# plasma problems



## kityuser (4 Jan 2005)

imagine the scene, cornered in comet, pregnant wife with failing eye sight demanding a larger tv (the reply "just move closer to the screen" is not met with much success)........

I was rail-roaded in buying bloody great plasma thingy :shock: 

my worry is that from some of the things you read on the web, maybe they don`t last very long (about 20,000 hours seems a quoted figure).
I was under the impression that all of the manufactures offered a life-time warranty on the actual plasma matrix...... but seems not.

My screen is fine, but I`m worried about what happens if I get a problem (blown or stuck pixel) after the 1 year warranty, which is in ADDITION to your consumer rights (7 years as stated on the trading standards web-site).

I`m interested in peoples opinions/experience..........

If I do get a problem within 20,000 hours how do i prove that it was a manufacturing problem and thus get philips to fix it under the consumer rights laws?


steve


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## Vormulac (4 Jan 2005)

Hi Kityuser,

I'm thinking of investing in a plasma tv before too long, so I'll be keen to hear your thoughts on the experience (also which model etc etc).

I don't think the 20000 hours thing is much of an issue, as unless I'm mistaken, even watching it for 10 hours straight every day, that would still work out at over 5 years - not a feat your average CRT would be guaranteed of, I'm sure!

I was under the impression from what little research I've done into this, that if you are going to get dead pixels, it'll either be right from the word go or very soon afterwards, they don't tend to 'develop' as such.

V.


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## Anonymous (4 Jan 2005)

Hi Steve
Don't last very long? 20,000 hours eh? 2.28 years of 24hrs per day watching!! That's more tv than I will watch in my entire life 

Or, on average let's say that a tv is on 4 hours per day, 7 days per week, (seems a lot to me) then you get 13.7 years of use!

On TFT etc, pixels usually are defective at manufacture and I believe that they do not genereally fail over time individually; you are far more likely to have the power supply or something similar blow which is a definite warranty job

Also, you will do well to spot individulal pixel failure unless sitting right up against the screen


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## kityuser (4 Jan 2005)

pixel failure can develop due to the half-life of the gas used, i.e. if one pixel is over-excited it can "burn-out"

i.e. would not be evident from the factory.

would I notice one pixel? I`m not sure that is the point...... I paid 1500 squid for the dame thing!

I also use my tvs alot for games and stuff, so yes I probably would notice.

20,000 hours really is`nt that much compared to CRT life-time, my old-man still has a black and white telly thats getting on for 20 years old.

4 hours a day.... and the rest!
I have alot of hobbies (guitar, ww, computers, cars) but Mrs kityuser reads infront of the telly. Bearing in mind that she won`t be working soon (little`n on the way), and at the moment its on from 16:30 until about 22:30..................

anyone out there have one of the first gen plasmas? any problems?

I spent quite a while looking into the plasma V LCD issue (mags, internet) (last year)and came to the following conclusions (not intended to start an argument here, plenty of places you can find that on the web on this issue):

plasma:
1) can suffer "burn in"
2) quoted as lasting 20,000 hours
3) less pricey than lcd
4) HEAVY
5) can suffer power supply problems due to the screen loads/fans/etc
6) more "attractive" to view for movies (generalisation across the industry based on contrast control, "digitisation effect", response time ect)
7) no restricted viewing angles

LCD:
1) longer predicted life time (maybe....)
2) can have "reponse time" issues, i.e. bluring of faster moving objects
3) more "digital" looking
4) no TRUE black (appears as very dark grey)
5) expensive
6) can have contrast issues on cheaper models
7) presently have size issues (big ones are £££££)
8) far better definition
9) restricted viewing angles (quoted angles do not take into account for colour distortion, i.e i can see a picture at 60 degrees, but what is it?...)

note: this is completely subjective, its what I`VE found out, if you don`t agree with what I`ve found then I`m sorry.
(really, people argue FAR to much about this on the net!).

By far the best viewing experience (from my point of view) is CRT, but due to space and size (37inch crt...... not way) it was`nt possible.


regards

steve


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## Philly (4 Jan 2005)

Kity
I badly want a big Plasma screen, but the Powers That Be have come up one other thing.....
"You have just bought that bl##dy table saw you going on about forever!"

Sadly the Plasma screen was thumbs down'ed....  
Maybe when she's not looking I'll put one on her credit card! Thank God for the Internet, eh?
On a more serious note, have you connected your PC up to it? Whats the picture like? I tried plugging mine into my telly-very horrible!!! :x 
Good luck with your screen,
Cheers
Philly


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## kityuser (4 Jan 2005)

ow..... proper VGA input (RGB + digital)

picture looks very nice!


just as a side point, using RGB from a pucka dvd player and a big telly u can see just how poor some dvd-discs are! lots of compression :shock: 

and don`t even get me started about the quality of "sky" :x 

steve


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## Vormulac (4 Jan 2005)

I think we can probably all think of examples of still-working telly sets that Noah may have watched the weather report on, but let's be honest, they are from a different age, they weigh a ton and will never break because they and all their components are made from granite - not fairy plastic like these days. For the couple of old tellies that are still working, there are many many more that have gone phut within the sort of timescale we're talking about here.

However, which would you rather watch The Incredibles on in your living room, a bombproof 15" screen with dodgy colour or a sextastic 42" with all the trimmings?

Seriously though, to address your issues, 20,000 hours (and remember, this is only a quoted minimum expectation, by no means a maximum) is a long operating life for an appliance. From what I've read there is very little concern with current plasmascreens losing pixels - as you correctly said - it is possible, but not a widely reported problem.

As for Plasma vs LCD, well, you got it - money. Expect to pay many times the price of a plasmascreen for a comparatively sized LCD, and although you get higher resolutions, everything else suffers (contrast, contouring, etc). This is from research I've done and the one guy I know who has had a plasmascreen for a while. Which one have you got?

I'm eager to know how you get on with it - is it all up and running or are you awaiting the arrival of shiny kit?  

V.


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## kityuser (4 Jan 2005)

ow no, I refuse to buy from comet, crurrys et al unless I can take it with me!

I got the philips 37" Widescreen Flat tv 37PF9946/12 .

on special offer at comet (about 1500 if I remember)

I`ve really chuffed with it, it looks great and performs to all my expectations.

I have a mate who as a top of the range pioneer(external controller box), proper job.... above the fire place and everything! I would`nt say that mine was as nice but for the price I thought mine was a real steal, and all the gubbins hangs on the back (no external control box)....



well chuffed, although a little lighter in the wallet  

steve


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## Vormulac (4 Jan 2005)

A very wise policy concerning our fine high street purveyors of boxed electrickery! :twisted: 

£1500 with mounts included - nice one!  

The CRT I'll replacing is a Philips, the've always been right up there for quality/value in my opinion.

Glad it's fufilling your expectations, I'm feelng slightly happier about splashing the cash on one myself now 

V.


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## kityuser (4 Jan 2005)

I have quizzed philips (to length) and am awaiting a reply about my concerns (I`m always a worrier :? )

I`ll keep you informed.

one VERY slight niggle I have is the lack of inputs on the side i.e. for games and camcorders etc.

they are ALL round the back :? never mind

I`ve always been quite a fan of philips, but then again I would say that would`nt I :shock: 

just to give a comparision, my 37 inch plasma was about the same price as most 23-26 inch LCDs.

get this..... this will make you smile:
they tried to sell me a £150 supply suppressor (mains noise/surge protector) :shock: the demonstration tv had a split screen (vertically) with the left side supposidly protected and the right side not. What I can`nt figure is how they managed to run a tv with 2 power supplies :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 

I quizzed the bloke about it, be bumbled about for ages before admitting that it was a complete scam.

laughing

steve


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## Vormulac (4 Jan 2005)

*wipes tear from eye* That's beautiful! :twisted:


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## mahking51 (4 Jan 2005)

FWIW
Plasma screens main use until recently were in broadcast TV areas, studio monitors, newsrooms etc. Then came the domestic explosion with prices starting to plummet, all good news...
But...

They are heavy although nothing like CRT's. Don't think you can hang one on any old stud wall! Obviously their small footprint is a huge plus.

They get HOT, ask Andy Peters.

There can be significant fan noise, varies from model to model.

You need to be a reasonable distance from the screen to avoid a 'swimming' sensation on some units. Not a good idea to have a 42" screen in a 12' living room IMHO.

Viewing angles are usually overstated, check for yourself.

Blacks are never as good on Plasma and LCD as on a good CRT.

If I had to pick one it would be a Sony or Panasonic as we use these all the time at work and they take a lot of abuse being slung around all over the place, in and out of flight cases. Very few problems with them.

Just a few rambling thoughts...

My own TV? 36" Panasonic PFT Tau CRT in 18' room, simply superb, but takes up a lot of space.
regards
Martin


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## kityuser (4 Jan 2005)

they get hot?

mine has just been on for 10 hours straight, and is less than luke warm to the touch, there is a slight warmness coming from the back but this is many times less than on the back of my 24 inch sony crt.

my mates top of the range pioneer is exactly the same, bearly warm to the touch, I would desribe it as slightly above room temperature.

I would consider the hot-to-touch issue to be an old wives tale for modern plasmas, I went round touching all available in a local comet, currys, dixons and alders (got bollocked in a few for it as well) and NON of them could be described as HOT. I would say that the warmest was a massive sony that I would describe as luke warm.

Radiant heat however can be felt, but that is true of any strong light source, large crts included.

As a direct comparision I would say that the black on my plasma is as good as on my sony crt (tested with the xbox start up screen, i.e. black and green) my lcd pc monitor is pathetic.

Also observing text from the sky digital menu is as good if not better on the plasma than on the crt or lcd.

the viewing angle on my plasma is as close to 180 degrees as I can observe, i.e. with no colour distortion.

My crt is about the same, but the lcd is around 80 degrees.


I would agree with the noise issue, my philips does produce an audiable hum when the volume is lowered, presumably caused by the fans and gubbins on the back.


regards


steve


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## trevtheturner (4 Jan 2005)

Well, anyway, our TV went phut! :shock: last spring and I think LOML really, really does deserve a new one now (and the six-nations starts soon :twisted: ). 

Our daughter has a Phillips 36" CRT set and it is superb. We have a 28' room which will easily take a 36" CRT.

If I can resist going above 36" is there really any point in buying a plasma set, or even a large LCD at twice the price or more? Just want a good TV - not interested in games or gizmos. Already have a DVD/cinema sound system ready to connest.

Any advice most welcome.

Incidentally, FWIW, the Panasonic shop in Hereford is at present giving a FIVE year guarantee at no extra cost on most TVs of all types - CRT, LCD & plasma. (haven't looked at the small print or compared prices with other brands).

Cheers,

Trev.


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## kityuser (4 Jan 2005)

I`d go crt everyday with a room that size, the only reason I went for a plasma was to fit it in the corner where it had to go, a crt would never have fitted.

crt is cheap, a well know technology and more "natural" looking, if you have the space IMO this is the way to go.

best way to tell is to go look at some.

I`ve seen the philips crt you are talking about and its MASSIVE, I seem to remember that it weights a stupid amount as well :shock: 

steve


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## trevtheturner (4 Jan 2005)

Thanks, Steve. Yep, the Phillips certainly is a big box, but your advice has reassured the way I am thinking after reading through the detail in this thread. I had already compared specs. of the different types but was really no further forward until I read the info. above. I'll now compare CRTs and make my choice.

Cheers,

Trev.


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## stefan szoka (5 Jan 2005)

I worked for twenty odd years in the t.v. / hi fi industry. I don't think that I could do it now, I don't like telling lies !
Plasma and LCD screens to my eye have refresh rates which are far too slow. Movement is blurred and jerky. Notice that shops displaying these sets are usually showing cartoons. This is because cartoons are far less demanding on movement.
Digital television broadcasts are slow enough as it is but the problem seems to be compounded further on plasma and l.c.d. 
Even on terrestrial broadcasts I get annoyed at falling technical standards due to more programmes being recorded on digital format rather than the old analogue video tape. Movement on digital recordings is always jerky and blurred.
I have occasionally complained, over the years, to various sectors of the B.B.C. Apart from and aknowledgement, have never had a full reply. 
To me, television and radio does not meet the technical broadcasting standards we had years ago ! I don't think that the B.B.C. or Independant broadcasters have any engineers left.
It's about time that Trading Standards investigated. They keep telling us that digital t.v. and radio is better quality to encourage us to change because the government wants to sell off more airspace. Well, I think we are being sold up the river!
I could accept it if they were honest and said - We have to go digital because the government wants to raise more money, but please accept that there is a reduction in quality of picture and sound. 
That is honesty. What the broadcasters and government are doing, in my opinion is dishonest, and should be taken to task.

Listened to any of your old vinyl L.P.'s recently ? Analogue is still worth hanging on to.

Stefan


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## Midnight (5 Jan 2005)

Screens that size always take me back to my childhood..... but i keep askin......where's the curtains..?? The lights would dim.....curtains would open....and a Worlitzer would apear from the stage c/w ancient bald headed organist churning out every corny tune under the sun.......... and then the main feature would start.... :roll: 

them were the days...


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## kityuser (5 Jan 2005)

I always remember an old uni prof of mine stating that the essence of nature is distortion.

light is naturally distorted all the time (refraction, partial refelection) so the real life images we see are always full of distortion.
Thus a crt tv looks more natural due to the distortion caused by various effects such as "fringe effects", I agree that plasma and LCD do look to "digital" (plasma to a lesser extent), but for overall viewing pleasure I`d go with crt any day.

The same can be said for LPs v CDs and for valves v transistors, alot of the time distortion in sound (caused by changing air pressures, wave front interaction, and ear effects) is described as "warmth", i.e. if you have ever heard a pure sine wave from a singal generator you would`nt describe it as "warm"

I suppose it all comes down to personal taste, I would have loved a massive crt but the space just was`nt there to facilitate it.

I would ignore everything that sales people say in shops like comet, they either lie or just don`t know.

steve


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## Vormulac (5 Jan 2005)

Yeah Midnight, but it's not as much fun hurling half sucked wine gums at the screen when after the film the lights go up and suddenly you're back in the living room and you have to scrape 'em off the telly. :lol: 

V.


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## Vormulac (5 Jan 2005)

You're certainly right about the level of 'expertise' apparent in these places Steve. 
Not long ago I was looking for a particular computer PSU and looking online I found that PC World sell the exact one I wanted, and lo and behold there is a branch on Tottenham Court Road where I work.

Upon searching the shelves I could find only ropey non-badged PSUs, so I went to the 'PC Clinic' and waited to ask someone to stock check for me. Eventually a woman came over and I told her what I needed. "I'm just down from head office doing training so I can't help you, but go to the Business Systems section down there and they've got loads of people who can help"; I thanked her and toddled off. Sure enough in the Business Systems section there were many many staff, all leaning on display shelves and having a lovely natter, studiously avoiding eye contact with any customers and shuffling uncomfortably away if any got too close. I eventually cornered one - it was like trying to herd jelly.

"Q-Tec power supply... I don't even know what you're saying. Is it a laptop or something?", I told him what it was. "Oh pc components, that's different, we can't do that, we're just business solutions, you need to talk to the guys at the PC Clinic - they'll sort you out". I thanked him and retraced my steps to the 'Clinic'.

Afew minutes later, the same lady spotted me and grinned sheepishly "Send you back here did they? Hold on, I'll get someone for you". Shortly there was a short, bearded asian lad standing before me, peering myopically through his bins. This is one of their 'PC Clinic' techs, the guys that you pay a fortune to to have your pc case kicked and declared 'healthy' - anyway, I digress.

"Do you have any Q-Tec power supplies in stock?" I asked slowly and clearly. "Is that for a laptop or something?" He replied. "No, it's the power supply unit for a standard desktop or tower style pc".

He looked at me.

"The bit at the back of the computer you plug the power into?"

A neuron fired somewhere, "Come with me", he said, leading me over to a desk where clearly a pc had recently been. He picked up the power lead sticking out of the desk and pointed at the kettle-type connection. "That's right" I said, "The bit of the computer that plugs into that."

He nodded and grinned and started to take me down the store. This was far too easy. "Not the cable itself, you understand, the power supply it goes into".

He stopped. He looked at me.

Eventually he started moving again so I followed. Down to the far end of the store we went, whereupon he waved his arm munificently to allow my awe to develop appreciably at the enormous rack of power cables before me.

"No" I said, "Not the cable, the power supply unit that the cable plugs into, it's a metal box about this big, it fits inside the computer and you plug the power cable into it".

He looked at me.

"It says on the PC World website that you sell them, so I just wanted to see if you had any in stock, as this store is on my way home and it would be convenient for me to pick it up here."

"Oh if it's on the internet you can buy it there much more cheaply."

"But it won't be cheaper because I'll have to pay postage and they're very heavy, so I want to buy one off the shelf."

"Getting it off the internet's much cheaper mate."

"No, it won't be because of the postage." *heavy sigh* "Can you order one in for me?"

At this suggestion he jumped like I'd stabbed him with a pencil or something. "No, no, we don't do customer orders, mate!!" He cried desperately.

I left the store before what little remained of my patience dissolved into a need to kill.

That evening I drove to the PC World at Northolt and located someone apparently in possession of a higher than room temperature IQ. I explained the problem.

He grinned in an embarrassed sort of 'ah-this-again' manner.

"The PC World website and the stores are totally unconnected, different prices, different stock entirely." At the look of incredulity on my face he had the common decency to shake his head. "I know..." he said, "I know..."

V.


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## PitBull (6 Jan 2005)

Vormulac,

You deserve to be shot for trying to buy from PC World anyway - utterly useless staff and very high prices for most things. No different from Comet, Dixons etc in that respect.


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## Signal (6 Jan 2005)

Saw recently on the samsung site that they are to be releasing their new tube technology on the market Q1 this year.

Basically its a very very slim CRT, I think the 32" Widescreen was about 6 inches thick. They will also be resonably priced as well, i think in the region of 500 quid.

I have had 2 plasmas now and got rid of both, just didnt like them, noisy, poor picture and burn in on both of them. Wont be wasting me money again im afraid.

Signal

ps, when I find the page ill post it here for those intereseted


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## Vormulac (6 Jan 2005)

Pitbull, generally I'd be inclined to agree, I just thought I'd give it a go as it was the one place that appeared (deceptively as it turned out) to have what I wanted. A mistake not to be repeated.

V.


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## Chris Knight (6 Jan 2005)

PitBull":jzcctqn4 said:


> Vormulac,
> 
> You deserve to be shot for trying to buy from PC World anyway - utterly useless staff and very high prices for most things. No different from Comet, Dixons etc in that respect.



PB,
Don't necessarily disagree although I do help keep PC World in business because they are fairly close to me.

However, who would you recommend? DABs, Novatech etc.?


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## Signal (6 Jan 2005)

Chris, 

Ebuyer are very good, may not be the cheapest but certainly very efficient and prompt.

I got barred from our PC world on the A10 in Enfield. Urgently needed a 4 way internal scsi lead on a Sunday, of course PC world was the only option.

Scoured the place but no Joy. Asked one of the plebs, he just glased over and dribbled a bit. Saw a manager, asked him.

His reply was, hmm, there is no such thing SCSI is for connecting to scanners and you can only connect one device, maybe you would like to come to one of our free training sessions.

Handed him my business card and told him where he could sitck his course and was marched off site and told never to return.

Was seething at the time but I can laugh about it now :wink: 

Signal

(edited more times than I wish to care cos im having a very senior day)


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## DaveL (6 Jan 2005)

Signal":vmmce8nv said:


> I got barred from our PC world



Signal,

I have came very close to that at the Lakeside branch when CD drives were the new thing.  
Punter in the next isle with pleb, he was asking all the right questions about multispeed and multisession and the pleb just lied and lied, my (large) son lead me off before I could get to the pleb.  :roll:


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## PitBull (6 Jan 2005)

Chris,

I've used eBuyer a bit (recently LCD screen and dual-layer DVD writer) and back in April last year most of the bits for this PC came from www.overclock.co.uk (very friendly staff).

I'm not a great fan of Dabs - used to be cheap but not so much these days and service isn't what it used to be.


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## Guest (6 Jan 2005)

I had big trouble with Dabs when a scanner I bought did not function.I contacted them and received an automatic email saying I needed to contact the makers(Canon) I did this and eventually I was given a returns no by Canon. Tried Dabs again, auto reply etc !I tried for three weeks to get a sensible response but all I eventually got was a collection date,no apology.I found the whole business frustrating,never again.


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## Signal (6 Jan 2005)

hmm, posted this earlier but it never turned up for some reason

http://www.vixlim.com

link to the sexy slim samsung CRTs

Signal


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## kityuser (7 Jan 2005)

I always use www.scan.co.uk or www.cclcomputers.co.uk

I used to use www.simply.co.uk but as with all of these pc places, they start off cheap for a while then get greedy and ramp the prices up.

some of the older places are still hard to beat, like amazon or sometimes play.


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## Vormulac (7 Jan 2005)

waterhead37":ugzy7pvl said:


> PitBull":ugzy7pvl said:
> 
> 
> > Vormulac,
> ...



Not sure I like the way this is going, lots of people seem to be coming around to the idea of shooting me! :shock: 

As for pc entrails, as well as Scan and CCL as mentioned by Kityuser, I find www.aria.co.uk can sometimes be the cheapest by a good margin and service has never been bad in my experience. Another one to try is www.computerprices.co.uk that searches a good many different suppliers to see who has what you want and at what price.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to find my tin hat and start digging a trench to hide in.

V.


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## Chris Knight (7 Jan 2005)

Signal, PB,

Thanks for the suggestions, I shall try them next time I need a bit of gear.


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## Anonymous (7 Jan 2005)

kityuser":3rhbzstx said:


> I would ignore everything that sales people say in shops like comet, they either lie or just don`t know.
> 
> steve



Usually they don't know a bloody thing!!

One of my favourite pastimes in PCWorld is staff baiting whenever I am in there :lol: I usually seek out one of their 'experts' and have some fun at their expense as unlike them I am actually very knowledgeable in this area

I once spoke to an 'expert' who didn't actaully know what the GHz in 3.2GHz P4 actually meant :shock:


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## kityuser (7 Jan 2005)

when the clock speed in the old AMDs did`nt match the marketing number eg XP2400 I used to love baiting them about it! sad I know.

steve


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## Anonymous (7 Jan 2005)

Saw a reference to Dabs here. I have had very bad experiences with them twice so far and now try to avoid using them. They are typical of the problems reported with woodworking tool suppliers, very good until there is a problem!!

Typical problem was a laptop harddisk I ordered as mine failed. I ordered a 60GB disk and paid for fast delivery as I was desperate. Received next day and installed. Partitioning it I found it was only 30GB!! Checked box and HD, box said 60GB, disk had 30GB printed on label.

Took 3 weeks to get it replaced and about 20 emails + 10 phone calls. The B£$%^^s clearly thought that I was trying to rip them off - I had to wait for thier techs to recieve the 30GB (strangely they _said_ they didn't receive it for 7 days after I sent it back!!) and 'test' it (another 3 days??????)

At least at PC world you walk out with the device in your hand and can speak to a sub-normal near human when there is a problem such as the one I experienced with Dabs! 

I usualkly try to buy tools etc. locally and this sits at the top of my priority list as complaints at a distance rarely get the response they deserve but if you are in a crowded shop with raised voice........


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## PitBull (7 Jan 2005)

Tony,

I'm guilty of baiting Comet staff  I went to the Reading branch one time to have a look at their big 36" TVs. I'd already done the electrical/audio/video spec research online and had a list of possible models, but wanted to check them out physically.

I started inspecting them in detail, and one of the sales morons came over and started spouting off about their great prices and how I could have interest free credit etc - knew naff all about the TVs themselves. and would not go away. So I told him straight out that I was only there to get a feel for their looks and physical size and would be placing a cash internet order somewhere much cheaper. He started to get bolshy about this and called over the manager. After a short but noisy row about their rubbish prices and how the internet was so much cheaper, I was asked to leave 

BTW whilst I'll happily abuse the facilities of big rubbish chains like Comet and Dixons, I don't do this with small local specialists such as camera or hi-fi shops - the specialist knowledge and local support outweighs the cost savings in those cases.

BTW for the record I bough a Panasonic TX-36PD30 - lovely set.


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## Jake (7 Jan 2005)

<i>when the clock speed in the old AMDs did`nt match the marketing number eg XP2400</i>

They still don't. The numbers are made up to approximate the equivalent Intel processor. Which is fair enough, clock speed alone being a nonsensical measure of performance, as Intel now admit (see their Pentium M range).


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## Chris Knight (1 Feb 2005)

Signal and PB,

Thanks for your recommendation for EBUYER. A few days ago I ordered a USB DVD writer from them (I got a LITEON) and it's the bee's knees.

Transaction went very smoothly, price was very good and delivery fine.

The unit performs flawlessly.


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