# Kitchen cabinets - like no one makes em



## philxyz (16 Sep 2022)

Hello, beginner here, planning my first kitchen build.

Why does no one build cabinets using a wood frame structure skinned with a thin(nish) ply?

I have a drawng which saves me loads of ply. Looks great in CAD. No idea how it might stand up. I could add diagonal(?) support to brace the square in the absence of the back panel. 

But I guess there's good reason why everyone uses 18mm ply board boxes. I don't know.

Thanks
Phil


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## rogxwhit (16 Sep 2022)

It's a bit hypothetical at this point Phil, but normally one's sense of structure is based on experience. From yr brief description I can't see anything wrong. 

But you haven't explained a huge amount. 

Maybe the crux is that you have to hang doors / drawers / shelves etc off something, which in yr frame / panel model wld need frame members to be designed in at suitable positions?


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## deema (16 Sep 2022)

Nothing wrong with your approach, it’s the way cabinets used to be made. Where time is money, it’s not the most economic way of making cabinets these days, with modern materials.


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## philxyz (17 Sep 2022)

Thanks very much for the replies.

"But you haven't explained a huge amount."

TBH I am a little unsure what info is useful and I am only beginning to plan, but here's a go.

-All units will be on ground and pinned to walls
-Fully integrated kitchen appliances

I am thinking 40*70 frame, maybe maple? With 6mm birch ply skin (dare I consider 3mm) and 12mm ply shelves. But is that way too light?

-Would a 40*70 frame on the ground, pinned to wall, be strong enough for fridge freezer and dishwasher?
-How wpuld you joint the framing?
-Would you put some diagonal support to brace the square (not in my image)?

I have never done this but OK with table saw, router etc.

Here are a couple of CAD pics I did today to gove an idea so far. Those top four units are more general storage for a small house.


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## Jameshow (17 Sep 2022)

philxyz said:


> Hello, beginner here, planning my first kitchen build.
> 
> Why does no one build cabinets using a wood frame structure skinned with a thin(nish) ply?
> 
> ...


AFAIK the old postwar kitchens where made like this 1" corners and 1/8"mm plywood glued over the sides, back etc. 

3ft for a double unit.


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## Ollie78 (17 Sep 2022)

The reason I think people stay away from the method of frames with inserted panels is simply time. 
These are more labour intensive than just squares of mdf (decent plywood is quite a bit more expensive than mdf as well).
You need to do joints and router slots etc.with a frame. 
With mdf you just whack in a few domino's or screws and it's done.

A kitchen manufacturing line takes 8 minutes to eat mdf at one end and spit out a finished cabinet at the other.
It is mostly not worth building your own carcasses unless you are going very posh.

Ollie


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## philxyz (17 Sep 2022)

Thanks Ollie. I get what you're saying but perhaps it makes sense for me. First ever house, approaching retirement. I will have time and no money. I have a router and access to a table saw. This will probably be the only kitchen I ever build so I am happy to take it slow.

And, in blissfull inexperience I reckon I can save on materials. Done in same materials the frame/skin method is cheaper, right? It couldnt get cheaper material wise than frame/skin with pine and mdf could it? Although I must admit I am thinking maple and birch ply.


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## robgul (17 Sep 2022)

Back in the 50s'60s/70s Liden Whitewood (in Lea Bridge Road, London E10) made kitchen and other furniture with frames and thin plywood - supplied un-painted. Liden was one of a large number of furniture makers in the E/NE London area - the North Circular at Edmonton was home to Nathan, Wrighton plus others and in Tottenham there was a massive Harris Lebus factory.

Google "Liden furniture" and there's load of stuff on the subject.

I installed a Liden kitchen (i.e. the cabinets) in the first home of my own in about 1970.


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## Ollie78 (17 Sep 2022)

philxyz said:


> Thanks Ollie. I get what you're saying but perhaps it makes sense for me. First ever house, approaching retirement. I will have time and no money. I have a router and access to a table saw. This will probably be the only kitchen I ever build so I am happy to take it slow.
> 
> And, in blissfull inexperience I reckon I can save on materials. Done in same materials the frame/skin method is cheaper, right? It couldnt get cheaper material wise than frame/skin with pine and mdf could it? Although I must admit I am thinking maple and birch ply.


If you have the time an inclination then there is nothing wrong with the frame method at all. It will probably be a lovely kitchen.
You can make it exactly to your own design.
Price wise not sure if it will be much different. If using thinner panels I would stick to plywood. Maple and birch ply could be great looking.

Don't forget about the hinges and runners, don't cheap out on them.

Ollie


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## niall Y (18 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> AFAIK the old postwar kitchens where made like this 1" corners and 1/8"mm plywood glued over the sides, back etc.
> 
> 3ft for a double unit.


My goodness.... that's a 'blast from the past' I remember this style of cabinet. I had some in my bedroom as a 'kid' Those particular ones came unfinished and had to be painted by the customer. They were very light-weight and felt a little 'gutless'


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## peter-harrison (19 Sep 2022)

They were made that way because of the rationing of materials during and after the second world war. There was a table of materials for every piece of furniture and they were inspected to see that the makers hadn't used too much.
This recreated artificially the mediaeval order where materials were expensive and labour cheap. People used their ingenuity to get good results from not much. 
I've taken several pieces apart and it's amazing how little there is in them, I'm pretty sure that 3 or 4mm ply was very much used.
Although it's not an approach that would work for a modern day furniture maker, it could well be absolutely right for you. 
I would recommend that you spend a lot of time drawing and planning, and make a prototype, or at least one of the smaller cabinets first. The Utility furniture would have been prototyped and any kinks sorted. It would be a pity if you cut up all your timber and then found you'd made a basic error.
Good luck!


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

philxyz said:


> Why does no one build cabinets using a wood frame structure skinned with a thin(nish) ply?


I would say because of the so called euro 32 system where a factory can throw out a mass produced cabinet with little hands on skill. We are in a world of chipboard and foiled mdf but don't let that stop you thinking of more traditional assembly. 


Ollie78 said:


> With mdf you just whack in a few domino's or screws and it's done.


The modern way, quick and easy but you get an mdf cabinet, I like using a wooden frame with 12mm ply panels, it gives a solid traditional look that you don't get with a shed kitchen. The groves are easily cut on a router table or with a handheld router and jig but they do take more time so you need a batch process where all cuts are done at the same time, it saves the set up time. Another plus is that with butting man made sheet material together you must have perfect clean cuts, with a ply panel in a frame the edges of the panel do not need to be perfect as they sit in the slots. With ply you will at some point need to edge it with real wood and using these cutters sorts that one out, 






from here, Edge Banding Bits - Infinity Tools

This is a plan view of a unit I am currently working on, double shaws sink with three cabinets each side using frame and panels with inset doors.


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## D_W (19 Sep 2022)

My older kitchen cabinets were more or less stick frame in place in the kitchen and face frame attached - plywood on the bottoms and sides where necessary. Worked great for probably about 45 years. 

I made 1/2" ply box cabinets with face frames but all of the shelves and bottoms are dadoed. They're 10 times as strong as the original cabinets (but don't need to be, they just are). 

I don't have a great answer for you other than having worked in a cabinet factory during college, the plywood bits come out of a CNC off of an order roll, fully digitized even back then (1990s) with a ticket and ID for every part, and "the clamps" would assemble a cabinet and install a face frame in less than two minute. 

Much of what's made here now is 3/4" stock, often particle and not ply, and held with designed fasteners. More or less factory-made RTA where the A is already done. 

I bought ply with two A faces so that all parts of it would look good. The cost at the time for cherry was only a little bit more for one A face, and the core is wood with very little glue. It was a treat to work with because the veneer wasn't super thin and the core could be worked with hand or power tools smoothly because it wasn't mostly hard adhesive.


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## recipio (19 Sep 2022)

I counted over 80 joints in that structure. Even using pocket screws it will be very labour intensive. You will also have the problem of mounting hinges and drawer runners.
The Yanks like a hybrid system. They screw plywood together to make boxes and put a face frame on the front. It has some merits - you can use a quality hardwood on the front to match doors and drawer fronts. You can also use cheap self closing hinges if you don't mind the appearance. There is probably no way of avoiding soft close runners for drawers as everybody likes them. I built my kitchen out of ash using this method thinking it would last 10 years - it's still there after 30 years.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

I tend to use dowels to join frames together, yes can be time consuming but always precise and the joints close nicely without having to heavily clamp. What I like is that you can make it in parts and no rush to assemble, but with dowels you don't want to many to fit and glue in one go. I do have a domino 700 but that now lives in the shed with the lawnmower, my dowel jigs are just so precise and easy to use with 100% accuracy everytime, not most of the time.


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## D_W (19 Sep 2022)

recipio said:


> I counted over 80 joints in that structure. Even using pocket screws it will be very labour intensive. You will also have the problem of mounting hinges and drawer runners.
> The Yanks like a hybrid system. They screw plywood together to make boxes and put a face frame on the front. It has some merits - you can use a quality hardwood on the front to match doors and drawer fronts. You can also use cheap self closing hinges if you don't mind the appearance. There is probably no way of avoiding soft close runners for drawers as everybody likes them. I built my kitchen out of ash using this method thinking it would last 10 years - it's still there after 30 years.



There's a little bit of everything here. Assembled box either with glue/staples or screws is common - in smaller shops making cabinets probably all screws. 

There's plenty of frameless cabinet offerings, too - especially in commercial spaces.

The builder cabinets at home stores look like they're made a lot the same way we had ply or particle boxes (staple and hot glue) way back in 1996 - not sure what the doors are, but they're generally pretty crude. As in, the rails and stiles are wood, but I'm not sure about the center panels. if they're oak (red oak is super cheap here). Once they look like maple, all bets are off. "plus quality" cabinets that my inlaws got in a new house look very nice, but I think all of it is very well done adhesive veneer or substrate or some other industrial process. 

I put in cabinets of solid wood and my wife often remarks that she likes the inlaws cabinets better because they don't "look dirty" (her word for any grain variation is "dirt".."the wood looks dirty")


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## clogs (19 Sep 2022)

made a lot of kitchns in Africa for new houses...
I actually took a Wadkin panel saw to do it....
face framed and ply....
no backs, straight onto the painted wall....2x1"s Hilti nailed battens.....
very rough job and these were 1/2 million pound houses 28 years ago....
talk about embarrassing.....
same for fitted wardrobes as well.....utter rubbish....
Philxyz....
there was a v nice hand made kitchen in the US featured on here...the educated members will prob know it....


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> there was a v nice hand made kitchen in the US featured on here


Yes thanks for reminding us, it was really well thought out so will look for a link to it.









New kitchen


Installing a new kitchen at my house.




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## Terry - Somerset (19 Sep 2022)

If you like the idea of constructing frames with ply sides, then I would not dream of dissuading you. It may be satisfying to do the full job but I would not follow this approach - MDF is quick and cheap to manufacture:

buyers can easily change the number and position of shelves using simple shelf supports
durable, - particularly with 18mm thick carcasses which are the norm
rigid - thin ply is not, possibly OK if supported by a frame and adjacent units
easier to finish as surface is flat - unless you want the face grain
easier to clean - fewer joints to collect dirt 
with foil covering requires no finishing bar visible cut ends (eg: tops will be covered by worktop, backs not visible)
There may be little difference in material cost (although I have not done the calculations).

I also suspect that for the cabinets there may be little difference between your material cost vs the cost of buying completed cabinets (buying power of manufacturers). Doors and trim by comparison always seem expensive and this is where the larger savings may be possible on a DIY basis


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## Lefley (20 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I tend to use dowels to join frames together, yes can be time consuming but always precise and the joints close nicely without having to heavily clamp. What I like is that you can make it in parts and no rush to assemble, but with dowels you don't want to many to fit and glue in one go. I do have a domino 700 but that now lives in the shed with the lawnmower, my dowel jigs are just so precise and easy to use with 100% accuracy everytime, not most of the time.


What are your dowel jigs?


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## Spectric (20 Sep 2022)

Lefley said:


> What are your dowel jigs?


The one I started out with is a Dowelmax, absolutely top notch engineering and precision every time. I have used it for hundreds of 10mm dowels and I can honestly say that I have never had a problem with alignment. This gives an idea,






The only issue is that it can be a slow process, not so much the drilling but the gluing and insertion of all the dowels followed by clamping within the open time of the glue. I went down the route of buying a Domino XL700 in the hope of a faster method but although it makes a nice oblong hole with a precise depth I have found getting precise location to be hit and miss which is no good because you have to re make that part. They do provide a sloppy setting which helps with alignment but not for me. 

So more recently I went for the Jessem doweling jig which is a cheaper option than a dowelmax because it comes with 6,8, 10 and 12 mm drill guides unlike the Dowelmax that comes with just 10mm but you can buy the others. Everything is give and take, the dowelmax has the clamping built in, the Jessem you need to clamp but the one thing that I do like about the Jessem is you can not only offset the drill guide without unclamping it from the workpiece but also in 2mm increments which gives better flexability when it comes to your dowel pattern.

This thread was something I posted giving a comparison, Dowelmax, Jessem and XL700


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## recipio (20 Sep 2022)

There is no end of bespoke hardware now for kitchens but i would just screw the boxes together using _confirmat_ screws using 18mm ply. The important thing is to have a good saw to cut dead square panels with a chip free cutline. There is something very satisfying if you have an efficient build method.


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## Spectric (20 Sep 2022)

recipio said:


> together using _confirmat_ screws


Not forgetting the special drill bit needed.


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## RobinBHM (20 Sep 2022)

Melamine faced MDF, track saw, confirmation screws.

Quick n easy carcases and a hard wearing pre finished cabinet interior.


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## cowtown_eric (21 Sep 2022)

Marples 148....Get/make long rods and you can dowel base cabinet gables with precision in you want!


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## Seascaper (21 Sep 2022)

philxyz said:


> Hello, beginner here, planning my first kitchen build.
> 
> Why does no one build cabinets using a wood frame structure skinned with a thin(nish) ply?
> 
> ...


There is one company not using ply and chip, solidwoodkitchenunits they call themselves, all made in the uk and prices seem good compared to mainstream ply and chip.


philxyz said:


> Hello, beginner here, planning my first kitchen build.
> 
> Why does no one build cabinets using a wood frame structure skinned with a thin(nish) ply?
> 
> ...


Hello,
Take a look at Solid Wood Kitchen Cabinets this is one company not using chip and ply, all solid wood, and prices are realistic,
Regards


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## jetsetwilly (22 Sep 2022)

Not sure how relevant this is but diy camper van builds sometimes involve frames clad in thin ply for lightness (although even here solid 15/18mm sheets dominate these days). Eg Deep Red - A self-build motorhome - home page


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## robgul (23 Sep 2022)

Seascaper said:


> There is one company not using ply and chip, solidwoodkitchenunits they call themselves, all made in the uk and prices seem good compared to mainstream ply and chip.
> 
> Hello,
> Take a look at Solid Wood Kitchen Cabinets this is one company not using chip and ply, all solid wood, and prices are realistic,
> Regards



Hmm - the products look quite good but to appear to be "solid oak" but not solid oak as one might expect - looks like loads of thinner than normal strips laminated together to make boards (a bit like Oak Furniturelan stuff) - rather than the more usual wider boards in oak kitchens?


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## Jar944 (23 Sep 2022)

recipio said:


> The Yanks like a hybrid system. They screw plywood together to make boxes and put a face frame on the front. It has some merits - you can use a quality hardwood on the front to match doors and drawer fronts. You can also use cheap self closing hinges if you don't mind the appearance.



I thought face frame cabinets were a thing on your side as well?


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## Jar944 (23 Sep 2022)

philxyz said:


> Thanks very much for the replies.
> 
> "But you haven't explained a huge amount."
> 
> ...



That seems like material and labor would be more than a conventional build. You can build large boxes with 12mm and just stick frames (or doors/drawers) on the front. It doesn't need to be one box per cabinet.


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## recipio (23 Sep 2022)

Jar944 said:


> I thought face frame cabinets were a thing on your side as well?


Not really. The Euro 32 system is pretty well used by all commercial suppliers now. Of course there are bespoke makers who will do face frames but they tend to be high end. I'm basing my observations on all the books and YouTube videos I see from the US.


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## Jar944 (23 Sep 2022)

recipio said:


> Not really. The Euro 32 system is pretty well used by all commercial suppliers now. Of course there are bespoke makers who will do face frames but they tend to be high end. I'm basing my observations on all the books and YouTube videos I see from the US.


You are correct, I don't personally know anyone who has euro cabinets in their home. The majority are faceframe with overlay doors. On the commercial side they are almost exclusively euro. For residental a small percentage are inset, but as expected it's only the higher end market.


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## Lefley (26 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> The one I started out with is a Dowelmax, absolutely top notch engineering and precision every time. I have used it for hundreds of 10mm dowels and I can honestly say that I have never had a problem with alignment. This gives an idea,
> View attachment 143867
> 
> 
> ...


Well after reading your detail articles and then googling a lot of other articles. I’m going to order the jessem. Thanks for your detailed reviews. They really helped.


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## Spectric (26 Sep 2022)

Lefley said:


> Well after reading your detail articles and then googling a lot of other articles. I’m going to order the jessem.



You will need to get your head round the method of marking, once it's mastered then the sky is the limit. The Jessem mentions aligning a centre line, personaly I align from the end which I find works perfect. On your workpieces mark them up so a cross is the joint face where your dowels will go and the two flush faces have a tick on them like this 






Now the objective is to have the dowel pattern mirrored on both faces so clamp the jig to the tick mark face and edge align to the other tick and repeat for the other side bearing in mind the jig is symetrical from both ends. Now I find that I don't always get the dowels where I would like them with it set flush to the end tick mark so I use a Kreg multi tool






which allows me to place the end face a set distance in / out and be able to do exactly the same on the mating piece without any measuring.

Hope this helps get you started.


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## Spectric (27 Sep 2022)

Also get yourself some decent one handed clamps, they make life easier.


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