# Super Dust Deputy Cyclone



## Blister (21 Feb 2011)

Just spotted this on you know what web site 

May have been mentioned before , 
but looks like you can convert any Extractor to a cyclone , 
no more blocked filters :lol: , 
or a lot less blocked filters :mrgreen:


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## knappers (21 Feb 2011)

It's gone... Can't think how that could have happened.

Si


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## cambournepete (21 Feb 2011)

????
What's gone and from where?
????

Puzzled Pete :duno:


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## Blister (22 Feb 2011)

knappers":31fkzvu8 said:


> It's gone... Can't think how that could have happened.
> 
> Si



:mrgreen: .... I spent ages trying to find it again 

So it was you :lol:


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## knappers (22 Feb 2011)

I bought the small one. Somebody else had already bought the big one.
Si.


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## goldeneyedmonkey (22 Feb 2011)

There's one on there now for £106 delivered. I looked into these, can you let me know when you've got it up & running please Si, I'd be interested to know how good they perform?

Cheers  _Dan.


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## knappers (22 Feb 2011)

I bought the smaller version with the 2.5" ports, so will take me a while to get all plumbed in, as all my stuff is either 1.5" or 4". By the time I'm done I'll probably have spent as much on adapters as just buying the big one in the first place LOL.
Will let you all know how it goes.

Si


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## PeterBassett (22 Feb 2011)

Is there a reason for the cryptic nature of this thread? How about a link?


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## cambournepete (22 Feb 2011)

PeterBassett":fkjvjdz6 said:


> Is there a reason for the cryptic nature of this thread? How about a link?


Even if it's just by PM to those of us who are interested and confused...


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## Blister (22 Feb 2011)

PeterBassett":uluf2hlw said:


> Is there a reason for the cryptic nature of this thread? How about a link?



look here

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dust-Extractor-Cy ... 230e7fb13e

:mrgreen:


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## Karl (22 Feb 2011)

Just to be clear - it was me who bought the Super Dust Deputy (same as the one in the link above from Blister). Seems they may have a few of them. 

I'll let you know how reliable the service is when it arrives.

Cheers

Karl


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## goldeneyedmonkey (22 Feb 2011)

Cheers Si, & Karl.

Plus, come on people:


Blister":1mpchi0a said:


> you know what web site


 +


> Super Dust Deputy Cyclone


 =


Blister":1mpchi0a said:


> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dust-Extractor-Cy ... 230e7fb13e
> 
> :mrgreen:


it's not Rocket Surgery!  _Dan.


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## cambournepete (22 Feb 2011)

It might not be rocket surgery (?), but I didn't think of the bay, however obvious it seems now and was thinking it was some rival woodwork forum that could not be mentioned...


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## goldeneyedmonkey (23 Feb 2011)

Yeah I was only Jesting mate :arrow: :lol: I'm pretty interested to know what they're like, so that's why I knew what they were on about. _Dan.


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## beech1948 (23 Feb 2011)

I was looking on Sawcreek Mill the other day and through that found the Phil Thiens site where he has created the Thiens Separator. Its a simple self build pre separator which can be attached or even built into a dust extractor.

Worth a look as its cheap, can be made from easily available materials and seems to work at upto 98% + efficiency.

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/cy.htm

Discussion forum
http://www.cgallery.com/smf/

I must admit to liking to build my own stuff instead of buying often what is often commercial dross.
regards
Alan


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## Karl (25 Feb 2011)

Well it arrived today. Notice anything unusual?












No lables/badging.

Welding/cutting looks a bit rough too






I reckon these are knocked up in somebody's shop and being flogged as originals - the ebay listing showed a pic of the original Oneida.

I'm going to send the seller a message.

Cheers

Karl


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## cambournepete (25 Feb 2011)

It does look odd.
The seller wasn't called Oneida, although they claim to be in Ipswich, not far from Oneida UK in Hadleigh.
Might be worth asking Oneida if they are selling on ebay?


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## Karl (25 Feb 2011)

Well in fairness to the seller, he isn't hiding from questions - had an immediate response.

"They were made in the U.K. with permission from Oneida and are exactly the same pattern etc.I was the distributor for Oneida but I lost a lot of money and I am selling off the remaining stock I have. I have realised that I should have put some silicone around the inlet but a part from missing that they are exactly the same as the American ones at a very low price."

So they're NOT original Oneida's. 

Cheers

Karl


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## knappers (25 Feb 2011)

Hmm.. will be interesting to see what turns up when my smaller one arrives... I would be very tempted to send that big one of yours back, though.

Si.


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## miles_hot (25 Feb 2011)

What was his name? I'm aware that Steven Peters is no longer the stockist for Oneida (sometime before November last year he ceased to reply to emails to the oneida-air.com domain) and I find the "selling off stock" idea a little odd if their not built to the same standards as the original. I note that the domain name is the same as Steven used. All very intriguing and I will examine with care the Super DD when it arrives. Yours looks like it's got holes around the weld - surely that's going to stuff the flow?
Miles


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## Niall (25 Feb 2011)

Interesting. It looks well made apart from the skimping on the welding. Is it all in 'true'? Does the paint job look as good as it does in the pic?


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## Karl (25 Feb 2011)

Miles - I have been corresponding with "Steven" - don't know his surname, but I assume it's the same guy.

They just aren't originals. If you carefully read his first response, it is quite clear that they've been made over here (something he's confirmed in later messages) to the "same spec". I've told him that I think this should have been made clear in the listing - otherwise, buyers have been misled.

My Paypal payment went to Oneida Air UK or similair.

He's offered to send a courier to collect the cyclone and give me a full refund. As you say, the holes around the welding will cause leaks in the system. 

Cheers

Karl


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## miles_hot (25 Feb 2011)

Goodness - all so unnecessary. 
Very concerned now - I don't want something that has to be bodged with sealant and will not be happy messing around with a double dose of couriers.
Miles


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## TheTiddles (25 Feb 2011)

Yes, does look rough, but sealed up it might work well, all depends how much you paid for it and how pineappled off you are that the seller committed fraud

aidan


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## Karl (25 Feb 2011)

It was £101 with p&p, but it's the principle which has really f'd me off. I suppose it might work fine if sealed up, but then again what if it doesn't - the seller has a legit reason to refuse a refund.


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## TheTiddles (25 Feb 2011)

yep, send it back then, he's a crook!


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## Alex (25 Feb 2011)

Sorry to hear you got bum one Karl.  
I bought the smaller one. It arrived today, its an original dust deputy cyclone deluxe two buckets and hose. I'm absolutely thrilled with it. £65 delivered.
Karl looking at the price of cyclones I'd look at getting that one working, maybe get a bit of money knocked off.
What size is the inlet?

Cheers Alex.


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## Karl (25 Feb 2011)

Well that makes me feel $hitloads better Alex :lol: 

The inlet (top section) is 6", extractor connection end is 5". 

I've got a pair of extractors running in tandom which give a massive amount of suck, and I thought this cyclone would fit in well with the system.

I'm going to contact the seller seeking an offer, or it's going back.

Cheers

Karl


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## miles_hot (25 Feb 2011)

Karl

Let me know how you get on will you? I foresee a similar conversation 

Miles


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## Alex (25 Feb 2011)

Karl- I ask as I have the jet 2hp extractor which has 6" in/out and was seriously thinking cyclone. At the mo I've got pleated RB filter on and thein baffler, works fairly good.


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## knappers (26 Feb 2011)

My smaller one just arrived too.
Full Kit with two buckets, hose and all fittings. Works very well. Very happy.
Si


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## Karl (26 Feb 2011)

Si - is it a genuine Oneida?

Has anybody else received the Super Dust Deputy yet?

I've had a respone from the seller saying that he won't re-negotiate on the purchase price, so he's sending a courier to collect on Monday. 

Cheers

Karl


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## ondablade (26 Feb 2011)

To be a bit of a devil's advocate. Don't know how well or otherwise the Dust Deputy works, but without working through the minutiae the unit in the photo looks like a decent fabrication. The inlet is probably stitch welded the way it is to avoid distortion, and should seal up easily enough.

If it's accurately to a set of dimensions that work, then it's surely not a bad deal - even if it is made locally. 

'Works' can be a bit of a broad church, in that it's not hard to drop out the chips, but the very fine (dangerous) dust is another matter. Establishing this ideally needs testing the exhaust with a dust particle counter, so if it was me I'd be looking for evidence of this having been done. Since many of these particles are pretty much invisible the average punter saying their unit is great may not amount to this.

Some of the Oneida units are vertically a bit shorter than some would recommend, and the round inlet is said by some to be less than optimum too - but then you hear many positive reports about their stuff. The same goes for the Thien trash can separators.

Maybe the core issue is not so much the fabrication as this question of how well they work on fine dust (so that there is minimal carry over into the filters and out into the shop). It'd be nice if there was some independent test certification available, but even if there isn't they do seem to sell quite a few....


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## knappers (26 Feb 2011)

Yes Karl, it's genuine Oneida.

Si


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## Karl (26 Feb 2011)

Which makes it all the more frustrating. 

Ian - my unit wouldn't be any good with fine dust - there's daylight visible through some of the joints in the fab.

I hope other purchasers have better luck than I did.

Cheers

Karl


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## ondablade (26 Feb 2011)

OK Karl. All I'm suggesting is that if it's straight and dimensionally correct then the need to run a bead of silicone or whatever to seal the joints might not be a big deal - most ductwork fabricators use sealants and it's quite probable that this is what Oneida do anyway.

If on the other hand it's just a lousy fab masquerading as something else that's a different matter...


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## Karl (26 Feb 2011)

True Ian, but there are a couple of problems with that. 

If I start applying silicon to the unit, this gives the seller a perfect excuse not to give a refund. What happens if I use it and it turns out to be completely ineffective due to poor design/construction. I'm left with a non-functioning unit, and the seller could refuse a refund because it has been used/modified.

If the guy had been up front and stated that it wasn't original (unlike the smaller DD's which he has sold which appear to be genuine), i'm not sure i'd have bought in. It was only because the listing showed an image of a genuine Oneida cyclone that I bought it, because that's what I thought I was getting.

Cheers

Karl


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## ondablade (26 Feb 2011)

No prob Karl. If you can't for whatever reason confirm it's the real deal or at least a decent fab that dimensionally matches it or a good cyclone design you'd be well advised not to touch it...


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## Doug B (26 Feb 2011)

Karl,

Just a thought, take plenty of photos & measurements before you send it back & fabricate one yourself, or at least give me the specs when i see you & i`ll give it a go.


Cheers.


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## ondablade (26 Feb 2011)

That's pretty much what I've been driving at Karl/Doug. In the end a cyclone is basically a tin can with a few fairly simple internal parts. If it's reasonably well fabricated to the right dimensions then there's not a lot to go wrong.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as pedantic or pushy, but the reason I'm saying this is that even if you have a proven set of dimensions and go to a sheet metal place looking to have one made then under €100 is a good price - especially since it looks to be nicely painted too. There's even some additional value in the fact that it's ready made - no waiting, what you see is what you get and no uncertainties regarding whether or not the fab place will mess up or not...


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## Titus A Duxass (27 Feb 2011)

Just seal up the gaps with a temporary substance like plasticine which can be easily removed.
You could probably do it with masking tape.


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## Aled Dafis (27 Feb 2011)

Seeing as you have the cyclone, would it be cheeky to ask for you to measure it up and post some dimensions?

Cheers
Aled :wink:


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## ondablade (28 Feb 2011)

Hi Aled. I can't help on the Oneida stuff, but here's the link to Bill Pentz's dust collection pages from the US which if you click on the 'cyclone plan' link in the table at the top of the page will bring you to fully dimensioned drawings for his very well regarded DIY cyclone design: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm 

Work down the text and also check out the drawing and you'll find the approach he suggests for scaling the design to suit lower HP fans than the standard 5HP model he suggests for largish ducted systems. He also offered a miniature option to minimise filter blinding on shop vacuums (pictures here: http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/Mini+CV06/ see notes on this below) - and confirms that it too delivers very high % separation performance on very fine dust.

Here's some info on scaling down to the vacuum size: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullent ... light=cv06 More here: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclon ... loneSizing

The cyclone is widely reported as performing extremely well (it'd better as I'm mid install on a fullsize system), and has (in a smaller vacuum focused size) been tested for efficiency of dust separation by one of the US universities: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/index.p ... =page&id=4 (this is the report on the Clear Vue site - they are the company he has approved to offer the design commercially)

Clear Vue were reportedly threatened with legalities if they continued to sell the mini model for vacuum applications, and as a small company they couldn't risk it - so it's DIY only. (the whole thing got pretty controversial, and quite a few in the US were hugely unimpressed since the Pentz design was reportedly around before the other guys)

This is the link to the home page on the Pentz/Clear Vue user's forum http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/index.php - lots of photo installs, technical questions answered and more or less universally positive feedback. 

There's an awful lot of reading, but it's worth ploughing through the various sites mentioned as the information while unlikely to win prizes for concise writing is right on the nail and very comprehensive


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## The Bear (28 Feb 2011)

Ondablade

As someone who always champions the Bill Pentz way, how about a WIP on your build. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see this as it can seem a bit daunting when you look at his site.

Mark


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## ondablade (28 Feb 2011)

Can do on the WIP Mark, but bear in mind that my progress is a bit erratic as it's a part of a full workshop plan and build project that's got mixed up with the recurrence of a health/fatigue issue (seemingly now mostly sorted) and other responsibilities. So it'll be a little while yet before it's up and running.

The stage I'm at is that I've just finished installing the inverter to drive the fan in its enclosure (you don't necessarily need an inverter, but my supply is only 62A and I wanted to keep the start up amps down), and after lots of digging for information finally got it wired and mounted. The fan and cyclone location and layout are sorted, the locally sourced cyclone fabrications and Pentz/Clear Vue fan are in stock and ready for finish assembly, and the space cleared for them. The ducting layout is sorted, and all of the locally sourced ductwork, hose and fittings are also in stock.

Point me towards what interests you and I can post some photos. I'd been intending to do so, but was stalling until it was running in case of unforeseen issues.

On cyclone selection. I guess I'm in the same boat as any of you guys in that I relied on third party information to select the Pentz system - I've no axe to grind, other than perhaps that with a bit of HVAC and lots of design engineering in my background I'm not inclined to attach much weight to the claims of the branded/heavily marketed manufacturers of non-industrial (unregulated) woodworking dust systems. Their stuff tends to be riddled with weasel words. So I try to get the best handle I can on the technicalities/engineering (but in the end while this can get you quite a way, you have to rely to a fair degree on the skills of the original designer and what you read), and the likely trustworthiness of the source.

I guess it's perhaps a result the lack of clarity of his material, but I seem to detect a certain resistance to the Pentz approach and a preference for the branded/marketed kit around here.

The key selling points of the Pentz system for me were (a) Bill is technically competent and clearly not on the make - I've spoken to him several times and it was a labour of love for him (b) it's very widely used, and there's an enormous amount of really positive feedback out there on the Clear Vue and US woodworking forums - including by some testing with dust particle counters and the like; (c) it's been the subject of some (albeit limited) third party university testing to confirm its fine dust separation capability - and anyway seems to have been developed from a well established design model used for fine dusts in regulated environments in industry and (d) the free availability of information made it a DIY/local source option within reach of my budget.

Re. this thread - the cyclone selection decision isn't the complicated part per se. In that all of the majors seem judging by user feedback to work pretty well. (although I think the Pentz may be significantly better on very fine dust - he certainly claims this, and is the only one publishing third party test results) But it's basically a case of do your homework, and take your pick.

Another benefit of the Pentz layout is that it's pretty well proven to be highly scalable. This by Bill from the 'Cyclone Plan' link above: 'Innumerable people have built and purchased little 6” diameter cyclones to use with their 2.5” heavy duty shop vacuums. The medical school testing on these smaller units ends up being just as impressive than the separation on the larger units. These small 6” versions provide 99.9% separation efficiency on particles sized under 5-microns versus the closest competitor providing only 99.9% separation on 25-micron and larger particles. The real proof is in the results that woodworkers get with these in real use. Even shops that make multiple 55-gallon drums of MDF dust daily find they can go six months and still see almost no fine dust in their filters. The same is also true in terms of scaling this design to much larger. I designed one of these for a huge cement processing facility and they went from having to replace filters monthly to every five to six months, plus were able to use a much smaller horsepower motor. The owner of that facility said his cost savings in energy and filters pays him back more than he spent to build this unit every three months. I’ve heard similar reports from a plastics maker, a coffee bean roasting firm, and innumerable woodworkers. Many have even built these units with oversized cyclones to permit them to use smaller motors. Although I don’t particularly like this idea because too much fine dust is not captured if the blower does not move enough air and separation efficiency goes way down, many successfully power my cyclone design with 1.5 hp motors. Instead of building my recommended 18" diameter cyclone, those with 3 hp motors should make 20" diameter cyclones and those with 2 and even 1.5 hp motors should use 22” diameter cyclones. Often these bigger diameters end up requiring mounting the blower to the side as the result would be too tall with a top mounted blower, but regardless they still work very well. If you need a more powerful than 5 hp cyclone, have medical problems, or need to collect from more than one machine at a time, I recommend you seek professional engineering advice.'

The more complex issue and the reason that there is so much info on his pages is that in the end to maximise dust collection and separation performance takes a correctly specified and built total system - starting with the machine hoods, then the duct sizing and layout, the fan and cyclone itself, and the exhaust and filtering arrangements. 

The task (once the cyclone and fan are suitable) is broadly to maintain the correct air speed from one end to the other - mostly a matter of duct sizing and layout - but bearing in mind that even a very local restriction like a hood opening with play havoc with the airflow of the total system. No cyclone can work to its full efficiency on a system with other fundamental issues.....


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## The Bear (28 Feb 2011)

Ian

I would be interested in all the aspects of your build, including how you have built stuff, put it together, suppliers, tips and mistakes etc. Pretty much the same as any other detailed project on that forum page. I have nothing specific I want to know at this time, this type of thing is still an idea in my head, but it would be nice to see if I think its do-able. I think others would benefit from the same.

Mark


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## ondablade (28 Feb 2011)

OK Mark, but it'll be a done so far/blog like/reporting it more or less as it happens scenario and not a 'how to' since it's not been run yet and as a first time build I can't claim any particular expertise - but I'll start putting up some bits of information relating to aspects of the project. I'll have to fire up the camera and figure if I can put up sketches too, so it'll probably take a few days before anything appears.

Does anybody know how best to do this? Is it OK to run it as a thread, and keep on returning to it?


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## goldeneyedmonkey (28 Feb 2011)

Incidentially, I was looking over Oneida's store (USA based, not a UK outlet) and you can get the Dust Deputy (just the cyclone and it looks a fair bit smaller and is made from plastic), all shipped over from the states for a bit over £50 at the current exchange rate. The top of the cyclone looks to be only about 4" diameter (see here for an idea of the size of it roughly).
How big's the diameter of the top of yours Si? I wonder what the difference in performance is. 

I've asked for prices on the Oneida Dust Deputy Deluxe kit (the same as above + 2 drums and hoses etc.) & the Super Dust Deputy. I'll let you know what the prices are like. But I won't be purchasing anything for a while so won't be able to give any verdicts for a bit.

Cheers _Dan.


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## knappers (15 Mar 2011)

I keep meaning to measure the sizes of my DD. It's definitely bigger than 4" across - more like 8".

Karl, regarding the problems with the Super DD you bought from ebay.. I just found this thread on another forum :

"Picked up this baby from CT last week (Super DD). Cyclone with 2 convertors and a 2m hose all up for around $650. I can't really say the cyclone is very well made. Parts were welded together poorly and gaps (big gaps) are sealed with silicon."

Si.


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## ondablade (15 Mar 2011)

Ermmm... Just to confirm I will post as promised, but would prefer to wait a couple of weeks until I get started on installing the ductwork - I'm finishing the shop wiring off right now, and have got diverted into preparing a proposal for the local enterprise board.

If anybody wants input about what's done so far (the system is designed, and I have the fan, drive, locally sourced cyclone and ductwork all in stock and waiting for me to get to it, and the ducting layout sorted out) - I'd be happy to share. 

But bear in mind it's new ground for me too, and that none of it is yet tested....


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