# Workshop Windows - casement (making). WIP Now.



## Dibs-h (4 Dec 2009)

Chaps

I've settled on traditional casement windows for the workshop. As the windows is 1350 (w) x 1100 (h) - I feel that it would look better with 3 sections as opposed to my original notion of 2.

Now if it had say 2 side openers with the middle one fixed - and the middle DG pane was glazed direct to the frame - that's how I thought it would be, but perusing the web and seeing pictures of them - one gets the impression that the fixed pane appears no different from the outside than an opening pane - i.e. I get the impression that an opener has been made and then "fixed" into the frame.

Would this be "correct" or am I p*ssing in the wind?

I was thinking of the middle one being an opener and the outer 2 being fixed - but think that the middle one being fixed and outer 2 being openers "feels" better\correct.

Cheers

Dibs


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## Steve Maskery (4 Dec 2009)

Traditional casement windows have the frame and then a casement, either fixed or opening. Of course it's easier and cheaper to have just the openers as casements and the fixed lights having the glazing mounted directly into the frame. But this looks awful and it's what the vast majority of UPVC makers do.

It just depends on how much trouble and expense you want to go to. But remember, you only want to do the job once! 

S


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## Dibs-h (4 Dec 2009)

Steve Maskery":2mzkw01r said:


> Traditional casement windows have the frame and then a casement, either fixed or opening.


That's what they looked like to me. Been loooking at a fair few Google Images and the lack of hinges seemed to confirm that it was a fixed casement. Just wanted to double check!


Steve Maskery":2mzkw01r said:


> Of course it's easier and cheaper to have just the openers as casements and the fixed lights having the glazing mounted directly into the frame. But this looks awful and it's what the vast majority of UPVC makers do.


I agree - it doesn't look right.


Steve Maskery":2mzkw01r said:


> It just depends on how much trouble and expense you want to go to. But remember, you only want to do the job once!
> 
> S



Once If I can help it!

Was thinking of getting the timber for them this weekend - but think it would be better to knock up some sort of "bench" to assemble them (softwood with mdf top) and also read up and make sure I've got it right in my head in regard to the construction.

Thanks.


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## Steve Maskery (4 Dec 2009)

Here is one I prepared earlier.
Although I do have a spindle moulder (up for sale - any takers?) the tooling I have is more suited to cabinetry than joinery. I decided to make life easy for myself by cheating. All the rebates are applied after the frames are glued up, so the joinery is straightforward M&T and comb joints, with no fannying about with long and short shoulders.

So this is the joint between muntin and transom:






For 4-16-4 units, the casements need to be deeper than on days of yore, so I made the joinery correspondingly chunky:





As I say, the rebates were applied afterwards:





This is where window frame and door jamb meet:





The external glazing bead allows ventilation and drainage all round the sealed unit:





This is what they look like from inside...





...and from outside.





This was just last year and now I have to say goodbye to it all 

But compare them to the workshop window on the left and the kitchen window on the right, where the glass is fitted directly into the frame below with opening casements above.

HTH
Steve


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## Dibs-h (4 Dec 2009)

Steve Maskery":1epbyovj said:


> I decided to make life easy for myself by cheating. All the rebates are applied after the frames are glued up, so the joinery is straightforward M&T and comb joints, with no fannying about with long and short shoulders.
> 
> HTH
> Steve



That thought has occurred.  

The other thought that has occurred is making them with a Domino - using waterproof dominoes + suitable adhesive. What do you think of the Domino idea? Be a lot quicker!


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## Steve Maskery (4 Dec 2009)

I've done that, too, for my neighbour's house the previous year. They haven't fallen out yet!
S


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## Dibs-h (4 Dec 2009)

Steve Maskery":2rumasef said:


> I've done that, too, for my neighbour's house the previous year. They haven't fallen out yet!
> S



Hmmm! What sizes did you use and how many for each joint?


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## Steve Maskery (4 Dec 2009)

The bottom rail will have a rebate machined, so we placed the doms where they wouldn't get cut





In the top rail that's not a problem





The work is speedy





This support cradle was very handy, we didn't have to keep clamping and unclamping





Because the dom slots are different depths (because the sticking gets in the way) we have to trim the dom stock to different lengths, and because we made our own, we could use the widest waggle setting and fill it






The bay window is original, the upstairs are replacements.


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## Dibs-h (4 Dec 2009)

Steve

Awesome! Exactly the kind of info I needed. It does look like if I was using ready made dominoes - they would be the larger sizes.

I'll have to look at the other wooden windows in the house to see what the inside profiles look like, but will end up with either of the following 2,






or






What do you think of the sizes, etc?

Opening is 1350 wide x 1100 high - just 3 sections, 2 side openers with the middle one being a fixed casement. Would it look aesthetically right?


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## Steve Maskery (4 Dec 2009)

Sizes look OK, except that to get 55m finished you will waste a lot of timber. We finished at 51mm which completely filled the original rebate.
Your mouldings in v1 don't look very big to me.

You've not allowed for any sealant. That's another 1-2 mm. Email me and I'll send you the text and joint drawing.

S


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## Dibs-h (4 Dec 2009)

Steve Maskery":3ujo579j said:


> Sizes look OK, except that to get 55m finished you will waste a lot of timber. We finished at 51mm which completely filled the original rebate.
> Your mouldings in v1 don't look very big to me.
> 
> You've not allowed for any sealant. That's another 1-2 mm. Email me and I'll send you the text and joint drawing.
> ...



PM Sent (or sending now)


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## Dibs-h (4 Dec 2009)

Steve

One thing I haven't quite got - perhaps it's in the text (but I haven't read that yet - will be doing so later this eveing) in which case  - are the Domino made windows internally beaded or externally?

Cheers

Dibs


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## Joints (4 Dec 2009)

Steve, come one now be honest 

It is clearly not that sunny that you needed to wear shades is it?

Any excuse eh


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## Steve Maskery (4 Dec 2009)

Dibs-h":3gir8wkx said:


> Steve
> 
> One thing I haven't quite got - perhaps it's in the text (but I haven't read that yet - will be doing so later this eveing) in which case  - are the Domino made windows internally beaded or externally?
> 
> ...



Externally


Dibs-h":3gir8wkx said:


> It is clearly not that sunny that you needed to wear shades is it?



For me, yes. I'm photophobic. I'm not scared of it!  but it has to be a very dull day for me to feel comfortable in normal levels of daylight. Light makes me sneeze, my eyes hurt and I have difficulty keeping them open (yeah, yeah, I know all the jokes).

S


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## Dibs-h (5 Dec 2009)

Steve

The house has stone sills (not stooled) and none of the windows have wooden sills (extending past the window that is).

Following that I fitted similar stone sills - standing about 1.5" proud of the exterior wall. Once the 1/2" or so of render is on - they'll be about 1" proud - same as the house. I did fit them - leaning forward about 5mm or so to help with water running off.

Would I still need wooden sills at the bottom of the window? I was inclined to make the frames and screw them down, i.e. no sill.

Cheers

Dibs.


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## Steve Maskery (6 Dec 2009)

If you have a stoned cill then adding a wooden one would look daft IMHO. My cills are brick (4th pic down). I've had no problems (not even during last night's deluge).
Cheers
Steve


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## Dibs-h (6 Dec 2009)

Steve Maskery":1idqubyv said:


> If you have a stoned cill then adding a wooden one would look daft IMHO. My cills are brick (4th pic down). I've had no problems (not even during last night's deluge).
> Cheers
> Steve



Cool - will be going with the no-cill option (easier too). Thanks!


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## Dibs-h (18 Dec 2009)

Does anyone know where I can get something like,






without having to buy an industrial quantity - i,e, 50m of the stuff?

The stuff that seems to be readily available is 






but as I'll be using planted stops - I'd prefer to put the slot into the thicker section - i.e. side.


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## JonnyD (18 Dec 2009)

You could try here you will have to buy 50m but it is only £14 

http://www.reddiseals.com/acatalog/drau ... l_5mm.html

should also fit in the side. I usually use aquamac 63 seal on windows and small quantities can be bought from trend but you will also need to buy a fairly expensive cutter or spindle block to use it whilst the reddiseals one will fit in a circular saw kerf.

cheers

jon


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## John Smith (19 Dec 2009)

www.IronmongeryDirect.co.uk stock a comprehensive range of window seals amongst other things. I have had good service from them before.


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## xy mosian (19 Dec 2009)

Dibs, I know you're in the Bradford area. I have found that A.C. Sisslings, off Manchester Road have had a reasonable range and helpful staff.

xy


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## Dibs-h (21 Dec 2009)

Thanks Chaps - had another look at the drawing I had posted, it actually showed a "Complex S" joinery seal. Picked up a roll locally. Had a look at Espags for the windows as well. Settled on Maco 20mm backset ones as they have 4 mushrroms as opposed to 2 that most have. Aren't much more expensive.

Any recomendations\suggestions for hinges - they'll be traditional casements?

Spent Sat getting some more timber (all the casements and the other frame), getting a heater and planing up the timber for both frames. Managed to generate a large bin liner of shavings\sawdust. Hopefully find someone at work with a gerbil\hamster and they can have it for free.

Sun: Here's some softwood I had planed up already,







Got going with the Dom,






It's a WIP picture - I used 4 large dominoes in each joint. The fence was used for the outer 2, and the Dom was sat on a bit of timber to get the middle 2.

Here's it assembled,






And here's what the outside was saying,






Top tip - even if it says 30 min PU, *don't use PU*, complete pipper to assemble. I'm rather pleased I managed to get all 8 joints done with a total of 32 dominoes assembled, cramped, squared up (+/- 2mm) and not warped, before the bleedin glue went.

Then only took a break for a couple of hours.

Went back in yesterday evening and went "Doh, &^%^ H^^l!!!!" Forgot to run the groove for the joinery seal! So will be getting inventive with a router cutter\fein or justy getting some self adhesive stuff as well.

I'll be planting the stops on for both the casements and the frame. Watch this space for the rest of the mis-adventures!


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## Dibs-h (4 Jan 2010)

Update: Wifey and kids were away all Xmas and New year so plenty time to get stuff done (or would have been had I not got used to sleeping in).

Got the timber planed up from 3"x2" for the casements. It took far longer getting everything sorted in my head, that it actually took to do stuff.

Here's the groove for the Espag,






Slot routed out and espag temperarily fitted,






1st Doh moment. Realised that I've routered the groove all the way to the end, when the espag stopped about 100 short. Will glue a strip in and since it will be painted - won't be seen.

Groove cut for the 2nd espag (grrove to correct length this time),






Casement 1, and ready to be dominoed. I decided to fit the seal in the casements insetad of the frame. Grooves cut on the table saw.






Left approx 8mm all the way round the casement - why 8mm? 8mm seemed to be suit the espag\keeps and allowed me to laminate some timber on the other faces. Easily resawn from 18mm PSE I had lying about, and 5min PU made it quick.






Here's casement 2 being clamped up,






Here's the 2nd (opening) casement being "dry fitted" 






The external stop (to cover the espag\keeps) having been glued on,






Here's frame 2 being dominoed,






and having been glued up,






You can see frame 2 and it's 3 casements in the background.


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## Dibs-h (11 Jan 2010)

Update - got back in the 'shop yesterday.

Cut all the 3"x2" to length (approx) to form the 3 casements,






Then time to fire up the P\T - thankfully after about 5 mins off faffing about it got going. I suspect that having sat about in the house - probably explained it's reluctance to start.






Looks a bit old (well it is) but does good job - just need to adjust the pointer on the scale at some point as apposed to trial and error it.

Machined the slots for the espags on the 2 openers,






Also made a start on the rebate\groove for the joinery seal (no piccies of that at the moment).


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## Dibs-h (15 Jan 2010)

Update - 

Tuesday - finished off the rebates\grooves, for the seals






Wed - Used the Domino to cut all the slots and did a dry fit, 






Thursday - started glueing the casements up. Used a 5 min PU as I was able to keep the temp above 5C, but not for the hrs that PVS type glue would need. Another dry fit, including clamping and working out the diagonal measurements - helped.






Then once the glue had set - 30 mins, used a handplane to remove any excess in the verticals. So here we have all 6 casements and the 2 frames in the background,






The 1st set have had all the stops planted on and just need planing (here and there) to fit as required. Will hopefully fit the stops on the 2nd set this evening. And then start on the door this weekend.

I'll have to cart this lot into the house - when Wifey isn't watching - and paint them. Trying to paint this lot in the 'shop - would just be a waste of time.

Probably need to get the handles and stays this weekend and dry fit them along with the hinges prior to takeing apart again and painting.

I've got some Sikkens Onol primer so will be using that and getting some Robul Satura (white) - or should we go with grey topcoat.

What the suggestions?

Edit: Just been onto Sikkens and the water borne opaque finishes can be sprayed - so having a noddy HVLP thingy at home - may well give it a go, and leave the Robul\Onol stuff for the fasicas, bargeboards etc.


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## Dibs-h (18 Jan 2010)

Update - Sat, carried on glueing on the stops, plants onto the casements, until the 'leccy went of at 14:30. Didn't come back on till around 17:00, so I thought sod it and went out for a sheesha. Had to collect a backup battery for the house alarm as that went up the swanny.

Sat evening was spent re-programming the house alarm. :evil: 

Sun - after another go at re-programming the house alarm (and getting it right) - tried to disarm the part setting to get into the garage and it wouldn't unset. At which time it was easier to do a hard reset and start again. Thankfully it turned out that I'd mixed up the user code with the eng code.

Anyways - back to wood. After sticking on tons of plants\stops - time to plane to size,






Thought I'd go with the fixed casement - more opportunity for fixing it should it go wrong. :wink:

Here it is in place (almost)






Then onto the 1st opening casement






Finally all 3 done. Here's a view from the front,






One opener is cracked open abit - it looks a bit off but the openers aren't hinged yet.

Here's a view from the back - some stops on the inside and very nearly there.







At the moment there is very little gap between the casements and the frame - *What's the recommended gap beteeen the casement and the frame? I was thinking like 1mm or so.*

*I was also thinking of insetting the casement into the frame - say 1-2mm, thought it would look better than flush or slightly proud??*

Cheers

Dibs


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## Steve Maskery (18 Jan 2010)

Dibs
A 1mm gap is too small.

How are you going to finish this? Paint? If so,
1. Primer
2 Undercoat (x2?)
3 Gloss (x2?)

Lets say 4 coats in all. On each surface. Frame, casement. other side of casement, other side of frame. 16 coats of paint. That's a lot more than 1 mm. 1mm clearance is good, I reckon, and I'm no expert in this, having done the job just a couple of times, but I bet 3mm is nearer the mark.
Cheers
Steve


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## Dibs-h (19 Jan 2010)

Steve Maskery":3iejxox0 said:


> Dibs
> A 1mm gap is too small.
> 
> How are you going to finish this? Paint? If so,
> ...



Cheers Steve

I was looking at the Sikkens BL range - it consists of just a primer and an opaque topcoat. No mention in the literature of an undercoat. As it's waterbased was thinking of spraying it on. Even sprayed on 1mm might be too small a gap - just thinking cars door gaps here.

I'll have another read of the Sikkens paperwork and see how may coats of what are likely to be required.

Ah well - I suppose it's more wood shavings to do! 

Dibs


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## wizer (19 Jan 2010)

You're doing well with this, I'm taking notes


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## OPJ (19 Jan 2010)

I'd probably go for a 2p coin, which is about 2mm thickness. As you haven't painted it yet, don't make it so the coin is a tight fit. Chances are that, having spent a certain amount of time in your workshop (assuming it's dry... :wink, these windows may take on moisture and swell slightly once they're installed. A 1mm gap would not be enough, in this instance.


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## Dibs-h (19 Jan 2010)

OPJ":1begm6am said:


> I'd probably go for a 2p coin, which is about 2mm thickness. As you haven't painted it yet, don't make it so the coin is a tight fit. Chances are that, having spent a certain amount of time in your workshop (assuming it's dry... :wink, these windows may take on moisture and swell slightly once they're installed. A 1mm gap would not be enough, in this instance.



The workshop doesn't have any windows or a door. All going well, these *are* the windows for the workshop - so I wouldn't have thought they take on any more moisture, if anything I would have thought they'd shrink if anything?

Although it does have a roof (well Tyvek and laths) - so dry inside. :wink:


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## Dibs-h (22 Jan 2010)

Update:

Wed - Planed the casements on Frame 2, to just fit into the openings whilst I decided the "gap".

Thursday - after some more of this,






ended up with the both openers slipping in every easily - used a 20p coin as the spacer (it was that or a choice between a £1 coin or a £2 coin :wink






Then started on the hinges - marking them 1 hinge length up from the bottom (and top, for the upper one) of the casement.






Lord! I haven't cut hinges since secondary school - but it does come back quickly. Initially, I didn't set the knuckle in - preferring to get the leaf to the correct depth, then cutting the extra bit to set the pin in.

Using only 1 screw (one of the small ones provided) in the middle of each hinge, temporarily fitted the casement,






And the moment of truth - would it close or bind?






Nice and smooth - didn't catch anywhere. The reason you can see light thru the gap in or 2 places is that the inner stops haven't been fitted yet.

And here's one with the frame the right way up and both casements fitted.






I chose to set the opening casements in by about 2mm as well - looks better to me than flush with the outside of the frame.

Also will have to do a rebate on the fixed casement - so that for the outer 1cm or so (on the external face) there is also a 2mm gap (matching the opening ones) and it doesn't go all the way thru to the inside. Was thinking shoulder\rebate plane. Cobblers don't have one (yet) but should be able to make do so with a router\table.


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## Dibs-h (25 Jan 2010)

Update: Weekends activities,

Started fitting the hinges on frame 2 and it's 2 casements,






and then fitted it's 1st casement






Hinge 7 defintely looks tidier than hinge 1 - :lol:






Although the auto-focus has gone awol.

Here's one of the "rebate" on the external side of the fixed casement - to simulate the clearance all round - as per the opening casements.






Here's the frame - with the casements in,






and as you can see - it looks like all 3 casements open, which (rightly or wrongly) was the intention. Then onto the internal stops - cutting to the full width and then moving them to allow a 2-3mm gap for the joinery seal resulted in a far bit of planing. But rather that than "Oh, dung too short!"






Here the 2 frames are visible with the internal stops all fitted, etc. Just need to do the glazing rebates and glazing beads.






Will be ordering the glass today (for collection on Thur) and ordering the Sikkens water based stuff. Bit of luck might get near completion by the weekend.


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## Dibs-h (1 Feb 2010)

Thursday - collected the glass units.







Friday - didn't have much time but got all the timber cut up for the glazing upstands and most of the external beading.

Sat: Collected the Butyl glazing tape from a place in Leeds - can't get it any closer annoyingly enough and also got some rubber setting blocks.

Fitted the glazing upstands - 5 min PU is wonderful stuff!






Also permanently fitted the fixed casements - glue and 2 screws in each side, so don't think we'll be having any issues with them. Also fitted the internal stops for the fixed casements - so it all looks the same from the inside.

Sun: Tidied up bits and pieces and with the outside temp < 0c - had to take the frames into the house. Thankfully there is a large bedroom that isn't in use and is sort of being renovated (well was until the workshop started) - so used that. Sat the frames on some tressles - bit of duck tape and some staples onto some scaffolding boards - stopped the frames from falling over when I opened the casements.

I left the casements on as I didn't have any space to hang them, etc. Just masked over the hinges. I used a cheapy Earlex HVP that I have had lying about for ages. 

Used Sikkens Cettol BL Opage primer in white. The tin recommended adding 30% water - so did that with the 1st mix, then ended up somewhere closer to 50%. Went on well - the only annoying thing was having to wipe the build up on the tip every so often. But I suppose that was down to it being somewhat under-powered.

1L of primer just about covered the lot in one coat - so ordered another 1L of each.






Yes I know the room is more like a tip.  

Checked the frames this morning and bone dry - surface is all raised, as one would expect with water based. I don't really think the Earlex El-Cheapo is going to cut it for the top coat, so am looking into a better one - erring towards an Earlex HV5000. Will be needing to get my hands on one rather soon as I want the frames full painted by the weekend - ready to fix and glaze.

*Searching the forums the Earlex HV5000 seems to be somewhat recommended? What's the difference likely to be between that and the most basic Earlex one (HV3000 I think) - night & day or just a bit better? Or am I better off spending a little more on a better bit of kit? Something that one could spray 2k lacquers might be nice as I can see that need arising in 12-24 months - so wouldn't want to fork out again? Having said that - the HV5000 seems cheap enough so could afford to have one just for wood.*


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## Dibs-h (3 Feb 2010)

Realised the other day - after putting on the primer, I'd missed the capillary grooves. So scratched my head for a while and after a bit of googling rang Wealdon for a capillary groove cutter (about £26 as opposed to £60+ from others) - fantastic service. Once I'd explained the frames\casements had already been made - the chap suggested a twin fluted groover with a bottom bearing for almost 1/2 the price and to top it all off - turned up 1st thing this morning!

So will hopefully be doing the grooves this evening and then applying another coat of primer. Probably flat the existing coat down first as it's rough as a proverbial.


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## Dibs-h (8 Feb 2010)

Flatted back a fair bit of primer - in a few places wasn't too happy so applied some 2 part filler - probably spent too much time in auto bodyshops in the past. :wink:

And then flatted it down. I've got an Earlex 3000 (from ages back), so ended up thinning the WB Sikkens primer down a lot to get it to spray reasonably well.

Sat - collected an Abranet block and loads of Abranet (Cheers Richard @ Birstall) and flatted some more, with a bit more bondo, till I was happier with the finish.

Also used the capillary groove cutter (ordered from Wealdons earlier) and cut the groove 10mm or in from the edge on both the casements and the frame. The one on the frame was a few mm deeper - due to the casements being inset into the frame. Don't ask why - I just like them that way.






Sun - sprayed on another coat of primer






You may also notice - I stopped masking the hinges. Had a few close "incidents" and thought sod it!

Checked it this morning - felt a damn sight smoother and used less paint. On bare wood it almost 1L to do both frames and all the casements for the 1st coat. This time round - a lot less. With the HVLP - it does dry quickly.

Will be flatting it (slightly) with some finer Abranet and maybe one more coat of primer, as the 1st lot were watered down heavily.

Also just bought an Apollo 700 (off Fleebay) so may use that to see if I can spray the Sikkens WB less watered down.


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## Max Power (8 Feb 2010)

Looking very good, will be interesting to see how good a finish you get with the sickens


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## Dibs-h (11 Feb 2010)

Picked up the Apollo 700 last night and the chap threw in a fair bit of Morrells AC and other stuff in as well as he had no use for it now. Must be a good 15L (No use for it at the mo- but will put it to one side for now).

He plugged it in for me and switched it on - wow! Compared to the El-Cheapo Earlex (3000 or something) this thing is in a different league! Looking forward to the weekend and some more painting to see how it performs and just how much I have to thin the paint\primer down compared to before.


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## Dibs-h (6 Apr 2010)

I'm not updating this thread anymore as the windows has now been fitted - 

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/work ... 5-225.html

and everything is now back in the main thread.

Here's a piccy anyway,


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## Austin Branson (29 Jan 2013)

Steve Maskery":292kbvxl said:


> Here is one I prepared earlier.
> Although I do have a spindle moulder (up for sale - any takers?) the tooling I have is more suited to cabinetry than joinery. I decided to make life easy for myself by cheating. All the rebates are applied after the frames are glued up, so the joinery is straightforward M&T and comb joints, with no fannying about with long and short shoulders.
> 
> So this is the joint between muntin and transom:
> ...


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## Dibs-h (29 Jan 2013)

Austin, Invisible ink? LOL


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