# sorby/Tormek jigs vs wolverine/storme etc?



## nev (1 Apr 2012)

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest hurdle i have in turning is getting a constantly and correctly shaped edge when sharpening. In light of this my next WS purchase will be a sharpening jig.
Not being made of money I am afraid the proedges and tormeks are outa my league  but the bench grinder 'conversion' kits I could probably stretch to. 
http://www.tormek.com/en/accessories/bgm100/index.php
http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grindin ... l#SorbyJig

My main issue is with the spindle (generally too pointy) and bowl (uneven) gouges. I have an RP 6" grinder.

My choices seem to be between the Sorby 447 deluxe (plus a few minor jiggy bits) and the tormek kit (125 quid), or the likes of the wolverine/ storme/ trugrind/ dakota type jigs. (£less)

My question to the more experienced of you out there is this... does anyone have any experience of more than one of the above? moved from one type to another? swear by or avoid like the plague etc.

I am leaning towards the tormek but before i splash out, any reasons not too? :?


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## Paul Hannaby (1 Apr 2012)

The Sorby and Tormek fingernail jigs are pretty much the same thing but with a different means of attachment. I used to use the Sorby jig but have now moved on to the Tormek jigs because they can be used on both the bench grinder and wet grinders as I have both. The Tormek is also more versatile because you can buy any of their other jigs if you need them.
The proedge seems to be just a belt sander with a bracket to attach a jig. If I was going down that route, I'd probably buy a cheaper belt sander and make a bracket myself.


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## CHJ (1 Apr 2012)

nev":30v1fv4s said:


> My main issue is with the spindle (generally too pointy) and bowl (uneven) gouges. I have an RP 6" grinder.



Although a jig will help with repeatability the actual profile (pointy or otherwise) is still down to operator and the dwell time on any particular area of the cutting edge.

The Tormek Gouge Jig (also used by Sorby on the Pro Edge) is the most versatile I find, but it does not need the expenditure on all the support bits to fit it to your grinder.
I use one alongside my home made equivalent (both preset for my two regular gouges).


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## jumps (1 Apr 2012)

do not underestimate Chas's observation - you can get perfect and pointy gouges from the same settings on the 447 (for example)!


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## Silverbirch (1 Apr 2012)

Hi Nev,

I have been on an eternal quest to find the perfect sharpening system since I took up turning and, lacking first hand advice or instruction, have tried most of the kit you mention.
I could probably write a book, but to summarise:
I have used (and since sold on) the Sorby jig. It worked ok, but tended to foul the grinding wheel, damaging the soft aluminium of the jig.
I also have set up at present, the Tormek BGM 100 jig, on a Record 6" grinder. It too works OK, but I find sliding it along the bar and swinging the jig awkward and it`s at least as fiddly as the others to set up.
I also have, and like best, the Wolverine system. Not cheap,but built to last. The fingernail profiler is easy and accurate to set and works well. The only problem is, when your gouges wear down, they might not be able to project sufficiently to achieve the desired profile.
I`ve found that as I become more proficient, and having ground away my fair share of expensive steel, that the Wolverine platform, which is very sturdy and easy to adjust, serves most of my sharpening needs. I can now sharpen fingernail profiles, and other turning tools, reasonably well by resting my hand or the tool on the platform and moving it freehand. No need for lots of fiddly set up before use. It has taken a while for me to reach this stage and I wouldn`t try to suggest it`s as "accurate" as using a jig, but it`s a lot quicker and more versatile, and I think it has developed my sharpening skill. The Wolverine kit will sharpen most turning tools plus bench chisels, plane irons etc as a bonus. It would be my first choice.

Ian


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## Jonzjob (1 Apr 2012)

Apart from a very basic jig that I made from some plan a long while back 






I progressed to a Wolverine kit and haven't looked back. As Ian has said it's easy to use and I have found it accurate.

But it does take some of the "I wonder how it will cut now I did sharpen it" out of the equasion :mrgreen:


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## boysie39 (2 Apr 2012)

I have had most if not all of the grinding systems that can be bought .I have now settled for the Wolverine and have become kinda settled on it.
When I started out on this vortex I had a lathe and all the gear that goes with it and a set of 10 gouges the whole lot cost 60 euro. I had no grinder only a small bosch belt sander ,and to this day I swear that I could get better edges on me tools with it. I even made up a jig to Keith Rowely spec. and thought this is it. Then I discovered the dreaded Fingernail grind and all me troubles began, and to some extent would still exsist if I had'nt experimented with grinds and found some which suit me and I can replaciate on the Wolverine .
That to me is where the problems start trying to keep factory produced grinds that came on the tools when bought.
If you can repeat a cutting edge that you are happy with for doing what you want it too stick with it.
While I have been typing this post some company somewhere has probly manufactured a couple of new jigs that are going to MAKE your turning experience so easy .What a load of bull .


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## cambournepete (2 Apr 2012)

I think I've just about settled on using the tormek jigs on a bench grinder, for now anyway. I can usually get a repeatable grind I like and usually I'm gentle enough to not blue the steel.
I have two of the Tormek bowl gouge jigs, one set for a "traditional" grind and the other for an Ellsworth grind.
I might even get a third jig for spindle gouges as it's much quicker and easier to use a different jig that keep changing and trying to reset the settings of one jig.
Now about grind wheels...


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## tudormaker (2 Apr 2012)

Some of you more experienced and or professional members here will will probably laugh at my sharpening jig but.
The amount of steel removed is almost negligible.
There is no need to change wheels.
Three grades of grit and a wheel with honing paste.
The only parts bought were the metal rods and the bearings (about £10), even the belt was home made.
And I had fun making it.















Terry


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## cambournepete (2 Apr 2012)

Why anyone laugh?
That looks great - care to share construction details?


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## boysie39 (2 Apr 2012)

cambournepete":30c82pzx said:


> Why anyone laugh?
> That looks great - care to share construction details?



I agree with Pete please share wit us THE TUDOR GRIND System =D> =D>


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## Jonzjob (2 Apr 2012)

Well, I will buck the trend and say that it really is laughable! Laughably simple, laughably efficient and laughably cheap too!

Looks good to me Tudor :mrgreen:


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## Silverbirch (2 Apr 2012)

A neat solution, Tudormaker! Definitely worth some further publicity!
For anyone who hankers after a Sorby Proedge, there is a poor man`s version here and here which looks interesting. You need to look at the first video before the second one makes sense. There`s a fair bit of waffle at the beginning before he gets down to the niity gritty.

Ian


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## nev (2 Apr 2012)

Terry, How soon can you deliver :mrgreen: 

Seriously though its always puzzled me why most sharpening systems don't have more that one grade of wheel attached* or extra wide multi grade wheels that go from fine at one end to really fine at the other :? 
*I mean at one end, not one at each end

Thanks for the input guys =D> , looks like Ian's done all my testing for me  and it looks like its the wolverine with vari-jig or Chas' cost saving tormek jig on a home made block are favourite . Hoping to get to my 'local' (30 mile round trip) tool shop in the next day or so to see if he's got the wolverine there alongside the tormek, and see if i can get a 'go' both, check out if my wrist action is more suited to one than the other :shock:


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## Shay Vings (2 Apr 2012)

I bought the Axminster Storme as it seemed to offer the best value: 2 bases included like Wolverine but no need to purchase second fingernail jig for gouges over 5/8, and no need to buy extra skew holder. Also, like Trugrind but includes 2 bases as standard. Quite a bit cheaper than Sorby 447 when you add in their fingernail jig.

Its engineering is OK, but nothing more and there are a few quirks especially on the fingernail holder. The locking screw turns the wrong way (unscrews to tighten) and will not hold small diameter gouges properly (they rotate because the groove in the holder is the wrong shape). Unless you have a long projection on the gouge, it is easy to foul the grinding wheel and take a chunk out of the holder. There are no calalibration marks either: you have to scribe your own.

Like I said, its OK - nothing more, but if you are on a tight budget, it will do the job.


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## Robbo3 (3 Apr 2012)

Over the years I have used :

Tormek wet system

- disposed of because it was too slow to get out, fill with water, grind, then empty & put away. Why empty? Because water evaporates, adding to the moisture content of the air in the workshop & also the risk of freezing in winter.


Homemade platform & a homemade sliding v-arm. Used in conjunction with ..... 

Sorby 445 Fingernail Profiler

- excellent choice IMHO as the grinding angle is governed by how far the gouge protudes from the jig which is a fixed distance from the grinding wheel & therefore one less thing to get wrong. With the platform assembly (which I don't have) this would, again IMHO, make a versatile all round system.
One small problem on some grinds, the gouge holder would make contact with the motor body before the left hand side of the grind was completed, although I've not managed to grind away part of the jig as some people have mentioned.


Axminster Storme (similar to the Wolverine system).

- Having only just set up this system my first impressions are that it is solidly built. The sliding v-arm is too long (over 27") for it to be used in its normal place of rest so I now have to move it onto a workmate or the workbench before use.
There are no instuctions on how to set up a gouge for sharpening & no markings on the jig. The screw mechanism for holding the gouge works in the wrong direction, ie anti-clockwise to tighten & clockwise to loosen.
Setting the gouge protrusion to 2" & adjusting the sliding arm to achieve the same angle of the previous grind, I still had no idea what angle was required on the elbow joint of the jig, so I left it as it was, stuck a bit of masking tape on & marked a line opposite a nose which projects from the top half. This nose looked to be approx 90° to the body of the jig.
A dry run before starting the grinder, by pure luck, gave near enough the same grind as the Sorby jig on both a 3/8" & 1/2" spindle gouges.
I also tried a 1/4" bowl gouge on the same settings but it ground far too much off the wings. I also had to use a washer across the top of the flute of this small gouge to ensure that it sat level.

I feel that I am lucky to have had the experience of using the Sorby profile jig to gain the correct (for me) grinds which allows me to then set up the Storme profile jig. The novice reader won't have had that experience to fall back on & thus will be setting up the jig by trial & error.

The instructions for the Tormek Gouge jig explain clearly what each adjustment does & could be applied to jigs used by similar systems.

HTH

Robbo


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## Albion (30 May 2012)

I've just bought a Storme jig and as you mentioned, Robbo3, I have no idea what angle to set it for the different gouges.

Could anyone give me some idea what to set it to for spindle and bowl gouges? Cheers


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## nev (30 May 2012)

Have a look at these previous posts to give an idea of some angles and profiles...
cause-of-banding-on-insides-of-bowls-t45894.html?hilit=profiles
post648225.html?hilit=profiles#p648225
and also
http://www.hannaby.com/bowl-shaping.html
http://www.peterchild.co.uk/sitemap.htm#infolist has a lot of good info on all things turning related


hth


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## Albion (30 May 2012)

Thanks for the links Nev but I was actually looking for help with the angles for the spindle holder in the jig not the gouges themselves. 
Sorry I wasn't clearer.


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## nev (30 May 2012)

I splashed out on the wolverine and have not seen the storme one but if its the same maybe the oneway videos may shine some light...
http://www.oneway.ca/index.php?option=c ... &Itemid=15
?


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## Albion (30 May 2012)

Thanks! That should be really helpful, the systems look very similar.


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## paul-c (31 May 2012)

hi all
you know sometimes when you read a post and just have to check back to see other peoples opinions - well this is the one for me.
nev thanks for starting this.
chas , terry and everyone else thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions on this subject that, i for one and, im sure many others struggle with.
cheers
paul-c


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## dennisk (31 May 2012)

I made up some homemade things and was never really pleased with them. I had built the rests that are in Keith rowleys book and they are on my 6" grinder and they are great. When I bought an 8" grinder then I took the splash and bought the Oneway system and it is great. Well built and easy to set up and strong. It is amazing how many times Keith Rowley gets mentioned in here, isn't it!


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## KimG (27 Jul 2012)

Robbo, thanks for your in depth analysis, I am considering the Storme, but reading your post makes me wonder if I would not in fact be better off with the Sorby, seeing as you found the Sorby so useful, why did you also buy the Storme? Did it fill a shortfall in the Sorby jig?


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## gregmcateer (28 Jul 2012)

Nev,
Axminster sell their equivalent of the wolverine, which seems to be pretty much the same and I am sure it is cheaper

(Though I am happy to stand corrected by those with more knowledge.

For what it's worth, Richard Findley showed me how to do it all on the simple platform, like Silverbirch above. (Not saying I can do it reliably yet, but I am getting the hang of it).

HTH 
Greg


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## TEP (29 Jul 2012)

Just my take on the sharpening topic. As already said NO jig will sharpen your tools without a good bit of operator experience. ONE you need to know what profile you are aiming for. TWO, the biggest problem with newbie's to a jig is grinding on a complete sweep, you need to remove certain areas of steel to achieve the profile you need. THREE, most of these jigs give you far to many variables to play with, such that again with out any experience newbie becomes totaly disappointed. I don't blame him, as with just half an hour tuition he would have the knowledge.

IMO ALL long grind jigs should be fixed, this is one variable you can really do without. A profile jig such as the Hamlet, is in my opinion one of the best on the market. You set the projection of the tool in the jig and set the angle pushing the V rest in or out. Keeping the projection measurement on ALL gouges you then only have the one variable.

A previous poster mention having to move his grinder as the V rest was too long. I constructed my own jig, and the V rest is only about 10" long. I only sharpen my long grind spindle and bowl gouges in it. All my other tools are sharpened and shaped on the flat table. I know they show you grinding a conventional bowl grind in the V arm at full stretch, but you try to put a 80deg grind on a bowl gouge like that and watch what happens, just keep your hands clear.

I based my jig on the Wolverine with a few alterations, another good example for any one who fancies having a go at making one is here.


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## nev (29 Jul 2012)

TEP":2dl5vdyg said:


> ... but you try to put a 80deg grind on a bowl gouge like that and watch what happens, just keep your hands clear.
> ...



Seconded! and DAMHIKT :shock:  #-o 

Greg..
Thanks for the heads up, but this is an oldish post and i plumped for the wolverine with no regrets bar one , see above!
whether it is just the passing of time and experience or the jigs themselves but my tools are a lot sharper and consistent with the kit than before it.

Also turning is a lot easier when your tools are _actually _sharp, as opposed to when you _thought _they were sharp. A lot of the advice given on the forum or indeed in various books makes a lot more sense and actually works straight away when you have _*sharp*_ tools


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## woodyturner (29 Jul 2012)

Sorry if I'm opening a can of worms here but I have seen no mention of learning to sharpen freehand I'm not knocking or trying to step on anyone's toes regarding using jigs or sharpening systems but as good as they may be they are not the only way to sharpen when I learned to sharpen there weren't all the aids there are today and we had to learn how to sharpen freehand before we were allowed to use the tools it just seems a lot of expense for a newbie to lay out before trying to learn freehand which then leaves a few hundred pounds to spend other tools but in saying all this I do understand that some people find it impossible to sharpen freehand and need these systems but all I'm saying is they are not the only way to sharpen


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## CHJ (29 Jul 2012)

*woodyturner*, are you saying that all that glitters is unecessary for 80%+ of turners ?

Brave Man.


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## nev (29 Jul 2012)

woodyturner":1c7hc7i4 said:


> Sorry if I'm opening a can of worms here but I have seen no mention of learning to sharpen freehand I'm not knocking or trying to step on anyone's toes regarding using jigs or sharpening systems but as good as they may be they are not the only way to sharpen when I learned to sharpen there weren't all the aids there are today and we had to learn how to sharpen freehand before we were allowed to use the tools it just seems a lot of expense for a newbie to lay out before trying to learn freehand which then leaves a few hundred pounds to spend other tools but in saying all this I do understand that some people find it impossible to sharpen freehand and need these systems but all I'm saying is they are not the only way to sharpen



I agree!
the best grind I have seen so far was the one that Richard did for me (freehand) , but if like me you're inclined to have a go yerself without someone teaching/ showing you, its a lot easier with a jig and instructions :wink:


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## woodyturner (29 Jul 2012)

CHJ":1o4yaf20 said:


> *woodyturner*, are you saying that all that glitters is unecessary for 80%+ of turners ?
> 
> Brave Man.


No I'm not I'm just saying it isn't the only way I once watched a demo of the Sorby system and he didn't get tools as sharp as some of us old un do freehand and it took a lot longer to set up but as I have already said I can see there is a need for some people but not for everyone


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## Richard Findley (29 Jul 2012)

Hi all

There's not much I could add regarding jigs because I don't use them! With the mention of free hand I thought I would add my thoughts. 

If you've read this month's Woodturning Magazine you'll know how I sharpen my tools, basically freehand from a tilting table. I have tried totally free hand but found that my angles became a bit shorter each time until they were not much good. With the tilting table I can regulate the angle and ensure it is what I'm after. 

A recent experience suggested to me a possible issue with jig based sharpening. I have used a Henry Taylor 3/8 Superflute bowl gouge since I started turning 10 years or so ago but it is now becoming a little short do I recently bought a new one, this time I went for an Ashley Iles bowl gouge. Still an excellent tool but with a slightly different shaped flute, and when I say slightly, I mean a tiny tiny bit different. I went about sharpening it to my preferred shape but found it didn't cut quite the same as my old gouge. I realised that the slight difference in flute meant there was more metal in one area of bevel that needed some extra attention on the grinder. Using my freehand method I was able to tweak the grind until it worked as I wanted, I think though, that if I was using a jig I would have no choice and would just have to struggle on. 

Partly this is down to experience and knowing how I expect my gouge to cut but I can't help feeling if I had been using a jig I would have been frustrated. This must be a real problem for beginners because a sharp tool, as Nev said earlier in the thread, makes life sooooo much easier!!

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.

Cheers

Richard


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## CHJ (29 Jul 2012)

Richard Findley":20v817oj said:


> .... I went about sharpening it to my preferred shape but found it didn't cut quite the same as my old gouge. I realised that the slight difference in flute meant there was more metal in one area of bevel that needed some extra attention on the grinder. Using my freehand method I was able to tweak the grind until it worked as I wanted, I think though, that if I was using a jig I would have no choice and would just have to struggle on.
> ........I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.
> ....



I came across this when deciding to experiment with an Ellsworth long grind, I found I had to modify the angles and position of my jig considerably to match a gouge that had been done for me by a supplier, (they had done it freehand) No way would either of two other gouges I already had (hamlet & crown) with similar flutes grind to the same profile with the same settings.

For the record Ellsworth and me don't get on together for my type of turning, I get on much better with shorter grinds much like Richards gouges shown in the Mag. 
Maybe it's to do with the fact I tend to use a lot of the tools much like I would for metal turning.

Determined to practise none jig bowl gouge sharpening more, see if I can go more than a week without having to recover the shape with a jig.


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## naulattaa (29 Jul 2012)

I use a mix of tormek, grinder and belt sander (been using for a few years now) -> all with the tormek jigs/jig holders.

I dont get enough practice to be able to do a good enough job in freehand sharpening the more complex forms (especially the Ellsworth grind... Tried to duplicate the grind to an old gouge freehand but failed and almost ran out of flute  )

IMHO its the results that matter, use what you have and do your best.


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## 12345Peter (29 Jul 2012)

Richard Findley":35pqsjle said:


> Hi all
> 
> I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.
> 
> ...



I can remember my first attempts at sharpening freehand, having only started turning about October/November last year. I had never had instruction and made a complete mess of it, the only tool I managed to sharpen well was the roughing gouge.

I watched the Gary Rance's DVD section on sharpening and he made it look so easy, so I tried again, but it still didn't work well. I forgot to say that Gary showed me how to sharpenen his 1/2" round skew and after a couple of goes I now have no problem doing that freehand. I bought the Sorby universal sharpening system and straight off my gouges were sharp and I could continue to turn again.

I would love to be able to sharpen all my tools freehand and I do still try to, knowing that if I mess it up I can use the jig to get back to a useable tool.

I am only just getting to the point where I can see that if I change the grind I can effect a better cut, or at least think I can. Maybe a one to one session on sharpening would be beneficial with second or third back-up session if necessary, would be the way to go, but at least with the jig, I can continue to turn.

Regards


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## Silverbirch (29 Jul 2012)

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, having tried various jigs, I am now using just the Wolverine platform to maintain the angle I require, either by resting the tool directly on it or using it to support my hand as I manipulate the tool.
This means that when I need to sharpen, I just switch the grinder on and a few seconds later I`m done. No fiddling with settings and measurements.
More importantly, I believe I`m learning to fine tune my tools to the cuts I want to make. My sharpening skills are developing in tandem with my turning skills, so I feel I`m making progress towards control and mastery of the whole turning process. 
I still have some way to go before I can consistently produce the results I`m aiming for.
My jigs are still stowed away in the cupboard, ready to be resurrected if I lose heart :lol: 

Ian


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## TEP (30 Jul 2012)

Richard Findley":skoao5uo said:


> Hi all
> 
> Partly this is down to experience and knowing how I expect my gouge to cut but I can't help feeling if I had been using a jig I would have been frustrated. *This must be a real problem for beginners because a sharp tool, as Nev said earlier in the thread, makes life sooooo much easier!!
> *
> ...



I sharpened all my tools freehand until the time a few years back when there was a great show about the so called 'Ellsworth, Celtic, Irish' grinds that everyone was advocating at the time. I tried to emulate the shape freehand but did find the edge wanting, and defy anyone to get a consistent bevel around the whole edge. 

So came the time of me making my copy of the Wolverine. I only sharpen my long grind gouges on it, all other tools are still worked on the flat table. Normal bowl gouge grinds are done on the table as well. IMO when a newbie buys a jig it is because they are/or think they are having problems after reading the blurb in magazine articles. They can then begin to think that their way of sharpening is wrong, and will be perfect 'if only they could do it this way'.

As with most ideas in this hobby you take 5 turners and ask a question, and you get 5 differing answers, and what makes it even more confusing is that each of the 5 ways would probably achieve the end goal admirably.

As said I only use a 'vari grind' jig for my long grind gouges, and use a flat jig (table) to do all the rest. Only once have I seen a old turner at a show many years ago that actually tickled the edge of his tools on a grindstone with no jig what so ever.

Finally, there is often a slight snobbery about 'freehand' against 'jig' sharpening, at the end of the day I do this hobby to turn, sharpening is only one of many disciplines to learn to allow you to turn proficiently. 

*Does it really matter how you get your tools sharp?*


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## Paul Hannaby (31 Jul 2012)

I used to sharpen all my tools freehand with a tilting table but a few years ago I started using a jig. I used to use a sorby jig, which is obviously derived from the tormek jig and now I use a tormek jig because it can easily be transferred between my dry and wet grinders.

I used (and still use) the same angles and profiles for freehand and jig sharpening but the big difference I find with using a jig is that the tools last a great deal longer because I lose less metal each time I sharpen and I get less facets on the bevels allowing a better cut and cleaner curves as a result.

I use the gouge jig for my spindle gouges (and a couple of scrapers) but I still sharpen all my bowl gouges freehand because I don't use a fingernail grind on them. I also have a tormek jig I can use for skews etc. but I rarely put those on the grinder anyway - I usually sharpen them freehand with a diamond slip.

Richard is right in what he says about gouges needing more grinding on the thicker areas but this is equally easy to balance with a jig as it is freehand.

In answer to Ian's question - yes it does matter how you get your tools sharp because a sharp tool with an unusable edge is no good to anyone. Getting them sharp is only half the battle. The edge shape and geometry also contribute to how the tool works (or doesn't work).


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