# Marking gauge/mortise gauge woes ?



## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

A tip for 'noobs' and oldies  

The simplest solutions are often.....the simplest solutions 

The marking gauge is a simple ancient tool, while there are a number of 'refinements' out there-the basic model (pin) when used correctly will render the same end results as the more racier versions. The pin is round and pointy-a perfect shape when you think about it for following grain-the result of using it *incorrectly* will result in the *'line'* tracking the wood fibres-we've all done it and seen the results  

The solutions are varied (on price as well as design) :shock: 
Some 'solutions' use a blade/cutter to replace the pin, others use a 'wheel' 

The simple solution ?, the pin is supposed to be used as a pin, it makes dots.
While marking a mortise or tenon-make a line of dots, set the fence of the tool against the stock then roll it (ever wondered why the fence is of a rounded shape?) to mark the dot-then join the dots up with your wide chisel.

And remember, a marking gauge (one pin-i.e. used for half lap joints) and a mortise gauge (2 pins) are two different tools-marking should *always* be done off of one 'reference' face of the stock.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Mar 2013)

Why not just file the sides of the point to make a miniature knife?


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## chipmunk (7 Mar 2013)

The other way is to read the grain so that rather than allowing the point to follow the grain away from the line and towards the reference face, scribe so that the grain direction has the effect of pulling the scribing point away from the reference face so as to pull the gauge harder against the reference face.

In other words scribe against the grain direction when sloping down to the reference face. 

...or if you find it wandering off-line scribe in the other direction. :wink: 

...Much easier to do than to write down. :wink: 

Jon


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

phil.p":2faht4hf said:


> Why not just file the sides of the point to make a miniature knife?



You could do that Phil, but is it necessary ?



chipmunk":2faht4hf said:


> The other way is to read the grain so that rather than allowing the point to follow the grain away from the line and towards the reference face, scribe so that the grain direction has the effect of pulling the scribing point away from the reference face so as to pull the gauge harder against the reference face.
> 
> In other words scribe against the grain direction when sloping down to the reference face.
> 
> ...



What if the stock your using meant that you had no choice but to follow the given grain direction on a particular side ?


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2013)

What I do is always push a marking gauge away from me and in towards the workpiece. It's more positive than pulling towards. With practice you soon get to notice if it's following the grain. If it's a problem then start at the far end first and do the last 6" (away from you) and then the next, etc. working forwards but bringing it back in short lengths.
The other solution is to dip as you go forwards, with a sort of wrist twist, so the pin is lifting out of the grain every few inches and going back again.


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## bugbear (7 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":3cllj4xh said:


> A tip for 'noobs' and oldies
> 
> The simplest solutions are often.....the simplest solutions



The pin following the grain is the result of the forces on the pin "winning" against the restraining ability of the fence.

Jim Kingshott's technique to avoid this was to simply use multiple (hence shallow) passes. This is done by twisting the gauge, so that the depth of the pin is controlled by the gauge stem resting on the workpiece (for this reason, the pin should not protrude too much).

In actual use, this is very fast - just multiple passes and a twist of the wrist.

(logically, you could also apply more pressure to the fence, or use a larger fence, but JK's tricks works well).

Whilst we're on, another good marking gauge tip when marking other than the full length of the piece, is to "stab" the pin in at the ends of the line prior to marking. The gauge will stop nicely in these pits.

BugBear


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

bugbear":2b6hp2r9 said:


> barkwindjammer":2b6hp2r9 said:
> 
> 
> > A tip for 'noobs' and oldies
> ...



Thats a great tip BB
However you are all missing the point of my OP completely, I'm not looking for suggestions, I'm giving a solution which eliminates any other modification or technique.
I cant think of a simpler way of using these tools, there is no room for error-it just works, which in the end is also not really a necessity when you think about it, I cant think of a single joint that requires a 'one shot' perfect scribed line using a marking gauge.


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## Racers (7 Mar 2013)

Hi,

Knife edge is the way to go, mine work very well no grain following at all.
Coped from the ebony/lignum original in Hawthorn and rosewood with a silver steel knife.







Close up





Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Mar 2013)

Sorry, but I'd have thought that any of the above solutions would be quicker and easier than joining the dots.


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## chipmunk (7 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":2mop1fd7 said:


> What if the stock your using meant that you had no choice but to follow the given grain direction on a particular side ?



As Jacob says, I think you can always reverse the direction of travel of the marking guage to address this. 
If pulling the guage towards you causes the point to follow the grain then push the guage away from you and the grain direction ought to help you.

Jacob's also right though in that the grain direction on long sections may shift to and fro and so you may need to sub-divide the piece to get perfect results but it's not hard when you get into the swing of it. 

I don't think that the pin prick method you describe would give you the tell-tale reference you get when planing down to a guaged line. That would take some getting used to compared to conventional marked line, at least for me.

HTH
Jon


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

Racers":1477p434 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Knife edge is the way to go, mine work very well no grain following at all.
> Coped from the ebony/lignum original in Hawthorn and rosewood with a silver steel knife.
> ...


Those are indeed lovely Pete, but didn't you have to make them ? 



phil.p":1477p434 said:


> Sorry, but I'd have thought that any of the above solutions would be quicker and easier than joining the dots.



Ok, so you've obtained your guide lines, by which ever means, and the next tool you bring to that line is ?...........


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## bugbear (7 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":uu4071cy said:


> bugbear":uu4071cy said:
> 
> 
> > barkwindjammer":uu4071cy said:
> ...



I know you weren't looking for suggestions, but other people reading the thread might be interested in a variety of techniques. Spice of life, and all that.

In answer to your last semi-posed question, a cross halving joint is the most obvious example.

Fig 39.

http://www.basiccarpentrytechniques.com ... s%202.html

BugBear


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

I'm all for the 'horses for courses thing BB, all the various devices and techniques do work of course, my point is that a £1.99 Chinese made 'whayoowha' marking gauge is equal to a Lee Valley rollerflange if used in the correct way.


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":31oc3w6w said:


> I'm all for the 'horses for courses thing BB, all the various devices and techniques do work of course, my point is that a £1.99 Chinese made 'whayoowha' marking guage is equal to a Lee Valley rollerflange if used in the correct way.


Agree. These are spot on.


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## Scouse (7 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":1e7jtldd said:


> phil.p":1e7jtldd said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, but I'd have thought that any of the above solutions would be quicker and easier than joining the dots.
> ...



... but having to join the dots with a chisel just adds another process, when what's really required is to use the tool correctly; saves the time and effort of marking the line twice, surely.

A light touch on the pin pressure helps to avoid grain following too, concentrate effort on the fence.


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## Racers (7 Mar 2013)

Mine cost me a couple of quid for the silver steel, and you can get lots of knives from a length.
The wood was free.

Marking the length of tenons is very easy with a knife edge marking gauge. 

Pete


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

:lol: Ok, I will give you the last word Jacob 
A good old £5.75 + VAT British made 'J Marples' marking gauge is equal to a Lee Valley rollerflange !


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

Scouse":1u0uni6d said:


> barkwindjammer":1u0uni6d said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":1u0uni6d said:
> ...



...But the next tool your going to use after you've marked (with dots or a scratchy line) is your chisel !
there is no extra process


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

Racers":3nf8tuvn said:


> Mine cost me a couple of quid for the silver steel, and you can get lots of knives from a length.
> The wood was free.
> 
> Marking the length of tenons is very easy with a knife edge marking gauge.
> ...



This thread is for the benefit of 'noobs' too Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Mar 2013)

Why would you use a chisel on the marked lines on a tenon? That's why it's a line, not dots. So you can see where to saw.


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## barkwindjammer (7 Mar 2013)

Some people are confident enough to go straight at a tenon with a saw, when I do it I always 'notch' the marked line for the saw cuts, so the next implement in my hand after the marking gauge is a chisel


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## Cheshirechappie (7 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":1frul5iv said:


> Some people are confident enough to go straight at a tenon with a saw, when I do it I always 'notch' the marked line for the saw cuts, so the next implement in my hand after the marking guage is a chisel



That's the 'recommended' method for super-clean tenon shoulders - mark out, then with a razor-sharp paring chisel run one cut across the workpiece with the chisel's side parallel to the workpiece, and the flat face perpendicular and facing away from the tenon, towards the 'clean' piece of the workpiece. Finally, twist the chisel round in your hand, and run another cut to take out a 'v' trench on the waste. The final trench should be about 1 mm deep, and very clean-cut on the shoulder-line. Then flip the workpiece over, and do the same for the other tenon shoulder.

For 'ordinary' tenons, you wouldn't bother - just saw to the line, and clean up any 'fuzz' from the cut after assembling the job.

By the way, don't forget the cutting gauge for cross-grain marking. They work best with a 'u'-shaped knife kept very sharp and polished. They can be set up to make stringings by cutting thin strips from a batten, or to deepen a marked line before running a rebate plane along it.

To fine adjust the old-type wooden gauges, set them 'there or thereabouts' with a steel rule, tighten the thumbscrew or wedge lightly, then check the setting carefully, and refine it by holding the stock and knocking either end of the stem on the bench until the setting is spot-on. Then tighten the thumbscrew or wedge, final check with the rule, and if all well, off you go. Far quicker to do than type!


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## James-1986 (7 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":2ckzsvqk said:


> I cant think of a simpler way of using these tools, there is no room for error-it just works, which in the end is also not really a necessity when you think about it, I cant think of a single joint that requires a 'one shot' perfect scribed line using a marking guage.



Joining the dots is a good technique for neat marking out, but the dots are best joined up with a gauge.

Marking gauges are very accurate and more importantly give you repeated accuracy, I could mark out 100 half laps and they would all be identical. Plus I have a nice scribed line to put my chisel into or plane down to. You're not going to match the accuracy or speed of a gauge with a chisel, it would take forever to mark out a large tenon and it would be all over the place! 

The important thing about the marking gauge is that if you try and scribe a deep line on the first pass it *will* follow the grain, the harder the timber the worse this will be. Just a light scratch at first then deepen the scribe with a few more passes, it only takes a few seconds.

You also need firm pressure on the stock, I don't find much difference between pulling and pushing.


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## GazPal (8 Mar 2013)

I find these work best







Mortise beaver ready for setting out






Great for marking, tenoning and waste disposal






Plus they're ecologically friendly :wink: 

Not to be confused with the American version






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Light initial passes of the gauge, before committing with *deeper passes within working lines* to confirm markings. This helps minimise potentially unnecessary marks on finished surfaces and reduces problems when working with gnarly/wavy longitudinally grained timber.


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## adzeman (8 Mar 2013)

> Those are indeed lovely Pete, but didn't you have to make them ?


I nearly missed this thread, its somthing I have never thought about when I wandered I thought it was doem to my loss of consentration.

Those gauges are really nice and being in the market for a knife marking gauge but after seeing yours Pete might have a go. Did you post a work in progress on them? Would be interested.


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## Racers (8 Mar 2013)

Hi, Adzeman

No WIP but I do have a photo of the parts.






Its a head with a hole drilled through and a tapering slot cut in it to match the wedge, a length of dowel (I turned mine) with a flat on.
Make the wedge to deep and plain it down until it fits and is still deep enough to stop the dowel from turning.
The pin is 3mm silver steel filed down to a knife shape (like in David Charlsworth's book) hardened and tempered and fitted to an undersized hole.

Pete


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## James C (8 Mar 2013)

I tried this with students at school and they sometimes struggle with the pin grain problem. We have tried the dots method but they as beginning woodworkers have definitely found the light passes with increasing pressure the easiest to master and get the most consistent results from. 

We use marples pin gauges and mortise gauges.


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## adzeman (8 Mar 2013)

Thanks Pete very informative Next time at the timber yard will look out for scrap hardwood and will certainly give it a go.


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## bugbear (11 Mar 2013)

James C":m7ajw8uz said:


> I tried this with students at school and they sometimes struggle with the pin grain problem. We have tried the dots method but they as beginning woodworkers have definitely found the light passes with increasing pressure the easiest to master and get the most consistent results from.



If it's good enough for beginners AND Jim Kingshott, I guess that covers everyone!

BugBEar


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## Jelly (12 Mar 2013)

barkwindjammer":3b2lrtpp said:


> :lol: Ok, I will give you the last word Jacob
> A good old £5.75 + VAT British made 'J Marples' marking gauge is equal to a Lee Valley rollerflange !



More or less, they're both an index surface attached to a rod with a sharp thing on it...

In both tools accuracy is determined entirely by how well the user sets and checks the position of the sharp thing relative to the index surface, and how well they maintain consistent contact between the indexing surface and the reference face/edge of the workpiece.

My only marking woes are that my footprint marking gauge is sticking a bit at the minute, the "rod" as I termed it has swollen a little with my current workshop being unheated... I'm tempted to just periodically put it in the oven on a low heat to bring the MC back down, but taking a little material off with a plane might be a better long-term fix.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Mar 2013)

Try to dry it, lubricate it with some wax, maybe. Don't plane it - it'll be loose other times of the year.


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## Jelly (12 Mar 2013)

phil.p":rtxalrqt said:


> Try to dry it, lubricate it with some wax, maybe. Don't plane it - it'll be loose other times of the year.


 I've waxed it nicely, but no luck, I'll try warming it at 70 degrees for a short while then leaving it indoors overnight.


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## RogerBoyle (12 Mar 2013)

Jelly":2brkzsxv said:


> phil.p":2brkzsxv said:
> 
> 
> > Try to dry it, lubricate it with some wax, maybe. Don't plane it - it'll be loose other times of the year.
> ...



Just dont do it in a gas oven


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## adzeman (12 Mar 2013)

Just to let you know Pete took one of my marking gauges gave it a chisel point, works a treat thanks mate


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## GazPal (12 Mar 2013)

Jelly":15tsczwh said:


> phil.p":15tsczwh said:
> 
> 
> > Try to dry it, lubricate it with some wax, maybe. Don't plane it - it'll be loose other times of the year.
> ...




Keep it indoors for a week or so and you should find it loosens up and begins to run smoothly again, but you may need to strip wax/finish from end grain surfaces so the timber can reach equilibrium. Swings in relative humidity levels are notorious for causing such problems, but you'd be surprised just how much difference a minimal shift in humidity can make.

If the problem persists, beware removing too much stock, as you could find the problem shifts from one extreme to the other. A very light shaving or two using a cabinet scraper (Read card scraper) or a few swipes using steel wool may be all it needs. :wink:


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## Racers (12 Mar 2013)

adzeman":3dykl9rj said:


> Just to let you know Pete took one of my marking gauges gave it a chisel point, works a treat thanks mate



Hi, Adzeman

No problem, its a David Charlsworth tip originally.


Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Mar 2013)

Racers":3sh3lerm said:


> adzeman":3sh3lerm said:
> 
> 
> > Just to let you know Pete took one of my marking gauges gave it a chisel point, works a treat thanks mate
> ...


I was taught it at school 45yrs ago.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (15 Mar 2013)

Here is an aid to add to your cutting gauge.

One of my favourite gauges is the Kinshiro style. I have a wonderful mortice gauge that does double duty as a cutting gauge. I've built a few based on this one. Here is one ..






The knife is ground from a 3/16" HSS rod. 






OK, that is all basic stuff. 

When using a cutting gauge it is important to ensure that the knife is perfectly aligned - parallel - with the fence. If it is even slightly skew, the knife edge wil drag and cause tear out.

To get it parallel, grind a slot at the upper end of the rod. Use a screwdriver to turn it until it is cutting as you wish. There is a screw at the front to prevent any movement.






Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTo ... auges.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (15 Mar 2013)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> When using a cutting gauge it is important to ensure that the knife is perfectly aligned - parallel - with the fence. If it is even slightly skew, the knife edge wil drag and cause tear out.
> 
> To get it parallel, grind a slot at the upper end of the rod. Use a screwdriver to turn it until it is cutting as you wish.
> 
> Derek



Ahem; that idea is uncredited, an oversight I'm sure.

BugBear


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (15 Mar 2013)

Hi BB

Did you do that in your cutting gauge? If so, it must be my unconscious at play. My conscious mind did not recall. Quickly ... post a picture here for us (me) to see how you did this. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (15 Mar 2013)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Hi BB
> 
> Did you do that in your cutting gauge? If so, it must be my unconscious at play. My conscious mind did not recall. Quickly ... post a picture here for us (me) to see how you did this.
> 
> ...



Here's a memory jogger  

post679251.html?hilit=slot#p679251

BugBear


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (15 Mar 2013)

BB!! The idea DID originate in that discussion we had. And only 12 months ago! Where is the memory going?! :shock: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## barkwindjammer (15 Mar 2013)

Lovely tool Derek, at least you have the bevel on your pin facing the right way


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