# Gangs



## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

This is an interesting and essential read. http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/joe-be ... 2770132588


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## RogerS (12 Aug 2011)

Don't have a faecebook account and so cant see it but let me guess....usual excuses? Cuts? Thatcher?


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

RogerS":3c8ii6tg said:


> Don't have a faecebook account and so cant see it but let me guess....usual excuses? Cuts? Thatcher?


Very interesting and well written insider view of gang culture from ex gang member now merchant banker, believe it or not.


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## Benchwayze (12 Aug 2011)

I don't have a Facebook account either. Seems to me that a thug has merely taken to a different kind of thuggery. White collar crime? 

I wonder if my G'daughter would cut and paste the article for me. On the other hand, if it was worth the space it takes up it would probably be on general view, in my browser...

Me? Ditto RogerS. Like the typo too!


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

Little point in either of you commenting if you haven't read it!


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## MickCheese (12 Aug 2011)

I have just read it.

Really interesting, a must read for all politicians.

Mick


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## Benchwayze (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":2bxpgedg said:


> Little point in either of you commenting if you haven't read it!



I often comment on things I haven't read. Because I can tell what's likely to be found within. I sometimes judge by the cover too. I know I shouldn't but it's the cynic in me I fear... :wink:


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

Benchwayze":31t2lne1 said:


> Jacob":31t2lne1 said:
> 
> 
> > Little point in either of you commenting if you haven't read it!
> ...


You really should read it! He doesn't "blame" or offer solutions in any simplistic way. He tells it how it is (I think) which is valuable, as solutions are not possible until people see the facts as they are. 
So he implies a way forwards, unlike our feeble politicians.


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## Dibs-h (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":9remi8fz said:


> Little point in either of you commenting if you haven't read it!



Here you go for folks that can't acces it



> *Inside The Minds Of London’s Rioters*
> by Joe Best on Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 4:51pm
> 
> The biggest thing that these kids want is they want to be herd. How do I know this? Because today I just found myself reminiscing about my youth time in London, spured on by the desire to correct some gross missunderstandings of the situation. Its not supprising because it looks very different on the outside than from the inside. Anyway, I started writing about these rioters and it turned into this note about what’s going on inside the minds of the rioters based on my first hand experience as a teen. Then I realized as I was writing it, even after all this time. I still want to be heard too. I enjoyed writing this alot and I think as the author, i am the greatest benficiary of this article! Hope yuo get something from it too.
> ...


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## Benchwayze (12 Aug 2011)

Thanks Dibs. 
Yes I will read it.
First though I have converted it to a Word File, and now I have to correct spelling error after spelling error. 
The writer intimated he/she couldn't be bothered. So immediately I am wondering what I am going to find as I read on. :?: 

I will do my best. 

John


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

Benchwayze":2ubi6rx3 said:


> ... and now I have to correct spelling error after spelling error. ....


Why?


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## Benchwayze (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":2gccnxea said:


> Benchwayze":2gccnxea said:
> 
> 
> > ... and now I have to correct spelling error after spelling error. ....
> ...



I don't claim to be a grammarian, nor do I have any superior skills with the language, but I do consider myself a little above his level. Wading through anything as badly written as that just aggravates me. So I'm sorry Jacob, but there it is. 

He claims to write as he speaks. To me he might as well have written it in a foreign language. I cringe whenever I hear the English language being completely mangled; and there's the point. To make himself properly understood, his English should at least be comprehensible. Although, what did I expect? Clearly he never bothered to let anyone teach him even the basics. As I suspected, this was something I could judge by the 'cover.' I wasted my time, trying to digest gibberish. 

He might see himself as the blagger extraordinaire, but whoever gave him a job in a financial environment was either monumentally stupid, or was having an off day. His mindset hasn't altered either. I wouldn't let him sweep my drive, in case he nicked the blocks when my back was turned. 

Silk purses and sow's ears come to mind, and that is based on experience. I've met them, dealt with them and all the while I knew I was wasting my time. As he says, in reference to Broadwater Farm, nothing changes. Nor will it ever. As for cutting off the head of the snake, what's the point? There's always another waiting in the queue. 

I have no time for his kind of rehab. There's bound to be something he could still be arrested for. Lock him up; throw away the key. 
No more to say. 

John


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

Benchwayze":24nvbqkr said:


> Jacob":24nvbqkr said:
> 
> 
> > Benchwayze":24nvbqkr said:
> ...


His writing is powerful, excellent and crystal clear in spite of the minor spelling mistakes. 
A tour de force - I think this will go viral and everybody will be reading it. 
It's the only account I've read in recent days which gets to the point.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

Well I tried to read it and found most of it incomprehensible and so far removed from my mindset that I will have to sit down again and try and digest it line by line.

Its not well written either which makes it more difficult. 

The March of the Proles comes to mind in all this. Given that the more intelligent of society tend to limit their offspring for the obvious benefits, the rest keep breeding and the result is an inevitable reduction in the overall intelligence of society. Not my idea of course but it makes a kind of horrid common sense. I am sure there will be those who are horrified at the suggestion.

The fact that the gangsta lifestyle seems worthy of esteem and that its cool and gets 'respec' to get nicked and put away tends to reinforce the view that society would just be better off without these people in our midst. Do they just feel they don't belong or do they not actually want to belong? If not, I can think of a few islands that would be suitable for them to try it their way. Sadly, nothing to steal or non gang members to mug but I'm sure they'll find a way.

I am someone who has always been well to the left of centre. I lost everything in the boom and bust of the 80's/90's and have been struggling to recover ever since. I had nothing, lived in a grotty attic room with hundreds of pigeons and their droppings but still assumed it was up to me to get myself out of the mess rather than blame or take it out on anyone else. I certainly didn't assume that because I had nothing with little prospect of recovery, it would be OK to just take it from others.

Since then, seeing the way things are going I have moved somewhat to the right. Not as far as my wife its true but then she makes Ghengis Khan look a right luvvie. If she had her way, anyone found to have been part of the riots would just quietly disappear one night. Problem solved?

If I can struggle through it, I might form a different opinion but I'm not counting on it.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":2d3bdo5y said:


> His writing is crystal clear in spite of the minor spelling mistakes[/b].



You are joking right???


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## mickthetree (12 Aug 2011)

we can all make our judgments and voice our opinions, but they are just that, judgments and opinions. None of us do, or will ever know if what he says is the truth, as we are all too busy trying to create and maintain our own little happy units. We close ourselves off from interacting with these people outside for fear of any break up of what we have created.

If you are the sort of person who goes out of their way to help and understand these people then hats off to you, your life maybe richer for it.

Everyone else will continue to look on and criticise from their lofty heights and offer their opinions and the circle / spiral will continue.

I like to think that one day things will be better and people will be more understanding. Otherwise, whats the point!


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

mickthetree":mfjopcy4 said:


> I like to think that one day things will be better and people will be more understanding. Otherwise, whats the point!



Ah thereby hangs a tale. There isn't a point apart from finding a way to make society function in the best, most peaceful way possible. Human being do seem to have a little problem with this.

You may feel we should have come further along the path to enlightenment but the only successful way yet found to make it run is to eject those elements that cause the whole thing to wobble.

There will always be those who don't want to join in so they have a clear choice. Do it or ..gger off.

I, of course, am not necessarily stating how I would approach it  'Just saying' I think is the current idiom.


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## Benchwayze (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":18kcywxk said:


> His writing is powerful, excellent and crystal clear in spite of the minor spelling mistakes.
> A tour de force -



Jacob, 

If I didn't realise you were having me on, I would feel insulted. If you are not having me on, and you think that is powerful, and crystal clear writing, then I suggest you get yourself a decent primer in English.

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, there was another planet....


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

gus3049":by7w09t3 said:


> Jacob":by7w09t3 said:
> 
> 
> > His writing is crystal clear in spite of the minor spelling mistakes[/b].
> ...


No I'm not.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":1zfpjxhv said:


> gus3049":1zfpjxhv said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1zfpjxhv said:
> ...


Wow :shock:


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## Max Power (12 Aug 2011)

" Getting a job meant becoming a “jed” a mug, a loser "
Says it all :roll:


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## barkwindjammer (12 Aug 2011)

Ok, it didn't 'flow' as grammar should, but I could read it and understand it, being an east ender from Glasgow maybe my skills are more 'varied' ? .


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

Alan Jones":2d18va7x said:


> " Getting a job meant becoming a “jed” a mug, a loser "
> Says it all :roll:


Exactly. He is trying to say it all. That's what makes it a good read.


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

barkwindjammer":29s383p3 said:


> Ok, it didn't 'flow' as grammar should, but I could read it and understand it, being an east ender from Glasgow maybe my skills are more 'varied' ? .


If you read it out loud it flows quite well.


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## nanscombe (12 Aug 2011)

Almost sounds like something out of Oliver Twist.


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## Benchwayze (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":2ill1qga said:


> barkwindjammer":2ill1qga said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, it didn't 'flow' as grammar should, but I could read it and understand it, being an east ender from Glasgow maybe my skills are more 'varied' ? .
> ...



:roll: 

The Bronte Sisters would be turning in their graves; or are you a Lancaster man Jacob? 

BWJ, 

I did understand most of what he was trying to say, (Although the street-language has altered a little since my day.) That doesn't mean I have to accept his excuses and his clumsy uneducated style.

John


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

For those who aren't familiar with it, might I suggest you visit YouTube or click the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1TfZBjgG6c


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## Lardman (12 Aug 2011)

Well I've just read it.

"peer pressure made me do it, it's everyone elses fault but mine" just about covers it.

Note that it didn't require reams of self indulgent back slapping either. Same old excuses its neither insightful or enlightening and certainly isn't "powerful, excellent and crystal clear".


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## Jacob (12 Aug 2011)

Lardman":16zcjs8w said:


> Well I've just read it.
> 
> "peer pressure made me do it, it's everyone elses fault but mine" just about covers it.
> 
> Note that it didn't require reams of self indulgent back slapping either. Same old excuses its neither insightful or enlightening and certainly isn't "powerful, excellent and crystal clear".


I'd read it again if I were you! 
I didn't think he was making excuses - just describing how difficult it is to get free and be independant in those circs. Mostly kids remember - 11 to 18 year olds. He did get free himself.


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## barkwindjammer (12 Aug 2011)

Benchwayze":21vrusk3 said:


> BWJ,
> 
> I did understand most of what he was trying to say, (Although the street-language has altered a little since my day.) That doesn't mean I have to accept his excuses and his clumsy uneducated style.
> 
> John



He states at the beginning that he started to correct it grammaticaly-then gave up, and decided to use his 'own speek', if it had been honed I think it would have had less of an impact to the reader and less credibility. All the same it is (IMHO) powerfull stuff.


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## Lardman (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob":39pwal1w said:


> I'd read it again if I were you!



Why? has it changed since I read it the first time.


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## Anonymous (12 Aug 2011)

I have to admit peer pressure is a huge thing in life.

I have a very good friend who has come from a hellish upbringing, he has been in 35 foster homes, he was beaten as a child by his heroin addicted mother and his alcoholic father, he has been in trouble with the police numerous times, and avoided going to jail by the skin of his teeth. when he was 19 he was taken in and 'adopted' by a great lady in her 70's who just happens to be very wealthy. She taught him right from wrong, she mothered him and cared for him and then provided him with an education from the basics upwards to degree level, she had him help her out around the house and running errands in return for driving lessons and then a car.

I have got to know him very well over the last 2 years and he is a brilliant and very kind guy. We often speak of his upbringing and how horrible it was for him but he tells me how he just got on with it. we speak of what has been done for him in recent times by this lady, i ask him what the greatest thing she has done for him, his reply is simply she gave me an education, encouragement and most of all mothering love. 

He was saved by being mothered and cared for, and he says being in a gang was a very bad substitution for the belonging and love he and everyone he knows craves.


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## Dibs-h (12 Aug 2011)

mark270981":2yycxpk8 said:


> She taught him right from wrong, she mothered him and cared for him and then provided him with an education from the basics upwards to degree level..
> 
> ..i ask him what the greatest thing she has done for him, his reply is simply she gave me an education, encouragement and most of all mothering love.



There are plenty of folk who won't do that for their own and they don't have addictions to blame. 

The old lady certainly does make humanity's light shine brighter in these times. Sounds a wonderful person and someone to emulate\admire!

Dibs


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## studders (12 Aug 2011)

I started to read it, quickly realised it was the same old same old and gave up. 
Frankly, I'm sick of all the excuses and 'reasoning'. I dare say the Crays could have done similar.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

Well, I have now struggled through the whole thing and it still sounds to me like a ten year old writing it.

The whole gang culture also sounds like ten year olds or younger inhabit it. I wouldn't equate education with intelligence, the two are clearly not the same thing. I was educated to death, my wife left school at 16 having skipped most of it. She is far smarter than I am.

This lot seem to exhibit the worst of all worlds. No education, no support from those who are supposed to provide it - parents first, it all stems from that, then the rest of the system - but judging by the tone and content of this article, assuming he is typical, a sad lack of intelligence too.

Of course, peer pressure is a large component of childhood. It was when I was a kid just as it is now. The intelligent kid knows how to go with it so far but not be bent by it. The balance seems to have been lost by a section of this generation.

Whilst they think its 'cool' to be part of all this then the ones who escape into the 'normal' world will be few and far between. Strange thing really, I've spent my entire life trying to escape the 'normal' world and have only just managed it in part. Changing is not easy, whichever direction you choose.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

studders":3acg5p17 said:


> I started to read it, quickly realised it was the same old same old and gave up.
> Frankly, I'm sick of all the excuses and 'reasoning'. I dare say the Crays could have done similar.



They all can. The words of the Dire Staits song just came to mind

"treachery and treason, there's always an excuse for it"

Never a good reason to hurt those who are innocent and whose lives you will ruin just because you feel hard done by. Its all the produce of the 'normal' world that this lot seem to want to steal though. None of the things they crave would be produced if someone didn't have the job to make it.

As always, the thief wants the benefits with putting in the effort. The thief is the one who robs people of their chosen lifestyle just as much as the goods.

They can do anything they like of course but only if it does no harm to other people at the same time.


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## Anonymous (12 Aug 2011)

Dibs-h":o6m0fd0d said:


> mark270981":o6m0fd0d said:
> 
> 
> > She taught him right from wrong, she mothered him and cared for him and then provided him with an education from the basics upwards to degree level..
> ...



There is something I have to say, she is the most wonderful caring lady you could wish to meet, she took on another guy in a similar situation and helped him or probably should say encouraged him to get into Sandhurst, he is now a captain in the army, but i only met him once so couldn't comment on what/how he felt.


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## Tom K (12 Aug 2011)

Jacob, the only reason you are so taken with this drivel is because it fuels your belief that
the poor darlings are hard done by socialist crusaders looking for equality.
The truth is they are scum.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

mark270981":3jq8spqj said:


> There is something I have to say, she is the most wonderful caring lady you could wish to meet, she took on another guy in a similar situation and helped him or probably should say encouraged him to get into Sandhurst, he is now a captain in the army, but i only met him once so couldn't comment on what/how he felt.



I'm quite sure that Sandhurst is pretty low on the gangs' list of desirable options.

Its way down on mine too as I hate everything it stands for whilst recognising the need.

It does show the importance of help and guidance though and showing the possibilities that life can offer.


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## Anonymous (12 Aug 2011)

gus3049":yj697ynl said:


> mark270981":yj697ynl said:
> 
> 
> > There is something I have to say, she is the most wonderful caring lady you could wish to meet, she took on another guy in a similar situation and helped him or probably should say encouraged him to get into Sandhurst, he is now a captain in the army, but i only met him once so couldn't comment on what/how he felt.
> ...



oh sorry she should left him on the streets then instead providing him with an opportunity to do something with his life.


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## studders (12 Aug 2011)

mark270981":29cj2zvl said:


> gus3049":29cj2zvl said:
> 
> 
> > mark270981":29cj2zvl said:
> ...



The bit in bold renders your reply rather childish.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

mark270981":mrxkgjqt said:


> gus3049":mrxkgjqt said:
> 
> 
> > mark270981":mrxkgjqt said:
> ...


Come on, re-read what I said.

I hate everything to do with war. I also recognise the need to prepare for it as there are people out there for whom the big stick is the only answer. This goes for the rioters too.

That was in no way meant as a derogatory comment about the army Captain or the help he got or the people who choose that way of life. They do things that I would have problems doing myself and we should all be grateful for that.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

studders":2609q5ff said:


> The bit in bold renders your reply rather childish.



In what way?


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## Anonymous (12 Aug 2011)

studders":3enaw2dy said:


> I'm quite sure that Sandhurst is pretty low on the gangs' list of desirable options.
> 
> Its way down on mine too as I hate everything it stands for whilst recognising the need.
> 
> *It does show the importance of help and guidance though and showing the possibilities that life can offer.*



oh sorry she should left him on the streets then instead providing him with an opportunity to do something with his life.[/quote]

The bit in bold renders your reply rather childish.[/quote]

Duly noted - didn't read it properly my apologies gus


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## Anonymous (12 Aug 2011)

gus3049":zbmgc13p said:


> studders":zbmgc13p said:
> 
> 
> > The bit in bold renders your reply rather childish.
> ...



I think that was aimed at me Gus, 

Apologies for not reading your post correctly


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## studders (12 Aug 2011)

gus3049":lmbjud6a said:


> studders":lmbjud6a said:
> 
> 
> > The bit in bold renders your reply rather childish.
> ...



Gawd. Not yours Gus, I meant Marks reply, which he has duly coughed up to. And I apologise for the 'Childish' dig, I should realise by now people can make genuine mistakes.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

studders":1ah93yhh said:


> gus3049":1ah93yhh said:
> 
> 
> > studders":1ah93yhh said:
> ...



Hmmm.

'uman beans huh! How easy it is to misunderstand each other.

I expect there is some hope.

All's well that ends well in this case


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## Benchwayze (12 Aug 2011)

barkwindjammer":2vrir9a4 said:


> Benchwayze":2vrir9a4 said:
> 
> 
> > BWJ,
> ...



My point is if he gave up, why should I have to correct it, to even try to follow it? 

My own father had these problems in the Aston of the early 20th Century. There were gangs and peer pressures then. 
Maybe the situations were not so wild as we have just experienced, but he and his siblings managed to 'get out of it', and make a decent life for themselves. No fuss, no asking for help (Which didn't exist at all then) They just got on with it. 

So please don't make excuses for this scum we are now clearing up after. 

No more to be said by me.


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## barkwindjammer (12 Aug 2011)

Some people make it out of the pit, most dont.
http://www.poverty.org.uk/09/a.pdf


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## Anonymous (12 Aug 2011)

what say you to the fact that the poorest 10th percentile are uneducated?

I know in some cases there are some extenuating circumstances.

Education is so goddamn important but when you are young you actually fail to realise it so its up the parents to encourage.


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## gus3049 (12 Aug 2011)

mark270981":1ec5xjfx said:


> what say you to the fact that the poorest 10th percentile are uneducated?
> 
> I know in some cases there are some extenuating circumstances.
> 
> Education is so goddamn important but when you are young you actually fail to realise it so its up the parents to encourage.



Indeed but a big problem is that so many parents are themselves uneducated so just pass on their own world view as normal. As said before, the fact that this group tend to reproduce rather generously merely builds the problem into a bigger and more serious one.

It seems a shame that there seems to be no system designed to recognise the likelihood of this being the case and some extra effort put in. Back in the time that land forgot when I was a boy, the parents were interviewed with their child to assess their suitability for the school. I wonder if this still happens.


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## barkwindjammer (12 Aug 2011)

mark270981":ib93g4ij said:


> what say you to the fact that the poorest 10th percentile are uneducated?
> 
> I know in some cases there are some extenuating circumstances.
> 
> Education is so goddamn important but when you are young you actually fail to realise it so its up the parents to encourage.



Took a while reading this and deciphering :? 

what say you to the fact that the poorest 10th percentile are uneducated? saith Marcus XXVIIIXLXXXI

Thats an olde way of speaking, they (the scum you speak of) are fashioned this way, as in olde chronos, the gentile were educated in Latin, to prevent the commoner gaining a move, indeed any move, sire.


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## Digit (12 Aug 2011)

> gang member now merchant banker,



There's a difference?

Roy.


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## stevebuk (12 Aug 2011)

Digit":1p0q8dts said:


> > gang member now merchant banker,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




yes, he now wears a tie and smiles while nicking your money, and if he fails he will just get a massive bonus instead.


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## Digit (12 Aug 2011)

Yeah, one demands money with menaces and 'tother menaces us with money!

Roy.


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## RogerS (13 Aug 2011)

gus3049":2l4vimke said:


> ..
> 
> Indeed but a big problem is that so many parents are themselves uneducated so just pass on their own world view as normal. As said before, the fact that this group tend to reproduce rather generously merely builds the problem into a bigger and more serious one.
> 
> ......



Sadly this is very true. The film 'Idiosyncracy' deals with this issue and a more profoundly depressing film I have yet to see.

The other thing that I find depressing is the double-standards offered by the liberal/left/anarchists/communists etc. They bang on about 'they (the rioters) have been hard done by, blah, blah, blah' and yet when asked to provide their own home addresses to experience at first hand a little bit of 'anarchy' they are remarkably reticent.

Double standards. Two-faced. Hypocrites. Words that spring to mind.


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## gus3049 (13 Aug 2011)

RogerS":u8ze4zja said:


> gus3049":u8ze4zja said:
> 
> 
> > ..
> ...



What a good idea :!: 

If anyone on the forum who has sympathy with the rioters (no names no pack drill) cares to offer their home address, I am sure that there will be a good response along the lines of "If its OK with you, as we are feeling a bit hard done by at the moment, we just want to pop over, set your house on fire, steal all your worldly goods and whilst we are about it, rape your wife and daughters and maybe kill you"

One strongly suspects that when faced with this scenario there may be a slight change of heart. Unless they are the incredibly generous sort of course. "Yeah, no problem, go right ahead, I won't mind, I understand your point of view entirely, quite a normal response"


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## Jason Pettitt (13 Aug 2011)

I choose to be sympathetic with pretty much anyone and everyone. My home fronts on to a public street just like any other.

Did you have a point?


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## Benchwayze (13 Aug 2011)

I think Gordon's point is simple enough. 
How can anyone sympathise with thugs and thieves? There is no excuse for what went on. 
It happened because the perpetrators just decided to take what they wanted, and as no one initially stopped them, they decided it was open season. 
They didn't care about being identified and later arrested, because there really was nothing to be afraid of; and look at the street cred they would have in the eyes of their 'peers'. 

Jason, if those are the kind of people you sympathise/empathise with, than I feel sorry for you. 

If it should ever come to pass that you needed my help because of these 'creatures', I would help you. I would even resist the urge to say I told you so. But the only part of your post I can empathise with, is the altruistic issue; that if everyone thought as you do, certainly we would be fine. Sadly, it isn't the case. Nor will it ever be so.


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## Digit (13 Aug 2011)

Very well put IMO.

Roy.


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## Digit (13 Aug 2011)

From Sky, the word pratt comes to mind.....

_A 17-year-old boy from the Stockport area was also arrested on suspicion of burglary after he boasted on Facebook that he could not be caught, _

Roy.


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## Jason Pettitt (13 Aug 2011)

No, the point Benchwayze was to use the excuse of recent troubles in UK cities and the relative anonymity of an Internet forum to hurl childish insults and taunts at others because some folk think that wins them 'cred' with their Internet peers.


> I would help you


Thanks. But instead of dreaming about what you might do, blaming others and complaining after it's all too late you can get started now by volunteering at your local youth club.


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## gus3049 (13 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":1ilg5opr said:


> No, the point Benchwayze was to use the excuse of recent troubles in UK cities and the relative anonymity of an Internet forum to hurl childish insults and taunts at others because some folk think that wins them 'cred' with their Internet peers.
> 
> 
> > I would help you
> ...



Your first sentence is unworthy of comment.

Perhaps my power of language is deserting me. I'll try and make it simpler for you.

Sympathy for anyone is likely to diminish slightly once they have set your house on fire, stolen your possessions and attempted to beat you death. If you can't see this then there is no discussion going to change your mind.

_*forum |ˈfɔːrəm|
noun ( pl. forums )
1 a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged :*_

Thats what this place is for in case you didn't realise it.


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## Digit (13 Aug 2011)

> blaming others and complaining



As are many of the yobs as their means of 'justifying' their actions, are they not?

Roy.


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## MickCheese (13 Aug 2011)

I don't think anyone can justify what has happened but once this is over we do need to look at preventing it happening again and breaking up the gangs is vital, in my opinion. That may mean diversion for some, prison for others but these youths need a purpose in life.

The wounds are too raw to start looking for solutions at present but at some stage the answers must be found.

Mick


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## Jason Pettitt (13 Aug 2011)

> As are many of the yobs as their means of 'justifying' their actions [by blaming others], are they not?


I'm sure they are. It's a common ego-defense mechanism.


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## RogerS (13 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":193b85z8 said:


> > As are many of the yobs as their means of 'justifying' their actions [by blaming others], are they not?
> 
> 
> I'm sure they are. It's a common ego-defense mechanism.



Are you sure you're not confusing an ego-defence mechanism with a coping strategy? It's a common mistake.


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## Jason Pettitt (13 Aug 2011)

Yeah, fairly sure. But if you think describing Digit's example as a coping strategy is a better way of thinking about it then I'm all ears.


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## Benchwayze (13 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":28akp1bk said:


> No, the point Benchwayze was to use the excuse of recent troubles in UK cities and the relative anonymity of an Internet forum to hurl childish insults and taunts at others because some folk think that wins them 'cred' with their Internet peers.
> 
> 
> > I would help you
> ...



You don't get it do you Jason?

When I said I would help you, if need be, I was being sincere. Also I was touching on the sentiments behind Voltaire's quotation on freedom of speech. (Actually it wasn't his quote, but we won't go there.) 

Now you use the anonymity of the Forum to throw that back in my face. You also have the impudence to tell me what I should do about these problems. Young man, you don't have the slightest inkling of what I have had to do for most of my adult life. I won't enlighten you, because I don't think you could handle it. Let's just say you are in no position to 'instruct' me in any way whatsoever. Have I given you a clue? 

Now please, climb back on your rocking-horse and trot off back to the nursery. You have my permission to stay there until you learn something about life; Life with an Upper Case 'L'. You could also take the opportunity check your ground before you make suggestions with regard to what you think others should do.


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## Noel (13 Aug 2011)

You were in the SAS?


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## Benchwayze (13 Aug 2011)

Do you honestly expect me to answer yes? :roll:


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## studders (13 Aug 2011)

Please don't tell us as then you would have to kill us. 

Jason, why do you think anyone should help these lowlifes when it appears they can't be bothered to make any effort to help themselves (except to what doesn't belong to them, obviously)?

PS I once did some volunteer work in a youth center, doing renovations etc as part of a community project. Before we even got to finish the place was broken into by a large group of youths; by the time the Police got there the place was totally trashed. There ended my input into trying to help them.


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## Benchwayze (13 Aug 2011)

Oh all right then Studders... 
I wasn't, but i know a man who is! :lol: 

John


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## Jason Pettitt (13 Aug 2011)

Benchwayze":22vzos3x said:


> I was being sincere



As was I when I thanked you for your offer of help. But I do think your offer is misplaced, not just because it's empty - it's highly unlikely to actually happen, but because efforts would be much more productively, wisely, not to mention morally, spent actively including kids in society today than sweeping up afterwards.


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## Noel (13 Aug 2011)

Astronaut?


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## Digit (13 Aug 2011)

> spent actively including kids in society today than sweeping up afterwards.



With all respect Jason that is a comment that I would direct at the parents. I noticed one 14 yr old girl appeared in court on her own. Her mother said that she hadn't seen her for two weeks.
A few months ago a 15 yr old lad was arrested for murder, as he was so young a 'responsible' adult needed to be present. His mother claimed that she was 'too tired', she never appeared in court during his trial nor for sentencing.
Parenting should be licenced!

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (13 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":1lffkbxd said:


> Benchwayze":1lffkbxd said:
> 
> 
> > I was being sincere
> ...



You joined a Woodwork Forum. We all need help occasionally. 
As for doing the sorts of things you are thinking of, I spent my working life at it. It's my turn to put my feet up.


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## gus3049 (13 Aug 2011)

I strongly suspect that Jason has never been on the end of the attention provided by one of these mobs. Its very easy to make an intellectual judgement when there has been no direct experience. But then that sums up the young. I used to know stuff now I think its true.

Don't be so sure about the unlikihood Jason. I have direct experience and have a scar across my stomach to prove it. The knife missed my kidneys by 4mm or so. This was in Wimbledon High Street on a saturday morning. It can happen to anyone.

The real tragedy about all this that the brutal ignorance of the mob brutalises the rest of us. If I was faced with the same situation again, I wouldn't hesitate. Something large and heavy would come into play before anyone had another chance to do me damage.

John, you shouldn't allow this sort of comment to annoy you, especially when it comes from ignorance and inexperience. Maybe its a symptom that the young don't want the guidance. It was always true to a degree but the extent is becoming a major problem for society.


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## Tom K (13 Aug 2011)

Its obvious Yoof clubs!  
Musty church hall last millennium tunes from a rubbish stereo and some hopelessly out of touch do gooders to wind up. 
Thursday nights 6 to 8.30 bring your own ginger beer. (homer)


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## RogerS (13 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":2pqo7mg3 said:


> Yeah, fairly sure. But if you think describing Digit's example as a coping strategy is a better way of thinking about it then I'm all ears.



I can't find the example that you are referring to.

Anyway, they seem to be coping very nicely. Arson..Mugging. Assault. Burglary. Looting. Murder. 

Oh, silly me, I was forgetting. According to some of the woolly thinkers out there, we're not listening to the youth of today. Yet again, it's not there fault.

How about them listening to us? Our message is very simple, really.

If it's not yours then it's not yours. If you want, go and get a job and buy it.


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## Benchwayze (13 Aug 2011)

Noel":2irveef6 said:


> Astronaut?



Something much more down to Earth Noel. :wink:


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## barkwindjammer (13 Aug 2011)

RogerS":3dg8wdt7 said:


> If it's not yours then it's not yours. If you want, go and get a job and buy it.



The social care and welfare sector is an industry, its big bucks for those who work in the sector and all its subsiduary services, sure, the scum get 'free money' a la tax payer (you and I) , but the Admin cost for keeping the scum as scum is vast, parasite needs host needs parasite, this country has been engineered as a service economy, and like it or lump it-they are part of it-the lowest part ?.
Talking of economy, some 30 years ago (or more) an eminent economist predicted "Britain will become an economy turned by people serving each other coffee and cutting each others hair". I dont condone what these desperados have commited, yeah maybe they should be unleashed 10 at a time into one of them lazer zone/paintball complexes, and we the 'civilised' could 'win tickets' from Camelot, scratch cards, on-line competitions, free prize draws etc etc, and torture them, slowly, humiliate them, act out revenge with tazers, baton rounds, bacon slicers ?.
Treasure Island ?


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## Digit (13 Aug 2011)

You missed out, the stocks, the wheel, hanging drawing and quartering, oh, and burning at the stake!

Roy.


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## studders (14 Aug 2011)

Digit":3r9dp78r said:


> and burning at the stake!
> 
> Roy.



Must be due my next eye appointment. I thought that said 'Buming at the stake'. :shock:


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## Anonymous (14 Aug 2011)

Just want to vouch for John (benchswayze) on this one, given what he did as a profession i would say he understands this more than most.


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## Geofrey (14 Aug 2011)

hey Dibs, that ones long but rather interesting write ups. I have not read read the article on Facebook either. But I think yours is probably a better piece and after reading it, I didn't have the time and the patients to go on Facebook anyway. 

Great posts


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## Jason Pettitt (15 Aug 2011)

RogerS":zy0qcdtv said:


> I can't find the example that you are referring to.



You've already quoted it in your posts Roger.

The reason why I think ego-defense is a better in this instance is because coping strategy is a loose term than can mean any of a huge range of ways people find to internally deal with all manner of trials and tribulations. Ego-defense is specifically about pulling the wool over your own eyes so that you can maintain a view of yourself that is challenged by reality. I'm sure that kids in gangs will qualify their behaviour in all sorts of ways and even think that they're moral individuals because they're loyal amongst their peers - even though that morality can be starkly absent in the outside world.



> Anyway, they seem to be coping very nicely. Arson..Mugging. Assault. Burglary. Looting. Murder.
> 
> Oh, silly me, I was forgetting. According to some of the woolly thinkers out there, we're not listening to the youth of today. Yet again, it's not there fault.


Yes, points for being smug. Sadly, not really in touch with what anybody actually thinks or of much practical use.

Roger, two things bothered me about the events of last week. Obviously there was the deplorable looting, arson and violence. But also that there are that many kids who don't think that their futures (or present) are better served by not behaving like that. To reference your sig - given the scale of the lawlessness there's inevitably going to be an increase in the use of stick. To do that and not think that carrot also needs looking at is just absent mindedness.

Stick without carrot isn't justice.



gus3049":zy0qcdtv said:


> I strongly suspect that Jason has never been on the end of the attention provided by one of these mobs. Its very easy to make an intellectual judgement when there has been no direct experience. But then that sums up the young. I used to know stuff now I think its true.



Gus, you know no more about my experiences in life than you do my age. Your guesses are just that, shots in the dark guided only by your own prejudices - and the results of your guesswork say a lot more about you than they do me.


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## gus3049 (15 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":3eva246b said:


> Gus, you know no more about my experiences in life than you do my age. Your guesses are just that, shots in the dark guided only by your own prejudices - and the results of your guesswork say a lot more about you than they do me.



On the contrary Jason, you stated that the likelihood was very remote which rather suggests that, as I suggested, you have not been on the receiving end. So not guesswork but based on your own post.

My prejudices are formed by the direct experience of near death. What are yours formed by?


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## Jason Pettitt (15 Aug 2011)

Remote in that not only are physical attacks thankfully rare but also that the likelihood that Benchwayze would then be personally on hand to assist is as close as makes no difference to not going to happen. Though the sentiment was appreciated.

Again. You know not a dot about me.


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## RogerS (15 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":1yy9o1bc said:


> ....
> Stick without carrot isn't justice.
> 
> ....



Which is why my signature advocates 'stick and carrot'. The liberal loony left only believe in carrot and which is why we are in the mess that we are in.


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## gus3049 (15 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":33xgseo6 said:


> Remote in that not only are physical attacks thankfully rare but also that the likelihood that Benchwayze would then be on hand to assist is as close as makes no difference to not going to happen. Though the sentiment was appreciated.
> 
> Again. You know not a dot about me.



The way people talk tells perhaps, more about them, than you might suspect.


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## Jason Pettitt (15 Aug 2011)

Gordon, that you've got all your judgements wrong so far does suggest otherwise. If you don't mind I've got better things to do than argue whether it's possible to dowse a chap's character, age and life experiences from a few typed lines from an Internet forum.

Roger, No they don't. No it isn't.


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## studders (15 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":bwx5fyee said:


> Remote in that not only are physical attacks thankfully rare ...



I'm assuming you mean In East Anglia? They are certainly not rare in South London, In fact in many parts of South London (can't speak for the North side) should, almost, anyone be unfortunate enough to find themselves out, especially at night, the chances of it happening are very high.


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## gus3049 (15 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":2313pevw said:


> Gordon, that you've got all your judgements wrong so far does suggest otherwise. If you don't mind I've got better things to do than argue whether it's possible to dowse a chap's character, age and life experiences from a few typed lines from an Internet forum.
> 
> Roger, No they don't. No it isn't.



Jason, the fact that you clearly 'KNOW' everything rather than 'think' it rather means that I don't think you are worth talking to any more either. Byeee :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (15 Aug 2011)

studders":z7s9cnt6 said:


> They are certainly not rare in South London, In fact in many parts of South London (can't speak for the North side) should, almost, anyone be unfortunate enough to find themselves out, especially at night, the chances of it happening are very high.



I would say (based on personal knowledge) that it's a daily event. It's one of the reasons I moved.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Digit (15 Aug 2011)

> Stick without carrot isn't justice.



That would seem to suggest that you believe people must be bribed into good behaviour. Alfred the Great tried that with the Danes, they kept coming back for more. The Romans tried it as well, so did we with the Sudenteland, history would suggest that bribery doesn't work.

Roy.


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## studders (15 Aug 2011)

Paul Chapman":135zqfoj said:


> I would say (based on personal knowledge) that it's a daily event. It's one of the reasons I moved.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul


It certainly seems to be that way Paul. Wish I'd moved years ago when I thought about doing so, couldn't afford to move now.


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## Digit (15 Aug 2011)

I moved here, west Wales, to avoid escalating crime in Telford, at one time we had a drug dealer next door!
We had a mini crime wave shortly after we moved here, vigilanties sorted that!

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (15 Aug 2011)

Jason:

If you are a lot older than you seem, then you have either lived in a cloistered environment, or you have been wandering around with your mind closed. 

For some forty years now, successive Governments have practiced the 'more carrot than stick' approach. (Notably during the three terms prior to the last General election. ) The only trend in criminal behaviour has been upward; an increase, despite what Mr. Blair and Co. would have you to believe. If that doesn't convince you nothing will. If that be the case then you don't wish to accept the truth and you are as hidebound in your attitudes as you believe us to be.

As for 'helping you', I quote my own post:

*If it should ever come to pass that you needed my help because of these 'creatures', I would help you. I would even resist the urge to say I told you so. But the only part of your post I can empathise with, is the altruistic issue; that if everyone thought as you do, certainly we would be fine. Sadly, it isn't the case. Nor will it ever be so.*

I was quite well aware it was unlikely, a metaphorical situation. But if you ever are in a position to need the sort of help I used to dispense, then I hope for your sake the person on hand has my sentiments.

So again... Goodbye.


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## gus3049 (15 Aug 2011)

*An astonishingly subtle and deeply meaningful offering to this thread.*

Once upon a time there was a professional gardener called Ronnie (Veronica Sir to her husband)

She and said husband decided to set up a huge garden and grow Roses and Lavender and all their own fruit and vegetables.

Her husband, being a bit of a luvvie was always upset that all the wild flowers were not allowed to mix in with the cultivated elements of the garden and so encouraged his wife to allow them to grow where they would and not be too harsh with them.

Gradually, the wild element started to take over, strangling the other plants and dropping their seed all over the plot.

The luvvie wrung his hands. 

Ronnie dug up all the weeds and put them on the bonfire. Those she couldn't uproot, she cut off at the knees with a big strimmer.

"Sorry luvvie" she said, "sometimes you just have to be strong and cull the intruders, no matter how attractive they may seem, for the general good. Do you want to carry on eating our own food and live the way we chose or do you want to live with the chaos of an unstructured garden?"

"You can't have it both ways"


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## RogerS (15 Aug 2011)

Jason Pettitt":184j7z5j said:


> Gordon, that you've got all your judgements wrong so far does suggest otherwise. If you don't mind I've got better things to do than argue whether it's possible to dowse a chap's character, age and life experiences from a few typed lines from an Internet forum.
> 
> Roger, No they don't. No it isn't.



Well, we will have to differ. All I hear from the left is 'sit down boys and have a nice cup of tea'.


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## Jacob (21 Aug 2011)

I've been away (Kayaking in the Scillies - now have back-ache and a cold!)

Been thinking about this issue. Not much light been spread in my absence I note. :roll: 

Some common features of gangs:
have same language and tend to talk only to their peers,
culture of fear - tend to be afraid of many things and cover their timidity with bravado i.e. speaking violence and presumably would act violently, given the occasion,
somewhat gullible - easily lead by whoever takes the lead, and easily exploited,
tend to be genuinely ignorant about many things and reliant on a very narrow range of sources of news and information,
tend to think they are hard done whilst other parts of society are having a better time
basically are deprived in many ways not of their own making and should be encouraged and helped back into mainstream society - I firmly believe they want the same things and quality of life as the rest of us.
I refer of course to Daily Mail readers and their ilk. 
What can we do about the poor things? I suppose the answer is more education - but then the tories would lose their grass root support.
It's a real problem though innit? The country would be so much better without them!


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## Digit (21 Aug 2011)

Welcome back Jacob, we missed you!

Roy.


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## studders (21 Aug 2011)

Digit":v5mbw7j4 said:


> Jacob, we missed you!
> 
> Roy.



Aim a little higher and slightly to the left Roy, should get the blighter then.


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## Digit (21 Aug 2011)

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Roy.


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## Jacob (21 Aug 2011)

gus3049":27z1w5l4 said:


> An astonishingly unimaginative and deeply meaningless offering to this thread.....
> 
> "You can't have it both ways"


You most certainly can!
Some of the best ever gardens succeed by diversity with wild/natural mixing with cultivated. Actually a much older concept than "organic" gardening.
And life is like that, long live diversity!


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## gus3049 (21 Aug 2011)

Jacob":392gnrjq said:


> gus3049":392gnrjq said:
> 
> 
> > An astonishingly unimaginative and deeply meaningless offering to this thread.....
> ...



Well I did say it was a subtle metaphor or is a simile or is it too simplistic to mean anything anyway. It was after all just a play. I agree about the gardens really, we have a very nice mixture - up to a point. The problem is keeping the wild flowers off around the main areas at the moment as there is no grass. The sun has burnt off all the top. We have to mow regularly to cut off all the seedpods as the 'weeds' still shoot up and if we let them do their own thing, that's all we would have. Ronnie has laid the main section out as quite a formal design so she doesn't want 'unplanned' displays.

I just care about the fruit and veg that tastes like it used to when I were a lad and we have fussy chickens - they prefer grass too..

As far as the gangs are concerned, sadly, I reckon education is a bit late for the present contenders. Presumably therefore, if they have the next generation, they will be bought up in a similar way and so on. Therein lies much of the problem it seems. The march of the proles?


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## barkwindjammer (21 Aug 2011)

Earlier in the week I heard on 'telly' some white 'bloke' in Camden state that David Cameron had made a 'prophetic statement' - spare me

the most near to 'prophetic' statement I read is this one from 'Mickthetree' 

we can all make our judgments and voice our opinions, but they are just that, judgments and opinions. None of us do, or will ever know if what he says is the truth, as we are all too busy trying to create and maintain our own little happy units. We close ourselves off from interacting with these people outside for fear of any break up of what we have created.

If you are the sort of person who goes out of their way to help and understand these people then hats off to you, your life maybe richer for it.

Everyone else will continue to look on and criticise from their lofty heights and offer their opinions and the circle / spiral will continue.

I like to think that one day things will be better and people will be more understanding. Otherwise, whats the point!

=D>


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## Benchwayze (21 Aug 2011)

Jacob":1y6feaee said:


> I've been away (*Kayaking *in the Scillies - now have back-ache and a cold!)
> 
> Been thinking about this issue. Not much light been spread in my absence I note. :roll:
> 
> ...



Welcome back Jacob: Despite the fact that you turned my favourite palindrome into a verb. 8)


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## promhandicam (21 Aug 2011)

gus3049":2vdh1tbi said:


> Well, I have now struggled through the whole thing and it still sounds to me like a ten year old writing it.



more likely to be written by Tom MacMaster :lol:


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## Tom K (21 Aug 2011)

Certain it wasn't written by any ex gangbanger utter tosh


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## Jacob (21 Aug 2011)

Benchwayze":2nltlkto said:


> ....
> 
> Welcome back Jacob: Despite the fact that you turned my favourite palindrome into a verb. 8)


Ta fer that. Had to scan carefully. Kayaking?
Sokay innit?


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