# tenon or dovetail saw



## davem62 (3 Dec 2011)

hi all,l would like to start practicing the above joints and wondered if there is a hand saw that would do both adequately or do you need 1 of each, if so what would you buy, new or second hand of fleabay, what are the makes to look out for , also is it worth looking at the japanese saws from mathew at wh.


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2011)

Most people start with a single tenon saw 12" blade and something like 10tpi with a cross cut tooth set. This will do both and I'd stick with that until you can do things reasonably well. Dozens of them on ebay, or new ones fairly cheap. Makes don't matter much (saws are simple things) but sharpening does, so take it to a saw doctor when you get it, if it isn't obviously sharp.
Later you could consider DT saws and other more specialised items, but you need to get your hand in first.
Don't go near a Jap saw - these are for tool enthusiasts not for beginners.

If you want a new one (less of a gamble!) then Matthew's Atkinson-Walker would be a good starter but similar quality second-hand ones are two a penny on ebay.
You'd still need to get it sharpened. I wouldn't attempt this yourself on a new saw, have a go on a few old bangers first.

If you just want to get stuck in there are many like the B&Q Stanley Fatmax for only £10 or so - very cheap and cuts really well.[/url] They are re-sharpenable, in spite of appearances.


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## Dave D (3 Dec 2011)

I wonder what saws Japanese beginners use.


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## Racers (3 Dec 2011)

Obviously the wrong ones :wink: 

Either a cross cut western saw or a japanese saw.
What ever you use practice practice practice, its the only was to get good at something.
Pete


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## dunbarhamlin (3 Dec 2011)

Racers":24hzmaq7 said:


> Either a cross cut western saw ...


Eh?
Rip cut better for tennon cheeks and for dovetail tails and pins (i.e. all of the main cuts.) Only shoulders warrant a cross cut if determined to join straight off of the saw instead of cutting close and paring to the line - and even then a fine rip cut to a knifed line will be clean enough.


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## Racers (3 Dec 2011)

Oops ment to say a Rip saw  


Pete


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## dunbarhamlin (3 Dec 2011)

Hehe - had me doing a double take


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## davem62 (3 Dec 2011)

many thanks for the advice and your time to reply


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## Jacob (3 Dec 2011)

dunbarhamlin":8n8hvf4e said:


> Racers":8n8hvf4e said:
> 
> 
> > Either a cross cut western saw ...
> ...


Well yes but our OP sounds like a beginner and IMHO a general purpose traditional tenon saw is a safe bet. Too many options can be confusing. 



Dave D":8n8hvf4e said:


> I wonder what saws Japanese beginners use.


Why don't you find out and tell us. Shouldn't be difficult. :roll:


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## Paul Chapman (4 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3o44qyfk said:


> Too many options can be confusing.



In cutting dovetails and tenons the majority of cuts are along the grain, so a rip cut dovetail or tenon saw would be best - nothing confusing about that.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (4 Dec 2011)

Jacob":1ii5lmup said:


> Well yes but our OP sounds like a beginner and IMHO a general purpose traditional tenon saw is a safe bet. Too many options can be confusing.


There is something in what Jacob says. It the OP is indeed a newcomer, then a general purpose cross cut tenon will do the job adequately...it's only when you progress a little further do you realize that things might be done better with a rip tooth configuration (if cutting along the grain) and a cross -cut tooth (if going across it)
Thinking about it, when we started, did we have different saws? I certainly didn't - Rob


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## davem62 (4 Dec 2011)

hi all,would like think that i'm a competant diyer fitting numerous kitchens and bathrooms,so like to think fairly skilled using my hands and tools but would now like to get more into skilled joinery if that sounds right


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2011)

That's good then - just get stuck in! 
It's much more about _doing_ it rather than tooly talk. Have you got a tenon saw? If so, just use that. Getting a "better" saw probably wouldn't make any difference at first, if ever.


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## Harbo (4 Dec 2011)

I for one would go for cross cut but with 14 or 15 TPI .

And as for Japanese, the ones WH sell are excellent - I have never had any problems using them.
They cut on the pull stroke rather than the western style push.
I also have a small 160mm one which cost me about £10 from Axminster - I use it all the time and a good cheap way to try them out if you have any doubts?

Unless you know of a good local saw doctor or are capable of saw sharpening yourself - I would give the Bay a miss.
Bargains to be had no doubt but they are generally very blunt?

Rod


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## woodbrains (4 Dec 2011)

Hi.

If you really want to have an enjoyable time woodworking, then why not invest in something that will do the job properly. You will not cut fine dovetails with predictabiliy and enjoyment with a 12 inch tenon saw, even if you are a seasoned pro. A raw beginner will fail and become disheartened. Get the right saws for the job and you will not be hamstrung from the off and then you can really learn how to do things properly. The most significant reason why most woodworking novices give up, thinking they can't do things the way they see others do, is because they do not buy suitable tools which will never do good work for them. Good tools are an investment, but once purchased will last a lifetime, which is better economically than buying dross and tossing them, to inevitably buy the right one later, or worse just never bothering again. You have to realise that much of the advice given in these forums is from people who do not want to spend any money and convince themselves that buying cheap is all that is needed and things which cost a little more are not necessary. Beware of this advice as taking it will inevitably mean you will not get your tools sharp or your joinery crisp. I would recommend a 10 inch Western dovetail rip saw which will do fine dovetails and small tenons. The shoulders can be cut with the same to a knife line, though eventually you will want to get a matching crosscut to make these shoulders finer. Add the equivalent tenon saws when you want to do larger tenons and halving joints. Obviously, if you are going to start with tenons and move to dovetails later, then reverse the order. Once you have got one or two fine tools, then maybe you will want to get some good used saws, as you will then know what you are looking for and what charactreristics you need when re-sharpening, which isn't too difficult to learn and a necessary skill to aquire as your saws will need re-sharpening from time to time. You will never regret buying good tools but you definitely will poor ones.

Mike.


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## Jacob (4 Dec 2011)

woodbrains":2lm4c1lh said:


> ....You will not cut fine dovetails with predictabiliy and enjoyment with a 12 inch tenon saw, even if you are a seasoned pro.


Hmm not entirely true. Slightly less sharp edges perhaps


> A raw beginner will fail and become disheartened.


Can fail and become disheartened even if they have the best saws in the world - it's not the tool it's the practice. At the start it won't make a lot of difference either way as long as they are sharp.


> ....The most significant reason why most woodworking novices give up, thinking they can't do things the way they see others do, is because they do not buy suitable tools which will never do good work for them.


Most successful crafts people, and other performers in most areas (music, sport, you name it), begin their careers with total tat - it's how it is , it's always been that way. Shouldn't put anybody off. 
I think a lot of people will be discouraged by being told that their tools are no good and then will be disheartened by finding that new tools don't immediately make a big difference. It's not about the tools - it's about using them and putting the time in. Most people give up on most things when they haven't put the time in.
By all means buy good tools if you can afford it but they won't do you a lot of good at the beginning - it's all down to practice.
BTW the best DT saws you can buy are the old Spear & Jackson, Footprint etc which still appear on ebay dirt cheap.
I've just had a look and saw new Footprints at £50 +. Still a lot of new stock around. Maybe the old ones are getting scarce?


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2011)

Hi,

If the best sportsmen, musicians etc. could make their original tat work they would not buy better versions later. BTW lousy corners on a dovetail is a poor joint, so get a good saw and cut sharp corners. Practice is important, but you can practice 'till hell freezes over and you will never cut good joints with poor tools. So what are you learning whilst you are practicing with your lousy saw? Oh yes, you should have bought the right one in the first place. Trust me on this; you will only get disheartened if you use poor tools so don't put yourself through the misery. Good tools are easily obtainable these days and are not as expensive as you might think. A good dovetail saw for a day or so's pay is worth the effort. Incidentally, I think those Footprint saws are actually Atkinson Walkers re badged. They are not bad, but need fettling. How do we know how to fettle one 'till we have experienced the qualities of a good saw in the first place. I would not take any advice from anyone who does not even know what a sharp tool is like because they are too afraid of buying the necessary to sharpen them. Incidentally, you cannot re-sharpen induction hardened saw blades unless you completely gring off the teeth back to the plate behind, which is completely not worth doing, they are cheap and throw away for a reason. A good saw file will cost about the same as one so it would be pointless. (No pun intended) Nor can you cut decent dovetails with these, so give them a miss. There isn't a fine craftsman around that hasn't come to the realisation that it is a waste of time trying to do good work with not so good tools. The benefit of forums is to save yourself the pain and miss the steep learning curve that the best craftsmen took and part of that curve was the waste of time and money they went through trialling lots of tools before they found the ones that actually work.

Mike.


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2011)

woodbrains":1l9290r6 said:


> Hi,
> 
> If the best sportsmen, musicians etc. could make their original tat work ....


Very often they _could_ make their tat work, which motivates them to go on and improve, which eventually will mean getting better kit. 
Conversely there will be many who have had access to the best kit available and still couldn't do it. 
In both cases it's a question of putting the time in and being committed, ideally with the right bit of help in the background.
With woodwork tools sharpening is number one, the quality of the tool being a long way behind. In use, a sharp but rubbish quality chisel is streets ahead of a blunt but top quality equivalent. Sharpen them both equally and _in use_ the difference is very small. Ditto saws. Ditto planes perhaps, though some are best avoided!
I think the emphasis on tool quality in these forums could be misleading for a beginner, and the emphasis on complicated sharpening procedures could put them off for life!


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## Modernist (5 Dec 2011)

If I was going to recommend a tenon saw to start it might be better to be a bit finer than 10pt, especially if it was going to be used for dovetails.

I can still remember the difficulty trying to cut tenon cheeks with a cross cut saw at school. It would wander off at the slightest provocation and was very slow. A rip is a different animal here.


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2011)

Modernist":3i2v5hly said:


> If I was going to recommend a tenon saw to start it might be better to be a bit finer than 10pt, especially if it was going to be used for dovetails.


It'd be OK on 1/2" and above perhaps? That Atkinson Walker is 13tpi which could justa bout do thin 3/8" sides


> I can still remember the difficulty trying to cut tenon cheeks with a cross cut saw at school. It would wander off at the slightest provocation and was very slow. A rip is a different animal here.


When I was at school a rip back- saw would have been wasted on me!
PS come to think, I've done lots of DTs and tenons with a cross-cut back saw. In fact I haven't got one. My 2 DT saws are both cross cut. I must try one one day!


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## Paul Chapman (5 Dec 2011)

Modernist":3104qk1b said:


> I can still remember the difficulty trying to cut tenon cheeks with a cross cut saw at school. It would wander off at the slightest provocation and was very slow. A rip is a different animal here.



Agreed. I really can't understand why some recommend a cross cut saw for beginners as if it's some sort of super, general-purpose saw. A cross cut saw used along the grain is slow and inefficient and the tooth arrangement prevents the sawdust clearing efficiently.

Although at one time most dovetail and tenon saws tended to be supplied as cross cut, I bet a lot of users re-filed them to rip - doesn't take a lot to work out that it would cut better along the grain that way. And sharpening would be easier too.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bosshogg (5 Dec 2011)

I have a 10" dovetail, sharpened to a rip teeth, which I use for cutting both with and against the grain. It cuts quicker and cleaner than crosscut teeth and if you keep the set of the teeth down to the minimum, will cut a beautiful straight line. You must spend time practising starting the cut to get it in line, once done you simply saw. A little bit of soap from a bar of, works wonders...bosshogg  



> Imagination is more important than knowledge...
> Albert Einstein (hammer)


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2011)

Modernist":2h969p3n said:


> If I was going to recommend a tenon saw to start it might be better to be a bit finer than 10pt, especially if it was going to be used for dovetails.
> 
> I can still remember the difficulty trying to cut tenon cheeks with a cross cut saw at school. It would wander off at the slightest provocation and was very slow. A rip is a different animal here.



Hi.

I was referring to a 10 inch bladed saw not 10 tpi if that clears things up. Most English 10inch dovetail saws hav in the order of 20tpi which could argueably be too fine in rip, but works well enough. I like them O.K. but the American's do variants with as few as 9 tpi and these cut like the wind, though obviously are not much use for shoulder cutting. Part of the reason that poor saws or even good crosscut saws don't do well for ripping is their lack of speed. If you can cut to the baseline in 5 strokes you will not have wandered anywhere like as far off the intended line, as if it took 25 strokes to do the same.

British 10 inch tenon saws are usually about 12-13 tpi. It is the set which makes these less useful for dovetails. it is too radical for the fine work involved here as they are intended to cut deeper, where more set is an advantage. I find a 10 inch dovetail saw too short for it's intended use, hence my recommendation for a 10 inch dovetail. These will do perfect 'tails and double up as a great tenon saw for the smallish tenons that you would expect a small tenon saw to do. I prefer a 12 or even 14 inch tenon for doing tenons, though I have to admit, that is not often these days. I remember having an antique backsaw which was at least 16 inches long, possibly 18 with a tapered blade. It was an absolute dream for big carcase tenons, but unfortunately seemed to go astray somwhere along the line. Pity.

Mike.


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2011)

Jacob":21mdw11b said:


> woodbrains":21mdw11b said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



As usual, Jacob is comparing apples with oranges and thinking this proves a point. If a raw beginner who cannot play a chord wants to play guitar, then buying one for a couple of hundred quid is a good place to start. The frets will be in the right place, it will stay in tune, you could learn on that. You do not have to spend 10 grand on a Martin from the off. However, you cannot learn to play violin buy buying a bass guitar, because some moron advises you that it has four strings just the same and they are cheaper. You have to have the right tool for the job. The best bit here is that top quality tools for us are only in the order of 2 or 3 times the price of the rubbish. We do not have to pay for the equivalent of a Martin to get good results. A poor saw is like trying to play a guitar which does not have the frets in the right place; even Segovia could not make music on that and a relative beginner would fail never to try again because they would not know that it was the guitar and not them which is at fault.

Sharpening is another reason beginners fail, but not because sharpening regimes are difficult; because their tools are dull. I do not have complex sharpening techniques, but I do sharpen to a mirror polish, and I fully realise that stopping at a relatively coarse grit stone and deluding myself (completely incorrectly) that old timers did it like that, will not make the tools sharp.

The other point that is completely lost on Jacob is that we are all contributing to a woodwork forum; we LIKE tools and we LIKE to do good work. Owning fine tools is something we enjoy (with an obvious exception) and using them gives us a sense of achievement. No one will give us credit, least of all ourselves, for doing almost good work because the tools were only mediocre and it would have been better, honest, if I only had.... Life is too short to waste time on futile pursuits and excuses.

Mike.


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2011)

Bit of a bad tempered rant there. Can't be bothered to pick it apart. Yawn.


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## Paul Chapman (5 Dec 2011)

Jacob":22zthkg7 said:


> Can't be bothered to pick it apart.



That's a relief.......... :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## pedder (5 Dec 2011)

If one is prepared to learn sharpening saws, the cheapest way to a quiite good saw is ebay Spear & Jackson 10" 14 tpi (most modern saws have 14 tpi). E.G.: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUALITY-SPEAR ... 231715c16d

Sharp them at 20° rake and 0° fleam and you get a universal saw. 10 GBP for the saw another ten for the file et voilà.

If one wants to work with wood instead of steel, the Veritas rip carcass saw is the very best saw for a beginner and best bang for the money. I really would like to suggest modern english saws, but the few I had in my shop had wayyyyy to much set to saw good. But one could certainly de-set a saw.

Cheers
Pedder


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2011)

pedder":ob9ry06o said:


> If one is prepared to learn sharpening saws, the cheapest way to a quiite good saw is ebay Spear & Jackson 10" 14 tpi (most modern saws have 14 tpi). E.G.: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUALITY-SPEAR ... 231715c16d
> 
> Sharp them at 20° rake and 0° fleam and you get a universal saw. 10 GBP for the saw another ten for the file et voilà.


Nice saw.
I think that's good advice, and whilst you are at it on ebay might as well pick up one or two more cheapos for practice. You can get 4 or 5 not too bad saws for the price of one new one


> If one wants to work with wood instead of steel, the Veritas rip carcass saw is the very best saw for a beginner and best bang for the money.


Outa the box is good - except quite soon you are going to have to sharpen and a bit later to set. You might as well start with a cheaper 2nd hand english saw and learn the full routine from scratch - or send to saw doctor, as many people do. You can't avoid either working with steel, or getting somebody else to do it for you.


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## pedder (5 Dec 2011)

Jacob":rfsv752y said:


> Outa the box is good - except quite soon you are going to have to sharpen and a bit later to set.



Yes, but then you know what you want. One of the hardest points. But I've yet to buy a premium saw. 

Cheers Pedder


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## condeesteso (6 Dec 2011)

Jacob - just a minor point. First you say the best DT saws are Spear & Jackson or Footprint. Then you say you don't have a dovetail saw, the 2 DT saws you have are both cross-cut.
Those are not the best dovetail saws, and your cross-cuts aren't DT saws at all. What kind of advice is this?


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2011)

condeesteso":1oupdbe6 said:


> Jacob - just a minor point. First you say the best DT saws are Spear & Jackson or Footprint. Then you say you don't have a dovetail saw, the 2 DT saws you have are both cross-cut.
> Those are not the best dovetail saws, and your cross-cuts aren't DT saws at all. What kind of advice is this?



A "dovetail saw" is a saw used for cutting DTs (obviously) but there isn't a tight official definition. It can be long, short, crosscut, rip cut, somewhere in between, backed, backless, "Gents", japanese even. 
As it happens a backsaw between 8 and 10" with about 15tpi or more, is the most favoured for DTs and hence is known generally as a DT saw. 
I've got three that fit this spec , all 8" , about 0.5mm thick blades, 18/20 tpi. 
Two are old S&Js , the third is a new Atkinson Walker which I bought to see if I was missing anything (answer - nothing much, the S&Js are identical but have slightly better handles). They are all as good as you get IMHO and the difference with posher ones is largely cosmetic, especially in the handle area. 2 of them are cross cut one is rip cut. 
I've also got an old 12" Tyzack tenon saw ("tenon" again is only a loose term) with 15tpi so this will do fine for DTs in thicker material say 1/2" +. I think of it as a DT saw.
Err, that's it!

Come to think these various saws are not just (loosely) matched with a function, but also with the size of workpiece. The common 8" DT saw is ideal for DTs in the common drawer side thickness of 3/8" to 5/16". You could use it for crosscutting small stuff too, nobody will mind!


PS my two S&Js have have 44 and 48mm of blade width but the Atkinson has 57mm. The narrower blade seems better in use and I wonder if they started life as 2" and the Atkinson is too wide?
I think I'll ebay the Atkinson while it still looks new.


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## Racers (6 Dec 2011)

Jacob

Didn't the orignal poster want a dovetail saw? is your Atkinson and Walker a rip cut? you could sell it to him if it is.

Pete


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2011)

Racers":2c522hhj said:


> Jacob
> 
> Didn't the orignal poster want a dovetail saw? is your Atkinson and Walker a rip cut? you could sell it to him if it is.
> 
> Pete


Thanks I'll bear it in mind.
Actually just having had a closer look at it it's an ugly beast. I don't normally complain about appearances but the handle on this saw is basically a plank with a hole in it, and is not nice to use. Changed my mind - don't buy Atkinson Walker saws!
Actually he is asking about tenons as well, hence the comments on general purpose saws.
Nice one here went for peanuts, but there'll be plenty more along.
I was talking to a box and model maker recently and for fine dovetails he uses a junior hacksaw! Hmm might have a go. As long as it's sharp. :shock: Then what about sharpening a 6" nail for a chisel? I don't see why not.

PS we are lucky to live in an time when good quality second hand tools have never been so plentiful and so cheap. It's bit insane to buy new, unless you are desperate.


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## Modernist (7 Dec 2011)

Jacob":1ju0mwf1 said:


> Racers":1ju0mwf1 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob
> ...



The obvious answer be it S & J from the 80's with good blades but dire handles (purplish varnish) or a current At W is to rehandle to a traditional pattern and get the best of all worlds.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2011)

Modernist":2lomoa9j said:


> ........
> The obvious answer be it S & J from the 80's with good blades but dire handles (purplish varnish) or a current At W is to rehandle to a traditional pattern and get the best of all worlds.


Or just rasp off the sharp edges and clean up with sandpaper. "Hand stitched" rasp of course. :shock: 
Actually I quite like that modern handle on the S&J linked above. Trim design and perfectly comfortable - I've got one like it. But my AW is another thing altogether.

Idling about, I just tried out a junior hacksaw on a 7mm sycamore board and it does a very clean perfect cut along the grain. Ideal for DTs in thin stuff IMHO. 30 ish tpi makes it a bit slow but still usable. Blade is 0.5mm same as most DT saws.
I'll have a go at nail-as-chisel next, but I'd better do some real work first.


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## Modernist (7 Dec 2011)

Jacob":a68p9fq7 said:


> Actually I quite like that modern handle on the S&J linked above. Trim design and perfectly comfortable - I've got one like it. But my AW is another thing altogether.



"Eye of the beholder" et al. My joy at seeing my S & J handles turned into energy was unconfined. Not only was the appearance poor but I thought the position on the blade was wrong. It was an entirely different grip on the Disston I used as a pattern for the replacement and much better.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2011)

Excited by this thread so I just got this from ebay arrived this morning.
It's actually a very good saw. Nicely made, heavy, well finished, good comfortable handle. I'd say top quality. 
Cheap, even though I paid over the odds; same thing goes for as little as £2 if you hang on in. 
Whats the point in paying 10 or more times as much for a modern but inferior saw?


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## andy king (21 Dec 2011)

Jacob":24wqblic said:


> Whats the point in paying 10 or more times as much for a modern but inferior saw?



Dunno. You tell us, you bought an Atkinson Walker one a while back.

Andy


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## bugbear (21 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2ykz4aa6 said:


> It's actually a very good saw. Nicely made, heavy, well finished, good comfortable handle. I'd say top quality.



Sounds a bit tooly to me. :lol: 

BugBear


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## robcosman (21 Dec 2011)

Interesting thread, Mike I think you are right on in every point if my support matters. I teach hand joinery for a living and to say the tools are not the key is misguided. I go so far as to say when cutting dovetails, it"s 70% tools, 20% technique and only 10% practise. I can see the eyebrows raising! Here is my proof if I am allowed to use this link http://robcosman.com/student_gallery.htm These guys come to a class that is usually 1 or 2 days long. For the most part they have never cut a joint or even used a saw, most are north of 55 and beginners at best. The joints you see have to be assembled from the saw, not pared to fit. There is no test fitting, they can only assemble it once and it gets glued at that time, this way they learn to measure, mark, saw and chisel accuratley. It may not be the final word but I think there is enough evidence here to prove the point. If you buy a good saw and there are lots of them availabe, like Mike said, you only buy once. If it comes properly sharpened and set then the beginner is not having to learn those skills before he gets to what he wants, cutting dovetails. There is a lot to be said for having early success. Good saws make straight joinable cuts, you need only learn to aim and push/pull. Better tools tend to be more comfortable and balanced, these get used the others get avoided. 
It bothers me as well to see the kind of advice often given by those cheapskates who think it's a crime to spend money on tools. The more poeple that get into this craft the better it will be for all of us. Having them buy good tools first is the best way of keeping them interested, my opinion. I recently golfed with some really nice clubs, all I can say is "WOW". 
Merry Christmas!
Rob Cosman


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## bobbybirds (21 Dec 2011)

I have to agree with Rob... Not that one "needs" a new, premium tool to be able to learn a task, but in that it definitely can help decrease the frustration and improve the learning curve when one has tools that function properly right from the get go. I know when I started cutting dovetails, after I stepped up and bought quality equipment I did notice a very real difference in my ability to cut well right out of the gate. In a strange way I think it also helped my focus as in my head I knew I couldn't sit there and blame my tools when things were not working, which forced me to evaluate what "I" was doing wrong and make the necessary changes.

Also one of the benefits of starting with a new, proper functioning quality tool is that you know what a tool is supposed to feel like and how it functions, so later if you have a preference for refurbing old/vintage tools, you have a good base line to use when fixing up that diamond in the rough...

All that being said, there are most definitely some really great vintage tools on the market and if the budget dictates that, so be it, but a beginner will have a much harder time trying to weed through the duds to get to the diamonds, so if the budget allows for it, why not start with something you know is good, and add vintage options from there if so desired?


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## MickCheese (21 Dec 2011)

Isn't it interesting the differing views!

I cannot help but wonder if Jacob just plays devil advocate to make the thread more interesting or if he actually believes everything he says. Sometimes I fear he is like the naughty boy every school had, they had a reputation to uphold and rose to the occasion without fail.  

I have found this thread an interesting read and if you take the wheat from the chaff you can extract a lot of very useful information that will help you make an informed decision. I also helps me see the argument from the different angles.

I do feel, as a novice, that the limitations of a poor tool are easier overcome in the hands of a craftsman then those of a novice. So, for a novice it is surely better you start with the best you can justify / afford.

It also gives me less excuses and so I keep practising.

Mick


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## JakeS (21 Dec 2011)

MickCheese":1rp2h11s said:


> I cannot help but wonder if Jacob just plays devil advocate to make the thread more interesting or if he actually believes everything he says. Sometimes I fear he is like the naughty boy every school had, they had a reputation to uphold and rose to the occasion without fail.



It's off-topic, but to be honest - maybe there's been some far worse incidents in the past that I've not seen in my short time on this forum so far - he strikes me as 50% "no-nonsense and no-patience" and 50% just incapable of ignoring the baiting he gets from half the rest of the forum...


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2011)

andy king":28nue793 said:


> Jacob":28nue793 said:
> 
> 
> > Whats the point in paying 10 or more times as much for a modern but inferior saw?
> ...


It was an mistake.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2011)

MickCheese":ob8ltz7d said:


> I...... So, for a novice it is surely better you start with the best you can justify / afford.
> 
> .....


It's best to start. Period (UK "full stop"). Everything else is details.
If you have doubts about the junior hacksaw for DTs just have a go. Small DTs that is, as per perhaps max 10mm thick drawer sides. Normal 32tpi metal blade. I doubt the wood cutting alternative would be as good, but I haven't tried it.


----------



## Jacob (21 Dec 2011)

MickCheese":3cizpeab said:


> ...
> I cannot help but wonder if Jacob just plays devil advocate


Not really. I started taking more interest in hand tools a few years back but I found quite difficult to extract reliable info from a backdrop of relentless promotion of expensive tools and the gleeful squeakings of the gullible fan base. So I am now very sceptical of quite a lot, and have been trying things out for myself. Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake) and the latest ebay S&J (very nice, dirt cheap and surprisingly sharp).
The S&J is similar quality to my best Sanderson & Kayser 1982 vintage, but has a better shape (handle) and finish, which suggests it is a lot earlier. 50s?

PS TBH I am much more interested in the woodwork. The tool you happen to pick up is not that important as long as it is sharp (unless it's a hammer!). The quality of the steel is just a detail too. Lose an edge quickly: sharpen quickly, or vice versa, a simple trade off


----------



## Paul Chapman (21 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2qn9htgw said:


> TBH I am much more interested in the woodwork.



I'm surprised that you have time to do any, given that you seem to spend most of your time on here.......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":hyten76w said:


> Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake)



You keep telling us the sharpness of a saw as purchased doesn't matter, since you sharpen them yourself, or will have to after a few months of use.

If the AW is blunt, I guess it's your fault, not theirs.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

bugbear":29f9azzr said:


> Jacob":29f9azzr said:
> 
> 
> > Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake)
> ...


I don't "tell" you or anybody else, I just say what I think, in a normal discursive way.

Yes I did say the above but I think in today's market they should be sharpened, especially as the competitors have made this a major selling point (outa da box, hard edge, etc). It now seems a bit stupid to be sending out blunt saws.


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

Paul Chapman":3dous75t said:


> Jacob":3dous75t said:
> 
> 
> > TBH I am much more interested in the woodwork.
> ...


Another gem of wit and wisdom! It's posts like this which make forums so lively and interesting!


----------



## nanowire (22 Dec 2011)

I definitely think Jacob (and others of the same mind like e.g. Paul Sellers) have a point when noting that when, as a novice, looking for info about using hand tools it is easy to get the impression that you actually need the most expensive and complicated stuff available. There message is definitely not in majority and it's not like they make any harm to the average woodworker... 

That it is nice to work with top notch equipment, vintage or new, whether as a hobbyist or a professional, is beside that point. And that one of the reasons for it is actually self vindictive bias should anyone be able to agree upon.


----------



## bugbear (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":n51chqwk said:


> bugbear":n51chqwk said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":n51chqwk said:
> ...



Feeling sensitive, Grim?

_Tell: [reporting verb] communicate information to someone in spoken or written words:_

- *Oxford Dictionaries*

BugBear


----------



## Modernist (22 Dec 2011)

I love this exploration of the extremities of the English language. Unfortunately the tone of the word "tell" can only be surmised and the breadth of possibilities remains wide as a consequence.


----------



## robcosman (22 Dec 2011)

nanowire":3fb7gmls said:


> I definitely think Jacob (and others of the same mind like e.g. Paul Sellers) have a point when noting that when, as a novice, looking for info about using hand tools it is easy to get the impression that you actually need the most expensive and complicated stuff available. There message is definitely not in majority and it's not like they make any harm to the average woodworker...
> 
> That it is nice to work with top notch equipment, vintage or new, whether as a hobbyist or a professional, is beside that point. And that one of the reasons for it is actually self vindictive bias should anyone be able to agree upon.





Dont think "complicated" has to be part of this. I recommend LN chisels because they are comfortable, light, well shaped (bevelled edges not tops) and come ground flat. This is not "complicated"! The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel. The new woodworker will surely save money, but it will be spent on the next hobby after these frustrate him out of woodworking! 
The point I make is to purchase once and save the agrivation. I am not talking to those who love tool restoration, I think that is close to being a seperate hobby.
cheers
Rob


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

robcosman":2s2kjrt3 said:


> ..... The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel.


Very few of them are that bad. I bought a set of these a bit back. They are ugly, the bevel edges are not "fine" but otherwise they are perfectly OK and ideal for a novice. If these would put him off woodwork then he's a non starter anyway and won't have wasted much money


> The new woodworker will surely save money,


Certainly will! Could get a complete tool set together from what he would save by buying LN equivalents. Expensive LNs for a beginner is madness when you think of all the other stuff he most likely needs, not to mention the wood! In fact they never mention the wood it's all about the tools, which is to have priorities complete in reverse!


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## bugbear (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2crs0srb said:


> robcosman":2crs0srb said:
> 
> 
> > ..... The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel.
> ...



Jacob - you might want to gently remind your self that Rob actually DOES teach beginners. Surely you of all people don't want to be in the position of an armchair theorist arguing with someone with practical knowledge...

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

bugbear":10uog900 said:


> .....Jacob - you might want to gently remind your self that Rob actually DOES teach beginners. Surely you of all people don't want to be in the position of an armchair theorist arguing with someone with practical knowledge...
> 
> BugBear


What on earth do you mean by "you of all people"?
I am not an armchair theorist. Strictly practical. I was a beginner too. A born again beginner as well. I have a good grasp of what this beginner needed. And am a fairly confident woodworker now. Have been doing it for 30 years (as woodworker only), and twenty years before that as designer/maker mostly wood, and carpenter and builder. Have taught a few too (as workshop assistants etc).
Would you like a photo of my current WIP?


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## bobbybirds (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":1sr59w23 said:


> robcosman":1sr59w23 said:
> 
> 
> > ..... The opposite is to get a clunky, poorly shaped and belly backed cheap chisel.
> ...



If a beginner is going to save himself money on anything, wood is exactly where it would be smarter. I practiced cutting dovetails in cheap pine and poplar long before I started making pieces out of much more expensive woods...

Rob definitely knows what it means to teach and train people with little or no experience, and the amount of people that have rolled through his classrooms give him a much larger test group to base his educated opinions on than most of us keyboard warriors will ever have...

Again, nobody is saying you can't do well with refurbished vintage tools, but to suggest that is the only and absolutely easiest and best way for a newbie to get into the hobby is a fallacy. If it falls within the purchasers immediate budget to buy premium new tools, I absolutely think that person will get a leg up on the learning curve.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":334xkzz6 said:


> ......If it falls within the purchasers immediate budget to buy premium new tools, I absolutely think that person will get a leg up on the learning curve.


To be realistic many people including myself would never even begin woodwork if they had to spend all their money on "premium" tools. 
Many people complete a whole career without them! 
Almost everybody gets started with whatever they can lay their hands on, however bad.
By all means treat yourself to LN chisels if thats what you want, but beginner or expert, they won't make any difference to your woodwork, if you have access to some ordinary tools and sharpening facilities.


----------



## bobbybirds (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3brco4bk said:


> bobbybirds":3brco4bk said:
> 
> 
> > ......By all means treat yourself to LN chisels if thats what you want, but beginner or expert, they won't make any difference to your woodwork, if you have access to some ordinary tools and sharpening facilities.


That is not necessarily true IMHO, but again your experiences may vary from my own and other peoples too... It's nice to have varying opinions and they are all valid, yours and mine included. There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat! :ho2


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":5k8usd4s said:


> Jacob":5k8usd4s said:
> 
> 
> > bobbybirds":5k8usd4s said:
> ...


Not _necessarily_ true I agree. But probably true. For most people and most kinds of work. 
Just being boringly realistic!


----------



## JakeS (22 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":1gm0i1eg said:


> If a beginner is going to save himself money on anything, wood is exactly where it would be smarter. I practiced cutting dovetails in cheap pine and poplar long before I started making pieces out of much more expensive woods...



Conversely, I'd say that if a beginner is going to get put off woodworking by anything, it's more likely to be how hard it is to get half-decent results with woods like pine than being able to tell the difference between a top-end chisel and a not-atrocious cheaper one! The difference sawing, chiselling and otherwise shaping a decent hardwood compared to pine is like night and day.


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

JakeS":2s4zokya said:


> bobbybirds":2s4zokya said:
> 
> 
> > If a beginner is going to save himself money on anything, wood is exactly where it would be smarter. I practiced cutting dovetails in cheap pine and poplar long before I started making pieces out of much more expensive woods...
> ...


And the beginner tends to try to buy _just enough_ for the project - all that argy bargy in timber yards with cutting lists and finding that there isn't quite enough, due to cupping etc. 
Beginner need to buy several times as much as he estimates and be prepared to waste/experiment with a lot of it, and have a bit of stock left if he's lucky!

PS astonishing that bobbybirds is suggesting economising on wood! A very tooly point of view without a doubt!


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":1iubadre said:


> bugbear":1iubadre said:
> 
> 
> > .....Jacob - you might want to gently remind your self that Rob actually DOES teach beginners. Surely you of all people don't want to be in the position of an armchair theorist arguing with someone with practical knowledge...
> ...


And I'd add - I'm amazed that our own armchair theorist, who as far as we know has never made anything• should trot out this sort of stuff! 
•(apologies if this wrong BB but if you do make things you are very shy about it :lol: )


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## bobbybirds (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":47d5962r said:


> JakeS":47d5962r said:
> 
> 
> > bobbybirds":47d5962r said:
> ...



You bring up a valid point for sure...

Thinking back, I started with a bit different approach than many people who like to woodwork. I actually come from an automotive background, which now thinking about that is another reason why I am on the new, best tools possible mindset as I have always approached it the same way from automotives. Buy once and forever is engrained in me I think. Anyways, turning a hobby into a business made me not enjoy it as a hobby anymore so I sold off all my project cars etc and decided to get into woodworking to work with my hands yet have a more creative outlet.

This process left me time to research and with a decent enough budget I was able to buy many good tools (and some not so good) right out of the gate. Now I had a bunch of tools and no experience other than high school woodworking. So rather than just jumping into projects, I bought some pine, poplar, and a bunch of unfinished flooring bits and spent probably the first 6 months doing nothing but practicing how to use my tools, planing until I was deep in shavings, cutting and chopping DT's until they fit well, sawing them off and going again, etc, etc until I felt confident enough to build a simple box and not be frustrated with how it looked. And I did run into the issue you described of not buying enough wood for the first couple projects! lol

Anyways, not sure where I was going with all this except to maybe say I realise I am far from the most all knowing expert, but the way I approached my learning curve let me try both vintage and new premium (and not so premium) options while I was in full newbie mode, and I found that the better quality new tools always seemed to help me just be a little bit better in the cut and frustrated me just a bit less. It is funny because now I find that I can work with the older, less tuned tools better now that I know what they should feel like once properly tuned...

I should point out I was NOT suggesting one buy cheap, low end wood for a nice project, but for practice purposes instead...


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":vhej4yx1 said:


> .......and I found that the better quality new tools always seemed to help me just be a little bit better in the cut and frustrated me just a bit less. It is funny because now I find that I can work with the older, less tuned tools better now that I know what they should feel like once properly tuned...


Only a guess - but it's probably because the better quality tools tend to arrive nice and sharp and ready to use. After a time this advantage is lost and the tools are basically as good as the last sharpening.
I agree with your practice approach - waste a lot of wood, it's worth it in the long run!


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## bobbybirds (22 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2b0ztylz said:


> bobbybirds":2b0ztylz said:
> 
> 
> > .......and I found that the better quality new tools always seemed to help me just be a little bit better in the cut and frustrated me just a bit less. It is funny because now I find that I can work with the older, less tuned tools better now that I know what they should feel like once properly tuned...
> ...


You are absolutely correct that this was a major factor, but as said, I was then aware of how it was supposed to perform so I knew once I started sharpening where I needed to be...

If someone without experience has the benefit of having someone who knows what they are doing showing them what old tools to buy and how to tune them for initial use etc, then that is awesome, but many of us also get into woodworking without the assistance of friends who are already experienced, and without any knowledge of what to look for, money can just as easily, or more easily, be wasted not getting quality stuff.

Edit - It probably warrants mentioning that in my area, finding really decent used tools is not easy. In Europe I believe you folks will have a whole lot larger pools to pick through for quality vintage pieces. Just realising the direction where a lot of my opinions have been coming from...


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## bugbear (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2j401rv5 said:


> Jacob":2j401rv5 said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":2j401rv5 said:
> ...



It's almost as if the irony was being deliberately used for comic effect.

BugBear


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

Sorry BB I've just realised that you were being ironical in the first place. Well caught!
My excuse is that I do seem to have to spend a lot of time on here being dully defensive.

http://robcosman.com/student_gallery.htm

Looking at RCs balmy army of smiling old chaps each clutching their identical dovetail efforts - yes I'm sure they would have enjoyed the exercise and fiddling and fantasising with some posh tools, but this is not how you learn woodwork in the real world. 
Even a brief C&G course is going to be 6 months full time, and that's just the very beginning. Real students are not going to be issued with LN chisels etc for at least two good reasons - first they are not good value for money (as chisels :roll: not as collectibles ), second because they'd all immediately get nicked and traded for whole sets of sensible tools!


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## Modernist (23 Dec 2011)

Can't say I'm inspired by the proportions of some of the DT in the above gallery. Many of them look a bit steep to me and not too easy on the eye. 

Each to their own I suppose and they look as if they enjoyed themselves.

It may just be innate cynicism or a language thing but I find the whole "heirloom" tool concept and Cosmanism thing a bit hard to swallow. After all, through dovetails are not particularly difficult to do after reading a book and a bit of practice. It seems to be more about tool marketing and zippo demo's than cabinetmaking. The cash call for the unfortunate DC didn't help dispel that image but no doubt hoardes will brand me a non-believer, even though I'm very keen on quality effective tools myself.


----------



## bugbear (23 Dec 2011)

Modernist":1ohtmyh9 said:


> Can't say I'm inspired by the proportions of some of the DT in the above gallery. Many of them look a bit steep to me and not too easy on the eye.
> 
> Each to their own I suppose and they look as if they enjoyed themselves.



I think (assuming my interpretation is the right one) the important thing here is the title "Training the Hand Workshop Photos - First Time Dovetail Examples by Students".

If these are genuinely the first dovetails these students have ever cut, it speaks fairly positively of Cosman's approach.

BugBear


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

bugbear":2x316ssu said:


> ...
> If these are genuinely the first dovetails these students have ever cut, it speaks fairly positively of Cosman's approach.
> 
> BugBear


_These guys come to a class that is usually 1 or 2 days long. For the most part they have never cut a joint or even used a saw, most are north of 55 and beginners at best._
So why are they doing dovetails? 
It's just woodwork as entertainment. Like the have-a-go stalls you find at craft fairs etc. - the important thing is to have something to take home with you at the end of the day to show your mum (though not with these lads!). Nothing wrong with that but it's not much to do with learning about woodwork.


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## robcosman (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2mfibppe said:


> Sorry BB I've just realised that you were being ironical in the first place. Well caught!
> My excuse is that I do seem to have to spend a lot of time on here being dully defensive.
> 
> http://robcosman.com/student_gallery.htm
> ...





Jacob I have a lot of experience dealing with children as well and this feels like one of those moments. So here is your dose of "attention". Not sure what world you are living in but the only woodworking going on today is amoung hobbyist. So the smiling "old chaps" represent the vast majority who are buying the tools , reading the magazines and who are keeping what is left of hand tool work alive. You need to be a bit more respectful, Brian included. 
The students in question are not encouraged to fiddle and fantasize. The tail board has to be cut without flaw, no repairs. We have them start over instead of fixing mistakes. Once the tail board is complete, everything but the base line coming straight from the saw, they transfer tails to pins and saw the pins. Here again we dont allow paring, it has to come from the saw or they do it again. I think the results speak for themselves. My point was to show how good tools can offset excessive practise. You scoff, I prove! Some of these guys are in thier 80's and learning to cut dovetails for the first time. They are looking to make a few boxes, maybe some chests of drawers. The best part is they walk away after a one or two day class believing they can do it. This inspires many to persue it much more seriously. Your contribution - you sit in front of your keyboard and nit pick. I can hear that lump of coal hitting the bottom of an empty stocking!
Merry Christmas Scrouge!
Rob Cosman


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## robcosman (23 Dec 2011)

Modernist":14iioktz said:


> Can't say I'm inspired by the proportions of some of the DT in the above gallery. Many of them look a bit steep to me and not too easy on the eye.
> 
> Each to their own I suppose and they look as if they enjoyed themselves.
> 
> It may just be innate cynicism or a language thing but I find the whole "heirloom" tool concept and Cosmanism thing a bit hard to swallow. After all, through dovetails are not particularly difficult to do after reading a book and a bit of practice. It seems to be more about tool marketing and zippo demo's than cabinetmaking. The cash call for the unfortunate DC didn't help dispel that image but no doubt hoardes will brand me a non-believer, even though I'm very keen on quality effective tools myself.





Hey Brian, Tom Lie-Nielsen, Ron Hock, Frank Beyers, Highland Hardware, Woodcraft Supply and others all stepped in to help DC who at the time was near death in hospital. I spoke to several of these folks before we went public to get help for someone that has given to the woodworking community for years. I find your mean spirited use of the term "cash call" highly offensive and I dont know why it has not been removed. I hope others on this forum will speak thier mind and put you in your place. Dont even expect a lump of coal.
Rob Cosman


----------



## bobbybirds (23 Dec 2011)

robcosman":782n5790 said:


> Modernist":782n5790 said:
> 
> 
> > It may just be innate cynicism or a language thing but I find the whole "heirloom" tool concept and Cosmanism thing a bit hard to swallow. After all, through dovetails are not particularly difficult to do after reading a book and a bit of practice. It seems to be more about tool marketing and zippo demo's than cabinetmaking. The cash call for the unfortunate DC didn't help dispel that image but no doubt hoardes will brand me a non-believer, even though I'm very keen on quality effective tools myself.
> ...



People try and help someone who has given an incredible amount to the woodworking community, and it gets thrown back in their face? I only hope that if I were in DC's position my friends would do so much... 

I truly pray you never end up in the same spot as David and have to require the help of a community to get you through it.


----------



## RogerS (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob

Why are you contradicting yourself all the time? 

If you are sincerely interested in helping people.......especially those new to woodworking ......then why do you state on Dec 3rd that _Matthew's Atkinson-Walker would be a good starter_ and then a couple of weeks later you go and say the opposite _Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake) _ ? Anyone bothering to listen to your ramblings knows better and won't follow your 'advice' but I do feel some sympathy for anyone new to the forum and woodworking being taken in by you.


----------



## bugbear (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":200nz1r7 said:


> It's just woodwork as entertainment.



Yes, you really do seem to object to that quite strongly. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

BugBear


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

RogerS":2nytzicw said:


> Jacob
> 
> Why are you contradicting yourself all the time?
> 
> If you are sincerely interested in helping people.......especially those new to woodworking ......then why do you state on Dec 3rd that _Matthew's Atkinson-Walker would be a good starter_ and then a couple of weeks later you go and say the opposite _Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake) _ ? Anyone bothering to listen to your ramblings knows better and won't follow your 'advice' but I do feel some sympathy for anyone new to the forum and woodworking being taken in by you.


Changed my mind having thought about it for a bit. Sorry for the confusion! But that's the whole point of having discussions - you are pressed to think about things and be a bit more critical of your own position as well as everybody elses.


----------



## RogerS (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":4g531mmb said:


> RogerS":4g531mmb said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob
> ...



Nothing wrong with that approach Jacob but, in that case, perhaps you should give a health warning with all your 'pearls of wisdom'? Just so that anyone new to the forum doesn't get misled, you understand.


----------



## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":31tk4lcf said:


> ......................
> People try and help someone who has given an incredible amount to the woodworking community, and it gets thrown back in their face? I only hope that if I were in DC's position my friends would do so much...
> 
> I truly pray you never end up in the same spot as David and have to require the help of a community to get you through it.


But there are always others on this forum going through the same or worse. There is no precedent for a whip round; it did seem very odd, especially being asked to buy DVDs. Not that we don't sympathise with DC and his illness.
Maybe it should be a regular item? Whip round of the week, for struggling forum members, or other good causes?


----------



## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

RogerS":k1qo9qzd said:


> ...
> Nothing wrong with that approach Jacob but, in that case, perhaps you should give a health warning with all your 'pearls of wisdom'? ......


No need - they are queuing round the block to do it! :lol:

PS sorry you haven't shot out and bought one have you? Just send it back!


----------



## Modernist (23 Dec 2011)

robcosman":3hcefau5 said:


> Modernist":3hcefau5 said:
> 
> 
> > Can't say I'm inspired by the proportions of some of the DT in the above gallery. Many of them look a bit steep to me and not too easy on the eye.
> ...






> Tom Lie-Nielsen, Ron Hock, Frank Beyers, Highland Hardware, Woodcraft Supply



All trade I notice



> I find your mean spirited use of the term "cash call" highly offensive and I dont know why it has not been removed



What would you call it? I was not alone in finding it unacceptable and IIRC it was your post that was actually removed at the time.

I know my place thank you and it is interesting to note that you attack _me _in order to defend your _position_. For my part I noted my concern for DC's recovery from the outset, own and read all his books and feel justified in airing my view on a clearly controversial subject on a woodwork forum designed for the purpose. IN fact I suspect it is an issue of national style and custom which may explain the problem.



bobbybirds":3hcefau5 said:


> People try and help someone who has given an incredible amount to the woodworking community, and it gets thrown back in their face? I only hope that if I were in DC's position my friends would do so much...
> 
> I truly pray you never end up in the same spot as David and have to require the help of a community to get you through it.



ditto the above


----------



## bobbybirds (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2ipfyziw said:


> bobbybirds":2ipfyziw said:
> 
> 
> > ......................
> ...



In my experience it seems that "charitable" donations seem to come easier when people are getting something for their money over and above the good feeling you get by helping someone in need. Kind of a sad commentary but reality is what it is. I think maybe that is because people are always being asked to give to one thing or another, so the offer of receiving something tangible helping draws a few more people to the table.


----------



## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":cenze7xk said:


> .
> 
> In my experience it seems that "charitable" donations seem to come easier when people are getting something for their money over and above the good feeling you get by helping someone in need. Kind of a sad commentary but reality is what it is. I think maybe that is because people are always being asked to give to one thing or another, so the offer of receiving something tangible helping draws a few more people to the table.


Well it's a point of view but I don't particularly share it. I occasionally (rarely - I'm not especially charitable!) slip a handful of change to Big Issue seller but I tell him to keep the mag, I don't want it.


----------



## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

robcosman":30657cvh said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Brian, Tom Lie-Nielsen, Ron Hock, Frank Beyers, Highland Hardware, Woodcraft Supply and others all stepped in to help DC who at the time was near death in hospital. ....


All trade - nothing wrong with that but they do get a bit self righteous. "Giving" to the woodworking community? "Selling" is the operative word.
Personally I get quite peed off with the relentless pressure to buy posh tools and the monotonous accompaniment of denigration of everything else - I think it's 99% borlocks. Note - not 100%. :lol:

PS and if anybody is reading this who also is thinking of buying a chisel set - these are a bargain!. NB I have no financial interest in this no freebies come my way! I got one once - a tin of Honerite no1. It didn't prejudice me in any way - I advised not to buy it as it is much the same as WD 40 but 40(?) times the price.


----------



## bobbybirds (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3evfp5wv said:


> robcosman":3evfp5wv said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Pot - Kettle - Black

Relentless pressure attempting to make people feel dumb because they can justify buying premium quality products is any better?

This reminds me of the fellow in the 20 year old VW calling down the guy with a new Porsche because they are wasting their money since both cars get from point A to point B...


----------



## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":1fy7lysk said:


> .......
> This reminds me of the fellow in the 20 year old VW calling down the guy with a new Porsche because they are wasting their money since both cars get from point A to point B...


They are thinking of different things. For most people getting from A to B is the_ only_ consideration (plus cost, comfort, safety, convenience, reliability etc). A big 10 year old VW would win hands down! 20 years is pushing it (probably literally).


----------



## bobbybirds (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3807vzla said:


> bobbybirds":3807vzla said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...


So other than performance in a tool, there are no other considerations? When I buy a tool I consider other things... Maybe I should be ashamed, but fit, feel, finish, possible future resale, etc all come into play for me, and if the price is affordable within my monetary abilities, or anybody else for that matter, why should you feel the need to point out how ridiculous their idea of a good purchase is? 

Out of all these premium tool makers you seem to think are taking advantage of the public, I have conversed with many of them prior to making any of my purchases, and not a single one ever told me that their tools are the best and only way to go. Most of them actually made suggestions about how accomplish the things I wanted to do and save money by considering using other manufacturers certain items or even used items along with a specific tool of their own, which was in essence taking money out of their own pockets as I was intending on buying much more than I left with. I for one am happy to see the return of the specialist who cares about their products over the mass market producers of mediocre at best can openers...

I feel sorry for you that you are so jaded on the small scale business guy and manufacturer that you think they are all only out to get you, and you end up subscribing to the giant corporations mentality of build it fast and cheap and sell rubbish to millions rather than quality to thousands, all while sending your money to countries that do not value humans as people but instead as commodities...


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

No you have completely missed the point. You've got the tooly bug and are talking the talk. I am much interested in woodwork and the things made (not sure why).
Some people look at cars and think travel, the road, far away places. Others think spanners.
Or something along those lines if you see what I mean :shock: .



> why should you feel the need to point out how ridiculous their idea of a good purchase is


By "good" I take it you mean expensive. 
The answer is balance - everybody is so keen to dismiss ordinary tools, which is a great pity. The £7 saw I posted about above is actually excellent but I'm regarded as a blasphemer. Those Axminster chisels are OK and certainly wouldn't hinder anybody's woodwork efforts. And so on....


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## bobbybirds (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":2hz6h3sr said:


> No you have completely missed the point. You've got the tooly bug and are talking the talk. I am much interested in woodwork and the things made (not sure why).
> Some people look at cars and think travel, the road, far away places. Others think spanners.
> Or something along those lines if you see what I mean :shock: .



Not missing the point at all... You look at a result more specifically while I take enjoyment in the entire journey getting to that result, and that involves the enjoyment of my tools as well as the actions and finally result of everything combined. We are very much different in our core, and while I respect how you approach how you do things, you apparently do not respects my way and look down on others who feel the same way and seem to think we are somehow not as genuine with our craft...


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## bobbybirds (23 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3iy9jbkz said:


> By "good" I take it you mean expensive.
> The answer is balance - everybody is so keen to dismiss ordinary tools, which is a great pity. The £7 saw I posted about above is actually excellent but I'm regarded as a blasphemer. Those Axminster chisels are OK and certainly wouldn't hinder anybody's woodwork efforts. And so on....



No not at all... I am not the one constantly bringing up price. That would be yourself.


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## No skills (23 Dec 2011)

> The answer is balance - everybody is so keen to dismiss ordinary tools, which is a great pity. The £7 saw I posted about above is actually excellent *but I'm regarded as a blasphemer*. Those Axminster chisels are OK and certainly wouldn't hinder anybody's woodwork efforts. And so on....




Jacob, perhaps a change of name for the coming new year - 'Brian' is a good one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk


:wink:


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

I just wished people had a more balanced view. I get bored stiff with LN this and LV that, and then "rubbish chisels made of cheese" , mirror polished faces, and so on. I don't think it does anybody any favours (except the tool sellers of course). 
For someone just wanting to do woodwork it's a big distraction. and could put them off for life - especially the astonishing sharpening techniques now taken for granted.
If I ran a beginners woodwork course I think I'd kit them all out with very ordinary stuff and have that as the first challenge!


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

No skills":1d47ldff said:


> > The answer is balance - everybody is so keen to dismiss ordinary tools, which is a great pity. The £7 saw I posted about above is actually excellent *but I'm regarded as a blasphemer*. Those Axminster chisels are OK and certainly wouldn't hinder anybody's woodwork efforts. And so on....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :lol: :lol:


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## Modernist (23 Dec 2011)

No skills":1x8ky2c6 said:


> > The answer is balance - everybody is so keen to dismiss ordinary tools, which is a great pity. The £7 saw I posted about above is actually excellent *but I'm regarded as a blasphemer*. Those Axminster chisels are OK and certainly wouldn't hinder anybody's woodwork efforts. And so on....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ey watchit you :evil:


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## No skills (24 Dec 2011)

Ah dang! :lol:


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## Racers (24 Dec 2011)

Jacob

No one forces you to read the threads, so why not just stick to woodworking and leave up in peace to polish our chisels.
We don't need or want to be saved, and it would probbably lower your blood presure.

Happy Christmas.

Pete


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## Karl (24 Dec 2011)

Modernist":1pa58azm said:


> What would you call it? I was not alone in finding it unacceptable and IIRC it was your post that was actually removed at the time.



I found it somewhat distasteful too Brian. It was interesting that the mods agreed with me and removed the original post, though subsequent ones remained.

Nothing against DC, or RC for that matter. 

Cheers

Karl


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## Modernist (24 Dec 2011)

A timely illustration of what is wrong in woodworking is this item, coincidentally posted on the current FW web edition

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/433 ... ng-eletter

There is nothing wrong with marketing events to sell tools but it rather demeans the craft of fine cabinetmaking. As Jacob regularly and correctly points out some new arrivals take this stuff as gospel - at their cost.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2011)

Racers":24as6v5p said:


> Jacob
> 
> No one forces you to read the threads, so why not just stick to woodworking and leave up in peace to polish our chisels.


We would do, except you all behave as though you have discovered the one true way - believe me you most definitely haven't!


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## No skills (24 Dec 2011)

Having just looked at the video linked, seems like a fairly harmless bit of fun (imo) - surely only the youngest of wood workers would see this and think that this is the way things are done?

There are the odd positive to be had though, young folk might be attracted to try wood working as a result of little stunts like that. I believe as a hobby (at least) wood working lacks interest from most young folk.

But perhaps that wasnt the point of the post, (?) apologies if not.

And merry xmas!

:ho2


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## bobbybirds (25 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3c81bhxu said:


> Racers":3c81bhxu said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob
> ...



Again kind sir... Pot... Kettle... Black... 

I fear that if you ever unclenched your insides may fall out. So sad someone can become so jaded and bitter they must try to make others who disagree feel less worthy...


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## GazPal (29 Dec 2011)

One drawback with recommending high end tools after virtually every enquiry is that a false impression can be made in terms of useable tools for novice/beginner/aspiring woodworkers. Yes, it's sound advice to buy the best possible tools for the job, but not if the initial investment outweighs justifiable expense where e.g. someone wishes to make a gift box for a loved one, or hang a couple of doors. It'd potentially prove cheaper for the enthusiast to employ someone else to do the work or buy a pre-made item and begs the question regarding practical start up tooling costs.

Typically enthused over
£48 per LN chisel (Basic set of 4 bevel edged or a single)
£108 per LN dovetail saw
£196 per LN rip/crosscut saw
£281 per LN #5 jack plane/£260 per LN #4 smoothing plane (Without setting foot on the bevel up or bevel down bandwagon)
£159 per Veritas standard block plane

One fell swoop investing in a chisel, 2 saws, plus bench and block plane suited to box work equals a potentially recommended £782 worth of spending before timber, work bench, finishing materials, sharpening kit, etc., have even entered the equation. By all means buy what your pocket book can afford and make educated decisions, but there's a vast difference between what a professional/keen amateur can justify spending and what is realistically justifiable for a casual entry into the world of woodworking.

A starter woodworking kit (Before considering areas of speciality) IMHO should not exceed affordable levels for the participant and such levels of investment are best left until a degree of experience has been gained and the enthusiast is able to make more informed personal decisions regarding tooling. Professional quality tools don't necessarily cost as much and a basic kit can be had for less than £100.


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## nanowire (29 Dec 2011)

GazPal":1n6htdda said:


> One drawback with recommending high end tools after virtually every enquiry is that a false impression can be made in terms of useable tools for novice/beginner/aspiring woodworkers. Yes, it's sound advice to buy the best possible tools for the job, but not if the initial investment outweighs justifiable expense where e.g. someone wishes to make a gift box for a loved one, or hang a couple of doors. It'd potentially prove cheaper for the enthusiast to employ someone else to do the work or buy a pre-made item and begs the question regarding practical start up tooling costs.
> 
> Typically enthused over
> £48 per LN chisel (Basic set of 4 bevel edged or a single)
> ...



Good, balanced post. I.e. it's nothing wrong with high quality, expensive hand tools but it is way to easy for the novice (like me) to get the impression that they are must haves. There is no shortage of advices regarding the high end side of tools but earnest reports of OK+ ones are scarcer...


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## Aled Dafis (29 Dec 2011)

This is where we must thank the likes of Matthew at Workshop Heaven for working with the manufacturers to offer us a superb blend of quality and more affordable prices. To me, his Quangsheng planes and Narex chisels offer the best bang for your buck available at the moment. I'm afraid that a beginners set up will still not creep nder the £100 mark, but will be a dammed sight closer than the LN equivalents.


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## Aled Dafis (29 Dec 2011)

GazPal":ou9ovxrd said:


> ...
> Typically enthused over
> £48 per LN chisel (Basic set of 4 bevel edged or a single)
> £108 per LN dovetail saw
> ...



I've just been on Matthew's site for a quick comparison and what I would advise a dedicated beginner to go for.

Narex 8116 Chisels - set of 6 £66.50
Quangsheng #5 - £109.50
Gyokucho 240mm Kataba (a good all round saw for starters) - £32

That makes a grand total of £208 for a basic staters kit which could of course be added to as you progress.

Cheers
Aled


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2011)

I'd go for a Spear & Jackson tenon saw typically about £10 on ebay, any old chisels £2ish each (or that Axminster set at £11) and a 4 or 5 on ebay again from £10 to £20.
Say £50 max for some very good tools. They have never been cheaper but presumably it won't last forever.

PS I'd avoid "sets". They are just a tool sellers way of making you buy more than you need.


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## Alf (29 Dec 2011)

"Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll: 

Because the alternatives weren't there when I started, I've had considerable experience in getting "cheap" old tools in working order. It's a great way to learn about tool construction, metal-working and old tools, but it's a really lousy way to be a woodworker. For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep. You're not just learning how to sharpen and what sharp really is, but how to grind an initial bevel (which even some experienced woodworkers still regard as something to be avoided, the wusses...). Not just a matter of learning how to set the frog, but finding out if you've actually got a frog that's still fit for purpose; not just learning what a cap iron is, but maybe painfully finding out that someone swapped yours at some point and it won't work in that plane. Meanwhile, you're losing more and more confidence because _it must be you_, right? Bad workman blames his tools, and all that jazz. Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2011)

Alf":1gw6nokm said:


> ....For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep.


Not that steep. Take saws to saw doctors for starters. Any fool can sharpen a chisel or a plane on a double sided oil stone - the difficulty has been highly exaggerated in recent years! 
If you're in it for the working of wood you've got to get to grips with these things anyway.


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## James C (29 Dec 2011)

You don't have to be a mechanic to enjoy driving. I am enjoying the learning curve of overhauling tools and equipment before beginning woodwork as I find it helps me understand everything more but some won't want to do so.


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## robcosman (29 Dec 2011)

Alf":1kv5j7gt said:


> "Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll:
> 
> Because the alternatives weren't there when I started, I've had considerable experience in getting "cheap" old tools in working order. It's a great way to learn about tool construction, metal-working and old tools, but it's a really lousy way to be a woodworker. For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep. You're not just learning how to sharpen and what sharp really is, but how to grind an initial bevel (which even some experienced woodworkers still regard as something to be avoided, the wusses...). Not just a matter of learning how to set the frog, but finding out if you've actually got a frog that's still fit for purpose; not just learning what a cap iron is, but maybe painfully finding out that someone swapped yours at some point and it won't work in that plane. Meanwhile, you're losing more and more confidence because _it must be you_, right? Bad workman blames his tools, and all that jazz. Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.




ALF, BEST POST ON THIS THREAD, WELL SAID!
ROB


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## Aled Dafis (29 Dec 2011)

robcosman":xwhg3vau said:


> Alf":xwhg3vau said:
> 
> 
> > "Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll:
> ...



Well Said Alf!! (and Rob) We've all been through the same process, and it isn't until you try a properly made/tuned plane/chisel/saw that you realise what can be achieved. This process is just becoming a little cheaper now, thanks to the offerings available at Workshopheaven and the likes.

Chers
Aled


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2011)

Alf":1xlr2pb8 said:


> ............ Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.


Oh dear what a pessimist!
OK if you live on a desert island and the only connection to the outside world is a tool ordering facility of some sort :shock: , then you might want them to be spot on. That is, if you were a beginner, lacking in confidence, tending to give up easily, slightly feeble minded etc etc. 
But any practical person is going to have a crack, and will get there one way or another.
Anyway we are awash with info, books, mags, and the internet, not to mention other people, woodwork classes and so on. Too much information, too many would-be mentors.

An idle thought; the notion that sharpening is inherently difficult - I wonder how and when that came to be so widespread. Could it be the net and a "viral" spread of misinformation? Everybody used to manage in the old days, schoolkids, amateurs etc. Not very well at first perhaps, but unless you have a go you won't get any better!

Just sharpened my £8 S&J tenon saw. It is excellent. Paid too much though, they go for a lot less quite often.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2011)

Aled Dafis":2biil4ff said:


> .......We've all been through the same process, and it isn't until you try a properly made/tuned plane/chisel/saw that you realise what can be achieved.


True if you give up early, but most of us get there under our own steam with some very indifferent bits of kit!


> This process is just becoming a little cheaper now, thanks to the offerings available at Workshopheaven and the likes.....


 :lol: Is that a joke? It's never been more expensive to get started up - if you believe this sort of thing!

PS I could have missed it but I could not find a trad double sided oilstone in the Axi or WH catalogues. Hmm.


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## andy king (29 Dec 2011)

Jacob":13hd5t29 said:


> :lol: Is that a joke? It's never been more expensive to get started up - if you believe this sort of thing!


I'd disagree with that, and by an earlier posting in the chisels thread, the evidence is there. You're own comments on that pretty well confirming so.
I commented on your posting about the price then to the price now that you had determined (notably edited after i posted a couple of comments...)
BUT... When I was learning in 1977 and beyond, there was not the budget, pound shop/diy stuff available that there is now, nor was there the chance of picking up bargains at the car boot - old chisels, planes and so forth.
If you wanted to do woodwork, you had to pay decent money to do so.
There were cheaper versions available, S&J did cheaper saws within their range, Stanley, Marples etc likewise, and also cheaper ranges from the likes of Footprint but the price still relatively high.
The woodworking trade was driven by handtools then, no such luxury of powertools, (hire shops, and some bigger companies yes, but the general trade, hobby or DIYer, not so only a Yankee screwdriver the nearest you would come to owning a tool to speed up your work.
The cost of tools then are as costly as now for the ones the trade would go for, so a set of chisles at about £40, saws at £20 each and so forth are high equivelents now.
I know... I bought mine back then and it took me a long while to amount that basic set on an apprentice wage of £16 a week.
I think that was around 1/4 the tradesman wage as I recall, so around £65-70 for the tradesman. A big shell out for anyone back then before the influx of the chinese market and powertool evolution.
OK, you can get those expensive tools now for pennies or a few pounds if you look around, but to say that it costs more now isn't correct.
A great example Jacob would be your own kit of tools you were given at the end of your TOP's course.
As I recall, that was a basic set of decent quality tools with a value of around £200, and all rated as 'trade' items, no cheap budget stuff within, it was designed for you to go out on site and earn a living.
Esentially 2-3 weeks wages for any tradesman to buy, so by todays prices/cost of living - how much to do the same?
To get hold of the old tools available now, you had to be in the right place at the right time when one of the old boys was retiring and selling off his kit, but with the woodworking game still very much hand tool driven, those prices were still quite high, much the same as selling on a LN tool now for instance.
I'd say back then, (and not just when i was learning, but anywhere before the cheap Far East stuff and powertools took over) anyone looking to do woodwork would be paying more for the stuff they needed compared to now.
I often wonder, had powertools never been invented and we had to do our work by hand, would we be able to pick up the old woodworking tools we can now for peanuts if everyone was still reliant on them?


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2011)

It's not working for this chap post644562.html#p644562
Shouldn't laugh but people do have ridiculously high expectations of these tools even though they are quite ordinary (except for the finish and the price. :shock
If he'd bought a straight forwards old brit saw I expect he would just have taken it to a saw doctor or set about it himself.


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## Alf (29 Dec 2011)

Jacob":27qottxn said:


> Alf":27qottxn said:
> 
> 
> > ....For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep.
> ...


Did you start from scratch, Jacob? In a shed with no-one but yourself to show you how to proceed? No, you went on a course. You had someone to guide you. Start again, from scratch, with no-one to help you but what you read (and who you read is entirely down to who you choose to read, because no-one's guiding you there either) Now tell me the learning curve isn't steep. You have to really, really love woodworking to be female and with no tools beyond a desk and a scalpel to get where I have. Try it in another life sometime. I don't tell you how to make sash windows, and in return you'll damn well do me the courtesy of knowing exactly how hard it is to learn how to work wood when you start with absolutely _nothing_ to go on.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2011)

Alf":uar1d15p said:


> Jacob":uar1d15p said:
> 
> 
> > Alf":uar1d15p said:
> ...


I didn't start with a course. I did a bit at school which was rapidly forgotten, then started (much later) with no-one to help but what I read - mostly mags. I did a course much much later, all hand tool work.
But at no time was the learning curve the slightest bit assisted by buying premium tools, as distinct from any old tools as available. Even if they were ready to use, honed, tuned, fettled, flattened, polished, I would have blunted them fairly quickly, as would anybody who used them.
The premium tool thing is really a side line and not that relevant to any individual's woodworking development. Mainly because the basic tools are simple and there can never be that much difference between one simple tool and another.
There is no significant difference between James-1986s £140 LN tenon saw referred to above, and my £8 ebay S&J - except mine works and his doesn't. If both were sharpened and set identically they would work identically.


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## andy king (29 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3fuvvc9e said:


> There is no significant difference between James-1986s £140 LN tenon saw referred to above, and my £8 ebay S&J - except mine works and his doesn't. If both were sharpened and set identically they would work identically.



No, maybe no significant difference, but bear in mind that Awkwood commented on prices from an early 80's tool catalogue on the chisels thread:


> Compare this to other top quality tools of the time eg. a 12" nonpareil tenon saw £30.41


so by today's prices, that Nonpariel would be equal or more than the Lie Nielsen.
Likewise, the £8 S&J you bought would be maybe slightly cheaper back then judging by the handle style, but even so, in it's day, considerably more than the £8 you paid, and also an expensive purchase back then. I'd guess at least £20, so what would that be in today's terms?
Saying it can be picked up cheaper now isn't really valid, and dismissing someone for making a purchase of the current top end stuff equally unfair.
The comments i made earlier ring true - there was little chance to pick up cheap tools back then, it was good quality at a high price compared to weekly earnings, and those that bought them, tended to hold on to them or sell them to others at a high secondhand value, more often than not, upon retirement.
The way we woodwork now has moved the goalposts in my opinion, and it means that these older tools are no longer cherished or valued like they used to be, and that's driven the prices down to where they are now generally easily available tools.
Saying cheap secondhand ebay stuff is better is fine, but remember, these were never cheap when originally available, they were top end tools. I doubt the owners got slated for buying them back then?
Essentially, your £8 ebay saw was a relatively high priced saw in its day, much the same as the LN now.


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2011)

andy king":152c0qxo said:


> .......
> Saying cheap secondhand ebay stuff is better is fine, but remember, these were never cheap when originally available, they were top end tools. I doubt the owners got slated for buying them back then?


I don't slate the owners for buying posh tools, if buyers want to treat themselves that's OK obviously. But the premium tools are very oversold and over promoted IMHO and the claims made on their behalf are somewhat exaggerated.


> Essentially, your £8 ebay saw was a relatively high priced saw in its day, much the same as the LN now.


Not sure quite how the prices compare but I agree the S&J was a goodun in it's day (and still is). But they are dirt cheap now and exceedingly good value, as are planes and other tools of 50 years ago. More of these older tools are being recognised as good value - they used to get totally dismissed.


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## Modernist (29 Dec 2011)

Strangely enough I have had a foot in both camps. I like accumulating a range of quality tools and bought a LN tenon saw second hand. To my great surprise and disappointment I couldn't get on with it. It seemed light and flimsy compared to my usual fare of a 60 year old GHE Charlesworth from Sheffield and Disston and I didn't find the handle comfortable so it went back on ebay and I made a profit  

I do believe modern quality planes work better than their predecessors but I have yet to see anything so convincing on saws. I use re-handled S & J Professionals for hand saws and they are excellent and probably better than my Disston panel saw in terms of steel quality. Even the more esoteric variable pitch DT saws work fine but are going to be problematic to sharpen, let alone re-cut.

Conclusion - it is difficult to be dogmatic on either side of the argument.


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## andy king (30 Dec 2011)

Hi Brian,

I agree.
I still believe a folded brass back saw has better merit over the new glued method, you get more weight and the saw can be maintained easily should anything start to move. I reckon the old style Thomas Flinn Pax handle was pretty good of the new breed, if slightly chunky, and the saw itself excellent.
Planes are different, old planes are well worth tweaking if you know what to do if it needs it, but the new standard stuff is pretty ropey. 
I wonder what the college tutors recommend now for the carpentry/joinery trades? 
In my day we were told Stanley, Marples, Disston, Tyzack, S&J and so forth as the brands to buy for hand tools, but TBH, the current 'trade' Baileys are poor, but the rub lies in a new kid coming into the trade, or likewise a would be woodworker wanting to have a go.
Buying new but buying poorly would put them off, questioning their own abilities (as commented on earlier in the thread) but buying secondhand could be equally prblematic if you don't know what you are looking for, or how to set things up/rejuvinate/ressurect if they are in need of it.
With saws especially, the chances are they will need some work, and even those in the trade often struggle here.
At least buying new and buying above basic budget level should at least give anyone new to the game a chance to assess whether they or the tools are at fault and go from there.
Easy to say the info needed to buy secondhand and tweak is here on the forums, but how many people are actually active on these? A very small band of people, so a new woodworker would maybe not find that info when needed.
From my own woodworking point oif view, I rarely use my old resharpenable handsaws nowadays, (I demo at shows how to sharpen saws, even if different from the 'trad' way, (but now seemingly not so obscure...)) I find the 'Jack' saws do the majority of that side of things well, you rarely use handsaws for premium jointing stuff.... 
I had no choice when I was younger, cutting sheet materials as well as other stuff soon took the edge off a saw - I was pretty impressed when the hardpoints arrived on the scene!
You don't really use handsaws for anything other than general work in most instances, and the Jacks do the job for me.
On the plus side, having to sharpen saws regularly (anyone remember the 'sharpening time' allowance!) you get a good feel for how to do it, much the same as edge tool honing.
A tenon/dovetail is different, the hardpoint versions, while sharp, are over set, flimsy etc, and i still rate a good quality back saw highly in that area.
Mind you, this is all my own personal view, i've no doubt many disagree!

cheers,
Andy


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2011)

andy king":3ad8gfaz said:


> ..........
> A great example Jacob would be your own kit of tools you were given at the end of your TOP's course.
> As I recall, that was a basic set of decent quality tools with a value of around £200, and all rated as 'trade' items, no cheap budget stuff within, it was designed for you to go out on site and earn a living.......


You recall correctly. The idea was that you could get out there and work, which most did - you weren't there for fun - you had to be fairly committed to put up with the open prison style regime and the cast of eccentrics; stranger than Porridge! (TV).
There were "better" quality tools around (premium tools is not a new concept) but the TOPS set was, as you say, decent. £200 worth comes to mind but I've no idea of the retail prices in 1982

Here's the list, the official version of the essential minimum kit for a working joiner. Still got nearly all of it:
Record 5 1/2 jack plane
Sanderson & Kayser:
26" hand saw 6tpi
22" panel saw 10tpi
14" tenon saw 14tpi
Marples 3 firmer chisels 1" 3/4" 1/2" 
Rabone Combination square
Whitehill 16oz claw hammer
Nail pullers (Footprint?)
sliding bevel (poor quality)
double sided oil stone 
Large slotted cabinet screwdriver (no 14s?)
Medium sized slotted ratchet screwdriver
2 ft boxwood rule
2no nail punchs
Stanley brace & bit
one 32mm bit for yale locks.
mallet
S&J carpenters axe
marking gauge
bradawl
brass face marples spirit level

£100 worth on ebay at today's prices?


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## pedder (30 Dec 2011)

Am I the only one having a déjà-vu ?

:wink:


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## Doug B (30 Dec 2011)

pedder":1evx095k said:


> Am I the only one having a déjà-vu ?




Earl Grey for me, this time in the morning.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2011)

Typhoo for me.
Deja vu - Sorry yes I keep revisiting this list, partly because the question of a basic kit keeps coming up. I've just remembered another item - there must have been a 5/8" auger bit for the brace.
The kit equipped us (in theory) to do very general joinery e.g. making and fitting a door or a window.
Wandered off a bit this thread. :roll:


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## Modernist (30 Dec 2011)

Just to jerk us back to saws I snapped a bunch of teeth off my Jap dovetail saw last week trimming ebony splines off a mitre joint. I was surprised but perhaps shouldn't have been. The even more surprising thing is the amount of hot air generated about saws which need to stay on softwood. (TBF the Jap tool study group are aware of this)

I don't think I'll bother replacing it.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2011)

Modernist":3kvce7nm said:


> Just to jerk us back to saws I snapped a bunch of teeth off my Jap dovetail saw last week trimming ebony splines off a mitre joint. I was surprised but perhaps shouldn't have been. The even more surprising thing is the amount of hot air generated about saws which need to stay on softwood. (TBF the Jap tool study group are aware of this)
> 
> I don't think I'll bother replacing it.


Right - that's another one to avoid!
If anything I think this thread (and the parallel LN thread) shows that sharpening and set is more important than saw quality - particularly if it's wrong to start with.
So would the advice to the OP be just to jump in with both feet as there is no simple answer - but sharpening is the key?
Personally what I've got from this thread is a nice saw for only £8!


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## Modernist (30 Dec 2011)

andy king":3jbg66mi said:


> From my own woodworking point oif view, I rarely use my old resharpenable handsaws nowadays, (I demo at shows how to sharpen saws, even if different from the 'trad' way, (but now seemingly not so obscure...)) I find the 'Jack' saws do the majority of that side of things well, you rarely use handsaws for premium jointing stuff....



Nearly all handsaw work is now done with a plug on the end but for the infrequent times when it is needed, or sometimes just for the exercise cutting some boards to length, I prefer a good trad handsaw to a HP Jack which are and feel cheap and therefore don't give off much pleasure. 

If I had to earn my living from woodwork it might be different. The way the economy is going I might get the chance shortly :lol:


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## GazPal (30 Dec 2011)

Alf":cu5ouptx said:


> "Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll:
> 
> Because the alternatives weren't there when I started, I've had considerable experience in getting "cheap" old tools in working order. It's a great way to learn about tool construction, metal-working and old tools, but it's a really lousy way to be a woodworker. For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep. You're not just learning how to sharpen and what sharp really is, but how to grind an initial bevel (which even some experienced woodworkers still regard as something to be avoided, the wusses...). Not just a matter of learning how to set the frog, but finding out if you've actually got a frog that's still fit for purpose; not just learning what a cap iron is, but maybe painfully finding out that someone swapped yours at some point and it won't work in that plane. Meanwhile, you're losing more and more confidence because _it must be you_, right? Bad workman blames his tools, and all that jazz. Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.



"Typically enthused over" means precisely that and in all honesty the best means by which one can advance in any craft with any confidence is via the mentoring route. Otherwise it's a hit and miss affair and there's no real need to assume any form of "bah, humbugging" anyone's enthusiasm from myself or any of the other craftsmen out there, UNLESS someone's attempting to guide newcomers into buying high end tools without gauging their (i) available budget and (ii) the intended (Not assumed) use for the tools. Of course people's perspectives can and do change, but why plan a tool list for someone without knowing more about what they intend to do with the tools? 

I'd have a heart attack if approaching the topic as a newcomer wishing to swing a few doors, but be zealously informed that I need invest several hundred pounds into tooling up with everything but the kitchen sink, when all I need is a sharp pencil and inexpensive set of tools, which can be added to or improved upon if I wish to move ahead with other projects.

-----------------

If buying on a casual/beginner basis I'd recommend Irwin Jack saws as perfectly useable tools and think about re-sharpenable alternatives if the mood takes you and you wish to save a few quid by avoiding the disposable saw route. They're perfectly decent saws.


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## Harbo (30 Dec 2011)

Another thread that has gone ballistic.
Read the OP - the question was about whether to buy a tenon or a D/T!

Rod


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## Modernist (30 Dec 2011)

Harbo":19299lr0 said:


> Another thread that has gone ballistic.
> Read the OP - the question was about whether to buy a tenon or a D/T!
> 
> Rod



He's probably worked out what to do by now  

Forums are there to promote discussion - which they do.


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## Paul Chapman (30 Dec 2011)

Modernist":2hcirov0 said:


> Forums are there to promote discussion - which they do.



But to a decreasing extent, unfortunately. All a bit grim really......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2011)

Paul Chapman":39nf4kkp said:


> Modernist":39nf4kkp said:
> 
> 
> > Forums are there to promote discussion - which they do.
> ...


Isn't a 133 post discussion long enough for you Paul? Feel free to chip in if you want to keep it going!


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## jimi43 (31 Dec 2011)

I'm not at all fanatical about either Western or Japanese style saws...I just happen to have both and I have to say that you can take teeth off the latter if you are not using it carefully. That being said the Huntley Oak Japanese style saw...







....is a great development which overcomes zealous use on really hardwoods.

I actually cut this lignum vitae bowl in half with it.....






...I would say that is a fairly good test!






It still has all the teeth and they are all just as sharp as they were before this test.

It's horses for courses really....I love my old 100 year old Sorby backsaw too...but since I was more happy replacing the Huntley Oak than screwing up the Pedder-sharpened Sorby....I decided not to risk it! :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## Modernist (31 Dec 2011)

That's the first time I've seen the Huntley saw although I was aware of it as I suggested above. I wasn't using my Ax Jap DT saw "zealously" I was just trimming some 3mm thick ebony splines. It's not just the brittle teeth that put me off a replacement, I find I am not so comfortable using pull saws and prefer a Disston style handle which I find easier to control.

I also note the point above about LN tenon saws. I don't think this issue about it being a precision instrument, rather than a tool for lopping off tenon ends, is made sufficiently strongly. After all it is important. 

There is plenty of room for all the above, and more, but people have to make informed choices if they are to avoid (expensive) disappointment.


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## No skills (31 Dec 2011)

I like the cut of the japanese saws I have owned but I have had teeth snap off one first cut out of the box. Neither hardwood or ham-fistedness* (new word any one?  ) was involved.

What makes the Huntley Oak saw better than others?



* of which I am often guilty


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## condeesteso (31 Dec 2011)

I appreciate this has drifted off-thread a bit. But at least this is about saws. I recently lost some teeth off a Japanese saw cross-cutting bog oak, and taking reasonable care doing it. Is it the case that Japanese tools have been mainly developed (over centuries) to work softwoods? The Huntley (I tried Jim's) seems slightly beefed-up and hence better suited to the hard stuff. I would not have dreamed of cutting that LV of Jim's with the more conventional Japanese saw. But if you like pull-saws and work hardwoods I'd say the Huntley is a very good option.
One last thing re old and new - I really like thin-kerfs, and that is where the Japanese and finer new western saws excel I feel.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2011)

condeesteso":vrbfuj24 said:


> ..... - I really like thin-kerfs, .....


Why? Seems pointless, and even more so if it requires fragile saws which are difficult to use. Nobody looks at saw kerfs in the finished article - and if they can see them its a mistake!


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## No skills (31 Dec 2011)

Which ones are difficult to use?


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2011)

No skills":1g8uxjsl said:


> Which ones are difficult to use?


The ones whose teeth break off for starters.
NB junior hacksaws cut neat thin kerfs and their teeth don't break off!


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## condeesteso (31 Dec 2011)

I totally accept what you say Jacob - it's just me. I like thin kerf because [1] the mechanical efficiency (half the stock removed is half the waste, half the mechanical effort); [2] they demand precision - and that is my personal pursuit. I like them a lot on my bandsaw, my table saw and all my handsaws. I was amazed when I got my Two Lawyers Gents saw -it really is phenomenal for being super-thin, very fast, very true tracking. As you must know I love older tools, but there are some developments that do make a big impression, on me at least.
I will say though that the thin-kerf blades (machine or hand) will demand more care in use. It's a lot easier to knacker them, but for me that is what hones the skills. I'm happy just being me, and I work at getting tighter and finer in all I do (in the workshop that is... in the kitchen it's just a mess.)

HAPPY NEW YEAR Y'ALL


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2011)

Right. I don't think efficiency comes into it. Cross cutting teeth effectively cut 2 nicks and the wood fibre between falls out whatever the set.You just get bigger or smaller sawdust for the same effort. Rip cut is all cut, so in theory narrow is easier, but with a narrow kerf you are going to get more friction and less ability to steer and free up the blade.

It's easy to get drawn in to toolie mythology and allow common sense to evaporate. If you want to reduce the effort of sawing you go for fewer teeth, coarser set, thicker blades. A 4tpi rip saw would race down a board like a chain saw and finish before a thin kerf fine-tooth saw would get started! Similarly with crosscutting.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2012)

jimi43":25jy3f56 said:


> I'm not at all fanatical about either Western or Japanese style saws...I just happen to have both and I have to say that you can take teeth off the latter if you are not using it carefully. That being said the Huntley Oak Japanese style saw...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marvellous what you can do with a flimsy jap saw but it'd be a lot quicker to cut your bowl in half with a conventional sharp 10tpi panel saw or similar, and the teeth never ever break unless you hit a nail.


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## No skills (1 Jan 2012)

Obviously a saw with missing teeth is difficult to use  but I have only had the one saw break that wasnt misstreated.

Back to hard to use... japanese pull saws were the first handsaws I had ever used (maybe hacksaws first, but thats just being picky) and I got the hang of using them pretty quickly/easily. 
My first foray into western saws wasnt so successfull and it took me a lot longer before I could cut in a reasonable fashion, perhaps I was tainted by the japanese saws use first but I didnt like them for a fair while.

Western are more durable and perhaps steerable in cut (imo) but I find it easier cutting a straight line with the japanese saws and dont have to correct as much.

JME


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## xy mosian (1 Jan 2012)

Saw kerfs. When cutting dovetails, if the saw kerf is wide enough to turn a coping saw blade within, surely this reduces the clean up work required.

Just a thought.
xy


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## Modernist (1 Jan 2012)

xy mosian":3de0i99x said:


> Saw kerfs. When cutting dovetails, if the saw kerf is wide enough to turn a coping saw blade within, surely this reduces the clean up work required.
> 
> Just a thought.
> xy



I think it is a very valid thought!


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## jimi43 (1 Jan 2012)

> Marvellous what you can do with a flimsy jap saw but it'd be a lot quicker to cut your bowl in half with a conventional sharp 10tpi panel saw or similar, and the teeth never ever break unless you hit a nail.



Sometimes Jacob...I'm convinced you must have been a chippy on the Arizona..... :roll: 

Jim


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2012)

jimi43":2a8d27eq said:


> > Marvellous what you can do with a flimsy jap saw but it'd be a lot quicker to cut your bowl in half with a conventional sharp 10tpi panel saw or similar, and the teeth never ever break unless you hit a nail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What you mean the Arizona (still) sunk at Pearl harbour? A chippy with an anti jap chip? No, not at all, I like all things Japanese. Have been there (only a week in Tokyo and vicinity) and would love to go again.
This has nothing at all to do with a western fad for fiddling about with japanese saws!


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## condeesteso (2 Jan 2012)

Jacob":3u8lyrz5 said:


> Right. I don't think efficiency comes into it. Cross cutting teeth effectively cut 2 nicks and the wood fibre between falls out whatever the set.You just get bigger or smaller sawdust for the same effort. Rip cut is all cut, so in theory narrow is easier, but with a narrow kerf you are going to get more friction and less ability to steer and free up the blade.
> 
> It's easy to get drawn in to toolie mythology and allow common sense to evaporate. If you want to reduce the effort of sawing you go for fewer teeth, coarser set, thicker blades. A 4tpi rip saw would race down a board like a chain saw and finish before a thin kerf fine-tooth saw would get started! Similarly with crosscutting.



Mostly text book correct of course - but in actual practice, and tpi for tpi, the fine kerf rip will cut faster with less effort than the coarse one. And the point re narrow kerf and friction is wrong, both technically and in practice.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2012)

condeesteso":18h95sfs said:


> Jacob":18h95sfs said:
> 
> 
> > Right. I don't think efficiency comes into it. Cross cutting teeth effectively cut 2 nicks and the wood fibre between falls out whatever the set.You just get bigger or smaller sawdust for the same effort. Rip cut is all cut, so in theory narrow is easier, but with a narrow kerf you are going to get more friction and less ability to steer and free up the blade.
> ...


I put a £100 on me being faster than you with a rip saw compared to a fine tooth fine kerf japanese (or any other nationality) saw, if I was a betting man!. Basically you are wrong, for fairly obvious reasons I would have thought.


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## condeesteso (2 Jan 2012)

Jacob - you are the master of the last word of course, and you can have it. But if you re-read your post quoted above, and my response, it may be useful.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2012)

condeesteso":1vj8evit said:


> Jacob - you are the master of the last word of course, and you can have it. But if you re-read your post quoted above, and my response, it may be useful.


Er, oh yes tpi for tpi? You are still wrong though. Zero set will bind and be inefficient, probably impossible. As you increase the set there will be an optimum width for efficiency - depending on sharpness, skill etc. We have James-1986s description of not enough set. post644874.html#p644874
Too fine - no good.


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## condeesteso (2 Jan 2012)

Jacob - are you confusing fine kerf with no set? Back to your books mate :wink:


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2012)

condeesteso":lk3kwdwt said:


> Jacob - are you confusing fine kerf with no set?


Quite possibly. Less set means finer kerf after all. As does thinner blade. Thin blade _and_ fine set basically means careful slow sawing, and if the set is too fine then the effort required may be too much for the thin blade. Thin blade also means smaller teeth (higher tpi, not enough strength for larger teeth) which in turn increases the cutting effort
As with most things , there may be a happy medium, but in general, thick blade, big teeth, wide set, is faster and less effort than the opposite, but may produce a coarser cut.


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## Racers (2 Jan 2012)

Hi, Jacob

So doing more work with a wider saw with bigger teeth uses less effort?

Don't think so, but I will guess you will just bang on as usual.


“It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.” 
Mark Twain


Pete


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2012)

Racers":1mbl8rml said:


> Hi, Jacob
> 
> So doing more work with a wider saw with bigger teeth uses less effort?
> ....
> ...


True in general yes. That's why thin saws with small teeth are only used for fine work, and not for cutting down trees etc. Why am I having to explain this?
There is a simple reason - a fine tooth saw makes more cuts, one tooth after another, for a given amount of movement. 32 tpi is 32 little cuts per inch of movement.
This produces finer sawdust, which demonstrates this i.e.the waste from the kerf has been cut into smaller pieces. This takes longer and more effort. It would do.
It's obvious. Just try a fine tooth and a coarse tooth saw for yourself on the same bit of wood using the same amount of effort.
Or ask yourself why on earth anyone would use a coarse tooth saw ever, if it's more work.


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## Racers (2 Jan 2012)

Mmmm

You still don't get it do you.

Pete


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## condeesteso (2 Jan 2012)

I was intending to leave this well alone, but it's a flame and I'm a moth.
Jacob firmly believes in something but exactly what becomes unclear, as his points keep shifting and when scrutinised become weak.
I'm guessing Jacob believes in big western saws with a fairly coarse pitch, and a fair amount of set. But there are false trails along the way - efficiency for example. Efficiency is ratio of output over input and all else being equal thin kerf is more efficient. A thin blade stock can have plenty of set, loads of clearance, no significant friction. So can a thicker one of course.
What is really missing here is scale - if I make precision boxes I know what I need to cut the joints. If you Jacob make great big frames you know what you need.
There is no right or wrong, and I find it irritating when an opinion is given [a] stated as if it were a fact and * without context (scale, application, whatever.)

(yet more irritation on the way no doubt  )*


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## nanowire (3 Jan 2012)

condeesteso":dkbfja6j said:


> I was intending to leave this well alone, but it's a flame and I'm a moth.
> Jacob firmly believes in something but exactly what becomes unclear, as his points keep shifting and when scrutinised become weak.
> I'm guessing Jacob believes in big western saws with a fairly coarse pitch, and a fair amount of set. But there are false trails along the way - efficiency for example. Efficiency is ratio of output over input and all else being equal thin kerf is more efficient. A thin blade stock can have plenty of set, loads of clearance, no significant friction. So can a thicker one of course.
> What is really missing here is scale - if I make precision boxes I know what I need to cut the joints. If you Jacob make great big frames you know what you need.
> ...


*

One have to define on what criteria the efficiency is calculated; waste, power, torque or time. What you write is true under the given conditions i.e. all else being equal, like in comparison between a thin kerf and a "normal" circular saw blade of the same tpi, where the thin kerf needs less torque and power from the saw and gives less waste.
But normally, with handsaws, one compares saws with tpi that correlates with thickness. Then the consideration becomes time versus precision (and waste) where the thick, low tpi wins on time but looses on waste and precision against the thin, high tpi one. I suppose you all agree on that?*


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## GazPal (3 Jan 2012)

And then there's the fact many larger toothed western saws of quality can have minimal set due to taper ground plates and potentially breasted tooth lines. They can be as effortless in use as Japanese pull saws when set-up correctly and tpi matched to board thickness, which I think is what Jacob is referring to.


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## drmartin1981 (5 Jan 2012)

Im going to say tennon for a beginner, lots of practice too  like has already been said, just get stuck in and worry about the better tools when you get better.


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