# tool prejudices



## Anonymous (20 Oct 2006)

I remember once reading a comment in one of Jim Kingshot's books where he had a japanese chisel and never thought much of it as he wasnt familiar with that sort, and he relegated it in his shop for scraping glue or some other menial task. Aparently he felt ashamed using it that way when he began to apreciate what _could_ be done with them chisels. The point was that all along it had a proper purpose that hadnt been seen or used.
I have just used a smallish riffler rasp to shape up a saw handle, and I was very surprised with what it could do, I was prejudiced against rasps (for whatever reason, I dont know) thinking it was "cheating" to use one :roll: :roll: 
I was wondering if any body has had similar experiences of changing their mind anout a particular tool that they might of not regarded highly, but when shown what it _could_ do when properly set up & used became a big fan?
Might be interesting discussion??
cheers Jonathan


----------



## David C (20 Oct 2006)

Having tuned up several saws today, both European and even my favorite Sun Child Japanese saw, the answer would have to be yes.

I have a deep suspicion of handsaws having started with the poor offerings of the 1970's.

Getting very excited about a dovetail saw from Mike W which is getting closer, metaphorically.

The same goes for spokeshaves. Boggs L-N is a revelation.

Waterstone flattening devices, the Norton is working well though it needs periodic flattening. Two ceramic devices were so far out of flat they are a joke.

I had a burnisher/ticketer that was too soft to work in the beginning.

Planes did not work either.

I have a deep suspicion of any rosewood and brass composite, they cannot easily be tuned up.

Most marking gauges do not work, neither do cutting gauges come fit to work.

Plane blades were rubbish. chisels were too soft, etc etc the list is endless.

I sugested to my students today that 90% of tools sold to the amateur do not work well. Is this too harsh or is the true figure 95%?

David


----------



## Philly (20 Oct 2006)

Jon
The problem is that we Hobbiests lack seeing tools used correctly for their purpose. Oh to be an apprentice, watching his Master work. Also the Japanese approach (where the apprentice is not allowed to use the tools or to ask the Master for advice, only to learn through watching his Master work) makes a lot of sense, although at first seems harsh. :lol: 
As to the quality of the tools for sale today, the mainstream stuff certainly if of a poor quality and needs tuning (some a LOT!). As Mr C is apt to say, "most planes for sale today are no more than a kit of parts". Very sad. Thank goodness we are witnessing a revival of the quality hand tool market. Lie-Nielsen, Veritas and the smaller cottage industry tool makers (like Mike Wenzloff and his boys, Blue Spruce, etc...) are producing tools as good as have ever been produced (if not better!). 
Cheers
Philly


----------



## Nick W (20 Oct 2006)

For me it has to be scrapers. Just the name is off-putting, but then I managed to sharpen one properly, and now they come pretty high on my list of favourite tools.


----------



## MikeW (20 Oct 2006)

I would have to especially agree with Nick. For too many years the whole concept seemed crude to me. Backwards thinking. Of course, I tried them and only confirmed my pre-conceived prejudices.

Until I used one for more than scraping glue which another person had properly sharpened. That was darn near a revelation to me.

I would maybe add good squares to the list, too. I thought nothing short of working in a machine shop required good layout tools. Wrong again. That was the rough carpenter in me dictating that prejudice.

Good topic, Mr. S!

Take care, Mike
working on you know who's saw this weekend. Starting with cutting the handle out of a beautiful piece of ... :lol:


----------



## Paul Chapman (20 Oct 2006)

Yes, great topic Mr S  

The two most recent ones for me were a leather strop and polishing compound for finishing bench plane blades and home-made MDF buffing wheels with polishing compound for honing shaped cutters. I just never thought they could be so effective so I didn't bother trying them till quite recently. They have transformed my honing  Could kick myself now for being so stubborn :evil: 

Paul


----------



## Wiley Horne (20 Oct 2006)

This is a very good topic. And I am yet another scraper convert. Not as a substitute for smooth planing, but as a tool in its own right.

A prejudice I had was against cambered blades. It seemed to me that thin, mic-able shavings was the mark of good planing. And it seemed that a jack plane was defined by its length, as in No. 5, not by its function. What a revelation cambered blades have turned out to be. And not only for jack planes. For almost every bench plane. It just changes everything about how one works, and for the better.

Wiley


----------



## Anonymous (20 Oct 2006)

Great replies gentlemen, interesting to hear what folks have to say on this topic



Nick W":2rxrwmwy said:


> For me it has to be scrapers. Just the name is off-putting, but then I managed to sharpen one properly, and now they come pretty high on my list of favourite tools.



I know what you mean Mike & Nick regarding scraepers, its like well how can something so _crude_ be a valid or useful tool?? :lol: I was the same way, but eventually learnt to sharpen them. Its fantastic to see a glassy smooth surface appear, and those dull grey rough ares melting away isnt it 8) !!



MikeW":2rxrwmwy said:


> I would maybe add good squares to the list, too. I thought nothing short of working in a machine shop required good layout tools. Wrong again. That was the rough carpenter in me dictating that prejudice.



I once was in a shop looking at try squares and the shop keeper looked ready to take a swing at me when I asked quite innocently and casully if his squares were square :wink: I said do you know how to test them he says of course I bloody do, I'll try it against this one under the counter. :roll: :roll: :roll: I heard some where that up to half of all squares are not squares at all :lol: :lol: :lol: 

cheers Jonathan 

PS wiley, what is a cambered blade, I never heard of that is it when you have a slight radius?


----------



## Wiley Horne (21 Oct 2006)

Mr. S,

Yes, you have it, a slight radius on the blade (in plan view). It is an old method. Joseph Moxon in his 'Mechanick Exercises' ca.1700, refers to the foreplane has having a 'convex arch' blade, rather than being 'ground upon the straight' as smooth planes and joynters are... 

Scrub planes tend to have about a 3" radius, and my jack (a Clark & Williams) has a 5-1/2" radius. A fore plane will have less radius yet. I like smoothers to have some degree of camber, though I can't say how much as I go by feel, and get the effect by differential pressure when sharpening. I would guess perhaps a thousandth across the blade. 

Oftentimes, the camber is described as the amount of rise of the arch from a line joining the two blade corners. So Jeff Gorman in describing the set up of a jointer for edge-jointing talks about a 4-thousandths camber. Bugbear does similar at his website in describing how he made a cambered blade for a scrub plane. Mr. Charlesworth takes the same approach in describing the cambering of a blade for edge jointing.

A cambered woodie jack or foreplane takes a lot of misery out of rough stock preparation. The plane has an entirely different feel to it than when using a straight blade--very smooth and powerful, blade kinda sings, not so sensitive to lateral adjust. I'll quit here. 

Wiley


----------



## Paul Chapman (21 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":1roqfrzc said:


> what is a cambered blade, I never heard of that is it when you have a slight radius?



It's all explained very well in David Charlesworth's DVD on hand planing. Quite interesting if you've never come across the concept of planing boards flat with a curved blade :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Anonymous (21 Oct 2006)

Those last 2 comments are extremely interesting to me personally. I have a confession to make, I have always used a "cambered blade" without really knowing its name as such, but even though it worked for me, I tryed and tryed to get full width shavings with a square cut edge even though you get a ridge at the extreme of the cut (unless you raduious the corners) :lol: I thought this curved bade set up works _but its not proper_ :roll: :lol: I knew the blade was curved as when I put a "square" square acros the end touching the 2 corners, you could see a tiny arch maybe 1/2 or 1/4 of a minimeter?
I find its like when they have one of those big metal planing machines that goes in narrow passes to do iron saw tables etc. I start on one side and gradually move to the other about 1/2" or so at a time. I find it easier to locate and deal with high spots too.
So is it "ok" to have edge jointed boards with a _very_ slight concave camber :?: or is that out of order?
I know what you mean about the blade singing Wiley! In fact just as with a drum or cymbal you listen to see if its in tune  When its flat etc you know somethings wrong.
Those clark williams planes look very english I think! It might have been Mr Kingshott once said that with a wood jack and a scrub blade you could take off shavings as thick as a mans belt :shock: 
cheers Jonathan


----------



## Colin C (21 Oct 2006)

I guess for me the tool that I would not be any good was a cordless drill :roll:  and I would stick to my yankee, that was untill I was helping a friend do up a pub and used his :shock:  .

I have not be without one since :wink: 

When it comes to scrapers, it was the first tool I learn to sharpen propely and have to use woods like satinwood ( very wild grain but very nice when finished ), it was one tool that I have always use  .
Some how I found scarpers easier to sharpen than my chisels ](*,)


----------



## Paul Chapman (21 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":2mmj4c9n said:


> So is it "ok" to have edge jointed boards with a _very_ slight concave camber :?: or is that out of order?



David Charlesworth would say it's the only way - and he has a very convincing DVD to prove it. Difficult to explain but all quite simple when you see it :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Anonymous (21 Oct 2006)

The reason I ask is that is the way I do it, I reasoned that I'd get just that tiny bit tighter and neater joins without there being a void at the centres too wide for the glue. I take final freshly sharpened and very light passes down the centre of the edge and do this until the plane stops taking a shaving, is that it?
Your a good dvd salesman Paul :lol: , I think I'll look out for that hand planing dvd its my birthday soon any way :wink: 
Cheers Jonathan


----------



## Paul Chapman (21 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":2bah0mum said:


> Your a good dvd salesman Paul :lol: , I think I'll look out for that hand planing dvd its my birthday soon any way :wink:



I don't get a commission on sales, honest :lol: I couldn't get my head around what DC was on about, despite reading one of his books. But having seen the DVD it all became obvious - I've altered my planing somewhat (for the better I think) since seeing it. Sounds to me as if you are almost there, without realising it :wink: 

Paul


----------



## David C (21 Oct 2006)

Jonathan,

I dont think the void in the centre of the glued edge joint is significant, it may not even exist.

I see a minute hollow in width when examining the edge, but this hollow may only be 1/4 thou in depth.

Medium hardwoods are definitely compressible, so when clamped, with sash clamps I believe this hollow may disappear.

Whether it 
does or not you get extremely tight joints at the surface, and I have not noticed failures.

David


----------



## Anonymous (21 Oct 2006)

Nick W":2w1o4f13 said:


> For me it has to be scrapers. Just the name is off-putting, but then I managed to sharpen one properly, and now they come pretty high on my list of favourite tools.



Exactly the same experience here


----------



## nickson71 (21 Oct 2006)

I'm just starting the scraper revelation too


----------



## Anonymous (21 Oct 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Anonymous (21 Oct 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## David C (22 Oct 2006)

Slight undercutting of non glue surfaces has always been the recommended practice in cabinetmaking. I was taught this 35 years ago.

Perhaps a degree or so, not great diving slopes!

For furniture where we are not concerned with water penetration, there is no need to even glue the endgrain portions of a joint. This is a great help in keeping the interior surfaces clean.

Best wishes,
David C


----------



## woodbloke (22 Oct 2006)

Paul Chapman wrote: 


> leather strop and polishing compound


I've used a strop for years now, the difference it makes is remarkable, but don't use the normal stropping paste, go instead for some super-fine Jewellers Rouge (available through Axminster) and work thoroughly into the leather with a little vaseline. When the strop is first used, a lot of this goo will be transferred to the bevel side of the blade - make sure this is removed with a cloth before doing the DC ruler trick on the flat side. Its also very useful to make a cover for the strop to stop workshop dust and grit from contaminating the leather - Rob


----------



## Anonymous (22 Oct 2006)

I've used solovol autosol metal polishing cream as a stropping paste, also water stone slurry. I've put it on wood blocks shaped to fit gouges and leather on a wooden backing that is especially good when I do my billhook :shock: I also use wheels coarse and soft useful as an intermadiate touch up between sharpenings


----------



## Anonymous (22 Oct 2006)

woodbloke":g6oaqphg said:


> the DC ruler trick



Is that where you hold a ruler along the back of the "flat" chisel and see if the mirror refelction is straight right to the very edge or if it curves over indicating you've not yet got a flat back? (or some ones been clumsy trying to save time and doctored it with a belt sander/linisher contraption?) :roll: :roll:

I expect Paul will pop up and say "its all very well explained in Mr Charlesworths hand planing dvd.." :wink:


----------



## Paul Chapman (22 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":actumnt7 said:


> woodbloke":actumnt7 said:
> 
> 
> > the DC ruler trick
> ...



Not this time - I've not seen that one and never used the "Ruler trick" :lol: :lol: 

Paul


----------



## DaveL (22 Oct 2006)

The DC ruler trick is for use on plane irons, not chisels, as it produces a small back bevel which is OK in planes but stops chisels cutting a straight line. 

To get a good sharp edge you need two flat faces on the metal to intersect, so the back of the blade needs to be nice and smooth, mirror finish is the ultimate smoothness. For a chisel there is nothing for it but to polish the back on finer and finer abrasives of your choice until this is achieved. The trick that DC has promoted is to lay a thin steel rule on one edge of your stone, place the plane iron across it and flatten the back on the other edge. You are grinding a very small strip at the cutting edge of the iron so it gets flat very quickly. In a plane only the last 1/16" of the back of the blade is used in cutting, in a bevel down setup so the small back bevel has no undesirable side effects but saves you loads of time. 

If you have new high spec plane irons of the LN or LV style the backs are very close to flat to start with, however on some of the cheaper irons you may find machining marks on the back which must be removed if you are to get a good sharp edge without leaving a toothed finish on the work.


----------



## Anonymous (22 Oct 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## DaveL (22 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2u8v6qcr said:


> So the point is that you _don't_ need to polish the back of a plane iron as the mini bevel takes care of machine marks etc. Have I got it right? Sounds a good idea I'll give it a go.



You've got in one Jacob.


----------



## Anonymous (27 Oct 2006)

David C":eqe3w663 said:


> Jonathan,
> 
> I dont think the void in the centre of the glued edge joint is significant, it may not even exist.
> 
> ...



Just as an intresting post script I was having a read of gerge Ellis's book last night, he gives a good account of jointing (shooting up) edge's of boards. He advocates making the edges a little cocave along their length also, to ensure extra tight fit at the end of the panel so as air doesnt get in to ruin the joint (presumably humid air that would dissolve the glue??)


----------



## Anonymous (27 Oct 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## ivan (27 Oct 2006)

I think scrapers too, and longer planes. I was bequeathed a truly flat pre war Stanley 4 1/2 as a youngster, and bought a Record 6 when I started work. I only wish *it* had. Much, _much_ later (being self taught) I discovered planes were not necessarily flat, and had to save up for a straight edge. The number 6 had a 30 thou hollow, no wonder it couldn't cut. For far too may years I thought this was my fault.

The same cautions apply to lower cost machiery - safest to regard as a kit of parts.


----------



## bugbear (27 Oct 2006)

ivan":2atiaiob said:


> The number 6 had a 30 thou hollow



That must have been horrible. For anyone who hasn't used a concave plane, what happens is...

The blade doesn't cut.

So you advance the blade...

until it cuts.

At which point the blade PULLS the rest of plane down (or the workpiece up) so the blade suddenly digs in.

The net effect is a plane that either doesn't cut at all, or digs in.

Not an easy diagnosis, since a simple blunt blade exhibits similar properties.

BugBear


----------



## Anonymous (27 Oct 2006)

I know _exactly_ what you mean Bugbear :roll: Diaganosis SPOT ON!!
That is the _exact_ thing as happened with my little blockie plane until I straightened him out good and proper on the glass and emory paper :lol: :lol: Even when I knew my blade was very sharp. You end up thinking your rubbish or something and think about giving up trying to do woodwork at all :roll: Its like a micro world in among all that plane geometry stuff :lol: :lol: 

As a matter of interest Bugbear, do the mouths wear down even on iron planes? Or is it just careless manufactering?
Cheers Jonathan


----------



## ivan (27 Oct 2006)

Also very cheap power tools. Never before touched with bargepole - but have been pleasantly surprised by Silverline HiSpec range, see posts 'bargain sander polisher' and 'bargain 4" belt sander'


----------



## Paul Kierstead (28 Oct 2006)

Believe it or not, Hold-fasts. I was somewhat yeah-yeah about them until I got a couple of very good knock-em-in ones from Joel and can't believe how useful they have been.

From the otherside, I had great disdain for the belt sander but have been discovering it is actually quite a fine tool


----------



## David C (28 Oct 2006)

Jonathan,

I believe that the soles of heavily used old planes do wear around the throat, and the sole as well.

Timber is often if not always abrasive.

I frequently note a depressed area adjacent to the front edge of the throat, in old planes.

The flatness issue, perfecting sharpening and chipbreaker set up, are just some of the reasons why my 5 day 'Tool Tuining and Skills' course is so valuable. People are amazed by the improvement!

Best wishes,
David C


----------



## bugbear (30 Oct 2006)

David C":bhsir5pm said:


> Jonathan,
> 
> I believe that the soles of heavily used old planes do wear around the throat, and the sole as well.
> 
> ...



Yep; here's something I link to from my flattening page, showing just this:

http://img76.photobucket.com/albums/v23 ... Han/hf.jpg

BugBear


----------



## promhandicam (31 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":3sren1xs said:


> I know what you mean Mike & Nick regarding scrapers, its like well how can something so _crude_ be a valid or useful tool?? :lol: I was the same way, but eventually learnt to sharpen them. Its fantastic to see a glassy smooth surface appear, and those dull grey rough ares melting away isnt it 8) !!



Excuse my ignorance, but how _do_ you sharpen scrapers?  I thought that having a nice square edge was enough. :roll:


----------



## dedee (31 Oct 2006)

This might help with further sharpening tips.

http://www.woodworking.org/WC/Channels/scraper.html


Andy


----------



## Wiley Horne (31 Oct 2006)

Promhandicam,

Here's another link; this one is about preparing card scrapers:

http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/scraping/scraper.htm

Wiley Horne


----------



## promhandicam (31 Oct 2006)

dedee":10bdri5c said:


> This might help with further sharpening tips.
> 
> http://www.woodworking.org/WC/Channels/scraper.html
> 
> ...





Wiley Horne":10bdri5c said:


> Promhandicam,
> 
> Here's another link; this one is about preparing card scrapers:
> 
> ...



Thanks very much both of you for the links. I've certainly learnt a lot today and will have to try and sharpen up my scrapers tomorrow as we have a public holiday here in Togo


----------

