# I'm done with the For Sale section of the site



## Bodgers (25 Jan 2018)

So I listed a TS extension for a fixed price, supplying a photo like an obedient poster.

After I got a message asking me about postage, I posted a reply (in case anyone thought it was sold after that question) saying it is still for sale and you can make me an offer.

And then some poster (that needs better things to do with their time) reported my post for non compliance with the selling rules. Thread removed. Thanks! 

Which begs the question - isn't that what normally happens in any of the sale posts on the forum i.e. people follow up with an offer? It's like the normal eb and flow of. Sale.

When you lay on top of that the daft rules about not even posting a link to an auction you have a bit of a joke to be honest.

Things need to change. Won't be using it again until they do.



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## Noel (26 Jan 2018)

Bodgers":1sfojkmr said:


> So I listed a TS extension for a fixed price, supplying a photo like an obedient poster.
> 
> After I got a message asking me about postage, I posted a reply (in case anyone thought it was sold after that question) saying it is still for sale and you can make me an offer.
> 
> ...



Rules are there for _all_ members to benefit from, dead easy to understand and the board works well under the rules. 
There'll be no changes and up to you what you do or don't do.

Thanks.


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## MattRoberts (26 Jan 2018)

And exactly what rule was broken? I see no infraction by clarifying that an item is still for sale...


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## Droogs (26 Jan 2018)

fixed price converted to open to offers - rules say no


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## Noel (26 Jan 2018)

I have the receipts.......... (If you excuse the Americanism )



> Still for sale, make me an offer before it goes on the auction site, the name of which cannot be uttered on this hallowed forum...


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## ColeyS1 (26 Jan 2018)

Mentioning if it doesn't sell you'll put it on the auction site - rules say no.

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## Walney Col (26 Jan 2018)

Noel":1wry1qyy said:


> *snip* dead easy to understand and the board works well under the rules.
> There'll be no changes and up to you what you do or don't do.
> 
> Thanks.


Of course that's the crux of the matter right there isn't it, it's only "easy to understand and working well" from the moderators point of view. Most others I suspect would argue differently.

Col.


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## Noel (27 Jan 2018)

Walney Col":30urazgv said:


> Noel":30urazgv said:
> 
> 
> > *snip* dead easy to understand and the board works well under the rules.
> ...



Very Trumpian Col. So, forgetting "most others", what's your issue with the board? 
It's simple enough, these are the main guidelines, especially in relation to this particular thread-
#Fixed price so no auction type sales
#Sale cannot be advertised elsewhere 
#No free advertising for other sites, implied or otherwise

That's about it, sure various other little bits and pieces to cover all the oddities that sometimes pop up but it's mostly showing respect for a free service amongst like minded people. Certainly there has be a good balance between members using the board and those that help to run it and I think we've achieved that. Always willing to hear suggestions and opinion.


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## Droogs (27 Jan 2018)

Hi Noel
Though I agree with the rules, I feel on this occasion they may have been applied a little too literally rather than in the spirit. I think Naz was giving people here a prefered option of first refusal so to speak and merely meant that the item was still for sale and used the "make me an offer" as a colloqial turn of phrase and not as a statement of intent to auction it here. 

Not trying to stir things up just passing on my take on events, especially as Naz has been a positive forum member as far as I am aware.

rgds


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## CHJ (27 Jan 2018)

Droogs":1b2px9vq said:


> Hi Noel
> Though I agree with the rules, I feel on this occasion they may have been applied a little too literally rather than in the spirit. I think Naz was giving people here a prefered option of first refusal so to speak and merely meant that the item was still for sale and used the "make me an offer" as a colloqial turn of phrase and not as a statement of intent to auction it here.
> 
> Not trying to stir things up just passing on my take on events, especially as Naz has been a positive forum member as far as I am aware.
> ...



*Droogs* I think you had better check your facts and read the two threads that you are mixing up.


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## rafezetter (27 Jan 2018)

Hmm - while I agree there are rules to be followed - would it have been such a hardship to just send Bodgers a PM and alter his post until he can ammend it rather than just delete it outright?

Seems incredibly heavy handed, more on the order of forums run by gaming companies that will harbour no negative comments (or rutlands it seems) and just delete everythign that's even vaguely disparaging.

There's no need to be quite that draconian about running the forum - *ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT OTHER "FOR SALE" POSTS HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO STAND WITHOUT PHOTOS OR SET PRICE FOR DAYS ON OCCASION BEFORE THEY GET AMMENDED.* (emphasis not shouting)

If we all agree that the "mistake" was unintentional, can it be re-posted and ammeded accordingly?

May I gently suggest Noel and other moderators give a little slack for people posting in the "for sale" section? Bearing in mind that they are doing it HERE, and usually at a price LESS THAN THEY WOULD GET ELSEWHERE; and yet instead of HELPING a forum member pass on a tool or other item at a discount, you hammer him for a mild infraction of a rule that could have been altered in seconds. 

Yes there are rules, and they are clearly laid out, but lets be honest, we are mostly all men here, just how often do _you_ "read the instructions" ?

This is meant to be a forum of friendly discussion (most of the time) not 1984.

PS - whomever reported his post - get a life. Seriously. It was clearly not a mod otherwise it would have been dealt with, so it's one of you lot. Try devoting some of that "whaaa he's not adhering to the rules!!!" energy into making your local area of society a better place instead of on this forum, you might think you're doing it to "help the mods" but it just makes you a small minded, inflexible person.

PPS - some examples of "the rules" being broken, but the posts are still "live" and untouched.

legacy-ornamental-mill-lathe-t110288.html

wooden-truck-wheels-and-axles-to-suit-t110273.html

rutlands-t-track-t110082.html

free-209m-x-hodgson-flexistrip-butyl-glazing-strip-tape-t109920.html

festool-mft3-little-used-t109966.html

wadkin-bursgreen-10-ags-saw-chip-deflector-t109717.html

That's just the first 3 pages of 9 (not including the hundreds of deleted pages in that section), shall I go on? Or will you take the point that perhaps excessive moderation has been used with Bodgers post yet applied NONE to others; each of those posts do NOT HAVE a "for sale posts are required to have a picture" message from a moderator ANYWHERE TO BE SEEN.

From the "rules" sticky:

"10 –Images.
Supporting images should be provided with the opening post. Do not make a post and wait to see if there is interest before offering to post images. *Either post all together or not at all.*

Either enforce a rule or don't but "when it suits" is NOT AN OPTION. 



Noel":ffc07u05 said:


> Rules are there for _all_ members to benefit from {snip} *There'll be no changes* and up to you what you do or don't do.Thanks.



You might want to rethink that statement in light of the above evidence

My personal belief is that the moderator team has been observed showing bias, and that's never a good thing on a forum.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jan 2018)

It does say "should be" not "must be". There's little point in bothering to post a picture of e.g. a brand new item that everone knows. (As the T track ad, e.g.).


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## Noel (27 Jan 2018)

rafezetter":26nsel6a said:


> Hmm - while I agree there are rules to be followed - would it have been such a hardship to just send Bodgers a PM and alter his post until he can ammend it rather than just delete it outright?
> 
> *No, rules are clear and mods have better things to do than enter into what can often be extensive PM discussions about such things.
> *
> ...




All the best.


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## rafezetter (27 Jan 2018)

Ordinarily Phil I'd agree it's a subtle semantic difference and can be seen either way, but then I've also seen moderators reminding pictures are required, so again, there's disparity which needs to be addressed and the whole thing re-examined for clarity.

We all understand and accept that people who post in "for sale" are quite probably taking a financial loss to do so, so excessive moderation really isn't in that spirit and might even scare some lurkers away.

In this instance the item being sold was HALF the cost from axminster, HALF. The fact there were no takers was irrelevant, if you can't cut a member some slack under those conditions and just ask him to ammend his post, what hope is there?


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## CHJ (27 Jan 2018)

rafezetter":2ok7to1v said:


> .......
> My personal belief is that the moderator team has been observed showing bias, and that's never a good thing on a forum.



You are entitled to your belief, but you have:-
No knowlege of what moderator actions are recorded in the Logs.
No knowledge of what moderator threads exist to discuss on-going thread reports etc.
No knowledge of the number of Posts that are amended to give members the benifit of the doubt.
No knowlege of the number of Pm's with Posters regarding infractions.
No knowledge of which members choose to go public with their grivences before a moderator has time to edit a post and reinstate a thread. etc. 

You think I personaly am biased, of course I am, I have an opinion and have to make a dozen or more judgment calls every day as I suspect the other mods do, I'm afraid the forum has to put up with our falability or else have no moderation at all.


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## rafezetter (27 Jan 2018)

*sigh* - see what happens? 

you question a mod and they jump on you.

I've BEEN a moderator, for YEARS on several gaming forums - you should try that if you think this one is hard work where all the members are adults. I know the score. I also know that personal bais alters how a moderator can read or interpret a post, deliberate or subconscious.

*I did not accuse moderators here of deleting negative posts* I did however say that the heavyhandedness smacked of that same mentality - which is different - I can prove it - I kept a copy of the "offending post", I always do when I think there's a risk of moderation.

CHJ, you said I don't have any knowldge of PM's to posters regarding infractions, here, no. But taking that as a given, why does Noel the other moderator say: "*No, rules are clear and mods have better things to do than enter into what can often be extensive PM discussions about such things*."

The flavor of that text is "I didn't want to send him a PM in case it became a drawn out discussion, and I don't have time for that". My answer to that would be don't be a moderator if you can't spare the time to do it properly. (and lets ignore the bit about you spending the time to write answers to all of my comments in my long post defending or otherwise altering it to suit.)

When I moderate I PM, show them their mistake, where to check that it's a mistake on their part, and tell them to ammend it or it'll be deleted, their choice. I'm covered, he's been told - there's ZERO ROOM for discussion, it's done.

It's two lines and gets the point across. I'm failing to see why this became such an issue. If Bodgers had been sent such a message, he would have no cause to post as he did and start this furore.

Noel your "receipts" post proves nothing because that websites name appears in the forum all the time.

search...... 28021 times to be precise.

in the "for sale" section 9 times - Bodgers being one - 2 moderator threads and 6 other separate forum members mentioning it in thier posts in that section - Including one that follows almost the exact same format as Bodgers' yet there it is - large as life, not moderated or deleted.

Bodgers did not set a precedent but paid the price, and THAT is what gets me so steamed; the disparity.

One last thing just so we are clear - this isn't personal - I've dealt with fellow moderators on the sites I'm involved with the same way, I've seen some truly lopsided bias from quite a few over the years, and I've taken them to task as much as I've said it here.

I'm not here to be popular - I'm quite un-popular if evidence is to be beleived - but right or wrong I'll take a stand and I'll speak my mind nonetheless if I think there's something that needs to be said.

* Moderators can forever alter the flavor of a forum with actions sowing bad seeds, and I deeply wish that to not happen here.*

It's clearly annoyed Bodgers and it could have been avoided.


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## MrTeroo (27 Jan 2018)

The NazNomad situation could also have been easily avoided. A longstanding member has now left the forum it seems because of rude 'my way or the highway' moderating

come on mods, stop circling the wagons and listen a bit more please?


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## RogerS (27 Jan 2018)

Oh, c'mon, guys. We've all got better things to do.

Let's leave things at that and move on.


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## Noel (27 Jan 2018)

rafezetter":2lk4gqa9 said:


> *sigh* - see what happens?
> 
> you question a mod and they jump on you.
> 
> ...



You've missed the point entirely and seem to not understand any of the points I've made. But no worries.


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## Noel (27 Jan 2018)

MrTeroo":2g29jjj1 said:


> The NazNomad situation could also have been easily avoided. A longstanding member has now left the forum it seems because of rude 'my way or the highway' moderating
> 
> come on mods, stop circling the wagons and listen a bit more please?



Any member indulging in racism, bigotry or sectarianism of any nature will be sanctioned.


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## Noel (27 Jan 2018)

RogerS":5sk3b8hq said:


> Oh, c'mon, guys. We've all got better things to do.
> 
> Let's leave things at that and move on.



Roger, best suggestion you've made since 1994... : )

In all seriousness, good idea.


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## MrTeroo (27 Jan 2018)

Noel":2gp2w7nx said:


> MrTeroo":2gp2w7nx said:
> 
> 
> > The NazNomad situation could also have been easily avoided. A longstanding member has now left the forum it seems because of rude 'my way or the highway' moderating
> ...



Not the whole story though is it?

NazNomad had a post removed and obviously wasn't notified, leading him to ask why.

Nev informed him that a comment he made that was ok in the 70's was not ok now, describing it as _casual racism_

NazNomad replied: Seriously? *sigh*

To which Nev responded that if Naz didn't like it he could - "spew your racist bile elsewhere"

It went from casual racism from the 70's to racist bile in a heartbeat.

NazNomad then requested that his content be removed.

That was heavy handed and hysterical moderating in my opinion.

NazNomad was spoken to as though he was the leader of the local KKK clan.

Your attempt to gloss over this and the tone of you response to rafezeteer, Noel, is arrogant to say the least.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jan 2018)

I like the moderators...........
but I always imagine this scene when it comes to mod discussions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URTj4naIdAs

Now, take my case. They hung me up here five years ago. Every night, they take me down for twenty minutes, then they hang me up again, which I regard as very fair, in view of what I done, and, if nothing else, it's taught me to respect the Moderators, and it's taught me... that you'll never get anywhere in this life, unless you're prepared to do a fair day's work for a fair day's pay!


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## ColeyS1 (27 Jan 2018)

I'm a fan of Nazs work, he's one of my favourite posters. When I saw his post I was quite shocked he came out with that. I didn't report it cause I like the bloke but was surprised it stayed up as long as it did. I'll say it again, I really like the bloke but i thought his comment was ridiculous for a public forum viewed by many. It seemed out of character compared with his normal good sense of humour. I don't know what other option there could have been as soon as a mod were to see it. That's why I can understand Nevs reaction- Course it's been deleted, what other choice was there ! 

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## rafezetter (27 Jan 2018)

doctor Bob":h2zt1ry5 said:


> I like the moderators...........
> but I always imagine this scene when it comes to mod discussions
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URTj4naIdAs
> ...




Hahaha - how very strange - I was only referring to that particular LoB scene a week ago on a different forum about bias from moderators shown towards "fanboys" of that particular game allowing them to disparage, sometimes quite harshly those who would criticize the game; all the while heavily moderating or outright deleting any posts that criticise the game and the fanboys defending it.

(I'm not saying that happening here, at all, I'm just remarking on the coincedence.)


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## rafezetter (27 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":2ndzb4ht said:


> I'm a fan of Nazs work, he's one of my favourite posters. When I saw his post I was quite shocked he came out with that. I didn't report it cause I like the bloke but was surprised it stayed up as long as it did. I'll say it again, I really like the bloke but i thought his comment was ridiculous for a public forum viewed by many. It seemed out of character compared with his normal good sense of humour. I don't know what other option there could have been as soon as a mod were to see it. That's why I can understand Nevs reaction- Course it's been deleted, what other choice was there !



There was none for sure, but Naz should have been notified - or if he was - notified in a way that left no room for ambiguous interpretation.

I know some people have issues with the PC crowd, but Naz isn't an silly person he must have known it was, what it was.

Even my 72 yr old father does, because he's started to add "I'm not allowed to say that" - but only after #-o I doubt there's enough time to make him stop altogether.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Jan 2018)

My dad's the same. He's 80 now and it's only been the last 10 or so years he's started to reel it in a bit. I was brought up listening to Kevin bloody Wilson so I've heard much worse over the years ! Just don't expect to see it in black and white with my morning cereal. Lol 

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## Droogs (27 Jan 2018)

My bad I meant Rogers, been up a long time when I typed it sorry


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## MrTeroo (27 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":119dvnss said:


> Course it's been deleted, what other choice was there !
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



I agree. Perfectly right that it was deleted, but it could have been handled a lot better. Especially considering NazNomad is a longstanding contributor.


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## RogerS (27 Jan 2018)

Droogs":1h7iexqu said:


> My bad I meant Rogers, been up a long time when I typed it sorry



Eh, what ? What have I done now ? :shock:


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## ColeyS1 (27 Jan 2018)

Yeah that Roger bloke ! I've absolutely no idea either ha

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## ColeyS1 (27 Jan 2018)

MrTeroo":2dw0eljj said:


> ColeyS1":2dw0eljj said:
> 
> 
> > Course it's been deleted, what other choice was there !
> ...


I think that's probably why he didn't get banned for a few days tbh !

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## nev (27 Jan 2018)

MrTeroo":fve0ozai said:


> Noel":fve0ozai said:
> 
> 
> > MrTeroo":fve0ozai said:
> ...



I will reply only once on this matter Mr. Teroo, as it has nothing to do with this thread and you have either misread or misunderstood my comments which are still available in the original thread, unedited, and in which can be seen that I did not say that they were acceptable in the 70's!

This is not an apology Naz was in the wrong.

I deleted an obviously racist and derogatory post. *That would have been the end of it.* 

The offender would obviously realise that they had overstepped the acceptability line as there was no other reason to remove the post.

Instead the offender baits the moderators with the question 'why was my post deleted?'

Just in case the offender really didn't realise that his comments were unacceptable, I replied ...

'Because 70's slang terms for non WASP's is not tolerated.'
That is not saying that it was acceptable then or that it is was casual racism. It was stating the racism is not tolerated. 

I most definitely did not say ..

"Nev informed him that a comment he made that was ok in the 70's was not ok now, describing it as casual racism"

anyway..

*That would have been the end of it.*

Then we get more baiting - 

'Seriously? *sigh*'

So I then reply..
'And quite frankly if you think casual racism is acceptable then maybe you should spew it elsewhere.' (no bile mentioned!)

*That would have been the end of it.*

If at this point the offender does not accept that his comments are not acceptable in any society let alone on a public forum with rules that do not allow such comments, then if they want to go I'll be more than happy to help.

I did not at any point threaten Naz with removal from the forum. Everything is there in the original post.

Naz then threw his toys out. His choice. I obliged.

End of.

Just because you enjoy someones work or 'banter' is no reason to accept racist comment from anyone.


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## rafezetter (27 Jan 2018)

Having just checked my emails I have been given some information that changes my perception of what occured with Bodgers.

Apparently he was given every opportunity, argued it, argued some more and then got the hump before the sales thread could be re-instated minus the "give me offers" post, which would have happened if he'd waited 10 minutes more.

So I'd like to publicly and openly, and *unreservedly* apologise to the mod(s) for grabbing the wrong end of the stick, and frantically waving it about yelling "look at this !" 

or (as monty Python seems to fit so many things) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ukak8P2vY


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## El Barto (27 Jan 2018)

Not wishing to get drawn into this discussion too much and I wasn’t aware of the Naz thing, but respect to Nev for dealing with it. It’s too easy to overlook racism/bigotry etc when you like the person doing it. But actually, no, f*ck that person because that kind of behaviour has no place in society.

So thanks for keeping this place inclusive and hate free Nev.


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## andys wood shed (27 Jan 2018)

doctor Bob":2rdeic4k said:


> Now, take my case. They hung me up here five years ago. Every night, they take me down for twenty minutes, then they hang me up again, which I regard as very fair, in view of what I done, and, if nothing else, it's taught me to respect the Moderators, and it's taught me... that you'll never get anywhere in this life, unless you're prepared to do a fair day's work for a fair day's pay!



I remember those entertaining times with Brad Nailer :lol:


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## doctor Bob (28 Jan 2018)

andys wood shed":3p02q0xu said:


> doctor Bob":3p02q0xu said:
> 
> 
> > Now, take my case. They hung me up here five years ago. Every night, they take me down for twenty minutes, then they hang me up again, which I regard as very fair, in view of what I done, and, if nothing else, it's taught me to respect the Moderators, and it's taught me... that you'll never get anywhere in this life, unless you're prepared to do a fair day's work for a fair day's pay!
> ...



LOL....... good old days, I've had a few name changes since then, few fresh starts etc, but it was all done in the best possible taste back then, more mickey taking than the aggression aimed at mods now, think Doug is wrapped up in golf these days, I think he's doing alright, he had an extension and was considering an inside toilet, very upmarket for a Northerner.


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## RogerS (28 Jan 2018)

doctor Bob":2rfefg84 said:


> ..... very upmarket for a Northerner.



Manchester's not the North ! It's in the Midlands :lol:


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## Bodgers (28 Jan 2018)

rafezetter":2bpjljw9 said:


> Having just checked my emails I have been given some information that changes my perception of what occured with Bodgers.
> 
> Apparently he was given every opportunity, argued it, argued some more and then got the hump before the sales thread could be re-instated minus the "give me offers" post, which would have happened if he'd waited 10 minutes more.
> 
> ...



Well this thread took a left turn didn't it?

I didn't check back in on it after I posted, and then this...

Just to reply to this post. I'm not sure 'given every opportunity' is fair.

Firstly, what happened was heavy handed. My initial post for the thread was fine. Someone then posted to ask for further details on postage. Nothing went further. So I added a post that clarified that it was still for sale and that someone should offer me a deal before I list it 'elsewhere'. 

So two points:

1. In a lot of for sale threads people reply and state an offer. This is not an offence, and goes on all the time. It is a normal part of the process. My listing had a fixed price, in a follow up post I basically stated what goes on elsewhere without issue. High crime?

2. My statement to say that I would list it elsewhere was phrased in the future conditional sense. I had not currently listed it on an auction site. It was a statement of possible future intent, if I couldn't sell it here. So no rules were broken.

I was not given every opportunity.

The thread was removed without first giving me an opportunity to fix what was wrong.

When it was taken down I was told it was for a breach of the rules, and when I protested, a clarification was given that it was not for the comments about the auction site, it was for the offers comment - despite the fact the listing was still at a FIXED PRICE. I protested that by saying the above and that the rules needed to change as offers on the fixed price were part of the normal selling/buying process.

I heard nothing back, the listing wasn't reinstated, so I posted this thread.

Like I say, I'm done with the selling section, so this is all academic. The rules need a rethink to allow the normal buying/selling process to happen. Users of the site should be listened to. That is all.


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## Lons (29 Jan 2018)

doctor Bob":2m6p6m8w said:


> considering an inside toilet, very upmarket for a Northerner.



Cheeky sod. :lol: :lol:


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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

Bodgers":2v55b939 said:


> rafezetter":2v55b939 said:
> 
> 
> > Having just checked my emails I have been given some information that changes my perception of what occured with Bodgers.
> ...


What about rule 8.5 ? -"Furthermore members should not mention that their item/s will be listed for sale on such sites in the event that their items fail to sell here."

I might post forsale a used and abused no4 stanley for £750.....but I'm open to offers !! Lol

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## Phil Pascoe (29 Jan 2018)

Surely it's academic? If I saw something expensive that I was interested in, I'd PM an offer whether or not the ad said the seller was open to offers. If you don't ask, you don't get.


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## Lons (29 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":3qjvofde said:


> What about rule 8.5 ? -"Furthermore members should not mention that their item/s will be listed for sale on such sites in the event that their items fail to sell here."



I fail to understand the need for that rule. OK lisiting elsewhere at the same time and promoting that but saying you would if it doesn't sell here - what's wrong with that? :? 

However rules are rules and we agree to them when we join the forum so it's up to us to comply or not and face the consequences. I do hope the mods listen to members however and if there's enough weight of opinion maybe change terms that don't make sense. It's a shame to alienate members who have committed a minor infringement as in this case but otherwise contribute valuable help and information on the forum for the benefit of the rest of us.

Rules are like the small print on documents, we know we should read and digest them but I wonder how many of us actually do that.  I'm not saying if that includes me #-o 

Bob


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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

It creates a false sense of urgency. "if you don't buy it, you'll miss out and I'll stick it on ebay." It's unnecessary. If I want it I'll buy it, no pressure required.

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## Lons (29 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":2ryy8xew said:


> It creates a false sense of urgency. "if you don't buy it, you'll miss out and I'll stick it on ebay." It's unnecessary. If I want it I'll buy it, no pressure required.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


I see your point.

Would make absolutely no difference to me though or I think any sensible potential buyer so doubt that is important. If there's pressure it's there already because you have all these forum members who might nip in before you get a chance.

It's happened to me, have you not seen something of interest only to note someone's beaten you to it? #-o 

cheers
Bob


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## Droogs (29 Jan 2018)

I have noticed many members will say that they will draw a name if they get several interested parties after the kit. I feel this is most fair and should i sell anything, I would like to think i would give all forum members a chance to see the ad and then after a reasonable time (say 3 days) draw lots and let lady luck see who gets it. Don't think anyone would consider that unfair.


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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

Does my mates girlfriend count ?


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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

If anyone's interested in my £750 no 4 plane (or make me an offer wink wink) pm me with your bid....I mean offer and I'll see how many more offers I get. I'll leave it a few days and see who's bidded....I mean offered the most. Just to be polite I'll message the second highest bidder....offerer to see if they'd like to increase their offer. In no way will I allow it to turn into an auction/bidding war ha.
Keep it simple ain't it. Fixed price, no confusion or bidding wars. If you've got the money its yours, if not someone else will take it if the price is right.

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## CHJ (29 Jan 2018)

A few points to regarding the rules. 
Nobody wants them, no matter how they are worded a background hum ensues about the semantics of their wording, but without them Moderating becomes impossible. The only alternate is to do as many private Bloggs do, subject every post to editorial approval.

The *For Sale * board is a FREE service costs of which have to be covered by advertising revenue just the same as the rest of UKW.

Very few FEE Charging market places contribute to the costs of UKW server space, why would UKW want to advertise for them for free. 

The 'Open to Offers', in effect an 'Auction to highest bidder' clause was put into place when the Market Place was instigated based of the number of times Moderators got embroiled in behind the scenes arguments associated with 'I saw it first' he 'Sold it to his mate instead' type PM's and e-mails that arose during the period when items were offered in open forum.

The Concurrent marketing clause, was because of similar behind the scenes (and occasionally public) arguments about first dibs and lack of courtesy in responding to members to say if an item had already been sold elsewhere that Mods had been expected to adjudicate on.


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## timber (29 Jan 2018)

CHJ":2sb55drd said:


> A few points to regarding the rules.
> Nobody wants them, no matter how they are worded a background hum ensues about the semantics of their wording, but without them Moderating becomes impossible. The only alternate is to do as many private Bloggs do, subject every post to editorial approval.
> 
> The *For Sale * board is a FREE service costs of which have to be covered by advertising revenue just the same as the rest of UKW.
> ...



When I first joined I did have a problem, so sent emails to Charlie who I thought owns this site However never got any replies !! .. So who does own it, and who makes, or can change the rules and at the same time make it a little easier for us non PC experts to put pics in the for sale section??
If I want to sell something I put the price for it in, but if I put any offers down, then if anyone want to pay more so much the better.
However at the end of the day Life is full of problems. Who would be a mod??
Timber


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## Bodgers (29 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":1hwws4d1 said:


> Bodgers":1hwws4d1 said:
> 
> 
> > rafezetter":1hwws4d1 said:
> ...


That's what goes on though.

A fixed listing price appears. People offer.

What's wrong with stating the obvious to encourage people? False sense of urgency? Why not?

The rules are daft, and OTT.



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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

Its against the rules which you agreed to when you signed up.
Pm me if you're interested in the plane. It's getting quite a bit of interest. Can't be bothered posting pictures. Highest 'offer' is is around £400 - could be yours for a few quid more wink wink nudge nudge. Not an auction, just helping you out. Lol 

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## Lons (29 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":28b02toy said:


> Pm me if you're interested in the plane. It's getting quite a bit of interest. Can't be bothered posting pictures. Highest 'offer' is is around £400 - could be yours for a few quid more wink wink nudge nudge. Not an auction, just helping you out. Lol


I think that's a sad way to view things Coley even though I know what you mean. There are members on here who have given items for free or sold them for less than they could likely achieve on an auction site.
I've done so a couple of times as I would much rather they went to someone who would make proper use of and take care of them than just off the auction who might even be buying to sell on at a profit. I've also been the grateful recipient.

Maybe I'm naive but I certainly wouldn't dream of doing what you suggest and would like to think that the majority of members wouldn't either just as my opinion of Bodgers post is that it was genuine and a minor infringement. The sad person in this is the one who reported it to the mods who then had to take action, that person needs to get a life!

cheers 
Bob

ps
Just as an aside, is it permissable to post a picture of an item and ask for opinions on it's value or is that seen as touting for a sale.
Genuine question, I have a number of old handsaws which I now realise I will never get around to restoring as well as several other items and absolutely no idea of worth. Some things are difficult to value via the web or ebay.


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## Bodgers (29 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":2zkv1l4d said:


> Its against the rules which you agreed to when you signed up.
> Pm me if you're interested in the plane. It's getting quite a bit of interest. Can't be bothered posting pictures. Highest 'offer' is is around £400 - could be yours for a few quid more wink wink nudge nudge. Not an auction, just helping you out. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


Nice.

I posted a picture.

It had a fixed price. 

Never mentioned any PMs.

I followed up with an an encouragement to do what happens in pretty much EVERY SINGLE for sale thread.

If this is your smart guy attitude it pretty much illustrates nicely how the site is managed and the fact that the rules need to change. The users of the site should have a voice.

Sounds like you are the person that reported the post to begin with...which says it all really


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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

Abiding by the rules isn't that difficult though. Many others seem to do it just fine ! It's only those who think they're above them that seem to whinge and moan when they don't have their own way. I understand it benefits others but it's also a huge perk for the seller who gets a targeted audience with absolute zero fee's. Is it really too much to ask to just stick to a few basic rules to continue having the privilege. 

If you want to use the forsale section, just stick to the rules. No point throwing your toys out the pram when you don't get your own way !!!

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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

Bodgers":3dpt6gvr said:


> Sounds like you are the person that reported the post to begin with...which says it all really



Care to elaborate? Me no understand...


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## lurker (29 Jan 2018)

We are not members here, we are guests.
We do what the owner and his bouncers tell us, or leave.
It costs us nothing to get the manifold benefits of this forum.
We therefore have no rights and are certainly not in a position to make demands on volunteers without whom this forum would not exist.
So it's no good getting at all indignant and protesting about what is fair.

This remains the best forum on the internet, lets get back to talking about woodwork and trying to wind up Jacob and BB


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## Bodgers (29 Jan 2018)

lurker":292yx6ra said:


> We are not members here, we are guests.
> We do what the owner and his bouncers tell us, or leave.
> It costs us nothing to get the manifold benefits of this forum.
> We therefore have no rights and are certainly not in a position to make demands on volunteers without whom this forum would not exist.
> ...


And without any "guests" the site is worthless. It is in the interests of the site for "guests" to be listened to, otherwise the site doesn't exist. 

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## Bodgers (29 Jan 2018)

ColeyS1":3h6pfd9y said:


> Abiding by the rules isn't that difficult though. Many others seem to do it just fine ! It's only those who think they're above them that seem to whinge and moan when they don't have their own way. I understand it benefits others but it's also a huge perk for the seller who gets a targeted audience with absolute zero fee's. Is it really too much to ask to just stick to a few basic rules to continue having the privilege.
> 
> If you want to use the forsale section, just stick to the rules. No point throwing your toys out the pram when you don't get your own way !!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


As stated my listing in the thread post obided by the rules 100%. 

A throw away follow up comment resulted in way over the top application of a rule that shouldn't exist and is frequently abused. My suggestion is that it shouldn't exist anyway.

Someone is suggesting that something should change - why not accept that?


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## lurker (29 Jan 2018)

Apparently I have been on this forum for over 10 years.
The rules have pretty much remained the same IIRC
So if it ain't broke.........

People come and people go, but the way this forum works continues.


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## Bodgers (29 Jan 2018)

lurker":3aezdyoo said:


> Apparently I have been on this forum for over 10 years.
> The rules have pretty much remained the same IIRC
> So if it ain't broke.........
> 
> People come and people go, but the way this forum works continues.



Just because "that's the way it has always been" doesn't make it right or optimal.


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## RogerS (29 Jan 2018)

Bodgers":38ybzawr said:


> lurker":38ybzawr said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently I have been on this forum for over 10 years.
> ...



Really ? 

This is starting to get as boring as thread on sharpening.


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## Bm101 (29 Jan 2018)

You're on a website thats kept running by the hard work (and believe me it's hard work, I used to moderate a gaming site with a population of 200 and the shi*e we used to deal with.... UKW has I dunno? How many thousand members?) You want to sell or buy you abide by a code of honour that from what I see 99.9% abide by. It's a voluntary thing done mostly by a code of honour. There's no price protection, there's no insurance. No Paypal Guarantee. But it works nearly all the time.
If you abide by the spirit of it it's fine.
It's governed by trust in strangers that share an interest. The same reason I've have been sent nice timber by a man I never met for free because he has a genuine interest in helping no hopers like me, the same reason I been sent free files by a top man in Wales. One fella turned a front knob for a plane for me for nothing. I bought my favourite plane off another guy fully tuned for £20. A lovely fella put my bench through his industrial p/t when I was just starting out Free of charge. Took a break from cleaning a broken macerator on a sunday at work to do it and never once laughed at my silly person questions.
I can carry on listing the kindnesses of strangers if you want. 
In all honesty. If I'd never found this site I'd probably have given up by now. Even my small and infrequent projects are spurred on by the enthusiasms of others, the willingness of those wanting to share and being really inspired by those more skillful than me. 
I've been the grateful recipent of answered questions on everything from backing boards for showers to close setting a cap iron and the best way to sharpen. Just kidding about the last two. I already knew the best ways t do that.  
Point being, in a rambling and roundabout way, I haven't strayed off the path at all. It's all part of the same thing.
It's about trust and it's about community.
No disrespect intended Bodgers, I don't come on here to make enemies or be rude. Ever.
I can do that in real life.
There's always Ebay fella.

Greatest Respects.
Chris


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## ColeyS1 (29 Jan 2018)

Wonder if Naz is making something exciting. Pretty much all his projects I'd have loved to make myself. I thought I could get an impression of my nieces teeth than make the ice lolly being eaten thingymejig for the kitchen. I rescued a hoover that my mum was throwing out cause I thought I could make a hoover engine like his. If you're reading this Naz pm me a few pointers on how to do the engine please. Better still, poke your head in the door and don't be a stranger.

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## Noel (29 Jan 2018)

Bm101":rocejito said:


> You're on a website thats kept running by the hard work (and believe me it's hard work, I used to moderate a gaming site with a population of 200 and the shi*e we used to deal with.... UKW has I dunno? How many thousand members?) You want to sell or buy you abide by a code of honour that from what I see 99.9% abide by. It's a voluntary thing done mostly by a code of honour. There's no price protection, there's no insurance. No Paypal Guarantee. But it works nearly all the time.
> If you abide by the spirit of it it's fine.
> It's governed by trust in strangers that share an interest. The same reason I've have been sent nice timber by a man I never met for free because he has a genuine interest in helping no hopers like me, the same reason I been sent free files by a top man in Wales. One fella turned a front knob for a plane for me for nothing. I bought my favourite plane off another guy fully tuned for £20. A lovely fella put my bench through his industrial p/t when I was just starting out Free of charge. Took a break from cleaning a broken macerator on a sunday at work to do it and never once laughed at my silly person questions.
> I can carry on listing the kindnesses of strangers if you want.
> ...



^^^ That's basically why most of us are here, to be part of a community. 5 pages of mostly sharpening thread value wouldn't be here if, like 99% of members, the OP excepted their mistake and moved on. Starting a thread moaning about being reminded of the rules, insulting mods, members and the site in general ain't going to change anything one little iota. If, as the thread title indicates, the OP is not going to use the FS board again why care about how it's run? 
As I said earlier NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE (I'm raising my voice a little in case I'm being misunderstood). I'm minded to close the thread, mainly 'cause Roger S is getting bored, but will leave it open.

So, to repeat, nowt is going to change, board rules work well for all. Certainly going by my experience from looking at feedback and moderating the FS board it runs smoothly, provides a free and friendly service and has been a popular addition to the site since we introduced it.

So, there you go.


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## Walney Col (30 Jan 2018)

I never did try to throw my weight around as the sysop of a free access bulletin board before many of you were even born, but I encountered many who did, it's really disheartening to see that even 35 years on some people are still of the opinion that being in favour with the sysop automatically means they're somehow "special". 

As Esther Rantzen once said about such jobsworths , "it's the petty officialdom of bureaucracy gone mad".

Col.


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## ColeyS1 (30 Jan 2018)

It boils my wee when I see mods having a hard time trying to enforce the rules. They donate their time and energy doing the best they can to keep the place running smoothly. It can't be an easy task and i for one appreciate the effort they put into making this place what it is. I'm sure there are many others out there that feel the same . 
For the minority of handbag swingers who seem hell bent on causing agro, stop being a 'turnip head' and taking the forum for granted. Show some appreciation to the guys that keep the cogs greased up and turning.

Cheers 
Coley 

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## Dangermouse 2nd (30 Jan 2018)

Rules were made for the guidence of wise men and the obidience of fools. ( Oscar Wilde)


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## Lons (30 Jan 2018)

I've stated my appreciation of the mods many times Coley but they're big boys who can look after themselves and don't need anyone babysitting them so why bother getting your p** or anything else boiled for that matter.

We're all entitled to an opinion, which will always differ but doesn't mean that there isn't something of value in all of those so sensible and courteous discussion is what it's all about is it not?

cheers
Bob


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## ColeyS1 (30 Jan 2018)

There's only so much of moron I can tolerate.

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## RogerP (30 Jan 2018)

A photography forum of which I am a member once had a "for sale" section. A similar thread to this sprung up with much bickering, arguing and name calling. The "for sale" section was closed and has remained so. Be warned.


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## Lons (30 Jan 2018)

Moron is in the eye of the beholder and also a subjective opinion Coley but life is too short to get steamed up about it mate.

We called to see a couple yesterday who have been good friends for over 30 years, she has cancer and has only days, if lucky a couple of weeks left, I spent an hour with my mate taking their dog for a walk while my missus sat with his wife and I listened as he poured his heart out. That came on top of losing my sister suddenly when she had a stoke on Christmas eve and at far too young an age kind of brings you down to earth and makes you focus more on what is really important in life.

cheers
Bob


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## ColeyS1 (30 Jan 2018)

Sorry to hear about your friends and sister Bob. I think it took me until my mid 20's to realise how precious and short life is. 

Reading the forum, the more I notice bickering going on. Probably 75% of the time it's over the save thing, it gets hard to not read it. The more bickering the less good stuff. 
We only get to look at the tip of the iceberg as far as the forums concerned. Only the mods are aware what lurks beneath the water. I don't think the rules would have been made just for the sake of it. There must have been alot of thought and amendments over time for all of them to be implemented. I'd love to know the story behind the 'turnip head' comment in the rules.
Apologies for the moron comment, that was uncalled for.

Coley

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## doctor Bob (30 Jan 2018)

CHJ":1rrh43nv said:


> A few points to regarding the rules.
> Nobody wants them



I do ............ I like rules, makes life simple.


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## Bodgers (30 Jan 2018)

I am pretty sure calling somebody a turnip head and a moron is also against the rules.

But I guess nothing will be done about that.

To all those complaining about the verbosity of the thread and it's exsistance - you don't have to read it.

I agree with the for sale section being shut down (as it was in the previously mentioned on a photography) - it is not fit for purpose anyway.

My intention was not to devalue the work of site admins, just to draw attention to the fact the rules need attention and the way they are being applied. 





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## Phil Pascoe (30 Jan 2018)

"I agree with the for sale section being shut down (as it was in the previously mentioned on a photography) - it is not fit for purpose anyway."

Works perfectly well for me.


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## paulm (30 Jan 2018)

Bodgers":61prprna said:


> I am pretty sure calling somebody a turnip head and a moron is also against the rules.
> 
> But I guess nothing will be done about that.
> 
> ...



Thought I was back in the school playground there for a moment, it's not your ball to take away and the rest of us would quite like to keep playing thank you very much :roll: :lol:


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## ColeyS1 (30 Jan 2018)

I admitted I was wrong, I'll accept my punishment. To be honest it was worth it !!

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## whiskywill (30 Jan 2018)

Bm101":2ubcdmdc said:


> I been sent free files by a top man in Wales.



I don't remember doing that. :wink:


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## RogerP (30 Jan 2018)

phil.p":3tondc8z said:


> "I agree with the for sale section being shut down (as it was in the previously mentioned on a photography) - it is not fit for purpose anyway."
> 
> Works perfectly well for me.


Just for the record I didn't suggest the "for sale" section should be shut down. I was just warning what happened on another forum.


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## ColeyS1 (30 Jan 2018)

I think what should happen is when someone uses the forsale forum it should mean they automatically agree to abide by the rules .............. hang on a minute ha

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## Phil Pascoe (30 Jan 2018)

RogerP":2xuewf1e said:


> phil.p":2xuewf1e said:
> 
> 
> > "I agree with the for sale section being shut down (as it was in the previously mentioned on a photography) - it is not fit for purpose anyway."
> ...



I wasn't quoting you, Roger, I was quoting the OP.


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## ColeyS1 (30 Jan 2018)

Another pair who think the 'no running in the workshop' doesn't apply to them.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FhcjzZ ... p=drivesdk

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## Bodgers (30 Jan 2018)

paulm":tfnt7ohn said:


> Bodgers":tfnt7ohn said:
> 
> 
> > Thought I was back in the school playground there for a moment, it's not your ball to take away and the rest of us would quite like to keep playing thank you very much :roll: :lol:



That's why I said it was my opinion. 

I think its fairly clear from this thread nothing will change anyway - so I wouldn't worry.


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## lurker (30 Jan 2018)

Bodgers":2irrqtql said:


> paulm":2irrqtql said:
> 
> 
> > Bodgers":2irrqtql said:
> ...



You have been around long enough to know that was the case when you started this post


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## nev (30 Jan 2018)

I think this thread has now run full cycle so I'll let everyone get on with other things. Now locked. Thank you for your input everyone.


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