# Changing Times



## Amateur (31 Dec 2020)

Hello everyone
Over the years I've dipped in and out of the forum. I'm cracking 70 years old now but am still enjoying the smile on folks faces when I've made something for them.
One thing I have noted over time is how the internet forums today have slowed in the volume of traffic that used to come through. I can couple that with the reduction of outlets for machinery today as opposed to 20 odd years ago.
I remember the pages being stuffed with folk starting as a diy woodworker and then some time later setting up businesses. Building large sheds and workshops to launch into bespoke furniture etc.
It was a period when money didn't seem to be a problem and their was so much choice of machinery from suppliers. A place to view machinery upgrades in every town or within drivable distances at any rate.
I can only assume the interest has gone, lost to the monthly wage packet that can't be guaranteed in the shed at the end of the garden.
Oh I've contemplated having a go. 
I took an order for 200 carriage clocks for a PR company. Prizes for a season of golf payers competitions.
Overjoyed I set to work. A steady rate of production.
I can tell you it drove me nuts.
Meeting deadlines, being hassled to drop prices and constantly being shown photos of stuff that had started coming in from China selling for pea nuts.
"But mine has a, sticker!" I'd try to explain , "Hand Crafted from Sustainable Forests" 
The repetitive days turned into weeks, then months.
I made carriage clocks in my dreams. 
Low and behold if anyone asked me what I did for a living down the pub.
Then there was the electric bill, the heating bill, the hourly rate keeping the machinery tip top....and even down time for both machinery, sharpening, getting rid of offcuts, sawdust...The list was huge.
That one job was enough.
I digress. Rambling is age related I'm afraid.

My planer thicknesser broke down just before Christmas. 15 years with my faithful JET 260 with no problems.
Getting down to change the capacitor and messing releasing the motor isn't something I can do at my age. So I wait for an engineer.
While doing so I Google planer thicknesses reviews.
I appreciate now the difficulty for anyone taking up this hobby.
The choice for a new workshop machinery looks minimal.
Even good old Axminster and Record Power have limited ranges and I'm now bamboozled at which company owns which company? What happened to SIP? Hundreds of units sold.
Reviews are either old or non existent.
Gone are the days of reviews. Maybe everyone is on YouTube now so that's it?
In a changing world where B&Ms are becoming a thing of the past it all looks like pot luck Chinese bought on the internet today. 

In 1751 the people of the UK tooK a liking to gin and Gin Lane was in full swing.
Let's hope it doesn't take 270 years to 're start the woodworking rejuvenation?

Maybe I didn't post in the right place but I hope some of you can reflect on my gobbledygook ramblings.
have a Happy New Year!


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## Spectric (31 Dec 2020)

Hi



Amateur said:


> One thing I have noted over time is how the internet forums today have slowed in the volume of traffic that used to come through. I can couple that with the reduction of outlets for machinery today as opposed to 20 odd years ago.



Well I think the world has always changed but it is now the sheer pace of change that is making it so much more noticable and the newer generations are not so hands on, just happy to walk around as a phone zombie staring at the screen and sharing meaningless trivia. Why, because there is more cash around and everyone wants everything now, the days of kids building bikes from secondhand parts and building models from balsa & Airfix kits seems to have gone, do model shops even exist anymore! so growing up using their hands has also gone, how many ten year olds now could repair a puncture? This theme carries on in life, we used to accept that not everyone is academic and so had technical colleges and apprenticeships but now every one has to go to uni and get a degree in something and then get a job in McDonalds or some other junk food establishment to help the obesity crisis expand. So you have less people with a hands on interest and therefore less demand for things like woodworking machinery and tools because it has just not been planted in them by their dads from a young age. You may have noticed also that there is no longer as many good woodworking books being published, many seem to have been around the late nineties and now fewer are being written, less demand or has online video replaced them. So if in twenty years it has decayed to this level can you imagine in say another thirty, it will be a zombie apocalypse with many more people wandering around looking lost, staring at phone screens and posting even more stupid digitally altered photos of themselves, with the females looking like they have swallowed the sink plunger and living on junk food with no hobbies.


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## Terry - Somerset (31 Dec 2020)

I belong to the generation growing up in the 1950s and 60s. This was the "black and decker" and "Barry Bucknell (remember him?) era.

The Chinese reputedly survived on a bowl of rice a day. Hong Kong and Singapore made cheap plastic rubblish. Japan made mopeds, Germany dominated the three wheel car market.

UK was home to craftsmen who (strikes etc aside) could out engineer the rest of the planet (slight exaggeration). BB and B&D allowed people who could otherwise not afford consumer goods to enjoy them.

50 years on there is limited manufacturing left in the UK. That which is left largely relies on advanced IT & technical skills. There is no economic imperative for woodwork as a hobby. Most jobs and careers in UK are service industry based.

It is no surprise that general interest in crafts are losing ground. The young may seem to be smart phone, app obsessed etc, but for them it is social interaction, a source of knowledge, the means through which they control their environment and careers.

If I look around the house, items that previously were wood, possibly crafted with care, are largely gone. Displaced by UPVC windows, IKEA bookcases laminated flooring, MDF and foil covered kitchen units, etc.


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## Spectric (31 Dec 2020)

Next decades along for me, but yes Black & wrecker was too tools as hoover was to a vacuum. Don't forget the soft spanners from Japan and the rise of MFI and chipboard furniture, I think they may have invented it in which case they were pioneers of recycling sawdust, but who kept the wood!


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## Cabinetman (31 Dec 2020)

I am now feeling quite depressed! You are unfortunately not far off the mark. 
But at least this dad did his job properly and trained his son as a Cabinetmaker before encouraging him to get a proper job, i.e. one that is actually sustaining him and his family. Ian


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## Sandyn (31 Dec 2020)

I think times have never been so good for home amateur woodworkers and DIY'ers. I think for businesses it's different, but what I see:- The selection of things available is WAY beyond what was available years ago. I remember in the very early 90's travelling to the States, visiting Sears and drooling over the equipment and prices. There was nothing like it available in the UK, now we have a huge selection of equipment at all prices, There are cheap, low quality, machines, but there are still high quality machines available. They just seem so very expensive compared to the run of the mill far east stuff.
We have Screwfix, Toolstation and other retail outfits, open all hours, on-line ordering. You can get most stuff, click and collect, or next day. You can get all kinds of stuff direct from China at ridiculous low prices. We have a good second hand market for used equipment and Marketplace/Gumtree/Ebay to sell or buy. It's a complete revolution. I love it! I'll be moving house before long and one of the factors in deciding where to stay, is how far the nearest cluster of Screwfix/Toolstation is   
There has been a decline in good old British Manufacturing, but that would happen anyway. The world is changing rapidly, but a lot of it is positive change. People have more time on their hands and much more disposable income. You just need to look at the expansion of companies like Screwfix and Toolstation to see there must be lot of people doing this kind of stuff.


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## marcros (31 Dec 2020)

have some faith. The youth of today are not as inept as you believe them to be. Interests may have changed and skills are (in many cases) different.

The skills that many graduates and even school leavers have now probably dont include woodwork, metal work, home economics and car maintenance. That doesn't mean that they are unskilled.


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## billw (31 Dec 2020)

My B&D drill is so old it says "Made in England" on it.

I took up woodworking because my job was professional and you never end up with anything to show for your work. With more automation and less jobs I can see hobbies and interests like this making a comeback at some point.


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## Sandyn (31 Dec 2020)

We all sound just like our Fathers!!!!!


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## gregmcateer (31 Dec 2020)

marcros said:


> have some faith. The youth of today are not as inept as you believe them to be. Interests may have changed and skills are (in many cases) different.
> 
> The skills that many graduates and even school leavers have now probably dont include woodwork, metal work, home economics and car maintenance. That doesn't mean that they are unskilled.



I agree. Yes, as said above, it's a heart break to see loss of engineering, woodwork, etc in schools, but just my own kids as an example, (not bigging them up, just I know them best).
They are INFINITELY more socially, environmentally, race, creed, colour, gender.... aware and tolerant than previous generations. Yeah, they sit on crapchat, faceache, instaspam etc, too much, but also they do learn from around the world, not just our narrow Britain-centric perspective. My son has pretty self taught Caribbean cooking, hence tonight's goat curry with plantain and ackee and callaloo - woohoo!

Keep the faith, folks. Dem kids ain't gonna screw the world up, methinks


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## marcros (31 Dec 2020)

gregmcateer said:


> I agree. Yes, as said above, it's a heart break to see loss of engineering, woodwork, etc in schools, but just my own kids as an example, (not bigging them up, just I know them best).
> They are INFINITELY more socially, environmentally, race, creed, colour, gender.... aware and tolerant than previous generations. Yeah, they sit on crapchat, faceache, instaspam etc, too much, but also they do learn from around the world, not just our narrow Britain-centric perspective. My son has pretty self taught Caribbean cooking, hence tonight's goat curry with plantain and ackee and callaloo - woohoo!
> 
> Keep the faith, folks. Dem kids ain't gonna screw the world up, methinks



curry goat, not goat curry!!!


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## Amateur (31 Dec 2020)

A few years ago I visited the Birmingham Exhibition Centre to see the professional woodworking machinery exhibition.
I stood in awe as a chap loaded a block of wood into a machine that milled, drilled and machined a delicate butterfly that was unbelievably thin section and detailed. It changed the tools then placed the finished article into a tray.
Another company has another machine set up making chairs for dining tables, knocking them out at a ridiculous rate. The thing here was providing you bought six sets including carvers as an option they cost virtually nothing to purchase. 
Our capabilities are still there but a few years later who really needs a dining table and six or eight chairs when we've swapped tradition for take aways in front of the telly?


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## gregmcateer (31 Dec 2020)

Marcros
Head bowed, I stand corrected .
But I still get to eat it tonight


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Dec 2020)

I had to fit a three port valve. I looked at the wiring and took fright, so I rang a sparks I didn't know (my tame one was away). He was very helpful and told me that if I was a bit handy the wiring diagrams were on line, but to call back if I needed him. The wiring in itself was simple ............. but the wiring on the household side wasn't so I called him. He did the job and told me I was wise to have stopped.
I told my wife later that paying someone really bugged me and she asked how long it was since I'd paid anyone to work on the house. I thought about it and said other than a small electrical job about fifteen years, She said considering the work that had been done over that time I should feel proud rather be beating myself up about paying someone for an hour.

The reason I say this is because had I not done the work I couldn't have afforded the house. My children will be the same, although my 25 y. o. daughter's (bought her house just before Xmas) man is a builder. We live in an area with some of the highest prices and lowest wages in the Country, so there are many tens of thousands of young people who, unless they can do a certain amount of work themselves will not not be able to own houses. This is more applicable now than 15 - 20 years ago. They all have to start and learn somewhere.


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## Nigel Burden (31 Dec 2020)

Both my children live in the village. Both are not into DIY, especially my son. So when they both bought flats within four months of each other, guess who was called on to decorate etc. The flats had both been owned by elderly ladies and needed a fair amount of work, especially the daughters which had wood chip wallpaper on almost all walls that needed re-plastering after stripping. The whole process was a rude awakening to both of them, but I bet that I'll still be called on to help, in other words do most of it. 

As the average property price in Corfe Mullen is in excess of £400K, a run down flat is all they could afford on one salary. 

Nigel.


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## Nigel Burden (31 Dec 2020)

This makes interesting reading regarding property prices in relation to salary.

House Prices vs Income in the UK | Compare the Market 

Nigel.


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## paulrbarnard (31 Dec 2020)

gregmcateer said:


> Keep the faith, folks. Dem kids ain't gonna screw the world up, methinks


With luck they will clear up the mess we have made.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Spectric said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> Well I think the world has always changed but it is now the sheer pace of change that is making it so much more noticable and the newer generations are not so hands on, just happy to walk around as a phone zombie staring at the screen and sharing meaningless trivia. Why, because there is more cash around and everyone wants everything now, the days of kids building bikes from secondhand parts and building models from balsa & Airfix kits seems to have gone, do model shops even exist anymore! so growing up using their hands has also gone, how many ten year olds now could repair a puncture? This theme carries on in life, we used to accept that not everyone is academic and so had technical colleges and apprenticeships but now every one has to go to uni and get a degree in something and then get a job in McDonalds or some other junk food establishment to help the obesity crisis expand. So you have less people with a hands on interest and therefore less demand for things like woodworking machinery and tools because it has just not been planted in them by their dads from a young age. You may have noticed also that there is no longer as many good woodworking books being published, many seem to have been around the late nineties and now fewer are being written, less demand or has online video replaced them. So if in twenty years it has decayed to this level can you imagine in say another thirty, it will be a zombie apocalypse with many more people wandering around looking lost, staring at phone screens and posting even more stupid digitally altered photos of themselves, with the females looking like they have swallowed the sink plunger and living on junk food with no hobbies.


And a happy new year to you to Spectric!


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## Just4Fun (31 Dec 2020)

Terry - Somerset said:


> 50 years on there is limited manufacturing left in the UK.


That could be open to interpretation. I read somewhere that manufacturing, measured by £ value, has always increased year-on-year in the UK. What has declined is the number of people employed in manufacturing. Fewer and fewer people produce more and more. Much the same happened to agriculture before that. I have not checked the statistics but I would not be surprised if this is true.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Dec 2020)

Interesting. I don't know what counts as the S.W. but I suspect it's a lot larger area than I would say it was - probably up to Swindon.  £175,000 average house price? This is the poorest area, and £175,000 would just about get you on the ladder. £300,000 - £400,000 would buy you a decent enough house. My neighbour in an adjoining two bedroom bungalow was told a few weeks ago to to put it on the market for £235,000 - but to ensure she had somewhere to move to as she would sell it the week it went on the market..


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Dec 2020)

paulrbarnard said:


> With luck they will clear up the mess we have made.


Just what our parents said.


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## Cabinetman (31 Dec 2020)

Just4Fun said:


> That could be open to interpretation. I read somewhere that manufacturing, measured by £ value, has always increased year-on-year in the UK. What has declined is the number of people employed in manufacturing. Fewer and fewer people produce more and more. Much the same happened to agriculture before that. I have not checked the statistics but I would not be surprised if this is true.


 I don’t know any figures, but I would suspect that what we produce now in this country is very high-end and technologically brilliant or highly skilled niche market or world beating music and film etc. so we have moved away from high volume low value mass produced tut. 
I think that now we will be able to reach out to tariff free markets that were restricted before and that this country will prosper, well that’s my hope for New Year’s Eve. Ian


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## Nigel Burden (31 Dec 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Interesting. I don't know what counts as the S.W. but I suspect it's a lot larger area than I would say it was - probably up to Swindon.  £175,000 average house price? This is the poorest area, and £175,000 would just about get you on the ladder. £300,000 - £400,000 would buy you a decent enough house. My neighbour in an adjoining two bedroom bungalow was told a few weeks ago to to put it on the market for £235,000 - but to ensure she had somewhere to move to as she would sell it the week it went on the market..



The S.W. up until the 1970s, when they threw Bournemouth and Christchurch into Dorset, started at the Dorset/Hampshire border in the East and included Devon, Cornwall, and Somerset, but Wiltshire and Gloucestershire are sometimes included.

My three bedroom semi would sell for between £300,000 and £330,000 depending on condition, maybe up to £350,000. My adjoining neighbour has just sold his house, it was on the market for £328,000, and it needed work doing. Some new built properties in the village are selling at from just under £300,00 for a two bedroom, and around £400,00 for a three bed.

I guess the situation in some parts of Dorset regarding second homes is just as bad as Cornwall judging by what the breeder of my daughters dog told us. She lived at the time in Acton, an old quarrying village just a couple of miles from Swanage. Of thirty three properties, twenty seven were second homes or holiday lets.

Nigel.


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## Nigel Burden (31 Dec 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Just what our parents said.



Father would have said that we'll make an even bigger mess of it. 

Nigel.


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## Rorschach (31 Dec 2020)

Just4Fun said:


> That could be open to interpretation. I read somewhere that manufacturing, measured by £ value, has always increased year-on-year in the UK. What has declined is the number of people employed in manufacturing. Fewer and fewer people produce more and more. Much the same happened to agriculture before that. I have not checked the statistics but I would not be surprised if this is true.



Our manufacturing is much more automated than it once was but also we tend to produce high spec, high value items, like jet engines and military hardware.


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## doctor Bob (31 Dec 2020)

Rorschach said:


> Our manufacturing is much more automated than it once was but also we tend to produce high spec, high value items, like jet engines and military hardware.


...... and bespoke kitchens ...........  

being serious, when you look at the rest of the world kitchens, especially USA ones our UK traditional high end kitchens are the nuts


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Dec 2020)

... my UK traditional high end kitchens are the nuts 

Ftfy.


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## artie (31 Dec 2020)

doctor Bob said:


> ...... and bespoke kitchens ...........
> 
> being serious, when you look at the rest of the world kitchens, especially USA ones our UK traditional high end kitchens are the nuts


When my now deceased uncle visited a few years ago from Canada, he thought my sisters B&Q kitchen was out of this world.
He kept opening the cupboard door to see the bin lid raising automatically.
To be fair he was from a generation that didn't have much, and when older didn't want much except a fat bank account.


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## NickVanBeest (1 Jan 2021)

Happy 2021 everyone!

We're all doomed to repeat history, until we have it properly documented, and learn from our mistakes...


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## clogs (1 Jan 2021)

I don't think it the working lads that trashed the UK ...apart from Unions that outlived their usefulness....
it was the easy money, get rich quick brigade in suits that did the damage...when u've got money it's easy to get more makeing second homes etc available.....
My dad fixed up our grotty house in North London with a rubbish chisel a pen knife and a beat up old hammer...dont mention the panel saw..
he'd roll over in his grave if he could see what we have now......
when I cam back from California I brought back 5 Makita drill drivers etc etc (not available in the UK) he could not beleive it....
travel not only broadens the mind but forces up standards.....
In the US u can now buy Euro style kitchens, the average kitchen there was just that, average but for a "Few Dollars More" decent kitchen were available.....but like the UK only more of them (people) they couldn't afford the fancy ones....
Also and we're getting the same, everything is disposable inc kitchens....

to get a better return on my rental prop I have to bin/upgrade the kitchen and 3 bathrooms...it will pay dividens over the next 5 years.....but they are fine now, just out of fashion.....!!!!
when I think back as child in London we had an outside privey and a tin bath on a nail.....
Progeress in deed...
have a great new year......one and all.....


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## Blackswanwood (1 Jan 2021)

clogs said:


> when I think back as child in London we had an outside privey and a tin bath on a nail.....


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## Peri (1 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> .............the days of kids building bikes from secondhand parts and building models from balsa & Airfix kits seems to have gone, do model shops even exist anymore! so growing up using their hands has also gone, how many ten year olds now could repair a puncture? This theme carries on in life, we used to accept that not everyone is academic and so had technical colleges and apprenticeships but now every one has to go to uni and get a degree in something and then get a job in McDonalds...............



(My turn to sound like my dad)

I work in the engineering dept of a technical college, and we staff often say exactly the same. 
All the 'hands on' staff (those teaching milling, turning, welding, pneumatics, hydraulics etc etc) - and we're all, without exception, over 50 - grew up with parents either in the trades, or who took working with tools as a very serious hobby. A lot of the 16 or 17 year olds we get through the doors have never even held a spanner before coming to us. Many of them will limp through one of our courses, having no real interest in being there, doing the bare minimum, and will never own any tools in their life - as their parents don't.

Every year though there are a handful that have some sort of switch thrown. They fall in love with a lathe or a mig welder and you can't teach them fast enough. They want to work through breaks and are asking for extra work - so I haven't entirely given up hope ! 

I do wonder what education will be like in 20 years when we've all retired though. Not so long back we had a young 'university qualified engineer' join us - he asked a staff member to give a talk to his group about pillar drills because he'd never used one. "I'm not the type of engineer that gets his hands dirty".


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## Peri (1 Jan 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> View attachment 99916


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## MikeJhn (1 Jan 2021)

I have read every post here and agree and disagree in equal amounts with everything that has been said, except I don't think there is anything wrong with "goat curry"


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## Retired (1 Jan 2021)

Hi,

I've had and enjoyed a workshop from the age of 15 but now at 73;






Kind regards, Colin.


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## Spectric (1 Jan 2021)

Peri said:


> I do wonder what education will be like in 20 years when we've all retired though. Not so long back we had a young 'university qualified engineer' join us - he asked a staff member to give a talk to his group about pillar drills because he'd never used one. "I'm not the type of engineer that gets his hands dirty"


The best engineers come up through the ranks from the shop floor, starting with dirty hands and maybe ending up in the design department with clean hands. I have worked with the straight from uni type and most were as useful as a chocolate teapot. How can someone with a degree in electronic engineering have never used a soldering station or someone with a mechanical qualification never seen an epicyclic gear train! Engineering is as much something you feel as it is academic, you can do all the maths, calculations and modeling you want but often it is your experience and gut feeling that tells you whether the results are credable or nonsense. I remember some futuristic film where everything was automated or robotic and one day it all stopped because some part broke and the automated systems could not make a new one but luckily they found some guy who had a manual machine who did make a new one to get everything running, are we heading down this path?


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## Terry - Somerset (1 Jan 2021)

I understand benefit of having hands on skills which provides intuitive insights into what does and does not work.

However, in a many areas we have designed out the need for hands on skills. We replace modules rather than individual components. Design is geared towards automating and reducing production costs rather than easing repair. Products are increasingly reliable. 

Practical skills are needed in the design process, but much less in post sales support. Optimising production processes is as much about IT, logistics, processes etc as hands on engineering skills.

A solution may be to elevate the esteem and value attached to practical skills.

One approach may be to balance currently more academic engineering degree level education with a practical component (perhaps 30%). Candidates would need to get a "pass" in both the academic and practical elements of the course to be awarded a degree.


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## Trextr7monkey (1 Jan 2021)

Interesting thread that I can identify with - born late 50s, mining village, bicycles, motor bikes, cars classic cars....
For nearly 20 years I ran the workshops in a small private school. We had plenty of freedom and we kept traditional skills going alongside cnc. I was lucky to have 2 highly experienced old guys working with me and we chose exam courses that encouraged creativity rather than competence. We also encouraged girls to maintain their interest beyond the first few years. 
Looking back we helped several architects and engineers and interior designers on their way but also gave kids the can do approach to life and it’s difficulties. We also had super enthusiastic people from farms and family businesses who were desperate to learn as much as possible.
I think there’s still hope!


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## MikeJhn (1 Jan 2021)

The demise of Brixton School of Building was the start of the rot for Structural Engineers and Architects, can you imagine one of these modern professionals laying bricks and then having to render the wall the following week.


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## Peri (1 Jan 2021)

True story

A construction lecturer was talking to a new group of students, when asked if any of them knew what they were doing, one 17 year old kid said he had a distinction in bricklaying from school.
"OK, everything you need is over in that corner, start building a wall, I'll be back in 10 minutes"
When he came back, the kid was looking a bit lost.
"Whats the problem?" asked the lecturer.
The kid said "I didn't actually do any brick laying - the teacher built the wall and we wrote about how it was done"

Perhaps already there aren't enough skilled people in teaching to give kids the time and training a lot of them want or deserve,


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jan 2021)

Trextr7monkey said:


> ... I was lucky to have 2 highly experienced old guys working with me ...



I remember reading in the Press ages ago a letter from an old chap who said he was fortunate to have been at school during WW2, as his woodwork master was a retired joiner and his metalwork master a retired blacksmith.


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## Trextr7monkey (1 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe one was a 70 year old retired turner who had started work aged 14 and had risen through ranks at Royal Ordnance to production manager level. We kept 3 manual lathes and a small vertical milling machine which he loved. The other chap had started in quality control at same R0 but had gone into teaching and was a retired head of department. He had a massive shed kingdom in his garden and liked making guitars and chairs etc along with basic electronics.
My replacement was a cnc bloke so I hope things continue to progress


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## Spectric (1 Jan 2021)

Collin

What periods that phone from as I can remember my Nans one in Romford, black bakelite but that had a slide out note pad in the front bottom to store phone numbers on.


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## paulrbarnard (1 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> The best engineers come up through the ranks from the shop floor, starting with dirty hands and maybe ending up in the design department with clean hands. I have worked with the straight from uni type and most were as useful as a chocolate teapot. How can someone with a degree in electronic engineering have never used a soldering station or someone with a mechanical qualification never seen an epicyclic gear train! Engineering is as much something you feel as it is academic, you can do all the maths, calculations and modeling you want but often it is your experience and gut feeling that tells you whether the results are credable or nonsense. I remember some futuristic film where everything was automated or robotic and one day it all stopped because some part broke and the automated systems could not make a new one but luckily they found some guy who had a manual machine who did make a new one to get everything running, are we heading down this path?



When I did my apprenticeship we use to say the fresh graduates didn’t know which was the hot end of a soldering iron. The company I worked for actually sent me to do a degree and then I became a design engineer. 45 years later I’m the CTO of a high tech company doing AI based perception systems for the automotive industry. I’m still the one who has to make up any special cables, install kit in cars and generally solve any issue outside of the norm. This is despite having a team of several hundred degree, masters and PhD qualified engineers working for me. One of my daughters works for the company as a field application engineer and she is now able to handle the bulk of the vehicle setup and cable making. She has been getting an unofficial apprenticeship from me. It’s quite telling when a large automotive manufacturer specifically requests my daughter to fly to the US or Japan to install kit rather than one of the regular engineers.


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## Peri (1 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> Collin
> 
> What periods that phone from as I can remember my Nans one in Romford, black bakelite but that had a slide out note pad in the front bottom to store phone numbers on.



You know you're getting old when people ask "What period is that from" when talking about things you grew up with !!  


Edit - Not long ago I was looking for some technical drawing pens (The Rotring/Marsmatic type) that I used to use in tech drawing class at school. I found some on ebay listed under 'Antique Drawing instruments' !


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## marcros (1 Jan 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> When I did my apprenticeship we use to say the fresh graduates didn’t know which was the hot end of a soldering iron. The company I worked for actually sent me to do a degree and then I became a design engineer. 45 years later I’m the CTO of a high tech company doing AI based perception systems for the automotive industry. I’m still the one who has to make up any special cables, install kit in cars and generally solve any issue outside of the norm. This is despite having a team of several hundred degree, masters and PhD qualified engineers working for me. One of my daughters works for the company as a field application engineer and she is now able to handle the bulk of the vehicle setup and cable making. She has been getting an unofficial apprenticeship from me. It’s quite telling when a large automotive manufacturer specifically requests my daughter to fly to the US or Japan to install kit rather than one of the regular engineers.



That is ridiculous. Doing a PhD and they didn't even teach them how to solder? Next you will say that they don't know how to change the oil in their car either. Crazy times that we live in.


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## MikeJhn (1 Jan 2021)

You can tell a good kitchen unit, they don't use a hardboard back to hold the unit square.


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## paulrbarnard (1 Jan 2021)

marcros said:


> That is ridiculous. Doing a PhD and they didn't even teach them how to solder? Next you will say that they don't know how to change the oil in their car either. Crazy times that we live in.


Nope. They can deal with washing the outside and emptying out the trash but anything else they don't have a clue. I've had to talk engineers we have sent to the field through finding a blown fuse and replacing it on more han one occation. I actually finished up writing a manual on how to find fuses after the second time. 

That said they can kick my ass on complex math and algorithm development.
Edit: Got to add the one of the funniest examples. I asked one of the engineers to make up a cable and told him to make it tidy by using heat shrink sleeving. I eventually saw the cable he had made up and the heat shring was just pushed on, loosely, to the cable. He had failed to connect the name "heat shrink sleeving" with the need to apply heat to it to shrink it into place...


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jan 2021)

Years ago on several occasions I had to look after a group of12 - 15 Americans from a company manufacturing meat processing equipment. These were men educated to at least masters level, and most had qualifications well over and above that. Much of the development was done here on the hoof as apparently there isn't a market in the States for bacon slicing machinery - these were £500,000 machines, being sold a dozen at a time.
They had a big ongoing problem, and one night I listened to the conversation. One chap said look, all you need to do is make X smaller, Y larger, speed up A and slow down B (something along those lines) and it'll work. They disagreed but as no one else had an answer they'd give it a go.
Much celebration the following night - it worked. I spoke to the chap on his own later and asked what he actually did in the set up - oh, he said, I'm just the grease monkey.


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jan 2021)

Peri said:


> Edit - Not long ago I was looking for some technical drawing pens (The Rotring/Marsmatic type) that I used to use in tech drawing class at school. I found some on ebay listed under 'Antique Drawing instruments' !



Rather like "vintage" Record Marples planes.


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## Peri (1 Jan 2021)

Damn things (the pens) are made of plastic - who thinks that plastic is antique [email protected]%$


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## Cheshirechappie (1 Jan 2021)

Peri said:


> Damn things (the pens) are made of plastic - who thinks that plastic is antique [email protected]%$



Well, it's been around since 1869, apparently, so that fits most people's idea of antique. Fourth paragraph down ...

History and Future of Plastics | Science History Institute


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## kinverkid (1 Jan 2021)

gregmcateer said:


> Marcros
> Head bowed, I stand corrected .
> But I still get to eat it tonight


I can smell it from here.


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## Peri (1 Jan 2021)

Wow


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## Amateur (1 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> ... my UK traditional high end kitchens are the nuts
> 
> Ftfy.


 During the 70s I worked for a while with moben kitchens...now defunked I think.
Salesmen would knock doors from leads and cold calls.
If they were lucky they would sit and draw out a plan and measure up for the kitchen giving a price.
If they converted to sales the drawings were checked and an installation team went in.
I was told to go and look at a complaint in manchester.
The kitchen was a very narrow galley type and only one person could walk it at a time it was so tight.
The lady showered me the problem.
She opened a window at the side of the sink, pulled a lever on the opposite side and an ironing board popped out.
When she extended the ironing board it went full width of the galley and out of the window on the opposite side.
I later found out the company was pushing these at a high premium and an incentive for the salesmen.
She wasn't very happy.
I think kitchen design and sales techniques have come a long way since then but there are still some ruthless companies out there never the less.
or maybe the salesmen?


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## Amateur (1 Jan 2021)

You only have to look at the Boeing 737 max engine being designed too low to see big goolies happen today.
And this got through to full blown production because someone forgot the basics.


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## HamsterJam (1 Jan 2021)

Peri said:


> A lot of the 16 or 17 year olds we get through the doors have never even held a spanner before coming to us. Many of them will limp through one of our courses, having no real interest in being there, doing the bare minimum, and will never own any tools in their life - as their parents don't.


Happy New Year everyone.
All three of my kids are fairly handy and Santa gave them each a toolkit this year, including my daughter. Just simple tools like screwdrivers, spanner’s and a small socket set but its a start.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jan 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> I asked one of the engineers to make up a cable and told him to make it tidy by using heat shrink sleeving. I eventually saw the cable he had made up and the heat shring was just pushed on, loosely, to the cable. He had failed to connect the name "heat shrink sleeving" with the need to apply heat to it to shrink it into place...



The bicycle racks outside my GP's surgery (where incidentally I've never, ever seen a bicycle) are fixed to the wall with shear nuts. The nuts haven't been broken off in the forty two years they've been there.


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## Notters (2 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> Collin
> 
> What periods that phone from as I can remember my Nans one in Romford, black bakelite but that had a slide out note pad in the front bottom to store phone numbers on.


Looks like telephone 706 from the 70's


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## Notters (2 Jan 2021)

Sorry tele 232


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## doctor Bob (2 Jan 2021)

Notters said:


> Sorry tele 232



Schoolboy error, anymore of that and you'll be barred from the telephone spotters club, you will have to hand back your anorak and notebook .............. think on, more home work and study needed.


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## Glitch (2 Jan 2021)

Globalisation has changed things greatly in my lifetime - cheaper to get stuff made abroad. Far less need to develop traditional skills here. Used to be the simple stuff but the more complex manufacturing goes abroad too. Based on cheap labour which will eventually get more expensive and less value. 

I worked with some great programmers but the industry decided to outsource to India. Then it took 5 (cheap) resources to try to do the job of one home grown resource. After you've got rid of your own skilled resources they have you over a barrel. Now they're trying to bring jobs back onshore!

Also, we now live in a throwaway society. If something breaks you often just throw it away and buy a new one. Built in obsolescence makes you buy more.
In the old days you could repair stuff, or make a new one from salvaged components. Few people really know how things work these days. 
I sometimes despair at my sons lack of practical skills but in reality they don't need them.


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## Cooper (2 Jan 2021)

I've found this thread rather depressing, as a retired D&T teacher. I had very few colleagues with proper practical skills. only those who had converted from industry weren't frightened of a lathe. My replacement was even scared of a CNC lather we had been given by the Worshipful Company of Turners and passed it on to another school. Even the 3D printer was put away!!
Anyway the chat about phones has cheered me up. This is our one.
Cheers
Martin


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## DrPhill (2 Jan 2021)

This thread really strikes a chord with me.... so here is one of my favourites: Make it, mend it, wear it out.....


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## MikeJhn (2 Jan 2021)

I can remember our first telephone number, North 5532 none of this 01 nonsense.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jan 2021)

I remember speaking with the late Patrick Moore at the time of the eclipse. He told us he 'd found papers belonging to his grandfather - his phone number was London 2.

I remember my mother's house being finished in 1979, about the time the regulations had changed - you could buy your phone instead of having to rent it. A chap I knew was a telephone engineer and we were chatting one night about it. He said tell your mother under no circumstances should she stop renting one - there was three quarters of a mile of line from her house over quite rough country she'd be liable for if she used her own phone.

I remember having to phone for a coastguard on Alderney in 1968 - a yacht had hung itself due to being roped too tightly and the tidal drop being so great - it was a wind up phone, the only one I'd ever seen let alone used.


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## Droogs (2 Jan 2021)

Cooper said:


> I've found this thread rather depressing, as a retired D&T teacher. I had very few colleagues with proper practical skills. only those who had converted from industry weren't frightened of a lathe. My replacement was even scared of a CNC lather we had been given by the Worshipful Company of Turners and passed it on to another school. Even the 3D printer was put away!!
> Anyway the chat about phones has cheered me up. This is our one.
> Cheers
> Martin
> View attachment 100053


Whitehall 1212 please


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## NickVanBeest (2 Jan 2021)

Telephone nostalgia!  

Grew up in South Africa, and when visiting my sister on the farm, they still had those winding telephones, where you would pick up the receiver, listen whether anybody was busy, ask "Line free?" to be sure... then replace the receiver, spin the handle, pick up, and wait for the operator's "Number please?"

They were sharing the line with 8 other farms, and each farm had a different ring sequence (short, short, long, for instance) and that would be how you knew there was an incoming call for you!


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## Keith 66 (2 Jan 2021)

Peri said:


> Every year though there are a handful that have some sort of switch thrown. They fall in love with a lathe or a mig welder and you can't teach them fast enough. They want to work through breaks and are asking for extra work - so I haven't entirely given up hope !



I worked in a 6th form College as D&T & engineering technician for 12 years then 5 more as D&T in a secondary school.
I echo "Peri's" sentiments as my experience in college was very similar. When i went to work in the school i was lucky enough to work on a one to one basis with a very good lady teacher who was seriously good at inspiring the kids, she had next to no metalworking experience & her woodwork experience was similar. However her CAD & laser skills were excellent & she saw that i knew what i was doing.
And so we made a good team, the kids did really well & in the two years we worked together the results were the best for years.
After she left i was lucky to work with three more good teachers but the sylabus had changed & the new GCSE is so awful as to be embarrasing. I found it really sad that every year we would get new kids coming in & a goodly proportion of them really wanted to make things. But the sylabus did not allow for it. Today the D&T gcse is 99% theory & the year 11 final project is given just 7 hours, Teachers are not allowed to mark for quality, rather the idea behind it gets better marks.
And so a project that has a good idea behind it but is made of cardboard dollops of hot glue & duct tape may well attract better marks than a finished article well made that a kid has taken pride in making.
To see the kids who were of a practical bent being disillusioned in this way was soul destroying.
Our system is letting kids down.
On the bright side my son is now a qualified electrical engineer & can turn his hand to just about anything! He is lucky that he has access to my well kitted workshop!


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## doctor Bob (2 Jan 2021)

I remember my Nan having a shared line, somehow by the ring she could tell whether it was for her or Mrs Duckett. Never knew how I would have been about 4 or 5.


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## paulrbarnard (2 Jan 2021)

I remember our first phone number was 287. A few years later they added 64 to the front making it 64287. After that they added STD codes and another digit.


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## Vann (3 Jan 2021)

I still remember our first phone number: 2758-D. It was a party line and we knew when the call was for us because the operator would ring _long short short _- morse code for "D".

As for kids. My 29 year old son is an economist, my 19 year old daughter works part time as a waitress, but my 16 year old daughter has both interest and skills at making things. I've taught her to use my 30" bandsaw safely, and the SCMS. But I still insist she has my supervision when using the 18" Wadkin table saw.

Early last year she asked a teacher if they had any Forstner bits. "What are they?" was the reply. I'm proud.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Gavlar (3 Jan 2021)

Peri said:


> (My turn to sound like my dad)
> 
> I work in the engineering dept of a technical college, and we staff often say exactly the same.
> All the 'hands on' staff (those teaching milling, turning, welding, pneumatics, hydraulics etc etc) - and we're all, without exception, over 50 - grew up with parents either in the trades, or who took working with tools as a very serious hobby. A lot of the 16 or 17 year olds we get through the doors have never even held a spanner before coming to us. Many of them will limp through one of our courses, having no real interest in being there, doing the bare minimum, and will never own any tools in their life - as their parents don't.
> ...


 
I was a civil engineer once, and although career changes have happened along the way I still think in 'engineer'. My son, 16, is a term into an Engineering BTec at the local 6th form. He has taught himself 3D printing, has two printers and is constantly upgrading them. He's designed and made all sorts of stuff, yesterday a mitre fence for my table saw and a new handle for a file. He wants to do an engineering apprenticeship after the BTec and I am hopeful for his future. Engineering is changing but it's still very relevant.


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