# Newbie: Am I doing something wrong?



## Mr Mannanan (23 Oct 2014)

Hello there. First time poster here looking for some guidence...A few years ago my wife kindly bought me a starter lathe from B&Q along with a few tools as a Christmas present after I'd given an indication that I wouldn't mind turning a bowl, I'd made one at school decades before. After many initial failures and a few very small succeses I forgot about my new hobby and didn't touch it for quite a few years until last year when I picked it up again....Struggling even more and thinking that it was because my tools were blunt I searched on line and bought what I thought would be a great help and my saving grace, a Robert Sorby Turnmaster. To be honest I was very disappointed because unlike the videos I'd seen where the chaps were removing great amounts of wood in seconds, it took me an age and at times I found it hard work. After one fairly decent bowl which took a great deal of time I gave up....That was until this week when I thought it about time I got the hang of this turning malarkey once and for all....However I'm still finding it very slow and difficult to remove wood. Am I doing something wrong? I've read some articles and looked at videos but I'm no further forward. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated....Thanks in anticipation, 

Pete
Ramsey
Isle of Man


----------



## Smithy (23 Oct 2014)

Hi Pete. Do not be disheartened by the videos. These people have been turning for years and naturally make it look easy. In my opinion nothing beats pratice and perserverance. You don't always have to make something just play and get used to your tools. Are you using the right tools for the job? And the most important thing is keeping your tools nice and sharp.

Happy turning

Mike


----------



## DiscoStu (23 Oct 2014)

Hi Pete, I've not got a lathe and only had a play at turning once on my FIL lathe. I didn't have an issue make stock round and cutting shapes into it etc. No I by no means produced anything useful, but I didn't have an issue removing wood. I only mention this because if a complete silly person like myself was able to remove wood and make something round then I suspect anyone can and I suspect something might be wrong? Maybe the lathe is too slow / fast for what you're trying to do etc. I think some of the greatly more knowledgable chaps on here might have some suggestions for what to look for / check. Is there anyone local that turns who might be able to check your setup? I suspect it's not you! I also wonder if there are any classes nearby? Or maybe even book a day course at Axminster?


----------



## JimB (23 Oct 2014)

Hi Pete, it's hard to give any advice when there is so little information. However, the best advice I was ever given was that the tool will tell you what it wants to do. If it is making hard work of it you're either using the wrong tool for the job, presenting wrongly to the work or, as Mike emphasizes, it might be blunt. When a tool is cutting as it should it... well you can't mistake the sweet feeling. It's rather like hitting a golf ball perfectly for the first time or doing a perfect gear change when learning to drive. It will come if you give it time.


----------



## CHJ (23 Oct 2014)

Mr Mannanan":cyucin7k said:


> ..Am I doing something wrong? I've read some articles and looked at videos but I'm no further forward. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated....Thanks in anticipation,
> 
> Pete
> Ramsey
> Isle of Man



Three things for starters:-
1. If you have not got it already Get a copy of Woodturning-Foundation-Course by -Keith-Rowley
2. Make getting your tools sharp a priority, they may need sharpening several times during a 15-30 min turning session not just once a week.
3. Read through the Help Sticky at the top of the forum for relevant entries on tool catches, angles etc. and the rest of them for background information.


Sounds like No.2 is your main problem, if a tool is sharp enough and presented correctly then it should cut the moment it touches the wood without you applying any pressure and 90% of the time you should be having to restrict how much it is removing not trying to force it to cut.


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (23 Oct 2014)

From one novice to another.
I was having the same problem at first making scrapings rather than shavings and it was annoying me. Keep at it and give your tools a good sharpen or find a local club to take your tools along see if someone can help you sharpen them properly. The tools themselves may be the problem as I've read a few times that cheap chisels are as good for turning as a spoon would be.
You said you bought the Lathe from B&Q what lathe is it and what tools do you have?
Also what wood are you trying to turn?


----------



## Mr Mannanan (23 Oct 2014)

Hi there again.

Thank you all so much for your very prompt and informative replies. I certainly intend to get a copy of the book because reading various posts on different issues it seems to hold a great many answers, I'll also take on board your other suggestions. One thing that stands out in all your replies is the need for sharp tools and I understand this and that was the reason I purchased a Robert Sorby tool with interchangeable heads, which according to the bumf doesn't require any sharpening at all....Perhaps it's all down to practice and perseverance. Thanks once again......Off to shed to get some practice in..........I should have added....the lathe is a B&Q own brand...Pro something or other and it's a piece of sycamore I'm trying to turn, previously I tried oak.


----------



## Harry 48 (23 Oct 2014)

The turnmaster will only scrape wood a well sharpened tool will slice the wood if your riding the bevel correctly you guide the tool not force it plenty of youtube's on this method.

There is not a wood turning tool that does not need sharpening even carbide cutters don't last for ever.
Sharp tools are the turners best friend :lol:


----------



## Tazmaniandevil (23 Oct 2014)

I'm almost completely self taught. I say almost, because I did have some bad tuition during my higher woodwork 30-odd years ago, and I have had some one to one tuition.
I would recommend joining a club at the very least and finding out whether anyone there will spare you some time for guidance.
A couple of hundred quid on some pro tuition though, will make all the difference. No-one will profess to showing you how to turn "the right way." Folk can and will be able to say what you're doing wrong.
I'm not familiar with the turnmaster, but I believe it is a scraper. (when turning was first invented it was all probably done with scrapers)
I think you will be able to remove material much more quickly with well sharpened gouges.


----------



## Dalboy (23 Oct 2014)

CHJ":2itsa6q2 said:


> Mr Mannanan":2itsa6q2 said:
> 
> 
> > ..Am I doing something wrong? I've read some articles and looked at videos but I'm no further forward. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated....Thanks in anticipation,
> ...



+1 for CHJ's advice. When I first started turning I used the "Woodturning A Foundation Course by Keith Rowley" and found lots of information in it try to practice what he has put in the book even if it is just a spindle with beads a coves. Get a feel of the tools, then make your first piece that is of use and keep it to look back on.


----------



## Mr Mannanan (23 Oct 2014)

Thank you all so much for your very welcome advice. No time to do anything today but with the weekend coming up hopefully I will find some time. I must say i'm a tad disappointed in the Robert Sorby tool because it's advertised as never going blunt. whatever, I will persevere.....


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (23 Oct 2014)

I don't think the problem stems from the Tool being blunt but more a case of it being used for the wrong job.
If you want to remove a large amount of wood you're better off using a Rouging Gouge.


----------



## CHJ (23 Oct 2014)

Rlewisrlou66":3ltcvt2d said:


> I don't think the problem stems from the Tool being blunt but more a case of it being used for the wrong job.
> If you want to remove a large amount of wood you're better off using a Rouging Gouge.



The OP is talking about attempting to make Bowls, no way should a conventional Roughing Gouge be used on Bowl Blanks, one catch on the end grain and a serious accident could happen if the tang bends or breaks.





Roughing Gouge


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (23 Oct 2014)

I meant for Roughing out blanks to take most of the material before getting to the making of the bowl.
Sorry if I didn't make my point clear I'm new to turning too.


----------



## Dalboy (23 Oct 2014)

Rlewisrlou66":kszhz2k2 said:


> I meant for Roughing out blanks to take most of the material before getting to the making of the bowl.
> Sorry if I didn't make my point clear I'm new to turning too.



As CHJ said never use a roughing gouge on a bowl blank not even to rough the blank to a round keep it for spindle work. Most of my work is carried out with the basic tools, but I keep the roughing gouge for spindle work only and would never dream of using it for bowl work or cross grain work.


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (24 Oct 2014)

What is the right tool then?


----------



## Harry 48 (24 Oct 2014)

A bowl gouge :roll:


----------



## JimB (24 Oct 2014)

Harry 48":3o6dwp1u said:


> A bowl gouge :roll:


Now why do they call it that? :twisted:


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (24 Oct 2014)

I know that guys I was just being snarky because even though they told me what not to use on several occasions not once did they suggest an alternative. Lol


----------



## CHJ (24 Oct 2014)

Rlewisrlou66":zs744kak said:


> I know that guys I was just being snarky because even though they told me what not to use on several occasions not once did they suggest an alternative. Lol


That's probably because an experienced turner will select an appropriate tool for the task in hand, and this could be a significantly different choice having a visual appraisal of any particular piece.

The short "Don't use that tool" response over a text message is usually a cry for STOP, you are likely as an inexperienced turner to have an accident. That being the thing foremost in most turners minds. 
Others less used to being 'instructors' may not appreciate the need for addition advice in situ.

Without standing alongside you looking at the job on the lathe the best most people can do is point you to a written explanation of which tool to use for maximum safety and ease of use until you have had practice enough to make your own appraisal.


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (24 Oct 2014)

You didn't offer him or me any explanation just "Don't use that." It would have been much more helpful as you're the experienced turner to say "Use this instead." 
The guy asking for help has been struggling for years as he had said previously. He's using a Sorby Carbide Scrapper and only that no other Gouges/Skews/Parting Tools.
Probably on the advice of an "experienced" turner with no other explanation other than "Its for making bowls."

Sorry I really don't mean to sound rude CHJ but it is true.

I have mental conditions that stop me from attending clubs and gatherings and generally meeting new people in person so forums like this are really my only way of directly asking people for help.

Thank you for the links you have shared and again sorry if I come across as being rude.


----------



## paulm (24 Oct 2014)

Rlewisrlou66":3brvg5z3 said:


> You didn't offer him or me any explanation just "Don't use that." It would have been much more helpful as you're the experienced turner to say "Use this instead."
> The guy asking for help has been struggling for years as he had said previously. He's using a Sorby Carbide Scrapper and only that no other Gouges/Skews/Parting Tools.
> Probably on the advice of an "experienced" turner with no other explanation other than "Its for making bowls."
> 
> ...



Being snarky and rude and generally hard work isn't the best way to get help and assistance, just saying.....


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (24 Oct 2014)

paulm":3i2y0myb said:


> Being snarky and rude and generally hard work isn't the best way to get help and assistance, just saying.....



and this is the reason for needing to be snarky and rude. 
People with nothing to offer in the way of helping the original poster, Just saying.....


----------



## paulm (24 Oct 2014)

Rlewisrlou66":1iet2xyd said:


> paulm":1iet2xyd said:
> 
> 
> > Being snarky and rude and generally hard work isn't the best way to get help and assistance, just saying.....
> ...



:roll:


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (24 Oct 2014)

Paulm,

You can roll your eyes till the cows come home but instead of rolling your eyes how about you share you vast knowledge with us new to turning? 
You've been on this site since 2005 so you must know a thing or two.

If you have something to add then add it so people who come here for help don't give up because they are asking for help and are told to go away till they have read a specific book or joined a specific club.
I tried to help and got it wrong I admit that but CHJ told me I got it wrong and others reiterated what he had already said, no-one till prompted would give up the right tool.

As I have previously said I'm new to turning myself and would welcome some constructive advice and not rolled eyes like I get from my 8 year old daughter when I tell her to clean her toys away.

Pete, Sorry for high jacking your "Help" thread,


----------



## paulm (24 Oct 2014)

Rlewisrlou66":2zxh7buc said:


> Paulm,
> 
> You can roll your eyes till the cows come home but instead of rolling your eyes how about you share you vast knowledge with us new to turning?
> You've been on this site since 2005 so you must know a thing or two.
> ...



:roll:


----------



## jpt (24 Oct 2014)

A spindle roughing gouge after being used on a bowl blank.







john


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (24 Oct 2014)

Wowzer I hope you made it out unscathed from this, 
Thanks for sharing what happens when you use the wrong tool.


----------



## Tazmaniandevil (24 Oct 2014)

Been there, wore the bandage. I didn't take any photos of my roughing gouge when I snapped it and sent the metal flute winging past my head into the garage wall.
My fault entirely, although I still stand by my belief that the cheapo tools I was using were poorly manufactured.

Unfortunately, there is nothing to stop _*anyone*_ from purchasing a potentially life changing injury on-line (in the shape of a power tool) and using it with insufficient knowledge. 

I'm one of the lucky ones.


----------



## Mr Mannanan (24 Oct 2014)

Gent's, thank you all so much for your very valued comments, I'm taking everything on board.

If I'm honest with you I never knew there was a difference between a bowl gouge and a roughing gouge so I could in fact be an accident waiting to happen.....I did a little turning at school and then nothing until my wife bought me the lathe some thirty odd years later......I suppose you could say I've jumped in two footed, rather clumsily in hindsight, reading only the bits I wanted to read, and in all probability missing the more obvious, a man trait I'm sure and one I could do without. I do however take safety seriously and wear my work issue safety glasses at all times. I certainly didn't think accidents like the one highlighted in JPT's image happened.....It looks as if I've a longer learning curve to cover than I first thought, though saying that I knew it wouldn't be easy.....In the three day's I've been a member of this forum I have received valuable information and seen loads of stuff which I never knew could be made on a lathe, so just for that it's been a very worthwhile experience. Hopefully in the coming weeks and months I will learn more from you very kind people and that I'll make some sort of progress as well as some good objects. Thank you all again for all your help. Very much appreciated. Pete


----------



## stevenw1963 (24 Oct 2014)

Start turning some small stuff, like pens or pendants & the like or even just scrap wood to practise on with the only aim of getting used to your tools & the lathe. Don't rush into it. 
Get used to your tools and presenting them the right way and then move onto bigger things when you're comfortable.
I did a little bit of turning at school some 40 yrs ago too and didn't pick up another turning tool in anger until a couple of yrs ago where my wife also bought me a lathe for Christmas.
There aren't any clubs near me so I learnt off t'internet & books, joined a forum like this one where constructive criticism was taken on board in the manner it was meant and instruction & knowledge was feely given.
Yes, you'll come across those anally retentive individuals who think their way is the only way and take their bat & ball home if you don't agree with them, these people you totally dis-regard, you'll soon get to know those who are knowledgeable by the encouragement they give and who to take note of.
Keep your tools sharp and go slow to begin with but most importantly, enjoy your hobby.


----------



## paulm (24 Oct 2014)

Indeed, we're a friendly bunch by and large, and it's a great hobby, just ask away with any questions and there's bound to be someone who can help 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Mr Mannanan (24 Oct 2014)

Thanks again. I can't tell you how pleased and encouraged I am by all your responses....so I have more questions......sorry....In addition I have some idea as to which tool I have does, however I'd like to be sure of these things so if I managed to post a photo of those I have got could somebody kindly tell me the correct useage?


----------



## Dalboy (24 Oct 2014)

Mr Mannanan":p0yos1b5 said:


> Thanks again. I can't tell you how pleased and encouraged I am by all your responses....so I have more questions......sorry....In addition I have some idea as to which tool I have does, however I'd like to be sure of these things so if I managed to post a photo of those I have got could somebody kindly tell me the correct useage?



Just out of interest as you may have seen in some forums the little quote that keeps popping up and that is.

"The only silly question is the one you don.t ask" What may appear silly to the seasoned turner who has been doing it for years is a sensible question when you are starting out. In other word just keep asking if you don't know.


----------



## SteveF (24 Oct 2014)

put some pics up
soon get pointed in right direction

Steve


----------



## JimB (24 Oct 2014)

Photos are needed to narrow things down. Otherwise it's like the old question on a car problem. It starts ok in the morning but won't go more than a couple of feet. Answer - open the garage door!


----------



## Mr Mannanan (25 Oct 2014)

Hope this works and that you can see them ok.


----------



## paulm (25 Oct 2014)

Can't really see too well in the photo to be sure what they all are, some more pictures of the business ends would help, but the third down from top is a broad parting tool for spindle work, cleaning up the ends of a spindle, sizing tenons and similar, and rolling beads too.

Next one down is a bowl gouge, for shaping the outside of bowls and hollowing out the insides. Notice the strong shaft that will take the loads exerted without risk of bending or snapping. Might benefit from a more versatile shaped grind on the end.

The bottom one doesn't look quite chunky enough to be a roughing gouge so I suspect it is a continental style spindle gouge for shaping and smoothing of spindles.

Hope that's of some help, although maybe triggers some follow on questions 

If you can take some closer pics of the rest should be able to say more, likely to be skews, scrapers or bedans and the like but hard to be sure with my dodgy eyesight !

Cheers, Paul


----------



## CHJ (25 Oct 2014)

Pete, try placing a sheet of white paper under the business ends when photographing.

The Bowl Gouge looks to be a on the bigger size for diameter, not a problem as far as risk and strength but may be causing you some extra problems by size of cut and loads being taken, you may find a smaller 3/8" or 1/2" version easier to use. (Bowl gouge diameters are usually specified by flute characteristics in UK and bar stock diameter in USA) See this link for explanation

Also have a browse around that Toolpost site for more details of tool cutting edge shapes and a guide to there uses denoted by name.

Think Pauls naming of the continental style spindle gouge is correct, a very useful tool, think of it as a nervous mans skew chisel for spindle sizing, sharpen with simple 45deg ( or thereabouts) bevel.


----------



## Mr Mannanan (25 Oct 2014)

PaulM and CHJ, thank you so much for your quick replies, and info, I really appreciate it. I'll try and take some better images.


----------



## procell (25 Oct 2014)

+1 for the advice from CHJ and Dalboy. 
As regards the turnmaster tool, even though it has interchangeable cutters they will still need to be sharpened from time to time. It is a fundamental principal that when two objects come into contact with each other there WILL be a transfer of material from both objects no matter how hard they are. over time this will dull the edge of even the most durable tools.

You do not say what other tools you have but I suspect that if they came with the lathe as a set then they are probably a cheap poor quality set that are not up to the task. As many will tell you it is always best to get the best quality tools you can afford. Cheap tools will blunt too easily and is the cause of many people giving up shortly after starting. Spend some time learning how to sharpen the tools properly (there are numerous sharpening jigs available to help) and they will reward you with hours of fun and satisfaction.


----------



## Mr Mannanan (25 Oct 2014)

Procell, thank you for your reply. All the tools I have are pictured above.


----------



## procell (25 Oct 2014)

sorry I just noticed that I had nopt read all the posts before replying


----------



## procell (25 Oct 2014)

Managed to zoom into the picture of your tools using ctrl and mouse wheel. 

The top 2 look like scrapers which can be used for both bowl and spindle work. 
The 3rd one down is a parting tool as previously mentioned
The next one is a bowl gouge as stated
2nd from bottom looks like a skew chisel which is for spindle work (not easy to master but worth the effort)
bottom one looks like a roughing gouge (as stated do not use on bowls)
Please note these may not be correct identification so don't shoot me if I'm wrong

May be worth looking for a couple of spindle gouges which can be used for both spindle and bowl work.

Once again try to get the best your wallet will allow.


----------



## Mr Mannanan (25 Oct 2014)

Thanks again Procell for taking the time to have a look and reply. Greatly appreciated....Spindle gouges it is then....Since visiting these forums I've seen a lot of things I'd like to try making, especially the easy stuff. I quite like the idea of honey dippers. What tool would you suggest and of course the best wood?


----------



## Mark Hancock (25 Oct 2014)

procell":23w1yqy1 said:


> Managed to zoom into the picture of your tools using ctrl and mouse wheel.
> 
> The top 2 look like scrapers which can be used for both bowl and spindle work.
> The 3rd one down is a parting tool as previously mentioned
> ...



Sorry but a bit of a rant: Please do NOT call it a "roughing gouge" as it only perpetuates it's miss use by beginners. It is a SPINDLE Roughing Gouge and as the correct name implies should only be used on parallel grain timber.
Thanks. Rant over


----------



## Phil Pascoe (25 Oct 2014)

In an ideal world, maybe, but that's not strictly speaking correct. Look to buy one anywhere and it'll be listed as a "roughing gouge". In fact I've not heard of one being called a "spindle roughing gouge" before.


----------



## CHJ (25 Oct 2014)

As identified beforehand, to my eyes interpretation of the image it's a continental style Spindle Gouge, might by the look of it even be an older hot forged carbon steel version.

Modern versions can be had from Sorby amongst others.





A spindle Roughing Gouge has a much thicker wall and upswept sides, sometimes even more pronounced than this image and with a much narrower flute.




Image taken from Here


----------



## CHJ (26 Oct 2014)

*Left to Right. *





1. HSS *Spindle Roughing Gouge*, should never be used on a bowl blank where End Grain is likely to be encountered, risk of tang snapping or bending if catch experienced.
2. *Continental Style Spindle Gouge*, older examples likely Carbon Steel modern ones usually HSS, again should never be used on a bowl blank where End Grain is likely to be encountered.
3. *Typical HSS Spindle Gouge*, Round Section Spindle Gouge can be used on end grain, shank in handle is stiff and strong as in a HSS Bowl Gouge.


----------



## Rlewisrlou66 (26 Oct 2014)

Thanks CHJ


----------



## Mr Mannanan (26 Oct 2014)

Thank you CHJ.......After taking advice from here and watching many turning videos, I've spent some time in my shed today on my lathe, between launching and recovering the Ramsey Lifeboat on exercise, and I must say things are a lot easier and I can see some actual progress, so once again a great big thank you from me for all the input....


----------



## Dalboy (26 Oct 2014)

Mr Mannanan":3jcyriua said:


> Thank you CHJ.......After taking advice from here and watching many turning videos, I've spent some time in my shed today on my lathe, between launching and recovering the Ramsey Lifeboat on exercise, and I must say things are a lot easier and I can see some actual progress, so once again a great big thank you from me for all the input....



Nothing to do with turning but well done on being a volunteer for the life boat certainly a worthy cause. 

This is one of two charities that I support the other being The British Heart foundation The first due to my mum being part of a Fund raising unit down here in Kent. The second due to me being a heart attack patient on more than one occasion.


----------



## Mr Mannanan (26 Oct 2014)

Thanks.....Being a born and bred "Brummie" it was odd to find that I have sea-legs....Been living on the Island 13 years now and been volunteering for ten of those. Retired off the boat last year because of my arthritis but am still part of the shore crew....


----------

