# Can you guess



## woodpig

What it is yet?


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## woodpig

Any help? :lol:


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## blackrodd

A steel block felt tipped blue, and marked out for milling?
Rodders


PS If you are machining or milling this could I ask for a wip please? I have got very interested in metalworking of late
Rodders


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## woodpig

I've not taken that many pictures Rodders. This is the next one, rather gives it away I think!


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## blackrodd

A really chunky, lasting, cross cutting type stop ?
Rodders


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## woodpig

Last pic for tonight. :wink:


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## blackrodd

woodpig":137df1pm said:


> Last pic for tonight. :wink:




No, sorry, haven't got any idea at all!
Rodders


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## woodpig

Nearly there!


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## Jacob

Is it for getting stones out of horses hooves?


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## woodpig

Jacob":2kubvj12 said:


> Is it for getting stones out of horses hooves?



No! :lol: http://m.wikihow.com/Pick-a-Horse-Hoof


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## pcb1962

Bandsaw guide block?
http://www.allbandsawblades.com/carter_stabilizer.htm


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## woodpig

Yep, you got it. Just a couple more pins to turn, drill and tap and it's done.


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## woodpig

Final picture of it fitted. Just need to fit the guard.


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## blackrodd

I didn't see the slot for the back wheel, anyway, still wouldn't have guessed!.
Cracking job, Thanks for that, I would be grateful if you could take 2, or 3 pics of you're milling, another time.
Thanks and regards Rodders


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## woodpig

I'll try and remember next time. As soon as I can get a suitable bearing I'll be making a single bearing guide for small blades next.

Update, here it is:


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## pcb1962

blackrodd":2ips8t2l said:


> Thanks for that, I would be grateful if you could take 2, or 3 pics of you're milling, another time.



Rodders, if you're looking for machining stuff the madmodder forum is the metalworkers equivalent of this place, lots of great project logs and friendly helpful people


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## blackrodd

pcb1962":2a2m35x4 said:


> blackrodd":2a2m35x4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that, I would be grateful if you could take 2, or 3 pics of you're milling, another time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rodders, if you're looking for machining stuff the madmodder forum is the metalworkers equivalent of this place, lots of great project logs and friendly helpful people
Click to expand...



Thanks, I'll pop across and have a look.
Regards Rodders


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## woodpig

Following a request, here's a picture of all the parts.


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## graduate_owner

Nice. I have been getting more into metalworking recently and my most recent acquisition is a Colchester Master Mk2 (to add to my milling machine and surface grinder). I'm not up to this sort of work yet though.

K


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## AES

That looks really nice, high quality work to be proud of woodpig. Thanks.

AES


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## Ring

More to the point when are you doing a production run


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## heimlaga

Thanks Woodpig!


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## woodpig

Ring":1au1h3z8 said:


> More to the point when are you doing a production run



Sadly I don't work fast enough to make them economically viable.

I just don't know why manufacturers like Record don't make them like this though. They could afford to buy in Alloy extrusion of a suitable shape which would cut down the machining a lot and the bearings are cheap enough.


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## woodpig

Quick Sketch.


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## sploo

woodpig":fsjrpeba said:


> Quick Sketch.


Many thanks.

I assume the use of M5 bolts with the (I don't know the proper name) shims is purely because you couldn't get bearings with a 5mm Internal Diameter, and using a bolt of the bearing ID would have been too large for your 10mm rods?

On the rods for the side and thrust bearings I see you've milled a groove. Is that purely to make them easier to grip with your fingers and slide back?

What's your gut feel on how these are working? On my BS300 the standard top guide has the back of the blade running against the side of a bearing (well, actually just a disc). Common sense hints that running on the edge of a bearing (like what you've done) would be better and cooler.

I saw a video where Matthias Wandel showed that running on the side is much quieter than the edge, but I'm not too bothered about the noise as I always use ear defenders.


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## woodpig

The 22 x 8 x 7 bearings used are commonly available and cheap to buy. Using sleeves and M5 bolts into the 10mm adjusters is pretty similar to what others are doing and made sense to me. Yes the grooves are just to grip the ends of the adjusters. The bearings are designed to take the load in the way I (and others like Carter) have used them. Doing it any other way means they're sure to wear out quicker. My bandsaw is now quieter with this setup than it was with the record "disc" bearings.

Some manufacturers take the easy way out and put the thrust (back bearing) the "wrong" way round. This is fine if it's easier for you to make but it may be a little noiser and wear out a bit quicker but it's only one bearing and as said they're cheap enough to buy.


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## sploo

woodpig":1rgwy1cu said:


> The 22 x 8 x 7 bearings used are commonly available and cheap to buy. Using sleeves and M5 bolts into the 10mm adjusters is pretty similar to what others are doing and made sense to me. Yes the grooves are just to grip the ends of the adjusters. The bearings are designed to take the load in the way I (and others like Carter) have used them. Doing it any other way means they're sure to wear out quicker. My bandsaw is now quieter with this setup than it was with the record "disc" bearings.
> 
> Some manufacturers take the easy way out and put the thrust (back bearing) the "wrong" way round. This is fine if it's easier for you to make but it may be a little noiser and wear out a bit quicker but it's only one bearing and as said they're cheap enough to buy.


Thanks. I guess you make the sleeves yourself too?

The bearing thing is an interesting issue. I see the point that using a sideways mounted thrust bearing (back of blade running against the side of the bearing) is quieter, but it does seem an odd thing to me. As you say, running something against the edge of a bearing is kinda what they're designed for - so even if it's noisier I'd have thought it would be better for the blade.

The standard Record disc thrust bearing is pretty awful. I've had it get pretty hot (it doesn't spin that well) so any sort of bearing (mounted either way) would surely be better.

Lacking metal working tools/skills I do wonder how successful a block (like what you've milled) would be if it were made from a dense hardwood. Probably it'd be OK I guess.


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## woodpig

Yes I made all the parts.

I don't see how scraping the blade down the side of a bearing can be quieter? Here is another bearing guide made the "right" way like the Carter.

http://youtu.be/seZ2IJfylec


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## sploo

woodpig":2vm0wzrx said:


> Yes I made all the parts.
> 
> I don't see how scraping the blade down the side of a bearing can be quieter? Here is another bearing guide made the "right" way like the Carter.
> 
> http://youtu.be/seZ2IJfylec


See https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLF6 ... _bUCTCNUmo


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## woodpig

I'm not sure what running a bearing over a cast iron saw table by hand proves as only the fine edge of the blade is in contact with the bearing. I have to admit he is quite amusing at times though. He refused to get into discussion with another issue I found so he is quite single minded.

I'm happy with the Carter design so I'm sticking with it even though it would have been much easier to put the bearing against its normal rotation. I'm sure either design will work for you though so just pick the easiest for you to make?

Makes you wonder though doesn't it that the cheapest and easiest way of doing it would be with wooden blocks and yet no manufacturers use this method. Maybe it's the fire hazard?!


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## woodpig

I looked at my own link again and noticed they sell on eBay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Delta-10-Band ... SwA4dWH8Ds

Not sure if they make them to fit record bandsaws but the price is good.


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## sploo

woodpig":29v4j13h said:


> I'm not sure what running a bearing over a cast iron saw table by hand proves as only the fine edge of the blade is in contact with the bearing. I have to admit he is quite amusing at times though. He refused to get into discussion with another issue I found so he is quite single minded.
> 
> I'm happy with the Carter design so I'm sticking with it even though it would have been much easier to put the bearing against its normal rotation. I'm sure either design will work for you though so just pick the easiest for you to make?
> 
> Makes you wonder though doesn't it that the cheapest and easiest way of doing it would be with wooden blocks and yet no manufacturers use this method. Maybe it's the fire hazard?!


I guess his table saw experiment was just a way of trying to test out why there was such a large difference in volume level on the bandsaw between the two arrangements.

I'm with you on the Carter design - it makes much more sense to me (even if it's louder). The interesting question would be: why do most manufacturers do it a different way? It could be that Carter's design is an unnecessary faff that's more expensive to manufacture. It could be that it (Carter bearing layout) is an improvement, but so often companies will do something a certain way because "that's how it's always been done". Unless someone identifies a commercial advantage to changing anyway.

I thought I'd just go and check how "the big boys" do it; the guides on a Felder 510 look a lot more like the standard Record ones! You'd have thought they could afford bearings...

Ironically I guess that the closest thing to using wooden blocks (in terms of what's commercial available) would be ceramic blocks - which seem to have a bit of a mystique as being the holy grail of side guides (never used any so can't comment). Perhaps "two bits of wood" would be harder to sell :wink:


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## sploo

woodpig":3jjcf7ln said:


> I looked at my own link again and noticed they sell on eBay.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Delta-10-Band ... SwA4dWH8Ds
> 
> Not sure if they make them to fit record bandsaws but the price is good.


I guess it's part of the cost efficiencies needed to make something at a price you can sell (and make a profit) but they do look like cr*p compared to the guide block you made! I guess there's probably a few more hours in yours than their's - which I suspect would probably still be true even for a full CNC mill.


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## woodpig

Those welded ones may not look so good but I'm sure they'll work just fine and the price is right.

I made a tool some time back called a "nudger" by some folks. It's the rod Near the rear of this picture with a bearing on it the same as the ones on my guide. It's used for aligning stuff on my metal lathe.






As an experiment I moved the top guide back on my bandsaw and pressed first the periphery and then the edge of the bearing of the nudger against the back of the blade. There was very little difference in the amount of noise produced. As the face of the bearing is moving at different speeds thought relative to the bandsaw blade it did produce some sparks, not good on a machine that produces lots of sawdust. Someone on here is visiting me in a couple of weeks so I'll see what they make of the difference! 

I suspect the bandsaw makes more noise actually cutting the wood than the bearings make so maybe we need quieter wood! :lol:


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## sploo

woodpig":3mqcnsa3 said:


> Those welded ones may not look so good but I'm sure they'll work just fine and the price is right.


Indeed. Functional, but certainly not beautiful.



woodpig":3mqcnsa3 said:


> I made a tool some time back called a "nudger" by some folks. It's the rod Near the rear of this picture with a bearing on it the same as the ones on my guide. It's used for aligning stuff on my metal lathe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an experiment I moved the top guide back on my bandsaw and pressed first the periphery and then the edge of the bearing of the nudger against the back of the blade. There was very little difference in the amount of noise produced. As the face of the bearing is moving at different speeds thought relative to the bandsaw blade it did produce some sparks, not good on a machine that produces lots of sawdust. Someone on here is visiting me in a couple of weeks so I'll see what they make of the difference!
> 
> I suspect the bandsaw makes more noise actually cutting the wood than the bearings make so maybe we need quieter wood! :lol:


I do have some bearings in a drawer somewhere so I should try it.

With the standard Record guides I obviously avoid having the side guides touching the blade. The rear thrust disc/plate does obviously produce some sparks (and a lot of heat) with sustained heavy cutting - though with wide blades and plenty of tension that's not too bad.

Wandel makes the point about wanting side guides actually touching the blade (otherwise what's the point). Again I suppose bearings for that would be louder than blocks, but as you say - once cutting, that noise is likely to overwhelm any bearing noise.

Nice workmanship above BTW.


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## transatlantic

So to do this sort of thing, would you need both a metal milling machine _and _ a metal working lathe? I'd love to get into metal working! .. making small pieces like this seems such a delight!


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## woodpig

Ideally you need both but you can press the lathe into use for milling small items provided you have a vertical slide.

http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/mill.html


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## transatlantic

okie doke, thanks.


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## novocaine

whilst a milling machine would make it so much easier to do, you could do similar with hand tools (and a pillar drill), it isn't going to be fun, but it's doable. you'd have to change the design of the shafts to be more generic and there would be lots and lots and lots of filing to do. reckon what took the right honourable Mr woodpig to do in a few days would take you a good week if not more. 

on the plus side, you'd have arms of steel by the end of it.


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## transatlantic

novocaine":26dpwge3 said:


> whilst a milling machine would make it so much easier to do, you could do similar with hand tools (and a pillar drill), it isn't going to be fun, but it's doable. you'd have to change the design of the shafts to be more generic and there would be lots and lots and lots of filing to do. reckon what took the right honourable Mr woodpig to do in a few days would take you a good week if not more.
> 
> on the plus side, you'd have arms of steel by the end of it.



Heh. The thing that interests me about that kind of metal work is the precision, so I wouldn't really want to do it by hand.


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## novocaine

you can get precision by hand too you know, watch makers managed it anyway.


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## woodpig

Before I had a milling machine I used to make a lot of stuff with a file.


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## AES

What novocaine and woodpig both said - the mill (or any other machine) "only" makes the job faster and NOT necessarily more accurate. In fact, trying to use a mill (or lathe, or just about anything else) is perhaps even more difficult in terms of the thinking and knowledge required to set up and machine to accurate limits.

As part of my apprenticeship I was taught to be able to file flat and square to a tolerance of plus/minus one thou (Imperial). I won't say it's easy, but once learnt ("just" a lot of practice basically) it's not forgotten.

And I'm not saying I'd like to do it again, but as I don't have a mill, and only a small vertical slide on a small lathe, IF I needed to do it, I'm confident that I could. 

And I'm sure that confidence applies to anyone else who served a similar apprenticeship to mine.

That does not however detract from the obvious skills and care and attention - "love", even? - that has been applied to the work shown above.

AES


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## novocaine

still have to work with a file, I don't have a mill and the lathe is sat in my folks garage in nottingham, bit far to go to knock up a couple of bits (it will be coming home soon, I hope). 

oh and I hope no one thinks my comments on making it with a file were taking something away from the work shown here. first rate. 

I didn't do an apprenticeship, but did have father who taught metalwork, so I went though it all at home instead.


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## transatlantic

Ok, so I can see how some of it could be built using hand tools, but you can't really get around not having the lathe though right? 

I'd be interested to see how you'd build the project in this thread by hand.


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## Phil Pascoe

AES":qmkle7wh said:


> As part of my apprenticeship I was taught to be able to file flat and square to a tolerance of plus/minus one thou (Imperial). I won't say it's easy, but once learnt ("just" a lot of practice basically) it's not forgotten.
> And I'm sure that confidence applies to anyone else who served a similar apprenticeship to mine.
> AES



My friend had to make perfect cubes of set dimensions from ball bearings. :shock:
He never had to use a file again for the rest of his life. :lol:


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## AES

Well I guess you COULD get away without a lathe, but a pillar drill would, IMO, be an absolute necessity. And having no lathe would make life a LOT harder (but not impossible, please note).

So the lathe makes life a helluva lot easier, not only because (once set up correctly) it will cut holes and make pillars, axles, threads, etc, which are absolutely concentric with the centre axis of the lathe (or eccentric to the axis, come to that!), but by it's very nature, it also allows the production of a straight line (e.g. a cut) which is absolutely parallel to (or perpendicular to) the centre axis of the lathe. And with the right attachment (e.g. a vertical slide) it's also possible to accurately set up angles other than 90 and 0/180 degrees.

So buy yourself a lathe mate (and while you're at it, a vertical mill too)! But also, be prepared for A) an outlay on tooling, etc, which at least equals the initial cost of the machine itself, plus B) a long (but fascinating) learning curve.

You're quite right, it IS an absolutely absorbing hobby/pass time/obsession, whatever you want to call it.  

AES


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## woodpig

This is my current mill, cost me about £1500 about ten years ago.


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## transatlantic

AES":2uf4re83 said:


> Well I guess you COULD get away without a lathe, but a pillar drill would, IMO, be an absolute necessity. And having no lathe would make life a LOT harder (but not impossible, please note).
> 
> So the lathe makes life a helluva lot easier, not only because (once set up correctly) it will cut holes and make pillars, axles, threads, etc, which are absolutely concentric with the centre axis of the lathe (or eccentric to the axis, come to that!), but by it's very nature, it also allows the production of a straight line (e.g. a cut) which is absolutely parallel to (or perpendicular to) the centre axis of the lathe. And with the right attachment (e.g. a vertical slide) it's also possible to accurately set up angles other than 90 and 0/180 degrees.
> 
> So buy yourself a lathe mate (and while you're at it, a vertical mill too)! But also, be prepared for A) an outlay on tooling, etc, which at least equals the initial cost of the machine itself, plus B) a long (but fascinating) learning curve.
> 
> You're quite right, it IS an absolutely absorbing hobby/pass time/obsession, whatever you want to call it.
> 
> AES



Oh I won't be doing it anytime soon as I have little enough space for my woodworking stuff, but it's something I have on my todo list in the distant future


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## novocaine

the shafts can be off the peg stock, you might have to adjust the dimensions slightly. a pillar drill ( I did say you'd need a pillar drill) will give you enough accuracy to drill centre holes etc. on the shafts, or you can cut end threads. the body can be cut out then filed, the holes can be done on a pillar drill, the slots can be chain drilled and filled to line, the bearings can by bought in, bolts can be trimmed to dimension if needed. 

no way I'm going to do it, but it's totally doable, and if I go back a few years, would have been done by me.


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## AES

Cor blimey, woodpig, I'd LOVE one o' them! Nice.

AES


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## Togalosh

Blimey Woodpig - that looks ace !

What guides came with your machine, were they that bad ?.. or how much better is your new set up ? 

I only ask as I had problems with my tiny Record bandsaw's guide bearings seizing up on a regular basis no matter how carefully I set things up. I looked online & read on Wikipedia that Z roller bearings (?) run far better/cooler with their outer ring captured rather than their inner ring.. so it seemed that using bearings for guides was a daft idea. I have carbon (?) blocks on my new/old beefy 352 which seem a much better idea as they'll be less liable to fail. 

I feel that I am not understanding something simple..again.. have you 5 minutes to put me in the picture please?

Thanks
Togs


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## woodpig

The original guides are shown in the background of this shot.






I found them bulky and awkward to adjust. I don't suppose the new ones work any better, just easier to use. Nothing wrong with blocks on the old Startrite bandsaws.


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