# bronze infill planes



## head clansman (7 Feb 2009)

Hi all

my workshop exterior is now completed , soon to start fitting machinery to the interior though out the coming year, later into the year i want to start making benches and wall hung tool cabinets , i have a near full set of stanley planes from no 7 - no 3 

I really fancy making a set of bronze infill styled planes for working hard wood , infill plane have a higher set frog nearer to 50 degrees better for planing hard woods i have managed to get several design of various plan designs & was wondering does anyone know where to buy the the bronze infill body casts from or even the complete kit so i can manufacture the whole thing myself . I have tried a place in bristol he promised twice to send me details and never and a guy in devon who never replied and the st james company in america when there catalogue arrive soaking wet and ripped to sheds never bother ed to send another so i need help .

Any body here made there own planes before , where did you get all the parts from ? Any pointers would be a help thanks in advance . hc


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## Harbo (7 Feb 2009)

Bristol Designs used to sell them, but it looks like you tried them?

I inquired a couple of years ago - they did have a few castings but no partially machined ones - their machinist had retired. I had no facilities to mill the bits so gave up on it.
I think Philly has made one of theirs?
Jim Kingshott's book has some designs - he had his bodies cast in a foundary. His book also covers making dovetailed types.

Rod


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## Pete W (8 Feb 2009)

Since my 'To do' list is down to the last few hundred items, I've been pondering an infill plane project . 

Came across Gerd Fritsche's site the other day. He does kits as well as completed planes, and they look very good (but I stress I have no direct experience of the man or his planes).


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## Chris Knight (8 Feb 2009)

Here's one plane maker that has a good rep http://www.breseplane.com/Plane_Kits.html

and here is one of the world's finest makers putting one of Ron's kits together

http://oudluthier.blogspot.com/


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## Waka (8 Feb 2009)

waterhead37":pg8nmnsa said:


> Here's one plane maker that has a good rep http://www.breseplane.com/Plane_Kits.html
> 
> and here is one of the world's finest makers putting one of Ron's kits together
> 
> http://oudluthier.blogspot.com/



Chris

Some nice looking chisel's there, do you have any?


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## Aled Dafis (8 Feb 2009)

Clansman

I'm currently working on my third infill plane, and they've all been of the dovetailed variety, which to me is the most traditional method of assembling, and also the most accessible to hobby wood/metalworkers. Having said that, having access to a milling machine does speed things up a fair bit. :wink: 

My first plane was based on Karl Holtey's 11-SA, and I wrote about it here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25988&highlight=11sa

My second was a small shouldeer plane based on one by Konrad Sauer, pics can be found in the recent Secret Santa thread, http://philsville.blogspot.com/search?q=aled+dafis

My third, will be the same as the one I gave to Philly, but this time I'm keeping it! - Philly came really close to recieving just a box of shavings  I'm getting pretty close to completing it, so I'll post a step by step thread either towards the end of this week, or sometime next week - half term, yipee. :lol: :lol: 

If anybody has the contact details of Bristol Designs, can you please forward them to me, as I'd be quite interested in the castings if they still have some.

Cheers

Aled


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## Philly (8 Feb 2009)

HC
I bought some of Bristol Designs castings. They are indeed rough - if you don't have access to metalworking machinery then you need to look elsewhere.
Ron Brese supplies his planes in kit form - an excellent way to proceed! Ron is a true Gent and the prices are pretty good (£/$ excepted!). I'm actually building Ron a plane at the moment...... :roll: 

Hope this helps
Philly


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## head clansman (8 Feb 2009)

Hi guys 

thanks for your swift responses, there some really nice links here thank you so much , that will point me in the right direction some really nice chisel and marking knifes hmm dribbling at the mouth now , keep the links coming and the pics as well please, all interesting stuff.hc


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## Philly (8 Feb 2009)

HC
Remembered I took some photo's of the construction of my Thumb PLane. Here's the link...

http://www.philsville.co.uk/thumbplane1.htm

There's some of the Bristol Design castings in the first pic.

Aled - the address is

Bristol Design (Tools) Ltd
14 Perry Road
Bristol

BS1 5BG 

tel no: 01179291740

Cheers
Philly


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## head clansman (8 Feb 2009)

Hi philly 

thanks for that, see what you mean about rough castings , hmm a nice little milling machine would be a god send making one of these planes , a future investment without a doubts a future post for one later on . stick to a kit from for now .hc


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## Dave D (8 Feb 2009)

The above plane is obviously not a bronze infill but the technique I used to make it might be easier for any planemaker who, like me is a little wary of trying the dovetail method.

It should be obvious from the photo that I have been smitten by Karl Holtey's masterpieces. 
His website showed the sole of his No 98 plane CNC machined to have built in rivets so that the sides can be rivetted in place.

Now I do have a lathe but no milling machine, let alone a CNC one so an alternative method was needed.

I did not take any photos during the process but here is the trick as well as I can remember it.

1. Clamp the sides and sole together and drill through 2BA tapping size.
2 Remove clamps and tap the holes in the soles.
3. Enlarge the side holes with a taper reamer until 5mm diameter at the outside.
4. Fasten the sides and sole together using 2BA socket head cap screws.
5. Make a 2BA thread on the end of a 5mm rod with a die.
6. Remove one capscrew and screw in the rod as tight as possible. I used a purpose built clamp on the rod to exert the maximum torque I could manage but on reflection the rivetting process could even pull tight a loose screw.
7. Saw off the rod a little proud of the side and hammer the rivet to fill up the taper hole.
8. Repeat until all the capscrews have been replaced.

I used stainless steel throughout which was a nightmare to cut, machine, rivet and polish and this is why I used a taper reamer rather than a countersink. I did not think that ss would deform easily enough to fill a countersink.

Of course the idea could be used with any materials. Brass or bronze should easily deform into a countersink hole.

I have since noticed that on his latest plane Karl Holtey is using screw in rivets so I have confidence that my plane won't fall apart.

If I were to make another plane, which I probably will because I am daft enough, I would consider a gauge plate sole (nice and flat from the start) and either gauge plate sides with steel rivets or bronze sides with bronze rivets to make them disappear.

If anyone is tempted to have a go with this method then I would love to hear about it so that I could learn about improvements before I have another go.


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## head clansman (8 Feb 2009)

Hi dave d 

nice plane , stainless teel that must have been a pipper to work , but nether the less something to be proud of when finished nice job , interesting the way you joined the sides an sole together , what sort of spacing between each drilled and threaded hole just out of interest.hc


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## Dave D (8 Feb 2009)

Spacing about 25mm if I remember correctly but the more the merrier.
With anything softer than SS they could be done very quickly. Much faster than doing dovetails I would imagine.


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## head clansman (8 Feb 2009)

Hi Dave d 

thanks for that info , somthing else to file away in the back of the old grey matter .hc


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## Aled Dafis (8 Feb 2009)

Dave D":32xjmsrl said:


> The above plane is obviously not a bronze infill but the technique I used to make it might be easier for any planemaker who, like me is a little wary of trying the dovetail method.
> 
> It should be obvious from the photo that I have been smitten by Karl Holtey's masterpieces.
> His website showed the sole of his No 98 plane CNC machined to have built in rivets so that the sides can be rivetted in place.
> ...



Dave

This looks like a stunning plane, can we please have more pics =D> =D> 

I've been considering this assembly method also, and I like the way you went about it. Was there a particular reason you went for 2BA threads as opposed to a metric thread such as M4 or M5? This is how Ron Bresse, goes about it also, and if you search a little on the Sawmillcreek forum, he explains his method on there somewhere.

I take my hat off to you, making that plane in Stainless must have been a real pain. Well Done!! \/ \/

Edit

Did you make the brass knobs? If so, how did you go about doing the "knurling"?


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## Mr Ed (8 Feb 2009)

Aled Dafis":2hjij0st said:


> This looks like a stunning plane, can we please have more pics



You beat me to it Aled - we need to see more pics of the plane Dave, it looks outstanding...  

Cheers, Ed


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## Dave D (9 Feb 2009)

Hello Aled

The reason for the 2BA is simply that I had a set of BA taps at the time but no metric ones.
I was pleased to learn that others are also using the technique. I will follow up the Ron Bresse link, Thanks.

The "knurling" was in fact done by flycutting with the tool rotated by the lathe and the work held in a dividing head on a vertical slide.
Since the rotation diameter of the cutting tool was quite small it produced a pointy ended cut on the workpiece.

I am off on holiday tomorrow evening but I will try to post some more pics if I have time.


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## Pete B (9 Feb 2009)

You could knock one together yourself using the tutorials and ideas over at Handplane Central.


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## Chris Knight (9 Feb 2009)

Waka":1z00wt1b said:


> Some nice looking chisel's there, do you have any?



Not yet..


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## Dave D (9 Feb 2009)

I have one more picture of the plane.





If the handle looks big and ungainly its because I have big and ungainly hands.
I actually get blisters between my thumb and forefinger if I use my Stanley No6 for long periods even with a three finger grip. One of the joys of making your own tools is that they can fit your hands perfectly.
If I had any sense of course I would just make a new handle for the Stanley.


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## head clansman (9 Feb 2009)

Hi DAVE D 

few question if i may please .

I t being stainless steel how did you shape the sides and form the bevel to the mouth pieces in the sole would an ordinary file be any good on it at all . or did you buy it in kit form or do have a milling machine & would you have to have special cutters for that to be able to work stainless .? 

it also appears to be quite a low angle as well or is this the way the pic appears to be taken , i do like the thickness to the sole and then the extra mouth piece make it look really chunky . really nice plane .

make a new handle for the old one, nay , not enough fun.hc


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## Dave D (9 Feb 2009)

To get a good idea of the shapes of all the bits of the plane take a look at the images of Karl Holtey's No 98 on this website.

The blade bed angle is 20 degrees which with a 25 degree grinding angle and another 10 degrees for honing gives a total of 55 degrees.

The front of my plane has two layers of SS the upper one is rivetted to the sides and the lower one forming the sole forms the adjustable mouth and is held fast by screwing down the front knob.


All the machining was done on a Myford Super 7 lathe with sharp HSS tools and milling cutters.
Shaping the sides was done with several hacksaw blades, an angle grinder, some new files and Hermes RB406 abrasive roll which was also used for lapping the sole.
This stuff was apparently invented for polishing stainless steel submarines and I got mine from Axminster but it does not seem to be in their current catalogue.

However I picked the brains of Konrad Sauer at Westonbirt last year and he recommended Norton A275 which is available from Farnell in the uk.
This does cut very aggressively although it wears out quickly but is quite cheap.

To get back to your original question, If you were to make a bronze infill plane using rivets without an adjuster then you could manage with just hand tools and a drill press.

Let us all know how you get on. There is always something new to learn.


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## head clansman (9 Feb 2009)

Hi dave d 

thank you. hc


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## bugbear (10 Feb 2009)

head clansman":2g8239u8 said:


> Hi dave d
> 
> thank you. hc



try a google search - infill planes have always had a fascination for people, and now that posting photographs and stories is easy, many people have written up their projects.

BugBear


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## Mikey R (10 Feb 2009)

Dave D":yqw6trys said:


> To get back to your original question, If you were to make a bronze infill plane using rivets without an adjuster then you could manage with just hand tools and a drill press.



Hi Dave,

That is such a nice plane - congratulations! I'd love to have a go at one myself!

Using something softer than stainless steel, mild steel perhaps, do you think it would be possible with a hand held drill rather than a drill press?

If you drill both the sides and the sole at the same time, it doesnt matter if the holes arent perpendicular. I would hope a little slopiness could also be fixed whilst peening?

Cheers!


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## Pekka Huhta (10 Feb 2009)

I made that one with only a handheld drill, hacksaw and files:







(the whole thread at https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=25184 )

Ok, I used a bench grinder with the iron, but you really do not need that much tooling when building traditional tools. 

My rivets were far from perpendicular as well. The most important thing is just to keep the parts tightly together when drilling. You can also put on the first two rivets and then drill the rest. 

Pekka


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## Mikey R (11 Feb 2009)

Pekka Huhta":2mbdry74 said:


> I made that one with only a handheld drill, hacksaw and files:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Pekka, thats a fine looking plane too. I like how all the metal parts were recycled.


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## Harbo (11 Feb 2009)

What lovely planes and great skill.

I bought a mini lathe a few months ago (Emco Unimat 3) and when I have finished making my clock - one day???  

Rod


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## Dave D (13 Feb 2009)

Hello Mickey

As you can see from the above posts your logic is correct.
Why not have a go with some scrap material first to get a feel the process and to see how much work would be involved for a complete plane


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## Pekka Huhta (16 Feb 2009)

Dave D":3o5z2iq3 said:


> Why not have a go with some scrap material first to get a feel the process and to see how much work would be involved for a complete plane



A very good idea indeed. When I started building a dovetail plane I made one dovetail just to get a knack of it. I also could then break the joint to see how strong it was and how it behaved when bending. 

The dovetail was surprisingly weak in 3 mm steel/brass. The peeled pins (or tails, whatever) bent with bare hands, there was no need for putting the other part in a vice or using tools. 

Pekka


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