# My LN 5 1/2 has rusted :(



## Jez (22 Sep 2007)

You may remember me making a thread a while back about small patches of rust on my chisels and got great advice and bought a Garyflex fine abrasive block, Camelia Oil and a new chisel roll and since then i've had no problems at all  

I finished collage a couple of months ago and haven't been able to use my tools at all there just sitting in my tool box and every so often i check on them to make sure theres no signs of rust etc.. 
My house is quite damp at the moment, theres alot of building work been done and its quite open to the elements. 
When i bought my 5 1/2 i made sure to buy one of the plane socks to keep it when i'm not using it since it is "Impregnated with rust inhibitors" and i always wipe some Camelia Oil on it when i've finished using it to stop rusting. Well i hadn't checked on it for a month or so and when i checked it today i got abit of a shock :shock: 
When i took it out the plane sock i found quite heavy red rust on both sides of the plane and some underneath. 
I used the Garyflex block on it for a few minutes and it knocked back the rust quite abit you can still see its there but its not to bad.. 

here is what its looking like at the moment 
http://mi7.snappyupload.net/DSC00252.JPG 
http://mi7.snappyupload.net/DSC00253.JPG 

the garyflex seems to be able do so much, but maybe a more course block might be the answer, the block i used on it was the brown 'fine' one. 

has anyone tried this : 
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... e=1&jump=0 

Sorry for such a long post, any tips or suggestions would be great  

Cheers, 
Jez


----------



## Philly (22 Sep 2007)

Jez
Why don't you try some fine wet and dry sandpaper with some WD40. Try 600 grit - should remove the rust without removing too much metal. 
Hope this helps
Philly


----------



## tnimble (22 Sep 2007)

I'm with Philly on this. Rust removers work by a chemical reaction, what will happen, how will you control the reaction, can you stop the reaction when it does not do what it should, after a successful rust removal what will the effect be in the long run, will the reaction continue very slowly etc. 

Take a piece of glass and some of the wet and dry grit 600 (or maybe start with 400). Break the back of the paper and place it on the glass. Use the surface tension of some liquid (i use mineral turpentine, but W40 will do about the same) and also wet the top of the sand paper with that liquid. Sand the rust off the plane. Some do this with figure 8s I do linear passes.

You should be able to remove all the rust and have indeed reflatten the plane if any at all would have been necessary. When only doing the last tiny spots freehand your plane remains perfect flat or even is slightly flatter afterwars.


----------



## Alf (22 Sep 2007)

Ouch, Jez. There's a surprise we can all do without.  Coupla' things; first one being that I'd do as Phil suggests. Use it wet with some white spirits or meths for a better finish and go to a coarser grit and then work up again if necessary. The trouble with rust removing stuff in any chemical form is it'll tend to effect the unrusty areas too and can turn everything a rather dull grey. Dunno if the Liberon does this but it seems overkill for the problem.

Then think about prevention again. I have some doubts about the long term efectiveness of camelia oil. Okay if you're doing a quick wipe every day but I've had very mixed results over any length of time. To be honest I've yet to find anything to beat a nice coat of wax, buffed out. Seems to prevent to evil orange lurgy but doesn't have to be removed before using the tool. I'd hazard a guess that the plane sock was counter-productive in your case because it held the moisture close to the plane; in conjunction with some moisture prevention they work okay. If your tools are in an enclosed space then consider something along the lines of those silica gel bags (same stuff is sold to combat condensation on windows), or some people swear by having a light bulb permanently lit in their tool storage to keep it warm. I cover all the bases with a dehumidifier in the workshop and those anti-rust vapour things and paper in my tool chest and cupboards as well as wax on the tools and plane socks on some of the planes; spend too much of my time removing other people's rust on tools as it is! :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## tnimble (22 Sep 2007)

I agree with Alf for the prevention of rust. Currently I'm trying Boeshield T-9 (which is available on this side of the pond since a few months now) I currently prefer it above wax but still of cause lack the long time results with it.


----------



## Anonymous (22 Sep 2007)

I find wax doesn't work as well as Camelia oil


----------



## Evergreen (22 Sep 2007)

Jez

I'm another wax user. In particular, I use Renaissance Wax, a micro-crystalline wax blended to a formula used by the British Museum. It can be used on all manner of materials e.g. wood, marble, bone, enamel, not just metals. Just a small dab goes a long way and it dries completely. I got mine in Lakeland, believe it or not, but they don't always stock it.

Regards.


----------



## ByronBlack (22 Sep 2007)

I find camelia oil to be a real disappointment. I bought some recently, and had smeared my new set of AI chisels, a couple of weeks had passed and there so much rust on the chisels that I could no longer see the Ashley Iles black branding!! 

Also, is there such a thing as 'rusty fingers' because almost without fail everytime I go to my veritas block it has rust exactly where my fingers were so much so it shows the finger prints! If I leave it too long, I have to resort to taking wire wool to it. 

Yet my older tools don't show any signs of rust even if I leave them out in the open - is 'new' steel that much more susceptible to rust?


----------



## tnimble (22 Sep 2007)

ByronBlack":btl97mpv said:


> I find camelia oil to be a real disappointment. I bought some recently, and had smeared my new set of AI chisels, a couple of weeks had passed and there so much rust on the chisels that I could no longer see the Ashley Iles black branding!!


:shock: My condolences


> Also, is there such a thing as 'rusty fingers' because almost without fail everytime I go to my veritas block it has rust exactly where my fingers were so much so it shows the finger prints! If I leave it too long, I have to resort to taking wire wool to it.



We are very dirty beasts, covered with greasy acids, smelly and every where we go we leave all kinds of residue behind like dead skin, hair and that greasy acid.

Metal and acid don't go together very well. Especially copper and iron.



> Yet my older tools don't show any signs of rust even if I leave them out in the open - is 'new' steel that much more susceptible to rust?


Different quality of steel, probably because the older tools contain more of other metals, like tin, zinc and carbon.


----------



## Martin Cash (22 Sep 2007)

The best rust preventative that I have found is lanolin spray.
It leaves a coating of waxy lanolin on the surface which can be wiped off before use.
In Australia this is marketed in various aerosol cans.
WD-40 is useful for freeing stuck threads etc, but as a rust preventative its effectiveness very poor to useless.
Lanolin if left on the surface for long periods, does get a lttle harder and will attract dirt. This is its only downside. It definitely stops rust from forming.
Regards
MC


----------



## wdartsch (23 Sep 2007)

As for Lanolin,I remember the following from an other topic a while back. 


> Watch out if using Lanolin based products, they can seriously affect bonding of adhesives and finishes if your wood gets contaminated.
> It can become volatile and airborne if atmospheric conditions are conducive and settle on adjacent surfaces.
> Remember sheep wear it to keep out water.
> Can`t recall the author though
> ...


----------



## Mirboo (23 Sep 2007)

Alf":34v86uxv said:


> To be honest I've yet to find anything to beat a nice coat of wax, buffed out.



I agree with Alf on this. My current protectant of choice is the Renaissance Wax that Evergreen mentioned above.

My garage workshop is only about 200 metres from the ocean so salt fallout from the air is a problem. Also, Sydney can get relatively humid in summer, not as humid as parts of Australia that lie further north, but humid none-the-less. The salt and humidity combine to quickly rust tools that I don't take adequate steps to protect.

I've tried WD40, synthetic motor oil (Mobil 1), lanolin spray and Renaissance Wax. 

The WD40 didn't seem to leave much of a protective film and was largely ineffective. The motor oil worked OK but was messy. Lanolin spray also worked but then CHJ warned me in another thread about it's possible effect on glue and finishes. It was also a bit messy, leaving a thick sticky residue on the tool that in most cases needed to be removed prior to using the tool. Finally I moved to wax. It isn't messy, you don't have to wipe it off before using the tool and it works quite well.



Alf":34v86uxv said:


> I'd hazard a guess that the plane sock was counter-productive in your case because it held the moisture close to the plane; in conjunction with some moisture prevention they work okay.



I have found that plane socks do hold moisture close to the plane. At least I think that's what my observations show. Luckily I discovered this before the rust had progressed too far. What I observed was tiny rust spots forming a pattern that matched the weave of the plane socks. I've since stopped using them.

In order to prevent salt fallout landing on my planes and contributing to the rust problem I currently keep them in closed boxes, in most cases the boxes they came in. One day I will make a proper tool chest or cabinet to store them, but until then the boxes suffice. When I've finished using a particular plane I wax it and then slip it back in the box. So far so good.


----------



## Handrubbed (23 Sep 2007)

I had the same shocking experience as the OP in this thread, with rust forming inside my plane socks. After some careful detective work, I discovered that weather conditions had formed a temporary leak in the roof over by plane storage case, and dripping water had dampened the socks. This is ironic, because the same incident might not have caused damage to the planes without the protective socks. All in all, I believe the socks are valuable protection as this is the only incident of any rusting occurring. I too plan to purchase the wax mentioned by Alf, available here in the States through Woodcraft. 

Much careful sanding on granite plates removed the rust. I seriously considered returning the planes to L-N for resurfacing, but did not. The abrasive rubber blocks are excellent for giving a nice original look to the machined surfaces. They are a must in my shop.


----------



## Alf (23 Sep 2007)

Ooo, had another thought. They're not in a metal toolbox are they? That's another potential problem, 'cos of condensation an' all. Wood is Good, which is handy given our predilection for the stuff round here 

BB, I believe the tendency to have The Rusty Fingers of Death is well-known amongst machinists - iirc Phil is a sufferer, which I theorise has sub-consciously drawn him to wooden planes and thus given us an excellent planemaker in our midst. So it may turn out to be a silver lining at some point...? 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Woody Alan (23 Sep 2007)

> Also, is there such a thing as 'rusty fingers' because almost without fail everytime I go to my veritas block it has rust exactly where my fingers were so much so it shows the finger prints! If I leave it too long, I have to resort to taking wire wool to it.


I am afraid it's genetic ,some do some don't. I find my tools at work have a dull finish wheras my mates have a nice polish, he has non acidic skin. Although he swears mine are dull through lack of use :shock: :roll: So if you are "blessed" that way you're stuck I guess.

Alan


----------



## ByronBlack (23 Sep 2007)

Alf, Woody et al - thanks for the info regarding 'rusty finger' I thought I must be doing something wrong, but seems it's just my DNA, it's funny, because I have been doing a lot of research into wooden planes, and to be honest I don't think I would be too upset in getting rid of all my irons in preference to woodies (veritas block excluded - i'll have to try wax on it).


----------



## Philly (23 Sep 2007)

Al- yes you're right. The "Fingers 'O Rust". As you say, no problem with the woodies..... :lol: 
Philly


----------



## Mirboo (23 Sep 2007)

Unfortunately I too suffer from the "rusty fingers of death" so you can add that to the salt air and the humidity that I referred to above. Wax seems to do the trick though. I mentioned in my previous post that I am currently using Renaissance Wax. Well, I've also used U-beaut Traditional Wax and it works fine, it just doesn't buff off as easily as the Renaissance Wax.


----------



## Jez (23 Sep 2007)

Thanks for all the great help 



Alf":1qe0s7td said:


> Ooo, had another thought. They're not in a metal toolbox are they? That's another potential problem, 'cos of condensation an' all. Wood is Good, which is handy given our predilection for the stuff round here



They are actually in a metal tool box... :shock: 

Could you link me to the wax im after on axminster, theres so many types!

Thanks again,
Jez


----------



## Smudger (23 Sep 2007)

You could also put silica gel dessicant bags into the wooden boxes. These are available quite cheaply on eBay.


----------



## Anonymous (23 Sep 2007)

ByronBlack":1md59m0x said:


> I find camelia oil to be a real disappointment. I bought some recently, and had smeared my new set of AI chisels, a couple of weeks had passed and there so much rust on the chisels that I could no longer see the Ashley Iles black branding!!
> 
> Also, is there such a thing as 'rusty fingers' because almost without fail everytime I go to my veritas block it has rust exactly where my fingers were so much so it shows the finger prints! If I leave it too long, I have to resort to taking wire wool to it.
> 
> Yet my older tools don't show any signs of rust even if I leave them out in the open - is 'new' steel that much more susceptible to rust?



Strange BB

I found that after waxing my new iron tablesaw, it was rusty the next day, however, since using camelia oil on it, it has remained rust free ever since. 
I apply a new coat about every monthto 6 weeks.


----------



## ByronBlack (23 Sep 2007)

Tony - which wax are you using? I've been coating my p/t and bandsaw table with liberon wax, and have had a rust free experience for a while - but then I rarely touch the tables with my rusty fingers o' death unlike the handtools.


----------



## Lord Nibbo (23 Sep 2007)

ByronBlack":14sy6ulf said:


> liberon wax



Yes thats the stuff "Liberon Lubrication Wax" I don't even buff it up, just wipe it on and leave it. :lol:


----------



## Alf (23 Sep 2007)

Jez, dunno if anyone else can find a link for Renaissance Wax; I think it'd be preferable but actually I use Liberon's "Black Bison" and it's okay (touch wood). Pretty much my all round tool-care unguent in fact - never use it on projects. :lol: Funnily enough my mum picked up a can of the Renaissance marked down at Lakeland and when I said "hey, that's the stuff everyone swears by for planes" she actually said (and I kid you not) "well you'd better have it then". :shock: Like a total twit I demurred and said "no, no" and now the offer seems to have left the table. Possibly time to try reviving it...

Cheers, Alf


----------



## whiteant (23 Sep 2007)

http://www.conservation-by-design.co.uk ... ies31.html
http://www.picreator.co.uk/articles/3_r ... ce_wax.htm


----------



## llangatwgnedd (23 Sep 2007)

I'm of the opinion that camelia oil is very overrated, tools still rust.

No problems since using Black Bison for hand tools and Liberon Lubrication Wax for the cast iron tables, and still in the same environment.


----------



## AndyT (23 Sep 2007)

There are some useful solutions sold in bike shops for use on chains etc, designed to spray on, which go dry and stable and prevent rust for quite a time. Especially good for getting into crevices.
I've used one called "Pedro's Ice Wax" but any bike shop will have something of the sort. "White Lightning" is another brand that should be pretty easy to find.

Andy


----------



## Harbo (23 Sep 2007)

I have been using camelia oil on tools like chisels and planes for years with no problems - but you have to replenish it often as it seems to evaporate.
For things like saws I use Bison wax - again works fine.

I also make the point of brushing off sawdust and shavings before packing up in case moisture from the wood transmits across?

Rod


----------



## lurker (24 Sep 2007)

Regarding BB's comment about rusty fingers:

Long long long ago when I had hair & no surplus body weight, I went for a job as a service engineer for Bridgeport. 

Passed the interview etc with flying colours but I was rejected due to my rusty hands!

They did me a favour really as my career took a strange turning that lead to a decent job. I don't think Bridgeport UK survived for that long after they showed me the door.

Presumably if that happened today I could sue for gazillions for hurt feelings, but we were 'ard when I were a lad.


----------



## Sgian Dubh (24 Sep 2007)

Use heated toolboxes. Everything else is just far too much fiddling and guddling for me-- and mostly a waste of time in my opinion unless you really, really like to fiddle and guddle. Install low energy lightbulbs; a 7 watt bulb is in this cabinet. This bulb has lasted almost two years so far and cost about £3 to buy. 

Wire up, fit a bulb, and forget it, and you always have a cabinet full of rust free tools. This toolbox was on the US Gulf Coast for about ten years. It's been in cold and damp Britain for four years, and the light bulb trick has been working almost flawlessly for something close to 25 years. Neither the Texas workshop nor my UK one had, or has any form of climate control. 

The only flaws that used to exist with the system as far as I'm concerned was before long lasting low energy bulbs really came in. Regular incandescent bulbs blow too fast leaving the toolbox to get cold and damp. Low energy bulbs virtually eliminate that problem. Slainte.


----------



## ivan (27 Sep 2007)

Phosphoric acid (Jenolite etc, _very_ dilute in coca cola) will eat the rust, with only very limited attack (dulling) on clean steel. If you don't mind the dullness, the phosphate coating inhibits further rust - car bodies are thus dipped before priming.

Daily temperature fluctuations will cause rust and mould if the relative humidity is around 70% or more. Only sure cure is to get a dehumidifier. Here in humid Devon you need one indoors to stop stuff in the back of wardrobes going mouldy - so SWMBO could hardly refuse one for the workshop.


----------



## woodbloke (27 Sep 2007)

My shop is permanetly dehumidified in the summer and on a timer in the winter. Shop is moderately heated in the winter. I find that a thin smear of Camellia Oil at the end of the day works for me, no rust anywhere, tho' I think that heated tool boxes are an excellent idea - Rob


----------



## Harbo (27 Sep 2007)

Dealac have some Dimplex 60watt, 120watt and 240watt heaters starting at £8.90 plus VAT. 
Do not know how effective they will be for keeping the atmosphere dry? 
Should keep the frost off? :lol: 

Rod


----------



## Alex (27 Sep 2007)

Pure brilliance Sgian =D> =D> =D> 
Low energy, pretty safe and cheap. I like it a lot. 
Heating or dehumidifying most of the users here on the forums drafty non insulated sheds/garages would be ludicrous. 

Alex


----------



## Alf (27 Sep 2007)

Back at the beginning of the thread Alf":1jhszu0x said:


> some people swear by having a light bulb permanently lit in their tool storage to keep it warm.


Just think if people actually read stuff how short these threads could be...

Of course unlike dehumidifying the workshop it's absolutely zero benefit in keeping your raw materials in good nick, but that's by the by.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## newt (27 Sep 2007)

I have 2 lathes and in the winter I switch on 60 watt heaters that are below the lathes in a cabinet no rust in 16 years. By the way on the news tonight the present government is going to abolish all incandescent bulbs by 2011, 1st 120watt then 60 and finally 40. Is it worth buying a dozen a week and make a killing in 4 years time. Perhaps not big brother would find out using there infa- red detectors. Actually I am quite keen on reducing energy, but a forty watt bulb in a box is pushing it a bit :idea: . Did you know that due to the power factor the heat from an induction motor is free :lol: , but you do have to pay for the energy that turns the motor  .


----------



## Paul Sellers (27 Sep 2007)

Use Boshield T-9. I use it at the hand tool school during down time and it lasts for months. Works great.
Paul Sellers


----------



## ByronBlack (27 Sep 2007)

Paul, do you know of a stockist for the boshield stuff?


----------



## ivan (29 Sep 2007)

True, it's my garage workshop I dehumidify.

If you have a draughty uninsulated shed, it's worth attending to, if you value your tools. Condensation comes with rapid temperature change, so our garden shed (the usual shiplap/weatherboard affair) got a stirling board roof and wall lining with some glass wool in the cavity. Although the door is hardly draughtproof, fairly modest care keeps mowers, strimmer, chainsaw and other tools corrosion free. If you can't insulate the whole shed, be kind to just the toolbox. A modest insulated toolcabinet might be economically warmed by one or two of those plug-in air fresheners (minus pongy bottle of jollop) which vaporise their smelly oils with gentle heat. The rating's on the back, usually 2 or 3 watts.


----------



## Handrubbed (2 Oct 2007)

I have just sent off an email to L-N regarding a second instance of rust forming inside one of their plane socks. This time there is no foreign source of moisture and the other planes in the closed cabinet were not effected. There definitely seems to be some connection to these socks and some sort of moisture-wicking action. I await their reply and will forward here. I mentioned that there had been some forum discussion but did not specify this forum. I should have there answer in a few days. Meanwhile, I have some socks for sale! :roll:


----------



## TonyW (2 Oct 2007)

Handrubbed":czh2t5sn said:


> I have just sent off an email to L-N regarding a second instance of rust forming inside one of their plane socks. This time there is no foreign source of moisture and the other planes in the closed cabinet were not effected. There definitely seems to be some connection to these socks and some sort of moisture-wicking action. ... :roll:


Looking at ways to prevent rust on my own tools - just a thought and not based on personal experience:
The LN socks are I believe made of cloth impregnated with some sort of silicon. Do you think it possible that the bags may be so well protected with silicon that this is preventing air circulating - akin to putting the plane in a plastic bag. The fact that your other planes in the cabinet ok suggest that this may be the case. If this is so and you still want to use the socks could you put a bag of silica gell in with the plane to help suck up any moisture?
Hope you find the solution to combat the dreaded rust.

Cheers  
Tony


----------



## Handrubbed (3 Oct 2007)

Well, I believe Tony W has got it right. According to the spokemans for L-N, plane socks are meant for short term storage and protection from abrasion in transport. In certain conditions (mine apparently), the socks prevent air circulation and may actually elevate the moisture levels, causing rust. I think this is what happened in my tool cabinet.

I am going to use Boeshield during storage and forget the socks. Might to the same for my feet! :wink:


----------



## mr (3 Oct 2007)

ByronBlack":1khs2d5i said:


> Paul, do you know of a stockist for the boshield stuff?



http://www.boeshield.nl/engels/boeshieldnlframe.htm is the closest to the UK that I've managed to find. 
Cheers Mike [/url]


----------



## tnimble (4 Oct 2007)

mr":2y097rvl said:


> ByronBlack":2y097rvl said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, do you know of a stockist for the boshield stuff?
> ...



Indeed the only importer and reseller in europe, besides a few bike shops that resell some boeshield. But why not get it from them directly.


----------



## ByronBlack (4 Oct 2007)

Mike, thanks for the link.


----------



## Noel (4 Oct 2007)

I've often seen T9 in Chandlers and boat supply shops. Used to be a supplier in Southampton (surprisingly) but I've lost their details. If you look hard enough there's plenty of people that stock it.
Also there was someone in Twickenham that stocked it too.


----------

