# Old tools from eBay or brand new tools to start



## SMALMALEKI

Well, let's start with some background.
I don't have much family history of cabinet making to rely on. Besides a few summer months, I spent watching a backgammon maker and a few boxes I made in my uncle's basement. 

I rediscovered my love of working with wood in recent years. 
A novice to hand tool I started self-learning and studied a few methods for each task. 

I took on the advice “ you don't need expensive tools to make good products” and headed to eBay for some second-hand old tools. 
I followed the instructions and tuned the planes and sharpened the blades. Combination of lack of knowledge and tools which might have had an structural issue caused me to spend more time tuning my planes than planing my timbers. 

That caused me to decide to get tools which has less chance of a structural problem and are easier to maintain. 

I have been told again and again that “expensive tools don't make you a good woodworker” 

The question I would like to ask is: I your honest opinion for someone with limited time and expertise which hand tools are better? 
An uncertain eBay second hand or a well made new tool? 

I appreciate all of your opinions.


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## benandez

As a beginner I would suggest cheap new well made tools to get started. Buying second hand and then spending an age tuning etc is a brilliant learning experience but you are likely to become more disheartened by the results of the second hand tools if you don't already have some experience in working the wood.
As you move through your woodworking journey you will probably discover at some point that it absolutely is worth the price to pay for an expensive tool as the overall machining, tolerances and quality is supreme which will make you enjoy the woodcraft again.

At least that's my thoughts - and my thoughts alone.


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## Jamesc

My advice would be to first decide on a project, and get some decent timber. I know it seems counter intuative, you don't want to learn on somthing expensive but if all you ever use is cheep fast grown DIY store softwood, you will find getting a good result much harder. 
Spend the time to learn how to get the best from the tools you have and you will then get a better understandinmg of what tools will work best for you.
I have quite a collection (far too many) tools, but for the majority of work I do it comes down to a small handful that I use every time.


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## Jacob

Hand tools - Ebay tends to be fraction of the price of good quality new so that's always been my choice. Some risk but not expensive to remedy, either by fettling or selling it on and buying another - you learn a lot about tools in the process.
I prefer my oldies to any of the modern alternatives I've tried and in fact don't think I've got anything very new at all, and not missing them.
PS I've had new of various qualities. Not usually usable out of the box so there's still a leaning curve. Sometimes quite unusable due to manufacturing mistakes - worst was a Faithful 10 plane impossible to remedy. A beginner might not realise it was a dud and could waste a lot of time on it.


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## Against_The_Grain

I think trying to get old tools working is a fundamental experience for beginner woodworkers, it will give you the basic skills of how your tools work and how to maintain them which is essential for being able to work with them, a brand new Lie Nielsen No 04 will operate great when new straight out of the box, but you still need to maintain the edge eventually and set it up relative to what timber you’re working with, I think it’s far better to learn how to do this on a £20 plane than a £400 plane.

As always, having the timber (and not expensive exotic stuff that novices gravitate towards, buy some inexpensive hardwood like Tulipwood or Ash and have a play, that is how you will learn, by doing) and making stuff from it is far more important than having a lot of very nice shiny tools. Typically expensive tools are completely wasted on inexperienced users as they’ll never get the results from them regardless.


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## Phill05

I learnt on the old tools the right way to set them up to use them to get the most out of them and make a good job and get repeat work by word of mouth and more than anything I enjoyed going to work each day and using them.

I see there is a lot of people that must have the most shiny, polished, blingey tool they can find I think personally this is more about bragging rights than making something with them, there is an old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted"

An example a team of fitters went to my sister's house to make and fit new ledged and braced garage doors with all the new shiny tools you could imagine but they built them without brace's and when I told them what would happen and how they should be made they were quite put out.

I would say stick at it only buy when you don't have any other way of getting the work done but most of all Enjoy what you are doing.


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## Phil Pascoe

benandez said:


> ... cheap new well made tools ...



Sorry, there's no such thing.


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## Droogs

Just to get it out the way, @Jacob , that is a terrible attitude. Find out you've bought a POS and then sell it on to muggins to re-coop your money. No wonder we end up getting this kind of thread when people follow this philosophy and these POSs end up doing the rounds and putting newcomers off the hobby as they end up feeling they are totally useless at woodworking as they can't get the hang of it due to Jacobs profit margin.

@Jamesc has put forward a very valuable point. For beginners the biggest stumbling block is not as they think, tools but in fact knowing what to do to gain the knowledge of how the tools work. This is much harder to do in isolation working on bottom quality soft fluffy timewarp grown softwoods from the local big shed. They need to learn that hardwoods are the mainstay of furniture making for all the nice bits and softwood is just construction support on the bigger pieces. Find furniture pieces in hardwoods that are being chucked out on the pavement, skip etc and then disassemble them and re size the various components. Saw panels in half and mark them up thinner and shorter and narrower and then plane to those marks and learn to be accurate and to get face and edge at 90. Then use those pieces to make something new. Even if you dont want the thing, give it away or cut it up and then make boxes using as many different joints that you can.


At the begining, the wallet constrains what you can get regarding tools as most really under estimate the costs involved esp. for new so end up buying 2nd hand. This is fine if you know how to make sure it works properly. So yes buy second hand and if you get a duffer put it aside until you know how to fix it or strip it for parts and then ditch the knackered part. Don't pass them on to others.


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## Gordon Tarling

I feel that's being a little critical of Jacob - all he said is that he's selling them on, but if he's selling them as spares or repair, then I feel that's fair enough. We don't know all the facts of Jacob's sales yet.

G.


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## Bod

Is there a "Men's Shed" near you?
If so go along there will almost certainly be someone who can at least show you what to do with your tools to get the best from them.

Bod


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## Jacob

Gordon Tarling said:


> I feel that's being a little critical of Jacob - all he said is that he's selling them on, but if he's selling them as spares or repair, then I feel that's fair enough. We don't know all the facts of Jacob's sales yet.
> 
> G.


I've brought a few back to life and sold others spares/repairs. I want to hang on to my 100% rating! No profit in it particularly.


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## D_W

I think it'll make no difference either way in your making, so do whichever you prefer. 

I like reworked (or sometimes little work at all) older tools better than new high dollar tools. Cheap planes that are new are a total crapshoot, so put that aside. 

However, when I was new at this, as many would find to be the case, I found the convenience of the boutique tools worth the money. Don't buy anything weird if you plan to resell it. Basic tools from LN and LV and anything else similar (Luban is probably fine if you don't mind using copies of LN tools, as the brother brand of them sold through a retailer chain here seems to be well regarded). 

Weird would be anything new and japanese or any other oddball stuff that's not identical from one to the next. You're not a dealer of those things and nobody really has a clue when buying entry or mid stuff of that type, so they rely on a dealer. You'll get a very small fraction of your money back, especially if a brand is no longer retailed when you're ready to dump your stuff and move on.


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## Jameshow

I've got a mixture of old record and Stanley and new faithfull. Cannot afford any of the posh brands...
If I could then I'd have accept I'm not the greatest woodworker despite having LN festool stuff.
My excuse is my tools!

Seriously though the three tools I would buy top dollar would be a no4 plane, a good set square and a dovetail saw.


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## Richard_C

As with so many things, a lot depends on how much time you have vs how much cash you can afford. When I was working full time plus some with lots of travel I had very few hours in the year for making so bought anything I needed new. Now I have more time and positively enjoy bringing things back to life.

As previous post, I've got a cartoon somewhere with the caption "if only I had more tools I could better display my incompetence".


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## Ollie78

It is hard to make a blanket statement about one being better than the other. Each item should be looked at individually when you need it.
Buying second hand can save a lot of money for you. Stanley / record planes are plentiful and cheap and can perform very well with little work.
For something like chisels ( assuming you have none) it might be better to buy a set of Narex or MHG for £100 or so, my reasoning is that they will only need a quick sharpening up and they will be ready to go as well as being a full set.
You could spend ages buying and sorting out random old chisels and never get any work done.
There are some fantastic old tools out there but also quite a lot of rubbish, for a beginner it can be hard to tell the difference.
I would also suggest buying at least one brand new certified engineers square to test all your other squares with. 
A not quite 90 degree square is one of the most frustrating things ever.

Ollie


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## Phil Pascoe

... as well as being a full set ...

There's a lot to be said for not buying sets. When you're busy different sizes are easily identified by different handles.


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## Droogs

The only other thing I will put forward is on new cheap planes. Leave them alone. The biggest problem with them is that they are produced too quickly. Old makers would leave plane castings for at least a year to 18 months after casting and then again for a few months after initial machining in order for the cast metal to "stress relieve" before final finish machining and assembly. New cheap ones are not given this time and as a consequence start to warp (sometimes very noticeably, even to the eye) even before they reach the shops to be sold.


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## Recky33

Yep, That's probably the real reason why LN are having problems atm, as they don't make their own castings, anything that slows down the "stress relieving" stops everything and the old stock goes very fast


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## Bod

Silk purse or Pigs ear?


I've just been given a new plane! The story is this was recovered from the company skip, by a friends son who worked there at the time. Unfortunatly there are no instructions with it, nor are any easily available on the internet. So I will go with the normal "Needs sharpening out of the box"...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk




This is a thread that I started a while back, covering trying to get a cheap plane to work.
the only thing to really add to it was to flatten the blade back, to get a proper sharp edge.

Bod


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## thetyreman

all you need in my opinion plane wise is a no7 no5 or 5 1/2 and no 4 or4/12 for all planing duties, I'd go with vintage ones with the bog standard stock blade and cap irons. I don't have anything against using premium modern tools like veritas and LN if you have the money for it, why not? they are often so well set up that you don't need to do anything to them, so when you consider how much work it can take to get an old one into the same league as a LN it's not such a bad idea.


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## thetyreman

this is worth watching too, I did this to all my cap irons and wow what a difference:


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## heimlaga

Most of my hand tools are either old and restored/repaired/rebuilt or entirely home made from scratch. Most of my machines too.

It is a matter of time versus money. If you have time buy secondhand and rebuild. If you have money buy new. If both time and money are in short supply byúy a few new tools to get the hang of things and speed up your learning curve then buy the rest secondhand.


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## OCtoolguy

SMALMALEKI said:


> Well, let's start with some background.
> I don't have much family history of cabinet making to rely on. Besides a few summer months, I spent watching a backgammon maker and a few boxes I made in my uncle's basement.
> 
> I rediscovered my love of working with wood in recent years.
> A novice to hand tool I started self-learning and studied a few methods for each task.
> 
> I took on the advice “ you don't need expensive tools to make good products” and headed to eBay for some second-hand old tools.
> I followed the instructions and tuned the planes and sharpened the blades. Combination of lack of knowledge and tools which might have had an structural issue caused me to spend more time tuning my planes than planing my timbers.
> 
> That caused me to decide to get tools which has less chance of a structural problem and are easier to maintain.
> 
> I have been told again and again that “expensive tools don't make you a good woodworker”
> 
> The question I would like to ask is: I your honest opinion for someone with limited time and expertise which hand tools are better?
> An uncertain eBay second hand or a well made new tool?
> 
> I appreciate all of your opinions.


I guess it all depends on your pocketbook. I used to buy all the best and greatest brand new. That was back when I had an income. Now that I'm retired I buy nothing but used tools. I do my research on brand, model etc. and once I've homed in on what I want, I start the search. So far, I have a full shop of just about everything I'll ever need. And I think the only new tools I have are a couple that I bought at our Harbor Freight store when on a sale too good to pass up. Also, I have 2 B&D 20 volt drills and batteries purchased new online. That's it. So, be patient, do your homework and start looking. Good luck to you.


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## Sean33

SMALMALEKI said:


> Well, let's start with some background.
> I don't have much family history of cabinet making to rely on. Besides a few summer months, I spent watching a backgammon maker and a few boxes I made in my uncle's basement.
> 
> I rediscovered my love of working with wood in recent years.
> A novice to hand tool I started self-learning and studied a few methods for each task.
> 
> I took on the advice “ you don't need expensive tools to make good products” and headed to eBay for some second-hand old tools.
> I followed the instructions and tuned the planes and sharpened the blades. Combination of lack of knowledge and tools which might have had an structural issue caused me to spend more time tuning my planes than planing my timbers.
> 
> That caused me to decide to get tools which has less chance of a structural problem and are easier to maintain.
> 
> I have been told again and again that “expensive tools don't make you a good woodworker”
> 
> The question I would like to ask is: I your honest opinion for someone with limited time and expertise which hand tools are better?
> An uncertain eBay second hand or a well made new tool?
> 
> I appreciate all of your opinions.


Difficult this as im not sure there is a right or wrong answer or opinion.
I have done both and sure will continue to do so but what I can say is that finally spending money on a good grinding system made a huge difference with the 2nd hand tools. Only my opinion but if you go down the 2nd hand route a Tormek and a couple of good stones makes all the difference
I quite often hear the argument that I only paid 20 quid for it and sold it for a similar amount, but that can be said of the premium brands too albeit in the 100s
For me its what you enjoy to use, gives you confidence and feels right in your hands


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## Ttrees

thetyreman said:


> this is worth watching too, I did this to all my cap irons and wow what a difference:



If working on really tough examples, likely in most cases that better results can be achieved by going steeper, ie above 50 degrees,
as it allows a greater distance to be set away from the edge.
Many reasons why this is an improvement IMO

More camber is achievable on the toughest examples when smoothing,
or even just if you like to be able to see a distance between both.

Handy to have an influenced cut when using timbers which might have embedded grit,
its much less likely to cause damage to the cap also.

Always handy to be able to gain more influence if needed on say a panel/jack/try plane without switching over to the smoother.

Possibly other reasons too, which doesn't come to mind.
Not to mention that one might not achieve a tearout free surface in the first place honing the cap so low.
Yet to see a reason why one wouldn't want this steep of a profile,
unless one wants a tight mouth for some reason like end grain beveling...
which is the only one I've read of.

Still waiting for Charlesworth to make a newer really good video, of both the newer setup and use of the plane,
as I understand from a skype conversation he had with Cosman, he has changed things slightly since the much older videos he has made.

I haven't seen anything which holds a candle to the old video he made which was recorded at a woodworking show.
Simply foolproof methodology on the use of the plane, for one who really wants to get the best from their tools.

An unmatched approach if dimensioning timber without machinery.
i.e no bad habits which is on near every other planing video I've ever seen to date, and I'm no slouch when I'm on the couch!

The other David on here, has made articles on the cap iron, and combined with above is a match which was made in heaven.

All the best
Tom


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## yetloh

thetyreman said:


> all you need in my opinion plane wise is a no7 no5 or 5 1/2 and no 4 or4/12 for all planing duties, I'd go with vintage ones with the bog standard stock blade and cap irons. I don't have anything against using premium modern tools like veritas and LN if you have the money for it, why not? they are often so well set up that you don't need to do anything to them, so when you consider how much work it can take to get an old one into the same league as a LN it's not such a bad idea.


All these are good to have but there is a notable omission - I regard a block plane as essential and I am sure I will not be alone in saying I use mine at least as much as any other.

Otherwise , a lot of good advice in this thread but just one point from the OP's original message; high quality tools won't make you a top woodworker but there is no question that they will make it easier for you to do good work _if they are well tuned and maintained._

Jim


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## Phil Pascoe

Which planes do I need? That's a rabbit hole. I have a nice low angle Stanley block plane - I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've used it in the last three decades or so.


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## Ollie78

I agree with yetloh about a block plane, I have a low angle one and its probably my most used plane. 
It depends on what work you do but I find the block plane so handy. 
The block plane and the record 73 shoulder plane stay in my main handtool box that goes everywhere with me. 
I leave the bigger or more specialist ones in the workshop.

Ollie


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## yetloh

Phil Pascoe said:


> Which planes do I need? That's a rabbit hole. I have a nice low angle Stanley block plane - I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've used it in the last three decades or so.


We all have our own ways of working but I would say you are unusual. I know quite a lot of furniture makers and have yet to meet one who does not regard a block plane as essential. I recall that the late great Alan Peters reckoned to use only a No 7 and a block plane, I don't think I could manage with only those two but it just shows how different we all are.

Jim


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## Brill88

Jacob said:


> I've brought a few back to life and sold others spares/repairs. I want to hang on to my 100% rating! No profit in it particularly.


I’m the same people aren’t daft with tools generally it’s hidden things or if someone doesn’t show the mouth on a plane with a big crack even if the side may have a repair you make not of it my eBay is clean bar one person but that was chainsaw trousers but he’s a scammer as it turned out so no bother


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## Richie555

Hi Smalmaleki, When I was learning I did a carpentry/Woodworking course in my local college. This not only gave me the joinery skills but it taught me which tools were important and which were a luxury. I also used YouTube to watch specific skill videos and as my knowledge progressed I started buying old and eventually antique tools and enjoyed restoring them. In the last year I have restored Planes, Chisels and now a complete tool chest and tools. Many people on this forum have also helped me out, I would like to thank them for helping me progress and hopefully I can pass that knowledge on in the future. I hope this helps?. Regards and I look forward to seeing your progress in the future.

Richard.
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