# New metal lathe cutting tools; solid or replaceable tips..?



## tangledfeet

I'm a technical teacher at a Scottish secondary school and I'll be teaching National 4/5 (Scottish equivalent of 'O' Grades) Practical Metalwork next school session, pretty much a new subject to the curriculum.

We have two new (well - new to us, anyway...) Warco GH1330 centre lathes but virtually no cutting tools so I need to get the requisitions in for new cutting tools. I did my time on the tools 20+yrs ago, and grinding/sharpening lathe tools was never a strength of mine!

Are the cutting tools with replaceable carbide tips pretty much the de facto standard these days, and are they robust enough for clumsy use by secondary school kids?

Many thanks for any guidance!


PS - Had a clear out today of the old kit for the old lathes and found a couple of Myford 3-jaw chucks; do they have any value or worth..?!


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Insert tip tools are pretty much industry standard these days. Indeed, you may be hard pressed to find brazed carbide-tipped tools. However, the insert tips do have their disadvantages; they're expensive, they tend to be brittle, and they really don't like slower cutting speeds. All of those weaknesses may be quite significant in a school workshop.

I hate to say this, but HSS may be the pragmatic option, especially for inexperienced operators. It's almost certainly the cheaper option, too.

Myford chucks (especially if they have both inside and outside jaw sets and the chuck key) have a definite value - check past Ebay prices!


----------



## tangledfeet

Cheshirechappie":156u6er4 said:


> Insert tip tools are pretty much industry standard these days. Indeed, you may be hard pressed to find brazed carbide-tipped tools. However, the insert tips do have their disadvantages; they're expensive, they tend to be brittle, and they really don't like slower cutting speeds. All of those weaknesses may be quite significant in a school workshop.
> 
> I hate to say this, but HSS may be the pragmatic option, especially for inexperienced operators. It's almost certainly the cheaper option, too.
> 
> Myford chucks (especially if they have both inside and outside jaw sets and the chuck key) have a definite value - check past Ebay prices!



Thanks!

I was thinking that HSS would be the pragmatic option as I did wonder just how brittle replaceable tips are.

I'll take some pics of the chucks tomorrow, perhaps even bring them home, and post up some photos in the appropriate forum.


----------



## woodpig

A mate works in the DT dept at a school and says they went over to insert tooling a few years back because the staff had difficulty sharpening HSS tools. Inserts can work out expensive but will give you repeatable results and save time over sharpening HSS. I use both insert and HSS tooling on my Lathe at home but do over 90% of my turning with a home made Tangential tool holder. One of these may be a viable option for you as they are very easy to sharpen with a suitable Jig. The commercial version is available here, there is a UK distributor: 

http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/ ... &Itemid=17

They call it a diamond tool holder due to the shape of the cutting edge. I don't know anyone who has bought (or made) one of these tools that has been dissapointed with it. You'll still need other tools like boring bars etc but it would make a good start.


----------



## chipmunk

Pre-formed HSS tooling is also worth considering for steel or Ali.
http://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Individual_HSS_Lathe_Turning_Tools.html

I use them all the time as it's much less time consuming than grinding from scratch, kinder on the grinder and only marginally expensive. They just need touching up every so often on the grinder or with a hone.

For brass and bronze the chip-breaker can be a bit aggressive.
HTH
Jon


----------



## woodpig

I forgot to say, if you decide on buying insert tooling be sure to get industrial inserts and holders made by someone like Sandvik. An industrial double sided triangular insert provides 6 cutting tips whilst a Rhomboid style insert aimed at hobbyists only has two but costs the same. My small Lathe doesn't have the power to use industrial inserts but your Warco Lathes should have no problem. A good supplier can advise you on suitable tooling. Buck & Hickman or Cromwell will be happy to help.


----------



## AES

Agree 100% with what "he" (Woodpig) says.

I've given up with industrial tipped tools (my mini lathe doesn't have the grunt to do much with anything except the "hobbyists" Rhomboid tools, and they're relatively expensive) whereas the Diamond Tool Holder (Eccentric Engineering, as he says) is, IMHO, the answer to the maiden's prayer. Not very cheap (but works out much cheaper than tipped tools), available in a range of sizes, includes a very, YES, very simple tool grinding jig (plus a length of HSS tool steel) and even more important from your viewpoint I guess, very easy to set up and produces excellent resultsin lesser-skilled hands (please DAMHIKT)!

Has a UK distributor too.

Thoroughly recommended - usual disclaimers

HTH
AES


----------



## woodpig

Also worth mentioning is that I sharpen nearly all my tools on a setup not too dissimilar from the Sorby Pro Edge that so many on here seem to like. Mine is a much modified Record BDS250 belt and disc sander but it works in the same way. This is my setup.







The silver one is my shop made jig and the black one comes with the tool from Eccentric Engineering. I prefer mine but both achieve the same result. Another handy thing to have for your Lathe is a height setting gauge. Here is mine in use setting my shop made Tangential tool.


----------



## AES

I do like your tool height and grinding jigs Woodpig, thanks for the pix.

Krgds
AES


----------



## Inspector

There is a US company, Arthur R Warner Co., that makes HSS insert tooling that could be a possibility for you. 

http://www.arwarnerco.com

I would have thought Sandvik would have tools and learning materials for schools because students that start with a brand like that tend to carry the brand preference to their jobs if they go into the trade. I know they support the trade schools here and possibly the high schools too. What few are left that have shop programs.

Pete


----------



## tangledfeet

Thanks all for your advice, comments and ongoing discussion!

I have a feeling that I may well find myself right at home on this forum... 8) 

I do think that HSS is probably going to be the way to go as, simply, decent carbide tip tooling will probably be financially beyond any justification I could make. That, and as a council school we can only buy from a limited range of suppliers but I will investigate the suggestions given.

Anyway, I took some photos of the old Burnerd chucks I found at school and I suspect that they may well be worth something - would eBay be the way to go or would anyone here be interested? Also found two sets of internal jaws that I would think are for the above; unused - realised that it was ancient packing grease I was cleaning off with WD40 when I got home this evening!


----------



## porker

+1 for the tangential tool holder. Made one myself last year before I moved house and only had a quick play and am yet to get my lathe recommissioned. Grinding is easy and it cuts great with a good finish. I do also use some insert tooling for my boring bar etc and for hard metal but HSS is a lot cheaper. You could also try HSS with a high cobalt content as its supposed to wear well. 
Chucks are a good make if not worn. I assume they have a backplate fitted for the Myford nose fitting? I already have two of these and a four jaw so not in the market for one but they fetch good money if clean at the usual well know auction site.


----------



## woodpig

Cromwell have a special offer on 8% Cobalt HSS tool blanks at the moment.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

woodpig":hvbl5ueu said:


> Cromwell have a special offer on 8% Cobalt HSS tool blanks at the moment.



That stuff is an absolute pig to grind. Mind you, once you do get it ground up, tool edges last a very long time. Just the job for machining stainless or high-tensile steels.

(I think 8% cobalt is M42 grade HSS)

If you search around a bit, HSS lathe tools can still be obtained already shaped up. You may have to tweek for adequate clearance angles and cutting rake for some materials, but the bulk of the work is done. I'm fairly sure the big suppliers like Cromwell carry them. I think they're usually in M2 grade HSS, which isn't quite as indestructable as M42, but is more than good enough for machining mild steel, brass and the like.

'Ere we go - https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/393602/butt-weld-tools


----------



## woodfarmer

I have just recently ordered some HSS 8% from Warco. easy to deal with. I like using HSS in holders. My Holbrook although big by hobby standards has a top speed of 400 rpm. so generally speaking heat is seldom a problem. Nor is rate of work, because It is used for "hobby" stuff. So replaceable carbide tips would probably be counter productive for me. A big plus for HSS is I can easily grind special shapes for different jobs/materials. It is also very easy to make your own tool bit holders.


----------



## woodpig

Grades of HSS here.

http://www.icscuttingtools.com/Tooldata.htm

Then there's Crobalt but it's not cheap!

http://www.crobaltusa.com


----------



## chipmunk

tangledfeet":2v0httvb said:


> Anyway, I took some photos of the old Burnerd chucks I found at school and I suspect that they may well be worth something - would eBay be the way to go or would anyone here be interested? Also found two sets of internal jaws that I would think are for the above; unused - realised that it was ancient packing grease I was cleaning off with WD40 when I got home this evening!



Well you could try them here...
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/for-sale-wanted.html
or probably better here...
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/classifieds/

...but you'd have to subscribe first.
HTH
Jon


----------



## chuckey

While the "Eccentric" tool has had many good reports, it is expensive and I feel that one should have at least two if not three sets of lathe tools, one for brass, one for mild steel and one for aluminimun , which would do for most plastics. The same comments go for replaceable tipped tools, Err, I think that's 10/10 for HSS.
Frank


----------



## woodpig

Tangential tools are easy to make if you have a mill. This one only cost me an hour or two on the mill and some steel from the scrap bin.


----------



## porker

And a blasted finish? That looks an amazing tool. Was this CNC or a manual machine?


----------



## woodpig

Hand milled as I went along with just an idea in my head. I'd made an earlier prototype which worked well enough but I wasn't happy with clearance for swarf etc. Yes, sand blasted finish.


----------



## Harbo

Nice looking tool - have you any links to drawings/dimensions of them please?

Rod


----------



## AES

Agreed, nice looking tool. I don't have a mill but an seriously thinking - slowly - about a milling attachment for my lathe. yet another item to add to the "roundtoit" list!

AES


----------



## porker

If I remember rightly the tool is milled with a compound angle of 12 degrees in two directions. I know when I made mine I made up the dimensions to fit my toolpost making sure I could get the tip on the centreline of the work. Tipping over to 12 degrees I did by making some hardwood wedges and clamping on mill in vice as I don't have anything that tilts in the right plane.
Will see if I can find a link tonight


----------



## woodpig

Quite right Porker, it's just 12° forward and 12° left as you look at the tool from the back.
I swung my main 4" vice to 12° on the table and then clamped a 2" machinists vice into it at a 12° angle.
This pic shows the sort of thing.







A very good idea I found out was that if you carefully machine the top of the holder so it's on centre with the Lathe you can simply set the cutter height by turning the holder upside down on a flat surface and then lowering the bit until it touches to set the height. :wink:


----------



## woodfarmer

woodpig":3cqsu5su said:


> Quite right Porker, it's just 12° forward and 12° left as you look at the tool from the back.
> I swung my main 4" vice to 12° on the table and then clamped a 2" machinists vice into it at a 12° angle.
> A very good idea I found out was that if you carefully machine the top of the holder so it's on centre with the Lathe you can simply set the cutter height by turning the holder upside down on a flat surface and then lowering the bit until it touches to set the height. :wink:




Now that is a really clever idea !


----------



## tangledfeet

Update:

On Thursday afternoon my Principal Teacher and I went to another school on the Authority that has been teaching Practical Metalwork to see how they've been delivering the course - the teacher was a time-served toolmaker and experienced machinist. We've been sold on the insert tip tooling for several reasons;
- Authority does not allow coolant to be used in school workshops so tool steel tooling doesn't stay sharp for long at all; I experienced this when I taught the old version of the subject several years ago
- We have no faculty technicians (school has a couple of technicians but they cover ALL faculties) to come along and sharpen within a practical timescale
- The grinder is old, knackered, unbalanced and wouldn't pass an H&S audit
- I'm rubbish at sharpening tools and don't have time to do so in any case
- Next session we're having to teach our subjects and get pupils their qualifications in five periods per week rather than the six stipulated by the exam board... :roll: 

Reminds me that I need to get round to putting the two chucks on eBay so we've got some cash to invest...

Since joining this forum and looking at various stuff online I've realised that one of the old lathes we had was a Myford ML7... it was Imperial and old but we had loads of bits and bobs for it - and it was on a steel Myford cabinet! May have been worth something but it was simply taken away by the company that sold us the two new(er) Warco lathes. The other lathe was Metric but so knackered that I had dispensation from the SQA (Scottish exam board) to use aluminium rather than steel as and where I could.

I'm also sold on having a go at making my own wood turning tools using ISO inserts... at least now I can make some turned and knurled aluminium handles at school! It was actually research on wood lathes that bought me to this forum in the first place and I've already found you all very friendly (hi chipmunk!) and helpful.


----------



## woodpig

As I said in my earlier post, this is the approach they used at another school so I'm not surprised you've taken the same route. You really do need a working grinder though so address this issue as soon as possible. At my suggestion the school bought first one, then an additional Sorby Pro Edge sharpening system together with all the accessories. This is far easier and I believe safer then a bench grinder. Insert tooling for metal working lathes aren't very sharp, certainly not enough to cut wood very well so you'll need to sharpen HSS eventually if you want to try wood turning.


----------



## tangledfeet

I'd never actually seen insert tooling before and it was more my Principal Teacher, he who holds the purse strings, that needed to see them in action and hear from someone far more knowledgeable than I that the benefits justify the considerable expenditure on the tools themselves - and also hopefully the self-centering tool posts we saw too.

I've pushed the grinder issue on safety grounds but as it gets so little use anyway I might suggest removing it and spending the money on the tooling; they'd make it pretty much redundant - the hut woodwork workshop has a working grinder. The idea of a Sorby Pro-Edge (something on my own domestic long-term shopping list...) at school would be, sadly, a pipe-dream. I don't think many appreciate how tight the finances are in Scottish Education!

Must admit I'd never considered the sharpness of insert tooling... was curious after seeing some turners using it on YouTube videos.

Cheers!


----------



## woodpig

My friend was one of two technicians that worked in the D & T department. Although most of the Lathes they had were equipped with suds pumps none of them were actually used with coolant, even when they were using HSS tooling exclusively. The only two machines that ran coolant were a small CNC mill and a bandsaw. Changes in staff prompted the switch to insert tooling as they didn't want to be reliant on one member of staff. They still use HSS for some jobs though and there's still only one guy there who can sharpen the tools effectively and he's already beyond retirement age ...


----------



## woodfarmer

Before you read this I am NOT getting at anyone in particular, regard this as a rant by me.

I find reading this thread to be intensely disheartening. I use HSS tools and no coolant, but run at slow speeds, sometimes stopping to allow things to cool. Not using coolant on H&S grounds seems sad. Perhaps the students should not have sharp tools around either in case they cut themselves. I did once when a turret lathes' chamfering tool hit my finger. Of course thay can't be allowed near dangerous machines with moving parts. Or in an environment where there might be sharp bits of swarf. Perhaps they should be taught to carve cheese using a spoon, but only if you are sure no one in the class is lactose intolerant.
Maybe stay at home in bed.

If it makes you feel better I singed a finger yesterday forging a bit of stainless steel.


----------



## AES

I do have to say I do agree with Woodfarmer. I did both metalwork and woodwork at school (one of the schools I went to had a big lathe, but unfortunately I left that school before I'd had the chance to have more than one quick go on it), and also at (another) school, all the woodworking tools were very sharp - AND we were told they were sharp and why, and how to handle them.

Just a month past 16 I started my RAF apprenticeship which included both welding and lathe work (both too short in time for what I try to do now unfortunately), but again all closely supervised by experienced instructors.

If someone is going to learn to use tools properly there are risks of course, but apart from the odd small, non-life-threatening accident, with proper training (which starts with being taught "respect and no larking about" from the moment one enters the shop door), I cannot see why any kid who wants to cannot get the basis of a lifetime of pleasure and reward out of learning to use tools properly and correctly from the word go.

I have no kids of my own but from what I've heard from others who do, what we called woodwork and metalwork is now very much watered down. This thread seems to prove that impression.

But we do have friends with kids and one young 6 year old in particular is getting on in my little shop just fine - every time he visits us he asks to go into the shop and of course I'm there with him like a shot - AND my tools are as sharp as I know how to get them (and we use coolant - brushed or squirted on - with HSS tools on the lathe)!

Yup, I agree with Woodfarmer. Maybe this is (just one) of the reasons why GB is loosing/has lost it's manufacturing heritage? As a Brit that makes me sad. We don't even make aeroplanes any more.

Krgds
AES


----------



## chipmunk

I agree it's depressing to hear how bad things are at the chalk-face but it's no good moaning and wringing hands guys. 

None of us is an innocent bystander in all this. We all bought and continue to buy cheap imports over more expensive locally made products (I'm guilty especially of buying foreign tools and workshop equipment) and we all take or took higher wages than are paid in other countries for the same jobs and welcomed the better safer working conditions that led to the low risk workplace that we have today. It's called progress.

The question is where do we go from here? One option is that we have lots of engineering societies and woodworking/turning clubs around the country. We could be supporting them and trying to persuade the next generations that there is fun to be had and money to be earned from taking up these practical skills and crafts IMHO. Keep what crafts and skills we have alive. Not a panacea but better than just moaning.

Jon


----------



## tangledfeet

> Before you read this I am NOT getting at anyone in particular, regard this as a rant by me...





> I have no kids of my own but from what I've heard from others who do, what we called woodwork and metalwork is now very much watered down. This thread seems to prove that impression.



Yes, sadly it does and I could easily rant with you woodfarmer..!

I think most teachers would concur that most if not all subject are watered down but, please, blame society and the curriculum we are obliged to teach - not the teachers themselves! I'm trying my best with what I have to hand...

A friend summed it up several years ago; the career 'path' is no longer and it is more 'crazy paving'...



> I cannot see why any kid who wants to cannot get the basis of a lifetime of pleasure and reward out of learning to use tools properly and correctly from the word go.



Absolutely. We now have a 3d printer and... it leaves me stone cold inside. :|


----------



## graduate_owner

As a retired school teacher (not craft based though) I would like to chip in my two pence worth here. People are certainly correct when they mention watering down. I well remember the metalwork and woodwork teachers complaining about the increased folder work and the corresponding decrease in acquired skills caused by the shift to CDT. Then CDT became Technology and the craft content dropped further. I'm not suggesting that children no longer produce quality work in schools, far from it. I am saying that they do so despite the decrease in practical teaching time, and all credit to those teachers who give up their lunch and after school time to make up for the decrease. The same goes for the other crafts such as cookery and needlework which are now under the technology umbrella as food and textiles Technology. I also well remember the cookery teacher saying she needed computers in her room far more than cookers now.

So, to read about a revival of craft based subjects in schools is encouraging to say the least. I just hope they will get a fair share of the limited funding and not become Cinderella subjects.

K


----------



## MusicMan

I recently sold a couple of Burnerd chucks on eBay for good prices, and you should get £50+ ish for unused ones. No need to state a reserve, they are popular enough to find their value. But won't you need chucks for your school?

If you do sell them, specify the back plate and thread, or sell them without backplate.

+1 for HSS. It's a better finish usually, for the sort of feed rates and cut depths that hobbyists/amateurs/kids use. I haven't used diamond tools but they look intriguing.


Keith


----------



## tangledfeet

MusicMan":3loofnni said:


> I recently sold a couple of Burnerd chucks on eBay for good prices, and you should get £50+ ish for unused ones. No need to state a reserve, they are popular enough to find their value. But won't you need chucks for your school?
> 
> If you do sell them, specify the back plate and thread, or sell them without backplate.
> 
> +1 for HSS. It's a better finish usually, for the sort of feed rates and cut depths that hobbyists/amateurs/kids use. I haven't used diamond tools but they look intriguing.
> 
> 
> Keith



I managed to raise around £280 by selling the old equipment (two old chucks and three old steadies) and most of it went toward auto-darkening welding equipment and the carbide tipped tooling. They steadies and chucks were sold as is and I was totally open about not being 100% positive as to what lathes they were for. The newer Warco lathes were supplied with both three and four-jaw chucks and are much bigger beasts.

I'm happy to report that the carbide tools have been a godsend..! They've proven so far to be more than robust enough and as we have no department technician nor the time to sharpen tools (I am no good at it myself anyway) they have made my job so much easier. HSS Might offer a better finish but, putting it bluntly, I am more interested in just getting the kids to turn within the respective tolerance at the level at which they are working! We are already having to teach our qualifications in five rather than six periods per week... and the class I have are generally, and to use the common expression, are not the sharpest tools in the box!


----------



## tangledfeet

graduate_owner":32rxshlh said:


> As a retired school teacher (not craft based though) I would like to chip in my two pence worth here. People are certainly correct when they mention watering down. I well remember the metalwork and woodwork teachers complaining about the increased folder work and the corresponding decrease in acquired skills caused by the shift to CDT. Then CDT became Technology and the craft content dropped further. I'm not suggesting that children no longer produce quality work in schools, far from it. I am saying that they do so despite the decrease in practical teaching time, and all credit to those teachers who give up their lunch and after school time to make up for the decrease. The same goes for the other crafts such as cookery and needlework which are now under the technology umbrella as food and textiles Technology. I also well remember the cookery teacher saying she needed computers in her room far more than cookers now.
> 
> So, to read about a revival of craft based subjects in schools is encouraging to say the least. I just hope they will get a fair share of the limited funding and not become Cinderella subjects.
> 
> K



It's a shame that we agree on the watering down, and it is not just my curricular area... pragmatically I see our job as more offering experiences that lead to qualifications rather than to teach skills to the high standards they once were.

Back a generation or two ago, in Scotland anyway, craftsmen and skilled tradesmen were able to enter teaching by doing a course over a few years at teacher training college and these are the teachers that I'm sure most of us here will fondly remember. The vast majority of these teachers are now retired, taking with them an immense wealth of experience and practical ability. Conversely, the vast majority of teachers entering the profession nowadays have never had a full-time job outside education having gone to school, then to university and then back to school to teach. That's just my tuppence and perspective!

Love the comment from the home economics teacher! :lol:


----------



## Wildman

If you are teaching metalwork than a good grounding in tool sharpening should be no1 priority HSS is very forgiving compared to insert tips.


----------



## Keith 66

Having worked as a technician in a college & school i can say that hss is definately the way to go, carbide tools will be rapidly wrecked by the kids, it doesnt take long to learn how to grind hss tools & they cut far better when sharp.


----------



## Jelly

Brilliant news that "proper" metalwork is coming back into schools, even if the budgets are a bit of a sticking point. I guess this is why we need more dedicated teachers who are passionate enough about their subject to dedicate brainpower and time well beyond their work time to make things happen. Hats off to you!

I recall my secondary school offering Btechs and NVQ's in "woodworking skills" and "performing engineering operations", because the head of tech (formerly head fitter at a cement plant) felt GCSE and A-level " resistant materials" taught an insufficient amount of everything, rather than giving us useful skills.

We were fortunate to have retained and maintained the facilities to make it possible, with the upper school workshop containing a big donkey saw, large turret lathes, milling machines (CNC and Manual), and a hot work area equipped for welding, forging and casting, though I don't recall ever hearing of anyone making a sand-cast part.

Alas, people who wanted to do a-levels were barred by a governor decision... (I wanted to do maths, physics, chemistry and Btech engineering but was forced into taking further mathematics instead).


----------

