# Hello from Felder



## Whitesnake (9 Aug 2010)

Hi everyone. 

My name is Dave Whiteside. 

I have met many forum members over the years whilst working at various shows. I was the Leigh demonstrator, amongst other things for Brimarc. 

I have recently joined Felder UK (in April) and would like to make myself available for any enquires or questions anyone may have. Although I am new to this product, I am learning quickly and will endeavor to find an answer to a question (although there's no guarantee it will be right.:wink. 

I look forward to meeting everyone again at the Harrogate show where we will have a stand. Please come over and say hello. 

I have followed the forum (mostly as a lurker!) for many years and thought now was the time to get involved. 

See you soon 

Dave


----------



## matthewwh (9 Aug 2010)

Hi Dave, 

Welcome to the forum! 

I'm sure theres a good number of Felder fans on here who will warmly welcome your input.


----------



## gardenshed (9 Aug 2010)

matthewwh":lueb6gix said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> I'm sure theres a good number of Felder fans on here who will warmly welcome your input.



And their critics 






..


----------



## Whitesnake (9 Aug 2010)

Thanks Guys

You rarely get one without the other!

I'll try and help best I can either way.

Cheers


----------



## Max Power (9 Aug 2010)

Hi Dave , I'm one of the fans. Will you be at W10


----------



## Whitesnake (9 Aug 2010)

Hello Alan 

Yes we will be at W10. We have a large stand displaying various machinery in the Hammer, Felder and Format 4 ranges. 

Come over and say hello if you make it


----------



## Chippyjoe (9 Aug 2010)

Hi Dave,
and welcome to the forum.

Was down at Milton Keynes last week picking up my AF22 dust extractor.
Looks a serious bit of kit,and at 70kgs no lightweight!

Plumbing it in today,need to change the 16 amp breaker to a 20 amp and then I'm away.
Look forward to meeting you in the future,and all the best in your new job.

Mark.


----------



## devonwoody (10 Aug 2010)

Hi. Dave, which bandsaw blades do you recommend?


----------



## Whitesnake (10 Aug 2010)

Hi

As regards band saw blades, I have to be honest and say that although I use the band saws it is not something I do regularly or for very long. You can see who I work for and they do blades but why you should use them or not, is not something I could comment on because I have little or no experience of other blades. I am sure that someone on the forum will have more experience than me and could recommend a brand and why.


----------



## 9fingers (10 Aug 2010)

I get all my blades now from Ian at Tuff Saws.

His service is excellent and will supply blades quickly according to your application. His advice is free and very helpful.

mailto:[email protected]

website coming soon http://www.tuffsaws.co.uk/

ebay shop: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/tuff-saws?_rdc=1

Bob

No commercial connection other than a very satisfied customer.


----------



## jimi43 (10 Aug 2010)

Watcha Dave!!

Any cheap reject F600s come you way let me know! :mrgreen: 

I second the thumbs up for Tuffsaw blades...that reminds me...I must get a fine one.

Jim


----------



## devonwoody (10 Aug 2010)

Hi. Jim, I typed in F600 at Felder website and nothing, what do you know that felder dont?


----------



## jimi43 (10 Aug 2010)

devonwoody":3hlrocov said:


> Hi. Jim, I typed in F600 at Felder website and nothing, what do you know that felder dont?



Ooops...FB600







Missed the "B"

I like the look of that one!

Jim


----------



## jeffinfrance (10 Aug 2010)

hello dave,

if you've been lurking, you may already know about my problems.

first an update.

the third felder technician left yesterday evening after spending another 7 hours tweaking my cf741sp.

it looks ok. dont know how good it is until i do some work on it next week, but the difference in height from the slider to the table is tighter than a gnats chuff and the same along its length.

the table is undulating slightly due apparantly to the spindle moulder hanging off it and nothing can be done about this. a thicker table would have solved this problem at the factory i believe. 

however, i am not left problem free. i can now no longer move my machine (essential if i want to work on stuff longer than three metres) until i have the time and money to completely rescreed my shop floor. the only way the technician could sort the slider, was to untwist the machine and make it absolutely flat using an engineers level, (very expensive and accurate bit of kit). i defy any builder to get a concrete floor that level without spending thousands and i was certainly never advised it would be necessary.

i ask you this dave:

why do your combination machines not come with a warning that they are notoriously difficult to set up and not reccomended for professional shops where separates would be much more useful.

welcome to the forum.

jeff


----------



## custard (10 Aug 2010)

jeffinfrance":zhcsywmx said:


> hello dave,
> 
> why do your combination machines not come with a warning that they are notoriously difficult to set up and not reccomended for professional shops where separates would be much more useful.



This is alarming. 

I was trying to choose between the Felder 531 and Felder 741 combination machines, with a key criteria being which would be the easiest/most practical to wheel. But with either choice "wheelability" would be absolutely essential in my workshop to allow machining larger pieces.

I seem to remember that one of the Hammer promotional videos shows a combination being wheeled on a wooden floor before being used, so if a Hammer can perform I thought a Felder would certainly be okay, as long as the extra weight was manageable. But your post has made me realise that I'll have to reconsider that assumption.

Do Felder have any standards for floor flatness to allow accurate work _and_ wheelability with their combination machines?


----------



## jeffinfrance (10 Aug 2010)

hi custard,

if i had the decision to make again, i would have gone for fixed separates and made my shop bigger.

you owe it to yourself to exhaust this option before you settle for a combi.

that said, the felder is the mutts nuts when set up right, but every time you move it, to get the same accuracy, you will need to re-check everything is flat and level as the fixings between the planer and spindle table are "NOT strong enough to prevent movement". felder technicians own words. granted, on an absolutely flat and level floor, movement would probably be undetectable. but worth checking with an engineers level.

it all depends on the results you're after. personally, i'd rather not need sandpaper.

jeff


----------



## moz (10 Aug 2010)

Hi Jeff, I wrote in response to earlier problems you were having but, receiving no response, assumed you had sorted everything. 

The problem with the slider, in many cases I suspect, is a failure to check the cast iron table for flatness before starting. In my own case, I watched during a succession of visits by a couple of engineers as they came out in a cold sweat, juggling one setting after another and getting not very far. I put up with the best they could manage for over a year before getting down to it myself. The cast iron top was twisted hence the tail-chasing exercise of previous months. After adjusting this out with the mounting bolts, it was a doddle to flatten the slider to this. How this had escaped Felder's technicians I don't know but it seems they expect these machines to arrive in a better state than they actually do and make a number of unhelpful assumptions. 

You mention a sag around the spindle. Clearly, cutting a big hole in the top doesn't help and creates a weak spot between the saw and spindle. I don't know if you are aware but there is a bracket welded to the framework which extends underneath this weak spot and which holds a jacking screw which can be used to dial out most of the sag. Aplologies if you already know this, or if you have an older model which doesn't have this addition.

I use my universal daily and wouldn't like anyone considering one to be put off the idea because of unfavourable comments in this thread. They still make the best universals. All these machines need very careful setting up to get the best out of them and universals are no better or worse than separates in that sense. I would say, though, that being so complex, they really need much more time allocated for commissioning than is actually the case and I'm sure this would save a lot of time in the long run.

John


----------



## jeffinfrance (10 Aug 2010)

you've hit the nail on the head with the setup. my machine was twisted. made that clear in my message.

what i'm saying, is that.....if you have the space, or can make the space, go for separates.

it doesn't matter how good a combi it is.

if you havn't, make sure that your floor is absolutely flat and level or hope you never have to move it.

combination machines are a compromise.

6 months after delivery, i finally (i hope, havn't had a chance to work with it after the most recent adjustments) have a machine i am reasonably happy with. but i cant move it around until i have relaid a new floor surface.

combi machines are not the small workshop panacea i was led to believe.

i would have saved much time and money, with a more practical workshop thrown in if i had known this.

jeff


----------



## moz (10 Aug 2010)

jeffinfrance":39095qht said:


> combi machines are not the small workshop panacea i was led to believe.



This is an argument which runs and runs. They suit some people and not others. I've worked in a couple of workshops with every manner of separate machine and any efficiency advantage was compleletely absorbed (and then some) by the lack of space to move work around. That's the choice I made. I value my space now and never have to struggle with even the largest of pieces. Having to rearrange the room takes far longer than changing my universal from sawing to planing, etc. Assuming unlimited space, separates are better of course and the choice of manufacturer widens considerably.

Anyway, glad you got it sorted eventually and you may learn to love that machine when it's all behind you.

John


----------



## custard (10 Aug 2010)

John, do you move your Felder around?


----------



## Corset (10 Aug 2010)

Just like to say I have a hammer Saw spindle moulder and I am very happy with it. It fits my garage very nicely and I don't have many complaints except that the rip fence is a bit temperamental. I would recommend them to anyone and I think they are good value. I move mine a fair bit and it seems ok but maybe I have lower expectations of accuracy. 
That said my experience with felder has been a bit odd. I get a ring every couple of months or so to see if I want to buy anything which is nice I guess but I am always a bit confused as to why the postage is so expensive for items. I am after a couple of dust extraction bits but I am reluctant to order from felder as I know the price will be ok but then the postage will double it. Plus when I have ordered stuff it takes a looong time to arrive.
Plus some of the extras are really confusing on the website i really want to know what this does 
https://shop.felder-gruppe.at/fgroup/shop_category.php?region=gb-en&real_shop_cuid=221 that is hammer trimming equipment and looks like some big plastic strips. It may be just what I need but i cannot tell from the site. I can only guess at what else I missing out on.
I welcome any comments from felder on that as surely that would be a simple thing to look at. We have just changed couriers at work and that has made a lot of difference to cost.


----------



## ProShop (10 Aug 2010)

jeffinfrance":1z5tw32p said:


> why do your combination machines not come with a warning that they are notoriously difficult to set up and not reccomended for professional shops where separates would be much more useful.
> 
> welcome to the forum.
> 
> jeff


Why would a combi machine not be recommended for a professional shop, Robert Inghams had one for years and He's a perfectionist.
And why should they come with a warning they are difficult to set up. I had one and had no trouble setting mine up. 

My issue with Felder is their rubbish customer service and inability to keep decent staff for any reasonable length of time.


----------



## custard (11 Aug 2010)

jeff[/quote]Why would a combi machine not be recommended for a professional shop, Robert Inghams had one for years and He's a perfectionist.
And why should they come with a warning they are difficult to set up. I had one and had no trouble setting mine up. 

My issue with Felder is their rubbish customer service and inability to keep decent staff for any reasonable length of time.[/quote]

Looking at Robert Ingham's workshop I doubt he has to move his Felder, and that's one of the issues here, will their combinations retain accuracy after moving? I asked earlier if Felder have any guidelines for how level a floor needs to be, but no answer.


----------



## moz (11 Aug 2010)

Hi Custard,

No I don't have to move mine around so can't comment on that though I did used to have a BF6-31 with mobility kit which was moved constantly without problems. That was a different machine of course with a one piece chassis. It could explain why there seems to be a lot of problems setting up after most of it should have been done at the factory. I certainly wouldn't risk moving mine now I have it working well.

John


----------



## Corset (11 Aug 2010)

Have we made him run away?? :?


----------



## 9fingers (11 Aug 2010)

I would think you possibly have :lol: 

My background is in metal working machinery and you certainly would not dream of moving a machine and not running a rule over it to see if it needed setting up after.

With modern sheet metal fabricated chassis and thin cast iron tables it is no surprise to me that adjustments are necessary. 

Bob


----------



## ProShop (11 Aug 2010)

> custard":26j3f1or said:
> 
> 
> > jeff
> ...





> Looking at Robert Ingham's workshop I doubt he has to move his Felder, and that's one of the issues here, will their combinations retain accuracy after moving? I asked earlier if Felder have any guidelines for how level a floor needs to be, but no answer.



I had mine for over 2 years and used on an ordinary concrete garage floor with out any problems. It's new owner has had it for nearly 3 years now and says it still as accurate as when it was delivered (and he is very very fussy). 

FWIW, the spec Felder set for their machines has changed in the last couple of years or so and the tolerances etc are not as good as they used to be, nor is the installation spec as keen as it was.

I know a couple of other combi owners with the Felder wheel kits and they use them on an ordinary concrete floor without any issues.

You said in your post that the machine was not suitable for a professional workshop, but it clearly is imho.


----------



## Whitesnake (11 Aug 2010)

Hi guys

Sorry for the delay.

Jeff: Sorry to hear about your problem. Clearly I cannot comment on what has been done/said as I do not know the full history of your dealings with Felder France. I appreciate this has been an ongoing problem for you and my only comment would be that it seems to be an isolated issue. In my short time at Felder I have not had or heard of similar problems. They are precision machines that have been designed with moving them in mind which is why there is wheel kits available. As far as a perfectly level floor goes, I was not told this was the case in the training at the factory and after discussing it with the technicians, they also do not feel this is necessary. Clearly a level surface is needed but to what extent I cannot say. As you say, your machine was twisted and again this is a rarity

The felder combi machines are professional quality and are sold into many business that depend on the machine for the accuracy and ease of use. They clearly offer a benefit in space saving over separates but will never replace them fully. I personally have sold combis to people that are very happy with them and some are on here saying so.

I can only apologise on behalf of Felder and hope that this is sorted for you


----------



## Corset (11 Aug 2010)

Postage?? I would like to order some stuff any chance of a deal??


----------



## moz (11 Aug 2010)

Hi Dave and welcome.

Just an observation that I'm sure has already been made many times. I do think its reasonable for you to have a list of specs allowing for reasonable tolerances. The result of not doing this would be, of course, many new owners standing over the engineer expecting everything to be adjusted within a thou or less. I expect your engineers often hear unreasonable expectations which cannot be met within even a generous timescale allowed for commissioning (which isn't allowed for in my experience). However, you will find that most owners, myself included, are willing to put in the extra time to go well beyond factory tolerances. This job is made difficult by the fact that Felder omit a huge amount of such information from the manual and do not make it available in any other form. This leaves a network of enthusiasts on the owner's group, for example, left to help each other, figuring much of it out for themselves. Often, we are left in a position where the information isn't available to do the job ourselves and yet Felder are unable to resolve things within a reasonable time either. I'm sure both Jeff and myself would have been working effectively much more quickly if given the tools to at least analyse and possibly fix some problems saving everyone time. Felder make some great products but this is yet another example of the stubborn and senseless intransigence of the Austrian owners. What is the problem with giving us the information? 

John


----------



## Tim Nott (11 Aug 2010)

The distortion when moving the thing around on a less- than-perfect floor seems a gross manufactuting/design flaw. We've got a Robland combi - no room for separates - and we use it full time and move it around a lot without problems


----------



## ProShop (11 Aug 2010)

moz":3eqmu5ps said:


> Felder make some great products but this is yet another example of the stubborn and senseless intransigence of the Austrian owners. What is the problem with giving us the information?
> 
> John



The info is out there, just go and get it.


----------



## ondablade (11 Aug 2010)

Seems to me that there's a big difference between inaccuracies as a result of moving a machine on a not so level floor, and manufacturing and/or factory set up errors.

TBH I doubt there's a machine made that IF the need is precise set up will stay in adjustment when moved on a non level floor. 

It's also very much a matter of the size of the machine, and in particular of the length of the slider.

On the first - it's not just a case of 'beefing up'. This will add weight which will increase the tendency to twist/distort almost as fast as it adds stiffness. 

On the second - it's one thing moving a cabinet saw around the place and not experiencing problems, but realistically i don't know how a 2.5 or 3m long sliding table saw can be expected to be stiff enough to stay flat enough to hold tight tolerances on an out of flat floor.

Finally as before on service. It's not cheap to fly technicians around Europe, and put them up in hotels. So as before it's not too surprising that the Felder/Hammer strategy is to try to set it up right at factory, and to after that be slow to respond.

The money and the margins are simply not in machines at that sort of money to support high on site FOC service levels.

Hopefully they are getting it right in the factory, because they do trade heavily on their reputation for precision.

Another thought. I doubt they would do it because it wouldn't be well received, and would be hard to administer, but actually it wouldn't in principle be unreasonable to to bill the customer for site visits to rectify problems caused by out of flat floors etc - while not charging for rectification of factory induced problems.

That's provided as has been said that the manual is clear on the subject - there's probably a very strong argument too for a much more comprehensively written manual.

Anyway. Just a personal view.

A final thought. Depending on how much moving is needed maybe there's no need to have a totally accurate floor. I wonder would it be possible to just arrange for four or whatever number of carefully levelled (or even adjustable) pads would be needed for the feet at maybe two locations in the shop? Then drop the machine on the second spot when needed. I still doubt they could be got level enough to permit moving a big machine without throwing it out a bit, mind you....


----------



## jasonB (11 Aug 2010)

Corset":2v8p4ol0 said:


> Plus some of the extras are really confusing on the website i really want to know what this does
> https://shop.felder-gruppe.at/fgroup/shop_category.php?region=gb-en&real_shop_cuid=221 that is hammer trimming equipment and looks like some big plastic strips.



Its used to allow straightening of long boards if you don't have the long sliding table. Have a look at the C3-31 video about 3.45 in

http://www.ukhammer.co.uk/gb-en/video/hammer-c3-31.html

I've had a combi for about 12yrs and regularly move it about and don't have setup problems after moving it, just on a screeded floor.

Jason


----------



## moz (11 Aug 2010)

ProShop":2yo8b2td said:


> moz":2yo8b2td said:
> 
> 
> > Felder make some great products but this is yet another example of the stubborn and senseless intransigence of the Austrian owners. What is the problem with giving us the information?
> ...



My question was for Dave but thanks for trying to help.

John


----------



## ProShop (11 Aug 2010)

I really can't see why Felder should give out the info your suggesting, after all they're in the market to sell, service, maintain, install the machines they manufacture. 

Lots of other companies don't produce this info either, and why should they.

Like I said the info is out there for anyone who wants to do it themselves.

I agree with your other point about slow response, as I've mentioned before customer service is poor to say the least.


----------



## Corset (11 Aug 2010)

Nope, I am dense its official! still don't get what the plastic bit does?
Is it a like a jig strip to screw into. That would have been handy as i just made some jigs to fit in the slot and would have saved me some hassle.
Owen


----------



## Carlow52 (11 Aug 2010)

Just to say how irritating it is to have to fill out a registration form before they show you a price list.

Every page has a link re price list

but then you have to register.

The other scary thing is that blade guides are seen as important accessories


----------



## Corset (11 Aug 2010)

As a side note does anyone know if the german guys hair is real or a hair piece. Its brill :lol:


----------



## moz (11 Aug 2010)

ProShop":2oi15pqt said:


> I really can't see why Felder should give out the info your suggesting, after all they're in the market to sell, service, maintain, install the machines they manufacture.
> 
> Lots of other companies don't produce this info either, and why should they.
> 
> ...



Actually, I was appealing to Dave for a more detailed manual, not asking for egg-sucking lessons. Obviously, I have indeed found information from the internet and by experimentation to be in the position I now am. Is it reasonable to have to resort to these methods having spent enough to buy a new car? The reason I am asking is because they neither provide a good enough service in many ways to satisfy some customers nor provide the information for them to do it themselves. As an example, I discovered the casting supporting the rip-fence to be convex, throwing out the aluminium extrusion when tightened. I reported this to Felder who, helpful as always, sent a replacement. This was no different which prompted further investigation which revealed an adjusting screw to adjust out the flex. There is no mention of this in the manual nor was it checked on any of the numerous remedial visits nor did it occur to the service manager who arranged for a replacement. The answer to your question, why should they?, it ought to be clear that an awful lot of everyone's (including Felder) time and money is wasted chasing around fixing things and it would take much of the pressure off by empowering owners much more than they already do. I am not sure that even the Austrian accountancy mentality can be as stupid as your description, i.e. hoping to wring some more money out of owners on the servicing front, because most of these problems are teething issues which tend to be resolved well within the warranty period so it is costing them a fortune. My own manual was in German, supplemented by a photocopy of the English version of the previous model posted to me by Norman Woods who seemed appalled himself that no greater effort had been made. All I am asking for is a more comprehensive manual which would benefit everyone all round. You don't have to agree but telling me to go and look for it is downright rude.

John


----------



## jasonB (12 Aug 2010)

Corset, yes are just strips with a Tee section that screw to the bottom of a board to become a sub table that you rest your bit of waney edge board on and then slide the lot along the short table.

Carlow, the machines all come with blade guides (think you mean riving knives) but if you look closely you will see that the "accesories" are all different thicknesses to suit blades with different kerfs. How many times is it said on here "make a new riving knife" if using a different kerf blade, a pro shop can't be wasting time doing that so just buy a suitable rioving knife. Same with the crown guards, they are also there as spares.

Jason


----------



## jeffinfrance (12 Aug 2010)

i'm with moz on this one.

there is a survival guide available.....written by a felder owner in america more frustrated than us......costs over £90. personally i think that should be supplied by felder. at no cost!

i know if you want to service your own car, you buy a haynes manual, but generally your new car will arrive properly set up in the first place. 

personally, i think the problems we are experiencing are down to the drive for cheaper not better products. there is no reason why a combination machine cannot be made with a one piece chassis, or a two piece with more ridgid fixing. use thicker sheet steel and cast iron tops. would that really increase the price that much??? as for the aluminium slider, i think it outrageous that the 250mm on both extremeties are practically unusable for precision work without a statement to this effect. a 2.5m table shaould be sold as a 2m.

granted, a steel or even cast iron slider would increase the fabrication costs significantly, but more than 50%? i think not. 

i have seen a few pre war machines over here still working as they should. i doubt my felder will still be in my shop in 25 years!

shame.

jeff


----------



## ProShop (12 Aug 2010)

moz":zc22cfsj said:


> You don't have to agree but telling me to go and look for it is downright rude. Austrian accountancy mentality can be as stupid as your description



Hey, calm down I wasn't being rude or stupid :twisted: :evil: :evil: all I said the info is out there for anyone to use.

Felder like lots of other companies around the world make money out of the things I mentioned (that aint stupid, it's the way the world of business works, that doesn't mean to say that it's good or efficient.)

You mention a copy of some manual from N Woods, I take it this is from some time ago. FWIW the new manuals with the latest models (2yrs +) are a big improvement on the previous ones which were rather poor for anyone who likes to do their own maintenance etc.


----------



## jeffinfrance (12 Aug 2010)

the manuals are poor now.

absolutely nothing on adjusting settings and poor translation for operations.

it would be beneficial to recieve also the technicians set up forms (for checking set up). still waiting for my english ones as my german is not up to speed.

jeff


----------



## moz (12 Aug 2010)

ProShop":iksuwasi said:


> moz":iksuwasi said:
> 
> 
> > You don't have to agree but telling me to go and look for it is downright rude. Austrian accountancy mentality can be as stupid as your description
> ...



Fair enough, but I wasn't saying you were stupid, just that your description of myopic business attitudes was perhaps a little harsh even for Felder though I'm not so sure.

I've dealt with them for over ten years, though my latest machine is around 3 years old (Norman was probably semi retired at that stage). All I'm really saying is that, if I owned Felder, I would want customers to be left with the best possible impression of my products. This isn't happening because a lot of excellent design and advanced manufacturing technology is so frequently p****d up the wall through lack of attention to detail at the end of the process. This is the reputation they have earned. That isn't the fault of people who don't want to pay £90.00 for a third party survival guide. It's their own fault. They just need to help customers to help themselves more. It is pro woodworkers who are losing money while they are being put through the oh so familiar mill of the post purchase Felder experience and many don't want a repeat of that. Anybody who has been through it knows what I'm talking about. Hell, even the engineers who commission these machines seem clueless about certain aspects so that would be a good place to start. I remember years ago when they got a good deal from a transport firm, sacked the excellent firm they had been using, then had a dozen machines wrecked because they were useless. This is what you are up against. 

John 

John


----------



## jeffinfrance (12 Aug 2010)

you should have seen how mine was delivered john.

perfect delivery on flatbed with tail lift to the local dealer, then unpacked in toulouse and squeed into a 2.5m panel van. the sliding table was wedged in between the machine and van side. the incompetent even arrived with no means of getting it out and into my workshop.

three hours and much machine twisting later and he throws the bits together, cuts one bit of timber and says its set up.

500 quid commission fee for that!

after a full day visit from another technician it was decided to replace the slider.

after he spent another full day trying to get that right, he left admitting he couldn't do it.

it took sending a video of a properly set up slider from the FOG to austria before i got another visit. this one arrived with some proper measuring tools and cracked it. still took him all day to sort the original delivery damage and i still have a 2500 euro slider taking up space in my shop.

credit to felder, they did the business, but it took 6 months!!!! and they wasted a hell of a lot of money.

money that should have been spent (and recouped) providing a better machine and initial setup.

i would have paid more for a once in a lifetime purchase, i'm not so sure thats what i made.

jeff


----------



## katellwood (12 Aug 2010)

FWIW 

I have a 1986 vintage Felder BF5 combi which I swear by. One thing I have noticed between mine and the more modern ones is the fact that the base frame supports the whole machine and is not just two machines bolted together, which as far as I can see the modern felder combi's appear to be. in addition the frame is cast iron and not pressed steel, does this assist in maintaining rigidity? 

Finally my wheel kit consists of two wheels at the planer end which are height adjustable and a single steering wheel at the sliding table end which is utilised by pumping up a small hydraulic bottle jack. when lowered the frame casting ends up resting on two strategically placed strips of timber and not the wheels 

I would be interested to here from anyone who previously owned a machine similar to mine and who has upgraded to the more modern felder and can give an objective view/comparison on both as it is my ambition when I finally retire to upgrade as I would like a longer sliding table.

Happy to supply pics of my current combi if anyone is interested


----------



## jeffinfrance (12 Aug 2010)

well it would appear that all the improvements you could make for mine, were taken off yours.

what a sad world we live in


----------



## beech1948 (12 Aug 2010)

As a long time Felder owner I have watched this thread with interest. My conclusions are as follows about modern Felder:-

1) Customer service no longer places the customer first

2) Felder employed staff are OK and knowledgeable but the use of distributors who obviously don't care about the quality, set-up and maintenance of Felder machines is a major worry. Felder should MANDATE the quality and performance of their distributors and installers and enforce it.

3) Manuals covering set-up and set-up techniques should be available. Its doesn't matter that Felder make money from these things only that the customer is satisfied.

4) Felder should provide a set-up sign off sheet with all details about how and to what tolerances the machine is set-up.

get with it Felder or become just another pretender to quality.

regards
Alan


----------



## moz (12 Aug 2010)

I had a BF6-31 which was the one after yours katellwood. That was a bit of a classic, sold in huge numbers and was a superb machine. It was a one piece chassis - mine came through a standard doorway on its side - that was fun. The mobility kit sounds similar but with a cam-action, wheeled jack which worked perfectly. This was set up in smart order by a sub-contracted, very knowledgable engineer and he did a fantastic job. Tony was his name. It never needed any further attention other than the sort of small occasional checks you need with regular use. Shortly after, they got rid of him, around the time Felder took over from Sanlin in the UK, presumably because he was - all together now - "too expensive"! There were quite a few other problems though, mainly a damaged slider due to incorrect packing. The wan**r, sorry, salesman who I had been dealing with didn't even bother to return my numerous calls and letters. A stiff letter to Austria resulted in appropriate feeling of buttocks and it was replaced pretty pronto after that. In answer to your specific question, I can say that the BF6-31 was moved continually without problem. Even moving it to my new workshop didn't upset it. This was a pressed steel chassis, fairly thick. I can't comment on how my current one would fair because I don't move it. It's difficult to say whether it should fair any worse since it seems to be of similar construction albeit much larger. The catalogue of problems with this one were only partially resolved by another letter to the top. Jeff seems to have found the same solution. Get the senior management do the buttocks kicking for you. I do agree though that they eventually come good and seem happy to spend hours and hours trying to remedy problems. Which is all the more puzzling, as you see their profit disappearing down a big hole. Through their efforts and mine, I now have a superbly accurate machine which gives me very quick results so don't necessarily be put off. I think it's just fair to say that you have to budget for an awful lot of extra time to get things sorted.

Jeff, I'm surprised you say your slider is still no use at either end. I managed to get mine well within spec all over. I did think that the extrusion was supposed to be ground after extruding but, having said that, mine isn't totally flat. I wonder whether there is a large manufacturing discrepancy and some are better than others. Just speculating. Other than that, if the slider isn't to blame, it just hasn't been set up properly. I have found it best to level the front part of the slider to the spindle end of the iron, and the back part of the slider to the saw end of the iron, using the outside set of bolts. Then, bring up the middle set of bolts making sure to preserve the clearance you obtained previously. If you do this, I can't see how it will not be acceptable in all positions. You should be able to use all of the table for all functions otherwise it really isn't good enough in my opinion. PM me if you think I can help. 

John


----------



## moz (12 Aug 2010)

Alan, sorry I've written acres about this already but just wanted to say I agree with all you have said. I strongly recall an article in the Woodworker in 1987 where a working furniture maker reviewed his Felder (probably the same model as katellwood). The thing which was most impressive was the total commitment of the company. On one occasion, he asked whether they though some particular setting was acceptable, not being sure himself whether it was within spec although working adequately. They were so appalled at the apparently miniscule discrepancy that they flew an engineer from Austria just to make sure the thing was singing absolutely perfectly. 

John


----------



## ProShop (12 Aug 2010)

beech1948":sc4y34fy said:


> 4) Felder should provide a set-up sign off sheet with all details about how and to what tolerances the machine is set-up.
> regards
> Alan



My last machine (last year) did have a sign off sheet with the settings recorded on it, marked against the factory tolerances.


I'm personally not to bothered about setting up details etc as I've spent the last 20 odd years doing just that. Setting woodworking machines up, I'm fortunate in that I have all the dial gauges, Polish squares, Moore & Wright & Starrett A grade straight edges etc etc. But I can see why customers who are mechanically minded want to tweak their machines and want some info. But then sometimes from a company point of view a little knowledge can be...............

Having been on the wrong end of Felders customer care on more than one occasion I can see the frustrations that the posters on this thread have.


----------



## jeffinfrance (13 Aug 2010)

hi john, 

the ends of the slider dip down due the tensioner keeping the slider straight. apparantly according to the FOG this is just as it is. the dip is only a thou or two, but that obviously makes a difference to precision work, moulding shoulders and the like. not a huge problem cos i have a 2.5m slider so there's still plenty of table to use for that, just means i have to move the extension table a bit, cos i can't clamp anything to the extreme ends.

i'm quite confident that the slider is now adjusted to within my (tighter than felders) tolerances. but i wont know for sure till i properly test the machine next week. the technician did say however, that he would be more than happy to come back and tweak it further if necessary and also after i leveling compound the shop floor. thats gonna be a pain in the proverbial!

still wish i'd made my shop a bit bigger and put in seperates. c'est la vie!

hopefully i can put the felder to bed now and concentrate on the next purchases, drill press and bigger bandsaw.

jeff


----------



## jasonB (13 Aug 2010)

Jeff if you are going to use leveling compound make sure its a strong one, a lot of these won't take a point loading so you may find things dig in or the weight will cause the machines feet to settle over a few days leaving indentations.

I had a couple of jobs where workshop floors mave had to be leveled to tight tollerances and used epoxy mortars to do it. These were MOT bays in garages which have to be to a certain spec for checking headlight alignment etc and will also get abused by jacks etc. I got the epoxy from Watco

On and I think I'd be happy with 1 -2 thou over a 2.5m slider, expect the timber will move more than that overnight.

Jason


----------



## jeffinfrance (13 Aug 2010)

thanks for the tip jason. thankfully, the jobs i have on to take me to christmas, don't need stuff longer than 2.7m, so no need to move the beast. resurfacing can be next years job.

i'm a lot happier with the machine now....a couple of thou drop off at each extremity i can live with, but as i said the centre 2m of slider appears to be pretty spot on to within a tenth of a millimetre.

the tru test will come tounge and grooving 125 linear metres of lipping i have lined up in a couple of weeks.

now the compensation negotiations begin!

all the best,

jeff


----------



## Benchwayze (14 Aug 2010)

Hi Alan, 
Welcome.


The last time I saw a Felder combination machine demonstrated was at a show some fifteen years back. I was mightily tempted, but sadly I don't have sufficient space for the big machine I wanted.

But again, welcome! 

Regards
John


----------

