# What is going on with wood prices right now



## shed9 (24 Mar 2021)

What just happened?

Wood prices have shot up literally within the last few days, CLS has pretty much doubled and I'm seeing other construction lumber having similar increases. What did I miss?


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## NickDReed (24 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> What did I miss?


The last 12 months?


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## shed9 (24 Mar 2021)

NickDReed said:


> The last 12 months?


Yeah but CLS has been fairly stable up until recently, in fact I've gotten some of the best prices I've had for the last few years in the last year alone.


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## DBT85 (24 Mar 2021)

All connected to what's occuring I imagine. Or your supplier is short on stock and wants to make a decent wedge on whats left, or yor supplier knows they are the only place for miles with any stock and wants to make a decent wedge.


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## NickDReed (24 Mar 2021)

shed9 said:


> Yeah but CLS has been fairly stable up until recently, in fact I've gotten some of the best prices I've had for the last few years in the last year alone.



My brother in law runs a jacksons depot. Says there is a general shortage of materials and a very high demand. So capitalism dictates low supply, high demand, make hay while the sun is shining etc. If the question is why is the supply low I think we can pick our poison, covid, brexit, none inclusive Royal family, could be any of them!!

I had noticed cls price a week or so back as I was considering building a new workbench for the garage. Put the idea on hold when I saw the increase in price.


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## Doug B (24 Mar 2021)

I was notified Oak was going up 15% last week.
I know there’s been a shortage of construction grade timber for a little while,my supplier has only been selling this type of timber to regular customers & account holders for a while now


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## shed9 (24 Mar 2021)

NickDReed said:


> I had noticed cls price a week or so back as I was considering building a new workbench for the garage. Put the idea on hold when I saw the increase in price.


Same here, went to order some for a small outdoor project and thought better of it.


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## MARK.B. (25 Mar 2021)

Agree prices have gone up but to all those putting off jobs because of the price increase, how long do you wait before buying your wood. Once prices go up they take ages to stabilise or if lucky go down to previous levels. There is more chance of the price going higher rather than lower . Buying now at today's prices may be better than waiting for a price drop .


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## Sachakins (25 Mar 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> Agree prices have gone up but to all those putting off jobs because of the price increase, how long do you wait before buying your wood. Once prices go up they take ages to stabilise or if lucky go down to previous levels. There is more chance of the price going higher rather than lower . Buying now at today's prices may be better than waiting for a price drop .


True, but the new prices cannot be sustainable for too long, as many delaying builds, will cause over stocks, so a surplus of dead stock sitting around getting warped, damp and deteriorating, which no one wants. As was said by other reply, its capitalism in reverse! Saturated market need to clear overstocks, price forced down, purchasing begins again.


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## topchippyles (25 Mar 2021)

Never have this problem as mill all my own stuff


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## LeeAkeroyd (25 Mar 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> Agree prices have gone up but to all those putting off jobs because of the price increase, how long do you wait before buying your wood. Once prices go up they take ages to stabilise or if lucky go down to previous levels. There is more chance of the price going higher rather than lower . Buying now at today's prices may be better than waiting for a price drop .



Smart money is on Q4 this year or early next year before prices stabilise or start to ease off but this remains to be seen.


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## James555 (25 Mar 2021)

I went to my local fencing company earlier today. They've had a big issues with concrete products for six months or so, but he said they will run out of timber products soon as well. He seemed a bit gloomy, as you would.


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## topchippyles (25 Mar 2021)

LeeAkeroyd said:


> Smart money is on Q4 this year or early next year before prices stabilise or start to ease off but this remains to be seen.


Very unlikely to happen as prices only go up in 90% of cases


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## LeeAkeroyd (25 Mar 2021)

topchippyles said:


> Very unlikely to happen as prices only go up in 90% of cases



Not exactly sure what you mean?


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## topchippyles (25 Mar 2021)

LeeAkeroyd said:


> Not exactly sure what you mean?


Guys mentioning waiting for timber prices to drop in price but 90% of the time they never do.


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## Jos7000 (26 Mar 2021)

I have friends in Australia and they've told me timber prices have got crazy there in the last few months. So you can probably rule out brexit as the cause.


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## HamsterJam (26 Mar 2021)

Just been forced to order a load of posts and panels by SWMBO who is fed up of looking at our collapsing fence. 9 bays is costing me almost as much as I paid for 17 bays 2years ago and that’s with 3 posts over ordered last time making up the number this time


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## gandalf12 (26 Mar 2021)

I was informed by my local timber merchant at the back end of last year that timber prices would increase in the Spring due to the Chinese buying up all available stocks in the futures market.
They apparently have a huge shortfall in home grown timber compared to demand, so they are buying it up from everywhere and companies are inflating the price to capitalise on the demand.


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## silentsam (26 Mar 2021)

Sachakins said:


> True, but the new prices cannot be sustainable for too long, as many delaying builds, will cause over stocks, so a surplus of dead stock sitting around getting warped, damp and deteriorating, which no one wants. As was said by other reply, its capitalism in reverse! Saturated market need to clear overstocks, price forced down, purchasing begins again.


I don't see that happening any time soon. It'll probably take most places 6 months after lockdown ends to fill orders and fully restock... and eventually people who are waiting for prices to come down are going to have to buy so there will be that additional pent up demand as soon as prices fall even a little.


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## baldkev (26 Mar 2021)

Jewsons increased prices in january, i just had an email saying its going up again, around 10%..... and then theres the ship in the suez.... global shipping is slowing right now and it could be a couple of weeks before the ship is free, then all the backed up supplies will have to filter through. Could get worse......

The initial increases are likely due to the pandemic and increased demand from the u.s plus fuel going up to nakd back their losses?


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## Jorny (26 Mar 2021)

The demand for sawn timber has increased dramatically in Sweden during the pandemic. A lot being bought by diy:ers remodeling and building (In my opinion) rather uneccessary decks in impregnated pine. There has been talk of a shortage of certain dimensions and qualities. That might affect the prices in the UK together with the pandemic and brexit complicating things.


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## Dave Moore (27 Mar 2021)

Jos7000 said:


> I have friends in Australia and they've told me timber prices have got crazy there in the last few months. So you can probably rule out brexit as the cause.


Covid has made everything crazy. At the moment there is a shortage of transport on the seas. Still prices are crazy. Quotes our company is getting are only good for two days.


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## lexi (27 Mar 2021)

Geting 2 sticks delivered. Both 3m long and 38mm thick. one is 300mm wide and other I50mm wide. Kiln dried Iroko rough sawn. £140 Not cheap as last price was £1700 per cube M. How is that price near you?


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## gog64 (27 Mar 2021)

topchippyles said:


> Never have this problem as mill all my own stuff



lucky man, I’d love to have a go at that! Chainsaw mill or a bandsaw?


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## topchippyles (28 Mar 2021)

gog64 said:


> lucky man, I’d love to have a go at that! Chainsaw mill or a bandsaw?


Both gog and not a million miles from you.About 15 minutes from abergavenny


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## sometimewoodworker (28 Mar 2021)

Dave Moore said:


> Covid has made everything crazy. At the moment there is a shortage of transport on the seas. Still prices are crazy. Quotes our company is getting are only good for two days.


The material is sitting in the originating counties for months longer than usual and can’t get shipped as the containers can’t get moved from the port areas once they get in county. So quotes are getting shorter and shorter. Demand is going up as construction and woodworking were not reduced much by restrictions and those who had a £150 a week coffee/drink budget have free money to spend on making the home look better.

Will prices come down? Yes they certainly will. By how much and when is another matter. Many saw mills and suppliers are going out of business or have already gone. I am lucky that Thailand has a native timber industry and (by U.K. standards) is virtually unaffected by Covid19 domestically (16 months Thailand = 5 days U.K. currently for cases and total deaths, 92, are less that 2 days for the U.K.)


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## Jos7000 (28 Mar 2021)

Of all the wood products OSB should be least affected.


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## MarkDennehy (28 Mar 2021)

Well, according to the american podcasters (okay, granted, Shannon Rogers _does_ work for the largest hardwood timber yard in the US), covid and DIY came together in an unexpected way and spiked prices, but before covid you had the US-Canada trade war going on (so there's your CLS and OSB spike), and you were starting to see the beginnings of a US-EU war, and from my personal viewpoint in Ireland, Brexit has well and truly screwed us over for timber because all the Irish timber yards now can't use the land bridge or buy from larger British timber yards so they're having to go through new logistics setups. Prices here are now silly. Also, buying in bowl blanks from the UK has gotten pricier  
Ican't see how Brexit won't also have an impact on timber prices in the UK on top of everything else as well since the UK hasn't been self-sufficient in timber since the 12th century. But at least timber isn't food - it can sit in a truck for ages without rotting away to nothing.


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## Jos7000 (28 Mar 2021)

I agree, Westminster has screwed everyone in recent years, unless you count the handful of people they've handed millions to for no good reason.

But OSB content wood is usually sourced locally from small woody offcuts. The idea behind it is that it's a waste free product, as such cheaper than typical wood products.


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## SpursDave (5 Jun 2021)

shed9 said:


> What just happened?
> 
> Wood prices have shot up literally within the last few days, CLS has pretty much doubled and I'm seeing other construction lumber having similar increases. What did I miss?


I sell recycled wood and I cannot keep up with demand


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## Limburger (5 Jun 2021)

I heard someone say, the prices went up because USA normally buys alot of wood from Canada, but that went haywire or some in that direction and so they buy alot from EU and Skandinavic countries. But I cant verify that


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## Fidget (7 Jun 2021)

I just went to my local yard (Chilworth Timber) to pick up a small order, and I was eyeing up some 6x2 lengths of Cedar which was laid out for an order. My contact me told me it was the last cedar they had and it was being sold at £14/metre. He said that there wasn't any coming into the country anytime soon. Their sheds were half empty

Edit: that should be 6x1, not 6x2


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## LeeAkeroyd (7 Jun 2021)

Fidget said:


> I just went to my local yard (Chilworth Timber) to pick up a small order, and I was eyeing up some 6x2 lengths of Cedar which was laid out for an order. My contact me told me it was the last cedar they had and it was being sold at £14/metre. He said that there wasn't any coming into the country anytime soon. Their sheds were half empty


Believe me that is cheap given what the replacement cost is.


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## Fidget (7 Jun 2021)

LeeAkeroyd said:


> Believe me that is cheap given what the replacement cost is.



Last year I bought cedar for about a third of that from the same supplier


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## LeeAkeroyd (7 Jun 2021)

Fidget said:


> Last year I bought cedar for about a third of that from the same supplier


Not surprised to be honest, timber prices have leapt up massively fr this time last year.


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## Rallymantony (8 Jun 2021)

I had a call from my regular timber supplier back in August last year telling me that timber prices were going to increase dramatically for a number of reasons: fires in Australia, fires in America (being the main issue), US - Canada having a tiff and Covid (of course)... He was telling me that they have had to find and import from new mills all around the world just to keep up with basic levels of supply which was failing fast.. It does make you wonder if we will see prices fall any time soon


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## Doug B (14 Jun 2021)

Well I’ve had a conversation today & I still can’t believe it.
In front of me at the timber merchants was a guy who was paying for over £1500 of sheet materials, he then placed an order for more sheet material that was a bigger amount £££ 
I joked about him being busy he replied there was going to be a 60% price hike, I looked at the sales guy who said it was a distinct possibility as he’d heard the industry were trying to kill demand as they can’t satisfy supply, & if it did go ahead it would mean we’ve had a 120% increase in 18months
As I say I don’t know whether to believe it or not & wondered if anyone else had heard about this, the customer said he’d heard it from Travis Perkins.


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## LeeAkeroyd (14 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> Well I’ve had a conversation today & I still can’t believe it.
> In front of me at the timber merchants was a guy who was paying for over £1500 of sheet materials, he then placed an order for more sheet material that was a bigger amount £££
> I joked about him being busy he replied there was going to be a 60% price hike, I looked at the sales guy who said it was a distinct possibility as he’d heard the industry were trying to kill demand as they can’t satisfy supply, & if it did go ahead it would mean we’ve had a 120% increase in 18months
> As I say I don’t know whether to believe it or not & wondered if anyone else had heard about this, the customer said he’d heard it from Travis Perkins.



I work in the timber industry and to give you some ideas the price of CLS has risen over 170% in two years, joinery Redwood you're looking at an increase of approximately 
£140m3 for the third quarter (July to September) with further increases likely in the fourth quarter of this year.


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## topchippyles (14 Jun 2021)

LeeAkeroyd said:


> I work in the timber industry and to give you some ideas the price of CLS has risen over 170% in two years, joinery Redwood you're looking at an increase of approximately
> £140m3 for the third quarter (July to September) with further increases likely in the fourth quarter of this year.


You are correct sir and only glad i have access to a local woods and self mill


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## thetyreman (14 Jun 2021)

I'm tempted to buy loads of redwood pine now as an investment and then sell it on at the end of this year.


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## sometimewoodworker (15 Jun 2021)

thetyreman said:


> I'm tempted to buy loads of redwood pine now as an investment and then sell it on at the end of this year.


You need :
Transport to storage (cheap?)
Storage space (cheap?)
Transport from storage (cheap?)
Guaranteed customers
Loads of cash
Clairvoyance that the price increases will be greater than 1+2+3 and that 4 will pay that much

If you’ve got all of that then it’s a good idea


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## Jameshow (15 Jun 2021)

My clairvoyant has just phoned to let me know she's not working today due to unforseen circumstances.... 

Cheers James


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## danst96 (15 Jun 2021)

Its not an issue limited to UK and its not a straight forward issue of supply issues or just demand. Its incredibly high demand paired with severe supply issues which massively amplifies the problem. I was talking to a builder in Canada and he said last year they had 20 new builds for the entire year. They had had 80 orders for new homes in March alone apparently. That mixed with the cost of OSB increasing from $20 a sheet last year to $80. I had planned on building a new home there, guess i am screwed then.

Do you think prices will come down at all? If suppliers are trying to slow down demand by massively inflating their prices, surely that can only be sustained for so long before it causes issues?

I think governments also need to put the interests of their population ahead of the interests of the profits of some companies as a lot of issues stems from companies sending wood to the highest bidder, often China. 2020 has really made me dislike China a lot.


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## sometimewoodworker (15 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Do you think prices will come down at all?


Of course they will. But when is a much more difficult question. 
There has been some downward movement on some species in the USA recently. 


danst96 said:


> If suppliers are trying to slow down demand by massively inflating their prices


They are not. It is called capitalism!
Prices go up when demand is high and supply is low, as it is now.

Prices adjust to the point where demand matches supply.

If you artificially lower prices then the supply will completely disappear as stock will be exhausted at the prices you set.


danst96 said:


> I think governments also need to put the interests of their population ahead of the interests of the profits of some companies


It is not the government who produces the material, which is limited at the moment.


danst96 said:


> a lot of issues stems from companies sending wood to the highest bidder,


Why should companies not make as much money as they can?

Do you want to live in a communist society now!


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## danst96 (15 Jun 2021)

Im not saying that prices should be artificially lowered. Of course price goes up with increased demand and limited supply, this is simple economics. What i mean is in some wood producing countries (including UK to some extent) their own supply of wood is being prioritized to foreign buyers. This is nothing to do with government, as you say, in a capitalist system it is entirely up to anyone to do this however it is resulting in the domestic market being stretched to breaking point and what I am trying to say is it may be in the governments interests to "encourage" suppliers to focus on the domestic market during this crazy period. Not only would it be supporting its own citizens but it would also keep more money in the country. Then again this could be a flawed argument especially from a Brit as we import most of our timber.


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## sometimewoodworker (15 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> what I am trying to say is it may be in the governments interests to "encourage" suppliers to focus on the domestic market during this crazy period. Not only would it be supporting its own citizens but it would also keep more money in the country.


The way that governments do that is by tariffs or export duties/restrictions. They often take a considerable time to bring in and then as often as not backfire as the Americans found with the duty on Canadian timber, yes it’s the reverse of what you want, but it shows just how difficult things like that can be.


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## peter-harrison (15 Jun 2021)

I have just got a pile of melamine faced MDF, standard MDF and birch ply. The supplier (Timbmet) said price rises are driven by Brexit, Covid and the US market. Apparently, the Americans are buying more melamine faced MDF these days, which has led to factories being switched from producing standard to melamine, which has led to melamine now being cheaper than standard! Crazy, huh?


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## Jake (15 Jun 2021)

US 'Lumber' futures now 42% from May's peak, lots of the speculative buying being sold down to cut losses.






LBS


Get the latest Lumber price (LBS) as well as the latest futures prices and other commodity market news at Nasdaq.




www.nasdaq.com


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## clive griffiths (15 Jun 2021)

I was in selcos today, told me their timber is going up 40 % from July.


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## Sandyn (15 Jun 2021)

It's not only wood. I just got a quote for my annual restock of metal. Wow! was that a surprise. Average of 30% increase, but steel prices tend to be volatile.


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## topchippyles (16 Jun 2021)

clive griffiths said:


> I was in selcos today, told me their timber is going up 40 % from July.


Glad i mill my own clive and a 40% rise is crazy


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## dannyr (16 Jun 2021)

Read the same news (different source) as Jake, above --- mills have caught up with demand in US and prices of construction grade now going down fast -- many hoping to profit by stocking have got their fingers burnt.

That's US not UK/Europe, but have a deep pocket if trying to beat the market.


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## CaptainBudget (16 Jun 2021)

Sandyn said:


> It's not only wood. I just got a quote for my annual restock of metal. Wow! was that a surprise. Average of 30% increase, but steel prices tend to be volatile.



I work for a steel fabricators, cost price of structural mild steel has nearly doubled in the last 12 months and some common section sizes have become like hen's teeth.

Mills shut down worldwide due to pandemic, and were slow to start back up. Demand has spiked massively in the last 3 months leading to a perfect storm of high demand and low availability. Many plate Decoilers have sold incoming stock as far ahead as October/November which is crazy...


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## matkinitice (16 Jun 2021)

Interesting read here, just download the pdf.

TTF Market Statement May 2021 - Timber Trade Federation 

Timber Trade Fedaration


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## Nick Laguna UK (16 Jun 2021)

mAtKINItice said:


> Interesting read here, just download the pdf.



Interesting thanks for the link, and the comment below from that report applies to many other products / retailers now I'm sure.

"• Those less able to hold stocks or less willing to plan their needs in advance were unable to spot-purchase quantities: this was a particular problem for builders’ merchants, whose purchasing strategies and stock-holding patterns have only now begun to adapt to the new reality."

Regarding machinery, one of my customers said to me the other day "If you have it, you can sell it". They were sharp and forwarded ordered quantities with storage facilities where as others are now facing delays of 6 months for certain machines as they are all pre-sold until then.


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## Sandyn (20 Jun 2021)

The price for my steel restock made me have a look on the internet for a cheaper source than my usual supplier. I made up my list on Friday, but had to check some sizes for a gate I'm making. I took a snapshot of the order, because the site wouldn't save my basket. Went to place the order today and the cost has gone up since Friday!!! lol about another 1% on a £300+ order


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## Nick Laguna UK (21 Jun 2021)

Sandyn said:


> The price for my steel restock made me have a look on the internet for a cheaper source than my usual supplier. I made up my list on Friday, but had to check some sizes for a gate I'm making. I took a snapshot of the order, because the site wouldn't save my basket. Went to place the order today and the cost has gone up since Friday!!! lol about another 1% on a £300+ order


1% is what it is on that order maybe and fair play in just a day that's no issues, but factories we deal with now say...


Frames for saws – 43%
Sheet metal – 100% - US and EU can hardly get it from China. Export from Tw increased by 89% in Q1. Woodworking machines are not the priority
Copper – 80%
Aluminum – 30%
Card board – 25%
If inflation doesn't start to rise in UK I will be v suprised.
Cheers all


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jun 2021)

Saturday I paid nearly £25 for 2 x 2.4m 3" x 2" CLS. (I could have hunted around, but needed them in a hurry.)

My wife works for a small Swedish bank - they have been warned to plan for negative interest rates. I wonder if/how that will affect inflation.


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## clive griffiths (21 Jun 2021)

I was told last week by a large merchant that 18mm sterling board will hit the £50 a sheet shortly 11mm sterling board is £28 at the present ( i have started to buy all my timber for my new workshop that i am starting to build in September).
Talking to a retired bank manager and he says possible inflation going up and a recesion to follow it,


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## stuart little (21 Jun 2021)

Even balsa wood is affected. It took me most of a day to eventually find some 1 & 3' lengths of 50 x 100mm blocks. at a reasonable price , avoiding the usual ebay rip-offs. Us modellers are being hit too. 90% price increase is quoted. The Chinese are snapping up as much as they can from PNG to meet the demand in core or end grain production that's used in wind turbine blade manufacture. The shipping co's have a lot to answer for. One load destined for Felixstowe couldn't be unloaded, so the ship continued to Rotterdam, to unload, the UK stuff had to wait to be shipped back to UK at the shipping co's Emergency Export Surcharge of $10000/40' 'Tin Box' !!!!!!!!!


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## CaptainBudget (21 Jun 2021)

Sandyn said:


> The price for my steel restock made me have a look on the internet for a cheaper source than my usual supplier. I made up my list on Friday, but had to check some sizes for a gate I'm making. I took a snapshot of the order, because the site wouldn't save my basket. Went to place the order today and the cost has gone up since Friday!!! lol about another 1% on a £300+ order



Sounds about right. We're having stockists quote price validity of 24hrs on stainless and mild steel, I've only ever known that on volatile materials like brass! Mild & Stainless steel quotes used to be valid for 1-2 weeks from most suppliers, and that's now gone out the window...

Prices appear to be rising daily across the board on metals.


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## Keith 66 (21 Jun 2021)

On the bright side i just purchased a 30kg pack of West System epoxy for an ongoing boat project, local supplier wanted £479 plus vat, East Coast fibreglass price £391 plus vat. Big saving!
To be honest though GRP prices are changeable they havent gone mad like timber & metals, Just yet!


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## Adam W. (21 Jun 2021)

Sherbert dip dab futures have gone through the roof.


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## Droogs (21 Jun 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Sherbert dip dab futures have gone through the roof.


But the bottom's fallen out of smarties tubes


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## topchippyles (21 Jun 2021)

Just about the right time to sell some of my timber stock i think


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## Doug B (21 Jun 2021)

My backs aching I’ve just fetched that much unsorted redwood


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## stuart little (22 Jun 2021)

Chimneys are also going through the roof!


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## Popey (22 Jun 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Sherbert dip dab futures have gone through the roof.


But there are some mouth watering deals on opal fruits...


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## Rorton (23 Jun 2021)

Blimey, I bought a 12mm sheet of birch ply in March for £31 incl vat, was going to buy one today. Now £67!


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## sometimewoodworker (24 Jun 2021)

Rorton said:


> Blimey, I bought a 12mm sheet of birch ply in March for £31 incl vat, was going to buy one today. Now £67!


You all got me concerned about plywood supply and costs. While I may make you envious, I just went and renewed my stock of A grade 20mm ply as I’ve used quite a bit and have a few projects planned 









when SWMBO called to check the prices she found that there has been no change since I bought the last sheets about 1 to 2 years ago it is still ฿1,020 per sheet or £22.95. I’m not sure if it’s locally produced or a reasonably good product from China

NB I just realised that it’s probably unusual in the U.K. and USA that one of the yard workers is a woman, here your likely to find anywhere from 20% to 40% of labourers are women




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Doug B (24 Jun 2021)

I don’t doubt your prices haven’t increased @sometimewoodworker its purely down to profiteering over here,with a different excuse for each price rise


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## sometimewoodworker (24 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> I don’t doubt your prices haven’t increased @sometimewoodworker its purely down to profiteering over here,with a different excuse for each price rise


No it isn’t.

Though it would be nice to think that.

There has been bad forecasting, much higher demand than anticipated, labour shortages, containers in the wrong places, people using the Just In Time general idea that only works if you really understand it and plan for when it fails (which most didn’t) and many other factors that have caused a perfect storm

Have suppliers charged a huge markup on stock they bought a while ago? Of course they have, because they have to replace it at a hugely higher wholesale cost. Is that profiteering? Absolutely not it’s the cost of doing business, and the way the free market works.

you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that all wood shops can profiteer like that. It’s one of the downsides of the capitalist society that you don’t like it is clear, that you don’t understand it seems also clear.

Are products still available? Yes, because the demand is lower because of high prices.

Would they still be available if the prices were lower? No, because the wholesalers can’t supply at the lower prices

Your choice is higher prices and available products or normal prices and no products at all.

Until things get back to a new normal you will not get lower prices and you probably won’t get them as low as they were in past because people will have to hold stock and that costs.


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## Doug B (25 Jun 2021)

I don’t agree ,putting up prices overnight by a minimum of 38% on stock all ready held & quoted on is by definition profiteering.
The only excuse given this time is “the industry“ want to kill demand so for every £100,000 held in stock my supplier is at least £38,000 richer for doing nothing more, yes he will pay more for new stock but that has nothing to do with the old stock.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Jun 2021)

Maybe not quite at this level yet (I don't know), but I remember selling cigarettes in the late '70s/early '80s when they went up by more than I was making on them - 77p to 91p. I put the increase on immediately as if I sold out I couldn't have afforded the new stock. I was called a robbing barsteward, of course.


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## J-G (25 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> *I don’t agree *,putting up prices overnight by a minimum of 38% on stock all ready held & quoted on is by definition profiteering.
> The only excuse given this time is “the industry“ want to kill demand so for every £100,000 held in stock my supplier is at least £38,000 richer for doing nothing more, yes he will pay more for new stock but that has nothing to do with the old stock.


Then you don't understand the basic concept of commodity business. What you paid for stock has very little to do with what you need to sell it for - the 'cost of replacement' is the driving factor.


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## Yojevol (25 Jun 2021)

Is this realistic @ £140/cu.ft?


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## Doug B (25 Jun 2021)

J-G said:


> Then you don't understand the basic concept of commodity business. What you paid for stock has very little to do with what you need to sell it for - the 'cost of replacement' is the driving factor.


My bad, 120% increase in some sheet materials over the last 18 months & no one is making any excessive profits, well there you go.


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## --Tom-- (25 Jun 2021)

If accurate shows the scale of some of the price increases in US


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## Jameshow (25 Jun 2021)

I paid £150 for 8 4.8m X 6x2 treated timber before Easter to make 2 planters. I waited until the funder had paid for the remaining 4 planters and the 2 I paid for, however when I went to pick it up I only had £50 returned back to me. I had quoted at one price but the timber had increased by %125 pc.

Cheers James


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## Spectric (25 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> My wife works for a small Swedish bank - they have been warned to plan for negative interest rates.


That must mean that as a customer you pay the bank to deposit money which means you might as well just spend it because it will buy more today than in the future.


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## Spectric (25 Jun 2021)

If everything goes mad then inflation will rise and eventually it will all come down like a stack of cards, savers will then gain whilst the rest just pay higher mortgages. It is the cycle of our economy, boom and bust.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Jun 2021)

That's been abolished.


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## sometimewoodworker (26 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> I don’t agree ,putting up prices overnight by a minimum of 38% on stock all ready held & quoted on is by definition profiteering.
> The only excuse given this time is “the industry“ want to kill demand so for every £100,000 held in stock my supplier is at least £38,000 richer for doing nothing more, yes he will pay more for new stock but that has nothing to do with the old stock.


Whether you agree or not, if you like it or not is irrelevant. It is the way the system functions and the way it has to function. 

The seller has to sell at a price that will enable him to make a business profit and replace the items that have been sold. The price he paid for the existing stock has virtually no need to influence the prices he needs to charge. If he can’t replace stock to a level that meets demand he will go out of business. 
In your opinion that makes him a profiteer.
My opinion of your ability to understand the way business works or think through when it is explained is impolite to say the least.

scenario an item wholesales for 50 and retails for 100, shop keeps 10 in stock. There is a sudden shortage and the wholesale jumps to 800 so retail would be around 1,400~1,600. 
By your logic the dealer should sell existing stock at 100 (a 1,300~1,500 loss) he would then have to borrow about 7,000 just to replace stock as there is existing demand.
Then should the supply return to previous levels how is he going to sell any items at a normal profit when he paid 800 but they are back to selling at 100.

the answer is he can’t and makes a huge loss. Goes out of business 

However if his prices follow the market when the prices are rising he makes a “paper” profit. & when they fall he makes a “paper” loss. Staying in business.


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## Doug B (26 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Whether you agree or not, if you like it or not is irrelevant. It is the way the system functions and the way it has to function.
> 
> The seller has to sell at a price that will enable him to make a business profit and replace the items that have been sold. The price he paid for the existing stock has virtually no need to influence the prices he needs to charge. If he can’t replace stock to a level that meets demand he will go out of business.
> In your opinion that makes him a profiteer.
> ...




#77


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> The seller has to sell at a price that will enable him to make a business profit and replace the items that have been sold. The price he paid for the existing stock has virtually no need to influence the prices he needs to charge. If he can’t replace stock to a level that meets demand he will go out of business.
> In your opinion that makes him a profiteer.











What is going on with wood prices right now


The price for my steel restock made me have a look on the internet for a cheaper source than my usual supplier. I made up my list on Friday, but had to check some sizes for a gate I'm making. I took a snapshot of the order, because the site wouldn't save my basket. Went to place the order today...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## stuart little (26 Jun 2021)

The same with road fuel, every time a price increase was announced it went on the pumps almost immediately.


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## RobinBHM (26 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Whether you agree or not, if you like it or not is irrelevant. It is the way the system functions and the way it has to function.
> 
> The seller has to sell at a price that will enable him to make a business profit and replace the items that have been sold. The price he paid for the existing stock has virtually no need to influence the prices he needs to charge. If he can’t replace stock to a level that meets demand he will go out of business.
> In your opinion that makes him a profiteer.
> ...



It also isn't just cost per item.

If there is a shortage of supplies that means suppliers can't sell the same volume and they have to recover overheads from lower sales.


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## sometimewoodworker (26 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> #77


Learning from information that is new demonstrates intelligence and flexibility.

You are demonstrating that neither of these apply probably the opposite of them is true. 

Of course it could be that you have an active desire to be argumentative.


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## Jameshow (26 Jun 2021)

Someone is making excessive profits and I doubt it's the woodyard. More likely the wood harvesters, shipping companies, speculators and middle men...... 

Also if the price of wood is going up, surely it's hurting the biomass power stations like drax?? 

Cheers James


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## Doug B (26 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Learning from information that is new demonstrates intelligence and flexibility.
> 
> You are demonstrating that neither of these apply probably the opposite of them is true.
> 
> Of course it could be that you have an active desire to be argumentative.


I have no desire at all to be argumentative, I simply voiced my belief about these massive price rises, if anything you appear to argumentative in that you are being personally insulting because I don’t agree with you.

If you don’t believe these price rises are excessive & are completely justified with no one making big profits you are more than welcome to that point of view it just doesn’t happen to be mine.


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## sometimewoodworker (27 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> If you don’t believe these price rises are excessive & are completely justified with no one making big profits you are more than welcome to that point of view it just doesn’t happen to be mine.



If the price rises are as excessive as you think, there will be suppliers who will undercut to make sales, there is no cartel. 

If the price rises are as excessive as you think, there will be no buyers, if there are no buyers the companies will go out of business as they need cash flow to stay in business.

If the price rises are as excessive as you think, there could be companies who may close down and then they could realise the paper profits and make them real.

if you don’t appreciate that the selling price today is based on the replacement cost of products not the buying cost of the stock, then if you were in business today your business life would be rather short.

That businesses may be selling at a higher buying to selling margin is not surprising (it happens in all markets when prices are rising)
That businesses are making a normal to slightly higher selling to replacement differential would also not be surprising as wholesale prices are still going up and they knowledge has to be built into the selling prices.

Short term companies may make bigger than usual profits, long term probably not as the profits of today have to pay for the inevitable losses when the prices start falling.
TTFN


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## Doug B (27 Jun 2021)

The price rises are excessive, it’s not just me saying it it’s also what my supplier has said it was also he who worked out that there had been a 120% increase in the last 18 months on some sheet materials & also he who said that the latest hike is an industry wide increase, so while I’m not suggesting there is a cartel it is questionable as to why, especially when you have said there has been no price rise for ply in your part of the world.

As for not lasting long in business this my 24th year running my own business but no doubt I’m just lucky.


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## sometimewoodworker (27 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> so while I’m not suggesting there is a cartel it is questionable as to why, especially when you have said there has been no price rise for ply in your part of the world.


The reason is almost certainly that there is no, or little, problem with supply here. The round trip times to China were only briefly inerupted and local delivery hasn’t been a problem since until very recently Covid-19 was completely controlled. 

If shipping were normal then product for the local market would have to compete with product destined for the USA & U.K. but since the container traffic is so badly screwed up the market is local not global and wood is not a main building material here.


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## Doug B (27 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> The reason is almost certainly that there is no, or little, problem with supply here. The round trip times to China were only briefly inerupted and local delivery hasn’t been a problem since until very recently Covid-19 was completely controlled.
> 
> If shipping were normal then product for the local market would have to compete with product destined for the USA & U.K. but since the container traffic is so badly screwed up the market is local not global and wood is not a main building material here.


Rest assured I understand what you are saying but let me relate a to why I don’t believe these price increases in he UK are totally justifiable.
19 months ago I fitted an Oak internal door for a customer on a long term ongoing job, 3 months ago she asked me to fit another so I placed the order for a door but due to delays with supply & shipping as they are made in the Far East it only came in last week.
Now bearing in mind this is new stock & the massive increases on timber & sheet materials we have seen I was dreading asking the price, turned out it was no different to the one I bought 19 months ago.
I can’t believe the companies involved n making & supplying the door have swallowed the costs associated with the reasons given over the last 18 months for the ongoing price increases so quite clearly something doesn’t add up & why personally I think we are being taken for a ride.


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## LeeAkeroyd (27 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> I don’t agree ,putting up prices overnight by a minimum of 38% on stock all ready held & quoted on is by definition profiteering.
> The only excuse given this time is “the industry“ want to kill demand so for every £100,000 held in stock my supplier is at least £38,000 richer for doing nothing more, yes he will pay more for new stock but that has nothing to do with the old stock.



Times are difficult and the price increases we've seen in the timber industry are unprecedented and caused by numerous factors. 

Whilst it appears abhorrent that companies are charging more for stock they've clearly bought pre increase please bear in mind that the material your supplier has now will have to be renewed. At the point of this renewal your supplier has to pay significantly more, if they haven't worked on the replacement cost then the finance won't be there to pay for the same volume of material at the new price level.

Ultimately this will lead to your supplier buying less volume, having to eat through any cash reserves or having to finance/borrow (at a cost to the business) money to pay for material.


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## Doug B (27 Jun 2021)

I do realise this @LeeAkeroyd my supplier was good enough to inform me prior to the latest hike to give me time to stock up & I now have a considerable sum of money, I’d prefer not to have, tied up in timber.
It doesn’t explain how a sheet of veneered chipboard or plywood can have gone up so much yet a door more than likely made from chipboard & veneer hasn’t. Over the last 18 months these gradual increases have added to a massive % increase & been blamed on lack of stock, shipping problems, Brexit, covid etc etc but clearly oak internal doors are immune from this


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> I do realise this @LeeAkeroyd my supplier was good enough to inform me prior to the latest hike to give me time to stock up & I now have a considerable sum of money, I’d prefer not to have, tied up in timber.



I assume you're you're going to charge out this stock at the old prices? You'll be robbing people if not.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jun 2021)

Just carry on, we in the woodwork industry are in a boom, make the most of it.


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## Doug B (27 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I assume you're you're going to charge out this stock at the old prices? You'll be robbing people if not.


It’s all earmarked for work I’ve agreed to do so no I won’t be robbing my customers, more fool me aye


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## Droogs (27 Jun 2021)

Are you guys aware that apparently, a cargo ship with 300 containers of wood was diverted 24 hours out from Felixstowe to the US by the owners last week, after they got a much better off from importers there. The original destination for the timber was here. An importer friend of mine was telling me the other day


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## Jameshow (27 Jun 2021)

Droogs said:


> Are you guys aware that apparently, a cargo ship with 300 containers of wood was diverted 24 hours out from Felixstowe to the US by the owners last week, after they got a much better off from importers there. The original destination for the timber was here. An importer friend of mine was telling me the other day


No contract that was broken? 

Cheers James


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## Droogs (27 Jun 2021)

Dunno , was told in passing during a phone call conversation


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## Daniel2 (27 Jun 2021)

I believe, with these sort of cargos, there is no contract, as such.
Up until delivery, it's available to the highest bidder.
I may be wrong, it has been known.


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## sometimewoodworker (27 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> It’s all earmarked for work I’ve agreed to do so no I won’t be robbing my customers, more fool me aye


Your case and others in a similar situation are in a very different business than the wood yards. As you will, assuming normal practice, have quoted for a piece based on a price of material + usual other costs, got a deposit that will cover material and immediately purchased your raw stock.
So for the next piece, if raw material has gone up your price will have to go up unless the material costs are a small fraction of the final price.
If you are buying wood for items that are not yet commissioned then you need to add in the storage, financing and replacement costs to be practical.

Edit. If you do non commissioned work and have stock items. Then you will either have to price on current material costs or price in a large profit margin so you can ignore large jumps in raw material costs.


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## RobinBHM (27 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> selling price today is based on the replacement cost of products not the buying cost of the stock


that is interesting -not something I had considered

Clearly the business model of distributors is quite different from manufacturers.


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## TheTiddles (28 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Just carry on, we in the woodwork industry are in a boom, make the most of it.


Come on Bob, get with the programme, why post something unless it’s a moan?

You must know the form by now, but here’s a pro forma if it helps…

This is terrible/awful/the worst thing that’s ever happen in my life.

I remember back in the day (which could have been last week) you could buy “insert huge quantity” for “insert small price”, I have no idea what’s happening but I heard “insert at least 3rd hand testimony” so that explains it.

Maybe offer up a straw-man argument as to why supply and demand and commercial economics isn’t the obvious cause?

Do it Bob, you know you want to!


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