# Edge joining boards (or pieces thereof)



## bp122 (26 Sep 2019)

Hello all,

A 4-topic newbie here!

I had a a few strips of off cuts that a friend of mine gave me to practise joinery on.
Among the strips, I have a tulipwood piece which is 5 inches wide and 1 inch thick.

I looked at one of the push blocks for table saw on youtube, which was a simple design with two tapered ends on the top and a nice flat face at the bottom.

Anyway, to get the extra height for the handle part of the push stick / block, I thought of cutting a small piece from this tulipwood piece and gluing it edge ways , which I cut and smeared some tool station PVA I had, clamped it upto put pressure on the gluing surfaces and also sandwiched this in between two bits of melamine covered chipboard, to keep them from bowing and used a couple of clamps.

The next day, I came to see how it went, after removing the clamps, I tried to break it (as you would break chocolate)with with little force and it comepletely came apart.
Is this normal? If not, is it the quality of PVA glue I used or the insufficient clamping pressure? would it be tulipwood itself (I had never heard of it until I got it) Or does this kind of joint need some kind of a reinforcement (dowel, biscuit, domino, tenon)?

Please enlighten me.


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## Rich C (26 Sep 2019)

Which edge did you glue to which edge? If you're gluing long grain (i.e. not end grain) faces together then you should get a very strong joint. If one side is end grain you'll need some joinery in there, tenoning it in would be a classic joint, biscuits or dowels for something quicker and more modern.


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## thetyreman (26 Sep 2019)

if the joint came apart easily something is seriously wrong, it's very likely that the wood is too wet, or something went wrong with not enough clamping pressure, also how did you actually joint the edges? I use a no7 hand plane that is razor sharp on both long edges, it shouldn't need anything extra like dowels if done correctly.


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## bp122 (26 Sep 2019)

thetyreman":1igbgi1s said:


> if the joint came apart easily something is seriously wrong, it's very likely that the wood is too wet, or something went wrong with not enough clamping pressure, also how did you actually joint the edges? I use a no7 hand plane that is razor sharp on both long edges, it shouldn't need anything extra like dowels if done correctly.



It has a planed edge from the source, which is very flat and smooth. I can't tell the exact moisture or anything, but it sounds like a dry timber when I knock the two pieces together (like a cricket ball hitting a bat or using a hardwood mallet on a workbench) I'll try and redo it tonight, possibly use a couple of more clamps and see how that goes. 



Rich C":1igbgi1s said:


> Which edge did you glue to which edge? If you're gluing long grain (i.e. not end grain) faces together then you should get a very strong joint. If one side is end grain you'll need some joinery in there, tenoning it in would be a classic joint, biscuits or dowels for something quicker and more modern.



It is long grain to long grain. As I said in my original post, I'm not sure if it is the wood (I read somewhere that not all woods take glue the same way) or the glue or just my wrong technique (most likely)


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## thetyreman (26 Sep 2019)

bp122":2ik9er6b said:


> thetyreman":2ik9er6b said:
> 
> 
> > if the joint came apart easily something is seriously wrong, it's very likely that the wood is too wet, or something went wrong with not enough clamping pressure, also how did you actually joint the edges? I use a no7 hand plane that is razor sharp on both long edges, it shouldn't need anything extra like dowels if done correctly.
> ...



ok but what kind of source? machined surface or hand planed? how are you measuring that's very flat? have you got a straight edge? also what kind of clamps are you using?


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## Steve Maskery (26 Sep 2019)

As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.


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## MikeG. (26 Sep 2019)

This isn't going to be about clamping pressure*. If the glue joint was long-grain to long-grain then just rubbing the two glue-smeared pieces together and setting them aside for the night should produce a very strong bond which you'd struggle to break by hand. I suspect, then, that you haven't got properly prepared edges.

Your edges need to be planed flat, and not be a sawn finish. They also need to be square with each other. It could be that in clamping boards across them to keep everything flat that you actually forced the joint apart. This could be the case if one or both of the edges wasn't at 90 degrees to the faces.

The other thing which could account for your failure is glue that has de-natured by being stored subject to freezing. I've got some PVA which has developed a thick mould in its tin, but it still works. It must be 10 years old, so age isn't going to be an issue.

I suggest you examine your edges very carefully, and get them flat and smooth. Then try again without too much clamping (one clamp is enough). Also, send us some piccies.

*Including the old chestnut (=myth) of over-tightening leading to squeezing too much glue out of the join.


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## transatlantic (26 Sep 2019)

Assuming there were no huge gaps between the joints (PVA is not a gap filling glue), it might be the glue itself.

Try it again on some scrap pine or something


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## MikeG. (26 Sep 2019)

Steve Maskery":80h5qh9j said:


> As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.



I've had one pushstick for probably 20 years or more, cut from a single piece of 2x1 PAR pine. Properly thought through with grain direction etc there is no reason why solid wood can't make a perfectly good pushstick. Having said that, I take your point, and ply or MDF is indeed preferable.


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## Steve Maskery (26 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":1d13lgso said:


> Steve Maskery":1d13lgso said:
> 
> 
> > As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.
> ...



Yes Mike, provided that nothing ever goes wrong, you can use any material. The problems arise when something does go wrong, despite our best care.

Wood that has a grain can splinter and those splinters can cause puncture wounds in a way that MDF (or plywood) cannot.

Largely irrelevant, but...
I once had the misfortune to be married to a doctor, who recalled as a Junior House Office in a hospital, she was called to see a patient who could not make it to the examination room, and wanted to be seen in a room down the corridor, where he was lying on a trolley. So she stormed off to give this patient a piece of her mind - what on earth was he doing pestering the NHS with a splinter? 

It turned out that this "splinter" was part of a gate post that had entered at the wrist and started to exit at the elbow...


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## bp122 (26 Sep 2019)

thetyreman":3h7bp3jt said:


> bp122":3h7bp3jt said:
> 
> 
> > thetyreman":3h7bp3jt said:
> ...



The material came from a timbers merchant, and it is planed from a machine. I held my straight edge against it and it was flat and it is smooth to touch. I used one F clamp in the middle to apply pressure onto the gluing surfaces (perpendicular to the surface), two more clamps to do the melamine sandwich to keep them from bowing. The gluing edge measures 110mm in length. 

On another note, there seems to be an issue with my phone, the posts I make on my phone doesn't appear here. I wrote the same response two hours ago and now there is no sign of it  
This is the third instance of such a thing.


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## Trainee neophyte (26 Sep 2019)

Numpty question from a numpty: how much glue are you putting on the joint? I have been working on putting enough glue on to not be able to see the grain through the goop. A fair amount, in other words. Then clamp it up, and curse and swear trying to clean up the mess with a damp cloth. Getting the balance between having enough glue to achieve "squeeze-out" when clamping, and having far too much glue, is proving to be a skill that I am struggling to master, but too much seems better than not enough.


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## bp122 (26 Sep 2019)

transatlantic":1l27fol6 said:


> Assuming there were no huge gaps between the joints (PVA is not a gap filling glue), it might be the glue itself.
> 
> Try it again on some scrap pine or something



I shall do that and see what happens. Thanks 



MikeG.":1l27fol6 said:


> This isn't going to be about clamping pressure*. If the glue joint was long-grain to long-grain then just rubbing the two glue-smeared pieces together and setting them aside for the night should produce a very strong bond which you'd struggle to break by hand. I suspect, then, that you haven't got properly prepared edges.
> 
> Your edges need to be planed flat, and not be a sawn finish. They also need to be square with each other. It could be that in clamping boards across them to keep everything flat that you actually forced the joint apart. This could be the case if one or both of the edges wasn't at 90 degrees to the faces.
> 
> ...



Please see the attached pictures. The pictures show the glue residue AFTER my failed attempt. 
I have tried to show how flat and smooth the edges are.
I'll try and fit my face vise (a rusty old one I restored) to my workbench soon, then I can properly hold it for planing etc.


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## bp122 (26 Sep 2019)

Trainee neophyte":8ycuagwz said:


> Numpty question from a numpty: how much glue are you putting on the joint? I have been working on putting enough glue on to not be able to see the grain through the goop. A fair amount, in other words. Then clamp it up, and curse and swear trying to clean up the mess with a damp cloth. Getting the balance between having enough glue to achieve "squeeze-out" when clamping, and having far too much glue, is proving to be a skill that I am struggling to master, but too much seems better than not enough.



The squeeze out was not a lot, but I covered both surfaces fully. May be that is it, maybe it just wasn't enough.


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## bp122 (26 Sep 2019)

Steve Maskery":ex7v3yjt said:


> As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.



You are right, of course. However, after making a huge racket about dust and fine dust etc in my other post, I wanted to avoid MDF as much as I could. Would you say Ply is a worthy substitute to MDF in this regard?


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## Steve Maskery (26 Sep 2019)

I have to say, this really does not make sense. :-k


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## Steve Maskery (26 Sep 2019)

bp122":3ldw42n3 said:


> Would you say Ply is a worthy substitute to MDF in this regard?


Probably - it's unlikely to shatter in the same way, but as I've only ever used MDF, I can't speak from experience, only logic.


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## MikeG. (26 Sep 2019)

bp122":2926db8x said:


> ........Please see the attached pictures.......



I'm seeing a really big gap in your first photo. There should be no gap at all. Am I seeing things, or is there some sort of finish on the wood?


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## Nigel Burden (26 Sep 2019)

Like Mike G, I can see a gap along the edge. 

I apply the glue and then rub the two boards together to evenly distribute the glue before clamping up.

Custard has posted an excellent post on edge jointing which does highlight the lengths you need to go to too get a truly flat and square edge. You will find it in this section of the forum.

Nigel.


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## bp122 (26 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":2ik7azoa said:


> bp122":2ik7azoa said:
> 
> 
> > ........Please see the attached pictures.......
> ...


The gap is formed by the dried up glue residue. Before, it was very smooth and flat (as you can see in the unglued portion)
So much that I was very pleased to see two pieces of timber as I've seen only on videos where they perfectly mate up!



Steve Maskery":2ik7azoa said:


> I have to say, this really does not make sense. :-k


Oh, okay, I thought it was just me. 

Has anyone worked with Tulipwood? What was your experience in its joinery?


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## Bm101 (26 Sep 2019)

Trainee neophyte":p8yocyru said:


> Numpty question from a numpty: how much glue are you putting on the joint? I have been working on putting enough glue on to not be able to see the grain through the goop. A fair amount, in other words. Then clamp it up, and curse and swear trying to clean up the mess with a damp cloth. Getting the balance between having enough glue to achieve "squeeze-out" when clamping, and having far too much glue, is proving to be a skill that I am struggling to master, but too much seems better than not enough.


As usual. Not advice. Noob Disclaimer etc etc.
I use a wallpaper seam roller for flat joints. Not perfect. You can buy expensive glue rollers. But it does help a beginner like me get an even application quickly. Under presuure you can throw it out the way and clean it after and you can get them easily and cheaply.
Might help.


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## Steve Maskery (26 Sep 2019)

bp122":1ni1npep said:


> Has anyone worked with Tulipwood? What was your experience in its joinery?



Tulipwood (AKA Canary Whitewood, AKA American Poplar) is a very friendly wood. Available in good-sized clear sections, easy to work, stains and pants very nicely. It's a bit soft to the touch, you can ding it with your fingernail. It often has a green tinge when freshly cut, maybe with black streaks. They both fade VERY quickly (hours) in good sunlight. Indoors it mellows to a lovely honey colour.


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## Ttrees (26 Sep 2019)

bp122":2swxw0d0 said:


> .......Please see the attached pictures.......





bp122":2swxw0d0 said:


> .The gap is formed by the dried up glue residue. Before, it was very smooth and flat (as you can see in the unglued portion)
> So much that I was very pleased to see two pieces of timber as I've seen only on videos where they perfectly mate up!





bp122 said:


> .
> That doesn't rule out, out of square though.
> It looks to me like you could have made a flat panel with a non square mated joint, but not flipped one of the pieces around before gluing it up on a flat surface resulting in the error doubling instead of canceling each other out.
> Tom


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## MikeG. (27 Sep 2019)

bp122":2pwqr4w1 said:


> ......The gap is formed by the dried up glue residue...........



That residue should be flat and extremely thin if there was no gap when it dried. The fact that it isn't is suggestive of what I said earlier, that there was a gap, probably caused by non-square edges.

It is an absolute certainty that the issue isn't the wood. It is either with the glue itself (which I doubt because it seems to have dried hard), or with the mating surfaces. You've had loads of advice on here, and plenty of time to try again. Have you tried a rubbed joint yet?


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## bp122 (27 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":j284jfoc said:


> bp122":j284jfoc said:
> 
> 
> > ......The gap is formed by the dried up glue residue...........
> ...





Ttrees":j284jfoc said:


> bp122":j284jfoc said:
> 
> 
> > .......Please see the attached pictures.......
> ...



I couldn't try it last night. I guess you guys are correct that there may have been a gap which I failed to see. This is good for me because it is forcing me to fix my vise to the table (something that I should have done days ago!) and then I can use my plane to square off the edges and try all of this one more time. Good list of things for the weekend though!


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## MattyT (27 Sep 2019)

I'm intrigued to see if more clamping pressure helps with your next attempt. Keep us informed.


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## lurker (27 Sep 2019)

I think Ply is even worse than timber for pushsticks.

MDF breaks nicely in the event of a kick (I would imagine) and you can happily run the end into the blade for "follow through", which I think adds to safety.


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## lurker (27 Sep 2019)

Strangely I had a rub joint fail on me yesterday, which was a rare thing for me.
The PVA had remained slightly "milky"

I decided the wood might be a bit oily (although it looks dry).

I have just de greased and am going to use castamite as I think the wood might be
slightly gappy too. Because of the face I don't want to re plane.


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Sep 2019)

PVA glue has a surprisingly short shelf-life and can quickly become useless if ever exposed to frost.

What make of PVA did you use, is it 'in date' (most of the good makes have a DoM printed on them), and have you been keeping it in a heated environment?

Like other posters, your photo suggests to me that there was a gap when the glue dried in the joint - which would definitely have weakened it a fair bit - but I'm wondering if the glue residue is strong or weak (it looks a bit flaky/chalky to my eye and makes me wonder what condition the glue was in), how tough is the glue residue (it should be resistant to a fingernail)?

Cheers, W2S


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## Trainee neophyte (27 Sep 2019)

Bm101":3qdfdfys said:


> Trainee neophyte":3qdfdfys said:
> 
> 
> > Numpty question from a numpty: how much glue are you putting on the joint? I have been working on putting enough glue on to not be able to see the grain through the goop. A fair amount, in other words. Then clamp it up, and curse and swear trying to clean up the mess with a damp cloth. Getting the balance between having enough glue to achieve "squeeze-out" when clamping, and having far too much glue, is proving to be a skill that I am struggling to master, but too much seems better than not enough.
> ...


All new knowledge is good knowledge, as I know nothing! Still working towards considering myself amateur, but a long way to go yet. Will try the roller, and see. Currently I grab some scrap off the floor and use that - hardly scientific. I tried using my finger, but no - people on YouTube can be weird.


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## bp122 (28 Sep 2019)

Woody2Shoes":3tr89hy5 said:


> PVA glue has a surprisingly short shelf-life and can quickly become useless if ever exposed to frost.
> 
> What make of PVA did you use, is it 'in date' (most of the good makes have a DoM printed on them), and have you been keeping it in a heated environment?
> 
> ...



I used a cheap weatherproof PVA from Toolstation, which I had bought sometime last year when I didn't know about anything in woodworking. The glue residue was a bit flaky when I tried to clean up with a plane. 



MattyT":3tr89hy5 said:


> I'm intrigued to see if more clamping pressure helps with your next attempt. Keep us informed.



Here is the update:

I set about "squaring and truing" the two edges to eliminate bad practice on my part.
And I used the same glue again.

This time, it took me a good 40 mins PER EDGE, trying to square it with a plane (stanley No.4) - It didn't help!!
I was so focused on getting the edge perpendicular to either sides and flat that I forgot I was planing the pieces into a trapezium from the lovely rectangle it was    - it just screams NOOB here.

After that I decided to get the big gun out and decided to plane it using the electric planer I had lying around in my in-law's garage, No joy there either - still kept planing it like a router with a roundover bit!

Then used the other side of it as a reference and cut out a straight edge on my table saw (Remember my other post where I had issues with my table saw setup - I found out what it was. The supplied blade insert is cast aluminium and it is distorted like melted plastic. My TS blade is actually perpendicular to the cast table, but the insert, despite the adjustment screws in it, kicks the work piece up to give me a tapered cut of about 85 degrees. )

Anyway, after a bit of "cut the same edge from top and bottom face" method, I got an edge which was square and didn't let any light through.
Used the same PVA, rubbed the two pieces in with the glue, this time clamped with one of my large cast iron clamps (as my other clamps weren't wide enough), set it aside for 4 - 5 hours. No gap on it, I planed the joined area to see no clear line of joint. The two pieces have bowed ever so slightly, but the joint is ridiculously strong - proving that it was indeed what you guys called it - bad prep!

Although this must be a good laugh for everyone here, including myself, I was pleased that I finally got a joint as I've seen on tons of YT videos - even if it took me better part of 3 hours to do it     

P.S - In photography, people often talk about photographers who have all the expensive gear imaginable but still can't take a good photo. **Ahem Ahem**, yours truly!


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## woodbloke66 (28 Sep 2019)

Have you read Custard's rather excellent sticky on this subject? It all makes sense once you can see how to do it properly  - Rob


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## lurker (28 Sep 2019)

If by cheap PVA from Toolstation you mean Everbond 502.
This is what I use and find it excellent.

I usually buy a new 1 litre bottle in April (after the frosts) dispense about a quarter into another container and then keep the rest in the house.
The (meagre) remains from the previous year is binned.
A litre tends to last me a year and I am wary of frost (in the shed) but have never had problems.

You will note (comment earlier in your post) I had a failed rub joint last week and the first thing I did was tested the glue on some scrap and am sure it was not the glue at fault.


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## woodbloke66 (28 Sep 2019)

lurker":whejqn5z said:


> If by cheap PVA from Toolstation you mean Everbond 502.
> This is what I use and find it excellent.


Try the Everbuild D4 next time...fandabby stuff - Rob


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