# Did you pocket hole project wobble then fall apart?



## Amateur (12 Feb 2021)

Well it's been some time since pocket hole joinery has been talked about.
Wife bought me a jig a few years back but it's just sat on the shelf.
I've never used it but having to make a kids bedroom desk now it does seem appropriate.
So my question is this, If you built something using this system how well has the end product held up over time? Has it fallen apart? Or is it solid as a rock still


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## Fitzroy (12 Feb 2021)

Heathen, burn in the fires of hell for mentioning such an abomination. Now that's out the way. 

I've no experience of using a dedicated pocket hole screwing system but built plenty of things over the years with screws rather than proper joinery. Many of these have adequately stood the test of time, those that have survived the best are where I put sufficient thought into how the piece would work regards to imparted loads and the screwed structure. I expect it's like other joinery, if you understand the limitations of any joint and only use it where appropriate it'll be fine. With only a pocket hole to join stuff, you'll need to tailor your structure to the joint, rather than pick the joint appropriate for your structure.

Fitz.


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## Jacob (12 Feb 2021)

Pocket hole joinery is p*ss poor. It's only for quick bodges or cheap furniture. Nails often as good.
Though you see it a lot in tables where the top is held by pocketed screws up through the apron. They work OK as there is no bending or torsional stress.
nb it's easy to do pocket holes without a jig and special kit. You start the hole at 90º . As soon as it's ledged in a few mm lift the drill to send it down at the screw angle. Then countersink your new hole and drop in a screw.


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## sometimewoodworker (12 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Well it's been some time since pocket hole joinery has been talked about.
> Wife bought me a jig a few years back but it's just sat on the shelf.
> I've never used it but having to make a kids bedroom desk now it does seem appropriate.
> So my question is this, If you built something using this system how well has the end product held up over time? Has it fallen apart? Or is it solid as a rock still


None of the projects I’ve used pocket hole screws on have had any problems, going on 10 years now.


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## AES (12 Feb 2021)

Well I have a Kreg jig, (and their screws) and while I've only used it for "rough joinery" (about all I'm capable of really), IMO it's the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Just as Fitzroy says, you have to think about where to put the screws, and into which piece in which direction, but with the Kreg system, all that thinking is done for you - depth & position of holes, to suit the thickness of the boards, etc, is ALL matked out on the jig and you just set everything as per the instructions/markings on the jig. Simples!

AND BTW, although they're expensive, I ALWAYS use the Kreg screws - I have NO truck with CS screws and/or with washers under the head. If one thinks about the forces involved, not using the special screws is complete nonsense IMO. AND I always glue too (PVA).

So, definitely NOT for fine furniture (but I'm not into that anyway) but some of the workshop cupboards (a bit like kitchen cupboards) and other bits I'vee made are fine - made when I first bought the Kreg, roughly 10 years ago now.

If you're not talking Kreg though I can't help you.

HTH

P.S. I've just seen Jacob's post. IMO, complete rubbish. Sometimes, somebody does come up with something new, and it IS an improvement on traditional methods - PROVIDED it's used properly (including the screws)!


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## sometimewoodworker (12 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> Pocket hole joinery is p*ss poor. It's only for quick bodges or cheap furniture.


Pocket hole joinery is as good as the project it’s used on. It isn’t suitable in every situation or for every joint, but if used in the correct places it is excellent.


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## Jacob (12 Feb 2021)

AES said:


> ..... Sometimes, somebody does come up with something new, and it IS an improvement on traditional methods - PROVIDED it's used properly (including the screws)!


It isn't new. It's been in use probably since the screw was invented. 
It'll do for some things yes but basically a weak joint not far removed from simply using nails


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## jcassidy (12 Feb 2021)

I've never seen the point of buying a jig, all my pocket screws are done by eye using the 'start at 90 and then redrill at whatever' technique. 

Anyway the one word of caution is to beware using a powered driver to drive the screws home because you can burst the pocket, which is a bit harder to do when screwing straight through. Especially on ply or chipboard. I've busted many a project doing just that. Set the clutch down to just enough to tighten the screw.

Other than that, knock yourself out!


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## porker (12 Feb 2021)

The other thing that pocket holes are good for is removing the need for a clamp if you glue the joint as well. Sometimes clamping can be difficult and putting in a hidden pocket hole holds it together while the glue dries. The only tricky bit is not letting the joint move while tightening the screw as the angles tend to try to pull the joint out of alignment. Have been known to put a couple of biscuits in to stop this.


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## AES (12 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> It isn't new. It's been in use probably since the screw was invented.
> It'll do for some things yes but basically a weak joint not far removed from simply using nails



The Kreg jig IS (relatively) new, and it is to the Kreg that I was referring.


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## Rorschach (12 Feb 2021)

Nothing wrong with pocket holes when used in the right situation. They are a fast, easy and cheap method of doing a hidden fastening in cabinet construction. You can do them freehand but why risk messing it up when a cheap jig is only a few £'s. It's like dowelling, you don't need a jig to do that but a cheap one makes life a lot easier and the results are more consistent and less risky. Most of my use for them has been repair as I don't build a lot of furniture, they have allowed me to carry out some repairs that would have been really tricky otherwise.

I have even used them to fix a set of mini "floating" shelves to a wall and they worked great (light load obviously).


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## recipio (12 Feb 2021)

They are simply not strong enough to be used in any joint that will be stressed. I like to think that anything I make will be around in 100 years and not held together by a pair of rusty screws ! The only exception I can see is making banks of shelving or faceframes and I am struggling to find anything cheaper or faster.


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## Snettymakes (12 Feb 2021)

I use them a fair bit, but only ever with glue. I find them excellent for carcasses as you can hide the pocket holes on the outside where they will be covered up by other carcasses, wall or end panel. It's the lack of clamps that I find particularly useful.

As for the utility of a jig, I wish people would consider the value of things for people that haven't accrued decades of experience. A jig that guarantees accuracy is absolutely invaluable for somebody entering the trade/hobby.


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## Rorschach (12 Feb 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> I use them a fair bit, but only ever with glue. I find them excellent for carcasses as you can hide the pocket holes on the outside where they will be covered up by other carcasses, wall or end panel. It's the lack of clamps that I find particularly useful.
> 
> As for the utility of a jig, I wish people would consider the value of things for people that haven't accrued decades of experience. A jig that guarantees accuracy is absolutely invaluable for somebody entering the trade/hobby.



Yes not needing clamps is great for repairs (my main use). Sometimes a clamp just isn't possible in a confined space.

Regarding jigs, it isn't just lacking the skill. Imagine you have 20 holes to make, you get 19 perfect by eye and on the 20th you go a little too deep and the screw pokes out on the finished face of the project. It's like drilling holes, I can drill holes at 90degrees really quite well and for a one off I might not use the drill press, but if I have multiples to do and messing one up would spoil the project you can bet that I use the drill press or a jig to do them.


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## AES (12 Feb 2021)

@recipio: OK, each to his own, but you said QUOTE: .... not held together by a pair of rusty screws ! .... UNQUOTE.

While I said, QUOTE: PROVIDED it's used properly (including the screws)! UNQUOTE:

So I ask have you ever used the Kreg screws? Reason for asking is that although I'm not a metallurgist I DO know something about plating and steel. Kreg screws ARE plated and although it's daft to say they'd "never" rust, personally I can't think of any fastener which is plated to a better standard for its use, and that includes high-tech aero-industry fasteners. Certainly I've seen nothing better (plating standards) and few if any equals on the "domestic" market.

It's obvious from the posts to date that some people don't like pocket holes/jigs at all (which is fine, "each to his own" and all that). But if you're going to "damn" something just because you don't like it recipio you should at least come up with a "real" reason and not some fatuous nonsense about rusty screws and limited strength (I also said use PVA).

I stick to my original reply up above: Used properly, including the proper screws, and for the "right" job, the Kreg Pocket Hole jig is a VERY useful - and "relatively new" - invention, well worth the money IMO - AND, used as described, the end results are certainly strong enough for any "normal" usage.


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## artie (12 Feb 2021)

I've used them a few times.
They have done the job and holding up ok.

I used glue as well.


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## Chippymint (12 Feb 2021)

AES. I support your view and many others. They are fine for certain applications but personally I wouldn't use them where the wood is going to be stressed or if the hole could be seen. I mainly use traditional methods. 

I've seen some top-notch cabinet making companies use these joints when building aspects of cabinets such as bespoke kitchen unit frames. To be honest they looked great. 

Assuming one has the correct screw for the job and the hole depth is correct, where it can go wrong is when insufficient clamping pressure cannot or is not applied prior to running the screw home. Sometimes this is due to the two faces not being true as they are not square or the pressure is insufficient or out of alignment. Also, one can overtighten the screws, especially with softer wood. 

Ref screws. I use a combination of Kreg and Trend screws. Both are very good. The plating is either chrome or antique bronze finish (not sure if this is the true term but suffice for identifying). Not had a problem with either.

I dont think there is anything wrong with the jigs. They make light work of doing this job and once set up correctly, you can get an impressive production run. 

All trades evolve and it's always good to see an invention that can make life a little easier.


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## AES (12 Feb 2021)

Thanks Chippymint! I guess I'm just not "the bloke" when it comes to fine cabinetry (nor production runs!) but anything that speeds up my snail pace while STILL maintaining accuracy has got to be good for me.

BTW, thanks for the "tip" about Trend screws. Didn't know they do them, and "real" Kregs are difficult to get hold of here (Kreg don't seem to have any stockists in Switzerland). 

Cheers


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## MusicMan (12 Feb 2021)

I've used them a few times but not when there was much stress. The first was for fake laboratory benches for a film set, made quickly and cheaply out of whole sheets of chipboard with melamine finish. They just had to hang together and support some electronic equipment, which they did fine until the assistant director leaped on one to get at a higher part of the set. Some emergency repairs and cover-up white paint were needed! At the end of filming the whole set went in the tip. Amazing what you can get away with on a film set. Did the job. The other was a set of shelves to fit exactly in an alcove. The shelves basically interlocked and supported themselves once in the alcove but pocket screws were handy to hold the structure in shape while I manoeuvred it in position.

Quick, do the job, but won't take stress on their own.


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## TheTiddles (12 Feb 2021)

I made some cheap MDF wardrobes (second hand hinges, handles made from pipe offcuts from work, I think the paint was the most expensive component) entirely held together with pocket screws, they moved house 4 times in total, being completely taken apart and assembled each time, I think the person we gave them to years later is still using them

Aidan


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## Amateur (12 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> So my question is this, If you built something using this system how well has the end product held up over time? Has it fallen apart? Or is it solid as a rock still



Seem to be a few folk saying they are rubbish without actually telling us what they made and what failed or stood strong.

When using conventional journey I sometimes wonder if in fact we do over engineer structure joints.
A bit like when cars suddenly changed to lightweight structures, sub frames etc.
I remember my Dad had an original Austin Cambridge. Like a tank to drive.
Then changed it to a Ford Escort mk1.... 
" Never catch on, not solid enough, things will be dropping off" he would grumble.
If he could only see the metal body sections replaced with plastic on todays offerings.

In general any thing I've made in wood for anyone they never question how it's made. They like to know what type of wood it is and that's about it.


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## TheUnicorn (12 Feb 2021)

I don't have jig, but on the odd occasion I'd needed to use a pocket hole, and access allows, I've drilled into the wood in the opposite direction that I would screw, ie I've put a pilot hole in from the end of the wood, which allows me a better control of where the screw will come out, then I just roll in a countersink from the normal direction (start at 90 degrees then roll the drill over until I'm lined up with the screw hole) and put the screw in. 

If I was offered a decent jig I'm sure I'd use it on occasion, I think there is a place for them.


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## hunter27 (12 Feb 2021)

We have just made an CNC router enclosure for my son from 25mm thick mrmdf, using, for the first time pocket hole screws and dowels, the base was 4'X4' and at around 30" high so it was quite heavy. I was reasonably impressed with my new Wolfcraft pocket hole jig and dowel jig that I was given for a Christmas present (by my son) 
One big advantage in this case was that I made it in my garage but he could disassemble to transport it to his garage for re assembly, so I think they are great for certain jobs.


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## harryc (12 Feb 2021)

Built all my workshop cabinets inc drawers with a pocket hole jig and glue, still all standing admittedly only been a couple of years.


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## johnnyb (12 Feb 2021)

pocket holes at least the kreg system seems pretty sophisticated( coarse or fine screws for instance) they can become misaligned but I reckon there pretty good strength wise. some don't seem to bite as well as others.


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## Garno (12 Feb 2021)

recipio said:


> They are simply not strong enough to be used in any joint that will be stressed. I like to think that anything I make will be around in 100 years and not held together by a pair of rusty screws ! The only exception I can see is making banks of shelving or faceframes and I am struggling to find anything cheaper or faster.



100 years, I call it a result if the stuff I make lasts 100 days


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## TheTiddles (12 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Seem to be a few folk saying they are rubbish without actually telling us what they made and what failed or stood strong.
> 
> When using conventional journey I sometimes wonder if in fact we do over engineer structure joints.
> A bit like when cars suddenly changed to lightweight structures, sub frames etc.
> ...



If you watch an old film the car crashes are interesting, the cars stop dead and stay relatively intact, look closely at the people inside, they go flying.

The same regulations that have brought about far larger and lighter cars with plastic mouldings as bumpers and flexible bonnets instead of chromed steel bolted to a chassis are also responsible for your child probably surviving that 30mph hit with a concussion instead of probably being zipped up in a bag, they also pollute drastically less, so even if you have nothing to do with cars, they’re better for you.

Back to pocket screws... they’re the right solution for the right problem. A bit like duct tape, you’d not want to see it on a surgeons tray but for ducting, it really is just the ticket

Aidan


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## sometimewoodworker (13 Feb 2021)

jcassidy said:


> Anyway the one word of caution is to beware using a powered driver to drive the screws home because you can burst the pocket, which is a bit harder to do when screwing straight through. Especially on ply or chipboard. I've busted many a project doing just that. Set the clutch down to just enough to tighten the screw.


Since I’ve just been putting together a project that used a few pocket hole screws in a couple of the joints and used an impact driver on them and on all the projects I’ve used them on I’ve never had a screw pull through, your experience suggests to me that your technique of 


jcassidy said:


> I've never seen the point of buying a jig, all my pocket screws are done by eye using the 'start at 90 and then redrill at whatever' technique.


is somewhat lacking.

I have had the screw thread strip the wood it’s going into because the wood was too soft and the screw had to be short to get a good hold, but never a pull through.

A jig combined with a stepped drill and the correct screws has a significant benefit, take out the correct depth (that’s what the drill stop’s for) correct format hole (that’s the stepped drill) and correct flat under headed screw (why I use Kreg) and you have the reasons why you don’t have the holding power in the pockets that I and others have.

But if your method is good enough for your projects and you don’t need the holding power then it is the right one for you.


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## sometimewoodworker (13 Feb 2021)

porker said:


> The only tricky bit is not letting the joint move while tightening the screw as the angles tend to try to pull the joint out of alignment. Have been known to put a couple of biscuits in to stop this.


Since I don’t have biscuits I’ve used dominos for exactly that job.


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## robgul (13 Feb 2021)

Another positive comment for pocket holes - using a Trend jig. I do usually use glue as well - especially on the rare occasion I stoop as low as using MDF (but that's really just for lack of confidence in the structural integrity of stuff made with MDF . . ._ I can hear @petermillards hackles rising!!_ )


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## Rorschach (13 Feb 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> If you watch an old film the car crashes are interesting, the cars stop dead and stay relatively intact, look closely at the people inside, they go flying.
> 
> The same regulations that have brought about far larger and lighter cars with plastic mouldings as bumpers and flexible bonnets instead of chromed steel bolted to a chassis are also responsible for your child probably surviving that 30mph hit with a concussion instead of probably being zipped up in a bag, they also pollute drastically less, so even if you have nothing to do with cars, they’re better for you.



Very well put. I would much rather walk away from a crash and have the car written off than spend my life in a wheelchair eating through a straw and saying "well at least the car only needed a new bumper and a bit of paint".


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## pe2dave (13 Feb 2021)

Kreg user, quite happy with the results and it has stood the test of time.
Quite curious about the new 'peanut' fasteners Intelligent Fixings | Peanut 2


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## Rorschach (13 Feb 2021)

Regarding glue, you might find this interesting.

Myself I do use glue when possible but as I have said I am mostly doing repairs so quite often the pocket screw is being used as a clamp as well as a fixing.


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## Amateur (13 Feb 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Kreg user, quite happy with the results and it has stood the test of time.
> Quite curious about the new 'peanut' fasteners Intelligent Fixings | Peanut



off topic....

but that Peanut jig looks far too complicated to me.


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## Robbo60 (13 Feb 2021)

I think pocket screw are great in the right situation (generally out of sight) The strength of the joint will depend somewhat on the type and thickness of the material you are joining (I think) e.g. joining 18mm ply will be stronger than 12mm MDF.
1. Because material stronger
2. The screws are longer
3. Or am I talking rubbish?
I've got Kreg jig but bought copy screws and they work just fine


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## bryan267 (13 Feb 2021)

My 6ft garden gate is held together with glue and screws in pocket holes made with a pocket hole drill bit rather than a jig. gets some traffic, bangs shut in the wind etc. Rails rest on or in stiles by cut outs not morticed , I suppose the feather boards nailed on also help keep it together. Neighbours gate installed after mine, shop bought and pretty, has broken 5 times in 5 years and full of patched up batons


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## novocaine (13 Feb 2021)

Modifications to kitchen carcass, pocket hole is perfect. 
3m tall wardrobes in mdf or similar, pocket hile is perfect, even better with a few biscuits (dont own a domino)
Builiding a bed frame, nope not the right tool for the job.


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## Ralfyfix (13 Feb 2021)

I’ve used Kreg pocket hole screws to make a number of drawers for my work shed using ply, MDF, chipboard and wood and varying from 75mm to 250mm high and 600mm deep with roller ball hinges. Absolutely magic and no problems despite some being heavily loaded. On some I have glued some of the joins.


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## jcassidy (13 Feb 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Since I’ve just been putting together a project that used a few pocket hole screws in a couple of the joints and used an impact driver on them and on all the projects I’ve used them on I’ve never had a screw pull through, your experience suggests to me that your technique of
> 
> But if your method is good enough for your projects and you don’t need the holding power then it is the right one for you.



I applaud your excellent technique and trigger control.


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## pe2dave (13 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> off topic....
> 
> but that Peanut jig looks far too complicated to me.


Have a look at the vids on their website. It's not too bad.


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## robgul (13 Feb 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Have a look at the vids on their website. It's not too bad.



I've seen the @petermillard and IF films and it does seem pretty simple and clever BUT at £170 just for the small jig (£400+ for the fully size) I would find it hard to justify for the small number of projects that I would see myself using it for - thus pocket holes do the job for the most part.


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## Amateur (13 Feb 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Have a look at the vids on their website.



They said that about Rubiks Cube and I still can't do that


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## Spectric (13 Feb 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Kreg user, quite happy with the results and it has stood the test of time.


Same again, use both the std Kreg jig and the HD version with no issues. I think the problem is that there is no one solution for everything, so some jobs suit pocket holes and others do not but I think the Kreg screws are very good.


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## Cordy (13 Feb 2021)

This small Coffee table/occasional stool was made a couple of years ago using 12 Pocket hole screws; Kreg jig
and Everbuild 502 Wood Glue 
Strong as a Flander’s mare


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## whatknot (13 Feb 2021)

I have to agree with you, I have the Kreg jig which I bought at a car boot before all this kerfuffle with covid, for the princely sum of £1 

I wasn't sure if I would do much with it so didn't want to spend out to much to use it

Bought the stepped drill on ebay, screws & drivers from Axminster (UJK)

Made my own plugs from dowel

Only item I have made with it so far is a learning tower for my grandson about 7 months ago, it has survived his punishing regime so far ;-) 

I was pleasantly surprised how good it was to use





AES said:


> Well I have a Kreg jig, (and their screws) and while I've only used it for "rough joinery" (about all I'm capable of really), IMO it's the greatest thing since sliced bread!


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## TheUnicorn (13 Feb 2021)

whatknot said:


> I have to agree with you, I have the Kreg jig which I bought at a car boot before all this kerfuffle with covid, for the princely sum of £1


£1, what a steal, so odd with car boots, its never a fair price, either incredibly cheap, or virtually full price and falling apart.

Looking forward to an afternoon strolling around in the sun, not buying overpriced junk, one day...


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## Doug B (13 Feb 2021)

After building my present workshop years ago I built a temporary work bench from 26mm mfc, it was solely joined with pocket hole screws & lasted years, it was still solid when I disassembled it & it had been well used to build loads of stuff for the new shop Including a new work bench.
The design of a project is key, a design that is inherently strong shouldn’t fail because it’s screwed together, it’s just a matter of getting the design right.


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## whatknot (13 Feb 2021)

It was a bargain I admit, I did advise on some prices for other things they were selling, large cramps etc so didn't feel to guilty 

Like you I am looking forward to afternoons wandering round boot sales




TheUnicorn said:


> £1, what a steal, so odd with car boots, its never a fair price, either incredibly cheap, or virtually full price and falling apart.
> 
> Looking forward to an afternoon strolling around in the sun, not buying overpriced junk, one day...


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## Rorschach (13 Feb 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> £1, what a steal, so odd with car boots, its never a fair price, either incredibly cheap, or virtually full price and falling apart.
> 
> Looking forward to an afternoon strolling around in the sun, not buying overpriced junk, one day...



Your experience is the same as mine then. I have bought tools worth £30 for 20p and seen people ask £30 for tools worth 20p. Crazy stuff.


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## whatknot (13 Feb 2021)

Yes, much like auctions, you see a nice thing go for a pittance and a piece of cheap rubbish go for a bundle just because two people wanted it

Mind you I have seen that on ebay where people pay more for a used item that you could get one new for 

Just people for you



Rorschach said:


> Your experience is the same as mine then. I have bought tools worth £30 for 20p and seen people ask £30 for tools worth 20p. Crazy stuff.


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## Lonsdale73 (13 Feb 2021)

Amateur said:


> Well it's been some time since pocket hole joinery has been talked about.
> Wife bought me a jig a few years back but it's just sat on the shelf.
> I've never used it but having to make a kids bedroom desk now it does seem appropriate.
> So my question is this, If you built something using this system how well has the end product held up over time? Has it fallen apart? Or is it solid as a rock still



I used a Kreg jig and screws to make my first shop cabinets. They've been taken apart to be repositioned and reassembled three times now and are still going strong. I don't have the jig anymore but I do have some 1" screws going cheap if you need any.


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## Terrytpot (13 Feb 2021)

robgul said:


> ..BUT at £170 just for the small jig (£400+ for the fully size) I would find it hard to justify..


I kinda feel the same about how much Kreg want for their plastic jigs so until I stumble over a bargain , Like Whatknot did, I'll stumble along without one.


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## petermillard (13 Feb 2021)

robgul said:


> I've seen the @petermillard and IF films and it does seem pretty simple and clever BUT at £170 just for the small jig (£400+ for the fully size) I would find it hard to justify for the small number of projects that I would see myself using it for - thus pocket holes do the job for the most part.


Just to clarify, it’s £170 (inc vat) for the mini jig & starter set (bit & connectors) and just to keep things on topic I have a pocket-hole jig that‘s priced around there, too. Back to the Peanut, it depends on wether you want a self-clamping invisible connector or not; if you don’t you don’t, but if you do then the peanut is far and away the cheapest option - especially if you already have the router.


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## mikej460 (13 Feb 2021)

I bought the Triton Pocket Hole Jig and it's been excellent so far. I built my router table with it, I'm building my Stanley organiser cabinet with it and plan to build my workshop drawer units with it. I used Trend pocket hole screws and bought a pocket hole clamp from Banggood which I'm pleased with. I practised using scrap wood first to make sure I'd got the right screws and jig settings, I then worked out the best clutch position for my drill to avoid over-driving.


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## Jacob (13 Feb 2021)

Right ho it looks like I've been talked out of pocket hole jigs being rubbish, but I'm still not going to buy one!


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## Terrytpot (13 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> Right ho it looks like I've been talked out of pocket hole jigs being rubbish, but I'm still not going to buy one!


..don't forget to add "So there! "


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## Rorschach (13 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> Right ho it looks like I've been talked out of pocket hole jigs being rubbish, but I'm still not going to buy one!



If you don't work with sheet goods regularly or do the kinds of repairs I do then you probably shouldn't buy one.


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## sometimewoodworker (14 Feb 2021)

jcassidy said:


> I applaud your excellent technique and trigger control.


While I thank you for the compliment (though it was probably intended to be a backhanded one  ) I can’t in all honesty claim anything special.

The geometry of a flat underside meeting a flat pocket which is pressing down onto a 15degree face means that the failure mode of pulling through the pocket is a very unusual occurrence, the thread stripping in the wood so not gripping is more usual, but still uncommon.

But change one of those (tapered underside of the screw, tapered hole or, deadly, both ) and pulling through becomes almost the default failure mode.

The 15 degree angle is not that special, there are jigs with less but then the entry pocket is bigger


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## sometimewoodworker (14 Feb 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If you don't work with sheet goods regularly or do the kinds of repairs I do then you probably shouldn't buy one.


Almost ½ the pocket hole joints I use are not in, or to, sheet goods, and none are repairs so I’m not sure that that’s the best advice.


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Almost ½ the pocket hole joints I use are not in, or to, sheet goods, and none are repairs so I’m not sure that that’s the best advice.



Well that's ruined it then! lol.


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## robgul (14 Feb 2021)

petermillard said:


> Just to clarify, it’s £170 (inc vat) for the mini jig & starter set (bit & connectors) and just to keep things on topic I have a pocket-hole jig that‘s priced around there, too. Back to the Peanut, it depends on wether you want a self-clamping invisible connector or not; if you don’t you don’t, but if you do then the peanut is far and away the cheapest option - especially if you already have the router.



Apologies on the lack of clarification re the complete kit . . . . like the Kreg jig purchaser up-thread I stumbled across my Trend jig with drill, driver bit (new in the box) and two bags of screws for £25!! 

Drifting away for a moment, recent tool bargains for me were a couple of traditional CK wooden/brass rivet squares that after a clean are as good as new and a Surform tool (remember them?) for £3 the lot - and a 2 year-old compound Evolution mitre saw for £20. "Keep 'em peeled" as Shaw Taylor used to say


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## Sandyn (14 Feb 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> A bit like duct tape, you’d not want to see it on a surgeons tray but for ducting, it really is just the ticket



Ha!!! From my 101 uses for duct tape list. Use case 23: Support for broken 5th metacarpal.


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## Setch (14 Feb 2021)

Sandyn said:


> Ha!!! From my 101 uses for duct tape list. Use case 23: Support for broken 5th metacarpal.
> 
> View attachment 103494



Also makes the best jobsite/workshop plasters when you stick a freshly sharpened chisel into a poorly positioned digit.


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## Rorschach (14 Feb 2021)

Setch said:


> Also makes the best jobsite/workshop plasters when you stick a freshly sharpened chisel into a poorly positioned digit.



Superglue and tissue paper is what I use, my cuts heal much faster using this method.


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## Ralfyfix (14 Feb 2021)

Ralfyfix said:


> I’ve used Kreg pocket hole screws to make a number of drawers for my work shed using ply, MDF, chipboard and wood and varying from 75mm to 250mm high and 600mm deep with roller ball hinges. Absolutely magic and no problems despite some being heavily loaded. On some I have glued some of the joins.


The


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## recipio (15 Feb 2021)

Anybody use the Kreg plug cutter ? The only advantage I can see over the pre- made plugs is the ability to cut them from a piece of matching scrap if using solid wood. Pricey of course.


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## novocaine (15 Feb 2021)

Nope,i make a length of 10mm dowel from whatever wood I'm using instead.


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## AES (15 Feb 2021)

recipio said:


> Anybody use the Kreg plug cutter ? The only advantage I can see over the pre- made plugs is the ability to cut them from a piece of matching scrap if using solid wood. Pricey of course.




No I don't use it - as you say, it's quite pricey.

I just use any old bit of dowel I can find, cut it off to (more or less) the right length with a cheapo very fine pull saw, then sand. But then I don't make fine furniture, the stuff I make only gets painted (IF it's lucky)! The one advantage I can see is that IF you need a matching wooden plug, then I guess that Kreg thingy does the job.


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## TheUnicorn (15 Feb 2021)

I've got to assume that a plug would be preferable to a dowel as a cover for a screw (assuming an exposed wood finish, not paint) as the grain could be, if not perfectly matched, at least aligned. However, I can't quite understand the value in the kreg plug cutter over a set for a tenner like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/WOWOSS-Ten...ywords=plug+cutter+kreg&qid=1613431118&sr=8-9


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## TheUnicorn (15 Feb 2021)

Realise now as I think about it that taking the angle of the pocket hole into account a dowel would give you a perfectly close grain match. I was stupidly thinking of a plug in a straight hole


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## sometimewoodworker (16 Feb 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> The geometry of a flat underside meeting a flat pocket which is pressing down onto a 15degree face means that the failure mode of pulling through the pocket is a very unusual occurrence, the thread stripping in the wood so not gripping is more usual, but still uncommon.
> 
> But change one of those (tapered underside of the screw, tapered hole or, deadly, both ) and pulling through becomes almost the default failure mode.


I have found 1 more failure mode.
last night I was making a test joint in a piece of rubberwood sheet material. So I decided on a little experiment, the panel pieces are 20mm and are cut from pieces that are going to be drawer sides, they are really a bit too thick in my opinion but SWMBO said that they are the size she wants so who am I to argue  .
to get back to the test, with 3 pockets in the end of a test piece (end grain) joining to the side of the other, drilled using a Kreg bit and a Kreg jig.

The first correct length 1 ¼ Kreg course thread screw was driven with a clutch drive drill/driver

The second correct length 1 ¼ Kreg course thread screw was driven with an impact driver set on gorilla strength and failed by stripping the thread it cut into the wood

The third incorrect length 1 ½ Kreg course thread screw was driven with an impact driver again set on gorilla strength and failed by the new mode of shearing off where the thread starts.

None of these had a pocket failure despite the excessive force used. This doesn’t rule out pocket failure if the pockets are in a more fragile material like a cheap plywood but a reasonable quality plywood will almost certainly not fail. that is using the correct drill bit jig and sensible driving force, leaving the gorilla in the zoo. 


Rubber wood is a softish hardwood but a bit harder than most pines. It is a reasonable material almost white and the 2440 x 1200 sheets are made from short finger jointed pieces, unfortunately like any wide flat wood it can cup or bow here it is in the unfinished state





then with a coloured shellac base


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## recipio (16 Feb 2021)

AES said:


> No I don't use it - as you say, it's quite pricey.
> 
> I just use any old bit of dowel I can find, cut it off to (more or less) the right length with a cheapo very fine pull saw, then sand. But then I don't make fine furniture, the stuff I make only gets painted (IF it's lucky)! The one advantage I can see is that IF you need a matching wooden plug, then I guess that Kreg thingy does the job.



The Kerg pocket hole is an imperial size - 3/8" from memory and you can buy a plug cutter that size. The only advantage of the Kreg plug cutter is that it produces a pre made flat on the dowel. Good if you are in a hurry.


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## Jar944 (17 Feb 2021)

Pocket holes work extremely well for assembling face frames for cabinetry. I'm not a fan of the kreg system, but they are relatively inexpensive.


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