# Very micro hydro - how to



## Ozi (12 Jan 2022)

Does anyone here know how to go about generating power from a stream? We have a stream that runs most of the year, occasional dry times in the summer when it flows underground so animals still get to drink from the remaining pools but no useful flow. This time of year when I'm really low on solar power it's flowing at 100 liters per second. I have several places with over a meter drop so a small wheel could be possible, I don't want to make to much of a weir and stop wildlife moving up stream. Or I could pipe water and run through a small turbine and back to the stream if I didn't draw to much from the flow. All I need is power to charge tool batteries run some low power lighting intermittently and maybe a small fan so 250W plus would be OK 500W and I'd have more than I know what to do with. I want the power about 50m from the stream but if necessary could build a battery charging box and just swap batteries between there and the barn as needed. Budget is even lower than the power requirement it's a small holding not half a county.


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## Cabinetman (12 Jan 2022)

No, but I did see Dick Strawbridge on tv doing it once, the amount of elec from a very small stream was impressive. I seem to remember it was a constant 2 kW and of course you can do it again a little bit further down the hill. Ian


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## Ozi (12 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> No, but I did see Dick Strawbridge on tv doing it once, the amount of elec from a very small stream was impressive. I seem to remember it was a constant 2 kW and of course you can do it again a little bit further down the hill. Ian


That's what I'm hoping, don't need much and I think there are places where 1 kW would be possible IF I knew what I was doing, could spend a lot proving I don't. The electrical side is the bit I want explained all I know about electricary is it runs on smoke, very expensive smoke and doesn't like water - what could go wrong, internet may help


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## Old.bodger (12 Jan 2022)

It’s a lovely idea, but I think you will be up against the laws of physics.
Head will be more important than flow, but you need both. Allowing for low efficiency generation, transmission losses, conversion and battery charging losses. I think you will struggle for mWs….but I would love to be wrong.


Just had a quick ‘Google’ ….quote seems to be about 1 Horse power for 25 amps with a car alternator.


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## Cabinetman (12 Jan 2022)

That TV programme must be available somewhere – it was really good, and it was done for people like you to copy the methods, I seem to remember that he diverted the flow slightly so that he had a good fall onto the wheel, as was just said fall rather than flow.


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## Myfordman (12 Jan 2022)

Look up Marty T on YouTube. He has a series of video on making his generator together with control systems and storage schemes.


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## Droogs (12 Jan 2022)

You need a decent volume of water and at least a drop of 30' to get adecent speed on the turbine. Watch Kris Harbour and hydro build.


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## Trainee neophyte (12 Jan 2022)

You would probably be best served with a pipe from as high up the stream as possible and a Pelton wheel (diy or buy one ready made). Batteries plus 1/2 Kw would run the average house without a struggle.


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## Cabinetman (12 Jan 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> You would probably be best served with a pipe from as high up the stream as possible and a Pelton wheel (diy or buy one ready made). Batteries plus 1/2 Kw would run the average house without a struggle.


Thanks TN, I think I’ve been living with my head in the sand I’d never heard of one of those.


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## doctor Bob (12 Jan 2022)

You would need planning permission, I think.

All new hydroelectric systems require *planning permission and an abstraction licence*. You will need planning permission to install any domestic or community hydroelectric system, even a small scheme to power a single home. You should contact your local authority at an early stage.

I thought about this but hit brick walls, so will be interesting to see how this pans out.


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## Ozi (12 Jan 2022)

Pelton wheels are excellent but I don't think I have the head to get the pressure / velocity needed. So an over or back shot wheel is looking more practical, plus within my limited building capabilities 

quick calculation 100 l/s * 1m * g = 981 W, at 60% efficiency which is about the average I see quoted = 589 W I'm not looking to run a house just lights occasionally and charge batteries for tools and electric fence, 400 W of solar panels do this well in the summer, in the winter I have to lug batteries back and forth and carrying them up and down a 1 in 3 hill looses it's entertainment value pretty quick when it's wet and slippery - I think it's better as a spectator sport. Worth a bit of effort finding out how to do it. Also still get a little help from the solar particularly since I found this angle calculator to make the most of whats available


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## D_W (12 Jan 2022)

From the "old" youtube. Nothing expensive or high speed in this one. I remember it when it came out - wasn't easy to find!



he also had a video showing how he made the key bits, but that's no longer up (maybe he started making them for pay).


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## Ozi (12 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> You would need planning permission, I think.
> 
> All new hydroelectric systems require *planning permission and an abstraction licence*. You will need planning permission to install any domestic or community hydroelectric system, even a small scheme to power a single home. You should contact your local authority at an early stage.
> 
> I thought about this but hit brick walls, so will be interesting to see how this pans out.


So I see - from the renewables first site


All small hydro and micro hydro systems must have hydro licensing issued by the environmental regulator, which is the Environment Agency (EA) in England and Wales, Scottish Environmental Protection Agency (SEPA) in Scotland and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) in Northern Ireland.
The process to obtain the licenses is a quite bureaucratic, particularly when dealing with the EA, and takes on average nine months for a typical site.
As well as a licence to use the water for the operation of the hydro system you will also need permission to do ‘work in the river’ while the system is constructed. This includes agreement on how works will be conducted to make sure the riverine environment is protected and also checks that all permanent structures and temporary works (i.e. coffer dams etc.) do not increase flood risk.
Planning permission will be required for any new structures, though generally this is simpler to obtain than the EA consents because hydropower systems are visually relatively unobtrusive. On technical and ecological matters the local authority generally defers to the environmental regulator, so provided your EA / SEPA / NIEA consents are all in order the planning consent should be forthcoming. It can be more complicated if the hydro system is integrated into a historic building, but even then this is normally possible in a sympathetic way which is acceptable to Conservation Officers.

A run of river system is much more likely to get permision as no damming involved so eco effects are less and there is no risk of flooding, I'm hopeful that where we have a small natural fall and I would just be standing a wheel under it there would be no problem but we shall see.


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## Ozi (12 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> From the "old" youtube. Nothing expensive or high speed in this one. I remember it when it came out - wasn't easy to find!
> 
> 
> 
> he also had a video showing how he made the key bits, but that's no longer up (maybe he started making them for pay).



Thanks for posting that, he has more water than I get but is generating significantly more than I need from what looks like a fairly inefficient (in terms of extraction not loss) system, more research to do.


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## D_W (12 Jan 2022)

I only recall him because I think he said he had a woodworking business at the time, and it's too long ago to recall why I saw the hydro video. What stuck in my mind, though, is someone said "where did you learn to do that, what book?" and he said "i'm not much of a reader, I only read ___ and the Good Book" (I don't remember the second thing, but it was something like cartoons, etc. 

He's a lot like my grandfather, who never read anything, and a functionally illiterate relative of mine who probably and an undiagnosed learning disability, but who could build or weld just about anything and repaired TVs for a living for a while (and could make electronic control apparatus for radio towers). 

But I do recall back then that a lot of people (it's the internet) were giving him all kinds of advice about more efficiency and hooking up to the grid and he more or less said "hey, I'm just trying to run two fridges and don't have to run a line back to where they are on my property, so I figure that's pretty good". He also mentioned at the time (it just doesn't seem like this is the same video) that while his setup is massively inefficient, it's basically loose and doesn't clog. 

It's a real bummer that the long video showing how to fabricate the innards isn't there. I see now (haven't seen this guy since then and don't usually have a memory as good - especially not these days) that about 6 years later, he posted a maintenance video for the thing still in operation. 

As to what others said above, water rights can get pretty sticky here - not so much rights to the water, but diverting water here is an easy way to get in trouble with environmental agencies in the US. How strict the regulatory agencies are depends on who is in office.


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## doctor Bob (12 Jan 2022)

It's a lazy repair in my opinion, but it's a sweet program. 

EDIT: Whoops wrong thread.


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## Cabinetman (13 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> So I see - from the renewables first site
> 
> 
> All small hydro and micro hydro systems must have hydro licensing issued by the environmental regulator, which is the Environment Agency (EA) in England and Wales, Scottish Environmental Protection Agency (SEPA) in Scotland and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) in Northern Ireland.
> ...


 It’s almost as if they’re trying to make it impossible to do. If it was me and I really mean this I would just do it and sod em. It’s not as if you’re stealing the water it’s going straight back in again, and they do have to catch you first! what you are actually doing is borowing a little bit, putting it though a gizmo and returning it. Maybe not even that, you might be just dipping a wheel in the water that flows across your land. Tough. Trouble is nowadays everybody afraid of their own shadow. Ian


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## TRITON (13 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> Does anyone here know how to go about generating power from a stream? We have a stream that runs most of the year, occasional dry times in the summer when it flows underground so animals still get to drink from the remaining pools but no useful flow. This time of year when I'm really low on solar power it's flowing at 100 liters per second. I have several places with over a meter drop so a small wheel could be possible, I don't want to make to much of a weir and stop wildlife moving up stream. Or I could pipe water and run through a small turbine and back to the stream if I didn't draw to much from the flow. All I need is power to charge tool batteries run some low power lighting intermittently and maybe a small fan so 250W plus would be OK 500W and I'd have more than I know what to do with. I want the power about 50m from the stream but if necessary could build a battery charging box and just swap batteries between there and the barn as needed. Budget is even lower than the power requirement it's a small holding not half a county.


This is something ive often wondered as me and a mate used to camp a lot and running streams and rivers nearby I felt could be put to use.
One idea, though this was just for small led lights to light our area was to mount a dynamo front wheel, with the rim adapted so it has paddles or some such thing, on a long axle so it could be mounted beside and in a river or stream, and the wiring led off to a string of low powered lights.
That would only be 6 or 12v, which would be more than enough for leds.
I know you can also get 24v for handcranked versions, but how much power it would put out I dont know,and maybe you'd also need big batteries to store the power.

Your thread reminded me of small hydro power generators and a quick look throws up this.








*UK* 1PCS NEW 220V 500W Miniature Hydro Water Turbine Generator | eBay


500w hydro generator only can be used with the following two conditions. After the unit foundation be poured with concrete is solidified, the unit is installed in place and then watered in sequence.



www.ebay.co.uk




Im sure wit a bit of study and maybe looking towards some 'off grid' forum setting, such things will have been discussed.
Possibly what youre looking for but maybe prohibitively expensive


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## Cozzer (13 Jan 2022)

More from laddo....
(Apologies if already shown somewhere)


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## Ozi (13 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> It’s almost as if they’re trying to make it impossible to do. If it was me and I really mean this I would just do it and sod em. It’s not as if you’re stealing the water it’s going straight back in again, and they do have to catch you first! what you are actually doing is borowing a little bit, putting it though a gizmo and returning it. Maybe not even that, you might be just dipping a wheel in the water that flows across your land. Tough. Trouble is nowadays everybody afraid of their own shadow. Ian


I see both sides of this, don't like being restricted by excessive regulation. However if I was daft enough we have a bridge over the stream and if I blocked the pipe running under it I would soon have a 3m deep mill pool - lots of power, shortly followed by my bridge and tens of tons of water heading towards a neighbors house. It's probably best if someone keeps an eye on these things, I just hope I can do this without too much bureaucratic pain. the temptation to put in several direct flow 50W units which nobody would see or care about is great but I'm going down the legal route for now, expect intense bitter moaning in the not to distant.


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## bourbon (13 Jan 2022)

and of course the local council and EA will want a nice wedge to process the application. Putting a bit more in a brown envelope may make things go smoother


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## Ollie78 (13 Jan 2022)

There is a you tube guy who used his rain guttering to charge his phone I think its Quint builds or similar. It was quite interesting as he did several impeller designs to get more power.
I have seen a couple where they used old washing machines (direct drive ones ) to get quite good energy.

Ollie


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## Lard (14 Jan 2022)

This is a topic I’ve wasted numerous hours pondering over. I came across this vid a while back and it’s well worth a watch…..makes you realise what can be done.


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## Tris (14 Jan 2022)

In this situation it sounds like a simple ram pump lifting the water to a storage tank that then feeds a pelton wheel should do the trick. Think that's the setup Dick Strawbridge built. There used to be a system like that at the CAT in North Wales, perhaps they would be able to offer some advice


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## TobyT (14 Jan 2022)

Tris said:


> In this situation it sounds like a simple ram pump lifting the water to a storage tank that then feeds a pelton wheel should do the trick. Think that's the setup Dick Strawbridge built. There used to be a system like that at the CAT in North Wales, perhaps they would be able to offer some advice











Micro-Hydro Power - Centre for Alternative Technology


Micro-hydro turbines can be a very efficient and convenient form of small-scale renewable electricity. Get free advice and tips from CAT.




cat.org.uk


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## Spectric (14 Jan 2022)

Have you thought of making it a garden feature, a nice water wheel but that would require an upstream small pond. The wheel could be feed overhead or undershot, both have been used in mining over the years. Look at this for ideas Water wheel - Wikipedia.


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## Ozi (14 Jan 2022)

Thanks for all the help her folks. I'm looking to try with an overshot wheel first just driving the alternator from my old car. Just a proof of concept, I won't need to build a dam or weir so dropping it in temp for an hour or so to measure the output before going for the proper permissions should be OK. Obviously I want to build cheap for a trial, could use wood but it would be nice to make something more durable and cheaper that can be tidied up if it is to become permanent later. To which end I'm looking for something like a plastic cable drum about a meter diameter, I know they exist, I have seen photos online. The design I have in mind involves running a V pulley with a root diameter of about 50mm against the rim to give a 20:1 ratio which should get me most of the way to the input speed I need for an alternator, I might need to add a 2:1 sprocket and chain drive as well depending on how fast I can get the wheel to turn. 

Here's the cheeky bit - does anyone know where I can get something like that?


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## Jameshow (14 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> Thanks for all the help her folks. I'm looking to try with an overshot wheel first just driving the alternator from my old car. Just a proof of concept, I won't need to build a dam or weir so dropping it in temp for an hour or so to measure the output before going for the proper permissions should be OK. Obviously I want to build cheap for a trial, could use wood but it would be nice to make something more durable and cheaper that can be tidied up if it is to become permanent later. To which end I'm looking for something like a plastic cable drum about a meter diameter, I know they exist, I have seen photos online. The design I have in mind involves running a V pulley with a root diameter of about 50mm against the rim to give a 20:1 ratio which should get me most of the way to the input speed I need for an alternator, I might need to add a 2:1 sprocket and chain drive as well depending on how fast I can get the wheel to turn.
> 
> Here's the cheeky bit - does anyone know where I can get something like that?


A 24" plywood cable reel would make a good hub for a waterwheel? 

Perhaps channeling water over the top of it into buckets or past in a channel underneath it? 

I suspect the former would give more torque???


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## Ozi (14 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> A 24" plywood cable reel would make a good hub for a waterwheel?
> 
> Perhaps channeling water over the top of it into buckets or past in a channel underneath it?
> 
> I suspect the former would give more torque???


Not sure how to make the ply stand up to the water, wooden drums are certainly easier to find but I don't want to rebuild if I can avoid it. I may go down this route for the test if I can't find anything more durable.


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## tomlt (15 Jan 2022)

There's a difference between micro and low head hydro. If you don't have a lot of pressure but reasonable flow (which it sounds like you do) look up crossflow devices. These are a bit like old cylinder mower blades and don't need more than about 1m of head. Traditional pelton/kaplan wheel arrangements need 10x that to be worthwhile.

All the best, Tom.


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## hairy (16 Jan 2022)

I had a look a while ago. I seem to remember the extraction bit is to prevent disruption to wildlife so if you are doing it at a waterfall then the fish are already knackered with access and permission is more likely.

Using this man's super useful info I worked out for my tiny stream I might power a lightbulb for half the year! But I may still have a go with a washing machine motor off an underpass wheel at some point. The turbines from NZ he suggests are pricey. His site also is mostly about building your own wind turbine.









Powerspout hydro turbines


I am very ready to chat and help decide whether you have a good site and how to use a turbine. I help to design hydro systems for people all over the world and arrange delivery. phone +44 77 131576…



scoraigwind.co.uk


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## hairy (16 Jan 2022)

Also, Advoko makes is perhaps worth a watch? How he made his water wheel is I think very clever (in an earlier vid).


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## Jameshow (16 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> Not sure how to make the ply stand up to the water, wooden drums are certainly easier to find but I don't want to rebuild if I can avoid it. I may go down this route for the test if I can't find anything more durable.


I'd use alloy lades mounted on the hub. 

If it works you could make the hub out of alloy too..

Saves spending 000s on an untested design?


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## manicminer (24 Feb 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> No, but I did see Dick Strawbridge on tv doing it once, the amount of elec from a very small stream was impressive. I seem to remember it was a constant 2 kW and of course you can do it again a little bit further down the hill. Ian


'Its not easy being green' was the programme you refer to. He used to run his Landrover on biodiesel too


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## Thingybob (24 Feb 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> That TV programme must be available somewhere – it was really good, and it was done for people like you to copy the methods, I seem to remember that he diverted the flow slightly so that he had a good fall onto the wheel, as was just said fall rather than flow.


I remember that programme he built the wheel from plywood it was before he got the chateau so it was in England


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## morqthana (22 Jun 2022)

So you need PP for a hydroelectric system.

But not for water powered machines in your workshop.

Who's going to see the little generator tucked away in the corner being driven by the shaft?


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## morqthana (22 Jun 2022)

bourbon said:


> Putting a bit more in a brown envelope may make things go smoother


Or it might make them go in a custodial sentence direction.


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