# Knife sharpening tips



## Mr Ed (1 Feb 2009)

I need to sharpen the kitchen knives and never seem to get a very good result when sharpening knives. I should say I can achieve a brilliant edge on my chisels and plane blades but knives seem more difficult for some reason.

I have a Tormek but was too mean to buy the knife jig. I also have diamond stones etc..

Any knife sharpening experts care to spill the beans on the right way to do it?

Cheers, Ed


----------



## wizer (1 Feb 2009)

There are lots of videos on YouTube. I tried it and couldn't get the knack. It's tricky. I've seen them put a coin on the stone to act as a bevel guide. My knives did get sharper, but looked a little scrappy.


----------



## woodbloke (1 Feb 2009)

Ed - use a good quality steel and hold it handle uppermost, apply the kitchen knife to it on the _down_ stroke, ie the sharpening action is *away *from the hand holding the steel (*not* the way that Ramsey does it) You can get a lot of pressure and get a really good edge...have just done my carving knife for the roast pig tonight for T - Rob


----------



## Mr Ed (1 Feb 2009)

I'm OK with maintaining the edge with a steel once its sharp, but I find that after many times with the steel it seems to need something more to regain the edge.

We're having roast pork tonight as well - great minds think alike clearly!

Cheers, Ed


----------



## wizer (1 Feb 2009)

Steels are for honing. They need to be taken to stones to regain the edge


----------



## Jake (1 Feb 2009)

I use my diamond stones for resharpening, and the steel inbetween.


----------



## Robert (1 Feb 2009)

I remember my Dad doing this with a steel( he was a Master butcher). The steel he used was around 18 inches long, with a brass ferrule made with a diameter of an inch and a half as a guard. Held in the left hand( he was left handed) he would "steel" a knife, small boning knifes and long steak knifes, very fast with the steel pointing up and stropping towards his left hand. It never looked safe but he only cut himself on blunt knifes, usually while boning out or with a clever. That would be very messy and plasters and bandages were needed.


----------



## Anonymous (1 Feb 2009)

I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.

When they lose their edge, i strop then on a ceramic 'steel' which works a treat - I find the metal 'steels' not so good. 

For grinding, buy the Tormek jig! It works great


----------



## Harbo (1 Feb 2009)

You need one of these:

http://www.edgeproinc.com/

The Pro version will also sharpen chisels etc.

Rod


----------



## Woodmagnet (1 Feb 2009)

Robert":1dcxiqbt said:


> I remember my Dad doing this with a steel( he was a Master butcher). The steel he used was around 18 inches long, with a brass ferrule made with a diameter of an inch and a half as a guard. Held in the left hand( he was left handed) he would "steel" a knife, small boning knifes and long steak knifes, very fast with the steel pointing up and stropping towards his left hand. It never looked safe but he only cut himself on blunt knifes, usually while boning out or with a clever. That would be very messy and plasters and bandages were needed.




That's how i do it too, ex meat butcher, now wood butcher. :lol:


----------



## paulm (2 Feb 2009)

The Tormek jig is well worth getting if you already have the grinder.

These are also widely used for pocket, fixed blade and kitchen knives and very effective indeed, and highly regarded in the knife forums/community

http://www.handyniknaks.co.uk/spyderco- ... -121-p.asp

You can purchase some diamond coated rods for them for heavier/quicker reshaping before using the medium and fine stones.

I also use waterstones freehand and it's quite easy with a bit of practice, just need to keep a constant angle, diamond stones should be fine too.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## John. B (2 Feb 2009)

If you have the Tormek, Buy the jig.
I have both knife jigs, and they are worth it. i've a set of Japanese kitchen knives, and with the Tormek you can get them like razors.


----------



## Racers (2 Feb 2009)

Hi,

I do mine one 1000 grit water stone, and steel in between.

Pete


----------



## gidon (2 Feb 2009)

Ed
For day to day use I use a Trend diamond steel.
You can use with a light touch like any other steel, but you can also restore an edge using a more agressive circular motion along the length of the blade. Best grip for this is holding the steel vertically somewhere where it won't slip.
If I've let the edge get too bad I go to the diamond stones - a red 600 grit is a good place to start.
And worse than that it goes to the Tormek . The knife jig is one of the cheaper jigs if IIRC.
Cheers
Gidon


----------



## frugal (2 Feb 2009)

Tony":29yb2g85 said:


> I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.
> 
> When they lose their edge, i strop then on a ceramic 'steel' which works a treat - I find the metal 'steels' not so good.



Certain japanese knives like Global specifically state not to use a metal steel, only a ceramic one as the metal ones can damage the edge.


----------



## bugbear (2 Feb 2009)

frugal":222byumk said:


> Tony":222byumk said:
> 
> 
> > I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.
> ...



Despite having the same name, modern ceramic and diamond steels work in a completely different manner to a traditional butcher's steel.

A traditional butcher's steel works by cold forging (on a microscopic scale).

The modern ones are fine abrasives.

Global knives are very hard and brittle, and any attempt to cold forge them is doomed to failure.

BugBear


----------



## Mr Ed (2 Feb 2009)

frugal":136uqkqu said:


> Certain japanese knives like Global specifically state not to use a metal steel, only a ceramic one as the metal ones can damage the edge.



Oops, thats exactly what I've been doing to my Global knife..  

Cheers, Ed


----------



## Charlotte (3 Feb 2009)

Does anyone know how to make/where to buy a sensibly priced knife jig at 15 degrees?

I use the Global knives I bought working as a chef. As many of us used them, the kitchen had an electric water stone set up that reground them perfectly. Mine are now very dull and the kitchen shops I've asked either won't sharpen Globals or use very agricultural methods I don't trust!

I've been using scary sharp with chisels and plane irons and see no reason why it wouldn't be suitable for my knives but have so far not dared to due to the need for a jig!


----------



## Anonymous (4 Feb 2009)

frugal":m8b6pdmm said:


> Tony":m8b6pdmm said:
> 
> 
> > I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.
> ...



Interesting. I wouldn't consider a metal steel and bought my knives in a specialist cooking shop (they are seriously into knives!!) in Leicester along with the ceramic steel. I have seen Global knives and none were laminated though....

Mine are laminated knives with european style handles. These if you're interested (I have tried a few manufactureres over the yearas and these are the best so far by a large margin - balance and edge retention + sharpness):

http://www.cooks-knives.co.uk/acatalog/Tojiro_Senkou_3_Piece_Knife_Set_and_Case.html
http://www.cooks-knives.co.uk/acatalog/Tojiro_Senkou_18cm_Vegetable_Knife.html


----------



## paulm (4 Feb 2009)

Charlotte":3gkgrrdz said:


> Does anyone know how to make/where to buy a sensibly priced knife jig at 15 degrees?



Try the Spyderco Sharpmaker link posted earlier in the thread.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## bugbear (4 Feb 2009)

Tony":3nbc8kwv said:


> I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.



I don't think they have a centre layer at all - the site simply claims lots of layers, giving a damascus effect.

This is more specifically known as "pattern welded"; "True Damascus" or "Wootz" steel has different chemistry, and extraordinarily high carbon levels.

BugBear


----------



## thejhw (5 Feb 2009)

bugbear":yc1ncvra said:



> Tony":yc1ncvra said:
> 
> 
> > I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.
> ...



I don't know the Tojiro knives and wouldn't like to comment on them, although Heston seems to like them!  

I have a couple of Kai Shun knives which apparently _do_ have a centre layer
"The Shun chef’s knife series is one of the world’s most extensive knife series made of damask steel. It is well received among the cooking elite and ambitious hobby chefs. Shun professional chef’s knives are made from a newly developed stainless damask steel with 32 layers. The inner layer is made from V-gold-10 steel. This steel is highly resistant to corrosion, extremely hard (61±1 HRC, 1.0% carbon, 1.5% cobalt) and the reason for the blade being incomparably and lastingly sharp."

However I have never known why they refer to "Damask" (which I thought was a type of cloth) steel, whilst the rest of the world calls it Damascus. All I know is they're bl.. _really _sharp! :shock: 

Jim


----------



## paulm (5 Feb 2009)

thejhw":o2650wv2 said:


> I have a couple of Kai Shun knives which apparently _do_ have a centre layer
> All I know is they're bl.. _really _sharp! :shock:
> Jim



Aren't they just Jim !!!

I picked up a couple in the January Sale at a local shop (after researching various brands on the net), and am totally impressed with them, amazingly sharp and very light and well balanced to handle.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Chris Knight (5 Feb 2009)

Gentlemen of a certain age learnt how to sharpen their scout knives with a six inch blade on the nearest kerbstone. It's why my knives are always sharp. :mrgreen: 

Sadly these simple skills have been eliminated from our society today..


----------



## Anonymous (5 Feb 2009)

bugbear":gznkqjnh said:


> Tony":gznkqjnh said:
> 
> 
> > I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.
> ...



The damascus centre layer and clearly visible on the knife itself - documentation with the set describes the manaufactring and states that it is damascus steel.
They stay sharper than any other knife I have owned (Japanese or european) including my German Wustoffs X50 Cr Mo V15


----------



## Jake (5 Feb 2009)

It looks like VG-10 is the center layer, like many of the top-end Japanese knives.


----------



## bugbear (6 Feb 2009)

Tony":2g5iyndi said:


> ...states that it is damascus steel.



I have no doubt.

The trouble is, "damascus steel" has two distinct meanings, both commonly used.

But since you're happy with the performance, this all seems unimportant.

BugBear


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2009)

bugbear":1i8bz0w3 said:


> But since you're happy with the performance, this all seems unimportant.
> 
> BugBear



True, but you've gotten me interested and intrigued now BB :lol: and part of the reason i bought them is becasue of the history of damascus steel and japanese steel and blade expertise

I don't think they are VG-10 (link says this is stainless steel) as they are not stainless and do/will rust/tarnish if my _wife leaves them wet _ on the kitchen counter :shock:


----------



## Jake (6 Feb 2009)

Could be - the knife world is even more full of semi-mystical navel-gazing than woodworking.

But a reference for eg http://www.zenimports.com.au/toj_1.html (and there are loads of others in a similar vein).

I don't think it is a very stainless stainless.

Reputedly, the blades are the same as in this series (where you can see they call it "stain resistant"):

http://nipponkitchen.com/acatalog/DP_Damascus.html


----------



## bugbear (6 Feb 2009)

Tony":m60hpc9q said:


> bugbear":m60hpc9q said:
> 
> 
> > But since you're happy with the performance, this all seems unimportant.
> ...



OK, now you've made me do work!

The detailed description here is rather carefully worded:

http://www.tojiro.co.uk/damascus.shtml

Leaving aside the eloquent allusions to the history of both Damascus steel and Japanese blade making (which tell us nothing about the knife) it appears to describe a separate hard core, with multiple layers of stainless steel on either side.

So I think what's going on is really a triple lamination (soft-hard-soft), where the soft layers _are themselves laminated_. This fits nicely with your photo, where the centre layer (which makes the cutting edge) appears a good deal thicker than the layers that make the Damascus pattern.

I would suspect that the Damascus steel is made separately, either by repeated folding, or more likely, a simpler rolling process, and then the blade is made by laminating this fine-layered-material on both sides of the hard centre.

Ah - more info:

http://www.armorica.co.uk/Tojiro__Knive ... Knives/209

this confirms the VG-10 core:

BugBear


----------



## gidon (6 Feb 2009)

Here you go Ed :
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... DFO,10T2,1
(20% off for one week only)
Cheers
Gidon


----------



## Jake (6 Feb 2009)

Oh yes, back on topic:

this is about the same way I do it but with diamond stones (steel in between for western blades):

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen.html

Really don't see the need to hack at a kitchen knife with a grinder, even if it is a Tormek - that seems a bit like using a garden shredder to peel potatoes, but maybe I'm a little too precious about them.


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2009)

bugbear":3lh85vzb said:


> OK, now you've made me do work!
> 
> The detailed description here is rather carefully worded:
> 
> ...



Nice work BB!!  

I phoned their UK office earlier and the people working there have no idea what so ever about materials that _their_ product uses :roll: 

The link was useful - although there are 63 layers, not 62 :wink: :lol:


----------



## bugbear (6 Feb 2009)

Tony":1d5blhf9 said:


> I phoned their UK office earlier and the people working there have no idea what so ever about materials that _their_ product uses :roll:



Google is my friend 

BugBear


----------



## Jake (6 Feb 2009)

It's exactly what they do - the two outer layers are themselves layered up from the multiple hard and soft stainless layers, sandwiched around the VG-10 core, forged (a lot) and then when the knife is finished the sides are etched a bit to highlight the 'suminogashi' pattern.


----------



## Harbo (6 Feb 2009)

I have a few hand made knives by Shinichi Watanabe which I bought a few years ago when he was using only the traditional knife materials (inc. a Kuouchi Kakkiri in Damascus Blue Steel).

For his more expensive ranges, he now seems to use the V-Gold W steels and a Damascus steel from Damasteel in Sweden.

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/special/damascuschefknife.htm

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/special/damascusknife.htm

Interesting set of photos showing the knives being made and a bit about the layering - scroll down for the photos:

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/index.htm

I have tried all sorts of ways to sharpen, but the best way to get consistent results with the minimum of wasted steel is the Edge Pro system.
His cheap range is also very good - I let the rest of the family use them!

Rod


----------



## Jake (6 Feb 2009)

Harbo":2zvxjx2f said:


> I have a few hand made knives by Shinichi Watanabe which I bought a few years ago when he was using only the traditional knife materials (inc. a Kuouchi Kakkiri in Damascus Blue Steel).



He still does the blue and white steel ones - there are different pages (and prices!) on his site. edit: ignore me - I missed your reference to his 'cheap range'!



> edge-pro



I've got one too - I kind of get on with it as a 'steel' for touch-ups with the white stones in, but not entirely as a sharpening system. I think that's probably my fault though, but I prefer going to the flat diamond and ceramic bench stones.


----------



## thejhw (9 Feb 2009)

Tony":1zbx69rm said:


> [_wife leaves them wet _ on the kitchen counter :shock:



You let your _wife _use them? :shock: 

_My _wife has her very own set of Sabatier knives I bought for her from Bookers. :wink: I keep them sharp for her, but let her use my knives? :evil: 
Jim


----------



## Anonymous (9 Feb 2009)

thejhw":1zlmjr7c said:


> Tony":1zlmjr7c said:
> 
> 
> > [_wife leaves them wet _ on the kitchen counter :shock:
> ...




:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Wife and daughter - they are just knives even if a touch expensive :wink: (and I have warned them both about how sharp they are!!)


----------



## bugbear (10 Feb 2009)

Hmm. Personally I've got a few James Martin Stellar Sabatier.

I love Stellar stuff, because it's more or less well made, and almost always on sale at half price.

The 8" Cooks Knife was 12 quid!

After a brief talking to on my sharpening stones, it cuts nicely, balances OK, and touch up sharpening with a butcher's steel means I only have to go back to the stone every coupla' months.

I'm not strongly motivated to seek out "magic" knives at super high prices; I have little doubt that some of them are very good indeed, with production costs honestly reflected in their high retail cost, but I just don't have a problem to which they are the solution.

We're only cutting meat, fish 'n' veg!

I feel roughly the same about the current vogue for "super" marking knives. While quality-for-quality's sake is fine (I adore the elaborate trammels that pattern makers used to make), again, I feel that marking out is not a task with difficult functional requirments.

BugBear


----------



## Anonymous (10 Feb 2009)

BB

I agree with you up to a point. I bought my knives because of the Japanese tool making traditions and the beautiful balance and Damascus pattern - didn't know until this thread that anyone else did or that it was 'in vogue' to be honest. I often nip into the professional cook shop in town which is owned by a couple of 'knife anhoraks'  and they kept promising to get some in stock until one day........

I have had a few Sabatiers and they were really pretty poor (there are loads of Sabatier factories, each owned by different members of the family which split up several years ago) and didn't stay sharp for long.

The Jap knives just take a sharper edge and then stay sharp for ages and a sharp knife makes the job easier and safer - they are quite a pleasure to use


----------



## Harbo (11 Feb 2009)

BB 

I have to agree with Tony here - I have a few Sabatiers which are rubbish and a couple of older types which keep a good edge but sadly rust/tarnish at a drop of a hat!

Good knives are like good tools - compare a new Stanley iron to a LN/Veritas/Hock etc. - they make cutting so much easier. And a sharp blade is so much safer than a blunt one  
When I do any cooking or carving at relatives homes I always regret not having brought some decent knives with me?
My wife will not eat any fat, grizzle etc (she should be a Vege?) so every piece has to be cut off - impossible with a cheap knife.

Rod


----------



## John. B (11 Feb 2009)

I think you'll find the word 'Damascus' refers to the pattern on the tool as in these Japanese chisels.






From the Arabic, 'Damask' A figured fabric of silk, wool, linen, cotton, or synthetic fibers, with a pattern formed by weaving.
As in these examples of cloth






John. B


----------



## bugbear (11 Feb 2009)

John. B":29wtgbx4 said:


> I think you'll find the word 'Damascus' refers to the pattern on the tool as in these Japanese chisels.



Indeed. but there are several different metal working processes that can give rise to such patterns.

BugBear


----------



## bugbear (11 Feb 2009)

Harbo":27ppdkb0 said:


> My wife will not eat any fat, grizzle etc (she should be a Vege?) so every piece has to be cut off - impossible with a cheap knife.
> 
> Rod



Well, I'll agree that a 2 quid, stamped-out-of-stainless-sheet knife will struggle, but most any knife 10 quid and up should be fine for your task, once sharpened.

BugBear


----------



## Jake (11 Feb 2009)

John. B":1g4vo4c7 said:


> I think you'll find the word 'Damascus' refers to the pattern on the tool as in these Japanese chisels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Japanese term isn't actually damascus, but suminagashi - which is also the term for paper marbling (like that used for the linings of trad hardback book covers).


----------



## Drea (12 Feb 2009)

This might sound heretical, but I use one of these. Takes about 10 seconds once a week and my knives are shaving sharp. Impossible to get it wrong too.

Just as an experiment, I ran an old butter knife through it and it cut a ripe tomato when I was finished. :shock:


----------



## andyavast (12 Feb 2009)

I bought a minosharp for my girlfriend who has Global knives, very easy to use and control and delivers an extremely sharp edge within a few strokes. 

Andy


----------



## swagman (12 Feb 2009)

waterhead37":3idlphe8 said:


> Gentlemen of a certain age learnt how to sharpen their scout knives with a six inch blade on the nearest kerbstone. It's why my knives are always sharp. :mrgreen:
> 
> Sadly these simple skills have been eliminated from our society today..




I'm with Waterhead.

It would seem to me that when ever the topic gets around to sharpening, whether it be plane blades, or in this case knives, we seem to get so wrapped up in getting the right jigs, or starting with 1 stone, and finishing with another, we tend to forget the basic principle of sharpening.

Get a flat stone, use a firm grip, and if takes more than 2 minutes to resharpen, your stuffing about too much.

The old tradesmen would be turning in their grave with all this nonsense talk.



swagman. :x


----------



## frugal (12 Feb 2009)

Drea":yyk6nlk7 said:


> This might sound heretical, but I use one of these. Takes about 10 seconds once a week and my knives are shaving sharp. Impossible to get it wrong too.
> 
> Just as an experiment, I ran an old butter knife through it and it cut a ripe tomato when I was finished. :shock:



I was given one as a present to sharpen my Global knives. I liked it so much that I bought one for my dad.


----------



## bugbear (13 Feb 2009)

swagman":3lwamibw said:


> The old tradesmen would be turning in their grave with all this nonsense talk.



I'm not so sure; I've read many old books and journals, and sharpening has always been a topic of conversation and debate, and not a little mysticism.

BugBear


----------



## jlawrence (15 Feb 2009)

Waterhead, Swagman.
Those were the days.
I used to be able to get a V sharp edge on practically any knife just using the a curb stone in the garden and a strop just to tidy it up.
Nowadays that just simply doesn't seem to work for me. I don't know if it's down to me (having just lost the art of how) or down to developments in the materials they use for the knifes but I certainly rarely get a good edge from a stone alone.


----------



## Charlotte (15 Feb 2009)

Drea, Andy, thanks for that - looks like a manual version of what I used to use - will order one!


----------

