# Sash windows



## rich1911 (2 Feb 2019)

I'm in need of new/refurbished sash windows!

Initially a pair of large triple sashes, 2250x1700mm.

I also want to go double glazed.

Quotes are comming in for refurb or replacement at £9500 for the two windows.

I have a total of 4 triples and 4 large bays that will all need doing eventually, so total cost is around £50k.

With time and space on my side, I am reseaching the DIY route. 

This blog shows it can be done, even with minmal equipment. Initially I had assumed I'd need a decent combi machine as a minium, but this guy manages with some cunning jigs and about 500 quids worth of machines!

(can't post a link - but google diy sliding sash blog should get you close)

I'd be interested in hearing view an opinions on this, as well as any other useful links etc.

I have the classic joinery books and have a good understanding (now) of the layout and construction of a sash. I can also remove one of the old windows and take it to bits!

Cheers!


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Feb 2019)

A couple more posts and you'll be able to post links, send PMs etc.


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## rich1911 (2 Feb 2019)

phil.p":172ctyxd said:


> A couple more posts and you'll be able to post links, send PMs etc.



hope so! I can put a photo of said windows on then!


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## thetyreman (2 Feb 2019)

I'd be concerned about how long it would take me to make one, let alone loads of them, you are brave if you take this on as a DIY project.


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## RobinBHM (2 Feb 2019)

It can be done, not sure about for £500 of tools though.

Your easiest solution is to do a thread on here and try and glean the information. The secret to making it straightforward is to get a joiner give you a set of drawings / breakdowns using modern materials like draughtseals.

Alternatively learn how to measure and install, then buy the windows direct from a nanufacturer and install yourself.


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## Trevanion (2 Feb 2019)

That's an ambitious project but if you reckon you can do it, all the power to you!

Look at the prices you were quoted they don't seem totally unfair for the actual size and awkwardness of the work. I've made and fitted full gable end oak frames with over 300kg of glass and I still shudder about fitting large sash windows, mostly due to the fact of having one drop 2 stories when I was fitting one during my apprenticeship. You wouldn't believe the noise when it hit the ground, and the noise of the boss afterwards!

Jacob here is pretty clued up on box sash so it might be worth picking his brain on it, I suspect he'll be along shortly.


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## rich1911 (2 Feb 2019)

Trevanion":ehfj2acj said:


> That's an ambitious project but if you reckon you can do it, all the power to you!
> 
> Look at the prices you were quoted they don't seem totally unfair for the actual size and awkwardness of the work. I've made and fitted full gable end oak frames with over 300kg of glass and I still shudder about fitting large sash windows, mostly due to the fact of having one drop 2 stories when I was fitting one during my apprenticeship. You wouldn't believe the noise when it hit the ground, and the noise of the boss afterwards!
> 
> Jacob here is pretty clued up on box sash so it might be worth picking his brain on it, I suspect he'll be along shortly.



Yep, I have no issues with the quotes. Everyone I asked quoted £9500 for 2 windows, to within £200 so that's defo the price.

Roughly I would guess £2000 materials, 70 hours @ £35ph, £1000 to fit. Margin 50%, +VAT = £9810

As I'm not working, I don't really want to spend £50k on someone else to do something I could be doing, even if it takes me 3 times longer! 

I have collated a load of drawings showing sections etc, with various draft proofing.

The guy in the blog made his with a bench planer, table for his router, a mortiser and a cheap table saw. I'm not saying that's a good way to go, but it does show what can be done. I was thinking of getting a decent combi machine, even spending £5k on tooling will still be cheaper than getting 2 windows made. Once I have made 12 sashes, I reckon I will be well on the way to doing the rest!

I'd like to put some drawings on here and pick a few brains about things like air gaps and drain holes in the sashes, best joints to use in the sashes and where the pulley stile meets the cill etc.

Many people make these windows, some because they can, some because its a trade, it's not impossible. It will just take time, which I have plenty of!


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## deema (2 Feb 2019)

I’m going back a few years (15) when I lived in Yorkshire, Uriah Woodhead (Bradford) used to machine and sell all the sections you would require. They operated a six cutter and other machines and converted stuff into more ‘profitable’ sections for the local joiners. It was always in stock. You just had to make the joints which cut down the effort tremendously and made it far more profitable. I havent looked for anyone since who provides the same service as I now machine myself anything I want.


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## rich1911 (3 Feb 2019)

deema":1w7yh329 said:


> I’m going back a few years (15) when I lived in Yorkshire, Uriah Woodhead (Bradford) used to machine and sell all the sections you would require. They operated a six cutter and other machines and converted stuff into more ‘profitable’ sections for the local joiners. It was always in stock. You just had to make the joints which cut down the effort tremendously and made it far more profitable. I havent looked for anyone since who provides the same service as I now machine myself anything I want.



I did wonder if I could buy ready make profiles in Accoya, but not found any yet. Mainly cladding.

Not sure if any local joiners would be interested it making it for me!


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## RobinBHM (3 Feb 2019)

If you were local, I would do them -we make box sashes etc

you might find somebody local to you though.

before you do though please please please come on here and ask how to give a joiner a cutting list.....

I get builders / site carpenters giving me muddled lists all the time. A list you want for box sashes would get awfully confusing  

have a look at reddiseals and mighton products for staff bead, parting bead etc etc.


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## rich1911 (3 Feb 2019)

RobinBHM":3iqm7tkt said:


> If you were local, I would do them -we make box sashes etc
> 
> you might find somebody local to you though.
> 
> ...



Hi Robin, Thanks for the offer! 

I've spent ages looking at what's on offer on the Mighton site. Will check Reddiseals too. Cheers!


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## thomashenry (4 Feb 2019)

What's wrong with the existing windows - where are they rotten? A lot of the time with sash windows, the sill and the bottom of the box sides will be rotten due to incorrect paint being used, portland cement, etc. Quite often the sashes themselves will be perfectly salvagable with some fairly easy TLC.

This summer I replaced/refurbished a sash window. The two sashes were ok, so I stripped them right back to bare wood, took them apart and then reglued and reglazed them.

The sashbox was rotten in the way I described, so I took it apart, kept the good timber and made a new box using that salvaged timber and new timber for the sill, outer faces, and stiles. Making a sash box is really not that hard and requires no difficuly joinery. I did mine entirely with standard hand tools.

I refitted everything, using folding wedges, oakum and lime mortar instead of foam and portland cement. Painted with linseed paint.

It was a fairly lengthy process with lots of stages, but none of it was difficult. Of course, if you need to make new sashes, then there is a significant extra task involved. I will be attempting that this summer with another of my windows.

Total cost for the job was no more than £120 including glazing, timber and paint.


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## rich1911 (4 Feb 2019)

thomashenry":2793v4oq said:


> What's wrong with the existing windows - where are they rotten? A lot of the time with sash windows, the sill and the bottom of the box sides will be rotten due to incorrect paint being used, portland cement, etc. Quite often the sashes themselves will be perfectly salvagable with some fairly easy TLC.
> 
> This summer I replaced/refurbished a sash window. The two sashes were ok, so I stripped them right back to bare wood, took them apart and then reglued and reglazed them.
> 
> ...



That certainly is an option. The cills are shot. The sash boxes have all been repaired in the past, so there are scarf joints at the bottom 6 inches. These are all shot. 

The sashes are mostly ok. Two have rot thats gone through the bottom rails and one stile. I want to fit double glazing so they all have to come out and either be re-machined or replaced.

The sash weights will all need replacing.

I want to fit draught strips.

So maybe I could refurb. But to be honest, I'd like to replace with Accoya and forget about them for a few years!

One quote I had was for refurb, but it was exactly (like within £100) of replacement, which is odd. But £9500 to refurb 2 windows maybe gives an idea of how much work there is...

Once I get the windows out and apart I can assess the actual state of the word and if it's fine, I will reuse it.

My windows are certainly well beyond a work over with a burr and a load of filler!


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## deema (4 Feb 2019)

There is usually far more work involved in refurbishing than remaking. If it were me, I’d just bite the bucket are remake. When they are ready you can remove the old and fit the new in a few hours. If your looking at refurbishment you are likely to be without the window for sometime. 
However, if you repair you won’t need a FENSA certificate / checked by building control and all of the other highly useful regulation on window design that is mandatory these days. Before I get shot down for decrying the wonderful regulatory environment I submit in my defence as evidence that anyone and I mean anyone can pay a relatively small fee and become FENSA registered and fit windows and if they are lucky get checked once a millennium without any training or experience. Equally I’ve yet to find a definidition if what refurbishment means. Taken to an extreme it seems as long as you use any part of the old window it ticks the box (down to a single srew!)


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## MikeG. (4 Feb 2019)

Mumford and Wood make first rate sash windows in Essex, using hi tech machinery and all the latest seals etc..........and the bonus is that they have technical drawings on their website. Most of the drawings you have, I'd bet, have a detail for single glazing only, but M&W have them for double glazing. Lots of timber specialists stock the various mouldings and beads etc, so you won't need to produce your own. 

'twere it me, I would first have a go at a small window round the back of the building somewhere, and you'll soon know not only what is involved, but how feasible it is to scale the process up with your kit and skills. I would have said that the thing which will distinguish the Mumford and Woods of this world from you is the quality of the finish. A factory applied microporous finish is a million miles away from the undercoat and gloss combination which wrecked so many sashes at the end of the last century. If you have room for a temporary spray booth I would certainly suggest looking into that. Otherwise, the next best thing is brushed on Bedec MultiSurface Paint.


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## rich1911 (4 Feb 2019)

MikeG.":3hr3zkas said:


> Mumford and Wood make first rate sash windows in Essex, using hi tech machinery and all the latest seals etc..........and the bonus is that they have technical drawings on their website. Most of the drawings you have, I'd bet, have a detail for single glazing only, but M&W have them for double glazing. Lots of timber specialists stock the various mouldings and beads etc, so you won't need to produce your own.
> 
> 'twere it me, I would first have a go at a small window round the back of the building somewhere, and you'll soon know not only what is involved, but how feasible it is to scale the process up with your kit and skills. I would have said that the thing which will distinguish the Mumford and Woods of this world from you is the quality of the finish. A factory applied microporous finish is a million miles away from the undercoat and gloss combination which wrecked so many sashes at the end of the last century. If you have room for a temporary spray booth I would certainly suggest looking into that. Otherwise, the next best thing is brushed on Bedec MultiSurface Paint.



Hi Mike, 

Yes I have all the files from Mumford's site and I am also waiting for a quote from them!

You are right, they do show a DGU in the frames. They also show a bit of an odd meeting rail arrangement where there the profile of the meeting rails is square. There's no wedge shaped side to lock the top and bottom together. Instead there is some sort of raised seal strip. There is actually a gap between the top and bottom sash meeting rails, filled by the seal strips. It would be interesting to see what that actually looks like. The drawings are only sections not assembly drawings of course so there are no details of joints etc. 

They also show that the sashes have glazing beads on the inside, not the outside. There's also a drain in the top sash meeting rail but not one in the bottom sash bottom rail.

There are three seals on the top rail to head and bottom rail to cill, so draught proofing must be good. 

Oddly there are seals on both sides of the upper sash set into the beads but only on one side of the lower sash set into the outer lining. Maybe that's just missing off the drawing but I'd expect seals on both sides of the sash stiles. one on the outer lining, two on the prting bead and one on the inner lining. 

They do fit a seal between the sash stiles and the pulley style though.



I do have room to set up a spray booth for some Teknos paint. Our Orangery joinery was all sprayed and it is a very nice smooth finish. (until the panel pins holding the beads in went rusty... but thats another story...)

We had some windows made a few years ago and the guy swore by Sandolin paint. What a load of rubbish that was! Didn't even last 2 years.


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## doctor Bob (4 Feb 2019)

Have a look at westbury windows and garden rooms in south woodham ferrers.
John Mumford sold his company a few years ago and now works for Westbury, their windows are better than mumford and wood in my opinion.
I bought 20 weighted sash windows, 2 doors and a set of french doors 2 years ago and they were very good value (way less than your quote), I went down and haggled with them.
Amazing quality, I have a furniture business and was going to make them myself but I'm delighted I bought them in the end.
Perfect in everyway.


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## thomashenry (4 Feb 2019)

rich1911":auphwohg said:


> thomashenry":auphwohg said:
> 
> 
> > What's wrong with the existing windows - where are they rotten? A lot of the time with sash windows, the sill and the bottom of the box sides will be rotten due to incorrect paint being used, portland cement, etc. Quite often the sashes themselves will be perfectly salvagable with some fairly easy TLC.
> ...



£4750 to refurbish a window is just insane money. Insane. It’s really not hard or expensive - just takes a little while.

I’d avoid double glazing though - horrible stuff IMO. Also, I’m totally unsold on Acoya. My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine.

Incorrect paint and use of materials like Portland cement, expandable foam etc are the reasons cills rot.


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## Trevanion (4 Feb 2019)

thomashenry":27jczd6a said:


> My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine.



Except that the pine they had 150 years ago is 150 times the quality of any pine you could get your hands on today.



thomashenry":27jczd6a said:


> I refitted everything, using folding wedges, oakum and lime mortar instead of foam and portland cement. Painted with linseed paint.



This is the correct way to do this but is also the most time consuming and laborious method. You could never do it this way and expect to make any money as people who tend to buy the windows have no clue about it and just want it as cheap as possible. If you're twice the price of everyone else, you'll never get any work.

As much as I would love to spend a week waiting for paint to dry, another hour per window ramming oakum into the window voids and then spend half a day mixing lime cement, it really isn't economical on a professional scale.


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## thomashenry (4 Feb 2019)

Trevanion":39m05dci said:


> thomashenry":39m05dci said:
> 
> 
> > My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine.
> ...



I agree that people aren’t generally willing to pay for it, hence all the problems so many windows now have. But if the OP is willing to do the work himself, it’s well worth doing IMO.

As for the the pine - I’ve normally been able to keep myself in old reclaimed pine. On my street alone, 5 houses must have had loft conversions in the last 5 years, with each one resulting in lots of rafters and some purlins ending up in skips, lovely 150 year old pine. My local reclaimed wood yard (Oxford wood recycling) normally has plenty of this sort of thing too. 

This is all extra work of course, it needs denailing, planing and re sawing but if the OP find he only needs to make the boxes and doesn’t need to make any sashes, it’s eminently doable.


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## rich1911 (5 Feb 2019)

thomashenry":wyw5hjat said:


> Trevanion":wyw5hjat said:
> 
> 
> > thomashenry":wyw5hjat said:
> ...



I have a shed full of reclaimed wood, in fact the shed is made from reclaimed wood too!

On the issue of refurbishment, is there a way to do a scarf joint tht wont fail in years to come? 

To me it seems better to replace a cill or box lining than trying to fit a different bit of wood into it.


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## MikeG. (5 Feb 2019)

rich1911":2qqkiwzo said:


> ........On the issue of refurbishment, is there a way to do a scarf joint tht wont fail in years to come?.........



In a window? No. In oak framing, there are dozens of ways.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Feb 2019)

thomashenry":45m928ok said:


> ... My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine...


I bet there are very few people who can find 50 year old ones that are still sound.


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## rich1911 (5 Feb 2019)

phil.p":27nfol20 said:


> thomashenry":27nfol20 said:
> 
> 
> > ... My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine...
> ...



Ha! Yes indeed.

We have some sashes that are probably 120 years old and they are fine. Some that were maybe 30 years old which were rotten and some that are less than 10 years old and are rotting...


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## doctor Bob (5 Feb 2019)

It's great having 150 year old sashes, but I bet they are as drafty as ..........

They just weren't designed with draft free in mind in 1860's.
I had original ones in the house I demolished 1850's, just not worth lighting a fireas the drafts it caused through the windows were horrendous and the rattle it created was deafening. 

The new ones are just so much better.


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## thomashenry (5 Feb 2019)

doctor Bob":2650hozv said:


> It's great having 150 year old sashes, but I bet they are as drafty as ..........
> 
> They just weren't designed with draft free in mind in 1860's.
> I had original ones in the house I demolished 1850's, just not worth lighting a fireas the drafts it caused through the windows were horrendous and the rattle it created was deafening.
> ...



Trivial DIY job to fit parting and staff beads with brush pile inserts. No draughts, no rattles.


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## doctor Bob (5 Feb 2019)

thomashenry":35l7rc99 said:


> doctor Bob":35l7rc99 said:
> 
> 
> > It's great having 150 year old sashes, but I bet they are as drafty as ..........
> ...



Indeed, but not worth it on a house to be demolished. Anyway, not detracting from the thread but having had old ones and new ones I really think there is no comparison, however I now have double glazing and having viewed about 20 different companies windows, I think i have a top end set of windows and maybe I wasn't comparing to a top window of 1850's, such as a manor house etc. I'm not an expert, furniture is my game, so just my observation on my windows.


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## thomashenry (5 Feb 2019)

doctor Bob":xacpghz0 said:


> thomashenry":xacpghz0 said:
> 
> 
> > doctor Bob":xacpghz0 said:
> ...



True


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## doctor Bob (5 Feb 2019)

This is the old house,
front, only one broken window pane.








Back, nice polycarbonate window and one window with 3 hardboard patches masticed on






Bloody hell it was a cold house


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## thomashenry (5 Feb 2019)

doctor Bob":34oze13h said:


> This is the old house,
> front, only one broken window pane.
> 
> 
> ...



Stunning house, though.


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## doctor Bob (5 Feb 2019)

New house, very nearly identical with a side extension of 50% and loft rooms.






Can you see why I prefer new windows


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## sammy.se (5 Feb 2019)

I can't tell the difference 



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## thomashenry (5 Feb 2019)

doctor Bob":14q0uf60 said:


> New house, very nearly identical with a side extension of 50% and loft rooms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's lovely!


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## Chip shop (5 Feb 2019)

doctor Bob":1bqh5a3b said:


> New house, very nearly identical with a side extension of 50% and loft rooms.
> 
> Snip
> 
> Can you see why I prefer new windows



Stunning. I am seriously envious. Did you do the project management yourself?


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## rich1911 (5 Feb 2019)

This is where we are. Sometimes when its windy outside, you can feel the breeze inside!


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## nabs (5 Feb 2019)

about 20 years ago I lived in a 2 up 2 down victorian semi with sash windows all round, every one of which was painted shut and had rotten cills. To my untrained eyes they were write-offs and I got several quotes to have them all replaced with upc. Then a neighbour pointed out they could be refurbished and I got the Timber Window Company to just that - from memory the refurb costs were less than the upc replacements (although they had to be repainted - not cheap!)

I had no interest in woodwork at the time and with hindsight I wish I had paid more attention - I remember they removed all the windows, stripped them of paint, removed and replaced any rotten wood and then reglazed them with thin greenhouse glass to keep something like the look of the original (hand made?) panes - sounds just like what you did with your first two. What surprised me was how little rot there was, despite them obviously being pretty badly neglected for a number of years (decades?)

Anyhow they were as good as new when finished, gliding up and down perfectly and it was very pleasing to know they could be good for another 100 years (also a narrow escape as the plastic windows would have looked dreadful). 

If I had the skills and the time (I don't have either!) it is the kind of job I think I'd find really satisfying, particularly since you could do it stages without lots of time pressure.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Feb 2019)

Years ago I lived in a '50s bungalow overlooking the N. Cornwall coast - in the winter we'd be cold with the heating on full and two open fires blazing. When the wind was up our reflections in the lounge window would go up and down a foot and the carpet lifted a rosewood dining table and eight chairs clean off the floor. :shock:  One day on my motorbike I ducked a full dustbin blowing across the road - I should have realised how windy it was when I put the cat out and she blew across the garden.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Feb 2019)

nabs":1e28ros2 said:


> ... and then reglazed them with thin greenhouse glass to keep something like the look of the original (hand made?) panes ...



One reason for doing this is that often there isn't room the box frame for heavy enough weights to balance a heavier sash, also sometimes is there isn't much depth in the rebates.


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## Mmmmark (22 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Have a look at westbury windows and garden rooms in south woodham ferrers.
> John Mumford sold his company a few years ago and now works for Westbury, their windows are better than mumford and wood in my opinion.


Can you provide some details on this? We looked at the Mumford London showroom and liked what we saw. Westbury doesn't have a London show room, so it's a bit of a trek. But some details might help us know if the trek would be worth while.


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## Baja-king (22 Apr 2021)

Building sash windows is a straight forward affair. I bought a Victorian house in 1997 that needed 22 replacement windows, I bought a book and dismantled an old one then renewed all of them with draft excluders etc. Saved a small fortune


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## doctor Bob (22 Apr 2021)

Mmmmark said:


> Can you provide some details on this? We looked at the Mumford London showroom and liked what we saw. Westbury doesn't have a London show room, so it's a bit of a trek. But some details might help us know if the trek would be worth while.


The windows are perfect, made on CNC's very very accurate, made in accoya. Come finished with a ten year paint garantee.
Mine have been in 5 years and still slide beautifully, look new.
Couple of balance issues with 2 windows, sorted very quickly.
Great company.


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## Mmmmark (22 Apr 2021)

Are you able to take photos of the weather seals? Having had a bad install (will not name company), 1cm gaps around parting bead (instead of standard 3mm) and stuck on strips, really bad draughts when windy and it would rattle and bang as you slid it. I want to get something quality this time. See first 3 images, of poor installation (got refund).

I have photos of TimbaWood (two products from them) and Mumford Wood, which I also attached. I've looked at CAD drawings of George Barnsdale, but would need to get photos. I think I have a preference for hardened foam or nylon, than piles, as it is less visible and apparently have better acoustics - when fitted to new installs. I did like the over all build of mumford, but the weather piles are far more visible than the nylon troops of the TimbaWood. There was a second TimbaWood product with much more visible foam, but it did an L shape around the top of the parting bead, which i had not seen before - so zero draughts.


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## monster (22 Apr 2021)

Hi Rich, The first bit of proper carpentry I did was to make a triple sash window for my own house a few years ago and I have just this week started to make 3 off double sash windows out of Accoya which I have bought rough sawn. I haven't paid to much for machinery / tools and have accumulated what I need along the way. I would encourage you to get a planer thicknesser as it gives you so much freedom allowing you to plane up whatever dimensions you need. So I'd encourage you to give it a go!


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