# Whats wrong with this wood?



## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

Hi All
I've just joined the forum as I will be restoring furniture for my new house and plan for everything inside and out to be restored, refurbished or made by myself. I have seen this sideboard that needs a little work but the wood has strange lines parallel to the grain, I've not seen that before. Does anyone know what it is? Thanks for any help.


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## MARK.B. (8 Nov 2021)

Could it be where the boards have been joined


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## Cabinetman (8 Nov 2021)

Hi Venny and welcome, at first I thought it may be marks from a bandsaw, but don’t think so, probably just interesting grain. Ian


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

I was thinking bandsaw but then thought figured grain, but I don't know what figured grain is. Just felt odd on a sideboard that someone would have bought from a shop.


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## MARK.B. (8 Nov 2021)

Ahh those strange lines, some interesting figuring it is , all adds to the finished piece


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

Ahh Mark, I get your original response now  Figuring your recon? I got that suggestion from google, I just don't know if I should part money for a cabinet that needs repairing that has that on it or if I'm best looking elsewhere


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

I don't even know if it is figured grain!


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## Inspector (8 Nov 2021)

The wood grew with little waves in the wood and when cut through them on the flat you get the lines. It is often called curl or given marketing name describing it like Curly Maple, Fiddleback maple or Tiger Stripe Maple. All part of the unique qualities of every tree.

Pete


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

Hi Inspector, that's interesting as I was told it was Teak.


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## TRITON (8 Nov 2021)

I would have thought it was ripple. 
If you look on the side edge of it closely you should see the grain in a wave pattern rather than straight.

It looks as it does due to refraction.


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

There is a light on the wood to show it up more. Would it be agreed that this is a normal thing in wood rather than a production fault or decay?


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## Cabinetman (8 Nov 2021)

Quite normal and prized by some!


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## grumpycorn (8 Nov 2021)

VENNY said:


> There is a light on the wood to show it up more. Would it be agreed that this is a normal thing in wood rather than a production fault or decay?


Curl / ripple is unusual, but definitely not a production fault etc.... just makes a board more expensive! The person who built it will have deliberately put it front and centre - they took enough care to make the two drop downs out of one board so the grain is continuous. Looks great!


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

Thanks everyone. I may just see if I can pick the cabinet up and fix it up. It should be a simple repair and an easy job for a beginner.


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## Inspector (8 Nov 2021)

VENNY said:


> Hi Inspector, that's interesting as I was told it was Teak.



I wasn't trying to say it is Maple only illustrating the many names of similar figure in a wood. To me that is the wrong colour for teak but that isn't to say the picture on my screen isn't off. The figure doesn't look like any Teak I have ever seen but that isn't to say it isn't. 

Pete


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## Sporky McGuffin (8 Nov 2021)

That's a nice bit of timber. I'd describe that figuring as flame rather than curly.


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## TRITON (8 Nov 2021)

.


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

Inspector said:


> I wasn't trying to say it is Maple only illustrating the many names of similar figure in a wood. To me that is the wrong colour for teak but that isn't to say the picture on my screen isn't off. The figure doesn't look like any Teak I have ever seen but that isn't to say it isn't.
> 
> Pete


Thanks Pete I’m new to all this, I wasn’t arguing I only meant that the seller said it was teak. I’m not over concerned about what wood it is to be honest. I was more concerned that there was an issue with the wood. But you and everyone else has settled my mind that it’s a natural, if not desirable grain of the wood.


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## Sgian Dubh (8 Nov 2021)

In the larger board above the glued joint line you have lightly cross-grained ripple figure. Below the joint line you seem to have some brown coloured streaks running parallel with the grain: the brown staining cause is possibly incipient beefsteak fungal infection. I'm almost certain the wood species is ash, and if that's the case the brown staining just described was extensive rather than minor the piece would be called olive ash. If the wood is ash it could be either one of the American or European species. Slainte.


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## MARK.B. (8 Nov 2021)

I like to see some figuring like that and it is not a flaw but an added extra, agree with Richard on Ash  


VENNY said:


> Ahh Mark, I get your original response now  Figuring your recon? I got that suggestion from google, I just don't know if I should part money for a cabinet that needs repairing that has that on it or if I'm best looking elsewhere


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## guineafowl21 (8 Nov 2021)

VENNY said:


> wood has strange lines parallel to the grain


I’d go for quilted grain, but those lines are perpendicular to the grain. Is that what you meant?


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## TRITON (8 Nov 2021)

guineafowl21 said:


> I’d go for quilted grain, but those lines are perpendicular to the grain. Is that what you meant?


This is a better example of quilted.


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

I've bought the sideboard, just a couple of bits to bring it back to life. It needs the legs shortening as at nearly 1m high, its a bit too high for a sideboard. Its a south African brand I have been told. Some nicks to the corners but I was thinking knot filler squared off if I can find the right colour. Then some serious elbow grease polishing and buffing, unless there are any other issues.


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## MARK.B. (8 Nov 2021)

To highall down to personal choice of course looks about right height and in proportion to my old eyes


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## Droogs (8 Nov 2021)

Looks far more like Elm to me than Teak. As said above a board with a ripple grain to it, very nice bit of wood.the effect can be seen most prominently in sycamore below


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## Ollie78 (8 Nov 2021)

It is figuring as mentioned above. The technical term for the effect of the light refraction on the grain is chatoyance or chatoyancy. 
Good for the pub quiz or scrabble.


Ollie


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> To highall down to personal choice of course looks about right height and in proportion to my old eyes


You're right the proportions are fine from an aesthetics point of view, but its not functional. So I need to figure how much I can shorten it without throwing off the aesthetics and wrecking a nice piece of furniture. In part I need to know how longs the legs are and then I'll have an idea who much can be lost.


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## Sachakins (8 Nov 2021)

Maybe use a new leg design altogether, a square tapered splayed leg would help keep proportions.


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## VENNY (8 Nov 2021)

Sachakins said:


> Maybe use a new leg design altogether, a square tapered splayed leg would help keep proportions.


It’s all original from the 70s I’d like to keep that as much as I can. There seems to be an obsession with sticking hairpin legs on mid century furniture. I know you’re not suggesting that. But I like the squareness of everything on it. But if it came to altering the legs I may chamfer the legs.


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## kinverkid (8 Nov 2021)

The legs and frame are almost definitely teak, the frontages may be fooling us because I think it has bleached with exposure but I think that they are also teak. Nice ripple. Gary


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## TRITON (9 Nov 2021)

The box I made yonks ago from I think an Ash the council cut down in our shared garden and I saved a chunk had some lovely rippling effect to it. I used the riven technique to quarter it then dressed it all down by hand, no machinery. 
I've only the one pic, stupidly because it was a gift for someone didn't take many.


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## toolsntat (9 Nov 2021)

VENNY said:


> I've bought the sideboard, just a couple of bits to bring it back to life. It needs the legs shortening as at nearly 1m high, its a bit too high for a sideboard. Its a south African brand I have been told. Some nicks to the corners but I was thinking knot filler squared off if I can find the right colour. Then some serious elbow grease polishing and buffing, unless there are any other issues.View attachment 121479


Nice workmanship in keeping the bottom grain lined up which makes me think the left drawer might be better on the right hand end of the other two.
Left one out, other two move over.
Cheers Andy


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## KimG (9 Nov 2021)

Yes I would go with Ash as most likely, at first I thought it might have been Elm, but it isn't quite irregular enough or the right colour for Elm. I agree with Pete too, I don't think it's teak, the grain and colour is wrong.


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## recipio (9 Nov 2021)

I think you mean perpendicular to the grain. They are ripple or fiddleback features and on the bottom below the glue line some olive marking found mainly in maple but also ash. I'd agree the wood is ash.


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## Sean33 (9 Nov 2021)

VENNY said:


> Hi All
> I've just joined the forum as I will be restoring furniture for my new house and plan for everything inside and out to be restored, refurbished or made by myself. I have seen this sideboard that needs a little work but the wood has strange lines parallel to the grain, I've not seen that before. Does anyone know what it is? Thanks for any help.View attachment 121423


I would suggest it is ripple/curly, If it helps i always pay more for grain like that!


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## spanner48 (10 Nov 2021)

I suggest it may be Sycamore or another Acer species. The figuring is called "fiddleback" and is highly prized amongst luthiers - amongst others - for precisely that purpose. You're very lucky to have got such large single pieces, all so figured.

It occurs around and below the point where a branch grows out, and is caused by the compression from the weight of the branch acting on the fibres supporting it.

When Acers are felled, wise lumbermen will save these "joint crooks" specifically for the figuring.


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## Richard_C (10 Nov 2021)

Nice piece, sort of G Plan but not quite, maybe made by Nathan or similar.

If you search online for "mid Century sideboards" and select images you will get dozens of pictures. Might help with leg ideas. A search for mid century furniture restoration will also yield results, some sensible. Read a few and see what might work for you.

I would be very reluctant to cut the legs down, its an integral part of the look and its not just legs, its a well made frame. It might be the perfect height to stand your record player on so you can use it without bending over . But noting your practicality comment what you could perhaps do is take off the whole under frame and store it away, make a platform slightly smaller than the sideboard so its not seen unless you are lying on the floor, fit legs to that and and fit that to the bottom. Legs maybe splayed square as others have suggested, or simple short cylindrical.

If yu are new to this, take care not to dive in and 'over restore'.* If its structurally sound I would start by giving it a good clean (white spirit perhaps but test it on a hidden bit) to get rid of years of accumulated wax and ingrained dust then spend a few weeks looking at it before going further. You might find that a good clean and a coat of hard wax or some oil will be enough. Once you start to do more, there is no going back. If the chips are small, you might decide you can live with them. If the back is finished in the same way as the front, that is your trial ground for cleaning and finishing. If not then maybe the mid height rear areas of the sides which are visible but not prominent in most room layouts.

* _This from experience. I started in on a kneehole desk that came from my father's house, probabaly 1920's - he got it second hand. I managed to soften and then damage the finish so ended up stripping it right back. It's OK and I still use it, but it lost its 'spirit'. I'm still cross with myself - and that was in 1974._


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## Sgian Dubh (10 Nov 2021)

spanner48 said:


> The figuring is called "fiddleback" and is highly prized amongst luthiers - amongst others - for precisely that purpose. You're very lucky to have got such large single pieces, all so figured.


I'd say the figure in the original photograph isn't pronounced enough really to qualify as fiddleback. The image below falls into that category better.




​


spanner48 said:


> It occurs around and below the point where a branch grows out, and is caused by the compression from the weight of the branch acting on the fibres supporting it.


I wonder if you might be slightly in error with that description of the cause of ripple or fiddleback figuring? It occurs to me that you might be mixing it up with the cause of crotch figure? As far as I'm aware no-one has definitively pinned down the precise mechanism that causes a tree to develop rippled growth - it seems to be a random and largely unpredictable occurrence, or at least that's what my researches into the topic suggest. If you have sources for what you say I'd very much appreciate you pointing me towards them. 

I'm a bit sceptical of what you say because ripple figure sometimes extends the full length of boards that might be anywhere between 8' and 16' long. In cases like this, if the board is essentially clear of defects and knots I can't see how such figuring is related to the close proximity of the underside of a branch. 

Crotch figuring occurs at the intersection of two branches, an example of which is in the image below of two leaves of veneer opened out like the pages of a book to create a mirror image. In this example there isn't really evidence of ripple figure within the arching grain pattern, although there is evidence reversing grain between some of the interlocked growth rings. Slainte.


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## spanner48 (10 Nov 2021)

The sample you show certainly looks like classic fiddleback sycamore to me. Maybe best to ask some experienced luthiers?

As for the cause, I report what I was told in Woodwork classes at school in 1958. But perhaps knowledge has advanced since then? This research:









Growth performance and wood structure of wavy grain sycamore maple (Acer pseudoplatanus L.) in a progeny trial - Annals of Forest Science


• Key message Wavy grain, a rare figure type of wood, leads to highly priced timber in Acer pseudoplatanus L. The influence of this trait on growth performance and its causes are not known. Analyzed wavy and straight grain sycamore maple progenies show comparable growth performance in a field...




link.springer.com





suggests that it is genetic.


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## Sgian Dubh (10 Nov 2021)

spanner48 said:


> The sample you show certainly looks like classic fiddleback sycamore to me. Maybe best to ask some experienced luthiers?


I already have a pretty good handle on what fiddleback sycamore and maple look like, so I think I'll give the luthiers a miss for now, ha, ha. Foresters and loggers are quite adept at quickly spotting wavy grain or fiddleback figure in tree trunks, either still standing or felled - peeling a bit of bark off to below the cambium layer will reveal such figuring, which occurs in other wood species besides maples, including sycamore.



> As for the cause, I report what I was told in Woodwork classes at school in 1958. But perhaps knowledge has advanced since then? This research:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems likely that whoever told you about the underside of branch stems being the cause of ripple figure in a tree's stem was either guessing or perhaps just passing on something heard. In truth I can't imagine anyone, even back in 1958, would really think the near location of a branch could possibly lead to anything other than localised ripple figure simply because ripple or fiddleback figure can, as I've already mentioned, extend the full length and width of all or most of the boards in a saw log.

Many thanks for the link. I hadn't come across that particular study. I'm not a wood scientist but I do have quite a keen general interest in timber technology. It doesn't surprise me that the study comes to the somewhat tentative conclusion that genetics may have a part to play in the development of ripple figure. It seems possible that genetics may potentially have a role to play in all sorts of unusual figure and growth characteristics, such as interlocking grain, pomelle, quilted, bird's eye, and so on. On the whole though, it does seem no-one's yet been able to definitively describe* 'the'* cause for unusual growth patterns. Slainte.


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## IWW (10 Nov 2021)

Ah the dangers of guessing what a species of wood may be from a picture! It's interesting to note that most guessers were applying names of species more or less local & familiar to you. Discovering it's an African piece chucks a whole lot more possibilities into the guess-pot. It may well be 'real' teak (_Tectona grandis_) which is plantation grown in Africa, or a species that looks enough like teak to get the moniker (& there are quite a few around the world!). 

I live in a country where invaders from the northern hemisphere applied names of trees from "home" on the slightest of pretexts. The bark or leaves may bear a faint resemblance to a _Fraxinus sp._, or the wood to a _Quercus_ sp., and so we have all sorts of trees unrelated to each other, let alone the trees of the northern hemisphere, branded as "Ash" or "Oak"! And don't get me started on the confusion of names for grain patterns in the English-speaking world - we can't even agree _within _countries, let alone _between _them.... 

Whatever, it looks to me like you have a rather nice example of mid-20thC "Scandahoovian" furniture, Venny, in remarkably good condition for its age. It doesn't appera to need any major surgery (other than putting the left drawer back where it was intended, as already suggested). It's far too straight & true for its age to be solid wood (apart from the legs), so be very careful trying to 'fix' anything if you are not very sure of what you are doing.

It's your piece & you have to live with it - the undercarriage looks fine to my eyes, but if you don't like it, then you don't like it, at least it's easy to change that without touching the carcase. It seems to me that from the 50s to the 80s there was a gradual shift in preferences for undercarriage in this genre, from rather skinny round or elongated "lozenge"-shaped legs (often splayed), to straighter & eventually quite short & blocky, plain square legs (although James Krenov went t'other way!), A short, blocky set of legs could be made by someone without extensive cabinet-making skills (or tools). So in a way, you wouldn't be changing the style of your piece too radically by lowering it, just "doing an update"...

From the frontal pic, I can't see an easy way of lowering the existing undercarriage. The rails are on the top & bottom so one or the other has to go if you cut it down. I wouldn't touch the bottom of the structure, if you make that narrower in its current style it will affect stability. Cutting off the top means finding a new top rail because the existing piece will be too short to re-use, but at least it's out of sight & will be even moreso in a lowered version, so any wood that's 'close enough' would do the job. Or, just put the legs in the attic as suggested, & start from scratch.

I reckon one of the best bits of advice you've had so far is to live with it a while before doing anything other than a clean & polish. It's remarkable what grows on you (aided by a soupcon of procrastination) over time......


Ian


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## Woody2Shoes (11 Nov 2021)

IWW said:


> Ah the dangers of guessing what a species of wood may be from a picture! It's interesting to note that most guessers were applying names of species more or less local & familiar to you. Discovering it's an African piece chucks a whole lot more possibilities into the guess-pot. It may well be 'real' teak (_Tectona grandis_) which is plantation grown in Africa, or a species that looks enough like teak to get the moniker (& there are quite a few around the world!).
> 
> I live in a country where invaders from the northern hemisphere applied names of trees from "home" on the slightest of pretexts. The bark or leaves may bear a faint resemblance to a _Fraxinus sp._, or the wood to a _Quercus_ sp., and so we have all sorts of trees unrelated to each other, let alone the trees of the northern hemisphere, branded as "Ash" or "Oak"! And don't get me started on the confusion of names for grain patterns in the English-speaking world - we can't even agree _within _countries, let alone _between _them....
> 
> ...


What he said ...


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## sometimewoodworker (11 Nov 2021)

TRITON said:


> I would have thought it was ripple.
> If you look on the side edge of it closely you should see the grain in a wave pattern rather than straight.
> 
> It looks as it does due to refraction.


Isn’t it usually called chatoyance?
What is Chatoyance?


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## Droogs (11 Nov 2021)

I've always understood chatoyance to mean the that the wood is reflective. When you look at wood from with the grain direction and then along against the grain the level of chatoyance is very different. Just as with a velvet rug etc. The chatoyance has nothing to do with the actual grain growth pattern


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## Sgian Dubh (11 Nov 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Isn’t it usually called chatoyance? What is Chatoyance?


Below is an example of chatoyance. What you're looking at are the same features viewed from opposite ends. Indicated by the red arrow alongside the edge of a panel. Note how the specific ripple pointed at by the red arrow in the grain in the upper image looks dark, but viewed from the opposite direction in the lower image it looks light. Careful examination of other features should reveal similar reversals of light and dark. 

Admittedly this can be a bit tricky because the photographs are one above the other. It would be easier for you see what I'm saying if the two photographs were set side by side, but I don't know how to do that in this reply box. Sorry about that, but maybe a kindly moderator can fix it for me. It's not the end of the world if the arrangement of the snaps can't be modified though. Slainte.


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## Peri (12 Nov 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Nice workmanship in keeping the bottom grain lined up which makes me think the left drawer might be better on the right hand end of the other two.
> Left one out, other two move over.
> Cheers Andy



I agree with that - looking at how nicely the grain runs through the other fronts, the top left drawer is quite jarring.


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## VENNY (19 Nov 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Nice workmanship in keeping the bottom grain lined up which makes me think the left drawer might be better on the right hand end of the other two.
> Left one out, other two move over.
> Cheers Andy


Well spotted now I see it I can’t take my eyes off it. The middle draw is slightly taller inside than the other two. The other two are slightly wider than the middle one. Basically I tried moving them about and I can’t.


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## VENNY (19 Nov 2021)

House is a work in progress but it’s here and I’m very happy. I don’t think it needs much of any restoring. Maybe an oil just to tart it up a little. Bonus is it came with two original little trays and lots of curly wood on the inside. So nothing really to do so I’ve moved on to a new project. Restoring an old Ercol daybed.


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## toolsntat (19 Nov 2021)

VENNY said:


> Well spotted now I see it I can’t take my eyes off it. The middle draw is slightly taller inside than the other two. The other two are slightly wider than the middle one. Basically I tried moving them about and I can’t.


Whoops ! sorry I shouldn't have mentioned it


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