# BBC iPlayer



## Scrums (4 Feb 2008)

Making the unmissable unwatchable ?

Anybody using this?......does it work for you?

My first d/l today - terrific quality video, but so jerky and unsync'd to soundtrack it's useless. Where am I going wrong, or have others found this too.

Chris.


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## superunknown (4 Feb 2008)

Not tried it yet, sometimes I have a similar problem with streaming video. Try and let the whole thing download before you watch.


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## Slim (4 Feb 2008)

Yes I have used it, but did not get any of the problems you mentioned. It was perfect.


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## superunknown (4 Feb 2008)

I have tried it now, no problems.


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## YorkieT (4 Feb 2008)

We have used it several times over the last few days and it has worked perfectly, very impressed  

YorkieT


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## Scrums (4 Feb 2008)

Maybe I just got a bad download then, I'll try again. Thanks for your replies.


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## Smudger (4 Feb 2008)

Is there a Mac version yet, or is the Beeb still ignoring the terms of its charter?


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## WellsWood (4 Feb 2008)

I tried it. It worked OK but I wasn't impressed by the quality - a bit too youtube-ish for me. I'll get my fix with Virgin catchupTV (when it works :roll: ) or more probably just go without if I don't get it when it first airs - it's only TV after all.


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## MrJay (5 Feb 2008)

Last time I checked (or the channel 4 thingy) it didn't even work with the latest version of Windows Media Player, let alone Mac or Linux or a non-proprietary media player (VLC etc) on windows. The internet hasn't been this wilfully broken since the 1990s - Bring back the browser wars and 'best viewed in Internet Explorer 3.0 at 800 x 600 and 256 colors' messages that used to warn you off visiting endless web pages that couldn't be viewed in your browser.

Me thinks DRM has gone too far down the stupid road.


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## RogerS (5 Feb 2008)

Smudger":3kbsabxu said:


> Is there a Mac version yet, or is the Beeb still ignoring the terms of its charter?



Still ignoring the terms of its' charter. The BBC Trust is supposed to be monitoring developments. Pause for hollow laughter. Since they don't have anyone on the Trust who has any experience of developing complex s/w systems they are hardly in a position to either be objective or ask the right questions of the developers/project team.

Now factor in the fact that the Head of Interactive/Internet/whatever development at the BBC and who sits on the management board used to hold a very senior position within Microsoft - a little detail that is missing from his BBC biography.

Then mix in the fact that one of the project team managers is also ex-Microsoft and also held a senior position then you can see the writing on the wall.

Can't remember either of their names but it's all there on the various forums. The whole thing just stinks.

EDIT: Ashley Highfield is the chief honcho mentioned above.


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## RogerS (5 Feb 2008)

MrJay":31p49h9v said:


> Me thinks DRM has gone too far down the stupid road.



I couldn't agree more. It's the DRM issue that is behind the lack of Mac/Linux capability for the BBC (and other broadcasters) TV download service.

The one question that no-one can explain to me is what exactly IS the point of time expired DRM when anyone can just as easily record digitally the TV programme in realtime using their PVR...where it will stay viewable and burnable to DVD forever.

They (the broadcasters) all claim that it is their content providers who dictate the use of Timed DRM. Two things show just how much b******s this actually is. Firstly - they won't say who their alleged content providers are and so no-one can make an independent check as to the veracity of their statement. Second, the TV broadcasters ARE the content provider in many cases.

Lots of stuff on the web about this - for example http://www.currybet.net/cbet_blog/2007/11/busting_the_bbcs_600_linux_users_myth.php


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## devonwoody (5 Feb 2008)

My experience the past couple of weeks with iplayer and firstly my new digital tv/dvd recorder is that things are not all honey with this digital set up.

My opinion is that digital reception is going to be a mess and not only will you need freeview etc. but in the end you will most probably need new aerials and recording equipment.

as for Iplayer, anything I wanted to view wasn't available so its very selective on what it offers a bit like Virgin Cable that does the same.


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## mr (5 Feb 2008)

Smudger":3fykitob said:


> Is there a Mac version yet, or is the Beeb still ignoring the terms of its charter?



if you mean the requirement for "platform neutrality for seven-day catch-up television over the internet within a reasonable timeframe" then they are not ignoring the charter (though I don't believe this requirement has anything to do with their charter which probably makes no reference to the iPlayer / downwladed content concept). They have made catch up tv available for streaming on the iPlayer site. It works for Windows, Mac and Linux and while far from perfect in as much as it isn't a download which is what the users want they have fulfilled the trust's requirements, at least in the short term. One day people will realize that DRM s a pointless waste of time, although there is intrinsically nothing wrong with the idea of protecting the rights of the owner, but the whole current DRM implementation seems deeply flawed. 

Cheers Mike


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## andrewm (5 Feb 2008)

Wasn't it Bill Bailey the comedian on Never Mind the Buzzcocks etc. who said of the iPlayer "What progress? It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days."?

Edit: Apparently on 'Have I Got News for You' on 4tthe May last year. I'm sure you can watch again on iPlayer if you wanted. oops. No, too late.


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## White House Workshop (5 Feb 2008)

devonwoody":1tc30d01 said:


> My opinion is that digital reception is going to be a mess and not only will you need freeview etc. but in the end you will most probably need new aerials and recording equipment.


Totally.

My son works for Sky and they are ecstatic that analogue TV is being switched off as there will be so many problems with Freeview reception that more customers will turn to Sky.

We have Freeview and 80% of the time it's OK. It's when we're 90 minutes into a 100 minute film and the picture freezes and the sound stops that we really enjoy it. Often the only solution is to switch everything off and reboot, which takes - you guessed it - at least 10 minutes! And if the weather conditions aren't right you get no reception at all - not even a snowy picture and crackly sound. AND we're paying for this! AND all the new equipment consumes more and more electricity. SO much for the government's green policies. {rant off}


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## RogerS (5 Feb 2008)

White House Workshop":22cwm993 said:


> .....
> We have Freeview and 80% of the time it's OK. It's when we're 90 minutes into a 100 minute film and the picture freezes and the sound stops that we really enjoy it. Often the only solution is to switch everything off and reboot, which takes - you guessed it - at least 10 minutes! And if the weather conditions aren't right you get no reception at all - not even a snowy picture and crackly sound. AND we're paying for this! AND all the new equipment consumes more and more electricity. SO much for the government's green policies. {rant off}



All my problems went away after I installed a new aerial and downlead cable.


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## YorkieT (5 Feb 2008)

White House Workshop":2ad76udu said:


> My son works for Sky and they are ecstatic that analogue TV is being switched off as there will be so many problems with Freeview reception that more customers will turn to Sky.
> 
> {rant off}



We tried freeview and experienced similar problems for almost 18 months before giving up and switching to sky and we are in a excellent area re reception! 

My mother in law has major problems with freeview, picture freezing, sound out of sync, blocky pictures, even channels being mixed up with sound from one and a picture from another  etc etc and this has been the same despite trying 2 different makes of box!

As for digital radio :roll: the unit we have in the house works fine but I have a VERY expensive portable DAB radio which is great if all you want to do is listen to squelching noises  

YorkieT


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## Slim (5 Feb 2008)

White House Workshop":2v97l5h5 said:


> My son works for Sky and they are ecstatic that analogue TV is being switched off as there will be so many problems with Freeview reception that more customers will turn to Sky.
> 
> We have Freeview and 80% of the time it's OK. It's when we're 90 minutes into a 100 minute film and the picture freezes and the sound stops that we really enjoy it. Often the only solution is to switch everything off and reboot, which takes - you guessed it - at least 10 minutes! And if the weather conditions aren't right you get no reception at all - not even a snowy picture and crackly sound. AND we're paying for this! AND all the new equipment consumes more and more electricity. SO much for the government's green policies. {rant off}



When analogue is switched off, the freeview signal will increase in power. For example, when the switchover happens at the Emley Moor mast, the freeview signal will increase from 8166W to 174000W. This will eradicate most of the reception problems people are suffering at the moment. (Unless it is an aeriel/wiring problem)


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## woodshavings (5 Feb 2008)

I have the BBC iPlayer on my PC, it works fine for both downloading and streaming.
My SWMBO has the iplayer on her MAC, but you can only stream, not download. Works fine though.
John


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## BradNaylor (6 Feb 2008)

Roger Sinden":2jzxznxh said:


> The one question that no-one can explain to me is what exactly IS the point of time expired DRM when anyone can just as easily record digitally the TV programme in realtime using their PVR...where it will stay viewable and burnable to DVD



Recording a programme yourself for future viewing is fine - if you know it is on!

For instance, I didn't see Panorama on Monday night but later learned that it had been about a subject that interests me - collapsing house prices.

So I watched it on Tuesday on my PC. The quality is so-so but that has probably as much to do with my antiquated computer as anything.

I see this as the future in TV watching. In a few years I'm sure that the library of available programmes will have expanded exponentially and that I will be watching on my big telly in the living room, not a monitor in my study. Missed that one episode of New Yankee Workshop from the third series? No problem - a few clicks and there it is!

I'm also sure they'll be charging us for it!


As far as freeview is concerned, I've always found the reception rubbish. It has always been sold on the basis that your existing ariel would suffice. I was chatting with an ariel installer recently however, and he told me that *ALL* ariels are going to have to be replaced with digital ones.

Needless to say he was rubbing his hands in anticipation!


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## RogerS (6 Feb 2008)

Dan Tovey":1bgh943q said:


> Roger Sinden":1bgh943q said:
> 
> 
> > .......For instance, I didn't see Panorama on Monday night but later learned that it had been about a subject that interests me - collapsing house prices.......



Don't you just love it when the media talks us into a housing price crash and a recession...talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Headlines such as 'HOUSE PRICES FALL' are guaranteed to start a crash...then when you look at the text it actually says that the rate of house price inflation has fallen ....BUT it's still going up...albeit slowly....at least it was until those flea-infested tabloid editors got their grubby little noses stuck in.


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## devonwoody (6 Feb 2008)

I got a good deal out of virgin yesterday, or did I?
TV 30 plus channels including HD.
V box records 2 programs and you can watch a third.(£75 one off payment)
Telephone, 200 minutes per month any time any where except 0900.
Broadband 2mb no limit.

£28 per month. 
(No bt line rental needed)


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## llangatwgnedd (6 Feb 2008)

> I got a good deal out of virgin yesterday, or did I?
> TV 30 plus channels including HD.
> V box records 2 programs and you can watch a third.(£75 one off payment)
> Telephone, 200 minutes per month any time any where except 0900.
> ...



Also as a Virgin cable customer, for £10 a month you can have Virgin sim card with 300 texts and 300min mins all unused roll over.

The broad band speeds will start at the end of Feb to be increased for the same price to what your paying now


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## llangatwgnedd (6 Feb 2008)

I've been told that you will not get HD programmes on Freeview, only on Cable and satellite.

Is that true?


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## RogerS (6 Feb 2008)

mr":2lurmnm8 said:


> if you mean the requirement for "platform neutrality for seven-day catch-up television over the internet within a reasonable timeframe" then they are not ignoring the charter



How so? Supposing they launched , say, a new digital TV sports channel that was not available to 25% of their viewers.....do you think that they are ignoring their charter then?

Curious to know more why you think the DRM implemantation is 'deeply flawed'.


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## mr (6 Feb 2008)

Roger Sinden":3kawushv said:


> How so? Supposing they launched , say, a new digital TV sports channel that was not available to 25% of their viewers.....do you think that they are ignoring their charter then?
> 
> Curious to know more why you think the DRM implemantation is 'deeply flawed'.



In that case they might be said to be ignoring their charter, Im not up on the demands of he charter so I couldn't say for sure. However the requirement to make a catch up tv facility which is platform independent is not part of the charter. It is a requirement laid down by the BBC Trust. In as much as they facilitate a streamed service of content then they are fulfilling the requirement. As I say the user wants a download that he or she can keep which is a different issue but in downloading and keeping content the user denies the content owner the the royalty rights. The BBC doesn't own rights in entirety to everything it produces let alone shows and therein lies the problem and the reason for DRM. Personally speaking I want to download the program to watch because my connection is poor and the streaming option isnt really usable. I would also like to use something other than media player 10 to view the content because I dont have it even on my windows machine. However these choices are mine to make, the facility has been put in place by the BBC. 
My view of DRM is that it is flawed for several reasons. Firstly whatever mechanism is found to facilitate rights management it will be broken and bypassed. It's an arms race, as new methods come into play they are broken etc. An encryption standard comprises three things, the encryption algorithm, the content and the key. When you buy it in the first place you are given all three - it stands to reason that it can always be circumvented somehow particularly when all three pieces are in the hands of millions of users.
Additionally Time restricted DRM makes no allowance for the manner in which the the end user wants to use the content. It dictates to the user that they can have this piece of content for 7 days, or they can make 2 copies of it and in this way it restricts the usage and so hopes to mitigate the financial loss to the copyright holders should the user abuse the content. The problem now is that if you circumvent the DRM mechanism to make use of the content under a fair usage banner which is your right, you are now in breach of the law. So DRM could be said to criminalize those who are simply exercising their right to use the content they have bought as they should be, and were previously, able to prior to the introduction of DRM. 
DRM implementations as we see them at the moment are not about enhancing user experience but more about restricting usage. My argument is not about copyright protection, copyright is a good thing it protects my living and probably that of many other people on this forum, but current DRM implementations restrict usage beyond the legal requirement which is a bad thing and one which invites users to steal the content and risk prosecution. 

Phew - that was a mouthful  

Cheers Mike


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## andrewm (6 Feb 2008)

Dan Tovey":1bdztr25 said:


> As far as freeview is concerned, I've always found the reception rubbish.



That was my view before I got it. Demo sets in stores always seemed to be pretty poor - especially sport with lots of movement. But with a wideband aerial and a loft-mounted head-amp so that I can feed multiple sockets I must say that I have been really surprised. The quality [1] is excellent - far better than analogue.

Have yet to be convinced that the same is true of DAB though.

Andrew

[1] I mean the quality of the picture - not the quality of the programmes


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## BradNaylor (6 Feb 2008)

RogerS":39da5uq4 said:


> Don't you just love it when the media talks us into a housing price crash and a recession...talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> Headlines such as 'HOUSE PRICES FALL' are guaranteed to start a crash...then when you look at the text it actually says that the rate of house price inflation has fallen ....BUT it's still going up...albeit slowly....at least it was until those flea-infested tabloid editors got their grubby little noses stuck in.



Hey, don't get me started on the house price crash, Roger!

Suffice to say, anyone entering the property market this year wants their bumps felt!

For full analysis try http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum


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## andrewm (6 Feb 2008)

Dan Tovey":1qj8pwb4 said:


> For full analysis try http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum



I think the jury's still out on the future of the housing market - too dependent on the economy and how the American's react. However housepricecrash.co.uk have been predicting it for at least five years so are hardly impartial in that respect.

Andrew


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## RogerS (6 Feb 2008)

Sawdust Producer":8xuvexeh said:


> I've been told that you will not get HD programmes on Freeview, only on Cable and satellite.
> 
> Is that true?



Not true...the BBC is working on being able to do this.


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## mr (7 Feb 2008)

According to the DG Mark Thompson as reported by this evenings news 
The BBC will launch a download version of its iPlayer online video service for Apple Mac users by the end of 2008.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7233252.stm 

Cheers Mike


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## RogerS (14 Feb 2008)

Mike

That's good news. Let's hope they don't slip the date.

But just to show just how far up Microsoft's backside the BBC is, I set my PC laptop up for downloading using iPlayer. There happened to be a link highlighted 'peer to peer' (which I know all about but wanted to check to see if they were trying to use my laptop as a peer ...which I don't want). Anyway, clicked on the link and despite Firefox running, iPlayer insisted on launching Internet Explorer. Go figure? Huh...conspiracy theorists apply here. :evil:


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## devonwoody (15 Feb 2008)

Maybe Roger, but Quicktime will try to do that on PC's. (So I have uninstalled quicktime). Therefore Apple are just as guilty.


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## RogerS (15 Feb 2008)

devonwoody":146tp1wv said:


> Maybe Roger, but Quicktime will try to do that on PC's. (So I have uninstalled quicktime). Therefore Apple are just as guilty.



What - load Internet Explorer or, as I suspect in your case, start up to play something when you click on the something. 

If this is the case then it's nothing to do with Quicktime per se just that when you installed QuickTime it politely asked you if you wanted to make it the default player for specific file types and you said 'Yes'.


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## devonwoody (15 Feb 2008)

No I didn't, when I install quicktime (I sometimes have to) I tell it it is not default player.
But the next time I open something from a folder/file it likes to stick its nose in, and then I uninstall it again. :wink:


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## RogerS (15 Feb 2008)

devonwoody":e2uob3cs said:


> No I didn't, when I install quicktime (I sometimes have to) I tell it it is not default player.
> But the next time I open something from a folder/file it likes to stick its nose in, and then I uninstall it again. :wink:



Well maybe it's trying to do you a favour as it knows it's streets ahead of Windows Media Player :wink:


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## Argee (14 Mar 2008)

I recently tried the iPlayer because some friends of mine raved about it. I was concerned about the peer sharing aspect and turned it off (I don't watch the stream, I download it all first). However, my AV programme reported a change in my "hosts" file and when I checked it had grown from less than 4Kb to over 240Kb, with some very "iffy" entries - not a good sign! I've since restored the hosts file, but my rootkit checker didn't like it either, so I doubt I'll be using iPlayer again - I'll stick to Radio Times and my digital off-air options (DVR and Sky+HD).

Ray.


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## mr (14 Mar 2008)

What were the "iffy entries"? 

Cheers Mike


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## RogerS (14 Mar 2008)

Argee":3kpasurq said:


> I recently tried the iPlayer because some friends of mine raved about it. I was concerned about the peer sharing aspect and turned it off (I don't watch the stream, I download it all first). However, my AV programme reported a change in my "hosts" file and when I checked it had grown from less than 4Kb to over 240Kb, with some very "iffy" entries - not a good sign! I've since restored the hosts file, but my rootkit checker didn't like it either, so I doubt I'll be using iPlayer again - I'll stick to Radio Times and my digital off-air options (DVR and Sky+HD).
> 
> Ray.



Which AV are you using, Ray? I'm using AVG and also iPlayer download on a PC laptop and it reported no errors.


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## mr (14 Mar 2008)

Now that the iPlayer has been announced for the iPhone what does this say for the supposed DRM issues. 

Cheers Mike


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## Argee (14 Mar 2008)

mr":3mimwhkf said:


> What were the "iffy entries"?


I've dumped the hosts file now, but this occurred whilst I still had peer-to-peer switched on. There were all sorts of teen sites, with a few porn sites thrown in, as I recall. Anyway, yards and yards of entries in the hosts file is never a good sign.



RogerS":3mimwhkf said:


> Which AV are you using, Ray? I'm using AVG and also iPlayer download on a PC laptop and it reported no errors.


I'm using AVG too, Roger, and this was on my standalone PC. My laptop is OK, maybe because I turned off peer-to-peer before I started using it on there? Try RootKit Reveal and see how you get on.

Ray.


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## RogerS (14 Mar 2008)

Squeaky clean  

Must be all those other sites, Ray :wink:


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## Argee (14 Mar 2008)

RogerS":67bfnlro said:


> Squeaky clean
> 
> Must be all those other sites, Ray :wink:


Joking aside, have a read of *this*. I'm not going to take any chances, paranoid or not, I can't be bothered with the possibility of future hassle. I thought my computer was sewn up tight as a tick, but after iPlayer, all that spurious stuff arrived. Definitely not co-incidence.

Ray.


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## RogerS (14 Mar 2008)

Interesting website and one I shall bookmark. Just had a quick peek under the hood and I have no spurious network activity nor is Kontiki running as far as I can see....or if it is then it's hardly using any CPU time. Maybe I'm benefiting from the comment made that the BBC closes down Kontiki (I think I read it correctly) when you stop using Download Manager.

Not aware that I have any peer-to-peer software running or capability enabled. Intriguing that your computer picked up stuff and yet mine is clean. Out of curiosity have you made much use of the BBC download service? I've only downloaded three programmes and so the BBC software is switched off most of the time.


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## Argee (14 Mar 2008)

RogerS":31qf1zmv said:


> Out of curiosity have you made much use of the BBC download service?


I downloaded one 30-minute programme onto the main PC, then the AV scan picked up the changed hosts file. I'd done nothing else that wasn't routine in the week prior, so I'm absolutely confident it wasn't any other site or application. I then switched off the peer-to-peer option in the iPlayer software - no trouble since, but also no downloads since. Today, I uninstalled it from the PC and ran "Kclean."

When I put it on the laptop, I downloaded one 30-minute programme and one hour-long programme with peer-to-peer turned off. No problems yet. I only mentioned it in the first place because a change to the hosts file is _*really *_unusual and *always *suspicious, in my book. I can live with having my laptop go wobbly, but not my main PC, hence the concern and subsequant action.

Ray.


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## Matt_S (14 Mar 2008)

What I find really ironic is the name i player when it doesnt work on macs! I guess it is internet player but they're obviously thought the i would sound cool like a ipod!

Can't use the download as I am a mac user, but watched ashes to ashes over net and paused literally every 30 secs....persevered as I had forgotten to video but won't be trying again! 

I also find it funny with the DRM things that you "apparently" can't download onto macs yet itunes sell some BBC programmes now hmmmm :shock:


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## RogerS (14 Mar 2008)

Ashley Highfield (Head of BBC Interactive Services or whatever) used to hold a senior position with Microsoft. I'm sure that that has nothing at all to do with the lack of support for Macs. Although, allegedly, we should be getting the download service at the end of 2008.


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## devonwoody (14 Mar 2008)

Ray, would the BBC I player have any reason to attack at your PC?


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## Argee (14 Mar 2008)

devonwoody":15q2mzp5 said:


> Ray, would the BBC I player have any reason to attack at your PC?


Do you know something I don't? Maybe I nicked someone years ago and they recognised me from my (NAT-protected) IP address - I don't think so! 

No, it's not the iPlayer, but the Kontiki system that it uses that seems to be causing my apparent problems.

Ray.


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## mr (14 Mar 2008)

RogerS":104bgq03 said:


> Interesting website and one I shall bookmark. Just had a quick peek under the hood and I have no spurious network activity nor is Kontiki running as far as I can see...



Kontiki runs as an automatically started service under the name Kserver I believe. If you try to run kclean it will not be able to uninstall Kontiki nor will you be able to delete kontiki.exe or whatever it's called until you halt the service. 

Cheers Mike


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## devonwoody (15 Mar 2008)

Would the above please explain to me what to do to find Kontiki and what action to take, I have looked at one I player program in the past. I run windows xp .


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## mr (15 Mar 2008)

DW
Kontiki lives in a folder called Kontiki in the c:\windows\program files directory. 
You need an uninstaller for it called Kclean which you can get from here http://paul.damien.googlepages.com/KClean.exe 

However if Kontiki is installed and running as a service as it will be kclean will not clean it out completely. You will need to locate the service which from memory is called Kservice - perhaps someone can confirm this - halt it and then delete it. 

TO locate the service on XP open the control panel, click performance and maintenance and then services and have a look through the list of services running. 

Cheers Mike


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## devonwoody (16 Mar 2008)

OK, had a look in programs (C drive) and I have a Kontiki folder, inside is I player etc.
What harm is it doing me?


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## mr (16 Mar 2008)

from my limited knowledge of it, it appears to be a peer to peer type application which allows other Kontiki "users" to connect to your machine and you to theirs in order to distribute bbc iPlayer content. In itself there is nothing wrong with that, it is a perfectly good way of distributing content IMHO. However the user, you and me, has no control over the application meaning that it continues to keep the connection open and continues distributing the content using up your bandwidth. If you have a restricted bandwidth package say 2 gb and are charged for overage you might find yourself running into extra charges quite quickily without realising why. In itself there is nothing harmful about the software and Verisign who own Kontiki are a reputable bunch, their business is in fact founded on reputation. The problem is the users lack of understanding basically which is caused by lack of explanation by the systems which install it - iPlayer, Sky online player etc. 

Cheers Mike


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## devonwoody (16 Mar 2008)

Thanks Mr. no problem for me at the moment, I am cable virgin and no download restrictions at present. If things change I will have to ditch it of course. 

Thanks again.


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