# Website Optimisation



## BradNaylor (26 Jan 2009)

I've been inundated in the last few days with PM's from forum members asking my advice on setting up websites and optimising them so that they come up near the top of Google searches.

Everybody seems to be setting up in business!! :lol: 

I have accumulated a certain amount of knowledge on the subject through trial and error but I am far from being an expert. I would welcome any input from more technically minded people on the dark art of website optimisation.

My own experience is as follows;

1. Key Words

With most website design packages you will be asked to enter a list of key words and phrases which will picked up by search engines. Do this - it is very important.

Equally important however, is this;

At the bottom of each page of your website, in a font so small that it cannot be read by the naked eye, List your key words and phrases, each seperated by a comma. I don't know why it works, but it does!

2. Links

Google apparantly likes websites with lots of links to and from them. My mate Phil and I have three websites between us, all linked together. This has helped zoom all three up the rankings. So put as many links as you can in!


3. Google Maps 

This is the key. Assuming that you mainly want business from your local area, register with Google Maps. It is completely free and it works amazingly.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=fi ... =en&tab=wl

Click on the link 'Put your business on Google Maps' and complete the form.

Within a week or so you will find your website appearing on local Google searches.

4. Local free directories and databases

If you do a search in your local area for 'cabinet makers' you will firstly get a few dotted on a map - this is Google Maps. You need to be there.

Below this however, ther will be a list of results linked through local directories such as touchlocal. There are dozens of them. A basic listing on these is usually free if you take the time to fill in the online form. The more of these you register with the higher up Google you seem to come.

5. Yell.com

This one is not free I'm afraid, but it is highy effective. Businesses with a weblink on Yell always seem to come higher up the Google rankings than ones which don't. Some people even use Yell.com as a search engine for local businesses. At around £350 per year I find it good value.

I'm sure I have only tickled the surface of what is possible - over to you, guys!

Cheers
Dan


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## Escudo (26 Jan 2009)

Dan,

When my colleague set up our web page, he managed to get it to appear at the top of the google search.

I have just checked and now my name and a link to me goes all down the first and most of the second page.  Gaw'd knows how he did this, but it is very good.

Our web page is a little out of date now and needs updating, something I must organise soon - however it is very important to appear as near to the top in the google list. 

Good subject this for anyone setting up in business or organising a web page.

Cheers, Tony.


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## Steve Maskery (26 Jan 2009)

I was having a conversation about this very subject on Friday evening. Paul, for that is his name, reckons that keywords no longer work as well as they used to because they are being superseded by Google Adwords. It's something I have to investigate.

As to the links. I understand that the Bots that search do some sort of correlation between your keywords and the actual content of the page. The higher the correlation, the higher your score.

They also take into account the number of links coming in from outside. This is why link exchanges are a good idea, both parties benefit. In fact, it would make sense for all of us to have a links page on our sites (I don't think it even has to be navigable toable). We could all list each others sites as links and that would help us all. I'm game, anyone want to so a swap?

S


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## misterfish (28 Jan 2009)

Talking to my son who is a software engineer heavilly involved with web development he says that the best thing to do is a search on SEO (=Search Engine Optimisation). This should give links to useful tips as well as software and specialists in the field.

Misterfish


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## bugbear (28 Jan 2009)

There a lot of guesswork and BS in this field. All the SEO companies claim they can get you to the top of the list.

A moments thought reveals that at-most-one of them is telling the truth.

Further google change their code at whim, partially to circumvent the latest trick the SEO's try.

My website is a google "top hit" for two subjects. I have not tried to SEO in any way; I simply have content that happens to be good (indeed, probably the best in its field), and Google finds it.

BugBear


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## wizer (28 Jan 2009)

I agree BugBear. The only thing I have found that really gets you high up in the lists, is page hits. You need to find some other way to get hits on your page before the search engines take notice.


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## misterfish (28 Jan 2009)

Following my initial consultation results postedabove from Simon my developer son, he has now sent me the following email full of useful information:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization

I'm no expert at SEO, but here is some anecdotal hints:

1) Make sure you submit your page to google and use their tools like the website optimiser
2) Make use of Robots.Txt to only allow spidering of important pages
3) Try and make your page validate (http://validator.w3.org/)
4) Make sure you have text equivalents of all graphics (especially buttons, use alt tags etc) - in fact stick as much text as you can onto the page. Don't hide the text using css or font colours as I've heard this can rank you down (no proof of this though)
5) Make sure you have filled in the Meta Data with useful keywords
6) Try adding a block of 'about us' text; normally these are at the bottom of each page in a footer but I've heard people suggest that Google ranks text based on it's proximity to the top of the HTML file; you could try adding it first and using CSS to move it to the bottom of the page.
7) Get people to link to you - the more the better.
8 ) I believe the Google toolbar will tell you your page rank; use it to test your page.
9) Use search engine friendly URLs (that is to say, replace www.mysite.com?page=1 with something like www.mysite.com/my_first_page/page); 

And finaly, cheat,

Buy some Google adwords and become a sponsored link... (be warned, competitors can out sponser you though...)

Misterfish


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## ByronBlack (31 Jan 2009)

Use wordtracker to research the correct keyword phrases, and optimise your website to include these keyword phrases in well written a good quality content. Your position in google will be determined by use of keywords - preferably ones that aren't highly competitive (forget about woodworking for example) and pagerank which is determined by the quality of incoming links.

Dan - do not put tiny writing or text with the same color as your background, or spam as many keywords you can into a small space. This will get you blacklisted from search results, and will take many months to rectify, if at all.


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## chunkolini (2 Feb 2009)

Try the google link posted by Dan (thanks Dan), I cocked it up and have to wait for a letter to give me a code to activate my two sites.
Mrs Chunkolini popped her reflexology site up, and 5 minutes later; from previously barely registering on google; she appeared on the first page, type in ross on wye and we even have our own little arrow on the map. Some other directories charge a fortune for this type of thing.

Well worth five minytes.

Chunko'.


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## matt (2 Feb 2009)

The single most effective method I've used (in combination with standards compliant design etc) is a good title. This is particularly important if you service a particular need in a particular area. Get it in the title and you'll shoot up the search engine ranking for searches similar to your title.


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## Soulfly (4 Feb 2009)

It entirely depends on what field and product or service you are in and how competitive it is etc. . Google analitics is very good. The is a lot of mistique and nonsense spoken about getting up the search ranking but you just have to roll up your sleeves and get on and do the spade work yourself.


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## matt (4 Feb 2009)

matt":1cicqc9w said:


> The single most effective method I've used (in combination with standards compliant design etc) is a good title. This is particularly important if you service a particular need in a particular area. Get it in the title and you'll shoot up the search engine ranking for searches similar to your title.



Google search "bespoke furniture south east london". Check out the 1st site (Greenwich Wood Works) (after the sponsored links). Title tag! 

Google search "handmade fitted kitchens south east london".Check out the 1st (Greenwich Wood Works) and 5th sites (Russell Blake) (after the sponsored links). Title tag!

Google search "tiling blackheath". Find the 9th site (Tactile Ceramics). This temporary holding page is just an image - no content whatsoever (not even meta data). The title tag is the most influential factor in it's Google ranking.

The examples both illustrate how influential the title tag is and also how fickle it can be too. Hence my suggestion that the more specialist your area/site the more beneficial it can be (generally speaking).

NB: Tactile Ceramics and Russell Blake have very few (if any...) links in from other sites. Greenwich Wood Works has some but not what I would call particularly good links for the content.


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## Dave S (4 Feb 2009)

Steve Maskery":19b5nklr said:


> They also take into account the number of links coming in from outside. This is why link exchanges are a good idea, both parties benefit. In fact, it would make sense for all of us to have a links page on our sites (I don't think it even has to be navigable toable). We could all list each others sites as links and that would help us all. I'm game, anyone want to so a swap?
> S



Now my understanding is that swapping links is now a _bad_ idea, :? because so many people were doing it that Google now pays little attention to it. I'm led to believe that it is genuine links to your site, ie links from sites that you _don't_ link to which are of value. 

But as Bugbear said, there is a lot of BS in this area. :x 

Dave


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## Steve Maskery (4 Feb 2009)

How on earth are we supposed to work this game? I have an SEO company pestering me at the moment. They may be good and they may be worthless, I have no idea.

If we have to forget about "woodwork" as a keyword, and if, like mine, the business is not geographically based, then how can I get a meaningful title that is not replicated a million times?

I would love to come up under "woodworking DVDs" but I don't. Now if you search for "Steve Maskery's Woodworking DVDs" then it's a different matter. The problem is that nobody in the world is going to enter that search string, are they? It all very well having specialist keywords, but they have to be keywords that people are likely to want to search.

I don't understand it, that's for sure.
S


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## Dave S (4 Feb 2009)

Wish I knew the answer as well, Steve.

One thing I notice though...you say you'd like to come up under "woodworking DVDs" but you don't actually have that as a keyword on your product page. It doesn't seem to appear in your text either.

You also don't have "workshop essentials" as a keyword although it does appear several times in your text.

My immediate thought was that you have a lot of keywords - I wonder if that can count against you. I would have thought that several of them are not much help anyway.

The other thing I have read is that Google pays special attention to headings. Not so much <h1> but more so <h2>, <h3>. Apparently. careful use of these will help Google work out what the content of your page is about. Bearing that in mind, you might want to look at your product page. For example, the first DVD, you have this:



```
<div>
<h3> New!</h3>
Workshop Essentials 3
<br>
The Ultimate Tablesaw Tenon Jig
<br>
</div>
```

Note that for some reason, the code snippet above is getting mangled when I paste it into this post and the class assignment on the outer div is being deleted :-s 

What you could do, is put the title of the DVD in <h3>, and put 'New!' in <p> and give it a class of its own (which sets it to red, italic). 

If what I read is correct, this would assist the Googlebot in sorting out the content of your page.

Having said all that, it is only what I have heard/read and is no more valid than anything else you may hear or read. I am very much finding my own way around this topic myself.

As it happens, I have a book out of the library at the moment about optimising for Google. It's a small but recent book (2008 IIRC). If I learn anything I think worthwhile, I'll pass it on. 

Dave


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## matt (4 Feb 2009)

Steve Maskery":1i4dunhi said:


> How on earth are we supposed to work this game? I have an SEO company pestering me at the moment. They may be good and they may be worthless, I have no idea.
> 
> If we have to forget about "wwodwork" as a keyword, and if, like mine, the business is not geographically based, then how can I get a meaningful title that is not replicated a million times.
> 
> ...



This is where title is not so helpful... Someone once said that a web site is like pinning a post it note on a tree in the middle of a forest and hoping someone will find it.

You're selling a specialist sub-category of a HUGE (DVD) market. You may do better to sell your products through a distributor in the DVD market or focus marketing through woodworking retailers to capture the specialist customer base?


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## Jake (4 Feb 2009)

Or focus on the content of the DVD as the keywords which will lead people to you, rather than the fact of the DVD.


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## matt (4 Feb 2009)

Jake":3uicr041 said:


> Or focus on the content of the DVD as the keywords which will lead people to you, rather than the fact of the DVD.



Good point.

As an aside... ranking and number of visitors is not indicative of a sites success. Conversion rate is the performance indicator that really counts. You need to understand how many visits are converted in to sales.


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## ByronBlack (4 Feb 2009)

Steve, you need to use some keyword software to identify potential keyword phrases for your services. Go to 'wordtracker' or type into google 'keyword research' read a few articles and follow the links to the various tools that will allow you to research and discover keywords.

The reason why the examples earlier in this thread were a successs are not just because of the tite. The title is just one of many factors within a page that dictates pagerank and search engine position. A search engine will assess the page overall for keywords, and make an assessment on the aggregate rather than any one single factor.

Incoming links are also important. If you are competing for a keyword phrase the websites that has the most good quality (high pagerank) links incoming to it will be given priority over a website with less quality links to it.

The best content in the world can only get you so far, you need incoming links if you are to compete with others.

SEO is a big subject and has many many factors. I would avoid any unsolicted SEO company as the vast majority of them are scammers, and many will promise you 'no.1' on google - well I could do that for you tomorrow, but it will be for an obscure keyword phrase that only 2 people a year look for.

To re-cap: research your keywords first, read articles on how to select them (it's a pretty straight forward method when you read a few articles), once you have your list of keywords, write compelling and qood quality content using these keywords in a natural fasion - don't spam the same phrases over and over. Make use of the title as suggested, but also your page name, page header, page text and use your keywords in any picture 'alt' tags and internal links.

When you have done that, the next task is to get as many incoming links as possible using your chosen keyword phrases. This can be achived in the following ways:

- commenting on blogs in a meaningful way, most will allow you to enter your web address - make sure you use your keywords here in the link (very important)

- submit your website to the DMOZ and Yahoo directory

- Start a myspace/facebook/twitter account and produce content while all the time using links to your website using your links.

- Comment on forums with your optimised link in your signature

- Write a blog, each entry should be compelling and interesting (this will make others link to your content).

- Use Youtube and other video websites, in the description use a link to your website.

- Write articles on 'squidoo' 'hubpages' 'ehow' all the while linking back to your website. This method is particular suited to woodworking as you can lead a subject into an area that your DVD continues..

I hope that helps a little.

(To qualify my information, I used to run a web development company and did all this for a living).

Edit: Matt, the examples you have given, espeically the blackheath only proves that these are not competitive keywords. For example if you do a search for 'tiling blackheath' in the keyword adsense tool, you'll find there are so little searches for this term, that google has no sufficient data to even return a result, so you could get there just by having a page with a single keyword on it. PageRank is the single biggest factor in a good position, and to get PageRank, you need quality incoming links, it's the basis of google's entire algorithm.


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## Steve Maskery (5 Feb 2009)

Thank you BB, that is most helpful.
S


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## bugbear (5 Feb 2009)

Steve Maskery":3b2sq9iw said:


> How on earth are we supposed to work this game? I have an SEO company pestering me at the moment. They may be good and they may be worthless, I have no idea.
> 
> If we have to forget about "woodwork" as a keyword, and if, like mine, the business is not geographically based, then how can I get a meaningful title that is not replicated a million times?



Don't try to play "computer games". Simply write, in clear English, what you are offering; use simple HTML, and follow the HTML conventions.

There are sites (services) which will check the conventions for you.

You are NOT going to come top for poor searches like "woodwork" or "DVDs".

Indeed, if someone types "DVD" as a search, I don't think a human could work out what they really want, let alone Google!

You might do well on the combination (woodwork DVDs), since that's more selective, and does express some kind of intent.

If you're the ONLY person offering (e.g.) a DVD on tenon sawing AND someone searches for that I would expect you to do well.

I'm afraid if you're offering a "me too" product in competition with the big boys, you'll lose, both in google ranking terms, but also for simple old fashioned business reasons.

BugBear


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## ByronBlack (5 Feb 2009)

Bugbear - I disagree completely. Just because you are offering a similar service doesn't mean you can't compete. There are hundreds of examples where individuals have written a book or produced a DVD and are selling them very well in a full competitive market. Some even become millionaires - it's all down to how you market your product.

In regards to Steve, other than the LN produced DVD's it's not much of a competitive market, in fact, Steve's product is probably the only one in his area with the amount of content that he has.


Steve. I've been looking at your website and to be totally honest with you, it needs some work. It's not compelling enough for someone to buy your product - you need more information to convince the buyer your DVD is what they need.

How about a FAQ section? Testimonials should go right on the front page along with your introduction text and your sales copy. It's sales copy that sells products, your website is very low on this at the moment.

Matt was right in that once you have your traffic, you need to convert them sales. 

Also, do you ship to the US? the US is your biggest market, and by not advertising to them and offering an easy way to buy from you, you are cutting off a massive chunk of your potential market.

Secondly, why should I buy from you? What makes you an authority on the subject? You need to build a persona on the web that people can then identify with you as being an expert on your subject, testimonials aren't enough. To do this, you could run a blog (usually this is the best way as it also helps you gain loyal readers). Run a newsletter - this is an essential part of selling online. Once you have a newsletter full of email addresses then you can market to them. Have a special offer? Stick it in the newsletter, have a new product? Advertise to your newsletter - these are already qualified leads and your conversion rate will be much much higher.

Also, why not start a podcast? It doesn't need to be a long winded one, just a simple 5 minute audio podcast each week with a woodworking tip - preferably allied to your video content. You could easily come up with 100 tips in an afternoon, thats enough for 2 years worth of content.

Once that podcast is up and running, when people search for woodworking related audio/video, you'll be well placed to get those listeners.

Also, have you sent your DVD's to your fellow 'experts'? On the net for example that would be guys like Marc Spagnolo, and Matt from matt's basement workshop and the guy from 'furnitology'. Send them a free copy and try and do a deal with them where they can feature your tips podcast with theres on their website and have them review and evangelise your DVD.

In a way I'm envious of you Steve because you have an amazingly high value/quality product and with just a little effort you could turn it into quite hte money making venture. I only wish that I had enough knowledge in a subject to do something similar (although I plan to do something on guitar building later this year).

Edit: I forgot to mention. Use Ebay! It's a good way of getting your DVD's sold (stick them in the crafts > woodworking category), but also make use of their 'classified' ads and link back to your website.


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## ByronBlack (5 Feb 2009)

Here's a good article for anyone who wishes to find the right keywords:
http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/2008/05 ... words.html


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## frugal (5 Feb 2009)

Steve, you might want to take a look at Google analytics to analyse where your customers are coming from and for calculating conversion rates.


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## matt (5 Feb 2009)

ByronBlack":1ycuqdxs said:


> The reason why the examples earlier in this thread were a successs are not just because of the tite. The title is just one of many factors within a page that dictates pagerank and search engine position. A search engine will assess the page overall for keywords, and make an assessment on the aggregate rather than any one single factor.



Not disputing that there are other factors, however, the title tag was the single most significant change when it came to ranking. It's a formula I've repeated with consistent success.

Your point about the Tiling site echoes the point I made originally about the influence of the title tag.


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## ByronBlack (5 Feb 2009)

matt":r6swuzzg said:


> ByronBlack":r6swuzzg said:
> 
> 
> > The reason why the examples earlier in this thread were a successs are not just because of the tite. The title is just one of many factors within a page that dictates pagerank and search engine position. A search engine will assess the page overall for keywords, and make an assessment on the aggregate rather than any one single factor.
> ...



matt - i'm not disputing the title tag isn't A factor, but it's not THE factor, it's just one of many and for a succesful placement where there is some level of competition which is almost everything these days, you need intergrated content, a title on it's own will not be enough. I've done this for a living, so I don't mean any disrespect, I just want to make sure that everyone see's the big picture.


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## matt (5 Feb 2009)

ByronBlack":2mcnxv08 said:


> I've done this for a living.



Me too. The point I am trying to make is that we are saying the same thing so there's no need to qualify your responses to the point I made about the title tag. It creates the impression that you are disputing what I am saying. I don't care about that personally but, like you, want to retain some clarity around the subject.


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## ByronBlack (5 Feb 2009)

Matt - fair enough, at the end of the day we both just want to help. I feel I sometimes have to qualify what I say, (maybe you experiene the same thing?) because so many have dealt with dodgy SEO companies and there seems to be a level of distrust within the industry that SEO has somewhat become a dirty word almost like 'MLM' and so on..


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## matt (5 Feb 2009)

ByronBlack":3uo6ay46 said:


> I feel I sometimes have to qualify what I say, (maybe you experiene the same thing?)



I do and I don't. I tend not to make any reference to having been involved in web development. There were so many people on the bandwagon I find it does not really add any qualification. That, however, may be jaundiced view from within the industry.


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## ByronBlack (5 Feb 2009)

matt":jc9l1qbj said:


> ByronBlack":jc9l1qbj said:
> 
> 
> > I feel I sometimes have to qualify what I say, (maybe you experiene the same thing?)
> ...



I see where you are coming from. I used to avoid threads like these, but then realised I have something to offer people in this area that I'll give it ago and try and qualify where I can (In the past I've had to resort to showing my actual qualifications to prospective clients despite a long list of previous work and success - it was at that point I realised the industry was doomed).


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## Steve Maskery (5 Feb 2009)

Well thank you for the links and advice guys. What a lot to digest! I can see it's going to be harder to market than it was to make in the first place.

BB, thank you for your kind words about my work. On a good day I think I have some good stuff too, other times I wonder what I'm doing. I find it hard to believe that anyone can become millionaire from making and selling a DVD. I'll never recoup my production costs!



Do you have any examples of sites which you think are well-written?

Cheers
Steve


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## ByronBlack (5 Feb 2009)

Steve,

Here's a good example of sales copy that works - but it doesn't mean you will like it, a lot of people don't however, they do work, this particular guy and accompanying book is one of the most successful on the net:

http://www.burnthefat.com/

It's also a very good book despite the hard-sell site.

I wouldn't advise going exactly for this style - but definitely research how the sales copy is written to answer and dispell a potential customers barriers to buy.

Another phenomenon:
http://www.mattfurey.com/mattfurey_uncensored/

(again, hardsell style - but look at the sales copy)

One of the biggest selling fiction writing system:
http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/art/snowflake.php

I could probably find some more examples when I get home - i don't have all my bookmarks with me here at work.

Steve, it's really not that hard as it may seem, there is a process that you can follow and test etc.. 

If it seems daunting, I can recommend some books for you - again, i'll have to do that when I get home.

Edit: I don't know why I havn't suggested this yet, but it seems appropriate. You should perhaps consider offering an affiliate service to sell your product. This way you'll have potentially hundreds of clued-in internet markers generating and closing sales on your DVD for you and they will take a cut. Your product is a niche product which is what they look for, and there is software that will allow you to automate the whole process. You could offer something around the 4-5% (avg rate for an affiliate) on sales, it's a quick way to generate a lot of content and sales without having to do to much work.


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## CNC Paul (5 Feb 2009)

Steve Maskery":3lx3l60h said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone can become millionaire from making and selling a DVD. I'll never recoup my production costs!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Steve,

you need to wear tighter hotpants and a plunging neckline :shock: 



Paul


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## Steve Maskery (5 Feb 2009)

What, _even tighter_ than my usual?
S


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## CNC Paul (5 Feb 2009)

Steve Maskery":2hon9zeh said:


> What, _even tighter_ than my usual?
> S



If you want to sell more DVD's

The tighter the better 8) 


Paul


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## Steve Maskery (5 Feb 2009)

Perhaps I'm just making the wrong sort of films...
S


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## matt (5 Feb 2009)

Sent you a PM Steve. A quick re-work of the copy on your site...



> *The Ultimate Tablesaw Tenon Jig*
> 
> Advanced system for cutting tenons vertically on the tablesaw with a guarded blade.
> Accurate, micro-adjustable, versatile and fast
> ...



Versus:


> Workshop Essentials 3 - The Ultimate Tablesaw Tenon Jig is an advanced system for cutting tenons on the tablesaw. The idea of cutting tenons vertically is not new, of course, but until now has been fraught with the dangers of using an unguarded blade.
> This the best tablesaw tenon jig in the world, even comparing it with manufactured cast iron ones. It is accurate, versatile and fast - the workpiece just slides between two predetermined positions, so your tenons will fit right first time every time. It's also micro-adjustable so that rails and stiles end up flush when you need them to, ensuring minimal cleaning up.
> The normally-challenging twin mortice-and-tenon joint is covered as well, and is just as straightforward with this system as a simple tenon.
> By adding an auxiliary face, spline joints for picture frames become a doddle, too, and of course, the whole unit is guarded, making it the safest jig of its kind. The DVD also includes FREE PDFs for the tenon jig, the crosscutting jig for cutting the shoulders, the SUVA-style guard and the auxiliary guard.
> ...


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## Steve Maskery (5 Feb 2009)

Excellent! I'll buy one!

Just a minute....

S

PS Now you realize why I'm not in Marketing


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## ByronBlack (5 Feb 2009)

Good job Matt,

Steve, to help further with your existing content, here's a link with an article that takes you through step-by-step how to optomize existing content:

http://www.wordtracker.com/academy/usin ... eb-content

Actually, that whole 'academy' area of wordtracker has a lot of really good informative info.


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## mailee (20 Feb 2009)

Well guys most of this has gone over my head? I have just got my website up and running using Serif. (I havent got a programming bone in my body) A friend helped me to design it and I have hosted it with a host site that had good ratings. I don't know how it will do in the Google ratings but have added it to just about every local search engine I can think of. It has only been up a couple of days so far but I can't find it with a search yet??? :?


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## wizer (20 Feb 2009)

In terms of design I think you have done really well. Nicer than Dan's!!  :lol: 

One suggestion. Enter something for each imaged 'Alternate Text' This is a small thing that helps with SEO.


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## mailee (20 Feb 2009)

Thanks Wizzer but you have lost me there mate?? I haven't got a clue what you mean about 'each imaged alternate text' ? I haven't the first idea about this webstuff, I just followed the instructions in Serif.


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## ByronBlack (20 Feb 2009)

mailee - no offense mate, but it's a big and difficult subject. If you want to improve your position in the search engines results page, you only have two options.

Buy some books and learn how to do it properly, or contract a professional to do it for you.

However, the very first thing you need to do is consider what the purpose of your website is, and who you are targeting. Once you have done that, you can start coming up with keyword phrases that you think your customers will use to search for services like yours (assuming the point of your site is to attract customers). When you have that list of keywords, use googles 'adwords keyword analyzer' tool to suggest other related terms you might not have thought of.

Pick some terms on the list that google's tool gives you and select ones that have low competition (displayed by a bar graph on the page) and ones that have a decent amount of searchers per month (at least a few hundred).

When you have chosen your keywords, you can then use these in your website copy - either by learning how to do this yourself, or better yet, go to www.elance.com and contract a freelancer to do it on your behalf.

Without first thinking about your customers and identifiying the right keywords, your website will never get listed in a good position.

HTH


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## Dave S (20 Feb 2009)

Agree with Tom there, Alan, it's not at all bad for a start. 

A couple of constructive comments if I may - 


1. the title text seems to be a different size on different pages. 

2. the header - the wood effect part at the top is a different height on different pages

3. I see no mention of your location on the site. You need that for any search engine to list you against your location.

4. You have given good prominence to photos of your work, but some of the pictures are distorted as they resize. Also, the dynamic replacement of pictures in the frame is rather flaky (I'm viewing in Firefox).

Overall I'd say you've got the right idea - the site is simple and pretty well laid out. I would suggest there is rather too much text on the homepage, though.

I agree with Byron, though, the whole search engine thing is huge in itself, and because the way Google and others work is constantly changing, even so-called experts can quickly fall out of touch.

But again I would agree with Byron, in that the biggest single problem most people have with their websites is not having a clear idea of _why_ they have a site, _what_ they want it to do, and _who_ their target audience is. Get these right and you are well on your way.

HTH

Dave


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## woodlandlad (20 Feb 2009)

just read this thread and im no expert either but one thing that also works is to do the search of your site for your self over and again via all the search engines.it takes awhile but soon the engines see the site and it gets bumped up the listings and also if you are sel ling from the site then the more you sell then the higher you will rank.it has worked for me as i appear at top on most searchs but it has taken a few years.


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## wizer (20 Feb 2009)

That only works if you do it from a different computer (IP Address to be more specific) each search. The search engines are sophisticated enough to immediately recognise when a search is repeatedly coming from the same source. Getting everyone you know to search for your site will be beneficial. 

There is no short cut with SEO.

Mailee: each image will have an alternate text field. You fill it with with a short piece of text describing the image i.e Oak Cabinet or Softwood Gate, etc

Search engines like this because they can index your images.


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## mailee (20 Feb 2009)

Well I have had a look Wizer but it seems I can't attach any words to the images unless I buy the full version of Serif. Problem is with my knowledge of website design is it worth me purchasing this? I am not sure, but think I will have a word with my friend who helped me design it.


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## wizer (20 Feb 2009)

I don't think it's worth it for alternate text alone. You should be able to edit the html files in notepad. 
Have a look at this link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt_attribute

The bit in quotes after ALT is the alternate text for that image.


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## Jake (20 Feb 2009)

I'd drop the "or *even* one of the many man made boards" (or whatever the exact phrasing is). Chances are that many of your potential leads will be looking for that kind of stuff. It reads as - you'd like to tell anyone interested in painted MDF to f off, but you might condescend to build it if you need the work.


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## wizer (20 Feb 2009)

On the gallery page, I think the thumbnails are too small. In fact I am not overly keen on the scroll bar style. I think a grid of thumbnails would look better.


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## mailee (21 Feb 2009)

Thanks for the advice guys I have been to see my computer guru and he has altered some of the HTML thingys in the site and it is coming up in the 
google maps now.  I have also taken note of the other comments you have all made and altered most of them. I have just noticed your latest posting Wizer, about the gallery page and will have a look at that one too. There is more to this going solo than meets the eye isn't there? :? I am a complete novice as you can tell but I am learning slowly. Thanks again guys, much appreciated. :wink:


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## superunknown (21 Feb 2009)

Are you getting a good response from your site or is it too early yet?

If you fancy trying an alternative slide show Flickr have a great one that can be embedded in a webpage, it looks very smart and its free.


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## ByronBlack (21 Feb 2009)

woodlandlad":3j2fj24m said:


> just read this thread and im no expert either but one thing that also works is to do the search of your site for your self over and again via all the search engines.it takes awhile but soon the engines see the site and it gets bumped up the listings and also if you are sel ling from the site then the more you sell then the higher you will rank.it has worked for me as i appear at top on most searchs but it has taken a few years.



I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

Also, search engines algorithms do change,but it's pretty difficult to fall out of step if you are doing the right things - it all comes down to education.

Second point, the amount of copy on your website is crucial if you are selling a service or a product. More copy is proven to more succesful than short copy, for real evidence of this, see this link, the long copy was over 80% more effective in converting page views than short copy.
http://www.marketingexperiments.com/imp ... -copy.html


It's the copy that will have your keywords and shape your pages 'theme' that google will use to rate your website. If you don't have a lot of copy, google will not see your website as relevent to your keywords, you have to have supporting copy.

Mailee, I can't stress enough, that before you do anything else to your website, think about what you want to achieve with it. Is it just an information source that you give direct to prospects to see your work? Or is it to find new prospects through people searching online?

Both of those two aims have very diifferent SEO requirements. If it's the former, you only need to worry about making your website attractive, and convincing to your prospect, if it's the latter, you NEED, and again, I stress, you NEED to do some research on keywords and what people are searching for. THEN you can optimise your website, but not before you know what the aim of the site is.

For example, you are geogprahically tied, so all your keywords should feature your location, as it's not the amount of views you get to your wesbite that counts, it's how many useful 'targeted' visitors you get who can actually use your services. For example, if you optimised for 'joinery' you would get no business at all, as it's too vague, however if you optimised for 'pergola building wigan' (or whatever location you choose' you are more likely to get a higher ranking as it's a less competitive term, and the people that come to your website looking for that term are much more likely to convert to customers.

Alt tags, titles, paragraphs, headings, meta tags etc... are all just tiny aspects of the general optimisation, don't bother focusing on these until you know what your keywords are going to be, only then can you write compelling and persausive copy using those keywords.

Too many people just stick up a site, and then fiddle with or two aspects without thinking through the fundamental steps, and ultimately have a lame website that no one visits, 80% of my business was rescuing and fixing these websites for my clients - the fundamentals are so important.


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## RogerS (24 Aug 2009)

This is a really good thread being in the position of trying to create my own web site. The really tricky thing is defining those keywords and that's where I'm struggling!

Doing a bit of research would suggest that 'cabinet maker' isn't that sensible a choice of keyword but it seems to be used by many sites! Or is it the fact that 'cabinet maker worcester' would be more effective? Which then leads on to Brad's suggestion of getting on to Google Maps. 

Where's that 'going round in circles' emoticon? :?


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## hivisvest72 (25 Aug 2009)

In relation to the "Where's that 'going round in circles' emoticon?" comment - I'm afraid that's what SEO is - it's a continual process of refinement, monitoring, analysis and testing (although it can of course take ages to see any difference). 

It's a science in itself and that's why there are plenty of companies charging lots of money for optimising sites. When I'm not woodworking, I'm a Senior IT developer for a major UK bank (and also build freelance web sites) - we deal with SEO agencies a lot, and there's so much work goes into it you wouldn't believe. 

As with usability, accessibility and 'user friendliness', SEO is based on having: 
- good quality, well marked-up (standards compliant, cross-browser compatible) html code, 
- the content should be relevant, focused on the topic on each page, 
- don't try to 'fool' SEs into indexing your pages higher, they will notice and the opposite will happen 
- use an analytical tool (Google Analytics is the one I use) - with this you can see where people are visiting your site from, what they are searching for when they find your site, their physical location etc. 

My over-riding rule is that if you do your research and find out what people are looking for, and come up with your keywords around your site to enforce the fact that you offer that service, then you're big step forward. Also, it will read well to 'real' users as well as search engines, so once they find your site they will find the information easily, and be more likely to take that 'commit' click, whether it's an application, or just a 'contact us' button. 

Don't then try and labour the point with the keywords - as I said before, trying to 'fool' the search engines by repeating content over and over and putting loads of text hidden from the user will both frustrate users when they don't find what you are looking for and is likely to be spotted and penalised by search engines. 

Hope all of that rant helps, just need to make sure my own sites are up to scratch with what I've said, after all you wouldn't trust a plumber with leaking pipes in his house! 

Cheers 

Alan


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## RogerS (25 Aug 2009)

Many thanks for the suggestions, Alan. The circles might be getting a little smaller :wink:


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## bugbear (25 Aug 2009)

hivisvest72":2lmystua said:


> As with usability, accessibility and 'user friendliness', SEO is based on having:
> - good quality, well marked-up (standards compliant, cross-browser compatible) html code,
> - the content should be relevant, focused on the topic on each page,
> - don't try to 'fool' SEs into indexing your pages higher, they will notice and the opposite will happen



Yes; since google is trying its hardest to help its users find good content, if your pages have good content, SEO "comes out in the wash".

I happen to be at, or near, the top of googling bow saw, bowsaw, and "bow saw".

I'm sure if I'd set out with that as my (only) goal, I would have failed.

But I set out to help people make bowsaws, and I succeeded 

BugBear


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## CHJ (25 Aug 2009)

Anybody any Idea why I come top of a google for:

Hobby Turner 

With a few more associated hits:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site:q ... n&filter=0


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## wizer (25 Aug 2009)

Chas a combination of good/simple site design, good content and frequent visitors. That's what makes you popular with search engines.

Similarly, if you search for Triton Router, you get Ray (Argee)'s site third down. For the same reasons.


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## matt (25 Aug 2009)

...and "Hobby Turner" is a very unusual search term.


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## wizer (25 Aug 2009)

yes good point. It's not a very useful search term.


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## CHJ (25 Aug 2009)

I was intrigued by the speed with which Google and Bling picked up the reworked site, about 2 hours.

All links based on:
<Title> and <meta description

<meta name="keywords" content would appear to be ignored
these days.


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## Steve Maskery (25 Aug 2009)

I've sort of given up in despair on this SEO stuff, and I've not made changes to my site (either of them) for far too long, but I've had a little upsurge in trade lately (I have no idea why) and I find, to my astonishment, that whilst I am not No.1 in the Hit Parade, I do actually appear in results as generic as "woodworking DVDs". OK, so the hit is a reference to my films made in Sierra Leone, but hey, one can't have everything.

It really does seem like an impenetrable minefield. Perhaps I just need more attitude and perseverance.

God, it's hard being alive, isn't it?

S


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## BradNaylor (26 Aug 2009)

RogerS":2skjaq0e said:


> Doing a bit of research would suggest that 'cabinet maker' isn't that sensible a choice of keyword but it seems to be used by many sites! Or is it the fact that 'cabinet maker worcester' would be more effective? Which then leads on to Brad's suggestion of getting on to Google Maps.
> 
> Where's that 'going round in circles' emoticon? :?



I find that 'cabinet maker' is a very effective search term. It may have something to do with the fact that it is also a category in Yellow Pages; most of the data in free online directories is lifted in the first instance from Yellow Pages.

Register with Google Maps and as many free local directories as you can find and you will see your Google ranking soar. I would also recommend a web-link with Yell.com if you have the budget for it.

Meanwhile, this is a very good book on SEO. It's worth exploring the author's website, too. Plenty of good tips...

http://www.ben-norman.co.uk/getting-not ... steps.html

Cheers
Brad


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## RogerS (26 Aug 2009)

I second that recommendation. Superb book and to the point. I like the 'In Easy Steps' range. They don't patronise the reader like the Dummy range which I detest.

As a search term 'cabinet maker' is popular but I've come to the conclusion that you/we need a geographic localiser unless we're in Mark Wilkinson territory!


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## RogerS (26 Aug 2009)

Steve Maskery":1mv9b2yg said:


> I've sort of given up in despair on this SEO stuff, and I've not made changes to my site (either of them) for far too long, but I've had a little upsurge in trade lately (I have no idea why) and I find, to my astonishment, that whilst I am not No.1 in the Hit Parade, I do actually appear in results as generic as "woodworking DVDs". OK, so the hit is a reference to my films made in Sierra Leone, but hey, one can't have everything.
> 
> It really does seem like an impenetrable minefield. Perhaps I just need more attitude and perseverance.
> 
> ...



Googling 'woodworking DVDs' yielded thousands of hits but adding 'jigs' got you near the top of the first page. But you really need to change your copy. There were some great suggestions elsewhere in the thread IIRC.


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## BradNaylor (26 Aug 2009)

RogerS":fgngkoef said:


> As a search term 'cabinet maker' is popular but I've come to the conclusion that you/we need a geographic localiser unless we're in Mark Wilkinson territory!



That is why Google Maps is such a valuable tool. It is essential to localise your search results.

Mr & Mrs Jones looking for a new wardrobe to be custom-made for them generally want somebody local to do it for them. They are very unlikely to order such an item from a firm at the other end of the country.

Likewise, the cabinetmaker only really wants local business. What is the point in wasting time and money travelling until the potential of the local market has been fully exploited?

Books and articles on SEO tend to neglect this aspect; probably because the authors have only ever been involved with businesses looking for national exposure. Getting to the top of the Google rankings within a specific local area is actually very easy, and in my experience obviates the need for any other advertising at all.

There again, I'm lucky enough to have 2 million people living within half an hour's drive of my workshop...

Cheers
Brad


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## Steve Maskery (26 Aug 2009)

Yes, I know, I know. And I'm not ungrateful for the suggestions either, just rather weary. I've also broken my video camera this week so I'm even more jaded than usual! 

I do have one or two ideas of things I can try, though, and I plan to make additions to the blip.tv clips (it works more like a TV channel than YouTube does, and I'm not limited to 10 mins either, but it's not as well-known, of course)

I don't know what, but something has found my stuff. I've had a sudden flurry of orders. The last time this happened it was because one of the US mags (I never did find out which one) put one of my YouTube clips on their own site. Of course, when the next featured one came along, it was back to business (such as it is) as normal.

I'll try to work up some enthusiasm. On hols next week so maybe I'll come back raring to go.

Cheers
Steve


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