# How Many Guns does one need to be safe?



## Grinding One (6 Mar 2009)

As many as you can carry with ammo


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## Steve Maskery (6 Mar 2009)

Zero.
We have a different culture!
S


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## Oryxdesign (6 Mar 2009)

Surely a gun is very dangerous, you can get killed with one of them, so why would you want one for safety?


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## andycktm (6 Mar 2009)

You on 360 COD 5 brother,bring it on :lol: :wink:


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## Grinding One (6 Mar 2009)

Guns do not kill people...people kill people.Ban guns and the crims just use other means...But with a good defence and training in the use of them...People show respect toward one another.Crime drops,because the criminals do not know who is protecting what....I have been trained extensively in the use and safety of guns...not one has killed me yet....I own quite a few.


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## Steve Maskery (6 Mar 2009)

Grinding One":1o87fipe said:


> I own quite a few.



Why, isn't one enough?
S


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## Grinding One (6 Mar 2009)

One is for Rabbits (A good meal)a twenty two rifle
One is for Pheasants (Another good eating meal) 410 shotgun
One is for protection of house -357 magnum 4 inch barrel
One is for missed target escaping with goods -44 magnum 7 inch barrel
One is for show -44 black powder ,antique gun
Wife is a crack shot with all of these,her dad used her to throw clay targets for him and if he missed she could shoot them with her 22 rim fired single shot rifle...she is a regular Annie Oakley with it.When I married her I took her out to the range to teach her to shoot...well shes better then me,I told her to quit wasteing ammo as she didn`t need pratice.


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## Steve Maskery (6 Mar 2009)

Steve Maskery":2q8d9zv4 said:


> Zero.



I can't help feeling like Alan Davies on QI...
Whaa, Whaa, Whaa, Whaa...

S


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Mar 2009)

I have an old .22 bolt action rifle from Montgomery Wards. The gun is in its case in a closet in the house and the bolt is hdden in the shop. There isn't a round for it on the property. As it sits right now, it could be used as a club and if I miss, I can always throw it.

I only have it because its was my grandfather's and the only thing of his I have. I've never shot it and don't intend to.


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## andycktm (6 Mar 2009)

Many years ago we used to have .22 bullet guns at blackpool pleasure beach bolt action and semi's ,cartridges all over the floor :lol: :lol:


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## Jake (6 Mar 2009)

Steve Maskery":132b3emg said:


> We have a different culture!



I think we just have one.


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## mailee (6 Mar 2009)

I used to have quite a large collection of guns many years ago. I did enjoy my shooting and along with many of the members of our club we had a healthy respect for them. Safety was paramount and we could see what damage one could do in the wrong hands. Then along came Hungerford and the regulations were tightened. I sold all of my guns after that knowing that if I didn't I would lose a lot of money on them. Years later another disaster at Dunblane put the final nail in the coffin for legal gun owners. Since then gun crime has not gone down it has escalated as the guns that were available were just driven underground and far more difficult to police. I do not condone the strict regulations on guns but it seems to me as has been mentioned it is not the gun that kills it is the man on the trigger. This could also be said about cars, they do not kill it is the silly person behind the wheel. Sorry rant over now. :roll:


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## Oryxdesign (6 Mar 2009)

I agree with all you say Mailee however, a car is designed for transport and gun is designed to shoot things.


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## Digit (6 Mar 2009)

Agreed Mailee! Quoting US figures is a favourite tactic by the anti gun lobby but over here guns are still more difficult to acquire and more expensive than knives. I feel that if knife crime and gun crime were added together the figures might not look so different to other countries.
A report published by the BBC suggests that knife crime is about 60000 offenses/annum plus gun crime on top.
I doubt that victims are much concerned with the niceties of gun versus knife statistics though.

Roy.


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## lemonjeff (6 Mar 2009)

Steve Maskery":81cutpmq said:


> Grinding One":81cutpmq said:
> 
> 
> > I own quite a few.
> ...


Guns are like planes or routers in Mailee's case, you can never have too many.
And of course there aren't any pistols in the UK anymore as they've all been banned.

Jeff.


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## Davon (6 Mar 2009)

Grinding One":2f6nm3sb said:


> One is for Rabbits (A good meal)a twenty two rifle
> One is for Pheasants (Another good eating meal) 410 shotgun
> One is for protection of house -357 magnum 4 inch barrel
> One is for missed target escaping with goods -44 magnum 7 inch barrel
> ...


 And where do you keep these guns ? could be a nasty accident if you get into a argument with someone  unless of course you have a lock-up armoury.
Davon


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## RogerS (6 Mar 2009)

Oryxdesign":37ycvzfz said:


> I agree with all you say Mailee however, a car is designed for transport and gun is designed to shoot things.



Ummm....like rabbits and pheasants. And gets rid of vermin like squirrels and pigeons (also quite tasty).


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## Oryxdesign (6 Mar 2009)

Me too Roger and I have no problem with guns being used to hunt them but, a gun is a dangerous tool and I can't see that having one under your pillow is going to keep you safe.


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## RogerS (6 Mar 2009)

Oryxdesign":2rpr132w said:


> Me too Roger and I have no problem with guns being used to hunt them but, a gun is a dangerous tool and I can't see that having one under your pillow is going to keep you safe.



Why not? As long as you wake up in time :wink:

It's a bit like that poor Greek driver who's been arrested for protecting his livelihood and property. Our law is rubbish. You're woken up in the early hours of the morning by three guys with baseball bats and so you defend yourself. Tough that two of them died. Shouldn't have been trying to rob the Greek in the first place.


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## Oryxdesign (6 Mar 2009)

I think you'd be more likely to shoot the wife or kids than an intruder, mind you, my experience is limited as I haven't had any intruders!


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## Digit (6 Mar 2009)

Yep! Agreed Rog.

Roy.


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## pren (6 Mar 2009)

Have all the guns you want. 

Ban ammunition! Have gangsters driving by shouting 'BANG' at their enemies. 

Much safer. =D>


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## woodbloke (6 Mar 2009)

The American constitution as drafted in the 18th cent was appropriate for it's times...it clearly isn't for the 21st cent which is what many 'murricans don't fully appreciate. Lethal firearms have no place in todays society but unfortunately the gun lobby in the good ol' gun totin' US of A don't see it like that - Rob


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## Digit (6 Mar 2009)

In a perfect world Rob I would have to agree, but it's not a perfect world.
According to the BBC, using Home Office figures, some 60000 people in England and Wales were exposed to knife and gun crime in 2008, that's better than one in 1000!
Woken at night to hear burglars downstairs invokes the advice from our guardians to lock the bed room door and let them get on with it!
Like Hell! What sort of philosophy is that?

Roy.


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## mailee (6 Mar 2009)

A gun is a tool just like the ones we work with every day, and lets face it if anyone was so inclined they could use a drill, saw, chisel as an offensive weapon! Only the difference is that the gun was and still is in some cases used to catch food. I have to admit I never used any of my guns to catch food as I couldn't kill anything myself, but I used to enjoy target shooting as well as combat pistol shooting. For me it was the challenge of lying very still and controlling my breathing and trying to better my last attempt at getting the round in the 10 ring. there was no more thrill for me than to pull a gun on a target that had popped up from out of nowhere testing my reflexes and attention. This is what shooting is all about and the tools used. It is a sad fact that there is a minority who will always use this tool for other means and turn them on their fellow men, women or children. In my opinion they should not have banned the guns but vetted the users much more thoroughly. :wink:


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## Digit (6 Mar 2009)

Agreed again! Dunblane was the result of a madman being given the right to a weapon by a senior police officer who ignored the Scouts, the local gun club and his own force, he was then allowed to retire, on a full pension, due to ill health!

Roy.


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## Grinding One (6 Mar 2009)

The people who cry the loudest about gun crimes are the ones who cry the loudest about police protection....Please take care of me and my goods!!!!
Well the time it take for a responce...they will gladly write the report.They do not want to get shot either...I called for the police as a renter was basting away every night at 11:00P.M. They came by a half hour later and knocked on my door and asked me who was shooting?? I told them he went to bed...no report was made as I could not prove he was shooting,next night he was at it again.I called,they said prove it,I hung the phone out of the window..blam blam blam ...they said they would send a car,yep 1/2 hr later up comes a car.He went to bed again...I told him I didn`t mind him shooting but hes hitting my house now and if it didn`t stop I was going to stop him....the police went to his house and said a complaint was on file..he said he didn`t have a gun.He didn`t shoot for a week because of patrols....then he started back up,I open my window and yell for him to stop,he laughed and I let loose with my 44 a couple of times into the air....that was the end of that.
Don`t tell me it was not a needful thing to do as at the time I had 3 little kids in the house,my neighbors were all huddled in there houses shaking,later they thanked me.
That guy moved as he was told if it didn`t stop there was going to be a hanging the next time....we had the quitest block of the city after that.


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## Grinding One (7 Mar 2009)

My guns are not loaded and we have a gun safe....but I can load them quicker then it takes the law to arrive....


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## Jake (7 Mar 2009)

mailee":23yt2krr said:


> A gun is a tool just like the ones we work with every day, and lets face it if anyone was so inclined they could use a drill, saw, chisel as an offensive weapon! Only the difference is that the gun was and still is in some cases used to catch food. I have to admit I never used any of my guns to catch food as I couldn't kill anything myself, but I used to enjoy target shooting as well as combat pistol shooting. For me it was the challenge of lying very still and controlling my breathing and trying to better my last attempt at getting the round in the 10 ring. there was no more thrill for me than to pull a gun on a target that had popped up from out of nowhere testing my reflexes and attention. This is what shooting is all about and the tools used. It is a sad fact that there is a minority who will always use this tool for other means and turn them on their fellow men, women or children. In my opinion they should not have banned the guns but vetted the users much more thoroughly. :wink:



The same argument could be made for nuclear weapons. Perfectly harmless if you don'tpress the button, after all. It's the man, not the weapon.

Or nerve gas maybe, given that someone was moaning about not being able to use Mace.


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## Jake (7 Mar 2009)

Digit":2ls5gg1e said:


> Agreed Mailee! Quoting US figures is a favourite tactic by the anti gun lobby but over here guns are still more difficult to acquire and more expensive than knives. I feel that if knife crime and gun crime were added together the figures might not look so different to other countries.



Here's the US stats for both. Knife homicides seem to be around the 2.5k/annum mark,which with a population of c300,000,000 would be the equivalent of c500pa here. 

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

Even with the recent spike, knife homicide rates here are around the 280pa mark, and typical long term average nearer to 220pa.

So we have less homicide by both those weapons, by a massive factor in the case of (tightly controlled) guns and by a mere 100% or so in the case of (less tightly controlled) knives. Can you spot a trend there?

So I suggest that your feelings are more of an indication of how you want things to be - and maybe a mirror on the distorted picture of our (actually quite civilised) society which is painted by a (largely foreign-owned) fear-spreading right-wing press rather than anything to do with reality.


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## RogerS (7 Mar 2009)

Grinding One":tt107t9b said:


> ..........
> Don`t tell me it was not a needful thing to do as at the time I had 3 little kids in the house,my neighbors were all huddled in there houses shaking,later they thanked me.
> That guy moved as he was told if it didn`t stop there was going to be a hanging the next time....we had the quitest block of the city after that.



I like your approach, G1.  We usually 'pussyfoot' around in our 'more civilised....as Jake would have it' society.


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## devonwoody (7 Mar 2009)

Personally I think its really should be my human right to own a gun to protect myself if attacked by a superior force such as a gang or knife using thugs.

Fortunately I have never been in the situation to need such, but there are plenty of people in this country that do get that protection, even the police get gun allocations, but they can take a long time to turn up, after all 3 minute attendance schedule can be too late.


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## Grinding One (7 Mar 2009)

Jake":3ad5ayj4 said:


> Digit":3ad5ayj4 said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed Mailee! Quoting US figures is a favourite tactic by the anti gun lobby but over here guns are still more difficult to acquire and more expensive than knives. I feel that if knife crime and gun crime were added together the figures might not look so different to other countries.
> ...



You guys just do not get it,when the people who want power tell everyone to give them your guns....you are helpless to stop the next thing thats going to happen.It happens over and over in history...The People are turned into sheep,but there always has been a sheapard somewhere in the world to get them out of trouble.What happens if the Sheapard says "ok you can have mine too I am just to tired to help anymore I just want piece."....Whats going to happen then??Shades of Hitler....


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## MikeG. (7 Mar 2009)

So Grinding One.......those parts of, say, Africa which are awash with guns are the ones with the right idea, and will be safe from malicious shepherds, whereas those parts without guns are the ones in danger?

Mike


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## Maverick.uk (7 Mar 2009)

Digit":1ik9239d said:


> Agreed again! Dunblane was the result of a madman being given the right to a weapon by a senior police officer who ignored the Scouts, the local gun club and his own force, he was then allowed to retire, on a full pension, due to ill health!
> 
> Roy.



And then cover it all up with "official secrets act" for 100 years, stinks if you ask me!

Cheers

Mav


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## Grinding One (7 Mar 2009)

Mike Garnham":28lcywin said:


> So Grinding One.......those parts of, say, Africa which are awash with guns are the ones with the right idea, and will be safe from malicious shepherds, whereas those parts without guns are the ones in danger?
> 
> Mike



I think you`ll fine that the guy with all of those guns was funded by outside interest....Those people have been fighting for years with spears....the fight is now over who owns the land not caring about peoples lifes...and yes we have been asked to once again bring our guns and stabalize another country.There will always be someone who wants the others wealth....But we have never takin tribute for our spilled blood...
Case in Point,you guys brought your guns to the new world,killed a bunch of Indians for there Gold,gave them all kinds of dieseases,For King and Queen.The French thought this is a good Idea sent some of there ships too.You guys went to fighting over it,for what?? To hand it over to your country`s leaders..
Now they on the other hand were killing each other to please their gods???
World has always been upside down,but the guy in charge has always had an adjenda.I want the other guy`s goods.


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## devonwoody (7 Mar 2009)

How about me as an innocent bystander killed by a gangland mob, I die they live. (we dont hang them any more) If I had had a gun I would not be the one dead.


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## Grinding One (7 Mar 2009)

You have hit the nail on the head with that one...
We have to start to use the death penalty again....


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## Jake (7 Mar 2009)

OK. I told my partner about this thread (well, she spotted me looking at violent crime statistics,and I had to explain). She said it's simple. If they legalised guns over here like GI seems to want, she'd be right around to shoot him first.

I'm glad we don't have guns (in wide circulation).


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## Grinding One (7 Mar 2009)

Ok, I am crossing England off of my list  
Oh an I never said or suggested you get your guns back....
I`m just not giving mine up.I know what kind of sick persons are out there,I used to drive a cab at night in those bad peoples areas.
Just did it to feed my family,they are up and away now so no need to do it again.


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## Jake (7 Mar 2009)

Grinding One":3fvo4gnz said:


> Ok, I am crossing England off of my list



It's OK, you'll be perfectly safe- she can't get hold of one.


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## Digit (7 Mar 2009)

Strange about the fear some here are showing about 'guns' being made legal and the 'country being awash with them'. Till 1996 hand guns were legal here.
Strangely, I haven't seen the deaths from shooting fall since then.
Legal fire arms have never been a major problem over here, it's the illegal ones that are being used in crimes.

Roy.


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## Maverick.uk (7 Mar 2009)

Digit":3cfwt1j0 said:


> it's the illegal ones that are being used in crimes.
> 
> Roy.



And the change in the law has not removed one of them!

Cheers

Mav


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## Digit (7 Mar 2009)

And the judges have managed to redefine the word 'Mandatory' in relation to parliament's 'mandatory' five year prison term for their illegal possession.

Roy.


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## Tom K (7 Mar 2009)

1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe-QP8s1ZJc


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## snapper (7 Mar 2009)

Some facts that I think are interesting

The murder rate in 1986 in England and Wales was 1.12 per 100,000 people
Between then and '97 we banned and confiscated all semi auto rifles, lever action rifles and handguns, taking hundreds of thousands of lethal weapons out of the hands of the population.
The murder rate in 1998 in England and Wales was 1.43 per 100,000, or to put it another way we were 28% *more* likely to be murdered than before.

The murder rate in 1986 in the USA was 8.6 per 100,000 and 
Between then and '97 tens of millions of weapons, including many millions of semi auto rifles and hanguns were sold to the public and may states gave permits out that allowed people to carry handguns.
The murder rate in 1998 in the USA was 6.3 per 100,000, ie Grinding One and his fellow citizens were 28% *less* likely to be murdered than before.

I must admit I have a great deal of difficulty in believing that the 'common sense gun laws' have made me any safer, or that bans on 'combat knives' and new 'tough knife laws' will do anything other than provide a smokescreen to allow politicians to do nothing that will actually reduce violent crime whilst wasting large amount of taxpayers money and police manpower harassing the 99% who commit very little crime instead of the 1% who commit almost all of it.

As Jake pointed out the USA has more murders of all categories, and has had for at least a century - even when UK and USA gun laws were the same (ie no restrictions on ownership) prior to '30s the USA rate was a multiple of the UK, although I don't think that the UK has become more civilised as our gun laws tightened and our murder rate rose.

Mike


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## zeb (8 Mar 2009)

well i go shooting with my mate and his air rifle had a good few pidgin and a few rabbits for my tea (i get the food :lol: )the thing is his air rifle would kill a person at close range but when i stayed at his and the local travellers decide to try and still our bike we both went out with criket bats and snoker ques  seems dumb when we did considering they had shot guns (we didnt now till we had hit one of em) :roll: any how they ran off :shock: i personlly think guns are bludy dangerous but in the right hand safe, mush like a T/S


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## Rich (8 Mar 2009)

So, what should we make of all the comments and statistics? well, for my money, it is irrelevant, if the perpetrator of a crime is weilding a knitting needle or a bazooka because:
A... the risk of being caught and charged is 50/50 and worth chancing.

B... If the perpetrator IS caught and charged, he/she has the luxury of 3 square meals a day, pool, television, table tennis, a warm room, (low earnings) free education, benefits paid whilst still inside, blind eyes turned to drug smuggling, etc etc, the time has surely come to make doing time SO uncomfortable that once experienced, one would not wish to go through it again, if not, then why, should I as a taxpayer make sure that me and my family stick to the straight and narrow.
It's not the act of toting a weapon that is wrong but the thought that if one were to use it to kill someone, then, so what?

Rich.


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## eggflan (8 Mar 2009)

Guns , 8) 

I use 2 and shoot them every day , the smaller clarke one is used more than my dewalt one (because they both work aswell) they are both 18 gauge 8) 8) 8) 

So do i need a framing nailer/gun also :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Grinding One (8 Mar 2009)

As said before,people who use guns,get locked up for a time get out and do it again,and again....so most of the killing is being done by repeat offenders.If we hang them crime will go down.


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## Grinding One (8 Mar 2009)

Another thing bullets used to contain lead,now all steel to save the poor animals that did not die due to being shot but dieing due to lead poisoning.


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## devonwoody (8 Mar 2009)

Perhaps in these economic climes the cruise ships business will shrink, our government could then accommodate more prisoners on these ships and anchor them up near the Caribbean. We would definitely needs guns to protect ourselves then. :x


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## BradNaylor (8 Mar 2009)

I hate the whole idea of guns.

Fine, if you are in the Scottish Highlands and fancy a spot of deer stalking, you might want a hunting rifle.

Or if you are a farmer and need to keep rabbits and pigeons under control, having a shotgun is reasonable.

But for the other 99.9% of us, gun ownership is completely indefensible IMO. If general ownership was allowed the it would simply mean that _all_ criminals would carry guns, instead of a tiny minority, thus increasing the danger to us all.

The fact is that the vast majority of gun crime is amongst criminal gangs in inner city areas, and killings are generally gang on gang ones, with innocent members of the public very rarely victims.

Those suggesting that the general public in this country should be able to keep guns to protect themselves are displaying paranoid tendancies of a rather worrying nature. Not to mention irrefutable evidence of extremely small penises.

If in America ownership of a gun is neccesary in order to protect ones family, then surely this is _because_ gun ownership is so universal!

My trips to the USA rather confirm my suspicions. The guys who really _love_ their guns rather than see them merely as hunting or pest control tools are the paranoid redneck cretins with the tiny dicks.

Cheers
Dan


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## RogerS (8 Mar 2009)

Digit":1sw8ofp3 said:


> And the judges have managed to redefine the word 'Mandatory' in relation to parliament's 'mandatory' five year prison term for their illegal possession.
> 
> Roy.



That will be the Sentencing Guidelines Council then. And not influenced by Labour Govt policy at all. 

Ooh...is that a pig I see flying?


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## devonwoody (8 Mar 2009)

Dan 
My lady friend in the USA keeps a rather nasty looking modified gun under her bed. (perhaps for men with big ones.) :wink:


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## RogerS (8 Mar 2009)

snapper":2x13neuu said:


> ......
> Between then and '97 we banned and confiscated all semi auto rifles, lever action rifles and handguns, taking hundreds of thousands of lethal weapons out of the hands of the population.
> .........



Small point but certainly semi-automatic rifles can be purchase legally with a valid firearms certificate.


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## RogerS (8 Mar 2009)

Grinding One":2gvdp75t said:


> As said before,people who use guns,get locked up for a time get out and do it again,and again....so most of the killing is being done by repeat offenders.If we hang them crime will go down.



You are right again. I'd not apply it to crimes of passion. For example, the wife who suffered beating at the hands of her husband until she finally snapped and killed him. She's likely not to do it again.

But there are those whose brains are simply wired differently. Killing is akin to a junkies 'fix' for them. So they should either be hung/whatever or never ever let out. Explains why Fred West and others commit suicide in prison. The realisation that they'll never get their 'fix' for a long long time.


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## Digit (8 Mar 2009)

OK Dan, you're entitled to you view but as I asked earlier, what about my very basic right to defend my self. What justification is there for classifying blow pipes, pepper sprays and stun guns as 'firearms' and banning them.
Carrying any item specifically for self defence was made a criminal offense in 1946, I doubt you will find many other countries that define self defence as a criminal act under any circumstance.

Roy.


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## Doctor (8 Mar 2009)

one of the highest guns per person countries is Canada (way higher than USA), yet it is one of the safest.
Media hysteria fuels fear levels in America increasing gun crime.

I had a gun but gave it away as I didn't want my son doing what I did with my Dad's guns when I was a lad. Growing up involves a lot of luck, I had my fair share.


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## Digit (8 Mar 2009)

Same applies to Scandinavia and Switzerland Doc, but that doesn't fit in with the anti's view point so doesn't get a mention.

Roy.


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## devonwoody (8 Mar 2009)

And who amongst you says a lady should not be allowed to have a gun under her pillow to stop any intruder raping her?
(the intruder might be HIV positive)


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## Doctor (8 Mar 2009)

Don't get me wrong the last thing I want is for ladys to have guns under their pillows, my point was gun crime is not related to the number of guns.


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## Digit (8 Mar 2009)

A point frequently ignored Doc.

Roy.


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## snapper (8 Mar 2009)

Dan Tovey":3i5d7gbq said:


> I hate the whole idea of guns.
> 
> But for the other 99.9% of us, gun ownership is completely indefensible IMO. If general ownership was allowed the it would simply mean that _all_ criminals would carry guns, instead of a tiny minority, thus increasing the danger to us all.



In that case would you mind explaining why the murder rate in England and Wales was about a third less in the 1930s and before, when there were no limits (even on full auto) on what people could own and it was quite legal to carry guns for self defence?



> Those suggesting that the general public in this country should be able to keep guns to protect themselves are displaying paranoid tendancies of a rather worrying nature. Not to mention irrefutable evidence of extremely small penises.


So not really caring what my neighbours legally own = paranoid.
Believing that were all safer now than ever before thanks to lower levels of gun ownership, despite significantly higher murder and violent crime rates = sensible.



> The guys who really _love_ their guns rather than see them merely as hunting or pest control tools are the paranoid redneck cretins with the tiny dicks.


I'm afraid I don't have any personal experience or hard data to refute this and don't want to search about varying lengths of the male member on google for obvious reasons, so i'll have to defer to your knowledge on the relationship between ones size and ones guns. Do you have any reputable sources to quote or are you just relying on, erm, 'surveys' you undertook personally?


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## devonwoody (8 Mar 2009)

In the meantime is there a battery nail gun? :wink:


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## woodbloke (8 Mar 2009)

Where I work the guards (MPGS) on the main gate used to have pistols (Brownings I'm led to believe) but when I went home each night a quick look at the hand grip showed a big black hole...no clip! Nowadays though they sport SA80's which is a slightly different kettle of worms. 
In my previous branch, the wife of one of my mate's who works on the gate and who's about 5' tall (she's also in charge of some very nasty doggies) came in and asked for a slack handful of T bags. "No problemo" says I "you can have as many as you want, 'specially as you're cradling an SA80" - Rob


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## Doctor (8 Mar 2009)

snapper":dg5d7qzv said:


> I'm afraid I don't have any personal experience or hard data to refute this and don't want to search about varying lengths of the male member on google for obvious reasons, so i'll have to defer to your knowledge on the relationship between ones size and ones guns. Do you have any reputable sources to quote or are you just relying on, erm, 'surveys' you undertook personally?



:lol: :lol: :lol: I think someones been having a little rumage around in the old underpants dep't whilst in the USA, may even know George Michael. :lol: :lol:


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## MikeG. (8 Mar 2009)

snapper":3fmodn6o said:


> In that case would you mind explaining why the murder rate in England and Wales was about a third less in the 1930s and before, when there were no limits (even on full auto) on what people could own and it was quite legal to carry guns for self defence?



Could this have something to do with most people living in communities where everyone knew eveyone else, in large extended families, and a culture of deference? Maybe the absence of large scale drug abuse might be in the mix too......

There really is too much simplistic argument going on in this thread......too much black & white and not enough grey. Too much rehearsal of entrenched views and cultural norms. Personally, I hope it gets shut down shortly before people start getting too hot under the collar.

Mike


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## beech1948 (8 Mar 2009)

Well said Mike. The level of generalisations is huge and mostly opinion only with few facts. Probably shows we all have a tendency to imagine the worst and consider it real.

I am already pretty hot under my collar about this thread.

Best to shut it down I think.

reegards
Alan


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