# new to site, working on accurate dovetails



## eazygeezer (1 Dec 2017)

Hi everyone, new to the site and relatively new to woodworking, very much an amateur/hobbyist but I love making things and working with my hands.

Although I have a few power tools I'm trying to do most of my stuff with hand tools.

I have made my own joiners mallet and a shop notes gauge. I also have bought a Henry Disston back saw and have renovated it once. Plus I have renovated a stanley 4 hand plane. I'm currently working on a shop notes drill press table. 

I'm currently practicing handmade dovetail joints trying the Paul sellers method. I'm on attempt 9, just can't quite get the pins or tails to the right dimensions and keep ending up with small gaps. Very annoying lol

Once I have this skill pretty accurate gonna make a jewellery box for the wife.

Any tips greatly appreciated


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## MikeG. (1 Dec 2017)

If you're getting gaps, I suspect you may be losing track of which side of the line is waste. Or, something that lots of people forget, tails are wedge shaped. If you move the tail board in or out from it's correct position as you are marking, you widen or narrow the pins. As a tip just to get you going, clamp a bit of waste on the underside of the tails board, flush with the line under the tails. You'll need small clamps! You can then pull this against the pin board as a reference when marking out..

Also, you can try marking out the pins earlier, rather than once the tails have been finished. Try doing it once the sawing has been done, with all of the waste in situ, and use your saw to do the marking. This way the waste holds your saw steady, and you get a saw-width mark so have no chance of sawing the wrong side of a line.


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## eazygeezer (1 Dec 2017)

Henry disston saw renovation - blade was broken and handle was secured with a screw through it


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## dzj (2 Dec 2017)

Practice first marking, cutting and chiseling straight lines. Then move on to angled ones.
Once you have attained a high level of confidence in doing this, dovetails are easy.
Also, you might want to have that saw sharpened by someone properly.
The teeth look a bit wonky.


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## Jacob (2 Dec 2017)

I found it easier once I forgot _tails_ and started thinking in terms of _pins_ and _pinholes_. Not sure if I can explain why exactly!


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## AndyT (2 Dec 2017)

A useful thing to do as a beginner is to try using a different timber. 

You don't say what you are using but if you are practising on fast grown pine, which is pretty likely, that's one of the most challenging woods to choose. The problem is that the dark, hard layers are poorly supported by very soft pale layers. When you press or hit your chisel enough to cut the hard layers, the soft ones just collapse and bits of wood get torn out like rotten teeth. The cure is to get your chisel sharper than it was, but let's not get distracted onto sharpening. 

Any mild hardwood - bits of old furniture or 80s window frames - or tulip poplar if you need to buy new wood - will be easier to work and leave a crisp cut line.

On the other hand, the softness of pine can be an advantage - if you get the dimensions just right, your pins and tails will compress a tiny bit on assembly and close up little gaps. Don't try to overdo this or bits will snap off. 

But before you try different timber, a really effective tip is to use a 2H pencil, not the ordinary HB. Sharpen it to a long slender point so the side of the tip can rest against the sawn edge of the piece you are marking from. I found it really helped when I was making a batch of dovetails in pine recently.


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## deema (2 Dec 2017)

The Henry Disten Saw will be I’m sure brilliant. There are a couple of things that I think may be hindering cutting the dovetails.

1. The teeth don’t look to be straight and even. This may be just the photo, but if they aren’t, it will make it difficult to cut accurately. This is easy to correct.
2. The brass back looks to be completely knocked down at the toe. This is very common, but often is a sign that the blade is not in tension and could be slightly wavy which again makes cutting accurately difficult. This again is easy to correct.
3. I suspect that there is far too much set on the teeth. This makes the kerf, or slot that is created by the blade too wide and allows the blade to wonder. Again, easy to correct.
4. Finally it looks to be sharpened for cross cut, where as dovetail saws are generally sharpened for Rip. This means that it takes more effort to cut since not as much is cut away on each stroke. Again, this does not help accuracy. Easy to change to rip.

I posted the following thread which will take you through how to correct every issue I can think of that could affect a backed Saw. 

hand-saw-restoration-and-re-teething-of-a-99p-saw-t98494.html

Once you have the Saw tuned up, practice as already stated cutting straight and accurately. The main tips for sawing accurately I believe are

1. Hold the Saw with the index finger extended down the blade.
2. Hold the Saw rather than gripping it, you don’t push down, you only guide the Saw and allow it to cut.
3. Stand with one foot in front of the other.
4. Look down on top of the Saw so you see both sides of the blade at the same time. You need to have your head directly over the Saw and not to one side. If you look from one side you will Saw off vertical to the other side 
5. Saw using the entire blade rather than short stokes.
6. No one can saw accurately with a dull Saw.


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## custard (2 Dec 2017)

eazygeezer":1pzug2sn said:


> I'm on attempt 9, just can't quite get the pins or tails to the right dimensions and keep ending up with small gaps.



Dovetailing always takes a bit of practise before it comes good, but by attempt nine I'd have expected at least some to be turning out absolutely airtight. 

If there's a consistent problem with gaps then the most likely culprit is the transfer, the operation where you transfer the tails to the pin board (assuming you're working tails first). If instead of positioning the tail board _up to_ the gauge line, you go _over_ the line by about 1.5-2.0mm then you'll end up with much tighter dovetail joinery. You may have to do a tiny bit of paring to get it to close up, if so then next time reduce the amount you go over the gauge line by a whisker.

Good luck!


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## MikeG. (2 Dec 2017)

Pins first, Custard?


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## memzey (3 Dec 2017)

One thing that I picked up while practicing was the importance of cutting your tails square across the ends of the boards. Mistakenly cutting them at an angle will make it much harder for your joints to fit tightly.


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## thetyreman (7 Dec 2017)

I think taking your time is the key, that's been my experience, then marking the pins from the tails is a crucial step to a gap free fit, making sure your marking knife is always razor sharp, and use a dovetail marking template, it will improve the consistency if you haven't made one already, for me it's a must have item.


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## MikeG. (7 Dec 2017)

memzey":2rdr9tl4 said:


> One thing that I picked up while practicing was the importance of cutting your tails square across the ends of the boards. Mistakenly cutting them at an angle will make it much harder for your joints to fit tightly.



Oh, I don't know....

https://youtu.be/Hk4cwtQJmwU


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## Ttrees (9 Dec 2017)

I suggest you try Rob Cosman's methods instead 
Good luck
and welcome !

Tom


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## lee celtic (27 Jan 2018)

When I was being taught to cut dovetails I was told two things.. Never use an adjustable square, get a cutting template made from angled brass or ali.. and never use a pencil to mark out use a marking knife.. Pencils actually leave two lines when looked at closely.. 

I always hated cutting them in soft wood and loved doing them in beech..


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## El Barto (27 Jan 2018)

Welcome! Have you seen any of Matt Estlea’s videos on YouTube? His dovetail video is really good and I find him more watchable than Paul Sellers.


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## Just4Fun (28 Jan 2018)

MikeG.":11joo2ht said:


> Also, you can try marking out the pins earlier, rather than once the tails have been finished. Try doing it once the sawing has been done, with all of the waste in situ, and use your saw to do the marking. This way the waste holds your saw steady, and you get a saw-width mark so have no chance of sawing the wrong side of a line.


This is what I do and have obtained much better results since adopting this method. An important point to note is that you need to offset the tail board compared to the pin board by the width of the saw kerf so that the saw cuts in the waste. You need to offset one way when marking the left side of the pins and the other was when marking the right side of the pins. I made a little guide to help get the offset exactly right.


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## Jacob (28 Jan 2018)

My way is to do pinholes first, freehand, or spaced with dividers. Mark through with a scribe point. I use an old dart.
Or fine ones with a chisel ended craft knife - just pushed in, not a scribed line. Nothing special - grind your own chisel end on an old knife. 
Proper so called "marking" knives are problematic - they skate off the line or shave the side of the pinhole. Fine scalpel-like blades even worse. The bevel details can complicate things further, but a chisel end can be turned with flat face against pinhole face either side.
You do need to deeply cut the shoulder lines for accuracy. A knife marking gauge or sharp chisel and a steel square will do this better - or an old-fashioned short, thick and stubby marking knife - this isn't brain surgery!


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## StraightOffTheArk (28 Jan 2018)

I'm no expert, but I've dovetailed a few boxes which although gradually improving, still were not to the standard I wanted, however, I found doing them in a thicker timber (maybe 1" or so) _really_ helped - suddenly the geometry seemed much more obvious so that when I did some in thinner timber again it was much easier. 

Cheers,

Carl


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## Sam_Jack (18 Mar 2018)

I just wonder at how many poor sods have walked away from ‘joinery’ after their first whack at ‘dovetails’ – in Pine? Of all the timber, in all the world – Pine? Yes Pine – because it’s cheap and available – down the street. Buy a bit to practice on – no harm done – except to the poor Mutt who thought that a ‘little’ practice – on Pine – would set the up for more expensive timber – Alas. 

Learn to ‘cut straight’ – you can do this on practically any bit of wood you can find. If that wood is not ‘square’ and flat make it so – then cut straight. If the ‘square’ cut is not to match standard – repeat as often as necessary until stance, eye, saw and mind are aligned. If you can cur square, without a ‘rounded’ corner appearing on the second or third stroke – you are about in the right position.

“Fluff” or, less prosaically – the rubbish in the corner or the ridges left in the vertical plane due to compression and the ability of Pine to twist a tool – between the hard and soft layers must be understood. For instance – you diligently mark your across grain line with a knife line, then tease out, carefully, the top 1 perhaps 2 mm. Any residual ‘fluff’ not part of the vertical will twist and deflect your chisel – unless you take pains to remove the fluff – before the next tap on the chisel. Clean up before going deeper, on faith, that the reference face you are using is, in reality, ‘true’. Often, in Pine, without a really sharp chisel, an eye for detail and an appreciation of the traps (hard v soft) inherent in the nature of the wood – disappointment follows. 

FWIW – get some hardwood and master the basics of ‘straight and true’ in a wood that will clearly define your errors; correct those, take a little extra time with the Pine and all will be well. Eventually. IMO to practice on Pine or the SPF range is the road to heartbreak; sure its cheap and easy to source; but its deuced tricky stuff to learn on. Visit a local joinery shop – get some off-cuts of ‘real’ wood, Cut ‘square’ according to your perceived line, then measure against a square; then adjust you eye, stance and stroke to correct the natural errors you bring to the cut. Correct those errors which are solely your own – the rest will follow – provided you take a little extra care with ‘Pine’; it fools experts. That’s it – back to my knitting – right?


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## Mr T (18 Mar 2018)

If you are anywhere near W. Yorks and can make it to my workshop I'd be happy to give you a few pointers.

Chris


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## Marineboy (18 Mar 2018)

I find that transferring the tails to the pin boards much easier with a simple alignment jig. There are lots of examples on the net, this is just one:

http://tinyshopww.blogspot.co.uk/2016/0 ... t-jig.html


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## Sam_Jack (2 Apr 2018)

Being a lazy young pup my dovetails were a ‘hit and miss’ affair 78% spot on, 10% like a well aimed gumboot up a corridor and 12% ‘acceptable’ for an apprentice. Until one day a wise man made me look at ‘the back of the board’. “look here” says he, so I peer over the top; “you are no where near the ‘line’ on the back.” “No bloomin line there” says I – ‘Precisely” says he. 

What he meant – and I am to this day grateful to him was – when you first start a’dovetailing mark the ‘back of the board’ – look over the top and get the vertical cut there right – let that flow (think triangle) to the square across the top cut then, down to the depth line. Still badger the odd one (or two), even with the best of saws – because I allowed the ‘back’ line to drift. 

Old school stuff – but ‘square’ still rules the dovetail – off the saw. Just saying…


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