# Swept back bowl gouges



## Grahamshed (25 Mar 2014)

I fancy a new toy
I have been looking at the Ellsworth bowl gouge but there seems to be many others under different names like 'celtic grind' 'Irish grind' 'Glen Lucas grind' 'fingernail grind' etc etc. No doubt there are minor differences but essentially they all look the same.

So, are they worth having ? and does it matter which ?

and while I am on the subject..... what is the difference between a bowl gouge and a spindle gouge ? They look much the same.


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## Robbo3 (25 Mar 2014)

Chas covered the subject here
- bowl-gouge-sharpening-t42517.html

More reading & pictures
- http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml
- http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm
- http://www.woodturner.org/community/fun ... Gouges.pdf
- http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/read ... _934.shtml

In general terms, spindle gouges tend to have a shallower flute than bowl gouges but newer shapes are blurring the distinction.

As for the long grinds, they are all variations on a theme.

Fingernail just refers to the gouge tip shape.


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## Dalboy (25 Mar 2014)

To be honest all I use for bowls is a standard grind and a fingernail grind. I always advise new turners to try these first then as they become more proficient then explore the other grinds. This is hopefully to help them get turning without all the worries of thinking about the type of grind which can bog them down.


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## Spindle (25 Mar 2014)

Grahamshed":16qc7qv6 said:


> what is the difference between a bowl gouge and a spindle gouge ?



Hi

The flute on a bowl gouge is much deeper than that of a spindle gouge - size for size bowl gouges are more massive by the means by which they are measured: bowl gouges are sized by the width of their flute whereas spindle gouges are sized by the diameter of the bar they are made from.

As for experimenting with various grinds - it's probably cheaper to buy a standard gouge and get used to using your Progrind.

I don't do an awful lot of bowl turning, I tend to grind my gouges to about 50 degrees with the wings swept back at about 45 degrees.

Regards Mick


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## yorkshirepudding (25 Mar 2014)

Having been turning for a couple of years now and, although I say so myself  have reached a reasonable level of competence, I've not yet used a "winged" gouge. There have been times when cutting deep bowls or goblets etc. when the bevel has lifted the cutting tip away from the wood (hope I'm being clear) and a swept back bevel may have helped in this situation.
However, there are other cutting tools such as carbide tipped or hollowing tools available which do the job.


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## Grahamshed (25 Mar 2014)

Come on guys. You are supposed to be telling me I cannot possibly manage without one. I have made a 15 slot tool rack and only have 6 slots occupied


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## Spindle (25 Mar 2014)

Don't worry - I have spaces for 50+ tools and am in the process of trying to find space for another rack - tool acquisition will be the least of your problems

Regards Mick


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## KimG (25 Mar 2014)

The actual grind will not be that critical, but a swept back 1/2" bowl gouge of some sort (I have the crown cryo as supplied by axminster) will eventually prove a valuable addition to your tool set, I don't find it difficult to use and it can make a very fine cut when needed once you get the hang of it.

The Crown gouge is reasonable too, no real need to spend an arm and a leg on a signature gouge.


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## Dalboy (25 Mar 2014)

Grahamshed":3111nnvy said:


> Come on guys. You are supposed to be telling me I cannot possibly manage without one. I have made a 15 slot tool rack and only have 6 slots occupied


I have 2 10 slot racks and only have 1 empty space it will soon fill up with tools   I only started with the basic tools and only brought as I needed them otherwise you could end up with a lot of tools just gathering dust(since this photo I have added a crown revolution hollower that is why there is 2 spaces in the photo)


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## Harry 48 (25 Mar 2014)

Graham how can you turn without the Ellsworth bowl gouge go out and buy one IMMEDIATELY 

How's that mate LOL


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## Random Orbital Bob (25 Mar 2014)

My two most used turning tools are a 3/8" bowl gouge with a fingernail grind but not as extreme as the Ellsworth and a skew for spindle work. I would argue each is the most versatile tool for face plate and between centre work respectively. They cut, they plane, they scrape, they shape. They are the work horses of each of the primary modes of turning. All other tools, from parting tools to dedicated scrapers are specialists of one form or another.

I recommend you focus on a 3/8" bowl gouge with a factory grind to start with but just nip the tips of the wings off to avoid catches. As your confidence grows, get a 2nd bowl gouge, perhaps 1/2" and give that a medium fingernail grind. For spindle work you'll want a 3/4" roughing gouge to get the work cylindrical and then a smaller spindle gouge for shaping. Personally I would start with a skew about a month after you've got the feel of the lathe. Start with spindle work, its safer and easier. But don't ignore the skew, it takes while to tame but is of such value when you can get it to what you want. Search out Richard Raffan materials if you want to see what the skew can do for you.


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## Sheptonphil (25 Mar 2014)

Grahamshed":1w5ovhci said:


> Come on guys. You are supposed to be telling me I cannot possibly manage without one. I have made a 15 slot tool rack and only have 6 slots occupied


I made. The same mistake, 15 slots will be over kill!

Four live homeless on the bench now, not unloved, just homeless, awaiting a summer rack refit. 

Keep away from the For Sale section on here. All the extras, inc the Elsworth ( a beast of a gouge, but so versatile on bowl work) were spotted there at brilliant prices. The must have spindle and bowl gouges and scrapers have all got there uses, but you will still use four or five go to tools most of the time. 

Tool rack looks impressive when full though. :lol: 

Phil


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## Silverbirch (25 Mar 2014)

Graham,
Good advice from Bob, for someone just starting out. Also, swept back grinds can be a little more tricky to sharpen, so just add an additional layer of unnecessary complication at the beginning.

ian


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## Spindle (26 Mar 2014)

Hi

Nice racks Dalboy at what I consider to be a safe height - all too often I cringe a peoples racks stood at bench level with the tool edges pointing up ready to impale.

Personally I use plumbing fittings to retain my tools.






Regards Mick


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## Bodrighy (26 Mar 2014)

Reading through this thread I am sooooooo amused at the apparent need to spend money unnecessarily. If I can get it sorted I am supposed to be doing an article for the magazine on 'turning on a shoestring' and you are giving me loads of food for thought here. A good turner can manage with 5 (possibly 4) tools and only needs to start getting more when he/she begins deep hollowing or other specialised work. All these special grinds are just where experienced turners have found by experimenting a grind that suits them. 
Pete


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Mar 2014)

bowl gouge, roughing gouge and a skew then


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## Bodrighy (26 Mar 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":326z5q6h said:


> bowl gouge, roughing gouge and a skew then


 Spindle gouge is useful LOL. I use mine more than the bowl gouge and a parting tool if you don't like using the skew for parting off. 

Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2014)

i think turnery is much the same as bench joinery - what you need, what you can justify, what you would like are all very different things.


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## Grahamshed (26 Mar 2014)

Woodworking is what I have/need to do to get the house and garden up to par. Though I enjoy it.
Wood turning is going to be my retirement hobby and if having a few unnecessary but nice tools (toys) to play with increases my enjoyment........


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Mar 2014)

did someone mention tools....


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## Grahamshed (26 Mar 2014)

:lol:


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## Robbo3 (26 Mar 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2ksfs5pd said:


> bowl gouge, roughing gouge and a skew then


I often rough with whatever gouge is closest to hand or even a skew. This doesn't make me a master turner, it's just something that I saw demonstrated once, then went home & practiced.

For the novices, can we make sure that we know that it's a spindle roughing gouge ie not to be used on bowls etc.


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## Silverbirch (26 Mar 2014)

If we are talking about what tools are needed for making a start and progressing as a beginner in woodturning, then the answer seems fairly straightforward, with only slight differences of opinion between individuals.
But we are also talking here, as Graham suggests, about enjoying turning as a hobby and a pastime. For some, that will mean (out of choice or through necessity) spending as little as possible on tools and materials to achieve the desired results. 
For others, part (or even most) of the enjoyment will be trying out the latest kit which has been featured so prominently in their favourite magazine or forum, or searching for that elusive tool which they hope will take their turning to the next level.
Now this might well be a delusion, but for the hobbyist it is a perfectly legitimate approach.
Choose any hobby you like. Do you really need that new lens to make your photos better? Will your birdwatching improve if you push the boat out for that expensive pair of binoculars? Will my timber be smoother if I buy that nice vintage infill plane?
Like it or not, buying unnecessary kit is, for many of us, part of the fun. It also helps to keep the magazines and forums alive, either directly through advertising, or by providing ammunition for debate and discussion.

Ian


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## Sheptonphil (26 Mar 2014)

Silverbirch":25rgwz4x said:


> If we are talking about what tools are needed for making a start and progressing as a beginner in woodturning, then the answer seems fairly straightforward, with only slight differences of opinion between individuals.
> But we are also talking here, as Graham suggests, about enjoying turning as a hobby and a pastime. For some, that will mean (out of choice or through necessity) spending as little as possible on tools and materials to achieve the desired results.
> For others, part (or even most) of the enjoyment will be trying out the latest kit which has been featured so prominently in their favourite magazine or forum, or searching for that elusive tool which they hope will take their turning to the next level.
> Now this might well be a delusion, but for the hobbyist it is a perfectly legitimate approach.
> ...



That's soooo well put, that's where I am, enjoying the hobby and finding a reason for owning the tools I just bought on impulse or because I liked the look of them. 

Whilst they sometimes help a little in doing a specific job, a cheaper solution could be found if I didn't have them, it's just more fun thinking 'I've got just the tool for that', and turning for me is a fun hobby. 

Phil


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## Harry 48 (26 Mar 2014)

I reprofiled my record 1/2 inch bowl gouge quite some time ago and would not be without it now make's it a dual tool you can use it as a shear scraper using the wings Cap Eddie Castelin has some you tube videos that are worth a watch its another tool in the arsenal :lol:


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## Bodrighy (26 Mar 2014)

Whilst I understand the fun aspect of getting tools and equipment I have met a number of people put off turning as a hobby due to the apparent cost of all the equipment and tools available. I love turning and am fortunate to be able to do it as a hobby and to earn a living and for me part of the fun is in doing it as much in the old way as possible with as few tools and equipment as possible. (being tight fisted may have something to do with it as well   I do get more specialise tools myself if they will help in my work e.g. I used to make my goblets using only a spindle gouge but I now often use a modern ring tool as I can rip the insides out in half the time. It doesn't annoy or irritate me, more amuses me to see turners with huge collections of tools. 

Pete


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## Silverbirch (27 Mar 2014)

Personally, I find I can do 99% of my turning with a 6 inch nail, stuck in a bit of old broom handle and sharpened on an old paving slab. :wink: 

Ian


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Mar 2014)

O' course we 'ad it tough.... cardboard box, aye, luxury! (Yorkshire accent)


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## Grahamshed (27 Mar 2014)

Oh come on now. Cardboard box. ?
Maybe we were posh, we ad a teachest, and it still had some of the foil lining.


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