# R.Groves & Sons Tenon Saw WIP FINISHED



## DannyEssex (10 Mar 2014)

Hi all

Yesterday I purchased this saw from the local car boot for the pricey sum of a whole pound! I liked the look and feel of it and have read about this maker on here a few times, so decided I will try and clean it up and make it a user.

It was in quite a state but there was no pitting on the plate so wasn't to hard to clean up. The etched logo was long gone before I cleaned it up which is a shame. You can just about see it. 

I started on the handle. It was quite grubby and had a fair bit of paint. I thought it would be easier to strip the saw down so did. I read some of Andy T's old posts about cleaning old tools old-tool-cleaning-part-3-paint-removal-with-turps-t64290.html?hilit=part%201 And used some Boiled Linseed Oil with a rag to clean the handle. I only wanted to get the dirt and paint off, and was happy with how it came out,

After Cleaning on the Left






I then set about cleaning the plate, After a few hours of elbow grease I went through 400,600,800, and 1000 grit wet and dry. I then polished it with some autosol. 

Then the Brass back, same as the plate.
















The teeth need re-cutting, so I filed the remains of the teeth off and levelled the plate off as best as I could. 






I have never tried this before, so I will practice on some other old boot sale saws that I brought to practice on. I think* I will file it 14 TPI, so will get a couple of 5 XX slim files from Workshop Heaven in the next few days. I'm in two minds weather to get the file holder from Veritas, or try with the small blocks of wood to set the various angles. Not sure just yet. I have watched Andys 2 hr video on youtube twice now and think I need to watch it again :lol: 


This is my first try at any kind of restoration so any tips would be great. 
Heres a couple of before pics :lol:


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## AndyT (10 Mar 2014)

Good start - it's on the way from being a bit of unconsidered junk to being an attractive saw that you will want to pick up and use. You just have the hard part to do now!

If I were you I would file it rip, not crosscut - which is what you want if cutting tenons or dovetails, and easier to do.

To get the spacing right you can print off a paper pattern and stick it on the saw - I did that ok on a much bigger saw once. 

Or another method, which I've not got round to trying, is to use a hacksaw blade as a guide to where the new gullets go. You get a 28 tpi blade, stick it to the saw with double sided tape, and file a mark every two teeth. Your file saw won't cut the hacksaw, so it could work as a depth limiter too, but the hard hacksaw will ruin the file if you touch it too much, so it's probably best to use it just to get the horizontal interval even, then take it off and complete filing down by eye.


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## DannyEssex (10 Mar 2014)

Thanks Andy, 

I was thinking of trying a hacksaw blade, also Bugbear sent me a link of his with some templates to print off. I have a few saws to play with, so will practice a bit before I touch this saw


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## Racers (11 Mar 2014)

Hi Danny

I did a complete retooth of a tenon saw using one of BB templates.
I started by doing only one pass with the file for each tooth then I repeated the whole process gradually deepening the cut, this makes it easer to even up the teeth, as you can see the size of the flat between each tooth and adjust the pressure on the file to even it up.

It took about 8-10 passes to cut them to the full depth.

Pete


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## Sheffield Tony (11 Mar 2014)

I also used the templates to re-tooth a tenon saw, but just marked each gullet position with a nick made with a junior hacksaw (a bluntish one seemed to work well), so that I could then take away the paper for a clearer view.

That's going to be a nice saw when you're done.


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## bugbear (11 Mar 2014)

Racers":3nnfk1xp said:


> Hi Danny
> 
> I did a complete retooth of a tenon saw using one of BB templates.
> I started by doing only one pass with the file for each tooth then I repeated the whole process gradually deepening the cut, this makes it easer to even up the teeth, as you can see the size of the flat between each tooth and adjust the pressure on the file to even it up.
> ...



Following this process, you could probably do the first 2 to 4 passes as pure rip (no fleam) all from the same side, which will be a little quicker and easier to do.

BugBear


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## Racers (11 Mar 2014)

Hi BB

That is indeed what I did.

Pete


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## Richard T (11 Mar 2014)

A brave thing to do. I shall be watching with interest ... from a safe distance.


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## carlb40 (11 Mar 2014)

Well done Danny and i too will be following with interest.


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## DannyEssex (11 Mar 2014)

I messed about with a practice saw this morning, using a hacksaw blade as the template. It seem ok, not as daunting as I was expecting it to be. Bugbear kindly sent me some images to print off, so will try that out. I have just won a saw vice on ebay and will picking that up Thursday, then I will order some new files from WH.

I have a question about starting the first file cut. Am i best to start in the middle of the template teeth? 

And jointing

does the saw plate HAVE to be perfectly flat, ie no daylight whatsoever if held up to a square face?


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## bugbear (11 Mar 2014)

DannyEssex":rrsatdyj said:


> I messed about with a practice saw this morning, using a hacksaw blade as the template. It seem ok, not as daunting as I was expecting it to be. Bugbear kindly sent me some images to print off, so will try that out. I have just won a saw vice on ebay and will picking that up Thursday, then I will order some new files from WH.
> 
> I have a question about starting the first file cut. Am i best to start in the middle of the template teeth?
> 
> ...



BTW - the templates are designed to be folded over the blade. If you just stuck 'em to one face, they'd come off.

Nah - you can't joint teeth perfectly, so why joint the plate perfectly?

BugBear


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## Racers (12 Mar 2014)

Mmmm I stuck mine to the saw plate with Pritstick.

Danny
I aimed for the middle of the tooth when I did mine.

Pete


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Mar 2014)

Danny - that's a lovely little saw - well worth the effort of refurbishing.

Couple of tips on filing. Firstly, file slowly. Trying to file steel as hard as sawplate fast will just cause the file to skate across the metal, and not cut efficiently. A 6" file should take almost a full second to make a full-length stroke. Second, good light makes a big difference - full daylight if you can arrange to do the job then, or LOTS of artificial light if you can't. Third - patience, patience. Really take your time, and see what the effect of each file stroke is, so you can correct the filing pressure (straight down or slightly left or right) before you take too much metal off. You'll speed up with practice. Fourthly, using an engineer's three-square (triangular) file to establish the notches and take them to about half depth will save wear on your sawfiles, but don't overdo it - you want the nice curved base to the gullets that a sawfile gives you, not the sharper notch from a three-square.

You're right though. It's not as daunting as you think. Just needs a bit of patience, good light, a methodical approach and a steady hand.


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## DannyEssex (13 Mar 2014)

Just picked up the saw vice, and have ordered a new file from WH. I will update you all when I make a start


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## bugbear (13 Mar 2014)

DannyEssex":sv1zfsxj said:


> Just picked up the saw vice, and have ordered a new file from WH. I will update you all when I make a start



You might want to find a way to use a "real" clamp (or two) to fix your vise in place. Rock solid stability is VERY helpful when filing, and a single thumbscrew type clamp won't provide it.

Mine screws to a board, which I hold in the bench vise. I discovered by chance that changing the board from 3/4" pine to 1" oak made the filing easier.

BugBear


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## DannyEssex (13 Mar 2014)

Cheers BB, I'v not had the chance to try it yet, just clamped a saw in for the pic. I will find a way to secure it more. 



Thanks to everyone else also for the help and advice :wink:


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## G S Haydon (14 Mar 2014)

A handsome saw Danny. I recently sharpened a cheap S&J DT saw, it's cuts much better than it did but still much more practice required. I look forward to seeing this progress.


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## Grahamshed (14 Mar 2014)

Thats a good looking job you are doing there. 
I have a similar saw that belonged to my father, probably 80 or more years old. It has a slight wobble in the handle which I must attend to but cuts well.


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## DannyEssex (14 Mar 2014)

Just hit a bit of a snag. Thought I would put the groves saw in the saw clamp and it wont fit  

there is not enough plate clear to cut the new teeth. The brass back is hitting the clamp nut. So im either going to have to take the brass back off, which I dont really want to do. Or not use the clamp and use a length of battern with a kerf cut into it :?


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## AndyT (14 Mar 2014)

I vote for option 2 or else a very simple clamp such as used in the Lie Nielsen saw sharpening videos and discussed on here recently. Two battens to hold the saw, attached to two boards, held in the vice.


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## bugbear (14 Mar 2014)

DannyEssex":2xui2nvq said:


> Just hit a bit of a snag. Thought I would put the groves saw in the saw clamp and it wont fit
> 
> there is not enough plate clear to cut the new teeth. The brass back is hitting the clamp nut. So im either going to have to take the brass back off, which I dont really want to do. Or not use the clamp and use a length of battern with a kerf cut into it :?



I use that paramo clamp, and I can't get to the end of my hand saw;







As you can see, the (ghostly) saw handle fouls on the vise framing.

BugBear


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## DannyEssex (14 Mar 2014)

Thats a great picture =D> =D> 

I did try to do the same but couldn't work out how you done it :lol: So I reverted to paint, the yellow rectangle is the brass back hitting the clamp  I was hoping to use the saw clamp, but have bodged together a Lie Nielsen-ish style one for now


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## DannyEssex (15 Mar 2014)

Well the file arrived from WH this morning so I printed off the template had jumped into it. TBH im not very impressed with the Bacho file, the front is chipped and crumbling away before it's even touched the saw, is that normal for a file or have I got a faulty specimen lol.

I started with one full stroke to make the mark, I then whipped away the template and worked my way down the saw with one full stroke per tooth. 

I have messed up a few teeth by the spacing so be kind its all in the learning process lol  

Had to leave it to go to work so will carry on in the morning


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## DannyEssex (15 Mar 2014)

The file looks a lot worse in the hand


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## lurcher (15 Mar 2014)

hi danny i also had the same problem with bacho files they are not very good 
look for a 5" double extra slim file for the job 
nice work with the saw mate


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## DannyEssex (15 Mar 2014)

Cheers mate, £13 odd quid for the bacho file! :? That was the 5 double extra slim.


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## DannyEssex (16 Mar 2014)

Well I set out to finish the saw this morning from where I left off yesterday. I made a right mess of it yesterday and decided to start from scratch this morning. I filled the badly shapped teeth and this time was a lot more methodical about it all. I took my time and this is the end result. It cuts nice but there are some things I would do differently next time round.


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Mar 2014)

A splendid result, sir!

The good thing about it is that not only do you now have a very nice saw in full working order, but you've overcome the challenge of sawfiling, so can now keep it in tip-top order for as long as you need it. Sawfiling, like sharpening, is one of those things you get better and better at with practice.

The only danger to watch out for now is that you'll spend all summer trawling the local car-boot sales, and finish up knee-deep in reconditioned vintage saws!


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## DannyEssex (16 Mar 2014)

Thanks CC, im really happy with it. It really is a lovely saw to use, just spent some time cutting up scraps and its great. There is a huge difference to my dirt cheap hard point, the heaviness takes some getting used to lol


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## bugbear (16 Mar 2014)

I'm late to this party, it appears. Anyway, I threw a big brass back saw into my (Woden) saw vise. Fits fine?

I'm assuming my Woden is VERY similar to your Paramo vise, so I don't see
why your saw wouldn't fit.






BugBear


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## bugbear (16 Mar 2014)

Cheshirechappie":k2garpdf said:


> The only danger to watch out for now is that you'll spend all summer trawling the local car-boot sales, and finish up knee-deep in reconditioned vintage saws!



Could that happen? *innocent face*

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Mar 2014)

DannyEssex":1vv89ti0 said:


> Thanks CC, im really happy with it. It really is a lovely saw to use, just spent some time cutting up scraps and its great. There is a huge difference to my dirt cheap hard point, the heaviness takes some getting used to lol



That weight is one of the things that makes the older saws such a joy to use, once you're used to it. You just completely relax your grip on the handle, and with index finger pointed forward along the blade pivot from the shoulder and elbow and allow the weight of the saw to do all the work. All you have to do is keep it on line.

One slight downside of the weight is that the saw can be a bit awkward to start - the sharp teeth dig in with all the weight on them, and the saw jams. Pushing harder just makes it jump unpredictably. The trick then is to 'take the weight off' - support the saw with a slightly tighter grip (the horns on the handle help a bit here), and glide the tips of the teeth over the job until a definite kerf is established, guiding it with the thumb of your off hand - rather as if you're bringing a plane in to land, and want a soft touch-down. Once there's a defined kerf, you can remove your off hand, relax your grip on the handle and let the saw do the work again.


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## G S Haydon (16 Mar 2014)

Excellent Danny!


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## pedder (17 Mar 2014)

Late, too. But might help the next time:



DannyEssex":olezbtil said:


> Thought I would put the groves saw in the saw clamp and it wont fit
> 
> There is not enough plate clear to cut the new teeth. The brass back is hitting the clamp nut. So im either going to have to take the brass back off, which I dont really want to do. ?



Sounds like that problem: 






1/4 hours with the big scrub file later






Cheers Pedder


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## bugbear (17 Mar 2014)

My Woden is thus:






BugBear


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## DannyEssex (17 Mar 2014)

Mine is like pedders. Will do that when I get a chance


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## bugbear (17 Mar 2014)

DannyEssex":maoa0219 said:


> Mine is like peddlers. Will do that when I get a chance



I'll check mine for file marks! Curious that the makers were making vises that can't hold back saws.

BugBear


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## DannyEssex (17 Mar 2014)

Thanks for the tip pedder


Sorry for the poor pictures but just rushed out to have a look, and decided to file off the protruding part, and it now takes the Groves saw, so happy days lol

Thanks again guys


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## DannyEssex (17 Mar 2014)

Just to add, the saw plate is just shy of 2 1/2" from the tip of the teeth to the bottom of the brass back


EDIT sorry Pedder, been calling you peddler


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## pedder (18 Mar 2014)

Hi Danny, 

no problem, that happens every now and then to me. :lol: 

You should clamp the saw shorter. The bottom of the gullet should be only as far away from the top of the vise as you plan to file. Reduces noise and more important it saves the file. 


Cheers 
Pedder


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## DannyEssex (18 Mar 2014)

I understand that pedder, the picture was just for display purposes  

Thanks again


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## bugbear (18 Mar 2014)

RESULT!

BugBear


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## DannyEssex (18 Mar 2014)

:lol: :lol:


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## morfa (18 Mar 2014)

Lovely saw. Looks wonderful. I need to get cracking on mine.


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## spanner48 (7 Nov 2022)

DannyEssex said:


> I messed about with a practice saw this morning, using a hacksaw blade as the template. It seem ok, not as daunting as I was expecting it to be. Bugbear kindly sent me some images to print off, so will try that out. I have just won a saw vice on ebay and will picking that up Thursday, then I will order some new files from WH.
> 
> I have a question about starting the first file cut. Am i best to start in the middle of the template teeth?
> 
> ...


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## spanner48 (7 Nov 2022)

Does it HAVE to be absolutely flat? 

No. but if you're cutting using a hacksaw blade as the master, it helps. Then you can get the whole blade done in one pass. If the toothline is hollowed - as it frequently is - you have to keep re-matching the heights between master ans slave every few inches.


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## IWW (8 Nov 2022)

spanner48 said:


> Does it HAVE to be absolutely flat?
> 
> No. but if you're cutting using a hacksaw blade as the master, it helps. Then you can get the whole blade done in one pass. If the toothline is hollowed - as it frequently is - you have to keep re-matching the heights between master ans slave every few inches.


Agreed - it's better to start with a straight tooth-line, not only for marking out from the template but it makes it easier to keep a constant rake angle when forming the teeth if you are new to saw sharpening. "Breasted" saws have a convex tooth line & it takes a bit of experience & concentration to maintain rake angle when forming or re-sharpening teeth on these, especially if the breasting is extreme, as on "floor" saws. However, there is no advantage whatever (imo) in breasting backsaws, straight works just fine...

It's very easy to make straight edges with a 10" smooth-cut file and a simple guide like this to hold the file square across the top (it also keeps fingers clear of teeth when "topping" saws before re-sharpening!). 



It takes just a few minutes to make. I tapped threads for the 6mm bolts directly into the wood (cross-grain threads can be tapped in wood quite successfully with ordinary metal taps), but a couple of wood screws can serve just as well. The advantage of the bolts is that they can be finger-tightened & I don't need to find a screwdriver to fix my file each time I use it. Use a chisel or rebate plane to make a small chamfer on the underside edge of the file to clear the teeth after they have been set & allow the guide to sit square against the saw plate.
Done!
Cheers,
Ian


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