps they will eventually ditch the 3% rule for lighting circuits in residential properties, as eventually only LED lights will be allowed as fixed lighting for climate reasons. In a lot of countries the incandescent (Edison) bulb has been banned. The others, fluorescent, halogen, etc. will be next I'm sure.

I am definitely with you on the radials vs rings, in Canada you cannot install any cable rated less than its protection device in residential wiring. I have wondered why they don't use a pair of 20A breakers (maybe tied?) in the panel instead of a single 32A for a ring final, as it would solve the broken ring safety issue, give a little more capacity on the same wire (breakers are cheap), and preserve all the other benefits of rings, but maybe I am missing something?

I am undecided if I will do the required research and install the panel myself, or hire it out. There are pros and cons for both.


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## HamsterJam

sirocosm said:


> I wondered about the difference for the allowed voltage drop for lighting vs non-lighting circuits, with LED lighting does it matter? In any case a 10mm 3 core looks like the way to go, it is not so much more expensive.


I have modest power needs in my workshop but went 10mm armoured over approx 50m run, partly underground, partly through a loft space.


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## Spectric

HamsterJam said:


> I have modest power needs in my workshop but went 10mm armoured over approx 50m run


That will provide you with supplying a 10Kw load at 50 metres with an 8.7 volt drop (3.8% ) so keep within 10 Kw and within specs.



sirocosm said:


> I have wondered why they don't use a pair of 20A breakers (maybe tied?) in the panel instead of a single 32A for a ring final, as it would solve the broken ring safety issue,



I think it all comes down to why the ring came into being, nothing more than trying to reduce copper usage following WW2 but the trend continued. Don't forget that you also get the issue of bridged rings and people taking the concept of a spur to extremes. 

It is also interesting that in both 2.5 and 4.0 mm CSA T&E that the CPC is only 1.5mm and is why in some situations running singles is much better because you get the same csa CPC as the line and lower circuit impedances giving higher fault currents and meeting disconnection times.


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## flying haggis

sirocosm said:


> Here is what it looks like painted.
> 
> View attachment 145152


That looks really nice and looks like it has been there for years


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## Inspector

sirocosm said:


> I am definitely with you on the radials vs rings, in Canada you cannot install any cable rated less than its protection device in residential wiring. I have wondered why they don't use a pair of 20A breakers (maybe tied?) in the panel instead of a single 32A for a ring final, as it would solve the broken ring safety issue, give a little more capacity on the same wire (breakers are cheap), and preserve all the other benefits of rings, but maybe I am missing something?


I'm not an electrician. We don't have any of the 13,16, 32 breakers/circuits in our systems you do. My 110V circuits in my house and shop are 15A and 20A. The 220V is 15A, 20A, 30A, 40A with the shop/garage having a 100A breaker to the sub from the 200A main. Low demand/use circuits like lights, wall plugs may cover a few rooms, bedrooms for instance. Heavier demand items like the clothes dryer, gas furnace, air conditioner, kitchen stove, etc have their own breaker. Wet locations like the bathroom have GFI breakers for any plug or switch you can reach from near a sink etc. Same goes for outdoor plugs. The odd thing when you look is many are paired breakers which I think is to allow 110V to be taken for some of the circuits (lights and controls) in the appliance while the 220V power does the main work. To the best of my knowledge we don't have rings with the individual protectors at each plug. I have never seen one that I can recall. Modern electrical demands in older homes can be problematic but newer homes are made with ample power. Our place has a 200A service (could have had 400A if needed for a pool etc) and we cook with natural gas so that demand isn't needed. My shop/garage has 100A and even with all lights on, I can run 3 220V machines at the same time and not worry about any dimming or overloads. It may cost more that you would like when setting up a shop but it's not that bad when factoring in the overall costs of foundation, lumber, insulation siding roofing and so on. Don't go minimum unless you have no other choice. You may regret it someday.

Pete


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## sirocosm

Inspector said:


> The odd thing when you look is many are paired breakers which I think is to allow 110V to be taken for some of the circuits (lights and controls) in the appliance while the 220V power does the main work


In Canada the service comes into the house on 3 wires, a neutral and two hot wires. In Sask. the neutral and ground are tied together at the breaker panel, although this may differ in other provinces. Between the hot wires is ~240V and between the either hot and the neutral is ~120V (opposite phase from each other). Those paired breakers you see is because the power bars in the breaker box alternate between the two hot wires, so that every other breaker is on the same line. This means a pair of breaker slots side by side can be used to supply 240V, and any single slot can be used for 120V. The pairs you see over 15 amps will be to supply the stove, subpanel or other large 240V loads. You will also see 15 amp pairs. These will be for split duplex plugs in the kitchen. On these the neutral and both hots are carried in a 3 core cable (+ ground) allowing a single duplex receptacle to have 2 circuits. This way you can plug a kettle into the top plug and a toaster in the bottom plug without blowing the breaker. In Germany my panel was 3 phase and it was similar, every 3rd slot in the breaker box was on the same line. The 3 phase loads took triple wide breakers.


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## HamsterJam

Spectric said:


> That will provide you with supplying a 10Kw load at 50 metres with an 8.7 volt drop (3.8% ) so keep within 10 Kw and within specs.


Yep - that was the design goal. 
Currently I don’t use much more than 3kW….
1kW extraction, up to 2kW tool/machine (but mostly lower), 100w environmental filter, 50w lighting plus a few watts for the radio. 
Leaves me plenty in hand in case I want to upgrade to bigger extraction or machinery or maybe run some heating (the extractor does a good job of heating my small, well insulated workshop and I plug in a 1.5kW oil filled radiator when I am not there.)


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## flying haggis

re electrics install a bigger cable than you think you might need now and put minimum 75x75 trunking (plastic is fine)round the room at ceiling level then use conduit to drop down to any sockets/switches etc. that way if you change your mind and want add/take away a socket its easy

this sort of stuff


75mm x 75mm PVC Trunking - (3mts) - MX 3 | MK_Egatube (CLT3Whi)



would this swa be long enough?








S.W.A Cable 32m | in Norwich, Norfolk | Gumtree


S.W.A Cable Length 32m 6mm Collection from Hellesdon Other lengths are available, please contact me or see other ads




www.gumtree.com


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## Spectric

Also run singles, takes up less room than T&E plus a larger CPC. It will also allow you to easily fit some 16 amp sockets after you buy a P/T !!


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