# New Irwin Record Handplanes



## markh (7 Jan 2011)

Treated myself for Christmas to a No.7 and No.5 Irwin Record. Wish I hadn't bothered!!!

I know, you are all shouting "told you so!"

Well, I thought £180 was a reasonable price to pay for a couple of reasonable quality handplanes to expand the collection. Big mistake. The enamel was poor (and chipped around the edges), the handles were lacquered by a three year old with a trowel and the yoke is made from Tesco's value cheddar......... Oh, and the cam action has vanished from the yoke to be replaced by a cheap brass screw to complete the picture of cheap and nastiness!

I spent some time searching Ebay for a nice second hand No 7 or 8, bid on a couple but didn't dig deep enough into my pocket before weakening and selling my soul to the devil........  

I now have a dilemma: after I have returned the offending items for a full refund do I,

1. Spend even less money on some Anant planes from Rutlands? (Can't be any worse, can they?)
2. Go mad and spend more than double the money on a couple of Cliftons
3. Be patient a keep searching on Flea bay. This is a bit more risky as it is difficult to tell how old they are unless you are an expert (I recognise good tools but I am not knowledgable enough to spot the gems from small photos on t'internet!) and there is alot of luck involved...

Any advice from seasoned pros will be welcome but please spare me the abuse for straying from the path of enlightenment!

Cheers,

Markh


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## mickthetree (7 Jan 2011)

Mark

Sorry to hear your bad experience. 

I havent used one but heard very good things about the Quangsheng planes and in particular the number 6. Have a look over on workshopheaven.

This will flatten panels, joint an edge and perform most of the takes one would require.

Most of my planes are from ebay and I've been lucky. My main plain is a record number 8 with a clifton blade and find it great for so many tasks. However, I have just picked up a record 5 1/2 which is going to take a fair bit of work to take the concavity out of the sole. But it was cheap. You pays yer money....

Take a look at the Quangsheng.


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## Alf (7 Jan 2011)

Ah well, Markh, every day's a learning day - and you _might_ have got lucky. At least you can send them back and have a second try.



markh":1qvnpm42 said:


> I now have a dilemma: after I have returned the offending items for a full refund do I,
> 
> 1. Spend even less money on some Anant planes from Rutlands? (Can't be any worse, can they?)


Um... Wanna bet? A better option would be the Quangsheng/Qiangsheng variety, which are really very good. Unfortunately no No.7 though. Heck, if there was, I'd probably have bought one by now, but only 'cos the L-N #7 keeps getting further and further out of my reach (gone up another £20 *sob* ).



markh":1qvnpm42 said:


> 2. Go mad and spend more than double the money on a couple of Cliftons.


Well is it madness? I bet you'll still be thanking yourself for buying a good tool long, long after you've forgotten the pain of the cost.



markh":1qvnpm42 said:


> 3. Be patient a keep searching on Flea bay. This is a bit more risky as it is difficult to tell how old they are unless you are an expert (I recognise good tools but I am not knowledgable enough to spot the gems from small photos on t'internet!) and there is alot of luck involved...


I'll leave the Ebay-savvy to this one. Personally I wouldn't buy a secondhand plane off Ebay, however much a bargain. 'ticularly a jointer, where it's going to save a whole heap of trouble if you can at least start with a flatish sole. And there's also the thought that you might want to upgrade the iron and possibly the cap iron as well. That can add up (see the other thread running at the moment) so you might want to factor that in.

Assuming you're intending to use the jack as a jack (rougher work) and the jointer as a jointer (edge jointing, shooting possibly, finer levelling work) then I'd be tempted to throw some good money at the jointer and get something cheaper in the jack. Cliffie for the former and maybe take the s/h punt on the jack, f'rinstance.

Cheers, Alf


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## Fromey (7 Jan 2011)

From what I've heard, because of the role of a jointer, the sole really does need to be flat. Thus, anything from eBay has associated risks of not being flat, and with such a long sole, it will be a complete proverbial to flatten one. Thus, I would suggest looking only at a new and reputable brand plane. I too want Quangsheng to produce a No. 7 and wonder if the No. 6 would suffice (Chris Schwarz claims that a true jointing plane starts at 22" long). I've not heard anything good about the Anant planes.

If you were to go second hand, how about Old Tools, who at least review each plane;

http://www.oldtools.co.uk/

As an aside, it's interesting to me that only the expensive brands (Irwin/Record excepted) seem to be making No. 7 or 8 planes. I wonder if this is something to do with the inherent requirement and difficulty in getting a flat sole.


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## Modernist (7 Jan 2011)

I take it you havn't noticed my Quangsheng No 6 in the for sale area :?:


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## Trizza (7 Jan 2011)

I'll add another vote for the QS planes - I use my QS No. 6 as both a long jack and a short jointer, and it does a great job. Most of my work is small enough though that I don't really need a full sized jointer. I do wish they'd do a No. 7 or No. 8!


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## Fromey (7 Jan 2011)

Not to derail the topic, but for what length wood would it be appropriate to use a No. 6 as a jointer? At what length of work do you really need to go up to a No. 7?


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## markh (7 Jan 2011)

Wow! Lots of replies already - thanks for your interest.

I was moving round to the idea of a Clifton jointer and a cheaper Jack plane.

I found a new Clifton No.7 for £255 from Toolnut.co.uk and someone is selling a Record No.5 new (yes, like the one I am sending back.......) for 20 quid on ebay.

I will have a look at Quangsheng - never heard of them before but you guys seem to rate them quite highly.

Good advice re jointer planes needing to be flat. Funnily enough that is about the only good thing I have to say about the Irwin Record. The quality of the main casting seems good and flat so maybe it is a starting point to build something up from decent spares?

Anyway, I will still be sending them back because I shouldn't need to rebuild a new tool that costs £120 from a supposedly reputable manufacturer.

On the subject of ebay, have a look at item number 250750480703. Looks promising to me and as someone mentioned in a different thread, real men use a No.8!!

Does anyone have any bad things to report about Clifton? I like the idea of buying a good old fashioned hand tool made in Sheffield and I am dangerously close to taking the plunge!


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## mickthetree (7 Jan 2011)

personally, I would spend the extra £18 and get it from workshop heaven. Or ask him if he can do anything on the price. I havent any experience from toolnut and they may be perfectly good, but matthews service is second to none and I'd always rather order from him.

If you are thinking about getting the cliffy then you wont ever be disappointed with it.


.......shove....... 8)


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## markh (7 Jan 2011)

Just checked out Brian's Quangsheng No.6 - looks lovely!

I am erring towards a 7 or 8 for jointing longer boards but if anyone else is wanting a number 6 plane go and have a look - it is immaculate!


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## Modernist (7 Jan 2011)

markh":u7nzud4g said:


> Just checked out Brian's Quangsheng No.6 - looks lovely!
> 
> I am erring towards a 7 or 8 for jointing longer boards but if anyone else is wanting a number 6 plane go and have a look - it is immaculate!



Thanks for that! I already have an 7 and 8 which is why I am selling it. If Quangsheng did a 5 1/2 I'd be in the market for one of those too.

Personally I'm not a great fan of Clifton although I am sure they are a fine plane and I realise I am in a small minority. The Lie Neilsen No 8 is a great plane if you can afford it. (I can't BTW mines a Record with corrugated sole!!  )

Good luck in your quest.


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## Alf (7 Jan 2011)

Fromey":2zvn72cn said:


> Not to derail the topic, but for what length wood would it be appropriate to use a No. 6 as a jointer? At what length of work do you really need to go up to a No. 7?


Around the 4ft mark floats into my mind for some reason. What's that in metric? 1240mm? Which, if you think about it, is more than adequate for an awful lot of furniture building. 

Dunno why it is that I have this mental block on the #6 really; I mean if real men (Hah!) use a #8 then elegant ladies such as wot I am (Hah! again  ) should probably be delicately wielding a #6 rather than a #7... :lol:


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## kirkpoore1 (7 Jan 2011)

You could get on Patrick Leach's mailing list and wait for something to show up. I haven't been on it for some time, but IIRC #5's showed up frequently and #7's weren't rare. Of course, I realize payment will be more of a hassle, but you can probably count on getting what you pay for.

http://www.supertool.com/oldtools.htm

Kirk
who paid about $100 for a new Record #7 in ~1990 and is sorry to hear that they've gone in the toilet...


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## János (7 Jan 2011)

Hello,

The size of your plane depends on the size of you. A large jointer (No.7 or 8) is heavy, so if you are small, it will be tiresome to use. A jack can be used to shoot and joint edges, just be more careful, and use your straightedge more frequently. I am not a tall person, and not a muscle-man, so I prefer my no.5 and my wooden try planes over my cast iron No.7. Japanese carpenters have no jointer planes at all, but that have not kept them from building pagodas 30 metres high.

By,

János


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## János (7 Jan 2011)

Surprise: a number eight and a parenthesis turned into an emoticon automatically…


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## markh (7 Jan 2011)

Being somewhere between a real man and a delicate lady :wink: , a No.7 should suit me fine!

That Cliffy is still batting her eyelids at me........................


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## mtr1 (7 Jan 2011)

I bought a no4 and a low angle block(from the same stable) recently, and the no 4 is dung(OK for site). The block has been all right so far though.


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## uk woodman (8 Jan 2011)

Quangsheng bench planes are very good, I dont just mean good value, they are excellent in their own right and not as expensive as the Clifton planes, from workshopheaven The Q/S V4 planes bedrock pattern are really good, I don't think they do a number 7 though, still a good 6 is better than a bad 7.


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## Vann (8 Jan 2011)

markh":3mwl9xcf said:


> That Cliffy is still batting her eyelids at me........................



Go on man, buy the Cliffie No.7. 

Beautiful O1 steel in the iron. I'm the proud owner of a No.3 and a No.4.5, and a 2" iron to go into a Record 04. Oh, and a Clifton 2-piece cap-iron for my Record 08.

Cheers (and a bit of grease for the slope...), Vann.


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## lanemaux (8 Jan 2011)

Mark , I know that buying new is great these days if buying high end. I have also heard nice things about the Quangsheng line. For me though , the fun is in the finding and fettling. By all means get something nice to work with from manufacturer of your choice. But do keep an eye out for fixer-uppers later ,as having a spare of any size to reach for when the edge starts to go off of your primary user is a good thing too. Number 7's and 8's are less common than the jacks and smoothers but still findable. And besides , it is fun to use something you have breathed life back into in it's own right. My own number 7 was a bit of a horror show when it arrived from an E-bay seller in Alberta, not altogether flat , rust ,etc. , and yet it now enjoys pride of place on the plane shelf. It took work and sweat as well as fair amount of coarse abrasives on granite backing but all is sorted now , and I could not be happier with it.


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## ali27 (8 Jan 2011)

The QS planes are nice, but you don't get a guaranteed
flatness tolerance which you do get when you but LV, Clifton or LN.

No real specifications for tolerances so it's a gamble for people
that do not have the skills to tune a plane.

LV,Clifton and LN are flat within 3 thou I believe.

For those that have precision tools and know how to tune 
a plane, the QS can be made to work as good and even better
than a LN, Clifton out of the box with a couple of hours of tuning.

Ali


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## tomatwark (8 Jan 2011)

I have seen some of the newer record planes when apprentices have bought them at firms I have worked for and they are shocking alot worse than the stanley ones which are not too good either.

I had a 3, 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 when I was an apprentice in the 80's and have replaced them with older ones over the years and although I had a bit of fettling to do the difference between them was huge.

If you are buying a second hand one try to get one that was made before the 70's and you should have no probs providing you are prepared to tidy it up.

Tom


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## Modernist (8 Jan 2011)

That's a 3 thou feeler unable to get even close to getting under my Quangsheng No 6 (I'd snapped the 1.5 but I doubt if that would have made it either.


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## Fromey (8 Jan 2011)

I understand the logic of choosing a plane that one can use comfortably and with adequate control. I also understand that technically you could flatten any length of wood with a No. 1 plane, a straight edge and enough time and patience.

However, I wonder if the lengths (no. 6, 7 or 8) were chosen by the Wise Old Ones for some other reason, namely these are the lengths found to most effectively flatten wood that is at least such-and-such long. Would it make sense that if you had a plane that was longer than the piece of work you're working on, the plane sole would always be in register with the wood and so be the most efficient way to flatten it?

Back on topic, I can vouch for the QS planes being very flat and square as determine by eye using a straight edge and square. Also, see Matthew's latest video of a QS No. 6;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXUVzviBjCs

Granted, he has a vested interest in this, but I trust him completely.


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## ali27 (8 Jan 2011)

Modernist":2wscj76w said:


> That's a 3 thou feeler unable to get even close to getting under my Quangsheng No 6 (I'd snapped the 1.5 but I doubt if that would have made it either.



Looks good! I have the same plane(with those painted handles :?: ). The sole
was nice flat in the beginning, but did slightly change after a few months
of use. Offtopic, the handles should be made a a bit larger IMHO. I don't
have big hands, but still find the handles small.

For beginners though, the fact that there is no guarantueed tolerances with the
QS planes(at least I don't know of them), the LV,Clifton and LN with their
guarantueed flatness might be a better choice. 

BUT these are at least twice as expensive and almost 3 times with the LN
compared to the QS.

A beginner will probably read on internet about flattening the sole with
floatglass and try this. Results will probably be even worse.

Offtopic again:I wish these(all brands) planes would be made completely out of stainless steel. I just hate the rust.

Ali


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## Alf (8 Jan 2011)

It occurs to me we've failed to lob the Veritas #6 into the jointer discussion - which has the body of an elegant lady's #6, but the effective flattening ability of a man-sized #7, owing to the position of the mouth being further back. So now I've lobbed it in.


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## Modernist (8 Jan 2011)

Well lobbed Alf. As you know I am a great fan of Veritas and have several examples in the armoury but I just don't like the looks of the bench plane range with that strange triangular lever cap. I've never tried the No 6 but it appears to have the same problem as the Quangsheng in that you cannot reach the adjuster whilst planing.


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## markh (8 Jan 2011)

Ok I give in! I have now fallen off the cliff (no pun intended) and will be off to workshop heaven for the Clifton. 

You can all breath out slowly and wait for the new arrival......


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## Alf (8 Jan 2011)

Modernist":2mklctef said:


> Well lobbed Alf. As you know I am a great fan of Veritas and have several examples in the armoury but I just don't like the looks of the bench plane range with that strange triangular lever cap. I've never tried the No 6 but it appears to have the same problem as the Quangsheng in that you cannot reach the adjuster whilst planing.


Yes, I have problems getting past their looks too, but I just refreshed my memory of when I reviewed them and despite that I really liked their #6. I'd forgotten. But you're right, the Norris style adjuster on them is not adjustable on the fly. Interesting you should say that about the Quangsheng though; I hadn't realised the rear tote was set so far back on the #6.

Mark, well thank goodness you haven't left us with a cliffhanger...


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## Modernist (8 Jan 2011)

Alf":1zwnfqze said:


> the Norris style adjuster on them is not adjustable on the fly. Interesting you should say that about the Quangsheng though; I hadn't realised the rear tote was set so far back on the #6.



I think it is more of a problem than just the inconvenience of adjustment on the QS. I find the tote position upsets the handling of the plane in use as the point of effort is too far behind the blade and this alters the "feel" of the operation. I have no idea why they scored this own goal since there were 100's of years history to refer to. I did moan about this to Matthew after I bought it but it was new to him at that time. As ever I suppose most people might not find this a problem but I do. I also suspect it may be heavier than my 1946 Stanley No 7 (bought as a wedding present for my Dad by my Mum - true love or what?)- I'll check.


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## Vann (8 Jan 2011)

markh":1gu8e4a8 said:


> Ok I give in! I have now fallen off the cliff (no pun intended) and will be off to workshop heaven for the Clifton.


Well done that man!




markh":1gu8e4a8 said:


> You can all breath out slowly and wait for the new arrival......


Now if you need a hand to change its nappies, or feed it in the middle of the night, I'd luv to come round and help out (only I'm a bit far away...)

Cheers, Vann.


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## Trizza (9 Jan 2011)

markh":3ifn2du2 said:


> Ok I give in! I have now fallen off the cliff (no pun intended) and will be off to workshop heaven for the Clifton.


You certainly won't regret buying from Workshop Heaven - Matthew is a real upstanding bloke, he gives fantastic service! Looking forward to some gloat pictures


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## jimi43 (9 Jan 2011)

markh":2l6wc2qm said:


> Ok I give in! I have now fallen off the cliff (no pun intended) and will be off to workshop heaven for the Clifton.
> 
> You can all breath out slowly and wait for the new arrival......



Best example of going from the ridiculous to the sublime I have ever seen!

You will never regret it!

A nice secondhand Record 5 1/2 will be a good other choice now you are probably out of squids on the Cliffie!

Jim


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## warrenr (9 Jan 2011)

I have bought quite a number of old Record and Stanley planes on e-bay including a couple of 7s and an 8. 

It is my experience that the jointer planes come in a far better condition than smoothers and jacks possibly because they were more likely to be owned by serious woodworkers and treasured. After all they cost the equivalent of todays Clifton and L-N planes in their day. They also are more likely to have been flattened - mine have required certainly no more effort than their smaller cousins on the float glass and abrasives. However, I have had one dud No.6. 

I look principally for Records with the pre-war characteristics of a blade with a straight top and angled sides (google "record hand planes dating").

I like an earlier response enjoy the refurbishing process on a good find.

All the best
Richard


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## bugbear (10 Jan 2011)

warrenr":3pkz6tfz said:


> It is my experience that the jointer planes come in a far better condition than smoothers and jacks possibly because they were more likely to be owned by serious woodworkers and treasured.



I think they're simply used less, and only for a "precision" process. The only two planes that get "hard yakka" are the #4 and #5. Since these are the commonest, it's easy to assume that hard use is the norm.

To ramble on a little, since moulding plane blades are a pain to sharpen, worker were always careful to remove as much waste as possible (with ploughs and rebates) prior to final use of the moulder. Further, since it's common to have a range of moulding planes, any individual moulding plane is only used for a small proportion of the time.

The upshot of this is that wear on moulding planes occurs very slowly, and it's surprisingly common to find 18th c moulding planes in good condition - good enough that you'd never guess their age from their condition.

BugBear


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## markh (21 Jan 2011)

It's arrived!

What a difference - you guys were spot on. The Cilfton is on a different planet to Irwin Record. Even the box is a bit special. As for the plane, just beautiful. Everything is high quality, well finished and looks like it will be handed down a few generations and still look fantastic. 

I have yet to try it out ( too much going on at the moment!) but I will report back with photos etc when I get time. 

No regrets so far - thanks for the final shove in the right direction!


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## jimi43 (21 Jan 2011)

markh":10hnq0m9 said:


> It's arrived!
> 
> What a difference - you guys were spot on. The Cilfton is on a different planet to Irwin Record. Even the box is a bit special. As for the plane, just beautiful. Everything is high quality, well finished and looks like it will be handed down a few generations and still look fantastic.
> 
> ...



Now you KNOW that it ain't arrived until we get the pictures....so come on....we're waiting anxiously! :mrgreen: 

It is so nice to watch the reaction when people realise the difference...which must be huge if you started with an Irwin!

Use it in happiness...it will serve you well.

Now all you need is a No.7....a No.6....one of them Anniversary ones...a spokeshave...and a....... 8) 

Jim


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## markh (31 Jan 2011)

At last, some pictures for those of you who are still hanging on.........

It's a thing of beauty and I am grateful to you all for showing me the way!









Even opening the parcel is an experience on its own - just look at the box! The whole product exudes quality and the attention to detail is phenomenal. Every part is made of top quality materials and beautifully hand finished. It is heavy duty - the plane iron is thicker than normal, there is no backlash in the adjuster, the enamelling is immaculate..... I could go on but some of at the back are starting to yawn.

You could say I like it.

Oh, and it cuts too...... like no other plane I have had the pleasure of using. I thought it could not be worth paying nearly 3 times the price of an Irwin Record. I was wrong on all counts and will now retire to the workshop for 50 lashes.

The only trouble is, buying the Clifton No.7 was far too easy. All I did was type some numbers into my computer and I nice man knocked on my door a few days later with a very heavy box. Might just take a look at the No.5. I said LOOK. I don't have to buy it..............


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## Trizza (31 Jan 2011)

Go on - its looking at you funny! Its daring you to click "Add to cart" - you know it is!


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## jimi43 (31 Jan 2011)

Oh dear...what HAVE we done....pushing you from the nursery slopes to the BLACK RUN in one shove! :mrgreen: 

You do realise that forums are not accepted by a court of law as co-respondents in divorces you know! :wink: 

Seriously...that is so beauiful and I can actually feel the pride though your words oozing out of the screen!

Why not make it a "collective present event" from all your friends and relatives each birthday and Christmas?

If you now don't have any you can always treat yourself!

NOW....get ye out unto the yonder shed and make some fine shavings... :mrgreen: =D> 

Hearty congratulations!

Jim


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## Alf (31 Jan 2011)

This is no good; where are the shavings?! Enough with the lovely box, and on with the whispy shavings. :wink: 

Lovely plane; glad you're so pleased with it. Would have been a bit embarrassing if you hadn't been after the big build up. Oh, and welcome to The Slope. It's all downhill from here...


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## mickthetree (31 Jan 2011)

Hi Mark

Dunstable hey?? Just round the corner from me in Tring  

They really are a great piece of engineering aren't they!

Yes, lets see some shavings!!


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## dunbarhamlin (31 Jan 2011)

Fabulous tool. It took me months of vacillating before I pulled the trigger on my first plane - a Clifton No.7 - and remember well recieving it and stripping it down (I made notes - was terrified I wouldn't be able to put it back together hehe.) It is still my most used plane.
Now unfortunately I can't buy another. I have no need of a second No.3, 4, 5...oops - when you've mastered the black slopes, the Cresta Run awaits. The sled comes in a fetching British Racing Green.
Enjoy.


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