# Tenon sizing



## Bloc75

So I've been designing my workbench, and have decided to tackle mortise and tenons. I originally designed the base stretchers with a 50 x 100mm stock, obviously it's going to come in at 48mm x 100mm, which is fine, I can make those adjustments - but I just wanted some advice on the size of the tenon's. I'm also going to be doing it as a through tenon - so they will be 48mm long, and I had them at 22mm wide and 72mm high, does that feel too much?

I know about the thirds thing, and it's just a rule of thumb, but this should still work fine right?


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## Fitzroy

The rule of thirds is based on the mortice rather than the tenon. I size mine to match a chisel or forstner bit size I have.


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## Adam W.

Should be ok, but why don't you make them the full 100mm for ease or is it a beautiful ornate workbench ?


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## Bloc75

100mm high?


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## Adam W.

Yep. It just makes life a bit easier, especially if its your first bash at it.


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## Bloc75

Fitzroy said:


> The rule of thirds is based on the mortice rather than the tenon. I size mine to match a chisel or forstner bit size I have.



I'm going to make a jig for it and use my Router.


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## Bloc75

Adam W. said:


> Yep. It just makes life a bit easier, especially if its your first bash at it.



So then it won't be a mortise-and-tenon joint?

I'm not bothered about it being easier, it's also not my first project around the house - so I'm fairly happy that if I prepare well in advance it should turn out ok. If I mess it up, then I make sure the next attempt is better. 

Hopefully.


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## Adam W.

Still a mortise and tenon joint just full width/ height or whatever you want to call it.

How are you going to secure the tenons in the mortise ?


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## Bloc75

Hmm, but won't the mortise then be 100mm high? In a piece of stock that is already 100m high?

Apologies if I've misunderstood.

I am going to glue them in.


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## Bloc75




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## Adam W.

Oh, I see. I thought it was a stretcher between the legs.

Looking a bit closer at your diagram, the ones at the corner will easily break, as there's insufficient timber at the edge.

If I was building it , I'd make both the edge pieces the same and make them go the full length and that makes both ends the same too. No room for error then.

And I'd use a jolly big dovetail at each corner. It's no harder to cut than a mortise and tenon and will look so smart that you'll be chuffed with yourself for ever and ever.


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## Bloc75

I probably didn't term it very well.


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## Bloc75

Adam W. said:


> Oh, I see. I thought it was a stretcher between the legs.
> 
> Looking a bit closer at your diagram, the ones at the corner will easily break, as there's insutficient timber at the edge



Fair comment. Tenon's/mortise could be reduced in width?

What would be sufficient?

Suppose I could not make them through joints.


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## Bloc75

Adam W. said:


> Oh, I see. I thought it was a stretcher between the legs.
> 
> Looking a bit closer at your diagram, the ones at the corner will easily break, as there's insufficient timber at the edge.
> 
> If I was building it , I'd make both the edge pieces the same and make them go the full length and that makes both ends the same too. No room for error then.
> 
> And I'd use a jolly big dovetail at each corner. It's no harder to cut than a mortise and tenon and will look so smart that you'll be chuffed with yourself for ever and ever.



I could do that. Not even thought about Dovetails.


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## Adam W.

It's the wrong king of joint for that position. Dovetails will be better and they're easy to do.

Just google Frank Klausz 3 minute dovetails. Just don't use his bigger hammer trick or you'll split the wood.


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## Bloc75

Adam W. said:


> It's the wrong king of joint for that position. Dovetails will be better and they're easy to do.
> 
> Just google Frank Klausz 3 minute dovetails.




I actually quite like this idea, improves my skills and experience too.

I mean I'm a little bit late in life to be doing this as more than a hobby, but if I am a creative, and I'm a computer engineer, so I have faith that I can do something to be proud of.


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## Bloc75

Hmm, it didn't look pretty - but I guess the point wasn't about precision.

What about a corner bridle joint?


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## Adam W.

No, but you can make it pretty. Strength is what matters. Dovetails used to be run of the mill hold cheap boxes together stuff and that's what he's doing there. Yours will be a lot nicer if you take your time.

Just dive straight in and enjoy yourself. It's all pretty basic, just some people like to make it sound difficult

If you make a mistake, you'll learn a lot more than doing it right first time. Bridle joints aren't as strong as dovetails.


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## Bloc75

I'll have to do a deep dive on them as it's not something I initially thought about. 

Thanks for the advice.


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## Adam W.

Pretty dovetails.



Just make yours go all the way through like Franks.


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## Bloc75

So just to confirm, you suggesting I make the long pieces go full length, and then the end smaller pieces fit inside?


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## Adam W.

Did you see those beautiful chisels Kaare has ?


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## Bloc75

Not yet, I'm going to watch it after my dinner.


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## Adam W.

Keep an eye out for them, they're lovely.



Bloc75 said:


> So just to confirm, you suggesting I make the long pieces go full length, and then the end smaller pieces fit inside?


Yes. 
Do a sketch and someone will check it over. And you should practice and make a drawer for your bench first.


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## Bloc75

Well I've got a few drawers for the overall bench design already done (in design). Not ready to share just yet, I want to make sure I'm making the right decisions on jointing first.


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## Adam W.

Dovetails for corners.


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## Fitzroy

Do you have a sketch of the whole bench. I’d be using bridle joints personally, but I’m struggling to understand how the piece you’ve shown incorporates into the whole bench.
Fitz.


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## Adam W.

I think he's in America at the moment getting chisel envy.


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## Bloc75

Does this work? I've gone 14mm from the top on the edges, tapering into 21mm from the top on the thinner part of the dove joint.


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## Bloc75

Adam W. said:


> I think he's in America at the moment getting chisel envy.



I'm North Wales.


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## Adam W.

I was joking about you being in virtual America watching Colonial Williamsburg and theose beautiful chisels. Every time I watch it I get chisel envy.



Bloc75 said:


> Does this work? I've gone 14mm from the top on the edges, tapering into 21mm from the top on the thinner part of the dove joint.



Anyways, you've got the dovetail the wrong way round. It's like this......





See how it's locked together.


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## Bloc75

Hmm, if it's a corner piece, why does it matter which side has the pins and the tails?


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## Adam W.

Not really if it's a square box.

I cut pins first and stand the piece end on, on top of the other piece as a template, so I would cut the pins in the short pieces.

If you watch that video a couple of times and Frank Klausz' videos, he does the same. Note how all Kaare Loftheims' pieces are numbered, that's because you use one piece as a template for the other.

You won't be able to mix things around, so numbering the timber is essential.


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## Bloc75

Ok, but on my piece of work I shown you, the short piece had the pins and the long piece had the tails. I think I may change it to have 3 pins and tails though.


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## Adam W.

Well you have half tails at top and bottom. The pin bit is pushed into the other piece when you assemble the piece, and that should be the short bit. The long bit has the hole cut into it to receive the pin. With one big dovetail pin in a joint you have a half tail at the top and a half tail at the bottom. 

Get your drawing the right way round first and we'll talk about dimensions later.

I'll take a picture of a box I'm making and post it later today so you can see what's going on


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## Adam W.

Because yours is framing the dovetails can be beefed up.

In your drawing you've got the big pin splaying the wrong way and it won't lock together.


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## Bloc75

So the light grey is the short piece and has the pins. The dark grey is the long piece with the tails.


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## Adam W.

Do those pins splay ?

The more pins you have, the longer and more difficult it is to cut the joint. I'd do a drawer like that but my framing will only have one or two pins at the most.

Big pins, big tails = Easy life.


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## Bloc75

So I'll do 2 pins, easy enough for me to change.


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## Bloc75

Bigger pins and tails.


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## Adam W.

Now you're getting there.

I'm going to cut one joint today in a piece of 2x4 and photograph it for you and you can see what I'd do. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.

I trained on oak framing, so I cut big strong joints in framing. For me, it needs to be done quickly, as there's so much of it in a building and it needs to be strong. Keeping it as simple as possible is essential with bigger bits of wood.


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## Adam W.

I've got to go now, so we'll speak later today.


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## Bloc75

Yeah my day job calls too. Thanks for the advice.


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## Austin Branson

Hello Bloc75, you’ve had some excellent advice there, and I would agree with everyone and everything. The only real concern that I can offer, is what timber are you using? I would recommend a fine grained hardwood, beech is ideal. If you’re trying to use a softwood, such as construction spruce, cutting straight lines along the grain using a handsaw requires a VERY sharp saw. It gets quite tricky encountering the soft growth of summer, and the harder growth of winter. Good luck. Austin


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## Bloc75

Hi, well I wasn't set on any really, not yet, not until I got my dimensions correct.

These pieces are 2x4, and I'm going to need 2500mm length x 2, and something like 1100mm length x 6.

I originally had the design at 50mm x 100mm - but on reflection I know my local timber merchant will supply these at 48mm x 100mm - and then it's cheap, also don't think they do beech.

A quick Google and some planed all round beech for one of the longer pieces was around £70 - which is a little bit too high. So I am still kind of researching this.


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## Bloc75

Poplar at around £60 for one of the long lengths.


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## Sundial Colin

All joints rely on side grain to side grain for strength. If you have any end grain in the joint there will be little strength from that part. Your photo is showing a carcase but you have applied framing joints to make it. It is doomed to failure. You need dovetails or finger joints which will have side grain to side grain in the majority. The cross pieces joining the long lengths need the length go joint running along the grain of long lengths.


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## Bloc75

I've since added dovetails, see latest image.


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## Ttrees

Some great drawing there, what a great tool to have in your arsenal, never got round to gaining those skills, am jealous.

What bench or benches is this design based on?
From the look of this specific joint, and not the plan,
one might think you're having a go at a Scandinavian bench like Frank's,
as that joint is utilized for the tool well/end caps.

I suggest you give more insight on what sort of work you're planning on doing on this bench, i.e heavy hand work like chiseling and planing or something more along the lines of festtoolery and machinery, or is it for site work.

If you're going to do hand work, then everyone will suggest that you laminate lengths of timber to make a solid bench, which wouldn't be a hollow thing which will deform, acting as a trampoliene and also a subwoofer, as it looks to me like you're planning on using some sort of sheet material for the top.

All the best
Tom


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## Bloc75

Ttrees said:


> Some great drawing there, what a great tool to have in your arsenal, never got round to gaining those skills, am jealous.
> 
> What bench or benches is this design based on?
> From the look of this specific joint, and not the plan,
> one might think you're having a go at a Scandinavian bench like Frank's,
> as that joint is utilized for the tool well/end caps.
> 
> I suggest you give more insight on what sort of work you're planning on doing on this bench, i.e heavy hand work like chiseling and planing or something more along the lines of festtoolery and machinery, or is it for site work.
> 
> If you're going to do hand work, then everyone will suggest that you laminate lengths of timber to make a solid bench, which wouldn't be a hollow thing which will deform, acting as a trampoliene and also a subwoofer, as it looks to me like you're planning on using some sort of sheet material for the top.
> 
> All the best
> Tom



It's just using Fusion 360, I have the year free trial and making good use of it.

It's not really based on anything in particular.

It's going to be more for housing power tools like a Router table, table saw and mitre saw. As well as storage.


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## Bloc75

I'm thinking of putting 2 more legs in the middle for extra support.


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## Bloc75

This is where I got to before I went back and started to update my joints. Every section is in it's own file so I can edit them individually as separate components, gives me better focus.


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## Bloc75

And this is a view from the other side.


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## Nelly111s

Here's what a single large dovetail would look like, also just knocked up in Fusion


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## Bloc75

Yeah I think I've got the hang of it now. How do you find Fusion?


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## Ttrees

I must get meself a proper computer for all these things!
That looks handy
I can't suggest what will work best with your design, regarding the integrated tools, presumably you've got it designed specifically for the room.
What I see might be an issue in some areas is there's no where for your feet to go.
That might be important on the opposite end of the bench to the TS
as it looks like a vice is going there.

Going back to your dovetail question, 
there is a rough rule of thumb for the splay of the tails.
One in six is recommended for softwood, and one in seven is for hardwoods, 
Cosman has made a good video about that, but more so regarding small boxes, he has a good eye for aesthetics. 
Suppose that's easy with the computer, but for those who don't have the skills, a good watch.


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## Bloc75

Not really thought about where my feet would go. I could remedy that though I suppose by pinching in the sides at the bottom.


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## Nelly111s

Bloc75 said:


> Yeah I think I've got the hang of it now. How do you find Fusion?



I think it's good / great. Last week I watched a whole week of LiveStreams about furniture design using Fusion. First time I've ever done that sort of thing. Some of the tips I learnt were fantastic. The parametric design is great, not just for multiple sizes, but if you decide to make something from different sized stock , you can update the whole design by changing one number! The whole series is available on YouTube.

Also, for workbench design, you could do a lot worse than watching this video. There's more in the series if you feel the need. Might give you a help with your design?

Matt Estlea power tool workbench


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## Bloc75

Interesting you should say that, I'm on Part 7 of that series, going to finish it off tonight. His delivery is great and the fact he makes mistakes encourages me. I am so envious though of that Planer he uses.


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## Nelly111s

Bloc75 said:


> Interesting you should say that, I'm on Part 7 of that series, going to finish it off tonight. His delivery is great and the fact he makes mistakes encourages me. I am so envious though of that Planer he uses.



I've met him a few times - he's a nice guy.

I have a better planer than him though


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## Bloc75

I really don't think my missus is going to allow me to drop 4 figure on something like that, plus it's a bit silly if this is still at the hobby stage.


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## Nelly111s

This is the link to the Fusion livestream I watched (first episode)

Fusion YouTube


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## Bloc75

thanks. I'll queue that up and take a look.


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## Fitzroy

This is not meant to be discouraging so please do not take it that way, but your workbench design is very non-routine!

There are certain functions of a workbench that have over the many years of woodworking proved themselves important. For example work holding for the various tasks of planning face and edge, sawing, chiselling, and resistance to wracking, tool wells to allow a work piece to sail over the tools in use, comfort factors like where your feet go etc etc.

Your design is so unique I feel you've started from a blank sheet of paper and my concern is you will spend a lot of time building a bench that fails at many of these crucial functions / hard learned lessons.

I can see your bench is not a trad roubo/english/french design so doubt you want what I am aiming for. But I think a more basic frame, similar to the one in this video could result in a far simpler build that will resist wracking and give you a stable platform to incorporate the other elements that are important to you.

Regards

Fitz


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## Bloc75

Hmm, I'm not discouraged at all.

I haven't just walked into this with a scrap of paper and some crayons. I've done research, and still am doing research. I have a fairly limited space and I want to equip it with the tools that will do the job that I feel I'll be doing often.

I've seen loads of workbenches, lots. Watched plenty of videos of people incorporating power tools into their benches. I'm also big on organisation and storage, hence the drawers. 

Thanks for the video link, but I could just buy one of them, it doesn't really inspire me or do what I need it to do. 

I am though going to consider what I can change to make it more ergonomic and functional, it's part of the process, and the way I have designed it in Fusion, I can change things around quite quickly before I complete the design.


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## Bloc75

Also worth noting I have got plans to add dog holes to the top, I just hadn't gotten around to putting them in the design just yet.


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## Bloc75

I couldn't find anything about Wracking, but Racking came up - is that what you meant?

I have got a vice at one end going full width of that end, and I understand the mechanics about pressure distribution.


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## Nelly111s

Wracking is normally used in woodwork to differentiate from racking (such as shelving). In the real world, which none of us on this forum live in, the terms are interchangeable. In this context its when a table assumes the shape of a parallelogram instead of being square becasue the design or construction doesn't prevent the top from moving left to right from the floor position. In a workbench like (I think) you're trying to make, it should be less of an issue. 
If it's an issue you need the old fashioned English way of "make it out of thicker stuff / bigger screws / use a larger hammer" .


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## Bloc75

Ok makes sense.

Also, I don't want people to think I don't appreciate the advice. I know i'm not an expert, but I have surprised myself with some of the stuff I've done last couple of years, and I feel that maybe woodworking was something I should have carried on with after school. 

But I do appreciate the advice, and I take it all on board.


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## Adam W.

Nelly111s said:


> Here's what a single large dovetail would look like, also just knocked up in FusionView attachment 108915
> View attachment 108916





Here's what a single dovetail looks like in real life, I knocked it up in a piece of wood ™ ....


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## Bloc75

I've got so much scrap in this workshop, I'm going to start practicing before the big build commences.

Thanks for the pic, appreciate it.


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## Ttrees

I had the impression from your comment you had a proper workbench for working on.
With space a concern, this proposed table with integrated machines will be far too wide, if you're intending to do any handwork, you need a proper bench to fit in the workshop too.

A recent thread on this below is likely something you will end up with.
I would have a pair of benches in that cozy workshop insead of the big table, and do away with anything that will have space not utilized. 









Small workshop layout ideas


Hello all, I've recently moved into a new house, which has given me a dedicated workshop space for the first time. After getting the bench and a few starter pieces for the house built, I'm now trying to work out the most effective layout, as there are a few features in the room to work around -...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk





Tom


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## Adam W.

Bloc75 said:


> I've got so much scrap in this workshop, I'm going to start practicing before the big build commences.
> 
> Thanks for the pic, appreciate it.


I have a walk through with loads of pictures, but it's the same as the Colonial Williamsburg video and theirs is much prettier than mine. Let me know if you want it.


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## Bloc75

Ttrees said:


> I had the impression from your comment you had a proper workbench for working on.
> With space a concern, this proposed table with integrated machines will be far too wide, if you're intending to do any handwork, you need a proper bench to fit in the workshop too.
> 
> A recent thread on this below is likely something you will end up with.
> I would have a pair of benches in that cozy workshop insead of the big table, and do away with anything that will have space not utilized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Small workshop layout ideas
> 
> 
> Hello all, I've recently moved into a new house, which has given me a dedicated workshop space for the first time. After getting the bench and a few starter pieces for the house built, I'm now trying to work out the most effective layout, as there are a few features in the room to work around -...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukworkshop.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom



I will still have room for what I intend to do in here, by saying small - I mean it's not a huge space, but I've worked it all out, I will have plenty of room, especially as I intend to use the workbench for storage as well as working on.


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## Bloc75

Adam W. said:


> I have a walk through with loads of pictures, but it's the same as the Colonial Williamsburg video and theirs is much prettier than mine. Let me know if you want it.



Well I think I have a decent grasp on the shape and how they connect, be interested to know the measurements you have used, as a frame of reference.


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## Adam W.

Bloc75 said:


> Well I think I have a decent grasp on the shape and how they connect, be interested to know the measurements you have used, as a frame of reference.



I didn't measure anything. Just scribed the thickness of the section on both pieces all the way round and cut the pin by eye. The pin then works as a template for the hole it goes into. Keep the flare angle of the pin sides at about 30º and you won't go wrong.


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## Bloc75

Ok, well I think I can have a go based on a few resources I have access to.


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## Jameshow

Interesting debate. 

Do you guys prefer a large bench in the middle of the workshop like the OT or several benches on the perimeter? 

I'm guessing what type of woodworking you envisage doing? Hand or machine each requires a different style if bench. 

Cheers James


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## Ttrees

Bloc75 said:


> I will still have room for what I intend to do in here, by saying small - I mean it's not a huge space, but I've worked it all out, I will have plenty of room, especially as I intend to use the workbench for storage as well as working on.


Make space for a work bench and don't make any compromises.
Then make the machines safe around your workflow.

I'd be worried about hitting the riving knife and getting shavings caught in the saw personally, and that's off the top of me head.
Not too safe to have stuff on top of what now effectively counting as the saw.

The bench is likely where you will spend most of your time.
You would be hitting your knees if planing something wide, as there is no overhang, so if you decide to go that route, then set the storage area into the frame where you'll be planing.

Tom


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## Bloc75

Ttrees said:


> Make space for a work bench and don't make any compromises.
> Then make the machines safe around your workflow.
> 
> I'd be worried about hitting the riving knife and getting shavings caught in the saw personally, and that's off the top of me head.
> Not too safe to have stuff on top of what now effectively counting as the saw.
> 
> The bench is likely where you will spend most of your time.
> You would be hitting your knees if planing something wide, as there is no overhang, so if you decide to go that route, then set the storage area into the frame where you'll be planing.
> 
> Tom



Yeah I'm going to look at the ergonomics next, and likely to either increase the top so its an overhang, or pinch in the sides to create it that way.

I solve problems for a living, I'm a software engineer, so this kind of stuff is right up my street.


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## Nelly111s

Adam W. said:


> Here's what a single dovetail looks like in real life, I knocked it up in a piece of wood ™ ....
> 
> View attachment 108939


Much nicer "in the flesh" so to speak. 
I can't work at present to to a shoulder operation, so drawing stuff (and practicing Fusion) is the next best thing.


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## Adam W.

I thought it was quite funny that you had drawn the very thing I had made


Bloc75 said:


> Poplar at around £60 for one of the long lengths.


Why don't you make it out of some quality C24 or C30 structural imported redwood ?

There's some really nice timber from places like Latvia on the market at the moment. Your local timber / builders merchants will have stacks of it and they should let you sort through it to find some straight and fairly knot free stuff.


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## Bloc75

i'm at my local merchants tomorrow to pick up some stock to finish off some cold frames and compost bins - so I'll have a look.


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