# advice on which leather for strop



## mac1012 (7 Jan 2014)

hi I have been looking for leather strops to buy I have seen one on the tool post here 

http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grindin ... stems.html


its the one on the board and with handle this design is better for me as I can grip in my dumb head shave horse 

I having made and sharpen on the go at craft fairs 

I could make my own as I have plenty of nice flat pitch pine knocking around and I am a regular scoll sawer so making the base with handle would be fine I just not sure what leather to use I have seen people say you can use leather of a belt ? so could I go and purchase a cheap wide leather belt and use that ?? 

and which side is best to use the smooth or rough or both ?

or if any one has any other leather choices that they have used as I would prefer it 3 inch wide like the one on the tool post site 

and what would be best way of sticking to the board pva as I want to make sure it is flat and well stuck down or maybe I would be just better buying the one at tool post as its 80mm wide and 15 pound with postage 

mark


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## undergroundhunter (7 Jan 2014)

Mine is made from and old car seat cover (its what I had to hand) about 2mm thick but an old belt would do if you can find a wide one. I use the rough side with some green compound. Mine is stuck down with PVA to an MDF off cut but I would use contact adhesive as its starting to come away at the edges.

I find it works a treat, mine goes in the vice but like you have said you could easily but a handle on it.

Matt


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## mac1012 (7 Jan 2014)

ok thanks for advice matt I may have a look in town there is a material shop that I have used before they might have some thin leather on a roll that may be suitable 


mark


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## Argus (7 Jan 2014)

.

As an alternative or (even in addition) to a leather strop, you may consider a wooden stropping board.

You need a piece of substantial (at least 3/4" or 1" thick) ply or MDF. It needs to be flat.
Mine is about 9" square. After a very light oiling on the surface, I have one half dressed with the same carvers' stropping compound that is on my leather strop, the other is dressed with a small amount of Autosol metal polish.

If the wooden board method has an advantage, it is that it doe not tend round over your cutting edge as much as a leather strop will with frequent stropping between cuts. This can be an issue with carvers. It also allows the backs of chisels and plane irons to be polished by running it flat on the Autosol side, which you can't do easily on a leather strop without ripping it to shreds.

Both methods work well, either used together or solely.


Hope that this helps. 

.


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## AndyT (7 Jan 2014)

I just popped in to our nearest charity shop, looked through the leather belts and bought the widest. It works fine.


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## MIGNAL (7 Jan 2014)

I prefer the slightly harder leather that is often found on belts. The bit of leather that I use was from an old school satchel bag, just laid flat on the bench. I hone at a few degrees less than done on a hard stone.


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## DTR (7 Jan 2014)

AndyT":1j5i0o9q said:


> I just popped in to our nearest charity shop, looked through the leather belts and bought the widest. It works fine.



+1. Mine's glued to a length of 3/4" MDF, rough side up.


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## Fromey (7 Jan 2014)

So let's start a debate. I've read (sorry can't remember where but I think it was an American forum) that the hard side of leather is the one to used for stropping, not the soft 'furry/fluffy' side. In addition, apparently horse leather is better for stropping than cow hide.


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## MIGNAL (7 Jan 2014)

I doubt it matters very much. Stropping is the very final polish, the part that gives a fraction sharper than finishing on a very fine stone. You could probably strop on paper or denim and it will give a similar effect. I've used wood and the Green paste and that works too.


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## Cheshirechappie (7 Jan 2014)

Actually, chaps, what does a strop need to do? Something to carry a very fine abrasive, and apply it to tool edges without dubbing them over. That suggests that a solid surface would be better than a soft, squidgy one. So a hard leather, fairly thin, fixed to a solid backing, or even just the solid backing if it'll take and hold the abrasive.

I really don't know, but I wonder if leather has become the material of choice because donkey's years ago it was relatively easy to come by and fairly cheap, and also held whatever fine abrasives were then available - jeweller's rouge, for example. If it worked then, it'll work now, of course; but other, newer, options may be just as good or even better (neither Autosol nor MDF were available to the Victorians!).

One advantage for leather is that it can be bent to conform to odd shapes like carving gouges. I've even read of leather bootlaces being dressed with abrasive and used to strop the insides of small vee tools (supply of leather bootlaces may be a tad problematic these days, but I bet Ebay has something pretty damn close!)

I think it can be a sensible move to keep a strop clean when not actually in use - a little slip case may be a good plan. Leaving it lying around unprotected near the grinder or other source of grit particles may not be the best way to ensure a high polish on tool edges!


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## CStanford (7 Jan 2014)

mac1012":3oqeshb0 said:


> hi I have been looking for leather strops to buy I have seen one on the tool post here
> 
> http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grindin ... stems.html
> 
> ...



Shell cordovan very, very lightly dressed with strop paste from a barber supply. Don't use the green wax crayons so commonly offered as appropriate for dressing hand strops. They are for high speed power buffing where the wax melts to expose the abrasive then solidifies again once the buffer is turned off and the wax cools.

Another alternative is a hard rubber strop dressed with aluminum oxide powder. This combination imparts an unbelievably high level of polish with no dubbing. You strop with the lightest of pressure as the AlOx powder does all the work for you.


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## Peter Sefton (7 Jan 2014)

The leather I use and have sourced is English Cow hide 3 to 4mm thick and is taken from the bend of the cow (exported to the Bic factory for machine stropping) this is a stiff leather that we glue to English oak fine side out. We glue this with Titebond 111 and when dry dress with baby oil to open the pores. I have tried all sorts of buffing compounds most of which are designed for powered buffing which don't work for hand strops. I use Veritas .5 micron honing compound which is ideal and designed for the purpose. I feel the use of soft leathers can dub the edge if not used very carefully.
I do also have Autosol to be used on hardwood for students apposed to using leather but feel this along with fine diamond paste defeats the object somewhat of the strop. For me it's a bit of kit which is very clean left on the bench top for improving the edge of my chisels or plane blades during use, very quick and clean rather than going back to the messy business of re sharpening.
What ever sharpening medium I use I usually finish off by stropping in my hand (leather) or on my strop just to remove the very fine wire edge. 
Cheers Peter


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## mac1012 (8 Jan 2014)

thanks for all the comments and feedback , its good that we can have a discussion on here wthout it getting into woeld war 3 !!

some interesting ideas and techniques , peter is the leather you talk about in the shop you have provided the link too the one that says barbers strop ?

thanks mark


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## mac1012 (8 Jan 2014)

think I going to go with the one I seen on tool post I put the link to , its wide board and thin leather and will be flat ! as the last thing I want it an uneven surface I have not stuck down properly as reading you comments to thick or not flat leather will cause me problems especially for a newbie !

I will try the mdf and autosol method on a piece of thick mdf too 

thanks for all info as I am learning all the time !


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## bugbear (8 Jan 2014)

CStanford":3v8glcfy said:


> Don't use the green wax crayons so commonly offered as appropriate for dressing hand strops. They are for high speed power buffing where the wax melts to expose the abrasive then solidifies again once the buffer is turned off and the wax cools.



I'm not sure there's a fully standardised colour code for compounds, although some of them are directly related to chemistry (Chromium (iii) Oxide is green, iron (iii) oxide is red, hence "rouge").

The commonly used Veritas green compound is most certainly appropriate for hand strops.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... at=1,43072

BugBear


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

bugbear":2rsg1eb5 said:


> CStanford":2rsg1eb5 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't use the green wax crayons so commonly offered as appropriate for dressing hand strops. They are for high speed power buffing where the wax melts to expose the abrasive then solidifies again once the buffer is turned off and the wax cools.
> ...



While a lot of people have re-purposed these buffing wheel compound sticks (if the vehicle is a fairly hard wax at room temp it's for use with buffing wheels) they are not the correct way to charge a hand strop. They just aren't. They generally result in a total coating of the leather making the leather itself irrelevant. And it's not irrelevant. A lot of people use these things and a lot of people are wrong on this.

If you can find any classical reference that advises charging a leather strop with wax or something containing wax I'd love to see it.


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

mac1012":31k542d3 said:


> thanks for all the comments and feedback , its good that we can have a discussion on here wthout it getting into woeld war 3 !!
> 
> some interesting ideas and techniques , peter is the leather you talk about in the shop you have provided the link too the one that says barbers strop ?
> 
> thanks mark



Put some of this on one of the company's hard rubber strops:

http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Is-Good-WD40 ... B003NE5BFO

I expect the one container of powder to last ten years, at least. It takes an incredibly small amount to do the job.


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## bugbear (8 Jan 2014)

CStanford":2uk2ozt9 said:


> bugbear":2uk2ozt9 said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":2uk2ozt9 said:
> ...



It's certainly not a repurposing - LV specifically claim it's usable for hand honing. As you know, older references tend to be scanty on detail, especially detail that was considered "obvious" at the time, but I'll see what I can find.

Ah - in the midst of another "discussion" I'd already found this:



Henry Mayhew 1851":2uk2ozt9 said:


> There are twelve street-sellers of razor-paste, but they seem to prefer " working" the distant suburbs, or going on country rounds, as there are often only three in London. It is still vended, I am told, to clerks, who use it to sharpen their pen-knives, but the paste, owing to the prevalence of the use of steel pens, is now atmost a superfluity, compared to what it was. It is bought also, and frequently enough in public-houses, by working-men, as a means of "setting" their razors. The venders make the paste themselves, except two, who purchase of a street-seller. The ingredients are generally fuller's earth (Id.), *hog's lard (Id.),* and emery powder (2<Z.). The paste is sold in boxes carried on a tray, which will close and form a sort of case, like a backgammon board. The quantity I have given will make a dozen boxes (each sold at Id.), so that the profit is Id. in the Is., for to the id. paid for ingredients must be added Id., for the cost of a dozen boxes. The paste is announced as " warranted to put an edge to a razor or penknife superior to any thing ever before offered to the public." The street-sellers offer to prove this by sharpening any gentleman's penknife on the paste spread on a piece of soldier's old belt, which sharpening, when required, they accomplish readily enough. One of these paste-sellers, I was told, had been apprenticed to a barber; another had been a cutter, the remainder are of the ordinary class of street-sellers.
> 
> Calculating that 6 men " work" the metropolis daily, taking 2s. each per day (with Is. 2d. profit), we find 187/. the amount of the street outlay.



BugBear


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## Peter Sefton (8 Jan 2014)

mac1012":29b0jx6q said:


> thanks for all the comments and feedback , its good that we can have a discussion on here wthout it getting into woeld war 3 !!
> 
> some interesting ideas and techniques , peter is the leather you talk about in the shop you have provided the link too the one that says barbers strop ?
> 
> thanks mark


 
The product on the website is Razor Strop Leather, apologies I assure you the leather is a lot better than my Photography  
The Veritas Green Honing Compound is designed to be used by hand on leather strops and the majority of students that have used it do buy it. If you are interested it's on the website.
Cheers Peter


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

Peter Sefton":3jhq14af said:


> mac1012":3jhq14af said:
> 
> 
> > thanks for all the comments and feedback , its good that we can have a discussion on here wthout it getting into woeld war 3 !!
> ...



If the product contains wax as a vehicle (any at all) it is not correct for charging leather hand strops.

It should also be said that anybody using very fine media can skip stropping altogether. It is unnecessary. For folks wanting to polish steel there are several proprietary tubed polishes, silver creams, etc. which do a fine job. Wright's Silver Cream smeared lightly on an open page of an old phone book, tool catalog, or Kraft paper envelope is hard to beat. Otherwise, charge a linen strop with these. Charging ALWAYS means lightly, with restraint. If it becomes difficult to even identify what the strop is made of then it has essentially been ruined. Between leather, linen, etc. there's frankly an only barely rebuttable presumption that they should be used uncharged in the first place. It's nonsensical and almost an abomination to source a fine piece of leather or fine piece of linen and then proceed to smother it with a waxy buffing compound. One can easily make the case that a leather strop should only be charged once but if not that certainly very infrequently, the interval measured in years.

Any strop dressing should be creamy, well rubbed-in, and leave the leather itself still very much in play.

I like the AlOx powder on hard rubber; I use just enough to take the sheen off the rubber. My finest media is a black Ark so I have something to gain from the strop. A very light touch removes rag, doesn't "dub" the edge, and imparts a surprising brightness for the effort and time expended, which are next to nothing.


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

While a lot of people have re-purposed these buffing wheel compound sticks (if the vehicle is a fairly hard wax at room temp it's for use with buffing wheels) they are not the correct way to charge a hand strop. They just aren't. They generally result in a total coating of the leather making the leather itself irrelevant. And it's not irrelevant. A lot of people use these things and a lot of people are wrong on this.

If you can find any classical reference that advises charging a leather strop with wax or something containing wax I'd love to see it.[/quote]

It's certainly not a repurposing - LV specifically claim it's usable for hand honing. As you know, older references tend to be scanty on detail, especially detail that was considered "obvious" at the time, but I'll see what I can find.

Ah - in the midst of another "discussion" I'd already found this:



Henry Mayhew 1851":e1efmk0p said:


> There are twelve street-sellers of razor-paste, but they seem to prefer " working" the distant suburbs, or going on country rounds, as there are often only three in London. It is still vended, I am told, to clerks, who use it to sharpen their pen-knives, but the paste, owing to the prevalence of the use of steel pens, is now atmost a superfluity, compared to what it was. It is bought also, and frequently enough in public-houses, by working-men, as a means of "setting" their razors. The venders make the paste themselves, except two, who purchase of a street-seller. The ingredients are generally fuller's earth (Id.), *hog's lard (Id.),* and emery powder (2<Z.). The paste is sold in boxes carried on a tray, which will close and form a sort of case, like a backgammon board. The quantity I have given will make a dozen boxes (each sold at Id.), so that the profit is Id. in the Is., for to the id. paid for ingredients must be added Id., for the cost of a dozen boxes. The paste is announced as " warranted to put an edge to a razor or penknife superior to any thing ever before offered to the public." The street-sellers offer to prove this by sharpening any gentleman's penknife on the paste spread on a piece of soldier's old belt, which sharpening, when required, they accomplish readily enough. One of these paste-sellers, I was told, had been apprenticed to a barber; another had been a cutter, the remainder are of the ordinary class of street-sellers.
> 
> Calculating that 6 men " work" the metropolis daily, taking 2s. each per day (with Is. 2d. profit), we find 187/. the amount of the street outlay.



BugBear[/quote]

What you describe is perfect -- an abrasive in a fatty/oily base which combine to form a fairly thin paste which makes it easy to charge leather correctly - which means very lightly and well-rubbed in and essentially almost invisible to the eye. The green sticks are anything but....


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

Peter Sefton":3tnmj3cx said:


> mac1012":3tnmj3cx said:
> 
> 
> > thanks for all the comments and feedback , its good that we can have a discussion on here wthout it getting into woeld war 3 !!
> ...



Based on the instructions for use found on their website, the product appears to be for buffing wheels (most products in stick form are) and I'm sure it does a fine job in that context. I downloaded a copy of the PDF but can't seem to figure out how to attach it to this post.

Here's the link:

http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductInfo/EN/05M08.01EN.pdf

These are the instructions that accompany their .5 micron green chromium/oxide compound.


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## bugbear (8 Jan 2014)

CStanford":5qrxb8y5 said:


> Based on the instructions for use found on their website, the product appears to be for buffing wheels and I'm sure it does a fine job in that context. I downloaded a copy of the PDF but can't seem to figure out how to attach it to this post.
> 
> Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductInfo/EN/05M08.01EN.pdf



From the site:


> Used with a felt wheel or leather belt for power honing or with a leather strop for* hand honing*.





> For honing specialized tools, compound can be applied to wooden forms (blocks or dowel) or shaped leather for *hand honing. *



Derek Cohen got good results using it for hand stropping;

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... paste.html

BugBear


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

bugbear":37yk0zlz said:


> CStanford":37yk0zlz said:
> 
> 
> > Based on the instructions for use found on their website, the product appears to be for buffing wheels and I'm sure it does a fine job in that context. I downloaded a copy of the PDF but can't seem to figure out how to attach it to this post.
> ...



I'm quite sure that he did. :roll: After all, it is available through Lee Valley.

I'm not trying to take strop dressings out of your arsenal. By all means, dress your strop. Just use the right one if you're using leather. You are obviously being welcomed to believe that what works on a wheel spinning at a few thousand RPM is also perfect for hand stropping. That's unfortunate but a lot of people seem to be under the same impression.

I like the ingredients of the stick compound other than for the wax. Don't load your leather strop with wax. It makes no sense. If you need to strop at all you can get a better result from other products. Are you confusing stropping with polishing? They are not the same. One CAN be the result of the other but not necessarily. One can strop very effectively and impart no extra visible sheen at all. We are all like raccoons though, who doesn't like a little extra shine?

If you use very fine media - fine waterstones and the new ceramic hybrids then just polish on a powered wheel or with a tubed metal polish on linen or a piece of hard maple. You don't need leather at all. In that context it is entirely superfluous and out of context, and even more so when smothered in wax.

As I've said, I like AlOx powder which is dry. Carver's Yellowstone pretty much is too. Try it. Here's how to use it:

http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/f ... und-36904/

Suppliers are listed in the thread as well.

Get off the wax and you'll never go back.


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## bugbear (8 Jan 2014)

Could you actually be explicit on why you consider the various waxes to be poor carriers please? It's clearly something you consider so obvious, you haven't stated reasons!

BugBear


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## Preston (8 Jan 2014)

Flat piece of wood, a piece of leather, some rouge and bob's your uncle.


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

bugbear":2pkoc30i said:


> Could you actually be explicit on why you consider the various waxes to be poor carriers please? It's clearly something you consider so obvious, you haven't stated reasons!
> 
> BugBear



First, none of this applies to anybody using very fine honing media. Stropping is completely unnecessary in this instance. Somebody wanting to polish steel to remove waterstone haze can easily accomplish this in less than five seconds on an untreated linen wheel on a power buffer or a few seconds more on a lightly treated linen hand strop.

I think I've stated very explicitly why I don't like wax-based carriers on fine leather and linen hand strops. It obscures the nature of the materials. It ruins the attributes that they bring to the table.

*Sparingly applied* (see the L-V instructions) wax compound on a fast buffing wheel is wonderful. It melts and exposes the "good stuff." By melting, it takes itself out of the equation. It is just a liquid hydrocarbon at that point, much like the liquid hydrocarbons found in polishes like Autosol (though unlike wax they are a liquid at room temperature).

Most people even overcharge their buffing wheels. YOU WANT THE WAX TO MELT. COMPLETELY. ESSENTIALLY AS SOON AS THE TOOL TOUCHES THE WHEEL.

On a hand strop the stuff just sits there. You are stropping on a wax block in effect. The wax is in the way. Any 'good results' are in spite of, not caused by, the product itself. The wax will not allow the strop to straighten the edge and remove rag effectively as it otherwise could. You'd be well-advised to take the wax out of the equation when stropping by hand and understand what is supposed to happen to it when power buffing. These wax products CANNOT both be the best product on power wheels and on hand strops. It defies logic. It defies physics. The wax sticks have wax because a dry abrasive would fly off the wheel essentially in a puff of smoke. Wax sticks are for power machinery. Period. Any assertion otherwise is sales puffing. They are a poor substitute for other products just as easily available for hand stropping - dry abrasives, lapidary pastes and barber stropping pastes (both in a wide range of grits), valve grinding pastes, tubed and tubbed metal and silver polishes, etc. Mineral oil and rottenstone being practically just as good a solution.

Leather contains silica and is quite a fine stropping material in its own right. Wright's Silver Cream contains microcrystalline silica and is perfectly fine for charging leather, linen (silver enthusiasts polish their collection with worn-out linen napkins), or a brown Kraft paper grocery sack or "manilla" envelope. 

Polishing and stropping are not the same thing. They are not even intrinsically intertwined.

I could polish steel until the gleam burned my retina and not have properly stropped the edge.


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## Preston (8 Jan 2014)

I've had wonderful results from these strops for over 40 years and I've been using a very fine Japanese water stone for over 20 years, I still use the strop.

Judge them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from a thornbush or figs from thistles? Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

Preston":19xixqrk said:


> I've had wonderful results from these strops for over 40 years and I've been using a very fine Japanese water stone for over 20 years, I still use the strop.
> 
> Judge them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from a thornbush or figs from thistles? Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.



That's fantastic. I'd be very interested to know what sort of strop actual Japanese craftsmen use. And, of course, what they charge them with if anything.


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## rxh (8 Jan 2014)

Alec Tiranti sell buff hide strops and strop paste.


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## bugbear (8 Jan 2014)

CStanford":1uth45tp said:


> Polishing and stropping are not the same thing.



Thank you for the expansion on the wax; now can you expand on the above?!

To lob you a target - polishing is just a fine abrasive carried on a cloth (Brasso for the UK-ians) stropping is just a fine abrasive carried on leather (or linen) or even paper.

What's the big difference?

BugBear


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## Fromey (8 Jan 2014)

This discussion reminds me that a simple piece of photocopy paper with a squiggle of compound on it is a fine strop when placed on a flat surface.

Another thought, the business end of all this is the microscopic edge of the blade. Could it be that the wax is in fact being melted at that fine pressure point even under hand stropping? It immediately solidifies after the edge has passed. I have no quantitative data but I'm quite sure qualitatively that stropping on leather with stick honing compound gives me a sharper edge than on untreated leather.


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

bugbear":wo6csvez said:


> CStanford":wo6csvez said:
> 
> 
> > Polishing and stropping are not the same thing.
> ...



Stropping doesn't have anything to do with an added abrasive. Adding an abrasive to a strop is entirely optional and not always even desirable. Are you reading what I'm writing? Doesn't seem so....


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## Lons (8 Jan 2014)

Without getting into the which paste / compound to use, I've tried various bits of leather from a belt through old leather coat, armchair and thin craft leather offcuts and the best I found is a thick leather sole from a shoe repair stall. He actually gave it free.
I only occasionally strop my chisels so it's mostly for my carving tools and Ihave several sizes of dowel rod with thin leather glued on and some odd bits all used for inside of gouges.

I use white buffing soap and autosol btw.

Bob


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## MMUK (8 Jan 2014)

Have you thought about asking for an old strop at your local barber shop? That's where mine came from. It cost me a #2 all over (£4) but still cheaper than buying a new one


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## CStanford (8 Jan 2014)

Fromey":7fwwxhwu said:


> This discussion reminds me that a simple piece of photocopy paper with a squiggle of compound on it is a fine strop when placed on a flat surface.
> 
> Another thought, the business end of all this is the microscopic edge of the blade. Could it be that the wax is in fact being melted at that fine pressure point even under hand stropping? It immediately solidifies after the edge has passed. I have no quantitative data but I'm quite sure qualitatively that stropping on leather with stick honing compound gives me a sharper edge than on untreated leather.



If you're sure of it then it really doesn't matter. I have no explanation for it. If your fine stone is finer than a black Ark and your edges are materially improved by using a strop then I'd say you weren't using your finest stone particularly effectively. Otherwise, we are, as humans, programmed to believe that when we do something, anything, that there is an outcome. If you go to the trouble to strop then you want to believe that having done so actually made a difference. If you've never experienced the strop making an edge worse (for they easily can), then this little psychological trick may be in play. If you've ever seen a good barber strop an edge then you know he didn't pick the movement up on DAY 1 of barber school. Freehanded stropping is being presented as a skill easily acquired. It in fact might be as long as it's done on a piece of leather totally loaded to the point of being obscured entirely with half-micron paste. It's hard to do much damage (or much real stropping) on such a set up. One doesn't have to look hard on these boards to find beginners that take to freehanded stropping like a duck takes to water but barely seem to have jigged honing down, certainly not even mastered. How is that? They're flustered by an Eclipse jig but have got stropping down pat? Poppycock.

I pressed too hard on my rig the other day and blunted what I know was a pretty good edge off my fine stone. It happens. If it doesn't happen occasionally to folks reading this thread then they are under the influence of something other than reality. A strop that never blunts an edge through the inattentiveness of the user simply is not functioning as a strop, but only as a polishing medium. Nothing wrong with that, but there are better ways to polish steel than transferring a waxy goo to what once was a creditable piece of leather.

This applies to some, perhaps not you: I would be angry if I had close to $300 invested in a Shapton whatchamacallit finishing stone only to find that the same strop a chap that only had a Black Ark put a demonstrably better edge on my cutter. If the strop is that efficacious then we'd basically be ending up with the same edge (since the strop is the last thing to touch it) but you'd have spent a few hundred dollars more on your stone than I did on mine. Doesn't something sound amiss in this scenario? It does to me.

If ten bucks' worth of shoe leather and half a penny's worth of compound levels the playing field that much then so be it. I don't think it does, do you? Heck, maybe it does. What a joy!


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## bugbear (9 Jan 2014)

CStanford":yr3s613e said:


> bugbear":yr3s613e said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":yr3s613e said:
> ...



I'm reading very carefully - you have never defined stropping, and you have mentioned abrasives for strops. I would (truly) welcome explicit detail as to what you believe the action of stropping is.



CStanford":yr3s613e said:


> .
> .
> You strop with the lightest of pressure as the AlOx powder does all the work for you.
> .
> ...



That's an extensive list of statements about abrasives and particle sizes w.r.t. stropping, from which I infer that you view stropping as an abrasive process using fine particles (if they're not finer than your last stone you state there's no point), embedded on a slightly yielding substrate.

The only process other than abrading with successively finer grits I know of for sharpening is the type of cold forging done on a cabienet scraper by the burnisher, or by a butcher's steel on a (quite soft) knife.

How would you describe the actual action that stropping applies to the edge?

BugBear


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## JimF. (9 Jan 2014)

bugbear":3qn0p4cy said:


> I'm reading very carefully - you have never defined stropping, and you have mentioned abrasives for strops. I would (truly) welcome explicit detail as to what you believe the action of stropping is.
> 
> BugBear


+1
I would be interested too. At the moment I am completely perplexed...


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## MMUK (9 Jan 2014)

bugbear":2y2zswtw said:


> I'm reading very carefully - you have never defined stropping, and you have mentioned abrasives for strops. I would (truly) welcome explicit detail as to what you believe the action of stropping is.
> 
> BugBear




We have certain members who strop, especially when someone else abrades them :mrgreen:


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## Fromey (9 Jan 2014)

I use scary sharp and currently my last paper is 3 micron (which is approximately equivalent to an 8000 water stone according to the WH website). I have some 0.2 micron paper as well and would probably not bother to strop after using that.

Also, remember that stropping is not just for after honing but is a good way to refresh a blade during use.

I understand the point you're making. I've tried my paper cutting technique after the 3 micron paper and after stropping and find (qualitatively only and possibly subjectively only) that the stropping gives a better cut. I suspect it's a combination of refining the edge through abrasion plus polishing the upper section of the blade so that the exiting material meets less resistance (so technically not cutting better just allowing the blade to move more freely through/past a substrate). If your argument that the abrading elements are embedded in wax is correct, then maybe that is why stropping works; only a few particles are present to abrade the cutting edge. Just like lightening up on the pressure one uses when sharpening in order to get an effectively finer honing.

I still seriously think it's possible that at the very small scale of the cutting edge and considering how fine a point it is, that there may be sufficient heat generated from the friction of the blade passing along the leather to temporarily melt the wax. Considering how easy it is to melt the stuff and how easy it is to make noticeable heat through friction, I see no reason why you would need thousands of RPM to get this effect.


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## MIGNAL (9 Jan 2014)

I've been using a 8,000G waterstone for around 12 years. There is certainly a difference in the edge sharpness between stopping at the stone and ending with a strop - Green paste or not.


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## Corneel (9 Jan 2014)

I have always wondered, what does a strop do? 

I use an 8000 waterstone as my finest, and don't strop. But I also have some oilstones, and am not happy with the results, so I'd like to invest some time into learning how to strop. It would be helpfull to know what happens when you strop.


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## MIGNAL (9 Jan 2014)

Well on a practical level (and what I've noticed over the years): I can shave hairs after the 8,000 but there's a touch of 'grab', in other words you can actually _feel _the blade cutting the hair. Strop/Polish after the 8,000 and you should merely _see _the hairs being cut, not feel them.


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## CStanford (9 Jan 2014)

Stropping after honing is simply removing rag left by one's finest stone; anything over 8,000 grit equivalent really leaves no rag. Stropping between honing is straightening an edge that has started to go off. This takes more skill than a couple of swipes to drag off rag. It's probably easier just to go back to one's finest stone for a quick touchup. Removing rag requires nothing more than a slightly abrasive, completely untreated material. Leather is often chosen. It can impart some polish as it contains silica.

Adding an abrasive is not at all compulsory for stropping to remove rag. *If using over 8,000 grit equivalent stones then there is no rag to remove* and stropping, per se, is completely unnecessary. If you want to polish up a tad bit then use a strop paste like Dovo, a cream-based metal polish, a dry abrasive, etc., or buff briefly on a wheel charged with a green wax chromium/oxide stick. The oxide in the stick is aluminum oxide which is available in the dry. You can charge leather with the dry powder or a flat piece of hard wood like maple. Your choice. 

Buffing on a linen, muslin, or compressed felt wheel with a wax stick (you actually might not want to charge compressed felt) gives the best result, by far, once learned. If you want to hand strop by all means do it. Just consider using an appropriate dressing for hand powered stropping. Or none at all.

The wax stick is a great product. Just use it on a buffing wheel. If you think it does a good job on a hand strop wait until you try it on wheel. The pastes give a better result for hand powered stropping.

If you're concerned that a very fine stropping or even polishing compound might have a higher grit equivalency than your finest stone, then the whole exercise no matter what you call it - stropping, buffing, or polishing is probably moot. All you are experiencing at that point is likely the placebo effect. You have a very fine stone and the edge is unlikely to be improved at all by any further treatment. In that case I would simply say, enjoy it, your investment in very fine honing media is paying off. Don't waste time, money, and effort at a buffer, strop, or anything else.

Clear enough?


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## Corneel (9 Jan 2014)

Thanks.

What would you use after a translucent arkansas? A bare or a treated leather stop?
And what in between honings on the stone?

The oilstones are for gouges and such, and for cold weather, when using waterstones freezes my fingers.


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## Lons (9 Jan 2014)

> Stropping after honing is simply removing rag left by one's finest stone



Yebut....I don't use a strop for that reason. The chisel after fine stone is easily sharp enough for my personal needs. What the strop does for me is 2 things (remember I'm talking carving chisels especially).

1). Stropping polishes the bevel which is important when cutting hardwoods as it "slides" through the timber more easily and leaves a polished surface on the cut.

2). Using it regularly by touching it up whilst working keeps the edge cutting for longer between sharpening.

Works for me, but each to his own and not worth arguing about surely  

Bob


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## DTR (9 Jan 2014)

Fromey":cvcoz8p9 said:


> I still seriously think it's possible that at the very small scale of the cutting edge and considering how fine a point it is, that there may be sufficient heat generated from the friction of the blade passing along the leather to temporarily melt the wax. Considering how easy it is to melt the stuff and how easy it is to make noticeable heat through friction, I see no reason why you would need thousands of RPM to get this effect.



I'm sure I read somewhere that, at a tiny level, the stylus of a record player melts a portion of the groove as it passes over it due to the tracking force being concentrated onto the stylus point....


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## CStanford (9 Jan 2014)

Lons":2xwg7ati said:


> > Stropping after honing is simply removing rag left by one's finest stone
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, not really IMO (and others, see link below). Stropping to remove rag and the vestiges of a burr are best done without the insinuation of a polishing media beyond that found in the leather itself. Stropping to remove rag and burr are not necessary with any media over an 8,000 grit equivalent. This bears constant repeating. It's probably not even necessary to impart any additional polish but if you insist:

If you need to polish metal, then get a two-sided barber's stop (leather and canvas). Ignore the leather side except for spanking your children or grandchildren as it might apply. Charge the canvas side with Dovo gray paste and polish to your heart's content.

Or charge a wheel with a wax stick, clearly the fastest way to a high polish. Mere seconds. Touch tool to the wheel, bevel side only. Say your full name and street address aloud. You're done.

http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html

Maurice Fraser:

"The purpose of stropping is not to abrade more metal, but rather to continue bending, flexing, fatiguing, and burnishing off the miniscule metal strands still clinging to the edge of the blade after the burr breaks off. If you sharpen with waterstones and use a "gold" 8000 grit stone as a final step, stropping is not necessary." End quote.

8,000 grit has become quaint, to say the least, since he wrote the article and authored the DVD below:

http://www.amazon.com/Sharpening-Woodwo ... ice+fraser


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## Racers (9 Jan 2014)

Well that's his opinion, its not mine I use Autosol on the smooth side of leather and it gives a better finish (shiner) than 8000 grit and a sharper tool.

The thing is we all do things differently but end up making our tools sharp.

Pete


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## CStanford (9 Jan 2014)

Racers":1bkdhch7 said:


> Well that's his opinion, its not mine I use Autosol on the smooth side of leather and it gives a better finish (shiner) than 8000 grit and a sharper tool.
> 
> The thing is we all do things differently but end up making our tools sharp.
> 
> Pete



No arguments from me. At least you realize that you're polishing and not stropping, and using an appropriate compound for doing it by hand, rather than the wax buffing sticks.

You'd get better results on felt or linen but if you like smooth leather then don't change a thing.

The effect from polishing is very fleeting, but you can keep going back for more. Polishing an incompletely finished edge is like wearing cologne after two weeks of not bathing. If you're using an 8,000 grit stone then your edges are 'finished' by any reasonable standard. Polishing up is a bit of icing on the cake.


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## Lons (9 Jan 2014)

CStanford":24f07pv4 said:


> Racers":24f07pv4 said:
> 
> 
> > Well that's his opinion, its not mine I use Autosol on the smooth side of leather and it gives a better finish (shiner) than 8000 grit and a sharper tool.
> ...



Well I'm exactly the same as Pete and I don't agree with your analogy of wearing cologne which is a ridiculous comparison IMHO, (I said I wasn't going to argue #-o ).

I polish the bevel for the reasons I stated and when the edge loses it's sharpness I soon know when it's time to use the stone. I strop by hand (mostly) because it's quick and convenient, I own a Tormek T7 so have an excellent means of powered leather wheel should I so desire.

As I said - each to his own - we all use the method that we've found works for us and whilst I try to keep an open mind there seems to be a hell of a lot of over complication and bullsh*t flying around sometimes. 
Unless you're a sharpening freak or a student doing a thesis on the relationship of a steel edge to abrasive then if the tool cuts the way you want it to, what's the problem?

Bob


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## Peter Sefton (9 Jan 2014)

Well said Bob +1 for keeping it simple and whatever works for you. Hands strops have been used for generations for good reasons they work.
Peter


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## CStanford (9 Jan 2014)

Lons":3gauhfji said:


> CStanford":3gauhfji said:
> 
> 
> > Racers":3gauhfji said:
> ...



I've read your post and I don't think we disagree on a single point. I polish too. I'm not a sharpening freak at all. I hone for a burr on a No. 1 Washita, then move to a Black Ark, and then *most times* to the strop. I usually have to strop. A black Ark is just not fine enough, for chisels certainly not. I don't always strop a jack plane iron. I charge a hard rubber strop with AlOx powder which is a fantastic polishing media. I mentioned this in an earlier post in this thread. I easily have less than $200 invested in my entire sharpening kit, including decrepit Craftsman 6" grinder. Pretty simple. Pretty minimalist. I probably have the simplest kit for honing of anybody who has posted in this thread.

I have honed with very fine media - lapping films and sandpaper. They did a good job put I just felt a tug to go back to the stones. When honing on these products the strop added nothing at all. It was more apt to ruin what was accomplished on the finest film.


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## bugbear (10 Jan 2014)

CStanford":1gsg415j said:


> I easily have less than $200 invested in my entire sharpening kit, including decrepit Craftsman 6" grinder. Pretty simple. Pretty minimalist. I probably have the simplest kit for honing of anybody who has posted in this thread.



If we're playing the inverse snobbery game, I think I'm going to win. My normal shaprneing kit cost me around 10 GPB (*)

BugBear

(hand grinder, oilstones and and a "loose abrasive system", all second hand from car boot sales at 1 or 2 quid a piece)


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## bugbear (10 Jan 2014)

CStanford":2yyguivh said:


> Maurice Fraser:
> 
> _"The purpose of stropping is not to abrade more metal, but rather to continue bending, flexing, fatiguing, and burnishing off the miniscule metal strands still clinging to the edge of the blade after the burr breaks off. If you sharpen with waterstones and use a "gold" 8000 grit stone as a final step, stropping is not necessary." End quote.
> _



I'm assuming that's the mechanism of stropping that you believe; thanks for the information. I will point out that "burnishing" is quite unlike the other actions he lists.

BugBear


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## CStanford (10 Jan 2014)

Bernard Jones (ed.) in The Complete Woodworker states:

"After the oil has been wiped off, the tool should be stropped to remove any wire edge that may still exist and make the surfaces of the tool smooth, and therefore give it a keener edge. Some workmen have a knack of stropping it on the palm of their hand, but beginners are not advised to attempt it. Instead, they should use a strap [sic?] dressed with crocus powder and tallow." End quote.

So, stropping on the palm apparently could be considered sufficient (it probably is in plenty of cases) but beginners are not encouraged to do so presumably to prevent the possibility of cuts.

Crocus powder (iron oxide/ferric oxide) and tallow probably make a fine strop dressing. I don't see anything about adding wax in the Jones reference.

From our friends at Wikipedia (I assume this substance is what Jones is referring to) sounds like it would do a bang-up job:

"A very fine powder of ferric oxide is known as "jeweler's rouge", "red rouge", or simply rouge. It is used to put the final polish on metallic jewelry and lenses, and historically as a cosmetic. Rouge cuts more slowly than some modern polishes, such as cerium(IV) oxide, but is still used in optics fabrication and by jewelers for the superior finish it can produce. When polishing gold, the rouge slightly stains the gold, which contributes to the appearance of the finished piece. Rouge is sold as a powder, paste, laced on polishing cloths, or solid bar (with a wax or grease binder). Other polishing compounds are also often called "rouge", even when they do not contain iron oxide. Jewelers remove the residual rouge on jewelry by use of ultrasonic cleaning. Products sold as "stropping compound" are often applied to a leather strop to assist in getting a razor edge on knives, straight razors, or any other edged tool."

Here's how to use jeweler's rouge that comes in stick form. It is applied to a wheel:

http://www.pjtool.com/jewelers-rouge-po ... pound.aspx


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## G S Haydon (10 Jan 2014)

mac1012":23bfbaw9 said:


> hi I have been looking for leather strops to buy I have seen one on the tool post here
> 
> http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grindin ... stems.html
> 
> ...



To find mine I went to our local saddlers and asked if they had an off cut suitable to make a strop. They showed me a piece of leather and I said it looked about right. I said how much, they said two pounds. I bought it, dabbed a bit of autosol on it, used it, it worked. Next......


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## CStanford (10 Jan 2014)

That's good and so treated is probably still easily identifiable at quick glance as an actual piece of leather (and not a growing blob of green stuff) and retains the efficacy that comes with a good piece of leather.


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## woodpig (10 Jan 2014)

Made this ages ago but not got round to using it yet...


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## Lons (10 Jan 2014)

I bet the OP is confused now! :wink: 

His straightforward question results in quotes from old publications and Wikipedia which are after all just third party opinions and certainly not gospel.

If, I for one wanted to read such articles (and I have read several) then I would take the time to look them up myself. If I want purely personal opinion and experience then I ask on here where it's usually forthcoming and genuine answers from knowlegeable members without all the extra baggage that seems occasionally to surface and appears tobe purely for the sake of argument.

It isn't rocket science and the bottom line as already stated is if it works use it - simple. Stropping works and IMO works better with a mild abrasive. Any subtle differences probably wouldn't be noticed by most people and definitely not a beginner.

This thread has become extremely boring and not one I'll be contributing to again though it might be interesting to see who can't resist the last word :wink: 

Bob


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## CStanford (10 Jan 2014)

Here's the last word on dressings/polishes:

Monkey Jam Axle Polish:

Magnesium oxide (*.05 micron*) in a petroleum carrier.


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## GazPal (11 Jan 2014)

The last word is "if it works for you, use it"  

Chamois leather glued to a flat plate (Timber or metal) serves well for stropping when partnered with stropping paste/crayon, or visit a saddler's/leather worker's shop and ask if they have any butt leather off-cuts. Thickness doesn't really matter and tool edges needn't match the quality you'd expect from a straight razor.

I'm only just into my second block of stropping paste by "Starkie & Starkie" in around 20 years and can't complain. It's pail blue in colour and I haven't a clue regarding the recipe they use, but it works just fine. Simply add a little to your strop if the final edge polish begins to take longer than usual.

I strop using the finer/face side of the leather, but what works for me may not work for you/others, so be prepared to experiment a little. Sharpening kit needn't cost much and you can achieve excellent - working edge - results from an inexpensive combination India stone and home made strop. Just remember to hone/whet edges on stones and keep grinding for the grinding wheel and when an edge has been damaged or you need to extend the primary bevel (If you use primary and secondary bevels).


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## dann (11 Jan 2014)

scary sharp to 8000 on glass, autosol on leather....


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## bugbear (11 Jan 2014)

Another thread where everybody wants the last word...

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

BugBear


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## dann (11 Jan 2014)

Do you think?


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2014)

So childish when that happens


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## carlb40 (11 Jan 2014)

Scary sharp to white - 10,000 + on granite. Strop with razor strop fungus on home made oak paddle. :mrgreen:


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2014)

That should do it


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## carlb40 (11 Jan 2014)

It's working so far 

All the lads at work can't believe how sharp i get my blades and chisels LOL


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2014)

I am just so pleased this has turned into a sensible debate, it was becoming very tedious :wink:


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## carlb40 (11 Jan 2014)

Indeed Peter


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2014)

Doh
(some times less is more)


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## carlb40 (11 Jan 2014)

More the merrier i say


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## Peter Sefton (11 Jan 2014)

:idea: You must have fallen asleep by now


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## carlb40 (12 Jan 2014)

Indeed, but i am awake now


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Jan 2014)

Blimey - are you chaps still going? If you're not careful, the Mods will be throwing a strop.... :lol:


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## carlb40 (12 Jan 2014)

Nothing will strop us now :mrgreen:


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## bugbear (13 Jan 2014)

I was thinking about this over the weekend, and realised that even if the postulated non-abrasive-stropping-action is applicable to removing the burr/rag left by stones of less than 8000 JIS grit, this only applies to the first strop after the stone.

Further edge maintaining "stropping", such as carvers find so useful, are obviously *not* removing something left by a stone. Since they obviously do something, it seems logical to infer a simple abrasive process.

BugBear


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## Lons (13 Jan 2014)

bugbear":21qpykpi said:


> I was thinking about this over the weekend, BugBear



You need to get out more Bugbear :lol: :lol: 

Bob


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## RADCOM (17 Jul 2019)

What a fantastic thread  . I found this thread as I was looking for the optimum thickness of stropping leather.
As a sharpening noob I have learnt the difference between polishing and stropping....(I think :roll: ) as well as the existence of numerous compounds. Gentlemen it is an honour to have read such a challenging debate with no expletives =D> .


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## transatlantic (17 Jul 2019)

RADCOM":1m3tjgof said:


> What a fantastic thread  . I found this thread as I was looking for the optimum thickness of stropping leather.
> As a sharpening noob I have learnt the difference between polishing and stropping....(I think :roll: ) as well as the existence of numerous compounds. Gentlemen it is an honour to have read such a challenging debate with no expletives =D> .



Can you summarise?


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## Bm101 (17 Jul 2019)

Never strop believing.


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## rafezetter (18 Jul 2019)

Lons":mcshsirv said:


> (in 2014) This thread has become extremely boring and not one I'll be contributing to again though it might be interesting to see who can't resist the last word :wink:
> 
> Bob



Well most of page 5 was full of "last words", but currently it's me  but I'm sure someone else will be along shortly....

Can someone strop this merry-go-round? I wanna get off.


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