# Thoughts on multi point locks for windows



## ColeyS1 (19 Sep 2019)

Do you think they would be more secure than traditional fasteners? I mostly make flush casements and with multi point locks it's fairly obvious where the angle grinder needs to be inserted into the joint to gain entry. 

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## Fitzroy (19 Sep 2019)

I think if someone wants in they will get in. Our old house doesn’t have the ‘right’ locks on the windows or doors. I have to declare this on the home insurance and it costs me £20 a year more. It would cost me several hundred to fit the ‘right’ locks everywhere. 

Fitz.


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## Trevanion (19 Sep 2019)

I love them, they pull the casement nice and neat against the draught seal and keep it from twisting. As far as security goes though I can see where you're coming from with the flush casement scenario, I don't usually make flush ones (and when I do it's always confirmed traditional fasteners) so it's not something I've ever really thought about. Possibly you could make a double step rebate in your frame and matching rebate around the casement (Even just on the bottom of the casement and frame, or side depending on how it opens) so that the keeps and lock are kept out of sight and out of attack range with a grinder.

Although 9 times out of 10 when a house is broken into it's usually a window smash, quick grab (In and out less than 3 minutes) job rather than a grinder or even a prybar, laminated glass is a huge deterrent. Plus I also think with Accoya windows the timber is more likely to fail than the fixings and fasteners when pryed open, with hardwood ones I imagine the glass would shatter when the window is pryed. When I was working for a company a few years ago one of the jobs we did had a break-in and they stole all the copper inside and an old rayburn, they pryed on the storm-proofing of an Accoya casement which ended up snapping off (2 growth rings, what do you expect? :roll which allowed them to then get the prybar into the rebate of the window and pry hard under the lock mechanism which in turn busted the glass. They honestly would've been better off with a hammer! :lol:. Of course, it was the local kleptomaniac and sidekick that were behind it and they ended up with a couple more months behind bars etc... Wasn't the greatest advert for the company at the time as the windows had only been in for a week or so :lol:

On paper they should be more secure than traditional fasteners, but if your glass isn't up to scratch or the window is a bit wimpy they won't help too much.



Fitzroy":3jqp4bul said:


> I think if someone wants in they will get in. Our old house doesn’t have the ‘right’ locks on the windows or doors. I have to declare this on the home insurance and it costs me £20 a year more. It would cost me several hundred to fit the ‘right’ locks everywhere.



A friend of mine who runs a pub bought the 'right' padlocks and showed me them saying how much they cost etc and how the insurance demanded they be used. I showd him a quick trick involving a screwdriver, got all the guts out and unlocked it all in under 20 seconds. The look on his face was great :lol: The old locks he had were far more secure.


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## ColeyS1 (20 Sep 2019)

Fitzroy":1hbb6pdn said:


> I think if someone wants in they will get in.


That's what I've always thought. I quite often use phosphorus bronze washered hinges similar to these






I suppose driving the pins out of those would be even easier, perhaps a little noisier.

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## ColeyS1 (20 Sep 2019)

Trevanion":2i90dx5d said:


> Possibly you could make a double step rebate in your frame and matching rebate around the casement (Even just on the bottom of the casement and frame, or side depending on how it opens) so that the keeps and lock are kept out of sight and out of attack range with a grinder.


The double step rebate would nearly get over the issue but I'm not sure if you would be able to get striking plates to fit. I had a ironmongery rep come in earlier in the week and he was trying to persuade me to start using his system. 





















I think even if the double idea rebate could work it would add a considerable amount of time to the job in machine setup and getting the leading edges to clear.
The sample window he showed also looked like it could save time, perhaps needing less skill to make. Hinges and striking plates are just screwed on into a groove that runs around the frame and sash. I've only ever known chopping in hinges and striking plates and trying to get them to fit neatly. I wonder whether its something a customer wouldn't even bat an eyelid to......? 
Lift off hinges also seem quite a nifty idea, it'd make installing slightly easier. 

I might knock up a sample window and see if it becomes popular. 

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## Jonathan S (20 Sep 2019)

Another fan of multi point here.
If you want security run the euro groove all the way around the sash, put in corner drives and then you can have mushrooms all around the sash, guess you could get a hinge that would also fit the euro groove, so simple to fit!
My observation is that the security on UK timber windows is very poor, same as here in Spain.
I left the uk many years ago so not familiar with all your suppliers, I have used VBH in the UK,I will try and find a link. Their tech guy knows more about multipoint locks than the manufactures.
I few years back Whitehill tooling there developing a system for a security windows....I think it was called "high performance window".....dont know if it ever got out to the mass.

https://www.vbhgb.com/

Jonathan


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## dzj (20 Sep 2019)

In Continental Europe, tilt&turn windows with multi point locks and a double step rebate are more/ less ubiquitous. They close well, as already mentioned, no hinges on the outside, nor is there anywhere to insert an angle grinder.
As with all things, there is a trade-off. The tooling is pricey, good hardware also, you need laminated stock... Takes a bit of time to learn to make them, too.


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## Doug71 (20 Sep 2019)

Coley, is that the tritus window system from Coastal? I looked at that a while ago but never got round to trying it, looked a clever system but thought the price of parts added up quite quickly. I have used Coastal for one of two bits and found them a decent firm, they seem to do some quality stuff. One thing that put me off them though was when I was speaking to one of their reps on the phone, he was setting up my account and asked how many people were employed in my company, when I said one (just me) he burst out laughing, and didn't seem very interested after that, cheeky sod.

Let us know how you get on with it.

Doug


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Sep 2019)

Is the money being spent to make the property thief proof or to deter thieves? I think if it were my money I'd have an alarm, PIR lights, cameras and Smartwater.
I know this is a little off tack, but if someone wants to get in, they'll get in. Any system is only as good as its weakest point - wouldn't someone just smash the window? I've a new Yale locking system on my front door that is said to be virtually impossible to get through ................ on a door with a 600mm plastic panel. :?


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## HappyHacker (20 Sep 2019)

Slightly off topic: When my insurance broker asked if I had window locks I said yes. She then asked could I guarantee that when the house was empty they had always been locked, I said no. She suggested that I do not say I have window locks as the insurance would not pay out if a thief got in via a window where the lock has not been locked. If there was an additional cost it was peanuts.


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## ColeyS1 (20 Sep 2019)

Jonathan S":2r2khch5 said:


> If you want security run the euro groove all the way around the sash, put in corner drives and then you can have mushrooms all around the sash,


I've not heard of those things before, I'll have to do some research. Thanks for the link Jonathan, I'll have a proper look tonight. 


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## ColeyS1 (20 Sep 2019)

dzj":36vvosqa said:


> In Continental Europe, tilt&turn windows with multi point locks and a double step rebate are more/ less ubiquitous. They close well, as already mentioned, no hinges on the outside, nor is there anywhere to insert an angle grinder.
> As with all things, there is a trade-off. The tooling is pricey, good hardware also, you need laminated stock... Takes a bit of time to learn to make them, too.


The tooling cost would probably put me off to be honest, unless it's something that can be produced using normal grooves, rebate blocks etc. Because most of what I do is like for like I'm not sure how often that style of window might get used.

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## ColeyS1 (20 Sep 2019)

Doug71":3rfyw7x4 said:


> Coley, is that the tritus window system from Coastal?


Well spotted Doug. It was from coastal and the name does sound familiar. As you say it does seem clever and well thought out but part of me cant help but feel I'm cutting corners by just screwing on hinges but then....is there really much structural benefit in chopping them in...what I would say is properly? Do the striking plates look half just being screwed on the surface ? I'm beginning to question my entire career ! Lol.
The system seems like it could be made the most of because someone relatively unskilled could just screw on the ironmongery and it would 'do the job' if that makes sense.


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## ColeyS1 (20 Sep 2019)

phil.p":15ohu72h said:


> Is the money being spent to make the property thief proof or to deter thieves? I think if it were my money I'd have an alarm, PIR lights, cameras and Smartwater.
> I know this is a little off tack, but if someone wants to get in, they'll get in. Any system is only as good as its weakest point - wouldn't someone just smash the window? I've a new Yale locking system on my front door that is said to be virtually impossible to get through ................ on a door with a 600mm plastic panel. :?


Not off tack at all Phil ;@) CCTV is so cheap now adays its gotta help deter the thieving scum.

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## The Bear (20 Sep 2019)

Fairly recently I bought new windows for my house (don’t have the time or machinery to make 17 windows). I went to several trade and renovation shows and looked at dozens of examples made. I was amazed by how many were supposed to be premium products and were truly awful. One of the most common problems was being able to see the locks between the frame and casement. Some of the gaps were huge. Some hid the locks with a weather seal. The best I found and ultimately bought had a double rebate and felt by far the better quality 

Mark


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## Trevanion (20 Sep 2019)

The Bear":3mjpadti said:


> I was amazed by how many were supposed to be premium products and were truly awful. One of the most common problems was being able to see the locks between the frame and casement. Some of the gaps were huge. Some hid the locks with a weather seal.



It's a real jungle out there, there's plenty of companies charging a fortune for their products with all the flash buzzwords and pamphlets to match but the construction is seriously questionable at best. In my opinion, you're best off avoiding most companies that would be in a show because their #1 aim is to make money, not a good product. Try hunting out the smaller joinery shops that the big companies often call "cowboys" you'll find some making extremely high-quality bespoke stuff for a fair price.

I worked for a local company for a short time, they advertised themselves as "_the premium_" joinery manufacturer. I saw more dodgy workmanship there in 3 months than I have seen anywhere before or since, somehow accidentally cutting off a tenon entirely when cutting haunches and sticking the door together regardless kind of dodgy workmanship. And some very questionable construction methods which relied too much on glue, modern glues are very good but I wouldn't trust them entirely to make up for shoddy quality joinery. Everything was rapidly produced, doors, for example, had a sloppy fit blind tenon which went about halfway into the stile, the door was glued and cramped in a hydraulic press, nails were fired through the face into the tenon, nail holes filled with car body filler and then the door was removed out of the press and set aside. They charged far more than any other joiner in the area and the business was built purely on salesman boll-ox really. They also treated staff terribly so there was a massive turn-over of staff which resulted in someone new there every few weeks and someone leaving every few weeks, you can't build a quality product if you've got no expertise built up within the company and you're relying on unskilled workers to get the work done. Fortunately, it seems they've actually drained the local employment catchment area and apparently they're really struggling for staff, serves them right.

The absolute best staircase work I ever saw done was by a guy who worked out of a humble workshop filled with very old gear, no advertising all through word of mouth, barely could call himself a company really, made the staircases in the workshop and went onto site with a plastic bucket filled with his tools and put them in with a helper. The most unassuming person in the world to talk to honestly :lol: , but his craftsmanship was really the utmost top-level, I couldn't hold a candle to it. Very complex curved string and balustrade work that I simply could not fathom trying to work out let alone actually build, and every single little detail is perfect and I've got a pretty keen eye for spotting a flaw. From what I understood he wasn't the cheapest but he also wasn't the most expensive, as I said, It was absolutely perfect which is worth paying the extra for so long as you're actually getting perfection and not a bunch of salesman malarkey.

Want a good job? Find the quiet unassuming guy making windows in a farm shed or something like that somewhere


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## Doug71 (21 Sep 2019)

Trevanion":1l09ohsx said:


> Want a good job? Find the quiet unassuming guy making windows in a farm shed or something like that somewhere



That's me


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## The Bear (21 Sep 2019)

I did avoid most companies that would be at a show. And am very happy with the one I didn’t avoid But it’s also great way of seeing 20 companies products in a morning. I have in fact chosen a one man band working out of his garage for my new staircase 

Mark


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## ColeyS1 (21 Sep 2019)

Hi Mark. Dont suppose you'd like to show us some photos of your chosen windows please ? Sounds like you've whittled it down to the best design already !

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## The Bear (21 Sep 2019)

Will do but not at home for a few days. 

Mark


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## ColeyS1 (22 Sep 2019)

The Bear":20b1853t said:


> Will do but not at home for a few days.
> 
> Mark


Thanks Mark. 

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## ColeyS1 (22 Sep 2019)

Just flicking through the coastal book he left and found this page which describes the system in more detail.











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## Jonathan S (22 Sep 2019)

If you are intrested in the eurogroove system try looking at Siegenia or Roto-frank.

From my experience if you buy from many of these hardware experts they are great at selling you fancy stuff but when you get a technical problem they are totally clueless and rely on the manufacturers technical department that know not much more.

If you want to be educated in the eurogroove hardware system call Paul Barthrop Technical Advisor for VBH http://www.vbhgb.com/ he is at there Kent branch.....or was last time I called....he is a eurogroove guru!..... he found me hardware solutions that all the other fancy hardware experts said where impossible!

Jonathan.

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