# New Graphite Clifton 5 1/2 Passaround



## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2014)

This is the passaround for the new graphite 5 ½ Jack Plane incorporating the new Clifton 01 Cryogenically treated plane blade.

I will pull an unopened Clifton box off the shelf and send it out to the first person on the list. 

If you are interested please copy and paste the list into your reply and add your username at the bottom, then send a private message with your real name and postal address, to the person named before you on the list.

I do have some videos I made with Mick from Clifton last year which I hope to put on YouTube soon; they explain the philosophy behind the Clifton brand and explain how they are made which you may find of interest. 

To have a play with the plane you need to have been a forum member since the 1st October 2014 and have posted at least 50 posts to date.

I will send out the plane and then each participant will need to send it onto the next on the list by signed for delivery and to be fair to other users only within mainland UK Zone 1. Feel free to have the plane for a few days, give it a good workout and let us know your thoughts and post any photos and reviews of its performance. To keep things moving along for everyone please only have it for a few days.

Enjoy the plane and give us feedback about the "new kid on the block" from Sheffield!

The plane will be going out to 

Nickwelford

Cheers Peter


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## NickWelford (9 Nov 2014)

Can I please start the list?

Nickwelford


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## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2014)

Nick your more than welcome, just PM me with your full name and address and we will send it out to you when we get our first batch of stock in.

Cheers Peter


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## Ed Bray (9 Nov 2014)

Oh so tempting, but whilst I can persuade my wife to buy me the Woodriver #6 I doubt she would pay the extra needed for a Clifton #6 and if I tried it and liked it, I would always be regretful if I bought the Woodriver in its stead.

I have just noticed that the #6 on your website Peter is still in BRG, does this come with the newer cryogenic blade or an older type? If the older type how much ore would the newer blade cost to have fitted? (Just for curiosity you understand).


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## G S Haydon (9 Nov 2014)

I urge anyone to try this out. Not often you get a chance to play with stuff like this. I will be on the list but I will leave myself until last as I have a WR I need to write about.


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## Peter Sefton (9 Nov 2014)

Ed Bray":4slpkvj2 said:


> Oh so tempting, but whilst I can persuade my wife to buy me the Woodriver #6 I doubt she would pay the extra needed for a Clifton #6 and if I tried it and liked it, I would always be regretful if I bought the Woodriver in its stead.
> 
> I have just noticed that the #6 on your website Peter is still in BRG, does this come with the newer cryogenic blade or an older type? If the older type how much ore would the newer blade cost to have fitted? (Just for curiosity you understand).



Ed your right the No 6 Clifton on the tool shop is green the last remaining stock before the new graphite come in. This plane has the original OI hand forger blade possibly with a wonky stamp! 

All new planes will have the new O1 cryogenic blades, sorry I don't have the pricing to hand.

Cheers Peter


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## Vann (10 Nov 2014)

Peter Sefton":1qhiout8 said:


> ...to be fair to other users only within mainland UK Zone 1.





Peter Sefton":1qhiout8 said:


> I do have some videos I made with Mick from Clifton last year which I hope to put on YouTube soon; they explain the philosophy behind the Clifton brand and explain how they are made which you may find of interest.


As I'm very slightly, just out of Zone 1, I'll have to settle for watching the videos. I'm looking forward seeing them.



Peter Sefton":1qhiout8 said:


> This plane has the original OI hand forger blade possibly with a wonky stamp!


That's a shame. I liked the deep stamp. A bit of the past, surviving into modern times. Like the BRG, I'll miss it.



Peter Sefton":1qhiout8 said:


> All new planes will have the new O1 cryogenic blades...


Hi Peter. What is the expected effect of the cryogenic treatment on the iron? I know the hand forged iron was supposed to realign the grain structure in the iron to give superior edge retention, yet Derek Cohen found the Clifton iron wanting, in a recent review of chuting planes (maybe the Aussie timbers were a step too far?).

Cheers, Vann.


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## Self Taught (10 Nov 2014)

vann,

I feel your pain, as I am also just a tad outside of postal zone one. Jamey


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## Peter Sefton (10 Nov 2014)

Vann to answer your question, you are right Derek amongst others have found the blades edge retention a little lacking on occasions (what do you expect if you use timbers suitable for railway sleepers) :mrgreen: 

My understanding is that the cryogenic treatment on the O1 iron addresses this.

The original O1 steel did produce a very sharp edge and this was achieved very quickly and easily but the payoff could be edge retention. This historically was not an issue in the UK with our mild air-dried timbers but as more exotic timbers come into play, more exotic steels have been produced to cope with demand.

A2 was meant to be our saviour but although A2 should have good edge retention it could be difficult to sharpen and would break down if honed at low angles. It looks like Veritas are now dropping A2 in favour of O1 and PMV11 (not my favourite). 

I am not sure of the scientific qualities of the new O1 cryogenic iron steel but at the Furniture School we blind tested a selection of blades for Clifton.

We had no information of what each blade was or any indication of steels or processing. It was really fun and intriguing at the same time and done without prejudice.

Of the blades we tested it turns out the new O1 cryogenic blade was the flattest, quickest to sharpen and held the edge the longest. I think the original Clifton blade was within the test and my feeling was it came in second place. I may never know the answer! 

I feel the new blade is as quick to sharpen, gets a great edge but will hold it longer than the old one. 

So it will be interesting to see how it is received on the pass around, but one thing is for sure, no-one will complain about a hand forged wonky stamp as these are laser cut and engraved!

Cheers Peter


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## Vann (10 Nov 2014)

Thanks Peter for a very informative answer.

Fortunately here in New Zealand our "native" timbers are more like your English trees than the knarly silcon impregnated timber found across the ditch in Australia. So my old Clifton irons might still be usable #-o .

I'm sad to say I haven't used them enough to have formed an opinion on edge retention - though my Clfton No.3 is the smoother I reach for, for fine finishing (what little I do  ).

Cheers, Vann.

ps When the supply of jarrah sleepers ran out, we used treated pine sleepers for some years, but now we use main concrete sleepers. I don't suppose even Derek's A2 irons would retain an edge for long on them... :mrgreen:


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## bugbear (10 Nov 2014)

Peter Sefton":3uy1jfcb said:


> I am not sure of the scientific qualities of the new O1 cryogenic iron steel but at the Furniture School we blind tested a selection of blades for Clifton.
> 
> We had no information of what each blade was or any indication of steels or processing. It was really fun and intriguing at the same time and done without prejudice.



_Facts, not opinions.
_
* -- David Kirkaldy*

 

BugBear


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## tim burr (10 Nov 2014)

Can I have a play as well please? :mrgreen: 

Don't think I've pushed in front of anyone else, 


Nickwelford
tim burr


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## Peter Sefton (10 Nov 2014)

tim burr":cx6zhxjw said:


> Can I have a play as well please? :mrgreen:
> 
> Don't think I've pushed in front of anyone else,
> 
> ...




Nickwelford
tim burr

Thanks guys for taking part.
Cheers Peter


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## NickWelford (10 Nov 2014)

Pm me your name and address Mr Tim.


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## Tony Zaffuto (11 Nov 2014)

Suppose here over in the states, it's time to start scouring the dealers that sold the green Cliftons for close-out buys! I'm passed my disappointment in the green giving way to gray (not really a big deal!), but I love the O1 blade in my #3 and never have had an issue with the domestic wood (US-cherry, walnut, poplar and some white oak) I use. Wouldn't mind picking up an iron or two, just to have (plus the hand stamp is just something that should remain!).

Again, I wish Thomas Flinn all the best and am glad to see a manufacturer adhere to quality in their tools.


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## jimi43 (13 Nov 2014)

Peter Sefton":3oicscau said:


> A2 was meant to be our saviour but although A2 should have good edge retention it could be difficult to sharpen and would break down if honed at low angles. It looks like Veritas are now dropping A2 in favour of O1 and PMV11 (not my favourite).



At last an empirical statement from someone who I trust to say in one sentence what I have felt all along. :wink: 

And my O1 steel irons don't need no fancy cryogenic treatment either...it's bloody freezing out in the workshop as it is! :mrgreen: 

Thanks Peter!

Jim


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## Peter Sefton (13 Nov 2014)

I am hoping to get my stock of new Clifton's over the next couple of day's. I will get one out in the post to Nickwelford and be taking some to Harrogate to play with. I am hoping for a few new planes not seen in the UK before.

Cheers Peter


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## Sheffield Tony (13 Nov 2014)

Will Thomas Flinn be offering a hand forged O1 blade with a jaunty stamp as an option ? I rather liked them. Unlike the Clifton 2 piece cap iron, it is better than the original Record ones.

Very tempted to join in for a play though...


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## Peter Sefton (13 Nov 2014)

Sheffield Tony":3phy89mo said:


> Will Thomas Flinn be offering a hand forged O1 blade with a jaunty stamp as an option ? I rather liked them. Unlike the Clifton 2 piece cap iron, it is better than the original Record ones.
> 
> Very tempted to join in for a play though...



We have spoken about it but no final decision yet, we still have stock of replacement blades and I have some of my own.

You are more than welcome to be added to the list, just let us know.

Cheers Peter


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## Paul Chapman (13 Nov 2014)

Hope they retain the embossed brand name which is forged into the blade during manufacture. It just seems so right for a hand forged carbon steel blade made the proper way.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## G S Haydon (21 Nov 2014)

Nickwelford
tim burr
Graham Haydon

Just sent you a PM tim.


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## Newbie_Neil (25 Nov 2014)

Hi Paul,



Paul Chapman":3bkg54ul said:


> Hope they retain the embossed brand name which is forged into the blade during manufacture. It just seems so right for a hand forged carbon steel blade made the proper way.



Whilst at the Harrogate show I tried the BRG 5 1/2 and I was very impressed. When I looked at the BRG and the cryogenic version, I must say that the BRG was the one for me as it was so full of character.

I'm not a Clifton owner, but I wish that funds had allowed me to walk away with the BRG. :lol: 

Neil


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## Newbie_Neil (25 Nov 2014)

Also, what are your first impressions of the cryogenically treated plane blade?


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## Peter Sefton (4 Dec 2014)

Newbie_Neil":2h9j7w01 said:


> Also, what are your first impressions of the cryogenically treated plane blade?




Hi Neil

Sorry for the slow reply it's been non stop here since Harrogate and our own in-house show. 

We were part of the testing team for the new blade, our feeling was that it sharpens as easily as the old O1, gets a very good edge and holds it slightly longer than the old blade.

Cheers Peter


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":ilznldav said:


> ... new blade, our feeling was that it sharpens as easily as the old O1, gets a very good edge and holds it slightly longer than the old blade.



Well, that sounds good!

BugBear


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## Newbie_Neil (5 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":gtp3h0ft said:


> Newbie_Neil":gtp3h0ft said:
> 
> 
> > Also, what are your first impressions of the cryogenically treated plane blade?
> ...



Thank you, Peter.


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## Peter Sefton (5 Dec 2014)

The Clifton is now out on the pass around, we sent it out to Nickwelford yesterday. If any one would like to join in just add your name to the list.

Cheers Peter


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## NickWelford (5 Dec 2014)

Unfortunately I was at the vets with the dog when they arrived, so hopefully I'll get it on Monday.


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## Peter Sefton (9 Jan 2015)

Nick has finished with the plane and it is now on it's way to Tim Burr.

Cheers Peter


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## Peter Sefton (9 Jan 2015)

I must have missed this over Christmas time but Nick posted his feedback on the Clifton.

tis-a-thing-of-beauty-t85582.html

Thanks for your thoughts I have heard mention of the front screw protruding and will high-light this to Clifton.

Cheers Peter


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jan 2015)

Peter Sefton":27s9zhgp said:


> I have heard mention of the front screw protruding and will high-light this to Clifton.



Peter, on the 10 year Anniversary Cliftons, they fitted a slightly different screw head to the front knob. That had a small chamfer around the edge of the brass screw head which would help to overcome this problem.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## mtr1 (9 Jan 2015)

Don't know if I'm to late, but could I be added to the list? Guess not, cheers.

Nickwelford
tim burr
Graham Haydon
Mark Rhodes 

Pm on the way


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## Peter Sefton (10 Jan 2015)

mtr1":1pm3iyih said:


> Don't know if I'm to late, but could I be added to the list?




No problem Mark just cut and paste the list and add your name after Graham's. Then PM Graham with your name and address and copy me please.

Cheers Peter


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## G S Haydon (8 Feb 2015)

Hi Mark, 

Will be on it's way early next week.

G


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## richarddownunder (11 Feb 2015)

Hi All

any more reviews on the plane, it seems to have been through a few hands?

Cheers
Richard


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## NickWelford (11 Feb 2015)

I was wondering that too.


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## Peter Sefton (11 Feb 2015)

It has gone a little quiet but we do all have busy lives. 

I have finally managed to post the videos that I made last year with Mick Hudson from Clifton. You may find out a little more about Clifton's from watching them or just think it's two ageing men talking about planes! (which it is)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ZN80PKDco

Cheers Peter


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## mtr1 (12 Feb 2015)

G S Haydon":3brm38rw said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Will be on it's way early next week.
> 
> G



Have you sent it Graham? 

I will do some kind of review and comparison.


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## G S Haydon (12 Feb 2015)

Hi Mark,

Sorry to keep you waiting , out and about! Will get it done tomorrow. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

G


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## richarddownunder (12 Feb 2015)

Interesting videos Peter, its fascinating to see how many processes are involved in making a plane and the trouble that is taken to ensure the castings are stable etc

Cheers
Richard
.


Peter Sefton":1ehilumb said:


> It has gone a little quiet but we do all have busy lives.
> 
> I have finally managed to post the videos that I made last year with Mick Hudson from Clifton. You may find out a little more about Clifton's from watching them or just think it's two ageing men talking about planes! (which it is)
> 
> ...


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## Peter Sefton (14 Feb 2015)

richarddownunder":i255esmw said:


> Interesting videos Peter, its fascinating to see how many processes are involved in making a plane and the trouble that is taken to ensure the castings are stable etc
> 
> Cheers
> Richard
> ...



Thanks Richard, I learnt a lot talking with Mick about some of the finer points of plane design. We tried to cover most of them within the videos but trying to edit a fews hours into twenty something minutes is tricky.

We posted one more yesterday and the final one goes out next Friday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGTUHoPEobM

Cheers Peter


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## richarddownunder (15 Feb 2015)

Must say I'm a fan of the 2-piece cap iron. The SS Record plane I have (pictured) that was rescued from certain death is one of my favorites (no, the table isn't very flat is it!). I think the cap iron function is probably underestimated. I made a 3 mm thick stainless steel cap iron, not a 2-part job, but even that (pictured) improved my #5 standard Record a great deal. IMHO the 2-piece is even better at pressing down on the blade.

Anyway, not having seen the Clifton 51/2 in any of its its graphite glory, I have still just ordered one along with a pear-handled Pax dovetail saw. I'll post my impressions of the new plane compared with my 2005 Clifton #4 when it arrives in a few weeks time. I'm hoping it will be as good or better in terms of fit and finish!


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## mtr1 (19 Feb 2015)

Did you send it Graham? No biggy if you haven't.


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## G S Haydon (19 Feb 2015)

Mark, no! I'm so sorry to keep holding this up! I can sense the need to use the beast is growing, will be with you shortly!


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## mtr1 (19 Feb 2015)

Like I said no biggy, I was just worried it had got lost.


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## G S Haydon (23 Feb 2015)

Mark, it's being collected by Hermes tomorrow. Sorry to both Peter & Mark for taking so long!


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## Peter Sefton (23 Feb 2015)

No worries

Cheers Peter


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## G S Haydon (23 Feb 2015)

Thanks Peter! It's been fun trying out the WR and C.


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## mtr1 (27 Feb 2015)

The plane has landed.....


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## Peter Sefton (27 Feb 2015)

Thanks for letting me know, just an update the new ones are now coming with a brand new brass Yoke.

https://www.facebook.com/woodworkerswor ... tif_t=like

Cheers Peter


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## richarddownunder (28 Feb 2015)

Nice to see the frog from my new 51/2 featuring  ! The plane has landed in NZ but sadly the customs have nabbed it. Hopefully I can extract it from their sticky mits quickly after parting with appropriate cash and am really looking forward to making some shavings.

What is the purpose of moving to a brass Y lever? Is it just smoother operation, brass being 'self lubricating'?

Cheers
Richard


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## mtr1 (28 Feb 2015)

So the plane arrived yesterday, and I had some doors to shoot in and hang this morning so thought this would be a nice test of the plane and the important bit for me, the iron. The reason for wanting to try this plane was twofold, I'm in the market for a new No 7 so thought this plane is of similar size and would give me an overview of the quality of Clifton, and would give me a chance to try the iron out. I have had variable results with modern irons from the states, at least the ones I've tried, so I needed to try before I buy so to speak. Anyway on with the test.

It looks nice, but that's not important to me as long as it works. The casting looks clean and tidy, the sides and sole are nicely polished, and flat and true. There are a couple of dings here and there, but presumably this wouldn't be the same as one sent to a client?





the front knob screw protrudes too much for me, but that's an easy fix, but why is it like that? That said it didn't effect any of my work today because I don't hold the knob with my palm down on top. If you do hold the knob palm down, you are going to get a blister if you don't address this imho.





The iron was the bit I was looking forward to trying out the most, as I said above I've had variable results from another well know American manufacturer. I wanted to try this iron side by side with the T10 irons I've been using for a few years now with great results. The iron came dull for me to sharpen to my liking...I think  So I sharpened it my way by hand on a fine diamond stone, then on to some very fine slate followed by taking the burr off. Only it didn't come off, upon further inspection I noticed the ruler trick had been applied, I don't normally bother doing this but seeing as it had been done already I did the same, followed by stropping. Hairs bouncing off my arm the planing can begin.





I've no idea what Cryogenic treating does to an iron? So I just cracked on with the doors for this Oak wardrobe, Oak is probably my most used timber so this is a decent test for iron. 





Test cut, shiny.





Shoot the top in.





And one side.









I repeated this four times and the job is done.





My impressions are that this iron may have the edge on the T10 and the plane is lovely to use, so looks like I may need to save some pennies for the No 7.


so you can hear it's still sharp on my last door, clickity click.





I also used the plane on a shooting board to make some door stops, still sharp.





Overall I like the plane and iron so I would recommend it, I have only used it on native hardwoods so far, so would like to keep it a bit longer if I may?


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## Peter Sefton (28 Feb 2015)

richarddownunder":1jppkt9z said:


> Nice to see the frog from my new 51/2 featuring  ! The plane has landed in NZ but sadly the customs have nabbed it. Hopefully I can extract it from their sticky mits quickly after parting with appropriate cash and am really looking forward to making some shavings.
> 
> What is the purpose of moving to a brass Y lever? Is it just smoother operation, brass being 'self lubricating'?
> 
> ...




Wow Richard that was quick I only packed it on Tuesday or Wednesday!

The original cast Yoke was designed as a pressure valve and designed to snap if over stressed. The feeling was this would be better than shearing any threads if users over tensioned the lever cap. I have only know one to break this was from a strapping big lad that had previously done a short course with us. We carry spares and sent one out to him FOC. I understand this has been an area of contension and have heard on this forum people unhappy with this pressure valve idea. 

When Flinn's took over the Clifton range they introduced a new welded Yoke which is in the current plane on pass around. After testing the plane I gave them my personal feedback which was that although the Yoke was perfectly serviceable I felt is didn't look as good as the previous version. They have been working on and have now released the new cast brass version which I feel looks much better.

Cheers Peter


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## Paul Chapman (28 Feb 2015)

mtr1":1u78dyht said:


> the front knob screw protrudes too much for me, but that's an easy fix, but why is it like that? That said it didn't effect any of my work today because I don't hold the knob with my palm down on top. If you do hold the knob palm down, you are going to get a blister if you don't address this imho.



Mark, if you unscrew the brass nut, you'll probably find that there are two or three washers underneath. Remove these and it will lower the level of the brass nut.

Nice review.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Peter Sefton (28 Feb 2015)

mtr1":2gneo8k9 said:


> So the plane arrived yesterday, and I had some doors to shoot in and hang this morning so thought this would be a nice test of the plane and the important bit for me, the iron. The reason for wanting to try this plane was twofold, I'm in the market for a new No 7 so thought this plane is of similar size and would give me an overview of the quality of Clifton, and would give me a chance to try the iron out. I have had variable results with modern irons from the states, at least the ones I've tried, so I needed to try before I buy so to speak. Anyway on with the test.
> 
> It looks nice, but that's not important to me as long as it works. The casting looks clean and tidy, the sides and sole are nicely polished, and flat and true. There are a couple of dings here and there, but presumably this wouldn't be the same as one sent to a client?
> 
> ...



Mark

Thanks for taking the time to give the plane a good workout and sharing your thoughts.

I am pleased you like the plane and that you rate the new blade.

We blind tested the new steel last year for Clifton along with some others. We felt this steel out performed the others on test which included the old O1 blade which I later found out came second in our testing. This was not a scientific test just some woodworkers grinding,sharpening and planing a range of timbers and commenting on the results.

Please feel free to keep the plane a little longer to continue your assessment.

Cheers Peter


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## Vann (28 Feb 2015)

richarddownunder":1upnkmfa said:


> The plane has landed in NZ but sadly the customs have nabbed it. Hopefully I can extract it from their sticky mits quickly after parting with appropriate cash and am really looking forward to making some shavings.


That's unusual, in my experience. Usually customs don't bother with anything unless it's approaching $750 NZD (~ £370) and a Clifton No.5 1/2 when you take off the VAT should sell around £260 - which should come in under $550 NZD. I don't think they take the shipping cost into account when assessing GST?

Did you get Peter to fill the parcel with other bits and pieces (or drugs :wink: )?

Cheers, Vann.


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## Peter Sefton (28 Feb 2015)

Vann":3ju9wwm0 said:


> richarddownunder":3ju9wwm0 said:
> 
> 
> > The plane has landed in NZ but sadly the customs have nabbed it. Hopefully I can extract it from their sticky mits quickly after parting with appropriate cash and am really looking forward to making some shavings.
> ...



A few more little goodies from the UK

Cheers Peter


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## mtr1 (1 Mar 2015)

Part two to follow, more of a side by side comparison this time.


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## richarddownunder (1 Mar 2015)

Vann":19nuu5b9 said:


> richarddownunder":19nuu5b9 said:
> 
> 
> > The plane has landed in NZ but sadly the customs have nabbed it. Hopefully I can extract it from their sticky mits quickly after parting with appropriate cash and am really looking forward to making some shavings.
> ...



Hi Vann

I have had things stopped at a little over $400 so I figured I'd probably have to pay something - anyway, yes I also got a dovetail saw (no drugs as far as I know) as posting individual items costs the earth...so its a bit of a gamble as sometimes customs miss them altogether. The ratbags also add handling fees, inspection fees, biosecurity fees, coffee break fees, you name it as well as GST. They also add GST to the fees, which really irritates me :evil: ! Anyway, its paid and the tools will be here tomorrow I hope. As Peter said, amazingly quick from UK to NZ.


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## mtr1 (1 Mar 2015)

So I guess the Cliftons main contemporary is a L/N so lets put them side by side and see how it compares.

Lever caps, I'm only going to show the bit that counts which of course is the flat area that presses down on the cap iron. Here you can see that the clifton has more metal engaging on the cap iron than the L/N, not sure if this matters much but its a step in the right direction from Clifton. Both are well made, but if we are going for looks both have there plus points, bronze is more attractive perhaps but I like the polished surface on the Clifton and it says Clifton in case I forget which plane I'm using. 





Frogs, The L/N has more surface to bear on at the top, but the important bit is at the bottom where both are the same. Take from that what you will.





Cap irons, top L/N, bot Clifton.





Right L/N, left Clifton. Notice the shine in the Clifton, this is a nice touch.





I noticed a tiny bit of play with the stay set cap iron, I've never used one or seen one so I will let others say if this is normal?









Lever arms, here I think L/N has the edge on the Clifton.









The fit when all back together, both nice and solid.









frog adjusting wheel.

Clifton.




L/N.




Handles, I found the Clifton more comfortable to use after prolonged periods, but I would be splitting hairs if I'm honest.













Onto the irons and planing, both sharpened by hand in this case, Clifton with the ruler trick, and the T10 not. Take from that what you will, but they are both sharp.













After they had both planed the Oak and the MDF they were both dull but could still plane and take a decent shaving. So I decided to get a piece of rock maple and plane a side a piece.

Gnarly bit of rock maple, I don't expect either to a decent job..and they didn't. The Clifton was the nicer to use, Mainly because of the bigger handle and the extra weight.





Both ended up looking like this.





So both were re-sharpened,, and both gave a lovely smooth surface with no tearout.





A few numbers if that makes any difference.

Blade thickness.

Clifton-3.42 mm
T10-3.12 mm
L/N A2 3.29 mm
L/N O1 3.21 mm

Backlash.

Clifton 1 full turn
L/N 1/2 turn

Sharpening time, don't know how useful this will be as one had the ruler trick, and I'm not used to the stayset cap iron.

L/N 1 min 50 second
Clifton 2 mins 40 seconds

Thinnest shaving I could get

L/N with T10 0.03 mm
Clifton 0.02 mm

In conclusion I found the machining on the L/N slightly better finished but that is reflected in the price. I feel that Clifton could get this right with perhaps 1/2hr or an hour extra time. This is only looks of course and has no bearing on what the the plane can do. They both plane very well, there isn't much in it tbh I couldn't pick between them, but if pushed I pick the Clifton over my L/N with T10 Iron fitted, the Clifton iron edges the T10. But I do like the look off the L/N......make the Clifton a bit nicer and I'm completely sold.


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## xy mosian (1 Mar 2015)

Some really great reviews here, and the photography is superb.
However a question. I was expecting the frogs, of both planes, to be held in place by slot head screws. I cannot tell if hexagon heads have been used. If not then how is the frog loosened, to adjust or to be removed?

xy


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## mtr1 (1 Mar 2015)

Paul Chapman":3d7vmctq said:


> mtr1":3d7vmctq said:
> 
> 
> > the front knob screw protrudes too much for me, but that's an easy fix, but why is it like that? That said it didn't effect any of my work today because I don't hold the knob with my palm down on top. If you do hold the knob palm down, you are going to get a blister if you don't address this imho.
> ...



I took the brass top bolt off and took a look, one washer, if I take that out the brass is bearing on the rosewood. The brass bolt is different to everyone of my other plane in that it has a domed top. I tried my hardest today to get a blister using it, but didn't anyway, but my hands are rather like leather.


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## mtr1 (1 Mar 2015)

xy mosian":8njv6vlo said:


> Some really great reviews here, and the photography is superb.
> However a question. I was expecting the frogs, of both planes, to be held in place by slot head screws. I cannot tell if hexagon heads have been used. If not then how is the frog loosened, to adjust or to be removed?
> 
> xy



Both are Bedrock planes and adjust from the back, scroll up to my pic of the frog adjusting wheel and you will see how they are adjusted.


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## xy mosian (1 Mar 2015)

Ok I see how they can be adjusted. 
Can the frog not be removed? 
What happens if the the frog/bed is not tight enough?

xy


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## Peter Sefton (1 Mar 2015)

xy mosian":2stodfvc said:


> Ok I see how they can be adjusted.
> Can the frog not be removed?
> What happens if the the frog/bed is not tight enough?
> 
> xy



This is one of the videos I made last year with Mick Hudson of Clifton. In this video we dismantle and talk about the fixings and benefits of the Bedrock frog over the conventional system. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpRc4rsTSEE

This second video show me setting up another Bedrock frog in a WoodRiver plane, this is a bit more of a close up which might help explain the setting up procedure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDYM-4i45tI 

Cheers Peter


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## mtr1 (1 Mar 2015)

The funny thing with bedrock planes/ frogs in general, is that they are a bit like adjustable shelves, adjusted once then left alone. The frog can be removed via the two screws at the back, I think, like I said adjusted once then left alone it must be years since I've felt inclined to adjust mine.


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## xy mosian (1 Mar 2015)

Thank you both gentlemen. 
I agree about the adjustment/ frog removal Mark, but I do like to know these things.
Peter, thank you for those links. As you say they explain everything.
xy


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## Peter Sefton (1 Mar 2015)

I noticed a tiny bit of play with the stay set cap iron, I've never used one or seen one so I will let others say if this is normal?

Hi Mark, thanks for taking the time to give it a full workout.

The Clifton two piece cap iron or stay set as they used to be called is designed to pivot on the back fixing pin. People are inclined to file these flat to (make a better fit) but this is a mistake. The intension is when the pressure from the lever cap is applied the cap iron or chip breaker will always sit dead flat on the blade at the cutting edge where the pressure is required. You noticed and mentioned the larger bearing area the Clifton gave at this position over the LN. This is because the Clifton was designed with the sole intention of being the most sturdy hand plane with the least amount of chatter. I remember talking with Alan Reid the previous MD and founder of Clifton planes he told me he never wanted it to be the pretty boy of planes! 

When they started to develop the Clifton planes they studied all aspects of different makes and different vintages of bench planes in the Hawley collection in Sheffield. This involved measuring casting thicknesses, mouth openings, frog fixings and handles shapes.

They were determined to manufacture a workmanlike plane in the best English tradition including the cutting iron. 

They wanted a plane that was solid, well balanced and re-assuringly rigid in its clamping of the cutting iron. The two piece cap iron may confer some benefit to some users when re-honing but its main benefit is in applying firm pressure at the exact points where it is needed; namely as close to the cutting edge of the iron as possible and for as long a length of the upper section of the cutting iron as possible. This allied to the thickness of the Clifton iron and the damping effect of the fixed flat part of the cap iron gives the most rigid clamping of any plane on the market. It was this that won it acclaim in Fine woodworking a few years ago.

My personal feeling is that the hand polished and buffed detailing on the Clifton does make it a pretty boy! possibly over the more machine finished but possibly crisper versions from North America. 

The backlash you have found within the Clifton is disappointing but I hope this was down to the temporary Yoke that has now been replaced with the new cast brass version. 

This video shows how the perceived benefits of the two piece cap iron have changed of the evolution of the hand plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGTUHoPEobM 


Cheers Peter


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## ali27 (1 Mar 2015)

Great information. Peter do Clifton also make thicker blades
than the usual 3.2-3.5mm? I need one that's about 4mm thick.
The hand forged cryo blade seems very interesting.


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## Vann (2 Mar 2015)

Thanks for the excellent review Mark.


mtr1":3a4u0lef said:


> The iron was the bit I was looking forward to trying out the most, as I said above I've had variable results from another well know American manufacturer. I wanted to try this iron side by side with the T10 irons I've been using for a few years now with great results.
> 
> My impressions are that this iron may have the edge on the T10...


I'm surprised and pleased to hear that. After the great things I've read above the T10 I thought it might out-perform the Clifton. I wonder how much better the Clifton cryogenic iron is over the previous Clifton iron (of which I have 4).


mtr1":3a4u0lef said:


> ...the front knob screw protrudes too much for me, but that's an easy fix, but why is it like that?


I agree. If Flinn are looking to make inprovements, this would be a sensible one to put right.


mtr1":3a4u0lef said:


> ...I noticed a tiny bit of play with the stay set cap iron, I've never used one or seen one so I will let others say if this is normal?


I've read Clifton's arguement that this provides a three point contact, allowing perfect alignment along the leading edge - which makes sense. But I notice that my Record stay-set cap-irons sit flat in that groove. I can't help wondering if Clifton are just taking an easy out for poor pressings (the cap-irons are pressed from flat sheet before machining).


Peter Sefton":3a4u0lef said:


> My personal feeling is that the hand polished and buffed detailing on the Clifton does make it a pretty boy!


I agree. I think I like the aesthetics of the Lie-Nielsen planes better - but I'm very fond of my two *green* Cliffies (warts and all).

Cheers, Vann.


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## Peter Sefton (2 Mar 2015)

ali27":evo9crim said:


> Great information. Peter do Clifton also make thicker blades
> than the usual 3.2-3.5mm? I need one that's about 4mm thick.
> The hand forged cryo blade seems very interesting.




All the Clifton blades are around 3.2mm thick, the reasoning is that the two piece cap iron adds to the thickness.

Cheers Peter


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## mtr1 (2 Mar 2015)

Peter Sefton":199rk7lq said:


> Snippty snip
> 
> I remember talking with Alan Reid the previous MD and founder of Clifton planes he told me he never wanted it to be the pretty boy of planes!
> 
> ...



Alan Reid missed a trick IMHO by not finishing the plane a little better, the majority of premium plane users in the US are hobbyists and very loyal to the American market. They would need something better to shake their loyalty, is there a reason from the price point that Clifton can't step up and just change a few little niggles to make the plane perfect? They are after all virtually the same price, and a L/N plane is finished very well indeed.

From my point of view the Clifton is a lovely plane, but isn't quite there yet. One idea I had this morning was to buy the L/N No7, then marry this with a Clifton iron. The problem with this is L/N get the majority of my money, and I want to support a British company.

I am of course splitting hairs, the Clifton is a very good plane, but if the market demands a better product what then for Clifton? They have after all just been sold because they were failing, and IMHO because of that very British attitude of that will do! 

I will go back to why can't they just address the very small niggles? I understand of course that Flinn have just taken over and have relaunched the plane, but could they of done a bit more field research I wonder?

No malice intended to Clifton the plane is very good, and I hope it does very well.

I hope the brass yoke does solve this too, the one in the plane I have is quite poor, but again works fine.


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## ali27 (2 Mar 2015)

Well the LN and Clifton are both Bedrock planes. So the price should be somewhat the same. There is one big difference IMHO. The Clifton has a hand forged plane blade which adds to the price. The Clifton planes are also somewhat heavier I think. The fit and finish of the LN planes are better. 

I wish they made the plane irons also in thicker sizes as a replacement blade for other planes.

Ali


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## mtr1 (2 Mar 2015)

Yes, the iron is very good indeed. Just the lateral lever, the knob nut (sorry),the yoke, and the cap iron to go, and it's the best on the market. I wonder how much these trivial things would add to the cost really, £20-£30 on a plane? That would make it virtually the same cost as the L/N, I think people who are buying these planes me included wouldn't mind the cost if the plane really is the best. 

These niggles are not enough for me to not buy one, but why not just make them better than the competition? They are in function already, just not the little bits that make the job right. All my own opinion of course, they are a very fine plane.

Would be interested in Peters opinion, as it sounds like he has been talking with Flinn about these planes.


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## Paul Chapman (2 Mar 2015)

mtr1":171588ol said:


> Yes, the iron is very good indeed. Just the lateral lever, the knob nut (sorry),the yoke, and the cap iron to go, and it's the best on the market.



The brass nut on the front knob would be an easy fix. On the 10th Anniversary Cliftons, they fitted a slightly modified brass nut that was flatter and had a chamfered edge - not sure if it's clear from these pics of my Anniversary #4









All that would be necessary would be to get the height right during assembly.

The Y lever is now fixed with the introduction of the brass ones.

I don't agree about the cap iron - the Stay-set is by far the best cap iron available in my view.

All that leaves is the lateral lever.

Nearly there  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## mtr1 (2 Mar 2015)

I don't mean the function of the cap iron Paul, I didn't make myself clear. The cap iron came with a few burrs on, no biggy there just file them off, but the play in it means that when I place it back in, its not quite parallel with the front of the iron and can pivot half a mil. Again I haven't much experience with the two piece cap iron, but it doesn't feel right to me. Are yours the same?


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## richarddownunder (4 Mar 2015)

My new Clifton 51/2 has just arrived this morning from Peter :ho2 Inititial impressions are excellent fit and finish and, true to advertising, it works out of the box...couldn't help myself and had to make a few shavings in my pyjamas before heading off to work (not in pyjamas). I'll have a closer look tonight but it looks to be a better finished tool than my old Clifton #4 which I have been very happy with over the past decade. I particularly like the new (?) frog shape.

The graphite looks a lot better than I was expecting and the BRG looks a bit old fashioned IMHO in comparison (I'm surprised to say).

Also got a Pax 1776 Dovetail saw. Feels great in the hand and looks a treat too, so I can see some serious workshop time coming up!

Cheers
Richard


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## iNewbie (4 Mar 2015)

richarddownunder":1fd9dx9i said:


> My new Clifton 51/2 has just arrived this morning from Peter :ho2 Inititial impressions are excellent fit and finish and, true to advertising, it works out of the box...couldn't help myself and had to make a few shavings in my pyjamas before heading off to work (not in pyjamas).



I hope that wasn't hair shavings, Richard down under. :lol:


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## Peter Sefton (4 Mar 2015)

richarddownunder":1b3co56s said:


> My new Clifton 51/2 has just arrived this morning from Peter :ho2 Inititial impressions are excellent fit and finish and, true to advertising, it works out of the box...couldn't help myself and had to make a few shavings in my pyjamas before heading off to work (not in pyjamas). I'll have a closer look tonight but it looks to be a better finished tool than my old Clifton #4 which I have been very happy with over the past decade. I particularly like the new (?) frog shape.
> 
> The graphite looks a lot better than I was expecting and the BRG looks a bit old fashioned IMHO in comparison (I'm surprised to say).
> 
> ...



Good to hear it reached you so quickly, have fun playing tonight!

Cheers Peter


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## richarddownunder (4 Mar 2015)

iNewbie":3nkzy4b9 said:


> richarddownunder":3nkzy4b9 said:
> 
> 
> > My new Clifton 51/2 has just arrived this morning from Peter :ho2 Inititial impressions are excellent fit and finish and, true to advertising, it works out of the box...couldn't help myself and had to make a few shavings in my pyjamas before heading off to work (not in pyjamas).
> ...



That's how real blokes shave (if you haven't got a sharpened axe handy, that is).


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## Peter Sefton (4 Mar 2015)

richarddownunder":3fa5ub4w said:


> iNewbie":3fa5ub4w said:
> 
> 
> > richarddownunder":3fa5ub4w said:
> ...



Spoken like a true Kiwi


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## paulm (4 Mar 2015)

How would you be sharpening your axe for that ? :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


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## Vann (5 Mar 2015)

richarddownunder":19o0ltaj said:


> The SS Record plane I have (pictured) that was rescued from certain death is one of my favorites (no, the table isn't very flat is it!).


Is that an old photo Richard? IIRC you did that plane up 5 or 6 years ago. If that's a recent photo, you must have just taken it out of it's glass case :mrgreen: 



richarddownunder":19o0ltaj said:


> My new Clifton 51/2 has just arrived this morning from Peter Inititial impressions are excellent fit and finish and, true to advertising, it works out of the box...!


Shame it's not part of Peter's passaround :wink: I'd love to have a look at that (and a play). One day I'll pass through Palmie with enough spare time to call in and say _gidday_ (if I'm allowed, of course).

Cheers, Envious Vann.


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## richarddownunder (5 Mar 2015)

Vann":3tsu25tk said:


> richarddownunder":3tsu25tk said:
> 
> 
> > The SS Record plane I have (pictured) that was rescued from certain death is one of my favorites (no, the table isn't very flat is it!).
> ...



Hi Vann

yes its the same plane, an old picture (you have a good memory...and sorry to dredge up old pics) but it looks pretty much the same as it did then. It gets used as well, then put away, oiled lovingly. More than happy to say gidday, I'll put a beer in the fridge in preparation.


I'm really thrilled with the 5 1/2 now I have had an hour or so to play with it (even though I have already managed to put a tiny ding in the side :twisted: ) I'm so impressed I think I'll write a thread of its very own and post a whole bunch of photos.

Cheers
Richard


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## goldspanner (31 Mar 2015)

wonder how sharp cryo O1 can get........


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