# How deep should the housing joint (?) be for a drawer base



## el_Pedr0 (7 Sep 2021)

Hi all,

I'm designing some drawers for my wardrobe - about 800mm x 500mm x 140mm deep. The sides and back will be made from 15mm thick solid walnut, front from 19mm walnut, and the base from 6mm veneered mdf. How deep should I router the channel in the sides, front and back to slide the drawer base in?

Thanks


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## harryc (7 Sep 2021)

6mm is enough.


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## Cabinetman (7 Sep 2021)

It’s quite subjective, but I would say 6 or 7mm and I would make the groove in the front the same as the sides, if it was me I would have the back shorter so that you can slide the base in afterwards and screw up Into the back.
Traditionally the grain in the base would have gone front to back and in a drawer that wide you would have a muntin, ( a thicker piece of wood to help support the base).
It’s a groove by the way, a housing normally goes across the grain, as if you were supporting/ sliding a shelf in for instance. Ian


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## Sgian Dubh (7 Sep 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Traditionally the grain in the base would have gone front to back and in a drawer that wide you would have a muntin ...


I suspect a wee brain fart. I think you probably meant to say the long grain normally goes from one side to the opposite side. A typo maybe? Slainte.


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## Cabinetman (7 Sep 2021)

Did I really write that? Doh! Yes obviously t' other way


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## el_Pedr0 (8 Sep 2021)

Further questions:

1) Do I need to leave some extra space in the groove to allow for the mdf drawer bottom to expand with humidity/temp? If so, how much extra do I need to allow in total in each direction?

2) does a muntin deserve a particular joint like a mortise and tenon, or would it be sufficient to simply stick it on. (That feels stupid even as I write it - I suspect I know the answer).

3) can the muntin be mdf or ought it to be a piece of solid wood?


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## Cabinetman (8 Sep 2021)

1, no extra space needed as ply movement is virtually nonexistent 
2,I think you can get away with it under the plywood, just a tongue into the drawer front and screwed up into the drawer back, in olden times the drawer bottom was in two halves which slotted into grooves in the sides of the muntin.
3, a piece of solid wood really, anything will do. Unless you want to make a feature? Of it, as in the old days, then it will show in the bottom of the drawer. Ian


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## el_Pedr0 (8 Sep 2021)

Thanks @Cabinetman ,though the base is 6mm mdf not ply.


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## recipio (8 Sep 2021)

Is that 140 mm high rather than deep ? If not you will end up with wide and shallow drawers which will rack as you use them. To answer the question. about 5 mm is fine for a groove in 15 mm timber. Of course if you let the mdf into the back it will all have to be assembled in one go. Otherwise you could shorten the width of the back so that the base is simply screwed into it. Many will cut the base extra long so that it hits the back of the wardrobe and acts as a stop.
Ply would be more durable than mdf.
( I'm assuming you are not going to use metal runners ) Lastly its a bit pricey using walnut for the drawer sides - a cheaper wood or even baltic ply would give a bit of contrast with the front but that's entirely down to you.


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## el_Pedr0 (8 Sep 2021)

Sorry - yes 140mm high.

I don't think I mind too much about assembly all in one go (he says never having made a drawer before). I was kinda thinking that the drawer bottom would actually help keep everything square during glue up. I'm going to be using Blum movento runners, so they'll do the stopping for me.

Primary reason for choice of mdf over ply is that mdf is cheaper and I'm already using 6mm mdf for the cabinet backs. Therefore it will be quite a saving not having to purchase a whole sheet of a different material...

...However, this is meant to look, feel and perform as high end as I can reasonably make it (hence why I'm going to first price it up with real walnut drawer sides). And so if an extra 100 or 200 quid on walnut veneered ply drawer bottoms is clearly the right decision, then that's what I should do.

Are ply bottoms clearly the right way to go?


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## Cabinetman (8 Sep 2021)

Oh yes MDF, well it’s veneered which stiffens it up no end so it will be fine in drawer bottoms, particularly if you fit a muntin as discussed, I’ve never glued drawer bases in so can’t comment but I can’t see why it wouldn’t work and you could do away with the muntin probably then.


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## recipio (8 Sep 2021)

The standard depth for hanging clothes in a wardrobe is 600 mm so if 500 mm is the depth it will be a bit tight. If the drawers are 800 wide you will definitely need a solid wood muntin for support and veneered mdf would be fine as the base. The muntin can be let into the underside of the front and back or if you really want high end construction you might consider using a profile and scribe router bit on the router table ( if you have one ) which will machine all the joints of a base frame and the groove for the mdf - a bit like making a panel door.


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## el_Pedr0 (8 Sep 2021)

Oh - bottoms aren't glued?

In the meantime - I've spoken to the hardwood store, and actually if I buy a sheet of veneer, a sheet of heat activated glue and some wpb ply it might not be so much more expensive (though I've still got to run the numbers).

@recipio
The hanging part of the wardrobe is 520mm deep. But it works out OK because there's no back (so it saves a bit of space that would otherwise be a void), but mostly because there are no doors. It looks fine though - I've done one to these dimensions before and the clothes don't jutt out.

I've just today bought a good second hand router (a massive upgrade from my wobbly lidl thing). Planning on doing dovetailed joints for some of the drawers and have a Leigh jig to help - because the last dovetail I did was 30 years ago so out of practice to say the least. Don't have a router table at the mo...


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## el_Pedr0 (8 Sep 2021)

@recipio Re: profile and scribe for the muntin. Are you suggesting the the muntin doesn't just sit below, but that the bottom is split into two parts, sitting in a groove either side of the muntin? Like the 'in the old days' construction that @Cabinetman refers to in his point 3 above?


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## recipio (9 Sep 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> @recipio Re: profile and scribe for the muntin. Are you suggesting the the muntin doesn't just sit below, but that the bottom is split into two parts, sitting in a groove either side of the muntin? Like the 'in the old days' construction that @Cabinetman refers to in his point 3 above?



Yes. A muntin should be about 18 mm thick to offer real support. 6mm grooves in the sides take the mdf so its exposed on the upper side of the base. Putting it under the base means it will be thin - more like 8 mm. The mdf should be glued in. This was the traditional way to make a chest of drawers as of course the drawers run on the side of the frame. If you are using metal runners you could use an easier construction - using a Leigh jig will add another learning curve so stand back and mull over it. You know that if you use metal runners you will need a false front to hide the gap between the drawer sides and the side panel. ? Just sayin'


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## el_Pedr0 (9 Sep 2021)

False front hopefully isn't necessary in this case because I've got 'fascias' (not sure what to call them) on the sides of the cabinet. So I can make the drawer sides flush with the edge of the draw fronts, and the gap due to the runner is hidden by the fascia. - Just realised I haven't posted a picture in this thread so here it is:







Leigh jig learning curve - I'm up for that (he says naiively).


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## el_Pedr0 (9 Sep 2021)

recipio said:


> If you are using metal runners you could use an easier construction



Please could you elaborate a bit. Some of the complexity I'm doing conciously because of a benefit (e.g. dovetails = strength and beauty). But there's probably a lot that I'm not aware of that's unnecesarily complex.


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## recipio (9 Sep 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> Please could you elaborate a bit. Some of the complexity I'm doing conciously because of a benefit (e.g. dovetails = strength and beauty). But there's probably a lot that I'm not aware of that's unnecesarily complex.



With respect, you are probably making the job too complex. Dovetails are nice but a bit over the top for wardrobes with utilitarian metal runners. ( I had a Leigh Jig but gave up on it as it made clunky industrial style dovetails ).
There will be a 12 mm gap between the face frame and the drawer side and that needs to be hidden. Most people use an overlaid drawer front as you can adjust it when the drawer is in place . I'm pretty sure that you can do the same with insert drawer fronts with careful fitting but haven't done so personally.
Fitting side metal runners can be tricky and you could use undermounted runners instead. The problem is really that the costs add up and you might even need the specialised drilling jigs for the Blum range that professional fitters use.
If you are going to commit £1000 + to the project I would do your research thoroughly and maybe make a mock up of a drawer fitting. Accuracy is everything with these projects.


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## el_Pedr0 (9 Sep 2021)

Thanks recipio. Appreciate the advice and sanity check.

I'll be using the undermounted blum movento runners. This means that the beauty of the drawers wont be spoilt by the utilitarian metal runners. The blum runners also give a degree of adjustment themselves, giving me a mm or two's grace. I recognise that this is an expensive route, and yes, my ballpark estimate was around £1000+. It might sound a bit mad, but I'm confident it's in keeping with the spec of the house and is a sound investment.

Actually very keen to finish the sketchup model which will then give me quite a precise cutting list that I can get costed up.

Agree with the need for accuracy. I'm definitely going pretty far on the planning stage. and I'll make sure I do some mocks of the critical joints and components.


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## Sgian Dubh (9 Sep 2021)

Sketch for a typical drawer muntin, this being of the quadrant pattern that matches quadrant style drawer slips rather than the flush pattern that matches flush slips. Slainte.


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## el_Pedr0 (9 Sep 2021)

That is awesome.

<hurries off to research quadrant and flush slips>


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## el_Pedr0 (9 Sep 2021)

OK. Getting a bit more up to speed with drawer making history from the 1700s onwards.

My original proposal was for drawer sides of 15mm and movento undermounted metal runners, which I'm still happy with. As such I don't need to worry about a groove on the outside for the runners, and only need to concern myself with a groove on the inside for the bottom. I'm working on the assumption that 15mm walnut can happily accommodate a 6mm groove for the bottom and that I won't need slips. (I suspect Slainte mentioned slips in reference to the style, rather than necessarily suggesting that I would need them?)

So now it comes to the muntin, which by the sounds of things I won't be able to avoid on a 800mm wide drawer. As I understand it, the need for the muntin has nothing to do with the thickness of my drawer sides (unlike the need for slips), but is simply a function of the width of the drawer and the thinness and material of the bottom. My build is contemporary in style, so I think a flush muntin would suit it best.

As I undertand it:
* MDF base will be ok because it'll be supported by the muntin
* Base will be grooved into the front, sides and back (a muntin removes the possibility of cutting the back short and simply screwing the base up into the back.)
* Muntin should be made of solid wood and ought to come up at least to the surface of the draw bottom to be effective
* I need to acquire a router table and appropriate bits (and skills)

Any corrections welcome.


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## Cabinetman (9 Sep 2021)

No, fitting a muntin doesn’t remove the possibility of cutting the back short and screwing up into the back, if I was at home I could find you a pic from a 1950's woodworker, they used to do really good exploded drawings of construction details.


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## John15 (10 Sep 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Sketch for a typical drawer muntin, this being of the quadrant pattern that matches quadrant style drawer slips rather than the flush pattern that matches flush slips. Slainte.
> 
> View attachment 117469​


Many thanks for this detail of a muntin - much clearer than most I've seen.

John


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## recipio (10 Sep 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> OK.
> * I need to acquire a router table and appropriate bits (and skills)
> 
> Any corrections welcome.



Decisions Decisions. Even experienced woodworkers like to use the _optimum _method of construction and that comes down to the tools available.
If I may offer one last tip - profile and scribe bits come as a single bit or a double bit kit. The single bit does it all and is much easier to use. You will need a 1/2" router in a table of course.


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## Sgian Dubh (10 Sep 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> I'm designing some drawers for my wardrobe - about 800mm x 500mm x 140mm deep. The sides and back will be made from 15mm thick solid walnut, front from 19mm walnut, and the base from 6mm veneered mdf. How deep should I router the channel in the sides, front and back to slide the drawer base in?


Outside the fact that I provided you with a sketch of a muntin just to let you know what they can look like, I really don't think you don't need a muntin in the drawers you're planning to make. You can include one if you like just for the challenge, and for aesthetic reasons perhaps, but for a drawer only 800 mm wide to carry the load that clothes are likely to impose the need for a muntin isn't there. I've made many a drawer longer than that, up to just over a metre long, that didn't include a muntin, and they've all worked fine without appreciable sagging of the 6 mm thick MDF bottom faced with maple on both sides. The only weight such drawers carry is folded up clothes, e.g., T shirts, socks, underpants, and the like.

Now, if you were planning to make drawers of that width by perhaps 500 mm deep and 150 mm high to carry a heavy load, such as, er, hmm(?), I don't know, CDs, metal parts, cans or jars of food, and anything else heavy you can think of, then perhaps a muntin would be beneficial. Slainte.


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## Sgian Dubh (11 Sep 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> <hurries off to research quadrant and flush slips>


Regarding slip forms, you might find *this link useful.* There's no mention of muntins in the link, but below is a better, reworked doodle of a typical muntin form, in this case, a quadrant form - it's basically the same as the last one, but a bit less smudged, and perhaps slightly prettier, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Cabinetman (12 Sep 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Regarding slip forms, you might find *this link useful.* There's no mention of muntins in the link, but below is a better, reworked doodle of a typical muntin form, in this case, a quadrant form - it's basically the same as the last one, but a bit less smudged, and perhaps slightly prettier, ha, ha. Slainte.
> 
> View attachment 117562​


 Thank you Richard, that’s quite a masterclass on drawer construction and will be very useful to many on here, I feel though that it would be better utilised in a more permanent easy to find reference section. Ian


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## recipio (12 Sep 2021)

As Sgian Dubh says if the width is 800 mm and will only be used for clothes then you probably don't need a muntin. I tend to be over cautious and assume someone will drop a dumbbell into anything I make. ! Don't forget that if you double veneer some 6 mm mdf it will end up at 7.2 mm thick and you have to have some way to machine a groove for it. Pre veneered mdf/ply finishing at 6 mm will make life easier.


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## Sgian Dubh (13 Sep 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Richard, that’s quite a masterclass on drawer construction and will be very useful to many on here, I feel though that it would be better utilised in a more permanent easy to find reference section. Ian


That's very kind of you to say that. To be honest I don't really think of it as being masterful because as far as I'm concerned it's just a round up of some common drawer forms and some thoughts and observations on the subject. It omits a lot that I suppose could be aired, but then the document would get pretty large. Permanent and easy to find? I suppose those qualities sort of exist already, just so long as the document is available at its current location which of course could change in an instant, the internet being what it is, ha, ha. Slainte.


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