# Turps - what's the difference?



## Sir Percy (12 Aug 2016)

I mean between the different kinds of real turpentine - I can find pine, larch, venice...?


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## NazNomad (12 Aug 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpentine#Source_trees

http://www.vias.org/church_paintchem/ch ... _038c.html


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## Sir Percy (12 Aug 2016)

Thanks, I know that there are different source trees, I was just wondering if there was any one kind that was preferred for thinning oil paint.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Aug 2016)

White spirit.


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## Sir Percy (12 Aug 2016)

phil.p":3cklnehi said:


> White spirit.


aaagh


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## n0legs (12 Aug 2016)

Chuck in a bit of boot polish and they all taste the same.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Aug 2016)

Sir Percy":2sou8njw said:


> phil.p":2sou8njw said:
> 
> 
> > White spirit.
> ...


Note I didn't say turps sub.


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## ED65 (13 Aug 2016)

Sir Percy":g5sp2aqj said:


> I was just wondering if there was any one kind that was preferred for thinning oil paint.


I have a lot of background in this from painting and on a different sort of forum this would be its own can o' worms, often igniting furious debate. Think a sharpening thread here :shock: 

But generally speaking when you buy turpentine in bulk, anything of the kind woodworkers would be interested in, it doesn't matter how it's named on the label they're all pretty much the same thing. And even more importantly in almost all situations it makes zero difference if you use a run-of-the-mill turpentine or white spirit, except for smell.

What kind of paint are you using by the way?


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## Sir Percy (13 Aug 2016)

ED65":cgo1vcb4 said:


> I have a lot of background in this from painting and on a different sort of forum this would be its own can o' worms, often igniting furious debate. Think a sharpening thread here :shock:


Cheers, more confusion is the last thing I need. Would they be artists forums, just out of interest?


ED65":cgo1vcb4 said:


> But generally speaking when you buy turpentine in bulk, anything of the kind woodworkers would be interested in, it doesn't matter how it's named on the label they're all pretty much the same thing. And even more importantly in almost all situations it makes zero difference if you use a run-of-the-mill turpentine or white spirit, except for smell.
> 
> What kind of paint are you using by the way?


Bought some linseed oil paint to try out. Mfrs advice on thinning is 50% paint, 40% linseed oil, 10% _Balsam_ turps. 
And unsurprisingly, that particular kind I can only find at their only UK stockist. 
I've got some Bartoline pure turps, and thought that would do.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Aug 2016)

Don't waste your time looking for cheap turps - it doesn't seem to exist (please feel free to prove me wrong) I wanted a few litres to make polish and after what seemed an eternity of searching about the cheapest I could find was 250ml bottles at a local stockist. There is some very expensive, however.


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## Jacob (13 Aug 2016)

Sir Percy":15lnq2na said:


> ED65":15lnq2na said:
> 
> 
> > I have a lot of background in this from painting and on a different sort of forum this would be its own can o' worms, often igniting furious debate. Think a sharpening thread here :shock:
> ...


What brand of paint? 
I've been using Allback - it has no turps in it (real or imaginary) and it needs no thinning, though you can add more oil.

PSreal turps here


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Aug 2016)

:lol: Yes, that was as good as I'd found. By the time the P&P is added, exactly the same as 250ml bottles locally.


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## Sir Percy (13 Aug 2016)

Jacob":2jxtga28 said:


> What kind of paint are you using by the way?



Ottoson - sold in the UK through Oricalcum


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## Selwyn (14 Aug 2016)

Ive used kerosine for linseed oil as a thinner before.


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## Jacob (14 Aug 2016)

Sir Percy":8bu2bud5 said:


> Jacob":8bu2bud5 said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of paint are you using by the way?
> ...


Thanks for that.
Theres an info sheet here https://oricalcum.uk/pages/about-linseed-paint
The video exactly describes my own experiences and conclusions since I started using linseed paints, though I've been using Allback brand. I'll have a go with Ottoson.
There's a "real paint" revolution on the way as more people are beginning to realise that there is a very superior alternative to petro-chemical paints.
The worst thing about petro chemical paints is that they destroyed the timber window industry; old or new windows painted with modern paints often will rot in a very short time. Hence the rise of the plastic window or wood preservatives - both boosts for the petro chemical industry!


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## ED65 (14 Aug 2016)

Sir Percy":1dq30fad said:


> Cheers, more confusion is the last thing I need. Would they be artists forums, just out of interest?


Yes, any forum dedicated to oil painting will be populated with the whole spectrum from die-hard traditionalists to Sunday painters who don't care about the technicalities. And the trad guys will try to convince anyone who'll listen that nothing worthwhile has been added to the inventory of oil painting in a century. Sometimes several centuries depending on just how traditional they are :lol: 



Sir Percy":1dq30fad said:


> Bought some linseed oil paint to try out. Mfrs advice on thinning is 50% paint, 40% linseed oil, 10% _Balsam_ turps.


I wouldn't take that as gospel by any means. A balsam v. more normal turps won't make a damn bit of difference in that small a quantity for this application. I might be tempted to worry about the exact kind of turpentine I was using painting on canvas and if it made up a greater part of the total liquid volume, but here the spirits component is a diluent, nothing more. You're thinning the paint slightly and it matters very little what you use to do it.

It's the linseed oil that I would actually pay the most attention to, since the colour of it can be so dark. So with light colours, blues in particular, you can see some undesirable colour shifts. 



Sir Percy":1dq30fad said:


> I've got some Bartoline pure turps, and thought that would do.


It will indeed. So will white spirit.

BTW, Jacob won't want to hear this but in terms of durability good modern paints far outstrip plain oil paints. Plain oil paint meaning pigment, binder, maybe a bit of driers and literally not a single other ingredient; if there are added resins they're cheating. The operative part of that is _good _modern paints. Run-of-the-mill stuff can be decent enough, but you do tend to get what you pay for and high-end paints are streets ahead of what you'll find in the local DIY centre.


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## Jacob (14 Aug 2016)

ED65":zmzej3l6 said:


> .....
> 
> BTW, Jacob won't want to hear this but in terms of durability good modern paints far outstrip plain oil paints. Plain oil paint meaning pigment, binder, maybe a bit of driers and literally not a single other ingredient; if there are added resins they're cheating. The operative part of that is _good _modern paints. Run-of-the-mill stuff can be decent enough, but you do tend to get what you pay for and high-end paints are streets ahead of what you'll find in the local DIY centre.


This "good" modern paint must be a very big secret - I've never found it!
I can assure you that after a lifetime of fiddling about with old and new joinery - modern paint is cr*p and has failed time and time again on a number of projects. Not my fault - I've left stuff to be painted by the pros and that fails too. I usually primed with top quality Ali primer and left it to a painter to finish.
On the other hand I've seen neglected old joinery still surviving when almost paint free because the original was linseed and vestiges remain sufficient to protect it. The application of modern paint then shortens it's life dramatically as it is in effect a water trap. The video in that link above is spot on.
It's been a mystery to me that old joinery lasts so long (without preservative even) but modern doesn't. The answer is in the paint. I've now been using only linseed paints for 8 years or so (Allback, but I'll have a go with other stuff next) and I can see the results as the years pass. 
In a nutshell - it sticks like sh*t to a blanket and never comes off, and it doesn't seem to act as a water trap so must "breathe" - though this is a highly devalued term due to the claims made by modern paint makers.

The old lady is outside as we speak - painting an old iron gate with Allback black. It was encrusted with modern paint flaking off all over. Haven't painted metal before so this is another test. On wood Allback paint simply does not lift or flake, hope it does the same on metal.



> It's the linseed oil that I would actually pay the most attention to, since the colour of it can be so dark. So with light colours, blues in particular, you can see some undesirable colour shifts.


Complete opposite of my experience. Several doors painted blue which tend to fade paler very slightly over the years. Application of oil alone brings back the colour.
But in any case you see undesirable colour shifts in most modern paints - the brighter the colour the faster it fades.

Another virtue is that as it doesn't lift or flake you don't need to strip when repainting. The old surface will be good and just need a wash down and/or a light sanding. Which answers another query - I've stripped old paint back during repair jobs and wondered why there was no sign of the blow lamp underneath - the answer being that old style paint doesn't need stripping off. Old joinery stripped and repainted (modern paint) is only going to last a few years before it starts deteriorating.

PS I wouldn't know anything about paint if it wasn't for the fact that I've had hands on experience for up to 50 years with the same bits of joinery (family home) and long periods with later stuff. The "good" modern paint has stayed hidden in all that time, though I've researched it and experimented with all sorts.


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## Jacob (14 Aug 2016)

ED65":3jvk22ob said:


> ......high-end paints are streets ahead of what you'll find in the local DIY centre.


What are these paints - do they have brand names or is it all a big trade secret?


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## Jacob (15 Aug 2016)

Bit of paint research. 
This is interesting http://www.nap.edu/read/11413/chapter/11#140
Artists aren't too bothered about weathering as virtually everything they do is kept indoors, in very controlled environments if it's worth owt. 
In fact modern decorators paints are good indoors. It's just sunlight and the weather which defeats them outside!
Whist they are in good condition with and unbroken surface and no gaps for water ingress they perform well, but the first sign of weakness and they start failing irreversibly - become detached and/or allow water ingress.
Allback (and other modern linseed oil paints?) also fail, but from the surface, gradually, not irreversibly. Stays firmly attached to the very end!
That's the big difference.

Still waiting to hear about these magic modern petro-chemical paints which are so superior to Dulux, Leyland, etc.
Do they exist?



> And the trad guys will try to convince anyone who'll listen that nothing worthwhile has been added to the inventory of oil painting in a century


What has been added is low price per tin, a huge range of colours, quick drying and shiny perfect surfaces. 
These are at a cost, they are not actually low cost in use - 
they are more difficult to apply (at least if you want the perfect surface), 
they have less covering power (i.e. cost more),
the quick drying is mitigated by the need for preparation (on old surfaces) and 3 coats minimum primer UC and gloss, thinners, brush and hand cleaners are required, 
they are high in VOCs, 
they are not organic and have high carbon footprint,
short shelf life, especially once opened,
but to top it all, they are not durable.


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## ED65 (15 Aug 2016)

Like I said, Jacob won't want to hear this....



Jacob":1f2bl0dl said:


> This "good" modern paint must be a very big secret - I've never found it!


You pass some very high-performing paint every time you walk down the road past a row of parked cars Jacob. Have any Record planes 60 years old or older? There's another example for you. 

There's a darned good reason neither are painted with oil paint. But do feel free to paint either thing with oil paint and report back on your durability test in a few years.



Jacob":1f2bl0dl said:


> It's been a mystery to me that old joinery lasts so long (without preservative even) but modern doesn't. The answer is in the paint.


It's not that simple. This is one of those thing where it looks like you're comparing like for like but aren't. We're all too painfully aware wood isn't what it used to be so we shouldn't expect that old-growth wood as used on a 90-year-old windowframe is the same as that used on one made yesterday even when the same species is used. 

Now the paint was definitely a part of it too. When well made oil paint has extremely good exterior weathering performance, but the best of it uses ingredients that aren't permissible today: lead pigments, lead white in particular. Linseed oil and lead white have an amazing affinity for each other. You take vintage painted surfaces, one white and the other black and sure as eggs is eggs the white will be in better nick. 



Jacob":1f2bl0dl said:


> ED65":1f2bl0dl said:
> 
> 
> > It's the linseed oil that I would actually pay the most attention to, since the colour of it can be so dark. So with light colours, blues in particular, you can see some undesirable colour shifts.
> ...


You're equating rubbing a nearly invisible layer into the surface of dry paint with mixing in nearly an equal volume of additional oil into a pale colour?! 



Jacob":1f2bl0dl said:


> Old joinery stripped and repainted (modern paint) is only going to last a few years before it starts deteriorating.


Your definition of "a few years" and mine are obviously very different. Even bog standard indoor gloss should give a service life in excess of two decades with zero upkeep. I'm living in a house at the moment with woodwork that is 30+ years old, clearly the original paint, and it looks to me to be in perfect condition: no worn-through edges, no peeling, no flaking. A few cracks but that's the underlying wood (cheap softwood naturally) and nothing to do with the paint.


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## Flynnwood (15 Aug 2016)

The issue with oil based white gloss post 2010 VOC regs is with a lack of UV light (so indoors), it will discolour.

The newer hybrid water based paints are fine ... with low VOC's, two coats in one day etc.


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## Jacob (15 Aug 2016)

ED65":31vr386a said:


> ...You pass some very high-performing paint every time you walk down the road past a row of parked cars Jacob. Have any Record planes 60 years old or older? There's another example for you.


The cars have a design life of about 10 years and their finishing technology would be impossible with wooden joinery. 
Record planes don't get left out in the rain ever, let alone for the whole of their existence. 
All the metal planes I've ever had have lost much of their paint - clearly not much to write home about in terms of advanced paint technology. Basically any old paint will do for a plane - it's only got to see it off the shop shelves - after that who gives an buzz?


> .....
> ..... We're all too painfully aware wood isn't what it used to be so we shouldn't expect that old-growth wood as used on a 90-year-old windowframe is the same as that used on one made yesterday even when the same species is used.


Wrong. Good quality timber is available today - for those who want it. The only thing not available is large dimension old growth


> Now the paint was definitely a part of it too. When well made oil paint has extremely good exterior weathering performance, but the best of it uses ingredients that aren't permissible today: lead pigments, lead white in particular.


Another popular but incorrect assumption - lead is an effective ingredient but is not essential to longevity - it's the oil. Though my own trials are only 10 years on but doing better than any modern paint I've ever used.


ED65":31vr386a said:


> It's the linseed oil that I would actually pay the most attention to, since the colour of it can be so dark. So with light colours, blues in particular, you can see some undesirable colour shifts.


Complete opposite of my experience.


> You're equating rubbing a nearly invisible layer into the surface of dry paint with mixing in nearly an equal volume of additional oil into a pale colour?!


Er -not sure what you are saying here. What I'm saying is that blue Allback paint does not darken, in fact exactly the opposite


> ......I'm living in a house at the moment with woodwork that is 30+ years old, clearly the original paint, and it looks to me to be in perfect condition: no worn-through edges, no peeling, no flaking. A few cracks but that's the underlying wood (cheap softwood naturally) and nothing to do with the paint.


No prob inside - its the stuff outside which suffers. There is no modern paint which would last 30 years outside.

NB you still haven't said what these modern miracle paints are. Do they have brand names? Where can you buy them? Do they really last for 30+ years on external joinery?
Are they a figment of your imagination?


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## ED65 (16 Aug 2016)

Jacob":9z0wskq5 said:


> ED65":9z0wskq5 said:
> 
> 
> > You're equating rubbing a nearly invisible layer into the surface of dry paint with mixing in nearly an equal volume of additional oil into a pale colour?!
> ...


I'm saying you can't equate rubbing a nearly invisible layer of oil into the surface of dry paint with with mixing in nearly an equal volume of additional oil into an existing pale-coloured oil paint. Is that clear now? :roll: 



Jacob":9z0wskq5 said:


> NB you still haven't said what these modern miracle paints are. Do they have brand names? Where can you buy them? Do they really last for 30+ years on external joinery?
> Are they a figment of your imagination?


My comment wasn't related to oil paint exclusively on exterior woodwork Jacob! I said, "BTW, Jacob won't want to hear this but in terms of durability good modern paints far outstrip plain oil paints." This doesn't specify _on wood _or _exterior use_ or _only one aspect of durability_ does it? The sole focus on the weathering resistance of external joinery is something you brought in with you.

That's it from me unless Sir Percy has any further questions.


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## Jacob (16 Aug 2016)

ED65":f0zyu9xr said:


> Jacob":f0zyu9xr said:
> 
> 
> > ED65":f0zyu9xr said:
> ...


My comments were related to oil paint on exterior woodwork (but not exclusively). 
Any old paint will survive well enough inside and clearly the wood will not rot, even with no paint. And yes, I expect hard enamels will last better than linseed oil paints - which are slightly soft and don't set rock hard.

So there aren't any highly developed high tech magic paints which are more durable than (modern) trad linseed paints, suitable for external joinery?



> .....I'm saying you can't equate rubbing a nearly invisible layer of oil into the surface of dry paint with with mixing in nearly an equal volume of additional oil into an existing pale-coloured oil paint. Is that clear now? :roll:


Nope, not clear at all!


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## MIGNAL (16 Aug 2016)

Why don't they use Tung oil in these outdoor paints? Tung oil is used in pretty much every marine varnish going, an environment that obviously see wind, rain, sun and salt water. Perhaps there is some technical reason.
Not that I have anything against Linseed oil! It certainly smells a lot nicer.


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## Jacob (16 Aug 2016)

MIGNAL":2gbvfh02 said:


> Why don't they use Tung oil in these outdoor paints? Tung oil is used in pretty much every marine varnish going, an environment that obviously see wind, rain, sun and salt water. Perhaps there is some technical reason.
> Not that I have anything against Linseed oil! It certainly smells a lot nicer.


As far as I know marine varnishes (and marine paints) are kept in good nick by being done/re-done very frequently.


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