# Recommendations for a mortice gauge?



## Andy Kev. (11 Oct 2015)

Good Morning All,

I've decided that I need a mortice gauge (up to now I've got by with accurate marking and using a single Veritas wheel-type marking gauge). This should be a one off purchase so I would like to get the best I can which I reckon should mean that the chief qualites should be accuracy and robustness. Which model do you recommend?


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2015)

There's only ever been one worth considering and that's the Marples. Though there are variations of the Marples pattern e.g. slide instead of turn-screw, which makes it cheaper.


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## Jelly (11 Oct 2015)

Personally I'm a firm beliver that the traditional style wooden gauges are the best type available, so I'd get several of the inexpensive Marples Pattern ones from faithful or crown tools and use a file to sharpen the pins into small knifeblades.

You could get several old ones from ebay and give them the same treatment...

Just like clamps, one can never have enough gauges...

Edit: Jacob beat me to the punch.


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## John15 (11 Oct 2015)

+ 1 for the screw adjustment Marples gauge.

John


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## AndyT (11 Oct 2015)

As above, but I just wanted to point out that Joseph Marples (unlike William Marples) still make these in Sheffield and sell them through the usual distributors. See http://www.marples.co.uk/rosewood-gauges.html.

A cheaper but effective method is to realise that in practice all your hand mortising will be at one or two fixed sizes only. So you can just add a second pin to an old marking gauge, at the right distance from the existing one to suit your chisel. Not such a smart, desirable tool though.


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## CStanford (11 Oct 2015)

I have a 1970s (I believe) era Marples screw adjust gauge. Works fine. Holds its adjustment with a gentle snugging up of the screw.

Can't stand, I mean can't stand, wheel gauges.


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## Zeddedhed (11 Oct 2015)

AndyT":1xknr96v said:


> As above, but I just wanted to point out that Joseph Marples (unlike William Marples) still make these in Sheffield and sell them through the usual distributors. See http://www.marples.co.uk/rosewood-gauges.html.



I have one of those, bought from Axi I believe.
Actually it's a combination gauge (at least I think that's what you call them - single pin on one side of the stem and usual double adjustable on the other side).

It seems to work OK although I have recently noticed that the stock is not square to the stem - wonky mortice I guess. It doesn't really bother me much but just saying.

I also bought an Axminster cutting gauge based on the same basic pattern. The knife and wedge seat in a round hole on the stem making it quite tricky to get the edge of the knife parallel to the face of the stock. Is that how they all are I wonder, and am I being a bit pathetic about it?


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## CStanford (11 Oct 2015)

The edge of the knife actually shouldn't be perfectly parallel to the stock. See Robt. Wearing et al.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2015)

Zeddedhed":33vx2gbd said:


> ...).
> 
> It seems to work OK although I have recently noticed that the stock is not square to the stem - wonky mortice I guess. ....


It doesn't matter if the stock is not square, within reason. All that's required is that the pins should be roughly opposite the centre of the stock.


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## Racers (11 Oct 2015)

9th September by Racers, on Flickr

Home made and it seems to work well. 

Pete


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## D_W (11 Oct 2015)

Either the type above or a japanese type in good shape (not the new and cheap or new and very expensive type, but can be found used in older styles for about $25). 

I like the japanese type better, but it really doesn't make any difference.


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## blackrodd (11 Oct 2015)

I am using an old brass and ebony mortice gauge, with a screw adjustable end, I believe it was my fathers,
I also have his beech marking gauge, look like the old school type pattern
Regards Rodders

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/2395310 ... AvQr8P8HAQ


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Oct 2015)

Andy Kev.":2k7b60mm said:


> Good Morning All,
> 
> I've decided that I need a mortice gauge (up to now I've got by with accurate marking and using a single Veritas wheel-type marking gauge). This should be a one off purchase so I would like to get the best I can which I reckon should mean that the chief qualites should be accuracy and robustness. Which model do you recommend?



Hi Andy

You could just get another wheel gauge and use them together. It would need to be a wheel gauge since working from the reference side would require a line that does not wedge the wrong side of the line. Veritas sell a double wheel gauge that has had good reviews.

Anyway, the very best mortice gauge I own is a Kinshiro. This has a double knife, cuts a clean, clear line ... but this one not made anymore (on the right) ..






The down side of this gauge is that the setting is lost as soon as you have offset mortice-and-tenons, such as in a table. One wants the head to move while the cutters remain fixed.

So I made two different types. One is the wheel type (actually using LN cutters) ...











The problem I have with this type of gauge is that the lines are very faint as you achieve little downforce.

A cutter is better, and so I made a fixed blade mortice gauge witth a moveable fence and cutters. Actually, I made replaceable cutters for my 1/4" and 3/8" mortice chisels ...






This retains the Japanese roots ...






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Zeddedhed (11 Oct 2015)

CStanford":hugjhnmp said:


> The edge of the knife actually shouldn't be perfectly parallel to the stock. See Robt. Wearing et al.



Not having any idea what Robt. Wearing et al refers too would you care to expand on that please?


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## Peter Sefton (11 Oct 2015)

I like to use the Joseph Marples mortice gauge but have them tweaked for me down to 4mm pin spacings for finer work. 

I had a great tour around their tool works a few of years ago when going on an exploratory buying trip. Tony Marples showed me around the workshop and all the machines they have adapted over the years to make their gauges. I had a great talk with Tony including how Ashley lies shared part of his fathers workshop back in the day when AI first started. Tony was surprised I wanted to see the workshops as his usual buyers only want to grill him in the office on how cheap they can get his tools! (which I thought was very sad) I wanted to see if he could make tools to my specification.

Some users prefer the Veritas Dual marking gauge, I have added one to my own tool kit this week but don't forget to buy the optional shaft clamp you will need it! I thought I would take advantage of the new lower prices on the Veritas.

Cheers Peter


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## Andy Kev. (11 Oct 2015)

Thank you all very much indeed for your replies.

D_W and Derek: I tried a Japanese gauge when I went on a course, exactly like the one on the right in Derek's first picture, and it drove me absolutely nuts in frustration. Try as I might, I just couldn't get the thing to work properly. The one in the last two pics looks like a dream though as well as extremely practical and I'll file that away for future reference.

Meanwhile, it looks like Marples is the answer for the time being. This one seems to be the best:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... ml#SID=537

And it's probably what I'll be choosing unless anyone knows of any serious drawbacks with it.

Peter, the Veritas dual gauge was the other solution that occurred to me and I'm very pleased with my single wheel Veritas gauges. I quite like the idea of trying something more traditional though.


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## Woody2Shoes (11 Oct 2015)

Robert Wearing:- http://lostartpress.com/products/the-es ... woodworker

I like the Veritas dual marking gauge - I run a sharp pencil along the line(s) if otherwise too faint.

Cheers, W2S


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## G S Haydon (11 Oct 2015)

Another vote for the Marples style.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Oct 2015)

Andy Kev.":ysfp3nlz said:


> ... D_W and Derek: I tried a Japanese gauge when I went on a course, exactly like the one on the right in Derek's first picture, and it drove me absolutely nuts in frustration. Try as I might, I just couldn't get the thing to work properly. ...




Andy, the way to set up a Japanese gauge is as follows:

Mark across the width with the mortice chisel, as shown below.






Simply place the ends of the knives (or points) in the ends of the cut. This sets up the cutting width.






Now slide the head of the gauge against the work piece to set its depth. This completes setting up the mortice gau






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Oct 2015)

"I had a great talk with Tony including how Ashley lies ..." :shock:


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## JonnyW (11 Oct 2015)

I'm just about to order the Joseph Marples Trial 1 guage. I love the full brass face and the semi ornate attempt at one of the screw ajusters. 

A lovely looking guage. 

Jonny


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## custard (11 Oct 2015)

Zeddedhed":1w7po5uy said:


> CStanford":1w7po5uy said:
> 
> 
> > The edge of the knife actually shouldn't be perfectly parallel to the stock. See Robt. Wearing et al.
> ...



Robert Wearing and others.

The theory is that if the knife is slightly skewed it pulls the stock against the workpiece. Maybe, but it also cuts a thicker gauge line which might not be a price you're willing to pay. Like everything in woodwork, worth considering but don't take it as gospel as it all depends on the woods you work and the work you do.


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## Zeddedhed (11 Oct 2015)

custard":3alu6w89 said:


> The theory is that if the knife is slightly skewed it pulls the stock against the workpiece. Maybe, but it also cuts a thicker gauge line which might not be a price you're willing to pay. Like everything in woodwork, worth considering but don't take it as gospel as it all depends on the woods you work and the work you do.



So would this explain why rather than fitting the knife in a square hole on the stem it's fitted in a round hole? Presumably so that I can set it slightly 'toe'd in' or 'toe'd out', depending on your point of view.


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## CStanford (11 Oct 2015)

What Custard said... thanks....

For marking mortises all you need is the faint line produced by the traditional pin gauge. You do not need, or particularly want in my opinion, incised lines in the length of the grain. The only lines that needs to be incised are the cross grain lines at mortise top and bottom. 

One's mortise chisel should fit just barely, a gnat's hair, to the inside of faintly marked lines from the pin gauge. The chisel is responsible for making the cross grain cuts to form the mortise walls. Incised lines are not necessary.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2015)

CStanford":1sr18a3s said:


> ...
> For marking mortises all you need is the faint line produced by the traditional pin gauge. You do not need, or particularly want in my opinion, incised lines in the length of the grain. The only lines that needs to be incised are the cross grain lines at mortise top and bottom. ....


Almost the only line anywhere which needs cutting (with a gauge) is the base line of DTs, IMHO.


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## CStanford (12 Oct 2015)

I only incise the top and bottom of a mortise if it's to have a two-shouldered tenon. No need if it's a four-shouldered tenon since nothing shows.


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## Shrubby (12 Oct 2015)

Andy - looking at your location I'd suggest a s/h Ulmia 315k . It's really a nice tool to use 
Matt


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## DTR (12 Oct 2015)

Jacob":2juqg3th said:


> Though there are variations of the Marples pattern e.g. slide instead of turn-screw, which makes it cheaper.



Another vote here for the Marples type. My go-to gauge is one with a slide. I did have one with a turnscrew, but it ended up with a snapped beam :?


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## Andy Kev. (12 Oct 2015)

Derek,

thanks for demystifying the Japanese gauge. Shame nobody on the course was in a position to do that.

Shrubby,

thanks for the Ulmia suggestion but I think I fancy going down the Marples and traditional British route (especially as it seems to be so highly thought of).


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Oct 2015)

Just a small tip for anybody with a newish screw-adjustable mortice gauge. Mine (mid 1980s vintage) was very stiff to operate when adjusting the gap between pins. Stripping it down revealed that the little spring-clip (or spring-washer) holding the screw into the lump at the end of the brass slide-rod made the turning action of the screw very tight. Easing the clip off a tiny bit with a screw-driver tip loosened it up just nicely, and the whole tool worked beautifully once reassembled. (I think older gauges had a different method of retaining the screw, so that won't apply to vintage models.)

Another tip is that new ones sometimes have pins that are not exactly at the same protrusion from the stock, so the gauge marks one heavy line and one barely a scratch. It's worth a bit of work with a small, fine file to get them same height, and as others have said above, shaping the pins to tiny round-ended knives helps a bit, too.


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2015)

Another tip is if you slide the stock off don't lose the little metal button which stops the screw from marking the brass slider. They are easily lost and old ones often don't have them, which shows up as marks.


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## Zeddedhed (12 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":1p7zjg23 said:


> Just a small tip for anybody with a newish screw-adjustable mortice gauge. Mine (mid 1980s vintage) was very stiff to operate when adjusting the gap between pins. Stripping it down revealed that the little spring-clip (or spring-washer) holding the screw into the lump at the end of the brass slide-rod made the turning action of the screw very tight. Easing the clip off a tiny bit with a screw-driver tip loosened it up just nicely, and the whole tool worked beautifully once reassembled. (I think older gauges had a different method of retaining the screw, so that won't apply to vintage models.)
> 
> Another tip is that new ones sometimes have pins that are not exactly at the same protrusion from the stock, so the gauge marks one heavy line and one barely a scratch. It's worth a bit of work with a small, fine file to get them same height, and as others have said above, shaping the pins to tiny round-ended knives helps a bit, too.



Excellent tip CC. Just done it to mine and it's now so smooth it operates from voice commands only!! I rubbed on a bit of candle wax as well just 'cos.....


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Oct 2015)

Zeddedhed":2uhbnnyh said:


> Just done it to mine and it's now so smooth it operates from voice commands only!! I rubbed on a bit of candle wax as well just 'cos.....



Glad it helped! It certainly changed my gauge from a tool I cordially detested because it was so hard to adjust into a pleasure to use.


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## JonnyW (15 Oct 2015)

Hi Andy Kev. Did you buy your Trial 1 guage? 

If so, what do you think?

Regards

Jonny


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## Andy Kev. (15 Oct 2015)

Hi Jonny,

it's ordered and is due any day and as soon as it comes it will be put to work marking some mortices. I'll report as soon as that is done.

All the best,

Andy.


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## JonnyW (16 Oct 2015)

Nice one Andy. Thanks for that. 

Jonny


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## Andy Kev. (21 Oct 2015)

Right then, my Trial 1 Combined Mortice and Marking Gauge made by Marples (around 45 quid from the better tool dealers) arrived yesterday and I've just tried it out.

It's nicely made, a little smaller but a little heavier (thanks to the brass face on the fence) than I had imagined. It sits wonderfully in the hand and using it is completey natural and instinctive, which in my book is the mark of good design. It is aesthetically very pleasing indeed. 

I reversed the alignment of the stick (I'm sure there's a correct term) and the only thing to watch here is the little brass button via which the locking screw makes contact with the stick, as it will cheerfully drop out of the tool.* If that happens, just drop it back into the little hole. The distance between the two marking pins is adjusted by rotating the screw built into the end of the stick and said mechanism functions as you would expect it to.

The pins are good and sharp and so mark well and easily: light for the first stroke and then with a bit more emphasis if you think you want a couple more.

It's hard to write about something where everything works as it should. I can think of no reason not to recommend this to anybody who is looking for a mortice gauge.

Thanks again to all those who recommended it to me on this thread.

*Edit: Just noticed that Jacob has already mentioned this.


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## David C (21 Oct 2015)

Zeddehed,

The round hole is a nasty, modern, cost cutting perversion. I think I would look for an old gauge or cut a new opening for a square section wedge.

David Charlesworth


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## Zeddedhed (21 Oct 2015)

David C":9jcb1ju1 said:


> Zeddehed,
> 
> The round hole is a nasty, modern, cost cutting perversion. I think I would look for an old gauge or cut a new opening for a square section wedge.
> 
> David Charlesworth



Tell it like it is - don't hold back.

Thanks for confirming what I thought David. I'll square the little pipper up and cut a new knife and wedge for it.


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## JonnyW (22 Oct 2015)

Thanks for the review Andy.

David sorry for being stupid. What do you mean by the nasty, modern, cost cutting perversion of a round hole? And what Zeddened have you squared off?

Again sorry for my silly questions.

Jonny


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## David C (22 Oct 2015)

The gauge (Cutting gauge) is supplied with a tapering cone for a wedge. (It probably has a flat on one side, I can't remember).

The hole which goes through a layer of brass is a normal parallel hole.

Therefore the nasty narrow knife is not held at all at the underside of the stem, where it matters, but only at the top.

I am not clear how the hole is to be turned into a conical shape without a suitable reamer.

Anyway, the result is a tool which is not fit for purpose.

best wishes,
David


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## JonnyW (22 Oct 2015)

David, thank you for that. Yes I see what you mean.

Can you recommend a vintage marking and cutting gauge or what I should look out for?

Thanks 

Jonny


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## AndyT (22 Oct 2015)

I'm confused too. Andy Kev has a Joseph Marples Trial 1 combined Mortice and Marking gauge, which he is happy with. It is a marking gauge not a cutting gauge so will have pins all round. I guess it's the one Jacob found a picture of.







But what is the inferior gauge that Zeddedhed has which David C says is wrongly made?

From the discussion, it's a cutting gauge, so should have a tapered square wedge in a tapered square hole, holding a flat blade. 

As far as I can see from the Joseph Marples and Thomas Flinn sites, the only J Marples cutting gauge is this one, which does.






It is rosewood with some brass, though not branded as Trial 1. As far as I can see the picture shows a correctly made square sided hole.

Is that what you are talking about, or is there another one out there somewhere, to be avoided?


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## D_W (22 Oct 2015)

Andy Kev.":1rqb2n7f said:


> Thank you all very much indeed for your replies.
> 
> D_W and Derek: I tried a Japanese gauge when I went on a course, exactly like the one on the right in Derek's first picture, and it drove me absolutely nuts in frustration. Try as I might, I just couldn't get the thing to work properly. The one in the last two pics looks like a dream though as well as extremely practical and I'll file that away for future reference.
> 
> ...



It's quite a while on and I missed this, but the setup is different, as Derek shows. I usually set mine up to the mortice chisel and if they are good quality, then you can just slide the head while holding both blades and there's no issue. 

The cheap ones don't work as well because the fit between the blades isn't good. 

There are several levels of them
* cheap (like 10 pounds) which will require a lot of work, and the irons aren't particularly thick
* 100 pounds new (stu has one of that type at Tools from japan, can't remember the brand but I have it) - those work like a dream, but they are not on the cheap side. 
* 250 pounds (kinshiro). I can't comment on how the kinshiro works, but it is a sought after maker. If it works better than the 100 pound version, I'd be surprised, but maker name counts in japan and people will pay, I just can't bring myself to it
* a used version of a quality gauge from the last few decades - they bring almost nothing here in the states, equivalence of 10 pounds or so, and if they've been taken care of, they work smoothly and easily and have good quality metal parts

All of that said, i started with the cheapest ones, and now I have one of the second and fourth each. I have a different opinion of them now, but even so, I think there are some people who won't favor the fact that the blades can move. 

Type #2 above actually has a thumb screw that sets the two blades to a fixed position so that it's easy to set, but i'm not keen on the idea of recommend someone buy something that would cost what's equivalent to $125 to us. 

Also, i've seen warren mickley suggest that it's not historically inaccurate to create fixed width gauges for each chisel that you use on a regular basis (if you only use two or three mortice chisels on a regular basis, which is the case for me, that may be the most practical and inexpensive way to go).


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## Biliphuster (22 Oct 2015)

I have one of the Trial 1 gauges (the full brass face plate is particularly nice) and couldn't be happier with it. I have considered filing off the reverse pin as it bites me when I am careless.

I love the older gauges with brass stems and ebony stocks, or the brass framed ebony ones, but having to use a screwdriver to tighten the stock is a deal breaker for me, the convenience of a thumbscrew is much more useful.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Oct 2015)

The pins'll usually pull out with a pliers.


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## JonnyW (22 Oct 2015)

Andy, I started to say it was a cutting gauge and the way the conical pin holds the blade, but I re-read your post and you are aware of that. 

Jonny


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## Andy Kev. (22 Oct 2015)

Just in case I've inadvertantly caused any confusion, the one I've got is on the top left pic on this link

http://www.marples.co.uk/trial1.html

Essentially the same as the one Andy T. showed but with a solid brass face to the fence.


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## David C (22 Oct 2015)

Andy,

I was answering a point from page 1!

The round holed cutting gauge I saw was sold with Axminster branding, but I'm sure it was made by Marples.

I complained to Ian Styles about it. Don't know what happened next.

The gauge shown above is good.

David


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## Bm101 (22 Oct 2015)

Just browsing, having a cider and a light went on. Hold on... popped out to the shed. Woo result! It's a bit battered but it looks fine. All parts in good order. Picked it up on the annual family hols to Devon (Beer to be precise) for £6.50 according to the sticker, couple of years ago. 
Beginners luck?


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## Zeddedhed (23 Oct 2015)

Andy, sorry If I've confused the issue here - my gauge is an Axminster one http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-su ... ting-gauge

Superior it is not.

I'll square out the stupid round hole (probably easier than making it conical) and make a square wedge and better knife, thus creating the Zeddedhed Improved Superior Cutting Gauge.

Don't hold your breath though. This is a 'tuit' project.


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## AndyT (23 Oct 2015)

Ah, thanks. That's a carefully posed photo then, on the Axi site.


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## Zeddedhed (23 Oct 2015)

Very carefully posed. Almost misleading some might say.


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