# I'm worried about what people will think after I die...



## D_W (28 Jun 2021)

..OK, the title is actually a scenario - it's not my scenario. I'm worried about quality of life and doing meaningful things while I'm alive. 

I have a relative who has spent his life generating money and investing it into an absolutely bonkers absurd amount while he lives on the state pension level of income. He spent decades in some odd mode of worrying about becoming poor somehow (50 of him could live on his means and be comfortable - maybe more). He was raised that way, but for some reason, making the pile bigger increases his satisfaction. He wanted to give the money to his kids, but they're already set for life, too (thanks to imitating dad) - and they haven't met his criteria for being absurdly enriched - having children and creating generational wealth and comfort that he sought. 

So in the last two or three years, he's suddenly realized that his money will outlive him by a large amount and he's horribly concerned about what will happen with the money, and whether or not he'll think the spending of it is approvable by him (as in, he would like to see people have chances to take the profession that he took in - a branch of applied mathematics as well as automation and computing applied to it - that would be OK. Lots of other things wouldn't). 

I've never known him to worry about anything but accumulation, so this is a funny thing and I always torture him with "if I were you, I would worry about what I wanted out of the rest of my life, which could be short at your age, and I guarantee if you do some basic legwork and line up where your money is going (none is going to me, that's for sure!!), I guarantee if you don't let it bother you while you're alive, it won't bother you while you're dead". He laughs nervously - as if he can't make the rational step to knowing that he won't notice anything at dirt temperature. 

-----

Enter scenario 2 - my MIL has a plot in a cemetery. It was purchased probably 40 years ago with her husband. They switched churches and now she doesn't love the overlook that the cemetery sees. She's very worried that people will think she's an silly person for having such a plot after she dies. My wife is into this kind of thing, too - worried about being embarrassed (I am a constant source of embarrassment for her, whether I'm disagreeing with her in public or not wearing the right clothes for the occasion, etc). I ask my MIL - what does your plot matter? It's a nice church. There's a highway in view a mile away where it used to be rolling hills, but you won't be able to see it. Within a few years, the people walking through the cemetery will have no clue who you are, and the other people you're afraid of passing judgement are thinking about themselves 99.5% of the time, anyway. They're not going to make the effort to pass judgement. 

She says "they will think I'm an silly person for having a plot that overlooks a valley with an interstate". She's very concerned about that and I cannot convince her that she won't be able to feel embarrassment. 

Why do people care so much about things like that unless there's a meaningful consequence (e.g., the constant worry that we will die and someone will get our tools for half price at the cost of our spouse - if our spouse is materially affected by that - mine probably won't be - then it's an issue. If they won't be, then we should think about ourselves selling all of their decorations around the house - would we care? No. Why do we wind ourselves up about stuff like that? I don't at this point - knowing I won't be here, I don't care if whoever is left burns all of it. I just hope it's not a burden (and it won't be, because my spouse will give it all away to a haulage firm).


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## Spectric (28 Jun 2021)

Not an unusual synario, some people just live for money, more money and then even more money and there will never be enough to satisfy them, but if you leave huge sums then have you fully lived and reaped the rewards from earning it in the first place. When you are no more then it is better if people remember you for being a kind helpful type of person and not a grumpy old miser who just wasted there life counting money.


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## Cabinetman (28 Jun 2021)

Yes it’s very strange, I think that once you’re gone you’re gone, and convinced there is nothing of an afterlife either.


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## Rorschach (28 Jun 2021)

People think and do stupid things. Life is short, if making plans for their death gives them comfort now, don't mock them or try to convince them, just try and make them happy.

For your MIL, help her find a new plot. For your other relative, help them find a way to bequeath their money that will make them feel happy.


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## Selwyn (28 Jun 2021)

Money may not be the absolute. Its the thrill of earning, or its the tool which enables them to feel me secure.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Jun 2021)

My mother used to visit my sister in NZ every second year for three months. She debated buying a property there (30 years ago - affordable then) so she could have six months here, six there - no winters. The only reason she didn't was because she was afraid of dying there. I could never understand why it should make any difference.
A friend, a multi millionaire , spends his life worrying about his children wasting his money when he dies - which they will.

My wife knows my wishes when I die - chuck my body on a fire and a couple of grand on the bar.


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## D_W (28 Jun 2021)

Selwyn said:


> Money may not be the absolute. Its the thrill of earning, or its the tool which enables them to feel me secure.



This is the case - it was security at the outset, I'm sure - growing up poor and being told you can't have anything and then growing up and realizing that having things isn't what this person wanted (there's nothing flashy about him - still cuts his own hair). He's not a grouchy, unfriendly, or undergenerous guy - just unlikely to be spending his money on something frivolous.

I've met folks who have a lot of money and are really nice, and folks who spend all of their money but have a lot and it's them and their stuff against you because they're trying to keep something up. My mother used to question the same thing "why have all of that money if you don't spend it" (she's not in a good position to criticize, though - same thing, just with less money), but people who spend money for ego or appearance have married themselves to a fruitless exercise. And they're a pain to be around as they're always the type who end up on nonprofit boards, etc (and I end up dealing with them as a service provider - everything is about ego).

Not all are like that, but the relative of mine who lost contact with reality about how much he has is intensely satisfied because he's not worried about taking advantage of people (he'd never do that) and he's looking to be his person, not what someone else wants.


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## D_W (28 Jun 2021)

(the constant fear of being embarrassed by someone else or being embarrassed after death is MUCH less friendly to deal with in my experience). 

I'm trying to make sure it doesn't get passed to my kids.


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## artie (28 Jun 2021)

A few years ago, it dawned on me, that someone else's opinion of me, is none of my business.


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## Ollie78 (28 Jun 2021)

When you die you are just atoms for the universe to recycle as it sees fit.

My Dad mentioned something about inheritance to me the other day, I told him to spend it all on fun stuff and not worry about leaving a penny. 
I understand that wanting to leave something for your family comes from kindness but I think if he earned it he should spend it, they will only tax the heck out of it anyway.

In contrast I know some people who were actually concerned about what there mother would leave them, as if it is some kind of "right". I found this to be a shameful, entitled way of thinking and was kind of surprised they thought this way.

Ollie


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## D_W (28 Jun 2021)

I agree with your assessment and have said the same to my father, who mentions that he doesn't want to give away any money now (I'd gladly stuff it into my kids' college accounts without taking any of it), and boasts of the inheritance that he'll be leaving behind for us (the kids). 

I know him well enough to know that what gives him a thrill is simple stuff like watching sports and playing in golf league (which is free - he works part time at the course). But I've mentioned to him more than once ("please seek some estate planning somewhere else you or mother will end up in a specialty nursing home for a decade and someone will do something untoward and you'll lose the whole lot"). 

I hope he lives long enough that I don't need any additional money - which is what happened with his parents. They were "un-giving", let's say, while alive ("what's mine is mine"), and gave all to their kids when they died. By then, their kids didn't need it. 

I'm getting to the point slowly. In the US, the estate laws have a higher cutoff and it's possible to have generational wealth at a moderate level without getting taxed to death. That's very functional, and of the examples of family structure that I've seen - close knit families (parents giving their kids expectations and not just handing them money) with generational wealth are almost always more successful with greater comfort. They end up being doctors, engineers and such while other parents are boasting that they kicked their kids out at the age of majority and their kids are "hard workers because of it" (and destitute).


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## Spectric (28 Jun 2021)

Another issue with the offspring is that you really want them to make a go of life and work using their skills, wisdom and graft. It has often been said that the worst thing you can do is spoon feed the kids with a silver spoon and this can reduce their motivation to suceed, often said by the rich although an awful lot of them give the growing kids the lifestyle they have earned and they have done nothing. So what do you do with your worldly goods in your will, I would like to leave some of my tools to something like the mens shed group or to an aspiring young woodworker just to give them a kickstart.


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## D_W (28 Jun 2021)

This is the tight family part with expectations. The above-mentioned relative pushed his kids a little (not socially, but to do something valuable). They took the cue and have done that and in their 40s could retire permanently at any time). 

I've noticed around here in families with physician parents who are involved closely with the kids, the kids end up doing something similar. When someone is entirely into themselves and their career and figure their kids will just turn out (worked with some people like that) and their kids turn into lunks, they always act surprised - and find someone else to blame. 

The above mentioned physician thing here in the states is maybe unique because physicians may spend half a million dollars or more on schooling before they are out of residency. Each generation banks the next, generously giving money. 

Amish are another example. Amish parents generally set their kids up with land and a business or something similar when they set out, but the families are close and expectations for behavior are there. It's not uncommon for an amish business owner or farmer to build their kids a house, or move out of their own house and build a smaller house, giving the larger house or property to the kids when they get married. Starting the kids off in the clear with house and in some cases, a business or part of a business. Whatever they do, the kids who inherit the assets stay in line and continue to build on what they were given and then pass it along (some of this has to do with expectations from more than just parents - the bishop in the amish community controls your ability to function within the amish. If you get out of line, they will take control of your finances including controlling your financial transactions). This may sound like a myth to some, which is fine - except I know an amish trim carpenter and cabinetmaker who has to do his finances through his bishop. If he wants something for his shop, the bishop writes the check - not sure how long that arrangement will last, but he bounced a couple of checks and that's a no-go.


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## HappyHacker (29 Jun 2021)

My parents left most of their money, not life changing amounts, to my three daughters and I was happy with that. They had helped me when I was younger and if they have left it to me I would probably have wasted it on more tools . If by some circumstance I had not wasted it it would probably have incurred death tax when I died.

Estate panning is essential, I have seen cases where the surviving partner inherits, gets dementia, goes into a home and the Local Authority use all the money and sell the house to fund the care. I have read of the many cases where the elderly survivor of a marriage, offend with dementia, is persuaded to marry again, usually to a much younger person, and all the estate goes to the new partner when the survivor dies.

My uncle died without leaving a will as he did not want to pay for a solicitor. It cost a small fortune for solicitors fees to sort out the estate and that was with all the beneficiaries being in agreement. We will never know my uncles wishes.

Everyone should think about what they want to happen with their assets when they die and make a will, with professional advice, to ensure those wishes happen with minimum tax liabilities.


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## Keith 66 (29 Jun 2021)

A bloke i know is very wealthy, he is absolutely paranoid about money to the point of being an awful miser, investments everywhere & wont make a will "In case my wife finds out how much i have", I pity her & their kids if he pops his clogs unexpectedly.
There are no pockets in a shroud.


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## D_W (29 Jun 2021)

Keith 66 said:


> A bloke i know is very wealthy, he is absolutely paranoid about money to the point of being an awful miser, investments everywhere & wont make a will "In case my wife finds out how much i have", I pity her & their kids if he pops his clogs unexpectedly.
> There are no pockets in a shroud.



It sounds like his money owns him. There was a local here (this story is probably oft repeated) who was promoted quickly at work and obsessed with his title. He worked at a global audit firm but was horrified that his wife would spend his money so at each promotion, he'd understated what he was making and perhaps what his title was. A couple of decades in, he had his wife believing he made 1/4th of what he made. She found out and divorced him instantly. 

He was a nice guy. Something went wrong somewhere in his decision making, and he was still a nice guy afterwards. (can't ever get away from that story, though - "you know that guy? you hear about the story of him hiding money from his former wife?...."

Relative of mine mentioned above is so confident that not much changes, but you wouldn't gather that he's confident (not executive confidence, but comfort in being different and feeling like it's OK to be different). His wife was on board, but she predeceased him and it broke his heart. I'd translate worrying about what happens with your money as suddenly realizing it's real and being afraid that if it's wasted, you unknowingly made a hobby out of making, saving and investing it for nothing.


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## TRITON (29 Jun 2021)

I worry the afterlife is run by very wealthy Egyptian pharaohs.


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## Dangermouse 2nd (30 Jun 2021)

One thing is for sure, people wont be worrying about what your thinking about them, after you die !! lol


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## doctor Bob (30 Jun 2021)

People should do whatever they want with their money, hoard it, spend it, waste it. It is nobody elses business.


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## Trainee neophyte (30 Jun 2021)

"I spent most of my money on fast cars, fast women, drink and drugs. The rest I wasted."

If your happiness depends on what other people think of you, you're never going to be very happy. If your happiness depends on money, you're really going to struggle. 

Carpe Jugulum, as per Mr Pratchet. 

(I've just started reading How to be Free and I strongly recommend it - covers everything you need to be happy).


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## Amateur (30 Jun 2021)

You'd think that all salesmen were motivated by money. This is not the case. Some like the chase for the order, some like the esteem....
and rich folk??
well the poorer they dress the richer they are in some cases...
and take my sister for instance.....
now she lives to belittle people, brag about how much money she has, what property she has, how other families conduct themselves while her eldest son slit his wrists as a teenager because she pressurised him for under achieving at school........
yet through all this her husband puts up with it, says nothing and she keeps doing what she's always done oblivious to the hurt and upset she has caused.......

psychologist use this one too,

God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can 
and
Wisdom to know the difference.


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## RobinBHM (30 Jun 2021)

artie said:


> A few years ago, it dawned on me, that someone else's opinion of me, is none of my business.


silly person


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## RobinBHM (30 Jun 2021)

That's weird, that wasn't what I wrote....I never said "silly person" I said "i***t


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## D_W (30 Jun 2021)

artie said:


> A few years ago, it dawned on me, that someone else's opinion of me, is none of my business.



Ditto - this is why people who are easily embarrassed are difficult to deal with. It may be of no consequence to you or me (really, if one thinks further about it and doesn't have expectation that keeping a front of acceptability as far as all others are concerned is important, it's really no pain at all to disregard anyones' opinion when they suggest you don't measure up in their mind. 

As you slip away into bliss, if you're attached to someone who is conerned about that, though, you will be lassoed back in.


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## rafezetter (30 Jun 2021)

My Father has to my misfortune been a slave to "what other people think" all his life, he would often tell me that "what you do reflects on me" as though everyone knows who he is (he's a nobody like you, me and everyone else), and despite being a not particularly nice person himself. In later years he got himself on a board of a charity and ultimately became the chairperson, the same for a sailing club and again ultimately became "Commodore" (chair person), all the while continuing to be not a particularly nice person behind closed doors, and he still to this day has incredibly ridiculous foibles such as insisting curtains are always drawn on all the windows during the day (heaven forbid people walk past the house and think - "geez thier curtains are still drawn, they must still be in bed the lazy 'tards", and when drawn that they are to be drawn "evenly"; it's not OCD, it's because in his head people are walking past his £1.3 million home and judging him PERSONALLY on the fact the curtains are "uneven". When I started college at 19 (1989) he insisted I go wearing a tweed jacket, corduroy slacks, a shirt and tie, which he had chosen and bought for me without my knowledge - I think I was ONLY ONE in the entire campus dressed that way (remember it's 1989) - I did it for a week before having a very bad argument with him that ended in a physical altercation by him because I was "showing him up".

oh and that's just sparked a memory, at his wedding to his 2nd wife (I was about 11) he told his sister "make sure you and your kids don't show me up" because he didn't want his other guests, which were collegues and clients etc knowing his sister lived in a council house, and was a single mum with 3 kids (who then went on to become a paramedic, a Fireman and then Station Officer, and security staff at an airport respectively)

Some people just seem to go thorugh life thinking there is a sign above thier heads with thier name address etc and that other people are following them around watching what they are doing and keeping some kind of score, and although to some degree social media has made that a reality, for 99.9% of the worlds population, the rest of the 99.9% of the population JUST.DONT.GIVE.A.rubbish.ABOUT YOU. because they have no clue who you are, where you work, how much money you have, where you grew up, what school you went to and whether you are a member of the funny handshake brigade - which I forgot to mention my father is also a Freemason, oh and STILL uses Esq (Esquire) after his name for landmail as though that adds some kudos - without realising it actually makes most people think "pineapple".

I understand some of it is indoctrinated via the social customs of the time from thier childhood, and some others by forced indoctrination by parents, and yet more comes from a deep need for social status and recognition; that never actually arrives from anyone that matters other than from the other pineapples doing the same thing - but what I've never understood is that even after years of proof that no-one really cares, how someone can continue to beleive such nonsense matters to other people and allow it to become thier master.

(and just for the record, his money I've told him to shove it, not interested in having him laud that over me along with everytthing else until he dies, I still get my nose rubbed in my private school fees 35 years later.)


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## doctor Bob (30 Jun 2021)

rafezetter said:


> My Father has to my misfortune been a slave to "what other people think" all his life, he would often tell me that "what you do reflects on me" as though everyone knows who he is (he's a nobody like you, me and everyone else), and despite being a not particularly nice person himself. In later years he got himself on a board of a charity and ultimately became the chairperson, the same for a sailing club and again ultimately became "Commodore" (chair person), all the while continuing to be not a particularly nice person behind closed doors, and he still to this day has incredibly ridiculous foibles such as insisting curtains are always drawn on all the windows during the day (heaven forbid people walk past the house and think - "geez thier curtains are still drawn, they must still be in bed the lazy 'tards", and when drawn that they are to be drawn "evenly"; it's not OCD, it's because in his head people are walking past his £1.3 million home and judging him PERSONALLY on the fact the curtains are "uneven". When I started college at 19 (1989) he insisted I go wearing a tweed jacket, corduroy slacks, a shirt and tie, which he had chosen and bought for me without my knowledge - I think I was ONLY ONE in the entire campus dressed that way (remember it's 1989) - I did it for a week before having a very bad argument with him that ended in a physical altercation by him because I was "showing him up".
> 
> oh and that's just sparked a memory, at his wedding to his 2nd wife (I was about 11) he told his sister "make sure you and your kids don't show me up" because he didn't want his other guests, which were collegues and clients etc knowing his sister lived in a council house, and was a single mum with 3 kids (who then went on to become a paramedic, a Fireman and then Station Officer, and security staff at an airport respectively)
> 
> ...



at least you're over it ................


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## rafezetter (30 Jun 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> at least you're over it ................


Well quite, I'm clearly not, but that just shows how people with this sort of mindset can really damage those around them.

(and I will thank you for not mocking me about it, regardless of your personal feelings about me, my politics or viewpoints; whether you recall or not I was supportive when you posted about some serious business issues you were having middle of last year during lockdown, please kindly show me the same courtesy or say nothing)


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## D_W (1 Jul 2021)

rafezetter said:


> My Father has to my misfortune been a slave to "what other people think" all his life, he would often tell me that "what you do reflects on me" as though everyone knows who he is (he's a nobody like you, me and everyone else), and despite being a not particularly nice person himself. In later years he got himself on a board of a charity and ultimately became the chairperson, the same for a sailing club and again ultimately became "Commodore" (chair person), all the while continuing to be not a particularly nice person behind closed doors, and he still to this day has incredibly ridiculous foibles such as insisting curtains are always drawn on all the windows during the day (heaven forbid people walk past the house and think - "geez thier curtains are still drawn, they must still be in bed the lazy 'tards", and when drawn that they are to be drawn "evenly"; it's not OCD, it's because in his head people are walking past his £1.3 million home and judging him PERSONALLY on the fact the curtains are "uneven". When I started college at 19 (1989) he insisted I go wearing a tweed jacket, corduroy slacks, a shirt and tie, which he had chosen and bought for me without my knowledge - I think I was ONLY ONE in the entire campus dressed that way (remember it's 1989) - I did it for a week before having a very bad argument with him that ended in a physical altercation by him because I was "showing him up".
> 
> oh and that's just sparked a memory, at his wedding to his 2nd wife (I was about 11) he told his sister "make sure you and your kids don't show me up" because he didn't want his other guests, which were collegues and clients etc knowing his sister lived in a council house, and was a single mum with 3 kids (who then went on to become a paramedic, a Fireman and then Station Officer, and security staff at an airport respectively)
> 
> ...



A perfect example of what I mentioned earlier about people who are easily embarrassed being difficult to get along with. 

He's the opposite of my mentioned relative (who could very well be mid 8 figures, but loves a good carrier hat (the one that he served on and learned mathematics, which sparked him), and wears a flannel in the winter and pull on "ropers" (a style of relaxed boots in the US) that don't get polished. He drives a low/mid level GM products. 

He's massively entertaining to talk to - except that some folks get worn thin that he's not doing enough to impress people, or that he's not spending all of his time figuring out how to give his money away and be more empathetic to people (he gives money to animal rescue bits instead and has cast off disabled cats sometimes). 

None of my relatives are like your father - perhaps too lazy - it's a lot of work to be like that, but I have worked with people who are similar - what they don't realize is that they're running around with a crowd much like them - they are looking to see what they can gain from each other, but nobody from the outside likes them at all. They believe their behavior inside the house isn't known and they're keeping appearances outside such that everyone loves them and they're shocked to hear that someone doesn't (and can easily explain it away as never being them). The thing that i'm baffled by is that is a 7 day a week job and it's constant, all waking hours and sometimes leading to lost sleep - eventually the negativity is shown to so many people that it's not hidden from anyone, but in between it is a false face of being everyones' friend, and perhaps being generous, giving, etc, whatever it may be. In the background (this may not be your issue), there is greed and credit taking when available and resentment of other colleagues due to competitiveness. Any regular people like us who cross paths or work with or for the type generally are lost causes for ourselves. It's a transitory state to get through. 

(separately, about an hour ago, my wife told me I'm an embarrassment  That's a regular occurrence and she's not of means. For my spouse, it's my disorganization in my areas - but they are areas that nobody else needs to see. She's horrified of a scenario that will never occur....like perhaps friends or coworkers will say "you know what, we saw your husband's workspace. We're no longer going to talk to you, and we will be paying for a billboard to let everyone know. Everyone has to know about this. It has to be told - your husband maybe can't help it, but you could've and that makes you even worse than him!). 

I am sorry for your trouble with your dad, but recognize having a mother who is in the opposite direction (not interested in me, my sister or our kids - but there's nothing we can do about it, no reason for it in particular - it just is). I've thought about it from time to time, and my wife (who is easily embarrassed) often goads me about how I should be doing something about my mother, forcing her to be more helpful or forcing her to asking questions about the kids...

When it's clear it won't change, we can sever ourselves from it and use it as fuel to be better than we would otherwise be.


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## Blackswanwood (1 Jul 2021)

This thread certainly starts to show how complex human nature is. In general I think it's an unhealthy trait to "worry" about what others may think as it leads to unhappiness and toxic behaviour as described by @rafezetter . Equally though I think it's a positive thing to be mindful of how others perceive us as our actions and behaviours may otherwise have a negative impact on them.

Going back to the OP scenario 2 - @D_W - do the right thing and buy her a new plot for her birthday. What a great story to be able to dine out on


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## woodfarmer (5 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> My mother used to visit my sister in NZ every second year for three months. She debated buying a property there (30 years ago - affordable then) so she could have six months here, six there - no winters. The only reason she didn't was because she was afraid of dying there. I could never understand why it should make any difference.
> A friend, a multi millionaire , spends his life worrying about his children wasting his money when he dies - which they will.
> 
> My wife knows my wishes when I die - chuck my body on a fire and a couple of grand on the bar.


I only knew of you today and already I think we are alike  I have asked for my ashes to be put in the channel between Godrevy lighthouse and the shore, My dad is already there.


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## doctor Bob (5 Jul 2021)

I've decided to spend all my dough.
Treating myself to a KTM RC8R so I may not be around long


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2021)

woodfarmer said:


> I only knew of you today and already I think we are alike  I have asked for my ashes to be put in the channel between Godrevy lighthouse and the shore, My dad is already there.


 My daughter's ashes are thrown to wind from the top of Carn Brea, where mine will go. 
My grandmother came from Hakey Bay. To the lighthouse. I have been to the top of Godrevy lighthouse. We used to kayak out there (a strong westerly wind on the autumn equinox and St. Ives Bay is a brilliant place to be in a kayak only if you are young, very fit and incredibly foolish). Fascinating place - at the top there are huge curved frames like door frames holding glasses so they can be changed to alter the flash, including red glasses for danger signals. One tiny flame provides the light- every lighthouse in the world has a unique signal flash timed by the revolution and position of the lenses, enabling its recognition by mariners. The ground floor has emergency provisions and life rafts - or it did have, it might not now. The slates on the outhouse roofs are like the slates from a snooker table, they are huge and thick to stand the weather. You can walk among the nestling baby gulls and cormorants as they know no fear.


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## RobinBHM (5 Jul 2021)

rafezetter said:


> In later years he got himself on a board of a charity and ultimately became the chairperson, the same for a sailing club and again ultimately became "Commodore" (chair person



It sounds rather like your father has spent his life striving for status, like a sort of social climber.

I would hazard a guess it's driven by insecurity / low self esteem - which are characteristics of borderline personality disorder.

People with such traits are in my limited experience very difficult to deal with in relationships - family or friends. Usually they are highly driven in their pursuit of their perceived success. Dare I say it, but Trump is an example -narcissism is closely linked to BPD.

You have my sincere sympathy, it must be very hard to deal with. And as you know, such people never change.


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## Flynnwood (6 Jul 2021)

Interesting thread. I do think there is going to be a huge Pension issue for today's 20 to 30 year olds working in the UK private sector.


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## doctor Bob (6 Jul 2021)

Flynnwood said:


> I do think there is going to be a huge Pension issue for today's 20 to 30 year olds working in the UK private sector.



Agreed, persuaded my son start his pension at 19, he puts in about 8%. I didn't start properly till I was about 40 and now bundling it in to make up time.


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## JobandKnock (6 Jul 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A friend, a multi millionaire , spends his life worrying about his children wasting his money when he dies - which they will.


I served my time under a man who thought the same. He worked well.into his retirement years, always wanting one of his kids or granchildren to take over the business. They all wanted him to sell up and retire (then leave them a load of money). He retired, died within 6 months and the business was sold
All his savings and the proceeds of selling the business went into a trust fund which kept his wife in their house for quite a few years until she passed away. But the trust didn't pay a penny to any of the immediate family, who were all comfortably off and didn't really need anything more (his words, I recall) - instead a number of small payments were made to loyal ex-employees, as a token of appreciation, and the balance went to charity. I was at that meeting in a solicito's office and the family were speechless. 

Si ce then I have always thought that was a most appropriate way to deal with money when your time is up


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## Spectric (6 Jul 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> persuaded my son start his pension at 19, he puts in about 8%


Very good move, obviously has his head screwed on as many do not think about pensions until much later in life which you could get away with many years ago as there were good final salary company pensions around and a state pension at 65 but no more, I will be 67 for my state pension. Will today's 20 year olds even see a state pension, and at what age. 

If I were young again today with a skill set I think emigration would have serious consideration as things are not as bright and rosy as they once were.


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## D_W (6 Jul 2021)

Spectric said:


> Very good move, obviously has his head screwed on as many do not think about pensions until much later in life which you could get away with many years ago as there were good final salary company pensions around and a state pension at 65 but no more, I will be 67 for my state pension. Will today's 20 year olds even see a state pension, and at what age.
> 
> If I were young again today with a skill set I think emigration would have serious consideration as things are not as bright and rosy as they once were.



There will always be a state pension, but it may be later and less unless certain conditions are met (indigent, low income, etc) and marginalized by changing taxable status, etc. 

Every country has the same issue due to longevity. When state pensions were put in place, most were paying in and few receiving. As time went on, the balance was to change just based on passage of time, but increasing life expectancy and starting ages that didn't change with it changes things. 

Same goes for company pensions - obligations that change outside of the control of the corporation or plan participants - not so well liked when big non-funded obligations appear.


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## Orraloon (27 Jun 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> That's weird, that wasn't what I wrote....I never said "silly person" I said "i***t


I***t is a verboten word on the forum. I have also had it changed to silly person. Not sure if thats supposed to cause less offence but thats the rule. Strange world we live in when words can be banned regardless of context.
Regards
John


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## Sirenity (27 Jun 2022)

My analysis is that obsessively worry about their estate post mortem is a displacement/distraction activity from worrying about their mortality. 

For your friend, (first scenario) please suggest they set up a trust fund for small disbursements to students in their chosen field. 
As a youngster I lived in a poor area and someone had left their money in a trust to the parish council, to be distributed to local undergraduates on submission of a request for specific needs (books etc); administered by the council annually. 
£500 made a massive difference to me and I had a weird sense of this bloke I’d never known caring about me doing well in my studies. it definitely inspired me to keep going when dung was tough, I was the first in my family to go to uni and was very much a fish out of water and tempted to stop juggling jobs study and raising kids simultaneously! 
He could also encourage some into his field over another if he left a scholarship fund.


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## Droogs (27 Jun 2022)

Orraloon said:


> I***t is a verboten word on the forum. I have also had it changed to silly person. Not sure if thats supposed to cause less offence but thats the rule. Strange world we live in when words can be banned regardless of context.
> Regards
> John


My spell checker changes it to cockwomble, seems to work


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## Geoff_S (27 Jun 2022)

There was a TV program on the other day with subtitles, I forget what it was. Anyway there was prolific use of the “F” word verbally. The fascinating thing was, you clearly heard the “F” word spoken every time but the subtitle presented it as “f**k”. A strange world we live in!


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## Ozi (27 Jun 2022)

As possibly the worst student to ever graduate from the engineering course I was on, certainly had the maximum number of resits possible I always said if I "made it" I would leave money to the university on the condition that the Engineering student passing by the lowest margin receive a barrel of beer at the start of the summer holidays - aint gona happen


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Agreed, persuaded my son start his pension at 19, he puts in about 8%. I didn't start properly till I was about 40 and now bundling it in to make up time.


I did the same but the way the world is maybe they will end up hating us all the same.
Ive found helping getting them a job becomes forcing them into something they didnt want to do, in their mind anyway if it all goes **** up.


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## Spectric (12 Jul 2022)

The way things are you have to start thinking about later life a lot earlier these days and it is not just financial. If I was young the first thing I would look at is not buying a house or paying into a pension but asking myself the question " am I living in the best country that will give me a good career and lifestyle " and for me that would be a definate no in todays britain, I could do better elsewhere. If you do decide the UK is the right place then decisions are more difficult because some of the data is unknown, but you can say that you will probably not see a state pension until 75 but will have more than likely paid more NI contributions than you will ever see returned as pension, but a big thanks because you will be supporting us baby boomers. So do you really want to work to 75, if not then you need to start a private pension and throw a lot of money into it before thinking of a mortgage because getting a pot of pension money early gives it plenty of time to grow. Property is a massive expense and again don't just think of buying where you have always lived, accept that living too far south or near london is going to cost a lot more, yes you may earn more but the figure that is most important is not how much you earn but what you have left after paying everything. As to a job that is not going to be easy, but if you want a deposit for a pile of bricks then you may have to take a shiette job and work long hours but for plenty of cash, some delivery drivers up here earn a huge amount working long hours and seven days a week but may only do it for two or three years to get that deposit, doing a regular 9 to 5 it would take much more time. 

Yes it is a minefield and with a lot of decisions to make, much harder for the youngsters of today because we no longer have all the large companies and places of employment with good opportunities and evidenced by the number of youngsters having to work in hospitality.


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> The way things are you have to start thinking about later life a lot earlier these days and it is not just financial. If I was young the first thing I would look at is not buying a house or paying into a pension but asking myself the question " am I living in the best country that will give me a good career and lifestyle " and for me that would be a definate no in todays britain, I could do better elsewhere. If you do decide the UK is the right place then decisions are more difficult because some of the data is unknown, but you can say that you will probably not see a state pension until 75 but will have more than likely paid more NI contributions than you will ever see returned as pension, but a big thanks because you will be supporting us baby boomers. So do you really want to work to 75, if not then you need to start a private pension and throw a lot of money into it before thinking of a mortgage because getting a pot of pension money early gives it plenty of time to grow. Property is a massive expense and again don't just think of buying where you have always lived, accept that living too far south or near london is going to cost a lot more, yes you may earn more but the figure that is most important is not how much you earn but what you have left after paying everything. As to a job that is not going to be easy, but if you want a deposit for a pile of bricks then you may have to take a shiette job and work long hours but for plenty of cash, some delivery drivers up here earn a huge amount working long hours and seven days a week but may only do it for two or three years to get that deposit, doing a regular 9 to 5 it would take much more time.
> 
> Yes it is a minefield and with a lot of decisions to make, much harder for the youngsters of today because we no longer have all the large companies and places of employment with good opportunities and evidenced by the number of youngsters having to work in hospitality.


The best country today is the worst country tomorrow.
Thats why we live in the uk as we know there is continuity.
At least you know its going to be bad and you can plan for it both now and in the future.


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

As Ive got old I realise that what you see happen, do or say, or discuss at anyone time is never the same as anyone elses recollections.
As people within family argue, it become more important to prove your point.
This results in telling the same story over and over again. However it becomes modified to their personal view bordering on lies to win support.
Eventually they believe the lies as the truth and so does everyone else they tell the story to.
And then you stand alone knowing what your version of the story is the truth.....or is it.?

I also belive today peer pressure from outside the home has a huge influence on your kids. 
Not just other people but institutions as well.


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## Spectric (12 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> I also belive today peer pressure from outside the home has a huge influence on your kids.


Social media and marketing telling them what they should do, think and look like, almost like making them into a collective. It is not good if you want diverse and free thinking people for the future.



Amateur said:


> As Ive got old I realise that what you see happen, do or say, or discuss at anyone time is never the same as anyone elses recollections.


It's called memory loss, nothing different to bit rot in semiconductor memory chips except you cannot be re-programed back to original.


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## Terry - Somerset (12 Jul 2022)

I am picking 1960 as a datum as it may broadly represent the age of many on this forum to illustrate a point. The materially younger may consider their future holds should current trends continue. 

In 1960 an average male at 65 could expect to live another 12 years. By 2020 this had grown to 19 years. Pension costs (whether state or personal) would increase by 60%.

In 1960 education typically continued to ~16. Few went to university, some did A levels. Typical age in education is now ~20. The working life during which savings for a pension could be accumulated have reduced from 49 (65-16) to 45 (65-20) - about 10%.

To provide a pension for those now retiring has increased in cost by ~70%. No wonder the state pension age is increasing, and will continue to do so while longevity increases.

We should all be grateful this is the case. Healthcare has improved and allowed us to enjoy many more years of quality life (on average, not all are so fortunate, some more so). 

A fixed state pension age makes sense to avoid means and health testing, set at an age where most are still capable of gainful employment. Society as a whole, and the young in particular, should not be expected to fund the lifestyle of the entirely able retired.


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## Spectric (12 Jul 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> We should all be grateful this is the case. Healthcare has improved and allowed us to enjoy many more years of quality life (on average, not all are so fortunate, some more so).


It is wonderful that health care has improved but that is only a benefit if it is applied, otherwise it is like having a heart attack whilst holding a defibrillator that you are unable to use. Round here the GP's are in crisis with some closing their doors for good and hospitals very under staffed but they did spend a lot of money modernising one of the hospitals so the staff had even more room to rattle around in because they just cannot recruit. On a positive note I do believe our ambulance service is doing ok unlike many others so the best option is to plan to retire early and at least get some reward for your working life.


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> It's called memory loss, nothing different to bit rot in semiconductor memory chips except you cannot be re-programed back to original.


Unless your recollection is the truth?


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## TRITON (12 Jul 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> and convinced there is nothing of an afterlife either.


This is how they keep the numbers down and the riff raff out.
Who wants to be in an afterlife that looks like Butlins spring break ??

Only the believers get to go.


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

Some good suggestions but,
While the population of the world increases and more people move to Europe a lot of those suggestions are not sustainable. 
Governments work on the basis that revenues increase with rises in population without planning how these people will survive as they age.
Who will pay pensions and health care in the future is a major concern along with food production fuel and energy.
Boomers may block hospital beds today because rest homes and convalescent homes are full but it will be worse for the next generation.
That is a major worry and should be for everyone.


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> This is how they keep the numbers down and the riff raff out.
> Who wants to be in an afterlife that looks like Butlins spring break ??
> 
> Only the believers get to go.


Im saying my prayers at night.
Just in case you understand?


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## D_W (12 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> It is wonderful that health care has improved but that is only a benefit if it is applied, otherwise it is like having a heart attack whilst holding a defibrillator that you are unable to use. Round here the GP's are in crisis with some closing their doors for good and hospitals very under staffed but they did spend a lot of money modernising one of the hospitals so the staff had even more room to rattle around in because they just cannot recruit. On a positive note I do believe our ambulance service is doing ok unlike many others so the best option is to plan to retire early and at least get some reward for your working life.



well, you could be in the same boat as us - I can walk in to a huge number of clinics here, or go to my regular GP and get in same day. But we pay several multiples for it and get a lot of treatment that's probably not needed just because it's insured and everyone wants treatment no matter what instead of a wait and see approach. 

cost of care is 20% of GDP here vs. I see a figure of 12.8%. GDP per capita is much higher here, so the real cost nominally is probably more than twice as much. 

I'd take waiting now and then for half price.


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

Reality check.
The body breaks down as you age, no matter how healthy you think you are.
In the end despite technology it cant prevent that, nor can it prevent genetic throw backs in your DNA.


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## TRITON (12 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Reality check.
> The body breaks down as you age, no matter how healthy you think you are.
> In the end despite technology it cant prevent that, nor can it prevent genetic throw backs in your DNA.


Then explain William Shatner.


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## Spectric (12 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> well, you could be in the same boat as us - I can walk in to a huge number of clinics here, or go to my regular GP and get in same day. But we pay several multiples for it and get a lot of treatment that's probably not needed just because it's insured and everyone wants treatment no matter what instead of a wait and see approach.


Opposites ends of the spectrum, you pay directly but get too much treatment and we pay indirectly and get treatment eventually, I suppose the one benefit of your system is that people don't just turn up with a cough, a splinter or the sick kid who is running round the waiting room causing mayhem, it makes them think rather than just turn up and overload the system. The one advantage of your system is that you must get more choice and unlike our NHS they are not guaranteed customers.


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## D_W (12 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> Opposites ends of the spectrum, you pay directly but get too much treatment and we pay indirectly and get treatment eventually, I suppose the one benefit of your system is that people don't just turn up with a cough, a splinter or the sick kid who is running round the waiting room causing mayhem, it makes them think rather than just turn up and overload the system. The one advantage of your system is that you must get more choice and unlike our NHS they are not guaranteed customers.



Exactly right - too much treatment. that's the system's incentive here. We still do have waiting rooms here with non-payers, but the insured folks have now gotten a pretty robust setup of walk in places.

Uninsured folks with no money aren't too worried about the cost of an ER admission. The hospitals, at least here, can't make them pay at the point of service in the ER whereas non-ER walk-ins can refuse service for non-payers.

For me, copay for using the ER as point of service is $300. To use a walk-in care center is $25. if you have a true emergency, then the point of service copay at ER is $0. I have been to the ER exactly once in 20 years - metal in the eye, large hospital here. it was late at night and filled with weirdos in the city, but the hospital had two dedicated rooms for eye emergencies and I was back out in an hour. that was before the rise of walk-in centers, and the copay back then was only $50. 

With the structure change now, if you have a simple break, the walk-in centers will X-ray and set it. If it's more complicated, they'll send you to the ER, and you'll be admitted for treatment rather than just seen quickly for outpatient (admission is the trigger that makes the cost go to $0).

The same overall outcomes could be had here for half the cost, but not the convenience. So I think we're paying double for convenience. I've gone to asking my dr. when they suggest something if the same outcome is had by waiting longer to see if anything is needed in the first place, and that to me is convenience. Not running all over the place fixing a problem that really isn't treated better by over-utilizing.

Something probably needs to change there. Something definitely needs to change here - both in different directions.

Once you're on Medicare here (65), life is pretty easy as far as cost goes, though. A couple of hundred bucks a month for coverage cost (instead of more than a thousand for an uninsured at 64 to go to the market and buy coverage) and you have no exposure to any catastrophic anything. Once in a while, people get stupid here and refuse to pay the medicare copay or enroll in anything that uses medicare, and the result is ruinous. It's rare here, though, and done only by the odd person who is exceptionally stupid. 

The trouble with the idea that Medicare extended downward would cover everyone is that the health system is covered by the insured payers and Medicare can dictate paying less than the cost of actual care to health systems - who make up the difference with insured and cash payers.


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## imageel (12 Jul 2022)

An interesting thread.... I by and large have gone through life without a care in the world medical-wise albeit along the way I have had numerous visits to our local A&E with self inflicted wounds down to the bone on both ring fingers which whilst not particularly painful bled a lot and then another excruciating one where I snapped the tendon attaching my bicep to my forearm....
...But then back in 2018 I had a fall - was on multiple BP lowering meds at the time and those were deemed likely root cause, I managed to pass out and fall down a flight of stairs and landed face down on a concrete floor. Lets just say there was lots of collateral damage and it took me 2y to get fully back to my normal woodworking/DIY activities - by day I worked in IT within financial services so not an issue there.
Since then I have become cognizant that at some point I'll either have to stop either through infirmity - arthritis is starting to affect some joints, or I'll go out like a light with some cardiac or body plumbing mishap.
The fact is that as you pass 50y the likelihood of serious diseases increases by some 50% so it really is all downhill internally however young and fit you may look or feel, the fact is we wear out, errors creep into our cellular replication, joints wear, blood vessels become less flexible and so-on.
Also as a life-long smoker and enjoyer of Rioja the medical profession see me as a higher than most risk, but at the end of the day we have to live, enjoy life and do the activities we like and get pleasure from and lets face it everything is a risk.
Tomorrow I am once again visiting our local hospital for about the 10th time this year - mainly because a friend I've known from teenage years has stage 4 cancer and even developed 2 new mets on his brain whilst undergoing immunotherapy - so I suspect tomorrows meeting will be a 'we propose withdrawing any treatment and fall back to palliative care only' - my mate is 69 so not brill but was diagnosed in mid Jan as being terminal I guess lucky to have survived this far! 
I can't speak for my mate, however I don't really care that much about what others will think when I'm gone, most who know me well will know that I got a lot out of life doing woodworking, metal bashing, electronics, outdoor cooking and relaxing in the garden with a fag and a glass of something red.
I mean I believe when your gone your gone so not really much to worry about.....
I do wonder in the meantime what my daughter is going to do with my workshop and tools, grateful for any ideas as to how one might dispose of these!!


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## Amateur (12 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> Then explain William Shatner.


Not sure what you mean?


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## Blackswanwood (12 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Not sure what you mean?











William Shatner Reveals Secret As To Why He Looks So Young At 90


Maintaining that he's never had any work done, Shatner put his youthful looks down to 'genetics', saying: "I don’t have any secret potions."




www.ladbible.com


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## thetyreman (12 Jul 2022)

I think people need to stop thinking about life as this kind of abstract linear experience where everything goes according to plan.


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## Droogs (12 Jul 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I think people need to stop thinking about life as this kind of abstract linear experience where everything goes according to plan.


It does go to plan, just not your plan


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## D_W (12 Jul 2022)

imageel said:


> I do wonder in the meantime what my daughter is going to do with my workshop and tools, grateful for any ideas as to how one might dispose of these!!



Sell them sooner than you think you need to unless you're using them. If you're using them to the last day, find someone who is willing to help your daughter unload them and don't get too concerned about whether she gets every penny. 

i've run into two people in the last couple of months who have a whole pile of wood and tools and sudden health turns give them a short lifetime and no energy to sell either. Even in my mid 40s, i'm realizing that I shouldn't be holding on to stuff I'm not using and I've unloaded a whole bunch in the last year but twice as far again beyond that to go.


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## mikej460 (12 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Boomers may block hospital beds today because rest homes and convalescent homes are full but it will be worse for the next generation.


Actually there are many complex reasons for bed blocking and it is seldom a lack of space in homes. I had a detailed analysis undertaken at one health authority which concluded that the reasons were often to do with who pays, the NHS or the Council. This was closely followed by poor post-discharge care planning, inadequate pharmacy support at weekends, no patient transport at weekends and believe it or not families that refuse to accept the, often elderly, relative back home.


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## Jameshow (12 Jul 2022)

I think my family and friends will be concerned that I'm late to my funeral....


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## Bingy man (13 Jul 2022)

Earn it -spend it / give it to your kids . Time and time again I’ve seen so called family members squabbling over what they think they are entitled to or what they decide is rightfully there’s. taking items back because they gave it as a gift years ago. When my good friend and neighbor passed away during the 1st wave of covid his niece asked me ( they were clearing/ pillaging his flat ) what I wanted as they were selling everything on f-b-m -p to which I replied yes - I’d like my friend back and I left them to it . So I’m happy to earn money but enjoy spending it with no regrets .


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## D_W (13 Jul 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I think people need to stop thinking about life as this kind of abstract linear experience where everything goes according to plan.



This and the whole safety above all notion now is kind of a modern thing that never really existed in the first place. 

it creates a huge sense of entitlement to have a good tomorrow and not appreciate it even when it comes. 

Sucky.


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## TRITON (13 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> i've run into two people in the last couple of months who have a whole pile of wood and tools and sudden health turns give them a short lifetime and no energy to sell either. Even in my mid 40s, i'm realizing that I shouldn't be holding on to stuff I'm not using and I've unloaded a whole bunch in the last year but twice as far again beyond that to go.


I know that feeling. But i may have solved thew problem inadvertently.

I've emptied the workshop into a spare room(3 bed flat, 2 rooms given over to 'hobbies') because i needed to remove the rooms wallpaper and replace it with clean lining paper painted a nice bright white 
Because i'd done that its allowed me to take stock of what i have as i slowly put it back together. Its a bit like rebuilding an engine and having parts left over. I've obviously got way more than i need and while it was altogether in the original shop configuration, it clearly is too much now.
So when i put back the basic power tools, the machinery and handtools, i can either donate or bin whatever is left, working on the premise that i've had these other bits for so long and never used them, that i in fact dont need them at all, and its just become a bad habit collecting stuff that i thought at the time was useful, but it wasnt really, so best be shot of it.

Of course what will happen in reality is I'll suddenly find a need for something i've gotten rid of


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## Suffolk Brian (13 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> The way things are you have to start thinking about later life a lot earlier these days and it is not just financial. If I was young the first thing I would look at is not buying a house or paying into a pension but asking myself the question " am I living in the best country that will give me a good career and lifestyle " and for me that would be a definate no in todays britain, I could do better elsewhere. If you do decide the UK is the right place then decisions are more difficult because some of the data is unknown, but you can say that you will probably not see a state pension until 75 but will have more than likely paid more NI contributions than you will ever see returned as pension, but a big thanks because you will be supporting us baby boomers. So do you really want to work to 75, if not then you need to start a private pension and throw a lot of money into it before thinking of a mortgage because getting a pot of pension money early gives it plenty of time to grow. Property is a massive expense and again don't just think of buying where you have always lived, accept that living too far south or near london is going to cost a lot more, yes you may earn more but the figure that is most important is not how much you earn but what you have left after paying everything. As to a job that is not going to be easy, but if you want a deposit for a pile of bricks then you may have to take a shiette job and work long hours but for plenty of cash, some delivery drivers up here earn a huge amount working long hours and seven days a week but may only do it for two or three years to get that deposit, doing a regular 9 to 5 it would take much more time.
> 
> Yes it is a minefield and with a lot of decisions to make, much harder for the youngsters of today because we no longer have all the large companies and places of employment with good opportunities and evidenced by the number of youngsters having to work in hospitality.


You make fair points, but there is always a BUT. Paid more in N. I. Contributions than you will ever see as pension? Yes, but your N. I, contributions cover “health insurance“ as well. My firm had BUPA cover at one time. The payments for that made your eyes water. You also need somewhere to live; ultimately your choice is do you pay your own mortgage, or pay someone else’s?


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## cerro (13 Jul 2022)

I consider myself the richest man in the world, At 88 years old I am as fit as a fiddle good eye site can still run, mind I have trained since I was 13 in one way or another and having a slow heart beat helps I never get out of breath. Have lived live to the full 7 years in the marines helped, climbed mountains all over the world built a boat and sailed all over alone. Canoed from Whitehorse to Dawson city for my 60th birthday, then walked over the brooks mountains alone for five weeks, I could go on, All true when I go to Valhalla they can do what they want with me. Please don’t think I am bragging


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2022)

cerro said:


> I consider myself the richest man in the world, At 88 years old I am as fit as a fiddle good eye site can still run,


That is very true, money cannot buy everything and having good health is something you cannot just buy, given a choice good health has to be better than being super rich and is why your spending in retirement years should be non linear, spend more whilst you can enjoy because health is not guaranteed.


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## Jonm (13 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> selling everything on f-b-m -p


?
edit, presumably Facebook market place. -p, no idea.


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## Kittyhawk (13 Jul 2022)

cerro said:


> I consider myself the richest man in the world, At 88 years old I am as fit as a fiddle good eye site can still run, mind I have trained since I was 13 in one way or another and having a slow heart beat helps I never get out of breath. Have lived live to the full 7 years in the marines helped, climbed mountains all over the world built a boat and sailed all over alone. Canoed from Whitehorse to Dawson city for my 60th birthday, then walked over the brooks mountains alone for five weeks, I could go on, All true when I go to Valhalla they can do what they want with me. Please don’t think I am bragging


Sounds like you ought to be my older brother
I'm 77, slow heart rate, don't run but cycle everywhere, don't climb mountains but 'go bush' for extended periods, did a lot of single-handed ocean sailing in the 60's - 70's, kayaked a lot of the NZ coastline, lakes etc.
The only thing I disagree on, you're not the richest man in the world - I am.


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## Glitch (13 Jul 2022)

We're all here to procreate and pass on our genes. That's all.

So put the tools down, stop climbing mountains and get on with the job you're meant to be doing.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> It does go to plan, just not your plan


Mine didn't go to my plan. Or anyone else's plan, come to that.


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## Thingybob (13 Jul 2022)

Jonm said:


> ?
> edit, presumably Facebook market place. -p, no idea.


For the best money possible


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Yes it’s very strange, I think that once you’re gone you’re gone, and convinced there is nothing of an afterlife either.


It all comes down to whether nature has a purpose or an objective, or is it just a pointless merry go round of continous birth offset by death. 

The question to ask is why is there a form of inteligent life on our planet and nothing on other planets within light years away, it does seem odd why we are just an isolated group of living beings in this part of the universe. Given we do not know just how big the universe is then you have to accept that there has to be other life out there and maybe other isolated groups but again why, surely everything has a purpose and we cannot just be an accident. Then given the complexity of a human life form are we really saying that just given enough time evolution can produce us from maybe a single celled amoeba! There are really to many coincidences and there has to be something else involved that can glue all the pieces together and make sense and reason to life itself, maybe we began somewhere many light years away on some other planet but got exiled to this corner of the universe like a prison colony of the unwanted, maybe we were the rejects or some experiment that is still being watched to see how things evolve.


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## DRC (13 Jul 2022)

It seems to me the USA members have an awful lot to say in a UK workshop.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2022)

and?


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## Terry - Somerset (13 Jul 2022)

Alternative beliefs to accommodate the infinite mysteries of life and existence:

it is so complex that there must be a grand design (not Kevin McCloud) - an omnipotent who on the 7th day rested having built all including animals and homo sapiens on the 6th.
we don't know all the answers. We know more than last year, and expect that knowledge to expand. If the mysteries of life are really infinite, humanity will never know everything. 
Personally I go firmly with the rational - some of that ascribed to the almighty in years past now has an explanation. The belief in a greater power is continually being proven incorrect.


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## SamG340 (13 Jul 2022)

I don't care where they bury me when I'm gone. Like my granddad said, stick me in a black bag and throw me out for the bin men


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## DRC (13 Jul 2022)

In answer to "and?" because I can and I reside in the UK, ok?


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## D_W (13 Jul 2022)

Well, I guess we got to experience part of what the health care system costs so much for yesterday. 

My son had swollen lymph nodes the last two days, but no symptoms other than that. We figured he was fighting off the flu or something, and two days ago, he threw up, then felt fine. Still had a fever yesterday afternoon, and we called the pediatrician on short notice and they said they had no openings, but the walk in clinic (pediatric only) would after 5. Figured there was nothing really wrong with him but the flu or something else simple. 

You could just go to a GP walk in clinic here, but we can doctor shop, I guess - I'd rather see a pediatrician for a kid as they're just more in practice to examine and know what's going around with the kid population. 

I guess it was around 3PM that the mrs. called. The pediatric clinic opened at 5, the mrs "got in line" with an app before driving there and the boy was back home by 6pm with a diagnosis of lyme disease (yikes!) but acute and should be wiped out by a course of antibiotics. 

Not sure if lyme is a thing over here, but it's a serious problem here if it's not treated early.


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## D_W (13 Jul 2022)

SamG340 said:


> I don't care where they bury me when I'm gone. Like my granddad said, stick me in a black bag and throw me out for the bin men



Fantastic. Protestant tradition here is to waste a lot of money on being buried. I told the mrs. not to waste the money - burn me up, throw away the ashes if you want and give the difference toward something for the kids (or grandkids by then if that's the case). 

MIL is vain but thinks she isn't. Her husband bought plots at a church in the network with his church or something (probably a better price than his church) and then the hillside was cleared between her church and a large highway - like 3/4ths of a mile away. She's terrified how terrible the view is now....as if she'll see it.

I like the men's bin idea.


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## MikeK (13 Jul 2022)

DRC said:


> In answer to "and?" because I can and I reside in the UK, ok?



Cool your jets. The membership of the UKW has been international long before you joined.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2022)

DRC said:


> In answer to "and?" because I can and I reside in the UK, ok?


I thought you were being critical.


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2022)

DRC said:


> It seems to me the USA members have an awful lot to say in a UK workshop.


Firstly if it was a UK workshop then why do we all happily accept anyone from anywhere with anything to say? It is because a persons ability, knowledge or experience is not bounded by location so location is irrelevant. I for one have learnt an awful lot from American woodworking books and videos, so I value any input they give round here.


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## SamG340 (13 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> Not sure if lyme is a thing over here, but it's a serious problem here if it's not treated early.



Praying for him


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## Jameshow (13 Jul 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Alternative beliefs to accommodate the infinite mysteries of life and existence:
> 
> it is so complex that there must be a grand design (not Kevin McCloud) - an omnipotent who on the 7th day rested having built all including animals and homo sapiens on the 6th.
> we don't know all the answers. We know more than last year, and expect that knowledge to expand. If the mysteries of life are really infinite, humanity will never know everything.
> Personally I go firmly with the rational - some of that ascribed to the almighty in years past now has an explanation. The belief in a greater power is continually being proven incorrect.



When evolutionary neuroscientists come up with mouse monkey and lizard areas of brain, I'll pass thanks. 

Btw the scientists who came up with the covid vaccine over a week are the real scientists!!


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## Amateur (13 Jul 2022)

mikej460 said:


> Actually there are many complex reasons for bed blocking and it is seldom a lack of space in homes. I had a detailed analysis undertaken at one health authority which concluded that the reasons were often to do with who pays, the NHS or the Council. This was closely followed by poor post-discharge care planning, inadequate pharmacy support at weekends, no patient transport at weekends and believe it or not families that refuse to accept the, often elderly, relative back home.



Social workers are responsible for placing people.
Every patient that doesn't have someone to look after them on discharge at home have to do an assessment of the patient.
This will determine what care they need and which facility is best for them.
Money doesn't come into it hospitals just want the bed.
In the North of England even private homes are full and during covid many more closed down.


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## Glitch (13 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Social workers are responsible for placing people.
> Every patient that doesn't have someone to look after them on discharge at home have to do an assessment of the patient.
> This will determine what care they need and which facility is best for them.
> Money doesn't come into it hospitals just want the bed.
> In the North of England even private homes are full and during covid many more closed down.



Don't let your loved one leave hospital until a suitable care package is in place and funded appropriately.

Hospital wants you out ASAP which is understandable but don't accept a rubbish care home or take them back home without the house being suitable and carers and equipment sorted.

This is why bed blocking happens and in most cases it is justified.

In some cases though the family do a disappearing act to avoid any responsibility themselves and except the council to pick it up.

It's a shambles.


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## Amateur (13 Jul 2022)

Glitch said:


> Don't let your loved one leave hospital until a suitable care package is in place and funded appropriately.
> 
> Hospital wants you out ASAP which is understandable but don't accept a rubbish care home or take them back home without the house being suitable and carers and equipment sorted.
> 
> ...


Thats fine but if you dont have savings or own a house you have to go where they place you. Private care homes cost more and they will not pay more than the allocated budget to top up.

It is a mess I agree.


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## Glitch (13 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> Well, I guess we got to experience part of what the health care system costs so much for yesterday.
> 
> My son had swollen lymph nodes the last two days, but no symptoms other than that. We figured he was fighting off the flu or something, and two days ago, he threw up, then felt fine. Still had a fever yesterday afternoon, and we called the pediatrician on short notice and they said they had no openings, but the walk in clinic (pediatric only) would after 5. Figured there was nothing really wrong with him but the flu or something else simple.
> 
> ...


Lymes disease is a thing in the U.K..
Not too common but on the rise I think.
Initial symptom is a bullseye  looking bite. After that it gets confused with flu.

There have been many cases where it has gone undiagnosed for many months.
There is a specific test for it and AIUI it's easy to treat.

A big problem with the health service in the U.K. is the time it takes to get a proper diagnosis for your illness.

My wife was fobbed off with painkillers and other pills by GP when she had a really bad back. Sad to say that we eventually went private. Got a scan and proper diagnosis within days rather than months.
Don't know if the lasting damage could have been avoided.

I would have more radiographers to maximise the use of CT and MRI scanners and also buy more scanners and train more staff.


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## kinverkid (13 Jul 2022)

I hope nobody minds and I apologise for the long read, but this might be the post to share what has very recently happened to me and a reminder that not everything goes the way we plan it. At the beginning of the year, I started contributing to D_W’s post ‘Anyone Want to do a Weight Loss Challenge’ I had put on quite a bit of weight during 2021 and stopped running in the September of the same year. I stopped drinking beer which was my main source of empty calories and started running. By mid-May I ran a 10K race which was my best time for four years. One week later we were camping in Lincolnshire where I did another couple of 10K leisure runs. The day after my last run while visiting Boston I suddenly, completely lost my appetite. This was to last all week until the following weekend when we were camping in Cheshire that I knew I needed to see a GP. I made an appointment on a call-back system and got a reply within thirty minutes asking me to go to the surgery the next day. We de-camped, got home and the following day (Tuesday) I saw the GP. By this time, I was jaundiced, my whole body itched and my poo and wee had changed significantly. She sent me to the hospital where someone would be waiting for me. I didn’t make it back out of that hospital until the following Tuesday.

The original thought was that I had a blockage in my gall bladder which could be caused by several things. They then concluded that I had a tumour on my pancreas, and I needed specialist help. My CT and MRI scans were sent to the Queen Elizabeth hospital, Birmingham. They contacted me the following Wednesday asking my wife and I to come to a meeting Friday to meet the specialist nurse who would introduce us to a surgeon, oncologist and anaesthetist as well as to have several tests and samples taken. They explained exactly what was going to happen if I agree to come in Sunday evening and have a D.D.D.P. operation on Monday. This is a variation of a Whipple operation to remove the cancerous head area of the pancreas. This is called Fast Tracking and is offered to those that meet an age, health and fitness level.

It is a six-hour operation and very obtrusive. Organs must be cut through to get to the pancreas then re-attached afterwards. But the surprising thing to me was that two days later, I’m out of my bed, the following day I’m walking short distances around the ward. By the following Monday I was home.

So, it’s four weeks and two days later. I get short of breath and can only eat small meals at one sitting. I can now walk up to 3km but do need two or three naps throughout the day. It will be eight weeks before I start the full-dose chemotherapy sessions then hopefully I will be cancer free. The surgeon has told me that if I don’t do anything silly, I should be running by January.

This is not a wake-up call for me. I had that when my father died when I was 25. He retired on his 65th birthday in the October then suddenly died the following January. From then on, I changed my lifestyle and made sure my wife and I got to retire early. I retired at 55 my wife at 59. Most of my working life has involved the investigations of sudden and suspicious deaths. This has made me aware something as simple as getting out of this chair, I could trip over the doorway threshold to the garden and land head-butting the patio killing me. Hopefully, instantly. Or the doorbell goes, and I could be met by a nutter with an axe. Probably a blunt one if he’s not read any a Jacob’s posts.

So, when this is all over. If my health does return to what it was. There will be little if any change to our lives. We will still travel, camp, hike, meet up with many friends we’ve made over the years just like we always have. I will still run the hills and countryside plus the cities that we travel to. We did put-by to have two small pensions which we still spend like there is tomorrow. When I do pop my clogs, my wife will probably be surprised that she is getting a better price for my tools second hand than I said I paid for them new.

As for the weight loss challenge. I’ve lost 17kg but I would not advise anyone should take my route. Stick to diet and exercise.

Gary


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## Glitch (13 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Thats fine but if you dont have savings or own a house you have to go where they place you. Private care homes cost more and they will not pay more than the allocated budget to top up.
> 
> It is a mess I agree.


Always check the CQC reports. Standards vary. My Mum tried my Dad in a couple of care homes before she finally did the right thing and brought him home.

The quality of the firms providing carers varies enormously. We had to fight to get decent carers. One company employed fabulous Romanian women, another great one had a team of amazing English girls. They came to my Dad's funeral and kept in touch with my Mum for many months after.
Another company had the most disgusting cretins who clearly only did the job for the money and shouldn't be allowed near I'll people.

It pays to kick up a fuss and form a good relationship with the case worker who puts the care package together.


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## Glitch (13 Jul 2022)

kinverkid said:


> I hope nobody minds and I apologise for the long read, but this might be the post to share what has very recently happened to me and a reminder that not everything goes the way we plan it. At the beginning of the year, I started contributing to D_W’s post ‘Anyone Want to do a Weight Loss Challenge’ I had put on quite a bit of weight during 2021 and stopped running in the September of the same year. I stopped drinking beer which was my main source of empty calories and started running. By mid-May I ran a 10K race which was my best time for four years. One week later we were camping in Lincolnshire where I did another couple of 10K leisure runs. The day after my last run while visiting Boston I suddenly, completely lost my appetite. This was to last all week until the following weekend when we were camping in Cheshire that I knew I needed to see a GP. I made an appointment on a call-back system and got a reply within thirty minutes asking me to go to the surgery the next day. We de-camped, got home and the following day (Tuesday) I saw the GP. By this time, I was jaundiced, my whole body itched and my poo and wee had changed significantly. She sent me to the hospital where someone would be waiting for me. I didn’t make it back out of that hospital until the following Tuesday.
> 
> The original thought was that I had a blockage in my gall bladder which could be caused by several things. They then concluded that I had a tumour on my pancreas, and I needed specialist help. My CT and MRI scans were sent to the Queen Elizabeth hospital, Birmingham. They contacted me the following Wednesday asking my wife and I to come to a meeting Friday to meet the specialist nurse who would introduce us to a surgeon, oncologist and anaesthetist as well as to have several tests and samples taken. They explained exactly what was going to happen if I agree to come in Sunday evening and have a D.D.D.P. operation on Monday. This is a variation of a Whipple operation to remove the cancerous head area of the pancreas. This is called Fast Tracking and is offered to those that meet an age, health and fitness level.
> 
> ...



You never know what's around the corner and you clearly knew that from your job. 

Sounds like you were already living life to the full and good on you. This life is not a practice run. You only get one.

Best of luck with your treatment Gary and wishing you a long and even more fulfilled life!


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## mikej460 (13 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Social workers are responsible for placing people.
> Every patient that doesn't have someone to look after them on discharge at home have to do an assessment of the patient.
> This will determine what care they need and which facility is best for them.
> Money doesn't come into it hospitals just want the bed.
> In the North of England even private homes are full and during covid many more closed down.


No the social worker bit is not correct, multidisciplinary teams consisting of health, social care and community workers agree a pre-discharge care plan and agree it with the patient and/or their relatives. I know this not only from my past work but having just gone through it for my mum. She is now in a great, but very expensive, BUPA care home in Cheshire. She receives mostly social care for her advanced dementia plus an amount of nursing care. She was hospitalised with a broken hip after a fall and is 92. The MDT followup Teams meeting was held with myself and my siblings. Everything was carefully explained and a three homes were offered. I do agree that if my mum didn't own her own home the choice may well have been made for us. If she outlives her house equity I believe she will be moved to a cheaper care home as the council will be paying for it.


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## Amateur (13 Jul 2022)

mikej460 said:


> No the social worker bit is not correct, multidisciplinary teams consisting of health, social care and community workers agree a pre-discharge care plan and agree it with the patient and/or their relatives. I know this not only from my past work but having just gone through it for my mum. She is now in a great, but very expensive, BUPA care home in Cheshire. She receives mostly social care for her advanced dementia plus an amount of nursing care. She was hospitalised with a broken hip after a fall and is 92. The MDT followup Teams meeting was held with myself and my siblings. Everything was carefully explained and a three homes were offered. I do agree that if my mum didn't own her own home the choice may well have been made for us. If she outlives her house equity I believe she will be moved to a cheaper care home as the council will be paying for it.


Yes. If they have money to pay.
If they don't the social worker has to find that support money to help funding and a care home that will accept the amounts offered bearing in mind pensions etc are included in the calculations.
This is one of the time consuming reasons for bed blocking.
If the person is to be sent home a home assesment us needed and a team put in place if there is no one to help at home again bed blocking untill all this is agreed.

In Scotland its different than England from what I can see.

Its a mess if you dont have the resources to be able to pay.


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Its a mess if you dont have the resources to be able to pay.


but is it not the case that in the Uk if you have nothing then you can claim everything, but if you have a little something then you get nowt. What about this, if you get your council tax paid then you can still claim the £150 government rebate, why ?


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## mikej460 (13 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Yes. If they have money to pay.
> If they don't the social worker has to find that support money to help funding and a care home that will accept the amounts offered bearing in mind pensions etc are included in the calculations.
> This is one of the time consuming reasons for bed blocking.
> If the person is to be sent home a home assesment us needed and a team put in place if there is no one to help at home again bed blocking untill all this is agreed.
> ...


The way MDT is supposed to work (and clearly doesn't in my recent experience) is that the discharge assessment starts on the first day of hospitalisation. It should then be periodically reassessed as treatment progresses and finalised on the lead up to discharge. This model sounds perfect in principle, however lots of barriers get in the way e.g. staff shortages, winter pressures, the latest change initiatives from NHS England or local mandates and now covid.


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## Amateur (13 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> but is it not the case that in the Uk if you have nothing then you can claim everything, but if you have a little something then you get nowt. What about this, if you get your council tax paid then you can still claim the £150 government rebate, why ?



In our town we have a food bank.
A couple of months ago my wife earwigged two women talking outside as she waited for a friend.
One said," I thought you were down here a few days ago?"
The other woman replied,"I was, but I gave all my allowance to the dog because I had no food for him, so Ive come back to get some food for me"
As they both stood there smoking silk cut at 14 quid a packet.

Another quandary?


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2022)

From experience a more common reason for bed blocking isn't that people are waiting to go into homes, but that they're waiting to GO home, and their homes for one reason or another aren't deemed suitable. I was in hospital for three months and for last month the other three in a small ward of four were there solely because their homes needed modification before they were allowed home. Had I not desperately wanted to get home they could have kept me there for another eight months. 
This was a small hospital where we were sent after major operations in the main hospital, and our bed blocking was stopping others following us (I spent an unnecessary week in the main hospital as someone couldn't leave the other hospital on time) and them in turn being the main cause of ambulances being held up because of lack of beds. I read in the local press of a paramedic spending a whole shift in his ambulance outside the hospital.


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## mikej460 (13 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> In our town we have a food bank.
> A couple of months ago my wife earwigged two women talking outside as she waited for a friend.
> One said," I thought you were down here a few days ago?"
> The other woman replied,"I was, but I gave all my allowance to the dog because I had no food for him, so Ive come back to get some food for me"
> ...


I had to lookup the cost of a packet and was stunned to see that silk cut do indeed cost over £14 a pack of 20 . Even if you keep it to 20 a day that's £100 per week


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## Terry - Somerset (13 Jul 2022)

It is easy to assert that problems in the NHS and social care could all be solved with more funding, but many of the problems could have been addressed long ago had the political will existed so to do:

the disconnect between NHS and social care has been evident for decades. Compartmentalising budgets and management means that priorities and actions are often discordant
the ambulance response crisis arises as they are unable to transfer patients on arrival to A&E, but wait - sometimes for hours. Re-allocation of resources in the hospital could alleviate the problem - albeit at the expense of some other service. Need a clear view of priorities.
funding for care of the elderly is a continuing mess. Splitting health care (free) from social care (effectively means tested) is questionable. Proposals to sustainably fund long term elderly care - insurance, tax, means testing etc - have created noise not solutions.
The system may need more public funding - but we should fix the system flaws before writing out the cheques. 

BTW - I'm glad I have up smoking 20 years ago - health aside, saving comfortably pay for a couple of nice holidays a year.


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## Keith 66 (13 Jul 2022)

mikej460 said:


> I had to lookup the cost of a packet and was stunned to see that silk cut do indeed cost over £14 a pack of 20 . Even if you keep it to 20 a day that's £100 per week



I gave up smoking 17 years ago, at the time i was a 40 a day roll up man. Today the cost of my habit would be the equivalent of a mortgage.
No wonder people have to resort to food banks if they smoke.


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## Jameshow (13 Jul 2022)

kinverkid said:


> I hope nobody minds and I apologise for the long read, but this might be the post to share what has very recently happened to me and a reminder that not everything goes the way we plan it. At the beginning of the year, I started contributing to D_W’s post ‘Anyone Want to do a Weight Loss Challenge’ I had put on quite a bit of weight during 2021 and stopped running in the September of the same year. I stopped drinking beer which was my main source of empty calories and started running. By mid-May I ran a 10K race which was my best time for four years. One week later we were camping in Lincolnshire where I did another couple of 10K leisure runs. The day after my last run while visiting Boston I suddenly, completely lost my appetite. This was to last all week until the following weekend when we were camping in Cheshire that I knew I needed to see a GP. I made an appointment on a call-back system and got a reply within thirty minutes asking me to go to the surgery the next day. We de-camped, got home and the following day (Tuesday) I saw the GP. By this time, I was jaundiced, my whole body itched and my poo and wee had changed significantly. She sent me to the hospital where someone would be waiting for me. I didn’t make it back out of that hospital until the following Tuesday.
> 
> The original thought was that I had a blockage in my gall bladder which could be caused by several things. They then concluded that I had a tumour on my pancreas, and I needed specialist help. My CT and MRI scans were sent to the Queen Elizabeth hospital, Birmingham. They contacted me the following Wednesday asking my wife and I to come to a meeting Friday to meet the specialist nurse who would introduce us to a surgeon, oncologist and anaesthetist as well as to have several tests and samples taken. They explained exactly what was going to happen if I agree to come in Sunday evening and have a D.D.D.P. operation on Monday. This is a variation of a Whipple operation to remove the cancerous head area of the pancreas. This is called Fast Tracking and is offered to those that meet an age, health and fitness level.
> 
> ...



Yikes thought I hadn't seen you around here....
Glad your on the mend!


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## D_W (13 Jul 2022)

Glitch said:


> Lymes disease is a thing in the U.K..
> Not too common but on the rise I think.
> Initial symptom is a bullseye  looking bite. After that it gets confused with flu.
> 
> ...



It has a poor history of being diagnosed here, too. It presents similar to flu, but the variant going around here causes a fever and enlarged lymph nodes several days to a week after introduction. The spot from it is light pink and distant from the bite area (I'm sure there could be more spots or none). the pediatrician told my wife that if they wait to treat it until they have a positive test it can be too late, or it may never show on teh assay at all. I have no idea what the test is, but she was sure it's lyme - another benefit of taking the kid to a pediatrician instead of an adult doc - the kids are the ones in the fences and hedges rubbing everything that the deer touch here. 

Neighbors coworker ignored the signs and was dead of lyme in less than a year - organ failure. At least that's what the guy claimed, that the symptoms were only recent. 

This state has the unwanted achievement of having more cases than anywhere in the US. I doubt all of them are reported to the CDC, so the number is probably low here:








Pennsylvania has most lyme disease cases in the nation as tick season returns


Cases statewide are up 173% from 2010 levels. This means those planning to explore the Keystone state's wooded areas and grasslands this summer should take precautions.




www.phillyvoice.com





The deer are thick as thieves here thriving in the burbs on lack of hunting and huge browsing choices of shrubs and flowers. I've long been an advocate of giving spears to the neighborhood because they are tame enough to be gotten with them. they can be entertaining if you dont' get between them and a fawn, but the ticks aren't that entertaining.


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## Bingy man (14 Jul 2022)

Jonm said:


> ?
> edit, presumably Facebook market place. -p, no idea.


Yes sorry not up to date with social media abbreviations


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## imageel (14 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> Sell them sooner than you think you need to unless you're using them. If you're using them to the last day, find someone who is willing to help your daughter unload them and don't get too concerned about whether she gets every penny.
> 
> i've run into two people in the last couple of months who have a whole pile of wood and tools and sudden health turns give them a short lifetime and no energy to sell either. Even in my mid 40s, i'm realizing that I shouldn't be holding on to stuff I'm not using and I've unloaded a whole bunch in the last year but twice as far again beyond that to go.


Oh dear, I've missed the mark by 20+ years...
TBH I plan to continue woodworking and other workshop activities till I drop not only because it's what keeps me relatively fit and active but because I enjoy it and get immense pleasure throwing myself into whatever new project and occasional reading aside I've never been a sit down and vegetate kinda guy (read 'old man').
I hope your son recovers quickly and has no lasting side effects from what can sometimes be a debilitating infection


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## ian33a (14 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> From experience a more common reason for bed blocking isn't that people are waiting to go into homes, but that they're waiting to GO home, and their homes for one reason or another aren't deemed suitable. I was in hospital for three months and for last month the other three in a small ward of four were there solely because their homes needed modification before they were allowed home. Had I not desperately wanted to get home they could have kept me there for another eight months.
> This was a small hospital where we were sent after major operations in the main hospital, and our bed blocking was stopping others following us (I spent an unnecessary week in the main hospital as someone couldn't leave the other hospital on time) and them in turn being the main cause of ambulances being held up because of lack of beds. I read in the local press of a paramedic spending a whole shift in his ambulance outside the hospital.



From my experience with my dad, the bed blocking is because people are waiting to be moved on to the next stage of medical care - be this going home, going to a temporary assessment care home to decide the next steps, being sent to a rehabilitation hospital because they are too well to be in hospital but not well enough to go home or, simply, because there is no where, of any description, to take them. We've been in one or other of these scenarios at least three times in the past twelve months with dad.

As to paramedics being on their ambulance for the whole shift - in the south west, this has become routine. I've spent much of a paramedics shift sat in the ambulance with my dad, with two paramedics, just waiting. I've even experienced a changeover in shift - the ambulance which took dad to the hospital car park came from a different health care district and had to return there at the end of the shift. The paramedics moved my dad, his possessions and the trolley on which he was lying from one ambulance to another and the whole waiting game began again until a trolley slot became available in A+E. He then had to wait on a trolley for 24 hours (last time). On a previous occasion he had to wait 36 hours!

My dad is still in the hospital, a continuation of the car park wait that I explained above, and on the various visits I have made to see him pass that ambulance car park. Fifteen ambulances waiting one time, seventeen another and twenty three on another occasion. 

Even fifteen ambulances, that's thirty paramedic professionals who are taken out of the community and unable to help in field emergencies. 

The whole system is a mess and I feel very sorry for the paramedics. So many of them get a hard time when they arrive six, maybe ten hours after a relative initiates a call to 999. It simply isn't their fault. I wont give them a hard time personally because I appreciate the difficulties that they are facing and the fact that they appear to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

My mum died just under three years ago. She fell and had a bleed. My dad sat with her on the floor waiting for an ambulance to arrive. It took six hours. He was pleading with them by the end. They were both 88 at the time. She died three days later in hospital with us by her side. I asked for a formal explanation of why the ambulance took so long. I got a very detailed written explanation. Ambulances and beds were under pressure even then. 

Is the situation particular to my dad's local university hospital? I understand not - it became acute in Cornwall first, then Plymouth, then Torbay and now Exeter. Where we used to live in Surrey, although slightly better, it was still pretty dire. 

The whole system is broken and needs fixing - and I suspect via the private purse if I am honest.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Jul 2022)

ian33a said:


> From my experience with my dad, the bed blocking is because people are waiting to be moved on to the next stage of medical care - be this going home, going to a temporary assessment care home to decide the next steps, being sent to a rehabilitation hospital because they are too well to be in hospital but not well enough to go home or, simply, because there is no where, of any description, to take them...



My point exactly. The three chaps I was in with for the last month could have been dealt with by district nurses at home. The whole system is choked, not just the major hospitals we see queues of ambulances filmed out side.

Cornwall? The population has nearly doubled since 1971. Hospitals have been enlarged, but have we any new ones? Of course not. Treliske is a nightmare despite wonderful people doing their best. More chiefs than indians.


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## sawtooth-9 (14 Jul 2022)

Where has this post gone ?
Thought it was about what people may think of you once you are gone.
The harsh reality is that what people think of you - is their business, not yours.
It's their problem, not yours.
Having died, and been revived - with some interesting memories ( which I do not talk about ) - suggest you don't waste your time here with this introspective angst.


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## Just4Fun (14 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> As they both stood there smoking silk cut at 14 quid a packet.


[Expletive deleted!] Is that right? 14 quid a packet? I have never smoked so I have no idea how much fags cost, but 14 quid a packet is way more than I would have guessed. Maybe I would not be very good on "The price is right".


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## Dave Moore (14 Jul 2022)

Kittyhawk said:


> Sounds like you ought to be my older brother
> I'm 77, slow heart rate, don't run but cycle everywhere, don't climb mountains but 'go bush' for extended periods, did a lot of single-handed ocean sailing in the 60's - 70's, kayaked a lot of the NZ coastline, lakes etc.
> The only thing I disagree on, you're not the richest man in the world - I am.


You must be a member of WEF then!


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## Fordgate1 (14 Jul 2022)

mikej460 said:


> Actually there are many complex reasons for bed blocking and it is seldom a lack of space in homes. I had a detailed analysis undertaken at one health authority which concluded that the reasons were often to do with who pays, the NHS or the Council. This was closely followed by poor post-discharge care planning, inadequate pharmacy support at weekends, no patient transport at weekends and believe it or not families that refuse to accept the, often elderly, relative back home.


We have to remember the Laws/Osborn(Lib Dem/Con) austerity cuts took money way from the NHS and Local authority adult care services. Places in care home and hospital were removed. We are no seeing the full impact of these cuts. We were out of home for 8 months due to flooding when the EA budget for river dredging was cut.


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## Thingybob (14 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> Yes sorry not up to date with social media abbreviations


Who is


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## Spectric (14 Jul 2022)

mikej460 said:


> I had to lookup the cost of a packet and was stunned to see that silk cut do indeed cost over £14 a pack of 20 . Even if you keep it to 20 a day that's £100 per week


So by having a healthy lifestyle and not smoking then on the basis that many smokers will consume more than twenty a day we can assume they spend £600 a month at least. So buying the odd expensive tool on a whim is just a reward paid for by not smoking and we have something to show for it rather than coughing up bit's of our lungs. 



Phil Pascoe said:


> Cornwall? The population has nearly doubled since 1971.


Population increase has not been accounted for in so many ways, the only real winners out of this have been the property developers who mostly build utter shieete and make huge profits but do not contribute to local services such as hospitals, doctors, utilities and local services. It is getting worse because they can continue to build shieete that is not fit for future housing needs because the government has not seen fit to update the building standards to force them to make houses that are ultra insulated that would reduce future energy needs and cost to the owners. Population increase should have resulted in a proportional increase in government funding for many sectors, are there enough fire engines, ambulance and police for example but no, they take the increase in income but waste it elsewhere.

If only the people who make the decisions and run / try to run the country actually thought about what people will remember them as being, or what history will say about them when they are long gone.


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## mikej460 (14 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> So by having a healthy lifestyle and not smoking then on the basis that many smokers will consume more than twenty a day we can assume they spend £600 a month at least. So buying the odd expensive tool on a whim is just a reward paid for by not smoking and we have something to show for it rather than coughing up bit's of our lungs.


Absolutely


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## mikej460 (14 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> Population increase has not been accounted for in so many ways, the only real winners out of this have been the property developers who mostly build utter shieete and make huge profits but do not contribute to local services such as hospitals, doctors, utilities and local services. It is getting worse because they can continue to build shieete that is not fit for future housing needs because the government has not seen fit to update the building standards to force them to make houses that are ultra insulated that would reduce future energy needs and cost to the owners. Population increase should have resulted in a proportional increase in government funding for many sectors, are there enough fire engines, ambulance and police for example but no, they take the increase in income but waste it elsewhere.
> 
> If only the people who make the decisions and run / try to run the country actually thought about what people will remember them as being, or what history will say about them when they are long gone.


The developers pay councils huge Community Infrastructure Levies and they are legally bound to publish what it has even spent on.









Communities to see how housing developers cash benefits them thanks to new planning rules


Local people will be able to see how every pound of property developers’ cash, levied on new buildings, is spent supporting the new homes their community needs.




www.gov.uk





I have read instances where developers apply to reduce this levy as well as subsequently reducing the number of social houses they got planning permission for.


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## Spectric (14 Jul 2022)

Well it is not working up here, lots more houses whilst local sewers struggle, my dentist is twenty miles away and thats private as no NHS for miles, no well paid jobs but lovely area for retirement, public transport is chaos and in some places just a weekly bus service. As for social housing on these new estates, the developer is doing no one any favours as the social / economy housing is placed in the least desirable location where someone looking to purchase would think twice, ie next to sewage farm, used as sound break next to main road or right next to a Hv substation with pylons as neighbours.


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## Amateur (14 Jul 2022)

Can anyone give an old fart some idea how to delete Alerts?


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## MikeK (14 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> Can anyone give an old fart some idea how to delete Alerts?



Are you asking about alerts to this thread, or alerts in general? If the question is about alerts to this thread, go to the upper right corner of the thread window and click on "Unwatch", then click on "Unwatch" in the window that pops up.

If the question is about alerts in general, click on your username in the upper right corner of the page, and then click on "Preferences" in the window that pops up. Scroll down the list of options until you find "Receive a notification when someone..." and unselect any of the alert options you don't want.


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## D_W (14 Jul 2022)

Amateur said:


> In our town we have a food bank.
> A couple of months ago my wife earwigged two women talking outside as she waited for a friend.
> One said," I thought you were down here a few days ago?"
> The other woman replied,"I was, but I gave all my allowance to the dog because I had no food for him, so Ive come back to get some food for me"
> ...



That's not exclusive to the UK. Cigarettes are a little cheaper here, but not much. They are priced high under the semi-scam that the extra cost taken from them will help fund the additional public cost care of smokers later (Medicare). It probably wouldn't take long to find that the tax revenue is just going into state and federal general funds.

The problem is it the tax is paid mostly by people of lower means and at a high % of their income. Or put a different way, it's just a demonstration of how people who make poor decisions will continue to make them, and it's deemed OK because it's a "sin tax".

EDIT; looked this up - on the state side here, half of the revenue goes to cHIP (funding for health insurance for low income children - so that's a good thing), and almost half goes to pay for agricultural easements (what?). Not sure if easements are common there, but state and local funding often goes to farmers in the US in areas where development would be gainful as a payment to the farmers for promising not to sell their land to developers. 

The page reporting the tax revenue isn't very good about clarifying that's all of the tax revenue from the cig. tax. It probably isn't. 

Separate link showed that low income households in NY state (very high state cigarette tax) with smoking residents pay 23.6% of their income for cigarettes. Low income was defined as < 30,000 dollars, so the percent is high, but the income figure would include that and below. It'd be hard for a household with more than one person to live on that (but they probably don't - that's before public benefits).


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## Keith 66 (15 Jul 2022)

Time to give up smoking if you are paying nearly a quarter of your income for it.


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## sawtooth-9 (15 Jul 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> Time to give up smoking if you are paying nearly a quarter of your income for it.


What RIGHT does any government have to to impose "legal" stealing on a product which is legally sold.
Whether you smoke or not, THIS IS THEFT !
It's not surprising that the "illegal" tobacco market thrives !
Bit sick and tired of "do-gooders" imposing their will on others - while the governments profit !
Puff or not - you should be angry at the principle.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2022)

and petrol, and alcohol, and ... ?


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## sawtooth-9 (15 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> and petrol, and alcohol, and ... ?


Too true !
People have been "dumbed down" to accept that governments have the RIGHT to steal from us.
Time for a "revolution" ?
Oh, YES


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## Jameshow (15 Jul 2022)

I ge


sawtooth-9 said:


> Too true !
> People have been "dumbed down" to accept that governments have the RIGHT to steal from us.
> Time for a "revolution" ?
> Oh, YES



I guess the alternative is prohibition.... Or a denial of healthcare to those who smoke?? 

There again it should apply to road cyclists too and defo motorcyclists!


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## Keith 66 (15 Jul 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> What RIGHT does any government have to to impose "legal" stealing on a product which is legally sold.
> Whether you smoke or not, THIS IS THEFT !
> It's not surprising that the "illegal" tobacco market thrives !
> Bit sick and tired of "do-gooders" imposing their will on others - while the governments profit !
> Puff or not - you should be angry at the principle.


We pay VAT on virtually everything we buy, we pay duty on fuel, non of us like it but its the price we pay to live in so called civilised societies. Taxing smokers isnt theft any more than paying any other tax, except that smoking kills people & puts ever more of a burden on healthcare services. In that case taxing smoking heavily makes sense to me.
Of course im speaking as a holier than thou smug ex smoker here!


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## Daniel2 (15 Jul 2022)

As already said, a civilised society carries a financial cost which can
only be provided by the populous, and then, ideally, can be
administred by a government.
Where I do take issue, however, is the amount of corruption and
downright mismanagement of resources perpetuated by our
government, it seems to be regardless of political party.
Why does it seem impossible to have an honest, public serving
government ?


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> ... smoking kills people & puts ever more of a burden on healthcare services...


It's not really an argument as the government take three times more in tobacco taxes than it spends on smoking related diseases. dead people don't claim pensions, either. As an eighteen year ex smoker, I'd be happy to see tobacco banned altogether, although on a personal level people's smoking doesn't worry me - I don't blame people and and I don't get high and mighty about it.


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## Droogs (15 Jul 2022)

Because the people who are honest, public serving minded generally get off their backsides and work in the charity sector to actually achieve something


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## Terry - Somerset (15 Jul 2022)

Public expenditure - NHS, education, roads, defence etc etc - needs to be funded through broadly matching taxation. Running a deficit indefinitely is not sustainable.

Taxation all goes into a Treasury "pot" and is doled out to different government departments based on policy, obligations, who makes the best arguments etc etc.

Where and how taxes are raised is a mix of different considerations - ease/cost of collection, fairness (depending how you define fair), changing behaviours (eg: smoking, alcohol, petrol use), etc

Tobacco taxes are not theft. It is taxation to change behaviour and protect the public -a prime responsibility of government. It does not directly fund the additional cost to the NHS - just as fuel and road taxes exceed amounts spent on roads.

Whether taxes are so high as to be an affront to the personal freedom we should all enjoy to do both the very foolish and very sensible is open to debate.


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## Kittyhawk (16 Jul 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> smoking kills people & puts ever more of a burden on healthcare services.


I feel sorry for smokers and I have an intense dislike of tobacco companies for foisting their drugs on the addicted and the impressionable.
Later in life after I qualified as an ambo and got turned loose on the poor unsuspecting public I had one patient that I got dispatched to two or three times every winter. He had smoking induced emphysema which the cold weather would make worse and I'd usually find him collapsed, blue and barely breathing. So I'd put a nebulizer mask on him and pump a dose or two of salbutamol/ibrapropium mix into him and then more oxygen to get his O2 levels up, all the while keeping my IV kit handy in case I had to put a line in and feed him a bit of the hard stuff if he wasn't responding. He would recover though, as much as he was able, and refuse transport to hospital in the back of my little yellow truck and would be reaching for another smoke before I was even out the door. I wanted to smack him one.
He was a tough old bloke until the day he wasn't and there was nothing I could do for him any more.
Every ambo will have a similar tale to tell and its not a very nice story but I don't regret it if it makes just one smoker reconsider.


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## Amateur (17 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> and petrol, and alcohol, and ... ?


.....Sex and Rock and Roll?


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## D_W (20 Jul 2022)

Curious as to what the difference in cost of medical care is for smokers vs. non. The mortality rate for smokers is about double that of non-smokers at any given age. I'm sure it varies by age, but it was something like that.

At young ages when the mortality rate is fairly low, it doesn't make that much of a difference.

But I would bet overall, the average smoker has a *lower* cost to society and not great because their shortened life expectancy is anticipated to be in retirement when they are drawing from the economic system, not contributing,

Per capita expenditures for people living through a year often describe higher care costs for smokers, but they are not a realistic picture of the actual impact because they don't account for a smoker's shorter average life expectancy.

This study in the new england journal of medicine discusses this and projects lifetime medical costs to be substantially lower for a smoker than a non-smoker, despite the fact that in some studies when survivorship isn't accounted for, the cost to provide medical services to smokers can be 40% higher per year. 









The Health Care Costs of Smoking | NEJM


Special Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — The Health Care Costs of Smoking



www.nejm.org





Just how much shorter life expectancy is depends on who is a "smoker" (how long, and how much), but the typical reduction in life expectancy for lifetime heavy smokers is more than 10 years. Most of that occurring across the population in retirement years. 

In simplified terms (it doesn't quite work this way), if the average person lives 22 years after retirement and the average smoker lives 12, it doesn't matter if the smoker is incurring greater costs even at 40% as their relative overall cost of medical care in retirement would be 24% less.


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## D_W (20 Jul 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> What RIGHT does any government have to to impose "legal" stealing on a product which is legally sold.
> Whether you smoke or not, THIS IS THEFT !
> It's not surprising that the "illegal" tobacco market thrives !
> Bit sick and tired of "do-gooders" imposing their will on others - while the governments profit !
> Puff or not - you should be angry at the principle.



My comment above addressed this - the idea that taxes would be collected on cigarettes and somehow that would offset the "cost of smokers". The real cost of smokers is that people lose relatives at an earlier age. I doubt the total cost to society is anything as the lifetime lost is mostly in later years (when people are drawing from social programs but not contributing). 

The essence of sin taxes in reality isn't to help anyone - it's to find a subset that you can tax without losing votes.


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## Scarlet Lancer (23 Jul 2022)

DRC said:


> It seems to me the USA members have an awful lot to say in a UK workshop.





Spectric said:


> It all comes down to whether nature has a purpose or an objective, or is it just a pointless merry go round of continous birth offset by death.
> 
> The question to ask is why is there a form of inteligent life on our planet and nothing on other planets within light years away, it does seem odd why we are just an isolated group of living beings in this part of the universe. Given we do not know just how big the universe is then you have to accept that there has to be other life out there and maybe other isolated groups but again why, surely everything has a purpose and we cannot just be an accident. Then given the complexity of a human life form are we really saying that just given enough time evolution can produce us from maybe a single celled amoeba! There are really to many coincidences and there has to be something else involved that can glue all the pieces together and make sense and reason to life itself, maybe we began somewhere many light years away on some other planet but got exiled to this corner of the universe like a prison colony of the unwanted, maybe we were the rejects or some experiment that is still being watched to see how things evolve.


I am lost with this to be honest I just can’t see a reason is it a cutting from “Watch tower”?


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## selectortone (23 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> It all comes down to whether nature has a purpose or an objective, or is it just a pointless merry go round of continous birth offset by death.
> 
> The question to ask is why is there a form of inteligent life on our planet and nothing on other planets within light years away, it does seem odd why we are just an isolated group of living beings in this part of the universe. Given we do not know just how big the universe is then you have to accept that there has to be other life out there and maybe other isolated groups but again why, surely everything has a purpose and we cannot just be an accident. Then given the complexity of a human life form are we really saying that just given enough time evolution can produce us from maybe a single celled amoeba! There are really to many coincidences and there has to be something else involved that can glue all the pieces together and make sense and reason to life itself, maybe we began somewhere many light years away on some other planet but got exiled to this corner of the universe like a prison colony of the unwanted, maybe we were the rejects or some experiment that is still being watched to see how things evolve.


What if atomic physics is wrong and the nucleus of an atom isn't the smallest thing in the universe? What if every nucleus of every atom in our universe is in fact its own universe containing billions of galaxies? And conversely, our universe is just the nucleus of an atom in a larger universe? And onwards and onwards, smaller and larger, ad infinitum?

What if those specks of dust floating about in the sunlight in my workshop window
are all universes? And what if.............

Well, depending on your point of view, all will be revealed when you die. Or it won't. So why worry about what people might think when you shuffle off?


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## Spectric (23 Jul 2022)

selectortone said:


> What if atomic physics is wrong and the nucleus of an atom isn't the smallest thing in the universe?


That is why these scientist have theories, they are possible but not proven.

Perhaps we are the smallest thing in the universe, so small that we don't see reality and time for us is always extreme slow motion. So in the big world we could be so small that we all fit in the equivalent space of a square mm ! We could all be living in someones home but we are so small to see anything and time and distance are so different that it is like two different worlds.


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## Terry - Somerset (23 Jul 2022)

As a child, on long journeys with my parents, I convinced myself we were actually driving in circles with an all powerful being changing the scenery. Complete nonsense of course - or it may be true.

These days I prefer pragmatism and rational thought to speculation on the improbable and unproveable. The universe may simply be a kind of fractal Mobius strip - but does it matter? 

There are an infinite number of "what ifs" - are chisels sentient beings, dovetail joints a legacy of a Martian invasion, can talking to trees make the trunks grow straighter, is Titebond actually lots of very little people holding on tight - none of these thoughts now trouble me.


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## selectortone (23 Jul 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> an all powerful being changing the scenery


This is a common theme in science fiction. Robert Heinlein's famous 1941 short story 'They' is a favourite of three generations of my family.


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## Abel Magwitch (24 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> ..OK, the title is actually a scenario - it's not my scenario. I'm worried about quality of life and doing meaningful things while I'm alive.
> 
> I have a relative who has spent his life generating money and investing it into an absolutely bonkers absurd amount while he lives on the state pension level of income. He spent decades in some odd mode of worrying about becoming poor somehow (50 of him could live on his means and be comfortable - maybe more). He was raised that way, but for some reason, making the pile bigger increases his satisfaction. He wanted to give the money to his kids, but they're already set for life, too (thanks to imitating dad) - and they haven't met his criteria for being absurdly enriched - having children and creating generational wealth and comfort that he sought.
> 
> ...


I have a very rich friend, in his 80s who is still accumulating stacks of money. He owns an American style Diner, where the Diner operators pay him £3,500 a month to rent. There are lots of things like that he is still involved with. He has 4 houses, full of Alchys, drug addicts and prostitutes that cause him gigantic headaches. He endures this for the £10,000 a month he makes out of them. He lives in a modest 4 bed house with a second hand car and a live apart GF. What he knows is that his 5 kids will squander his fortune so he has tried to tie everything in property. He loves money more than sex he says. I can believe.


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