# SawStop UK Imports



## HRRLutherie

I'm probably completely missing something, but I've always wondered why people don't just import SawStops from the US. Even with freight and taxes, surely it would still come below the price of a really decent UK saw.

Or is there just not the demand for it, as nearly all UK saws have sliding tables. It just seems like in a hobbyist workshop, a big sliding table seems overkill. However, I have been taught woodworking by American videos, so I'm probably not seeing the advantages.


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## jimmybigfoot

I know exactly what you mean as I am studying joinery in France and all the saws I've used have sliders.


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## HRRLutherie

Is anyone in France selling plain old American cabinet saws?


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## Lord Kitchener

SIP, and others, I'm sure, offer table saws with small(ish) sliding tables, if space is your main concern. For general woodworking I would much sooner have a sliding table than much about with a crosscut sled. There's no way such a sled is going to be as accurate as a proper sliding table. Plus, of course, one of the big advantages of a sliding table is the flip stop. Quite often you will want to take a bit off each end off the pieces you are working on. Flip the stop up, eyeball the amount you want to trim off, turn the piece around, flip the stop down, and cut it to tlength. All the others will be the same.


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## HRRLutherie

I guess I just don't know how to use a slider. But why are American rip fences so superior (or is that just US woodworker propaganda?)


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## JakeS

HRRLutherie":10jacj05 said:


> why are American rip fences so superior



Isn't that because they go all the way from back to front for maximum kickback potential? ;-)



(I have one of those saws with the miniature sliding table/carriage, and it's awesome most of the time. But I'm still wondering about making a cross-cut sled, because there's sometimes things which are too long front-to-back to fit on the sliding carriage and remain in front of the saw... and I don't have the space to set up the RHS extension table at the moment.)


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## HRRLutherie

I still don't understand how you can get kickback when you're using a fully adjusted riving knife, it seems physically impossible


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## ankledeep

HRRLutherie":1vnlchky said:


> I still don't understand how you can get kickback when you're using a fully adjusted riving knife, it seems physically impossible



if your fence, for ANY reason leans in towards the blade....kickback to the max...even with a riving knife...believe me......I KNOW....  #-o (homer) 

and that was on a relative baby of a saw (the saw that comes with the coronet major) Full length fences CAN be ok...BUT you HAVE to check them for parallell-ness to the blade every time you start ripping or else :twisted: and its better if they are a smidgin leaning away from the blade.....


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## JakeS

ankledeep":fgq7xzy0 said:


> if your fence, for ANY reason leans in towards the blade....kickback to the max...even with a riving knife...believe me......I KNOW....  #-o (homer)



(Because the workpiece will potentially hit the rising teeth at the back before it gets anywhere near the riving knife?)


More relevantly to my flippant comment, though - Americans don't seem to believe in riving knives!



I do get the impression that they look down on the apparently-more-common 'short' rip fences over here, though, so that possibly is part of the reason. I presume they think that there's more chance that the workpiece will wobble and you'll get a non-straight cut... but it seems to me that if you're pushing to the right of the blade, the piece is only ever going to 'wobble' towards the front of the fence and the riving knife if it moves at all...


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## woodshavings

JakeS":2d6vodyx said:


> (I have one of those saws with the miniature sliding table/carriage, and it's awesome most of the time. But I'm still wondering about making a cross-cut sled,



I have a Charnwood 619 Sliding carriage table saw. I have made a cross sled that fits in the groove on the sliding carriage - best of both worlds.
John


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## jimmybigfoot

Hi, no I've never come across American cabinet saws.


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## Steve Maskery

Riving knife prevents the workpiece closing up on the back of the blade, but it does not stop it opening up and applying pressure on the (long)fence. If that happens, and the fence doesn't move, the rest of the workpiece is pushed into the blade. That's why, for ripping, we need both a short fence and a RK.
S


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## HRRLutherie

Ah, that makes sense.

So, back to the big question: has anyone imported a SawStop?


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## Lord Kitchener

HRRLutherie":2b3xmaad said:


> So, back to the big question: has anyone imported a SawStop?




If thye had, it would almost certainly have to have been as a personal import, ordered directly by the customer from a seller in the States, becuase it is virtually certain that it doesn't have a CE mark, and so it would be illegal for a firm to import them for resale. Which is why Axmisnter doesn't import any electric pocket hole machines, only the air powered one, incidentally.

I did a quick google on it, and found only queries about it, mostly oon this forum, so if anyone has done it, they are keeping it to themselves.


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## Noel

Lord Kitchener":3mb4z979 said:


> SIP, and others, I'm sure, offer table saws with small(ish) sliding tables, if space is your main concern. For general woodworking I would much sooner have a sliding table than much about with a crosscut sled. There's no way such a sled is going to be as accurate as a proper sliding table. Plus, of course, one of the big advantages of a sliding table is the flip stop. Quite often you will want to take a bit off each end off the pieces you are working on. Flip the stop up, eyeball the amount you want to trim off, turn the piece around, flip the stop down, and cut it to tlength. All the others will be the same.



Why wouldn't a well constructed and adjusted sled be as less accurate than a "proper" sliding table? And I've seen plenty of sleds with a flip stop.


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## Lord Kitchener

Noel":38rolci3 said:


> Lord Kitchener":38rolci3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> SIP, and others, I'm sure, offer table saws with small(ish) sliding tables, if space is your main concern. For general woodworking I would much sooner have a sliding table than much about with a crosscut sled. There's no way such a sled is going to be as accurate as a proper sliding table. Plus, of course, one of the big advantages of a sliding table is the flip stop. Quite often you will want to take a bit off each end off the pieces you are working on. Flip the stop up, eyeball the amount you want to trim off, turn the piece around, flip the stop down, and cut it to tlength. All the others will be the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't a well constructed and adjusted sled be as less accurate than a "proper" sliding table? And I've seen plenty of sleds with a flip stop.
Click to expand...


I suppose such a sled could be. I should think they would get a bit unwieldy at the kind of size needed to be able to crosscut say 1000mm to the left of the blade. I would normally expect that roller bearings running of alloy extrusuon or steel bar to have less play and easier movement than runners in machined slots, but I've never tried to construct a sled so must admit I was guided by my engineering prejudices. 

If you assure me that a decent sled is as good as a sliding table them I will take your word for it.


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## 3planksjoinery

The riving knife is slightly thicker than the saw plate but not quite as thick as the saw kerf, therefor it does not prevent kick back, It is to stop to timber being ripped from binding on the saw plate, the fence should be adjusted to just past the gullet of the tooth closest to the bed and a maximum depth of cut should be on no account more than 4 teeth, hope this helps


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## rafezetter

The other thing that comes to mind regarding american TS and use of a riving knife is dado blade and chippers etc, they use them a great deal over there, but are not legal/ CE covered/ whatever (far as I know) in europe.


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## Steve Maskery

The use of dado blades is not illegal. The use of them unguarded is illegal in industry, and it is difficult, but not impossible, to guard them.
If you can guard them you can use them. And at home in your garage, you can do anything you like. That does not necessarily mean that it is wise to ignore very sensible H&S guidelines.
S


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## WoodMangler

HRRLutherie":10le0fbg said:


> So, back to the big question: has anyone imported a SawStop?


Wouldn't it be the wrong voltage for the UK ?


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## Cheshirechappie

One of the great strengths of the riving knife, short rip fence and crown guard is that (as long as they're properly designed, made and installed)once set up and correctly adjusted, they have no moving parts. They are therefore pretty reliable. Used in conjunction with push sticks, you have a set-up that has a reliable and inherent highish degree of safety for the operator and for anybody else in the vicinity.

Saw-stop relies on sensors and moving parts, which may or may not get proper maintenance in the rather dusty and potentially dirty environment in which they are expected to work. There is therefore scope for failure - blocked or failed sensor, and moving parts that may fail to move at the critical moment. I very much hope I'm wrong, but I fear that it's only a matter of time before somebody suffers a serious injury because the saw-stop equipment didn't work as it should have done. Also, I don't see how saw-stop can prevent or minimise the chances of kick-back, so whilst it's a very impressive piece of technology when it works, it has it's limitations.


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## Jacob

I agree with Cheshirechappie. 2 push sticks every time. Saw Stop looks insane to me. If you ever get near enough to a saw blade to make it work you are doing it all wrong, but it may also be the day that it fails to work.

Sliding tables - when I first got one I found it much more useful than I imagined it would be. You can do a sorts of peculiar cuts very accurately and safely, even put a whole piece of furniture on if you have to. Useful for heavy timbers, repeat lengths etc etc. I'd get the longest one practical if buying a new saw. Indispensable.


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## nanscombe

I thought, from the American demos I've seen, that the SawStop technology (rather than the saw brand) was simply to retract the blade very quickly when it came in contact with something conductive, like the operators fingers (or damp wood whoops!), to minimize damage.

I assume it came with a riving knife to deal with kickback issues.


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## heatherw

Jacob":3ajo9oh9 said:


> I agree with Cheshirechappie. 2 push sticks every time. Saw Stop looks insane to me. If you ever get near enough to a saw blade to make it work you are doing it all wrong, but it may also be the day that it fails to work.
> 
> Sliding tables - when I first got one I found it much more useful than I imagined it would be. You can do a sorts of peculiar cuts very accurately and safely, even put a whole piece of furniture on if you have to. Useful for heavy timbers, repeat lengths etc etc. I'd get the longest one practical if buying a new saw. Indispensable.



+1 I have a reasonably small sliding table and often use it to cut the legs off stools and tables for customers. It's the work of a minute, you only have to mark or measure one leg and all the rest come out the same. If the slider was a bit bigger I'd probably try it with armchairs as well 8)


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## rdesign

Just started working in a cabinet shop in america! h&s they never heard of it nailers with no secondary trigger stops a scm panel saw with no knife and a saw stop with no knife. You have to be careful any trace of metal in a piece and the saw stop goes off. if u know theirs a brad nail in it u can turn it off but as soon as u turn off the saw and return it on the mechanisim is loaded again. its fense isn't that special theirs plenty of advice out their how to build your own. its mitre gauge is really good. but still its not that different my table saw at home a sip 01322 and that has a optional slider attached! 
u can get it in 220 volt the 5 hp model if you are interested! for the hassel unless you think u are a danger to yourself don't get one just learn how to use a table saw from european demos! 
Regards Richard
Learning how wood work isn't as fun if its ur 6 am to 2 30 job 5 days a week


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## Sgian Dubh

HRRLutherie":3n0gpeqw said:


> I'm probably completely missing something, but I've always wondered why people don't just import SawStops from the US. Even with freight and taxes, surely it would still come below the price of a really decent UK saw.


I don't think Sawstop really addresses safety issues in table saw usage that aren't dealt with more effectively through better methods expected of European users and the way machines are set up over here. Sawstop technology, although seemingly good so far at what it does, in preventing amputation and the like through contact with the spinning blade, is addressing a problem that safer usage would largely eliminate.

I worked in the US for ten years and found their attitude to table saw safety very strange indeed. Such usage as full length rip fences, the removal of splitters (riving knives) and crown guards from the machine, cross cutting long narrow pieces using the rip fence as a length stop, the fitting of dado and moulding heads, etc were the norm in my experience. My European style saw usage in America was sometimes considered by some of them as fit only for fearties, pussies, wussies, and other whiners. Table saws for many Americans are a sort of all purpose woodworking machine and the fewer guards to get in the way of doing whatever you want with any set up you can dream up the better, as rdesign is finding out now that he's working over there. Sawstop technology mostly addresses the issues of unguarded usage, but unguarded usage is not an issue we generally need to deal with in the UK in professional workshops.

Off course, outside the professional UK workshop there are amateur woodworkers here who seem to be gaining a great deal of their woodworking information (plus plenty of misinformation) and machine practices from American sources with, for example, the internet being a primary source, and then there's Norm Abrams on the TV over here too, as well as magazines such as Fine Woodworking. And amateurs I suppose can work any way they want, but Sawstop is technology that probably wouldn't be sanctioned for professional workshops as it is, so the only market for it might be the amateur or hobby market, i.e., too few sales to make it worthwhile. Slainte.


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## stewar678

The problem is you have to replace the motor as it will burn out. US plugs run at 60hz and UK plugs 50hz, this will cause the motor to run slower and it will burn out.
it is still possible to have a sawstop it just means buying and replacing the motor.


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## Rorschach

stewar678":234v52vb said:


> The problem is you have to replace the motor as it will burn out. US plugs run at 60hz and UK plugs 50hz, this will cause the motor to run faster and it will burn out.
> it is still possible to have a sawstop it just means buying and replacing the motor.



The motor would run slower here, not faster. My lathe has a speed plate for 50 and 60hz, the 60hz speeds are faster, by 20% as you might imagine.


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## theallan

The disadvantage to using a sliding table over a cross cut sled that I can see is that the sled is zero clearance. Or do sliding table users typically add some kind of backing to stop tear out?


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## PAC1

theallan":314vqdwb said:


> The disadvantage to using a sliding table over a cross cut sled that I can see is that the sled is zero clearance. Or do sliding table users typically add some kind of backing to stop tear out?



Yes, I use both a zero clearance home made plate and if I really need to protect a veneer or edge then a piece of 3mm ply specific to the job.

The big downside with sledges is that people remove the crown guard or have them set to high so as not to hit the sledge. further I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.
In relation to sawstop I would not want to rely upon the technology. My experience with all technology is that it has a habit of failing at the moment you need it most. It is far better to use a push stick, riving knife and crown guard and stand to the side of the saw blade.


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## theallan

I was actually thinking about the open face at the back rather than the throat plate. And yeah - it would need to be guarded - been watching Steve M's videos on the topic 

On topic: I'm in the same boat as most others appear to be int eh thread - SawStop tech could be a useful fallback if you really screw up, but if you use sensible practices it should never be needed.


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## Steve Maskery

PAC1":2ft378p2 said:


> I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.



PAC, what is your reason for disliking this practice?
Standing to the left of the blade is defence against kickback when ripping (although a proper RK and short fence pretty much eliminates the risk anyway). A crosscut sled doesn't present that risk.

The main risks with a CC sled are, as you say, the removed guard and the risk of cutting one's thumb off as the sled moves beyond the blade. A built-in guard and an exit tunnel guard mitigate against this, too.


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## PAC1

Steve Maskery":20obe8py said:


> PAC1":20obe8py said:
> 
> 
> 
> I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAC, what is your reason for disliking this practice?
> Standing to the left of the blade is defence against kickback when ripping (although a proper RK and short fence pretty much eliminates the risk anyway). A crosscut sled doesn't present that risk.
> 
> The main risks with a CC sled are, as you say, the removed guard and the risk of cutting one's thumb off as the sled moves beyond the blade. A built-in guard and an exit tunnel guard mitigate against this, too.
Click to expand...


I have seen a piece of ply lift as the teeth at the rear of the saw take flight. If you clamp the wood to the sledge then it cannot occur but all too often it is just held by the operator and the flight is too fast for the operator to act.


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## Jacob

PAC1":wm2gxswi said:


> Steve Maskery":wm2gxswi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAC1":wm2gxswi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAC, what is your reason for disliking this practice?
> Standing to the left of the blade is defence against kickback when ripping (although a proper RK and short fence pretty much eliminates the risk anyway). A crosscut sled doesn't present that risk.
> 
> The main risks with a CC sled are, as you say, the removed guard and the risk of cutting one's thumb off as the sled moves beyond the blade. A built-in guard and an exit tunnel guard mitigate against this, too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have seen a piece of ply lift as the teeth at the rear of the saw take flight. If you clamp the wood to the sledge then it cannot occur but all too often it is just held by the operator and the flight is too fast for the operator to act.
Click to expand...

 This can't happen if you set your crown guard down close to the ply. It works more or less as a hold down.


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## PAC1

Jacob, exactly but where a sledge is used, you regularly see no crown guard or it too high to be any use.


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## Steve Maskery

Ah, I see.
Well I don't actually use my CC sled very much, as I have a perfectly good SCMS, but when I do it has an integral guard which would stop that happening anyway. But thank you for the clarification.


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## Woodmatt

Have any of you seen this then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lekm3hWZgg

Not sure what to make of it.


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## Lord Kitchener

theallan":3hcxxhtg said:


> The disadvantage to using a sliding table over a cross cut sled that I can see is that the sled is zero clearance. Or do sliding table users typically add some kind of backing to stop tear out?



Most (proper) sliding table saws have scoring blades.


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## Jacob

Woodmatt":ef4p9wz8 said:


> Have any of you seen this then.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lekm3hWZgg
> 
> Not sure what to make of it.


Insane. 
The yanks seem obsessed with grippers, hold downs, featherboards, but they seem to lose fingers and scare themselves sh|tless about kick-back. 
They don't pay enough attention to crown guards, riving knives and push sticks


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## PAC1

Woodmatt":2tkq3pe6 said:


> Have any of you seen this then.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lekm3hWZgg
> 
> Not sure what to make of it.



I am sure they work wonderfully BUT it is not an alternative to a crown guard. You need protection from that sharp spinning blade. 
Further it does not stop the piece on the other side of the blade flying.


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## Shrubby

Those stock feeder thingys are yet more ludicrous rubbish from the country that invented sawstop
Read WIS16
Crown guards 
SUVA guards
Shaw guards

Matt


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## Woodmatt

They do seem a bit more useful in this setting, but at almost £100 each !!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2_8JkEV5dE


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## Woodmatt

I agree Shrubby you can't beat proper guards set up and used properly.


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