# New Laws vs Mail Order Tools



## aesmith (23 Jun 2018)

Hi,
As in the subject, is anyone else worried about the Offensive Weapons Bill that's currently going through parliament? All the publicity is all about knives and weapons, but the actual proposed law would affect any _"bladed article"_, only marginally qualified as articles _"capable of causing a serious injury to a person which involves cutting that person’s skin."_ So my read is that it would impact mail order sales of all sorts of woodworking tools as well as the tools of other trades like fishing or even hairdressing. 

For the detail, see here .. https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/20 ... ments.html

Tony S


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## SteveW1000 (24 Jun 2018)

Having a quick read seems it could impact on the supply of woodworking tools also the supply of corrosive substancies to residential property could mean everything from the mail order of drain cleaner to home metal plating and welding. Time to ask my MP some questions.


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## JohnPW (24 Jun 2018)

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/b ... #pb3-l1g15



> Delivery of bladed products to residential premises etc
> 
> (1) This section applies if—
> 
> ...



It seems the plan is to outlaw the mail order selling of bladed items to residential addresses?!

The effect is going to be huge!

What about if the blade is completely blunt?

Or delivery to your work address, if you've got one.


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## t8hants (24 Jun 2018)

Once again the criminals and idiots win as the law abiding have their rights further eroded. I hope they are going to include sharpened pencils on the list as you can stab some stone dead with a sharpened pencil.


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## Racers (24 Jun 2018)

Rusty compass in my day!

Pete


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## sammy.se (24 Jun 2018)

I'm all in favour of very tightly controlled sale of corrosive substances. Lots of attacks in my area (London) and they are life changing injuries.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## AndyT (24 Jun 2018)

I've had a quick look at the Explanatory Note, which is a bit easier to read than the legislation.

I agree with the OP - it does seem that the intention is to stop any remote sale of "bladed products" and that the definition of a bladed item is ridiculously wide. 

It does look like the bill, if passed, will kill off millions of innocent transactions where law abiding people order kitchen gadgets, tools for gardening, dress making - and woodworking - because there are no specialist shops selling those things!

I think it's an utterly stupid idea from politicians who think that criminals read up on all the laws and obey them.

This bill will not stop bad people injuring anyone. Bringing about social and economic conditions in which people don't need to commit crimes could be the answer, but it needs a level of dedication and wisdom which our government and legislature lack.


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## aesmith (24 Jun 2018)

I don't think there's a lot of awareness or understanding of this, seeing only the intention to control what they see as obvious weapons. For example a work colleague was quite dismissive along the lines of _"there's no argument, knives are dangerous and need to be controlled"_. Not only was he unaware that items other than knives would be controlled, but he was even surprised that a Stanley Knife would fall within the definitions. I'll bet there have been more injuries from attacks with a Stanley knives than from zombie knives.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Jun 2018)

"there's no argument, knives are dangerous and need to be controlled". So we stop totally innocent people carrying knives and see people stabbed to death by scrotes with a screwdriver. I wonder what they'll use when we ban the sale of screwdrivers? :?  
(I've carried a knife since I was eight years old and don't see why I should stop now.)


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## t8hants (24 Jun 2018)

The problem is anything can be used as a weapon, so as you slide down the scale of offensive items banning each one in turn, so the next is taken up. Presumable as a 4" nail through a piece of wood is very offensive so nails must come under the ban, or long screws. Once we get away from sharp potential weapons and move on to blunt objects then the list will get unmanageable.
However what I am getting fed up with is losing rights, simply because cities have a problems the rest of the country doesn't. If London disappeared off the face of the earth taking its benighted inhabitants with it, the rest of the country could get on with normal life instead of being tarnished by the activities of the mass lunatic asylum.


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## Peter Sefton (24 Jun 2018)

Maybe there is still a place for bricks and motar shops after all.

Cheers Peter


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## Sawdust=manglitter (24 Jun 2018)

Peter Sefton":3177e5y6 said:


> Maybe there is still a place for bricks and motar shops after all.
> 
> Cheers Peter



Unfortunately that’s doesn’t help anyone (like me) that doesn’t live anywhere near a choice of bricks and mortar shops, which would also mean the remote shops could name their price as there will be no other choice without a minimum of 1hrs drive


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## Peter Sefton (24 Jun 2018)

Sawdust=manglitter":2mf0emk9 said:


> Peter Sefton":2mf0emk9 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe there is still a place for bricks and motar shops after all.
> ...



Doesn't help me either running an tool shop where most of the business is online, just trying to look on the bright side, it's amazing how things come around in circles. 

Cheers Peter


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## thetyreman (24 Jun 2018)

best buy all them planes, chisels and knives now then before it's illegal


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## Sideways (24 Jun 2018)

No, that's utterly defeatist. While the chances of anyone listening is low, as I believe they all just want the PR value of saying "look at us, we did something about this awful problem", best email the bloody silly person politicians so they can't say they didn't know the consequences of their actions.


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## Tasky (25 Jun 2018)

aesmith":q5h1kblh said:


> _"there's no argument, knives are dangerous and need to be controlled"_.


Point out to this person that I could do FAR more damage to them with a 28" walking stick than any knife... 

This is just like when they put bans on 'samurai swords', while leaving out every other kind of sword. It's just BS reactions and panic banning of whatever people are using at the time.


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## aesmith (25 Jun 2018)

JohnPW":10nhza1f said:


> Or delivery to your work address, if you've got one.


My read of the documents is that delivery to residential addresses will be completely prohibited. And delivery to non-residential addresses will have to be by a carrier that is prepared to verify the age of the person they hand the package to.

I could be wrong, but I can't see anything removing that age verification requirement for business addresses, or any exception to the prohibition on residential addresses.


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## clanger (25 Jun 2018)

*"15(2) - The seller commits an offence if, for the purposes of supplying the bladed 
product to the buyer, the seller delivers the bladed product, or arranges for its 
delivery, to residential premises."*
Does this mean that Axminster's cannot deliver a 100kg Planer Thicknesser to my home address, just in case I intend to use it in a violent attack.


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## LeeElms (25 Jun 2018)

And presumably no more services to sharpen saw & planer blades by post?


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## RogerP (25 Jun 2018)

eBay have for a long time been very iffy about listings containing the word "blade"


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## Tasky (25 Jun 2018)

clanger":3n1wmm39 said:


> Does this mean that Axminster's cannot deliver a 100kg Planer Thicknesser to my home address, just in case I intend to use it in a violent attack.



As I read it, yes. 

I'm sure the law will get tweaked again when they realise they're killing off thousands of businesses... Mainly the big DIY shops like B&Q, who have the money to challenge it.


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## kdampney (25 Jun 2018)

RogerP":199jktoi said:


> eBay have for a long time been very iffy about listings containing the word "blade"



The Bill's "bladed article" definition is in Clause 18, subsection 11:


> In this section *“bladed article”*—
> (a) in relation to England and Wales, *means an article to which section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies* (as that section has effect in relation to England and Wales);
> (b) in relation to Scotland, means an article to which section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies (as that section has effect in relation to Scotland and disregarding subsection (3A) of that section);
> (c) in relation to Northern Ireland, means an article to which Article 54 of the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (SI 1996/3160 (NI 24)) applies.



The Criminal Justice Act 1988, section 141A is too long to quote, (see here for the full thing), but (for England & Wales) it says:


> ...this section applies to...any knife, knife blade or razor blade...and *any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed and* which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person.



So I'm guessing that the Act 1988 is the reason why things like scissors and chisels are in indestructible packaging and say "Do not sell to under-16s". However, from the wording of the Act, that seems like overkill (no pun intended) as they haven't been _adapted for use for causing injury_, so who knows how this Bill will be interpreted...


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Jun 2018)

Interesting that underneath this thread in the Similar Topics is - Mother in laws death questions :lol:


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## tomatwark (25 Jun 2018)

It will also effect businesses I suspect, as some of the couriers will just apply a blanket ban on deliveries to make their lives easier.


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## tomatwark (25 Jun 2018)

Also I have just noticed the bit about school premises, does this mean that the colleges, and schools can no longer teach wood working, sewing , cooking, and more importantly train doctors and nurses.


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## tomatwark (25 Jun 2018)

In similar topics I am getting mail order razors.

Does this put these firms out of business.

I suspect that there will be some further amendments to this bill.


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## marcros (25 Jun 2018)

I hope that there will be some amendments. 

Taking the razor blade example. It is ideal for a back bedroom business. Stocking a range of blades takes up minimal room, and the target market is anybody who can make the small postal charge work for them. That is anybody in the uk, and possibly further afield. It probably isn't viable as a bricks and mortar store which could only target a few tens of thousands of people in a big city, much less in a town.


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## Just4Fun (26 Jun 2018)

tomatwark":2govg7ne said:


> It will also effect businesses I suspect, as some of the couriers will just apply a blanket ban on deliveries to make their lives easier.


Or what about this alternative business model for a courier?
Suppose at the moment I can order a bladed widget from you for £20 plus £10 delivery.
In future I do the same, sending you £30.
The courier buys the item from you for one penny in a face-to-face transaction which is no problem under the proposed regulations. At the same time they sell you their autograph for £10.
The courier then brings the item to me and I buy it from them for £1. Again, a face-to-face transaction so no problem. The courier's net total revenue on the deal has gone up from £10 to £10.99 and I have found a way around the rules at a cost of £1.
With this business model the new rules provide couriers with an opportunity for increased revenue and a way to take business from any competitors who take the easy way out by refusing to carry bladed items.


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## profchris (26 Jun 2018)

kdampney":o41gglhf said:


> RogerP":o41gglhf said:
> 
> 
> > eBay have for a long time been very iffy about listings containing the word "blade"
> ...



The definition for the mail order offence is in section 17(1) and is much wider, certainly covering planes and chisels.

I've just written to my MP as follows:



> I am writing, as one of your constituents, to alert you to the likely effect of the Offensive Weapons Bill which I suspect to be unintended.
> 
> Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a bladed product by mail order, and is clearly aimed at knives and other potential weapons. However, the definition of bladed product in section 17(1) covers a wide range of products which are unlikely to be potential weapons. I am an amateur woodworker, and this provision would prevent me buying planes, chisels or saws. Model makers will be unable to buy scalpels and craft knives. Razors seem to be caught by the wording, even disposable razors whose plastic guard can be snapped off in seconds. I am sure there are many other similar products which would also be affected.
> 
> ...



It would be good if others also wrote (maybe changing my text so it doesn't look like an organised campaign, perhaps say how it would affect you personally).

MPs' email addresses are at https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/


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## custard (26 Jun 2018)

profchris":11svg2ml said:


> I've just written to my MP as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Practical, sensible advice that I intend to follow. Thank you.


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## Racers (26 Jun 2018)

I have emailed my local MP.

Pete


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## RogerP (26 Jun 2018)

Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Jun 2018)

Done. I did add that as we are a rural area it will affect us more than city dwellers (there has to be some benefit in living in a city I suppose  ) and also that it will quite likely put many small especially rurally based suppliers out of business.


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## Sawdust=manglitter (26 Jun 2018)

I have also just done the same. Thanks profchris!!


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## skelph (26 Jun 2018)

Just emailed my MP and pointed out that those in rural areas like me are the worst affected - don't suppose it will make much difference really until businesses like Axminster, Workshop Heaven, Classic Hand Tools etc get involved.


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## Tasky (26 Jun 2018)

profchris":1mhtqaxi said:


> Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a bladed product by mail order, and is clearly aimed at knives and other potential weapons. However, the definition of bladed product in section 17(1) covers a wide range of products which are unlikely to be potential weapons.



However... Section 17(2) immediately afterward states:

17/. Meaning of “bladed product” in sections 15 and 16
(2) In sections 15 and 16 so far as they apply to England and Wales, “bladed product” *does not include *an article described in—
(a) section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959,
*(b) an order under section 141(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, or *
(c) an order made by the Secretary of State under section 141A(3)(c) of that
Act.

So 17(2) seems to specifically *exclude *that wide range of products, under 141(2) of the CJA 1988..... which, as I read it, means we're fine since chisels and the like are not specifically made for the purpose of hurting someone... and only if you then adapt it for such things yourself, does it become a crime. 

American style unguarded tablesaws, however..... Deadly weapons, the lot of 'em!! :lol:


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## Tasky (26 Jun 2018)

tomatwark":3r3er1dj said:


> Also I have just noticed the bit about school premises, does this mean that the colleges, and schools can no longer teach wood working, sewing , cooking


They never taught it back when I was in education, anyway....


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## Sawdust=manglitter (26 Jun 2018)

Response received from my local MP...



> Thank you for writing to me to express your concerns about the clause in the Offensive Weapons Bill which makes it an offence to sell bladed products by mail order. I hear your concerns, and I support any reasonable measure to combat violent crime but I believe knee-jerk legislation which may have unintended consequences must be avoided.
> 
> In the same way as the clause to prohibit the sale of certain firearms, I believe a number of organisations, including the Countryside Alliance, have raised concerns with the Home Office regarding the complexity of firearms usage, and the possible risks of badly worded legislation for legitimate users.
> 
> ...


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## SteveF (26 Jun 2018)

I see this could have quite an impact on a woodworker
bandsaw blades, planer blades, router bits, spindle moulders, marking knife, scratch awl, circular saws the list is endless
surely they will have to have a huge list of exceptions

I am not sure what can be done about blade related attacks, but I don't think this will help

Steve


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## AndyT (26 Jun 2018)

... indeed, it's _just_ possible that young criminals who want to get hold of knives will *steal* them instead of buying them... which would make the politicians' attempt to reduce knife crime by passing more laws look pretty well useless.


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## thetyreman (26 Jun 2018)

can't help thinking that cuts to police play a massive part in this, also I wouldn't be surprised if there's a new tax on businesses that sell tools, which will make things even harder for them, online or not, it's not progress, it's a step backwards.


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## Rob_Mc (26 Jun 2018)

... or any young criminals who want a knife and cannot buy one will surely manufacture their own weapon. After all they don't sell knives in prison but I imagine even the least innovative of prisoners could fashion a shiv out of whatever is to hand should they need to.

The more discerning criminal may even become an ardent viewer of the 'Forged in Fire' tv program and invest the necessary equipment to forge his own weapon (a chavvy version of a Jedi crafting his own lightsabre). That is until they ban the sale of all tools that can possibly be used to manufacture bladed items too.

This proposed change in the law has clearly not been thought through properly and is unlikely to achieve the intended reduction in knife crime.


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## LukeB (26 Jun 2018)

Hey Guys, 
I just joined this forum after googling the new legislation. I run a bushcraft retail business, I won't post links here as I don't want to look like i'm plugging my site. 

We have a group on facebook for discussing the legislation called the 'blade traders association'
Feel free to join if you wish.

We've been established for about 10 months and had a few meetings and pooled responses from MPs. Tomorrow should be an interesting day with the debate in parliament. 

Let's hope someone makes them see sense.


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## Tasky (27 Jun 2018)

Rob_Mc":as5wotnq said:


> The more discerning criminal may even become an ardent viewer of the 'Forged in Fire' tv program and invest the necessary equipment to forge his own weapon (a chavvy version of a Jedi crafting his own lightsabre). That is until they ban the sale of all tools that can possibly be used to manufacture bladed items too.


At which point they'll go all Ray Mears and start frapping flint blades that they bind to wooden handles with animal sinews...


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## aesmith (27 Jun 2018)

Tasky":1mjucr5v said:


> profchris":1mjucr5v said:
> 
> 
> > Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a bladed product by mail order, and is clearly aimed at knives and other potential weapons. However, the definition of bladed product in section 17(1) covers a wide range of products which are unlikely to be potential weapons.
> ...



I don't read it that way. Section 141(2) of the CJA 1988 defines some items as weapons and therefore illegal to sell _"Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence .."_. So those weapons are excluded from the scope of this legislation as they're illegal anyway. What's left is defined as any bladed article capable of causing injury by piercing the skin.


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## RogerP (27 Jun 2018)

RogerP":1i95w1nh said:


> Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).


All I got back was ...

_Think that only affects under 18 buyers Roger

Best regards
Richard

Richard Graham
Member of Parliament for Gloucester
2 College Street, Gloucester, GL1 2NE
_

... glad I didn't vote for him!


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## custard (27 Jun 2018)

I emailed my MP as follows,



> As one of your constituents I'd like to raise a likely but unintended side-effect of the Offensive Weapons Bill.
> 
> Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a "bladed product" by mail order. Although this is intended to reduce knife crime, the wide definition of bladed products in section 17(1) covers a huge range of entirely legitimate products that will never be used as weapons.
> 
> ...



He replied within the day promising to look into it and notify the minister concerned. Can't ask for fairer than that.


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## MattRoberts (27 Jun 2018)

Nice one custard, look forward to seeing any reply


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## custard (28 Jun 2018)

Just had an email from my MP (Desmond Swayne), pointing out he'd flagged the question during the Bill's second reading yesterday,



> Offensive Weapons Bill
> 
> 27 June 2018
> Volume 643
> ...


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## Woody2Shoes (28 Jun 2018)

Well done Custard! (Even if you did get "demoted" to "carpenter"!).

Looks like your MP is doing a decent job.


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## Garno (28 Jun 2018)

RogerP":2iizugjo said:


> RogerP":2iizugjo said:
> 
> 
> > Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).
> ...



I bet he knows you didn't vote for him .....................


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## MattRoberts (28 Jun 2018)

Really impressed that your MP brought it up so quickly Custard - I'd vote for him!


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## LukeB (28 Jun 2018)

custard":3958wdgg said:


> Just had an email from my MP (Desmond Swayne), pointing out he'd flagged the question during the Bill's second reading yesterday,



Excellent work and he sure was keen to get your point across. I think your next move should be to point out to your MP that the exclusions Sajid Javid said are in place do not solve the problem. An amendment is needed for either 'tools of the trade' or 'hobby knives'. Maybe try asking your MP if he will table an amendment in committee stage. Once again, well done. My MP is under the impression "knives are bad, and should all be banned" - paraphrasing a bit.


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## Tasky (29 Jun 2018)

My right honourable Friends seem to forget that the problem is not underage online sales, or even in the exotic zombie knives and things they're trying to ban. It is the culture and the mentality that would lead people to picking up an item and using it to harm someone else. 

Because no matter what you ban, people will just find ways of using something else: 
In 1180AD the City of London banned schools of Sword & Buckler, because too many young men were picking fights of a Saturday night. 
In Japan, swords were famously banned for those below certain social classes, yet we now have a wealth of martial arts (and films) that revolve around agricultural tools used effectively as weapons. Heck, the Royal Armoury has always kept enough Billhooks to fully arm the Yeomen of the contemporary English army more than twice over, because they were so good at using forestry tools on the battlefield. 

I've had knives and swords ever since I was a kid. I've *not once* stabbed anyone with them...


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## Paddy Roxburgh (29 Jun 2018)

Custard, fair play to your MP. Him being a Tory and me finding Jeremy Corbyn a bit too right wing I doubt we'd agree on much politically, but I totally respect someone who actually represents their constituents concerns, especially a case like this where less scrupulous politicians could accuse him of being "soft" on knife crime. Badly thought out legislation brought in due to public pressure/newspaper outrage should be brought to account by all politicians, unfortunately I imagine Desmond Swayne is in a minority (from both sides of the house). 

Tasky, I really don't quite know where I am on this. I certainly don't think assault rifles should be legal, and I can see if you follow that logic then swords and zombie knives should come into the discussion (at close range a knife is more effective than a gun). On the other hand I nearly always carry a knife as it is really handy for cutting things. Unlike you I have stabbed someone.....but only myself through bad knife handling (on that score chisels are far more dangerous).


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## Sheffield Tony (29 Jun 2018)

custard":1tqqn6ov said:


> > Sajid Javid
> > I am glad that my right hon. Friend, like me, thinks that the Bill is excellent. I can give him that assurance. As I talk a bit more about the Bill, it will become clear that the right types of reasonable defence will absolutely be in place. For example, knife sales to businesses and for other legitimate use will remain unaffected.



Ah yes, it doesn't apply to delivery to business adresses, so trade are OK, hobbyists and DIYers on the other hand might still have a problem. Of course, government don't care a lot about hobbyists and DIYers - people doing something for themselves doesn't create employment or bring in tax revenue. When I'm in my most cynical mood I wonder if that is not a significant part of what building regs are about.

Fundamentally, I agree with what Tasky wrote. We should not be looking to ban anything that might be used to cause an injury, but to try and understand, and fix, whatever is going wrong that some people think stabbing one another or throwing acid is a reasonable response to anything. Banning can't work - a kitchen knife that can to cut up meat will of course be capable of doing serious harm to another person. Can we stop the bad guys getting a kitchen knife ? Are under 18's not allowed to cook from raw ingredients ? I thought we were trying to educate people to do more of that ? 

I heard that the porn industry was being pressured into some sort of scheme for age verification for on-line purchases; if that can be done, can't it work for less sensitive things like alcohol, bladed items, acids etc ?


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## custard (29 Jun 2018)

Woody2Shoes":3c1ixcjr said:


> Well done Custard!



All I did was follow ProfChris's guidelines, I paraphrased his suggested letter and sourced the email address from the link he provided. He's the one who should be congratulated!


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## custard (29 Jun 2018)

This legislation, properly structured to safeguard legitimate usage, has my support.

It would help restrict the availability of the ludicrously intimidating weapons that appeal to the feeble minded and easily led. There's a reason this is the best remembered scene from Crocodile Dundee, 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQrLPtr_ikE


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## Tasky (29 Jun 2018)

Paddy Roxburgh":2mv8jm1a said:


> Tasky, I really don't quite know where I am on this. I certainly don't think assault rifles should be legal, and I can see if you follow that logic then swords and zombie knives should come into the discussion


In the UK... Dunno. Most of the time licenced people can be trusted with their shooters. 
The only thing the firearm bans have done is take away legal owners' ability to shoot certain weapons. Those who could get a pistol from some dodgy source still can get those same pistols from those same dodgy sources. 

FYI - It's only curved katanas that were banned, since cheap wallhangers were most often (in relative terms) used in crimes. Straight bladed cruciform Broadswords and similar Oakeshott types are still perfectly legal... because it was yet another knee-jerk reaction ban. 



Paddy Roxburgh":2mv8jm1a said:


> Unlike you I have stabbed someone.....but only myself through bad knife handling (on that score chisels are far more dangerous).


I am, however, trained in how to hurt people with a wide variety of weapons... and a hobby knife or chisel would be quite far down on my list of choices. 



Sheffield Tony":2mv8jm1a said:


> Can we stop the bad guys getting a kitchen knife ? Are under 18's not allowed to cook from raw ingredients ? I thought we were trying to educate people to do more of that ?


Again, age is not a problem - There's very little stopping your under-18 from simply nicking a legally owned weapon/bladed-product, from a shop, a shed, a kitchen drawer, a workplace, or any number of places with legitimate ownership. Making it illegal to deliver to a residential address won't even impact the consumers - It will just cost the retailers and some couriers a shedload of business.


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## Brandlin (29 Jun 2018)

RogerP":209sylke said:


> RogerP":209sylke said:
> 
> 
> > Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).
> ...



So you follow up by pointing out his error, and suggesting he reads the bill before commenting.

Then bringing this reply to the attention of the 'other party'. And potentially phone the local paper... might be a few column inches in it and stimulates some debate on
1) the responsibility of elected MPs
2) the Bill itself..


Still waiting on a response from my MP


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## t8hants (29 Jun 2018)

If the weapon of choice isn't readily available, but of course to the crim' it will be you simply change weapon.
A ban is the politicians method of choice, it sounds effective and proactive, affects thousands of law abiding citizens, has little or no effect on criminal activity and when it proves to be ineffective isn't the fault of the politico's, but those naughty crim's who won't behave.

It is also considerably cheaper than try to sort out the sociological problems that mean teenagers and younger are willing to stab each other in the first place. It isn't the availability of knives that have caused the 77 homicides, but the willingness of the perpetrators to commit the act.

Sadly I have no faith in the words of assurance given and will wait for them to make a complete hash of things.


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## RogerP (29 Jun 2018)

t8hants":2dof1p83 said:


> If the weapon of choice isn't readily available, but of course to the crim' it will be you simply change weapon.
> A ban is the politicians method of choice, it sounds effective and proactive, affects thousands of law abiding citizens, has little or no effect on criminal activity and when it proves to be ineffective isn't the fault of the politico's, but those naughty crim's who won't behave.
> 
> It is also considerably cheaper than try to sort out the sociological problems that mean teenagers and younger are willing to stab each other in the first place. It isn't the availability of knives that have caused the 77 homicides, but the willingness of the perpetrators to commit the act.
> ...


I expect most of the stabbings were booze fueled.


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## thetyreman (29 Jun 2018)

how much do you want a bet that banning it outright would actually increase knife crime?


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## Andy K (2 Jul 2018)

Here is the text from a well known mail order supplier of quality knives (and may other lovely things) that I received recently. There will be ways around this badly written law even if it is enacted without change.




> The Offensive Weapons Bill 2018
> We’re still here!
> 
> On 20th June 2018, the Government published its Offensive Weapons Bill – the first step to creating a new Act. The provisions set out in the Bill will become law when the Act is passed. That hasn’t happened, yet, but it will.
> ...


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## loftyhermes (2 Jul 2018)

I emailed my MP (Ben Bradley) on Friday afternoon (2.15pm) and was surprised to receive a reply by letter in Saturday mornings post, sent by second class post.


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## aesmith (7 Jul 2018)

Response from my MP ..


> _Dear Tony
> 
> Thank you for contacting me about the Offensive Weapons Bill.
> 
> ...


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## aesmith (7 Jul 2018)

Sheffield Tony":2cijngju said:


> Ah yes,* it doesn't apply to delivery to business adresses*, so trade are OK, hobbyists and DIYers on the other hand might still have a problem. Of course, government don't care a lot about hobbyists and DIYers - people doing something for themselves doesn't create employment or bring in tax revenue. When I'm in my most cynical mood I wonder if that is not a significant part of what building regs are about.


That's not strictly correct by my reading of the draft. There's an absolute prohibition on delivery to residential addresses ..


> _15 (2)The seller commits an offence if, for the purposes of supplying the bladed product to the buyer, the seller delivers the bladed product, or arranges for its delivery, to residential premises. _



As I read it, delivery to business addresses is permitted, but only by a courier who carries out age verification before handing the object over, ie it is permitted only if a number of conditions are complied with, two of which are ..


> _(5) Condition B is that when the package containing the article was dispatched by the seller, it was clearly marked to indicate—
> (a) that it contained an article with a blade or which was sharply pointed (as the case may be), and
> (b) that, when finally delivered, it should only be delivered into the hands of a person aged 18 or over.
> (6) Condition C is that the seller took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to ensure that, when finally delivered, the package would be delivered into the hands of a person aged 18 or over. _



I don't know how many, if any, couriers operate a service where they carry out age verification at point of delivery.


----------



## rafezetter (8 Jul 2018)

AndyT":3aytfafr said:


> I think it's an utterly stupid idea from politicians who think that criminals read up on all the laws and obey them.
> 
> This bill will not stop bad people injuring anyone. Bringing about social and economic conditions in which people don't need to commit crimes could be the answer, but it needs a level of dedication and wisdom which our government and legislature lack.



Or make the punishments so terrible that we go back to a system whereby criminals feared them, intead of the holiday farms they have now. Utopia is a nice and commendable idea, but many in society are far too stupid to be trusted with such altruistic ideals or understand a lot of crimes are not necessary, but they do them anyway. Methadone programs having had only a minor impact on heroin related crimes is just one example.

Prisons for such offences should make the offender leave the court room screaming for mercy.


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## rafezetter (8 Jul 2018)

phil.p":3t3ua4u9 said:


> "there's no argument, knives are dangerous and need to be controlled". So we stop totally innocent people carrying knives and see people stabbed to death by scrotes with a screwdriver. I wonder what they'll use when we ban the sale of screwdrivers? :?
> (I've carried a knife since I was eight years old and don't see why I should stop now.)



Sharpened umbrellas - which was the argument used by my brief when a copper tried to get me sent to jail for taking a knife to work in my bag for reasons that were extremely valid and life preserving, not my own, my GF tried to suicide with it that morning.

He claimed I was going to walk around stabbing people despite no previous history, and my brief told the judge the policeman could do that with his umbrella should he choose. One of the few times the argument "guns don't kill people, people kill people" seemed to work. Case was dismissed.


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## Rorschach (8 Jul 2018)

rafezetter":cbaddc9y said:


> AndyT":cbaddc9y said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's an utterly stupid idea from politicians who think that criminals read up on all the laws and obey them.
> ...



Criminals have never feared punishment.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2018)

My mother was a nurse in Plymouth in the early '50s. One of her patients was a man brought in from Dartmoor prison who had spent most of his adult life in gaol. He told her the one and only thing that had detered him from doing anything criminal in his past was the prospect of being birched.


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## ScaredyCat (8 Jul 2018)

My MP didn't reply at all.

I suspect he was worried about this bill though because he got caught repeatedly stabbing female office staff with his man sword. 



.


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## Tasky (9 Jul 2018)

rafezetter":27w106pn said:


> Or make the punishments so terrible that we go back to a system whereby criminals feared them, intead of the holiday farms they have now.


People are not disuaded by what _might_ happen _if_ they get caught, so much as the certainty of getting caught. The number of people executed throughout history is testament to that.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Jul 2018)

I got a reply -

Dear Mr Pascoe,
Thank you very much for your email and for sharing your concerns about the Offensive Weapons Bill.
George has been contacted by other constituents about the same matter so he has written to Victoria Atkins MP, Parliamentary under Secretary of State for Crime, Safeguarding and Vulnerability at the Home Office to ask for her thoughts.
As soon as we receive a response I will be back in touch.
Kind regards,
Amanda

Amanda Cowan
Office of George Eustice MP
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA


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## Blockplane (10 Jul 2018)

Anyone else get this this today ? :-

You recently signed the petition “Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)”:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/222776

The UK Government has introduced the Offensive Weapons Bill to change some of the laws about offensive weapons, including acid, knives and guns.

A group of MPs working on a Public Bill Committee are looking closely at the Offensive Weapons Bill to see what the changes would mean.

To help them with their work, they'd like to hear from you.

The Bill covers three types of weapon – acid, knives and offensive weapons, and firearms.

The key changes that the Bill would make are:

• a new offence of possessing a corrosive substance in a public place;

• a new offence of selling certain harmful corrosive products to under 18s;

• new restrictions on online sales of bladed articles and corrosive products, including restrictions on deliveries to residential premises;

• a new offence of possessing certain offensive weapons (the weapons concerned are already subject to restrictions on their sale, manufacture and importation); and

• reclassifying certain firearms as “prohibited weapons” under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968.

You can find out more about the Public Bill Committee and how to have your say here:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/news ... pons-bill/

The sooner you send in your submission, the more time the Committee will have to look at it.

The Committee is expected to meet between Tuesday 17 July and Thursday 13 September 2018. It can't look at any new information after 13 September.

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament


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## Seiken (10 Jul 2018)

Yes I have received this email after signing the petition, I've also emailed my MP but as its Michael Gove I'm not holding my breath for any action on that front.


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## skelph (10 Jul 2018)

I received the same message after signing the petition but haven't had time to look further into it. Emailing our MP looks to have been a waste of time, so far only response I've had has been an automatic reply acknowledging receipt of my message.


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## n0legs (10 Jul 2018)

rafezetter":3ur7bj84 said:


> taking a knife to work in my bag .




I've got to ask, and I doubt I'm not the only one wondering, how did an officer of the law become aware you were carrying a knife??

When I was on the tools many times I would find many unsuitable items on my person in public places and the only good reason for having them was the fact I was in my overalls or work wear. The course of action on these occasions was to keep the item out of sight.

Do you have a shifty demeanour about you :lol:


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## Brandlin (11 Jul 2018)

Reply from my MP...



> Thank you for contacting me regarding the forthcoming Offensive Weapons Bill.
> 
> Labour generally welcomes the introduction of this Bill. It is the first of many steps in acknowledging the growing epidemic of violence seen in our metropolitan and urban communities. But putting forward strongly worded documents will not help our police officers tackle this growing problem. Following eight years of austerity, and a loss of 21,000 officers, we can see a police force stretched to the limit: putting public safety at risk.
> 
> ...



Completely missing the point so i shall be badgering him again. I'm not interested in his party political line and views on the last 8 years - we shall keep party politics out of the debate.

but on the plus side the more "letters to the Minister" the better to get the issue aired and improved.


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## Fergal (11 Jul 2018)

At least you got a reply from your MP. All I got was the automated response. I won't say who he is, but I guess he's too busy planning his bid to oust the PM to deal with his pleb constituents.


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## Brandlin (11 Jul 2018)

Fergal":xvvmpcyx said:


> At least you got a reply from your MP. All I got was the automated response. I won't say who he is, but I guess he's too busy planning his bid to oust the PM to deal with his pleb constituents.



As MY elected representative in parliament i reasonably expect him to deal professionally with a reasonable concern - not to respond with a glib party soundbite.

so... this was my response.



> Mr Hanson
> 
> Thank you for your reply to my query.
> 
> ...



I shall keep you all informed


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## Sheffield Tony (11 Jul 2018)

I too got only an automated response from my reality TV "star" MP. I've also e-mailed the HCA (Heritage Crafts Association) and am told Robin Wood is on to it - as a woodworker and seller of tools mail-order, I guess it rather matters to him. It will b****r up a lot of heritage crafts that are kept alive by hobbyists and small businesses working as sole traders from home. I posted on the APTGW (Association of Pole Lathe turners and Green Woodworkers) site, and got surprisingly little interest - 0 responses. It is pretty quiet on there these days though.

Weekend before last was our town festival. My contribution is to drive a decorated up truck in the parade with some kids on the back to the park. To take off the decorations to avoid them getting lost on the bypass on the way home, I took my Swiss army knife. Going into the music arena at the park I walked past the desks where they were searching handbags for knives in as part of new heightened security measures. Only when I was in did I stop to think what I had in my pocket !


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## Tasky (11 Jul 2018)

Sheffield Tony":33hhly72 said:


> I took my Swiss army knife. Going into the music arena at the park I walked past the desks where they were searching handbags for knives in as part of new heightened security measures. Only when I was in did I stop to think what I had in my pocket !


As long as the blade is under 3", and folds without locking it should be perfectly legal, no?

At any given time, I have a Leatherman Squirt on my keys, a Swiss Army card in my ID wallet and a 1" micro version of a larger lock knife. The latter two are a matched set and was very first thing I bought from the NAAFI back when I joined up - Good luck taking those off me!!


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## Brandlin (11 Jul 2018)

I've never understood the non locking bit. A lock knife that prevents folding up by accident in use or being carried is far safer for the user. Or am I misunderstanding the term 'lock'?


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## Sheffield Tony (11 Jul 2018)

Perfectly legal does not necessarily imply acceptable in a music venue, I suspect. 

I do use a couple of locking knives, on a "Swisstool" multitool, and a flexcut carving jack. They _are_ much safer for the user. I suppose the reason they are prohibited is that they are also safer to the user when stabbing people. Mind you, when I have one of those in the car with me, I usually also have a choice of three or four axes ...


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## Tasky (11 Jul 2018)

Brandlin":7fbvauh8 said:


> A lock knife that prevents folding up by accident in use or being carried is far safer for the user.


You assume the user is not doing anything wrong. As mentioned, it also means it won't close up on your hand if you try and stab someone, which is why a non-locking one is deemed to be so risky that no-one will try stabbing with them.... or fewer people, anyway... whatever drives the crime stats down and makes the party look good.


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## Harbo (11 Jul 2018)

I got pulled up by the police for carrying a tiny locking Al Mar knife which had a 35mm Blade.
It was attached to my key ring and I’d forgotten all about it.
My 75mm folding Swiss Army penknife, which I’d left at home, would have been ok!
It was in the Houses of Parliament, escorted to a side room, lectured, warned and sent on my way.
Luckily they didn’t confiscate it.







Rod


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## colonel-cueball (14 Jul 2018)

No shock given that ALL political parties parachuted in those who have ZERO life experience, ALL of them now did politics at university, became paid activists, then researchers, aides, candidates and often parachuted into safe seats where they burble the party line - That goes for the Tories, Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, Greens, Plaid, DUP etc etc etc.

The days of political candidates coming from a military or senior management or senior trade position are long gone, libertarianism is seemingly a dirty word, and successive home secretaries (probably egged on by the civil service) have become increasingly authoritarian in viewpoint. I'm seriously wondering why I left Ontario to come back here....with this nonsense we are well and truly heading for the nanny state.

Its a socially unacceptable term but I'm going to say it anyway "profiling" - PACE needs to be binned and something that sits between it and the old Sus laws needs to be instated, with the law quite clear that those most likely to commit an offence are to be stopped and searched, along with the riot act being brought back into force. Letting the great unwashed riot because one of their wannabe dealers/yardies/jihadis etc was stopped and searched by the police, pulled a weapon and was shot dead should never have been tolerated. 

The 2011 riots should have resulted in the Army being deployed in a public order role (they are trained in that role) to quell the riots with live ammunition being issued, along with watercannon (Refusing to have them is handwringing of the worst sort). 

Instead we had the Vicar's daughter who was too worried about losing her chance to do a poor impersonation of the Iron Lady (more like the Zinc Lady - soft as soap and ultra reactive). Resulting in hooligans being allowed to run riot for days on end while the police and politicians wrung their hands over what to do that wouldn't be seen as being "nasty to the poor deprived souls", many of whom were and are part of a criminal underclass.

Of course though, they have to be "seen to be doing something - its all over the papers and facebook, must do something to keep the 'people' happy, election could be any minute"

Also the demand for "women only" candidate lists has made the issue far worse, nearly all of them are vapid brainless fools, whose view of tools and making things is "filthy dirty activities done by pervy old men in smelly, dirty sheds, better with all that old rubbish tossed in the bin and turn it into a lovely floral summerhouse that the baybeees can play in"

Anyways rant over.....


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## sammy.se (14 Jul 2018)

I disagree with the live ammunition part though.
You mentioned America - a very 'law and order' country, with liberties, yet ridiculous crime rates.

Also, people assume crime only comes from knives/yardies etc. But never call out all the middle class, rich white people buying weed, cocaine and fueling these crimes... When was the last time they were stopped and searched and read 'the riot act'?

And all the legal loop holes (that, let's face it, rich white people use) which fuels injustice in society? And reduces the number of police in our streets. In Walthamstow, north east london, there's been two shootings in the last week. One was at 3pm. No fear of police catching them and no fear of significant jail time.

That said - there is a big problem with people having a sense of entitlement, something for nothing, in this country, and nobody has a solution.

We need technocratic politicians, not career ones.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## colonel-cueball (14 Jul 2018)

I didn't actually mention USA, I mentioned Ontario, meaning Ontario Canada, Which despite being adjacent to the USA has vastly different gun laws, closer to ours pre-Dunblane with differences. They have similar issues with inner city shootings and knifings, yet their politicians don't dream up these half baked authoritarian schemes.

I'm firmly of the opinion that everything bar Heroin and Crystal Meth should be legalised and taxed accordingly, meth and heroin dealing even at low levels should incur a whole life sentence - ideally on the island of South Georgia


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## Paddy Roxburgh (15 Jul 2018)

colonel-cueball":2kccetog said:


> The 2011 riots should have resulted in the Army being deployed in a public order role (they are trained in that role) to quell the riots with live ammunition being issued
> 
> Also the demand for "women only" candidate lists has made the issue far worse, nearly all of them are vapid brainless fools, whose view of tools and making things is "filthy dirty activities done by pervy old men in smelly, dirty sheds, better with all that old rubbish tossed in the bin and turn it into a lovely floral summerhouse that the baybeees can play in"
> .



OMFG, so in order for me to get my chisels posted we need the army shooting civilians on the street, make sure "brainless" women have no power and even hate babies???? Well I was hoping for some sensible amendments to the proposed legislation, but if that's the trade off I'll drive to the shop to pick up my chisels.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2018)

Back on tack - I suspect the way couriers treat any legislation will cause as many or more problems than the legislation itself, they will try to safeguard themselves from any prosecution and overkill will be rife.


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## colonel-cueball (15 Jul 2018)

Paddy Roxburgh":3rpsr27z said:


> colonel-cueball":3rpsr27z said:
> 
> 
> > The 2011 riots should have resulted in the Army being deployed in a public order role (they are trained in that role) to quell the riots with live ammunition being issued
> ...



Few points - 

1) Rioters who were started at least one massive building fire and placed a lot of innocent people's lives at risk (would you still have been so defending of them had large numbers of innocent people been killed if that blaze had spread to neighbouring properties?), were running completely feral and had no regard for the rule of law and were attacking police, I didn't say shoot, but put the option on the table - having squaddies point loaded weapons at a mob tends to clarify the situation quite well. 
Are you suggesting we deal with large rioting mobs by sending the Army/Police in unarmed and unable to defend themselves? 
Also you do realise that the govt had an army unit on 12 hours notice to move if the police had not been able to quell the riots? That the army's default public order weapon was and still probably is pickaxe handles and then live ammunition if the situation gets out of control?
You do also realise that the police were using vehicle at speed to chase pedestrian rioters down streets - which if someone had fallen would have resulted in them being run over? - Jankel vehicles, that they were discharging CS riot gas that can and does kill anyone with a respiratory condition in an extremely painful manner? Personally the bullet sounds more effective.

2) I disagree with "positive discrimination", I fully believe in a meritocracy, the problem with all women candidate lists is that they do not have enough decent candidates so whoever gets parachuted into a safe seat, resulting in a large number without a clue and ready to support whatever halfbaked idea they see on Facebook, Mumsnet and any other "social media" with no critical thinking of its enforceability, impact on those obeying the law etc

3) It was a dig out about the brainless nonsense some witter. 

4) People have been having children for thousands of years, yet some think it entitles them to special treatment and immunity from criticism. Along with "think of the children" being their reason to justify anything authoritarian that stops adults from pursuing a legititmate activity. 

My last on that


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## thick_mike (15 Jul 2018)

colonel-cueball":1kt8gsqw said:


> My last on that



Thank God for that!


----------



## mrpercysnodgrass (19 Jul 2018)

just received this email from the Home Office which clarifies the situation a little more.

Dear Paul Davis,

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)”.

Government responded:

The Bill prevents knives which cause serious harm from being delivered to residential addresses but does not stop delivery of bladed items and knives to business premises or businesses run from home.

Retailers online and offline are prohibited from selling knives to under 18s. Evidence from online test purchase operations conducted over the last decade, where online shopping has become increasingly common, shows that the majority of sampled online retailers failed to have effective age verification procedures in place. The failure rate for online test purchases of knives has not significantly improved over this period.

The Government has therefore sought to improve these outcomes by conducting a public consultation and introducing legislation that will place more stringent controls on online sellers of knives.

Following concerns expressed in the consultation, certain defences were introduced into the Bill that has been published. The prohibition on the delivery of knives to residential addresses is now limited to those knives that can cause serious injury. If ordered online these knives will need to be collected from a place where age verification can take place, either by the purchaser or their representative. 

In respect of other bladed items and knives, the Bill provides a number of defences around the prohibition of delivery to a residential address. For example, deliveries to business premises, including where a business is run from home, would not be affected by the prohibition placed in the Bill on delivery to a residential address. Other items that would be exempt from the prohibition on delivery to a residential address would include encased razor blades; knives with a blade of less than 3 inches; knives that cannot cause serious injury, for example table knives; bladed products designed or manufactured to specifications from the buyer such as bespoke knives. There are also exemptions for bladed products that are used for sporting purposes, such as fencing swords and bladed products that would be used for re-enactment activities.

Home Office


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## Rorschach (19 Jul 2018)

Seems like there is an exemption for everything there.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Jul 2018)

Which 
1/ will make it unworkable in reality, and
2/ leave couriers not knowing whether they're coming or going.


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## Sawdust=manglitter (19 Jul 2018)

What would stop anyone just making up a company name and get anything delivered to home, I can't see couriers checking whether the company is legitimate or is based at that address!?


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Jul 2018)

Sawdust=manglitter":g74mg5fg said:


> What would stop anyone just making up a company name and get anything delivered to home, I can't see couriers checking whether the company is legitimate or is based at that address!?


 :lol: see 1/


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## ScaredyCat (19 Jul 2018)

colonel-cueball":1yfv22nl said:


> with live ammunition being issued



Never going to happen. 

All they need are water cannon with dye packs. Round them up later.




.


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## Brandlin (19 Jul 2018)

The only part of that response from the home office that gives me any hope is the bit that says it only applies to blades of more than 3 inches. 

Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok, and the impact for legitimate hobbyists with no business address is almost immediately nil.


----------



## DTR (19 Jul 2018)

Brandlin":10fs0uue said:


> The only part of that response from the home office that gives me any hope is the bit that says it only applies to blades of more than 3 inches.
> 
> Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok, and the impact for legitimate hobbyists with no business address is almost immediately nil.



I suspect the bodgers may disagree; axes, drawshaves, froes etc. 

Funnily enough, my work computer blocks this thread on the grounds of "offensive weapons".


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## Brandlin (19 Jul 2018)

DTR":1qf7zp2b said:


> Brandlin":1qf7zp2b said:
> 
> 
> > The only part of that response from the home office that gives me any hope is the bit that says it only applies to blades of more than 3 inches.
> ...




True... 

I was looking for some positivity  it seemed less bad than feared... though in my defence i did say 'nearly all' and 'almost' ...


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## LeeElms (19 Jul 2018)

Still problems with planer/thicknessor blades (including sharpening services), and bandsaw blades ...


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## Seiken (19 Jul 2018)

Sawdust=manglitter":1wvj0zxz said:


> What would stop anyone just making up a company name and get anything delivered to home, I can't see couriers checking whether the company is legitimate or is based at that address!?


I was thinking of this, it seems that you can register a company name for a few pounds,it doesn't have to trade so no taxman or accounts to deal with but you've got a company registered at your address.


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## Brandlin (19 Jul 2018)

Seiken":rq29w8z2 said:


> Sawdust=manglitter":rq29w8z2 said:
> 
> 
> > What would stop anyone just making up a company name and get anything delivered to home, I can't see couriers checking whether the company is legitimate or is based at that address!?
> ...



Except for two reasons

1 we shouldn't have to do this to conduct our lawful activities
2 if it is so easy then it doesn't deter the very people the law is intended to prevent getting access to blades in the first place.

We should be arguing for better written, more effective legislation... not looking for loopholes to get us out of poorly written legislation.

The political debate about whether prohibition and restriction is the answer is not really the domain of this forum - am pretty sure we have all aspects from left to right here (and probably up and down).

What we all do deserve though is well written, understood and enacted laws.


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## Seiken (19 Jul 2018)

Brandlin":3ep30z8f said:


> Seiken":3ep30z8f said:
> 
> 
> > Sawdust=manglitter":3ep30z8f said:
> ...



And I agree, I've signed the petition - response was rubbish; written to my MP - no response. We're dealing with a government more concerned with appearance than effective, workable legislation.


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## Just4Fun (19 Jul 2018)

LeeElms":2uzmtf7l said:


> Still problems with planer/thicknessor blades (including sharpening services), and bandsaw blades ...


If a bandsaw blade comes under this legislation then why wouldn't a tenon saw?

Assuming that a hobbyist with no company or business address wants to get a bladed item via mail order, what is the proposed method to do this legally if this legislation passes?


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## Brandlin (19 Jul 2018)

Just4Fun":724dduva said:


> Assuming that a hobbyist with no company or business address wants to get a bladed item via mail order, what is the proposed method to do this legally if this legislation passes?



There currently isn't one.

hence this debate and the petition etc.


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## t8hants (19 Jul 2018)

There is an old thought that says "All Tory legislation is so sloppily written as to render it unworkable and all labour legislation so over detailed as to also render it unworkable."

Its interesting how the law abiding are constantly having their rights and privileges withdrawn or circumscribed and often suffer financial penalties way beyond any 'fine' a court of law would impose.


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## Tasky (19 Jul 2018)

Brandlin":3945a6sx said:


> Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok


A plane blade is longer than three inches, even though it's the width that does the cutting. 



t8hants":3945a6sx said:


> Its interesting how the law abiding are constantly having their rights and privileges withdrawn or circumscribed


Easy solution - Join a gang!


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## Brandlin (19 Jul 2018)

Tasky":okjcgu2p said:


> Brandlin":okjcgu2p said:
> 
> 
> > Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok


A plane blade is longer than three inches, even though it's the width that does the cutting. 

Hence why i said 'assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches'.


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## Tasky (19 Jul 2018)

Brandlin":17q2kbnv said:


> Hence why i said 'assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches'.


The law refers to 'bladed' articles, though. If it can be bent away from your favour, I'm sure it will be...


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Aug 2018)

I've had a reply from my MP's office with the reply they had from the minister concerned. 
Basically it's a load of political waffle "we must be seen to be doing something" exercise, all they are doing is making mail order suppliers ascertain the age of the recipient - with no real clue or idea how anyone is actually to do it. :?


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## skelph (7 Aug 2018)

I got the following reply from my MP which includes evidence that he asked the appropriate question, however the final words of the Secretary of State's answer do not instill any confidence in the abilities of our government ministers.

_Dear xxxxx,

Thank you for contacting me, I asked the Secretary of State directly and he assured me that defences would be in place for hobbies.



Code:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsVG7ATulU


Regards

Colin

Colin Clark MP

Member of Parliament for Gordon

House of Commons

London SW1A 0AA
_


----------



## AndyT (1 Dec 2018)

Four months or so later and this bill is still slowly progressing through the stages to become a law.
It was debated on Wednesday afternoon, and if there's nothing else on the telly you can watch the whole debate online, here

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9 ... d9992c78b6

(or read the Hansard transcription here
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2 ... eaponsBill.)

I've watched a chunk of it (admittedly with the mouse hovering over the skip button, they do go on a bit) and would offer these notes, just in case the mainstream media is too preoccupied with other parliamentary business. 

- There are lots of fine words - and I'm not saying that they are not well intentioned - along the lines of 'knives and acid are dangerous and have been used in too many attacks - so we need to do something to stop that. Too many children are carrying knives. They are already not allowed to buy them in shops so let's make it illegal for children to buy knives online. That will make the country safer.'

- Despite many amendments, there are still some areas where the bill seems to be worryingly badly drafted, and the MPs behind it don't seem to understand what effect the words in the bill will have. Despite some sensible points being made, there seems to be a huge lack of imagination to understand the range of legitimate bladed articles that are traded daily.

The Bill is defended by Victoria Atkins MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for the Home Department.

A few MPs do pitch in on behalf of their constituents to point out that the scope of the definition of a bladed article is too wide. Anna Turley, MP for Redcar, speaks up for an online seller of decorating materials who would be unable to sell wallpaper scrapers online, and is facing a £32,000 hit to his small business, which the Government is supposed to be supporting. Paul Blomfield, MP for Sheffield Central points out that the bill would allow online sale of a sword (under the exception for sporting goods) but not a Sheffield steak knife. 

So will we see wider exceptions covering tools which have blades in them? I couldn't see anything to suggest that we will.
Will there be a sensible system for people over 18 to buy bladed articles online? *No.* 

This is what Victoria Atkins had to say. 

_We are indeed introducing a blanket ban on the delivery of bladed products to homes, first because we know that test purchases online have not led to the sort of results that we have seen with retailers. We wanted to close that gap and make it clear to online retailers, some of which do not seem to understand that they currently are not allowed to sell bladed products to under-18s and should have robust measures in place to ensure that they do not. The Bill seeks to re-emphasise that, but we also want to ensure that the person picking up the knife has to go to a post office, delivery depot or local shop with such arrangements and show identification to establish that they are over 18. That is the purpose behind those measures._

So they seem to be proceeding in the hope that some procedure will magically pop up whereby you can order a plane iron from your favourite supplier, who delivers it to a Post Office, not to your home. You pop down there, show your passport or driving licence (yes, even if you are obviously far older than 18) and take away your parcel. 

Not so easy if your Post Office has been closed or doesn't have space to store hundreds of parcels for weeks on end. 
A bit awkward if your Axminster order is for a big heavy mortiser with a set of dangerous chisels. 

Ms Atkins went on to say, in an attempt to reassure Anna Turley:

_We are not banning the online sale of bladed products; we are making it clear that retailers have to conduct proper checks as to the age of the person to whom they are selling. They should be doing that at the moment anyway, and this legislation means that they will also have to package the items up as they do if they are selling online or at a distance. The point is that the package has to be labelled, and that it will then be kept at the post office or wherever before being picked up by a person with ID._

I'm no expert in parliamentary procedure, but I think this bill goes off to the House of Lords next, so there may still be a chance to inject some sanity, but I wouldn't hold your breath.


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## Eric The Viking (1 Dec 2018)

I haven't read the whole thread, but this entire nonsense is predicated on the loony idea that anyone wanting to commit knife crime will buy a new item, in this case online. In reality, mostly, existing knives will be misused.

Surely, the issue they cannot overcome is that knives and edged tools are an essential part of civilized life. 

There's a shocking story on the BBC site presently about a handgun that's been used so far in twelve (I think) shooting incidents in Birmingham. It's been identified by forensics, but police still haven't found it. 

Of course weapons circulate in the criminal underworld. As with guns, so with knives, baseball bats, and so on.

You can also make excellent blades from vehicle leaf springs, or so I believe - should we be controlling those too, and/or grinders? And what do we do about people operating illicit forges?

This is truly ridiculous legislation. Yes, I shall be writing to my MP, but then he's pretty ridiculous too, so I'm not expecting much...


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## AndyT (1 Dec 2018)

Agreed.
One MP pointed out that young people who want knives sometimes steal them, which this bill would do nothing to prevent, but the debate moved on to other matters.


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## Trevanion (1 Dec 2018)

I actually saw somebody locally have some really nasty stab wounds in the neck after they were attacked with a pencil on a night out in Cardiff. I think they also needed to surgically remove pieces of pencil from all the wounds as well. Goes to show you can attack anyone with anything really.

At the end of the day, this law isn't going to stop them obtaining knives as all the kids will have to do is go into the kitchen drawer and pull out a real butcherer. If you want them to stop growing up to be robbers and murderers, then take them out of the environment that promotes it. A lot of the reason is that kids have nothing better to do so they get pulled into the underworld.


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## Seiken (4 Dec 2018)

I have been emailing my MP since July on this, below are the last couple of emails in the email trail I have. I think it clearly shows how little thought past a PR exercise has been into into this act. The first reply didn't even address tools but was just the PR line on how it was going to stop people getting weapons, from the other emails its clear they have not considered hobbyists at all and are just keeping their fingers crossed.

_Sent: Tuesday, 21 August, 16:21
Subject: RE: Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)

Dear Mr XXX,

Thank you very much for your further email of 17 August regarding the Offensive Weapons Bill.

I have been assured by Ministers that the Bill will allow bladed products to be sent to a residential address where it is used as a business. This means that a self-employed person operating from their home would still be able to have items delivered. I welcome the fact that the prohibition is limited to bladed products that can cause serious injury by cutting. 

The measures in the Bill will not apply to table knives, screwdrivers, folding knives with a blade less than three inches in length and encased razor blades.

From: XXX
Sent: 22 August 2018 16:00

Subject: Re: Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)

Dear Mr Gove,
Thank you for your further reply, you have addressed the issue of the self employed working from a residential address however in my original email I also raised the issue of the many thousands of hobbyists who rely on purchasing tools by post that are too specialist to be kept by high street shops. What provision has been considered to enable them to continue?

From: GOVE, Michael 
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 4:57:36 PM
To:XXX
Subject: RE: Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232) 

Dear XXX,

Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay in my response to your email of 22 August.

I understand that the Bill will make it a criminal offence for any bladed product sold online to be sent to a residential premise or to a locker. A bladed product is any article that has a blade which is capable of causing serious injury to a person by cutting the skin. 

I have been informed that a bladed product would therefore not include table knives, butter knives, disposable plastic knives or things like screwdrivers. A bladed product does not include encased razor blades or knives with a folding blade of less than 3 inches (e.g. a pocket knife). 

A bladed product, however, might include bread knives, steak knives, cut throat razors, axes, swords, machete’s, some camping/bush-craft knives, some garden implements and DIY tools – anything that has a blade and is capable of causing serious injury. 

It will be for the court to decide in any prosecution whether the item in question is a bladed article capable of causing serious injury._


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## Tasky (4 Dec 2018)

AndyT":22z6zezo said:


> One MP pointed out that young people who want knives sometimes steal them, which this bill would do nothing to prevent, but the debate moved on to other matters.


MPs have already debated this point over how most gun crime was committed using firearms already obtained illegally..... I can't see this being any different. 

"anything that has a blade and is capable of causing serious injury"
Being of similar design to the medieval polearms with which I have a measure of proficiency, I could cause some pretty effin' serious injuries with a boating oar... which does have a blade. I've also cut someone's skin (technically torn) with just a punch, due to friction but in the same manner a blunt blade does.


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## dynax (4 Dec 2018)

it's the women i feel sorry for, what are they going to use for hat pins on ladies day at ascot :lol:


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## ruralpragmatist (4 Dec 2018)

Another fantastically thought out piece of legislation. This green and pleasant land is going to get extremely overgrown as I am sure most garden maintenance equipment would also fall under this ridiculous rule. Alright they may sell a limited selection in the DIY stores but they're not the best. Also this flies in the face of the environmental bandwagon as everyone will not have to travel to purchase bladed items rather than one van delivering many items. Imagine also all the people now having to travel around cities on public transport carrying bladed items as that's the only way they can now get them back to their residential address!


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## Trevanion (4 Dec 2018)

ruralpragmatist":l6qbha67 said:


> Imagine also all the people now having to travel around cities on public transport carrying bladed items as that's the only way they can now get them back to their residential address!



This is especially true if you've only got the one pickup location in the area. Any would be criminal youths that were desperate for a knife would just wait for someone to go in and come out with a package since they know the only reason people go in there and come out with a package is that it's a knife or something similar, so they follow the person a bit then mug them for the knife.

To be honest, whenever I've seen pictures of "the weapon in question" on the news that's been used by a youth to stab/kill someone, I think most of them have been mammy's veggie chopper, not a giant machete or axe.


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## GrahamF (4 Dec 2018)

I also wrote to my MP and obtained a reply saying he was in favour of the new Act so no joy there. On reading the Bill, there's an obvious exclusion for those carrying out (or appearing to) any business from home . When ordering anything to be posted from tool suppliers to home change your name from Mr Joe Bloggs to Joe Bloggs Joinery or similar. As it happens, I already have a trading name and trade invoices for years, doing boat maintenance (although very little these days) based at home.

_OFFENSIVE WEAPONS BILL Section 15

Delivery of bladed products to residential premises etc

(5) In subsection (2) “residential premises” means premises used solely for
residential purposes.

(6) The circumstances where premises are not residential premises for the
purposes of that subsection include, in particular, where a person carries on a
business from the premises._


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## Just4Fun (5 Dec 2018)

GrahamF":eddqwt8y said:


> _(6) The circumstances where premises are not residential premises for the
> purposes of that subsection include, in particular, where a person carries on a
> business from the premises._


Interesting that it doesn't say that the tools have to be for the business. So you may be restricted in the tools you can have delivered for your woodworking hobby but the self-employed childrens' party clown next door can order whatever lethal weapon he likes.


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## GrahamF (5 Dec 2018)

Yes but, lets say you want something from Axminster, order it in the name ********* Joinery. Build up a file of invoices from various suppliers in that name and you have established in other's eyes that you're working from or at home.

Unfortunately, it still leaves the problem of suppliers finding a carrier who is willing to confirm age on delivery but I bet that won't be too much of a problem, judging by the way electronic signatures are scribbled now.


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## DTR (5 Dec 2018)

GrahamF":3ap1epma said:


> Yes but, lets say you want something from Axminster, order it in the name ********* Joinery. Build up a file of invoices from various suppliers in that name and *you have established in other's eyes that you're working from or at home*.



I'm just wondering if this may have other implications? E.g. will the local council get upset at a "business" running from a residential address? What about the taxman, or house insurance, or.......?


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## GrahamF (5 Dec 2018)

You worry too much. Never had a problem with local authority, even when genuinely working from home as it's allowed as long as not creating a nuisance, I used to get tax allowance on one room as office against heating, lighting, rates etc. For the bits and pieces we're buying for hobby, taxman interest is highly unlikely as most purchases are card sales rather than credit accounts which along with cash sales is what they mainly look at when doing an inspection. Insurance isn't a problem as you wouldn't actually be carrying out a business, just bending paperwork. I've been carrying out work at and from home for 50 or so years and never had a problem with anyone.


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## Tasky (5 Dec 2018)

DTR":h38pp9op said:


> I'm just wondering if this may have other implications? E.g. will the local council get upset at a "business" running from a residential address? What about the taxman, or house insurance, or.......?


Plausible deniability - You could argue that it's just the name of your blog or YouTube channel and you only get stuff sent in that name to help build awareness of your hobbyist activities. 
See, if you were a business, you'd be paying for everything with a named business account, and charging money for stuff you made, no?


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## Sheffield Tony (5 Dec 2018)

> _OFFENSIVE WEAPONS BILL Section 15
> 
> Delivery of bladed products to residential premises etc
> 
> ...



Now, how is this going to work ? Who is going to police what is a solely residential address, and what isn't ? Does the tool seller need to judge, the delivery driver, or who ? How do you tell a hobbyist from a sole trader working out of his home address, on the basis of the information a seller or courier has access to ?


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## DTR (5 Dec 2018)

GrahamF":16o3k27c said:


> You worry too much.......





Tasky":16o3k27c said:


> Plausible deniability



Fair do’s 

Kind Regards,
Dave
Customer Relations Dept.
Smiling Monkey Industries


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## GrahamF (5 Dec 2018)

Sheffield Tony":2ypeiut6 said:


> > Now, how is this going to work ? Who is going to police what is a solely residential address, and what isn't ? Does the tool seller need to judge, the delivery driver, or who ? How do you tell a hobbyist from a sole trader working out of his home address, on the basis of the information a seller or courier has access to ?



OK, I'll give you an example. My old outboard engine packed up and I wanted a new 2 stroke one, which can't be sold for leisure use within the EU. I had to provide the retailer and national distributor with copies of invoices from marine trade suppliers to prove I am a commercial user and I had to sign a declaration (to cover their backsides) that use would be solely commercial and wouldn't resell to anyone who isn't.

Suppliers of bladed items will need to cover their backsides or face what could be stiff fines so, it appears they have two options - 1. deliver to click and collect locations such as Argos where age can be verified or, 2. satisfy themselves that your address is business premises or, you are working from home.

Chances are, everyone here has (or has access to) a printer. Think constructively, letterheads are very easy to produce and, Joe Bloggs Joiner/Cabinet maker/Plumber/Painter etc. is an accurate description of what you do, even though just as a hobby.


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## Tasky (6 Dec 2018)

GrahamF":3he3cggu said:


> Think constructively, letterheads are very easy to produce and, Joe Bloggs Joiner/Cabinet maker/Plumber/Painter etc. is an accurate description of what you do, even though just as a hobby.


"Lifestyle woodworker"?


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## Just4Fun (6 Dec 2018)

GrahamF":3h4t6w01 said:


> Joe Bloggs Joiner/Cabinet maker/Plumber/Painter etc. is an accurate description of what you do, even though just as a hobby.


That might be true and you might argue that as justification for a letterhead, but to enter the same information in the "Business name" field of an online order form could be a lie if you really don't trade. Does the proposed legislation have anything to say about customers who incorrectly pass themselves off as a company or business/sole trader?


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## Tasky (6 Dec 2018)

Just4Fun":205avo1b said:


> but to enter the same information in the "Business name" field of an online order form could be a lie if you really don't trade.


Don't trade, then. Just spend a few quid to register the company name.


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## GrahamF (6 Dec 2018)

Just4Fun":33qkmfq5 said:


> Does the proposed legislation have anything to say about customers who incorrectly pass themselves off as a company or business/sole trader?



Not that I'm aware of, unless I've missed something, the legislation is aimed at sellers, not buyers. It's not an offense for you to order (say) a knife or, take delivery of it but, it's an offence for the seller not to take all laid down steps to ensure you meet the qualifications for the purchase and up to the you to convince them - as far as I'm concerned by any means available. Living in N Wales, I've no intention of driving many miles to pick up a chisel or a planer blade.


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## GrahamF (6 Dec 2018)

Tasky":j7j9dja4 said:


> Just4Fun":j7j9dja4 said:
> 
> 
> > but to enter the same information in the "Business name" field of an online order form could be a lie if you really don't trade.
> ...



You don't need to register any trading name of form a company. Obviously, some people are worried about lying but who among us haven't at some time tried to screw trade prices out of electrical or plumbers merchants and the like by pretending to be trade?


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## Tasky (6 Dec 2018)

GrahamF":c1dh82l8 said:


> but who among us haven't at some time tried to screw trade prices out of electrical or plumbers merchants and the like by pretending to be trade?


Err..... me?

Felt sexually attracted to mice, sure. 
Set fire to some great public building, sure. 
Never tried to pretend I was trade, though...


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