# Denibbing



## morpheus83uk (26 Sep 2018)

Hello,

I have heard that denibbing is a good thing to do after each coat of finish so I wanted to get some advice on where to get the pads from and what sort of grits? 

I am looking at using a coloured version of this Osmo Wood Wax. 

As I havent done this before I presume that you just run a cloth or pad of sorts over the finish gently to give the silky smooth finish?

Thanks

James


----------



## John15 (26 Sep 2018)

I use 000 grade wire wool.

John


----------



## Steve Maskery (26 Sep 2018)

There are lots of things you can use. 
I use 0000 (four-noughts) wire wool (that's a grade finer than John, above) for applying the wax, but you can use a pan scourer (the green or white matty things, not Brillo pads, they are too coarse).
For denibbing BETWEEN coats you may be better with P320 or P400 Abranet.
I don't know why I am answering a thread on Finishing, my Finishing usually leaves a lot to be desired!


----------



## woodbloke66 (26 Sep 2018)

I use 600g Abranet to de-nib between coats, but it has been known for me to use very worn 320g sandpaper as well - Rob


----------



## sunnybob (27 Sep 2018)

This is a subject that laves me confused (to say the least).
I've tried de nibbing several times, only to find I'm back to bare wood in 2 seconds flat.

I even strike base with 0000 wool. Am I applying too much pressure even at my lowest power setting? or not enough poly in the first place?


----------



## John15 (27 Sep 2018)

Steve Maskery":1t71k4tm said:


> There are lots of things you can use.
> I use 0000 (four-noughts) wire wool (that's a grade finer than John, above) for applying the wax, but you can use a pan scourer (the green or white matty things, not Brillo pads, they are too coarse).
> For denibbing BETWEEN coats you may be better with P320 or P400 Abranet.
> I don't know why I am answering a thread on Finishing, my Finishing usually leaves a lot to be desired!


Correction, I missed a '0' off - I use this grade as Steve with great success.

John


----------



## Mrs C (27 Sep 2018)

I just wipe over Osmo with a very fine foam sanding sponge. ‘Wipe’ is very often all it seems to need to remove the rough feeling.


----------



## AndyT (27 Sep 2018)

sunnybob":1vpgwbj3 said:


> This is a subject that laves me confused (to say the least).
> I've tried de nibbing several times, only to find I'm back to bare wood in 2 seconds flat.
> 
> I even strike base with 0000 wool. Am I applying too much pressure even at my lowest power setting? or not enough poly in the first place?



I think there's a clue in the words "power setting".

De-nibbing needs just light hand pressure, so you only remove the nibs, not all the finish. Feel the rough surface, wipe across with the abrasive, feel the surface again, and if it's smooth, stop.
Not a job for a power tool, in my opinion.


----------



## AES (27 Sep 2018)

I've done very little oil finishing, but with paint and varnish of any sort, on wood or metal, I find 600 grit wet n dry (maybe used wet, maybe dry, depends on the parent material) by hand wrapped around a cork block the way to go. And go VERY gently on any corners/edges, etc.

Use of 600 grit is for the first coat (when fully dry), even finer grit, or very worn 600 grit for the second coat, final coat 4x0 wire wool. Quite difficult to find here, but I find that 3M wet & dry is by far and away the best.

I find it's vital that the paint/varnish is really dry (i.e. hard), and have never used a power tool for this.

Basic purpose is to remove/flatten any minute specs of dust, etc, that were airborne and have settled while the finish was drying, and/or any specs of rubbish that were in the liquid finish as you applied it (though you do strain your material through a coffee filter and old pair of ladies tights before EVERY use, don't you?)!

And not sure about oil, but for paint and varnish, use a tack cloth before every coat/after denibbing (though I have heard that they can leave a residue that affects some finishes, though personally I've never noticed that).

HTH

Edit for P.S. Above I wrote, "Basic purpose is to ..... ". To which I should have added "and in the case of a wooden item, to re-flatten any grain that may have been raised during the application of the paint/varnish".


----------



## John Brown (27 Sep 2018)

Seems to me that using "numbers" like 000, 0000 to indicate the grade is asking for trouble and confusion.


----------



## sunnybob (27 Sep 2018)

AndyT":5qytio8c said:


> sunnybob":5qytio8c said:
> 
> 
> > This is a subject that laves me confused (to say the least).
> ...



Andy, sorry... my use of the word power was misleading, i just meant how much effort i use. Even I'm not as silly as that :shock: #-o 8)


----------



## Nelsun (27 Sep 2018)

One lesson I learned about steel wool is not to use it in conjunction with water based finishes. Any bits that come off and aren't removed will rust into the next coat #-o Thankfully I learned the hard way finishing a scratching post and not on anything more important. And I don't care how many ways there are to clean down the surface after denibbing, little bits get missed or thrown up into the air only to resettle when your back's turned :| 

I like the finest of the paint sanding sponges as they'll handle eased edges, curves and flat surfaces.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (27 Sep 2018)

sunnybob said:


> This is a subject that laves me confused (to say the least).
> I've tried de nibbing several times, only to find I'm back to bare wood in 2 seconds flat.
> 
> I even strike base with 0000 wool. Am I applying too much pressure even at my lowest power setting? or not enough poly in the first place?[/quote
> ...


----------



## AndyT (27 Sep 2018)

Sorry Bob. I know you prefer power tools but shouldn't have jumped to conclusions.


----------



## sunnybob (27 Sep 2018)

if there was a power tool for this job, trust me I would buy it :lol: :lol: =D> =D>


----------



## woodbloke66 (27 Sep 2018)

AndyT":1vaho1k0 said:


> sunnybob":1vaho1k0 said:
> 
> 
> > This is a subject that laves me confused (to say the least).
> ...



Yep, just the very lightest wipe over with worn, very fine paper to dislodge the nibbs. Definitely not a job for any sort of powered sander - Rob


----------



## CHJ (27 Sep 2018)

I use Nyweb for denibbing once the surface has 'cured' prior to additional coats. Either the orange or the white 'no abrasives' versions.
It's no more than a hand wipe over the surface
I find it less prone to leaving abrasive debris behind for tack cloth to remove.

Says he currently none too patiently waiting for oil to dry so that I can get another coat on today.


----------



## custard (27 Sep 2018)

Lots of professional finishers de-nib with just a coarse rag like Hessian, or use a bit of scrunched up brown paper. It really depends of what type of de-nibbing you're doing, if it's specks of dust trapped in Osmo or Danish Oil or a wiping varnish then that's all you need. But if it's removing raised wood fibres from a water based finish or stain then a tiny bit more abrasion is helpful. 

0000 wire wool was the traditional solution, but wire wool is falling out of favour in many workshops. It's flammable and requires special storage in commercial workshops, much of it is now made in the far East and is poor quality and thick with oil, and on tannin rich timbers like Oak any swarf trapped in the grain will eventually turn the timber black. For these reasons artificial wire wool, like the 3M plastic version, is becoming more widely used. Alternatively well worn 240 or 320 grit paper also gets the job done.


----------



## morpheus83uk (30 Sep 2018)

Thank you all for your quick and detailed replies. 

It looks like 0000 steel wool or Abranet fine grain is going to be the best option. I have since read the instruction for the wood wax I will be using which says to have sanded the bare wood to 120 grit for maximum absorption into the wood. Would this apply to each coat as well? In other words use the Abranet 120 grit to gently denib the initial coat and any other coats then apply say a 600 grit after the final coat for the better finish? 

Also I presume I would need to get a sanding block for the Abranet pads too as I currently just have a sander and nothing to do hand sanding with apart from my hands. Does anyone have any recommendations on one which is comfortable to use? I have also been told that soft sanding pads are good as well I presume these are the same as the Abranet pads?

Thanks

James


----------



## AndyT (30 Sep 2018)

If you are going to buy something for hand sanding with Abranet you may as well shell out for their proper hand sanding block. It looks expensive and is dearer than when I bought mine on special at Screwfix, but it gives you a slightly cushioned velcro pad sized to the sheets (choice of two sizes) and a connection for a vacuum cleaner hose. Used with a vac, it gives totally dust free, efficient hand sanding. Practical for the whole job, not just for knocking back the finish.


----------



## sunnybob (30 Sep 2018)

Soft sanding pads are only good for curved surfaces.
Use one on a flat piece of wood and you will round the edges over without even realising it.


----------



## morpheus83uk (30 Sep 2018)

Thank you it sounds like I need a bit of both them as its a curved table which I am doing so I would need the Abranet pads and some soft sanding pads for the curves. 

What pads would I need for the denibbing would it be the 120 for each coat and a 600 for the final? or 600 throughout?

Thank You.

James


----------



## Phil Pascoe (30 Sep 2018)

sunnybob":3lrm6v4o said:


> Soft sanding pads are only good for curved surfaces.
> Use one on a flat piece of wood and you will round the edges over without even realising it.



We're talking of wiping it over not trying to wear holes in it.


----------



## AES (30 Sep 2018)

+1 for Andy T's hand Abranet pad. NOT cheap, but excellent, and just as he says, with a vac on the back end of it (you'll need an adaptor), the nearest thing to dust-free sanding that I've ever seen.

As sunnybob says, de-nibbing involves only a VERY gentle rub - hand pressure VERY light.

I repeat, I have very little experience of oil and wax finishes though.


----------



## morpheus83uk (1 Oct 2018)

Yes so just hand sand with the Abranet pads and some soft sanding pads. 

What pads would I need for the denibbing would it be the 120 for each coat and a 600 for the final? or 600 throughout? 

Thanks

James


----------



## AES (1 Oct 2018)

I guess it depends on the job and the finish, but IMO anyway, 120 would be much too coarse. For de-nibbing, I'd be starting at 600 and going even finer (next go a piece of well-used 60, last one, probably 1000, or 4x0 wire wool). It's all about FINE and GENTLY (well that's my experience anyway). NO elbow grease needed here!


----------



## Nico Adie (1 Oct 2018)

I, of course, bow to the massively superior experience of other members here, but I've had reasonable success using a 240 grit Garryflex block for denibbing between coats of danish oil on both teak (refinishing mid-century coffee tables) and American black walnut. Very gentle.


----------



## woodbloke66 (1 Oct 2018)

AES":3282ldzb said:


> I guess it depends on the job and the finish, but IMO anyway, 120 would be much too coarse. For de-nibbing, I'd be starting at 600 and going even finer (next go a piece of well-used 60, last one, probably 1000, or 4x0 wire wool). It's all about FINE and GENTLY (well that's my experience anyway). NO elbow grease needed here!


Agreed, 120g is way too aggressive. I have a special little box just for 600g Abranet that I use solely for de-nibbing and the more each piece is used, the better it becomes. All that's needed is a swift, very light wipe of abrasive (wrapped round a cork block if needed) to take off any dust particles from the finish. Then feel it with your finger tips to see if its smooth, vacuum off any dust and then apply the next coat. A decent sized desk top should take no longer than 5-7 seconds to de-nib; if it takes longer than that you're giving it too much grief! - Rob


----------



## morpheus83uk (1 Oct 2018)

Brilliant. So by the sounds of it I wouldn't need the block then just a very gentle wipe over with the Abranet by hand and its done. I presume I could use them on the curves too or would I still need the soft sanding pads?

Sorry for all the questions I just want to get it straight in my head before I start purchasing things unnecessarily. 

Thanks

James


----------



## AES (1 Oct 2018)

IMO a soft-ish pad (a piece to foam for example) is good for going around curves. Although LITTLE pressure is required, using either a flat block (cork is ideal) or your hand will most likely apply a little more pressure in one part of a curved surface than the rest of the curve. As already said, since we're after MINIMUM pressure here (we do NOT want to get down into the finish itself), it's better to use something curved (like a soft pad) on curved surfaces than either your hand or a flat rigid block.


----------



## morpheus83uk (1 Oct 2018)

Oh right so are the Abranet pads not very flexible or soft?


----------



## Phil Pascoe (1 Oct 2018)

morpheus83uk":2dm98gby said:


> Brilliant. So by the sounds of it I wouldn't need the block then just a very gentle wipe over with the Abranet by hand and its done. I presume I could use them on the curves too or would I still need the soft sanding pads?
> James


It's easier to use a block of some sort as you get better contact on flat surfaces (my blocks are bits of carpet tile stuck to ply offcuts). All you are trying to do is remove the tiniest bits of dirt and dust - if it takes more than a quick wipe, you've done something wrong - either you've not done your preparation properly or you've polished in a dusty atmosphere (made worse if the polish is slow drying as it'll pick up even more). I suspect you're trying to get rid of something that shouldn't have been there in the first place.  If your polish (of whatever description) has raised the grain you should have dealt with that before you got to the denibbing stage - a sanding sealer, a very dilute first coat of polish or even a wipe over with (hot) water will raise the grain for sanding before starting to polish.


----------



## morpheus83uk (2 Oct 2018)

Thanks so something like this for the Abranet pads: 

https://www.axminster.co.uk/single-side ... 5mm-502671

When you say a foam pad coulkd you point me to an example so I purchase the correct thing? 

Thanks


----------



## AES (2 Oct 2018)

I've not used the one you linked to, sorry. I use either a very normal cork block (found in the decorators section of any DIY shed - but I think I also saw one on the Axi page you linked to), or this:







Either will be fine for flat and SLIGHTLY curved surfaces, but the advantage of the above item (pictured) is that, of course, that you can use it with the vac (with a suitable adaptor), so it's ideal for all hand sanding, not just de-nibbing. (Oh, and it fits the Abranet sheets in whatever grade you have too).

But NEITHER the above are particularly good for really curved surface, being flat and in effect rigid (apart from the slightly rubbery thin under surface of the 2nd item). Anything flat/rigid will tend to leave flat spots or at least, areas where you've accidently rubbed through the finish down to the parent material. I guess any foam pad would do, provided it's not too soft & squishy. I use a piece of old rubberised horse hair that was originally used for freighting delicate instruments - i.e. pretty stiff, NOT like, say, a bath sponge, but it's also flexible, and will conform to any shape. But anything that fits the above description will work fine, it's just got to follow the curve evenly.

Sorry to repeat myself, but remember, this is NOT sanding we're talking about, this is de-nibbing so virtually NIL pressure is needed. Someone has already said above that a piece of coarse cloth will do. I've never tried that myself, but it sounds to me that it would work fine for de-nibbing curves, because it willnaturally follow the curves without needing much pressure on it.

Don't sweat this too much, it's not rocket science - it's just a gentle wipe over with a fine abrasive, really!


----------



## morpheus83uk (3 Oct 2018)

Thank you. 

I havent ever come across a coarse cloth before if you could point me in the direction of one I would be grateful.

Thanks

James


----------



## AES (3 Oct 2018)

James, I'm sorry, as said before I have never used a coarse cloth before. Someone else in the thread above said that he'd used one, and I simply said that it sounds to me like that should work.

I think any cloth which is not smooth might be called coarse (!!!!) - I think that with all respect due to a beginner, you really ARE over-thinking this.

When you paint, or wax, or varnish something, you tend to get minute particles left behind- i.e. the surface is not dead smooth like a piece of glass. All you're trying to do is (GENTLY - that word again) remove that slight roughness. As I already said in a previous post in this thread, I have little experience of wax finishes on wood, but quite a lot of experience of both paint and varnish on both wood and on metal. To remove those small imperfections and bring the surface nearer to glass-like, you can use almost anything that's not fine and which will follow contours if the job's not flat.

I don't know about yours, but in my case I reckon a pair of my old underpants would do fine!

I suggest you now just go and have a go at whatever it is you're trying to finish. Unless you go really mad, about the worst that can happen if you've followed all the advice above is that you've just rubbed too hard and rubbed away parts of the first coat of whatever it is you're applying. No big deal, just start again. Another lesson learned.


----------

