# What to get for b'day



## Anonymous (15 Feb 2004)

HI all

As I may have mentioned in another post it's my birthday soon and I need to choose a prezzy from mrs Tony.

Big birthday at four zero!! pipper! Deserves a special prezzy.

At the moment it's between:
Lie Nielsen no5 plane (how much????) (still haven't seen one in the flesh?? metal)
Clifton no 5
New high quality Tenon saw
Set of (English style) chisels

What should I get???


Who makes the Lie Nielsens of the chisel world?

Why am I asking you lot :?: 

Thanks guys

Tony


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## Anonymous (16 Feb 2004)

Tony,
You are asking us because of the completely unbiased, excellent advice that is available here from countless wise, experienced, handsome (and beautiful) people  

Having explained that, I reckon you should get what you really need which is none of the things you have listed. What you really, really, really need is a Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 with the new chipbreaker.


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## Chris Knight (16 Feb 2004)

I second this



Anonymous":lglf1wgk said:


> Tony,
> You are asking us because of the completely unbiased, excellent advice that is available here from countless wise, experienced, handsome (and beautiful) people
> 
> Having explained that, I reckon you should get what you really need which is none of the things you have listed. What you really, really, really need is a Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 with the new chipbreaker.



Actually, I wrote it but forgot to login!

There is actually some logic behind my suggestion. If Mrs is paying for it, you get the most expensive option of the ones you listed plus a bit. 

A 5 1/2 is more universally useful than a 5 (DCs recommendation and one I am happy to have followed). The new LN chipbreaker gets rave reviews. Whereas you might want to cut things with a handsaw, I bet you end up planing by hand more frequently. A set of English style chisels will disappoint unless you build it up yourself a bit at a time by buying pre-war chisels that were made of decent steel and had nice bevels unlike the chisels one sees made today.

Lie -Nielsen actually make the chisels of the chisel world. Only trouble is that they don't yet sell them. Tom has shown me a chisel at the last two Axminster shows and promised they were just around the corner - trouble is I don't know which corner. Until they emerge from the land of vapourware, you really can't do better than old chisels. Do not be seduced by shiny new ones with names like Two Cherries, Ashley Iles etc. By all means get old Sorbys, Mathiesons and the like. In fact almost any of the older Sheffield makers that made cast steel chisels. Don't be put off by chips, or surface rust as those things can easily be rectified but avoid pitting on the backs like the plague - you can't do much about that and any pits that intercept the edge will mean a useless edge.


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## Alf (16 Feb 2004)

Tony,

Well it's hard to say, not knowing what you already have, but I can't resist the opportunity to spend someone else's money... :lol: 

While agree with Chris and DC that the #5 1/2 is a nice size plane to have, it wouldn't be my choice to spend L-N type money on. That really applies to a #5 too _unless_ you intend to use it as an uber smoother, in which case you really need to have picked one up to decide if you want to shuffle round 5 1/2 lbs of ductile iron across a table top or whatever. If you want a jack for jack tasks, it's gotta drop well down the list of L-Ns to purchase to my mind. Obviously that's a very personal decision, and I wouldn't actually turn down either :wink: Now if you haven't got a high class smoother, I'd unhesitatingly recommend the #4 1/2. And with one of the new cap irons too, well you'd be a very happy chappy.

However, I must try and remember planes aren't everything... New high quality tenon saw would have to be between the L-N carcass and the Adria. Both great saws by all accounts, another personal preference thing. But exactly how much use would you see it getting in your work? Only you can say.

As Chris so rightly says, the L-Ns of the chisel world _will be_ the L-N chisels, and they are very nice indeed. What is it now? 2 1/2 years since Tom started promising them?  And of course, once they do get going the first lots will go to those who've been on the waiting list all that time. Even if they do come out this year, I wouldn't expect them to be available until Christmas. Sort of a shame, 'cos I did seriously consider ditching all my old cast steel ones in favour of them for my own Big Birthday this year. I was hard put to give back the one I drooled over at Westpoint  But they're not exactly "English" style anyway. If you do go secondhand, you'll do heaps better if you don't feel the need to have a matching set and (disagreeing with Chris again here) don't assume that old chisel equals good chisel. They used to get it wrong sometimes, or someone may have drawn the temper with poor grinding. Generally you seem to have to get about 3 times as many chisels as you want in order to get one good user set. Or maybe that's just my excuse... I've not used them myself, but the Kirschen, Ashley Iles and Ray Iles ones all get well spoken of, and I don't think it can be entirely for no reason.

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (16 Feb 2004)

Hey All,
I dropped Thom an Email recently on the chisel subject-he said they are making good progress and will be announcing in the email newsletter when they are ready to ship. Oh, and that I put my name down on the list to receive the first batch, etc, etc.
So they could be out soon, or it could be another couple of years.
regards,
Philly


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2004)

Alf":2qlqlsgz said:


> Tony,
> 
> Now if you haven't got a high class smoother, I'd unhesitatingly recommend the #4 1/2. And with one of the new cap irons too, well you'd be a very happy chappy.
> 
> Cheers, Alf




After agonising and researching I finally ordered a 4 1/2 with improved chipbreaker from the LN site 5 minutes ago. Thanks for the advice Alf

Am now actually looking forward to turning 40 which makes a change  

.


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## Alf (20 Feb 2004)

Gosh, I need to start getting commision for this...

Excellent news, Tony. Hope you get as much pleasure out of your #4 1/2 as I do out of mine.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Gill (20 Feb 2004)

I know it's not a LN or anything of that quality, but I picked up an old Stanley four an' an' 'arf at auction and tuned it up. I love it and actually prefer it to the slightly bigger Stanley jacks. It seems to be just that little more responsive.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of pleasure out of your new LN, Tony. Happy birthday.

Yours

Gill


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## Anonymous (21 Feb 2004)

Cheers Gill


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## Anonymous (2 Mar 2004)

Aaarrggghhhh

LN 4 1/2 is here already!!! But it's still two weeks to my birthday and I have to wait


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## SimonA (3 Mar 2004)

HEHE......how many people have birthdays in March!!.......Mines at the end of the month and I've had my Clifton #7 sitting in the front room now for about a week....its killing me......I keep thing that when the missus goes out I'll sneek it into the workshop and have a bit play!

Tony, do you mind me asking how much you paid for it and how much you paid on import tax?

Cheers.

SimonA


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## Charley (3 Mar 2004)

Tony":21z0e8tc said:


> Aaarrggghhhh
> 
> LN 4 1/2 is here already!!! But it's still two weeks to my birthday and I have to wait



I know how you feel Tony. I got a Tormek grinder a month before christmas last year  

As Simon said, did you have to pay any import duty on the plane? If so how much?


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## Anonymous (3 Mar 2004)

Unfortunately yes. The import duty came to £39.49 which is a real pipper.

oh well....


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## Charley (3 Mar 2004)

Tony":16v353ar said:


> Unfortunately yes. The import duty came to £39.49 which is a real pipper.
> 
> oh well....



pipper.. I've been lucky so far with orders from across the pond. (touching wood as I type)

If you don't mind me asking how much did the shipping cost?


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## Anonymous (11 Mar 2004)

Congrats on the new play thing... a 4 1/2 is a wonderful beast! I'm with Gill on this - I picked up a '50/60s vintage stanley at a car boot sale, 18 quid, bit of work, and it's (almost) my plane of choice...it vies for that position with my Ray Iles recon 5 1/2


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## Anonymous (12 Mar 2004)

Don't know about shipping but total was around £170 + import, so about £15 (+ delivery) cheaper than in UK. Main reason for going to states for purchase was to get the new chipbreaker fitted for free.

Still a week to go before I can get my grubby paws on it though


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## Steve (16 Mar 2004)

Chris wrote:



> You really can't do better than old chisels. Do not be seduced by shiny new ones with names like Two Cherries, Ashley Iles etc. By all means get old Sorbys, Mathiesons and the like. In fact almost any of the older Sheffield makers that made cast steel chisels.


I simply cannot comprehend how a cast steel chisel could possibly be superior to one that has been forged - like the Kirschens which you say we should not be seduced by. It turns everything I understand about steel on its head. On the other hand - I only have a general grasp of metallurgy - I'm certainly no expert!

Could you explain?

Steve


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## Anonymous (16 Mar 2004)

From my basic understanding, the issue with many modern chisels (and plane irons too) is the alloys used to make them nice and shiny and rust-free. Simply put, the size of the (for example) chromium molecules/atoms in the alloy are just too big to get a really decent sharp edge on them

Ron Hock explains it much better than I can - see this link
http://www.hocktools.com/steelrap.htm


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## Anonymous (16 Mar 2004)

And some more, this time from the fine-tools web site (http://www.fine-tools.com) :



> Another point - maybe you have heard the story of the ancient chisel rediscovered in a corner of the attic. It still worked, and sharpened up brilliantly, to an edge that lasted for ages. It rapidly became the tool of preference for every job. And what happened? Not a miracle, unless you count the properties of carbon steel, for that was what it was made of: carbon steel is excellent to sharpen and has high hardness. In the 19th century, virtually every cutting tool was made of carbon steel. The name is given to steel unalloyed with any other substance. It is allowed to contain up to 1.7 % carbon. It has some disadvantages - it is brittle and can be denatured if heated. And it is not stainless.
> 
> Many of today's manufacturers avoid these disadvantages by using steel alloys. Adding chromium and nickel, for instance, makes the steel stainless, adding tungsten and molybdenum makes it resistant to heat, and titanium toughens it. Foundries will mix the additives to obtain the best combination for the product.
> 
> ...



As it says, the Two Cherries, or Kirschen, chisels are alloyed, not high-carbon steel.


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## Alf (16 Mar 2004)

Steve":362kv69u said:


> I simply cannot comprehend how a cast steel chisel could possibly be superior to one that has been forged


Steve,

I think you might be confusing the _type_ of steel with the way it's formed into the tool. Cast steel refers to the method of producing the raw material, rather than the chisel or blade being cast in a mould. Cast steel chisels are forged in the normal way. What used to be done was to impregnate carbon into wrought iron in a furnace to create steel, called blister or shear steel. This was discontinued in favour of using a crucible and then _casting_ it into moulds to be subsequently rolled out. It made for a greatly superior steel for cutting tools, so it was recognised as a sign of quality and "Cast Steel" was stamped on _everything_ accordingly. :roll: Hope that clears up any confusion, 'cos that's the absolute limit of my knowledge of the subject!

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (16 Mar 2004)

Hey All,
Just as an aside-this months issue of FWW has an article on the various tools steels and their uses.
Cheers
Philly


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## Steve (16 Mar 2004)

Many thanks one and all - it just shows you (or rather me!) how one can labour under a misapprehension for years!
You were right Alf - I had things confused.
ESP - thanks for taking the time and trouble to put that quote on.

Most appreciated guys,

Steve


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## Anonymous (18 Mar 2004)

Ha Ha!! Finally the day has arrived. My word it's a beautiful piece of engineering. Even the screws in the handles are aligned with the plane body :!: Perfection in metal and a bargain. If you hesitated to part with £200+ for an LN then hesitate no more - they are worth every penny.

Now if only I could afford the 5 1/2..........

End of gloat


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## Charley (18 Mar 2004)

Well you're a stronger man then me but I bet it's been worth the wait


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## Alf (18 Mar 2004)

Tony,

Many happy returns of the day!  I won't look back in the thread and see what number it was you said, so: 21 again eh? :wink: 

Cheers, Alf

Who _always_ hesitates before spending £200+, mainly in the cause of self preservation... :roll: :wink: :lol:


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## Steve (24 Mar 2004)

Just read the article in FWW (thanks Philly) which was as informative as it was confusing! Most 'purists' I know rave about carbon steel much as audiophiles rave about valve sound and vinyl, but just about everything I'm reading says that modern alloy steels are far superior. Similarly, I think digitally sampled sound beats the pants off a needle on vinyl - but that's another story...

David Charlesworth and Tom LN agree with this assumption - so who am I to argue? 
The more I learn, the less I know... (with thanks to Gill!)

Steve (off to read about cryogenically induced molecular alignment...)

pass the Nurofen, someone?


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