# Sharpening and Setting Spokeshave Blades



## Orcamesh (3 Sep 2010)

I have a Lie-Nielsen small bronze spokeshave and as with most s/shaves the blade is pretty short and fiddly to sharpen. 

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SBS

I wondered if anyone could enlighten me as to how best to sharpen it? I have a Tormek but it seems the jigs are not really cutout for this size of blade. I also have Jap waterstones so I guess these are probably the best bet. I just wondered how others sharpened them and if there was a best way (it maybe that it is a personal choice)?

On top of this I have never had a great deal of luck with spokeshaves in terms of setting the blade up properly in the handle. Maybe it's just me! Then in use I find it pretty tricky to get a decent shaving off the tool. I am no hand tool expert so I am probably doing something dopey! So if anyone has any hints or tips that would be great?

cheers
Steve


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## Alf (3 Sep 2010)

Steve, I do mine freehand, but I imagine something like the small blade holder from Veritas could be used, for which they give instructions to make your own in the manual for the Low Angle Spokeshave (under "Instr"). Basically anything that effectively lengthens the blade so it can be held in a jig should work. I recall seeing a suggestion to use the iron and cap iron from a bench plane to hold short blades, for instance.

Setting the blade, well many users deliberately tilt the iron so you get a deeper cut at one side of the shave and a finer one at the other. That's usually done by eye, and is obviously of no use if you want the full width of cut. To get an even fine cut, again either sight along the sole and do it by eye; use a paper or thing metal shim on the front of the sole; or put the sole on a flat block of wood and slightly press the blade into it before tightening it up. To get a decent shaving remember to make the cut downhill. Mainly it's just practice, playing about with it until you get comfortable. After all, it's really a plane with a ridiculously short sole - it's asking to tip into the work and generally misbehave, so you need to get used to counteracting that. Get comfortable with it on edges, rounding a stick or whathaveyou; smoothing the full width of a 3/4" edge, as an example, still gives me the heebie jeebies. Actually I'd use a wooden spokeshave for that... 8-[


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## woodbloke (3 Sep 2010)

Tricky and difficult things to sharpen and hone *consistently*. Freehand honing with the blade held in a simple holder is the easiest way but with the inevitable danger of 'rounding' over the bevels and losing the definition. Veritas do a small blade holder which is quite good (but needs to be used with the MK I or II guide) I use the Kell III guide with a special acrylic adapter I made to hold the blades (Veritas 'shaves) square to the honing medium. I don't have any problem in honing the blades at the correct angle every time...works for me :wink: - Rob


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## Jacob (3 Sep 2010)

Blade holder essential - basically a slot in a piece of scrap, no point in buying one!







Rob is right about freehand risk of rounding over - so you round under instead; i.e. dip as you go.

Easiest adjustment is on the Stanley 151 with double adjuster. No point in getting any other.


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## Orcamesh (3 Sep 2010)

Thanks very much for all your replies, very helpful. The blade holder is a great idea and I was wondering how to do this myself last night when I was standing there looking into oblivion!  It occurred to me when I was looking at the Tormek because I clearly couldnt obtain the required angle for the blade due to its short length. I wonder whether the makers of spokeshaves have considered making a long blade version (maybe they already have and I am just unaware of it?)? 

I had heard of setting the blade at a slight angle to the mouth but no matter what I did I couldn't get a decent shaving off it, and I just think it is due to my lack of expertise in the sharpening department. I have only recently been watching David Charlesworths DVD and been replicating the Jap waterstone technique at home, and the results on my hand planes are incredible. So I needed the spokeshave the other day and as normal in my life I dont deal with something until I need it!  

I can see that it is going to be fun getting to know it and time will tell as to whether I master it, but I'm sure I will... I agree Rob that consistency is going to be difficult to achieve, but if there is a will there is a way! I think freehand honing is going to be left to the experts, thanks for the advice! I will start with a jig of some sort and progress from there. Looks like I need to make an extension device now. 

What micro bevel do you use, 25 degrees? Or something else? 

Mr G - I love your blade holder, very utilitarian! But I guess as long as it does the job that's all that counts! :lol: 

Thanks all
Steve


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

Hawk Moth":28rd92gt said:


> .... I think freehand honing is going to be left to the experts, .....


A common delusion. 
The Tormek seems to be your problem. Freehand is actually much easier (and quicker, cheaper), I don't know why it has gone so much out of fashion.
If you must use power, a belt sander (freehand with a blade holder) would be better than the tormek .

An axminster catalogue supplement recently arrived. It has 4 pages of tormek add ons. If it needs so many accessories it can't be much bl***dy use in the first place!


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## Alf (4 Sep 2010)

Hawk Moth":1wjiow2x said:


> What micro bevel do you use, 25 degrees? Or something else?


It's just a plane blade when all's said and done - 25° grinding angle, 30° honing. Or near as. If you think those spokeshave irons are a problem, you want to try one from a traditional wooden shave; short blade _and_ sticking-up posts. Lovely. Nothing like it to force you into trying freehand honing. :lol:


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

Alf":otg89dyx said:


> Hawk Moth":otg89dyx said:
> 
> 
> > What micro bevel do you use, 25 degrees? Or something else?
> ...


Spokeshaves, esp the trad pattern, and other blades are just too _thin_ to apply to a grinding machine. You _have _to freehand to avoid spoiling them.


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## woodbloke (4 Sep 2010)

HW, herewith a few pics a 'shave blade holder which I made for Waka:


























It should be fairly easy to understand from the pics how to go about making it. PM sent by the way regarding another _issue_ :wink: - Rob


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

woodbloke":3g3zflnw said:


> .....
> It should be fairly easy to understand from the pics how to go about making it.


What does it do that my twiglet holder (see above) doesn't do? :lol:


> PM sent by the way regarding another _issue_ :wink: - Rob


 It's OK Rob feel free to disagree/discuss in public - that's what forums are fora!


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## Orcamesh (4 Sep 2010)

Alf - thanks for your further advice, much appreciated as always. I will give freehand honing a go (honest) and I have in the past, but I am not so good at maintaining a consistent angle, but then it is probably just practice practice and more practice.  So I tend to use jigs "at the mo" as my further comments explain...

Mr G - believing that freehand honing should be left to the experts maybe my common delusion, but having a Tormek or any other machine for sharpening is not a problem, well not for me anyway. 

It is obvious that it is cheaper to freehand hone, but would you freehand hone lathe gouges or P/T blades, I don't think so?! You would at least have a grindstone (wet or dry), and this was the reason I went for the Tormek in the first place and as someone sold it to me second hand it wasn't such a costly jump anyhow. Anyway, grindstones have been around for centuries, especially water based grindstones so just because the Tormek has a trade name does not make it a 20th/21st century gadget, so even Tormeks are not necessarily in fashion! :lol: 

So given that I have a Tormek in my possession already, it is quite logical that I might even use it for flat blades too! It has done fine for many other types of flat blade.

So now that I have tried the spokeshave on the Tormek, which I have soon come to realise is not a good option, then I turn to my Jap waterstones which I use for my hand planes. But I still wouldn't start freehand and prefer to use a honing guide (that's my preferred choice), like many other people, I do not spend every hour of every day in my workshop. But hey life is full of choices and we all have to make them based on cost, time and quality. For me I don't have time on my side so I tend to spend my hard earned on quality to enable me to get the job done quickly and as accurately as possible (using jigs where necessary), but not all my jigs are bought and many are homemade. It's horses for courses as far as I am concerned.

Rob - thanks for your fantastic photos of your holder, I will definitely have a go at making one of these! Given that I have the Jap waterstones and a honing guide I think this is the best option for me and makes perfect sense.


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## Alf (4 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1bg983pm said:


> woodbloke":1bg983pm said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...


Fit in a honing guide.


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## Modernist (4 Sep 2010)

If you really want to use the Tormek why not just use the flat honing table as a guide then hone then final edge quickly by hand on an oil/waterstone.

One other point which has not be mentioned is that if you skew the shave in use it helps to prevent chatter as it effectively lengthens the bed.


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

Hawk Moth":clgih5iv said:


> ....would you freehand hone lathe gouges


yes - little and often, then reshape with a grinder every now and then, if necessary


> or P/T blades,


yes - just to freshen them up a bit, a few times before sending them off to the saw doctor


> .....Anyway, grindstones have been around for centuries, especially water based grindstones..... ....


I've nothing against grindstones! But a lot of the time freehand honing on an oil stone is the best way, and can save you a lot of bother


Alf":clgih5iv said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":clgih5iv said:
> 
> 
> > ...What does it do that my twiglet holder (see above) doesn't do? :lol:
> ...


Yebbut - apart from fitting in a honing guide?
Could be done I'm sure, with some more bits of twig, but I'm not going to bother.


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## Alf (4 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":2mljgmzk said:


> Alf":2mljgmzk said:
> 
> 
> > Mr G Rimsdale":2mljgmzk said:
> ...


Apart from that, dunno - it's quite a major factor though, in fairness. For some people. What else... Might be less inclined to let the iron wriggle from side to side? Presumably at some stage the cleft in your stick will become loose and you'll have to make another; Rob won't? Don't look at me, I hold the damn things in my fingers - can't help you wusses who need holders to sort out who's using the best version... :wink:


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

Alf":1kvwy2if said:


> .... I hold the damn things in my fingers - can't help you wusses who need holders ....


Not wussiness at all. You get more pressure and control with a holder so it's quicker. Less obviously and more importantly - more pressure means you can move down the grit sizes for a finer finish.


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## Alf (4 Sep 2010)

Ah, so a jig that _I_ find superfluous has a place because _you_ find it helpful? See where I'm going with this...? Yep, here I go:

There you go, folks - next time Jacob tut-tuts at you for using a honing guide, just observe that it gives _you_ more pressure and control and thus it's quicker. :wink:

No, no, please, no applause. He won't take any notice anyway. :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (4 Sep 2010)

=D> =D> :lol:


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

Alf":33bqww24 said:


> Ah, so a jig that _I_ find superfluous has a place because _you_ find it helpful? See where I'm going with this...? Yep, here I go:
> 
> There you go, folks - next time Jacob tut-tuts at you for using a honing guide, just observe that it gives _you_ more pressure and control and thus it's quicker. :wink:
> 
> No, no, please, no applause. He won't take any notice anyway. :lol:


Can't catch me out that easily!
Not a guide, or a jig, just handle or holding device for _freehand_ honing.
Chisels already have them so nothing needed. But bare metal blades have not - and the smaller they are the harder they are to hold.
You make your own, from scraps, in minutes.
Read all about it here
The markII version is really useful and I use it a lot. Just a length of scrap, a hole and a bolt (and a nicely turned knob on the deluxe version)


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## Paul Chapman (4 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":370x789v said:


> Not a guide, or a jig, just handle or holding device for _freehand_ honing.


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## Alf (5 Sep 2010)

Jacob, please mate, stop digging and walk away before Paul ruptures something from laughing so hard. :lol:


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## Orcamesh (5 Sep 2010)

Well I'm sorry to see this thread getting so out of shape, as far as I am concerned it's fine to give opinions on techniques whether I or others feel that the given opinion is correct or not. I don't think we should be forcing opinions though and I feel that it should not become a battle, so have your say and leave it at that. After all, as I said earlier we all make choices in life and invariably they will be different and selected for different reasons. That's what makes the world such an interesting place! So I think it is fair to say that we have now seen all the various methods of sharpening (or at least a good selection) a spokeshave blade, so thanks for your input.

Now to the progress in my workshop...

I used my Jap waterstones to hone by hand (yes, you see I did give it a go!) a micro bevel of some ~25 degrees, basically some random angle less than 30 degrees! The secondary bevel was about 1mm. The setting of the blade in the spokeshave was found to be critical and eventually I found the right depth and just played around with a scrap piece of walnut as you can see below...












So thanks to all your input, and I will try out a blade holder for my honing guide at some point and assess whether this is easier and/or more repeatable.

cheers
Steve


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## Jacob (5 Sep 2010)

Hawk Moth":6nmdssg8 said:


> .....
> I used my Jap waterstones to hone by hand (yes, you see I did give it a go!) a micro bevel of some ~25 degrees, basically some random angle less than 30 degrees......


Well done!
One advantage of freehand honing is that primary, secondary bevels are things of the past. You just do it as you said _basically some random angle less than 30 degrees!_ but aim to start the forwards stroke _at_ 30 as near as you can get, but finish at some random angle less than. This gives a rounded-_under_ bevel and an edge at about 30.

PS I wouldn't keep going on about it and courting controversy if it wasn't for the fact that it works really well. Each to his own!


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## GazPal (8 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":37gopmwr said:


> Well done!
> One advantage of freehand honing is that primary, secondary bevels are things of the past. You just do it as you said _basically some random angle less than 30 degrees!_ but aim to start the forwards stroke _at_ 30 as near as you can get, but finish at some random angle less than. This gives a rounded-_under_ bevel and an edge at about 30.
> 
> PS I wouldn't keep going on about it and courting controversy if it wasn't for the fact that it works really well. Each to his own!



I couldn't agree more in terms of honing by hand/eye and apple seed bevels. I normally use guides for grinding/squaring blades and hone free hand. Practise makes almost perfect, or at least gets you a sharp edge when all is said and done.


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## Jacob (8 Sep 2010)

GazPal":3r5hv2v3 said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":3r5hv2v3 said:
> 
> 
> > Well done!
> ...


I had to look up "apple seed bevel". It's a knife enthusiasts term it seems.
What I get with "rounding under" is something like this:






Has a sharp 30º edge and a single bevel rounded _under_ 30º at all points.

It stays like that and never needs grinding or otherwise reshaping, once you get the hang of "the dip".


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## GazPal (8 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1kdbfcep said:


> I had to look up "apple seed bevel". It's a knife enthusiasts term it seems.
> What I get with "rounding under" is something like this:
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, apple seed bevel is used to describe the non flat or hollow ground edge contours of double edged knives and Japanese swords, but also describes the same cross (Half) section results when single edges are honed in the manner your prescribe. Place two similarly honed blades back to back and you'll see the apple seed geometry. 

The end result when honing to an apple seed geometry is a more resilient blade due to the fact there's more metal behind the cutting edge. :wink:


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## Jacob (8 Sep 2010)

GazPal":xm2ki5t7 said:


> ......
> The end result when honing to an apple seed geometry is a more resilient blade due to the fact there's more metal behind the cutting edge. :wink:


Exactly. And it's much easier than trying for a flat bevel - as long as you round _under_ and not _over_.
So my _convex_ or _rounded_ is actually a _half apple seed_ bevel. I'll try it for size!


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":3vzdorn7 said:


> GazPal":3vzdorn7 said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



You already are - it's just a different name.

I'd stay away from knife forums if I were you - they don't half spend a lot of time discussing complex sharpening techniques.

You wouldn't like it ;-)

BugBear


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2010)

bugbear":3pgef29d said:


> ..
> I'd stay away from knife forums if I were you - they don't half spend a lot of time discussing complex sharpening techniques..


I see what you mean. But what else can you do with knives except sharpen and polish? You can't go around stabbing things.
Unlike woodwork tools which can be useful - if you don't spend too much time sharpening them and giving them scalpel-like edges which only last seconds!


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## GazPal (9 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":zqzw3igi said:


> scalpel-like edges which only last seconds!



This is the crux of the matter. Sharpen for a super clean shave and re-sharpen frequently, or sharpen for a working and resilient edge and sharpen less frequently.

I'd not gotten the "apple seed" edge term from knife forums, but did note the similarities between the methods I use for plane iron and chisel sharpening in comparison to felling axe, chopping axe and side axe well before this internet thingy came about. :idea:


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## jimi43 (9 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":2lgwjqlh said:


> bugbear":2lgwjqlh said:
> 
> 
> > ..
> ...



You could always take up whittling.

Jim


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2010)

jimi43":1v3n56yh said:



> Mr G Rimsdale":1v3n56yh said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":1v3n56yh said:
> ...


So that's what they all do. I bet they are s**t hot on pencil sharpening too!


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## GazPal (10 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":2tdp3quq said:


> So that's what they all do. I bet they are s**t hot on pencil sharpening too!



They use pen knives while we use chisels. :lol: 

One aspect regarding Japanese sharpening technique is the way they alternate sharpening direction e.g. straight, diagonal (Left), diagonal (Right) then straight again with each successive grit. The practice of alternating direction removes the scratches/furrows caused by previous grits while shortening sharpening time and typically produces a much keener edge with the final grit. 

Much the same as using the figure of eight honing technique when working a blade/iron across a sharpening stone. :wink:


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## LuptonM (10 Sep 2010)

Is it that you don't have enough blade length to get the angle u want with the honing guide? If so you could might be able to put the wheels of the honing guide on a lower surface than the sharpening surface to aquire a the angle at a lower blade projection


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