# Spiers Improved Mitre Plane - questions



## Aled Dafis (5 May 2008)

I was at a family gathering yesterday, and after a good few hours at the pub, we retired to my wife's uncle's house for a few nibbles and a cup of tea - which soon turned into more wine  

While we were there, my wife's uncle told me he had been given some old tools, and took me into the garage to show off his battered old chisels, and a few planes, much to my surprise he pulled out this little beauty from the bottom of a cardboard box :shock: :shock: 







To cut a long story short, he said that I could have the plane if I bought him back a standard plane that he could use to adjust the odd door now and again.:roll: :roll:

As you can see from these pictures, theres a little surface rust all over the plane and iron, so what's the best way of dealing with it? How about lapping on wet & dry, or is that going to damage it forever - I have quite a large surface table at school that I could use.

The infill looks in good shape, so that can be left alone. How do I protect this when cleaning up the metalwork?





















Can anyone tell me more about the plane, I gather from my Murlands tool value guide, that Spiers traded between around 1840 and 1936. I also found a picture of a similar plane on the web that pointed towards 1850-1860, is this accurate?

Not that I'm that concerned about the actual value as I fully intend to hang on to this plane, but my tool value guide points to £400 to £800 :shock: is this also in the right ball park?

Any info would be much appreciated, especially as regards to renovating.

Thanks in advance

Aled


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## Harbo (5 May 2008)

Cannot offer you any more advice other than what you have already found out about the type and values.

If the rust is only surface I would clean it off with wire wool or some fine wet & dry with a bit of paraffin. You could protect the wooden bits with some masking tape. The sole can be lapped on wet & dry on a surface plate.
Then give it all a wax with some paste wax or camellia oil for protection.

You can be a bit more hard on the iron and use a chemical rust remover containing phosphoric acid (jenolite) before polishing off and regrinding the bevel. I would not polish the brass - clean it carefully but leave the patina.

Rod


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## mr (6 May 2008)

Aled - nice looking plane.  As to value there is one here 

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2232297/ 

value estimated at £5 -600 and another here 


http://www.tooljunkie.com/antiques.asp value estimated at $4000.00 

I think if I haven't gone completely mad and am looking at something totally other than what you have there then I would be tempted to get it valued properly and return it to the wifes uncle if it really does turn out to have a frightening cash value. 

Cheers Mike[/u]


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## Joel Moskowitz (6 May 2008)

It's worth a good chunk.
since you are in the UK I would chat with DAvid STanley before doing anything. You don't want to do any work that would damamge the original finish, widen the mouth, and unnecessarily remove patina in the process of getting rid of the rust.
Incidentally the reason these planes are rare and valuable is that not a lot bought them - they are not nearly as useful as a good smoother - or even a box mitre plane for shooting.

I need to change my original idea about the date. I assumed it was 20th century because of the lever cap screw but the mark is 19th century. and there is another screw sided mitre plane with the same knob. So that puts it into the last 1/4 of the 19th century I would think. In any case it's worth a good bit. I sold and earlier one a few years ago for about $2k


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## wayne (6 May 2008)

It looks to me like it has seen little if any serious use. Very nice find indeed! Won't find any treasures like that here...that's for sure.

Joel is right about consulting David Stanley. I saw a Norris jointer go for an absolutely obscene price in one of his auction catalogues. It was a late entry to the auction, and was in similar untidy, slightly rusty condition. Collectors do love seeing "fresh", untouched finds. -Wayne


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## Harbo (6 May 2008)

Do not wish to hijack the thread but can any of you experts date this more common and garden small coffin smoother please?:






Thanks Rod


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## toolsntat (6 May 2008)

Very nice Aled   
My method would be 
1 Blunt chisel to loose the dusty rust
2 Autosolve with a toothbrush on the metal then clean of with fine wire wool while still wet (Not the brass)
3 Give it all a good rub with an oily dirty rag and enjoy :wink: :wink: 




wayne":359agm6q said:


> It was a late entry to the auction, and was in similar untidy, slightly rusty condition. Collectors do love seeing "fresh", untouched finds. -Wayne



If it was the one I saw in the flesh, "slightly rusty" would be a real understatement :shock: :shock: and the buyer would have got the shock of their life I`m sure :roll: Was a real shame   
Personally untouched is worth more than restored but then we all have our own preference's


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## Scrit (6 May 2008)

Harbo":r0xnv0a7 said:


> Do not wish to hijack the thread but can any of you experts date this more common and garden small coffin smoother please?:


Stuart Spiers is known to have made planes from about 1840 onwards, although earlier planes were screwed together rather than rivetted. Rivetting is believed to have come in some time in the 1850s (making the mitre plane a later one). Sometime around 1870 Spiers gave up his trade as a cabinetmaker and went over to making planes full time. The business continued in one form or another until just before WWII (1936 or 1937) and it is believed that both styples of plane were available right up to the end, so dating is a bit of a pickle. The plane you have is a No.6 steel smoothing plane.

Scrit


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## George_N (6 May 2008)

Hi Scrit, not heard from you on here for a while, welcome back!


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## Smudger (6 May 2008)

Yes, nice to hear that authoritative voice.


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## Aled Dafis (6 May 2008)

Thanks for your replies. 

Following your advice I think that I'll start off by contacting David Stanley to see whether cleaning the plane would be detrimental, and also what approach I should take in cleaning / restoring it.

The values that you guys talk about has made me a little more cautious in my approach - I was ready to get the wet and dry out and give it a good going over :roll: 

Keep the comments / advice coming please.

Cheers
Aled

P.S. Nice to have you back on board Scrit


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## Harbo (6 May 2008)

Thanks Scrit - nice to hear from you.

Has anybody written up the history of Spiers planes - must be a lot of interest out there for one?

Rod


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## toolsntat (6 May 2008)

Harbo":1pm235ie said:


> Has anybody written up the history of Spiers planes - must be a lot of interest out there for one?
> 
> Rod


Here..........
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:le ... cd=4&gl=uk
Also........
http://www.mjdtools.com/books/127851.htm


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## George_N (7 May 2008)

Aled Dafis":1dnyujlu said:


> To cut a long story short, he said that I could have the plane if I bought him back a standard plane that he could use to adjust the odd door now and again.
> 
> Aled



One of theseshould be within your budget now for trimming doors and cleaning off old paint etc. to keep uncle happy :wink: :wink:


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## Benchwayze (7 May 2008)

toolsntat":3arwks2k said:


> Harbo":3arwks2k said:
> 
> 
> > Has anybody written up the history of Spiers planes - must be a lot of interest out there for one?
> ...



Garrett Hack mentions Spiers as being one of the finest plane-makers of his day. Apprently they were the 'Holteys' of their time. Certainly as good as, if not so 'fashionable' as Norris. 

So any Spiers plane would be a 'keep' for me.. 

John


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## Benchwayze (7 May 2008)

Aled Dafis":24xiv8n5 said:


> I was at a family gathering yesterday, and after a good few hours at the pub, we retired to my wife's uncle's house for a few nibbles and a cup of tea - which soon turned into more wine
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No contest..
Good swap! 

Looks like a fine wire-wool and paste-wax job on the body of the plane. 
Mabe cover the infill with masking tape? I doubt that would damage the timber. I think if you work slow and clean, there shouldn't be a problem tho'. I daresay that plane has had a fair bit of oil of one sort or another on the wooden infill in its time. 

John


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## Scrit (7 May 2008)

Benchwayze":19prc74j said:


> Garrett Hack mentions Spiers as being one of the finest plane-makers of his day. Apprently they were the 'Holteys' of their time. Certainly as good as, if not so 'fashionable' as Norris.


Perhaps it is truer to say that Norris started out as a later copyist of the already established Spiers planes and then improved on the design. Don't forget that other planemakers also made this style of infill plane, most notably Alex. mathieson of Glasgow, Edward Preston of Birmingham, William Marples of Sheffield and Slater of Clarkenwell. The major manufacturers (Spiers and Norris) are known to have made planes for others including Mathieson (both in all probability) and Musgrave of Lincoln (Norris) and a number of foundries produced the brass/naval bronze fittings for craftsmen to make their own planes

Scrit


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## Benchwayze (7 May 2008)

Well Scrit, 

I give in to your superior knowledge on this one. I have heard of those gentlemen of course. My biggest problem with the Spiers smoother, is that I can't even get just three fingers through the tote without feeling 'cramped'. So I don't use mine very often. But it takes a lovely shaving I have to say! The front 'button' is missing a bit of timber, but of course that doesn't affect the operation of the plane. So it stays in my 'arsenal'..


Regards
John.


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## matthewwh (8 May 2008)

Hi Aled,

You might be interested in a new product from the makers of Toolguard VCI pots and MetalGuard Ultra. It is called 'Restore' and it's a very gentle water based, fully biodegradable, non toxic yet highly effective alternative to phosphoric acid baths for removing rust.

Just mix with water (19:1 ratio, so a 500ml bottle makes 10 litres), pop the tools in, give them a few hours to soak, once the rust has melted you just rinse the surface with clean water and wipe off any residue. 

The product won't affect good metal, non ferrous metal, plastics, rubber etc in the slightest, although because it is largely water, you would need to be careful not to submerge your wooden infill. It also passivates the surfaces that the rust has been removed from so there is no risk of flash rusting as you get with phosphoric. A quick wipe over with camellia oil or MetalGuard Ultra afterwards will give longer lasting protection.

Because it's fully biodegradable and non toxic, once you have re-used it a few times, you can just pour it down the drain. It should be available within the next week or so from WH at £24.95 for a 500ml bottle.


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## Smudger (8 May 2008)

That was really interesting until the last line!


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## Benchwayze (8 May 2008)

Know exactly what you mean Smudger. 

Expensive at a quarter of the price! 

 

John


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## woodbloke (8 May 2008)

mathewww wrote:


> £24.95 for a 500ml bottle


That's twice the price :shock: of a half-respectable bottle of malt...might be cheaper to de-rust planes using whiskey :lol: - Rob


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## matthewwh (8 May 2008)

Don't forget that one bottle makes ten litres at usable strength guys. 

That makes it cheaper than beer! - and I've never seen beer that can do this:

















What's more, you can re-use it several times over; so if he treated each face in turn in a shallow tray to avoid wetting the infill, Aled's plane, including the iron, would probably need about £2.50's worth.


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## Benchwayze (8 May 2008)

You haven't seen the stuff I drink!

Coca-Cola is supposed to work tho!

John ccasion5:


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## Benchwayze (8 May 2008)

matthewwh":2lvvxbm4 said:


> Don't forget that one bottle makes ten litres at usable strength guys.



Hey Matthew,

Guys? What about us 'grils'!  

Thanks for the link Matthew. 
But it's not often I get tools this bad...! It's always there 'Justin Case'.

I've run out od Meths. Can you drink Camelia Oil? 
 
Regards
John


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## Jake (8 May 2008)

How different is it, from, say, this?

edit: no dilution with that one, OK.


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## Benchwayze (8 May 2008)

Benchwayze":3o5u0md0 said:


> matthewwh":3o5u0md0 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't forget that one bottle makes ten litres at usable strength guys.
> ...


I've run out of Meths. Can you drink Camelia Oil? 
 
Regards
John


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## Jake (8 May 2008)

Looking at similar solutions, most of them appear to be based on 'chelating agents' - which include EDTA (whatever that is) acetic acid (vinegar) and no less than an old friend on these forums - citric acid.


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## frugal (8 May 2008)

Jake":3m7tn9te said:


> Looking at similar solutions, most of them appear to be based on 'chelating agents' - which include EDTA (whatever that is) acetic acid (vinegar) and no less than an old friend on these forums - citric acid.



It looks like a synthetic chelating agent that has some environmental issues. 

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/edta/edtah.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDTA


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## Jake (8 May 2008)

Intersting, I was too lazy to look - can't be EDTA as that isn't biodegradable. They mention a bio-degradable substitute/variant - EDDS, so it could be something like that.

Any idea what's in it, Matthew? How is it better than citric acid?


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## Benchwayze (9 May 2008)

George_N":ywcjvzzx said:


> One of theseshould be within your budget now for trimming doors and cleaning off old paint etc. to keep uncle happy :wink: :wink:



Thanks for the link George. 

I think I will dive in there and keep myself happy! 

Regards
John


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## matthewwh (9 May 2008)

Jake":xojtx00o said:


> Any idea what's in it, Matthew? How is it better than citric acid?



Hi Jake,

I'm afraid I don't know what the formulation is, but I do know that it is water based rather than acid based. Acids will eat away at everything, rust, good metal, non ferrous metal etc. The rust is easier for the acid to digest so it tends to get eaten away more rapidly, but you will always lose a little bit of everything else too.

Restore on the other hand, singles out the rust and leaves everything else unharmed, (except for things that are normally damaged by water - like wooden infills for example). 

Once the rust is gone, restore leaves the formerly rusted surface passivated, so you won't find that your freshly de-rusted object has turned bright orange with new "flash rust" within a few hours of coming out of the bath. The casting in the third picture was treated several weeks ago and is still as clean as a whistle. It's worth noting though, that it doesn't passivate any non-corroded surfaces.


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## lurker (9 May 2008)

This has set me thinking :-k 

I bought some Iron Sequestrinate the other day to feed a poorly Azalia.

I think I'll experiment with a pack ( 5 packs for £2.50 from Wilkinsons) on some rusty nails. 

Any Chemist care to comment?


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## matthewwh (14 May 2008)

Update.

I've had a chat with Paul and it turns out that it's his Dad, a retired Professor of organic chemistry and a lecturer at Cambridge University that came up with the formulation. Paul takes care of how to turn it from a formula into a producable product and then runs the business.

I also have a price comparison which might interest you, between Restore and other products that do a similar job, including the acid based ones that will eat away at the good metal too.

These are all based on the largest volume packages (the best rate per litre) and do not include shipping. Bearing in mind that restore is highly concetrated, so it costs much less to post than those sold at finished strength too.

Restore: £2.48/litre

POR15Metalready: £6.75/litre 

RustAway: £8.00/litre 

Eastwood: £8.47/litre

Metalblack: £11.99/litre 

We received the first shipment today and have listed it on the site here.

Unsurprisingly, Paul is keeping his cards very close to his chest about how it works, although he did say that it is just about Ph neutral and doesn't contain any citric or phosphoric acids. 

Any results from the plant food experiment yet or shouldn't I ask?


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## Jake (15 May 2008)

Sounds like one of the more sophisticated chelating agents then.

I have to say that talking of 'acid attacking everything' is a bit OTT, given the acids and concentrations involved.


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## mahking51 (15 May 2008)

Hi matthewwh,

Hope this is not too controversial but can you possibly tell me why the VPI pots are so unbelievably expensive? Three minute aluminium tins, must cost pennies only when bought by the thousand; three pieces of sponge, again fractions of a penny; labels, lets be generous at 5p each; The magic ingredient lets say 1ml per pot, (hugely generous I would think).
Thats 3ml per three pack which is way over £4 per ml; £4000 per litre!
Lets say 200% markup which is real mask & pistols territory, but still around £1000 per litre cost.

Add in packing overhead shipping etc etc and my logic still tells me this stuff is waaaaaaay too dear.

BTW I have bought a fair bit of it over the years because it is good, but I hate the smell of a rip off and wonder how much more would sell if it was half the price; a lot more than twice as much I'll bet!

Cheers,
martin


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## matthewwh (15 May 2008)

Hi Martin,

It's not the physical cost of producing the products that costs the money. Like the drugs industry it's about repaying the money borrowed for the development of the magic ingredient and then financing development of the next generation of magic ingredients. 

There's also the relative benefit to the consumer of protecting potentially hundreds of pounds worth of kit. If you asked an insurance company to provide cover against corrosion for a cupboard full of Clifton's and Lie-Nielsens in a damp garage I suspect the premiums would cost more thanthe price of a couple of VCI pots. When you get into other applications for these products like museums protecting priceless suits of armour this is even more true.

Low levels of competition within the industry mean that they could charge as much as the next manufacturer, but as you can see from the price comparison above, Shield Technology haven't priced Restore at £6.74/litre which would have been the profit maximising position (as high as possible whilst still remaining the consumer's best option). Instead they have come in at well below half that and left the rest in the consumer's pocket.

Sorry if this is a bit of an economisty answer but it's not quite as simple as just breaking down the costs of the ingredients and adding a bit of margin.

Jake,

Maybe a bad choice of words, but the point is that it is discriminate in only removing the rust as opposed to being indiscriminately corrosive to the entire object.


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## Mike Hancock (18 May 2008)

Please do not touch this plane - I would agreed with others and let David Stanley handle any valuation or sale for you, you may have a valuable plane that you can easily make less appealing by cleaning incorrectly..A bit of WD40 just to stop any worsening but from what I can see the rusting is superficial.Look after this - a plane making genius made it!


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## Aled Dafis (18 May 2008)

A quick update.

I have contacted David Stanley, and they said that I'd be best advised to just clean up the existing rust with fine wire wool and oil, i.e. the bare minimum of cleaning and not to introduce any scratches on the body.

They also said that their auction valuation for the plane would be in the region of £800 - £1000.


Mathew

That Restore stuff looks brilliant, but I'm a bit too much of a chicken to try it out on this plane. 


Mike

Thanks for your kind coments, the plane sure looks and feels like it was put together by a master craftsman.


I'll update again as soon as I've made some progress in cleaning it up

Cheers

Aled


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## ivan (26 May 2008)

It's not actually true that "all acids dissolve everything". Whilst common acids will dissolve some steel an well as the rust, this is not true of phosphoric acid. the phosphate of iron is insoluble, so a coating builds up on the surface of clean steel* which eventually stops further action. Rust which is porous continues to dissolve away, but may reveal quite deep pits, which might have looked less obvious if just oiled and wire wooled.

Coke contains dilute phosphoric acid (read label). Jenolite also, but it certainly used to be mixed with hydrochloric acid, so my first paragraph is probably not valid for that product. Phosphoric acid is fairly harmless, and can be obtained from lab chemical suppliers (see yellow pages) and 2.5l of syrupy phosphoric acid (what cancentrated is called) cost about the same as a couple of big bottles of Jenolite when I bought last.

* car bodies and other items are 'phosphated' before painting, to deter rust and improve paint/substrate bonding.


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