# Clifton plane sale!



## David111s

Happy Boxing Day!

Just noticed all Clifton planes are in the Axminster clearance sale! 

Just thought I'd share that...

Regards 

David


----------



## Fromey

Many thanks for the tip-off. I just scored a Clifton 3110 with £38 off. I'd been eyeing one of those up for some time.


----------



## Noggsy

The word is the range has been dropped because production is being moved abroad and Axi aren't happy about it. They apparently have their own range of premium planes being developed at the moment.


----------



## Andy RV

The main appeal with clifton is that they make high quality, well engineered and british made products. I've no doubt that the far east produce some quality items but I'm sure clifton will struggle if production is moved out of the uk. I'll certainly have no interest in buying any future products if its true.


----------



## carlb40

Noggsy":1pf5t7vx said:


> The word is the range has been dropped because production is being moved abroad and Axi aren't happy about it. They apparently have their own range of premium planes being developed at the moment.



Oooh wonder if we will see an Axi version of Quangsheng planes then  If we do, i hope we get the half sizes like 4 1/2, 5 1/2 8) This is the reason i haven't yet purchased one of the Quangsheng planes as i prefer the half sizes.


----------



## Fromey

Moving out of the UK would be a real pity. How reliable are these "word is"?


----------



## Noggsy

It's what one of the staff told me in the shop, can't say how reliable they are though.


----------



## Vann

Noggsy":ys1kalkv said:


> The word is the range has been dropped because production is being moved abroad...


That would be very sad if it's true. It was inevitable that the introduction of Quangsheng planes would seriously hurt Clifton sales  I thought Clico made Clifton planes almost as a hobby, and would rather drop the line than send production overseas.



Noggsy":ys1kalkv said:


> ...and Axi aren't happy about it. They apparently have their own range of premium planes being developed at the moment.


Manufactured "abroad" no doubt :roll: 

Lets hope it's not true.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## jimi43

Business...any business...has a duty to its shareholders/owners to make money.

The fact that Axminster is increasing their range of two imports...not from China but from the Americas...indicates to me that they sell and not only sell, but are sold profitably even after freight costs from over the Atlantic!

The Canadians and Americans are clearly making money from their products and doing so internationally.

So...putting aside the merits of the products themselves and looking only at the popularity....then the mix has to be correct..right across the business to succeed.

Of course the whole thing might be for completely different reasons which we are (so far) not party to.

Jim


----------



## MickCheese

Today I popped up to Axminster in High Wycombe, just a few minutes from me. I had been given a couple of gift cards totalling £40. 

I picked up a small 150mm adjustable square for £4 ish and then saw the cabinet with all the 'bling' planes so on a whim bought a Clifton no.4. 

I have to say it's lovely, I have a Record no.4 and Stanley no.4 that I thought worked very well but now know they just work quite well. 

So a trip to the shop to spend my £40 cost me £150. Ah well. 

Mick


----------



## David111s

Clifton moving abroad?! I do hope not! Must admit I was rather suprised to see them in the clearance but never thought they might be dropped for those reasons.


----------



## Philly

I've spoken to Clifton - they most definitely are NOT moving production abroad and will continue to make planes in Sheffield.
Hope this helps,
Philly


----------



## Paul Chapman

Philly":1rt6uauz said:


> I've spoken to Clifton - they most definitely are NOT moving production abroad and will continue to make planes in Sheffield.
> Hope this helps,
> Philly



Many thanks for clarifying that, Philly. I felt the rumour was hard to believe.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Vann

Thanks Philly, much appreciated.

And thank goodness :!: 

Cheers, Vann :deer :deer :deer


----------



## Shrubby

I would take what sales reps and shop staff say with a pinch of salt - I've heard some utter BS in my time . This is a pretty typical spoiler
Matt


----------



## Sheffield Tony

Axminster may not be continuing to support my hometown, but I shall. My christmas money will be heading to Thomas Flinn this year.


----------



## jimi43

Rather than speculate on what has happened to cause the Clifton planes to be removed from the new 2013 line-up....I think it would be worth waiting for an official view from either party or both.

There might be some totally innocent reason for this change. One thing's for sure.....Axminster are, temporarily at least, one of the cheapest place to get one...eh Mick!? :wink: 

Jim


----------



## MickCheese

jimi43":2ecmpcj3 said:


> Rather than speculate on what has happened to cause the Clifton planes to be removed from the new 2013 line-up....I think it would be worth waiting for an official view from either party or both.
> 
> There might be some totally innocent reason for this change. One thing's for sure.....Axminster are, temporarily at least, one of the cheapest place to get one...eh Mick!? :wink:
> 
> Jim



Jim they are!

Today I have just made shavings from bits of scrap wood rather then actually made anything.

Been comparing my existing planes with the newby just trying to justify the expense. I did think that in 6 months I could probably sell the Clifton and may even get my money back but I see this as something I will be happy to keep forever.

Mick


----------



## Noggsy

Jim - mea culpa. I probably shouldn't have repeated gossip without checking, apologies.


----------



## iNewbie

Lie Nielsen have a Lifetime Warranty. Is Clifton's the same - I can't find any details on their warranty. Thanks.


----------



## Sawyer

Paul Chapman":1mzh53vl said:


> Philly":1mzh53vl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've spoken to Clifton - they most definitely are NOT moving production abroad and will continue to make planes in Sheffield.
> Hope this helps,
> Philly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks for clarifying that, Philly. I felt the rumour was hard to believe.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul
Click to expand...

 
Thanks Philly. That's saved me from having a seriously spoiled day.


----------



## Sawyer

Axminster seem also to have de-listed many of the Henry Taylor carving tools - I ended up buying a Kirschen (needed in a hurry) because the HT equivalent had been dropped. In future, I'll shop elsewhere if necessary. Sheffield needs support.


----------



## Graham Orm

Noggsy":3mohfgvh said:


> The word is the range has been dropped because production is being moved abroad and Axi aren't happy about it. They apparently have their own range of premium planes being developed at the moment.



Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## jimi43

Grayorm":2qhufhkk said:


> Noggsy":2qhufhkk said:
> 
> 
> 
> The word is the range has been dropped because production is being moved abroad and Axi aren't happy about it. They apparently have their own range of premium planes being developed at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Click to expand...




> I've spoken to Clifton - they most definitely are NOT moving production abroad and will continue to make planes in Sheffield.
> Hope this helps,
> Philly



Instantly fixed on P1 by Philly the Healer!

:wink: 

Jim


----------



## SBJ

jimi43":9j0l5mr6 said:


> Grayorm":9j0l5mr6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noggsy":9j0l5mr6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The word is the range has been dropped because production is being moved abroad and Axi aren't happy about it. They apparently have their own range of premium planes being developed at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've spoken to Clifton - they most definitely are NOT moving production abroad and will continue to make planes in Sheffield.
> Hope this helps,
> Philly
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Instantly fixed on P1 by Philly the Healer!
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Jim
Click to expand...

Any reason that Clifton would divulge such sensitive information if it were true? I'm sure if they were moving production they wouldn't just let anyone know until they absolutely had to.


----------



## jimi43

SBJ":19d2meg1 said:


> jimi43":19d2meg1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grayorm":19d2meg1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've spoken to Clifton - they most definitely are NOT moving production abroad and will continue to make planes in Sheffield.
> Hope this helps,
> Philly
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Instantly fixed on P1 by Philly the Healer!
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Jim
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any reason that Clifton would divulge such sensitive information if it were true? I'm sure if they were moving production they wouldn't just let anyone know until they absolutely had to.
Click to expand...


I would like to think that Philly has more of a relationship with them than just anyone!

Probably more accurate information than pure rumour and speculation which seems to be rife. :lol: 

Jim


----------



## Jake

The most preposterous part of the rumour is the insinuation that Axminster would care about production in China. I mean come on.


----------



## jimi43

Jake":1u6q9kqz said:


> The most preposterous part of the rumour is the insinuation that Axminster would care about production in China. I mean come on.



Spot on there! Never thought of it from that direction...nice one Jake! =D> 

Jim


----------



## Graham Orm

jimi43":1yuv5j54 said:


> Grayorm":1yuv5j54 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noggsy":1yuv5j54 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The word is the range has been dropped because production is being moved abroad and Axi aren't happy about it. They apparently have their own range of premium planes being developed at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've spoken to Clifton - they most definitely are NOT moving production abroad and will continue to make planes in Sheffield.
> Hope this helps,
> Philly
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Instantly fixed on P1 by Philly the Healer!
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Jim
Click to expand...


Phewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


----------



## Sawyer

SBJ":3mao69uq said:


> Any reason that Clifton would divulge such sensitive information if it were true? I'm sure if they were moving production they wouldn't just let anyone know until they absolutely had to.


 

How to lose most of your business instantly!
Surely 'Made in Sheffield' is one of their strongest selling points?


----------



## Vann

Sawyer":310xjcn7 said:


> Surely 'Made in Sheffield' is one of their strongest selling points?


I agree.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## dunbarhamlin

Isn't it time this silly thread was locked down, if not purged?
As demonstrated above, folks often respond to the first few posts without reading the full thread, thus perpetuating and reinforcing unfounded and potentially harmful rumour.


----------



## Jake

dunbarhamlin":eece426i said:


> Isn't it time this silly thread was locked down, if not purged?
> As demonstrated above, folks often respond to the first few posts without reading the full thread, thus perpetuating and reinforcing unfounded and potentially harmful rumour.



I dunno - it tells you something about Axminster sales and marketing techniques (especially as they monitor these forums and haven't been bothered to step in, disown the statement and quash it).


----------



## [email protected]

Hello everyone, 

Sorry I have only just stumbled across this thread (might be best to give me a nudge in the future  ). Please see the statement below and if you have any questions please feel free to ask, either on here, PM or email. If I don't know the answer i will do my best to find out for you!

*Removal of Clico/Clifton from Axminster*

As a company we have spent the last six months reviewing our product lines to ensure that we are able to offer customers the best range, value and innovation possible. We have introduced a number of new brands and seen exciting developments from existing brands, however we have had to also look at lines where we haven’t seen similar growth make a number of difficult decisions regarding the future relationships between Axminster and these suppliers.

Regrettably as part of this, we took the decision for 2013 to remove Clico/Clifton from the Axminster offering. Our ongoing work with one of Europes leading boring bits manufacturers; Fisch, meant that we had overlapping product lines and further analysis showed that the demand we were seeing for Clico/Clifton lines was not growing in line with the rest of the business, infact it was declining. As a company, it’s a difficult decision to move away from a longstanding supplier, particularly when that supplier manufactures in the UK; something we are incredibly passionate about. In order to be able to continue to offer you the service that we pride ourselves on, we must continue to move forward with our product offering and the suppliers which we use. Our passion for UK manufacture continues and we have a number of existing and potential UK manufacturing suppliers who we are proud to support, whilst we are no longer working with Clico/Clifton we continue to communicate with them and have a huge respect for their reputation and the products which they manufacture in the UK.

Regards,


----------



## Dangermouse

All down to turnover and profit, as I thought. In this climate one can't expect any other decision from a business. Jessops didn't keep ahead of the market and see what's happened to them. I must admit Clifton are VERY expensive and who can these days, unless a very rich person or dare I say MADDDDD !!!!!!! (hammer) :shock: :twisted: :evil: :roll: :mrgreen: afford to buy a plane for several hundred pounds. Especially if its only for hobby work


----------



## bugbear

Dangermouse":3dm38dzn said:


> . Especially if its only for hobby work



*Only* hobbies :shock: ?!

Some people spend BIG money on hobbies - golfers, yachtsman, people with Porsches on track days, cyclists with carbon fibre bikes, cooks with a shelf full of Mauviel. 

Why not woodwork?

BugBear


----------



## paulm

From my perspective as a customer Richard, it’s a difficult decision to move away from a longstanding supplier with a good and well earned reputation such as Axminster, and I respect the business reasoning outlined above, however for me personally I think a more rounded business plan should have room to support the few remaining British manufacturers of quality hand tools.

Given that it doesn't then I have already moved my personal loyalty to those retailers that do better support the home based manufacturers such as Clifton (while of course offering non-British alternatives as well for those that want them), such as Classic Hand Tools, Workshop Heaven, Turners Retreat, Toolpost, and more recently Peter Sefton's new enterprise for example. For more mainstream power tools and machinery there are also many alternative suppliers and my business will likewise follow elsewhere.

I don't expect it will register on Axminsters corporate earnings but I at least will feel more comfortable with spending my money with businesses more aligned with my way of thinking, which will make me feel happier at any rate 

Incidentally, having emailed Axminsters Customer Service Manager on 28th December to ask about the change and expressing my thoughts, I have still to date not had any meaningful response or information except for a couple of "holding" responses, until I saw your posting above. The lack of meaningful response to date feels somewhat disrespectful as well as disappointing, and only reinforces my thoughts that I should go elsewhere in future.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Paul Chapman

Well said, Paul - my thoughts exactly (I only received holding replies as well). Thank goodness for retailers like Classic Hand Tools  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Dangermouse

bugbear":1wo0d1ym said:


> Dangermouse":1wo0d1ym said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Especially if its only for hobby work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Only* hobbies :shock: ?!
> 
> Some people spend BIG money on hobbies - golfers, yachtsman, people with Porsches on track days, cyclists with carbon fibre bikes, cooks with a shelf full of Mauviel.
> 
> Why not woodwork?
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


If you got it, spend it, its just that some haven't and i'm getting a bit fed up with people just assuming everyone has bucket loads of dosh to lash out on tools etc for their pure enjoyment.


----------



## Peter Sefton

We all know that Axminster offer a very efficient and customer based business of which I have been and continue to be a customer. 
I also have experienced great service from Classic Hand tools and Workshop Heaven both with very personal service, we have been advising and more lately selling tools to students to help support our teaching workshop and hope to offer the same level or service and advice as our contemporaries.
We have had excellent support from our British manufactures on our open days and free entry tool shows, including Ashley Iles, Sorby, Clifton and Flinn saws as well as Mathew from Workshop Heaven and Mike from Classic Hand tools all giving their time for free to demonstrate and promote themselves and woodworking (some of the bigger boys declined to attend). 
I support and respect the British makers for staying true to the traditions and skills that have been passed down through the generations, they do not redesign and make tools that furniture makers have not needed for past two hundred years, are they looking after their customers or themselves? 
I feel they need our support in return, if we don’t support them we will not have the choice or competition in the market to keep prices keen, we will all lose in the long term.
Now I am getting of my soap box and back to my work bench I am much more at home there.


----------



## Vann

[email protected]":3glaa9pm said:


> ...if you have any questions please feel free to ask, either on here, PM or email. If I don't know the answer i will do my best to find out for you!


Hi Richard. Does that also mean the end of the line for your Clico manufactured 'Victor' irons?

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## jimi43

This development opens up the debate in general of the health of British industry as a whole and poses certain questions for me.

There is no doubting the customer care and honesty of Axminster as a supplier...indeed...just recently I have had to liaise with their customer care department and have to say that their assistance has been second to none.

So...given the reasons for dropping Clifton given by Richard in this recent statement, the most important of which was:



> ......and further analysis showed that the demand we were seeing for Clico/Clifton lines was not growing in line with the rest of the business, infact it was declining.



...one has to question why this is happening.

Sales decline is driven by definition by the customers. Price is clearly not the issue as LN and Veritas are similarly premium priced and yet Axminster are not dropping these ranges...indeed...from what I observed from their last visit...they are expanding these.

So what do customers perceive that drives them to buy foreign imports which must include high shipping margins in preference to home-grown product?

In the present economic climate, customers are wanting value for money and does the move in market purchasing trends towards quality products from the Americas mean that for the price level...they see LN and Veritas better value for money than Clifton? It would seem so.

Or is it a question of design? Modern versus traditional? I think possibly but then LN are also traditional in most aspects.

Is it marketing and viral penetration? Probably. Question how much Clifton promotes their product, I don't think their exposure is as much...so does this lack of promotion mean that they are not as obvious?

Have we not seen this before with the car and motorcycle industry? 

I make this post to stimulate ideas. I am the last person to want the industry of Sheffield or Britain to go under and if I felt that buying only British products would solve this I would buy British but alas...I fear it wouldn't have any more impact than a grain of sand in a hurricane! It is the hurricane itself which needs to change direction if it is not to blow itself out and become a memory.

Jim


----------



## Sawyer

Paul and Paul, I too have queried with Axminster the disappointing dropping of Clifton and not even received a holding reply. Looks like we'll just have to support Clico via Axminster's competitors.


----------



## [email protected]

Thank you all for your comments, I will be sure to pass all of your views on to the relevant person. 

Sorry if you have not received a response to an email sent to us, if you are able to forward the email to me and I will make sure I respond to everyone individually. My email address is [email protected]




Vann":37yakw48 said:


> [email protected]":37yakw48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...if you have any questions please feel free to ask, either on here, PM or email. If I don't know the answer i will do my best to find out for you!
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Richard. Does that also mean the end of the line for your Clico manufactured 'Victor' irons?
> 
> Cheers, Vann.
Click to expand...


Hello Vann,
Yes, Unfortunately we will no longer have the Victor blades. 

Regards,

Richard.


----------



## iNewbie

jimi43":1e5nkxui said:


> Is it marketing and viral penetration? Probably. Question how much Clifton promotes their product, I don't think their exposure is as much...so does this lack of promotion mean that they are not as obvious?



The Clifton website is archaic. Their own online presence is cringeworthy.

At least with Veritas and LN (and most other companies) each tool has its own page. So at least you get something to look at - especially as these tools are not cheap. Do they really want to sell product/themselves? 

The one pic they do have is a reverse image! - read the clifton name on the planes. *palmface*

Clifton


----------



## bugbear

Dangermouse":2kt1yans said:


> If you got it, spend it, its just that some haven't and i'm getting a bit fed up with people just assuming everyone has bucket loads of dosh to lash out on tools etc for their pure enjoyment.



The majority of people tend to speak from their own circumstance and context, more or less. It's a natural tendency, and quite difficult to avoid.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

Clifton need to follow Stanley, who have realised that they need to follow LN, LV, in producing modern planes.
Nothing wrong with trad planes of course, but there are tons of them about, second-hand and cheap. Not to mention Quansheng - just as good as Clifton if not better, but less attractive.


----------



## Paul Chapman

Jacob":3hro9aap said:


> Clifton need to follow Stanley



You've made some daft comments in your time, Jacob, but that one's an all-time classic :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## jimi43

Paul Chapman":14eb0bc3 said:


> Jacob":14eb0bc3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clifton need to follow Stanley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've made some daft comments in your time, Jacob, but that one's an all-time classic :lol:
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul
Click to expand...


But be careful about copyright issues.....or they could end up at the Old Bailey!!

\/ 

Coat?  

:mrgreen: 

Jim


----------



## AndyT

Picking up on Jim's comments and those from iNewbie about the online buzz around Clifton planes compared to Lie Nielsen and Veritas...

I think that the nub of the problem is that a new woodworker, wanting to buy a decent plane, will probably be learning about them and looking for sources of supply, on-line. There are so many more woodworkers in the US than there are in the UK that even from over here it's US websites and blogs which will come up the most.

And what's the top result when I Google for "Clifton Planes"? - a blog post from Chris Schwarz written in 2004, republished in 2007, saying that they can be excellent but the quality control is inconsistent! So even if that is no longer true, and even if the customer care is excellent, that's the message that gets through.

And I know that Clifton have an excellent track record of attending shows - I've played with a lovely no 6 at Westonbirt and been very impressed - but they don't continually publish well-shot instructional videos, newsletters etc that the other makers of premium quality planes do, to build up brand awareness.


----------



## Jacob

Paul Chapman":2l51s3yt said:


> Jacob":2l51s3yt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clifton need to follow Stanley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've made some daft comments in your time, Jacob, but that one's an all-time classic :lol:
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul
Click to expand...

Stanley are now making a new range of planes which seem to be improving and gaining in popularity. Maybe you missed all that?


----------



## iNewbie

AndyT":34tvaxjc said:


> And what's the top result when I Google for "Clifton Planes"? - a blog post from Chris Schwarz written in 2004, republished in 2007, saying that they can be excellent but the quality control is inconsistent! So even if that is no longer true, and even if the customer care is excellent, that's the message that gets through.



Exactly. Thats what I noticed when I first looked-up, Clifton's - and I couldn't find a follow-up to Schwarz post. 

The other thing that made me hesitant towards them (as a newbie) was reading their FAQ page. They say the Y-lever "sometimes" breaks. I like their honesty, but its not something I want to read about for an expensive tool. Getting spares and good service is great, but I can't help but wonder if it will fail at the wrong moment...

FAQ - are spare parts available.

I still think they make great tools. I'm not getting a cross & garlic out just yet. :roll:


----------



## woodbrains

Jacob":r3r10w6f said:


> Stanley are now making a new range of planes which seem to be improving and gaining in popularity. Maybe you missed all that?



And they have been universally branded as utter rubbish (and made in Mexico apert from blades). There is even whispers of them being discontinued.

Mike.


----------



## MIGNAL

So woodbrains. Ever tried one of the new Stanleys?


----------



## Jacob

Me neither. But they seem to be approved of here stanley-62-low-angle-plane-t67037.html
and here post741827.html#p741827

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anTD4chmt6Q


----------



## Dangermouse

woodbrains":3v6u8b11 said:


> Jacob":3v6u8b11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stanley are now making a new range of planes which seem to be improving and gaining in popularity. Maybe you missed all that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they have been universally branded as utter rubbish (and made in Mexico apart from blades). There is even whispers of them being discontinued.
> 
> Mike.
Click to expand...


Hi Mike
Yes the early premium Sweetheart Stanley planes have several issues with their design and quality. But fair does to Stanley, they took all the feedback and fixed the problems and now these planes are 90% as good as LN. Even Christopher Schwarz has said so in his blog.

( The logical question at this point is where this tool, at $180, is compared
to its competitors. I think it’s still a notch below the Lie-Nielsen
($245) and Veritas ($220) versions, though only for aesthetic reasons.
The brass knobs aren’t as finished. The casting is a little rougher –
stuff like that. 
With a couple changes, Stanley has made a fully
functional premium tool. Now it will be interesting to see if the
company continues to improve the line. )

As per my review, I was really amazed on what a true "premium" plane I had. I Purchased a Stanley no 62 LA jack for 86.00 including postage and thought it would "ok", turned out to be stunner!
But like Clifton, Stanley do not seem to publicize this achievement at all. Leaving it to a few blogs and hard to find new reviews. When doing some research before buying I couldn't find hardly any up to date reviews, except Christopher Schwarz's and a couple of others. bit of a British Leyland syndrome, If you have a product with problems, then fix it and don't tell anyone, you still get your products laughed at.
So you have a choice, Stanley Premium, Clifton, LN, Veritas, with Stanley's being about 80% cheaper and 90% as good.


----------



## mark w

I wonder if anyone else has noticed a slight slip in the quality of Lie nielsen planes, I was going to buy one of their new low angle jack rebate planes, I took a look at one at last years Westonbirt show at the Classic Handtools stand, the qaulity of the mouth opening was quite poor, not very well machined, I didn`t bother.
I bought a LN low angle 71/2 from Axminster, the brass cap iron clamped down on the blade just over the bevel making it impossible to retract the blade without loosening the cap iron (very fiddly) the back of the mouth opening was poorly machined on this plane as well, I took it back and bought the LN No 7, this is a lovely plane but again the mouth was poorly machined I had to use a file on it! 
As for Clifton planes, I attend a furniture making course at Bridgwater college and see a good number of planes by different makers (bought by my fellow students), the most consistent in quality is Veritas, the most inconsistent is Clifton, but their worst is still better than an Eastern import. Quangsheng and other Eastern imports seem to vary where you buy them from, Quangsheng are good from Workshop Heaven, not as good from Rutlands, I would not touch any of the own brand planes from Axminster, they have proved to be of low quality.


----------



## No skills

If I had money to go buy a new expensive plane Clifton wouldnt be the first brand to spring to mind, I think mainly because the only internet feedback that has stuck in the dark dark recesses of my mind arent that positive. Brand awareness for a 'premium' product is very important - you may make the best product in the world but if nobody knows or you get a bad rep for some reason then you pretty much pineappled.


----------



## woodbrains

MIGNAL":juat2ctv said:


> So woodbrains. Ever tried one of the new Stanleys?



Did a while ago. The block planes are too heavy and the adjuster was awful. The alloy cap was a pain and didn't look like it would last 5 minutes (around the screw slot area). The smoother had awful handles and I didn't like the adjustable mouth, which left sharp protrusions at the front so there was a danger of scarring the work at the critical 'finishing off' stage.. There were other niggles. The shoulder planes look to be irredeemable. The only reason the prices are lower than other premium planes, is that they are cast in Mexico. If Stanley have ironed out the QC problems, then well done to them for listening, at least. But there are inherently bad design issues. They are not cheap enough to live with, and time spent fettling could be spent fettling a vintage Stanley Record etc. which were probably better made in the first place and spend the extra on some superb aftermarket blades. You will end up with a better plane. Admittedly I did not try the LA jack and was in the market for the same a couple of years back. Did not think it worth trying due to the issues of the others and got a used Veritas instead. This was perfect in every repect and ready to go. This is what you should expect from a premium tool. Or fettling an oldie but goodie. The middle ground of, 'reasonable expensive but needing work to get going' seems to be a funny market to aim for and not something anyone in their right mind should advise Clifton of anyone else to target.

The only problem Clifton have is that Britain is too small a market and Americans are patriotic. Anyone there sepending a large amount on a premium tool will almost without question, buy LN or Veritas. This means that Clifton will never have the money for R and D and come up with new innovations like Veritas. We seem to still have time for the colonies, so we buy LN and LV almost as if it were supporting our industry. Added to the fact that the N American makers have more unusual planes, we buy some and then stay brand loyal, pushing Clifton out again. I fear Clifton do not have much of a future, and this makes me sad. Getting them to out source manufacturing, or lessening quality will not help.

Mike.


----------



## MIGNAL

double post.


----------



## MIGNAL

What exactly are the bad design issues? I've been using my Stanley No.4 today and I have to say that what you have just stated is utter nonsense. There is no way on earth that an old original Stanley (or Record) was made as well as the new Stanley premium plane. Not a hope. I should know, over the years I've had well over a dozen old Stanleys/Records. I have fettled a few old Stanleys, to a pretty high level even if I do say so myself. My old Stanley No. 4 has a Ray Iles blade and 2 piece Clifton cap iron. The new Stanley premium is at least as good, actually I think it is superior.
As for 'fettling', there really is very little to do. I've relieved the edges of my new Stanley with some 180G wet/dry - took all of 1 minute!!! No need to seat the frog, no need to true the frog face, no need to flatten the sole, no need to square the sides, no need to flatten the (thick!!) blade, no need to mate blade and chipbreaker. The adjustable mouth is a perfect fit - no gaps, no steps, perfectly level with the sole. Backlash is just over half turn on the Premium Stanley's: what is it on a vintage Stanley?  Actually there wasn't much need to sharpen the blade! Something that can't be said of the Veritas that I bought.
All from someone who has actually bought and used one. I say all this from a position of strength. If I really thought that the new Stanley was poor, I would send the thing back for a full refund.
I'm not going to though.


----------



## woodbrains

MIGNAL":2ooqo5t6 said:


> What exactly are the bad design issues? I've been using my Stanley No.4 today and I have to say that what you have just stated is utter nonsense. There is no way on earth that an old original Stanley (or Record) was made as well as the new a Stanley premium plane. Not a hope. I should know, over the years I've had well over a dozen old Stanleys/Records. Actually I have fettled a few old Stanleys, to a pretty high level even if I do say so myself. My old Stanley No. 4 has a Ray Iles blade and 2 piece Clifton cap iron. The new Stanley premium is at least as good, perhaps superior.
> As for 'fettling', there really is very little to do. I've relieved the edges of my new Stanley with some 180G wet/dry - took all of 1 minute!!! No need to seat the frog, no need to flatten the sole, no need to square the sides, no need to flatten the (thick!!) blade, no need to mate blade and chipbreaker. The adjustable mouth is a perfect fit - no gaps, no steps, perfectly level with the sole. Actually there wasn't much need to sharpen the blade! Something that can't be said of the Veritas that I bought.
> All from someone who has actually bought and used one. I say all this from a position of strength. If I really thought that the new Stanley was poor, I would send the thing back for a full refund.
> I'm not going to though.



OK if you like them, fine. But you are missing the point. For Clifton to reduce the price of thsir planes to the level of these Stanley's, they would have to outsource production to the far East or similar, with all the QC problems that Stanley obviously had, and lack of control to do anything about it without difficulty. Clifton would not be British anymore just as Stanley isn't American. It is the 'advice' that Clifon should adopt Stanley's model that is the issue.

As for design issues of the modern Stanley's; the block plane is too heavy and no amount of customer care or QC checks will change that, it is inhearently badly designed. So is the alloy cap. As is the design of the shoulder plane. The handles on the smoother needs changing. There are other issues. The blades are good and made in Sheffield, I believe. I have Sheffield blades (Clifton) in my vintage Records and they are a match for any high premium production plane and cost less by a wide margin. Each to their own, of course, but the premim Stanleys are just as foreign as Quiangsheng and probably not as good. Definately not as good as LN or Veritas, aside the cost.

Mike.


----------



## Peter Sefton

It’s a real shame that some of the reviews online of Clifton are old and poor - when Fine Woodworking did its Smoothing plane review in April 2011 the Clifton came out joint winner with the more expensive LN, but this review does not seem so readily available. It’s a shame that an English plane maker has a very hard ride in the UK yet the USA are very supportive (and rightly so) of their own tool makers. Trying to break the US market is critical - that’s why one of my Canadian students told me all the Veritas products are in imperial not for the Canadians but to satisfy the American market. I am not sure how big the North American tool market is but I do know the readership of one of the top US woodworking publications is 25 times bigger than the equivalent UK magazine, that’s why they have the budgets to do such in-depth work and articles. When manufacturing for such a big home grown market LN and Veritas have indeed be able to produce, innovate and grow very well notwithstanding the general (but not always) very good quality products they produce. I have not had any more quality issues with Clifton (not including the excellent lapped Veritas blades)in my workshop than I have with other brands but I have seen a few students buying imported tools they just don’t need or fully understand. I do hope that Clifton do continue making world class planes and don’t get squeezed out by the big boys, but it is true, British tool makers marketing is very poor in relation to that of the US - we do have a lot to learn …


----------



## MIGNAL

woodbrains":2etp6n4s said:


> MIGNAL":2etp6n4s said:
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly are the bad design issues? I've been using my Stanley No.4 today and I have to say that what you have just stated is utter nonsense. There is no way on earth that an old original Stanley (or Record) was made as well as the new a Stanley premium plane. Not a hope. I should know, over the years I've had well over a dozen old Stanleys/Records. Actually I have fettled a few old Stanleys, to a pretty high level even if I do say so myself. My old Stanley No. 4 has a Ray Iles blade and 2 piece Clifton cap iron. The new Stanley premium is at least as good, perhaps superior.
> As for 'fettling', there really is very little to do. I've relieved the edges of my new Stanley with some 180G wet/dry - took all of 1 minute!!! No need to seat the frog, no need to flatten the sole, no need to square the sides, no need to flatten the (thick!!) blade, no need to mate blade and chipbreaker. The adjustable mouth is a perfect fit - no gaps, no steps, perfectly level with the sole. Actually there wasn't much need to sharpen the blade! Something that can't be said of the Veritas that I bought.
> All from someone who has actually bought and used one. I say all this from a position of strength. If I really thought that the new Stanley was poor, I would send the thing back for a full refund.
> I'm not going to though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK if you like them, fine. But you are missing the point. For Clifton to reduce the price of thsir planes to the level of these Stanley's, they would have to outsource production to the far East or similar, with all the QC problems that Stanley obviously had, and lack of control to do anything about it without difficulty. Clifton would not be British anymore just as Stanley isn't American. It is the 'advice' that Clifon should adopt Stanley's model that is the issue.
> 
> As for design issues of the modern Stanley's; the block plane is too heavy and no amount of customer care or QC checks will change that, it is inhearently badly designed. So is the alloy cap. As is the design of the shoulder plane. The handles on the smoother needs changing. There are other issues. The blades are good and made in Sheffield, I believe. I have Sheffield blades (Clifton) in my vintage Records and they are a match for any high premium production plane and cost less by a wide margin. Each to their own, of course, but the premim Stanleys are just as foreign as Quiangsheng and probably not as good. Definately not as good as LN or Veritas, aside the cost.
> 
> Mike.
Click to expand...


I don't think I am missing the point at all. I haven't made a comment on Clifton. I don't expect Clifton to compete (on price) with Stanley. I don't expect them to compete with Quangsheng either. I strongly suspect that Clifton are competing for the LN/Veritas market. Those woodworkers who have disposable income will likely buy the aforementioned Planes. Those who have to watch their budget a little more closely will likely buy Quangsheng/Premium Stanley. 
I own a mixture of Planes (far too many!). Veritas, Quangsheng, Premium Stanley and old Stanley/Records. In terms of function I would rate the Premium Stanley on a par with Veritas and my Quangsheng. The wood surface doesn't look any worse after I've used my Stanley premium than it does after I've used my Veritas. I haven't tried it on the wood from hell but I have tried it on Bubinga, Indian Rosewood, Ebony and the more 'friendly' Cherry and Walnut. 
I don't have any experience of the Premium block plane, so I won't comment on that. 
Regarding the alloy lever cap. It can only be a problem if you overtighten it. Providing you use it as it should be I don't see an issue and it really isn't difficult to use it as intended.


----------



## Jacob

Right. I've ordered the Stanley premium 4 to give it a go and compare it with my LV la bu smoother (wossit called- it's the one with parallel sides). 
If it's no good I'll blame MIGNAL and put it on ebay. I've tested quite a few tools this way and not kept them. I usually get most of the money back, even make a small profit occasionally. 
Wouldn't do that with a Clifton at three times the price and bad write ups. I wouldn't want to be stuck with it.


----------



## MIGNAL

You should be able to return it if distance selling rules apply. Not sure about the postage costs.
I'd be very surprised if you found it to be poor in terms of it's function. You will probably find the rear tote less than ideal. That's the only real issue I had with mine. I removed the tote and rounded the transition into the rather flat sides. Took me around 30 minutes. It feels perfectly fine now.


----------



## Sawyer

It's certainly the case that Clifton could do a better job of marketing themselves.
I have 3, (a 4.1/2, a 7 and a 420). All absolutely superb, straight out of the box. 

Do they need to develop a 'modern' plane? Probably not: innovation wise, Veritas are a tough act to follow, whereas most traditionalists probably don't like their style anyway. Then, there's _uber_ trad. Lie Nielson, with Clifton somewhere in between, perhaps?
Yet Clifton planes seem to perform equally well as Veritas or LN, but are cheaper and British. They have a niche, but could market themselves better.

I'm glad to say that they are sold in France, eg. by http://www.gaignard-millon.com/categori ... ie=Clifton
... who give them a very good write up and sell them cheaper than Veritas or LN.

Yes, the US is a big and patriotic market, but Europe is also large and for those seeking quality European tools, Sheffield is the place to look. 

So, marketing...


----------



## Fromey

Perhaps we could help by writing accurate, up to date reviews of Clifton planes and then submitting them to woodworking magazines, especially the big 2 American ones.


----------



## mark w

Brilliant idea Fromey.


----------



## deserter

mark w":1iw1lqz6 said:


> I bought a LN low angle 71/2 from Axminster, the brass cap iron clamped down on the blade just over the bevel making it impossible to retract the blade without loosening the cap iron (very fiddly)



Not wanting to stir up too much, I feel you've missed something. The low angle planes need the iron loosening by 1/2 a turn to adjust them. It is clearly stated on both their website and in the enclosed instructions. 


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


----------



## iNewbie

MIGNAL":3ub1gcye said:


> You should be able to return it if distance selling rules apply.



Don'y you have to send the item back unused for that?


----------



## matthewwh

Just a thought to throw into the hat regarding marketing. 

Effective marketing campaigns are not cheap and eventually have to be factored into the price you pay for the item. 

The ethos of Clifton's business has always been to make the best products possible utilising some very special skills and techniques that are only available in Sheffield and a very few other metalworking centres around the world. Fully annealed castings, hand forged cutting irons, forged auger bits, skilled lathe work, hand finishing and polishing of components etc. You just can't do that anywhere and to the best of my knowledge none of the other manufacturers even come close to matching their production methods, regardless of price.

The whole point of a Clifton is that the money you pay for it ends up in the tool, rather than disappearing in a flurry of glossy leaflets.


----------



## jimi43

matthewwh":gpimh2ch said:


> Just a thought to throw into the hat regarding marketing.
> 
> Effective marketing campaigns are not cheap and eventually have to be factored into the price you pay for the item.
> 
> The ethos of Clifton's business has always been to make the best products possible utilising some very special skills and techniques that are only available in Sheffield and a very few other metalworking centres around the world. Fully annealed castings, hand forged cutting irons, forged auger bits, skilled lathe work, hand finishing and polishing of components etc. You just can't do that anywhere and to the best of my knowledge none of the other manufacturers even come close to matching their production methods, regardless of price.
> 
> The whole point of a Clifton is that the money you pay for it ends up in the tool, rather than disappearing in a flurry of glossy leaflets.



It is sad Matthew that very few companies nowadays can afford to ignore the Internet as a channel. I'm also sure that viral marketing can be very effective...indeed I am certain this thread alone will serve as a talking point in a positive way to Clifton.

You support Clifton because of your company ethos...but answer this...if they ultimately became so unpopular that you had no sales....would you still be able to afford to support them?

I salute companies like yours...Classic Hand Tools and Peter Sefton for supporting British industry and note that you also pioneered QS...and quality QS to allow your customers the option of a more economical solution.

I truly hope that Clifton will survive for many more decades but surely the Axminster channel was a major one for them in getting their product out to a wider audience and they I suspect they now need to look seriously into the causes of the dropping of their product.

Thanks for your views mate.

Jim


----------



## iNewbie

matthewwh":18oy28s9 said:


> Just a thought to throw into the hat regarding marketing.
> 
> Effective marketing campaigns are not cheap and eventually have to be factored into the price you pay for the item.
> 
> The ethos of Clifton's business has always been to make the best products possible utilising some very special skills and techniques that are only available in Sheffield and a very few other metalworking centres around the world. Fully annealed castings, hand forged cutting irons, forged auger bits, skilled lathe work, hand finishing and polishing of components etc. You just can't do that anywhere and to the best of my knowledge none of the other manufacturers even come close to matching their production methods, regardless of price.
> *
> The whole point of a Clifton is that the money you pay for it ends up in the tool, rather than disappearing in a flurry of glossy leaflets.*



No need for any "disappearing flurry of glossy leaflets" when a _decent _website promoting your product (to sell-yourself) serves the same purpose in this cyber day-and-age.


----------



## Jacob

jimi43":2v2ri3q2 said:


> ......
> It is sad Matthew that very few companies nowadays can afford to ignore the Internet as a channel. ......


Why sad? 
Surely it's good that such a cheap and accessible medium is so available. Clifton are just being lazy with their website. They could get a school kid to do a better one.


----------



## jimi43

Jacob":2t4wnk0s said:


> jimi43":2t4wnk0s said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......
> It is sad Matthew that very few companies nowadays can afford to ignore the Internet as a channel. ......
> 
> 
> 
> Why sad?
> Surely it's good that such a cheap and accessible medium is so available. Clifton are just being lazy with their website. They could get a school kid to do a better one.
Click to expand...


Well I'm weeping! :mrgreen: 

What I meant was it is sad that they aren't apparently aware.....and what you said.

Jim


----------



## matthewwh

Better than yours though, isn't it Jacob. :wink:


----------



## Jacob

matthewwh":1ivyd3ax said:


> Better than yours though, isn't it Jacob. :wink:


Well you'd hope so. I guess their business is probably bigger than mine! Most businesses are. 
And my site is all DIM (did it myself). Also mine is in suspended animation pending completion of current projects and a restart later this year I hope. You aint seen nothing yet. :shock:

PS if they need a few school kids to do them a site they could ask a Sheffield school? Could be a good project.


----------



## MIGNAL

Clifton really need some decent photographs of their Planes. Not just a group shot but BIG, professionally shot images of each individual Plane. Small images on websites don't cut it (oops). You have to get those woodworkers drooling, as though they can't function without owning a Clifton plane.
Not a lot wrong with the product. In terms of aesthetics they are the most attractive looking of the 3 higher end Plane makers, IMO.


----------



## MIGNAL

This is a better example, although (I'm guessing) the images look a little over exposed. It would be better if the images could be enlarged. 

http://www.fine-tools.com/G303774.htm


----------



## mark w

Not wanting to stir up too much, I feel you've missed something. The low angle planes need the iron loosening by 1/2 a turn to adjust them. It is clearly stated on both their website and in the enclosed instructions. 
~Nil carborundum illegitemi~[/quote]



I have`nt read that and I did miss it, but you need to loosen the cap iron by more than half a turn to adjust the blade on the 71/2, I noticed on the low angle jack the cap iron does not sit so far forward, it is a good distance away from the bevel, I think this due to the different thicknesses of blade.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

There is a "How it's made" episode which shows the manufacture of Clifton planes. Interesting that they chose Clifton not a manufacturer from the Americas. The making of the blade is the unique bit, I think - others might start with ground flat stock, but no - round bar, forged then laser cut. Glorious mix of the traditional and newfangled !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdH43wiB0IA


----------



## AndyT

Sheffield Tony":s08v39l9 said:


> There is a "How it's made" episode which shows the manufacture of Clifton planes. Interesting that they chose Clifton not a manufacturer from the Americas. The making of the blade is the unique bit, I think - others might start with ground flat stock, but no - round bar, forged then laser cut. Glorious mix of the traditional and newfangled !
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdH43wiB0IA



That's true, and it's a great story of why Clifton planes are good and good value. But you won't find a link to it from the Clifton website. They are similarly reticent about their blades - there's a rather dry description here http://www.clico.co.uk/products/cli...ssories/spare-blades-for-clifton-bench-planes but it doesn't really get across the message that Clifton are different from other makers who have opted for a simpler (cheaper) method.


----------



## Paul Chapman

Mike Hudson does a great job of promoting Clifton planes at many of the shows around the country







He always keeps the planes well honed and has various woods with difficult grain available so that you can see for yourself how well a sharp Clifton plane works. He's a mine of information on planing techniques and well worth chatting to.

However, as others have said, the internet is where people go for information these days and the Clico/Clifton website is very poor. They are doing themselves no favours in having a poor site. They really ought to improve it and ensure the right key words are there so that when you Google Clifton planes it comes out top of the list. Good websites are an essential investment these days.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and entitled to express it. However, if those criticising the Clico website really want to do something constructive, maybe they could get in direct contact with Clico and make some positive suggestions about improving their web presence? Sniping and grumbling on internet forums isn't going to help them much.

Also, as Paul Chapman does above, give them credit for what they do well - selling directly at shows. I'd also add that looking after customers is something they do well, too.

Manufacturing can be an uphill task in the UK, especially if your business uses a lot of energy. The costs of energy and employing people are high in this country, certainly higher than in the USA, and until the burden of taxation and regulation are relieved, it'll carry on being costly. That means less money available for such things as marketing. Frankly, I take my hat off to any company doing labour-intensive, energy-intensive manufacture and still making a profit. They have to battle hard, these days.

If we want British manufacturers to survive, we need to help them, not knock them.


----------



## Peter Sefton

For those who have not seen the (How it is made video) here is a link from my web site, sorry the photos aren’t as good as they could be it is work in progress and I am still looking for a school child to help me Jacob.

http://peterseftontoolshop.com/epages/e ... es/Clifton

Cheers Peter


----------



## Fromey

Cheshirechappie":1r8mpv5n said:


> However, if those criticising the Clico website really want to do something constructive, maybe they could get in direct contact with Clico and make some positive suggestions about improving their web presence? Sniping and grumbling on internet forums isn't going to help them much.



Good point. Perhaps we could write an open letter from the UK Workshop forum (signed by those who agree to its message). I'm up to my eyeballs in exam marking at the moment so no time to rough out a draft. But, off the top of my head an outline could be;

We've been having a discussion about Clifton planes as a result of Axminster withdrawing its distribution.
We believe Clifton planes are premium products and that British industry needs as much support as possible.
We generally consider Internet-based advertising to be a significant contributor to commercial success (especially among international markets).
We generally believe your Internet presence to be poor; uncompetitive web page, few online product reviews, virtually no promotional videos, out of date product reviews.
Purely as a recommendation, we believe developing a stronger Internet presence would benefit your company.
Among many suggestions by forum members are; better designed web site, more detailed and larger images of products, youtube videos about products and supporting their use, campaign to get reviews of product on to Internet sources.
We hope you view these suggestions positively and can find the resources to make some/all of the changes.

We're not going to get agreement on all points and wording, but such a letter, even if not perfect, coming as a collective voice from informed and concerned customers and potential customers might stir them up a bit.

Anyone think this is a good idea? Anyone against it? Anyone want to flesh a letter out (don't have to use my outline)?


----------



## mark w

Just for the record, I think the Clifton planes are the nicest looking, when compared with LN or Veritas.


----------



## mark w

1 for good idea.


----------



## Scouse

Cheshirechappie":ml6vkxut said:


> If we want British manufacturers to survive, we need to help them, not knock them.



They are a business not a charity, as such they should be trying to help themselves, rather than relying on the good nature of consumers. I don't like being hard, but it's a hard world.

A few years ago I looked at purchasing planes for my business. I looked at Lie Nielsen, Veritas and Clifton. The Schwarz review was in the back of my mind (as was Clifton's silent response), but what moved me away from Clifton was the lack of....... I can't think of the word I'm looking for so I'll put it like this. 

L/N had looked at planes and tried to make improvements, A2 steel, ductile iron etc and Veritas planes looked like they had been designed from the ground up. And Clifton? I'm not saying L/N are wildly innovative, but at least it looked like the company was operating in the 21st century. However good Cliftons are, L/N and V had made subtle changes to planes which at least looked like they had thought about what they were doing and worried about their public profile. 

What put me off Clifton was the lack of thought toward the consumer. It was as if they wanted me to buy their planes simply because they were there and I was British. I tried them and they seemed ok, they still had the smell of British Leyland in 1973 about them; looking backwards, plodding on with a cup of tea and a flat cap, ignoring the boat loads of imports pulling the rug out from under them.

I spent a lot of money on L/N and a couple of Veritas, and have not looked back. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like to see Clifton fail as a company, but they do need a BIG dose of 2013 reality. It's a global economy, like it or not, if they are not equipped for the job, no amount of help and good will will save them.


----------



## marcros

i would be suprised if somebody on the forum, who is a web designed by profession, hasn't already emailed them with a link to the forum as evidence and a quote to sort it out.


----------



## Racers

Hi, Scouse

I know what you are saying, LN are exciting, Veritas are to exciting and Clifton are dull, the all work very well, its just you tend to but with your heart not your head.

Pete


----------



## mark w

I thought scousers were more likley to but(t) with their heads not their hearts.


----------



## Racers

Now then, now then, now then...


Pete


----------



## marcros

about 18 months back, i was having a conversation with a forum member about British tool making and selling, and how in my opinion they did not want to sell their tools. 2 examples that I gave were cliffton and ashley iles, both based on my experience of trying to get information directly from the manufacturing company from their website.

At the time, you still had to request and pay for a catalogue from AI because the products were not even on the website. I am happy to say that this has since changed.

A business with no decent web presence is missing out on a huge amount of business. Further on from that, having somebody promote the business through forums etc would be beneficial- much like Rob Lee pops up from time to time to say "this is what we are up to" etc.

we have seen the effects on Rutlands of not bothering with forum comments. contrast that with axi who jump on to sort out issues in the main part. Tom Lie Nielsen has even been known to comment occassionally on things IIRC.


----------



## MIGNAL

Scouse":18ce7bwq said:


> Cheshirechappie":18ce7bwq said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we want British manufacturers to survive, we need to help them, not knock them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are a business not a charity, as such they should be trying to help themselves, rather than relying on the good nature of consumers. I don't like being hard, but it's a hard world.
> 
> A few years ago I looked at purchasing planes for my business. I looked at Lie Nielsen, Veritas and Clifton. The Schwarz review was in the back of my mind (as was Clifton's silent response), but what moved me away from Clifton was the lack of....... I can't think of the word I'm looking for so I'll put it like this.
> 
> *L/N had looked at planes and tried to make improvements, A2 steel, ductile iron etc and Veritas planes looked like they had been designed from the ground up. And Clifton? I'm not saying L/N are wildly innovative, but at least it looked like the company was operating in the 21st century. However good Cliftons are, L/N and V had made subtle changes to planes which at least looked like they had thought about what they were doing and worried about their public profile. *
> 
> What put me off Clifton was the lack of thought toward the consumer. It was as if they wanted me to buy their planes simply because they were there and I was British. I tried them and they seemed ok, they still had the smell of British Leyland in 1973 about them; looking backwards, plodding on with a cup of tea and a flat cap, ignoring the boat loads of imports pulling the rug out from under them.
> 
> I spent a lot of money on L/N and a couple of Veritas, and have not looked back. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like to see Clifton fail as a company, but they do need a BIG dose of 2013 reality. It's a global economy, like it or not, if they are not equipped for the job, no amount of help and good will will save them.
Click to expand...


Nothing special about those attiributes. A2 has it's detractors. Clifton can claim 01 tool steel forged from a round bar, a Plane body casting that goes through a long annealing process, 2 piece cap iron. So what if they do look like a traditional Plane? LN look just as traditional, except that Clifton have the better aesthetics IMO. The only thing really outdated is the Clifton marketing and NOT the actual product.


----------



## Scouse

mark w":32snwgp1 said:


> I thought scousers were more likley to but(t) with their heads not their hearts.



Alright, calm down, calm down! :lol:



MIGNAL":32snwgp1 said:


> The only thing really outdated is the Clifton marketing and NOT the actual product.



As I said, L/N are not wildly innovative in their product, but they do give the impression of a company that cares about it's product and customers, and has given it a bit of thought and promotes it accordingly. Clifton are good planes, as I said, but the company is lazy. It shouldn't be up to a few blokes on a forum to point out the inadequacies of a website to a manufacturer of seemingly national importance. As such I stand by what I said 'It's a global economy, like it or not, if they are not equipped for the job, no amount of help and good will will save them.'


----------



## MIGNAL

I don't think anyone here is disputing their poor marketing. Your earlier reply seemed to suggest that Clifton were somehow lacking in the actual product i.e. they hadn't thought about their Planes in the manner that LN and Veritas have. I don't believe that to be true for one moment, otherwise how does this happen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM


----------



## Scouse

MIGNAL":2tq3dhck said:


> i.e. they hadn't thought about their Planes in the manner that LN and Veritas have.



That's definitely the case when compared with Veritas. I guess with Lie Nielsen it is a marketing thing to a point, they do emphasise the things that they see as an innovation in plane manufacture though.



MIGNAL":2tq3dhck said:


> I don't believe that to be true for one moment, otherwise how does this happen?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM



The same way as Deneb from Lie Nielsen (as Matthew highlights in the video) but without the Clifton; skill of the user?


----------



## Jacob

MIGNAL":31l33k75 said:


> I don't think anyone here is disputing their poor marketing. Your earlier reply seemed to suggest that Clifton were somehow lacking in the actual product i.e. they hadn't thought about their Planes in the manner that LN and Veritas have. I don't believe that to be true for one moment, otherwise how does this happen?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM


Somewhat mystified by the video. What does it have to do with actual woodworking? Absolutely FA in my opinion. Might as well be shaving babies bottoms. It doesn't tell you much about Clifton planes either - I expect many planes sharpened like this one, in the manner of a laboratory microtome, would perform well. 

A lot of this uber planing/sharpening stuff exists in a world of its own and has no relevance to most of us

PS Apparently, in Ultramicrotomy, diamond knives are the thing. It's only a matter of time!


----------



## speeder1987

I never liked Clifton because to me they just seemed a bit boring, but having seen that video its made me appreciate how beautifully engineered they are!

John


----------



## Noggsy

Fromey, cracking idea.


----------



## Sawyer

+1


----------



## speeder1987

I think if a companies business model is so poor that it doesn't successfully market its product, especially with competition who do this with success, then they are in trouble. 

Loosing a sales channel like axminster should be a wake up call! If not then they will have to deal with the repercussions and the potential failure of their business which comes with that!


----------



## Tom K

How did a thread berating Axi for dropping Clifton turn into the end for Clico? Who may well be jogging along quite nicely selling through other outlets. :?


----------



## Peter Sefton

well said that man, are we missing the point? Why have such good English made planes been dropped?


----------



## Jacob

For that matter - why aren't they selling the new Stanleys? It's not a quality issue they sell all sorts of carp.


----------



## MickCheese

Peter Sefton":2mm4nbzk said:


> well said that man, are we missing the point? Why have such good English made planes been dropped?



Peter

We have now gone full circle. I suspect there is just more profit in other brands and Axminster do not want to dilute the pot with less profitable items.

Mick


----------



## RichardL

Well, I came accross this thread and read the first page or so with some horror and I'm glad it was only heresay. If I might be so bold (having lived outside the UK for a while), I think one of the problems is that folk (mainly British) are all too ready to find fault with British made stuff while I don't think its quite the same in the US - they tend to be more supportive of made in the good ol USofA. Its a somewhat different culture - they don't so often rubbish their own manufacturers and (some, at least) are happy enough to rubbish others. The result is that its easy to find negative press when you google the likes of Clifton planes, which is a shame. 

I was wondering whether anyone had followed through and contacted Clico and alerted them to some of the suggestions made in this thread. I had a look at their site - which didn't really jump out as a woodwork tool manufacturer site although maybe it isn't as bad as some have suggested. It mentions that they are planning new tools, but that seems to be a while ago. 

Perhaps an example of a good British tool maker site is this this one http://www.bulldogtools.co.uk/ Although I have no idea how they are doing as a company. These folk make great (indestuctable) hand forged spades etc. I really like the way they incorportate a video explaining why ther tools are unique - and i believe them, my spade has moved mountains! Clico could do the same. I think the main thing is getting that immediate link when you google Clifton planes, like Bulldog have done.

I really wish Clico all the best. I've enjoyed using my Clifton tools hugely. I'd like to buy some more - if they make a block plane, I'll be first in line.

Cheers

Richard


----------



## Peter Sefton

Mick Hudson from Clifton has shown me a prototype Block plane at one of my Open days and it looks like a winner, not sure if its going into production but I do hope so, and that we have a more American attitude to our British made goods I know I have been to ready to believe over hyped Marketing and less inclined to go with honest English engineers. Let’s hope after the Olympics we can put the Great back into Britain!


----------



## jimi43

Tom K":2xjqmqae said:


> How did a thread berating Axi for dropping Clifton turn into the end for Clico? Who may well be jogging along quite nicely selling through other outlets. :?



Hi Tom

I think the overriding theme coming across loud and clear is that the vast majority of British woodworkers DO care enough about Clifton to want them to survive...and not just jog along but bloom! 

We care simply because we are proud. We are not as openly proud as some countries :lol: but we are none the less.

Patriotism isn't just flags, dancing girls and ra ra you know. It's support in subtle ways....and I think if Clifton haven't been told about this thread by one of their outlets by now, then they blinkin' well should have been. If they choose to ignore the feedback then there is nothing more their customers can do.

Axminster are listening to their customers to stay in business....and their frank and honest statement says why they are dropping lines with falling sales.

I don't know what forces are contributing to this fall...I can only speculate but I do hope they fix it in time.

Jim


----------



## MIGNAL

Peter Sefton":pv2n6sys said:


> Mick Hudson from Clifton has shown me a prototype Block plane at one of my Open days and it looks like a winner, not sure if its going into production but I do hope so, and that we have a more American attitude to our British made goods I know I have been to ready to believe over hyped Marketing and less inclined to go with honest English engineers. Let’s hope after the Olympics we can put the Great back into Britain!



That prototype Block plane has been around for a few years. You will find posts on this forum that mention it but as yet it's not been in production. Actually I don't understand why Clifton haven't produced 3 Block planes - the standard, low angle and the 102 or Apron size. LN and Veritas have, so I presume that those two manufacturers thought it worthwhile.


----------



## Scouse

jimi43":15s4x6v8 said:


> Tom K":15s4x6v8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did a thread berating Axi for dropping Clifton turn into the end for Clico? Who may well be jogging along quite nicely selling through other outlets. :?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the overriding theme coming across loud and clear is that the vast majority of British woodworkers DO care enough about Clifton to want them to survive
Click to expand...


Surely that's HMV syndrome; everyone is upset and outraged at the demise of HMV, a great old British company, but these are the same people who bought all their Christmas DVD's from Amazon! If the vast majority of British woodworkers care about Clifton, why do so many on here extol the virtues of Quangsheng and cry over the loss of British craftsmanship? The same applies as to why Axminster can't shift stock in the same way as they clearly do with L/N.

It's not Axminster's fault if Clifton won't help themselves. They are in a unique promotional position, being a toolmaker in the most famous steel making city in the world, they're almost invisible when their competitors are everywhere.

I'm as proud as anyone to be British and I hope, for the sake of the skilled workers, that Clifton will be ok and that that the incompetent management gets a wake up call from Axminster. I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Scouse":27yxm2lq said:


> jimi43":27yxm2lq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom K":27yxm2lq said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did a thread berating Axi for dropping Clifton turn into the end for Clico? Who may well be jogging along quite nicely selling through other outlets. :?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the overriding theme coming across loud and clear is that the vast majority of British woodworkers DO care enough about Clifton to want them to survive
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Surely that's HMV syndrome; everyone is upset and outraged at the demise of HMV, a great old British company, but these are the same people who bought all their Christmas DVD's from Amazon! If the vast majority of British woodworkers care about Clifton, why do so many on here extol the virtues of Quangsheng and cry over the loss of British craftsmanship? The same applies as to why Axminster can't shift stock in the same way as they clearly do with L/N.
> 
> It's not Axminster's fault if Clifton won't help themselves. They are in a unique promotional position, being a toolmaker in the most famous steel making city in the world, they're almost invisible when their competitors are everywhere.
> 
> I'm as proud as anyone to be British and I hope, for the sake of the skilled workers, that Clifton will be ok and that that the incompetent management gets a wake up call from Axminster. I'm not holding my breath.
Click to expand...



I'm not sure I'd be quite so quick to describe Clico's management as 'incompetent'. Their products are very good, they are managing to survive in a high tax, high energy cost environment with a relatively labour intensive business, and their service to people contacting them with problems of whatever sort has been reported as very helpful by people posting on this forum. So they're doing some things right.

However, you have your criticisms. So how would you advise Clico to improve their marketing? If you were looking to buy a new plane, what would make you want to buy a Cfifton?


----------



## Paul Chapman

Peter Sefton":3v96i5uo said:


> Mick Hudson from Clifton has shown me a prototype Block plane at one of my Open days and it looks like a winner, not sure if its going into production but I do hope so,



That prototype Clifton block plane is a real cracker. It's been around a long time and I've handled it a few times. Feels lovely in the hand - really tactile. I think Mike Hudson shares our frustration that it's not yet in production.

When they do make it, I've told Mike that I want the first one  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## grinder

Hi my name is Geoff I work for Clico who manufacture Clifton planes. I think it is sad that people start these rumours without giving it any thought of the damage that may be caused. I assemble every bench plane that leaves the factory and I hope this stops the rumours thanks


----------



## Scouse

Cheshirechappie":36e0dnpg said:


> I'm not sure I'd be quite so quick to describe Clico's management as 'incompetent'. Their products are very good, they are managing to survive in a high tax, high energy cost environment with a relatively labour intensive business, and their service to people contacting them with problems of whatever sort has been reported as very helpful by people posting on this forum. So they're doing some things right.



Their products and customer service are good due to the skills of the metal workers and CS representatives, not effective management.

You hit the nail on the head when you say 'managing to survive', hardly a ringing endorsement of a successful forward looking company.

As for what I'd do, I would PROMOTE! I did a lot of research before I bought my planes, and the lack of access to any meaningful information on Clifton put me off. An indifferent review from Chris Schwarz and a 'How It's Made' documentary by an AMERICAN company is not enough if they want to do better than just 'survive' in a market against North American big hitters. 

They have valuable unique selling points which they just disregard. And it costs them money; I would have rather spent my money on Cliftons, but a couple of general pages on a site and not even 'Clifton.com' but hidden within Clico's domain and half ar*ed when you find it (reversed photograph??? Very professional looking...). 

Google Clifton planes and they are 9th on the list. Why are they not first with their own domain name? Schwarz's bad review is the first hit on Google. Why have they not tried to counter this? A reply? Rebuttal? Send him another plane?

Any other Youtube videos? Demonstrations? Explanations of the range? Explaining why they are better? It's cheap advertising, thats why L/N and Veritas do it. Why not Clifton?

If I can see this, and I just make violins, why can't they? Surely it's very basic stuff. They may as well just give potential customers L/N's phone number.

Yeah, the management are really great.


----------



## Racers

grinder":1lz9n5gb said:


> Hi my name is Geoff I work for Clico who manufacture Clifton planes. I think it is sad that people start these rumours without giving it any thought of the damage that may be caused. I assemble every bench plane that leaves the factory and I hope this stops the rumours thanks




Hi, Geoff

Welcome to the forum.

The main point of this thread seems to me about the advertising of Clifton planes or rather the lack of it.
Can you communicate with the boses and get some more Youtube videos etc out there showing just how good your planes are.

A google search comes up 979,000 hits with this page first http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSch ... ifton1.asp which doesn't show your planes in a good light. 

Lie Neilsen comes up with 1,800,000 hits Veritas Planes 1,720,000.

Pete


----------



## jimi43

I think this is the crux of the matter.

Geoff...with all due respect to your wonderful workmanship....absolutely nobody has anything other than the deepest regard for the product. And there is little in this thread which will do anything other than promote Clifton in a good light...indeed...most comments are extremely positive.

In the viral world we live in now...any promotion on a forum is a massive boost to reputation and ultimately sales.

The statement by Axminster was clear and honest as to the reason for their dropping the Clifton products. Falling sales.

This is not a rumour...this is a fact.

The healthy discussion of this dreadful news should wake up the management at your company and take action accordingly.

It is worrying that you were the first to make a statement and yet we have heard nothing at all officially from Clifton as to this news. Renowned suppliers have made very positive comments on here and they should be applauded but leaving news of this magnitude without intelligent debate is both unhealthy and blinkered.

I have found the UKW members a friendly and passionate bunch and their concern is genuine my friend.

I would definitely take Pete's advice and make management aware of the concern of the forum....as this amounts to a very large and valid cross section of their customer base.

Thanks again for taking the time to post.

Jim


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Scouse":yiytuiis said:


> Cheshirechappie":yiytuiis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I'd be quite so quick to describe Clico's management as 'incompetent'. Their products are very good, they are managing to survive in a high tax, high energy cost environment with a relatively labour intensive business, and their service to people contacting them with problems of whatever sort has been reported as very helpful by people posting on this forum. So they're doing some things right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their products and customer service are good due to the skills of the metal workers and CS representatives, not effective management.
> 
> You hit the nail on the head when you say 'managing to survive', hardly a ringing endorsement of a successful forward looking company.
> 
> As for what I'd do, I would PROMOTE! I did a lot of research before I bought my planes, and the lack of access to any meaningful information on Clifton put me off. An indifferent review from Chris Schwarz and a 'How It's Made' documentary by an AMERICAN company is not enough if they want to do better than just 'survive' in a market against North American big hitters.
> 
> They have valuable unique selling points which they just disregard. And it costs them money; I would have rather spent my money on Cliftons, but a couple of general pages on a site and not even 'Clifton.com' but hidden within Clico's domain and half ar*ed when you find it (reversed photograph??? Very professional looking...).
> 
> Google Clifton planes and they are 9th on the list. Why are they not first with their own domain name? Schwarz's bad review is the first hit on Google. Why have they not tried to counter this? A reply? Rebuttal? Send him another plane?
> 
> Any other Youtube videos? Demonstrations? Explanations of the range? Explaining why they are better? It's cheap advertising, thats why L/N and Veritas do it. Why not Clifton?
> 
> If I can see this, and I just make violins, why can't they? Surely it's very basic stuff. They may as well just give potential customers L/N's phone number.
> 
> Yeah, the management are really great.
Click to expand...



Well, that's a bit of a rant, but it didn't really answer the question I asked.

How would you advise Clico to improve their marketing? What would make you want to buy a Clifton if you were in the market for a new plane?


----------



## Jacob

Cheshirechappie":39dycauh said:


> .....
> How would you advise Clico to improve their marketing?


Correct the quality control issues as decribed by Schwarzy in Pete Ms link above, and publicise the fact


> What would make you want to buy a Clifton if you were in the market for a new plane?


Not seeing reviews like Schwarzy's. He gave better reviews to the Stanley SW no4 - and I bought one. Clifton planes are bloody expensive and every single one has to be very good.
Also they are a bit 'retro' which isn't for everybody. Too much emphasis on style? All the other contenders claim (rightly or wrongly) to be innovative in one way or another.


----------



## Paul Chapman

Jacob":1vs61b25 said:


> Cheshirechappie":1vs61b25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> How would you advise Clico to improve their marketing?
> 
> 
> 
> Correct the quality control issues as decribed by Schwarzy in Pete Ms link above, and publicise the fact
Click to expand...


That review by Chris Schwarz is ancient history - it dates back to 2004 and any quality control issues have long been corrected.

I have five Clifton bench planes, two shoulder planes and one spokeshave and they are all perfect.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## CHJ

Paul Chapman":3bxywn44 said:


> .....That review by Chris Schwarz is ancient history - it dates back to 2004 and any quality control issues have long been corrected....




But unfortunately it comes top in an Internet search because it has been the subject of many references.
Such as here

Until there is enough positive information published in prominent locations or a well presented company web site that provides a plethora of links for the web bots to catalogue they are not going to get positive exposure to first time searchers looking for Internet information.

Typing Clifton into a search engine needs to show Clifton Planes high up on the list, and that list to start off with positive quality and information links. 

Just like typing in Axminster

Or daft as it seams Hobby Turner.


----------



## CHJ

Out of interest, just did a visitor traffic check on my hobby site, It has no public exposure other than on two or three forum site links.

This is a typical monthly traffic record.




Now unless my maths are very astray that's something in the order of a different visitor every 8 mins. during an average 8hr 7 day week.
Now if it was a commercial site and just 10% of those visitors made a purchase I could have a bit more pocket money each month. :tool:


----------



## Scouse

I agree with what Jacob said. The fact that the review by Schwarz is 8 years old apparently is irrelevant. If I look for a Clifton plane on the web, how do I know they have improved their quality control? I don't because they are hiding, so I go to Veritas where I know quality control is good, or ebay where I know a used plane will need work, but costs £200 less. 

I wouldn't have said my post was a rant, every point was valid.



Cheshirechappie":15ju2c26 said:


> How would you advise Clico to improve their marketing?



Which bit of this did you not understand?



Scouse":15ju2c26 said:


> As for what I'd do, I would PROMOTE! I did a lot of research before I bought my planes, and the lack of access to any meaningful information on Clifton put me off. An indifferent review from Chris Schwarz and a 'How It's Made' documentary by an AMERICAN company is not enough if they want to do better than just 'survive' in a market against North American big hitters.
> 
> They have valuable unique selling points which they just disregard. And it costs them money; I would have rather spent my money on Cliftons, but a couple of general pages on a site and not even 'Clifton.com' but hidden within Clico's domain and half ar*ed when you find it (reversed photograph??? Very professional looking...).
> 
> Google Clifton planes and they are 9th on the list. Why are they not first with their own domain name? Schwarz's bad review is the first hit on Google. Why have they not tried to counter this? A reply? Rebuttal? Send him another plane?
> 
> Any other Youtube videos? Demonstrations? Explanations of the range? Explaining why they are better? It's cheap advertising, thats why L/N and Veritas do it. Why not Clifton?





Cheshirechappie":15ju2c26 said:


> What would make you want to buy a Clifton if you were in the market for a new plane?



Nothing at the moment. If I'm going to spend roughly £250 on a No5, for example, I do research, as do the many on this forum, as the mutltitude of 'which whatever should I buy' threads testify. I want to know what makes it worth the money, why it's an improvement over it's competitors, and whether the company will still be in existence in a years time if I need a part.


----------



## Scouse

BUT WAIT!!!

They must be listening, the picture on the website has been turned the right way round! =D> 

There's hope yet.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Well, to be honest Scouse, that wasn't really what I was trying to get at. Maybe I asked the question in the wrong way. You say they should promote their products more - well, yes, most people posting on this thread seem to agree - but HOW was what I was trying to get at.

I think CHJ made a valuable point with his comment about website hits. The problem for many SMEs is that there are many people out there saying they can build websites, but rather fewer that can do it well. Clico perhaps need to research the web marketing gurus of Sheffield (and perhaps further afield to find a really good one) to find a firm that will build and host a clear, well presented site, spend time with Clico staff to train them how to update it regularly, and apply the tricks of the trade to get the site higher up the Google searches. Then think out some clear, concise, informative text that gets across the quality and unique features of Clifton planes. Add some good photographs (or even video clips) of the manufacturing process and the tools in use, and links to all the retailers stocking Clifton, and they'll have an electronic brochure that can be kept up to date. Quality is the key, though - there are lots of website designers; not all are that good.

Then perhaps they need to promote the website. A campaign of simple, clear adverts in the woodworking mags (nothing fancy, quarter page would do) to get people to look at the site and get the hits count up should do. No need to be every issue of every mag, either. Just often enough to be noticed.

Clico already demonstrate regularly at woodworking shows, which is positive face-to-face marketing well worth continuing.

Quality control issues - as far as I know - have long ago been addressed. I have three Clifton shoulder planes, two of them from their early production, And I've never had a problem with them. I haven't had to do any fettling beyond honing the irons, and I wouldn't part with them for a big gold clock. I also have an early Clifton replacement iron and stay-set capiron in my try plane, and no quality control issues there, either. Perhaps Clifton could add a note to their site to the effect that if you have a problem, no matter how old your Clifton, get in touch and they'll do their best to sort it - that, after all, is what they do now if comments on this forum are anything to go by.

Beyond that, I don't think Clifton ought to do anything much else. No gimmicks. No expensive stunts. Just old fashioned high quality products backed by excellent after-sales service to customers. In the end, reputation will count more than Schwarz's slightly bigotted 'not-made-in-America' attempts to trash the product. The planes will be around a lot longer than Schwarz will, after all - in all probability, Clico will be around a lot longer than Schwarz will.

Finally - just a marketing thought for Scouse. You've called Clico's management incompetent - the entire staff of Clico and most of their business associates may well have made a mental note never to buy a violin made in Liverpool on the strength of that!


----------



## Sawyer

Totally agree with all of that, Cheshire Chappie!

_'Clico already demonstrate regularly at woodworking shows, which is positive face-to-face marketing well worth continuing.'_

This is one thing they certainly _are _good at. Chat to the demo staff, pick the tooks up, give them a test run on the timber provided... and you want to own one there and then!

Whatever the shortcomings of the marketing, when you get your hands on a Clifton plane, it speaks for itself.


----------



## paulm

Sawyer":aj6d1k8w said:


> Totally agree with all of that, Cheshire Chappie!
> 
> _'Clico already demonstrate regularly at woodworking shows, which is positive face-to-face marketing well worth continuing.'_
> 
> This is one thing they certainly _are _good at. Chat to the demo staff, pick the tooks up, give them a test run on the timber provided... and you want to own one there and then!
> 
> Whatever the shortcomings of the marketing, when you get your hands on a Clifton plane, it speaks for itself.



Exactly what I did  

Played with a Cliffie 5 1/2, and others, at a show, ordered a partial set of the anniversary versions, and promptly sold all of my Lie Neilsens :shock: :lol: 

The LN's were fine tools but the Cliftons just "spoke to me", beyond their functional excellence, must be the aesthetics and/or ergonomics I guess and they just felt "right" in use and in the hand.

Mick Hudson, Clifton's demonstrator at the shows, is very knowledgeable, hugely enthuisastic, and a great guy to have a chat to about planes, sharpening and loads of other stuff if you get the chance, a real enthusiast.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## CHJ

Cheshirechappie":qpogp3zt said:


> ......I think CHJ made a valuable point with his comment about website hits. ..



I'm a complete novice as far as web site design and modern marketing methods but taking a look at the Clico/Clifton site when following this thread the main thing that struck me when reading the various header pages was how out of date most of them were.
If product and development timescales are highlighted in the text or production problems highlighted because of floods then to see those comments still in place 3-4-5 years down the line and page revision dates likewise is not good. They belong in an ongoing blog not on an out of date section front page.

I wonder if it's the lack of appreciation of the difference in market for hand/craft tools and the 'professional' Clico market.

I personally don't own a Clifton, they would be far too good to wreck on the odd bit of wood mangling I do these days, but I am always impressed on the sheer weight and feel and standard of finish of any I have handled at the various shows.


----------



## iNewbie

Why do they not have any video of Mr.Hudson on their website. Any type of self-promotion (in a good light) is worth its weight-in-gold. Both LN and Veritas do. Their site offers a Worldwide audience.


----------



## Scouse

Cheshirechappie":3ixdn0zx said:


> Clico perhaps need to research the web marketing gurus of Sheffield (and perhaps further afield to find a really good one) to find a firm that will build and host a clear, well presented site, spend time with Clico staff to train them how to update it regularly, and apply the tricks of the trade to get the site higher up the Google searches. Then think out some clear, concise, informative text that gets across the quality and unique features of Clifton planes. Add some good photographs (or even video clips) of the manufacturing process and the tools in use, and links to all the retailers stocking Clifton, and they'll have an electronic brochure that can be kept up to date. Quality is the key, though - there are lots of website designers; not all are that good.
> 
> Then perhaps they need to promote the website. A campaign of simple, clear adverts in the woodworking mags (nothing fancy, quarter page would do) to get people to look at the site and get the hits count up should do. No need to be every issue of every mag, either. Just often enough to be noticed.
> 
> Clico already demonstrate regularly at woodworking shows, which is positive face-to-face marketing well worth continuing.
> 
> Quality control issues - as far as I know - have long ago been addressed. I have three Clifton shoulder planes, two of them from their early production, And I've never had a problem with them. I haven't had to do any fettling beyond honing the irons, and I wouldn't part with them for a big gold clock. I also have an early Clifton replacement iron and stay-set capiron in my try plane, and no quality control issues there, either. Perhaps Clifton could add a note to their site to the effect that if you have a problem, no matter how old your Clifton, get in touch and they'll do their best to sort it - that, after all, is what they do now if comments on this forum are anything to go by.
> 
> Beyond that, I don't think Clifton ought to do anything much else. No gimmicks. No expensive stunts. In the end, reputation will count more than Schwarz's slightly bigotted 'not-made-in-America' attempts to trash the product. The planes will be around a lot longer than Schwarz will, after all - in all probability, Clico will be around a lot longer than Schwarz will.



That's all they need, clear, detailed, fresh and kept up to date with new content, video, pictures etc regularly added. If a couple of blokes on a forum can see that why can't the management? 

I don't think that 'Just old fashioned high quality products backed by excellent after-sales service to customers.' is enough though in a massive global market; it's important, yes but bells and whistles pull 'em in. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3nojb-gFH4

It's just a bloke making a knife, but it gives the impression of more, helps to create a brand and if even if a tiny fraction of the people who view his video buy a tool, it's worth the bit of effort and expense. 

As to your final marketing thought, thanks for the concern, but I'll be ok; although if they can't take criticism, however truthful and robust (and bear in mind they deserve it; the biggest outlet for hand tools in the country just dropped them for lack of sales), intended at shaking them out of a deep, expensive snooze then maybe I should reconsider and add a few more adjectives! I give credit where it's due, and if I'm a bit brusque, so be it, but people's jobs depend on them and the celebration of mediocrity which left British industry unable to compete is present here. 

Credit to them though, as I said above, the website has been updated in the last day or so. =D>


----------



## bobbybirds

Well I think this thread may actually be helping Clifton with their marketing woes. I have never considered one but now I actually want to go out and find a nice #4 and see what they are all about! I have to admit, looking at the pictures, I love the the way they look... Even more than the LN's. 

Now I just have to find a place in Canada where I can get one. Heck, maybe I can find someone to work out an interesting tool trade!


----------



## jimi43

bobbybirds":2l6bckkk said:


> Well I think this thread may actually be helping Clifton with their marketing woes. I have never considered one but now I actually want to go out and find a nice #4 and see what they are all about! I have to admit, looking at the pictures, I love the the way they look... Even more than the LN's.
> 
> Now I just have to find a place in Canada where I can get one. Heck, maybe I can find someone to work out an interesting tool trade!



There ya go! Exactly what I'm talking about!

Thanks BB (mkII)!

Jim


----------



## RichardL

Nice to see Clifton getting good press here. I still cant help feel there is a deeper issue that is summed up quite well here http://ukmade.wordpress.com/about/
So, while we can make valid suggestions about Clico marketing their wares, unless locals make a concious effort to support them, they could go the same way as many, many other UK manufacturers. Fortunately, all their eggs aren't in one basket and they seem to supply on another level to other industries.


----------



## bobbybirds

RichardL":1w574apy said:


> Nice to see Clifton getting good press here. I still cant help feel there is a deeper issue that is summed up quite well here http://ukmade.wordpress.com/about/
> So, while we can make valid suggestions about Clico marketing their wares, unless locals make a concious effort to support them, they could go the same way as many, many other UK manufacturers. Fortunately, all their eggs aren't in one basket and they seem to supply on another level to other industries.



I feel this is true. Sadly, we as consumers are what drives a companies direction, and while we demand quality of our own local manufacturers, we support lesser expensive foreign products that are produced by companies who basically steal technology and manufacturer in countries that use and abuse their employees and workers, taking advantage of their lot in life so we can save a bit of money. I know all the arguments that go for and against this capitalistic ideal, but in the end, I feel more comfortable dealing with companies who recognize fair treatment of workers and who do more for our local economy as well as our neighbouring economies that play by those same rules.

How can people complain about the local manufacturers that they do not even pretend to support is a bit beyond me, but it is what it is. By continuing down the path we are going, we are all going to end up in the same trap of making less money, only being able to afford the cheap offshore options, in turn driving our local economies into the tank, in turn reinforcing our reliance of cheap offshore options, etc, etc, etc.. Any wonder why the middle class is shrinking at a massive rate? I wish more people could realize this...


----------



## matthewwh

iNewbie":1yekkgad said:


> Why do they not have any video of Mr.Hudson on their website. Any type of self-promotion (in a good light) is worth its weight-in-gold. Both LN and Veritas do. Their site offers a Worldwide audience.



I suspect that they will be adding video etc in due course. 

Bearing in mind that there was no Clico website at all six months ago, I think they have already made remarkable headway and demonstrated a commitment to making public relations a high priority for management.

In all fairness, they have had several very unlucky episodes in the past few years. The factory is right next to the river Don - hence Burton Weir Works. During the Sheffield floods a couple of years ago the whole factory filled with eight feet of rusty water - all stock and semi-finished work gone overnight, every piece of machinery needed a full overhaul (including some Victorian ones that you can't just order parts for) and then they had to start again from scratch.

Back when they first started out, the foundry that cast the first production run delivered a batch of substandard castings and then promptly went bust. This was a couple of weeks before a big US trade show so they had no choice but to take what they had and make the best of it. To add insult to injury Clifton's casting patterns disappeared with the rest of the seized equipment and the whole lot had to be re-made before they could start afresh with a new foundry (who did a far superior job and still make the castings to this day). It was one of these 'first batch' planes that the now notorious Chris Schwartz review was based upon. Fair play to Chris he can only comment upon what he sees at the time, but a lot changes in a decade and an up to date review that reflects what Clifton have been making for the other 9-1/2 years of their existence is now long overdue. 

In view of all of this they have done bloody well to keep going, but thanks to an awful lot of hard work and a growing number of fiercely loyal users who get the whole 'real engineering vs consumer manufacturing' thing, I believe they have turned a corner and we can all look forward to a much brighter future.


----------



## xy mosian

I don't own a Clifton Plane. It would be nice to see, amongst all these very positive comments, a well thought out review by a user. Posting on here would be a good start perhaps.
xy


----------



## Paul Chapman

Chris Knight did a brief review of the Clifton #3 here viewtopic.php?t=1381 (it's in the Hand Tool Review links).

I have a Clifton #3 as well - a really great plane  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Jacob

I've got a Record 3. Also brilliant. Although smaller the bits aren't all scaled down so you get a sturdy but little plane which cuts really well.
My tip for Clifton - make a 5 1/2 with a solid frog/body and adjustable mouth, like the Stanley SW 4. It's the plane everybody wants, even if they don't know it yet!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Being a 5 1/2 lover, that seems a good idea to me.


----------



## Scouse

matthewwh":3sevxx7n said:


> In all fairness, they have had several very unlucky episodes in the past few years. The factory is right next to the river Don - hence Burton Weir Works. During the Sheffield floods a couple of years ago the whole factory filled with eight feet of rusty water - all stock and semi-finished work gone overnight, every piece of machinery needed a full overhaul (including some Victorian ones that you can't just order parts for) and then they had to start again from scratch.
> 
> Back when they first started out, the foundry that cast the first production run delivered a batch of substandard castings and then promptly went bust. This was a couple of weeks before a big US trade show so they had no choice but to take what they had and make the best of it. To add insult to injury Clifton's casting patterns disappeared with the rest of the seized equipment and the whole lot had to be re-made before they could start afresh with a new foundry (who did a far superior job and still make the castings to this day). It was one of these 'first batch' planes that the now notorious Chris Schwartz review was based upon. Fair play to Chris he can only comment upon what he sees at the time, but a lot changes in a decade and an up to date review that reflects what Clifton have been making for the other 9-1/2 years of their existence is now long overdue.



Wow tough breaks and bad timing! 

I apologise for my harsh comments re: management, I guess they've had enough to contend with and done very well to still be in business at all. Lesson learned on my part! :-#


----------



## bobbybirds

I am actually getting quite excited about the prospect of buying a Clifton now! Way to go guys... My lovely bride thought I was FINALLY done with major handtool purchasing, and now you have presented me with a new dog to chase!

matthewwh - So as a Canadian who wants to order a new No.4, is there any way for me to confirm whether or not I am buying new, currently manufactured Clifton's rather than old stock that was sub-standard? I know I can ask but often the person one talks with on the phone really has no real in depth knowledge on these things and you end up just getting the easy answer that you want to hear rather than the straight goods...


----------



## jimi43

bobbybirds":3t219ruw said:


> I am actually getting quite excited about the prospect of buying a Clifton now! Way to go guys... My lovely bride thought I was FINALLY done with major handtool purchasing, and now you have presented me with a new dog to chase!
> 
> matthewwh - So as a Canadian who wants to order a new No.4, is there any way for me to confirm whether or not I am buying new, currently manufactured Clifton's rather than old stock that was sub-standard? I know I can ask but often the person one talks with on the phone really has no real in depth knowledge on these things and you end up just getting the easy answer that you want to hear rather than the straight goods...



There ya go! Viral marketing...worth its weight in gold! :wink: 

Frankly...since not one person has said anything other than praise for Clifton planes and since this thread is already attracted more attention than any other on this part of the forum, I think this can only be good for Clifton. And they seem to be watching it otherwise who changed the shop window? :lol: 

I have no problems in speaking on behalf of Matthew, BB.....to preserve his modesty you understand...but in all my dealings with him he has been a top notch supplier and if I were on the lookout for any tool...I would check if WSH has it first. You can deal with them without hesitation.

As for us Brits not being patriotic...balderdash!!! I've said it once but I'll say it again...we don't wave flags about and make fools of ourselves but we do love our country. But just because someone doesn't buy a product made in the UK over another doesn't make them unpatriotic!

I challenge anyone who takes this stand to say they always buy British...that their whole house has British goods in it and the car they drive is totally made in Britain with British parts. In fact wait...if I do get a response you lose straight away, cos you sure as hell are not typing on a British made computer! 8) 

We live in a global world, trading globally. It's impossible for it to be any other way. To do so would really be our downfall.

The pound is weak at the moment...now's the time for our old buddies in the Colonies to buy British...cheap as chips! Let's get the balance of trade flowing the other way for once.

So...that's my 2p worth...now I'm off to lunch with Kelly Brook! :mrgreen: 

God...don'tcha just love utopia!

Jim


----------



## Fromey

Scouse":2pw2xax6 said:


> Wow tough breaks and bad timing!
> 
> I apologise for my harsh comments re: management, I guess they've had enough to contend with and done very well to still be in business at all. Lesson learned on my part! :-#



Well played sir. =D>


----------



## bobbybirds

jimi43":ep8bb2p9 said:


> As for us Brits not being patriotic...balderdash!!! I've said it once but I'll say it again...we don't wave flags about and make fools of ourselves but we do love our country. But just because someone doesn't buy a product made in the UK over another doesn't make them unpatriotic!
> 
> I challenge anyone who takes this stand to say they always buy British...that their whole house has British goods in it and the car they drive is totally made in Britain with British parts. In fact wait...if I do get a response you lose straight away, cos you sure as hell are not typing on a British made computer! 8)
> 
> We live in a global world, trading globally. It's impossible for it to be any other way. To do so would really be our downfall.
> 
> The pound is weak at the moment...now's the time for our old buddies in the Colonies to buy British...cheap as chips! Let's get the balance of trade flowing the other way for once.
> 
> So...that's my 2p worth...now I'm off to lunch with Kelly Brook! :mrgreen:
> 
> God...don'tcha just love utopia!
> 
> Jim



I hear you 100% and let me first say, I am not at all questioning the patriotism of Brits whatsoever! Us Canadians owe a whole lot to our British heritage, myself included. I was speaking more to the thought that any and all of us around the globe would do well by trying to purchase as much locally produced (to our individual areas) goods as possible when the options are there. 

I totally agree that we live in a global economy, but look at that global economy and see who is reaping the benefits and who is falling by the side of the road. We are being conditioned to accept that cheaper is better and that makes it easier for the man (ie big business rather than smaller specialized companies) to convince us that we can get cheaper by moving production overseas where they can take advantage of the virtual non-existence of fair worker treatment, environmental laws, and corrupt patent laws. It is a vicious circle where that local manufacturing cannot compete with these issues so they just close or get on board and move, in turn forcing those now unemployed and/or lower wage earning people to rely on the big business that killed their jobs.

Of course there is no easy, quick fix for this, but big business only functions with our spending habits, so unless we are willing to start changing them as a whole, it is only going to get worse. We tend to think that it is just the way it is and there is nothing one can do about it, or even have come to believe that it is good for us, but that is definitely not so IMHO. 

Like I said, it isn't going to change anytime soon, but it will never change if people don't make the effort, as painful as it might be. Seeing some of the support here for Clifton though is exactly the kind of thing that is needed and I applaud that for sure! Sadly though, I see way more threads where someone comes looking for advice on buying new hand tool recommendations (not speaking of the used tool recommendations as that is different because that does tend to support your neighbours directly at the source) and the vast majority of people not only suggest buying the Chinese knock offs, but make a person feel stupid for not buying them! They seem to try and make them feel as if our local manufacturers are just a bunch of rip off artists and that by supporting them you are wasting your money! It makes me sad. (note that I am not speaking of this forum specifically, but in general. Our Canadian and US based forums are no different!) 

Anyways, please do not interpret this as having no British love! Quite the opposite actually... I want to see all of my ancestors have a good shot at a quality life of fulfillment and enjoyment, and woodworking definitely helps! I just want to enjoy some of your British tools now and hope they will be there for many years to come!


----------



## iNewbie

jimi43":k7rgc4qf said:


> So...that's my 2p worth...now I'm off to lunch with Kelly Brook! :mrgreen:



Ask her to get her clifton's out, for the lads. :mrgreen:


----------



## Jacob

So what is the patriotic position with respect to Stanley? Are they British? 
I notice the literature with my recent plane purchase refers back to Belgium but there was a reference somewhere to the new Stanleys being developed by Brits. Are they evil foreigners or what?


----------



## bobbybirds

Jacob":2pnekukg said:


> So what is the patriotic position with respect to Stanley? Are they British?
> I notice the literature with my recent plane purchase refers back to Belgium but there was a reference somewhere to the new Stanleys being developed by Brits. Are they evil foreigners or what?


I am referring to support of local manufacturing more than locally owned or bred. My point being your local population will have more money to inject into your local economy if all your money is not being sent and horded overseas.

Look, there is no denying that we are all guilty of it. Guilty may not be the right word for it as much as we are forced to do it, but when given a choice I will always prefer to deal locally first, or if I choose to go outside local,I will always try to deal with those that play fair rather than with those with shady albeit legal (grey area) business practices at the expense of everyone else...


----------



## MIGNAL

But you are located in Canada, yet Clifton are in Sheffield UK?  Man speaks with forked tongue.


----------



## bobbybirds

MIGNAL":1q48g654 said:


> But you are located in Canada, yet Clifton are in Sheffield UK?  Man speaks with forked tongue.




Ahhh but I covered my butt with the final part of my previous comment... Ha!  



bobbybirds":1q48g654 said:


> Look, there is no denying that we are all guilty of it. Guilty may not be the right word for it as much as we are forced to do it, but when given a choice I will always prefer to deal locally first, or *if I choose to go outside local,I will always try to deal with those that play fair rather than with those with shady albeit legal (grey area) business practices at the expense of everyone else...*


----------



## bobbybirds

Oh, and I thought I would point out to anyone who may not be aware, but matthewwh from WSH seems like a great and professional seller! I sent him a quick PM earlier regarding the purchase of a Clifton No.4 and what is involved with the taxes and shipping etc and he got back to me in no time flat! He broke it all down to me and explained the extra precautions they take with international shipping etc, the warranty of the plane, the cost difference due to local taxes not having to be collected on international orders, shipping options and costs, and even an approximate cost conversion from British to Canadian dollars. Now being from Canada I am used to some pretty stellar service via Lee Valley Tools, but just my initial dealings indicate to me that they (he) also understands customer service... Thumbs up here!

Thanks for the referral jimi43!


----------



## Fromey

Yep, that's pretty standard for WSH.



bobbybirds":p92tm3c1 said:


> Oh, and I thought I would point out to anyone who may not be aware, but matthewwh from WSH seems like a great and professional seller! I sent him a quick PM earlier regarding the purchase of a Clifton No.4 and what is involved with the taxes and shipping etc and he got back to me in no time flat! He broke it all down to me and explained the extra precautions they take with international shipping etc, the warranty of the plane, the cost difference due to local taxes not having to be collected on international orders, shipping options and costs, and even an approximate cost conversion from British to Canadian dollars. Now being from Canada I am used to some pretty stellar service via Lee Valley Tools, but just my initial dealings indicate to me that they (he) also understands customer service... Thumbs up here!
> 
> Thanks for the referral jimi43!


----------



## Jacob

Perhaps Matthew can answer my Stanley question (above) and tell us why he doesn't stock them?
PS and he doesn't stock a number of other basic essentials such as M Norton oil stones. Why not?


----------



## matthewwh

bobbybirds":1n20uouf said:


> is there any way for me to confirm whether or not I am buying new, currently manufactured Clifton's rather than old stock that was sub-standard?



The first batch was over ten years ago, perhaps a dozen of each size, so they are long gone now. Knowing Alan's predisposition for standards, I would be surprised if any remaining stock wasn't scrapped as soon as the new castings came through. 

Thanks to 'the review' we used to get a lot of - 'can you just check it before you send it?' so we did, all of them, every single plane we sold for five years straight. We have now stopped checking them as we never found anything to worry about - there comes a point where you just have to accept that any prior issues have been satisfactorily resolved. The only exception now are export orders, for which all products get an extra look over as it is trickier to deal with returns.

Jacob,

I believe the new Stanleys bodies are made in Mexico and the blades are made in Sheffield, global brand, global manufacturing, no idea about the nationality of the design team or the Belgian connection - centralised customer services for Europe perhaps? I did consider stocking them and wouldn't necessarily rule it out for the future, but as with so many other products its a question of allocating limited investment/time/marketing resources.


----------



## iNewbie

A tool in the USA for $100 I can usually expect to pay £100 for it by the time it gets here. How is it Clifton's are cheaper in the USA? What am I missing - apart from some grey-matter!

The Best Things.

I.e: #5 in USA = £194
................UK = £262


----------



## Vann

When I imported Cliftons (2 off + an iron + 2 cap-irons) I didn't have to pay VAT (20%, as I'm outside the EUC). What's more, because each purchase was under $NZ500, I didn't have to pay NZ's GST (15%). And both WH and CHT were very helpful with finding the cheapest shipping.

But that doesn't really answer your question (sorry).

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Jake

iNewbie":3k78qb1w said:


> A tool in the USA for $100 I can usually expect to pay £100 for it by the time it gets here. How is it Clifton's are cheaper in the USA? What am I missing - apart from some grey-matter!
> 
> The Best Things.
> 
> I.e: #5 in USA = £194
> ................UK = £262



Priced against the competition, rather than cost of production/margin.

Edit: On a generous view they are trying to crack the market in the states, or someone over there has overstocked.


----------



## Sawyer

Well, I've just supported Clifton in the best way possible: by buying one. My third.

A 420 - and very good it is too. Straight out of the box.


----------



## RichardL

MIGNAL":p9ke9d86 said:


> But you are located in Canada, yet Clifton are in Sheffield UK?  Man speaks with forked tongue.


Well, I emigrated to New Zealand with my parents quite a few years ago so I can hardly call Sheffield local either now. I buy locally made (NZ) stuff where possible but also tend to support UK made due to my connections. I think for me the choice is related to dealing with companies who stay true to their roots. Since I was a kid, MADE IN ENGLAND stamped on something from toys to tools to telescopes (another hobby) to all sorts of things, stood for something. I remember being very proud of my Record tool collection in younger days but if you buy a Record vice for example nowadays, well, I don't need to raise that here I'm sure, thanks to our friends at Irwin :twisted: . Its the same with many things that end up moving to a cheaper manufacturing area and the same applies over here. Even worse, once the manufacturing has moved off-shore, the price eventually goes back up to close to the original, so it's the middle-man/retailer making the bucks, the consumer doesn't win and gets an inferior product (e.g. Dr Martens). It really irritates when the good name of a older company or historical location is used to sell rubbish. The name of Sheffield is used in such a way with several lines.

Sorry about the rant, it just baffles me why companies that make quality products don't get the support they deserve (although Clico are doing OK here, and rightly so). I think Kinky Boots (the movie  ) made some very true comments when the chap tried to get the retailer to sell his brogues that would last a lifetime...
Retailer: "Imported from Slovakia. Wanna know how much?
Manufacturer: "A Price's shoe will last a man a lifetime. Poor sod that buys these will be back in ten months for new ones. 
Retailer: I know. And isn't that great?"

I bought a locally made jacket a few weeks ago. It has, stitched into the lining, proudly made by Donna. Its well made, local, and the company has stayed true to its advertising and origins. Good for them!! I feel that Cliftons are similar to this (even if a plane isn't signed personally) it's genuine, not a knock off.

Cheers
R


----------



## matthewwh

The Clifton factory is the old Record factory, same guys, same machines, same building. 

The only things that have gone are the Record brand and all the cost saving measures.


----------



## Scouse

matthewwh":11j138nh said:


> The Clifton factory is the old Record factory, same guys, same machines, same building.



Really? I never knew that. I guess there would be issues in using that information in promotional material with the 'Record' name still in use, but it does give an interesting back story, and a well respected historical lineage.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Scouse":1jtm4z3v said:


> matthewwh":1jtm4z3v said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Clifton factory is the old Record factory, same guys, same machines, same building.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I never knew that. I guess there would be issues in using that information in promotional material with the 'Record' name still in use, but it does give an interesting back story, and a well respected historical lineage.
Click to expand...



I think it goes back even further than that. Record (C & J Hampton) bought out the Preston company in about 1932, so the family resemblance between Clifton shoulder planes and Preston ones is perfectly legitimate. The original Record factory was elsewhere in Sheffield, though, I think - and no longer exists.

Edit to add - I think Clico's home (Burton Weir Works) was originally the William Ridgway works. Record and Ridgeway were amalgamated sometime in the 1980s, I think.

A bit of background reading - http://www.getwoodworking.com/news/arti ... -oaks/917/


----------



## Vann

matthewwh":e1u2rsx4 said:


> The Clifton factory is the old Record factory, same guys, same machines, same building.


I'm not sure that's correct.



Cheshirechappie":e1u2rsx4 said:


> The original Record factory was elsewhere in Sheffield, though, I think - and no longer exists.


That's what I thought.

According to Andy King's article "From Mighty Oaks" http://www.getwoodworking.com/news/arti ... -oaks/917/
_"...In 1987, then, when the opportunity arose to acquire Morrisons, a Sheffield forging company, Clico bought into a very different set of skills to those used in the aircraft industry, ones that rely on traditional techniques that date back for generations.

*Morrisons’* Burton Weir works is split into two parts, one part specifically for the manufacture of the range of Clifton planes, the other for manufacturing augers, hollow mortise chisels and other wood cutting tools sold under the Clico and Morrisons brands."_

So it would appear that Clico manufacture their Clifton range at the old Morrisons plant - possibly using machinery ex-Record - although even that doesn't quite add up: Record ceased producing planes in UK ~2004, but Clico began making bench planes three years earlier (and shoulder planes some years before that). :duno:

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## MIGNAL

Started from Record Marples according to this:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... lanes.html


----------



## Vann

Peter Sefton":21bjsthv said:


> Mick Hudson from Clifton has shown me a prototype Block plane at one of my Open days and it looks like a winner, not sure if its going into production but I do hope so,





Paul Chapman":21bjsthv said:


> That prototype Clifton block plane is a real cracker. It's been around a long time and I've handled it a few times. Feels lovely in the hand - really tactile. I think Mike Hudson shares our frustration that it's not yet in production.






It looks like a No.9½ to me, with a wooden lever-cap - but I've only got this tiny photo to go by (sent to me by a fellow formite some years ago). Adjustable mouth; some adjustment to the cutting iron (hard to tell...).

Anyone know anymore about it?

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## iNewbie

matthewwh":1qhieckt said:


> The Clifton factory is the old Record factory, same guys, same machines, same building.
> 
> The only things that have gone are the Record brand and all the cost saving measures.



Doesn't allude to that on their website, Matthew.

Clifton Site FAQ


----------



## Paul Chapman

Vann":2cv774sa said:


> Anyone know anymore about it?



The one I've seen and handled is a low angle, #60 1/2 style. Mike Hudson has shown it to various people at shows to gauge their reaction - most of which seem to have been very positive as far as I can tell. I don't know whether the design has been finalised so any comments on what the production version will be like would be speculation.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## matthewwh

"Clico (Sheffield) Tooling Limited was established in 1983 as the result of a Management buy out from Record Ridgway Tools. Initially Clico acquired the machinery, personnel and design rights to a range of cutting tools for the Aerospace industry."

Ah - the building may have come from the Ridgeway side then, or been a separate deal. I stand corrected and will check with Clico next time I talk with them.


----------



## Vann

Paul Chapman":1uicbj1m said:


> The one I've seen and handled is a low angle, #60 1/2 style.


Low angle - that's even better!

I hope it has a 1⅜" iron (not the 1⅝" of some No.60½s). I found the Veritas LABP to be too bulky in my hand (and I have largish hands). Hmm... I could be in the market for one of those.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Vann

iNewbie":2gqu3f0h said:


> Doesn't allude to that on their website.
> 
> Clifton Site FAQ





clico FAQ":2gqu3f0h said:


> "In 1987 the Manager of the Record Plane Department was made redundant and Clico invited him to set up a unit manufacturing specialists Planes. The first item was the Clifton Multiplane (Record 405; Stanley 45)..."


Wow :shock: what a plane to start with :!: 

LV and L-N seem to have started with edge planes. LV have produced 5 models to date: bronze; iron RH; iron LH; stainless &; miniature. And I think L-N may have done more than one.

I wonder how many multi-planes Clifton sell in a year (I've seen the price :shock: )?

Also interesting that that was the year before the Record CS88 was launched. The CS88 also came out in British Racing Green.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

matthewwh":1rmbkxgi said:


> Ah - the building may have come from the Ridgeway side then, or been a separate deal. I stand corrected and will check with Clico next time I talk with them.



Record's most notable address, Parkway works in Sheffield, still stands and has an Irwin sign outside, according to streetview. Clico's current trading address is a rather nondescript looking contemporary light industrial unit. But Record have had at least 2 other adresses in Sheffield, and Clico may have other permises ?

I don't have any Clifton planes , but I did consider one when I wanted a #6. Instead I bought an old Record one off Ebay, which arrived with a very poor replacement Stanley blade, and a terrible cap iron that did not look like a Record part - looked like a thin bit of blue spring steel. So, I put a Clifton cutting iron and 2 piece cap iron in it . I bought them via Thomas Flinn, and for the price of asking nicely they threw in the new longer cap iron screw. The plane now works very well - leaves a glassy smooth surface on oak which does not seem to be inproved further by sanding or scraping. The most surprising thing is not that it does this when freshly sharpened - my other planes can do that - but it still leaves a good finish untill it is really rather blunt. I assume that the added rigidity must allow it to work better even when not razor sharp. The iron is now clearly the best part of the plane, and adding up the cost of the plane, postage and the irons, I just wonder if I shouldn't have stumped up for a new Clifton in the first place !


----------



## Max Power

I have several cliftons and lie nielsons and much prefer the irons in the cliftons. My next plane will be a clifton and my suggestion for the next addition to their line would be a really good vice


----------



## bugbear

Sheffield Tony":2hu3ubfk said:


> The most surprising thing is not that it does this when freshly sharpened - my other planes can do that - but it still leaves a good finish untill it is really rather blunt. I assume that the added rigidity must allow it to work better even when not razor sharp.



Interesting.

Joel (of Tools for working wood) has stated that the most remarkable property of infills is how well they work when the blade is not freshly sharpened.

Edit: I looked up the quote:

"The real test of infills and why they are treasured by a lot of craftsman is what happens to performance as the blade dulls (test it out and see)."

link to the article

BugBear


----------



## Peter Sefton

Max Power":3u4gsy38 said:


> I have several cliftons and lie nielsons and much prefer the irons in the cliftons. My next plane will be a clifton and my suggestion for the next addition to their line would be a really good vice



It would be interesting to see what other people think Clifton could or should be making, I have had some Dakota vices which luckily are guaranteed for life but would love to change them for a quality English made replacement.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Since Paramo have packed up, there does seem to be a bit of a gap in the market for a high quality face vice. Mind you, the tooling costs to produce one would be very significant; financial unviability may kill the idea if sales volume to justify the investment couldn't be guaranteed.

A couple of things Clico might consider are a plough plane, a rebate plane and a hand router. The old Record small plough (043?) seems to be a sought-after and well-regarded tool, so a design for something along those lines might go down well. Such tools would fit nicely into their existing range, and are not so dissimilar to current products that tooling costs would be prohibitive. I'm not sure where that would leave Clico regarding Irwin Record's product rights, though.

Edit to add - a high angle smoothing plane (say, 60 degrees) might be worth a punt. The only redesign would be the frog casting and possibly the cap-iron (so that it didn't block the plane's mouth).


----------



## dunbarhamlin

Would like to see a T5. 
A 043 would be nice, but price point may be difficult, with the more versatile Veritas small plough covering the same niche.
A relatively simple.unique offering, like perhaps a Lancashire pattern plane might be a good idea.


----------



## jimi43

I don't think that going back in time would do them justice for the future...much though I would love to see the Lancashire pattern plane resurrected - trust me on that one mate!

No...I think that their R&D is probably on the right track with modernisation...the same as the new Aston Martin is pure poetry but the old DBs are also wonderful....

Let's think about what is strong.

1) British reputation..."Made in England" has still an amazing amount of power overseas and at home. Look at the Union Flag in Cuba recently! I once made a cover for my Truly British VOX AC30 amp and a mate in the USA said if I ever wanted to start a business...make some more but put "Handmade in England" on it...with a Union flag! He would have a huge market for them!

2) They are built like brick watsits! Sell that!

3) The irons/cap irons are so much more accessible to the mass market...play and expand on that strength.

4) I am not sure about this last one but didn't the "Limited Editions" sell like hotcakes? Did you have any left Matthew? Was this a disaster?

But most of all...they need to take the brand and run with it and shout it from every magazine, internet blog, forum...anything viral they can think about and get the hype running. 

They make a beautiful product which I would buy...if I didn't already cover my needs with my infills. I would buy them over LN or Veritas.

I still think spreading the word is the key and with the greatest respect of those who stand there at shows and in the green fields of England...that is not the global market, it is invisible to the global market...and the global market is where it lies. BB (MkII) proved that! Have you placed your order yet mate!?

Jim


----------



## Vann

Cheshirechappie":2s83ry32 said:


> A couple of things Clico might consider are a plough plane, a rebate plane and a hand router. The old Record small plough (043?) seems to be a sought-after and well-regarded tool, so a design for something along those lines might go down well
> ...a high angle smoothing plane (say, 60 degrees) might be worth a punt. The only redesign would be the frog casting and possibly the cap-iron (so that it didn't block the plane's mouth).


L-N & LV have the hand router market well catered for, and it would take a lot to equal LVs skew rebate planes. 

But the only plough that comes to mind is LVs - and it's based on the Record 044 size, so there might well be an opening for a 043 alike.

Would there be a market for a 60 degree bench plane? L-N have 50° and 55° well covered. 

I like the idea of a T5 or 5¼ (or combination of the two).

My tuppence worth....

Cheers, Vann


----------



## mark w

A good pattern makers vice would be nice, I think Lee valley made them at one time which were really good quality, the Axminster version is not that good.


----------



## bugbear

mark w":37ieo9ii said:


> A good pattern makers vice would be nice, I think Lee valley made them at one time which were really good quality, the Axminster version is not that good.



Well, I can only presume that LV couldn't sell (enough of) the Tucker Vise, and many people have said the Taiwan copy "works ok".

I don't think that this is a market opportunity, and especially so for Clifton who are about precision, not gert slabs of cast iron

BugBear.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Another thought that occurred to me late last night whilst lying in bed - screwdrivers. Really good quality Perfect pattern or London pattern cabinetmaker's screwdrivers. There are millions of plastic-handled things about, which are great for engineering work because the oil doesn't soak in but wipes off easily, but very few for fine woodwork. I think Crown and Joseph Marples offer round-handled, round-stemmed ones, but nobody does London pattern or Perfect pattern ones that I know of.

Maybe the range might include specialist screwdrivers for plane cap-iron screws and the like, saw-nuts (plain and split varieties) and maybe even gunsmith's turnscrews.

Not a big tooling cost, the forging, grinding and heat-treatment work fits with their existing expertise, as does handle-making. They already make some nice 'niche market' hand countersinks, scraper burnisher and the like, so the development from those would not be a huge step, and they have some market background to give an idea of viability.


----------



## Fromey

+1 for screwdrivers. Great idea.

Also, how about hand-forged nails, hinges, etc.? The UK doesn't have a wide a range of such things as the US, so some more variety would be good.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

This is rather assuming they wanted to increase the product range. Clico make cutting tools for a variety of industries, and I suspect plane making is not their main revenue stream ?

The 450 combination plane doesn't seem to be mentioned on their website, so I wonder if they are still making it. LV seem to have the best range of products where "fancy" planes are concerned. I think a nice feature of the Clifton range is the traditional look. Judging by e-bay bidding, it is a 10 1/2 Carriage Makers plane that they ought to be making. Lots of people seem to want them, but I don't know why ?


----------



## mark w

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item ... 0280s1.jpg I had a set of these for Christmas.


----------



## Vann

Sheffield Tony":3j3vxxp2 said:


> Judging by e-bay bidding, it is a 10 1/2 Carriage Makers plane that they ought to be making. Lots of people seem to want them, but I don't know why ?


Maybe a No.10¾ - being a No.10½ with knickers and tilting handles - like a No.10¼ is a No.10 with tilting handles)...

Cheers, Vann.


----------

