# New Chisels From Veritas



## Max Power (9 Nov 2010)

Anybody got any inside information on the new range of chisels currently being developed by Lee Valley (Veritas) for introduction next year? Come on Alf spill the beans


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## Rob Lee (9 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":5zqiwt1q said:


> Anybody got any inside information on the new range of chisels currently being developed by Lee Valley (Veritas) for introduction next year? Come on Alf spill the beans



Yup - I do....


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## Max Power (9 Nov 2010)

Flipping heck talk about getting it from the horses mouth :shock: 
Come on then Rob give us a few clues :lol: :lol:


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## Rob Lee (9 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":ma61veus said:


> Flipping heck talk about getting it from the horses mouth :shock:
> Come on then Rob give us a few clues :lol: :lol:



Hi Alan - 

Not really much I can say - we're still sorting through some details..> and haven't even yet confirmed our choice of steel... and that may be different for different chisel styles.

We do have a custom grinding machine being built in Germany, which will be ready come spring.... by then, we should be a bit more "leaky"...

Oh - and that Alf's not yet involved should tell you that we're still working with the handles.... :lol: 

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Max Power (9 Nov 2010)

Thanks Rob, will look forward to finding out more in the spring


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## Alf (9 Nov 2010)

I know... virtually nothing. What (very) little I do know is intriguing, and also indicates that the apparently humble chisel is definitely getting the full Veritas R&D treatment. I'm as agog as you. And any handles will get my full, freaky-handed attention; trust me. :wink: :lol:


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## Ironballs (9 Nov 2010)

Can I put in a request for a steel/all in one handle like you have with kitchen knives. Just imagine a chisel with a nickel steel handle in the style of the NX block plane...


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## bugbear (10 Nov 2010)

Ironballs":h96vqpoa said:


> Can I put in a request for a steel/all in one handle like you have with kitchen knives. Just imagine a chisel with a nickel steel handle in the style of the NX block plane...



Sounds cold, heavy and expensive  

BugBear


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## Max Power (10 Nov 2010)

Cocobolo handles for mine. Resin impregnated like the ones Blue Spruce do so you can hit them and they stay looking beautiful


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## Eric The Viking (10 Nov 2010)

:idea: I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting a left-handed set.

It's bad enough that screwdrivers are only available right-handed. And hammers, for that matter. I've asked locally, and they just say there's no demand... 

It's the only thing holding me back from woodworking stardom, I'm certain.

:roll:


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## Max Power (10 Nov 2010)

Well Im ambidextrous Erick, Im equally bad with either hand :lol: :lol:


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## Max Power (10 Nov 2010)

Dont forget to keep us fully informed when you do have any info Alf as I feel I should warn you I do a mean Chinese burn :lol: :lol:


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## Alf (10 Nov 2010)

Ah, the irony. A Chinese burn - made in England... :lol: 

This thread ably demonstrates why tool makers so often ended up with such a huge range of different chisel styles... I'm inclined to lean towards a handle system that makes user customisation as straightforward as possible, but we shall see.

And Eric, left-handed hammers. :wink:


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## Eric The Viking (10 Nov 2010)

Alf":3p2dgj2o said:


> And Eric, left-handed hammers. :wink:



My nose^h cup runneth over (ifth the wedder).

Seriously, does he _really_ think there's a market? :shock:

I knew I'd regret that posting...


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## woodbloke (10 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":3kljqxdl said:


> Cocobolo handles for mine. Resin impregnated like the ones Blue Spruce do so you can hit them and they stay looking beautiful


As long as they're O1 steel :roll: as well. You know what you can do with that new fangled A2 stuff :lol: - Rob


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## Noel (10 Nov 2010)

I asked Rob about 5 or 6 years ago about chisels, he said "maybe, in the future but very expensive to manufacture" so looking forward to their release. Socket design I hope.


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## bugbear (10 Nov 2010)

woodbloke":36p5bkwb said:


> Alan Jones":36p5bkwb said:
> 
> 
> > Cocobolo handles for mine. Resin impregnated like the ones Blue Spruce do so you can hit them and they stay looking beautiful
> ...



What's wrong with CPM-3v?

Shoot for the moon!

More seriously, I suspect Veritas aren't aiming at "dream chisels", but "better than you have any right to expect for the money" chisels, achieved by ruthless elimination of features that don't have a good cost/benefit ratio, and innovation, including use of modern materials.

A chisel "cousin" of their miraculous dovetail saw would be most interesting, and would amusingly annoy the fuddy-duddies.

There are some interesting features on the Ward & Payne Aristocrat chisels, for example.

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Nov 2010)

bugbear":36rfdejg said:


> ....
> There are some interesting features on the Ward & Payne Aristocrat chisels, for example.
> 
> BugBear


A quick google:







I've never seen one of these chisels. I think I know why: something tells me (call it intuition :lol: )that their innovation was in fact completely worthless and the handles all broke. They do look so flimsy!
Whereas my Stanley 5001s with black handles, of similar vintage, are still going strong and are probably the best chisels you can get.

PS Is this the proof?






Ward & Payne socket chisels with crude replacement handles. The only image of the socket variety I could find. Plenty of tanged examples with nice conventional and original box or ash handles.


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## bugbear (11 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":vfkm0xef said:


> I've never seen one of these chisels.



If seeing diverse things is your goal, you need go to more auctions, tool dealers and car boots, and read more books. There's none so blind...



> I think I know why: something tells me (call it intuition :lol: )that their innovation was in fact completely worthless and the handles all broke.



They survived just fine, but not many were sold, probably due to price.

I own one, and it's rather nice; lovely steel, with excellent grinding. I'm never going to know how durable the handle is under abuse; I don't abuse tools.

IIRC there was a thread on this very forum, where someone had an NIB box of 'em!

Edit; here:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/aris ... aristocrat

Your "proof" pictures merely show Ward & Payne socketed chisels; a standard old design, made by many manufacturers.

Diagnosis: neophobia, or perhaps paleophilia   

BugBear


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## Rob Lee (11 Nov 2010)

bugbear":qdyain7m said:


> What's wrong with CPM-3v?
> 
> Shoot for the moon!
> 
> ...



Dang - you're good...

Definitely looking at concepts similar to the Ward and Payne Style .... but still different. The drawbores we did awhile back were essentially a test for making chisels....a wee bit 'o learning, in a peripheral, but related product.

CPM-3V is one of thousands of steels.... it's a specific formulation from a specific company (Crucible Industries) - there are lots of others out there!

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Alf (11 Nov 2010)

S'funny, I came >this< close to mentioning the W&P Aristocrats; didn't know you had one, BB. In that cutaway drawing in the ad, is that a slot in the end cap? In other words, can you disassemble the handle from the blade, if, for instance, you wanted to change it? Not that I'm addicted to changing chisel handles or anything...

Oh who am I kidding? Yes I am.  :lol:


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## bugbear (11 Nov 2010)

Alf":36toncbk said:


> S'funny, I came >this< close to mentioning the W&P Aristocrats; didn't know you had one, BB. In that cutaway drawing in the ad, is that a slot in the end cap? In other words, can you disassemble the handle from the blade, if, for instance, you wanted to change it? Not that I'm addicted to changing chisel handles or anything...
> 
> Oh who am I kidding? Yes I am.  :lol:



Yeah. The chisel is threaded, and so is the cap; the handle is drilled all the way through, and the shaft is just threaded rod.

The upshot of all this is that the (slotted) cap can be turned, and pulls the whole assembly together. Hmm. Hammer with a metal hammer would probably mar the screw slot a bit.

It's also the earliest example I know of the sort of blade shape LN do on their DT chisels; quite a thick body, ground so that the actual side-edge is close to zero height, but with the grinding at quite a steep angle. Low enough to fit "under" a dovetail, but not much lower.

Compare and contrast typical English pattern makers' paring chisels.

If I'd remembered how Lee Valley made their drawbore pins, I'd have been all over the W&P reference, but I'd forgotten.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.a ... at=1,43456

As it is, it was just the first piece of "old backwater chisel design" that came to mind.... !!

BugBear


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## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Rob Lee":q33up7f2 said:


> ...
> Definitely looking at concepts similar to the Ward and Payne Style .... but still different. ...


My guess would be "Perfect" patent (if that is what it is called). Definite improvement on the W&P Aristocrat.






www.roseantiquetools.com


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## bugbear (11 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":h1zpbb2q said:


> Rob Lee":h1zpbb2q said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



The inventors of the perfect handle design circa 1850 (USA) were pretty energetic in exploiting it. I'm sure if they'd found it good for chisels, they'd have made and sold chisels.

I know collectors of perfect handle tools (*), and they've published lists. No chisel appears, although the idea was patented (USA 816626)

BugBear

(*) See Gary? Collectors can be useful to the rest of us !


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## GazPal (11 Nov 2010)

bugbear":lxjkt72z said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":lxjkt72z said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Lee":lxjkt72z said:
> ...



I never said collectors weren't useful, but did say collectors tend to drive prices higher. I'll have a rummage in the old workshop later, because I'm almost certain we had a set or part set of those perfect handle drivers. one problem I do recall - concerning scale handled drivers - was their handle's liability to separate if allowed to dry out. Socket handled chisels had a tendancy to let the blade loose at in-opportune moments.


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## Alf (11 Nov 2010)

Manufacturing-wise, the Perfect Handle approach would drive up the price I imagine. Don't see Rob going for that except for very obvious user benefits - which I, for one, can't see. This does not mean they're not there.

Thanks, BB. I'd failed to take the drawbore pins into consideration too - I think they fell under the radar while I was _hors de combat_. I will study and inwardly digest - all of which will not help my agog-ness one bit...


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## Vann (11 Nov 2010)

bugbear":qofqigem said:


> If I'd remembered how Lee Valley made their drawbore pins...
> 
> http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.a ... at=1,43456


Open the little _view_ window (down by the pricing) and all is revealed...

Cheers, Vann.


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## Harbo (11 Nov 2010)

Ah - I get it!
Very clever and does away with the socket, though sockets do look nice.

I suppose there could be a danger of whacking the wood instead of the metal cap and driving it down and perhaps force a split at the bolster?
Wider cap or bolster or resin impregnated wood would help?

One on my LN's became loose and fell onto the floor - shrunk a bit because of the cold weather - luckily no damage as it fell onto rubber matts!

Rod


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## Max Power (11 Nov 2010)

Lots of people report problems with the handles coming loose on LNs Rod
and have used various methods to prevent this but one of the simplest I've heard of is a good squirt of hairspray into the socket and on the handle and apparently it holds like a limpet


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## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Vann":bir4fvau said:


> bugbear":bir4fvau said:
> 
> 
> > If I'd remembered how Lee Valley made their drawbore pins...
> ...


You do have to laugh though when you look at all that LV drawbore nonsense. In reality any old bit of steel (or wood for that matter) with approx the right diameter and a pointed end, will do for drawboring


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## Jacob (11 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":2bcjz618 said:


> Lots of people report problems with the handles coming loose on LNs Rod
> and have used various methods to prevent this but one of the simplest I've heard of is a good squirt of hairspray into the socket and on the handle and apparently it holds like a limpet


Or buy a chisel with firmly attached handles. I recommend older Stanley 5001s. Ten or twenty of them for the price of one LN LV etc.


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## bugbear (12 Nov 2010)

GazPal":2ncd7581 said:


> bugbear":2ncd7581 said:
> 
> 
> > (*) See Gary? Collectors can be useful to the rest of us !
> ...



I know (I have reading skills too ;-) ).

I was making a point on a matter other than price.

BugBear


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## bugbear (12 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1bt2erbd said:


> Alan Jones":1bt2erbd said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of people report problems with the handles coming loose on LNs Rod
> ...



Marples blue chip are just as good ;-)

BugBear


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## GazPal (12 Nov 2010)

bugbear":2ceh7njd said:


> GazPal":2ceh7njd said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":2ceh7njd said:
> ...



:lol: At least we're both literate. :lol: 

Eye new dat. :wink:


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## GazPal (12 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":3u6t7uxu said:


> Alan Jones":3u6t7uxu said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of people report problems with the handles coming loose on LNs Rod
> ...



I tend to agree in terms of opting for chisels with fixed handles. Many old timers would pein a rivet through the socket due to problems with handles working loose during use. Not for the sake of saving the blade, but more a case of one's own safety and that of the piece being worked on if the blade were to decide to take a random nose dive. Otherwise they'd periodically need to re-fit the handle to the socket.

It's bad enough when I raid wor lasses nail varnish remover to kill the odd bit of superglue, but - being a baldy - raiding her hairspray would definitely take some explaining. A dollop or two of boiled linseed oil on the shank might serve the same purpose???


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2010)

Seems to me that the only advantage of socket chisels over the others is that when you lose the handle it is relatively easy to make and fit a replacement.


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## GazPal (12 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1kivdnzf said:


> Seems to me that the only advantage of socket chisels over the others is that when you lose the handle it is relatively easy to make and fit a replacement.



That's certainly a valid point. It's also possible to add a longer or shorter handle to socket chisels if necessary and I think LN offer such spares as an option. I suppose it's a good option to have for those with different hand sizes, but would think it more sensible to order the correct size in the first place, or simply trim the existing ones to fit. I can't imagine another reason for switching handles, as overlong or shorter than standard handles can tend to prove troublesome during use.

A striking button on the handle is well worth considering for the sake of flexability between mallet and hammer, but this feature was normally the preserve of firmer and mortise chisels.


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## Harbo (12 Nov 2010)

Well we will all have to wait and see what comes out?

I have a set of my fathers black 5001's and a set of blue 5002's that I bought in the late 60's - both made of crappy steel as they will not keep an edge - they curl over?

Rod


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## GazPal (12 Nov 2010)

Harbo":1vkv6un5 said:


> Well we will all have to wait and see what comes out?
> 
> I have a set of my fathers black 5001's and a set of blue 5002's that I bought in the late 60's - both made of crappy steel as they will not keep an edge - they curl over?
> 
> Rod



That's strange as I've never had that problem with neither 5001 or 5002's. Edge curling normally indicates over heating during grinding and/or sometimes too shallow a primary bevel angle.


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2010)

Harbo":s7o34ybg said:


> Well we will all have to wait and see what comes out?
> 
> I have a set of my fathers black 5001's and a set of blue 5002's that I bought in the late 60's - both made of crappy steel as they will not keep an edge - they curl over?
> 
> Rod


Mine are spot on. And a few 5002s (I think that's what they are anyway). The 5001s are noticeably harder than the blue ones and take a little longer to hone.


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## GazPal (13 Nov 2010)

Something along the lines of Stanley's "Everlasting" range of chisels may fit the bill. Solid construction with stubby Ash handle let into a robust socket, but with a striking cap secured through the socket via threaded rod and slot headed nut.


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## Alf (13 Nov 2010)

So rather like the Aristocrats already discussed up the thread then?


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## GazPal (13 Nov 2010)

Alf":1utg1kag said:


> So rather like the Aristocrats already discussed up the thread then?



Yes, but with a much shorter timber handle and longer socket elements. Aristocrats - on the other hand - had an appearance and feel not too far removed from Stanley 5002's in shape and hafting

Here's a link to a few examples;

http://www.antique-used-tools.com/stanleychisels.htm

http://worcester.craigslist.org/tls/2020984005.html

My grandfather had a nice set of them and they were very good chisels, but I haven't a clue where they disappeared to.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":3hqack1e said:


> Seems to me that the only advantage of socket chisels over the others is that when you lose the handle it is relatively easy to make and fit a replacement.



I think the socketed construction is a more durable design, and is better suited to chisels that are struck with a hammer than are the tanged design. Tanged chisels are, by virtue of their lighter construction, better suited to paring chisels.

For fitting a new handle, I think a tanged chisels would be easier to do. However for replacing a handle, I agree that a socket should be easier (if you can make a socketed handle .. here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Soyouwanttomakeadovetailchisel.html)

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## lanemaux (14 Nov 2010)

Just a thought if Rob Lee is listening... you make (or distribute) tools for tennoning if I recall. Much akin to a spoke pointer... follow me here, what if one of these were made to specifically match a , well a socketed chisel of your own manufacture for example... maybe even as a part of a master set and also offered separately to rehandle these hypothetical chisels. Might appeal to the asthetic of the socket types ...no? Sounds wild to me. 
Mike


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## Jacob (14 Nov 2010)

I didn't quite follow that. Do you mean; sell chisels with easily losable handles, then sell the kit to make the replacements? And sell the blanks too I suppose?
Don't give them ideas!


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## GazPal (14 Nov 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":en7az3vd said:


> I didn't quite follow that. Do you mean; sell chisels with easily losable handles, then sell the kit to make the replacements? And sell the blanks too I suppose?
> Don't give them ideas!



:lol:


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## Max Power (14 Nov 2010)

Hi Mike, doubt if many on here will know what a spoke pointer is  
So for those that don't its a device thats used in a drill to point the end of cartwheel spokes to enable the subsequent use of the tenoner to put a round tenon on them to fit into the wheel rim (felloe)


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## Jacob (14 Nov 2010)

Alan Jones":cq7iq9k2 said:


> Hi Mike, doubt if many on here will know what a spoke pointer is
> So for those that dent its a device thats used in a drill to point the end of cartwheel spokes to enable the subsequent use of the tenoner to put a round tenon on them to fit into the wheel rim (felloe)


I guessed what it was from the name.


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## lanemaux (14 Nov 2010)

Actually Jacob , I had more in mind folk making their own handles , perhaps of old baseball bats recycled for the ash in them for use in striking. If these were loose , well no worries ... make a set in cocobolo or exotic of choice and just let them rest in the socket for display. the ash ones hidden in a drawer would suit for use and you need not show them to friends during gloat sessions .


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## Jacob (14 Nov 2010)

lanemaux":3d17jfvg said:


> Actually Jacob , I had more in mind folk making their own handles , perhaps of old baseball bats recycled for the ash in them for use in striking. If these were loose , well no worries ... make a set in cocobolo or exotic of choice and just let them rest in the socket for display. the ash ones hidden in a drawer would suit for use and you need not show them to friends during gloat sessions .


 :lol: :lol:


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## GazPal (14 Nov 2010)

lanemaux":hd29nnlm said:


> Actually Jacob , I had more in mind folk making their own handles , perhaps of old baseball bats recycled for the ash in them for use in striking. If these were loose , well no worries ... make a set in cocobolo or exotic of choice and just let them rest in the socket for display. the ash ones hidden in a drawer would suit for use and you need not show them to friends during gloat sessions .



Perfectly fine if you play baseball and enjoy flashing your timbered tools. :wink:


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