# Competition



## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Well as many have you have probably seen, there is a competition under way in the General Woodworking section.

The prizes are all to do with general woodworking. Nothing to interest the turner who just turns.

I wondered if any turners intend to enter turned items to that competition?

..and if not, what about organising our own mini compo?


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

Mentioned it a month or two back Tom ....
the idea didn't seem to 'set the heather on fire' at the time, and it fell a bit flat....

Which is a shame cause I think it'd be a great idea. ...
for fun and 'braggin rights' kind of thing..

Hopefully this may kick it back into life... ( the idea I mean.. )

Be brilliant if one of the Pro's would be willing to judge it too...

Step forward Messer's Hancock, Sanger, Lucas , Findley etc :wink: 
( sorry lads... 8) :lol: :lol: )

But I must say, I love the idea of really being 'pushed' to try real hard... and the resultant criticisms etc can be nothing but helpful too.

Here's hoping it's pulse is restarted. :lol: 8)


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

yes I remember the thread. I feel that with a little direction we can get a competition up and running. Personally I don't think any turners are going to enter the other compo, which is a shame but obvious to see why. If we held a much smaller scale compo here it would get us involved. Why should they have all the fun?


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

Exactly ! 

I personally wouldn't dream of the 'other one' ... but amongst ourselves, I'd feel comfortable enough to enter my rubbish in our 'own little world' here, as I believe something constructive would come of it by way of feedback from the experienced guys, and seeing other turnings is always good... from an inspiration point of view etc. 

Lets see how the "re-vitalised" idea goes down here, ...
It could be a bit of fun for all. 


Its so _open_ ... It could be by 'experience' categories, or
by Piece-Type ( Bowl / Pen / Platter / Hollow Form / Goblet etc... ) or whatever...
and Could be a really worthwhile and fun thing to do.
Lets hope others agree.

:lol: :lol: :lol: 8) 8) 8)


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## jasonB (21 Apr 2009)

Personally I don't see why a well turned vestle or sculptural turning in a nicely marked piece of wood or even a segmental turning cannot compete against a poorly executed pine box for example.

Even if you produce a thick walled unattractive bland beech bowl at least you would have supported the Main comp.

Jason


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Not sure if I totally agree. But the main reason I think turners are not going to enter the other compo is the prizes and the judges. Nothing remotely associated with turning.

I'm happy to be proved wrong.


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## John. B (21 Apr 2009)

Well, I'm up for it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: 

John. B


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## Paul.J (21 Apr 2009)

Yes me too,as i was before.
Just can't beleive we have been over looked again :roll: 
I liked Jenx's idea before,and there are enough pros on here to judge if they don't mind.Just gotta get some prizes sorted.


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

I'm already putting the wheels in motion, but I'd really like to get an idea of who'd be interested in principle.

Please feel free to PM me if you don't want to openly show interest.

Prizes are unlikely to be as high value as the other compo but that's not really what it's about.

I'm also interested in hearing how you think the rules should go.

Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced? or maybe just Beginner and Experienced is better ?


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

Fully understand and appreciate Jason's thought process there... 
and take his point.

Personally however, I'd not enter the main competition for a few reasons.. principally : 
Our pieces as turners tend to be 'weekend' projects done from start to finish in one or two days.. as opposed to weeks / ( maybe even months ) worth of work, and as such, and this is just a 'perception'... and I mean no ill by it, ... I'd feel very fraudulent and essentially effectively ridiculous, at the thought of putting something of mine into a competition like that, and just 'wouldn't'.

I Appreciate of course, that a fine turned piece has as much validity as something that fills 2/3rds of a room .. but as a relative beginner, the door would be closed .. with the handle pulled by me, I hasten to add ! :wink: 

That'd be the main reason.

I have no idea who's judging the main competiton.. and again I can only say from a personal perspective, that wouldn't put me off ...
its ( for me anyway ), more about the 'scale and complexity'.. if that makes sense... I'd feel like I was entering a lego house into a precision model-engineering competition, if that works as an analogy.  

I suspect I'd not be alone.. keeping a little 'side competition' for turnings within the turners works for me.. and I wouldn't consider it to be devisive or 'contrary to the spirit of' the main woodworking competition.

Just personal thoughts of course, if thats ok to express :wink: :lol: 8)


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## Paul.J (21 Apr 2009)

I would have the three catagories.Beginner,inter,advanced,as there does seem to be quite a few of each.


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

I like the idea of Beginner / Intermediate / Advanced too...

Where to draw the lines of demarkation would be interesting... 
one may have been turning 5 years, but only done 10 pieces of work in that time...

Perhaps it can be 'quantified' into these groupings by the number of pieces an individual has made.
Use myself for an example ...been doing it for 17 months ( Nov 2007 - now ), and have done maybe 40 different pieces.
I'd think of myself as a beginner .. but then if someone started two weeks ago, and has made ( and burst ) his first bowl and is half way through his second one.. then I'm not so much of a beginner in that context ! .

Perhaps we could ask one of the experienced hands, ( sorry to use individuals by name.. but to illustrate what I mean, I kind of need to )...
Lets say a Duncan or a Corny or a Tam for example, was asked to set the parameters, then we just have to be good enough to abide by that kind of educated, experienced input..

Perhaps the 'Pens only' lads need some special consideration too.. I don't know... but worthy of thinking about, I'd imagine. 8) 

Whatever way we decide to go, I'm 'in'.. cause I like the idea... and did so from first time around.
I think it'd be great. 8) 8) :lol: 

Oh and as an aside.. I'd personally be happy to bung up to 20 quid into the prize fund.. we can worry about that in due course, no doubt.
Ways to skin cats n'all :wink: :lol: 8)


EDIT : As always.. though of some more stuff ....
Perhaps ( and this, I appreciate may be a big-ish 'ask') .. perhaps some of the top dogs would be willing to 'turn' a prize ? .. is that a dumb idea ?
time willing etc... ? shoot it down if its a non-starting idea guys.. its all about input and out of that we'll get something "workable"

Always worth a thought to the idea of 'sponsored' prizing too.. it wouldnt' hurt to ask the Stiles & Bates / Turners Retreat / Toolpost / Sorby / Chestnut ( sorry Terry :wink: ) etc folk if they could contribute in some small way... If they can't, fair enough and no problem.. it can't hurt to ask !


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## Anonymous (21 Apr 2009)

I'd be up for giving it a try. As long as the timescale is long enough for me to put an entry forward (I don't get the spare time that many of you get). Would you build in the design process? It's one thing to turn something, it's another to turn what you meant to. I think a good how-to on the forum should add points. Even better how about a video?

Dave


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## BMac (21 Apr 2009)

I could be tempted to take part health permitting (I've been turning for a couple of years but, in real terms, it's a couple of months due to health constraints). I've been discouraged from entering competitions before because categories were abused and highly skilled turners were winning prizes in the 'Beginner' categories and, despite being well-known, nothing was done about it.

Anyway, that's just personal experience and hopefully not widely practised.

Brendan


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

ok just ideas atm..

The skill level thing is hard to define. Ultimately the turner chooses what category they want to enter into. But the competition would be adjudicated and as such, hopefully, anyone who is obviously in the wrong group would be identified.

Hopefully, by having less high value prizes, we won't have any of the business that BMac speaks of. It really is about taking part.

As for timescales. I think we should aim for the same date as the other compo, which is late October. This gives you the whole of summer to complete your project but stops short of the busy xmas period.

I like the other's compo's idea of entering a design brief initially and being judged on how close you came to your brief. As well as the finished piece. I know this is daunting for a beginner (myself included). But a competition's sole purpose is to push you and build on confidence.


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

Like the 'ethos' behind that.

All works for me, so far ! :wink: 8) 

Fun & Learning.
What could be better :wink: :lol: 8)


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Jenx, I'm putting feelers out RE: prizes. I like your idea about having a turned trophy. This could be either passed around every year or a new one given per year.


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Please keep showing interest. This will help me attract prizes.

Also if any of the membership would like to donate prizes that would be most kind.


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## BMac (21 Apr 2009)

Wizer,

If October-time suits the rest I am definitely in. That will allow for any hold-ups I might encounter.

Brendan


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## Bodrighy (21 Apr 2009)

Just one thing to think of. It is easy enough to judge a piece for design for a phot but not so easy to judge finish etc. I think we might need a few pointers regarding showing our work so that it can be judged fairly. also how do we assess whether we are novice intermediate or expert. I know that in some areas I amdefinitley a novice especially comparesd to some of the guys on here but there are a lot of brand new tyrners lately (some who I reckon are ringers :lol: judging by the standard of the work)

I am all for it and would love to have a go as long as it is something that is well organised 

Pete


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Yes good points. Some tips on photography will be offered and an offer of re-photographing one's work if the adjudicator deems the quality of the photo to be poor and letting the work down.


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## maltrout512 (21 Apr 2009)

Sounds like it's coming together. I will be taking part in the other com and I would like to enter this one as well. I would say that I would put myself in the advanced section as I do make part of my living in turning. Will wait for further updates with interest.


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## Soulfly (21 Apr 2009)

Its a good idea something like a goblet because there are endless variations you can do and there is a lot of artistic license etc. I propose everyone enters whether full time pro or part time newbie and will be based on an X factor style voting system.


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## stevebuk (21 Apr 2009)

full of confidence now.. stand clear, i'm in.. :lol:


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Soulfly I *really really* want you to enter.


Thanks for your interest guys. I don't see any problems entering both compos if you like.

I have been trying to think of a way to get the pen turners involved. Perhaps a separate section for pens?


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## BMac (21 Apr 2009)

Would three sections be out of the question. I like Soulfly's goblet suggestion and there could be a pen section and then an 'Open' section allowing for any other creations.

I don't know how X Factor is scored but I saw a calender competition on another turning forum where the entries were posted and people could vote for the one they liked best whilst honouring a request not to vote for themselves.


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

The thing is that it gets complicated if we have a beginner, intermediate and advanced section for each category. So then do we just have a free for all compo with no skill level restrictions? I think that might scare people off.

I think maybe having an open competition where you can turn anything at all and enter it into your chosen skill level works best but kind of alienates the pen turners. I think it'd be best to have a pen section run along side (assuming the pen turners would like to enter?) obviously anyone can enter the pen compo.

:? Hows that sound?


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

Definately think the PEN CHAPS need something specifically for the pens, if thats all that they turn. 

Otherwise, it can be as simple or as complex as you like !

Spindle Piece / Faceplate Piece even ?

Anything works for me !
Just think its important for the 'pens only' guys to be very much incorporated into the plans. :wink: :lol: 


Hopefully Soulfly _and_ EVERYONE ELSE would enter....
Its for fun, for a wee bit of chest-puffing in jest, and for learning from the input and observations of everyone. We're in the very fortunate position that one and all can feel totally comfortable in entering, and know that they can expect nothing but constructive help, should they not be fortunate enough to top the charts.
That in itself makes it worth trying.

_Here's a wee idea to throw into the pot... involves a wee tiny bit of outlay on each persons part.. but how about the 'adjudicator' gets to nominate his or her favourite charity-shop and each of us sends our competition-piece to the shop's address for selling onwards, to raise funds for that given charity ? Is that outwith the bounds of possibility ? .... and the 'feel-good' factor is hard to beat.
That wouldn't be over-complicating the thing, would it ?_ :wink:

( after the comp' of course ! :lol: )


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Nice sentiment Jenx but some people may want to enter something they were going to turn already and had a specific purpose for it.


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

Fair point Tom Fair point indeeed ! :lol:


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## miles_hot (21 Apr 2009)

I'd be in.

I think three categories would be good - beginner, intermediate/expert and Pro unless there were so few Pros that the distinction would be between intermediate and expert.

At least I have no problems categorising myself as I need training on how to use the wretched bowl gouge.

I assume we would be able to enter this comp as well as the one on the general forum? I would suggest that the idea that they are running with of a WIP section would be good - no so much to keep people involved (as our work would be rather shorter duration project) but to help with the education bit.

Miles


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

absolutely Miles. I don't want anyone to think that we're trying to poach entrants from their compo. In fact, I intend to enter that one myself.

I just felt that it alienated a lot of this forums members because of the prizes and judges involved.


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## TEP (21 Apr 2009)

Don't want to be the harbinger of doom, but when *Blister* offered a turning idea for the members of this part of the forum a little while back, it fell at the first hurdle.

Don't get me wrong, the idea is OK, and the initial enthusiasm is there, but for how long?


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## wizer (21 Apr 2009)

Does that mean you are not interested in entering Tam?

Unless we get a lot more interest I won't be following up on my leads for prize donations. Which would be a great shame because I don't see any reason why an active turner wouldn't want to enter a competition. What's the point in the hobby\craft if you can't get some sort of acclaim. Not to mention the social aspects.

I think Blister's pass-around may have been slightly different in that there was no incentive to complete the piece. Other than that I'm really not sure what happened.


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## Jenx (21 Apr 2009)

I reckon Blister's piece will work... but its a 'specific piece' and will either work for you or it wont.

Its doing the rounds... the Moose has it but with his move and wedding its 'stalled' a wee bit, but that should be temporary. :wink:  

As this is more 'open to interpretation', it makes involvement a little easier.. _i think ? _ :wink: :lol: 

8) :lol: 8)


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## Bodrighy (22 Apr 2009)

If all those who will defiinitely enter it put their name forward now we will know if it is worth it. I'll start a new thread for people to just submit their name. If we get enough it's a goer. OK

Pete


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## TEP (22 Apr 2009)

wizer":ig41vu1i said:


> Does that mean you are not interested in entering Tam?



Doesn't mean that at all *Tom*. Just having my say on how a lot of these enterprises tend to go.


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## duncanh (22 Apr 2009)

I'm not really sure how to go about organising categories. 

Number of years/months turning doesn't cover it as you may only turn one item per month.

Number of items turned may not cover it, as you may have turned hundreds of key rings but never tackled anything larger than a goblet.

A professional class could be used, but just because someone makes decent (relative to the rest of us!) amount of money from turning doesn't necessarily make them a better turner - someone who regularly sells at craft shows may not have pushed themselves to explore areas that perhaps won't sell.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I don't know!


As for ideas - when I was making boomerangs one of the competitions that I saw was to limit everyone to a certain size of wood to start with. 
This could be done here - produce something from a maximum given size/volume of wood. 

Alternatively - how about using something similar to the postal size checking templates at the post office that is used to determine cost paid. eg. we could say that every item turned must fit through an opening x * y. This would suit pen turners, spindles/goblets, platters, etc depending on the sizes chosen.
Maybe the x*y idea could be split into categories such as spindle and faceplate.

I'm not sure that we need prizes - on a photography forum that I used to visit the prize for the monthly competition was the choice of theme for the next month (and also the option to modify the rules)

As for judges - again, I'm not sure how best to go here. Choosing only a handful of judges will possibly skew the results towards their own preferences.
Our club uses a method where everyone gets 2 votes - worth 2 and 1 point. The scores are then totted up and the person with the most wins.

October feels like a long time to wait, although I probably get more time at the lathe than most. The distant deadline might be needed for the other competition but perhaps not for turning.

These are just my thoughts at the moment and they may well change...

Duncan


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## Paul.J (22 Apr 2009)

I suppose we are just going to have to be as honest with each other as we can,regarding categorising ourselves.
If the judges feel that a member is in the wrong cat than he/she will be asked to change :?: 
Also could we have a restricted amount of selection on items to turn so we can pick which ever one we fancy turning,such as pens,bowls,etc.
Then the next comp a different selection.This will narrow it down some.
Judges should volunteer also i think,they needn't be pros i suppose but some of our more very experienced members.


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## Jenx (22 Apr 2009)

Everything Duncan says there makes very good sense.
Especially like the 'points system of voting', if we could make that happen.
( I guess its possible ? )

Agree with Paul too .. we should be able to be pretty up front about where we should 'live' as individuals and the relative abilities. 8)


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## wizer (23 Apr 2009)

All good points

I am leaning towards not having an advanced/pro/expert section. Mainly because those turners don't seem to have responded and I think this compo should be about development. I think it should be Novice, Experienced and Pens. I really want to get the pen turners involved and I have had an offer of prize and judging from a pen equipment supplier.

To get the most amount of entries, I'd like to see a completely open theme. Anything goes. I understand the concept of regular compos where no prizes are given and there is a monthly or seasonly theme. Personally I view this compo as something different, a bit bigger. The aim is to get turners to think about what they want to turn and then see if they can achieve their goal. For more experienced turners, it's a chance to either push themselves to do something different or improve on something they already do.

To that end I'd like to see a design brief, as in the other compo. This will give you something to work to and help with the judging. I'd like for there to be a pair of judges for each category. Probably the retailer who is providing the prize and (hopefuly) one of our pros.


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## duncanh (23 Apr 2009)

More thoughts on using just a couple of judges - 
1) it excludes them from the competition,
2) the judges will have to come to some sort of agreement on winners and such discussions may be difficult over the net and where you don't have a chance to inspect pieces closely


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## Bodrighy (23 Apr 2009)

At our club, every one gets one vote per category and it works on a simple most votes wins. Personally I think this would be the best bet as getting anyone to judge would be difficult under the circumstances. Up to Tom to sort out the logistics by the sound of it. If we have all the entries on a thread for a week and any votes are PM'd to Tom to count. How does this sound. If anyone feels the need for more or better photos of something then ask as some of us are not so hot at the photography, me incluuded.

Pete


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## Scrums (23 Apr 2009)

Sorry - not been on for a while, so not noticed this thread....

I'm in if you'll have me, but I think there should be some 'grades' of Turners - I'm professional in that I turn for a living, such as it is....though that doesn't automatically say anything about my standard of turning, others I know have other jobs and therefore aren't 'professional', though concentrate on much more decorative/artform work and do it much better than I ever could or would want to.

So....cat amongst the pigeons again ?

Chris.


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## Jenx (23 Apr 2009)

'Committ' officially on the other thread, Chris ... " Competition Entrants "

Magic. good lad :wink: :lol:


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## wizer (23 Apr 2009)

I think we'll end up having one judge per category for a couple of reasons. Mainly because as Duncan says, deliberation will be difficult over the web, especially if the judges don't know (or know of) each other.

I'm not keen on having the members vote. I think it should be down to a judge who has enough experience to comment. It removed the 'buddy' voting and more than anything it makes life a whole lot simpler.

Again, I am pretty much decided on having just Novice and Experienced. The pro turners have not expressed interest. When I post up the rules, I will explain the definition of Novice and Category, but I think it's fairly self explanatory.

I really don't think the quality of photographs should concern anyone. As long as it's on a plain background with goo natural lighting, it should be fine. Entrants would get the chance to re-photograph if needed.

Hopefully by Monday we'll have a set of rules and some firm dates


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## duncanh (24 Apr 2009)

I was thinking last night about the photos that people have to submit.
It would be useful to specify a minimum of ...

a profile,
from a higher angle showing the rim and inside,
1 of the base (either straight down of at an angle)

in addition you might want to submit more if you have particular features that you want to show ...

1 showing overall effect of carving/texture/enhancements (assuming they're allowed)
1 or 2 showing closeups of the above

I was thinking that it might be useful to require multiple profile or higher angle shots so that it's more difficult to hide any torn grain.

And what about a maximum number of photos allowed?

I know it's difficult for some people, but how about requesting photos with a plain backdrop to make judging easier? There's probably a guide kicking around somewhere on how to take better photos, particularly with regards to accurate colour reproduction.


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## Paul.J (24 Apr 2009)

Good points Duncan.
How about having a point system as you say but also for the quality of the piccys taken,with some rules applied to the quality.
I know there have been comments saying "we are turners not photographers"
But i think a good clean uncluttered piccy adds to the quality of the piece.
So if points are awarded for the piccy as well we might get better quality piccys  Just an idea.Or is thyis taking the fun out of the whole idea :? 
Depends how serious the comp is to be taken i suppose.


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## TEP (24 Apr 2009)

You sound as if you intend submitting a bowl *Duncan*. :twisted: :twisted: As I hope, this is only going to be a bit of fun I don't think it really matters about how the photo's are taken. I believe we are all experience enough to know when someone is trying to hide something or not. Let's be honest photos mean very little, a good photographer can bend the subject to suit himself.

If anyone is worried about their piece being given best showing, I guess it is up to them to perfect their photography skills. Which by the way lets me out. If there is any doubt, I'm sure it wouldn't be amiss to ask for some other photos of a particular piece, but only by a judge, other wise it could end up as a free for all.

PS - I hope it is going to be treated as a fun thing *Paul*. Life's to short for much else.


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## Paul.J (24 Apr 2009)

*TEP wrote*


> PS - I hope it is going to be treated as a fun thing Paul. Life's to short for much else.


I think all the turning i do i treat it as fun Tam  
But i think a comp will be taken a little more serious as i think we all mostly will be trying to do summat that we haven't tried before :shock: 
We will just have to wait and see what Tom comes up with re- the rules :shock:


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## TEP (24 Apr 2009)

I certainly won't be trying something I haven't before *Paul*, if I have a go. Or stretching myself, sounds all too painful for me. :lol: :lol:


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## Paul.J (24 Apr 2009)

*TEP wrote*


> I certainly won't be trying something I haven't before Paul, if I have a go. Or stretching myself, sounds all too painful for me.


Fair enough Tam.But as one of our experienced/Advanced/Pro,or which other cat you put yourself in,i thought you would have.
But than again Tam i suppose there isn't much you haven't tried.How about a bowl :lol: 
I was referring to the beginners and slightly more advanced,which seem to be making up most the numbers.
It will be great if you enter Tam,your turnings are an inspiration.


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## Jenx (24 Apr 2009)

Paul.J":mnn8zpc3 said:


> It will be great if you enter Tam,your turnings are an inspiration.



They most certainly are :wink: ...
As are Duncan's too...

Are some of the other top guys going to come on board too ?
Hope so..
Come on Fella's.. its only fun amongst ourselves, and by the sounds, there'll be plenty of time to knock something out...
If anything can be said to 'encourage' you ... when you put something on show for us 'lesser mortals'.. I cannot quantify to you how 'inspirational and educational' it is... its brilliant.

Dive in, and help teach the 'goon-end' of Turning ( i.e Me :wink: ) how to do it properly ! Seriously.. Top end turning, when seen by the numpty-end ( ... i.e. Me again  :wink: ), really does do a minor miracle in driving "us" on. You may even remember it yourselves in the dim and distant past ! :lol: 
And don't be tempted to say " So go look at a book, Numpty " ... its not the same. Not the same as the feeling of 'hey, guess what.. I was in a competition that featured these guys... even if its just ones kids that I'm telling !" :wink: 
Dive in.. get your feet wet.. and above all.. have fun and enjoy. 8) 8) 8) :wink:


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## TEP (24 Apr 2009)

Jeez! *Alun*, you ain't half got a sweet tongue.  

Might just take you up on that bowl *Paul!* :twisted:


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## wizer (24 Apr 2009)

I'm withdrawing my services as Adjudicator.

Someone else can take up the batten if they wish


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## big soft moose (24 Apr 2009)

Jenx":2cc6cr3b said:


> Its doing the rounds... the Moose has it but with his move and wedding its 'stalled' a wee bit, but that should be temporary. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 8) :lol: 8)



ahhh pineapples - i knew the was something - i'll try and send the plans on ( just as soon as i can find them) , my piece is still stalled but theres no reason you guys should have to wait for me to get my act together.


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## Jenx (24 Apr 2009)

wizer":3evdvi9j said:


> I'm withdrawing my services as Adjudicator.
> 
> Someone else can take up the batten if they wish



S'up Dude ? ....
I am really hoping you'll reconsider this decision after sleeping on it.
There's much work gone into it already, I'm sure.

A wider point is not lost there however... and one I feel a tad guilty about..  
You've not thus far, been offered a hand.
I would therefore like to address that ... if you can reconsider this and want to offload half the burden.. just say so, Bud, I'd be honoured to help you.


Aj.


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## Paul.J (25 Apr 2009)

:shock: :shock: :shock: 
:? :? :?


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## wizer (25 Apr 2009)

Sorry guys, I was told off by the powers that be and I don't come here for grief, so I'm out.

Good luck with it.


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## TEP (25 Apr 2009)

TEP":bbnebb3i said:


> Don't want to be the harbinger of doom, but when *Blister* offered a turning idea for the members of this part of the forum a little while back, it fell at the first hurdle.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, the idea is OK, and the initial enthusiasm is there, but for how long?



I'm not shy in coming forward, so. "I told you so!" Too many cooks, and so on. Also, if you can't stand the heat, don't take a job as a stoker! Looks like a fallen cause.

Before anyone says, "You can do it." No thank you, I don't want to impose my ideas on anyone, or many. Did that for too long when I was working.


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## hog&amp;bodge (25 Apr 2009)

wizer":h5qjx9hp said:


> Sorry guys, I was told off by the powers that be and I don't come here for grief, so I'm out.
> 
> Good luck with it.


From what I have read on the forum since joining you have offered
nothing but help to all who join and when action is needed you step in
if you are wrong being you then it is there loss...just one word
for them NUMPTYS...The Wood Turning thread dwellers have given you our
support and always will...
Volunteering is a thankless task but you'd think the forum runners would grab any help that is offered... :?: :?: :?:


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## Paul.J (25 Apr 2009)

*Wizer wrote*


> Sorry guys, I was told off by the powers that be and I don't come here for grief, so I'm out.


So Tom are you saying that the Mods have put a stop to the comp :?: 
If so what do we have to do to get it going.Get their permission :?: 
Excuse me for being so thick :roll:


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## big soft moose (25 Apr 2009)

Paul.J":25s1053f said:


> *Wizer wrote*
> 
> 
> > Sorry guys, I was told off by the powers that be and I don't come here for grief, so I'm out.
> ...



perhaps the "powers that be" should tell us publicly on this thread what the problem is ?

I'm not one to stir up trouble but its not fair that tom should take flak for this alone as it was a collective idea.

I'd be happy to pick up the organising batten if jenx's offer of help is still on the table - but we obviously need to know what the problem is/was before we do anything

is it to do with the other competition ? to do with seeking prize donations ? or just a lack of permision issue ? or something else ?


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## Bodrighy (25 Apr 2009)

As far as I am aware we hadn't got beyond th 'Is it worth having one' stage and were still investigating all the possibilities. Unless there has been something else that I have missed out on how can Tom be chastised for anything? Please could we know wht is wrong and why there has been 'flak' flying.

pete


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## Paul.J (25 Apr 2009)

If asking permission is the problem,then whoever wants to take over Toms roll ought to just ask,as this is what was done on the other comp :? 
There does seem to be enough interest for quite a decent competition between ourselves.


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## Jenx (25 Apr 2009)

BSM - I'd help anybody, if I can. :wink: No problem there.

We'd best see what the lie of the land is in respect of 'who and what the _powers that be_ actually are,' and why Tom's been 'nipped' .

*FTAO - The 'Powers that be' -- : *As Pete pointed out.. this has been nothing more than a discussion and some "exploratory thinking" between ourselves at this moment in time, and to 'pull a guy up' for putting himself forward to take on the (frankly) thankless task of co-ordinating the thinking, which.. if you cared to read the entirity of the discussion, makes very clear mention of ensuring the owners / operators of the site would be consulted and their blessing sought *ONCE A PLAN WAS DECIDED UPON*, is bordering on disgusting behaviour.
The self-same guy who organised the badges for everyones benefit too.. to add insult to injury.
Poor show, people... very poor. 
I would have expected better.
That is _very_ disappointing.
I think the guys here deserve some sort of explanation.

Lets hope some form of response is presented.. at which point BSM & Myself can decide on how to proceed.


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## TEP (25 Apr 2009)

It may not have anything to do with the forum '_powers that be_', who knows *Tom* may have the hump about something else? Yet if it is, as you say it would be nice to know why.


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## loz (25 Apr 2009)

Sorry to hear something is amiss !

Any explainations from the admin's?

Tom has done nothing wrong here that i can see.

Awaiting PUBLIC explaination from Powers that be..........

Loz


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## Jenx (25 Apr 2009)

Precisely Tam. 

Whcih is why the question is posed to the 'Powers That Be' as opposed to anyone / any group otherwise named.

Your're quite right.



_Edit : Have sought the assistance of DaveL by PM,
Just to save 'duplication' of this happening._


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## Paul.J (25 Apr 2009)

Who else would _the Powers that be_,be :?: 
Those are Tom's words,and the Mods have been on this morning so if it was nothing to do with them surely one of them would have said so by now :? 
I know Tom was annoyed as i was and i'm sure others were that the other comp seem to leave all other parts of this forum out.
In fact i think we were only mentioned once in passing by Philly,to get all parties involved.
As one member once said to me about a Bash 
"What's with all this seperatism"
And as i said at the time i think seperate bash/competitions are the only way to go,as our type of Woodwork is completely different to the other types,so judging and prizing will be difficult.
If we all want competitions why can't we all have our own seperate ones once a year or or every other year.Providing there are members willing to take up the reigns of course.


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## Jenx (25 Apr 2009)

Lets await a response.

One has been requested of a mod by PM,


Speculation is natural.. but lets await the official line,
and take things from there.


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## TEP (25 Apr 2009)

I don't think this is really about _separatism_ as such. I just don't think flat work & turned work will ever be able to be judged together. Or for that matter put together for anything. The flat competition is more about planning, setting up the project, and so on. The actual making of the piece seems to be secondary to all that.

I looked at the rules with the idea of taking part, and decided that there is no way I could put up to 350 words about planning my piece. Or trying to explain all the procedures I go through in the making of it. Our work is more of a few scribbles then a impromptu mingling of thought and ability at the moment, not put together over a period of weeks.

Enough of my ramblings, one thing that does have me puzzled is how the competition could be stopped anyway. What would they do, bar all the participants? Don't think any forum would last very long with out '_forumites_' to populate it. Cool word eh! Also what harm was being done?


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## Jenx (25 Apr 2009)

Dave's read the PM ...
And one can but assume that he's looking into it and speaking with the moderator team.

We need to give them a chance to discuss and respond, as the logistics involved in that kind of exercise are bound to be a bit tricky, and time consuming. ( well I _know_ they are, having been an "admin" on a UK Wide PHPBB board in the past. ).

I'm guessing comment / explanation will follow in due course...
It will take a wee bit of time for this to happen, thats to be understandable.


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## wizer (25 Apr 2009)

TEP":1d0adwa2 said:


> TEP":1d0adwa2 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't want to be the harbinger of doom, but when *Blister* offered a turning idea for the members of this part of the forum a little while back, it fell at the first hurdle.
> ...



Tam, until you posted this comments, I didn't have the 'hump' about anything at all. But you really have offended me here. You've made assumptions about things you have no clue about and criticised my character. I'm not sure what I did to offend you or anyone else by trying to raise interest in a community activity. I'd suggest you keep your scathing comments to yourself if they are not in any way constructive.

To put it bluntly I'm just not interested in getting it in the neck for trying to help everyone out.


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## big soft moose (25 Apr 2009)

wizer":2op1hgjj said:


> To put it bluntly I'm just not interested in getting it in the neck for trying to help everyone out.



and i can't say that i blame you mate, - leaving tams comments aside i'm sure no one (else) is having a pop at you for dropping the competition idea as something has clearly happened to upset or agreive you.

This may well be a case of least said soonest mended and i dont want to stir the pot.

however it would be good if we could nail down who the powers that be are ( a moderator , moderators collectively, charley or just a long term member or members ) and what the problem is/was

I understand that you probably dont want to go into it on the open board but maybe you could let me know the S.P by pm as neither I (nor i assume jenx) want to get it in the neck either if we pick up the batten.


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## TEP (25 Apr 2009)

*Tom*, if you are looking for a whipping boy, you go ahead. I only say things as I see them, and ALL my comments are on record for all to see. If anyone thinks I have made a poor statement then so be it. I fail to see how anything I have said could be taken as 'offensive', all myself and the others where doing was wondering what had happened, and why it had all fallen flat. 

If you don't deem it necessary to let us all know what is going on, then you must expect, and indeed accept some sort of discussion as we wonder what has been said or has happened to cause this.

I can understand you feeling some grievance for what has happened, to which as you say I am not privy, but to lash out when I DON'T know what is going on is a little petty to say the least.

If you are saying I caused your problems, then I can only apologise, but would be grateful if you could explain how & when I have done so.


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## stevebuk (25 Apr 2009)

Come on guys lets not get into falling out over it, its just a forum who wants a competition, no need for finger pointing and remarks so lets just let the Mods decide what we can and cant have eh, chin up guys.


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## wizer (25 Apr 2009)

This is all getting blown out of proportion. I was told that I had no business setting up a competition without getting prior permission. I'm not offended by that but I think I was spoken down to by someone who hadn't fully looked at the situation and spoke out of turn.

I decided to pull out because I have some prety serious medical issues and I really don't need to be going round and round in circles with yet another body of governance.

Tam you offended me by making assumptions that I was giving up because 'I couldn't handle it' or I was 'spitting my dummy out'. At no point in the 4yrs I've been joined to this forum have I acted in or been treated in such a way. I suggest, if you are not in full possession of the facts, that you keep your comments to your self. I'm not sure how I could be making you my 'whipping boy'. This, at no point, had anything to do with you.


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## big soft moose (25 Apr 2009)

wizer":3azgiwio said:


> This is all getting blown out of proportion. I was told that I had no business setting up a competition without getting prior permission. .



thanks for clearing that up wizer - I guess me and jenx can pick the batten up from here and try to get permision as it would be a shame to let this idea go given the degree of interest.

I guess the best thing would be for us to wait and see what if anything comes from aluns pm to dave L and then if necessary I'll contact charley.

In the meantime i'd suggest that people keep expressing interest on the other thread as this will help us make our case for a round world comp , but everyone please bear in mind that it is *an idea only* until official permision is granted.

(and re the contretemps with tom and tam can you two please kiss and make up - you are both valuable forum members and this kind of falling out saddens me - and i would guess others - greatly)


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## Bodrighy (25 Apr 2009)

big soft moose":2foksdzn said:


> (and re the contretemps with tom and tam can you two please kiss and make up - you are both valuable forum members and this kind of falling out saddens me - and i would guess others - greatly)



=D> =D> 

Pete


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## Noel (25 Apr 2009)

Please guys, no need to fall out with each other.
It was I that wrote to Wizer voicing some concerns about organizing a turning competition. This is what I PM'd to Wizer:

_Hi Wizer, hope all is well. 
Ref the turning competition, I feel that this should have been officially sanctioned prior to gathering interest or at least discussed with the mods as you gathered interest. I applaud you and the others on your initiative but there is naturally some concern about seeking prizes from companies and suppliers and promoting/using the UKWW site in order to do this. Of course I understand that the competition is being organised for the best reasons but I think it best you or others open some discussion with the mods as soon as possible. 

I can understand that turners may feel somewhat left out of the current competition but I must mention that one of the members put forward the idea and after some discussion between the mods it became official with the benefit of stickies and permission to use the site's name to pull in some prizes. 

So let me know what you want to do, making it official will be of benefit to all concerned and you can either run it as a seperate competition, as a separate category in the turning board or defer it until the first competition is over. 

Rgds 

Noel_


Now as far as I can see there's no ill feeling mentioned in the above. Simply a suggestion to talk to the mods. There's certainly no indication of heavy handedness or anything that might be construed as some sort of telling off. So please feel free to discuss the options that I suggested to Wizer.
I won't post Wizer's reply to my PM unless he gives me permission to do so.


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## wizer (25 Apr 2009)

My reply.

_Noel I was ignored when I asked Rob about including the turners in his competition and I have been ignored by Charley.

I'm happy to drop it, it's just work for me.

Cheers

Tom_

Noel I think you're just stirring up more debate here aren't you? I already said it was no big deal and the reason I was spoke to.

I'm not chucking my dummy out, I'm just not interested in working on this project anymore.


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## big soft moose (25 Apr 2009)

Noel":3gxmos9m said:


> Please guys, no need to fall out with each other.
> It was I that wrote to Wizer voicing some concerns about organizing a turning competition. This is what I PM'd to Wizer:
> 
> _Hi Wizer, hope all is well.
> ...



Noel - i'm sending you a pm re the compo as i'm taking over from wizer as the round world facilitator. (edit : could you also use your special mod powers to make this a stickie)

re the other stuff i really think its a matter of least said soonest mended and is water under the bridge now anyway.


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## big soft moose (25 Apr 2009)

Update - We now have official approval to run the competition. Well hurrah.

I will be your facilitator ( but not I hasten to add a judge) and Alun (Jenx) will be my "beautiful" assistant.

once I've had a chance to think about it (probably tommorow) i will start a new thread with rules, timescales etc - we'll be keeping things pretty simple as per the consensus higher upthis thread.

Ive asked for both comp threads (plus the new one) to be made sticky.

If anyone has ideas, questions, insults or whatever feel free to post them here or send me a pm.


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## Jonzjob (25 Apr 2009)

As a total novice of only about 12 or so years turning, on and off, can I join in pretty please?

Sorry to be so late on this, but I have only just found the thread and have been busy rotovating what seems most of our garden, well the bit round the pool anyway!

I think that it's a great idea and after reading the thread through I think that it would be a great shame if Wiser decides not to enter.

I have only been involved in this forum for a short while, but it has always come over as a good friendly place to be. Some of the other forums I am invloved with are not so. It would be a great shame if this one were to suffer because of what to me seems to be a misunderstanding.

Good luck with your medical situation Wiser. You have my sympathy especially when wet weather makes it difficult for me to write with the arthritis in my hands. That is one of the reasons we moved here and to rub it in it's bloody well raining now!

Just as a matter of interest this a monthly comp that we run on a wonderful forum I'm on. Members vote for the winner, 2 votes each, and the winner selects the next months photo theme. No prizes, just the satisfaction of knowing that the other members liked your photo best!

http://www.the-anglo-french-forum.co.uk ... pic=2207.0

A totally different concept, but I thought you may be interested? This months theme was Culinary Delight.


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## Jenx (25 Apr 2009)

Great Stuff Jon .. thats excellent.  

Have mentioned in the other thread.. just back in, after an evening's fishing and a bit of 'fiddling with a weasel' ( another story ! )... :lol: 

Sounds like we've got the sanction we need.... and that in itself is good news. BSM has already been in contact, and I will get back to him in a minute or two, and pick up 'proper' on it tomorrow. 8) 

Just to mention... lads, have a wee cuddle and a nibble of an earlobe each,... we've got a really good thing going in this little corner of the "internerd" here, with a great bunch of people... and having read (not that long ago ) about how initially on the 'Spinney Bit', Chas and Graham basically kept it chugging along and nutured it into becoming something quite special... well, not to sound too 'soppy' or anything, but that kind of dedication 'speaks' to me ... and we all owe it to guys like that, and indeed to each other, to keep that kind of spirit alive and evolving. 
Without all you fella's here... I'd be a lonely, very remote butcherer of nice timbers .... I cannot put a value on the assistance and encouragement that this place gives me ... and that means I can butcher the wood and then share the experience of doing so with all you fine gents ( and ladies ! ) :wink: :wink: :lol: ... so, if its ok, can we take it as read that 'all harmonies are fully restored' ? :wink: :lol: 
Good !    

Ok.. as said, apologies for my 'lateness' this evening .. the fishing opportunity was too tempting to ignore ! .

I'll go get a reply to Pete ( BSM ) sorted, and as mentioned.. we'll all collectively pick up on the thing tomorrow, refreshed, recharged, and overflowing with enthusiasm, as ever :wink: :lol: 
Cheers all...
Live well. 8) 8) 8)


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## Jonzjob (26 Apr 2009)

Blimey Jenx, the way you were talking I thought that you were in the Shetlands and not the county of Aberdeenshire?


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## big soft moose (26 Apr 2009)

Jenx":k52djw2w said:


> Just to mention... lads, have a wee cuddle and a nibble of an earlobe each,...



thats a mental image that i really didnt need :shock:


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## miles_hot (26 Apr 2009)

big soft moose":2l4xop3i said:


> Jenx":2l4xop3i said:
> 
> 
> > Just to mention... lads, have a wee cuddle and a nibble of an earlobe each,...
> ...



Frankly I'm pretty scared by "fiddling with a weasel"  Thanks jenx!

MIles


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## Jenx (26 Apr 2009)

Jonzjob":2lam9pnc said:


> Blimey Jenx, the way you were talking I thought that you were in the Shetlands and not the county of Aberdeenshire?



He heh... good point, it could be worse ! 
Just me & Dick Morris up here, -- don't know if we've anyone registered on the forum from the Northern Isles ? .. here must be guys turning up there.. there's about 65000 people on Shetland, so there _has to be _ one or two woodwhirlers there, you'd think !

There's definately one on Orkney.. I saw him in a magazine ! 



Miles- The weasel was, on reflection, a stoat !... I put a picture of him on, in another thread. :lol: ... aggressive wee devil, near took a chunk out of my dog's nose ! :lol: :lol:


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## wizer (26 Apr 2009)

Now I've had time to cool down, I'm really looking forward to the compo. I already have an idea of what I want to enter.


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## Jonzjob (26 Apr 2009)

"Miles- The weasel was, on reflection, a stoat !... I put a picture of him on, in another thread. ... aggressive wee devil, near took a chunk out of my dog's nose !"

Jenx, I thought that everyone knew the difference 'cause a weasel is weasily distinguished whereas a stoat is staotly different! :twisted: :roll: :evil:


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## mrs. sliver (26 Apr 2009)

Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs! I haven't been on for a while and missed the whole thread. 

However, I am chuffed it all is settled now and GAME ON! :lol: 

I will try keep up this time  
I look froward to the posting of the rules.


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## big soft moose (26 Apr 2009)

mrs. sliver":26xw0ju1 said:


> Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs! .



what a strange place to keep the lathe ... well it takes all sorts


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## mrs. sliver (26 Apr 2009)

ee, we 'ave funny ways in these parts love! :lol:


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## Paul.J (28 Apr 2009)

Just to get it clear,for me anyway.
All we have to do now is submit our finished turned item. :?: 
There is no design drawings required. :?: 
Also is three piccys going to be enough of a bowl or hollow form.
If it is are there any particular shots the judges want to see,such as the base the inside,etc :?: 
If it's a box do we need to show the above and the inside of lid,or will further piccys be requested :?: 
I apologise if the answers are already in the rules.


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## Jenx (28 Apr 2009)

Hiya Paul ... not playing with that beast ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Moose will confirm the answers, no doubt when he comes on. :wink:


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## big soft moose (28 Apr 2009)

Paul.J":23izzn8l said:


> Just to get it clear,for me anyway.
> All we have to do now is submit our finished turned item. :?:
> There is no design drawings required. :?:
> Also is three piccys going to be enough of a bowl or hollow form.
> ...



yes - you just have to submit your finished item - we are keeping this simple so no design drawings are required ( if you want to put design drawings on a WIP thread then please do so but you wont be judged on them - just on your submission)

there are no dedicated angles as the items submitted may range widely - just the three pics (or less) which best show the work . ( so for a box you might choose to show it closed, inside, and inside the lid - wheras someone who had made a goblet might feel that just a profile shot and inside the cup was sufficient.) 

We are limiting it to three to make the judges life easy - they are all busy folk and no one wants to dig through half a ream of photos and text

I will put a guide to taking comp photos on the sticky thread tommorow - but all the usual points apply - neutral background , etc etc.

( btw I am going to request that the mods close this thread so that the unpleasentness can be put behind us ... any further questions please ask them on the sticky thread here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=31909 )


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## Paul.J (28 Apr 2009)

That's great  
Simple will do me  :lol:


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## mrs. sliver (28 Apr 2009)

I have sorted a 'lump of log' that I have nominated for the task .. but not got clue what it s going to be! :shock:


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## wizer (28 Apr 2009)

I've got several lumps of log, one of them _might _get entered.... :wink:


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## Bodrighy (28 Apr 2009)

I'll do a swap, I've got an idea but not the wood :lol: 

Pete


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## Paul.J (28 Apr 2009)

You're on Pete :lol:


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## Bodrighy (28 Apr 2009)

Paul.J":eucwjjgr said:


> You're on Pete :lol:



I'll PM you the idea and you post me some laburnum....deal?  

Pete


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## Paul.J (28 Apr 2009)

Ahh.What if i don't like the idea though :roll:


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## Noel (28 Apr 2009)

The competition organizers have asked that this thread be closed and that all future comments and contributions be posted in the competition sticky thread.


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