# homemade table saw



## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

i bought a clm1500tss for £6 with a burned out motor anyway my plan is to put a motor on the outside of the saw much like a craftsman contractors saw they sell in the u.s my question is has anybody ever tried putting a longer arbor on to accomodate a dado stack because i just seen so much use for them rebates tenons coving dados and many joints from izzy swan and john heisz


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## Dee J (22 Apr 2016)

Greetings. That sounds like a rather challenging engineering project. If my googling is correct that's a B&Q own brand diy saw - so not the finest starting point. Might be better to get a more robust starting point.. and there are alternative ways to achieve much of what you want. Hand tools, planes and a reasonable router - maybe in a router table.
Good Luck
Dee


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## lurker (22 Apr 2016)

Its just not worth the effort.
A usable and safe saw can be had for under £300
If you cant afford that stick to hand tools

Anyone who looks to USA internet for advice about woodworking machinery and methods of use is on a fast track to A&E.


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## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

harsh but after much research i think im just gonna stick to the double blade method and letting the teeth land in the gullet of the other blade much simpler unfortunately needs more passes but gonna save me a heap of trouble


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## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

and as for usa woodworking being unsafe? seriously check out izzy swan or john heisz they are really good at what they do i cant understand that comment at all


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## lurker (22 Apr 2016)

Sorry I did not mean to be rude to a new member 
Welcome to the forums  

..........I'm still right tho :wink:


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## DiscoStu (22 Apr 2016)

Hi Accyjoiner. 

I think the guys are just looking after your best interests. Don't confuse nice quality work with safe working practice though. Just because someone has made something nice without injury doesn't make it safe practice. 

There is a video of a guy on you tube showing the benefits of a riving knife, even though he deliberately demonstrates the issue and is prepared for it, he still nearly has a nasty accident. A router table will give you rebates etc. Best to keep the riving knife and blade guard in place where you can. I do however think there are times when you might need to remove a blade guard - such as tenons but there are also other ways of achieving the same thing. 


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## MattRoberts (22 Apr 2016)

accyjoiner":326jdvlx said:


> harsh but after much research i think im just gonna stick to the double blade method and letting the teeth land in the gullet of the other blade much simpler unfortunately needs more passes but gonna save me a heap of trouble


Be very careful of that method - if one blade sticks and rotates it can shear of the carbide teeth of the other blade, and shout them at you. 

There's a video on YouTube where a guy uses bicycle inner tube rubber to separate the two blades - it's a somewhat safer method


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## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

clever hmmm shims are deffo an improvement on it and the rubber would give traction reducing if not stopping movement i'll bear that in mind when i get it going to be honest im only gonna use it for bench work im gonna make a small table maybe foldable with a slot to house a circular saw under it for site work (ripping arcs pipe boxes that sort of thing)


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## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

you dont have a link for said video matt?


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## DiscoStu (22 Apr 2016)

This is the video I was on about:

http://youtu.be/u7sRrC2Jpp4


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## MattRoberts (22 Apr 2016)

Sorry, on my mobile. Will try and dog it out later


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## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

yeah thanks discostu but i understand the dangers of wood machines i have been using them for 11 years now and i never once had kickback cuz im not stupid enough to feed a machine either the wrong way or too quickly thats not even the issue here i were asking about swapping an arbour to accommodate a dado cutter and fyi they are available in this country too but most saws wont have a long enough arbour unless your willing to pay £800 or £900 i only been on this site half a day and im sick the numpty trolls already


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## blackrodd (22 Apr 2016)

Hello Accyjoiner and welcome, The sawbench you mentioned in you're first post looks to be a cheepy and hardly 
merits the locating and fitting of a longer arbour and the beefier bearings needed to support the Dado sets.
An outside motor would be OK and suitably guarded obviously.
This subject was discussed recently, there are flat topped wider kerfed circular saw blades available, making box joints can be a bothersome job in sourcing and setting up but probably well worth the effort and a smaller saw and motor will drive this, Alternatively you could look out for another saw bench model that would accept a full Dado set.
These pop up for sale sometimes on Fleabay or buy direct from the states.
As you say Izzy and co are well set up in these projects but looking at the benches you can see they tend to be weighty and well made,
Please don't be harsh on the response so far, It's easy to assume that Newbies know not a lot, which is usually the case.
Regards Rodders


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## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

thank you blackrod im actually quite impressed with the clm1500tss saws fence and table top the folding legs aren't that great but im intending on setting it up permanently in my workshop so not really a problem its also got 2 mitre slots so a sled could be made i've even got a speed regulator for my motor so if i put the right blade on (evolution for reclaimed timber diamond continuous rim for sharpening tct blades if i can still alter the angles after i put new motor on)


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## blackrodd (22 Apr 2016)

Fully agree with the top, very useful. 
Been hunting round and found Solent Tools seem to have spares for you're saw bench should you need any bits,
I dare say that a replacement motor will be expensive, or brushes may be too late, link below.
Regards Rodders

http://www.solenttools.co.uk/


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## accyjoiner (22 Apr 2016)

i gave up trying to get a replacement motor they made in china and you gotta order like 1000 so im using a washing machine motor i salvaged its even got the same belt pulley on as the arbour on the saw so as long as i have the motor at the right distance i could even use the belt from a washing machine so if and when that goes i can replace it for free


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## heimlaga (23 Apr 2016)

Trying to stay ballanced...... well...... I see nothing wrong with installing a longer arbour to take a dado head. The concept is sound if properly done on an adequate saw. Some European saws actually take dado heads and dado heads are an acceptable practise If and only if the saw is suitable for this.

-A dado head is rather heavy compared to a sawblade. As all saws in professional use and all new saws sold are required to stop within 10 seconds after pushing the red button you will need a rather powerful braking system to go with your dado head unless you are a pure hobbyist taking a calculated risk with your own fingers. Most manufacturers deliver their saws with short arbour in Europe just to avoid the significant additional cost of a powerful braking system.
-To resist the forces involved when running a dado head the whole saw must be solid enough. Personally I would not attempt this on a ligt duty saw like yours.
-When using a dado head you cannot use a riving knife mounted guard nor a high riving knife. This means that you need to fabricate a solid overarm guard and a riving knife that is either low enough to not protrude above the blade or easy to remove and replace. 
-Washing machine motors are usually open designs with visible windings. Much like the old open electric motors of the 1910-s and 1920-ies. They tend to get full of dust and the insulation on the windings is easily damaged by pieces of wood dropped onto the motor or simply worn away by dust spinning around. I can go as far as accepting an old open ended motor in a hobby workshop but entirely open motors including washing machine motors have nothing to do in or near a wood workshop. They are just not safe enough in my oppinion.
-When an accident happens (they happen to me) you will be better off if you have though about liability issues. CE-marked machines are approved as an entiety and all changes are at your own risk. Remember that.

I have modified and converted a number of machines myself for professional use. Converted a band saw and a big cirkular saw bench from line shaft driven to motor driven. 
To produce a good conversion one has to do the homework properly before startying. Know how changes affect te machine and how they work together. Know which safety regulations one must follow to save one's own fingers and which ones one can disregard as just paperwork. Understand the engineering of the machine down to every last detail more accurately than the engineer who designed it ever did. Be a good scrounger with an eye for picking the good part from a heap of assorted parts. Be a decent machinist and fitter and welder able to figure out ways of making part that will work all while knowing one's limitations.
First and foremost choose a suitable machine for the conversion. There are plenty of broken machines on the market to pick from.

I think your project is both doable and a good idea but you have to pick a more suitable saw to start from and start doing your homework.


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## dzj (24 Apr 2016)

Google says your TS comes with a 254mm blade. Washing machine motors are usually in the 1 Hp range, so you'll probably
need to reduce blade diameter, particularly for ripping.


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## accyjoiner (25 Apr 2016)

well the motor i got is much larger than the original which is 1800w (yeah i know the saw is advertised at 1400 stupid but it is what it is) and it isn't labelled so no idea what power it is but the speed is more than adequate i dunno if there is a way to measure the wattage maybe with a multimeter i should prob test it but honestly it is much larger than the original so im confident it will be enough and as i have already said im not interested in a dado set anymore far too much like hard work to change the arbour when 2 blades will be enough for box joints and tenons not like im going to be mass producing stuff probs only for kitting out my workshop and that be the end of it


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## accyjoiner (25 Apr 2016)

in fact thinking on if the motor was to burn out i can just get another they free if you keep an eye out for an old washer on the alleys so im not right fussed if i gotta replace it once a year haha


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## heimlaga (25 Apr 2016)

There is no easy way to measure wattage.

The physical size of a motor tells very little about the actual power. Especielly not if the RPM is unknown.

Around here one can find any number of secondhand fully enclosed and safe industrial motors at scrap yards and flea markets and advertised online. Buying one is a bit of a gamble if you don't own a Megger to test it with but I think you should take the gamble with 10-20 pounds.
Just make sure that the motor is adapted for single phase if that is all you have.

I recently paid 65 euros for an 8kW 2900RPM industrial three phase motor in excellent condition. Smaller motors are cheaper and more plentiful.


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## accyjoiner (25 Apr 2016)

i've since looked into measuring wattage and its simple meassure current times by voltage equals wattage


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## heimlaga (26 Apr 2016)

It isn't that easy. A motor use very little current when running unloaded because it needs very little power to keep itself running.

When you start sawing the current will rise and thereby the power output will rise to meet the demand. As you are feeding your workpiece faster or start sawing a thicker workpiece your motor will draw even more current and increase its power output even more. When you continue to increase the load and hence the power you will sooner or later reach the point where the current flows so faast through the windings that the windings heat up enoug to melt the insulation. The motor short cirquits and you get a puff of smoke from the smoldering insulation and hopefully the fuse goes out before you get an electric shock.

The power output on the motor tag is there to tell you how much power you can take from the motor without using more current than the windings can deal with without overheating.

Go home. Do your homework.
Don't start modifying machinery until you have done your homework and learned how the machines actually work!


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## accyjoiner (26 Apr 2016)

WOW! you arrogant pineapple this has seriously pineappled me off you actually think i dont know how a motor works? i dont appreciate being spoken to like some sort of reject pineapple this site its for trolls that get their kicks from trying to make people feel stupid by belittling them go throw yourself off somthing very tall thanks


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## Wuffles (26 Apr 2016)

accyjoiner":trq24yx8 said:


> WOW! you arrogant pineapple this has seriously pineappled me off you actually think i dont know how a motor works? i dont appreciate being spoken to like some sort of reject pineapple this site its for trolls that get their kicks from trying to make people feel stupid by belittling them go throw yourself off somthing very tall thanks



Got here late, what did I miss?


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## MattRoberts (26 Apr 2016)

*Passes the popcorn *


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## heimlaga (26 Apr 2016)

No I wasn't arrogent though my translation from thoughts in Swedish to writing in English may have made the text sound a bit arrogant. In that case I apoligize.

I told you what one of my best friends told me some 15 years ago when I was at that stage of my learning curve. 
Go home..... Do your homework...... Come back and do things right when you know what you are doing.

I felt bad at the time but in hindsight I am very thankful for his frankness. I did my homework and I learned!


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## Wuffles (26 Apr 2016)

heimlaga":2r0kzi67 said:


> No I wasn't arrogent though my translation from thoughts in Swedish to writing in English may have made the text sound a bit arrogant. In that case I apoligize.
> 
> I told you what one of my best friends told me some 15 years ago when I was at that stage of my learning curve.
> Go home..... Do your homework...... Come back and do things right when you know what you are doing.
> ...



I don't think he's coming back, unless he's gone to learn Swedish?


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## jdeacon (26 Apr 2016)

Well, I've learned something today: using forums doesn't count as homework. Hmmm.


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## memzey (27 Apr 2016)

What is it about dado stacks that get a lot of people on fora so worked up? I run a Freud super dado on my Wadkin dimension saw and it is super handy. Much quicker and more flexible in use than using a router and probably cheaper to boot. I also think the safety aspect is sometimes misrepresented. Yes you need to remove the riving knife which in the case of most saws means also removing the guard but a couple of points should be observed about this:

1. As you are making housings or rebates with the dado stack your chances of kick back are going to be negligible as the wood both sides of the blade is still connected

2. The blades are very rarely more than 3/4 of an inch above the table and spend most of their time completely buried in the stock

I'm not saying they are safe or safer than another way but to my mind all these power tools pose different risks to the operator who must have his wits about him at all times. If you are not sensible and don't concentrate on what you are doing you are going to have a bad time, regardless of whether you use a dado stack or a sharp chisel. 

PS - having said all of that if I were in the OP's shoes I would not seek to convert that saw into something that takes a dado stack. My Wadkin is a substantial piece of cast iron and is well suited to that use. If I were he and wanted a cheap saw capable of using a dado I'd probably look for an old AGS 10". Great saws and built to last.


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## heimlaga (27 Apr 2016)

I wasn't wound up over the dado blade. 

I just didn't like his way of sticking to a totally unsuitable motor without accepting basic facts about how an electric motor works.


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## heimlaga (27 Apr 2016)

Wuffles":2enfiqwr said:


> heimlaga":2enfiqwr said:
> 
> 
> > No I wasn't arrogent though my translation from thoughts in Swedish to writing in English may have made the text sound a bit arrogant. In that case I apoligize.
> ...



I sent him a PM with my apologies.


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## Wuffles (27 Apr 2016)

heimlaga":2dshx1j6 said:


> Wuffles":2dshx1j6 said:
> 
> 
> > heimlaga":2dshx1j6 said:
> ...



Wasting your time. He's the one needing to apologise in my opinion.

Well done for being the bigger man.


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## memzey (27 Apr 2016)

heimlaga":39hmhpxn said:


> I wasn't wound up over the dado blade.
> 
> I just didn't like his way of sticking to a totally unsuitable motor without accepting basic facts about how an electric motor works.


I know. That was a general observation and not pointed at you (just search for the last few threads on the topic in this forum and you'll see what I mean). I also advised against said "upgrade". I hope the OP does get what he is looking for without putting himself at unnecessary risk of injury. If you're still reading please respond to let us know how you get on.


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## John Brown (27 Apr 2016)

Gosh. He must really hate pineapples.


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## lurker (28 Apr 2016)

Heimlaga,

Don't get concerned, your posts are always good and provide sensible views. There is nothing wrong with your English it always is accurate and indistinguishable from the rest of us.
You are a fine member of this forum's community so carry on as you have always done

From his first post he was talking ignorant rubbish.
Trouble is today, so many people don't know what they don't know.


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## lurker (28 Apr 2016)

memzey":1xlrtk8v said:


> What is it about dado stacks that get a lot of people on fora so worked up? I run a Freud super dado on my Wadkin dimension saw and it is super handy. Much quicker and more flexible in use than using a router and probably cheaper to boot. I also think the safety aspect is sometimes misrepresented. Yes you need to remove the riving knife which in the case of most saws means also removing the guard but a couple of points should be observed about this:
> 
> 1. As you are making housings or rebates with the dado stack your chances of kick back are going to be negligible as the wood both sides of the blade is still connected
> 
> ...



In a machine like yours there is nothing wrong with ' stacks
In saws most of us have the saw is an innapropriate design to start with.
Horse for courses


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## memzey (28 Apr 2016)

Yes you are correct of course. A DS is fine in an appropriate machine and with due care and attention shown by the operator.


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## MattRoberts (29 Apr 2016)

accyjoiner":1j02uz2z said:


> you dont have a link for said video matt?




Finally found that video on using inner tube rubber to make a dado stack: https://youtu.be/jVuPF7GxC2s


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## squib (29 Apr 2016)

IMHO.... Heimlagas opinion is totally correct and polite and if you ask an opinion about an unsuitable piece of machinery to to an unsuitable job and then don't like the answer ,what was the point in the first place?
11 years using woodworking machinery and you end up trying to adapt that piece of rubbish, you need to listen to some proper advice......does this count as a rant?


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## accyjoiner (30 Apr 2016)

at what point did i ask how a motor burns out? when did i ask for anyone's opinion on weather or not the motor would stand up to the task? i had literally just said "if the motor burns out and needs replacing i dont care because i can get them for free" i dont appreciate being belittled all i wanted to know was weather someone had swapped a motor and as for starting with a piece of rubbish end of the day im just starting out going self employed if i could afford even a £50 table saw i would go get one but i cant im making do till work picks up its not gonna be perfect i know but it will get the job done cart on telling me its dangerous or its not good enough or its not gonna last i dont care im doing what i can to make a living instead of being a doll dosser so if that makes me a bad person then cart on giving me grief


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## heimlaga (30 Apr 2016)

You will very soon end up on very hard times with your enterprise if you have decided that you don't want to know how to make things work. 

Myself I am very much where you are. Living on sick benefits slowly recovering my health. Heading for eternal unemployment unless I become self employed. Fighting all kinds of government paid idiots who try to stop me from becoming self employed because I cannot pay 10000 euros in license fees and CE-certifications. Fighting poverty. Fighting certain civil servants in the benefits system who try to force me to sell my tools because "people like you aren't supposed to ever get a job".... and fighting my illness every day. Exercising every day and slowly getting stronger while the phantom pains slowly go away. Doctors predict a 90-100% recovery. 
Anyway...... I was sort of self employed in carpentry and joinery until bad health overtook me two years ago. Therefore I have some roundabout ideas about how things work financially.
To earn any money what so ever you need tools that are suitable for the job. 15 minutes more setup time four times a day doesn't break the bank but once set up the machine must do it's job efficiently. Otherwise you don't make any money.
A motor that isn't up to the task will slow down production to an unacceptable extent. So will your saw which isn't up to professional use especially not when powered by a washing machine motor.

I have done my math and found that the only way of getting efficient enough machines without a huge heap of loaned money ( I am too poor to get a loan except at exorbitant interrest rates) is to buy old cast iron machines which were up to the industrial standards of the day. Rebuild them properly to modern standards using proper materials mostly purchased from local scrap merchants. Fight government and refuse to pay any kind of license fees or CE-certifications no matter what they threat you with.

If you cannot affort to follow this route you are better off living on benefits. Then you can do small jobs on the black market all while flying under the radar of the taxman. Take payment cash in hand. Invest that black money in some old outdated industrial machines. Rebuild them to modern standards and get going.
When being self employed you have nothing to fall back on. You must be apble to support yourself or you go bankrupt and end up on benefits again with a debth to pay off for the rest of your life.
Starting out the way you plan to do with inadequate equipment will only make this whole process very rapid.


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## heimlaga (30 Apr 2016)

By the way your last answer is just a showcase of you arrogance and fact resistivity........ I am getting sick and tired of your accusations.....


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## SammyQ (19 May 2016)

Heimlaga, I am in a similar position to you all those years ago, I have an electricity supply to my workshop that is not up to the job I am asking it to do. I have VERY recently experienced a problem similar to what you described with a motor drawing a large current and heating up.

Please continue to post with the knowledge that your contributions are valuable and add to the overall knowledge base that is the real value of this forum.

Accy? You are not alone in trying to stretch the pennies; quite a few here hesitate to lay out cash and we appreciate the need to use a plan B instead of a Festool. All that Heimlaga was trying - in part - to do, was point out the possibility of a fire starting in a place that has flammable timber and very probably flammable solvents. Given your financial constraints, please forgive me if I guess your workspace is small or cramped? Igniting flammable gases there is not a picture to conjure with.

Sam


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## shed9 (24 May 2016)

I'm a little confused at what happened on this thread. As far as I can see, someone asked for advice regarding the retrofitting of a 'found' motor and subsequent modification of a cheap saw to attach a blade that is clearly meant to be fitted to something else - and then had a strop because people advised?

What did I miss?


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## Wuffles (24 May 2016)

What are you saying?! You want some?


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## shed9 (24 May 2016)

Wuffles":14rsobt9 said:


> What are you saying?! You want some?



nope, not a thing :|


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## shed9 (24 May 2016)

shed9":3mbvph11 said:


> Wuffles":3mbvph11 said:
> 
> 
> > What are you saying?! You want some?
> ...



Just a tad confused why someone would ask for advice and then shoot most of it down as insulting.


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## Wuffles (24 May 2016)

shed9":1d5am1it said:


> shed9":1d5am1it said:
> 
> 
> > Wuffles":1d5am1it said:
> ...



We should rename it the arguing thread. Unless you have a problem with that? Do you?!


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## Wuffles (24 May 2016)

shed9":h6elrcsh said:


> Wuffles":h6elrcsh said:
> 
> 
> > What are you saying?! You want some?
> ...



It's dawned on me that you perhaps didn't see my humour on this one, soz.


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## MattRoberts (24 May 2016)

Wuffles":239czyi1 said:


> shed9":239czyi1 said:
> 
> 
> > Wuffles":239czyi1 said:
> ...


I chuckled Wuffles


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## memzey (25 May 2016)

Me too!


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## n0legs (25 May 2016)

Well I didnt. :evil: 
Do I need to put my heavy boots on and warm up the car,
or what?


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## Wuffles (25 May 2016)

n0legs":19g3vdor said:


> Well I didnt. :evil:
> Do I need to put my heavy boots on and warm up the car,
> or what?



You realise you'll be paying to get back home after this? Unless ambulances go across the bridge for free!


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## lurker (25 May 2016)

I think the OP is site7's twin brother

What happened to him?
I quite miss him.


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## n0legs (25 May 2016)

Wuffles":2ic4es8m said:


> You realise you'll be paying to get back home after this? Unless ambulances go across the bridge for free!



I cross for free pal, big whoop wanna fight about it?
By the way ambulances do cross for free, yeah so what?


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## n0legs (25 May 2016)

lurker":1ny4xhpd said:


> I think the OP is site7's twin brother
> 
> What happened to him?
> I quite miss him.



:lol:


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## Wuffles (25 May 2016)

n0legs":3cbbinei said:


> Wuffles":3cbbinei said:
> 
> 
> > You realise you'll be paying to get back home after this? Unless ambulances go across the bridge for free!
> ...



Lol. Is that a Family Guy character?


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## n0legs (25 May 2016)

Wuffles":s5lco4ut said:


> Lol. Is that a Family Guy character?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yea he's the guy who runs the driving range, where Chris gets a job collecting the balls :lol: 
Are you a fellow viewer?


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## shed9 (25 May 2016)

Wuffles":3g5f65yd said:


> shed9":3g5f65yd said:
> 
> 
> > Wuffles":3g5f65yd said:
> ...



Yup, don't worry it wasn't lost on me.  That was my keeping schtum face up there, nothing else.


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## Wuffles (26 May 2016)

n0legs":1q8l8u6f said:


> Wuffles":1q8l8u6f said:
> 
> 
> > Lol. Is that a Family Guy character?
> ...



Yes, small man syndrome in cartoon form.

Becksy & Yeti anyone?


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## SammyQ (26 May 2016)

You two need to get out more.... :lol:


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## Wuffles (26 May 2016)

{rolls up sleeves}


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## Benchwayze (26 May 2016)

lurker":vcq4qxey said:


> Its just not worth the effort.
> A usable and safe saw can be had for under £300
> If you cant afford that stick to hand tools
> 
> Anyone who looks to USA internet for advice about woodworking machinery and methods of use is on a fast track to A&E.



Why don't you say what you mean Lurker! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Mind you, someone mentioning a Dado stack, reminded me I am still using a wobble-saw on my Coronet Major!


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