# DBT85s Workshop - Moved in and now time to fit it out



## DBT85

Some links to jump to points of interest
22/05/2020 - Ordering begins
27/05/2020 - Groundworks Begin
03/06/2020 - Concrete is down
06/06/2020 - Bricklaying starts
12/06/2020 - Framework begins
15/06/2020 - Walls are up
22/06/2020 - Framing complete
25/06/2020 - Roof insulated and membraned
15/07/2020 - Roof tiled


Time Lapse videos
Part 1 - Site clearance
Part 2 - Digging a hole
Part 3 - Filling it up
Part 4 - Brick and Block
Part 5 - Framing

Well while Coronavirus may almost certainly put an end to any hope I had of getting this done in 2020 (I'm a freelancer who broadcasts sport...so its going to be a long year!), I figured I'd start getting things down and plans on show so that I can find out what I'm going to be doing wrong and fix some of it before I get there. That'll all also help me budget better and get more ideas on various stages. Needless to say I've read up a lot on other threads!

Right now I have a workshop in my house, a room that's around 3x4.5m in size. Its warm and dry and a nice space, but it also ends up being a room for "we need to tidy up where can we put this". It's also next to my kids room so I basically can't get in there after 7pm. On top of that, this room and my 3x3m office are basically the home of all my tools. The plan is to house everything in the workshop and then just keep a tool tote in the house for the small jobs. That frees up 2 rooms in the house for more junk, ahem, useful things.

After reading the many threads and trying to pick up tips from them all in turn, I've been making models of the workshop in sketchup as much for something to do as for planning. This may transition to Fusion 360 depending on boredom levels with no work and time to kill. It may also make some aspects easier if changing the design.

*Considerations*

Build it Mikes way
Clay sub soil
Slab will be 25m from the nearest point a truck can get to
No building regs

*Features*

pitched roof
double door
no windows (this _could_ change)
fully insulated
plenty of power
ethernet

*Thread plan*

Initial plans
you all explain why I'm wrong and or stupid
updated plans
detailed step by step on what I'll have to do/get and when
many questions/suggestions
mother of all cut lists and shopping lists
many photos of it going wrong

*Initial Plans*
The garden currently features a tatty old shed that has many many holes in although oddly none in the roof! Weather, flora and fauna have all taken their toll and its time to get it cleared of my father in laws tat and get the site cleared. 2 Birch trees may need to be redistributed to either another part of the garden or the log pile. The wife wants them saved if possible.










The Workshop
I want to maximise the size before needing to adhere to building regs so will be staying under 30m2 internal. As I want to build over 2.5m in total height the workshop needs to be either 2m from any boundary or pass PP. Either are an option at this stage.

I'm looking at a pitched roof in the region of 30 degrees (7/12 pitch), a nice wide double door as the entry way in one of the gable end walls and at the moment no windows (I prefer controlled light, more wall space, less heat loss and less opportunity for thieving) however I may relent and put some in the long wall facing the garden with an internal shutter of some kind.

With a rough building length of 6.5m , the rafter ties (where used) will be placed as high as allowed to give me more head room while also offering some storage space. This will also reduce the size needed for the ridge beam as it won't have to span 6.5m but instead a shorter distance TBC. The main house also features this style of rafter ties and I wish when the extensions were done 30 years before we moved in they had done the same it really does make a room feel bigger! Alas flat roofs prevail.

Power and network will be trenched in (with a gap between them) approx 25m from the house with my electrician to give me the electricity cable spec. We could probably get away with 6mm 2 core SWA just fine but will most likely be 10mm 2 core SWA to keep the regs happy. We have a TT supply so a earth rod will have to be installed near the workshop negating the need for 3 core from the CU.

As much as I detest surface mounted electrics and wiring in conduit they do offer variability and ease of install. My guy is happy to leave me to the grunt work and to just turn up when the bits all need joining and testing.

Many sockets on walls and a few in the centre of the floor. Because sockets are life. Panel LED lighting throughout.


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## DBT85

The Floor
The workshop is going to have a concrete slab likely in the region of 200mm - 250mm thick. This is in part due to the close proximity of trees. I believe Mike suggested I put A142 mesh 50mm from the top and bottom. It is as yet unknown on how much hardcore will be required underneath. I have not yet dug an exploratory hole to see what I have under the grass. While I'm 100% certain its clay less than 15cm down, the bigger question is root systems from the adjacent trees. If this is the case then I could be looking at about 13 bags of type 1 and 7-8 cubes of concrete. The bags I can get lifted into the garden on some farm machinery, but the concrete will have to be lugged over, most likely in a dumper because pipper barrowing it all.

Since I won't be using it all day every day my plan is to not try and use the thermal mass of the slab. I'll insulate over it and then have a floating floor on top of the insulation. Were it to be used more regularly I might consider an insulated slab. PIR is something we have here in spades and can get readily for very reasonable prices. I can use that to also leave a small gap to run some sockets into the middle of the floor.

The walls
Walls to be constructed on 600 or 610 centres depending on the sheet goods from 100x50 treated timber. Single top plate as rafters will also be on the same spacing. Current plan calls for a big double door hole in one gable end wall and no window holes, but the latter might yet change. I shall annoy Mike by using the word header rather than lintel in the event that I do add windows.

Internally lined with 11mm OSB, filled with PIR board and sheathed in some kind of feather edge. Regular treated will of course be cheapest but if money were flush I might spring for something more exotic. Much like the roof options below, you're looking at 3x the price for Siberian Larch over regular treated wood. I don't know enough about whether you really can just leave Larch to do its thing (and so save on painting/maintenance) or not.

The roof
Also constructed on 600 or 610 centres this time from 150x50 treated timber on a 30 degree 7/12 pitch. Rafter ties to be used in places to add storage and reduce the size of ridge beam needed. Spanning 6.5m clear would need something substantial. I'm not sure how easy its going to be be to get hold of a beam that long even without it being that fat!

Like the walls, the internals would be lined in 11mm OSB so even if some scrote were to lift the tiles, progress is going to be hampered while also giving plenty of fixing space inside for things and stuffs.

Roof would be covered in either Onduline or a Decra/Metrotile type covering. The latter being about 3x the price of the former may force my hand. I'd rather spring for the better roof than the better wall cladding if I had to choose.

The contents
Right now the contents for this workshop are going to be an array of metal shelving units that currently live in my office, covered in various tools, paint, storage containers for plumbing/decorating/tiling/electrical paraphernalia, as well as the contents of my existing workshop. That comprises a English style workbench made to Paul Sellers design, and a custom MFT assembly table/wood storage unit not unlike the one that MacLellan uses (the Gosforth Handyman), just with more holes in. Also there is a very cheap Silverstone drill press, a Record Power BS250, an old Record Power DX4000 (it's blue it's that old!), a Triton spindle sander and a Record Power BDS150 belt/disk sander and a recently acquired (yesterday) Evolution table saw and Triton planer/thicknesser. Naturally in time I'd be swapping out some of those for more substantial units.

The Budget
I don't plan on starting this until I have funding in place. I really don't want it dragging out for months on end because I'm waiting for a little money to finish x or y. 

If I were to go bare basics for the roof and walls I estimate I could get the whole project done for £5-6k. That's around £1400 for the base, £1300 for the timber, £1200 for the cladding and the rest taken care of in electrics, hire costs, dpm, dpc etc. As I mentioned earlier PIR board we have here in abundance and if I recall we last bought a load of about 30 50mm sheets for something like £130? I also have bricks a plenty so some saving is made there. I do also have a lot of clay roof tiles but many have seen attention from the frost monster. I'd rather not use them but they are an option.

So far the only quote I've had for concrete was 7m3 for £1280 :shock: Mostly because they only have 6m3 trucks and so I'd need 2 with one being mostly empty. I'll get a few more quotes I think!

I know that was a GWOT with not nearly enough pics, but they will follow I promise!


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## Steliz

Sounds like quite a project and I'm watching with interest but I would suggest that you use less homemade TLAs in your posts.


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## DBT85

Steliz":e6cn0n1s said:


> Sounds like quite a project and I'm watching with interest but I would suggest that you use less homemade TLAs in your posts.


CIAWOYSW?

Can I ask which ones you struggled with? Or think others might? I don't think I've made any up and I literally had to look up what TLA meant haha. 

I'm happy to change anything for clarity.


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## MikeG.

That all sounds OK to me, other than the concrete price. £120 ish per cube for that I reckon, although that might come down as building activity falls off a cliff.

The ridge beam doesn't need to be continuous, but we can look at details of that later.


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## Steliz

I reread your post and actually, there are only 2 I'm not familiar with. I didn't know what a TT supply was (thanks Google) and I couldn't work out GWOT either. Google says it's 'Global War On Terrorism'! Oh, and the one in your response so, that's three. No matter, life goes on.


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## Fitzroy

My 2p. 

Go for planning then you can design what you want. Unless it’s outlandish or you’re in a beauty spot its surely worth the time/cost for the small risk of a refusal. 

On a 25m run 10mm won’t cost you much more than 6mm. You’ll not regret the extra capacity but could if you expand your power use in the future. 

No windows sound like an unpleasant place to be for hours, your site looks lovely is it’d be a shame to lose the connection with it as you’re making shavings. 

My shed was clad in local larch and its weathering lovely. My reading was about a design that makes sure it can drain properly and is well ventilated with no spots that remain damp long term. I’m only 3 yrs in though so history will judge. Big overhangs are used on the continent in many of their timber buildings to protect walls and windows. 

Not sure where you are with all this cheap PIR. In the past 3 years since our first building works and our last building works kingspan/celotex (think that’s PIR) has doubled in price. According to my builder who moans constantly about the price increases on it. 

I’m planning on using rock wool R45 in the walls due to the sound absorbing properties, though a little less insulating, but I have closeish neighbours. 

Beware these are just opinions of a rank amateur! Though your post was a great read, well thought out and sounds like super build that I look forward to seeing. 


Fitz.


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## lurker

That looks a very rural site so I can’t see why you need to be two metres from the boundary.
You are not going to set the neighbours on fire if the shop burns.


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## DBT85

MikeG.":l6yfgzdy said:


> That all sounds OK to me, other than the concrete price. £120 ish per cube for that I reckon, although that might come down as building activity falls off a cliff.
> 
> The ridge beam doesn't need to be continuous, but we can look at details of that later.



Great, thanks Mike.

Out of interest. Is a rafter tie needed for every pair or is it every other or every third or something?



Steliz":l6yfgzdy said:


> I reread your post and actually, there are only 2 I'm not familiar with. I didn't know what a TT supply was (thanks Google) and I couldn't work out GWOT either. Google says it's 'Global War On Terrorism'! Oh, and the one in your response so, that's three. No matter, life goes on.



Ahh. TT is just one of the 3 earth supply acronyms. I'd never ehard of it before about a week ago to be fair.

GWOT is Great Wall of Text. I'm certain I've not made that one up myself but perhaps I have. :lol:


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## DBT85

Fitzroy":2psruj3l said:


> My 2p.
> 
> Go for planning then you can design what you want. Unless it’s outlandish or you’re in a beauty spot its surely worth the time/cost for the small risk of a refusal.
> 
> On a 25m run 10mm won’t cost you much more than 6mm. You’ll not regret the extra capacity but could if you expand your power use in the future.
> 
> No windows sound like an unpleasant place to be for hours, your site looks lovely is it’d be a shame to lose the connection with it as you’re making shavings.
> 
> My shed was clad in local larch and its weathering lovely. My reading was about a design that makes sure it can drain properly and is well ventilated with no spots that remain damp long term. I’m only 3 yrs in though so history will judge. Big overhangs are used on the continent in many of their timber buildings to protect walls and windows.
> 
> Not sure where you are with all this cheap PIR. In the past 3 years since our first building works and our last building works kingspan/celotex (think that’s PIR) has doubled in price. According to my builder who moans constantly about the price increases on it.
> 
> I’m planning on using rock wool R45 in the walls due to the sound absorbing properties, though a little less insulating, but I have closeish neighbours.
> 
> Beware these are just opinions of a rank amateur! Though your post was a great read, well thought out and sounds like super build that I look forward to seeing.
> 
> Fitz.


Thanks for the input Fitz.

I've been in 2 minds over the PP. On the one hand its just easy to do what I want and not have to faff with it. On the other hand with the shape of the garden and length of the workshop, to keep it all a minimum of 2m from the boundary would mean the far corner would actually be nearer 3m from the boundary. It then starts to get silly when you then add in overhangs and gutterings.

In addition, when I started to look at getting the plan the other day I noticed that the OS map of our property doesn't match what is actually here. The second extension was put on this house in 1985 (by the previous owners) and the OS maps don't show it. I don't know if it's relevant but it's one more thing I'd have to chase up and find out about. I'd not want to submit anything only for a visit to point out that I have a 70m2 extension on the back of the house that isn't on the OS map (but which definitely had permission). 

In my current make-it-up-as-I-go plan the overhangs are 250mm on either side and 300mm out the back and 600mm out the front. As I said, I'm literally making it up as I go. I had an idea of having a kind of deck area under the roof (at a shallower angle) to tie the building into the garden a bit more. That corner of the garden also gets sun later in the day which might make it nice. Again its added cost and complexity.

I'm fairly certain that the sparks would only do the electrical run in 10mm at a minimum anyway. Its a case of "6mm is in reality perfectly fine, but to meet the regs it needs to be 6.2mm" or something daft.

The windows is one I've been thinking about and am still undecided. It's an added expense and I'm really not bothered about natural light (my job has required me to sit in an artificially lit box for 17 years now). But being able to see the kid playing and stuff would be nice.

The PIR has some from farmers sales. My Father in law trundles off to auction and comes back with piles of the stuff. The last load was £130 for I believe about 60 1200x600x50mm sheets. He was upset at paying the £130 as 2 months before he could have had some at £120. The farmer life!

This is most likely going to be a slow burner anyway so there's time to look at it all. With the announcement from Boris a couple of hours ago and the reality of things as they are, 2020 really would be a miracle for me to get this done. A real shame as in January it looked like I've have it up by September!

I thought for a horrible second that I'd just lost all of that and I didn't have the heart to write it again!



lurker":2psruj3l said:


> That looks a very rural site so I can’t see why you need to be two metres from the boundary.
> You are not going to set the neighbours on fire if the shop burns.


It's exceedingly rural but the rules are the rules. In reality I could probably do whatever I wanted and nobody would ever be any the wiser. I'd rather not take the risk though so planning permission would be the only way. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue to get though.


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## Inspector

How come you want treated wood for the wall timbers? I can understand on the sill in contact with the foundation but why the walls?

Pete


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## MikeG.

DBT85":37xhn5ag said:


> .......Out of interest. Is a rafter tie needed for every pair or is it every other or every third or something?......



The roof has to be looked at as a whole. The stiffness of the wall plate and the strength of the ridge beam come into the equation, as do the existence or otherwise of purlins. The point it, you can generally have widely spaced ties, or no ties at all, if that's what is designed in from the start. My suggestion is to say what you would ideally end up with and let's work backwards from there.


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## MikeG.

Inspector":s1rtzl3s said:


> How come you want treated wood for the wall timbers? I can understand on the sill in contact with the foundation but why the walls?....



All constructional timber should be treated. In fact, it's hard to find non-treated construction timber these days in my experience.

The cill (we call it the sole plate) won't be in contact with the foundation. It will be on a plinth. I suspect from your question that you are American, where the foundation and plinth are cast as one. We don't do that.


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## Inspector

Canadian actually.  Thanks for the answers.

Since we don't use treated wood in most cases above ground other than the sill/cill/sole plate, and not always on them, that's why my question. 
I have a pressure treated wood foundation for the basement walk out house we have (builder talked us into it ) and the second level is all untreated. Outdoor structure like decks get the treated wood. In termite areas in the US they use treated wood for their houses. Too cold here for the little beasties. :wink: 

Pete


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## DBT85

Had more prices for concrete but for different mixes.

One for Gen3 (C20 I think) from concrete2you/aggregate industries which was £107 per m3 inc VAT with only a 30 min wait time. Even with an extra hour wait added on its £990 for 8m3.

One for C30 from the concrete network which was £133 per m3 but with an hour wait time. Extra time is £2 per min plus a £45 admin charge plus vat. So its £1071 before any extra wait time.

Any direction on what kind of order I actually need? 

I've even seen RC concrete for pours that have reinforcing mesh in.


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## Steve Maskery

My 2p having been down this road. In no particular order:

Floating floor works well. I can recommend Caberfloor as a top layer. Not much more expensive than chipboard, hard-wearing and doesn't need any finish on it.

Decide how many sockets you want and then double it. Really.

Insulate, insulate, insulate, especially if you are not going to have a proper heating system.

Mixing 8x4s with 2400x1200 leads to premature ageing.

I'm very glad I used Cemtiles on the roof. I say "I" but, you know..... 

As well as power and data, consider also a water supply, even if it is only to an outside tap. A sink in the corner inside, though, is a luxury that I now would not want to be without. I have an instant-heat tap and it is brilliant.

I know that wall space is at a premium, but try to have at least one window.

If you go down the PP/Building Regs route, befriend your BCO early on. You want him with you, not against you. Mine was very helpful indeed.

If I think of anything else I'll add it.


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## DomD

DBT85":2fwtq70t said:


> Had more prices for concrete but for different mixes.
> 
> One for Gen3 (C20 I think) from concrete2you/aggregate industries which was £107 per m3 inc VAT with only a 30 min wait time. Even with an extra hour wait added on its £990 for 8m3.
> 
> One for C30 from the concrete network which was £133 per m3 but with an hour wait time. Extra time is £2 per min plus a £45 admin charge plus vat. So its £1071 before any extra wait time.
> 
> Any direction on what kind of order I actually need?
> 
> I've even seen RC concrete for pours that have reinforcing mesh in.



I paid £95 per m +VAT for C25; that was near London so prices may be less elsewhere.
To save on concrete I dug thickened edges to the subsoil (up to ~400mm deep) and then just had a 100-150mm main slab with mesh in it. I suspect because of clay heave you might want to have a thicker main slab though.
If you order volumentric concrete they will only mix as much as you need which definitely saved me money as my estimate was far off!
Good luck with your build,
Dom


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## flying haggis

+1 as steve says for a water supply even just for an outside tap. as you will have a trench open anyway, bung in a bit of blue pipe.


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## MikeG.

The problem with that is if you have a tap you need a drain. It isn't as simple as a bit of 25mm alkathene.....it's that plus 110mm surface water drain laid to falls.


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## Steve Maskery

Mike, can that not just go to the same (presumed) soakaway that the roof runoff is going to go to?


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## DBT85

MikeG.":3hnlp8ea said:


> DBT85":3hnlp8ea said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......Out of interest. Is a rafter tie needed for every pair or is it every other or every third or something?......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The roof has to be looked at as a whole. The stiffness of the wall plate and the strength of the ridge beam come into the equation, as do the existence or otherwise of purlins. The point it, you can generally have widely spaced ties, or no ties at all, if that's what is designed in from the start. My suggestion is to say what you would ideally end up with and let's work backwards from there.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike.

I'd really like as much open space above me as possible while also obviously having some storage up there. Right now the plan has a 195x67mm beam in there, rafters every 600/610mm to match the walls and I've also put ties in on every rafter for the sake of it with the top of each being 1/3 of the vertical height from the top of the top place to the top of the ridge. From the inner edges of each top plate the span is 6639mm. Again, I'm literally making things up so everything can and likely will change as required.

The roof will be Onduline or a metal tile like Decra or Metrotile.

Can you offer any suggestion on what mix the concrete should be. Gen 3, C25 or 30, RC30 etc? Since I'd be putting mesh in shuld I be thinking about an RC mix or not bother for this installation?


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## DBT85

Steve Maskery":1hwss5ui said:


> My 2p having been down this road. In no particular order:
> 
> If I think of anything else I'll add it.



Thanks for the input Steve. Your own experience has taught many a potential builder some valuable lessons!

I'm praying all of my materials arrive in one standard or another. I've seen some builds where someone got 50 odd sheets of OSB delivered and half was metric and half was imperial from the same yard!



DomD":1hwss5ui said:


> I paid £95 per m +VAT for C25; that was near London so prices may be less elsewhere.
> To save on concrete I dug thickened edges to the subsoil (up to ~400mm deep) and then just had a 100-150mm main slab with mesh in it. I suspect because of clay heave you might want to have a thicker main slab though.
> If you order volumentric concrete they will only mix as much as you need which definitely saved me money as my estimate was far off!
> Good luck with your build,
> Dom


Dom, was ther any particular reason you ended up with C25 rather than an RC mix or C30 or something?

As you say, I'd likely end up with a slab almost entirely 200-250mm thick due to the clay and proximity to trees. 

Volumetric is something I've looked at, just not got any prices yet. 


flying haggis":1hwss5ui said:


> +1 as steve says for a water supply even just for an outside tap. as you will have a trench open anyway, bung in a bit of blue pipe.



As Mike says it's not quite as simple. For me to run the blue stuff (we have loads here kicking around) would be a lot more work as the supply is the exact opposite corner of the site. I'd have to lay a trench all the way around the house. I could run a cold supply in from the nearest bathroom with no real issue in some standard 15mm with a bit more ease.



Steve Maskery":1hwss5ui said:


> Mike, can that not just go to the same (presumed) soakaway that the roof runoff is going to go to?



Roof runoff is an issue I've not yet really solved yet. I've not seen much detail in anyones builds about what they have done and being on a lot of clay a soakaway is possibly less useful. I don't know at what point one needs a soakaway. We have a huge dutch barn here where all the water just runs off the roof and onto the floor!


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## MikeG.

DBT85":3b23442n said:


> ........I'd really like as much open space above me as possible while also obviously having some storage up there. Right now the plan has a 195x67mm beam in there, rafters every 600/610mm to match the walls and I've also put ties in on every rafter for the sake of it with the top of each being 1/3 of the vertical height from the top of the top place to the top of the ridge. From the inner edges of each top plate the span is 6639mm. Again, I'm literally making things up so everything can and likely will change as required



The span is 6.6m? Don't you mean the ridge length? The span is at 90 degrees from that. The distance between the walls that the rafters sit on.

You're getting confused as to the role of a ridge beam. It exists only as one way of preventing spreading (the pushing apart of the walls). It serves no other structural function. Therefore, if you have ties at every pair of rafters as you show in your drawing, then there is no need for a ridge beam. Indeed, there is no need for a ridge board at all. Modern trussed rooves don't have a ridgeboard, just a batten nailed under one side of the rafters to hold the trusses the right distance apart at the top.

If you want a vaulted section of roof (ie without any ties) so that you can access the storage areas either side (this is what I did in mine), then you can have a hybrid system. Have ties preventing spread for most of the roof, and if necessary, a structural ridge beam over the void. The loads from this beam are taken by the complete trusses either side of the vaulted section. If you want a vaulted area of say 1.8m (ie leave out 2 ties), your ridge will need to be supported by 2 trusses each side, and therefore be 3m ish long. An orthodox 195x45 is plenty enough for that.



> Can you offer any suggestion on what mix the concrete should be. Gen 3, C25 or 30, RC30 etc? Since I'd be putting mesh in shuld I be thinking about an RC mix or not bother for this installation?........



Personally I'd use a Gen 3, but you might ask Woody2Shoes, a structural engineer of this parish.


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## DBT85

MikeG.":2bs1kpw8 said:


> DBT85":2bs1kpw8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ........I'd really like as much open space above me as possible while also obviously having some storage up there. Right now the plan has a 195x67mm beam in there, rafters every 600/610mm to match the walls and I've also put ties in on every rafter for the sake of it with the top of each being 1/3 of the vertical height from the top of the top place to the top of the ridge. From the inner edges of each top plate the span is 6639mm. Again, I'm literally making things up so everything can and likely will change as required
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The span is 6.6m? Don't you mean the ridge length? The span is at 90 degrees from that. The distance between the walls that the rafters sit on.
> 
> You're getting confused as to the role of a ridge beam. It exists only as one way of preventing spreading (the pushing apart of the walls). It serves no other structural function. Therefore, if you have ties at every pair of rafters as you show in your drawing, then there is no need for a ridge beam. Indeed, there is no need for a ridge board at all. Modern trussed rooves don't have a ridgeboard, just a batten nailed under one side of the rafters to hold the trusses the right distance apart at the top.
> 
> If you want a vaulted section of roof (ie without any ties) so that you can access the storage areas either side (this is what I did in mine), then you can have a hybrid system. Have ties preventing spread for most of the roof, and if necessary, a structural ridge beam over the void. The loads from this beam are taken by the complete trusses either side of the vaulted section. If you want a vaulted area of say 1.8m (ie leave out 2 ties), your ridge will need to be supported by 2 trusses each side, and therefore be 3m ish long. An orthodox 195x45 is plenty enough for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you offer any suggestion on what mix the concrete should be. Gen 3, C25 or 30, RC30 etc? Since I'd be putting mesh in shuld I be thinking about an RC mix or not bother for this installation?........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Personally I'd use a Gen 3, but you might ask Woody2Shoes, a structural engineer of this parish.
Click to expand...

 Sorry yes, ridge length. To me a span is just any unsupported gap in any direction.

I know if there are ties this regularly I only need a board, ideally I don't want ties this regularly. I'd love a section with ties for storage and then a further section with none at all for the open feeling offered. I've only put them in like this for the sake of it in the drawing, knowing that some will come out and that the beam/board would change. I also know a beam of 195x67 isn't near beefy enough for a ridge this long on its own so some kind of support is needed be that in ties or purlins etc. Right now I'm more inclined to go with ties where needed rather than purlins.

My plan was to have a hybrid system just like you did in yours but not knowing the dimensions required I just put the drawing together with a view to consultation and revision.

Given your example, a 195x45 3m long, what would be used for the rest, a smaller dimensioned board each end (say a 125x25), or just maintain the width and use a 95x45. How would it join to the 195x45?

Looking at the sizes I would like to look at removing maybe 4 ties giving me 1.8m storage either end and a 3m vaulted area and in my understanding then needing a 4.2m beam. This is all depending on the sizes required obviously.


----------



## MikeG.

If you use a ridge board then it should be that the length of the cut face of the rafter (the plumb cut at the ridge) is pretty much all in contact with it. In other words, if the length of the plumb cut is about 167 long, for instance (as it would be in a 30 degree roof with 145 deep rafters), then a 145 deep ridge is probably pushing it a bit. The next size up is 195, and that would be fine. 95 deep is never enough. It's about being able to get a fixing low down on the heel of the rafter to resist twisting.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":m98ubkwf said:


> .....Looking at the sizes I would like to look at removing maybe 4 ties giving me 1.8m storage either end and a 3m vaulted area and in my understanding then needing a 4.2m beam. This is all depending on the sizes required obviously.



The problem with this arrangement is the practical difficulty of erecting the ridge. You will need a scarf, and it can't fall over the the vaulted area or the two rafter positions either side. That 4.2m must be continuous. So, you'll need either 5.4m + 1.2m, scarfed, or you'll need 1.2m + 4.2m + 1.2m, including 2 scarfs. It's certainly not going to be very easy to erect either of those two arrangements alone.


----------



## ScaredyCat

Can't contribute to the building parts but, 



DBT85":bx3fmgbw said:


> ethernet




Wont that require a trench? Why not opt for a Mikrotik wireless wire or Ubiquiti UBB both of which just require that you to point one end at the other and will provide you with a gigabit link?

You can plug an access point into either to provide localised wifi, if you need physical ports then a switch would do it nicely. 

.


----------



## DBT85

ScaredyCat":22s68bmw said:


> Can't contribute to the building parts but,
> 
> 
> 
> DBT85":22s68bmw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ethernet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wont that require a trench? Why not opt for a Mikrotik wireless wire or Ubiquiti UBB both of which just require that you to point one end at the other and will provide you with a gigabit link?
> 
> You can plug an access point into either to provide localised wifi, if you need physical ports then a switch would do it nicely.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

I have Ubiquiti stuff here for the wifi and would put one in the workshop once its built, but since I have to put a trench in of some kind to get power I might as well make it wide enough to put a separate Ethernet in at the same time and its a very easy connection to make. Wired is always best, that's why my house has 2 ports in every bedroom as well as the office and the living room, patch panel in the loft etc :lol:


----------



## cookiemonster

DBT85":2mufsfco said:


> ScaredyCat":2mufsfco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't contribute to the building parts but,
> 
> 
> 
> DBT85":2mufsfco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ethernet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wont that require a trench? Why not opt for a Mikrotik wireless wire or Ubiquiti UBB both of which just require that you to point one end at the other and will provide you with a gigabit link?
> 
> You can plug an access point into either to provide localised wifi, if you need physical ports then a switch would do it nicely.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have Ubiquiti stuff here for the wifi and would put one in the workshop once its built, but since I have to put a trench in of some kind to get power I might as well make it wide enough to put a separate Ethernet in at the same time and its a very easy connection to make. Wired is always best, that's why my house has 2 ports in every bedroom as well as the office and the living room, patch panel in the loft etc :lol:
Click to expand...


If you go for wired ethernet then make sure you lay at least one more cable than you need in case one gets damaged. The stuff is dirt cheap.

As to the windows discussion, I put double sliding patio doors in my workshop and they let more than enough light in. You can find them cheap second-hand.


----------



## MikeG.

Careful with that, though, as you have to balance the chances of a break-in against the increase in light. Sliding patio doors are renowned as an easy way in to any building.


----------



## Inspector

A tall narrow window lets in light without giving up much wall space letting you see out and can be barred or shuttered inside to keep the baddies out. Nothing you can do will keep determine ones out though.

Pete


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":1pp6jvxi said:


> DBT85":1pp6jvxi said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....Looking at the sizes I would like to look at removing maybe 4 ties giving me 1.8m storage either end and a 3m vaulted area and in my understanding then needing a 4.2m beam. This is all depending on the sizes required obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with this arrangement is the practical difficulty of erecting the ridge. You will need a scarf, and it can't fall over the the vaulted area or the two rafter positions either side. That 4.2m must be continuous. So, you'll need either 5.4m + 1.2m, scarfed, or you'll need 1.2m + 4.2m + 1.2m, including 2 scarfs. It's certainly not going to be very easy to erect either of those two arrangements alone.
Click to expand...


I'd not need to do anything like that alone so that's not a concern. Putting in 2 scarfs is more of a worry for someone who never done it before and doesn't want the roof to cave in on their heads but I'm sure I can manage.

Is the 195x45 you mentioned before for the 1.8m vault C16 or 24? 

Can you give me an idea of the size beam needed for a 2.4m or 3m vault section?

While I'm at it, is there any need for the ridge to extend beyond the walls to create the overhang or can you just nail bits on the end as is done for the rest of the overhang?

Davies Timber which is near ish me list a treated 7.2m c24 8x2 for £48 and £76 for a 8x3. Useful to at least have one place in my pocket that nice and clearly lists that they an get it and can just order it direct on their site.


----------



## DBT85

cookiemonster":2go88f08 said:


> If you go for wired ethernet then make sure you lay at least one more cable than you need in case one gets damaged. The stuff is dirt cheap.
> 
> As to the windows discussion, I put double sliding patio doors in my workshop and they let more than enough light in. You can find them cheap second-hand.



I always run 2 and in a case like there would be a draw cord in with both the ethernet and the electrical just in case. People who don't put cords in for later use are mad.


----------



## ScaredyCat

DBT85":2elw5srf said:


> I have Ubiquiti stuff here for the wifi and would put one in the workshop once its built



UBB is also managed by the unifi controller would make for a nice integrated solution.


.


----------



## flying haggis

flying haggis":1p529vy9 said:


> +1 as steve says for a water supply even just for an outside tap. as you will have a trench open anyway, bung in a bit of blue pipe.



As Mike says it's not quite as simple. For me to run the blue stuff (we have loads here kicking around) would be a lot more work as the supply is the exact opposite corner of the site. I'd have to lay a trench all the way around the house. I could run a cold supply in from the nearest bathroom with no real issue in some standard 15mm with a bit more ease. 

in that case run from the bathroom in 15mm and change to blue as you leave the building. re a drain requirement ask steve maskery what he did for drains for his sink. i just suggested an outside tap if even just for watering that end of the garden/ using a pressure washer etc


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis":1t7nlsq6 said:


> in that case run from the bathroom in 15mm and change to blue as you leave the building. re a drain requirement ask steve maskery what he did for drains for his sink. i just suggested an outside tap if even just for watering that end of the garden/ using a pressure washer etc


Can I ask why the change to the mdpe instead of just using polybutylene white stuff?

For my use case there would only be a use for a little water inside the workshop for washing my hands/cleaning things or drinking. The hose we have already covers the entire garden etc.

Yes it might be something that makes it in even if just for a belfast sink in one corner. But it will in part be decided by the drainage. Nobody we know in the area has a soakaway owing to the clay we are on. The remote houses like ours all feed into the drainage at the side of the road. We do actually have another large pipe added as a minor flood defence that could be tapped into but that's probably 40m away at the nearest.


----------



## Fidget

I have water running to my workshop with no drainage.

What I did was to get a very large (I think 40l) water container for camping which my sink (bought for £10 off Gumtree) runs into. Very easy to empty. I put a little bleach in after I empty it so it doesn't go nasty. I don't let it get too full or it is quite heavy.

To have water in the workshop is a boon, especially when you're in the middle of a glue up and need to keep rinsing your cloth out after wiping excess glue away.






Not rotated by me (hammer)


----------



## flying haggis

DBT85":iqia87ti said:


> flying haggis":iqia87ti said:
> 
> 
> 
> in that case run from the bathroom in 15mm and change to blue as you leave the building. re a drain requirement ask steve maskery what he did for drains for his sink. i just suggested an outside tap if even just for watering that end of the garden/ using a pressure washer etc
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask why the change to the mdpe instead of just using polybutylene white stuff?
> 
> For my use case there would only be a use for a little water inside the workshop for washing my hands/cleaning things or drinking. The hose we have already covers the entire garden etc.
> 
> Yes it might be something that makes it in even if just for a belfast sink in one corner. But it will in part be decided by the drainage. Nobody we know in the area has a soakaway owing to the clay we are on. The remote houses like ours all feed into the drainage at the side of the road. We do actually have another large pipe added as a minor flood defence that could be tapped into but that's probably 40m away at the nearest.
Click to expand...

the op mentioned running from the bathroom in copper (all the way??) but yes the white polybutylene would be ok and as with blue pipe is one continous length and would be easier as it is all push fit(wonderful stuff, used it for years)


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis":1696pu3c said:


> DBT85":1696pu3c said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flying haggis":1696pu3c said:
> 
> 
> 
> in that case run from the bathroom in 15mm and change to blue as you leave the building. re a drain requirement ask steve maskery what he did for drains for his sink. i just suggested an outside tap if even just for watering that end of the garden/ using a pressure washer etc
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask why the change to the mdpe instead of just using polybutylene white stuff?
> 
> For my use case there would only be a use for a little water inside the workshop for washing my hands/cleaning things or drinking. The hose we have already covers the entire garden etc.
> 
> Yes it might be something that makes it in even if just for a belfast sink in one corner. But it will in part be decided by the drainage. Nobody we know in the area has a soakaway owing to the clay we are on. The remote houses like ours all feed into the drainage at the side of the road. We do actually have another large pipe added as a minor flood defence that could be tapped into but that's probably 40m away at the nearest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the op mentioned running from the bathroom in copper (all the way??) but yes the white polybutylene would be ok and as with blue pipe is one continous length and would be easier as it is all push fit(wonderful stuff, used it for years)
Click to expand...


I am the op 

Wouldn't run it in copper. Poly all the way for that kind of job. It certainly has its uses.


----------



## DBT85

Mike,

Can you give me an idea of the vault a 2x8 c24 or a 3x8 c24 can give me? 

Is the 195x45 you mentioned before for the 1.8m vault C16 or 24? 


In other news my brother has asked me to draw him something for framing the inside of his brick garage for a home office so I'm getting to use Fusion 360 for something. I've even done it all "properly" so I can change one parameter like stud depth or wall length or something and the whole thing just adjusts accordingly. Very nice. I can take what I'm learning with that onto this project.

I am now Furloughed for at least April and May so I have time to kill!


----------



## DBT85

Well this morning I was pledged a further £3k toward the workshop so I pretty much have enough to get it done to the most basic of levels. Onduline roof, normal treated featheredge etc.

A pleasant surprise.

The plan is to shoot higher for a nicer roof and possibly nicer cladding as well bit I'm not as worried about that as I am the roof.

I guess I'd better finesse my plans!


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":1225co6t said:


> .........Can you give me an idea of the vault a 2x8 c24 or a 3x8 c24 can give me?
> 
> Is the 195x45 you mentioned before for the 1.8m vault C16 or 24? ........



Sorry for not coming back to you sooner. I looked at this briefly a few days ago and thought "too hard for now, I'll come back to it when I have time", and promptly forgot all about it.

To start with the easy one, C16 is fine for any of the structural timber in your roof, even if you have a 3m long vaulted section. Obviously try and select your own timber, and pick the best piece of wood you can for the ridge beam. Actually, that's always a good piece of advice, because a twisted or wavy ridge beam is difficult to work with, especially for the inexperienced, because it chucks out the geometry of your roof.

As to the other one, about length (I presume) of vaulted area for C24 timbers..... we're into structural engineering territory here. Remember what I said about reading the roof as a whole. Well, the length of possible vaulted roof depends on a variety of factors, not just the ridge beam. I am always conscious that someone might come along in 5 years time and read something I said about one context and apply it in another, where it doesn't work. So I'm not going to answer the question other than to reiterate what I said: decide what arrangement you want and we'll make it work. If you want the whole thing vaulted, it can be done, so just decide on your ideal design and don't let the timber drive your decisions.


----------



## DBT85

No problem at all Mike I completely understand.

I'll get my drawings sorted and we can take it from there.

I did find out where ei can buy the dwg files for the plans if I decide to go for planning so I may request a little assistance there at some point.

The sample I downloaded didn't immediately sit square in my head!

Can I ask if there was any reason you went for normal treated featheredge over more expensive options for your workshop? If I recall you got some of your bedec splashed all over it too?


----------



## MikeG.

Feather edged board is traditional for outbuildings in this neck of the woods. Wooden barns 700+ years old are clad with it, and it's been used continuously since. This is a timber frame area. It's also used a little on cottages. There was never any question of using anything else for my outbuildings. I've got 5 at the moment, all clad in FE boards.


----------



## DBT85

Fair enough. Wasn't sure if I wanted to spring for something "nicer" but I'm happy with the appearance. There's little up here for me to compare to as this farm and the others around it is all either brick buildings or steel barns. If you're happy with it to cover that many things in it then I'm fine with it. 

Maybe I could buy some of that lovely brick pattern wallpaper and adorn the outside? [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]


----------



## Inspector

When we were having out house built I had to put the shop on top of the garage to cut down on costs. Fortunately a walkout basement so no great height to get things in and out of the shop. I wanted 10'+ ceilings but that would have had the roof higher than the rest of the roof on that side of the house. We settled on using scissor trusses. They allowed for the walls to be 9' and the peak to be almost 13' inside. The outside being the same 4/12 pitch as the rest of the house. The gable end didn't need a scissor truss, it was framed normally. Above the walls there was about a foot of room for batt insulation and about 2'+ along the peak allowing for lots of airflow above the insulation to keep the asphalt shingles cool. Inside you still have the vaulted roof effect without needing collar ties spanning between walls, a distance of 24'. They were made by a truss company as is usually done here for roofs of 2x4's, but as your shop is half the size of mine they could easily be made by yourself on the ground and lifted into place by a couple three people. Plywood gussets replacing the steel plates pressed into the 2x4s by truss manufacturers. You would need a qualified person to design them. Another up side to them is they do not need a ridge beam. I like the volume it gives the room and there is lots of height for flipping boards end for end when working on projects. 

Something to consider and add to the confusion. :wink: 

Pete


----------



## DBT85

I'll have a think Pete thanks for that. I'll most likely stick to what I've seen so many others do and am already at least mildly familiar with though.

Since work csnt occur at the moment I'm taking the time to make a fully parametric and therefore variable workshop in Fusion 360. A remarkable application and a nice test of the brain. Will also be useful when getting my order list together. 

Anyone have opinions on doors or rather door positions? One side of a wall or in the middle? If on one side, right on the edge or inset say 300mm or 600mm? 

After talking with my father in law were fairly sure we can get the 10odd tons of hardcore (if needed) either lifted over the hedge by a chum with a large tractor or loaded up in the same dumper we'd use for the concrete.
That'll save my back a little as it's a clear 30m from the place bags will be dropped to where the base will be!


----------



## MikeG.

For a start, don't put a door in a corner. That wastes valuable wall space on the adjoining wall (ie you can't put shelves etc there). Unless your wall is really long, then you probably won't put it in the middle, either, because that leaves two short bits of wall either side, probably not big enough for any substantial use (such as a bench location. I would draw your internal layout and get that just as you want, and the door position becomes obvious from that. Also, don't put in a single door if you have large machinery or make larger pieces of furniture. 

Here's mine, just to give you an idea of how I set about the design. My doors are about 1450 wide in total.:


----------



## DBT85

Those were pretty much my thoughts Mike. Not right in the corner as you lose that wall on both sides.

I figured maybe 600-700 mm off of one corner and maybe 1500 mm wide. While I don't have any large kit yet, I'd like the doors wide enough for it later or for large stuff to go in and out a bit easier.


----------



## DBT85

Does anyone have strong thoughts on roof overhangs both for the sides/rear and over the door?

Am I also correct in my thinking that the overhangs at gable ends don't need the ridge to continue through to the end and they can just be spaced away from the building with noggins, or is there some other term for them?


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":36bh93nq said:


> Does anyone have strong thoughts on roof overhangs both for the sides/rear and over the door?



Yes. Take a look at the outbuildings in your area. Agricultural buildings in the main, such as cart sheds, milking parlours, store sheds, barns, and so on. You won't see any of those with a large over-hang at the gables. I really hate big overhangs there, at either end of the building. It's a fashion alien to Britain, more suited to the Alps or Alaska. As to the eaves, again, take your clues from the local vernacular. In the Peak District, for instance, there is virtually no eaves overhang. Fascia boards, if they exist at all, are planted on the face of the wall. In other places there are fairly substantial overhangs. We don't design or build in isolation, and understanding the local traditions are really important. Look, too, at eaves and fascia details on old buildings. You won't see boxed in rafter feet unless they've been added afterwards. Exposed rafter feet are so much more attractive.



> Am I also correct in my thinking that the overhangs at gable ends don't need the ridge to continue through to the end and they can just be spaced away from the building with noggins, or is there some other term for them?



Gable ladder is the correct term. As above, you don't need one. Don't have an overhang......saves loads of work and looks so much better.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":2jdjwqwj said:


> Look, too, at eaves and fascia details on old buildings. You won't see boxed in rafter feet unless they've been added afterwards. Exposed rafter feet are so much more attractive.


Mike, when you say exposed rafter feet, does that mean no soffit?

I was thinking of just plumb cutting the ends, fix fascia board and guttering and that’s all. No soffit or boarding.

If so, would you just put in insect mesh in eaves gap and keep insulation away from the gap to provide air flow across loft area and ventilate front to back?

Phil


----------



## DBT85

Thanks for the input once again Mike.

I'll probably do it to match to the house with open feet and only a couple of inches at the eaves.


----------



## Woody2Shoes

MikeG.":2o825h6m said:


> DBT85":2o825h6m said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have strong thoughts on roof overhangs both for the sides/rear and over the door?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Take a look at the outbuildings in your area. Agricultural buildings in the main, such as cart sheds, milking parlours, store sheds, barns, and so on. You won't see any of those with a large over-hang at the gables. I really hate big overhangs there, at either end of the building. It's a fashion alien to Britain, more suited to the Alps or Alaska. As to the eaves, again, take your clues from the local vernacular. In the Peak District, for instance, there is virtually no eaves overhang. Fascia boards, if they exist at all, are planted on the face of the wall. In other places there are fairly substantial overhangs. We don't design or build in isolation, and understanding the local traditions are really important. Look, too, at eaves and fascia details on old buildings. You won't see boxed in rafter feet unless they've been added afterwards. Exposed rafter feet are so much more attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I also correct in my thinking that the overhangs at gable ends don't need the ridge to continue through to the end and they can just be spaced away from the building with noggins, or is there some other term for them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gable ladder is the correct term. As above, you don't need one. Don't have an overhang......saves loads of work and looks so much better.
Click to expand...


Interesting thoughts on overhangs. I think that - here in Sussex anyway - most agricultural buildings would have been thatched, before the industrial revolution, implying bigger overhangs at the eaves and gables (usually half-hipped I think).

Here's an example from somewhere in the home counties I think -




And the more famous:


----------



## DBT85

Mike,

This is what I'm looking at right now, 145x45 rafters, 95x45 ties, centres all matching studwork beneath the top plate. In this drawing it's a 220x65 beam to support that 3m vaulted section.

Apart from adding in the collar ties, what's wrong with what I have? What's missing? Why will it kill me when a sparrow lands atop the ridge?

Lets assume I can get a length of ridge that means I don't need to scarf it.

Reality is that I don't need the vault section for the sake of ceiling height, as with a 25 degree pitch I can have a floor to ceiling of around 2.5m and still have 500mm above the ridge if I wanted to go higher. But it would be nice. So hit me.


----------



## MikeG.

I'll look at that more closely in the morning, but superficially it looks OK. My only comment is that if you want to use the ties as storage, which is presumably the whole point, then they'll need to be 6x2s at least.

If I forget to come back to this, please jog me a along with a reminder.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike, I appreciate it. 

Do the collars need to be anything special or just some more 2x4?


----------



## MikeG.

You don't need any collars. Swap the ties to ex 6x2 and keep them in the lower third of the rafter length (bolted with M18), make sure the ridge is in one piece (at least for 2 rafters past the vaulted section) and everything looks fine to me. This is where I enter the usual caveat....I'm an architect, not an engineer. However, your workshop is planned to have roughly the same span as mine, and is built to roughly the same design (albeit my roof angle is 35 degrees).

Getting that ridge beam in place is your biggest challenge, in my view. You need to think this aspect through very carefully. Tip: don't cut it to length until after it is secured in position. Any extra length you can get will help.

edit.... The end pairs of rafters don't need a tie if you build them into the gable. It might suit your purposes to have a tie (I'm thinking of the storage above), but you don't need one.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike, and the ridge size mentioned "should" be acceptable for the 3m span?

I'm surprised but happy to hear I don't need collars.

That's one m18 bolt per end, screws too or don't bother?

I'll have assistance with any jobs that need it so I'm not too worried about that. My bigger worry is getting the small details correct after the framing.

Today I'll talk with father in law about helping clear the site and hire of machinery. We have an account with the local hire firm for the farm so that will hopefully cover those costs.

I'll bang a tie in either end as you mentioned more for the storage. The gable studs above the top plate are only going to be there to secure cladding to so I don't need anything more complicated than regular stud timber with a angle cut on one end?


----------



## MikeG.

As I said, those timber sizes are OK (_caveats entered here_). You don't need anything other than the bolt for the joists, but sometimes it is easier to get a nail or screw in there first to keep everything aligned before drilling your hole, and there is no harm leaving it there. BTW, cutting threaded rod to length is way cheaper than buying individual bolts. Wind a nut on first before you cut the rod because winding it off again helps clean up the thread at the cut.

Have you got access to a telehandler?


----------



## DBT85

OK great, thanks. I'll get rod, I've cut enough of it so I know the trick with the nut.

I don't have direct access but we know people with just about every type of machine for farms you can imagine. At a cost of course!

Is this for lifting the ridge?

The off-the-top-of-my-head plan is to use the formwork timber to make something to hold the ridge up anyway until such time as the first 4 rafters are in. 

That can have holes in it every couple of feet to take a rod. I would lift one end up high enough to get a rod in under it, and then do the other end. Then lift the first end up to the next hole. Etc. At one time I'd only be lifting half the weight and only say 500mm at a time. With assistance.


----------



## DBT85

Off the top of my head I'm going to need to hire:

A digger
A dumper
A nail gun (I could screw it all, but probably cheaper and faster to hire the gun)
A bull float

What have I forgotten?


----------



## MikeG.

If you haven't floated before, then a bull float can be a bit tricky. If you have, you'll know what you're up against. If you've got a compressor it might be cheaper just to buy a nail gun. They were about £85/ £90 last time I looked.


----------



## DBT85

I don't have one Mike. Well, I do but it's 120 miles away. Our hire place is good and it's not me footing that particular bill so I'm happy to hire one!

Had a long chat with father in law today about everything and how we're going to do it. He's got a man who knows his way around a digger who might well come in and dig the hole for the slab.

If he can't do it in the near future though I'll wing it.

Never floated before. Would use a long timber to screed it first and the bull later. The concrete is the bit I'm most worried about as it's not exactly one you can easily fix!


----------



## DBT85

Work began yesterday with clearing the shed out and then the shed itself. The hole in the hedge to the rear of the garden has been widened to about 8ft to allow access for the digger and trailer to remove the spoil. The digger is not your usual tiddler driven through a doorway sized gap.

That extra gap will also give us access with the bale poker to bring in the bags of hardcore and sand as needed, assuming I csnt persuade the HIAB driver to drive in the field and just lift them in where I want them (I'm sure he won't). 

I've also been cutting down a load of other hedge that has not been needed since the guy who owns the adjacent field has left it to go wild for the past 30 years. Exhausted right now!

Tonight and tomorrow I'll carry on and I want to be at a point where I have what I need sorted so that I can make some calls and also have my shopping list sorted for sundries like dpc,dpm, m18 rod, etc etc.

This week the electrician will come and tell me what I need. My original plan was to run the conduit into the slab so that it comes up inside, I'm wondering if that's either wise or even necessary.

It's going on conduit just because we have it and I've got to dig a trench anyway. It also always give us the opportunity to run other things at a later date of ever they were needed.

Given that I am proceeding without planning (not within 2m, not over 4m not more than x% etc) I'm wondering if I should email them anyway and just check that the standard planning rules apply where I am.

Pic of the site to come.


----------



## MikeG.

Excellent. I'm looking forward to this one. Good luck!


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike. Any thoughts on these two?

There will be plenty more questions don't you worry!



DBT85":1vza5qdm said:


> This week the electrician will come and tell me what I need. My original plan was to run the conduit into the slab so that it comes up inside, I'm wondering if that's either wise or even necessary.
> 
> Given that I am proceeding without planning (not within 2m, not over 4m not more than x% etc) I'm wondering if I should email them anyway and just double check that the standard planning rules apply where I am.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":9k7aqs9n said:


> Excellent. I'm looking forward to this one. Good luck!


So am I.


----------



## DBT85

Mike, I've seen an image of your corner batten detail somewhere and for the life of me can't remember where. Scrub that, just found it!

Still got the link somewhere?

I wonder if you'll like my parametric workshop, my first project after watching 3 youtube videos on Fusion


----------



## DBT85

I'm assuming I can just go with 1 by for the facia and barge boards?

After watching the install on metro tile metal tiles last night they look easy enough, till you have to bend an entire 1.3m sheet to finish at the top. They do hire out their benders so I've sent an inquiry.

Maybe nice cedar shingles instead.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":jcs964e2 said:


> ........This week the electrician will come and tell me what I need. My original plan was to run the conduit into the slab so that it comes up inside, I'm wondering if that's either wise or even necessary.



The usual thing is to just bury the cable (with sand and a warning tape over), and to cast a conduit into/ through the slab for, say, a metre either side of the concrete. Shall I try that again, in English this time? Position a piece of conduit under/ through the formwork so that you can feed the cable through into the desired location. Make sure it is long enough each side such that I can remain completely clear of concrete spillages etc. I can't see any great benefit to putting the cable in the ground in conduit, but talk to your electrician.



> Given that I am proceeding without planning (not within 2m, not over 4m not more than x% etc) I'm wondering if I should email them anyway and just check that the standard planning rules apply where I am.



I wouldn't bother. I can't see what there is to gain, unless you are unsure of your status regarding National Parks, AONBs or World Heritage Sites etc.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike.

It was really going into conduit because we have some that we can disappear and because I can always use it to pull something else thought if I ever needed to. I wouldn't buy some for the job.

And barge and fascia boards can just be 1x4 or whatever is needed, right?

And is there magical blinding sand to go under the dpm?


----------



## MikeG.

Fascia boards and barge boards, if you have any, are always done in 1" stuff.

Blinding is only necessary if there is anything underneath the plastic that is sharp enough to push a hole in it when several tons of concrete is dumped on the top. Roots, small flints, hardcore etc are the usual culprits. If you have a perfect bed below the DPM then you don't need blinding. If you don't, then blinding needs only be the minimum to protect the plastic. If in doubt, stick it in there.


----------



## DBT85

Ok Mike cheers. I'm still assuming I'll need the sub base so blinding will have to go on top. I just don't know if there is a specific sand to use or more importantly not to use.

Hopefully tomorrow I can do some exploratory holes to see the state of the earth at slab depth. As I've said to you before, locality to other trees and hedges would suggest I'm unlikely to have just clay and nothing else under there.

So this is where we're at. Site cleared as much as it can be until my father in law walks up with the chainsaw to go at the trees. There are 2 slabs left from the old shed, they currently have inhabitants living under them. I'll move them as late as possible.

Before (some months ago)






Today


----------



## MikeG.

I don't think there is any good reason to choose one sand over another, but sharp sand might be best because it doesn't puddle up like washed/ soft washed/ plasterer's sand if it gets wet.....and it normally rains once you've got everything prepared for concrete. :lol:


----------



## DBT85

Fair enough. I did a bit more rummaging the internets and it seems sharp sand is the norm.

From the online calculators I only need about 0.15m2 of mortar for all the laying, so I just need my ratios to work out what I want. Either way its a long way short of enough to need a bulk bag of the sand!

This is the look of it right now in Fusion. Still no windows in the long side you can see, that would be only place I would put them if at all.

Still missing barge, fascia and all the cladding and the plate below the sole plate for getting level on the bricks. Also the filler pieces between the top of the studs. The studs above the top plate in the gable ends have not been done yet.

This just helps me get a list of everything I need together and I can toy with this when I can't do much else. 

The design is 95% parametric. You can define roof pitch, max allowed height, total long side bricks, total short side bricks, how many bricks either side of the door, sheet good sizes, stud sizes, rafter sizes, ridge sizes, tie sizes, overhangs. Just punch in your values and it recalculates everything. All the studs, rafters, ties, bricks, blocks, noggins, OSB, etc. It's been fun and a challenge to work out some of the maths to make it work.


----------



## DBT85

Mike, at the moment this is looking like a 200mm slab and before you have mentioned a142 in the top and bottom 50mm. Best way to support that middle 100mm between the sheets?

I've still not dug any exploratory holes but the idea of laying a slab on little more than a little sand and straight clay just sounds all wrong :shock: 

Just getting my timber list ready for all the timber and OSB bar the cladding. Looking like £1800 from Davies timber on their website. Cheeky pippers want £30 delivery on a order that big! Am asking a few others too but it's nice to have a baseline.


Metrotile want about £150 to hire the tile bender and deliver it and collect it for a month. A little more than I need. 

I've just been looking at Cembrit fibre cement slates and feel my mind must be going wrong. Their brochure says that the 600x300 tiles avg about 13.33 tiles per m2 on a 25 degree pitch (because of overlaps, got it), but they are only around £1.15 per tile, meaning my 36.5m2 roof is under 500 tiles (ignoring ordering alittle extra). That's easily half the price of the Metrotile or Decra.

The metal tiles come in at about 6kg/m2 but the cembrit come in at around 20kg/m2. Will the roof take the extra weight?


----------



## MikeG.

Ok, that helps with visualising what is what. A couple of things.......can you give me the over-all dimensions. More importantly, the ridge beam is structural, but there is nothing supporting it. Its loads need to be brought down to the ground, which means, this near end at least, that either there is a post in under it which is standing on something which goes directly to the top of the slab, or, if you make the entire gable load bearing (which is effectively what happens anyway), then you have a load over the door opening and thus the needs for a proper timber lintel supported on cripple studs (you should have doubled-up studs at the door opening in any circumstance). Incidentally, if that messes with your door height the lintel can go above the plate.

As an incidental aside, noggins can be staggered, and this helps a lot with nailing them in place.Ping a line across the studs, and then alternate the noggins above or below that line.

ETA:

Extra weight on the roof...? Well....usual caveat etc.......yes. I always assume a tiled roof when looking at structure. Also, your roof is much the same structure as mine, which is natural slate, and natural slate is over 40kg/sq m.


----------



## DBT85

Overall is 7.2 x 4.7m. Internal area will be 29.89m2

I thought that a normal ridge beam would have no ties but the weight supported at either end, and a ridge board would have ties all the way down. Therefore in this design as its a beam but with ties this would suffice. I take that a little from following your build in which I didn't see anything other than the beam, rafters and then raised ties as I have here. Apologies if I assumed anything incorrectly.





What girth are we talking about for the lintel and then support upto the ridge? 

The noggins are a little staggered in that image, but not much so its not easy to tell. 

Thanks for the tile info. Certainly another option.

Heres the door end, could you show me what I need? I know the studwork in the gable is missing. Wasn't forgotten! Cripples were also on the list.


----------



## MikeG.

A pair of 6x2s nailed together should be fine for the lintel, assuming the opening is of the order of 1500 or so. If you have that and studs up to the underside of the gable rafters (from the plate) then you're fine. That photo you show of mine is before any of that is in place, but later on in the build you'll see studs filling in the gable.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":3l3kq8tc said:


> A pair of 6x2s nailed together should be fine for the lintel, assuming the opening is of the order of 1500 or so. If you have that and studs up to the underside of the gable rafters (from the plate) then you're fine. That photo you show of mine is before any of that is in place, but later on in the build you'll see studs filling in the gable.


I saw studs filling the gable but not the expected large post right up under the ridge.

Door is around 1500 yes, I'll draw something up.

So 4x6 over the door onto the cripples and then normal studs all the way upto the rafters from the top plate /lintel.

Does one specifically have to go directly under the ridge?


----------



## MikeG.

No, it doesn't, but you might find it useful to have one there as mirroring the triangular boards at the gable works quite well.


----------



## DBT85

Groundworks have begun! Sort of.






It's thick solid clay at the bottom but I've still roots coming up. That's 225mm down. 

Upset has been caused today by informing mother in law that the 2 birches are coming down. The larger of the two will only be 300mm from the wall of the shop and the smaller is maybe 1.5m away.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":3n13j235 said:


> .....Internal area will be 29.89m2........



 Excellent.

A friendly building inspector checking work on my house looked over at the workshop and said something like "Don't tell me, let me guess....that's 29.5 sq m internally". "Don't be daft, Owen, you know me better than that. It's 29.95 sq m internally" :lol: ........

-

Your concrete, in perfect ground, would need only be 150 thick. If you go up to 200 or 225 thick, with mesh top and bottom, you'll be fine never minding the less than perfect ground......providing you are down to the same strata (ie clay) everywhere. Is your site flat?

For spacing the rebar, little plastic thingies, sometimes called chairs, I think, provide the support. You can get multi-level ones where there is more than one layer of mesh/ bars. They fill up with concrete and have no effect on the strength of the slab. Ask you builders merchant.

If you need to dig 225, and the concrete you want to pour is 225 thick, then 50mm of hardcore would be the cheapest way of getting the slab up 50mm above ground level, which is where you want it. Either that, or lower the ground level in the vicinity by 50mm.


----------



## DBT85

It's not perfectly flat but I don't think its too far off, that hole was dug less than a metre from a plum tree and maybe 1.5m from a privet. I'll do more holes tomorrow and hope the kid doesn't drop down one :lol: . Actually been waiting for it to get dark to use my little laser to get levels in all four corners.

Current plan and expectation is 100mm type1, 30mm sand, 200mm concrete. Given that I have 1x Pershore Plum and 2x birch (all 3 coming down), privet in the immediate vicinity as well as a bloody great Ash maybe 7m away, I don't mind putting in more type 1. Also, I'm not 100% sure so I'd rather have too much.

I've updated this to have the header and gable studs. My questions are thus. Usually the header would sit on the jack stud and not on the king stud. In this layout does it matter? Can both just go to the underside of the header with the top plate on top? I basically couldn't be pineappled changing it right now in the drawing as it would pipper other things up that I'm too tired to fix.

The gap betwixt the 2 gable studs is also 100mm wider than the usual 610mm on centre spacing. I'll probably put one in there anyway as you say just to make life easier for the boarding. I also now realise that removing the tie on the first and last rafters is needed in order to get the stud from the plate to the rafter without cutting a chuffing great notch in it.






Got a quote from accumix volumetric today, £950 for 7m3 gen3 or a whopping £966 for C25. For the sake of £16 I might just go with the C25.


----------



## MikeG.

Header? HEADER!!

Carruthers. Prepare the flogging tree. And fetch the biggest whip.


----------



## DBT85

I swear I didn;t do it on purpose. Bloody youtube.

I even called the component "Lintel" in Fusion!

Another question to go on top of those above.

Were your featheredge 175mm or 200mm? Davies timber do 175x28x8 in 4.8m lengths at a reasonable price (from what I can tell), and at that length I'd only have one join in the middle of each long side (which I'd stagger before you ask!) I feel on a larger building having smaller 150mm cladding would look odd.


----------



## MikeG.

Yes, I always specify (and use) 175mm feather-edge. The narrower stuff is also thinner, and splits too easily.

Your stud terminology is also American. We have studs (full length, plate-to-plate), and cripple studs (shorter, supporting lintels). You should use them that way, too, with a cripple and a full stud each side of each opening. The problem with having 2 cripple studs under the lintel with no full length one is that there is a rotational force on the door jamb when the door is open, so you could have some flexing there. It's all much more solid done the normal way.

Leaving the gable truss tie out is sensible, as you say, and you can always just plant it back on the inside of the wall to support your loft storage arrangements.

Your stud arrangement in the end wall might be something you play with a bit. You don't have to have them, say, 600 apart and then one only 100 apart. You can just split the gap and space them evenly, if it suits.

You're showing your long side wall as one panel. You won't be able to lift that, so you'll need to divide it at least into 2, and that means an extra stud at each join. You also wouldn't be able to build it on your slab, because the plinth walls will be in the way.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike,

I had already worked out about the long wall, fear not. It was only drawn up like for the sake of parametric fun. I shall do it in 2 sections accounting for the osb size once I know what it is to make life easy.

I got outside at 11pm in the rain last night (because I was on here drawing things!) and got laser levels on all 4 corners from a fixed central point. The lowest mark was 35mm above the ground while the highest was 160. So a 125mm height difference over 5m. The other end was around 90-130mm above ground level so a fall of about 55mm over 7m and 95mm over the diagonal 8.7m. The area tilts ever so slightly toward where I take my pictures from.

I'm wondering about the roof ventilation and the verge detail you mentioned in SheptonPhils thread.

In this design the rafters meet the top of the ridge so air can't get from one side to the other. Is that not an issue? Or is it not an issue for natural slate because of the air gaps?  I think Cembrit say their fibre cement tiles have less gap as they are more uniform, so maybe it something I need to think about. I know Steve used some black stench pipe to make his own ridge profile as the ridge tiles are not nearly as cost effective as the flat ones! 

With regard to the verge detail, I assume that only works in your case because you have a line of slates under the membrane on the verge upto which you can clad? You originally mentioned using a 3:1 mortar between that set of slate and the slate that would sit atop the batten, but it looks like you ended up just using a barge board up against that and then the main slates going and overhanging it?

Is all breather membrane pretty much the same? The same can be used on the roof and the walls? 

Looking at my spreadsheet, we're already looking at just over £5k just to get the building up and clad and that's just materials. The groundworks and any hire costs are not borne by myself so I don't have to worry about those at least.


----------



## MikeG.

Don't worry about ventilation above the breather membrane. There's enough of it through any non-sheet -type roofing material.

Verge detail in mortar with slate was a mistake I originally made, but corrected. It doesn't work properly as there isn't enough grip for the mortar. Just overhang your slates and bring either your boards hard up to the underside, or put a barge board on. I planted a 2x2 on the outside of the gable frame and brought my battens and FE boards up to that, then planted a 4x1 barge board over that. This helped support the slate overhang nicely.

The fall in the ground levels isn't enough to make any great difference to your slab. You shouldn't have too much trouble getting down to clay all round. Just make sure that the concrete finishes 50mm above ground at the highest point, and the rest will take care of itself.


----------



## RobinBHM

DB85 wrote:


> we're already looking at just over £5k just to get the building up and clad and that's just materials



It soon adds up -but lets be honest £5k for a 30sqM* building to that spec is pretty amazing. 

there is something immensely satisfying in building a timber frame outbuilding from scratch -I built a shed and combined cabin (which is where Im typing from now), and its made a huge difference to the house and garden.


*technically 29.99995M2


----------



## DBT85

what about below the membrane but above the insulation , Mike? 

I've just dug more inspection holes and apart from a good inch thick root (guessing from the Ash tree) the ground is very firm clay. It's not wholly pure as there are tiny fragments of brick, but this house is about 200 years old and half a mile across the field behind us was a brick pit that this house and others were made from. So it's likely the garden area was a storage area long ago. 

There were other small roots but from trees that will soon be departed.

I'll be sure to make sure the hole dug puts my slab top 50mm above ground. I don't mind removing some topsoil in the high points if needed after the fact. It would be in the 2m section around the side and back, not on the side you'd see regularly.

 Regarding the slab, is the order of operations hole, shuttering, hardcore, sand, cement. Or hole, hardcore, sand, shuttering, cement? 

Honestly I'll be glad when the concrete is done, it's the only bit I'm remotely worried about and it's a good £2k of the budget considering the concrete, the mesh, the hardcore and sand.

Father in law (farmer) will drive the dumper while wife and I and maybe a mate rake, poke and tamp.


----------



## DBT85

RobinBHM":23guan53 said:


> DB85 wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> we're already looking at just over £5k just to get the building up and clad and that's just materials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It soon adds up -but lets be honest £5k for a 30sqM* building to that spec is pretty amazing.
> 
> there is something immensely satisfying in building a timber frame outbuilding from scratch -I built a shed and combined cabin (which is where Im typing from now), and its made a huge difference to the house and garden.
> 
> 
> *technically 29.99995M2
Click to expand...

Oh it absolutely is. We're going to get 2 rooms back of the house that currently house all my tools and DIY sundries as well as having more room to work.

But that £5k doesn't include the ground work, hire costs, all the pir insulation which I shall be supplied with gratis, nor the electrics, lights, paint etc.

One of the things I tried to find out from other builds was the costs involved but it's quite difficult to get that info.


----------



## mindthatwhatouch

Hi,
Good luck with the slab, must be nice to get going with the construction after the planning. 

Re roof tiles. 
I used Decra (see My build
Unsure about metro tile but all bending was done by hand. Hidden under the ridge so although it doesn’t look pretty perfectly serviceable and watertight. You could even match the length of the roof to a whole tile if you wanted. Easy to fit (though cutting and folding Bottom verges was a little fiddly) and lightweight.
Just don’t understand why this sort of product isn’t more widely used. Lost count of the number of people that have made good comments on appearance and that they thought it’s traditional tiling.
Watching with interest.


----------



## DBT85

My only unusual test hole. A very thick (a good 3cm) dead worm. I know it's a worm because it absolutely is not a root from the Ash tree 6m away.





My father in law can't understand why I need 200mm of concrete with mesh top and bottom as he's been driving all over 4" slabs for 50 years on the same ground with giant tractors and trailers.



mindthatwhatouch":1pbzrz1e said:


> Hi,
> Good luck with the slab, must be nice to get going with the construction after the planning.
> 
> Re roof tiles.
> I used Decra (see My build
> Unsure about metro tile but all bending was done by hand. Hidden under the ridge so although it doesn’t look pretty perfectly serviceable and watertight. You could even match the length of the roof to a whole tile if you wanted. Easy to fit (though cutting and folding Bottom verges was a little fiddly) and lightweight.
> Just don’t understand why this sort of product isn’t more widely used. Lost count of the number of people that have made good comments on appearance and that they thought it’s traditional tiling.
> Watching with interest.



Thanks, it really will be. I've been hovering around workshop build threads for about 4 years :shock: Once the slab is done I'll be happy. Nothing else scares me about it all.

Regarding the roof. I've ummd and ahhd from Onduline to Decra to Metrotile to shingles to fibre cement tiles. The simple fact is that the fibre cement tiles will work out about half the price of the Metrotile or Decra and still look better than Onduline and things.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":3euch5kq said:


> .........My father in law can't understand why I need 200mm of concrete with mesh top and bottom as he's been driving all over 4" slabs for 50 years on the same ground with giant tractors and trailers.............



Where the odd crack didn't matter, nor the odd plant pushing through the cracks. Nor whether or not the concrete stayed level.


----------



## DBT85

Thought on these bits chaps?

 what about airflow below the membrane but above the insulation , Mike? It doesn;t matter that there is no link between either side of the ridge?

 Regarding the slab, is the order of operations hole, shuttering, hardcore, sand, concrete. Or hole, hardcore, sand, shuttering, concrete? 



MikeG.":h8z1pi2b said:


> Where the odd crack didn't matter, nor the odd plant pushing through the cracks. Nor whether or not the concrete stayed level.


I know I know. 

My hole digger has been in touch, he can do next week :shock: so I might finally actually start.

SE Davis, an aggregate company we've used before, quoted £44 inc vat and delivery for bags of type1 and sharp sand, delivery in 10 days or so. About £6 better than I saw in most places. It all adds up!

Tried calling Davis Timber to see if a) they'll waive the £30 delivery charge on a £2400 order and b) if it can be a less than £2400 order given the quantity I'm ordering. Unable to get through to anyone.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":mwp8n0rc said:


> Thought on these bits chaps?
> 
> what about airflow below the membrane but above the insulation , Mike? It doesn;t matter that there is no link between either side of the ridge?



No, that's more about the correct drape of the membrane than airflow.



> Regarding the slab, is the order of operations hole, shuttering, hardcore, sand, concrete. Or hole, hardcore, sand, shuttering, concrete?



It doesn't matter. If your shuttering isn't the same depth as your concrete, then you need to work around that, as whatever happens, the concrete comes to the top of the shuttering. So if you have, say, 225 boards and you want 200 of concrete, you'll need to get your boards in the ground prior to hardcore.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1mcvlpde said:


> My hole digger has been in touch, he can do next week :shock: so I might finally actually start.
> .


Now it gets real.  

Once the hole is dug, things really start to get exciting, no turning back once the first hit of cash has been made. I’m already looking at a £2000 overspend against budget due to the materials planning insisted on, especially the Hardie cladding which has come in at £2100 instead of £900 for timber. :shock: 

Looking forward to following your adventure with this.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":1b5u5owo said:


> DBT85":1b5u5owo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My hole digger has been in touch, he can do next week :shock: so I might finally actually start.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Now it gets real.
> 
> Once the hole is dug, things really start to get exciting, no turning back once the first hit of cash has been made. I’m already looking at a £2000 overspend against budget due to the materials planning insisted on, especially the Hardie cladding which has come in at £2100 instead of £900 for timber. :shock:
> 
> Looking forward to following your adventure with this.
Click to expand...


Oh yeah Its been in my head for years to do it and with all this time off I have the opportunity to knock it out and get it done rather than it taking months.

I've always expected mine would run beyond the £5k I wanted to have to get it started. As I said earlier, I don't even have to pay for a lot of the stuff others will, so it could be much more. 

I even have a little camera to hopefully record a time lapse of it all happening. We shall see how that goes.

Still can't make my mind up about windows in the long side.


----------



## DBT85

Since I'm going to need a lot of 200mm for my formwork, someone tell me I can cut those down and use them elsewhere in the build if I just treat the cuts? I mean one 6m 200x50 will make 6 studs! I think I could get at least 20 studs out of my formwork, or 6 rafters. Alternatively I could have even more OTT rafters and just use 200mm rather than the 145 specced.

I'd rather that then try to rip 50mm off of a 6m long board and use them as rafters or ties, though that's doable with the circ saw i suppose. Not even going to think about doing it on an evolution table saw!

Davies Timber are going to go through my list and give me a price which is good as the price for it all at the moment on their site is £2555. Thats all the framing, OSB and featheredge, with extra ordered of everything in case of bent, split, or woops. I can always use the extra.


----------



## MikeG.

Yes you can, but if you use them as ties you may as well use the full width and not worry about any load you put up there. Because of the plastic there should be virtually no concrete on the boards.

You might find that scaffold boards make the cheapest formwork..........or you might not.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":pg3670fd said:


> Yes you can, but if you use them as ties you may as well use the full width and not worry about any load you put up there. Because of the plastic there should be virtually no concrete on the boards.
> 
> You might find that scaffold boards make the cheapest formwork..........or you might not.


I'll have a look. At least if I use the stuff I've looked at it can be used elsewhere on the build.

I need to add to my basket some preserver or whatever to dip my ends in.


----------



## DBT85

While looking at DPMs and trying to decide whether to get a 4m roll and join it or just get a 6m roll and have no joins it turns out that the price difference is little. I suppose one benefit of joining is that I'll have to buy tape anyway, so if it has a hole I can patch it. If I buy one large one and it has holes I'll still have to buy the tape even after paying a bit extra for the wider dpm :shock: 

A friend is hopefully avaialble to help me with the concrete pour when we get there. He even has his own rake. Between him, me and the wife we only need to keep up with a 1ton dumper that's got a probably 60m round trip, and I doubt it'll be full. So I think that give us enough time to rake, poke, tamp as needed. I say this with all the experience of someone who's never done it before.

Will also build a smaller formwork for some future storage for things like pressure washers and rubbish. May also use some while they are here to build up around the pit we found in the front garden to then make a well from it. At least then you can see where the damned thing is.

Gradually putting together my shopping lists

Hopefully will get 2 quotes from timberyards/building suppliers tomorrow so might actually order some stuff :shock:

Then the game really begins....what did I forget.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":8fsx731s said:


> Then the game really begins....what did I forget.


I was quite surprised the quantity of joining/fixing/bracing hardware, be it Tec screws, nails, angle brackets, coach bolts, etc. I have gone in to my fourth box of 1100 paslode nails, 90mm for frame work, 50mm for OSB and 63mm for roofing battens and cladding counter battens. I know I’ve over engineered, it it certainly gets through the hardware.


----------



## DBT85

Added my roof. Most of it.









Sheptonphil":171o6q8w said:


> DBT85":171o6q8w said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then the game really begins....what did I forget.
> 
> 
> 
> I was quite surprised the quantity of joining/fixing/bracing hardware, be it Tec screws, nails, angle brackets, coach bolts, etc. I have gone in to my fourth box of 1100 paslode nails, 90mm for frame work, 50mm for OSB and 63mm for roofing battens and cladding counter battens. I know I’ve over engineered, it it certainly gets through the hardware.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's where they get you! Fortunately that'll all come from the hire shop and I'm not paying for that bit  

Can someone confirm the a142 overlap for me, I've seen anything from 150mm to 350mm online? Decided on meshmen for the bottom and circle spacers for the middle section. Now I need wire and a method of fixing. £20 for a hook on a stick for the little double loop ties!


----------



## MikeG.

Middle section? Your mesh should be top and bottom, not in the middle. Overlap......I aim for a whole square or more, but essentially you space the stuff out to cover your base without cutting, and you'll end up with bigger overlaps than you need.

Are you really sure you aren't going to have a window? I'd have one over the bench if I were you.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":2nqn18tb said:


> Middle section? Your mesh should be top and bottom, not in the middle. Overlap......I aim for a whole square or more, but essentially you space the stuff out to cover your base without cutting, and you'll end up with bigger overlaps than you need.
> 
> Are you really sure you aren't going to have a window? I'd have one over the bench if I were you.


Middle section as in the 90 odd mm between the bottom sheet and the top one. Sorted what I'll use now anyway.

It's likly I'll end up with the merchant sized 3.6*2m so I'll probably have to do some cutting anyway. 

Looking at the building I think it would look better with a window or two. But I don't really want upvc in it and I've not really got the experience of finer stuff to make a proper frame like you do. Though I'm sure I can do it if I have the time. 

I'm really not worried about any natural light, I have spent my entire working life under artificial light only and I'll have a lot in there. 

Is there a reason I can't make appropriate holes for windows in the frame and just clad over it until such time as I get a pane and a frame made up?


----------



## MikeG.

No reason at all not to do that. However, you can almost certainly pick up a second hand timber window on Ebay etc for not much money, and it's cheapest to make the hole suit the window rather than t'other way around.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah I've seen some but the distance for some just starts to get a bit daft. I'd probably put 2 in so naturally I don't want 2 different sized units.

Good news is that Davies Timber got back to me and knocked £300 off the price. Bad news they don't have the 10x3x7.2 I asked for.

Good news is I typed it wrong and I meant 9x3 which they have. Can get delivery at the start of June.

Just need to finalise my lists and get stuff on the way now.

Kellaway just got back to me with their quote. Basically cheaper on everything and can also do the type 1, sand and mesh cheaper than anyone else I've seen. Just waiting to hear on if they have featheredge. 

They are still rummaging for a ridge beam though. The savings are enough that it would make sense to order with them and just get the featheredge and ridge from Davies if I have to.


----------



## Inspector

Any reason for not building the ridge beam from thinner stock? Code, tradition or personal preference? Two or three 2x10's glued (construction adhesive) and screwed together for example. Also a lot easier when short staffed to carry up and assemble where you need it. 

Pete


----------



## DBT85

Inspector":2f0p9e02 said:


> Any reason for not building the ridge beam from thinner stock? Code, tradition or personal preference? Two or three 2x10's glued (construction adhesive) and screwed together for example. Also a lot easier when short staffed to carry up and assemble where you need it.
> 
> Pete


The beam I want is only 9x3 anyway so a few 10x2 together might be a little over the top.

As this buiding is under 30m2 internal code isn't anything to worry about. You could make it from matchsticks if you wanted to!


----------



## Inspector

Different rules then. Here a 9x3 would be a special order, if you could find it at all. Pretty much all the wood for construction is a 2 x something except for parallax type beams that are made of long strand chips fused/glued together. The 2x is all dressed too, so no rough wood full sized. I even went to a sawmill once and wanted to buy rough yellow and red cedar to make furniture with, preferring to thickness myself and they wouldn't sell it unless they had dressed all first. So all our 2x is actually 1 1/2" thick and the second dimension would be likewise smaller. 2x10 being 1 1/2 x 9 1/2 for example. 

Pete


----------



## DBT85

Inspector":1mhgjpnq said:


> Different rules then. Here a 9x3 would be a special order, if you could find it at all. Pretty much all the wood for construction is a 2 x something except for parallax type beams that are made of long strand chips fused/glued together. The 2x is all dressed too, so no rough wood full sized. I even went to a sawmill once and wanted to buy rough yellow and red cedar to make furniture with, preferring to thickness myself and they wouldn't sell it unless they had dressed all first. So all our 2x is actually 1 1/2" thick and the second dimension would be likewise smaller. 2x10 being 1 1/2 x 9 1/2 for example.
> 
> Pete


Yeah it's the same here just in metric. You buy a 50x100 (2x4) and it's actually probably 47*95


----------



## DBT85

Well I have my suppliers for just about everything now lined up, tomorrow Mr Tesco is going to get a sharp pain in his wallet as I load up the card.

Just need to finalise my timber numbers and decide what I'll use the formwork for and adjust accordingly. At least with 90% of it coming from a more local place I can get more when I get it wrong!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":w9g8q2k2 said:


> Well I have my suppliers for just about everything now lined up, tomorrow Mr Tesco is going to get a sharp pain in his wallet as I load up the card.
> 
> Just need to finalise my timber numbers and decide what I'll use the formwork for and adjust accordingly. At least with 90% of it coming from a more local place I can get more when I get it wrong!


I don’t think it’s possible to get the numbers exact first delivery. I had a couple of top ups as the work progressed, partly because I didn’t want everything on site all at once wrecking the lawn so I phased it as a JIT system. Worked really well. I’ve got one length of 4x2 and one length of 6x2 left over, and they will get used when the summer house is built ( yep, just been informed we’re having a summer house :shock: )

I shall soon be able to sit and watch someone else grafting away day after day.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":3416hk7i said:


> DBT85":3416hk7i said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have my suppliers for just about everything now lined up, tomorrow Mr Tesco is going to get a sharp pain in his wallet as I load up the card.
> 
> Just need to finalise my timber numbers and decide what I'll use the formwork for and adjust accordingly. At least with 90% of it coming from a more local place I can get more when I get it wrong!
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think it’s possible to get the numbers exact first delivery. I had a couple of top ups as the work progressed, partly because I didn’t want everything on site all at once wrecking the lawn so I phased it as a JIT system. Worked really well. I’ve got one length of 4x2 and one length of 6x2 left over, and they will get used when the summer house is built ( yep, just been informed we’re having a summer house :shock: )
> 
> I shall soon be able to sit and watch someone else grafting away day after day.
Click to expand...


Yeah I'm sure I'll forget something daft. As long as waiting for it doesn't take a week I'm not too worried. I need to get ordered now as some stuff still wont be here for 10 days. Will try and arrange for certain bits to arrive at certain times.

I guess since she's seen you build all of that she knows you have no excuse for a summer house! Make her do the roof tho :lol:


----------



## Sheptonphil

Have done a bit more probing on the summer house, it seems more like a raised deck, open fronted but with 3/4 roofed, back and two side half walls. Got to take a BBQ on deck and have somewhere comfortable to sit in the shade. She wasn’t enamoured by your suggestion, no point putting her comments here, the filter will change them to pineapple. :lol:


----------



## DBT85

Probably a dumb question but is a 2x4 is ok for tamping a 5m wide pour?

Also, it was M18 for the rafter tie bolts/rod wasn't it? Just normal BZP stuff.


----------



## MikeG.

If there are two of you tamping from the outside, then you'll want something bigger than a 4x2, and you'll want to add handles. I tamp from within the formwork wearing wellies with a shorter tamper of 6x1, maybe 2.5m long. Mine has hand holes cut in it. It's the only way to do it if you are alone......walking backwards away from the area you've tamped.


----------



## DBT85

Would be 2 of us but doing it inside with wellies.


----------



## MikeG.

That's not going to be easy with that mesh. If you do manage it then I would suggest a 6x1 tamper for one person, with the other person working alongside with a trowel, scooping off excess, or filling in holes. Wear gloves.

If there are two of you I'd be tempted to construct a big tamper which is a couple of feet longer than the width of the pour, and do the work from the outside. Raised handles out of battens are a good idea.


----------



## DBT85

Ok, I'm going to have to get on the mesh to poke it anyway though right?

I'd planned on ordering a 6m 2x4 as the outside of the formwork is going to sit at about 4.8m and add handles either for use on the outside or inside.

Maybe I'll swap that up to a 1x6 and we can see how it goes.


----------



## MikeG.

No. You can wander around the outside with the poker. The poker vibrates the mesh, and the mesh vibrates the concrete all over.

For tamping, you'll want a 6x2 with handles if working from the outside, but a short 6x1 if you are working alone standing in the concrete.


----------



## DBT85

Ahh ok. 

Well, orders have started being placed. All the wood/mesh/aggregate/cladding is just waiting to be paid for. 

Shall sort the roof a bit later.


----------



## mindthatwhatouch

Hi.
It’s getting exciting.......
Just my tuppence worth ( and benefit of hindsight)
Keep thinking about overall design, I thought I had it nailed down fairly well but made some school boy errors, and would do things differently (I guess we all would) Of course it depends on your use, location, projects undertaken, machinery etc. 
My errors, just things I didn’t consider. More windows needed, do not underestimate the beauty of natural light. As Mike said, it’s easier to make the opening fit so find a couple (or more) secondhand double glazed window frames. I left a wider opening than was required until I lucked out on a set of french patio doors.
You could always block or screen off the interior, if you’re worried about security. At the very least consider making a couple of openings between studs to fit a standard ready made window size from a supplier that you like so they can be added in the future. I thought it was nice and bright once I finished the inside, and clad with ply. Now it’s full of stuff it’s quite dark in places, paint the walls white.

Do not underestimate the need for storage. The downside of windows/doors is they take up wall space! I have nowhere to store an 8x4 sheet flat against the wall because of the stupid piers I put in(I know that’s not an issue here) and if I stand it upright it hits the ceiling! Consider if you put ties between rafters have you enough room to swing a board or sheet. I seem to be constantly reorganising to gain a bit of floor or wall space, it should be big enough but........ (particularly if you have to store timber, bikes, diy stuff, random rubbish) Of course it’s entirely possible that I have too much stuff :wink: :wink: 

If I was you I’d buy a nail gun rather than hire do you have a compressor? I just sold mine after the house extension was complete. You WILL need more fixings and timber than you thought. As you’ve just put in a nice sized order with some one locally you’ll get a decent relationship going with them, so it’s no hassle to put some extra 4x2 onto that next order when you realise ‘oops forgot something’

I’m all up for doing things correctly (says someone who regularly over-engineers or spends far too long on the silliest task) but as far as things like tying rebar, amount of overlap etc, Don’t stress, if you want to spend £20 on a hooked stick then go for it. A pair of pliers works just as well, I used to have a hook that I made that fitted in a Yankee screwdriver (never did find it when I needed it) a hook shape wire in a bit of broom handle if you don’t want to use pliers. Google ‘manual rebar tying tool’
use your time and attention to: the rebar not being too close to edge, top or bottom of concrete, getting it level and getting a decent finish, is the concrete going to be the floor finish, If so are you insulating the slab? (You’ve considered insulation in walls and ceiling, what about the floor) 
You’ve got enough concrete (and using a poker is good practice, some builders never even seen one!) and rather than the usual bits of brick to support the rebar you seem to be using chairs. Once the mesh is in, and assuming you can work from the sides then avoid walking or standing in it. 
One person on rake/ poker and two on the tamper works well. 
Avoid putting too much water in the concrete. (Builders like to do this cos it makes pour easier)
Hope this helps, keep asking questions, oh and one more thing. Take pictures. We like pictures.


----------



## MikeG.

mindthatwhatouch":26lgbgxw said:


> .......I used to have a hook that I made that fitted in a Yankee screwdriver (never did find it when I needed it) a hook shape wire in a bit of broom handle if you don’t want to use pliers. Google ‘manual rebar tying tool’......



I bought a commercial one of those......a potato sack tier from an agricultural merchant(like this).......and a sack full of little soft wire ties with loops on the end. It makes the job very quick and easy. A couple of quick pulls of the handle and the wire was tied.


----------



## DBT85

mindthatwhatouch":ed8tl7mm said:


> Hi.
> It’s getting exciting.......
> Just my tuppence worth ( and benefit of hindsight)
> Keep thinking about overall design, I thought I had it nailed down fairly well but made some school boy errors, and would do things differently (I guess we all would) Of course it depends on your use, location, projects undertaken, machinery etc.
> My errors, just things I didn’t consider. More windows needed, do not underestimate the beauty of natural light. As Mike said, it’s easier to make the opening fit so find a couple (or more) secondhand double glazed window frames. I left a wider opening than was required until I lucked out on a set of french patio doors.
> You could always block or screen off the interior, if you’re worried about security. At the very least consider making a couple of openings between studs to fit a standard ready made window size from a supplier that you like so they can be added in the future. I thought it was nice and bright once I finished the inside, and clad with ply. Now it’s full of stuff it’s quite dark in places, paint the walls white.
> 
> Do not underestimate the need for storage. The downside of windows/doors is they take up wall space! I have nowhere to store an 8x4 sheet flat against the wall because of the stupid piers I put in(I know that’s not an issue here) and if I stand it upright it hits the ceiling! Consider if you put ties between rafters have you enough room to swing a board or sheet. I seem to be constantly reorganising to gain a bit of floor or wall space, it should be big enough but........ (particularly if you have to store timber, bikes, diy stuff, random rubbish) Of course it’s entirely possible that I have too much stuff :wink: :wink:
> 
> If I was you I’d buy a nail gun rather than hire do you have a compressor? I just sold mine after the house extension was complete. You WILL need more fixings and timber than you thought. As you’ve just put in a nice sized order with some one locally you’ll get a decent relationship going with them, so it’s no hassle to put some extra 4x2 onto that next order when you realise ‘oops forgot something’
> 
> I’m all up for doing things correctly (says someone who regularly over-engineers or spends far too long on the silliest task) but as far as things like tying rebar, amount of overlap etc, Don’t stress, if you want to spend £20 on a hooked stick then go for it. A pair of pliers works just as well, I used to have a hook that I made that fitted in a Yankee screwdriver (never did find it when I needed it) a hook shape wire in a bit of broom handle if you don’t want to use pliers. Google ‘manual rebar tying tool’
> use your time and attention to: the rebar not being too close to edge, top or bottom of concrete, getting it level and getting a decent finish, is the concrete going to be the floor finish, If so are you insulating the slab? (You’ve considered insulation in walls and ceiling, what about the floor)
> You’ve got enough concrete (and using a poker is good practice, some builders never even seen one!) and rather than the usual bits of brick to support the rebar you seem to be using chairs. Once the mesh is in, and assuming you can work from the sides then avoid walking or standing in it.
> One person on rake/ poker and two on the tamper works well.
> Avoid putting too much water in the concrete. (Builders like to do this cos it makes pour easier)
> Hope this helps, keep asking questions, oh and one more thing. Take pictures. We like pictures.



Thanks for the post!

With regard windows, I will draw some bits up today and see what I can find on the second hand market. With some price reductions and some other bits being funded by my father in law, there is actually a bit of wiggle room for some windows. I know I could just buy panels and make a frame, it csnt be THAT hard. At least that ay they'd match.

The concrete won't be insulated under. I won't be using the workshop all day every day to take advantage of its thermal mass, so I might possibly maybe insulate over the top of it and have a floating floor. It's not 100% certain yet but it's likely. Insulaton I have as much as I could want of here.

I've got meshmen (concrete castles) in the boot of my car that I picked up today from Travis Perkins of all places, those will support the bottom mesh. A bunch of 90mm circle mesh spacers will keep the top mesh away from the bottom one but still 50mm off the surface. I did also buy a bunch of the ties and the spinney hook jobbie.

It'll all be white inside with lots of led lights, so not too many dingy corners hopefully, and the floor to ceiling height will at minimum allow me to have a sheet standing up.

I'm fortunate that this won't be a combined workshop and shed, so things like pressure washers and lawn mowers won't ever go inside unless I have to fix them! There will be at least one 7m and one 5m wall with no windows, as they are on the boundary so will just be staring at bushed or trees in close proximity. So I'm hoping storage space with that, storage on the rafter ties and maybe some other solutions will see me OK.

I don't have a compressor here, but also hire isn't a cost I have to bear. I'm sure I'll use more fixings and timber than I've planned, but I did at least start with a design that has literally every brick, slate, stud etc in it that I need. So hopefully I won't be too far out.

The slab will be 7m x 5m give or take so I'm not sure how much we can avoid getting in the middle. It'll be fine with the big float but to rake it around I'll probably have to get in there a little.

We've just got to keep up with a 1 or 2 ton dumper with a 60m minimum round trip, so I think we should be OK. A mate who is hopefully helping has done some slabs before and even has his own rake haha. 

Fear not, there are going to be many pics, questions and if I don't cock it up entirely maybe even a time lapse or 12.

There's even a detailed log of what's been bought so anyone following along can see how much its hurt. It's not too bad at the moment. I knocked the better part of 500 off with the merchant from price I was expecting to pay so that was a good start.


----------



## DBT85

As the thread title so beautifully indicates, spending has started. So it's finally happening :shock: I think my first post in a workshop thread was in about 2016, that's how long I've been thinking about it!

£2336 dropped today on a lot of the build, bar the ridge, feather edge, dpm, membrane and tiles. That includes some extras here and there in case of bent or damaged looking boards. There is also some overlap with some parts so if I'm short one I can nick it from elsewhere. 

I wanted to get the ridge and FE ordered too but Davies never got back to me and by the time I called them they were shut and of course they are closed on weekends.

For anyone that might care or want to know prices and what I'm using for what, below is everything and its individual Inc vat price, I'll not include rubbish like tools as even less people will care.

Online or collected today - £85.18
60x Concrete Meshmen 40/50mm - £14.40 - To hold the bottom mesh 50mm up - Travis Perkins of all places
1x 30mx300mm DPC - £9.99 - DPC - Screwfix
1x 9.6mx20mm galv band - 7.99 - To stop the workshop being blown away :lol: - Screwfix
12x 90mm Circle Wire spacers - £28.80 - to hold the top mesh away from the bottom mesh
1x bundle of 150mm double loop ties - £24 - to wire it all together


Arriving Friday 29th - £1003.77 - Slab and plinth all from Kellaway Worcester
10x bags Type 1 - £355.20 - Subbase
3x bags sharp sand - £154.80 - blinding
12x 3.6x2m A142 mesh - £201.45 - reinforcement
5x 50x200 6m - £106.20 - formwork and later rafter ties
5x 50x50 4.8m - £24.04 - formwork support and vampire patrol
1x 50x150 6m £18.61 - tamp and later anywhere its needed
28x 100mm lightweight block - £38.64 - inner plinth
20x 25kg builders sand - £59.28 - mortar (I know mike will think I'm mad for not buying a huge bag)
5x 25kg cement - £23.94 -Mortar
1x plasticiser - £3.58 - Mortar


Arriving Wednesday 3rd - £1247.53 - 95% of framework all from Kellaway Worcester
15x 50x100 4.8m - £128.73 - Sole/Top plates and leveling plate on top of bricks.
45x 50x100 3m - £241.38 - Studs and noggins
4x 50x150 4.8m - £47.23 - Rafter ties (the other 3 to come from the formwork)
2x 50x50 4.8m - £12.50- infills for OSB support
4x 25x100 4.8m - £18.60 - fascias, corner details, barge boards etc
1x 25x150 4.8m - £6.99 - Asked for 25x75 for corner details but I can cut this down.
54x 25x50 4.8m blue batten - £163.94 - all the battening
35x OSB3 11mm - £417.90 - internal cladding
28x 50x150 3m - £206.64 - rafters

Tomorrow is sorting tiles, DPM, roof/wall membrane and doing my drawings for the framework and something window shaped for the one 7m wall. As I said before, I'd like to start by knowing exactly what I'm supposed to be aiming for.

As things stand I'm hoping for a hole to appear in my garden on Wednesday, fill it up once everything arrives Friday and hopefully be in a position to order the pour on Monday, probably for the Wednesday or Friday AM as the kid will be at nursery. 

The photos and fun shall start soon!


----------



## DBT85

Additional

Do I just want some Ronseal end grain preserver to dip my cut bits in or are there any other suggestions


----------



## MikeG.

I use Protim, but there are lots. Put some in a shallow bowl like a washing up bowl, and stand your cuts in there for a few seconds whilst you cut the next lot.


----------



## DBT85

Ta Mike,

And it was M18 for the rafter tie bolts yes?


----------



## MikeG.

Yep. I would buy threaded rod.


----------



## MikeG.

Back to the end-cut preservative........It's a good idea to get one with a colour in it, so you can see at a glance if you've treated the ends. It's easy in the confusion of bits of wood all over the place to lose track of which have been done and which haven't.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah I will.

Was already going to get rod don't worry!


----------



## mindthatwhatouch

Goodo  
I fully intended to record costs as well but just ended up throwing the receipts in a folder, I admire your organisation.

What are you using as a plinth for the stud work?


----------



## DBT85

mindthatwhatouch":3j01w29l said:


> Goodo
> I fully intended to record costs as well but just ended up throwing the receipts in a folder, I admire your organisation.
> 
> What are you using as a plinth for the stud work?


Haha yeah it's a challenge! Most of it I can do before I have any toys to play with so I have the time.

Plinth will be 3 course brick for the outer and 50mm block for the inner. Mike's method 2.0.

I just have to decide on the bricks. We have loads down in the farmyard. Enough in one type that look good but there are no frogs.
Figure my first time laying might be best with ones with frogs!


----------



## DBT85

I'll leave this here so you can play the game "why would he have been mega annoyed with the amount of tiles he ordered"

Ignore the chart, its missing some things anyway. Just look at the diagram. The slates are 300x600.


----------



## Sheptonphil

For a start, Based on a 7.2 x 4.5 building, the rafter length will be 2.5 metres at 25 degree pitch. You’ll need another row of 24 to cover the 2.5 metres each side, you will need an extra 24 Tiles for each double bottom starter courses, and 24 more each side for a top row. So total for both sides, Extra row +48, starters +48 top row +48 at least four of these will be tile and a half. So 144-6= 138 standard and 4 doubles. 

Your 316 full plus 16 x1.5 comes to 340, you had 18 rows at 24 which is 432 so your figure on the chart by diagram is way out anyways. 

I make it more like 12 rows a side = 24 Rows, 24 tiles per row = 576. One tile per row will be tile and a half, so 24x1.5= 36 equivalent. 

I recon you will need
576-36=540 singles Plus 24 doubles (they have to be cut to tile and a half)

Not surprisingly, that’s the same area as I used, and my workshop is 29.98 sqm.


----------



## DBT85

Ahh you're cheating and working it out with sums :lol: 

When I drew it up I completely omitted any headlap. I'd have been very upset.

The numbers are wrong on that chart for a multitude of reasons, I did say ignore it (hammer). There's no first row. Though in that diagram the top row are there. They just happen to end at the same point as the full tile underneath because I'd used no headlap.

In Roof 2.0, I do come to exactly 540 tiles and 24 double tiles (before adding spares) 8) . I have adjusted that headlap though for the sake of the drawing.

Did you use a set headlap based on minimum spec or did you pick one that meant less bits of tile cut off at the ridge?

Question now is do I spring the extra £200 for teh Moorland slates and have the dressed edge or just stick to the Jutland that are like yours and just square.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Also take in to account, whilst the tile is 300m wide, you will create a gap of 4-5mm between each tile. Over 24 tiles this could amount to nearly a half tile extra. You will find 7200mm/300mm isn’t 24, more like 23.5. The head lap at the ridge I ended up with was 150mm instead of the 110mm I’d used all the way up. It looks no different from any distance and means the ridge has even better protection from wind driven rain. If you want to be really pedantic, you could trim off 40mm of the top tile, but there really is no need. You can’t just adjust the headlap to suit on pre drilled tiles. The max you can really go is 110mm as your nail is then just against the previous row assuming a 245 mm gauge on the battens. You can’t space battens less to get a bigger headlap and get a nail in the next row without drilling every lap. ‘Universal spacing’ is finite. 

Do you go for riven? I thought about it, but the tiles on all the houses around are a mixture of dressed and plain, I went with the half price bargain from the Bay, and went straight edge. My cost base was already spiralling due to building control restrictions on cladding, insulation and internal finishes, so had to draw a line somewhere. I’m really happy with the roof I’ve ended up with, riven would have doubled the cost, I’ve no regrets, although it would have been a nice ‘upgrade’.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah I counted for 303mm wide tiles rather than 300 for that reason. The actual distance from face of batten one end to face of batten the other is 7105mm, so a fraction under 23.5 tiles with that space, though apparently with fibre cement tiles it can be wider if needed. That extra half a tile (150mm) split at each end goes nicely to just about extend further than the feather edge once its applied. 

From my drawings the headlap would have to be in the region of 124mm to eliminate the need to cut both top rows of tiles. So too large.

Did you just cut a template slate adn then cut all other to match or did you measure them all individually?

I'm not too worried about riven faces on the tiles, but I did think about the dressed edges. At the end of the day the buildings here have about 5 different coverings so adding one more isn't going to upset the apple cart!

Sorted out my DPM last night from ebay, 6x8m for £49. Will have to get it lined up nicely! Didn't really want to have to join 2 together.

Also this lot arrived.


----------



## Sheptonphil

When you reach ridge, You will have a batten almost directly above the previous one for the final tile. 

I marked each one with a scribe line. I hooked the tile on the rivet, offered up a slate from the opposite side, sighted a 10mm ridge gap, scribed and cut each one. It took 30 seconds a tile to measure, a little less to cut. The top tile will need drilling to fix, as the holes will not be in the right place. 

I put a vented ridge roll over the top at the end, fully ventilated, no bugs or water in.


----------



## DBT85

So, finally adding some windows. Too small? Too not spaced from either end evenly causing your eye to twitch?

Acquisition of windows to whatever size I want isn't a problem.

Those are 755x1085 openings. My gut says go wider.


----------



## MikeG.

It's how they co-ordinate with the internal layout that counts. Obviously any wall given over to window is wall you can't use for something else, such as storage, so window sizes are always a compromise. As it happens, they look great to me. BTW, add 10 to 20mm to your window size to get your structural opening size.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike. Layout will be a fair bit decided as I go, simply because my actual workshop space is nearly doubling. Things will get moved around as I've nothing too heavy yet that can't shift as I get comfortable. I've not had as many years as you to learn where I want stuff. I only just started putting things on walls to get them off my workbenches!

I literally just make the hole the size to fit with one stud missing. The shorter section of that long wall nadgers it up a bit for the left window just because of where I've chosen to join them. One OSB sheet will span both the long and the short part of that wall, I figured it couldn't hurt. 

I might draw a v2 with a wider opening and see how I feel. I estimate I have until about the 5th to decide before framing could start.


----------



## MikeG.

It's wise to try to avoid symmetry when positioning 2 windows in a facade. Otherwise, you'll always see it as eyes in a face.


----------



## HOJ

Just a quick observation, looking at your elevation drawing for the frame, I would put the lintels for the openings under the wall plate, not on the top of the windows.


----------



## GPB

Also, make sure the bottom of the windows is high enough for benches, storage cabinets or even sheet material to be placed under. 

I positioned my windows 1200mm from the floor and currently have a 950mm high bench under one and 1000mm high metal cabinets under the other.


----------



## Inspector

I'm with GPB in having the windows high enough for useful space below. I have 3 across the front of the shop that are about 27"/700mm off the floor. It was done that way to match the rest of the windows in the attached house. You can't put much in front of them unless you don't mind blocking them. In your shoes I would move them up the wall and have the bottom of the window a touch above sheet height. Electrics also above sheet height between the windows. With the header/lintel (for Mike) at the top of the wall there is room to have a 6"/150mm dust pipe run across the top of the wall with drops between if needed. It is nice to have them open if your budget allows. The breeze is welcome in the summer. 

One other small consideration. If the window is further up it is that much harder for a rat bag to climb into.

Pete


----------



## DBT85

Appreciate the comments chaps. Felling occured today, just need to finish clearing up. digger will deal with what's left.






Rejigged things and now I have this. Just realised I need to put my plate in under the sole still.








HOJ":1r5882l9 said:


> Just a quick observation, looking at your elevation drawing for the frame, I would put the lintels for the openings under the wall plate, not on the top of the windows.


Could you explain why for me?

Never mind, Just moved the window up and it basically moved the lintel to the plate anyway.



GPB":1r5882l9 said:


> Also, make sure the bottom of the windows is high enough for benches, storage cabinets or even sheet material to be placed under.
> 
> I positioned my windows 1200mm from the floor and currently have a 950mm high bench under one and 1000mm high metal cabinets under the other.



At the moment the bottom of that opening is 1015 from the slab, so approx 937mm from the top of any floating floor. I will raise it higher than that I think.



Inspector":1r5882l9 said:


> I'm with GPB in having the windows high enough for useful space below. I have 3 across the front of the shop that are about 27"/700mm off the floor. It was done that way to match the rest of the windows in the attached house. You can't put much in front of them unless you don't mind blocking them. In your shoes I would move them up the wall and have the bottom of the window a touch above sheet height. Electrics also above sheet height between the windows. With the header/lintel (for Mike) at the top of the wall there is room to have a 6"/150mm dust pipe run across the top of the wall with drops between if needed. It is nice to have them open if your budget allows. The breeze is welcome in the summer.
> 
> One other small consideration. If the window is further up it is that much harder for a rat bag to climb into.
> 
> Pete



I'd like it to open eventually but it might well be that to get it in there in the first place I just knock something together to let light in.


----------



## MikeG.

That looks like a workshop to me.


----------



## DBT85

Not nearly enough stuff piled everywhere as a trip hazard!


----------



## HOJ

> Could you explain why for me?


Putting them at the top means you can position rafters along its length rather than trying to land on a stud position, you can't always put windows and doors on gauge.

Also, I put on a header plate as well which also gives more flex where the rafters land, it will also span over wall frames where they are joined in a run and at the corners, helps to stiffen everything up, belt and braces.

Looking at your last drawing, I would make the gable ends (spandrels) as frames as well, rather than messing with loose sticks, it will also give you a means of support for setting the ridge beam, if you make them as 2 triangles you can put a "King post" in between to sit under the ridge.

For example:





Bear in mind I build for residential use, and have to comply with Building regs, you can, by all means ignore my comments as in this case they don't apply!


----------



## DBT85

Thanks for the details HOJ.

As you can see I've moved the lintels up more to get the window higher than anything else, though it has the added benefit you mention. The plan is to get the rafters on studs all along the plate anyway. I've also got OSB sheet covering the joins between frame joins, though I understand the use of a top plate for that purpose also.

I'll have a think about the gable ends. Much of my thinking has come from Mikes own build but naturally being an architect he often knows more than anyone else chipping in with ideas so to have further thoughts from a pro is great! 

My current plan for the ridge is to use some lengths secured together with a suitable gap and stand them on the floor against the gable ends where the ridge needs to go (as its 225x75). Then lift one end up a few feet, put a pin in under it and then do the other end. Just walking it up a bit at a time to its eventual height.

What are your thoughts on my beam spanning that 3m gap between rafters to give me storage in the roof space, given that there are also 150x50 ties supporting the rest of it and stopping things spreading?


----------



## DBT85

First attempt at using the time lapse on a very cheap camera. Might end up using my slr or maybe both, or neither, who knows!

1 shot every 10 secs, could probably be less. Only a 20 sec vid and its all done by 12 seconds ha.

https://youtu.be/IANe-41CSPw


----------



## MikeG.

Excellent little video! Your little pink-clad helper needs to smarten her ideas up a bit, though. It was almost as if she was just a spectator.


----------



## DBT85

Trust me when I say she'll be trying to help when it all kicks off. It's just a variable definition of the word help. The life of a toddler.


----------



## DBT85

So I might have found 2 windows in the barn that will suit until I order new ones, they are blown but still intact. Need to measure up. I can deal with them being different widths but different heights might make my eye twitch.

Also around the barn are the piles and piles of bricks, naturally not 290 of any one bloody type, but close enough that I don't mind a few straggles hidden around the back. There are also a bunch with no frog. I guess bricking for the first time might be best with frogged bricks huh?


----------



## HOJ

As I say, my work is regulated, so I would have engineer calcs done for the structure, in any case I would be inclined to put collar ties on in that section, with bolts and star washers in between any meeting faces, + plus a couple of 4.5mm galv nails.

Whist it makes a good space for storage, take it from me, once you start storing stuff up there, you really don't need it any more.

Catching up on you last post don't spoil it all be trying to recylce old bricks that have been lying around, more than likely be all different sizes, covered in algae, and possibly frost damaged, & if you haven't done much brick laying could be very challenging.


----------



## DBT85

HOJ":2ngd159t said:


> As I say, my work is regulated, so I would have engineer calcs done for the structure, in any case I would be inclined to put collar ties on in that section, with bolts and star washers in between any meeting faces, + plus a couple of 4.5mm galv nails.
> 
> Whist it makes a good space for storage, take it from me, once you start storing stuff up there, you really don't need it any more.
> 
> Catching up on you last post don't spoil it all be trying to recylce old bricks that have been lying around, more than likely be all different sizes, covered in algae, and possibly frost damaged, & if you haven't done much brick laying could be very challenging.



Oh it's OK, the bricks that are here that I'd use are all good clean. One batch of about 210 still have the plastic wrap on.

Thanks for the other details too.


----------



## MikeG.

I'd respectfully disagree with Hoj about the star washers. They make the situation worse, not better, in that they prevent a proper mating of the 2 timber surfaces. No building inspector around here asks for them any more. You can put collar ties in that section if it makes you sleep easier, but you don't need them.


----------



## Inspector

I assume the construction adhesive that comes in caulking tubes is available to you. It would be better than the star washers. Same applies to using it in addition to fasteners if you are building the lintel/headers out of 2x stock. 

Pete


----------



## HOJ

MikeG.":1p5q08rt said:


> I'd respectfully disagree with Hoj about the star washers. They make the situation worse, not better,



I used the wrong terminology, meant Toothed timber connector as in : 





Are they not used anymore? has been a few years since I used any, most "rooves" I work on now are bought in trusses or Easijoists types.


----------



## DBT85

A thought occurs, how do I seal the incoming wiring conduit to the DPM, since its got to go through it?


----------



## MikeG.

HOJ":17wnhkii said:


> MikeG.":17wnhkii said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd respectfully disagree with Hoj about the star washers. They make the situation worse, not better,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used the wrong terminology, meant Toothed timber connector as in :
> 
> Are they not used anymore? has been a few years since I used any, most "rooves" I work on now are bought in trusses or Easijoists types.
Click to expand...


Yep, they're the things I was talking about. The body of the washer keeps the two pieces of timber apart, so you get rocking, and reduced resistance to twisting etc.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":1kczzm9n said:


> A thought occurs, how do I seal the incoming wiring conduit to the DPM, since its got to go through it?



Yep, it's always a beauty, that one. I think ultimately you just have to accept a lack of perfection. You cut an under-sized cross through the plastic, squeeze the conduit through from underneath, then tape the upstanding bits of plastic to the conduit. Nice theory!! The conduit has inevitably been pushed through a muddy trench, so is dirty, slimy and wet. It may also be ribbed. Good luck sealing that.


----------



## DBT85

Slates ordered from roofing superstore, thats another £815.57, have to get the 600x600 from elsewhere as they wanted 70 days. Selco have them so me and the kid will pop out in a bit. Oddly they sell the ridge end caps but nobody can get them at the moment, so I ordered 2 more normal ridge tiles and will change to end caps when I can.

90mm Circular mesh spacers, ties and tool have also arrived.



MikeG.":1nggwk78 said:


> DBT85":1nggwk78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A thought occurs, how do I seal the incoming wiring conduit to the DPM, since its got to go through it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, it's always a beauty, that one. I think ultimately you just have to accept a lack of perfection. You cut an under-sized cross through the plastic, squeeze the conduit through from underneath, then tape the upstanding bits of plastic to the conduit. Nice theory!! The conduit has inevitably been pushed through a muddy trench, so is dirty, slimy and wet. It may also be ribbed. Good luck sealing that.
Click to expand...

Ah fine, so don't sweat it then. Mine should at least be clean. 

Try and tape with dpm tape or since its ribbed and stuff just gaffa it on?


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":mr6gchbc said:


> DBT85":mr6gchbc said:
> 
> 
> 
> A thought occurs, how do I seal the incoming wiring conduit to the DPM, since its got to go through it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, it's always a beauty, that one. I think ultimately you just have to accept a lack of perfection. You cut an under-sized cross through the plastic, squeeze the conduit through from underneath, then tape the upstanding bits of plastic to the conduit. Nice theory!! The conduit has inevitably been pushed through a muddy trench, so is dirty, slimy and wet. It may also be ribbed. Good luck sealing that.
Click to expand...

Has nobody produced a rubberised disc/cone patch you can stick over a small hole in the DPM with an upstand specially designed to seal to conduits? You can’t just produce extra DPM around the cut to secure to a tube Without rucking everything up, but an add on cone would solve the problem.


----------



## DBT85

So I've got 2 25mm DG units for windows in the cow shed (no longer inhabited), 96x175 and 96x114. Will draw them up and see how it looks as they might be too big. The seals have likely gone but they'll fill a hole until I replace them.

I thought I could use the bricks we have stored, but the majority are imperial sizes and reclaimed from the conversions that went on on the farm, so the only clean ones are metric and I'm at least 100 short. Savings elsewhere will cover 300 bricks.

EDIT: 312 Clayton Red Multis added to my order at the merchant. 68p per inc vat. Only need 290 but they had 312 sitting on a pallet so I just took the lot.


----------



## DBT85

Ordered my ridge, but they don't have any of the 175*38 featheredge left and might not get any for 3 plus weeks.

The ridge is a finger jointed job from Sweden or something. Still c24. Didn't know that was a thing but from reading online more and more projects are calling for longer and longer beams. This place can make them upto 13m long!


The first 28 tiles are also here. In the boot of my car! Doubles from selco as roofing super ultra amazing warehouse wanted 70 days.

Hooefully this bloke will message me tonight about making this chuffing great hole in my lawn!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":245ldvbz said:


> Hooefully this bloke will message me tonight about making this chuffing great hole in my lawn!


Like a five year old waiting for Santa  

“Is he here yet?”


----------



## HOJ

> Has nobody produced a rubberised disc/cone patch you can stick over a small hole in the DPM with an upstand specially designed to seal to conduits? You can’t just produce extra DPM around the cut to secure to a tube Without rucking everything up, but an add on cone would solve the problem.



There are products out there, search for Passive House Airtight Grommets.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":2uxdnzha said:


> DBT85":2uxdnzha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hooefully this bloke will message me tonight about making this chuffing great hole in my lawn!
> 
> 
> 
> Like a five year old waiting for Santa
> 
> “Is he here yet?”
Click to expand...

Ha something like that. I don't really mind as the stuff doesn't arrive till Friday, but I am hoping to actually start the painful process of moving 13 tons of aggregate 30 yards on Friday. If the hole isn't dug I'll certainly have less to do! I could cut up my blocks I suppose ha.

I hoping (praying) that the guy doing the hole also has something that can lift these bags for me and move them to the site, as that would save me a ton of time and back death.


----------



## DBT85

I think I may have made a minor mistake. I ordered 135 degree ridge tiles, but I have a 25 degree roof. So that's a 130 degree ridge, so I should have gone a size smaller and got the 120 degree tiles?

In other news, my man is arriving with a digger tomorrow morning!

EDIT:

So this morning I got a call. Your tiles are on the way, I'll be there in 5 minutes as I'm based round the corner! The pallets last leg was from less than 1 mile away.

Anyway, yes I ordered 135 degree tiles for my planned 25 degree roof. On top of that I also ordered graphite ones (just because they didn't have any others available and nor does anyone else). After receiving the order this morning the delivery note had a number for Cembrit on so I called them. The lady was very helpful and said that they do make them in different colours but its only been in the last month that you could get them in the UK, so thats why nobody seems to give colour options. She gave me all the codes and also confirmed stock of the end caps all in the 120 degree and black colour.

Then on to roofingsuperstore who so far have been similarly helpful, taking the new order codes to try and get me the things I actually need, and arrange return of the ones I don't. It'll likely cost me a bit but hopefully less than buying all new ridge tiles from elsewhere (everyone else wants £14 each, roofing superstore only wanted £8).

Oddly, Roofgiant (the only place that uses the manufacturer product codes on their site) want £205 for the tiles and end caps I need but its free delivery. Roofing superstore only want about £110 but want to tack on £75 delivery on even just 1 ridge tile. Hopefully this will all be sorted soon without too much cost to myself for my own error. I have no idea where I got the need for 135 degree ridges from. Stupid.

More importantly, its 9:15 and my digger isn't here.

With 120 degree ridge's on the way I just need to decide on weather I stick to 25 degrees or go up to 30 which was my original idea.


----------



## DBT85

Trees are gone, digging underway.

Chuffing warm out there today.

The ground is so hard that 25cm down a stake pushed down by myself barely indents the surface.


----------



## DBT85

A successful day all in. Richard arrived around 10 to start working and so the camera started to roll. Below is the time lapse if anyone wants to watch a hole get made. Couple of minutes long.

First out came the trees as seen above, then we marked out and he got digging. We're on a slight slope so one side is deeper than the other. It was pretty hard going as we were just at the point in the ground that it was a little tougher to dig apparently. Had I wanted a hole 2" deeper it would have been easier.

The clay is so hard, but as you can see life finds a way and its peppered with roots. The Birch trees in particular were particularly stubborn.

I've just been out with some line and stakes and my little laser level to get an idea in the morning of how far out it is across the whole area. There are always highs and lows but its looking pretty good. Richard has also pledged to help lift the bulk bags round from the delivery site to the hole, so this weekend I might not actually exhaust myself entirely barrowing 12 ish tons of aggregate 30 yards. I do plan to hire a whacker plate and laser level for the weekend so I can get it all prepped. 

I shall call the concrete place tomorrow morning and hopefully get booked for Wednesday. its possible it might be ready Monday, but since I can't be sure and wouldn't want to cancel on the morning itself, Wednesday it'll have to be. How long would I need to wait before starting the brickwork? Friday? Saturday?

Pics














Video
https://youtu.be/8d0dv_7s-90


----------



## DBT85

I've drawn it up with the 2 large windows that are kicking around here. 960x1750 and 960x 1140. May be too large for that 4x6 lintel??

Thought they'd look too big but its not too bad. Given though that I can just order windows any size I want (and would eventually have to replace these dead ones anyway) I might just not bother with them at all.

Large windows





Smaller windows


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1j70psqv said:


> I've drawn it up with the 2 large windows that are kicking around here. 960x1750 and 960x 1140. May be too large for that 4x6 lintel??
> 
> Thought they'd look too big but its not too bad. Given though that I can just order windows any size I want (and would eventually have to replace these dead ones anyway) I might just not bother with them at all.
> 
> Large windows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smaller windows


Large windows are probably nice, but that’s a whole lot of real estate of wall lost. 

The ground hole Looks massive, a wheelbarrow would have been depressing carting all the aggregate across, one barrow, tip, no impression whatsoever, a couple of hundred times  good old Richard. =D>


----------



## Inspector

Nothing stopping you from framing in the opening and sheath it over. When you have the cash cut through and put in the windows.

Pete


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":1p2hs483 said:


> I've drawn it up with the 2 large windows that are kicking around here. 960x1750 and 960x 1140. May be too large for that 4x6 lintel??.........



Looks great, I have to say. However, you are losing a lot of valuable wall space, and I'd want to be certain of having at least 1m below the cill, 1100 preferably. That bigger window is on the limit for a 145 x 95 lintel.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":1u3l4lnr said:


> DBT85":1u3l4lnr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've drawn it up with the 2 large windows that are kicking around here. 960x1750 and 960x 1140. May be too large for that 4x6 lintel??
> 
> Thought they'd look too big but its not too bad. Given though that I can just order windows any size I want (and would eventually have to replace these dead ones anyway) I might just not bother with them at all.
> 
> Large windows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smaller windows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Large windows are probably nice, but that’s a whole lot of real estate of wall lost.
> 
> The ground hole Looks massive, a wheelbarrow would have been depressing carting all the aggregate across, one barrow, tip, no impression whatsoever, a couple of hundred times  good old Richard. =D>
Click to expand...

Yeah it's huge! It's oversize naturally, maybe by 4-500mm on each side, but still, barrowing that lot was hurting and I'd not even started!

With the plinth and everything else the windows would just about be 1100 off the floor.

I think it looks better but as mentioned it's a lot of wall lost. I think a happy medium of slightly smaller windows, but larger than the first drawing.

I'll just make a nice sized hole and get some glass to fit.


----------



## DBT85

Concrete booked for 8am Wednesday. Gives me plenty of time to get it all ready. Could possibly have had it done Monday but couldn't be 100% sure it would be ready so figured it was best to wait.

Not sure what to do with the featheredge. Kellaway can get 200*32 rebated but its a fair bit dearer than the 175*38 that Davies were selling.


----------



## MikeG.

The normal around here is ex 175 x 32. Ex 38 would look extremely chunky, I reckon. That may be suitable for a large building, but not for a small outbuilding like this. Rebated feather edge sits really flat on the wall, and can look great for a modern building. It is a bit over the top for a workshop, though. There's no rush to have the outside clad, though. You can keep looking for some months, because your breather membrane will keep the worst of the weather out.


----------



## DBT85

As you say that I just ordered the 38 :lol: 

We shall have to see how she looks. It'll be reet! I could always hand plane down each board (homer) 

Thats 360m of cladding ordered, 75 lengths for £576 including the £30 delivery. They aren't 100% sure when its coming but as you say there's no major rush. I can get the roof done and go from there. Plenty to keep me busy.


----------



## DBT85

Busy day today made much less deadly thanks to Richard once again. He arrived at 2 with his big red tractor to lift 10 bags of type 1 into the hole he dug just 2 days ago. He managed to get the entire tractor into the pit in the end, we split the bags and then he drove little digger in and levelled it off a bit. Despite that I still ended up knackered as I was still shovelling and also had to dig the first part of the service trench...right through where the bigger birch once lived. Roots everywhere :evil: .

Also popped to the hire shop and got the Leica level and the whacker plate and ordered my roof and wall membrane.

I was actually concerned that we wouldn't have enough type 1. I calculated for a 7.2x5m hole and we ended up with one nearer 7.6 and 5.5, despite that, the 10 bags did it pretty much bang on. I've gone over it a couple of times with the whacker but had to stop for the evening, so will do more and check it all again. First time over I could feel it was still too undulating so moved some around and it had a better feeling after a second pass. 

Obligatory pics
We have a slight high spot in this one





Pretty good in the end





8:30 tomorrow the sand arrives and Richard shall valiantly return again to drop it next to the pit. Saving me considerable work. After that is done I can form up, DPM down, mesh down and relax till Wednesday morning when concrete occurs.

On that subject, given the current weather and the projections for it to continue until Wednesday, what do I need to do to this slab after I've floated it? It's been baking out there and naturally I don't want all this work to be for naught. Before anyone asks, I don't have 30m2 of hessian in my cupboard.


----------



## MikeG.

That looks really neat.

Concrete in the heat............keep it as wet as you can for as long as you can. After you've floated it wait until misting it with a spray attachment doesn't make any marks on the surface, and then flood it. Hopefully this will be in the afternoon/ evening of the day concrete is poured in the morning. The following morning, wet it again and if you've got some plastic sheeting or a tarpaulin, pull that over it. Try and keep it wet for 2 or 3 days if you can, but it's surprisingly difficult to do. All that water is the first test of whether or not you got the slab level!


----------



## DBT85

Thanks mike, yeah its turned out ok so far. Hopefully the next bit goes as smoothly.

I don't have a tarp that large but i can get one or two by Wednesday. Would it matter if its light or dark? I figure dark will just warm up the surface more. Some things I read say the tarp needs to be 4mm thick. I want to see the people that lift a tarp that thick.

Just lay the tarp right on the surface and as lightly as possible weigh it down? 

I jsut read about pond curing, so I'm in no way worried now about over watering.


----------



## Sheptonphil

A fantastic start to the project, better than you could have anticipated with the machinery around to do the donkey work. 

Got to ask, why didn’t you move the whole lot 2 or three yards to the right, away from the access track? Sure there’s a good reason.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":38bhyt0j said:


> A fantastic start to the project, better than you could have anticipated with the machinery around to do the donkey work.


I'd be dead if I'd tried to barrow that lot. Honestly.


----------



## DBT85

Not much going on today, the second delivery arrived first thing and big red Fergus moved all but the mesh (as well as my tiles which arrived days ago) round the back into the field. The sharp sand for blinding the hardcore he dumped right next to the slab so that I can finish compacting.

I Spy a Tractor in my Garden





Like a Dog With a Bone





Crappy English Weather





Perfection






I got on and did more of that but not much. As you can see from the photo, this very wavy length of 50*200 shows that my initial passes yesterday were perfectly flat. I moved some more around and got another pass with the whacker before I ran out of fuel for the day.

Tomorrow its more compacting, get the sand out and compacted and then at least some of the formwork. I'm not sure how the hell I'm going to stick my stakes through the type 1 to hold the boards in place.


----------



## Inspector

Holding the form can be with the stake driven in as far as you can and then by putting some in deep into the soil outside the excavation. Then you nail 2x to the stakes in the dirt back to the top/sides of the forms and stakes in the excavation as needed to reinforce them. The downside is the horizontal braces become a tripping hazard and get in the way of wheel barrow or machines placing the concrete. 

Pete


----------



## Yojevol

Is that a cable duct in the corner? Are you putting in a water supply?
Brian


----------



## Sheptonphil

Nice to have the materials on site ready. I haven’t the room or permission to store all The goods waiting, so have to order on the fly as I go and hope I’ve got the lead times right. That 200x50 looks bendier than a bendy thing. I found it surprisingly difficult getting everything absolutely level, but now is where the success of the build lies, as I found out. 

It’s really good seeing the progress of someone else, I can associate with it, but don’t get as tired just watching what you have done. :lol:


----------



## DBT85

Inspector":2y3pnued said:


> Holding the form can be with the stake driven in as far as you can and then by putting some in deep into the soil outside the excavation. Then you nail 2x to the stakes in the dirt back to the top/sides of the forms and stakes in the excavation as needed to reinforce them. The downside is the horizontal braces become a tripping hazard and get in the way of wheel barrow or machines placing the concrete.
> 
> Pete



Oh if I can get the stakes through the type 1 thm I'll be fine. I have hammers ranging all the way up to "Thor left this here". It's just getting it through the type 1.



Yojevol":2y3pnued said:


> Is that a cable duct in the corner? Are you putting in a water supply?
> Brian


It is duct, though only because we had it laying around the farmyard waiting to be used. No plan on water, just ethernet and 2 core SWA. I just prefer duct so that I can pull other things in if needed. There's no real reason I couldn't put some 15mm flex tube in if I really wanted apart from getting rid of it at the other end, though one solution to that did appear in the thread. I may run the pipe in and just leave it in case I want it. At least with conduit I have choice that doesn't mean digging more holes.



Sheptonphil":2y3pnued said:


> Nice to have the materials on site ready. I haven’t the room or permission to store all The goods waiting, so have to order on the fly as I go and hope I’ve got the lead times right. That 200x50 looks bendier than a bendy thing. I found it surprisingly difficult getting everything absolutely level, but now is where the success of the build lies, as I found out.
> 
> It’s really good seeing the progress of someone else, I can associate with it, but don’t get as tired just watching what you have done. :lol:


I am VERY lucky to have the space to even build this, let alone to store all the materials. Also then having a father in law who knows people with machines helps too!

I think getting the forms level will be easy enough, its just getting a half decent sub base down that is a bit harder. At the end of the day if your forms are ok then the concrete will match it! I'm not worried if the sub base isn't snooker table flat, but as you can see yesterdays efforts left me with deviations in multiple inches.


----------



## DBT85

I'm in the middle of doing the blinding and am finding that I can whack it down but will always get tramlines and there seems to be nothing I can do that stops it?


----------



## MikeG.

Doesn't matter. Leave it as is. You don't even need a whacker: you can whack it down with the back of a shovel if you like. There is nothing important about blinding other than it's role in protecting the plastic.


----------



## DBT85

Righto. Probably just saved me going mad and rattling my fillings out for hours.


----------



## DBT85

New problem. I made a jig and can nicely make my vampire spikes.

They don't want to go through the type 1. Going to have to rake out around the formwork to allow the stakes. Yay.

The end of today.

Got my formwork made up and sand spread around.






Need stakes, make janky jig





Todays end point. All 4 corners double staked and perfectly level according to the Leica laser level. The diagonal is out by 2mm. I'll live with it.





Tomorrows plan is to get the rest of it staked and anything else I can do after that. I have about half of my stakes cut (about 44 in total) so I can just get on with it.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Looking great. A fantastic week’s progress.


----------



## MikeG.

That looks text book. Just checking that you have screwed in from the outside....ie screwed through the stakes into the formwork, rather than from the inside (through the formwork into the stakes). You won't get it apart otherwise. It can sometimes be easier to site the stakes remotely and cut in a timber in between. This can be particularly useful if you've used hardcore, or have flinty ground. In your case this would mean whacking stakes into the grass, then wedging in some timber to prop up the formwork. There is tremendous outward pressure on formwork when it's full of wet concrete, so better to err on the generous side when it comes to props.

Your diagonals are bang on.......but levels are more important. Triple check those, won't you.

edit.......I've just noticed that the top of your stakes are above the top of the forms. You'll find this a real nuisance when you are tamping, so go around with a handsaw when you've finished and hack the tops off.

2nd edit  .......have you got room to fit a brick and a 50mm block between the inside edge of the formwork and the ducting? They look a tad close to the edge to me, and once concrete is poured they're stuck. Shove a plastic bag in the end of each before you start splashing the concrete about, won't you.


----------



## DBT85

Ta chaps.

Don't worry I did screw the stakes in from the outside :lol: 

I could put the stakes in the grass no issue, but its then supporting the board properly as they only just clear the surface of the ground and in places don't yet do that. Obviously if the slab was starting at ground level that would be easier. The amount of time it would take me to make individually sized horizontal supports and maybe a diagonal part to also brace the bottom of each point would be huge. I can just rummage the hardcore a bit much easier.

I think I calculated for a stake every 500mm and I have enough to do one every 550mm so I imagine that will suffice. I can always make more if it doesn't feel right. 

Levels were double checked and I shall do so again with the laser before it goes back. I also need to check in the middle of the lengths once I get some stakes in.

Some of the stakes are indeed above the forms, don't worry they'll be out the way before Wednesday morning! Some are thumped down far enough that I don't need to cut them. They were 500mm long each.

There will be room for the ducting. There isn't at the moment as its being held back with string to keep it in its rough position. Once the mesh is in I can secure it to that in its proper location 160mm from the edge. At worst I'd have to make a minor notch in my block. I could do that with a spoon I think! 

Once all of this is ready for Wednesday I'll make my block chopping jig up and get them all done.


Just ordered the 2core SWA from superlec direct. a fair bit cheaper than TLC which I was surprised at. £20 saving alone in delivery! That's another £122 on the list.


----------



## gregmcateer

That's properly exciting! 
You must be jumping up and down as it starts. 

One small thought- when we built my single garage/ workshop, we beefed up the ceiling joists and added a trap door, so I've gained some handy storage space in the roof space. 

Looking forward to watching yours progress


----------



## DBT85

It is Greg! 

No need for a trap door, the roof has 13 rafters but only 7 ties/joists. So there is a section at each end where I'll be able to store things and a 3m section in the middle that will be open all the way upto the underside of the rafters.

You might be able to see it in one of the drawings a bit further up.


----------



## Yojevol

Taking an interest in your project, I'm reminded of a water/moisture ingress problem I had with my workshop. It is a log cabin style structure built up on a course of bricks on a concrete base, ie similar to yours. From your drawings I see that you are proposing to build your brickwork right on the edge of the concrete. If I had done that my problem would have been reduced but not eliminated so I'll tell the story:-
The brick course was built about 6" from the edge of the slab. The building timbers were laid directly on the bricks. After a year or so a few cracks developed in the brick mortar which allowed water ingress resulting in puddles on my workshop floor. This was a problem only on the SW facing wall subject to prevailing wind and rain. It was particularly alarming because I had put in a line of tool cupboards along that wall.
I tried various methods of sealing but to no avail. Eventually it was evident that the whole wall was suffering from the elements so drastic action was needed. This is the result:-



Firstly I sealed the bricks to the slab with flexible plastic flashing. This was followed by cladding the entire wall with fibre shingles making sure they overlapped the flashing by a good margin. This system has been installed for about 4 years now and I've had no further problem.
With your design water falling off the walls will drain down the edge of the slab, but if cracks develop there may be a problem, although your 3 courses of bricks should be more stable than my single layer. It might be an idea to seal the brickwork to prevent moisture seeping through.
Brian


----------



## flying haggis

DBT85":1ab1d8nr said:


> Ta chaps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just ordered the 2core SWA from superlec direct. a fair bit cheaper than TLC which I was surprised at. £20 saving alone in delivery! That's another £122 on the list.


any particular reason why you chose 2 core swa and not three core, i would have gone with three core which means you are not relying solely on the armour for the earth


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis":2jcieqb3 said:


> DBT85":2jcieqb3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ta chaps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just ordered the 2core SWA from superlec direct. a fair bit cheaper than TLC which I was surprised at. £20 saving alone in delivery! That's another £122 on the list.
> 
> 
> 
> any particular reason why you chose 2 core swa and not three core, i would have gone with three core which means you are not relying solely on the armour for the earth
Click to expand...

I only have a TT earth (spike in the ground) being out in the sticks. So there won't be earth from the workshop to the house, the workshop will have its own spike for earth. This is what I expected to happen anyway and then confirmed by the electrician.


----------



## DBT85

All sides are now level and staked at every 1200mm. Just did that to get the level back to the hire place. This afternoon I'll finish staking so that there's only 600 mm between each. Then it's dpm and mesh in! 





Yojevol":i1zr2s65 said:


> Taking an interest in your project, I'm reminded of a water/moisture ingress problem I had with my workshop. It is a log cabin style structure built up on a course of bricks on a concrete base, ie similar to yours. From your drawings I see that you are proposing to build your brickwork right on the edge of the concrete. If I had done that my problem would have been reduced but not eliminated so I'll tell the story:-
> The brick course was built about 6" from the edge of the slab. The building timbers were laid directly on the bricks. After a year or so a few cracks developed in the brick mortar which allowed water ingress resulting in puddles on my workshop floor. This was a problem only on the SW facing wall subject to prevailing wind and rain. It was particularly alarming because I had put in a line of tool cupboards along that wall.
> I tried various methods of sealing but to no avail. Eventually it was evident that the whole wall was suffering from the elements so drastic action was needed. This is the result:- Firstly I sealed the bricks to the slab with flexible plastic flashing. This was followed by cladding the entire wall with fibre shingles making sure they overlapped the flashing by a good margin. This system has been installed for about 4 years now and I've had no further problem.
> With your design water falling off the walls will drain down the edge of the slab, but if cracks develop there may be a problem, although your 3 courses of bricks should be more stable than my single layer. It might be an idea to seal the brickwork to prevent moisture seeping through.
> Brian


Thanks for the interest and the details of your problem Brian.

I can't say that anything about my design will stop it, it's all based on Mike's work. At a guess the 3 course brick and then 50mm block will help, plus the featheredge will kick out a fraction over the brickwork. There won't be anywhere for water to pool.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":2gy3nhtb said:


> ......There won't be anywhere for water to pool.



That's your answer....and why casting the slab edge accurately is really important.

Incidentally, it doesn't need any damage or cracking to the mortar for Yojevol's problem to occur. Mortar will always allow water through, even when perfect, so if there is pooled water sitting on a slab against a wall, you'll have water on the inside in no time flat.


----------



## DBT85

Today proved fruitful again but I am now stuck without assistance tomorrow. I just can't put that mesh down on my own without puncturing the dpm I don't think. 

Formwork re-checked for levels, staked to 600mm and tops sawn off.

DPM unfolded and laid out, corners folded.

First bit of mesh moved but I just gave up without help. Hopefully tomorrow morning father in law can come up and give me a hand to get them down.


----------



## Fidget

That looks enormous doesn't it?
Bet you can't wait


----------



## DBT85

Looks like I'm going to be without a concrete poker


----------



## MikeG.

Damn. That's rather important with all that steel. Do what you can to find one.


----------



## DBT85

I've tried everywhere. Hss will let me have one from 9. But it won't get back here till 9.30 at the earliest. Too late?

Concrete due from 8


----------



## MikeG.

Why wouldn't that work? You don't need it until all the concrete is in the formwork.


----------



## DBT85

I dont know how long I've got to use the thing as I've never done it before. Will it still be of use some 1.5-2 hours after its poured?

Didn;t find out from my hire palce that they didn;t have one until 4:45 so loads of time to sort one.


----------



## MikeG.

It's not quite like that.....because your pour will take some time. You're using a dumper, aren't you? I'll bet it takes half an hour plus to do a lorry load with a dumper, and I bet you have 1+ loads, don't you. So it's going to take well over an hour just to get the concrete in the formwork. You'll then be pushing it roughly into place with forks. I reckon 9.30 will be about the time you'd want to be using it anyway. If you let the readymix company know the situation they might suggest wetting up the concrete a bit, which is fine so long as they also strengthen it, and this should mean that it should still be "pokable" by mid morning, even in this warm weather. As a bonus, I think it's going to be a bit cooler tomorrow, which will help. Poking the concrete will take 5 or 10 minutes, tops.

If you can't do it, then you are just going to have to belt the mesh with you forks, and give it a waggle too. It's not the same thing, of course......but don't sweat it. There's plenty of spare strength in that slab.


----------



## DBT85

It's not a ready mix it's mix on site with a 2 ton dumper.


----------



## MikeG.

You'll be fine. You'll find the guys doing the mixing are extremely helpful, and they'll make it work for you. I can't see any issues with poking it at 9.30.


----------



## DBT85

Ok I'll panic less.

I'll still try and get one from a bit nearer so its just here and ready. If the rest of the pour is done then I can always fill the dumper up before they do and hope there's enough in it to top the slab up after poking.


----------



## DBT85

Well apart from the Drama of the Missing Poker today was another good day. Father in Law Mike arrived at 10 to help get the mesh down and in little time we got the first layer down and tied together, then then circular spacers wired in and then the top layer tied in too. Apart from that all that was left for the site was to clear up to give us space to work tomorrow.

My 7.2m 75x225 also arrived from Davies timber, a solid lump and nicely straight. 

The local hire company (whom we know well enough that I can just walk in and take things off the shelf) delivered a lifting rotating tipping 2 ton dumper and the easy float, but not the fearsome poker. More than a little annoyed at not being told until 16:45 when they knew I needed it for the last 5 days and I even checked on Monday to be sure they had it.

Anyway, off to screwfix to collect the 5x8m tarp and M16 rod. The former to cover the slab and the latter for the rafter/tie joint.

Tomorrow morning the concrete is due at 8:00 from Accumix Concrete (mix on site), Mike will deal with the dumper while Jim and I rake, poke, and tamp the slab. The dumper is a little snug on the access path and will likely only be able to dump from 75% of one long side and half of one short side, so I'm going to be raking a fair bit. Fortunately we're going to have the time it takes him to make his round trip back to the mixer.

In the morning I'm going to try the local hire firms and even places like Travis to see if I can get a poker a little closer to home as Solihul (the nearest HSS to collect from) is far enough away to be a pain in the backside.

Anyway, pictures. I have been doing the time lapse stuff, but will just put one video together for all of the hole being filled. Some has been missed because I thought it was on when it wasn't, but most is there.

A snug fit






All set for the morning





Yesterdays crappy sunset


----------



## owen

Exciting! I'm guessing you've asked the guys mixing the concrete if they have access to a poker? I'd be surprised if they didn't know someone who could lend you one for an hour.


----------



## DBT85

owen":237wtrg9 said:


> Exciting! I'm guessing you've asked the guys mixing the concrete if they have access to a poker? I'd be surprised if they didn't know someone who could lend you one for an hour.


I did indeed. I managed to call them to ask that, by the time I tried to call to say "can you wait an hour" they were shut for the night. Most places are closing at 5 right now so half the hire places I tried didn't even answer the phone. HSS did, so I ordered it, then called to sort out collection time as was told it can't be before 9 and its a good 30-40 minute drive. The wife will be collecting it!


----------



## MikeG.

Looks great. Don't worry........you'll be fine.

Just checking that you've got 50mm cover to the edges of the mesh?


----------



## Sheptonphil

Guess who’s not going to get any sleep tonight with all the excitement.  

Looking real good.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":16yh8ahu said:


> Looks great. Don't worry........you'll be fine.
> 
> Just checking that you've got 50mm cover to the edges of the mesh?


Yep got 50mm to the edges.


----------



## MikeG.

Sheptonphil":2dm2gowk said:


> Guess who’s not going to get any sleep tonight with all the excitement.



Me? I've got a big concrete pour tomorrow, too. Maybe 12 or 15 barrowfuls........


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":110bjqm8 said:


> Sheptonphil":110bjqm8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guess who’s not going to get any sleep tonight with all the excitement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me? I've got a big concrete pour tomorrow, too. Maybe 12 or 15 barrowfuls........
Click to expand...

A local building project finished their foundation concrete pour yesterday, forty nine thousand tonnes!! The last bit was 12,000cu yds gonna need a big tarp for that.


----------



## DBT85

So it's overcast and lightly spitting! Ha. Mike did say it would rain on concrete day.


----------



## DBT85

Mike why do I need a electric poker and not a petrol one


----------



## MikeG.

Count that as a bonus. What you don't want is it hammering down after you've floated it. That would be a pain. But rain during the rest of the proceedings is no problem at all. High heat is the bigger issue, and so the weather has taken a turn for the better for concreting.

Have fun!!

A petrol poker is fine, just unnecessarily large and cumbersome. It's a sledgehammer for a nut......


----------



## DBT85

ah fine, so its not to do with magic poker ness or anything. Fine. I think I might have got something sorted with Travis which is 15 minsa way rather than HSS which is 30-45.


----------



## DBT85

Well it's in. It was quite wet and slipped about. After 3 trips with the dumper the dude said he'd park in the field and so things moved a little more swiftly as he dumped right in.

Were marginal on concrete tho. We'll see.


----------



## flying haggis

Sheptonphil":15js8k8s said:


> MikeG.":15js8k8s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheptonphil":15js8k8s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guess who’s not going to get any sleep tonight with all the excitement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me? I've got a big concrete pour tomorrow, too. Maybe 12 or 15 barrowfuls........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A local building project finished their foundation concrete pour yesterday, forty nine thousand tonnes!! The last bit was 12,000cu yds gonna need a big tarp for that.
Click to expand...

got any pics???


----------



## Sheptonphil

flying haggis":1cuue3n3 said:


> got any pics???


To save diverting the thread here, here’s a link to the =P~ foundation laying pictures there’s more out there if you use the topic as a search in google.


----------



## DBT85

It's as done as it can be for now, the rain is falling at an annoying level so that small craters will still appear if not covered, so we made a tent. 

It's had 2 easyfloats to deal with the bulk of it and I'm hoping to get on it and trowel later once it's firmed up a bit further. 

I'm thankful for the cooler weather but the spitty rain is a pain in the backside.

Regardless, what's there right now will suffice for a surface to then cover anyway. But if I can improve it a little I'll try.

Very thankful to Jim as he was invaluable.

After first float





As she rests now after a second float





We were pretty much bang on with concrete in the end, but it was a very close run thing. After 2 cubes had gone in the driver said It's going to cost a fortune as I've already been here the better part of 40 minutes. That's when he pulled round the back and dumped right into the hole which made life much easier. It was silly of me not to ask him when he arrived if he'd do it. I didn't only because I was told he wouldn't when I booked it.

Anyway, the only part of the whole build that scared me is now mostly done. The best I'll do to it now is go over with a steel trowel later. 
Oh and the featheredge arrived while we were having a break so we had to offload that. Come friday the only thing I'll not have on site for the entire build will be a nail gun and any paint for the featheredge.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Well done getting it done despite not having best working conditions. Looking good.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah it's turned out OK. I'm half way through toweling. Surface looks like the moon on the half I've not done yet. Maybe started 20 mins late but it's working.


----------



## DBT85

Scratch that, got in it a bit later than I thought. The last 3/8ths are too set to trowel.

Lucky it's having a floating floor really.

The rain has at least stopped and the surface now would take it if it came again I think. I can erect my tent again if needed but it's cool and humid now.


----------



## owen

A bit of water won't hurt it especially if it's not the finished floor don't worry. When are you going to start building the walls? That's when it starts getting exciting


----------



## DBT85

I figured I won't touch this till Friday and maybe get the forms off then? Then maybe Saturday or Sunday for the brickwork?

I literally have everything here now as my timber was delivered 2 days early (and so is on on a trailer as I had hoped). I can spend time tomorrow and Friday moving my timber round the back to my staging area and getting some stuff cut like the studs.

Hopefully this means I can make steady progress as I'll not be waiting for much if anything.

Of all of it I think the framing looks like the most fun!


----------



## flying haggis

Sheptonphil":zvl1x4tc said:


> flying haggis":zvl1x4tc said:
> 
> 
> 
> got any pics???
> 
> 
> 
> To save diverting the thread here, here’s a link to the =P~ foundation laying pictures there’s more out there if you use the topic as a search in google.
Click to expand...

 without hijacking this thread, concrete pours on that scale amaze me. the supply chain involved to keep the concrete coming must be enormous


----------



## MikeG.

Here's my massive pour from this afternoon:







Impressive, hey? :lol:


----------



## flying haggis

MikeG.":2ty6jipu said:


> Here's my massive pour from this afternoon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Impressive, hey? :lol:



how many pumps were on site for that?


----------



## DBT85

I assume its for a wall Mike?

A full 1.5m deep I hope! :roll: 

Apart from the pour a 50m reel of 10mm 2 core SWA arrived (I need roughly 38m, add 3 or 4 just in case and it was only an extra £3 to just buy the 50m reel. Might be a useful length left to flog). The featheredge also rocked up from one timber yard and then I arrived home from dropping the poker back to find that my actual framing timber had been delivered 2 days early, and so not onto the farm trailer which would save me lots of humping around. So tomorrows job is to move that lot onto the trailer and at least sort it into which bits I need first as it's all a muddle.






So here's pretty much as much as got troweled. As I said, its going to be covered anyway, but I'll always know that it's there.






I could have not bothered doing it and saved myself the blister and back ache, but this is what it looked like so I wanted to at least try.






Next time I'm pouring a 7.5 cube slab in my back garden I'll take some useful lessons from this one. Incidentally, I used halfa cube more than calculated and they charged me 15 mins extra wait time. Had I just poured from the truck in the first place We'd have been done in plenty of time.

Over the next 2 or 3 days I can finalise framing plans and slice some blocks and then at some point over the weekend get some bricks on, at which point things should hopefully continue at a reasonable pace.


----------



## MikeG.

That's the hard part done> =D> =D> Now you can relax and enjoy the fun of the easier stuff.


----------



## DBT85

Indeed. I'm relieved that it's over with! Forms off on Friday OK? Brick laying maybe Saturday or Sunday?


----------



## MikeG.

Pro bricklayers would start tomorrow. I'd certainly be taking the formwork off tomorrow, but bricklaying can wait until Friday or Saturday. It's worth taking the forms away relatively early because there will be little snots of concrete here and there which just need breaking off. You'll be able to do that before they get truly hard.


----------



## DBT85

Ok I'll get them off today then. Watered it already today and its still got the tarp over it. Just about big enough!

I'll leave the bricklaying just to give my hands a rest I think :lol:


----------



## DBT85

formwork off and stacked off the ground for use later, snots cleared, re waterd and covered again.

Took the time to clear some of the rest of the mess that was made :lol: 

The difference in finish between the side I manage to trowel and the one I didn't is startling.






Mostly rest now until Saturday


----------



## NickM

I know nothing about these things, but if the rough surface bothers you, could you hire a concrete grinder to flatten it off? It's probably no worthwhile if you're covering it all, but I can tell it's annoying you!

It all looks very well done to me.


----------



## DBT85

NickM":1yizrrs1 said:


> I know nothing about these things, but if the rough surface bothers you, could you hire a concrete grinder to flatten it off? It's probably no worthwhile if you're covering it all, but I can tell it's annoying you!
> 
> It all looks very well done to me.



Yeah there are options, either that or some compound to go over the top. Honestly its not worth it. Even it it wasn't getting covered it would be a fine surface to work on just as it is, it would just look funny with the colour change haha. If I could go back 36 hours I'd do a fair few things differently, but its all experience.


----------



## DBT85

Todays job was getting the trench sorted for the power and ethernet. Conduit was already installed in the slab so I just needed to dig out the remaining 9 ish meters. 

Once it was all dug out, Charles lent a hand to pull through some draw string. His nozzle was a perfectly snug fit in the conduit and I was impressed at his level of suck given a 10m run in ribbed conduit.





Drawstrings in it was time to fill it all back up again.





Mike also gave me a well earned break from digging a trench and instead brought up the trailer so that I could sort and move all the timber from the pile dumped on the driveway. It was all delivered in one bundle in a mishmash order, so now its all in bits together and easy to access.






Regarding the costs so far for anyone interested. The slab all in has run to £2064, not including the cost to dig the hole or hire costs of the dumper, costs I do not know the number of. The total projected cost is still just under £6000. So 1/3 of it went into the ground.

The breakdown is thus
10x bags Type 1 £364.20
3x bags sharp sand £154.80
1x 6x8m DPM £49
12x A142 Mesh 3.6x2m £201.45
60x Meshmen £17.28
12x 90mm Circular mesh spacers £28.80
1x pack of double loop ties £24
1x double loop tool £27
7.5m2 concrete £1055.82
formwork £106.20
stakes £24.04

I'm just finishing a little voiceover for the 5 minute video of the hole being filled then the time lapse will be available for your pleasure :roll:


----------



## MikeG.

I'm looking forward to the time-lapse. :lol: 

Do you have an account with a Builders Merchant? If you did, I think you'd be getting something of a saving on those prices. Also, if access for a lorry isn't an issue then you can get some really big savings by buying your aggregates loose rather than bagged. I've just paid £180 for 6 tonnes of ballast (and received about 7 tonnes! ) ....and that would have cost about £270 in bags.


----------



## DBT85

I don't have an account Mike, but since all the timber bar the feather edge and the ridge, plus all the aggregate and steel pretty much came from Kellaway, they did a price that seemed reasonable and beat anything else I'd seen or had quotes for.

While we do have truck access, its only over a field and plenty of companies won't even consider it for obvious reasons. I was lucky that the concrete guy was happy to do it in the end.


----------



## MikeG.

A third of the cost in the ground is bang on normal. It's pretty much always the case with any new structure.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":16nxp6ef said:


> A third of the cost in the ground is bang on normal. It's pretty much always the case with any new structure.



Yeah I figured it was fairly normal.

I hope to put all this experience to use for making a 3 car garage to essentially the same design but larger in the future, though of course that would have to be compliant with building regs as it will be larger.


----------



## DBT85

Episode 3 complete with voiceover is now available for your viewing pleasure. Everything from the type 1 going in to the first watering of the new slab.

https://youtu.be/aTXx9B3SsIQ


----------



## weekend_woodworker

Excellent time lapse video. Great progress.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AJB Temple

Very good work there. Personally I prefer to use a long handled float - knees are too creaky to do all that kneeling down on planks


----------



## DBT85

The weather is rubbish here today, on and off spitting and just now its started raining proper. Given that I'd never rolled mortar let along laid bricks, I set up a little demo to give myself a first go. Just 4 trowels of sand, 1 cement and appropriate water and febmix.

It took me the better part of 45 minutes in the end and it's not perfect, but I'm very happy with my first attempt. The rain has come just as I've finished so for now I'll head back to workshop 1 and get a jig made up to cut the blocks needed later. Hopefully the weather perks up and I can actually lay for real.

Early takeaways are: I need more mortar as its too easy to end up short in gauge and with no room to adjust if you don't put enough down in the first place.


----------



## AJB Temple

Yep, unless you are very well practised a good bricklayer will work ten times quicker. This was exactly my experience - there is a real knack to doing it at speed, and a labourer to keep the muck going helps a lot. Very good first effort. In fact very good however many efforts!


----------



## MikeG.

It's a great idea to be practising. Well done.

Firstly, 4:1 is too strong. That won't help you. You should be using around 6:1. Second, the plasticiser in the water is critical. Thirdly, building up a corner like you've done there is much, much harder than "running in" (laying bricks to a line), so as you've managed to build yourself a tidy corner you aren't going to have any trouble at all doing the bulk of the work.

Get all your ducks in a row before you mix up the mortar. Have the bond worked out (ie do you start with a header or a stretcher at any particular corner). Have your bricks stacked in place around the site (where they are handy, but not where they will get in your way). Don't mix up more than 12:2 for your first gauge, because it is going to take a time for you to get going, and you don't want it starting to go off in the mixer or barrow whilst you learn the new skill.

Bricklaying is 90% about getting the mortar right, I kid you not. If you can tap the bricks into place in a nice creamy mortar, then you are home and hosed. I suggest laying the top course frog down. This prevents rainwater sitting permanently on your plinth, and you'll also quickly discover that frog down makes accurate positioning of the brick easier. The only other piece of advice I would give is to lay out your mortar bed in such a way as there will be a little excess when you tap the brick home. This saves you trying to pack mortar in afterwards when pointing, because that is a real faff. Best to strike a little off after each brick (don't smear is across the face, though), rather than have holes that need filling.


----------



## DBT85

I only used 4:1 as it seems to be quite common for brickwork. I have enough of everything to do it that way.

I'm going to just make up enough to do the corners and do them and then go again for the next one. I've got my layout drawn out so I'll have the right bricks in the right places!

Also noted down the correct measurements for 2, 3, 4, 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5 bricks so I can check I'm getting my gaps right.

All the pointing for that little test was just using what was already in the gap. I didn't add any from the spot board to fill any gaps.

Seems to have perked up here now that I've just finished my rough and ready block jig. Typical.


----------



## MikeG.

Four to one is not common. It's plain wrong. The only time it would be right would be if laying engineering bricks (in some circumstances). It is a fundamental of bricklaying that your mortar should be weaker than your bricks. Six to one is the starting point, and indeed, is almost universal. I don't think I have ever seen anything else.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":vrpkx29x said:


> ......Seems to have perked up here now that I've just finished my rough and ready block jig. Typical.



Time to set out all your bricks, then!


----------



## Bm101

Fun fact. I used to work with a labourer who could be never remember how many times he had put a shovel of sand in the mixer so we bought him 5 black buckets and 1 yellow for the dust.  
Not suggesting for a minute you need 6 buckets :wink: but I laboured for a decent bricklayer and what I learned was precision within reason is a good thing not least for colour matching. Measure your water too on one mix. When you have it just right it's then dead simple to produce a perfect creamy mix and concentrate on your brickwork. I always found putting half the water in at the start , 2 sand then dust then the rest was fastest. You'd drop one load off, fill the mixer and leave it rolling and crack on with other work. Just my experience. Don't point till as late as possible as the joints will compress better and cause less mess. Just trowel off the internals. Careful of frost, and cover up at any sign. I know it's June but it's also _2020_ and it's hailing here as I type. 
If that's your first brickwork that's great stuff! 
Sorry don't mean to 'sucking of eggs etc' just trying to help. Get the mix right and you're half way there. Think 99 icecream. 
Build's looking great fella. Good read too.


----------



## Marineboy

I live in a Victorian house with a postage stamp of a front garden and a tiny backyard. I have no intention of ever moving, so a workshop build is something I will never undertake. However, I find these builds fascinating and follow everyone's on the forum with great enjoyment. Yours DBT85 is particularly interesting because of your time lapse videos. It's absolutely brilliant and you are to be commended for taking the time to record your progress both to help others who are contemplating similar and provide entertainment for those like me who will never pour a slab in anger. Well done mate!


----------



## DBT85

Bm101":ztaghstu said:


> Fun fact. I used to work with a labourer who could be never remember how many times he had put a shovel of sand in the mixer so we bought him 5 black buckets and 1 yellow for the dust.
> Not suggesting for a minute you need 6 buckets :wink: but I laboured for a decent bricklayer and what I learned was precision within reason is a good thing not least for colour matching. Measure your water too on one mix. When you have it just right it's then dead simple to produce a perfect creamy mix and concentrate on your brickwork. I always found putting half the water in at the start , 2 sand then dust then the rest was fastest. You'd drop one load off, fill the mixer and leave it rolling and crack on with other work. Just my experience. Don't point till as late as possible as the joints will compress better and cause less mess. Just trowel off the internals. Careful of frost, and cover up at any sign. I know it's June but it's also _2020_ and it's hailing here as I type.
> If that's your first brickwork that's great stuff!
> Sorry don't mean to 'sucking of eggs etc' just trying to help. Get the mix right and you're half way there. Think 99 icecream.
> Build's looking great fella. Good read too.



No sucking of eggs at all, its all interesting information! I can barely polish off one bucket let alone 6!



Marineboy":ztaghstu said:


> I live in a Victorian house with a postage stamp of a front garden and a tiny backyard. I have no intention of ever moving, so a workshop build is something I will never undertake. However, I find these builds fascinating and follow everyone's on the forum with great enjoyment. Yours DBT85 is particularly interesting because of your time lapse videos. It's absolutely brilliant and you are to be commended for taking the time to record your progress both to help others who are contemplating similar and provide entertainment for those like me who will never pour a slab in anger. Well done mate!


Thanks! I lived vicariously for nearly 5 years with the hope of one day getting to this point, so it's nice to be able to help others in the same way. The videos are a nice little extra and are interesting to watch as I sit there scratching my buttocks working out what to do next!


----------



## DBT85

The weather abated and so I set out my corners and marked out what needed to be where, got my spot board in place and got mixing. I went with 6:1 in the end for fear of death from above. I'm literally only mixing up a bucket at a time as I can barely get to the end of it before its started to stiffen despite being a lovely texture to start.

Just as I was about to mix up the first batch it started to spit with rain, I cursed in the direction of the sky and it stopped. I managed to get 2 full corners and the first 3 bricks of the third complete before packing up time. Time to assume parental responsibilities for the first time since 10am.

I did at least also get a little jig made up for the blocks to make cutting them easy enough.

If the weather behaves tomorrow then I'll get my corners finished and my two stopped ends for the doorway.

Not perfect at all, but it will suffice. I did find putting the top course on frog down harder than expected!


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## MikeG.

Excellent! =D> =D> Looks great. That's the hard part just about done. Running in to a line is a doddle in comparison.


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## Sheptonphil

Excellent progress, my bricklaying is also painful, but those corners look tidy. =D> 

This will now become an all consuming project, thoughts Watching TV, dropping off to sleep thinking the next step, you tube videos for building practices like watching porn. The garden going to the dogs because there’s the next bit that needs doing before the rain/wind/sun comes in case it ruins the build. You’ll be the master of excuses before long.


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## AJB Temple

Very good. A lot better than I managed at my first attempt. Or my third attempt for that matter. 

Enjoying seeing your work. 

Adrian


----------



## Bm101

I'll shut up in a minute (sorry)but don't forget to run your strings _exactly_ to the top of the course. I'd crack on with a course or two then build your corners up in stages and check your levels all the time. I'd run in from either end too and meet in the middle. Once you know, you can stagger any half cuts and keep your bond pattern.
I'll be quiet now. Soz.


----------



## DBT85

A good day so far, though my back would disagree. 

All corners and stop ends completed, and I've done my first running in. I also managed to leave the camera on normal mode and not time lapse, so I have a LOT of video to go through for Episode 4. Fixednow for the running in which is much easier and faster too. 

I've also actually been measuring my mortar out by volume so now I know exactly how much water and febmix, and each batch (still one bucket at a time) is consistent.

Not satisfied with laying 300 bricks, my mind has already started building a trolley capable of covering unpaved ground capable of carrying 400kg loads, for when machinery one day arrives.

Corners complete and first running in complete





Stacked up ready for one long back side.







Sheptonphil":1v6fj8al said:


> Excellent progress, my bricklaying is also painful, but those corners look tidy. =D>
> 
> This will now become an all consuming project, thoughts Watching TV, dropping off to sleep thinking the next step, you tube videos for building practices like watching porn. The garden going to the dogs because there’s the next bit that needs doing before the rain/wind/sun comes in case it ruins the build. You’ll be the master of excuses before long.


I was dreaming about bricklaying, no joke.



Bm101":1v6fj8al said:


> I'll shut up in a minute (sorry)but don't forget to run your strings _exactly_ to the top of the course. I'd crack on with a course or two then build your corners up in stages and check your levels all the time. I'd run in from either end too and meet in the middle. Once you know, you can stagger any half cuts and keep your bond pattern.
> I'll be quiet now. Soz.



All good advice, a little too late, though maybe not all relevant as its only 3 courses high anyway. 

Keep it coming!


----------



## flying haggis

if that is a first attempt at bricklaying, that is rather good


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## DBT85

Thanks Haggis. It is indeed my first attempt. I've used a bit of mortar before for the odd job but nothing more than a half bucket and never once to set a brick on. Now I need a brick BBQ 8). Though in all seriousness that and a little well to go around the pit in the front garden (a brick pit probably 100 years old, but not deep enough to be a well) would be nice. Not like I have any other jobs to finish before planning new ones.

Anyway, a good day in the end. I deigned to stop at 5:20 when my mortar ran out just 2 bricks shy of finishing the first course on the long side. Only just pointed it.

The door side has all of its bricks complete. tada. Didn't need to cut any apart from the single half bat at the stop end. Juuuuust about made it fit. My perp sizes need work.





2 bricks shy of the end, but the important part is that those 2 bricks are going to fit! I checked.





Tomorrow I'll unleash the mixer we have here and hopefully finish off the bricks. Now that I'm only laying to the line and am more comfortable, I don't mind making up a larger batch to use.

I still need some treatment for the cut ends of timber. It doesn't seem as easy to find as I expected. Either that or things aren't clear that they are what I need. Hopefully I can start the wood butchering on Wednesday.


----------



## MikeG.

You can just add water to a gauge that is starting to go off, then fluff it up a bit with a shovel or trowel. You don't want to do that too many times, but you'll always see brickies splashing water on their muck boards and flipping the muck around a few times to revive it a bit.


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## DBT85

Yeah I've done it a little. I've also been watering my spot board before loading up to try and prevent it sucking up too much moisture.


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## Lons

MikeG.":2zfl5wa6 said:


> You can just add water to a gauge that is starting to go off, then fluff it up a bit with a shovel or trowel. You don't want to do that too many times, but you'll always see brickies splashing water on their muck boards and flipping the muck around a few times to revive it a bit.


Yep you can keep it going a long time it just gets harder to use, not a problem for the experienced but not recommended for a newbie. You should be working it slightly every few trowel fulls anyway as you go, it comes automatically when you've laid a few thousand. :lol: 

Very neat work BTW =D>


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## MikeG.

You're reaping the rewards now, DBT85, of having supported your formwork so well. The edge of the concrete is making a really neat junction with the brickwork, showing that it's straight (and in the right place).


----------



## Bm101

Mike has it right. And when Lons is on your side _as well_, you're doing a proper job. =D> 
The 6 P's.
Proper Preparation Prevents P*ss Poor Performance. (hammer)


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## DBT85

Got to stop by the hire shop today, what flavour nails will I need for the framework? 90mm ring shank?


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## MikeG.

Are you nailing manually (ie without a nail gun?). If so, then 4" hot-dipped galvanised is traditional, and probably a load cheaper than the ring shanked nails. Certainly experiment with a pilot hole for those nails near the ends of plates.


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## AJB Temple

You will save yourself a lot of arm ache if you have access to a first fix nail gun. That said, I nail by hand for fencing and garden stuff, though I do use a second fix gun quite a lot. 

Excellent brickwork. You have inspired me to have another go!


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## MikeG.

I built a couple of houses nailing by hand. (I sawed the timbers by hand, too!). Then I bought a nail gun, and the difference is huge. The big thing for me was that with a nail gun you line the timbers up and then pull a trigger. The timbers stay together in the same location as when you lined them up. With a hammer, every time you hit the nail, the timbers move, so lining up studs, particularly at a corner, was a real faff.

These days, if I didn't have a nail gun I'd probably screw framing. Screws are much more expensive than nails, but not as expensive as hiring or buying a compressor and a nail gun. Reisser Cutter-type screws which drill their own hole, 80 or 90mm long, and a decent cordless driver with 2 good batteries and a pack of spare bits........


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## Lons

Exactly what AJB and Mike said.

I was using my gun on Saturday to put up fencing even though I have large boxes of ordinary galvs. 90mm for the rails and 50mm for the boards all galv r/s. Another bonus apart from accurate positioning is that the nails are less likely to spit the wood.

My original Paslode 350 was pretty good and fired many thousands of nails but tbh it was a pain having to constantly clean the darn thing as well as being temperamental in cold weather, I also found it sometimes had a hissy fit if I used non Paslode but much cheaper nails the replacement DeWalt 18v is superb and does everything I ask of it and with any brand nails of the right type.

It's a great excuse to buy one especially if you think ahead to potential other jobs and the time you could save.


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## Sheptonphil

I bought a paslode 350 just for the build and I will sell it afterwards. I have used it at every stage and on a built like this I think it’s going to be hard work And a lot less accurate without one. 

I used 90mm for the framing, 51mm to fix the OSB (every six inches is a LOT of nails), 63mm to add the counter battens and all the roofing battens.

You not only have the benefit of instant fix with a single pull, the noise is less intrusive, one bang instead of five or six for each nail, You’re not smashing the framework about with every strike. 

As your build may be two or three months and you cam really do with it on hand the whole time, it will be horrendously expensive for two months hire. A gas gun means no air lines to drag around and no compressor. Dewalt also make an 18v one I considered. 63mm nails are £36 for 3300 inc three gas canisters. 

As a guide, I’ve used approx 1100 X 51mm, 1900 X 63mm and 2000 x 90mm

I don’t regret the investment, and will get most of it back when I sell.


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## AJB Temple

I 100% agree with Mike re using screws. I also use Reisser (bought in trade quantities) and pop them in with a driver. I also use Timberfix bolts a lot, again driven in with a driver and hex bolt thing which usually comes with a box of bolts. I will always do this in preference to nails in buildings as I think it a) does a better job and b) is reversible. 

I have a DeWalt pair of electric mail guns, first and second fix. Unfortunately first fix has resided with No 1 offspring for the past year. Both are very good. I used to have paslode too, but it was stolen and I went electric after that. The batteries will drive a LOT of nails.


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## Chunky Monkey

I stopped using Reisser Cutter screws on outdoor projects as I found they rusted heavily then the heads would snap off if I was to ever need to remove the screw.

Obviously not a problem inside a workshop build.

Jon


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## AJB Temple

Not had that issue so far but as I said I mainly use Timberfix on buildings. Did you find something better instead Chunky Monkey?


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## Sheptonphil

AJB Temple":9hrdlrhl said:


> I 100% agree with Mike re using screws. I also use Reisser (bought in trade quantities) and pop them in with a driver. I also use Timberfix bolts a lot, again driven in with a driver and hex bolt thing which usually comes with a box of bolts. I will always do this in preference to nails in buildings as I think it a) does a better job and b) is reversible.


I also used a lot of hex head timber screws for assembly of the panels and brackets, too expensive to use as a construction method for framing, but they would be no good for the OSB, nails are perfect, and gun driven ones at that. There will also be the cladding, I will use 500-600 51mm ones on that, paslode to the rescue again.

As you know, the ring shank don’t like being pulled out, so make for a really strong frame construction.


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## DBT85

Oh chaps I'll definitely be using a gun and not a hammer (hammer) .

I'm all about taking on absurd projects that make me learn loads of new skills and cost me thousands of pounds, but I'm not crazy enough to frame it with a hammer!

I've told the hire place I want one for Thursday, but I could well buy one as sheptonphil did. It was something I thought about before though I'd have no idea which to get. The plan was to get the bulk of the 90mm nails in in a weeks hire (hire costs come out of someone elses pocket!), but there are a lot of battens and OSB to bang up too so buying one might be prudent for now. What one did you get Phil?

If I'm using a gun, is there a flavour of nail I want or are all the 90mm first fix gun nails basically the same thing?

Anyway, brickwork was undertaken...eventually. I had to spend a hour trying to find the bolt cutters to release it from it's prison on the farm. I found them right where I left them (and was SURE I hadn't left them) by the farm gate when I opened it up to allow the concrete mixer into the field.

Once carted up and got going it seemed to go ok, though it's rather large for the batches I'm making up, but they did seem to last better and work better. My 6kg of cement and appropriate sand seemed a little lost inside, despite being triple my bucket mix. I was at least able to get some going before I broke for lunch and again while finishing the last of that batch off, so less time was lost arsing about.

150 odd laid today in the end, less than I'd hoped and as always 1 brick left as the mortar ran out (though had I not chucked 1/4 a load on the floor trying to pour it out of the mixer...). My perps were all over the place and I had to cut 10mm off a brick to make a course fit in the end. I'm going to have to do the same to the one that remains in that same wall. I'm going to blame the bricks being 216mm instead of the standard 215mm, instead of my ineptitude.

To make matters worse, the second course on the window side started out fine, but because I knew I had to make some snug perps at the far end of the first course, I started doing it early. It wasn't long before I'm no longer close to a proper stretcher bond. Mike, if he'd been daft enough to have done it would likely have ripped them out. My body burning in pain and annoyance made me just carry on. While being appropriately annoyed I glanced over at the other side completed this morning and noticed that 2 sodding bricks are face side in! 

Fortunately its on the back side of the shop, and will perhaps one day get covered by a DX cabinet should I get around to it.

Tomorrow I can start a bit earlier as I no longer need to locate some bolt cutters. I have about 50 bricks to do and then 21 blocks to cleft in twain and then try and do those too. 

I still need to buy some cut end treatment and I'm also not looking forward to trying to bed 2 7m long bits of 4x2 onto a DPC and some mortar.

Just the one pic today







FUUUUUU I've just noticed a third brick. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1d29yjpn said:


> Oh chaps I'll definitely be using a gun and not a hammer (hammer) .
> 
> I'm all about taking on absurd projects that make me learn loads of new skills and cost me thousands of pounds, but I'm not crazy enough to frame it with a hammer!
> 
> I've told the hire place I want one for Thursday, but I could well buy one as sheptonphil did. It was something I thought about before though I'd have no idea which to get. The plan was to get the bulk of the 90mm nails in in a weeks hire (hire costs come out of someone elses pocket!), but there are a lot of battens and OSB to bang up too so buying one might be prudent for now. What one did you get Phil?


I bought a new Paslode 350i from eBay for £350. New they are usually£450+ so I think I can sell it for £300+ after I finish with it. I get the quickload nail packs from Supafixings, or same company on eBay if easier. All nails I use here are ring shank galvanised, and just about all the first fix guns use the same nails. I bought a 1100 pack of each to start with, but soon realised a 3300 pack is the way to go. Had I not got the bargain, I think I would have got the Dewalt battery one as all my cordless are Dewalt so would only need a bare unit. 

You will find you will be constantly using it. (or wanting to use it if you haven’t got one on site). Framing, sheathing, counter battens, roof battens, cladding, door linings, are spread over the build time. If someone else is picking the hire tab up, that is the cheapest option for you, hire it for a couple of months. 

The walls look superb, a brilliant first outing with a trowel. You know you’re going to knock those three bricks out don’t you? They will always be there, looking at you, smiling.

I’ve got to ask, why are you putting another 50mm of block internally? The stud walls are built onto the bricks aren’t they?


----------



## DBT85

Oh the third one is definitely coming out. The other two can stay.

Yhe idea for the block is to set the studs back a fraction meaning that the cladding comes down and sits nicely on the brickwork rather than sticking out over it by 50mm or so.

I did look at the dewalt this evening but I have none of their kit, not that that would be a major issue of course. I guess it might be sensible.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1dzjhi5t said:


> Oh the third one is definitely coming out. The other two can stay.
> 
> Yhe idea for the block is to set the studs back a fraction meaning that the cladding comes down and sits nicely on the brickwork rather than sticking out over it by 50mm or so.
> 
> I did look at the dewalt this evening but I have none of their kit, not that that would be a major issue of course. I guess it might be sensible.



Ah, the blocks make sense now.

If you haven’t already got Dewalt kit, you need to get one with a battery (or two) and a charger. Bare units have neither.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":31kikndc said:


> .......... I'm also not looking forward to trying to bed 2 7m long bits of 4x2 onto a DPC and some mortar........



Why not? It's a doddle of a job. You staple the dpc to the underside of the 4x2, lay out your mortar bed, sit the wood on there, and start tapping until it's level. Your choice as to whether you house out for straps before or after, but if you do it before you can fasten the plates down immediately and leave it alone until you come to erect the frames. You can butt joint the the loins, or have a little play with scarf joints.


----------



## owen

DBT85":23xo6uag said:


> Oh the third one is definitely coming out. The other two can stay.
> 
> Yhe idea for the block is to set the studs back a fraction meaning that the cladding comes down and sits nicely on the brickwork rather than sticking out over it by 50mm or so.
> 
> I did look at the dewalt this evening but I have none of their kit, not that that would be a major issue of course. I guess it might be sensible.



Buy the kit of two nailers two batteries and a charger, Roughly 550 quid but they're really good. You can use the brad mailer then for architraves and trims etc too plus you'll get a good resale value. 
If you don't want to get a nailer, Timco screws are really good, and a lot cheaper than reisser/spax. It's not too much slower doing it with an impact driver compared to a nailer and definitely easier to be accurate.


----------



## owen

MikeG.":196lfgke said:


> DBT85":196lfgke said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......... I'm also not looking forward to trying to bed 2 7m long bits of 4x2 onto a DPC and some mortar........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? It's a doddle of a job. You staple the dpc to the underside of the 4x2, lay out your mortar bed, sit the wood on there, and start tapping until it's level. Your choice as to whether you house out for straps before or after, but if you do it before you can fasten the plates down immediately and leave it alone until you come to erect the frames. You can butt joint the the loins, or have a little play with scarf joints.
Click to expand...


Assuming you mean butt joint the wall plates, you would use half laps surely?


----------



## DBT85

I had a look at the dewalt 18v one last night. £440 for it the box and 2 5ah batteries. 

Talking it over with father in law as to whether we buy it to sell it when. I'm done or buy a cheaper one to just keep.

I don't have the funds to just buy one to keep and oddly we don't have a compressor here. Though I'd prefer to work without the hose anyway.


----------



## MikeG.

owen":15t1besn said:


> ........Assuming you mean butt joint the wall plates, you would use half laps surely?



Yep, or any other type of scarf you fancy. But you can just butt them if you want, but then you must make sure that the frames you sit on them later have their join in a different location.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah if I butt joint then the frame join would be at the other end.


----------



## Lons

DBT85":6mu0409s said:


> I had a look at the dewalt 18v one last night. £440 for it the box and 2 5ah batteries.
> 
> Talking it over with father in law as to whether we buy it to sell it when. I'm done or buy a cheaper one to just keep.
> 
> I don't have the funds to just buy one to keep and oddly we don't have a compressor here. Though I'd prefer to work without the hose anyway.


My mate has been doing a lot of fencing after his main business activities took a nosedive and he managed to pick up a decent used one on Facebook marketplace a couple of months ago, only had one battery but he paid £90 for the gun and got a couple of extra 5amp generic batteries off ebay, can't remember what he paid for those but he said they were cheap and work very well.

If you buy one you won't want to sell it on later though :lol:


----------



## DBT85

Mike, just a quick one, if I was studding out the inside of a single skin brick garage, so I need anything between the studs and the brick?


Work continues. I have 9 bricks left to lay before I start the blocks, so rather than mixing up a batch and having some left I'm just cutting all the blocks. I do wish I'd been given the 3nm ones I asked for as these 6nm ones are a little work to cut, but I have just 15 to go. Sadly my bandsaw is 2cm too short to deal with them rather more quickly.


----------



## DBT85

Depwalt nailer will be here tomorrow. £440 inc vat and we'll sell it when I'm done. £100 of nails on the way too.

Right, back to cutting the blocks...The bricks are not getting finished today I feel.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":sq73qdra said:


> Depwalt nailer will be here tomorrow. £440 inc vat and we'll sell it when I'm done.



Oh no you won’t! 

The pain of buying it will ease, and the need to sell will no longer be a need.  

You’ll think of the bit of fencing to be done later, the summer house, FIL’s surely got something that needs nailing.


----------



## DBT85

Whoever said just chop those 100mm blocks in half needs a dry slap. It's killing me and they still aren't all done.


Sheptonphil":2zqezkn0 said:


> DBT85":2zqezkn0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depwalt nailer will be here tomorrow. £440 inc vat and we'll sell it when I'm done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no you won’t!
> 
> The pain of buying it will ease, and the need to sell will no longer be a need.
> 
> You’ll think of the bit of fencing to be done later, the summer house, FIL’s surely got something that needs nailing.
Click to expand...

Ha, in my 20odd years of DIY jobs I've never needed one and he can't think of a time he's needed one either. But if we find uses while it's here then we'll keep it.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":3scds922 said:


> Mike, just a quick one, if I was studding out the inside of a single skin brick garage, so I need anything between the studs and the brick?.....



No. You must have a vapour barrier on the inside (warm) face of the wall, though. OSB, foil backed plasterboard, something like that.


----------



## DBT85

It felt like a slower day today despite getting out earlier. 

I chopped those three bricks out and turned them around. It was surprisingly easy to saw the mortar out and a light tap with the lump hammer and off they popped. 

After that I got the mixer going and in what felt like fairly short order used up the last of my mix. It was probably nearly 11:30 by then but it felt smooth and "easy" to lay a whopping 43 bricks. Not wanting to mix up another batch and have some left over, I decided that next I'd cut up the 100mm Quinnlite B5 blocks ready for the inner skin.

I did a couple and then took the kid off my wifes hands for an hour and popped to B&Q to pick up my tin of end grain treatment. Lunch occurred and then I went back at it. I'm still not firkin finished. Probably another 7 or 8 to cut. 

I was interrupted by father in law to talk about the nailer situation and we agreed to buy one and sell it on afterwards if we don't feel the need to keep it around. Even if we only got £300 for it its still less than the hire for a month and this way I can just use it as I need it.

That was all she wrote for today. These blocks are a pain and I'll be glad when they are finished. I hope (pray) to get them cut then mix up a batch and get the last 11 bricks and then these blocks all laid tomorrow so that I can start getting the plates down on Thursday. 

Soon I shall stop posting pics of just bricks and concrete. I promise.

In the meantime I want to double check my framing details and things like stud heights. Oh and I measured my outer brick to outer brick on the short sides (I can't recall why). Both are exactly 4719mm. They were supposed to be 4715mm. I have failed.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":xqln03yx said:


> ........I measured my outer brick to outer brick on the short sides ....... Both are exactly (_the same_).........


_My italics._ 

That's all that counts.


----------



## MikeG.

Laying those blocks is a different skill. You won't succeed if you try to fully load the inner face of the block with mortar. You're better off with vertical beads only, then pointing up the gaps afterwards. Don't tap them too vigorously into place, as they'll snap readily. If any won't got down far enough to get level, leave them in place and cut them off level the following day. You might want a slightly sloppier mortar than you used for the brickwork. Saying all that, they're so much quicker than bricks. You'll have that lot done by lunch tomorrow.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":3g7l2edn said:


> Laying those blocks is a different skill. You won't succeed if you try to fully load the inner face of the block with mortar. You're better off with vertical beads only, then pointing up the gaps afterwards. Don't tap them too vigorously into place, as they'll snap readily. If any won't got down far enough to get level, leave them in place and cut them off level the following day. You might want a slightly sloppier mortar than you used for the brickwork. Sating all that, they're so much quicker than bricks. You'll have that lot done by lunch tomorrow.



HAHAHAHA done by lunch he says.

Yeah I saw you post about buttering the inner face, wasn't even going to try. Bed down on the floor and butter the ends. laying them will be measurably faster than cutting the things.


----------



## DBT85

The blocks are cut, seems the saw had lost its set.

The galv straps have to go on the brick and under the block, yes? I do hope my drill doesn't dislodge my bricks!

EDIt: never mind, I see you originally intended to put them into the concrete but youjr drill ran out of guys. I have an SDS for just such an eventuality.


----------



## MikeG.

You can just screw the straps to the face of the blockwork. It doesn't need to be screwed to the concrete.


----------



## DBT85

Too late.

Done by lunchtime you said.

I've just finished the door wall blocks. Only 19m of them left to do. I now have a method.

I have no idea why I said 19 to do. More like 40.


----------



## DBT85

Five and a half hours later the remaining 40 ish blocks are in place.

My knees and back are in pain but its done. There are no more blocks or bricks to lay. Maybe just a little pointing here and there.

As always I ran out of mortar with just 4 left to go so my last mix of the day was in a bucket.






Also this arrived in a hilariously oversized carry case


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":3q4og0l6 said:


> Five and a half hours later the remaining 40 ish blocks are in place...........



Just as I told you.  7.30 start, done for lunch. =D> =D>


----------



## Sheptonphil

I think there’s many professional brickies who would be proud to put their name to that job. Looks blooming marvellous. 

That’s the easy bit done, physically, the next lot will be like a good workout at the gym.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":3bvh3y5r said:


> I think there’s many professional brickies who would be proud to put their name to that job. Looks blooming marvellous.
> 
> That’s the easy bit done, physically, the next lot will be like a good workout at the gym.


Oh there are certainly people that get paid to do it that would claim it. If I'd paid someone to do it I'd be very upset as it's all over the shop! Ha.

I also checked my diagonals from brick to brick. I'm 10mm out. I'm doomed.


----------



## flying haggis

10mm out!! take it down and redo it!!! just kidding, looks bl**dy good to me. well done.


----------



## gerard b

Looking great. Is that a framing nailer I see in the box. I’ve been browsing for one myself the last couple of days but struggling to find a decent second hand one. They’re very pricey new if you’ve not already got batteries and a charger.


----------



## sammy.se

Looks great, well done!! 

I tried a cordless framing nailer at the recent FFX tool show. What fun! Especially the bump mode.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks chaps! Quieter day today as I have some grass to get mown and a wasps nest to deal with. Hopefully I'll get those soles bedded and strapped today though.


gerard b":2dww5t6z said:


> Looking great. Is that a framing nailer I see in the box. I’ve been browsing for one myself the last couple of days but struggling to find a decent second hand one. They’re very pricey new if you’ve not already got batteries and a charger.


Yeah we got it new with the plan to sell it when I'm done. The hire shop we use has already expressed interest so we shall see. I got it from ITS for £440 and it was delivered less than 24 hours after ordering.


----------



## Lons

DBT85":2chvaacc said:


> gerard b":2chvaacc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking great. Is that a framing nailer I see in the box. I’ve been browsing for one myself the last couple of days but struggling to find a decent second hand one. They’re very pricey new if you’ve not already got batteries and a charger.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah we got it new with the plan to sell it when I'm done. The hire shop we use has already expressed interest so we shall see. I got it from ITS for £440 and it was delivered less than 24 hours after ordering.
Click to expand...

You'll love it. One of the features I like is the anti jam lever. You'll occasionally get a jammed nail, happened a lot on the Paslode especially if using other brand nails, much less on the DeWalt but if it does it's just a flick of the lever to clear.
Strange they've given you a universal case as the proper case is much better, unless it's been changed.

I was very lucky as I was offered one of the first evaluation models to review and allowed to keep it


----------



## DBT85

Lons":3vqbkugk said:


> DBT85":3vqbkugk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gerard b":3vqbkugk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking great. Is that a framing nailer I see in the box. I’ve been browsing for one myself the last couple of days but struggling to find a decent second hand one. They’re very pricey new if you’ve not already got batteries and a charger.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah we got it new with the plan to sell it when I'm done. The hire shop we use has already expressed interest so we shall see. I got it from ITS for £440 and it was delivered less than 24 hours after ordering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You'll love it. One of the features I like is the anti jam lever. You'll occasionally get a jammed nail, happened a lot on the Paslode especially if using other brand nails, much less on the DeWalt but if it does it's just a flick of the lever to clear.
> Strange they've given you a universal case as the proper case is much better, unless it's been changed.
> 
> I was very lucky as I was offered one of the first evaluation models to review and allowed to keep it
Click to expand...

Very nice! This is just the one it comes with I think when you get it with the charger and 2 batteries. Maybe not. It'll be useful for someone that actually wants the second fix gun too.


----------



## gerard b

DBT85":11j8wyfz said:


> Thanks chaps! Quieter day today as I have some grass to get mown and a wasps nest to deal with. Hopefully I'll get those soles bedded and strapped today though.
> 
> 
> gerard b":11j8wyfz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking great. Is that a framing nailer I see in the box. I’ve been browsing for one myself the last couple of days but struggling to find a decent second hand one. They’re very pricey new if you’ve not already got batteries and a charger.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah we got it new with the plan to sell it when I'm done. The hire shop we use has already expressed interest so we shall see. I got it from ITS for £440 and it was delivered less than 24 hours after ordering.
Click to expand...


What model is it, DCN692P2? I'm in Ireland and the best price I can see for one new is 685euro (around £610), that's with two 5Ah batteries and the charger.


----------



## DBT85

gerard b":5yuz7xgo said:


> What model is it, DCN692P2? I'm in Ireland and the best price I can see for one new is 685euro (around £610), that's with two 5Ah batteries and the charger.



Yep that's the one. ITS won't ship to ROI but FFX do and they want £440 for it. ITS only actually charged us £432. I think FFX want about £30 for delivery to ROI?

Or you can wait 2 months and buy this one from me :lol: 

Box, 2x 5ah batteries and the charger.


----------



## gerard b

Lol, I hope to be finished with it myself by then. That is a super price at FFX but they are saying delivery by 1st July, 3 weeks, I'm not waiting that long. Have you tried it out yet? Let us know what you think.


----------



## owen

gerard b":11tuh4x4 said:


> Lol, I hope to be finished with it myself by then. That is a super price at FFX but they are saying delivery by 1st July, 3 weeks, I'm not waiting that long. Have you tried it out yet? Let us know what you think.



They're brilliant. A 4ah battery nearly lasts all day when nailing roofing battens all day so for normal work they'll easily last a day. They're heavy, you know if you've been swinging one about all day. I've had one jammed nail the other day that took me undoing two Allen screws to get it out but it was literally 5 mins downtime. I must have fired roughly 15k nails with mine and apart from that one nail it's been perfect. I've used all brands of nails too even the cheap ones work fine.


----------



## DBT85

Well the weather here is rubbish today, I just about managed to sort the grass as it had been many weeks and much of it is field grass not lawn grass. The wasps nest seems to have been dealt with also, hurrah.

Before I can get chopping anything up I need another sawhorse. I have one kicking around for some reason so I'll make it a sibling and I can use some of the formwork timbers as a benchtop for my mitre saw. I also need to finish tinkering with the plans and be sure of my dimensions! The plates will naturally be cut to the size required on my actual build, but I don't want my studs too long as otherwise I'll end up over the 2.5m eaves height rule.




gerard b":2gjtsg3p said:


> Lol, I hope to be finished with it myself by then. That is a super price at FFX but they are saying delivery by 1st July, 3 weeks, I'm not waiting that long. Have you tried it out yet? Let us know what you think.


I am as yet without nails so its not done anything yet.

FFX were just one of a few places that had them. try https://www.powertoolworld.co.uk/dewalt ... x-batt-5ah

Another option might be the Hikoki one. It's also battery only but it makes its own compressed air to help drive them home. The quick look I had at a video last night it did a good job and buried the 90mm ring shanks while the dewalt they had was sinking them flush.


----------



## DBT85

I really like Fusion, but how can it be that Sketchup has a better bloody measure tool than it for this purpose. Fortunately I've calculated it all anyway but it would be nice to just be able to click a point and it to measure a distance on the same plane. Eugh.

Stud lengths will be 1900mm. 

This allows for the 235mm plinth + bedding mortar under the DPC, 118mm from the top of the top plate to the top of the rafter and an overall 2035mm frame height based on top plate, sole plate and _other_ sole plate.

That brings the top of my rafters up to 2388mm, plus 50mm for the slightly exposed slab (I'll actually need to lower the far corner a little to do that so there is wiggle room).

So 2438mm, plus battens and tiles should being me in under the 2.5m eaves height. My calcs are based on the face of the stud and not the face of the cladding, which would actually bring the intersection of top of roof and wall down a little further.

Mike why am I wrong.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":2k81n54j said:


> ........Mike why am I wrong.........



Relying on your figures (ie without drawing it myself) I can't see anything wrong there. 

For the sake of other people following along, the eaves height in use in Planning isn't the edge of the roof, but the notional point of intersection between the plane of the wall and the top of the roof covering. In other words, if someone came along with a giant trimming router and trimmed the edge of the roof off flush with the face of the wall, the eaves height (in planning terms) would be the top edge of the resulting vertical face.


----------



## gerard b

Well I went for it and bought from power tool world, should have it mid next week hopefully.

Anyway sorry for hijacking your thread, concrete was poured today on my own build, I'll post a photo on the thread i started for mine. Thanks again.


----------



## DBT85

No problem Gerard! I shall have a look see at your thread.

Anyway, an easier day today as I said, lawns mowed, numbers checked, back and knees given a slightly easier time.

Saw bench made up from formwork, work support added and the 6 pieces I need for bedding onto the mortar are cut, strap housings routed out and it all treated with cut end protector. I even cut one of the sole plates.

Naturally it took longer to find my safety glasses than it did to actually route out the housings.

Tomorrow morning I'll cut some folding wedges (I wonder if I can use the ones from making up the stakes?), nail the DPC onto the bottom of these and get some mortar made up to get them bedded down.

Video of the brickwork hasn't even been started yet but I'll get there!


----------



## Fil

Forgive me if youve covered it already, but with the 4" with sole plate leaving the 2" or so of brick sticking out in the elements, wont water sit on this and eventually cause damp issues?

As even with 1" stud work and cladding the brick edge will still stick out? Unless yor classing 2" thick?


----------



## DBT85

I realise I may have to redo those plates that cover the door end and it's opposite. I've not half lapped them to the sides and the actual sole plate that will sit on it will be about the same length as those plates so there is no overlap like there will be on the long sides. 

Am I worrying about nothing?



Fil":uds36lim said:


> Forgive me if youve covered it already, but with the 4" with sole plate leaving the 2" or so of brick sticking out in the elements, wont water sit on this and eventually cause damp issues?
> 
> As even with 1" stud work and cladding the brick edge will still stick out? Unless yor classing 2" thick?


No problem at all! 

The bottom FE board kicks out slightly to take its leading edge beyond the edge of the brickwork.

As seen on Mikes


----------



## Fil

Nice, that makes sense to me now


----------



## DBT85

Mike, on this subject..

I realise I may have to redo those plates that cover the door end and it's opposite. I've not half lapped them to the sides and the actual sole plate that will sit on it will be about the same length as those plates so there is no overlap like there will be on the long sides. 

Am I worrying about nothing?


----------



## Lons

DBT85":3e8nyke2 said:


> Another option might be the Hikoki one. It's also battery only but it makes its own compressed air to help drive them home. The quick look I had at a video last night it did a good job and buried the 90mm ring shanks while the dewalt they had was sinking them flush.



My DeWalt easily sinks the nail heads so they might have had the adjustment pressure knob on the nose turned down, it's a useful feature. My gun is only single speed so I don't know what advantage the newer 2 speed gun has. 

Good point about the box re a second fix gun, hadn't thought about that but makes sense as you can buy them as a set so might have standardised the box. I have that box as well as when I was given the gun the lad said they didn't yet have a purpose made box and they sent that on to me later.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":1prmojxg said:


> ......Am I worrying about nothing?



Yep, relax. There are no forces on the walls pushing them apart at the bottom. The force the half-lap resists here is twisting, and with the weight of the workshop on them they will stay exactly where they were put. Just make sure you get a fixing in low down between the end studs of the end frames and the long-side frames. Bear in mind that I didn't have the first plate (I did when I built the house, but not the workshop), and that the panels struggle to have a half-lapped corner plate.

The other slight advantage of having a half lap at the corners is that the lower plates will be less inclined to get out of position as you manhandle the big frames on top of them. For this reason you might consider taking a bit of strapping and fixing it around the corners on the vertical outside faces of the plates, tying them together. You can remove this later if it's in the way, or leave it if it isn't.


----------



## DBT85

Fair enough, I have strapping left.

I'm going of fly the osb past the end of the short sides like you did, so I'll be sure to get plenty of fixings in all over.

Hopefully by the end of tomorrow I'll have them all bedded and at least materials cut for frames.


----------



## Westwood

Thoroughly enjoying this thread, thank you DBT especially for the detailed explanations and photos
I only have a single car garage to play in and no interest in building a new workshop but am totally fascinated by all the steps you're going through especially the "learning how to do something yourself" for the first time jobs.
My point in posting: nothing really other than to say you've fast become my daily read over a morning coffee or evening tipple....and I'll be interested to see how you use one or two tools such as a mitre saw that I'm considering
Looking forward to reading more over the coming weeks.....


----------



## DBT85

Thanks!

Mitre saw will get some use later today hopefully as I cut up my framework to size. Mines just a cheap Makita but I also have an even cheaper Evolution sliding one that does fine for jobs like this.

I got the bulk of the edit done for the bricks last night so just need to record a VO. I saved you all the pain of watching me do all of it by cutting out a bunch. The camera randomly turning off also helps there!


----------



## DBT85

Well the plates are mortared down with DPC stapled to the underside. This was the first bit that actually went easier than I expected.

Like Mike have have used wider DPC so that it can roll back up and over an arris and up the studs behind the cladding.







A break for lunch and then I can chop up 45 odd studs to length.


----------



## DBT85

After a tasty jacket spud and a bit of a tidy up I got the straps screwed down and started cutting up my framework. 43 studs to 1900mm, 3 more plates to 4361mm.

I have realised though that I have my first materials shortage. I made my cut list before finishing my plans for windows and obviously windows need more timber than just plain walls.  

So I have enough to complete 3 walls, just not the more complicated wall with the windows in. I need 5x 3m lengths so not the end of the world but an annoyance. I'll go get some first thing tomorrow if I can. Annoyingly Travis are closed and I have a suspicion my timber yard will want to book me in for a collection. When I try and use their brand new website it wants me to collect in about 3 weeks!

Tish and pish.

A slightly earlier finish today as apparently I do have a family that likes to see me.


----------



## DBT85

Time lapse Part 4 is complete and live. To the 76 of you that watched (I shant say enjoyed!) Part 3, thanks for the views!

Workshop P4 - Brick & Block
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHBFYrWCnSI


----------



## Bm101

I missed the videos somehow. Nice! Just watched the above one. Are you left handed? It's interesting you lay the blocks in from right to left. Just wondering!


----------



## DBT85

Bm101":3ljxsctg said:


> I missed the videos somehow. Nice! Just watched the above one. Are you left handed? It's interesting you lay the blocks in from right to left. Just wondering!


Nope all right handed, just laid them based on where I'd finished the last one to be honest! I actually think I did both the bits of door wall from left to right but after that I just went along that back wall and carried on. I'm not sure at my speed if it really mattered! 

If there are any suggestions for the videos by the way please do shout. I just plonk my time lapse in, cut out some of the bits of me looking gormless and then record about 70 voice over clips.


----------



## DBT85

I headed out early doors with the sprog in tow to Kellaway to pick up the timbers I needed. Queued for the better part of 50 minutes only to pull in and be told "sorry we're all out till Monday...maybe".

With that and a BBQ afternoon all I got done was cutting down more timber for plates, lintels and whatever name is appropriate in your geography for the bits that hold lintels up :lol: 

I did make one daft decision in that I ended up using 2 of my 2x6 boards for some lintels and had bits left over from each that would have served as another smaller lintel... which I'd already cut. So now I have 26 bits of 2x6 and 26 rafters to cut. Maybe I'll pick up a couple of spares just in case.

I also made one other mistake when planning my timber. My long 7055mm sides require two panels to complete. Once again I made my cut list before actually drawing the specifics (in my initial drawings its just one 7055mm long timber). That cut list was made along the lines of "I need 7.1m, I can get that from a 4.8m and less than half of 4.8m, so 3x 4.8m lengths will sort all my sole plates, and 3 more will do my top plates."

But when actually drawing it up the sections are 4292mm and 2763mm. The latter does not go into 4.8m twice! 

You may ask why not just use 4.8m and then a section to finish? OSB comes in at 1220mm wide, 4x 1220 is 4880mm. So either I faff and have extra studs in places they aren't needed (I'd need one at the end of the 4.8m, and then another at the start of the next section, and then yet another to support the edge of the sheets), or I cut the first plate down to 3.5 sheets of OSB, and then the next plate will join on and the OSB sheet will overlap. BUT I hear you cry, 1220 multiplied by 3.5 does not equal 4292. Correct. But the first stud will be entirely covered in OSB, rather than only half covered, so that extra 22mm needs to be added on.

This probably makes no sense.

Here are the drawings of my frames. OSB will cover the entire face of each stud, which is why not all studs are on 610 centres. 











Big question, do I measure for each stud location with a tape, or cut a couple of noggin sized bits and use those to mark out instead?

Also had a quick go with the Dewalt nailer. Sinks 90 ring shanks easily enough. Its a brute of a tool though. I'm going to look like hulk by next weekend. The 2 speed function just allows you to run in in a slightly lower power setting for nails under 70mm. I'm guessing less wear and tear and longer run time?


----------



## Inspector

Can't say I have ever seen a wall done like that. In almost every case the top plate is doubled with the joint staggered from the one below, the top plate lapping the next wall to lock it. We wouldn't have a doubled 2 x stud with the top plate over each and the plywood meeting there too. It acts more like a hinge as you show where with the doubled top plate and the plywood laid horizontal and staggered with the seam landing on the midpoint of the stud edge they reinforce the joints. The plywood that runs long gets cut and trimmed if needed to take care of spacing to use on the next wall. Good framers here also put a bead of constriction adhesive on all the studs when the plywood is nailed to them for even more strength. Same on the roof.

Following threads like this point out how much differently we do things to achieve and end.

Pete


----------



## DBT85

I don't claim for a second my way is the right way to do it Pete, and Mike is probably scratching his head wondering why I didn't just do something else! 

A second top plate was always an option, just not a requirement.
These frames will be secured to the first sole plate (beded on the mortar and dpc and strapped down) so that will act like the second top plate to stop the hinge action.


----------



## Inspector

We anchor the bottom plates too but that won't stop the top of the wall from bowing out. Or in for that matter. Most of it will be academic once the roof is all done. 

Like I said different ways.  Same as you guys doing the slab and then bricking a small wall to frame onto. On the west coast where the climate is similar, totally different here :roll: , you usually see footings placed all around the perimeter and across if there are bearing walls and forms placed on 1 x 3 on top of the 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 footing forms. Forms are placed on those 1 x 3s for a wall a few feet high (to get above grade level) and then the concrete poured to make the footings and walls in one operation. The top troweled to a 1 x 2 nailed inside the form to a level line and anchor bolts pushed into the concrete to bolt the walls to. After is sets a few days the forms are stripped off and the framing begins. After framing is done the foundation will get waterproofed if needed and drain pipe and a drain rock layer and covered with dirt. Once any inside work is done the slab is poured and floated smooth. The only visible difference is the concrete foundation walls don't look as nice as the brick you end up with but are likely stronger and I think faster to put up.

Pete


----------



## HOJ

Your drawing is too precise! there are several methods you could use for setting out, you could mark the cill plate to create a rod, which is a given, and will allow for any construction tolerances, setting out positions of openings that are required, then transfer the marks to your top and bottom wall frame plates, ganged together, leave a small margin on the end of the wall frame plates to stop splitting when you come to nail the first end stud, and mark off the stud centers, you could cut some noggins, but be aware regularised timber can differ slightly in size, then you can get marginal creep along the run.

Cant see any detailing for your frame corners, have you allowed for them.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks hoj.

Corners are being done like Mike's. OSB on the long sides will butt up against the ends of the short sides. So the cladding is fully supported without adding extra studwork


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":q3ihufsc said:


> ....... so that will act like the second top plate to stop the hinge action.



The purpose of a doubled-up top plate is twofold: to allow rafters to be positioned anywhere, not just above a stud, and, secondly, to tie multiple panels together to help stiffen up longer walls.


----------



## DBT85

If I need a double top plate I need to know before I start nailing things together. Rafters will be on top of studs which is why I haven't had a double top plate until now.


----------



## matkinitice

Curious about the sole plate here.

It seems not all projects have a doubled up sole plate - Mikes workshop for example doesn't. But some of the projects I've followed along with do.

I'm at the last stage of my design but confused about when one is needed, or is this purely a preference thing? I assume that setting the sole plate up, and rigging with wedges over the DPC/thin bed of mortar makes life easier getting things level? If your frame is square then it's just a case of dropping it on and attaching? 

Am I making my life harder if I don't have a second sole plate - my build will be about 2.6m x 6m, with the long sides of the frames split to about 3m. I wasn't planning on having a double top plate as the studs align with the roof, then nailing the studs together for the join.


----------



## Sheptonphil

mAtKINItice":21202f51 said:


> Curious about the sole plate here.
> If your frame is square then it's just a case of dropping it on and attaching?
> 
> Am I making my life harder if I don't have a second sole plate - my build will be about 2.6m x 6m, with the long sides of the frames split to about 3m. I wasn't planning on having a double top plate as the studs align with the roof, then nailing the studs together for the join.


Having a sole plates bedded and set on to the wall and DPC then strapped is far easier than trying to manhandle a 3m+ frame with studs and noggins on to the mortar bed. It is much more difficult Or even impossible to handle that weight with as much precision as a single piece of 4x2. Once the single sole plate is bedded and strapped, it is really easy to line up the walls. They can be corner clamped together, adjusted easily for perfect square and vertical alignment without affecting the true levels of the sole plate bed. I put up 3.6m wall panels on my own, if I had tried to bed those panels directly on to mortar, the pressures would have been all over the place, squeezing out all the mortar in places with the twisting motions that would inevitably have happened. 

Horses for courses really.


----------



## DBT85

Mike's doesn't, but his later house extension then did. I'm not sure if ideas just evolved or what, but that, this and Shepton Phil have all down the same. Bedding the bottom plate on the dpc and mortar alone is much easier than trying to do it with a wall on top of it. No need for the wedges then either.


----------



## matkinitice

Thanks for the update - I'll re-add the sole plate back into my model. At least I'm changing this now in SketchUp, rather than on site. Much easier.

Enjoying the thread - keep it up, though reading this one has made me add a £500 nailer to my list of tool purchases.

I'll repay the entertainment/education hopefully in a few months once my house move is complete.


----------



## DBT85

By then there may well be a ligtlyused Dewalt for sale!


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":270cht53 said:


> If I need a double top plate I need to know before I start nailing things together. Rafters will be on top of studs which is why I haven't had a double top plate until now.



You don't.


----------



## DBT85

Just as well as I'd already started.

Early finish today. 4 of the 6 frames are done, just the 2 for the window wall to go and I can't do those till I have more timber. Hopefully that will be tomorrow.

Just using some of the 2x6 that will soon be rafters to hold the frames up out of the way for tonight. I braced the short sides square with a batten and will do the long sides tomorrow with the OSB that will be going on. 

EVerything mostly went ok. I had a couple of bits that were very bendy and needed persuading into shape but I got there in the end.

The nailer isn't that heavy when you just pick it up, but it feels it in the hand. It would probably need a 12ah battery to really balance it out and feel good. But it sunk everything nicely.







Lets hope I can get timber tomorrow. Just need 5x 3m 50x100.


----------



## Chunky Monkey

It's a bit too late now, but it might be worth checking what size OSB your supplier actually stocks (if you haven't already done so). I recently bought 12 sheets of 9mm OSB for a roofing project and my supplier only had 1200x2400, he mentioned it up front, and for me it wasn't an issue, but it would be a pain in the proverbial for your workshop, IIRC Steve Maskery had a similar issue when building his workshop.

Jon


----------



## DBT85

My plans were all scalable depending on what got delivered and it turned out to be standard 1220*4+2440. Well nearly. Its 2445. No idea why.


----------



## AJB Temple

If you shop around you may well find you can get a first and second fix De Walt nailer battery kit for under £600, including batteries, case etc.


----------



## Fil

DBT85":320p5fwv said:


> These frames will be secured to the first sole plate (beded on the mortar and dpc and strapped down)



have you put mortar on the top ( 2nd course ) of bricks then dpc and then the timber?

OR 

dpc on top of bricks then mortar between dpc an timber?

Either way whats the idea behind the mortar? And not just bricks / DPC / Timber?


----------



## owen

Cracking on now, nice one; but cant help thinking why didn't you just leave the walls laying down until your ready to fix them in place? They're likely to twist being proped like that. Can't believe this thread has 25 pages and the walls haven't even been built yet :lol:


----------



## Sheptonphil

Fil":20tw4f9o said:


> Either way whats the idea behind the mortar? And not just bricks / DPC / Timber?


Its to take any unevenness out between the bricks and the wood and bed the DPC so there is no gaps between it and the bricks which would let water through. It gives a solid even bed and is used to make sure everything is level, if you’re a few mm out it can Level it all up with the frames sitting perfect. 

We were told as boys by builders In the 60’s that the mortar isn’t to stick bricks together, it’s to keep them apart. When we were puzzled, he laid a wall with just sand, no cement , and one with no filling. Only a few courses, but the one with nothing was all over the place and rickety, the one with just sand was really solid.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2g4lledo said:


> Just as well as I'd already started.
> 
> Early finish today. 4 of the 6 frames are done, just the 2 for the window wall to go and I can't do those till I have more timber. Hopefully that will be tomorrow.
> 
> Lets hope I can get timber tomorrow. Just need 5x 3m 50x100.


Great progress things starting to take shape. Nice to get away from the cement trades.


----------



## DBT85

Some timber has been ordered, just waiting to find out which century I can click and collect.



Fil":21pzvota said:


> These frames will be secured to the first sole plate (beded on the mortar and dpc and strapped down)



have you put mortar on the top ( 2nd course ) of bricks then dpc and then the timber?

OR 

dpc on top of bricks then mortar between dpc an timber?

Either way whats the idea behind the mortar? And not just bricks / DPC / Timber?[/quote]

DPC stapled to the underside of the plate, (buy a hammer tacker), mortar on the top of the 3rd course of bricks and blocks, then plate down DPC side first so that its sitting on the mortar. It actually works well as the DPC sticks well to the mortar and doesn't slip around.

Mortar just there as a gap filler if I recall. I believe you could use some some from a caulk gun but you'd need buckets of it. I used about 10kg of cement and 60kg of sand to make that bed, for reference.



owen":21pzvota said:


> Cracking on now, nice one; but cant help thinking why didn't you just leave the walls laying down until your ready to fix them in place? They're likely to twist being proped like that. Can't believe this thread has 25 pages and the walls haven't even been built yet :lol:


Ha yeah its a bit long now, that's why I'm putting in the link in the OP so people can jump through it.

Walls were al on the floor until I was about to start the 5th frame. Basically had to lift them as I had no space to work. They are propped both ends and hopefully by the end of today some or all will be up.


----------



## MikeG.

Fil":3kh7cxg3 said:


> DBT85":3kh7cxg3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> These frames will be secured to the first sole plate (beded on the mortar and dpc and strapped down)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> have you put mortar on the top ( 2nd course ) of bricks then dpc and then the timber?
> 
> OR
> 
> dpc on top of bricks then mortar between dpc an timber?
> 
> Either way whats the idea behind the mortar? And not just bricks / DPC / Timber?
Click to expand...


Its mainly because there is inevitably a high point in the brickwork on which a frame will otherwise pivot. The bricks I use (Weinerberger Rennaissance) are deigned to look like reclaimed hand-made bricks, and so have random curves. Sitting a frame on that would mean a very small area of contact. They also enable leveling if you haven't got the brickwork perfectly level, and finally it reduces air infiltration (draughts). There is a minor element too of raising the timber above any moisture that gathers on the top of the plinth.

I don't know why this is an issue as it is one of the quickest and simplest little steps in the whole build process, and produces a higher quality result than the alternative.


----------



## DBT85

I don't think it's an issue Mike, just people like me who've never done anything like this trying to understand.

Collecting timber at 10.30. 5th frame already finished and just about to cut the OSB that I've nailed to it.

Only the small window wall frame to do now. Should have walls up by the end of play and maybe (outside chance) a ridge beam up.


----------



## Fil

MikeG.":lslubtiu said:


> I don't know why this is an issue as it is one of the quickest and simplest little steps in the whole build process, and produces a higher quality result than the alternative.





DBT85":lslubtiu said:


> I don't think it's an issue Mike, just people like me who've never done anything like this trying to understand.



DBT85s hit the nail on the head ( well fired it in with his nice new toy )

The answer makes perfect sense, and obviously will be applying it to my own build, now im aware and understand the need for it.

Cheers both of you


----------



## HOJ

Chunky Monkey":z1kgtptx said:


> It's a bit too late now, but it might be worth checking what size OSB your supplier actually stocks (if you haven't already done so). I recently bought 12 sheets of 9mm OSB for a roofing project and my supplier only had 1200x2400



Just a note about 9mm OSB, you will probably find its actually 1197 X 2397mm and was generally used for external sheathing for timber frame construction, where a 6mm gap was left between boards.


----------



## DBT85

A good day on site. Travis had the timber in so I picked it up at 10:30 by which time I'd already done the large window panel. Got back and made up the small window panel and then got that, the empty side and the smaller of the 2 panels for the backs side up and clamped together before Mike appeared to help with the bigger lifts. Getting the large window panel up with OSB sticking out the bottom by nearly 30cm was a treat, as was then remembering to cut a notch in the OSB for the service conduit once it was upright.

Got all frames up and squared, secured together and down on the plates. Then we started making the temporary supports for the ridge. Its 7.2m long and 220x70 so not too light. With some supports made from future rafter ties to prevent side to side motion and a spacer in between, we secured them to the middle of the gable walls and then decided we might as well get the ridge up to top palte height and move on tomorrow. 

While the ridge is heavy, when it can't move left or right its actually just a dead lift and no trouble at all to lift one end up about a meter and stand it on an offcut, so the same at the other end, then raise again up and over the plated at both ends. We did need my Mk10 hammer to persuade it back over the second plate as it was too high to push it easily.

Tomrrow I'll be raising it in smaller sections and placing something under it each time to hold it up, with all lateral motion prevented its an easy enough lift. Once in place I can start on cutting the rafters.

These ridge supports are 4.8m and the ridge only needs to go to about 3.6m, so they are a bit longer than needed, but were on hand.

It's feeling like a nice big workshop at the moment. While the space will be more than double my current space, the extra headroom will give me a lot more volume than I have now so it will feel even bigger.

If anyone wants pics of anything else just ask.


----------



## MikeG.

That's looking absobloodylutely brilliant. Just be careful with that lift tomorrow, and always have a plan in case something happens. Like your back suddenly goes half way through a lift......know what you are going to do. Also don't fix the ridge permanently at its height....let it take the location given by a pair of rafters. =D> =D> =D>


----------



## DBT85

Yep that's the plan Mike. It can only go up and down and there will be support under it to prevent it dropping more than a foot or so. It'll be boosted to the correct height above plate and then the rafters will hold it in place.

Once it's happy I'll secure a stud under it at each gable like we talked about before.

Apparently it's due to bucket down here tomorrow. Yay.


----------



## flying haggis

looking good, well done. as mike says be careful, landing on concrete if you slip hurts!!


----------



## DBT85

Lift complete alone and without any issues. The joy of limiting its movement to vertical only. I used a series of offcuts placed on the top the plate to raise it up about 400mm at a time to the final height. Just used other longer offcuts and then my 1.8m level as something to put under it and lift with the legs as it's too much to lift with arms above your head. 

First rafter is cut to plan using a speed square and offered up.






Thunderstorm brewing so we'll see how much more I get done.

Planning on using something I saw on skillbuilder to cut the remaining 25 rafters.


----------



## MikeG.

Excellent. Now, whip that rafter down and don't let it anywhere near the ridge again until it has a partner. Offer them up only in pairs....it can make a significant difference to the location of the ridge beam.

Before you get that far, if you intend to put the rafters up and then add the ties afterwards (it's hard to think of another way you might do it), then you must temporarily tie the wall plates the right distance apart. Marking up a batten with the correct dimension taken from the end of the building, and then nailing it place in the middle, is the easiest way. In fact, as you've got a joined plate you might want to put 2 temporary ties in place, either side of the join.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah thats the plan Mike. I've offered this up both sides to be sure I'm not way out and then it's come down to help cut the others. 

I do have some timber long enough to span the width so that I can tie the 2 sides together before putting the ties in. They were actually in place until we put the ridge up last night.

Not a fan of using a circular saw I have to say. same I need it all day now once the rain stops.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Cracking Progress, really taking shape. Making me tired watching this.


----------



## DBT85

So after off again on again off again rain and thunderstorms all day, plus me spending too long trying to make up a damned OSB template to make life easier, I eventually got all 26 rafters cut to size. Had I not bothered trying to make the template I'd have been done by flippin 3pm.







If the weather holds off tomorrow then the rafters will go up. 

3.6m is quite high when you're down at 1.8m looking up at it squinting because of the sunlight.

Mike, I'm guessing here that the aim would be to get 2 rafters up at one end, nail them both to the plate and then give the ridge a bit of a slap about to set them both equally wherever they want to sit? The ridge would need adjusting up and down to get them to sit at the top of the ridge as the posts its sitting on right now aren't exact.





Sheptonphil":10opj9kd said:


> Cracking Progress, really taking shape. Making me tired watching this.


Its making me tired watching it back!


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":99g0c3f5 said:


> ......Mike, I'm guessing here that the aim would be to get 2 rafters up at one end, nail them both to the plate and then give the ridge a bit of a slap about to set them both equally wherever they want to sit? .....



That's it exactly. Remember to mark your rafter positions on the ridge before you start, both sides. Make sure you know which side of the line the rafters sit, too. Have you got safe access to the ridge, with a scaffold tower?


----------



## Inspector

Run a string along the top of the ridge beam so you can make sure it is straight as you go.

Pete


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":beo1reak said:


> DBT85":beo1reak said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......Mike, I'm guessing here that the aim would be to get 2 rafters up at one end, nail them both to the plate and then give the ridge a bit of a slap about to set them both equally wherever they want to sit? .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's it exactly. Remember to mark your rafter positions on the ridge before you start, both sides. Make sure you know which side of the line the rafters sit, too. Have you got safe access to the ridge, with a scaffold tower?
Click to expand...

I shall. I'll mark it like I marked the plates, a line with an x on the side to be a rafter. If I can see an x I got it wrong.

There is no tower but I do have long arms. If it feels remotely like something I don't feel safe doing I'll stop. Not dropping that far onto concrete, I don't bounce like I used to.


----------



## gerard b

Super progress, great to see.


----------



## DBT85

how many nails and where am I aiming them? 1 skewed through the seat into the top plate from either side? another from the plumb into the plate?


----------



## MikeG.

One in from each side, skewed. You have to be so careful to avoid splitting off the vulnerable short grain.


----------



## DBT85

So in the end just 2 per foot? Same for the ridge?


----------



## MikeG.

Yes, two per foot. The ridge is slightly easier in that you can get one in direct through the top into the ridgeboard, and then you've got a lot of wood to work with, and little in the way of short grain to worry about. You can skew nail the bottom edge from both sides, or, with a normal thickness ridge (45mm) you can nail through the ridge at a slight angle into the rafter on the other side. I think your ridge is thicker, isn't it, so that would make it ineffective. The aim with the rafter ridge nailing is to help prevent twisting.


----------



## DBT85

Ah OK. Yeah mine is 72mm thick.


----------



## DBT85

Productive day again today. 

I started off by getting my first 4 rafters marked up at the gable ends and toe nailed in place and settled on both sides of the ridge. Then I could rest my very long ladder against the ridge with its foot against the block wall. With both ends nailed up I could work out how I was going to mark out the ridge (listen people, do it BEFORE you lift it). With the tape measure clipped over the end of the first rafter I could get up and down the ladder to mark each rafter position on both sides. I did at least manage to do both sides at the same time.

Gable rafters up





With everything marked up I got 4 more rafters up to a working height and settled into my system for mounting. Rafter up and roughly in position, clamp over the plumb cut and the top plate to pull it tight while I cracked the underside of the rafter with my hand to jiggle it enough to settle the seat and then nail it on. Same on the other side and then repeat.

Setting out ready to start the rest





With 4 done I got yet another ladder out and got up there to nail the rafters in place at the ridge. Just rinse and repeat till it was done!

Halfway there





26 rafters completed





With them all up and out of the way I started cutting my larger rafter ties from my old formwork. These are 50x200 so oversize for the job at hand. I cut up a pair of battens as a gauge, clamped them to the rafter with the other end on the floor, then lifted each tie up, clamped one end, screwed the other, then the other. I have moved more ladders today than I care to remember. The ties are only double screwed at each end for now. Once all 7 are done I'll stick a homemade M16 bolt through each end.

4 of 7 rafter ties in place





A decent days work





Tomorrow those ridge supports can come down as I need them to cut the last of my rafter ties. Then I'll work out what I'm doing next.

I've enough offcuts to do my noggins but not enough to make something to close off the eaves like Mike did on his.

Saying that, I'll have a fair bit of 200x50 and 150x50 offcuts that I could rip down.


----------



## Fitzroy

Looking great! F.


----------



## MikeG.

Superb! There's no better feeling in DIY, I reckon, than getting a roof structure up. That looks just great. Well done.....you must be thrilled.

The problem with trying to mark up a ridge before you put it up is that you then have to get it aligned perfectly, sliding it back and forth until it is in the right place. The next best approach, I reckon, is to sit a batten on your wall plate as you mark that out, marking the batten at the same time. You can then sit it on the ridge , pin it in place, and transfer the markings without bothering with a tape......which always comes unhooked at the most inconvenient moment. 

To others using a ladder for the task......be careful! It inherently pushes the ridge slightly out of position, but more importantly, you always have an unfixed timber beside you as you climb up, and the temptation to grab it can be very dangerous.


----------



## MikeG.

Have you got one of those right angle drill attachments? Because otherwise you are going to have issues drilling the bolt holes, I reckon.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Excellent days work, really taking shape. =D>


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":zjurqx5o said:


> Have you got one of those right angle drill attachments? Because otherwise you are going to have issues drilling the bolt holes, I reckon.


Why Mike? I've got 610 centres. Loads of room.


----------



## MikeG.

Oh OK. Drill + bit normally struggles to fit in the gap. If it fits, that's great.


----------



## DBT85

Well I shant be doing anything in the swimming pool today. 

It's been overly moist here since about 4am with no signs of stopping. Maybe I'll cut my m16 rod and feel like I'm still doing something (hammer)

At one point yesterday I thought "oh poop, I have no more 2x6 for the remaining rafter ties, I'll have to get some" and it wasn't until I was making my post last night that I looked at the picture and remembered where my 2x6 had ended up. poking up into the sky to hold up the ridge!


----------



## owen

Really starting to take shape now! What's the m16 rod for?


----------



## DBT85

To bolt the joists to the rafters Owen. Mike said M18 but it was oddly difficult to get, so M16 and a couple of nails will apparently suffice.


----------



## owen

Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?


----------



## Sheptonphil

owen":12wiwx7h said:


> Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?


Deja vu.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Well, cutting a bit of rod hardly constitutes a days graft, you could have helped the good lady, run the hoover round the house, bit of washing, the shelf you said you’d do soon  
I wouldn’t have got away with it on a day like today.


----------



## DBT85

The sum total of my work today. All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage. Very clean and the majority needed no attention at the ends to get a nut on. I've cut rod before and know to keep a nut on there to fix the threads when you wind it off, but no need with that saw. 







I did get a bit of the edit done for Part 5 as well as some of the VO. 

My usedCladMan also arrived from ebay. £100 so £50 off the usual price and it'll help put up my feather edge and can be sold again after I'm done with it.

For larks I checked the size difference between workshop 1 and workshop 2. 

Workshop 1 4m x 3.25m x 2.27m
Workshop 2 6.86m x 4.37m x 2.51m to 3.38m 

13m2 area and 29.5 m3 volume for workshop 1 compared to 29.9 m2 area (230%) and 83m3 (280%) volume for Workshop 2. That's not including the storage space up in the roof which adds another 5 or so.

As we all know more space makes you a better woodworker (homer)



owen":30crc5r0 said:


> Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?


Just going on advice. I can't say one way or the other! No plates. Just bolt and a could of screws/nails.



Sheptonphil":30crc5r0 said:


> Well, cutting a bit of rod hardly constitutes a days graft, you could have helped the good lady, run the hoover round the house, bit of washing, the shelf you said you’d do soon
> I wouldn’t have got away with it on a day like today.



Ha, well I was up at 5:30 with our kid who was less keen on the heavy rain that was falling. I did sort a few little bits out indoors but honestly not much at all. One of those days. Short tempered and grouchy.


----------



## MikeG.

owen":zwqs24gp said:


> Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?



I'd show you some M12s I used in propping up a part of the framing of the old part of my house, if I could find the photo. No, M16 (min.) it is in this situation, definitely. Remember that this will be a roof storage area. Also timber joining washers (dog tooth washers) should be avoided. They don't do anything much for the strength of the junction, and they hold the two bits of wood slightly apart, allowing rocking. That is a real negative. All the structural engineers I work with have abandoned them after I've shown them the results on site, and no building inspector asks for them because they know full well that they do more harm than good.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":39frvgho said:


> ......All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage. Very clean and the majority needed no attention at the ends to get a nut on.......



Put the nut on before you make the cut!! When you wind it back off afterwards it cleans up the thread nicely.


----------



## Inspector

"All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage."

Is that with an abrasive blade or a carbide cold saw type blade? 

Pete


----------



## owen

MikeG.":3epe5hmc said:


> owen":3epe5hmc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd show you some M12s I used in propping up a part of the framing of the old part of my house, if I could find the photo. No, M16 (min.) it is in this situation, definitely. Remember that this will be a roof storage area. Also timber joining washers (dog tooth washers) should be avoided. They don't do anything much for the strength of the junction, and they hold the two bits of wood slightly apart, allowing rocking. That is a real negative. All the structural engineers I work with have abandoned them after I've shown them the results on site, and no building inspector asks for them because they know full well that they do more harm than good.
Click to expand...


Things must be changing all the time because only 2 years ago I replaced a fire damaged roof on a property and the new roof, designed by a structural engineer used both m12 coach bolts and the timber joining washers. I do agree with you if they're not used properly they do more harm than good. I find that drilling the holes, putting the bolts through one side then putting the washer on and setting it in place with a socket and a good few whacks with a hammer works well, then when in place using clamps to pull the two timbers together before tightening the bolts works really well. Tightening the bolts alone doesn't pull them tight even with those big square washers. It'd be good if you could find that photo when you get 5 mins I would be interested to see it .
Sorry for hijacking the thread it's just interesting to find out the reason to do stuff rather than just following advice


----------



## DBT85

Don't apologise Owen it's all interesting!


MikeG.":261qcvsd said:


> Put the nut on before you make the cut!! When you wind it back off afterwards it cleans up the thread nicely.



I tested it without and it worked OK so I saved myself the faff! I wasn't about to cut 14 without checking. I'm not that much of a numpty.


Inspector":261qcvsd said:


> "All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage."
> 
> Is that with an abrasive blade or a carbide cold saw type blade?
> 
> Pete


Just the standard blade that came with it.


----------



## AJB Temple

For cladding ~ if you don't fancy forking out £100 plus for a clad man, you can go the very cheap route of making a super simple "rod" (template) or use an actual ruler, and bang a nail in enough to hold the end of the board, but not so far that it won't come out easily, this is very quick and works perfectly. Having clad umpteen barns and large garages on my own, I can affirm that this works. And the nails can be reused afterwards. Equals almost free. 

Just as quick in practice.


----------



## MikeG.

owen":3da3kxxt said:


> .......Things must be changing all the time because only 2 years ago I replaced a fire damaged roof on a property and the new roof, designed by a structural engineer used both m12 coach bolts and the timber joining washers.



Was the roof designed for storing loads of timber? That's the point here......not resisting spread, but sustaining a vertical load.




> I do agree with you if they're not used properly they do more harm than good. I find that drilling the holes, putting the bolts through one side then putting the washer on and setting it in place with a socket and a good few whacks with a hammer works well, then when in place using clamps to pull the two timbers together before tightening the bolts works really well. Tightening the bolts alone doesn't pull them tight even with those big square washers.



There's still the thickness of the washer plate. To try to crush that into the surface of the timbers is a task with a low success rate.



> It'd be good if you could find that photo when you get 5 mins I would be interested to see it .
> Sorry for hijacking the thread it's just interesting to find out the reason to do stuff rather than just following advice



I just spent 15 minutes looking, but with no luck. Sorry. 

The other reason to do it is because a Building Inspector tells you. I got told that my raised ties (house roof) could be M12 if they are not taking a load and if they were supported by a secondary timber. DBT85s roof is larger than that one, and is designed for taking a substantial load.


----------



## Yojevol

MikeG.":2ur6ofyv said:


> and is designed for taking a substantial load.


 Very substantial. Each M16 bolt will have a shear strength of about 2tons :!:


----------



## owen

MikeG.":1n0napw8 said:


> owen":1n0napw8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......Things must be changing all the time because only 2 years ago I replaced a fire damaged roof on a property and the new roof, designed by a structural engineer used both m12 coach bolts and the timber joining washers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was the roof designed for storing loads of timber? That's the point here......not resisting spread, but sustaining a vertical load.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree with you if they're not used properly they do more harm than good. I find that drilling the holes, putting the bolts through one side then putting the washer on and setting it in place with a socket and a good few whacks with a hammer works well, then when in place using clamps to pull the two timbers together before tightening the bolts works really well. Tightening the bolts alone doesn't pull them tight even with those big square washers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's still the thickness of the washer plate. To try to crush that into the surface of the timbers is a task with a low success rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It'd be good if you could find that photo when you get 5 mins I would be interested to see it .
> Sorry for hijacking the thread it's just interesting to find out the reason to do stuff rather than just following advice
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I just spent 15 minutes looking, but with no luck. Sorry.
> 
> The other reason to do it is because a Building Inspector tells you. I got told that my raised ties (house roof) could be M12 if they are not taking a load and if they were supported by a secondary timber. DBT85s roof is larger than that one, and is designed for taking a substantial load.
Click to expand...


No you're right there it wasn't designed for holding a substantial amount of timber. 
The washer plate on the ones I have used is very thin and the timbers seem to tighten up against each other. It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison to see if there was much difference between using the plates and not using the plates. Thanks for looking for the picture, if you ever stumble across it post it up. There doesn't actually look like much storage space up there but it must be the pictures.


----------



## MikeG.

Yojevol":1hymlo5s said:


> MikeG.":1hymlo5s said:
> 
> 
> 
> and is designed for taking a substantial load.
> 
> 
> 
> Very substantial. Each M16 bolt will have a shear strength of about 2tons :!:
Click to expand...


As with all things structural, deflection seems to be the biggest factor. Acceptable bend vs unacceptable bend. Where is that point?


----------



## siggy_7

MikeG.":27obqbey said:


> As with all things structural, deflection seems to be the biggest factor. Acceptable bend vs unacceptable bend. Where is that point?



For the wooden beam, sure. But the fasteners through the ends don't affect the beam deflection. Perhaps more to do with the area over which the load is distributed onto the wood fibres of the hole - excessive loading would crush and distort the hole's form.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


----------



## PAC1

If you are going to use the roof space for storing a substantial amount of timber you should leave two or three middle ties/joists out as otherwise you will not be able to get timber up there or back down when there is a stack of timber. The piece of timber has to approach horizontal before it hits the roof and in order to approach horizontal there needs to be sufficient space allow the other end to come up. You can get a length shorter than the length of your joist up and swing it around but if there is already timber and other stuff in the roof space you cannot.
You then should (probably) fix the unrestrained rafters with metal ties to the wall plate


----------



## MikeG.

siggy_7":yqt3eonj said:


> MikeG.":yqt3eonj said:
> 
> 
> 
> As with all things structural, deflection seems to be the biggest factor. Acceptable bend vs unacceptable bend. Where is that point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the wooden beam, sure. But the fasteners through the ends don't affect the beam deflection. Perhaps more to do with the area over which the load is distributed onto the wood fibres of the hole - excessive loading would crush and distort the hole's form.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Yes, that was my point (poorly made). The bigger bolt design isn't about the point at which it breaks, but about how much movement in the joint is acceptable.


----------



## MikeG.

PAC1":zzi5fkgw said:


> If you are going to use the roof space for storing a substantial amount of timber you should leave two or three middle ties/joists out as otherwise you will not be able to get timber up there.......



:lol: :lol: You might want to have a read back through the thread. That's precisely what is happening.


----------



## DBT85

The storage area of the end done so far is in the region of 2.5m deep, 2.7m wide and about 0.8m tall. The other end is about 1.5m deep.

I've no idea how much weight I'll end up putting up there, but with this I should also be able to hang stuff between the ties (right mike?). So I could build some storage that goes up into the gap between the joists. 

Incidentally. The weather is still not great here today, but its not raining quite as hard. I'm trying to work out a plan of action for the next couple of days before the weather gets very good again (I think its hitting 28 on Wednesday!).

I have materials on site for OSB lining, noggins, breathable membrane, insulation and battens. What I don't have enough of is material to close off the eaves, I don't think. The weather basically picks up from tomorrow so maybe I'll do noggins and the last 3 ties today and once the worst of the weather ends tomorrow I can OSB the walls. Not sure how well they'll cope with rain.

Incidentally, Mike, the bulk of the insulation I have here is 60mm thick. Is 120mm in a 148mm rafter enough of an air gap above?



PAC1":5779i9n8 said:


> If you are going to use the roof space for storing a substantial amount of timber you should leave two or three middle ties/joists out as otherwise you will not be able to get timber up there or back down when there is a stack of timber. The piece of timber has to approach horizontal before it hits the roof and in order to approach horizontal there needs to be sufficient space allow the other end to come up. You can get a length shorter than the length of your joist up and swing it around but if there is already timber and other stuff in the roof space you cannot.
> You then should (probably) fix the unrestrained rafters with metal ties to the wall plate


I have a 3m section with no ties in for that very reason. Though I don't know yet what I'll end up putting up there.

Mike hasn't mentioned any extra bracing on the rafters with no ties, but I can add some if required.


----------



## PAC1

MikeG.":1pzib8lr said:


> PAC1":1pzib8lr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going to use the roof space for storing a substantial amount of timber you should leave two or three middle ties/joists out as otherwise you will not be able to get timber up there.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: You might want to have a read back through the thread. That's precisely what is happening.
Click to expand...


Better it is said twice than not at all :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":1qib3636 said:


> ........Incidentally, Mike, the bulk of the insulation I have here is 60mm thick. Is 120mm in a 148mm rafter enough of an air gap above?



It's more about the drape of the membrane than an air gap. The necessary air gap is above the membrane, and below the tiles. So long as the membrane drapes OK (ie it hangs down between rafters), then that might just be OK. 



> Mike hasn't mentioned any extra bracing on the rafters with no ties, but I can add some if required.



There's no need for anything other than what we've designed already.

Are you lining the underside of the rafters with OSB?


----------



## DBT85

Ah ok, 30mm should be enough to drape in there I guess? I can always have a look see.

Yes, the plan is OSB on the underside of the rafters. I can't wait to cut the slots for the ties. Yay.


----------



## DBT85

As I said, crappy weather again today though it did brighten up eventually.

All I did today was get the ridge supports down, cut the last 3 rafter ties and got them fitted and the M16 bolts in place. Well that and swept the Atlantic out of my workshop.







The weather is improving basically from now so I'd like to get it water proof by next weekend if I can. 

I reckon I can use offcuts of 50x100 and the 25x100 I ordered for use on the corners of the cladding to get the eaves closed. That will mean I can get it all covered in membrane at least.

Early start tomorrow, noggins cut and in and then maybe start on the OSB. "That'll be fun" he said.

Since it was rubbish today I did a Maskery and baked some chocolate chocolate chocolate cookies.


----------



## DBT85

Got all my eaves fillers cut and in place. Just got to take them all out to treat the ends.

I'm thinking of it sticking out 45mm from the top plate. 25mm for the batten and then the thin edge of this FE is 10mm. There would be 10mm hanging over the top. Sound reasonable?


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":20bldrnd said:


> Got all my eaves fillers cut and in place. Just got to take them all out to treat the ends.
> 
> I'm thinking of it sticking out 45mm from the top plate. 25mm for the batten and then the thin edge of this FE is 10mm. There would be 10mm hanging over the top. Sound reasonable?


45mm overhang from plate is what I made mine, 25 batten and 8mm Hardie plank. so 12 mm over.


----------



## DBT85

Great, thanks Phil.

Even if its wrong at least we are wrong together :lol: 

Done for today now. Doesn;t look like much but it felt productive.

Used all of the offcuts for the studs to make the noggins first. Naturally the gaps are not all perfect so I had a quick measure and made them in batches that were close enough and then went around and trimmed those that needed it, treated the ends and got them nailed in.


Then it was time to tackle the closing of the eaves. I still had some 50x100 left over but sadly the offcuts from my noggins were about 40mm short, so I had to use what was left of the stud offcuts. I set up a stop block and cut everything to 570mm, slightly larger than any gap between rafters. I literally ran out with the last one cut. I now probably have 12m of 530mm offcuts. 

That solved one angle, the rise was dealt with by using the 25x100 that I'd ordered for the cladding corners, so more will be needed later. 






With everything cut I started to screw the first one together and remembered I had a nail gun. That was much easier.






All nailed together it was time to trim each one to size and use the Mk3 Persuader to encourage them to sit snugly without putting undue pressure on the rafters. Each one was fitted with the previous ones still in place to ensure it will still fit when actually nailed in place.

With that done they could all be taken out and treated. Jim has come through with an electric planer as I don't have one so I can do that before getting the roof membrane on. I see me digging a french drain at his house next month in payment for his assistance overall.






Looks like so little but it was a satisfying day in the end.

Tomorrow it's time to get those fitted then get my OSB cut and the walls lined. I can then bring up the estimated 75 half sheets of insulation I need for the walls and roof from the farmyard. Bought at a farm auction a year ago for £130 for about 120 600x2400mm sheets of 60mm? That'll do nicely.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":2tww56ia said:


> Got all my eaves fillers cut and in place. Just got to take them all out to treat the ends.
> 
> I'm thinking of it sticking out 45mm from the top plate. 25mm for the batten and then the thin edge of this FE is 10mm. There would be 10mm hanging over the top. Sound reasonable?



That assumes that the top board arrives at the eaves as a whole board. I'd leave a little more, personally.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":1wnpjjez said:


> DBT85":1wnpjjez said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got all my eaves fillers cut and in place. Just got to take them all out to treat the ends.
> 
> I'm thinking of it sticking out 45mm from the top plate. 25mm for the batten and then the thin edge of this FE is 10mm. There would be 10mm hanging over the top. Sound reasonable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That assumes that the top board arrives at the eaves as a whole board. I'd leave a little more, personally.
Click to expand...

My boards were 8mm flat, so was certain the top was 8mm, not sure the size of the FB here.


----------



## DBT85

Unproductive today, all I managed was to fit those rafter fillers and plane them down.

Tomorrow, tomorrow the OSB will go up.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":28ulwujk said:


> Unproductive today, all I managed was to fit those rafter fillers and plane them down.
> 
> Tomorrow, tomorrow the OSB will go up.


That was slightly more productive than me


----------



## Sheptonphil

Have sent you a pm, I think.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks for that Phil. Appreciated.

Something approaching work was done today, though a further 2 hours were lost as I needed to get some more cut end goop. Seems to be like rocking horse teeth.

Despite wanting to crack on with the boarding I knew I'd need the gable studs (ladder?) done, so I set about that. The first issue being I have no bits of 50x100 on hand that are longer than 530mm. A shame as I have 40 odd of those. That size would at least serve for the 4 smallest studs, so I used some up to get those done to hone my plan. If I got something wrong I had lots of offcuts to redo it on.

With the 4 small ones complete I could resaw the 50x150 offcuts I had kicking around down to 50x100. The Evolution table saw dealt with that easily enough and then I could offer each up to mark it accordingly, carefully noting which side needing chopping out and numbering each one so I knew where it needed to go when I was done. Rather than chopping and changing everything around I did all of the ones where the right side needed chopping out, then all the ones where the left side needed chopping out. 

Gable studs done and rafter fillers trimmed





Naturally it was just as I was treating these ends that I ran out of the cut end treatment. 

Anyway, with those all done and fitted I could finally start getting some OSB up. These were still out on the driveway where they were delivered so for the first time I had to actually lug materials round to the workshop. I wanted to get the long side walls done first as those were the easy ones. 4 and a half sheets each side.

First up I trimmed 4 all at once with the tracksaw but I didn't bother doing it again as it was too much of a faff lining all 4 up to be cut the same. The sheets are cut to be about 25mm shy of the floor as I'll run some kind of skirting around to finish it off, and there will be a floating floor anyway. It wasn't long before I'd got my method down and I had both sides sorted. I can already see and feel a difference between the new sheets and the ones that have been up a few days and been rained on. Needs must.

It would be nice if the nail gun beeped at you when it knew it only had x nails left. It knows its running short as it won't fire if its only got 3 or 4 left, so just beep at me a bit before so that I've not got a sheet held up ready to nail only for it to not fire and then I notice I'm out. I was going through those 50mm nails quite quickly while putting the sheets up!
















Tomorrow I'll have to run a little timber into the gables for the diagonal tops of sheets to nail to. Then the fun of boarding those out and then the underside of the rafters! Yay.

The video for the framing is nearly done so hopefully it won't be too long. I know you're all on the edge of your seat.


----------



## MikeG.

Those "little" jobs take ages. They're so important, too.

This is all looking very good. You must have a good sense of the space now, having been through the "it's waaaaay too small" and "wow, it's bloody huge" stages. And I'll bet you're damn pleased you've got a nail gun.


----------



## DBT85

Oh at no point has there been a "its too small" feeling. It started out as "its ducking huge" and as the bricks went in and then the walls it felt smaller, but still a great size. It feels so airy even with those side walls lined. Fine, its an open air workshop at present, but its just going to be so nice to work in.

The nailer worked a lot today so yes, well worth it. Also handy as you can secure things one handed while your other hand, foot, calf and knee hold things up!

Made me laugh earlier when I started watching a video of an American talking about their "tiny" workshop and it was at least this big. They have no idea.


----------



## DBT85

I now have 12 of the framed panels that SheptonPhil has on their way (an offer from the seller for 12 for £256).

The bigger question now is how am I going to mount them. I don't have a flat ceiling like Phil and obviously I have the vaulted section.

Mike, how did you illuminate yours as it has a similar profile inside?


----------



## MikeG.

I started with flourescent tubes, but replaced those over my bench with 3 600x600 LED panels. I just rebated some scrap to make a frame top and bottom, and slid the panels in. Two on the skilling (sloped ceiling), and one on the flat (underside of the joists).


----------



## flying haggis

DBT85":2t14peu7 said:


> I now have 12 of the framed panels that SheptonPhil has on their way (an offer from the seller for 12 for £256).
> 
> The bigger question now is how am I going to mount them. I don't have a flat ceiling like Phil and obviously I have the vaulted section.
> 
> Mike, how did you illuminate yours as it has a similar profile inside?


i briefly looked at the site for those light panels and i seem to recall they did a hanging kit, if they didnt some one else might or you could make a hanging system from ordinary chain, looking at the pics of the panels there is a nice tall side on the panel to fix chain to.
toolstation do 10m of chain for £7.54 https://www.toolstation.com/bright-steel-chain/p79827
just checked the site again and it is listed as suspension kit (expensive for what it is though)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Flat-Pan ... 2749.l2649


----------



## DomD

I used hanging kits from LEDSave for all of mine; each cost £4. 
I put them on the ridge like this but the wires were long so you could hang them from the rafter slope.





Dom


----------



## DBT85

Thanks for input on the lights chaps. I'll have a think.

A productive day again today. With the long walls finished off yesterday it was time to start on the gable walls. I did the easy end first and did the easy part of that first, just the sheets that went along. I was fortunate enough that with my shape I was able to cut the whole gable peak from one sheet of OSB. A small notch later for the ridge and one end was done. 

Easy gable done





Diagonal cut needed to make the gable triangles.





With that end done I set about the door end. Wifey helped by marking out where the door hole was while I held the sheet up on both sides and then I just needed to make a little infill for the section above the door. The batten you can see was something I added to push my sheets upto to get the same height all across. It's hard enough lifting them with one hand and holding them there, let alone trying to align them too!






Before I could start boarding out the rafters I had to add yet another piece for the boards to secure to, this was the first real mistake I'd made on the job so far. For reasons known only to me (I'm claiming heat stroke) I didn't check where that new piece needed to go properly. Batten was secured to the gable rafters at sort of the right place, and then I realised it needed to be in the _actual_ right place for the sheets to nail to. First use of the crowbar helped get the 60mm nails out without too much grief. With the battens properly secured in place (Using another pair of battens clamped to the underside of the rafters as a guide), I could start on the boarding.

I decided to stick to boarding in the same orientation as the walls and to begin by boarding above the joists up to the ridge. Naturally I had to cut the board a little short to allow it to swing past the ridge, but that gap will be closed off by securing more OSB to the underside of the ridge.

With the first 2 boards cut to the correct width (the first boards on the walls fly past the gable wall, so I had to cut these ones down as they would be butting up to the internal OSB) and height, I could lift them onto the joists and then get up there and nail in place.






That was all for the day. We also had a crew come in to take some of the Ash branches down so the garden is looking a little busy! 

I'm really hoping to get the boarding done tomorrow so that I can get the insulation in and the membrane over at least the roof before the rain comes back in earnest. Right now it's supposed to be 50% chance of rain on Friday, so I've got my work cut out.


----------



## flying haggis

looking good, lets hope the rain holds off but at this rate you will have it roofed and watertight by thursday...............

one thing you will miss is being able to see through the walls to see where you left something.


----------



## DBT85

I'm hoping so Haggis but its going to be a slog tomorrow cutting around those joists. Insulation and expandy foam is on site so hopefully I can do it before anything too bad happens. 

The Framing video is now uploading for anyone who wants to watch me bumble about for another 9 minutes. Should be done in the next 5 or so.

https://youtu.be/_5LDYIWEbas


----------



## Westwood

Not sure this helps at all but for lighting, why not consider LED tubes? They are discreet and look very similar to older fluorescent tubes.
But are superior in every way. I have them in my loft, small workshop and other outbuildings - love them to bits. Great for working under and easy to attach to the underside of your ceiling members, say every other one
Good luck for the rest of the week, (hammer) erm possibly the hottest few days of the year so far :roll:


----------



## Sheptonphil

Not sure how you hold those OSBs up to the rafters to nail them alone, can’t be easy. Bet you won’t be sad to see the back of that job. 

Fantastic progress, fingers crossed the weather holds.


----------



## DBT85

Westwood":1ndtvazo said:


> Not sure this helps at all but for lighting, why not consider LED tubes? They are discreet and look very similar to older fluorescent tubes.
> But are superior in every way. I have them in my loft, small workshop and other outbuildings - love them to bits. Great for working under and easy to attach to the underside of your ceiling members, say every other one
> Good luck for the rest of the week, (hammer) erm possibly the hottest few days of the year so far :roll:



I've not been that keen of tubes and I've already ordered these panels now. Thanks though. It's going to be a scorcher today. At least I'm making my own shade!


Sheptonphil":1ndtvazo said:


> Not sure how you hold those OSBs up to the rafters to nail them alone, can’t be easy. Bet you won’t be sad to see the back of that job.
> 
> Fantastic progress, fingers crossed the weather holds.


A batten at the bottom will hold one end and it only takes a couple of nails in to hold the rest. The difficult ones are going to be the 4 full sheets for the open section just because of the size, every other sheet needs cutting down so at least lifts easier.

Girl is at nursery this morning so if I need assistance wifey can help more easily. Don't mind a sheet falling on us but would rather they don't fall on a 3 year old!


----------



## flying haggis

dont know about making your own shade, more like making your own sauna.

keep up the fluid intake :wink:


----------



## DBT85

Another grand day today. I started off by getting the easy boards up in the roof, this comprisedof 2 whole sheets, 2 99% whole sheets and then 4 smaller cut peices. With those in place I could start the fiddly bit of cutting around the rest of the rafter ties/joists. 

A handy resting place for an unwieldy sheet





"Easy" sheets complete





I was once again fortunate that the distance from the wall to the ridge was nigh on 2480mm, and I needed to leave a little gap to be able to swing boards up past the ridge as it sticks out below the rafters. So a 2440 sheet pretty much filled the gap entirely. The gap at the ridge will be covered with a single piece nailed to the underside of the ridge.

So with the offcuts of my earlier exertions I could begin measuring, marking, measuring again, writing on the wall, checking and finally cutting. All in all not too difficult, though true to the rest of the project I was unable to not copy Mike in one more way. For one cut, just one, I had measured the distance to the rafter, and not the joist. Ploppers.

Todays cockup





Todays result





With that all finished I could hop (more like teeter) onto the roof and nail on some supports for those cut ends, then come down again to finish the nailing inside.

Next up it was time to attack the insulation. I had 23 sheets of 610x2440 60mm insulation already up from the farm. While the stuff is easy enough to cut I do find that handsaws make an inordinate mess. Add to that an element of drunken blade wander and I figured since the table saw was still out it was the work of a moment to rip all the sheets down to size, and lo, it was. A nice finish on the edge too so less bits flapping around.

This is the insulation that cost £120 for 60 sheets, so thats 30 full sheets, equalling just £4 for a full sheet. The joy of farmers sales. The second batch did test the wallet a bit though at...£6 per full sheet.  Again, these were not bought for this job, they were bought for use around the farm (cottages, houses etc) over a year ago. 

So off I started carving them up to work around bolts and joists and so on. Once you have a pattern for the first one the next become much easier. I ended the day doing the nice easy sheets in the vaulted section with no pesky bits to cut out. Just trim an angle off the end of the first piece and in they sailed. 

I'll have more insulation and expandy foam brought up tomorrow morning while I'm sorting the remaining sheets out. Hopefully I can get them all done, foamed and membraned before the expected thunderstorms on Friday morning. It would be nice to get the walls done too, but its just not going to happen. I'm a little less worried about those.








flying haggis":129711lh said:


> dont know about making your own shade, more like making your own sauna.
> 
> keep up the fluid intake :wink:



Yes it was a little hot boxy by the end of the day! Did feel a little less burny than yesterday despite high temps today though.


----------



## MikeG.

=D> =D> =D>


----------



## Sheptonphil

Superb progress. Interior space looks amazing. =D> =D>


----------



## DBT85

Thanks chaps. Yes it's nice to be able to feel the exact size of the workshop internally now. It's a little echoey at the moment as there is only an inch of sawdust on the floor so far.

A thought occurs about the membrane, do I use some of the nails I've got for the tiles, do I use the hammer tacker? Do I have to put battens on it?

Hopefully whatever rain we do get come Friday won't be too bad and I can get the walls done.


----------



## MikeG.

Initially you staple the membrane in place. (One tip here is to avoid staples on the top of the end rafters, and instead wrap it over the sides and staple there. Otherwise you will inevitably find yourself trying to pull them out at some stage). Then if you've time you fix battens in their proper final location. More likely, though, are a few fly battens. These are just battens stuck up there in no particular location to stop the felt from blowing off. DON'T HAMMER THE NAILS HOME! And you certainly don't need a nail at each rafter......maybe every third, something like that.

I can't remember what is going on your roof. Whatever it is, do you have it on site?


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike.

Yes I have the tiles on site.

Not sure how I'm going to lay the membrane over the ridge while avoiding sticking a boot through the stuff below though!

I take it usual fixing is staples in the top which will later be overlapped and the battens holding it down everywhere else, to minimise puncture points.


----------



## owen

Staples wherever you want, as long as it's draping between the rafters slightly you should be fine. If you're going to put the battens on straight away you'll only need a few staples unless it's windy. It tends to get windy as soon as you pick up a roll of roofing felt even if it's been calm all day :lol: Put the bottom piece of felt on first, batten up say 3/4 of that and then stand on the battens to do the next bit of felt.


----------



## MikeG.

As Owen says, you build your own ladder up the roof out of battens. If you are properly battening as you go, then do as he describes. However, I sense you are wanting to just get the place semi-waterproof before it rains, in which case you'll likely be fly-battening. You still have to climb on these to reach the top of the roof..........but be bloody careful. I would only stand on them at the point where they are nailed.


----------



## DBT85

Righto, I'll have to wokr something out.

Months of bleedin sunshine and all I want is 2 more days worth.


----------



## owen

If you're temporarily battening it, do the top piece of felt first but don't nail the bottom edge until you get the piece below on, no climbing on dodgy Battens then. You only need day 4 nails, nailed in by hand half way not with the nail gun to hold a 4.8m batten down. If you have to walk on the temporary battens stand where the nails are


----------



## Sheptonphil

On mine I did the top down route (page 9?) 

I found it easy to lay the membrane across from the ridge first, leaving the bottom foot or so free of fixings. When laying the next piece down it is relatively simple to position and then fix the overlap. There’s a clear 150mm marking along both edges to help with keeping the membrane level as well.


----------



## DBT85

Perfect thanks Phil. Useful I bought the same as you!

It's 9:40 and it's 23 degrees already. I have at least got my next batch of insulation here already and this side of the roof is complete. Time to take on water like the Titanic and cut the next 24 boards to width.


----------



## DBT85

Well its done. That's all you're getting from me tonight.

The phrase rhymes with clucking bell.


----------



## MikeG.

.............and relax. Deep breaths.......


=D> =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Westwood

Nice one - great progress DBT.
Glad you've got some protection on.
Not sure what part of the country you're building in , but way down south here, we've just had the mother of storms and its heading vaguely Northwards.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah that's what I needed it done today for as the forecast said today you shall bake and tomorrow you shall drown. Hopefully it doesn't hit here anyway.


----------



## Sheptonphil

I achieved nothing today, I walked out, looked at it and turned round and went back n. 

To achieve that in 30C+ is a superb effort, at least you can take tomorrow off knowing all will be pretty well protected. You kinda want it to rain now you’ve done the work.


----------



## DBT85

So, the morning after the night before. It's still there. Still no rain.

Everything went pretty well for the most part. You get surprisingly comfortable climbing wonky ladders and crawling all over your roof when you have to do it for a few days. I had a lie in yesterday and didn't get out of bed till 7 helped by the fact that my kid also decided that sleep was good. 

While my wimmin slept I woke up and got ready to go and move the truck to get more insulation. Lo and behold as I walked out to where the track was, it wasn't. Mike had already been up and was driving across the field with my next batch of insulation. All £48 worth. Great. All materials on site to crack on. 

I'd already cut all but the last 2 bits (which are narrower than normal) to width the night before so I could carve up my first one for the door end, check my measurements and then make 2 more to the same pattern, and 3 more bits to go over the top. With those all in place I then did the easy one at the end, just a straight run to two different widths. The first side was done by 9:40 and we were seeing 23c already.

One half complete





Time to fire up the saw again and make some mess. 





I know most only use a hand saw for the insulation but honestly I'd do it again with the table saw. 20 pieces all cut to perfect width in a minute or two with less mess and no marking out. This is obviously easier when the boards come in half widths in the first place.

I started hacking bits away to get the other side done and it all went in without major issue. As always you work it out slowly and it only gets faster as you start banging it up. It really helped noting the cuts from the first boards to just mark out the same for the next 3 or 4 for around the joists. I could do minimal trips around the garden to the saw and up and down the ladder.

The far side was complete by about 2:15. The temperature was about TooHot degrees. 





We'd had some friends arrive for a distanced BBQ and with them came grown up conversation and cold beer, so I wasn't going to miss out after 3 months. Really the only thing I've missed since lockdown started was this kind of afternoon with friends. 

Despite that I needed to get my foam in so I hoofed it up onto the ridge once more with the foam lance. Wifey and friend Lee proved adept at launching cans of foam up to me on the ridge and I worked my way along the top doing the gap and as far down the rafter edges as I could comfortably reach. Then it was time to scamper across the rafters to do the rest of it, then the other side. But it was done by about 3:30 and I could sit, eat have a much needed beer and enjoy a natter while the foam cured.

They did the foxtrot come 6 and so I could get back up and trim any odd bits that had bubbled up out of nowhere and clean up a little of the more overzealous foam. Then I set out my membrane on the floor and marked out 5x 7.5m lengths, enough to do the whole roof with excess. 

That's where I started getting hot under the collar. The merest gnats fart had the stuff billowing all over the place, and I'd only folded the membrane up to get it up onto the ridge and work down like SheptonPhil did for his. Never again. With the ridge piece on I could come back down for my second length. This proved more difficult as I was rapidly running out of rafter to hold onto or stand on. The third and final length for the far side was completed mostly from the ladder. That side looks rubbish compared to the side in the photo, but it doesn't need to look pretty.

The side you've seen was done marginally better and slightly differently. I rolled up my membrane as tight as I could and after clambering onto the roof went to the farthest end from the ladder and worked backwards. I wasn't quite getting in my own way as often, but boy was I glad I didn't have a steeper pitch to try standing on. With that one down it was fairly easy to do the last bit down at the eaves once again all from the ladder.

The lesson here is don't listen to Phil. :lol: Start at the bottom and work up using battens. Oddly, exactly as you're supposed to do it. 

I wish I'd worked out something for my batten spacings before getting to this point so I could have put some up without them being temporary. But time was also in the way as the potential for rain was high enough that I didn't want my hard work ruined. 

So that's that. I'd never do it that way again, but apart from the membrane part it all went ok given the ridiculous temperatures.

All in all the insulation cost for the roof came to £92. Not bad for 34m2 of 120mm insulation. A new record perhaps?









Sheptonphil":2fojl1t2 said:


> I achieved nothing today, I walked out, looked at it and turned round and went back n.
> 
> To achieve that in 30C+ is a superb effort, at least you can take tomorrow off knowing all will be pretty well protected. You kinda want it to rain now you’ve done the work.


You useless bum! ha. Yes deffo a day off today. A day off in which I get to sort admin out, clear up, generally not relax.


----------



## flying haggis

thats handy. now its covered in black membrane it will get even hotter in there.  

get those window openings cut out to let the breeze through


----------



## owen

Hang on, have you pulled the temporary battens off?? You want to leave them on so the felt doesn't blow away. Nice progress though


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis":2ijp1gq8 said:


> thats handy. now its covered in black membrane it will get even hotter in there.
> 
> get those window openings cut out to let the breeze through



Ha, with that much PIR up there I'd hope it'll be fine. It did actually feel cooler when I went in there today.

I'll leave the windows until such time as I'm ready to fill them.


owen":2ijp1gq8 said:


> Hang on, have you pulled the temporary battens off?? You want to leave them on so the felt doesn't blow away. Nice progress though


No battens at all were harmed in the making of this covering. Planning on putting them on tomorrow.

Next time I'm doing it how you and Mike told me to. Or working out my whole gauge so I can just do it all at the same time.


----------



## MikeG.

It's going to be a bit breezy in your neck of the woods tomorrow afternoon. I'd chuck 2 or 3 battens up each side just to be sure.


----------



## Lons

MikeG.":19dum6a0 said:


> It's going to be a bit breezy in your neck of the woods tomorrow afternoon. I'd chuck 2 or 3 battens up each side just to be sure.



I'd second that or you're likely to be chasing some large black kites across the fields, not something you want to be doing especially as it would be torn and useless. #-o


----------



## DBT85

Yep first job tomorrow is to get battening. I enjoyed a day not dangling from a roof or lifting sheet goods above my head today.

I did tidy up a tiny bit. But only a tidy bit.


----------



## DBT85

Good news is that it rained and the roof works. Bad news is a little got in on the walls but that was to be expected until they are covered also. I'll bang up the 2 tarps I have on the walls to offer a little protection until tomorrow or Monday.

I'm sitting here trying to work out where the battens are supposed to go for these slates and my head is just failing to comprehend so I'm just going to have to bang some random ones up for now. Of course, I have no nails (I never use nails for anything) apart from those that I have for the nail gun so I'll have to work something out. 

I've only got a few hours at it this morning at best.


----------



## DBT85

After a moment to un collate (de collate?) some nails I headed up in the spitting rain to get some battens on. About half way through I cracked my thumb with the hammer. Everyone in the tri county area heard me. 

I got up the other side and got some battens up there too, also did my thumb again. Why don't I use more nails I wonder? (hammer) 

As I don't have much time today I then banged up what I could on the walls to help keep some wet out as it's drizzly. The 8x6m tarp that covered the slab is on the back wall (that wall got hit harder with the overnight rain), the smaller tarp we had went over the door to keep the worst out and then I used what was left of the first roll of membrane on the window wall and then as far as I could on the short back wall. I'm fairly certain I won't actually need it anyway if I wreck it getting it off again, but I can be careful removing the staples.

It'll have to do.

Months and months of amazing weather and now this at the worst time.


A temporary raincoat


----------



## Bm101

I drop in every few days to check and see on progress. Looking great! 
I'm sure you have it covered 8) but just in case :shock: . Looking forward, when you install electrics, are you putting in noggins where you want your points/backboxes?
If you hadn't considered it it might be worth routing etc/etc/etc out big old oversize housings now on a flat surface and then fit them. Once marked out clearly on the floor where they are will be a doddle to connect up to later. One screw and backbox issues solved or similar quick fix.
(Just in case it had slipped your attention.)


----------



## DBT85

I'm not sure if I catch your meaning?

I guess I have the opportunity now to run cables in the empty walls and feed it through but my plan was to run in conduit and trunking where needed and have surface mounted boxes.

Mike, I'm unsure of the next step with the roof. I think I've worked out what I need to do for my battens, but what I'm not sure on is what the end of the tile is sitting on. I have closed off my eaves as you did and planed it flat but are the tiles going to sit on that all the way along or are they sitting on a fascia board?


----------



## MikeG.

Show us your tiles. They almost always sit on top of the fascia, but you have to get that positioned just right, and that will vary depending on the tile type.


----------



## DBT85

They are just cembrit fibre cement tiles. Basically the exact same thing as Phil used. Flat, smooth, 300x600, square edges.


----------



## MikeG.

OK then, the same as slates in terms of setting out. You'll need an extra batten at the bottom to pick up the eaves course (that can be a slate turned 90 degrees). The bottom row of slates (on the eaves course) must sit in line (co-planar) with all the rest of the roof (in other words, don't let them sag, and you don't kick up the bottom row like you do with plain tiles)......and sits on the top of the fascia. So you'll find yourself standing at the eaves balancing 2 or 3 tiles and off cuts of battens in one hand, and a scrap of fascia in the other whilst you work out the fascia height. If in doubt, raise it 3 or 4 mm. Much better to err that way that to let them sag.


----------



## Bm101

If you want surface mounted boxes that's great. If you want flush lines why not take the opportunity to sort it now? I'd allow twice as many sockets as I thought I'd need and run it all behind the walls. If nothing else it won't gather dust like conduits. 
Just a suggestion! Don't mean to 'bully'! Sorry! Your shed!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":3ir2zire said:


> The lesson here is don't listen to Phil. :lol: Start at the bottom and work up using battens. Oddly, exactly as you're supposed to do it.


Now, to qualify that, I did say with mine I had the ceiling joists to work off. I was standing between the rafters on boards on the ceiling joists, It was really easy. Now, if I’d had the rafters closed off with OSB and insulation, I would have worked from the bottom and laid battens to work off. :? 

As for carrying the tiles at the eaves, mine sit directly on ventilation stripsattached on top the fascia boards. This gives me ventilation between membrane and tile from eaves to ridge and ridge to other side eaves, as cembrit is considered a close fitting roof covering. As mike said, it’s a case of two pieces of batten and a slate to see where the finished height line point is for the fascia.

The bottom courses for fibre tiles are recommended as a tile cut 245 and 355 to give a double bottom row, then covered with the first full tile, all lined up at the gutter overhang. So at the eaves there is actually three layers of tile for 255mm. 

Using a tile sideways doesn’t give any where to put the copper rivets to secure the uppermost tile at the eaves, and the space taken up by a two tiles is 610mm with the gapping, and a tile sideways is 600. They will go out of centre line without nudging them across a bit each time.


----------



## flying haggis

Bm101":3g6qzhon said:


> If you want surface mounted boxes that's great. If you want flush lines why not take the opportunity to sort it now? I'd allow twice as many sockets as I thought I'd need and run it all behind the walls. If nothing else it won't gather dust like conduits.
> Just a suggestion! Don't mean to 'bully'! Sorry! Your shed!


although flush fitted sockets are nicer to look at and dont protrude as much , it will be harder to alter in the future if necessary. but if you do go for flush a; leave a loop of cable between sockets then if you want to add another socket etc there will be enough slack to do it and b; if you are running cable in the wall with insulation in the cct may need derating as the insulation wont allow any heat build up to dissapate


----------



## DBT85

Blowing a gale today and in a funk so not doing anything on the build for today. Trying to wrap my head around this and all I'm getting is annoyed with myself.



MikeG.":2hik6k6w said:


> OK then, the same as slates in terms of setting out. You'll need an extra batten at the bottom to pick up the eaves course (that can be a slate turned 90 degrees). The bottom row of slates (on the eaves course) must sit in line (co-planar) with all the rest of the roof (in other words, don't let them sag, and you don't kick up the bottom row like you do with plain tiles)......and sits on the top of the fascia. So you'll find yourself standing at the eaves balancing 2 or 3 tiles and off cuts of battens in one hand, and a scrap of fascia in the other whilst you work out the fascia height. If in doubt, raise it 3 or 4 mm. Much better to err that way that to let them sag.



I think I understand. As Phil notes, with the cement tiles they advise just using 1 tile cut not quite in half for the first 2 courses which all sit under the first full course so I know I need another batten to support those, but wasn't sure where the end of them is supported. It just didn't jive with my mind that we've left this drape all the way down between the rafters but then at the bottom the tiles just sit on the membrane on top of the fascia board.

Basically the top of the fascia needs to be high enough for the tiles that sit on top of it to be co planar with the rest of the tiles which are supported on battens.



Bm101":2hik6k6w said:


> If you want surface mounted boxes that's great. If you want flush lines why not take the opportunity to sort it now? I'd allow twice as many sockets as I thought I'd need and run it all behind the walls. If nothing else it won't gather dust like conduits.
> Just a suggestion! Don't mean to 'bully'! Sorry! Your shed!



I could do it now, but at least with conduit it's always accessible. As I said in Phils thread I do actually prefer the wiring to be in the walls and not surface mounted. One one side its a cleaner finish but you really want to get all your sockets in first time out as hacking through the OSB and trying to run more in later will be a pain in the backside. Then there's the faff with fitting boxes into the insulation, chasing holes in the insulation for the cables etc.

No bullying felt at all don't worry!



Sheptonphil":2hik6k6w said:


> Now, to qualify that, I did say with mine I had the ceiling joists to work off. I was standing between the rafters on boards on the ceiling joists, It was really easy. Now, if I’d had the rafters closed off with OSB and insulation, I would have worked from the bottom and laid battens to work off. :?
> 
> As for carrying the tiles at the eaves, mine sit directly on ventilation stripsattached on top the fascia boards. This gives me ventilation between membrane and tile from eaves to ridge and ridge to other side eaves, as cembrit is considered a close fitting roof covering. As mike said, it’s a case of two pieces of batten and a slate to see where the finished height line point is for the fascia.


I was only jesting to be fair. And may have missed that salient point about you standing on the joists 

So you closed off the eaves like Mike any myself did and then fitted the ventilation strips?

Hadn't looked into this side of it at all.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":35nudwba said:


> ......Basically the top of the fascia needs to be high enough for the tiles that sit on top of it to be co planar with the rest of the tiles which are supported on battens.......l.



Precisely.

You've no need for over fascia vents. That's for a different roof type altogether.


----------



## DBT85

So there's no issue with the membrane being pinned between tile and fascia? As Phil said they are so smooth and flat they don't have the same kind of ventilation as slates offer.


----------



## MikeG.

Directly under and behind the fascia is a big open void, open to the air. A fascia vent would serve no porpoise.


----------



## DBT85

I understand a fascia vent doing nothing. I just don't understand why I can just pin the membrane between the tiles and the fascia.

Anyway, glad I got those battens on the roof. The wind today has been bad enough to take the membrane off the wall that I'd just temporarily stapled on to offer a little protection. Fortunately not all around. I'm going to have so much spare it won't matter that this bit now has holes in.


----------



## Sheptonphil

MikeG.":3e5dspy9 said:


> DBT85":3e5dspy9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......Basically the top of the fascia needs to be high enough for the tiles that sit on top of it to be co planar with the rest of the tiles which are supported on battens.......l.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely.
> 
> You've no need for over fascia vents. That's for a different roof type altogether.
Click to expand...

I have a cold roof with closed in fascia. No ventilation going past eaves other than the vent strips.


----------



## DBT85

Well after the most of the weekend off I cracked on again this morning.

First up was to get the walls insulated. I already had enough insulation here so it just needed trimming to width on the tabel saw and then cutting to length to fit around the noggins. I did the easy walls first, the long side with no windows and the doorless gable end. 






Next up was the door side and I just about managed to fix the last bit in place before my lunchtime pizza was served at 1:40. 

Pizza and Coke consumed it was time to get the window wall sorted. While I didn't quite go to the extremes that Steve Maskery went to using offcuts, I did manage to end with no big bits left over. A few skinny offcuts were used here and there where it made sense.







With that all in I marked a chalk line 1450mm up from the bottom of the lowest plate and used that as the top of my 1500mm membrane. I left it on the roll and just went round 3 sides without stopping all the way to the door. I took that end inside for now and then just used a small bit to finish off. I was getting there and it hadn't been horrible despite the gale blowing all day. This was helped by it still being on the large roll.






The remaining uncovered area on the long sides was exactly half the width of the membrane so I reeled off 7.5m, rolled it back onto the tube from the other roll and then marked it halfway and cut it with the saw. Easy. Then I could tack it on without too much fuss on the long sides, the tops around the rafter feet need finishing off.

Then The fun of a 5x 1.5m section blowing all over the place as I secured it across the door end. That was less fun on a ladder and with it billowing everywhere.

Thats where I ended for the day. First thing tomorrow I can get the rest covered and then sort the details. I've not tacked it all the way to the bottom as I might yet still do the half batten wedge wrapped in DPC on top of the bricks.


----------



## DBT85

It looks less impressive today but a bunch of bits got sorted.

I finally chopped the ends off my ridge while sitting astride it, once complete I could get the last of the membrane on and tuck it under the roof membrane on the gable rafters.

With those two sails fitted in yet another gale I neatened up the membrane around the rafter feet before cutting up some batten on the table saw to use as my arris wrapped in DPC. For the first time in a few weeks I can see my brickwork properly!






And that was basically that. I started a bit of tidying inside the workshop itself as it basically just sawdust, membrane and OSB offcuts and tools sprawled everywhere.

My wife says my erection looks much less impressive when covered in plastic. 



Stop it.


----------



## flying haggis

looking good, give yourself a well deserved pat on the back


----------



## DBT85

Forgot this one from yesterday. Nmpty






Today I'll finalyl sort the roof battens out and then work how short I am for the walls.I need to get mroe timber for the fascias and stuff so I need to get on that today as I can't really do much more to the outside without corner bits for the walls or fascia for the tiles to sit on. I think I have 1 length so I could get started.

I suppose next I'll have to make a door. Never made a door before. welp.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":173uvh53 said:


> ......Never made a door before. welp.



You've never made a workshop before either. That turned out OK, and so will the door.


----------



## DBT85

It's absolutely bucketing down here so maybe I'll find something to do that isn't crawling on the roof.


MikeG.":1e9wbhlc said:


> DBT85":1e9wbhlc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......Never made a door before. welp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've never made a workshop before either. That turned out OK, and so will the door.
Click to expand...

Yes but you don't have a useful thread on making workshop doors!


----------



## Fitzroy

I hadn’t either when I made my door and it’s fine, yes I can see light around it and the rain gets in when it blows from the east but it keeps the thieves out. 

Actually that’s all a lie my door is great although way too big, I should have taken advice and made two narrow ones not one huge one! 

With your skills and thoughtful approach you’ll nail it. 

Fitz.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Fitz!

At the moment I'm having an issue trying to source screws to hold the ridge tiles on so lets not get ahead of ourselves :lol:

Roofing superstore say that the cembrit sela screws are currently discontinued due to covid 19. Can't even find them on any other website let alone attempt to buy some.


----------



## flying haggis

DBT85":m1l7ccio said:


> It's absolutely bucketing down here so maybe I'll find something to do that isn't crawling on the roof.
> 
> 
> MikeG.":m1l7ccio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DBT85":m1l7ccio said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......Never made a door before. welp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've never made a workshop before either. That turned out OK, and so will the door.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes but you don't have a useful thread on making workshop doors!
Click to expand...

steve maskery does on his workshop build pages, might take time find though as his is over 130 pages
(edit..double doors making on page 133 onwards, cant find the single door making pages)


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":6ixohjjd said:


> Thanks Fitz!
> 
> At the moment I'm having an issue trying to source screws to hold the ridge tiles on so lets not get ahead of ourselves :lol:
> 
> Roofing superstore say that the cembrit sela screws are currently discontinued due to covid 19. Can't even find them on any other website let alone attempt to buy some.


I used these, worked perfect with predrilled 6mm holes. 

Screwfix Tec screws.
From Marley


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis":ivg45u8d said:


> steve maskery does on his workshop build pages, might take time find though as his is over 130 pages
> (edit..double doors making on page 133 onwards, cant find the single door making pages)


Thanks Haggis.

I can imagine without even looking that Steves doors are probably way above anything I've built before  Probably with Half dangle flap laps and double bolted flange goobers.


----------



## DBT85

Well half of the roof it battened apart from the last bits right at the ridge. Just taking stock of what I have and what I'll need so I can see if I can get a delivery in any reasonable time frame.

Anyway, the unvented Cembrit ridge tiles I have here have a hole in them just like this one. Its about 1/3 the way along the ridge.





I can't fathom why, as they are supposed to be secured 75mm up from the bottom edge with 2 screws on each edge.

Any ideas?


----------



## flying haggis

is it actually a hole in the ridge or just an indent


----------



## DBT85

A 4mm hole all the way through. You'd easily assume its the hole to screw it to the ridge to if they didn't specifically state they it needs 4 screws put it different locations.

I'll wait for the correct ones to arrive on friday (these are 135 degree but I needed 120 degree) and see. Though ordered from a company online, these ones came direct from Cembrit so I doubt they are "wrong".


Anyway, another day that doesn't look like much. Just the roof battens done though not cut to length yet. It took a while with bits of tile and fascia in my hands and on a worktop to work out exactly what I was doing and where the first few needed to go, then measuring, checking, measuring, checking and finally doing.

So after all that its probably wrong anyway. :lol: 







More battens, 22x100 and 50x50 arrives tomorrow. A welcome surprise as I only ordered it at 2pm. Kellaways Worcester apparently have another truck on the go now so no longer is it a week wait for everything. Maybe by the end of tomorrow I'll basically be ready to tile/clad? I still haven't even thought about a colour for paint.


----------



## DBT85

Mike have you any experience of the Bedec barn paint stains, like the Oak one for example?


----------



## MikeG.

I use Barn Paint for all my outbuildings. I've used black, cream and green in the last few years. I wouldn't use any other finish on sawn timber.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah I'm firm on using bedec, just wondering how the "medium oak" one will look on treated wood.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":97ncts92 said:


> Well half of the roof it battened apart from the last bits right at the ridge. Just taking stock of what I have and what I'll need so I can see if I can get a delivery in any reasonable time frame.
> 
> Anyway, the unvented Cembrit ridge tiles I have here have a hole in them just like this one. Its about 1/3 the way along the ridge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't fathom why, as they are supposed to be secured 75mm up from the bottom edge with 2 screws on each edge.
> 
> Any ideas?


My duo ridge are identical to that, except I don’t have any holes in the top. Hence I used four 60mm per tile. 

These pictured are for use with the Marley dry ridge vent system. A roll of vent strip Is stuck to the slates, steel supports for a centre 2x1 batten, and then these ridge tiles screwed through the top to the 2x1. You won’t have a central 2x1 batten. 

Cembrit supplied or not, they are the wrong ones.


----------



## Sheptonphil

How are you going to start tiling without putting the fascia on first? You’ll have nothing to carry the lower edge. 

And the verge? 
Have you worked out how/where that will finish, as it will be where you put your very first slate. 

Your battens look right at the bottom, are you running a 245mm batten spacing, 110mm headlap?

Looks like you’ll have this little project wrapped up by the end of July. :shock: looking really good.


----------



## mindthatwhatouch

Cracking on nicely,
Re the door. GET ON WITH IT, if I can manage it you can definitely cope. 
(Mind you I am having some shrinkage issues at the moment) :?


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":1ek33dcp said:


> My duo ridge are identical to that, except I don’t have any holes in the top. Hence I used four 60mm per tile.
> 
> These pictured are for use with the Marley dry ridge vent system. A roll of vent strip Is stuck to the slates, steel supports for a centre 2x1 batten, and then these ridge tiles screwed through the top to the 2x1. You won’t have a central 2x1 batten.
> 
> Cembrit supplied or not, they are the wrong ones.



Hmm thanks Phil.

I'll see what turns up Friday and get on to Cembrit if its the same issue. It's no major issue if I have to make a change. I have to say the Marley documentation is way better than that offered by Cembrit.



Sheptonphil":1ek33dcp said:


> How are you going to start tiling without putting the fascia on first? You’ll have nothing to carry the lower edge.
> 
> And the verge?
> Have you worked out how/where that will finish, as it will be where you put your very first slate.
> 
> Your battens look right at the bottom, are you running a 245mm batten spacing, 110mm headlap?
> 
> Looks like you’ll have this little project wrapped up by the end of July. :shock: looking really good.


Won't start till a fascia is up. I have one bit here and more arriving tomorrow.

I know roughly where the end will be but the suggestion from the materials is to site the first tile in the middle and work out toward the verges. I need to ponder more before I begin.

255 spacing and 90mm headlap on these as it's a 30 degree pitch. 

I don't know about the end of July. I hope so but I may end up back at work before the month is out which will eat into my time a little. 

Regardless, the building might be done but there will still be so much to do. Sort the garden out, fill in the moat around the slab, sort the windows and the interior out etc etc. Feels nice to be at this point already though. Shame the weather has turned to rubbish again!



mindthatwhatouch":1ek33dcp said:


> Cracking on nicely,
> Re the door. GET ON WITH IT, if I can manage it you can definitely cope.
> (Mind you I am having some shrinkage issues at the moment) :?


I shall I shall. I literally don't know where to start yet so need to have a read first.


----------



## DBT85

Holy carp I've just seen the cost of Bedec (homer)


----------



## Bm101

I looked for my shed. Mrs repainted the front . Apparentlly the other three sides 'you cant see'. 
Ok love.
I priced bedeck for the other three sides.
Ching!
Well ok! :shock:


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":7zsiwkzo said:


> [
> 
> I know roughly where the end will be but the suggestion from the materials is to site the first tile in the middle and work out toward the verges. I need to ponder more before I begin.


Work out from middle to the verges for setting out maybe, but not for laying them.
You would end up crawling all over the slates trying to do the middle ten rows!

If they could have been laid like that I wouldn’t have had such a trial at the end of my second side. You start at one end or the other, not the middle, makes no difference which end.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":26jg43a5 said:


> Holy carp I've just seen the cost of Bedec (homer)



....and you need more of it than you think. Their coverage figures are optimistic. The thing is, you'll possibly never need to repaint. Put that into the equation and isn't quite so bad.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":yznxry1f said:


> DBT85":yznxry1f said:
> 
> 
> 
> Holy carp I've just seen the cost of Bedec (homer)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....and you need more of it than you think. Their coverage figures are optimistic. The thing is, you'll possibly never need to repaint. Put that into the equation and isn't quite so bad.
Click to expand...

Did you paint both sides of your featheredge with the mist coat before fitting or just the visible parts and then a second coat when fitted?

I figured with the better part of 50m2 to cover it might be best to just bite the bullet and buy the big tin. Tho at that price you want to get the colour choice right!


----------



## RichardG

DBT85":1nz53z9w said:


> Yeah I'm firm on using bedec, just wondering how the "medium oak" one will look on treated wood.



I completed this a couple of years back and did it with medium oak. I like it which was just as well. My only issue was I decided to do the soffits and facias with it as well and the Barn paint has not lasted at all well on the planed wood. I need to sort this year so will be contacting Bedec to see what they suggest.


----------



## DBT85

Thanks for that Richard! It's probably a little darker than I was expecting so I'll keep thinking. I wonder why its not lasted as well on the planed timber.


----------



## MikeG.

Barn Paint is for sawn wood only. For planed wood you need Bedec Multi-Surface Paint. Barn Paint actually makes a good primer for MSP (and for their indoor water based gloss & eggshell paints), so I reckon they'll say just clean up the barn paint and paint over it with the MSP.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":2ydj96n1 said:


> ......Did you paint both sides of your featheredge with the mist coat before fitting or just the visible parts and then a second coat when fitted?......



A mist coat and a single proper coat all round before fixing in place (I also paint all cut ends with one heavy coat, and fit whilst wet). Then a final coat over the outside when the boarding is complete. You can spray it, but I just use a woolly 4" roller.


----------



## DBT85

Ok thanks, It'll deffo have to be a 20l tin then.

It would be nice if Bedec actually had more photos of buildings with the various colours on.


----------



## DBT85

I might be heading in a light grey with white trim kind of direction. I've literally done nothing on the workshop today yet.



MikeG.":3g3k3iki said:


> DBT85":3g3k3iki said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......Did you paint both sides of your featheredge with the mist coat before fitting or just the visible parts and then a second coat when fitted?......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A mist coat and a single proper coat all round before fixing in place (I also paint all cut ends with one heavy coat, and fit whilst wet). Then a final coat over the outside when the boarding is complete. You can spray it, but I just use a woolly 4" roller.
Click to expand...

Ohh now for some ambiguity. 

When you say all around, do you mean both faces and all edges, or just the face you see? Only while trying to decide on a colour I was reading your thread and someone asked the same question and you only said one face.


----------



## MikeG.

Did I? No, I definitely did all the faces. I took some boards off a while back to alter the window, and they were painted all round. Both faces, both edges, and both ends. I'm not sure I would do that if I were building for someone else, but for your own workshop......peace of mind and all that.......


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":3m3kx6za said:


> Did I? No, I definitely did all the faces. I took some boards off a while back to alter the window, and they were painted all round. Both faces, both edges, and both ends. I'm not sure I would do that if I were building for someone else, but for your own workshop......peace of mind and all that.......



I refer the honourable gentleman to exhibit a

http://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopi ... 4103#p4103

Nice to know it's not specifically essential.

Honestly I'm not sure on colour and can;t really clad it until I am. Not even sure if I want to fit fascias unpainted as I'll have to do them after with tiles sitting on them.


----------



## MikeG.

Curious....

Maybe my thinking evolved as I went around the building. Dunno. It's a long time ago.


----------



## MikeG.

It's certainly much easier to do the fascias beforehand, because the damn membrane gets in the way afterwards. You still have to do a quick once-over with it in situ, to cover the nail heads.


----------



## Westwood

I know you're probably set on your larch cladding idea.
But all this talk of which paint or finish to go for reminds me of why I changed my mind on same. 
I have a 4 by 5 metre log cabin which has 44mm thick external log thickness, finished with primer and three coats of stain.
That was done in 2013. And twice more since. :roll: :roll: 
Now can't wait to add external insulation - Actis - and especially, over clad it with horizontal Hardieplank.
The initial decoration was ok ish but I hate having to redecorate every few years......


----------



## MikeG.

Westwood":38zilb41 said:


> ........I hate having to redecorate every few years......



Not something you have to do with Bedec.


----------



## DBT85

Mike, another question. from what I can see on your build and Phils, battens were put along the top edge of the face of the gable rafters, I assume to give the board something to rest on.

As seen here and later in the build






In this drawing you did for me there is no batten, just a 2x2 upon which you've put the barge board. Is that 2x2 hard up against the underside of the roof battens and then a batten below that to give that support?








Westwood":2nzi8e7f said:


> I know you're probably set on your larch cladding idea.
> But all this talk of which paint or finish to go for reminds me of why I changed my mind on same.
> I have a 4 by 5 metre log cabin which has 44mm thick external log thickness, finished with primer and three coats of stain.
> That was done in 2013. And twice more since. :roll: :roll:
> Now can't wait to add external insulation - Actis - and especially, over clad it with horizontal Hardieplank.
> The initial decoration was ok ish but I hate having to redecorate every few years......


I have £600 quids worth stacked up ready to go so yeah rpetty set on it haha. Though its just treated FE, not larch or anything fancy.


----------



## MikeG.

That batten would sit up to the underside of the 2x2 in the drawing. The photo you show still has slate undercloaking in place, which I later removed and replaced with the precise detail I've drawn for you. That batten picks up the ends of the boards as you go up the gable. It's use becomes obvious when you do it, and if you left it out the ends of most of the boards would just be flapping.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":3dfi81rw said:


> That batten would sit up to the underside of the 2x2 in the drawing. The photo you show still has slate undercloaking in place, which I later removed and replaced with the precise detail I've drawn for you. That batten picks up the ends of the boards as you go up the gable. It's use becomes obvious when you do it, and if you left it out the ends of most of the boards would just be flapping.


Great thanks. I can start battening the gables now!


----------



## DBT85

A bunch more battening done, just the other gable end to finish now. I spent a fair while working out which bits of the gable to do in which order and which bits if any were going to be visible or not. EG, the 50x50 along the underside of the roof battens mustn't stick out beyond the fascia which isn't yet fitted, so I got a bit of that clamped in place to cut and fix the 50x50, then I could work out the end battens, then the battens that sit under that 2x2, and then finally all the bits in the middle. 

I've just chopped up a couple of bits of featheredge to see how far it protrudes so that I can mount the corner detail appropriately. That's with a 40mm overlap.











The LED panels also arrived so are tucked away. I'm waiting for the electrician to let me know when he can come and fit a CU in the workshop and hook me up with some power while I progress.

Still no closer on paint.

Richard G do you have any more photos of your garage I can look at?


----------



## Sw1fty

Hi All,

First post on the forum so please be gentle...

I have been following along with your build and have to say it looks absolutely fantastic, incredible work ! I am in the process of planning my own workshop which I think will be pretty similar, I have found your experiences and knowledge very helpful in honing my ideas but also driving along my enthusiasm to get it kicked off.

I just wanted to add another vote of support for the Bedec Barn Paint, I have a log cabin painted with it on recommendation and it is great, definitely not the cheapest but worth it. I have Forest Green, I appreciate you said you were thinking grey/white but would be more than happy to send some pictures of the green if it were helpful.

Swifty


----------



## DBT85

Swifty if you could it would be great, you might have to have 3 posts or something to be allowed to post pics. I can't remember. Glad my ramblings have been useful for you!

I'm at the point where I could kind of do the roof or the walls but can't do either until I've picked a colour. There are other jobs to do like paint the inside or run the SWA, tidy up etc, but those are all boring bits!

So yes. Photos please! It's surprisingly difficult to find examples of various colours, or you find one you like and the buggger didn't mention what colour they used!

I might actually make a thread on that very subject.


----------



## MikeG.

This and my workshop are Country Cream.






The potting shed is Dark Green. I always use semi-gloss. Incidentally, it only had one full coat at that point, so looks patchy. It darkened up a bit and got more even when the second coat was applied.


----------



## Sw1fty

I couldn't agree more about colours, you know what you don't like instantly...but finding what you do seems overly complex ! I am really happy with the Forest Green, part of the cabin was originally stained (Medium oak I think) and although on paper it looked ok I never liked it, too yellow, the green has made it blend in rather than stand out.

Thanks for the heads up on the pictures, I just took one of the tin with my phone so will try that and if it works will get a better camera to get some decent pictures in the sunshine...if not then I am 1 post closer :lol:






If the colour looks like an option for you then I would be more than happy to stick some in the post.


----------



## DBT85

That photo with your phone looks fine to me mate, just go with that!

Thanks for the offer on the paint, but I'll just buy some and get it done. Even testing a patch is never the same as looking at a 14sqm wall!


In other news, the new ridge tiles have arrived. I initially thought they'd sent the same graphite colour as before but they are in fact slightly different. Apart from each other you'd never know but when side by side you can just about tell. If anything it's actually easier when looking at the photo. They aren't as black as the actual tiles but at an angle with glare you're probably not going to see it. Though why they don't use the same colours I don't know.

120 deg bl/blk - bl/blk Jutland slate - 135 deg Graphite





120deg bl/blk - 135deg Graphite





120deg bl/blk & bl/blk Jutland slate





I have asked why they have a hole in the top and shall receive communication from someone in the technical dept soon apparently.

Looks to me like its supposed to be fitted like this to me. But this is a Marley photo, not a Cembrit one. I can't find anything from Cembrit that shows this fixing method.


----------



## Sw1fty

ok...well the overriding feeling here is embarrassment for the state of the garden and disrepair of the cabin ! However, as promised, here are a couple of pictures. I took a few that varied in brightness as the clouds were blowing over, these 2 look to be the best representation of the colour.

Please don't judge me...I am in the middle of some jobs here and wasn't expecting anyone to see it in this state


----------



## Bm101

DBT85":3lgg1bzv said:


> I have asked why they have a hole in the top and shall receive communication from someone in the technical dept soon apparently.


They're for the skyhooks mate.
:wink:


----------



## DBT85

That's the other gable battened out. My workshop currently looks like a Tron tribute. 

I then spent some time sorting these corner details out. Making sure I had the battens in the right place, 25x100 in the right place and 25x65 in the right place, as per Mikes drawing. 






I secured a bit of 45x45 to the batten which gave me the leading edge I needed to mount to as that's how far my FE will protrude as measured from my 200mm demo section pictured earlier. Trying to hold up bits in the wind and measure and screw them was pointless so this solved that as I had something I could clamp the 25x100 to as well.

45x45 mounted to batten as a gauge and clamping point





Once finished the 25x65 bit to be painted was sticking out way past the brickwork. NOOOOOO I specifically did the brick and block plinth to help avoid this. I got it wrong.  Fortunately it was only a test run with everything screwed in place. I had the 25x100 mounted so that IT would cover the whole ends of the FE, which then meant that the 25x65 trim would stick out past it. Once I worked that out I re fitted and now it looks much better.

Fitted correctly, and nicely aligned with the plinth





What I'm still working out is the top. This test was just using an offcut for the 25x65 bit, so its only 600mm long and down at the bottom of the wall. For the top I need to work out where it will end, because there is a barge board to come down under the tiles as well as a fascia to fit to the plumb cut on the rafters. I don't the fiddly details, they don't show huge progress in just a few hours like framing or getting walls up!

What to do at the top for the corner detail.





It's now pouring with rain again. So I can work this out, then look at more paint and maybe just finalyl tidy up inside the workshop as its still a dump. I had hoped to start on tidying the garden too.



Sw1fty":2b35wvr9 said:


> ok...well the overriding feeling here is embarrassment for the state of the garden and disrepair of the cabin ! However, as promised, here are a couple of pictures. I took a few that varied in brightness as the clouds were blowing over, these 2 look to be the best representation of the colour.
> 
> Please don't judge me...I am in the middle of some jobs here and wasn't expecting anyone to see it in this state


Thanks for the pics! I really do appreciate it. I can show them to the good lady and see.

To make you feel better, here is the messy area in my garden. Yours is fine!


----------



## MikeG.

The bottom planks should stick out past the line of the corner boards. I took my line from up the wall where the effect of the wedge at the bottom has gone away....but you got to that point by yourself.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":2818zyvk said:


> The bottom planks should stick out past the line of the corner boards. I took my line from up the wall where the effect of the wedge at the bottom has gone away.


I have done the same mike. There are 3 small boards pinned up and my measurement is taken from there, so the bottom boards with the wedge will stick out.

Am I taking the 25x65 corner boards all the way to the underside of the roof? 

I'll note that if I do that it overlaps the 50x50 that's also on the underside of the roof, which means the barge board can't run all the way down unless its spaced out, which it would probably need to be anyway to go over the FE.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":3fmmkk6t said:


> .......I'll note that if I do that it overlaps the 50x50 that's also on the underside of the roof, which means the barge board can't run all the way down unless its spaced out, which it would probably need to be anyway to go over the FE.



I'm not 100% sure what lies underneath, but this is what that detail looks like from the outside. First, my house:







....and secondly, my workshop:


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Mike. I appreciate the extra photos!

As suspected the barge comes down over the wall detail so I'll probably chuck another strip of this up there over the 2x2 to then fix the barge to later. No rush at least as its not stopping anything else from proceeding.

Well I'm done for the day. Daddy duties bode.

All 4 corner details are now fixed in place with a few screws. I can secure them more while painting them.

I do need to decide if I want to fill this gap in the support for the corner detail. The gap you'd be able to see would be minimal. You can just about see the support in the next photo. I should do it shouldn't I really.










I removed my test featheredge and refitted once the corner detail was done to see how it looked. I'm happy with that. The bottom board is just pinned in place poking out a bit, I've not gone to the effort of doing the wedges yet, let alone taking the corner off of the feather edge.





Now that I can see where the fascia will end (as I now know where the barge board will come down) I can sort those tomorrow and do the juggling act of trying to work out how high it needs to be to keep my tiles supported properly. I think I'll tape the 3 bits I have together so at least I've a few less things to worry about. Maybe by Monday I can actually start tiling.

I also need to sort out around the door. I see Mike used some 25 by something as the end point for the cladding. Naturally I have some 25x150 here and I'd need 25x175 ish to cover the osb, stud, batten and cladding all around the door.


Mike, incidentally why did you route a cove in the bottom board rather than just taking the corner off with a table saw? I get why it's there, just not why a cove rather than a straight cut.


----------



## MikeG.

Because I don't own a table saw, but do own a router!


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":13d74jl6 said:


> Because I don't own a table saw, but do own a router!


Ah ha! In that case I can save myself considerable ballache!


----------



## DBT85

It seems we might have decided on colour. We like the appeal of a stain rather than a paint but the medium oak appears a little too orange for our liking (I say this as a man with a ginger wife!) so after seeing this in the mahogany bedec we're probably going in that direction. Brewers want £250 for a 20l tin which is £50 more than online places. If anyone knows what it's like with a trade account I'd appreciate it. 

EDIT: After having another look side by side and on a proper screen rather than a OLED phone with the chroma cranked up, we're now back with Medium Oak :lol: 





In other news the electrician can't come for 3 weeks, on the up side that gives me time to basically it all in and ready to do and tested in one day.

Cembrit also got back to me and said that they used to suggest 4 screws per ridge tile but that they are now manufactured with the hole in so now only require the 1 fixing. They've just not updated the materials yet.

A bit of a pain as I now imagine I'll need to get on the ridge with tiles to see how much I need to batten out the ridge if anything.


----------



## Inspector

Dumb question I suppose but is there a recommended sealant for those tiles that could be squirted into the hole to plug it up while still on the ground?

Pete


----------



## Sheptonphil

Inspector":1fixugh0 said:


> Dumb question I suppose but is there a recommended sealant for those tiles that could be squirted into the hole to plug it up while still on the ground?
> 
> Pete


That’s where I’d be going as well, small patch of self stick flashing on the inside, maybe a small patch outside as well, then fix with four screws as old system. If you want some flashing to do it, I have lots I can send you more than enough to patch those holes. You’d never see it either.


----------



## DBT85

No need to fill it, it gets filled/covered with the screw and rubber washer. So now there will be 1 hole to seal with that washer per tile, rather than the old way of 4 per tile. 

Cembrit have changed their mounting guidance but not updated their documentation. I got that direct from Cembrit.


----------



## Inspector

I misunderstood. I thought it had to have the 4 screws and that hole was redundant. 

Pete


----------



## DBT85

Inspector":18ieli8r said:


> I misunderstood. I thought it had to have the 4 screws and that hole was redundant.
> 
> Pete


Ah, no I thought it was, but after clarification they've just changed how to do it and not bothered to tell anyone.

I've found Marley documentation to be better than Cembrit for basically the exact same product.


----------



## DBT85

Little done today and the same will be true for tomorrow. My wifes mum is a currently reluctant American so we had hot dogs and stuff today. 

I did finally manage to clean out the workshop so there is no longer a pile of nails and sawdust on everything and the piles of rubbish that were everywhere are all now neatly up one end. 

Then I went around the outside and picked up all the rubbish that had fallen by the wayside, bits of foam or insulation and the odd nail before starting on the piles of timber left and sorting them out. Our gardeners brother is taking all the 60x60mm strips of insulation off my hands to do his garage Maskery style so I need to get those sorted for tomorrow. Nice to not have to dispose of it.

I've got until probably Wednesday before I can buy the paint (once my trade account is activated and I can use my 20% off) so I have until then to sort out my fascias, as well as door lining, and anything else that needs to be ready.

One thing I'm not sure on yet is the windows. I have enough material to just board over them as they are still covered in membrane and OSB and putting them in is not at the top of my priority list. Cutting the cladding flush later once I've opened the hole up won't be an issue will it? The battens are all in place around the sides and bottom as you can see in the photos.


----------



## MikeG.

Why not just fit the windows?


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":nmr63a1l said:


> Why not just fit the windows?


I don't have them, I don't know how to make frames, I don't know when I'm going to be back at work, I don't know if I've got the money right now, I don't know when I'm going to get around to them.

Priorities are getting a door of some kind on, painting and cladding the walls and roof, painting the inside, laying the floating floor, getting electrics in, etc.

On that basis, I'd rather not have a hole in the cladding and membrane taking the brunt for an indeterminate amount of time when I can easily just clad over the hole and remove it later. I can't think of a reason it would be an issue.

The only things I've ever really made are a wobbly as fork dining table that is cupped to all hell and racks like Melinda Messenger (but it cost me £200 in pine and a few hours and has done its job as an 8ft table that I don't care if the kid draws on), my workbench, the gokart for the kid and now this. I can't just decide to do a door or a window frame and it happens. Conversely you probably can do them in your sleep!


----------



## MikeG.

Ah, my mistake. I thought you'd got the choice of a few kicking around the place.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":o7oflnvn said:


> Ah, my mistake. I thought you'd got the choice of a few kicking around the place.


Ah no, I did but they were the ones that were just too wide. They looked good in the mockup but I think one was nigh on 1700 wide.


----------



## DBT85

Absolutely sod all done today, but I saw my mum and dad for the first time since the start of March so it was 100% worth it.

Both utterly stunned at what I've done so far.

I did get my dad to bring his small collection of Wagos with him so I could hook up a few emergency panels in the workshop until the electrician comes in 3 weeks. I successfully managed to connect all 3 wires in my flex to the wrong terminals in the plug. I literally have no idea how. I've done enough of them to know and I even remember looking at the plug and seeing the L, E and N markings and still got it wrong.

Naturally the board tripped and my cojones were not fried. My dad laughed his bits off as in another life he was an electrical engineer!

Tomorrow I get fascias cut, fill a few gaps in the OSB and see what else I can be doing. Hoping to have paint in hand by Wednesday.

I think I'll have to hire some kind of tower for the tiling though as all I have are ladders, none of which are technically roof ladders.


----------



## Westwood

Wago ?


----------



## DBT85

Westwood":1w7pa1bw said:


> Wago ?


Think screwless choc bloc. Very useful.


----------



## MikeG.

You don't need roof ladders. You've just built a permanent one in up the roof. However, a tower scaffold at the eaves is absolutely necessary. You'll do much of the roof off it before climbing on the roof to do the high bits. Set your tower up so that the eaves are about shin or knee level when standing on it, if you can.


----------



## DBT85

Righto I'll sort one out.


----------



## DBT85

First fascias cut to length and test fitted to height. I just taped the 3 tiles that will sit on top of it together to give me less to juggle.

Anything looking stupid here?


----------



## Sheptonphil

Looks to be laid out perfect. The line looks flat between three battens and the fascia. Slates look a few mm low, but I guess you’re lining the fascia up here, not tile finish line. 

Definitely need scaffold tower. I hired a 2.4 metre one for a fortnight, cost £120 though. Couldn’t have got the slates on the roof to load out, let alone lay them without it. You can lay first five or six rows from the scaffold as you move along, then climb the battens to fix the diagonals as you go up.


----------



## flying haggis

if you have the gutter and brackets check that the tile edge ends roughly in the middle of the gutter before fixing them down


----------



## DBT85

I'll arrange a scaffold tower then, hopefully I can get it done in a week but no bother if longer.

I don't have the gutter yet, but cembrit advice is to have the tiles overhang 50mm for 100mm gutters and thats what I marked up for my initial batten placement. I didn't measure the tiles into the exact correct place for this, I just screwed them down to get a line to work to.

Its feeling like slow days despite tinkering away most of the day, though I was on shopping duty first thing this morning. A couple of muffins and pan au raisins later work began.

I started off by finishing off the emergency lighting. I can now at least potter in there with light of an evening until the electrician comes in 3 weeks. Some of the 12 panels I have will be mounted like this, though not necessarily in this exact position. So this gives me an idea of how much light I'm working with and where it's being cast. When I do it properly the drivers will be hidden, though the flex will have to be on show albeit white against a white wall. I'll have to notch the frames to allow the flex in and out but it's only thin metal.

Emergency lighting





With that done I finally cut my fascias after first screwing up some offcuts to give me a position to work to. Faffing around trying to measure with a tape over 5-7m is a pain in the butt, so I just cut the first one to end on a rafter foot and then offered up a second to make it where it needed to be cut. Tidy. 

With the length sorted I taped together my 3 tiles which will form the eaves and secured them to a batten, from there I could see how high the fascia needed to be and put a couple of screws in along the fascia to hold it there. It'll come off for painting.

Eaves tiles taped, though I guess I could have just used a straight edge for this bit.





Fascia on and lots of rafter foot on show. Too much?





Next was the joyus job of trimming all the roof battens. 23 (I think) on each side so 92 all in. Most cut from atop the roof with the couple nearer the eaves done from the ladder. I sat and thought about it for about 10 minutes before cutting, pondering not only whether I should just use the tracksaw (I didn't), but also whether my brain was working right and I was correct in my thinking of where I needed to cut them. Checking a few reference photos and yes, they need to be behind the barge board and I know exactly where that needs to be.

Off they all came and then I stuck some treatment on the ends just in case. 

Next up was to cut those tiny filler bits for the corner details I questioned about the other day. Easy job. Then I got the corner details off, fitted the fillers and added a few more screws to hold everything together.

Onto the door hole and at last I cut some of the 25x150 to size and secured it in place. I only put a bit of 25x100 at the top becase I don't have any more 25x150. Since I have to add extra to the 25x150 anyway to span the whole distance required I'll just do the same at the top with whatever I have left.

Battens cut, fascias fitted, door defined





Just before finishing up I started on working out my wedge size and bottom featheredge detail. Since I have a table saw I took the corner off of one of my small test bits to see how it looked. Not as fancy as the routed finish Mike used but It'll still work and can't be seen anyway.

That was that for the day. I'm really looking forward to having my paint so I can start making the large satisfying strides that make you feel like you actually got somewhere each day.

Last but not least, I now have some modicum of a deadline. I shall once again be broadcasting sports to the Nordic regions as of the 23rd of July and Premier League to everywhere except the UK from the 30th. So yay money coming. Somehow does't FEEL like a happy thing though! Desire is to get the roof and walls clad and a door fitted before then. Anything else is a bonus.


----------



## Sheptonphil

I know where your coming from, a whole day of useful bits that had to be done for the next large jobs. and it looks as though you’d had _another_ day off. 

Looks the business.


----------



## Bm101

Looking good man. When the emergency lighting comes on in my shed it's the windows and the sun has come out. :wink: 
#proper job


----------



## DBT85

Brewers account activated. Hurrah. 

20l tin of Bedec reduced to £180 with the voucher a new trade account gets. Hurrah.

Possibly a week for it to be in stock. FML.

Given that I don't want to go back to work with the roof and walls not clad, I'm going to take the decision to not wait to paint the fascias before the tiles go up. It's not ideal but it'll just have to do. There's no way I can do the roof and the walls in a week.

The reason I don't want it left as once I'm back at work properly I'm away for 4 or 5 days at a time and when I'm back I try to get at least some time with my wife and kid, so Id rather not be tackling these big jobs that you just want to plough through all day.

With that in mind, a tower will be here at 9 tomorrow morning. I'd better work out what the hell I'm doing then really!


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2240fmgk said:


> Brewers account activated. Hurrah.
> 
> With that in mind, a tower will be here at 9 tomorrow morning. I'd better work out what the hell I'm doing then really!


Get your slates close enough along the sides to start loading the roof when you get the scaffold.

keep them well back, 5-6 feet as they'll be in your way as you work up the roof. Ask me how I know!!


----------



## Inspector

That big red tractor you had come over to move bricks will save you a lot of slate humping and time if you can get it back to levitate the slates to the roof,,,,,,,,,unless you've come to enjoy the work. :wink: (hammer) 

Pete


----------



## DBT85

The slates are close enough to the far side of the workshop already so once it's up I can start loading. I figured I'd do that side first to learn as nobody will ever see it!

Frankly today was another rubbish day although it has reinforced my plan to get the roof done ASAP.

A late start coupled with the trip to get the interior paint, other home duties and the torrential downpour limited my actual progress to... sealing the 8 cut ends of the fascia.

I spent a bit of the afternoon making up a couple of jigs for tile cutting so that I'm not trying to measure and then hold a straight edge in place on the 46 eaves slates or all the doubles that will go up the verge. Those templates also include the holes for rivets on those verge slates so hopefully some of the brain work is already done. It also meant I was making my mistakes on the ground in the dry rather than on a scaffold in the pouring rain. The one I did make is of no consequence as the tile can be used elsewhere.

While in the dry of the workshop (and the slightly warmer as it was cold AF in the rain) and with my emergency lights on (which dim when I turn my tracksaw on!) I noticed a couple of drips coming from the rafter ties. I know the membrane is good as it was pooling with water at the rafter feet behind the fascia, I guess nail and staple holes were letting a little in. The rain was constant for about 2 hours and the worst it got was a couple of tennis ball sized damp spots on the floor. With an actual roof over it it'll never be a problem.

I did also calculate my verge overhang so hopefully with the scaffold and the 70% chance of rain tomorrow I can get started.






I really need to make some progress.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2itle1zm said:


> The
> I spent a bit of the afternoon making up a couple of jigs for tile cutting so that I'm not trying to measure and then hold a straight edge in place on the 46 eaves slates or all the doubles that will go up the verge.


You shouldn’t need a straight edge to measure the eaves slates. Your first one will be on the extreme left or right. Put a tile on the opposite end in the correct position. Run a string line half inch up from the finished edge (on the edge line if you wish, but I found half inch up easier) and work to the string line, same as you would for brickwork.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":2mmusgdt said:


> DBT85":2mmusgdt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The
> I spent a bit of the afternoon making up a couple of jigs for tile cutting so that I'm not trying to measure and then hold a straight edge in place on the 46 eaves slates or all the doubles that will go up the verge.
> 
> 
> 
> You shouldn’t need a straight edge to measure the eaves slates. Your first one will be on the extreme left or right. Put a tile on the opposite end in the correct position. Run a string line half inch up from the finished edge (on the edge line if you wish, but I found half inch up easier) and work to the string line, same as you would for brickwork.
Click to expand...

I'm only talking about cutting them Phil. No point marking and trying to hold a straight edge in one place while I score the tiles every time when a bit of osb screwed to another bit of osb eliminates it all.


----------



## DBT85

Scaffold arrived





Tentativly plodding away. Though now I feel much more comfortable.


----------



## DBT85

The heavens have opened once more and while I am stupid I'm not a fool. Time to stop for the day.

All in all happy enough with the progress, it feels quite slow but I've got the first verge finished now so I can just bang up the next 170 odd standard slates without too much fuss and then deal with the other verge. 

The time spent thinking yesterday was well worth it, if nothing else it helped me wrap my head around it a bit more. As with everything it all clicks together once you've been at it all day. I've even stopped forgetting to put rivets in under the eaves tiles where needed. One thing that did come up was that my sums were out. Somehow I'd calculated that my tiles would overhang the end of the fascia board by 70mm. Fortunately I checked by nailing both ends up and measuring the distance and spotted the error. It should be 35mm. 

Slate cutting was easy enough with the scribe tool from Hardy though I only cut one on the ridge. Since its rinse and repeat I batched a bunch out inside as well as drilling the appropriate holes for nails and rivets. 

I got to the ridge and my brain did a little melt. I'd ended the penultimate tile on the batten just like all the others and cut the final tile to length. I kept looking at it thinking it must be wrong, that there wasn't enough lap from the ridge down to the penultimate course. A trip down to check the Marley documentation (because the Cembrit stuff is rubbish) and sure enough mine looks the same as the picture so happy days. To be sure I hopped up with a ridge tile and sure enough the edge of it comes down far enough that I'm happy. I'll cut the rest of the pemultimate row a little longer anyway.






My to do list includes cutting a bunch more first and second course tiles as well as 23 top course and 21 penultimate course tiles to size. With those done I can just hoof them onto the roof and get them up without stopping to cut tiles on the roof all the time. 

I'll have to make sure I give myself an escape route on the other side of the roof!

So there we have it. Some progress at last.


----------



## DBT85

Another one of those days. A haircut (finally), a meeting and the wettest July in memory have helped contribute to about 14 tiles going up compared to yesterday.

I started off by getting to the ridge with some batten. I was going to need to put some on the ridge itself to help screw the ridge to anyway, but I had a cunning plan. While my penultimate and top slates were apparently ok, it still left me feeling irked. A solution presented itself easily enough. Take the penultimate tile right up to the batten on the ridge, and nail the top tiles to the ridge batten itself. A much larger lap is achieved below the ridge tile. I'll get a pic tomorrow.

So batten up, new 1.5 tile cut, drilled, part nailed, nails removed because I forgot the farkin rivet, rivet in place, secured again, top tile cut and secured in place. 

Next up I wanted some string lines to make sure things were running right. Just pinned under the ends of the eaves slates and taught around a nail at the opposite end. I now have 3 handy trip wires on the working side of the roof because it's not hazardous enough up there.

I sat and tiled in some rain before it really started belting down. Time to get off the roof before I slide off it.





It looks pitiful compared to yesterday but I've sorted some bits out and worked out how best to place the rivets for the next tiles so I'll take it for now. Tomorrow I have a whole day to myself and only 10% chance of rain with good weather for the next 4 or 5 days, at last. The ground around the workshop is like a bog.

I already had 50 odd tiles in the workshop ready for cutting to size so I took the chance in the pouring rain to get those done. I now have enough cut to do all the 1st, 2nd and penultimate tiles without cutting on this side of the roof. The penultimate ones are a bit of a pain as I need to cut 20mm off the end. They score easily enough but with not much material to grab hold of snapping the waste off isn't easy, so a little grabby jig later and I could do them in short order.

Tiles cut and ready and a few template tiles used to cut and drill others





Maybe, just maybe, I can make better progress tomorrow.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Plodding progress, but progress none the less. You’ll have it wrapped at the weekend. 

What are you going to screw the ridge tiles to? There’s no central batten, unless there’s one under the membrane.


----------



## DBT85

There's a central batten now, it was part of my revised ridge arrangement.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1wpzknvm said:


> There's a central batten now, it was part of my revised ridge arrangement.


Ah, excellent. Didn’t want you tiling up to the top before thinking about it.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":l95f5p0i said:


> DBT85":l95f5p0i said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a central batten now, it was part of my revised ridge arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, excellent. Didn’t want you tiling up to the top before thinking about it.
Click to expand...

I could have just screwed into the ridge if I'd needed to. When I get the photo tomorrow you'll see this is a better arrangement of tiles at the ridge and will give me a better lap with the top 2 courses and ridge tiles.


----------



## Westwood

Couple of tips for your ridge: if you're bedding and pointing the tiles with mortar, be careful with those tiles as they show every stain. Mask up and use stout cover sheets below the ridge when pointing, and along any route up and across the roof where you're carrying mortar.
Second tip- not sure where you're based but be careful about the sand in your mortar. Coastal and other locations often supply unwashed sand with high salts content. Result : you get staining after completion which shows particularly on matt dark tiles. Solution; ask your supplier about the sand origin and double wash it yourself to be sure.
Apologies if you know all this or its not relevant but in my job, I see so many newly tiled roofs wrecked by staining from high level mortar, which often doesn't show up till well after the roofer has gone and been fully paid. :shock:


----------



## DBT85

No mortar. 1 screw per tile.

Easy peasy.


----------



## flying haggis

to me. one screw doesnt seem enough, i would drill another hole and add another screw.


----------



## DBT85

A nice day for it today. It still spat a bit but no torrential rain. Shocking news. When you're not getting urinated on from a great height you can actually get things done!

Its not been easy moving the scaffold around the soggy clay surrounding the workshop but its now at its final resting place for that side of the roof. I even already have my ladder set up on the other side as an escape route.

First up is a better view on the revised top 2 rows of tiles. I'm sure all can agree its a much better solution with much less chance for water ingress.






I got plenty done today and am now 9 tiles from the point that I have to start the other verge. I did get the tape measure out to check my laps and make a few minor corrections along the roof as I was worried about getting to the other end and being out. Most importantly I got to the other end with my first course and everything fit so my spacings were ok. 










flying haggis":1csp5qc6 said:


> to me. one screw doesnt seem enough, i would drill another hole and add another screw.


I could, it cant hurt and I can only buy the things in bags of a billion. But it seems to be a standard way of doing it. One screw will easily hold my 105kg weight so its more an issue of distribution than holding power if anything.


----------



## DBT85

The roof is half done! Hurrah.

I'd hoped to get a bit more done but some bits came up, I was at least about to start prep for tomorrow which will be getting the first verge done on the visible side of the workshop.

The biggest faff in all honesty has been moving the scaffold around as its been so wet. Fortunately it was easy enough for the final bit on that verge and now it'll be fine on the other side of the workshop.

Tomorrow will only be a half day so I can enjoy a film and some popcorn with my little girl, then Monday I can get into it full swing and see how far along I can get! I do need to get the screws to hold the ridge tiles down so may well go fetch them tomorrow or Monday.

Is there any reason I can't be putting ridge tiles on as I'm going along rather than doing it all at the end?

Still working out my shopping list for electrical bits inside too.


----------



## Inspector

Tiles are looking good. If they were available here they would be a premium product and hard to find. I've never seen any here, other types of tiles like Red Spanish tiles yup but not those. I don't see why you wouldn't put the ridge tiles on as you move along. No chance of anything breaking when you go back to do it. Out out curiosity what kind of wind rating do they have? 

Pete


----------



## Bm101

Crikey Holmes! The Game is afoot! Or Possibly second breakfast. Po-Ta-Toes.


----------



## flying haggis

putting the ridge on as you work along seems reasonable and i think would be easier as at least you are standing on a "ladder" and not smooth tiles


----------



## Sheptonphil

Looking a smashing job there. 

I certainly put my ridge on as I did the tiling. When it came to a point a ridge tile could be fitted, on it popped. 

Makes for a nice looking roof doesn’t it? A lot more expensive than sheet roofing, and more work to instal, but what a difference in looks. 

Hard work nearly finished now. The cladding and interior are child’s play in comparison to what you have achieved.


----------



## flying haggis

looking good and it blends in well with the nature around it


----------



## DBT85

Thanks chaps. Looking forward to getting the roof all done and the cladding on.

I've gone and burned the back of my neck over the last few days. My tan all came while I was a hairy sod during lockdown, now that I've had it cut back my neck was the only bit that was still pastey white!

No idea on the numbers for wind loads Pete, but their documentation just says it will meet BS12345 standards if laid to BS123123512 standards.

Will pick up the ridge screws and a load of guttering and electrical bits ready to get some done if my paint is further delayed.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Just looked again at the finished side, if you’ve got half hour to spare this afternoon, the hedge could do with a trim, the birds have fledged by now.  

(That’s the way my Mrs thinks)


----------



## DBT85

Ha, technically that side isn't my problem!

We'll let it grow as there are a lot of blackberries in there. The side near the workshop though is enjoying the light now that a few trees were removed so will need a regular prune.

The rains have come again. I'm about 1/3 through this side of the roof and my first 2 ridge tiles are in place.

Guttering and sockets/conduit all arriving tomorrow so if there's a delay on the barn paint I can get started painting the walls and banging sockets up.


----------



## DBT85

Well its still not done, but the end is nigh.

With the rain stopping play quite early yesterday the plan today was to just crack on and do as much as I could.

With the scaffold now much easier to move around I managed to get all the way to the point where I now just have to deal with the final verge. That'll be fun. When I did the other side I could just escape down this side when I was finished. I'll have no such luxury this time. Fortunately this scaffold goes to 3m if I need it which I think I probably will.

All that remains





Ridge tiles on and finishing it off nicely





A huge box of sockets, conduit fittings and gutter fitting arrived today. With the roof soon to be complete I can worry about painting the inside. I didn't want to do that while I was still getting drips in places. Once its got paint up I can do my sockets and get the SWA in ready for whenever the electrician is coming.

Can't wait to not be on the roof any more. My backside is so sore and bruised from sitting on battens all day.


----------



## DBT85

Done. Finally. 






Tomorrow I can finish off some little OSb bits inside under the ridge and maybe get some white on the walls.

So pleased to be done with the roof!


----------



## marcros

not that keen on the Mock Tudor beams to be honest :mrgreen:


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":2ewf9f19 said:


> Well its still not done, but the end is nigh.
> 
> Can't wait to not be on the roof any more. My backside is so sore and bruised from sitting on battens all day.


Nice looking job, well done. =D> =D> 

My bruises lasted for a week, back of legs and cheeks so sore it was difficult to sit at night. Don’t know how roofers do it day after day, I was glad to see the back of that job. All down hill now.


----------



## MikeG.

Fantastic. That's a big moment in the build.

When's the topping-out party?


----------



## DBT85

I went into the kitchen this morning and thought "OK I can get outside soon" and then realised no more roof to climb. A large grin appeared.


----------



## Lons

DBT85":2w45dpd9 said:


> A large grin appeared.


How do you get away with that? If I grin for no obvious reason the question posed would be " what are you up to now?" or "what have you bought?".......As if. :roll:


----------



## DBT85

Lons":2fl2yrza said:


> DBT85":2fl2yrza said:
> 
> 
> 
> A large grin appeared.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you get away with that? If I grin for no obvious reason the question posed would be " what are you up to now?" or "what have you bought?".......As if. :roll:
Click to expand...

Ha, she pointed out the bruise the size of a saucer on my backside so she knows exactly why I'm grinning!


----------



## Westwood

".....and then realised no more roof to climb. A large grin appeared."
Read this too quickly, thought you wrote, A large gin appeared


----------



## Lons

DBT85":3gj1lxxd said:


> Lons":3gj1lxxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DBT85":3gj1lxxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> A large grin appeared.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you get away with that? If I grin for no obvious reason the question posed would be " what are you up to now?" or "what have you bought?".......As if. :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ha, she pointed out the bruise the size of a saucer on my backside so she knows exactly why I'm grinning!
Click to expand...

My wife would have said "where did you get that?"


> ".....and then realised no more roof to climb. A large grin appeared."
> Read this too quickly, thought you wrote, A large gin appeared



Now a large gin can be a good reason for a grin. :wink:


----------



## DBT85

With no hope at all of getting the cladding done (still no paint) and no materials or an idea where to start on a door and work looming on Wednesday, I started on the inside instead. First up was to cover the void under the ridge. Some OSB cut to width and then with a shallower angle than the roof cut on either side meant it went up quite well. Then it was time to paint. Yay.

1st coat done






15l of paint later and it's as done as it's going to get. Sadly I don't have a nice Graco sprayer like Phil so it was all done with a roller. One downside of the OSB is that with all the little surface voids it can be a pain getting a perfect finish, but at the end of the day it's only a workshop. I'm happy enough. It was at least nice to have it completely empty while painting so none of the usual trying to move things around or climb over stuff as you go.

With that done I started mounting the frames for some of the lights. I'm putting 4 up on the ceiling either side in the vaulted section and then 2 each at either end mounted on the underside of the joists. Those will probably be added to in time to balance the light out a bit if I feel like it needs it.

6 LED panel mounts up





Very short day today as its movie day and then I've decided to give myself the afternoon watching the F1 and the football, something I've not actually done since its all come back as I've been doing all this. 

Once the lights are mounted I can start on sorting sockets out and running the SWA and ethernet in.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":1nie76zj said:


> Sadly I don't have a nice Graco sprayer like Phil so it was all done with a roller.
> 
> With that done I started mounting the frames for some of the lights. I'm putting 4 up on the ceiling either side in the vaulted section and then 2 each at either end mounted on the underside of the joists. Those will probably be added to in time to balance the light out a bit if I feel like it needs it.


Sprayer took thirty five minutes a coat  , cracks and all painted, no neck ache. Almost worth hiring one for a day. You can do the two coats in one day. 

Think the eight lights in that space will be super bright 8) 8) 8) . I have four in that length and it’s probably overkill. Might be worth wiring half up on a fly lead and see effect. Perhaps two either side and two in the middle suspended may give more even light?

All the same, looking good. Now get back to work, us retired need you to pay our pensions.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil":8nnrpa7q said:


> Sprayer took thirty five minutes a coat  , cracks and all painted, no neck ache. Almost worth hiring one for a day. You can do the two coats in one day.
> 
> Think the eight lights in that space will be super bright 8) 8) 8) . I have four in that length and it’s probably overkill. Might be worth wiring half up on a fly lead and see effect. Perhaps two either side and two in the middle suspended may give more even light?
> 
> All the same, looking good. Now get back to work, us retired need you to pay our pensions.



Yeah I wish I'd invested in a decent sprayer 5 years ago when we moved in to be honest. Our living room is 8m long 4.5m wide with similarly raised ceilings and it was all new plaster on the walls. It never seemed to flippin end!

With regard to the lights, It may end up a bit bright but I'm ok with that. Don't forget mine are not pointing straight down like yours are either. The top 4 are nearly 3m off the ground and pointing down at 30 degrees. Sadly I've run out of cable so I've only actually got 4 mounted. The frames were at least easy enough to snip notches out of for the cables.

With no cable to continue (and screwfix not having any either) I cracked on mounting sockets and conduit. I got a nice height with my little laser level (step 4 on my ladder!) and put the first ones in 50cm from the wall and then divided the gap into a number that looked ok. They are on about 815mm centres in the end Way more than I'll ever need, but I'll never be looking for a socket at least. I ran out of sockets so I have 8 more to go in. You do have to be careful doing the knockouts though as if you just go for brute force you'll bend the boxes!

It's not going to get much more done for a bit now as I'm back at work for 4 days as of Wednesday. Now I'm going to have to go back to balancing work, parenting and nobbing around in the garden doing this!


----------



## MikeG.

Well, that's been a fantastic project for lockdown, and you're 95%+ done. Huge congratulations. =D> =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Bm101

Great job. =D> Really enjoyed the read. Don't forget to complete the build for us! 
ps: see what you mean about the sockets now.


----------



## flying haggis

did you discount the idea of hanging the light panels? four in one area seems overkill imo


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis":4ej4g6su said:


> did you discount the idea of hanging the light panels? four in one area seems overkill imo


To be fair its 8. I like a tan :lol: 

I really didn't want them hanging on chains. The other 4 I'm putting up will be fixed to the underside of the joists and I'm not really happy about that!

I'll see how it all looks. If its too bright I can mvoe them around easily enough as it's all just flex and wagos. I'm fairly sure I'm going to want at least 2 more panels but if I remove some from the vaulted section then I won't have to buy more.

This is where I've ended for now. I finished putting my sockets up and running the conduit and then used what 2.5mm t&e I had to get some cable in. Since I also had the smoke detector in hand I secured that in place.






While I'm away at work I can try and work out wtf I'm going to do about a door as well as how to build it and window frames. I'll only have 3 days at home before I have to go away again so there may be no updated now until early August when I have time off for a prolonged period again.

So
I need thoughts on heaters and or split units that I can hang out the back that can deal with hot cold and humidity
how to make a door
how to make a pair of frames, possibly opening ones


----------



## DomD

DBT85":3b6cinae said:


> I need thoughts on heaters and or split units that I can hang out the back that can deal with hot cold and humidity


I used the cheapest convection heaters I could find on Amazon - they work well for me but I can't say how they will perform in the long run. They have holes in the back you can use for wall mounting.
Dom


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85":kxf7le4x said:


> So
> I need thoughts on heaters and or split units that I can hang out the back that can deal with hot cold and humidity
> how to make a door
> how to make a pair of frames, possibly opening ones


I have installed a Milek curtain heater, which also has a fan only setting, remote control and timer. Works very well, but will need sub zero outside temp to test its mettle. 





Windows aren’t too bad to make if you can get hold of window frame and opening light profiled timber, if not, don’t bother, just buy one ready made or go without. 

What type of door are you thinking of, and what dimensions. I’m half way through making a stable door 955mm wide and 2100mm high, they aren’t available that size off the shelf. The joinery grade pine was over £160 to make it, I wasn’t going to put that much effort in to making one using c24 timber just for it to twist or warp.


----------



## DBT85

Well its been mealy a month since my last update but such is life and work when it gets in the way.

Over the last couple of days I managed to get all 12 lights up and lit. Their connections should be final but the lashed up plug to see how it looks is naturally not final.

My paint is also in stock so I might actually be able to get this cladded this year!

It's not as overly bright in the middle as I expected which I'm guessing is down to the height of the top 4 lights spreading the love everywhere. I may end up changing things but right now I'm happy with the lighting.

I've just started running the SWA around the house and right now I'm cowering from the heat.






Nice to see the forum finally got an upgrade.

Not sure my thread warrants being a sticky!


----------



## DBT85

Right chaps.

I'm at a dead end with this in part due to work and everything else going on on the farm. I need help. 

The paint is here and so is the FE so I can maybe get cracking on that if it ever stops raining again, but I have literally no idea what to do about doors and I'm running so low on energy and time you wouldn't believe. I don't have the time or the skill to do what Steve Maskery did so that's out of the question.

What can I do, what can I use. Drawings if you've got them.


----------



## Nelsun

Peter Parfit did a recent video on making shed doors which may give some inspiration in one direction or another


----------



## DBT85

Thanks Nelsun but I'm going to have to get some made up as I'm too busy at work and don't have the confidence to get this done myself in the time I do have. It seems ridiculous after doing all the rest of it to be quite honest. 

I've only spent a little time using the tiny titan PT that I have and not enough to be confident getting material prepared for something that I NEED done sooner than later. The weather has been utterly rubbish at home in the last week and its not likely to get better as the year wears on and I really want a door on to stop the rain getting in. Until I have a door there's no point thinking about the floor and until I've done the floor I can't begin to think about actually fitting out the inside in any meaningful way.

Exactly what I feared would happen has happened. Time has evaporated as soon as I had to go back to work.

I have at least got just over half of the featheredge painted ready to start fitting this coming week. Hopefully the weather plays ball. I'll not be able to get anything done again after this week for at least 2 weeks.


----------



## siggy_7

DBT85 said:


> Exactly what I feared would happen has happened. Time has evaporated as soon as I had to go back to work.



I feel your pain - similar situation to you with a young family (although I have been fortunate enough to have continued working full-time, from home, throughout recent events). Massive congrats to you for getting so much done in a very short space of time. Don't be too disheartened, the end definitely looks to be in sight!

I made my own doors for my workshop a while ago - depending on what equipment you have they aren't actually too bad to make up. Thread here: Double workshop doors If it's mainly the planing that you're worried about (and with a tiny P/T I can see why) then I'm sure there are solutions available to getting some timber prepared.


----------



## Sheptonphil

The bigger problem is actually finding timber at the moment that is fit for making a door. The usual [email protected] available at most timber yards and big sheds is no where near stable enough or straight and true to do joinery with. Bring it indoors and it twists and splits like a Can Can dancers legs. Get them made by a local joinery shop, hang them and enjoy doing the internals in the dry.

There’s still plenty to do, don’t think of it as cheating or failing, you’ve done more than most will ever attempt as it is, you should be well proud of your self earned achievements this year.


----------



## Blister

Not sure what your budget is for the doors , Why not use 2 sheets of marine ply and frame them internally , Quick and easy build


----------



## DBT85

Thanks chaps. It does feel a bit cheating though but with life as it is its the only sensible option. I'm away from home for work and then when in home it's dad duties, other household duties, helping run the holiday cottages etc. It's exactly the type of thing I build the workshop to be able to learn how to make though, just bad timing.

I've had one quote for £280 for 2 doors, one of about 900 wide and one I think about 550 to fill the gap.


----------



## MikeG.

You've probably seen my doors.........6x1 sawn boards with a half-lap, ledged and braced. Quick and cheap, but pretty agricultural. You could make the pair in half an afternoon.

After a spate of break-ins at local outbuildings, I'm considering either replacing them with steel doors, or lining their edges with some strategically placed steel.


----------



## Inspector

DBT85 said:


> I've had one quote for £280 for 2 doors, one of about 900 wide and one I think about 550 to fill the gap.



I need to put storm doors (aluminium and glass/screen) on my double shop doors to keep the driving rain from blasting past the door seals. Being slightly oversize the storm doors will need to be custom made. $2,000Can!!! Well that won't happen. I'll be making my own from Douglass Fir. In your case the quote you got is more than reasonable in my opinion.

Pete


----------



## DBT85

MikeG. said:


> You've probably seen my doors.........6x1 sawn boards with a half-lap, ledged and braced. Quick and cheap, but pretty agricultural. You could make the pair in half an afternoon.
> 
> After a spate of break-ins at local outbuildings, I'm considering either replacing them with steel doors, or lining their edges with some strategically placed steel.


I appreciate your faith in my skills Mike but I promise it's misplaced 

Surely the door is dependant on acquiring materials somewhere near straight in the first place? I'm assuming you made the 30mm half lap with a router?

I still don't get why my thread is pinned to the top


----------



## DBT85

Well I only went and did it. Today after arguing with a shower door for longer than I'd like in one of the holiday cottages I actually did work on the workshop!

I needed to get my wedges cut for my bottom board, but since I figured that would be easiest with a bottom board with the routed section on it I got one of my test pieces cut first. I only really needed the one router bit but since that was going to be a tenner I just got the Trend 30 piece set for I tihnk £35. I'll probably never use many of them, but If I only ever use a handful It'll have been ok. If I wear one out I can just buy a more expensive one for that in particular.

Anyway, routed edge cut with my little Bosch 600 palm router and it worked fine in 2 or 3 passes. Next to cut some wedges. I just used the mitre saw to get some batten to length and then had to buttocks about swapping blades over on my bandsaw to cut them to an actual wedge, it took a couple of attempts to get the ridge size. With those cut and treated I secured them on the small back wall and set about installing the stainless steel insect mesh.

Finally ready to board!

Except I now need to cut a board to length, route the cove on the back, paint the cove and the end and THEN I can install it.

So that was my progress. One board. Tomorrow at least I can just bang a load up and feel better about myself!

40 something boards painted and now dry.






Today's progress 





Apart from that, my electrician has had to move the install date owing to his mothers funeral being on the same day  He apologised. I told him some things in life are more important.

Also I ordered my doors. The price I was originally quoted was for a door 500mm shorter than I needed so I was glad I checked before going ahead. The price understandably went up but thats no problem. I opted for two equal doors of 780mm. In my head I thought that wasn't wide enough if I only want to open one until I actually measured one of the doors in the house!

Also I treated (trut? trote?) myself to a Festool TS55. My first Festool so the mortgage payments aren't yet too high. £400 for the saw in systainer with the 1.4m track so a little less than I've seen it for before. 

Oh any my heater arrived. Only a 2kw for now but there's room to add another if needed.


----------



## weekend_woodworker

DBT85 said:


> Well I only went and did it. Today after arguing with a shower door for longer than I'd like in one of the holiday cottages I actually did work on the workshop!
> 
> I needed to get my wedges cut for my bottom board, but since I figured that would be easiest with a bottom board with the routed section on it I got one of my test pieces cut first. I only really needed the one router bit but since that was going to be a tenner I just got the Trend 30 piece set for I tihnk £35. I'll probably never use many of them, but If I only ever use a handful It'll have been ok. If I wear one out I can just buy a more expensive one for that in particular.
> 
> Anyway, routed edge cut with my little Bosch 600 palm router and it worked fine in 2 or 3 passes. Next to cut some wedges. I just used the mitre saw to get some batten to length and then had to buttocks about swapping blades over on my bandsaw to cut them to an actual wedge, it took a couple of attempts to get the ridge size. With those cut and treated I secured them on the small back wall and set about installing the stainless steel insect mesh.
> 
> Finally ready to board!
> 
> Except I now need to cut a board to length, route the cove on the back, paint the cove and the end and THEN I can install it.
> 
> So that was my progress. One board. Tomorrow at least I can just bang a load up and feel better about myself!
> 
> 40 something boards painted and now dry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today's progress
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from that, my electrician has had to move the install date owing to his mothers funeral being on the same day  He apologised. I told him some things in life are more important.
> 
> Also I ordered my doors. The price I was originally quoted was for a door 500mm shorter than I needed so I was glad I checked before going ahead. The price understandably went up but thats no problem. I opted for two equal doors of 780mm. In my head I thought that wasn't wide enough if I only want to open one until I actually measured one of the doors in the house!
> 
> Also I treated (trut? trote?) myself to a Festool TS55. My first Festool so the mortgage payments aren't yet too high. £400 for the saw in systainer with the 1.4m track so a little less than I've seen it for before.
> 
> Oh any my heater arrived. Only a 2kw for now but there's room to add another if needed.


Well done, it is difficult to keep momentum on things when the rest of life gets in the way. It is looking really good.


----------



## MikeG.

Getting the boards painted is quite a big deal. There's lots more work in that than people realise.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG. said:


> Getting the boards painted is quite a big deal. There's lots more work in that than people realise.


It's like painting a sponge. A full 9" roller covers maybe 3 or at best 4ft before needingto be dunked again.

I took to stacking 4 boardsaand doing the edges while they were clamped together, then laid them out to rolled the faces. Seemed faster somehow. 

Still got about 30 to do but basically ran out of room. Hopefully today I'll have cleared a fair space and can get more done.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> Still got about 30 to do but basically ran out of room. Hopefully today I'll have cleared a fair space and can get more done.


what you really need to do is build yourself a workshop to do this work in.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil said:


> what you really need to do is build yourself a workshop to do this work in.


Ha that's where I have been doing it because of this poxy weather! I appreciate the nice tan I got doimgtthe building work over lock down but it's been rubbish it feels like for a month. Naturally it started raining again just as I started boarding again today so I finished off upto the start of the gable and then set about other tasks like cutting the other 40 wedges, cutting boards for the door side etc.

Just about to start putting those up to at least the top of the door. Then the fiddly bit of cutting around the door or doing the gable cuts can start.

I think I've just enough boards painted now to do one full long side, leaving just the other long side and the gables to finish.

Nice to feel like some progress even if at this exact moment it's only actually 13 boards nailed up today. The actual boarding is the fast bit!

I've literally spent every spare moment today on the workshop. That of course was interspersed with taing one car for its first MOT only to have it fail and need new front shocks (under warranty at least), and collecting another car from its now passed MOT. Never a dull moment.

Anyway, pics if all we really care about.

Many bits of batten cut to length prior to being cleft in twain by the bandsaw to use was wedges.





Cladman tool in use, works very well and it only took about 25 minutes to go from this to the next photo





As I said, putting the boards up is the fastest bit after you've painted them, cut them, re painted the ends, routed the cove in the first board etc.





Last bit for the day was sorting the wedges and mesh on the door wall. I then nailed the first boards up either side of the door and called it a day.





I have the next 9 boards on each side already cut and ready to nail up so tomorrow morning I can make happy progress to start my day.


----------



## DBT85

I've done the boards either side of the door and before I make an buttocks of myself I just wanted to check something.

For the next board here, am I just cutting a door sized notch in one board? I'm wondering about water dripping from the edge of that board onto the top of the door frame rather than over the front of it like we've done with the cove on the bottom board to arc over the brick plinth.






Just roughly in place so spacing may not be perfect





While I await your comments I'll make a start on the window side. For now I'm boarding over the window openings and will open them up when time permits.

Naturally its raining, again. Taking bets on having a october heat wave as I'll be inside by then!


----------



## Sheptonphil

I’ve put a drip strip over my doors. It extends over the door, on top the lining, and up behind the cladding In one single piece. All water is directed over the door and can’t track back under, which is what will happen with your temp piece pictured. I guess you could make similar with a piece of DPC plastic.


----------



## DBT85

Well that's it for the cladding today as I have no more painted boards left. I was on track to be able to do 2 rows on the long side with just 3 boards, till I remembered that there isn't a stud at 4.8m from one end so I'd have to cut every board until I reached the windows.

Since the windows are being covered for now but will at some point be cut out properly, I got away with using full boards and some of the offcuts from the rows below. The ends are not fixed in the middle of the window opening but that's fine as it's getting cut out eventually anyway. I've staggered the boards so there's not actually any movement to worry about at the ends anyway. It'll look nicer when it has windows that's for sure.

Time to clean the workshop and get ready to paint the remaining 32 boards. I THINK I have enough to do everything that's left.  That's why I've done the front before the back. I'd rather have as few joins as possible in the side that'll get more eyes on it.








Sheptonphil said:


> I’ve put a drip strip over my doors. It extends over the door, on top the lining, and up behind the cladding In one single piece. All water is directed over the door and can’t track back under, which is what will happen with your temp piece pictured. I guess you could make similar with a piece of DPC plastic.


Ah ok that makes sense. I can;t see anything poking out over your door. I'll see what pearls Mike throws up before I do anything.

Incidentally, is there a magic secret for going the gable boards? I'd planned to just cut one end to the right angle have a measure and do too much up and down a ladder to get them to fit.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> Ah ok that makes sense. I can;t see anything poking out over your door. I'll see what pearls Mike throws up before I do anything.
> 
> Incidentally, is there a magic secret for going the gable boards? I'd planned to just cut one end to the right angle have a measure and do too much up and down a ladder to get them to fit.


this shows the principal of the drip cap.

Once you have a pattern for your angle at the gable, cut one end. With an angled off cut you can work out the point of intercept with the gable each side. Measure between those two points and you have your length at the longest point when set with the correct overlap. Simple now to make a piece with the angle both ends at the correct length. If you cut it too short use it further up the gable.


----------



## MikeG.

Pentice board, DBT85. Replace that top board over the door with one slightly wider, cut a little slope on the top of the side pieces, so that the pentice board slopes down and out a little. You can also cut a piece of DPC and sit it over the top and up the wall, so that any water that gets in sits on plastic rather than wood before it makes its way back out again. I'm sure there are photos on my workshop build thread on WHll.


----------



## DBT85

I think I understand. I did have a look at your thread yesterday for inspiration but couldn't see anything bit I'll have another look.

Phil where did you get the drip strip?


----------



## DBT85

How about this. Rather than chopping out the existing boards used to frame the door, I instead use a new 10mmm board secured to the battens over the door like this at an appropriate angle. I can still put some spare DPC on top as additional protection.

Keeps the door opening square and would require less being hacked off the door when it arrives.











How much wider than the existing frame for the pentice? 50mm each side?


----------



## GerryKnowles

DBT85 said:


> I've drawn it up with the 2 large windows that are kicking around here. 960x1750 and 960x 1140. May be too large for that 4x6 lintel??
> 
> Thought they'd look too big but its not too bad. Given though that I can just order windows any size I want (and would eventually have to replace these dead ones anyway) I might just not bother with them at all.
> 
> Large windows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smaller windows


Hi , Can you advise what aoftware you used to create these drawings they are really good. I am trying to find something but struggling at present


----------



## DBT85

GerryKnowles said:


> Hi , Can you advise what aoftware you used to create these drawings they are really good. I am trying to find something but struggling at present


Hi Gary,

I used Fusion 360, its free to use for anything short of actual commercial work. I actually have the entire workshop in a file that (if I find the right version of the file) is scalable so you (or I) can modify it to suit your requirements.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85 said:


> ........How much wider than the existing frame for the pentice? 50mm each side?



Can be, but you'll have awkward cutouts in your boarding. Mine is flush with the verticals. You door frame is going to sit in behind those liner boards, isn't it? Therefore a slope on the top of the cheek pieces won't make any difference, surely.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG. said:


> Can be, but you'll have awkward cutouts in your boarding. Mine is flush with the verticals. You door frame is going to sit in behind those liner boards, isn't it? Therefore a slope on the top of the cheek pieces won't make any difference, surely.


I'd planned to just do the same as seen here. The door hinges will be secured to the vertical boards.

If by frame you mean the bit that stops the door swinging inwards then yes it'll be back from the front face of those vertical boards.


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85 said:


> I think I understand. I did have a look at your thread yesterday for inspiration but couldn't see anything



Yep, that'll be on account of my window and door being under the eaves. Sorry.

I've just nipped out and taken these two.....utitlity door, and bike shed door:


----------



## Sheptonphil

My cladding is only 8mm thick, and not tapered. This is how mine worked, over hangs, across the lining and up behind the cladding for an inch or so. Mike’s pictures above show an easy way to make one without ripping anything you’ve built apart. A piece of DPC would form a riser behind cladding.


----------



## DBT85

That's great Mike thanks.

I see you've recently moved your hinges too!


----------



## MikeG.

No, it's been like that since I made the shed. It's only a temporary door. I'll make a proper one one day.


----------



## GerryKnowles

DBT85 said:


> Hi Gary,
> 
> I used Fusion 360, its free to use for anything short of actual commercial work. I actually have the entire workshop in a file that (if I find the right version of the file) is scalable so you (or I) can modify it to suit your requirements.


thanks DBT85 will download


----------



## DBT85

GerryKnowles said:


> thanks DBT85 will download


No problem.

Heres the post in the design forum with the links to some of the videos I watched to learn how to use it. 

My design ended up being almost entirely scalable by changing some parameters and involved some daft formulas to make it happen but even that was only using a tiny fraction of what it can do.


----------



## DBT85

The end of my week at home and I'm happy enough with the progress. There are 2 rows to finish on the back side, 1 on the front and then the gable at the far end. I'm about 5 boards short to do it all  . Me covering up those windows has bitten me a little there I think.

Anyway, pentice board in place (I did put with some dpc up behind itbefore continuing to board). I'll be redoing the vertical parts of the door frame as I want to neaten that up and they actually aren't deep enough anyway as its only 1x6 and needs to be nearer 1x7.






Then it was time to cut out the part over the door. Fortunately the wife helped me lift that up otherwise it was going to split. I used an offcut to make a template to test one end and when happy just marked a board appropriately.






The fun of measuring the gable end. I ended up cutting 2 offcuts to the right angle, securing them in place with a screw and then measuring between the tips. Worked great and it turned out that each row was simply 500mm shorter than the one below. That made life a bit easier.






Where we stand for the moment. I'm happier now that it is much better protected than it was at the start of the week. It'll probably be 2 weeks now before I can do much more and of course I need more featheredge and some other bits to finish it all off anyway.


----------



## MikeG.

Looks great! The end is nigh.....


----------



## DBT85

Any particular suggestions on locks for the doors? A couple of long throw (do they exist) mortise locks between the doors and a bolt top and bottom of the secondary door? 

I'll bend the hinges as Mike suggests which will offer a little more security and I know that if someone wants to get in they will, but if I can make it a noisy affair to do so it would be nice.


----------



## Yojevol

I have double doors on my workshop one of which is very seldom used and is bolted top and bottom with old fashioned bolts. The other door is fitted with a lockable push bar. This type of thing So both doors are bolted top and bottom.
On my first workshop I had some hinges fabricated such that the pivot points were well out in front of the doors thus allowing them to be fully folded back against the walls. I don't know whether these are available commercially these days.
Brian


----------



## flying haggis

search for wide throw hinges to enable the doors to fold back against the walls ie



Redirect Notice



just an example


----------



## AJB Temple

A very fastidious job. Lovely. 

I like to clad the pentice board in lead. I just think it looks nicer. 

The twerps who converted the old tithe barn where we currently live had not done this over any of the doors or windows. They presumably thought there was no need to bother as the roof overhang is quite large. But years of rain created leaks and this was why (along with the fact that they fitted terrible, far too narrow plastic guttering with about half the number of brackets needed and dodgy falls). 

You have done a lovely job of the cladding. Personally I would have sprayed it, as I am getting lazier as I get older.


----------



## AJB Temple

PS, what do you think of the clad fix gadget? I have never used one and never seen one until a thread here last year. I just use a level line (if needed) and knock a couple of nails in a bit as a ledge to prop the boards prior to screwing or nailing.


----------



## DBT85

@AJB Temple the cladding tool was invaluable for me. I'm sure others have done good work without one using methods you describe. 

I bought it used for £100 and will probably get near the same for it when sold so that's good enough for me. 

I'd have sprayed the boards but coverage is less and frankly I've nearly exhausted a 20l tin already and it's only had one coat. The second coat might well be sprayed on as I think rolling it might kill me. 

More FE was ordered for delivery on Wednesday so I'll be able to finish the cladding. Doors could be here this coming week (naturally I'm at work for most of it) so by the end of September I'll be covered and secure and able to move on to the inside a bit more. 

Priority on Wednesday is some electrical bits in the mild hope my electrician actually turns up. Next week. If not I'm in the joyous position of "my electrician told me to do this and never came back" which I know other electricians hear all the time.


----------



## DBT85

Well, the electrician is indeed coming on Monday to do the bulk of the work. While he's there we can discuss 16a socket options. I'd like one in the floor in the hopes of one day putting a saw there but I'm not 100% sure on where it would go, nor if I can even get a 16a socket into a floor box. Failing that I'll see if we can be sure to have room to fit some later if I want to. I have desires to build an extension to house a DX at some point but we'll have to see about that. Still got to pay for all this!

The doors arrived today also. I've only seen a photo as I'm away but they look nice and I'm looking forward to getting them up. Hinges and some bolts are coming Monday along with some more 25x100 and 25x200 I need and the chipboard flooring. 

Still not decide on actual locks yet, or door handles


----------



## flying haggis

what size is your floor box/ you might need to use a panel mounted socket on a blank plate if you have a small floor box


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis said:


> what size is your floor box/ you might need to use a panel mounted socket on a blank plate if you have a small floor box


I've not bought one yet. It would at most be able to be 80mm deep once insulation and chipboard are down. 

I'm sure most don't have them in the floor and cope just fine.


----------



## MikeG.

Surely you just unscrew a lightbulb and screw an extension into the bulb holder to run your machines and power tools? 

Well, if it was good enough for my dad..........


----------



## DBT85

I can very well imagine use of a paperclip for the fuse wire too!


----------



## flying haggis

DBT85 said:


> I can very well imagine use of a paperclip for the fuse wire too!


nowhere near big enough!! think of the start current .............


----------



## flying haggis

DBT85 said:


> I've not bought one yet. It would at most be able to be 80mm deep once insulation and chipboard are down.
> 
> I'm sure most don't have them in the floor and cope just fine.


i dont think most floor boxes will allow a ceeform 16a plug to be plugged in and then the lid shut. normal 13a plugs should be fine but perhaps now is the time to think about an alternative


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85 said:


> I can very well imagine use of a paperclip for the fuse wire too!



Coat hanger wire.


----------



## DBT85

Electrician came yesterday and got me all hooked up. For now its just lights, heat and main ring. He's happy to return at a later date if/when I want any 16a installed. He was in awe of the amount of sockets I'd put in 

Also yesterday the floor arrived as well as some remaining timbers I needed to finish off. So here it all is piled up outside the workshop. 







This morning I've been templating and cutting the new door lining part, my question @MikeG. is thus, am I right in thinking that this should be say 5mm off the floor with some brown mastic between it and the concrete to try and help stop the end soaking up any little water that might get under it? Obviously with the same between it and the plinth.






Hoping to have doors up in some form by the end of today but we'll see how that turns out!

Only got today and tomorrow so doors on is the main event and any cladding I can do is a bonus. Floor will be next week.


----------



## MikeG.

Yes. I make it a tad more than 5mm.


----------



## DBT85

Ok. will do.

I other news its 4pm and no doors are up. I really wish I'd just bought parliment hinges or just fitted these T hinges in the traditional way. Utter pain in the buttocks.


----------



## DBT85

Doors are on. Not finished but a lot less rain will find its way in. I also had the first experience of it remaining warm inside despite being cold outside which was so nice I immediately shut the door again.






In the end I did just get some stainless parliament hinges, 102x102 and they worked great. It did mean I had to fill in the cutout on the one door I'd been trying to do with the T hinges but that went ok.

For now one door has a 13mm sprung "animal" bolt at the top and a similarly chunky monkey tail bolt at the bottom. I need to drill a nice hole in my slab for that. Door alignment is not perfect but close enough that it'll be ok. I still need handles, locks and a rain deflector of some kind at the bottom. Probably some Bedec MSP too as I'm not sue the barn paint will adhere to the smooth finish on the doors.

With the doors at least on I can get the cladding finished (which will require me to do _more _painting), barge boards on, flooring sorted and maybe finally be in a place to actually clean up and move in. I can't wait to get some storage in there to help tidy it up


----------



## MikeG.

Weathertight! That's a milestone.....


----------



## Haighy

Yojevol said:


> Taking an interest in your project, I'm reminded of a water/moisture ingress problem I had with my workshop. It is a log cabin style structure built up on a course of bricks on a concrete base, ie similar to yours. From your drawings I see that you are proposing to build your brickwork right on the edge of the concrete. If I had done that my problem would have been reduced but not eliminated so I'll tell the story:-
> The brick course was built about 6" from the edge of the slab. The building timbers were laid directly on the bricks. After a year or so a few cracks developed in the brick mortar which allowed water ingress resulting in puddles on my workshop floor. This was a problem only on the SW facing wall subject to prevailing wind and rain. It was particularly alarming because I had put in a line of tool cupboards along that wall.
> I tried various methods of sealing but to no avail. Eventually it was evident that the whole wall was suffering from the elements so drastic action was needed. This is the result:-View attachment 87591
> Firstly I sealed the bricks to the slab with flexible plastic flashing. This was followed by cladding the entire wall with fibre shingles making sure they overlapped the flashing by a good margin. This system has been installed for about 4 years now and I've had no further problem.
> With your design water falling off the walls will drain down the edge of the slab, but if cracks develop there may be a problem, although your 3 courses of bricks should be more stable than my single layer. It might be an idea to seal the brickwork to prevent moisture seeping through.
> Brian



Hi @Yojevol I believe I have made a similar error with my workshop, can I ask exactly which flashing you mean? E.g. is it this kind? Bostik Flashband Grey 10m x 150mm

Did you consider modifying the slope of the concrete base away from the wall? I would think this is a better solution but obviously more effort...

Thanks,
Andrew


----------



## Yojevol

Haighy said:


> Hi @Yojevol I believe I have made a similar error with my workshop, can I ask exactly which flashing you mean? E.g. is it this kind? Bostik Flashband Grey 10m x 150mm
> 
> Did you consider modifying the slope of the concrete base away from the wall? I would think this is a better solution but obviously more effort...
> 
> Thanks,
> Andrew


Yes that's the stuff although I think it may have been an Evostick brand. If you use the method be sure to coat everything with primer first. 
No, I never considered grinding away 26m of concrete. 
Brian


----------



## Haighy

Yojevol said:


> Yes that's the stuff although I think it may have been an Evostick brand. If you use the method be sure to coat everything with primer first.
> No, I never considered grinding away 26m of concrete.
> Brian


Thanks, I will give that a try probably this weekend. Yes I did think adjusting the concrete would be less than straightfoward...!

Cheers,
Andrew


----------



## AJB Temple

Very nice.

I would suggest getting your earth grounding point protected. Easily hit with mowers etc and it is a key part of the electrical safety.


----------



## DBT85

AJB Temple said:


> Very nice.
> 
> I would suggest getting your earth grounding point protected. Easily hit with mowers etc and it is a key part of the electrical safety.


Yeah its just been put in at where ground level should be once its filled in so it'll be looked after. I'll maybe put something else around it too.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Looking real good. Nice to be able to do the work inside now without worrying about the weather. You can start to get the feel of the place and what is going to work.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil said:


> Looking real good. Nice to be able to do the work inside now without worrying about the weather. You can start to get the feel of the place and what is going to work.


Yeah I'm _really _looking forward to moving away from the building part and onto the interior more. Having never had this kind of space I've no real idea of where I want to put anything yet. I'm fairly sure I'll have a bench along the entire window wall and probably inset my mitre saw into it but apart from that I have no idea. It's going to get a bit crowded at first until I start working out better homes for things.


----------



## DBT85

Well after finishing my 12 hour night shift I drove 2 hours home and set about the workshop. Little one was at nursery so I had some peace to plod along (until I was inevitably interrupted). The cladding on the 2 long was is complete. Hurrah. I offered up a board, marked it where the rafter feet needed to be and marked up and jigsawed accordingly.

I then set about sweeping up the mountain of sawdust so that the floor wasn't quite as dusty for the painting of 5 more boards which will allow me to finish the other gable end. Cladding will be complete! I still have to sort the barge boards out but that is another easy enough job. 

Another 20l tin of paint has been ordered on someone elses dime as this one is nearly gone. Door handles ordered, brown mastic and some locks are on the way also. 

I was close to picking up a Wadkin AGS10/12 and a Wadkin 9BGS in Leicester for £600, but despite both being 3 phase, both are also only 415 volt so I opted to pass as I don't have that option. There is a Startrite 275 going not far from here currently at £199 and it has the 3hp 240/415v 3 phase motor so I'm tempted. No side tables and its obviously showing its age. But since I could have it running for maybe under £300 it might just fall into the truck.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> I was close to picking up a Wadkin AGS10/12 and a Wadkin 9BGS in Leicester for £600, but despite both being 3 phase, both are also only 415 volt so I opted to pass as I don't have that option. There is a Startrite 275 going not far from here currently at £199 and it has the 3hp 240/415v 3 phase motor so I'm tempted. No side tables and its obviously showing its age. But since I could have it running for maybe under £300 it might just fall into the truck.


All three phase is 415v. You can get an inverter to run one or more three phase machines off a 240v supply. So the fact it’s 415v shouldn’t put you off. The Startrite is only 240v if run through the VFD as three phase motor will be a 415v motor.

edited to correct autocorrect.


----------



## DBT85

Sheptonphil said:


> All three phase is 415v. You can get an inverter to run one or more three phase machines off a 240v supply. So the fact it’s 415v shouldn’t put you off. The Startrite is only 240v if run through the VFD as three phase motor will be a 415v motor.
> 
> edited to correct autocorrect.



From my understanding 

Some 3 phase motors can be switched between star and delta, so can run at 240v or 415v, but still 3 phase. 

A cheap vfd can convert 240v regular to 240v 3 phase, but it can't also bump it up to 415v. That's in the realm of more expensive gear. 

A 3 phase motor in star (415v) will run from a vfd, but at a lower power. A 3 phase motor in delta (240v) will run at full tilt from a vfd.

This is why a 3 phase motor that can be switched between star and delta is a nice bonus. 

I'm more than happy to be corrected of course.


----------



## Sheptonphil

Knew it had been done in the past when I had the chance of one, but seemed not as simple as I thought.

Full details here
unless I passed up on this saw needlessly? That’s a great possibility if it was that simple.


----------



## DBT85

Yeah Its easy to assume that all 3 phase must therefore be 415 volt, or that a 3 phase motor that can also run 240v means you could just plug it into the wall  @Ttrees posts on the subject have been illuminating, especially for the Startrite 275 as he also has one.

This one is currently at £259 and only about half an hour from me so could collect, and was actually owned by @mock before the current owner had it. It's got no side tables but mock did say back in 2016 that the school he got it from had only recently spent £500 on it. So its tempting.

But then I look at this Kity 619 currently for £390 which has extensions for days, a wider fence rail and a sliding table and just regular old 240v albeit on a 16a plug. Not as old as one of the Startrites or AGS 10 or 12 but still by all accounts a solid saw.


----------



## DBT85

Finally the cladding is complete. It started on September the 1st so a little longer than I'd like, but work and a lack of materials stuffed that up!

With all of it I only cut ONE board too short. I don't even know how. It was one of the ones for the rear gable end. I think it should have been 1860mm and I made it 1840mm. Given its location high up and on the backside and to be 90% covered by the barge board, I just nailed the pipper up and put a tiny filler in. I can live with it.

I have 5 full boards left which is fine. If I ever get around to adding the extension (for DX and possibly air ) that I have designs on it'll get used then. Lets finish one project before we start the next though eh?

I also cut the fillers needed to go just along the gables which the barge boards will nail to. Without them they'd have had nothing to rest against. That also meant painting the visible edge. With those done I painted the 22x100 I'm using for the barge boards. I only painted them far enough up the 4.8m length for the job, as I've not cut them yet. That is a job for tomorrow.

@MikeG. I do have a question if you don't mind. 

As you can see in the below, at the gables I have membrane flapping around in the breeze. When I put up my barge boards tight under the slates a) I assume I'm putting that membrane above the barge board (between the BB and the slate), not behind it and b) Am I filling the inevitable gaps between the BB and the slates with another bead of brown sealant?


----------



## mikej460

The Kity looks in very good order. Either it has had little use and well maintained over the years or the table top has been restored; they are anodised cast aluminium but it does wear off over time and scratches appear. I have had one for years and it is a very good saw but mine is in a sorry state now after 12 years stood in my damp garage


----------



## Inspector

MikeG announced in another thread yesterday that he was leaving this forum and can be found on another British forum. You'll have to hunt him down if you want an answer.

Now watch he will show up and make a liar out of me.

Pete


----------



## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> The Kity looks in very good order. Either it has had little use and well maintained over the years or the table top has been restored; they are anodised cast aluminium but it does wear off over time and scratches appear. I have had one for years and it is a very good saw but mine is in a sorry state now after 12 years stood in my damp garage


The listing says its been serviced but it's interesting you say that it's cast aluminium and not iron. The listing says iron and the only other one I've seen (well actually, on YouTube it was John McGraths 1619) seemed to be iron for the main and sliding table. He was comentign on the weight of the sliding table while repairing it. I wonder if they changed at some point, possibly after being bought out by schleppach(sp).



Inspector said:


> MikeG announced in another thread yesterday that he was leaving this forum and can be found on another British forum. You'll have to hunt him down if you want an answer. Now watch he will show up and make a liar out of me. Pete


 oh bloody hell not again. well at least most of the work is done.


----------



## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> The listing says its been serviced but it's interesting you say that it's cast aluminium and not iron. The listing says iron and the only other one I've seen (well actually, on YouTube it was John McGraths 1619) seemed to be iron for the main and sliding table. He was comentign on the weight of the sliding table while repairing it. I wonder if they changed at some point, possibly after being bought out by schleppach(sp).
> 
> oh bloody hell not again. well at least most of the work is done.


I'd ask him to put a magnet on it if he's not 100% sure. I'm not aware of a cast iron version but it does look more recent than most and I do recall that when they went bust some machines were modified.

MikeG is still posting here TheWoodHaven2 • View forum - Workshop Builds


----------



## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> I'd ask him to put a magnet on it if he's not 100% sure. I'm not aware of a cast iron version but it does look more recent than most and I do recall that when they went bust some machines were modified.
> 
> MikeG is still posting here TheWoodHaven2 • View forum - Workshop Builds


Ahh OK. It's gone beyond the point I'm willing to go anyway for now so I'll let this one pass me by. 

I knew exactly where he'd gone, this isn't the first time! A shame for the forum to be honest. The amount of questions he's answered for me alone must be in the hundreds already and he's so willing to help so many and share his knowledge.


----------



## mikej460

Yes and I now need his advice so I've now had to register on a different place and will copy my post onto there


----------



## DBT85

For reasons known only to Mystic Meg, I can no longer edit my OP and Title to reflect progress.

Never mind.

Despite the horrendous non stop rain, the barge boards are done. I basically now need to do the guttering and paint the door (which in itself actually involves a few extra steps).







Despite that weather, the only moisture in the workshop was just under the door where it doesn;t have a drip edge yet. Once that's added and the rest of the frame is finished inside it'll be perfect.

I spent what little time I've managed over the last 3 days sorting out the inside and tidying up ready to get the floor down on top of some insulation. That begins next week as I have 2 weeks off from Friday. Maybe I can finally move in soon!

A wide angle shop can play havoc with an internal space. The board on the right at the end is the same as the ones on the right at the front, but one lot looks 3 times longer!


----------



## flying haggis

you might wany to get some lights in there to stop you falling over things


----------



## toolsntat

Is there a reason you didn't put a small roof above the doors? 
I'd have thought it would have had outstanding benefits in inclement weather.
Cheers Andy


----------



## DBT85

flying haggis said:


> you might wany to get some lights in there to stop you falling over things


Ha. Its actually perfect despite looking overkill. If anything I'll actually add 2 more at either end!


toolsntat said:


> Is there a reason you didn't put a small roof above the doors?
> I'd have thought it would have had outstanding benefits in inclement weather.
> Cheers Andy


No reason other than not really needed and it didn't come up in the planning stages. Mike and others have rarely bothered when they built theirs.


----------



## Keefy.

flying haggis said:


> you might wany to get some lights in there to stop you falling over things



Lighting's OK, I think he's short of sockets!


----------



## DBT85

My little helper arrived just in time to help fit the last 3 floor boards. A rare internet appearance for her.






Also managed to get the doors painted and the door jamb fitted. 






Locks and guttering will be next, then some kind of skirting round the edge of the floor to close off the gap and then its moving day.


----------



## Yojevol

Good to see Charles is happy with progress


----------



## DBT85

Productive day. We have 2 mortice locks fitted, half the guttering up and the monkey tail bolt hole has been drilled into the concrete so that it will sink a good 40mm in. The locks are not keyed alike. I like to think its for security, but its because I thought I'd ticked the box but I hadn't. No real bother.

Guttering on the window side is done thought I might add the 3 extra brackets just so it looks even.

I need to order something to seal between the doors. Not sure what to do there.


----------



## Blackswanwood

DBT85 said:


> My little helper arrived just in time to help fit the last 3 floor boards. A rare internet appearance for her.



Enjoy those moments - before you realise it they are teenagers!

Great workshop build and makes me wish I’d got my act together to start mine in the summer. Brick delivery next week hopefully!

Thanks for making the effort to do such a good series of posts.


----------



## DBT85

Blackswanwood said:


> Enjoy those moments - before you realise it they are teenagers!
> 
> Great workshop build and makes me wish I’d got my act together to start mine in the summer. Brick delivery next week hopefully!
> 
> Thanks for making the effort to do such a good series of posts.


Oh she's 3 now and demonstrating some of that teenage angst already! No surprise piercings or all black clothes yet at least 

As I tihnk I said before, I really do not envy you trying to do it at this time of year but I wish you all the very best. Either start a thread for your build (always popular) or just ask away in here if you want to know how I did anything in particular.


----------



## AJB Temple

Great job. Lovely picture of your daughter helping too. 

We need a snap now of the workshop set up with machines and benches, and of course a tea station and 5 minutes relaxing chair.


----------



## flying haggis

dont you mean a "just" 5 minutes chair


----------



## Cabinetman

Loved the shot of your little helper, I managed to get my two, children size boiler suits when they were about six and eight so we all matched, things you do haha.
This is a shot of the rear doors to my workshop the black lines are neoprene pipe insulation, acts as a draft strip – probably complete overkill. Behind the white surface is 4 inches of insulation.


----------



## DBT85

Well the main guttering is complete and fitted with leaf guard things, joints to sort the down pipes arrive tomorrow though for the immediate future it's not actually going anywhere. A man should be coming to trench across the field soon to help with that.

I also cut 11 70mm strips of 18mm mrmdf to use as skirting. Did it in workshop 1 as frankly moving those sheets around is difficult enough without trying to get it to workshop 2. Skirting fitted and then a bit of a garden tidy room finally deal with all the scraps and offcuts.

Tomorrow I can tidy the workshop a bit and...start moving in



AJB Temple said:


> Great job. Lovely picture of your daughter helping too.
> 
> We need a snap now of the workshop set up with machines and benches, and of course a tea station and 5 minutes relaxing chair.


I'm going to upset a lot of people but I drink neither tea nor coffee! Unless it's a tiramisu I don't really like either.



Cabinetman said:


> Loved the shot of your little helper, I managed to get my two, children size boiler suits when they were about six and eight so we all matched, things you do haha.
> This is a shot of the rear doorsgoing to my workshop the black lines are neoprene pipe insulation, acts as a draft strip – probably complete overkill. Behind the white surface is 4 inches of insulation.
> 
> View attachment 94266


ahh that's a neat idea for the gap. I think I've sorted an option but well see. I have plenty of insulation here so I might do the doors too. I want to see how they cope first.


----------



## DBT85

Well I managed to get mostly moved in, though like a house move I'll be living in boxes and sorting things out for ages yet. The space looks empty!

The day started out by clearing up the mess left from all the work so far. I have almost no actual storage in my existing in house workshop so this is something that needs to be remedied soon.





I grabbed one of the metal shelving units from the dining room (temporarily put up 3 years ago and since home to the printer, board games, playdoh, lego etc). Just one unit gets so much stuff up off the floor. I do have 3 more in my office if I need them, but it only means brining all that rubbish with me so for now it can stay in there. The workshop is a workshop, not a storage unit.






With that in place and 4 horses used to lift some chipboard flooring off the floor, I now have extra space to lay things out while I work out where its all going to go. Since my first workshop came into existence my benches have been covered in tools meaning a 10 minute job always becomes at least 40 minutes as I need to find the bench first. I'd like to avoid that state now that I have room to move.

Next I had to wade into Workshop 1.0 and pack it up ready for transport. Naturally the 47 tons of cardboard boxes we've had in the house in the last 6 months have all upped and vanished so I could onyl scrounge up a couple to move everything in. Some time later I ended up with this. My tiny bandsaw and bench drill look lost. As you can see, that cabinet has no drawers or even doors, so that will be one priority just to add storage options. The workbench too needs to use up all that space under it.














Still to move is my MFT assembly table and all the wood stored within it, a couple of sheets of ply and various other offcuts. But apart from that, this is it. I have lots of room to play with and build what I need when I need it. Naturally things are not in their final positions yet. The wall with the bandsaw and drill on will likely be the wall where most tools/machines live as that's where the DX will be so it makes sense to keep it on one side where possible.

I love how a 8x4 sheet is kind of just "over there in the corner", rather than "oh balls how do I maneuver around this to maneuver this around?".

I even got a video going again for the move. I've not recorded any since I finished the front cladding as frankly I was running short on time.

Thanks to all for the support and tips along the way Especially @MikeG. of course. I'll keep updating the thread as I add workshop based entertainment and sort the windows out one I'm happy I can actually make the damned things.


----------



## flying haggis

stop showing off that all your sockets are level................

looking like it needs a nice layer of sawdust soon


----------



## DBT85

Mostly done now, time to start building things to help store all the stuff away that has never had a proper home. 

Almost looking like a workshop now.



















First couple of things to build are going to be something to get that sheet material mobile and a flip cart for my disk/belt sander and spindle sander. Until now one lived on the end of the big bench and one live under it. 

I'll nab Drew Fishers design (integrated power) and also add DX for the two tools so that it should never need anything more than flipping over to use. No faffing with power cables or dust hoses.

Something like this








flying haggis said:


> stop showing off that all your sockets are level................
> 
> looking like it needs a nice layer of sawdust soon


I'm honestly shocked that they are as level as they are. That cheap laser level did the job.


----------



## DBT85

First actual 'shop project in the new shop complete. A sheet goods rack similar to Stumpy Nubs one. I bought the castors but apart from that its just made from leftover construction timbers. which is great as it gets them off my joists too. Since my mitre saw won't do 200mm material as used for the base of this, I ended up cutting them on my MFT assembly table using the benchdogs fence and a TS55. Not really the grade of material they were designed for but they did the job. A bigger faff was the extraction hose. Until my domino arrives I'm without a Festool hose so I'm just bodging along with Charles and a rubber connector. It works fine when it stays attached!

Nothing exciting but I can now get access to the rear most sheet without first having to move every single bit in front of it. 

Work now for 4 nights from tomorrow so I'll have no workshop time but lots of thinking time so I can just design more bits like the cart above, something to put my drills in and charge them, work out what I'm doing about DX for the short term, something for my non sliding Makita mitre saw that will still work as and when it gets replaced. Not sure yet if thats cart with flip up wings or recessing it in a run of workbench which would also give me a lot of storage underneath.

In two minds whether thins stuff should be in the workshop build thread or if I should just make a projects thread. It's not like I'm dazzling any minds with this stuff!


----------



## Terrytpot

Not having a tv licence (as we don't watch live broadcasted stuff, only downloaded stuff) I'm fond of binge watching entire series of whatever it is that takes my fancy, which is easily done when you don't have to wait for next weeks show if you stumble across something well after it originally aired. Imagine my delight then in stumbling across this thread...I'm currently in the process of completely redesigning the contents of my workspace and for some light entertainment / education I have , this evening been treated to someone’s approach on how to do that from a much earlier point (no workspace at all) and to such a high standard all the way to a point that makes me ridiculously envious of their ability. Congratulations on knocking the ball clean out of the park with your workshop build! oh, and thanks for keeping me riveted to my laptop for the last 6 hrs reading the whole thread


----------



## DBT85

Wow thanks Terry! I must admit I have done the same with many a build thread over the last 10 years so I know the feeling only too well. One can only live vicariously for so long before having to do something about it. Oddly enough covid happening actually helped!


----------



## FalconFlyer

Hi! Newbie here! Unable to PM directly, but I love what you've done here, but I particularly like the LED panels.....I have hunted through the thread, but I can't see the specifications or purchase location/price.....I'd be grateful if you could add it to this thread sometime?


----------



## DBT85

I certainly can't 

I purchased the same LED panels as @Sheptonphil. He bought enough from an ebay seller that they then offered him 12 more for £256 delivered, so £21.33 each. That seller was buybest365 on ebay buybest365 on eBay.

They sadly list no products at all. I have just messaged them to see if they can get more as I might want a couple more for myself!

These panels arrived with a frame already, not like many that are frameless that need something adding to them.


----------



## FalconFlyer

Thanks for your prompt response! That is a great shame.....I don't suppose there is a part number or model code on the panels?
When I first saw your photos I thought they were skylights! I guess they must be cool white/day light at around 6000K...


----------



## DBT85

FalconFlyer said:


> Thanks for your prompt response! That is a great shame.....I don't suppose there is a part number or model code on the panels?
> When I first saw your photos I thought they were skylights! I guess they must be cool white/day light at around 6000K...


I don't recall seeing anything on the panels and I can't see anything similar on ebay at the moment. There may have been something on the boxes but those are long gone. I might have a photo so I'll have a rummage. It could be that like a lot of things stock is short because of covid.

You're not alone in thinking they are skylights, I hear it quite often. I know it looks a bit odd at first with so many in there and even I thought that the 8 in th emiddle might be OTT, but the light spread just works perfectly and its a really nice place to be working.


----------



## FalconFlyer

Looking at that ebay sellers feedback, I found this:

LED Flat Panel Light 48W 600x600mm / 72W 1200x 600mm Surface Mounted White Frame

Googling that phrase gives this Amazon link:



https://www.amazon.co.uk/Surface-Mount-Panel-Frame-Warranty/dp/B01B3CVRGO



Do they look about right?


----------



## Sheptonphil

FalconFlyer said:


> Looking at that ebay sellers feedback, I found this:
> 
> LED Flat Panel Light 48W 600x600mm / 72W 1200x 600mm Surface Mounted White Frame
> 
> Googling that phrase gives this Amazon link:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Surface-Mount-Panel-Frame-Warranty/dp/B01B3CVRGO
> 
> 
> 
> Do they look about right?


That isn’t the ones, the guys selling them are here. They were £136 for 6, or £256 for 12, poss less if more ordered. The direct email for them is The buy buy is correct at the start of the email and not a typo. The original total was LED Flat Panel Light 48W 600x600mm / 72W 1200x 600mm Surface Mounted White Frame


----------



## weekend_woodworker

FalconFlyer said:


> Looking at that ebay sellers feedback, I found this:
> 
> LED Flat Panel Light 48W 600x600mm / 72W 1200x 600mm Surface Mounted White Frame
> 
> Googling that phrase gives this Amazon link:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Surface-Mount-Panel-Frame-Warranty/dp/B01B3CVRGO
> 
> 
> 
> Do they look about right?


I recently PM’d Darren and Phil about the same question as I am going to put up some more lights in my garage. Following their help I have just received these:
Look at this on eBay
6x48W LED Panel Light Recessed Celing (Cool White 6500 K) 600 x 600 x 10mm
And
Look at this on eBay
Surface Mount Kit for 600 x 600 Led Ceiling Panel light Easy Install Chrome

Not yet fitted, but should do the job. They came out at about £22.50 for each set of light and frame.

I hope that helps.
Mark


----------



## FalconFlyer

Thanks chaps, I'll look into these links carefully.


----------



## DBT85

Hopefully the light seller comes back with more, they really are nice.

While I've been at work not actually working I've been getting started on editing more of the little videos together. There are chunks missing as frankly it was starting to get wet and dribbly and I was running out of time so I didn't film nearly as much, but there are photos that I can waffle over at least.

Still lots to do with those yet but they are coming!

I've also just sniped (gixen is your friend) a Sip 01446 12 inch 4hp tablesaw for £745 on ebay so that'll be a nice addition to the workshop. Just waiting to see when I can collect it. They are up for £1750 new so I'm happy with that. I was tempted by the 01332 that's for sale on here but I just so happened to do a search on ebay for Sip at 5:30 this morning and this popped up with 12 hours to go. 

I'll need to get a socket installed. Wonder if I should add it to the ring or just add a new circuit.


----------



## Sheptonphil

DBT85 said:


> I'll need to get a socket installed. Wonder if I should add it to the ring or just add a new circuit.


Good find. You’ll need a separate circuit for a 4hp, possibly 20A, 16A would be borderline.


----------



## DBT85

@FalconFlyer and anyone else looking for the LED panels I used. The seller has just messaged me back and said they have 72 in stock in the uk. Message them and tell them how many you want and they'll arrange a price for you.

this is their ebay page, click contact in the top corner






buybest365 on eBay


Follow buybest365 on eBay. Buying, Selling, Collecting on eBay has never been more exciting!



www.ebay.co.uk


----------



## GerryKnowles

Hi Guys, I have previously offered to help with lighting, if you are looking for panels we offer a 5 year guaranteed panel 600x600mm 45w in warm/cool and daylight for £19.02 inc vat , the chipset is Samsung and they come complete with plug and play driver. Any questions feel free to call me on 01494 880099






LED Panels - LED Fittings - Light Fittings







www.lamps-on-line.com


----------



## Spectric

Hi

Yes plenty of 13 amp sockets but any reason why you did not require any 16 amp sockets or not intending to run bigger machinery.


----------



## DBT85

Spectric said:


> Hi
> 
> Yes plenty of 13 amp sockets but any reason why you did not require any 16 amp sockets or not intending to run bigger machinery.


I didn't have any that needed it and had no expectaton of getting any soon, nor did I know where I would want them. Now that I have a car full of cast iron to assemble tomorrow, I will get a 16a installed for that by my electrician at the end of next week. It's sitting on my kitchen worktop along with more 2.5mm t&e to run in.

Had I thought I'd be getting a saw like this 2 weeks after the initial install I'd have had it done then!


----------



## Spectric

Hi 

suprised your sparky is not running 4.00 mm radials and is still using 2.5mm rings!!


----------



## DBT85

Spectric said:


> Hi
> 
> suprised your sparky is not running 4.00 mm radials and is still using 2.5mm rings!!


The whole lot just goes literally around the whole workshop so he was happy using a ring. I can't see a 4mm radial being a better option in this instance.


----------



## mikej460

Just had a look at the listing of the table saw you bought and it looks good. I was interested in the Kity 1619 advertised on the forum as it also looks a good un but I already have a 619 in bits and in storage until I build my new workshop. If I decide to upgrade I think I will wait for one with a decent cast iron table so I'd be very interested in your review of the SIP once you've given it a good test.


----------



## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> Just had a look at the listing of the table saw you bought and it looks good. I was interested in the Kity 1619 advertised on the forum as it also looks a good un but I already have a 619 in bits and in storage until I build my new workshop. If I decide to upgrade I think I will wait for one with a decent cast iron table so I'd be very interested in your review of the SIP once you've given it a good test.


Yeah I'll be putting together a bit of a writeup on it in the tools section here as there isn't much out there for these saws. I've already lready started taking apart a bit further and detailing what I've found.

I was stunned that the main table alone comes in at 50kg before you add the side tables or motor mount! Wife was a bit narked that the scales were in the workshop though.

I'm at work now for the weekend so no more on the workshop or the saw, but I'm going to work further on the progress videos. There are now about 4 that are 90% cut and just need the awkward VO done.


----------



## DBT85

The flip cart for the sanders is on its way though I've had to abandon hope for the integrated DX. I was getting ahead of myself.

Plans drawn in Fusion, and then I used an extension called MapBoards to lay it out on a sheet of ply. I didn't entirely agree with where it placed things but it was my first time using it so maybe I did a dumb. I then used a Fusion Drawing to mark out dimensions for the twiddly bits. Both prunted it was time to head off t'shed.

The idea






The cutsheet (not putting all of the box fillets together was weird to me so ignored it for that)





Twiddly bits





Anyway, a little time on the MFT and my first real use of the TS55 and my first real project in my new workshop. It was largely heaven. Bright, spacious, everything not piled up on the area I was trying to work. Bliss. The only pain in the backside was the vacuum hose snagging and falling out of the dust port on the TS55. Something to be partly remedied when a new hose arrives and partly when I make a boom. Dust collection in general will be nice to finally sort out, but not just yet.

All the parts cut up and labelled, now on to the twiddly bits. My first screw-up came when using the tracksaw to cut the box base cutouts. I just went too far on one side, but not so far as to weaken it too much. Next up was cutting the notches in the sides, partly done with the tracksaw and then finished up with a wonky AF jigsaw. Next I needed to round 2 corners otherwise the flip top, won't. One could probably have been perched on the disk sander but the other wasn't going to work. Ah Ha, I remember what this hobby is all about now. So I made a little jig from a scrap of 6mm MDF with 4 different radius corners, double sided tape to hold it down and then used my little Bosch palm router. Done.

Now I needed a hole in each side panel to take the dowel and the same hole in the sides of the spinning platform. My random bit of curtain rail was ~28mm, I have a 29mm hole saw and a 30mm forstner bit, perfect. I'm also well aware that I struggle to drill straight. Given my uses, the 29mm hole saw was close enough so I cut a hole in anther bit of 6mm mdf and once again used it to route the holes required, first drilling out a 16mm hole with a spade bit to give my tiny pattern bit a little help and somewhere to descend into. Much less of a pain than trying to do it on my tiny bench drill, and much more accurate than me trying to do it with a hand drill.

Everything cut to size





The joy of a vice. No need to try and hold these edges together by hand to drill and screw.





The main unit assembled and wheeled





Flip base and disk/belt sander mounted





What the flip bed looks like





The bleary eyed among you may see a small issue. I didn't account for the belt part sticking out that far so like a tit I've mounted the unit it where it can't flip down unless I've lifted the belt up. I'll move that over tomorrow and finish up the last bit. Will be pleased to finally have these 2 off of my benches/floor and easily usable. But it works, it flips.


----------



## Stanleymonkey

Good idea hiding extra cable inside the 'flip bed'


----------



## DBT85

Stanleymonkey said:


> Good idea hiding extra cable inside the 'flip bed'


Just the leftovers! No grand plan behind it haha.


----------



## DBT85

Thats the main unit done. I still need to sort a drawer out but have no hardware on hand so maybe I'll do it the old fashioned way.






I re mounted the belt sander so that it could flip over without needing to be tilted up as it was yesterday. Apart from that it all came together ok. Might put some triangles on the back to help prevent racking, though once I put a back on the drawer area that will probably help.

Happy that thats done. No more bench space or floor space taken up with them getting in the way, and apart from dust extraction which will be done soon, they are now easy to get to and use.


----------



## mikej460

Nice design, I've filed it away under 'fit out' 
Couple of questions:
Does the cabinet vibrate when a sander is on or is it solid?
Would you recommend the sanders?

thanks

Mike


----------



## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> Nice design, I've filed it away under 'fit out'


I'd love to take the credit but it's just a clone of one done by a chap called Drew Fisher. You can buy plans but I just looked at his and worked it out which I'm sure most would also do. Though he does sell lots of plans for those that just want a cutlist.

Drawer will be sorted on Monday as its already cut, just not put together yet. Finally my disk sander and all associated sanding paraphernalia will have a home.


----------



## mikej460

Just watched his video of the Oneida Dust Collector, very entertaining.


----------



## DBT85

On that subject, I've just won a never used 3hp/2200w extractor on ebay for £205. least I can find them new for is over £350 and more often over £450. Have already asked a filter company about proper filters for it. @Inspector will be proud


----------



## clogs

glad to see ur making progress...hahaha.....nice one.....
how do u get on with the floor matting.....?


----------



## DBT85

clogs said:


> glad to see ur making progress...hahaha.....nice one.....
> how do u get on with the floor matting.....?


No floor matting in here at this point. Just the slab, 60mm of insulation and then a floating 22mm chipboard floor on top of that.


----------



## DBT85

When you go and buy some BB drawer slides for your fancy new cabinet, make sure you get the right flippin length.  I have a 500 deep cabinet and a nice 550 deep pair of slides to keep for a later project. Dolt.

At least I have the table saw to keep fiddling with and a new extractor to build to keep me honest. Was hoping to finish that drawer today though!


----------



## DBT85

You _are_ delighted to see Episode 6 of the build covering internal OSB all the way to the battens on the outside.


----------



## PAC1

DBT85 said:


> When you go and buy some BB drawer slides for your fancy new cabinet, make sure you get the right flippin length.  I have a 500 deep cabinet and a nice 550 deep pair of slides to keep for a later project. Dolt.
> 
> At least I have the table saw to keep fiddling with and a new extractor to build to keep me honest. Was hoping to finish that drawer today though!


I have still got several pairs of 550mm runners 10 years on. The problem is they are an unusual size so unless you design them in to a project you will still have them in 10 years as well.


----------



## DBT85

PAC1 said:


> I have still got several pairs of 550mm runners 10 years on. The problem is they are an unusual size so unless you design them in to a project you will still have them in 10 years as well.


I'm fortunate that I only have the one pair and that that I have plenty of units to make and places I could use them indoors if needed!


----------



## Glitch

Great video.

My roof is 'flat' and max 2.5m and it was still scary. Took a while to build up some confidence.

Could you have started at the bottom of the roof and put some battens on as you go? 
Then you'd have something to stop you sliding off? Just a thought for others.

Also, why not insulate the window openings but without the foam? Easy to remove if/when you decide to install them and no cold spots this winter.

Hard work doing that single handed - but satisfying. Especially those boards.

When I started I didn't have the technique/grip/strength to carry 11mm boards let alone the 18mm ones. Eventually got the knack and was throwing them up on the roof. Found there's a board carrier gadget but too late by then.

Looking forward to P7


----------



## Cirks

Glitch said:


> Found there's a board carrier gadget but too late by then.


When I was putting my 18mm on the summerhouse (that I'm building) roof, the board carrier/lifting gadget I had was free....... He's my 17 yr old son - his workout for the day ;-)


----------



## Blackswanwood

@DBT85 - a quick question if I may ...

It looks like you have used 18 or 22mm caberfloor - did you lay it straight on the concrete or does it need an underlay first?

Cheers


----------



## NickVanBeest

DBT85 said:


> You _are_ delighted to see Episode 6 of the build covering internal OSB all the way to the battens on the outside.



Curious... the videos are not listed on your page, so can't find episodes 1 to 5?

Shows "unlisted" on the video's page itself, and none of them on your videos page:


----------



## DBT85

Glitch said:


> Great video.
> 
> My roof is 'flat' and max 2.5m and it was still scary. Took a while to build up some confidence.
> 
> Could you have started at the bottom of the roof and put some battens on as you go?
> Then you'd have something to stop you sliding off? Just a thought for others.
> 
> Also, why not insulate the window openings but without the foam? Easy to remove if/when you decide to install them and no cold spots this winter.
> 
> Hard work doing that single handed - but satisfying. Especially those boards.
> 
> When I started I didn't have the technique/grip/strength to carry 11mm boards let alone the 18mm ones. Eventually got the knack and was throwing them up on the roof. Found there's a board carrier gadget but too late by then.
> 
> Looking forward to P7


I absolutely should have started at the bottom with a couple of securing battens and worked my way up. I was a fool doing it the way I did. A gnat farts at 100 paces and the membrane billows all over the place!

I didn't do the openings at the time because I thought I might actually get to the windows this year . It was only later once I had to go back to work that it became readily apparent that they would have to wait.

As for the boards. Yeah, I'm glad I only had 11mm OSB to worry about. The walls were easy enough but those 4 nearly whole ones could have been done in 1/6th the time with a gopher to help.



Blackswanwood said:


> @DBT85 - a quick question if I may ...
> 
> It looks like you have used 18 or 22mm caberfloor - did you lay it straight on the concrete or does it need an underlay first?
> 
> Cheers


I just put it on more of the insulation board as I didn't insulate the slab. The reason for not insulating the slab was that I'm not going to be in there 8 hours a day putting heat into the slab and using it as



NickVanBeest said:


> Curious... the videos are not listed on your page, so can't find episodes 1 to 5?
> 
> Shows "unlisted" on the video's page itself, and none of them on your videos page:
> 
> View attachment 97346
> 
> View attachment 97347


Ahh sorry Nick. They are unlisted at the moment to prevent them appearing in a search. The links for them are all in the OP and reproduced here.

Time Lapse videos
Part 1 - Site clearance
Part 2 - Digging a hole
Part 3 - Filling it up
Part 4 - Brick and Block
Part 5 - Framing


----------



## giantbeat

i love this thread, what an amazing build... well done


----------



## DBT85

giantbeat said:


> i love this thread, what an amazing build... well done


Thank you! I promise I'll render the other 2 videos at some point 

Not much going on due to work and other stuff. I did finally add some more drawers to the bandsaw cabinet I hacked together 18 months ago. Boy was that a learning experience. The only other drawer I've made was on the flip cart and being one drawer you don;t have to think about spacings and stuff.

With the table saw proving to be good enough I managed to cut all the parts to size and then cut a slot for the 6mm ply bottoms also on the table saw. That all went without incident. I'd have rather used a router table to do the slot but since I haven't yet nailed my router to a board I just took the route that will make people squirm.

Since the domino had arrived I figured a bit of practise would be useful so I used it to help make the drawers. They are only 12mm ply so I just used the 4mm dominos. A few slots were not quite right but easily rectified, all user error. I managed to not set the depth wrong and blow clean through one side which was nice! I did however manage to blow out a little when putting the glue and dominos in on a couple of parts. Slowly slowly putting them dominos in helps there.

Next was getting the runners in the cabinet. As I said, this cabinet was made some time ago just to be A.Size. No planning went in to it so drawers were made to fit it. I opted for 2x 150mm deep and 2x 100mm deep with a gap between. The bottom runners are easy right? Just use the base as a reference. After that though they need to be spaced correctly. Balls. A bit of faffing and I got that done and got the drawers all fitted. Somehow not all as evenly as I'd liked.

Then I cut the fronts from one lump of ply, I even took care to get the grain matching. I cut the sheet a fraction too small for some reason and so I couldn't make all the fronts exactly the size I wanted, so these are 3 different sizes rather than 2! Then I cut them to length with the tracksaw and cut one too short. Fortunately a clean cut so I glued the offcut back on and re cut it and you can't see it now. Phew.

Just time to fit them all in then, right? Did that and the right hand side are not sitting flush with the cabinet. Why? The runners aren't in square to the face of the cabinet. Why? Because the base isn't in square and I referenced off of it! More faffing around and finally they're all in. I need to just chamfer the edge a bit and make some handles, but I learned a lot, not only what to do but what to think about for the next lot. I know some of you must think I'm a right . for being able to build a workship but cockup some drawers! 

Most importantly I finally have some more space to put things away. Just the 5 drawers I have will make a big difference and there is still a lot to do.

The electrician is back hopefully this week to fit my other 16A socket for the extractor. In the new year I can decide what I'm doing about getting that plumbed up.




[url=https://flic.kr/p/2keoqA2]


----------



## DBT85

After using the large sheet cart for a few months I've decided its not working out. To get one sheet off I had to move the whole thing out into the middle of the floor, get the sheets off and then slide it all back. Entirely impractical. at 2400x800mm footprint it also took up a fair amount of space and wasn't that great for smaller offcuts.






Instead, I have made a standing storage by the door. It's the width of one stud gap or so, so doesn't take up nearly as much room. I can't slide a full sheet up against the underside of the rafters as its not quite tall enough at the eaves, but the gap that remains can either be used to hide part of the extractor or eventually become a cupboard or something. This new storage method only takes up about 500x1200 of floor space, but because it's right by the door I don't need to keep any extra space clear to actually get to the sheets as the door obviously has to remain clear anyway. This is also better as hauling sheets all across the property was daft enough, without then having to shift them to the far corner of the workshop.

With this in place I might put a sheet of OSB over this visible side and essentially get more wall space back. This was only quickly thrown up with some 50x25 roof batten, though its more than strong enough to take the loads being applied by sheets standing up like this. The top of those battens is overlapped 150mm with the rafter ties and its up near there that most lateral load is being applied.










Oh and I made a utility room corner cabinet topped with oak worktop. This is the single door (my first) required on it. It and the 2 drawer fronts are currently drying after their first 2 coats of Farrow and Ball Blue Ground paint to match the kitchen. I used the domino to join the rails and stiles and had to unguard the tablsaw to route the groove for the panel. I really need sort out a router in a board.






Will get a pic of it when its all finished.


----------



## Keefy.

DBT85 said:


> After using the large sheet cart for a few months I've decided its not working out. To get one sheet off I had to move the whole thing out into the middle of the floor, get the sheets off and then slide it all back. Entirely impractical. at 2400x800mm footprint it also took up a fair amount of space and wasn't that great for smaller offcuts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead, I have made a standing storage by the door. It's the width of one stud gap or so, so doesn't take up nearly as much room. I can't slide a full sheet up against the underside of the rafters as its not quite tall enough at the eaves, but the gap that remains can either be used to hide part of the extractor or eventually become a cupboard or something. This new storage method only takes up about 500x1200 of floor space, but because it's right by the door I don't need to keep any extra space clear to actually get to the sheets as the door obviously has to remain clear anyway. This is also better as hauling sheets all across the property was daft enough, without then having to shift them to the far corner of the workshop.
> 
> With this in place I might put a sheet of OSB over this visible side and essentially get more wall space back. This was only quickly thrown up with some 50x25 roof batten, though its more than strong enough to take the loads being applied by sheets standing up like this. The top of those battens is overlapped 150mm with the rafter ties and its up near there that most lateral load is being applied.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and I made a utility room corner cabinet topped with oak worktop. This is the single door (my first) required on it. It and the 2 drawer fronts are currently drying after their first 2 coats of Farrow and Ball Blue Ground paint to match the kitchen. I used the domino to join the rails and stiles and had to unguard the tablsaw to route the groove for the panel. I really need sort out a router in a board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will get a pic of it when its all finished.


Makes sense. I've always found it easier to plonk sheet materials down'vertically' (easier on the back) even though I've used a sheet lifter.


----------



## DBT85

Well nice news was that my delivery of MRMDF is all Medite now after Kellaway Worcester switched from some other random brand. So I've got enough in for a few other projects I'd like to get done.

In other news the utility cabinet is done. The doors are painted but how long that paint lasts is an experiment in itself. I'm assuming the doors we got when we ordered the actual kitchen had some kind of hardener or something added to/on top of the paint as after 5 years the doors are all still perfect.

The finish is different as these were rollered, but since it's in a different but adjacent room, it's not obvious but still matches so that wins points.

On the cabinet itself, I'm happy with it overall. The gap between doors and drawer fronts is a little snug so I need to leave more room next time. There are a couple of places where my experiments with edge banding trimming went through the very thin veneer on the ply, but none that are noticeable with the doors on. I've refined my method for that now which was at least good practise.

On hinges/sliders, the blum bluemotion hinges are great and have the damper built in. I've disabled one for this door. I guess in a larger application one could use one soft close and one standard like you do with the plug on dampers. The drawer slides are ball bearing full extension. They roll fine but feel/sound like something is rubbing somewhere. I'm used to my kitchen units which are branded ultima but I think are actually blum tandembox, so the the feel is different there. Maybe I could splurge on the tandem drawer runners but I'm sure the sizing would be different.

Anyway, it's a job done, space intelligently filled and now actually useful rather than just having rubbish pile up there.

Until next time!


----------



## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> Well nice news was that my delivery of MRMDF is all Medite now after Kellaway Worcester switched from some other random brand. So I've got enough in for a few other projects I'd like to get done.
> 
> In other news the utility cabinet is done. The doors are painted but how long that paint lasts is an experiment in itself. I'm assuming the doors we got when we ordered the actual kitchen had some kind of hardener or something added to/on top of the paint as after 5 years the doors are all still perfect.
> 
> The finish is different as these were rollered, but since it's in a different but adjacent room, it's not obvious but still matches so that wins points.
> 
> On the cabinet itself, I'm happy with it overall. The gap between doors and drawer fronts is a little snug so I need to leave more room next time. There are a couple of places where my experiments with edge banding trimming went through the very thin veneer on the ply, but none that are noticeable with the doors on. I've refined my method for that now which was at least good practise.
> 
> On hinges/sliders, the blum bluemotion hinges are great and have the damper built in. I've disabled one for this door. I guess in a larger application one could use one soft close and one standard like you do with the plug on dampers. The drawer slides are ball bearing full extension. They roll fine but feel/sound like something is rubbing somewhere. I'm used to my kitchen units which are branded ultima but I think are actually blum tandembox, so the the feel is different there. Maybe I could splurge on the tandem drawer runners but I'm sure the sizing would be different.
> 
> Anyway, it's a job done, space intelligently filled and now actually useful rather than just having rubbish pile up there.
> 
> Until next time!


very smart and professional looking. I'm planning to do our utility room doors in MRMDF. Did you buy the worktops from Ikea ready made or did you route them yourself?


----------



## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> very smart and professional looking. I'm planning to do our utility room doors in MRMDF. Did you buy the worktops from Ikea ready made or did you route them yourself?


Just bought a 2m lump on ebay, though in the past I used worktop express. This only has a straight join though with solid worktop I'm not sure I see a reason to have the fancy join we do with laminate? There's no hiding the join when you've got staves at right angles to the adjacent piece!


----------



## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> Just bought a 2m lump on ebay, though in the past I used worktop express. This only has a straight join though with solid worktop I'm not sure I see a reason to have the fancy join we do with laminate? There's no hiding the join when you've got staves at right angles to the adjacent piece!


So did you just butt them then round over with the router? It looks very neat. What finish did you use?


----------



## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> So did you just butt them then round over with the router? It looks very neat. What finish did you use?


Yeah I butt joined with worktop bolts and did the round over in the workshop. It's 3 coats of Osmo 3032. Same as we've got in the kitchen and it's been great for 5 years maintenance free.


----------



## Snettymakes

I'm in the planning stages (unfortunately planning permission) of a build that's hopefully going to be quite a bit bigger (45m2) than you've shared. Your build log has very much inspired me to self build, but I don't want to take on something and realise too late that it's bigger than I can manage.

Am I correct in thinking that you were able to work on it (nearly) full time for the first month or so? Do you think you could estimate how many days you've put in to it?


----------



## DBT85

Snettymakes said:


> I'm in the planning stages (unfortunately planning permission) of a build that's hopefully going to be quite a bit bigger (45m2) than you've shared. Your build log has very much inspired me to self build, but I don't want to take on something and realise too late that it's bigger than I can manage.
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that you were able to work on it (nearly) full time for the first month or so? Do you think you could estimate how many days you've put in to it?


Honestly I'm not sure. I still had a 3 year old that I wanted to help look after so I wasn't working as late as I could every day and with that in mind I also didn't always start much before 10! A lot of time was spent learning as I'd never laid a brick or made even a stud wall before, despite being very handy in general.

Also remember 95% was done entirely alone. I had a little help for the hole being dug and the pour, and then the only other help I had was lifting the walls up. That help came from a 70+ year old farmer who does like to talk!

I'd like to think if I were doing another today I could go from brick plinth to roof on in a shorter span, if only because it isn't all new to me. Hopefully something in this thread among all the others can help you and anyone else bypass a bit of the uncertainty we get when taking on a project this big for the first time.

I went from starting framing to the tiles being on in about a month, in hindsight that seems like ages, but there's a new house build half a mile from here that had already stated when I did and the roof is still only half finished!

A larger footprint shouldn't really take that much longer. Its really going to be in the roof covering that'll make the larger difference. If you can get any construction minded assistant that's fit and able at all it could go much faster.

But yes, in essence I was on it full time. The date stamps in the OP fmgive an idea of how long it took.


----------



## Snettymakes

DBT85 said:


> Honestly I'm not sure. I still had a 3 year old that I wanted to help look after so I wasn't working as late as I could every day and with that in mind I also didn't always start much before 10! A lot of time was spent learning as I'd never laid a brick or made even a stud wall before, despite being very handy in general.
> 
> Also remember 95% was done entirely alone. I had a little help for the hole being dug and the pour, and then the only other help I had was lifting the walls up. That help came from a 70+ year old farmer who does like to talk!
> 
> I'd like to think if I were doing another today I could go from brick plinth to roof on in a shorter span, if only because it isn't all new to me. Hopefully something in this thread among all the others can help you and anyone else bypass a bit of the uncertainty we get when taking on a project this big for the first time.
> 
> I went from starting framing to the tiles being on in about a month, in hindsight that seems like ages, but there's a new house build half a mile from here that had already stated when I did and the roof is still only half finished!
> 
> A larger footprint shouldn't really take that much longer. Its really going to be in the roof covering that'll make the larger difference. If you can get any construction minded assistant that's fit and able at all it could go much faster.
> 
> But yes, in essence I was on it full time. The date stamps in the OP fmgive an idea of how long it took.



As somebody with no children, I'm not one for starting much before 10 either . My wife would be able to provide some assistance, and I have a roofer on my estate that I'm somewhat friendly with.

My heart tells me to build it, my head (and wife) tells me to throw money at it


----------



## DBT85

Snettymakes said:


> As somebody with no children, I'm not one for starting much before 10 either . My wife would be able to provide some assistance, and I have a roofer on my estate that I'm somewhat friendly with.
> 
> My heart tells me to build it, my head (and wife) tells me to throw money at it


If you've got the money then sure, its certainly gets it done a lot faster and with a lot less back ache. But if you feel you're handy enough and have the time then do it! Its a huge sense of pride and everyone that sees it thinks I'm frankly amazing haha. Most of the folk we know havn't had a chance yet as they've not been over thanks to covid, but my wife has been sharing pics on facebook about her husbands large erection and getting lots of interest  

I've wanted to do this for years, but lockdown 1.0 finally gave me the chance to be home enough to make it happen. We'll all be here to help with moral support and advice when you need it.


----------



## Spectric

Looks like an impressive build



DBT85 said:


> Power and network will be trenched in (with a gap between them) approx 25m from the house with my electrician to give me the electricity cable spec. We could probably get away with 6mm 2 core SWA just fine but will most likely be 10mm 2 core SWA to keep the regs happy. We have a TT supply so a earth rod will have to be installed near the workshop negating the need for 3 core from the CU.



You don't need 10mm cable because you have a TT means of earthing but thinking ahead it will provide a measure of future proofing if you ever get some large piece of machinery and will also keep any volt drops lower. Also rather than just burying it we always used to run them in pvc ducts.






38mm Coiled Electric Duct | Ducting | Drainage Online


Our Coiled Electric Duct is 38mm in diameter and available as a 50m or 100m coil. Order today at DrainageOnline.co.uk for competitive pricing.




www.drainageonline.co.uk





As for your drain, just dig a soakaway, unless you are going for the luxury of a shower/bath then it will be fine and the tap is essential in order to keep the kettle filled.


----------



## Snettymakes

DBT85 said:


> everyone that sees it thinks I'm frankly amazing



honestly my number 1 motivation


----------



## DBT85

Spectric said:


> Looks like an impressive build
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need 10mm cable because you have a TT means of earthing but thinking ahead it will provide a measure of future proofing if you ever get some large piece of machinery and will also keep any volt drops lower. Also rather than just burying it we always used to run them in pvc ducts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 38mm Coiled Electric Duct | Ducting | Drainage Online
> 
> 
> Our Coiled Electric Duct is 38mm in diameter and available as a 50m or 100m coil. Order today at DrainageOnline.co.uk for competitive pricing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drainageonline.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for your drain, just dig a soakaway, unless you are going for the luxury of a shower/bath then it will be fine and the tap is essential in order to keep the kettle filled.


Bit late to the party there Spectric, electrics were signed off months ago! Though I'm interested why you think I wouldn't need 10mm cable due to the type or earth? What does one have to do with the other?

Mine was buried in PVC ducting.

No need for a kettle in my workshop as I don't partake. A mini fridge might be nice though.


----------



## Spectric

Regulation 13.7.2 applies to outbuildings with extraneous conductive parts and in particular 411.3.1.2 requires that if the property is supplied by a Protective Multiple Earthing (PME) / TN-C-S where the DNO provides a combined Neutral and Earth then the main protective bonding conductors must be 10mm2 from the supply MET to the extraneous conductive parts in the outbuilding. If there are no extraneous conductive parts in the outbuilding or you are not on a PME system then this reg no longer applies along with the 10mm2 bonding. If you were on a PME system then you could run just Live and Neutral from the property and use an Earth rod/mesh so with your TT supply you need earth rod and RCD in outbuilding probably needing an S type protective device to protect the cable at the supply end to provide discrimination, but cable size determined by max load and length of run only, not a requirement to meet min bonding.


----------



## DBT85

Spectric said:


> Regulation 13.7.2 applies to outbuildings with extraneous conductive parts and in particular 411.3.1.2 requires that if the property is supplied by a Protective Multiple Earthing (PME) / TN-C-S where the DNO provides a combined Neutral and Earth then the main protective bonding conductors must be 10mm2 from the supply MET to the extraneous conductive parts in the outbuilding. If there are no extraneous conductive parts in the outbuilding or you are not on a PME system then this reg no longer applies along with the 10mm2 bonding. If you were on a PME system then you could run just Live and Neutral from the property and use an Earth rod/mesh so with your TT supply you need earth rod and RCD in outbuilding probably needing an S type protective device to protect the cable at the supply end to provide discrimination, but cable size determined by max load and length of run only, not a requirement to meet min bonding.


Ahh ok interesting!

10mm was on the spec more for the amount of things I might have running at once over that distance really. 4hp tablesaw, 3hp extractor, 2kw heater, 12 LED panels etc.


----------



## Spectric

Yes and also thinking ahead, no point having a supply that only meets your demand today, we all know that at some point we will visit a show or see something we like and buy it, and want our workshop to handle the power and not have to do any alterations.


----------



## DBT85

Well after being busy sorting out that loft bed for a friend (and getting paid for the honour) it's been busy enough at home.






We had a digger on site for some work on the pond so father in law sent him my way to dig a chuffing enormous trench for the runoff from the roof. This feeds into existing drainage. It'll be nice to actually have it go somewhere. There were times in the last 8 weeks where its literally just sat there like a moat. Once this is done I can fill said moat properly. And finally clear up my building site in the field!






I've also been in contact with Dan at www.djnuk.co.uk about a fine filter for the extractor. Based on the spec sheets provided (unlike most woodworking shops it seems) I'm going to pick up a 600mm cylinder filter from them and it should just about drop right on to the housing I have. Based on the spec sheet this is all I need for this extractor even if it were running at full chat with no restrictions on a larger impeller, none of which are going to be the case. And its Class M as well.

I'm amidst transforming Indoor Workshop into Childs Bedroom and with that and other painting on the immediate horizon, I've used some of my bed making money to get a Graco Ultra cordless sprayer which will greatly increase my skill in... masking. Hopefully.

Also treated (trut?) myself to the 25 bit set of Fisch HSS lip and spur bits.

Pics of trenches and pipes and filters when they are available.


----------



## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> Well after being busy sorting out that loft bed for a friend (and getting paid for the honour) it's been busy enough at home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had a digger on site for some work on the pond so father in law sent him my way to dig a chuffing enormous trench for the runoff from the roof. This feeds into existing drainage. It'll be nice to actually have it go somewhere. There were times in the last 8 weeks where its literally just sat there like a moat. Once this is done I can fill said moat properly. And finally clear up my building site in the field!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've also been in contact with Dan at www.djnuk.co.uk about a fine filter for the extractor. Based on the spec sheets provided (unlike most woodworking shops it seems) I'm going to pick up a 600mm cylinder filter from them and it should just about drop right on to the housing I have. Based on the spec sheet this is all I need for this extractor even if it were running at full chat with no restrictions on a larger impeller, none of which are going to be the case. And its Class M as well.
> 
> I'm amidst transforming Indoor Workshop into Childs Bedroom and with that and other painting on the immediate horizon, I've used some of my bed making money to get a Graco Ultra cordless sprayer which will greatly increase my skill in... masking. Hopefully.
> 
> Also treated (trut?) myself to the 25 bit set of Fisch HSS lip and spur bits.
> 
> Pics of trenches and pipes and filters when they are available.


Where did that f'huge digger come from, a motorway job?? and how many beds did you have to make to buy that sprayer?  Done anymore work on fitting out the shop? I'm hoping to start mine next month


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## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> Where did that f'huge digger come from, a motorway job?? and how many beds did you have to make to buy that sprayer?  Done anymore work on fitting out the shop? I'm hoping to start mine next month


Ha not a motorway job, my father in law knows lots of people who have kit like that. It's parked on the farm until they need it elsewhere!

That bed covered 2/3 of the sprayer, though in reality I also got the drill bits, some extra metric tape measures and this filter, so the sprayer is being spread out. Arrived today so that was nice and fast and it's a CE one not a grey import in case of issues. It'll get used first to do this bedroom and some jobs in the holiday cottages at the end of March so that'll be it paid for. It's also yet another tool that can be sold on for minimal losses if needed.

Not really had time to get in the workshop and do much else to it if I'm honest. I still need to make some kind of place for the mitre saw to live and the extra storage that will come with it. But I've not even put handles on the drawers I made yet lol. I have so many things to do that improving the space is at the bottom of the list by comparison. I do my TV work, help run the cottages, do or help do accounts for 3 businesses, help out my in laws, and obviously try to dad on top of it all.

There's also an element of comitting to making the thing I want to make for the space. For example I out off nailing the router to a board for ages but in the end it took me less than an hour. But it paid for itself in time just because I probably added a round over to 50m worth of material for that bed!

Making the workshop better will be a long term thing anyway. Still no cyclone, still no proper filter on the extractor (it's on order) etc. Not even begun to think about the windows. Just busy busy busy.

The important thing is I can get in there and work. The same people that wanted the bed now want a 3m wide floor to ceiling built in. So that'll be good experience and some more money.

Looking forward to following your build Mike. Deffo nice to wait for better weather!


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## mikej460

Thanks, it will be a bit different after conversations with MikeG, I've settled my mind on the base but not quite on the dimensions. MikeG recommended I reduce the footprint to below 30m2 to avoid building regs resulting in my losing over 2 metres in length and another in width, so I'm reluctant to lose the space. I've just built a knock down mft that I am very pleased with (more later on the thread I started on this) as it's a great bench for dimensioning full sheets and framing (I'm currently building a greenhouse for my wife) but it obviously takes up a lot of workshop space when assembled so would not fit using the proposed reduced shop size and layout. Decisions decisions


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## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> Thanks, it will be a bit different after conversations with MikeG, I've settled my mind on the base but not quite on the dimensions. MikeG recommended I reduce the footprint to below 30m2 to avoid building regs resulting in my losing over 2 metres in length and another in width, so I'm reluctant to lose the space. I've just built a knock down mft that I am very pleased with (more later on the thread I started on this) as it's a great bench for dimensioning full sheets and framing (I'm currently building a greenhouse for my wife) but it obviously takes up a lot of workshop space when assembled so would not fit using the proposed reduced shop size and layout. Decisions decisions


Needing building control would significantly add to the costs involved. If you've got the money then go for it. 30m2 is quite substantial. Ive got a sellers style bench, a 2m x 0.8m mft, a full sized table saw, a 2.4m sheet cart as well as other rubbish and there's still plenty of room in there. 

Depends how much other stuff you want to put in. 

Also remember that the 30m2 limit is only for one building. So long as they aren't connected you could just build 2 of that size (and join them in 5 years).


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## Jameshow

DBT85 said:


> Needing building control would significantly add to the costs involved. If you've got the money then go for it. 30m2 is quite substantial. Ive got a sellers style bench, a 2m x 0.8m mft, a full sized table saw, a 2.4m sheet cart as well as other rubbish and there's still plenty of room in there.
> 
> Depends how much other stuff you want to put in.
> 
> Also remember that the 30m2 limit is only for one building. So long as they aren't connected you could just build 2 of that size (and join them in 5 years).


With a train carriage style connector between the two! 

Cheers James


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## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> Needing building control would significantly add to the costs involved. If you've got the money then go for it. 30m2 is quite substantial. Ive got a sellers style bench, a 2m x 0.8m mft, a full sized table saw, a 2.4m sheet cart as well as other rubbish and there's still plenty of room in there.
> 
> Depends how much other stuff you want to put in.
> 
> Also remember that the 30m2 limit is only for one building. So long as they aren't connected you could just build 2 of that size (and join them in 5 years).


Thanks, there's already an outbuilding next to it that I recently renovated and I had planned to join the two with a 2m roofed walk through but MikeG warned that building control would class it all as one building.


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## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> Thanks, there's already an outbuilding next to it that I recently renovated and I had planned to join the two with a 2m roofed walk through but MikeG warned that building control would class it all as one building.


Ah yeah. You could just omit the roofed walk through but have it quietly planned for later. 

Realistically it would be useful to have one room for maybe wood storage and one for actual work, or use one as a finishing room or something.


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## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> Ah yeah. You could just omit the roofed walk through but have it quietly planned for later.
> 
> Realistically it would be useful to have one room for maybe wood storage and one for actual work, or use one as a finishing room or something.


Not sure if I've explained it properly. This was the original design with existing outbuilding on the left and new workshop (replacing an 1970s garage) on the right. The roofed walkthrough has no front or back.




I'm now resigned to allowing for connecting the 2 at a later date.


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## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> Not sure if I've explained it properly. This was the original design with existing outbuilding on the left and new workshop (replacing an 1970s garage) on the right. The roofed walkthrough has no front or back.
> View attachment 105809
> 
> I'm now resigned to allowing for connecting the 2 at a later date.


Christ man what are you building, boats?

But yeah, That's kind of what I Imagined you meant. Maybe not on that scale! They are big enough you could easily do something to partition one for wood storage and finishing if you wanted to.


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## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> Christ man what are you building, boats?
> 
> But yeah, That's kind of what I Imagined you meant. Maybe not on that scale! They are big enough you could easily do something to partition one for wood storage and finishing if you wanted to.


 The outbuilding is split into 3 - a tool shed for all the garden tools and two loose boxes for lambing my sheep. This was previously 3 stables and falling down/flooding. The garage is currently 11m x 4.25m so loads of space but also floods so the slab has to be raised by 220mm to bring it level with the raised outbuilding. So a smaller slab on larger slab challenge. The existing slab is solid so MikeG reckoned it was OK to lay a new one on.


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## DBT85

Ahh, I'm guessing that despite an existing building already being there, that doesn't give you the freedom to just knock it down and rebuild it without needing building regs?


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## mikej460

DBT85 said:


> Ahh, I'm guessing that despite an existing building already being there, that doesn't give you the freedom to just knock it down and rebuild it without needing building regs?


Apparently not as it would be over 30m2. I wouldn't need planning permission though.


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## DBT85

mikej460 said:


> Apparently not as it would be over 30m2. I wouldn't need planning permission though.


Ahh OK. 

Just make it as 2 smaller units cunningly seperated by the stud distance so that you can joint them later


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## mikej460




----------



## Chippysu

DBT85 said:


> Well after being busy sorting out that loft bed for a friend (and getting paid for the honour) it's been busy enough at home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had a digger on site for some work on the pond so father in law sent him my way to dig a chuffing enormous trench for the runoff from the roof. This feeds into existing drainage. It'll be nice to actually have it go somewhere. There were times in the last 8 weeks where its literally just sat there like a moat. Once this is done I can fill said moat properly. And finally clear up my building site in the field!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've also been in contact with Dan at www.djnuk.co.uk about a fine filter for the extractor. Based on the spec sheets provided (unlike most woodworking shops it seems) I'm going to pick up a 600mm cylinder filter from them and it should just about drop right on to the housing I have. Based on the spec sheet this is all I need for this extractor even if it were running at full chat with no restrictions on a larger impeller, none of which are going to be the case. And its Class M as well.
> 
> I'm amidst transforming Indoor Workshop into Childs Bedroom and with that and other painting on the immediate horizon, I've used some of my bed making money to get a Graco Ultra cordless sprayer which will greatly increase my skill in... masking. Hopefully.
> 
> Also treated (trut?) myself to the 25 bit set of Fisch HSS lip and spur bits.
> 
> Pics of trenches and pipes and filters when they are available.


I've been looking at the cordless Graco, please give us an insight when you've had it going! Ta


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## DBT85

Got this mostly drawn up last night for the same people that wanted the bed. They want this in birch ply and unpainted. I've used 18 and 24 for this drawing (24 for book shelves and the worktop). Might need to enlarge the gap at either end for a filler as only left 20mm on this. Wanted to practise on something similar for my own place but they want it more urgently . Will be interesting to see what the difference will be in just delivery of sheets and delivery of cutlist. It's about 3m wide and 2.4 tall.








Chippysu said:


> I've been looking at the cordless Graco, please give us an insight when you've had it going! Ta


I shall. 

I know @petermillard liked his apart from the pump now going twice. I think its only got a MTBF of like 200l anyway. Lots seem to buy them to paint the whole house and its not really what its for. Plenty of others on youtube have been using them, either decorators for small jobs or crafty types in place of buying a larger sprayer. The London Craftsman uses a larger Graco for all his stuff but also uses one of these for small jobs.

Hell since its only the pump that's gone on Peters maybe you can buy it off him used and just replace the pump yourself! He has no need of it anymore. I'll have his holey rail and router while he's at it


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## petermillard

DBT85 said:


> Got this mostly drawn up last night for the same people that wanted the bed. They want this in birch ply and unpainted. I've used 18 and 24 for this drawing (24 for book shelves and the worktop). Might need to enlarge the gap at either end for a filler as only left 20mm on this. Wanted to practise on something similar for my own place but they want it more urgently . Will be interesting to see what the difference will be in just delivery of sheets and delivery of cutlist. It's about 3m wide and 2.4 tall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I shall.
> 
> I know @petermillard liked his apart from the pump now going twice. I think its only got a MTBF of like 200l anyway. Lots seem to buy them to paint the whole house and its not really what its for. Plenty of others on youtube have been using them, either decorators for small jobs or crafty types in place of buying a larger sprayer. The London Craftsman uses a larger Graco for all his stuff but also uses one of these for small jobs.
> 
> Hell since its only the pump that's gone on Peters maybe you can buy it off him used and just replace the pump yourself! He has no need of it anymore. I'll have his holey rail and router while he's at it


Loved mine, until it let me down too many times ie more than once. Great sprayer while it was working though.


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## Chippysu

DBT85 said:


> Got this mostly drawn up last night for the same people that wanted the bed. They want this in birch ply and unpainted. I've used 18 and 24 for this drawing (24 for book shelves and the worktop). Might need to enlarge the gap at either end for a filler as only left 20mm on this. Wanted to practise on something similar for my own place but they want it more urgently . Will be interesting to see what the difference will be in just delivery of sheets and delivery of cutlist. It's about 3m wide and 2.4 tall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I shall.
> 
> I know @petermillard liked his apart from the pump now going twice. I think its only got a MTBF of like 200l anyway. Lots seem to buy them to paint the whole house and its not really what its for. Plenty of others on youtube have been using them, either decorators for small jobs or crafty types in place of buying a larger sprayer. The London Craftsman uses a larger Graco for all his stuff but also uses one of these for small jobs.
> 
> Hell since its only the pump that's gone on Peters maybe you can buy it off him used and just replace the pump yourself! He has no need of it anymore. I'll have his holey rail and router while he's at it


Thanks, I use a compressor in my shop but some paints call for airless, I don't always finish but some people want me to paint even if it's just skirting install so thought a portable might be useful. On your office design I did a similar set up for someone a while back. (I've yet to learn how to use cad, I'm envious!) what edging will you be using? I steam bent 5mm oak around the curved desk.


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## DBT85

Chippysu said:


> Thanks, I use a compressor in my shop but some paints call for airless, I don't always finish but some people want me to paint even if it's just skirting install so thought a portable might be useful. On your office design I did a similar set up for someone a while back. (I've yet to learn how to use cad, I'm envious!) what edging will you be using? I steam bent 5mm oak around the curved desk.


They literally just want it left as edge exposed birch ply. Makes life easier for me at least! I'd have no idea what to do otherwise as I've only recently used my first bit of edge banding let alone trying to steam bend something.

As far as using Sketchup or Fusion, I think a lot of pros don't bother, Peter above didn't and that London Craftsman also doesn't and he's banging out 50-60 units a year. There's a time element but also maybe also if you make it look right in the drawing and then something happens on the job that means it looks different, people might get picky. If you just do a simple 2D drawing with dimensions then its maybe less easy to picture how it should look, so its more difficult to complain that it doesn't exactly match! Not only that, if you know how to build it then you don't need to draw it up. I've built a workshop and a utility cupboard and a bed, I don't know how to build a giant built in bookcase so this helps me see it a bit better and try to see problems I might encounter.

My brother couldn't get on with Sketchup at all. He just wanted to draw some basic cabinets for his office as this isn't what he does. Once he tried fusion he was flying through. I do it partly for the fun of using the program. I get bored out of my backside at work so this is a way of stretching my grey matter a bit.

Cabinetry and woodwork isn't earning me any real money. The bed was the first thing I got paid for. While it would be nice to do a couple of thousand a month in built ins, for the short term its going to be more handyman type stuff while I learn and do more. I also get a little nepotism work for our holiday cottage business as I now deal with all of the maintainance jobs there and get paid for it. I've been doing TV for 18 years now and I'd very much like to not make it to 20!


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## Chippysu

DBT85 said:


> They literally just want it left as edge exposed birch ply. Makes life easier for me at least! I'd have no idea what to do otherwise as I've only recently used my first bit of edge banding let alone trying to steam bend something.
> 
> As far as using Sketchup or Fusion, I think a lot of pros don't bother, Peter above didn't and that London Craftsman also doesn't and he's banging out 50-60 units a year. There's a time element but also maybe also if you make it look right in the drawing and then something happens on the job that means it looks different, people might get picky. If you just do a simple 2D drawing with dimensions then its maybe less easy to picture how it should look, so its more difficult to complain that it doesn't exactly match! Not only that, if you know how to build it then you don't need to draw it up. I've built a workshop and a utility cupboard and a bed, I don't know how to build a giant built in bookcase so this helps me see it a bit better and try to see problems I might encounter.
> 
> My brother couldn't get on with Sketchup at all. He just wanted to draw some basic cabinets for his office as this isn't what he does. Once he tried fusion he was flying through. I do it partly for the fun of using the program. I get bored out of my backside at work so this is a way of stretching my grey matter a bit.
> 
> Cabinetry and woodwork isn't earning me any real money. The bed was the first thing I got paid for. While it would be nice to do a couple of thousand a month in built ins, for the short term its going to be more handyman type stuff while I learn and do more. I also get a little nepotism work for our holiday cottage business as I now deal with all of the maintainance jobs there and get paid for it. I've been doing TV for 18 years now and I'd very much like to not make it to 20!


You make some valid points there re drawings, I just get asked as some can't picture it in their head so I normally do hand drawings for them. If you haven't already got one may I make a helpful suggestion, when you have to use edgebanding, I'm guessing you've used iron on, buy a edging cutter, amazon £5-£9 depending on make, single or twin cutter, when I first discovered one after years of careful Stanley knife tidying, couldn't believe the time and heartache it saved me! No more lining one edge up for it to shrink back when cool, and after ironing & hand trimming endless metres one does get brain ache!  Then just use a block & 120 grit with a forward but 45° downward motion and life is rosy again! Can I be nosey & ask what your TV job is? My friend owned Merlin tv. And whereas your holiday cottage as we're looking for a break away once we're all out on parole!


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## Chippysu

Chippysu said:


> You make some valid points there re drawings, I just get asked as some can't picture it in their head so I normally do hand drawings for them. If you haven't already got one may I make a helpful suggestion, when you have to use edgebanding, I'm guessing you've used iron on, buy a edging cutter, amazon £5-£9 depending on make, single or twin cutter, when I first discovered one after years of careful Stanley knife tidying, couldn't believe the time and heartache it saved me! No more lining one edge up for it to shrink back when cool, and after ironing & hand trimming endless metres one does get brain ache!  Then just use a block & 120 grit with a forward but 45° downward motion and life is rosy again! Can I be nosey & ask what your TV job is? My friend owned Merlin tv. And where's your holiday cottage as we're looking for a break away once we're all out on parole!


If you're interested to save you searching : wolfcraft 4300000 Edge Trimmer single *or* Stanley STHT0-16139 Laminate Trimmer, Black/Yellow


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## DBT85

@Chippysu ahh thanks for that. Did you say you were trying to line one side of the edge banding up? The very little I've done (maybe 12m) I just made sure it overlapped on all 4 sides so shrinkage wasn't a problem. I did then try a multitude of ways of trimming it back and in the end settled on a chisel to remove the bulk and a bit of 120 at 45 degrees to finish it off.

My TV job is working mostly for the Premier League. I'dy ourr on holiday in some foreign place and watching it it's probably left my little room near Heathrow. Have worked on live TV for 18 years now!

As for the cottages I'll drop you a pm.


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## Chippysu

DBT85 said:


> @Chippysu ahh thanks for that. Did you say you were trying to line one side of the edge banding up? The very little I've done (maybe 12m) I just made sure it overlapped on all 4 sides so shrinkage wasn't a problem. I did then try a multitude of ways of trimming it back and in the end settled on a chisel to remove the bulk and a bit of 120 at 45 degrees to finish it off.
> 
> My TV job is working mostly for the Premier League. I'dy ourr on holiday in some foreign place and watching it it's probably left my little room near Heathrow. Have worked on live TV for 18 years now!
> 
> As for the cottages I'll drop you a pm.


We live in Ashford near Heathrow, kettle's always on! (hubby was BA engineering for 46 years, retired 2019.) We support local Brentford & Chelsea for big club. oh forgot to say, I have both types of trimmer to cover all bases and don't waste money on replacement blades, the blades are robust enough to be sharpened.


----------



## DBT85

Chippysu said:


> We live in Ashford near Heathrow, kettle's always on! (hubby was BA engineering for 46 years, retired 2019.) We support local Brentford & Chelsea for big club. oh forgot to say, I have both types of trimmer to cover all bases and don't waste money on replacement blades, the blades are robust enough to be sharpened.


Well when you hear the commentary talk about VAR being at Stockley Park, I'm the floor below them!

I'll investigate more on doing edge banding. Once I'd got my method sorted for that utility cabinet it was fine.It looked a bit ropey on the panels I'd done like trying to work it out though!


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## DBT85

Been beavering away on jobs around the house adn farm for the last few weeks, but I can finally say that drainage for the guttering is in place which is nice.

I also took delivery of my new filter for the extractor. I'll get some words written up for it once I'm sorted as I think I can get away with significantly shrinking the footprint of the extractor now without any loss on flow. For the inquisitive the filter was from djnuk.co.uk. Dan was very helpful when trying to work out what kind of filter I needed and unlike normal woodworking filters sold everywhere else, these actually have associated spec sheets and technical diagrams and can be made to any length you want and in about 10 different diameters for different machines. In my case it was a CS495 with a 600mm filter material. The top cap is a thick but flexible rubber type material which eased with gentle persuasion over the extractor.

Materials are supplied to them by WWW.NORDIC-AIR-FILTRATION.COM where you can also find the spec sheets for the various filter media. In this cases their 909 flavour.






I am still yet to progress with this bookcase unit my friends want me to build. An element of cocking up a 3m wide 2.5m tall birch ply monstrosity looms.


----------

