# 2. Steve's Workshop- The Commissioning and Production



## Steve Maskery (6 Jan 2016)

A follow on Thread to the Workshop Build Thread 

A couple of years ago I started to make a coffee table. It is going to be pseudo A&C style, with wedged tenons through breadboard ends. And if you think that that is a recipe for disaster, you would be right, if it were not for the fact that I have every intention of cheating.

I did this at the Community Workshop where I volunteer, but it was difficult to do, TBH. There is nowhere to leave stuff from one week to the next, things grow legs, and anyway, I'm supposed to be there to supervise and help, rather than doing my own thing. So I got as far as gluing up the boards for the top and fitting, but not securing, the breadboard ends.

It has stood propped up against the wall for two years and has darkened somewhat, but it currently looks like this:







I wish there was a little more catspaw in the bottom left corner, but it is as well-balanced as could make it with the material I had.

The underside is not quite as pretty. The end of one of the BB ends has some rather inyerface sapwood that is starting to spalt.






OK, I know I won't see that long white dart, but the end of it will show. Not much, but it will be there and I know from bitter experience that if it is there I shall see it and it will bug me.

What to do?

Well if the BB ends were a bit wider, I could simply rip 6mm off the inside edge, but they are already a tad narrower than I would really have liked.

I decided to patch it.

So a hunt around resulted in some bits of oak. The first piece is not a very good match at all.






That is because it is American oak and my table top is English oak. That won't do. But the next piece was much better.






So I examined the endgrain to see how best to cut a patch.






A piece from the middle would give me a decent match, I thought.






I decided to try to cleave the wood, but it wasn't as clean as I had hoped.











Actually I wasn't happy with my first attempt, but the second was much better.

Then I sawed off the spalted section with my dovetail saw. Although the teeth are fine, they are shaped for a rip cut, so it worked very well. I cleaned up with my 311.


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## Steve Maskery (6 Jan 2016)

I bevelled it to get the grain in the correct orientation and then, using the offcut as a caul, I glued in my patch.






I'll know tomorrow how well I've fixed it.

................................

On a totally separate note, I got my old camcorder out this morning. I wasn't at all surprised that all the batteries are dead, they were not holding their charge like they used to when I packed them away four-and-a-half years ago, but using the AC adapter it sprang into life. I want to get filming again, but I really need to buy new kit. I've been discussing it with Eric the Viking, and he reckons that I am underestimating the cost. I've had another look at my figures and have reluctantly come to the conclusion that he is right. I hate it when he's right. Which is nearly always, actually. ](*,) 

So I'll film a promo with my old kit, explaining what I'd like to do and then if people back me I'll do the work, and if people make it clear that they are not interested, then it will be dead in the water. We'll see. I can't afford to fund it as a vanity project like I did 10 years ago. Life is very different now. Better in some respects, but financially isn't one of them!

And the other satisfying thing that happened today was a call from a gentleman from the Computer Support Department at Microsoft. It was a courtesy call to tell me that they had detected that there were some problems with my computer that were causing other problems on their network, and he could fix them for me. How very kind of him.

But I was not near my computer at the time, I would have to go into the house.

When I eventually got there (it was a journey of about one metre, but I don't walk as fast as I used to - yes I'm getting there, nearly there now) he told me to switch it on. Well it is an old Win 98 machine and takes AGES to boot. Was I still there? Oh yes, just waiting for it to boot, there is a lot of stuff on it, it is very slow.

OK, I have the big picture, now. I think it is called the Desktop, is that right?

I had to find the key labelled CTRL and press it with my thumb and then press R. No, nothing is happening. Oh dear, it appears to have frozen, my mouse is stuck. Tell you what, I'll re-boot.

So I re-booted (not), and this time, I told him, CTRL R did work.

What does it say in the box?

Oh I don't know, I haven't got very good eyesight, I need to find my specs, just a mo.

And so we went on. Eventually I got bored and told him it was a Mac.

What?

A Mac. Mackintosh. Have you heard of them?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

At least he wasn't conning some old dear for those ten minutes.


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## galleywood (6 Jan 2016)

That's a good way to deal with them.


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## Graham Orm (6 Jan 2016)

Just a thought Steve, wouldn't it have been easier just to re make the bread board edge from scratch?


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## Steve Maskery (6 Jan 2016)

It would if I had lots of pippy oak to spare. But I don't and the two ends are quite nicely balanced.


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## Bm101 (6 Jan 2016)

Sounds like you missed out on a trick there Steve, I got a similar call a week or so back. Turns out that he needed my paypal account to fix my PC. Clever guy, he said I'd see a marked improvement in PC performance within a month. Amazingly he also turned out to be Prince who's father was an exiled King and he just needed my bank account details and I should be on a £37 million pound winner any day now. 
Touch! 
Sorry you missed out fella. We can't all be winners I suppose. 

(keep the pics coming!)

Chris


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## Steve Maskery (6 Jan 2016)

A couple of weeks ago I had a similar conversation with a guy who tried to get my credit card details. I strung him along for half an hour, including several call-backs.
Childish isn't it? But so very much fun.


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## Bm101 (6 Jan 2016)

I'm actually quite disappointed I never get these calls. Is that odd?


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## Steve Maskery (6 Jan 2016)

Yes, very.


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## CHJ (6 Jan 2016)

Replaced our 'phones with call blocking versions a couple of months ago, any numbers not in the contacts/phone book have to run the gauntlet of announcing themselves and trigger a connection key, any that do that and are not wanted in future can be blocked, just one so far in this category.
Not one computer generated, pre-recorded or unwanted international call since has got through, seems some 'phone spam systems register none completed calls as they are reducing.

You do need caller display option, ours is free as long as line rental is contracted for 12 months.


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## Steve Maskery (7 Jan 2016)

Bit of a scare this morning, I couldn't find my workshop keys. Different pair of jeans? No. Did I go down later with my coat on? No. Ah! There they are, still in the lock...
I had set the alarm and locked up, just them them in the lock. Fortunately I did not have a visitation. I really must be more careful.
So after my heartbeat returned to normal I started to clean up my patch. Bandsaw off the waste and plane it flush











I really must remember to move that anglepoise out of the way when I am taking pics. It is too intrusive, but I simply don't see it.






I threw my shooting board away. It was no longer true and in pretty poor state. I thought that by getting rid of it, it would spur me to make a new one. It's on my Tuit list...

But I do have my mitre shoot, which I can also use for square ends. I need to remake this, too, actually, it doesn't side smoothly like it used to and anyway, I got the position of the screw wrong when I originally made it, which is why it is stood off the front of the bench.











Then over to the router table to recut the end of the mortice






And the end result











I then spent AN HOUR trying to get my drum sander parallel. It's better than it was, but it is not perfect. The tiniest adjustment moves the darn thing a mile. So in the end I cleaned it up with hand planes and a ROS.

This is the underside






TBH, if it were not for that shaken knot at the front, I'd have this as the top, as the pippiness is very nicely distributed. But that knot is a deal-breaker.

This is the top now






I'm happy with it.


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## Wizard9999 (7 Jan 2016)

Very informative few posts on the table patch Steve  .

Terry.


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## Wildman (7 Jan 2016)

tidy patch well done.


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## Eric The Viking (8 Jan 2016)

That's an astonishingly neat patch. 

I've got a mahogany drop-leaf spider table I ought to be doing something similar with some time soon, but it's more by way of restoration. Even if I have the necessary skills (doubtful), I think I'm going to struggle to find a match though.


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## lurker (8 Jan 2016)

Would you mind "doing" a mitre shoot build as it's something I want to make.
I have a lot of blocks of beech that might do nicely for this


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## Steve Maskery (8 Jan 2016)

Hi Lurker
It will be one of the projects for Workshop Essentials Series 2, assuming that it goes ahead.

The mitre shoot is an astonishingly useful gadget to have in the workshop, in many respects it is easier to use than a shooting board. The problem with the one in the photo is that I got the position of the screw in the wrong place and so if the jig is held in the vice right up to the bench top, which is the best place for support, the handle is fouled by the bench. That's why I have it sticking out a bit.

The other problem with it is that it did not take too kindly to being abandoned in a barn for a couple of years. It's got damp and does not slide smoothly anymore. But it's definitely a candidate for a video project.


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## stuartpaul (8 Jan 2016)

lurker":319tdy4k said:


> Would you mind "doing" a mitre shoot build as it's something I want to make.
> I have a lot of blocks of beech that might do nicely for this


+1 from me as well Steve, - looks a very useful bit of kit.


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## doctor Bob (8 Jan 2016)

Can I ask why you didn't put a colour the sap wood ?


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## Steve Maskery (8 Jan 2016)

Yes you can.


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## Steve Maskery (8 Jan 2016)

OK, that was a cheap joke.
TBH it never occurred to me, and anyway, I know just about nothing at all about stains, dyes and finishing, it's not at all my strong point.


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## OM99 (9 Jan 2016)

Steve,

if you decide to invest in a new camera i would suggest this

http://www.wilkinson.co.uk/cameras/comp ... e-kit.html.

With the £100 cash back 3 year warranty and twin lenses not a bad kit to get.

I have an older version and still great for still and make decent movie

these are very good for shooting films and do 4K format too.

Olivier


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## Steve Maskery (9 Jan 2016)

Hi Olivier
I have to say that my heart sank when I saw that someone else was making kit suggestions, as I have spent months researching my options and had reached a decision. The last thing I need is someone throwing a spanner in the works!



But when I saw what it was that you were recommending, I was delighted, because that is the one I have decided upon. I have the G1 and am very pleased with it. Plus, my existing camcorder is a Panny and that was also a good choice at the time. So thank you. It's good to have personal recommendations, especially when they support one's existing bias!


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## doctor Bob (9 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":l3zvj3xv said:


> OK, that was a cheap joke.
> TBH it never occurred to me, and anyway, I know just about nothing at all about stains, dyes and finishing, it's not at all my strong point.



I think you could have saved quite a few hours work :wink:


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## Steve Maskery (9 Jan 2016)

Yes Bob, you are probably right, but as I say, It's not something I know much about. So I did it the way I knew.
I'm happy with the end result.

How about offering a day "Masterclass at Colour Correction"?



I'd come.
Steve


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## custard (10 Jan 2016)

How does this work?

There are now two pinned threads at the top of the main forum page, both of which serve to promote Steve's DVD's, and are right in your eye line whether or not there's been anything posted recently that's of interest to the forum. In effect the Steve Maskery Forum has hijacked the UK Workshop Forum.

So why not also offer pinned threads on the main sub forum to Peter Sefton, David Charlesworth, Richard Maguire, Chris Tribe, Scott & Sergeant, and any other posters who also have a commercial offering for the members? That's only fair. But I guess then there'd be too much clutter on the opening page. 

Therefore shouldn't Steve's threads be re-allocated to the correct sub-forums and allowed to float? That way it's the most recent and topical posts are the ones that visitors see first. If site traffic keeps Steve's posts at the top that's great, it shows he's being the most active with fresh content and therefore deserves the publicity...that's show business!

By the way, I'm not having a go at Steve, I enjoyed his workshop build thread as much as anyone, I bought his DVD's and learnt a great deal from them. But this seems to set a precedent that, if followed through to its logical conclusion, is not in the best interests of the forum, as it opens up a process that could result in the forum silting up with under-visited, stagnant posts and suppressing the more topical content. So rather than let this become the thin edge of a problematic wedge, why not just fix it?


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## doctor Bob (10 Jan 2016)

My issue with the thread is the title keeps changing, so it's not a thread at all.

Great we have a really long thread but surely anyone could start a thread and just keep adding to it.


I just feel the thread is endless yet the original workshop is done. So it has become the Steve Maskery thread. Sorry Steve but I just speak honestly these days.

An example could be that Mailee posts individual projects up, rather than the Mailee thread which I'm sure would be just as long by now and therefore more looked at probably.


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## Wizard9999 (10 Jan 2016)

I have to say, when I questioned the continuation of the original build thread I had not anticipated another 'mega thread' being created, rather that each individual project would get its own thread.

Part of my logic for this was a point Steve then reiterated himself on a separate thread, i.e. that when a thread becomes enormous and very wide ranging it becomes near impossible to find any particular point. I do not know how the search works on UKW, but if this thread is 100 pages long in a year or two and has changed title twenty times if somebody searches for how to patch something will Steve's detailed and very helpful posts on how he did it come up in the search? If not then that would be a real shame.

Terry.


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## Steve Maskery (10 Jan 2016)

OK Chaps.
I can see that some people are getting a bit annoyed, and yes, I can see why. So I've asked Chas to unstick both threads so that they can die a natural death unless anyone actually posts to them.

And instead of posting my film-related work on here I'll do it on facebook. Not as many people will see it, but at least those who do will have chosen to do so. 

Is that a good solution?


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## NickWelford (10 Jan 2016)

I'm happy to see the film related stuff on Facebook but it would be a shame to lose it from here. Surely it could be posted in the general chat forum?


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## Wizard9999 (10 Jan 2016)

Steve

I for one would say the build thread should remain stickied a bit like the stickied threads on planning and building control rules or the building a shed Mike's way, it is a really helpful reference source of info on building a workshop (but maybe it should be in the projects section). My concern was more with the creation of a new 'mega thread' rather than discrete project specific posts.

I'm not sure what counts as film related work, so harder to comment on whether that is best on FaceBook or not. However, your posts have always had a different 'look' to the majority on here, with lots of action shots, I find them very informative and as they say 'a picture says a thousand words'. I have always assumed that your approach is because of your background in producing instructional videos. I appreciate that you want to monetize your knowledge and experience (I would want to do the same if I had any knowledge or experience of value to others), but rather selfishly I do hope that it doesn't mean you won't be making futher posts like the coffee table patch. But in discrete threads.

Terry.


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## lurker (11 Jan 2016)

I don't agree with, but understand the points made by others.

Chas, regarding Steve's workshop build thread, could you retain its "sticky " status but leave it locked, as a compromise?
It would be a shame that something that has kept us interested for so long is lost in the depths of old posts.


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## CHJ (11 Jan 2016)

lurker":gctxu5un said:


> ..Chas, regarding Steve's workshop build thread, could you retain its "sticky " status but leave it locked, as a compromise?
> It would be a shame that something that has kept us interested for so long is lost in the depths of old posts.



Yes this was the intention and is already actioned *Jim*, it's very difficult to strike a balance when moderators leave information links and threads up for folks to catch up with for 48 hrs. whilst things are discussed and sorted behind the scenes and then members chime in with what I see (maybe I'm over sensitive) public condemnation of Mod action/work in progress.

As regards 'mega thread' creation and objections to them elsewhere regarding the ability to search the forum for references, this is always a problem, one in particular that has been running for about 18 months has resulted in the reduction of individual searchable projects and members pieces to the point that the forum is lucky to see an obvious and searchable post/thread about a creation amongst the 30-50 UKW posts per day. So far this morning I think it's about 3% that relate to workshop creations.

But it would appear that the bulk of the membership would prefer to add a quick image (blog wise) rather than generate a new thread.


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## mseries (11 Jan 2016)

CHJ":134pv78l said:


> But it would appear that the bulk of the membership would prefer to add a quick image (blog wise) rather than generate a new thread.


For example my cyclone post of last night. It would make a very dull and short thread if I had created a new one. Had I had questions on how best to do it or if it was on-going thing then I'd have created a WIP thread of my own. Similarly with my bandsaw cat.


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## WoodMangler (11 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":1neywh8j said:


> Is that a good solution?


No. Some people (me included) don't 'do' facebook. I see nothing wrong with a relevant thread here, in the appropriate forum.


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## heimlaga (11 Jan 2016)

Well done Steve
Glad that you are back in business in your new workshop!


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## Graham Orm (11 Jan 2016)

Those of us that do FaceBook may choose to keep it to family and close friends.


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## BearTricks (11 Jan 2016)

You had me going with the phone call thing. 

In terms of the video kit, my degree is in film and photography (Or I call it cinematography when I'm trying to fool someone - and myself - in to thinking it wasn't a waste of time) and I worked in radio for the past three years so I'm fairly good on sound and editing etc. I might be able to help you in terms of kit and video production etc. It doesn't have to be as expensive as you think. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## woodshavings (11 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":jmk8erqd said:


> OK Chaps.
> And instead of posting my film-related work on here I'll do it on facebook. Not as many people will see it, but at least those who do will have chosen to do so.
> 
> Is that a good solution?



Hi Steve,
Why not YouTube? In my opinion, more controllable than face book and it can generate a small revenue.
John


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## brianhabby (11 Jan 2016)

woodshavings":323clvj4 said:


> Steve Maskery":323clvj4 said:
> 
> 
> > OK Chaps.
> ...


I would second that, you have 42 Facebook 'Likes' but 4452 subscribers on YouTube. Seems to me you already have an existing following on YT.

regards

Brian


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## JakeS (11 Jan 2016)

WoodMangler":3n4uoo0t said:


> No. Some people (me included) don't 'do' facebook. I see nothing wrong with a relevant thread here, in the appropriate forum.



Seconded - I tried using Facebook as it was supposed to be used and hated it. Not to mention that the only traffic I get these days is my alcoholic mother-in-law harrassing me!

I'd rather not have to bother with FB to see some decent woodworking content, and don't see why a thread in the appropriate forum shouldn't be fine. If Peter Sefton wants to promote his shop and/or school with some WIP projects of his own I'd love to see those too! ;-)


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## DiscoStu (12 Jan 2016)

YouTube is good. I like being able to subscribe to certain channels and get updates when a new video is posted. I enjoy Peter Parfitt and subscribe to his channel. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Maskery (12 Jan 2016)

Sorry not to make all this clear yesterday, but I was not expecting to be in hospital overnight and I was rapidly running out of battery.

When I said FB I meant blogging the filming process. I think if I blog that here in the same way that I blogged the build, I shall annoy quite a few people, as that will be very obviously promoting my films, and this is not the right place to do that (even though some of our members are the right audience). But of course, there is no use blogging anything where no-one is going to see it.

So I shall post the occasional update here, or just edit my signature as I have done, and blog on FB. 

I've not yet decided how I shall distribute any films. Some will be FB shorts, free to the world, just like my existing ones. But I do need to find a way to make money too. I don't have a job, I'm too young for a pension and somehow I need to try to earn a living. And whilst it is true to say that you _can_ make money from YT, you need an ENORMOUS following to earn a TINY income, IIUIC. Certainly 4k subscribers doesn't come close, that's just a Christmas Card list.

So I've either got to sell per film, like my existing model only download rather than DVD, or go the subscription route, like Patreon. I'm inclined to try the latter, but it is still a modest model. Steve Ramsey is the biggest I've found and his is still only1600 dollars per month. Patreon will take their cut, CC companies will take theirs and then he has all his production costs and hosting costs. I bet there is not much left.

And he is the biggest. If I got, say, just 500 as turnover, and there are lots of artists there for whom that is more typical, out of which came all my costs, you have to ask is it worth it?

Filming and distribution is not free, and I have to get better at persuading people to part with money for it. I'm going to try to fund the capital layout with crowdfunding, as I simply can't afford do all this again as a vanity project, like I did last time. But I am not at all sure that I shall succeed. With a 5K target, I would receive about 4.5K of that, and within that there is very little contingency indeed. And that is just capital outlay, never mind the actual work itself.

I shall live or die by popular opinion, and that is a very scary prospect indeed.

Anyway, I'm not ready to launch yet and I still feel a bit weird after my GA yesterday, so I'm going to lie down in a darkened room and wake up in April.


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## rdesign (12 Jan 2016)

from someone who views your posts a lot and enjoys them. there is no problem with you using the forum, just create a new wip for each project / sub projects. If you want to show us the filming stuff that is interesting just put it in the general chat off topic! how can that be a problem. 

I don't have much funds at this minute dam christmas .... but when I do i'll happily give a small donation towards it.

If people feel they can't post what they are making or doing when its related to our hobby woodworking or filming woodworking videos.. whats the point of this forum. which is great by the way 

keep up the good stuff and get better! on a plus note if monster threads aren't allowed any more you will have the record for ever more of the biggest, longest and most viewed wip so not al bad

Regards Richard


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## petermillard (12 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":3moyyo8z said:


> When I said FB I meant blogging the filming process.... But of course, there is no use blogging anything where no-one is going to see it.


Given some people's (understandable) reluctance regarding FaceBook, could you not add a blog to your workshop essentials website and duplicate the posts there, and/or on Google+/tumblr/wherever?



> I've not yet decided how I shall distribute any films...


Have you seen Vimeo's On Demand service Steve? Came across it the other day and whilst I haven't dug into it too deeply, it looks almost perfect for smaller-scale distribution of 'paid for' content; well worth a look, I think.

Speedy recovery.

Pete


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## Steve Maskery (12 Jan 2016)

rdesign":1585xsme said:


> I don't have much funds at this minute dam christmas .... but when I do i'll happily give an enormous donation towards it.



Thank you Richard 



petermillard":1585xsme said:


> Given some people's (understandable) reluctance regarding FaceBook, could you not add a blog to your workshop essentials website and duplicate the posts there, and/or on Google+/tumblr/wherever?


Whilst I do have the source code for my site, it is an off-the-shelf opensource product and it has NO documentation in the code. It makes it very difficult to edit. And whilst I have done coding in the past, that was a very long time ago and I no longer have the skills. I'm not saying a blog cannot be added, but I'd have to get someone else to do it.

Actually, I think the reality is that the whole site needs to be re-written, it looks dated and is not very mobile friendly (although I think the current version is - it's just that if I upgraded I would lose the edits I have made and whilst there are not many of them they are very useful and I've no idea how, or where, I made them...) There is someone on here who offered his help with all that. I forget who it was, I will have to hunt, but I've not forgotten his generous offer.



petermillard":1585xsme said:


> Have you seen Vimeo's On Demand service Steve? Came across it the other day and whilst I haven't dug into it too deeply, it looks almost perfect for smaller-scale distribution of 'paid for' content; well worth a look, I think.



That does look like something well worth investigating, thank you Pete.

I really need to crack on with this, I spend far too much time thinking about it and not enough time doing something about it.

But today is definitely a thinking day. And not even much of that...


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## Wizard9999 (12 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":1edb511h said:


> rdesign":1edb511h said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have much funds at this minute dam christmas .... but when I do i'll happily give an enormous donation towards it.
> ...



=D> :lol:


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## brianhabby (12 Jan 2016)

I still think YouTube is a viable option, at least to get you started. I don't know how much Steve Ramsey makes from Patreon but I do know he was making a living from You Tube long before he found Patreon. 

If nothing else, YT is a great platform for testing and giving small trailers with links to paid options, which is something many people on there do. Plus it is where people expect to find this kind of stuff. 

You will have to take everything on board and make up your mind which way to go and whatever you decide, I wish you all the best in your endeavours. And get well soon.

regards

Brian


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## monkeybiter (12 Jan 2016)

There are plenty of YouTube woodworking channels with people not just producing but showing work to a very ordinary standard, and many of these receive sponsorship and the resulting freebies from manufacturers.
If you were prepared to create a line of informative and fun videos/tutorials but perhaps to a less exacting standard than you would prefer, you might be able to reach a liveable compromise with enough moderate success to make you happy. 
You could also produce a more exclusive and perhaps lucrative line of higher end tutorials/guides.


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## BearTricks (12 Jan 2016)

I wouldn't use Facebook. I'm 25 so I'm probably in the target audience for Facebook but I can tell you that everything on Facebook aside from the main wall and the chat function is a nuisance to use. Add to that the day that a lot of people are against it and you're already losing potential views. 

I'd focus on YouTube, and integrate a blog function in to your website. No blog platform is ideal because there are dozens of them and none have really pushed through to the top like Twitter and YouTube have done, so you might as well make it as easy as you can and bundle it right in with the rest of your stuff. Just use YouTube to host videos because it's free and ubiquitous and then embed in to your site. 

If you do well enough on YouTube you can be generating money from 'free' content such as small videos and promos and trailers for your paid content while still offering premium content on your website. 

One way to do it is through making the first video in a series free, then people have to pay for the rest of the series through your site. 

If you look at the likes of Frank Howarth on YouTube with his process videos, then combine it with what Paul Sellers is doing you might be on to something. I'd probably be inclined to look at your stuff over Paul Sellers because something about him irks me. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## JakeS (12 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":2u0y7iiw said:


> Some will be FB shorts, free to the world, just like my existing ones.



Maybe I'm wrong, but I got the impression it's basically impossible to monetise FB video, while with YouTube if you get enough views/subscribers you can actually make _some_ money out of it.



Steve Maskery":2u0y7iiw said:


> And whilst it is true to say that you _can_ make money from YT, you need an ENORMOUS following to earn a TINY income, IIUIC. Certainly 4k subscribers doesn't come close, that's just a Christmas Card list.



To be blunt: you also barely have anything _on_ YouTube. There's sixteen woodworking videos on your channel, of which the most recent is two years old and the next most recent four years old - there's nothing for people to subscribe _to_ at the moment.

I very much doubt that the YouTube ship has sailed, but you'd most likely need to produce videos consistently - say, once a month at minimum - and keep making interesting content for a while before your subscriber count would go up to the point you can make a living. 



> Patreon ... Steve Ramsey is the biggest I've found and his is still only1600 dollars per month. Patreon will take their cut, CC companies will take theirs and then he has all his production costs and hosting costs. I bet there is not much left.



My partner subscribes to a digital artist on Patreon who gets something ridiculous like $25k a month for doing art tutorials and watch-me-paint videos. She shows people the final images she produces, but if you want to see the videos or the tutorials you have to subscribe. I think the problem with woodworking content is that a) there's a lot of it freely available, and b) the people who are on Patreon also produce free content. It seems from what I've seen that the key to a successful Patreon career is to start with an existing audience and then tell them that they only way they can get new stuff is to support you on Patreon.

I wonder if something more like Marc Spagnuolo's "Wood Whisperer Guild" might be a better approach than going through something like Patreon - but again, he gained an audience by putting consistent quality free content up on YouTube, and then told people that they could pay to be in a super-secret members' club where people could all chat to each other and watch super-secret members-only videos. He's still eating, so one presumes it worked out OK for him.




Steve Maskery":2u0y7iiw said:


> Filming and distribution is not free, and I have to get better at persuading people to part with money for it.



The question to my mind is: _do_ you, really? A lot of people _are_ making money on the free-video-on-YouTube-with-ads model, and a lot of other people are making money on the free-video-with-paid-supplements model, after all.

You're good at explaining things, present a genial personality, and your existing videos are great - to the point, easy to follow, and describing useful jigs and modifications. I don't doubt that people would subscribe and keep watching. If I were in your position, I'd be tempted to:
- Remove and re-upload your existing useful-tutorial videos (luthier clamp, finger-joint jig) to YouTube
- Use more enticing/general-appeal titles ("Build your own wooden luthier clamps from scrap wood", "Cut box joints on the router table easily")
- Get some slick modern-graphics title-cards for your videos and don't let the title run more than three to five seconds (see, say, "I Like To Make Stuff" for a really good example of graphical branding)
- Use a similar, unified branding on video preview pictures, rather than relying on YouTube's automatic random-point-in-video preview
- If you can remaster them in any better video quality than they already are, that's a bonus.
- Over the next few weeks/months/whatever you think you could commit to as a release schedule, drip feed a couple of other similar projects from your DVDs ("Make your own Biesmeyer-style table saw fence for $x with no welding", for example, would probably be a good one). So far, this costs you nothing but a bit of time - and keeps you busy.
- Find out how to turn on monetisation of your YouTube videos and do that. (I think I once saw someone suggest you had to have so many views, but who knows. I have some options that look related in my YouTube console and I have sixteen whole subscribers - and I'm not sure why that many!)
- As soon as you can, start recording new projects and tail onto the end of your existing ones. Maybe even re-record some existing ones in HD, if you ever notice any getting particularly popular.


I'm sure some people are massive video snobs but I very much doubt that most people would refuse to watch decent content in DVD-quality in 2016; the above gives you (IMO) a better chance of attracting viewers than your current channel, and it's relatively risk-free - the only thing you have to give up is the exclusivity of a few of your jigs to your DVDs, and you can always remove them from YouTube if the experiment hasn't gone anywhere after a year. From what you've said the DVDs aren't massively profitable to you anyway, so maybe it's worth the risk?


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## Graham Orm (12 Jan 2016)

Steve. For your information. I, as are many on here I'm sure, am a regular You Tube viewer, often choosing to watch it with headphones when the wife is watching wedding dress shows with my daughter. Woodworking shows are my main consumption. I have a long list of favourite makers that I follow. Some are better than others, the ones who are most professional usually have a 'pay to view' option. I have only gone up this route once with Rob Cosman. I can't see myself doing it again, however a lot of guys will and do. Even if only as a one off as I did.
The most professional film maker in my opinion is Frank Howarth, who loads all his stuff for free.
John Heisz has developed from an occasional poster to a full on weekly up loader with a long list of jigs and shop bits and bobs that he sells the drawings for. I have Adblocker which prevents all the pop up ads on YT. John made a request on one of his videos for folks to switch off Ad-Blocker so that the ads would run and he could benefit. I did. 
He also now has a forum on his site which I recently joined. It's small but attended daily and will work well to keep punters watching and connected. I'm interested to see how his site developes. He doesn't make fine furniture, just basic stuff, but he is talented and original.

I think everyone on here is willing you forward. Just do it, stop dithering and get stuck in. You know you will have a head start with all the members here on your side. ;-)


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Jan 2016)

I think that's about the best idea I've heard in a very long time indeed. Funded YT is definitely the modern way forward and I have no doubt whatsoever Steve would garner a good sized loyal following for three reasons that have all been stated by different people in this thread namely:

He's good at what he does and a good teacher
He's already a "face" which is about as close to celebrity as woodworking gets
He's blinkin well British and I for one tire of hearing American accents dominate the published footage on woodworking. Not because I'm xenophobic or anything silly like that, just because often the tools and surroundings aren't really relevant to the British woodworker. 

Even if Steve just filmed his daily bits n bobs in the workshop and posted it, the following would be there from which it would provide a platform to market WE or other forms of media. That would avoid what may well be considerable efforts in production planning and editing to submit a very slick published product. I think there is scope for a more "in the raw" type approach which is quite the opposite of Frank Howarth. Don't forget he's an architect and clearly a talented animator in the Wallace & Gromit sense. Those lengths need not be repeated for a valuable niche to be occupied that would receive viewers. I think that because woodworking is a niche special interest group it almost always fails to get much attention from mainstream TV and the few shows that have aired rarely get commissioned for multiple seasons. Norm being the classic exception of course but then he's.......American again....aggghhhh. So YT is the ideal medium because it cuts out all the middle men. I don't know a lot about it but my understanding is that regular youtubers get paid according to the number of views they get? Is that right? Does anyone know how the economics of YT work?


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## monkeybiter (12 Jan 2016)

Random Orbital Bob":17vbhpn8 said:


> Even if Steve just filmed his daily bits n bobs in the workshop and posted it, the following would be there from which it would provide a platform to market WE or other forms of media. That would avoid what may well be considerable efforts in production planning and editing to submit a very slick published product. I think there is scope for a more "in the raw" type approach



I agree entirely. You can create a constant flow of vids without having to constantly graft in the pursuit of production values. People will watch. Then maybe release a monthly/quarterly special.


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## Graham Orm (12 Jan 2016)

From Facebook.


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## custard (12 Jan 2016)

Random Orbital Bob":3qgvqzxl said:


> I don't know a lot about it but my understanding is that regular youtubers get paid according to the number of views they get? Is that right? Does anyone know how the economics of YT work?



It's all about advertising.

Which coincidentally is where this discussion began. The rules of this forum recognise that advertising will tend to creep like ivy over the internet, and therefore UK Workshop has rules in place to prevent that,

_"These forums are not the place for you to advertise your own product or company or post any affiliate or referral links in general threads."_

I've nothing against Steve and wish his venture every success. However, I think a _pinned_ thread on the main forum serving as a promotional platform contravenes this and, more seriously, opens the door for others to seek the same arrangement, which would clog up this forum to the detriment of everyone. I guess Steve agreed because he then asked to have his threads _unpinned_ which, as far as I'm concerned, is the end of the matter. Actually I'd personally be more liberal with advertising than the forum rules technically allow (I really don't see the need to exclude promotional links in signatures for example, you can choose to click or not as you wish) it's just _pinning_ which crosses a sensible red line.

But back to your question, how does YouTube work, it's simply all about advertising. And looked at in that context Graham Orm's post is the important one, because he raised the critical issue of Ad Blockers, which have the potential to change the look and content of the internet out of all recognition.

Google, Apple, and Face Book are locked in a struggle for supremacy. They hate each other. Google (who owns You Tube) gets most of its money from advertising. So Apple came up with the wizard wheeze that by enabling Ad Blockers on OS X and iOS 9 they could hurt Google's earnings. It's working in trumps. 

Graham Orm may have had the decency to switch off his Ad Blocker when viewing a favourite site, but he's in a tiny minority. Most users are realising that web pages load way faster with an Ad Blocker, their phone batteries last longer, plus they're spared the increasingly intrusive advertising that's becoming a growing irritant (remember my earlier point about advertising creeping like ivy). Consequently I believe over 30% of page views are now covered by an ad blocker and that number is growing all the time.

Here's the rub. You make money on You Tube not by having a big audience, but by showing that audience ads along with your content. With Ad Blockers in place you can have the best content and the biggest audience in the world, but if they don't see the ads then you don't receive any money.

Now the bigger players have solutions, sponsored ads and ads disguised as bona fide content. But for the small blogger and content provider Ad Blockers are potentially ruinous. Why would you bother creating and posting content when your revenue is dwindling away?

That's the reason Bob that I disagree with your recommendation. Starting a business based on free content on You Tube right now is like trying to get _into_ a building when someone inside has just shouted "Fire!" and everyone's rushing _out_.

If you're interested in reading more there was a famous article written in 2015 (ancient history now!) called Welcome To The Block Party which is still widely quoted,

http://www.theawl.com/2015/09/welcome-t ... lock-party


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## Mr_P (12 Jan 2016)

I've read a fair few mentions over the last few years saying the glory days of making decent money on youtube have well and truly passed. This online calculator seems to back this up

http://youtubemoney.co/

100,000 views per month
Estimated Revenue:
Between $136.00 USD - $340.00 USD per month

$340 US Dollar = £235.44 British Pound (todays rates).

The values above are based on the typical RPM range from $1.36 to $3.40.
(Revenue per 1000 Impressions). 

Personally I think 100k views per month is on the very high/ optimistic side but you get my drift, a lot of views for not that much money.


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## Wizard9999 (12 Jan 2016)

I think for many the internet has misled them into believing that content is free. We will pay now or later, either by making it economically worthwhile for content to be provided or by losing a lot of content when people stop creating it. There will still be content of course, some people are seduced by the belief that they too can become a celebrity by posting YouTube videos, but this type of content is rarely the best (though there are always exceptions to every rule).

Terry.


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## petermillard (13 Jan 2016)

There are plenty of 'how much do YouTubers earn' videos on YouTube, and the ones I've seen broadly agree with what Mr_P quotes above; $2-3k for each 1 million views, though ad rates do vary - click away from that ad after 4 seconds and it doesn't count as 'viewed' and like Custard says, ad blockers are also an issue for the content creators, even if it does make the overall viewing experience more pleasant for the punter. There's also the more recent problem of people 'sharing' YouTube videos to FaceBook, who oddly enough, don't share ad revenue on these videos; needless to say the take-down process is lengthy and convoluted, during which time your videos are generating revenue for FaceBook, not you...

So all things considered, unless you're 'vlogging' on daily basis and getting hundreds of thousands of views on each video, it's should come as no surprise that YouTubers typically look for other revenue streams - they sell t-shirts and hats, they rattle the tin at patreon, they do client work etc... 

And at the risk of stating the obvious Steve, not to have vlogged about your workshop build is a massive missed opportunity IMHO.

Cheers, Pete


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## Steve Maskery (13 Jan 2016)

I think Mr_P has summed up the stark reality nicely.

100,000 per month.

To put that into perspective, my Luthier Clamp video, which is probably one that has broadest appeal, hasn't (quite) had 100,000 views in five years.

Perhaps I should get a cat.


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## Mr_P (13 Jan 2016)

Or just stick to the original plan, crowd funding, patreon, paywall, etc.....

4,460 youtube subscribers if you can get 5% of them to give you £5 a month that equals

223 * £5 = £1,115 per month

Sounds very doable to a man with your following.


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## Wizard9999 (13 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":2yvwbxyt said:


> To put that into perspective, my Luthier Clamp video, which is probably one that has broadest appeal, hasn't (quite) had 100,000 views in five years.



I just watched it again if that helps :lol: .

Terry.


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## monkeybiter (13 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":2dc0l6wf said:


> To put that into perspective, my Luthier Clamp video, which is probably one that has broadest appeal, hasn't (quite) had 100,000 views in five years.



I've only recently started subscribing on YT, but only if there's a fair bit of content and it looks like there'll be more to come. If an account looks to be fairly static I don't bother. That's why I think you'd benefit from filling your channel with a few short and varied vids.


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## Penny (13 Jan 2016)

Personally I think that the idea of making a 'how to...' DVD and charging people for it is now a non-starter. With so many free Youtube videos available people just wouldn't buy it. If I am going to make something for the first time I always go to Youtube for hints and advice. I wouldn't pay out for a DVD and then faff around putting it on when I can just Youtube on my tablet in the workshop.


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## Mr_P (13 Jan 2016)

Paul sellars, Richard Maguire, Tom Fidgen and myself would disagree with you.

Plenty of free content on youtube yes but there is a market for people with the right skills and personality to charge for their expertise and rightly so in my humble opinion

The youtube model on its own no longer works unless you are doing it part time or don't need the moeny. Steve would need about 1/3 of million watchers per month to make about a grand, I don't see how that adds up for anyone doing it full time. Maybe if all you do is videos for teenagers with lots of waffley content or the best make up tips you can make quick videos whithout much work every day and rack up the money Steve and most of us on here don't live in that world.

Edit oops Yes DVD by post is a dead format, think Steve knows ths and will be choosing another option. I binned most of my dvd film boxes a few years ago and keep them in a case but still rarely watch them. Far easier to tape a film on the digi box, no long menus/ trailers first and it remembers where I stopped it.


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## Wizard9999 (13 Jan 2016)

Graham Orm":22gv9qjn said:


> The most professional film maker in my opinion is Frank Howarth, who loads all his stuff for free.



I recall watching his workshop build a while back but had never returned, so thanks for reminding me about him as I have just spent an hour watching a few vids as I ate my sandwich. That is a workshop to die for.

I know there has been some negative comment re US YouTube videos but this guy's relaxed style is very appealing to me and (I know I am about to light the blue touch paper here) for me his accent is much easier to listen to than many from the UK, all a matter of personal preference I guess.

Terry.


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## Graham Orm (13 Jan 2016)

Wizard9999":c7o8yoou said:


> Graham Orm":c7o8yoou said:
> 
> 
> > The most professional film maker in my opinion is Frank Howarth, who loads all his stuff for free.
> ...


How very dare you!


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## Halo Jones (13 Jan 2016)

> 100,000 views per month
> Estimated Revenue:
> Between $136.00 USD - $340.00 USD per month
> 
> $340 US Dollar = £235.44 British Pound (todays rates).



Well Frank Howarth has had about 19 million hits over the last two years (I assume his workshop build is the first serious stuff he put out).

Given the figures above that will have probably earned him the equivalent of £30,000 (using the mean of the two values above).

Not a huge amount but not just pocket money either!

Steve - If you came up with a plan for 10 - 20 "episodes" could you not approach the likes of Record Power and other "British" woodworking companies to sponsor your show along the lines of Woodwhisperer and other American examples?


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## Mr_P (13 Jan 2016)

Steve's workshop = Good size for UK but nothing wow sorry.
Frank Howarth = Wow omg thats huge even by American standards.

So not a very fair comparrison. 

Didn't work it out but some videos are 9 years including one on turning chess pawns with nearly 200k at nine years old and thats included in the 19 million.

This is one of his famous ones, 900k views in about 2.5 years
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7l3_THa-Yk

Most of his videos don't appear to have ads ? 

If all his videos had ads would he have as many subscribers / views ?

He's doing it for the love not the money. 

This time 18 months ago had anyone heard of doing it anyother way than youtube ???
Patreon/vimeo are all pretty new to me. The internet is changing and its changing fast. I'm sure Steve could build a following on youtube but he might be retired by then, plus youtube revenues in another 5 years might be even lower. Might even be gone/ dead on its feet, who knows. Remember friends reunited or myspace. Yahoo had it all 16 years ago they even had ebay before ebay, I bought a car on yahoo auctions and loads of other stuff.


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## BearTricks (13 Jan 2016)

Steve, I hope you read this because this thread is getting a bit muddy.

YouTube started when I was 15. I've been using the internet for about half my life now. There are people old enough to vote, own a home and get married that can't remember a time when the internet wasn't everywhere. The people who are looking at your stuff at the moment are people who lived most of their life without the internet then learned how it works. From now on everyone who uses it will be using it their entire life and these are the people you want to be targeting because they, increasingly, will be making up the bulk of your views. If you aim towards the UKW crowd you're preaching to the choir.

I'll be completely honest. I don't pay much attention to a website if what I want isn't there on the front page. If I'm looking at someone's furniture design website, for example, I want the portfolio there right away. I don't want to be clicking through a million categories struggling to find what I want. I'll just go elsewhere. I don't even use the YouTube website because it's too messy, I use the app on my Smart TV or on my phone because my subscriptions are there in a sleek, easy to use format. In fact, if I can't get something on my phone I'm usually not interested.

I rarely use Facebook because it's a mess in the same way. I believe Facebook will go down the pan because it's not instant access. People who learned to use the internet later in life will tolerate it because we knew a time where the internet was much more difficult to navigate. It's not because I have a short attention span, it's because so much of the internet is quick and simple to navigate that using a clunky website is more effort than it needs to be. For years you had to click around badly designed websites to get where you wanted to go, now we're getting streamlined and you can get what you want in less time, meaning you have time to fit more in - whether that's accessing more content or actually going out and sawing some wood.

The other side of it is consistency. People will subscribe to you not because you're doing something different but because you're you. There are hundreds of woodworkers online but I can name maybe ten off the top of my head and I look at probably three of them regularly. They're subscribing to the personality as much as the skills, and following someone means that you need to have something to follow. That means weekly videos, whether they're five minutes or thirty minutes. You're competing with the likes of Paul Sellers and Frank Howarth and they're churning out content regularly. If you don't match it people will just forget about you and be more likely to go for what's reliable. I like Frank Howarth, but I only subscribe to Paul Sellers for his skills. I wouldn't bother with him if there were someone more likable offering up the same stuff.

My point is that everything needs to be in one place and as easy to access as possible, and it needs to be constant. You need a blog; the blog should probably be on your personal website because something like tumblr limits your amount of followers because you can only follow it and get it in your feed if you're actually on tumblr. Blogspot users would be more likely to follow an equivalent woodworker on blogspot etc. You'd be better off carving out your own corner of the internet with a personal url.

The other thing is that there's an increasingly prevalent attitude on the internet that you shouldn't have to pay for content and that copyright isn't moral or ethical. I can't help but think that these people haven't spent time making anything because they'd probably think differently if something they made was at risk of being stolen. Models of monetising circumvent this by going for advertising rather than a straight fee. Obviously this doesn't make enough money so combining free videos with premium content seems to be a way to go. Shorter videos, or certain topics go up for free. In depth tutorials or multi-video projects are paid for. You might want to offer the first video up for free then get them to pay for the subsequent set. The website Tested (Not woodworking but they build stuff) do weekly projects, putting up a free video on Monday and then making you pay for the rest of the week's videos. You could offer a discounted yearly subscription for people who want all your stuff, and individual prices per-video for people who just want a video on a tablesaw jig for example.


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## Wizard9999 (13 Jan 2016)

Steve

The thoughts of others seem to accord with my own, that it is highly unlikely that there is a full time living to be made out of this. Sorry, but a bit like the recent concrete lamp thread, better to understand the potential before you have sunk a fortune into it buying kit. Earlier in this thread you said that you don't have a job, are too young for a pension and have to earn some money. If it is to be your full time single source of income surely making videos is not the only thing you can think of doing to earn a crust? I wonder if your thinking is limited by a predetermination about what you should do, rather than coming up with all the options and then sifting them down to those that are workable.

In short I wonder if you are trying to answer the wrong question. Rather than jumping to "how can I make money from woodworking films?", should you not be asking "based on my skill set what could I do to earn a living?"

Terry.


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## NickWelford (13 Jan 2016)

A most interesting thread. I feel for Steve, although we have never met, I think of him as a friend. I could never make any money from woodworking. I'm 64 soon, and have been in computing most of my working life, since well before email and even longer before t'internet. However, I understand and agree with what Beartricks has posted, although I can't get on with viewing on the phone. But aren't iPads wonderful things!


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## custard (13 Jan 2016)

Frank Howarth's videos have about as much to do with woodworking as "The Wrong Trousers" has to do with tailoring. 

The woodwork content is just a vehicle to display Frank's delightful and entertaining stop frame film making skills. People watch them to enjoy the cute woody characters and the engaging filmic effects, rather than to learn anything about cabinet making, consequently they're pretty much an irrelevance in terms of benchmarking the audience potential for woodwork training.


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## BearTricks (13 Jan 2016)

Frank Howarth seems more about the completed project. I don't think he has much interest in training people to do what he is doing. I'm not even all that impressed with his finished work, but I do enjoy his videos over a lot of other woodworkers and I think his audience is probably almost entirely woodworkers and makers of some sort. Even the cutesy stuff is geared towards woodworking and there's plenty of similar videos out there with a more widespread appeal for those who just want clever filming.

I think Fidgen is similar in that he'll just say "Then I shaved the legs down with chair devils" without explaining precisely what a chair devil is and how he went about doing it. The insistence on using his own music on his videos turns me off though. I know he needs a backing track but I always feel like I'm being tricked in to listening to someone's rubbish band when I watch him. I've thought about this a lot and I think there's a fine line to walk before you start turning people off with your style, although I guess you can't please everyone.


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## Graham Orm (14 Jan 2016)

custard":12mojgre said:


> Frank Howarth's videos have about as much to do with woodworking as "The Wrong Trousers" has to do with tailoring.
> 
> The woodwork content is just a vehicle to display Frank's delightful and entertaining stop frame film making skills. People watch them to enjoy the cute woody characters and the engaging filmic effects, rather than to learn anything about cabinet making, consequently they're pretty much an irrelevance in terms of benchmarking the audience potential for woodwork training.



I don't think you've watched many of his Custard. He made a wall unit for his utility room, a complete kitchen over many weeks, Seating for a local charity, a bathroom re furb building all the cabinets, and more that I can't recall right now. As well as masses of technical wood turning.


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## Graham Orm (14 Jan 2016)

Here's a link to an interesting rant by John Heisz about copyright (music) infringement and the pitfalls even when you've paid to ensure it's not protected. Maybe the reason that Tom Fidgeon only uses his own music. http://www.ibuildit.ca/Weblog/blog-76.html


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## custard (14 Jan 2016)

Graham Orm":hs3dnud4 said:


> I don't think you've watched many of his Custard. He made a wall unit for his utility room, a complete kitchen over many weeks, Seating for a local charity, a bathroom re furb building all the cabinets, and more that I can't recall right now. As well as masses of technical wood turning.



Fair point, if I get the time I'll try a few more.


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## Graham Orm (14 Jan 2016)

BearTricks":1oodck77 said:


> Steve, I hope you read this because this thread is getting a bit muddy.



I deleted the bulk of the post from BT because it was so long, I agree with his sentiments in general. "putting up a free video on Monday and then making you pay for the rest of the week's videos. You could offer a discounted yearly subscription for people who want all your stuff, and individual prices per-video for people who just want a video on a tablesaw jig for example." Rob Cosman has been doing it for several years now. I think he uses it as marketing for his courses, but I imagine he makes a tidy profit from his pay-to-view content.

I think that expecting the £'s to come rolling in is the wrong way to approach it. Like every business hard work and long hours will be needed to build it. Rob Cosman always looks knackered to me.....and stressed.


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## Steve Maskery (14 Jan 2016)

I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that I have never expected the £ to come rolling in!
This is about trying to do something good without having to subsidise every single one of my sales, which is what I did for the first few years of Workshop Essentials. And I'm not talking about labour cost, I mean hard cash spent up front vs receipts.

I'm happy to do the work, as long as it doesn't make me poorer!

Thank you all for the many, varied, considered and constructive contributions to this discussion, it really is much appreciated.


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## Benchwayze (14 Jan 2016)

So there I was wondering what to do with that 'cruddy' bit of oak, I had. In the end I made an asphalt spreading float for me old Dad! He was pleased as Mrs. Punch's husband! At the time I didn't realise the wood was 'Pippy Oak'! :mrgreen:


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## Wizard9999 (14 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":19pp9xux said:


> *I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that I have never expected the £ to come rolling in!*
> This is about trying to do something good without having to subsidise every single one of my sales, which is what I did for the first few years of Workshop Essentials. And I'm not talking about labour cost, I mean hard cash spent up front vs receipts.


No, sorry Steve, quite the opposite in fact.



Steve Maskery":19pp9xux said:


> I don't have a job, I'm too young for a pension and *somehow I need to try to earn a living.*


I am afraid I am very confused about what the 'exam question' is. Is it break even or is it about earning a living? I think the answer will be quite different, surely.

Terry.


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## BearTricks (14 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":2wzkcinz said:


> I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that I have never expected the £ to come rolling in!
> This is about trying to do something good without having to subsidise every single one of my sales, which is what I did for the first few years of Workshop Essentials. And I'm not talking about labour cost, I mean hard cash spent up front vs receipts.
> 
> I'm happy to do the work, as long as it doesn't make me poorer!
> ...



What I'm trying to get at is, whether it's your intention or not, that it is possible to make money and some people are clearly doing it. For most of them it's not the only string to their bow, but it gives them an important presence on the internet and it creates very good advertising for their work and their other ventures such as teaching.

Speaking of that, have you ever thought about teaching? Are you, or could you be set up to have three or four extra people in and around your workshop to do a course on making a coffee table etc? People would pay a few hundred pounds at a time. Perhaps you could approach local schools and colleges also?

I tried to do a course with the Manchester college but a month or so before I started I got a letter through saying they'd cut their budgets and dropped that course as a result. There's not much around this neck of the woods in the way of training so you could be filling a gap in the market.


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## Graham Orm (14 Jan 2016)

Steve Maskery":lpcfzz8w said:


> I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that I have never expected the £ to come rolling in!
> This is about trying to do something good without having to subsidise every single one of my sales, which is what I did for the first few years of Workshop Essentials. And I'm not talking about labour cost, I mean hard cash spent up front vs receipts.
> 
> I'm happy to do the work, as long as it doesn't make me poorer!
> ...


I wasn't implying that you personally were expecting it to be instantly lucrative Steve. Just a generalisation. You have the set up, I would think the only outlay required would be a half decent camera and some good lights, maybe some editing software, lots of free stuff available.


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## JakeS (14 Jan 2016)

custard":3vviv51w said:


> Frank Howarth's videos have about as much to do with woodworking as "The Wrong Trousers" has to do with tailoring.



I'm reminded of a food industry analyst who recently warned Lidl and Aldi to stop introducing new SKUs because "nobody goes to Lidl to buy German meats, they go to get discount essentials". Well actually, yes, I kind of do go to Lidl almost entirely because they have a fantastic range of cured meats (albeit, to be fair to the chap, not always German). So do about two-thirds of the people I personally know who shop there. Where else am I going to find edible speck, bresaola, black forest ham and so on - _Waitrose?!_ Not to mention the best pizza salami I've ever had. Oh, and their prices are pretty good too, I guess.

I have no doubt that some people go to Lidl because their prices are excellent, and I have no doubt that some people view YouTube videos about woodworking purely to learn new techniques. But I also have no doubt that some people go to Lidl to buy German meats, and some people watch woodworking YouTube videos to just watch someone else work through a project because it's fun and engaging and interesting to do so.





If anything I kind of think the stop-motion stuff gets in the way of Howarth's videos half the time. I get the impression that people like Custard - coming from a professional cabinetry background - sometimes miss the point that a lot of these YT channels have, because they're not really in the target audience. For those of us who are hobbyists and work on things at the weekend in our garages, there is interest and value in just watching project videos where someone makes a thing from beginning to end. I mean, Jimmy DiResta is wildly popular and he barely even talks on his videos, speeds all the work up to the point where you can't see what he's doing half the time and makes the kind of thing that your average weekend warrior will never, ever need or want to replicate (shop hoardings and weird knives, half the time). There will undoubtedly be things that people like Custard take for granted that I'll learn from a Frank Howarth video or a DiResta video, but half the time the point is more that _it really is that simple to just put things together and end up with something else_. When I was younger (and, of course, before YouTube), I assumed that making tables and cabinets was a black art that I had to learn super-secret woodworker skills to do. Seeing a guy build a table from start to finish is an inspiring thing, even if I don't go out and immediately build a duplicate table from that guy's plans. And some people will!

And this leaves aside the pure entertainment value. I'm a software engineer, so I spend all day writing code and - while debugging is a fact of life - I'm largely unsurprised when it does what I expected it to do. I don't want to come home and watch videos of people coding super-simple projects that I could do in an hour or two on my own. My partner, who is an illustrator, marvels when I write a short bit of code to do the simplest things. It's amazing to her! I can understand that to a professional cabinetmaker, joiner or whatever the average YouTube build video is just watching someone do a sloppy, inefficient and over-wrought version of their day job and then ruin it even further at the end by spraying it with polyurethane or painting it pink. But some of us don't find the notion of building a replica-chippendale tallboy that accessible, and it's fun to watch someone else do it. And then ruin it at the end by spraying it in polyurethane or painting it pink.


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## JakeS (14 Jan 2016)

BearTricks":1z3br5sd said:


> You need a blog; the blog should probably be on your personal website because something like tumblr limits your amount of followers because you can only follow it and get it in your feed if you're actually on tumblr.



Also because Tumblr is a horrible, horrible place with a horrible, horrible interface filled with horrible, horrible people.



Regarding free vs. paid content: it's not a directly-usable model, but consider the approach Spotify takes: you can listen to music for free as much as you like so long as a) you don't mind adverts between your songs, b) you don't get to order the things that you listen to and probably most cleverly, c) you don't get to download the songs to a local cache on your device. If you want to listen to albums all the way through from beginning to end and not get interrupted by ads, then you pay a subscription fee. And that last point (c): if you're a heavy user from a mobile device (a large proportion of younger generations) then it's going to be more cost-effective to buy a Spotify subscription so you can download the music once and keep it on your phone than having to pay data fees to your mobile provider every single time you listen to a track. Obviously streaming it over and over is also more costly to Spotify, but they've figured out their market and know that it's enough of an enticement to subscribe that it's worth it to them.

The lesson to me is that you hook people with free content and then you persuade those people that they really want to give you money. Some small proportion of Spotify listeners pay for a subscription, but they have enough users overall that it's apparently enough for them.


I wouldn't worry _too_ much about ad blockers, personally. They've been around for ages and it's always been a back-and-forth between people who use them and people who think they're KILLING EVERYTHING. As others have said, YouTube and the like are not the end of the solution - getting popular on YT will get you _some_ income (from ads and from schemes like YouTube Red) but it's as much a means to an end. Once you have an audience, you can get money out of them through any number of other means - selling merchandise works for some people, selling plans, bothering them to subscribe on Patreon or simply sponsorships for your videos, where you get paid directly by the advertiser and adblockers are irrelevant. _But to get at all of that_, you need to do the work to build up your audience in the first place.









Regarding YouTube, I would look at Bob Claggett (Clagett? Clagget? I forget) of _I Like to Make Stuff_. He puts out a video more or less once a week, supports his family... and nearly all of the things that he makes are really simple, often rough-looking things. This last week his project was a bike rack made of framing timber nailed together - there's a couple of useful small tips in the video, but the most impressive part of the project was that he didn't once fire the nailer into his hand by accident, and the tricks were things he's mentioned before in other videos. It's received 50k views in less than a day.

Now, ILTMS appeared and became popular almost overnight, by YouTube standards - and it seems to me it's down to two things:
- Very savvy branding and presentation
- One really cool project

The really cool project (a hidden bookcase door - 2.5 million views) is probably a _bit_ of a lucky break, but at the same time there are several other hidden-bookcase tutorial/walkthrough projects on YT which aren't nearly as popular. The savvy branding, I'm pretty certain, is far more influential a factor. And to be blunt, this is an area in which the existing Workshop Essentials material leaves a lot to be desired.


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## petermillard (14 Jan 2016)

Seems like everyone has a firm opinion of 'what Steve should do...' - except, perhaps, for Steve himself. It also occurs to me that some of the folks posting here may not have see Steve's other threads on the subject - this original one about crowdfunding possibilities, and the follow-up one about Patreon; apologies if all concerned are familiar with the details, I only mention them here as we seem to be re-hashing an awful lot of the same ground in this thread.

One more thought; any and all of us may have an opinion on this, but only Steve Maskery knows how many DVDs he shifted back when Workshop Essentials was a 'vanity project' (his words); that must surely give him a clue as to how likely he is to succeed financially with the next phase of 'W.E.2 - the download'? The rest of us are just blindly whistling in the dark, really...

Cheers, Pete


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## BearTricks (15 Jan 2016)

JakeS":37iddtog said:


> BearTricks":37iddtog said:
> 
> 
> > You need a blog; the blog should probably be on your personal website because something like tumblr limits your amount of followers because you can only follow it and get it in your feed if you're actually on tumblr.
> ...



I don't agree about the interface, I think it's probably the best of all the blogging platforms. That particular site is just an example of bad design. I think it's a shame on tumblr because it was adopted by groups of very talented artists and writers and became the cool place to be for a while, then because of that a lot of people with nothing to offer flooded in and turned it in to a cesspit. 

There was probably a time when the owners of the site were riding high on the fact that the best artists and makers on the internet were using their platform, now it's full of angry teenagers with opinions that aren't developed enough to share, all trying to shout the loudest. Tumblr has become a byword for the internet's entitled, self centered youth and I'm sure the owners don't like the negative stigma because it's sending the site in to a downward spiral quality-wise, but at the same time they cant do anything about it because there's millions of those users and they've replaced what's making them money.

I might have a soft spot for Tumblr because I got on their 'radar', which is a rotating gallery of maybe five featured posts that everyone who visits the site sees, with a painting that I'd done. This was perhaps three years ago. I had google analytics running and I got a few million hits on my page over the next couple of days.

Now if that was YouTube and I had some advertisements going, I'd have made some money out of it. I thought of adding a PayPal donate button at the time because I was bound to get a few quid out of those people visiting but I felt as if it was probably exploitative. I should have done it, because ultimately nothing came of that and now I only visit Tumblr because there are a few artists on there holding the fort.

That's an idea actually *Steve*. Add a PayPal donate button to your website and periodically ask for donations. I didn't used to like it because it seemed like begging, but with crowdfunding now a big thing it's not a big deal and people are happy to donate a couple of quid to something that's helping them out. I think people are also a lot more forgiving of those things when they know you're not raking it in. Also set up a newsletter using something like MailChimp. You can get a good quality newsletter going fairly easily and it keeps people updated with what you're up to so they know when you're bringing out a new product.


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## custard (15 Jan 2016)

BearTricks":tsql66gr said:


> it's full of angry teenagers with opinions that aren't developed enough to share, all trying to shout the loudest.



Substitute "pensioners" for "teenagers" and you've neatly described sharpening threads in the hand tool section!


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## Mr_P (15 Jan 2016)

I looked into paypal donate button a while back for an idea I had, wasn't suitable unless you are genuine good cause / charity.

Then I discovered patreon and I'll go down that route when I decide the time is right. You don't have to go for monthly you can use it a bit like crowdfunding and just ask for x per project / episode. As Pete M has just said this has all been covered and we are going round in circles here.


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## Wildman (15 Jan 2016)

Mr_P":8clruwgt said:


> Steve's workshop = Good size for UK but nothing wow sorry.
> Frank Howarth = Wow omg thats huge even by American standards.
> 
> So not a very fair comparrison.
> ...


just seen this for the first time, the filming is ace, so clever and obviously done for love rather than money. Steve like all of us you want to make a living doing what you do best, it appears to me that teaching small groups is the way to go, you can build a following using Youtube, and many woodwork forums. Or maybe your educational vids/DVD's could be the by product and pin money resulting from short run commercial products and commissions. Full or part time lecturing at schools/colleges. Your skill is unquestionable, how to turn that into a living is everybody's endless quest. Do you have a spare room so you could take paying students on 121 courses, all these and more ideas have no doubt been thought of and suggested before so Good luck.


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## JakeS (15 Jan 2016)

Getting a bit off-topic, but:



BearTricks":1lqpsrke said:


> That particular site is just an example of bad design.



FWIW: it's not on tumblr at all. It's just an article that talks about - amongst other things - why tumblr is an awful place. Search for the bit that says "So let’s talk about Tumblr" for the beginning of that section, if you're interested in Scott Alexander's point of view.

The part I strongly dislike about Tumblr's interface is the same part that he complains about - that it's impossible for people to just leave comments at the bottom of posts, they have to "reblog" the entire bloody post onto their own blog and _then_ add commentary. 

I was going to say "the part I like the least about Tumblr's interface, but the part I like the least is that they recently seem to have followed Pinterest's "my way or the highway" approach and actually insist that you have a Tumblr account before you can even _read_ blogs on Tumblr. That alone makes it completely and utterly unsuitable for any kind of commercial presence, even leaving aside the awful UI choices and the roving gangs of teenage fascists.



Curiously, as soon as we started discussing Tumblr, the ads on the side of the page have started showing Italian lingerie instead of combination squares and Japanese saws. Huh.


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## monkeybiter (15 Jan 2016)

JakeS":3j82xebf said:


> Curiously, as soon as we started discussing Tumblr, the ads on the side of the page have started showing Italian lingerie instead of combination squares and Japanese saws. Huh.



Mine's still showing tools, I think it's just you  :wink:


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2016)

custard":3o8dr525 said:


> BearTricks":3o8dr525 said:
> 
> 
> > it's full of angry teenagers with opinions that aren't developed enough to share, all trying to shout the loudest.
> ...



There speaks someone who is secure in the certainty of his own immortality! :lol: 

Age happens to us all, as there is but one alternative to growing old. We have one choice in the matter; we can age gracefully! (hammer) 

Regards 8)


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## sploo (18 Jan 2016)

My $0.02...

I've long been fascinated by these YouTube content creators and how the economics actually work - mostly, if I'm honest, because I wish I had that kind of time to dedicate to being creative. This inquisitiveness is only increased by interviews I've seen where some have noted that the money you make on video viewings is tiny.

It hasn't escaped my attention that, over time, you tend to spot clues by implication from their videos or writing, and to be fair, occasionally explicit statements and honest answers to questions. I won't name names because it'll look like I'm talking down their achievements in "going it alone" (which is not my intention), but I will say that it likely makes a big difference if you happen to own property which you rent out, have family businesses (run by parents to which you occasionally contribute), have a spouse on a high income that "invests" in your idea etc. All of those could easily result in a few hundred pounds/dollars per month of income - which could well be enough to make the difference between getting by or having to jack it in and return to the day job.

Certainly if a young guy (40s at the oldest) has quit his job and has just built a workshop in his garden that must have cost at least $100k (I've seen estimates of $400k for one particular YouTuber's workshop) there must be investment or capital coming from somewhere. That's not something I could do.

So, I think perspective on realistic income is required.

OK, on a more positive note: Steve; what's your USP?

I'm not getting into marketing babble, but why should I pay you for anything? What do I think when I see/hear of your channel? If it's Matthias Wandel, it's obviously machinery/gearing/crazy inventions/a "renaissance" man. Frank Howarth: great entertaining video production/nice segmented turning. Paul Sellers: old school master craftsman. Colin Furze: Erm.... bonkers :wink:

Steve? Well, jigs perhaps. In fact, I can't immediately think of another "jigs" guy - which is of course a good thing.

How to monetise that? Well, Wandell's videos are free, but he sells plans for his machines. You'd probably be having to make several hundred sales a month for a decent income, but a good 5-10 minute (free) YouTube video showing how to make an unusual/useful/unique jig would be entertaining, and contain just enough information to whet my appetite to pay a fiver for a set of dimensioned SketchUp plans in order to build one myself.

One other avenue: training. You now have the workshop space, so could you offer training courses (in part advertised/promoted by your videos)? Granted that opens a huge can of worms re insurance and liability, but most such training courses I've seen seem to be in the £100/day region.

Four students for a weekend's work once a month is £800. One hundred £5 plan sales a month is £500. That's £1300pcm (pre tax and overheads) right there. Granted I suspect it's nowhere near that easy or we'd all be doing it.

EDIT: typo fix


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## Wizard9999 (20 Jan 2016)

sploo":28ts56xj said:


> So, I think perspective on realistic income is required...
> 
> OK, on a more positive note: Steve; what's your USP?
> 
> How to monetise that? Well, Wandell's videos are free, but he sells plans for his machines. You'd probably be having to make several hundred sales a month for a decent income, but a good 5-10 minute (free) YouTube video showing how to make an unusual/useful/unique jig would be entertaining, and contain just enough information to whet my appetite to pay a fiver for a set of dimensioned SketchUp plans in order to build one myself.



I'm not sure the right question is being addressed in this thread, maybe the question has changed since it started or was just misunderstood in the first place, but Steve most recently said (my emphasis)...



Steve Maskery":28ts56xj said:


> I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that* I have never expected the £ to come rolling in!*
> This is about trying to do something good without having to subsidise every single one of my sales, which is what I did for the first few years of Workshop Essentials. And I'm not talking about labour cost, I mean hard cash spent up front vs receipts.
> 
> *I'm happy to do the work, as long as it doesn't make me poorer!*



Based on that I do not think it is a question of making an income, it is about not losing money doing it. With digital delivery via YouTube I presume there is very little cost over and above time, so presumably it is more about recovering the cost of any initial investment.

Terry.


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## Flynnwood (20 Jan 2016)

Hi Steve

Park up internet (for now) if your primary concern is to get some money coming in. [1]

Get face to face with as many people as possible (retail and trade).

[1] Painting may not be a first choice but you can do it, and small steps will lead to others. 

Follow the money, the rest can wait a while.

IMVHO


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## wcndave (8 Feb 2016)

Another $0.02 in short summary form.

Create your community:

Post videos on YouTube (understanding that production values are important)
Post key moments (announce new project, project complete, new video) on Facebook - no blogging there.
Blog on your own site - text and photo details in a follow along method like you've done here on UKW.
Post only interesting or new or odd things, or highlights on UKW that would interest seasoned veterans

Then make it a little commercial

Put premium content (projects and WE2) online as paid for online content, linking from YT / FB / Blog
Put Patreon button on blog and just see what happens
Put Ads on all YT content
Post the odd subtle reminder of your content on UKW, as part of other posts you make ;-)

Small steps, and see what happens.


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