# Winter tyres/chains/studs/stay-at-home



## RogerS (24 Nov 2010)

Has anyone done much research lately? 

Are winter tyres that much better than normal tyres? 

My sense is that because we usually end up with a mixture of partly/fully cleared roads that one would be forever putting on chains and removing them.


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## knappers (24 Nov 2010)

Winter tyres definitely work. Huge difference. As to whether we get enough snow in the UK to justify the cost of an extra set of wheels / tyres is debatable. In the North, maybe, but in the girly Midlands / South, probably not. No point in you being able to move if the road is blocked by muppets in their 3 series's anyway!!

Si.


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## Dibs-h (24 Nov 2010)

Rog

Just ordered my winter tyres - set of 4. Thankfully I have a set of spare wheels so will just swap them over come March.

Apparently the winter tyres outperform Summer tyres at temps below 7degrees C and on Snow & Ice.

As to the cost - depends on whether getting to work has cost implications or coming a cropper as the tyres probably cost less than the impact on most folks insurance (excess & increased premiums).

HIH

Dibs


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## Titus A Duxass (24 Nov 2010)

I second that.
Winter tyres are the norm over here.
They are not mandatory but....

I run Hankook WR400, they give more road noise but are sure footed in snow.


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## flounder (24 Nov 2010)

As Dibs states, Winter tyres should be thought of more in terms of cold weather tyres rather than snow tyres. I work for a motor manufacturer and we carried out some tests last year in mid winter and in just cold and wet weather the difference was impressive, but in snow it was remarkable. It is worth noting that in warmer conditions the performance is worse than regular tyres. The cost of the tyres, although initially is an additional investment, over the course of time the overall costs are similar as when you are wearing out your winter tyres you are not wearing out your regular ones. For most people the other issue to consider is where to store a set of 4 wheels and tyres!


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## RogerS (24 Nov 2010)

This review looks useful

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/20 ... e-Test.htm


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## dedee (24 Nov 2010)

Roger,

stock up the larder and the drinks cupboard and stay at home. My FIL users snow tyres here for his annual sojourn to the mountains and undoubtedly they are excellent. In the UK though I reckon if you go out the roads will either be blocked as mentioned already or some muppet will lose control and drive into you. Different of course if you really must go out for work etc but unless they are compulsory and everyone uses them whats the point - the snow will clear after a few days anyway.

Andy


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## Steve Jones (24 Nov 2010)

Anybody use snow socks ?

I did notice the local paramedic car using them in this area last winter, don't know how effective they are.

Steve


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## RogerS (24 Nov 2010)

Just had a quote for four Vredesten Wintrak 4 Extreme (don't you just love marketing speak!) for £460 all in.. Gulp... :shock:

He was also trying to sell me the idea of getting 235 x 70R16 instead of 225 (because I think that that was what he had in stock). Does it make any odds to go up to 235 ?


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## Dibs-h (24 Nov 2010)

RogerS":9uuw422a said:


> Just had a quote for four Vredesten Wintrak 4 Extreme (don't you just love marketing speak!) for £460 all in.. Gulp... :shock:



I went for 4 Kumho KW27's which aren't exactly at the [email protected] end of the spectrum and they're £320 delivered for 17" wheels.

HIH

Dibs

p.s. Or some Hankook in 225's for £73 each (delivered). Drop me a PM if you want the details of the supplier.


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## RogerS (24 Nov 2010)

Silly question but how did you fit them? Yourself?


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## Dibs-h (24 Nov 2010)

RogerS":2oe2gsxu said:


> Silly question but how did you fit them? Yourself?



My chum with a tyre place will swap them over for £5 each. Most places - other than the big chains shouldn't charge more than £10 each - that's to swap them over and balance, etc.

Dibs


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## Shane (24 Nov 2010)

Steve Jones":2nc47jdw said:


> Anybody use snow socks ?
> 
> I did notice the local paramedic car using them in this area last winter, don't know how effective they are.
> 
> Steve



I'll let you know in due course. I ordered a pair last year but by the time they arrived through the post the snow had cleared :lol:


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## dickm (24 Nov 2010)

Fitted mine today! Bought a set a couple of years ago, complete with wheels, from a guy who had swapped his Golf for something bigger. Cost under £100, and I can swap them on and off for myself. Put them on when the first snow is forecast, and off again the following April when the worst should be past! 
I've no real idea whether they are that much more effective than "normal" tyres, as it's difficult to test it for yourself. My* impression* during the snow last year was that they were better on snow, but no real improvement on solid ice. I've got Vredestein Snow Tracs on the back and Falken something on the front. Had to buy two extra wheels for SWMBOs Polo, which have Matador winter tyres fitted by the local tyre guys - more expensive up here than the south, it seems!
When the snow really gets going, I keep a set of chains in the car just so as to be able to get up the hill to our house if the worst comes to the worst, but so far haven't had to use them.


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## paulm (24 Nov 2010)

Isn't the point of winter tyres that they dramatically improve grip and braking distances in cold and wet weather generally, and of course therefore in snow as well, so you would use them throughout the winter season and not just when snow is expected, they have significant benefits in winter even when there is no snow ?

I've recently changed to a Jeep so hoping to get some snow to have a play and see how much difference the 4wd and low ratio makes compared to my old car  I'll be gutted if we don't get some bad weather to try it out properly :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


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## jasonB (24 Nov 2010)

You don't really want to be using low range in snow, keep it for where you need high torque like very steep hills, towing/pulling or where engine braking is best for decending steep hills without having to touch the brakes.

In 4 low you are more likely to spin up the wheels and loose traction or when decending the engine will not allow the wheels to turn fast enough when decending effectively making the skid, this is when you have to accelerate going down hill to let them catch up with teh road speed.

If it has a central or axle diff locks then they will be of use but unlock as soon as you get onto anything grippy.

Jason


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## Dodge (24 Nov 2010)

I've been put on standby with 4x4 response to assist the ambulance service etc if we get lots of the white stuff.

My Landrover is all ready to play - lets just hope we get the snow over here in Norfolk

Rog


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## blurk99 (24 Nov 2010)

Steve Jones":o34kaspo said:


> Anybody use snow socks ?
> 
> I did notice the local paramedic car using them in this area last winter, don't know how effective they are.
> 
> Steve



had mine delivered right in the middle of the worst of it last year - best invention that i've seen in years, got the little car up some really steep snow covered hills around chipping norton whilst everyone else was staring at me, just remember to take them off when you reach a gritted surface, and i don't know how well they'd work on RWD - maybe you need 1 for each wheel?? anyway, they're going in the boot this week ~ last year i went to work in bright sunshine and then spent 5 hours trying to get the last 2 miles home


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## paulm (24 Nov 2010)

jasonB":2dnze2i6 said:


> You don't really want to be using low range in snow, keep it for where you need high torque like very steep hills, towing/pulling or where engine braking is best for decending steep hills without having to touch the brakes.
> 
> In 4 low you are more likely to spin up the wheels and loose traction or when decending the engine will not allow the wheels to turn fast enough when decending effectively making the skid, this is when you have to accelerate going down hill to let them catch up with teh road speed.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice Jason, only had it a couple of weeks so much still to learn. Like driving it so far though  

Cheers, Paul


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## Ironballs (24 Nov 2010)

I invested in a set of steel rims and winter tyres last year (Nokians), best decision ever. My Focus is one of the worst cars in snow and ice, comparable to a sledge, once winter tyres were fitted it was able to outperform most 4x4s and ate snowy hill starts for breakfast.

Still struggle on sheet ice but do have more grip than ordinary tyres, ie I made it down the hill and round the corner, the Jag in front of me didn't. I plan to run them Nov to Mar and fitted mine again 2 weeks ago


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## Lons (24 Nov 2010)

paulm":3nkmkkjq said:


> I've recently changed to a Jeep so hoping to get some snow to have a play and see how much difference the 4wd and low ratio makes compared to my old car  I'll be gutted if we don't get some bad weather to try it out properly :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Paul



Bad weather in Hampshire :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: need to move North for that Paul.

It's snowing like hell here at the minute BTW :-({|=



> No point in you being able to move if the road is blocked by muppets in their 3 series's anyway!!
> 
> Si.



[-( I beg your pardon sir - I am not a muppet (hammer) - just don't use it in the snow & ice ( pinch the wifes' mini cooper instead , much to her annoyance ) :lol: :lol: 

cheers

Bob


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## oddsocks (24 Nov 2010)

if you ever need convincing look at this youtube video of summer/all weather and winter tyres on an ice rink...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

I fitted Nokian cold weather tyres to my wife's BMW last weekend and she took me out today and she 'threw' the car around and it just stuck to the road far better than the 6mm tread summer tyres that were fitted before. I bought a spare set of rims and will use 'winter' tyres from Nov - March.

The misconception is that winter means snow - as soon as the ambient air temp drops below 7 degrees normal (i.e summer) tyres get too stiff and cold weather /winter tyres remain pliable. The tread pattern is also optimised for mud and snow (the M_S marking).

Watch the video (it just so happens to be BMW cars)

When the air temp gets back above 7degrees the winter tyres will still work but their softer compound means the wear quicker...but they need to be replaced after 5 years or 4mm whatever.

edited as I just read Ironballs post and that tells the same story!


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## paulm (25 Nov 2010)

Lons":14zr2boh said:


> Bad weather in Hampshire :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: need to move North for that Paul.
> 
> It's snowing like hell here at the minute BTW :-({|=
> 
> ...



You would be surprised Bob, we live on pretty much the highest part of the South Downs, so can get a lot of snow in the area when there isn't any a few miles away. Not as much as you Northeners though obviously, but more, and more often, than most down here !

Got snowbound on the drive for several days last year and also had to abandon the car and hike a few miles home in the snow at one point, great fun :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


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## dickm (25 Nov 2010)

About 2 inches of lying snow here!

That's a fortnight earlier than last year, and look what that turned into.......

Just hope you folks asking for snow to try out your new 4X4s get it. 
AND KEEP IT DOWN SOUTH


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## Dodge (25 Nov 2010)

dickm":13o8l08x said:


> About 2 inches of lying snow here!
> 
> That's a fortnight earlier than last year, and look what that turned into.......
> 
> ...



I smiled when I read this - I bought my wife an ex military land rover 90 soft top a few months ago and she adores it - we only got a few odd flurries of snow here today and when it stopped she nearly cried saying it wasnt fair that you guys up North were hogging it!!!


:lol: :lol:


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## Lons (25 Nov 2010)

paulm":37vux08j said:


> You would be surprised Bob, we live on pretty much the highest part of the South Downs, so can get a lot of snow in the area when there isn't any a few miles away. Not as much as you Northeners though obviously, but more, and more often, than most down here !
> 
> Got snowbound on the drive for several days last year and also had to abandon the car and hike a few miles home in the snow at one point, great fun :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Paul



:lol: :lol: 
I wouldn't Paul. My wife spent her teenage years living in Rottingdean near Brighton and her parents were there for quite a while after we got married so spent a lot of time exploring the south including the high downs.

Just for comparison though - we had a good 6 inches of snow overnight and a couple more during today. It's snowing now with more forcast and temp down to minus 4 deg.

BTW - I know a number of those "muppets" who don't know how to drive a rear wheel drive car ( the woman I watched put her 1 series in the ditch last night is a prime example)
I'm old enough to remember and own an early 60s mini  which was my one and only FWD.

Used to chuck a bag of sand in the boot of the old cortina etc and no probs  

I only hope we don't get another winter like the last :!: 

Bob


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## big soft moose (25 Nov 2010)

Ironballs":caoed2hp said:


> My Focus is one of the worst cars in snow and ice, comparable to a sledge,



strange that , my focus estate is quite good in the snow - last year I was one of the few cars to get out of the end of our road, the wife, who at the time was driving an MX5 didnt even get out of the drive.

This year shes driving the focus and ive got a peugot partner van, which are reputed to be rubbish in the snow, so we'll see - it may come down to driving experience/ability - I drive off road a lot for work so i'm used to slippery surfaces.

That said if i get sufficient warning i'll leave the van at work and bring the ford ranger 4x4 home instead


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## Dodge (25 Nov 2010)

big soft moose":t0yrnpgd said:


> my focus estate is quite good in the snow



Ah yes but how many tons of timber did you have in the back of it :lol: :lol:


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## Henning (26 Nov 2010)

In Norway, everyone has to have 2 sets of tyres for their car if they want to use it in winter. 
The one time i was caught out with summer tyres on my car when it snowed it most definitely showed a HUGE difference. 
I don't know about the UK though. 
Me, i drive a 4- wheel drive, have winter tyres and a set of 2 snowchains in my car at all times. 
Funny how different things can be between countries... 

My car is a "winter" model too... :lol:


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## RogerS (26 Nov 2010)

Talking of Scandinavia, I was surprised to see how well the two Hyundai Santa Fe's (same as my car) fared on snow in episodes of Wallander. No obvious chains that I could see but they handled very well in the snow. I want what they've got!


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## RogerS (26 Nov 2010)

Winter tyres seem in short supply...well, at least in my size. I've been offered Hankook W310 but can find little info on them. Has anyone used them ?


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## big soft moose (26 Nov 2010)

RogerS":1g5tjlry said:


> Talking of Scandinavia, I was surprised to see how well the two Hyundai Santa Fe's (same as my car) fared on snow in episodes of Wallander. No obvious chains that I could see but they handled very well in the snow. I want what they've got!



I thought you had an RX8 , which i'd expect to be truly awful in the snow.


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## RogerS (26 Nov 2010)

big soft moose":3k5b81i1 said:


> RogerS":3k5b81i1 said:
> 
> 
> > Talking of Scandinavia, I was surprised to see how well the two Hyundai Santa Fe's (same as my car) fared on snow in episodes of Wallander. No obvious chains that I could see but they handled very well in the snow. I want what they've got!
> ...



Yes



big soft moose":3k5b81i1 said:


> which i'd expect to be truly awful in the snow.



Actually pretty good as it has DSC ..whatever that is. Also very good at going through floods.

It's the Honda S2000 that isn't very good in snow :wink:


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## Lons (26 Nov 2010)

This was the state of my motor this morning. I had already cleared the drive and it covered again as I was doing it ](*,) 







It won't be going anywhere soon :lol: 

Got another 4" after that so around 1 foot since overnight Wed.
Snowing like hell at the minute and forcast for much more over the weekend so guess I'll be catching up with the list of jobs around the house  

From the drive entrance






and over back garden from upstairs window






News said its the earliest snow for 17 years - I'm gonna emigrate :idea: 

cheers

Bob


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## CNC Paul (27 Nov 2010)

I have just winterized my Toyota Hiace........I put 10 sheets of 18mm MDF in the back 8)


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## RogerS (29 Nov 2010)

Reading all the various reports and reviews I came to the conclusion that there really are different formulations designed for different winter environments. Also there are the marketing tweaks, naturally.

So I emailed the Tech Director of Nokian and received a reply by return ...

Nokian WR G2 SUV 225/70R16 107 H XL for the UK. 

That's the good news. the bad news? No stock for 8 weeks. :shock: 

Continentals' recommendations are ContiCrossContact Winter.


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## Dibs-h (29 Nov 2010)

RogerS":3tyr2fa2 said:


> Reading all the various reports and reviews I came to the conclusion that there really are different formulations designed for different winter environments. Also there are the marketing tweaks, naturally.
> 
> So I emailed the Tech Director of Nokian and received a reply by return ...
> 
> ...



PM Sent.


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## Lons (29 Nov 2010)

> Actually pretty good as it has DSC ..whatever that is. Also very good at going through floods.



That's interesting about the RX8 Roger. :? 

Mine advises turning off the DSC in snow (in a number of situations) to gain traction.
Tried it and it does work on my 320d

Bob


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## Harbo (29 Nov 2010)

PaulM - you might get your wish tomorrow according to the forecast?

I tried to but some Rock Salt today without success - do any of the Sheds sell it?

Rod


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## RogerS (29 Nov 2010)

Lons":1zbyugdy said:


> > Actually pretty good as it has DSC ..whatever that is. Also very good at going through floods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Switching off or leaving it on? 

We had it 'on' a few years back in snow and as long as you gave some gentle revs and didn't try to 'help' it by messing about with the throttle it was quite good.


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## Dibs-h (29 Nov 2010)

Harbo":1jgrq3td said:


> PaulM - you might get your wish tomorrow according to the forecast?
> 
> I tried to but some Rock Salt today without success - do any of the Sheds sell it?
> 
> Rod



Your local Wickes is probably the most likely one. Although of it has snowed - they'll have no doubt sold out.

Dibs


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## paulm (29 Nov 2010)

Harbo":2ozxfusm said:


> PaulM - you might get your wish tomorrow according to the forecast?
> 
> I tried to but some Rock Salt today without success - do any of the Sheds sell it?
> 
> Rod



Might well do Rod  

Only thing is the jeep is getting picked up tomorrow and will be off the road for a week or so getting some body work repairs done after a bit of a tussle with a council refuse truck  Not my fault and all covered by insurance though and I am supposed to get a hire 4x4 of some description for the duration so will see what turns up.

We picked up a few bags of salt/grit stuff from the local coal merchants last week, don't know if you have something similar close by ? Was a bit of a rip-off though to be honest, as you might expect when buying something at a time of peak demand I guess  :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


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## RogerS (29 Nov 2010)

Dibs-h":v2owzehp said:


> Harbo":v2owzehp said:
> 
> 
> > PaulM - you might get your wish tomorrow according to the forecast?
> ...



My local focus does at £16 a smallish bag


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## Dibs-h (29 Nov 2010)

RogerS":2zms13yk said:


> My local focus does at £16 a smallish bag



I've still got 4 or 5 large bags from last year - so not terribly bothered. Wickes usually sell bags the same size as most builders merchants sell river sand in, <£5 each. Although, now that the winter tyres have turned up and will be fitted this evening, even less bothered. :lol:

Dibs


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## RogerS (29 Nov 2010)

Dibs-h":3sz3l2go said:


> ...... Although, now that the winter tyres have turned up and will be fitted this evening, even less bothered. :lol:
> 
> Dibs



 Yes, you guys do 'do' snow quite well up there. I remember coming down off that exit from the M62 IIRC and saw that permanent sign with lights against which roads were blocked with snow!


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## goldeneyedmonkey (29 Nov 2010)

Winter tyres are in short supply it seems, 400% increase in sales on last year and apparently they're putting insurance premiums UP for some people!

See here @ AutoExpress.

Cheers_Dan.


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## RogerS (29 Nov 2010)

That's absolutely typical of those money-grabbing financial shites.

EDIT: How can they claim that you have 'modified' your vehicle by fitting winter tyres? By extrapolation that means that if you fit any other make of tyre to that which came with the vehicle or even any other type within the same brand then you can be said to have 'modified' your vehicle.

And what is supposed to happen when the tyre manufacturer stops making the original 'fit'?


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## Dibs-h (30 Nov 2010)

Got mine fitted yesterday evening and tootled into work this morning even going along snowed in streets that I would have given a wide berth before.

Stopping - as long as you drive to the conditions, no slipping or skidding, so very impressed.

As for telling the insurance companies - kiss my @rse they can!

Dibs


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## Ironballs (30 Nov 2010)

Agree, don't plan on telling my insurance company as I don't think they need to know. Like you I took all the back roads and short cuts to avoid the queues, had great fun overtaking all the cars slipping up the hill coming out of Harehills


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## oddsocks (30 Nov 2010)

Have a look in the car manual - most list a winter tyre option (it would be as M+S = Mud and Snow). My wife's BMW has that listed and we just bought the correct size Nokians and fitted them to the original 17" alloys. In the summer I had already informed the insurance company that I was swapping to 18" alloys and tyres and there was no change in premium as long I was within the ranges listed as options in the manual (and for the BMW520 that covers 16" up to 19" with M+S at 17")

I bought them from pneu online in October -they ship in from Holland to a local independent garage and took about 4 days to arrive

Dave


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## Ironballs (30 Nov 2010)

You're right Dave, as long as you buy tyres with the correct speed ratings and correct diameters if you muck about with smaller rims and deeper profiles then you're fine. Some good online circumference % calculators if you do go down that route, always worth considering if you can get smaller rims and you're struggling to get tyres in your normal aspect ratio


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## dickm (25 Dec 2010)

Sorry to resurrect this thread again, but I had an amusing and enlightening experience today; went to the local country park to walk off too much food, and discovered that off the main road, the plough hadn't been through and there was a good 8-10" of lying snow, more or less undriven. Except for the big Audi Allroad that was ahead of me, with all four wheels spinning wildly. A group of us pushed him out of the worst of it, and I noticed that the car behind me was spinning wheels too. Drove the Golf steadily forward, with the chin spoiler acting as a snowplough, and didn't have a moment's wheelspin. Suggests that winter tyres (Falkens on the front, slightly more worn Vredesteins on the back) are a better bet than 4wd and summer tyres!


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## paulm (25 Dec 2010)

dickm":19tlebjn said:


> Except for the big Audi Allroad ...... Suggests that winter tyres (Falkens on the front, slightly more worn Vredesteins on the back) are a better bet than 4wd and summer tyres!



That's not a _proper_ 4wd though Dick, just a mumsmobile for the school run :wink: 

Cheers, Paul (hoping for some more snow down south to play in :mrgreen: :lol: ) :ho2 :deer


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## Ironballs (26 Dec 2010)

You're right Dick, though the woman in the Frontera I overtook last year because she was driving in the snow too slowly didn't agree. Well, I assume she didn't agree judging by the nob-head gestures and mouthed obscenities


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## RogerS (26 Dec 2010)

Had enough of snow now. Bored. Too cold. Need sun. Need lots of sun .....








In my dreams.....sigh...


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