# Problem with sealing wood dye



## michaeljamesrutherford (22 Aug 2008)

Hello. This is my first post here, so please be gentle.

I am building some loudspeaker cabinets out of laminated birch plywood with hardwood veneered ends (the laminates are showing, and the veneering covers the outside softwood layer of the ply).

I have sanded these down to 240 grade with a random orbital sander and the result is beautifully smooth (you can't feel any grain or laminations).

I want to wax polish these, but first, I want to stain them.

I have stained them with a spirit based dye "Blackfriar Wood Dye", and then sealed them with "Liberon Spirit Based Sanding Sealer". The sanding sealer did not completely dry even after 24 hours, and when I sanded off as directed, the sandpaper clogged with dark gunge and the finish was far less smooth than when I started (prior to staining).

1. I have since learnt that spirit based stains/dyes should be sealed with a shellac sanding sealer. Was this my mistake?

2. I have also learnt that water based dyes can and should be sealed with my spirit based sanding sealer. Is this correct?

3. The 64,000 dollar question is: Given the above, which combination will provide me with the best finish (spirit based dye + shellac sealer, or water based dye + spirit sealer)? I will be using "Liberon Black Bison Fine Paste Wax" to complete.

Please help. I am very keen to get the best finish possible (very smooth with a hard glossy sheen.

Thanks in advance.

Michael

See photos: Luckily I had started with the bases, so not too much damage...


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## Woodfinish Man (22 Aug 2008)

In my opinion the best system is definitely:

Water Stain - Shellac Sanding Sealer - Wax Polish.

Not sure what BF wood dye is based on but it seems as though it is causing the problems. The only time I have heard of problems with SSS drying times are when the product is very old (e.g. 4-5 years). In saying that a drop of meths mixed into the SSS would sort that out.

Hope this helps but please come back with any other questions.

WM


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## michaeljamesrutherford (22 Aug 2008)

Thanks

I am going to go with water based stain, shellac sealer, and wax polish.

I will post to let the forum know how I got on.


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## DaveL (23 Aug 2008)

Hi Michael,

Welcome to the forum. 

I cannot help with your finishing problem, finishing is the part of a project I hate. :evil: 
Your pictures have been caught by our spam trap, here they are:-


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## [email protected] (23 Aug 2008)

Hi MJR, firstly I'll put money on it that the Blackfriars stain is oil based ie white spirit based which is NOT spirit based stain. If this is the case the stain needs to be left to dry overnight before coating with anything and once truly dried the stained wood surface needs to be lightly abraded with 0000 wire wool to remove any stain residue from the surface. How long did you leave the stain to dry for? Secondly, if you use a true spirit based stain and brush a sanding sealer over it which is itself spirit based, you will tend to drag the stain out of the wood surface which causes streaks in the staining - a way to over come this somewhat is to introduce a binder into the stain ie a dash of french polish. When brushing a finish, the trick is to use a spirt based finished over either an oil or water based stain. Advantages of oil stain is that its easy to use and has concistent coverage. Disadvantage is that it takes overnight to properly and completely dry. Also, there is sometimes a problem with finishes keying on to the stained surface. Water stain is ok but leaves raised grain and has to be put on quickly in hot weather and can leave wishy washy colours especially when using off the shelf products.

Have another experiment with the blackfriars stuff. Put some white spirit in a jar, drop some stain into it and if it disperses nicely, the stain is oil based. Then, stain some scrap wood and in the morning, brush coat on some shellac sanding sealer. Within an hour that finish should be dry, if its not the sealer is very old stock and should be binned. Try with with some fresh shellac sealer and that should be ok. If it dries ok, denib with some 400 grit and brush on another coat of sealer. Flat that with 0000 wire wool and wax. btw Black Bison is the worst wax, I've ever used :? Try get something other than this Liberon rubbish.....

PS spirit based sanding sealer is the same as shellac sanding . They all use spirits as a solvent ie usually meths but sometimes cellulose thinners.


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