# Petition for quality saw files...



## rileytoolworks (29 Jun 2013)

If you're frustrated with the quality of saw files, have a look here....
https://www.change.org/petitions/saw-fi ... g-handsaws

All the best.
Adam.


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## TobyC (29 Jun 2013)

Cool, I was going to post that, but I wasn't sure about the forum rules, or which forum to put it in.
I'm signed up, maybe someone will listen.

Toby


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## rileytoolworks (29 Jun 2013)

Hopefully mate.

All the best.
Adam.


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## woodbrains (29 Jun 2013)

Hello,

The petition being American, has it to do with the lack of good saw files in America, rather than the rest of the world? The American file manufacturer, Nicholson, has moved production to Mexico, with the reported loss in quality. But is Europe badly off? I don't do a lot of saw sharpening, but want to do more. The few saw files I have seem to be fine quality, though more experienced saw sharpeners might advise me different. They are Bacho and Grobert files, which are readily available.

What saw files do others use and what is good and bad about them? One thing I would like to know is, what size file do people use for dovetail saws? XX slim is advertised for 15 pip, but will that do smaller teeth too, my dovetail saws are 20ppi. Can't find slimmer files easily for this purpose, myself. I tend to use Japanese saws for dovetailing, which is why my western dovetail saw is the only saw I've not had a need to sharpen yet.

Mike.


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## Harbo (29 Jun 2013)

The person instigating the petition is Australian and the problem is also with Bacho and Swiss ones too.
Production is being farmed out to cheaper labour countries and quality is diminishing?

Rod


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## Tom K (29 Jun 2013)

Rod beat me to it. The petitioner also states he is talking to a French manufacturer about the smaller files so the benefit may be available to us in the UK


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## woodbrains (29 Jun 2013)

Harbo":28tv61ex said:


> The person instigating the petition is Australian and the problem is also with Bacho and Swiss ones too.
> Production is being farmed out to cheaper labour countries and quality is diminishing?
> 
> Rod



Oops, sorry, didn't mean t upset the Aussie. So many of the petitioners are American, hence the mistake.

I know Bacho moved production to Portugal years ago, but their hand files seem top notch to me. Are their saw files lacking? Grobert and Vallorbe, it appears combined forces a while ago too, but Lie Nielsen sharpen their saws with Grobet files, surely these are OK.

Mike


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## MIGNAL (29 Jun 2013)

I used a 5 inch extra slim to 'touch up' a 25 TPI Zona saw. Seems to have worked very well although I'd hate to address uneven teeth at that TPI. I don't think I will bother with anything above 16 TPI if it needs tooth shaping.
All the saw files that I have are Grobet. I think I have 10 of them although a few are now past using them for filing saws. Even those intended for high TPI seem to have more aggressive teeth than you would find on a good quality needle file. That's obviously deliberate. A couple of mine have a slight wavy edge (in places) to them. These have not been used. Perhaps it's that aspect that they are complaining about. All the other types of Grobet files that I own seem to be of very good quality.


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## woodbrains (29 Jun 2013)

Thanks Mignal,

Logically the smallest file I have will do my dovetail saw, then. I guess it is intended for 15 ppi and greater. I will have a closer look with a magnifier, to see if it is good quality. 

Mike.


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## bugbear (29 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":3rjbxbpu said:


> Hello,
> 
> The petition being American, has it to do with the lack of good saw files in America, rather than the rest of the world? The American file manufacturer, Nicholson, has moved production to Mexico, with the reported loss in quality. But is Europe badly off? I don't do a lot of saw sharpening, but want to do more. The few saw files I have seem to be fine quality, though more experienced saw sharpeners might advise me different. They are Bacho and Grobert files, which are readily available.




Grobert are available worldwide, so I assume they're being deemed poor by the initiators of this petition.

BugBear


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## Dangermouse (29 Jun 2013)

I have several old files I use for my saws, purchased from car boots and must be a lot of years old, but they do the job very well and if they get a bit worn, they can be freshened up with an acid dip. Another example of how things have cheapened over the years and all we get these days is nasty rubbish from the far east. Even if you pay through the nose for a so called premium file etc, you usually see the words "made in China" on the box.


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## Vann (29 Jun 2013)

bugbear":2xp6oft0 said:


> Grobert are available worldwide, so I assume they're being deemed poor by the initiators of this petition.


These's a very long, ongoing thread on the Aussie woodworkforum - which, IIRC, quickly relegated Grobert to the "poor" category.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

The problem with the saw files available today is that they are not consistent in their edge profile, their tapered shape, or their hardness, even from the same manufacturer. Bahco and Grobet Swiss are about the best that are currently available, but that doesn't mean they are good enough. The petition that Brett has started and which is now on many woodworking forums around the globe is really to say to the maufacturers that we want quality of design and manufacture, consistency and reliability, all at a realistic price point. We don't expect to buy two files from the same manufacturer, one of which will sharpen quite a few saws before it goes dull, whilst the teeth on the other one will crumble away after just a few strokes.

This is a global issue that affects all woodworkers whether you sharpen your own saws or not, because even the people you send your saws out to have to use the same files as those of us who do sharpen our own saws. Having to use crappy saw files is the biggest hindrance to people learning the art of saw sharpening. I for one would not like to see the art die and therefore I fully support this petition so that the next generation can hopefully enjoy the benefits of sharpening their own saws too. Saw sharpening isn't dying, it is growing as more and more woodworkers recognise the enjoyment that comes from using hand tools.

If you care about maintaining the quality of tools, please support what Brett is trying to achieve here. Please don't underestimate the power of the internet. Together we *CAN* make a difference.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

I would also add that most of the saw makers and saw doctors that you are probably familiar with from the magazines, forums and blogs are behind this too. Brett has sent them all a survey which they have duly returned. Brett has done an enormous amount of research on this, often at his own expense. He has looked at the design and quality of saw files that used to be available down to the smallest details and is working on a new design that incorporates all of the best features. The manufacturer he is in discussions with in France has a reputation for high quality and will listen if enough people get behind this petition.


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## Dangermouse (29 Jun 2013)

I hate to put a damper on this petition thing, but I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference to any file company. What makes a difference is their profit and loss accounts. so if you don't like the file don't buy it and if enough people don't buy it and the profit takes a nose dive, then things will change. The only companies who would take any notice of a woodworker talking to them about this is one that made bespoke files as a few off and would charge accordingly.


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## MIGNAL (29 Jun 2013)

If there is enough interest someone will come along and start making saw files to a very high quality. No different than the premium Plane market really. I'm sure the petition will have some effect.
Just don't expect them to be the same price as the current Grobet and Bahco, perhaps triple the price. Then again if they last longer they may work out to be around the same price.


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## woodbrains (29 Jun 2013)

Hello,

Unfortunately, if we stop buying from one manufacturer, they will just stop making the product, rather than improve it. If all saw files are poor, then we have no alternatives, we just cannot sharpen our saws any more. The only way we could effect a change, is to swap to buying from the good manufacturer, and the poor ones will improve their files to take the market share back. If there are no good manufacturers, we are snookered. Perhaps if this French file maker comes up with the goods, we will have a fighting chance.

Incidentally, I just found out that the Nicholson files listed in the Axminster catalogue are made in Switzerland as well as Grobert and Vallorbe. I wonder if they all come from the same factory , which would explain universal poor quality. ( if poor quality is the case)

Mike.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't mind paying more if I can rely on the product to do the job well and last longer. I understand that companies need to make a profit, but I've also had enough of buying tools that don't do what they're supposed to do, even when you first take them out the packet. I for one am not prepared to just roll over and accept the status quo without even trying to effect a change.


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## MIGNAL (29 Jun 2013)

Has anyone got a new old stock saw file from yesteryear? Obviously at one time there existed quality British saw file makers. I see there are some NOS files on Ebay listed as being by Peter Stubs. I just don't have the need for pippin files and I guess they would make for strange shaped saw teeth. Anyway, it would be interesting to compare a saw file from say the 50's to one being made now.

PS. Who is the French file maker? Do Logier or Auriou make files or both files and rasps?


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Just for information...

There are NO saw files made in Swizterland anymore...none whatsoever.
There are only 4 file factories left in Europe: 2 in Switzerland, 1 in Portugal and 1 in France.

The two in Switzerland (Vallorbe and Honauer) make precision files, but they don't make saw files.
The one in Portugal (Tome Fetiera) make saw files for the likes of Bahco.

Nicholson files are now made in Mexico and Brazil.


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## woodbrains (29 Jun 2013)

Hello,

Just goes to show, you can't believe all you read in tool catalogues. It explains a lot about quality control then.

Mike.


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## Reggie (29 Jun 2013)

I've seen this problem in a few hobby markets now, market pressures (price) seem to drive things these days, it seems like the French manufacturer is the way forward, they seem to be open to talking to people about improvements.

Of course another issue could be the retailers, they're buying the shoddy stuff and selling it on, perhaps more complaints need to be levelled at them for supply shoddy products in the first place? I wonder how much more weight there would be to the campaign if you started hitting retailers about it and those retailers then passing on their concerns further up the supply chain. Perhaps withdrawing your patronage from retailers that are happy to gouge you for price over quality?

There is no real reason for these products not to be produced properly, even if it is made in china, the Chinese aren't inherently bad producers of items but clearly these items are being made at a price where every expense IS being spared.


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## Shrubby (29 Jun 2013)

I have a box of the Stubbs taper saw extra slim - I haven't used them enough to compare with my inherited Grobet/vallorbe/Nicholson double enders
I have read a german test of files which put most of the commonly available files through the german test standard and none were as durable as files of 50 years ago
I'll try and compile a list of all the European file brands and someone can plod through and see if there is anything that isn't outsourced to Portugal India Poland or China
I think Japanese manufacturers would be worth investigating 

P.S. My Dad did an engineering course in the 50's and had to file a cube - and then file this into a sphere !
Matt


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Shrubby - I did a 4 year engineering apprenticeship when I left school. I had to file a cube too. That was hard enough to get all faces parallel, square and the same length. I can't imagine what it must have been like to then have to file it into a sphere. Rather him than me.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Reggie - Brett tells me that a fairly major retailer (in the boutique tool sense) in the USA "can't wait to get Grobet out of their hair"


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

A couple of other points for clarification:

Classes of files are:
•	Needle files - always double cut and do not leave as good a surface finish as a result. the triangular Needles are ALWAYS 3 Square meaning that the edges are not cut - not suitable for saws as it leaves a sharp gullet which creates a potential fracture point. Not a real big in fine tooth saws though. However, people are only using needles in the absence of a proper 3 or 4" DEST file.
•	Milled files - are exactly that - they are milled (i.e. material is removed from the blank to create the teeth)
•	Engineer's Files (and I always insist on the apostrophe) - are always double cut
•	Saw files are single cut for a superior finish. The are made from a higherChromium content steel to all other files because it adds toughness. This is critical for durability because all the force is on a tiny bit of steel (maximum 12.7 x 2mm x 2 faces = 51 sq,mm for a 2 tpi saw - which woiuld be a 3 ppi).
•	Precision Files are the classy brothers of Engineer's Files. The have a higher polish applied to the blank grinding because the teeth can be much finer, and therefore require the smoothest surface before toothing.

Do not confuse a Mill File with a Milled file. A Mill file is for use in a Saw Mill.

To see a manufacturer who does care about quality in action, take a look at this short video of Liogier Hand Stitched rasps. Gotta love a bit of Handel in a factory  Btw, when he is stitching the rasp, he has slowed down so we can see what he is doing.

http://www.liogier-france.fr/what-is-a- ... g=en#video


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## Reggie (29 Jun 2013)

That is a superb video, it's also opened my eyes to the fact that files can be left or right handed, being left handed that might explain a few things.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Yeah Reggie - I'm a lefty too and it does make a difference.


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Jun 2013)

What would the general opinion be as to a fair price for a top quality saw file?

Any manufacturer taking on the challenge would presumably have to make a range from, say, 4" extra slim to 8" regular. The extremes would presumably be quite low volume in sales terms, so economies of scale would not be possible.

Some special shapes of precision file can cost £30 a pop or more. Would you pay that for an 8" regular saw file, even a top quality one? How about £15 or so for a 5" or 6" slim, the sort of sizes you'd need for 6ppi or 11ppi type saws?

Low volume manufacture will always require a premium retail price. Would we be prepared to make enough of a market to interest a manufacturer?


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## MIGNAL (29 Jun 2013)

Bahco/grobet currently sell at around £5/£6 for a 5 " XX slim. £15 does not seem excessive if it lasts twice as long and does a better and/or easier job. Your £15 should easily file 15 saws +. Probably less than £1 per saw sharpening.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Cheshirechappie - You raise some good points and at the end of the day it might prove unfeasible. What I do know is that if we do nothing now, the situation is sure to get worse in the years to come. Exactly what price point the files end up retailing at remains to be seen. Personally, I would definitely pay a premium for a quality tool that I could order with confidence in the knowledge that it will get the job done quicker, to a higher standard and last longer than anything we currently have available on the market.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

More details from Brett:

What it comes down to are the following KPIs for file making:
• Correct corner radiii for the file & tooth size, and keeping the teeth on the corners rather than on the floor
• Choice of steel - critical
• Forging blank shape - critical (I'm thinking taper here)
• Grinding of blank - needs to be of a reasonable standard to get a single cut standard of surface finish, otherwise double cut would have always been used. Smooth enough to prevent fracture points being created
• Tooth cutting - critical
• Hardening & Tempering - critical
• Quality Control - needs to at least exist in some form or other 

Where things are falling down:
• Correct corner radiii for the file & tooth size - the teeth on the corners are too often on the floor. Currently the biggest point of contention - some files should be used with safety glasses
• Choice of steel - may be reasonable, not sure
• Forging blank shape - Tapers are virtually non-existent, and what miserable taper is there (to justify it being called a Taper File) is most commonly utterly useless
• Grinding of blank - woeful in most cases
• Tooth cutting - generally appears to be the least troublesome part. Poor results are from poor grinding rather than poor tooth cutting
• Hardening & Tempering - appears to be very patchy, sometimes absurdly so
• Quality Control - Wassat? 

The correct corner radii, forging the blank shape, the grinding of the blank and the quality control are the areas of most concern.


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Brett assures me that economies of scale will be possible - there is a worldwide market demand to satisfy. 4" XX slims are not only the biggest problem, they are one of the most commonly used sizes as people drift towards very fine tooth saws for very fine quality work.

The point that MIGNAL makes is extremely valid - people are paying big money for bespoke saws and using rubbish files to sharpen them. Would they take their plane blades out to the garden path to sharpen them? Furthermore, the new files will not be as much as £15.00 - currently a 12" regular of the right quality is not a whole lot more than that.

Just in case anybody has missed it, what is happening here is a pre-planned, co-ordinated worldwide strike. Brett has spent the last month researching and discussing deeply with top-flight saw makers/doctors, woodworkers in general, and a manufacturer. These discussions can very often go into "detail minutiae", for that is where the devil and truth lies.

This co-ordinated strike is a once-only opportunity to get this problem off the discussion table for good, and get on with saw sharpening, so we can get on with MAKING STUFF!


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## FenceFurniture (29 Jun 2013)

Well, I thought I should stick my head in. Andy has been doing a great job, but he's got some timber to cut today (hope your saws are sharp Andy).

The main thing I want to say at this point is that this *CAN BE DONE*.

*NOW* is the time to act. All that is required is about 10-15 seconds of your time, but you can leave a comment too, if you wish (please do - it adds gravitas). I'll pretty much look after all the rest.

It is my intention to present an incontravertible case to the manufacturer, first up. I am not about to waste time trying to convince them through protracted argument. This is why I need so many appropriate comments on the petition - they won't all be read (of course) but by golly they'll make an impressive sized pdf to email - all part of the plan.

I already have a well established working relationship for tool development with the people I have in mind, and we work exceptionally well together. There are one or two other fall back positions, in the event that this manufacturer can't be convinced or isn't able to run with it for logistical reasons. I think that is a very unlikely scenario.

I should say that this is not a commercial venture for me (but I won't say no to a lifetime supply of files :mrgreen: ). I just want a result.

Cheers
Brett


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Not as sharp as your wit Brett, but as sharp as I could get them with the files currently available.


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## TobyC (29 Jun 2013)

One thing for sure, if we do nothing and say nothing, nothing will change, at least not for the better.

A savvy tool maker will see this as an opportunity to make a name for themselves, and make some friends and some money worldwide.

If we don't tell them we're unhappy they won't know that we're unhappy, customer feedback is a powerful tool, but not if you don't use it.

Toby


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## Brit (Andy) (29 Jun 2013)

Very true Toby. I won't only be buying saw files from the manufacturer who shows their worth and steps up to the challenge. Manufactuers who deliver the goods deserve customer loyalty in return.


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## MIGNAL (29 Jun 2013)

Will only take one manufacturer. . . then they will all follow suit. I heard that sort of thing happened fairly recently with the humble hand wood plane. :wink:


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

By now, I guess you are aware of my goal - to get *proper* saw files made once more. This is being done in collaboration with people who really know what they are talking about (I'm a novice).

There are two distinct, and fairly evenly split camps on the vitues of a taper amongst these 15 experts. Those who want it back (as it used to be) and those who struggle to see the benefit. It comes down to personal preference, as Nicholson reflected in their 1942 Catalogue, and I quote:

_"Handsaw Blunt Files are frequently preferred to Handsaw Taper Files by carpenters and other EXPERT saw filers for sharpening handsaws with 60° teeth. They are parallel in width and thickness but their tooth construction is identical with Handsaw Taper Files. Edges set and cut to file the gullets between the saw teeth."
_
So, there has always been two camps. We should not forget a couple of very important points that are supremely relevant:

1. The were no power saws in those days, so saw filing was critically important, and was done by every professional woodworker on an almost daily basis (particularly here in Oz where they were using ultra hard timbers for housing construction during the MASSIVE housing boom after ww2)
2. The situation is now reversed so that most pros use power saws with TC tipped teeth, and it is primarily amateur woodworkers who are doing the saw filing. Only a few of this group can class themselves as "experts".

What we can glean from that is that a parallel file is ONLY for experts, and so by default, a taper file must make things easier, or more reliable, in some way for the non-expert.

One of the collaborators is Mark Aylward (aka "Claw Hama" over here). He has been classically trained in the art of filing TWICE in two apprenticeships, and these days he is a professional woodworker. Mark is also an excellent lateral thinker (as Tradesmen tend to be). He just wants to get the job done.

His thoughts on the taper are as follows:
The taper serves several purposes as I have been told and taught over the years from my Grandfather, school teachers and reading material etc.

1. By placing the small tapered end in the gullet *you can see the teeth, angles etc clearly before starting your stroke.*

2. A constant even taper allows you to push through the full length of the stroke and *keep even cutting pressure on the file and consequently the teeth*. You don't want a shoulder at some point along the way to change or alter your nice steady flow of your cut.

3.* Even if filed badly* there is still a good chance you will get a (leading) cutting edge on your tooth with the small built in fleam from the angle on the file. Even a Rip saw can commonly have 4° fleam, so 5° ish with the angle of the file. This small amount of fleam on a Rip saw is to help keep your saw cut clean and not too furry. Also once you have sharpened and set your saw you should do a light run down the edges with an oil or diamond stone to get rid of any little burrs or edges that may catch in your kerf.

All this is still on the side of the tooth on a rip saw when most/all of the cutting is done on the pitch/tip of the tooth with a Rip saw (as you all know) The angle of attack on this is adjusted with your rake angle. The tip of the tooth with a 4° fleam will have a slight angle across it but if you look at a lot of the high tech circular saw blades these days they have exactly that also. Shouldn't make much difference one way or the other to your hand saw. (only my humble opinion).

In other words, as you start from the toe, by keeping constant force in the push, the file gradually begins removing metal on the way through, so the taper compensates for this ever increasing gullet width (microscopically) and so there is always constant contact and the same pressure being applied.

Of course I accept, as does Mark, that different people will have different positions on some of these finer points (e.g. fleam).


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

So, what is meant by a proper taper?

Here is a picture of three files. The middle one is from Claw Hama (so we don't get our Marks confused). The two either side are a Grobet "Swiss" and an F.Dick and they were both delivered to me in the last week or so.

The middle file is a Wiltshire Austalia made around 1940-1950, and is Mark's favourite file by far (although he can't use it forever).







I'll have a bit more to say about the Grobet & F.Dick, but for the moment let's concentrate on the taper. Ok, ok, they have no taper to concentrate on, so let's move on.

I think we can accept that Claw's 1940 Wiltshire is the benchmark for taper shape. With that in mind I have measured the taper more thoroughly, dividing it into eight 10mm sections down the 80mm toothed area, and this shows that that taper is a very gentle curve, not a straight line. I did separate measurements for all three sides, and will show the averages.

Going from the shoulder down to the toe, the average angle of taper every 10mm is as follows:

0.2°
0.2°
0.3°
0.5°
0.9°
1.2°
1.7°
2.1°
and the average of the whole taper is 0.9°.

This shows that in the first third the taper is almost non-existent, starts to get going a bit in the middle third, building up to the maximum taper in the toe third. So no real surprise there, as it can be seen visually.

*IMPORTANT:* When I first started on this analytical journey a month ago, I couldn't for the life of me see why the taper was so important to some people. However, when I saw what Claw was on about it came to me all at once: the taper compensates for metal loss as the stroke progresses and keeps everything even and constant throughout the stroke. Bleedin' obvious when you see the real deal innit?

So yes, I am prepared to change my position in the face of supporting evidence and good argument. This is science, not stalwart opinion. I had originally planned to design a range of non-tapered files to present to the manufacturer, and they would have had a longer toothed area for each relative size, so that a good stroke length can be achieved - thus more efiicient. Not having a taper would also hhave meant that the number of different files could be significantly reduced (and that's really complex and long winded to explain) 

The situation now is that a proper taper range (with proper corner radii and toothing) will be the first priority, and blunt-end, untapered files will still be on the burner, but at a lower heat.

Cheers
Brett


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

Here are a couple of diagrams to explain what Claw is talking about with the "Auto-Fleam" generated by a taper file.












And a couple of other useful charts:



















And a saw that is in urgent need of a good file :lol:


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

Brit (Andy)":2rzpxy3a said:


> Where things are falling down:
> • Grinding of blank - woeful in most cases
> • Tooth cutting - generally appears to be the least troublesome part. Poor results are from poor grinding rather than poor tooth cutting
> 
> The correct corner radii, forging the blank shape, the grinding of the blank and the quality control are the areas of most concern.



*Supporting evidence for this statement.*

This is a (genuine) Swiss manufactured Needle File. Note the grinding smoothness of the shoulder, which is indicative of the whole blank before toothing.






...and the subsequent teeth produced (even though they are Double Cut):






Note the beautiful stamping of the name that would have us believe that they indeed manufactured it themselves, rather than telling us it was made _for _them by a rather well known first quality Swiss manufacturer:






One of my research assistants here actually spoke to them by phone a couple of weeks ago, and they confirmed that have not made their own files for about 20 years, and that they are now produced for them in India, with the exception of their Needle Files and Precision Engineer's Files. So there is no speculation here.


On the other hand, here is a file produced "elsewhere" (it is a 6" Dick) What?  






That sort of blank grinding leads to teeth like this:






and THAT leads to this:








And the pride of workmanship can be seen in the Logo:
















Are you seeing any similarities between all these files?

The grinding is the same
The tooth forming is the same
The steel colour is the same
They all have printed logos
The logos are all the same smudged black ink, and the same font

Other than that, the differences are.....what, exactly? Hmmm?


That poor standard of gringing leads to what may as well be a double cut tooth pattern - *which is eschewed for Saw Files* because it doesn't yield a good surface.

I go back to my Plane Blade analogy: you must have polished surfaces to get a proper edge. We do not need (even close) to a polished surface for a file blank. However, I do believe that they should at least *not* be ground with a rock picked up from the yard (I know that's a cheaper method, but really....)


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

Brit (Andy)":1o1cjjd1 said:


> • Hardening & Tempering - appears to be very patchy, sometimes absurdly so
> • Quality Control - Wassat?



You may have wondered what I was alluding to. The Pferd Files were delivered to me last week as well. The pic above (of the shoulder with logo) is the same file as these two pics:











In the box of 10, there were 8 like this. They were no instructions to wear safety glasses when using the file.

Btw, that file has not been used (by me anyway).

A well respected German manufacturer, not only lets stuff like this go to market in this condition, they are happy to put their name on it. Note that it says "Made *by* Pferd" and not "Made *for* Pferd". There is no indication on the box of the country of manufacture. Would they have us think that this is what German quality has come to?


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

Now there is a japanese manufacturer making the full range of Taper files, and I'll bet that they are very good quality (if they are MiJ), and probably a reasonable price. I have grave concerns that the tapers are correct, but that could be ascertained by sighting some samples. I have sent them an email, but have had no response as yet. Schtoo (Stu) from Tools From Japan (aka TFJ - _"Splitter!"_) is going to give them a tickle up on Monday.

However, even if the files are perfect, they may still be an overwhelming problem in dealing with them, if some of their English translations on their website are anything to go by. Here is how they describe the use of a file:
"Conventionally, as the tip of the blade is processed by electrolytic polishing (PAT) and the sharp blade of the knife-like material is processed in advance, the *concave part bosom* is deep and suitable for the material that is easy to cause clog like stiffening plastic, bakelite, wood and other light metals."
"It the industry first, we make both ends type file surface, made easy to guarantee the *balance of suffering*."

Ahhh...say what?

I don't know about you, but I find the idea of a concave bosom hideously unsatisfying. Whole or part. And as for any resultant stiffening - I very much doubt it. Plastic or otherwise.

You begin to understand why I am loathe to approach them if their range of files actually needs to be modified slightly (tapers).


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

I am waiting on two more deliveries of files to arrive - one from Glen Drake Toolworks in the US which is a non-tapered file made in Japan that Kevin Drake describes as "hard to imagine a file being better", and some Bahcos from the Australian agent.

The files will then be assembled and the logos will be ground (or washed) off, and they will be engraved with a unique number. Three very experienced Saw Filers over here will then have one corner each to assess, and they will be using the same piece of saw plate for this, to keep everything equal. It will be a "blind" test.

I do not expect these tests to go very well at all (in terms of good file results). I expect that the Japanese jobbie will be triumphant with the Bahcos coming a distant second, and everything else way behind, or failing completely. This is just my forecast.

From there, I will be preparing an extensive document for presentation to the manufacturer. It will include survey results from the 15 collaborators on what they would like to see, test results from the three Aussies on all the files available currently, a list of petition signatories & comments, careful documentation of the current problems, and new design specifications in great detail.

I would like to think that I will see a prototype in around 3-4 months. These will be sent to the collaborators (15, maybe more by then) for assessment, followed by a little tweaking, and then production.


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## Cheshirechappie (30 Jun 2013)

FenceFurniture - the technical research you outline above is impressive, and given that you're undertaking it for the benefit of the worldwide woodworking community, very highly commendable.

May I, in the spirit of wishing to see a thorough and comprehensive package of information to present to manufacturer(s), tentatively offer a small point of constructive criticism?

If I were the manufacturer receiving such a document, I'd be very interested to see an assessment of market size. I suspect that many outside the world of woodwork would perceive the hand-tool market to be niche and diminishing. If data can be gathered, perhaps from the quality tool retailers of several countries, showing actual annual market for saw files and whether or not that market has grown over the last few years, it could well sway a decision on investment of development capital. I may not be keen to invest time and money for just a couple of thousand units a year; tens of thousands a year and a trend to growth may well interest me.

Thanks for all the effort on behalf of wood butchers and finer craftsmen everywhere - may your efforts be rewarded!


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## FenceFurniture (30 Jun 2013)

Cheshirechappie":1jztfv4d said:


> May I, in the spirit of wishing to see a thorough and comprehensive package of information to present to manufacturer(s), tentatively offer a small point of constructive criticism?



Absolutely - anytime, CC. That's what it's all about. I won't ever pretend that I have the total solution before consultation with relevant parties from different skill sets and perspectives. That's half the reason for the detail in the posts here - get people thinking and commenting. That detail is elsewhere to see, but front and centre is better.

Coming to your ideas on market research: one retailer in NY uses and sells about 1500 files per year, and you know how many retailers there are in the States - heaps. I also have a pretty good connection at Lee Valley - R.Lee. He will be quite genorous with his info I'm sure. Another chap in Germany is on speaking terms with Thomas Lie Nielsen, and my email has been forwarded to him, and also Chris Schwarz.

So, you are spot on - $$ drives it, although the first choice manufacturer isn't € driven, funnily enough. They are boutique tool makers who have a lot of file making machines that don't do much (so my kinda guys). Depending upon demand it may transpire that these machines aren't up to the numbers. I would have thought that there must be any amount of file making machinery floating around Europe - he might even get paid to take it away.

As a "wet the finger in the breeze" guestimate I'd say there is a conservative bare minmum €100,000 turnover (wholesale) per annum to be had for a tap on the shoulder, no marketing whatsoever apart from posting out some samples.

Cheers
Brett


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## Corneel (30 Jun 2013)

Wow Fence, that's more then I ever knew about sawfiles!
I've had plenty of files with bad corner teeth. That is a pretty obvious defect, even I can see. And the F. Dick files I use most often are quite hard and brittle, not very goo either.

Thanks for diving into this. Of course I signed the petition, allthough I am very small scale sawfiler with just 10 saws to maintane. Very occasionally Ii make a saw or repair a vintage one, so I know what ot takes in files.


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## rafezetter (1 Jul 2013)

Signed for future interest. I'll need good files for the vintage saws I'll be buying from you older fellers once you hang up the toolbelt for good. There's something that seems far more "traditional and honest" about old tools even though they were all that was available at the time. 40 years from now you'll have people selling "vintage" veritas planes on ebay...


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## rafezetter (1 Jul 2013)

FenceFurniture":1bjfofcm said:


> Brit (Andy)":1bjfofcm said:
> 
> 
> > Where things are falling down:
> ...



Geez.... what a state of those files!! My modellers needle files are much better than that - but I've had them nigh on 15 years and they weren't new then.

If I saw those for sale I'd accuse the shop of selling counterfeit goods as genuine "swiss made" items. Everyone knows what swiss made looks like - that's precisely (or not so it seems) why it's become synonymous with quality. Those just look awful even to my untrained eye.


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## Brit (Andy) (1 Jul 2013)

It is a bit of an eye opener isn't it? Makes me feel like someone is trying to take me for a mug, but we're onto them.


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## FenceFurniture (1 Jul 2013)

rafezetter":bonkrqqb said:


> Signed for future interest. I'll need good files for the vintage saws I'll be buying from you older fellers once you hang up the toolbelt for good.


This is quite a major point rafezetter. During this "campaign" I have seen a number of people saying "Problem? What problem? I buy NOS files and they are great.".

This is extraordinarily small picture thinking, and attitudes like that are part of the problem. Have any of those people stopped to think about just how _exactly finite_ the supply of NOS files (or anything) is? I have great trouble with this kind of "*I'm* alright Jack" thinking. What about the rest of the world eh?

Furthermore, this is self-defeating short term thinking. I'd love them to explain what they'll be doing when the supply of NOS files is finally exhausted (probably won't be long either). As the supply goes critical the prices will rise, and they'll become harder and harder to find, and these people will have to spend more and more time hunting down the supply, instead of getting on with the sharpening so they can get on with cutting timber so they can get on with MAKING STUFF.

Or is scouring eBay their real hobby?

The whole argument just beggars belief quite frankly.

Regards
FF (not FFF, if you don't mind :lol: )


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## FenceFurniture (1 Jul 2013)

There are 343 signatures on the petition now, and the braekdown, counrty by country is:
*ASIA PACIFIC* 
Australia 48
New Zealand 2

*THE AMERICAS	*
United States	249
Canada 12

*UK & EUROPE	*
United Kingdom 15
Germany 4
Switzerland 1
Netherlands 1
Spain 1
Serbia 1
Hungary 1

*SCANDINAVIA	*
Denmark 1
Norway 2
Sweden 4

*AFRICA	*
South Africa 1


Should I post the populations of some of those countries? Might put a bit of perspective on it.


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## Brit (Andy) (1 Jul 2013)

Psst! I won't tell anyone, but Scandinavia consists of Denmark, Norway and Sweden.


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## Reggie (1 Jul 2013)

Looking at the state of most of the files and how they're made, it almost smells like collusion to produce a junk product to promote the sale of power tools. I know that's a reach but if you look at it logically, with a well built file set and the saws your dad gave you, the saws will probably last you a lifetime, just like a decent hand plane.

One thing I wonder about though is how widespread the skills are to do hand sharpening of saw blades? any monkey can wave a raspy thing at a bit of metal but not everyone will be able to do it well. 

I wonder if your campaign could be backed up with a sacrificial saw and some video of using good vs bad files and high quality videos to show how to get a good edge without using 100s of £s worth of jigs, if people see how easy it can be to get results they may be more inclined to pick up a hand saw, then respect and maintain it.

I've got a couple of ripsaws in the garage that need de-rusting, I'd rather spend £10-15 on a decent file to fix them up than junk them and buy new but only if I know I'm not going to waste money on a decent file to find out I'm not skilled enough to sharpen the blades.


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## Brit (Andy) (1 Jul 2013)

Reggie - Your wish is my command. Grab a cold one and some popcorn.

http://youtu.be/u-_MF2Mnxwc

Enjoy!


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## FenceFurniture (1 Jul 2013)

Reggie":3c82f3r3 said:


> One thing I wonder about though is how widespread the skills are to do hand sharpening of saw blades? any monkey can wave a raspy thing at a bit of metal but not everyone will be able to do it well.
> 
> I wonder if your campaign could be backed up with a sacrificial saw and some video of using good vs bad files and high quality videos to show how to get a good edge without using 100s of £s worth of jigs, if people see how easy it can be to get results they may be more inclined to pick up a hand saw, then respect and maintain it.



Reggie I think that many people can be turned off trying to acquire the skill because the first time they try it with a rubbish file (unknowingly) and get a poor result, they'll be turned right off - tune out. They will believe that the skillset is beyond them, when in fact it's not. 

When the files come back from testing I will be doing another series of pics. This will show the state of the files before and after, and also the quality of the teeth they cut in the saw plate (which won't be part of an actual saw).

There are already a huge number of videos available on YouTube etc, but you could do a lot worse than to visit the world's biggest Woodworking Forum, and have a looks in the "Hand Tools - unpowered" section.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/

Andy, noted and adjusted.


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## Reggie (1 Jul 2013)

I remember that video, I saw the first 5 or so minutes of it a week or so ago but I will give it a proper watch now  That's got to be a good thing though, you've encouraged me to sign the petition and look into using hand tools more than I have been.


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## FenceFurniture (1 Jul 2013)

Reggie":2b9jdlli said:


> That's got to be a good thing though, you've encouraged me to sign the petition and look into using hand tools more than I have been.



*YES!*


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## Reggie (1 Jul 2013)

FenceFurniture, agreed, although I'm finding there are loads of things that will might put a beginner off before they get to sharpening their own saws :-D

With regard to videos, sure, I appreciate there are already some on youtube but I'm really talking about doing it specifically to back up the campaign, to get the message out 'go and look on youtube' doesn't really do it, however 2hours of Andy is probably going to do the trick.


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## rafezetter (1 Jul 2013)

Reggie":6jz0obmc said:


> Looking at the state of most of the files and how they're made, it almost smells like collusion to produce a junk product to promote the sale of power tools. I know that's a reach but if you look at it logically, with a well built file set and the saws your dad gave you, the saws will probably last you a lifetime, just like a decent hand plane.



This is pretty much what I said in my comment in the petition - you can't help but consider the implications of it. For example; Bahco make saws AND a sawblade + handle system to make changing blades easy - it's the mentality behind it "blunt saw? throw it and buy a new one... from us". But moving that along Japanese tenon saws are £30+, traditional tenon saws are around the same (although you can buy cheaper) any way you cut it (heh) £30+ a saw isn't chicken feed.

Has anyone possibly done a "average working time" of how long a new saw lasts before getting to a point where the blade is obviously dulling? I'd imagine with harder woods this could be shorter than some might realise (it's with an s you stupid american spellchecker) factor that with how often you need to do it, and it could be a number that makes shareholders wring their hands with glee.


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## FenceFurniture (1 Jul 2013)

It goes a bit further than that I think - buying a disposable saw means you have to accept whatever pitch, fleam, rake and set they decide you're going to use. You'll note I haven't mentioned slope - doubt if they know what it is let alone what it's for.

I'd be willing to bet that none of the expert filers ever use the same set of parameters as the throw away saws. That kind of saw takes way choices, and the ability to change your mind if you want to. 

Now I do know that this is exactly what the manufacturers of throw away saws want - the smallest range possible to maximise profits, but perhaps they have missed a point (or 10) somewhere along the line.


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## Reggie (2 Jul 2013)

The japanese saw blades are cheap, £10 to replace but then we're getting into the realms of triggers broom, 'I've had this broom for 20 years, it's had 12 new heads and 37 new handles'. 

I guess if you're jobbing on a site and it's all about time, time, time then stopping to sharpen a saw is probably going to cost you more money than a new saw, so I can see why the cheap saws are marketed as they are, it's a kind of just enough to do a job but to everyone else so far away from being able to do stuff for themselves.

Just a thought, when an £8 saw dies, is it worth taking all the teeth off and re cutting your own? Or are you going to go through more saw files than the cost of a saw?


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## TobyC (2 Jul 2013)

I'm going to throw this in here,... Even if you don't sharpen your own saws, the guy you send them to needs good files to sharpen your saws. And even if he uses a machine like a Foley or an Acme he has to have good files, because those machines use tapered saw files. The only good currently available saw files are NOS, and they are running out. There are more people sharpening their own saws now than there has been in a generation (or two!).


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## Jelly (2 Jul 2013)

Reggie":2fzy73qf said:


> Just a thought, when an £8 saw dies, is it worth taking all the teeth off and re cutting your own? Or are you going to go through more saw files than the cost of a saw?



Re-cutting teeth is not too bad (unless they're huge, like on a big rip-saw; then you need a fly-press with punch & die), I tend to use a three-square file to cut the teeth, then sharpen with a proper saw-file.

However, the issue is that a "proper" saw plate has been appropriately hardened, tempered and benched so that all the steel of the plate will effectively function as a cutting surface when filed... A hard-point saw on the other hand, is cut, shaped and sharpened as un-hardened steel and then just the teeth are hardened by electrical induction heating, so other than the extremely hard teeth, the rest of the plate is quite soft... Dead hard-point saws are reputed form a good source of card-scrapers when cut up with an angle-grinder, squared off and a burr turned.


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## Reggie (2 Jul 2013)

so they really are entirely disposable junk then  On a happier note, the 2 rusty saws in the garage have wooden handles and brass screws holding it all together, I didn't measure the tpi but I did look at the level and they both look fairly reasonable to me, whatever the tpi is, one looks like it's roughly 2x the tpi of the chunkier looking one. 

Both handles are in need of a finish coat of something but neither are cracked or missing any bits. 1 of them you can just about make out spear and jackson on the handle.

They both look like they have some pitted areas, I should really think about getting a plastic tub to chuck them in with some bicarb or if I feel brave enough I might go the electricity rust removal method. I've got a bench supply that will give me 12v @ 2-3A that I can use if necessary.


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## marcros (3 Jul 2013)

Out of interest, does anybody know what brand of file Pedder uses- he must sharpen as many saws as anybody on the forum?


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## FenceFurniture (3 Jul 2013)

marcros":2zn04ncb said:


> Out of interest, does anybody know what brand of file Pedder uses- he must sharpen as many saws as anybody on the forum?


F.Dick Needles which are made by UMV/Glardon/Vallorbe. They are available from Dieter Schmid Fine Tools.
http://www.fine-tools.com/euroscha.htm
Scroll to the bottom. The other F.Dick files shown on that page are made in India, and photos of them featured in my previous posts (as did the needle file which is excellent quality).

He uses Cut 3 or 4 IIRC, but just be aware that they are still a double cut file (all needles are, by definition). They are also 3 Square, which means the edges are not cut and will give a sharp "V" gullet (not a real big deal with very fine toothed saws).


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## Brit (Andy) (3 Jul 2013)

Only 113 to go to reach 500 now. Thanks everyone.


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## TobyC (3 Jul 2013)

Nice,
Thanks Andy.


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## TobyC (3 Jul 2013)

Nice,
Thanks Andy.


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## FenceFurniture (3 Jul 2013)

A surprising discovery yesterday. VERY surprising.

Whilst Bahco Saw Files are made in Portugal (for them, not by them), their Needles Files are labelled:
"Bahco Oberg Swiss Made", and what's more, under an 8x Loupe *they look it*!

That's the surprising bit.

The "VERY" bit is that Bahco aren't trumpeting this fact. ¿Qué?

Bahco purchased Oberg a while ago. They were a manufacturer in Eskilstuna, Sweden (which is the Swedish equivalent of Sheffield).


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## bugbear (3 Jul 2013)

FenceFurniture":11e5ujq0 said:


> The "VERY" bit is that Bahco aren't trumpeting this fact. ¿Qué?



Most companies are keen to promote their own brand, in this case Bahco, and not anything else (e.g. country of manufacture).

Robin Lee has often made this point w.r.t. Lee Valley products. The quality (specification and control), reputation and guarantee all come from the vendor, not the manufacturer.

BugBear


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## FenceFurniture (3 Jul 2013)

bugbear":3qnlrzfm said:


> Most companies are keen to promote their own brand, in this case Bahco, and not anything else (e.g. country of manufacture).


Certainly the likes of Grobet Swiss, Grobet USA, F.Dick and Pferd wouldn't be too keen to promote the country of manufacture. And in Bahco's case promoting the Needle files as Swiss might open them up to too many questions about where the others come from (although I think it must be pretty widely known that they're from Portugal - at least it's Europe).



bugbear":3qnlrzfm said:


> Robin Lee has often made this point w.r.t. Lee Valley products. The quality (specification and control), reputation and guarantee all come from the vendor, not the manufacturer.


Indeed, but then RL is almost unique in the modern age.

Another thing I learned yesterday is that Stahlwille still make their files in Germany, but their range is tiny (and nothing even close to a Saw File).

I meant to upload the table of Bahco Needles in the previous post, so here it is (nice high tooth count on the Cut 4).


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## Vann (3 Jul 2013)

bugbear":2g9r7b91 said:


> Most companies are keen to promote their own brand, in this case Bahco, and not anything else (e.g. *country of manufacture*).
> 
> Robin Lee has often made this point w.r.t. Lee Valley products.


Yebbut even Lee Valley promote their North American premier brand "Veritas" (must be made in Canada or USA to wear the brand name) and even when selling other companies products, highlight if it's made in the States or Canada (at least in their printed catalogues).

Cheers, Vann.


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## FenceFurniture (4 Jul 2013)

Here are the test files ready to be sent out to the first tester this arvo.

4" DEST Group:






5" DEST:






6" DEST:






5" EST:






6" EST:






4" ST:






6" ST:






6" RT:






Needle Files:





There are actually three other Needle files being included, but they are already with the first tester, so can't be photographed before.


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## DMF (4 Jul 2013)

Fair play, your clearly on a right mission with this and i can't help but be impressed with the work that has been put in so far so signed and good luck to you. Look forward to reading how well it turned out and where to get a proper file from when i come to learn how to sharpen my own saws  

Dean


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## MIGNAL (5 Jul 2013)

That petition is crawling it's way to 500. Apathy? Given the back log that the like of Wenzloff and other premium saw makers had I'm surprised it's taking so long to reach 500.


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## Brit (Andy) (6 Jul 2013)

I think we will all have to wait and see what the price works out to be. Having had to deal with crappy files though, I would certainly pay more for consistent high quality files. Brett doesn't anticipate it being that much more.

I just want to give a shout out to Brett for taking the initiative here. He has already spent a lot of his own money collecting samples of all the saw files made today, organising tests with respected saw sharpeners, liaising with manufacturers, researching the ideal design, canvasing opinions from around the world etc, etc, etc. I'm sure you can imagine just how much work this is for him. I only started emailing with Brett about 10 days ago and I already have a huge respect for him. If anyone can make this happen, he can.

Please give him your support by signing the petition if you haven't already done so. Even if you don't sharpen your own saws, the people you send them to need quality saw files to do a good job for you. Let's make this happen people.


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## Brit (Andy) (7 Jul 2013)

Only 55 votes needed now to reach the minimum target fo 500. Please vote if you haven't already done so.


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## Peter Sefton (7 Jul 2013)

Only 53 needed now  thanks Adam for telling us all about it =D> =D> =D> 

Cheers Peter


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## FenceFurniture (8 Jul 2013)

Just by way of a quick diversion while we await the test results. Over the weekend my son and I went up to Coffs Harbour to visit my father (about 500 miles each way). We have a long history of timber in our family, with the first immigrant from England (six generations back) landing on 28th August 1841.

Sitting out in the back yard, and I was gobsmacked to look at his (quite recent) paling fence and realise that damn near the whole thing is riddled with *fiddleback palings!*

















I tell ya - it was killin' me (esp in the context of my forum name). #-o 

Understandably Dad wants me to keep his address a secret. :lol: 

Son and I went down to Coffs Harbour Jetty on Satdy arvo, and yup, the walkway is made from the same stuff. In fact there were some 5x5 posts that would make turners weep!

Question: How does one go about arranging to have a fence left to them in a will? Could be a bit tricky with the neighbours..... :mrgreen: 



I have a tale to tell about Grandad's Axe, but have to take a pic later this morning.

Cheers
FF


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## FenceFurniture (8 Jul 2013)

My Grandfather was a Cedar Getter in the Dorrigo (a locally very famous timber area) in the first half of the 20th C. I'm sure he had a few axes in his time, but this is the survivor:





About 20 years ago Dad was travelling NSW regularly with his work, and was on the lookout for a replacement handle. He only wanted a genuine Hickory handle, and finally found one in a coastal town somewhere on the NSW south coast (probably around Bega/Eden).






He assures me that it isn't the traditional Grandpa's Axe (you know, the great axe that's had 7 new handles and three new heads, but by crikey it's been a good axe! :mrgreen: ).


However, the may be some room for doubt there because Dad was pretty sure it was a "Plumb" brand axe. Closer inspection reveals it to be a "HyTest Craftsman". :lol: 







Regardless of how many incarnations there have been, it's quite a thrill to be the custodian of Grandad's Axe (particularly as I never knew him).


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## FenceFurniture (8 Jul 2013)

*"The Prize Lies Beneath - hidden in full view"* 

Last off-topic post - I promise.

Those uniformly grey palings reveal stuff like this when planed down a couple of millmetres (about 1/16th" or so).







That's the inside of the Barn Door, and this one is probably my favourite:





It's "nearly new" timber, with just enough of the aged layer to give it the "character" that I seek. 

I'd REALLY like to see what's inside that fence of Dad's


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## Harbo (8 Jul 2013)

Nice wood - lovely colour and graining.

Rod


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## TobyC (8 Jul 2013)

You're lucky to have that axe, I don't think I have any tools that were my Grandfathers, but I do have plenty that were my fathers, and I still think of them as his even though he's been gone for many years.


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## FenceFurniture (9 Jul 2013)

465 sigs now, a mere 35 to get to the psychological 500.

Australia still has the highest take-up rate, followed by the USA. Just sayin'......

Australia has 63 sigs, population 23mill (defaults to the 100% rate)
United States 324, pop 316mill (37% of the rate)
Canada 21, pop 35mill (22% of the rate)
United Kingdom 29, pop 63mill (17% of the rate)

As far as a comparison with Facebooks "likes" is concerned, I reckon a signature without comment is worth two likes (at least), and a sig with comment is worth three (simply because of the extra effort involved - a "like" is just a click).


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## Brit (Andy) (9 Jul 2013)

Only 13 signatures required to reach 500 guys. Be part of the revolution!!!


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## MIGNAL (9 Jul 2013)

Bottom again. This country really has gone down the sh*thle. Full of lazy sods who can't even be bothered to sign a little petition. 
From workshop of the world to assholes of the world. This is a national disgrace.


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## TobyC (10 Jul 2013)

Look at the bright side!

Only 12 more till 500! 

The pen,... I mean computer,... is mightier than the sword,... I mean file manufacturer!

We’re gonna kick the bean counters square in the beans!!!


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## FenceFurniture (10 Jul 2013)

YIPPEE! 503 sigs! THANK YOU ALL.

Keep going though, don't let me interrupt you.....

COUNTRY	SIGS	POPULATION	RATIO
Australia	*65* sigs	23mill pop,	*1* take up rate
New Zealand	*5* 4.4mill	*2.5*
United States	*337* 316mill	*2.6*
Canada	*27* 35mill	*3.7*
Sweden	*5* 9.5mill	*5.4*
United Kingdom	*32* 63mill	*5.6*
Netherlands	*8* 16.7mill	*5.9*
Norway	*2* 5mill	*7.1*
Denmark	*2* 5.6mill	*7.9*
Belgium	*4* 11mill	*7.9*
Serbia	*1* 7.2mill	*20.4*
Switzerland	*1* 8mill	*22.7*
Hungary	*1* 10mill	*27.9*
Germany	*5* 80mill	*45.3*
Italy	*3* 59mill	*56.1*
France	*2* 65mill	*92.5*
Poland	*1* 38mill	*108.6*
Spain *1* 47mill	*132.6*
South Africa	*1* 53mill	*149.3*


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## FenceFurniture (10 Jul 2013)

Updated chart showing radii to nearest 0.05mm, and then 3 imperial "nearest to".





As you would expect, by going down in size for the "nearest to" it creates more individual radii as it becomes more accurate.


Interestingly, I have done the same circle on a photo trick for three other saws:
Garlick & Lynx *6tpi* has a *1/64th"* radius
Badaxe *9tpi* has a *1/64th"* radius
Wenzloff *12tpi* has a *1/52th"* radius

*It is paramount to note that although these saws have never been sharpened, and are therefore at the original gullet radius set by the maker, THAT cannot be taken as a standard, simply because the gullets are a product of whatever radius file was available.*

In the case of the Wenzloff he has used a slightly larger radius file on smaller teeth - he was probbly having trouble getting files! No surprise there.

The owner of these saws (Mark - Claw Hama) then went off to look at all his other saws and found that from 6 to 16 tpi all had a 1/64th radius - close as dammit.

So what does this mean? Well, based upon the above being true and accepted, it means that leaving out file lengths, face widths and tapers, and JUST concentrating on corners (the* MOST *critical part) there is only one file required to cover 6-16 tpi, AND THAT IS WEIRDO!

I'm quite sure that will set the cat amongst the pidgeons!






meeeYOWWW!

*Oh yeah, 502 signatures. YEEHAH!*


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## FenceFurniture (21 Jul 2013)

It only looks like it's quiet at the moment because all the action is "off-camera". I've completed the designs and specs for a new range, and have started work on the document for presentation. 

Also, I have sent out 24 files to go around to 3 different testers for evaluation. This is really just proving what we already know, but hard data is required of course. The first tester has finished, and of the 24 there are only 4 files that he would consider purchasing (no surprise). It must be said that whilst these 4 files performed "ok" they could be a lot better. I'll be publishing the results in a couple of weeks when the other two guys have finished.

In the mean time I'm still trying to turn up a manufacturer who is already making good files (wish me luck!). There are two remaining that need to be examined more closely - one in Italy and one in Japan - emails have been sent to people on the ground in those two countries.

The latest manufacturer to be discounted is Baiter in Switzerland, who now get there Needle & Precision files from Vallorbe, and their Saw Files look so suspiciously Indian that I am not going to even bother trying to get some sent over. Even the Italian company Corradi is now just rebadging other people's files, in a similar (or identical) way to Baiter.

Regards
Brett


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## kreed (24 Jul 2013)

Signed up.
It took me ages to read all the comments on this point, & I was left fascinated.
I've started collecting old tools, following on from starting to woodturn, & even through my ignorance some of the things I handle I can tell they're quality. Not so with files it's clear. As I'd like to sharpen saws myself the info here I see as invaluable. I have about 50 files & wouldn't know a good from bad.
One comment; we're in a throwaway society now & thus quality doesn't matter to the masses, & they're the ones making the profits for the manufacturers. I've been as guilty as the next person but poverty has made me less abusive to the things I have. Maybe a prolonged recession will change the minds of others.
Finally, given the weather, sitting in the garden listening to the cricket & cleaning up my car boot finds has been extremely good for the soul


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## Brit (Andy) (24 Jul 2013)

Thanks for signing Kreed. Every signature helps.

FYI - I recently recorded a free full length instructional video on saw sharpening if you're interested in learning how to do it. You can find it at the link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_MF2Mn ... upxpPo_QZw


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## kreed (24 Jul 2013)

Brit (Andy)":2mmplhdh said:


> Thanks for signing Kreed. Every signature helps.
> 
> FYI - I recently recorded a free full length instructional video on saw sharpening if you're interested in learning how to do it. You can find it at the link below.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_MF2Mn ... upxpPo_QZw




Oooo. Will do.


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## kreed (24 Jul 2013)

kreed":1tbamf4s said:


> Brit (Andy)":1tbamf4s said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for signing Kreed. Every signature helps.
> ...




15 minutes into the video.
Fantastic!!!! Very well presented & explained. It's fleaming brilliant!


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## FenceFurniture (6 Aug 2013)

The testing results of 23 different files by 3 testers of different perspectives are in, and I have collated them.

I have to write some preamble notes, take quite a lot of photos and then they will be ready to publish in a day or two (fair bit of Photoshop work to do as well - combining before/after images, teeth that were cut yadda yadda).


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## FenceFurniture (9 Aug 2013)

*Rather than clag up this thread with the test results, I have started another one:*

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post791279.html


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