# Wireless radiator valves.



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

Anyone have any first hand experience of wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valves?
The question came up in another thread, but is likely to be lost in the noise.


----------



## DBT85 (31 Oct 2021)

I have thought about them but not been convinced enough as yet. I know one popular one suddenly changed to a subscription model from being free to use once purchased which understandably put some noses out of joint. Sadly its the way most companies want to go these days to drip you dry.


----------



## Gordon Tarling (31 Oct 2021)

Our whole house runs on the Honeywell Evohome system - every radiator has a wireless valve. It now works fine, though we did have a few teething problems, mainly due to positioning of the controller(s) to ensure evrything was getting a good signal. Anything in particular you'd like to know?

G.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

I guess the main question is, does it save you money, and if so, what do you reckon the payback period is?
I was looking at the Drayton Wiser system.
My main concern is whether it would be a waste of money if I was unable to train the family to keep interior doors shut.


----------



## Just4Fun (31 Oct 2021)

Gordon Tarling said:


> Our whole house runs on the Honeywell Evohome system - every radiator has a wireless valve. It now works fine, though we did have a few teething problems, mainly due to positioning of the controller(s) to ensure evrything was getting a good signal. Anything in particular you'd like to know?


So each radiator has to be within wifi range of a controller? And if this is not true you have to add more controller(s), implying that the controllers "talk" to each other? That is likely to make a larger installation (like mine) prohibitively expensive. It would be neat if the valves communicated in a sort of mesh system. Each radiator is almost certain to be within range of another radiator whilst possibly being a long way from a central controller.

I just looked at the Honeywell site and they have a calculator for a system. It could not cope with my property so I had to lie to get any information out of it. I said I have a combi boiler whereas I have a GSHP. I said I have 12 rooms as it could not cope with more than that. I said I have a home wifi but they didn't ask if it covers the whole house, which it certainly doesn't. It calculated a price of £1842 and has the caveat that "_We have made the assumption that our radiator controllers will fit on any existing valves_" and I can guarrantee this is not the case. So my conclusin is that unless I win the lottery I can't afford to save money.


----------



## Gordon Tarling (31 Oct 2021)

Yes, each rad 'talks' to a controller, though lack of that range wasn't our problem. The controller also talks to the relay units for both hot water and heating, in order to open the appropriate valves as required. Our main problem appeared to be that some foil backed insulation which had been added to our garage wall, was blocking the signal to the relay units that are located in the garage next to the boiler. Our radiator count exceeds the capacity of one controller, so we now have two controllers and we solved our problems by repositioning one of them so that it was closer to the boiler. As for saving money - I couldn't really say, as we've had this system since we moved here, so have nothing to compare it with. What I can say is that being able to control the temperature of each room is the greatest advantage for us. Honeywell do supply adaptors to suit most types of radiator valve, but most of our valves are now Honeywell, so no adaptors required for those. We're running an oil fired boiler with a sealed system and separate hot water storage tank, so I don't know how well it would work with a GSHP.

G.


----------



## Just4Fun (31 Oct 2021)

Gordon Tarling said:


> Our radiator count exceeds the capacity of one controller


What is the limit per controller, do you know?


----------



## woodieallen (31 Oct 2021)

Why do you need wireless ones? Surely something else to go wrong ?


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

I don't think it's WiFi, as such. You'd be changing batteries twice a day if it was. I think it's some low power 433mhz link, although the controller connects to the WiFi as well as to the valves.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

woodieallen said:


> Why do you need wireless ones? Surely something else to go wrong ?


Because you can set schedules for individual rooms. 
I suppose you could walk round the house twisting radiator valves twice a day. Not that I could. My stepdaughter gets cross if we venture over the the part of the house where she and the two grandchildren live...
But it would be much easier if you could set it all up to run automatically.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> So each radiator has to be within wifi range of a controller? And if this is not true you have to add more controller(s), implying that the controllers "talk" to each other? That is likely to make a larger installation (like mine) prohibitively expensive. It would be neat if the valves communicated in a sort of mesh system. Each radiator is almost certain to be within range of another radiator whilst possibly being a long way from a central controller.
> 
> I just looked at the Honeywell site and they have a calculator for a system. It could not cope with my property so I had to lie to get any information out of it. I said I have a combi boiler whereas I have a GSHP. I said I have 12 rooms as it could not cope with more than that. I said I have a home wifi but they didn't ask if it covers the whole house, which it certainly doesn't. It calculated a price of £1842 and has the caveat that "_We have made the assumption that our radiator controllers will fit on any existing valves_" and I can guarrantee this is not the case. So my conclusin is that unless I win the lottery I can't afford to save money.


I think a mesh system would be too power hungry. I assume that the valves(which have to be the power conscious parts, as they run from small batteries), wake up at predetermined intervals to listen for packets from the controller, and to report local temperature. They probably have some sort of random backoff and retry system, and settle down after a while to take turns talking to the controller. It's the only way I can think of that they could run for any appreciable time on a couple of triple A cells.


----------



## Gordon Tarling (31 Oct 2021)

The rad valves are polled every 4 minutes by the controller (or vice versa) and definitely aren't on the wifi channels, probably the 433mHz as stated by John Brown.

just4fun - I think the limit on the Honeywell system is 12 rads per controller.

G.


----------



## Richard_C (31 Oct 2021)

I thought very carefuilly about this earlier this year when I replaced my 35 year old oil boiler, tank, valves etc. Too much work and cost to go to ASHP, house a bit old for modern standards. I ended up with conventional TRVs, timer and one room thermostat. Remote TRVs would have added over £2k to the install.

There is no single right answer though, it depends on your lifestyle. 

You can have no local control, conventional TRVs, stand alone programmable TRVs, the full internal remote system that you are asking about, or a full on remote smart control so you can rule your universe from your phone on the train on the way home. Each has its + and its -.

Here's my own answer. Now the offspring have left (one comes home for a few weeks at a time when he has work near here) there is just the 2 of us: we have predictable lives an mostly are 'in' - I am part retired and part working from home. The sitting room and kitchen are the places we want to be warm all the time the heating is on. Mostly we eat in the kitchen - and its no great effort to turn the TRV up in the dining room when you lay the table for Sunday dinner or guests. Everything else has TRVs set to 2 for a bit of background heat so we don't get massive heat loss from the rooms we do use. The one exception is the main bedroom, which ideally you would want to warm up a bit late evening. I plan to get a stand alone programmable TRV head for that, not cheap at about £80 I think but far far less than a whole remote system. It can open about 10 pm each night to save heating the room before that. I don't think a full on remote systen would do much for me or get me much energy saving for my £2k+. Except in very cold weather (rare), the house goes from standing start to comfortable in about 30 minutes, and individual room much less than that if the But it might for someone else.

In different circumstances it could be great. 40 years ago, pre children, my wife and I travelled a lot for our jobs, sometimes at very short notice, and had erratic or no arrive home times. A full on geo-fenced remote system theat knew when you were half an hour from home and switched stuff on on cold nights would have been brilliant - but the technology didn't exist and we didn't have smartphones or anything like it. maybe for a big family wanting different rooms warm at different times it might make sense.

We need to make our own choices based on how we live.


----------



## Ollie78 (31 Oct 2021)

Aren`t TRVs already wireless and automatic, I just turn them to the temperature then leave it alone. 

In all seriousness though is this a case of technology for the sake of it ?
I have yet to be persuaded by hive or any such systems either. Why I need to control my heating when I am out is beyond me. 
My washing machine has a phone app to download wash cycles?! It provides zero advantages, they could just include the programme in the beginning, its getting silly.

I am not luddite and think technology is great in general but this one doesn`t seem worth it to me

Ollie


----------



## paulrbarnard (31 Oct 2021)

We have the Tado system in our house. All the radiators (except the ones in the bathrooms) are controlled by the system. The house is three stories and the controller is on the ground floor. 
It does all kinds of smart stuff like knowing when you are at home and turning the heating off if you go out. Coincidently I'm travelling for work at the momenty and in the US but my wife is at home and she just texted me to change the schedule for the heating in our bedroom as she is getting up earlier while I'm not there. I was able to change the schedule on my iphone from the US.
I really like the system.
Edit to add that the system has been in place for four years now and apart from battery changes nothing has gone wrong with it.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Aren`t TRVs already wireless and automatic, I just turn them to the temperature then leave it alone.
> 
> In all seriousness though is this a case of technology for the sake of it ?
> I have yet to be persuaded by hive or any such systems either. Why I need to control my heating when I am out is beyond me.
> ...


Suppose you have four bedrooms. They're not occupied in the daytime, so you really want a comfortable temperature at bedtime, a lower temperature while sleeping, a comfortable temperature again for the morning, and then a much lower temperature during the day.
The living room, in the other hand, or your home office, will have almost opposite requirements. As mentioned, you could run round the house twice a day turning thermostatic valves up and down, but realistically, that's unlikely.


----------



## Ollie78 (31 Oct 2021)

I guess you have a more complex heating requirement than us, we just set the downstairs off most of the time as we have a woodburner, the bedrooms set to comfortable and thats that. System turned on or off by a moveable thermostat on the landing, so it doesn`t get confused by the woodburner.

For small fluctuations I pretty much put on or take off my jumper.

Ollie


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

Book


Ollie78 said:


> I guess you have a more complex heating requirement than us, we just set the downstairs off most of the time as we have a woodburner, the bedrooms set to comfortable and thats that. System turned on or off by a moveable thermostat on the landing, so it doesn`t get confused by the woodburner.
> 
> For small fluctuations I pretty much put on or take off my jumper.
> 
> Ollie


Great.
So, without wishing to be impolite or ungrateful, you don't actually have any first hand real world experience of wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valves.
We, on the other hand, have crazily high heating bills, and are looking at possible ways to reduce them.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

DBT85 said:


> I have thought about them but not been convinced enough as yet. I know one popular one suddenly changed to a subscription model from being free to use once purchased which understandably put some noses out of joint. Sadly its the way most companies want to go these days to drip you dry.


I believe that was Tado. Put me off. That's why I was like looking at Drayton Wiser.


----------



## paisawood (31 Oct 2021)

Plus one for Honeywell. I installed the system about 5 years ago and have been very pleased with it. The controller is in the centre of the house (13 rooms) and gives good coverage. We chose not to install honeywell valves in the spare bedrooms and their en-suite where we leave the original thermostatic valves turned right down (with the doors closed) except when we have visitors. 

Savings on the gas bill are in the order of 10% so payback period is pretty long but comfort levesl are much greater than previously. Also, we can turn the heat up in one room for a while with the knowledge that it will be turned back down automatically at the next switching point. AA batteries in the thermo valves need changing annually but the controller tells you when it is required so no problem.

HTH

David


----------



## Richard_C (31 Oct 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Coincidently I'm travelling for work at the momenty and in the US but my wife is at home and she just texted me to change the schedule for the heating in our bedroom as she is getting up earlier while I'm not there.



I'm not anti technology, but my immediate thought is that if someone who is in a house needs to text someone who is not in the house to adjust the heating settings, it's all got a bit too complicated.

The range of responses so far reflects the range of lifestyles, remote trvs will be useful to some, not all.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

Richard_C said:


> I'm not anti technology, but my immediate thought is that if someone who is in a house needs to text someone who is not in the house to adjust the heating settings, it's all got a bit too complicated.
> 
> The range of responses so far reflects the range of lifestyles, remote trvs will be useful to some, not all.


It's often the case, in my experience, that one spouse, whatever the gender, tends to assume responsibility for specific functions, such as programming the CH, or paying the bills online. So it comes as no surprise to me that a spouse might text another spouse to have them adjust the heating schedule. I personally think it's great that such things are feasible. Better, surely, than having to freeze your @$$ off until your jet-setting spouse returns.


----------



## Spectric (31 Oct 2021)

With a new installation you have to have zones, these zones each have a thermostat / timer and control the heat source, a term known as boiler logic. A thermostatic radiator valve can only reduce a room temperature because it has no control over the boiler but in bedrooms it can keep a room cooler than the thermostat setting as some people like hot and others cool. 

To have zones also requires more pipework because each zone needs to be independant from the other zones and so a wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valve that has been retrofitted to an existing system will not offer full control, but I cannot see any advantage to wireless thermostatic radiator valve.


----------



## Ollie78 (31 Oct 2021)

John Brown said:


> Great.
> So, without wishing to be impolite or ungrateful, you don't actually have any first hand real world experience of wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valves.
> We, on the other hand, have crazily high heating bills, and are looking at possible ways to reduce them.



This is true, I was trying to understand the need for them, having been intrigued by the post. 
I realise heating bills are about to become much worse for everyone and this could be a solution for some.
I am glad I had the woodburner put in a few years ago.

Ollie


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

We have a wood burner in the living room. I confess I have no idea how the price of kiln dried firewood compares with gas or electric heating, but I doubt that it's cheaper, unless you have your own supply. It is pleasant and cheerful, however. Nice to be able to burn offcuts as well, seeing as they seem to constitute the bulk of my woodworking output.


----------



## Ollie78 (31 Oct 2021)

Agree on the price of the wood probably not being cheaper than gas, I have access to quite a few pallets which I cut up through the year and my joinery offcuts. I buy one big load of proper kiln dried logs a year. which works out about right.
There is something different about the radiant heat of a fire, even if its actually colder in the room than if we had the radiators on it "feels" warmer. 
I was surprised by the difference a little peltier stove top fan made, it really creates an effective convection and warms the rest of the downstairs much better now.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

It


Spectric said:


> A thermostatic radiator valve can only reduce a room temperature because it has no control over the boiler


How about a thermostatic radiator valve communicating wirelessly with a controller? Why couldn't that have any control over the boiler?
I'm not stating that it does, or doesn't, but it could, obviously. And the subject under discussion here is wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valves. Do you have any personal experience of them?
I mean, really.. that was the question in the OP. If someone asked about the best way to cut dovetails, I wouldn't steam in asking why bother, when pocket hole screws would do the job.


----------



## John Brown (31 Oct 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Agree on the price of the wood probably not being cheaper than gas, I have access to quite a few pallets which I cut up through the year and my joinery offcuts. I buy one big load of proper kiln dried logs a year. which works out about right.
> There is something different about the radiant heat of a fire, even if its actually colder in the room than if we had the radiators on it "feels" warmer.
> I was surprised by the difference a little peltier stove top fan made, it really creates an effective convection and warms the rest of the downstairs much better now.


Interesting. I'll look that up.


----------



## paulrbarnard (1 Nov 2021)

Richard_C said:


> I'm not anti technology, but my immediate thought is that if someone who is in a house needs to text someone who is not in the house to adjust the heating settings, it's all got a bit too complicated.
> 
> The range of responses so far reflects the range of lifestyles, remote trvs will be useful to some, not all.


My wife doesn’t know how to adjust a manual thermostatic valve…. She does know how to use an app to turn the heating on and off but the key point is that it is mainly an automatic system. 
Changing the schedule on a lot of old school heating controllers is actually a pain in the back side. 
The fact that I could do this from a few thousand miles away is actually a major plus.


----------



## paulrbarnard (1 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> It
> 
> How about a thermostatic radiator valve communicating wirelessly with a controller? Why couldn't that have any control over the boiler?
> I'm not stating that it does, or doesn't, but it could, obviously. And the subject under discussion here is wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valves. Do you have any personal experience of them?
> I mean, really.. that was the question in the OP. If someone asked about the best way to cut dovetails, I wouldn't steam in asking why bother, when pocket hole screws would do the job.


My system controls the boiler too.


----------



## Steve_Scott (1 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> A thermostatic radiator valve can only reduce a room temperature because it has no control over the boiler but in bedrooms it can keep a room cooler than the thermostat setting as some people like hot and others cool.


A thermostatic valve does have control over the boiler, but not in a direct way. In a dumb system, the boiler switches on when there is a call for heat, either on a timer, or a timer and room thermostat control. Regardless of how hot the rooms become, the boiler heats the primary circuit and heat is pumped around the house.

In a system with thermostatic rad valves, the flow through the rad slows/closes as the target temperature is reached and less heat is lost from the primary circuit as water flows through the system. As a result the boiler (which is controlled by flow temperature) will stop firing, or modulate down to match the the heat input required. The call for heat remains, but the boiler itself stops firing.

In my opinion, ‘smart’ rad valves are a poor substitute a properly designed system (which would be individual zones for each room), but you can’t expect someone to retrofit such a system into a preexisting house unless they’re fully renovating. In smaller houses with limited radiators they might be a cost viable option but equally such houses are less likely to see the benefit of smart control as heat from one space quickly leeches from room to room through uninsulated wall/floor structure and doors left open. In larger houses, that have rooms left dormant for longer periods of time, the system could provide gains, but the installation cost increases with more rooms and it’ll hurt more so in rooms with more than one radiator as you’ll be paying more than once to control the same common space.


----------



## frankederveen (1 Nov 2021)

We also have a Tado system and are very happy with it. It manages to keep temperature in the rooms very close to the set temperature, also with multiple radiators in a room. It has useful features like 'open window detection', where it doesn't go berserk when there is a sudden temperature drop and very easy to switch between home and away mode also after already leaving the house.

We don't pay any subscription and have full local and remote control which is very useful.

It does tie in to apple homekit or something like home-assistant for those so inclined and then it doesn't need an external service as far as I know.

One major downside of the App is that it only supports a single account/home so if you have a second place to look after, it gets a bit cumbersome. People use the web-login or 2nd phone/ipad then.


----------



## Oaktree11 (1 Nov 2021)

I have a Hive system with wireless try’s in most rooms and it works really well. They were installed when we had a new gas boiler installed recently.


----------



## George B (1 Nov 2021)

We have Wiser and it works well, it was installed in February 2019, we had an issue with one valve which they replaced free of charge,I’m not sure if it has saved us money or not, we like the convenience and the ability to flex the temperatures when we want.

We have two valves in the sitting room, two in the hall one downstairs one upstairs, and then the thermostat for the kitchen dining room. All bedrooms are on standard tvr’s as we like them cooler and once set aren’t touched.

the sitting room valves are paired, the hall ones aren’t they initially were pair but we found it worked better to unlink them.

The range of settings is good, the ability to boost the whole system or just a room or the hot water is handy, there is an away mode you can turn just the heating off or everything, yes you can turn it on when you are away.

The batteries in the valves last around a year, they have just upgraded the software to make the valves a lot quieter.

We also have the plug though these are expensive and I’ve switched to Kasa for these.

There is a Charlie DIYte video on them


----------



## John Brown (1 Nov 2021)

As a sidenote, I find our existing conventional TRVs tend to seize up from time to time from inactivity. Someone turns one up to maximum, for example, ( because they think it'll warm up faster) and the room temperature never gets high enough for the valve to shut off. Or the reverse, the valve is turned to minimum, and the room temperature never falls low enough. Then I have to remove the head and tap the pin(very scientific, but seems to work). I'm hoping that this could become unnecessary with an automated system.
On the other hand, having spent much of my working life writing embedded firmware, I'd probably be constantly ranting about functions or facilities that the manufacturers had omitted...


----------



## John Brown (1 Nov 2021)

George B said:


> We have Wiser and it works well, it was installed in February 2019, we had an issue with one valve which they replaced free of charge,I’m not sure if it has saved us money or not, we like the convenience and the ability to flex the temperatures when we want.
> 
> We have two valves in the sitting room, two in the hall one downstairs one upstairs, and then the thermostat for the kitchen dining room. All bedrooms are on standard tvr’s as we like them cooler and once set aren’t touched.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight. I've not heard of Charlie DIY. Will check it out.


----------



## John Brown (1 Nov 2021)

I was planning on self installation, as we already have manual TRVs everywhere, Danfoss in one part of the house and Drayton in the newer part, and I understand the Wiser heads come with adapters for Danfoss, amongst others.
I had to replace a broken Drayton head last year, and I did contact Drayton to ask if it was possible to use a single Wiser head in isolation, manually, pending making the jump to a complete system. I never heard back.


----------



## woodieallen (1 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Because you can set schedules for individual rooms.
> I suppose you could walk round the house twisting radiator valves twice a day. Not that I could. My stepdaughter gets cross if we venture over the the part of the house where she and the two grandchildren live...
> But it would be much easier if you could set it all up to run automatically.


I can understand the theory behind that but are your daily household activities that certain that you'll know that between xx.xx hrs and yy.yy hrs you want this room to be z degrees and that room n degrees ? I'm sure I couldn't and there's only the two of us here. Still, whatever floats your boat. 

Personally I'm a great believer in the principle of KISS. I have absolutely no interest in asking Siri or Alexa or Bixby or any other systems to do anything for me.


----------



## woodieallen (1 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> It's often the case, in my experience, that one spouse, whatever the gender, tends to assume responsibility for specific functions, such as programming the CH, or paying the bills online. So it comes as no surprise to me that a spouse might text another spouse to have them adjust the heating schedule. I personally think it's great that such things are feasible. Better, surely, than having to freeze your @$$ off until your jet-setting spouse returns.



No instruction manual ?


----------



## Megaweasel (1 Nov 2021)

I have the Honeywell system that I put in about five years ago. I have an old cottage with stone walls and a large extension with UFH. My problem was that the conventional rads were all on one zone with one thermostat and was completely overwhelmed by the UFH so I had to decide to either re-zone the rads or use something with intelligent radiator valves. Honeywell Evo Home is ok but does have its problems. It doesn't require WIFI - as earlier poster said it uses its own network and I believe it is doing a form of mesh. It eats batteries - and doesn't fail safe- when batteries fail you do get a warning but if you let them run to flat (as I do - fundamentally lazy...) it will stick in whatever position it was in. The rad valves (at least the ones I have) aren't very robust. We've killed a couple (we have nine). The link that lets you use an app to remotely control your system seemed very temperamental - I only used for a a few months and it currently doesn't work. 

It does save me money as we have effectively zoned the house where it wasn't zoned before but I think its far from perfect. It doesn't seem to keep a very stable temperature but that could be because of the way we drive our UFH possibly.

I'm actually installing a Loxone replacement solution for both heating and lighting and while that will still require batteries for the valves, I will probably re-zone this time in the plumbing and put the smarts on the zone controllers. I think of the Honeywell solution as a gen-1 smart solution - It was kinda fun for a while but now I want a smart solution that really does just sit in the background and get on with it without bothering me. I'd say 70% of the time I look at the Honeywell controller it wants me to take some sort of action - usually batteries or loss of signal.

Chris


----------



## Frank House (1 Nov 2021)

The setup I have has been running for nearly 20 years has a single 'zone' for the whole (large) house.

As Steve said, the boiler automatically switches according to demand, it keeps the pipes close to it hot at all times, not a big cost if they are well lagged.

I set it up as an ongoing DIY project over several years, easily done room by room.

Simple 'on-radiator' TRVs for hallways, stairs, rarely used rooms etc.

For nearly all other rooms, I use programmable thermostats placed to sense temperature at shoulder height in a suitable spot and electrically operated controllers ("valves") on the radiators.

The radiators all seem to have a 'standard' fitting which includes the needle valve which actually governs flow. Just unscrew whatever controls it (casually described as the "valve", controller would be a better term) and screw on a TRV or electrically actuated "valve". No need to drain radiator or system for this.

The thermostats I use are by SALUS, just because that is what I tried first, their cost is (at least was) reasonable, and they have all worked so far.

For each room, one can choose wired or wireless connection as convenient. Wireless connections are coded to avoid crosstalk.

The thermostats I use need a couple of AA cells. They last for years and are easy to replace. Caution -- some makes of thermostats have built in batteries which are not replaceable, and the unit must be discarded when these pack up.

For wired connection the thermostat is connected to the mains, and a cable run to the radiator. For wireless use the thermostat's battery suffices, and the receiver unit is plugged (or wired) into a nearby mains supply and controls the radiator "valve".

With a bit of luck there should be no need to lift floors or make (large) holes in walls.

To meet current wiring regulations, radiators should be earthed, and any "wiring in" should be handled by a qualified electrician. Given that, it need not be a big job. It is quite practical to DIY and get it checked, so labour costs need not be huge. George B mentions battery powered actuators, no personal experience, but that would mean no mains connections at all and an entirely DIY setup  .

Decent thermostats should have a "holiday" setting -- just one button press. That is as "smart" as I want to get. Not interested in phoning home to get the system running for my arrival, never felt the lack. Makers can be mixed -- no need to pay for a "system". No need for anything to be online, good reasons not to be.

I am NOT an expert -- no responsibility accepted for wet carpets, domestic stress etc.

As for cost, we noticed no great change over the few years the system was introduced, but a great reduction in the hassle of adjusting radiators, particularly when family visit. I reckon that performance (i.e. comfort, cost, and convenience) at the present level would be hard to achieve with manual "valves" only.

Frank.


----------



## scholar (1 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Anyone have any first hand experience of wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valves?
> The question came up in another thread, but is likely to be lost in the noise.



I don’t have practical experience of these wirelessly controlled TRV’s, but I have spent a great deal of time looking into them (Honeywell Evohome).

Firstly, as to the need for such a setup, this will probably depend on your own building and how it is used - in our case we have an elongated victorian house on three floors where we can only be using certain rooms at any one time. We have had each floor as a separately programmable zone for many years and this works well, but is still inefficient as we need to heat up the whole floor if we want one room (in fact we do set back the TRV’s in the really unused rooms, but it is not practical to run round doing this to the rooms that are regularly used). In our case, the ability to just heat the rooms we want when we want, and keep other rooms at a different temperature or unheated, is absolutely desirable. So as it happens, after years of looking at this, today I am starting the install (so the thread is topical!). All I can do is summarise where I got to.

Firstly, I assume I am correct in thinking that the question relates to using wireless TRV’s in a system where each individual room can call for heat - traditional TRV’s will only enable you to set back the temperature in that room where the call for heat is coming from elsewhere (a zone controller or whole house programmer).

Initially, I planned to install the Honeywell Evohome system (that uses wireless TRV’s) and I planned out the detailed installation of these. I also use elsewhere a Heatmiser Neo system that I am now very familiar with and I subsequently designed an alternative installation to use this system. Both alternatives do the same thing ultimately; in the end, I decided on the Heatmiser system, the main factors being:
- it was much cheaper
- the Evohome system is mostly wireless (wireless room stats and TRV’s), as per the question posed by @John Brown. This would simplify part of the install; however, I concluded that in our case I wanted to avoid having to manage many many batteries; also the configuration looked more complicated as well as risks of dropouts in the wi-fi coverage in our building. The Evohome system was also a lot more complicated re connecting to our existing zone valves etc.
- the Heatmiser system is fully wired (other than it uses a mesh wi-fi system linked to a central hub for control - giving remote internet control) - so it is a sizeable wiring job involving a number of 8-port wiring centres to which each room stat is wired with 3-core and earth and each radiator valve actuator is wired with 2-core. [there is a Heatmiser option of using wireless room stats, but not wireless TRV’s/actuators as far as I know, so you could avoid wiring up the room stats].

I know this is a long way of saying I don’t have the experience @John Brown is looking for (!), but thought I would explain that in my case I decided to bite the bullet and do the wiring for a more easily managed (and much cheaper) system.

But, with a big house, I think individual room heat control is certainly desirable.

Cheers


----------



## Spectric (1 Nov 2021)

Steve_Scott said:


> A thermostatic valve does have control over the boiler, but not in a direct way. In a dumb system, the boiler switches on when there is a call for heat, either on a timer, or a timer and room thermostat control. Regardless of how hot the rooms become, the boiler heats the primary circuit and heat is pumped around the house.



If a thermostatic valve senses the room temperature is too low and opens but the heating source is off due to no demand from the main thermostat then that radiator cannot increase the room temperature. If it was wireless and could turn on the heat source then heating the whole primary circuit cannot be that efficient but as you say retrofitting a fully zoned system is going to be costly and could involve extensive work in someones nicely decorated home.

Another issue of wireless is signal attenuation within the property, I have used foil backed plasterboard in some rooms and this stops our broadband dead in it's tracks, so now use wired CAT 7 sockets rather than the BT repeaters which were hit & miss so another issue to consider. With a fully zoned system you also need to consider not only the overall insulation of the property but insulation between zones which increases efficiency, and control and reduces noise between the rooms.


----------



## Spectric (1 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Do you have any personal experience of them?


I have fitted many TRV's and wired many heating systems but being old school I cannot see the advantage of using wireless in your heating system when a stat controling a zone valve that gives the boiler a demand signal has worked for decades and is proven technology. Yes I like smart pumps and will use technology when it is justified but complexity for the sake of complexity is not in keeping with sound engineering principles of keeping it simple.


----------



## John Brown (1 Nov 2021)

All fair comment. In my case, I already have the TRVs, just need to add the wireless heads. So much simpler than plumbing in zone valves. Also, I can't rely on members of my extended family to do anything consistently, other than turn valves to max, in the mistaken belief that the room will warm up much faster. So we end up with empty bedrooms heated all day, while we're mainly in the kitchen or office.
I expect the wireless comms to be a pain - we have a mesh system for the WiFi, which is still fairly patchy.


----------



## paulrbarnard (1 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Also, I can't rely on members of my extended family to do anything consistently, other than turn valves to max, in the mistaken belief that the room will warm up much faster.


This was the core issue in our house too. 

A feature in my system is the ability to interface with ITTT. It lets me to set up rules that override things done by other people in the house. For example I have a rule that checks periodically if my youngest daughter has turned her radiator up to max and turns it back down to a sensible level. I have other rules that give rooms that have their thermostat set to frost guard to turn on periodically to heat the room if the humidity is high to prevent mould. Then they turn off again.


----------



## PeterSH (1 Nov 2021)

I have the Drayton Wiser system. About 8 rad valves and two room thermostats.

Does what it says on the tin. Have very specific room temperature schedules. Can change things remotely.

Only thing is the valve thermostats aren't hugely accurate, I guess cos they are close to in some instances a drafty floor and by design a hot rad.

I'd buy it again...


----------



## George B (1 Nov 2021)

@John Brown


----------



## Jonm (1 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> With a new installation you have to have zones, these zones each have a thermostat / timer and control the heat source, a term known as boiler logic. A thermostatic radiator valve can only reduce a room temperature because it has no control over the boiler but in bedrooms it can keep a room cooler than the thermostat setting as some people like hot and others cool.
> 
> To have zones also requires more pipework because each zone needs to be independant from the other zones and so a wirelessly controlled thermostatic radiator valve that has been retrofitted to an existing system will not offer full control, but I cannot see any advantage to wireless thermostatic radiator valve.


The point of a wirelessly controlled radiator valve is that you only need one heating circuit, each room is its own zone, independently controlled. So in my house I have 12 zones.


----------



## Jonm (1 Nov 2021)

To answer the OP, I have the Honeywell system, 12 zones, new build, works very well. Control is from the home controller, same as using an ordinary controller except that each room can be controlled separately. I can use the app on my phone but rarely do.

One good aspect is that if you want extra or less heat in a room you just turn the dial on the top of the valve and the temperature is adjusted until over ridden by the next programmed cycle. The temperature the valve is set to is shown on the valve led display. Big advantage is that my wife can do it.

I have had problems which the plumber could not sort. I ended up tracing all the wiring and identifying the components. It transpired that there was a “miscommunication“ between the plumber and the electrician. The wiring and programming was for an “open therm bridge”, but an ordinary external temperature sensor was fitted. As a consequence the wiring went to the incorrect terminals in the boiler and the incorrect program in the controller was used. Took me days to find the problem, a few minutes to sort it out, would have been quicker for me to have wired it myself.

It did not help that Honeywell did not seem able to comprehend that I have a four pipe boiler, two for central heating and two for hot water. Honeywell system calls for heating and/or hot water, boiler sorts out hot water priority and boiler temperature for heating. That seemed completely incomprehensible to Honeywell, but they did try and eventually gave me the advice I needed.

Anyway, I now have a system which is working well and I now understand how it works.

I attach a schematic of my system.


----------



## Jonm (1 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> I have fitted many TRV's and wired many heating systems but being old school I cannot see the advantage of using wireless in your heating system when a stat controling a zone valve that gives the boiler a demand signal has worked for decades and is proven technology. Yes I like smart pumps and will use technology when it is justified but complexity for the sake of complexity is not in keeping with sound engineering principles of keeping it simple.


I agree with you about simplicity however each room being it’s own “zone” is a big advantage. Bedrooms not In use can be at a lower temperature, lounge only heated in the evening etc has big advantages. Using wirelessly controlled radiator valves I regard as using complexity to increase control and reduce heating bills without reducing comfort.

All these valves do is replace the thermostatic valve head with a motorised thermostatic head controlled wirelessly, it is not rocket science.


----------



## Jonm (1 Nov 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> Why I need to control my heating when I am out is beyond me.


The wireless bit refers to controlling each radiator individually from a central controller so that each room has ite own programme, unused bedrooms heated less than used ones, sitting room only being heated in the evening, kitchen being heated early etc. It can be connected to a smart phone via the internet but that is not the main purpose of these “wireless” valves. It is all about control of room temperature.


----------



## Jonm (2 Nov 2021)

Richard_C said:


> remote trvs will be useful to some, not all.


I think the main function of these wireless trv’s is that each room is its own ”zone” and temperature can be individually controlled. The internet access bit may be useful to some.


----------



## NewbieRaf (2 Nov 2021)

Apologies if I missed this as this is a pretty long discussion however it’s important to note that there are a few wireless standards that are used in “smart devices” these days;

wifi - self explanatory- needs power generally cannot be powered via batteries

zwave - low power radio frequency (different frequency depending on country) mesh enabled

zigbee - 433MHz world wide, also low powered, mesh enabled

there are others but it’s get complicated. The more popular protocol is Zigbee as it’s particularly good with long distances (big subject) and you will find that systems such as hive, tado and so on will probably use zigbee (need to confirm).

Since zigbee is a mesh system if you have a zigbee enabled power plug for example it will act as a node within the mesh or in simple terms a repeater, so in essence the more zigbee nodes you have the better your mesh system and the farther is can get. Both zigbee and zwave and many others are best controlled via a local controller or even via the cloud ie. Alexa for example.

hope this helps pls feel free to dm me if you need any additional information. This actually maybe a good subject for my new forthcoming blog - more on that later


----------



## John Brown (2 Nov 2021)

NewbieRaf said:


> Apologies if I missed this as this is a pretty long discussion however it’s important to note that there are a few wireless standards that are used in “smart devices” these days;
> 
> wifi - self explanatory- needs power generally cannot be powered via batteries
> 
> ...


Thanks. I know a bit about that side of things too, having written firmware for a LoRa IoT device a couple of years back, and seen numerous discussions about ZigBee on another forum.
So I'm confident with the RF stuff, the electrical stuff, and a bit of plumbing( which I doubt I'll need). I was , and still am more interested in hands on experience of the system, and the sort of savings that might be possible.
Thanks to all who have contributed so far, please keep it coming if you have first hand experience.
Special thanks for posting the YouTube link.
I'm off to the Scilly's for a few days, but will be resuming looking at this when I get back.


----------



## MikeJhn (2 Nov 2021)

If a TRV sense's a room is cold it will turn itself up, even if the CH is off, but the pump running the colder water from the radiator will reach the boiler and the boiler thermostat will turn the boiler on, admittedly this may not be a fast process and direct control would be much quicker, I have to think that wireless valves are a solution looking for a problem.


----------



## Jonm (2 Nov 2021)

NewbieRaf said:


> there are a few wireless standards that are used in “smart devices” these days;


I have the Honeywell Evohome system, not sure what standard it uses but the valves communicate with the controller every 4 minutes. Fitted with two AA batteries which last for about one year or a bit more, I have not been monitoring it but I am not always changing batteries. The internal walls of the house are mostly dense concrete blocks and I have no issues with communication. No foil backed plasterboard between the different radio elements so cannot comment on that aspect. 

I do have an app on my phone which connects to the controller over wifi but rarely use it.


----------



## Jonm (2 Nov 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> If a TRV sense's a room is cold it will turn itself up, even if the CH is off, but the pump running the colder water from the radiator will reach the boiler and the boiler thermostat will turn the boiler on, admittedly this may not be a fast process and direct control would be much quicker, I have to think that wireless valves are a solution looking for a problem.


If you look at my post 50 there is a schematic of my system. I have two leds which come on when the system is calling for hot water or central heating so I can see what is happening. If the rooms and hot water are at the set temperature the boiler is switched off. It is only when a radiator valve or hot water calls for heat that the boiler switches on. I have just looked, cold day outside but boiler is off.

I have complete control of individual room temperatures throughout the week and and the boiler only comes on when there is a demand for heat to heat a room or hot water. The boiler sorts out hot water priority and central heating water temperature based on the outside temperature to maximise efficiency.

If a radiator valve senses a need to switch on it sends a signal to the controller which sends a signal to the bdr91 which switches the boiler on and a signal to the valve to open.

I do not regard it as “a solution looking for a problem”.


----------



## Jonm (2 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Why couldn't that have any control over the boiler?


that is how my Honeywell system works, no heat demand then boiler is off.


----------



## Boxer (2 Nov 2021)

I also have the Drayton Wiser system. I love it, especially now that they have improved the App. The real benefit is that it makes it easy to instantly turn on and off the heating in any room. So if there's only one or two of you at home then you only heat the rooms you are in. That will definitely save money in the long term. 

If you have kids spread about the house then you will have to heat the whole 
house all the time and so having it it will be less of an advantage .... unless you want to accurately set specific temperatures and heating times in each room.

Two other points are that despite the TRVs being described compatible with most valve stems this untrue and I had to change all of mine to make it work properly, which obviously added to the installation cost. Other thing is that the WiFi signal from the hub is not so strong and I had to buy a couple of their smart plugs (which act as range extenders) so the hub could talk to some of the TRVs at the back of my modestly sized bungalow.


----------



## Richard_C (2 Nov 2021)

I think its useful to decide of you want your radiator controllers to be able to turn the whole system and/or bits of it on and off, or just turn a radiator or two off at set times. You can achieve that last bit for a lot less money.

The next bit of explanation is basic - no need to read it if you already get all of this stuff. 

_In a conventional system, the timer/controller says 'hey, its time for some heat now, I've been told to turn it on at 5 pm'. That sends a signal to the room thermostat if you have one. The room thermostat says either 'no need, its warm enough already' or 'too right, its a bit chilly'. If the timer and room thermostat both call for heat, the motorised valve to the CH circuit opens (assuming you have 2 channels and a seperate one for the hot water, or a combi tankless system) the pump starts and cold water begins to flow through the radiators and boiler.

The boiler is at first sight a bit dumb: all it does is say 'well, I've been told to output water at 65 degrees, the water flowing in is only 40 so I had better fire up'. Its not quite that dumb, there is an anti cycling device. Imagine water comes in at 40, fires up. Water gets to 65, water keeps circulating because the timer and room thermostat are telling it to, but if it drops to 64 you don't want it to fire up again - it would be constantly and wastefully on/off with tiny changes in water temperature. So, its programmed with hysterisis - a gap - maybe 5 degrees drop before it will fire again.

So now we have hot water rushing around the CH system and in and out of radiators. If there were no radiator valves that would be it, all the rooms would heat up unitl the room thermostat said 'enough already' and stopped the pump. Room cools, off we go again. That's how it was in my parents house - no TRV's back then.

But with TRVs we can easily adjust room by room, but a TRV is a 'switching off' device not a switching on one. It's only relevant if the pump is running and hot water is circulating through the radiators. Set one to 16 in a bedroom, when it gets to that temperature it shuts that radiator off, saving energy._

You can of course go round and manually adjust the TRVs a couple of times a day in rooms you use intermitttently. That's what I do now. If you don't want to do that you can go full remote, as some here have done, or pick a cheaper middle option.

You can get a stand alone battery operated programmable head to replace the TRV head where it matters. One such is the terrier i-temp from pegler, about £20 although I 'm sure there are others. So if you don't want your bedroom using heat until say 9.30 in the evening you put the times in and tell it you want (say) 18 degrees from that time and nothing before. It won't call for heat if the pump is off like the super clever systems - what it does is turn off the circulation to that radiator so if the system is running anyway that room won't get hot until the time you have set. Saves you running about (or in my case, saves me remembering).

My plan (and its only just got cold enough to start using my recently installed replacement boiler) is to get 2 - one will turn the bedroom off after get-up time until late evening, the other will turn the sitting room off until later in the day so the morning cycle isn't wasting energy by warming a room we are not in.

I don't think £2k of smart full remote will deliver value for me, but £40 on 2 stand alone radiator controllers might repay itself.

The OP speaks of family who leave bedroom TRVs on all the time - this might be a simple solution.


----------



## paulrbarnard (2 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Thanks. I know a bit about that side of things too, having written firmware for a LoRa IoT device a couple of years back, and seen numerous discussions about ZigBee on another forum.
> So I'm confident with the RF stuff, the electrical stuff, and a bit of plumbing( which I doubt I'll need). I was , and still am more interested in hands on experience of the system, and the sort of savings that might be possible.
> Thanks to all who have contributed so far, please keep it coming if you have first hand experience.
> Special thanks for posting the YouTube link.
> I'm off to the Scilly's for a few days, but will be resuming looking at this when I get back.



like this? We have a lot of rooms turned off as it's only been my wife and I at home for a while


----------



## Spectric (2 Nov 2021)

Another option that I do not think has been mentioned is that rather than use a seperate thermostat and a timer, get a combined timer/stat which then allows you to set a different temperature for each time period and also for each day. The Honeywell CM 907 has six on/off periods per day so if you both work then you can set a low background temperature but then have it come up to a warmer temperature for when you get home. Weekends can be set completely different as you may be at home.


----------



## MikeJhn (3 Nov 2021)

Jonm said:


> If you look at my post 50 there is a schematic of my system. I have two leds which come on when the system is calling for hot water or central heating so I can see what is happening. If the rooms and hot water are at the set temperature the boiler is switched off. It is only when a radiator valve or hot water calls for heat that the boiler switches on. I have just looked, cold day outside but boiler is off.
> 
> I have complete control of individual room temperatures throughout the week and and the boiler only comes on when there is a demand for heat to heat a room or hot water. The boiler sorts out hot water priority and central heating water temperature based on the outside temperature to maximise efficiency.
> 
> ...


You'r first paragraph sounds exactly like my system with a Honywell boiler control unit that lights up when the boiler switches on for the radiators or hot water demand.

I have complete control over individual rooms via the TRV valves and the boiler only comes on when theres is a demand for heat or hot water.

With the Testo gas analyser I have I set my boiler to a real time efficiency of 85%, powers that be say it is only 48% efficient, these being the same power that say you can get 90% efficiency from a condensing boiler, all that I have checked are below 75% when first checked and tweak to 85% or there about's once serviced, I am happy with my boiler as it's over 25 years old and runs like a RR, at my age spending money unnecessarily is wasting beer vouchers.


----------



## Spectric (3 Nov 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> I am happy with my boiler as it's over 25 years old and runs like a RR,


Unfortunately they don't make boilers like that anymore, yes the days when a boiler would last twenty plus years and it would almost become a member of the family, nice big heavy cast unit that took two people to lift with no electronic's. But now like most things that was not good for the economy and people can now make a very good living out of replacing boilers that in some cases are only six years old, and combi's were like fuel injection replacing carburettors in that added complexity just provided even more income and expense for hard strapped families.


----------



## Dibs-h (3 Nov 2021)

I too have the Honeywell Evohome system - runs like a dream. It's been running for 2 years now - and only this week I've had to do a factory reset on the controller & bind the TRV's to it as it just wan't firing up the boiler.

Setting things back up again took 15-30 mins, so no great loss.

I like the fact that only occupied rooms and common areas are heated.

I do keep track of gas usage and worked out after the 1st winter of it being in use that a 6 TRV system would pay for itself in gas savings in 3.5 years (using 2.5p per kWh for gas , which is what I was on then & for this month). Obviously with the jump in gas prices, the savings will be somewhat greater and the payback quicker.

We did have regular TRV heads on all the rads but it really meant heating the whole house, as no one was going to go turning the TRVs up & down round the house.

I saw the Solus system\heads a few weeks ago - but vaguely recall it's limited to 6 heads per controller.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Jonm (4 Nov 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> You'r first paragraph sounds exactly like my system with a Honywell boiler control unit that lights up when the boiler switches on for the radiators or hot water demand.
> 
> I have complete control over individual rooms via the TRV valves and the boiler only comes on when theres is a demand for heat or hot water.
> 
> With the Testo gas analyser I have I set my boiler to a real time efficiency of 85%, powers that be say it is only 48% efficient, these being the same power that say you can get 90% efficiency from a condensing boiler, all that I have checked are below 75% when first checked and tweak to 85% or there about's once serviced, I am happy with my boiler as it's over 25 years old and runs like a RR, at my age spending money unnecessarily is wasting beer vouchers.


The two led’s I referred to are ones I have added so I can see what signals are being sent from the evohome system to the boiler, so I can see what the boiler is seeing. There are also led‘s on the two Honeywell radio boxes connected to the boiler.


----------



## mikej460 (4 Nov 2021)

We have an old, now obsolete German made FHT wifi system in our house. The house is zoned using wall mounted programmable thermostats that each instruct one or up to 4 motorised radiator valves to partially or fully open/close. Each thermostat is then networked to a central hub that connects to the boiler. Once all thermostats have reached their pre-programmed temperature the hub switches the boiler into standby (as long as the hot water tank has reached its temperature). Each thermostat can be programmed to a desired temperature at any time period on any day. It has worked well over the years but it is complicated, it isn't intuitive and if something goes out of kilter and needs changing then I have to do it using the manual. I have no idea how much this saves us and I installed it when we moved from a dilapidated oil boiler to a biomass and the whole system has saved us a small fortune in oil. I've programmed it to keep all rooms to a minimum 17 degrees 24/7 with bedroom and bathroom coming on to heat to 20 degrees every morning and evening, spare bedrooms run cooler. Downstairs the kitchen, hall and lounge come on each morning and the lounge stays on all day and evening at 20 degrees. In warmer months I simply programme the boiler differently and it overrides the thermostat system; this simply stops the boiler from starting and going into standby once the hot water tank is up to temperature. My wife can't operate it other than knowing how to press a thermostat override button if she's wants to work in a cooler room. The batteries in the valves and thermostats last a very long time, at least 2 years.


----------



## DBT85 (5 Nov 2021)

Well I just pumped in for a Wiser kit (saved £12 on it with that ebay voucher over the price anywhere else) and 12 valves. £625 all in. We have a large bungalow so may end up needing a smart plug and I can see us getting at least one extra wall stat for our bedroom. We cook about £1500 worth of oil a year.

Lets see where we end up.


----------



## MikeJhn (5 Nov 2021)

Dibs-h said:


> I do keep track of gas usage and worked out after the 1st winter of it being in use that a 6 TRV system would pay for itself in gas savings in 3.5 years (using 2.5p per kWh for gas , which is what I was on then & for this month). Obviously with the jump in gas prices, the savings will be somewhat greater and the payback quicker.


Don't understand that statement, if Gas has jumped presumably upwards in cost your saving on usage will go down, or have I missed something?


----------



## DBT85 (5 Nov 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Don't understand that statement, if Gas has jumped presumably upwards in cost your saving on usage will go down, or have I missed something?


If it was 100 units of fuel at 1p per, and you now used only 50, you'd save 50p.
If it was 100 units of fuel at 3p per and you now only used 50, you'd save £1.50.

Since prices only ever seem to go up, the short term pain of buying a thing that saves energy invariably pays for itself faster than initially calculated as rarely do people include inflated energy costs in their calculations.


----------



## MikeJhn (5 Nov 2021)

Arn't statistics wonderful, they can prove anything you want!


----------



## DBT85 (5 Nov 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Arn't statistics wonderful, they can prove anything you want!


If you disagree Mike then lets discuss it.


----------



## Jonm (6 Nov 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Arn't statistics wonderful, they can prove anything you want!


Dbt85 has helpfully given you a very good mathematical calculation showing why “with the jump in gas prices, the savings will be somewhat greater and the payback quicker”, to help you understand the issue. No statistics involved.


----------



## Dibs-h (6 Nov 2021)

For anyone interested - I paid £110 for the EvoHome controller & boiler relay and £50 per TRV head (6 heads), giving a total of £410. I didn't go for the pre-packaged sets as I was able to get better pricing by getting bits from separate suppliers.

My gas usage in prior years without the EvoHome, was approx 31,000kWh. For the last few years since having the EvoHome system in place, the average (over 3yrs) has been 26,500kWh, giving a reduction of 4500kWh.

For me an approximate payback of 4 yrs is enough to do something. Obviously different strokes for different folks.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Just4Fun (7 Nov 2021)

Dibs-h said:


> For anyone interested - I paid £110 for the EvoHome controller & boiler relay and £50 per TRV head (6 heads), giving a total of £410.


If you have 6 TRV heads does that mean you have 6 radiators? Or do you have additional radiators to which you did not fit TRV heads?



> My gas usage in prior years without the EvoHome, was approx 31,000kWh.


6 Radiators is a modest heating system, implying that you don't live in a large old stately home, so I am surprised that your gas usage has been so high. Why do you think that is? You are using more energy than we are but we have a larger heating system in a colder climate.



> For the last few years since having the EvoHome system in place, the average (over 3yrs) has been 26,500kWh, giving a reduction of 4500kWh.


Putting your 4,500kWh in perspective, I spent about 3,000 euros in (I think) 2005 to fit 90 solar evacuated tubes mainly to supplement our heating(*). These contribute about 7,000kWh p.a. so your TRVs are giving more bang for your buck than I get from my solar.

(*) During the summer they provide hot water, but our non-heating season is rather short. This year the last snowfall before summer was 6 May and the first snowfall after summer was 20 October, so for most of the year I have the solar kit switched to heating use.


----------



## Jonm (7 Nov 2021)

I was told by a plumber about one of his customers who had a large house with a system which was under sized in terms of pipe work and boiler. He fitted the Evohome system and was able to heat the occupied rooms to a higher temperature. The customer was apparently very satisfied.

I used to own a large listed building. Cost a fortune to heat, had thermostatic valves but as others have said, the family had no concept of how to use them, If the room is not warm enough then turn them up to maximum.

With the Evohome system if a room is not warm enough, then turn a dial on the top and there is a digital display of the temperature, my wife can use it. she has even been known to then turn it down if the room gets too hot! On the next programming cycle the valve is reset. From that point of view the digital display is much better. It would have saved me a fortune in my old house.

My wife is perfectly capable of programming the system but has absolutely no interest in doing so. Bit similar to me and ironing.


----------



## Dibs-h (7 Nov 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> If you have 6 TRV heads does that mean you have 6 radiators? Or do you have additional radiators to which you did not fit TRV heads?



6 TRV heads - living room, dining room & bedrooms have them on. Kitchen, downstairs WC & bathroom don't. They just have the regular TRV heads except the WC which is the bypass radiator. The large hallway is also a regular TRV - if that one had an EvoHome TRV, it would be forever turning the heating off as it's near the outside door (would register drafts as the door is used & turn that rad off a lot).

Then there's a few other rooms that aren't really used that have regular TRV's set so the room isn't cold but isn't toasty either. 



Just4Fun said:


> 6 Radiators is a modest heating system, implying that you don't live in a large old stately home, so I am surprised that your gas usage has been so high. Why do you think that is? You are using more energy than we are but we have a larger heating system in a colder climate.



It's a 110yr old house with 10 foot ceilings and not really energy efficient but something I'm working on.



Just4Fun said:


> Putting your 4,500kWh in perspective, I spent about 3,000 euros in (I think) 2005 to fit 90 solar evacuated tubes mainly to supplement our heating(*). These contribute about 7,000kWh p.a. so your TRVs are giving more bang for your buck than I get from my solar.
> 
> (*) During the summer they provide hot water, but our non-heating season is rather short. This year the last snowfall before summer was 6 May and the first snowfall after summer was 20 October, so for most of the year I have the solar kit switched to heating use.



They're on my list of things in the future.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h (7 Nov 2021)

Jonm said:


> With the Evohome system if a room is not warm enough, then turn a dial on the top and there is a digital display of the temperature, my wife can use it. she has even been known to then turn it down if the room gets too hot! On the next programming cycle the valve is reset. From that point of view the digital display is much better. It would have saved me a fortune in my old house.



You can disable the "local" override on the EvoHome TRV's on a zone by zone basis if you wish. 



Jonm said:


> My wife is perfectly capable of programming the system but has absolutely no interest in doing so.



Don't get me started on that bit...the number of times I've driven her car and asked her (who's sat in the front passenger seat) what the noise is that I can hear & the answer has always been the same.."What noise?".


----------



## John Brown (8 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> Another option that I do not think has been mentioned is that rather than use a seperate thermostat and a timer, get a combined timer/stat which then allows you to set a different temperature for each time period and also for each day. The Honeywell CM 907 has six on/off periods per day so if you both work then you can set a low background temperature but then have it come up to a warmer temperature for when you get home. Weekends can be set completely different as you may be at home.


Thanks. We already have that. It's the control over individual rooms I'm after.


paulrbarnard said:


> like this? We have a lot of rooms turned off as it's only been my wife and I at home for a while
> View attachment 121087
> View attachment 121088


That's interesting. I was avoiding Tado, as I think thay were the ones who'd changed to a subscription system, although I could be wrong.


----------



## John Brown (8 Nov 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Well I just pumped in for a Wiser kit (saved £12 on it with that ebay voucher over the price anywhere else) and 12 valves. £625 all in. We have a large bungalow so may end up needing a smart plug and I can see us getting at least one extra wall stat for our bedroom. We cook about £1500 worth of oil a year.
> 
> Lets see where we end up.


I'm looking right now, and the prices(as with everthing) seem to be rising. Toolstation have the best prices, but seem to have nothing available for delivery, and apart from checking every single branch individually, there seems to be no way of locating stock for collection..


----------



## DBT85 (8 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm looking right now, and the prices(as with everthing) seem to be rising. Toolstation have the best prices, but seem to have nothing available for delivery, and apart from checking every single branch individually, there seems to be no way of locating stock for collection..


I wouldn't be surprised if that's just toolstation lowering the price to get search hits. The valves are pretty much exactly the same wherever you get them so it would be odd that they were that much of an outlier.


----------



## paulrbarnard (8 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Thanks. We already have that. It's the control over individual rooms I'm after.
> 
> That's interesting. I was avoiding Tado, as I think thay were the ones who'd changed to a subscription system, although I could be wrong.



No subscription with todo


----------



## DBT85 (8 Nov 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> No subscription with todo


No forced sub no, but automated geofencing and automated window open shutoff used to be free but then got put behind a £2.99 subscription. Not essential but it wigged me out enough seeing that they just up and changed the model rather than adding a sub for new features that it put me off as I mentioned right at the start of the thread. Like someone that justifies cheating on the wife, they did it once and told themselves it was OK. They'll likely do it again.


----------



## paulrbarnard (8 Nov 2021)

DBT85 said:


> No forced sub no, but automated geofencing and automated window open shutoff used to be free but then got put behind a £2.99 subscription. Not essential but it wigged me out enough seeing that they just up and changed the model rather than adding a sub for new features that it put me off as I mentioned right at the start of the thread. Like someone that justifies cheating on the wife, they did it once and told themselves it was OK. They'll likely do it again.


I guess I must be grandfathered in because I have both those services and no subscription.


----------



## DBT85 (9 Nov 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> I guess I must be grandfathered in because I have both those services and no subscription.


They did. If you own the V1, 2 or 3 kit you can pay £20 to get the new 3+ app and then I believe its free still, but basically they changed the model, customers went mental that previously free stuff was now sub based so they half backtracked to the point of only hitting new customers with the new fee. Iirc there was a bit of a scramble among some to buy the older v1,2 or 3 sets that come with the old app that can be upgraded rather than paying for the new 3+ kit which would require the subscription for those features.









The Tado Backlash


How some terrible decisions now threaten the once-great provider of smart-heating solutions.




medium.com


----------



## John Brown (9 Nov 2021)

DBT85 said:


> They did. If you own the V1, 2 or 3 kit you can pay £20 to get the new 3+ app and then I believe its free still, but basically they changed the model, customers went mental that previously free stuff was now sub based so they half backtracked to the point of only hitting new customers with the new fee. Iirc there was a bit of a scramble among some to buy the older v1,2 or 3 sets that come with the old app that can be upgraded rather than paying for the new 3+ kit which would require the subscription for those features.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I knew I'd read something that put me off Tado.
I would be interested in your experience fitting the Wiser kit.
We already have s Drayton controller, so should be standard backplate. Also a Drayton RF programmer in the hallway, with a receiver in the boiler room, so should be fairly simple.
I will walk round with a tape measure later to see if any valve sites are space constrained.


----------



## DBT85 (9 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Thanks for that. I knew I'd read something that put me off Tado.
> I would be interested in your experience fitting the Wiser kit.
> We already have s Drayton controller, so should be standard backplate. Also a Drayton RF programmer in the hallway, with a receiver in the boiler room, so should be fairly simple.
> I will walk round with a tape measure later to see if any valve sites are space constrained.


I'll document it. Mine isn't a standard backplate but it can't be too complicated. The valves have been here 3 days but the brains are with parcel force still! 

Also took the effort to get some clamp type thermocouples to help balance the system.


----------



## DBT85 (10 Nov 2021)

So. My backplate was in fact a standard for the wiring, just not a standard for fitting to anyone elses programmers. I took a moment to double check and have for now lashed the Wiser box in. I'll have to rejig some things for permanence but didn't want to get too creative until I was happy it was all working. The confusing part is that there are 6 wires that go into the backplate (N, L, 1,2,3,4). My system doesn't use 2 and it works . So with that done easily the signup was painless.

For the valves I already had Drayton TRV4 valves, so I just needed to use the metal collar and the smaller black connector to attach the valves. Put the black bit inside the metal bit and then attach it to the valve. So it up as tight as you can and then when it comes to installing on the radiator do up the metal collar with the valve clocked say 20 degrees anti clockwise so that once the collar is done up you can crank the valve round to line up in an aesthetically pleasing fashion. If you over or under egg it just undo the collar to correct.

DO read the instructions on the app. You put the batteries in, turn the nob right for 2 secs, it pairs, then you install it and then turn the knob right for 2 secs for it to calibrate. The first 2 I did I skipped the last part but noticed by the time I'd done the 3rd, so just reset the valves and repaired them and then calibrated.

All 12 are now done and I have set some schedules up. It all works as it should it would appear so we'll see how we get on. Alexa is set up so she can ignore me as usual. 

Right now I just have 1 room thermostat in the living room but I can see us getting a few more. I've already noticed some radiators coming on while others aren't because the schedule says it isn't needed.

To finish it up I'll have to disable the old thermostat which is currently just set to On so that the wiser can control everything.


----------



## John Brown (10 Nov 2021)

DBT85 said:


> So. My backplate was in fact a standard for the wiring, just not a standard for fitting to anyone elses programmers. I took a moment to double check and have for now lashed the Wiser box in. I'll have to rejig some things for permanence but didn't want to get too creative until I was happy it was all working. The confusing part is that there are 6 wires that go into the backplate (N, L, 1,2,3,4). My system doesn't use 2 and it works . So with that done easily the signup was painless.
> 
> For the valves I already had Drayton TRV4 valves, so I just needed to use the metal collar and the smaller black connector to attach the valves. Put the black bit inside the metal bit and then attach it to the valve. So it up as tight as you can and then when it comes to installing on the radiator do up the metal collar with the valve clocked say 20 degrees anti clockwise so that once the collar is done up you can crank the valve round to line up in an aesthetically pleasing fashion. If you over or under egg it just undo the collar to correct.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will shortly take the plunge. Not sure what you mean, exactly, regarding the backplate. Did you have to rewire anything?


----------



## DBT85 (10 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Thanks. I will shortly take the plunge. Not sure what you mean, exactly, regarding the backplate. Did you have to rewire anything?


I had to swap backplates over to the one in the box, but it is wired like for like so it was just a swap. Undo on one and do up again on the other. My old backplate followed the "standard" wiring pattern but had extra plastic (it's about 20cm wide) so the drayton unit couldn't just bolt on.

So far this evening it's worked fine. When you ask for more heat it can take a minute for the valves to whir because they only listen for instructions once a minute.

The valves themselves are also only giving an approximate temperature. The wall thermostat is reading it correctly as far as I can tell.

Usually at this time of night the whole house would have at least warm radiators as most valves were set to about 3. This evening most of the 13 are cold as they've not been required. No doubt I'll have to make some adjustments to the profiles but knowing that tonight my living room won't be heated for no good reason and tomorrow during the day the bedrooms won't be heated for no good reason is nice.

We're in a 4 bed bungalow, probably in the region of 180m2 and the controller is pretty central, all the valves connected with no issue and no need for a booster.

Still not sure about that missing wire but I'll keep an eye on it. EDIT: the missing wire is normal for my system it seems. Boiler with an unvented cylinder and 3 way valve. When hot water isn't called for the valve auto switches back to heat anyway.


----------



## John Brown (10 Nov 2021)

DBT85 said:


> I had to swap backplates over to the one in the box, but it is wired like for like so it was just a swap. Undo on one and do up again on the other. My old backplate followed the "standard" wiring pattern but had extra plastic (it's about 20cm wide) so the drayton unit couldn't just bolt on.
> 
> So far this evening it's worked fine. When you ask for more heat it can take a minute for the valves to whir because they only listen for instructions once a minute.
> 
> ...


Thanks again. We're in a house which is half several hundred year old barn, and half relatively new build. I fully expect to have to add a couple of repeater/smart sockets. The WiFi needs 5 mesh units, but I know the 433mhz stuff is a bit more robust than 2.4/5.0 gigs.


----------



## DBT85 (11 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Thanks again. We're in a house which is half several hundred year old barn, and half relatively new build. I fully expect to have to add a couple of repeater/smart sockets. The WiFi needs 5 mesh units, but I know the 433mhz stuff is a bit more robust than 2.4/5.0 gigs.


Sounds similar to myself. 200 year old original house with several extensions. The house kind of sprawls  I was convinced we'd need the boosters but it was fine. The furthest one is about 17 paces to get to (goggle maps reckons its about 11.5m in a straight line) from the unit. That's going through a 9" wall, a cavity wall and a few single skins/studs.

The good news is we were not all frozen to death in our sleep. The bedroom was actually the nicest temp I've felt in there for a while over night and this morning as its usually either too hot or too cold. What happens when its chilly af outside is another matter.

Today I shall attempt to disconnct the old thermostat.

EDIT: easy peasy for that job and all is now back up and running. I also have found this page which shows that my 5 wires for the programmer are correct, there is nothing for the "2" position. Y Plan central heating system


----------



## furnace (11 Nov 2021)

I've got a couple of Wiser repeaters that I've never used if anyone wants them?


----------



## John Brown (11 Nov 2021)

furnace said:


> I've got a couple of Wiser repeaters that I've never used if anyone wants them?


I could be interested. Not sure yet...


----------



## John Brown (12 Nov 2021)

To follow up on the Toolstation special, I eventually phone them, and a very nice man told me which stores in the country had stock. One in Truru, six in Stockport, two in Melton Mowbray, etc.
So I bought the base kit from TS for £176.38, and ordered 8 valves from Screwfix, at £40 a piece.
P.M me with a price for the repeaters, furnace, if you want to. I won't know for sure until I have time to start installing, but will almost certainly need one, at the very least.


DBT85 said:


> Sounds similar to myself. 200 year old original house with several extensions. The house kind of sprawls  I was convinced we'd need the boosters but it was fine. The furthest one is about 17 paces to get to (goggle maps reckons its about 11.5m in a straight line) from the unit. That's going through a 9" wall, a cavity wall and a few single skins/studs.
> 
> The good news is we were not all frozen to death in our sleep. The bedroom was actually the nicest temp I've felt in there for a while over night and this morning as its usually either too hot or too cold. What happens when its chilly af outside is another matter.
> 
> ...


Thanks, DBT. It's funny, I worked with electronics and micros most of my life, and have used{and drawn) hundreds of schematics, but car wiring diagrams, and stuff like that always look weird and confusing to me. I suppose I'm more used to labelled signals and stuff, rather than actually trying to draw all the interconnections. I checked the available space today, end the Wiser hub is exactly the same size as the existing Drayton programmer.


----------



## furnace (12 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> To follow up on the Toolstation special, I eventually phone them, and a very nice man told me which stores in the country had stock. One in Truru, six in Stockport, two in Melton Mowbray, etc.
> So I bought the base kit from TS for £176.38, and ordered 8 valves from Screwfix, at £40 a piece.
> P.M me with a price for the repeaters, furnace, if you want to. I won't know for sure until I have time to start installing, but will almost certainly need one, at the very least.
> 
> Thanks, DBT. It's funny, I worked with electronics and micros most of my life, and have used{and drawn) hundreds of schematics, but car wiring diagrams, and stuff like that always look weird and confusing to me. I suppose I'm more used to labelled signals and stuff, rather than actually trying to draw all the interconnections. I checked the available space today, end the Wiser hub is exactly the same size as the existing Drayton programmer.


Just let me know if you need the repeaters. Only cost would be the postage.
Cheers


----------



## John Brown (12 Nov 2021)

furnace said:


> Just let me know if you need the repeaters. Only cost would be the postage.
> Cheers


P.M. sent.


----------



## John Brown (29 Nov 2021)

Well, this is fun!
My house is half Drayton TRVs, and half Danfoss. The Wiser heads fit the Drayton, obviously. The Danfoss are the older RAVL, so the supplied adapters don't fit. So I found adapters that do fit, bit pricey, but nothing I can do about it. Just over a week after placing my order, DHL claim to have delivered them. Not to me... and none of my neighbours have seen them. The worst thing is, I seem to have bought the last six in existence...
So now half the house is wireless, the other half is worse than before, as the wireless valves can instruct the boiler to fire up at any time...whereas before the stat in the hallway had the final vote.
I guess the lesson learned is to check the TRV size before buying.


----------



## furnace (29 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> Well, this is fun!
> My house is half Drayton TRVs, and half Danfoss. The Wiser heads fit the Drayton, obviously. The Danfoss are the older RAVL, so the supplied adapters don't fit. So I found adapters that do fit, bit pricey, but nothing I can do about it. Just over a week after placing my order, DHL claim to have delivered them. Not to me... and none of my neighbours have seen them. The worst thing is, I seem to have bought the last six in existence...
> So now half the house is wireless, the other half is worse than before, as the wireless valves can instruct the boiler to fire up at any time...whereas before the stat in the hallway had the final vote.
> I guess the lesson learned is to check the TRV size before buying.


I might have some of those Danfoss adaptors. Let me check


----------



## DBT85 (29 Nov 2021)

Added a second room stat and everything is still trundling along nicely. Being able to leave the office temp at 17c and crank it up for 2 hours when I know I'm going to be in there is nice. Similarly when you know you're out later than normal and you want your bedroom to still have a bit of warmth in before you jump in the sack, being able to just extend it from the car on the way back is nice. 

The house feels warmer when we want it to be, cooler where we don't need the heat all the time and easy to adjust when we need to make a change. he main bathroom for example now only sits at 18c all day with a short 30 minute blip just before the kids bathtime. 

I'm sure some are thinking "oh well, I lived with nothing but the heat from rubbing boy scouts together", good for you. 



John Brown said:


> Well, this is fun!
> My house is half Drayton TRVs, and half Danfoss. The Wiser heads fit the Drayton, obviously. The Danfoss are the older RAVL, so the supplied adapters don't fit. So I found adapters that do fit, bit pricey, but nothing I can do about it. Just over a week after placing my order, DHL claim to have delivered them. Not to me... and none of my neighbours have seen them. The worst thing is, I seem to have bought the last six in existence...
> So now half the house is wireless, the other half is worse than before, as the wireless valves can instruct the boiler to fire up at any time...whereas before the stat in the hallway had the final vote.
> I guess the lesson learned is to check the TRV size before buying.


If you have a room stat put it in whatever room your old room stat was in and it'll just function like it used to for the rest of the house. It'll get cold and call for heat and your old TRVs will regulate it. The new smart ones will still be smart and call for heat if they need it. Just make sure you don;t have the room stat in the same room as a TRV on the app, otherwise it will override the TRV.


----------



## John Brown (29 Nov 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Added a second room stat and everything is still trundling along nicely. Being able to leave the office temp at 17c and crank it up for 2 hours when I know I'm going to be in there is nice. Similarly when you know you're out later than normal and you want your bedroom to still have a bit of warmth in before you jump in the sack, being able to just extend it from the car on the way back is nice.
> 
> The house feels warmer when we want it to be, cooler where we don't need the heat all the time and easy to adjust when we need to make a change. he main bathroom for example now only sits at 18c all day with a short 30 minute blip just before the kids bathtime.
> 
> ...


It's the reverse problem... I used to have the room stat in the hall, now it's disabled, so unless I run round and turn down all the TRVs in our side of the house, then the daughter and the grandkids can twiddle a Wiser in the night, and start the boiler, and all the rads on our side heat up.

It's only a temporary problem, with any luck. I'm keeping my fingers crossed my adapters will appear soonish. If they take too long I'll reconnect the original hallway stat.


----------



## furnace (29 Nov 2021)

furnace said:


> I might have some of those Danfoss adaptors. Let me check


Nope, sorry. They've gone.


----------



## John Brown (29 Nov 2021)

furnace said:


> Nope, sorry. They've gone.


Well thanks for looking!


----------



## DBT85 (29 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> It's the reverse problem... I used to have the room stat in the hall, now it's disabled, so unless I run round and turn down all the TRVs in our side of the house, then the daughter and the grandkids can twiddle a Wiser in the night, and start the boiler, and all the rads on our side heat up.
> 
> It's only a temporary problem, with any luck. I'm keeping my fingers crossed my adapters will appear soonish. If they take too long I'll reconnect the original hallway stat.


True, but since they are already trvs it won't go too crazy as the valve will control the temperature. Sort of. Also the boost on the rad is only for 2 hours and you can disable it if you have particularly fiddly kids. Mine doesn't know that they do anything yet, other than go grunt in the night. 

I have to say the Wiser system is good at shutting down the boiler just before you hit the desired temp meaning you get to it, rather than blowing past it and with eco mode on it'll very that depending on the outside temperature so it's like weather compensation, something that never really took off in the UK as everyone wanted radiators that were hot or would complain that the radiator wasn't on, even if they were not cold


----------



## John Brown (29 Nov 2021)

In this weather, our 28kW boiler struggles to heat the whole house. And it's not the grandkids twiddling, it's their mum. Americans... expect to be able to sit about in underwear when it's snowing outside...Thank Evans for the log burner.


----------



## Just4Fun (29 Nov 2021)

DBT85 said:


> it's like weather compensation, something that never really took off in the UK as everyone wanted radiators that were hot or would complain that the radiator wasn't on, even if they were not cold


Weather compensation makes sense. Our GSHP sets the flow temperature based on the temperature outside. Currently it is -14 celsius outside and the flow temperature is 44 celsius. The rads are warm to the touch but certainly not hot. That is OK; the house is at a comfortable temperature.


----------



## paulrbarnard (29 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> In this weather, our 28kW boiler struggles to heat the whole house. And it's not the grandkids twiddling, it's their mum. Americans... expect to be able to sit about in underwear when it's snowing outside...Thank Evans for the log burner.


I had a discussion with an American work colleague about normal room temperatures. He was convinced 25 degrees C was a normal room temperature. Normal in our house is 18 degrees for the living rooms and cooler for the bedrooms. The bedrooms have a short heat to 17 in the hour before we go to bed then off all night.


----------



## DBT85 (29 Nov 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> Weather compensation makes sense. Our GSHP sets the flow temperature based on the temperature outside. Currently it is -14 celsius outside and the flow temperature is 44 celsius. The rads are warm to the touch but certainly not hot. That is OK; the house is at a comfortable temperature.


Absolutely and its a great system, I had it on my old house but with a gas boiler. The problem is for some reason in the UK it did not take off anything like it has on the continent. People wanted radiators at 60, 70 or even 80C(!) and if the radiator was only warm, it must not be working, even if they were comfortable. 

The GSHPs we have on the farm are all for underfloor heating so just run at 31c return and so about 36c flow, though according to the metering one of those systems is running at about 1:1 at the moment, a worry as we've just been accepted to the NonDom RHI for the next 20 years and want that money!


----------

