# My new toy



## martinka (13 Oct 2013)

Impulse bid in the last 10 seconds and won it, giving the wife a 170 mile round trip to take me to pick it up this afternoon. Oops.


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## powertools (13 Oct 2013)

Well that looks impressive but what is it exactly?


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## martinka (13 Oct 2013)

PT, it's a Diamond. One of these. http://www.scrollsaws.com/SawReviews/diamond_saw.htm
I think the engineer who made them is sadly no longer with us.
It's a lovely machine, but it's BIG, with a 25" throat. The motor is very noisy compared to the Hegner, but that's probably it's age. It could do with two new belts so hopefully I can find some or figure out how to make some.

Martin.


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## Bryan Bennett (14 Oct 2013)

Martin that is awesome,If I had something that big I would not be able to turn round in my workplace.I am jealous of the size of your workshop,I have the Hegner in the middle of the workplace and can reach the power sockets on the left and right walls,whilst sat on the seat.

Bryan


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## scrimper (14 Oct 2013)

I have one of these in regular use in my workshop (been using it today as it happens) I bought mine around 1988 directly from the maker Mr JD Woodward who is sadly no longer with us. I spoke to him on several occasions and found him to be very knowledgeable and most helpful. about 4 years after I bought it the variable control started playing up and he sent me mew electronics to fit without any charge.

It is a very good saw, one of it's attributes is that using special blade-holders it can take all kinds of blade inc hacksaw blades and broken bandsaw blades, 2 types of blade holders are supplied with the saw, normal are the universal open type that will take all manner of blade up to 12" long; as I mention above plus a special fretsaw blade holder with a closed hole entry type for standard fretsaw blades, these can be fitted with ones eyes closed! (i.e. the bottom of the blade can be fitted underthe table without looking.)

The saw is noisier than a Hegner due to the fact that it is fitted with a universal carbon brush type motor which can run very fast, the saw must be bolted down to a very heavy bench or stand. *a balance weight is fitted and should be removed when the saw is bolted down* as this will reduce the noise and vibration, (Doug Woodward told me that he only fitted the weight to help for when the saw was demonstrated in a tool dealers but that it is better without when bolted down) 

I imagine that you have made a very good buy, if this saw was sold today it would be on a par with the Hegner at a similar price, I have my origional reciept in the workshop and if I remember correctly it cost me around £300 back in 1988.

If you need any info I would be glad to advise.


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## ChrisR (14 Oct 2013)

Martin.

That looks like a serious piece of heavy duty kit, it looks to be on the similar lines to the American Hawk scroll saw :?: .

Link.
http://youtu.be/WhFQKScmvM0 

Take care.

Chris R.


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## mjcann (14 Oct 2013)

I have one of these, its been in the shed unused for years, recently brought into service. I am now getting the hang of it, but its noisy, Ive bolted it down but not a lot of improvement. A question for scrimper, the counter balance, is that the bar that is paralel to the bottom arm with a lump of steel welded on the end.
Martin


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## scrimper (14 Oct 2013)

mjcann":3k8t4awd said:


> A question for scrimper, the counter balance, is that the bar that is paralel to the bottom arm with a lump of steel welded on the end.
> Martin


I don't know where the weight is ATM but from memory mine was a bar of heavy metal about 1" x 1/2" x approx 4" and fixed to the shaft behind the driving pulley on the RH side, if the saw is bolted down you don't need the weight fitted.


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## scrimper (14 Oct 2013)

martinka":2qxdrwfn said:


> It could do with two new belts so hopefully I can find some or figure out how to make some.



Martin, belts should not be a problem unless yours is different to mine they are a stretchy type round rough surface belt, 2 are fitted. they are the same belt that was widely used on Hotpoint twin-tubs to drive the main spinner (not the pump belt which is smaller and thinner) they normally had a white paint spot on them hence we called them a white spot belt! also the old Hotpoint top loaders used a similar belt but with a red spot which was practically the same and would do just as well.

The belts do have a rough surface even when new to help with grip on round section pulleys.
If you have a local **electrical appliance repair shop near you they may well have them on their shelf or you can buy them on ebay.

John

** I mean a proper repair dealer not a retailers like Currys etc who will charge you double or won't be bothered to get one for you.


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## powertools (14 Oct 2013)

I like that let us how you get on with it.


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## loftyhermes (14 Oct 2013)

Nice buy Martin, you're really getting into this scrolling lark aren't you.
happy scrolling
Steve


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## martinka (14 Oct 2013)

Bryan, that's my car garage. When the car and motorbike are in there, there's no room at all, everything has to be shoved up to the bench. Having said that, I worked out of it as a motor mechanic for 25 years and learned to squeeze into, and work in, some very small spaces. 

Chris, the Hawk was sold here as the Record Power and someone on here bought one fairly recently. I came close to buying it myself but decided against it because of lack of space. So why did I buy this one? :roll: 

Scrimper, you're a star! You have given me more info in a couple of posts than I have been able to find in 2 days searching. I'll see about removing the counterweight, but the saw is too long to fit on my bench so I have it clamped to a workmate clone at the moment.
Back again - I disconnected the counterweight and the workmate and saw went walkabout when I switched it on. Then I realised the Pitman arm for the counterweight was still on. I'll need to make a puller to remove the main pulley so I can get to the Pitman arm to remove it. I also found the bearing in that particular Pitman arm is very notchy, which wouldn't have been helping. I'll get back to it tomorrow.

Martin.


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## scrimper (14 Oct 2013)

Is yours the version with variable speed or is it a 2 speed only model? Reason is that at full power universal (carbon brush type) motors will run very fast indeed especially when they don't have a load on them whereas the induction type motor as fitted to the Hegner is much smoother and quieter.

If you do have the 2 speed version having a universal motor makes it simple to set up your own variable speed control whereas you cannot do that with the Hegners induction motor (it has to be a factory fitted option).

I have the variable version and it is much more pleasant to use with the speed turned down, on full power the Diamond runs very much faster than the Hegner at max and hence will vibrate one hell of a lot more!

I presume you do have the instructions for the saw? 

FWIW the motor fitted to the Diamond was known as a Carter-Romford motor and was the same motor as fitted to the spin-dryer section of the Servis twin-tub. A few years ago I dismantled an old Servis twin-tub for scrapping but kept the spinner motor as a spare for my Diamond in case it ever packs up, with the demise of Twin-tubs I imagine they are difficult to obtain now.

(Yes you have guessed it! We do still have a Hoover Twin-Tub as a spare in case the auto packs up, it came in very useful in the 2007 Glos great flood when everyone's mains water was cut off for over 2 weeks!)


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## martinka (14 Oct 2013)

Mine is a variable speed, and I soon found out that slower is better. I don't have any instructions for the saw, just a spec sheet. If you have some and could scan me a copy it would be very much appreciated.
I'd guessed there were vac's and washing machines involved with this saw, especially the belts. I did have a quick look on ebay and spotted some that looked the same but there was no length given.
A friend who owned a washer and vac shop recently retired and closed his shop down as his son didn't want to take it on. I bet the skip outside his shop was full of belts. 

Martin


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## scrimper (14 Oct 2013)

The instructions were very basic and were sort of hand draw diagrams and typewritten words, I have them in my workshop, as soon as I get time I will scan some for you.

I am pretty sure that the belt that fits the Diamond is the same one as was fitted to the Hotpoint 1450/1460 washing machine, the main *spin drive belt*, they are on ebay' as I have seen them they can be red, green or white spot, they are all about the same.

(There were 3 belts fitted to the Hotpoint twin-tubs, a Larger vee belt for the wash side, a stretch belt approx 5/16" in section for the main spin drive and a smaller 1/8" section stretch belt for the pump, it's the main spin drive one you want.) If you are going to buy a belt let me know first and I will take the side off my diamond and make sure that the Hotpoint belt fits first (I have a spare in my stock) so as not to waste your money. But I am 99% sure it will fit fine. 

Probably best to check with a local spares shop before buying, some of the belts online are priced ridiculously high!


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## martinka (15 Oct 2013)

I found a green spot belt on ebay for £12.99 which seems a lot. The three local washer shops around here all closed down but I'll keep an eye out on the markets. I remember one stall that sold bags for older vac's, maybe they sell belts for vac's and washers too.
Aha! I found one for £6.99 with free delivery, so if you could check I'd appreciate it.

Martin.


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## scrimper (15 Oct 2013)

OK I have the side off and checked the belts, as I suggested mine is fitted with 2 white spot belts, these are the same as the white spot drive belt as fitted originally to Hotpoint twin-tub 1450/60 spinners, in my picture a spare Hotpoint belt is laying in front of the pulleys, it looks bigger in the pictures but it is a perfect fit. I don't actually have a green or red spot belt at hand but given that it replaces the white spot version and fits the Hotpoint 1450/60 I am 99.9% sure it will fit the same as a white spot one! 

I am assuming that your pulleys are the same as mine with stretchy type belts fitted?

Am I right in that this is the belt you are looking at?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOTPOINT-STRE ... 232dcbd3f0


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## martinka (15 Oct 2013)

Yes, mine is almost identical, but the left pulley has holes The belt I found on ebay is a red spot. I sent an email asking if there is any difference.
If I run my motor at full speed, the right hand belt is hitting the bench, yet the belt looks and feels OK. I'll see if I can take a photo of it running.
I notice there is an oil hole in the top arm for the pivot - it was blocked when I got it - but in the bottom arm is an Allen screw in the same place. Any idea why?
How do you align the top and bottom clamps? Is there any easy way or is it trial and error?
Martin.


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## martinka (15 Oct 2013)

A couple of photos of the belt. The first shows the ghostly outline of the right side belt. The second, taken with flash, shows that it is the "white dot" or the joint, that is causing the problem. Swap the belts over and it's still the same. I'm not really surprised as the motor pulley is running at around 13,200RPM at full speed, with the saw running at around 1500SPM. When I have the saw on my steel bench, you can see the belt hitting the bench, a good inch from the pulley. As there is no way to tension the belts, I think a slightly shorter belt might cure the problem, but finding one the right length is yet another problem.


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## scrimper (16 Oct 2013)

TBH I don't understand this, the belt to the right is quite obviously miles too loose! What does that nut and washer do above the motor pulley? If you look at my picture there is not one on my machine. No adjustment is normally required for the belt as a stretch belt is used. I am sure that both belts were the same size But I can always check again to be 100% sure.

You may have difficulty finding a stretch belt of this type in a slightly smaller size the next size down that I know about is a pump belt that fits a Hoover Twin-tub it's section is the same as the white spot but it's diameter is quite a lot smaller and IMHO it will be far too tight on this machine, I don't know of a belt of this kind in-between the two sizes.

When both belts are off do they look to be the same only from your picture the RH one looks a lot more stretched?

Take both belts off and hold each side of the belt together and measure the length, do this for both belts if different, post the result here and I will measure mine to compare.


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## ChrisR (16 Oct 2013)

Martin.

A the last place I worked as site electrical engineer, there was a lot of production machinery, the machinery maintenance engineers had round plastic belting in large coils/lengths, which they would cut to required length, then would heat the ends with a large soldering iron and butt joint them together, these belts would then be put into service, on a machinery which was running 24 hours a day, so it was very serviceable/strong.

If you look on the Chronos web site, under (plastic transmission belt), I think this must be the same or similar product.

Hope this is of help.

Chris R.


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## martinka (16 Oct 2013)

scrimper, the two belts are identical sizes. If I swap them over I get the same effect. The bolt above the motor secures the end of the counterweight. (I'd like to find out about the later counterweight) I'll check the motor mounting holes to see if I can get any slight movement but I suspect the problem is simply old belts that haven't been used for a long time. Belts will take a slight set if not used for a long time and the fast speed of the motor pulley will show this up, The final drive pulley is turning something like 9 times slower. 

I could remove the accessory pulley and have a saw running at something like 6000SPM :shock:  

Chris, thanks for the tip. I knew, but had forgotten about, the plastic belt as it is used on a small drill I have been thinking about building for far too long. There's another type that is hollow and uses a tiny aluminium piece to connect the belt ends. I don't know how effective either would be on a motor this fast.


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## scrimper (16 Oct 2013)

martinka":1faxu79v said:


> The bolt above the motor secures the end of the counterweight. (I'd like to find out about the later counterweight)



Be interested to see what that counterweight looked like mine was just a lump of metal with a hole where the shaft runs through and held with a grub screw, I presume yours is a later model than mine?


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## martinka (16 Oct 2013)

I'm confused now because I thought mine was an earlier model. I saw an old post somewhere which mentioned an arm for the balancer, which mine has, and he said Mr Woodward told him it could be updated for £50. I just found a price list, not sure when from, and it mentions a vertical balancer and that a £1 coin can be stood on the table at any speed. It certainly can't on mine. 

I've just been to take a photo of the balancer and noticed the the Pitman arm from the balance arm to the drive shaft was slightly loose. I experimented moving the arm round on the shaft and the vibration is much lower now, though I am sure a £1 coin still wouldn't balance on the table. 

The balance/counterweight is the long black arm which fastens at the back of the saw and to the arm visible at the front behind the pulley. This arm like a cam and the black arm moves up and down. I assume this is the vertical balancer referred to in the price list.

Out of interest, mine was £585 when this price list was up to date.


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## ChrisR (16 Oct 2013)

Martin.

I think these heat join belts were reasonably tough. I know a lot were just running indexing drives/counters, but others were used as drives for small/short conveyers, and all were running 24 hours a day.

To join the belts, the engineers had modified a large electric soldering iron. The copper end bit had been hammered out until it was only about 3mm thick, they would hold the two cut ends either side of the bit, when it started to melt, the ends were just slid together and held for maybe thirty to forty seconds to cool.

The modified soldering iron bit, always reminded me of a duck billed platypus, but then I have a very strange mind. #-o 

Take care.

Chris R.


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## martinka (16 Oct 2013)

The urethane belt might be better, because what is happening is that the elasticated belt is being stretched by centrifugal force and throwing it off the pulley, but I don't know why. It obviously wasn't designed that way. I'm tempted to slot the holes for the motor just to see if a bit of adjustment will cure it. On the whole, it doesn't really matter as it happens at full speed, whereas at around 900SPM, where the saw seems most comfortable, it isn't a problem.

Martin.


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## mjcann (16 Oct 2013)

In my experience, slack on the off side of driving pulley has been caused by the load being higher than design, belt stretches on pull side therefore tension is destroyed, so it may be advisable to check free movement of parts.
Martin


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## martinka (16 Oct 2013)

The motor and accessory pulley spin freely, and the belt(s) still exhibit the same behaviour without the final drive belt coupled up. I did consider the notchy bearing on the counterweight, until I disconnected it and it made no difference. Although they feel OK, I think I'll have the accessory bearing apart anyway to check it and might also strip and make sure the motor is clean and lubricated. Thanks for chipping in: the more heads, the more chance of solving the problem.


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## scrimper (16 Oct 2013)

That balanced is way advanced to mine, yours must be a much newer model. 
I have to say that without a balance weight mine runs smooth enough, not as smooth as the Hegner but I put that down to the Hegners slower running induction motor.


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## scrimper (16 Oct 2013)

This is the size of a new white spot belt, you can compare it to your belts?

When they are new they are very tight, are you sure that yours isn't too stretchy?


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## martinka (16 Oct 2013)

I'll check in the morning, but it takes very little stretch to make a difference and I suppose it's possible the belts haven't stretched but have lost their elastic strength, if that makes sense. I have noticed that the first belt seems slacker than the 2nd, but swap them around and it's just the same. Without any adjustment, there's nothing I can do about that.
Cheers,
Martin.


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## scrimper (16 Oct 2013)

martinka":3i1iy61w said:


> I suppose it's possible the belts haven't stretched but have lost their elastic strength, if that makes sense.



TBH That is what I meant but could not find the right way to describe it that you have done.


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## martinka (17 Oct 2013)

scrimper":22a9rjba said:


> This is the size of a new white spot belt, you can compare it to your belts?
> 
> When they are new they are very tight, are you sure that yours isn't too stretchy?



I just measured mine the same way and though they are the same length as each other, mine measure 11.25" 
I found an old washer shop fairly local to me so I'll give them a bell this morning. Looks run down and still has half day closing on Wednesday, so there's a good chance of old stock. 

Martin.


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## ChrisR (17 Oct 2013)

Martin.

May be worth looking on this site, for belts.

http://www.espares.co.uk 

I have just used them for a pair of motor carbon brushes.
Very good service.

Take care.

Chris R.


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## scrimper (17 Oct 2013)

They do sell a Hotpoint belt that will fit the Diamond however they charge £12.99 + £2.99 postage for it which IMHO is well over the top. a quality belt can be found on ebay for £6.99 inc free postage. 

TBH Having been in the trade for most of my life I am quite amazed at some of the prices these online sellers charge!


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## martinka (17 Oct 2013)

I'll probably go for the one on ebay (I just did) as I am convinced it's the belt that's at fault. I even tried a roller to tension the belt this morning but it was no better. I'd probably never use it at the speed where it's troublesome, but I hate it when things aren't just right.

Martin.


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## scrimper (17 Oct 2013)

martinka":5vtccrtp said:


> I'd probably never use it at the speed where it's troublesome, but I hate it when things aren't just right.


Same as me, I just would not be happy until I got it working properly, even if it did not matter that much.


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## boysie39 (18 Oct 2013)

scrimper":kdq0sc4s said:


> martinka":kdq0sc4s said:
> 
> 
> > I'd probably never use it at the speed where it's troublesome, but I hate it when things aren't just right.
> ...



Now where have I heard that before I wonder . :shock: :roll: :roll: 

One of the reasons I ended up with two of everything . :lol: :lol: 

OH the sheer joy of it .To do it all over again .


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## mjcann (20 Oct 2013)

After much deliberation, I thought I would have a go at making the diamond nice and quiet, it was mounted on a thick lump of blockboard, but between the board and metal feet were rubber blocks, I have removed these, I made a puller next to get pulley off, to get access to counter balance, I removed that complete with quadrant, Put it all back together and bolted it down to my solid old bench, The difference is unbelievable,
Top speed and £1 coin really will stand on edge and I dont need ear defenders.
Martin


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## martinka (20 Oct 2013)

Martin, you must have a quieter motor than mine. This one shows its twin tub spin drier lineage with its sound. :mrgreen: Which balancer does yours have? Mine has the one with a long arm pivoted at the back of the saw above the motor. And which model saw is yours? Mine is the 25" and just too long to bolt to the bench. I thought about making a steel stand and making a top from pavement flags, though someone from the council might notice the holes. 

T'other Martin.


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## mjcann (20 Oct 2013)

T'other Martin
The counter balance arm is around 12inch pivoted at back as yours, at the front end of it there is a chunk of steel welded, as for motor it is spinner type, but that noise doesnt worry me, as I am totaly deaf to frequencies such as that, (there must be someone to make a claim against, for noise in the workplace) it was the vibration and associated noise I couldnt stand, as for which model it is I have no idea, purchased on ebay for a tenner about ten years ago, but unlike some it doesnt have a power take off.
Martin


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## martinka (20 Oct 2013)

mjcann":21zvmszv said:


> but that noise doesnt worry me, as I am totaly deaf to frequencies such as that, (there must be someone to make a claim against, for noise in the workplace)



Funny you should mention that, I got paid out just last week for industrial deafness. I lost about 50% of my mid-range hearing due to working maintenance at a coal washer plant for a number of years.

My saw is like the lower one on this page, but it is 25" rather than the 19" one in the picture. Looks identical though except for the variable speed knob which is same as the top one.

I cut a chunk of 1/2" plate to make a puller yesterday so I'll see about removing the balance arm and related bits tomorrow. Although, on second thoughts, I'll wait until the new belt arrives and try that first seeing as I brought the saw into the house out of the way.

Martin.


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## martinka (1 Nov 2013)

Oh, the joys of ebay. Today, *for the 2nd time*, I received the wrong belt for my Diamond scroll saw. Two weeks it has been stood waiting for this belt. Grrrr!


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## scrimper (1 Nov 2013)

Good god! I thought that has you have not mentioned it the belt was fitted and working fine by now!


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