# Well, Ebay has stolen a Norris 2 from me



## D_W (7 Sep 2017)

I bought a norris 2 from a seller on ebay a couple of weeks ago. They were shipping it only domestically and I convinced them to open the sale to the global shipping program on ebay. 

Yesterday, ebay refunded me my money without explanation other than that the shipping was restricted. 

This norris 2 was $280 or so (converted) which is unheard of over here. 

322646400394 (the old sale number on ebay). 

After three layers of emails with no explanation, they have told me that because it is a woodworking tool, it can't be shipped. However, they will not send it back to the seller, either. 

The only obscure reference that I can find is that the UK government is confiscating anything with rosewood in it, regardless of age. 

(CITES covers rosewood in the EU, but from what i can find, it is regarding commercial use and items before 1947 are exempt. This plane is before 1947). 

This is a theft.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2017)

Ebay's advice to me thus far is to not use their Global Shipping Program. 

That's really special.


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## AndyT (7 Sep 2017)

This is one of the downsides to eBay. When it all works, it's lovely - people who want obscure objects can be linked up to people who have them but don't want them. The reach is worldwide and instant.

But when something goes wrong, you're stuck, dealing with a faceless corporation whose staff and AI software cannot be questioned or externally overruled.


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## MikeK (7 Sep 2017)

At least you have your money back. The seller might be out the plane and the money. :-(


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## custard (7 Sep 2017)

_The only obscure reference that I can find is that the UK government is confiscating anything with rosewood in it, regardless of age._

Glad you got the refund, but in other ways this is a timely post.

A combination of Brexit, CITES, and a falling pound has triggered me to sell a substantial stock of Rosewoods, Ebonies, and Mahoganies to a German luthier supplier. I'm concerned that, lovely as these boards are, they're no longer fashionable furniture timbers and the demand just isn't there. If I hang on to them for much longer then I might not be able to sell them outside the UK or even sell them at all. They were collected last week, I've been buying boards like this for over thirty years and they're irreplaceable, I almost ran down the road after the courier yelling "stop, I've changed my mind"! 

I've kept enough for two or three substantial projects in case my kids ever want something extra special. But as far as I can see the future is renewable timbers such as Oak, Cherry, Walnut, Ash, or even Douglas Fir.


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## lurcher (7 Sep 2017)

hi david there are now restrictions as to which countries will allow wood into the country i sold a full set of record stay set planes and some infils to a guy in usa 
and youre country will not let in rosewood so the seller may be worth contacting i sell with ebay global shipping program and all tools stopped at the postal center are cheecked and repacked for on posting hope this is of some help to you . also did nigel send you pictures of the £2.00 arkansas stone


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## D_W (7 Sep 2017)

He did send me pictures of the stones. If they were 2 quid, that's quite a fine purchase. 

In terms of rosewood, the GSP literally shipped another rosewood plane after this one. It's not as nice - of course given the two, I'd rather have the norris but nothing ever seems to work out that way. 

(I got a slater with a rosewood infill two weeks ago, too, but that came via DHL). 

Ebay has turned up limp and refused to do anything further or provide contact, so I've opened an inquiry with UK customs. The seller is pineappled, also, because a plane that they have sold has instead been confiscated and will be resold by the party who did the confiscating to someone that the seller has no control over. 

In terms of money, they did provide me with a refund, and out of ebay assets and not the sellers', so I'm not technically out any money, but I am out of a plane that would cost three times what the purchase price was here in the US. 

The rosewood issue in the US is real, but it's on raw stock for commercial use (and I'm sure customs might seize that if it was private transfer because they have no way of confirming it's not commercial). The law in this case, though, says 1947 for paperwork for commercial lumber provided from a location in the EU or to the EU, and paperwork for all for *commercial use*. There are grandfathering dates of 1992 and April 2017 for dalbergia nigra (and not all dalbergia has been added to cites, so I would assume the price of all of those types will skyrocket here and over there), but they are for items made after those dates. Clearly, anyone with a brain could figure out that the Norris 2 predates that just by the fact that the company doesn't exist.


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## Rorschach (7 Sep 2017)

You don't matter in the grand scheme of things, your purchase is one of millions made everyday and it got caught. You are not out of pocket so I would just chalk it up to experience and try again.


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## JohnPW (7 Sep 2017)

Who confiscated the plane, is it UK Customs? If the seller hasn't got the plane, did they get the money?

AFAIK all Dalbergia species has been added to CITES Appendix 2, and needs a permit to cross borders. There isn't an exemption based on when the item is made. Although there's one exemption, you can travel freely with a Dalbergia item if it's under 10kg and it's not a sale, not sure if that including sending it though. Correct me if I'm wrong!


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## D_W (7 Sep 2017)

JohnPW":1313fhbv said:


> Who confiscated the plane, is it UK Customs? If the seller hasn't got the plane, did they get the money?
> 
> AFAIK all Dalbergia species has been added to CITES Appendix 2, and needs a permit to cross borders. There isn't an exemption based on when the item is made. Although there's one exemption, you can travel freely with a Dalbergia item if it's under 10kg and it's not a sale, not sure if that including sending it though. Correct me if I'm wrong!



Dalbergia Nigra isn't in appendix II, it's appendix I. 

D-Nigra was carved out of the dalbergia varieties added to II since it was already in I.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2017)

Here's the rule for pre-cites specimens. It doesn't require papers, the countries that follow cites can require papers, but they don't have to. The resolution only requires countries to do the following:

"CALLS on Parties to take any necessary measures in order to prevent excessive acquisition of specimens of a species between the date on which the Conference of the Parties approves the inclusion of that species in Appendix I and the date on which the inclusion takes effect; and

REPEALS Resolution Conf. 5.11 (Buenos Aires, 1985) – Definition of the term ‘pre-Convention specimen’."

Whether or not a country requires paperwork for pre-cites items is a matter of preference. It's recommended, not required. Where these groups have gone crazy is applying the standard of "preventing excessive acquisition" in cases where items have zero potential to do that. 


https://cites.org/eng/res/13/13-06R16.php

What's even more in poor taste is that no part of this requires the UK government or a shipping agent to confiscate something of this sort and not provide the original seller with the ability to get it back. In this case, even if they deem brazilian rosewood to be something that can't be transferred, it's not something to confiscate and then sell. That's theft. there is no reasonable expectation that the ebay selling price of something is the market price at the time of theft from the prior owner or the owner who has purchased said item.

My second plane purchased two days later is in the united states now on its way to me, and also does not threaten excessive acquisition of brazilian rosewood.


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## DennisCA (8 Sep 2017)

I've hated their global shipping program from day one.

A big reason really that I stopped using ebay for buying stuff from outside the EU.


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## RogerP (8 Sep 2017)

DennisCA":38c3rr9p said:


> I've hated their global shipping program from day one.
> 
> A big reason really that I stopped using ebay for buying stuff from outside the EU.


I agree but if it something I really want I ask the seller if they can just stick it in a box and send it "signed for" or whatever the equivalent is in their country - plus the custom's form of course. So far all have seemed only too happy to oblige.


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## D_W (8 Sep 2017)

There seem to be a lot of sellers in the UK who don't want to do international shipping. This one was one of them, but I did get them to agree to opening up to the global shipping program. 

Unfortunately, they stopped the package and confiscated it. I have written to the customs in both countries at this point, though I don't think the item ever got that far (i think it was removed from circulation by the business, not by anyone government related). 

My next step is to file a complaint with the West Midlands police where it was seized. 

Obviously won't be using the shipping program for this in the future. I used to hate DHL, because they have a habit of giving my packages a country-wide tour in the US before they get to my door, but I'm starting to view them quite favorably at this point just because the planes eventually get here at the end of that.


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## Eric The Viking (8 Sep 2017)

I've researched eBay's global shipping program (from the USA) recently. It's operated by a third party, IIRC from Minneapolis-St Paul, Minnesota, from a huge warehouse/clearing house on a big industrial estate close to the regional airport. It is not well regarded in the USA and has come in for sufficient criticism that at one point there were rumours that it would be dropped altogether.

Here's why I know this: I recently received a video camera originally sent from Vancouver, Canada, via there, _which I didn't order_. My wife's trainers (which I did order, as a surprise birthday present) from Atlanta ,GA, never turned up. 

The camera had the shoes' shipping #. There was precious little to go on, but by pretending to be part of NCIS, I tracked down the original shipper by a fragment of documentation and part of a sticky label left with the packaging. 

They confirmed they had sent it, and how much it was worth (a couple of hundred USD). Both they and I (and the seller of the trainers, who had zero information about his package), all contacted eBay. 

Ebay had no interest whatsoever in getting the right things to the right people. They refunded my money (presumably using the seller's funds -- they've done this to me in the past, without authority), but made it very clear that they wouldn't bear any responsibility nor cost for getting the camera either back to the shipper, nor to the purchaser. They wouldn't give out any helpful information either, for example the original camera purchaser, so that I could send it straight there (and enquire if they had a pair of shoes suddenly arrive). Given the nature of the camera I think the Vancouver firm was only using the international shipping program in order to send it across the border into the USA - it was a sophisticated but analogue device, valuable in context but pretty useless elsewhere.

So that was four people disadvantaged by the process, at least two of whom were substantially out of pocket (IIRC, eBay doesn't refund to sellers - their promises are asymmetric).

I've had fragile and big electronic equipment shipped from Alaska in the past (from an eBay auction, but the process was managed by the seller directly. Needless to say, I now regard the international shipping program as a warning sign on eBay listings. 

The whole system was much better when they stuck with _caveat emptor_ and just left people to get on with it, also when both buyer and seller could leave feedback about each other. You had to form your own view of the risk involved, and proceed or not on that basis. In those days I almost never had any problems. 

Nowadays instead of an honest(ish) broker, eBay is an irritating, interfering third party. You still have to form a view as to risk, anyway, but the system makes it far harder to do simple things. FWIW, I've been an eBay member since some time around 1998 (from before they had any connection to PayPal).

E.


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## RogerP (8 Sep 2017)

If the seller won't agree to sending the item directly to me by normal insured post I don't buy. Any mention of GSP and forget it!


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## D_W (8 Sep 2017)

Eric The Viking":2xhxwkgd said:


> Nowadays instead of an honest(ish) broker, eBay is an irritating, interfering third party. You still have to form a view as to risk, anyway, but the system makes it far harder to do simple things. FWIW, I've been an eBay member since some time around 1998 (from before they had any connection to PayPal).
> 
> E.



I've been a member probably since 1996 or so? When they were brand new, I was in college, and I ended up finding out about amazon and ebay trying to find cheaper text books (that never worked out). 

I remember my first order from ebay - a computer microphone for 99 cents with shipping. I couldn't believe it, but lost my ID and didn't make more orders until 1999. I still am using my 1999 login ID (which is uncommon for me, I lose everything). 

I don't remember when paypal came along or how I paid for the first order - must've been credit card. 

Your points about global shipping are correct, I used it only as a last resort, but this was definitely the last time. Especially since they suggested not using it as a solution. 

Their customer service is horrible, though. It used to be cable and cell phone companies here with customer service like that, but it was impossible to get to a real person without lying, and then once I did, they quickly showed they don't do customer service. The first person who wrote back to me told me that the plane was seized because "the shipping center couldn't confirm that it had been cleaned". It went downhill from there - I can only conclude it's rosewood and CITES because there are other community posts on ebay that started just about a week and a half ago. 

I just think it's not right for them to seize a package and pretend they have no authority over the shipper, the shipper is contracted by them. They don't intervene because they don't want to, they want the money side of the business without the service. I'd be willing to bet that they paid me back with their assets (ebay) and the shipper will give them the proceeds of the sale, so they probably will lose money because the dopey shipper service will probably sell the plane at a salvage auction. It's plain stupid and aside from being wrong, it's dumb.


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## lurcher (8 Sep 2017)

i want to no what happens to the planes and other items someone is getting some food items


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## D_W (11 Sep 2017)

They sell them at a liquidation sale that they won't disclose to me.


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## D_W (11 Sep 2017)

I got an email from the contractor that does the shipping for eBay. As of January 2, 2017, they will seize anything with anu rosewood no matter what. Anything.

Do not use eBay global shipping for tools.

Or anything that could possibly have any kind of rosewood in it, you can't get it back from them. Type of rosewood doesn't matter, type of sale, doesn't matter.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2017)

D_W":1ra2s4zn said:


> They sell them at a liquidation sale that they won't disclose to me.



Yeah =D> =D> That's OK then.


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## carpyone (11 Sep 2017)

Please don't waste our valuable UK police time on this !!!
No one is out of pocket , annoying yes just put it down as lesson learnt .


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## D_W (11 Sep 2017)

This isn't a "lesson learnt", that saying is for things like sticking your finger through a chain link fence and teasing a dog.


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## D_W (11 Sep 2017)

lurcher":20i7821u said:


> i want to no what happens to the planes and other items someone is getting some food items



In terms of the food items (liquor comes to mind, or really anything that they get), it's pitney bowes, a giant company of low-level rank and file employees. While I'm sure something gets lifted from time to time (we're all human), I'll bet they are just as bad to their employees as they are to their customers, and a 20-year employee who takes a little hooch is probably sent packing with little regard for any humanity.

Not because the company is a keeper of principles, but because they view people as little revenue units, and one who takes something is a revenue unit who might subject them to lawsuit.


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## MrTeroo (11 Sep 2017)

D_W":1iltt1v2 said:


> Eric The Viking":1iltt1v2 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't remember when paypal came along or how I paid for the first order - must've been credit card.
> ...



Cheque payments were used on eBay back then.
Item was posted aftr the cheque had been banked & cleared.

They were the days


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## iNewbie (11 Sep 2017)

You're probably too young to remember when it was Postal Orders on there, too. lol


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## D_W (11 Sep 2017)

I'd like to have the details of that first transaction. When it first started, there weren't many items on it, most were cheap and there was no "buy it now". Auctions with reserves was it (or no reserves). Pretty sure that what I got was a microphone for $1, though, and i expected it would never show up. but, it did, and it even worked when I got it.


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## MrTeroo (11 Sep 2017)

iNewbie":2t682yeu said:


> You're probably too young to remember when it was Postal Orders on there, too. lol



No I remember postal orders. I joined when it first launched in the UK in 1999. First thing I bought was an A4 scanner

Can you still buy postal orders?


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## D_W (11 Sep 2017)

You can do postal money orders in the states - they are probably the best way to pay and get paid (most secure, and cheap. About a dollar for up to $1000 of value - maybe 2 dollars). All of that stuff went away for small transactions on ebay (unless you went out of your way to do it) when they installed paypal as a means to collect additional revenue and have a digital paper trail of transactions to resolve disputes. 

Aside from market share (which means traffic), at this point, I can't really see what else makes ebay any good any longer. 

I sold three items in the last two weeks. First was a guitar pickguard. No big deal - $8. Some guy from china asked for a lower deal, I gave him his offer. He emailed me a dozen times after the auction asking questions, told me he thought the pickguard wasn't authentic (of course, it was, it was off of an american standard fender telecaster that I had and put a custom pickguard on, but I no longer have the guitar, and even if I did, it wouldn't be "proof"), and he said he changed his mind then after he bought it. I filed a non-paying bidder claim just so that I can relist it, and he hasn't responded. For a couple of weeks now, I'm waiting for them just to give me a credit and let me relist it. 

Second was a watch - that sold, no issues. 

Third was another watch - some guy got the winning bid, and a full day later informed me that he'd made a "mistake" bidding and wanted to cancel the transaction. I see now that ebay has a "cancel transaction" option whereas they used to only allow the buyer to be declared a non-paying bidder. I get to relist the item now. 

So in the last week, I've had two non-paying bidders, and a plane seized that never should've been subjected to any judgement in regard to CITES in the first place, because it's given an exemption from any requirements (and every other shipper sees it that way). 

I've contacted US customs (don't know if I said that already) to find out what their opinion is on these tools so that I can send it back to the people at Pitney Bowes.


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## iNewbie (11 Sep 2017)

MrTeroo":25cu4ntz said:


> iNewbie":25cu4ntz said:
> 
> 
> > You're probably too young to remember when it was Postal Orders on there, too. lol
> ...



http://www.postoffice.co.uk/postal-orders :wink:


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## MrTeroo (11 Sep 2017)

Cost to send £100 = £12.50

Makes PayPal seem like a community bank


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## D_W (12 Sep 2017)

I think your post office needs to talk to our post office here.


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## JohnPW (12 Sep 2017)

Terms and conditions for the seller:
https://pages.ebay.co.uk/shipping/globa ... ml#newUser



> Undeliverable Items.
> 
> eBay and Pitney Bowes shall have no liability and shall have, in their discretion and in any manner that they prefer, the right to dispose of or liquidate GSP (Global Shippng Programme) Items that eBay or Pitney Bowes conclude are undeliverable, for whatever reason.
> If eBay or Pitney Bowes concludes that a GSP Item is undeliverable and elects to dispose of it or sell it, title to the GSP Item shall transfer automatically from you (the seller) to a third party that eBay and Pitney Bowes may designate and you will keep your Buyer’s payment.
> ...



It seems at least the seller does not lose their money. And if the buyer gets their money back, then this situation is a bit unusual because if a seller sends something using Royal Mail or a courier, and Royal Mail or a courier decides the item is prohibited, they will surely just confiscate it without any compensation to the sender. The same must go for UK customs.

Recently I bought 4 18650 li-ion batteries from a Ebay seller in China, it never arrived. I got my money back, the seller refunded me, and lost out. I think Royal Mail seized the batteries, as I found out apparently they won't deliver 4 loose li-ion batteries. But one single 18650 li-ion battery is OK, which I have bought and did receive previously.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2017)

Yeah, this case is one where they compensate everyone so that they can make a "customs" decision without being a customs official. 

I'm pretty sure they won't tell me where the liquidated items are sold because if this thing goes up for a straight auction somewhere, it could bring more than the remuneration, and then there is a potential for accusation of gain. 

The whole situation is really idiotic, especially since it's a private company who is making this arbitrary decision, as they say, "to make sure they don't incur fines". 

Of course, as I am requesting information from them (which now Pitney Bowes seems to have stopped responding), I got a brazilian rosewood infilled plane from the UK yesterday. It was repacked after customs in Jamaica NY before it came to me. and *of course* they had no problem with a very old plane that has brazilian rosewood infills. I bought it through ebay, but the seller used a different combo shipper and not the GSP. I was a bit surprised to see that it was repacked in New York, but I don't know that I've ever paid attention before.


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## Corset (12 Sep 2017)

I sell the odd bit on ebay and inrecently had a beech handled no4 plane confiscated on the wsy to finland of all places. How can that make sense, the last three planes i shifted with rosewood handles sll disspeared when they went to the USA. I think its going to be good news for the dealers. I listed the plane as pre the cites cut off etc but to no avail
I suppose the only way around it is get the paperwork done. 
Owen


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## RogerP (12 Sep 2017)

With anything I think may be a problem I just sell within UK only. I've had a couple of enquirers from USA ask if I could send to them but explained the possible pitfalls and heard no more.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2017)

RogerP":1zwl3736 said:


> With anything I think may be a problem I just sell within UK only. I've had a couple of enquirers from USA ask if I could send to them but explained the possible pitfalls and heard no more.



I got a rosewood infill yesterday. Just not with global shipping. 

I'm not sure what the seller used in terms of services, but it wasn't GS. The reason I say i'm not sure is that it was repacked here in customs, but maybe that happens no matter what. 

Of course, customs didn't care about it - they let another one of mine through a couple of weeks ago (a slater with a rosewood infill). 

It's a moron at Pitney Bowes who issued a "legal opinion" that all planes with rosewood should be confiscated. They follow it internally. Maybe ebay doesn't like it, I don't know, since they told me not to use GS going forward to avoid the problem. They didn't say not to ship internationally, just not to use GS. 

In their correspondence, they also said that if an item is questionable (so any dark wood or stained beech might be stopped), they will confiscate and there is no review. It's time for ebay to use someone else. 

Of the three planes I've gotten in the last month, only the norris 2 was stopped (the others didn't go through GS). Of the three that I got, the norris 2 is the one that I really wanted and really got an excellent deal on price-wise. Pitney Bowes still hasn't responded to my follow-up question, but I'm going to keep emailing them until they block my email, and then I'm going to post a youtube video to cost them business.


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## Jake (12 Sep 2017)

Eric The Viking":cy7as9db said:


> I've researched eBay's global shipping program (from the USA) recently. [snip] Here's why I know this: I recently received a video camera originally sent from Vancouver, Canada, via there [snip] The camera had the shoes' shipping #. There was precious little to go on, but by pretending to be part of NCIS, I tracked down the original shipper by a fragment of documentation and part of a sticky label left with the packaging.



Good social engineering Eric especially as NCIS ceased to exist a decade ago or more. What were they thinking! Just as well though as pretending to be part of SOCA is probably criminal (probably because cba to check if it falls within the impersonation offence but would be surprising if it didn't). Impersonating a long dead policing force is a cunning stunt indeed!


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## Rorschach (13 Sep 2017)

A question I have to ask, when you guys are shipping things, are you truthful on the customs form?


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## RogerP (13 Sep 2017)

Rorschach":2godd782 said:


> A question I have to ask, when you guys are shipping things, are you truthful on the customs form?


Yes, many times I've been asked to show the value as lower but always refuse as it would invalidate the insurance.


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## D_W (13 Sep 2017)

Rorschach":2e40ip7n said:


> A question I have to ask, when you guys are shipping things, are you truthful on the customs form?



I have only fibbed on someone's behalf once, but never on a tool. To sound a bit unamerican, if you're in a country using the services, you have to pay the taxes that cover them (I believe that here in the states, though, despite the media loving to go back and forth and pretend that we don't have to have any fiscal responsibility). 

If someone doesn't want the me to fill out customs forms, I tell them to get a proxy shipper and I'll ship a box with no receipt in it. The proxy shipper will do what they do, and use a list to attach a value to the item being shipped, and the buyer may lose or win.


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## D_W (14 Sep 2017)

Well, I think I've gotten a final resolution from Ebay. I got one more email from the UK ebay today (instead of US) informing me that they "followed all of their procedures and the plane has already been liquidated". 

I doubt the latter, the former, sure - they're stupid procedures. Confiscate items that customs doesn't confiscate or fine. 

So In informed them that I would make a youtube video providing the contact information for all of the large tool sellers who also sell on ebay, boost it out to my subscribers (which will then get it into the youtube recommendation listings for other users when they view it), and describe how to contact the dealers and ask them to cancel a listing so that the item can be bought offline. 

It only seems fair. They have been absurd - I notified them of the issue the day they sent me notice of restriction, and requested that they hold an item. I'm not naive about how large groups like this work - you have to get through ten layers of the onion before you could possibly find someone who has the authority to do anything, but still, I made the request in writing immediately. 

I'll do what I can to cost them revenue.


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## G S Haydon (15 Sep 2017)

David, which department did you get help from? Just had a beech handled Record plane seized. Initial calls have failed, I fail to see why I can't have it back!


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## RogerP (15 Sep 2017)

G S Haydon":1wlq7s00 said:


> David, which department did you get help from? Just had a beech handled Record plane seized. Initial calls have failed, I fail to see why I can't have it back!


Was this using the Global Shipping Programme?


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## bugbear (15 Sep 2017)

D_W":3ouv14qn said:


> , and describe how to contact the dealers and ask them to cancel a listing so that the item can be bought offline.


I assume that would get a seller removed from eBay, it's gotta be outside their T&C's.

BugBear


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## RogerP (15 Sep 2017)

bugbear":cz1qledj said:


> D_W":cz1qledj said:
> 
> 
> > , and describe how to contact the dealers and ask them to cancel a listing so that the item can be bought offline.
> ...



Strictly speaking I'm sure it must be but short of stopping you canceling an auction what can they do? I've cancelled quite few auctions for various reasons over the years without problems. They even give you a check list of 4 reasons to tick.


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## D_W (15 Sep 2017)

They can't do anything. i just bought an infill from a seller today. No reason to mention who, but I got a better deal because it wasn't on ebay and the seller did just as well. 

And since they didn't sell it to me on ebay, they're not going to be sending it through the GSP. 

(I wasn't on looking for planes necessarily, but looking for sellers listing "rosewood" planes with GSP enabled and sending them messages warning them not to sell the planes overseas. In several cases, the sellers didn't know they had GSP enabled, but ebay automatically puts GSP on, and if a seller clicks a sale to auto-renew sale, sometimes it adds GSP later. Here are the facts now when they do that:
* ebay knows the GSP will seize any items with rosewood in them
* all of these planes had rosewood in the description or title
* all of them had GSP enabled, and several of the sellers didn't do it on purpose
* if the sale completed, these sellers would pack the planes and they would get seized by the GSP

When this started, I notified customer service that ebay needs to have software filtering that warns a shipping seller that an item with the word rosewood in the title or description will cause an item to get seized. they didn't say anything other than that they'd been following their policies. Now they have their system bouncing people into GSP, and their view is that as long as they give the money back to the buyer and don't charge the seller, nobody cares. 

So, from now on, if I see something in the UK that I want, I'll track down the seller off of ebay. Certainly, ebay can suspend accounts, but they only do it when a seller is corresponding with a buyer and they have a paper trail. I contacted the buyer outside of ebay as I'd bought from them in the past, it wasn't hard to track down my email history. Ebay knows its in their best interests to make empty threats but not really do much, because the sellers will just go offline. 

After my experience with them, I'm not about the patronize them at this point.


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## D_W (15 Sep 2017)

G S Haydon":dnv5quxs said:


> David, which department did you get help from? Just had a beech handled Record plane seized. Initial calls have failed, I fail to see why I can't have it back!



I'll tell you what they'll say, but the emails are below. they will say that the terms of their program allow them to seize something they suspect will be a problem, it doesn't have to be a problem, but you won't get it back - it's their discretion and "the seller agreed to it and should have read the terms". I sent both PB and Ebay emails notifying them that I was going to put up a video showing buyers how to get items without going through them, but so far they haven't suspended my account. Kind of curious if this is such a big deal (and their effective date that they communicate is "all purchases after 1/2/2017") why are we only seeing it recently?

I'm still boiling. They cost me a $300 (with shipping) Norris 2 with fine original wood. Something I can never seem to find.

I'm waiting for the USDA to get back to me in the US. I suspect they'll tell me that they expect everyone to fill out paperwork (what else are they going to put in writing), but in responses to my question so far, they have discussed "buying materials covered by cites". I don't think they have the flexibility to answer questions about items that aren't materials, but old finished products, so I'll get the safe answer from them. 

On the ground, though, I've never had any issues with customs, and I have another one coming my way via international courier to confirm that. Now I'm on the customs, fish and wildlife and USDA radar as someone who imports things with rosewood bits in them, too, so if they were ever going to start taking my stuff, now's the time. (of course, there's nothing that I buy that truly violates the intention of CITES, and I avoid stuff with animal parts or new wood like the plague). 

[email protected] (pitney bowes, the group that is actually doing the confiscating)
[email protected]
[email protected] (ebay UK customer service)
[email protected] (ebay general customer service)

I never could get to anyone useful. They're all idiots with no authority, and they start with pointless generic answers first and only give you better information after a lot of digging.


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## D_W (15 Sep 2017)

By the way, for everyone, don't ship anything through the GSP that has any wood on it. Their terms allow them to seize anything and you have right to get any of it back. If you shipped pine and the reviewer didn't know what it was, they can seize it by stating that they aren't sure and won't take the risk. There is no review process and you can't get the item back or get them to check. 

They will tell you that you should've read the program terms, even if they take something they shouldn't. Brown beech is definitely off limits, there's no reason to suspect they'll know that it's not rosewood.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2017)

Well, I did get the stock answer that "items can be seized at the port of entry in the US if they don't have paperwork". 

I guess I shouldn't have expected anything different - nobody in their right mind at the government would tell you "we look the other way when we know that it's something that predates cites and is little". 

Hopefully, my last plane here gets through and then I think I'm done bringing in wooden stuff from the UK. I guess it's only a matter of time until someone has a sharpening stone seized because it's in a box made of wood.


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## D_W (19 Sep 2017)

I should have been clearer-that stock answer came from the United States department of agriculture.


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## lurcher (20 Sep 2017)

its all a big con mate ive had a collection of record planes all with rosewood handles 7 , 6 5,1/2 5, 4.1/2 4, 3 all with stay set cap irons to well i got email to say the buyer was refunded and i could keep the money from the sale .
but what happens to all these tools i just had a stanley no 4 stopped no mention of rosewood in the discription maybe i should sell you 1 with plastic handles and see if you get it . yet we can only hope that who gets them nos how to use them.


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## D_W (20 Sep 2017)

If they're being honest and these things are just getting sold at "liquidation" sales, how long are they going to eat losses. If you sell planes quickly, you take less money usually. 

I don't for a second believe they could sell my norris 2 that quickly unless they have an outlet, like a dealer in the US who is buying the planes for less than market price.


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## marcros (21 Sep 2017)

perhaps I should sell you a beat up old stanley, described as a "found in granddads shed. might be norris but i know nothing about planes. handle looks like rosewood" for the bargain price of $500, shipped through GSP and see whether that gets through!


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## D_W (21 Sep 2017)

I have no idea about the legality of that, but I'd like to see someone stick it to ebay by doing that. 

I got a new user agreement notice from them. I guess they don't like sellers selling to people outside of ebay if they have something listed, so if they catch you arranging anything with someone outside of ebay, they are now claiming the right to charge you final value fees on an item even if you don't actually successfully arrange a sale. 

I no longer sell anything on ebay, and probably won't buy much of anything there given their attitude and how hard it was to get simple answers in this case. I wish I could do something to encourage tool sellers to set up a separate site. We don't need all of the features of ebay, we just need a way to connect with folks and have some buyer protection (which we can get just by using paypal).


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## G S Haydon (21 Sep 2017)

Just to add further to this one. Just had a further two planes held, I'm expecting a refund shortly. From a value point of view it is still worthwhile to sell via GSP on the basis you get refunded and so does the buyer. I'd of preferred to of sold the items here but that was not an option, case in point, #5 Stanley sold for £50.00 + post, would of let it go for £20.00. Record router plane with only one cutter sold for £52.00 + post, would of let it go for £15.00.

From a heritage point of view GSP is a bad thing! After my current stint I should be largely done with ebay for tools.


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## D_W (21 Sep 2017)

These tools are going somewhere. They mentioned liquidation, and it would be nice to know who was liquidating. 

I didn't get the sense that Ebay was happy with PB, but they also didn't break kayfabe and said they had to adhere to the policies of their contractor (which I reminded them that they can threaten to get a new contractor - you don't have to hide behind the "we have a contract with them and have to abide by it" when it's hurting your business, that's absurd. Contractors are generally receptive to mid-contract revisions if they think it will help them keep their contract). 

But that's what they chose to do. They suck. Now they're suddenly concerned that people are arranging too many deals outside of ebay, but their response is to threaten sellers (which just means people will arrange the deals off of ebay outside of their paper trails) rather than to realize that their business model is becoming undesirable due to the amount that they and paypal now take in combination ( 15% on foreign sales). 

As you say, Graham, if the difference is between 50 quid and 20, then you tolerate their games. In my case, they're no longer a good option, and I've told them to stuff it (via email back and forth). I'm not delusional enough to think that the rank and file CS people on email care if I tell them that. I figured I might get a time out when I said I was going to make public videos instructing people how to purchase items on ebay and contact sellers who are selling large volumes on ebay, and how to avoid the GS program, but they had no reaction at all. I have two non-paying bidders items to settle, and then I'm out. 

It would be useful to have an email list of the sellers who are on ebay selling tools for people to contact them without going through ebay. In the case of most of the people I deal with, I already have their direct contact information, and used to buy off of ebay, anyway, despite the fact that I could've stiffed ebay. I've gone the latter route now. Even if I didn't have the contact information, many of the sellers who have a business have their contact information right in the listings, anyway, as a business seller. What is ebay going to do, charge the final value fee at the outset to all sellers to make sure they can collect? They have created the problem. 

Still waiting for the spiers infill panel that I ordered, but it is one of the last that I don't have something of in terms of the major makers and not dealing through ebay saved me 15% on the price of it. If this blossoms into the customs on the US being tipped off and starting to seize these planes, which they *could* technically do, even though it's contrary to the actual directives of cites, that'll really suck. It just puts the ball in the court of the dealers to mark things up because they will be the only folks who have the time to do the paperwork for the planes as a group. If it gets there, I will contact my congressman and senator and request assistance. 

Now that the cites list includes just about every rosewood there is (regardless of age, at least in terms of need to do paperwork), it's getting out of control. WE have a bad player or five in malaysia or whatever shipping illegal logs, and we're left losing stuff that should never be on the radar to begin with.


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## D_W (21 Sep 2017)

I am going to contact the USDA and customs and find out if I can work with someone to help create a streamlined paperwork system for low value items. It's needed.


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## D_W (1 Oct 2017)

Well, the last plane that I ordered came through parcelforce to the US with no issue. A very nice original spiers panel plane that someone had listed on ebay. Except there was no reason for ebay to get a slice of it given their recent behavior, so they didn't. 

USDA comments about what they *could* technically do (seize the plane for no papers) aside, this one came through with no issue. 

I'm done buying planes for a long while, I'm out of space. I'll be interested in finding out if anyone else has trouble shipping *outside* of the ebay GSP. Would still like to find the pig who got my norris No 2, but that's far enough in the past. 

I did get an email from UK customs, too, but they said (which I know now but didn't at the time my plane was seized) that they're not involved in this process and can't help because of it. Of course, we know now that it happens before anything ever gets to customs in the first place.


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