# LN mortice chisel - handle issue



## MarcW (25 Dec 2007)

Hi all,

The 5/16 mortice chisel is a good tool. If only the handle was a tad longer. My praw grabs it with the little finger around the steel. That was not comfortable a grip. It was like holding something to thin in your hand. As I got a lathe this summer I turned a handle a bit longer. It felt fine. 







Now as I made a two inch deep mortise some days ago, the handle broke off as I levered out the chips of the bottom. I thought it was due to the pearwood I used for the handle... Meanwhile I had ordered two other LN chisels amongst which the one inch bench chisel. Its handle is a tad bigger, much better fitting my hand and I stuck it into the mortice chisel. Hm, guess now! What is a major advantage if you want to change the handle, is a drawback the moment you make mortises. Imagine, the movement you make in order to put off the handle - tapping it on the bench - is in principle the same you make when levering out chips or cleaning bottoms. Levering forth and back, the handle loosens. Now if I knew Maine hornbeam would resist breaking off; I'd epoxy it to the socket, but the past experiences with pearwood warns me to do so. Did you experience this and what did you do?

Merry Christmas


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## Paul Sellers (25 Dec 2007)

Hi Marc,
A good chisel handle wood for replacement handles is hickory and pickax and sledge hammer handles are often made from this wood. It has tremendous resistance to snapping and has the kind of flex needed for tools under stress. Being a close and fairly dense-grained hardwood it turns well on the lathe and resists even heavy mallet blows with a wooden mallet. This may well be a good and fairly inexpensive source (buying a replacement handle) for more chisel handles as you can get many chisel handles from a single pickax shaft, and a pikax shaft will accommodate any size of hand.

Paul Sellers


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## pam niedermayer (26 Dec 2007)

Stop that levering with the mortise chisels, even for western chisels it's not a good idea. You chop with mortise chisels, clean out with other tools.

Pam


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## seanybaby (26 Dec 2007)

I'm only a newbie to wood, however i thought Ash was good for handles because of it's bashing properties?
I think i read that somewhere :roll: Also boxwood (how does it compare to ash though?), but where can you buy it? 

Levering? Would you need something very hard? 

Pam - What wood u clean out with? :lol:


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## Joel Moskowitz (26 Dec 2007)

pam niedermayer":3a9try5l said:


> Stop that levering with the mortise chisels, even for western chisels it's not a good idea. You chop with mortise chisels, clean out with other tools.
> 
> Pam



Western mortise chisels are designed for levering out. bash the tool in (and I mean bash) lever the material out. (with the right tools about a minute - 2 for an average sized furniture mortise)
Japanese Sash mortise chisels (and actually the LN is a sash mortise chisels also) come from a different tradition where the smaller sizes especially are used to chop shallow mortises in softwood, as deep as possible with a clean bottom for maximum depth of mortise. a different animal entirely.


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## pam niedermayer (26 Dec 2007)

Joel, I know the mythology, even have used many western mortisers; but I contend otherwise. Everything about a mortise chisel, east or west, says bash me, bash me, apply force straight down. Now with the oval handled western whatever-they're-called, you can sort of lever a bit, perhaps drive them by hand rather than mallet; but their primary reason for being is digging holes, not cleaning them out.

Pam


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## paulm (26 Dec 2007)

Hi Marc,

I have done a similar exercise for my LN dovetail chisels, most recently the 1" one which needs a bit of pounding occasionally.

For the timber I happened to use some iroko as I had some the right size to hand and it's interlocking grain should, I think, take the blows without splitting or breaking too readily.

I think the key to the exercise is obviously getting a good tight fit throughout the length of the chisel socket. I did this by turning slightly oversize and then easing with a fine flat file on the timber off the lathe, literally a light stroke or two at a time, taking off the shiny areas of wood which showed where it was binding in the socket. Also left more room above the end of the socket than you have, before the handle proper starts, to allow the handle to be tightened in use without the bottom piece of timber grounding in the bottom of the socket, or the bottom of the handle proper grounding on the top lip of the chisel socket.

So I think it is possible to get a really good tight fitting handle without epoxy and I actually have the reverse problem to yourself on my 1" chisel where no matter what I do to it I now can't get the replacement handle to come off at all !!!

So I would try again and aim for a tighter fit, no bottoming in the socket, and a slightly longer (2 to 3mm) extra length above the socket, and use a stronger, tighter grained timber also.

Hope you get it sorted !

Cheers, Paul.


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## Joel Moskowitz (26 Dec 2007)

pam niedermayer":d66tbseg said:


> Joel, I know the mythology, even have used many western mortisers; but I contend otherwise. Everything about a mortise chisel, east or west, says bash me, bash me, apply force straight down. Now with the oval handled western whatever-they're-called, you can sort of lever a bit, perhaps drive them by hand rather than mallet; but their primary reason for being is digging holes, not cleaning them out.
> 
> Pam



Pam,
it's more than mythology - it's in contemporary literature since Moxon. and the geometry of the chisel. Any chisel with a reasonably thick section can be driven straight down, only a true mortise chisel is tapered front to back to avoid getting stuck and has the section to resist snapping when levering and a stout tang with big bolsters to take lateral levering on the handle. It's what differs a mortise chisel from a sash mortise chisel.


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## Paul Sellers (26 Dec 2007)

Please, please don't continue with the "don't lever with the mortise chisel" theories. After forty years of levering mortises with chisels of every type including those finely made by L-N and Ashly Isles; sash, mortise and bevel edged included, I have never yet bent a chisel though of course I easily could. Surely the leverage is all about sensitivity to the tool and the wood. What kind of world would be living in if all of those thousands of woodworkers had never been allowed to lever on their chisels in the cutting of multiple millions of chisel-cut and chisel-levered mortises?


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## Paul Sellers (26 Dec 2007)

seanybaby":3920u5eo said:


> I'm only a newbie to wood, however i thought Ash was good for handles because of it's bashing properties?
> I think i read that somewhere :roll: Also boxwood (how does it compare to ash though?), but where can you buy it? :lol:



Just thought I could help on the choice of wood bit. Ash does make a good chisel handle and many manufacturers past and present use it because it's a native western hardwood that is readily available and poses no threats to endangered forestlands. It's fibers are somewhat softer than other hardwoods though it is plenty hard enough for everything from chisel handles to hammer and axe shafts and mallet heads and more.
Box wood is still respected as the premier wood for chisel handles simply because of its highly dense and close grained structure which is both hard and resilient to any type of mistreatment exclusive of burning. At one time, prior to the impact resistant plastics, almost all chisels, even the mass-manufactured ones by Marples were made from solid boxwood. I have some that I acquired over forty years ago and that were old even then that are just as good today.
Well-dried and seasoned boxwood can be hard to come across. I bought some at the North Yorkshire woodworking show in rounds with the bark still on. it was one of the vendors there but I'm sorry, their name escapes me.

Sincerely,

Paul Sellers


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## Paul Sellers (26 Dec 2007)

pam niedermayer":2urr10fi said:


> Joel, I know the mythology, even have used many western mortisers; but I contend otherwise. Everything about a mortise chisel, east or west, says bash me, bash me, apply force straight down. Now with the oval handled western whatever-they're-called, you can sort of lever a bit, perhaps drive them by hand rather than mallet; but their primary reason for being is digging holes, not cleaning them out.
> 
> Pam



Pam,
I am trying to imagine what it would be like to drive the old western mortise chisels purely by hand rather than with a mallet in the reality of my everyday work and I cannot imagine how long it would take to cut a mortise hole even in soft pine. 
Mortise chisels are massive in profile, bulk of handle and mass of steel. It wouldn't surprise me if they weigh-in at over two pounds, but I haven't weighed any recently. Anyway, I have some Ray Isles mortise chisels over in my US tools which came from Tools For Working Wood (I wish I had brought them with me here) and after I reviewed them through heavy heavy mortise chopping with a mallet and repeated levering in oak, hard maple, walnut and cherry mortises I concluded this one fact, they were the best mortising chisels I have ever used and you can really work with them without worrying too much at all. Of course in all of this I applied Newton's third law of reciprocal actions wherein: 
Third Law
Whenever a particle A exerts a force on another particle B, B simultaneously exerts a force on A with the same magnitude in the opposite direction. The strong form of the law further postulates that these two forces act along the same line. This law is often simplified into the sentence "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". In other words, using a mallet will help to get the job done quickly and efficiently.
Mortise chisels USA


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## MarcW (26 Dec 2007)

Thank you all for your input. I highly esteem all your answers to my question.

Paul (Sellers), I will try a new handle in american ash, it is the wood I have. BTW I enjoyed much the reading of your site. 

Pam, I always levered out chips with a mortice chisel, except when I used my japanese bench chisels. Then I cleaned the bottom and took out the chips with a Bottom Cleaning Chisel (Sokozari Nomi). Nonetheless I like bashing and levering with one tool only. It is a time saver. But the sokozari - a very useful tool - is yet always in the bench tray.

Joel, I'd like to use an Iles mortise chisel once, but the current sizes are often out of stock. I guess this is a good sign.  One day I will be lucky enough.


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## Anonymous (26 Dec 2007)

pam niedermayer":6adds4ur said:


> Stop that levering with the mortise chisels, even for western chisels it's not a good idea. You chop with mortise chisels, clean out with other tools.
> 
> Pam



Which other tools?

Why is it not a good idea?

Why do yo think the mortise chosel geometry is the way it is? To lever out the waste :roll:


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## Joel Moskowitz (26 Dec 2007)

MarcW":30eg4l8x said:


> Joel, I'd like to use an Iles mortise chisel once, but the current sizes are often out of stock. I guess this is a good sign.  One day I will be lucky enough.


Marc,
Ray is making larger and larger batches of chisels but the chisels are getting more and more popular. I suggest you place the order and we will ship when we have your sizes in stock. (usually not that much of a wait past a month or two)
Joel


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## pam niedermayer (27 Dec 2007)

Tony":3eboxmnz said:


> Which other tools?
> 
> Why is it not a good idea?
> 
> Why do yo think the mortise chosel geometry is the way it is? To lever out the waste



There are the swan neck tools designed for levering out chunks of wood, sculpting the bottom. There are also 3 Japanese tools that you can see at the Hida site. Go to http://www.hidatool.com/shop/shop.html and choose Woodworking Chisels, scroll down about 1/3 of the page to the Takahashi and Fujihiro cleanup chisels.

It's not a good idea, except for the oval handled bolster version, for exactly the reason for this thread. With socketed handles, they can break. Also, you put great pressure on the edge (the oval handled bolsters I've seen have sort of rounded edges that are strong). With Japanese chisels it's simply the best way to trash edges.

Which mortise chisels geometry are you talking about? The trapezoid shape is, I think, more to cleanly cut the mortise without having the sides get in the way. The arrises on Japanese chisels are very sharp, cut like a dream. I once had several square mortise chisels that did a great job of splitting the wood.

Pam


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## pam niedermayer (27 Dec 2007)

As to pushing mortise chisels rather than bashing, see the follow-up threads to Adam Cherubini's original post (for the life of me I can't find the original post): http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.ne ... v5=lk3ty5r
http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.ne ... 5=ly34ts5w
http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.ne ... 5=n4bpyf9g


Pam


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## MikeW (27 Dec 2007)

No doubt Adam has done this method. I assume from lacking the referenced post, Adam has seen this method in print. I also have no doubt it is a far slower method.

From the condition of *every* vintage mortise chisel's handle I have seen or seen pictures of, I suspect their owners also didn't think highly of pushing mortise chisels.

If I have bored a series of holes to define a mortise, I use firmers and push and pare...but not in order to define and excavate a mortise sans drilling.

I have and use the oval bolstered kind mostly. I have also owned and used socket and still own tang sash mortise chisels. I cannot imagine using socketed sash mortise chisels in any wood type save softwood. Larger socketed mortise chisels that have more substantial "meat" in the socket like those Smalser uses, maybe. Never owned them, though.

Because I have never had a problem with the tanged sash mortise chisels but did with the socketed type popping off their handles, I sold them off. Wasn't worth the aggrevation. (Same goes for socketed bench chisels--but that's another story.)

I also have a couple swan necks. Fairly thin ones for lock mortises and the narrow mortises I use on the mantle clocks I use to make. But only because there isn't room to pry. On furniture-sized mortises...I pry, lever and clean using the OBM chisel that happens to be in my hand at the time.

Take care, Mike


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## matthewwh (27 Dec 2007)

Hi Marc,

A very interesting thread - thank you! 

I'm in the chop with a mallet, lever and clean all with one tool camp on this one, although I would add the caveat that the size of your stitches should be proportional to the size of the chisel. Your LN is a fine sash mortice chisel designed to pop out chips no more than a couple of mm thick, which you should be able to lever out almost with the weight of the chisel alone. A tanged mortice chisel will make heftier stitches, so they are a bit faster for larger mortices and production work. 

With reference to the handle problem, you might try holding the chisel at the narrowest part between thumb and forefinger. This is more than enough to steady the tool as the shoulders guide the tip once the mortice is established; it also gives you a longer visual referance to ensure that your cut remains plumb. (a tip recently picked up from David C's _'Chisel Techniques for Precision Joinery'_). Using this technique the proportion of your hand to the size of the handle doesn't matter.


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## woodbloke (27 Dec 2007)

mathewwh wrote:


> I'm in the chop with a mallet, lever and clean all with one tool camp on this one, although I would add the caveat that the size of your stitches should be proportional to the size of the chisel. Your LN is a fine sash mortice chisel designed to pop out chips no more than a couple of mm thick, which you should be able to lever out almost with the weight of the chisel alone. A tanged mortice chisel will make heftier stitches, so they are a bit faster for larger mortices and production work.


I'm in agreement with Mathew on this one. I've always chopped and levered 'specially with a tanged sash mortice chisel. I think that the LN mortice chisels would need to have a smaller cut (2mm probably) as the levering action is taken up by the handle which is contained within the socket...so heavier cuts may well damage the handle :? or cause it to come loose? - Rob


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## MarcW (27 Dec 2007)

Hi all,

Reading your posts, Mike and Matthew, I guess, I bought the wrong tool for my chopping and levering technique. I watched David's dvd on chisel technique for precision joinery and did not stick with it, because my bashing technique produced square and even dimensioned mortises in less time. Surely it is a matter of practice too as most techniques accelerate of their own...

So I have to sell a LN sash mortice chisel 5/16. Who wants one? Original handle and box included, sure.


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## Paul Sellers (27 Dec 2007)

pam niedermayer":130hu6xa said:


> Tony":130hu6xa said:
> 
> 
> > Which other tools?
> ...


Hi Pam, 
You are right about swan neck chisels being used to clear out the bottom of mortises, but swan neck chisels were used for the very deep mortises associated with the installation of mortise locks after face or rim locks became obsolete. I am sure some used them for levering regular mortises but in reality the whole system of mortising is a series of actions whereby the person strikes the mortise chisel in it's perpendicular position to the wood and then immediately levers in quick succession with the same chisel as he or she traverses the mortise hole from one side to the other, which actually deepens with each subsequent mallet-lever, mallet-lever action until the mortise is rough-cut. He then turns the chisel around and repeats the same mallet-levering action in the opposite direction which actually levels the depth of the hole. It's not scientific at all. Swan neck chisels were not generally available in all width sizes and actually the most common sizes were between 1/2" and 5/8" which was fine if the holes were bigger but useless of course if smaller. 
Also, it is not normal for any chisel handle to break. I think that this incident was an exception and not the norm. I cannot ever remember breaking a chisel handle in forty three years of working with wood every single day. Socketed chisels are no more likely to break than any other and I would also add that sensitivity doesn't happen by accident, you have to cultivate it. It may well have been some other failure rather than design. Most people, no matter what they are doing, lever with chisels, chisels of every different kind. 

Paul Sellers


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## MarcW (27 Dec 2007)

Paul Sellers":2hpv924o said:


> ...
> Also, it is not normal for any chisel handle to break. I think that this incident was an exception and not the norm. I cannot ever remember breaking a chisel handle in forty three years of working with wood every single day. Socketed chisels are no more likely to break than any other and I would also add that sensitivity doesn't happen by accident, you have to cultivate it. It may well have been some other failure rather than design. Most people, no matter what they are doing, lever with chisels, chisels of every different kind.
> 
> Paul Sellers



Ouch Paul,

That was a smart rap over the knuckles. I already gave in and quasi apologized - if not I do now - having used the wrong tool for my bashing and levering technique. 

Some weeks ago a woodworker friend called to tell me, he had splitted two LN socket chisel's handles... I already said that my shop made pearwood handle broke off. Maybe there was a defect in the wood. Look at the picture you'll see two knots. At any rate I make or made responsable nobody except me for the broken handle. My query was to know what to do - The answer was I used the wrong technique for this tool which is quite a good one. So I will buy another Sorby sash mortice chisel or a registered mortice chisel and will put me on the waiting list for an Iles obm chisel.

I do not like to be told I have to cultivate my sensitivity. This is a nice place to talk wood and above all tools but it is not gentle to offend woodworkers. You see I'm quite sensitive.



Paul Sellers":2hpv924o said:


> Please, please don't continue with the "don't lever with the mortise chisel" theories. After forty years of levering mortises with chisels of every type including those finely made by L-N and Ashly Isles; sash, mortise and bevel edged included, I have never yet bent a chisel though of course I easily could. Surely the leverage is all about sensitivity to the tool and the wood. What kind of world would be living in if all of those thousands of woodworkers had never been allowed to lever on their chisels in the cutting of multiple millions of chisel-cut and chisel-levered mortises?



And what I do not understand now: Do you lever or don't you? On the first page of the thread you tell to do so and now you tell le contraire? What now?

What a day, cheers :?


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## Paul Sellers (27 Dec 2007)

Sorry Marc,
I wasn't addressing you, I was simply saying the as we grow we hopefully become increasingly more sensitive and aware of how and when to lever and how much. I may not have broken a chisel handle but I have certainly done my share of damage in other areas. All areas of woodworking become intuitive the more we do them and so we grow in sensitivity to where the real enjoyment comes. 
I have enjoyed these postings because I believe they were helpful to others and to me also. I am so glad the questions came up and thank you for posting. Levering is unquestioningly a must in all areas of woodworking. That's what it's all about. I certainly know beyond any doubt ,and I think I said it, that wood is often unpredictable and has faults that can certainly cause a handle to split.
I had decided with my last post that this issue was complete and so I hope that we have all ended up closer to one another by the dialogue and that we have grown in our woodworking knowledge.

Thanks for everything

Paul Sellers


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## pam niedermayer (27 Dec 2007)

Paul Sellers":37rq3ciw said:


> ...I am sure some used them for levering regular mortises but in reality the whole system of mortising is a series of actions whereby the person strikes the mortise chisel in it's perpendicular position to the wood and then immediately levers in quick succession with the same chisel as he or she traverses the mortise hole from one side to the other, which actually deepens with each subsequent mallet-lever, mallet-lever action until the mortise is rough-cut. He then turns the chisel around and repeats the same mallet-levering action in the opposite direction which actually levels the depth of the hole.



I'm a devotee of Jeff Gorman's alternative method whereby one starts in the middle of the mortise-to-be, chops a couple of times with the bevel aimed at the end so the chopping action clears out chopped wood, then turns the chisel around and chops some more. When one works this way, there's little to no pressure on the chisel when one levers. It's not really a levering, more of a flipping. Only when one gets to the end does one turn the chisel around so the back faces the edge. I think this is often called "following the bevel."

Yes, I've got Jeff's old page that illustrates this process, clear as glass; but you'll have to ask him to repost it on his website or something.

Pam


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## Woody Alan (27 Dec 2007)

> I had decided with my last post that this issue was complete


Hmmm not quite got the hang of this yet?   


Sorry couldn't resist... appreciate your comments on this forum and do hope you continue to hang around here and give the benefit of your experience, but don't expect to get off too light 

Alan


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## Digit (30 Dec 2007)

Are these modern Sash Mortise chisels made of softer metal backed by hardened steel by the way?

Roy.


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## Sgian Dubh (30 Dec 2007)

Sorry Pam, but I have to join the chorus of those that disagree with you on the use of a mortice chisel.

If I can't leather the hell out of a mortise chisel by heavy whacking and levering it's about as much use to me as an ashtray on a motorbike.

I admit that I don't use a mortice chisel every day for paying work, preferring to set up the machines to do multiple mortices, but for a one-off I can mark it and 'brutalise' it out quicker by hand than I can set up a machine to do it. 

I expect, for instance, to mark and execute a mortice by hand in something fairly hard like oak or maple that's 2" long X 3/8" wide X 1-1/2" deep in about five or seven minutes. I don't know if that's fast or slow but that's about how long it normally takes me. Slainte.


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## Digit (30 Dec 2007)

It's a damn site faster than me! I never seem to get them correct so I use a home made Mortise jig and a modified router. With this set up I can cut Mortises about 3 inches deep and as wide and long as you like.
I recently made some veranda rails in oak requiring 120 mortises and tenons. The tenons were cut on my table saw with, again, a home made jig, far quicker and more accurately than I can cut them by hand.

Roy.


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## woodbloke (30 Dec 2007)

Richard has it...I was always taught to wack a mortice chisel *hard*, that's what they're designed for. The first little trench ought to be about 2 or 3mm deep just to register the outline of the mortice and after that, I work from the centre towards each end, reversing the blade each time so that the chip has a void to collapse into. The waste is levered out down to the full depth (about 2mm longer than the tenon) and each cut is maybe chopping out 2mm at a time. What is important is that the chopping stops about 2mm from the line at each end or else the levering action will damage the top surface. The last two cuts are made with the chisel on the line at each end and are chopped vertically to the full depth... the waste is then levered forwards into the mortice and I usually break up the chips with a small screwdriver and blow them out of the hole (making sure that eyes are closed :wink As Richard says, the whole process shouldn't take more than a few minutes, if it does, then you ain't belting the tool hard enough - Rob


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## pam niedermayer (31 Dec 2007)

Rob, that's pretty much the way I chop mortises, too, ala Jeff Gorman, haven't a clue from whom he got it. However, there's more than enough room for other methods; and several people who's judgement I trust have reported that they've gotten excellent results from hand levering.

Hi, Richard, how's it going?

Pam


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## Paul Sellers (31 Dec 2007)

Keeping it simple is what's always hard: 

Strike, lever, strike and strike again and lever out the waste.

Doesn't matter where you start, but when you do make haste

Some say it's in the middle start and some say left to right

It doesn't really matter much but it shouldn't take all night

It's good to banter back and forth and maybe it's a matter of taste

But I find that nothing can compare with levering out the waste

Paul Sellers


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## Sgian Dubh (31 Dec 2007)

pam niedermayer":1zdxuxul said:


> Hi, Richard, how's it going? Pam



Pretty darned good, Pam. It's Hogmanay, and I plan to drink too much between now and midnight. 

I guess I'll be leathering hell out of the booze too, as well as my mortice chisels---- on another day, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## bswiseman (1 Jan 2008)

Here's a few pics of my attempt (please don't laugh!) at mortising for my workbench frame in pine (or spruce?). Didn't want to use my Sorby's and didn't have a proper mortise chisel so I used a Stanley 3/4" made in China from a set of three for under 10 USD. Not a pleasure to use but actually seemed to hold up to the "Strike, lever, strike and strike again and lever out the waste". I am concerned that since they are trough mortises they will not "show" very well. I should have been more careful with gauging as some lines were a bit squiggly. Are the mortise sides usually this rough or does a proper mortise chisel help or is it me?

Also, anyone compared the British Ashley Iles mortise chisels with Lie-Nielsen?

Many Thanks,

Stephen


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## Paul Sellers (1 Jan 2008)

Hi Stephen,

I find it best to concentrate the chops close together, especially working in pine. That tears the side walls less and defines the hole to more concise tolerances, especially in the opening cuts where it matters the most because they are most visible. I don't worry as much when making a workbench as I do in making furniture where I use hardwoods like oak, ash, cherry or walnut, which all chop much more cleanly in general.

When you first use the mortise gauge I find that students put lots of pressure downwards so that both pins score at the same time whereas tey should be pressing the stock laterally against the side of the wood and make two or three passes until the gauge lines become mor visible. The guage lines shouldn't generally go too deep because that effectively widens the hole by creating a trough wider than the pin points which looks like a gap but is only surface deep. try applying most of the pressure laterally and I think it will work better for you. Also, the downside of gauge lines in pine as opposed to harder woods with more consistent grain density, is that the pins more readily penetrate too deeply and then the pins follow the grain's direction, which is often hard to correct.

Apart from old mortise chisels, I have only used the Ray Iles chisels which are just perfect. I'd like to try the L-N some day.

Regards,

Paul


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## bswiseman (4 Jan 2008)

Thanks Paul! I did much better marking out the tenons.
Stephen


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