# Antikythera mechanism



## Mechanism Man

I'm sure that most of you good folks here have far better things to be doing than worrying about ancient Greek artifacts, and not many of you will be particularly familiar with the Antikythera Mechanism, and that's if you've ever heard of it at all.
So, for those not sad and lonely enough to know what I'm talking about, or for those that only have a vague recollection of this incredible device, it was, in a nutshell, a machine the size of a shoe box discovered 114 years ago in a 2100 year old Greek ship wreck that could accurately predict where in the heavens to look for all the major heavenly bodies known at the time. It included the apparent backward movement in the night sky - retrograde motion - for all the planets (the machine represents what can be seen looking out from Earth, rather than being a birds eye view of the galaxy like a traditional orrery), and it even went as far as showing the apparent speeding up and slowing down of the Moon's orbit. It's predictions were depicted on both sides of the box by pointers for the five known planets of the time (and of course the Sun and moon), and with time being measured on the opposite side with a spiral scale that spanned 235 months, after which time the pointer on this scale would have to be reset to month one again. Other pointers predicted likely eclipses, moon phases and measures of time. All this pre-dated the first gear driven clock by over 1000 years. Put simply, it was an incredible feat of engineering for it's time.
So why am I rambling on about it you may ask? Well after building many orreries over the past few years - all with scroll saw cut wooden gearing - I've finally got around to having a go at building one of these amazing machines myself, and again, it's being built with hand cut wooden gears. All the gearing has been worked out by minds far greater than mine, so with a little luck I shouldn't encounter too many problems, but if I pull it off I'll be the first person to actually physically build one of these devices with all the latest thinking rather than just computer model it for 2000 years - so I really hope that it works!
I'm not sure if anybody here will be particularly interested, but I thought I'd share my efforts anyhow, just in case.
I'll attach a photo or two tomorrow.
Dave.


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## Claymore

.......


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## Bryan Bennett

A very warm welcome Dave to the forum,looking forward to your pics.hop aboard.


Bryan


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## martinka

Welcome Dave. Definitely something I would like to see. Good luck with the project.


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## StevieB

Mechanism Man":13bt2mq1 said:


> ....if I pull it off I'll be the first person to actually physically build one of these devices with all the latest thinking rather than just computer model it for 2000 years - so I really hope that it works!



Lots of details on the web, including proposed gear layouts and the wikipedia page has a reproduction photo from a 2007 model - not quite sure you will be the first to build one for 2000 years I am afraid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

While it was indeed technologically astounding for its time, it appears that it was built assuming planets had circular rather than elliptical orbits and so wasn't particularly accurate!

Would be interested to see pics of your build - are you building it as a 1:1 scale replica or larger?

Steve


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## cusimar9

StevieB":5z1scrdy said:


> While it was indeed technologically astounding for its time, it appears that it was built assuming planets had circular rather than elliptical orbits and so wasn't particularly accurate!
> 
> Steve



Yes it took nearly 2 millennia for Johannes Kepler to formalise his theory of elliptical orbits, and a couple of centuries thereafter for Albert Einstein to refine it further. So the Greeks weren't doing bad.


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## boysie39

Welcome and best of luck with your project , I for one will be watching your posts and finding out about something I have never heard about before .


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## Ian down london way

Absolutely interested. 

I make wooden clocks (with wooden movements - and yes, sometimes they wouldn't go) - and I'm repairing one now. I've posted a couple of WIPs here, of wooden animations I've done. Mostly I use the plans from a guy in Hawaii (http://www.lisaboyer.com/Claytonsite/Claytonsite1.htm).

Please post a WIP, and do it as you go. As people have said to me here, its fun seeing the process, and the mistakes and bodges as well as when things go right first time (HA!).

I to am wondering about scale. 3 times? I can't believe you will be able to cut small enough teeth to be much smaller that that (even using home made ply from sandwiched vaneer, I couldn't go very small).

Very best of luck.


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## Mechanism Man

Evening chaps,

Thought that I'd better come back and add a bit more having started this off. 

You are quite right in saying that my machine will not be the first, but it will be the first to include this method of gearing for the planet drive system. Up until about two years ago nobody really knew how the original designer included the gearing for the 5 known planets at the time, mainly because the gearing for this section of the machine was simply lost and not recovered from the ship wreck. All the machines built so far (there are only about five anywhere in the world) have either missed out the planet gearing all together, or else the solution had been cumbersome at best. The latest research has produced an entirely new gear train which is elegant, 'blimmin clever, and actually fits within the known available space in the original machine and follows the techniques used throughout the rest of the mechanism. However, the new gearing has never actually been built - until now!

As for the accuracy, well the Ancient Greeks did indeed believe that the Earth was the centre of the solar system (apparently it's not), and yes, they also thought that the planets (and the Sun) move around the Earth in circular orbits (erm, they don't), so on the face of it they were never going to produce an accurate machine to predict anything because they had no idea how the solar system actually worked. So why does it? In short, it made no difference that they had got it all wrong, because the machine was simply based on 500 years of physical observations. They thought that at certain times the planets actually stopped and moved backwards in the heavens (we now call in retrograde motion), so that's what they modeled - the machine simply reflects what can be seen looking out from Earth - and it does it really accurately, irrespective of how the planets are really moving. The machine really doesn't care if the orbits are round, elliptical, or even square, it just shows what's going to happen without any real understanding of how it actually how it happens. If you really want to know why the Greeks thought that the planets speed up and show down, Google the word 'Epicycle' - it's all clear as mud...

Apparently I have to post four times before I can link to my photos in Photobucket, so I shall carry this on in another post....


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## Mechanism Man

Sorry - empty post - don't know how to delete it!


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## Mechanism Man

As for the scale of my version, it's just over one and a half times bigger than the original, and even then it's not very big. Some of the gears only have a pitch of 2.4mm, so from a scroll saw point of view you have to be a bit switched on and be concentrating when chopping up the gearing, but it seems to be working out ok so far with everything meshing as it should be. 
It's stretched me mentally quite a bit - I'm not used to actually thinking, especially since there are no proper plans to follow, so with the exception of the all important gear wheel counts, I'm having to make it up as I go along. I just hope that I can do it justice...
Right, by my reckoning, I should be able to post some photos now that I've made the posts... I hope...
So, here are the first few progress shots of the machine up 'till now. This represents about one month of work I guess, so it's not quick, but I'm getting there. Some of it needs to be re cut (the frames mainly), but it works so far at least. The photos show just the mechanism for the planet and sun pointers. This whole assembly will slowly rotate with the gears gently spinning within it, it should look great when it's done. The rest of the machine has yet to be started, so there is still lots to do - but at least I'm moving in the right direction!


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## Walney Col

Lovely gear cutting. I wish I could manage stuff that fine.

Col.


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## Claymore

..........


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## Mechanism Man

Just in case you all thought that I'd gotten bored and given up, well I'm still here and beavering away, I just haven't got anything solid to show you. Progress is still good, but I just had a little bit of a two steps back to make one step forward situation to get through before starting the next unit. 
After having a good play with the machine as it stood in the last photo, I came to the conclusion that although the gear work was all fine, the frames were just not good enough.
Unfortunately, when I first fitted the gearing to the frame work, I got myself very confused as to which gear went where and so drilled a few holes that should never have been drilled. I could fill these, but they would always be visible, and if the jobs worth doing... 
More important than that though, I also didn't leave enough material to fit decent size spacer poles, my preference is for 6 mm wooden dowels, rather than the 3mm metal rods currently fitted which was all I had room for at the time - changing them will make fixing everything together so much easier.
Lastly, the purpose of the gear teeth running around the outside of the bottom frame is to provide the main input drive for the entire machine via the winding handle. I've decided to lose this in favour of a smaller gear that will be driven by a worm gear - both to be fitted later - so all three new frames can have smooth edges. 
So while it's still at a relatively early stage in the build I have opted to cut three new frames and re-fit the existing gearing to them instead, it's a bit of re-work that's worth doing I think.
I'll hopefully have this all finished in the next day or two, and this time I'm staining and varnishing the bits that require it, as well as fixing all the gearing in properly so that I'll end up with the first properly finished unit.
That's the plan anyhow...





Slightly beefier frame design before cutting.


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## DiscoStu

Wow! Nothing more to say than that!


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## cusimar9

Excellent work, keep it up!


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## bugbear

That's truly great!

Can I ask - how did you choose the thickness of the gears? - they're thicker than is "obvious", and given your experience
I'm sure you didn't just guess.

BugBear


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## jonluv

What a fantastic piece of work. ---- a very skilled scroll sawyer


John


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## ColeyS1

I watched the film 'hugo' the other week- this project instantly made me think of it . I admire your patience


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## monkeybiter

Very nice hand work, intriguing looking overall. You'll need a display case at the end of this.


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## Samfire

Amazing, I can only admire your dedication. I can't even pronounce the name of the mechanism never mind even thinking of cutting those gears.
Sam


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## bugbear

The world has some wonderful people:

http://acarol.woz.org/antikythera_mechanism.html

BugBear


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## Samfire

Great piece of work, I can't wait to see the finished item.
Sam


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## Mechanism Man

Sorry for the stoppage of recent progress reports on this, work, life, and Christmas are getting in the way at the moment - hopefully normal service will resume very soon!


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## Mechanism Man

Well after a few months doing other bits and bobs I'm finally back at it again.
So, here's where I'm now at. The rebuild to replace the ropey frames is now done, and everything runs great (with the excepting of two gears that are binding a little, so they'll need a bit of attention at some point).
I've attached a few more photos, and at the end is a YouTube link to quick film of it being spun in its makeshift frame. The pointers are also temporary (cocktail sticks!), but they do a good job of showing the weird backwards and forwards retrograde motion of the planets in the film. 
So I reckon I'm about one third of the way through it now, so lots more still do - but it's getting there! One bit at a time - one bit at a time...























Antikythera mechanism planetary unit.: http://youtu.be/G60GOw5FCUw


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## monkeybiter

This looked like a mammoth task until I looked at your YT orrery ! 

Excellent work and perseverance.


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## martinka

Gobsmacked at the both the Antikythera and the orrery.

The Earth on your orrery looks familiar. Is it pinched from one of the magazine kits, or did you make that as well?


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## artie

Much as I love the shed and workshop WIPs. This makes a very pleasant and interesting change.

Very very nice job.


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## Mechanism Man

Thanks all! Being a bit different is half the reason I'm on here, I just wanted to show that our humble fret saw can do more than just cut simple shapes - you can go on to make some pretty groovy things with those shapes!
And yes Martin, I make the orrery planets as well. I made the decision early on that I would make everything that I possibly could, and apart from anything else the only commercially available planets were horrible and generally plastic - and nobody sells Uranus....
They start as as solid wooden balls and then I print and hand cut paper strips to create each planet. Scaling them to the perfect size for the wooden globes was the biggest headache, but having made so many over the years I've pretty much got the technique down to a fine art now. Still tedious though... especially for the Moon, which is only 1 cm tall...
Here is Jupiter's paper pattern - it's easier to show than it is to explain:


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## bugbear

Mechanism Man":13iykzgv said:


> Here is Jupiter's paper pattern - it's easier to show than it is to explain:



It's too early in the morning to post gory pictures!

BugBear


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## Woodmonkey

That's a thing of beauty, you sure must have a lot of patience, well done!


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## martinka

Mechanism Man":37relktc said:


> And yes Martin, I make the orrery planets as well.



After I posted I realised it was a bit silly saying it looked familiar. :roll: 



> Here is Jupiter's paper pattern - it's easier to show than it is to explain:



Nice job. My sister would be impressed with that, she takes a lot of photos of Jupiter and its moons.


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## Mechanism Man

Hello all, 
I've been back in the business of gear cutting again - lots, and lots, of gear cutting...
Thankfully I'm almost finished now, although the great big 223 tooth gear I did have to cut three times before I got it right. Never had issues before - just had to happen on the biggest gear that I've ever cut though - doh!
I'm at the stage now where I'm setting out the gearing for the main part of the machine so that I can cut the supporting frames - and two big 5 rovolution spiral cut dials, should be fun!?!


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## Claymore

.......


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## deema

Phenomenal, brilliant, superb. I'm envious of your ability. Please post more.


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## bugbear

Mechanism Man":u5o3d03r said:


> Hello all,
> I've been back in the business of gear cutting again - lots, and lots, of gear cutting...
> Thankfully I'm almost finished now, although the great big 223 tooth gear I did have to cut three times before I got it right. Never had issues before - just had to happen on the biggest gear that I've ever cut though - doh!
> I'm at the stage now where I'm setting out the gearing for the main part of the machine so that I can cut the supporting frames - and two big 5 rovolution spiral cut dials, should be fun!?!



The coward in me would have wanted a bit more framing inside the large wheels for rigidity and/or strength. Awesome cutting skills!

BugBear


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## Mechanism Man

Wow - thanks all! I just hope that it all works when it's finished - it will have been a pretty pointless 18 months otherwise! 
Hi Bugbear - yes I see what you mean about the lack of material on the biggest wheels, but they are actually much beefier and robust than you'd think. The ply I'm using is 6mm, so it's pretty thick and chunky and basically solid as a rock and 100% warp free. The aim is to make the whole machine as open and skeletal as possible so that you can peak inside and try to see how the heck it all works! I have absolutely no intention of resorting to using perspex in its construction as two or three others have done in the past, but am going down the route of making both the wheels and frames with as many holes in as possible, yet still make it look attractive as apposed to simply an educational display piece. It's gotta look pretty! 
Latest cutting progress photo is attached below. So many spokes... So little time...






P.S. - Claymore, the Hadron Collider project is going to have to wait until after I've finished Babbage's Difference Engine...


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## AES

It seems I missed the beginnings of your post Mechanism Man, but I've now been all through it.

I can only echo the others in posting my admiration for such excellent (and more!) work, dedication, patience, and overall skill. A real motivator for dumbos like me!

Thanks for posting.

Krgds
AES


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## DTR

Amazing!


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## Mechanism Man

All gearing - cut! Well that was a job and a half... Hopefully I've not rushed any and got them all right first try, only time will tell. 
So just a bit of sanding on the last few that still have the paper patterns fixed to them, and then it's varnish time. More repetative work - yay....
More soon when I start on the frames.


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## Mechanism Man

It's getting bigger - not quite running - but almost! (and yes, I do know that it looks a little like a 1950's space rocket - just a happy coincidence - honest!).


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## martinka

Amazing, I can't wait to see it running.


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## Mcluma

Beautifull


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## AndyT

I too am gobsmacked by the precision of your cutting on this project. 

Can I just ask, have you rigged up some sort of dividing engine to rotate each gear the right small amount, cut it and move on? Or are you really sticking on a paper pattern and just cutting along the line, freehand? It looks as if it's the latter, which makes it all even more impressive!


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## AES

I too have exactly the same question as Andy T - even when I enlarge your gear pix (23rd April) they still look absolutely immaculate! PLEEZ say you used some sort of "mechanical contrivance" to cut them, otherwise bozos like me stand nil chance of ever being able to cut gears "manually" and may as well give up now!

Krgds
AES


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## Mechanism Man

Thanks chaps... er... um... yes - they are all cut free hand - honest. And yes, it is simply a case of sticking the piece of pre-printed paper onto the wood and then, well, cutting them out!
I do have a method though which seems to work for me. This is how I tackle the problem which works pretty much every time. 

1) Pre print your gear pattern - just type 'gear generator' into Google to find a great free to use one. This will let you set the tooth spacing in mm, number of teeth etc. Print the pattern with all the extra printed bits turned off apart from the gear itself, spokes if you want them, and the gears center. Don't print the measuring grid, line of tooth contact and all the other bits - turn 'em off!

2) Pre-drill your gears center hole to the correct diameter for your shaft - drilling a hole in a piece of blank wood is easy - drilling a hole dead center of a gear that just took you an hour to cut is really, really hard... I use 6mm birch ply by the way - perfect for nice, stable, gear cutting. 

3) Rough cut out your disc of wood a little bigger than the diameter of the gear pattern - obviously with your pre-drilled hole at it's approximate center.

4) A clever bit - use a glue stick to stick the pattern to the wood, but hold the wood and patten up to a spot lamp so that you can see that the center cross of the pattern is exactly at the center of the hole in the wood. I always mount my blank at this stage onto a spindle and give it spin - it should spin perfectly, but if the pattern isn't centered properly it will wobble, so adjust it until it's near perfect. Trying to get non centered gears to mesh is no fun...

5) Cut round the patten, just touching the tips of the teeth as you go so you end up with a perfectly sized disc with a hole at it's center. 

6) Cut down the right side of each tooth. I try and remove most of the line whilst doing this and stop just as you are cutting into the bottom line between the teeth. You should get into a bit of a rythm with this - cut - rotate - cut - rotate - etc, etc...

7) Almost there. Next cut down the left hand side of each tooth - again removing most of the pattern line - but this time when you get to the bottom do a sharp turn and link this new cut to the one on the other side and so remove the waste between the teeth. Easy! Use a relatively fine blade and it's not too difficult. Again, you should get into a bit of a rythm as you go.

8) Sit back and admire your gear! All you have do now is make it a friend...

Machine position is important too. I have the cutting table at mid chest level so that I can lean in very close to what I'm cutting, my eyes can't be more than 6 or 8 inches from the blade - you can't be accurate if you can't see what you're cutting. I also use a pair of really magnifying glasses for the small gears, although I'm not normally a glasses wearer at all. If what you are cutting looks really big and clear you stand a much better chance of getting it right. Oh, and don't rush! I have the speed on my machine turned down to about 1/3 maximum. I can cut a 64 tooth gear in about 20 minutes I guess, so it's not too time consuming really. All you really need is the desire to do it and a bit of patience. Blade choice? No idea what I use - but they are about 26 - 28 tpi I think and come in bundles of 50 from eBay, and I use a sub £100 Rexon scroll saw - so no excuses along the lines of 'My machine isn't good enough for that!'. I was cutting larger gears successfully on a £30 Clarke single speed machine not long ago (who needs a Hegner anyway...).

Anyhow, give it a go - you might be surprised at how easy it is...

(P.S. the smallest I've cut by necessity for this machine so far has a 1.5mm tooth spacing as I remember - that's a bit of a challenge, so I'd recommend 4 or 5 mm to start - have fun! )


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## nadnerb

I wish I had your patience ....and accuracy, lovely work
Regards
Brendan


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## Mechanism Man

Well you've definately got the skill, you're plaque proves that - so have a crack at a clock maybe. How hard could it possibly be...?
Have a look at Clayton Boyers designs - they are brilliant. And like everything we make here, it's just one cut at a time. 
;-)


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## bugbear

Mechanism Man":3pscywxy said:


> 1) Pre print your gear pattern - just type 'gear generator' into Google to find a great free to use one. This will let you set the tooth spacing in mm, number of teeth etc. Print the pattern with all the extra printed bits turned off apart from the gear itself, spokes if you want them, and the gears center. Don't print the measuring grid, line of tooth contact and all the other bits - turn 'em off!



I'm assuming you mean this one:

http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html

Coming from a DTP/Print background I have a couple of comments, not on his gears, but printing 'em accurately.

His measuring check marks are the full 210mm width of the page. Since many printers won't quite print to the edge, this is not universally good.
Further, he only provides width marks, not depth marks, and whilst printers may be pretty darn accurate, it is common for the width:depth ratio to be a little off (so printed circles become printed ellipses).

He does suggest checking the printed gears carefully :_" Its best to check that the diameter is consistent along the vertical, horizontal, and diagonal to be sure there is no distortion. "_

But doesn't have any suggestions should these checks fail.

I think an answer is to print the gears to a PDF "printer"; these are readily available for download, and instead of the data going to a physical printer, you get a PDF file on your computer.

This means you have an editable (via e.g. Inkscape) vector representation of the gears. If you add known width and depth lines (but not right to the edge) you can make a test print.

Use measurement from the test print to scale (again, Inkscape of similar) the drawing, separately in width and depth if needed, so that the final print should be perfect (as long as the errors on your printer are consistent).

This complexity is probably not needed for large teeth on small gears, but if you're pushing the limits, it might be rather helpfui.

BugBear


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## AES

Thanks Mechanism Man for a very clear description. I'll be trying it out soon (ish). Interesting tip about drilling the centre hole BEFORE applying the pattern - so far I've drilled the hole (on simple wheels for toys) after applying the pattern, but that drilling op can tear the pattern a bit at the centre.

Thanks also to bugbear for the very useful notes about printing. I haven't yet tried any gears but have noticed some printer distortions when using Steve Good's oval key ring software - I set my printer to 600 dpi and "print at 100%" but, for example, an oval showing an overall length of 2.5 inches on the screen actually prints at just about 2 inches long on the paper. Not a big problem when you know about it, and easy to fix with an oval, but could be mighty embarrassing on a gear wheel.

Krgds
AES


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## Mechanism Man

Hi Bugbear, 
Yes, you are absolutely right, if the X and Y calibration of your printer is a little off then you can run into problems. My home printer is fine up to a point, but the large gear on this machine has 223 teeth and is only about 18cm in diameter - so the teeth are small and the error on my printer was enough to make me get this one and some of the other larger gears printed on my big Xerox printer at work which has perfect calibration. However, as you say, unless your gear has teeth of less than around 4mm between the tips then most modern home printers should be fine, but do some test prints first to check. The print to PDF trick sounds great, I wouldn't have thought of that, and I work in a print shop! 
Also the link you posted is for the gear generator I use. You can set the page size to less than 210mm (the short side width of an A4 sheet) to take into account the unprinted 4 or 5 mm around the edge of the page - it's a very well thought out program. 
Thanks for the pointers - it might save folk wasting lots of time. Oval gears - not much use unfortunately for most applications...
Take care all.


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## Mechanism Man

Hi folks, 
I'm still here, but have been momentarily diverted by a quick turnaround comission for a nine planet orrery for a chap in New York.
So the past month or so has seen me wading through cutting out 48 gears, and I'm now just starting the frames. This would normally be a four month build, but I'm having to condense it into two and have it delivered by September 25th.
What could possibly go wrong...?


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## AES

Cor, blimey Mechanism Man, what lovely work! I think we need a separate sub-section here, entitled something like ".... and MM's work"!

AES


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## bugbear

Mechanism Man":1e3mjqim said:


> ... a quick turnaround comission for a nine planet orrery ...



:shock: :shock: :shock: 
:shock: :shock: :shock: 
:shock: :shock: :shock: 

BugBear


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## martinka

Looking at all those gears for the Orrery, is it going to end up like the Eaglemoss Orrery. I built this one about 6 or 7 years ago, though I didn't have to make the parts, or it would never have got done.


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## Mechanism Man

Hi Martina, 
No, mine does the same thing (planets orbiting the sun etc), but the design is very different from the Eaglemoss version. They've gone for an unusually tall and skinny gear train - not really to my taste if I'm honest. However, I was suitably impressed with it when the part work magazine first came out to have a go at building my own, so I can't have disliked it that much!
The photo shows mine as it stands, with all the frames being cut and ready for sanding and staining. Still lots to do...


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## Mechanism Man

Assembly has now started in earnest and is going really well so far. Just hope that the rest of the build goes as smoothly - the 20th September deadline is getting really close now... :-/


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## Mechanism Man

Great progress today, just hope that it continues!


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## Mechanism Man

The gear box is finished! I finally got the lid on late last night - they're is still a lot to do, but that's a big hurdle out of the way. 
Top mechanism next, and 8 days till the deadline. Gulp.
































More soon.


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## AES

Well MM, my gob is absolutely smacked! IMHO your work is on a completely different level to ordinary morals like me.

Thanks for posting, and good luck with that 20th deadline.

AES


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## Droogs

Looking really impressive MM, can't wait to see a vid of it complete and doing its thing


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## Eric The Viking

Really enjoyed this thread (not a scrollsaw person so only just happened across it). 
It's beautiful work and quite inspiring. 

Thanks so much for posting.

E.


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## Mechanism Man

Well after many nights of burning the midnight oil it's finally finished, running, and ready to send. The planets on this are just unfinished wooden balls as that is what the new owner has requested.
All the time taken at the beginning to get the gearing cut well and accurately seems to have paid off as it runs beautifully. This isn't always the case as some I have built have really fought me in the final stages, so I'm relieved that this one just works without having to shout and swear at it...
Anyhow, here are a few photos and a video link of the finished machine (in fact there were a couple of finishing jobs still to do when the photos were taken, but nothing major). 
Scroll saws - best tools in the world!






















https://youtu.be/qPKRZ4OZuPE

I'll be back with news of the Antikythera build when I've caught my breath and seen my family for a while.
Happy scrolling folks.


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## lanemaux

I realize that there are probably words , and yet I remain utterly speachless.


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## martinka

I have a metal orrery that came in kit form, so I have some appreciation of the work that went into this, but I am still well and truly gobsmacked. Amazing.


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## AES

Well, I too find myself lost for words - "blimey"!

Congratulations Sir.

AES


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## DTR

That is amazing


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## Jamesc

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 
Fantastic work, thanks for sharing


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## nadnerb

I can only say "wow!!"
Regards
Brendan


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## Mechanism Man

Thanks for the kind comments folks - they are very much appreciated. It's not the most social of activities sitting in a shed and cutting out endless gears!
Anyhow, thought that it was high time that I got back to building the original point of the thread.
Well after the stressful two month orrery build it's nice to get back to something with no deadline. So in the the time since sending the orrery off I've managed to get the Antikythera actually running - not to the point where it needs no more work, but well enough to know that it'll actually run as it should, which up to this point had always been a bit debatable.
So below are a couple of photos of the completed gearing, and a couple of YouTube links to it merrily spinning away (with a little help from me).

https://youtu.be/iaAAgGNKhbc

https://youtu.be/1RJDMeesFKE











More soon. 
Dave.


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## Jamesc

Great to see you back on this, still watching enthralled


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## bugbear

Did you do the pin-and-slot mechanism? I was "fairly impressed" by the Antikythera mechanism
(the original, not your marvellous interpretation) but it's just gear ratios - any amazement
should be reserved for the astronomy, not the technology.

Then I saw the detail of the pin-and-slot non-linear gears...

:shock: :shock: :shock: 
:shock: :shock: :shock: 
:shock: :shock: :shock: 

EDIT: just watched the video - pin-and-slot present and correct!

BugBear


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## hagdahuk

Impressive!!!! That's a really beautiful work!!


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## Claymore

.........


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## AES

Mechanism Man (Dave):

I've now watched your videos. With the greatest possible respect, and in the nicest possible way, you're completely mad mate! The yanks are always shouting "awesome" but your work definitely DOES deserve that accolade.

Thanks for posting.

AES


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## bodgerbaz

Absolutely amazing. Well done Dave.


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## martinka

I just watched the videos. Stunning work.

For anyone interested there's a 1 hour program all about the antikythera mechanism on youtube. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZXjUqLMgxM


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## Mechanism Man

Afternoon all, 
Progress is still painfully slow, but after several months of quietly beavering away here is a link to a film of the basic mechanics of the machine actually running with a handle. If you want to know why the pointers are doing such weird things have a read of the blurb that goes with the film. 

https://youtu.be/Ke_wspU5748

Having got it going more or less successfully I very quickly realised that it would need a considerable redesign before I could actually finish it, mainly because the output dials would not fit onto the frames as I'd made them, so it was back to the drawing board (literally!) to come up with a design that would work for the internal gubbins as well as the external wizzy pointy bits. So below is what I've come up with - freshly cut and hastily cobbled together for photographic purposes.
















The photos show the front and back of the machine to show the differences between the two. Both front and back will carry their own very different displays hence the different shapes. 
I ran into a bit of a hitch having cut them though, my drill press is not big enough to allow me to drill the centre holes in the frames as it's only got a 10.5cm throat depth (about standard for most £100 machines I have discovered). Unfortunately my frames are close to 13cm to the centre of each circle, so I've had to splash out on a shiny new drill press with a much deeper capacity. It's always nice to have an excuse for a shiny new toy, and I have wanted one for a while, but I just wish that I'd worked this out sooner! 
The size of the frames is very much a product of the size of the gearing that they're going to contain and the dials that will be fitted onto them, so going smaller wasn't really an option, so I guess I was always going to have to get a bigger machine. 
Right, I'm off to start cutting a new batch of gears whilst I wait for the postman.
Until next time ladies and gents.


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## AES

=D> =D> =D> 

Blimey Mechanism Man (Dave?)! That is well above & beyond excellent work. My flabber is well & truly garsted.

Thanks for posting.

{BTW, I won't say a word to Mrs, M.M, 'onest, (hammer) but did you know that with a lot of drill presses it's perfectly possible to swing the drill head/motor assembly off to one side, so allowing drilling of work pieces considerably larger than the throat dimension seems to allow at first sight? Of course, not all of them will do that  ).

AES


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## Spindle

AES":2531vmaa said:


> =D> =D> =D>
> 
> 
> {BTW, I won't say a word to Mrs, M.M, 'onest, (hammer) but did you know that with a lot of drill presses it's perfectly possible to swing the drill head/motor assembly off to one side, so allowing drilling of work pieces considerably larger than the throat dimension seems to allow at first sight? Of course, not all of them will do that  ).
> 
> AES



Hi

That's interesting - how can you increase the throat when rotating about the column? depth yes but throat?

Regards Mick


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## Mechanism Man

Yes, I think that there could be throat depth and drill height confuzzlement going on here - my issue was definately throat depth - but money has been spent (with my better half's approval I might add), so either way the problem is solved! 
I went for an AH16RD model from Axminster Tools - not cheap but should do the job for many years to come I hope!


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## Aggrajag

Astounding, simply astounding.


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## Claymore

..........


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## Bm101

I watched the BBC documentary about the mechanism that was shown fairly recently and was amazed. Seeing this, I'm amazed again. Thanks for sharing. I think you might need to revise your signature though...


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## AES

Sorry if my "nomenclature" is up the chuff gents!

The sketch below shows what I mean - if the drilling head of the pillar drill swivels (and/or the table swivels) as shown, in one way it doesn't actually alter the throat dimension, but it does mean that by means of a big enough sub table/support, and careful arrangement of the work piece, it is often possible to "fiddle" the drilling of a job where at least in one dimension of the job is larger than the "throat" - which BTW, I've seen quoted as either the distance between the centre of the drill table and the centre of the chuck/drill, OR as the distance between the column and the centre of the drilling table (see the sketch).

Anyway, the comment was only made in jest, so sorry if I created any confusion, NOT my intention - I'm the last person who would try to stand in the way of a bloke getting a shiny new bit of kit, especially when he produces work like MM (Dave)!









AES

P.S. And again, it's probably just the names I've learnt, but on a DP, to me the word "depth" only means how deep a hole goes into a work piece - it's got nothing to do with the size of the work piece, or the position of the hole from one or more edges of the work piece. Sorry, I guess that there are just different ways of naming "the same" thing!

AES


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## Mechanism Man

I think I see what you mean...
Throat distance is basically (at least in my head) the distance between the front edge of the column and the centre of the chuck (and hence the drill bit I guess). Unfortunately it would take a welder or a really big saw to adjust my current machine to make this any bigger.
Doh...
Thanks for the tip though - thankfully it was far too late (even if had been successful) to avoid the purchase of shiny new things! 
Cheers,
Dave.


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## Alexam

What's left to say. A truly remarkable work in wood and to have spent so0 much time getting to where you are is quite outstanding. =D> =D> =D> Well done and than you for showing this.

Now then when are you planningto send out copies of the plans? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Malcolm


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## beganasatree

Hi Dave,
I have this post pop up over the last year but the title meant nothing to me so I have never looked at it until tonight,but I have just read it from start to now,and all that I can say is WOW I AM ABSOLUTELY GOBSMACKED WITH YOUR WORK,PATIENCE AND PERSEVERANCE.

Peter.


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## bugbear

On the drilling, many people have used small drill stands clamped down onto the workpiece
(as opposed to the workpiece being on the drill table).

This is common when drilling dog holes for workbenches, for example, and gives unlimited reach.

The problem (in your case) is that the hole would then have the precision, or lack of
it, of a portable drill stand.

BugBear


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## Mechanism Man

Hi folks, 
Thank you all for the positive comments - they are all (as always) very much appreciated. The thread on the forum that's discussing craft groups really hits the nail on the head as it mentions this being a very solitary pass time, so it's nice to know that somebody out there likes what I'm up to. A meeting group in Norfolk would be great, it would just be a case of finding the time! 
You're right Bugbear, there are ways around the drilling problem, but accuracy is most definately the issue. I set my shiney new drill up this evening, and it's great, but it's also HUGE!!! I don't think that throat capacity will ever be a problem again. The new machine will cope with a piece of work 44cm deep - but I now need a bigger shed....


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## Penny

HOLY COW!!

That is some amazing work there Dave. Really impressed. And a little depressed as I couldn't hope to create anything as magnificent as that.


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## Rhyolith

Mechanism Man":3le6v2z2 said:


> .... a meeting group in Norfolk would be great, it would just be a case of finding the time


 I live near Norwich (In the summer at the moment), I would be interested in something like this to learn more see more etc... though I am no where near this level :shock: Great work! Very impressive project!


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## Mechanism Man

Hello all, 
I've not been bombarding the board with posts recently as I haven't wanted to bore you good people stupid. It's still not finished, but after several months of quietly beavering away whenever I could steal the odd 10 minutes I've finally cut the last tooth of the last gear wheel - ok, there are a few spokes still to cut, but no more teeth! Just in case any of you are wandering, there are 52 gears in total, with 3181 teeth - with two cuts pet tooth...
The next few days will hopefully see me finish the last few spoke cut outs, and then I can sand and varnish the last batch before the fun of assembly can start in earnest.
I have a self imposed deadline of mid November (I'm supposed to be talking about the machine in front of a group of students in Birmingham University), and do you know what? I might just make! 
Below are some photos of progress and what amounts to a kit of parts for an Antikythera Mechanism. Groovy.
More soon I hope. 
Dave.

Photo taken this evening of lots of parts:





Little gears:





New improved planet unit:





Gears all marked out, pre drilled, and ready for the scroll saw:


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## Claymore

........


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## Phil Pascoe

Brilliant! Absolutely amazing! =D> =D>


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## Walney Col

Wow. Some of those teeth are incredibly small, I'm both envious of your eyesight AND blown away by your patience!

Col.


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## happymadison1978

Absolutely blown away! Looks incredible.

Stephen.


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## bugbear

Walney Col":1yype48r said:


> Wow. Some of those teeth are incredibly small, I'm both envious of your eyesight AND blown away by your patience!
> 
> Col.



I was going to say that surely (to mesh) all the teeth must be the same size, but on reflection, that's only true of gear _pairs_.

Gears on the same shaft could readily have different size teeth, and (as you say) some of them are very small.

BugBear


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## martinka

I am fascinated just by few gears on my lathe when set up for screw cutting, so I'd probably go into a trance watching this in operation. 

I'm always amazed at some of the quality stuff that gets shown on here. I wish more people would show what they make on their scroll saw.


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## AES

Mind blowing! And Martinka's right, I for one would sit there for hours watching the wheels go round once you post the video - just like I do on my little lathe too.

Superb work, thanks for posting, and good luck with your Uni lecture.

AES


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## Aggrajag

I've a feeling that this will hit the news when it's completed, given the amount of work and that it's also a historical reproduction.

I hope it does.


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## Stanleymonkey

Also Wow


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## Mechanism Man

All gears cut and varnished - let assembly begin!


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## Claymore

.......


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## bugbear

Aggrajag":2t23z6a8 said:


> I've a feeling that this will hit the news when it's completed, given the amount of work and that it's also a historical reproduction.
> 
> I hope it does.



It's a (marvellous) re-implementation, not a reproduction - IIRC someone has already done a museum grade reproduction.

BugBear


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## Mechanism Man

Sorry all - been away for a little while and have had way too much to do to look at the forum. 
Hi Bugbear - hmm, yes, 'Marvellous re-implimentation' - I'll take that - thank you! There are several working replicas in museums around the world, but none yet that have the full planet pointer display - and there's only about three of those that I'm aware of that have been built by anybody else. They're still quite rare and certainly not in the public eye...
And as for Corian Brian, will I've heard of it but never had anything to do with it, and I have no idea even where to get it from! Mr Google seemed to think it was mainly used for work tops - a bit more research needed me thinks. Thanks for the thought though - I'll definately look into it. 
Anyhow, I've started fitting the gears now, and so far it has gone (..almost..) faultlessly which makes me think that the extra time spent scrolling the gears and getting them accurate has paid off with an easy assembly. Just hope it continues 'cause there's lots that can go wrong with this next bit. 
More soon.


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## powertools

What to say this project is just incredible.


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## Aggrajag

I can't wait, it looks phenomenal.


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## Mechanism Man

Finding spare time is always a problem, but most of the main gear box gearing is now finally fitted and working. Next job is to fix the gearing to the shafts to prevent slippage, and then it's on to fitting the second frame (which is also the front of the machine) to properly locate the other ends of the shafts. After that I can fit the big planet drive unit to the back of the machine (which I've already built) and then the rear frame to hold it all in place. It'll probably need some feet pretty soon as well...
However, I think that I'm getting there at last - just got to keep the momentum going!






More soon.


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## Mechanism Man

Not finished by a long shot - but it's now in more or less one piece and it works! Happiness is 57 spinning wooden gears. Almost ready to start predicting an eclipse or two!


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## Claymore

....


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## Mechanism Man

Oh yes - as soon as it's done I'll post a video of it doing it's thing.
Can't wait!


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## bugbear

Some well deserved fame, back in April;  

http://hackaday.com/2016/04/27/wooden-a ... greatness/

BugBear


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## Claymore

........


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## Bm101

I meet enough 'properly' thick people in life to feel I'm alright. Mensa is probably writing my invite compared to them. In reality I'm pushing the average, possibly at my best. Then you see some things and you think, God, I'm a bit of Div after all. Thanks MM. I will always look forward to these updates. As fascinating as always.
The time and effort, the planning and discipline, the knowledge and the skills to put it into practice. I think, what you're making is as close to the definition of Art in it's true sense as is possible.


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## Claymore

.......


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## Bm101

It's all Greek to me too Claymore. :|


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## AES

+1 to all the above congratulatory posts MM. Personally I'm not sure if your fantastic work inspires me to try and do better myself, or if it just depresses me enough to give up and start something like stamp collecting  

=D> =D> =D> 

Thanks for posting, and sincere congratulations for a piece of "work" that stands head and shoulders above what ordinary people would expect to see coming from a scroll saw.

AES


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## Mechanism Man

Wow - thanks everybody - I think that I'm possibly blushing...
As I've probably said before, my only real attribute is patience, and the ability to cut out a reasonably accurate shape - and a lot of you out there appear to be much better scrollers than me. So I guess that all I've done that nobody else tends to do is take lots of separate shapes and put them together into a much bigger whole.
I have no formal training in anything remotely academic. I spent 12 years in the RAF as an armourer - traditionally thought of as the knuckle dragging low brain power aircraft trade - and for the past 15 years I've worked in a very busy photography shop, strapped to a computer, editing photos of dogs, cats, babies and family holidays each and every day. Yay.
So everything I build I build because the subjects are a little on the unusual side and nobody told me that they weren't possible with hand cut scroll saw gears, and when they did tell me that what I was trying wasn't really possible I was just too stubborn (and possibly obsessed in the case of the Antikythera Mechanism!) to listen, so did it anyway. 
Go on folks - buy a clock plan - cut some gears. You may find that it's easier than you think! Go on AES, I dare you - it certainly beats stamp collecting! 
Happy scrolling folks. Another update soon.


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## Scrollerman

Awesome work Mechanism Man and if I remember correctly, you previously stated your, '*weapon of choice is a Rexon VS4003A*'.
That makes it even more awesome as it shows what can be achieved on a relatively cheap scrollsaw.
Knowing that you are building such a complex mechanism with a budget saw will help newcomers to scrolling decide on what to buy.
But....It's your amazing skill using a scrollsaw that is creating this work of art !
The point I'm making here is that any scrollsaw can make a work of art if the person using it is skilled.
Buying a high-end saw does not automatically give you skill....you have to work at it, progress and learn from your mistakes.
The work displayed here by Mechanism Man is possibly the finest I have seen anywhere on this forum and rightly so ! =D>


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## AES

Scrollerman said, QUOTE: The point I'm making here is that any scrollsaw can make a work of art if the person using it is skilled.
Buying a high-end saw does not automatically give you skill....you have to work at it, progress and learn from your mistakes.
The work displayed here by Mechanism Man is possibly the finest I have seen anywhere on this forum and rightly so ! =D> UNQUOTE:

I entirely agree with your point Scrollerman, as is so often the case, "having the kit" does not necessarily lead to success. Mechanism Man's work proves that beyond doubt.

But I would add that having a saw where you don't have a constant struggle not only makes for a much more pleasant experience (you even find yourself WANTING to use the thing just for a quick practice every time you see it), but also does help with accuracy as your skill improves to the point where, for example, cutting a truly smooth curve without bumps to sand out afterwards becomes almost second nature. (I'm hoping to reach that point one day myself!)  

All power to your elbow (and guiding hand) Mechanism Man.

Happy New Year.

AES


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## Mechanism Man

Thank you both, but my work is definately not the best here - there is some stunning work being shown, however, thanks for the compliment! 
In truth, I've used a top end Hegner a couple of times and I have to admit they are very nice - very orange too, which is nice. Was it better than my Rexon? Possibly. Did it enable me to do anything that I couldn't do equally well on my Rexon? Erm, no. I certainly wouldn't pay an extra £490 for one just to do what I was already doing. And I do spend many, many hours day in front of mine on a regular basis - the speed is easily controllable (slow is good), vibration is minimal and not a problem, and I cut everything from gear wheels and frames like on this current machine, to small fine fretwork lockets. 
I am sure that the top end Hegners and Axminster machines are wonderful, but for most people, most of the time a speed controllable machine for around £150 will do just fine, and will work for many years.
The photo below is of the front face of an Eagle Locket I made as a commission a few years ago (not really my taste, but it was an interesting project) cut on my trusty Rexon - first attempt - no problems.







Folks - you really don't need the best saw to do nice work and have lots of fun - you just need lots of practice and the ability to not worry too much when your straight lines initially look like anything other than straight lines... 
Happy scrolling.


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## AES

Lovely piece of cutting MM - as per your usual, very high standard.

Yup it's "practice, practice, practice" all the way - yet another reason to value your work so highly when one realises exactly what lies behind it (some sort of clock has been on my "roundtoit" list for a long time. I'll get there one day).

Happy New Year

AES


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## Mechanism Man

Happy new year to you too. I'm hoping that it'll bring more workshop time than 2016!
And yes - as I said before, build a clock, you'll never look back! 
All the best, 
Dave.


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## Claymore

.......


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## Claymore

.......


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## NazNomad

Brian, check this out ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOf4aQhMxw

Just replace the fish with a small child or a kitten, repaint the body and BOOM ... Red Kite.

Remember that Kites only flap their wings once every 6 weeks though (at least it seems like it).


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## Mechanism Man

NazNomad":3rszjs37 said:


> Brian, check this out ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOf4aQhMxw
> 
> Just replace the fish with a small child or a kitten, repaint the body and BOOM ... Red Kite.
> 
> Remember that Kites only flap their wings once every 6 weeks though (at least it seems like it).



Good find! Though I'd also put the wind mill behind him rather than in front so that he doesn't appear to be flying towards certain doom at the hands of the renewable energy wind farm folk!


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## Claymore

........


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## Mechanism Man

Hi everyone,
Well since my image hosting site Photobucket suddenly started wanting $499 per year to store the photos I use on this and other forums they have all stopped working - sorry.
Sooo, below is a link to my Pintrest page where you will find several photos of my now FINISHED machine! It's turned out far better than I ever could have hoped - and with the English translated dials the machine can actually be used, and it seems to be relatively accurate. I've been lucky enough to pick up a few commissions along the way so I think I'll now be tied up scrolling gear wheels for the foreseeable future!
Take care all. 

 http://pin.it/aEVQ5q8


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## Claymore

.........


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## thick_mike

That's just beautiful, really brought a tear to my eye. A terrific statement about what makes humanity so amazing. Firstly the invention of such a complex machine from antiquity, and secondly the respect for knowledge passed to bring it back to life.

Thank you for sharing it with us.


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## AES

Great pix MM, thanks a lot for posting your new photo collection.

Just as a matter of interest, do your new commissions include other Antikythera mechanisms (or similar). If yes, how do you feel about starting off from square 1 all over again? The reason I ask is that (apart from the simple fact that my work is nowhere near the quality of yours) the idea of making something for sale and so having to make more than one off (of anything) is very unattractive to me.

AES


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## Mechanism Man

Hi AES,
Yes, the commissions are for copies of this first machine - four of them at the last count...
That means around 40 frames, 228 hand cut gears, countless axles, pointers, displays other numerous bits and bobs - and do you know what? I can't wait!
This particular project I've been mulling over for almost as long as I can remember - in fact ever since I read about it in a book by Arthur C Clarke back in the late 70s. Mine is the first one of it's type ever offered for sale, and as such it's something that I'm now deeply passionate about (... maybe weirdly obsessed...?), and its now going to be a big part of my income, and I find that really exciting. I'm finally going to be doing something that I love, for money! And reasonably decent money at that.
My only natural gift is patience, and that's all these machine's need to be honest - lots and lots of patience. And I'm going to use the excuse of building more of them to keep refining the design, so each one is better than the last.
Yes - long hours in my shed, listening to my choice music all day, doing something I love. Sounds good to me!


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## Harbo

Excellent work - have you seen the metal one being made by Clickspring on YouTube?

https://youtu.be/ML4tw_UzqZE

Rod


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## Mechanism Man

Oh yes - that fella is in a whole other league to my wooden efforts. He is done kind of God-like being me thinks!


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## novocaine

all hail clickspring for he is truelly the finder of lost souls. 

stunning work Mr Mech, good luck with making them for money.


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