# Workshop shed planning permission



## dh7892

I've just moved house and all my tools etc are currently in the loft doing no one any good. So, I want to build a shed to work in. 

I've seen loads of impressive builds on this site and I'm sure my modest attempt will be very poor in comparison. Whilst starting to plan the project, I took a quick look at planing permission rules even though you don't need planning permission for a shed right? Well it seems that you don't need permission provided you meet certain criteria one of which is that no part of the shed is within one metre of a boundary! 

I have seen a lot of sheds in my time and none of them is more than a metre from a fence. Does this mean that everyone gets permission for these? I doubt it. 

Have I got my facts wrong?

I seem to remember topics like this coming up on this site bout I couldn't find them with the search tool so apologies if I'm going over old ground.


----------



## Dibs-h

dh7892":3o4lhr6a said:


> I've just moved house and all my tools etc are currently in the loft doing no one any good. So, I want to build a shed to work in.
> 
> I've seen loads of impressive builds on this site and I'm sure my modest attempt will be very poor in comparison. Whilst starting to plan the project, I took a quick look at planing permission rules even though you don't need planning permission for a shed right? Well it seems that you don't need permission provided you meet certain criteria one of which is that no part of the shed is within one metre of a boundary!
> 
> I have seen a lot of sheds in my time and none of them is more than a metre from a fence. Does this mean that everyone gets permission for these? I doubt it.
> 
> Have I got my facts wrong?
> 
> I seem to remember topics like this coming up on this site bout I couldn't find them with the search tool so apologies if I'm going over old ground.



When you say shed - you obviously don't mean the cheap 8x6 that actually are sheds? You mean a proper place for wood butchering?

If it's the latter - IIRC the 1m thing is from Building Regs about the structure being made from mainly non-combustable materials. The planning requirement is related to footprint (I think) but mainly the ridge height - i.e. over a certain height then you will require PP.

MikeG is back so he might be able to chip in - or someone else. You could always have a look at at either Planning Portal or your LA's planning page. Sometimes a quick phone call can yield results.

In my case - my "shed" is bigger than some bungalows so need PP.

Dibs


----------



## BigMac

Planning Portal is the right place to look http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/englan ... 33153.html

Basically you need to think about it in two stages - planning permission and building regs.

Assuming you aren't in a conservation area, area of natural beauty etc. then (assuming there haven't previously been planning conditions attached to your house) you can without planning permission:

1. cover up to half of your back garden in sheds and other buildings

2. build these buildings to a max height of 2.5m if within 2m of the boundary or (if no part of it is within 2m of the boundary) 4m for a dual pitch roof or 3m for any other other roof

So generally if it is in your back garden planning people only care about the height for most projects.

Building regs on the other hand will be necessary if you are doing any electrics without a proper sparky, will be necessary if it is over 30sqm and will be necessary if it is over 15sqm and within 1m of the boundary and isn't "substantially non-combustible" (i.e. brick and tile or similar).


----------



## MikeG.

Because this question crops up so often, and because the above answer is so clear and concise, I reckon that this thread would be useful as a "sticky".

Are there any moderators reading this who might consider stickyfying it?

-

All I would add is don't be hidebound by these heights and areas. If you want bigger or taller or closer to the boundary, obtaining Planning Permission is not really a big deal......and Building Regs Approval is generally extremely straight forward if you employ someone competent.

Mike


----------



## xy mosian

Any chance of just talking to your local planning office, in broad terms?

xy


----------



## dh7892

Thanks for the replies. 

I might well be talking about just a fairly basic bought shed on brick piles or a concrete base. I'm not really certain just yet. 

That link to the planning portal is very helpful. Since it's a .gov address I also consider it to be a more authoritative link than the one I was looking at.

I have been on this site: http://diydata.com/planning/planregperm/planning_rules.php 

At the bottom of the page it states:



> Neither Planning Permission or Building Regulation approval is required provided that:
> 
> * Sheds and greenhouses do not cover more than half of the area of the garden; not including the area occupied by the house.
> * It contains no sleeping accommodation and the floor area does not exceed 15 square metres.
> * No point is less than one metre from a boundary.
> * It is not more than 3m high for a flat roof, or 4m with a ridged roof.
> * No part projects beyond any wall of the house that faces a road.
> * The outbuilding is for use only by those who occupy the house.
> 
> Building Regulations do state that structures built of combustible material (i.e. a wooden shed) must be at least 2 metres from the main house.



Which is similar to but not quite the same as what the planning portal says. 

In terms of speaking with a local planning office, I'll probably end up doing that. Before I get to that, I'll have a chat with my office mate who is also my local councilor! (when he gets back from holiday). He's a very good source of information.


----------



## Jake

Minor amendment, which is that the area criteria is not more than 50% of the curtilage minus the area of the house i.e. includes the area of front garden, side alleys etc, not the just back garden.


----------



## BigMac

dh7892 - I think DIYData have failed to update the outbuildings bit for the 2008 changes (although they do list the 2008 changes for extensions).

Jake - If you really want to get into the details its curtilage minus the size of the house when it was built or in 1948, whichever was most recent. I just added a bit of leeway and frankly think you'd be mad to concrete over more than half your garden!

Definitely my OP was just meant as a quick summary and if you're pushing the boundaries or doing anything unusual you should be looking at the planning portal and talking with your local planning department. There are all kinds of other oddities like where you measure for the roof heigh from if you're not on a flat site and the biggest gotcha these days is likely to be if you've recently bought a new build house where you may well find you've had all of your permitted development rights removed.


----------



## dh7892

BigMac - So are you saying that it used to be the case the you needed permission for a shed that was within 1m of a boundary but that those rules changes in 2008?

If so, I still think there are a lot of sheds out there that were put up without the required permission.

Anyway, thanks for all the info. It sounds like the best thing is for me to plan my shed then give the planning office a call and run it by them just to be on the safe side.


----------



## BigMac

dh7892":3p8yxdbp said:


> BigMac - So are you saying that it used to be the case the you needed permission for a shed that was within 1m of a boundary but that those rules changes in 2008?



Yep, although the rules used to be a lot more complicated (sheds used to be able to end up being considered extensions for example if within 5m) and even a couple of years ago you got people making comments about temporary buildings being permitted which just wasn't true.

Fact is I'm sure there are lots of illegal sheds, but unless you p off the neighbours the planning people are never going to find out.



Oh and I just remembered my other reason for the back garden comment is that it neatly sidesteps having to add as an individual requirement that you can't generally put sheds in your front garden without planning.


----------



## dh7892

> Fact is I'm sure there are lots of illegal sheds, but unless you p off the neighbours the planning people are never going to find out.



Indeed, in fact I was a bit worried that asking about permission for me might bring the attentions of an over zealous planning official to our area which might raise problems for one neighbour who seems to have a few rather large pigeon lofts. He may well have permission for all I know but, like you say, not a good way to introduce yourself to the locals by getting their sheds knocked down!


----------



## BigMac

Not sure there is any need to tell them who you are or where you live.

Unless you pay them they won't give you any kind of legally binding sign off on it (certificate of permitted development? I think its called) so no reason to be discussing your specific case with them rather than just trying to talk in generalities on a no names basis.


----------



## BigShot

One thing to be aware of with planning officers, is they are (taken as a group) probably the most non-comittal bunch of so-and-sos I've ever come across - with a possible exception made for some (but not all) particularly slimy politicians.

Pre-application you'll ask something and "it depends" would be a specific answer compared to the "there's no way of knowing without submitting a drawing" you usually get.

The ones I deal with will never give a straight answer, will never tell you what an issue would depend on, whether there's an in-principle objection to something or anything else that's even vaguely useful.

Some aren't like that, but the vast, vast majority are.

Just this week I described a proposal to a planning officer that I knew they would NEVER pass in a MILLION years (the client wanted me to check just in case), asked if they'd object in principle after making abundantly clear there was nothing like it in the area and got the same "need to make an application" mantra.

By all means, contact your local planning department, but don't expect anything useful from them - if you then get something worth knowing it will be a pleasant surprise.


----------



## MikeG.

I don't know what part of the country you are in, Big Shot, but that is the complete opposite of my experience with Planning Officers. 

If there are any questions in my mind as to whether I will achieve Planning Permission, I generally approach them with a site plan, a back-of-the-envelope sketch and some site photos. They are invariably helpful. 

Of course, they can't guarantee permission, as there is a proper process to follow (and the powers they have are only delegated to them anyway, by the full Council)....thus if you seek anything in writing you will get words like........"....would receive officer level support in principle for a well designed 2 storey dwelling"......or "I give this advice without prejudice".

Planning Officers won't know about the Planning status of everyone else's sheds, either. They will also have absolutely no interest, unless they get a complaint. There is very little danger that a visit by anyone to the Council offices to discuss a proposal pre-application could ever lead to action being taken against someone elses' shed. Unless you are proposing a huge or controversial development, you won't get a Planning Officer to do a site visit prior to an application being submitted.

Mike


----------



## Waka

I'm a bit confused (thats not hard) regarding the erection of something within 1 m of the boundary and planning permission. When I had my workshop extended a couple of years ago I followed the line of the existing building which is the actual boundary.

I put in an application with plans to see if I needed planing permission and the answer came back in writing as a no. Doesn't this contradict the 1 m boundary rule, or have I missed something?


----------



## BigShot

Mike, I certainly wouldn't expect a planning officer to give any guarantees, but in my experience a lot of them won't even say whether they would object to something "in principle" or not even when they have a really clear description.

That includes officers in a number of Manchester councils (Tameside, Manchester, Bury, Salford, Stockport, Bolton) and also Preston and one or two others. Bury has such a reputation I frequently have new clients asking if they are really as bad as they've heard from friends.

I've had good experience with "pre-planning advice" where the client is definitely going ahead with a job and wants to get the council involved before getting quotes from contractors (I only work in the design side of the job) so gets us in to do the drawings, submit and deal with the planning officer.

The problem really arises when you're asking a question which could make the difference between a job being possible or not.

The most recent example was a dormer loft conversion on a low-ridge roof, client asked about having a front and rear dormer meeting above the existing ridge, no neighbours had any similar work done.

The flat refusal to give even confirm if there was an objection in-principle to that kind of work means a client has to choose between doing nothing, or getting plans drawn up and making an application, waiting weeks for a response - and if refused they have wasted hundreds of pounds.

In the example I gave I suspect they wouldn't pass the plans, but the refusal to even be drawn a bit is just annoying.

Many times in the past I've made a call to find out if there were any objections "in principle", even going as far as a rough sketch at times, being given the usual response and after making the application being told about 2 days later there's no way in hell it'll be passed for in-principle reasons x, y and z (all reasons they'd been asked about before but said either nothing, or no "in principle" objection).

Yea, some of them are fine, but for the most part they are a bit of a nightmare around here. Some of them are just flat out stupid and have absolutely NO eye for what looks good on a building.

Some of our local officers have turned a large portion of this area into an eyesore thanks to their absolutely idiotic interpretation of a particular "guideline". Under the new permitted development rules they have been overruled, but it doesn't make the jobs they changed to their personal preference look any better. The amount of kooky looking oddities on houses that have been put on to please planners or get around their really petty requirments is shockingly large.

Exceptions to the above made for any actual human beings who work in planning departments, of course. There just aren't many around here.


----------



## ferdinand

Two potentially useful sources of information:

1 - The Forums over at the gardenlaw.co.uk website are very good on points of law and not upsetting your neighbours.

2 - There's often good general advice on websites of organisation dealing with "Garden Offices" and chalet-style rooms, without mentioning any particular company. Clearly people on ukworkshop are capable of building their own, but the FAQ sections can be useful.

Ferdinand


----------



## big soft moose

okay so ive read the thread and i'm now more confused than when i started (not difficult in my case)

can somebody clarify , if i want to put up a shed (and i'm talking about one of those 6x4 efforts you get in B&Q etc - the purpose being to store swimbos bike and gardening tools and other rubbish that keeps making its way back into the 'shop) can it be closer than 1m to the boundary without PP or not.

I'm fairly sure that ellie next door wont care anyway but we are tennants and the letting agency will probably want everything done to the letter.


----------



## BigMac

Assuming you aren't in a conservation area, area of natural beauty etc. then there shouldn't be a problem as its well under the building regs size limit and should be under 2.5m tall.


----------



## Dibs-h

big soft moose":23gbnb56 said:


> okay so ive read the thread and i'm now more confused than when i started (not difficult in my case)
> 
> can somebody clarify , if i want to put up a shed (and i'm talking about one of those 6x4 efforts you get in B&Q etc - the purpose being to store swimbos bike and gardening tools and other rubbish that keeps making its way back into the 'shop) can it be closer than 1m to the boundary without PP or not.
> 
> I'm fairly sure that ellie next door wont care anyway but we are tennants and the letting agency will probably want everything done to the letter.



I always took it that PP had nothing to do with the 1m thing - that is\was more from a BR perspective. To be honest as it's one of those 6'x4' things - I'd just put it where you fancy (as long as the neighbours don't have an issue). There must be 1000's of those up and down the country - right up to the boundary.


----------



## devonwoody

I want to attach a new shed(for lathe) built in timber to the side of my detached bungalow, would I ever get planning permission?

Reading posts above, it states a building in combustible materials is not possible,


----------



## devonwoody

devonwoody":2j2gd7hb said:


> I want to attach a new shed(for lathe) built in timber to the side of my detached bungalow, would I ever get planning permission?
> 
> Reading posts above, it states a building in combustible materials is not possible,



Rang the building regs. office this afternoon and things are not as bad as first thought, he said if its ground level and only a garden outbuilding building regs. need not apply. 
The planning office were a bit more cunning, they said write in and we will give you a form to fill in.
I pushed and got an answer eventually that if its a garden outbuilding and met the usual criteria (my words) I dont need planning permission.
So I might have a turning shed shortly for the big lathe I am getting


----------



## ninjabika

hi

don't know if this is of any use to any one, if you click on any part of the house or garden or out buildings, it gives you links to any rellevent information you might need


http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upload ... guide.html



martin

p.s you need to click launch the guide at the bottom to open it up as full screen


----------



## devonwoody

thats novel and interesting. thanks.


----------



## dh7892

I've sent my local planning dept an email with my outline intentions and asked them whatI have to do next. They responded saying that they needed to know my address so they could "forward my enquiry on". I'm not sure quite what that's about but I hope it's not a bad sign.


----------



## MikeG.

No, that will be the receptionist needing to work out which Planning Officer to give your drawing to. Most councils divide the work up on an area basis so that one Planning Officer gets to know his patch very well.

Mike


----------



## dh7892

Good to know. 

I've nearly finished my sketchup design and I'll start a new topic with it when I'm ready to invite comments.


----------



## dh7892

Still hadn't heard anything from the planning office so I phoned them. 

I told them that, at this stage, I just wanted to clarify if I would need planning consent. I told her that I thought that I would because I suspect that the ridge height would be above 2.5m. She asked if it was within 2m of the boundary to which I replied that the shed is but the ridge might not be ! I asked if it was the ridge or the actual shed that counts (I suspect it's the shed but I thought I'd ask). 

She told me that she can't confirm anything that complicated and that I'd need to apply for some legal document (can't remember the name) that would say if I needed permission. This will cost £75! So I have to pay £75 to confirm that I will need to apply to building permission (which will then cost me more). This is very annoying. I was hoping that they would just know their own rules and be able to tell me.

I think I'm going to try to make sure my design keeps the ridge height below 2.5m in order to avoid the need for planning permission.


----------



## MikeG.

Make an appointment with a Planning Officer, take a drawing of what you propose and he will tell you within 1 minute whether you need PP or not. You have only been talking to receptionists. Most councils at the least operate a duty planning officer system, sometimes mornings only, who will give this sort of advice quickly.

Mike


----------



## TrimTheKing

What mike says. Also, our planning office have 'surgeries' where you can drop in, take a (metaphorical) ticket and sit down for a chat with an officer who will tell you exactly what you need to do (not whether it will be allowed, but what process to follow).


----------



## dh7892

I did ask for the duty planning officer but they were on the other phone so I guess that I got unlucky. 

I'll try again. If that means making an appointment, then I'll do it.

On further thinking though, I'd like to keep the ridge below 2.5m anyway if I can (save blocking out any more light to the veg patch).

What's the reslistic minimum pitch I can get away with?


----------



## mrbingley

Looking at that planning portal site. It's 2.5 metres height to the "eaves", not the ridge.

HTH
Chris.


----------



## Lons

My local planning and building control depts are very helpful. :? Bear in mind that they are under strict guidelines from their employers to remain non commital and that they deal very often with applicants whose final plans bear little resemblance to their initial enquiries.

Just another perspective on the subject however :-

Be very careful how you describe the intended use of the "shed" and my advice would be never to say you intend to use it as a workshop or to install machinery of any kind. 
Even hand and minor power tools can be veiwed with suspicion by some authorities due to a potential noise nuisance consideration.

Just my 2 pennerth seen several times first hand  

cheers 

Bob


----------



## Pvt_Ryan

To be honest.. I'd just do it. You can always do what the travelling community are so fond of doing and apply for the permission retrospectively.

I reckon as long as you don't water off the neighbours you'll be fine, at the end of the day unless someone is actively hunting for something to get you for they aren't going to know you don't have permission.

Certainly my parents have a garage loft conversion my dad did himself and he hasn't declared it, and I'm pretty sure he did all of the wiring to his garage himself.

BR & PP are retarded, the council put up a 10' fence out side my parents house to block off access to a field due to complains about youths using it for drinking. A neighbour on the other side had trees (trees were 20'+) along side said fence decided to cut them down. He then checked for PP to erect a fence. He was told the fence could be no more than 4'. So youths could enter the his garden climb the fence thereby bypassing the 10' council fence. In the end he ignored the council put up a 8' fence on the field side and then dropped to a 4' fence on the road side (a total of 7' long on that side).


----------



## sometimewoodworker

mrbingley":27cm3d4k said:


> Looking at that planning portal site. It's 2.5 metres height to the "eaves", not the ridge.
> 
> HTH
> Chris.



Yes except :? 



> Under new regulations that came into effect on 1 October 2008 outbuildings are considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:
> 
> * No outbuilding on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation.
> * * Outbuildings and garages to be single storey with maximum eaves height of 2.5 metres and maximum overall height of four metres with a dual pitched roof or three metres for any other roof.
> * Maximum height of 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within two metres of a boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.*
> * No verandas, balconies or raised platforms.
> * No more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
> * In National Parks, the Broads, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and World Heritage Sites the maximum area to be covered by buildings, enclosures, containers and pools more than 20 metres from house to be limited to 10 square metres.
> * On designated land* buildings, enclosures, containers and pools at the side of properties will require planning permission.
> * Within the curtilage of listed buildings any outbuilding will require planning permission.



http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonoutbuildings/


----------



## promhandicam

dh7892":j24j84tz said:


> I've just moved house and all my tools etc are currently in the loft doing no one any good. So, I want to build a shed to work in. . . .



One question - are you self employed? If so, and any connection can be made between your work and your shed then you may need PP even if the size is within permitted limits. I know one person at least who posts here had problems along these lines not so very long ago - not sure if it was resolved but he has recently started to rent his own premises.

Steve


----------



## Lons

Pvt_Ryan":20kyce80 said:


> To be honest.. I'd just do it. You can always do what the travelling community are so fond of doing and apply for the permission retrospectively.
> 
> I reckon as long as you don't pineapple off the neighbours you'll be fine, at the end of the day unless someone is actively hunting for something to get you for they aren't going to know you don't have permission.
> 
> .



I'd do the same in your situation. planning have much bigger fish to catch than a lowly shed errector :lol: 



> Certainly my parents have a garage loft conversion my dad did himself and he hasn't declared it, and I'm pretty sure he did all of the wiring to his garage himself



Your parents (or their beneficiaries) are very likely to have problems when it comes to selling the property without the relevant permissions and cirtificates of approval to show the purchasers solicitors IMO :? 

cheers

Bob


----------



## Pvt_Ryan

I don't think it will as I would imagine all he needs to do is tear up the boards (all screwed down) and/or remove the ladder and say it was just to lower the ceiling, then just disconnect the wiring going out.. 

But as far as I am aware there are no plans to sell the house..


----------



## Lons

Pvt_Ryan":2a35pg29 said:


> I don't think it will as I would imagine all he needs to do is tear up the boards (all screwed down) and/or remove the ladder and say it was just to lower the ceiling, then just disconnect the wiring going out..
> 
> But as far as I am aware there are no plans to sell the house..



Ah right - not a proper conversion then so no probs. :idea: 

There are a lot of people using loft space as "rooms", joists not reinforced, no proper stair access etc.

Not something I'd do personally as It isn't safe, especially in the event of fire IMO but fully understand why so many householders go down that route.

cheers

bob


----------



## Jake

It won't cause problems, and will be perfectly saleable without ripping anything out. It just won't add any real value to the house as it will be sold as "boarded out storage space". Very common.


----------



## Marchy

I must admit my experience has been similar to Big Shots in terms of non-commital planning officers. There's a uesful article here (Do I need planning permission for my shed?), which is more recent than the DIY source but basicaly a recap of the planning portal.

I hate to say it but it tempting to do first and ask later - so long as you're not going to p~ss off your neighbours. My neighbour had a long but narrow garden (like mine) and built a large 'shed' at the bottom which was totally within the planning rights but due to the narrowness of the gardens totally overshadowed my garden.


----------



## paul_david_thomas

I built a shed a few months ago. It was squeezed into a back garden of a house I rent out. It's measured 7m x 3.2m x 2.5m It had a pretty large roof overhang all the way around. Due to a little error on my behalf the she was 100mm to tall. I was dobbed in by some one and the planning enforcement officer came round. They were fine. I said, IF they wanted I would prop the shed roof on acro's, cut 100mm out of the shed and drop the roof back down. She went away and in the end said she would allow it. I then said I would not paint it dell-boy luminous yellow


----------



## billybuntus

The links in this thread appear to be out of date. I'm heading towards drunk and looking to buy a new house and the prereq is that I can have a workshop in the garden.....so before I commit to an offer I'm having a peek at this..

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permis ... /miniguide


----------



## Pond

billybuntus":2drc37dn said:


> The links in this thread appear to be out of date. I'm heading towards drunk and looking to buy a new house and the prereq is that I can have a workshop in the garden.....so before I commit to an offer I'm having a peek at this..
> 
> http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permis ... /miniguide



Having been through this shed building bo11oks myself, I would say you can read planning portals and 'permitted development' rights until you are blue in the face, but the only way to be sure is to speak to a planning officer at your local council, they will come out to the site and advise. 

And I can tell you from bitter experience, it pays to be sure. 

It's amazing how people who you thought were reasonable and nice neighbours become NIMBYs over the smallest thing. :evil:


----------



## BB73

Lol, my wife is a planning officer!


----------



## Coaster

Hi Folks, I'm intending to build a shed and just rang my local planning office who refused to discuss the matter. They are sending me a form to fill in but I really don't want to get involved with drawing plans.

My shed will be 12 feet square (13.38 sq. metres) and will be 1.1 metres from the boundary. My garden is huge and that represents nowhere near 50% of its area. It will be 2 metres high.

Having read this thread I get the distinct impression that I will not need planning permission. Can someone confirm that for me please?

I must say that you guys sound a lot more helpful than my local planning authority.


----------



## Coaster

Or maybe not.


----------



## Deejay

Morning Coaster

You said_ I really don't want to get involved with drawing plans._

A couple of freehand sketches with dimensions and a few photo's of the site should be enough to let the planners make a decision.

Might be a worth the effort to get something in writing.

Whereabouts are you?

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Woody Alan

If you are confident that you don't need planning permission and if is as described then I don't see the need to ask planning anything, especially if they can't answer simple questions on the phone. The main issue is, are you likely to be infringing? if so who will complain, do they have justification to complain i.e is it affecting their life in some way.
Even if you were to fractionally technically breach planning in some way, if to all practical purposes you are causing no harm or have ill intent, even after a visit from planning enforcement they won't neccessarily enforce because they have been mandated by the government not to chase people for money for planning if it is a given that they would get planning automatically.
For example I want to put up a fence between me and my neighbour of over 2metres because he has a utility window looking directly across the back of my house and his property is higher. He is in agreement about the fence height but wants to insist I get planning (which he can't until I do it). I called planning enforcement who sound more helpful than your lot and they told me unless I exceed 2.2 metres they won't enforce it'll go down as a technical breach. When I mentioned my neighbour had raised his ground before putting a summerhouse on it they said he is in breach because he's nearer than 2metres to the boundary and his summerhouse height is greater than 2.5metres from the original ground level. They are still not going to pursue it though. 
The planning officer actually told me to put it up at 2.2m and the worst that would happen if they really had to enforce would be the planning fee and I would definately get the permission anyway.

Alan


----------



## bingow

Hello ,

May be someone can help solve the problem i am facing now.
My garden is 50 meter long. Before building my garden room i read all the details on planning portal and came to conclusion of building garden room of 2.95 meter height (flat roof) and 30 sq meter area with 1m from one side of boundary line , 1.5m from another side and approximate 3m from rear side. The garden room construction is completed. Annoying neighbour has complained council about the garden room. My garden room is not causing any trouble to the neighbour, infact it is adjacent to their (small) garden shed. We donot overlook their garden as we dont have any windows at the rear or either side of our garden room. Infact it is around 3m away from their fence. Our neighbour can actually over look our garden from their top bedroom windows. Now the only mistake i did was to build garden room with 2.95 meter height which is not within 2m from all sides. 

Do you think enforcement officer will disapprove my outbuilding? How can i get out from this problem? Does applying for planning permission solve this?

Please help me with this.

Thanks.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

If your local office is anything like ours, go to see someone rather than phone. I did, over a few problems I had with my plans and they saved me probably top side of £1000. Carry your plans and any details with you and see how it goes.

Phil.


----------



## Lons

Do what Phil said and go to see a planning officer with all the information. Hold your hands up, say you built it in good faith in the belief you were following guidelines and ask his advice. Hopefully the worst scenario would be a retrospecting application and the fee.

What exactly is your neighbours complaint? If not justifiable, then it makes not difference to permission. It would need to be a serious inconvenience to them for the planners to refuse.

Bob


----------



## bingow

Thanks Phil and Bob for prompt reply. I have already sent council mail regarding all the details along with the outbuild pictures and dimensions around the boundary fence. Also explaining all the considerations before building it. But will do as you say. 
The complaint in the letter states "It is alleged that a detached timber outbuilding has been erected in the rear garden of your property without planning permission" . Complaint doesn't say anything about disturbance to the neighbourhood. It makes me angry as neighbour could have spoken to us directly first before logging a complaint. I have never troubled them ever.


Thanks,
Bini


----------



## bingow

Planning enforcement officer visited site and advised to apply for planning permission due to height of outbuilding. Will see how it gets through.


----------



## cammy9r

Hi, been lurking here on and off for a few years now and thought i would add to this post concerning Scottish law on planning permission for sheds.
As of the 6th Feb 2012 the rules are:

Class 3A.
(1) The provision within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse of a building for
any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of that dwellinghouse or the alteration,
maintenance or improvement of such a building.

(2) Development is not permitted by this class if—

(a) it consists of a dwelling;

(b) any part of the development would be forward of a wall forming part of the
principal elevation or side elevation where that elevation fronts a road;

(c) the height of the eaves would exceed 3 metres;

(d) any part of the development would exceed 4 metres in height;

(e) any part of the development within 1 metre of the boundary of the curtilage of the
dwellinghouse would exceed 2.5 metres in height;

(f) as a result of the development the area of ground covered by development within
the front or rear curtilage of the dwellinghouse (excluding the original
dwellinghouse and any hard surface or deck) would exceed 50% of the area of the
front or rear curtilage respectively (excluding the ground area of the original
dwellinghouse and any hard surface or deck);

(g) in the case of land in a conservation area or within the curtilage of a listed
building, the resulting building would have a footprint exceeding 4 square metres.

My local BCO was not concerned about out buildings provided it was over 5 metres from any dwelling, no one lived in it, there was no sanitary ware installed and no solid/fossil fuel heating. 
If any of this is breached then a building warrant would be needed.
As to boundary/construction materials it is whatever you choose be it brick or wood as long as it is over 5 metres from any dwelling.
Upto 15 sqm it can be made from twigs but from there to 30sqm it must be of sound construction to regs. This is not enforced unless over 30sqm, so how do they know? best be on the safer side though. With regards to height it follows with planning rules.
Edit: usual rules apply to installation of power supply if needed
That has been my experience with Renfrewshire Council, quite straight forward really with just a phone call. I started my build back in december but it has had a few setbacks, the latest being with Scottish Water.


----------



## Lons

cammy9r":f13d6167 said:


> it has had a few setbacks, the latest being with Scottish Water.



Hope that's with the water company and not the stuff we're getting from the sky this year :lol: :lol: Especially with what's predicted today / tomorrow :shock:


----------



## tack1000

Hello

First post so bear with me.

Read all that has been said about do's and don't on sheds.

My question is.

If the footprint of the shed was 10 SQm but the roof over hung one side or all the way round making it say 15 SQm what is the ruling based on, the plan view or the footprint?

I actually want a 30 SQm shed with an over hang to give and outside hard standing but under cover. This will take it over the Max 30 SQm rule IMHO

Thanks in advance.


----------



## mrpercysnodgrass

The regulations are for the footprint of the building, so you should be fine with an overhang and provided you comply with all the other regulations regarding the position of your workshop ect, (the distance of 1m from your boundary will be measured from the overhang to the boarder). You should not need planning permission up to a footprint of 30SQm unless it is a commercial enterprise, then you need planning permission no matter what size your workshop is.

This article explains it well http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permis ... buildings/

Hope this helps.

mrpercysnodgrass.


----------



## skipdiver

Can anyone confirm that you can only go to 2.5 MT height if within 2 metres of the boundary, and if so, is this a recent rule because i have built 2 block and tile workshops in the past and both were the maximum 30 sq mt floor area and both were 4 mts to the ridge. They were also both a metre from the boundary and on both occasions, the BCO turned up unannounced and left with no issues.?

I am about to break ground tomorrow on my latest workshop, having moved house at the weekend. I am not going as big as usual due to my narrow garden, but intend to build it 6mts long by 3.6mts wide and about 2 feet from the boundary fence for maintenance. It will be block and render with a tiled roof and more than 20 mts from the house. I intended to go 2.4 mts to the eaves and 4 mts to the ridge to allow sheet materials to be stood up inside and room in the roof for storage.

As i said, i have built bigger before closer than 2 mts to the boundary and had no issues when the BCO has turned up (no doubt sent by nosy neighbours) and was wondering if anything had changed since my last build in 2008.

Really want a 4mt high pitched roof but cannot come away from the boundary by 2 mts due to the narrow nature of my garden.


----------



## cammy9r

Hi Skipdiver, yes you are correct in that you can build no higher than 2.5m if within 2m from the boundary without planning permission. Do you get on well with neighbours. If yes tell them what you propose, if they are happy then you probably wont have any problems with planning.


----------



## skipdiver

cammy9r":1x99atex said:


> Hi Skipdiver, yes you are correct in that you can build no higher than 2.5m if within 2m from the boundary without planning permission. Do you get on well with neighbours. If yes tell them what you propose, if they are happy then you probably wont have any problems with planning.




Thanks for that. The neighbours seem fine but i only moved in last friday so not too sure yet.

My new garden isn't as big as my previous one and is long and narrow, so it had to be fairly tight to the boundary and i decided to scale it down from my other workshops and stick to the rules. Will put a 2.5 metre high flat roof on it despite me not liking flat roofs and will have to live with the smaller space and headroom. Already dug out the footings and am concreting tomorrow.

When finished, i will be adding an extension to my house, so will have BCO visiting in the near future, so can't really do anything i'm not supposed to in case they start asking questions.

I'll add on to it later when my house is finished and i have charmed the neighbours.


----------



## steve248

Waka":36v616wd said:


> I'm a bit confused (thats not hard) regarding the erection of something within 1 m of the boundary and planning permission. When I had my workshop extended a couple of years ago I followed the line of the existing building which is the actual boundary.
> 
> I put in an application with plans to see if I needed planing permission and the answer came back in writing as a no. Doesn't this contradict the 1 m boundary rule, or have I missed something?



As far as I am aware the issue of being within 1m of a boundary only applies if the pitch of the roof is over 2.5m.


----------



## skipdiver

The rule is that if it is within 2mts of the boundary, than no part of the building can be higher than 2.5 mts, otherwise planning permission is needed.

The 1mt thing is to do with building regs, which is a different issue. Has to be built from mainly non combustible materials if within 1mt of the boundary.

As for my workshop, it's been on hold due to the weather and me developing a chest infection which in turn led to an ear infection.

Managed in the last two weeks to get the walls up and get the roof on but then it turned too cold for the concrete floor to be laid, so waiting on a thaw and my bricky mate having the time to come and help me lay it. Then i can get the doors on and start to use it finally. My house is rammed with tools and rammel at the moment.

I decided in the end to put a pitched roof on mine and consequently went over the allowable 2.5mt height. I'll deal with the consequences if the planners turn up, but i doubt they will. Just couldn't live with a flat roof and the height restrictions.

Will get some photo's up when i get round to it.


----------



## woodfarmer

Years ago I put up a 20 x 10 foot shed. I rang my local council and they said provided there was no glass within 1 metre of the boundary and it was 5 metres from the house I did not need planning or any other permission. this was in a letter which I then kept with the deeds of the house. Interestingly it did not affect my rates either. No doubt things have changed. I had the devil of a time getting PP to build a poultry house and greenhouse here in France, but after arbitration it went through ( very grudgingly by the Mayor). He even as a last ditch attempt to stop it tried to get it included in industrial agricultural buildings, but my replies to the 18 page "dossier" made a complete nonsense of it and I know he did not send it off as I handed in the reply and got the permission the following morning.


----------



## WoodySteve

I've not long built my 18ft L x 8ft W x 7ft H. shed in my back garden i just built it, as long as its not made from bricks its ok ,
Thats what my local council said, and they said what a lovely job you have made building it. Not bad for my 1st shed build. 

Steve


----------



## JJ Woodman

Planning permission from the council is a piece of cake. Planning permission from the girlfiend... Another matter


----------



## paulrockliffe

Easier to obtain planning forgiveness than planning permission!


----------



## Halo Jones

I have previously posted below in another thread but someone pointed out the sticky so thought I would also add it here. Maybe useful for those north of the border!

I would like to add the following diagram from the Scottish government guide to permitted development.






This suggests to me that even if you are within 1m of the boundary you can still have a higher workshop than 2.5 m. Of course this might only apply to Scotland, but I thought it was interesting and goes against the common conception that you have to be 2m from the boundary to enjoy high headspace.

mods- I hope I'm not breaking any kind of copyright pasting that page from the government document!


----------



## kdampney

Re-posted from another thread, I hope these are useful. The viewpoint is from the back of the garden, looking back towards the house.

Source: Planning Portal - Outbuildings

*Planning Permission*
Assuming you're doing something straightforward (that is, not building forward of your house, not having a veranda/balcony/raised platforms, not building over half your garden, not in a conservation area/National Park/AoNB/World Heritage Site, etc., not a listed building) then the only requirements to avoid Planning Permission are:

Outbuildings and garages to be single storey with maximum eaves height of 2.5 metres and maximum overall height of four metres with a dual pitched roof or three metres for any other roof.
Maximum height of 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within two metres of a boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.












So if you wanted: 2 storeys; or a 3.5m high dual-pitched roof; or 3m high near the boundary; you'll need to apply for PP. Otherwise it's within 'permitted development', not needing planning permission.

*Building Regs*
Assuming you're doing something workshoppy (that is, no sleeping accommodation, not a garage attached to a home, not a carport) then the main requirements to avoid Building Regs are:

The floor area of the building is less than 15 square metres.
The floor area of the building is between 15 square metres and 30 square metres and the building is either at least one metre from any boundary or it is constructed of substantially non-combustible materials*.
* The exact definition seems to vary between local authorities.












So if you wanted: 35 sq m floor area; or a 25 sq m timber worshop 0.5m from the boundary; you'll need to comply with BR. Otherwise Building Regs will not normally apply.


*In conclusion, to avoid PP: keep it low or away from the boundary; and to avoid BR: keep it small, away from the boundary or non-combustible.*

_N.B. This is my interpretation of the Planning Portal guidance - please let me know of any errors, and do your own research first!_


----------



## skipdiver

Very simple and useful pics there kdampney. Cheers.


----------



## bobblezard

Some years ago I built a 12x8ft timber workshop in my back yard, less than two metres from each of two boundaries. Height was less than 2.5M, Following a complaint from a neighbour I had a visit from a planning officer who agreed it was permitted development and provided a letter to that effect which came in handy when selling up.
Now moved into a new place and, as neighbours overlook the garden, am planning a covered walkway with a seating area looking back into the garden, this will be open on two or three sides does anybody have any experience of such structures and whether they need PP or to meet building regs? I will probably consult the planning office but thought I would ask here first


----------



## kdampney

Having requested clarification regarding 'substantially non-combustible materials' from my local authority (Leicester City Council), they said:



> Non-combustible materials would be brickwork, blockwork or concrete.
> 
> 'Substantially' would be defined as the walls being built of these materials but doors, windows and the roof structure (with a suitable covering) could be timber if required.
> 
> If it is within 1m of the boundary at any point and constructed of timber then you would have to apply for Building Regulation approval and walls within 1m of the boundary would have to have the requisite fire resistance ie 30 minutes. The board below (http://www.insulationshop.co/versapanel_cement_bonded_particle_board_10mm.html) or one similar would be used on the external face of the wall and a plasterboard on the inside face. Only the walls facing the boundary would need this fire resistance. Flooring etc is your choice and if the building is detached and classed as unheated then the insertion/use of insulation is up to you.
> 
> The main issues are fire spread and electrics (if installed) in this type of building



I don't want to bother with building regs approval, but want more than 15 sq m, so will plan to keep at least 1m away from the boundary!


----------



## angelboy

If I remember correctly, for building regs, the floor area is measured from the inside not the outside. 

Also, this depends on each LA but they generally don't go out looking for people that have breached planning and building regs. It only usually becomes and issue if you get grassed up from a neighbour or when you come to sell your house and you have to legally declare any building works within a set period. 

So, if you're unlucky enough to be grassed up then the council are obligated to investigate and how you deal with it from this point is important. If you play ignorant but say you'll meet all the relevant breaches then they're happy because it's problem solved. If you resist then they have to consider enforceable action and serve an enforcement notice. These enforcement notices don't come without very careful and consideration from the LA as they have to go up the ranks and be signed off by the principle planner mainly because they have to consider the very expensive costs involved with proceeding to court. Whether it's a simple shed breach or a property built without planning permission, the courts charge a initial set fee, along with the legal teams - of course, the complexity of the case increases costs so we can assume that a shed would be far less than a property, but you get my drift. The judges also don't look favourably on LA's that bring trivial matters to the courts. Generally, judges don't like precious court time being wasted by people that can't act in a sensible manner, which also includes taking legal proceedings for minor offences, such as a shed that built too close to a boundary or is a little taller than the regulation allow.

It's luck of the draw and depends how much balls you have - or maybe, how much you're taking the water - don't build a habitable space in the back garden that blows all the height, space and location restrictions totally out of the water and expect to get away with it - but a small breach in the laws might see it being overlooked with no further action being taken (even an official letter from the LA that says as such!)

Now, I'm not a planning officer but I have had first hand experience with a breach of planning and I've spoken at length on numerous occasions to the enforcement officers about what tricks some people pull and how most LA's resources are stretched beyond capacity. I also recorded all my conversations with the enforcement officers, just in case.....

So only you know what location you're in and where you're planning to build, how long you think you'll be living at your property, how well you get on with the neighbours, what type of risk you're prepared to take and what you're thinking of building that might not fall exactly within the regulations.


----------



## DBT85

One question I have if there's anyone still looking.

For a flat/single pitch roof it's a max height of 3m and 2.5m to the eaves. 

I'm still not 100% on the definition of eaves and I've seen different suggestions.

Are the eaves 

a) measured from the ground to the top of the roof where it meets the wall?
b) measured from the ground to the underside of the roof joists where it meets the wall?
c) measured from the lowest or highest side of a single pitched roof?

IE, can I have a single pitched roof that starts at 3m and goes down to 2.5m so that inside (if I wanted) there would be circa 2.7-2.2m of headroom once the beams are i place, as shown in kdampneys image?


----------



## MikeG.

The eaves in planning terms is the height of the imaginary intersection of the plane of the wall and the roof covering. So imagine laying a piece of wood on top of the roof at the verge, and having another pressed up against the wall. Where they would overlap (on the underside) if they could is the height of the eaves.


----------



## skipdiver

It's the highest part of the ground adjacent to the building. I was reported by a neighbour when i built a workshop at my last house and the only thing they could get me on was the height. I measured 4 mts from 2 courses below damp, where the concrete path was eventually going around the building. The path wasn't yet in, so it was 4.1 (ish) mts to the dirt. They made me lower the roof by 100mm, which i complained about very loudly, but had to do it in the end. Once the concrete path went in, it was 3.9mts from path to top of the ridge board. The roof wasn't tiled when they measured, so it ended up higher anyway, once the tiles and ridges went on. So it's a bit arbitrary really.

So if you keep it 3mts from the highest part of the ground to the boarding on top of the rafters, you will be okay, but then it depends on how fastidious/pernickety the the inspector is if you have a visit.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":3khyl315 said:


> The eaves in planning terms is the height of the imaginary intersection of the plane of the wall and the roof covering. So imagine laying a piece of wood on top of the roof at the verge, and having another pressed up against the wall. Where they would overlap (on the underside) if they could is the height of the eaves.


Right, so its the underside, but of the highest point of the slope or the lowest, outside face or inside? Over a 4" wall thickness the difference wouldn't be much, just nice to know 

I did a very technical drawing 








skipdiver":3khyl315 said:


> It's the highest part of the ground adjacent to the building. I was reported by a neighbour when i built a workshop at my last house and the only thing they could get me on was the height. I measured 4 mts from 2 courses below damp, where the concrete path was eventually going around the building. The path wasn't yet in, so it was 4.1 (ish) mts to the dirt. They made me lower the roof by 100mm, which i complained about very loudly, but had to do it in the end. Once the concrete path went in, it was 3.9mts from path to top of the ridge board. The roof wasn't tiled when they measured, so it ended up higher anyway, once the tiles and ridges went on. So it's a bit arbitrary really.
> 
> So if you keep it 3mts from the highest part of the ground to the boarding on top of the rafters, you will be okay, but then it depends on how fastidious/pernickety the the inspector is if you have a visit.



Oh this part I know for dual pitched, its for single pitch that I'm wondering whether its the front eaves that would be higher than the rear eaves. On a dual pitch both would be the same so all you need to know is whether its to the underside or the top side specifically for the eaves measurement, not the total height.

I'd be unlikely to get a visit at all tbh, I live 100 yards from my nearest neighbor and while a stickler for rules and regs, hes also my father in law! Surrounding me on 3 sides are an empty field and a 4 acre woodland!


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85":2t40fpyu said:


> MikeG.":2t40fpyu said:
> 
> 
> 
> The eaves in planning terms is the height of the imaginary intersection of the plane of the wall and the roof covering. So imagine laying a piece of wood on top of the roof at the verge, and having another pressed up against the wall. Where they would overlap (on the underside) if they could is the height of the eaves.
> 
> 
> 
> Right, so its the underside........
> I did a very technical drawing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .......
Click to expand...


No! Not the underside. Your point B. I meant the underside of a notional piece of wood lying on top of the roof.

The eaves is the lowest edge of the roof. The other end is the ridge. Ground level is more pragmatic........the highest part of the natural ground level around the building.


----------



## DBT85

MikeG.":1rdxfvv7 said:


> No! Not the underside. Your point B. I meant the underside of a notional piece of wood lying on top of the roof.
> 
> The eaves is the lowest edge of the roof. The other end is the ridge. Ground level is more pragmatic........the highest part of the natural ground level around the building.


Ah ha, my misunderstanding! Apologies.

So I can indeed go from 3m high at the ridge to 2.5m high at the eaves and end up with 2.2m headroom ish at the lowest point inside. More than enough. Thanks for the clarification. 

Thanks Mike, your help in this and the workshop construction thread is most illuminating!


----------



## gwr

Hi i have had a builder around to give me a price for building me a block shed and he has gave me some food for thought.

I was going to build 9x4.5 meters internal size with pitched roof which would require both PP and BC iwas going to have a portion of this space separated with a stud wall for a small gym and the bigger space for woodworking hobbys.

Builder has suggested building within permited development 7.5 x4 or similar then adding a small timber frame shed on the side for a gym as a totaly separate building.

Do you think this would be ok or could i run into problems from local council?


----------



## MikeG.

What the buildings are made of is *almost* entirely irrelevant. Other than in certain designated areas (including national parks) you can cover up to half of your land with outbuildings (so long as they are behind the front of the house), without Planning Permission, so long as each individual building falls within the various dimensions given for Permitted Development. I would always advise clients to separate the two buildings, even if by only a few inches, such that they could never be construed as one.

The 7.5 x 4 m workshop was obviously given as an example such that it falls outside the purview of Building Control. Please note that this is determined on internal floor area, not the footprint, so you can actually build slightly bigger than the suggested size without needing inspection. On a practical note, I would suggest going for something slightly wider than this, and shorter if necessary to compensate. Planning a workshop is just easier with a wider space. 4.8 metres roof spans are easily achievable with standard timber sizes, but over that it gets a bit more complex, so I'd suggest heading towards that dimension for your width if that fits with the area you have available. With about 150 for wall thickness, that would give you an internal width of some 4.5m, which would lead to a max. length of about 6.6 metres.

However, as I've said previously, if you use blocks for your walls you'll end up wasting a lot more space because you'll then have to add insulation. Timber frame produces a much narrower wall.


----------



## gwr

Mike that is exactly the type of info I was looking for and it's much appreciated. I did look at eternit cladding and think it would look better but I keep going back to block for several reasons but could be totally wrong in that respect.

I feel block and dashed just seems more secure, I know the main entry points would be doors and windows and if they want in they will get in. Also trying to keep the noise to a minumum is a concern I just feel block with timber stud full of insulation it will help more so than timber frame but I could very well be of the mark.

An interior size of 4.5 x 6.6 does seem a more useful space and is doable with the space I have thanks for pointing that out.

The builder can't start until late may early June so I still have time to make any small changes.


----------



## MikeG.

You're choice entirely. I would just say that I have never known a shed broken into via the walls. It's almost always the door, and very occasionally the window. And of course, there is no reason at all why you can't have a rendered timber frame workshop (my last one was exactly that). You just need to design in some airflow behind the render, and that is easy.


----------



## dom68

hi can anyone tell me if any overhang on the roof will count towards how close the building is to the boundary or is it just the base of the building? 

thanks.


----------



## MikeG.

Yeah, it counts. Even the gutters do.


----------



## Miffer

Just a quick question if you don't mind. With regards to building regs I want to build a workshop and gym that will be approx 7m x 6.8m so will fall under building regs, I'd rather it not so could I build it as two separate buildings but only a couple of inches apart to get around the building regs and then at some later date join them together after getting photographic evidence that they were indeed two separate buildings when built?

Cheers,

Brian


----------



## MikeG.

The standard answer is to build them as 2 separate buildings, as you suggest. I wouldn't suggest ever connecting them, as you never know......

Just a tip, about those dimensions. It is best to try to keep outbuildings down to under 5.1m in width, particularly because that is the maximum length of readily available timber (longer is generally scarcer or special order, and more expensive), but also because big spans produce big rooves, which can be ugly, and are generally expensive.


----------



## Miffer

Thanks for the advice Mike. I'm stuck with having to do it as wide as that because I'll dividing it down the middle, gym one side and workshop the other I need access doors for each on the front, the gym side will be too close to the fence and to be honest the workshop will be even though I'll have a bigger gap but getting machines and timber in would be a problem at the side.
So each side of the building is only going to be 3.4m wide with a pitched roof across that width supported by what was going to be a centre dividing wall which might be the outside wall now!


----------



## jacko

I'm liking the concept of 2 separate sheds to sneak under the 15m2 rule for building control. 

Does anyone have any experience of what the requirements actually are for building control if you build within 1m of the boundary? The part that concerns me is the "constructed of combustible materials" which for timber frame sheds is definitely the case. I'm just wondering if it then goes into needing to withstand fire for 30 mins etc and needing special cladding or sheet material or the like for that. 

In my borough, Greenwich, apparently you need to submit a Building Notice prior to work starting, with a £320 fee and plans attached, to start the conversation.


----------



## MikeG.

Masonry is of course fire resistant (bricks, block, stone). So is render (sand & cement or lime). There are cementitious boards which look like timber feather edge boards, and they're fire-resistant, (although you may need to provide the council with product information from the manufacturer). Windows aren't, whatever they're made of.


----------



## devonwoody

If the council get concerned re timber sheds near a boundary why is timber fencing no less a risk? :evil:


----------



## MikeG.

devonwoody":1kqdwv5b said:


> If the council get concerned re timber sheds near a boundary why is timber fencing no less a risk? :evil:



Years of experience has taught us, devonwoody, that fences catch fire rarely, and that buildings catch fire more often. You can't have electrical faults or store flammable liquids or gas in a fence.


----------



## autotrans

also permitted development


----------



## Hobbo

I'm really struggling to find a straight answer on the maximum size of an outbuilding under permitted development- all government and local council guidelines seem very vague with under 20m2 being ok, but 20m2-30m2 "probably ok".

The focus seems to be on maximum height and no more than 50pc of existing garden. If I'm looking to build a 7x4m timber framed workshop do I need permission?

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere I couldn't find it!


----------



## MikeG.

It's not vague. "50% of the original land around the house" is very clear. You want to build 28 sq metres, so if you have more than 56 sq m of land around your house, you don't live in a National Park, AOB or World heritage Site, and if your permitted development rights haven't been previously removed, then you can build that (footprint) size without Planning Permission, so long as you then follow the further restrictions on eaves and ridge height, and location (back garden......but it's more complicated than that).

If you keep the building away from the boundary, you also won't need Building Regs approval (and by the way, you could go up to 30 sq metres internally without troubling the Building Inspector).


----------



## Hobbo

Thanks MikeG. I've read elsewhere and seen on Youtube that if I build next to the boundary (and I've got a typical UK garden so is difficult not to) and if I go over 15m2 I don't need to involve building control as long as it is 'not substantially made of combustible material'. Wood being a bit burny means although I'm under the 50% of original land and under 30m2- I'll still need to involve building control?

That's my confusion- planning portal is clear about height, square metres, percentage of original land, but seems vague around this point- I can't find a definitive answer.

I also don't understand why I can't have a veranda?! I'm planning to have a workshop with a really big overhang, sort of like a covered area sheltered from the sun and rain, definitely not a veranda.. ;-) has anyone got any advice on whether building control ever has an issue with a workshop having a veranda?


----------



## MikeG.

The reason for your confusion is that you are mixing up 2 entirely different elements.....Planning Permission and Building Control. 

Planning Permission (your permitted development rights) is as I described.........it's about the size and height you can build without permission.* WHAT* you are allowed to build.

Building Control is about *how *you build your building. Different regime, different people, different rules. It is these people who are interested in whether your building will burn down and threaten the neighbouring property. If you keep 1 metre away from the boundary and under 30 square metres, then there are no building regs implications (other than the normal electrical safety ones). If your out building is under 15 sq m then there are no circumstances in which Building Control comes into play. If it is between 15 and 30 sq m, which is what yours is, then it is exempt from regs if more than a metre from the boundary, or, if it closer to the boundary than that, it is of non-combustible construction. (_This latter point is almost always interpreted as "that wall closest to the boundary must be non-combustible, the rest can be anything you like", although sometimes it is "anything within a metre of the boundary must be substantially non-combustible, the rest can be made of anything you like"_).

If you still aren't clear, then why not post a quick sketch of what you are proposing, including your boundaries.


----------



## Hobbo

Ah, that makes sense. Ideally I'm looking to avoid building control, my previous experience with extensions ranged from really helpful to seemingly going out of their way to be bloody minded.

That also makes sense why some people are talking about building 2 separate outbuildings of 15m2 which I'm starting to prefer the idea of. Thanks for your patience!


----------



## Hobbo

Right, final questions on permitted development..

Can you sanity check my understanding here? If I wanted to build a workshop within 1m of my boundary, over 15m2 internal dimensions but under 30m2, with maximum height overall of 2.5m, and as long as I haven't gone over the 50pc rule- I can do this without involving BC as long as the party wall is 'substantially non-combustible'? 

If the party wall is timber framed, clad in metal sheathing (same material as I'm planning for the roof), with rockwool or similar insulation and plasterboard instead of osb- would that count as non-combustible? Block or brick isn't an option for me unfortunately.


----------



## MikeG.

Yes, to all that, except it is only the outer face of the wall which needs to be non-combustible. You don't need plasterboard internally. Be a bit careful with "metal", because my understanding (and this isn't my field) is that aluminium can be thought of as combustible whereas steel isn't. I would check with the supplier. There are alternatives, such as cementitious boards (Eternit is one such) which mimic timber feather edge boarding, and are non-combustible. I think they're pretty cheap, too. The "substantially" part of the non-combustible phrase means that such items as gutters and rafter feet or fascias are generally excluded from the requirement.

The only other thing regarding BR you need to comply with is electrical safety, which will need testing and certificating by an electrician.


----------



## Hobbo

Perfect, thank you.


----------



## treeturner123

Hobbo

Just a note that, since the Grenfell Tower fire, Building Control departments have tightened up their view on fire resistance to buildings close to a boundary.

My experience with sheds is that they need to know that there is no means by which a fire can spread from inside the shed outwards so either the inner panels need to be shown, via manufacturer's details, to be fire resistant, or the external envelope does.

Phil


----------



## Hobbo

Thanks Phil, just to be safe I think I'll go for belt and braces- steel cladding (roof sheets), fire retardant Insulation panels and plasterboard internally.


----------



## Baja-king

Have a look at Cedral Cladding

It's A rated for fire suppression, I used it on my Garden workshop build (20m2)
I wasn't required to fireproof anything else...


----------



## MikeG.

Baja-king":y5ohosvm said:


> Have a look at Cedral Cladding........



Yep, that's one of a multitude of cementitious boards, which I mentioned previously:



MikeG.":y5ohosvm said:


> ......... There are alternatives, such as cementitious boards (Eternit is one such) which mimic timber feather edge boarding, and are non-combustible........


----------



## Mutley Racers

Baja-king":1hxxiazs said:


> Have a look at Cedral Cladding
> 
> It's A rated for fire suppression, I used it on my Garden workshop build (20m2)
> I wasn't required to fireproof anything else...



Looks awesome. Well done


----------



## Mutley Racers

Love this site and this thread. Lots of useful info but still I am confused.

Finally, I am managing to get some cash in to think about the workshop/studio build for me and the wife. Looking on the planning portal last night I see to be higher than 2.5 metres I need to be 2 metres away from the boundary. For the shed the size we would like it would take up a fair bit of our garden (290m2) with other plans and 3 kids need space to expend their energy.

So, does anyone know if a workshop can be a single storey extension to the property? Not really what I want as I want a shed but it does not need planning and I can go up 4 metres and out 8 metres (as long as no neighbours complain) . I would like to convert the garage into a utility and leave an access on the right (looking from the van photo) to walk to the workshop with sheet materials etc.

The property is on a slope and so where do you start your level from or do you just add steps. The floor of the garage and roof of the garage would need to be raised to get into the house from the utility and so on. Any way, it is all rather quite overwhelming. I wanted this to be a project I could do myself but an extension would be asking too much. 

One more question, as we are on a slope, the rear of the house has a large fall to the garden. On the planning portal it says you cannot build a deck higher the 30cms off the ground. So do I have to build this deck this height and then steps down onto this? There used to be a deck and concrete verandah all the way around as you can see from the dodgy conservatory.

Any advice appreciated. 

Regards Lee


----------



## MikeG.

Oooh, interesting one. I've never thought of that. 

As far as I recall, there is nothing in the Permitted Development stuff which defines the use of house extensions. However, you might run into Building Regulations issues for a number of reasons. I think I'm right in saying that such an extension would be controllable, so would have to be built to BR......thus building as per my details (linked to in my signature) wouldn't be possible, and the foundations would need to be full depth etc. Add on the inspection fees, and this would be an expensive route to go down compared to building an independent lightweight structure.

Don't be shy of a planning application. Design the shed you want, rather than the shed which falls within PD, drop it on here and we'll see what the best way forward is.


----------



## Mutley Racers

MikeG.":2izzx4qf said:


> Oooh, interesting one. I've never thought of that.
> 
> As far as I recall, there is nothing in the Permitted Development stuff which defines the use of house extensions. However, you might run into Building Regulations issues for a number of reasons. I think I'm right in saying that such an extension would be controllable, so would have to be built to BR......thus building as per my details (linked to in my signature) wouldn't be possible, and the foundations would need to be full depth etc. Add on the inspection fees, and this would be an expensive route to go down compared to building an independent lightweight structure.
> 
> Don't be shy of a planning application. Design the shed you want, rather than the shed which falls within PD, drop it on here and we'll see what the best way forward is.



Thanks for the reply. Been having issues sending pictures.


----------



## Mutley Racers

Here I go...please try and ignore the carbuncle of a conservatory. It is a utility at mo.


----------



## Mutley Racers

Sorry it is in another post


----------



## Mutley Racers

We would prefer to have the shed on the back fence as that way our garden doesn't lose much shade. I would like it to be 4 metres to the top so this would mean planning permission is needed.

Has anyone applied for planning permission on their build which is close to a fence and a decent height? Is is a 50/50 chance?

Cheers


----------



## MikeG.

It's very difficult to compare like that. It is going to depend on relationships to other buildings, neighbours' patios, etc, and these things vary with every different house/ circumstance. Ask yourself if your proposed building adversely affects your neighbour in any way. Does it cast shadow where they don't want it? Will the noise affect them sitting out on a summer evening. Does it spoil a view? My experience is that these sort of things are usually uncontentious, but occasionally they run into all sorts of problems. My general advice is that people are unnecessarily wary of planning applications. 

The first thing you should do, if you aren't planning on employing an architect/ technician immediately, is to draw a scale plan of your property, and your neighbouring properties, and add your proposed shed in. There are plenty of sort-of free mapping resources online, and a screengrab from one of those can be a useful starting point for the exercise. Post your drawing here and you'll get a comment or two, no doubt.


----------



## Mutley Racers

Hi Mike

Thanks for the reply.

When we bought the house you couldn't see any of the houses at the back fence as conifers covered the area. So the neighbours should be happy. Sound wise it is only a hobby so not much noise. In your shed, is the sound still quite loud with the insulation etc from outside?

We are planning on getting proper plans made up. You said you could possibly do it from photos as I am far from you. First though we need to determine the best location for the shed due to shade, future landscaping possibilities and house renovations. Wow, it really is hard to plan ahead as we want to do so much down the line with the space but not quite sure what.

Sometimes I think just knocking down all the buildings and and putting in a hauf hause would be better. But, that's a lot of cash just to get rid of the rubble!!!


----------



## MikeG.

It is certainly possible to do things from a distance, with digital site mapping available and so on. However, I am a little busy trying to fit stuff in before my summer break. I doubt I could look at your project until the second half of August.


----------



## DoctorWibble

Building right on the boundary is unlikely to be allowed for a bunch of reasons. Not least you'd need access to neighbours gardens for construction and maintenance. Then there are shading considerations: boundary construction rather obviously solves your problem at the expense of your neighbours. Then there are fire hazards : the old rules about being a metre from fences (now two metres) specifically referred to combustible structures. You might get permission to build a little closer than two metres in non combustible brick if the height/roof line is neighbour friendly and you have not presented the neighbours with the long wall of a an outlandishly large building but expect planning to be wary and conscious that other people in the area may copy you.
The permitted development height is calculated from the surrounding (natural) ground level. So if you really want to stretch the height rules you could always sink the shed floor. Its a lot of digging and you'd need to be very careful about arranging effective drainage, retaining walls and so forth but you could gain an extra foot or so in internal height this way without falling foul of planning. But better, I feel, to stay well away from the boundaries, it will save wasted time, planning fees and (possibly) soured relationships with neighbours.


----------



## MikeG.

DoctorWibble":37zst9ff said:


> Building right on the boundary is unlikely to be allowed for a bunch of reasons. ...... Then there are fire hazards : the old rules about being a metre from fences (now two metres) specifically referred to combustible structures.......



Again I would caution about mixing up Planning Permission and Building Regulations. It is perfectly possible (indeed, common), to get planning permission to build something which isn't permitted by Building Regulations. Your advice here is conflating the two different things. I would also say that in tight urban settings it is extremely common to see outbuildings used as boundaries, so it can be done...........but _*how*_ it is done is critically important. I agree with your implication that maintaining reasonable relationships with your neighbours is important.


----------



## colinc

Hi,

I thought that I would mention my own experience building my workshop. The point being that getting planning permission is not something to be worried about and you ought not to compromise on what you want to build in order to avoid it. My experience with the planning officer was very positive, and I was left thinking that I did have their support in order to enhance my property, as long as I considered the surroundings and respected the rules. Never did I get the idea they would try to stop or frustrate me.

At the time we had downsized to a bungalow and I had lost my three car sized brick/tile garage workshop. The size of the plot made just under 30 sq. metres a practical size for a new workshop so that was the starting point. I wanted a pitched roof for internal height and to build close to the boundary (about 60 cm away to give maintenance access on all sides). The height meant I needed planning permission but the overriding thing for me was that I wanted to be upfront and get approval in case anyone started complaining later. This way the Parish Council got a look at it too and everyone got a chance to complain up-front. 

I did my own planning drawings (used a free 2d cad package Draftsight) which were very simple. You can do sketches on paper though. They don't need to be complicated and can be scanned and submitted electronically. I provided elevations, a floor plan and a location plan showing where it was on the site together with a location map downloaded from Ordnance Survey.

Because of the proximity to the boundary the planning application referred to the construction as 'substantially incombustible materials', but showed the roof as Marley tiles and the cladding as Marley Cedral fibre-cement timber plank effect boards. You need to describe the external finishes, window colour etc., as they have relevance to the planners. They are not interested in the construction details though.

The application took a couple of months to process but came back approved with no questions or conditions. I then had to work out the construction details, but that was a different problem and can be another discussion!

Anyway, the point of this was to say don't compromise to avoid planning permission, work within the rules and it should be easy, just go for it......

regards

Colin


----------



## J-G

colinc":3pqdujp0 said:


> ...I did my own planning drawings (used a free 2d cad package Draftsight) which were very simple.


Just a caveat here - DraftSight have made a decision to stop their 'Free' version at the end of this year. Not only that, when you try to open the program it will 'Phone Home' and simply close if you don't have a valid (paid for) licence. If you don't have an internet connection, the program closes anyway!

This effectively means that any existing drawings will not be available unless you have another program (AutoCAD) which can read .DRG files.

Whether or not pressure from long-term existing users will make them change this policy is yet to be determined.


----------



## colinc

Ok, 

thanks for the update, I hadn't heard that. Draftsight is not an option if you want free software, which is a shame as it has been useful to many people. There are alternatives, but for the purpose described a pencil and paper works well enough  

I work for Trimble so should probably be pushing Sketchup anyway.

regards

Colin


----------



## J-G

colinc":q16ah9ud said:


> ...so should probably be pushing Sketchup anyway.


I would always recommend SketchUp - though not later than 2014 for a truly 'Free' version.

It is much easier to master than any of the AutoCAD look-alikes for anyone who is less than familiar with 'technical drawing'. I'm a time-served Tool-maker having spent quite a time in the Drawing Office but even I find AutoCAD well less than intuitive!


----------



## stuartpaul

Downsizing means I'm about to loose my nice cosy, spacious double garage and move to a single one. I'm looking to build an 'annex' off the back of the garage that will become the hand-tool area (access by taking out existing garage window on back wall and forming opening). Initial drawing gives me a floor area of just over 14 sq metres. Roof height will also be below 2.5 m as I'm close to the boundary and don't want to have to go down the PP route if I don't have to.

Slightly confused over BR requirements. If over 15 sq metres and closer than 1 metre then the substantially non combustible clause applies. If under 15 sq metres and closer than 1 metre are there any issues to worry about? Searching the planning portal and other sites (as well as here) lead me to believe that I can timber clad and it's OK. I'm happy to use any of the cement boards if I have to.

I've attached initial design idea.


----------



## MikeG.

stuartpaul":34jt0hrb said:


> ....... If under 15 sq metres and closer than 1 metre are there any issues to worry about?.......



No. Your electrics will need certifying, but that's it.


----------



## stuartpaul

Thanks Mike, appreciated.

Timber cladding on the back instead of cement board will save me a small fortune. 

The build will follow your principles and I have several questions about detailing but I’ll start a separate thread when work commences.


----------



## lurker

I am looking to buy a bungalow and am thinking about how I will accommodate a workshop.

One boundary is a Victorian cemetery and another is bottom of a school playing field.
So I don’t want to alert the council to what I plan. Thereafter I will risk them not noticing.

I want to put the back of the workshop right against the boundary so that the back wall forms part of the security boundary ( no fence were currently there is one)
As there is nobody living close to these boundaries I guess I don’t have to worry about fireproofing.
I was thinking of pent roofs so the back might be high.
I believe 2.5 metres is ok?? But not legally 3?
I may risk going To 3, as the hedge remnants on the council’s side are a good 4 metres.
Am I correct in thinking that after 4 years the council cannot legally do anything about it?


----------



## MikeG.

The council can't take enforcement action after 4 years from completion of works* to a dwellinghouse*, but that doesn't make the thing lawful. You would need to then apply for a Certificate of Lawfulness, and this would be necessary if selling the house or remortgaging, for instance. However, I want to stress that this relates to the house, and I have no idea what the situation is with regards to outbuildings. It may or may not be the same (and it's 10 years in the case of other types of buildings other than houses, so there is a chance that the 10 year thing applies to outbuildings).

As to your other questions.........I think I'd be letting the side down if I condoned building without permission or outside the parameters of Permitted Development Rights.


----------



## DBT85

I wonder if anyone has experience with my situation. My house was extended some 35 years ago by the previous owner (my wifes father). All permissions and such were granted and the work done.

I went to look at getting the planning maps whlile starting to fill out the details for a planning application and the maps do not represent this house since that change. 

So this is what all the maps show





but this is what has been here since about 1985


----------



## MikeG.

I hardly ever find any of those electronic drawings to be accurate or up to date. I simply add in my survey drawing as a substitute for what is shown. Your problem is that looks like a raster image rather than a .dwg or .dxf, so your changing it is a bit of a struggle. 

For a site location plan, they're not interested in the building, but in the location of the plot of land. However, for a 1:500 Block Plan, they'll want an accurate (but basic) outline of the house on the plot.

What are you trying to achieve?


----------



## DBT85

Oh it would just be for permission to put my workshop closer to the boundary. It's by no means essential, but owing to the angles of the garden to have one ends guttering 2m from the boundary would probably leave the other end 3.5m away. Just a waste of perfectly good space is all.

Would the issue of the raster image be becase I've just screenshotted it from a website? Would all providers be using the same raster image rather than a dwg or dxf?

Are the changes you mention doing possible for a layman like myself or is this a job for a pro?

Had an email back from the palnning dept (in under 24 hours which surprised me) saying the same as Mike. They accept location plans that are inaccurate just fine, but for block plans they need to be up to date and can be done by me so long as they scale correctly.

Mike, I assume you don't go via one of the website that the planning portal point you to to get your plans?

I've just seen that the ukmapcentre can supply dwg so I guess that's what I'd need to then edit it.

I hope you are Mrs Mike are feeling better btw, I only saw something this morning to suggest otherwise as I don't usually browse the bulk of the forum.


----------



## Spectric

Hi all

Couple of points, I have found planing is local council dependant and providing it is a "temporary construction" and complies with size limations you are ok. 

When I lived down south I built a large workshop at the bottom of the garden in blocks and it complied with all the local council rules as far as height and volume, I think it was a max of 30 cubic metres. Issues will arise if you have funny neighbours who complain, hence the need to comply with your local council.

In my case a council guy turns up and measures the structure and performed his calculations, with a big smile he said I exceeded the maximum volume and needed planning permision. I disagreed and gave him all the measurements I had done which were internal and did not include the volume of the six piers and after some discussion he had to agree. So always check with your local planing and get their limations and work within them for a peacefull time.


----------



## MikeG.

Spectric said:


> ...........providing it is a "temporary construction"........you are ok.
> 
> When I lived down south I built a large workshop at the bottom of the garden in blocks and it complied with all the local council rules as far as height and volume, I think it was a max of 30 cubic metres. Issues will arise if you have funny neighbours who complain, hence the need to comply with your local council.
> 
> In my case a council guy turns up and measures the structure and performed his calculations, with a big smile he said I exceeded the maximum volume and needed planning permision. .....



I'm afraid your post is more anecdote than information. The temporary construction thing is irrelevant, and whether or not Planning Permission is required does not depend on volume, but on height and relationship to boundary, and on area in relationship to the ground around the original building. There
is no such thing as a maximum volume for Permitted Development of outbuildings.


----------



## Spectric

_I believe that permited development of outbuildings was not around in the eighties and at the time Braintree and District councils planning department had stipulations on shed sizes based on volume and max height, I believe 4 meters to the apex or something less if pentroof or flat. _


----------



## Woody Alan

@DBT85 Hi I have access to land registry through work. I have found that my (octagonal) summerhouse has been added to the drawing and must be from satellite would guess OS mapping. If you no issue letting me have your postcode, via PM so it's not broadcast, I can look it up for free it doesn't cost me anything for map search so you can compare. Alan (edited to remove superfluous info)


----------



## MikeG.

DBT85 has just about finished his workshop, WA, so you're offer comes a little too late.


----------



## Woody Alan

Hmm, Classic case of not looking at the timeline. But the point I was trying to make still stands big brother is watching you from above. Or seaking over my fence and doing accurate drawings. The former I would think.


----------



## DBT85

They might have, but the extensions on thus house were fine 35 years ago and are still not on the os maps! In the end 2m from the boundary worked great for me so mine is (I think!) wholly compliant anyway.


----------



## JimTaylor

I needed full planning as my workshop is in front of the build line ( in front of the house). I could do what I wanted if it was to the side or behind the house.
No building regs, but needed by electrics signed off. It is 4.2 x 5m, should have made it bigger.


----------

