# Professional forum?



## cornishjoinery (2 Nov 2015)

Hi guys, i was wondering if there is a forum anywhere for professional carpenters, joiners, cabinet makers etc, as much as i love to read threads from mr smith asking how to put a hinge on a door or mr Jones asking where he can buy 10 lengths of 40mm oak for under a tenner, i am thinking it would be cool to have a separate forum on here for professionals. I am not saying in the slightest that DIYS or weekend warriors don't know what they are doing, far from it, some are very very skilled but i would like to interact with the day to day issues of paid work. Again as much as i love to see pictures of mr Pauls building his first rabbit hutch or mr winters making a jewellery box for his late mothers rings, i like to look at work that is more relative to my work. 
Any suggestions?
Cheers.


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## blackrodd (3 Nov 2015)

No, I don't know any, but would be pleased if you did, especially After reading you're response to Slow Steve's post, and 
this post above, Rude, arrogant and very unhelpful. 
Rodders


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## doctor Bob (3 Nov 2015)

blackrodd":1mgzsjr6 said:


> No, I don't know any, but would be pleased if you did, especially After reading you're response to Slow Steve's post, and
> this post above, Rude, arrogant and very unhelpful.
> Rodders



I haven't read the other post but I can't see how the opening post is so horrific.............. has some of it been deleted?


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## wallace (3 Nov 2015)

woodworkuk may be up your street but its not a patch on this place


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

I don't how wanting to start a proffessional forum is arrogant? Sorry if I offended anyone.


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## Myfordman (3 Nov 2015)

+1 for workshop UK. You will find a good proportion of members there are earning a crust from woodworking and they do have threads discussing pricing, quoting and subcontracting issues. Traffic volume is much lower than here and a far more relaxed approach to moderation than here. 
Better or worse overall is up to you to decide but it is a different sort of place.


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":1nlh2mr9 said:


> I don't how wanting to start a proffessional forum is arrogant? Sorry if I offended anyone.



It's how you said it. If i may break your post down a bit:

*OK* - "Hi guys, i was wondering if there is a forum anywhere for professional carpenters, joiners, cabinet makers etc"

*Patronising* - "as much as i love to read threads from mr smith asking how to put a hinge on a door or mr Jones asking where he can buy 10 lengths of 40mm oak for under a tenner"

*OK* - "i am thinking it would be cool to have a separate forum on here for professionals"

*Patronising* - "I am not saying in the slightest that DIYS or weekend warriors don't know what they are doing, far from it, some are very very skilled but "

*OK* - "i would like to interact with the day to day issues of paid work"

*Patronising* - "Again as much as i love to see pictures of mr Pauls building his first rabbit hutch or mr winters making a jewellery box for his late mothers rings"

*OKish* - "i like to look at work that is more relative to my work. "

You use more words to put down non-trade members than you do to say what you want. Does that help?


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## timber (3 Nov 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":1w877l2k said:


> cornishjoinery":1w877l2k said:
> 
> 
> > I don't how wanting to start a proffessional forum is arrogant? Sorry if I offended anyone.
> ...


I myself can see nothing wrong with the original question, when writing instead of being face to face it may be rather difficult to explain clearly------ ( my penny's worth )


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Nov 2015)

I've certainly read much worse. 

I think it may be in conjunction with the other post referred to that it's irked some.


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## Mr T (3 Nov 2015)

Not really a forum like ukwporkshop but http://www.designermakers.org.uk is a network of professional furniture makers. They have an email forum which discusses the sort of topics you mention. There are a lot of top makers there and they are very helpful. There is a minor vetting process to join.

Chris


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## AJB Temple (3 Nov 2015)

Hello Cornish

It might help if you included your name. I think that the post you made in another thread where a member asked for advice about making tenons, assumed that he was a professional and so was somewhat terse. I think if you had perhaps read his earlier recent thread asking for advice on making large doors for his workshop, you would realise he is not professional and perhaps would have responded differently. 

So you got off on slightly the wrong foot. Put it behind you and move on. Maybe posting at nigh on midnight affects judgement and tone sometimes! 

I have not been on this forum long either. I am reasonably experienced at woodwork though, having done some timber framed buildings, made a few kitchens...and a lot of guitars. I also run a couple of businesses, one of which is quite large, so (like plenty of other "amateurs" here) I am not clueless about the trade. There are lots of current or retired professionals and very skilled amateurs on this forum. I know this because I have met a few already. Very nice people by and large. 

Give the place a chance. If you are seeking professional input, then just say so in your posts. There is quite a bit of PM activity behind the scenes. It is also a good opportunity for you to encourage curious amateurs like me. 

Kind regards

Adrian


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## RobinBHM (3 Nov 2015)

There aren't really any professional forums for joinery / cabinetmaking in the UK. There are in the US, woodweb for example

This forum is by a mile, the largest for woodworking in this country and includes the whole range of people from those enjoying woodwork as an absorbing hobby to people making a living hacking away at wood (I'm in the latter category). I run a joinery business and I have learnt a huge amount from this forum and have taken on board many ideas from members who do woodworking as a hobby as well as professionals. 

I realise that forums members that do woodworking as a career have a very different view from those that do it as a hobby, but you just have to pick the threads that are of interest.

There is a great community spirit on this forum and for those that do woodworking as a hobby it allows the opportunity to have a hobby but not do it in a totally insular fashion but shared with like minded folk.


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## Woody2Shoes (3 Nov 2015)

We've got a fairly clear picture of what you don't want to read about/discuss. Can you give us a bit more clarity on what (purely professional) topics you would like to read about/discuss?

Cheers, W2S (amateur at woodworking but professional at other things)


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## Wildman (3 Nov 2015)

I think the op is rather elitist and the poster most certainly would be happier elsewhere. Instead of trying to demean posters here.


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## Jacob (3 Nov 2015)

You get pros on Screwfix and similar forums. Generally a lot of cack-handed bodgers. 
What makes you think there aren't any competent pros on here?


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## BearTricks (3 Nov 2015)

Maybe the moderators could add another subforum for questions relating to the business side of woodworking; it does come up quite often even if the general consensus seems to be keep your day job and do it as a hobby these days. 

I understand protests about the original post. Strolling in to a room full of woodworkers and asking where you can find a group of people who actually know what they're doing seems unnecessary and a bit demeaning, especially considering Google is just a click away and many members on here are clearly seasoned professionals. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## doctor Bob (3 Nov 2015)

Some of you guys need to chill out a bit, I'd hate to see your reactions if something serious was to happen.


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## Graham Orm (3 Nov 2015)

Jacob":2e47f52m said:


> You get pros on Screwfix and similar forums. Generally a lot of cack-handed bodgers.
> What makes you think there aren't any competent pros on here?



+1

If you have a question for the 'pro's' ask it and mention in the title that 'only pro's need reply' then the 'weekend warriors' et al won't trouble you.


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## mseries (3 Nov 2015)

DIYNOT has a forum entitled 'Trade Talk' which looks like it's intended for what the OP wants.


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## doctor Bob (3 Nov 2015)

Graham Orm":3lwbn17o said:


> Jacob":3lwbn17o said:
> 
> 
> > You get pros on Screwfix and similar forums. Generally a lot of cack-handed bodgers.
> ...



They will though, human nature, especially if the guy makes nice stuff and thinks he knows better. I think people seem to find "hobby" or "hobbiest" insulting.


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## PeterBassett (3 Nov 2015)

Sporky McGuffin post is bang on the money. If you don't want to hear about my ornate pine bird feeder I'm making out of pallets and nails then I suggest you find yourself another forum rather than asking us where you should go. I know of one answer that comes to mind.


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## Racers (3 Nov 2015)

Amateurs can learn from professionals and professionals can learn from amateurs, why would you want to shut out a group of people just because they don't earn their living from woodwork, they might have the answer you require.

I do find the original post a touch demeaning. 

Pete


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## Adam9453 (3 Nov 2015)

I guess the main problem is people like the OP come across as arrogant because they assume a part time woodworker couldn't possibly offer advice for a professional related question, obviously this is quite foolish. 
For instance I'm a part time woodworker but I am a professional designer / manager of a manufacturing business so I have a wealth of experience in areas which possibly a professional woodworker might not. 
For example, if you run a professional but very small woodworking shop, you probably have limited people in the business and therefore less volume of experience because any way you look at it, more people equals more experience. Also they may not be familiar with efficient production methodology for batch production etc. on a larger scale and the growth of your business by not having the expertise required to take on larger projects and the additional organisation, planning etc that is involved.
I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know everything and sometimes its the apprentice that comes up with the idea that solves the problem. A different perspective can be worth a heap of time and money.


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## Wizard9999 (3 Nov 2015)

doctor Bob":casbf3xi said:


> Some of you guys need to chill out a bit, I'd hate to see your reactions if something serious was to happen.



I'm rather surprised by this post Doctor Bob, I would have thought your stance would be it was unreasonable to post criticism of messers Smith, Jones, Paul and Winter without having given them a week to respond to the issues by email before commenting. :lol:


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## Wizard9999 (3 Nov 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":3g693l40 said:


> cornishjoinery":3g693l40 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't how wanting to start a proffessional forum is arrogant? Sorry if I offended anyone.
> ...



Spot on Sporky. What I don't understand is why the original post could not of just been...

"Hi guys, i was wondering if there is a forum anywhere for professional carpenters, joiners, cabinet. i am thinking it would be cool to have a separate forum on here for professionals as i would like to interact with the day to day issues of paid work. I like to look at work that is more relative to my work."

I just can't see why it was necessary to go to the time and trouble to add the other text, other than to try to make a point.

I am new to woodworking, I take more from this forum than I can give, that is true. But I have found some really helpful people here, both amateur and professional willing to help me. I think the mix of different people makes the place all the more interesting and would be most disappointed if all the professionals left for another site.

But if there is demand for another board on professional commercial matters then why not.

Terry.


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Nov 2015)

I'd have absolutely no problem with there being a trade forum - some of the business side might well be best discussed separately, and I appreciate that there are often different approaches to the same job based on whether you're trying to make a living at it or not. I also didn't mean that "dissection" as an attack at all - it was genuinely intended to help Mr Cornish.

As someone who has more than once gotten the wording of a post wrong I try to look at such things as clumsiness rather than malice. I don't always succeed!


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## Wizard9999 (3 Nov 2015)

Sporky, sorry if you felt I put emphasis on your post in the wrong way. Maybe it was just intended to be humorous and just didn't hit the target, hell I know I have done that a lot in my life!

Terry.


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## Random Orbital Bob (3 Nov 2015)

not much news today then I'm guessing!


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Nov 2015)

Wizard9999":rns36whj said:


> Sporky, sorry if you felt I put emphasis on your post in the wrong way.



Not at all!

Let's never fight again etc.


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## Zeddedhed (3 Nov 2015)

How about a professional only sharpening forum?
That should be fun.


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## Adam9453 (3 Nov 2015)

Zeddedhed":3l1flgaf said:


> How about a professional only sharpening forum?
> That should be fun.


It would be like BBC news 24 channel, constant stories of how to sharpen 'the right way'!!! Let the arguments, meet the sharpeners...


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## AJB Temple (3 Nov 2015)

Ha ha! You should try the kitchen knife forums. There are endless threads and videos on sharpening, all kinds of stones including naturals and dissection of synthetics by brand, how to thin behind the edge, about a zillion different stropping methods and materials.


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Nov 2015)

They could do a bake-off style series - Britain's Sharpest Tools.

Each week they have to perform a range of sharpening tasks with a range of sharpening technologies.

This week's technical challenge is to resharpen a set of cobalt drills using a triangular profile Silverline needle file. In twenty minutes.


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## Adam9453 (3 Nov 2015)

Tonight contestants we have our very honoured guest sharpening judge, Joe 'Sharpstuff' McSharpener.
Joe will be judging your sharpening results using a microscope, tuning fork and the force!!


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## Adam9453 (3 Nov 2015)

I think the sequel would be more interesting to watch though, 
britains bluntest tools, I could name a few people :twisted:


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## Nelsun (3 Nov 2015)

Thank you all. You have made my f**** of a day a whole lot better. Perhaps there could be one on plane storage as a DVD extra?


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## Adam9453 (3 Nov 2015)

followed by the complete box set of "whats better, hand tools or power tools?" a bbc documentary


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## Halo Jones (3 Nov 2015)

Then Bandsaw Vs Tablesaw


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Nov 2015)

Coming soon: The Dado Stack Wars


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

Bloody hell didn't mean to course offense. Wow. When I gave examples it was only in a joky kind of way, I don't know anyway by the name of Smith or Jones. Funny really as they are popular British names hence why I used them. I never said hobbyists lack skill, far from it! It's just Adifferent kind of world. If the moderaters could set up a trade section that would be awesome.
Many thanks Jamie


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## AJB Temple (3 Nov 2015)

Welcome Jamie.


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## clk230 (3 Nov 2015)

How would a ' Trade ' section differ ? Would only trade be able to ask/answer questions how would you become a verified trade member?

Maybe if you believe there's a need for a trade type forum you could set one up.


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## Eric The Viking (3 Nov 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":t4ojd1jr said:


> Coming soon: The Dado Stack Wars



"The question is, pinkie, do you feel lucky? 
Well, do ya?"

Oops, sorry, wrong series.

I was probably thinking of "Nightmare on Elm Board".


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## bugbear (3 Nov 2015)

AJB Temple":3tcun1lo said:


> Ha ha! You should try the kitchen knife forums. There are endless threads and videos on sharpening, all kinds of stones including naturals and dissection of synthetics by brand, how to thin behind the edge, about a zillion different stropping methods and materials.



I'm never sure who's _more_ extreme - the kitchen knife crew or the straight razor mob.

The razor boys sometimes tend to the mystical.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Nov 2015)

AJB Temple":3d4f00l7 said:


> Ha ha! You should try the kitchen knife forums. There are endless threads and videos on sharpening, all kinds of stones including naturals and dissection of synthetics by brand, how to thin behind the edge, about a zillion different stropping methods and materials.


And it's quite likely few of them can actually cook.


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

CLK230 being a tradesman is completely different than being a hobbyist, the techniques are the same, the skill levels are the same, even the tools are the same, but i am more interested in pay scales, customers/clients, setting up trade workshops, time-scales etc etc. It wouldn't be an 'entry' thing at all, i look at the woodturning section but i am not a woodworker. I don't know why people have such hung ups? i would love to set something like that on here bet other would to.


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## clk230 (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":225cryca said:


> CLK230 being a tradesman is completely different than being a hobbyist, the techniques are the same, the skill levels are the same, even the tools are the same, but i am more interested in pay scales, customers/clients, setting up trade workshops, time-scales etc etc. It wouldn't be an 'entry' thing at all, i look at the woodturning section but i am not a woodworker. I don't know why people have such hung ups? i would love to set something like that on here bet other would to.



You miss my point , how would you get ' trade ' only answer / questions ? would any one be able to ask / answer . How would a trade only section differ from the current general section ?


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

I am sorry if i missed your point, why would you answer in a 'trade' section if you weren't in the trade, i don't answer in the metal works section because i am not a metal worker. If there were discussions on early starts and horrible clients why would a hobbyist answer or, pricing up jobs etc. I am not asking for Jesus to come back and walk the earth! I just thought, which may have been a stupid idea, but a section on the forums section for trade talk! wow.


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## clk230 (3 Nov 2015)

Comes back to another point I made , how would you know who is trade or not ? Why would a non trade members opinion not be relevant to you that is surely a very narrow view .


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## dickm (3 Nov 2015)

Seems like two separate topics getting a bit mixed up by the OP. There are questions about woodworking techniques per se, which can indeed be used/answered equally well by professionals, gifted amateurs and even bodgers like myself who happen across the odd good idea. Then there are questions about business, which can apply to all sorts of businesses, not just wood related ones. Pay scales, investment decisions, human resources etc.. These questions are likely to be less of interest to a substantial proportion of posters on this forum, and may be better aimed at more general SME forums if they exist.
Then everyone can be happy...............


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

wow someone's got a hang up about not being in the trade! and AGAIN why would you comment on going to quote at a clients house or which van to use for trade work!? and if you did comment i dont think anyone would come and tell you off! If you dont like different sections then why is there different sections to the forums then ie, woodturning, finishing, metal work etc shouldn't that all be in one forum?


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## Zeddedhed (3 Nov 2015)

I like the idea of a Trade forum.

I can't see why it should upset anyone. We separate out the forums for woodturning, scrolling etc. Why not a separate one for trade pro's?


Is it perhaps a touchy subject because of the word 'Professional'? 

If hobbyists find that threatening then they need to get out more. Likewise if the professionals think that they have a monopoly on talent or ability then they need to wake up.

We all know the word refers to nothing other than the fact that for some of us it's our profession - the way we earn our living.


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## mind_the_goat (3 Nov 2015)

Well, I'm certainly not trade, and not at all offended by the first post, well maybe I was for 10mS but seems clear the post was made in good humour. 
Also I don't think there was any question of not wanting to associate with the hobbyists or DIYers, just a question of quickly finding trade related discussions. topics could include business admin, marketing, building regs, employment law, design, products and maybe even a few questions about joinery. Seems like a good idea for a separate area to me, and I'd probably scan it for items of interest in the same way I do with all the other sections.


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## Racers (3 Nov 2015)

This is a friendly forum where the people in the trade and more experienced amateurs help beginners with their problems, now you want to come in and create some kind of VIP room where us amateurs can just look in at the big boys with there shiny machines, and wish they would only just talk to us or throw some crumbs in our direction, NO THANKS!

Its to much of a nice place to let that happen.

Pete


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## clk230 (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":1dwdpprc said:


> wow someone's got a hang up about not being in the trade! and AGAIN why would you comment on going to quote at a clients house or which van to use for trade work!? and if you did comment i dont think anyone would come and tell you off! If you dont like different sections then why is there different sections to the forums then ie, woodturning, finishing, metal work etc shouldn't that all be in one forum?



how do you know who's in the trade ? A member who has had lots of different trades in their home may offer more relevant info to a question than another trades man , I may sell or have used a certain van so my input into which van to use maybe more relevant than a trade members comment.

Nothing against trade discussions I just don't see why or how a trade only section would work .
If the OP really feels theres a place for a trade forum then maybe he should start his own trade forum from scratch.


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

wow Pete, who the hell said anything about VIP Room! just a separate section for trade guys to discuss trade topics, everyone will still contribute in the main forum, how do you think woodturners feel about being put in their own section, i bet they are all crying at home! People have some real hung ups about professional woodworkers! sorry that i went to college and made a career, should have stayed at home and watched Jeremy Kyle.

well who do you know is a woodturner or metal worker, how do i know that you know anything about woodworking and any building regulations, saw set, window construction etc that you comment on our correct! giving people dud info can cause serious injuries, shall we all provide the relevant qualifications before we sign up? Anyone can comment on any part of the forum it would just be cool to have a small section for trade discussions, i literally cant see what is up with that?


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## Zeddedhed (3 Nov 2015)

clk230":1ji0nwzj said:


> I just don't see why or how a trade only section would work .



It would work in the same way all the other forums work (that's the 'how') People start threads and others join in if they are interested or want to contribute to the discussion. (Thats the 'why')

If no-one cares then it'll be a dry and barren place, bereft of banter and rows over why Toolstation is better than Screwfix etc etc. But us Trade blokes will still check in now and again with our knackered site chisels and rusty block planes, supping over sweetened tea from crusty edged mugs.

I'm getting all emotional now.


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## clk230 (3 Nov 2015)

Ok lets look at this a different way , what questions would you like to be discussed that can't be discussed in the current rooms ?

Posted same time as Zed (p.s thanks for the wood  )


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## griggs (3 Nov 2015)

I understand where cornishjoinery is coming from, if you are a self employed tradesman, then it can be a bit of a lonely game sometimes not having "colleagues" to directly bounce ideas off, run ideas by, check you haven't messed a quote up, check you are doing it the most cost efficient way etc etc.

On the flip side of the coin though, even in trade only forums you still get comments in threads where the poster has misunderstood the point, doesn't get what you mean, is adamant they know best or is just a troll so you have to be selective in your reading of replies, so you could just ask your questions on the existing forums and take the good and the bad, generally speaking from what I have read here, most people don't comment if they have nothing to offer to the discussion but there are a lot of people here with a vast knowledge and experience who could have just what you are looking for.


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## thick_mike (3 Nov 2015)

I think it's a good idea. I haven't got the slightest interest in dominos (?) and workshop rental.


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## Zeddedhed (3 Nov 2015)

clk230":flm9nyxz said:


> Posted same time as Zed (p.s thanks for the wood  )



You're welcome. Have you turned it into anything yet or is it still just wood?


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## doctor Bob (3 Nov 2015)

clk230":agqury38 said:


> Ok lets look at this a different way , what questions would you like to be discussed that can't be discussed in the current rooms ?
> 
> Posted same time as Zed (p.s thanks for the wood  )



Well it's very difficult for professional woodworkers to talk about the young groupies which hang around the workshop doors, I get sick and tired of constantly having little skimpy thongs thrown through the window................... then there are the secret government subsidies we receive, honestly I need someone to talk to about what to spend it all on, I can only drive so many Ferrari's, and then there is the ............ no I can't mention it, you would think I was making it up.


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## Woodmonkey (3 Nov 2015)

Fwiw I didn't think the op was particularly insulting, I think it was meant in a light hearted way. But don't really see the need for separate section, you couldn't stop non professionals posting in there (nor would you want to) so would be fairly meaningless anyhow.


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

It was never intended to be insulting to anyone, it was always in good humour. The reason i ask for trade section is the topics would all be related. I like the projects page but again its filled with stuff that doesn't interest me, i like to see fitted kitchens, built in wardrobes etc.


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## bugbear (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":1hoqy9b2 said:


> It was never intended to be insulting to anyone, it was always in good humour. The reason i ask for trade section is the topics would all be related. I like the projects page but again its filled with stuff that doesn't interest me, i like to see fitted kitchens, built in wardrobes etc.



Surely sub dividing the forum wouldn't make anything appear? If existing members want to post fitted kitchens and wardrobes they can - and have.

BugBear


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## n0legs (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":2kh4btr5 said:


> i like to see fitted kitchens, built in wardrobes etc.



I like to see my neighbour cleaning the loft window whilst nude, she doesn't know I can see her.


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## Zeddedhed (3 Nov 2015)

n0legs":2keaswlm said:


> cornishjoinery":2keaswlm said:
> 
> 
> > i like to see fitted kitchens, built in wardrobes etc.
> ...



It's exactly that sort of comment that makes this Forum so......







....bloody amusing!! =D> =D>


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## doctor Bob (3 Nov 2015)

n0legs":d3sd1m9v said:


> cornishjoinery":d3sd1m9v said:
> 
> 
> > i like to see fitted kitchens, built in wardrobes etc.
> ...



Everyone has a hobby, but curious as to why you take your clothes off and watch your neighbour? :shock: :lol:


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## Lons (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":va2gi2f3 said:


> well who do you know is a woodturner or metal worker, how do i know that you know anything about woodworking and any building regulations, saw set, window construction etc that you comment on our correct! giving people dud info can cause serious injuries, shall we all provide the relevant qualifications before we sign up? Anyone can comment on any part of the forum it would just be cool to have a small section for trade discussions, i literally cant see what is up with that?



If it's SO important to know who's who then there's no point in wasting time on a forum where anyone can post anything without "proving" they know what they are talking about. Having said that, it doesn't take long to discover whether they're talking sense or cr*p.

The whole thing is a storm in a teacup. If you're not interested in a particular subject then don't read it. If you don't like the posts of specific members then ignore them. If you don't want to read a shed build 'cos you have business premises then look the other way. There are many general posts regarding rates, building control, vehicles, machinery etc. and thousands on tools and techniques which are of interest to everyone. I actually sold one of my vans to a member on here.

I'm a recently retired "tradesman" who earned my living through my building company but along with the usual construction, kitchens, doors and wardrobes etc I'm a lifelong and experienced woodworker, I've learned a lot on here and also hopefully helped a few and I've disagreed with the views of many - THAT'S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ALL ABOUT, IS IT NOT?

I wasn't offended by your post btw though did think you might have phrased it better. :wink: 

cheers
Bob


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## Lons (3 Nov 2015)

doctor Bob":3a5ni4yh said:


> n0legs":3a5ni4yh said:
> 
> 
> > cornishjoinery":3a5ni4yh said:
> ...



+1
You beat me to it but it's a mental picture I'm trying desperately to erase from my mind :lol:


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## n0legs (3 Nov 2015)

doctor Bob":y8i8i7gc said:


> n0legs":y8i8i7gc said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone has a hobby, but curious as to why you take your clothes off and watch your neighbour? :shock: :lol:



I wait for the look on her face if she notices me.


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## lurker (3 Nov 2015)

I have no problem about people earning a living working with wood describing themselves as tradesmen , but they are not professionals.
A professional is someone who is a member of a professional body and could not practice if they were not.

Some tradesmen are so bad they are only there as the alternative is being out of work.
Earning a living at it does not mean you are in any way skilled.

Having said that there are a number of highly skilled folks here who let their abilities talk for them, regardless of where they earn a wage.


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## Eric The Viking (3 Nov 2015)

Zeddedhed":2whh2y2r said:


> rows over why Toolstation is better than Screwfix etc etc



That's easy: the queue is usually shorter.

Even so, the tradesmen that frequent our nearest Toolstation are amongst the most unprofessional people I've ever encountered. They usually turn up having no idea what they want, spend ages going through the catalogue and make up a handwritten order, then get half of it changed when it arrives or ask the lass behind the counter if it's the right thing for whatever they're attacking today, or stand there, still thumbing through, while we all wait for lightning to strike (I wish!). And then the mobile goes off...

Meanwhile, as ours is almost a drive-through, there are two or three cross cars and vans trying to squeeze onto the forecourt because they didn't move the van up the line when earlier customers drove off and now they're blocking most of the parking.

I now go at 7AM if I can, to avoid all that. And I have an online order code ready on my phone screen when the roller shutter goes up.

You, sir, are evidently a professional, but they're definitely trade-only!

E.


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## lurker (3 Nov 2015)

Lons is right, we occasionally get a dreamer who is up stairs in his mums house sitting in his underpants writing a load of old cack.


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

cool lets forget about it then, no worries. will look to be setting up a forum site soon, so will post a link to it when set up, cheers


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## Zeddedhed (3 Nov 2015)

The OED gives this definition (amongst others)

Professional 

"Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as an amateur."

For example - Harold Shipman.

I think we can all agree that there are many professionals who are utter dung at what they do. It's still their profession though. Skill has nothing to do with it. A lot of the 'amateurs' on here are far better than I'll ever be. But I'm still a professional joiner/Carpenter/maker.


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## Lons (3 Nov 2015)

lurker":1f9e311m said:


> I have no problem about people earning a living working with wood describing themselves as tradesmen , but they are not professionals.
> A professional is someone who is a member of a professional body and could not practice if they were not.



:lol: Not strictly true as if you look in enough places there are various definitions e.g.



> Full Definition of PROFESSIONAL
> 1
> a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
> b : engaged in one of the learned professions
> ...



Many of the "professional" sportsmen will be members of union or trade bodies but not obliged to be in order to work. And there are many self employed woodworkers, builders, painters etc who are registered with the relevant bodies and others in the gas, oil and electrical trades who have no option.
There are also many, many "professional" teachers, solicitors, doctors, dentists, financial advisors etc who very definitely act in non "professional" manner.



> Some tradesmen are so bad they are only there as the alternative is being out of work. Earning a living at it does not mean you are in any way skilled.



Agreed but read my comment above as not exclusive to "tradesmen" and being qualified in a "profession" does not mean they practice what they've learned either.



> Having said that there are a number of highly skilled folks here who let their abilities talk for them, regardless of where they earn a wage.



Absolutely =D>


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## Lons (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":zh8srf6m said:


> cool lets forget about it then, no worries. will look to be setting up a forum site soon, so will post a link to it when set up, cheers



Look forward to it and will certainly have a butchers.


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## RobinBHM (3 Nov 2015)

Like most regulars on here, I always look at new posts, rarely through the board index. But the UK is missing a forum that relates to joinery and cabinetmaking for the trade. Woodweb is a great US site and Ive come across many useful threads about trade matters. Unfortunately the language, trade products etc are are so very different its hard to understand. If a forum was available in the UK that could be a really useful resource and community. In reality, I think the sector is too small in this country to support such a forum on its own, but I could certainly see a trade talk section on this forum could be very successful.


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## Zeddedhed (3 Nov 2015)

RobinBHM":2z3ww7om said:


> Like most regulars on here, I always look at new posts, rarely through the board index. But the UK is missing a forum that relates to joinery and cabinetmaking for the trade. Woodweb is a great US site and Ive come across many useful threads about trade matters. Unfortunately the language, trade products etc are are so very different its hard to understand. If a forum was available in the UK that could be a really useful resource and community. In reality, I think the sector is too small in this country to support such a forum on its own, but I could certainly see a trade talk section on this forum could be very successful.



Jedi - style comment Robin. Couldn't agree more.


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## blackrodd (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":2dul7rex said:


> It was never intended to be insulting to anyone, it was always in good humour. The reason i ask for trade section is the topics would all be related. I like the projects page but again its filled with stuff that doesn't interest me, i like to see fitted kitchens, built in wardrobes etc.




Among several of you're rude and unhelpful replies was this one, in response to a newbie asking about where to buy materials,-

"Best thing to do is go to a building site and get some offcuts. The more people that buy timber the more the price goes up for people that make their money from using it, for hobbyists you should always try to use reclaimed timber or offcuts etc".
I think you should look and think a bit more about what you are writing.
If you're just interested in kitchens and wardrobes, then this forum may not be much use to you.
Onwards and upwards, 
Regards Rodders


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## Halo Jones (3 Nov 2015)

Can someone tell me what's wrong with WoodworkUK? (Am I allowed to say that here?! 8-[)

Although not posted on as often as here there are obviously a lot of trade "professionals" who give a lot of their time and advice to "amateurs" and other "professionals" alike. I, for one, subscribe when up-keep fees are due just so I can ask advice when needed.

I try to support all the UK woodwork forums (or at least the three I know of!)

H.


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## RobinBHM (3 Nov 2015)

There is certainly nothing wrong with woodworkuk which is certainly frequented by trade professionals but it only has a tiny fraction of the audience this forum has.

For example this forum currently has 200 or so logged in compared to about 7.


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## Random Orbital Bob (3 Nov 2015)

Just come back to this thread after a quick peek this morning...wow it really was a slow news day today wasn't it!


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## Water-Mark (3 Nov 2015)

I don't know if it's changed but the screwfix forum used to be brutal with very little help given.

Most replies seemed to be along the lines of 
" if you don't know the answer you have no right being on a trade forum, you must be a career changing cowboy!"

I remember lots of "how much should i charge" threads, usually answered with " how much do you want"

It put me off trade forums for life.

Should there be a trade forum here?
I honestly can't see it making a difference either way.


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

Hi Rodders, what was the person asking for, i forget. Probably after a ton of hardwood for less than a fiver. Its true hobbyist, DIYers do drive the price of timber up, spoken to a few tradesman now saying same thing and to 2 timber yards who admit they can bump up the prices because so many weekend warriors are coming to buy timber.And before you go on at me for having something against the hobbyist, look at the large majority of posts on this thread, i would say there is a clear offensive to people that earn money from woodworking.


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## artie (3 Nov 2015)

Bit silly this whole thread, with some sensible comments.

If "one" has a question or problem why limit the scope of possible help.

I first started my own business in April of 1987. I figured out what I needed to do and jumped in with both feet. 

My brother in law, helpful sort that he is, gave me a phone number for a friend of his that had been running a similar business in a different town for many years.

I phoned him up and had a decent chat for a good while just as I was winding up with him he said what about your insurance.? I told him I was covered for 5 million property damage and unlimited public liability.

He said aye, 5 million is pretty standard on property but I pay extra for another 2 million on public liability.

I made him repeat what he had said, and then I thanked him for his help and said goodbye.

Talking to "the trade" isn't always the most productive.


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## BearTricks (3 Nov 2015)

Reading on a bit it seems as if there's an issue with people not being able to interpret intention behind a written post as much as there is people either being snarky or not wording their posts particularly well. 

Perhaps business is a better word than 'trade'. 

I paint as well as spending my time planing boards out of square and stocking the firewood pile with expensive offcuts. I sometimes go on an art forum where there is a specific section on the art 'business' for people who make a living selling artwork, for people who want to start, or for people who do it as a hobby but make a few sales on the side. It's full of activity and it keeps the more technique and equipment focused forums on topic. 

It doesn't have to be for people in the 'trade', which is a term that conjures up images of men with vans doing jobs that vary in quality for prices that vary in fairness (see, I can do it too) but for anyone who wants to ask a question about buying and selling, submitting their tax forms, employing people, getting a job in woodworking etc etc. Then the general woodworking forum could focus a bit more on turning things in to sawdust. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

Exactly bear tricks! You got it. That was point at the beginning, a section for trade, professional, paid, God knows What is politically correct anymore on here, to discuss issues Like payment, vans, tax codes, clients etc. Stuff that hobbyists would find boring or of no interest. I can't see why people would find that so hard


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## griggs (3 Nov 2015)

Cornishjoinery, Ask the trades has a trade only section but is not very active anymore.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":brpxms69 said:


> Hi Rodders, what was the person asking for, i forget. Probably after a ton of hardwood for less than a fiver. Its true hobbyist, DIYers do drive the price of timber up, spoken to a few tradesman now saying same thing and to 2 timber yards who admit they can bump up the prices because so many weekend warriors are coming to buy timber.And before you go on at me for having something against the hobbyist, look at the large majority of posts on this thread, i would say there is a clear offensive to people that earn money from woodworking.


How do you work that out, then? If I visit Travis, Bradford's, wherever as an unknown and buy a 4.8m of 4" x 2" they bill me at perhaps £4 per metre because that's what it says on the shelf/computer. If you go there as a "tradesman" or "professional" with an account (or at least, you're known to them) you'll get n% discount (often more or less dependent on to whom you speak). I know how it works - I've bought both ways for 45 years. Of course the yards bump the prices - to the public - but I fail to see how this pushes your price up.


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## n0legs (3 Nov 2015)

It was said to me years ago and I've said it before, but I'll say it again
"Give me a keen amateur over a complacent professional any day." :wink:


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Nov 2015)

When I bought my house I realised that there were problems with the electrics - the rings and radials were mixed up, so a fuse supplied one end of a ring and a radial. I had the basement lights and the immersion on the same fuse, for instance. I bought the house from a qualified electrician. :?


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

Talking more about sawmills, hardwood timber supplies, where trade prices are not given out as much. These are the places where prices are driven up by the man who wants a few lengths each weekend. Just talking from experience.


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## Tom K (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":3sn6riyv said:


> Exactly bear tricks! You got it. That was point at the beginning, a section for trade, professional, paid, God knows What is politically correct anymore on here, to discuss issues Like payment, vans, tax codes, clients etc. Stuff that hobbyists would find boring or of no interest. I can't see why people would find that so hard



You can start a thread on any of those subjects in "General Chat" post it and they will come (hammer) and if they don't those you seek are elsewhere. If your prices are being driven by amateurs you need to place bigger orders.

Regards Tom (Professional panel beater, qualified plumber, trade school scholar, Ex company secretary, Amateur Property developer, Husband, Father and No1 Grandad)


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Nov 2015)

CJ - Fair comment, but maybe I would blame the hike in price more on the greed of the owner of the yard than the "weekend warrior".


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## cornishjoinery (3 Nov 2015)

Why does everyone assume on here that if you say your a tradesman that you are a cowboy, it's like it's a naughty word on here, hush hush, if you say you get paid then you must be dung. It's almost like the hobbyist looks down on us.


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## n0legs (3 Nov 2015)

phil.p":78qfaa0v said:


> When I bought my house I realised that there were problems with the electrics - the rings and radials were mixed up, so a fuse supplied one end of a ring and a radial. I had the basement lights and the immersion on the same fuse, for instance. I bought the house from a qualified electrician. :?



Well that wouldn't have been the case if I sold you the house :wink: 

n0legs (amateur jack of all trades but master of one)


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## n0legs (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":1ozdyqjz said:


> It's almost like the hobbyist looks down on us.



Would you mind addressing the forum with a tug of the forelock first.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":244l43ft said:


> Why does everyone assume on here that if you say your a tradesman that you are a cowboy, it's like it's a naughty word on here, hush hush, if you say you get paid then you must be dung. It's almost like the hobbyist looks down on us.


Not at all. I think it's just a backlash against the belief that because someone is a "professional" or does something for a living they must be good at it. Many aren't - I spent lots of hours of my working life re doing jobs that had been done "professionally" - some were appalling at best, dangerous at worst. (my one finger typing is awful - that came out as "f dangerous" ... maybe I should have left it ...  )


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## Tom K (4 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":jat66sp9 said:


> Why does everyone assume on here that if you say your a tradesman that you are a cowboy, it's like it's a naughty word on here, hush hush, if you say you get paid then you must be dung. It's almost like the hobbyist looks down on us.



I don't think anyone has said that. The point that many are trying to get across is that there is a wealth of knowledge on the forum available from experts from all walks of life and that being a pro is not a guarantee of ability or indeed professionalism. Ask away in any of the available sections if there is enough traffic on any particular subject it may end up getting its own section "Metalworking" being the most recent.


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## Adam9453 (4 Nov 2015)

I'm afraid cornishjoinery you seem to be missing the point which has been repeated many times, whatever you want to know or ask about, just post a topic in the most relative area. People will reply if they have advice to offer.
Creating a trade only section is just unneccesary given the number of sections already available and would potentially just reduce the number of people considering helping you.
The old adage applies "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Why try changing the forum when the things you refer to are already being discussed without any problems.


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## cornishjoinery (4 Nov 2015)

I was/am not trying to fix anything, just wondered if we could consider one section for trade related issues. It may be only ever used a few times a year regarding some issues but would be useful to tradesman. Why do people think that this if this was to happen the whole forum would explode and collapse in one Huge pile of saw dust!? If it's not going to work here then will start a seperate forum. I just wanted ease of use so didn't have to troll through pages of unrelated issues
Someone on here must be able to set up a vote system?


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## Lons (4 Nov 2015)

> the whole forum would explode and collapse in one Huge pile of saw dust!?



Have I missed something?

I don't remember any insinuations or suggestions that might happen and I seriously doubt it's entered the mind of anyone who bothered to reply to the OP.

Knickers in a twist over nothing methinks.


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## Jelly (4 Nov 2015)

lurker":287u3h8d said:


> I have no problem about people earning a living working with wood describing themselves as tradesmen , but they are not professionals.
> A professional is someone who is a member of a professional body and could not practice if they were not.



Membership is not a strict requirement to practice in the spheres of either of my professional bodies (Royal Society of Chemistry and Institution of Chemical Engineers), but both provide Chartership, Registration and Incorporation (respectively) to certify minimum standards of competence and experience.

I see no difference between that and membership of the Guild of Master Craftsmen or the Institute of Carpenters (who have a very rigourous exam system in place) for a woodworker.


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## Inoffthered (4 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":1o7byqio said:


> That was point at the beginning, a section for trade, professional, paid, God knows What is politically correct anymore on here, to discuss issues Like payment, vans, tax codes, clients etc. Stuff that hobbyists would find boring or of no interest. I can't see why people would find that so hard



You could start a "Professionals" thread but for some of the items in your list of topics above, but I would respectfully suggest that other professionals are the last people to talk to. I have a number of clients that are professionals and over the years I have lost count of the number of referrals where i have had to dig people out of the mess they have gotten themselves into by discussing business issues with mates in the same trade. I have seen all manner of tax saving schemes adopted by people who followed what their mates were doing without realising that the basic premise of the scheme was fundamentally flawed and based on a misconception.

By all means consult your professional brethren to find the best place to buy walnut or technical chippy stuff but if you have queries of a more general commercial/legal/tax nature, you may find that some of the hobbyists on this forum may actually be more able to provide advice.


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## bugbear (4 Nov 2015)

phil.p":1drtnx7p said:


> CJ - Fair comment, but maybe I would blame the hike in price more on the greed of the owner of the yard than the "weekend warrior".



I overheard two antique dealers ("professionals") agreeing vehemently, and at length, that the public should not be allowed to attend antique auctions, because sometimes the public (in their implied ignorance) pay too much, driving prices up.

If you've ever _sold_ items at auction, you might have "an opinion" on this...

 

BugBear


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## AJB Temple (4 Nov 2015)

The trade v amateur debate will roll on forever. Both camps have their fair share of know it alls. 

I actually think that the trades have an advantage these days that they didn't have 20 years ago. The DIY sheds have struggled for a while and there has been significant consolidation in the market. Schools (state anyway) no longer teach woodwork and metalwork to anything like the extent that they used to do. There is far less of a culture of DIY amongst the twenty/thirty years old generation than there used to be: far fewer young couples are willing to tackle DIY (most of my staff in London would have no idea how to do a simple thing like pout up a shelf: they struggle with flatpack assembly). And regulation, such as the Part P rules have had the effect of protecting some trades to a degree that was not the case 20 years ago. 

So in many ways tradesman are in something of a golden era. The reporting schemes are a good idea to try to weed out the good ones from the cowboys. All the local tradesmen I have employed to do jobs this year have participated in this. 

My experience of employing trades (I used to be a property developer for a while) is that you can certainly find some excellent skilled people. Quite often though, these skills do not translate into running a business efficiently and if I were (say) a carpenter, I am not sure I would turn to other carpenters for advice on more general business matters. Very often the business side of small plumbing, electrical, groundwork, joinery and painting & decorating businesses is handled by the wife. Sometimes this works extremely well but can also be the weak link as communications can be terrible. For example, near me there is a very good fencer. He does excellent work. He lets his wife handle the customer bookings and make appointments etc. She is incompetent and slow at this and it costs him business. It cost him my business actually. His main local competitor knows this and operates a fast response charm offensive which means he cleans up 80% of the available local work.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Nov 2015)

BB - certainly, but auctions are a bit different. If I buy something for £100 at an auction, it might deprive a dealer the chance to buy at £70 and sell to me at £100 - it hasn't put the price up at all, just stopped a dealer making a fast buck.
We knew who all the dealers were and knew they had to resell - therefore if was safe to outbid them (within reason, of course).


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Nov 2015)

AJB Temple":381zu1u3 said:


> " ...There is far less of a culture of DIY amongst the twenty/thirty years old generation than there used to be: far fewer young couples are willing to tackle DIY (most of my staff in London would have no idea how to do a simple thing like pout up a shelf: they struggle with flatpack assembly)...


I do most things except wet trades quite happily, but I's sooner stick needles in my eyes than assemble flat pack furniture. :lol:


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## John Brown (4 Nov 2015)

As far as I know, the word "professional" used to mean something quite specifc, lawyer, doctor, that sort of thing. Working with wood, in any capacity, would have been a "trade".
These days it means nothing or anything. I can buy toothpaste in the supermarket that has the tag "professional" on the name, but that doesn't make me a dentist.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Nov 2015)

Indeed. "Professional" when applied to tools often means they are best avoided.


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## Lons (4 Nov 2015)

AJB Temple":cqru7pwp said:


> The trade v amateur debate will roll on forever. Both camps have their fair share of know it alls.
> 
> I actually think that the trades have an advantage these days that they didn't have 20 years ago. The DIY sheds have struggled for a while and there has been significant consolidation in the market. Schools (state anyway) no longer teach woodwork and metalwork to anything like the extent that they used to do. There is far less of a culture of DIY amongst the twenty/thirty years old generation than there used to be: far fewer young couples are willing to tackle DIY (most of my staff in London would have no idea how to do a simple thing like pout up a shelf: they struggle with flatpack assembly). And regulation, such as the Part P rules have had the effect of protecting some trades to a degree that was not the case 20 years ago.
> 
> ...



Absolutely spot on =D> =D> I agree with that wholeheartedly but with one caveat. 
Not all of the reporting systems and trade schemes are what they seem and their vetting systems in many cases easy to bypass. They are driven to enlist as many members as possible as they need membership and advertising income or funding to survive. Guarantees are insurance based and complicated and in reality the bodies have no teeth. Personal recommendation and research before employing someone still makes the most sense imho

My business background experience and training ensured that I was disciplined enough to look after the detail even though it's difficult to find the motivation to do the paperwork and return calls at the end of a long day though no excuse for poor communications with a mobile phone. By responding to everyone very quickly even the enquiries of little benefit to me I gained and more importantly kept a loyal customer base who were prepared to pay a reasonable price for a good job by someone they could trust. It's that little word *trust* that is worth the most to customers and what unsuccessful businesses forget.

My father in law many years ago had some large sums to invest and I suggested that he buy up some properties which at the time were going for a song, I would do them up for him and he could rent them out. A couple of his golfing buddies, an accountant and a solicitor both said he would lose money and persuaded him to invest in the stock market where he lost 70% of his savings. The houses in question have quadrupled in value and there is no shortage of tenants.

I also know a very good bricklayer who takes great pride in his work but he has absolutely no idea of his overhead cost or even if he's making a profit on the job which rather confirms some of your comments.

I also think that the sheds and internet suppliers have made it very easy for unqualified and inexperienced unscrupulous people to fleece the public. Years ago, to enable you to work for yourself you would need a sizeable investment in tools and equipment which is not the case today. The sheds etc have fuelled the flood of very cheap chiwanese tools and machinery and the huge growth of TV progs which suggest anyone can "do it" with cardboard and mdf doesn't help. 
Never did me any harm of course as they always need someone to pick up the pieces afterwards.

Bob


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## Lons (4 Nov 2015)

phil.p":2zy35kvn said:


> I do most things except wet trades quite happily, but I's sooner stick needles in my eyes than assemble flat pack furniture. :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol: Not a fan of Ikea then Phil? :wink:


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## Droogs (4 Nov 2015)

thick_mike. I'm never taking you down the pub, no interest in dominos indeed :shock:


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## WoodMangler (4 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":30yt8lkd said:


> Hi Rodders, what was the person asking for, i forget. Probably after a ton of hardwood for less than a fiver. Its true hobbyist, DIYers do drive the price of timber up, spoken to a few tradesman now saying same thing and to 2 timber yards who admit they can bump up the prices because so many weekend warriors are coming to buy timber.And before you go on at me for having something against the hobbyist, look at the large majority of posts on this thread, i would say there is a clear offensive to people that earn money from woodworking.


I just wonder if you're this rude and arrogant to those who have the misfortune to be your customers...


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## Wizard9999 (4 Nov 2015)

Having just caught up on this thread I really can't see that it is going anywhere now. Can the various parties just agree to disagree? The powers that be have no doubt seen it, they will decide if they want to start a new board for commercial matters or not.

Terry.


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## John Brown (4 Nov 2015)

WoodMangler":230b3ggz said:


> cornishjoinery":230b3ggz said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Rodders, what was the person asking for, i forget. Probably after a ton of hardwood for less than a fiver. Its true hobbyist, DIYers do drive the price of timber up, spoken to a few tradesman now saying same thing and to 2 timber yards who admit they can bump up the prices because so many weekend warriors are coming to buy timber.And before you go on at me for having something against the hobbyist, look at the large majority of posts on this thread, i would say there is a clear offensive to people that earn money from woodworking.
> ...


You don't have "customers" when you're a professional. You have "clients".


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## Kalimna (4 Nov 2015)

Well, I don't have 'clients', I have 'patients' 

Adam S, rather tired after night shift.


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## siggy_7 (4 Nov 2015)

Just read this whole thread in its entirity, what a laugh!

My two penneth' - I think the OP's request for a "Professional forum" has been a little misinterpreted. From his replies I think what he wants is a dedicated forum related to the aspects of being a professional/tradesman other than doing the work - principally the commercial/business aspects. I don't see why this is so objectionable - currently we have this behemoth that is "General Woodworking" where matters of price/rates occassionally surface which in my view is some way from the remit of a sub-forum on "General Woodworking", particularly one where lots of people who don't get paid for their work also read and contribute. Persionally I find it strange that a group of people who work with wood as a business would want to discuss commercial and pricing aspects on an open forum - if it were my living I would consider such information to be "commercially sensitive" but if that's what the OP wants then why not? It would also be a helpful resource for people looking to get into woodworking as a career to see the commercial realities of making a living out of it.

I would be disappointed if a "Professional" sub-forum also contained lots of posts about projects and techniques - both non-paid and paid woodworkers currently post in "General Woodworking" and "Projects" sub-forums with some cracking posts. I like seeing the projects that all of us tackle and the techniques that we use, I learn a lot from seeing the variety on offer and I don't see a reason to close it off. But I don't think that is what is being requested here.



> Why does everyone assume on here that if you say your a tradesman that you are a cowboy, it's like it's a naughty word on here, hush hush, if you say you get paid then you must be dung. It's almost like the hobbyist looks down on us.



Not at all - there are some fantastic people "in the trade" on this forum. I have used tradesmen in my house in the last couple of years (plumbers and electricians, where I wasn't allowed by building codes to do work myself) who I got on well with and would wholly recommend to others. If I may be so bold, it is your tone adopted when making daft comments like "amateurs should use offcuts to prevent putting up my prices" that causes friction. If I tried to make most of the projects I do with "offcuts" I'd be there for a month of Sundays sourcing material and another month of Sundays gluing up small pieces and end up with a right dog's breakfast - my time away from work is much more precious than that. Nothing puts my back up quicker than a guy "in the trade" who thinks he knows it all, treats his knowledge and skills as a completely closed shop and berates the work of people who attain skills out of passion and interest as a hobby rather than a career (of course, not suggesting that you would look down on the "hobbyist", would you?). Equally, there are few things more enjoyable to me than chatting through skills of a craft/trade with someone that has a wealth of experience and is happy to share it with someone who's interested in learning something.


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## dzj (4 Nov 2015)

Can we have a forum where it would be OK to speak ill of clients and their dastardly sidekicks (designers and architects)?
And bad-mouth building regulations and those that thought them up.


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## RobinBHM (4 Nov 2015)

dzj":3kltdvhy said:


> Can we have a forum where it would be OK to speak ill of clients and their dastardly sidekicks (designers and architects)?
> And bad-mouth building regulations and those that thought them up.



I'd be up for that


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## JonnyW (4 Nov 2015)

Been reading this thread with interest - and to tell you the truth, I gave up after I read that us hobbyists are driving the price of timber up!. Well I've read it all now.

So for my next project, I shall go into my local timber shop storeroom with a broom and sweep the shavings off the floor and take them home and glue them all together. Just to save you 'poor' tradesmen from having to pay too much for your timber.

Just to confuse matters, I served my time as a joiner and passed my City and Guilds advanced craft; I no longer work as a joiner, so what classification do I fall under? - could I start a new forum member moniker of 'qualified hobbyist?'

However, don't fret your little nail bags over the 'weekend warriors', as I read recently that the popularity of DIY in the UK is tailing off, as folk are preferring to get the 'professionals/qualified persons/tradesmen - or dare I say it, blue collar workers, in to work on their houses. Although I think you've got more to worry about than us weekend warriors.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...builder-instead-says-Travis-Perkins-boss.html

The OP didn't really bother me to tell you the truth. I too thought it could've been worded differently; however when it comes to written text, sometimes the required tone isn't there or can be misinterpreted - I've always said that I wish computers had a sarcasm font. 

It's a fair request for a 'trade/or folk working in the woodworking industry' section, and would be very handy for a fledgling business - better to hear folk's personal experiences.

Jonny


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## doctor Bob (4 Nov 2015)

I always think as a pro we are in a no win situation.

1/ Put up a picture of something and most then tell you it's not to their taste, handles are in the wrong place, colour too modern etc etc

2/ offer advice and it's usually ignored as Joe blogs and his mates out number your advice, even though you have tried it all ways and done it day in day out for 20 years.

3/ point out the error of someones work and I am lambasted for not understanding their level of ability.

4/ Do a workshop tour and get accused of promoting my business

5/ Show off a big machine and told it's not like the old craftsmans days

6/ mention MDF and you must be dodgy

7/ My dog eats Steve Maskery's homemade cake and you never hear the last of it.................. :lol:


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## cornishjoinery (4 Nov 2015)

Yes ok sometimes my attitude does come across sometimes brash and rude, really don't any offence over it (maybe should learn to use the faces). All i wanted was to start a sub forum about paid work, from peoples reactions you thought i was asking for Hitler to be resurrected! People on here have some very funny views on tradesman, its funny how people jumped down my throat from my first comment but have gone on to rip apart people that get paid to do joinery and carpentry. I work with wood for a living so i call myself a professional (3 years college, being taught the right way and the correct, safe manner in which to do things) and couldn't care what others say! what's the difference between a professional golfer and an amateur? One gets paid, some with a professional racing driver and an amateur one. Anyway lets get on with a different topic

..........what about difference between womena and men in woodworking?


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## Jacob (4 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":3bn3sm76 said:


> Yes ok sometimes my attitude does come across sometimes brash and rude, really don't any offence over it (maybe should learn to use the faces). All i wanted was to start a sub forum about paid work, from peoples reactions you thought i was asking for Hitler to be resurrected! People on here have some very funny views on tradesman, its funny how people jumped down my throat from my first comment but have gone on to rip apart people that get paid to do joinery and carpentry. I work with wood for a living so i call myself a professional (3 years college, being taught the right way and the correct, safe manner in which to do things) and couldn't care what others say! what's the difference between a professional golfer and an amateur? One gets paid, some with a professional racing driver and an amateur one. Anyway lets get on with a different topic
> 
> ..........what about difference between womena and men in woodworking?


Who is womena?


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## Lons (4 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":dkefxp7s said:


> People on here have some very funny views on tradesman,..........what about difference between womena and men in woodworking?



It's not getting through is it (hammer) The majority on here do not have funny ideas about tradesmen, it's your misinterpretation! There are a lot of tradesmen on the forum who are perfectly happy to accept and help as well as learn from the hobbyists on here.

If you really want to start world war 3 forget about men and women and post a stupid comment on sharpening, :wink: :lol:


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## cornishjoinery (4 Nov 2015)

Doctor Bob you have got in spot on! my point exactly for starting a pro forum.


a womena is a women...................


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## iNewbie (4 Nov 2015)

cornishjoinery":11j8jzcu said:


> Yes ok sometimes my attitude does come across sometimes brash and rude, really don't any offence over it (maybe should learn to use the faces). All i wanted was to start a sub forum about paid work*, from peoples reactions you thought i was asking for Hitler to be resurrected!* People on here have some very funny views on tradesman, its funny how people jumped down my throat from my first comment but have gone on to rip apart people that get paid to do joinery and carpentry. I work with wood for a living so i call myself a professional (3 years college, being taught the right way and the correct, safe manner in which to do things) and couldn't care what others say! what's the difference between a professional golfer and an amateur? One gets paid, some with a professional racing driver and an amateur one. Anyway lets get on with a different topic
> 
> ..........what about difference between womena and men in woodworking?



Finally. Godwins Law - I was waiting... :lol: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law


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## JonnyW (4 Nov 2015)

iNewbie":1b9uz8au said:


> cornishjoinery":1b9uz8au said:
> 
> 
> > Yes ok sometimes my attitude does come across sometimes brash and rude, really don't any offence over it (maybe should learn to use the faces). All i wanted was to start a sub forum about paid work*, from peoples reactions you thought i was asking for Hitler to be resurrected!* People on here have some very funny views on tradesman, its funny how people jumped down my throat from my first comment but have gone on to rip apart people that get paid to do joinery and carpentry. I work with wood for a living so i call myself a professional (3 years college, being taught the right way and the correct, safe manner in which to do things) and couldn't care what others say! what's the difference between a professional golfer and an amateur? One gets paid, some with a professional racing driver and an amateur one. Anyway lets get on with a different topic
> ...



Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. God this made me laugh. Brilliant. 

Jonny


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## Jacob (4 Nov 2015)

Lons":2xxi6idx said:


> cornishjoinery":2xxi6idx said:
> 
> 
> > People on here have some very funny views on tradesman,..........what about difference between womena and men in woodworking?
> ...


Yes cornishjoinery how's your sharpening? Time to get serious! Do you take a slab of granite on site with you?


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## JonnyW (4 Nov 2015)

Jacob":1r4bgp03 said:


> cornishjoinery":1r4bgp03 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes ok sometimes my attitude does come across sometimes brash and rude, really don't any offence over it (maybe should learn to use the faces). All i wanted was to start a sub forum about paid work, from peoples reactions you thought i was asking for Hitler to be resurrected! People on here have some very funny views on tradesman, its funny how people jumped down my throat from my first comment but have gone on to rip apart people that get paid to do joinery and carpentry. I work with wood for a living so i call myself a professional (3 years college, being taught the right way and the correct, safe manner in which to do things) and couldn't care what others say! what's the difference between a professional golfer and an amateur? One gets paid, some with a professional racing driver and an amateur one. Anyway lets get on with a different topic
> ...



I think Jacob, Womena are that scary intelligent things that make us mena build kitchens for them, for fear of losing one's tool bag. 

I could be wrong 

Jonny


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## Jacob (4 Nov 2015)

JonnyW":vrqjtgj8 said:


> Jacob":vrqjtgj8 said:
> 
> 
> > cornishjoinery":vrqjtgj8 said:
> ...


Right I know what you mean. :shock: What day is christmas on this year?


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## doorframe (4 Nov 2015)

Well, after the 1st page I thought "This is going to be great. Even better than a 'Mac VS Windows PC' thread. So, I got the popcorn, put a straw in the coke, and sat back to enjoy. And I have to say.... 

...hmm.. bit of a let-down really. A few 'reasonable' jokes, not nearly enough name-calling, the inevitable Godwins Law, and 9 pages later it looks like you all may even kiss and make-up!

It's not good enough really, is it? This place is going soft!

I'm off to watch Arsenal!


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## Zeddedhed (4 Nov 2015)

I think they've moved over to Beau's thread on finding his Mojo again. Jacob and Cornish are about to start a fight - much better than watching the buttocks!!


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## doorframe (4 Nov 2015)

And at 2-0 down before half time I've finished watching Arsenal. 

Oh well, lets concentrate on the important things... like beating the spuds on Sunday!


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## Graham Orm (4 Nov 2015)

doorframe":2eptx7cj said:


> And at 2-0 down before half time I've finished watching Arsenal.
> 
> Oh well, lets concentrate on the important things... like beating the spuds on Sunday!


3


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## doorframe (4 Nov 2015)

4 #-o


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## PUtcvNqa (4 Nov 2015)

stopped at 5
less clue than a joiner in the SW innit


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## n0legs (4 Nov 2015)

PUtcvNqa":38h1t8y2 said:


> stopped at 5
> less clue than a joiner in the SW innit



^ :lol: :lol: 
pineapple me I needed a good laugh today


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## doorframe (4 Nov 2015)

Safe to say, when it comes to winning the Champions League, the Gooners are most definitely the Goners!


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## No skills (5 Nov 2015)

Great thread.

Some random thoughts..

It's very hard to find 'good' trades people because there are so many wasters out there doing dung work (I live next door to one) I would imagine this gives some people a negative attitude towards trade people in general.

I do a certain amount of "wood work" as part of my job, am I a joiner or professional wood worker? Nope, not even close.

WWUK is a good resource, there's more kitchen building (and door/window) info tucked away in old posts than you can shake a stick at - mostly down to the likes of Bob that run their own company.

The timber price thing is a joke, if you want cheaper prices buy in bulk and negotiate.

There's more but no one wants to read it and I'm ******* tired :lol:


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## petermillard (6 Nov 2015)

Fun thread - manages to upset, offend and amuse just about everyone, in equal measure  And kudos to Cornish for maintaining his defensive position throughout - if he ever fancies a change of career there's a job for you at Arsenal, lol!
+1 to everything Dr Bob wrote further up as well.

FWIW I'd certainly be interested in seeing a 'trade talk' section here - not sure how active it would be, but like the 'general metalworking' sub-forum, we probably won't know unless it's offered?

Cheers, Pete

Edited for spelling


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## clk230 (6 Nov 2015)

Maybe see if a mod will make a sticky post titled 'trade talk' , although people seem to find it hard enough to post in the relevant sections as it is ( i.e this very thread one as an example) . Still not sure what difference having a separate section will make other than maybe fragmenting the place up .

One thing to note I've not seen anyone on this thread dis or have any problems with trade members BUT Cornish seems to have a problem with hobby woodworkers .


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Nov 2015)

Good point - many people don't post in the correct sections anyway.


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## mseries (6 Nov 2015)

For me some of the most interesting and respected (by me) posters on here are tradesmen. I wouldn't be interested in their discussions on van insurance or workplace pensions for example but I like to see what they've done and value their opinion on how to do things. Thing is we don't get many thread discussing trade specific topics like van insurance, VAT so I question the need for a separate place to do it. If the OP wants to make it clear to other readers that he's a trademan then you should just put a statement and link in your footer to say so. I would have thought you'd want to show off your work to as wide an audience as possible not just other tradesmen


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## lurker (6 Nov 2015)

clk230":blle7s7v said:


> One thing to note I've not seen anyone on this thread dis or have any problems with trade members BUT Cornish seems to have a problem with hobby woodworkers .



He has problems with people he "assumes" are hobby woodworkers
Have a look at his previous inputs and you can see where he was trying to "put Mailee down"
Its not this post but his general attitude.

Maybe if he puts link to his own website (like others have done) we could see if he walks the talk 
Personally I think he lives under a bridge


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## petermillard (6 Nov 2015)

lurker":cfyw5ymo said:


> Maybe if he puts link to his own website (like others have done) we could see if he walks the talk
> Personally I think he lives under a bridge


He put up a selection of his recent work the other day in the 'projects' section - and very nice it is too. 

Cheers, Pete


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## BearTricks (6 Nov 2015)

mseries":3ayddit9 said:


> For me some of the most interesting and respected (by me) posters on here are tradesmen. I wouldn't be interested in their discussions on van insurance or workplace pensions for example but I like to see what they've done and value their opinion on how to do things. Thing is we don't get many thread discussing trade specific topics like van insurance, VAT so I question the need for a separate place to do it. If the OP wants to make it clear to other readers that he's a trademan then you should just put a statement and link in your footer to say so. I would have thought you'd want to show off your work to as wide an audience as possible not just other tradesmen


Perhaps if there were a specific subforum for it then it would attract more members who are tradesmen and their knowledge would trickle in to the other subforums.

This reminds me. This thread crossed my mind yesterday when I was in Axminster. A couple of paint covered, 20 something, man-in-van types had wandered over from the screwfix and/or tool station across the road probably to compare prices and have a gander. They were wondering loudly what festool was and why it was so bloody expensive, if there were any dewalt tools knocking about, and looking confused over the fancy planes. 

Philistines. :mrgreen:



Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## mseries (6 Nov 2015)

BearTricks":2btb2u1h said:


> Perhaps if there were a specific subforum for it then it would attract more members who are tradesmen and their knowledge would trickle in to the other subforums.



Maybe, I hope it doesn't though, well I hope it wouldn't attract (some of) the tradesmen whose comments I read on Screwfix and DIYNot


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## clk230 (6 Nov 2015)

You've only got to look at the thread about VAT on 2nd hand items the other month lots of different answers and some choosing not to believe the truth .Some questions are best left to paid professionals i.e your accountant rather than random forum members .
The 'off topic' section is good for general questions not already covered .


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## Jacob (6 Nov 2015)

It's possible to have a closed forum with membership controlled by a moderator, either publicly viewable or completely closed. 
cornishpasty could be the mod and chose who he wanted to join, if anybody wanted to!


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## lurker (6 Nov 2015)

petermillard":vd0gsn7x said:


> lurker":vd0gsn7x said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe if he puts link to his own website (like others have done) we could see if he walks the talk
> ...



I stand corrected....... Maybe 
Somebody does nice work I agree


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## James-1986 (6 Nov 2015)

Is sounds like the most boring sub forum ever. All these things are discussed regularly with other "Pro's" that I know, anybody who is anybody in the trade has contacts.

Not interested, I want to read about stuff that we never have the opportunity to do and often don't have the skills to do. I've learnt a lot from these forums.


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