# Really sharp chisels



## graduate_owner (15 May 2013)

Hi everyone.
I've been sharpening a batch of chisels recently, and I think they are as sharp as I can get. BUT, I tried them on my (not very hairy) forearm and they glide nicely over the hairs without cutting them - or me, thankfully. They are Footprint, Tyzack and Marples blue chip chisels, so they are not cheap, but neither are they Veritas etc quality.

SO

do people really get their chisels sharp enough to shave with, like they say in the books, or is that just theoretical?

I use 3 grades of diamond 'stone' (they're cheapies though), followed by a good quality extra fine diamond stone. I use an Axminster honing jig, or sometimes an old Eclipse jig, followed by a freehand honing on a leather strop (cut from an old boot) with green honing compound (again from Axminstor - Koch I think).

The chisels cut softwood across the grain with some tearout, so perhaps they are not as sharp as they should be (I don't know), but I can't see what else to do.

Any comments?


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## Jacob (15 May 2013)

I got one of these:


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## Richard T (15 May 2013)

Before others jump in on this, I'd like to mention that genuine razor sharpness can be achieved with a very coarse sharpening medium. I have got to hair shaving sharp when in the middle of rescuing badly pitted irons or chisels using very coarse emery cloth. 

That isn't to say that the edge would be much good at leaving a smooth surface on wood, but nevertheless, capable of shaving. I think it is all down to how carefully you get a burr and then how you take it off rather than pushing it over to the bevel side. You can end up chasing a burr from side to side but eventually you'll get the knack of leaving nothing but the edge. 

With your variety of chisel make I shouldn't think that they could be all duff - it's prob'ly just a case of practice.


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## bugbear (15 May 2013)

graduate_owner":jfjgxpiu said:


> Hi everyone.
> I've been sharpening a batch of chisels recently, and I think they are as sharp as I can get. BUT, I tried them on my (not very hairy) forearm and they glide nicely over the hairs without cutting them - or me, thankfully. They are Footprint, Tyzack and Marples blue chip chisels, so they are not cheap, but neither are they Veritas etc quality.
> 
> SO
> ...



Removing hairs (in truth) does not require a super-sharp edge, so if your chisels truly won't they're really not very sharp at all.

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (15 May 2013)

This is just a suggestion, and I'm not sure if it'll solve the problem or not.

One of the snags with using multiple grades of sharpening stone and a chisel in a honing guide is that you have to polish out all the marks made by the last stone on each change of grit right across the honed bevel. The finer the stones go, the more work you have to do to polish out scratches.

To avoid this, try the following. On a medium stone, set the chisel up in the honing guide, and establish a bevel - just enough to form a burr across the whole edge, no more. Next, increase the bevel angle by resetting the chisel in the jig, but only by about a degree or two. Then hone on the finest stone for a few strokes. Now turn the chisel over, and still on the finest stone, place the chisel dead flat on the stone, and draw back to sever the burr. Sometimes, you can see the burr 'float' off in the stone's lubricant. Sometimes, you have to feel with a finger-end to see if the burr is still there. You may have to alternate between bevel and flat side a time or two to finally clear the burr.

Now take the chisel out of the jig, and give it a test on softwood end-grain. It should be sharp. If not, you need to reset the chisel in the honing guide and do some more work on the finest stone. Three or four tries, and you'll know how much work the finest stone needs to do to establish a sharp edge. 

Because you are only working the very edge on the finest stone, you don't need to do as much work as you do when polishing the whole bevel established by the coarser stone.

Next time you need to sharpen, cut away the worn metal with a coarse or medium stone (experience will tell you which you need in any given case) then reset in the jig, and polish the edge on the finest stone.

Stropping may not be needed in all cases, but should refine the edge a touch. You can restrop several times before you need to rehone.

As RichardT said above, practice does help. I sometimes don't quite get it spot on, and that's after thirty years of part-time fiddling about. Someone sharpening day-in-day-out will get it right much more regularly.

Edit to add - you'll only need the finest razor-sharp hair-shaving edge for the finest paring duties. For chopping out waste with a mallet, the edge from a medium stone will usually be sufficient. Once the bulk of the waste is gone, you can resharpen for the final paring cuts. Alternatively, you can keep a few chisels sharpened to the ultimate for fine work, and a few sharpened 'medium' for chopping duties.


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## twothumbs (15 May 2013)

As a child I was shown to test edges by running the iron or chisel down a peice of newspaper to show a clean cut. I still do it yet though whither it is the best or not I do not know. Anyone know but beats cutting your arm? Best wishes to you all.


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## Dangermouse (15 May 2013)

Just a quickie to say if you strop on both sides of the chisel you will make it more blunt then sharp.


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## MIGNAL (15 May 2013)

I strop both sides. However on the flat I place it on the strop and pull back once and once only. A sharp chisel/plane blade should be able to cut hairs fairly easily, that's at the base of the hair. 
Some claim that they can actually 'chop' the hairs i.e. half way up an individual hair. Some even claim a greater degree of sharpness by mounting a Plane blade in a vice, throwing a piece of Silk cloth into the air and through the effects of gravity alone, watching it fall onto the said sharpened Plane blade whereupon it is divided into two.
Amazing.


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## Dangermouse (15 May 2013)

Yes mignal that's the way to do it. But have come across people who strop the back the same as the front. ie lifting the handle a bit. Also saw a guy using a polishing mop years ago to try to sharpen a chisel, ended up with a bevel both sides !!


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## andersonec (15 May 2013)

graduate_owner":1xnsmfqc said:


> Hi everyone.
> I've been sharpening a batch of chisels recently, and I think they are as sharp as I can get. BUT, I tried them on my (not very hairy) forearm and they glide nicely over the hairs without cutting them - or me, thankfully. They are Footprint, Tyzack and Marples blue chip chisels, so they are not cheap, but neither are they Veritas etc quality.
> 
> SO
> ...



It's really difficult to teach sharpening with words on a forum, your best bet is to do a search on youtube for something like "chisel sharpening" and no doubt a shed load will pop up, watch a few and pick the best bits which refer to what you are trying to achieve from each and have a practise, if it is going wrong then just try and figure out where it is going wrong, the penny will soon drop.

Andy


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## Phil Pascoe (15 May 2013)

And it's even more difficult when 50 different people tell you 50 different ways.


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## rdesign (15 May 2013)

make sure the chisel is flat completely flat turn it into a mirror then sharpen the bevel without a flat base u will never have a sharp chisel.


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## Jacob (15 May 2013)

phil.p":ku0tr1jl said:


> And it's even more difficult when 50 different people tell you 50 different ways.


Well yes and that's why I went back to basics and discovered it worked better than the "improved" methods.


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## Graham Orm (15 May 2013)

You don't mention whether or not you are taking the burr off the back of the edge, no matter what stone you use, unless you do this you will not get them completely sharp.


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## barkwindjammer (15 May 2013)

If a blade can cut or 'pop' hair then its prolly TOO sharp


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## Peter Sefton (15 May 2013)

Grayorm":3ixm442p said:


> You don't mention whether or not you are taking the burr off the back of the edge, no matter what stone you use, unless you do this you will not get them completely sharp.



I agree and I usually do this by stropping in my palm or on the leather strop, so quick to do and will turn a sharp edge into a razor edge. You can also ruin the edge, but as with all things in woodworking it’s down to technique.

Peter


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## Jacob (15 May 2013)

Yep the burr is it. It's the tangible evidence that you have actually honed right to the edge. It must also go all the way across as proof that you have also honed right across the width. Particularly with plane blades as they often get hollowed in the middle so the burr comes up quickly at each side but takes a lot longer to arrive in the middle, and can get neglected ("surely it's sharp by now" etc etc).
I take it off with repeated short alternate dabs of bevel and face on the stone , followed by stropping on hand. Not sure what the latter does but it feels reassuring somehow!


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## Peter Sefton (15 May 2013)

Stropping in the palm just bends the wire edge back and forth until it just falls away, if the wire edge is too big then the strop is needed.

Peter


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## graduate_owner (15 May 2013)

As expected, really useful help and advice. Thanks guys. I will start by working on polishing the backs of the chisels, then attending to the bevel and the subsequent burr, and see how that goes. Hopefully it's look out hairs.

K


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## Jacob (15 May 2013)

graduate_owner":3cme41p1 said:


> As expected, really useful help and advice. Thanks guys. I will start by working on polishing the backs of the chisels, then attending to the bevel and the subsequent burr, and see how that goes. Hopefully it's look out hairs.
> 
> K


OK except I wouldn't waste your time polishing the face/flat. It get polished with use in time, and every time you turn it over to take off the burr.
I'm not sure where this face polishing idea came from but it's not a good one and not traditional.


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## KRS69 (15 May 2013)

Hello,
I've been sharpening chisels for years and the only thing I can add is practice makes perfect. I only strop on one side as I do find it seems to blunt if done both sides.


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## rdesign (15 May 2013)

jacob if the face has a hollow or isn't flat it makes it impossible to get two perfectly flat planes coming into a sharp point so you need to flatten the top inch of a chisel or a plane blade use the make it turn into a mirror or all even then u know u have it flat and all the hollows out most machine marks are left on cheap chisels. I even had slight flattening to do on my two cherries chisels and my clifton 5&1/2 plane blade which r both higher quality tools.

thats why I recommended flattening the back/face of the chisel

my two cents Richard


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## Jelly (15 May 2013)

graduate_owner":dljetddo said:


> They are Footprint, Tyzack and Marples blue chip chisels, so they are not cheap, but neither are they Veritas etc quality.



If they're as good as the Footprint, Tyzack and Marples tools I have, I can't see how Veritas could manage to better them...


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## Jacob (16 May 2013)

rdesign":35jhl6sb said:


> jacob if the face has a hollow or isn't flat it makes it impossible to get two perfectly flat planes coming into a sharp point so you need to flatten the top inch of a chisel or a plane blade use the make it turn into a mirror or all even then u know u have it flat and all the hollows out most machine marks are left on cheap chisels. I even had slight flattening to do on my two cherries chisels and my clifton 5&1/2 plane blade which r both higher quality tools.
> 
> thats why I recommended flattening the back/face of the chisel
> 
> my two cents Richard


There was a fashion for flattening/polishing the whole face which resulted in a lot of people struggling away unhappily for hours and hours. So just the top inch is a lot better!
Personally I don't even think that is necessary - as long as you can turn the flat side down enough to remove the burr is all you need. There's a thread here flattening-chisel-backs-with-lapping-film-t68506-225.html
If the chisel/plane is so bad that you can't turn the burr* then there is the "without a ruler" trick - you lift a bit to make a very slight bevel on the face. I know this is sacreligious with regards to chisels but in the real world it works perfectly well and as the chisel gets used and resharpened, the face gets flatter and the bevel disappears in time.

* This makes it a duff chisel so the simplest thing is to use another one, or if it's new send it back.


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## riclepp (16 May 2013)

Quick get the tin foil hats on, back flatting is back on the radar....TAKE COVER!!! :shock: :shock: ](*,) ](*,)


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## Jacob (16 May 2013)

riclepp":1knc26pk said:


> Quick get the tin foil hats on, back flatting is back on the radar....TAKE COVER!!! :shock: :shock: ](*,) ](*,)


Don't panic I haven't got anything new to say on this. End of the road, same old, same old!


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## Vann (16 May 2013)

Peter Sefton":z3megdcu said:


> ...this by stropping in my palm or on the leather strop...


I was taught to strop in my palm, but not on a leather strop. 

I thought they were two different functions. Stropping on your hand is to remove the burr. Stropping on a charged leather strop (or MDF) is to give a finer edge. Am I wrong?

Cheers, Vann.


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## Peter Sefton (16 May 2013)

Vann":wyl58f2k said:


> Peter Sefton":wyl58f2k said:
> 
> 
> > ...this by stropping in my palm or on the leather strop...
> ...



No you’re not wrong, a fine wire edge can be removed by hand a large wire edge can be removed on the strop and you can improve the edge on the strop or as I said before ruin it (before sharpening war breaks out)
This depends on how fine the grit size and how much metal you have needed to remove to achieve a fresh edge, this does also depend on the quality of the steel in the chisel and if it can take/hold that edge.
Cheers Peter


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## bugbear (16 May 2013)

graduate_owner":2viqbk6x said:


> Hi everyone.
> I've been sharpening a batch of chisels recently, and I think they are as sharp as I can get. BUT, I tried them on my (not very hairy) forearm and they glide nicely over the hairs without cutting them - or me, thankfully. They are Footprint, Tyzack and Marples blue chip chisels, so they are not cheap, but neither are they Veritas etc quality.
> 
> SO
> ...



My guess (from the information given) is that the chisels were a second hand "box lot", and are all steeply back bevelled to a large degree. This prevents normal sharpening from giving you a good edge.

You certainly have enough sharpening kit to do a good job.

If a large and steep back bevel is present, even a "perfect" low bevel will not result in a fine cutting edge.

But there's not really enough information for this diagnosis to be solid.

BugBear


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## graduate_owner (16 May 2013)

This is starting to get complicated, but I shall persevere nevertheless. Thanks guys.

K


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## G S Haydon (16 May 2013)

Just think carefully before applying back bevels to chisels unless it serves you a purpose. You might not like using screwdrivers.


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## Jacob (16 May 2013)

G S Haydon":a9tjbzuq said:


> Just think carefully before applying back bevels to chisels unless it serves you a purpose. You might not like using screwdrivers.


Oh yes only in emergencies. But a sharp screwdriver is better than nothing.


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## Dangermouse (16 May 2013)

Sharpening is mainly b u l l s h i t wrapped in mythical ceremony, served up with a good dose of conviction. I say suck it and see. Try everything, see what works for you and practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice....................................................


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## Eric The Viking (17 May 2013)

Do you have an old 35mm SLR camera in a cupboard somewhere? 

If so, the lens, removed and used back to front makes a really high quality magnifying glass. 

Just once, so you can _see_ what's happening, go through the sharpening process you use, and look at the edge with your lens as you go. If you're 'going down through the grits', either using stones or scary sharp (wot I use), you will see the roughness of the blade edge decrease as you go. When it's truly sharp you can see it doesn't have a microscopic sawtooth, but it's a pretty straight clean edge.

When you've done that once, forget about it! But I can shave my arm easily with the plane irons and chisels I sharpen, sometimes not at the base of the hair either. The crucial difference seems to be getting the grinding marks from the next-coarsest sharpening out, as you go finer. If you go a step at a time, it works, for me anyway.

Jacob is absolutely right about not polishing the backs - you need the bit near the edge to be as flat and smooth as poss, but the rest is wasted effort.

Hope that helps,

E.

PS: by the way, I don't believe that stropping to remove the burr actually helps, if you want ultra sharpness. The problem is you're actually fracturing the metal to remove it (work hardening it along a very narrow line). This leaves a rough edge, not a fine bevel. Like a kitchen knife, which, if sharpened on a steel, is actually serrated at a microscopic level, it will cut well with a sawing action (or skewed, if a plane), but not when square on to the work. If you keep going down through the grits, you abrade to a finer edge. 

I do strop very gently, usually on my jeans, but that's to clean the burr off during the process. At the end, on the finest wet+dry, I don't.


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## Sawyer (17 May 2013)

I don't really care whether my tools cut hairs, as I'm not a barber.  
All that interests me is that they perform correctly on wood.
The term 'razor sharp' is an exaggeration anyway - look at a real razor and note how little metal there is behind the cutting edge. Such an edge wouldn't survive a single cut in wood


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## No skills (17 May 2013)

******* hell this is getting way too complicated. If you can get your chisel sharp enough to cut the wood you are using easily and safely then its sharp enough, no need to ponce about with anything more. Your sharpening will improve with practice and consistancy of technique getting you back to work quicker than before (and probably sharper than previous efforts). The only thing else I would like to add is the cheapo diamond stones wear much much faster than the good ones, worth an investment in better ones come replacement time.


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## Dangermouse (17 May 2013)

Damn ! This looks like another sharpening thread, I'M GOING TO KILL MYSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ](*,) :evil:


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## Jacob (17 May 2013)

We are aLL DOOMED.

Hope that helps.


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## J_SAMa (17 May 2013)

Maybe your leather strop is rounding the edge over. Try applying the compound onto a piece of wood or MDF.


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## bugbear (18 May 2013)

Eric The Viking":3rswqksi said:


> Do you have an old 35mm SLR camera in a cupboard somewhere?
> 
> If so, the lens, removed and used back to front makes a really high quality magnifying glass.
> 
> Just once, so you can _see_ what's happening, go through the sharpening process you use, and look at the edge with your lens as you go.



That's a good tip. Wehn you're trying to learn about sharpening, a lens can be a trustworthy source knowledge.

BugBear


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## speeder1987 (18 May 2013)

bugbear":1hzjiaob said:


> Eric The Viking":1hzjiaob said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have an old 35mm SLR camera in a cupboard somewhere?
> ...



If you don't have an old slr lensone you can get a loop for a few quid. Try the watch repair places like cousinsUk

John


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## G S Haydon (18 May 2013)

Dangermouse":2gf4nv49 said:


> Damn ! This looks like another sharpening thread, I'M GOING TO KILL MYSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ](*,) :evil:


 :lol: Sharpening topics should be a sticky.


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## Graham Orm (18 May 2013)

Dangermouse":3axxakka said:


> Damn ! This looks like another sharpening thread, I'M GOING TO KILL MYSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ](*,) :evil:



How will you sharpen the knife?


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## MIGNAL (18 May 2013)

Classic.


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## Dangermouse (18 May 2013)

Grayorm":1ilk60za said:


> Dangermouse":1ilk60za said:
> 
> 
> > Damn ! This looks like another sharpening thread, I'M GOING TO KILL MYSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ](*,) :evil:
> ...


 I think I'll go for a rounded bevel, held in a jig with an oil stone resting on some scary sharp and with some waterstones standing by in the background. (hammer) :deer :mrgreen: :shock: ccasion5:


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## Noel (18 May 2013)

Dangermouse":3a4zenh3 said:


> Grayorm":3a4zenh3 said:
> 
> 
> > Dangermouse":3a4zenh3 said:
> ...



And when the cops come around to take pictures you need some blingy shiny LN type of tools sitting randomly in the background......


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## Jacob (19 May 2013)

Dangermouse":3h7clw5f said:


> Grayorm":3h7clw5f said:
> 
> 
> > Dangermouse":3h7clw5f said:
> ...


I hate to say it and hope it doesn't tip you over the edge, but rounded bevels are the norm with knife and sword enthusiasts. Not one but TWO :shock: making what they call an "appleseed" or "lenticular" bevel. Shocking!
Google it if you don't believe me.

So if you must kill yourself a couple of rounded bevels will make it easier!

Hope that helps.


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## Dangermouse (19 May 2013)

=; [-X [-o<


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## Eric The Viking (19 May 2013)

*Things-You-Didn't-See-In-The-Movies-But-Should-Have #53:*

_Hattori Hanzo cursing his Tormek jig._

E.


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## Kalimna (19 May 2013)

To be fair, Jacob, you are quite correct in your assertion regarding bevel contours and Japanese blades. But, you fail to mention that these bevels are maintained with waterstones, preferably natural, with no hint of oil 

Adam


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## Jacob (19 May 2013)

Kalimna":nusrwiz5 said:


> To be fair, Jacob, you are quite correct in your assertion regarding bevel contours and Japanese blades. But, you fail to mention that these bevels are maintained with waterstones, preferably natural, with no hint of oil
> 
> Adam


Er. so what difference would that make? Non at all except the rust and the mess as far as I can see.


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## bugbear (20 May 2013)

Kalimna":s9y7f4yh said:


> To be fair, Jacob, you are quite correct in your assertion regarding bevel contours and Japanese blades. But, you fail to mention that these bevels are maintained with waterstones, preferably natural, with no hint of oil
> 
> Adam



Here's something you won't see on UK TV. A craftsman demonstrating his skill on a chat show.

Lots of good stuff on display, including sharpening. The bevel is flat, No dipping or rounding. He uses the "balance the tool on the large single bevel" technique, so the bevel controls the position of the tool, not the other way round. There's a quite spectacular demonstration of how flat the bevel is...

This is at 4:20 into the video, for the impatient, but the whole thing is an interesting watch.


EDIT: here's the link  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... eROdh15wnY

BugBear


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## Jacob (20 May 2013)

bugbear":1uikcrom said:


> Kalimna":1uikcrom said:
> 
> 
> > To be fair, Jacob, you are quite correct in your assertion regarding bevel contours and Japanese blades. But, you fail to mention that these bevels are maintained with waterstones, preferably natural, with no hint of oil
> ...


Er, where is it?
_the bevel control the position of the tool, not the other way round._
The other way round presumably being the craftsman controlling the position of the tool? Makes much more sense to me - sharpening and actual woodwork alike.


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## Dangermouse (20 May 2013)

私は、花崗岩のスラブを中心に怖いシャープを使用し、幻想的なシャープネスを得る。約2000グリットに下る。私は通常ベリタスジグでブレードとノミを保持するが、時にはフリーハンドに行く。あまりにときどき油石を使用しますが、マジシャンが、彼らはあまりにも乱雑であり、私は鋼の近くに水をほしいと思わないウォーターストーンズ好きではありません。


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## G S Haydon (20 May 2013)

Great vid BB,

Really interesting to see the contrast of a genuine Japanese craftsman using a water stone vs what I get up to. Free hand flat bevel, I love you.


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## Graham Orm (20 May 2013)

Dangermouse":2k8q59zz said:


> 私は、花崗岩のスラブを中心に怖いシャープを使用し、幻想的なシャープネスを得る。約2000グリットに下る。私は通常ベリタスジグでブレードとノミを保持するが、時にはフリーハンドに行く。あまりにときどき油石を使用しますが、マジシャンが、彼らはあまりにも乱雑であり、私は鋼の近くに水をほしいと思わないウォーターストーンズ好きではありません。



Use the scary sharp around the slab of granite, I get the sharpness fantastic. I go down to about 2000 grit. I hold the blade and chisel in the normal Beritasujigu, but I go to the free hand sometimes. You can use the oil stone from time to time too, but the magician, is a messy too they, I do not have the water like stones do not think you want the water near the steel.


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## charvercarver (20 May 2013)

graduate_owner:

Don't worry it really isn't complicated, you just have to make the two sides of the chisel form as thin a point as you can. Anything that removes metal will do this (diamond,oilstone,waterstone,ceramic,the kerb outside your house etc.). As you can tell there are some firmly held beliefs about the best techniques, but bear in mind that all of these people (I'm pretty sure) have sharp chisels, therefore all these techniques will get you there. 

Personally if you are just starting sharpening I would advise you go with flat back/flat bevel to begin with. This is purely for simplicity, keep the back flat on the stone, keep the bevel flat on the stone as you work it and you will get the chisel as sharp you like. Later to save time and effort you can bring in other techniques.

Just to show off a bit I popped down to the shed and with a bit of stropping I got my carving chisel to do this:















It's hard to get the detail to come out on the photos, but I managed to split the hair lengthways. This took about 5 mins touching up from how I had left the chisel a couple of weeks ago. A truly expert sharpener could get a finer edge than this, but for carving it is enough. 

Hope this helps.


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## Jacob (20 May 2013)

Grayorm":25jhc7ct said:


> Dangermouse":25jhc7ct said:
> 
> 
> > 私は、花崗岩のスラブを中心に怖いシャープを使用し、幻想的なシャープネスを得る。約2000グリットに下る。私は通常ベリタスジグでブレードとノミを保持するが、時にはフリーハンドに行く。あまりにときどき油石を使用しますが、マジシャンが、彼らはあまりにも乱雑であり、私は鋼の近くに水をほしいと思わないウォーターストーンズ好きではありません。
> ...


Fascinating. I guess Beritasujigu is Veritas jig. That's not very Japanese is it! He's right about water and steel though - you get rust.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 May 2013)

I've used waterstones for thirty years, and not once have I had a problem with rust.


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## JakeS (21 May 2013)

phil.p":2z69kxwd said:


> I've used waterstones for thirty years, and not once have I had a problem with rust.



You've clearly been clued in to the ancient Japanese sharpening lore of "drying off your tools after getting them wet"...!


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## Eric The Viking (21 May 2013)

I've been told you can use Fernox in the lubricating water to inhibit rusting. 

I saved some from the heating system to use for that purpose, but all it did was grow mould :-(

E.


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