# Scribing Gouges Right Sweep To Match Spindle Moulding Cutter



## pollys13 (25 Aug 2018)

Regards door making, some time ago I got a Whitehill multi block I think its called and a set of mould cutters to run the ovolo mould on interior and exterior house doors. I also bought a 3 set of Axminster scribing gouges, to scribe the rail tenons to mate with the moulding on the stiles.

I'm not that familiar with the joinery terminology; the mould cutter set I bought just give a plain quarter round ovolo, no fillets, nibs I think there called, these fillets, nibs I do actually like, how they look in the mould. Think the only way to get these are with a Multico.

Anyway I'm thinking that the sweep, ( curvature of edge ) might not match the sweep of the mould cutter. This I assume is really quite crucial? 

I see Ashley Isles do a range of sizes and sweeps in their in cannel scribing gouges.
I'll check in the morning if the sweep of the Axminster gouges I have will match the sweep of the moulding cutter I have. If they don't match up and still on the assumption, that they need too, very closely, if not precisely.

How do I make sure an Ashley Isles gouge will properly match a new moulding cutter set I might need to buy?


----------



## Jacob (25 Aug 2018)

pollys13":175satqd said:


> .....
> 
> How do I make sure an Ashley Isles gouge will properly match a new moulding cutter set I might need to buy?


Not crucial at all - you just need a gouge with a smaller radius than the profile you are trying to scribe, and 'nibble' at it to fit. Doesn't have to be 'in cannel' either - an ordinary gouge will do. Actually probably easier than if it was a perfect match - under cutting slightly can make for a tighter and neater joint when they are cramped up and squashed together. 
The axminster page shows some ordinary gouges converted - ground to 'in cannel' shape. This might not work as the old ones were often laminated and you'd end up with a soft edge


----------



## ColeyS1 (25 Aug 2018)

I posted you some didn't I ?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## Trevanion (25 Aug 2018)

If you've got the Whitehill Combi Rebate/Mould head, they sometimes have a hollow seat in the top of the head where the nut of the spindle moulder sits which gets the nut below the cutters allowing you to do scribing cuts exactly like a tenoner if you've got a sliding assembly / jig for the spindle moulder. All you'd have to buy would be the corresponding scribe cutters to match your moulding cutters.

If that's not the case, I have in the past just done part scribes, which means only about 1" of the rail is actually scribed to the moulding and the rest is left square and the rest of the moulding hacked off to match. I assume you're doing it that way because I don't think a sane person would do a full scribe by hand. At least they wouldn't be sane for very long.

I couldn't tell you anything about what the chisel sweeps actually mean, I don't think they refer to any real radii or measurement so it may be difficult to match one to your cutters without having a full set on hand to try against. I might be wrong though.

If your spindle moulder is macho enough and has some form of sliding assembly I would suggest going down the route of having a 225/250mm tenon disk from whitehill equipped with the correct cutters, as it would save time over hand chiselling every scribe. That way you can buy whatever cutters you wish for either doors or windows and be able to tenon with straight cutters and scribe with cutters to match the moulding. But if you're just planning on making a single door it may not be worth the investment.


----------



## Ttrees (25 Aug 2018)

I thought the sweep meant the curvature of the shaft, nothing to do with the shape of the gouge.
Tom


----------



## Mike Jordan (25 Aug 2018)

Just on the off chance that you are not aware, it's normal when using a short hand scribe, to mitre the inside corner of the shoulder of the tenon rail using a mitre guide block and use the shape given to cut the scribe. It's only necessary to cut the depth of the mould plus a few mm. As Jacob has pointed out its easy to use a gouge of a smaller size if you don't have one that's spot on. I find an incannelgouge to be best by far.


----------



## Ttrees (26 Aug 2018)

That's not what I've heard, as some of the best carvers would prefer a larger gouge 
for a given profile, and only use part of it for the job.
Here is where I got the impression that the sweep refers to the shaft ....
http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-serv ... rving-heel 

Tom


----------



## johnnyb (26 Aug 2018)

A larger gouge? You wouldn't cut the middle of the profile( your cutting a negative). Sweep is the profile left if you hammer a gouge into a piece of wood. It's not really standardised beyond 3 is the shallowest etc. The shape of the shaft is something else. Ie spoon bent. 
I guess a normal gouge would work if it's sharp. I hope so cos I'm not buying another gouge and I've got a bit of scribing to do!


----------



## Ttrees (26 Aug 2018)

Had to dig out "ye old Axminster catalogue " it states what you say, so I'm obviously wrong on that.
I thought the profile shapes was referred to as radii/radius, or numbered.
I'm not a carver so I don't study this.

The larger shape than the profile comment was related to hollow profiles/incannel rather than the out cannel shape.
Is it not the normal practice to make a custom scraper for this, or is it used after the roughing work is done with gouges?

Thanks
Tom


----------



## johnnyb (26 Aug 2018)

Scribing in this case refers to a specific operation. A good example is fitting skirting on an inside corner. One section is run right into the corner. The negative of the skirting profile is cut on it's mating piece. To visualise the profile shape needed it's normal to cut a 45degree mitre. This will help to achieve the right negative shape. Usually the shape is undercut eg not sawn at 90 but slightly more so that presents a thin edge that can mores easily be fitted . What a lot of words. I could saw one quicker!


----------



## johnnyb (26 Aug 2018)

Imagine the small moulding that appears on the inside of wooden doors or windows. Usually an ogee or a quarter round. This is the same joint as on the skirting. It can be joined( just like the skirting can with 2 45 degree mitres )but this is considered inferior as a gap may open as the wood dries. So a 45degree is cut on one part and a scribing gouge is used to follow this negative as sawing would be tricky.


----------



## merlin (26 Aug 2018)

Sounds like a good reason to buy a pair of Multico scribing blocks for your TM to me with the matching cutters.

The "nibs" are just a matter of setting the cutters up correctly on the spindle and matching the scribing cutters on the TM.

Merlin


----------



## pollys13 (27 Aug 2018)

" If you've got the Whitehill Combi Rebate/Mould head, " No I have a Whitehill 96 x 55 x 30 limiter head and a set of Whitehill wst 1203 moulding cutters and a set of Axminster scribing gouges, 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4. 

" I have in the past just done part scribes, which means only about 1" of the rail is actually scribed to the moulding and the rest is left square and the rest of the moulding hacked off to match. I assume you're doing it that way " Yes that method more or less. At this point in time I think I'll plod on and see how I get on hand scribing the moulds.

That said, my spindle moulder spec here, https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-t ... der-501209

I don't know if the Whitehill Combi Rebate/Mould head would let me scribe, make door tenons, requiring repeated cuts to get a width of say 5"+ width tenon, would the size of the spindle shroud have a bearing on things? Same with a tenon disk, and size of tenon would be dictated by cutter to spindle distance and shroud? 
I'm intending to cut tenons on bandsaw.
Thanks everyone else for input


----------



## Jacob (27 Aug 2018)

Trevanion":eoz1cpp1 said:


> ..... I have in the past just done part scribes, which means only about 1" of the rail is actually scribed to the moulding and the rest is left square and the rest of the moulding hacked off to match. I assume you're doing it that way because I don't think a sane person would do a full scribe by hand. At least they wouldn't be sane for very long.......



This isn't scribing as I understand it. In fact I've no idea what you are talking about. 
What is "a full scribe"?

PS I think I get it - "a full scribe" is what you get with matching spindle cutters, moulding and matching scribe. 
Yes without these all is left square except the moulding, which is mitred, or scribed, or a bit of both, by hand .


----------



## pollys13 (27 Aug 2018)

I read ( on this forum I think ) the the scribe is best and will stay put but the mitre can move then let in water, the scribe should always stay nice and tight.


----------



## Mike Jordan (27 Aug 2018)

You are right in that any shrinkage will not be so obvious in a short scribed joint , this method is more popular with tradesmen when hand worked corner joints are needed, although the amount of work involved in both methods is about the same.


----------

