# Problems with my Festool saw, aaarrrgghh!



## johnelliott (17 Mar 2005)

I think I might have worn it out! It just won't cut a straight line anymore. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that it was still occasionally trimming bits of rubber off the edge of the saw guide, and the blade is definitely wandering slightly at the end of a cut, and now the cut isn't even in a straight line.
There's a little bit of play on the blade radially, the drive nut (not tightenable) is a little loose on the motor shaft, but I can't feel any side play
I'm on my fourth blade, BTW. I have no idea how many 8x4 sheets I've sliced into 70mm strips with it, and I use it for lots of other cutting tasks, so it might simply be worn out.
It is, however, guaranteed for 3 years, so I shall be going to my local service agents tomorrow to get it sorted out

Would I get another? You bet I would. In fact, if they can't fix it right away then I will be buying a new one to keep me going til this one is fixed

John


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## Steve Maskery (17 Mar 2005)

Dear John
Based largely on your enthusiasm (!) I took the plunge and bought one. I don't use it every day like you do, so I'm expecting it to last me donkey's years, BUT
I have to say, all its many plus-points aside, the noise it makes is ROUGH. I expected a nice WHIRRR but it sounds awful, gratey. Is this normal?

Concerned of Nottingham.


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## Aragorn (17 Mar 2005)

Agree with you on the noise thing - quite unexpected when I first used it!

John, I bet you've check this, but have the cams moved that keep the saw tight to the track?
This would account for the problems you're having.
How long have you had the saw now? Even with regular daily use it should last longer than 3 years IMHO.


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## Neil (17 Mar 2005)

Steve Maskery":3f5fkhsd said:


> I expected a nice WHIRRR but it sounds awful, gratey. Is this normal?


Exactly the same here, Steve - I was a bit surprised too - in fact I had to PM Aragorn to get reassurance that his was the same!

Neil


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## johnelliott (17 Mar 2005)

Aragorn":31ggd33i said:


> Agree with you on the noise thing - quite unexpected when I first used it!
> 
> John, I bet you've check this, but have the cams moved that keep the saw tight to the track?
> This would account for the problems you're having.
> How long have you had the saw now? Even with regular daily use it should last longer than 3 years IMHO.



I certainly did check the cams, they're OK. 
It'll be interesting to hear what the service people say, I'll report back

John


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## Jake (17 Mar 2005)

It is a pro warranty on a Festool, so there are no excuses unless it is accidental damage. I believe we are just about to find out one of the reasons they are expensive. At least I damn well hope so!


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## Jake (17 Mar 2005)

<i>In fact, if they can't fix it right away then I will be buying a new one to keep me going til this one is fixed </i>

I'd ask for a loaner while it is mended, if not from the shop, give Minden a call.


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## Woodythepecker (17 Mar 2005)

John probably way off line here, but have you checked the spacer wedge is set properly at the rear of the blade? Because this can make it wander if the setting has been knocked out.

While on this subject, ever since i have had the saw the speed has been set at the top setting number 6. But the other day it had some how got altered down to the lowest setting, which i found out about when i turned it on. This wasn't a problem but what i did noticed was that on setting 1 the motor sounded like it (what i can only describe) was pulsating and slowing down slightly for a spilt second before it speeds up again. This happens ever few seconds but only on setting one. Has anyone else found this?

As it was on the slowest speed i may never have noticed it except for one thing. In their catolouge Festool claim that the MMC electronics with 6 regulation and control functions retains a constant preset speed to allow optimum processing of a wide variety of materials.
I don't know about anyone else, but this says to me that it should not be pulsating or losing speed even though it is only for a spilt second at a time. 
What do you think?

Because John and Co were shouting from the rooftops how good this saw was, i had to check elsewhere so before i got mine i searched far and wide for reviews or comments on Festool products and i have to say except for the above i have never read a bad word about them, and in reality you cannot really say that any of this is what i would call a negative comment. So like John i would certainly buy another one if i needed too.

Regards

Woody


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## CHJ (18 Mar 2005)

Woodythepecker":3cf57i7s said:


> But the other day it had some how got altered down to the lowest setting, which i found out about when i turned it on. This wasn't a problem but what i did noticed was that on setting 1 the motor sounded like it (what i can only describe) was pulsating and slowing down slightly for a spilt second before it speeds up again. This happens ever few seconds but only on setting one.
> 
> What do you think?
> Woody



Does it still "pulse" whilst loaded (cutting)?

It sounds like the electronics to the Thyristor have got it wrong if it does. (or it was not setup correct in manufacture)

How worn are the brushes/armature? these circuits usually rely on feedback from the armature to determine power input to motor, anything that disrupts this could cause instability. 

Don't know about the specifics of the festal internals here so may have got it wrong, but it is my first guess.


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## CYC (18 Mar 2005)

Reading this only today, I am very impatient to hear about John...


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## SimonA (18 Mar 2005)

Just thinking out loud here guys, but wouldn't it be nice if we had a Festool represenative from Minden on the forum who could help us with all these questions? Maybe we should put this question forward to them, we are spending a lot of money with these people now!

Simon


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## johnelliott (18 Mar 2005)

Right, well, I just got back from the local Festool service agents, which happens to be the place I bought it from originally. I took a piece of ply that I had cut with it, which shows the worst feature of its current perfomance which is for the blade to run out of line at the end of the cut. Thus has the effect that the cut runs inside the desired line for about the last 20mm, and when that piece of ply is place against a straight piece as it would be in say the base of a cabinet against the side, the gap is clearly visible
Anyway, the chap I saw acknowledged that the saw was not right, and explained that the repair man wasn't there til Monday and he would show him the saw then. He also said that it was the first Festool saw that he had seen returned.
It would have been nice to have had someone look at it immediately, but what he was offering seemed reasonable bearing in mind that I had used the saw for 8 months.
I'm self employed, and going without my festool saw for what might turn out to be several days would be unthinkable, so I bought another one without all the bits and pieces.
I've only had a quick go with the new saw and it is definitely better although the radial play on the blade is noticeable, same as the old one

I'm expecting the service people to ring me on Monday, and will report on what is said (and done).

John


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## Neil (18 Mar 2005)

johnelliott":3gdgisvy said:


> I'm self employed, and going without my festool saw for what might turn out to be several days would be unthinkable, so I bought another one without all the bits and pieces.


I hope he gave you a good discount, John :shock: - I can completely understand why you had to have another one straight away, though...

Please keep us up to date on what happens... :? 

Neil


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## Woodythepecker (18 Mar 2005)

Chas, thanks for your reply. No it does not appear to do it while under load.

I presume as no one else has answered their saw does not act in this manner so my best bet would be to contact Festool.

I did not realise that there was a new model, when did this come out?

Regards

Woody


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## johnelliott (18 Mar 2005)

Woodythepecker":2fk3jo92 said:


> I did not realise that there was a new model, when did this come out?



Woody, not sure if you are referring to what I said about my 'new' saw, but if you are, then it isn't a new model, just new.

I've been using it this afternoon, it's a little bit quieter (but not much) and a little bit smoother. It cuts as well as the old one did up til a short while ago , in other words, very nicely indeed.

I reckon maybe it's the bearings on the output shaft. 

Another thing I've noticed about the new saw, it's trimming the rubber strips on my guides, so it shows that the distance from guide rail to sawblade does vary from one unit to the next. It also means that when I get the other one back that I can't treat them as being interchangeable. 

John


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## Manny (18 Mar 2005)

> ....used the saw for 8 months.



Doesn't sound long is it in constant use?


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## johnelliott (18 Mar 2005)

Manny":87fq1oqi said:


> > ....used the saw for 8 months.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't sound long is it in constant use?



Not constant, but a lot. I make kitchens and it does at least 95% of all the cutting. I have a table saw which I start up from time to time, but I get a better edge from the Festool, and the time save in sanding is worth the extra time it takes to set up each cut

John


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## Aragorn (18 Mar 2005)

johnelliott":10fyv005 said:


> Another thing I've noticed about the new saw, it's trimming the rubber strips on my guides, so it shows that the distance from guide rail to sawblade does vary from one unit to the next.


John, this would vary depending on how you set up the cams that keep it snug to the guide rail.


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## Jake (19 Mar 2005)

> I get a better edge from the Festool



I am a festool fanatic through and through, but surely that can only be a function of blade quality?


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## Steve Maskery (19 Mar 2005)

Jake
Yes, of course the blade quality is important (both quality of design as well as manufacture), but don't you think that the superb cut of the Festool is also partly due to the rubber edge of the guide and the plastic out-rider, which between them effectively create a zero-clearance cut?

Yes the blade is good, but it's not the only contributive factor.

My 2p.

Cheers
Steve


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## johnelliott (19 Mar 2005)

Aragorn":l862zbg9 said:


> johnelliott":l862zbg9 said:
> 
> 
> > Another thing I've noticed about the new saw, it's trimming the rubber strips on my guides, so it shows that the distance from guide rail to sawblade does vary from one unit to the next.
> ...



Not really, the function of the cams is to keep the wear pads cast into the baseplate of the saw close against the raised portion of the guide rail. The important factor here is that the relationship of the blade to the edge of the guide isn't variable by the cams which only act on _one_ side of the guide rail.
It might be possible to insert shims into the base against the wear pads but I can't see any way of holding them there
John


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## Aragorn (19 Mar 2005)

johnelliott":1bru08lu said:


> The important factor here is that the relationship of the blade to the edge of the guide isn't variable by the cams which only act on _one_ side of the guide rail.


You're quite right John - should have had a second look at the setup before I posted. My apologies.

Whilst this is all bad luck for you, I'm hoping that it is a one-off!
I would not hesitate to buy the Festool saw again, but at this price, I would be hard pressed to buy a new one every few years  
It does baffle me a bit that with all the attention to detail and the quality of the tool, they are putting something out with "radial play on the blade".


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## Anonymous (19 Mar 2005)

Hi John

That is bad luck indeed. I think it is really the first Festool problem on here - but then you probably use your festool kit a lot more than most.

The end play you mentioned on the new saw (and old saw) is what concerns me here. This sounds like end float in the bearings and should be absolutely zero on any medium priced or more expensive, top quality kit. What kind of play are we talking about? 0.1mm?, 0.5mm?

The reason I ask this is that I had a cheap compound mitre saw years ago that I could never, ever get to cut repeatably and as accurately as I wanted. 
I tried setting it up time and time again and in the end realised that it was down to end float in the motor shaft and bearings. Relaced it with a Rexon with no end float at-all which was spot on every single time.

Maybe this was the cause of your problems?

Hope it all works out OK


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## johnelliott (19 Mar 2005)

Tony, the play is in the same direction as the blade turns in. It's caused by the drive nut (my term) which fits onto the gearbox shaft and has two flats which correspond to the flats on the shaft. The play comes from a slight mismatch between the two sets of flats. There is no side play as far as I can tell. This play was about the same for both the new unit and the 8 month old one, so I don't think it's a factor here.

I think the problem is something that is maybe not detectable when the machine is not running, and I reckon they are going to have to change the bearings just to 'eliminate them from the enquiry'

One of the great things about having bought the new unit is that I can do side by side comparisons when I get the repaired unit back. Being something of a complaints 'artisite' I intend to have the performance of the old unit restored to as-new.


Even if that was not possible (can't see that, though) I have still had my money's worth out of that machine, and if I had to buy a new one every 8 months then that's what I'll do. 
It's a straight forward business decision for me. Plenty of orders on the books at the moment, most of the cabinets I make are different to standard sizes and the Festool is the ideal machine for that. I wouldn't swap it for an Altendorf

John


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## Jake (19 Mar 2005)

> don't you think that the superb cut of the Festool is also partly due to the rubber edge of the guide and the plastic out-rider, which between them effectively create a zero-clearance cut?



Fair comment. My table saw has a zero-clearance insert (it's a festool), so I forgot that most don't.


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## Anonymous (19 Mar 2005)

Im getting mine in a couple of weeks, hope it's ok  


Sorry to hear about yours John

Jase
Coggy


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## Woodythepecker (19 Mar 2005)

I have just spoken to the dealer and he said that as far as he knows all the plunge saws pulsate on the "1" setting, so before i contact Festool themselves can i once again check that none of your saws do this?

Thank you

Woody


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## Aragorn (19 Mar 2005)

Will check tomorrow Woody. I don't mind if you PM me a reminder :wink:


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## Woodythepecker (19 Mar 2005)

Thanks Aragorn, thats nice of you.

I want to find out if this is normal, minor,or fatal as knowing my luck because it is on the lowest speed which inever use i will forget about it until it is to late.

Regards

Woody


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## Chris Knight (20 Mar 2005)

Woody,

My Festool saw (which I have just been using this afternoon) does not seem to pulsate - but a couple of my DW routers do - on the slower/slowest speed settings. I don't think it is necessarily anything to worry about.


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## Woodythepecker (20 Mar 2005)

Chris, thanks very much, i appreciate the reply's from both yourself and Aragorn. Enough said.

I am sure you are right, it is just that the saw is so good any fault no matter how small seems to stick out.

Once again thank you.

Regards

Woody


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## Aragorn (20 Mar 2005)

Hi Woody
Just checked my saw. Didn't notice anything odd at first.
I turned the speed up to 6 and then slowly down to 1. What I noticed was that the rough grating noise that it makes at 6 was randomly pulsing in and out at 1 over the softer purr of the motor.
Might this be the pulsing sound you are refering too?
I wonder what that rough noise is? It certainly doesn't sound "right" yet it seems to make no difference to quality of cut... :? 

Anyway, hope this is of some help


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## Woodythepecker (20 Mar 2005)

Hi Aragorn, 

Thanks very much for checking your saw. 

It certainly sounds like the same noise, but i have no idea what it is or even if it is common to a lot of their saws. It is just a pity that i cannot get any other of the Festool owners to leave their findings. Maybe if you or Chris ask the same question you might get somewhere.

i must agree that what ever the sound is it does not (so far) effect the cut.

I appreciate your help.

Regards

Woody


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## Aragorn (20 Mar 2005)

No worries Woody  



Woodythepecker":38ue9h3c said:


> Maybe if you or Chris ask the same question you might get somewhere.


 :idea: Worth a try :



*HEY*  .
Any Festool saw owners notice the pulsing sound at speed 1?
Any one know why it makes a rough grating noise at higher speeds?


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## Chris Knight (20 Mar 2005)

Aragorn":bmunz0gi said:


> No worries Woody
> 
> 
> 
> ...




DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Woodythepecker (20 Mar 2005)

Talking about acting fast. Thanks to you both.

We have all paid a lot of money for these saws. We have also sung its praises, and still do, but i wouldn't like to ignore a problem if there is one, just because we think so highly of them. 

Regards

Woody


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## Alf (20 Mar 2005)

Woodythepecker":1hlr4f0t said:


> It is just a pity that i cannot get any other of the Festool owners to leave their findings. Maybe if you or Chris ask the same question you might get somewhere.


Do what? :?: Since when do only the "chosen few" get an answer round here? Did I miss the memo? :? Maybe they're just all too busy in the workshop going "that's odd, why's my Festool saw pulsing like that?"? Patience, Woody. Patience. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## froglet (21 Mar 2005)

Woody as requested I got my saw out this evening and you are right, at its lowest speed setting it sounds as if the power is being removed periodically for a fraction of a second. I am glad everyone elses saw is as noisy as mine, it really threw me the first time I switched it on, while it does cut like a £350 saw it sounds like a £35 one.

Graeme


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## Woodythepecker (21 Mar 2005)

Alf, i could name half a dozen Festool owners who have been online while this message was posted, and not in the workshop, but that is neither here nor there, because they have got every right not to answer if they so wish. 

Impatience maybe, but as i have got to use it again tomorrow to earn a crust, and cannot afford to run it into the ground if there is something wrong with it, i was hoping to find out if i had anything to worry about over the weekend. And as Festool was not open, the only way i could think of to do this was to ask other owners if theirs did the same. If a number of them did, then i could have gone to work happy in the knowledge that there was nothing wrong with it.

Finally i asked Aragorn and Chris to do it because i thought that it would get noticed, and i would hopefully get some answers.

I don't see why you have to be funny about it, as i wasn't asking you for anything. :? 

Graeme, another one.Thank you for your reply. I hope that i am not talking to soon but it looks like there is nothing to worry about.

Regards

Woody


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## Waka (21 Mar 2005)

Woodythepecker":1uq12u2y said:


> Alf, i could name half a dozen Festool owners who have been online while this message was posted, and not in the workshop, but that is neither here nor there, because they have got every right not to answer if they so wish.



Woody

I would be only too pleased to test my festool and give you the results, but I'm not home for another 3 weeks.

This thread has got me a little concerned about my own and when I do get home will take a close look at it to see if I get the same problems.


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## Aragorn (21 Mar 2005)

Woody
Looks like a trend is developing here! That's 4 Festool saws (I think :?) that perform like yours (or very similar).
I think this thread has made most of us Festool saw owners a bit anxious. I would expect a tool of this price and quality to last *way *longer than 8 months even with high level everyday use.
My little Bosch drill "retired" after _10 years _of _very_ heavy use. I would expect a similar performance from the Festool, frankly :| 




Woodythepecker":18950crt said:


> Alf... I don't see why you have to be funny about it, as i wasn't asking you for anything. :?



Really, Woody, Alf wasn't being funny about it. There's just no reason to believe that a question from me or Chris will elicit any more response than from you or a complete newbie. Don't we pride ourselves on that here at UKW? Mine (and Chris'?) response were rather tongue-in-cheek, but HEY! let's hope a few more Festool saw owners get a chance to check out their saws in the next few days.
Hopefully Festool themselves will clear it all up for us anyway.


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## Manny (21 Mar 2005)

> I would expect a tool of this price and quality to last way longer than 8 months even with high level everyday use.



My thoughts also.

John


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## tim (21 Mar 2005)

As a potential purchaser of one of these bad boys I was surprised to hear about the noise level, pulsing and play.

Looking forward to hearing what Festool have to say about this.

T


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## Ian Dalziel (21 Mar 2005)

i checked mine at the weekend and yes it does the same at speed one through to 6. 

I also went to the scottish woodwork show where festool were demonstrating and guess what it...theres was the same as mine.. i asked the question and the guy just said 'its the way they all are its something to do with the electronics' not really a suitable answer but it was busy and the guy was under pressure from the crowds. I also asked about the drifting of the blade and he replied he had never heard of this. i left it at this because of the amount of people around
As for johns problems with it moving i can only assume that it has ran a bearing on the motor shaft which has allowed the blade to drift. not what you want to hear after only 8 months of use.
I know you said John that it gets a lot of use but that is why you pay a premium to get something that should last, for me that shouldnt even raise a question..to expect something to underperform after only 8 months use i would well pi**** off. If any of my LN had to warp of of square so badly i too would not be a happy bunny. not because fear or replacing but because i need the tool at the time and running away to dealers etc is time consuming and usually ends up with me arguing with someone. not good for the bp
I am dissapointed to hear than the new one has recut more of the rubber strip. Part of festools selling point is that its range of tools is interchangeable with other tools for its guiderail in its range how offputting would that be if you were a 1mm or so out because they 'werent interchangable'. I will be interested to hear what Festools reply is. there guiderails are expensive enough and handy to be interchangeable but not if there is going to be discrepencies

FWIW.I have had problems with some of my festool stuff but they change it or repair it without any questions,

Ian


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## RogerS (21 Mar 2005)

Regarding the 'pulsing' on low settings....being devils' advocate here...I realise that the sound may be disconcerting but if the cut is still OK then probably that's the way it is. 

Dredging through my memory circuits from my electronic days there are IIRC only a few ways to alter the speed electronically and it depends on the motor design. If the motor is synchronous then its speed could be controlled by the frequency of the driving circuitry. I suspect that in this case it isn't and so the only way to slow it down is to reduce power...either by slicing chunks out of the mains frequency sinewave (like thyristors and dimmer circuits) or by pulsing the motor with complete sinewaves....and relying on the blade and motor rotor to give some degree of flywheel action to smooth out the pulses. It sounds as if this is the case here.

Now waits for Tony to shoot my theory down :wink:


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## Neil (21 Mar 2005)

Hi Woody,

I haven't been able to get to the workshop since you asked about the pulsing, but I'll have a chance tonight and I'll let you know.

Cheers,
Neil


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## Philly (21 Mar 2005)

You lot have got to be worried! :wink: 
Glad I haven't bought one yet........
Stirring it,
Philly :lol:


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## Waka (21 Mar 2005)

Philly

I'm still here lurking and placing orders. Its better doing it from a distance because I don't have to consult with HID's.

Come on take the friday off and join the spenders at Yandles.

Regarding the festool saw, I used it a lot last time home and have to admit that I didn't experience what JE is going through, mind you I haven't run it on any speed but 6 yet, still getting perfect cuts and at right angles.

I will give it the once over when I get back, but hopefully by then the answers to all the question will be available.

I'd still buy another.


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## Woodythepecker (21 Mar 2005)

As i have said Festool claim that "The MMC electronics with 6 regulation and control functions retains a constant preset speed to allow optimum processing of a wide variety of materials"

Now i know nothing about electronics, but would i be right in thinking that this "pulsating" is the saw motor slowing down and speeding up again? If this is the case then the tool is not retaining a constant speed, and if it is not retaining a constant speed then it must be a fault. That is the conclusion i would have come to if it was only my saw, but this is not the case and so far all but one of them have this pulsating noise. So what are the odds that all these have a fault? Is it just a quirk, or is there something wrong?

I am even more confused now. I will let you know what Festool have to say.

Aragorn, Ian, Philly, Waka, Neil, Roger, Tim and John. Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

Regards

Woody


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## Neil (21 Mar 2005)

Philly":qnkxj8hd said:


> Stirring it,
> Philly :lol:


You just watch it, Philly!  That reminds me of something - I was reading the other day about a new strain of wood worm which is partial to cast iron. At the moment, it is confined to the Dorset area - so no worries for most of us :wink: The effects are devastating, I believe - they can reduce a Unisaw-clone to iron filings in a matter of months... :shock:  

Cheers,
Neil


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## Adam (21 Mar 2005)

Right, I think the only replies needed from now on should be on-topic.

Adam <mod hat on>


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## froglet (21 Mar 2005)

Woody I think you might be worrying overmuch about the pulsing. It is probably just because the saw is running without a load. The saw's electronics will be designed to monitor the speed of the blade and apply more power as the blade is slowed by the cut to maintain the blade speed within a narrow range. Equally if the blade is running too fast the electronics will cut power and allow the resistance of the cut to slow the blade back to within the desired speed range. With the blade freewheeling and at the slowest speeds it probably doesn't take much power to get the blade up to speed and if it ends up running a little fast there is nothing to slow it down. Under these conditions the motor controller is probably having to remove power for long enough to bring the speed down that you notice the little pulse in the power.

Of course somebody may come along in a minute who really knows what they are talking about and tell me I am talking rubbish.

Graeme


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## Jake (21 Mar 2005)

I instinctively agree with Froglet, but Tony or someone with the requisite knowledge will hopefully come along. If it wasn't an electronically maintained speed, the motor would increase its speed under no load, and slow down under load. The hunting you seem to be describing sounds as if it is the electronics doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing - albeit that with no load perhaps the feedback can't quite keep up with the very rapid changes in speed which are going to happen with little friction or inertia to counteract the changes in input to the motor from the electronics. It is the speed under load you need to be listening for, I think. 

Having said that, we are all guessing becasue we can't hear the noise you are describing - it could be far worse than I'm imagining!


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2005)

I was going to keep out of this but for what it's worth:

Speed control of a DC motor (I know you plug it into mains AC but it is still a DC motor) is best accomplished by Pulse With Modulation (PWM). This is a method of sending 'packets' of electrical energy to the motor in rapid succession. If the packets are small, then the speed is low and if the packets are large, then the speed is fast.

Typically, we would hold the frequency (repetition rate of the packets) constant and the duty cycle (ratio of on-time to off-time - or the 'width' of the energy packet) adjusted between 0 and 100%. If the chosen frequency is suitable for the motor, then the mechanical inertia (resisitance to a change of speed) in the load AND the electrical inertia (Inductance = resistance to a change in current) of the windings should smooth out the pulses of energy to the motor quite nicely. Result = smooth running and very good speed control with good torque characteristics. If the duty cycle is VERY low, then the pulses of energy might not be fully smoothed out and one might see some 'pulsing' in the motor.

I would have to say that there is not likely to be any speed monitoring on the saw (I do not know this to be true but expect that Festool would see no need for this extra expense) and so it is running 'open loop' Well, any open loop system will be affected by variations in load etc., especially at low duty cycles (speeds) when the power developed within the motor is significantly reduced

*I would not expect to see any pulsing of the saw speed UNLESS the speed was set too low; or the frequency of the PWM signal was set too low for the motor (design error - not likely in Festool kit).
To quantify 'too low' for the speed, I would say that if the saw cuts without stalling at a speed setting of 1, then the duty cycle is not set 'too low' and the saw should not pulse.*

I would feel inclined to email Festool if it were me


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## johnelliott (21 Mar 2005)

Well, quite a lot of stuff going on here. hadn't expected that.

Anyway, tried my saw on the irrelevant and unecessary speed one this am, and it was definitely pulsing. The way I see it, maybe it would behave oddly if I ran it upside down too. So what. Mine is always on speed 6 and there it will stay.

As to the saw only lasting 8 months, well, mine started misbehaving at that age, but perhaps I shouldn't have said that if it only lasted 8 months it was still a good deal (or words to that effect). The reason is that it is guaranteed for 3 years, and whatever the problem is, the retailers and/or Festool themselves are going to have to put it right, so the question of it only lasting 8 months doesn't really arise.

I haven't heard from the repair people yet, if they don't ring today then I will ring them tomorrow, and will, of course, report back here

John


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## froglet (21 Mar 2005)

Tony it is a selling point of the saw that it maintains a constant speed and I don't see how you could achieve this with an open loop system. Surely some sort of feedback is required or else how can the motor controller respond to the changes in load? This isn't however my subject and I am ready to be told I'm talking rubbish again  

Graeme


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2005)

Graeme

I have never considered buying any Festool kit and am unfamiliar with their claims in advertisements.


Your point is quite reasonable Graeme. 
However, I see no logical reason to implement feedback control in a circular saw but Festool may indeed have done so. 

If they have, then there is no reason why the speed should vary at all. if it does, then there is some fault, whether design or manufacture

A circular saw by its very nature is simply a motor with an inertia disc attached and the unloaded speed of this can be very easily controlled using open loop PWM control - DC motors and loads is very well understood. If the motor generates a lot of torque, then this open-loop speed control will translate to steady speed of rotation during light cutting quite nicely


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## Jake (21 Mar 2005)

This is counter-intuitive, for me. Am I imagining that the torque demands of a saw are more than they really are, or underestimating the torque of a dc motor?


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2005)

Jake I do not understand your question.

I stated that IF the motor generates high torque (it will do so regardless of load), then the speed of rotation will not alter significantly under light cuts, surely this is not counter-intuitive?

The torque that a motor can generate depends on it's electrical design and speed of rotation

T= (Z*phi*I)/(2*pi) in Nm

Where
Z = total number of armature conductors (copper wires in rotating section)
phi = the magnetic flux per motor pole (how strong a magnet we have)
I = current flowing in the armature which is speed dependant


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## Jake (21 Mar 2005)

I'm probably just exposing my ignorance, Tony.

I just didn't imagine that a dinky electric motor would have enough torque to maintain a constant speed without more trickery than you are describing. I'm not doubting you, it's just the assumptions in my head that are wrong. So it is counter-intuitive, to me. My intuition being fallible.


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## Neil (21 Mar 2005)

Woody, I have just tried my saw on speed 1 and I have the pulsing too. The pulses have the 'rough gearbox' noise of the normal startup phase, and you can feel the pulses very obviously through the handle. Its fine on 6 though...

Cheers,
Neil


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## Jake (21 Mar 2005)

Has anyone actually cut on speed 1, as festool's claim for their "intelligent MMC electronics" appears to be (judging by the constant repetition of this phrase in net articles) that it "maintains constant speed *under load *"?

Tony, as you no doubt accurately surmised from my post, the maths you edited into your post went over my head. In essence, my mistake is to overestimate the amount of torque necessary for a circular saw compared with what Festool get from their motor. OK. I know my Bosch slows down if I cut too quickly, but that is probably not a fair test, and under those condition so would the Festool, I guess.


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## ColG (21 Mar 2005)

Just to throw another firework into the ring....... Has anybody seen/used/bought one of these? http://www.eurekazone.com


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## johnelliott (21 Mar 2005)

ColG":2qlkbk4b said:


> Just to throw another firework into the ring....... Has anybody seen/used/bought one of these? http://www.eurekazone.com



Having read about this system, I think there is every chance that it is at least as good, if not better than, the Festool system. If they'd been side by side at the place I bought my Festool I might well have bought one instead. But only if the circular saw that I fitted to it was as good as the Festool. I doubt there's anything made anywhere that's as good as the Festool saw in terms of quality of cut.

John


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## Jake (21 Mar 2005)

I had a look in the Festool catalogue this evening, and it doesn't give away too mnay secrets. The "MMC intelligent electronics" keep the speed "constant automatically". There is an automatic speed reduction on idle on most things, including the TS55, jigsaws, and the CS70 with 'MMC' electonics. So without load, speed 1 is not full speed 1. The only other mention of the electronics is on the belt sanders which are said to use "intelligent full-wave electonics". Whatever that may mean.


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2005)

Jake":atswmt0u said:


> Has anyone actually cut on speed 1, as festool's claim for their "intelligent MMC electronics" appears to be (judging by the constant repetition of this phrase in net articles) that it "maintains constant speed *under load *"?.



I see where you are coming from and if Festool make this claim, then the system must use feedback for it to be true under medium to heavy duty cuts


The comment posted by Neil at the top of this page makes me think that the pulsing may be mechanical in nature and related to a gearbox rather than the motor. Having said that, I don't think that I have ever seen a circular saw with a gearbox - they are usually direct drive with the blade mounted on the armature


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## Jake (21 Mar 2005)

I'm not particularly going anywhere, I'm just intrigued and trying to work out more. Is the idle speed reduction thing significant at all, do you think, as a potential reason for the pulsig sound at idle on speed 1


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## Woodythepecker (21 Mar 2005)

> John wrote:
> 
> Anyway, tried my saw on the irrelevant and unecessary speed one this am, and it was definitely pulsing. The way i see it, maybe it would behave oddly if i ran it upside down too. So what. Mine is always on speed 6 and there it will stay.



John, i do not see setting one as being irrelevant or unecessary as there may come a time when i need to cut some other sort of material at that setting. 
As for behaving oddly if you ran it upside down, i would hope not, because this would mean that the owner of this saw who bought a Triton Workcentre 2000 would not be able to use it, which if you look at the price of this excellent saw, would certainly shock him :shock: :shock: 

Like you i think that most of us would keep on setting on 6, but because of the price and the overall excellent quailty of this saw i would not think "So What" if there was a problem with another setting, whether i used it or not.

Put it this way if Festool had not made such a big thing in their advertisments about this no loss of speed, i would probably never have taken any noticed of the pulsating, as the quailty of cut has not been effected. But i did take notice of their advertisment and because i paid over £500 for the tool and all its accessories, i excepted this top of the range tool to last more then 6 weeks before i found what could be a fault.

Anyway i hope that you get your saw back soon and that it is working as perfectly as it did before it went wrong.

Neil thanks very much for your feed back. I have contacted Festool and i will keep you up to date when they reply.

Tony thanks very much for your input, which i was very intrested in.

Colg, i agree with John, that is certainly a nice system. Thanks for the link.

Regards

Woody


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## SquareCircle (22 Mar 2005)

Guess I have to break the lurking habit sometime…………. 
Bought one of these saws at the Feb show. Switched it on in the shed and first thought was blimey, better send it back. Got to be something wrong with it. Easily the worst sounding tool I have (with or without ear defenders on). Seems to warble, pulse and splutter its way along. But it does it cut incredibly clean and true, and effortlessly too. Sometimes I am not sure that the blade is turning (especially since the dust extraction is so darned efficient).
Eventually decided that maybe these guys just didn’t spend as much effort on tuning the sound of their machines (like getting the right exhaust note or making sure that the door shuts with the right thunk). And if the saw does what I want it to do and comes with a three year warranty, then can’t complain. Even though it’s an expensive, feels like the best purchase I have made to date simply because it does what it supposed to do exceptionally well (makes upgrading the TS rather pointless for the time being). 
Pity about the sound and the pulsing but that is really not why I bought it (never read the advertising blurb). I also feel that if the product subsequently turns out to have a design fault, then don’t see how Festool will keep their reputation intact without a product recall or something along those lines.
Just another view.


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## kityuser (22 Mar 2005)

> If they have, then there is no reason why the speed should vary at all.




(trying to remember back to my control lectures at uni), surely this is impossible as it implies that the system has a controller with infinite bandwidth (i.e. enough to respond to the changes in load in zero time so as not to slow the blade down).

surely all systems have a response time?

I agree that it sounds mechanical (or it could possible that at the very low speed you set it to the lag in the gear box sets up some low frequency oscillations in the control electronics, however I`d not expect this from a lump of kit costing this much dosh! :shock: as this would obviously be poor design).

do they claim that the saw will hold a constant speed for any depth of cut up to the maximum capacity?

steve


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## johnelliott (22 Mar 2005)

Tony":1b1fx63m said:


> Having said that, I don't think that I have ever seen a circular saw with a gearbox - they are usually direct drive with the blade mounted on the armature



Actually, I think you will find that every circular saw has a gearbox. Two reasons, one is to keep the speed down to a reasonable level, and the other is to be able to get a decent cut depth without the motor getting in the way

John


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## kityuser (22 Mar 2005)

my skil one does`nt, single speed with the blade mounted straight on the motor spindle.


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## ColG (22 Mar 2005)

If anybody is interested, here's somemore info on the Eurekazone system. I intend to go for it soon as I can't really justify the cost of the Festool. When I do, I will post a mini review.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13318&highlight=eurekazone


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## froglet (22 Mar 2005)

I've just had a look at the parts list and exploded diagram for the saw and the blade does not appear to be mounted directly on the motor spindle. Power is transmitted through a part called the ' gear housing' and the blade is mounted on the 'gear shaft'. Also from inspecting the saw the shaft the blade is mounted on does not appear to be in line with the motor spindle.

Graeme


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

kityuser":2xx403km said:


> > If they have, then there is no reason why the speed should vary at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Steve

Yes of course there is no such thing as an instantaneous response in any system.

However, the reponse time for a high torque motor such as those in a circular saw and the very small inertia of the blade during a light cut will result in speed corrections that are not noticeable to humans - probably adjusting every few millisceconds or so. Even on a hard cut with much increased loading, the fast rate of corrections will ensure the blade remains at constant speed as far as a user is concerned until the force applied by the user requires greater troque than the motor can provide at which point the motor will slow or stall


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## Neil (22 Mar 2005)

Tony et. al. - I've uploaded a scan of the parts list Graeme mentioned so you can have a look if you are interested. Scan is fairly large (130kb)

Neil


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## kityuser (22 Mar 2005)

tony:
I agree completely, sorry for the pickiness, I was just trying to keep mindful that there are "non-technical " (no insult implied) people in here that might take statements (such as your quote) at a face value.

sounds mechanical is there any kind of clutch in these things?


steve


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

No worries Steve :wink: I do get carried away somtimes :? 

Thanks for the scan Neil

It is as I suspected, no gearbox (rules out backlash) and no obvious feedback mechanism to control speed.

I think that they have either used a type of speed control called Armature feedback control or run it 'open-loop' (i.e. no monitoring of the speed) using a PWM drive system.
Armature feedback is notoriously difficult to get accurate speed moitoring from but it is the cheapest way to monitor the speed of the motor. Expect speed control to be around 8%. this type of feedback control may well produice the 'hunbting' reported here.

Open-loop is still most likely for these saws in my opinion although I may have missed something in the drawing. Open-loop speed control using PWM is very good and more than adequate for a circular saw

*Tech bit for the interested - please feel free to ignore:*

A motor and a generator are pretty much the same thing. If you spin a motor armature inside a magneitc field (field windings or permanent magnets) it generates a voltage and current. Motors are not as good as generators at this due to slight constructional differences.
Now, if the rotation of the motor is due to a voltage applied to it, the motor still acts as agenerator and generates it's own voltage opposing the 'driving' voltage (that you applied) - this is called the back-emf (emf, electro motive force, is just another term for voltage). The back-emf causes a current to flow in the armature windings in the _opposite direction _to the current you are putting in to drive the motor.

It is very easy to measure this back-emf generated current and it is pretty much *proportional to speed*. However, due to losses in the system that are varying with speed, the use of back-emf to measure and thus control speed is not too good and the control is usually within about 10% of ideal (best I have seen reported is 8%)
*End of tech bit* hope it wasn't too boring  

Cheers

Tony 

who is waiting for Alf's cutting and funny comment on ' I do get carried away somtimes ' :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Bean (22 Mar 2005)

Yes Tony but I want to know who keeps bringing you back :wink: 


Bean
(Having a bad day)


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## johnelliott (22 Mar 2005)

Tony":bsirwe1q said:


> Thanks for the scan Neil
> 
> It is as I suspected, no gearbox



If you are referring to the Festool saw, it most certainly does have a gearbox. How on earth would the drive get from the motor to the saw blade, even a glance at a picture will show that the motor and the blade are not in line

I had a quick look through the circular saws in the Axminster catalogue, and there too it can be seen that in most of the saws the blade and motor are not in line

OK , they aren't MT75's or even BW65's but if they are encased, and contain gears, then gearboxes they are.

In the illustrated parts list downloadable from the www.festool.co.uk website you can see the 'gear housing'

John


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## johnelliott (22 Mar 2005)

I rang the service people (not having received the promised phone call) and have been told that the saw is being returned to Festo (presumably Minden). Should be back in a small number of days, apparently.

John


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

johnelliott":qrxygqae said:


> Tony":qrxygqae said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the scan Neil
> ...



John. The drawing posted by Neil deos not show a gearbox, thus the saw does not appear to have a gearbox. The sawblade will not neccesarily be central to the housing as the motor may not be centrally mounted in the case
The blade is attached directly to the motor shaft on every saw I have seen.

John. The drawing posted by Neil deos not show a gearbox that I can see


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## Alf (22 Mar 2005)

Tony":q495kip7 said:


> who is waiting for Alf's cutting and funny comment on ' I do get carried away somtimes ' :lol: :lol: :wink:


Usually by men in white coats...

Cheers, Alf

Well I'd hate to disappoint. :roll:


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## Adam (22 Mar 2005)

Tony":11iasoae said:


> John. The drawing posted by Neil deos not show a gearbox,



Top right, part 25, described as gearbox housing on the Festool site? Don't ask me though, I'm not technical, perhaps thats just a german term for a housing around a bearing or something. 

Adam


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## froglet (22 Mar 2005)

Having got the saw out of its box this morning to check this I am pretty sure that the saw blade is not directly mounted on the motor shaft. For this to be the case the whole motor would have to be no more than a couple of centimetres in diameter for it to fit into the motor housing and line up with the centre of the blade. There must be some sort of transmission system in part 25.

Graeme


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## Jake (22 Mar 2005)

From the manual of the ATF55 on the US site.



> Smooth start-up:
> The electronically controlled smooth start-up facility enables
> start-up of the machine without jerks and requires a lower
> start-up current.
> ...



Gears of some sort in this saw (this was the previous version, wasn't it?).



> Speed regulation:
> The speed controller (1.9/2.3) provides infinitely variable
> setting between 2000 and 4800 rpm of the speed of the saw
> blade. This enables you to optimise the cutting speed to suit
> ...


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## tim (22 Mar 2005)

> By this means the saw is rendered
> very quiet during idling, ensuring that the gears and the motor
> are treated with care.



What on earth does this mean? Why would you need a circular saw to idle. Unless the way this saw operates very differently to others, isn't it reasonable to expect the user to turn the saw on just before making the cut and turn it off pretty quickly after. Therefore any idling time is likely to be extremely short. Unless I'm much mistaken that is the work of a marketing bulls**t maestro.

If idling in this context means something else then I'd be pleased to understand what.

If comments above are to go by, then the non idle sound is pretty horrendous. Is the noise any worse than other saws that owners have used?

I have been looking to buy this saw for some time but have no justification right now for upgrading. I have heard only positive comments until this thread. 

Cheers

Tim


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## Woodythepecker (22 Mar 2005)

I emailed Festool yesterday but as yet i have not received a reply.

I will keep you updated.

Regards

Woody


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## Chris Knight (22 Mar 2005)

Ain't this thread something? I reckon it has generated more traffic than almost anything including bevel up versus down, the best way to sharpen and which saw do I need to make dovetails like Rob Cosman! :lol: :lol:


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## Jake (22 Mar 2005)

From festool part list for the TS55EBQ

http://ekat.festool.de/EKAT/jsp/main.js ... deId=child

Part no. 56



> tachometer


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

Adam":31uzrmgg said:


> Top right, part 25, described as gearbox housing on the Festool site? Don't ask me though, I'm not technical, perhaps thats just a german term for a housing around a bearing or something.
> 
> Adam



Although not evident from the drawing in my opinion, it appears that the saw DOES have a gearbox, and so backlash in gears could be the cause of the 'hunting' Woody described at low speeds

Jake, A tachometer might well be fitted to provide cloed-loop speed control. This usually requires a separate winding and brushes on the armature, I can't see these in the drawing that Neil posted, but then I can't see evidence of a gearbox either :? 

The term tachometer might be very losley applied to armature feedback that I described earlier in the thread

Of course, they may be referring to some other sort of pickup or auxiliary winding in the field assembly or even a hall effect device etc.

I have never seen this saw and my posts are based on information gleaned here in this thread in an effort to help


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## Adam (22 Mar 2005)

waterhead37":32kh36rv said:


> Ain't this thread something? I reckon it has generated more traffic than almost anything including bevel up versus down, the best way to sharpen and which saw do I need to make dovetails like Rob Cosman! :lol: :lol:



Very bizarre given very few people own this saw!

Adam


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## Jake (22 Mar 2005)

Tony, have a look at the parts diagram on the link in my post above, it seems rather different. There's a "solenoid" attached to the armature?

I agree re the gears not being obvious, they are there on the list and the diagram, but the way it is exploded makes it entirely unclear how what they do and where.


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

Jake

The link does not work, can you psot again as it tells me the session has timed out?


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## Jake (22 Mar 2005)

Right got it. The upper half of the diagram is the saw and gearbox assembly which sticks on the end of the motor assembly which is the bottom half of the drawing.


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## johnelliott (22 Mar 2005)

waterhead37":2gqriuc5 said:


> Ain't this thread something? I reckon it has generated more traffic than almost anything including bevel up versus down, the best way to sharpen and which saw do I need to make dovetails like Rob Cosman! :lol: :lol:



Agreed, I'm amazed, I expected maybe a page or two at the most

BTW, Chris, does your Festool saw have a gearbox? Mine certainly has, as do most other circular saws that I've seen. In fact, I don't remember ever seeing one that doesn't (doesn't mean there aren't any, of course)

John


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

johnelliott":29bz3yqh said:


> If you are referring to the Festool saw, it most certainly does have a gearbox. How on earth would the drive get from the motor to the saw blade, even a glance at a picture will show that the motor and the blade are not in line
> John



John, after seeing Adam's post, you are *clearly right *and there is a gearbox on the Festool - I could not make out a gearbox in the drawing and have never seen any Festool tools


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## Alf (22 Mar 2005)

Adam":2xqq1fv6 said:


> waterhead37":2xqq1fv6 said:
> 
> 
> > Ain't this thread something? I reckon it has generated more traffic than almost anything including bevel up versus down, the best way to sharpen and which saw do I need to make dovetails like Rob Cosman! :lol: :lol:
> ...


Hmm, wonder how many people are reading it and going "yep, knew it wasn't worth getting a Festool"...? :wink: Which is daft of course, 'cos so far no-one has seems to have actually had any trouble with the cut at low speed as far as I can see. Interesting that this thread has exposed the noise factor though, which I don't recall ever having been mentioned before. Surprising given the general trend of more cost equalling less noise.

Cheers, Alf


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## Jake (22 Mar 2005)

Full link (which still works for me)
http://ekat.festool.de/EKAT/jsp/main.js ... deId=child

I can't work out how I got there now!


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## Jake (22 Mar 2005)

And it has turned into a german language version. Grrr.


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

NO

Can't get it to work. Maybe there is a tracking cookie on your PC that it needs or something like that


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## Jake (22 Mar 2005)

Could be.

Right, found a place that has it.

http://www.festool.ie/

Follow the spare parts link, circular saws, then plunge-cut saw, then the TS55EBQ (second saw on the list)

Cheers

Jake

EDITED to correct the link sequence


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## Anonymous (22 Mar 2005)

johnelliott":s5rvlgvm said:


> In the illustrated parts list downloadable from the www.festool.co.uk website you can see the 'gear housing'
> 
> John



Hi John

Can you post a direct link to it?


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## Alf (22 Mar 2005)

Tony":h4dv2d2j said:


> johnelliott":h4dv2d2j said:
> 
> 
> > In the illustrated parts list downloadable from the www.festool.co.uk website you can see the 'gear housing'
> ...


Products>Spare Parts List>circular saws>plunge cut saws>TS 55 EBQ (I presume?)


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## tim (22 Mar 2005)

Alf":2njop282 said:


> Adam wrote:
> waterhead37 wrote:
> Ain't this thread something? I reckon it has generated more traffic than almost anything including bevel up versus down, the best way to sharpen and which saw do I need to make dovetails like Rob Cosman! Laughing Laughing
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that is that surprising since given the widely held belief that Festool products are peerless, the thread title is the car enthusiast forum equivalent of 'The wheels of my Bentley have fallen off' and then further discussion ensues which also highlights that the exhaust noise is worse than a tractor's.

Cheers

Tim

(who knows how to stretch an analogy to beyond its natural limits)


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## johnelliott (22 Mar 2005)

I wonder if maybe we aren't all expecting too much from these Festools? I know they are a lot more expensive that ordinary circular saws, but that hardly puts them in the perfect bracket.

As a full time woodworker I delve quite deeply into the various alternative means of cutting up sheet materials quickly and cleanly, and my reading has shown me that there ain't nothing, regardless of cost, that is without some kind of drawback.

My view is that despite the noise and despite the strange behaviour of the motor speed control, and despite the problems that I've had with mine there is nothing else like it on the market, and I am glad I bought mine

John


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## Woodythepecker (22 Mar 2005)

> Tim wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure that it is that surprising since given the widely held belief that Festool products are peerless, the thread title is the car enthusiast forum equivalent of "The wheels of my Bentley have fallen off and then further discussion ensues which also highlights that the exhaust noise is worse than a tractor's



Although some people have mentioned the noise (which i personally do not think it is that excessive) you will still find that to a man (or woman) every owner would still buy another one. In fact John went our and purchased a new one at the same time he was handing his faulty one in to be put right under warranty. Now i realise that he needed a saw to carry on working, but i am sure you will agree that this on its own shows how highly Festool owners think of this saw.


Peerless? Maybe. The best circular saw on the market right now? Certainly.

Even though i was panicing about the state of my saw, because if it had a fault i did not want to make it worse, i was still forced to cut 40 8x4 sheets of mdf up yesterday to turn into wainscoting and i have to say it dealt with it with flying colours, which pleased me no end :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Regards

Woody


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## Jake (23 Mar 2005)

Half of it is just a discussion of the workings of the thing.


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## Mike B (23 Mar 2005)

For those Festool "Junkies" that don't already know, there is a Festool Owners Group on Yahoo. 

Unfortunately for us, it is US based (don't look at the prices they "complain" about as it will only make you depressed...) but seems to be a friendly and enthusiastic bunch of serious Festool addicts who are always swapping ideas, doing Festool reviews, hosting live "chats" with Festool US technical staff, and recommending purchases (maybe not such a good idea to mention the niggles with the TS55 as they are all mad keen at the moment to get their hands on - they are still stuck with the ATF55!)

They also have a couple of Festool representatives in the group so maybe if you get no joy from the local dealers over here you could ask them the questions - guess they may not fly over to pick it up but...

Mike


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## johnelliott (24 Mar 2005)

Mike B":cevqpjpj said:


> For those Festool "Junkies" that don't already know, there is a Festool Owners Group on Yahoo.



Have you got a link?


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## Anonymous (24 Mar 2005)

Hi, I am one of those festool freaks from the colonys.
Here is your link. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FestoolOwnersGroup
Hello from the states. Per Swenson


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## johnelliott (24 Mar 2005)

Welcome to the forum Per, and thanks for the link.

John Elliott


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