# Tap & die set advice, please.



## MikeG. (7 Mar 2019)

Are they all born equal, or is there something I should be looking out for?


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## CHJ (7 Mar 2019)

If you want to have a reasonable life out of them (long term use) Make sure they are HSS and from a quality supplier.

Cheap sets are likely to be Carbon Steel, often quite good and sharp on the clean cutting front and ideal for thread clean-up and the occasional use in softer materials, but be prepared for loosing their cutting performance if used regularly and Breaking if not used with care.

A lot of folks start by purchasing a Carbon steel kit in a reasonable case(steel) and replace often used pieces with higher quality HSS as and when they loose performance or break.

Broken Dies are no problem, they just fall apart, a Broken tap is a far more serous problem as they invariably are impossible to remove as they break because the are jammed tight in the hole being tapped.

It is not impossible to Break a HSS Tap, but you are really into the 'used without due care and attention' world if you do with a reasonable quality brand.


What is often forgotten is a set of CORRECT sized Tapping Drills to go with the taps, for some obscure reason it is rare to find them supplied with the taps in sets.


Tapping kits often have only two taps of each size Taper and Finish.
Better for blind holes and less risk of breaking one, is a set of three taps in each size, Taper, Intermediate and Finish.


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## MikeG. (7 Mar 2019)

Blimey, there's more to this than I thought. Thanks.


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## CHJ (7 Mar 2019)

A basic set like this is OK for cleaning up threads and cutting new ones with care in the most commonly used metric sizes.





I keep a set of Correct Sized Tapping drills in the base of the box (and some odd ball 'special' taps and dies)




For heavier use and quantity repeat work I have sets of individual sizes in the lathe tooling racks (and spares) and better quality Tap and Die holders , but the box is a handy pick up and go set.

Of course if you are handling older stuff then the collection of thread forms and sizes is almost endless.


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## Lons (7 Mar 2019)

It depends on how serious you are Mike, what you want to do with them in what materials and how often. 

I absolutely agree that if possible buy decent HSS taps but if your projects are mainly for just a few sizes I wouldn't buy a set as the majority will remain unused, better imo to just buy what you want but better quality.
Good ones aren't cheap but Chronos might be worth a look and if you watch fleabay carefully yo can often pick up quality industrial job lots.

That said, I have a set that's now at least 30 years old and a mixed collection of others I've picked up over the years, bought a few more at Harrogate show in November. The ones I use regularly are 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10mm but there are occasions I need to match a thread.
My metalwork is just odd projects and repairs / modifications so a very light user.


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## Steve Maskery (7 Mar 2019)

Just to add to Chas' excellent reply [Edit - and the others while I was typing], a Zeus book will help with finding the correct drilling size and you might also see Intermediate taps referred to as Second taps.
Also a tin of cutting compound will make your life a lot easier. One tin will last a woodworker for life.

S


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## Lons (7 Mar 2019)

That's a much nicer looking set than mine Chas!


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## deema (7 Mar 2019)

The only thing to add to what has been said before is that HSS taps of the smaller size will break in a heart beat with any lateral force or if they are not frequently withdrawn and cleaned of swarf.

I’d only ever buy eactly what you you need, 4mm to 10mm are usually the predominantlay used. I’d recommend Dorma (expensive) for production use or Presto for home use. The best quality tap and die holders are also extremely beneficial.


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## Just4Fun (7 Mar 2019)

As an aside, I made some jigs recently and tapped holes in wood using a cheapo set of taps and these worked fine. It seems to me that when you have taps & dies you find uses for them you didn't initially plan.


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## Rorschach (7 Mar 2019)

I buy what I need, though I did purchase a very inexpensive set of spiral taps from China just to test them out. M3-M12 less than £10 for the set. They are my new favourite taps, superb quality, sharp and work great. They might not have the DIN spec for industry but for the home shop they are incredible value.


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## Eric The Viking (7 Mar 2019)

To echo Steve's point - Trefolex rocks!

Unless you are doing something odd like making small steam engines, you'll find you only need a very few sizes anyway. I bought only as/when I needed, and better quality sets of three taps at a time. I think the Chinese manufacturers often throw in sizes like M7 because they make the set look good, but you'll probably never ever use them as they're non standard. And one really useful one you never get in a set is M3.5 for electrical boxes...*

One trick I've seen toolmakers do is to grind off the nose of the third (bottoming) tap, to get it to cut further down into a blind hole. I've got a couple of mine like that. Obviously you can change the hardness if you're not careful to keep it cool when grinding.

Only the far end of the tap actually does any cutting (the tapered bit). The rest of it supports and drives the cutting end and probably polishes the cut thread a bit. So if you are looking at taps to buy, see what the tapered part looks like - if there are chips to the cutting edges or they're not well shaped, avoid. 

If you go down the "assemble a kit myself" route, it's worth having a couple of different types of tap holders. I've got both the long handle and tommy-bar types, as they are convenient in different situations. It's also much nicer to use the pillar drill when practical - chuck the tap, remove the belts and use the pulley as a handwheel. It keeps the alignment spot on so you get a nicer thread. I've occasionally hung a weight off one of the quill advance handles, to defeat the spring and maintain a downward pressure. Putting a slight countersink on the hole also helps the tap start.

HTH, E.

... really old boxes are 4BA, which is annoyingly close to M3.5. Both threads will jam if you try to use the wrong mating thread, and you can't usually re-tap any 4BA hole to M3.5 as there's not enough meat left. You can get M3.5 taps with a glued-on handle though, for cleaning threads.


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## MikeG. (7 Mar 2019)

Very useful stuff, folks. Thanks very much. I shall digest, and then start looking around at what is out there. Mine would only be for very occasional use, but I've got a router-plane build in mind at the moment, and I want a screw depth setting arrangement. Either a tap or a die, depending on the design, is likely to be necessary.


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## Beau (7 Mar 2019)

I went for this set from Tilgear https://www.tilgear.info/kal032tds--kal ... egory_id=0

Found them more than good enough for little projects with the toughest of putting some 12mm threads into the cast table of the Felder to give more fence positions.


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## Eric The Viking (7 Mar 2019)

I like Tilgear - have bought from them in the past and been pleased.

Brass takes threads really nicely and easily. If that's all you want it for, an inexpensive set should be fine. Stainless and cast iron, however, can be rather awkward, especially when hand tapping. 

I've done the latter a few times (repairing old fireplaces), and it's not awfully nice. Would politely suggest a bit of practice beforehand in that event, and using the best quality taps you can find easily. It's the crunchy feeling that tends to be qite offputting...


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Mar 2019)

https://www.ukdrills.com/taps-and-dies
https://www.ukdrills.com/hss-drills/hss ... drill-bits
are worth a look.


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## Racers (7 Mar 2019)

Get the sizes you need not a set, I would only get HSS not carbon steel. 
Most of mine came from car boot sales. 

Pete


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## porker (8 Mar 2019)

These guys are good for individual taps and dies https://www.tracytools.com/


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## Inspector (8 Mar 2019)

Worth mention that solid hex dies are usually for thread chasing and split round dies meant for cutting new threads. There are of course rules to every exception.

Pete


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## Welsh Wizard (16 Mar 2019)

helpful thread - thanks all


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## MusicMan (16 Mar 2019)

Lots of good advice there. Just a couple of points:

1. When getting taps it is really useful to get so-called 'progressive' or 'graduated' sets. The starter tap is not only more tapered at the start but is a thinner diameter, and they progress as you get to the final size. Sometimes hard to determine from an advert. The set below is graduated and was cheap on eBay though there is no indication on the box!





2. Brass is very easy to tap or thread, aluminium is harder (lubricate with WD40) steel and cast iron are not too bad (use cutting fluid), stainless steel is terrible (cutting fluid and good quality sets). For a nice looking and smooth plane adjuster I suggest getting a bronze rod (bit stronger than brass, but that would be second best.

3. When tapping, get used to taking a half-turn cut, then backing off the tap till you feel the back of the flutes on the tap cutting off the scarf (hard to describe, easy to feel). Otherwise it will clog up and jam, and ruin the thread.

4. When die cutting (much harder to get a uniform thread rather than a drunkard's walk) make sure you have a good tapered lead-in to the thread. Don't rely on the taper of the die itself. You can always start with a longer piece and cut off the taper afterwards.

5. Where possible use a machine of some sort to keep it all square, especially when starting and especially with a die. A lathe with dedicated tap/die holder is ideal, but drills and even a vice can be used if you have to.

Note that I am Welsh, and a couple can be anything up to 50 ;-).

Keith


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## MusicMan (16 Mar 2019)

Inspector":66eiyjpa said:


> Worth mention that solid hex dies are usually for thread chasing and split round dies meant for cutting new threads. There are of course rules to every exception.
> 
> Pete



True. You start the die thread with a split die, mounted so as to be as wide open as possible. Then close down and repeat. The equivalent of graduated taps.

If you buy the wrong sort, it's easy to slit a sold die with a Dremel and thin slitting wheel.


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## J-G (17 Mar 2019)

MusicMan":1w98sse6 said:


> 2. ... aluminium is harder (lubricate with WD40)...


Most of that is good advice but I must take exception to the WD40 suggestion ! (hammer) (hammer) 

WD40 is a water repellent not a lubricant.

Lubricate Aluminium with paraffin.


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## Inspector (17 Mar 2019)

WD40 makes a better lubricant than it does a water repellent.  

Pete


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## Rorschach (17 Mar 2019)

WD40 is an excellent lubricant for cutting and tapping and aluminium, it is better than paraffin and smells nice too.


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## MusicMan (17 Mar 2019)

I would not use WD40 for lubricating anything but aluminium, but it is good for that, in my experience.


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## AES (17 Mar 2019)

J-G wrote, QUOTE: WD40 is a water repellent not a lubricant. UNQUOTE:

and Music Man wrote, QUOTE: I would not use WD40 for lubricating anything but aluminium, but it is good for that, in my experience. UNQUOTE:

The first statement about WD 40 comes up so many times, but sorry, it's just plain wrong. Q: What is a "lubricant"? A: ANY liquid (or semi liquid/paste/slimy stuff) which will keep 2 pieces of metal apart while they're rotating or sliding or rubbing. In other words, water (OFTEN used as a lubricant, AND fuel of various types) and even raspberry jam COULD be used as a lubricant - though perhaps there are better uses for raspberry jam (my wife's is lovely)!

And although WD 40 IS primarily a water dispersant, it definitely IS also a lubricant - and maybe even better than raspberry jam for that purpose! Seriously, in certain special applications, WD 40 is a very GOOD lubricant and for some special purposes (in aviation for example) it's sometimes specified for exactly that purpose.

Coming back to the practical hobby workshop world. Music Man (amongst others) is perfectly correct when he states that although you'll find paraffin (kerosene) specified as lubricant for ali in all the text books, WD 40 works just as well as paraffin for cutting ali - that includes threading and lathe turning when you're after a fine finish. In addition, when turning brass, (which always "squeals" at you) though it's impossible to stop that squeal completely, a judicious squirt of WD 40 does a lot to at least reduce the teeth-jarring frequencies!

I also use WD 40 as a cleaner/lubricant for all my garden tools, with and without cutting edges. Some of these tools live in the relative warm/dry cellar workshop, the bigger ones such as the lawn mower and tree lopper live outside year round in a small timber tool store (unheated but with a small high level ventilator). In all cases cutting edges remain clean, sharp, and untarnished, and there is no rust at all on any tools, stored inside or out. And WD 40 is ALWAYS used (a quick squirt) as a lubricant on the pivot points on my wife's secateurs before and after use.

The "trick" of course is that after the "carrier fluid" has evaporated off, WD 40 leaves a thin film of silicon, which I think is why its use is frowned on in many wood working applications (where I understand silicon can adversely affect many traditional wood finishes).

But to say WD 40 is not a lubricant is just plain wrong, sorry - and to repeat, in some (limited) special applications it is actually specified as the only lubricant to use.


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## Rorschach (17 Mar 2019)

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I am a big fan of WD40 (and GT85). WD40 does not contain silicone.


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## PaddyRedman (17 Mar 2019)

As has been said, HSS for cutting threads, carbon steel for chasing threads. The amount of carbon steel taps I've snapped cutting threads is beyond the reasonable mark. Once snapped you've then got to try and get it out....
I always use a bit of drilling / cutting paste on steel, helps to ease the friction and makes the bit glide smoothly. Generally don't use aluminium so don't know what will work best on that.
GT85 smells nicer than WD40, and Ive found seems to last longer and work better.


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## Rorschach (18 Mar 2019)

PaddyRedman":1xe4i51o said:


> GT85 smells nicer than WD40, and Ive found seems to last longer and work better.



I find it doesn't clean as well as WD40 but it does lubricate better and longer as you say.
I keep both on hand and use the GT85 mostly on our bicycles, it's a great water disperser for chains and sprockets and the lubricating properties easily last for the duration of a ride which is all I need.


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## Robbo3 (19 Mar 2019)

I use GT85 as a lubricant on almost everything including the bed of the lathe.


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## Harbo (20 Mar 2019)

Cromwell sell some very good quality taps and dies including Dormers but at a price.
I started off with a cheap set from Axminster and added to it with better quality ones when they failed.

Rod


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## Zedheadsteve (25 Apr 2019)

With regards to using carbon steel taps and dies to repair damaged threads : 

A much better option is to use “re-threading” taps and dies. These are specialist tools for cleaning up damaged threads and they remove minimal material to do this. The cutting tap or die option does tend to recut and therefore remove material which can be undesirable on worn threads. 

The other advantage is that re-thread kits are fairly cheap. Save the money for good quality HSS cutting taps, buy the individual sizes you really need and forget the carbon steel options.


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## Sheffield Tony (4 Dec 2019)

I know this is an old thread, but I bought some individual taps from Chronos recently, they are marked Apex UK on the box, and HSS UK on the tap - and they work very well. 

The set of Chinese no-name ones I bought previously (not from Chronos) were astoundingly useless. They simply would not start cutting a thread, internal or external - just chewed up the hole / end of the rod.


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## Rorschach (4 Dec 2019)

Sheffield Tony":18kie1ri said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I bought some individual taps from Chronos recently, they are marked Apex UK on the box, and HSS UK on the tap - and they work very well.
> 
> The set of Chinese no-name ones I bought previously (not from Chronos) were astoundingly useless. They simply would not start cutting a thread, internal or external - just chewed up the hole / end of the rod.



Chinese made sets are quite often very poor however if you source them as single items or mini sets and make sure you buy HSS you will find that there are very well priced, high quality items available.

I have bought superb spiral point taps direct from China for about £1.50 per tap, they are strong and sharp and seem to be holding their edge fine.


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## Ttrees (6 Dec 2019)

Thanks for the tip about the cheap ones not starting, I will look out for that happening.
I've only bought a cheap Lidl the other week and must have another look at them.
What i have noticed is on these cheapies at least the dies are at least centered, compared to a pack I bought about 10 years ago.
I bought them mostly for the wrench can't go too wrong as they were half the price of a single pack of good ones...beats using a vice grip  
Do you folks use the cheap wrenches that you get with these packs,?
Is it scornful to use a cheap wrench that comes with these taps for fancier taps?
Should I be looking for one of those fancier chuck style wrenches on the bay for cheap?
The ones locally are about 25 quid.
Thanks
Tom


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## AES (6 Dec 2019)

I really have found that cheapo "Chinese Cheese" taps & dies are very much a matter of pot luck. Example, I have a set of either Lidl or Aldi HSS Metric Coarse - 2, & 3 mm, then 2mm steps up to 12 mm, and they're VERY good. OTOH I've got another cheapo set (I forget where from) and "they wouldn't cut a thread in a rice pudden skin".

Trouble with all this is you don't know until you try, but at least the Aldi/Lidl 3 year guarantee seems to work fine the few times I've tried - the lady in the shop here just takes the item back, no Q's asked, and if in stock on the shelf, you get the choice of a "new" item or your money back..

Re tap wrenches, the tap wrench in my OK "Laldil" set is also "OK", but for the smaller sizes (small mm, BA, etc, etc) the M&W "2 jaw collet-type wrench" that I inherited from my Dad is great - small and delicate enough that the chances of breaking a tap or cutting a cock-eyed thread is greatly reduced.

Nowadays though, I generally buy single taps and dies as needed, rather than full sets, and can therefore afford to buy better brands (via Chronos, Arc Euro, Model Fixings, etc. Usual disclaimers, links at top of Metal Working section).


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## Ttrees (6 Dec 2019)

Thanks for the info AES
I presume the Moore and Wright collet type wrench that you have is something like this one 
pulled from a quick Google






I will do some more looking up when I have time.
Good to know both wrenches I got in the pack are OK from your perspective, I only got them for some unforeseeable job.
I'm normally only looking to do non precision stuff, but have a bought the few good ones when I needed them.
I might be making four M10 barrel nuts in the future and might opt for something like a chuck type wrench for the job, or maybe fix my pillar drill return spring and try that out.
Threaded a hole with a monsterous old metalworking lathe before and couldn't believe the smoothness 8) , so that's probably a better idea for now.

Thanks
Tom


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## AES (6 Dec 2019)

Yup "my" (my dad's old) tap wrench is exactly like that one. Sorry, I don't even know if they're made any more.


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## TFrench (6 Dec 2019)

AES":1odfm9m4 said:


> Yup "my" (my dad's old) tap wrench is exactly like that one. Sorry, I don't even know if they're made any more.


Eclipse still make them (no. 143) but there are that many on ebay you'll soon pick up a decent one for pennies.


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## Trevanion (6 Dec 2019)

I had a cheap set for a while from Aldi, I think it was something like £10-15, worked OK but they didn't last long making new threads so I guess they were mainly for cleaning up and re-cutting old threads.

I've steadily bought sets of Presto HSS taps and dies when I needed them and now I have a range from M3 to M12 and a couple of BSW sizes, they're not cheap but they do work *that* much better at cutting new holes. They bite into the material pretty instantly compared to the cheap Chinese ones and it's a much cleaner thread without any chipping of the thread itself. As for tap wrenches, I found the cheapie 10" Aldi one to be pretty rubbish and it constantly lost grip mainly down to the sloppy fit of everything I think. At the moment I've officially only have two sizes of tap wrench, 6" and 22"! :lol: I bought a vintage 6" Eclipse no 241 a couple of years ago and it's excellent on all the Presto taps up to even M10, even though it's only 6" in size but I think sharp taps help greatly. I recently bought a 22" Record tap wrench for pennies that is military broadmark stamped 1942, I'll never be driving taps that'll do it justice and it'll mostly sit in the drawer for its whole life but hopefully it will come in handy! 

Anyone know where to get a decent set of tap size drill bits? I could buy singles but it would be nice to have a set with some kind of holder.

I think good die stocks are a must though, they should hold a die squarely in the holder and firmly, any play or out-of-squareness makes it so much harder to cut a thread. Fortunately, most of my external thread cutting is done on the lathe with a holder in the tailstock 8)


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## AES (7 Dec 2019)

Good to know the M&W 143 is still available, thanks.

And +1 for cutting threads on the lathe if you have one.


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## Bod (8 Dec 2019)

Selection of tap wrenches.
Top LH. Ratchet tap wrench, available in 3 sizes.
Top Centre & RH. Eclipse tap wrenches, again 3 sizes. The Tommy bar is moveable for difficult jobs.
Bottom. Selection of Bar type wrenches.
Be sure to get enough to cover all the sizes of taps you use.




Die holders. Again there are different sizes.
Note the slit in the dies shown, this is to allow adjustment, via the 3 screws.




Top. Die Nuts and holder. Better quality ones are able to repair threads quite well, cheaper ones, barely able to remove thin paint/rust. Does have the advantage of being usable with a spanner.
Bottom. Examples of cheap dies and holder, no split in the die, or screws to adjust. The tap wrench shown is cheap and nasty, will not grip a tap. Not shown is the tap wrench mate to the cheap die holder, which mushrooms over rather than grips the tap.

Bod


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## Rorschach (8 Dec 2019)

I personally like the eclipse style holders, very well made and easy to use.


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## AES (8 Dec 2019)

+1 Rorschach. But it's news to me that there are 3 sizes of the M&W tap holder. I "only" inherited one from my Dad (from the pix it must be the smallest one think). I must have a Google for the biggest one of the 3.

I also have the ratchet type shown on the extreme LH, but must confess I don't like it all that much


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## Rorschach (8 Dec 2019)

AES":2nb8esdu said:


> +1 Rorschach. But it's news to me that there are 3 sizes of the M&W tap holder. I "only" inherited one from my Dad (from the pix it must be the smallest one think). I must have a Google for the biggest one of the 3.
> 
> I also have the ratchet type shown on the extreme LH, but must confess I don't like it all that much



News to me as well, I have 2 sizes of eclipse tap holder, they cover everything I need to do for hand tapping though so I guess a small size again wouldn't be much use to me. 

What I really want to get hold of, never seen one at a car boot etc yet, is a spring loaded tap follower for use on the lathe or drill press.


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## AES (8 Dec 2019)

Ah, I've got a spring-loaded tap follower for use on the lathe Rorschach, and very useful I find it too. I THINK I got mine from Arc Eurotrade, quite cheaply (usual disclaimers). Unlike you I do (or more accurately, I used to do) quite small sizes (about 10 BA and 1.5 mm), hence my interest in the Arc device and the smallest (two now) M&W tap wrenches.

It's why I don't particularly like the ratchet model shown - a bit big/heavy for small stuff in my hands anyway.


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## Rorschach (8 Dec 2019)

Yeah I don't think I have ever needed a ratchet holder though I am sure for certain jobs in confined spaces they are very useful. 

I have seen the spring loaded followers on the interwebs but they are a little out of my budget especially as I don't do an awful lot of tapping jobs that it would be used on. 
One job I was doing on the lathe where I really needed it I used a big bungie cord wrapped around the tailstock to provide pressure, worked nicely but was a bit of a faff for regular use.


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## Neil S (5 Jan 2020)

I know it's an old thread but if anyone is still looking for an HSS set these are very nice as they have three taps for each size progressively taking deeper cuts into the thread. They also have the tap wrench and correct matching drill sizes kept in the same box.

Ruko set

HTH

-Neil


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