# Veritas Mark II Honing Guide



## Alf

Not so much a review, more some observations. It’s no good kidding ourselves that I know anything about the technicalities of sharpening and so forth, so this is just a collection of things that have struck me _so far_ about this guide. I anticipate, as time goes on, my view may change slightly with more familiarity, but after quite a “sharpening fest”, here’s what I noticed so far. If you get confused just look at the pictures. It’s what I do…

First, some background information. I used this guide on a double-sided diamond stone and a freshly flattened, fine, natural oilstone. The former lubricated with paraffin and the latter with Neatsfoot oil. My previous honing guide experience is with a narrow-wheeled side-gripping guide of the “Eclipse” type, and the Stanley two-wheel model; I‘ve never used the MkI guide. <Pause while small children stop and point at this phenomenon who’s never used the MkI> By and large I hone freehand more often than not, finding guides more on the restrictive side of the scale than the helpful one. I’ll try and keep that prejudice out of things as far as possible, but I’m only human (No jokes, please. I have a piece of paper to prove it  ) so you should be aware it exists. This example is one of the first twenty assembled from production parts, but came with instructions still in draft form and non-retail packaging. 




_Clockwise from the top: blade carrier, roller carrier and registration jig._

The very first thing that struck me with this guide is the _weight_. This is one heavy bit of kit for a honing guide, at 1lb 9oz all in. That’s often a good sign of quality in a tool, and this is no exception. Materials are die-cast zinc/aluminium alloy, brass and steel; all appear to be finely machined and the shiny black finish is immaculate. It consists of three parts; a roller carrier, blade carrier and registration jig. Having the roller and blade clamp separately allows adjustment in the distance between the roller and the blade edge, which gives plenty of flexibility in what blade lengths and angles can be maintained with this guide. 




_No, I don’t know the technical term, but the bumpy bits register in the valley bits to get repeatable settings for the three roller/clamp positions. Sort of like an oversized Incra jig tooth system. Maybe. :?_




_Which then gets locked off by tightening up the blade carrier locking knob. You could say “Initiate the BCLK”, but on the whole probably better not…_

The registration jig takes the old idea of a length and/or squareness stop to make angle setting repeatable and transfers it from a bench top actually onto the jig. For the actual technicalities of the whole thing, you’re best bet is to take a look at the instructions here - except they‘re not there. Oh woe is me! 8-[ Well the description will explain it better than I can, even so. The maximum width it can take is 2 7/8” and 15/32” in thickness. Ah, don’tcha just love fractions of an inch… Erm, about 73mm x 10mm in new money.

Setting it up to use is pretty straightforward. A selection of stop points for various angles is provided on the registration jig, so it’s a simple matter to select the desired one,




_Here it is set up for a 30° bevel at the standard angle (yellow) setting for a 2“ wide blade._

fasten the jig on the front,




_See how it makes a sliding dovetail? Loosening off the knob on the reg jig is best done only slightly, or the thing slops around a bit._

slip the blade in to register against the stop and the side,





and tighten the clamp.




_Yes, all right. So you'd need to put it back together again _first_ :roll: _

The latter needs to be tightened a little on each side at a time to avoid skewing the clamp bar - which I personally find a major main in the neck. It’s not an uncommon method, and I understand why it has to be done, but it’s jolly annoying all the same. The registration jig is supposed to line up roughly with the scale on the blade carrier for the width of blade you’re honing, which wasn’t difficult, but did get me hunting for the 6” rule more often than not. I anticipate that’ll be less of a problem with practice, and with fewer tools…  But in the meantime I might draw a rough scale on the “spare” side of the reg jig, just to make life a little easier. One of the more simple pleasures I enjoyed was the fact the blade clamp is designed to stay open even when you hold the guide upside down. Nice. 





_Anyway_, you then remove the reg jig; taking care to avoid cutting your fingers, which I nearly did a couple of times #-o ; and hone. Easy.




_Nice pink non-slip mat, eh? Very girlie. :roll: _

As long as you don’t want a cambered blade, ‘cos that wide roller (almost 2” width bears on the stone) just will not let you hone anything but square. I know that’d be a plus point for a lot of users, so heigh ho. :lol: 

Ergonomically it’s pretty comfortable to use; there are natural places to rest your thumbs and no nasty edges. 





I did feel slightly overwhelmed with the multitude of brass knobs at one point, but that passed with further familiarity. I don’t believe wooden knobs will be offered as an option, but you could always ask… One drawback to the sleek finish and using oilstones was it took on all the attributes of a bar of soap in a bath, and it hit the deck at least twice. :shock: No damage done because it bounced on the matting round my bench, but _don’t put out your foot to cushion it_… <Ouch>

I decided right away that there was little point in testing this jig with the common bench plane blades and so forth; I trust Veritas’ R&D folks can be relied upon not to overlook the obvious things, and it‘d be like testing an infill on some B&Q pine... As far as I’m concerned this honing guide would get used for more demanding or unusual tasks, and I wanted to see how far I could push it. So I assembled some really diabolical blades to throw at it. :twisted: 




_See? Told you I needed a wide range of tools from which to choose  _

All the *plane blades* - from a tapered one out of a wooden jointer to the 3/16” grooving blade for the Lewin combination plane - were held perfectly firmly by the guide. The stop worked well on the majority of them, including the often awkward “shouldered” irons such as for the bench rebate plane. 





The fact it registers on the left hand side of the blade (as looked at when using the plane) surprisingly proved to be a limitation. I daresay there’s a good reason for it that I’ve failed to realise, but traditionally I thought the right hand side was the important one - thinking of rebate planes and so forth. 




_Irons from the Lewin Combination Plane all register on the right edge, as you can see. Yes, all right, put your hands down. I know the honing world isn‘t exactly awash with them, but it’s just an example… :roll: _

Having it registering on the left also makes it no use as a stop for the majority of skewed blades, which is a shame.




_A woodie skew rebate iron (before rehab, I hasten to add) often a problem for other guides to hold adequately. That was fine, but I had to eyeball the blade projection, and I was just getting used to the whole stop thing _

Okay, so it’s not designed for skew blades, but being able to get the bevel angle accurate using the guide would be something - only leaving you to worry about the skew angle. One blade that suddenly became a positive delight to hone was from the #80 scraper. The width, short length and 45° bevel angle, which have stymied many another honing guide, proved to be non-existent problems. Vunderbar!




_The short, weedy slice of processed cheese that Stanley supply with the modern #80 scraper in lieu of a blade, brilliantly held_

*Chisels* proved _slightly_ more problematic, as they often do. The clamping bar on the guide pivots to accommodate tapered blades _very_ satisfactorily. I was actually able to clamp up the 1/8” mortise chisel in the pictures, hold it by the handle and shake the guide about and it *didn’t move at all*. Holy smokes! :shock: However, with some other chisels, particularly older, bevel edged ones, wide and narrow, I had some swivelling problems. I think it’s to do with them being not ground perfectly flat on their faces (the bevelled side) - whether from manufacture or wear with age I don’t know. I fiddled about a bit with them, and found they were held much, much better if they were placed off-centre in the blade clamp. My suspicion is the surface of the clamping bar may make the difference. In the centre the surface is level right from front to back, whereas on either side only the front and back “rim” bears on the blade, which seems to give better grip. I don’t know, but it does seem to work better off-centre; my only minor concern being how much that might effect the clamping set up over time. The actual length of blade needed to clamp it is pretty negligible, and then, right behind the blade clamp, there’s a simply huge space to accommodate the biggest handle you could imagine, if you wanted to. It’s an excellent guide for short _and_ tapered blades, it really is. 



 

 

 

 


_From left to right: the clamp bears both front and back on this extremely tapered (and abused - by someone else) mortise chisel; the ends of the clamp bars demonstrate the amount of pivot required to achieve a firm grip; and its short length is no problem; the less extreme taper of a large firmer is no trouble at all and rock solid; the short length of a Japanese chisel is no problem either, with plenty of room for the socket, handle and the Royal Philharmonic… Or do I exaggerate again…? :-k _

So, erm, where’ve we got to? Ah yes, *back bevels*. Okay, so I did say it’d be a cold day in Hell before I got excited about a honing guide, but I admit I was looking forward to trying the back bevelling function. Again, I suggest the instructions are the best place to find a coherent explanation of how it works, but you‘ll have to make do with me... 



 

 
_Left: The blade carrier set at position 3 (green), the stop placed at the 10° point on the green scale, width set to 2” for this second example of Stanley processed cheese. Probably low fat too… Right: Remember to put the blade in the other way up from normal. Don’t laugh too much, but I didn’t at first…  _


None the wiser? Trust me, it does work. Very well. Very easily. 




_One, very even, 10° back bevel. Smashing_

Unless you want a back bevel of less than 10° when you have to start playing with spacer blocks and the roller running off the stone and so forth. Me? I’m lazy and 10° is just fine and dandy, thank you…  Okay, so I may get to it later, and I’ll let you know.

So, anything I’ve missed? Lots. But things I’ve remembered: There’s the whole micro-bevel using the roller adjustment thing, which is beyond me, quite frankly. But it’s not new, so I hope you’ll forgive me. Apparently the roller needs regular oiling, which makes sense, but I would worry about the care it might need in the hurly burly _chez Alf_. Already I’ve managed to make my mark on the stop, and that’s when I was being careful.  





What I’d really like next is to see advantage taken of the separate roller/clamp system. An alternative roller carrier with a narrow wheel for us in the Cambered Club. And blade carriers; one specifically for skewed blades (Edit: Apparently that's on its way - great minds, eh...?). And the stop on the other side - but there must be something I‘ve missed there...? And stop points for angles like 38°. Esoteric? Not if you've got a 12° bedding angle in a bevel up plane and you want york pitch. And…

<Gulp>

I’m sounding excited about the possibilities of a honing guide. Time to stop. :shock:





So, the verdict? Nope, not going there. [-X It’d be like giving my thoughts on a table saw. :wink: What I will say, as a reluctant honing guide user, is that for its ability with particularly high and low angles in blades both long and short _I’d_ have it in the workshop. 

There you are; 2000-odd words on something I don't know diddly about. And I didn’t once mention traffic ligh… 

D’oh. #-o


Now, please, sir. I’ve been very good and eaten all my greens. Can I give my unqualified opinion on something I know a tiny bit about? [-o< :lol:

*Edit* - Well more of a rewrite in fact, to take into account the change in the design of clamping bar from the not-quite-production one I initially reviewed, and the finished product I now have, the section on clamping chisels is different from that commented on below.

*Veritas MkII Honing Guide* £36.50 from BriMarc

NB: In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that in this case Lee Valley have very kindly said I can keep this review guide, for which many thanks. I have made every effort to not let this affect my review, and I hope this is self-evident, but you, the reader, will always be the final judge.


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## Noel

Even exerting pressure on each corner of a plane iron as you hone should give you some camber? Did I read that somewhere? Derek?

Noel

Edit: just went off to have a look for. Canny find it but I'm sure it was in one of Derek's reviews.. But perhaps blade thickness is a factor?


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## Chris Knight

Alf,
Brilliant! You may not know a lot about honing guides but you certainly explain them well.

It is a real shame that it doesn't appear to hold chisel blades firmly. One of the things I was looking forward to is the ability to sharpen chisels that have a back that is not in a parallel plane to the face; since the usual guides use the latter for registration and in an out of parallel situation it is very hard to shape the edge properly.


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## DaveL

Alf, 

Thanks for doing that, I have never used the MK1 but still use an eclipse guide, this looks like an improvement. 
As Chris said you explian thing well.=D>
I might add it to the 'One of Those Please List' :roll: well I don't need any more socks or hankies. :x


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## Midnight

> As long as you don’t want a cambered blade, ‘cos that wide roller (almost 2” width bears on the stone) just will not let you hone anything but square. I know that’d be a plus point for a lot of users, so heigh ho.



ummmmmmmm.... I managed to get camber... very slight, granted (I only had 15 mins this mornin before runnin out the door like a mad thing t get to work) but it's there none the less... every bit as controlable as the Mk I too..  



> One drawback to the sleek finish and using oilstones was it took on all the attributes of a bar of soap in a bath, and it hit the deck at least twice.



<cough> waterstones <cough>
 



> Okay, so it’s not designed for skew blades, but being able to get the bevel angle accurate using the guide would be something - only leaving you to worry about the skew angle.



I'd similar probs with my #140 blade

soooooo..... ya gonna order one...?????


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## MikeW

Thank you for the detailed review, Alf.

Perhaps like you, I am mostly a by-hand sharpener. I will take a blade or chisel occassionaly to the Tormek to quickly make a big change, but that's it.

So far I haven't found a chisel or plane blade that my hands have failed to grip...

But it wasn't always so. I have the LV honing guide and use to use it for back and secondary bevels.

Maybe I just don't care to be that accurate anymore? Maybe I've just decided that by frequent honing of chisels and blades (or swapping blades while planing) that I rarely need to do a full sharpen anyway.

Maybe Rob will send you a heavy smoother to review. Eh Rob?

Again, thanks. Mike


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## Alf

I've had some news as regards the tapered-in-thickness blades - some adjustments are being made now to the full production version to correct the lower jaw not pivoting completely. The info I was given was the guide I have was "assembled using full production parts", but evidently the speed of change at LV rendered that null and void - unbeknownst to me. :roll: I'll just go and edit that in.

Noel, the wider wheel makes the amount of camber you can achieve, as Mike says, very slight. Too slight for me, I'm afraid. I would also have some concerns about how the roller would like it, if I did it regularly.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous

Thanks Alf. Very nice review yet again; you really should take this up full time :wink: 

How does it compare to the eclipse you have? 

How much will it cost?????


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## bugbear

> Even exerting pressure on each corner of a plane iron as you hone should give you some camber?



I bet it does. I can even get camber with MY jig...

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour. ... pening_jig

(BTW, Mr Lee - let's see you sharpen *that* blade 

BugBear (with a cumbersome jig)


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## Rob Lee

MikeW":2or3saww said:


> (snip)
> Maybe Rob will send you a heavy smoother to review. Eh Rob?
> 
> (snip)



Most certainly! .... and the blades too...

... and the jointer, and the router, and the.... whoops - getting a bit ahead of myself :-$  

Heavy smooth goes on the mills Monday...

Cheers - 

Rob


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## MikeW

Rob Lee":2832mwj1 said:


> MikeW":2832mwj1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (snip)
> Maybe Rob will send you a heavy smoother to review. Eh Rob?
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most certainly! .... and the blades too...
> 
> ... and the jointer, and the router, and the.... whoops - getting a bit ahead of myself :-$
> 
> Heavy smooth goes on the mills Monday...
> 
> Cheers -
> 
> Rob
Click to expand...


If you want it tested on some narly burls and just plain ol' exotics (like the Bubinga in my avatar) send me one.

Rob, probably I speak for more people here than myself, but I appreciate not only your sense of humor, but esp. in your "leaking" of "sensitive" company information!

Speaking of which, I am sending you a PM.


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## Rob Lee

MikeW":1jvn073h said:


> [(snip)
> 
> Speaking of which, I am sending you a PM.



Hi Mike - 

Actually replied to your PM before reading the above message....ain't instant notification grand \/ =D> 

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Alf

Rob Lee":1dkxbmj0 said:


> MikeW":1dkxbmj0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (snip)
> Maybe Rob will send you a heavy smoother to review. Eh Rob?
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most certainly! .... and the blades too...
> 
> ... and the jointer, and the router, and the.... whoops - getting a bit ahead of myself :-$
Click to expand...

Not far enough ahead for some people, I'll wager.  

Hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it? If I'd known a year ago what I know now, I'd have made my reviews _a lot_ shorter... #-o :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight

> Hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it? If I'd known a year ago what I know now, I'd have made my reviews a lot shorter...



self inflicted injuries... no sympathy 

 :wink:


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## Alf

Sorry 'bout that, Tony. I was going to come back to this and it slipped my mind. 


Tony":3v8a7yx2 said:


> How does it compare to the eclipse you have?


Well it'd be a bit like comparing a low angle smoother to a #4 1/2 really... :wink: I prefer the narrow wheel on it I think; at least I feel the jig is helping _me_, rather than me just being there to _push the jig_. But I can see a lot of people preferring things the other way round. At the moment it also has the edge on holding chisels compared with the example of the Veritas I have.



Tony":3v8a7yx2 said:


> How much will it cost?????


No idea, but watch this space.

Cheers, Alf


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Great review Alf - as always  

I will add a few comments and observations here (at some time I must collect all my data and do a proper review, but it looks like my offerings have developed into several chapters).

*The blade clamp*

If there is a weakness in the design of the Mk II honing guide I see it in the blade clamp. I recognize that this uses space more efficiently (that is, it extends only when needed) and is less likely to cause the blade to move out of position (as the twisting motion of the screw down on the Mk I can do), but it is more susceptible to placing uneven pressure on the blade, so causing it to be slightly tilted on the base. This would lead to a skewed grind/hone. Careful adjustment (that is, equal pressure on each side) is necessary. Having said this, the issue is more pertinent to narrow blades, such as chisel blades. In practice, I did not experience this to be a problem with plane blades or wide chisel blades (of at least 1” and wider).

*Cambering blades*

The wide wheel of the guide provides excellent stability (and probably reduces some wear on waterstones) and the blade will not cant over as easily as, say, an Eclipse guide. However, honing a camber on plane blade can still be achieved, and this is done by using downward finger pressure on the bevel. 


*Registering on right side*

The blades register on the right side (bevel up). This suits most planes and chisels. It is ideal for a #140 skew block plane


*Setting up for skew blades*

While there is no apparent provision made for honing skew blades on the Mk II, I have included a slight modification and related methodology that will made this a doddle. See picture 1, which is the Mk II set up with the blade from my Stanley #140 skew block plane.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=9196

After a little experimentation, I determined that the 17° (green) mark coincides with a 25° skew bevel, and the 13° (green) mark coincides with a 20° skew bevel. (see picture 2). To set up the registration guide, the following must be done:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=9197

1.	Mark a horizontal line across the registration guide with masking tape (picture 3). http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=9198

You can see (in Picture 4) that the skew blade is set up in the same way as any other square blade. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=9199

2.	Mark off the guide lines for 25° and 20° on the registration guide (picture 5). 
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=9200

Picture 6 demonstrates the final set up.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=9201

*Chisel vs plane blades*

So far my impression is that the Mk II is a superior quality honing guide with plane blades. It is capable of a satisfactory performance on chisels, but narrow blades certainly cause this is to be a more demanding process. This is largely due to the nature of the blade clamp. My experience is that the Mk I is capable of greater down force on the blade, but (and it is a BIG “but”) the Mk I is not in the same league for ease of set up, and the Mk II is capable of clamping a much wider range of plane and chisel blade sizes (both in terms of width and thickness). One differences in design is the width of the bed (I have no other technical term for this part) on which the blade rests, with the Mk I being about twice the width of the Mk II. This may be a double-edged sword since, on the one hand, it may provide less support, but on the other hand it makes it possible to clamp short blades (such as Japanese chisels), which the Mk I does not do as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> *Registering on right side*
> 
> The blades register on the right side (bevel up)


_That_ was the thing I remembered and then forgot by the time I got the blasted Word document open. #-o Thank you, Derek. It's been driving me mad. And does, to a certain extent, provide an explanation for the stop registering on the "left". Except all the stop point angles say "bevel down" to me, at least as far as plane blades are concerned. :-k 



Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> *Setting up for skew blades*
> 
> While there is no apparent provision made for honing skew blades on the Mk II, I have included a slight modification and related methodology that will made this a doddle. See picture 1, which is the Mk II set up with the blade from my Stanley #140 skew block plane.


Seems there might be something in the works for skews... But never mind that - nice method on the #140 blade. I don't currently have a blade skewed the right way to put against the stop, but all being well I'll be able to replicate it for myself some time next week... 

Cheers, Alf


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

> I don't currently have a blade skewed the right way to put against the stop



Alf

Just use the line (as marked in the pictures) as the "stop" (i.e. line the bevel edge up with the line) for a skew blade that runs the other way. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I don't currently have a blade skewed the right way to put against the stop
> 
> 
> 
> Just use the line (as marked in the pictures) as the "stop" (i.e. line the bevel edge up with the line) for a skew blade that runs the other way.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I had worked that out. It was just a ham-fisted drive-by gloat. Evidentally I'm out of practice... :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Rob Lee

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> (snip)
> While there is no apparent provision made for honing skew blades on the Mk II, (snip)



Hi Derek - 

There'll be a separate projection jig for skew chisels.... we didn't want to bulk up the price of the basic system by including it....

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Anonymous

Finally a Jig wide enough to sharpen the 65 MM blade I bought from Lee Valley 20+ years ago. I've been nursing that grudge a long time... 

Looks like a wonderful product! 

I do almost all my sharpening freeehand, which I find is all the more reason to own a Jig since eventually the time will come when the bevels need re-setting, or in some case hollow grinding. I was surprised to discover that a lot of those Japanese masters who win planing contest use jigs, well maybe not that surprised.


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## Alf

Folks,

A great big fat update to the not-review regarding the clamping of chisels with the proper, production, one you get when you buy it, clamping bar. The majority of the chisel section has been rewritten to reflect the noticable improvement.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear

> There'll be a separate projection jig for skew chisels.... we didn't want to bulk up the price of the basic system by including it....



And a narrow (and/or) convex roller for cambered blades?

BugBear (and Lyn ;-)


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## Alf

Tony":d7jc1o03 said:


> How much will it cost?????


£36.50 :shock:


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## Martin Brown

£30 until mid August btw. Just call BriMarc to join the queue. We are awaiting confirmation of delivery but it will be soon.


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## woodsworth

Just happened upon this and since sharpening is always relevant I thought i'd update two things. The price in the link of the OP is almost up to £51. 

http://www.brimarc.com/products/Veritas-Mk.II-Honing-System-377359.htm

And the other thing is there is a small Youtube demo of the tool which helps clear up a few things i didn't understand from the review. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-eBZAh3g3g

So the second cheapest is Axminster. right now at £50.95 There is another that is about one pound less but you'd have to open an account etc... Just to save that pound. 

Thanks for the review, it made my mind up


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## woodbloke

woodsworth":39eivjkc said:


> The price in the link of the OP is almost up to £51.


Before anyone else states the obvious, the date on Alf's original post was 2005...5 years ago - Rob


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## Modernist

It's still a lot of money for what it is - and I've got them!


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## woodsworth

I just ordered one. I was thinking that at this rate in a couple of years it will be out of my price range to justify ever getting one. I did see the date on the original post, but as i said honing and sharpening is always relevant, it didn't make sense to make a new thread when this one was so good.


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## jimi43

I bought one at Christmas...part of my AXMINSTER SITTINGBOURNE trip...

Brilliant little thing and as Alf says in his original review, very well engineered.

It looks a little complicated at first but it isn't. It just needs a few goes to get the idea and you are off. I keep forgetting to reset the bevel knob though! DOH!

Axminster had them on sale when I was there...£47 I think. 

Jim


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## flounder

Rutlands currently selling them at £39.95!


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## PeterBassett

I got one as a chrimbo present. It really is quite excellent.

Bang on 90 degree edge with ease first time out. Well worth the money.

I am annoyed that the dovetail saw has gone up 20%+ though.


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## Kalimna

I love mine, and have ordered the camber roller too (I dont feel too proficient at all at doing this freehand!) from CHT, along with a few other bits and bobs.

Adam


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## woodsworth

Thanks flounder,
Just e-mailed Axminster to see if they will meet Rutlands price or Whether i need to return the item. It hasn't arrived so i may not take possession of it if i don't get an answer from them before it comes. I hate things like this but £5 is better in my pocket then anyone else's.

So Rutlands has the best price. Not by much because they charge postage and Axminster doesn't. I wonder why Rutlands didn't show up when i did a search. Even stranger It didn't show up in their search box either. I actually had to go into sharpening link to find it.... I'm sure they are missing out on some sales.


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## DaveL

jimi43":1kjs0a2v said:


> Brilliant little thing and as Alf says in his original review, very well engineered.


Jim,
The guide is indeed a good tool, but Alf is not a him, :shock: you are not the first to make that mistake and I doubt you will be the last, A L F are her initials, not her name.


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## MickCheese

jimi43":orsevjn4 said:


> I bought one at Christmas...part of my AXMINSTER SITTINGBOURNE trip...
> 
> Brilliant little thing and as Alf says in his original review, very well engineered.
> 
> It looks a little complicated at first but it isn't. It just needs a few goes to get the idea and you are off. I keep forgetting to reset the bevel knob though! DOH!
> 
> Axminster had them on sale when I was there...£47 I think.
> 
> Jim



Is Alf not a her?

Mick


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## head clansman

hi all 

alf is indeed a HER for those who dont know .hc


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## wizer

Is this what you call a quiet word in ones ear? :lol: 

I'm quite sure Alf is used to it by now.


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## woodsworth

Nothing like a Chivalrous chippy ridding in on a shiny plane to make the rescue. Cues the Monty Python theme song.


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## jimi43

OOOPS Sorry A.L.F......

Me bad....that's TWICE in one day!

It's the FUMES I tell ya...the FUMES!!

   

Jim


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## Alf

I have only myself to blame. Although I do wonder what folks think about the hand tool 'goddess' bit if they don't know... :-k :lol:

Incidentally, I gather from a thread on Woodnet that Veritas are playing about with another honing guide, aimed at chisels. I know nothing about it but just fyi.


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## wizer

I have a small issue with my MKII which means the blade is a bit 'pineappled' (technical term) when held in the jig. It means that the blade become ever so slightly out of square. No bigger for most uses. I only recently noticed (4yrs after I bought it) so I just have to live with it.

It's a really quite amazing piece of engineering if you think about it. Whoever designed it was a bit of a genius IMHO


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## jimi43

Alf":2u8w16fc said:


> I have only myself to blame. Although I do wonder what folks think about the hand tool 'goddess' bit if they don't know... :-k :lol:
> 
> Incidentally, I gather from a thread on Woodnet that Veritas are playing about with another honing guide, aimed at chisels. I know nothing about it but just fyi.



Do you know...I never noticed that bit until now!

I was wondering about chisels...the clamping part is a little lacking when one uses a thin chisel in it. I just take it carefully then but obviously there is less stablity and more chance for movement within the clamp.

If I were modifying that element I would have a follower plate which would sit in the clamping mechanism to support the majority of the chisel before the edge. I am interested to see how they solve that "problem".

Jim


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## Vann

Alf":1wyy1eeq said:


> Incidentally, I gather from a thread on Woodnet that Veritas are playing about with another honing guide, aimed at chisels.


Great, I'm forever having narrow or bevelled blade shift in the current MkII set-up.

I'd like to see a side clamping bracket, based on the Ellipse, that bolts to the existing MkII roller assembly. That way we wouldn't have to start from scratch with a completely new jig, but could use the existing registration jig, skew jig, and cambered roller ( :shock: no, not for chisels). I know businesses would prefer to sell a whole new kit, but as an add on to an existing kit they'd probably sell more anyway.

My tuppence worth...

Cheers, Vann.


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## Harbo

That's a problem with the two screw clamping - the original Mk 1? had a single central clamp?

I'm not wishing to start the "honing guide wars" again but this is where the Kell guides score as they clamp at the edges or on the MkIII using wedges.

I have both types and an Eclipse and they all have their different advantages - I use the one that is best for the particular task?  

Rod


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## woodbloke

You all need to buy Kell III's :lol: - Rob...ducking, diving and already moving


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## Alf

And how would you camber easily, Rob? No, there's no such thing as the perfect honing guide. Even the Mk1 hands (left and right) aren't always the solution (albeit much more often than not  )


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## bugbear

Harbo":2dg96gad said:


> That's a problem with the two screw clamping - the original Mk 1? had a single central clamp?



And legendarily had issues with the tool moving!

BugBear (who remembers all the complaints in the months after it launched)


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## woodbloke

Alf":2iidra4n said:


> And how would you camber easily, Rob? No, there's no such thing as the perfect honing guide. Even the Mk1 hands (left and right) aren't always the solution (albeit much more often than not  )


Doable, but a bit of a faff to be honest (but not difficult either to get a precise camber using cartridge paper to offset one side of the roller) so I tend not to camber these days but just knock off the blade corners...seems to work. Without raking over old ground and the probability of more abuse coming my way :lol: you are of course, right. There's no such thing as the perfect hg, but the K111 works for me and does everything I need a hg to do in _one_ package.
If I read the thread correctly, somewhere I recollect that there's a duty rumor that V are dabbling with another hg to sort out chisels? So now there's the Veritas MkII+cambered roller thingie+short blade attachment dooberie+the widget to do skewed blades(?)...and now the new hg for chisels, whereas the KIII will do all of that lot in one guide.
If there _is_ going to be another Veritas guide, it'll be one more for PaulC's collection :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## mr grimsdale

You have to have a good camber on your typical plane blade or it is useless, unless you plane narrow board edges only. Square corners or even slightly knocked off corners will leave tramlines on a board face. 
But a bigger problem with a straight edge is that, on an already flat board, it will only cut with the whole width of the blade in the work, and can be difficult to move at all.
It follows that a honing jig which won't do a camber easily, is pointless (for planes at least).

Actually a HJ which doesn't have handles or other convenient way of holding or exerting pressure is also pretty stupid IMHO. They all seem to have missed this simple point. 
I suppose first generation planes probably didn't have handles either. I wonder how long it took them to come up with the idea? :lol:


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## Alf

And how many bits and pieces did you have to make to use the KIII before you could even hone one standard plane iron, Rob...? :wink: 

I'm not defending the Veritas, 'cos I class all honing guides as an occasionally necessary evil and love them not, but the KIII has plenty of drawbacks too, even if you can't see 'em. :wink:


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## woodbloke

[-( [-( :-# in response to MrG...it ain't worth it!

Sure Alf, yes, you have to make the bits and pieces to adapt it for each type of blade...but the *cost* is zero!.. and it only takes a very small amount of time. The point I was attempting to make with the Veritas hg's is one of £sd (you might not remember the 'sd' bit :lol: ) which is starting to rack up if _everything_ is bought - Rob


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## Alf

:lol: Good man - was looking down the barrel of a honing guide war and wincing meself. :wink:


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## dunbarhamlin

mr grimsdale":3r13m4n2 said:


> You have to have a good camber on your typical plane blade or it is useless, unless you plane narrow board edges only. Square corners or even slightly knocked off corners will leave tramlines on a board face.


Don't agree with this Mr G. For panel work, with a properly set iron and methodical order of work the next stroke removes the ridge from the last. Even with an unevenly set iron, selecting the appropriate order of stroke will eliminate lines.

For spot smoothing, rounded corners or a slight camber are useful. But since this application is by way of a repair, any lines can be quickly removed with a scraper (they're only going to be a thou or less.)

Camber is good for truing an edge, though again, not necessary - stepped/terraced shavings work well, as do the techniques of lateral weighting (but slow - I just use for tweaking when I'm jointing) or just holding the plane perfectly true.


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## woodbloke

dunbarhamlin":2wx4cxn9 said:


> Don't agree with this Mr G.


 8-[ ...steady Steve :wink: :lol: - Rob


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## mr grimsdale

dunbarhamlin":jk44kcg6 said:


> mr grimsdale":jk44kcg6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to have a good camber on your typical plane blade or it is useless, unless you plane narrow board edges only. Square corners or even slightly knocked off corners will leave tramlines on a board face.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't agree with this Mr G. For panel work, with a properly set iron and methodical order of work the next stroke removes the ridge from the last. Even with an unevenly set iron, selecting the appropriate order of stroke will eliminate lines...
Click to expand...

Hmm, I can see that you could do that in theory, with a perfectly set up plane and a fairly amenable and shortish length of timber so that each pass would produce a perfectly controlled shaving. But it's never like that for me!
I just had to camber my 4 1/2 as the edge had got straightened out somehow and it was difficult to use. It now easily takes off thin whispers which taper away to nothing either side, which is how I like it.
Do other people manage to take geometrically perfect shavings like Steve's?


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## Kalimna

For what it's worth, I like honing guides, and whilst I appreciate the simple (and exquisite) workmanship of the KellII, I much prefer the Veritas MkII.

There are extremely few things in any walk of life, in any passtime or area of work, that are truly black and white. To say that 'X is the only way to do it, and if you do it another way, you are fooling yourself' is both rather insulting of a great many folk, and also showing an opinion for what it is - one tracked and so blinded by tradition that no one else can possibly be correct.

I would love to be able to freehand hone, but even on some nice 6mm plane irons, I have trouble with rocking the bevel. For me honing guides work. I would love to have the good fortune to be blessed with the unparalleled skill of a pair of steady arms, but I don't.

And anyway, I thought that that particular nugget of urban myth about honing guides wearing a stone unevenly had been laid to rest. I have done far more harm to a waterstone with an inadvertent slip of a narrow chisel than I could possibly do with a wide roller that spreads the pressure in a 'rolling' fashion, not a 'grinding' fashion.

Right then, now that I have ignored common sense and the warning signs not to feed the trolls, I shall delve back into my garage full of walnut and sycamore shavings and wonder how on earth I ever manage to get a square edge. Miracles abound in Alloa, is the only answer I can now think of!

Cheers,
Adam


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## dunbarhamlin

:lol: Unusually, you are in the majority with this one, Jacob.

It does probably take me as long to set the iron as to refresh it. And I use a fillet of wood to test and a toffee hammer for fine adjustment (well, my brass fretting hammer when it's in reach, otherwise turnscrew, chisel side, etc)

I use the same approach for anything from 7' doors to mandolin necks.

Adam - IIRC Rob found the Kell II most effective used on the pull stroke.
However, if used on the push stroke, it can effectively be used like bicycle training wheels to get the feel of the equilibrium needed for "flat" bevel freehanding.
"Flat" in quotes because, the nice thing is that absolute flat is nice - but not necessary.
(And to preempt Mr G - see his Derbyshire Bevel page)

(Wonder if I'm getting any better at juggling with fire)

Cheers
Steve


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## mr grimsdale

I suppose you get into the habit of that sort of high precision approach with music instrument making. Maybe I would too! 
I guess I'm after speed with optimum (but not ultimate) perfection for the effort expended.

PS


> (Wonder if I'm getting any better at juggling with fire)


No it's me being cautious about any reference to any of my dangerously radical, generally perverted and very weird ideas (about sharpening). :lol: :lol:


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## dunbarhamlin

Yep - that makes perfect sense. Can't deny my brother chunters a bit when I'm doing it - but we're good for one another - he says "that'll do" less now, and I say it more 
Think one of the main differences between hamateur and professional is that the latter knows when good enough really is good enough.


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## bugbear

Depth of camber roughly equal to depth of shaving is what's required to make adjacent strokes feather into each other.

Logically (and unsurprisingly) this leads to jacks having more camber than smoothers or jointers.

BugBear


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## Alf

Kalimna":2nffq4tg said:


> I would love to be able to freehand hone, but even on some nice 6mm plane irons, I have trouble with rocking the bevel. For me honing guides work. I would love to have the good fortune to be blessed with the unparalleled skill of a pair of steady arms, but I don't.


Adam, I have been where you are and I fully understand. Don't ever feel that you have to somehow defend using a honing guide, because the sharp edge is the important bit - how you get there doesn't matter at all. But it's not some miraculous skill; like so many things in woodworking, it's simply practice. So don't be afraid to try to freehand now and again; you may surprise yourself. No-one will revoke your honing guide rights, I promise. 

And I see Rob has sneakily edited in some more to his post _after_ I posted. Tsk. Yes, Rob, cost is zero. But equally you don't have to spend anything extra _at all_, including time, to do 90% of most people's honing. 100% of the majority's, I imagine.

You know, I can't wait for Karl Holtey to make a honing guide. Should be good for at least six pages. :lol:


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## wizer

Alf":2y0c183t said:


> Kalimna":2y0c183t said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to be able to freehand hone, but even on some nice 6mm plane irons, I have trouble with rocking the bevel. For me honing guides work. I would love to have the good fortune to be blessed with the unparalleled skill of a pair of steady arms, but I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> Adam, I have been where you are and I fully understand. Don't ever feel that you have to somehow defend using a honing guide, because the sharp edge is the important bit - how you get there doesn't matter at all. But it's not some miraculous skill; like so many things in woodworking, it's simply practice. So don't be afraid to try to freehand now and again; you may surprise yourself. No-one will revoke your honing guide rights, I promise.
Click to expand...


Hear Hear!!


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## mr grimsdale

Alf":7zdilmd1 said:


> ...
> You know, I can't wait for Karl Holtey to make a honing guide. Should be good for at least six pages. :lol:


I wonder if it'll have a handle? The paleolithic hand axe was around for many thousands of years before handles were added. 
I reckon 15 for the honing jig, if they pull their fingers out!
There is a precursor here which they are welcome to copy!


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## ydb1md

I guess you can camber your blade when it's in the honing guide -- although it's a bit dodgy and you risk gouging your stones. 

Usually though, I do my shaping of the camber on my grinder. Then, when I'm honing, it's easy enough to apply pressure on one side or the other to bring the camber to the waterstone. I can hone a camber easily enough w/ my eclipse or veritas mkII guide.

Is Holtey really coming out w/ a honing guide? :?:


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## Paul Chapman

woodbloke":1ttn97wz said:


> If there _is_ going to be another Veritas guide, it'll be one more for PaulC's collection :lol: :lol:


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## bugbear

Alf":20xsiq69 said:


> But it's not some miraculous skill; like so many things in woodworking, it's simply practice. So don't be afraid to try to freehand now and again; you may surprise yourself. No-one will revoke your honing guide rights, I promise.



I was recently sharpening a Japanese Kitchen knife. Knives are far harder to sharpen (well) than any woodworking tool I know of. The damn things are only 35-40mm long in the direction of the bevel, and have a curved blade.

Fortunately, the NEED for a super sharp edge in the kitchen isn't too high, and achieving a "good enough" edge is quite easy.

Unless you're doing Sushi (where the quality and nature of the cut surface is part of the dish) having a knife that cuts superbly is not essential.

But it is a sensuous pleasure.

Try these guys for obsession:

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/

Watch this and be stunned:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fujibatoco ... 633392273/

BugBear (just starting down this slope)


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## Alf

ydb1md":3a4nbsay said:


> Is Holtey really coming out w/ a honing guide? :?:


Not to my knowledge; I was being facetious.


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## Harbo

Knife Forums - been there but jumped off that slope, but I have a Randall knife coming in March that I ordered 4 years ago!

Having a knife that cuts superbly makes cooking so much easier just like sharp woodworking tools.
Get an Edge Pro Apex!

Rod


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## Kalimna

Alf, Wizer and Mr Grimsdale - Ok, you have persuaded me to have another go at freehanding it  I have set aside wednesday to sort out a bunch of chisels and plane blades that currently struggle to cut through soft lard. I'll see how i get on......

With regards to the knife slope (and am I correct in thinking that the 'slope' is an slow and inexorable rise in the number of yummy tools owned and concurrent fall in ones' bank balance?) - I am well and truly sloped. Started way back with a Kai Damascus and now runs the length of about 7 japanese damascus steel blades in various configurations (single bevel takohiki, nakiri x2, gyuto 240 and 270, one with malachite handle, and a still-black-from-the-forging gyuto). I am rather protective about my kitchen knives and persnickerty with their sharpening. Bizarrely, each blade sharpens differently - for instance the Kai is a pipper to get a razor edge with, but the Tanaka nakiri makes hairs jump off the arm from across the room. All sharpened with same stones as the chisels and plane blades..... But I digress......

But using an exquisitely sharp kitchen knife is an absolute joy - and I only sharpen them freehand..... Guess thats me rumbled.....

And yes, kifeforums.com is a bit scary....

Cheerio,
Adam


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## mr grimsdale

Kalimna":1n5jxz1y said:


> ..and I only sharpen them freehand..... ..


Well whatever the drawbacks of freehand sharpening - at least it's quicker, easier, cheaper and more effective. :lol:


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## woodbloke

Kalimna":165ds4w9 said:


> ...and am I correct in thinking that the 'slope' is an slow and inexorable rise in the number of yummy tools owned and concurrent fall in ones' bank balance


Correctamundo :wink: - Rob


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## bugbear

mr grimsdale":22csoyvr said:


> Kalimna":22csoyvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..and I only sharpen them freehand..... ..
> 
> 
> 
> Well whatever the drawbacks of freehand sharpening - at least it's quicker, easier, cheaper and more effective. :lol:
Click to expand...


As I understand it, views on that vary ;-)

BugBear


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## bugbear

Kalimna":2q715mcz said:


> With regards to the knife slope (and am I correct in thinking that the 'slope' is an slow and inexorable rise in the number of yummy tools owned and concurrent fall in ones' bank balance?) - I am well and truly sloped.



The slope is what you go down when you start buying nice toys.

I bet you thought you were only going to buy one, quite reasonably priced Japanese knife, didn't you...

Maybe two.

Ooh, Damascus!

A Santoku works well but I NEED a gyuto...

That's the slope. Round this neck o' the woods, it normally applies to planes.

BugBear


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## Kalimna

I suppose you could say that kitchen knives are 'Handtools', couldn't you? But I'm not sure gratuitous picture gloats would be entirely within the ethos of this forum 

I do like the damascus - and have been wondering for a while if anyone makes folded plane blades in damascus steel, similar to the suminigashi japanese chisels???

As it happens, I prefer the heft and shape of the santoku, but you only ever get it in 165-180mm lengths, and I quite like longer blades (hence the gyuto's).

Have you had a look around Kin Knives or www.japaneseknifecompany.com? Both very helpful in the choice of blade - and happy to talk about the range of knives they have that aren't in their catalogue/website..... Very dangerous indeed 

Cheers,
Adam


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## Harbo

Japanese plane blades are available - laminated as their chisels, but not as far as Damascus?

I bought my first knives from the Japanese Knife Co. many years ago and then progressed to hand made ones imported direct from Japan.
Another slope not to go down  

Rod


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## bugbear

Kalimna":7br5l062 said:


> I suppose you could say that kitchen knives are 'Handtools', couldn't you? But I'm not sure gratuitous picture gloats would be entirely within the ethos of this forum
> 
> I do like the damascus - and have been wondering for a while if anyone makes folded plane blades in damascus steel, similar to the suminigashi japanese chisels???
> 
> As it happens, I prefer the heft and shape of the santoku, but you only ever get it in 165-180mm lengths, and I quite like longer blades (hence the gyuto's).
> 
> Have you had a look around Kin Knives or www.japaneseknifecompany.com? Both very helpful in the choice of blade - and happy to talk about the range of knives they have that aren't in their catalogue/website..... Very dangerous indeed
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam



I don't like the way Kin are rebranding knives under their own name - the only motive I can see for such an action is nefarious.

I got my Tojiro DP Santoku from here:

http://www.nipponkitchen.com/index.html

Excellent prices - if you think Japanese knives (make no mistake, the Tojiro DP are "proper" high carbon core, stainless clad, Rc 60 knives) are expensive, try comparing the prices for Wusthof and Henckels in similar sizes.

BugBear


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## woodsworth

knives aside i finally got my honing guide from rutlands. I returned the one from Axminster after they got a bit pissy and couldn't come up with a good reason to meet Rutlands price, but am still waiting for a refund...

It's amazing how a big company like Axminster can still think like a small company. Appearently they won't meet anyone's sale price. The only prices they will meet is a price that was made at the same time they made their own catalog. 

All that aside very impressed with the jig, wish i would of got it a lot sooner.


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## Midnight

I first bought this jig within days of Alf's original review... this was subsequent to a trial of the pre-production model (Rob... yer a pipper...) and that trial being sufficient to convince me that there was significant advantages to this jig over the Mk1 Veritas...

Context... experience has taught me that I can't afford t trial freehand no more... Ice Bear stones aren't getting any cheaper, n flattening after repeated houks n gouges is taking away from what lil shop time I have... I need jigs to hone... I say that with straight face and absence of shame... 

Having recently moved house (and missplaced my Mk2) I'd cause to fall back on my Mk1 jig... Now while it kicked butt when honing plane blades (cambered or otherwise), when it came to resurecting my tired chisels, I'm afraid it was found to be sadly lacking... lacking enough to warrant ordering another Mk2... and taking the opporchancity to order the small blade holder and skew registration guide while I was at it...

Regrets...??? what's that then...???


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## Noel

Hey Mike I remember that particular Mk 2.
Good to see you again.


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## Midnight

it's been a while eh Noel? Good t see you guys again... hopefully I'll have more to post about in the next few months...


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