# New computer spec?



## stuartpaul (1 May 2021)

Old laptop is dying so it’s time for a new pc. This time we’re going for an all in one desktop and as usual I find sorting out the specification ridiculously difficult as I’m happy to admit I know very little about them.

With a max budget of £600 this one appears to be quite good and for our needs (basic home use with some photo editing) would seem to fit the bill.






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I hate the process because if I get it wrong we have to live with it for quite a few years. Any help or general thoughts appreciated.


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## Terry - Somerset (1 May 2021)

My brother in law used to work for IBM and he recommended Lenovo when I asked him much the same question.

His view, which seemed plausible to me, was that for most people almost any computer would have adequate processing power unless you have very specific needs - high end games, lots of video editing etc.

Both the fairly low end laptop and desktop have worked flawlessly for the last three+ years.


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## EddyCurrent (1 May 2021)

The right way to choose a computer is to first identify the software you want to run on it. The stated hardware requirements of that software will provide a minimum starting point.


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## Spectric (1 May 2021)

Run a mile, that Lenovo is not brilliant and only has 8 Gig of Ram. I always build my own systems so I know what is inside the case, the same reason I will not eat shop brought pies. I know it saves space having a compact system but with a std Pc if something needs replacing it is straightforward and the same for upgrades. I like the fact it has an AMD processor that is a bonus and the SSD but look at a base unit and screen system and you will get more for the money. 16 Gig of Ram is cheap these days and makes a huge difference to performance especially with multi tasking. If you have a local Pc specialist talk to them as they will provide a more custom solution rather than Pc world, or look at Overclockers / Scan computers online .


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## Spectric (1 May 2021)

Forgot to mention that at the moment a lot of Pc items and parts seem to be in short supply and higher cost, I am looking to get some components and they are really expensive but have been told they will fall when demand is met.


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## clogs (1 May 2021)

we used normal PC's n laptops but kept getting bugs......tried Norton anti-virus.....what a waste of money that was.......
in the end a good freind who uses prof Apple gear (he makes and produces short films) talked me into an Apple 27" all in one jobby......over 10 years ago.......
gotta say never looked back.......the money we saved on getting the Windows computor cleaned n fixed paid the difference for the new gear......
now we are all Apple.....
2x 27"inchers, 2 laptops, mini mac, 3 x I-phones........not for everyone but suits us......
BUT when something better and cheaper comes along (thats as easy to use) as the Apple products, we'll jump ship.....
but that's never gonna be WINDOWS and if it were I wouldn't change back on principle......

as for every one saying they upgrade to new systems and the old ones wont work is all HYPE.....
*they all do it.*....Windows 10 wont work most of the old systems at all.....
u have to buy new or special feature to use ur old programs....and all I hear on one or two other forums that it's always causing probs.....
Sorry Stuart £600 wont get u into Apple even if u wanted....... good luck....


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## DrPhill (1 May 2021)

I am not sure that Apple represents the best value-for-money, but 600gbp gets you onto the bottom, rung: iMac | Refurbished iMac | Hoxton Macs - second hand, sure, but I got mine second hand 3 years ago and it is still a fine machine......


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## paulrbarnard (1 May 2021)

As well as the RAM being today’s minimum of 8G the disk is also a little on the small side. It’s nice it’s SSD but a larger disk, even if it’s a rotating disk, might be a better option. There are hybrid disks now that are a reasonable compromise on speed and size.


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## Jameshow (1 May 2021)

I would go for a desktop over a computer in the back if the screen jobbie as the components are better ventilated and easy to replace if they die. 

Cheers James


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## D_W (1 May 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> My brother in law used to work for IBM and he recommended Lenovo when I asked him much the same question.
> 
> His view, which seemed plausible to me, was that for most people almost any computer would have adequate processing power unless you have very specific needs - high end games, lots of video editing etc.
> 
> Both the fairly low end laptop and desktop have worked flawlessly for the last three+ years.



Apple or lenovo and from time to time, Dell (i guess dell comes and goes in terms of what their attitude is) from a relative who takes care of IT for a large school district. 

His view is that the more common stuff here in the states like acer and HP is generally junk that comes back to him to fix too often. 

Coincidentally, we've had good luck with the HP stuff, but it does feel cheap and while it may last 6 or 7 years before it poops, I always end up with tape on the case holding things together, etc. We didn't have very good luck with a lenovo laptop, but that's just a matter of anecdotes that don't fit larger experience. Lenovo cost a lot more to get the same spec, though, and the refurb market isn't as strong as the consumer stuff in the US.


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## D_W (1 May 2021)

Jameshow said:


> I would go for a desktop over a computer in the back if the screen jobbie as the components are better ventilated and easy to replace if they die.
> 
> Cheers James



Ditto that. With a budgeting habit of $600 each 6 years, going up $100 each time, SSD and large magnetic fit spec last time, with 16g ram. Current PC has gone three and doesn't strike as having a good chance of getting to 6, but it's endured more work at home and kids moving (dropping) it. refurb market in the US is strong, though (600 or 700 refurb is probably comparable to 1000 new, and refurb artists usually include more OEM licensed software - that seems a bit suspicious, too, but hasn't failed to register, etc).


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## Stevejmon (1 May 2021)

Call Scan computers and discuss what you want, and more importantly, what you want it for. It's easy to get lulled into thinking that a powerful and expensive graphics card and powerful multi-cored CPU is crucial and the price tag that comes with them, when in fact you are unlikely to need them. They are for film editing professionals, automotive design simulation users and for gaming nerds. Highly unlikely that you will need one.

A low powered computer just takes a little longer to do its work. And I doubt that would be a problem to you. You do live in Somerset after all!

Don't take this the wrong way but you suggest you know little about computers, therefore it is unlikely you need a specialist, high-powered system; just something that will run the basic, run-of-the-mill programs you will use.

And steer clear of Apple.


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## Sideways (1 May 2021)

Everyone I know is fed up to the back teeth of computers, IT and operating systems. Microsoft, Apple, Google, all of them force constant software updates that grind your hardware to a halt long before it breaks.
If you possibly can, choose open source OS and programmes and opt out of the constant updates and IT tax burden that it imposes on you.
If you can get off the treadmill you'll save a fortune.
I haven't allowed my PC or phone update in 3+ years. Since I don't let MS, Google (or Apple) break them, they still run the way they are supposed to !
After a lifetime of Apple at home and MS at work, I have just a lenovo tiny desktop pc now. Solid and solid state, it saves me space and is never turned off. Overpriced sure, but the reliability and convenience has a value.


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## Jameshow (1 May 2021)

Dell have been good for us.

CCL have been good for my sons pc's who are gamers.

Cheers James


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## thetyreman (1 May 2021)

I'd stay clear of scan, terrible company, wait until something goes wrong or they don't have anything in stock, I am speaking from personal experience here.


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## D_W (1 May 2021)

Sideways said:


> Everyone I know is fed up to the back teeth of computers, IT and operating systems. Microsoft, Apple, Google, all of them force constant software updates that grind your hardware to a halt long before it breaks.
> If you possibly can, choose open source OS and programmes and opt out of the constant updates and IT tax burden that it imposes on you.
> If you can get off the treadmill you'll save a fortune.
> I haven't allowed my PC or phone update in 3+ years. Since I don't let MS, Google (or Apple) break them, they still run the way they are supposed to !
> After a lifetime of Apple at home and MS at work, I have just a lenovo tiny desktop pc now. Solid and solid state, it saves me space and is never turned off. Overpriced sure, but the reliability and convenience has a value.



other than enormous security issues, I have a feeling that a large percentage of the "updates" have more to do with finding ways to collect your data or summarize it in a way that's more valuable to the software updater (that is, urgent updated are probably often urgent because they generate more revenue in data value once you apply them).


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## powertools (1 May 2021)

I would suggest that as an average home computer user you do some research on Chromebooks.
We no longer have a pc of any type having now gone over to a Chromebook and I don't think we miss anything we had but are pleased with the lack of issues we now have.


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## Ollie78 (1 May 2021)

I just bought a mini pc to run my cnc machine it was £400 and is about the size of a couple of beer cans.
It is a Ryzen 3400g so a full 65w chip not a laptop chip, 16gb ram and a 500gb nvme ssd. The beauty of this type of chip (APU) is that it has built in graphics but better than the standard intel built in graphics.
This little machine surprised me with its performance, it runs everything very well including fusion 360 and games and stuff.

At the moment there is a graphics card shortage and ludicrous pricing, partly due to crypto miners, partly covid and silicon shortage. So not the best time to buy a pc. 
Personally I would not buy that lenovo or any all in one, you can get a monitor pretty cheap and a mini pc like I got which can be mounted to the back of the monitor. This way you get more options on spec, you can upgrade the monitor or system seperately if required and add ram and storage as you please. For under £600 you should be able to find a system to kick the hell out of that lenovo aio.

Ollie


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## RobinBHM (1 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> With a max budget of £600



I sometimes buy acers which are ok.

Here is a box only:
Intel i5
1 tb SSD
8gb ram 


*Refurbished Acer XC-885 Core i5-9400 8GB 16GB Intel Optane 1TB Windows 10 Desktop*









Refurbished Acer XC-885 Core i5-9400 8GB 16GB Intel Optane 1TB Windows 10 Desktop - Laptops Direct


Buy Refurbished Acer XC-885 Core i5-9400 8GB 16GB Intel Optane 1TB Windows 10 Desktop from LaptopsDirect




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Price £489


Add on a monitor £98






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Then just repurpose or buy a cheap mouse and keyboard.


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## Spectric (1 May 2021)

Sideways said:


> Everyone I know is fed up to the back teeth of computers, IT and operating systems. Microsoft, Apple, Google, all of them force constant software updates that grind your hardware to a halt long before it breaks.


Many years ago in the days of the 286, 386, 486 and then Pentium using NT4 OS we often thought that there was some timing mechanism built in that over time slowed things down to make you upgrade and keep the industry moving, these were when a single 4 Meg ram stick would cost £120 so upgrading was never cheap. I think now for the average Joe that there is currently not a huge incentive in upgrading or buying high spec PC's which seem to be aimed at either gamers or high end CAD systems where spending several thousand on a graphics card is the norm as even basic machines can run your office programs and handle day to day task. Must say never had an issue with Scan in the last 15 years and brought 75% of all items from them.


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## Valhalla (1 May 2021)

Check out www.scan.co.uk - they've been around for a long time (at least 20yrs) - they do 'today' only deals and there is a wealth of information on the site:
https://www.scan.co.uk/todayonly -


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## niemeyjt (2 May 2021)

My 8 yo Dell Laptop goes on and on. The Lenovo I bought to replace it is broken in my cupboard. 

But now I too have reverted to desktops for most things. And multiple monitors as well, as eyesight deteriorates a 24" or 27" monitor is great. And one that rotates means documents can be viewed in portrait as well. My graphics card was bought off a miner who gave up after Mount Gox and is still more than enough for what I do (but would be too slow for serious gamers).
-
I bought many bits from Scan for my son's gaming PC. Also look at PCPartsPicker - https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/ - to play around with configurations before buying.


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## Robbo60 (2 May 2021)

If you only have the one "computer" why would you go for a desktop? Why not a laptop/tablet (with a separate monitor if needed) I have used a laptop for work, not office based, and found Lenovo and HP to be robust bits of kit. I am typing this on a Medion laptop from Aldi £279.99. Medion are part of Lenovo.
Does everything I want but memory small


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## Reginald (2 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> Old laptop is dying so it’s time for a new pc. This time we’re going for an all in one desktop and as usual I find sorting out the specification ridiculously difficult as I’m happy to admit I know very little about them.
> 
> With a max budget of £600 this one appears to be quite good and for our needs (basic home use with some photo editing) would seem to fit the bill.
> 
> ...


I would recommend that you check out novatech in Portsmouth before you part with your hard earned, I have had PCs from them them the last one ran for 11 years without issues,and my wife had their laptops for her university work again no issues they are helpful and their guarantees are not made of plastic.


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## pe2dave (2 May 2021)

Spectric said:


> Run a mile, that Lenovo is not brilliant and only has 8 Gig of Ram. I always build my own systems so I know what is inside the case, the same reason I will not eat shop brought pies. I know it saves space having a compact system but with a std Pc if something needs replacing it is straightforward and the same for upgrades. I like the fact it has an AMD processor that is a bonus and the SSD but look at a base unit and screen system and you will get more for the money. 16 Gig of Ram is cheap these days and makes a huge difference to performance especially with multi tasking. If you have a local Pc specialist talk to them as they will provide a more custom solution rather than Pc world, or look at Overclockers / Scan computers online .


Contra argument, my wife bought a Sony all in one eight years ago. Neary a problem in that time.
Unless you're in a hurry for photo editing, 8Gb memory should be fine.


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## niemeyjt (2 May 2021)

Robbo60 said:


> If you only have the one "computer" why would you go for a desktop?


A few reasons: Performance, Memory, Graphics, Storage, Expansion


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## Jonm (2 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> Old laptop is dying so it’s time for a new pc. This time we’re going for an all in one desktop and as usual I find sorting out the specification ridiculously difficult as I’m happy to admit I know very little about them.
> 
> With a max budget of £600 this one appears to be quite good and for our needs (basic home use with some photo editing) would seem to fit the bill.
> 
> ...


It would help if you said what computer you have at the moment, processor model, ram and disc size. Also what programs you wish to run. It is best to assume that your existing programs will not work on your new machine and will require upgrading unless you know otherwise. Also what is important to you, like large high quality screen, viewing large videos etc.

I am no expert on computers but others on here can probably give you good advice, if you give a bit more information. Probably the best advice is someone who can advise you of a shop which can give you proper advice, not try to sell you the most expensive thing they can persuade you to buy. Perhaps transfer all your files and get your new computer up and running. As others have mentioned, now is not a good time to buy, supply is below demand generally and I assume this applies to computers.


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## GuitardoctorW7 (2 May 2021)

I've been a Mac user at home for 20+ years now. I use PC's at work, so not going to get into the which is the better argument, I do find Macs less frustrating though, especially during software updates. You can of course run Windows on a Mac, I use Parallels, just for work based items.
Apple has always been the more expensive machine but they do go on for a long time, and yes I know some PC's do too. Apple have a little known caveat for UK sales in that they will honour hardware faults for up to 6 years as UK consumer laws expect goods to have a 'reasonable merchantable life'. My laptop's screen went bang last year (it was 4 years old) It was picked up, replaced and turned around in 3 days, free of charge as they have had a faulty batch.
I personally would scrape the money together and buy a MacBook Air. The minimum spec machine is £999 but the new M1 chips they use now seem very good by all accounts. They have integrated RAM which makes for more powerful processing and the minimum spec machine will be more than most people need.
I'll be upgrading my MacBook Pro this year, not that I need to just for tax efficiencies. This will still be a very good machine 5 years from now.


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## J-G (2 May 2021)

Just my two penn'orth --- I've been in the business of building PCs since 1989 and have some customers with me most of that time - one is now 93 and on her 4th PC, only upgraded due to new requirements.

The only Laptops I recommend are Toshiba, I wouldn't consider Lenovo, HP, Dell .... or any 'main stream' supplier and certainly not Apple on the 'Value for money' front (unless you are in the graphic arts field).

If you were in my neck of the woods I'd put together a custom built unit but as you're not - and I concur with most of what has been said - I suggest that you e-mail Graeme on [email protected] and explain what you want. Although he is ostensibly a Games PC retailer his prices on components are nearly always better than I can get buying one-offs at a wholesale distributor.

Your budget is tight in this specific day-and-age but he might have something suitable.

Building your own is not at all onerous if you can wield a Pozi Nº1 screwdriver and match electrical plugs to the same shape sockets.

I would recommend either Gigabyte or ACER main-board, though with your budget you may have to consider MSI, AMD is the way to go for the CPU. Fit either a 2½" or M2 SSD but I would suggest 60 or 128Gb to be used only as Drive 'C' for Windows 10 to sit on and add a 'normal' Hard Drive from Western Digital as your main storage. This could be anything from 512Gb upward. 16Gb of RAM today is considered small but is ample for the usual office and e-mail needs.

Having been used to a laptop you may take a Web-Cam to be a 'given' so if you have become used to using Zoom/Teams or whatever you may need to add a camera and speakers.

I'll keep this thread open in case you need any other 'pointers' but I'd be happy to respond to a PM.


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## jcassidy (2 May 2021)

All in one PC represent poor value for money, even before you get to a miserly 8GB RAM.

Curry's also represent poor value for money. The fact that they sell insurance FOR WHEN it breaks disturbs me. 

However if that's what you want (no cable mess, etc etc) then you need to factor in cost of wireless keyboard, mouse, and rechargeable batteries. No point having an all-in-one and then having a mess of wired accessories. 

You must also factor in the cost of a small external SSD drive for backup of your photos. Or else save them on Google (15GB at no additional cost)


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## Limey Lurker (2 May 2021)

clogs said:


> we used normal PC's n laptops but kept getting bugs......tried Norton anti-virus.....what a waste of money that was.......
> in the end a good freind who uses prof Apple gear (he makes and produces short films) talked me into an Apple 27" all in one jobby......over 10 years ago.......
> gotta say never looked back.......the money we saved on getting the Windows computor cleaned n fixed paid the difference for the new gear......
> now we are all Apple.....
> ...



I, and the rest of my family, agree entirely with these comments; except the last! My offspring have bought new, but I bought second-hand and have had no regrets at all. I paid slightly more than your £600, but £600 will get you a good second-hand iMac in pristine condition when the University year ends, and ex-students need money.


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## McAldo (2 May 2021)

Amazon refurbished at times offers good deals I think:



Amazon.co.uk







Fierce RGB Gaming PC Bundle - AMD Ryzen 3 3200G 4GHz, AMD Vega 8 Graphics, 16GB 3200MHz, 1TB Hard Drive, Windows 10 Installed, Keyboard and Mouse, 24-Inch Monitor, Gaming Headset (Apex 1141832) : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories


Buy



www.amazon.co.uk









Optiplex Dell Intel i7-2600 Quad Core 16GB RAM 240GB SSD + 1TB HDD WiFi Windows 10 Desktop PC Computer (Renewed) : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories


Buy



www.amazon.co.uk





They come with one year warranty, which you could extend to 3 years inclusive of accidental damage for £20 extra.
Buying a decent monitor, keyboard mouse and speakers, for the £230 model, would bring the total expense to £500 or so.

The Curry model you link has the advantages that:
- it does not take much space (but admittedly if you put a normal computer cabinet under the table, there is no difference)
- It comes with mouse and keyboard and has integrated speakers
- It will be quite silent when running.
- The processor is an i7, so reasonably fast

It has the disadvantages that:
- It cannot be upgraded
- RAM memory is low, at 8GB. Windows 10 eats up a lot of memory just to run.
- The hard disk is not very large and you cannot add another internal one. You could however get a few TB external hard disk with USB3.0, for £120 or less. That would get you plenty of space for storage of data but slow access
- The video card is not very good.
- The quality of the integrated monitor and speakers might not be great.

It is very hard to give you any useful advice not knowing what you need to do with your computer.


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## stuartpaul (2 May 2021)

Thank you all for your comments and some very helpful pointers. To be honest I’d expected more of a ‘that’ll do’. It’s amazing how opinions can be so different on the same make.

In terms of what we use it for the truth is not a lot! Managing my music library and photo collection are the biggest jobs then mostly a bit of shopping and general browsing. I prefer the laptop to the ipad for YouTube but don’t use it for films or gaming. We have limited space so a standard desktop won’t fit (and isn’t allowed!) hence the all in one. Already have a 1Tb hard drive for back up and separate storage.

Had a bit of a wander through some of the build your own sites and frankly found it confusing with some of the options when you’re only looking for something ‘bog standard’ and down to a budget.

Have to say the refurbed apples do look interesting and they got an ‘oh, they look nice’ award!

Thanks again and I’ll be doing some more thinking and possibly some budget massaging.


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## niemeyjt (2 May 2021)

Another refurb link for you to look at - even if only to compare with others: Refurbished Laptops, Desktops & Workstations: Dell Outlet | Dell


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## RobinBHM (2 May 2021)

when's the best time to buy a computer that's up to the latest spec?

A = 6 months after you've just bought one


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## Spectric (2 May 2021)

Having built my own Pc systems ever since the 286 hit the market and DOS was the OS I always found pre built systems lacked something, often a way for companies to shift end of life components. I use a server tower for my main Pc because it has plenty of space, it is almost 600mm deep and stands 600mm tall and is over fourteen years old but as it is designed for server use it is great for easy access and has a swing out HDD rack that can hold twelve drives, great back in the day when I ran a RAID array and disk capacity was only just into gigabytes at a great cost and SCSI drives were your only option for fast data transfer. 

The biggest hazzard to electronics and Pc's is heat, so a big airy case with good airflow can help keep things cool which extends component life especially the onboard PSU components, so I would only buy a laptop if I needed the portability and not for at home use and self contained systems also tend to cram everything into a smaller space. As I said if you are not a gamer or using it for high end CAD then a good basic Pc will deliver, you could look at 



https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/desktops-home-office/scan-home-pcs



The biggest issues I have these days is that it seems to have become fashionable to have Disco lighting built into the Pc so it lights up like the blackpool illuminations, and in my opinion just as chavy as Blackpool itself.


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## Spectric (2 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> when's the best time to buy a computer that's up to the latest spec?


I think the rate of progress has slowed but it was always said that something brought on a Monday would be old hat by the following Monday but if it worked Ok when you brought it who cares. Modern computers should be much faster and productive than they are, but with cheap memory has come a lot of sloppy and bloated software with to many gimics.


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## J-G (2 May 2021)

With that extra detail you have moved the whole debate 

There are a few activities that demand a great deal from a PC - the most notable probably Video editing, but they include - Music & Photography ..... both of which you site.

If by_ "Managing my music library"_ you mean keeping a database of titles/artists etc. then that's not a problem but if you mean storing MP3/WAV files then you do need serious data-storage. Similarly with photographs - unless you are storing only low resolution .JPG thumbnails - you need lots of disk space.

Your statement _"a standard desktop won’t fit (and isn’t allowed!) "_ causes concern when linked to your budget. I would normally suggest looking at the BRIX system which is a very small footprint (100mm x 100mm x 40mm ish) box that can fit on the back of a monitor but can also sit on the desk but your budget would need a serious uplift.

Besides the BRIX system there are also small deck-top cases available rather than the full tower 600 x 600 x 190 offerings. I've recently supplied a few using the Mini-ITX case which is 240 x 323 x 135. Naturally there can be issues regarding heat dissipation and it can be challenging to get the components in but I've not had any real problems. The problem is always that miniaturization (even on a limited scale) is always more expensive.


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## Terry - Somerset (2 May 2021)

There seems to be a range of attitudes towards IT from:

build it with the parts best suited to the planned use and upgrade individual components as required or when they fail, to
I want a box to send emails, simple documents and spreadsheets, surf the web, occassionally manipulate photos and video. 
The former requires a detailed understanding of technology and functionality. For the latter it is just a functional piece of kit which performs with the minimum of effort.

I suspect the best advice to the original poster should be based on:

*I find sorting out the specification ridiculously difficult as I’m happy to admit I know very little about them............** for our needs basic home use with some photo editing*


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## niemeyjt (2 May 2021)

@ Spectric My son loves RGB - on his gamer PC - even the memory is RGB. I hate it!

You make another good point about desktops - heat dissipation - I only have 3 egress cooling fans and a souped-up CPU fan on my system but as I type the CPU is 38 degrees and the GPU 41 degrees. The case will accept another three ingress fans if ever required.


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## Spectric (2 May 2021)

If you keep the air temperature within the case low then the CPU and GPU cooling fans will be able to work more efficiently with the cooler air. It was essential when running a large RAID array because that used to get fairly warm and you also had the SCSI controller card and several RS232/485 data port cards.


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## niemeyjt (2 May 2021)

Exactly - and work out airflow directions so all fans are working together and not against each other - remembering hot air rises.


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## mikej460 (2 May 2021)

Your decision needs to be based on answers to questions on what you use it for and may use it for in the future. 

*Disk Size:* Unless you use it for storing loads of large photo files and the like you probably don't need to worry about disk size. I find 250Gb more than enough to store my phone photos, office files etc. but I would wholeheartedly recommend a solid state disk (SSD) as they are far more reliable, silent and fast to boot up. 

*Screen and Graphics: *Again this depends on what you like/need I have no need for high end graphics as I don't play games or use design software but I do like a quality screen.

*Memory: *Go for at least 16Gb to future proof the new computer

*Network:* Make sure it is 5Ghz dual band again to future proof it. The ability to run at 2.5 or 5 is dictated by your broadband router so a dual band will sort this.

*CPU:* This could nobble a computer so avoid low end CPU specs, likewise you probably don't need something that could give the Met Office forecasting system a run for its money. The better spec PC's will have more powerful CPUs. I tend to avoid AMD CPUs and plumb for Intel but that's just my view.

Everything else such as keyboard, screen size is very much down to personal choice so test it out if you can and carefully read several independent reviews for usage results. My wife has just moved from a 17" HP laptop to a 14" Acer Swift 3 with Intel Core i5 CPU, 1080 HD screen and 512Gb SSD and loves it - bough for just under £600. It is a very fast laptop with a superb screen.

Hope this helps but shout if something doesn't make sense


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## Jonm (2 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> Thank you all for your comments and some very helpful pointers. To be honest I’d expected more of a ‘that’ll do’. It’s amazing how opinions can be so different on the same make.
> 
> In terms of what we use it for the truth is not a lot! Managing my music library and photo collection are the biggest jobs then mostly a bit of shopping and general browsing. I prefer the laptop to the ipad for YouTube but don’t use it for films or gaming. We have limited space so a standard desktop won’t fit (and isn’t allowed!) hence the all in one. Already have a 1Tb hard drive for back up and separate storage.
> 
> ...


You may have got some more targeted advice if you had put that at the beginning. From what you have said virtually anything new will be ok as long as the hard drive is big enough.

As for Macs I have a 12 year old “all in one” Mac and that would do what you are after. My 2012 Mac book with 8gb ram would do it easily except possibly for disc space. I would say that a refurbished Mac all in one, say 5 or six years old would be fine.

I have no experience of “all in one” windows machines but I do like windows machines and have an old Windows XP Desktop which I use occassionally.

Sounds like you just want something which works and do not want to get in to the technicalities, and you have an iPad. That does push you towards a Mac. You will find that using iCloud your photos, emails etc will all sync together, I pay £2.50 a month for iCloud.

With regard to the Lenova, the keypad and mouse are wired. For something on display which has to look good, wireless is better.

Please let us know what you end up with, it finishes the thread off.


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## RobinBHM (2 May 2021)

SSD hard drive is a must.

Boot up times on windows 10 is around 10 seconds


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## paulrbarnard (2 May 2021)

mikej460 said:


> Your decision needs to be based on answers to questions on what you use it for and may use it for in the future.
> 
> *Disk Size:* Unless you use it for storing loads of large photo files and the like you probably don't need to worry about disk size. I find 250Gb more than enough to store my phone photos, office files etc. but I would wholeheartedly recommend a solid state disk (SSD) as they are far more reliable, silent and fast to boot up.
> 
> ...


Just to contrast this I have 3TB of images , not including video, so the statement of 250GB is more than enough is a very personal observation. Also one of the most important components for photo editing is the display. Mine are all colour calibrated too. 

Network speed in a domestic environment is not critical. It is your broadband connection that is the bottle neck not the network in your house unless you are transferring lots of file around between systems at home. 

As soon as people talk about specific requirements it very rapidly becomes a pointless game. CPU types and GPU are very dependent of maximising performance for specific tasks. For example I run dual NVidea GPU to support the AI programming we do at work.

The key thing is remember RAM and disk usage always increases exponentially over time. Get the biggest of both you can afford.


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## J-G (2 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> SSD hard drive is a must.
> 
> Boot up times on windows 10 is around 10 seconds


The boot-up time is dependent upon much more than just doing so from an SSD and can be seriously affected when M$ demand that they 'phone home' and upgrade the O/S which can take many minutes. The best I've achieved for a bare Win 10 Pro is 14 seconds.

SSD, or better still M.2 SSD, are very good and being solid state are quiet but they do still have some issues as far as potential data loss is concerned. I always fit an SSD (usually M.2) used as Drive C but also fit a 'normal' HDD for data storage, often with some external drive for backup.

If you have the luxury of multiple PC's on a home network the external drive is probably overkill. My own network has 6 PC's running XP, Win 7 & Win 10.


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## Billy_wizz (2 May 2021)

mikej460 said:


> Your decision needs to be based on answers to questions on what you use it for and may use it for in the future.
> 
> *Disk Size:* Unless you use it for storing loads of large photo files and the like you probably don't need to worry about disk size. I find 250Gb more than enough to store my phone photos, office files etc. but I would wholeheartedly recommend a solid state disk (SSD) as they are far more reliable, silent and fast to boot up.
> 
> ...


Avoiding AMD and picking Intel i current market would be a huge mistake in the current market


mikej460 said:


> Your decision needs to be based on answers to questions on what you use it for and may use it for in the future.
> 
> *Disk Size:* Unless you use it for storing loads of large photo files and the like you probably don't need to worry about disk size. I find 250Gb more than enough to store my phone photos, office files etc. but I would wholeheartedly recommend a solid state disk (SSD) as they are far more reliable, silent and fast to boot up.
> 
> ...


Picking Intel over AMD would generally be a huge mistake in the current market ! Also unless he's doing something that is hugely CPU intensive most modern CPUs would be more than enough


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## mikej460 (2 May 2021)

Billy_wizz said:


> Avoiding AMD and picking Intel i current market would be a huge mistake in the current market
> Picking Intel over AMD would generally be a huge mistake in the current market ! Also unless he's doing something that is hugely CPU intensive most modern CPUs would be more than enough


If this is the case the OP wouldn't have a choice but if he has then I recommend Intel.


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## RobinBHM (2 May 2021)

J-G said:


> The boot-up time is dependent upon much more than just doing so from an SSD and can be seriously affected when M$ demand that they 'phone home' and upgrade the O/S which can take many minutes. The best I've achieved for a bare Win 10 Pro is 14 seconds.
> 
> SSD, or better still M.2 SSD, are very good and being solid state are quiet but they do still have some issues as far as potential data loss is concerned. I always fit an SSD (usually M.2) used as Drive C but also fit a 'normal' HDD for data storage, often with some external drive for backup.
> 
> If you have the luxury of multiple PC's on a home network the external drive is probably overkill. My own network has 6 PC's running XP, Win 7 & Win 10.


yes indeed -my post was just a short comment without meat on the bone.

the big problem with windows is how it gets bloated with stuff constantly being added to start up, registry etc etc -most PCs after a few years can take a few minutes to start up.

for a new PC SSD does make a significant improvement on start up time -it can make an old PC come back to life, especially is done with a fresh install


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## mikej460 (2 May 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Just to contrast this I have 3TB of images , not including video, so the statement of 250GB is more than enough is a very personal observation. Also one of the most important components for photo editing is the display. Mine are all colour calibrated too.
> 
> Network speed in a domestic environment is not critical. It is your broadband connection that is the bottle neck not the network in your house unless you are transferring lots of file around between systems at home.
> 
> ...


We need to be careful of steering someone who may have very basic requirements down the path of a high end spec. Your needs and that of several others are very specific. My point is future proofing as much as possible within a budget, and that includes dual band WiFi.


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## Spectric (2 May 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> SSD hard drive is a must.
> 
> Boot up times on windows 10 is around 10 seconds


Yes an SSD for the boot drive really helps, I use a WD blue 500Gb for the OS and programs but use normal hard drive for everything else. It is important to also have some means to backup your work files, always keep master copies safe and not on the Pc, these days USB pen drives are one good option but store them in a safe place! The SSD drives are no longer in the high price category, a 250Gb WD blue is now just £35 and the 500Gb WD blue £50 but there are several interfaces which will affect the Data speed.


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## Cooper (2 May 2021)

Limey Lurker said:


> £600 will get you a good second-hand iMac in pristine condition when the University year ends, and ex-students need money.


We have a 2009 27" iMac which is still going strong but it will not permit anymore OS X updates past Yosemite which is frustrating when there is a current program that wants an update. I can't justify the outlay on a new Mac but a good secondhand one sounds attractive. Where should I look to find one in pristine condition?


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## J-G (2 May 2021)

Cooper said:


> We have a 2009 27" iMac which is still going strong but it will not permit anymore OS X updates past Yosemite which is frustrating when there is a current program that wants an update


Just one very good reason to avoid the Apple platform.


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## J-G (2 May 2021)

mikej460 said:


> If this is the case the OP wouldn't have a choice but if he has then I recommend Intel.


That might have been the correct stance a few years ago but with the advent of the Ryzen range it certainly isn't. - though I have been using and recommending AMD over Intel for 25+ years - purely on value for money terms.


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## powertools (2 May 2021)

Do any of you computer experts have an opinion on a Chromebook for home users or do you have no experience and are unable to comment?


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## paulrbarnard (2 May 2021)

J-G said:


> Just one very good reason to avoid the Apple platform.


Actually the opposite. Apple guarantee compatibility for at least three major OS releases. There is no guarantee of compatibility with windows or Linux updates.


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## Michael C. (2 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> Old laptop is dying so it’s time for a new pc. This time we’re going for an all in one desktop and as usual I find sorting out the specification ridiculously difficult as I’m happy to admit I know very little about them.
> 
> With a max budget of £600 this one appears to be quite good and for our needs (basic home use with some photo editing) would seem to fit the bill.
> 
> ...


Hello: read your thread (message) and decided to give you my side of the same story; I went ahead and purchased a DELL all-in-one with a 20" touch screen, has a R/W dvd player and a huge capacity hard drive, I requested the unit with Win 7Pro, 64bit rather than the usual Win10 installed, (my preferance) it also came with MS Office and a few other program I don't use, "I'm very private" I don't face, moon, give out instant grams of anything, basically an old-timer with a PC; i've taken the liberty of being presumptuous and also assumed you are (more or less) in my category; the all-in-one unit are great for some people; however, they need to be plugged up (electrical), the touch screen is OK but it's very sensitive and if your hand or fingers get too close to the screen, it reacts, since it needs to be plugged up, it also means you'll need to consider where you'll be using it, preferably a permanent location like a nice solid table where you can open up a notebook to take notes; I like my unit but it is NOT a laptop, which you can take with you; (I've never understood why people would take their laptop to beaches or camping); hope my 2 pence feedback can help.


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## Michael C. (2 May 2021)

powertools said:


> Do any of you computer experts have an opinion on a Chromebook for home users or do you have no experience and are unable to comment?


As a NON-EXPERT and while shopping I asked my self why are all the "CHROMEBOOKS and Chrome platform" units so much cheaper than comparable Windows platform PC's and notebooks.


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## Valhalla (3 May 2021)

Michael C. said:


> As a NON-EXPERT and while shopping I asked my self why are all the "CHROMEBOOKS and Chrome platform" units so much cheaper than comparable Windows platform PC's and notebooks.


It's all Google......what they want is data, data, data - where you go, what you look at, how much you spend, what you buy - etc, etc, etc - they are as bad as, if not worse than facebook, amazon et al


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## McAldo (3 May 2021)

powertools said:


> Do any of you computer experts have an opinion on a Chromebook for home users or do you have no experience and are unable to comment?



Google approach is to provide applications which you access online.
Aside of gmail, they have their own equivalent of microsoft office, their photo editing apps and so forth.
So for instance, if you resize an image on their photo editor, the actual resizing is done by the server, not by your computer.
So, they promote the Chromebooks, which are:

- Not very powerful, because part of the processing is anyway done online.
- Not very spacious, because they assume you will store your data online.
- Not very useful when you are offline with no internet connection
- Not very flexible as for the applications you can use. Chromebooks run their own operating system, which is Linux based and a cousin of Android systems. So you are not going to be able to install the same software you use on a windows pc.

For certain kind of uses, Chromebooks are just fine. You can watch youtube and streaming services, write emails, even edit images or spreadsheets. Countless other companies, aside of google, produce free and paid software which runs online, from a browser.
In certain respects, a Chromebook is a comparatively very large smart phone, with a big screen and a keyboard.

For these reasons, they are quite cheap to get.

There is also the aspect Valhalla mentioned though. Google harvest data about users, and chromebooks are designed so that everything you do on them will be recorded. It is a very involved thing to describe what the implications are, and why you personally might or might not care about that.
There are many good outcomes out of mass harvesting of data, better products design for instance, ads which are actually relevant to you, calendars which autofill with your important dates, lots less typing required.
There are also not so good outcome. An insurance company might not offer you their best prices, because they know that statistically you are likely to accept more expensive deals. Parties and other political entities seeking approval or votes can show you information automatically tailored for you, including only things you approve of, and avoiding mentioning things you might object to. And so forth..

But the above is a little beyond what a chromebook is.


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## gregmcateer (3 May 2021)

Is now a good time to ask the best method to sharpen a computer?


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## ovenpaa (3 May 2021)

Yes, install a flavour of Linux.


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## stuartpaul (3 May 2021)

gregmcateer said:


> Is now a good time to ask the best method to sharpen a computer?


Believe you me, I’m starting to wonder!


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## DrPhill (3 May 2021)

McAldo said:


> Google approach is to provide applications which you access online.
> [.........................]
> But the above is a little beyond what a chromebook is.



That is an excellent description. I had picked up most of that information on my travels, but to see it clearly laid out in one place makes it all clearer somehow.


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## stuartpaul (3 May 2021)

Well, things have changed a bit (just a tiny bit mind). It now appears we want an imac (there goes the new planer thicknesser!). This is partly Dr Phill’s fault for pointing me towards the refurbished apples which has lead to further research as well as the fact that apparently ‘they look nice’.

I remain grateful for all the advice offered but have no doubt that whatever we choose someone will criticise and ask why. Part of our thought process is in the longevity aspect. It’s not going to get a hard life and it would appear that many go on for years and whilst it’s an expensive purchase it should (anecdotally at least) last us at least twice the lifetime of a ‘bog standard’ set up in our house so the cost can be justified (mostly). We are also already an apple house (phones, ipads and pods) so it’s probably a next logical step for us.

Thanks again and awaiting incoming!!!


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## Billy_wizz (3 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> Well, things have changed a bit (just a tiny bit mind). It now appears we want an imac (there goes the new planer thicknesser!). This is partly Dr Phill’s fault for pointing me towards the refurbished apples which has lead to further research as well as the fact that apparently ‘they look nice’.
> 
> I remain grateful for all the advice offered but have no doubt that whatever we choose someone will criticise and ask why. Part of our thought process is in the longevity aspect. It’s not going to get a hard life and it would appear that many go on for years and whilst it’s an expensive purchase it should (anecdotally at least) last us at least twice the lifetime of a ‘bog standard’ set up in our house so the cost can be justified (mostly). We are also already an apple house (phones, ipads and pods) so it’s probably a next logical step for us.
> 
> Thanks again and awaiting incoming!!!


As for longevity it's unlikely to last any longer than any comparatively priced machine but have what you want and enjoy! also apple have a tendency to keep there operating systems similar over all there platforms(or at least used to)


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## Anthraquinone (3 May 2021)

Startpaul
The *critical* thing to know is what do you want to use your computer for. I cannot see that in the above discussion but if it has been answered and you have sorted that out then OK you should be good to go.

Personally I would not touch Apple with a barge pole but that is just my point of view and many disagree. Whatever have fun with what you buy.

AQ


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## DrPhill (3 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> This is partly Dr Phill’s fault for pointing me towards the refurbished apples which has lead to further research as well as the fact that apparently ‘they look nice’.



Sorry..... 

They do look nice (Apple are really a hardware manufacturer with an operating system). The Apple ecosystem is a bit of a walled garden but they play nice (and simply) within the garden. I love the all-in one lack of wires, and the 5k screen is so nice on the eyes for a whole day work. I prefer Linux for my 'laptop' , but my work-at-home or code-at-home system is the iMac. You can use the iMac to back up your iOS devices.

If you want windows apps then you can run inside macOS with parallels (for a price) or in bootcamp (choose at boot time) for the 'cost' of a windows licence (free if you want).

AFAIR memory is replaceable on the older iMacs, but check. I have a 27" and the memory is in a little compartment easily accessible on the back of the machine. Swapping the hard drive is possible but a pig looking at the videos. So (check these facts for your model and) go for a decent drive (ssd 500Gb) and plan to upgrade memory later if necessary.

Magic keyboard and mouse works well except when you have too may Bluetooth type things plugged in - I keep a wired set for emergencies.


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## TRITON (3 May 2021)

I normally avoid telling folk they should build their own, though it is a bit cheaper, you lose out on warranties, and theres always the worry that you build, close the case, hit start and naff al happens. WTF do you/they do then ? Too many things can go wrong, and you can even fry components, or damage them with static, because you didnt know this,that or t'other.

So a built system will always be better because its usually pretty much the same or slightly more of a price, and if it screws up, you have someone to phone to fix or replace.

8gb is fine for pretty much everything. 16gb is better obviously, but for most applications and even games(within reason) it runs them fine and dandy.
For general surfing the web, watching vids, listening to sounds the cheapest £200/300 is more than adequate.
If you want to add gaming its a bit more, but for 600 quid, that will give you a good system and run all the games at reasonable setting. Dont fall into the fanboy trap of frames per second and overclocking. Those guys whine and whine but in reality its not something that matters that much and they're playing off each other as to who can sound the best technical wizard, or some other computer god who knows all.sees all.

I game, but like to see those games as the developer intended, so settings maxed out, not for any gameplay requirements, but more the beauty the graphics can offer. The lighting, the sound, the textures. I've been playing computer games since computer games were invented, and owned and have built systems since when computers first became popular. Pentium 3 anyone ? and I'm utterly rubbish and still cant hit anything 
Because of my requirements I on my last system opted for an Alienware system. Cost £900 in 2012, and i can still run all the games in ultra(max graphic settings) or very high, or high enough that most if not all the games are shown at their best. Tweaking is the order of the game there. Knowing whats best switched on and whats best switched off or lowered.
I'm toying with a new system, again for gaming, even though im pants at it, because my reasoning is that a basic gaming system, which is a Ram hungry and intense series of requirements will run anything else with ease. A bit like having a giant 3 phase thicknesser for diy tasks. No matter what you run through it, be that curly grained exotic, or basic poplar, it can do it all.

So If i buy a new system, it will be another Alienware, the most basic of basics with an upgrade to ram and graphics and liquid cooling, as I only really like online multiplayers which are quite intense and hard on the ram and graphics. It should cost about 1300
As said, my old system I bought in 2012. Its ran perfectly and without any problems whatsoever in all that time. That is an X51, and though it cost 900 ,8 years ago, I reckon ill get £300/350 for it second hand, such is its reputation.


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## Droogs (3 May 2021)

The machine you showed at the start is a "that'll do" machine as you have extra external storage. Lenovo's laptops are made by what was IBM's PC division which they bought in 2004. I have just put a T61p (2007) and a W500 (2009) to bed for the final time after long lives of service, first at home and then in the workshop. The W500 was great for CAD software as it had Nvidia Quadro gfx. Some say the Lenovo quality has slipped over the years but SWMBO has a Lenovo G70 and is very happy with it. She does a bit of video editing for her website and storytelling stuff and for her publishing and writing work, along with internet, zoom and youtube. She uses office and also publishing industry stuff on it as well without any problems.

On the other hand you could go the custom build and get the components to make your own and make your own box in wood, it is what I do for a living with PCs and games consoles. In the main the driving factor should be what do I want to do with it now and possibly over the next few years and get one accordingly. By the by my first computer was a self build christmas present, came in a polybag with a Xerox A4 page of instructions with hand written notes by the company owner) and took until new years eve to build in 1979 and let me have 4 years of fun with a ZX80.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 May 2021)

DrPhill said:


> Magic keyboard and mouse works well except when you have too many Bluetooth type things plugged in - I keep a wired set for emergencies.



Just an aside - my Bluetooth keyboard plays up once in a while, and I've given up on Bluetooth for the soundbar, but I do like the wireless mouse. I thought it had given up the ghost, but fiddling with it I noticed a glimmer of red light. I wonder ........... I got my Dremel which had a tiny grindstone in it and just touched the terminals and the ends of the battery - not a single problem since. It was just poor connections.


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## Spectric (3 May 2021)

Anthraquinone said:


> Personally I would not touch Apple with a barge pole but that is just my point of view and many disagree. Whatever have fun with what you buy.
> 
> AQ


I would agree upto a point, I think they score highly with graphics and the photographic community using Lightroom and Photoshop, plus their monitors handle color calibration better but for general office use, Excel, Word and programing then the expense is harder to justify although with Windows 10, Microsoft is doing a good job of making people jump over to the Apple cart.


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## stuartpaul (3 May 2021)

Anthraquinone said:


> Personally I would not touch Apple with a barge pole but that is just my point of view and many disagree. Whatever have fun with what you buy.


Do you mind if I ask why? I’ve asked people before and the response was about apple’s business methods rather than their hardware.


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## Spectric (3 May 2021)

To make spending easier,

in 2003

a 36 Gig SCSI drive was £104 and a pair of DDR400 512 meg Ram sticks was £112

a 200 Gig Maxtor Hard drive was £47 

in 2008 

a Gigabyte motherboard GA-MA790FX-DS5 AM2+ was £90 and a 500W ENERMAX MODULAR PSU was £55

So you get a lot more for the money now, £80 gets 16 gig of DDR4 Ram!


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## Droogs (3 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> Do you mind if I ask why? I’ve asked people before and the response was about apple’s business methods rather than their hardware.


Apple hardware is deliberately designed to make it almost impossible for you the end user to adapt or repair. They place form over function and as such are poorly ventilated and cooled. This causes a deliberately ignored result - part failure. their entire business model for devices is to build them cheap, over engineered to encourage planned failure in-service. As for their actual administrative and commercial business that leave a lot to be desired. I say this as a qualified Apple repair specialist. They even fleece their agents by designing their own screw head design and then charging their own technicians 70 bucks for the correct screwdriver. They are sharks parading as Indian Glass fish


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## Michael C. (3 May 2021)

thanks for that, I hadn't even thought, that they do track you, follow your searches, your purchases and who know what else; although I graduated in computer sciences with strong background in C, Dbase (now SQL) and a few other languages, I left that world because of the erratic income highs and lows; it's amazing the change from signing in to the Internet versus having to sign in to your home page to access the internet. I am conscious of these strange methods by companies in acquiring DATA, I have actually visited a restaurant, used my phone from the premises and when I got home and accessed the internet, I was met by questions asking me How was "X" restaurant, I didn't purchased anything.


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## Padster (3 May 2021)

At the risk of this becoming a “sharpening or political‘ thread 
I will put my colours on the mast, I’m what some would call an Apple fan boy!
Now I’ll put some meat on the bones as well - I’ve worked in IT for over 30yrs, I started life as a hardware guy, mainframes, Novell netware, DOS, Windows, then moved to software and networks, now storage and business strategy, cloud etc.
i always used to build my own machines, but eventually got fed up of the bus mans holiday, and my wife bought me a MacBook Pro (MBP) - that was 10yrs ago and it finally gave up the ghost a month or two ago - in the interim I’ve had at least 4 work laptops, none as good as my MBP.
I have a new iMac not the M1 chip but a 21.5” i7 it’s a fantastic piece of kit and because I have phone, watch, iPad, tv they all link seamlessly I carry on surfing on doing documents on any device, I have a home NAS but also use family sharing and iCloud - the office equivalent apps have come on tremendously and are free and compatible....
Its horses for courses but I’ve never regretted the move, if you do move I hope it works for you too, already using part of the ecosystem should make it easier, also if you look on Apple site you can buy refurb from them too!

hth

Padster


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## niemeyjt (4 May 2021)

One point to add on used machines - they will have wear on moving things like fan bearings. Last summer I had to put a new cooling fan on my old Dell laptop after seven years. There will also be a build-up of dust that needs to be periodically removed - hopefully, a good used vendor will have done this for you.


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## paulrbarnard (4 May 2021)

Padster said:


> At the risk of this becoming a “sharpening or political‘ thread
> I will put my colours on the mast, I’m what some would call an Apple fan boy!
> Now I’ll put some meat on the bones as well - I’ve worked in IT for over 30yrs, I started life as a hardware guy, mainframes, Novell netware, DOS, Windows, then moved to software and networks, now storage and business strategy, cloud etc.
> i always used to build my own machines, but eventually got fed up of the bus mans holiday, and my wife bought me a MacBook Pro (MBP) - that was 10yrs ago and it finally gave up the ghost a month or two ago - in the interim I’ve had at least 4 work laptops, none as good as my MBP.
> ...


People always mention office apps when talking about Macs as if it’s a negative. As you say the Apple applications (numbers, keynote and pages) are really very good. But the thing is Microsoft do make Office for Macs as well. Our company uses more Macs than PCs and Office is our default option for word processing, spreadsheets and presentations. 
The reason we use Macs rather than PC is down to durability and flexibility. We have found that the Apple HW outlasts the equivalent Pc hardware by a significant margin. Having run like this for over ten years we have seen from our IT support that we have way less support issues with the Apple systems, it’s in the order of three times less. We are a SW company and every Mac has Parallels installed so the engineers can run different target OS environments for local testing. My work computer has three versions of Windows, five versions of OS-X and three releases of Ubuntu in VM’s for testing and the odd application that only runs in a specific environment, like 32bit Windows 7 as an example. People gloss over the a windows SW compatibility issues, they do exist. 
Disclosure: I’ve been an Apple user since the iie and have had pretty much every version between there and the M1, which I don’t have yet as I’m waiting for the big boy M chips to arrive. 
If someone wants a reliable personal use computer the lowest problem system is from Apple. In general “they just work”. I’ve swapped many relatives over to Apple after they had problems using Windows systems. As someone working with computers I was always the person they called when things didn’t work. Those calls become much less frequent once they are on Apple. 
A final point, no actually they are not more expensive when you consider life cost and the better generally better build quality. You can even buy the Mac Mini as a very low entry cost option if you want to compare to low end PC. I have a 15 year old Mac Mini running my network storage at home. It’s been running continuously for all that time (baring power outages and moving house twice).


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## stuartpaul (4 May 2021)

And therein lies the problem of computer buying! Someone like me who is a technical numpty asks what I thought was a simple question and end up almost more confused.

Droogs has a negative view (and as an apple service tech it’s extremely valid to me) and then padster and paulrbarnard are very positive long term users.

I think (!) I’ll go apple but then hone it at 23 degrees!

Hopefull I don’t sound ungrateful as I am thankful for all the advice and guidance. I suppose I should change my signature to ‘I used to be indecisive now I’m just not sure’.


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## paulrbarnard (4 May 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> And therein lies the problem of computer buying! Someone like me who is a technical numpty asks what I thought was a simple question and end up almost more confused.
> 
> Droogs has a negative view (and as an apple service tech it’s extremely valid to me) and then padster and paulrbarnard are very positive long term users.
> 
> ...



It’s like oil stones vs water stones . The reality is you will probably be perfectly happy which ever way you go. They are only tools after all and we all know it doesn’t matter which brand tool you use


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