# Bifold Doors Project



## Orcamesh (30 Apr 2012)

It looks like my display cabinet project is going to have to take a back seat for the moment, or be completed at an even slower pace (if that is possible). The house is still being refurbished/decorated which is what I have been up to recently, and now I need to design and build some bifold sliding doors to fill a large opening between two rooms. Mrs O would like them made in oak (solid). That's fine by me. 

But having never made any bifolds before I think I may need some pointers/help...

Overall the opening is 2170mm wide by 2030mm high.
I have decided to use a 25mm thick by ~150mm wide oak square outer frame into which a further door hanging frame is attached with an upper runner & doors. The door hanging frame will be about 35x50mm cross section. The outer frame is needed for aesthetics and to cover up what is a large slot in the floor, 150mm wide, which housed the old step for what was the original french doors which used to open into the garden before the extension room was built.

There will be 4 doors altogether, 2 on each side with a central opening, each pair of doors making the bifolds.
This means each door will be ~470mm wide, so each pair will be ~940mm wide when closed.
The style will be shaker, simple stiles & rails, with as yet undecided number of rails to split the glass into smaller pieces.

I have no idea at the mo how heavy each pair of doors will be, need to make some calcs...
But my main concern is what kind of glide or roller rail system I need and this will be in some way determined by the weight of each pair of doors. I would like only a rail at the top, none at the bottom.
I have tried searching for such rail systems for bifolds but there are so many and some seem to spec what thickness of door you should use with them, usually not equal to 35mm (standard internal door thickness).
I figured that I would just make them the same thickness as standard doors (35mm), but maybe this is not needed?

Has anyone made any bifolds before and able to advise?
If so, where did you get your rail system from?
What hinges did you use?

Hope someone can help?
cheers
Steve


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## Orcamesh (30 Apr 2012)

Having done some more searching I found this, which seems pretty good...

http://www.pchenderson.com/sliding_...stic&range=Room+Dividers&id=130&accessory_id=

The HF40/30 Husky folding Kit seems to fit my measurements and is £138+vat which seems ok.

But it has a bottom rail, so it seems I will have to install one of these too. Oh well, I'm sure it's straight forward.

I can't believe my doors will weigh more than 40kg!


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## mailee (30 Apr 2012)

Yes that's who I used for the set I made a while back. Mine were in softwood so not so heavy but they didn't need a bottom rail. They came as a kit complete with all of the hinges,rail, runners. ETC. 
these are the ones I made and fitted:


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## jasonB (30 Apr 2012)

I've used the Husky gear several times for internal doors and it should do fine or if the weight comes out higher use the next one up. The floor guide is optional but I have not used it on any that I have fitted.

having said that the sliding/folding types with top and bottom rails do run a lot smoother but cost quite a bit more? The vista fold works well

http://www.barrier-components.co.uk/har ... ld_timber/


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## Orcamesh (1 May 2012)

Thanks Mailee and Jason

It's always good to know that certain hardware has been used somewhere and it works. I'm sure there are some poor quality runner systems out there. I'll do some calcs on the weight of each panel once I have completed the design. Then I can choose the right runner system.

I have another question, when you make doors Mailee, I see that you leave the stiles longer than the top/bottom rail until you have glued the door frame together and then cut the ends off afterwards, what is the reason for doing this? I have never understood why this is done, is it because it avoids the corners of the doors getting damaged during the making process or is there some other reason? Or is it just to ensure that the stiles are cut exactly to the face of the top/bottom rails? I've seen this online and in books elsewhere too but never with an explanation.

cheers
Steve


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## RogerM (1 May 2012)

Steve - I'm just coming to the end of a bifold project, but these are 2 x 3 door fully double glazed external sets so I suspect rather heavier than you can expect on an internal set. I used Centor E3 sliding gear which came in at about £500 for each set of 3, so a bit pricey but superb quality and action. Each door is approx 580mm wide and fully glazed weighs in at 45kgs, but they still slide with the touch of a finger. The E3 gear can carry up to 100kgs per door, and the lighter weight E2 up to 40kgs. 

The Centor gear comes as a complete package which includes all hinges, stainless screws, rail, sliding gear, top and bottom bolts etc. I think you'll need some sort of rail at the bottom though to keep the doors upright as they are folded back unless you plan on keeping them very light-weight - which doesn't sound likely in oak! This bottom rail can of course be recessed into the floor so there would be nothing to trip over. 

"Horns" are left on the stiles top and bottom to protect the corners from damage whilst they are stacked up in the workshop. Also, allegedly, as the fitting tolerances for bifolds are pretty tight, in the hypothetical event that you end up with doors that are a bit short you could, I suppose, add an extra few mm on to the top or bottom of the door between the horns before finally committing to the finished size. :-# :-" 

I'll do a write up when I get that "round tuit".


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## RogerBoyle (1 May 2012)

Another one for the Husky Kit



Orcamesh":2kquzleu said:


> Thanks Mailee and Jason
> 
> It's always good to know that certain hardware has been used somewhere and it works. I'm sure there are some poor quality runner systems out there. I'll do some calcs on the weight of each panel once I have completed the design. Then I can choose the right runner system.
> 
> ...



All very hush hush I'm afraid :mrgreen: :mrgreen: (hammer) 

It stops the ends from splitting when you are cutting your mortice and gives you a bit of wiggle room to square things up as well.
Also handy for transporting them as well as it can offer some protection when they are dropped


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## jasonB (1 May 2012)

Also stops you splitting out the short piece of wood on the end of the mortice when you drive in the wedge.

J


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## Orcamesh (1 May 2012)

OK, thanks chaps, very helpful.

I think I will go for the Husky 40 system because that will be more than man enough for my doors & bit cheaper than the Centor E3.

Now I need to order the oak, bring it home & get it settled in...  

cheers
Steve


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## Orcamesh (1 May 2012)

Oh & it would be great to see some photos of your bifold doors too!! :wink:


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## Orcamesh (2 May 2012)

One other thing I forgot to ask is whether it is important to use quarter sawn oak for the stiles in the door panels or leaves? I guess it doesn't matter much about the rails.

Obviously I want to minimise the movement across the width of the opening as these doors will be solid oak construction.

cheers
Steve


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## RogerM (3 May 2012)

Orcamesh":23eojdph said:


> Oh & it would be great to see some photos of your bifold doors too!! :wink:



Steve - you've shamed me in to doing a write-up * here *.


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## Orcamesh (8 Sep 2012)

Well now the other project is finished I can now crack on with this. The oak (10 cu ft) was brought home in June (nearly broke the roof rack!) and has been in my workshop waiting to be planed. I've now done the initial planing (32 -> ~28mm) of the first 3 boards for the framework. The 4th board will be planed today/tomorrow. You can see the boards before planing and in stick below. Man, these boards are heavy and difficult to plane on this smallish Scheppach planer. It has tested me this week. I'm planning on following RogerM's bifold project, although mine are internal doors, not external. I may be sending Roger a pm soon...!!! The Henderson Husky 40 kit has been assessed and it seems that the edges of the doors nearest the framework will need about a 6-7mm gap which is a bit big, I wanted to shut off the two rooms, so looks like I'll have to build some sort of extra framework to hide this gap but still allow the bifolds to open, or I can shape the edges of the doors which hinge next to the framework so that the corners don't dig into the framework. Another way would be to cut a channel down the side of the framework so that the corner edge of the door can swing into it when the door is being opened. Decisions decisions... 

Also with the boards in stick as you can see, some of the sticks can still be moved with your fingers even though there seems to be weight from either the above oak board and/or the weights used. I would have thought that these sticks would be quite firmly held in place. But I guess the wood is pretty strong.

Thanks for looking, all comments welcome as always...
Steve


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## Chems (8 Sep 2012)

A good start! Some serious lengths to plane there. I wouldnt leave that tool box on your nice oak though, there is a tiny chance it might stain it.


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## RogerM (8 Sep 2012)

+1 re the steel box on the oak. I'm looking forward to watching the progress on this one as well. Planing long lengths of timber on a small p/t - I remember it well! (hammer) 

10 cu ft of oak on the roofrack? Blimey - that must be somewhere in the 150 - 200 kgs range.


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## Orcamesh (9 Sep 2012)

OK thanks for the heads up on the toolbox, it has now got a manmade board between it and the oak.

Yep, this oak is VERY heavy and difficult to push across the surface planer in particular. Setting up the thicknesser and roller guides each time you want to change the thickness on the machine is a right pain in the @r$e!

As for the roof rack it took me ages to load it on my tod and work out how to strap it down etc. Then had a very slow drive home over about 15 miles. When I got home I realised that the roof rack had been distorted and took some surface paint off the top of the car. Not good. So I now know the limits of a roof rack. Luckily the car isn't brand new. If I'm ordering that much in the future I will deffo be paying for delivery!  

Roger, when you made your framework what type of joint did you make in the top corners? I've seen your scribed bottom corners but there wasn't much said about the top corner joints.


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## RogerM (9 Sep 2012)

Orcamesh":2bhnzwu5 said:


> Yep, this oak is VERY heavy and difficult to push across the surface planer in particular. Setting up the thicknesser and roller guides each time you want to change the thickness on the machine is a right pain in the @r$e!



Yep. I remember it well. I found that for surface planing it helped to re-wax the tables and the fence frequently and to have the rollers set very marginally higher than the table (no more than 1mm) so that the board would just touch the table when it sagged under its own weight, or with a little help from me pushing down on it as I pushed it across the table.



Orcamesh":2bhnzwu5 said:


> Roger, when you made your framework what type of joint did you make in the top corners? I've seen your scribed bottom corners but there wasn't much said about the top corner joints.



I kept it very simple, and just followed the drawing provided by Centor, with just one difference. Basically, I cut the head pieces that sit either side of the top track short by the thickness of the jamb at each end. Then the head piece (labelled A in the diagram below) sits on top of the jamb and the width of the opening is then defined by the lengths of the pieces that sit either side of the track. These are cut at the same time as the equivalent pieces that sit on the cill so that the opening will be precisely square. Then I cut a simple m&t the same thickness as the track into the head (mortise in the head, and tenon in the jamb) to register the position of the jamb flush with the front and back of the frame. Hopefully this diagram will help - remember it doesn't show my m&t modification. For assembly I just put hefty screws horizontally through the jamb into the channel supports, and down through the head into the jamb either side of the m&t, and finally another horizontally through the tenon into the head. 






Once assembled, I squared it up by measuring across the diagonals until they were as near equal as i could get them, and then screwed a diagonal piece about 2m long across one corner to hold it square until fitting was complete.


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## Orcamesh (10 Sep 2012)

Thanks Roger, I figured it might be something like that. Good idea to use M&Ts for registration. I thought about using biscuits but unsure whether they would be strong enough with this heavy oak. 

The doors will need a 6mm gap between each of the doors nearest to the wall/framework on either side. My doors will be pairs and will slide towards the left and right.




This is the problem gap I have mentioned before and needs to be addressed somehow, i.e. I don't want a gap!

The top rail is probably similar to yours and has a double wheeled roller. The optional bottom rail is a guide rail only, i.e. there is a bearing guide pin which runs in it.




Top rail




Bottom rail




Wheel roller




Various other bits here, the top right piece is the bearing guide pin. The other two pieces are used together for pivoting the doors nearest the wall.




Like so...




To fix the gap issue I could roundover, chamfer or bevel the doors nearest the wall/framework so that as they rotate, the chamfered corner does not hit the framework. Like so...




This is just a test piece I rigged up and placed against the top rail to see how it would work on the gap removal.


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## Orcamesh (10 Sep 2012)

Continued...

My cill will be something like this...





Double bevelled because the trench in the floor is about 20mm deep and the bottom rail is 20mm deep so it needs some wood under it for support IMHO. Max thickness of the cill is 35mm and width 150mm. The carpet in the dining room will meet one side, top surface of carpet will meet the bottom of the slope. The other room currently has a laminate floor but will be changed in near future and so I am not bothered if there is a slight step there or not. I could of course not have the bottom guide rail at all and make the cill only 20mm thick and rectangular cross section, easier to make! But I feel that I am going to need guide pins on these bad boys!

Doors will not be same as these but this gives you an idea of how it works and looks...




The doors have to be slid onto the top rail before the top rail can be screwed home. So the top rail cannot be the total length of the inside width of the framework and a small gap must be provided at each end so that the rail can be swivelled out as shown below (No.7)...




I intend not to glaze the doors until they are hanging. So will use suction cups to lift glass into position before nailing in the beading.

Does anyone know if there is a minimum thickness of tempered glass I should be using for internal doors? I thought maybe 4mm was enough? I will be using a single pane of glass in each door which will be about 350 x 1800 mm.


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## RogerM (12 Sep 2012)

Very interesting! Thanks for posting.

Not sure that this is a job for biscuits. My m&t between the jamb and head was really nothing more than a simple box joint with one tooth on the jamb and a corresponding slot that coincided with the head rail thickness. Once thats engaged there really is nowhere it can go, and having one less variable when you come to install the frame can only assist you because I can assure you that you'll be a busy boy focussing on other areas! :lol: 

Is the 6mm gap between the doors and the jamb such an issue? When the doors are closed presumably you'll have a "stop jamb" as you would on an external door to conceal the gap. That will stop any light shining through which is what makes a gap obvious, and when the door is closed the gap will be covered by the "stop jamb" anyway.

I wouldn't regard the bottom rail as optional. Oak doors will be heavy. You've bought nearly 180kgs of oak for this project. OK - some will end up in the frame, and some as offcuts and some as dust/shavings - but these boys will still be heavy. I would be surprised if, when glazed, they are less that 30kgs each. You say you already have a 20mm slot in the floor (solid?). This sounds a bit thin to be the total thickness of screed over the slab. If you wanted to be really anal about it you could deepen the slot down to the floor slab - probably a total of 50mm - and that would totally contain the floor rail flush with the final floor level. No need to use anything as messy as a disc cutter. Just stitch drill along the line with your shop vac hose placed next to the drill. The screed in between the two cut lines should then lift easily off the slab. But your solution looks fine to me.

Trying to fit the frame with 4 doors already hanging from the rail sounds like a problem unless you are a 20 stone muscle bound hulk. I would be tempted to test fit the frame first, getting it as true as possible, and then drop the rail - fit the doors - and then refit the rail into an already accurately fitted frame. The plumbline method for getting the frame vertical works well and you won't have the problems of wind blowing it around as we had with fitting external doors. Just make a little line carrier to sit in the rail to hold it central.

Definitely leave glazing until after the doors are fitted. Apart from the weight issue, you'll also find the doors easier to fit if you can reach through them and hold them around the inside of the frame. 4mm toughened or laminate should be fine, but any glass provider worthy of the name will be able to advise you. A couple of lifting suckers can be bought cheaply from Screwfix and will be worth their weight in gold. *This* is quite an interesting site that explains the requirements.


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## Orcamesh (14 Sep 2012)

RogerM":1cwiv72q said:


> Very interesting! Thanks for posting.
> 
> Not sure that this is a job for biscuits. My m&t between the jamb and head was really nothing more than a simple box joint with one tooth on the jamb and a corresponding slot that coincided with the head rail thickness. Once thats engaged there really is nowhere it can go, and having one less variable when you come to install the frame can only assist you because I can assure you that you'll be a busy boy focussing on other areas! :lol:
> 
> ...



Thanks Roger.
The corner joints for the jambs are now crystal clear. But there is no "stop jamb" with these doors. I don't know if Mailee can comment because he has used these Henderson Husky kits before. But if you look at the supplied drawings you need a 90mm gap between the centre line of the upper track and any wall lying directly behind it (in parallel with the track), I will have to upload a photo later when I've scanned it. As the doors swing around they project beyond the track, hence the 6mm gap at the sides. I'm not sure why they specify a 90mm gap though.
The bottom rail is mentioned as optional by Henderson, not me! But I will be fitting it!
Yes the doors will be extremely heavy, I wouldn't be surprised if they are close the maximum load per door. 

The slot in the floor is where the old external french doors used to be before the extension room was built on. See the below photo, my son is holding up the recently laid carpet to show the trench. It is about 20mm deep from the top of the carpet. Hence this is why I will end up with a bit of a step as you walk through. 





The underlying floor is solid, some sort of screed, I'm not entirely sure (I'm no builder!).
As you say I could stitch drill and dig it out further, I might do this because I'm not entirely happy with a stepped walk through. 
I think the procedure for fitting the rail is as you say, align the doors (minus the glass) standing up and slide the rail on. Doors are standing inside the frame. Jacking up the doors with a packer so that the rail is touching the underside of the top framework, ready to be screwed into position. Then the doors can be slid along and glass fitted with suckers (already on my shopping list!). 
Thanks for your other tips, I'm sure they will be invaluable!
cheers
Steve


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## RogerM (14 Sep 2012)

Orcamesh":kh5010ys said:


> .... there is no "stop jamb" with these doors.



Yes, I see what you mean. The lack of a stop jamb is probably because as thes doors pivot from the centre rather than from a line outside the door, the edge of the door moves out as it folds back. You could still fit a stop jamb though provided that you radius the edge of the door that will be up against it so that it doesn't extend out beyond the plane of the door frame. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll post a diagram tomorrow. 

I'm sure Mailee will be back soon. Certainly some input from someone who has used this track set would be helpful.

From that photo it looks like the slot in the floor sits over what was previously the outside leaf of a cavity wall. If you want to recess the bottom of the frame a bit more you have nothing to lose by doing a bit of test drilling and chiseling at one end. Just make sure that if you go through the dpc that you run a dp membrane under the frame.


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## Orcamesh (16 Sep 2012)

RogerM":2631isd3 said:


> Orcamesh":2631isd3 said:
> 
> 
> > .... there is no "stop jamb" with these doors.
> ...



You're correct about the doors being pivoted centrally. So here is the same test piece I showed earlier...



Hopefully you can see that this test piece is just a mock up of a bit of a door and that I have drawn a radius and a bevel on the end of it. The pivot you can see screwed into the top of the door mockup. So if I eliminate the 6mm gap and have a stop jamb then I will need to have either a radius or two bevels pretty much as shown here. Both corners need to be removed so that one doesn't hit the framework and the other corner doesn't hit the stop jamb.

The slot in the floor was where there was a wooden step as part of the old French doors (external). This used to be the door out in to the garden. I can do some test drilling as you suggest and we'll see what to do next.

We have now planed up some more boards, all the framework pieces and one other thick (2") board which will be used for the bottom rails of each of the doors. My father-in-law popped round to play! :lol:




We have spent some hours this weekend just trying to plane up these two big boards (~200 x 50 x 2800mm).
Now I have a slightly larger pile of oak in stick! The top oak board is not planed yet but just being used as extra weight on top.





What is the recommended "acclimatisation time" for timber in stick? I have only planed down part of the way to final thickness, so there should be a few millimetres to still take off each board later on. I estimate about 6-8 weeks in stick. But not sure what is acceptable?

cheers
Steve


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## RogerM (23 Oct 2012)

So, what progress in 5 weeks? (hammer)


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## Orcamesh (24 Oct 2012)

RogerM":22vh1f9m said:


> So, what progress in 5 weeks? (hammer)



Sorry Roger virtually nothing. I've been decorating a large bedroom instead! Also, I have decided to sell my P/T as I need more thicknessing capacity for this project and in general. So my old one will be up for sale some time soon, probably in about two weeks when the new one arrives-ish. Also since I sold my motorbike and gave it up for good, the front 2.5m of the garage have now been chipboarded (with 25mm of polystyrene underneath) like the rest of my garage. Then because the floor is slippery and due to the new bit of boarding I decided to paint the floor with an anti-slip paint. Time will tell if it is any good, I'm not entirely convinced even at this point and I haven't made any shavings in weeks now. Painting 7.5x2.8m of floor had to be done in 3 stages because of moving all the equipment/other stuff around. So it has taken a few weeks to do this. Anyway it has now given me more room in the garage workshop which will be great.

I suspect that over the winter now not much progress will be made, but let's see...

cheers
Steve


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## mailee (27 Oct 2012)

Sorry guys I had missed this post. Yes I had to radius the edge of the doors to fit a face frame due to the pivot position. I used the largest half round cutter I had in the router and it did the trick. HTH. :wink:


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## Orcamesh (28 Oct 2012)

mailee":2a2jn3f8 said:


> Sorry guys I had missed this post. Yes I had to radius the edge of the doors to fit a face frame due to the pivot position. I used the largest half round cutter I had in the router and it did the trick. HTH. :wink:



OK thanks Mailee, good to know. I will do the same when the time comes...

cheers
Steve


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## Orcamesh (24 Apr 2013)

Update, well a small one...

I'm back on the job now that winter seems to have gone. I've had 4 pieces of oak left in stick inside over the winter, part planed. So now I've planed them to final thickness. These 4 pieces are for the framework. The doors will be made at a later date. The threshold is 35mm thick as it will sit in a trough where the old step used to be for the old doors. The other 3 pieces are 22mm thick. All around 2m long.

You can see some shots below. The framework is now all at final thickness, width and length. Groove routed in the threshold to take the aluminium door guide. One of the photos just shows some offcuts of the threshold and a frame jamb. The oak is really nice and so far reasonable to work with, this is the first time I've worked on oak. As you can see I've bought some Osmo Door Oil to finish it all in. 

Next step is to attach the frame together, probably use loose tenons and screws. Gotta make sure it's square! Drill clearance holes along framework to secure to wall/floor/ceiling. Then oil and finally fit it in place. Then I can move onto the doors, still in oak but they will also be glazed. This all sounds so easy but seldom is!

All comments welcome as usual, thanks for looking...
Steve


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## Orcamesh (10 Nov 2014)

Like the mythical firebird, the Phoenix, this post has risen from the ashes! Sorry for the delay, although I guess those who were originally interested will have totally forgotten about this by now! :wink: 

Anyway, I can now say that the bifold or folding-sliding doors are now up and running. Yay! This project has been pushed back a lot mainly because in the past year we have been renovating the house and in particular the kitchen, which I installed amongst other tasks in there, so that took longer than I thought. Life and social events always take up whatever spare time there is too so when you tot these all up there's not much time left.

I've still got a bit of hiding trim & architrave to plane/rout/fit & a couple of pulls were turned at the weekend and are drying after being oiled, but otherwise the doors & frame are now done. There are a couple of finger pulls on one side of the doors already. I attach a couple of photos and there's a short video of them in operation on my Tumblr blog too...

http://orcamesh.tumblr.com/post/101763302309

I did take a lot of photos during the making but probably not of much interest since they're just doors, but if you are then feel free to follow me on Instagram as there's quite a few pics in there (and of other stuff) already. Instagram is quite a buzzing social network for woodworkers now and is quick and easy to share content (for those that don't know already). All I can say is that I have learned a hell of a lot and thanks to Mailee and RogerM for your help/advice, this was very useful. I will not be in a rush to make any more! Oh and as if I didn't need any more tools, the toolkit has also expanded now.  

cheers
Steve


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## RogerM (11 Nov 2014)

Looks like a nice job Steve. So much better than a sliding door and a fixed panel, and it looks like you've been able to bury the bottom track into the floor very neatly. Thanks for posting.


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## Orcamesh (11 Nov 2014)

RogerM":2br0h2tx said:


> Looks like a nice job Steve. So much better than a sliding door and a fixed panel, and it looks like you've been able to bury the bottom track into the floor very neatly. Thanks for posting.



Thanks Roger. I totally agree about the sliding door/fixed panel. Yeah, the track is useful with this rail system, I was in 2 minds about whether to use it or not. I did experience some cupping of the step part of the frame in which the track sits. I probably would have been better using 2 separate pieces of oak at the base of the frame, but here I routed a slot for the track and this caused the oak to cup. So much so I ended up having to hand sand the slot to get the track to fit in again! It was very tiring and very annoying. But most people don't see this cupping (apart from the ones with beady eyes!!). I just hope that the rest of the oak does not move as I will have to take the doors down and plane them. Getting the doors on and off is no mean feat, in fact it is a right pain in the @r$€! Anyway, overall I'm very happy with how they've turned out.
cheers
Steve

PS. I've just looked at your kitchen extension and I'm really impressed with your work there. Wow! I thought my kitchen reno was heavy going, but this is something else. I didn't make any part of our kitchen cabinets (Howdens) but did fit/modify them, plus electrics, induction hob fitting, worktop fitting, replaced ceilings, walls and floor. There was a small utility room to do too. I wouldn't have had the storage space for all the kitchen parts and real timber for face frames etc so I didn't fight that one! Well done you.


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